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 archive-name: atheism/resources alt-atheism-archive-name: resources last-modified: 11 december 1992 version: 1.0 atheist resources addresses of atheist organizations freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation in the us. write to: ffrf, p.o. box 750, madison, wi 53701. telephone: (608) 256-8900 evolution designs evolution designs sell the "darwin fish". it's a fish symbol, like the ones christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "darwin" written inside. the deluxe moulded 3d plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the us. write to: evolution designs, 7119 laurel canyon #4, north hollywood, ca 91605. people in the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold -- try mailing <figmo@netcom.com>. for net people who go to lynn directly, the price is $4.95 per fish. american atheist press aap publish various atheist books -- critiques of the bible, lists of biblical contradictions, and so on. one such book is: "the bible handbook" by w.p. ball and g.w. foote. american atheist press. 372 pp. isbn 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986. bible contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains ball, foote: "the bible contradicts itself", aap. based on the king james version of the bible. write to: american atheist press, p.o. box 140195, austin, tx 78714-0195. or: 7215 cameron road, austin, tx 78752-2973. telephone: (512) 458-1244 fax: (512) 467-9525 prometheus books sell books including haught's "holy horrors" (see below). write to: 700 east amherst street, buffalo, new york 14215. telephone: (716) 837-2475. an alternate address (which may be newer or older) is: prometheus books, 59 glenn drive, buffalo, ny 14228-2197. african-americans for humanism an organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of black freethought. they publish a quarterly newsletter, aah examiner. write to: norm r. allen, jr., african americans for humanism, p.o. box 664, buffalo, ny 14226. united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society 88 islington high street 702 holloway road london n1 8ew london n19 3nl 071 226 7251 071 272 1266 british humanist association south place ethical society 14 lamb's conduit passage conway hall london wc1r 4rh red lion square 071 430 0908 london wc1r 4rl fax 071 430 1271 071 831 7723 the national secular society publish "the freethinker", a monthly magazine founded in 1881. ibka e.v. internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach 880, d-1000 berlin 41. germany. ibka publish a journal: miz. (materialien und informationen zur zeit. politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten. hrsg. ibka e.v.) miz-vertrieb, postfach 880, d-1000 berlin 41. germany. for atheist books, write to: ibdk, internationaler b"ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach 3005, d-3000 hannover 1. germany. telephone: 0511/211216 books -- fiction thomas m. disch "the santa claus compromise" short story. the ultimate proof that santa exists. all characters and events are fictitious. any similarity to living or dead gods -- uh, well... walter m. miller, jr "a canticle for leibowitz" one gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from "saint leibowitz", filling the sheets of paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters. edgar pangborn "davy" post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states. the church, for example, forbids that anyone "produce, describe or use any substance containing... atoms". philip k. dick philip k. dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought-provoking short stories and novels. his stories are bizarre at times, but very approachable. he wrote mainly sf, but he wrote about people, truth and religion rather than technology. although he often believed that he had met some sort of god, he remained sceptical. amongst his novels, the following are of some relevance: "galactic pot-healer" a fallible alien deity summons a group of earth craftsmen and women to a remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans. when the deity begins to demand faith from the earthers, pot-healer joe fernwright is unable to comply. a polished, ironic and amusing novel. "a maze of death" noteworthy for its description of a technology-based religion. "valis" the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of gnostic christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of unknown but possibly divine origin. he is accompanied by his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters. "the divine invasion" god invades earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from another star system. unfortunately she is terminally ill, and must be assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24-hour easy listening music. margaret atwood "the handmaid's tale" a story based on the premise that the us congress is mysteriously assassinated, and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it "right" again. the book is the diary of a woman's life as she tries to live under the new christian theocracy. women's right to own property is revoked, and their bank accounts are closed; sinful luxuries are outlawed, and the radio is only used for readings from the bible. crimes are punished retroactively: doctors who performed legal abortions in the "old world" are hunted down and hanged. atwood's writing style is difficult to get used to at first, but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on. various authors "the bible" this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized. however, it is probably worth reading, if only so that you'll know what all the fuss is about. it exists in many different versions, so make sure you get the one true version. books -- non-fiction peter de rosa "vicars of christ", bantam press, 1988 although de rosa seems to be christian or even catholic this is a very enlighting history of papal immoralities, adulteries, fallacies etc. (german translation: "gottes erste diener. die dunkle seite des papsttums", droemer-knaur, 1989) michael martin "atheism: a philosophical justification", temple university press, philadelphia, usa. a detailed and scholarly justification of atheism. contains an outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage in this (necessarily) tendentious area. argues both for "negative atheism" (i.e. the "non-belief in the existence of god(s)") and also for "positive atheism" ("the belief in the non-existence of god(s)"). includes great refutations of the most challenging arguments for god; particular attention is paid to refuting contempory theists such as platinga and swinburne. 541 pages. isbn 0-87722-642-3 (hardcover; paperback also available) "the case against christianity", temple university press a comprehensive critique of christianity, in which he considers the best contemporary defences of christianity and (ultimately) demonstrates that they are unsupportable and/or incoherent. 273 pages. isbn 0-87722-767-5 james turner "without god, without creed", the johns hopkins university press, baltimore, md, usa subtitled "the origins of unbelief in america". examines the way in which unbelief (whether agnostic or atheistic) became a mainstream alternative world-view. focusses on the period 1770-1900, and while considering france and britain the emphasis is on american, and particularly new england developments. "neither a religious history of secularization or atheism, without god, without creed is, rather, the intellectual history of the fate of a single idea, the belief that god exists." 316 pages. isbn (hardcover) 0-8018-2494-x (paper) 0-8018-3407-4 george seldes (editor) "the great thoughts", ballantine books, new york, usa a "dictionary of quotations" of a different kind, concentrating on statements and writings which, explicitly or implicitly, present the person's philosophy and world-view. includes obscure (and often suppressed) opinions from many people. for some popular observations, traces the way in which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries. quite a number of the quotations are derived from cardiff's "what great men think of religion" and noyes' "views of religion". 490 pages. isbn (paper) 0-345-29887-x. richard swinburne "the existence of god (revised edition)", clarendon paperbacks, oxford this book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with "the coherence of theism" (1977) and was concluded with "faith and reason" (1981). in this work, swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the existence of god. his arguments, which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation of late 20th century western christian values and aesthetics to a god which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived, were decisively rejected in mackie's "the miracle of theism". in the revised edition of "the existence of god", swinburne includes an appendix in which he makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut mackie. j. l. mackie "the miracle of theism", oxford this (posthumous) volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal arguments for and against the existence of god. it ranges from the classical philosophical positions of descartes, anselm, berkeley, hume et al, through the moral arguments of newman, kant and sidgwick, to the recent restatements of the classical theses by plantinga and swinburne. it also addresses those positions which push the concept of god beyond the realm of the rational, such as those of kierkegaard, kung and philips, as well as "replacements for god" such as lelie's axiarchism. the book is a delight to read - less formalistic and better written than martin's works, and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand-waving of swinburne. james a. haught "holy horrors: an illustrated history of religious murder and madness", prometheus books looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day -- and not only by christians. library of congress catalog card number 89-64079. 1990. norm r. allen, jr. "african american humanism: an anthology" see the listing for african americans for humanism above. gordon stein "an anthology of atheism and rationalism", prometheus books an anthology covering a wide range of subjects, including 'the devil, evil and morality' and 'the history of freethought'. comprehensive bibliography. edmund d. cohen "the mind of the bible-believer", prometheus books a study of why people become christian fundamentalists, and what effect it has on them. net resources there's a small mail-based archive server at mantis.co.uk which carries archives of old alt.atheism.moderated articles and assorted other files. for more information, send mail to archive-server@mantis.co.uk saying send atheism/index and it will mail back a reply. ÿ 
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 recently, ras have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _the soul scroll: thoughts on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom stall doors. (at my school, the university of new hampshire) it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus. it poses a question about 'spirituality' each issue, and solicits responses to be included in the next 'issue.' it's all pretty vague. i assume it's put out by a christian, but they're very careful not to mention jesus or the bible. i've heard someone defend it, saying "well it doesn't support any one religion. " so what??? this is a state university, and as a strong supporter of the separation of church and state, i was enraged. what can i do about this? it sounds to me like it's just screaming out for parody. give a copy to your friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher; with luck, he'll run it through the mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut-bustingly funny parody you can paste over the originals. i can see it now: the stool scroll thoughts on religion, spirituality, and matters of the colon (you can use this text to wipe) 
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 |> [1] however, i hate economic terrorism and political correctness |> worse than i hate this policy. |> [2] a more effective approach is to stop donating |> to any organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues |> until they end the boycott on funding of scouts. can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]? rob strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641 ibm research, 30 saw mill river road, p.o. box 704, yorktown heights, ny 10598 
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 didn't you say lucifer was created with a perfect nature? define perfect then. i think you are playing the usual game here, make sweeping statements like omni-, holy, or perfect, and don't note that they mean exactly what they say. and that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to i'm not trying to play games here. but i understand how it might seem that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point of view such as atheism. take your foot out of your mouth, i wondered about that already when i was a catholic christian. the fact that the contradiction is unresolvable is one of the reasons why i am an atheist. believe me, i believed similar sentences for a long time. but that shows the power of religion and not anything about its claims. now god could have prevented lucifer's fall by taking away his ability to choose between moral alternatives (worship god or worship himself), but that would mean that god was in error to have make lucifer or any being with free will in the first place. exactly. god allows evil, an evil if there ever was one. now that's an opinion, or at best a premise. but from my point of view, it is not a premise which is necessary true, specifically, that it is an evil to allow evil to occur. it follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used. letting evil happen or allowing evil to take place, in this place even causing evil, is another evil. but could you give a definition of free will? especially in the presence of an omniscient being? "will" is "self-determination". in other words, god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god. all "will", therefore, is "free will". the omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even before the omnipotent has created them. there is no choice left. all is known, the course of events is fixed. not even for the omniscient itself, to extend an argument by james tims. if god is omniscient, then clearly, creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than the emergence of ungodliness (evil/sin) since he created them knowing the outcome in advance. why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it will happen? why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of doing good or not doing good, but that does not necessarily imply doing evil. it is logically possible, but your god has not done it. i do not know that such is logically possible. if god restrains a free being's choice to choose to do evil and simply do "not good", then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice? and if "good" is defined as loving and obeying god, and avoiding those behaviors which god prohibits, then how can you say that one who is "not good" is not evil as well? like i said, i am not sure that doing "not good" without doing evil is logically possible. and when i am not omnipotent, how can i have free will? you have said something about choices and the scenario gives them. therefore we have what you define as free will. imagine the following. i can do good to other beings, but i cannot harm them. easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good deeds, but don't make them long for them, so they can not feel the absence of good as evil. but whose case am i arguing? it is conceivable, so the omnipotent can do it. or it would not be omnipotent. if you want logically consistent as well, you have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first. (deletion) perhaps it is weak, in a way. if i were just speculating about the ubiquitous pink unicorns, then there would be no basis for such speculation. but this idea of god didn't just fall on me out of the blue :), or while reading science fiction or fantasy. (i know that some will disagree) :) the bible describes a god who is omniscient, and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice, from which the definitional logic follows. but that's not all there is to it. there seems to be (at least in my mind) a certain amount of evidence which indicates that god exists and that the biblical description of him may be a fair one. it is that evidence which bolsters the argument in my view. that the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys the credibility of the bible, nothing less. and a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god, unfortunately, there can't be any with these definitions. 
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 the motto originated in the star-spangled banner. tell me that this has something to do with atheists. the motto _on_coins_ originated as a mccarthyite smear which equated atheism with communism and called both unamerican. no it didn't. the motto has been on various coins since the civil war. it was just required to be on *all* currency in the 50's. 
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 when they are victimized they are muslims. when they victimize others they are not true muslims (tm) or no muslims at all. quite annoying. i don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says "i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god" that, so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one _must_ be considered muslim by all muslims. so the phenomenon you're attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles. if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts. it was no criticism of islam for a change, it was a criticism of the arguments used. namely, whenever people you identify as muslims are the victims of the attacks of others, they are used an argument for the bad situation of muslims. but whenever deeds by muslim that victimize others are named, they do not count as an argument because what these people did was not done as a true muslims. no mention is made how muslims are the cause of a bad situation of another party. double standards. 
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 (reference line trimmed) there is a good deal more confusion here. you started off with the assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit here, you finished up with a recursive definition. murder is "objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality. now you have switch targets a little, but only a little. now you are asking what is the "goal"? what do you mean by "goal?". are you suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere, and we form our morals to achieve it? well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and propogation of the species. another example of a moral system is presented within the declaration of independence, which states that we should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. you see, to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system. that is, we shall be moral unto what end? murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule. and, i thought i had defined murder as an intentional killing of a non-murderer, against his will. and you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not. i fail to see what this has to do with anything. i never claimed that our system of morality was an objective one. i thought that was your very first claim. that there was some kind of "objective" morality, and that an example of that was that murder is wrong. if you don't want to claim that any more, that's fine. well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most every moral system. however, i am not assuming that our current system and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral. i think that it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect. and by the way, you don't seem to understand the difference between "arbitrary" and "objective". if keith schneider "defines" murder to be this that and the other, that's arbitrary. jon livesey may still say "well, according to my personal system of morality, all killing of humans against their will is murder, and wrong, and what the legal definition of murder may be in the usa, kuweit, saudi arabia, or the prc may be matters not a whit to me". well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning. 
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 but, you don't know that capital punishment is wrong, so it isn't the same as shooting. a better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car, realizing that sooner or later, someone is going to be killed in an automobile accident. you *know* people get killed as a result of driving, yet you continue to do it anyway. uh uh. you do not know that you will be the one to do the killing. i'm not sure i'd drive a car if i had sufficient evidence to conclude that i would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime. yes, and everyone thinks as you do. no one thinks that he is going to cause or be involved in a fatal accident, but the likelihood is surprisingly high. just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting blanks does not mean that you are less guilty. i don't know about jon, but i say *all* taking of human life is murder. and i say murder is wrong in all but one situation: when it is the only action that will prevent another murder, either of myself or another. you mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation? and, you should note that that situation will never occur. there are always other options thank killing. why don't you just say that all killing is wrong. this is basically what you are saying. i'm getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments. are you attempting to be condescending? that the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection. is your personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach? you sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, so fuck the few. but, most people have found the risk to be acceptable. you are probably much more likely to die in a plane crash, or even using an electric blender, than you are to be executed as an innocent. i personally think that the risk is acceptable, but in an ideal moral system, no such risk is acceptable. "acceptable" is the fudge factor necessary in such an approximation to the ideal. 
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 by maintaining classes d and e, even in prison, it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error. i answer from the position that we would indeed place these people in prison for life. that depends not only on their predisposition towards murder, but also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability to commit the same crimes again. in other words, if lifetime imprisonment doesn't work, perhaps it's not because we're not executing these people, but because we're not being careful enough about how we lock them up. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 i propose that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it. damn right you can't provide any evidence for it. rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a simple premise. if they were, psychology would be a hard science with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics. your premise may well be right. it is much more likely, however, that it reflects your socialization and religious background, as well as your need to validate your religious beliefs. were i to pretend to have all the answers (and i don't), i would say that the xenophobia, guilt, and intolerance brought about by adherence to fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing the members of our society. your mileage obviously varies. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 dan johnson- you don't know me, but take this hand anyway. bravo for go(ds) = 0. beautiful! simply beautiful! -jim halat 
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 if this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim, then why can't he terminate eternity? for the same reason he can't flibble glop ork groink. the thing you are demanding that he must be able to do, has no meaning in its own terms. this is a classic example of excessive faith in reason. the fact that we have trouble talking about something doesn't imply that it is impossible; it simply implies that it is hard to talk about. there is a very good chance that god *can* flibble glop ork groink. charlie wingate can flibble glop ork groink, and he isn't even god. doug graham dgraham@bnr.ca my opinions are my own. 
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 much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself, this is probably the wrong group for it. the only relevance here is that you don't seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment actually is, and when it is murder. that is, when you tell us murder is wrong, you are using a term you have not yet defined. well, i've said that when an innocent person has been executed, this is objectively a murder. however, who is at blame is another question. it seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions-- realizing the risks--is to blame. there is a *probability* of killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air, and there is a *probability* of killing an innocent person when the state administers a system of capital punishment. so when you do either, you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or later result in the killing of an innocent person. yes, but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing any raondom activity. presumably, you had not isolated yourself totally from the rest of society because of this. and, driving will kill people, as will airlines, but people continue to do driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling prisoners by courts. they are risks that we take upon ourselves and i argue that our law system is a similar risk. perhaps an innocent person will be punished someday, but we work to prevent this. in fact, many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment of innocents. if our own driving kills someone else, then sure, there is a moral issue. i know at least one person who was involved in a fatal accident, and they felt vey guilty afterwards. but, such accidents are to be totally expected, given the numner of vehicals on the road. again, the blame is on society. no i'm not. this is what you said. you were saying that if there were such a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed , it would still be the fault of the state, since it did the actual killing. no, i just commented that the state does the killing. it does not depend on there being false witnesses. how could it? the state does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes yes, but the state is not at fault in such a case. the state can only do so much to prevent false witnesses. it is possible. so, what are you trying to say, that capital punishment is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating the system? i'm saying capital punishment is murder, period. not because of this that and the other, but because it involves taking human life. that's *my* definition of murder. i make no appeals to dictionaries or to "objective" morals. okay, so this is what you call murder. but, the question is whether or not all such "murders" are wrong. are you saying that all taking of human life is wrong, no matter what the circumstances? if we, as a society, decide to murder someone, then we should say that, and lists our reasons for doing so, and live with the moral consequences. we should not play word games and pretend that murder isn't murder. and that's *my* opinion about how society ought to be run. but, this is basically how it works. society accepts the risk that an innocent person will be murdered by execution. and, every member of society shares this blame. and, most people's definitions of murder include some sort of malicious intent, which is not involved in an execution, is it? but, we were trying to discuss an objective moral system, or at least its possibilty. what ramifications does your personal system have on an objective one? no, we were not discussing an objective moral system. i was showing you that you didn't have one, because, for one thing, you were incapable of defining the terms in it, for example, "murder". murder violates the golden rule. executions do not, because by allowing it at all, society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the innocent victim is. we're not talking about reading minds, we are just talking about knowing the truth. yes, we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth, but the court systems work on a principle of knowing the "truth" "beyond a reasonable doubt." sorry, but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately. here is what you said: "and, since we are looking totally objectively at this case, then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to execute the person or not. if the intent is malicious and unfair, then the execution would be murder." what you are doing now is to slide into another claim, which is quite different. the jury being *persuaded* beyond a serious doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond a serious doubt. reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction was moral or not. but, in an objective system, only the absolute truth matters, and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth. that is, twelve members must be convinced of a truth. moreover, a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence that you and i would laugh at. but then, if we read the minds of these people, we would know that the conviction was unfair. but, would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds? if we assume that it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth, why is it so much less fair, in your opinion, if we only have a good approximation of the absolute it's not a question of fairness. your claim, which i have quoted above is a claim about whether we can *know* it was fair, so as to be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder. yes, while we could objectively determine the difference (if we knew all possible information), we can't always determine the difference in our flawed system. i think that our system is almost as good as possible, but it still isn't objectively perfect. you see, it doesn't matter if we *know* it is fair or not. objectively, it is either fair or it is not. now there's a huge difference. if we can read minds, we can know, and if we cannot read minds, we can know nothing. the difference is not in degree of fairness, but in what we can know. but what we know has no effect on an objective system. i think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system, if we are clear on which goals it is supposed to promote. i'm not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that i am pretty sure does not exist. why are you so sure? i simply want people to confront reality. *my* reality, remember. why is *your* reality important? in this case, the reality is that, "ideal theories' apart, we can never know, even after the fact, about the fairness of the justice system. for every innocent person released from death row, there may have been a dozen innocent people executed, or a hundred, or none at all. we simply don't know. but, we can assume that the system is fairly decent, at least most likely. and, you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a totally ideal and objective system. now what are we going to do? on the one hand, we can pretend that we have an 'ideal' theory, and that we can know things we can never know, and the justie system is fair, and that we can wave a magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder, and go on our way. well, we can have an ideal system, but the working system can not be ideal. we can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to the ideal system as possible. on the other hand, we can recognize that all justice has a small - we hope - probability of punishing the innocent, and that in the end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic consequences of the systems we set up, and then say, "well, here we go, murdering again." maybe some of us will even say "gee, i wonder if all this is strictly necessary?" yes, we all bear the responsibility. most people seem willing to do this. i think that the second is preferable in that if requires people to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society, instead of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word we must realize the consequences of all our actions. why do you keep separating the justice system from the pack? and lest i forget, i also don't think we have an objective moral system, and i believe i only have to take that idea seriously when someone presents evidence of it. i don't think our country has an objective system, but i think such an objective system can exist, in theory. without omniscience, an objective system is not possible in practice. 
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 now along comes mr keith schneider and says "here is an "objective moral system". and then i start to ask him about the definitions that this "objective" system depends on, and, predictably, the whole thing falls apart. it only falls apart if you attempt to apply it. this doesn't mean that an objective system can't exist. it just means that one cannot be 
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 recently, ras have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _the soul scroll: thoughts on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom stall doors. (at my school, the university of new hampshire) it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus. [most of post deleted] please respond as soon as possible. i'd like these religious postings to stop, now! there is an easy way out.... post the flyers on the stall doors, but add at the bottom, in nice large emergency toilet paper ------ robert mellish, fog, ic, uk ------ email: r.mellish@ic.ac.uk net: rm03@sg1.cc.ic.ac.uk irc: hobnob ------ and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work. ------ 
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 there was a funny ad in usatoday from "american family association". i'll post a few choice parts for your enjoyment (all emphases is in the ad; i'm not adding anything). all the typos are mine. :) [dan's article deleted] i found the same add in our local sunday newspaper. the add was placed in the ..... cartoon section! the perfect place for it ! :-) y.k. 
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 my claim is that a person that committs a crime doesn't believe in god, for the moment that the crime is committed, at least, whether they are originally believers or not. to believe is to do good. your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism. and doubtless, when an atheist does an act of charity they temporarily become a baptist. 
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 i propose that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it. i pondered it for all of ten seconds when i realised that since we don't have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity, and since the whole issue of "depression" isn't at all well defined for earlier centuries, you are probably talking crap. of course, you could pull a mozumder on us, and say that people who are having sex outside marriage are *defined* to be depressed. i can't say i'd ever noticed, myself. 
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 now can we please use rec.scouting for the purpose for which it was established? clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their anti-societal political views. ok, this is the only thing i will comment on from stan at this time... part of this forum we call rec.scouting is for policy discussions and related topics. this is a policy discussion, and involves related topics. this is not a "fringe" group discussion. obviously, it engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand. wether a particular view is anti-societal or not is your opinion, and yours alone, don't try to make it seem otherwise. if you do not wish to engage in this discussion, use a kill file. if you wish to continue in this discussion, please do so, knowing full well the implications that apply. i know for myself that i plan on continuing with the discussion when i have the wish to have input. i for one am tired of people trying to say that this is not a matter significant for this group! it is, and quite so. especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely. * dominick v. zurlo * "if the world's an * * www * oyster, why am i * * eagle scout '87 * allergic to mollusks?" * * blacklisted '88 * * 
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 as for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist? not so. if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you blame the tiger? 
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 a new alternative to scouting for those "unacceptable to bsa" for reasons of religious or sexual preference: "birth announcement" on march 7, 1993, from earth forum, compuserve information service formal announcement (sm) a new youth movement,"enviroleague," was recently born, according to its founder, boyd r. critz, iii (cis id# 71611,365), of peoria, illinois. enviroleague exists for the education of youth, both male and female, in matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our incorporated as an illinois not-for-profit corporation, its articles and initial applications for a service mark have now been filed. according to critz, its draft bylaws contain the following statement of mission and objectives: it is the mission of enviroleague and its adult members to foster and implement the improved education of young people in the need to conduct their lives as stewards of the earth, to leave the earth in a better condition than they found it, and to otherwise act as responsible, moral and ethical users of their environment. to pursue the accomplishment of this mission, enviroleague shall seek to serve as a catalyst, focusing in common cause the separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation, improvement, and responsible use of the environment in which we must all live. in pursuit of the mission of enviroleague, its primary objectives shall be: (1) to establish a movement involving as many environmentally concerned organizations as possible, said movement having as its primary focus the education and participatory involvement of young people in appropriate areas of environmental concern; (2) to develop and provide to such organizations and their branches a full complement of program materials for their use, including suitable uniforms, insignia and other badges, written ideas, syllabi and information, literature and other items as shall seem appropriate and desirable; (3) to serve as a "clearing house" for the exchange of program ideas, materials and information among said organizations; and (4) to assist environmentally concerned organizations to recruit and train the necessary adult leadership for their youth programs. enviroleague will operate through three "program divisions" serving youth in the elementary, middle and high school grades, respectively. service shall be through formation of "enviroleague teams," either by enviroleague itself or by environmentally conscious organizations (or their local branches) wishing a charter to use programs developed by enviroleague. enviroleague, as it develops, will be controlled by the actual adult leaders of each local team, and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper conduct. organizations accepting a charter may, however, impose certain additional standards for their own use of the program material. should such organizations do so, enviroleague will commit itself to forming, as soon as possible, new nearby teams having no such restrictions, particularly as to youth membership. enviroleague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to contribute to developing its programs. thus, the top youth leaders of its teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any local administrative groups, and those for its high school youth may be involved in similar functions at the national level. program materials are in development at this time. copies of the "draft" portions of the mentor's manual (manual for adult leadership) will be in the earth forum, library 17. these files will be updated as development takes compuserve is particularly proud that enviroleague's founder chose this electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation. this announcement is being made simultaneously in both the outdoor and earth the electronic home of enviroleague is in compuserve's earth forum - go earth - message and library areas 17, both named "enviroleague." subsequently, enviroleague's initial governance council has held its first meeting. boyd critz was elected as the first enviroleague chief guardian (equivalent to chairman of the board or ceo). he can be reached at home (309) 675-4483 in case of real need. also, mail can be addressed to: p.o. box 418 peoria, il 61651-0418 those interested in starting an enviroleague team might just establish contact, to receive a diskette (ibm dos, ascii) with initial information. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 means to me. the full quote (michael crichton, _jurrasic_park_) was something like "the earth has existed quite contently for billions of years. we have been here but for the blink of an eye, and if we were gone tomorrow, the earth would not miss us.". i remember this quote to keep myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we are masters of this planet. cool quote. the earth doesn't need saving, it's existed quite happily with- out us, we are the ones who need saving. better watch it. the theists will jump on you for that... :-) brian west. this is not a sig file * -"to the earth, we have been this is not a sig file * here but for the blink of an ok, so it's a sig file * eye, if we were gone tomorrow, posted by west@wam.umd.edu * we would not be missed."- who doesn't care who knows it. * (jurassic park) ** diclaimer: i said this, i meant this, nobody made me do it.** if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others. 
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 hi.i'm a turkish guy who had tried atheism,satenism and buddism at some instant s of hislife.finally i decided on islambecause of many facts which i intend to write here.from my point of view,you atheists are people who has dropped to a deep,dark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the well.but if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skies.you'dsee t he truth but you close your eyes.allah is the only god and mohammed is his mess ager.now,let's generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamics.w hat's your point of view to the problem of the ''first kiss''?that is,the first spark which was generated for the formation of the universe.has it formed by i tself?you are bothering yourselves with the big bang but where is the first spa rk?please think a bit.think and return to the only reality of the universe:isla m| uh oh. this looks a bit too much like bobby's "atheism is false" stuff. are we really going to have to go through this again? maybe the universe is cyclical! :) :( --brendan dunn 
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 and in the us, even that argument doesn't stand. it costs far more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed, clothe, and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life. some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system. i find it to be one of it's greatest virtues. i assume that you are talking about the appeals processes, etc.? well, it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life will also tend to appeal (though not quite as much in the "final hours." anyway, economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose the punishment. 
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 (reference line trimmed) first, i'll make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one who has commited murder. well, i'd say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder. for instance, if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain blanks, and someone was killed with such a gun, the person who actually performed the action isn't the murderer (but i guess this is actually made clear in the below definition). i'd be interested to see a more reasonable definition. what do you mean by "reasonable?" otherwise, your inductive definition doesn't bottom out: your definition, in essence, is that murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited murder, against his will. expanding the second occurence of `murder' in the above, we see that yes, it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition. but, even though the series is recursively infinite, i think the meaning can still be deduced. i assume you can see the problem here. to do a correct inductive definition, you must define something in terms of a simpler case, and you must have one or several "bottoming out" cases. for instance, we can define the factorial function (the function which assigns to a positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or equal to it) on the positive integers inductively as follows: [math lesson deleted] okay, let's look at this situation: suppose there is a longstanding feud between two families which claim that the other committed some travesty in the distant past. each time a member of the one family kills a member of the other, the other family thinks that it is justified in killing a that member of the first family. now, let's suppose that this sequence has occurred an infinite number of times. or, if you don't like dealing with infinities, suppose that one member of the family goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing. that is, there is a never-ending loop of slayings based on some non-existent travesty. how do you resolve this? well, they are all murders. now, i suppose that this isn't totally applicable to your "problem," but it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system. and, in any case, the nested "murderer" in the definition of murder cannot be infintely recursive, given the finite existence of humanity. and, a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved. so, the first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily a murderer. is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently unreducable definition? see, in a totally objective system where all the information is available, such a nested definition isn't really a problem. 
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 of course, bobby then states that satan has no free will, that he does as god wants him to. this brings up a host of paradoxes: is god therefore evil; do i have free will or is god directing me also; if god is evil, which part of his infinite self is good and which is evil; etc.? i would like for once a solid answer, not a run-about. # i hope i gave you a fairly solid answer to this one: i simply don't agree # with the embodied version of a satan who is a separate creation or a force. the belief to which i ascribe is that evil is not a creation; rather, it is "the absence of good." this fits with all the logic about things having dual use: e.g., a knife can be used to sculpt and it can be used to kill. like entropy, evil is seen in this view as neither force nor entity. satan is, therefore, metaphorical. in fact, there are several verses of the holy qur'an which appear to support this view and several traditions as well. for example, there is a tradition that food should never be left open on a shelf or table overnight, lest "satan" enter it. it appears that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs; thus, the evil effect of spoiled food is described as "satan." but there are many examples of satan personified. which am i to believe? # and there are quite physical descriptions of heaven and hell in the # holy qur'an, the bible, etc. there have been times in the spiritual # and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical # descriptions of heaven, hell, and satan were taken quite literally # and that *worked* for the time. as i mentioned in the tradition # cited above, for example, it was sufficient in the absence of a theory # about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the "evil" # which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as "satanic." which begs the question: if satan in this case is metaphorical, how can you be certain allah is not the same way? # the bottom line here, however, is that describing a spiritual plane # in human language is something like describing "color" to a person # who has been blind from birth. you may want to read the book # flatland (if you haven't already) or the dragon's egg. the first # is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con- # cept... [some deleted for space saving] # when language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe # another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers, then # such conventions as metaphor, allegory, and the like come to be # necessary. the "unseen" is described in terms which have reference` # and meaning for the reader/listener. but, like all models, a compro- # mise must be made when speaking metaphorically: clarity and directness # of meaning, equivalence of perception, and the like are all # crippled. but what else can you do? this is why i asked the above. how would you then know god exists as a spirit or being rather than just being metaphorical? i mean, it's okay to say "well, satan is just metaphorical," but then you have to justify this belief and justify that god is not some metaphor for something else. i say this because there are many, many instances of satan described as a being (such as the tormentor in the old testament book of job, or the temptor in the new testament gospels). in the same way, god too is described as a being (or spirit.) how am i to know one is metaphorical and not the other. further, belief in god isn't a bar to evil. let's consider the case of satanists: even if satan were metaphorical, the satanist would have to believe in god to justify this belief. again, we have a case where someone does believe in god, but by religious standards, they are "evil." if bobby does see this, let him address this question also. [deleted some more on "metaphor"] obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible, but i'm not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve into religious interpretation further. however, if anyone wishes to discuss this, i'm certainly willing (either off line - e-mail - or on line - posting). _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ * atheist _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * libertarian _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-individuality _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-responsibility _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jr. * and all that jazz... 
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 date: mon, 5 apr 1993 16:30:50 gmt from: stilgar <west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu> the illiad is the undisputed word of god(tm) *prove me wrong* i dispute it. ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong. i dispute your counter-example ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and i am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh 8^p this looks like a serious case of temporary islam. 
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 i've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you might have caught on by now. and there is no "alternative", but the point is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either. the problems of metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or i should say, humans cannot solve them. how does that saying go: those who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it. have you washed your brain today? 
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 sorry, but there are no supernatural forces necessary to create a pathogen. you are saying, "since diseases are bad, the bad entity must have created it." so what would you say about acid rain, meteors falling from the sky, volcanoes, earthquakes, and other quote unquote "acts of god?" i would say that they are not "acts of god" but natural it amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not the result of the natural process of evolution (but rather an "act of god") and then in the same post say that these other processes (volcanos et al.) are natural occurrences. who gave you the right to choose what things are natural processes and what are direct acts of god? how do you know that god doesn't cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose in mind? it would certainly go along with the sadistic nature i've seen in the bible. even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god's protection. if we choose to live apart from god's law (humanity collectively), then it should come as no surprise that there are adverse consequences to our (collective) action. one of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which inevitably result in an entropic universe. may i ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from? by "collective" i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels, individually and collectively. if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of mankind), then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole. adam & eve (two people), even tho they had the honor (or so you christians claim) of being the first two, definitely do not represent a majority in the billions and trillions (probably more) of people that have come after them. perhaps they were the majority then, but *i* (and you) weren't around to vote, and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to do with that tree. but your god never asked us. he just assumes that if you have two bad people then they all must be bad. hmm. sounds like the same kind of false generalization that i see many of the theists posting here resorting to. so that's where they get it... shoulda known. jim b. if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others. 
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 bobby: get this the hell out of your .sig until you 1) learn what it stands for and 2) really mean it. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 date: fri, 2 apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500 from: nanci ann miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> 3. can god uncreate itself? no. for if he did, he would violate his own nature which he cannot do. it is god's nature to exist. he is, after all, the "i am" which is a statement of his inherent existence. he is existence itself. existence cannot "not-exist". then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent. what do you mean by omnipotent here? do you mean by "omnipotent" that god should be able to do anything/everything? this creates a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively to be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and not "being able to do anything/everything". let me illustrate by analogy. suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth. suppose further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any nation or group of nations. the us has the power to go into any country at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the us see fit. the us would be militarily "omnipotent". but suppose further that the us holds to a doctrine/philosophy of not interfering in the internal affairs of any nation, such as the current civil war in the former yugoslavian states. technically (in this scenario) the us would have the power to unilaterally go into yugoslavia and straighten out the mess. but effectively the us could not intervene without violating its own policy of non-interference. if the policy of non-interference were held to strongly enough, then there would never be a question that it would ever be violated. effectively, the us would be limited in what it could actually do, although it had the power to do "whatever it wanted". the us would simply "never want to interfere" for such an idea would be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate non-interference policy. god is effectively limited in the same sense. he is all powerful, but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he, himself is. i hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning jim b. 
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 okay. so you want me to name names? there are obviously no official records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for convenience. what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of. the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex. nobody complains, nobody cares, nobody needs to know. perhaps you should alert your imam. it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think. or maybe it takes 4 muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists! again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy. give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying. it is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst first of all, i'm not your buddy! second, read what i wrote. i'm not talking about what muslims are allowed to do, merely what *some* practice. they consider themselves as muslim as you, so don't retort with the old and tired "they must not be true muslims" bullshit. if i gave you the names what will you do with this information? is a fatwa going to be leashed out against the perpetrators? do you honestly think that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess? with the kind of extremism shown by your co-religionaries? fat chance. at any rate, there can be no conclusive "proof" by the very nature of the act. perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in theory, but hope that allah will forgive them in the end. i think it's rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims in this regard. also, kind of silly. are you insinuating that because the koranic law forbids it, there are no criminals in muslim countries? this is as far as i care to go on this subject. the weakness of your arguments are for all netters to see. over and out... disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way. f. a. karner aix technical support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com 
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 |> >my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be |> >cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances. |> it can be painless, so it isn't cruel. and, it has occurred frequently |> since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual. koff! you mean that as long as i put you to sleep first, i can kill you without being cruel? this changes everything. 
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 |> >>then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over? |> >because you rarely ever answer them. |> nope, i've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple |> times. he: fifty dollars if i can't answer your question. she: what is the big bang theory. he: the big bang theory is a recipe for cookies. she: fifty dollars, please. he: hey, i didn't say the answers would make sense. 
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 |> >>>how long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the |> >>>default? ... where's the cutoff point? |> >>i don't know where the exact cutoff is, but it is at least after a few |> >>years, and surely after 40 years. |> >why does the notion of default not take into account changes |> >in population makeup? |> specifically, which changes are you talking about? are you arguing |> that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the |> population now than 40 years ago? no, do i have to? i'm just commenting that it makes very little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default. seen any steam trains recently? 
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 responds to a lot of grief given to him galahad@leland.stanford.edu (scott compton) a.k.a. "the sagemaster" but then i ask, so? where is this relevant to my discussion in answering john's question of why? why are there genetic diseases, and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies to develop antibodies. is it god's fault? (the original question) -- i say no, it is not. most of scotty's followup *was* irrelevant to the original question, but this is not unusual, as threads often quickly evolve away from the original topic. what i could not understand is why jim spent so much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies. may i ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from? by "collective" i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels, individually and collectively. if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of mankind), well, i guess hypothetical adam was "the majority of mankind" seeing how he was the only man at the time. then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole. if you didn't understand that, then i apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion. i understand what you mean by "collective," but i think it is an insane perversion of justice. what sort of judge would punish the descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor? if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response, send a copy to jim_brown@oz.bmd.trw.com. i can't read a.a. every day, and some posts slip by. thanks. well, i must admit that you probably read a.a. more often than i read the bible these days. but you missed a couple of good followups to your post. i'm sending you a personal copy of my followup which i hope you will respond to publically in a.a. the sageless 
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 |> >|>er, jon, what ken said was: |> >|> there have previously been people like you in your country. unfortunately, |> >|> most jews did not survive. |> >|>that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi. [my previous posting deleted] |> yes, yes. this is a perfectly fine rant, and i agree with it completely. |> but what does it have to do with anything? the issue at hand here |> is whether or not ken accused the fellow from germany of being a |> nazi. i grant that he did not explicity make this accusation, but |> he came pretty damn close. he is certainly accusing the guy of |> sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the jews, and |> that's good enough for me. the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history, and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany. that's right. there have been. there have also been people who were formally nazis. but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly now what exactly don't you understand about what i wrote, and why don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand? 
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 |> in article <1pint5$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (jon livesey) writes well, germany was hardly the only country to discriminate against the jews, although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job of expressing a general european dislike of them. this should not turn into a debate on antisemitism, but you should also point out that luther's antisemitism was based on religious grounds, while hitler's was on racial grounds, and wagnmer's on aesthetic grounds. just blanketing the whole group is poor analysis, even if they all are bigots. i find these to be intriguing remarks. could you give us a bit more explanation here? for example, which religion is anti-semitic, and which aesthetic? 
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 |> >should we british go around blowing up skyscrapers next? |> i don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying |> (1) that the person accused of blowing up the wtc in ny actually did it, |> and |> (2) that islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the wtc. i was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa against rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally i think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long posting, and to say "i don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying....." is at the very best quite disingenuous, and perhaps even dishonest. if anyone care to dig back and read the full posting, they will see nothing of the kind. i trust you don't deny that islamic teaching has "something to do" with the fatwa against rushdie? 
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 i found a list of biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit, but now i'd like some help with it. i'm curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve. it's about time. why do atheists spend so much time paying attention to the bible, anyway? face it, there are better things to do with your life! i used to chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity of people believing in it as truth, etc. why do we spend so little time on the mayan religion, or the native americans? heck, the native americans have signifigantly more interesting myths. also, what about the egyptians. i think we pay so much attention to christianity because we accept it as a _religion_ and not a mythology, which i find more accurate. i try to be tolerant. it gets very hard when someone places a book under my nose and tells me it's special. it's not. 
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 |> >>date: fri, 2 apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500 |> >>from: nanci ann miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> |> >>> > 3. can god uncreate itself? |> >>> no. for if he did, he would violate his own nature which he cannot do. |> >>> it is god's nature to exist. he is, after all, the "i am" which is |> >>> a statement of his inherent existence. he is existence itself. |> >>> existence cannot "not-exist". |> >>then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent. |> what do you mean by omnipotent here? do you mean by "omnipotent" |> that god should be able to do anything/everything? this creates |> a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively |> useless. |> to be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and |> not "being able to do anything/everything". |> let me illustrate by analogy. |> suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth. suppose |> further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any |> nation or group of nations. the us has the power to go into any country |> at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the |> us see fit. the us would be militarily "omnipotent". did you check with the afghans before posting this? they might disagree. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51194">
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 why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression? you can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. i mean, you can, and people have, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis. at best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people i agree, i reckon it's television and the increase in fundamentalism.. you think its the increase in pre-marital sex... others thinks its because psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent criminals con them into letting them out into the streets... others think it's the increase in designer drugs... others think it's a communist plot. basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society are far too complicated for us to control. we just have to hold on to the panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. but one things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not due solely to sex out of marriage. fred rice <-- a muslim, giving his point of view. darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu 
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 for a complete description of what is, and is not atheism or agnosticism see the faq for alt.atheism in alt.answers... i think. utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu i apologize for posting this. i thought it was only going to talk.origins. i also took my definitions from a 1938 websters. nonetheless, the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like 'bimonthly' and 'biweekly' they have no commonly accepted definitions and should be used with care. larry henling lmh@shakes.caltech.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51196">
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 |> deletions... |> er, jon, what ken said was: |> there have previously been people like you in your country. unfortunately, |> most jews did not survive. |> that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi. hitler and the nazis didn't spring fully formed from the forehead of athena. they didn't invent anti-semitism. they built on a foundation of anti-semitism that was already present in germany. this foundation of anti-semitism was laid down, not by the nazis, but by the people i listed, and also by hundreds of years of unthinking, knee-jerk bigotry, on the part of perfectly ordinary people, and, of course, their pastors and priests. what we have to worry about today is not whether some hollywood hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the german stage in one unprepared step, but whether those same bedrock foundations of anti-semitism are being laid down, little by little, in germany, as we speak. and if so, they will be laid down, not by hitlers and himmlers, who will come later, but by "people like" the poster in question. the people who think that casual anti-semitism is acceptable, or even fun. deletions... i did. now may i suggest, with the greatest possible respect, that you go read some history? so, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic? perhaps you imply that anyone in germany who doesn't agree with israely policy in a nazi? pray tell, how does it even qualify as "casual anti-semitism"? if the term doesn't apply, why then bring it up? your own bigotry is shining through. disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way. f. a. karner aix technical support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com 
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 god is effectively limited in the same sense. he is all powerful, but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he, himself is. cannot? try, will not. "one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men." bobby mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu ) april 4, 1993 the one true muslim left in the world. 
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 :> god is eternal. [a = b] :> jesus is god. [c = a] :> therefore, jesus is eternal. [c = b] :> this works both logically and mathematically. god is of the set of :> things which are eternal. jesus is a subset of god. therefore :> jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal. everything isn't always so logical.... mercedes is a car. that girl is mercedes. therefore, that girl is a car? this is not strickly correct. only by incorrect application of the rules of language, does it seem to work. the mercedes in the first premis, and the one in the second are not the same mercedes. in your case, a = b c = d a and d are not equal. one is a name of a person, the other the name of a object. you can not simply extract a word without taking the context into account. of course, your case doesn't imply that a = d. in his case, a does equal d. try again... "one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men." bobby mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu ) april 4, 1993 the one true muslim left in the world. 
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 warning - if you are anything like a devout christian this post is really going to offend and/or upset you. [...numerous ctrl-ls deleted...hehehe...] i assume everyone here is familiar with the christian `fish' symbol. the one on the back of all those volvos. the one that looks (something) like \__/\ or perhaps more like () ? well, i found out this morning where it comes from ... it's been stolen from the pagans, like so much else ... (last last chance to be blisfully ignorant ;-] hmm, how can i put it. well, it comes from, this ... `__-'`-__' sigh, i hate drawing with ascii chars. still, i think you can work it out from there ... if you haven't, go read "skinny legs and all" by tom robbins. if he's even 50% accurate then most of the modern religions have been "appropriated". it's also a great book. followups to alt.atheism, whose readers are probably slightly more authorative on this. craig harding kilroy@acme.gen.nz acme bbs +64 6 3551342 "jub'er lbh pnyyvat n obmb?" craig- i thought it was derived from a greek acronym. my greek isn't up to much, but it goes something like this: jesus christ, god => iesus christos, theos => ichthos which is the greek for "fish" (as in, eg "ichthysaurus"). apologies for my dreadful greek! perhaps someone will correct it. by the way, what does your sig mean? 
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 one of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit god by giving god a form. god does not have a "face". wait a minute. i thought you said that allah (i presume allah == god) was unknowable, and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him. you say that god does not have a "face". doesn't the bible say that god has hindparts? how do you suggest i decide which (if any) of you is right? or are you both right? god has hindparts but no face? or does your use of quotation marks: god does not have a "face". allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like? bobby mozumder 
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 but could you give a definition of free will? especially in the presence of an omniscient being? "will" is "self-determination". in other words, god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god. all "will", therefore, is "free will". so these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of their circumstances (their genetics, their environment, their experiences) which are not all self-determined? (of course, the idea of hell makes the idea of "free will" dubious. on the other hand, the idea of hell is not a very powerful idea. "a parable for you "there was once our main character who blah blah blah. "one day, a thug pointed a mean looking gun at omc, and said, 'do what i say, or i'm blasting you to hell.' "omc thought, 'if i believe this thug, and follow the instructions that will be given, i'll avoid getting blasted to hell. on the other hand, if i believe this thug, and do not follow the instructions that will be given, i'll get blasted to hell. hmm... the more attractive choice is obvious, i'll follow the instructions.' now, omc found the choice obvious because everything omc had learned about getting blasted to hell made it appear very undesirable. "but then omc noticed that the thug's gun wasn't a real gun. the thug's threats were make believe. "so omc ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah.") qpliu@princeton.edu standard opinion: opinions are delta-correlated. 
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 the illiad is the undisputed word of god(tm) *prove me wrong* i dispute it. ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong. i dispute your counter-example ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and i am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh no. the premis stated that it was undisputed. fine... the illiad is the word of god(tm) (disputed or not, it is) dispute that. it won't matter. prove me wrong. brian west this is not a sig file * -"to the earth, we have been this is not a sig file * here but for the blink of an ok, so it's a sig file * eye, if we were gone tomorrow, posted by west@wam.umd.edu * we would not be missed."- who doesn't care who knows it. * (jurassic park) ** diclaimer: i said this, i meant this, nobody made me do it.** 
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 |> why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so |> incidental, if the question of god is trivial? fess up, it matters to |> you a great deal. ask yourself two questions. 1. how important is mithras in your life today? 2. how important would mithras become if there was a well funded group of fanatics trying to get the schools system to teach your children that mithras was the one true god? right on, jon! who cares who or whose, as long as it works for the individual. but don't try to impose those beliefs on us or our children. i would add the well-funded group tries also to purge science, to deny children access to great wonders and skills. and how about the kids born to creationists? what a burden with which to begin adult life. it must be a cruel awakening for those who finally see the light, provided it is possible to escape from the depths of this type of ignorance. 
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 [why do babies get diseases, etc.] what god did create was life according to a protein code which is mutable and can evolve. without delving into a deep discussion of creationism vs evolutionism, here's the (main) problem. the scenario you outline is reasonably consistent, but all the evidence that i am familiar with not only does not support it, but indicates something far different. the earth, by latest estimates, is about 4.6 billion years old, and has had life for about 3.5 billion of those years. humans have only been around for (at most) about 200,000 years. but, the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving, and, in fact, disease-ridden, long before there were people. (yes, there are fossils that show signs of disease... mostly bone disorders, of course, but there are some.) heck, not just fossil evidence, but what we've been able to glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for a long, long time. if human sin was what brought about disease (at least, indirectly, though necessarily) then how could it exist before humans? god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw. and without getting sidetracked into the theological ramifications of the original sin, the main effect of the so-called original sin for this discussion was to remove humanity from god's protection since by their choice a&e cut themselves off from intimate fellowship with god. in addition, their sin caused them to come under the dominion of satan, who then assumed dominion over the earth... [deletions] since humanity was no longer under god's protection but under satan's dominion, it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic. although the forces of natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this. uh... i know of many evolutionary biologists, who know more about biology than you claim to, who will strongly disagree with this. there is no evidence that the human genetic code (or any other) 'started off' in perfect condition. it seems to adapt to its envionment, in a collective sense. i'm really curious as to what you mean by 'the degeneration of the genetic code'. human dna, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in causing infection and disease. it is a bad combination. umm. nah, we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and bacteria, and they to us. only a very small percentage of microlife is harmful to humans... and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby constant in size, but the ranks keep changing. for example, bubonic plague used to be a really nasty disease, i'm sure you'll agree. but it still pops up from time to time, even today... and doesn't do as much damage. part of that is because of better sanitation, but even when people get the disease, the symptoms tend to be less severe than in the past. this seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago, and because the really nasty variants 'overgrazed', (forgive the poor terminology, i'm an engineer, not a doctor! :-> ) and died off for lack of nearby hosts. i could be wrong on this, but from what i gather acne is only a few hundred years old, and used to be nastier, though no killer. it seems to be getting less nasty w/age... we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial diseases/disorders. now, wait a minute. i have a question. humans were created perfect, right? and, you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease. it seems unlikely that satan, who's making the diseases, would also gift humans with the means to fight them off. simpler to make the diseases less lethal, if he wants survivors. as far as i can see, our immune systems, imperfect though they may (presently?) be, must have been built into us by god. i want to be clear on this: are you saying that god was planning ahead for the time when satan would be in charge by building an immune system that was not, at the time of design, necessary? that is, god made our immune systems ahead of time, knowing that adam and eve would sin and their descendents would need to fight off diseases? this may be more of a mystical/supernatural explanation than you are prepared to accept, but god is not responsible for disease. even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god's protection. here's another puzzle. what, exactly, do you mean by 'perfect' in the phrase, 'created... perfect and without flaw'? to my mind, a 'perfect' system would be incapable of degrading over time. a 'perfect' system that will, without constant intervention, become imperfect is *not* a perfect system. at least, imho. or is it that god did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a bunch of gum wrappers held together with elmer's glue? that is, the original genetic 'instructions' were perfect, but were 'written' in inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart? if so, why could god not have used better materials? was god *incapable* of creating a system that could maintain itself, of did it just choose not to? [deletions] in summary, newborns are innocent, but god does not cause their suffering. my main point, as i said, was that there really isn't any evidence for the explanation you give. (at least, that i'm aware of.) but, i couldn't help making a few nitpicks here and there. :-> ray ingles || the above opinions are probably || not those of the university of ingles@engin.umich.edu || michigan. yet. 
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 [deletions] now, back to your post. you have done a fine job at using your seventh grade 'life science' course to explain why bad diseases are caused by satan and good things are a result of god. but i want to let you in on a little secret. "we can create an amino acid sequence in lab! -- and guess what, the sequence curls into a helix! wow! that's right, it can happen without a supernatural force." wow! all it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions of dollars of state of the art equipment. and i thought it took *intelligence* to create the building blocks of life. foolish me! people with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes. but tornadoes do not require intelligence to exist. not only that, the equipment needed is not really 'state of the art.' to study the *products*, yes, but not to generate them. if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response, send a copy to jim_brown@oz.bmd.trw.com. i can't read a.a. every day, and some posts slip by. thanks. oh, i will. :-> ray ingles || the above opinions are probably || not those of the university of ingles@engin.umich.edu || michigan. yet. 
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 date: 5 apr 1993 23:32:28 gmt from: jon livesey <livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com> |> i don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. it is a basic |> principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says "i testify |> that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god" that, |> so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one _must_ |> be considered muslim by all muslims. so the phenomenon you're attempting |> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic |> islamic principles. if you want to attack islam you could do better than |> than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts. then mr mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing bad acts, people temporarily become atheists? of course b.m. is not incorrect. he is defending islam. when defending islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize you. but when an atheist uses the same argument he is using "petty sarcasm". so b.m. can have his "temporary atheists" whenever he needs them and all the "temporary atheists" can later say that they were always good muslims because they never explicitly rejected islam. temporary atheism, temporary islam, temporary marriage. none of it sticks. a teflon religion. how convenient. and so easy to clean up after. but then, what would you expect from a bunch of people who can't even agree on the phases of the moon? 
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 this kind of argument cries for a comment... : >>...god did not create : >>disease nor is he responsible for the maladies of newborns. : >>what god did create was life according to a protein code which is : >>mutable and can evolve. without delving into a deep discussion of : >>creationism vs evolutionism, god created the original genetic code : >>perfect and without flaw. do you have any evidence for this? if the code was once perfect, and has degraded ever since, we _should_ have some evidence in favour of this statement, shouldn't we? perhaps the biggest "imperfection" of the code is that it is full of non-coding regions, introns, which are so called because they intervene with the coding regions (exons). an impressive amount of evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin; it is likely that early exons represented early protein domains. is the number of introns decreasing or increasing? it appears that intron loss can occur, and species with common ancestry usually have quite similar exon-intron structure in their genes. on the other hand, the possibility that introns have been inserted later, presents several logical difficulties. introns are removed by a splicing mechanism - this would have to be present, but unused, if introns are inserted. moreover, intron insertion would have required _precise_ targeting - random insertion would not be tolerated, since sequences for intron removal (self-splicing of mrna) are conserved. besides, transposition of a sequence usually leaves a trace - long terminal repeats and target - site duplications, and these are not found in or near intron sequences. i seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and genetics before posting "theological arguments" like this. try watson's molecular biology of the gene or darnell, lodish & baltimore's molecular biology of the cell for starters. : remember, the question was posed in a theological context (why does : god cause disease in newborns?), and my answer is likewise from a : theological perspective -- my own. it is no less valid than a purely : scientific perspective, just different. scientific perspective is supported by the evidence, whereas theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion. : i think you misread my meaning. i said god made the genetic code perfect, : but that doesn't mean it's perfect now. it has certainly evolved since. for the worse? would you please cite a few references that support your assertion? your assertion is less valid than the scientific perspective, unless you support it by some evidence. in fact, it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps more important than we've thought - for instance, sex might have evolved as defence against parasites. (this view is supported by computer simulations of evolution, eg tierra.) : perhaps. i thought it was higher energy rays like x-rays, gamma : rays, and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage. in fact, it is thermal energy that does most of the damage, although it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action. : actually, neither of us "knows" what the atmosphere was like at the : time when god created life. according to my recollection, most : biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago -- after : all, that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth : was created. it would still be too primitive to support life. i : seem to remember a figure more like 2.5 to 3 billion years ago for : the origination of life on earth. anyone with a better estimate? i'd replace "created" with "formed", since there is no need to invoke any creator if the earth can be formed without one. most recent estimates of the age of the earth range between 4.6 - 4.8 billion years, and earliest signs of life (not true fossils, but organic, stromatolite-like layers) date back to 3.5 billion years. this would leave more than billion years for the first cells to i'm sorry i can't give any references, this is based on the course on evolutionary biochemistry i attended here. : >>dominion, it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer : >>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic. although the forces of : >>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the : >>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this. again, do you _want_ this be true, or do you have any evidence for this supposed "degeneration"? i can understand scott's reaction: : > excuse me, but this is so far-fetched that i know you must be : > jesting. do you know what pathogens are? do you know what : > point mutations are? do you know that everything can come : > about spontaneously?!!!!! : in response to your last statement, no, and neither do you. : you may very well believe that and accept it as fact, but you : cannot *know* that. i hope you don't forget this: we have _evidence_ that suggests everything can come about spontaneously. do you have evidence against this conclusion? in science, one does not have to _believe_ in anything. it is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve. but the right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so, and not to present one's own conclusions prior to this. theology does not use this method. therefore, i seriously doubt it could ever come to right conclusions. : >>human dna, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely : >>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the : >>simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in : >>causing infection and disease. it is a bad combination. hence : >>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial : >>diseases/disorders. you are supposing a purpose, not a valid move. bacteria and viruses do not exist to cause disease. they are just another manifests of a general principle of evolution - only replication saves replicators from degradiation. we are just an efficient method for our dna to survive and replicate. the less efficient methods didn't make it to the present. and for the last time. please present some evidence for your claim that human dna is degrading through evolutionary processes. some people have claimed that the opposite is true - we have suppressed our selection, and thus are bound to degrade. i haven't seen much evidence for either : but then i ask, so? where is this relevant to my discussion in : answering john's question of why? why are there genetic diseases, : and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require : babies to develop antibodies. is it god's fault? (the original : question) -- i say no, it is not. of course, nothing "evil" is god's fault. but your explanation does not work, it fails miserably. : you may be right. but the fact is that you don't know that : satan is not responsible, and neither do i. : suppose that a powerful, evil being like satan exists. would it : be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills : that affect mankind? i don't think so. he could have done a much better job. (pun intended.) the problem is, it seems no satan is necessary to explain any diseases, they are just as inevitable as any product of evolution. : did i say that? where? seems to me like another bad inference. : actually what you've done is to oversimplify what i said to the : point that your summary of my words takes on a new context. i : never said that people are "meant" (presumably by god) "to be : punished by getting diseases". why i did say is that free moral : choices have attendent consequences. if mankind chooses to reject : god, as people have done since the beginning, then they should not : expect god to protect them from adverse events in an entropic : universe. i am not expecting this. if god exists, i expect him to leave us alone. i would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed free. this is an interesting philosophical question, and the answer is not as clear-cut as it seems to be. what consequences would you expect from rejecting allah? : oh, i admit it's not perfect (yet). but i'm working on it. :) a good library or a bookstore is a good starting point. : what does this have to do with the price of tea in china, or the : question to which i provided an answer? biology and genetics are : fine subjects and important scientific endeavors. but they explain : *how* god created and set up life processes. they don't explain : the why behind creation, life, or its subsequent evolution. why is there a "why behind"? and your proposition was something that is not supported by the evidence. this is why we recommend these books. is there any need to invoke any why behind, a prime mover? evidence for this? if the whole universe can come into existence without any intervention, as recent cosmological theories (hawking et al) suggest, why do people still insist on this? : thanks scotty, for your fine and sagely advice. but i am : not highly motivated to learn all the nitty-gritty details : of biology and genetics, although i'm sure i'd find it a : fascinating subject. for i realize that the details do : not change the big picture, that god created life in the : beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its : environment. i'm sorry, but they do. there is no evidence for your big picture, and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation. it can come into existence without a supreme being. try reading p.w. atkins' creation revisited (freeman, 1992). ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51213">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51213" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> that's your mistake. it would be better for the children if the mother |> raised the child. |> one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", |> because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men. |> compare that with how homos are raised. do a study and you will get my |> point. |> but in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men |> stayed home and raised the child. that is something false made up by |> feminists that seek a status above men. you do not recognize the fact |> that men and women have natural differences. not just physically, but |> mentally also. bobby, there's a question here that i just have to ask. if all of your posts aren't some sort of extended, elaborate hoax, why are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world that you're feeble minded? you have a talent for saying the most absurd things. here's a little sign for you, print it, cut it out and put it on top of your computer/terminal. engage brain prior to operating keyboard (having said all that, i must admit we all get a laugh from your stuff.) | graham jenkins | graham.jenkins@its.csiro.au | | csiro | (commonwealth scientific & industrial | | canberra, australia | research organisation) | 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51215">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51215" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 by maintaining classes d and e, even in prison, it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error. i would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by mistake. though i do agree with the concept that the type d and e murderers are a massive waste of space and resources i don't agree with the concept: killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you. seems to be lacking in consistency. "i know" is nothing more than "i believe" with pretentions. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51216">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51216" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the islamic (tm) viewpoint though. for all we know, the prophet's cousin and the fourth khalif hazret-i ali may have said this after a frustrating night with a woman. that's very interesting. i wonder, are women's reactions recorded after a frustrating night with a man? is that considered to be important? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51217">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51217" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 [deletions] ...argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times. [deletions] interesting that you should mention that "argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times." i quite agree. why then, do some atheists here engage in it? more than a few times i have read posts where the atheists posting state that they 'cannot see how a gracious and loving god can allow such evil and suffering to occur as we see on the earth.' simply because they cannot envision it, it must not be true. if this is not an argument from incredulity, i don't know what is! as you have presented it, it is indeed an argument from incredulity. however, from what i have seen, it is not often presented in this manner. it is usually presented more in the form, "and *besides*, i cannot see... ...nor have i ever been offered a convincing explanation." moreover, it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such phenomena. that theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not an argument in theism's favor. especially when different theisms offer different explanations, and even different adherents of what is purportedly the same theism give different explanations... god has far more complex motivations and reasons for action or non-action than to simply "fix" evil whenever and however it occurs, or even *before* it occurs. and yet, it is this very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons why atheists (in general) reject god and in particular the christian god. not im my experience. in my experience, the most common reason is the lack of evidence in theism's favor. you mileage may vary. :-> this seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality, to wit, that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning on the part of one's opponents than it is to see it in oneself. oh, heck, i'll be snide this once. :-> it's also fairly easy to attack arguments that are not made. (i.e. 'strawmen'.) as one man of wisdom put it, take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye. sage advice indeed. raymond ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu "an apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away." - b. kliban 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51219">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51219" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 ]the "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak. comparison of the ]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text ]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia. this ]shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner ]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies. tell it to king james, mate. ]c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, ] + but strife closed in the sod. ]mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: ]tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." john burke, jdb1145@summa.tamu.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51220">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51220" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 date: tue, 6 apr 1993 00:11:49 gmt from: f. karner <karner@austin.ibm.com> okay. so you want me to name names? there are obviously no official records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for convenience. what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of. the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex. nobody complains, nobody cares, nobody needs to know. perhaps you should alert your imam. it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think. or maybe it takes 4 muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists! again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy. give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying. it is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from the indonesian handbook and fred rice's comments about temporary marriages? if so, i will be glad to repost them. will you accept that it just may be a practice among some muslims, if i do? or will you continue to claim that we are all lying and that it is "not practised at all amongst muslims". i don't think f. karner has to tell everyone anything. least of all that he is lying. since you obviously know nothing about this practice, there is very little you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying. perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing. learn more about islam. learn more about muslims. open your eyes. maybe you will also see some of the things the atheists see. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51221">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51221" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you. seems to be lacking in consistency. not any more so than holding people against their will is wrong if you hold people against their will we will punish you our punishment will be to hold you against your will is there any punishment which isn't something which, if done by a private person to another private person for no apparent reason, would lead to punishment? (fines, i suppose.) jim lippard lippard@ccit.arizona.edu dept. of philosophy lippard@arizvms.bitnet university of arizona tucson, az 85721 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51224">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51224" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 somewhere, roger colin shouse writes about "radical gay dogma." somewhere else he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesn't know. there are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth- reich-sophistique shit in his postings. maybe more. in fact i'm not sure the instances could be counted, because they reproduce like a virus the more you consider his words. my question is this: what is the best response to weasels like shouse and stan krieger? possibilities: (a) study them dispassionately and figure out how they work, then (1) remember what you've learned so as to combat them when they or their clones get into office (2) contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward (b) learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder this posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting. the point has been raised and has been answered. roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue; specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight"). there is really nothing else to discuss. trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't control their race but they can control their behavior). what else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue? nobody, including bsa, is denying anybody the right to live and/or worship as they please or don't please, but it doesn't mean that bsa is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious and moral standards on which our society has been established and on which it should continue to be based. stan krieger all opinions, advice, or suggestions, even unix system laboratories if related to my employment, are my own. summit, nj smk@usl.com 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51225">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51225" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 :p :p>my favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is :p>that if the bible is really inspired by god and if it is really that :p>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and :p>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right, :p>literally. if not, then why should i put any merit at all in something :p>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was :p>originally inspired by god? :p :pthe "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak. comparison of the :pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text :phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia. this :pshouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner :pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies. well corrupted the first time is good enough. seeing that the bible was constructed 400 years after jesus's death, in the text of merchants (ie-owe this and owe that) i wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously. obviously it was not intended for such nonsense, otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize (sp) off of the asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51226">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51226" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 :p>my atheism is incidental, and the question of "god" is trivial. :p :p>but........ :p :p>it matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me, :p>when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific :p>fact in school, when they tell me i can have no morals because morals are :p>from "god", when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist :p>shouldn't be considered a citizen and couldn't be patriotic because "after :p>all this is one nation under god", when the fundies try to take over the :p>party that may well provide the next president of the united states of :p>america so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country, :p>et cetera.......... :p :p>that's why i subscribe to alt.atheism. :p :p>and in the middle of this, people who aren't mind readers pop up on :p>alt.atheism to tell me what i do or don't believe, or to concoct some :p>straw-man reason why i don't share their particular belief. :p :p>you think i should just accept this? :p :p>this isn't particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians. i have been :p>told on alt.atheism that i reject allah because i am too proud to embrace :p>islam, and that i reject krishna because my eyes are closed. but most of :p>the religious nuts who post on alt.atheism are some kind of militant :p>christian who can't accept that others don't share their beliefs. this :p>kind of stuff should be kept on talk.religion.misc, where it belongs. :p :p>atheism isn't a belief, it's the absence of belief in any gods. :p> ------- :p :p>do you have a problem with this? :p :p>> :p>>bill :pfirst, i would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief. it is a beilief :pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith. an atheist says there are no gods. this cannot be proven. therefore you are excepting this on :pfaith alone. that is a belief. secondly, you complain so much about how the :pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you, but you don't :pmention anything about how the atheists, such as; madamme murry o'hare(founder :pof the atheists association in austin texas), and robert sherman(from the chicago area) have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of god from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during chistmas, forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of god in it (like sherman has done), or trying to get the slogan "in god we trust" off of the american currency? you also talk about creation "myths" as if they are in fact myths and tha :p :p :p :phave concrete evidece of this. you probably :pdon't and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity. if this is not so please do show me why it isn't. :pmark covalt the only real problem i have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being asiatic in origin. as soon as christians become the good non ego-centric buddhists they are supposed to be, then i might listen. my opinion, i speak not for my place of employment... but i should... "christ was over-rated, and will the atf follow koresh (the current christ) through his ascention to heaven?" 
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</instance>
<instance id="alt.atheism51227">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51227" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i have an addition to the faq regarding "why are there no atheist hospitals." if i recall correctly, johns hopkins was built to provide medical services without the "backing" of a religious group...thus making it a hospital "dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism." might someone check up on this? brian evans | "bad mood, bad mood...sure i'm in a bad mood! bevans@carina.unm.edu | i haven't had sex...*ever!*" -- virgin mary 
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</instance>
<instance id="alt.atheism51229">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51229" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else. list of killings in the name of religion 1. iran-iraq war: 1,000,000 2. civil war in sudan: 1,000,000 3, riots in india-pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000 4. massacares in bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000 5. inquistions in america in 1500s: x million (x=??) 6. crusades: ?? i am sure that people can add a lot more to the list. i wonder what bobby has to say about the above. standard excuses will not be accepted. -- naren all standard disclaimers apply 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51231">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51231" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 [reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (e. h. welbon)] there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me what it is). therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this i cannot accept. i accept nothing on blind faith. invisible pink flying unicorns! need i say more? ...i harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god existing or not. some folks call this agnosticism. it does not suffer from "blind faith" at all. i think of it as "don't worry, be happy". for many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration: what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing? there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist. most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith. faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence. it is a reliable way of knowing? there is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence of any possibility of proof. even when we agree to take someone elses word "on faith", we just mean that having found this person to be reliable in the past, we judge him likely to be a reliable source now. if we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence everywhere else, why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about the difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing, rather than, as some agnostic posters would have it, whether ones faith is in gods or no gods. the theist believes that faith is an acceptable basis for a belief in gods, even if he rejects faith as reliable at other times, for example in his work as a scientist. the atheist believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable knowledge. agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than theism or atheism, unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other knowledge. without evidence, why should we believe in gods rather than santa claus or the easter bunny? i would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn't require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods. i don't believe that there is any such thing as absolute knowledge. atheism is the best and simplest theory to fit the (lack of) facts and so should be held until contrary evidence is found. david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51234">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51234" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i somewhat agree with u. however, what it comes to (theist) religion, it's a different matter. that's because religion is like a drug, once u use it, it's very difficult to get out of it. that's because in order to experience a religion, u necessarily have to have blind faith, and once u have the blind faith, it's very diffcult for you to reason yourself back to atheism again. therefore, it's unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to judge it. it's like asking people to "try dying to find out what death is like". well now, we can't judge death until we are dead right? so, why should we judge religion without having experienced it? people have said that religion is bad by any account, and that it is in no way useful, etc., but i don't totally agree with this. of course, we cannot really say how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion, but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it. so basically, we can not judge whether religion is the right route for a given individual, or even for a general population. we can say that it is not best for us personally (at least, you can choose not to use religion--might be hard to try to find out its benefits, as you state above). 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51237">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51237" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 some soldiers are dependent on religion, for a number of purposes. and some are no doubt dependent on cocaine, yet i don't see the military paying for coca fields. while religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation, what are the benefits of cocaine? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51238">
<answer instance="alt.atheism51238" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 many people would probably think (especially if the fanatics propogandized this) that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious. many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion, if we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference. that's not what the people i've asked think. perhaps you would be right if you said the fundamentalists would think this way; after all, they think they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress. however, you have not shown where you get this idea that 'many' people would 'probably' think it's atheism vs. religion, winner take all. as far as i can tell, it is your groundless prediction that this will happen. but you haven't taken into the account of propoganda. remember, if you asked germans before wwii if the jews shoudl be slaughtered, they would probably answer no, but, after the propoganda machine rolled through, at least some were able to tolerate it. you see, it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general the propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues, including abortion and gays... look at some of the things that have happened. well, so far they have passed one amendment, which is currently under intense scrutiny, and they have failed to outlaw abortion, which is their prime goal on that issue. yep, they seem sooo effective. sure. well, they haven't managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity of the courts. but, they have managed to create quite a few problems for people that wanted to have an abortion. they could create similar problems for us. and, it could be worse. they can try to stop abortions by blocking clinics, etc., but imagine what they'd have to do to stop atheism. besides, the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people. better than your one, that is, your opinion. also, i have branched out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now. and, what have they said? were you questions unbiased? keith, you would claim that my questions are biased the minute i posted them, because the answers agreed with me. everyone i have asked about the possible removal of the motto (the christian portion) has expressed regret about its loss, because they like it. however, when it is pointed out to them that a new motto will not be in the works, none have expressed the desire to rape, murder, pillage, etc., which you have basically claimed. so, you are able to convince them individually, but could you convince a whole room of them? a whole nation? as for the atheist portion (i know some around here), they have all expressed disgust with the motto. some noted being harassed by christians who used the motto to try to seem justified. and all would see it gone. yes, i'd be glad if it were gone to. i've never supported it. however, i think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored, contrasted with what *could* happen (an what may be likely). which christians designed the motto? does the motto say anything about jesus? why do you think that it refers *only* to christians? christians wrote it; christians think that their religion is right, and all others are wrong; therefore, why would they 'include' other religions in the realm of being correct? i doubt that any other religions were meant to be included. well, i am not clear on the religious convictions of francis scott key (the motto can be attributed to him), but it is at least clear that he believed in a god. and, surely there are a few christians that think as you say, but i don't think that most do. do you think that all christians actively despise other religions? most that i have met haven't and don't do so. no christian that i have queried thinks it means anything but them, and only them. why not ask some people of other faiths? sorry, i would, but christianity is just so awfully popular around here. suppose you could ask a few people? well, i have asked a hindu, moselem, and a few jews, and all of them think that it is applicable to them. of course, i can't say that these people (just some that i know pretty well) are accurate representations of their it is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any given issue. you are assuming that all the views were the same, and nothing leads to this conclusion. without evidence to the contrary, i doubt that there were dissenting opinions. you claim there were. provide some evidence for your assertion. well, i'd really like to, and i've tried, but i really don't know where to get access to _congressional records_ from the 1950's. can anyone help out here? comparing christians to nazis? interesting. only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs. no, again, the motto on the money doesn't cost you anything extra. however, if you abolished the motto, we'd all have to pay to have all the dies and plates redone. like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them. you now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again. ... also, i doubt that they use th3 same plates for more than a year's printing; this would make it easy to remove the motto (simply make next year's plates without it). your claim, evidently, is that they will have to pay extra somewhere. provide some evidence for this assertion. so, are you saying that they redesign the plates each year? anyway, your whole argument (conveniently deleted i see) was that the motto somehow costs us all a lot of money. this is just not correct. the ones i read didn't mention anything about jesus. i think the issue was concerning the distinction between religion and not. how could it be between religious and not religious? the motto refers to god; it is a religious motto. the question is whether or not it is only christian. you say it is more. i doubt this. provide some evidence for this assertion. that is to say, the religion of this country, and the non-religion of the ussr. that was what most of those quotes were about, and some included all atheists, in general, as well. i don't think that any of the quotes (although i seem to have lost them) mentioned anything at all about jesus. they advocated religion over non-religion. a specific religion was not you have missed this point. i said that the motto didn't say anything about anyone in particular. that is, the motto doesn't imply anything about *your* particular beliefs. it doesn't say that everyone trusts in some form of god, only that the nation on the whole does. we have been through this before. it's obvious it does not include me; this much is beyond doubt. your claim, again, is that the motto refers to more than christians. based on the facts that christianity says all other religions are wrong, and because it seems that the motto was written by christians, i doubt your claim. so, you are saying that all christians must believe that all other religions should be outlawed, just because they think they are wrong? that's silly. i think the flat-earthers are wrong, but i don't advocate their banishment. [...] based on this idea i doubt that any additional expense would even be incurred by removing the motto. provide some evidence for your claim that it would. i think that any such cost would be insignificant. i mentioned the slight cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by being on our currency. disregarding the digression of the other motto...if it is used for harassment, and no other purpose has been found for it, why should it not be removed? well, mottos in general don't really have purposes... i don't think it should be removed because i think the benefit would be outweighed by the and do you know what the vote was? were there other opinions? do you think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother atheists? do you think that this is what the majority of congress at the time had in mind? if you do, then show why. again, it is the opinion of the people who put it there that i am concerned with. then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress. again, it is not necessary that the complete majority shared the purpose of confronting 'godless communism' with this motto. why not? it is the majority that put it there. the general public probably does not know about the anti-atheist intent of a few people in the 50's either. i daresay more people remember the 50's than the time when key wrote the anthem. but do they remember the debate surrounding the motto? do they remember that some people intended it to be a message against atheists? why don't you include this in your little survey that you were conducting? you claim here that scientists would believe someone's claims. i doubt this. provide evidence for your assertion. what? should i ask some scientists the probability that something einstein said about relativity is worthy? i mean, if einstein said it, there's a good chance that it was right (at least at the time). as for the courts, the method scientists use can be applied. i need not agree with the court by default because of a 'good record.' you need not agree with them all of the time, but you would certainly think that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point. what? but you said you didn't agree with the court because they "allowed congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning." if you don't realize that something like this is external to the realm of the court's power, then how can i be confident that you know *anything* about the court's powers? i mean, if you don't know how the court works, how can you participate in a discussion of the court? a judge can go to speak before congress. and still you ignore the abortion gag rule, as you make your claims on abortion. no, i think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a supreme court justice to testify before congress during the consideration of a constitutional amendment. and, in order for the court to rule on something, a case usually must be mushrooms, flowers, trees, buildings, signs, whatever... the analogy is the same. just because something that i might find offensive is present doesn't mean that my rights are being violated. we are talking about something put there by people, keith...not a mushroom. no one caused that mushroom to exist, unless you're finding things offensive in a mushroom farm. yes, some mushrooms can be planted. and, i don't appreciate mushrooms on my pizza, either. this is not the case with the motto. and you're ignoring the harassment which is the only known result of the motto, and you're ignoring that somewhere along the line people were forced to put the motto there. who was forced to put the motto there? what do you mean? 
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 as for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist? not so. if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you blame the tiger? as far as i know, tigers are not sentient. if i were pushed into a pool with some dolphins and they attacked me, i might be inclined to blame the dolphins rather than the person doing the pushing, as (a) dolphins are not usually aggressive and (b) they seem to have well-developed brains and a capacity for abstract thought. as a matter of fact, tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes them. of course, if they are in a cage which is far too small, that might count as provocation... 
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 ( i am almost sure that zyklon-b is immediate and painless method of death. if not, insert soem other form. ) and, ethnic and minority groups have been killed, mutilated and exterminated through out history, so i guess it was not unusual. so, you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the us constitution? [ in so far, the punishment. i doubt they recieved what would be considered a "fair" trial by us standards. don't be so sure. look what happened to japanese citizens in the us during world war ii. if you're prepared to say "let's round these people up and stick them in a concentration camp without trial", it's only a short step to gassing them without trial. after all, it seems that the nazis originally only intended to imprison the jews; the final solution was dreamt up partly because they couldn't afford to run the camps because of the devastation caused by goering's total war. those who weren't gassed generally died of malnutrition or disease. 
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 (deletion) my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with. any strong atheists out there care to comment? humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent. it is one of the artifacts of human thought. the evidence for that is quite overwhelming. and the information content of the conceived is vanishing. in other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods. the concept is useless, and i don't have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that. no leap of faith required for me. your mileage may vary. yes i fully agree with that, but is it "i don't believe gods exist", or "i believe no gods exist"? as mandtbacka@finabo.abo.fi (mats andtbacka) pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean. unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak atheism, at least according to the faq: # atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god. # some atheists go further, and believe that god does not exist. the former is # often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong # atheism". # it is important to note the difference between these two positions. "weak # atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of god. "strong # atheism" is a positive belief that god does not exist. please do not # fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". (from mathew's "an introduction to atheism" version 1.2 last modified 5-apr-93) should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"? can it? tony lezard is tony@mantis.co.uk or tony%mantis.co.uk@uknet.ac.uk or things like tony%uk.co.mantis@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay or (last resort) arl10@phx.cam.ac.uk pgp 2.2 public key available on request. 
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 [deletia] i don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says "i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god" that, so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one _must_ be considered muslim by all muslims. so the phenomenon you're attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles. if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts. in the deletions somewhere, it mentioned something about chopping off of hands being a punishment for theft in saudi arabia. assuming this is so (i wouldn't know), and assuming it is done by people fitting your requirement for "muslim" (which i find highly likely), then would you please try to convince bobby mozumder that muslims chop people's hands come back when you've succeeded. disclaimer? "it's great to be young and insane!" 
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 "will" is "self-determination". in other words, god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god. all "will", therefore, is "free will". the above is probably not the most representative paragraph, but i thought i'd hop on, anyway... what strikes me as self-contradicting in the fable of lucifer's fall - which, by the way, i seem to recall to be more speculation than based on biblical text, but my ex rcism may be showing - is that, as benedikt pointed out, lucifer had perfect nature, yet he had the free will to "choose" evil. but where did that choice come we know from genesis that eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a tempter which many assume was satan, but how did lucifer discover, invent, create, call the action what you will, something that god had not given origin to? also, where in the bible is there mention of lucifer's free will? we make a big fuss about mankind having free will, but it strikes me as being an after-the-fact rationalisation, and in fact, like salvation, not one that all christians believe in identically. at least in my mind, salvation and free will are very tightly coupled, but then my theology was roman catholic... still, how do theologian explain lucifer's fall? if lucifer had perfect nature (did man?) how could he fall? how could he execute an act that (a) contradicted his nature and (b) in effect cause evil to exist for the first time? lucio de re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) - tab stops at four. 
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 my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with. any strong atheists out there care to comment? as far as i can tell, strong atheists are far outnumbered on alt.atheism by weak atheists. at the cost of repudiating the faq, i think too much is made of the strong vs weak atheism issue, although in the context of alt.atheism, where we're continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists "believe" in the non-existence of god, i think the separation is a valid one. to cover my arse, what i'm trying to say is that there is an infinitely grey area between weak and strong, as well as between strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism (i wish!). whereas i _logically_ can only support the weak atheist position, in effect i am a strong atheist (and wish i could be a mathematical one). to justify my strong atheist position i believe i need only show that the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny is faulty. if i read the faq correctly, no argument for the existence of god (generic, as represented by mainstream theologians) has ever been found to be unassailable. to me this is adequate evidence that the _real_god_ is undefinable (or at least no definition has yet been found to be watertight), which in turn i accept as sufficient to base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god. i'm a little fuzzy on the edges, though, so opinions are welcome (but perhaps we should change the thread subject). lucio de re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) - tab stops at four. 
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 why would the rushdie case be particularly legitimate? as i've said elsewhere on this issue, rushdie's actions had effects in islamic countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didn't commit a crime in an islamic country. actually, it is simple. a person p has committed a crime c in country x if p was within the borders of x at the time when c was committed. it doesn't matter if the physical manifestation of c is outside x. for instance, if i hack into nasa's ames research lab and delete all their files, i have committed a crime in the united kingdom. if the us authorities wish to prosecute me under us law rather than uk law, they have no automatic right to do so. this is why the net authorities in the us tried to put pressure on some sites in holland. holland had no anti-cracking legislation, and so it was viewed as a "hacker haven" by some us system administrators. similarly, a company called red hot television is broadcasting pornographic material which can be received in britain. if they were broadcasting in britain, they would be committing a crime. but they are not, they are broadcasting from denmark, so the british government is powerless to do anything about it, in spite of the apparent law-breaking. of course, i'm not a lawyer, so i could be wrong. more confusingly, i could be right in some countries but not in others... 
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 in cases of prostitution both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public, quite (deletion) no gregg, you cannot say a is lenient and a punishes severely in public. unless, of course, it is one of the exceptions implied by "almost all matters". that depends on the statistics and who is punished in public. if some power (for example, nothing islamic about it) allows men to rape women five times before blowing the rapist's head off in public then i'd call that leniency, wouldn't you? you have given that example. it is not lenient. end of argument. and chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either. it rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system without checking if they suit the description. and wasn't the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according to islamic law? while i don't approve of it, i think both the prostitute and the customer have the right to do what they do. in other words, punishing them is a violation of their rights. and to punish them severely in public is just another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many believe what you like. no, i even believe what i don't like. can you give better answers than that? have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims? in this case, i don't see why i should accept the complex ridden views of an oriental goatherd. ah, yes, i forget that the west is historically so much without sexual neurosis :) "oriental goatherd", _really_ intellectual. a fact, if memory serves. and most will see the connection between the primitive machism in the orient and in islam. if people agree on having sex it is fine. and i would assume that a god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it huh? ever heard of aids? (of course you'll probably go on to say that god must be evil because he allows the disease to exist, bla bla). as usually you miss the point. aids is neither spread only through sex nor necessarily spread by having sex. futher, the point is, a very important point, the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of aids. it is even stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex. the consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of aids. please note that the idea that everybody would end up with aids when sex is not controlled is completely counterfactual. and since you have brought up the point, is your god evil or not? 
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 i didn't have time to read the rest of the posting, but i had to respond to this. i am absolutely not a "messianic jew". another mistake. sorry, i should have read alt.,messianic more carefully. 
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 bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational; it is other people who determine that by examining their arguments. no! i expected it! you've set yourself up a wonderful little world where a bigot is whomever you say it is. this is very comfortable for you--imagine, never having to entertain an argument against your belief system. simply accuse the person making of being a bigot. well, this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over into alt.atheism, where we spend most of our time entertaining arguments against our belief system, without resorting to accusing others of bigotry. it's somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry happens in this instance to have originated in rec.scouting, since i always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity. i understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who happen to be of a different race, religion, ethnic background, sex, or other inconsequential characteristics. all the evidence i've seen indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are exactly such inconsequential characteristics. thus, pending further evidence, i conclude that those who show prejudice against such people are bigots, and organizations that exclude such people are jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 (deletion) i will argue that your latter statement, "i believe that no gods exist" does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a positive statement that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying i don't know and therefore don't believe in them and don't not believe in then (weak atheism). once again, to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist. i still maintain the position, even after reading the faqs, that strong atheism requires faith. no it in the way it is usually used. in my view, you are saying here that driving a car requires faith that the car drives. for me it is a conclusion, and i have no more faith in it than i have in the premises and the argument used. but first let me say the following. we might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and "existence". i, as a christian, maintain that god does not exist. to exist means to have being in space and time. god does not have being - god is being. kierkegaard once said that god does not exist, he is eternal. with this said, i feel it's rather pointless to debate the so called "existence" of god - and that is not what i'm doing here. i believe that god is the source and ground of being. when you say that "god does not exist", i also accept this statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. however, in what follows i will use the phrase "the existence of god" in it's 'usual sense' - and this is the sense that i think you are using it. i would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of god". no, that's a word game. the term god is used in a different way usually. when you use a different definition it is your thing, but until it is commonly accepted you would have to say the way i define god is ... and that does not exist, it is existence itself, so i say it does not exist. interestingly, there are those who say that "existence exists" is one of the indubitable statements possible. further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are implying more with it, in which case your definition and your argument so far are incomplete, making it a fallacy. (deletion) one can never prove that god does or does not exist. when you say that you believe god does not exist, and that this is an opinion "based upon observation", i will have to ask "what observtions are you refering to?" there are no observations - pro or con - that are valid here in establishing a positive belief. (deletion) where does that follow? aren't observations based on the assumption that something exists? and wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption "god is" is meaningful. if not, i would reject that concept anyway. so, where is your evidence for that "god is" is meaningful at some level? 
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 this (frayed) thread has turned into a patented alt.atheism 5-on-1 ping-pong game, and i don't have any strong disagreement, so i'll try to stick to the one thing i don't quite follow about the argument: it seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the bible was "enlightened for its times" (i.e. closer to what we would consider morally good based on our standards and past experience) on the one hand [i hope this summarizes this argument adequately], and on the other hand: }|> }disclaimer: i'm speaking from the jewish perspective, }|> }where "the bible" means what many call the old testament, }|> }and where the interpretation is not necessarily the }|> }raw text, but instead the court cases, commentaries }|> }and traditions passed down through jewish communities. }|> this seems the crux to me: if you judge the bible according to a long }|> line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day, }|> rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact, then of course }|> it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values. }but if that's how the bible is actually being used today, }shouldn't that be how we should judge it? if most people }use scissors to cut paper, shouldn't consumer's reports }test scissors for paper-cutting ability, even though }scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth? that's possibly a good way to judge the use of the bible in teaching jewish morality today, but it hardly seems fair to claim that this highly-interpreted version is what was "enlightened for its times". to (attempt to) extend the analogy, this is like saying that the original scissor-makers were unusually advanced at paper-cutting for their times, even though they only ever cut cloth, and had never even heard of paper. i'm not arguing that the bible is "disgusting", though some of the history depicted in it is, by modern standards. however, history is full of similar abuses, and i don't think the biblical accounts are worse than their contemporaries--or possibly ours. on the other hand, i don't know of any reason to think the history described in the bible shows *less* abuse than their contemporaries, or ours. that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic interpretations of that history is interesting, but i still don't think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it to attack condemnation of the original history. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men. compare that with how homos are raised. do a study and you will get my oh, bobby. you're priceless. did i ever tell you that? my policy with bobby's posts, should anyone give a damn, is to flick through the thread at high speed, searching for posts of bobby's which have generated a whole pile of followups, then go in and extract the hilarious quote inevitably present for .sig purposes. works for me. for the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether bobby's for real, you betcha. welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse. i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below. is anyone (keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff? "in allah's infinite wisdom, the universe was created from nothing, just by saying "be", and it became. therefore allah exists." --- bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah, #1 "wait. you just said that humans are rarely reasonable. doesn't that contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and reason? this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false." --- bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah, #2 "plus, to the believer, it would be contradictory to the quran for allah not to exist." --- bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah, #3 and now "one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men. compare that with how homos are raised. do a study and you will get my point." -- bobby mozumder being islamically rigorous on alt.atheism mmmmm. quality *and* quantity from the new voice of islam (pbuh). simon clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk department of computer science tel (+44) 203 523296 university of warwick fax (+44) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al, u.k. 
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 the point has been raised and has been answered. roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue; specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight"). please define "morally straight". and, don't even try saying that "straight", as it is used here, implies only hetersexual behavior. [ eg: "straight" as in the slang word opposite to "gay" ] this is alot like "family values". everyone is talking about them, but misteriously, no one knows what they are. "one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say "mom", because of the love of their mom. it makes for more virile men." bobby mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu ) april 4, 1993 the one true muslim left in the world. 
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 (deletion) in other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods. the concept is useless, and i don't have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that. yes i fully agree with that, but is it "i don't believe gods exist", or "i believe no gods exist"? as mandtbacka@finabo.abo.fi (mats andtbacka) pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean. for me, it is a "i believe no gods exist" and a "i don't believe gods exist". in other words, i think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere with this world are false or meaningless. in ontology, one can fairly conclude that when "a exist" is meaningless a does not exist. under the pragmatic definition of truth, "a exists" is meaningless makes a exist even logically false. a problem with such statements is that one can't disprove a subjective god by definition, and there might be cases where a subjective god would even make sense. the trouble with most god definitions is that they include some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting all. believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others. (deletion) should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"? can it? honestly, i don't see the problem. 
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 the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group. c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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 and what about that revelation thing, charley? if you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well, it's obviously a risk one takes. many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive. i'm not an objectivist, so i'm not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization. the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience. one can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable). an analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is that the "better" descriptive language is not available. and in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish this word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you can show how reliability can be determined. c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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 [reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (e. h. welbon)] there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me what it is). therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this i cannot accept. i accept nothing on blind faith. invisible pink flying unicorns! need i say more? ...i harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god existing or not. some folks call this agnosticism. it does not suffer from "blind faith" at all. i think of it as "don't worry, be happy". for many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration: what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing? there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist. most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith. faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence. it is a reliable way of knowing? could you expand on your definition of knowing? it seems a bit monolithic here, but i'm not sure that you intend that. don't we need, for example, to distinguish between "knowing" 2 plus 2 equals 4 (or 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples), the french "knowing" that jerry lewis is an auteur, and what it means to say we "know" what socrates said? this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell i like this epigraph. perhaps the issue is learning which, if any, absurdities merit further exploration...gene 
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 my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances. it can be painless, so it isn't cruel. and, it has occurred frequently since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual. i don't take issue with the numbers. a single innocent life taken is one too many. but, innocents die due to many causes. why have you singled out accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with? 
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 }>for several years i've periodically asked charley wingate to explain this }>mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically }>when he pops up every few months. his reluctance to explain indicates to me }>that it's not so hot. }i've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you }might have caught on by now. and there is no "alternative", but the point }is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either. the problems of metaphysical }and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or i should say, humans cannot }solve them. if there is truly no alternative, then you have no basis whatsoever for your claim. the usual line here, which you call "a prejudgment of atheism", and dispute, is that reason is all we have. here you admit that you have no alternative, no possible basis for the claim that there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in religious knowledge, except possibly that reason conflicts with "religious knowledge". this sounds very much like "i can't provide a rational defense for my belief, but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it may be false". i hope it makes you happy, but your repeated and unfounded assertions to this effect don't advance your cause. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 and what about that revelation thing, charley? if you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well, it's obviously a risk one takes. ah, now here is the core question. let me suggest a scenario. we will grant that a god exists, and uses revelation to communicate with humans. (said revelation taking the form (paraphrased from your own words) 'this infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck, makes him take dictation, and then hides away for a few hundred years'.) now, there exists a human who has not personally experienced a revelation. this person observes that not only do these revelations seem to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the observed world (which is all this person has ever seen), but there are many mutually contradictory claims of revelation. now, based on this, can this person be blamed for concluding, absent a personal revelation of their own, that there is almost certainly nothing to this 'revelation' thing? i'm not an objectivist, so i'm not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization. the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience. one can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable). an analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is that the "better" descriptive language is not available. absent this better language, and absent observations in support of the claims of revelation, can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing? here is what i am driving at: i have thought a long time about this. i have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity, it is nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that i am familiar with. now, if there does happen to be, say, a christian god, will i be held accountable for such an honest mistake? ray ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu "the meek can *have* the earth. the rest of us are going to the stars!" - robert a. heinlein 
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 [deleted, to get to the point:] therefore, in a nutshell, my opinion is that pre-marital sex makes the likelihood of extra-marital sex more probable. furthermore, in my opinion, extra-marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads to greater divorce rates. this in turn, in my opinion, creates trauma and a less stable environment for children, who are then, in my opinion, more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression, etc. and thus, sex outside of marriage is, in the long run, harmful to i think that you are drawing links where there are none - having sex before marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage. the issue as i see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on your spouse, and how confident you are about yourself. in addition, what someone does within their marriage is their own business, not mine, and not yours. i have witnessed strong relationships that incorporate extra-marital sex. i would agree with your assertion about children - children should not be witness to such confusing relationships - if adultery is stressful to adults, which i assume it in general is, how can we expect children to understand it? where is the evidence for my opinions? at the moment, there are just generalities i can cite. for example, i read that in the 20th century, the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing in western societies (probably what i was reading referred particularly to the usa). similarly, one can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage in this century in western societies -- particularly with the "sexual revolution" of the 60's, but even before that i think (otherwise the "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible), particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage. i propose that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it. why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression? you can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. i mean, you can, and people have, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis. at best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people my argument is mainly a proposal of what i think is a plausible argument against extra-marital sex -- one which i personally believe has some truth. my main purpose for posting it here is to show that a _plausible_ argument can be made against extra-marital sex. at this stage i am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or anything like that, just that it is plausible. to try to convince you all of this particular point of view, i would probably have to do a lot of work researching what has been done in this field, etc., in order to gather further evidence, which i simply do not have time to do now. also note that i said that i think extra-marital sex is "a prime cause" (in my opinion) of the generally greater levels of psychological problems, especially depression, in western societies. i am not saying it is "the prime cause" or "the only cause", just "a prime cause" -- i.e. one of the significant contributions to this trend. i think when you say you think my view is simplistic, you have forgotten this -- i admit that there are probably other factors, but i do think that extra-marital sex (and, imo, subsequent destabilization of the family) is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like depression in western society this century. fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 my point of view is that the argument "all sexism is bad" just simply does not hold. let me give you an example. how about permitting a woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy -- should that be allowed? it happens to be sexist, as it gives a particular right only to women. nevertheless, despite the fact that it is sexist, i completely support such a law, because i think it is just. fred, you're exasperating... sexism, like racialism, is a form of discrimination, using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny one portion of the population the same rights as another. in this context, your example above holds no water whatsoever: there's no discrimination in "denying" men maternity leave, in fact i'm quite convinced that, were anyone to experiment with male pregnancy, it would be possible for such a future father to take leave on medical grounds. okay... i argued this thoroughly about 3-4 weeks ago. men and women are different ... physically, physiologically, and psychologically. much recent evidence for this statement is present in the book "brainsex" by anne moir and david jessel. i recommend you find a copy and read it. their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic and is well referenced. now, if women and men are different in some ways, the law can only adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women are different. maternity leave is an example of this -- it takes into account that women get pregnant. it does not give women the same rules it would give to men, because to treat women like it treats men in this instance would be unjust. this is just simply an obvious example of where men and women are intrinsically different!!!!! now, people make the _naive_ argument that sexism = oppression. however, maternity leave is sexist because men do not get pregnant. men do not have the same access to leave that women do (not to the same extent or degree), and therefore it is sexist. no matter however much a man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave, he never can. and therefore the law is sexist. no man can have access to maternity leave, no matter how hard he tries to get pregnant. i hope this is clear. maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just, because the sexism here just reflects the "sexism" of nature in making men and women different. there are many other differences between men and women which are far more subtle than pregnancy, and to find out more of these i recommend you have a look at the book "brainsex". your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious. if men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically become women! to have a womb and the other factors required for pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is -- so your argument, when it is examined, is seen to be fallacious. you are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that women can have if they also become women -- which actually just supports my statement that maternity leave is sexist. the discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities because of her (legally determined) sexual inferiorities. as i understand most religious sexual discrimination, and i doubt that islam is exceptional, the female is not allowed into the priestly caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to rights which, as an equal human, she ought to be entitled to. there is no official priesthood in islam -- much of this function is taken by islamic scholars. there are female islamic scholars and female islamic scholars have always existed in islam. an example from early islamic history is the prophet's widow, aisha, who was recognized in her time and is recognized in our time as an islamic scholar. no matter how sweetly you coat it, part of the role of religions seems, historically, to have served the function of oppressing the female, whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where there is no opportunity for self-improvement, or by denying her access to the same facilities the males are offered. you have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions, and i dispute it. i could go on and on about women in islam, etc., but i recently reposted something here under the heading "islam and women" -- if it is still at your news-site i suggest you read it. it is reposted from soc.religion.islam, so if it has disappeared from alt.atheism it still might be in soc.religion.islam (i forgot what its original title was though). i will email it to you if you like. the roman catholic church is the most blatant of the culprit, because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy, but the other religious are no different: let a woman attempt to escape her role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her. your statement that "other religions are no different" is, i think, a statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than christianity and perhaps judaism. i'll accept your affirmation that islam grants women the same rights as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the same position as (say) khomeini and there are no artificial religious or social obstacles on her path to achieve this. aisha, who i mentioned earlier, was not only an islamic scholar but also was, at one stage, a military leader. show me the equivalent of hillary rhodam-clinton within islam, and i may consider discussing the issue with you. the prophet's first wife, who died just before the "hijra" (the prophet's journey from mecca to medina) was a successful businesswoman. lucio, you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions. fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 benedikt rosenau writes, with great authority: if it is contradictory it cannot exist. "contradictory" is a property of language. if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist i will object to definitions as reality. if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we've come to something which is plainly false. failures in description are merely failures in description. how about this description: "an object that is, at one time, both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle"? i hold that no object satisfying this description could exist. the description is inconsistent, and hence describes an object that could not exist. now, suppose someone pointed to a bicycle, and said, "that object is, at one time, both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle." this does not mean that the bicycle does not exist, it measn that the description was incorrectly applied. the atheist says, "the descriptions of god that i have been presented with are contradictory, and hence describe something that cannot exist." now, your position (so far as i can gather) is that god exists, but the descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions of it. this is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle, and, when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one, are told that it is a "euclidean circle-square". can they be blamed for doubting rather strongly that this 'bicycle' exists at all? (i'm not an objectivist, remember.) no kidding. :-> ray ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu "the meek can *have* the earth. the rest of us are going to the stars!" - robert a. heinlein 
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 for the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether bobby's for real, you betcha. welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse. i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below. is anyone (keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff? sorry, i was, but i somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last couple of months or so. however, thanks to the efforts of bobby, it is being replenished rather quickly! here is a recent favorite: "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group. i agree, we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of god. "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 sorry, bill, i had to clear this up. there may be good evolutionary arguments against homosexuality, but these don't qualify. [deletions] : |> it would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function [deletions] : so *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children? : hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated. obviously you keep to the : monty python song: "every sperm is sacred". and if, as *you* say, it has : a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own : arguement, natural. consider the context, i'm talking about an evolutionary function. one of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context. oh? i guess all those social insects (e.g. ants, bees, etc.) which have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on the way out, huh? : these days is just ain't true! people can decide whether or not to have : children and when. soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's : another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision. again by : your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they : must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children. both are : as "unnatural" as each other. yet another non-sequitur. sex is an evolutionary function that exists for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. that homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose. i refer you to the bonobos, a species of primate as closeley related to humans as chimpanzees (that is, very closely). they have sex all the time, homosexual as well as heterosexual. when the group finds food, they have sex. before the go to sleep at night, they have sex. after they escape from or fight off prdators, they have sex. sex serves a very important social function above and beyond reproduction in this species. a species closely related to humans. there is some indication that sex performs a social function in humans, as well, but even if not, this shows that such a function is not *impossible*. ray ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu "the meek can *have* the earth. the rest of us are going to the stars!" - robert a. heinlein 
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 yesterday, i got the chance to hear kurt vonnegut speak at the university of new hampshire. vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov as the (honorary?) head of the american humanist association. (vonnegut is an atheist, and so was asimov) before asimov's funeral, vonnegut stood up and said about asimov, "he's in heaven now," which ignited uproarious laughter in the room. (from the people he was speaking to around the time of the funeral) "it's the funniest thing i could have possibly said to a room full of humanists," vonnegut said at yesterday's lecture. if vonnegut comes to speak at your university, i highly recommend going to see him even if you've never read any of his novels. in my opinion, he's the greatest living humorist. (greatest living humanist humorist as well) 
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 could you explain what any of this pertains to? is this a position statement on something or typing practice? and why are you using my name, do you think this relates to anything i've said and if so, what. could you explain what any of the above pertains to? is this a position statement on something or typing practice? "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 : wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. if you state that : one of the books in your room is blue, i certainly do not need as much : evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed : leapard in your bed. [ and i don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ] if the issue is, "what is truth" then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent. if the issue is, "what are the consequences if such and such -is- true", then truth is irrelevent. which is it to i disagree: every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence and support, before one can believe it. there are a miriad of factors for each individual. as we are all different, we quite obviously require different levels of evidence. as one pointed out, one's history is important. while in fussr, one may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans. one would need more evidence, than if one lived in the united states. the only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the us, is if the individual always wear business suits, etc. the degree of the effect upon the world, and the strength of the claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary. when determining the level of evidence one needs, it is most certainly relevent what the consequences of the proposition are. if the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, please explain why one would not accept: the electro-magnetic force of attraction between two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their distance apart. remember, if the consequences of the law are not relevent, then we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof. if one of the consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of affairs, or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law, they are irrelevent when theorizing about the "truth" of the law. given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, including the consequence of self-contradiction or contradiction with the state of affiars, how are we ever able to judge what is true or not; let alone find "the truth"? by the way, what is "truth"? please define before inserting it in the conversation. please explain what "truth" or "truth" is. i do think that anything is ever known for certain. even if there is a "truth", we could never possibly know if it were. i find the concept to be meaningless. "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing. an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything. there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is this posts contains too many fallacies to respond too. 1) the abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of you have not shown this. you have not even attempted to. however, the existance of an omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals.* * posted over five months ago. no one has been able to refute it, nor give any reasonable reasons against it. "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 : then what would it have to do with "in the universe"? you theists : cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe : are two different places. put god outside the universe and you : subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the : universe, put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of : physics on it. 1. god is outside the universe. 2. things outside the universe do not have 'the ability to interact with the inside of the universe'. 3. therefore god cannot interact inside the universe. (2) has no basis whatsoever. you seem to have positive knowledge about this. (2) is a corrallary of (1). the negation of (2) would contridict (1). : although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules : governing the inside of the universe, we expect that there are no : contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics. : on the other hand, your notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and : infinitely benevolent god, is not subject to physical laws: you : attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of : them, beyond measurement. to me, beyond measurement means it can : have no measurable effect on reality, so it cannot interact: ergo, : your god is irrelevant. 1. god is beyond measure. 2. beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on 3. therefore god cannot have a measurable effect on reality. (2) has no basis whatsoever. (2) is a corrallary of (1) the negation of (2) would contradict (1). "satan and the angels do not have freewill. they do what god tells them to do. " s.n. mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 
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 if it is contradictory it cannot exist. "contradictory" is a property of language. if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist no need to correct it, it stands as it is said. i will object to definitions as reality. if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we've come to something which is plainly false. failures in description are merely failures in description. you miss the point entirely. things defined by contradictory language do not exist. though something existing might be meant, conclusions drawn from the description are wrong, unless there is the possibility to find the described, and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of the described then. another possibility is to drop the contradictory part, but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well. (i'm not an objectivist, remember.) neither am i. but either things are directly sensed (which includes some form of modelling, by the way) or they are used in modelling. using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of. wonder why? we remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed as contradictory. an important point is that either one manages to resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions, or one will fall in the garbage in garbage out trap. 
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 (references: deleted to move this to a new thread) }rushdie is, however, as i understand, a muslim. }the fact that he's a british citizen does not preclude his being muslim. rushdie was an atheist (to use local terminology, not to put words in his mouth) at the time of writing tsv and at the time of the fatwa in february 1989.[...] well, if he was born muslim (i am fairly certain he was) then he _is_ muslim until he explicitly renounces islam. so far as i know he has never explicitly renounced islam, though he may have been in extreme doubt about the existence of god. being muslim is a legal as well as intellectual issue, according to islam. "to put it as simply as possible: *i am not a muslim*.[...] i do not accept the charge of apostacy, because i have never in my adult life affirmed any belief, and what one has not affirmed one can not be said to have apostasized from. the islam i know states clearly that 'there can be no coercion in matters of religion'. the many muslims i respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their faith *purely by virtue of birth*, and that a person who freely chose not to be a muslim could therefore be put to death." salman rushdie, "in good faith", 1990 "god, satan, paradise, and hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth year, when i quite abruptly lost my faith. [...]and afterwards, to prove my new-found atheism, i bought myself a rather tasteless ham sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of the swine. no thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] from that day to this i have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person." salman rushdie, "in god we trust", 1985 [i] think the rushdie affair has discredited islam more in my eyes than khomeini -- i know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all religions, but even apparently "moderate" muslims have participated or refused to distance themselves from the witch-hunt against rushdie. yes, i think this is true, but there khomenei's motivations are quite irrelevant to the issue. the fact of the matter is that rushdie made false statements (fiction, i know, but where is the line between fact and fiction?) about the life of mohammad. only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the nature of the novel could think such a thing. i'll accept it (reluctantly) from mobs in pakistan, but not from you. what is presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the actual mohammad. what's worse, the novel doesn't present the mahound/mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories of islam; in particular, there is no "lewd" misrepresentation of his life or that of his wives. that is why few people rush to his defense -- he's considered an absolute fool for his writings in _the satanic verses_. don't hold back; he's considered an apostate and a blasphemer. however, it's not for his writing in _the satanic verses_, but for what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is contained in that book. i have yet to find *one single muslim* who has convinced me that they have read the book. some have initially claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book than a superficial newsweek story might impart, and all have made factual misstatements about events in the book. if you wish to understand the reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of "the satanic verses" [...] see the penguin paperback by rafiq zakariyah called _mohammad and the quran_. i'll keep an eye out for it. i have a counter-proposal: i suggest that you see the viking hardcover by salman rushdie called _the satanic verses_. perhaps then you'll understand. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 |> >> >>- the earth is evil because satan rules over it. |> >> > this is a new one to me. i guess it's been a while since a witness |> >> > bothered with me. are they implying that satan is omniscient? you |> >> > might try tricking them into saying that satan is 'all-knowing' and |> >> > then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are |> >> > self-contradictary. |> >> no, satan is not omniscient, but he does hold dominion over the earth |> >> according to christian theology (note, not to be confused with jw's |> >> theology). |> > what are the standard theologies on who/what created satan, |> > and why? |> orthodox christian theology states that god created lucifer (satan) |> along with the other angels, presumably because he wanted beings to |> celebrate (glorify) existence and life (and thereby, god) along with |> him. actually the whys and wherefores of god's motivations for |> creating the angels are not a big issue within christian theology. |> but god created lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with |> the other angels free moral will. lucifer was a high angel (perhaps |> the highest) with great authority. it seems that his greatness caused |> him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or |> greater than god. he forgot his place as a created being. he exalted |> himself above god, and thereby evil and sin entered creation. actually, the story goes that lucifer refused to bow before man as god commanded him to. lucifer was devoted to god. oh yeah, there is nothing in genesis that says the snake was anything more than a snake (well, a talking one...had legs at the time, too). i don't think pointing out contradictions in stories is the best way to show the error in theology: if they think a supernatural entity kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a fruit that gave them special powers...well, they might not respond well to reason and logic. :^) brian /-|-\ 
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 |> there has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of |> marriage. |> where is the evidence for my opinions? at the moment, there are just |> generalities i can cite. for example, i read that in the 20th century, |> the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from |> depression has been steadily climbing in western societies (probably |> what i was reading referred particularly to the usa). similarly, one |> can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage |> in this century in western societies -- particularly with the "sexual |> revolution" of the 60's, but even before that i think (otherwise the |> "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible), |> particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently |> christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage. i propose |> that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society |> (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are |> linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. i cannot |> provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis |> seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it. |> fred rice <-- a muslim, giving his point of view. |> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au i think this is a big leap sex->depression. one example is myself, where no sex->depression :) but, seriously 1) promiscuity is on a decline, depression is not and 2) it might be more reasonable to say depression->promiscuity. i think depression is more likely to come from emotional problems (relationships, family, job, friends) and promiscuity is used as an escape. since i see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an emotional bond, i don't see a problem with sex before (not outside of) marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as what is expected from a married couple. of course, this is just my opinion. brian /-|-\ 
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 and what about that revelation thing, charley? if you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well, it's obviously a risk one takes. i see, it is not rational, but it is intellectual. does madness qualify as intellectual engagement, too? many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive. i'm not an objectivist, so i'm not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization. the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience. one can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable). exactly why science uses mathematics. qm representation in natural language is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical terminology. nor is it supposed to be the truth, as opposed to the representation of gods or religions in ordinary language. admittedly, not every religion says so, but a fancy side effect of their inept representations are the eternal hassles between religions. and qm allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will be agreed upon as being similar. show me something similar in religion. an analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is that the "better" descriptive language is not available. with the effect that the models presented are useless. and one can argue that the other way around, namely that the only reason metaphysics still flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified - showing that it is bogus. and in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish this word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you can show how reliability can be determined. haven't you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can be acheived respectively determined? 
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 "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." more seriously, this is just a high-falutin' way of saying "i don't believe what you're saying". are you making a meta-argument here? in any case, you are wrong. think of those invisible pink unicorns. also, the existence if jesus is not an extradinary claim. i was responding to the "historical accuracy... of biblical claims", of which the existence of jesus is only one, and one that was not even mentioned in my post. you may want to complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims (and i won't argue otherwise), but that is a different issue. wrong. that was exactly the issue. go back and read the context included within my post, and you'll see what i mean. now that i've done you the kindness of responding to your questions, please do the same for me. answer the charley challenges. your claim that they are of the "did not!/ did so!" variety is a dishonest dodge that i feel certain fools only one person. --dave wood 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51303">
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 you will ignore any criticism of your logic, or any possible incongruenties in your stance? you will not answer any questions on the validity of any opinion and/or facts you state? when i have to start saying "that's not what i said", and the response is "did so!", there's no reason to continue. if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position, then they cannot be argued with. but of course your version of your position has been included in the charley challenges, so your claim above is a flat-out lie. further, only last week you claimed that you "might not" answer the challenges because you were turned off by "included text". so which is it, do you want your context included in my articles or not? come to think of it, this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next challenges post. by the way, i've kept every bloody thing that you've written related to this thread, and will be only too pleased to re-post any of it to back my position. you seem to have forgotten that you leave an electronic paper trail on the net. this is the usual theist approach. no matter how many times a certain argument has been disproven, shown to be non-applicable or non-sequitur; they keep cropping up- time after time. speaking of non-sequiturs, this has little to do with what i just said. and have some sauce for the goose: some of the "disproof" is fallacies repeated over and over (such as the "law of nature" argument someone posted recently). now, now, let's not change the subject. wouldn't it be best to finish up the thread in question before you begin new ones? --dave wood 
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 new in this version: challenge #5, plus an addendum summarizing charley's responses to-date.. *** this is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage *** charley wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently *** specious claims. i'll continue to re-post periodically until *** he answers them, publicly indicates that he won't answer them, *** stops posting to alt.atheism, the alt.atheism community tells *** me to stop, or i get totally bored. i apologize for the *** somewhat juvenile nature of this approach, but i'm at a loss *** to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and *** seeming intellectual dishonesty. *** this is re-post #3. i can't help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your previous posts. i submit that you don't answer them because you cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic, and i once again challenge you to prove me wrong. to make the task as easy for you as possible, i'll present concise re-statements of some of the questions that you have failed to answer, in the hope that you may address them one at a time for all to see. should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period, i will re-post this article, with suitable additions and deletions, at such time that i notice a post by you on another topic. i will repeat this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or you cease to post to this newsgroup. i would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these questions previously and your answer missed my notice. if you can be kind enough to re-post or e-mail such articles, i will be only too pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question, and remove it from this list. now, to the questions... 1. after claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological patterns that you proposed, then semi-retracting that claim by stating that you weren't referring to *all* atheists, i asked you to name some atheists who you feel don't fit your patterns, to show that you indeed were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of. you failed to do so. please do so now. question: can you name any a.a posters who do not fit into your here is the context for the question: this is not true for everyone on this board, and you are out of line in assuming that it is. you, however, deleted the text further along where i said that i didn't mean to imply that everybody's experience was along the same lines. whether or not you *mean* to make such implications, you do so allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint: can you name those atheists that you've come across who *do not* fit into the patterns that you theorize? 2. you have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that "senses and reason are all we have to go by", and when pressed, you have implied that we have an alternative called revelation. i have repeatedly asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses and reason. you failed to do so. please do so now. question: can you explain what is revelation and how one can experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent here is the context for the question: revelation is not reason, and if we do have revelation, then reasoning is not all we have. first, show me that revelation exists. second, if revelation is not perceived through the senses, how exactly is it perceived? according to my webster's, revelation is "an act of revealing or communicating divine truth." now, tell me how such a thing can be revealed/ communicated other than via the senses? tell me how you can interpret this revelation other than with reason, that is, using your brain to interpret what you are sensing. when i say there is no way for a human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as interpreted by reason (your brain), it is because this is the simple truth. if you have another mechanism of interface, by all means, share it with us. then later... you cannot escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is our senses and our reason, period. again, this is indefensible. no, it is simple truth. i challenge you to show me otherwise. then later... few mystics will agree to this assertion, and the common defense of redefining "senses" to absorb (for instance) mystical experiences is begs the question of whether some senses are better than others. i allow you the broadest definition of senses, to make things easier for you. now, show me that "mystical experiences" exist. remember, you aren't allowed to go by testimony of others (e.g., mystics), since you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable - you know, tainted by my own bias. further, once these mystical thingies are absorbed, show me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of interpretation via that person's reasoning capabilities. i challenge you to show me these things. if you cannot do so, you might as well give up the fight. then later... let me reiterate, you have not explained your interpretation of your experiences, so it is not possible for me to have attacked them. in point of fact, i specifically challenged you to explain this revelation stuff that you were talking about, and i note for the record that you appear to have declined my challenge. *what* is it? *how* is it sensed? *how* is it interpreted? and *how* does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit of our senses and reasoning abilities? you have answered none of these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims. if you can't answer them, your claims are entirely specious. 3. you have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by a.a posters are unverifiable and fantastical. i asked you to identify one such claim that i have made. you have failed to do so. please do so now. question: have i made any claims at all that are unverifiable and fantastical? if so, please repeat them. here is the context for the question: i must thank david wood a most sensitive and intelligent (if wrong :-)) then later... likewise, the reference to "unverifiable, fantastical claims" represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group. give me your address and i'll be pleased to send you a dictionary. failing that, can you name one claim that i have made that is in any sense unverifiable or fantastical? i demand that you retract this statement if you cannot offer up evidence. if you follow your usual pattern of ignoring the challenge, then you are simply an asshole. 4. first you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as a result of reason, then later you stated that if one accepted the "axioms" of reason that one couldn't help but become atheist. i asked you to explain the contradiction. your only response was a statement that the question was incoherent, an opinion not shared by others that i have asked, be they atheist or theist. you have failed to answer the question. please do so now. question: do you retract your claim that a.a posters have not become atheists as a result of reason, despite their testimony to that effect? if you don't retract that claim, do you retract the subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably result in atheism? here is the context for the question: [first quote] ...we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is based on reason... it is up to atheists to prove it to me... [second quote] ...but i do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with an atheistic point of view. 5. first, you claimed that you would (probably) not answer these challenges because they contained too much in the way of "included text" from previous posts. later, you implied that you wouldn't respond because i was putting words in your mouth. please clarify this seeming contradiction. question: do you prefer to respond to challenges that include context from your own posts, or that i paraphrase your positions in order to avoid "included text"? here is the context for the question: first you said: my ordinary rules are that i don't read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen. these are not rules of morality, but practicality. then later... if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position, then they cannot be argued with. as usual, your responses are awaited with anticipation. --dave wood p.s., for the record, below is a compilation of charley's responses to these challenges to date. 3/18/93 this makes no sense to me at all; it gives the appearance either of utter incoherence, or of answering some question of mr. wood's imagination. 3/31/93 (#1) mr. wood, i do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on the net requires any response whatsoever. at some point i might read and respond to your article, and then again, i might not. my ordinary rules are that i don't read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen. these are not rules of morality, but practicality. 3/31/93 (#2) i left out something else i don't respond to. utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments (meta-arguments, as some call them). 4/3/93 when i have to start saying "that's not what i said", and the response is "did so!", there's no reason to continue. if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position, then they cannot be argued with. 
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 i think an objective morality does exist, but that most flavors of morality are only approximations to it. once again, a natural or objective morality is fairly easily defined, as long as you have a goal in mind--that is, what is the purpose of this morality. maybe i'm not quite getting what you mean by this, but i think objective morality is an oxymoron. by definition, it seems, any _goal_ oriented issue like this is subjective by nature. i don't get how you're using the word objective. but, the goal need not be a subjective one. for instance, the goal of natural morality is the propogation of a species, perhaps. it wasn't really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions to this were necessary. intelligent animals have different needs than the others, and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more complicated than "the law of the jungle." i don't think that self-actualization is so subjective as you might think. and, by objectivity, i am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be carried out completely. 
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 i have a request for those who would like to see charley wingate respond to the "charley challenges" (and judging from my e-mail, there appear to be quite a few of you.) it is clear that mr. wingate intends to continue to post tangential or unrelated articles while ingoring the challenges themselves. between the last two re-postings of the challenges, i noted perhaps a dozen or more posts by mr. wingate, none of which answered a single challenge. it seems unmistakable to me that mr. wingate hopes that the questions will just go away, and he is doing his level best to change the subject. given that this seems a rather common net.theist tactic, i would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers, in the following manner: 1. ignore any future articles by mr. wingate that do not address the challenges, until he answers them or explictly announces that he refuses to do so. --or-- 2. if you must respond to one of his articles, include within it something similar to the following: "please answer the questions posed to you in the charley challenges." really, i'm not looking to humiliate anyone here, i just want some honest answers. you wouldn't think that honesty would be too much to ask from a devout christian, would you? nevermind, that was a rhetorical question. --dave wood 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51309">
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 : mr connor's assertion that "more complex" == later in paleontology : is simply incorrect. many lineages are known in which whole : structures are lost -- for example, snakes have lost their legs. : cave fish have lost their eyes. some species have almost completely : lost their males. kiwis are descended from birds with functional : wings. the statements i made were illustrative of the inescapably anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process. there is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other than teleological, that is my whole point. even those who have reason to believe they understand evolution (biologists for instance) tend to personify nature and i can't help but wonder if it's because of the limits of the language or the nature of nature. 
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 : wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. if you state that : one of the books in your room is blue, i certainly do not need as much : evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed : leapard in your bed. [ and i don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ] if the issue is, "what is truth" then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent. if the issue is, "what are the consequences if such and such -is- true", then truth is irrelevent. which is it to 
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 : upon arriving at home, joseph probably took advantage of mary...had his way : with her so to speak. of course, word of this couldn't get around so mary, : being the highly-religious follower that she was decided "hey, i'll just say : that god impregnated me...no one will ever know!" : thus, seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul, she was believed... : and then came jesus, the child born from violence. can you explain the purpose of your post, i can't imagine what you must have thougt it meant. 
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 : and thank the lord that bill connor has returned to set : us straight! now i know i can die happy when my lexus : se400 wipes out on that rain-slick curve in 1997. the : rest of you had best straighten up, because your time : is even more limited. most of you are going in the flu : of 1994. you know you're glad to have me visit ... but i won't stay long this time, just shopping around. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism51316">
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 : }xenophobia, both *de facto* and *de jure* as implemented : }in legal systems, is widespread, while the bible, : }although not 100% egalitarian, specifically preaches : }kindness to the stranger, and emphasizes in the book : }of ruth, that a foreigner can join the nation and : }give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation. : clearly better than the alternative, but as an american what strikes : me as strange about this story is that it should have even been : considered an issue. there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing. an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything. there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all its products. there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident. for an atheist, no event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about- an event can have value. the products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment, from teaching, training, observation and experience and are only significant to the individual mind wherein they reside. these mental processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical activity and nothing more; content is of no consequence. the human mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a how then can an atheist judge value? what is the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god? on what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? it seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what in nature can serve that purpose? what law of nature can you invoke to establish your values. since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. the only way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it - that's it. any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries no weight in any "absolute" sense. that you don't like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. that your objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been conditioned; there is no "truth" content. the whole of your intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality. i didn't make these rules, it's inherent in naturalistic atheism and to be consistent, you have to accept the non-significance of any human thought, even your own. all of this being so, you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil, etc. and cannot participate. your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever. 
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 could you explain what any of this pertains to? is this a position statement on something or typing practice? and why are you using my name, do you think this relates to anything i've said and if so, what. 
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 you might not like what bernard lewis writes about, label him as a zionist or such to discredit him etc. you misrepresent me, selim. the hard evidence for my statements about his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book "orientalism" by edward said. edward said, by the way, is a christian, not a muslim. i think he is pretty much objective in his treatment in "race and slavery in the middle east", since he clearly distinguishes between slavery under islam, and the practice of slavery in other countries, like the us prior to the civil war. he also does not conceal that there are verses in the quran which promote the liberation of slaves. what he doesn't, and i don't think nobody can, deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be abolished in islamic countries. now you might, rather conveniently, blame the practice of slavery on muslims, but the facts are out there. i also fail to see the relevance of the claim of lewis being a "zionist" to what i wrote. regarding bernard lewis: him being a zionist gives him a political motive for his giving misrepresentations and half-truths about islam. read "orientalism" by edward said -- see the evidence for yourself. in fact, i may post some of it here (if it isn't too long). they were encyclopaedic information which anybody can access - that slavery was abolished at certain dates some 1200 years after muhammed, that this was the cause of tensions in the ottoman empire between the arab slave traders and the government etc.. we also have in the asu library volumes of british documents on slavery where reports and documents concerning slavery all around the world can be found, which i checked some of the incidents lewis mentions. so i don't think ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence. i haven't read lewis's article, so i can't comment directly upon it, and have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far, that his political motives make him a biased writer on islam. his anti-islamic polemics, as i understand it, are often quite subtle and are often based on telling half-truths. again, read "orientalism" by edward said. i am _not_ asking you to take what i say on trust, in fact i am urging you not to do so but to get this book (it is a well-known book) and check the evidence out for the issue i raised was that slaves were used for sexual purposes, when it was claimed that islam prohibits extra-marital sex. i wrote that the prophet himself had concubines, i wrote an incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not want his concubine to get pregnant etc., which is contrary to the notion that "sex is for procreation only". in other words, such claims are baseless in the quran and the hadith. if slavery is _in reality_ (as opposed to in the practice of some muslims) opposed by islam, then using slaves for sexual purposes is necessarily opposed too. i seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you. islam is not "advocating" slavery. slavery was an existing institution in the 7th century. it advised on slaves being freed for good deeds etc., which is nothing new. many cultures saw this as a good thing. what is the problem here? but i can argue rightfully that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses politically - the quran rewards the good slave, so obey your master and perhaps one day you'll be free. but, it is very understandable that i do not communicate with muslims, since they assume the quran is from a "god", and i think it is a rule-based system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo. slaves are a part of this system, the subordination of women so that their function in society boils down to child-making is a part of this system, etc. i understand your point of view, selim -- i think, rather, it is _us_ who are not getting through to _you_. some of the points you repeat above i have already answered before. regarding women, i have made posting after posting on this subject, showing that islam is not anti-woman, etc. however, have you been completely ignoring my postings or just missing them? i just reposted a very good one, under the title "islam and women", reposted from soc.religion.islam. if this has already disappeared from your site, then please email me telling me so and i will email you a copy of this excellent article. imho, your understanding of the issue of women in islam is sadly deficient. regarding slaves, _my_ posting on slavery -- the second one i made, which is a repost of an article i wrote early last year -- is based completely on the qur'an and contains numerous qur'anic verses and hadiths to support its point of view. our approaches are different -- you are arguing from a historical standpoint and i am arguing directly from the teachings of the qur'an and hadiths. now, just because people say they are muslims and perform a particular action, does that automatically mean that their action is part of islam, even if it is opposed by the qur'an and sunnah? no! of course not. let me give you a concrete example, which might help clarify this for you. the qur'an prohibits drinking. now, if a person says "i am a muslim" and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer, does this now mean that islam teaches that people should drink beer? of course not, and only an idiot would think so. do you see my point? it is very natural to think that the author/authors of the quran had no idea that the socio-economic structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm shifts in 1400 years in the western cultures - first with the end of the feudal era and the rise of commerce, second with the industrial revolution. well, rules have changed and the status quo has driven muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a "heathen" world. muslim countries have failed economically, they were unable to accumulate any wealth - directly due to the uncomprimising economic rules in the quran. in fact, the rise of islam can easily be modeled after the pyramid effect - you do not produce any wealth at home, but increase your wealth by conquering places. you are judging islam here on capitalist terms. capitalism is an ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise their wealth -- this assumption is in opposition to islamic teachings. to say islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking -- islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be capitalist. (this does not mean that islam does not support a free-market -- for it does in general -- but there are other parts of capitalism which are opposed to islam as i understand it.) when this stopped, you (and i) were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour. no capital, no industry, very poor social services - the education level in muslim countries are the lowest in the world, the health statistics are miserable etc.. one can postulate numerous reasons for this. your theory is that it is because islam is not secularist and capitalist, etc. etc. selim, i will give you a clear historical example to show you the fallacy of your views if you think (as you obviously do) that islam => lack of education and power. for a large part of history, the islamic world was very powerful. for a significant section of history, the islamic world was the foremost in the sciences. so to say that islam is, for example, anti-education is completely absurd. you try to blame this situation on islam -- history shows that your conclusion is false and that, instead, there must be other reasons for this situation. you blame muslims for not following the quran, but i blame muslims for following the quran. well, selim, your viewpoint on women in islam makes me question the extent of your knowledge of islam. i really think you are not knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the muslims are following the qur'an or not. your idea is baseless from historical facts, it is a poor utopia, the islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one stage -- yet somehow, in your theory, it is by "following the qur'an" that muslims are backwards in education. selim, it is _your_ thesis that is anti-historical, for you conveniently overlook this historical fact which contradicts your theory. while my ideas are derived from social and economic history. you have certainly not shown this; you have merely stated it. so far, it seems to me that your view on islam being anti-education is quite contrary to history. that you are so convinced of your views makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of my solution to all muslims is simple: cut the crap, i think, selim, you should consider taking your own advice. get the facts straight here too. and work hard to reverse the effects of 1300 years of ignorance. selim, you have such conviction of your viewpoint, yet you demonstrate ignorance, not only of islam but also of islamic history (particularly with respect to muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so i think). yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history! selim, if i remember right, you say in one of your earlier posts that you are an apostate from islam. i think you should slow down and start thinking clearly about the issues, and start _reading_ some of our postings about islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history, and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany. i think the problem here is that i pretty much ignored the part about the jews sightseeing for 2000 years, thinking instead that the important part of what the original poster said was the bit about killing palestinians. in retrospect, i can see how the sightseeing thing would be offensive to many. i originally saw it just as poetic license, but it's understandable that others might see it differently. i still think that ken came on a bit strong though. i also think that your advice to masud khan: #before you argue with someone like mr arromdee, it's a good idea to #do a little homework, or at least think. was unnecessary. that's right. there have been. there have also been people who were formally nazis. but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly now what exactly don't you understand about what i wrote, and why don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand? throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual anti-semitism. if i agreed with that, then maybe your speech on why this is bad might have been relevant. but i think you're reading a lot into one flip sentence. while probably not true in this case, too often the charge of anti-semitism gets thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the state of israel. anyway, i'd rather be somewhere else, so i'm outta this thread. doug graham dgraham@bnr.ca my opinions are my own. 
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 archive-name: atheism/overview alt-atheism-archive-name: overview last-modified: 5 april 1993 version: 1.2 welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated. this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post them to the net. in addition, people often request information which has been posted time and time again. in order to try and cut down on this, the alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles: 1. alt.atheism faq: overview for new readers 2. alt.atheism faq: introduction to atheism 3. alt.atheism faq: frequently asked questions (faq) 4. alt.atheism faq: constructing a logical argument 5. alt.atheism faq: atheist resources this is article number 1. please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting. the others are entirely optional. if you are new to usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup news.announce.newusers. the articles titled "a primer on how to work with the usenet community", "answers to frequently asked questions about usenet" and "hints on writing style for usenet" are particularly relevant. questions concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions. if you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "finding stuff" section below. these files could not have been written without the assistance of the many readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated. in particular, i'd like to thank the following people: kck+@cs.cmu.edu (karl kluge) perry@dsinc.com (jim perry) netoprwa@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (wayne aiken) chpetk@gdr.bath.ac.uk (toby kelsey) jkp@cs.hut.fi (jyrki kuoppala) geoff.arnold@east.sun.com (geoff arnold) torkel@sics.se (torkel franzen) kmldorf@utdallas.edu (george kimeldorf) roe2@quads.uchicago.edu (greg roelofs) arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (ken arromdee) madhaus@netcom.com (maddi hausmann) j5j@psuvm.psu.edu (john a. johnson) dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (douglas graham) mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (william mayne) ajr@bigbird.hri.com (andy rosen) stoesser@ira.uka.de (achim stoesser) bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (bryan o'sullivan) lippard@ccit.arizona.edu (james j. lippard) s1b3832@rigel.tamu.edu (s. baum) ydobyns@phoenix.princeton.edu (york h. dobyns) schroede@sdsc.edu (wayne schroeder) baldwin@csservera.usna.navy.mil (j.d. baldwin) d_nibby@unhh.unh.edu (dana nibby) dempsey@kodak.com (richard c. dempsey) jmunch@hertz,elee.calpoly.edu (john david munch) pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (paul crowley) rz@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (richard zach) tycchow@math.mit.edu (tim chow) simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (simon clippingdale) ...and countless others i've forgotten. these articles are free. truly free. you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish. however, please send any changes or corrections to the author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network. finding stuff all of the faq files *should* be somewhere on your news system. here are some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them: 1. check the newsgroup alt.atheism. look for subject lines starting with "alt.atheism faq:". 2. check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines. if you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the 3. if you have anonymous ftp access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]. go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest versions of the faq files there. ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers. if you need help in using or getting started with ftp, send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq in the body. 4. there are other sites which also carry news.answers postings. the article "introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers. 5. if you don't have ftp, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu consisting of the following lines: send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources send usenet/alt.atheism/faq send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction send usenet/alt.atheism/logic send usenet/alt.atheism/resources 5. (penultimate resort) send mail to mail-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of the following lines: send atheism/faq/faq.txt send atheism/faq/logic.txt send atheism/faq/intro.txt send atheism/faq/resource.txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files. there's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and "send atheism/index". 6. (last resort) mail mathew@mantis.co.uk, or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files. you should only do this if you've tried the above methods and they've failed; it's not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people's mailboxes with requests for files. it's better than posting without reading the faq, though! for instance, people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don't have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files. ÿ 
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 date: 18 apr 93 23:17:25 gmt from: bake timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu> these bible-lovers have got to chill out. if we all could just relax and see atheism for what it is, the funny pages could have more material. atheism denies the existence of god. this is logically bankrupt -- where is the proof of this nonexistence? it's a joke. so nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously. perhaps perhaps because you just made it up? now put your skateboard away and read the faq. learn something about atheism before you get off on these tangents. 
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 i don't think there is really any question about which god the courts mean. the request for solemnly swearing, so help you god, is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand and hold up your right hand. in the courts of nc, at least, it is always an old and new testament. though it is hard to imagine, picking up the bible and swearing to (whatever) god is sometimes the least of the religious influence. there is a court in greensboro, nc, where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session. i've thought about sitting through it, but i'm not terribly anxious to spend 30 days in jail... 
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 mathew "faq" can't remember his last name keith "lie tally .sig" ryan kent "finn-tastic" sandvick cindy "popsicle toes" kandolf jim "face .sig" tims simon "clip-that-theist" clippendale umar "reasonable" khan rob "argue with g-d" strom dave "buckminster" fuller maddi "never a useful post" hausmann hey, what about an affectionate nickname for me? you could take my wrongly spelled surname :-). kent sandvik sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 in <11825@vice.ico.tek.com> bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com (robert beauchaine) actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. ignorance of the existence of any god. don't fall into the "atheists don't believe because of their pride" mistake. how do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned? if i'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake. that he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes. what are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your choices up to you? as for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that i don't believe in god because i do not wish to. unless you can know my motivations better than i do myself, you should believe me when i say that i earnestly searched for god for years and never found i definitely agree that it's rather presumptuous for either "side" to give some psychological reasoning for another's belief. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits. 
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 from: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he's finished writing a sequel to the bible. writing the seven seals or something along those lines. he's already written the first of the seven which was around 30 pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading!. i would expect any decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker. maybe koresh 2.0 will come with one. i heard he had asked the fbi to provide him with a word processor. does anyone know if koresh has requested that it be wordperfect5.0? wp5.0 was written (and is owned) by mormons, so the theological implications of requesting (or refusing) wp5.0 are profound! wilkins@scubed.scubed.com | i will be president for food | |______________________________| 
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 [pitt vs. penn state controversy deleted] bringing this back to alt.atheism relevance: so the guy says we're going to hell. that isn't sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator. at worst, it's bad etiquette. (unless you really believe that someone is using his account without his knowledge/permission, which is actually against the law.) patrick saxton "pitt is a second-rate school in a second-rate city." pts102@psuvm.psu.edu - anon pts@ecl.psu.edu ob.atheism: "in batman we trust" no. it wouldn't be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell. the point was that recently many messages were posted from that address. each of these messages was posted to a different newsgroup, with the apparent intent of provoking the readers of that particular group. this, along with the fact that these posts were written in all-caps, makes these posts suspect. whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly. if it is the intended user, they should consider appropriate action. if it is someone else-- which seems a possibility, then this is also reason to report it. we get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread. it is only because i have seen posts on other groups by this user that i am considering action. 
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 thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without reading the faq! i was laughing for a good 5 minutes. were there any parts of the faq that weren't mentioned? i think there might have been one or two... please don't tell me this wasn't a joke. i'm not ready to hear that yet... 
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 : there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread : that are a little confusing. an atheist is one for whom all things can : be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. this definition does not include all atheists (see the faq). however, i (for one) do think there is no need to invoke any divine or spiritual explanations. it makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood as natural processes, and to claim that our observations do not require us to postulate any divine intervention, or anything spiritual, for that matter. humans are not omnipotent, and neither is science. however, science has one advantage theology doesn't: it is self- correcting, with nature as its judge. it is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self- consistent, simple picture of our universe. science is no longer a bunch of separate branches, it is one. from particle physics to psychology. and no aspect of our life, or our universe, is safe from its stern and stony eye. not even our consciousness. there is no need : for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything. there is : no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by : physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is : determnined. actually, determinism vs. indeterminism is a philosophical question, and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow superdeterministic or not. i think the question does not have any meaning, as far as individual human beings go. if their apparent free will is an illusion, it does not appear to be so from their perspective. bill, can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free will or not? : this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all : its products. there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it : acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident. maybe. who are we to tell? it seems intelligence is useful - when during the history of earth has _one species_ been able to control one third of the whole biosphere? this can still be a result of numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates and preserves. even that machinery can be result of the same principle - only the systems that can start replicating will survive, those which don't don't make it. (recommended reading: t.o) : for an atheist, no : event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less : value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about- : an event can have value. from whose perspective? i value events and things subjectively, from my perspective. nature does not have values, because it does not have a perspective - values arise from awareness. if i have a subjective perspective, it is easy to assume that other people also do, and if i think about what it would it be like in their position, i will eventually discover the golden rule. morality is not necessarily a gift from heavens, in fact, it may be a product of evolution. perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity is helpful, allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect others who seem to have identity, too. bill, have you ever read aristotle? try his ethica nikomakhea (sp.) for starters. : how then can an atheist judge value? what is the basis for criticizing : the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god? on : what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? it : seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you : have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what : in nature can serve that purpose? what law of nature can you invoke to : establish your values. c.s. lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why he abandoned his atheism and became christian. the argument is severely flawed. some values, such as the golden rule, can have a rational basis. some others, like the basic idea of wanting to live, has probably its roots in the way our brains are wired. lewis ignored the very real possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic behaviour, and morality as well. indeed, as humans evolved better and better in building and using tools, they also became better at killing each other. it is a logical necessity that evolution could only favour those who knew how to use tools, but not against one's own people. the bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early jews was not beyond this. a simple set of rules to hold the people together, under one god. their god did not care much about people of other nations. at the time of the nt, things were quite different - the jews were under rule of an _empire_, and could no longer simply ignore the gentiles. a new situation required a new morality, and along with it a new religion was born. (a mutation in a meme pool.) : since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what : difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or : otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. the only : way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the : objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it : - that's it. any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer : that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries : no weight in any "absolute" sense. it looks like you haven't bothered to read philosophy. whenever there is an observer, there is a subjective point of view, which may value its existence and happiness (even if that were just a result of some physical event), and other's happiness, too, if the observer comes to think about it. in an absolutely objective sense, that is, without any observers or subjects, moral judgments lose their it is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of view. this includes gods, too, their values are only _their_ personal judgments, not absolute truths, since such truths do not exist. the fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence by becoming social beings who can think and value others' morality is not property of humans alone - chimps, dolphins and many other species show great care for each other. dolphins have sometimes saved humans from drowning, a good deed indeed. : that you don't like what god told people to do says nothing about god : or god's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your : nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled : with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. that your : objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been : conditioned; there is no "truth" content. the whole of your : intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality. the last statement does not logically follow. in fact, there is every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very well, and our senses can convey reliable information. solipsism is still a logical possibility, but not a very likely one. you are continuously mixing two different views: the subjective point of view (which we all share) and an objective point of view, _which does not exist_. any observer or thinker, any personal being, has its own point of view. it does not matter whether this point of view is a result of some physical events or not, it does not cease to be subjective. from a non-observers non-point of view, values do not exist. neither does pain, or pleasure, or beauty, or love. such things are inherently subjective. once again, if god wants wives to submit to their husbands, or even to make a leap of faith into the unknown, or wants to punish us if we don't, i disagree with his morals. i do not think my morals come from any supreme being - to remove my morals means the same than to make me a zombie, a machine without a single thought. if god gave us morality to judge, but i disagree with him, it is not my fault. he is free to replace my morals. i cannot see what is the point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one's own and then to get mad at this. god must be schizophrenic. : all of this being so, you have excluded : yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil, : etc. and cannot participate. your opinion about the bible can have no : weight whatsoever. neither can the opinion of any god, for that matter. i cannot understand why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else. bill, take note: absolute values must be independent of _any_ being, _including_ gods. if god has a subjective viewpoint, it is his own point of view, and his morals are his own. ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 i am refuting nothing but simply telling you what i see, which is childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted. bcci was not an islamic bank, so this post has nothing to do with islamic banks. i am tiring of this infantile garbage, so i simply evaluated it as such. could you maybe flesh it out just a bit? or did i miss the full grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism? you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass. i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again. it's time for your lesson in debate, gregg. yeah, right. begin included text: from vice!news.tek.com!uunet!psinntp!wrldlnk!usenet sun apr 18 10:01:11 pdt 1993 i noticed a post on this topic in soc.religion.islam. and since the topic of the bcci being/not being an islamic bank has come up, i have left in the one mention of the bcci bank called "how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking" from this bibliography. bennett, neil. "how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking". the times. august 13, 1991. so, let's see. if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so, is that it? this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it, gregg. any questions? and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass. what's your excuse? this supports nothing. i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti-islamic slander job. i have no respect for titles, only for real content. i can look up this article if i want, true. but i can tell you bcci was _not_ an islamic bank. seeing as i'm spending my time responding to propaganda (in responding to this little sub-thread) i really don't feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false. if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i'd be glad to have a real discussion, providing references, etc. 
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 #12) the 2 cheribums are on the ark of the covenant. when god said make no graven image, he was refering to idols, which were created to be worshipped. the ark of the covenant wasn't wrodhipped and only the high priest could enter the holy of holies where it was kept once a year, on the day of i am not familiar with, or knowledgeable about the original language, but i believe there is a word for "idol" and that the translator would have used the word "idol" instead of "graven image" had the original said "idol." so i think you're wrong here, but then again i could be too. i just suggesting a way to determine whether the interpretation you offer is correct. dean kaflowitz 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53069">
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 rule #4: don't mix apples with oranges. how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin? khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause. that was atrocious. but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! how can anyone be worse than that? you're right. and david koresh claimed to be a christian. 
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 niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. find an encyclopedia. volume h. now look up hitler, adolf. he had many more people than just germans enamoured with him. clive p a u l m o l o n e y come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - geoffm 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53071">
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 the pope is jewish.... i guess they're right, and i always thought that the thing on his head was just a fancy hat, not a jewish headpiece (i don't remember the name). it's all so clear now (clear as mud.) as to what that headpiece is.... (by chort@crl.nmsu.edu) source: ap newswire the vatican, home of genetic misfits? michael a. gillow, noted geneticist, has revealed some unusual data after working undercover in the vatican for the past 18 years. "the popehat(tm) is actually an advanced bone spur.", reveals gillow in his groundshaking report. gillow, who had secretly studied the innermost workings of the vatican since returning from vietnam in a wheel chair, first approached the scientific community with his theory in the late 1950's. "the whole hat thing, that was just a cover up. the vatican didn't want the catholic community(tm) to realize their leader was hefting nearly 8 kilograms of extraneous bone tissue on the top of his skull.", notes gillow in his report. "there are whole laboratories in the vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow experiments. what started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400's is now scientifically engineered and bred for. the whole bone transplant idea started in the mid sixties inspired by doctor timothy leary transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats." gillow is quick to point out the assassination attempt on pope john paul ii and the disappearance of dr. leary from the public eye. "when it becomes time to replace the pope", says gillow, "the old pope and the replacement pope are locked in a padded chamber. they butt heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance of the herd. the victor emerges and has earned the privilege of inseminating the choir boys." clive p a u l m o l o n e y come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - geoffm 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53073">
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 +last night, while watching the 2a.m. rebroadcast of jerry springer (a +talk show) i heard this jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist. +the focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the jewish +religion, and why. [some stuff deleted] +interesting (and scary) no? they went on to say how the jews had +killed their god, and how in the end of time that all the races would +go to their homelands (of course, they would remain in america, which +is new jeruselem, as it says in gen 2??? (what another kid said) but +the rest of the races would go home) and then the great battle or plague +or whatever revel. says would happen, and the jews would be killed. +the most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is catholic, +and had the kjv of the bible on his desk. he immediatly opened it up +and began to search for the quoted passages (gen, rev, and john) to +look for himself, and couldn't find what they said they saw. i don't +know i saw this show a while back, and when i heard these kids quote the bible to justify their racist claims, i looked up that quote about jesus hating jews (since jesus himself was a jew, my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim). the jist of the passage (and i am sorry but i can't recall which passage it was exactly) was that jesus was condemning the pharisees for being corrupt. of course, the pharisees were jewish too, but it wasn't jews as a whole that jesus was condemning, just the powers that be. nancy o'connor + psychology undergrad + the opinions i express simon fraser university, + are my own. burnaby, b.c. + canada + 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53081">
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 i don't see anything special about theism in general that makes it a particular hazard (more so than say, stupidity, anarchy, or patriotism). of course, it depends on the religion, but i see nothing about believing in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia, genocide, if the emphasis is on the "in general", then of course you're correct, since you haven't really said anything. if we restrict our observations to practiced religions, there are lots of examples of god mandated genocide. just ask the canaanites. the point is that if you believe in a god, and if you believe he has ordered you to eliminate an entire race, you will likely make the attempt. after all, if it was ok in the past, it could surely be ok in the present. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53082">
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 this is the reason i like the controversy of post-modernism, the issues of polarities -- evil and good -- are just artificial constructs, and they fall apart during a closer inspection. the more i look into the notion of a constant struggle between the evil and good forces, the more it sounds like a metaphor that people just assume without closer inspection. more info please. i'm not well exposed to these ideas. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53083">
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 chimpanzees fight wars over land. but chimps are almost human... could it be? this is the last message from mr. schneider, and it's more than three days old! are these his final words? (and how many here would find that appropriate?) or is it just that finals got in the way? no. the christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman (seems so clandestine, and all that), so they had him removed. of course, keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he isn't really being persecuted, since (after all) they *are* feeding him, and any resistance on his part would only be viewed as trouble making. i understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed "in god we trust" on his forehead, though. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53086">
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 |> >> you might think "oh yeah. then why didn't god destroy it in the bud |> >>before it got to the point it is now--with millions through the |> >>ages suffering along in life?" |> >> the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was |> >>better than god's. god is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way |> >>is better than god's. we all know what that has brought. |> >come on! god is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the |> >well-being of billions? i seriously doubt it. having read the bible |> >twice, i never got the impression that god and satan were working in some |> >sort of cooperative arrangement. |> read the book of job. oh, that was just a bet. brian /-|-\ 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53087">
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 i'm sold! where do i sign up? brian /-|-\ the next book: "charles manson: lord, lunatic, or liar" 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53093">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53093" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 "wait. you just said that humans are rarely reasonable. doesn't that contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and reason? this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false." --- bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah, #2 does anybody have bobby's post in which he said something like "i don't know why there are more men than women in islamic countries. maybe it's atheists killing the female children"? it's my personal favorite! sami aario | "can you see or measure an atom? yet you can explode a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. sunlight is comprised of many atoms." -------------------' "your stupid minds! stupid, stupid!" eros in "plan 9 from outer space" disclaimer: i don't agree with eros. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53094">
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 1. did you read the faqs? 2. if no, read the faqs. 3. if yes, you wouldn't have posted such drivel. the "lord, liar or lunatic" argument is a false trilemma. even if you disprove liar and lunatic (which you haven't), you have not eliminated the other possibilities, such as mistaken, misdirected, or misunderstood. you have arbitrarily set up three and only three possibilities without considering others. 4. read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking. if you think the "lord, liar, or lunatic" discussion is an example of a good argument, you are in need of learning. 5. read the faqs again, especially "constructing a logical argument." ignore these instructions at your peril. disobeying them leaves you open for righteous flaming. maddi hausmann madhaus@netcom.com centigram communications corp san jose california 408/428-3553 kids, please don't try this at home. remember, i post professionally. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53096">
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 anyhow, on the basis of the apparent success of islamic banks, it seems to me that the statement that a zero-interest economy cannot survive in today's world may be a bit premature. i'm sure zero-intested economical systems survive on a small-scale, co-ops is not an islamic invention, and we have co-operatives working all around the world. however such systems don't stand the corruption of a large scale operation. actually, nothing could handle human greed, imho. not even allah :-). sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53097">
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 he is right. just because an event was explained by a human to have been done "in the name of religion", does not mean that it actually followed the religion. he will always point to the "ideal" and say that it wasn't followed so it can't be the reason for the event. there really is no way to argue with him, so why bother. sure, you may get upset because his answer is blind and not supported factually - but he will win every time with his little argument. i don't think there will be any postings from me in direct response to one of his. hey! glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this newsgroup. i agree 100% on the statement above, you might argue with bobby for eons, and he still does not get it, so the best thing is to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53099">
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 first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it makes sense to be one. have any of you read tony campollo's book- liar, lunatic, or the real thing? (i might be a little off on the title, but he writes the book. anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity, in the process he became a christian himself. seems he didn't understand anything about realities, liar, lunatic or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of jesus sigh, it seems religion makes your mind/brain filter out anything that does not fit into your personal scheme. so anyone that thinks the possibilities with jesus is bound to the classical lewis notion of 'liar, lunatic or saint' is indeed bound to become a christian. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 |> #|> at any rate, even if your interpretation is correct this does |> #|> not imply that the killings are religously motivated, which was |> #|> the original poster's seeming claim. |> #tricky, tricky. i'm replying to your blanket claim that they |> #are *not* religiously motivated. |> they aren't. irish catholics in the south do not kill irish protestants |> in the south, yet have precisely the same history behind them. those |> who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather |> obvious matter of british occupation, partition and misguided patriotism |> on both sides. false dichotomy. you claimed the killing were *not* religiously motivated, and i'm saying that's wrong. i'm not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate, as i spelled out in detail. |> the problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical |> roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated |> by a protestant one. the grotesque killing of soldiers and |> civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism, civil rights issues, and |> revenge. it's only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard |> to understand - religion need not be invoked to explain it. does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph? |> #but to claim that "the killings in n.i are not religously |> #motivated." is grotesque. all that means is that the church |> #and believers are doing what they always do with history |> #they can't face: they rewrite it. |> you're attacking a different claim. my claim is that when an ira |> terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s/he does not have as a motive |> the greater glory of god. sorry, frank, but what i put in quotes is your own words from your posting <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>. don't tell us now that it's a different claim. if you can no longer stand behind your original claim, just say so. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53111">
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 i stopped believing in you as well, long before the invention of technology. --god don't listen to this guy, he's just a crank. at first, this business about being the "one true god" was tolerated by the rest of us, but now it has gotten completely out of hand. besides, it really isn't so bad when people stop believing in you. it's much more relaxing when mortals aren't always begging you for favors. -- zeus 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53112">
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 if i state that i know that there is a green marble in a closed box, which i have _never_ seen, nor have any evidence for its existance; i would be guilty of deceit, even if there is, in fact, a green marble inside. the question of whether or not there is a green marble inside, is you go ahead and play with your marbles. i love it, i love it, i love it!! wish i could fit all that into a .sig file! (if someone is keeping a list of bobby quotes, be sure to include this one!) stating an unproven opinion as a fact, is deceit. and, knowingly being decietful is a falsehood and a lie. so why do you think its an unproven opinion? if i said something as fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it, then who's the flat-earthers state that "the earth is flat" is a fact. i don't accept this, i think it's an unproven opinion, and i think the round-earthers are right because they have better evidence than the flat-earthers do. although i can't prove that a god doesn't exist, the arguments used to support a god's existence are weak and often self-contradictory, and i'm not going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a reason to believe in a god that i absolutely can't ignore. a while ago, i read an interesting book by a fellow called von daenicken, in which he proved some of the wildest things, and on the last page, he wrote something like "can you prove it isn't so?" i certainly can't, but i'm not going to believe him, because he based his "proof" on some really questionable stuff, such as old myths (he called it "circumstancial evidence" :] ). so far, atheism hasn't made me kill anyone, and i'm regarded as quite an agreeable fellow, really. :) sami aario | "can you see or measure an atom? yet you can explode a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. sunlight is comprised of many atoms." -------------------' "your stupid minds! stupid, stupid!" eros in "plan 9 from outer space" disclaimer: i don't agree with eros. 
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 there's a way around that via the hadith, which state that silence is taken to mean "yes" and that women may not speak before a judge, who must conduct the marriage. actaully, that's a false hadith, because it contradicts verses in the quran, that says women may testify- speak before a judge. hadiths are declared false when they contradict the quran. hadiths weren't written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet, and so may contain errors. so the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is if it contradicts the quran? what if it relates to something that isn't explicitly spelled out in the quran? also, the quran wasn't written down during the life of muhammed either. it wasn't long after, but 20 years or so is still long enough to shift a few verses around. | "lastly, i come to china in the hope | "all you touch and all you see | | of fulfilling a lifelong ambition - | is all your life will ever be." | | dropping acid on the great wall." --duke | --pink floyd | | a lie is still a lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it. | 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53117">
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 |> #i'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means |> #when put next to the word morality. i assume its an idiom and cannot |> #be defined by its separate terms. |> #give it a try. |> objective morality is morality built from objective values. | "and these objective values are ... ?" |please be specific, and more importantly, motivate. i'll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable. i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition), almost all would want to complain. therefore i take it that to assert or believe that "freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on a rainy day. i take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53120">
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 it is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema [islamic scholars] that islamic law applies only in an islamic country, of which the uk is not. furthermore, to take the law into one's own hands is a criminal act, as these are matters for the state, not for individuals. nevertheless, khomeini offered a cash prize for people to take the law into their own hands -- something which, to my understanding, is against islamic law. yes, this is also my understanding of the majority of islamic laws. however, i believe there are also certain legal rulings which, in all five schools of law (4 sunni and 1 jaffari), can be levelled against muslim or non-muslims, both within and outside dar-al-islam. i do not know if apostasy (when accompanied by active, persistent, and open hostility to islam) falls into this category of the law. i do know historically, apostasy has very rarely been punished at all, let alone by the death penalty. my understanding is that khomeini's ruling was not based on the law of apostasy (alone). it was well known that rushdie was an apostate long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no precedent in the qur'an, hadith, or in islamic history for indiscriminantly levelling death penalties for apostasy. i believe the charge levelled against rushdie was that of "fasad". this ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals. the reward was not offered by khomeini but by individuals within iran. stuff deleted also, i think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that khomeini's fatwa was issued due to the _distribution_ of the book. my understanding is that khomeini's fatwa was issued in response to the _writing_ and _publishing_ of the book. if my view is correct, then your viewpoint that rushdie was sentenced for a "crime in progress" is i would concur that the thrust of the fatwa (from what i remember) was levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication of the book. however, the charge of "fasad" can encompass a number of lesser charges. i remember that when diplomatic relations broke off between britain and iran over the fatwa - iran stressed that the condemnation of the author, and the removal of the book from circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the "crisis". but you are correct to point out that banning the book was not the main thrust behind the fatwa. islamic charges such as fasad are levelled at people, not books. the rushdie situation was followed in iran for several months before the issuance of the fatwa. rushdie went on a media blitz, presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred. fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost his image and push the book, he was everywhere in the media. then muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while protesting against the book. rushdie appeared momentarily concerned, then climbed back on his media horse to once again attack the muslims and defend his sacred rights. it was at this point that the fatwa on "fasad" was issued. the fatwa was levelled at the person of rushdie - any actions of rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of the ruling. the book remains in circulation not by some independant will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. the fatwa against the person of rushdie encompasses his actions as well. the crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media. p.s. i'm not sure about this but i think the charge of "shatim" also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the "fasad" ruling. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53121">
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 what about the twelve imams, who he considered incapable of error or sin? khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans. this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above. i would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 imams with you, although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup. i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more appropriate. the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet (s.a.). heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical substance of man's being and nature. a good introductory book (in fact one of the best introductory books to islam in general) is murtaza mutahhari's "fundamental's of islamic thought - god, man, and the universe" - mizan press, translated by r. campbell. truly a beautiful book. a follow-up book (if you can find a decent translation) is "wilaya - the station of the master" by the same author. i think it also goes under the title of "master and mastership" - it's a very small book - really just a transcription of a lecture by the author. the introduction to the beautiful "psalms of islam" - translated by william c. chittick (available through muhammadi trust of great britain) is also an excellent introduction to the subject. we have these books in our university library - i imagine any well stocked university library will have them. from your posts, you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought. you should seek to know shi'ite thought through knowledgeable shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled. as salaam a-laikum 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53122">
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 [stuff deleted...] ||> to the newsgroup at large, how about this for a deal: recognise that what ||> happened in former communist russia has as much bearing on the validity ||> of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their ||> theism. that's zip, nada, none. the fallacy is known as ad hominem, and ||> it's an old one. it should be in the holy faq, in the book of constructing ||> a logical argument :-) |apart from not making a lot of sense, this is wrong. there |is no "atheist creed" that taught any communist what to do "in |the name of atheism". there clearly are theistic creeds and |instructions on how to act for theists. they all madly |conflict with one another, but that's another issue. lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil. that's like saying that, since mathematics includes no instructions on how to act, it is evil. atheism is not a moral system, so why should it speak of instructions on how to act? *atheism is simply lack of belief in god*. plenty of theists think so. so one could argue the case for "atheism causes whatever i didn't like about the former ussr" with as much validity as "theism causes genocide" - that is to say, no validity at all. i think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide. this is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act, and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide. however, since the atheist set of instructions is the null set, how can you show that atheism causes genocide? david choweller (davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu) there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment's notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject. --george bernard shaw. there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment's notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject. --george bernard shaw. 
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 [s.c.a quotes deleted] it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist. there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought... well, that explains some things; i posted on soc.religion.islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea among muslims. i got no response. asking about the unknown, i guess... | "lastly, i come to china in the hope | "all you touch and all you see | | of fulfilling a lifelong ambition - | is all your life will ever be." | | dropping acid on the great wall." --duke | --pink floyd | | a lie is still a lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it. | 
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 it appears that walla walla college will fill the same role in alt.atheist that allegheny college fills in alt.fan.dan-quayle. first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it makes sense to be one. have any of you read tony campollo's book- liar, lunatic, or the real thing? (i might be a little off on the title, but he writes the book. anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity, in the process he became a christian himself. converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their pre-xtian past, frequently falsely. anyone who embarks on an effort to "destroy" xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania, a defect which is not cured by religious conversion. the arguements he uses i am summing up. the book is about whether jesus was god or not. i know many of you don't believe, but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say. different perspective? different perspective?? bwahahahahahahahah!!! the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. (sigh!) perhaps big j was just mistaken about some of his claims. perhaps he was normally insightful, but had a few off days. perhaps many (most?) of the statements attributed to jesus were not made by him, but were put into his mouth by later authors. other possibilities abound. surely, someone seriously examining this question could come up with a decent list of possible alternatives, unless the task is not serious examination of the question (much less "destroying" xtianity) but rather religious salesmanship. some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would die for a lie? how many germans died for nazism? how many russians died in the name of the proletarian dictatorship? how many americans died to make the world safe for "democracy". what a silly question! wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed. call me a fool, but i believe he did heal people. is everyone who performs a healing = god? niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. it's probably hard to "draw" an entire nation to you unless you are crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see this right away. therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the real thing. anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves to be a xtian. some other things to note. he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms, isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. this in his betrayal and crucifixion. i don't have my bible with me at this moment, next time i write i will use it. don't bother. many of the "prophecies" were "fulfilled" only in the eyes of xtian apologists, who distort the meaning of isaiah and other ot books. 
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 [deletions...] i really don't think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite. first of all, infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans to explain certain things in a certain way. we don't know if it actually applies to reality, we don't know if anything in the world is infinite. it wouldn't be able to comprehend what reality is like for the programmer, because that would require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and based on infinietely small units- no units. you don't know if the universe is actually continuous. continuum is another mathematical concept (based on infinity) used to explain things in a certain because humans do not know what infinite is. we call it something beyond numbers. we call it endless, but we do not know what it is. i have a pretty good idea of what infinity is. it's a man-made concept, and like many man-made concepts, it has evolved through time. ancient greeks had a different understanding of it. so, we can call allah infinitely powerful, knowledgeable, etc.., yet we cannot imagine what allah actually is, because we just cannot imagine what it is like to be infinite. precicely. we don't even know if infinity applies to reality. sami aario | "can you see or measure an atom? yet you can explode a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. sunlight is comprised of many atoms." -------------------' "your stupid minds! stupid, stupid!" eros in "plan 9 from outer space" disclaimer: i don't agree with eros. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53127">
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 |> >you claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would |> >also take the time to get it right. but here in less than a couple |> >generations you've been given ample proof (agreed to by yourself above) |> >that the "new" versions "tends to be out of step with other modern |> >translations." |> what i said was that people took time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly. |> translations present completely different issues. so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had "different versions" of some ot texts. did i misunderstand? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53133">
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 (scott d. sauyet) says: are these his final words? (and how many here would find that appropriate?) or is it just that finals got in the way? keep your fingers crossed! why should i keep my fingers crossed? i doubt it would do anything. :) martin schulte 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53135">
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 wow. leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes away-- how depressing. actually, there are a few familiar faces out there, counting bob and kent, but i don't seem to recognize anyone else. has anyone heard from graham matthews recently, or has he gotten his degree and sailed for greener pastures (tm)? which brings me to the point of my posting. how many people out there have been around alt.atheism since 1990? i've done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup, but when you fall behind, you really fall behind (it's still not as bad as rec.arts.startrek used to be, but i digress). has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge? inquiring minds want to know! also-- does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt.atheism end up, once they leave the newsgroup? just curious, i guess. tom bruno i am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded respect for people who have been on newsgroups/mailing lists longer than i have, so you certainly have my sympathy tom. i have only been semi-regularly posting (it is toughto keep up) since this february, but i have been reading and following the threads since last august: my school's newsreader was down for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new feed site, so it wasn't accepting outgoing postings. i don't think anyone keeps track of where other posters go: it's that old love 'em and leave 'em internet for you again... best regards, * adam john cooper "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings * * who thought themselves good simply because * * acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." * 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53139">
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 your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts. the first i captured was by ken arromdee on 19 feb 1990, on the subject "re: atheist too?". that was article #473 here; your question was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for the last three years. as others have noted, the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large...... among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables: an interesting bunch.... i wonder where #2 is? geoff arnold, pc-nfs architect, sun select. (geoff.arnold@east.sun.com) "what if they made the whole thing up? | "the great lie" by four guys, two thousand years ago, over wine..." | the tear garden 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53141">
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 natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive. wait. are we talking about ethics or morals here? is the distinction important? we see this countless times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for our own system as well. well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways. in order for humans to thrive, we seem to need to live in groups, here's your problem. "we *seem* to need". what's wrong with the highlighted i don't know. what is wrong? is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild? yes, it's possible, but it is difficult. humans are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success. and in order for a group to function effectively, it needs some sort of ethical code. this statement is not correct. isn't it? why don't you think so? and, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself, i am not trying to give you your tautology, but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal. propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality. so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral? after all, in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate as many women as possible. no. as noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality) isn't really destructive to the system. it is a worst neutral. for that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates. when he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates. these seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot. again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined... 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53142">
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 but chimps are almost human... does this mean that chimps have a moral will? well, chimps must have some system. they live in social groups as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53143">
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 so how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings? your theory would state that the more the human is detached from primitive behavior, the more violent and non-moralistic the human becomes (please correct me if my understanding was wrong). so you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people from the roof of a campus. could you explain how your 'theory' explains such a situation? madmen are mad. do we try to explain the output from a broken computer? i think not. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53150">
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 in <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) #in article <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@d012s658.uucp (frank #> objective morality is morality built from objective values. #but where do those objective values come from? how can we measure them? #what mediated thair interaction with the real world, a moralon? or a scalar #valuino field? science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, as you would wish it. if there is no such thing as objective value, then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head. simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards. you like those conclusions? i don't. #and how do we know they exist in the first place? one assumes objective reality, one doesn't know it. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon how do we measure truth, beauty, goodness, love, friendship, trust, honesty, etc.? if things have no basis in objective fact then aren't we limited in what we know to be true? can't we say that we can examples or instances of reason, but cannot measure reason, or is that semantics? michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53154">
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 o.k., so pick former yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused by communism, it doesn't really matter. but i guess religious leaders are calling for an end to that, too, so it can't be religiously motivated. this despite the fact that the christians carve crosses in dead muslims chests. maybe they just want land. maybe its something else they want. maybe the cross carvings are just accidental. i don't know. just looks suspicious. most likely the tragic situation in bosnia is a combination of ethnical and religious motives, where religion is just one attribute that separates the groups from each other. but i must agree that the sad saga in bosnia is a terrible example of a case where religion is not helping, instead it is used as a weapon against other humans. and my sympathies are mostly on the bosnian side, it looks like the serbs are the oppressors, willing to use even christianity as a weapon against their former friends. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53157">
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 : >> the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime, but the legal : >> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court : >> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what : >> it should be. hence the question is, do we instate the death penalty as : >> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of : >> it entirely? i doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a "deterrent" to crime. if so, why doesn't every crime carry a death penalty ? that would be effictive wouldn't it ??? the death penalty is a punishment, much like a $50 fine for speeding is a punishment. anyway, somebody with murder on the mind doesn't much care about the consequences. i think another problem is that people dont think they will get caught. if i wanted to kill another person, i wouldn't care what the penalty was if i didn't think i would get caught. if it was to be strictly a deterrent, it should have been more along the lines of torture. dave fuller dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53158">
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 : personally, i feel that since religion have such a poweful : psychological effect, we should let theists be. but the problem is that : religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole : (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science : & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc. need i say more?). : i really don't know what we can do about them. any comments? i have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax anybody else. this seems to be ok for atheists. you don't get an atheist knocking on your door, stopping you in the airport, or handing out literature at a social event. theists seem to think that thier form of happy should work for others and try to make it so. my sister is a born again, and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family for several years. she finally got the clue that she couldn't help. during that period she bought me "i was atheist, now i'm xtian" books for my birthday and xmas several times. our birthday cards would contain verses. it was a problem. i told my mom that i was going to send my sister an atheist piece of reading material. i got a "don't you dare". my mom wasn't religious. why did she insist that i not send it ?? because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to preach, non-religion should be self contained. what a crock of shit. i finally told my sister that i didn't find her way of life attractive. i have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then. i'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and worst of all . . . . respected more than atheists. there must be an end in sight. dave fuller dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53162">
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 hello. i just started reading this group today, and i think i am going to be a large participant in its daily postings. i liked the section of the faq about constructing logical arguments - well done. i am an atheist, but i do not try to turn other people into atheists. i only try to figure why people believe the way they do - i don't much care if they have a different view than i do. when it comes down to it . . . i could be wrong. i am willing to admit the possibility - something religious followers dont seem to have the capability to do. happy to be aboard ! dave fuller dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com welcome. i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you). your have been awarded the nickname of "buckminster." so the next time you post an article, sign with your nickname like so: dave "buckminster" fuller. thanks again. jim "humor means never having to say you're sorry" copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part | -- sting, his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse | nothing 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53163">
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 judaism, for one. maddi has confirmed this for one. and again i reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time, simply by making a public declaration. if one is too lazy to do that then the religion cannot be held responsible. there are many "islamic" countries where publically renouncing islam can be quite dangerous. these countries might not, according to you, necessarily be practicing "true" islam, but the danger still remains; one cannot blame failure to publically renounce islam on "laziness" as opposed to a desire to stay alive and well. of course, if you're planning to pull a rushdie then declaring one's leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one's other plans. in rushdie's case, the one under discussion, one can. it is tragic that in _some_ "islamic" countries this is so. there are, however, islamic countries (whose constitutions contains statements that islamic law is to be incorporated), e.g. kuwait, where one can freely make such statements without fear. not to mention that it has already been pointed out that rushdie has said in his books that he's not a muslim, and there have surely been enough readers of his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses. this story has become tiresome. the conditions are clear. if you care to make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made public statements about leaving islam prior to his writing of _tsv_. if he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather than trying to rejoin islam or go on talking about his personal 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53165">
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 well, it seemed slightly incongruous to find the union jack flying at city hall in belfast. may i ask why? it's there not because the british want it there (ni is just one big expensive problem), it's there because that is what the majority of the population of ni want. is there some problem with that? the majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps. there seems quite alot of incentive for the british to have control of ni, like using the north channel and irish sea as a waste dump (i was appalled at the dumping i saw in the harbor in belfast). it is my understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water -- it'd be quite a problem if ni got its independence from britain and then stopped accepting the waste. are you suggesting that british industry isn't making profit off the situation as well? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53167">
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 i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci, which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere. grow up, childish propagandist. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53168">
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 and no, in western countries, it isn't a "legal" concept at all, so it's not the slightest bit pertinent to the topic, which is a british author living in the united kingdom under the protection of british law. ah, yes, i keep forgetting, governments are superior entities to religious organizations. forgive me -- the gun is the higher law. this is degenerating to 'zumder logic. of course governments are superior entities, they are elected by the people, whereas religious leaders certainly are not. perhaps not in christianity, but in islam the choice of religious leaders is to be made by the people. so much for your superiority those who the people trust to make the law obviously represents the higher law. that is democracy. democracy is a basic element of islam. learn that one! ever notice that the so-called "fundamentalists" in algeria who are being repressed by the secular government won in free and democratic elections. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53170">
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 in the old testement, satan is rarely mentioned, if at all. huh? doesn't the sda bible contain the book of job? this is why there is suffering in the world, we are caught inthe crossfire. and sometimes, innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt. that's my opinion and i hope i cleared up a few things. seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has "got some 'splainin' to do" then. or did he just create satan for shits and bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. i didn't say it never mentioned satan, i said it rarely, if at all. please excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence. p.s i'm soory if i sound cranky. i apoplogize now before anyone's feelings get hurt. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53171">
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 mark, how much do you *really* know about vegetarian diets? the problem is not "some" b-vitamins, it's balancing proteins. there is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from non-animal products, and this is only of concern to vegans, who eat no meat, dairy, or eggs. i believe it is b12, and it is the only problem. supplements are available for vegans; yes, the b12 does come from animal by-products. if you are on an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet (eat dairy and eggs) this is not an issue. i didn't see the original posting, but... yes, i do know about vegetarian diets, considering that several of my close friends are devout vegetarians, and have to take vitamin supplements. b12 was one of the ones i was thinking of, it has been a long time since i read the article i once saw talking about the special dietary needs of vegetarians so i didn't quote full numbers. (considering how nice this place is. ;) b12 can also come from whole-grain rice, i understand. some brands here in australia (and other places too, i'm sure) get the b12 in the b12 tablets from whole-grain rice. are you sure those aren't an enriched type? i know it is basically rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need, but i hadn't heard of any rice having b12. just thought i'd contribute on a different issue from the norm :) you should have contributed to the programming thread earlier. :) fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au m^2 if one is a vegan (a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i.e eggs, milk, cheese, etc., after about 3 years of a vegan diet, you need to start taking b12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals.) acutally our bodies make b12, i think, but our bodies use up our own b12 after 2 or 3 lacto-oveo vegetarians, like myself, still get b12 through milk products and eggs, so we don't need supplements. and if anyone knows more, please post it. i'm nearly contridicting myself with the mish-mash of knowledge i've gleaned. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53175">
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 of course, if at some later time we think that the death penalty *is* cruel or unusual, it will be outlawed. but at the present, most people don't seem to think this way. *this* from the same fellow who speaks of an "objective" or "natural" morality. i suppose that if the majority decides slavery is ok, then it is no longer immoral? i did not claim that our system was objective. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53177">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53177" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 ezekiel 28:17 says, your hart was filled with pride because of all your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. therefore i have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze of kings." for those of you who are bible scholars, you knowthat the 1st 11 verses refer to the prince of tyre. this is a prophesy about and addressed to the human prince. verses 12-19 refer to the king of tyre, which is a term for tammy, what's the rationale to connect the prince of tyre with satan, could you give us more rational bible cites, thanks? i'm afraid that if this is not the case, your thinking model falls apart like a house of cards. but let's see! sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. at the time ezekiel was written, israel was in apostacy again and if i'm not mistaken, tyre was about to make war on israel. like i said, the prince of tyre was the human ruler of tyre. he was a wicked man. by calling satan the king of tyre, ezekiel was saying that satan is the real ruler over tyre. don't think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox christian one, although most christian bible commentaries interpret the king of tyre as being a reference to satan. (i haven't read ezekiel throughly in a long time.) 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53179">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53179" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 look, i'm not the one that made those nazi comparisons. other people compared what the religious people are doing now to nazi germany. they have said that it started out with little things (but no one really knew about any of these "little" things, strangely enough) and grew to bigger things. they said that the motto is but one of the little things you just contradicted yourself. the motto is one of those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning to you, huh? the "`little' things" above were in reference to germany, clearly. people said that there were similar things in germany, but no one could name any. they said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they weren't going to waste their time repeating them. sounds to me like no one knew, either. i looked in some books, but to no avail. that is going to pave the way for other "intrusions." of course, if the motto hasn't caused problems in its 40 year history, then i doubt it is going to... it *has* caused problems. you just ignore every instance when someone describes one to you. it has *caused* problems? again, no one has shown that things were better before the motto, or that they'd likely be better after. i don't think the motto initiates any sort of harassment. harassment will occur whether or not the motto is present. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53180">
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 i think you should support your first claim, that people will simply harass me no matter what, as i doubt this is true. i think *some* of the theists will be at a loss, and that is enough reason for me. because "in god we trust" is a motto on the coins, and the coins are a representation of the government, christians are given ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic. so, we should ban the ammunition? why not get rid of the guns? and yes, i have heard this used in conversation with christians. sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they should not have available to use. it is worse than others? the national anthem? should it be changed too? god bless america? the list goes on... imagine if the next year's set of coins were labeled with the motto: "god is dead". certainly, such a statement on u.s. coins would offend almost every christian. and i'd be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring. then you'd be no better than the people you despise. any statement printed on an item that represents the government is an endorsement by the government. the coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god. an endorsement, or an acknowledgement? i think gods are things that people are proud of, but i don't think the motto encourages belief. i don't particularly feel like trusting in god, so the government is putting me down with every coin it prints. is it? for the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read: "in god, gods, or godlessness we trust" would you approve of such a motto? whether the motto was intended to be anti-atheist or not, it turns up as an open invitation to use as an anti-atheist tool. and removing the tool will solve the problem? or will it increase the problem? 
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 i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong. if you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what purpose in mind. then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance with the general goal. i don't think you've show the existence of *any* objective moral system. they exist, but in practice, they are difficult to perfectly emulate. i mean, you understand the concept of an objective system, right? i thought you were explaining it to us. i certainly don't understand what you are explaining. in an objective system, there are known goals. then, actions are judged as either being compatible with these goals, or not. simple. the problem with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ. that is, the goals of each society are different. note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one. the concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are "right" or "wrong," and this depends on the moral system. but, if we have an objective system, then someone can be deemed innocent or not quite easily by an omniscient person. anyway, i think i cleared up the recursive definition of "murder," because no one is complaining about it. i don't think it solves anything to speculate where we would be if we *did* have an objective moral system. the question is still whether you can even say what one is. i've said it many, many times. and for what it's worth, i don't think you cleared up *anything* concerning murder. which part do you have a problem with? what do you mean by "harmed?" is it harm if you have to spend your existence metabolising food for another species? oh, most moral systems would be considered only within a species. it is okay for us to enslave other animals, right? but not humans... of course, ideally, perhaps we wouldn't even have to bother any other animals... one the first point, it's wrong to enslave humans according to my persoanl moral system. on the second point, i'm a vegetarian. but, we can enslave the animals, right? but just not kill them? or are you a vegetarian for health reasons? so, are you a vegetarian? no. i fail to see how my *personal* views are relevant, anyway. is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system? of course not. it seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species for food. it might be nice, though, if the other animals were not made to suffer. for instance, a cow in a field lives out its life just about the same way it would in the wild. they seem happy enough. however, the veal youngsters aren't treated very well. how about an "objective" moral system? i don't know. what is the goal of this particular system? there is no inherent system. how about a "natural" moral system. nope. again, it seems okay to kill other species for food. 
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 i would like to take the liberty to quote from a christian writer named ellen g. white. i hope that what she said will help you to edit your remarks in this group in the future. "do not set yourself as a standard. do not make your opinions, your views of duty, your interpretations of scripture, a criterion for others and in your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal." thoughts fromthe mount of blessing p. 124 i hope quoting this doesn't make the atheists gag, but i think ellen white put it better than i could. bobby mozumder my point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe. saying that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups. i see in your posts a spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don' t believe exactly as you do. if you're here to try to convert the atheists here, you're failing miserably. who wants to be in position of constantly defending themselves agaist insulting attacks, like you seem to like to do?! i'm sorry you're so blind that you didn't get the messgae in the quote, everyone else has seemed to. 
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 the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the messiah, or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of jews built into godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of roman oppression, or....... some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would die for a lie? are the moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into jewish embassies dying for the truth (hint: they think they are)? were the nazi soldiers in wwii dying for the truth? people die for lies all the time. wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people was hitler a liar? how about napoleon, mussolini, ronald reagan? we spend millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying? so the answer is no, they wouldn't be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied about some things. gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed. call me a fool, but i believe he did heal people. why do you think he healed people, because the bible says so? but if god doesn't exist (the other possibility) then the bible is not divinely inspired and one can't use it as a piece of evidence, as it was written by unbiased observers. niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example were hitler or mussolini lunatics? how about genghis khan, jim jones... there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see this right away. therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the real thing. so we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other possibilities not given in this triad. some other things to note. he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms, isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. this in his betrayal possibly self-fulfilling prophecy (ie he was aware what he should do in order to fulfil these prophecies), possibly selective diting on behalf of those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the general; public had access. possibly also that the text is written in such riddles (like nostradamus) that anything that happens can be twisted to fit the words of raving fictional 'prophecy'. and crucifixion. i don't have my bible with me at this moment, next time i write i will use it. [stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted] i severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian, they are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer. 
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 |> >>but chimps are almost human... |> >does this mean that chimps have a moral will? |> well, chimps must have some system. they live in social groups |> as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior. ah, the verb "to must". i was warned about that one back in kindergarten. so, why "must" they have such laws? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53188">
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 first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it i _know_ i shouldn't get involved, but... :-) [bit deleted] the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would die for a lie? wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed. call me a fool, but i believe he did heal people. niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see this right away. therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the real thing. righto, dan, try this one with your cornflakes... the book says that muhammad was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day mad mahdi) or he was actually who he said he was. some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would die for a lie? wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing how his son-in-law made the sun stand still. call me a fool, but i believe he did make the sun stand still. niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to the mad mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see this right away. therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the real thing. ron house. usq (house@helios.usq.edu.au) toowoomba, australia. 
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 |> >i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci, which |> >ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim |> >community in the uk and elsewhere. |> >jon. |> grow up, childish propagandist. gregg, i'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you, but exactly who is being childish here is open to question. bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank - what will someone bet me they weren't "real" islamic owners and operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors. and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down the street? could it be that they believed an islamically owned and operated bank couldn't possibly cheat them? so please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time. 
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 |> >>so, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act |> >>to be moral one? |> >i like to think that many things are possible. explain to me |> >how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and i am happy to listen. |> for example, if it were instinctive not to murder... then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there would be nothing voluntary about it. |> >>that is, in order for an act to be an act of morality, |> >>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard |> >>it? |> >weaker than that. there must be the possibility that the |> >organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can |> >consider alternatives. |> so, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other |> beings mimics theirs? you are starting to get the point. mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated. a parrot saying "pretty polly" isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly. |> and, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence? see above. |> animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but |> they don't. they do. i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this, but you seem to have a very short memory. |> are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because |> most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do? i'm saying: "there must be the possibility that the organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives." it's right there in the posting you are replying to. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53192">
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 what if i act morally for no particular reason? then am i moral? what if morality is instinctive, as in most animals? saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to assume your conclusion. which conclusion? you conclusion - correct me if i err - that the behaviour which is instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system. see, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here. earlier, you said that it must be a conscious act. by your definition, no instinctive behavior pattern could be an act of morality. you are trying to apply human terms to non-humans. i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative, this does not prevent his behavior from being moral. you don't think that morality is a behavior pattern? what is human morality? a moral action is one that is consistent with a given pattern. that is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral. you keep getting this backwards. *you* are trying to show that the behaviour pattern is a morality. whether morality is a behavior pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would not call a morality. i try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown. and, morality can be thought of a large class of princples. it could be defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish. however, it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of phyics. it is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least some free will. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53193">
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 this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden by the us constitution. yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why a) you have the supreme court, and b) it makes no sense to refer to the constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the word "cruel". they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. they picked words whose meanings implied the intent. we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. isn't this sufficient? oh, but we were discussing the death penalty (and that discussion resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial discussion about objective morality--so this is already three times removed from the morality discussion). actually, we were discussing the mening of the word "cruel" and the us constitution says nothing about that. but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty. and, the constitution need not define each of the words within. anyone who doesn't know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did). 
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 no, that's just what you thought the theory meant. while all humans are generally capable of overpowering their instincts, it does not follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent. ok, so why aren't animals "generally capable of overpowering their instincts"? good question. i'm sure some biologist could answer better than i, but animals brains are just set up differently. animals *can* be trained, but if they're instincts serve them well, there is no reason to contradict them. 
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 excerpts from netnews.alt.atheism: 15-apr-93 re: thoughts on christians by dave fuller@portal.hq.vi i'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and worst of all . . . . respected more than atheists. there must be an end in sight. i think it'd help if we got a couple good atheists (or even some good, steadfast agnostics) in some high political offices. when was the last time we had an (openly) atheist president? have we ever? (i don't actually know; these aren't rhetorical questions.) how 'bout some supreme court justices? one thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news program on a local station...the promo said something like "who are these cults, and why do they prey on the young?" ahem. ever hear of baptism at birth? if that isn't preying on the young, i don't know what is... i used to be (ack, barf) a catholic, and was even confirmed...shortly thereafter i decided it was a load of bs. my mom, who really insisted that i continue to go to church, felt it was her duty (!) to bring me up as a believer! that was one of the more presumptuous things i've heard in my life. i suggested we go talk to the priest, and she agreed. the priest was amazingly cool about it...he basically said that if i didn't believe it, there was no good in forcing it on me. actually, i guess he wasn't amazingly cool about it--his response is what you'd hope for (indeed, expect) from a human being. i s'pose i just _didn't_ expect it... i find it absurd that religion exists; yet, i can also see its usefulness to people. facing up to the fact that you're just going to be worm food in a few decades, and that there isn't some cosmic purpose to humanity and the universe, can be pretty difficult for some people. having a readily-available, pre-digested solution to this is pretty attractive, if you're either a) gullible enough, b) willing to suspend your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind, or c) have had the stuff rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember. religion in general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses; organized religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control. chris leger sophomore, carnegie mellon computer engineering remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always ignore them! 
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 you know, it just occurred to me today that this whole christian thing can be blamed solely on mary. so, she's married to joseph. she gets knocked up. what do you think ol' joe will do if he finds she's been getting around? so mary comes up with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant. actually, it can't be all that ridiculous, considering the number of people that believe it. anyway, she never tells anyone the truth, and even tells poor little jesus that he's hot shit, the son of god. everyone else tells him this too, since they've bought mary's story. so, what does mary actually turn out to be? an adultress and a liar, and the cause of mankind's greatest folly... just my recently-minted two cents. chris leger sophomore, carnegie mellon computer engineering remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always ignore them! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53201">
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 first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. well, this is alt.atheism. i hope you arent here to try to convert anyone. it makes sense to be one. many would disagree. the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. well, you shouldn't give any particular book too much weight. actually, i don't think that any of these statements is correct. it is more likely that most of jesus' fame was attributed to him after his death by those who had some strong motives... some other things to note. he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms, isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. what's a prophecy, and what's so significant about them? i don't think most people understand what a christian is. i think we understand. it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches. rather i think it should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for god's well, sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now... don't waste any time. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53203">
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 i'll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable. i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition), almost all would want to complain. therefore i take it that to assert or believe that "freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on a rainy day. i take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist. you have only shown that a vast majority ( if not all ) would agree to this. however, there is nothing against a subjective majority. in any event, i must challenge your assertion. i know many societies- heck, many us citizens- willing to trade freedom for "security". " whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. " john laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53208">
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 and belief causes far more horrors. the emasculation and internment of native americans, the killing of various tribes in south america. -the inquisition -the counter-reformation and the wars that followed -the salem witch trials -the european witch hunts -the holy wars of the middle east -the colonization/destruction of africa -the wars between christianity and islam (post crusade) -the genocide (biblical) of the canaanites and philistines -aryian invasion of india -the attempted genocide of jews by nazi germany -the current missionary assaults on tribes in africa i think all the horrors you mentioned are due to *lack* of people following religion. .d. by lack of people following religion i also include fanatics- people that don't know what they are following. .d. so how do you know that you were right? why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors. it really covers yourself- something false to save yourself. bobby mozumder i just thought of another one, in the bible, so it's definately not because of *lack* of religion. the book of esther (which i read the other day for other reasons) describes the origin of pur'im, a jewish celbration of joy and peace. the long and short of the story is that 75,000 people were killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions lying about (you couldn't swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice, peaceful solution.) 'course joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to mind... i agree with bobby this far: religion as it is used to kill large numbers of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally intended for. that doesn't reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion, it is just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in the universe. the very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war. many people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own stomache-contentsthan in any absolute truth, and have therefore been driven to kill by their leaders. the point is that there are many things involved in religion that often lead to war. whether these things are a part of religion, an unpleasant side effect or (as bobby would have it) the result of people switching between religion and atheism spontaneously, the results are the same. @religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest parts of man's history.@ atheists, on the other hand (preen,preen) are typically not an ideological social caste, nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs. the overuse of nazism and stalinism just show how true this is: two groups with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to further their means. anyone who cannot see the obvious - namely that these were groups founded for reasons *entirely* their own, who used religious persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more powerfull - is trying too hard. basically, bobby uses these examples because there are so few wars that were *not* *specifically* fought over religion that he does not have many choices. well, i'm off to key west where the only flames are heating the bottom of little silver butter-dishes. -chris blask 
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 |> >i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform |> >the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong. |> if you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what |> purpose in mind. then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be |> able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance |> with the general goal. but now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way, and i don't think you've even noticed. in another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the "goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive. but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species, either terrestrial or alien. does that make it moral to do so? 
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 schneider) says: sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they should not have available to use. it is worse than others? the national anthem? should it be changed too? god bless america? the list goes on... worse? maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt. supposedly follows. maybe the others should be changed to? but i'm not personally as concerned about the anthem since i don't come across it in daily nearly unavoidable routines. every christian. and i'd be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring. then you'd be no better than the people you despise. i don't despise the people...just their opinions. i meant when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea other than their own...then it just becomes an exercise for for the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read: "in god, gods, or godlessness we trust" would you approve of such a motto? no. ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that. 
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 |> >>>>what if i act morally for no particular reason? then am i moral? what |> >>>>if morality is instinctive, as in most animals? |> >>>saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to |> >>>assume your conclusion. |> >>which conclusion? |> >you conclusion - correct me if i err - that the behaviour which is |> >instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system. |> see, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here. earlier, you said |> that it must be a conscious act. by your definition, no instinctive |> behavior pattern could be an act of morality. you are trying to apply |> human terms to non-humans. pardon me? *i* am trying to apply human terms to non-humans? i think there must be some confusion here. i'm the guy who is saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does *not* have any moral sugnificance. how does refusing to apply human terms to animals get turned into applying human terms? |> i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative, |> this does not prevent his behavior from being moral. i'm sure you do think this, if you say so. how about trying to convince me? |> >>you don't think that morality is a behavior pattern? what is human |> >>morality? a moral action is one that is consistent with a given |> >>pattern. that is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral. |> >you keep getting this backwards. *you* are trying to show that |> >the behaviour pattern is a morality. whether morality is a behavior |> >pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for |> >example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would |> >not call a morality. |> i try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown. i've offered, four times, i think, to accept your definition if you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion of the planets. |> and, morality can be thought of a large class of princples. it could be |> defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish. however, |> it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of |> phyics. it is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least |> some free will. ah, the law of "silly" and "less silly". what mr livesey finds intuitive is "silly" but what mr schneider finds intuitive is "less silly". now that's a devastating argument, isn't it. 
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 well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by khomeini would not be relevant to you. i can understand your fear of persecution and i share it even more than you (being muslim), however rushdie's behavior was not completely excusable. as much as i considered some of the (so-called) islam-related dialogue here a total waste of time, i somehow can't restrain myself in this instance, so, gregg, try this: 20:52 p.s.t. i come to my senses and accept the all-knowing wisdom and power of the quran and allah. not only that, but allah himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. allah rolls a few bones and we get down. then allah gets out the crisco, bends over, and invites me to take a spin around the block. wow. 20:56 p.s.t. i realize that maybe allah is looking for more of a commitment than i'm ready for, so i say "man, i've got some programming to do. gotta go. i'll call you." 20:59 p.s.t thinking it over, i renounce islam. btw, gregg, allah said he still thinks of you. 
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 yes, but, fortunately, religions have been replaced by systems that value human rights higher. secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life, islam places the rights of society and every member in it above the rights of the individual, this is what i call true human rights. by the way, do you actually support the claim of precedence of islamic law? in case you do, what about the laws of other religions? as a muslim living in a non-muslim land i am bound by the laws of the land i live in, but i do not disregard islamic law it still remains a part of my life. if the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent that i am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then i must leave the land. so in a way islamic law does take precendence over secular law but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too. in an islamic state (one ruled by a khaliphate) religions other than islam are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don't affect the genral population and don't come into direct conflict with state laws, dhimmis (non-muslim population) are exempt from most islamic laws on religion, such as fighting in a jihad, giving zakat (alms giving) etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as military protection and if they are poor they will receive zakat. if not, what has it got to do with rushdie? and has anyone reliable information if he hadn't left islam according to islamic law? or is the burden of proof on him? after the fatwa didn't rushdie re-affirm his faith in islam, didn't he go thru' a very public "conversion" to islam? if so he is binding himself to islamic laws. he has to publicly renounce in his belief in islam so the burden is on him. c i t i z e n +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ _____ _____ | c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc. | \_/ | masud ahmed khan mas@cadence.com all my opinions| _____/ \_____ +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ 
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 oh, this all sounds so nice! everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere. wake up! people are just not like that. it seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people. isn't it obvious from places like iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society then they are going to be attracted to positions of power? sounds like a recipe for disaster. leonard e-mail: l.newnham@bradford.ac.uk leonard, i'll give you an example of this.... my father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised 60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this is an example of a muslim community helping one another, why did they help because of their common identity as muslims. in turn my father has helped with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more fortunate in the community. the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight! ithat is the beauty of islam. c i t i z e n +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ _____ _____ | c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc. | \_/ | masud ahmed khan mas@cadence.com all my opinions| _____/ \_____ +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ 
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 sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they should not have available to use. it is worse than others? worse? maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt. supposedly follows. for the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read: "in god, gods, or godlessness we trust" would you approve of such a motto? no. ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that. what is wrong with *this* motto, now? if you wouldn't approve of even that one, i am beginning to think that you just have something against mottos in general. what do you think of "e plurbis unum?" 
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 in another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the "goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive. that's right. humans have gone somewhat beyond this though. perhaps our goal is one of self-actualization. but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species, either terrestrial or alien. now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. this was not part of the original premise. does that make it moral to do so? which type of morality are you talking about? in a natural sense, it is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't adversely affect your own, i guess). 
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 welcome. i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you). your have been awarded the nickname of "buckminster." so the next time you post an article, sign with your nickname like so: dave "buckminster" fuller. thanks again. jim "humor means never having to say you're sorry" copeland of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?). since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here! 
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 |> >>the "`little' things" above were in reference to germany, clearly. people |> >>said that there were similar things in germany, but no one could name any. |> >that's not true. i gave you two examples. one was the rather |> >pevasive anti-semitism in german christianity well before hitler |> >arrived. the other was the system of social ranks that were used |> >in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest |> >of the population. |> these don't seem like "little things" to me. at least, they are orders |> worse than the motto. do you think that the motto is a "little thing" |> that will lead to worse things? you don't think these are little things because with twenty-twenty hindsight, you know what they led to. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53222">
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 |> >in another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the |> >"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive. |> that's right. humans have gone somewhat beyond this though. perhaps |> our goal is one of self-actualization. humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly? in one thread you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong. so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion? the long- term survival of the human species, or what? how does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign "right" and "wrong" to actions? |> >but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long |> >term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some |> >other species, either terrestrial or alien. |> now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. this |> was not part of the original premise. well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time, so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right" and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is. |> >does that make it moral to do so? |> which type of morality are you talking about? in a natural sense, it |> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't |> adversely affect your own, i guess). i'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign "right" and "wrong" to actions. you tell us what type of morality that is. 
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 |> leonard, i'll give you an example of this.... |> my father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds |> and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised |> 60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and |> muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after |> paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans |> to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this |> is an example of a muslim community helping one another, why did they help |> because of their common identity as muslims. in turn my father has helped |> with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay |> and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more |> fortunate in the community. sorry. wrong. this is how banks got started in the first place. sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone who eventually goes broke, and then they will realise that they havn't been managing risk very well. then they will ask themselves what it is that they need to quantify risk, and to persuade borrowers not to take on greater loans than they can carry. and since they don't all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the money, some of them will specialise in that. then they'll reinvent interest, but like good muslims, they'll call it something else. |> the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight! |> ithat is the beauty of islam. riiiight. that's why john major opened a new government department a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business. because they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53224">
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 |> >>>explain to me |> >>>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and i am happy to listen. |> >>for example, if it were instinctive not to murder... |> >then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there |> >would be nothing voluntary about it. |> see, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant |> if it is "voluntary." why do you think this? if you force me to do something, am i morally responsible for it? |> and anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts. well, make up your mind. is it to be "instinctive not to murder" or not? |> >>so, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other |> >>beings mimics theirs? |> >you are starting to get the point. mimicry is not necessarily the |> >same as the action being imitated. a parrot saying "pretty polly" |> >isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly. |> you are attaching too many things to the term "moral," i think. |> let's try this: is it "good" that animals of the same species |> don't kill each other. or, do you think this is right? it's not even correct. animals of the same species do kill one another. |> or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do |> is either right nor wrong? sigh. i wonder how many times we have been round this loop. i think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance. i am quite prepared to believe that higher animals, such as primates, have the beginnings of a moral sense, since they seem to exhibit self-awareness. |> >>animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but |> >>they don't. |> >they do. i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly |> >this, but you seem to have a very short memory. |> those weren't arbitrary killings. they were slayings related to some |> sort of mating ritual or whatnot. so what? are you trying to say that some killing in animals has a moral significance and some does not? is this your natural morality> |> >>are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because |> >>most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do? |> >i'm saying: |> > "there must be the possibility that the organism - it's not |> > just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives." |> >it's right there in the posting you are replying to. |> yes it was, but i still don't understand your distinctions. what |> do you mean by "consider?" can a small child be moral? how about |> a gorilla? a dolphin? a platypus? where is the line drawn? does |> the being need to be self aware? are you blind? what do you think that this sentence means? "there must be the possibility that the organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives." what would that imply? |> what *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of |> the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other? don't |> you find the fact that they don't at all significant? i find the fact that they do to be significant. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53225">
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 what do you base your belief on atheism on? your knowledge and reasoning? couldn't that be wrong? actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. ignorance of the existence of any god. don't fall into the "atheists don't believe because of their pride" mistake. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53228">
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 what i've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior. do i smell .sig material here? bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53229">
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 but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty. and, the constitution need not define each of the words within. anyone who doesn't know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did). or, with no dictionary available, they could gain first hand knowledge by suffering through one of your posts. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53230">
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 the "`little' things" above were in reference to germany, clearly. people said that there were similar things in germany, but no one could name any. they said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they weren't going to waste their time repeating them. sounds to me like no one knew, either. i looked in some books, but to no avail. if the anne frank exhibit makes it to your small little world, take an afternoon to go see it. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53235">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53235" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly? in one thread you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong. so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion? the long- term survival of the human species, or what? well, that's the question, isn't it? the goals are probably not all that obvious. we can set up a few goals, like happiness and liberty and the golden rule, etc. but these goals aren't inherent. they have to be defined before an objective system is possible. how does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign "right" and "wrong" to actions? it is not too difficult, one you have goals in mind, and absolute knoweldge of everyone's intent, etc. now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. this was not part of the original premise. well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time, so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right" and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is. omniscience is fine, as long as information is not given away. isn't this the resolution of the free will problem? an interactive omniscient being changes the situation. which type of morality are you talking about? in a natural sense, it is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't adversely affect your own, i guess). i'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign "right" and "wrong" to actions. you tell us what type of morality that is. well, i was speaking about an objective system in general. i didn't mention a specific goal, which would be necessary to determine the morality of an action. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53237">
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 i'm only saying that anything can happen under atheism. being a beleiver, a knowledgeable one in religion, only good can happen. this is becoming a tiresome statement. coming from you it is a definition, not an assertion: islam is good. belief in islam is good. therefore, being a believer in islam can produce only good...because islam is good. blah blah blah. that's about as circular as it gets, and equally meaningless. to say that something produces only good because it is only good that it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition. and all you're application is saying that it's true if you really believe it's true. that's silly. conversely, you say off-handedly that _anything_ can happen under atheism. again, just an offshoot of believe-it-and-it-becomes-true- don't-believe-it-and-it-doesn't. like other religions i'm aquainted with, islam teaches exclusion and caste, and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no logical call for punishment (certain limits on speech and sex, for example). to me this is not good. i see much pain and suffering without any justification, except for the _waving of the hand_ of some inaccessible god. by the by, you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly. for what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of terms. i infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith. and if you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing to do with it, does it? -jim halat 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53238">
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 he'd have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam. one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god, so long as one does not _reject_ god. i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses. the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed. i'd have to say that i have a problem with any organization, religious or not, where the idea that _simple speech_ such as this is the basis for a crime. -jim halat 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53239">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53239" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 he'd have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam. one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god, so long as one does not _reject_ god. i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses. the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed. i'll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one _rejects_ god. therefore, you choose to punish only those who _talk_ about it. -jim halat 
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 date: 15 apr 93 19:20:37 edt from: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu [s.c.a quotes deleted] it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist. there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought... well, that explains some things; i posted on soc.religion.islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea among muslims. i got no response. asking about the unknown, i guess... you should have tried one of the soc.culture groups in the middle east or south asia area (they are a little more open than the islam channel). i think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the world created itself (or something like that) so each particle is a god which created the other gods. the soc.culture.african is also nice for some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion. especially when sudan is mentioned. 
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 not so. if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you blame the tiger? aha! he admits it! he is a moral relativist! keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'i think there is an absolute morality' blurb a few weeks ago. the desert brat john j mcvey, elc&eltnc eng, whyalla, uni s australia, ________ 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au t.s.a.k.c. \/darwin o\ for replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/ disclaimer: unisa hates my opinions. bb bb |"it doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "god's name is smack | |understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." | |produce it." - jim perry, perry@dsinc.com | - alice in chains | 
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 |> i hope you're not going to flame him. please give him the same coutesy you' |> ve given me. |> tammy if a person gives a well-balanced reasoned argument, tammy, then all are happy to discuss it with him. if he makes astounding claims, which are not backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them. if the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not supportable then people would have simply ignored him. he did not. he claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed. his argument was for christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe him and his message. i for one will not take things as read. if you told me that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark side of jupiter then i would demand evidence! | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53250">
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 science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, as you would wish it. you must be using 'values' to mean something different from the way i see it used normally. and you are certainly using 'science' like that if you equate it to "the real world". science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions. science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed interpretations of our observations (perceptions). it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see. values are ... well they are what i value. they are what i would have rather than not have - what i would experience rather than not, and so on. values can also refer to meaning. for example in computer science the value of 1 is true, and 0 is false. science is based on commonly agreed values (interpretation of observations), although science can result in a reinterpretation of these values. objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone. the values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been fully agreed, and the change with time. the values of newtonian physic are certainly different to those of quantum mechanics. steve lang slang->sling->slink->slick->slack->shack->shank->thank->think->thick 
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 list of killings in the name of religion 1. iran-iraq war: 1,000,000 2. civil war in sudan: 1,000,000 3, riots in india-pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000 4. massacares in bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000 5. inquistions in america in 1500s: x million (x=??) 6. crusades: ?? 7. massacre of jews in wwii: 6.3 million 8. massacre of other 'inferior races' in wwii: 10 million 9. communist purges: 20-30 million? [socialism is more or less a religion] 10. catholics v protestants : quite a few i'd imagine 11. recent goings on in bombay/iodia (sp?) area: ?? 12. disease introduced to brazilian * oher s.am. tribes: x million -- naren the desert brat john j mcvey, elc&eltnc eng, whyalla, uni s australia, ________ 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au t.s.a.k.c. \/darwin o\ for replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/ disclaimer: unisa hates my opinions. bb bb |"it doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "god's name is smack | |understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." | |produce it." - jim perry, perry@dsinc.com | - alice in chains | 
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 but really, are you threatened by the motto, or by the people that use it? every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm, it is infact re-inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for themselves. the motto is dangerous in itself, it tells the world that every *true* american is god-fearing, and puts down those who do not fear gods. it doesn't need anyone to make it dangerous, it does a good job itself by just existing on your currency. the desert brat john j mcvey, elc&eltnc eng, whyalla, uni s australia, ________ 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au t.s.a.k.c. \/darwin o\ for replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/ disclaimer: unisa hates my opinions. bb bb |"it doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "god's name is smack | |understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." | |produce it." - jim perry, perry@dsinc.com | - alice in chains | 
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 bennett, neil. "how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking". the times. august 13, 1991. so, let's see. if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so, is that it? gregg, you haven't provided even a title of an article to support *your* this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it, gregg. any questions? and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass. what's your excuse? this supports nothing. i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti-islamic slander job. you also have no reason to believe it *is* an anti-islamic slander job, apart from your own prejudices. i have no respect for titles, only for real content. i can look up this article if i want, true. but i can tell you bcci was _not_ an islamic bank. why, yes. what's a mere report in the times stating that bcci followed islamic banking rules? gregg *knows* islam is good, and he *knows* bcci were bad, therefore bcci *cannot* have been islamic. anyone who says otherwise is obviously spreading slanderous propaganda. if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i'd be glad to have a real discussion, providing references, etc. i see. if someone wants to provide references to articles you agree with, you will also respond with references to articles you agree with? mmm, yes, that would be a very intellectually stimulating debate. doubtless that's how you spend your time in soc.culture.islam. i've got a special place for you in my... ...kill file. right next to bobby. want to join him? the more you post, the more i become convinced that it is simply a waste of time to try and reason with moslems. is that what you are hoping to achieve? 
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 |> yet i am still not a believer. is god not concerned with my |> disposition? why is it beneath him to provide me with the |> evidence i would require to believe? the evidence that my |> personality, given to me by this god, would find compelling? the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him. he promises to be there for you, but you have to look for yourself. those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort. simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". our ability to reason is just a spec of creation. yet some think it is the ultimate. if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now. to learn you must accept that which you don't know. 
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 atoms are not objective. they aren't even real. what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. all of which is subjective. this deserves framing. it really does. "[atoms] aren't even real." tell me then, those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now, so what are they? figments of our imaginations? the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming, but i won't bother with most evidence at the moment. ha ha ha! sorry, but having studied cell biology, i have to say that "i can see it through an electron microscope, therefore it is real" is a laughable [...stuff deleted...] thank you. i thought i was in the twilight zone for a moment. it still amazes me that many people with science backgrounds still confuse the models and observables with what even they would call the real world. -jim halat you were a liberal arts major, weren'tcha? guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world-- "ibm" made with noble gas atoms (krypton? xenon? i forget the specifics). atoms, trees, electrons are all independently observable and verifiable. morals aren't. see the difference? just for the record ( not that any kind of information would be likely to affect your thinking ) i have an msee -- focus in electromagnetics -- from penn. a photo of the smallest logo in the world does not an atom make. what was observed is something we can measure that matches what the mathematical model we call an atom had predicted. much in the same way that we need both a particle model and a wave model for light, the atomic model is a mathematical representation of physical phenomena. a model that can and probably will continue to change over time. that makes it subjective (the model that is). however, the model gives us an objective way to talk about the physical world. to put it another way, the quantum mechanical model of the atom allows for discussion of the atom that will give repeatable and unambiguous results, which is objective. however, as bohr and einstein duked it out mid-century, the interpretation of those reapeatable, observable measurements is quite subjective. bohr said that the observable randomness of atomic motion was inherent in the nature of the universe. einstein said particle motion was deterministic, but it was our measurement shortcomings that introduced the randomness. they were talking about the exact same results, though. -jim halat 
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 there lies the hypocrisy, dude. atheism takes as much faith as theism. admit it! some people might think it takes faith to be an atheist... but faith in what? does it take some kind of faith to say that the great invisible pink unicorn does not exist? does it take some kind of faith to say that santa claus does not exist? if it does (and it may for some people i suppose) it certainly isn't as big a leap of faith to say that these things (and god) do exist. (i suppose it depends on your notion and definition of "faith".) besides... not believing in a god means one doesn't have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it! this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free, especially after beaten over the head with it for years! i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it's important. however, trying to force a psychological fantasy (i don't mean that in a bad way, but that's what it really is) on someone else who isn't interested is extremely rude. what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my belief in santa did wonderful things for my life (making me a better person, allowing me to live without guilt, etc...) and then tried to get you to believe in santa too just 'cuz he did so much for me? you'd call the men in white coats as soon as you could get to a phone. bake timmons, iii nanci (just babbling... :-)) if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): spring is nature's way of saying, 'let's party!' 
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 many atheists do not mock the concept of a god, they are shocked that so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually believe in a god. you accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy, again without evidence. rule *2: condescending to the population at large (i.e., theists) will >not win many people to your faith anytime soon. it only ruins your credibility. fallacy #1: atheism is a faith. lo! i hear the faq beckoning once again... [wonderful rule #3 deleted - you're correct, you didn't say anything >about a conspiracy] correction: _hard_ atheism is a faith. rule #4: don't mix apples with oranges. how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin? khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause. that was atrocious. but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! how can anyone be worse than that? i will not explain this to you again: stalin did nothing in the name of atheism. whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant. get a grip, man. the stalin example was brought up not as an indictment of atheism, but merely as another example of how people will kill others under any name that's fit for the occasion. rule #6: if you rely on evidence, state it. we're waiting. as opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper... atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else. it is the burden of dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their 'evidence'. which 'we' might you be referring to, and how long are you going to wait? so hard atheism has nothing to prove? then how does it justify that god does not exist? i know, there's the faq, etc. but guess what -- if those justifications were so compelling why aren't people flocking to _hard_ atheism? they're not, and they won't. i for one will discourage people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable statements on hard atheism. second, what makes you think i'm defending any given religion? i'm merely recognizing hard atheism for what it is, a faith. and yes, by "we" i am referring to every reader of the post. where is the evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon? oh yes, though i'm not a theist, i can say safely that *by definition* many theists are not arrogant, since they boast about something _outside_ themselves, namely, a god or gods. so in principle it's hard to see how theists are necessarily arrogant. because they say, "such-and-such is absolutely unalterably true, because my dogma says it is true." i am not prepared to issue blanket statements indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists. bzzt! by virtue of your innocent little pronoun, "they", you've just issued a blanket statement. at least i will apologize by qualifying my original statement with "hard atheist" in place of atheist. would you call john the baptist arrogant, who boasted of one greater than he? that's what many christians do today. how is that _in itself_ arrogant? i'm not worthy! only seriously misinformed. with your sophisticated put-down of "they", the theists, _your_ serious misinformation shines through. bake timmons, iii -- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory..." -- alyosha in brothers karamazov (dostoevsky) 
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 with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity, i thought the following quotes by mr. james holly, the anti-masonic flag carrier, would amuse you all... the following passages are exact quotes from "the southern baptist convention and freemasonry" by james l. holly, m.d., president of mission and ministry to men, inc., 550 n 10th st., beaumont, tx the inside cover of the book states: "mission & ministry to men, inc. hereby grants permission for the reproduction of part or all of this booklet with two provisions: one, the material is not changed and two, the source is identified." i have followed these provisions. "freemasonry is one of the allies of the devil" page iv. "the issue here is not moderate or conservative, the issue is god and the devil" page vi." "it is worthwhile to remember that the formulators of public school education in america were freemasons" page 29. "jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples, and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message." page 30. "the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity, liberty and equality is toleration. this is seen in the writings of the 'great' writers of freemasonry". page 31. "he [jesus christ] established the most sectarian of all possible faiths." page 37. "for narrowness and sectarianism, there is no equal to the lord jesus christ". page 40. "what seems so right in the interest of toleration and its cousins-liberty, equality and fraternity-is actually one of the subtlest lies of the 'father of lies.'" page 40. "the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded in the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated by the lodge. each of these churches should hold public ceremonies of repentance and of praying the blood and the name of the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken at the dedication of the church and/or building." page 53-54. 
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 merely a question for the basis of morality moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. i disagree with these. what society thinks should be irrelevant. what the individual decides is all that is important. 1)who is society i think this is fairly obvious 2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy i can think of. 3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? by thinking for ourselves. michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits. 
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 i have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with a theist acquaintance. he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable-perfect. this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time; the time quoted by my acquaintace was approximately 50 years after the death of jesus. hi adda, most bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain time -- the time when the author wrote it. unfortunately, like all works from this time period and earlier, all that exists today are copies. cutting all of the crap out of the way (ie god wrote it) could anyone answer the following: 1. how old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament? there are parts of books, scraps really, that date from around the mid second century (a.d. 130+). there are some complete books, letters, etc. from the middle third century. the first complete collection of the new testament dates from the early 4th century (a.d. 325). throughout this period are writings of various early church fathers/leaders who quoted various scriptures in their writings. 2. is there any truth in my acquaintance's statements? if you mean that someone discovered thousands of "bibles" which were all perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st century...no! if you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts (within the dates given above, but not letter perfect) and that the most probable text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest original autographs (now lost) probably were written starting sometime shortly after a.d. 50, then yes. 3. from who/where did the bible originate? from the original authors. we call them matthew, mark, luke, john, peter, paul, james, and one other not identified. 4. how long is a piece of string? ;-) as long as you make it. jim b. 
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 bob, if you're wanting an excuse to convert to christianity, you gonna have to look elsewhere. damn. and i did so have my hopes up. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 as i know you can't get any physical problems by passive christianity, unlike smoking. it's not that hard to avoid christianity today, anyway. just ignore 'em. right on keith, err, kent. whadda you mean, you didn't see the smiley? bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 when the various bill conners and bobbys post here, i felt that their passive-aggressive "knock that chip off my shoulder" type of approach meant that attempts at reasoned argument would be wasted. i still think that. however, while more primitive responses (teasing, bronx cheers, sarcasm) are somewhat satisfying ( :-) apologies to anyone who still thinks bobby is a performance artist! ), some of them feed in to a pointless, circular round of ad hominem name-calling. witness: precisely my position. as a newbie, i tried the point-by-point approach to debate with these types. it wasted both my time and my lifespan. ignoring them is not an option, since they don't go away, and doing so would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this what's left? healthy flaming. i'm sure on occassion i've appeared to be little more than a caustic boob to some of the bobby types. but why waste breath arguing with someone whose most rational though process involves his excretory system? and i stand by my record of recognizing these people long before most of the rest of the group. so let's see what this timmons character has in store for us... bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 hi! i don't know much about mormons, and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon. i don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven, but haven't read the book of mormon by myself (i have to much work learning biblical hebrew), i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on. for example: there is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers? there are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later discovered by archeologist? yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla 14801 - santiago 21 agrino@enkidu.mic.cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta 
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 wait a minute. you said *never* play a chamberlain. since the us *is* playing chamberlain as far as east timor is concerned, wouldn't that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing to do with the gulf war? actually, i rather like your idea. perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed (or maybe missiled) washington when the us invaded nicaragua, grenada, panama, vietnam, mexico, hawaii, or any number of other places. wait a minute, doug. i know you are better informed than that. the us has never invaded nicaragua (as far as i know). we liberated grenada from the cubans to protect us citizens there and to prevent the completion of a strategic air strip. panama we invaded, true (twice this century). vietnam? we were invited in by the government of s. vietnam. (i guess we "invaded" saudi arabia during the gulf war, eh?) mexico? we have invaded mexico 2 or 3 times, once this century, but there were no missiles for anyone to shoot over here at that time. hawaii? we liberated it from so if you mean by the word "invaded" some sort of military action where we cross someone's border, you are right 5 out of 6. but normally "invaded" carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation. (if some nation "invades" the u.s. virgin islands, would they be invading the virgin islands or the u.s.?) so from this point of view, your score falls to 2 out of 6 (mexico, panama). what's a "peace-nik"? is that somebody who *doesn't* masturbate over "guns'n'ammo" or what? is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik? no, it's someone who believes in "peace-at-all-costs". in other words, a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia, but poland too if it could have averted the war. and one who would allow hitler to wipe all *all* jews, slavs, and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone. "is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik," you ask? well, it depends on what your values are. if you value life over liberty, peace over freedom, then i guess not. but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself; if you'd rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant's heel, then yes, it's "bad" to be a peace-nik. the problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable". i would not have any argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with the national defense. but no, they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point-of-view. they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace. (what rank hypocrisy!) all to stop we "warmongers" who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants, and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense. time to get off the soapbox now. :) doug graham dgraham@bnr.ca my opinions are my own. jim b. 
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 #in <1qvabj$g1j@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) #>in article <c5qgm3.dl8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (mike #am i making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals? where do they come #from? the question came from the idea that i heard that morals come from #whatever is societally mandated. it's only one aspect of morality. societal morality is necessarily very crude and broad-brush stuff which attempts to deal with what is necessary to keep that society going - and often it's a little over-enthusiastic about doing so. individual morality is a different thing, it often includes societal mores (or society is in trouble), but is stronger. for example, some people are vegetarian, though eating meat may be perfectly legal. #>#merely a question for the basis of morality #>#moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. #>#1)who is society #>depends on the society. #doesn't help. is the point irrelevant? no. often the answer is "we are". but if society is those who make the rules, that's a different question. if society is who should make the rules, that's yet another. i don't claim to have the answers, either, but i don't think we do it very well in ireland, and i like some things about the us system, at least in principle. #>#2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? #>depends. #on.... again, this comes from a certain question (see above). well, ideally they don't, but if they must they should do it by consensus, imo. #>#3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? #>by adopting a default position that people's moral decisions #>are none of society's business, #so how can we put people in jail? how can we condemn other societies? because sometimes that's necessary. the hard trick is to recognise when it is, and equally importantly, when it isn't. # and only interfering when it's truly #>necessary. #why would it be necessary? what right do we have to interfere? imo, it isn't often that interference (i.e. jail, and force of various kinds and degrees) is both necessary and effective. where you derive the right to interfere is a difficult question - it's a sort of liar's paradox: "force is necessary for freedom". one possible justification is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn't object if their own freedom is taken away - the paradox doesn't arise if we don't actively wish to take way anyone's freedom. # the introduction of permissible interference causes the problem #>that it can be either too much or too little - but most people seem #>to agree that some level of interference is necessary. #they see the need for a "justice" system. how can we even define that term? only by consensus, i guess. # thus you #>get a situation where "the law often allows what honour forbids", which i've #>come to believe is as it should be. #i admit i don't understand that statement. what i mean is that, while thus-and-such may be legal, thus-and-such may also be seen as immoral. the law lets you do it, but you don't let yourself do it. eating meat, for example. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 date: 14 apr 1993 23:52:11 gmt from: frank o'dwyer <frank@d012s658.uucp> just borrowing your post, mr. rice... #>are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind #>the massacres in east timor? it is certainly odd that so many of the worlds #>massacres occur along religious lines, independently of any claims to a #>democratic form of government. are ireland and northern ireland considered #>democracies? would you attribute their problems to democracy even though #>they are democracies? which motivates them more, religion or democracy? mr. rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that islam is evil because some of those who claim to follow it are evil, not asserting that democracy causes massacres, as i read it. that is right, he was. and i was pointing out that his use of indonesians killing the east timorese as a result of _democracy_ was a bit weak because democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in indonesia from what i remember. east timor was a former portguese territory which was forcibly annexed by indonesia. last i heard over 10,000 indonesians have died trying to keep east timor a part of indonesia. being a former portuguese colony, there is a strong catholic influence in east timor as i recall. so it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being fought between people who just "happen" to have different religions. purely coincidental, i guess. but then the real motivation is to get the vote out and make democracy work in indonesia. i pointed out the secession movement in aceh which has also been brutally dealt with in the past by the indonesian government. the harshly with all secessionist movements. the evidence, it appears to me that the indonesian government has dealt very harshly with all secession movements. i know that the head of the indonesian armed forces for a very long time was benny murdani -- a "christian". indonesia has been heavy handed in east timor for a long time , even when murdani was head of the armed forces. the people who make up the indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests, not religious ones. fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 my my, there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands. :) ok, first i apologize. i didn't bother reading the faq first and so fired an imprecise flame. that was inexcusable. how about the nickname bake "flamethrower" timmons? sure, but robert "koresh-fetesh" (sic) knowles seems good, too. :) you weren't at the koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you? remember, koresh "dried" for your sins. and pass that beef jerky. umm umm. though i wasn't there, at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he's doing. have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and david koresh? bake timmons, iii -- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory..." -- alyosha in brothers karamazov (dostoevsky) 
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 yes. fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil^h^h^hkuwait. we won the war, hurrah hurrah! the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media. the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century! let's analyze this claim a little. how is the "size" of a war defined? by number of participants? geographical area? number of countries involved? number of casualties? size of armies, duration, numbers of casualties both absolute and as a percentage of those involved, geographical area and numbers of countries too, are all measures of size. in this case i'd say the relevant statistic would be the number of combatants (total troops) compared to total casualties from among the total civilian population in the affected geographical area. which other "comparable" wars are we talking about? vietnam and korea might make good comparisons. which "liberal news media" are we talking about? western news in general, but in particular the american "mass media": cbs, nbc, abc, etc. the general tone of the news during the whole war was one of "those poor, poor iraqis" along with "look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building to bits". this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently. i suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too. i agree. how about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in ww2? i don't hear you bemoaning them! perhaps because the topic hasn't cropped up. if you want my opinion, i think that the blanket bombing of german cities at the end of world war two was the most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in centuries. bomber harris was no hero of mine. perhaps so. and maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too. but that's easy to say from our "enlightened" viewpoint here in the 90's, right? back then, it was *all-out* war, and germany and japan had to be squashed. after all, a million or more british had already died, hundreds of thousands of french, a couple hundread thousand or so americans, and millions of russians, not to mention a few million jews, poles, and other people of slavic descent in german concentration camps. all things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick end to avoid even greater allied losses. i, for one, don't regret it. war is never an exact science, but with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties. sometimes mistakes are made; targets are misidentified; innocents die. that's war the way it really is. entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without regard for the lives of other people, *that* is the way war really is. sure. and it's the people who suffer because of them. all the more reason to depose these "entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests"! or do you mean that this applies to the allies as well?? why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor, bosnia, or even tibet? if iraq is so bad, why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before we started bombing? i make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the west before the war. it is evident that the west, especially america, misjudged hussein drastically. but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's oil supply, he had to be stopped. sure the war could have been prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the west before hussein invaded kuwait, but it is still *hussein* who is responsible for his decision to invade. and once he did so, a strong response from the west was required. mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here. you come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although i feel sure that was not your intent. what's your intent? to sound like a loving christian? well, you aren't doing a very good job of it. well, it's not very "loving" to allow a hussein or a hitler to gobble up nearby countries and keep them. or to allow them to continue with mass slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion. so, i'd have to say yes, stopping hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest. so the iraqi war was wrong, eh? i'm sure that appeasement would have worked better than war, just like it did in ww2, eh? who even mentioned appeasement? and what makes you think the situation is even remotely analogous to world war two? i mentioned it. if we hadn't intervened, allowing hussein to keep kuwait, then it would have been appeasement. it is precisely the lessons the world learned in ww2 that motivated the western alliance to war. letting hitler take austria and czechoslavkia did not stop ww2 from happening, and letting hussein keep kuwait would not have stopped an eventual gulf war to protect saudi arabia. i guess we shouldn't have fought ww2 either -- just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg. yes, do. germans are human too, you know. sure. what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler in his grandiose quest for a "thousand year reich". the consequences stemmed from that. tyrants like hussein *have* to be stopped. his kind don't understand diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun. my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into baghdad, so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people's sacrifice (not to mention the 357 americans who died) was for naught. i look forward to hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet. what should i say about them? anything in particular? and as for poor, poor rodney king! did you ever stop and think *why* the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"? yes. amongst the things i thought were "hmm, there's an awful lot of white people in that jury." so? it was the *policemen* on trial not rodney king!! and under american law they deserved a jury of *their* peers! if there had been black officers involved, i'm sure their would have been black jurors too. this point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow. those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape. but the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and i have not seen. when i see a bunch of policemen beating someone who's lying defenceless on the ground, it's rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have so? it's "hard to imagine"? so when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author of "constructing a logical argument"? can we expect another revision soon?? :) (just kidding.) if there is some wonderful evidence, why is it seemingly being kept secret? why not tell everyone what it is? then everyone could say "oh, yes, you're right, king deserved a good beating", and we could all live happily ever i have to admit that i wonder this too. but *neither* the prosecution nor the defense is talking. so one cannot conclude either way due to the silence of the principals. law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused, whether they be criminals or cops. one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict. fine, but i'm still finding it hard to imagine what the "reasonable doubt" was in this case. i mean, the cops certainly seem to be beating someone who's lying defenceless on the ground. what's your explanation? mass hallucination? orbital mind-control lasers? faked video footage? do tell. ok. it certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved. and frankly, the original "not guilty" verdict baffled me too. but then i learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably would have won, they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm. a charge, which news commentators said, was akin to attempted murder under california law. based on what the prosecution was asking for, it's evident that the first jury decided that the officers were "not guilty". note, not "not guilty" of doing wrong, but "not guilty" of aggravated assault with the *intent* of inflicting serious bodily harm. the seeds of the prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could. if the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then i feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one. [ "thou shalt not kill... unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing, in which case thou shalt kill, and also kill anyone who gets in the way, as unfortunately it cannot be helped." -- jim brown bible for loving christians ] thanks mathew, i like the quote. pretty funny actually. (i'm a monty python fan, you know. kind of seems in that vein.) of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem contradictory. but then, you know that already. jim b. loving christian :) 
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 |in article <1qv7q5$fn4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> |>#>#theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. irrational |>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism. |>#>correlation is not causation. and a belief that absolutes exist is not |>#>the same thing as a belief in absolutes, any more than belief in a shortest |>#>route from thurles to clonmel is the same thing as a knowledge of the |>#>irish roadsystem. |>#correlation is not necessarily causation. however, as you might have noticed, |>#the above allows to conclude that the correlation between religion and fanatism |>#is based on common features of religious belief. |(sorry for the long quotes, but i dont see where to cut) |>huh? are you barking mad? |hardly. |>(1) theism is not as strongly correlated with fanaticism as you say. plus |> you could find stronger correlations if you were actually interested |> in the truth instead of being as you seeming are, a bigot. |theism is correlated with fanaticism. i have neither said that all fanatism |is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. the point is, |theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. one could of course |argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but i just |have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology |to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it. imo, the influence of stalin, or for that matter, ayn rand, invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered. gullibility, blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more reliable indicators. and the really dangerous people - the sources of fanaticism - are often none of these things. they are cynical manipulators of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing. now, *some* brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism, i grant you. to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom. ever read animal farm? |>(2) define "irrational belief". e.g., is it rational to believe that |> reason is always useful? |irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. the latter has |been discussed for a long time with charley wingate. one point is that |the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does |not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information. well, there is a glaring paradox here: an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would be irrational. which is it? the first part of the second statement contains no information, because you don't say what "the beliefs" are. if "the beliefs" are strong theism and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true. the second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it. |compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of |their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational. i can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism? to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have. |the affinity to fanatism is easily seen. it has to be true because i believe |it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. however, the beliefs say they are |more than a work hypothesis. i don't understand this. can you formalise your argument? frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 : you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be : prepared for your eternal damnation!!! what do you mean "be prepared" ?? surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough . . . and i'm not even dead yet !! well here's how i prepared. i got one of those big beach umbrellas, some of those gel-pack ice things, a big coleman cooler which i've loaded up with miller draft (so i like miller draft, so sue me), a new pair of new balance sneakers, a sony watchman, and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese [stuff deleted] actually, you get a ton of weapons and ammunition, 70-80 followers, and hole up in some kind of compound, and wait for . . . . :-) alan a. deguzman calvin: "i'm so smart it's almost scary. i guess calculus&mathematica i'm a child progeny." disclaimer: "the university can't afford my opinions." hobbes: "most children are . . . " 
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 : you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be : prepared for your eternal damnation!!! what do you mean "be prepared" ?? surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough . . . and i'm not even dead yet !! well here's how i prepared. i got one of those big beach umbrellas, some of those gel-pack ice things, a big coleman cooler which i've loaded up with miller draft (so i like miller draft, so sue me), a new pair of new balance sneakers, a sony watchman, and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese i haven't decided what to wear yet. what does one wear to an eternal damnation? dean kaflowitz 
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 this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden by the us constitution. yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why a) you have the supreme court, and b) it makes no sense to refer to the constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the word "cruel". they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. they picked words whose meanings implied the intent. we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. isn't this sufficient? we only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment? hanging? hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful, both physically and psychologicall, i imagine. firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those days ], etc. all would be considered cruel under your definition. all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers. " whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. " john laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word. 
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 the arguements he uses i am summing up. the book is about whether jesus was god or not. i know many of you don't believe, but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say. read the faq first, watch the list fr some weeks, and come back then. and read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first. 
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 well, chimps must have some system. they live in social groups as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior. so, why "must" they have such laws? the quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must." if there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones, etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos. the "system" refered to a "moral system". you havn't shown any reason that chimps "must" have a moral system. except if you would like to redefine everything. " whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. " john laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word. 
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 your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts. the first i captured was by ken arromdee on 19 feb 1990, on the subject "re: atheist too?". that was article #473 here; your question was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for the last three years. as others have noted, the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large...... among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables: an interesting bunch.... i wonder where #2 is? didn't you hear? his address has changed. he can be reached at the following address: dkoresh@branch.davidian.compound.waco.tx.us i think he was last seen posting to alt.messianic. if god is dead and the actor plays his part | -- sting, his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse | nothing 
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 in <1qvh8tinnsg6@citation.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (jonathan w merely a question for the basis of morality moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. i disagree with these. what society thinks should be irrelevant. what the individual decides is all that is important. this doesn't seem right. if i want to kill you, i can because that is what i 1)who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really. if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok, there are always some in the "society" who disagree with the mandates, so which societal mandates make the standard for morality? 2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy i can think of. so what should be the basis? unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the "feeling", in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong. awfully hard to defend, though. 3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? by thinking for ourselves. i might agree here. just because certain actions are legal does not make them "moral". michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton 
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 : are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve, and that all : humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings.? then who : were cain and able's wives? couldn't be their sisters, because a&e : didn't have daughters. were they non-humans? genesis 5:4 and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters: felicitations -- chris ho-stuart 
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 |> yet i am still not a believer. is god not concerned with my |> disposition? why is it beneath him to provide me with the |> evidence i would require to believe? the evidence that my |> personality, given to me by this god, would find compelling? the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. oh no, not again. there is a difference between believing that god exists, and loving him. (for instance, satan certainly believes god exists, but does not love him.) what unbelievers request in situations like this is that god provide evidence compelling enough to believe he exists, not to compel them to love him. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. same old bullshit. not being given to delusions and wishful thinking i do not have the option of either loving or obeying that which i have so reason to believe. the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him. he promises to be there for you, but you have to look for yourself. those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort. more bullshit. i assure you in my misguided youth i made a sincere effort. it was very painful being a rational person raised in christian home. many others could tell the same story. you choose not to believe anyone's experience which contradicts your smug theories. bill mayne 
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 in <1993apr20.004119.6119@cnsvax.uwec.edu> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (david nye) [reply to cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (mike cobb)] if morals come from what is societally accepted, why follow that? what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality? pardon the extremism, but couldn't i murder your "brother" and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them, was doing what felt good, didn't want anyone forcing their morality on me, or i don't follow your "morality" ? i believe that morality is subjective. each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes. mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses. this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards. while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him, the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority. why? how? might makes right? how can they force their morality on me? why can't i do what i want? who are they to decide? what if i disagree? most criminals do not see their behavior as moral. the may realize that it is immoral and not care. they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral. good point, but it is being immoral in our opinion. we don't let them choose, we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them. for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system, he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent. some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense, but have little basis for it as of yet. how far can such a concept be extended? thus may be incapable of behaving morally. while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral, we may judge him immoral by our standards. do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him. after all, he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose. on what basis do we condemn other societies besides, here's the buzz words, on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer. why not? do we have to be objective suddenly? david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton 
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 okay, how about scott "can anybody hear me?" sauyet ssauyet@eagel.wesleyan.edu could you speak up? i can't hear you.... "my sole intention was learning to fly." 
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 my last response in this thread fell into a bit-bucket and vanished (though appearing locally). i'll repost it, since i always feel slighted when someone appears to ignore one of my postings in a conversational thread, i don't want rob to think i'm doing so. since this is now dated, however, don't feel compelled to respond... i was making two separate points, both of which attack "face value" bible interpretation: (1) to judge the bible's value today, you judge it based on the way it is used today. that is, what do commentators actually say, what do rabbis teach, etc. i suspect you meant this in context of the jewish tradition you have been referring to; one problem with a highly-interpreted tradition like this is what happens when a schism occurs, and over time certain large and influential branches of the heretical group come to favor exactly a "face value" interpretation... (2) to judge the bible's value when originally written, you (a) read it in the context of its time (not with today's assumptions), and (b) compare it to the practices of surrounding people. while the context of the time is important, value judgments must ultimately be according to current understanding, or at least to some base standard (relative stability/success of a society, e.g.). this is obviously true in comparing it to practices of surrounding people, for instance: according to the bible, the surrounding people were immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits. we need to look rather at what those peoples were *really* like. for instance, in what way is it better to worship a single god whose presence is symbolically strongest in a tent or temple over multiple gods some of whose presence is symbolically represented in a statue? by the bible's own terms idolatry is inherently evil, but i see no evidence that the followers of the various other religions of the area and time were particularly bad people, relative to the people in the bible. [...scissors and cloth...] now in the past, our ancestors did cut cloth with scissors, but they at least knew that their inhumane neighbors cut it with their bare teeth, so this was a relatively enlightened step forward from their earlier barbarism, and made the transition to modern civilized paper-cutting that much easier." sounds good, but it presupposes teeth-rending neighbors, which i see no support for. one can argue that post-facto assertion of inhumane neighbors can be used to make moral points, but that doesn't mean that the actual neighbors really were inhuman. more to the point, such dehumanization of the people across the river or over the mountain, or even of a different people dwelling among us, is all too common. |> that complex |> and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic |> interpretations of that history is interesting, but i still don't |> think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it |> to attack condemnation of the original history. note that i'm speaking of historical interpretation here, for instance claiming that hammurabi's "an eye for an eye" was primitive brutal retribution, while moses' version was an enlightened benign fine (because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way). as of 3000 years ago or so, they probably both meant the same thing. to be sure, i'm arguing from a parochial perspective. i belong to this tiny tribe which has struggled against overwhelming odds for survival as a distinct tribe, and this book is the book of my tribe. the book commands us to dedicate ourselves to study, to improve the world, and to set an example as "a light to the nations". we've revered the book, and i think we've been successful: as scientists, as artists and musicians, as leaders in important humanitarian causes. it's hard for me to separate the success of my people from the virtue of our book. you'd have to argue that we'd have done significantly better with a different book or with no book, or that another tribe with a different book or with no book has done significantly better. i don't belittle the accomplishments, particularly the intellectual ones, of the jewish people. i have given up on trying to think by analogy, since i don't know of any other 'tribe' that is at all similar (the closest i can think of are the romany, but i don't know enough about them to make a meaningful comparison). i think a tradition of reflective study, of flexible rather than dogmatic interpretation, is a good thing. i think that with such an attitude a case could be made that you could have done as well starting with a 1943 captain america comic (or whatever the babylonian equivalent would have been). jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 this response originally fell into a bit bucket. i'm reposting it just so bill doesn't think i'm ignoring him. [some stuff about biblical morality, though bill's quote of me had little to do with what he goes on to say] i'm sorry to have been busy lately and only just be getting around to apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism; i think many of these are well addressed in the famous faq. your generalisms are then misplaced -- atheism needn't imply materialism, or the lack of an absolute moral system. however, i do tend to materialism and don't believe in absolute morality, so i'll answer your questions. how then can an atheist judge value? an atheist judges value in the same way that a theist does: according to a personal understanding of morality. that i don't believe in an absolute one doesn't mean that i don't have one. i'm just explicit, as in the line of postings you followed up, that when i express judgment on a moral issue i am basing my judgment on my own code rather than claiming that it is in some absolute sense good or bad. my moral code is not particular different from that of others around me, be they christians, muslims, or atheists. so when i say that i object to genocide, i'm not expressing anything particularly out of line with what my society holds. if your were to ask why i think morality exists and has the form it does, my answer would be mechanistic to your taste -- that a moral code is a prerequisite for a functioning society, and that humanity probably evolved morality as we know it as part of the evolution of our ability to exist in large societies, thereby achieving considerable survival advantages. you'd probably say that god just made the rules. neither of us can convince the other, but we share a common understanding about many moral issues. you think you get it from your religion, i think i get it (and you get it) from early childhood teaching. that you don't like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. i think you've been reading the wrong sort of comic books, but in prying through the gobbledygook i basically agree with what you're saying. i do believe that my mental reactions to stimuli such as "god commanded the genocide of the canaanites" is mechanistic, but of course i think that's true of you as well. my reaction has little to do with whether god exists or even with whether i think he does, but if a god existed who commanded genocide, i could not consider him good, which is supposedly an attribute of god. all of this being so, you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil, etc. and cannot participate. your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever. hmm. yes, i think some heavy faq-reading would do you some good. i have as much place discussing values etc. as any other person. in fact, i can actually accomplish something in such a discussion, by framing the questions in terms of reason: for instance, it is clear that in an environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt to wipe each other out based on imagined divine commands, then the quality of life will be generally poor, so a system that fosters coexistence is superior, if quality of life is an agreed goal. an absolutist, on the other hand, can only thump those portions of a bible they happen to agree with, and say "this is good", even if the act in question is unequivocally bad by the standards of everyone in the discussion. the attempt to define someone or a group of people as "excluded from discussion", such that they "cannot participate", and their opinions given "no weight whatsoever" is the lowest form or reasoning (ad hominem/poisoning the well), and presumably the resort of someone who can't rationally defend their own ideas of right, wrong, and the bible. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 i think you've missed the point. take "alt.atheism" for instance. it's an exponent-based anagram. when fully extended, it translates to: dig tunnels deep! store grain everywhere! prepare for the coming struggle! you'll no doubt recognize this as a quote from chairman mao. thus, i think you'll have to admit that atheists have a lot more up their sleeve than you might have suspected. agnostics will be sent to the gulag under the mao-atheist new order. now where did i put my little red book? or was that green? if god is dead and the actor plays his part | -- sting, his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse | nothing 
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 from a parallel thread. much about definitions of bombs, etc. deleted. aaaahhh. tell me, how many innocents were killed in concentration camps? mm-hmm. now, how many more were scheduled to enter concentration camps had they not been shut down because they were captured by the allies? mm-hmm. now, civilians died in that war. so no matter what you do, civilians die. what is the proper course? don't sell the bastard arms and information in the first place. ruthlessly hunt down those who do. especially if they're in positions of power. mathew, i agree. this, it seems, is the crux of your whole position, isn't it? that the us shouldn't have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran? i agree. and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do. but we *did* sell arms to hussein, and it's a done deal. now he invades kuwait. so do we just sit back and say, "well, we sold him all those arms, i suppose he just wants to use them now. too bad for kuwait." no, unfortunately, sitting back and "letting things be" is not the way to correct a former mistake. destroying hussein's military potential as we did was the right move. but i agree with your statement, reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein. so it's really not the gulf war you abhor so much, it was the u.s.'s and the west's shortsightedness in selling arms to hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable, right? if so, then i agree. [more deleted.] jim b. 
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 maddi hausmann chirps: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (bake timmons) writes: > first of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy. why not try to be more >honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest, it just ended like that, i swear! that's nice. hmmmm...i recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr you forgot the third equality...whirrr...click...whirrr...see below... whirr click whirr...frank o'dwyer might also be contained in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr "killfile" keith allen schneider = frank "closet theist" o'dwyer = ... = maddi "the mad sound-o-geek" hausmann ...whirrr...click...whirrr bake timmons, iii -- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory..." -- alyosha in brothers karamazov (dostoevsky) 
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 perhaps it's prophetic that the week "where are they now?" appears and i can claim to be a still-active old-timer, my news software gets bit rot and ships outgoing articles into a deep hole somewhere... anyway, here's a repost: which brings me to the point of my posting. how many people out there have been around alt.atheism since 1990? i've done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup, but when you fall behind, you really fall behind [...] these days you don't have to fall far behind... last monday (admittedly after a long weekend, but...) i had 800+ messages just in those few days. aside from a hiatus while changing jobs last fall i've been here since 1990. has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge? inquiring minds want to know! also-- does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt.atheism end up, once they leave the newsgroup? just curious, i guess. hell, norway? the rubber room at the funny farm? seminary? it is not given to us to know... jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 did that faq ever got modified to re-define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god, but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god? there was a thread on this earlier, but i didn't get the outcome... -- adam "no nickname" cooper * adam john cooper "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings * * (612) 696-7521 who thought themselves good simply because * * acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." * 
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 in light of what happened in waco, i need to get something of my sadly understandable... faith and dogma are dangerous. religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma, and for that reason, i scorn religion. to be fair, you should really qualify this as semitic-western religions, but you basically go ahead and do this later on anyway. i have expressed this notion in the past. some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning. i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma. again, this should really be evaluated at a personal level. for example, there was only one jesus (presumably), and he probably didn't say all that many things, and yet (seemingly) billions and billions of christian sects have arisen. perhaps there is one that is totally dedicated to rationalism and believes in christ as in pantheism. it would seem to go against the bible, but it is amazing what people come up with under the guise of "personal interpretation". a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind, whereas a christian cannot, due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion. this is a good point. we have here the quintessential christian: he sets up a system of values/beliefs for himself, which work very well, and every event/experience is understandable and deablable within the framework of this system. however, we also have an individual who has the inability (at least not without some difficulty) to change, which is important, because the problem with such a system is the same as with any system: one cannot be open minded to the point of "testing hypotheses" against the basic premise of the system without destroying whatever faith is invested therein, unless of course, all the tests fail. in other words, the *fairer* way would be to test and evaluate moralities without the bias/responsibility of losing/retaining a system. i claimed that a ``christian philosopher'' is not a christian, but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity. consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner, unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison. can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison? can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs? no, because if a person is free to go, he is not a prisoner. similarly, if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma, he is not a christian. interesting, but again, when it seems to basically boil down to individual nuances (although not always, i will admit, and probably it is the mass-oriented divisions which are the most appalling), it becomes irrelevant, i admit it's a word game. i'm going by the dictionary definition of religion: ``religion n. 1. concern over what exists beyond the visible world, differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reason, ...'' --webster's now let's go beyond the word game. i don't claim that religion causes genocide. i think that if all humans were atheist, there would still be genocide. there will always be humans who don't think. there will always be humans who don't ask themselves what is the real difference between themselves and people with different colored skin, or a different language, or different beliefs. religion is like the gun that doesn't kill anybody. religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn't directly condemn people, it encourages the use of ``just because'' thinking. it is ``just because'' thinking that kills people. in which case the people become the bullets, and the religion, as the gun, merely offers them a way to more adequately do some harm with themselves, if i may be so bold as to extend your similie? sure, religion has many good qualities. it encourages benevolence and philanthropy. ok, so take out only the bad things: like faith, dogma, and tradition. put in the good things, like careful reasoning, and science. the result is secular humanism. wouldn't it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist? to please the supernaturalists, you might even leave god in there, but the secular emphasis would cause the supernaturalists to start thinking, and they too would realize that a belief in a god really doesn't put anyone further ahead in understanding the universe (ok, i'm just poking fun at the supernaturalists :-). also understandable... ;) of course, not all humans are capable of thought, and we'd still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide...but not as much. i'm willing to bet on that. todd kelley tgk@cs.toronto.edu department of computer science university of toronto best regards, * adam john cooper "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings * * (612) 696-7521 who thought themselves good simply because * * acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." * 
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 i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view _as i've articulated it above_ (which may not be the true view of khomeini) is from the basic principles of islam. from the point ov view of an atheist, i see you claim khomeini wasn't practicing true islam. but i'm sure that he would have said the same about you. how am i, a member of neither group, supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim? this is a very good point. i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur'an and have given my arguments for this. this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested. khomeini, being dead, really can't respond, but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry. this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism. so, to answer your question, the only way you can judge is by learning more about islam, that is by reading the qur'an and understanding it's basic principles. once one has done this it is relatively easy to see who is following the principles of islam and who is acting in a way at odds with islam. khomeini by attributing a superhuman status to twelve muslim historical leaders is at variance with one of basic principles of islam, which is that no human being is metaphysically different than any other human being and in no sense any closer to god in metaphysical 
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 this supports nothing. i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti-islamic slander job. i have no respect for titles, only for real content. i can look up this article if i want, true. but i can tell you bcci was _not_ an islamic bank. seeing as i'm spending my time responding to propaganda (in responding to this little sub-thread) i really don't feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false. if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i'd be glad to have a real discussion, providing references, etc. but you must admit that this is a more thorough argument supporting a proposition than your 'it's propganda because i say so'. i hope you can see why we might not find this argument compelling. if you want to refute a point, then do so, but do it well, again, i am doing as much as the poster i was replying too. i am quite busy and really don't have the time to respond in full scholarly form to every accusation that is flippantly made by someone who's being clearly antagonistic. and have you ever considered that perhaps these people actually believe what they say? that they are not just spreading i have considered it. but if someone spreads falsehoods out of ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods. those falsehoods generally do not come out of nowhere but are produced by people who know that what they are saying is (at _least_) not the whole truth. i still consider such spreading of falsehoods propaganda on some level. i'm not in a position to say, since i know nothing about the situation. that does not, in my estimation, qualify me as having my head up my ass. bob, i never accused you of having your head up your ass! it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass. i was accusing the original poster (benedikt, i believe) of being so impaired. 
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 the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr. maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse (or anywhere in the qur'an). there is no notion of heliocentric, or even galacticentric either. "my sole intention was learning to fly." 
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 merely a question for the basis of morality moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. 1)who is society 2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? 3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? wow! you got me thinking now! this is an interesting question in that recently there has been a move in society to classify previously "socially unacceptable" yet legal activities as ok. in the past it seems to me there were always two coexisting methods of social control. first (and most explicit) is legal control. that is the set of actions we define as currently illegal and having a specifically defined set of punishments. secondly (and somewhat more hidden) is social control. these are the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered by legal control, are scrictly controled by social censure. ideally (if socialization is working as it should) legal control is hardly ever needed since most people voluntarilly control their actions due to the pressure of social censure. the control manifests itself in day-to-day life as "guilt" and "morality". i've heard it said (and fully believe) that if it weren't for the vast majority of people policing themselves, legal control would be absolutely impossible. lately (last 50, 100 years?) however there has been a move to attempt to dissengage the individual from societal control (ie. if it ain't illegal, then don't pick on me). i'm not saying this is wrong, merely that it is a byproduct of a society which has: 1) a high education level, 2) a high exposure to alternative ideas via the popular media, 3) a high level of institutionalized individual rights, and 4) a "me" oriented culture. i guess what i'm saying is that we appear to be in a state of transition, here in the western world in that we still have many ideas about what we can\ can't allow people to do based entirely on personal squeamishness, yet we are fully bent on maximizing individual freedoms to the max as long as those freedoms don't impinge on another's. imho society is trying to persue two mutually exclusive ends here. while we appreciate and persue individual rights (these satisfy the old territoriality and dominance instincts), the removal of socialized, inherent fears based on ignorance will result in the continued destabilization of society. i got no quick fix. i have no idea how we can get ourselves out of this mess. i know i would never consent to the roll-back of personal freedoms in order to "stabilize" society. yet i believe development of societies follow a darwinian process which selects for stability. can we find a social model which maximizes indiv. freed.'s yet is stable? perhaps it is possible to live with a "non-stable" society? anybody see a way out? comments? ps. therefore answer to question #3: we don't. do we want to? phil trodwell *** this space ***| "i'd be happy to ram a goddam 440-volt cattle *** for rent. ***| prod into that tub with you right now, but not *** (cheap) ***| this radio!" -hunter s. thompson 
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 anyway, since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion, i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book? what are your thoughts on it? i read it. i found it wonderful. for some reason (no flames, please), i was reminded of hemingway, carl orff and van gogh (not all at once, though). geoff arnold, pc-nfs architect, sun select. (geoff.arnold@east.sun.com) "what if they made the whole thing up? | "the great lie" by four guys, two thousand years ago, over wine..." | the tear garden 
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 [reply to kmr4@po.cwru.edu (keith m. ryan)] our lord and savior david keresh has risen! he has been seen alive! spread the word! jeez, can't he get anything straight. i told him to wait for three david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists. this is a lot higher than among the general population. i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are? is it because they are more intelligent? younger? is this the wave of the future? david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 [reply to timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (bake timmons] ...the same kind of ignorance is demonstrated in just about every post in this newsgroup. for instance, generalizations about christianity are popular. which newsgroup have you been reading? the few anti-christian posts are virtually all in response to some christian posting some "you will all burn in hell" kind of drivel. i'm a soft atheist (courtesy of the faq), but even i know enough about the bible to see that it repeatedly warns of false prophets preaching in the name of god. bake, it is transparently obvious that you are a theist pretending to be an atheist. you probably think you are very clever, but we see this all the time. but the possibilities of creator and eternity carry with them too much emotional power to dismiss merely on the basis of this line. but of course *you* have dismissed them because you are an atheist, ...just like any other religion, hard atheism is a faith. in other words, you *didn't* read the faq after all. david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 [reply to jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (james hogan)] so, what's someone with a prediliction to shit-shoveling to do when the latest "i know what you atheists are about" arrival on a.a. shows up? ignore the bills, bobbys, bakes? try to engage in reasonable discourse? while flame-fests have been among some of the most entertaining threads here, other tugs-of-war with folks like bobby have grown old before their time. i take the view that they are here for our entertainment. when they are no longer entertaining, into the kill file they go. david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 date: tue, 20 apr 1993 10:48:19 +0100 from: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> there's a great film called "manufacturing consent: noam chomsky and the media". it's a canadian film; i saw it at the berlin film festival this year. if you get a chance, go and see it. i can't really recommend any books from having read them... i'm thinking of ordering a book which a reviewer claimed gives a good introduction to his political activism. i could dig up the title. could it be _the chomsky reader_ edited by james peck, published by pantheon? 
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 date: 20 apr 93 05:23:15 gmt from: bake timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu> remember, koresh "dried" for your sins. and pass that beef jerky. umm umm. though i wasn't there, at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he's doing. off ! 
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 merely a question for the basis of morality moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. 1)who is society society is the collection of individuals which will fall under self-defined rules. in terms of un decisions all the sets of peoples who are represented at the un are considered part of that society. if we then look at us federal laws provided by representatives of purely us citizens then the society for that case would be the citizens of the us and so on. 2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? "acceptable" are those behaviours which are either legislated for the society by representatives of that society or those behaviours which are non-verbally and, in effect, non-consciously, such as picking your nose on the oprah winfrey show, no-one does it, but there is no explicit law against doing it. in many cases there are is no definition of whether or not a behaviour is "acceptable", but one can deduce these behaviours by 3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? in an increasingly litigation mad society, this trap is becoming exceedingly difficult to avoid. with the infusion and strengthening of ethnic cultures in american (and australian, to bring in my local perspective) culture the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may eventually become the definition of moral behaviour. for instance, some cultures' dominant religion call for live sacrifice of domesticated animals. most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent. however, is it moral, according to the multicultural american society? this kind of problem may only be definable by legislation. obviously within any society there will be differences in opinion in what is acceptable behaviour or not, and much of this will be due to different environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions. one thing is for sure, there is no universal moral code which will suit all cultures in all situations. there may, however, be some globally accepted mores which can be agreed upon and instantiated as a globally enforcable concept. the majority of mores will not be common until all peoples upon this earth are living in a similar environment (if that ever happens). jeff 'nonickname' clark. 
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 you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be prepared for your eternal damnation!!! arrgg!! *another* one of those?! another letter to the big guy: dear god, please take them back to heaven & leave us rational, intelligent people alone. the unenlightened one tan chade meng | there is light at the end of the tunnel ...... singapore | cmtan@iss.nus.sg | it's an on-coming train. i have a better prayer: dear god, please save the world from the likes of these!!! 
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 ->in article <1993apr9.151914.1885@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu ->(mark mccullough) says: ->>in article <monack.733980580@helium> monack@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (david ->>>another issue is that by having to request to not be required to ->>>recite the "so help me god" part of the oath, a theistic jury may be ->>>prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not ->>>at all relevant to the case. ->>>what is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or ->>>affirmation? ->>>dave sorry for using a follow-up to respond, but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news when it couldn't keep up. when the you are asked to swear "so help you god" and you have to say it, ask which one; jesus, allah, vishnu, zues, odin. get them to be specific. don't be obnoxious, just humbly ask, then quitely sit back and watch the fun. james l. felder | sverdrup technology,inc. | phone: 216-891-4019 nasa lewis research center | cleveland, ohio 44135 | email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov "some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle" 
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 [deletia wrt pathetic jee-zus posting by bissel] i hope you're not going to flame him. please give him the same coutesy you' ve given me. no. he hasn't extended to us the courtesy you've shown us, so he don't get no pie. tammy, i respect your beliefs because you don't try to stamp them into my being. i have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to 
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 the traditions of the church hold that all the "apostles" (meaning the 11 surviving disciples, matthias, barnabas and paul) were martyred, except for john. "tradition" should be understood to read "early church writings other than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures". c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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 -> first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it ->makes sense to be one. have any of you read tony campollo's book- liar, ->lunatic, or the real thing? (i might be a little off on the title, but he ->writes the book. anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity, ->in the process he became a christian himself. sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy. just what organization did he belong to? does it have a name? -> the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a ->modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. logic alert - artificial trifercation. the are many other possible explainations. could have been that he never existed. there have been some good points made in this group that is not impossible that jc is an amalgam of a number of different myths, mithra comes to mind. -> some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would ->die for a lie? wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people ->gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing ->someone who was or had been healed. call me a fool, but i believe he did ->heal people. logic alert - argument from incredulity. just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn't mean that it isn't true. liars can be very pursuasive, just look at koresh that you yourself site. he has followers that don't think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die. by not giving up after getting shot himself, koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what he believes. as far as healing goes. if i rememer right the healing that was attributed is not consistent between the different gospels. in one of them the healing that is done is not any more that faith healers can pull off today. seems to me that the early gospels weren't that compeling, so the stories got bigger to appeal better. -> niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn ->to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example ->anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see ->this right away. -> therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the ->real thing. or might not have existed, or any number of things. that is the logical pitfall that those who use flawed logic like this fall into. there are bifurcations (or tri, quad, etc) that are valid, because in the proceeding steps, the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are possible. once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are, then arguments among the alternatives can be presentent, and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding all other possible alternatives. however, if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive, then any conclusions bases on the incomplete set are invalid, even if the true choice is one of the original choices. i have given at least one valid alternative, so the conclusion that jc is the real mccoy just because he isn't one of the other two alternative is no longer valid. -> some other things to note. he fulfilled loads of prophecies in ->the psalms, isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. this in his betrayal ->and crucifixion. i don't have my bible with me at this moment, next time i ->write i will use it. jc was a rabbi. he knew what those prophecies were. it wouldn't be any great shakes to make sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy. what would be compeling is if there were a set of clear and explicit prophecies and jc had absolutely no knowledge of then, yet fullfilled them anyway. -> i don't think most people understand what a christian is. it ->is certainly not what i see a lot in churches. rather i think it ->should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for god's ->sake. he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the ->same. hey we can't do it, god himself inspires us to turn our lives ->over to him. that's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a ->real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. but ->just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes ->time. we don't rush it in one day, christianity is your whole life. ->it is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in ->a while. we box everything into time units. such as work at this ->time, sports, tv, social life. god is above these boxes and should be ->carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ->ourselves. here i agree with you. anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says seriously, and what it says is that it must be a total way of life. i have very little respect for xians that don't. if the myth is true, then it is true in its entirity. the picking and choosing that i see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. james l. felder | sverdrup technology,inc. | phone: 216-891-4019 nasa lewis research center | cleveland, ohio 44135 | email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov "some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle" 
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 on fri, 16 apr 1993 02:51:29 gmt, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (tammy r healy) said: trh> i hope you're not going to flame him. please give him the same coutesy you' trh> ve given me. but you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return. this person instead has posted one of the worst arguments i have ever seen made from the pro-christian people. i've known several jesuits who would laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them. let's ignore the fact that it's not a true trilemma for the moment (nice word maddi, original or is it a real word?) and concentrate on the liar, lunatic part. the argument claims that no one would follow a liar, let alone thousands of people. look at l. ron hubbard. now, he was probably not all there, but i think he was mostly a liar and a con-artist. but look at how many thousands of people follow dianetics and scientology. i think the baker's and swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all the time, but look at the number of follower they have. as for lunatics, the best example is hitler. he was obviously insane, his advisors certainly thought so. yet he had a whole country entralled and came close to ruling all of europe. how many germans gave their lives for him? to this day he has his followers. i'm just amazed that people still try to use this argument. it's just so obviously *wrong*. ed mccreary ,__o edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<, "if it were not for laughter, there would be no tao." (*)/'(*) 
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 on 16 apr 93 05:10:18 gmt, bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com (robert beauchaine) said: ever hear of baptism at birth? if that isn't preying on the young, i don't know what is... rb> rb> no, that's praying on the young. preying on the young comes rb> later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb> priest really wears under that chasible. the same thing scotsmen where under there kilt. i'll never forget the day when i was about tweleve and accidently walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware drinking beer and watching football. kind of changed my opinion a bit. they didn't seem so menacing after ed mccreary ,__o edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<, "if it were not for laughter, there would be no tao." (*)/'(*) 
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 ..stuff deleted... which brings me to the point of my posting. how many people out there have been around alt.atheism since 1990? i've done my damnedest to stay on top of ...more stuff deleted... hmm, usenet got it's collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after i switched to engineering. i'd say i started reading alt.atheism around 1988-89. i've probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though. i'll never understand how people can find the time to write so much. i can barely keep up as it is. ed mccreary ,__o edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<, "if it were not for laughter, there would be no tao." (*)/'(*) 
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 [reply to frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer)] i'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next to the word morality. i assume its an idiom and cannot be defined by its separate terms. give it a try. objective morality is morality built from objective values. from a dictionary of philosophy, by anthony flew: "objectivism: the belief that there are certain moral truths that would remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired. for instance, 'no one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another simply to take pleasure in his suffering' might be thought of as a plausible example. even in a world of sadists who all rejected it, the contention remains true, just as '5 + 7 = 12' remains correct even if there is no one left to count. the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established. if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world. nor can they be analytic, since this would involve lack of action-guiding content; 'one ought always to do the right thing' is plainly true in virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to action (see analytic and synthetic). at this point the objectivist may talk of 'self-evident truths', but can he deny the subjectivist's claim that self-evidence is in the mind of the beholder? if not, what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true? the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself. to hold a moral opinion is, he suggests, not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity." david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 what do you base your belief on atheism on? your knowledge and reasoning? couldn't that be wrong? actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. ignorance of the existence of any god. don't fall into the "atheists don't believe because of their pride" mistake. how do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned? also, if i may, what the heck where we talking about and why didn't i keep some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were? bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits. 
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 only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible. since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son. pope john paul 
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 : you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be : prepared for your eternal damnation!!! what do you mean "be prepared" ?? surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough . . . and i'm not even dead yet !! well here's how i prepared. i got one of those big beach umbrellas, some of those gel-pack ice things, a big coleman cooler which i've loaded up with miller draft (so i like miller draft, so sue me), a new pair of new balance sneakers, a sony watchman, and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese i haven't decided what to wear yet. what does one wear to an eternal damnation? dean kaflowitz you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf 45+ sunscreen. i'll grab my bathing suit, towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout!! does that sound good enough to you, dean? every a.a poster is invited!!! tammy "no-trim" healy 
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 actually, it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted us and allied action. if some back-water country took over some other back-water country, we probably wouldn't intervene. not that we don't care, but we can't be the world's policman. or if a coup had occured in kuwait (instead of an invasion), then we still wouldn't have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to saudi arabia. but the combination of the two, an unprovoked invasion by a genocidal tyrant and the potential danger to the west's oil interests, caused us to take action. there are many indications that would have taken place had saddam been wanting or planning on going into saudi arabia. there were none. this has been openly stated by ex-pentagon analysts. pull. i'm not setting up a strawman at all. if you want to argue against the war, then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait. diplomatic alternatives, including sanctions, were ineffective. actually, reports from other mid-east countries showed that hussein was ready to make concessions due to the sanctions. we just didn't want him to - we wanted to crush him, as well as battle-test all these high tech toys we've built over the years. probably because we're not the saviors of the world. we can't police each and every country that decides to self-destruct or invade another. nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet, east timor, or some other places. we're also hypocrites of the first magnitude. obviously, we don't give a shit about freedom and democracy. all we care about is our oil. oh, and the excuse, now that the soviets are gone from the board, to keep a sizable military presence in the gulf region. care to make bets about when all our troops will come home? basically, saddam was ok with us. he was a killer, who tortured his own people, used gas on them, and other horrors - he was a brutal dictator, but he was our brutal dictator. once he said "fuck you" to the us, he became the next hitler. the same for noriega. he was a bastard, but he was our bastard...until he changed his mind and went his own way. then we had to get rid of him. david hunt - graduate slave | my mind is my own. | towards both a mechanical engineering | so are my ideas & opinions. | palestinian and carnegie mellon university | <<<use golden rule v2.0>>> | jewish homeland! ====t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d=========t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d===== email: bluelobster+@cmu.edu working towards my "piled higher and deeper" it will be a great day when scientists and engineers have all the r&d money they need and religions have to beg for money to pay the priest. 
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 in <1qvh8tinnsg6@citation.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (jonathan w merely a question for the basis of morality moral/ethical behavior = _societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_. i disagree with these. what society thinks should be irrelevant. what the individual decides is all that is important. this doesn't seem right. if i want to kill you, i can because that is what i exactly. although this may be a dissapointing answer, there has to be an interplay of the two. personal ethos and societal morality. a person's self-generated/learned set of beliefs are usually expressed on a purely mental/verbal level, and don't usually find expression in society except in an impure (not in the sense of bad :) ) state. sometimes this has to be so. 1)who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really. if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok, there are always some in the "society" who disagree with the mandates, so which societal mandates make the standard for morality? also, what if one feels oneself to be part of more than one society, in a very real sense? to use the obvious example, there is a political society, and a racial society, and a gender society, and sometimes they do not always agree on every issue... 2)how do "they" define what is acceptable? generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy i can think of. so what should be the basis? unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the "feeling", in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong. awfully hard to defend, though. yes. perhaps with an infamous "do what you want so long as it doesn't hurt others?" the problem with this is that it is merely saying what you can do: it is not a morality in that it doesn't propound any specifically preferred 3)how do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position? by thinking for ourselves. i might agree here. just because certain actions are legal does not make them "moral". i'll add a hearty "me two". however, one could just as well say just because certain actions are moral does not make them legal: one still doesn't really get an impression of which one is truly "right". michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu with new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton best regards, * adam john cooper "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings * * (612) 696-7521 who thought themselves good simply because * * acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." * 
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 in <1993apr20.004119.6119@cnsvax.uwec.edu> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (david nye) [reply to cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (mike cobb)] if morals come from what is societally accepted, why follow that? what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality? pardon the extremism, but couldn't i murder your "brother" and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them, was doing what felt good, didn't want anyone forcing their morality on me, or i don't follow your "morality" ? i believe that morality is subjective. each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes. mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses. this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards. while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him, the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority. why? how? might makes right? how can they force their morality on me? why can't i do what i want? who are they to decide? what if i disagree? well i agree with you in the sense that they have no "moral" right to inflict these rules, but there is one thing i might add: at the very least, almost everybody wants to avoid pain, and if that means sacrificing some stuff for a herd morality, then so be it. most criminals do not see their behavior as moral. the may realize that it is immoral and not care. they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral. good point, but it is being immoral in our opinion. we don't let them choose, we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them. right, and since they grew up and learned around us, they have some idea of our right and wrong, which i think must, in part, be incorporated. very rarely do you see criminal behaviour for "philosophical reasons" for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system, he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent. some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense, but have little basis for it as of yet. how far can such a concept be extended? (stuff deleted) do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him. after all, he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose. on what basis do we condemn other societies besides, here's the buzz words, on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer. why not? do we have to be objective suddenly? david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton best regards, --adam * adam john cooper "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings * * (612) 696-7521 who thought themselves good simply because * * acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." * 
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 you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf 45+ sunscreen. i'll grab my bathing suit, towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout!! does that sound good enough to you, dean? every a.a poster is invited!!! is there room for nudists? after all, if you believe most upstanding moral churches, nudity is a sin... "my sole intention was learning to fly." 
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 test-- | adam john cooper | "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings | | (612) 696-7521 | who thought themselves good simply because | | acooper@macalstr.edu | they had no claws." | | "understand one another? i fear i am beyond your comprehension." --gandalf | 
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 the line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed to imply that. sorry, been reading too much on the clipper project lately, and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some. ;) what is the clipper project btw? the clipper initiative is an announcement by clinton that all the "secure" voice phones will use the same crypto chip, as a de-facto government standard. problem is, the government is admitting that they hold the keys to break the code easily, and the justice department will be using the keys to listen in on "illegal activities." many people are really scared about such an initiative because it is a major step towards outlawing real crypto protection on things like email if you read the press release. the project was developed by nsa and given to nist. it uses two keys s1 and s2 that the government claims are needed to break the code. they claim that these keys will be handed to two different companies, and when they get a warrant to do a wiretap (the chip is nicknamed the wiretap chip), they have to get the keys from both companies. people have poked holes through and through the press release official version and shown how it is nowhere near as nice as it sounds, and i have given the simplified version. people over on sci.crypt are really scared about this proposal it seems. * mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu * never program and drink beer at the same * * m^2 * time. it doesn't work. * 
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 date: tue, 20 apr 1993 18:13:09 gmt from: r. bruce rakes <bruce@cortex.dixie.com> i always thought that the pope was a bear. you know, because of that little saying: does a bear shit in the woods? is the pope catholic? there must be some connection between those two lines! and i always heard it: is the bear catholic? does the pope ???? oh nevermind! r. bruce rakes, software systems manager elekta instruments, inc. 8 executive park w, suite 809, atlanta, ga 30329 voice:(404)315-1225 fax:(404)315-7850 email: bruce@elekta.com anyone from alabama knows it should be: is "the bear" catholic? does a pope shit in the woods? the pope may not be a bear, but "the bear" is a god. (paul "bear" bryant, football coach/god, university of alabama.) 
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 in light of what happened in waco, i need to get something of my faith and dogma are dangerous. religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma, and for that reason, i scorn religion. i don't necessarily disagree with your assertion, but i disagree with your reasoning. (faith = bad. dogma = bad. religion -> (faith ^ dogma). religion -> (bad ^ bad). religion -> bad.) unfortunately, you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous. if you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because of what happened in waco, you are missing the point. the branch davidians made the mistake of confusing the message with the messenger. they believed koresh was a prophet, and therefore believed everything he said. the problem wasn't the religion, it was the followers. they didn't die because of faith and dogma, they died because of their zealotry (or, in the case of the children, the zealotry of their parents). i have expressed this notion in the past. some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning. i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma. so christians are totally irrational? irrational with respect to their religion only? what are you saying? one's belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational. i think i know what you were getting at, but i'd rather hear you expand on the subject. a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind, whereas a christian cannot, due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion. again, this statement is too general. a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher, and absolutely capable of changing his/her mind. faith in god is a belief, and all beliefs may change. would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which, of course, may show unfair bias when studying, say, religion? i claimed that a ``christian philosopher'' is not a christian, but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity. consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner, unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison. can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison? can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs? no, because if a person is free to go, he is not a prisoner. similarly, if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma, he is not a christian. so, christianity is a prison, eh? ever heard of parole? you have read far too much into this subject. a christian is one who follows the religion based on the teachings of a man named jesus christ. nowhere does this definition imply that one cannot change one's mind. in prison, however, you can't just decide to leave. one is voluntary, the other is not. the two are not compatible. religion is like the gun that doesn't kill anybody. religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn't directly condemn people, it encourages the use of ``just because'' thinking. it is ``just because'' thinking that kills people. i prefer to think of religion as a water pistol filled with urine. 8^) seriously, though, some (but certainly not all) religions do condemn groups of people. the common target is the "infidel," a curious being who is alternately an atheist, a non-<insert specific religious affiliation here>, a person of a different race, or an egyptian. 8^) please explain how "just because" thinking kills people. (and please state more in your answer than "waco.") of course, not all humans are capable of thought, and we'd still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide...but not as much. i'm willing to bet on that. i'll see your conscientious peacenik and raise you a religious zealot with bad acne. 8^) by the way, i wasn't aware mass suicide was a problem. waco and jonestown were isolated incidents. mass suicides are far from common. --- __ _______ --- ||| kevin marshall \ \/ /_ _/ computer science department ||| ||| virginia tech \ / / / marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu ||| --- blacksburg, virginia \/ /_/ (703) 232-6529 --- 
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 while we're on the topic of books, has anyone else noticed that paine's "the age of reason" is hard to find. i've been wanting to pick up a copy for a while, but not bad enough to mail order it. i've noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it. i thought this was supposed to be classic. what's the deal? me too. our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast, and i couldn't find a copy there. i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 |> #false dichotomy. you claimed the killing were *not* religiously |> #motivated, and i'm saying that's wrong. i'm not saying that |> #each and every killing is religiously motivate, as i spelled out |> #in detail. |> which killings do you say are religously motivated? for example, i would claim that the recent assassination of four catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira was probably religously motivated. |> at the time |> of writing, i think that someone who claims the current violence is |> motivated by religion is reaching. what would you call is when someone writes "the killings in n.i are not religously motivated?" |> now, it's possible to argue that |> religion *in the past* is a major contributing factor to the violence in |> the present, but i don't know of any evidence that this is so - and i'm |> not enough of a historian to debate it. given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland into a country that has a particular church written into its constitution, and which has restriction on civil rights dictated by that church, i fail to see why the word "past" is appropriate. |> #|> #but to claim that "the killings in n.i are not religously |> #|> #motivated." is grotesque. all that means is that the church |> #|> #and believers are doing what they always do with history |> #|> #they can't face: they rewrite it. |> #|> you're attacking a different claim. my claim is that when an ira |> #|> terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s/he does not have as a motive |> #|> the greater glory of god. |> #sorry, frank, but what i put in quotes is your own words from your |> #posting <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>. don't tell us now that |> #it's a different claim. if you can no longer stand behind your |> #original claim, just say so. |> i mean the same thing when i say "the killings in n.i. are not religously |> motivated" as i do when i say when a terrorist plants a bomb s/he |> doesn't have a religious motive. the example is meant to clarify, not |> to be a new claim. the "different claim" to which i refer is the claim |> which you were seemingly attacking in the previous post, namely that religion |> is not a major historical cause of the present violence. i don't assert |> that, nor do i assert its opposite. you don't have to hand us a bunch of double-talk about what i was "seemingly" attacking. i *quoted* what i was attacking. 
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 |> my understanding is that uk blasphemy laws (yes, they exist in the uk, |> although they are little-used) apply only to _anglican_ christianity. |> how does this fit in with your claim that there is no state religion in |> the uk? why don't you ask the approx. two million british muslims who break it five times a day and have never ever been prosecuted under it? then ask how easy it is to hold a christian church service in saudi 
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 anyway, since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion, i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book? what are your thoughts on it? i read it when it first came out, and the controversy broke. put my name on the waiting list at the library (that way if the book was really offensive, none of my money would find its way to the author or publisher), and read it, "cover to cover" (to use a phrase that seems popular here right now). and i *liked* it. the writing style was a little hard to get used to, but it was well worth the effort. coming from a similar background (rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family, and moved to england; i grew up in new delhi), it made a strong impression on me. (and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english: the "yaar" at the end of a sentence, "butbutbut," the occasional hindi phrase, etc.) at the time i still "sorta-kinda" thought of myself as a muslim, and i couldn't see what the flap was all about. it seemed clear to me that this was allegory. it was clear that he described some local prostitutes who took on the names and personae of muhammed's wives, and had not (as my grandfather thundered) implied that muhammed's wives were prostitutes; in short, every angry muslim that had read even part of the book seemed to have missed the point completely. (and i won't mention the fact that the most militant of them had never even seen the book. oops, i just did!) perhaps in a deep sense, the book is insulting to islam, because it exposes the silliness of revealed religion - why does an omnipotent deity need an agent? she can come directly to me, can't she? how do we know that muhammed didn't just go out into the desert and smoke something? and how do we know that the scribes he dictated the quran to didn't screw up, or put in their own little verses? and why can muhammed marry more than four women, when no other muslim is allowed to? (although i think the biggest insult to islam is that the majority of its followers would want to suppress a book, sight unseen, on the say-so of some "holy" guy. not to mention murder the author.) over the years, when i have made this point, various primarily muslim posters have responded, saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called it such things as "filth and lies", "i would rank rushdie's book with hitler's mein kempf or worse", and so on. i had much the same response when i tried to talk about the book. a really silly argument - after all, how many of these same people have read "mein kampf?" it just made me wonder - what are they afraid of? why don't they just read the book and decide for themselves? maybe the reaction of the muslim community to the book, and the absence of protest from the "liberal" muslims to khomeini's fatwa outrage, was the final push i needed into atheism! shamim mohamed / {uunet,noao,cmcl2..}!arizona!shamim / shamim@cs.arizona.edu "take this cross and garlic; here's a mezuzah if he's jewish; a page of the koran if he's a muslim; and if he's a zen buddhist, you're on your own." member of the league for programming freedom - write to lpf@uunet.uu.net 
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 let's say that we drop a marble into the black hole. it races, ever faster, towards the even horizon. but, thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity, as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel. integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of . . infinity. so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole. not true. only an observer at rest at infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time to reach the horizon. in the particle's own reference frame, it takes a very finite time to reach the horizon and the singularity. the math does indeed predict this. take a look at mitchner, thorne, and wheeler's _gravitation_. peter walker don't forget to sing: they say there's a heaven for those who will wait some say it's better, but i say it ain't i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young! 
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 |> >i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci, which |> >ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim |> >community in the uk and elsewhere. |> grow up, childish propagandist. |> >bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank - |> >what will someone bet me they weren't "real" islamic owners and |> >operators? |> an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules |> of islam in regard to banking. this is done explicitly by the |> bank. this was not the case with bcci. so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than would you care to explain why it was that when i said "i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci", you called me a childish 
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 |> >>they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. |> >i realise that this is widely held belief in america, but in fact |> >the clause on cruel and unusual punishments, like a lot of the |> >rest, was lifted from the english bill of rights of 1689. |> just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn't spend |> much time on the wording. in the part of the posting you have so helpfully deleted, i pointed out that they used the wording from the english bill of rights apparently *changing* what they understood by it, and i asked why then should we, two hundred years later, be bound by what keith allan schneider *thinks* they understood by it. |> >>we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. isn't |> >>this sufficient? |> >since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to |> >inflict injury or grief counted as "cruel", sure. |> people can be described as cruel in this way, but punishments cannot. so one cannot say "a cruel fate"? your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing, i think. 
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<answer instance="alt.atheism53415" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> >|> they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. |> >i realise that this is widely held belief in america, but in fact |> >the clause on cruel and unusual punishments, like a lot of the |> >rest, was lifted from the english bill of rights of 1689. |> according to jerry mander's _in the absence of the sacred_ (good |> book, btw), the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy |> also played a significant role as a model for the u.s. constitution. |> furthermore, apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced |> by a study of iroquois society, using it as the prime example of |> a successful, classless, egalitarian, noncoercive society. mander |> goes on to say that both the u.s. and the u.s.s.r. would do well |> to study the original document, figure out where each went wrong, |> and try to get it right next time. that's fascinating. i heard that the chinese, rather than the italians, invented pasta. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53416">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53416" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> >perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour |> >died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such |> >behaviour, entirely by chance. |> that's the entire point! no, that's the point of evolution, not the point of "natural morality". unless, of course, as i have suggested several times already, "natural morality" is just a renaming. |> >are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an |> >organism evolves cooperative behaviour? |> yes! |> natural morality is a morality that developed naturally. but your "yes?" is actually stronger than this. you are agreeing that "every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour" you are going to call it a "natural morality." what about the natural morality of bee dance? bee dance is a naturally developed piece of cooperative behaviour. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53417">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53417" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> >|> well, chimps must have some system. they live in social groups |> >|> as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior. |> >ah, the verb "to must". i was warned about that one back |> >in kindergarten. |> >so, why "must" they have such laws? |> >jon. |> hey, must is a verb in some languages. just happens it is only a modifier |> in english. but, the verb of the sentence is to have. this is modified |> by "must". i know that "must" is a verb in some languages. i'm complaining about the assertion containing the word must. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53421">
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 there lies the hypocrisy, dude. atheism takes as much faith as theism. admit it! besides... not believing in a god means one doesn't have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it! this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free, especially after beaten over the head with it for years! i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it's important. however, trying to force a psychological fantasy (i don't mean that in a bad way, but that's what it really is) on someone else who isn't interested is extremely rude. what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my it should be noted that belief in god is in itself no more a behavoral imperative than lack of belief. it is religion which causes the harm, not the belief in god. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53424">
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 |> yet i am still not a believer. is god not concerned with my |> disposition? why is it beneath him to provide me with the |> evidence i would require to believe? the evidence that my |> personality, given to me by this god, would find compelling? the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. i wouldn't punish him with eternal torture if he didn't love me. but then i;m a decent chap. it seems your god isn't. the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him. he promises to be there for you, but you have to look for yourself. i've looked, and he wasn't. another promise broken. those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort. lying bastard! how do you know what effort i have and have not given? simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". our ability to reason is just a spec of creation. yet some think it is the ultimate. if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now. to learn you must accept that which you don't know. can anyone eaplain what he's just said here? don't forget to sing: they say there's a heaven for those who will wait some say it's better, but i say it ain't i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53425">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53425" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be : prepared for your eternal damnation!!! what do you mean "be prepared" ?? surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough . . . and i'm not even dead yet !! well here's how i prepared. i got one of those big beach umbrellas, some of those gel-pack ice things, a big coleman cooler which i've loaded up with miller draft (so i like miller draft, so sue me), a new pair of new balance sneakers, a sony watchman, and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese i haven't decided what to wear yet. what does one wear to an eternal damnation? dean kaflowitz dress casual. only in heaven is there a dress code (black tie and self-important expression) don't forget to sing: they say there's a heaven for those who will wait some say it's better, but i say it ain't i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53426">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53426" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> >> some here on alt.atheism think that by condemning the actions |> >> of some of those who call themselves muslims, they are condemning |> >> islam. |> >do you read minds, mr rice? you know what posters think now, |> >not just what they write? |> >for myself, i only have what people are posting here to go on, |> >and that's what i am commenting on. |> i think you may have misunderstood me. |> i mean that one does not really criticize _islam_ necessarily by |> bringing khomeini etc. into the argument, for whether he is or is not |> following islam has to be determined by examining his actions against |> islamic teachings. islamic teachings are contained in the qur'an and |> hadiths (reported sayings and doings of the prophet). that's funny, i thought you were making a statement about what people think. in fact, i see it quoted up there. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53428">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53428" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> #and in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical, |> #critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and |> #easily led on the other. |> indeed i may. and one may be an atheist and also be gullible, excitable |> and easily led. |> #i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates |> #that a person is easily led. whether they have a worship or belief |> #in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be |> #beside the point. |> sure. but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing, |> not whether they are easily led. not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible, excitable and easily led from some concrete cause. in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause, rather than atheism, was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53429">
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 marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (kevin marshall) <1r2eba$hsq@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> i don't necessarily disagree with your assertion, but i disagree with your reasoning. (faith = bad. dogma = bad. religion -> (faith ^ dogma). religion -> (bad ^ bad). religion -> bad.) unfortunately, you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous. faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people to act on faith alone, which by its nature is without justification. that is what i mean by the word ``faith'': belief without justification, or belief with arbitrary justification, or with emotional (irrational) for example, when someone says that god exists, that they don't know why they believe god exists, they can just feel it, that's faith. dogma is bad because it precludes positive change in belief based on new information, or increased mental faculty. so christians are totally irrational? irrational with respect to their religion only? what are you saying? one's belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational. i think i know what you were getting at, but i'd rather hear you expand on the subject. faith and dogma are irrational. the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals. i claim that faith and dogma are the quintessential part of any religion. if that makes (the much overused in this context) buddism a philosophy rather than a religion, i can live with that. science is not a religion, because there is no faith nor dogma. a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind, whereas a christian cannot, due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion. again, this statement is too general. a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher, and absolutely capable of changing his/her mind. faith in god is a belief, and all beliefs may change. would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which, of course, may show unfair bias when studying, say, religion? have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists? if a philosopher is not an atheist, s/he tends to be called a theologian. a christian tends to consider christianity sacred. christianity is a special set of beliefs, sanctioned by god himself, and therefore, to conceive of changing those beliefs is to question the existence of that being who makes no mistakes. faith comes into play. dogma comes into play. ``the lord works in mysterious ways'' is an example of faith being used to reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed. sure, interpretations of what ``god said'' are changed to satisfy the needs of society, but when god says something, that's it. it was said, and that's that. since god said it, it is unflawed, even if the interpretations are flawed. science, (as would be practiced by atheists) in contrast, has a built in defence against faith and dogma. a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time, and, *and*, ****and***, a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way. the goal is to keep improving the beliefs. the goal is to keep changing the beliefs to reflect the best information currently available. that's the only rational thing to do. that's good philosophy. can you see the difference? science views beliefs as being flawed, and new information can be obtained to improve them. (how many scientists would claim to have complete and perfect understanding of everything? none---it would put them out of a job!) religion views its beliefs as being perfect, and the interpretations of those beliefs must be changed as new information is acquired which conflicts with them. please explain how "just because" thinking kills people. (and please state more in your answer than "waco.") it's easier for someone to kill a person when s/he doesn't require a good rational justification of the killing. i don't consider ``he's jewish'', or ``he was born of jewish parents'', or ``this document says he's jewish'' to be good rational justification. by the way, i wasn't aware mass suicide was a problem. waco and jonestown were isolated incidents. mass suicides are far from common. clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this. it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53430">
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 in <1r1mr8$eov@aurora.engr.latech.edu> ray@engr.latech.edu (bill ray) faith and dogma are inevitable. christians merely understand and admit to the fact. give me your proof that no god exists, or that he does. whichever position you take, you are forced to do it on faith. it does no good to say you take no position, for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist. consider special relativity. it hasn't be proved, nor has it been disproved. no one has a proof one way or the other, but many people are interested in it! i've satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the existence of god one way or the other. the two possibilities are supernaturalism and naturalism. of course no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with supernaturalism, but similarly, no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with naturalism. in naturalism, any phenomenon that could be described as god is considered part of the natural world, to be studied as any other natural phenomenon (gravity, for instance). for example, if a loud ``godlike'' voice vociferously announced, ``i am god, i exist, and i will prove it by reversing the force of gravity,'' and if then gravity did indeed reverse, a naturalist (probably a scientist) would say, ``boy, we sure didn't understand gravity as well as we thought we did, and that loud voice is something new. perhaps we didn't understand thunder as well as we thought we did either.'' i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning, but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don't like, or find uncomfortable. hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned. hatred, murder, gossip; all these are condemned. is there god-ordained murder in the bible? you bet, and if god ever orders me to kill you, i will. but i will first use the gideon-like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit, and will probably discuss it in an abram-like fashion. i'm sure glad you don't know where i live, since you don't seem to realize it is impossible for you to distinguish between voices in your head, and god's voice. i can hear you now, this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior. delusional religious cults bear the same relationship to christianity that rape bears to consentual sex: form but no substance. when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people. or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non-christian with you? you seem to have missed my point. even if jim jones and david koresh were not religious people, my point remains that faith and dogma are dangerous, and religion encourages them. jim jones and david koresh also encouraged them. my point does not rely on jim jones and david koresh being religious. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53431">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53431" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : faith and dogma are dangerous. faith and dogma are inevitable. christians merely understand and admit to the fact. give me your proof that no god exists, or that he does. whichever position you take, you are forced to do it on faith. it does no good to say you take no position, for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist. absolutely not true. without religion - either an established one or one you invent for yourself - the theist and atheist are equally (not) interested in god, because without religious revelation there is _no_ information about god available. strip away the dogma and the theists/atheists are no different, simply holding a different opinion on a matter of little practical importance. i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning, but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don't like, or find uncomfortable. hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned. hatred, murder, gossip; all these are condemned. is there god-ordained murder in the bible? you bet, and if god ever orders me to kill you, i will. but i will first use the gideon-like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit, and will probably discuss it in an abram-like fashion. sorry, but that doesn't help. what test will you apply to decide whether it is god or satan with whom you are speaking? how will you know that you have not simply gone insane, or having delusions? you are like a loaded gun. i can hear you now, this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior. delusional religious cults bear the same relationship ah, you not as stupid as i assumed. :-) when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people. or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non-christian with you? yes. we're all in this together - each human making up a small part of the definition of humanity. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53434">
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 : when the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers : act in a certain way and we observe that they don't, we have a contradiction. : something defined contradictorily cannot exist. that what the believe in does : not exist. secondly, there are better explanations for why they believe than : the existence of the object of their belief. : have you read the faq already? : benedikt i can't recall anyone claiming that god -makes- anyone act a particlar way, i think that you're attempting to manufacture a contradiction. god is said to require certain behavior, but the only compulsion is the believer's sense of duty. a standard of conduct does exist, but we are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever ways we find convenient, but our response to god's edicts can in no way be used to question god's existence. the behavior of believers is a completely separate question from that of god's existence; there is nothing contradictory here. to say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist, is really asking too much; you would have existence depend on grammar. all you can really say is that something is poorly defined, but that in itself is insufficient to decide anything (other than confusion of course). your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief than the object of belief may lead to a rat's nest of unnecessary complexity. i think i know what you're implying, but i'd like to see your version of this better alternative just the same. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53435">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53435" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : regardless of people's hidden motivations, the stated reasons for many : wars include religion. of course you can always claim that the real : reason was economics, politics, ethnic strife, or whatever. but the : fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer : the heathens. : if you want to say, for instance, that economics was the chief cause : of the crusades, you could certainly make that point. but someone : could come along and demonstrate that it was really something else, in : the same manner you show that it was really not religion. you could : in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the crusades. i don't have to make outrageous claims about religion's affecting and effecting history, for the purpsoe of a.a, all i have to do point out that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate atheism. at no time have i made any statement that religion was the sole cause of anything, what i have done is point out that those who do make that kind of claim are mistaken, usually deliberately. to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature, the function of religion and of course, history. i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they're doing, and do it only for affect. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53436">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53436" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : logic alert - argument from incredulity. just because it is hard for you : to believe this doesn't mean that it isn't true. liars can be very pursuasive : just look at koresh that you yourself cite. this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things. in the words of st. madalyn murrey-o'hair, "face it folks, it's just silly ...". why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it's a fallacy? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53440">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53440" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (the one and only) writes: > : >we could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like bobby or : >bill. : your wish is my command. : bill "shit-stirrer" connor : bobby "circular" mozumder i'm not sure my new nom d'net is exactly appropriate, but it comes very close. considering what i have to wade through before i make one of my insightful, dead-on-the-money repsonses, i have to agree that something's getting stirred up. i would like to believe my characterization of what i respond to would be kinder though, but if you insist ... i am also surprised to find that i have offended anyone, but in some cases it's unavoidable if i am to say anything at all. for those to whom fairness is important, check out my contributions, haven't i been most generous and patient, a veritable paragon of gentility? oh, btw, i don't mind being paired with bobby; i admire his tenacity. how many of you would do as well in this hostile environment - you think -i'm- offensive ?! read your own posts ... love and kisses, p.s. my name is conner, not connor. no point in humiliating the innocents. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53441">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53441" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : nice cop out bill. i'm sure you're right, but i have no idea to what you refer. would you mind explaining how i copped out? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53442">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53442" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 this is fascinating. atheists argue for abortion, defend homosexuality as a means of population control, insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment. according to benedikt, if something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in this case means atheists i suppose. i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital punishment, i'm sorry but the logic escapes me. and why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the propriety of killing or of punishment? what is the basis of the 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53445">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53445" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (bake timmons) writes: > ok, you have disproved one thing, but you failed to "nail" me. see, nowhere in my post did i claim that something _must_ be believed in. here are the three possibilities: 1) god exists. 2) god does not exist. 3) i don't know. my attack was on strong atheism, (2). since i am (3), i guess by what you said below that makes me a weak atheist. [snip] first of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy. why not try to be more honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest, it just ended like that, i swear! hmmmm...i recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr "clam" bake timmons = bill "shit stirrer connor" q.e.d. whirr click whirr...frank o'dwyer might also be contained in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr "killfile" keith allen schneider = frank "closet theist" o'dwyer = the mind reels. maybe they're all bobby mozumder. maddi hausmann madhaus@netcom.com centigram communications corp san jose california 408/428-3553 kids, please don't try this at home. remember, i post professionally. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53447">
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 while we're on the topic of books, has anyone else noticed that paine's "the age of reason" is hard to find. i've been wanting to pick up a copy for a while, but not bad enough to mail order it. i've noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it. i thought this was supposed to be classic. what's the deal? me too. our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast, and i couldn't find a copy there. i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists. if i remember correctly prometheus books have this one in stock, so just call them and ask for the book. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53456">
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 |> according to jerry mander's _in the absence of the sacred_ (good |> book, btw), the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy |> also played a significant role as a model for the u.s. constitution. |> furthermore, apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced |> by a study of iroquois society, using it as the prime example of |> a successful, classless, egalitarian, noncoercive society. mander |> goes on to say that both the u.s. and the u.s.s.r. would do well |> to study the original document, figure out where each went wrong, |> and try to get it right next time. that's fascinating. i heard that the chinese, rather than the italians, invented pasta. that's fascinating. i take it that you're expressing skepticism at the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced the constitution of the people who stole their continent. you could be right, but it sounds plausible to me. is there any reason that you dismiss it out-of-hand? here's some more: recent scholarship has shown that in the mid-1700s indians were not only invited to participate in the deliberations of our "founding fathers," but that the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy arguably became the single most important model for the 1754 albany plan of union, and later the articles of confederation and the constitution. that this would be absent from our school texts, and from history, and from media is not surprising given the devotion americans feel to our founding myth: great men gathered to express a new vision that has withstood the test of time. if it were revealed that indians had a role in it, imagine the blow to the american psyche. by 1754, when most of these men and others gathered to creat the albany plan of union, the first try at confederation, they invited forty-two members of the iroquois grand council to serve as advisors on confederate structures. benjamin franklin freely acknowledged his interest in the iroquois achievement in a famous speech at albany congress: "it would be a strange thing...if six nations of ignorant savages[sic] should be capable of forming such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner that it has subsisted for ages and appears indissoluble, and yet that a like union should be impractical for ten or a dozen english colonies." according to grinde, franklin convened meetings of iroquois chiefs and congressional delegates in order to "hammer out a plan that he acknowedged to be similar to the iroquois confederacy." grinde is professor donald grinde,jr., of the university of california at riverside whose book _the iroquois and the founding fathers of the american nation_ addresses this issue. doug graham dgraham@bnr.ca my opinions are my own. 
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 date: tue, 20 apr 93 21:12:55 gmt from: carolyn jean fairman <cfairman@leland.stanford.edu> agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (andres grino brandt) asks about mormons. there are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later discovered by archeologist? one of the more amusing things in the bom is a claim that a civilization existed in north america, aroun where the mystical plates were found. not only did it use steel and other metals, but it had lots of wars (very ot). no one has ever found any metal swords or and traces of a civilization other than the native americans. this is just one example. from _free inquiry_, winter 83/84, the following is an introduction to the article "joseph smith and the book of mormon", by george d. smith. the introduction is written by paul kurtz. mormonism -- the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints -- claims a worldwide membership 5.2 million. it is one of the world's fastest growing religions, with as many as 200,000 new converst in 1982 alone. because of the church's aggressive missionary program, covering more than one hundred countries, it is spreading even to third world mormonism is both puritanical in moral outlook and evangelical in preachment. the church is run along strict authoritarian lines. led by a president, who allegedly receives revelations directly form god, and a group of twelve apostles who attempt to maintain orthodoxy in belief and practice, the church is opposed to abortion, pornography, sexual freedom, women's rights, and other, in its view, immoral influences of secular society, and it forbids the use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea. centered in salt lake city, the church is extremely wealthy and politically powerful in utal and many other western states. among well-know present-day mormons are ezra taft benson (former secretary of agriculture), the osmond family, the mariotts of the hotel empire, and a score of high-placed government officials. the mormon church was founded in western new york in 1830 by joseph smith who claimed that by divine revelation be had found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried on a hill and that with the help of visits from the angel moroni he had been able to translate the writing into the _book of mormon_, the basis of mormon belief. this book, written "by the commandment of god," claims that the ancient hebrews settled in america about 600 b.c.e. and were the ancestors of the american indians. mormons believe that those who have been baptized in the "true church" will be reunited after death and that deceased non-mormon family members can be baptized by proxy and thus join their relatives in the hereafter. because of these beliefs, mormons have been considered outcasts by mainline christian denominations and as heretics by religious fundamentalists. joseph smith was a controversial figure in his day -- he was both worshiped as a saint and denounced as a fraud. because of persecution he led his band of loyal followers from palmyra, new york, westward to ohio and then to illinois, where in 1844 he was shot to death by an agry mob. brigham young, who reportedly had as many as eighty wives, took over the leadership of the church and led the mormons further westward, to found the new zion in salt lake city. following the teachings of joseph smith in the practice of polygamy was perhaps the mormons most controversial practice in nineteenth-century america. while other religions go back many centuries -- muhammadanism, 1200 years; christianity, 2000; and judaism, 3000 -- and attempts to examine their beginnings are difficult, extensive historical investigation of mormon roots is possible. some mormons are willing to examine this history objectively, bu others maintain that such scrutiny is dangerous to the faith. in the following pages, _free inquiry_ presents two articles about the mormon church. first, george d. smith, a lifelong member of the church, provides a detailed critical examination of joseph smith and his claim the the _book of mormon_ was divinely revealed. second, we present a portion of an interview with philosopher sterling mcmurrin, also a mormon since birth, who questions the treatment of the history of the church by mormon authorities. -- paul kurtz the article itself is super. /666; ', ////; _~ - (/@/----0-~-0 ;;|\..(( -c---->> jimtims p00168@psilink.com ;;| >- `.__),;; 
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 (excess stuff deleted...) however, it seems that a local church elder has been getting revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level the area on may 3rd. he has independent corroboration from several friends, who apparently have had similar revelations. the 5.7 quake was, in fact, in response to a request from the lot of them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions. none of this would be terribly interesting, except for the amount of stir it has created in the area. many, many people are taking these claims very seriously. there are some making plans to be out of the are on the target date. my local religious radio station devoted 4 hours of discussion on the topic. i even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the host that he would have a full account of my conversion on may 4th, provided my family and i survived the devastation and ruin that will invariably follow the quake. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. i know of a similar incident about 3 years ago. a climatologist( ithink that was his profession) named iben browning predicted that an earthquake would hit the new madrid fault on dec.3. some schools in missouri that were on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day. many people evacuated new madrid and other towns in teh are. i wouldn't be suprised if there were more journalists in the area than residents. of course, teh earthquake never occured. how do i know about his? i used to live in southern illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the fault line. no we still had school... we laughed at the poor idiots who believed the prediction. :):):):) bob, if you're wanting an excuse to convert to christianity, you gonna have to look elsewhere. tammy "no trim" healy 
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 hi! i don't know much about mormons, and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon. i don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven, but haven't read the book of mormon by myself (i have to much work learning biblical hebrew), i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on. for example: there is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers? there are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later discovered by archeologist? yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla 14801 - santiago 21 agrino@enkidu.mic.cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta i don't think the book of mormon was supposedly translated from biblical hebrew. i've read that "prophet joseph smith" traslated the gold tablets from some sort of egyptian-ish language. former mormons, please post. tammy "no trim" healy 
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 dps@nasa.kodak.com pontificated: simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". can you cite an example of this. please post an answer as i don't want to receive e-mail. /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "at all times and in all nations, | | the priest has been hostile to liberty." | | <thomas jefferson> | 
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 kmr4@po.cwru.edu (keith m. ryan) pontificated: q: how many moslem men does it take to rape a woman? a: five, one to commit the act, and four to witness the penetration. "a guilty verdict can be rendered only if there is a confession or if there are at least two male witnesses to the crime. adultery and rape are proved only if four witnesses have seen the actual penetration, an occurrence that presumably does not happen often." is this from the quran (or however it's spelled)? /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "at all times and in all nations, | | the priest has been hostile to liberty." | | <thomas jefferson> | 
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 fred, the problem with such reasoning is that for us non-believers we need a better measurement tool to state that person a is a real muslim/christian, while person b is not. as i know there are no such tools, and anyone could believe in a religion, misuse its power and otherwise make bad pr. it clearly shows the sore points with religion -- in other words show me a movement that can't spin off khomeinis, stalins, davidians, husseins... *). i don't think such a system exists. i think the reason for that is an condition known as "free will". we humans have got it. anybody, using their free-will, can tell lies and half-truths about *any* system and thus abuse it for their own ends. i don't think such tools exist either. in addition, there's no such thing as objective information. all together, it looks like religion and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose. this all reminds me of descartes' whispering deamon. you can't trust anything. so why bother. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 as for your question of moral free-agency, given the christian position above, the freedom we have is to acknowledge god. the morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that freedom. you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases. that an atheist can't accept the evidence means only that he prefers not to accept it, it says nothing about the evidence i agree, i had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings. i preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided the truth itself. life is hard. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view _as i've articulated it above_ (which may not be the true view of khomeini) is from the basic principles of islam. from the point ov view of an atheist, i see you claim khomeini wasn't practicing true islam. but i'm sure that he would have said the same about you. how am i, a member of neither group, supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim? fred rice answered this already in an early posting: "the problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_ believer and who may be "faking it". this is something known only by the person him/herself (and god). your assumption that anyone who _claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true." in other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and false muslim. we are back to square one, khomeini and hussein are still innocent and can't be defined as evil or good islamic sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 the problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_ believer and who may be "faking it". this is something known only by the person him/herself (and god). your assumption that anyone who _claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true. so that still leaves the door totally open for khomeini, hussein et rest. they could still be considered true muslims, and you can't judge them, because this is something between god and the person. you have to apply your rule as well with atheists/agnostics, you don't know their belief, this is something between them and god. so why the hoopla about khomeini not being a real muslim, and the hoopla about atheists being not real human beings? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 : in article <11838@vice.ico.tek.com>, bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com (robert : > someone spank me if i'm wrong, but didn't lord, liar, or lunatic : > originate with c.s. lewis? who's this campollo fellow anyway? : i do think so, and isn't there a clear connection with the "i do : believe, because it is absurd" notion by one of the original : christians (origen?). there is a similar statement attributed to anselm, "i believe so that i may understand". in both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept, which means that neither statement can be properly analysed in this venue. bill, i think you have a misunderstanding about atheism. lack of belief in god does not directly imply lack of understanding transcendental values. i hope you would accept the fact that for instance buddhists appreciate issues related to non-empirical reasoning without the need to automatically believe in theism. i think reading a couple of books related to buddhism might revise and fine tune your understanding of non-christian systems. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 (peter > > simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". our ability to reason is just a spec of creation. yet some think it is the ultimate. if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now. to learn you must accept that which you don't know. can anyone eaplain what he's just said here? i can't. it seems jesus used logic to make people using logic look like fools? no, that does not sound right, he maybe just told they were fools, and that's it, and people believed that... hmm, does not sound reasonable either... i find it always very intriguing to see people stating that transcendental values can't be explained, and then in the next sentence they try to explain these unexplained values. highly strange. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 : the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority : of passive christians in our world today. in the case of early christianity : the promise of a heavenly afterlife, independent of your social status, : was also a very promising gift (reason slaves and non-romans accepted : the religion very rapidly). if this is a hypothetical proposition, you should say so, if it's fact, you should cite your sources. if all this is the amateur sociologist sub-branch of a.a however, it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around ... well, as i remember jacoby's "mythmaker" talks about this to cite one source -- but i'm not sure if all christians have read this book. in addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a lutheran, having a lot of christian friends, and i even have played in two christian rock bands! so, over to you, do you have any counter claims, sources et rest that shows that christianity does not have the concept of a social promise that is independent on the social status? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature, the function of religion and of course, history. i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they're doing, and do it only for affect. however, to underestimate the power of religion creating historical events is also a big misunderstanding. for instance, would the 30-year-old war have ever started if there were no fractions between the protestants and the vatican? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 date: mon, 19 apr 1993 15:01:10 gmt from: bruce stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk> i think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good. i confess i don't know of any---indeed that's why i checked the faq to see if it had one---but i'm sure some alert reader does. i think the list of books suffers far too much from being christian based; i agree that most of the traffic is of this nature (although a few islamic references might be good) but i still think an overview would be nice. one book i have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions is called _man's religions_ by john b. noss. it was a textbook in a class i had on comparative religion or some such thing. it has some decent bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading. it doesn't "compare" religions directly but describes each one individually and notes a few similarities. but nothing i have read in it could be even remotely described as preachy or christian based. in fact, christianity mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages. the book is divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began (india, east asia, near east). there is nothing about new world religions from the aztecs, mayas, incas, etc. just the stuff people kill each other over nowadays. and a few of the older religions snuffed out along the way. if you like the old stuff, then a couple of books called "the ancient near east" by james b. pritchard are pretty cool. got the epic of gilgamesh, code of hammurabi, all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods were men. essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own religion and make it sound real good. 
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 #|> #and in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical, #|> #critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and #|> #easily led on the other. #|> indeed i may. and one may be an atheist and also be gullible, excitable #|> and easily led. #|> #i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates #|> #that a person is easily led. whether they have a worship or belief #|> #in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be #|> #beside the point. #|> sure. but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing, #|> not whether they are easily led. #not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible, excitable #and easily led from some concrete cause. in that case we would also #have to discuss if that concrete cause, rather than atheism, was the #factor that caused their subsequent behaviour. i'm not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour - merely that it is not relevant to the definition of atheism, which is 'lack of belief in gods'. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 #|> #false dichotomy. you claimed the killing were *not* religiously #|> #motivated, and i'm saying that's wrong. i'm not saying that #|> #each and every killing is religiously motivate, as i spelled out #|> #in detail. #|> which killings do you say are religously motivated? #for example, i would claim that the recent assassination of four #catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira #was probably religously motivated. #|> at the time #|> of writing, i think that someone who claims the current violence is #|> motivated by religion is reaching. #what would you call is when someone writes "the killings in n.i #are not religously motivated?" i'd say it was motivated by a primitive notion of revenge, and by misguided patriotism. otherwise, i'd have to wonder how come mainland catholics are not killed by mainland protestants, and southern catholics are not killed by southern protestants, and so on. take away all plausible causes bar religion, and the violence diminishes markedly. gee, why _is_ that? #|> now, it's possible to argue that #|> religion *in the past* is a major contributing factor to the violence in #|> the present, but i don't know of any evidence that this is so - and i'm #|> not enough of a historian to debate it. #given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland #into a country that has a particular church written into its #constitution, and which has restriction on civil rights dictated #by that church, i fail to see why the word "past" is appropriate. the country also has a different official language written in its constitution (and vice versa :-) - maybe they're motivated by a love of irish poetry. your argument is fallacious, jon. for what it's worth, i agree with all that you say about ireland above, and more. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 values can also refer to meaning. for example in computer science the value of 1 is true, and 0 is false. not in lisp. true, all you need to define is one statement that defined one polarity, and all the other states are considered the other polarity. then again what is the meaning of nil, false or true :-) ? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 (deletion) #>and if a "real large lot" (nice phrase) of people agree that there is a #>football on a desk, i'm supposed to see a logical difference between the two? #>perhaps you can explain the difference to me, since you seem to see it #>so clearly. #(rest deleted) #that's a fallacy, and it is not the first time it is pointed out. it's not a fallacy - note the if. if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value (we're not doing ethics yet benedikt), then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial the reference to it's not yet being ethics is dubious. you have used the terms absolute, objective and others interchangeably. same with moral values, values, at all, worth, measuers, and usefulness. you infer from them as if they were the same. to the if. when the if is not fulfilled, your intermission is a waste of time. assuming that you don't intend this, it is reasonable to conclude that you want to argue a point. you have made a interesting statement here, namely that of the disinterested observer. there is no such thing in morals. probably the shortest proof for objective and morality being a contradiction. #for one, you have never given a set of morals people agree upon. unlike #a football. further, you conveniently ignore here that there are #many who would not agree on tghe morality of something. the analogy #does not hold. i have, however, given an example of a value people agree on, and explained why. people will agree that their freedom is valuable. i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics - the if assertion above. and that is what i'm talking about, there isn't a point in talking about ethics if this can't be agreed. fine. and that freedom is valuable is not generally agreed upon. i could name quite a lot of people who state the opposite. (not that that wasn't mentioned before). in other words, you have nothing to fulfill your strong claims with. #one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football, #while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees #with a set of morals you have to give. i'm not doing morals (ethics) if we can't get past values. as i say, the only cogent objection to my 'freedom' example is that maybe people aren't talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable. maybe not, and i want to think about this some, especially the implications of its being true. clutching a straw. i don't believe in mappings into metaphysical sets were loaded terms are fixpoints. those who deny the morality of freedom make quite clear what they say, their practice is telling. yes, there are even those who are willingly unfree. it is quite common in religions, by the way. for one, there is a religion which is named submission. don't even try to argue that submission is freedom. #further, the above is evidence, not proof. proof would evolve out of testing #your theory of absolute morals against competing theories. garbage. that's not proof either. if it were so, it would argue my case. but i am afraid that that is considered #the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer #the objections. evidence that you are a preacher. name that fallacy. there is something universally valued in a moral context. 
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 |> >i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci, which |> >ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim |> >community in the uk and elsewhere. [...deletions...] bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank - what will someone bet me they weren't "real" islamic owners and operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors. an "islamic bank" is something which operates in a different fashion to your modern bank, as i have explained here (on another thread) before. for example, islamic banks don't pay fixed interests on deposits, but a return on investments (which varies according to the market, and is not fixed like interest is). islamic banks are a relatively new phenomenon in the islamic world. there are no islamic banks in "the west", including the usa, to my knowledge. i doubt if the market for them exists there -- at least not while "islamic banks" are at a relatively early stage of their development as is the case now. bcci is most certainly not an "islamic bank" -- did bcci ever pay a fixed interest rate on deposits? if the answer to this question is "yes", then bcci was not an islamic bank, as islamic banks are specifically set up to _not_ pay or charge interest. whether some muslims partially owned the bank or whatever is completely fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur'an and have given my arguments for this. this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested. khomeini, being dead, really can't respond, but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry. this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism. don't mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to condemn without having even your most basic facts straight. if you want some examples, go back and look at your previous posts, where you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini's supposed infallibility. as salaam a-laikum 
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 (about my reply) diplomatic :-) it a society that is constantly on the verge of flaming, usenet, diplomacy is the best way to ensure the voice of reason gets through, isn't it? i realize i'm fighting occam's razor in this argument, so i'll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary. kevin, unfortunately you are now delving into field i know too little about, algorithms. your reasoning, as i see it, is very much along the lines of roger penrose, who claimed that mathematical 'insight' cannot be algorithmic in his book _the emperor's new mind: concerning computers, minds, and the laws of physics_. however, penrose's claim that he _has_ mathematical insight, or your similar claim that wavefunctions collapse only when we consciously take a look, could be just illusions. we are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints - i try to ponder on the problem of consciousness from an evolutionary perspective, realising that it might not be anything special, but certainly useful. thinking back of what i wrote, do you think worms have minds or not? they are able to experience pain, at least they behave just like that. yet it is conceivable that we might some day in the future perform a "total synthesis of c. elegans" from the elements. would such a worm have a mind? firstly, i'm not impressed with the ability of algorithms. they're great at solving problems once the method has been worked out, but not at working out the method itself. this is true to some extent. however, i do not think that our brains work like computers, at all. in fact, there is substantial evidence (skarda, 1985; skarda & freeman 1987) that brains work more or less chaotically, generating enough randomness for mental states to evolve. our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators, i suppose. the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered. does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre-programmed into our brains? this is somewhat unlikely, given that our brains ultimately are encoded in 46 chromosomes worth of genetic material, much of which isn't used. indeed, this is extremely unlikely, given the vast impact of nurture on our mind and brain. i suggest, however, that before trying to understand our consciousness as a collection of algorithms. kevin, take a look at the references i mentioned, and think again. i still think the best experts on the nature of a conscious mind are neurologists, neuropsychologists and biologists (but do not flame me for my opinions), since they study beings that are the reason i am repeating my advice is that this discussion cannot lead to anywhere if our backgrounds are too different. and please, do not bring qm into this discussion at all - not all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness plays some special role in physics. i would say it doesn't. the other problem with algorithms is their instability. not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code, yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire (there are side-effects, but patients still seem remarkably stable.) also, neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate - can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it's again, _brains are not computers_. don't forget this. this does not mean they need something else to work - they just work differently. their primary 'purpose' is perception and guidance of action, self-awareness and high intelligence are later appearances. the next problem is the sticky question of "what is colour?" (replace 'colour' with the sensation of your choice.) presumably, the materialist viewpoint is that it's the product of some kind of chemical reaction. the usual products of such a reaction are energy + different chemicals. is colour a mixture of these? you are still expecting that we could find the idea of 'green' in our brains somewhere, perhaps in the form of some chemical. this is not how i see it. the sensation 'green' is a certain time-dependent pattern in the area v4 of our visual cortex, and it is distributed with the help of areas v1 and v2 to the rest of the brain. indeed, a firing pattern. i have sometimes thought of our consciousness as a global free induction pattern of these local firing patterns, but this is just idle speculation. scientific american's september 1992 issue was a special issue on mind and brain. have you already read it from cover to cover? ;-) there are two articles on visual perception, so you might be but again, please note that subjective experiences cannot be observed from a third-person perspective. if we see nothing but neuronal activity, we cannot go on to conclude that this is not the kalat (1988) writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation of different areas of brain have led to various changes in the patients' state of mind. for instance, a patient whose septal area was stimulated (without his knowledge) by remote control during a psychiatric interview was quickly cured of his depression, and started discussing a plan to seduce his girlfriend. stimulations in the temporal lobe have sometimes led to embarrassing situations, when the patients have started flirting with the in conclusion, there is evidence that 1) brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences, brain damage is usually equivalent to some sort of mind damage 2) conscious processes involve substantial brain activity in various areas of brain - when we think of colours, our visual cortex is activated etc. 3) consciousness is an afterthought - we become conscious of our actions with a half a second delay, and our brains are ahead of our 'conscious will' by at least 350 ms. thus, i think it is fruitful to turn the question "why do 'i' see colours" around and ask "what is this 'i' that seems to be observing?", since it seems that our conscious mind is not the king of our brains. if this is so, a computer won't see colour, because the chemistry is different. does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn't? it shouldn't, because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances. so why do we see colour? this depends on what is meant by 'seeing colours'. does a neural network that is capable of recognising handwritten numbers from 0 to 9 see the numbers, if it is capable of sorting them? if you are asking, "why does an animal who is conscious of itself as an observer have an evolutionary advantage over an animal who doesn't", i have a good answer - read my previous posting, where i wrote why a sense of identity helps social animals to swap roles and act more morally, so that they don't unconsciously kill each other with newly discovered weapons. (a bit extreme, but this is the basic idea.) when early _homo_ became more and more efficient in using tools, a sense of identity and the concept of 'self' had to evolve in line with this development. indeed, respect for others and conscious altruistic behaviour might be evolutionary advantages for social animals, such as early humans. if i remember correctly, quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction, with two processes acting on it. the first process has been called 'unitary evolution' (or 'u'), is governed by schroedinger's equation and is well known. the second process, called various things such as 'collapse of the wavefunction' or 'state vector reduction' (or 'r'), and is more mysterious. it is usually said to occur when a 'measurement' takes place, although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs. when it does occur, the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction. if minds are required for this, does this mean that until human minds came to the scene, wavefunctions never collapsed, but remained in the superpositions for aeons? my, how powerful we are. this has been discussed before, and i think this topic is irrelevant, since we do not agree that minds are necessary, and neither do anyway, i'm speculating that minds would be in part x. there seems to be some link between consciousness and r, in that we never see linear superpositions of anything, although there are alternative explainations for this. i've no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x, but since this is only speculation, that won't matter too much :-) my main point is that there might be a place for minds in i agree, but not in the sense you apparently mean above - physics needs sharp minds to solve many real problems. ;-) i'll go back to my nice padded cell now, if that's ok with you :-) it's ok, if you don't forget to take with you the references i wrote about in my previous posting, plus the following: kalat, james w. (1988): biological psychology. 3rd ed., wadsworth publishing company, belmont, ca 1988. skarda, c. (1985): explaining behavior: bringing the brain back in. inquiry 29:187-202. skarda, c. & freeman, w. (1987): how brains make chaos in order to make sense of the world. behavioral and brain sciences 10:161-173. ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 : this post is probably either brilliant or insane. do let me know : which... :-) a brilliant example of using the introspective objection against materialist theories of consciousness. diplomatic :-) i realize i'm fighting occam's razor in this argument, so i'll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary. firstly, i'm not impressed with the ability of algorithms. they're great at solving problems once the method has been worked out, but not at working out the method itself. as a specific example, i like to solve numerical crosswords (not the simple do-the-sums-and-insert-the-answers type, the hard ones.) to do these with any efficiency, you need to figure out a variety of tricks. now, i know that you can program a computer to do these puzzles, but in doing so you have to work out the tricks _yourself_, and program them into the computer. you can, of course, 'obfuscate' the trick, and write the program so that it is uncovered, but as far as i can see, the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered. does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre-programmed into our brains? this is somewhat unlikely, given that our brains ultimately are encoded in 46 chromosomes worth of genetic material, much of which isn't used. one way around this is to bring the environment into the equation, but (again, as far as i can see) this still has an air of 'if you see object x, then perform action y,' and we don't seem to get anywhere. the algorithm has to anticipate what it might see, and what conclusions to draw from it's experience. the other problem with algorithms is their instability. not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code, yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire (there are side-effects, but patients still seem remarkably stable.) also, neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate - can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it's the next problem is the sticky question of "what is colour?" (replace 'colour' with the sensation of your choice.) presumably, the materialist viewpoint is that it's the product of some kind of chemical reaction. the usual products of such a reaction are energy + different chemicals. is colour a mixture of these? if this is so, a computer won't see colour, because the chemistry is different. does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn't? it shouldn't, because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances. so why do we see colour? however, such a view is actually a nonsolution. how should minds be able to act as observers, feel pain and pleasure and issue commands any better than the brain? moreover, how do the interactions a bit of idle speculation... if i remember correctly, quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction, with two processes acting on it. the first process has been called 'unitary evolution' (or 'u'), is governed by schroedinger's equation and is well known. the second process, called various things such as 'collapse of the wavefunction' or 'state vector reduction' (or 'r'), and is more mysterious. it is usually said to occur when a 'measurement' takes place, although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs. when it does occur, the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction. i envisage r as an interaction between the wavefunction and 'something else,' which i shall imaginitively call 'part x.' it seems reasonable to assume that _something_ causes r, although that something might be the wavefunction itself (in which case, part x is simply the wavefunction. note, though, that we'd need more than u to explain r.) anyway, i'm speculating that minds would be in part x. there seems to be some link between consciousness and r, in that we never see linear superpositions of anything, although there are alternative explainations for this. i've no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x, but since this is only speculation, that won't matter too much :-) my main point is that there might be a place for minds in i'll go back to my nice padded cell now, if that's ok with you :-) kevin anthoney kax@cs.nott.ac.uk don't believe anything you read in .sig files. 
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 the life , death, and resurection of christ is documented historical fact. not by any standard of history i've seen. care to back this up, sans the lies apologists are so fond of? however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him. neat trick uh? not really. most of the prophesies aren't even prophesies. they're prayers and comments taken from the torah quite out of context. seems xians started lying right from the beginning. there is no way to get into a sceptical heart. you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have. my we're an arrogant ass, aren't we? you must trust, not just go to church and participate in it's activities. you're wrong to think we haven't. the trust was in something that doesn't were you ever willing to die for what you believed? i'm still willing to die for what i believe and don't believe. so were the loonies in waco. so what? besides, the point's not to die for what one believes in. the point's to make that other sorry son-of-a-bitch to die for what *he* believes in! :) doesn't anyone else here get tired of these cretins' tirades? peter the damed, and damned proud of it! don't forget to sing: they say there's a heaven for those who will wait some say it's better, but i say it ain't i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young! 
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 this is the most unmitigated bilge i've seen in a while. jim brown obviously has possession of the right-wing token. diplomatic alternatives, including sanctions, were ineffective. "in december, former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told a senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq $100 million per day, and that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world. iraq, he suggested, was losing badly every day it defied the un demands, while the community of nations won every day -- with no taking of life or loss of life." -- fcnl washington newsletter. as i understand, that number is deceptive. the reason is that the money cost was in non-oil sales for the most part. iraq still is not allowed to sell oil, or do many of the things under the initial sanctions, but is still surviving. and btw, the reason i brought up the blanket-bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being "so deplorable". yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn't accurate enough to hit industrial/military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time. but in the gulf war, precision bombing was the norm. bullshit!!! in the gulf massacre, 7% of all ordnance used was "smart." the rest - that's 93% - was just regular, dumb ol' iron bombs and stuff. have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage? or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as "the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky"? of the ~93% (i have heard figures closer to 80%, but i won't quibble your figures), most was dropped in carpet bombing of regions only occupied by enemy troops. a b-52 drops a lot of bombs in one sortie, and we used them around the clock. not to mention other smaller aircraft using dumb 2. the patriot uses a proximity fuse. the adjusted figures for number of patriot kills of ss-1 derivitives is ~60-70%. that figure came not from some fluke in the pentagon, but a someone working with such stuff in another part of dod. 3. the statement precision bombing was the norm, is true around areas where civilians were close to the target. we dropped by tonnage very little bombs in populated regions, explaining the figures. and of the 7% that was the "smart" stuff, 35% hit. again - try to follow me here - that means 65% of this "smart" arsenal missed. this figure, is far below all the other figures i have seen. if it is indeed accurate, then how do you explain the discrepancy between that figure, and other figures from international organizations? most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to 70%, which is still far higher than your 35%. or does your figure say a bomb missed if the plane took off with it, and the bomb never hit the target, regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped? such methods are used all the time to lie with statistics. the stories of "hundreds of thousands" of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk. prove it. i have a source that says that to date, the civilian death count (er, excuse me, i mean "collateral damage") is about 200,000. i have _never_ seen any source that was claiming such a figure. please post the source so its reliability can be judged. * mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu * never program and drink beer at the same * * m^2 * time. it doesn't work. * 
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 nice attempt chris . . . verrry close. you missed the conspiracy by 1 step. joseph knew who knocked her up. he couldn't let it be known that somebody else got ol' mary prego. that wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. so what happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and they decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise been the downfall for both. clever indeed. come to think of it . . . i have gained a new respect for the couple. maybe joseph and mary should receive all of the praise being paid to jesus. lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities! i could just see it now: mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and joseph say that it was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn! they'd have a lot of explaining to do.... :-) dave "buckminster" fuller how is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ? if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
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 how would a man of 7th century arabia have known what *not to include* in the holy qur'an (assuming he had authored it)? so now we're judging the qur'an by what's not in it? how many mutton headed arguments am i going to have to wade through today? lots of other books have been written on this subject. those books can speak far more eloquently than i. one would hope. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view, and a minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing. but there are people who say that they are atheists. if they aren't atheists, what are they? when the quran uses the word *din* it means way of individual thinking, behaving, communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs. this is often interpreted as the much weaker term religion. the atheists are not mentioned in the quran along with jews, mushriqin, christians, etc. because the latter are all din. to have a din you need a set of beliefs, assumptions, etc, to forma a social code. for example the marxist have those, such as history, conflict, etc. that they do not put idols (sometimes they did) to represent those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other mushriq, or roughly polytheists. there cannot be social atheism, because when there is a community, that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate the society. when they inscribe assumptions, say nation, or "progress is the natural consequence of human activity" or "parlamentarian democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government", however they individually insist they do not have gods, from the quranic point of view they do. therefore by definition, atheism does not exist. "we are a atheist society" in fact means "we reject the din other than ours". atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols/gods/dogmas/ suppositions/.. of the society that they part, and in that case that is a personal deviation of belief, and quran tells about such deviations and disbelief. but as i mentioned, from a quranic point of looking at things, there is no atheism in the macro level. i think it took more than one minute. 
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 the recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb through my archives and pull out some of "the best of alt.atheism" for your reading pleasure. i'll post a couple of these a day unless group concensus demands that i stop, or i run out of good i haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving attributions. i think the following comes from john a. johnson, but someone correct me if i'm wrong. this is probably the longest of my entire collection. so that the prophecy be in considering the christian religion, and judging it according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy. the scribe matthew is perhaps the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in the career of jesus of nazareth. as you will see, matthew's main strategy is to take various old testament passages, often not even about the promised messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in the new testament. we must also bear in mind the question of the authenticity of the accounts. since the gospels were written at least 35 years after jesus was executed, we do not know how much happened exactly as stated. but, for purposes of analysis, we will take particular claims at face value. immanuel: we begin, of course, at the beginning. (mt 1.21-22): "[mary] will bear a son, and you, joseph, will name him 'jesus' (which means g'd is salvation), for he will save his people from their sins." all this happened to fulfil what the lord had spoken by a prophet: [isaiah 7.1-16]: in the days of ahaz (c. 750 bce), king of judah, rezin of syria and pekah of israel made war on jerusalem (capitol of judah), but could not quite conquer it. when the house of david (i.e. ahaz and his court in judah) were told of this, ...its heart and the heart of its people shook... and, the lord g'd said to isaiah, "go to meet with ahaz..." ...and the lord spoke to ahaz (through prophet isaiah, naturally) saying, "ask a sign of g'd your lord. it can be as deep as sheol or as high as heaven." but, ahaz said, "i won't ask; i will not put the lord to a test." then (isaiah) said, "hear then, o house of david. is it not enough for you to weary men, that you must weary my god too? therefore, the lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a young woman is with child and will bear a son, and name him "immanuel," which means, "g'd is with us." he will eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil and choose good. for, before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will have been deserted... matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics. further, he the hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as specifically, "virgin." but, this is not a prophecy about the messiah. it is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years later. it is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother. in short, it not about jesus. matthew has made use of a verse out of context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of mary. it should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit mary. mary, virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child. of course, the fit is shady and has problems. jesus, while thought of by later christians to be g'd walking among men, was never called by the name, immanuel. if christianity wished to claim this prophecy for jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second class prophecy. not too convincing. egypt: after jesus's birth in bethlehem, matthew tells about a quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to egypt, as if he wishes to liken jesus to moses. this was done to escape an alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, herod. [mt 2.15] ...and remained there until the death of herod. this was to fulfil what the lord had spoken: "out of egypt i have cal-led my son." what the lord really said was this. [hosea 11.1] when israel was a child, i loved him. and, out of egypt i called my son. the more i called them (my people), the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the ba'als, and kept burning incense to idols. matthew conveniently omits the rest of hosea's oracle. but, it was indeed israel that, once called out of egypt, wanted to return. this is history. jesus is certainly not being spoken of here. and, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind up with a jesus that flees and resists g'd. again, this prophecy is just not as convincing as matthew probably had hoped. rachel weeps: while jesus is off vacationing in egypt, matthew says that king herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of all young male children. matthew then writes, [mt 2.17-18] by this, that which was spoken by the prophet jeremiah was fulfilled: "a voice was heard in ramah, wailing and loud lamentation-- rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more." the reference is to a passage in jeremiah 31.15, referring to the carrying off of israel into exile by sargon (of assyria) in 722 bce. rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of israel, ephraim, and manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no more." it is metaphorical, of course, since rachel lived and dies before the hebrews were even in the egyptian exile. it is interesting to note that it was leah, not rachel, who was the ancestor of the judeans (the land where jesus and bethlehem were). if anyone should do weeping for her "children," it is leah. the only connexion that rachel has with bethlehem is that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city, "on the way to ephrath, (bethlehem)." as for herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely that such an event actually occurred. one never knows, but the event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the bible, nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less evil deeds of herod were carefully recorded. this might be a prime example of how events were added to jesus's life to enhance the message of the church's gospel. because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the infant moses in egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set up by matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of jesus. it is not surprising that matthew conveniently neglects to mention the rest of the jeremiah quote. the "children" the prophet speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the assyrian empire. g'd comforts the weeping rachel, saying that the children will be returned-- he will gather them back together. of course, this would not suit matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are dead for good. again, the "prophecy" matthew sets up is not even that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too the nazarene: we do not even have to go to the next chapter to find another matthean prophecy. after leaving egypt, joseph & wife take the infant jesus to live in the city of nazareth, [mt 2.23] ...that what was spoken of by the prophets might be fulfilled, "he shall be called a nazarene." first thing we notice is that matthew does not mention the name of the prophet(s) this time. second, we have to ask who "he" is. there are no messianic prophecies speaking of a nazarene. worse, there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a nazarene. still worse, there are no nazarenes mentioned in the old testament at all. in the book of judges, an angel tells samson's mother that she will, [judges 13.5] "...conceive and bear a son. no razor shall tough his head, for he will be a nazirite to his god from the day of his birth. he will deliver israel from the hands of the philistines." this is of course not a prophecy of jesus, or the messiah of g'd. but, it is the best that can be found. obviously, matthew has begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is simple making them up now. bearing our diseases: jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses and disabilities. [mt 8.17] this was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet isaiah, "he took our infirmities and bore our diseases." as expected, the verse quoted in isaiah is quoted out of context, and a few words are skewed to fit the christian scheme. we have, [is 53.4] surely he, [the suffering servant], has borne our sickness, and carried our pains. from a reading of the surrounding passages in isaiah, we know that the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation of israel, jehovah's chosen servant and people. he speaks to the israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations that look upon it. this image is deeply ingrained in jewish identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, israel as the instrument of the nations' salvation by g'd. the verses speak of israel taking on the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and discipline. they do not speak of a "servant" going around and healing people. notice that the servant in isaiah takes on the sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual jews). jesus, as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself. the verses here in isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but rather something that had already happened. while it is believed that jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear the illnesses he healed. so, while someone might want to say that, figuratively, jesus reenacted the deeds of israel in his spiritual atonement, he has to admit that matthew's parallel misses where he intended it to have its effect. silent messiah: upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that jesus ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse the attention of the local rulers. [mt 12.15-21] this was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet isaiah. "behold my servant whom i have chosen, my beloved, with whom my soul is pleased. i will put my spirit on him, and he will announce justice to the gentiles. he will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his name." the isaiah passage quoted reads, [is 42.1-4] behold my servant whom i uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. i have put my spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the nations. we will not cry or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street. he will not break a bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick. he will faithfully bring forth justice. he will not fail (burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has established justice in the earth. and the coastlands await his law. you see, matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage, because it does not suit the dealings of jesus. christians could never think of jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind burn dimly. but, the servant nation of israel will indeed come to an end when its job is done. when the gentiles come to embrace g'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will be the children of g'd. also, the ending phrase has been changed from the judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the christologic, "the gentiles will hope in his name." while the original proclaims the torah law of jehovah, the other rewrites it to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name." if one has any doubt the servant referred to is not jesus, one has only to read the whole chapter, isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and plundered..." so, we see that when matthew's attempt at "prophecy" is examined, it crumbles. three days and three nights: now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very mouth of the god jesus himself. he speaks of his crucifixion and [mt 12.40] for as jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know how the jews understood days. as far as day names went, each was 24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset 6pm. what was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from 6am to the ending sunset at 6pm. thus, according to our time scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm friday evening, and lasted until 6pm saturday evening. this is why the jews celebrate their sabbath on the daylight portion of saturdays, instead of sundays. (it seems like a real miracle that christians didn't forget that saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!) thus, when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of. thus, jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights. as the good book tells us, jesus was crucified on the "ninth hour," which is 3pm, friday afternoon. he then was put into the grave sometime after that. then, jesus left the grave, "rose," before dawn of what we call sunday (the dawn after the sabbath was over). what this means is that jesus was, using our time for clarity, in the grave from 6pm friday night to some time before 6am sunday morning. we could also add a little time before 6pm friday, since the bible is not specific here. what this means using jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day. certainly this is a problem for jesus prediction. there is absolutely no way we are even able to have his death involve three days and three nights --even using modern time measurements. we then are led to suspect that this error is another one of matthew's little mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his god's mouth. and no matter who made the prediction, it is more than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing. hearing & understanding: jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the message of jesus. he reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones he wants. if the people cannot understand them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not accept the "plain" message any better. matthew says, [mt 13.14-16] with them [the audience] indeed in fulfilled the prophecy of isaiah which says, "you will indeed hear but never understand; and you will indeed see, but never perceive. because this people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them." the original isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his call to the ministry. this is in 740 bce, when israel is flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of assyria. isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from g'd, calling him to bring reform to israel and judah. [is 6.9-13] and g'd said, "go, and say to this people, `hear and hear, but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." then isaiah said, "how long, lord?" and he said, "until the cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land is utterly desolate, and the g'ds take men far away, and forsaken places are many in the land. and though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still stands when the tree is felled." the holy seed is its here we see that it is really g'd who causes the people of israel to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the promise made to solomon's (and david's) seed/lineage. if you read the rest of isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan of g'd to use israel as a servant, a light to the nations. (look at isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3) we see that matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion of isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs. more than that, he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't understand jesus's stories. and, as we see, isaiah's verses are not prophecies, but rather commands from g'd to him, in the present. once again, matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face. matthew tries again to make jesus's parables look like they have the prophetic approval. [mt 13.35] ...he said nothing to them without a parable. this was to fulfil what was spoken of by the prophet, "i will open my mouth to them in parables. i will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation of the world." matthew really botches up here. he attempts to quote not from a prophet, but from the psalms. [ps 78.2-4] i will open my mouth in parable. i will utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have heard and known, things that our fathers have told us. we will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the lord... as was pointed out, the verses in the psalms do not really come from a prophet. you might also want to know that earlier copies of matthew's gospel even inserted isaiah's name as this prophet. apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some of it up. perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once again, matthew has altered the old testament scriptures. as jesus has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not understand them. the parables in the psalms are not to be hidden. further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told us." jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the world." indeed jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion. this is in direct opposition to the parables in the psalms. no wonder matthew had to rewrite them! and still once again, matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face. but, christians rarely look at this. matthew's prophecies aren't the only things about christianity that are beginning to look bad. excuses of little faith: in mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go around casting out demons, except in one case. not knowing what epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons. it is no wonder that the disciples were unable to "dispossess" the epileptic. but, jesus, perhaps no more enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying they didn't have enough faith. this seems strange. why was this demon special? it seems that either a true believer has faith or he does not. apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move mountains. of course, you will find no one, these days that can move real mountains. no one parts seas. the only miracles the charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to mexico or some faraway place. major miracles are making some old woman's arthritis feel better on sunday morning t.v. and the gods, including jesus, are always shrouded in ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their sacred pasts. they are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles of days long gone. yet, life goes on. tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time or a distant place. gods used to reveal themselves to men in the old days, jehovah too. but, now they are silent. all the theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see god anymore. we're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our own demands on g'd's appearance; if we had the right faith, if we were willing to meet g'd on his terms... yet, even the most pious of men have not seen g'd. you, dear reader, have not seen g'd. not literally, you know that to be true. (i know that's presumptuous and bold. but, searching your heart, you know what i mean.) all that we've seen religions do is make people feel good and content about not seeing g'd. they say our little faith does not merit us to see g'd. sometimes, they say, "see the love in these people you worship with... see the lives of people change... that is seeing g'd." thus people get lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning g'd into the everyday sights. but, that is not seeing g'd as i am speaking of... it is not seeing g'd the way people used to see. what we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the forgiveness practised by christian & atheist alike, beauty created by the mind of man. these are the things that are done; these are what we see. but, it is said this is so only because everybody has little faith. jesus rides on an ass: shortly after accepting the role of the jewish messiah king, jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into [mt 21.5] this took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet, saying, tell the daughter of zion, "behold, your king is coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a ass-colt." of course, the passage quoted from zechariah 9.9 reads a little lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass- colt... he will command peace to the nations. there isn't all that much difference here, except that zechariah only involves one animal --an ass-colt-- while matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently. thus, he has jesus call for both a colt and an adult ass. from matthew's version, we get a comical picture of the divine christ sweating it to straddle two donkeys. this could inevitably lead to a theological, proctological dilemma! we find that in the account written earlier by st. mark, only the colt was called for and brought to jesus. this indeed fits the verses of zechariah properly, and shows us that in matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has bungled. now, excluding many respectable christians i have met, i have noticed that while christ is thought to have ridden on asses, the situation is often reversed nowadays... then, entering the jerusalem temple, the priests were angered at people and youngsters calling jesus the messiah. but, jesus replied as we might expect matthew to have done, [mt 21.16] haven't you read? `out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.' it is more likely that matthew made this response up since jesus was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things and since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to fit matthew's track record quite well. we might ask jesus or matthew, "haven't you read?" for the source reads, [psalms 8.1-2] o yahweh our lord, how majestic is your name in the whole world! you, whose glory is chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the enemy and the avenger. the passages hardly need comment. there is no "perfect praise" spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to g'd, not his messiah king, and not jesus. as mentioned, it seems to be just one more case of matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic yhvh said to my lord...: jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised jewish messiah-king is to be descended. the jews agree-- it is king david. but, then jesus counters by quoting psalms 110, "the lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand, until i put your enemies under your feet." taken at face value, jesus is denying the necessity of davidic descent. one assumes he is in opposition to their answer. of course, the christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine nature of the messiah-king. it's tempting to believe this, if one is a christian and not interested in matters of investigation. but, there are problems. in jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the messiah. and, it is easy to see why david might refer to the messiah as his superior. we need only look at the scriptures about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king, bringing the jews to times even better than those under david's rule. of course, the jews listening had no good answer, and the passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the christians worship. the problem lies in the meaning of this psalm, an error that apparently several jews of jesus's time had also made. one must remember that there were various factions among the jews, often as a result of different expectations of the messiah-king. jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and who interpreted psalms 110, among others, as being messianic. what is the problem, then? psalm 110 literally reads, yhvh's utterance to my lord: "sit at my right hand, until i make your enemies your footstool." yhvh sends forth your mighty scepter from zion. rule in the midst of your foes! your people will offer themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the holy mountains. "you are a priest of the order of melchizedek forever." the word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by christian bibles to denote divinity in this lord. but, in the hebrew, the word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists. adoni simply means "lord," a generic term as we would use it. it is used often in the scriptures to refer to kings and to g'd. it is merely an address of respect. there is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king. that this is supposed to be written by david is not certain. the title of the psalm translates to either "a psalm of david," or "a psalm about david." it seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court poet, about david's covenant and endorsement from g'd. if the psalm had been written by david, it is unlikely that he would be talking about the messiah. the idea of a perfect king, descended from david, was not present in david's age. we have extensive tales of david's doings and sayings-- none of which include any praises of a messiah. many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after david was dead, in times of the exile when g'd had put his show of favour for david's kingdom on hold. the description in the psalm fit david very well. david was promised by g'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies, successful judgement among the nations he conquered. he achieved the priesthood common to melchizedek in being a righteous king, enabled to bless the people. it all fits. we do not have to blame this problem on matthew alone, though. here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though his use of the scripture is rather questionable. still, this event is common to the other gospels too. so, we let matthew off a little more easily this time. it is interesting to note, though, how matthew dresses up the event. the earlier gospel of mark tells the tale with jesus simply speaking to a crowd. matthew has the pharisees, who became the religious competition of an infant christianity, be the target of jesus's question. as we might expect, matthew writes that the event ends up by embarrassing the pharisees. such power is the pen. moses & jesus, had it together all along...: we leave the gospel story of matthew momentarily to see a pseudo-prophecy in john's gospel. the gospel story of john deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed from the real events of jesus's career as told by even matthew. but, for the moment, we will just look at one verse. the early church leaders founded a religion on the jewish hopes of a messiah king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made by g'd. when constructing the history of abraham, moses wrote of a promise of land and nationhood to the jewish people. while this was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king david, the christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment of the promise. but, to do so, they expanded on the promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom. [john 8.56] (j.c. speaking) your father, abraham, rejoiced to see my day. he say it and was glad. it would be nice to tie in approval for jesus from abraham, but, abraham knew nothing of jesus or a messiah, or anything christian. i have tried, and failed to find any event in the old testament which corresponds to john's little prophecy. it is par for the course to see st. john making up old testament backings, just like his forerunner matthew. many christians know that their faith has many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they still cling to it. the potter's field: we are told that jesus was betrayed while in jerusalem by one of his followers, judas iscariot. matthew writes, [mt 27.5-10] and throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, [judas] departed... but, the chief priests, taking the silver, said, "it isn't lawful for us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood money." so they... bought a potter's field with it to bury strangers in... then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet jeremiah, "and they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the lord directed me." this prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of old testament scripture. first, matthew has made a mistake regarding the name of the prophet. it is zechariah who utters the verses which matthew makes use of. [zech. 11.12-13] ...and they weighed out my wages, thirty shekels of silver. then yhvh said to me, "cast them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which i was paid off by them. so i took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of first of all, the verses of zechariah do not deal with a betrayer of the messiah, or of g'd. the deal with a shepherd, most likely a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people shortly before g'd would send judah and israel into conflict with one another. the word, "treasury," had been replaced by the king james scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made matthew's quote fit better. but, this is a blatant error. the correct translation of the hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also makes perfect sense in zechariah's context, whereas "potter's field" is totally unrelated. whether the mistranslation was intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation. however, given matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of intentional dishonesty. of course, matthew would have ample reason for altering the text. the thirty pieces of silver match judas's situation, and if as most christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard the contextual incongruity, matthew might have another prophecy to toss around. however, the correct translation of zechariah directly contradicts the situation with judas and the high priests. the high priests would not put the money in the treasury. the worthless shepherd of zechariah does exactly the opposite! of course, to the average thursday-night bible student, the "prophecy" as presented by matthew would be taken at new testament face value. to those, matthew's work is convincing wine, vinegar, & casting lots: then, jesus is led away to be crucified. [mt 27.34-35] ...they gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. and, when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots: that it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet, "they parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots." first of all, the vinegar offered to jesus is actually common sour wine, of the type that roman soldiers drank regularly. we find that right before jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him some to drink --not polluted with gall. [jn 19.28-30] jesus... said, "i thirst." a bowl of vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. when he had received the vinegar, he said, "it is finished;" but, matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the prophets, but one from the psalms. [ps 69.20-28] i looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but i found none. they gave me poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink... add to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no acquittal from thee. let them be blotted out of the book of the living. of course, the sour wine offered to jesus is done at his request of drink. this does indeed seem to be a show of pity. the psalm quoted is about david and his political and military enemies. it is not about the messiah or jesus. it is then not surprising that we run into further problem when we see that the "jesus" in the psalm asks g'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the jesus of the gospels says, [lk 23.34] jesus said, "father, forgive them, the don't know what they do!" further, matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by having gall (a bitter substance) put into jesus's drink, not his meat, as the psalm stipulates. with the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally ask, "what of the casting of lots?" this brings up the 22nd psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself. suffice it now to say that the fact that jesus's clothes were divided as told is no great thing. it turns out that this happened often to any felon in those days. as we will soon see, it is perhaps the least erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to jesus. it does indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of jesus's clothes. for a man so removed from worldly possessions, his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some the 22nd psalm: this psalm is attributed to david, as a lament of his condition under the attack of his enemies. it becomes a song of praise to yhvh and of hope. taken out of context, parts of it seem to fit the plight of jesus at the crucifixion quite well. we will examine the primary passages. verse 1-2: my god, my god! why have you forsaken me?! why are you so far from helping me, far from the words of my groaning? oh, my god, i cry by day, but you don't answer, and by night, but find no rest. jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross. this suggests that the whole psalm is really about jesus, rather than king david. of course, the rest of the first stanza does not fit as nicely to jesus or his execution. jesus is not pictured as complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the lamb led mute before its shearers." indeed, jesus doesn't do much groaning, even when on the cross. he certainly does not cry by both day and night on the cross. 6-8: but, i am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men... all who see me mock at me. they make faces and wag their heads; "he committed his cause to yhvh. so let him deliver him... for he delights in him." this seems to fit jesus's execution pretty well, with the exception of the holy messiah being called a worm. 12-13: many bulls encompass me... they open their mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion. 16-18: yea, dogs are round about me, a company of evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and feet. i can see all my bones... they divide my garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment. 19-21: but you, yhvh, be not far away! ...deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! save me from the mouth of the lion, and my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull! it would seem quite convincing, and i'm sure the early christian fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too. unfortunately, this prophecy has a fatal flaw. the words "have pierced" really do not exist in the psalm. the correct hebrew translation is, 16: yea, dogs are round about me, a company of evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my hands and feet... in hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character. the word in the hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari), which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal imagery employed by the psalm writer. it is convenience that would urge a christian to change the word to "ka'aru." but, to add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is just what the christian translators have chosen to do. while the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend itself to jesus so easily. verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being saved from a sword rather than a cross. this naturally fits the psalm's true subject, king david. as a side note, we now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather the forearms. this doesn't say much in favour of the traditional thought of a resurrected jesus showing his disciples the scars on his palms. but then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs. matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord jesus. but the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations of jesus's life and death. how much these scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down is a question that has serious repercussions for christian theology. it is easy to see, for those who are not faithful fundamentalists, how some of the events in the new testament might have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager matthew. but, it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims. so far, this has not said good things for st. matthew. the reference to the piercing looks a lot like jesus's crucifixion. john's gospel recount, written about 70 years after the fact, tells us at jesus's execution, [jn 19.34,37] but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and out came blood and water... these things took place that scripture be fulfilled... "the will look on him whom they've pierced." of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of context. prophet zechariah tells us how much of the nation of israel will split off from jerusalem and judah and go to war with [zc 12.7-10] and yhvh will give victory to judah... and on that day, i will seek to destroy the nations that come against jerusalem (in judah). and i will pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him like you weep over a firstborn child. john's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that matthew's attempts. matthew, at least, usually excontexts more than just one passage. john's errors are grossly obvious and blatant here. it does not speak well for any of the gospel writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their religion were founded. reckoned with transgressors: after his arrest, jesus is quickly executed for claiming the jewish kingship, messiahship. according to one version of the gospel tale, jesus gets executed along with two thieves. [mk 15.27] and with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right, one on his left. and so the scripture was fulfilled which says, "he was reckoned with the transgressors." here, mark is trying to link jesus to a passage in isaiah 53, about the servant nation of israel. the passage is not about the messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of isaiah 53, and its surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation. the verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event. the servant is thought of as a criminal. this also happens to fit the description of jesus. had the passage really been about the messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing jesus between two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in isaiah. jesus would more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry. he was considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career. locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that mark could have had made a better analogy with general comparisons. mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with [jesus] also reviled him." [15.32] this is to be expected from a couple of robbers. of course in his later recount, st. luke decides to change some things. luke tells us, [lk 23.39-43] and one of the criminals who was hanged with him railed, "aren't you the messiah?! save yourself, and us!" this certainly fits with mark's recount, which tells how the people who crucified jesus said, "save yourself!" and that the robbers did the same. but then luke goes on, but the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying, "don't you fear g'd, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? and we, indeed justly so, for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds. but, this man has done nothing wrong. and he said, "jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." and jesus answered, "verily i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived. it stretches the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech. we have a rather strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his punishment and the justness of his suffering. such a man, apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have been a robber. we wonder at the amount of theatrics created by luke. of course, luke's recount also disagrees with mark's. luke has only one criminal revile jesus, not both. it is easy enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free words of g'd do not have this avenue open. this is yet another example of a writer trying to take an old testament passage and expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology. in this case, the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have the end of the world-- mt. 24: now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages in the new testament. it is found in all three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of christianity. jesus mentions the destruction of the jewish temples and buildings, and his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world which he has been warning about. the disciples: tell us, when will this [the temple's destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the close of the age? jesus: take care that no one leads you astray, for many will come in my name, saying, "i am the christ." ...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for this must take place, but the end is not yet. for, nation will rise against nation... all this is but the beginning of the birthpangs. they will deliver you up... put you to death, and false prophets will arise and lead many astray. ...but he who endures to the end will be saved. this gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a testimony to the nations, and then the end will come. so, when you see the desolation spoken of by the prophet daniel, ...let those who are in judea flee to the mountains. immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from heaven... then will appear the sign of the son of man in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and see the son of man coming... and he will send out his angels... and gather his elect... learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. so also, when you see all these things, you will know that he is near, at the very gate. truly i say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place... but, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the angels, not the son, but only the father... therefore, you also must be ready, for the son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect. from this, it is clear that jesus thought the world would in within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples. he tells them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it will come, and thus they must be ready. theologians have wet their pants in panic to find some way out of this holy error. but, unfortunately, jesus made himself to explicit. he told his disciples that their generation would still be around at the end, and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be swept away. there have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant nature of the bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not pass away..." of course, the word for generation is used many times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples. it is an interesting notion that when god decided to learn greek, he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear. but. it is quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at least some of them) are supposed to live to the end of the world. the charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking at the apostles' responses. it becomes abundantly clear from rev. 22.7, 1 peter 4.7, 1 john 2.18, and rev. 22.20, that jesus meant exactly what he said. the end was very near. for 2,000 years, christians have rationalised this 24th chapter of matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether. for 2,000 years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back, hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that he is coming soon. surely he must be. all we must do is wait. can you imagine how tired he must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for just the right moment to spring? so, shortly after his crucifixion, jesus of nazareth, (joshua-ben-joseph), died. it is said that after three days, or three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine radiance. then the saviour decided it wasn't in the best interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven. so the story goes, anyway. as has been seen, there were many things attributed to jesus when people got around to writing the gospel stories down. to them, jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture. we have seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky. but, throughout church history, christians have held fast to faith, in simple belief. what doctrinal objections could not be solved with argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away from question. to question and investigate has never been the easiest way to treat matters. thus for 2,000 years, the prophecies cited in the new testament have gone on largely accepted. things may well continue that way for some time. pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of christianity have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support wars and persecution, i suppose there is one prophecy of which christianity can securely keep hold. [mt 10.34] jesus: "don't think that i have come to bring peace on earth. i haven't come to bring peace, but rather a sword." 
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 first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it makes sense to be one. have any of you read tony campollo's book- liar, lunatic, or the real thing? (i might be a little off on the title, but he writes the book. anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity, in the process he became a christian himself. i assume you are posting to encourage comments - how much history has tony campello read? not much it seems. the arguements he uses i am summing up. the book is about whether jesus was god or not. i know many of you don't believe, but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say. it is good to hear that there are a few reasonable christians about. if only those christian "scientists" would take note. (in australia there is a very strong movement, a bunch of christian scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly true, and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified by using the laws of physics. for example, there are a few chaps who are trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old, and that the error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed light has been rapidly decaying over the years, and this has not been accounted for. :-] ) the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. or (of course), that he never existed, and the bible was a story, and was never intended to become a manifesto for a billion people. did tony follow that one some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. who would die for a lie? wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed. millions of people have "died for a lie". this point is difficult to substantiate since it is not well defined (a great many religious arguments work in that way), but consider the many aztec warriors who sacrificed themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory of the spanish invaders. the list is endless. the aztecs lost, btw. call me a fool, but i believe he did heal people. that is perfectly reasonable, but it is not grounds for me (or anyone) to become a christian. more to the point, it does not add weight to the claim that jesus was the "real thing". niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see this right away. have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of nazi germany? more to the point, did tony mention this? one could hardly call werner heisenberg and his many colleagues fools, or illogical men, their support of hitler was based (i presume) upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with his principles. obviously my argument is invalid if tony thought that hitler was sane.... therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the real thing. hmmm.... i don't think his arguments warrant the use of a "therefore..." some other things to note. he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms, isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. this in his betrayal and crucifixion. i don't have my bible with me at this moment, next time i write i will use it. this is (unfortunately) what alot of religious discussions i have had with people result in - quoting the bible. the only reasonable way i think people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to present. if someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally, he or she will end up in all sorts of shit. tony's argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe the events described in the bible took place, but to convince someone, who thinks the bible is total fiction, that jesus is real by quoting the book is totally pointless. for example, in mathematics you cannot say "a is equal to b because a is equal to b". i don't think most people understand what a christian is. that would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed in religious wars, and why there are hundreds of different versions all claiming to be correct. is certainly not what i see a lot in churches. rather i think it should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for god's sake. he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same. hey we can't do it, god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him. that's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. but just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes time. we don't rush it in one day, christianity is your whole life. it is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in a while. we box everything into time units. such as work at this time, sports, tv, social life. god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for i think if you posted this part to alt.religion you would get more flames than here :-). i have never really understood why the emotional sentiments of a stranger should be of interest to other people. someone famous said that there two evils in life, polititians and churchs, one rules by fear of the living, the other by fear of the dead. if i am pressed i could probably find the exact quotation. 
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 only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible. since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son. a) i think that he has a rather witty .sig file. it sums up a great deal of atheistic thought (imo) in one simple sentence. b) atheism isn't an "other religion". steve_mullins@vos.stratus.com () "if a man empties his purse into his my opinions <> stratus' opinions () head, no one can take it from him ------------------------------ () ---------------benjamin franklin 
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 ##i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible, the quran, and ##science by maurice baucaille, a french surgeon. it is not comprehensive, ##but, it is well researched. i imagine your library has it or can get it ##for you through interlibrary loan. i shall try to get hold of it (when i have time to read of course :-) ##in short, dr baucaille began investigating the bible because of pre- ##ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies. he assumed that ##some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by- ##gone days. so, he read what he could find in hebrew, greek, aramaic. ##what he found was that the problems didn't go away, they got worse. ##then, he decided to see if other religions had the same problems. ##so, he picked up the holy qur'an (in french) and found similar prob- ##lems, but not as many. so, he applied the same logoic as he had ##with the bible: he learned to read it in arabic. the problems he ##had found with the french version went away in arabic. he was unable ##to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur'an, but, ##what he did find made sense with modern understanding. so, he ##investigated the traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to ##say about science. they were filled with science problems; after ##all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by ##pour standards, a primitive world view. his conclusion was that, ##while he was impressed that what little the holy qur'an had to ##say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the ##holy qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in ##the traditions. how would a man of 7th century arabia have known ##what *not to include* in the holy qur'an (assuming he had authored ##it)? so in short the writer (or writers) of quran decided to stay away from science. (if you do not open your mouth, then you don't put you foot into your mouth either). but then if you say quran does not talk much about science, then one can not make claims (like bobby does) that you have great science in quran. basically i want to say that *none* of the religious texts are supposed to be scientific treatises. so i am just requesting the theists to stop making such wild claims. --- vinayak vinayak dutt e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu standard disclaimers apply 
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 i would like a list of bible contadictions from those of you who dispite being free from christianity are well versed in the bible. 
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 i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible, the quran, and science by maurice baucaille, a french surgeon. it is not comprehensive, he was unable to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur'an, but, what he did find made sense with modern understanding. so, he investigated the traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to say about science. they were filled with science problems; after all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by pour standards, a primitive world view. his conclusion was that, while he was impressed that what little the holy qur'an had to say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the holy qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions. how would a man of 7th century arabia have known what *not to include* in the holy qur'an (assuming he had authored it)? this book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue. the book is in two sections. section 1 contains a fairly reasonable analysis of the bible, showing many inconsistencies between the bible and modern science. well we all know that, no surprises. section 2 analyses the koran's version of the old testament stories, and seems, on the face of it, to present a good case showing the koran is consistent with modern science. however, it was plain to me, that this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the koran. take the flood, for example, the bible is full of detail, ("forty days and forty nights", "pair of every animal", etc.), we all know this is nonsense. the koran's description of the same event is so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as "a big river flooded for a few days and caused much damage". yes, no contradiction but also not much fact. the koran might be consistent with modern science, but being consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that time, does not seem much of an achievement. the book concludes by saying something like, the koran must have had divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot of (to us now) ridiculous ideas about the universe, and none of them can be found in the koran! arguing for the greatness of a book by talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme. the above is, of course, from memory so i may have missed some points. leonard e-mail: l.newnham@bradford.ac.uk 
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 : exodus 21:22-25: : 22 and if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with : child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further : injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may : demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. : 23 but if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint : as a penalty life for life, : 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, : 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. : the most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if : men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry, the penalty : is only a fine. if, however, the woman is injured or dies, the : *lex talionis* doctrine of "an eye for an eye" applies. this is the : jewish interpretation, and is supported by jewish commentaries on : these verses. : this is quite an embarrassment for pro-lifer christians, so there is : of course an alternate explanation. the alternative interprets the : word "miscarriage" to mean "premature birth"--i.e., the child is born : alive--and "further injury" to mean injury to either the woman or : the fetus. this is not a straightforward interpretation, it is not : (so far as i know) supported by any jewish commentaries, and it does : not appeared to be supported by any other part of the bible. what if any, historical reference do we have to abortion at this time? did the ancient jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion? (i am truly asking, not making a point veiled as a question). if there is little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion, it is not surprising the bible makes little reference to it, as it makes little reference to nuclear power and contamination. while your interpretation is a reasonable one, i see no reason to reject the other out of hand. the king jimmy translation says "if there is no further mischief." this does not necessarily imply to the woman. i know if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort, we would feel that a life was truly taken, not simply a process halted. 
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 khomeini advocates the view that there was a series of twelve islamic leaders (the twelve imams) who are free of error or sin. this makes him a heretic. wow, you're quicker to point out heresy than the church in the middle ages. seriously though, even the sheiks at al-azhar don't claim that the shi'ites are heretics. most of the accusations and fabrications about shi'ites come out of saudi arabia from the wahabis. for that matter you should read the original works of the sunni imams (imams of the four madhabs). the teacher of at least two of them was imam jafar sadiq (the sixth imam of the shi'ites). although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around about the shi'ites (esp. since the revolution), there are also many good works by shi'ites which present the views and teachings of their school. why make assumptions and allegations (like people in this group have done about islam in general) about shi'ites. 
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 how about people who are not religous? take the inner city. there are many people that care little for religion. lot of crime. lot of murder. this is the other end- lack of religion- that allows wrong to i lived in tokyo for a year and a half, and one of the many reasons why i intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can walk anywhere (and i mean *anywhere*) at any time of day or night and not feel uneasy, even if one's from an ethnic minority as i was. clues for bobby (why do i bother?): (i) tokyo is a city, and inner tokyo is an inner city; (ii) there is a negligible level of violent crime, and a street murder will be a lead item on *national* tv news; (iii) the population is almost universally atheistic. next time i go for a stroll around beirut at night, i'll let you know how it compares. bobby mozumder simon clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk department of computer science tel (+44) 203 523296 university of warwick fax (+44) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al, u.k. 
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 sorry, it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is the reason why torture was introduced outside the romanic countries at the end of the middle ages. in other words, the holy mother church which is lead infallibly by the holy ghost has spread it. the roman catholic church claims to be lead by the "infallable" pope. that's why she (the rc church) has done so many wicked things to xtians and non-believers alike. the rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based on the claim above. the dogma about the pope is of jesuitic origin and has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century. you're right. thanks for enlightening me. 
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 [this raymond smullyan quote is too big for a .sig, but deserves posting imho.] to big for a .sig? no way! keith " home of the billdboard .sig files " ryan private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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 the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. ... there's a difference between believing in the existence of an entity, and loving that entity. god _could_ show me directly that he exists, and i'd still have a free choice about whether to love him or not. so why doesn't he? kevin anthoney kax@cs.nott.ac.uk don't believe anything you read in .sig files. kevin makes a good point here, and when that theists miss all-too-often. that is, the belief in a diety is not necessarily coupled with agreement/love of that diety, so really they have yet another bit of convincing to do just beyond i guess the standard argumet goes something like: well, once you believe in god, you know god is love, and you will choose to love him-- if it wasnt so widely accepted and asserted it'd be laughable... best regards, --adam | adam john cooper | "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings | | (612) 696-7521 | who thought themselves good simply because | | acooper@macalstr.edu | they had no claws." | | "understand one another? i fear i am beyond your comprehension." --gandalf | 
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 i found this little gem, i don't know if anyone has any interest/comments... hi everyone, i'm a commited christian that is battling with a problem. i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' you fools, do you still think that just believing is enough?' now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god, according to romans that person is still saved by there faith. but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him (i.e. doesn't know him - condemned) so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn't make any attempt to live by the bible. now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do) as taught in romans, but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being 'spat-out' can anyone help me, this really bothers me.-- in christ, --adam | adam john cooper | "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings | | (612) 696-7521 | who thought themselves good simply because | | acooper@macalstr.edu | they had no claws." | | "understand one another? i fear i am beyond your comprehension." --gandalf | 
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 : > i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league : > schools in which it was reported that a third of the students : > indentified themselves as atheists. this is a lot higher than among the : > general population. i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are? : > is it because they are more intelligent? younger? is this the wave of : > the future? what is the figure for the general population? the last i heard, 25% of americans believe in reincarnation. can somebody quote a stat? i don't have a stat, but, unfortunately, i did read generally that both smoking and belief in the supernatural (occultish garbage) is on the rise here. : i would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which : ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus.... : so, in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to : atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in : their beliefs over four years. there is nowhere to run.... :-) funny. in my country, it works the other way round. univ life is v. v. stressful for most people (remember, we're an asian population) & xtians like to prey on these people. there is nowhere to run from them ...... :-< this is very interesting. i thing the principle is sort of the same though: all "philosophical" ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during college years. whether the idea is christian or atheist doesn't always matter. but i'd like to say it's because atheists are more intelligent :) the unenlightened one tan chade meng | the wise man tells his wife that he understands her. singapore | cmtan@iss.nus.sg | the fool tries to prove it. --adam | adam john cooper | "verily, often have i laughed at the weaklings | | (612) 696-7521 | who thought themselves good simply because | | acooper@macalstr.edu | they had no claws." | | "understand one another? i fear i am beyond your comprehension." --gandalf | 
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 the bedrock of "spiritual" unreason is the belief that resonant, yet but theology is full of reason even if it is, as we believe, based on false premises etc etc. ill-defined, terms, e.g., "spirit", "transcendental", "mind", "self", "consciousness", "ultimate reality", "soul", "elan vital", etc. have meaning. sadly, adherents of "spiritual" movements are seldom satisfied hold on there: no meaning to "consciousness" or "mind" or "self"?! with this harmless illogicality; they seem inexorably drawn to a belief what illogicality? in "the primacy of the spiritual and transcendental over the material and empirical," i.e., the primacy of pipe dreams, jabberwocky and illusion over facts, science and reason. since when is, for instance, (non-behaviourist) psychology a pipe dream? surely the major purpose of the science of psychology is to understand the workings of the mind. all creatures, all feelings, all thoughts, all perceptions, all processes and all phenomena are manifestations of the mundane, i.e., matter, energy, space and time. those who believe otherwise, albeit some do not supplicate "god", are not atheists. "manifestations of the mundane" sounds rather transcendental to me. in fact "matter", "energy", "space" and "time" are well measured but mysterious does an atheist really have to believe in your reductionism or be cast out as not following the true faith?! richard wilson logica industry ltd 
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 acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu (turin turambar, me department of utter misery) said re. dan schaertel's article [if i followed the quoting right]: as much as anything else you learn. how do you choose what to believe and what not to? i could argue that george washington is a myth. he never lived because i don't have any proof except what i am told. however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him. neat trick uh? how is this? there is nothing more disgusting than christian attempts to manipulate/interpret the old testament as being filled with signs for the coming of christ. every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is autmoatically interpreted as the cross. what a miscarriage of philology. i think it may also be worthwhile pointing out that if we take the appellation `rabbi' seriously then jesus had a full grasp of contemporary `scripture' mat21:42 jesus saith unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures... mat22:29 jesus answered and said unto them, ye do err, not knowing mat22:29 the scriptures, nor the power of god. following from this, he would have been in a wonderful position to fulfil prophesies, and the nt says as much: mat26:54 but how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, mat26:54 that thus it must be? mat26:56 but all this was done, that the scriptures of the mat26:56 prophets might be fulfilled. then all the disciples mat26:56 forsook him, and fled. if the books comprising the referred-to `scripture' had not been accessible then it probably would be a different --tony 
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 hello gang, there have been some notes recently asking where to obtain the darwin fish. this is the same question i have and i have not seen an answer on the net. if anyone has a contact please post on the net or email me. john chadwick johnchad@triton.unm.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53547">
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 darwin fish can be bought from: "join the darwinners (tm) send $6 to receive your official evolving fish.. wherever you want to spread the good news! darwinners, 6671 sunset blvd., ste. 1525, l.a.,ca 90028 the greatest theory ever told!" forty years from now nursing homes will be filled with demented hackers, studying their blank laptop screens nicely placed on knitted quilts to keep their knees warm. -k. mitchum 
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 : bullshit!!! in the gulf massacre, 7% of all ordnance used was "smart." the : rest - that's 93% - was just regular, dumb ol' iron bombs and stuff. have : you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch : was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage? or that a : successful interception of a scud was defined as "the patriot and scud : passed each other in the same area of the sky"? : and of the 7% that was the "smart" stuff, 35% hit. again - try to follow me : here - that means 65% of this "smart" arsenal missed. i used to have full figures on this including the tons of bombs dropped and the number of cluster bomblet munitions used. i had heard the 90% of the laser-guided weapons hit, which is an unprecedented rate of success. 25% of the iron weapons hit, again unprecedented. the following is a rough estimate, but this means of the 80,000 tons of bombs dropped by us aircraft around 56,000 tons *missed*. i'm not sure what proportion of this was dropped of baghdad rather than troop concentrations in iraq and kuwait. much of the tonnage dropped was cluster munitions, as were all the mrls rounds and many of the artillery rounds. napalm and fuel air explosives were also used (remember how we were told that weapons of mass destruction such as fae were very naughty indeed?) 
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 : this figure, is far below all the other figures i have seen. if it : is indeed accurate, then how do you explain the discrepancy between : that figure, and other figures from international organizations? : most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to 70%, which is : still far higher than your 35%. or does your figure say a bomb : missed if the plane took off with it, and the bomb never hit the target, : regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped? such methods : are used all the time to lie with statistics. answering the last sentence, claimed that they had a success rate of 80% without initially explaining, until pressed, that this meant that 80% of the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere, regardless' of whether they had hit the intended target, or indeed anything al all. aaron turner 
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 : >prove it. i have a source that says that to date, the civilian death count : >(er, excuse me, i mean "collateral damage") is about 200,000. : i have _never_ seen any source that was claiming such a figure. please : post the source so its reliability can be judged. this figure would not simply be deaths by bombing, but also death later from disease (the sewer system of baghdad was deliberately targeted) and starvation. i believe (but when i get a copy of the latest research in june or july) that this was the figure proposed in the census bureau report on the matter. the report was suppressed and the cb attempted to sack the author of the report, but failed due to procedural technicality. the author is now on permanent leave. aaron turner 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53557">
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 as requested, here are some addresses of sources of bizarre religious satire and commentary... plus some bijou book reviewettes. loompanics unlimited po box 1197 port townsend, wa 98368. usa. publishers of one of the most infamous mail-order book catalogue in the world. anarchism, discordianism, libertarianism, cryogenics, money-making (legal and illegal), privacy and security, self-defense, and all kinds of other stuff that keeps christians awake at nights. the church of the subgenius po box 140306 dallas, tx 75214. usa. the original end times church for post-human mutants; a high temple for scoffers, mockers and blasphemers. be one of the few to board the x-ist saucers in 1998 and escape space god jhvh-1's stark fist of removal. j.r. "bob" dobbs, god of sales, is waiting to take your money and ordain you. magazines, sick audio cassettes, and assorted offensive cynisacreligious material. periodic lists of addresses of pink religious cults and contact points for the world wierdo network. expect a slow response to mail. only conspiracies are well-organized. you will eventually get what you pay for if you give them some slack. counter productions po box 556 london se5 0rl a uk source of obscure books. a wide-ranging selection; surrealism, anarchism, subgenius, discordianism, robert anton wilson, lovecraftian horror, cyberpunk, forteana, political and social commentary, wilhelm reich, orgone tech, obscure rock music, sf, and so on. send an sae (and maybe a bribe, they need your money) and ask for a catalogue. tell them mathew sent you. i've ordered from these folks three or four times now, and they're about as fast and efficient as you can expect from this sort of operation. forbidden planet various sites in the uk; in particular, along london's new oxford street, just down the road from tottenham court road tube station. mass market oddness. subgenius, robert anton wilson, loompanics, and of course huge quantities of sf. not a terribly good selection, but they're in the high street. reviewette: "loompanics' greatest hits" isbn 1-55950-031-x (loompanics) a selection of articles picked from the books in loompanics' catalogue. subjects include: * christian dispensationalism -- how right-wing christians encouraged the cold war * satanic child abuse myths * religion and censorship plus lots of anarchist and libertarian stuff, situationism, computers and privacy, and so on. guaranteed to contain at least one article that'll offend you -- like, for example, the interview with bradley r. smith, the holocaust revisionist. a good sampling of stuff in a coffee table book. (of course, whether you want to leave this sort of stuff lying around on your coffee table is another matter.) quote: "the fundamentalists leap up and down in apoplectic rage and joy. their worst fantasies are vindicated, and therefore (or so they like to think), their entire theology and socio-political agenda is too. meanwhile, teen-age misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies, classmates, families, friends, even complete strangers, all because they read one of anton lavey's cooks or listened to one too many ac/dc records. the born-agains are ready to burn again, and not just books this time." reviewette: "the book of the subgenius", j.r. dobbs & the subgenius foundation isbn 0-671-63810-6 (simon & schuster) described by 'rolling stone' as "a sick masterpiece for those who can still laugh at the fact that nothing is funny anymore." the official bible of the subgenius church, containing the sacred teachings of j.r. "bob" dobbs. instant answers to everything; causes catalytic brain cell loss in seconds; the secret of total slack; how to relax in the safety of your delusions and pull the wool over your own eyes; nuclear doom and other things to laugh at. quote: "he has been known to answer questions concerning universal truths with screams. with suggestive silence. by peeing down his pants leg. his most famous sermon was of cosmic simplicity: "bob" standing on the stage with his hands in his pockets, smoking, looking around and saying nothing. heated arguments still rage among the monks, often erupting into fatal duels, as towhether the master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period of grace." reviewette: "high weirdness by mail", rev. ivan stang isbn 0-671-64260-x (simon & schuster) an encyclopedia of wierd organizations you can contact by mail. space jesuses, christian vs christian, ufo contactees, new age saps, creationists, flat earthers, white supremacist churches, plus (yawn) csicop, sceptical enquirer and stuff like that. not just a list of addresses, though, as each kook group is ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee. if you like alt.atheism's flame wars, this is the book for you. made me laugh until my stomach ached. revised edition due some time in the next year or two. sample entry: entertaining demons unawares southwest radio church po box 1144 oklahoma city, ok 73101 "your watchman on the wall." another flagellating, genuflecting fundamentalist outfit. their booklet "entertaining demons unawares" exposes the star wars / e.t. / dungeons & dragons / saturday morning cartoon / satanic connection in horrifying detail. left out smurfs, though! i especially liked the bit about wonder woman's antichrist origins. keep in mind that once you send for anything from these people, you'll be on their mailing list for life. reviewette: "the abolition of work", bob black isbn 0-915179-41-5 (loompanics) a selection of bob black's painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts collected into book form. if i were this good i'd be insufferable.(*) probably the only thought-provoking political book that's fun to read. quote: "babble about 'the wages of sin' serves to cover up 'the sin of wages'. we want rights, not rites -- sex, not sects. only eros and eris belong in our pantheon. surely the nazarene necrophile has had his revenge by now. remember, pain is just god's way of hurting you." reviewette: "principia discordia", malaclypse the younger isbn 1-55950-040-9 (loompanics) the infamous discordian bible, reprinted in its entirety and then some. yes, you could ftp the online copy, but this one has all the pictures. explains absolutely everything, including the law of fives, how to start a discordian cabal, and instructions for preaching discordianism to christians. quote: "a discordian is required during his early illumination to go off alone & partake joyously of a hot dog on a friday; this devotive caremony to remonstrate against the popular paganisms of the day: of catholic christendom (no meat on friday), of judaism (no meat of pork), of hindic peoples (no meat of beef), of buddhists (no meat of animal), and of discordians (no hot dog buns)." reviewette: "natural law, or don't put a rubber on your willy", robert anton wilson isbn 0-915179-61-x (loompanics) the author of the illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law, natural morality, objective reality, and other pervasive myths. witty and thought-provoking work from someone who actually seems to know an argument from a hole in the ground. quote: "since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless, those of us of pragmatic disposition simply won't buy such dubious merchandise. [...] maybe -- remotely -- there might be something in such promotions, as there might be something in the talking dogs and the stocks in arabian tapioca mines that w.c. fields once sold in his comedies, but we suspect that we recognize a con game in operation. at least, we want to hear the dog talk or see the tapioca ore before we buy into such deals." all of the books mentioned above should be available from counter productions in the uk, or directly from the subgenius foundation or loompanics unlimited. [ (*) what do you mean i am anyway? ] "dreamed i laid a toaster... daddy caught me in the act. can you take it?" -- devo 
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 the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd. "counterfeit atheists". hmmmm. so, we're just cheap knock-offs of the true atheists. they must be theists in disguise. in any event, we don't _need_ to create religious parodies: just look at some actual religions which are absurd. and now . . . deep thoughts by jack handey. if you go parachuting, and your parachute doesn't open, and your friends are all watching you fall, i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53563">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53563" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i am doing research on atheism, part of which involves field research here on the net. the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group, intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief. i would seriously appreciate it if each and every one of you would fill it out and mail it back to me at mtabbott@unix.amherst.edu. first of all, i've tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways, with varying amounts of detail; it's possible to give succinct answers to most everything, but there's enough here to keep most of you typing for hours, i'm sure. as much detail as you want to give me (i mean it) is great, but it's also important for me to have as broad a base of individuals as possible, so even minimal responses are far better than nothing -- it's a short survey if you just answer the questions without elaboration. secondly, i hope some of the questions don't come off as obnoxious; i know that phrases like "what would convince you of the existence of god" imply that i am a seminary student intent on proving you all to be ignorant godless heathens. in fact, i'm not too sure about the existence of a higher power myself, so my use of "god" is a question of locution rather than ideology -- it's easier than just repeating "a deity or higher power" every time. also, i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like "belief system" although i know some of you might contend that you don't have any beliefs, but are skeptical towards everything. i understand; but you know what i mean. think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across. lastly, thanks! please fill out as much as you can, in as much detail as you can, and send them to me. my research and i thank you. where would you place your beliefs, on the spectrum theism <--> agnosticism <--> weak atheism <--> strong atheism? feel free to elaborate on your specific beliefs. in what, if any, religious tradition were you raised? did you ever believe in the existence of a god? (several of the following questions presume that the answer to this is "yes;" if you've always been an atheist, or at least never a theist, you may have to modify the question/answer somewhat.) how serious was your/your family's involvement? how and when did you start to doubt the tenets you were raised to believe? how and when did your "final break" with your beliefs, if any, occur? i realize that this is often more of an ongoing process than an "event" per se; whatever the case, just describe it in whatever detail you wish. what contact with other atheists have you had; before and after (and during) your "conversion" to atheism? (certainly your involvement with alt.atheism counts -- how have net discussions affected your beliefs?) to what extent do you think other atheists have influenced you in your beliefs? did you come by your beliefs through discussion, through independent means, or by some combination of the two or other means? are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means (proofs of the non-existence of god, etc), or was it perhaps, at least in part, through other means (alienation from mainstream religion, etc)? to what extent do you feel you "understand" the universe through your beliefs? what phenomena of the universe and of human existence (anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs) do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs, and where are they lacking as an explanatory method? what would it take for you to question, or change, your beliefs? what would convince you of the existence of god, what would convince you of the plausibility of god's existence, and so forth? how dynamic are your beliefs -- are they constantly changing; have they stayed more or less the same for some time? are you involved in a career or education in science? to what extent do you think science has influenced your beliefs? (issac asimov claimed that science was the new "secular religion," and that "scientists are, in a very real sense, the new priesthood." do you see the pursuit of science as having a quasi- religious base, or even a religious element?) this survey is intended to get data from a broad range of individuals, but also to help me narrow down the field to a small group of people whose ideas and histories could be very useful to me. would you be willing to have me, on the basis of this survey, write you to find out more about you and your beliefs? if not, fine; your filling out the survey alone is great. thanks again. feel free to contact me if you have any questions about what i'm doing with this data, or if you have anything to say in addition to what i've asked about above. mark abbott mtabbott@unix.amherst.ed 
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 sorry about the delay in responding, due to conference paper deadline panic. [alarming amounts of agreement deleted :-)] i made my statement about ockums razor from my experiences in physics. thanks for info in baysian statistics - very interesting and i didn't know it before. i follow your proof, but i have one questions. we have two hypotheses h and hg - the latter is more "complicated", which by definition means p(h) > p(hg). that ("complicated") isn't in fact where p(h) > p(hg) comes from; it's more the other way around. it's from p(h) = p(hg) + p(hg') where g' is the complement of g and by axiom, p(anything) >= 0, so p(hg') >= 0, so p(h) >= p(hg). in a sense, hg is necessarily more "complicated" than h for any h and g, so i may be splitting hairs, but what i'm trying to say is that irrespective of subjective impressions of how complicated something is, p(h) >= p(hg) holds, with equality if and only if p(hg') = 0. as you point out, it's a very simple matter to show p(x | h) = p(x | hg) ==> p(h | x) > p(hg | x), and thus h is to be preferd to hg. now to say that h is as consistent with the data as hg is to say p(x | h) = p(x | hg). can you elaborate some on this. well, "p(x | a) = p(x | b)" means that x is as likely to be observed if a is operative as it is if b is operative. this implies that observing x does not provide any useful information which might allow us to discriminate between the respective possibilities that a and b are operative; the difference reduces to the difference between the (unknown and unhelpful) prior probabilities p(a) and p(b): p(x | a) = p(x | b) ==> p(a | x) = k p(a), and p(b | x) = k p(b) where k = p(x | a) / p(x) = p(x | b) / p(x). so a and b are "equally consistent with the data" in that observing x doesn't give any pointers as to which of a or b is operative. in the particular case where a = h and b = hg, however, we know that their prior probabilities are ordered by p(h) >= p(hg), although we don't know the actual values, and it's this which allows us to deploy the razor to throw out any such hg. also, in the "real world" it isn't as clear cut and dry it seems to me. we can't always determine whether the equality "p(x | h) = p(x | hg)" is true. that's certainly true, but the particular point here was whether or not a `divine component' actually underlies the prevalence of religion in addition to the memetic transmission component, which even the religious implicitly acknowledge to be operative when they talk of `spreading the word'. now it seems to me, as i've said, that the observed variance in religious belief is well accounted for by the memetic transmission model, but rather *less* well if one proposes a `divine component' in addition, since i would expect the latter to conspire *against* wide variance and even mutual exclusion among beliefs. thus my *personal* feeling is that p(x | hg) isn't even equal to p(x | h) in this case, but is smaller (h is memetic transmission, g is `divine component', x is the variance among beliefs). but i happily acknowledge that this is a subjective impression. btw, my beef with your baysian argument was not a mathematical one - i checked most of your work and didn't find an error and you seem very careful so there probably isn't a "math mistake". i think the mistake is philosophical. but just to make sure i understand you, can please rephrase it in non-technical terms? i think this is a reasonable request - i always try to look for ways of explaining physics to non-physicist. i'm not a baysian statistician (nor any type of statistician), so this would be very helpful. not that i'm a statistician as such either, but: the idea is that both theism and atheism are compatible with all of the (read `my') observations to date. however, theism (of the type with which i am concerned) *also* suggests that, for instance, prayer may be answered, people may be miraculously healed (both are in principle amenable to statistical verification) and that god/s may generally intervene in measurable ways. this means that these regions of the space of possible observations, which i loosely termed "appearances of god/s", have some nonzero probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic. since there is only so much probability available for each hypothesis to scatter around over the observation space, the probability which theism expends on making "appearances of god/s" possible must come from somewhere else (i.e. other possible observations). all else being equal, this means that an observation which *isn't* an "appearance of god/s" must have a slightly higher probability under atheism than under theism. the bayesian stuff implies that such observations must cause my running estimate for the probability of the atheistic hypothesis to increase, with a corresponding decrease in my running estimate for the probability of the theistic hypothesis. sorry if that's still a bit jargonesque, but it's rather difficult to put it any other way, since it does depend intimately on the properties of conditional probability densities, and particularly that the total area under them is always unity. an analogy may (or may not :-) be helpful. say that hypothesis a is "the coin is fair", and that b is "the coin is unfair (two-headed)". (i've used a and b to avoid confusion with h[heads] and t[tails].) p(h | a) = 0.5 } total 1 p(t | a) = 0.5 } p(h | b) = 1 } total 1 p(t | b) = 0 } the observations are a string of heads, with no tails. this is compatible with both a fair coin (a) and a two-headed coin (b). however, the probability expended by a on making possible the appearance of tails (even though they don't actually appear) must come from somewhere else, since the total must be unity, and it comes in this case from the probability of the appearance of heads. say our running estimates at time n-1 are e[n-1](a) and e[n-1](b). the observation x[n] at time n is another head, x[n] = h. the estimates are modified according to p(h | a) e[n](a) = e[n-1](a) * -------- = e[n-1](a) * m p(h) p(h | b) e[n](b) = e[n-1](b) * -------- = e[n-1](b) * 2m p(h) now we don't know p(h), the *actual* prior probability of a head, but the multiplier for e(a) is half that for e(b). this is true every time the coin is tossed and a head is observed. thus whatever the initial values of the estimates, after n heads, we have e[n](a) = m e[0](a) e[n](b) = (2m) e[0](b), and since e[k](a) + e[k](b) = 1 at any time k, you can show that 0.5 < m < 1 and thus 1 < 2m < 2. hence the estimate for the fair-coin hypothesis a must decrease at each trial and that for the two-headed coin hypothesis b must increase, even though both hypotheses are compatible with a string of heads. the loose analogy is between "unfair coin" and atheism, and between "fair coin" and theism, with observations consistent with both. a tail, which would falsify "unfair coin", is analogous to an "appearance of god/s", which would falsify atheism. i am *not* claiming that the analogy extends to the numerical values of the various probabilities, just that the principle is the same. constant observation of no evidence for gods, if evidence for them is at all possible under the respective theisms, constantly increases the notional estimated probability that they don't exist, it's important to draw a distinction between theism that could be supported or not supported by evidence and theism that can't. given a theism for which evidence is in principle not possible, it doesn't make sense to say "lack of evidence" supports the contrary quite so, but this type of theism is what i might call "the g in the hg", in terms of our ockham's razor discussion, and i'd bin it on those grounds. so it depends upon your conception of this god. if it's a conception like zeus, who happened to come down to earth to "play" quite frequently, then i agree with you - lack of evidence for this conception of god is evidence that it does not exist. but if your conception of god is one that does not make falsifiable predictions (see below on "falsifiable predictions"), then i disagree -- lack of evidence does not support a disbelief. the hypotheses don't have to be falsifiable, and indeed in my `model', the theism isn't falsifiable. i used the phrase "should obverse". given any specific 'x' theism does not make the prediction "p(x | ht) > 0". that's why i used the word "should" - theism makes no predictions about any specific event. i can only say "i believe" that god did such and such after such and such happens, or "i believe god will" do such and such. but for any given 'x' i can never, a priori, say p(x | ht) > 0. i can not even say this for the set of all 'x' or some 'x'. this is what don't like about your use of probability. we also have no way of assigning these probabilities - i hold science to positivistic criteria - if someone cannot tell me how to measure, even in principle, p(x | h), then probability is not applicable to hypothesis h. such is the case when h = ht (theistic) and ha (atheistic). for example, p(x | ha) = p(x & ha)/p(ha). what is p(ha)?!? how do i measure it? you don't have to. we don't need, in the above analogy, to know *any* prior probabilities to deduce that the updating multiplier for the fair-coin hypothesis is less than unity, and that the corresponding multiplier for the two-headed coin hypothesis is greater than unity. you don't need to know the initial values of the running estimates either. it's clear that after a large number of observations, p(fair-coin) approaches zero and p(two-headed-coin) approaches unity. all you need to know is whether p(x | ha) is larger than p(x | ht) for observed x, and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain events rendered *possible* (not necessary) under ht which are not possible under ha, and all else is equal. baysian statistics relies upon a series of observations. but what if the hypothesis isn't amenable to observation? and even for statements that are amenable to observation, some observations are not relevant -- a sequence of observations must be chosen with care. i'm curious to know what types of observations x[1],x[2],... you have in mind concerning theism and atheism. any observations you like; it really doesn't matter, nor affect the reasoning, provided that there are some possible observations which would count as "appearances of god/s". examples of this might be a demonstration of the efficacy of prayer, or of the veracity of but any statement about p(x | h) for general x still counts as a prediction of h. if the theism in question, ht, says that prayer may be answered, or that miracles may happen (see my interpretation, quoted again above, of what `god exists' means), then this is a prediction, p(x | ht) > 0 for such x. it's what distinguishes it from the atheist hypothesis ha, which predicts that this stuff does not happen, p(x | ha) = 0 for such x. theism does not make the claim that "p(x | ht) > 0 for such x". or i should say that my "theism" doesn't. maybe i was too quick to say we had a common language. you said that by the existence of god you "mean the notion that the deity described by the bible and by christians *does* interact with the universe as claimed by those agents". i agreed with this. however, i must be careful here. i believe this - i'm not making any claims. maybe i should have changed *does* to *can* - there is an important shift of emphasis. but any way, since i "only" have a belief, i cannot conclude "p(x | ht) > 0 for such x". ok, we'll downgrade "*does* interact" to "*may* interact", which would actually be better since "does interact" implies a falsifiability which we both agree is misplaced. i don't think my theism makes "predictions". maybe i'm not understanding what you mean by "prediction" - could you explain what you mean by this word? i'll explain, but bear in mind that this isn't central; all i require of a theism is that it *not* make the prediction "appearances of god/s will never happen", as does atheism. (before somebody points out that quantum mechanics doesn't make this prediction either, the difference is that qm and atheism do not form a partition.) predictions include such statements as "prayer is efficacious" (implying "if you do the stats, you will find that prayer is efficacious"), or "prayer is *not* efficacious", or "verily i say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." i don't think we have any problems of misunderstanding here. persistent observation of this stuff not happening, *consistent* with ht though it may be, is *more* consistent with ha, as explained in the bayesian stats post. even if ht ("god exists") is unfalsifiable, that's no problem for my argument, other than that you have to let the number of observations go to infinity to falsify it asymptotically. btw, i do not consider an argument that requires an infinite number of observations as valid - or rather that part of the argument is not valid. we, as existing humans, can never make an infinite number of measurments and any conclusion that reilies on this i don't accept as valid. that's fine; i don't claim that theism is false, merely that the [finite number of] observations available to me so far suggest that it is, and that as i continue to observe, the suggestion looks better and better. [renormalization stuff deleted] in the bayesian stats post, i assumed that theism was indeed unfalsifiable in a finite number of observations. here's the relevant quote: $ the important assumption is that there are *some* observations which $ are compatible with the theist hypothesis and not with the atheist $ hypothesis, and thus would falsify atheism; these are what i called $`appearances of god/s', but this need not be taken too literally. any $ observation which requires for its explanation that one or more gods $ exist will count. all other observations are assumed to be compatible $ with both hypotheses. this leaves theism as unfalsifiable, and atheism $ as falsifiable in a single observation only by such `appearances of $ god/s'. here is my problem with this. for something to be falsifiable it must make the prediction that 'x' should not be seen. if 'x' is seen then the hypothesis has been falsified. now, atheism is a word in oposition to something - theism. a theism aserts a belief and an atheism aserts a disbelief. so there are certain atheisms that are certainly falsifiable - just as there are certain theisms that are falsifable (e.g. if my theism asserts the world is only 6,000 years old and that god does not decieve then this has been falsified). however, the atheism that is in oposition to an unfalsifiable theism is also unfalsifiable. i could be wrong on this statment - [...contd] i think you are; an "appearance of god/s" is sufficient to falsify atheism, whereas in general the corresponding theism is unfalsifiable. i'll think more about it. until then, here is a general question. suppse x were unfalsifiable. is not(x) also unfalsifiable? no: by way of a counterexample, let x = "the coin is fair", or more accurately (so that not(x) makes sense) "the two sides of the coin are different". this is unfalsifiable by tossing the coin; even a string of heads is consistent with a fair coin, and you have to go to an infinite number of tosses to falsify x in the limit. its converse is falsifiable, and is falsified when at least one head and at least one tail have appeared. this is partly what's wrong with you baysian argument - which requires observations x[1] ... x[n] to be made. there are simply no such observations that have a truth value in relation to the statement "god exists". now, by use of your symmetry argument, i can understand why someone would say "since the statement 'god does not exist' makes no predictions i will choose not to believe it." but none the less this would be founded on a type of faith - or if you don't like the word faith insert "belief for which there is no falsifiable evidence" instead. i'll assume you meant `god exists' up there at the highlight. but by our agreed definition of "exists", the statement makes predictions as i said above, although it isn't falsifiable in a finite number of observations. actually, i mean 'god does not exist' makes no predictions. oops. sorry. mea culpa. the truth of this statment actually depends upon which god you are refering to. but i can think of some conceptions of god for which it is true. but once again i'm open to the posibility that i could be wrong. so give me some examples of predictions of the statment "god does not exist". here is one that i can think of. if true, then there would be no healing or miricles. but this can in principle never be determined one way or the other. there are cases in which people seem to recover and are healed without the help of a doctor and for no known reason. these situations do in fact happen. they are consistent with a theistic hypothesis, but in no way support such a hypothesis. we agree here. they are not inconsistent with an atheistic hypothesis. i can't think of one "prediction" from 'god does not exist' that isn't of this type. but i might be missing something. "the rapture will not happen on october 28 1992." said rapture would have falsified atheism to my satisfaction had it happened, although its failure to happen does not, of course, falsify any theisms other than those which specifically predicted it. "no phenomenon which requires the existence of one or more gods for its explanation will ever be observed." that about sums the whole thing up. bob singleton bobs@thnext.mit.edu simon clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk department of computer science tel (+44) 203 523296 university of warwick fax (+44) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al, u.k. 
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 [34mand now . . . [35mdeep thoughts[0m [32mby jack handey.[0m [36mif you go parachuting, and your parachute doesn't open, and your friends are all watching you fall, i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming.[0m you fall if it opens, too. gravity: it's not just a good idea; it's the law. dean kaflowitz 
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 : the same works for the horrors of history. to claim that christianity : had little to do with the crusades or the inquisition is to deny the : awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute. what it seems you : are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never : the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that : religion has had no evil impacts on history. that is absurd. until this paragraph i would willingly amend my earlier statements, since your point(s) are well made and generally accurate. this last part though slips into hyperbole. since i've discussed my objections to such generalizations before, i really don't feel i need to do it again. if you haven't seen those posts, ask maddi, she saves everything i write. 
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 |> >so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than |> >bcci. |> >would you care to explain why it was that when i said "i hope an |> >islamic bank is something other than bcci", you called me a childish |> >propagandist. |> yes, sure, because the only obvious reason anyone would make the jump from |> "bcci" to "islamic bank" is by associating islamic banking with muslim |> ownership. but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was *not* an islamic bank. |> and the only reason one would generalize from a _given_ |> islamic bank to _all_ islamic banks is through a stereotype -- one |> x is bad, therefore all x's are bad. but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was *not* an islamic bank. |> next think you know there is a bosnia on tap. but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was *not* an islamic bank. 
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 |> in article <1r79j3$ak2@fido.asd.sgi.com> |> (deletion) |> >so, mr conner. is bobby mozumder a myth, a performing artist, |> >a real moslem. a crackpot, a provocateur? you know everything |> >and read all minds: why don't you tell us? |> as a side note: isn't it telling that one cannot say for sure if |> bobby mozunder is a firm believer or a provocateur? what does |> that say about religious beliefs? i think that's an insightful comment. especially when at the same time we have people like bill "projector" conner complaining that we are posting parodies. 
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 you asked me to look over here, but i was on my way back anyway :-) #[reply to cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (mike cobb)] #>if morals come from what is societally accepted, why follow that? what #>right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally #>mandated morality? pardon the extremism, but couldn't i murder your #>"brother" and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them, was #>doing what felt good, didn't want anyone forcing their morality on me, #>or i don't follow your "morality" ? #i believe that morality is subjective. each person is entitled to his #own moral attitudes. mine are not a priori more correct than someone #elses. this does not mean however that i must judge another on the #basis of his rather than my moral standards. while he is entitled to #believe what his own moral sense tells him, the rest of society is #entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is #offensive to the majority. why? your last statement. why? by which authority? #most criminals do not see their behavior as moral. the may realize that #it is immoral and not care. they are thus not following their own moral #system but being immoral. for someone to lay claim to an alternative #moral system, he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be #internally consistent. why? your last statement. why are these things necessary? and believe me, a belief in terrorism can be both sincere and frighteningly #some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense and #thus may be incapable of behaving morally. while someone like hitler #may have believed that his actions were moral, we may judge him immoral #by our standards. holding that morality is subjective does not mean #that we must excuse the murderer. trouble is, this would sound just fine coming from someone like hitler, too. (i do *not* mean any comparison or offence, david.) try substituting the social minority of your choice for 'sociopath', 'hitler', and 'murderer'. no logical difference. someone like you, vs. someone like hitler. zero sum. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 [reply to tgk@cs.toronto.edu (todd kelley)] in light of what happened in waco, i need to get something of my chest. faith and dogma are dangerous. a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind, whereas a christian cannot, due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion. it is hard for me to understand, but quite a few professional scientists and philosophers are theists. sure, religion has many good qualities. it encourages benevolence and but also intolerance and superstition. i'm not sure that in the balance it is not detrimental. wouldn't it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist? sure would! david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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 i'm not in a position to say, since i know nothing about the situation. that does not, in my estimation, qualify me as having my head up my ass. bob, i never accused you of having your head up your ass! it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass. i was accusing the original poster (benedikt, i believe) of being so impaired. after insult, gregg resorts to lies: could you maybe flesh it out just a bit? or did i miss the full grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism? you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass. i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again. that's was the original answer. while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass, it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not 
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 |>#>#theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. irrational |>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism. (deletion) |theism is correlated with fanaticism. i have neither said that all fanatism |is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. the point is, |theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. one could of course |argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but i just |have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology |to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it. imo, the influence of stalin, or for that matter, ayn rand, invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered. bogus. i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism. the point is that theism is *a* factor. blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more reliable indicators. and the really dangerous people - the sources of fanaticism - are often none of these things. they are cynical manipulators of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing. that's a claim you have to support. please note that especially in the field of theism, the leaders believe what they say. now, *some* brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism, i grant you. to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom. ever read animal farm? that's a straw man. and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it: read what i have written above: not every theism leads to fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. the point is, there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism. gullibility, by the way, is one of them. and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men. interesting that you have nothing better to offer. |>(2) define "irrational belief". e.g., is it rational to believe that |> reason is always useful? |irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. the latter has |been discussed for a long time with charley wingate. one point is that |the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does |not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information. well, there is a glaring paradox here: an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would be irrational. which is it? that's bogus. self reference is not circular. and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed. your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular. the first part of the second statement contains no information, because you don't say what "the beliefs" are. if "the beliefs" are strong theism and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true. the second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it. i've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here. an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy. have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice. and further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived. "i exist" is derived, if you want it that way. further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms. what is it you are trying to say? |compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of |their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational. i can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism? to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have. using the traditonal definition of gods. personal, supernatural entities with objective effects on this world. usually connected to morals and/or the way the world works. |the affinity to fanatism is easily seen. it has to be true because i believe |it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. however, the beliefs say they are |more than a work hypothesis. i don't understand this. can you formalise your argument? person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice. that does not make b true, it is at best a work hypothesis. however, the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis. testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b (already believed) says it is wrong/ a waste of time/ not possible. depending on the further contents of b amalekites/idolaters/protestants are to be killed, this can have interesting effects. answer the question what the absolute set of morals is people agree on like they would agree on a football being a football. 
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 i looked back at this, and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh-poohed. the us has not sold iraq any arms. what about the land mines which have already been mentioned? other countries (like kuwait). information is hard to prove. you are claiming that the us sold information? prove it. [...] information is hard to prove, almost certainly if the us did sell information, then that fact is classified, and you can't prove it. oh, very neat. dismiss everything i say unless i can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt something which you yourself admit i can never prove to your satisfaction. thanks, i'll stick to squaring circles. 
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 the problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable". i would not have any argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with the national defense. but no, they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point-of-view. they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace. <yawn> another right-wing wasp imagining he's an oppressed minority. perhaps camille paglia is right after all. "i would not have any argument or problem with a peace-nik if they [...] stayed out of all conflicts or issues"? i bet you wouldn't. you'd love it. but what makes you think that sitting back, saying nothing about defense issues, and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do with "their ideals"? 
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 did that faq ever got modified to re-define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god, but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god? in a word, yes. 
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 anyway, since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion, i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book? what are your thoughts on it? i bought a copy of the satanic verses when there was talk of the british government banning it. there's nothing interests me in a book more than making it illegal. however, it's still sitting on my shelf unread. perhaps i'll get round to it soon. i've still got a pile of lem, bulgakov and zamyatin to go through; i don't find nearly enough time to read. in fact, there are far more interesting things to do than i can ever find time for; how anyone ever manages to be bored is beyond me. if i didn't have to sleep, maybe i could manage it. atheism: anti-virus software for the mind. 
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 i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view _as i've articulated it above_ (which may not be the true view of khomeini) is from the basic principles of islam. so that the non-muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them. and if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of islam, how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur'an. discussing it here is fine by me. shall we start a new thread called, say, "infallibility in islam" and move the discussion there? i think this should be illuminating to all. let me make a first suggestion. when arabic words, especially technical ones, become of use let us define them for those, especially atheists, to whom they may not be terribly familiar. please also note that though i did initially refer to khomeini as a heretic for what i understood to be a claim -- rejected by you since -- of personal infallibility, i withdraw this as a basis for such a statement. i conditionally retain this reference in regard to khomeini's advocacy of the thesis of the infallibility of the so-called "twelve imams," which is in clear conflict with the qur'an in that it places the twelve imams in a category of behavior and example higher than that of the muhammad, in that the qur'an shows that the prophet was clearly fallible, as well as (it appears, given your abstruse theological statment regarding the "natures" of the twelve imams) placing them in a different metaphysical category than the remainder of humanity, with the possible exception of muhammad, something which verges on the sin of association. as salam a-laikum alaikum wassalam, 
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 #in article <1r0fpv$p11@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> #(deletion) #># point: morals are, in essence, personal opinions. usually #>#(ideally) well-founded, motivated such, but nonetheless personal. the #>#fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question, #>#sometimes even for the same reason, does not make morals objective; it #>#makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question, #>#which can be good for the evolution of a social species. #>and if a "real large lot" (nice phrase) of people agree that there is a #>football on a desk, i'm supposed to see a logical difference between the two? #>perhaps you can explain the difference to me, since you seem to see it #>so clearly. #(rest deleted) #that's a fallacy, and it is not the first time it is pointed out. it's not a fallacy - note the if. if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value (we're not doing ethics yet benedikt), then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial #for one, you have never given a set of morals people agree upon. unlike #a football. further, you conveniently ignore here that there are #many who would not agree on tghe morality of something. the analogy #does not hold. i have, however, given an example of a value people agree on, and explained why. people will agree that their freedom is valuable. i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics - the if assertion above. and that is what i'm talking about, there isn't a point in talking about ethics if this can't be agreed. #one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football, #while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees #with a set of morals you have to give. i'm not doing morals (ethics) if we can't get past values. as i say, the only cogent objection to my 'freedom' example is that maybe people aren't talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable. maybe not, and i want to think about this some, especially the implications of its being true. #further, the above is evidence, not proof. proof would evolve out of testing #your theory of absolute morals against competing theories. garbage. that's not proof either. #the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer #the objections. evidence that you are a preacher. name that fallacy. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53620">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53620" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates. are there sounds like more of the same. gods were used to describe almost everything in the past. as we come to understand the underpinnings of more and more, the less we credit to a god. now, the not-so-well understood elements (at least by the author) includes quarks and tectonic drift. i guess that's better than describing the perceived patterns of stars in the sky as heroes being immortalized by the gods. kinda sounds like old-earth creation--it seems that life did, indeed, evolve from a common ancestor. what caused that initial common ancestor? are we going to hear another debate on causeless events? ;-) explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves, or can everything be quantified, measured, tested, etc.? michael a. cobb frank doss the above stated words are my opinions and do not reflect the opinions, attitudes, or policies of my employer or any affilliated organizations. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53622">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53622" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 #in article <1r3tqo$ook@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> #>#>|>#>#theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. irrational #>#>|>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism. #>#(deletion) #>#>|theism is correlated with fanaticism. i have neither said that all fanatism #>#>|is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. the point is, #>#>|theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. one could of course #>#>|argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but i just #>#>|have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology #>#>|to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it. #>#>imo, the influence of stalin, or for that matter, ayn rand, invalidates your #>#>assumption that theism is the factor to be considered. #>#bogus. i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism. #>#the point is that theism is *a* factor. #>that's your claim; now back it up. i consider your argument as useful #>as the following: belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism. therefore #>belief is *a* factor in fanaticism. true, and utterly useless. (note, this #>is *any* belief, not belief in gods) #tiring to say the least. i have backed it up, read the first statement. i have read it. conspicuous by its absence is any evidence or point. #the latter is the fallacy of the wrong analogy. saying someone believes #something is hardly an information about the person at all. saying someone #is a theist holds much more information. further, the correlation between #theists and fanatism is higher than that between belief at all and fanatism #because of the special features of theistic belief. truth by blatant assertion. evidence? #>#>gullibility, #>#>blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more #>#>reliable indicators. and the really dangerous people - the sources of #>#>fanaticism - are often none of these things. they are cynical manipulators #>#>of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing. #>#that's a claim you have to support. please note that especially in the #>#field of theism, the leaders believe what they say. #>if you believe that, you're incredibly naive. #you, frank o'dwyer, are living in a dream world. i wonder if there is any #base of discussion left after such a statement. as a matter of fact, i think #you are ignorant of human nature. even when one starts with something one does #not believe, one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says. #to give you the benefit of the doubt, prove your statement. the onus of proof is on you, sunshine. what makes you think that theist leaders believe what they say? especially when they say one thing and do another, or say one thing closely followed by its opposite? the practice is not restricted to theism, but it's there for anyone to see. it's almost an epidemic in this country. just for instance, if it is harder for a camel to pass thru' the eye of a needle, why is the catholic church such a wealthy land-owner? why are there churches to the square inch in my country? #>#>now, *some* #>#>brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism, #>#>i grant you. to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned #>#>argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction #>#>of religious freedom. ever read animal farm? #>#that's a straw man. and as usually in discussions with you one has to #>#repeat it: read what i have written above: not every theism leads to #>#fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. the point is, #>#there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism. #>no, some of it comes from features which *some* theism has in common #>with *some* fanaticism. your last statement simply isn't implied by #>what you say before, because you're trying to sneak in "innate features #>of [all] theism". the word you're groping for is "some". #bogus again. not all theism as is is fanatic. however, the rest already #gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and #theism. and further, the specialty of other theistic beliefs allows them #to switch to fanatism easily. it takes just a nifty improvement in the #theology. truth by blatant assertion. #>#gullibility, by the way, is one of them. #>no shit, sherlock. so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism, #>since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have, as opposed #>to the case you are trying to make? #because there is more about theism that the attraction to gullible people #causing the correlation. and the whole discussion started that way by the #statement that theism is meaningfully correlated to fanatism, which you #challenged. indeed i did. as i recall, i asked for evidence. what is the correlation of which you speak? #>#and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw #>#men. interesting that you have nothing better to offer. #>i said it reads like a warm up to that. that's because it's an irrational #>and bogus tirade, and has no other use than creating a nice them/us #>split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either #>side of church walls. #blah blah blah. i am quite well aware that giving everyone their rights #protects me better from fanatics than the other way round. of course, other people are always fanatics, never oneself. your wish to slur all theists seems pretty fanatical to me. #it is quite nice to see that you are actually implying a connection between #that argument and the rise of fanatism. so far, it is just another of your #assertions. so? you can do it. #>#>|>(2) define "irrational belief". e.g., is it rational to believe that #>#>|> reason is always useful? #>#>|irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. the latter has #>#>|been discussed for a long time with charley wingate. one point is that #>#>|the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does #>#>|not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information. #>#>well, there is a glaring paradox here: an argument that reason is useful #>#>based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would #>#>be irrational. which is it? #>#that's bogus. self reference is not circular. and since the evaluation of #>#usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed. #>o.k., it's oval. it's still begging the question, however. and though #>that certainly is allowed, it's not rational. and you claiming to be #>rational and all. #another of your assertions. no proof, no evidence, just claims. hey - i learned it from you. did i do good? #>at the risk of repeating myself, and hearing "we had that before" [we #>didn't hear a _refutation_ before, so we're back. deal with it] : #>you can't use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful. someone #>who thinks reason is crap won't buy it, you see. #that is unusually weak even for you. the latter implies that my proof #depends on their opinion. somehow who does not accept that there are #triangles won't accept pythagoras. wow, that's an incredible insight. #i don't have to prove them wrong in their opinion. it is possible to #show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims #unreliable or even absurd statements to be information. totally circular, and totally useless. #their wish to believe makes them believe. things are judges by their appeal, #and not by their information. it makes you feel good when you believe that #may be good for them, but it contains zillions of possible pitfalls. from #belief despite contrary evidence to the bogus proofs they attempt. truth by blatant assertion. i've seen as many bogus proofs of the non-existence of gods as i have of their existence. #rational systems, by the way, does not mean that every data has to come from #logical analysis, the point is that the evaluation of the data does not #contradict logic. it easily follows that such a system does not allows to #evaluate if its rational in itself. yes, it is possible to evaluate that #it is rational in a system that is not rational by the fallacies of that #system, but since the validity of the axioms is agreed upon, that has as #little impact as the possibility of a demon ala descartes. this just doesn't parse, sorry. #so far it just a matter of consistency. i use ratiional arguments to show #that my system is consistent or that theirs isn't. the evaluation of the nor this. #predictions does not need rationality. it does not contradict, however. #>#your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics #>#and mathematics are therfore circular. #>anybody else think godel was silly? #stream of consciousness typing? what is that supposed to mean? #>#>the first part of the second statement contains no information, because #>#>you don't say what "the beliefs" are. if "the beliefs" are strong theism #>#>and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true. the #>#>second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an #>#>axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is #>#>assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is #>#>used to obtain it. #>#i've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions #>#of god here. #>#an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here #>#is a an often refuted fallacy. have a look at the discussion of the #>#axiom of choice. and further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems #>#out of which they are usually derived. "i exist" is derived, if you want #>#it that way. #>#further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms. #>#what is it you are trying to say? #>that at some point, people always wind up saying "this datum is reliable" #>for no particular reason at all. example: "i am not dreaming". #nope. there is evidence for it. the trick is that the choice of an axiomatic #basis of a system is difficult, because the possibilities are interwoven. #one therefore chooses that with the least assumptions or with assumptions #that are necessary to get information out of the system anyway. i'd like to see this alleged evidence. #one does not need to define axioms in order to define an evaluation method #for usefulness, the foundation is laid by how one feels at all (that's not #how one feels about it). i see. you have no irrational beliefs. but then, fanatics never do, do #>#>|compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of #>#>|their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational. #>#>i can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism? to #>#>say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which #>#>i suspect you do not have. #>#using the traditonal definition of gods. personal, supernatural entities #>#with objective effects on this world. usually connected to morals and/or #>#the way the world works. #>imo, any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational. that does #>not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of #>intelligence. some atheists are also scientists, for example. #they don't use theism when doing science. or it wouldn't be science. please #note that subjective data lend themselves to a scientific treatment as well. #they just prohibit formulating them as objective statements. ergo, nothing is objective. fair enough. #>#>|the affinity to fanatism is easily seen. it has to be true because i believe #>#>|it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. however, the beliefs say they are #>#>|more than a work hypothesis. #>#>i don't understand this. can you formalise your argument? #>#person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice. that does not make #>#b true, it is at best a work hypothesis. however, the content of b is that #>#it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis. testing or evaluating #>#evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b (already believed) #>#says it is wrong/ a waste of time/ not possible. depending on the further #>#contents of b amalekites/idolaters/protestants are to be killed, this can #>#have interesting effects. #>peculiar definition of interesting, but sure. now show that a belief #>in gods entails the further contents of which you speak. why aren't my #>catholic neighbours out killing the protestants, for example? maybe they #>don't believe in it. maybe it's the conjunction of "b asserts b" and #>"jail/kill dissenters" that is important, and the belief in gods is #>entirely irrelevant. it certainly seems so to me, but then i have no #>axe to grind here. #the example with your neighbours is a fallacy. that *your* neighbours don't #says little about others. and there were times when exactly that happened. nope, it's not a fallacy. it just doesn't go to the correlation you wish to see. #and tell me, when it is not irrelevant, why are such statements about #amalekites and idolaters in the holy books? please note that one could #edit them out when they are not relevant anymore. because gods don't err? #what does that say about that message? excuse me - the holy books? #and how come we had theists saying genocides ordered by god are ok. a god #is the easiest way to excuse anything, and therefore highly attracting to #fanatics. not to mention the effect interpretation by these fanatics can #have on the rest of the believers. happens again and again and again. a god is neither the easiest way to excuse anything, nor the only way. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53625">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53625" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i can (and do) take religious writings as a metaphor for life. i do this with all sorts of fiction, from beowolf to deep space nine. the idea is to not limit yourself to one book, screen out the good stuff from what you read, and to remember that it is all just a story. you sound buddist to me :^) brian /-|-\ 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53627">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53627" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 well, suppose a probe emitting radiation at a constant frequency was sent towards a black hole. as it got closer to the event horizon, the red shift would keep increasing. the period would get longer and longer, but it would never stop. an observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon. the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing, but it wouldn't vanish. exp(-t) never quite reaches zero. that's kind of what i meant. to be more precise, given any observer, in any single position outside the event horizon, would that observer ever in any way, be able to detect the probe having crossed the event horizon? yes, unless the observer is at rest with respect to the singularity at infinite distance away. but an observer on a close approach to the bh will see the particle go in in finite time. don't forget to sing: they say there's a heaven for those who will wait some say it's better, but i say it ain't i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53628">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53628" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently, has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp? if this idea hasn't been followed up, does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen? i think that its a great idea. should we start a petition or something? i'm sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov's atheism. do we have any atheists on stamps now? mark schnitzius schnitzi@eola.cs.ucf.edu university of central florida 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53629">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53629" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 nah. i will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists have up their sleeves. whatever i might have suspected is actually quite riddle me this. if a god(s) exist why on earth should we grovel? why on earth should we give a damm at all? what evidence do you have that if such a creature(s) exist it deserves anything beyond mild admiration or sheer hatred for what it/they have done in the past (whichever god(s) you care to pick). that is assuming any records of their actions are correct. religon offers a bliss bubble of self contained reality which is seperate from the physical world. any belief system can leave you in such a state and so can drugs. god(s) are not a requirement. only if you remove such useless tappestry can you build a set of morals to build a society upon. it is that or keep on exterminating those who don't believe (or converting them). new viruses: right to life virus: won't allow you to delete a file, regardless of how old it is. if you attempt to erase a file, it requires you to first see a counselor about possible alternatives. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53631">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53631" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 |> this is fascinating. atheists argue for abortion, prove it. i am an atheist. it doesn't mean i am for or against abortion. |> defend homosexuality |> as a means of population control, an obvious effect of homosexuality is non-procreation. that, unlike your statement, is a fact. please prove that (a) homosexuality is defended as means of population control, (b) being atheist causes you to hold these beliefs. i defend homosexuality because (a) what people do with their bodies is none of my business (b) i defend the equal rights of all humans. do you? |> insist that the only values are |> biological define values. prove your statement. |> something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in |> this case means atheists i suppose. prove your statement. electrons are waves. electrons are particles. i believe in both. i have physical proof of both. i have no proof of god(tm) only an ancient book. that is not indicative of the existence of a being with omnipotence or omnipresence. and, by your own argument, christians don't exist. |> i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an |> excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital |> punishment, i'm sorry but the logic escapes me. |> and why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the |> propriety of killing or of punishment? what is the basis of the |> ecomplaint? first of all, your earlier statements have absolutely nothing to do with your question. why did you post them? to show that athiests, besides not existing (your view), are more humane than christians/other secondly i am very much for the control of population growth. the logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance of contraception. but of course, this is 'outlawed' (sometimes literally) by religion since if it can't create more followers, it will die. |> bill | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53633">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53633" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be : prepared for your eternal damnation!!! did someone leave their terminal unattended again? holy temple of mass $ >>> slack@ncsu.edu <<< $ "my used underwear consumption! $ $ is legal tender in po box 30904 $ bbs: (919) 782-3095 $ 28 countries!" raleigh, nc 27622 $ warning: i hoard pennies. $ --"bob" probably not! the jesus freak's post is probably jsn104@psuvm. penn state is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers. i use to go there *vomit* and it was the reason i left. they even had a group try to stop playing rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic. kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part....except the liberal arts departments...they are the safe havens. rock music in the dining 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53634">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53634" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 rh> from: house@helios.usq.edu.au (ron house) rh> newsgroups: alt.atheism rh> organization: university of southern queensland first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it rh> i _know_ i shouldn't get involved, but... :-) rh> [bit deleted] the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. [rest of rant deleted] this is a standard argument for fundies. can you spot the falicy? the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed. so far, they have not been able to offer real proof of that i just thought it necessary to help defend the point that jesus existed. guys: jesus existed. if he didnt, then you have to say that socrates didnt exist cuz he, like jesus, has nothing from his hands that have survived. only plato and others record his existance. many others record jesus' existance, including the babylonian talmud. sorry guys, the argument that jesus may not have existed is a dead point now. he did. whether he was god or whether there is a god is a completely different story, however. most of them try it using the (very) flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it, but those writers use very flawed sources. (if they are real sources at all, some are not.) when will they ever learn to do real research, instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores. rh> righto, dan, try this one with your cornflakes... rh> the book says that muhammad was either a liar, or he was rh> crazy ( a modern day mad mahdi) or he was actually who he rh> said he was. some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as rh> follows. who would die for a lie? wouldn't people be able rh> to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and rh> kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh> son-in-law made the sun stand still. call me a fool, but i rh> believe he did make the sun stand still. rh> niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation rh> be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rh> rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh> mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see this right rh> away. rh> therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have rh> been the real thing. nice rebutal! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53638">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53638" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 [...] actually, i rather like your idea. perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed (or maybe missiled) washington when the us invaded nicaragua, grenada, panama, vietnam, mexico, hawaii, or any number of other places. wait a minute, doug. i know you are better informed than that. the us has never invaded nicaragua (as far as i know). we liberated grenada "liberate" is the way an invader describes an invasion, including, if i'm not mistaken, the iraqi liberation of kuwait. never invaded nicaragua? only with more word games: can you say "send in the marines?" so if you mean by the word "invaded" some sort of military action where we cross someone's border, you are right 5 out of 6. but normally "invaded" carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation. (if some nation "invades" the u.s. virgin islands, would they be invading the virgin islands or the u.s.?) so from this point of view, your score falls to 2 out of 6 (mexico, panama). oh, good: word games. if you let the aggressor pick the words, there's scarcely ever been a reprehensible military action. what's a "peace-nik"? is that somebody who *doesn't* masturbate over "guns'n'ammo" or what? is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik? no, it's someone who believes in "peace-at-all-costs". in other words, a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia, but poland too if it could have averted the war. and one who would allow hitler to wipe all *all* jews, slavs, and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone. that's a convenient technique, much seen on alt.atheism: define those who disagree with you according to a straw-man extreme that matches virtually nobody. "is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik," you ask? well, it depends on what your values are. if you value life over liberty, peace over freedom, then i guess not. but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself; if you'd rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant's heel, then yes, it's "bad" to be a peace-nik. very noble and patriotic. i'm sure the fine young americans who carpet-bombed iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon, destroyed iraq's sewer and water infrastructure from the safety of the sky or further, or who bulldozed other iraqi infantry into their trenches [or more importantly the commanders who ordered them to] were just thrilled to be risking death (if not risking it by much) in the defense of the liberty of ... well, wealthy kuwaitis. can't have those oil-fields under a tyrant's heel if that tyrant is antagonistic to us interests... the problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable". i would not have any argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with the national defense. but no, they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point-of-view. having pigeon-holed "peace-niks" (in this context, "people who disagree with me about the conduct of the gulf war") into "peace-at-all-cost-hitler-supporting-genocide-abetting-wimps", you can now express righteous indignation when "they" refuse to fit this mold and question the conduct of the war on legitimate terms. how dare they! they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace. (what rank hypocrisy!) yes, hypocrisy indeed! those violent peace-niks! (care to list an example here?) all to stop we "warmongers" who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants, and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense. wow: instant '80's nostalgia! [of course, "peace-nik" itself is a '50's cold war derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism with godless pinko communists]. yes indeed, i felt my freedoms mightily threatened by iraq... jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53641">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53641" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 : at the risk of beginning a cascade, i'll start with a possibly cheesy : good 'ol uhmericun: : "our shield is freedom" or, considering what our government has been doing for the past 50 years, perhaps this would be more appropriate: "100% debt" holy temple of mass $ >>> slack@ncsu.edu <<< $ "my used underwear consumption! $ $ is legal tender in po box 30904 $ bbs: (919) 782-3095 $ 28 countries!" raleigh, nc 27622 $ warning: i hoard pennies. $ --"bob" 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53644">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53644" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i'm sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov's atheism. do we have any atheists on stamps now? due to a discussion on this group some time ago, the theists would more likely take an asimov quote out of context and paint him as the biggest bible thumpin', god fearin', atheist hatin' christian you ever laid eyes on. right up there with einstein. bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53645">
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 rapture - october 28, 1992 what to do in case you miss the rapture i. stay calm and do not panic your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred is to panic. but to do so is absolutely useless now. if you had wanted to get right with god before the rapture, you could have, but you chose to wait. now your only chance is to stay on this earth and to endure to the end of the tribulation. "but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - matthew 24:13 ii. realize you are now living during the great tribulation the great tribulation is a seven year period starting from the time of the rapture until christ's second coming. also know as "the time of jacob's (israel's) trouble" (jere 30:7) and "daniel's seventieth week" (dan 9), this period will be unparalleled in trouble and horror. iii. gather as many bibles as you can and hide them soon after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community (the revived roman empire), bibles will be confiscated and owning a bible will be tantamount to treason. the bible, however, will be your most valuable possession during the tribulation. iv. read the bible like you have never read it before in your life since all of your bibles may be confiscated, even if you are careful, it is imperative that you read the word until you memorize whole passages and can quote them. it is especially important to read daniel, luke 21, matthew 24, revelation, and amos, for these books describe the events you can expect to unfold before you. v. pray like you have never prayed before in your life pray until the power of god comes strongly upon you - pray and pray and pray. only by reading the word and praying will you gain the spiritual strength to be able to withstand the torture you may have to endure for the sake of christ. vi. do not take the mark at any cost - even in fit means you and your loved ones die as martyrs after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community, he will institute a world economic system, designed so that you cannot buy, sell, or eat unless you take his mark or the number of his name. money will be useless. "and he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. here is wisdom. let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: his number is 666" - revelation 13:16-18. the antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter in all of humanity. think of the various ways people have been tortured and killed in the past, such as the holocaust. [or maybe the crusades? -m] you cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the antichrist's rule; it will be much worse than anything in history (matt 24:21) "...i saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of god and for the testimony which they held. and a white robe was given to each of them: and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of the fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." revelation 6:9, 11. his targets will be jews and christians who do not worship his image or take the mark on their forehead or right hadn/ "...and i saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to jesus and for the word of god, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on the hands." - revelation 20:4. he will use every form of torture and humiliation in order to force you to renounce christ. nor will he hesitate to use your loved ones against you, even your children, torturing and killing them in front of you so that you will be tempted to take the mark. if you take the mark or worship the antichrist or his image, however, you will be consigned to the second death, which is the lake of fire. [sung about so eloquently by johnny cash...-m] you cannot be redeemed. it is better to endure torture for a short while and gain eternal life then [sic] to endure eternal torment in the ring^h^h^h^h lake of fire. "...if anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink the wine of the wrath of god, which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation. an [sic] he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb." -revelation 14:9-10 [and probably in the presence of season-ticket holders; special hats given to the first 5,000 at the stadium --m] vii. set a plan in motion for survival although you may not be able to hide from the antichrist's government until the end of the tribulation, all of the time you gain in hiding is important for your spiritual growth and strengthening, since only those who are extremely strong in christ can suffer and die for his sake. the first thing to do is move out of the city and into a rural or mountainous area, for the antichrist's control will come last to the least populated areas. take a good radio or tv with you so that you can stay attuned to events and discern the time schedule of the tribulation. ["as you can see on the weather map, heavy currents of tribulation will sweep into our area by daybreak. expect delays on i-95 outbound, and perhaps school closings" --m] store water and food, because you will not be able to purchase anything without the mark. water in lakes and streams will be polluted by radioactive waste from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood. [get a good water filter. --m] bring different types of clothing for all seasons, as well as flashlights, batteries, generators, and first aid supplies. in short, learn how to survive and live off the land as the pioneers did. viii. trust no one there will be secret agents everywhere, spying for the antichrist's government. be on the lookout. [perot supporters take note --m] ix. watch for the antichrist it is important to realize who the antichrist is and what he is up to, for he will deceive many into thinking that he is a great world leader who will bring peace and prosperity to a world hungry for it. we can infer from daniel 11 certain characteristics of this man. popular during the first three and a half years of the tribulation, he will dominate the airwaves. he will be physically appealing, highly intelligent, with christ-like charisma and personality. an international politician, military tactician and economic expert, his word will be peace; he will make a treaty with the jews, which he will break after three and a half years. he will have such supernatural power that a mortal wound to his head will be healed. even the very elect will be deceived. if you do not pray and read the bible, you too will be deceived. [dominate the airwaves? perhaps howard stern or rush limbaugh...-m] the antichrist will have a companion, the false prohphet [sic], who will make an image in the likeness of the antichrist and cause it to speak. all who refuse to worhsip [sic] the image will be killed. the final three and a half years will be absolutely insane, with demonized spirits everywhere. x. do not give up hope! the seven years of tribulation will end with the triumphant return of christ. the antichrist will be defeated. be steadfast and endure, and you will be rewarded greatly in heaven. start reading the bible and praying fervently now. the salvation of your sould depends upon it. determine that, come what may, you will not take the mark or worship the antichrist. you still have a chance to be saved or remain saved, but this time you will have to be "faithful unto death." may god find you ready in the hour of his glorious return! mike cluff * "christianity is stupid. v22964qs@ubvms or mike%luick@ubvms * give up." -negativland ub language perception laboratory * bob beauchaine bobbe@vice.ico.tek.com they said that queens could stay, they blew the bronx away, and sank manhattan out at sea. 
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 the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd. you don't need any counterfeit athiest's myth to make religion appear absurd. you need only read any of friendly christian bill conner's posts. jim halat halat@bear.com bear-stearns --whatever doesn't kill you will only serve to annoy you-- nyc i speak only for myself 
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 standard groups (sci, soc, talk) must conform to stricter rules when being established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will cease to exist. these groups also reach more sites on usenet than alt groups. i already posted my opinion to mathew's suggestion, which was that alt.atheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from fundies, and "elevating" its status to a standard group (and consequently, the volume of such postings) could make it unreadable. i tend to agree. i came here when it first started and watched it grow from the roots on talk.religion.misc. it seemed to take a while for enough atheists to come forward to get past the "let's trash xians" and such. now there's a stable core, and frankly there's a feeling that this is _our_ group. if we go mainstream, we're going to be in a lot more places. and every fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find jeesus! and warn us that we're all going to hell. want to see what we'll get? go real alt.fan.brother-jed and imagine that those imbecilic tirades will be here. all the time. every other post. i'm being selfish. i find i really learn a lot here and the s/n isn't too bad. the browns and the boobys are a distraction, but they are few enough that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them. but i greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping level of the conners of the world. dewey henize sys/net admin risc hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637 
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 is it just me, or has this part gotten beyond useful? gregg is not, as i understand his posts, giving any support to the bounty on rushdie's life. if that's correct, end of one point... gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most westerners don't accept. his comments about islamic law i think make a great deal of sense to him, and are even making a _little_ sense to me now - if a person is a member of a group (religion or whatever) they bind themselves to follow the ways of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum. the big bone of contention here that i'm picking up is that in the west we have secular governments that maintain, more or less, a level of control and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups. i think the majority of us reading this thread are in tune (note - i didn't say "in agreement") with the idea that you are finally responsible to the secular government, and within that to the group or groups a person may have chosen. with that in mind, it not possible under secular law ("legally" as most people would define the term) to hold a person to a particular group once they decide to separate from it. only if the secular authorities agree that there is a requirement of some sort (contractual, etc) is there any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past group member. a religion can, and often does, believe in and require additional duties of a group member. and it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties in many ways - ostracism is common for example. but the limit comes when the enforcement would impose unwanted and/or unaccepted onus on a person _in conflict with secular law_. this is the difference. in a theocracy, the requirements of the secular authorities are, by definition, congruent with the religious authorities. outside a theocracy, this is not _necessarily_ true. religious requirements _may_ coincide or may not. similiarly, religious consequences _may_ or may not coincide with secular consequences (if any). dewey henize sys/net admin risc hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637 
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 die for a lie? wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? i light of yesterday's events in waco, texas i guess the answer to your questions are very obvious. if you think waco is just one example think back to 1972 in jonestown where more than 900 people died for a lie. deletions... correction. i think it was 1978. also, contrary to earlier belief, it is now widely accepted that not all committed suicide, but were actually killed. in the end, they did die for a lie, but some not out of conviction alone. thought i try to make this point clear. disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way. f. a. karner aix technical support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com 
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 welcome. i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you). your have been awarded the nickname of "buckminster." so the next time you post an article, sign with your nickname like so: dave "buckminster" fuller. thanks again. jim "humor means never having to say you're sorry" copeland of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?). since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here! if the first rule of humor is never having to say you're sorry then the second rule must be never having to explain yourself. few things are worse that a joke explained. in spite of this, and because of requests for me to post my list o' nicknames, i must admit that no such list exists. it was simply a plot device, along with me being the keeper o' the list, to make the obvious play on the last name of fuller and to advance the idea that such a list should be made. i assumed that the ol' timers would recognize it for what it is. nevertheless, how about a list o' nicknames for alt.atheism posters? if you think of a good one, just post it and see if others like it. we could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like bobby or jim "d'oh! i broke the second rule of humor" copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part | -- sting, his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse | nothing 
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 add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death (special cell block, years of court costs, extra guards...) and the benefits of the death penalty entirely disappear. that's because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death overrides the benefit of all the others. obviously it's tragic, but it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty. if we went to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time (because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect), then there is no way to win the war. yes. fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power, and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil^h^h^hkuwait. we won the war, hurrah hurrah! the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media. the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century! this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently. the idea that "hundreds of thousands" of iraqi citizens died is ludicrous. not even "hundreds of thousands" of iraqi soldiers died, and they were the ones being targeted! or do you think that the us and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim iraqi civilians? either the smart bombs didn't hit their targets (and we know they did), or they were targeting civilian targets (!) which is hardly condusive to destroying iraq's military potential. the military mission planners are not fools, they know they have to hit *military* targets to win a war. hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you, not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their tyrant-dictator. ok, so some innocent people died. yes, maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing along that road didn't need to be bombed to bits. perhaps that kid with half his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren't entirely guilty. but it's worth the death of a few innocents to save the oil^h^h^hlives of the kuwaiti people, isn't it? after all, the iraqis may not have had a chance to vote for saddam, but they showed their acceptance of his regime by not assassinating him, right? all that surrendering and fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy. we were entirely within our rights to bomb 'em just in case, without finding out if they were how about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in ww2? i don't hear you bemoaning them! war is never an exact science, but with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties. sometimes mistakes are made; targets are misidentified; innocents die. that's war the way it really is. but the alternative, to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth like it's one big rummage sale, grabbing everything they can get is worse. like patrick henry said some 217 years ago, "i know not what course others may take -- but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" war is always the price one must be willing to pay if one wishes to stay free. the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime, but the legal shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what it should be. hence the question is, do we instate the death penalty as it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of it entirely? yes, let's reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be. all that shit about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice. let's give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty, and save ourselves the expense of all those lawyers. think of the knock-on benefits, too. la would never have had to spend so much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops had been allowed to do their job properly. a quick bullet through the head of rodney king and another for the cameraman, and everyone would have been saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense. after all, if the police decide a man's guilty, that ought to be enough. the fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect over imprisonment, well, that's entirely irrelevant. mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here. you come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although i feel sure that was not your intent. so the iraqi war was wrong, eh? i'm sure that appeasement would have worked better than war, just like it did in ww2, eh? i guess we shouldn't have fought ww2 either -- just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg. how about all the poor french who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent? we should have just let hitler take over europe, and you'd be speaking german instead of english right now. tyrants like hussein *have* to be stopped. his kind don't understand diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun. my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into baghdad, so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people's sacrifice (not to mention the 357 americans who died) was for naught. liberating kuwait was a good thing, but wiping hussein off the map would've been better! and as for poor, poor rodney king! did you ever stop and think *why* the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"? those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape. but the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and i have not seen. when one makes a judgment without the benefit of a trial where evidence can be presented on both sides, one has simply lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice, a state-of-mind which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against, but instead tends to support in the case against the policemen. law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused, whether they be criminals or cops. one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict. anyone else is simply succumbing to verbal vigilantism. jim b. 
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 |> (great respect or love for a particular person does not equal a form of |> "theism".) |> fred rice |> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au hmm. what about jesus? sure, a person could have great respect for jesus and yet be an atheist. (having great respect for jesus does not necessarily mean that one has to follow the christian [or muslim] interpretation of his life.) fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 i replied to this query via e-mail, but i think there are some issues that are worth discussing in public. i am doing research on atheism, part of which involves field research here on the net. the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group, intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief. i would recommend you to take a look at 1) your dictionary 2) alt.atheism faq files to notice that atheism is _not_ a belief system, and what is common to all atheists is not a belief, but a _lack of belief in deities_. i cannot imagine how anyone could do research on atheism without paying careful attention to this issue. first of all, i've tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways, with varying amounts of detail; it's possible to give succinct answers to most everything, but there's enough here to keep most of you typing for hours, i'm sure. imho, this is a poor method to do any real survey, although i'm sure the replies might keep you amused for hours. also, i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like "belief system" although i know some of you might contend that you don't have any beliefs , but are skeptical towards everything. i understand; but you know what i mean. think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across. no, i do _not_ know what you mean. if you are surveying our individual philosophies, fine, but that's not strictly atheism. atheism is not just another, godless version of the theistic explanations for life, the universe and everything. it is not a belief system, and it could hardly be called a philosophical system. once more: atheism is characterised by lack of belief in deities. do not twist the meaning, or assume that we have some kind of philosophy we all agree on. some comments on your questions: what contact with other atheists have you had; before and after (and during) your "conversion" to atheism? (certainly your involvement with alt.atheism counts -- how have net discussions affected your beliefs?) i would also like to hear more about this. have we been able to 'convert' are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means (proofs of the non-existence of god, etc), or was it perhaps, at least in part, through other means (alienation from mainstream religion, etc)? this question contains a contradiction in terms. _beliefs_ cannot be acquired rationally - if they could, they would not be beliefs! you also seem to have rather strange ideas of how people become atheists - those who are alienated from religion do not necessarily become atheists, they just think very little about religion. it seems it requires a considerable time of honest inquiry to find out that religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities. those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question quite odd - how can lack of belief be acquired? when did i acquire lack of belief in the easter bunny? (i did believe in santa, though ;-)) to what extent do you feel you "understand" the universe through your beliefs? what phenomena of the universe and of human existence (anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs) do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs, and where are they lacking as an explanatory method? this question does not make any sense, since atheism does not deal with these issues - it is not a worldview, or a philosophy, or a belief system. sigh, why haven't i seen a good, well-thought survey in the usenet for three years... and what is the point of doing surveys in the net, anyway? just to abstract some opinions? ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 #in article <1r0sn0$3r@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> #>|>#>#theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. irrational #>|>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism. #(deletion) #>|theism is correlated with fanaticism. i have neither said that all fanatism #>|is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. the point is, #>|theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. one could of course #>|argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but i just #>|have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology #>|to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it. #>imo, the influence of stalin, or for that matter, ayn rand, invalidates your #>assumption that theism is the factor to be considered. #bogus. i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism. #the point is that theism is *a* factor. that's your claim; now back it up. i consider your argument as useful as the following: belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism. therefore belief is *a* factor in fanaticism. true, and utterly useless. (note, this is *any* belief, not belief in gods) #>gullibility, #>blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more #>reliable indicators. and the really dangerous people - the sources of #>fanaticism - are often none of these things. they are cynical manipulators #>of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing. #that's a claim you have to support. please note that especially in the #field of theism, the leaders believe what they say. if you believe that, you're incredibly naive. #>now, *some* #>brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism, #>i grant you. to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned #>argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction #>of religious freedom. ever read animal farm? #that's a straw man. and as usually in discussions with you one has to #repeat it: read what i have written above: not every theism leads to #fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. the point is, #there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism. no, some of it comes from features which *some* theism has in common with *some* fanaticism. your last statement simply isn't implied by what you say before, because you're trying to sneak in "innate features of [all] theism". the word you're groping for is "some". #gullibility, by the way, is one of them. no shit, sherlock. so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism, since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have, as opposed to the case you are trying to make? #and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw #men. interesting that you have nothing better to offer. i said it reads like a warm up to that. that's because it's an irrational and bogus tirade, and has no other use than creating a nice them/us split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either side of church walls. #>|>(2) define "irrational belief". e.g., is it rational to believe that #>|> reason is always useful? #>|irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. the latter has #>|been discussed for a long time with charley wingate. one point is that #>|the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does #>|not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information. #>well, there is a glaring paradox here: an argument that reason is useful #>based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would #>be irrational. which is it? #that's bogus. self reference is not circular. and since the evaluation of #usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed. o.k., it's oval. it's still begging the question, however. and though that certainly is allowed, it's not rational. and you claiming to be rational and all. at the risk of repeating myself, and hearing "we had that before" [we didn't hear a _refutation_ before, so we're back. deal with it] : you can't use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful. someone who thinks reason is crap won't buy it, you see. #your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics #and mathematics are therfore circular. anybody else think godel was silly? #>the first part of the second statement contains no information, because #>you don't say what "the beliefs" are. if "the beliefs" are strong theism #>and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true. the #>second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an #>axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is #>assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is #>used to obtain it. #i've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions #of god here. #an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here #is a an often refuted fallacy. have a look at the discussion of the #axiom of choice. and further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems #out of which they are usually derived. "i exist" is derived, if you want #it that way. #further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms. #what is it you are trying to say? that at some point, people always wind up saying "this datum is reliable" for no particular reason at all. example: "i am not dreaming". #>|compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of #>|their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational. #>i can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism? to #>say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which #>i suspect you do not have. #using the traditonal definition of gods. personal, supernatural entities #with objective effects on this world. usually connected to morals and/or #the way the world works. imo, any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational. that does not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of intelligence. some atheists are also scientists, for example. #>|the affinity to fanatism is easily seen. it has to be true because i believe #>|it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. however, the beliefs say they are #>|more than a work hypothesis. #>i don't understand this. can you formalise your argument? #person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice. that does not make #b true, it is at best a work hypothesis. however, the content of b is that #it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis. testing or evaluating #evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b (already believed) #says it is wrong/ a waste of time/ not possible. depending on the further #contents of b amalekites/idolaters/protestants are to be killed, this can #have interesting effects. peculiar definition of interesting, but sure. now show that a belief in gods entails the further contents of which you speak. why aren't my catholic neighbours out killing the protestants, for example? maybe they don't believe in it. maybe it's the conjunction of "b asserts b" and "jail/kill dissenters" that is important, and the belief in gods is entirely irrelevant. it certainly seems so to me, but then i have no axe to grind here. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 |>i love god just as much as she loves me. if she wants to seduce me, |>she'll know what to do. but if he/she did you would probably consider it rape. |>: simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see |>: that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". |>: our ability to reason is just a spec of creation. yet some think it is |>: the ultimate. if you rely simply on your reason then you will never |>: know more than you do now. |>your argument is of the type "you'll know once you try". |>yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried, and believed |>for many years, but were eventually honest enough to admit that |>they had lived in a virtual reality. obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe. so .. ? |>: to learn you must accept that which you don't know. |>what does this mean? to learn you must accept that you don't know |>something, right-o. but to learn you must _accept_ something i don't |>know, why? this is not the way i prefer to learn. it is unwise to |>merely swallow everything you read. suppose i write a book telling |>how the great invisible pink unicorn (tm) has helped me in my |>daily problems, would you accept this, since you can't know whether |>it is true or not? no one asks you to swallow everything, in fact jesus warns against it. but let me ask you a question. do you beleive what you learn in history class, or for that matter anything in school. i mean it's just what other people have told you and you don't want to swallow what others say. right ... ? the life , death, and resurection of christ is documented historical fact. as much as anything else you learn. how do you choose what to believe and what not to? i could argue that george washington is a myth. he never lived because i don't have any proof except what i am told. however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him. neat trick uh? there is no way to get into a sceptical heart. you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have. you must trust, not just go to church and participate in it's activities. were you ever willing to die for what you believed? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53673">
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 while we're on the topic of books, has anyone else noticed that paine's "the age of reason" is hard to find. i've been wanting to pick up a copy for a while, but not bad enough to mail order it. i've noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it. i thought this was supposed to be classic. what's the deal? actually, i've got an entire list of books written by various atheist authors and i went to the largest bookstore in my area (pittsburgh) and couldn't find _any_ of them. what section of the bookstore do you find these kinds of books in? do you have to look in an "alternative" bookstore for most of them? any help would be appreciated (i can send you the list if you want). if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): the fate of the country does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot box once a year, but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning. 
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 [stuff deleted...] the point of my post was that rushdie was not being condemned solely for the "words" in his book (although this was certainly a contributing factor). it was the whole series of actions of rushdie and his publishers following the publication of the book and the initial media spotlight placed on the book, that (in large part) led to the fatwa. the kind of fatwa levelled against rushdie is not lightly placed and there are any number of anti-islamic writers both within and outside the islamic world who have not had fatwas made against them. here, someone who adds fuel to an explosive situation, might be charged with incitement to riot - if people die in the rioting the charges against him might become even more serious. how can rushdie be blamed for the deaths of people who are demonstrating against him? the deaths should be blamed on the people who dealt with the demonstrations, or on the demonstrators themselves, if they were violent. to what lengths will you go to justify this barbaric behaviour against rushdie? once the rushdie situation exploded into the media, the muslim voice on the matter of the book was effectively restricted to short video bytes the dramatic highlights of muslim demonstrations. for every twenty or so newspaper, magazine articles, interviews etc. supporting rushdie, there appear one muslim voice. this person was usually selected based on how dramatic and incoherent he was, not on his knowledge of islam or the situation at the time. this approx. twenty to one ratio continued throughout the escalation of the crisis, with rushdie in the central spotlight as the man of the moment, the valiant defender of everyman's right to free speech decoupled from responsibility. (as an aside, it's interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom of speech went up, some books (defaming certain ethnic and religious groups) continued to be banned here. it was felt that they injured the sensibilities of these groups and presented a false image which could promote feelings of hate towards these groups. for muslims this kind of double standard was annoying.) rushdie saw this spotlight as a golden opportunity to lash out at "organized" islam, and he did so with admirable verbal skill. the only kind of islam which rushdie finds palatable is what he calls a "secular" islam - an islam separated from it's qur'an, it's prophet, god, its legislation, and most importantly from any intrusion into any political arena. fine - rushdie his views known - the muslim's made their anger at his book known. the scale of the whole affair erupted into global proportions - it was, by this already a political situation - affecting governments as well as the situation was a serious one, with far-reaching political implications. at the centre of this turmoil was rushdie, throwing fuel on the fire - in a personal crusade that made him oblivious to any sense of caution. now you may feel that the person in the centre of a worldwide storm such as this has no responsibility, has no reason to exercise restraint of any kind, has no obligation to perhaps step back momentarily out of the spotlight till matters calm down. perhaps you even feel that he is justified in "boldly" defying the anger of all those who dare to take umbrage at his literary work, no matter what insult they find within it. perhaps you see him as a kind of secular "heroic knight",mounted on the his media steed, doing battle with the "dragon" of islamic "fundamentalism". well khomeini saw him as a disingeneous author who grew up in a muslim atmosphere, knew well what muslim's hold dear, who wrote a book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions to slander, insult, and attack islam and its most notable personalities - who, when faced with a situation that became a worldwide crisis, continued with his mischief in the world stage of the media - who, even after people were injured and killed because of the magnitude and emotion of the situation, continued his mischief, instead of having the good sense to desist. khomeini saw the crisis as mischief making on a grand scale, mischief making that grew in scale as the scale of the crisis enlarged. the deaths of muslims around the world and rushdie's continued media mischief even after this, was the triggering factor that seemed to decide khomeini on putting a stop to the mischief. the person at the centre of all these events was rushdie - he was the source of the continuing mischief - all media support, government support was just that - support. the source was rushdie (and his publishers, who were nothing short of ecstatic at the publicity and were very happy to see rushdie constantly in the media). the islamic rulings that deal with people who engage in this kind of grand-scale mischief making, was applied to rushdie. you're attempts at justification are not doing the image of islam any good. i have made no attempts at justification, only at explanation. "image" is the chief concern of muslim 'apologists' for islam and for rushdie. if muslims willingly relegated themselves to becoming a sub-culture within a larger secular culture, such that the secular principles and laws had precedence over the laws of islam - then i have no doubt that islam would then be thought to have a good "image" (principally because it would by and large reflect the secular image). a "good image" usually means " be like me". your attempts at totally exonerating rushdie reflect exactly the attitude resulted in the polarization brought about by the crisis. in iran, the situation was monitored for many months - when rushdie kept adding fuel to the flames through the free worldwide voice that the media gave him, the situation was monitored more seriously. when, even after many deaths occured worldwide, rushdie still did not desist - the fatwa was pronounced. when behaving like a total jerk endangers lives, and the jerk sees this and still insists on his right to behave like a total jerk - he has the rug jerked out from under him. if the muslims didn't make such a big fuss over the book, like issuing death threats, and killing publishers, no one would have heard of it. the fatwa came later - much later. if rushdie didn't mouth off so much in media, the fuss would have died down - no one would have been killed, no fatwa would have been passed - the whole episode would have fizzled away. 
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 i assume that you say here a religious law is for the followers of the religion. that begs the question why the religion has the right to define who is a follower even when the offenders disagree. no, i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. this prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion who, when charged, claims that he/she was _not_ a member of the religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53756">
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 a brutal system filtered through "leniency" is not lenient. how do you rate public floggings or floggings at all? chopping off the hands, heads, or other body parts? what about stoning? i don't have a problem with floggings, particularly, when the offenders have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are given. i do have a problem with maiming in general, by whatever means. in my opinion no-one who has not maimed another should be maimed. in the case of rape the victim _is_ maimed, physically and emotionally, so i wouldn't have a problem with maiming rapists. obviously i wouldn't have a problem with maiming murderers either. may i ask if you had the same opinion before you became a muslim? sure. yes, i did. you see i don't think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly. you, being so interested in leniency for leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be told the "did a _bad_ thing." and what about the simple chance of misjudgements? misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible. i suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely. "orient" is not a place having a single character. your ignorance exposes itself nicely here. read carefully, i have not said all the orient shows primitive machism. well then, why not use more specific words than "orient"? probably because in your mind there is no need to (it's all the same). because it contains sufficient information. while more detail is possible, it is not necessary. and europe shows civilized bullshit. this is bullshit. time to put out or shut up. you've substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like "islamists" who talk about the west as the "great satan." you're both guilty of stupidities. i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names. in this case, to substantiate it: the quran allows that one beats one's wife into submission. really? care to give chapter and verse? we could discuss it. primitive machism refers to that. (i have misspelt that before, my fault). again, not all of the orient follows the qur'an. so you'll have to do better than that. sorry, you haven't "put out" enough. islam expresses extramarital sex. extramarital sex is a subset of sex. it is suppressedin islam. that marial sexis allowed or encouraged in islam, as it is in many branches of christianity, too, misses the point. read the part about the urge for sex again. religions that run around telling people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons: suppressing a strong urge needs strong measures, and it is not their business anyway. believe what you wish. i thought you were trying to make an argument. all i am reading are opinions. it is an argument. that you doubt the validity of the premises does not change it. if you want to criticize it, do so. time for you to put up or shut up. this is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress sex. a such it's an irrelevant argument. if you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine. my response is then: you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments"). the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it. if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53757">
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 so while faith itself is a gift, obedience is what makes faith possible. what makes obeying different from believing? i am still wondering how it is that i am to be obedient, when i have no idea to whom i am to be obedient! it is all written in _the_wholly_babble:_the_users_guide_to_invisible_ to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns, you must read the babble, and obey what is written in it. to obey what is written in the babble, you must believe that doing so is the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns. to believe that obeying what is written in the babble leads to believing in invisible pink unicorns, you must, essentially, believe in invisible pink unicorns. this bit of circular reasoning begs the question: what makes obeying different from believing? qpliu@princeton.edu standard opinion: opinions are delta-correlated. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53758">
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 what about the twelve imams, who he considered incapable of error or sin? khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans. this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above. i would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 imams with you, although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup. i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view _as i've articulated it above_ (which may not be the true view of khomeini) is from the basic principles of islam. so that the non-muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them. and if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of islam, how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur'an. the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet (s.a.). heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical substance of man's being and nature. in my opinion considering any human being as having a substance or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by islam. from your posts, you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought. you should seek to know shi'ite thought through knowledgeable shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled. absolutely! i would be interested in discussing this privately and i am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of error-free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with the teachings of the qur'an. however, _prima facie_ such attemptsa are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery, explicitly proscribed by the qur'an. as salaam a-laikum alaikum wassalam 
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 date: fri, 16 apr 1993 14:15:20 +0100 from: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he's finished writing a sequel to the bible. writing the seven seals or something along those lines. he's already written the first of the seven which was around 30 pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading!. i would expect any decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker. maybe koresh 2.0 will come with one. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53764">
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 p.s. i'm not sure about this but i think the charge of "shatim" also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the "fasad" ruling. please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again. my apologies. "shatim", i believe, refers to slandering or spreading slander and lies about the prophets(a.s) - any of the prophets. basically, any prophet i've ever dealt with has either been busy hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in florida. then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it. it's a kind of willful caulmny and "cursing" that's indicated by the word. this is the best explanation i can come up with off the top of my head - i'll try and look up a more technical definition when i have the time. never mind that, but let me tell you about this chevelle i bought from this dude (you guessed it, a prophet) named mohammed. i've got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks, then manny, my mechanic, tells me it was loaded with sawdust! take a guess whether "mohammed" was anywhere to be found. i don't think so. "fasad" is a little more difficult to describe. again, this is not a technical definition - i'll try and get that later. literally, oh, mohammed! the word "fasad" means mischief. but it's a mischief on the order of magnitude indicated by the word "corruption". it's when someone who is doing something wrong to begin with, seeks to escalate the hurt, yeah, you, mohammed! disorder, concern, harm etc. (the mischief) initially caused by their actions. the "wrong" is specifically related to attacks against "god and his messenger" and mischief, corruption, disorder etc. you slimy mass of pond scum! resulting from that. the attack need not be a physical attack and there are different levels of penalty proscribed, depending on the extent of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to "make hay" of the situation. the severest punishment is death. yeah, right! you're the one should be watching your butt. you and your buddy allah. the stereo he sold me croaked after two days. your ass is grass! yeah, that's right, jim. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53765">
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 they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. they picked words whose meanings implied the intent. we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. isn't this sufficient? we only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment? hanging? hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful, both physically and psychologicall, i imagine. well, most hangings are very quick and, i imagine, painless. firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those days ], etc. all would be considered cruel under your definition. all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers. and, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too. and, if these things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution (painless) would not be, either. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53766">
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 they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution. i realise that this is widely held belief in america, but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments, like a lot of the rest, was lifted from the english bill of rights of 1689. just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn't spend much time on the wording. we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. isn't this sufficient? since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to inflict injury or grief counted as "cruel", sure. people can be described as cruel in this way, but punishments cannot. 
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 no, i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. this who does the categorizing? " i'd cheat on hillary too." john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling "traditional family values." 
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 i saw a 3 hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews. appearently, the cursades(a religious war agianst the muslilams in 'the holy land') sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe. among the supporters of the persiecution, were none other than martin luther, and the vatican. later, hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews. genocide is caused by theism : evidence? 
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 my theory, though yet unproven, is that this is due to simple envy. no its not. its due to the fact that there are two issues here: religion and religion. religion is personal belief system. religion is a memetic virus. people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from religion -> religion. people that want to "save" others are firmly entrenched in religion ("memoids"). rule #1 of not practicing religion is to shut the fuck up, unless you discuss it politely. this means that the motive behind the conversation is not only your self-gratifying wish to spread the word. religion is something that ultimately comes from within a person, and reflects their value judgements. religion is something that is contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements (other than perhaps "i think i'll be brainwashed today"). religion is a drug... i believe you can discuss religion. however, the post that started this off was not intented as discussion, it was more a proclamation of someones religion. if you think i'm talking about censorship or that i'm closeminded you haven't understood this. i don't have any problem with the discussion of religion, its just religion that i can't stand... 
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 it seems a very large part of christianity is based on the notion that it is the _right_ religion, and that just about any other way of looking at the universe is flat-out wrong. in the old days we had the inquisition and the burning of heretics; now we have pat buchanan trying to start some cultural war because he can't stand to live in the same country as all these other, non-"god fearing" people. its a survival trait. there are only a fixed number of resources (people) for religions to inhabit. the doctrines of intolerance and not using birth control are devices whereby the meme of the (capital-r) religion of christianity gains a larger share of the population than its memetic 
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 dan, i'm concerned that you are in grave spiritual danger because of your stubborn refusal to love and accept into your heart the mighty invisible pink unicorn...[nice parody deleted.] i shall pray for you. in fact, brother, i cast out the demon which binds you in the name of the mighty invisible pink unicorn. dan, you must have *faith*! then you better pray for me, too, because i believe that the mighty invisibile pink unicorn does not exist. one being cannot be both "pink" and "invisible." the demon (or should that be daemon?) that keeps me from believing and saving my soul is named logic. bill mayne 
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<answer instance="alt.atheism53790" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 anyway, since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion, i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book? what are your thoughts on it? i read it when it first came out[...] and i *liked* it. [...] at the time i still "sorta-kinda" thought of myself as a muslim, and i couldn't see what the flap was all about. [...] thank you. i now know at least that though i may be on drugs, at least i'm not the only one. the writing style was a little hard to get used to, but it was well worth the effort. coming from a similar background (rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family, and moved to england; i grew up in new delhi), it made a strong impression on me. (and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english: the "yaar" at the end of a sentence, "butbutbut," the occasional hindi phrase, etc.) yes, this took some getting used to -- of course not having an indian connection, no knowledge of hindi, etc., this was not trivial for me. i did have, thanks to the wonders of the net, "a glossary to *satanic verses*", posted to rec.arts.books by vijay raghavan, which explains a lot of the indian english constructions, indian culture references, even the islamic references ("jahilia", "submission", the context of the satanic verses incident, etc.) -- what i have only covers the first couple of hundred pages, but it helped me get into the flow of the novel [i can mail this to anyone interested; if anyone has portions after part i, if they exist, i'd like to get those]. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 if i make a statement, "that god exists, loves me, etc." but in no way insist that you believe it, does that place a burden of proof upon me. if you insist that god doesn't exist, does that place a burden of proof upon you? i give no proofs, i only give testimony to my beliefs. i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs. what is your reaction to people who claim they were abducted by space aliens? some of these people say, "i was abducted, experimented on, etc." if we insist that these aliens don't exist is the burden of proof placed on us. these people can give no hard facts but can give a lot of testimony to back up their beliefs. replace <space aliens> with <elvis>, <big foot>, <blue unicorns>, and we have a larger percentage of the population than i like to think sometimes i wonder if reality really is a different experience for everone. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53792">
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 john e. king (king@ctron.com) posts a whopping one liner: * "the modern theory of evolution is so inadequate that it deserves to be * * treated as a matter of faith." -- francis hitching * i have a few points to make about the above posting. 1. science is not based on and does not consist of "quotes" from either real or alleged experts. critical reasoning, evidence and (if possible) experimentation are necessary. creationists frequently display a massive confusion about this by merely quoting both non-experts and experts alike (some of the latter quotes are in fact false) and steadfastly refusing to follow any kind of rigorous scientific procedure. this strongly suggests that (a.) their claims completely lack any scientific merit and (b.) they are aware of this fatal deficiency. of course, you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent. 2. you have failed to identify hitching and the surrounding context of his statement. why is that? if hitching is a scientific illiterate then the quote would merely display his profound ignorance of evolutionary biology. creationists are frequently known to quote real scientists out of context and to fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute to legitimate scientists. of course, you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent. 3. evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies of "the modern theory of evolution" would be a much more powerful argument than a contextless one line quote from an unidentified nobody. it is also important to note that disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate claims any more that disproving that the earth is shaped like a hockey puck proves that it is a hyperbolic paraboloid. creationists seem rather fond of diving (head first) into this logical fallacy. of course, you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent. 4. since evolution is central to virtually all of modern science, an attack on evolution (either the fact or the theory) really represents an attack on science. while the theory will unquestionably continue to evolve (b^) the fact of evolution will not ever go away. creationists lost the battle long ago (more than 100 years in fact) but are simply too willfully ignorant and irrational to acknowledge the fact. of course, you may not actually be a creationist and you may not really be that ignorant. warren kurt vonroeschlaub (kv07@iastate.edu) asks: * neither i, nor webster's has ever heard of francis hitchings. who is he? * i, like hitchings, am not to be found in webster's b^). francis hitchings is a scientifically illiterate creationist (or perhaps he is just playing the part of one) who wrote a quite ignorant book attacking evolution ("the neck of the giraffe"). in that publication he quotes a creationist (jean sloat morton) using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could not have formed by chance. thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution (the two are quite independent) but also concluding with a "non sequitur" (i.e. the conclusion "does not follow"). [pp 70-71] hitchings also misquotes richard lewontin in an effort to support creationism. [pp 84] hitchings book was reviewed by national park service ecologist david graber in the los angeles times (and repeated in the oregonian). the article was titled "`giraffe' sticks scientific neck out too far". excerpts include : "francis hitchings is not a biologist." "he goes after darwin like mark antony after brutus. he flips from scientific reasoning to mysticism and pseudo-science with the sinuosity of a snake-oil salesman." "he suggests a mystical `organizing principle' of life, using the similarity of organs in different creatures as evidence [sic]." note that the last statement above is actually evidence for evolution not against it. if john e. king is quoting from this reviewed book it wouldn't surprise me much. it's also interesting that king had nothing to add (i.e. he only posted a quote). uucp: uunet!tektronix!sail!mikec or m.cranford uunet!tektronix!sail.labs.tek.com!mikec principal troll arpa: mikec%sail.labs.tek.com@relay.cs.net resident skeptic csnet: mikec@sail.labs.tek.com teklabs, tektronix 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53793">
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 i saw a 3 hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews. appearently, the cursades(a religious war agianst the muslilams in 'the holy land') sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe. among the supporters of the persiecution, were none other than martin luther, and the vatican. later, hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews. genocide is caused by theism : evidence? heck, i remember reading a quote of luther as something like: "jews should be shot like deer." and of course much catholic doctrine for centuries was extremely anti-semitic. "are you so sure that your truth and your justice are worth more than the truths and justices of other centuries?" - simone de beauvoir "where is there a certainty that rises above all doubt and withstands all critique?" - karl jaspers rice university, will rice college '96 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53794">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53794" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 wait. are we talking about ethics or morals here? is the distinction important? well, make it. ethics deal with individuals. morals deal with groups. well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways. please describe these "number of ways" in detail. then explain the any contradictions that may arise. just look at how human behavior mimics animal behavior. i couldn't even begin to list all of the similarities. many of the dissimilarities are due to our high intelligence. please describe these "number of ways" in detail. then explain any contradictions that may arise. i don't know. what is wrong? is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild? yes, it's possible, but it is difficult. humans are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success. define "difficult". i don't understand what you don't understand. the sentence, "yes, it's possible, but it is difficult." humans survived "in the wild" for hundreds of thousands of years. no. as noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality) isn't really destructive to the system. it is a worst neutral. so if every member of the species was homosexual, this wouldn't be destructive to the survival of the species? most animals that exhibit homosexuality are actually bisexual. answer the question, keith. is homosexuality detrimental to the survival of the species? =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53798">
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 apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently, has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp? if this idea hasn't been followed up, does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen? i think that its a great idea. should we start a petition or something? i believe that there's a 10 year period from time of death until a person can be on a commemorative stamp. it was broken once for lyndon johnson (i think) but other than that it has held for awhile. of course, we can still start now -- the elvis stamp was petitioned for ages and things really moved once it got past the 10 year anniversary of his death. carl christensen /~~\_/~\ ,,, dept. of computer science christen@astro.ocis.temple.edu | #=#==========# | temple university "curiouser and curiouser!" - lc \__/~\_/ ``` philadelphia, pa usa 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53801">
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 #i'll be leaving in june. that's because i'm going back to my university #& alt.atheism is banned there (stupid theist intolerance). sad isn't it. #anybody has any idea how i can circumvent this problem? [frank's solution deleted.] if you have access to telnet, contact nyx.cs.du.edu. it's a public access unix system, completly free, and all you need to for access is a verifiable form of id (i think he requires a notarized copy of a picture, or a check, or some such). =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53803">
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 this is the story of kent, the archetype finn, that lives in the bay area, and tried to purchase thomas paine's "age of reason". this man was driving around, to staceys, to books inc, to "well, cleanlighted place", to daltons, to various other places. when he asked for this book, the well educated american book store assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section, or then they said that his book has not been published yet, but they should receive the book soon. in some places the assistants bluntly said that they don't know of such an author, or that he is not a well known living author, so they don't keep copies of his books. such is the life and times of america, 200+ years after the revolution. on a similar note, a good friend of mine worked as a clerk in a chain bookstore. several of his peers were amazing, one woman in particular: a customer asked her if they had _the autobiography of benjamin franklin_. "who's it by?" was her first question. then, "is he still alive?" then, "is it fiction or non-fiction?" finally my friend intervened, and showed the guy where it was. it makes one wonder what the standards of employment are. -- scott sauyet ssauyet@eagle.wesleyan.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53804">
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 did that faq ever got modified to re-define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god, but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god? in a word, yes. mathew: could you let us know when this happened, so i can see if my version is as up-to-date as possible? i try to re-save the faqs once in a while, but otherwise i ignore their regular postings, so i wouldn't generally notice such a change. and i like to stay current. -- scott 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53805">
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 i recall a discussion i had heard years ago. it went something like this: the problem with omnipotence (at least as i perceive it) as personified by the christian god ideal is that it is potentially contradictory. if a manifestation such as god is truly infinite in power can god place limits upon itself? some stuff i can't recall. then some other questions i think i recall correctly: can god unmake itself? can god make itself (assuming it doesn't yet exist)? has god has always existed or is it necessary for an observer to bind all of gods potential quantum states into reality? was god nothing more than a primordial force of nature that existed during the earliest stages of universal (inflationary?) creation? is god a vacuum fluctuation? given a great enough energy density could we re-create god? would that make us god and god something else? some more stuff i don't recall concerning creating god. followed by: is god self-aware? is it necessary that god be self-aware? is god a living entity? is it necessay that god be a living entity? is god unchanging or does it evolve? any comments? post them so that others might benefit from the open inquiry and resulting discussion. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53809">
<answer instance="alt.atheism53809" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 kent sandvik and jon livesey made essentially the same response, so this time kent's article gets the reply: i agree, but this started at one particular point in time, and we don't know when this starting point of 'accurately copied scriptures' actually happened. this begs the question of whether it ever "started"-- perhaps because accuracy was always an intention. even worse, if the events in nt were not written by eye witness accounts (a high probability looking at possible dates when the first gospels were ready) then we have to take into account all the problems with information forwarded with the 'telephone metaphor', indeed. it makes little difference if you have eyewitnesses or people one step away (reporters, if you will). as i said earlier, the "telephone" metaphor is innately bad, because the purpose of a game of telephone is contrary to the aims of writing these sorts of texts. (also, i would point out that, by the standards generally asserted in this group, the distinction between eyewitnesses and others is hollow, since nobody can be shown to be an eyewitness, or indeed, even shown to be the author of the text.) there is no evidence that the "original" texts of either the ot or the nt are largely lost over time in a sea of errors, "corrections", additions and deletions. in the case of the nt, the evidence is strongly in the other direction: the textus r. and the nestle-aland text do not differ on more than a low level of significance. it is reasonable to assume a similar situation for the ot, based on the nt as a model. c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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<instance id="alt.atheism53811">
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 |> >>>it has been asked why no counter-fatwa has been issued against |> >>>khomenei's condemnation of rushdies because of his _satanic verses_. |> >>>the reason is basically that the "satanic verses" from which rushdie |> >>>took his title are a serious matter not to be played around with by |> >>>anyone who cares about islam. |> >>this shouldn't matter. |> >that's your opinion, which i am sorry to say is irrelevant. |> >gregg |> this guy sounds more than a little borg-ish! vell, this is perfectly normal behaviour vor a vogon, you know? 
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 i just received some new information regarding the issue of bcci and whether it is an islamic bank etc. i am now about to post it under the heading "bcci". look for it there! fred rice darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54125">
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 : if the bible is such incredible proof of christianity, then why aren't : the muslims or the hindus convinced? : if the qur'an is such incredible proof of islam, then why aren't the : hindus or the christians convinced? if god exists, why aren't atheists convinced? tan chade meng | "yes, sir, i have only one question: singapore | cmtan@iss.nus.sg | what is going on?!" 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54126">
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 simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now. ^^^^^^ i once heard an arguement from a xtian friend similar to this. "christianity is a higher logic. athiest like u will not be able to understand it. your atheist logic is very low. only thru faith can we understand the higher logic in god". so i asked him, "so what is this higher logic?" his answer, "i don't know." this, & the posting above highlights one of the worst things about xtainity. it is abundantly clear to both atheists & xtains that their believe is both illogical & irrational. their tactics, therefore: to disregard logic & rationality altogether. silly excuses such as the ones above and those such as, "how can u trust science, science was invented by man!", only goes to further show the weakness of their religion. in my country where xtainity was and still is rapidly growing, xtains never try to convert people by appealing to their brains or senses. they know it would be a fruitless act, given the irrational nature of their faith. they would wait until a person is in distress, then they would comfort him/her and addict them to their emotional opium. never in my life had i met a person who converted to xtainity coz it's "reasonable". rationality has no place in xtainity (see xtian arguement against "reason" above). the unenlightened one tan chade meng | the wise man tells his wife that he understands her. singapore | cmtan@iss.nus.sg | the fool tries to prove it. the unenlightened one tan chade meng | the wise man tells his wife that he understands her. singapore | cmtan@iss.nus.sg | the fool tries to prove it. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54127">
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 healta@saturn.wwc.edu (tammy r healy) writes: > tammy "see, maddi, i trimmed it!" healy well, you're going to have to practice, but you're getting the hang of it. soon we're going to have to give you a new nickname. try these on for size: tammy "lucky seven" healy tammy "pass the falafel" healy tammy "r us" healy tammy "learning by doing" healy the "r us" thing is trademarked. i don't know if charles lazarus is dead or alive, but i'd be careful, because with a name like lazarus, he might rise again just to start a dean kaflowitz (i knew an architect once who, i swear, was employed to design the signs for the toys r us and kids r us stores. the signs. the things they stick over the store or up on a big pole so they can be seen from the highway. what a job. all those hours in school studying to be an architect so you can tell them to move the pole ten feet closer to the highway.) 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54128">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54128" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 the "r us" thing is trademarked. i don't know if charles lazarus is dead or alive, but i'd be careful, because with a name like lazarus, he might rise again just to start a the "r us" is not trademarked, but the "backwards r us" is, i speaking of proofs of god, the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman. she wrote, "god must exist, because he wouldn't be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn't!" is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes, among raymond smullyan [from "5,000 b.c. and other philosophical fantasies".] 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54129">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54129" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 i was asked to post list of the sda church's basic beliefs. the sda church has always been reluctant to formalize a creed in the usual sense of word. however, the powers that be in the church deemed it neccessary to publish a summary of basic sda beliefs. may i ask why they are afraid to do so? speaking of proofs of god, the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman. she wrote, "god must exist, because he wouldn't be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn't!" is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes, among raymond smullyan [from "5,000 b.c. and other philosophical fantasies".] 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54133">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54133" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be prepared for your eternal damnation!!! oh fuck off. actually, i just think he's confused. *i'm* going to hell because i'm gay, not becuase i don't believe in god. (i wonder if that means i can't come to tammy & deans picnic?) of course you can come. i said "all a.a posters are invited" and i didn't put a "no homosexual" clause. bring some munchies and join the party!!! i can't imagine dean objecting, either. knowing keith, i expect he'll bring the leather accessories. better oil it well. leather cracks when it dries. dean kaflowitz 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54135">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54135" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 wasn't jc a carpenter? anyway that's beside the point. i think the fact that is more compelling is jc fulfilling the prophecies when the prophecies include him getting killed in the most agonizing possible way. this is nonsense. i can think of a lot more agonizing ways to get killed. fatal cancer, for anyone else have some more? maybe we can make a list. actually, i find the stuff about jc being a carpenter more interesting. is there an independent source for this assertion, or is it all from the christian bible? is there any record at all of anything he built? a table, a house, some stairs (norm abrams says the real test of a carpenter's skill is building stairs with hand tools). did he leave any plans behind for, say kitchen counters and cabinets? did he build his own cross? if so, did he use pressure-treated lumber? gotta use that pressure-treated anywhere that wood meets concrete, but it holds up better anyway for mose outdoor applications. i keep seeing these bumper-stickers that say "my boss is a jewish carpenter," but they're always on the back of ford escorts, and a real carpenter's apprentice would probably drive a pickup, so i'm out for verification that he really was a dean kaflowitz sometimes i like to get away from the shack catfish ain't pretty but they don't talk back goin' fishin' again goin' fishin' again me and my no good friends sure goin' fishin' again 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54137">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54137" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 the "r us" thing is trademarked. i don't know if charles lazarus is dead or alive, but i'd be careful, because with a name like lazarus, he might rise again just to start a the "r us" is not trademarked, but the "backwards r us" is, i yup, i think you're right. my mistake. now, how do i make an "r" backwards using a computer keyboard? i'll bet the gods know how (this is alt.atheism, after all). tell you what, if all my "r"s start coming out backwards when i type from now on, i'll become a believer. (and that's not asking for miracles. if i asked for a miracle, i'd ask for a real miracle, like for pat buchanan to become an out-of-the-closet drag queen - well...maybe that wouldn't be so miraculous, but i think he'd look fabulous in a feather boa and a sequined hat like mia farrow wore in gatsby.) dean kaflowitz 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54139">
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 : rb> no, that's praying on the young. preying on the young comes : rb> later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the : rb> priest really wears under that chasible. does this statement further the atheist cause in some way, surely it's not intended as wit ... surely it was intended as wit. by the way, which "atheist cause" were you referring to, bill? --- __ _______ --- ||| kevin marshall \ \/ /_ _/ computer science department ||| ||| virginia tech \ / / / marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu ||| --- blacksburg, virginia \/ /_/ (703) 232-6529 --- 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54141">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54141" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 what i want is a response giving me the pros and cons of metaphorical religious language. could an atheist accept this view without giving up the foundamentals of what he believes in? could an atheist accept a usage in which religious literature or tradition is viewed in a metaphorical way? of course: this is essentially what we do with homer, or with other concepts such as fate, luck, free will ;-)... however, there remains the question of whether the religious literature of -- say -- christianity is a particularly *good* set of metaphors for the world today. it's also entirely unclear, and to me quite unlikely, that one could take a contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential from the literalism and absolutism it carries now in many cases. jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54143">
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 this is hell. hasn't anyone noticed? << consensual reality is a special case >> 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54164">
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 archive-name: atheism/overview alt-atheism-archive-name: overview last-modified: 20 april 1993 version: 1.3 welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated. this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post them to the net. in addition, people often request information which has been posted time and time again. in order to try and cut down on this, the alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles: 1. alt.atheism faq: overview for new readers 2. alt.atheism faq: introduction to atheism 3. alt.atheism faq: frequently asked questions (faq) 4. alt.atheism faq: constructing a logical argument 5. alt.atheism faq: atheist resources this is article number 1. please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting. the others are entirely optional. if you are new to usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup news.announce.newusers. the articles titled "a primer on how to work with the usenet community", "answers to frequently asked questions about usenet" and "hints on writing style for usenet" are particularly relevant. questions concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions. if you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "finding stuff" section below. these files could not have been written without the assistance of the many readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated. in particular, i'd like to thank the following people: kck+@cs.cmu.edu (karl kluge) perry@dsinc.com (jim perry) netoprwa@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (wayne aiken) chpetk@gdr.bath.ac.uk (toby kelsey) jkp@cs.hut.fi (jyrki kuoppala) geoff.arnold@east.sun.com (geoff arnold) torkel@sics.se (torkel franzen) kmldorf@utdallas.edu (george kimeldorf) roe2@quads.uchicago.edu (greg roelofs) arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (ken arromdee) madhaus@netcom.com (maddi hausmann) j5j@psuvm.psu.edu (john a. johnson) dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (douglas graham) mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (william mayne) ajr@bigbird.hri.com (andy rosen) stoesser@ira.uka.de (achim stoesser) bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (bryan o'sullivan) lippard@ccit.arizona.edu (james j. lippard) s1b3832@rigel.tamu.edu (s. baum) ydobyns@phoenix.princeton.edu (york h. dobyns) schroede@sdsc.edu (wayne schroeder) baldwin@csservera.usna.navy.mil (j.d. baldwin) d_nibby@unhh.unh.edu (dana nibby) dempsey@kodak.com (richard c. dempsey) jmunch@hertz,elee.calpoly.edu (john david munch) pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (paul crowley) rz@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (richard zach) tycchow@math.mit.edu (tim chow) simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (simon clippingdale) phimanen@cc.helsinki.fi (pekka himanen) ...and countless others i've forgotten. these articles are free. truly free. you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish. however, please send any changes or corrections to the author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network. finding stuff all of the faq files *should* be somewhere on your news system. here are some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them: 1. check the newsgroup alt.atheism. look for subject lines starting with "alt.atheism faq:". 2. check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines. if you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the 3. if you have anonymous ftp access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.226]. go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest versions of the faq files there. ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers. if you need help in using or getting started with ftp, send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq in the body. 4. there are other sites which also carry news.answers postings. the article "introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers. 5. if you don't have ftp, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu consisting of the following lines: send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources send usenet/alt.atheism/faq send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction send usenet/alt.atheism/logic send usenet/alt.atheism/resources 5. (penultimate resort) send mail to mail-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of the following lines: send atheism/faq/faq.txt send atheism/faq/logic.txt send atheism/faq/intro.txt send atheism/faq/resource.txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files. there's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and "send atheism/index". 6. (last resort) mail mathew@mantis.co.uk, or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files. you should only do this if you've tried the above methods and they've failed; it's not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people's mailboxes with requests for files. it's better than posting without reading the faq, though! for instance, people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don't have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files. ÿ 
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 atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view, and a minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing. i guess that's why scientists probably aren't mentioned either. or stock brokers. or television repairmen. it's precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood ( that it takes to progress a religion ) cleans away a very substantial part of the reasoning neurons. but don't mind me; i don't exist. -jim halat 
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 (deletion) sure. yes, i did. you see i don't think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly. you, being so interested in leniency for leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be told the "did a _bad_ thing." straw man. and you brought up leniency. and what about the simple chance of misjudgements? misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible. i suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely. assuming that misjudgements are not correlated. (deletion) i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names. in this case, to substantiate it: the quran allows that one beats one's wife into submission. really? care to give chapter and verse? we could discuss it. has been discussed here. chapter and verse were cited, i assume that you weren't looking then. let's be more exact, do you think it is not in the quran?. and what would your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it? primitive machism refers to that. (i have misspelt that before, my fault). again, not all of the orient follows the qur'an. so you'll have to do better than that. i have not claimed that. it is sufficient for the argument when there are a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as machistic. are you going to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the (deletion) this is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress sex. a such it's an irrelevant argument. if you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine. my response is then: you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments"). the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it. if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner. you apparently have trouble reading things you don't like. the point was having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire. marriage is a red herring. tell me about homosexuals, for one. you simply ignore everything that doesn't fit into the world as you would like to have it. and as for the situation of adolescents, one has probably keep your combination of leniency and maiming in mind, whe you say that it does not take *overly* strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in 
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 (deletion) nope, germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws. the ethnic germans who have lived in russia for over 100 years automatically become citizens if they move to germany, but the turks who are now in their third generation in germany can't. that's wrong. they can. 
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 this is fascinating. atheists argue for abortion, defend homosexuality as a means of population control, insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment. according to benedikt, if something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in this case means atheists i suppose. what atheists are you talking about? imnsho, abortion is the womans choice. homosexual sex is the choice of the people involved. war is sometimes necessary. this leaves capital punishment. i oppose capital punishemnt because mistakes can happen (yes this thread went around with no resolution recently). as far as poplulation control, i think contraception and education are the best courses of action. i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital punishment, i'm sorry but the logic escapes me. that's because you are again making the assumption that all atheists have some specific mindset. and why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the propriety of killing or of punishment? what is the basis of the mistakes can happen bill, and i could be the victim of such a mistake. mike mcangus | the truth is still the truth mam@mouse.cmhnet.org | even if you choose to ignore it. (some of the old .sig viruses are still the best) 
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 |> yet i am still not a believer. is god not concerned with my |> disposition? why is it beneath him to provide me with the |> evidence i would require to believe? the evidence that my |> personality, given to me by this god, would find compelling? the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to. but think about it for a minute. would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to love you. the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him. he promises to be there for you, but you have to look for yourself. those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort. i and many others on a.a have described how we have tried to find god. are you saying our efforts have not been sincere? for all the effort i have put in, there has been no outward nor inward change that i can perceive. what's a sincerely searching agnostic or atheist supposed to do when even the search turns up nothing? simple logic arguments are folly. if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic". our ability to reason is just a spec of creation. yet some think it is the ultimate. if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now. to learn you must accept that which you don't know. how do you "accept that which you don't know"? do you mean that i must believe in your god in order to believe in your god? mike mcangus | the truth is still the truth mam@mouse.cmhnet.org | even if you choose to ignore it. (some of the old .sig viruses are still the best) 
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 [writing to someone else] but you, probably like me, seem to be a soft atheist. sorry for the flamage. can we get back to using the terms "strong atheist" and "weak atheist" rather than this "hard atheist" and "soft atheist". i can imagine future discussions with newbies where there is confusion because of the multiplication of descriptions. [rest deleted] mike mcangus | the truth is still the truth mam@mouse.cmhnet.org | even if you choose to ignore it. (some of the old .sig viruses are still the best) 
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 frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) writes ... #frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) writes ... #>plus questions for you: why do subjectivists/relativists/nihilists get so #>het up about the idea that relativism is *better* than objectivism? #to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the #truth than is objectivism, it provides more power and ability to #control events. i think you lose the right to talk about the truth once you say values are relative. accuracy is a value judgement, too. it so happens i agree with the substance of what you say below, but it's clear to me that at least *some* values are objective. truth is better than falsehood, peace is better than war, education is better than ignorance. we know these things, if we know anything. while i'll agree that these are generally held to be "good things", i question whether they come very close to being objective values. especially considering that at one time or another each has been viewed as being undesirable. i doubt you could even come up with anything that could be said to be universally "good" or "bad". and when i referred to "the truth" i was using the term hypothetically, realizing full well that there may not even be such a #assuming, for the moment, that morals _are_ relative, then two #relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute #truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that #produces the desired results. no they cannot, because they acknowledge up front that the desired results do not exist. that, after all, is the meaning of compromise. plus some problems: if the relativists have no values in common, compromise is impossible - what happens then? who, if anyone, is right? what happens if one relativist has a value "never compromise?". a value "plant bombs in crowded shopping areas"? after all, if morals are relative, these values cannot *meaningfully* be said to be incorrect. true enough. but they cannot be said to be anything more than personal morals. one thing notably lacking in most extremists is any sense of _personal_ accountability - the justification for any socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some "higher authority" (aka, absolute moral truth). #assuming that there is an absolute morality, two disagreeing #objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right; there #is no room for compromise. once you beleive in absolute morals, #you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees #with you is amoral. untrue. one can accept that one does not know the whole truth. part of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is better than rigidity, compromise is better than believing you have a lock on morals, etc. in the same way, i can believe in an objective reality without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse, or who shot an objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth? interesting notion. :-) certainly one can have as one's morals a belief that compromise is good. but to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most people do very successfully. i suppose one could hold compromise as being an absolute moral, but then what happens when someone else insists on no compromise? how do you compromise on compromising? #given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention, #i'd say that compromise seems to be "better". and i would agree. but it's bloody to pointless to speak of it if it's merely a matter of taste. is your liking for peace any better founded than someone else's liking for ice-cream? i'm looking for a way to say "yes" to that question, and relativism isn't it. almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing over another, be it morals or consequences, people only consider those aspects which justify a desired action or belief. in justifying a commitement to peace i might argue that it lets people live long & healthy and peaceful lives. while that much may well be true, it is incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war - killing off the most agressive member of society, trimming down the population, stimulating production. the equation is always more complex than presented. to characterize relative morals as merely following one's own conscience / desires is to unduly simplify it. ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche 
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 no, if you're going to claim something, then it is up to you to prove it. think "cold fusion". well, i've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you (or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding mating practices, etc. i don't think that these few cases are enough to disprove the general trend of natural morality. and, again, the mating practices need to be reexamined... so what you're saying is that your mind is made up, and you'll just explain away any differences at being statistically insignificant? try to find "immoral" non-mating-related activities. so you're excluding mating-related-activities from your "natural morality"? no, but mating practices are a special case. i'll have to think about it some more. so you'll just explain away any inconsistancies in your "theory" as being "a special case". yes, i think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the goal of species propogation in mind. but, i am not equating the two as you so think. that is, an objective system isn't necessarily the natural one. "a natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals follow". indeed. but, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems are not the natural one. so, the terms can not be equated. the natural system is a subset of the objective ones. you just equated them. re-read your own words. now, since homosexuality has been observed in most animals (including birds and dolphins), are you going to claim that "most animals" have the capacity of being immoral? i don't claim that homosexuality is immoral. it isn't harmful, although it isn't helpful either (to the mating process). and, when you say that homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?" a study release in 1991 found that 11% of female seagulls are lesbians. well, i'm saying that these goals are not inherent. that is why they must be postulates, because there is not really a way to determine them otherwise (although it could be argued that they arise from the natural goal--but they are somewhat removed). postulate: to assume; posit. that's right. the goals themselves aren't inherent. i can create a theory with a postulate that the sun revolves around the earth, that the moon is actually made of green cheese, and the stars are the portions of angels that intrudes into three-dimensional reality. you could, but such would contradict observations. now, apply this last sentence of your to your theory. notice how your are contridicting observations? i can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length of one side of a triangle, the length of a second side of the triangle, and the degree of angle connecting them, i can determine the length of the third side. but a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be true. i don't think your postulate would be valid. you don't know much math, do you? the ability to use sas to determine the length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry. guess which one people are going to be more receptive to. in order to assume something about your system, you have to be able to show that your postulates yes, and i think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work. you think they don't? or are they not good goals? goals <> postulates. again, if one of the "goals" of this "objective/natural morality" system you are proposing is "survival of the species", then homosexuality is =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= 
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 (attempting to define 'objective morality'): i'll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable. i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition), almost all would want to complain. so long as you keep that "almost" in there, freedom will be a mostly valuable thing, to most people. that is, i think you're really saying, "a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable to them". that's good, and a quite nice starting point for a moral system, but it's not universal, and thus not "objective". therefore i take it that to assert or believe that "freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on a rainy day. it isn't in sahara. disclaimer? "it's great to be young and insane!" 
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 natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive. wait. are we talking about ethics or morals here? is the distinction important? we see this countless times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for our own system as well. well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways. please describe these "number of ways" in detail. then explain the any contradictions that may arise. in order for humans to thrive, we seem to need to live in groups, here's your problem. "we *seem* to need". what's wrong with the highlighted i don't know. what is wrong? is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild? yes, it's possible, but it is difficult. humans are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success. define "difficult". and in order for a group to function effectively, it needs some sort of ethical code. this statement is not correct. isn't it? why don't you think so? explain the laws in america stating that you have to drive on the right- hand side of the road. and, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself, i am not trying to give you your tautology, but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal. propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality. so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral? after all, in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate as many women as possible. no. as noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality) isn't really destructive to the system. it is a worst neutral. so if every member of the species was homosexual, this wouldn't be destructive to the survival of the species? for that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates. when he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates. these seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot. again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined... the whole "theory" needs to be reexamined... =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= 
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 simple. take out some physics books, and start looking for statements which say that there is no objective physics. i doubt you will find any. you might find statements that there is no objective length, or no objective location, but no objective _physics_? perhaps you have a different understanding of what "physics" is. if we can't measure anything objectively, then the answers we get from physics aren't objective either. that's what i mean when i say there's no objective sure, we can all agree that (say) f = gmm/r^2, but that's maths. it's only physics when you relate it to the real world, and if we can't do that objectively, we're stuck. (of course, this displays my blatant bias towards applied science; but even theoretical physics gets applied to models of real world situations, based on real world observations.) (consider, for instance, that speed-of-light-in- vacuum is invariant. this sounds an awful lot like an objective speed-of-light-in-vacuum.) it's an axiom that it's invariant. but if the two of us measure it, we'll get different answers. yes, we call that experimental error, but it's not really "error" in the conventional sense; in fact, if you don't get any, that's an error :-) you could argue that the value of c is "objective, to within +/- <some value>". but i'd call that a rather odd usage of the word "objective", and it opens the way for statements like "murder is objectively wrong for all people, to within 1% of the total population." 
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 o'dwyer) says: specifically, i'd like to know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree. is it: (a) both are right (b) one of them is wrong, and sometimes (though perhaps rarely) we have a pretty good idea who it is (c) one of them is wrong, but we never have any information as to who, so we make our best guess if we really must make a decision. (d) the idea of a "right" moral judgement is meaningless (implying that whether peace is better than war, e.g., is a meaningless question, and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer) (e) something else. a short, positive assertion would be nice. as i hope you can tell, (b) and (c) are actually predicated on the assumption that values are real - so statements like these _can't_ consistently derive from the relativist assumption that values aren't part of objective reality. i am a relativist who would like to answer your question, but the way you phrase the question makes it unanswerable. the concepts of "right" and "wrong" (or "correct/incorrect" or "true/false") belong to the domain of epistemological rather than moral questions. it makes no sense to ask if a moral position is right or wrong, although it is legitimate to ask if it is good (or better than another position). let me illustrate this point by looking at the psychological derivatives of epistemology and ethics: perception and motivation, respectively. one can certainly ask if a percept is "right" (correct, true, veridical) or "wrong" (incorrect, false, illusory). but it makes little sense to ask if a motive is true or false. on the other hand, it is strange to ask whether a percept is morally good or evil, but one can certainly ask that question about motives. therefore, your suggested answers (a)-(c) simply can't be considered: they assume you can judge the correctness of a moral judgment. now the problem with (d) is that it is double-barrelled: i agree with the first part (that the "rightness" of a moral position is a meaningless question), for the reasons stated above. but that is irrelevant to the alleged implication (not an implication at all) that one cannot feel peace is better than war. i certainly can make value judgments (bad, better, best) without asserting the "correctness" of the position. sorry for the lengthy dismissal of (a)-(d). my short (e) answer is that when two individuals grotesquely disagree on a moral issue, neither is right (correct) or wrong (incorrect). they simply hold different moral values (feelings). john a. johnson (j5j@psuvm.psu.edu) department of psychology penn state dubois campus 15801 penn state is not responsible for my behavior. "a ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort. getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life." - from _lila_ by r. pirsig 
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 [this is swf in another indirect post via dan]. |> in article <1993apr17.184948.4847@microsoft.com> |> >the same way that any theory is proven false. you examine the |> >that the theory makes, and try to observe them. if you don't, or if you |> >observe things that the theory predicts wouldn't happen, then you have some |> >evidence against the theory. if the theory can't be modified to |> >incorporate the new observations, then you say that it is false. |> but how does one handle the nonrepeatability of the experiment? in many types of |> experiments the "prediction" is that the observed phenomena will happen again |> and be capable of being observed. for example, in chemistry someone may predict |> the outcome of a chemical reaction and then actually observe that |> repeatedly. there are several problems here. first, you are discussing only experimental procedures. observational procedures are also useful. the main criterion is attempting to verify an idea by using it to make prediction about as-yet unmade observations. the observations could be the result of an experiment, or they could be obsevations of activity occuring spontaneossly in nature, or they could even be observations of the lasting results of events long past. all that matters is that the observations be *new*. this is what prediction is about in science - it is *not* about predicting the future except in this very restricted secondly, repeatability can also take many forms. it is really just requirement that independent observers be able to verify the results. observation of a fossil is 'repeatable', since any qualified observer look at it (this is why the specimens are reqtined in a museum). also, there is the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will to the current one. new fossils are found often enough that this is tested regularly. many times a new fossil actually falsifies some conclusion made on the basis of previous fossils. unfortunately for you, the models that were falsified have alway been peripheral to the model of evolution we now have. (for instance, the front legs of tyrannosaurus rex turned out to have tremendous muscles, rather than being weakly endowed as previously believed). so, in fact, histoircal science findings *are* repeatable in the necessary sense. just becuase you cannot go out and repeat the event does *not* make it impossible to make valid observations. [this is not to say that biologists would not go coo-coo if extra- terrestrial life were discovered - that could make the determination of the process of abiogenesis relatively easy]. sarima@teradata.com (formerly tdatirv!sarima) stanley.friesen@elsegundoca.ncr.com sarima@teradata.com (formerly tdatirv!sarima) stanley.friesen@elsegundoca.ncr.com 
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 [interchange on hoban deleted] this post of mine also illustrates that i am not simply a reactionary who hates any book which doesn't go out of its way to avoid upsetting only those you haven't actually read? sorry, but the irony remains. i reiterate for the nth time also that i don't agree with k's fatwa, nor do i support censorship. my point in the original thread has been to show why rushdie is not particularly due sympathy by those who hold their religion in high esteem and don't enjoy seeing things which slander it (like the story of the satanic verses (as opposed to the rushdie's _tsv_)) played with for amusement. so although you don't agree with the fatwa, and apparently don't think rushdie should be killed for his book, yet you think he is not due sympathy for being being under this threat. furthermore you base this reaction solely on the fact that he wrote about a particular well-known story which -- if true -- might reflect poorly on the absolute truth of your religion. yet, this opinion is formed without recourse to actually looking to see how the story is used in context, accepting at face value the widespread propaganda on just what this book contains and what the author's motivations are. and then you come forward and recommend another book which touches on (presumably "plays with") religious/historical material because you find its overall presentation neutral! jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 faith and dogma are irrational. the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals. i disagree. in the end, the *individual* is responsible for his/her own irrationality. the individual's belief in some dogmatic religion is a symptom of that irrationality. have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists? atheists and agnostics, i would imagine, but yes, that was my point. an atheist would theoretically be just as ill-equipped to study the philosophy of religion as a christian, and yet there is a persistence of atheists among the ranks of philosophers. therefore, the conflict between one's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and the ability to be a philosopher must not be as great as you assert. the fact that most philosophers may be non-religious was a secondary point. science, (as would be practiced by atheists) in contrast, has a built in defence against faith and dogma. as opposed to science practiced by theists? be careful here. science does have a built-in defence against faith and dogma: skepticism. unfortunately, it is not foolproof. there is that wonderful little creature known as the "theory." many of us believe in the theory of evolution. we have no absolute proof that this theory is true, so why do we believe it? because it "makes more sense than...?" there is quite a bit of faith involved here. a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time, and, *and*, ****and***, a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way. well, not all current beliefs are deficient, but basically i agree. can you see the difference? science views beliefs as being flawed, and new information can be obtained to improve them. ideally, this is true. in reality, though, you have to acknowledge that scientists are human. scientists have egos and biases. some scientists assume a particular theory is true, refuse to admit the flaws in that theory because of ego problems or whatever, and proceed to spend their time and money trying to come up with absolute proof for the theory. remember cold fusion? by the way, i wasn't aware mass suicide was a problem. waco and jonestown were isolated incidents. mass suicides are far from common. clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this. it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could. not really. i agree that we spent far too much money on the waco crisis ($7,500,000 i believe), especially considering the outcome. my point was that mass suicides in the u.s. are rare (jonestown was in guyana, incidentally, although we footed the bill for the clean-up), and the u.s. has far more important issues to address. compare the number of u.s. citizens who have died in mass suicides with, say, the number of u.s. soldiers who died during one week of the vietnam war and you will see my point. --- __ _______ --- ||| kevin marshall \ \/ /_ _/ computer science department ||| ||| virginia tech \ / / / marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu ||| --- blacksburg, virginia \/ /_/ (703) 232-6529 --- 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54196">
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 |> >evolution, as i have said before, is theory _and_ fact. it is exactly |> >the same amount of each as the existence of atoms and the existence of |> >gravity. if you accept the existence of atoms and gravity as fact, |> >then you should also accept the existence of evolution as fact. |> >--andy |> i don't accept atoms or gravity as fact either. they are extremely useful |> mathematical models to describe physical observations we can make. |> other posters have aptly explained the atomic model. gravity, too, is |> very much a theory; no gravity waves have even been detected, but we |> have a very useful model that describes much of the behavior on |> objects by this thing we _call_ gravity. gravity, however, is _not_ |> a fact. it is a theoretical model used to talk about how objects |> behave in our physical environment. newton thought gravity was a |> simple vector force; einstein a wave. both are very useful models that |> have no religious overtones or requirements of faith, unless of course you |> want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly |> the way the theory now formulated talks about it. that takes a great |> leap of faith, which, of course, is what religion takes. evolution |> is no different. |> jim halat halat@bear.com |> bear-stearns --whatever doesn't kill you will only serve to annoy you-- |> nyc i speak only for myself what do you accept as a fact -- the roundness of the earth (after all, the ancient greeks thought it was a sphere, and then newton said it was a spheroid, and now people say it's a geoid [?])? yourself (isn't your personal identity just a theoretical construct to make sense of memories, feelings, perceptions)? i'm trying to think of anything that would be a fact for you. give some examples, and let's see how factual they are by your criteria (btw, what are your criteria?). "gravity is _not_ a fact": is that a fact? how about newton's and einstein's thoughts about gravity -- is it a fact that they had those thoughts? i don't see how any of the things that you are asserting are any more factual than things like gravity, atoms or in short, before i am willing to consider your concept of what a fact is, i'm going to have to have, as a minimum, some examples of what you think are facts. tom scharle |scharle@irishmvs room g003 computing center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu university of notre dame notre dame, in 46556-0539 usa 
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 "in mammon we trust" "hey, this is just a piece of paper!" "spend me quickly" "this is your god" (from john carpenter's "they live," natch) --steve "the lurking horror" stelter sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54199">
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 jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes: > ( in <1993apr16.163729.867@batman.bmd.trw.com> ) ( responding to dave "first with official a.a nickname" fuller ) the death penalty is a deterrent, dave. the person executed will never commit a crime again. guaranteed. [ ... ] that means that it is an effective anti-recidivism measure. it does not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime in the first place. the true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually stop one from murdering. (or commiting treason -- are there any other capital crimes anywhere in the usa?) that is, if there were no death penalty, would its introduction deter a would-be criminal from committing her/his crime? i doubt it. this is only the first step. even if it were a strong deterrent (short of being a complete deterrent) i would reject it. for what about the case of the innocent executed? and even if we could eliminate this possibility, i would reject the death penalty as immoral. this makes me something of a radical on the issue, although i think there are many opponents of captial punishment who agree with me, but who find the innocent executed the strongest argument to make. i would, if magically placed in charge, facilitate state-aided suicide for criminals who have life-sentences. this could be a replacement for capital punishment. those who don't want to live the rest of their lives in jail would always have this option. -- scott sauyet ssauyet@eagle.wesleyan.edu 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54200">
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 if some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok i would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong. my basis of morality is not on societal norms, or on current legalities. my basis is, surprise surprise, on both the bible and on inherent moral ah! but what, exactly, is "inherently abhorrent" and why is it so? what you're saying is, in effect, "i think some things are repulsive, and i know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me, so they should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever, period". which in and of itself is nice enough; to some extent i agree with you. but i do _not_ agree that things are 'inherently' or 'absolutely' immoral; they are labeled 'immoral' each for its own good reason, and if the reason can even theoretically change, then so can the label. yes, that's vague, and the only way i know off the top of my head to defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made. yes, that falls into the trap of creation, no it doesn't. humans are to some extent similar, because we all belong to the same species; that that species has evolved is another story altogether. to a certain extent evolution can even lend credence to moral absolutism (of a flavour). my arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust, goodness, love, respect, courage, and honesty in any society rather than deceipt, hatred, disrespect, "cowardness", and dishonesty. you're saying morality is what'll keep society alive and kicking. it is, i think, up to a point; but societies are not all alike, and neither are their moralities. no, i haven't been everywhere and seen everyone, but, according to my thesis, i don't have to, since i hold that we were all created similarly. similar != identical. if that makes an unfalsifiable thesis, just say so, and i'll both work out what i can and punt to fellow theists. no, it's falsifiable through finding someoe who was "created different", whatever that might be in the "real" world. disclaimer? "it's great to be young and insane!" 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54201">
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 |> >i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci, which |> >ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim |> >community in the uk and elsewhere. |> grow up, childish propagandist. gregg, i'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you.. you have done no such thing. bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank - what will someone bet me they weren't "real" islamic owners and an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules of islam in regard to banking. this is done explicitly by the bank. this was not the case with bcci. and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down the street? this is crap. bcci was motivated by the same motives as other international banks, with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments. so please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time. back to childish propaganda again. you really ought to get a life rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing. there are thousands of islamic banks operating throughout the world which no-one ever hears about. if you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about all the people who've been robbed by american banks. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54203">
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 in <1qlapk$d7v@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.stanford.edu (bruce salem) theory of creationism: my theistic view of the theory of creationism, (there are many others) is stated in genesis 1. in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. wonderful, now try alittle imaginative thinking! huh? imaginative thinking? what did that have to do with what i said? would it have been better if i said the world has existed forever and never was created and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of life from non-life? would that make me all-wise, and knowing, and no, but at least it would be a theory. | __l__ -|- ___ warren kurt vonroeschlaub | | o | kv07@iastate.edu |/ `---' iowa state university /| ___ math department | |___| 400 carver hall | |___| ames, ia 50011 j _____ 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54217">
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 : but how do we know that you're representing the real christians? : bill, you're an asshole. get lost. i see that you still can't grasp the obvious, is it because your are devious by nature, or can you only find fault with an argument by misrepresenting it? i plainly said that i was stating the christian position as i understand it, i did not say whether i agree with it since my point was that the only flaws in that position are those atheists invent. i have never claimed to be an expert on anything and especially christianity, but i have made it an object of pretty intense study over the years, so i feel qualified to discuss what its general propositions are. what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against, (which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said) this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me. as usual, you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff, why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss, or can you even tell me what the issues are? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54218">
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 |> many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of |> religion; they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and |> then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself |> as ridiculous. by their own devices, they establish a new religion, a |> mythology. you mean bobby mozumder is a myth? we wondered about that. |> the point of course, is to erect an easy target and deflect the |> disputants away from the real issue - atheism. the fictional christian |> or moslem or jew who is supposed to believe the distorted |> representation of their beliefs presented here, is therefore made to |> seem a fool and his/her arguments can thereby be made to appear |> ludicrous. the mythology is the misrepresentations of religion used |> here as fact. you mean bobby mozumder didn't really post here? we wondered about that, too. so, mr conner. is bobby mozumder a myth, a performing artist, a real moslem. a crackpot, a provocateur? you know everything and read all minds: why don't you tell us? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54219">
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 many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of religion; they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself as ridiculous. by their own devices, they establish a new religion, a that is not an "atheism mythology" in any sense of the word. "religious paradoy" would be significantly more appropriate. the 2nd part is rendered null and void by the simple fact that i do know several "strong" atheists. i am sure that others do. i myself am "strong" in the sense that i find the standard concept of god without any meaning. any attempt to bring meaning either results in the destruction of the viability of language, or in internal self contradiction. the concept of strong atheism is not just a whimsical fantasy. they, and i, exist. your strawman is pointless and weak. private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54221">
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 what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against, (which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said) this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me. as usual, you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff, why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss, or can you even tell me what the issues are? let me guess: you're not a psycho-analyst in real life, but you play one on alt.atheism. right? is esp something you have been given by god? private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54223">
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 ::date: sun, 25 apr 1993 10:13:30 gmt ::from: fred rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au: ::the qur'an talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for ::their "god". ::i think this probably encompasses most atheists. :: fred rice :: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au :as well as all the muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes in :thailand. got a better quote? i wonder if the above quote forms the justification for athiesm, and the equanimity with which their belief is arrived at!!!!! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54224">
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 : >i think you're letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of : (webster: myth: "a traditional or legendary story... : ...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.") : how does that qualify? : indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance. : i've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as : "accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend. : many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but : they don't meet the other criterions. the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd. rather than approach religion (including christainity) in a rational manner and debating its claims -as the are stated-, atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don't have. what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like, reasonable atheist. : >divine justice. according to the most fundamental doctrines of : >christianity, when the first man sinned, he was at that time the : you accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to : launch your own xtian mythology. (this time meeting all the : requirements of myth.) here's a good example of of what i said above. read the post again, i said, "acoording to ...", which means i am referring to christian doctrine (as i understand it), if i am speaking for myself you'll know it. my purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of christain doctrines since it seemed germane. : >with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it : >means. when atheists claim that they do -not- know if god exists and : >don't know what he wants, they contradict the bible which clearly says : >that -everyone- knows. the authority of the bible is its claim to be : ...should i repeat what i wrote above for the sake of getting : it across? you may trust the bible, but your trusting it doesn't : make it any more credible to me. : if the bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason : to doubt the bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged : god's alleged existance. again i am paraphrasing christian doctrine which is very clear on this point, your dispute is not with me ... : >refuted while the species-wide condemnation is justified. those that : >claim that there is no evidence for the existence of god or that his will is : >unknown, must deliberately ignore the bible; the ignorance itself is : >no excuse. : 1) no, they don't have to ignore the bible. the bible is far : from universally accepted. the bible is not a proof of god; : it is only a proof that some people have thought that there : was a god. (or does it prove even that? they might have been : writing it as series of fiction short-stories. as in the : case of dionetics.) assuming the writers believed it, the : only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it. : and that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the : interpretations and biblical-philosophers were correct. : 2) there are people who have truly never heard of the bible. : 3) again, read the faq. 1) here again you miss the point. the bible itself is not the point, it's what it contains. it makes no difference who accpets the bible or even who's unaware of its existence, christians hold that it applies universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate and the same innate knowledge of god. 2) see above 3) if you read my post with same care as read the faq, we wouldn't be having this conversation. : >freedom. you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to : >ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known : >in both cases. that an atheist can't accept the evidence means only : bzzt...wrong answer! : gravity is directly there. it doesn't stop exerting a direct and : rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it. god, on the : other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except : on the tabloids. god doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence. : gravity is obvious; gods aren't. as i said, the evidence is there, you just don't accept it, here at least we agree. : >secondly, human reason is very comforatble with the concept of god, so : >much so that it is, in itself, intrinsic to our nature. human reason : >always comes back to the question of god, in every generation and in : no, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of : "god"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god". : in other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian : god, it comes back to whether there is any god. and, in much : of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as : the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces : are and which ones are out there. from a world-wide view, : human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to : be and/or what force(s) are currently in control. a natural : tendancy to believe in "god" only exists in religious wishful : thinking. yes, human reason does always come back to the existence of god, we're having this discussion are we not? : >i said all this to make the point that christianity is eminently : >reasonable, that divine justice is just and human nature is much : >different than what atheists think it is. whether you agree or not : you certainly are not correct on human nature. you are, at : the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric : approach. try looking at the outside world as well when : you attempt to sum up all of humanity. well this is interesting, truth is to be determined by it politically correct content. granted it's extremely unhip to be a wasp male, and anything european is contemptable, but i thought this kind of dialogue, the purpose of a.a, was to get at the truth of things. but then i remember the oxymoron, reasonalble atheist, and i understand. 
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 : i agree, i had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother : who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings. : i preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided : the truth itself. life is hard. truly a brilliant rebuttal. apparently you are of the opinion that ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason; you'll find plenty of company a.a 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54227">
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 well, in 1984 one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority. one _is_ free to leave islam. if one regards islamic law as a curse one should consider leaving islam. the only way out seems to be death. " i'd cheat on hillary too." john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling "traditional family values." 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54231">
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 i don't think so. although some forms of execution are painful (the electric chair looks particularly so), i think the pain is relatively short-lived. drawing and quartering, on the other hand, looks very painful, and the victim wouldn't die right away (he'd bleed to death, i'd imagine). ah, so a cruel punishment is not just if it is painful, as you origionally stated. it is about long term pain, eg: non short-lived. why this sudden chance in your stance? i don't think i've changed my stance at all. my original stance was that a painless execution was not a cruel one. i didn't say what would be considered cruel, only that a painless death wasn't. now, cruelty must involve some sort of suffering, i believe. i don't think someone that gets shot in the head or electrocuted really suffers very much. even a hanging probably produces one sharp instance of pain, but it's over so quickly... could it be that a counter example has been made, which renders your previous stance null and void? why don't you admit that your previous stance is incorrect? or, if you somehow managed to slip up, and misstated your origional stance, why not admit it? no. well, again i stated that a painless death isn't cruel, but i don't think i stated that all painful executions *are* cruel. i think that some are cruel, depending on the nature and duration of the pain. by the way, how long is too long? anything more than an instant, i guess. any death by suffocation asphyxiation, or blood loss would be cruel, i think (this includes the gas chamber, and drawing and quartering). i'd say that any pain that lasts, say, over twenty seconds or so would be too long (but this may be an arbitrary cutoff, i suppose). 
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 |>i love god just as much as she loves me. if she wants to seduce me, |>she'll know what to do. but if he/she did you would probably consider it rape. of course not. i would think that would be great _fun_, not having ever felt the joy and peace the christians speak of with a longing gaze. this is not what i got when i believed - i just tried to hide my fear of getting punished for something i never was sure of. the bible is hopelessly confusing for someone who wants to know for sure. god did not answer. in the end, i found i had been following a mass delusion, a lie. i can't believe in a being who refuses to give a slightest hint of her existence. obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe. so .. ? i suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe and analyse their position. in fact, it is amusing to note in this context that many fundamentalist publications tell us exactly the opposite - one should not examine one's belief critically. i'll tell you something i left out of my 'testimony' i posted to this group two months ago. a day after i finally found out my faith is over, i decided to try just one more time. the same cycle of emotional responses fired once again, but this time the delusion lasted only a couple of hours. i told my friend in a phone that it really works, thank god, just to think about it again when i hung up. i had to admit that i had lied, and fallen prey to the same illusion. no one asks you to swallow everything, in fact jesus warns against it. but let me ask you a question. do you beleive what you learn in history class, or for that matter anything in school. i mean it's just what other people have told you and you don't want to swallow what others say. right ... ? i used to believe what i read in books when i was younger, or what other people told me, but i grew more and more skeptical the more i read. i learned what it means to use _reason_. as a student of chemistry, i had to perform a qualitative analysis of a mixture of two organic compounds in the lab. i _hated_ experiments like this - they are old-fashioned and increase the student's workload considerably. besides, i had to do it twice, since i failed in my first attempt. however, i think i'll never forget the lesson: no matter how strongly you believe the structure of the unknown is x, it may still be y. it is _very_ tempting to jump into conclusions, take a leap of faith, assure oneself, ignore the data which is inconsistent. but it can still be wrong. i found out that i was, after all, using exactly the same mechanism to believe in god - mental self-assurance, suspension of fear, filtering of information. in other words, it was only me, no god playing any part. the life , death, and resurection of christ is documented historical fact. oh? and i had better believe this? dan, many ufo stories are much better documented than the resurrection of jesus. the resurrection is documented quite haphazardly in the bible - it seems the authors did not pay too much attention to which wild rumour to leave out. besides, the ends of the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions; for instance, the end of mark (16:9-20) is missing from many early texts, says my bible. jesus may have lived and died, but he was probably misunderstood. as much as anything else you learn. how do you choose what to believe and what not to? this is easy. i believe that the world exists independent of my mind, and that logic and reason can be used to interpret and analyse what i observe. nothing else need to be taken on faith, i will go by the it makes no difference whether i believe george washington existed or not. i assume that he did, considering the vast amount of evidence presented. there is no way to get into a sceptical heart. you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have. you must trust, not just go to church and participate in it's activities. were you ever willing to die for what you believed? a liar, how do you know what my attitude was? try reading your bible i was willing to die for my faith. those who do are usually remembered as heroes, at least among those who believe. dan, do you think i'm lying when i say i believed firmly for 15 years? it seems it is very difficult to admit that someone who has really believed does not do so anymore. but i can't go on lying to myself. blind trust is dangerous, and i was just another blind led by the blind. but if god really wants me, she'll know what to do. i'm willing. i just don't know whether she exists - looking at the available evidence, it looks like she doesn't. ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 [by default, followups to 3 newsgroups.] a short excerpt: brookfield, wis. (upi) -- a mother has filed a complaint with the elmbrook school board alleging her son's elementary school and its parent-teacher organization show discrimination by supporting the boy gisele klemp said wednesday the pto's sponsorship of a boy scout troop and cub scout pack that meet at hillside elementary school in surbarban milwaukee is discrimination because the boy scouts ban pto president gail pludeman disputed the charges of discrimination and said she believes the boy scouts are beneficial. carl kadie -- i do not represent any organization; this is just me. = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = 
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 |> okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful |> monsters. the human race didn't evolve from one set parents, but from |> thousands. do you really base your atheist on -this-? |> truly a brilliant rebuttal. apparently you are of the opinion that |> ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason; you'll find plenty of |> company a.a bill conner, meet bill conner. 
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 no. well, again i stated that a painless death isn't cruel, but i don't think i stated that all painful executions *are* cruel. i think that some are cruel, depending on the nature and duration of the pain. but hanging is certainly painful. or, do you not let the condemned know they are going to die? anything more than an instant, i guess. any death by suffocation asphyxiation, or blood loss would be cruel, i think (this includes the gas chamber, and drawing and quartering). i'd say that any pain that lasts, say, over twenty seconds or so would be too long (but this may be an arbitrary cutoff, i suppose). hanging is not supposed to be very pleasant. i believe that in actuality, it is not "quick and clean". however, gas chambers can be quite non-painful. heck, why not give them a good time? suffication by nitrious oxide! private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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 [stuff about hard to find atheist books deleted] perhaps the infiltration of fundies onto school boards, city councils, etc. has something to do with why you can't find alternative media? 
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 cmtan@iss.nus.sg (tan chade meng - dan) writes: > somebody forgotten me................ "no nickname" tan chade meng (chinese have nicknames in the front) the unenlightened one i thought your nickname was "unenlightened" maddi hausmann madhaus@netcom.com centigram communications corp san jose california 408/428-3553 kids, please don't try this at home. remember, i post professionally. 
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 quoting schnitzi@eustis.cs.ucf.edu (mark schnitzius) in article <schnitzi.735603785@eustis>: i'm sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov's atheism. can someone confirm this? someone told me that asimov converted to christianity at some point, or something. does anyone have any good what? absolutely not. no way. asimov was a lifelong atheist, and said so many times, right until his death. judging from the many stories he told about his own life, he felt culturally closest to judaism, which makes sense. he was born jewish. ed@wente.llnl.gov 
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 : in article <c5mw03.9qr@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu : > i'd say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is : > interpreted and what significance it's given depends a great deal on : > the values of the observer. science is a human activity and as such, : > is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human : > activity. the myth that scientists are above moral influence or : > ethical concern, that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure : > from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist, is nonsense. : bill, this is wonderfully phrased. i assume you understand that your : statement is also undermining such human constructs as religion : as well. i'll accept this as a compliment although i'm always a little paranoid when visiting a.a, thanks. yes i do know the extent of the statements relevence, it's what i think of as human nature. i'm not sure it undermines either religion or atheism since both claim special knowledge about the truth and since such claims are always suspect, all we can learn from it is that humans are a very arrogant species. my point is that we cannot ignore human nature when examining human claims. the trick here then, is to find some way to abstract our infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality is out there so we can see what there is to see. i can think of no way this can be done. 
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 : precisely my position. : as a newbie, i tried the point-by-point approach to debate with : these types. it wasted both my time and my lifespan. ignoring : them is not an option, since they don't go away, and doing so : would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this : group. i've posted here long enough to see your name a few times, but i can't recall any point by point approach to anything you've contributed. but i'm old (probably senile) and i may have just forgotten, if you could post an example of your invincible logic, it might jog my memory. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54249">
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 free-energy technology by robert e. mcelwaine, physicist ninety to a hundred years ago, everybody "knew" that a heavier-than-air machine could not possibly fly. it would violate the "laws" of physics. all of the "experts" and "authorities" said so. for example, simon newcomb declared in 1901: "the demonstration that no possible combination of known substances, known forms of machinery and known forms of force, can be united in a practical machine by which man shall fly long distances through the air, seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the demonstration of any physical fact to be." fortunately, a few smart people such as the wright brothers did not accept such pronouncements as the final word. now we take airplanes for granted, (except when they crash). today, orthodox physicists and other "scientists" are saying similar things against several kinds of 'free energy' technologies, using negative terms such as "pseudo-science" and "perpetual motion", and citing so-called "laws" which assert that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" ("1st law of thermodynamics") and "there is always a decrease in useful energy" ("2nd law of thermodynamics"). the physicists do not know how to do certain things, so they arrogantly declare that those things cannot be done. such principles of impotence are common in orthodox modern "science" and help to cover up inconsistencies and contradictions in orthodox modern theories. free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe, with- out burning any kind of fuel, making them the perfect solution to the world-wide energy crisis and its associated pollution, degradation, and depletion of the environment. most free energy devices probably do not create energy, but rather tap into existing natural energy sources by various forms of induction. unlike solar or wind devices, they need little or no energy storage capacity, because they can tap as much energy as needed when needed. solar energy has the dis-advantage that the sun is often blocked by clouds, trees, buildings, or the earth itself, or is reduced by haze or smog or by thick atmosphere at low altitudes and high latitudes. likewise, wind speed is widely variable and often non-existent. neither solar nor wind power are suitable to directly power cars and airplanes. properly designed free energy devices do not have such limitations. for example, at least three u.s. patents (#3,811,058, #3,879,622, and #4,151,431) have so far been awarded for motors that run exclusively on permanent magnets, seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth's magnetic field. the first two require a feedback network in order to be self-running. the third one, as described in detail in "science & mechanics" magazine, spring 1980, ("amazing magnet-powered motor", by jorma hyypia, pages 45-48, 114-117, and front cover), requires critical sizes, shapes, orientations, and spacings of magnets, but no feedback. such a motor could drive an electric generator or reversible heatpump in one's home, year round, for free. [complete descriptive copies of u.s. patents are $3.00 each from the u.s. patent office, 2021 jefferson davis hwy., arlington, va 22202; correct 7-digit patent number required. or try getting copies of both the article and the patents via your local public or university library's inter-library loan dept..] a second type of free-energy device, such as the 'gray motor' (u.s. patent #3,890,548), the 'tesla coil', and the motor of inventor joseph newman [see science, 2-10-84, pages 571-2.], taps electro-magnetic energy by induction from 'earth resonance' (about 12 cycles per second plus harmonics). they typically have a 'spark gap' in the circuit which serves to synchronize the energy in the coils with the energy being tapped. it is important that the total 'inductance' and 'capacitance' of the device combine to 'resonate' at the same frequency as 'earth resonance' in order to maximize the power output. this output can also be increased by centering the spark gap at the 'neutral center' of a strong u-shaped permanent magnet. in the case of a tesla coil, slipping a 'toroid choke coil' around the secondary coil will enhance output power. ["earth energy: fuelless propulsion & power systems", by john bigelow, 1976, health research, p.o. box 70, mokelumne hill, ca 95245.] during the 1930's, an austrian civil engineer named viktor schauberger invented and partially developed an 'implosion turbine' (german name, 'zokwendle'), after analyzing erosion, and lack of erosion, in differently shaped waterways, and developing sophisticated mathematical equations to explain it. as described in the book "a breakthrough to new free-energy sources", by dan a. davidson, 1977, water is pumped by an impeller pump through a logarithmic-spiral-shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a critical velocity. the water then implodes, no longer touching the inside walls of the tubing, and drives the pump, which then converts the pump's motor into an electric generator. the device seems to be tapping energy from that of the earth's rotation, via the 'coriolis effect', like a tornado. [ it can also neutralize gravity! ] a fourth type of free energy device is the 'mcclintock air motor' (u.s. patent #2,982,261), which is a cross between a diesel engine (it has three cylinders with a compression ratio of 27 to 1) and a rotary engine (with solar and planetary gears). it burns no fuel, but becomes self-running by driving its own air compressor. this engine also generates a lot of heat, which could be used to heat buildings; and its very high torque makes it ideal for large trucks, preventing their slowing down when climbing hills. [david mcclintock is also the real original inventor of the automatic transmission, differential, and 4-wheel drive.] crystals may someday be used to supply energy, as shown in the star trek shows, perhaps by inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a common household smoke detector. one other energy source should be mentioned here, despite the fact that it does not fit the definition of free energy. a bulgarian-born american physicist named joseph maglich has invented and partially developed an atomic fusion reactor which he calls 'migma', which uses non-radioactive deuterium as a fuel [available in nearly unlimited quantities from sea water], does not produce radioactive waste, can be converted directly into electricity (with-out energy-wasting steam turbines), and can be constructed small enough to power a house or large enough to power a city. and unlike the "tokamaks" and laser fusion monstrosities that we read about, migma works, already producing at least three watts of power for every watt put in. ["new times" (u.s. version), 6-26-78, pages 32-40.] and then there are the 'cold fusion' experiments that have been in the news lately, originally conducted by university of utah researchers b. stanley pons and martin fleischmann. some u.s. navy researchers at the china lake naval weapons center in california, under the direction of chemist melvin miles, finally took the trouble to collect the bubbles coming from such an apparatus, had them analyzed with mass-spectrometry techniques, and found helium 4, which proves that atomic fusion did indeed take place, and enough of it to explain the excess heat generated. there are good indications that the two so-called "laws" of thermodynamics are not so "absolute". for example, the late physicist dewey b. larson developed a comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, which he calls the 'reciprocal system', (which he describes in detail in several books such as "nothing but motion" (1979) and "the universe of motion" (1984)), in which the physical universe has two distinct halves, the material half and an anti-matter half, with a continuous cycle of matter and energy passing between them, with-out the "heat death" predicted by thermodynamic "laws". his theory explains the universe much better than modern orthodox theories, including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about, and is self-consistent in every way. some free energy devices might be tapping into that energy flow, seemingly converting "low-quality energy" into "high-quality energy". also, certain religious organizations such as 'sant mat' and 'eckankar' teach their members that the physical universe is only the lowest of at least a dozen major levels of existence, like parallel universes, or analogous to tv channels, as described in books like "the path of the masters", by dr. julian johnson, 1939, and "eckankar: the key to secret worlds", by sri paul twitchell, 1969. for example, the next level up from the physical universe is commonly called the 'astral plane'. long-time members of these groups have learned to 'soul travel' into these higher worlds and report on conditions there. it seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe, or be created at the boundary between them, given the right configuration of matter to channel it. this is supported by many successful laboratory-controlled experiments in psycho-kinesis throughout the world, such as those described in the book "psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain". in terms of economics, the market has failed. inventors do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop and mass-produce free energy equipment, and the conventional energy producer$ have no desire to do so because of their ve$ted intere$t$. the government is needed to intervene. if the government does not intervene, then the total supply of energy resources from the earth will continue to decline and will soon run out, prices for energy will increase, and pollution and its harmful effects (including the 'greenhouse effect', acid rain, smog, radioactive contamination, oil spills, rape of the land by strip mining, etc.) will continue to increase. the government should subsidize research and development of free energy by inventors and universities, subsidize private production (until the producers can make it on their own), and subsidize consumption by low-income consumers of free energy hardware. the long-range effects of such government intervention would be wide-spread and profound. the quantity of energy demanded from conventional energy producer$ (coal mining companie$, oil companie$ and countries, electric utilitie$, etc.) would drop to near zero, forcing their employees to seek work elsewhere. energy resources (coal, uranium, oil, and gas) would be left in the ground. prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop to near zero, while the price of free energy equipment would start out high but drop as supply increases (as happened with vcr's, personal computers, etc.). costs of producing products that require large quantities of energy to produce would decrease, along with their prices to consumers. consumers would be able to realize the "opportunity costs" of paying electric utility bills or buying home heating fuel. tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have to spend their money for gasoline for their cars. government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have to be obtained in some other way. and energy could no longer be used as a motive or excuse for making war. many conventional energy producer$ would go out of business, but society as a whole, and the earth's environment and ecosystems, would benefit greatly. it is the people, that government should serve, rather than the big corporation$ and bank$. for more information, answers to your questions, etc., please consult my cited sources (patents, articles, books). un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine b.s., physics, uw-ec 
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 let us go back , oh say 1000 years or so, whatever. pretend someone says to you someday there will be men on the moon. (now remember, you still think the world is flat). this is quite an extraordinary claim. i think c.s. lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world is flat. however, this argument goes both ways. pretend someone telling plato that it is highly probable that people do not really have souls; their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make up, and their brains (their body) is actually ahead of their mind even in voluntarly actions. i don't think plato would have been happy with this, and neither would paul, although paul's ideas were quite different. however, if you would _read_ what we discuss in this group, and not just preach, you would see that there currently is much evidence in favour of these statements. the same applies to the theory of natural selection, or other sacred cows of christianity on our origins and human nature. i don't believe in spirits, devils or immortal souls any more than in gods. the fact is we can argue the existence of god until the end of time, there really is no way to either prove or disprove it, but there will be a time when we all know the truth. i hope and believe i'm right and i hope and pray that you find your way too. ah, you said it. you believe what you want to. this is what i had assumed all along. ok maybe i shouldn't have said "no way". i guess i really believe there is a way. but all i can do is plant seeds. either they grow or they don't. you might be as well planting satan's seeds, ever thought of this? besides, you haven't yet explained why we must believe so blindly, without any guiding light at all (at least i haven't noticed it). i don't think this is at all fair play on god's part. your argument sounds like a version of pascal's wager. please read the faq, this fallacy is discussed there. they won't if they're not planted. the holy spirit is the nurishment that helps them grow and that comes from god. and i failed to get help from the hs because i had a wrong attitude? sorry, dan, but i do not think this spirit exists. people who claim to have access to it just look badly deluded, not gifted. ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe, with- out burning any kind of fuel, making them the perfect solution to the world-wide energy crisis and its associated pollution, degradation, and depletion of the environment. give me a call when you build a working model. then we'll talk stock options. private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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 in this respect, since atheists are dominantly arrogant and claim self-control and self-ownership, they would make pharoahs look like very humble, decent people in comparison! if the logic is this: "since i own myself, others who are like me should also own themselves, and going further, things are self-existent and self-standing, and self-living, etc." yes, atheists tend to claim self control and self ownership. are you saying that theists claim to not have self control? i don't think atheists are "dominantly arrogant." they don't claim some god that has supremacy over all of mankind. now this claim would be arrogant, but atheists don't claim it. most atheists do claim to own themselves. i think any disagreement with this claim of self ownership would be supremely arrogant. /---- john david munch ------------------ jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu ----\ |...." the heart can change, be full of hate, or love. if people are allowed| |to base their lives through their hearts, anything can happen. a dangerous | |situation, in my opinion." -bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism| 
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 as per various threads on science and creationism, i've started dabbling into a book called christianity and the nature of science by jp moreland. as i don't know this book, i will use your heresay. a question that i had come from one of his comments. he stated that god is not necessarily a religious term, but could be used as other scientific terms that give explanation for events or theories, without being a proven scientific it depends on how he defines god. the way i understand the meaning of that term preclues it being used in a useful way in science. ideas drawn from an understanding that god is supernatural precludes us from forming scientific assertions that can be falsified, that is, where we can decide that they are true or false within the terms of we use and useful observations drawn from them. some religionists have an interest in bluring the definitions within science to make them more reconcilable, and especially subserviant in a basic way, to religious dogma. this pursuit always fails. i think i got his point -- i can quote the section if i'm being vague. the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates. are there explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves, or can everything be quantified, measured, tested, etc.? reconciliation of science with religion involves circumventing the tendancy to claim that either pursuit can gain absolute or certian knowledge, or that the domain of truth in each is fundementally limited in some way. it gererally confurs the element of uncertainty and limitations to human knowledge while allowing for the different concerns of these separate pursuits. science and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional answers, at best. science is distinctly limited in where it can ask meaningful questions. more questions can be posed than it can answer. at the basis of sacred language is the place where words fail us and mere assertions disolve in contradiction. bruce salem 
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 so when they took the time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly, that includes "obvious corruptions?" well, yes. this is the real mystery of the matter, and why i am rather dubious of a lot of the source theories. there are a number of places where the masoretic text (mt) of the ot is obscure and presumably corrupted. these are reproduced exactly from copy to copy. the dss tend to reflect the same "errors". this would appear to tell us that, at least from some point, people began to copy the texts very exactingly and mechanically. the problem is, we don't know what they did before that. but it seems as though accurate transmission begins at the point at which the texts are perceived as texts. they may be added to (and in some situations, such as the end of mark, material is lost), but for the most part there are no substantial changes to the existing text. you're basically trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. some people like to use the game of "telephone" as a metaphor for the transmission of the texts. this clearly wrong. the texts are transmitted accurately. c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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 br> from: wpr@atlanta.dg.com (bill rawlins) br> newsgroups: alt.atheism br> organization: dgsid, atlanta, ga br> the problem is that most scientists exclude the br> possibility of the supernatural in the question of br> origins. is this is a fair premise? i utterly br> reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of br> truth. it is better than the crap that the creationists put out. so far all they have been able to manage is distortions and half-truths. (when they are not taking quotes out of context...) br> some of these so-called human-like creatures were br> apes. some were humans. some were fancifully br> reconstructed from fragments. the genetic code has shown more about how man is realted to primates that the fossil record. (a little detail the creationists try and ignore.) br> good deeds do not justify a person in god's br> sight. an atonement (jesus) is needed to atone br> for sin. who says? your bible(tm)? i would be surprised if *any* christian followed all of the rules in the bible. (most of them just pick and choose, according to the local biases.) br> my point: god is the creator. look's like we agree. where is your proof? how do you know it was *your* god? br> i'll send you some info via e-mail. br> regards, bill. why not post them? i would be interested in seeing them myself. 
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<answer instance="alt.atheism54260" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 mc> theory of creationism: my theistic view of the theory of mc> creationism, (there are many others) is stated in genesis mc> 1. in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. and which order of creation do you accept? the story of creation is one of the many places in the bible where the story contradicts itself. the following is an example... gen 1:25 and god made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and god saw that it was good. gen 1:26 and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. gen 2:18 and the lord god said, it is not good that the man should be alone; i will make him an help meet for him. gen 2:19 and out of the ground the lord god formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. even your bible cannot agree on how things were created. why should we believe in it? 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54261">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54261" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 rh> from: house@helios.usq.edu.au (ron house) rh> newsgroups: alt.atheism rh> organization: university of southern queensland first i want to start right out and say that i'm a christian. it rh> i _know_ i shouldn't get involved, but... :-) rh> [bit deleted] the book says that jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a modern day koresh) or he was actually who he said he was. [rest of rant deleted] this is a standard argument for fundies. can you spot the falicy? the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed. so far, they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance. most of them try it using the (very) flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it, but those writers use very flawed sources. (if they are real sources at all, some are not.) when will they ever learn to do real research, instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores. rh> righto, dan, try this one with your cornflakes... rh> the book says that muhammad was either a liar, or he was rh> crazy ( a modern day mad mahdi) or he was actually who he rh> said he was. some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as rh> follows. who would die for a lie? wouldn't people be able rh> to tell if he was a liar? people gathered around him and rh> kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh> son-in-law made the sun stand still. call me a fool, but i rh> believe he did make the sun stand still. rh> niether was he a lunatic. would more than an entire nation rh> be drawn to someone who was crazy. very doubtful, in fact rh> rediculous. for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh> mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see this right rh> away. rh> therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have rh> been the real thing. nice rebutal! 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54262">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54262" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 bobbe@vice (robert beauchaine;6086;59-323;lp=a;yayg) pontificated: i guess i don't understand the problem. i've never had any problem swearing and using the name of "god" in the same sentence. comes quite naturally, as a matter of facxt. i would guess that you either mean that you don't have a problem swearing aligance to a non-existant being or that you are being deliberatily dense (considering what group this is). it doesn't come "quite naturally" to nonbelievers such as myself or even to followers of other religions. would you say it would be quite natural if you were forced to swear by "allah" or "budda"? /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "at all times and in all nations, | | the priest has been hostile to liberty." | | <thomas jefferson> | 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54468">
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 it had to happen: the old allegation of the "deathbed conversion" of the noted unbeliever... [other examples] what all of these "deathbed conversion" claims have in common is that they are utterly unsubstantiated, and almost certainly untrue. i would not be too quick to say that they are almost certainly untrue. even strong minded people may fall back on childhood indoctrination, grasp at straws, or do other strange things when faced with extreme suffering, not to mention physiological problems which may lead to diminished mental capacity. at the risk of restarting an old argument and accusations of appeal to authority i remind readers of what i posted a while back as a kind of obituary for the late atheist dr. albert sabin. in an old interview rebroadcast on public radio just after his death he told about a time a few years before when he was stricken with a very serious illness. he admitted to having cried out to god while critically ill and on a respirator. as it turned out he recovered and lived several more years. after his recovery he attributed this to early indoctrination. don't say it couldn't happen to you, or that it hasn't happened to others, even if you are one of the few people who have experienced things like this. people are different. i admire dr. sabin for admitting his human weakness in that instance. i would not think less of asimov for similar weakness. nevertheless i agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may well be untrue. in any case they are not evidence for anything besides the power of early indoctrination and human frailty. bill mayne 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54470">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54470" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 you blashephemers!!! you will all go to hell for not believing in god!!!! be prepared for your eternal damnation!!! readers of the group. how convenient that he doesn't have a real name... let's start up the letters to the sysadmin, shall we? his real name is jeremy scott noonan. vmoper@psuvm.psu.edu should have at least some authority, or at least know who to email. postmast@psuvm.bitnet respectively p_rfowles or p_wverity (the sys admins) at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54472">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54472" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 "and it is he (god almighty) who created the night and the day, and the sun and the earth: all (the celetial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course." (holy quran 21:33) hmm. this agrees with the ptolemic system of the earth at the centre, with the planets orbitting round it. so copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all! you haven't read very carefully -- if you look again, you will see that it doesn't say anything about what is circling what. anyway, they are not moving in circles. nor is there any evidence that everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense. wishy- washy statements are not scientific. 
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<instance id="alt.atheism54481">
<answer instance="alt.atheism54481" senseid="alt.atheism"/>
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 (deletion) that's was the original answer. while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass, it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not i don't see a header referring to bob as the poster to whom i was responding. i distinctly remember thinking i was responding to you when i wrote this, in which case i would make no apologies. but in the event that i _was_ in fact responding to bob, i hereby apologize to bob for _insinuating_ such a thing. sorry bob. on the other hand, it could be that ben has his head so far up his ass that he can't tell himself from bob. sorry, gregg, it was no answer to a post of mine. and you are quite fond of using abusing language whenever you think your religion is misrepresented. by the way, i have no trouble telling me apart from bob beauchaine. i still wait for your answer to that the quran allows you to beat your wife into submission. you were quite upset about the claim that it was in it, to be more correct, you said it wasn't. i asked you about what your consequences were in case it would be in the quran, but you have simply ceased to respond on that thread. can it be that you have found out in the meantime that it is the holy book? what are your consequences now? was your being upset just a show? do you simple inherit your morals from a book, ie is it suddenly ok now? is it correct to say that the words of muhammad reflect the primitive machism of his society? or have you spent your time with your new gained freedom? 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37261">
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 call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday, june 22, 1993 carderock division, naval surface warfare center (formerly the david taylor research center) bethesda, maryland sponsor: ness (navy engineering software system) is sponsoring a one-day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar. the purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs, research, developments, and applications. presentations: presentations are solicited on all aspects of navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality. all current work, works-in-progress, and proposed work by navy organizations will be considered. four types of presentations are 1. regular presentation: 20-30 minutes in length 2. short presentation: 10 minutes in length 3. video presentation: a stand-alone videotape (author need not attend the seminar) 4. scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration (byoh) accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings, however, viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for seminar attendees. abstracts: authors should submit a one page abstract and/or videotape to: robert lipman naval surface warfare center, carderock division code 2042 bethesda, maryland 20084-5000 voice (301) 227-3618; fax (301) 227-5753 e-mail lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil authors should include the type of presentation, their affiliations, addresses, telephone and fax numbers, and addresses. multi-author papers should designate one point of contact. deadlines: the abstact submission deadline is april 30, 1993. notification of acceptance will be sent by may 14, 1993. materials for reproduction must be received by june 1, 1993. for further information, contact robert lipman at the above address. please distribute as widely as possible, thanks. robert lipman | internet: lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil david taylor model basin - cdnswc | or: lip@ocean.dt.navy.mil computational signatures and | voicenet: (301) 227-3618 structures group, code 2042 | factsnet: (301) 227-5753 bethesda, maryland 20084-5000 | phishnet: stockings@long.legs the sixth sick shiek's sixth sheep's sick. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37917">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37917" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 1-4 bits per r/g/b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture. 5 bits per r/g/b (32768, 65000 colors) gives visible machbanding color-gradient picture has _almost_ no machbanding. this color-resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color-gradient picture, but all in all, there _are_ situiations where you get visible mach-banding even in a 24 bit card. if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark-green-white-yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor, you will probably see some mach-banding. while i don't mean to damn henrik's attempt to be helpful here, he's using a common misconception that should be corrected. mach banding will occur for any image. it is not the color quantization you see when you don't have enough bits. it is the human eye's response to transitions or edges between intensities. the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side. --andre andre yew andrey@cco.caltech.edu (131.215.139.2) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37918">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37918" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i am a mac-user when it comes to graphics (that's what i own software and hardware for) and i've recently come across a large number of tttddd format modeling databases. is there any software, mac or unix, for translating those to something i could use, like dxf? please reply via email. eric oehler oehler@picard.cs.wisc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37922">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37922" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i think you're proposal would work to get an extra one, maybe two extra bits of color resolution. however, if you had a display that chould do only zero or full intensity for each primary, i don't think you'd get great equivalent 24-bit photographs. i have not suggested to do so; i wrote about problems, and the problem were clearly visible with 7 bit b&w images; not to mention 24 bit images. [ description of experiment deleted ] if the 1 bit images are viewed quickly and in sync with screen, then 100 intensities could be better than we have -- i dunno. [ more deleted ] in any case, getting black color with slow machines is problem. i could try it on our 8 bit screens but i don't know how to render pixels with x in constant time. i recall our double buffer has other image color and one b&w -- that doesn't help either. maybe i should dump photos to screen with low level code; how? a few years ago a friend and i took some 256 grey-level photos from a 1 bit mac plus screen using this method. displaying all 256 levels synchronized to the 60hz display took about 10 seconds. after experimenting with different aperture settings and screen brightnesses we found a range that worked well, giving respectable contrast. the quality of the images was pretty good. there were no visible contrast bands. to minimize the exposure time the display program built 255 different 1 bit frames. the first contained a dot only for pixels that had value 255, the second only for pixels that had value 254, etc. these frames were stored using a sparse data structure that was very fast to 'or' onto the screen in sequence. creating these frames sometimes took 5-10 minutes on that old mac, but the camera shutter was closed during that time anyway. and yes, we wrote directly to the screen memory. mea culpa. our biggest problem was that small images were displayed in the top left corner of the screen instead of the center. it took an extra week to have the film developed and printed, because the processors took the trouble to manually move the all images into the center of the print. who'd have guessed? jon rowlands 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37925">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37925" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i am currently looking for a 3d graphics library that runs on ms windows 3.1. are there any such libraries out there other than visuallib? (it must run on vga and should not require any other add-on graphics cards). for visuallib, will it run with metaware high c compiler v3.0? any email contact for the author of visuallib? any help would be much appreciated. thanks. * chua, teck joo | information technology institute * * email: teckjoo@iti.gov.sg | 71 science park drive * * phone: (65) 772-0237 | singapore (0511) * * fax: (65) 779-1827 | * 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37927">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37927" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 better than cdi *much* better than cdi. of course, i do not agree. it does have more horsepower. horsepower is not the only measurement for 'better'. it does not have full motion, full screen video yet. does it have cd-rom xa? starting in the 4 quarter of 1993 the first 3do "multiplayer" will be manufactured by panasonic and will be available late this year. a number of other manufacturers are reported to have 3do compatible boxes in the works. which other manufacturers? we shall see about the date. a 3do marketing rep. recently offered a phillips marketing rep. a $100 bet that 3do would have boxes on the market on schedule. the phillips rep. declined the bet, probably because he knew that 3do players are already in pre-production manufacturing runs, 6 months before the commercial release date. by the time of commercial release, there will be other manufacturers of 3do players announced and possibly already tooling up production. chip sets will be in full production. the number of software companies designing titles for the box will be over 300. how do i know this? i was at a bar down the road from 3do headquarters last week. some folks were bullshitting a little too loudly about company business. all this information is third hand or so and worth what you paid for it:-). this is second hand, but it still hard to look to the future ;-). lex van sonderen lex@aimla.com philips interactive media what an impartial source! 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37930">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37930" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anybody know if there are any good 2d-graphics packages available for ibm rs/6000 & aix ? i'm looking for something like dec's gks or hewlett-packards starbase, both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters, terminals, x etc. i have tried also xgks from x11 distribution and ibm's implementation of phigs. both of them work but we require more output devices than just x-windows. our salesman at ibm was not very familiar with graphics and i am not expecting for any good solutions from there. ari suutari ari@carel.fi carelcomp oy 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37931">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37931" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 #i use xwd/xpr (from the x11r5 dist.) and various programs of the #ppm-tools to print hardcopies of colored x windows. my problem is, i don't like xpr. it gives (at least, the x11r4 version does) louzy output: the hardcopy looks very grainy to me. instead, i use pnmtops. this takes full advantage postscript, and lets the printer do the dirty job of dithering a (graylevel) image to black and white dots. so: if you have a postscript printer, try: xwdtopnm <xwdfile> | # convert to ppm [ppmtopgm |] # .. to graylevel for smaller file to print pnmtops -noturn | # .. to postscript lpr # print pnmtops has several neat options, but use them with care: if you want your image to be 4" wide, use: pnmtops -noturn -scale 100 -width 4 -noturn prevents the image from being rotated (if it is wider than it is high) -width 4 specifies the paper width (not the image width - see below) -scale 100 is used because if the image is small, it may fit within a width less than 4", and will thus be printed smaller than 4" wide. if you first scale it up a lot, it will certainly not fit in 4", and will be scaled down by pnmtops automatically to fit the specified paper width. in short: pnmtops will scale an image down to fit the paper size, but it will not blow it up automatically. hope this helps. x marcel wijkstra aio (wijkstra@fwi.uva.nl) |x| faculty of mathematics and computer science x university of amsterdam the netherlands ======life stinks. fortunately, i've got a cold.======== 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37932">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37932" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 why didn't you create 8 grey-level images, and display them for 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128... time slices? by '8 grey level images' you mean 8 items of 1bit images? it does work(!), but it doesn't work if you have more than 1bit in your screen and if the screen intensity is non-linear. with 2 bit per pixel; there could be 1*c_1 + 4*c_2 timing, this gives 16 levels, but they are linear if screen intensity is with 1*c_1 + 2*c_2 it works, but we have to find the best compinations -- there's 10 levels, but 16 choises; best 10 must be chosen. different compinations for the same level, varies a bit, but the levels keeps their order. readers should verify what i wrote... :-) juhana kouhia 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37935">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37935" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i will be writing a data acquisition program to collect data from a variety of sources including rs232, and external a/d's, and i would like to be able to display the data in near realtime. i've done this type of thing on pc's and other machines, but i am unaware of any graphics package that could help me with this on a unix machine. does anyone have any ideas on commercial or "free" packages that might suit my needs? i would really appreciate any input. i'm sure this has been done many times before. for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals 505-530-6563 for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico 508-277-6563 ftp from ptrg.eece.unm.edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd /pub/khoros/release that will get you to the right place. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37938">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37938" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 bear with me i'm new at this game, but could anyone explain exactly what dmorf does, does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it re shape one bitma p into another. please excuse my ignorance, i' not even sure if i've posted thi s message correctly. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37939">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37939" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 please bear with me as i am new at this game, i apologize unreservedly if i hav e posted another message earlier by mistake. but i digress, could anyone out th ere please explain exactly what dmorf does (dtax.exe). does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it reshape one bitmap into another. excuse my ignor ance..... 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37942">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37942" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi! i am in immediate need for details of various graphics compression techniques. so if you know where i could obtain descriptions of algo- rithms or public-domain source codes for such formats as jpeg, gif, and fractals, i would be immensely grateful if you could share the info with me. this is for a project i am contemplating of doing. thanks in advance. please reply via e-mail if possible. --hbj 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37943">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37943" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 some rendering programs require that all surface normals point in the same direction. (ie: on a closed cube, all normals point outwards). you can use the points on the faces to determine the direction of the normal, by making sure that all points are either in clockwise or counter-clockwise order. how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction, given a set of points, edges and faces? say that you had a cube with all faces that have their normals facing outwards, except for one face. what's the best way to realize that face is "flipped", and should have it's points re-ordered? i thought i had a good way of telling this, but then realized that the algorithm i had would only tell you if you had points in clockwise order for a 2d polygon. i'd like something for 3d data. any hints, tips, references would be appreciated. where humor is concerned there are no standards -- no one can say what is good or bad, although you can be sure that everyone will. -- john kenneth galbraith ------- these opinions are my own. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37944">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37944" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 wgt is the wordup graphics toolkit, designed by yours truly and my co-programmer (and brother) chris egerter. it is a turbo/borland c++ graphics library for programming in 320*200*256 vga. we are currently producing it as shareware, but in a few years it may be a commercial product (excuse typos, there's no backspace on this terminal). features include: - loading and saving bit-images (called blocks from herein) - flipping, resizing and warping blocks - loading and saving palette, fading, several in memory at once - graphics primitives such as line, circle, bar, rectangle - region fill (not the usually useless floodfill) - sprites (animated bitmaps), up to 200 onscreen at once - joystick/mouse support - sb support (voc and cmf) - tile-based game creation using 16*16 pixel tiles to create a 320*200 tile map (or game world) like in duke nuke 'em - number of sprites increased to 1000 - professional sprite creator utility and map maker - routines to simplify scrolling games using maps, etc - fli playing routines, sprites can be animated over the fli while playing - pcx support, soon gif - ems/xms coming soon as well leave e-mail to barry egerter at egerter@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca files available on: (use mget wgt*.zip) simtel20 and mirrors pd1:<msdos.turbo-c> nic.funet.fi pub/msdos/games/programming some sites may not have recent files, contact me for info regarding the up-to- date information. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37946">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37946" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 a brilliant algorithm. *not* seriously - it's correct, up to a sign change. the flaw is obvious, and will therefore not be shown. sorry about that. kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan@cis.uab.edu university of alabama at birmingham (205) 934-2213 115a campbell hall, uab station (205) 934-5473 fax birmingham, al 35294-1170 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37947">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37947" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i am sorry, but this genoa card does nothing that the ati ultra plus 2mb can't do, plus the ati costs 330$us street price .... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics37950">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37950" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 1-4 bits per r/g/b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture. 5 bits per r/g/b (32768, 65000 colors) gives visible machbanding color-gradient picture has _almost_ no machbanding. this color-resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color-gradient picture, but all in all, there _are_ situiations where you get visible mach-banding even in a 24 bit card. if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark-green-white-yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor, you will probably see some mach-banding. while i don't mean to damn henrik's attempt to be helpful here, he's using a common misconception that should be corrected. mach banding will occur for any image. it is not the color quantization you see when you don't have enough bits. it is the human eye's response to transitions or edges between intensities. the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side. --andre yeah, of course... the term 'mach banding' was not the correct one, it should've been 'color quantization effect'. although a bad color quantization effect could result in some visible mach-bands on a picture that was smooth before it was henrik harmsen internet: d9hh@dtek.chalmers.se chalmers university of technology, sweden. "i haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere." 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37951">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37951" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 opps! typed in the phone numbers wrong. here are the correct numbers. for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals 303-530-9000 for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico 505-277-6563 ftp from ptrg.eece.unm.edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd /pub/khoros/release 
</context>
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<instance id="comp.graphics37953">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37953" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 help my friend and i have a class project in which we are trying to make a computer animated movie of sorts with the disney animation and would like to put what we have on a vcr is this possible? is it easy and relatively cheap? if so how? we both have 386 ibm compatibles but are relatively clueless with computers if you could help please do. brant ritter moshing-- "a cosmic cesspool of physical delight." -a. kiedas 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37956">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37956" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 are complex bio-medical images available anywhere on the net for experimentation? by complex i mean that every sampled data point has a magnitude and phase information both. thanks for any pointers, --vishwa 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37958">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37958" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i need a complete list of all the polygons that there are, in order. i'll summarize to the net. "if only i had been compiled with the '-g' option." 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37959">
<answer instance="comp.graphics37959" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 you'll probably have to set the palette up before you try drawing in the new colours. use the bios interrupt calls to set the r g & b values (in the range from 0-63 for most cards) for a particular palette colour (in the range from 0-255 for 256 colour modes). then you should be able to draw pixels in those palette values and the result should be ok. you might have to do a bit of colourmap compressing if you have more than 256 unique rgb triplets, for a 256 colour mode. geoff thomas geoffrey@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz computer science dept. university of canterbury private bag +-------+ christchurch | oook! | new zealand +-------+ 
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<instance id="comp.graphics37961">
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 i've used the recently-released macintosh application mpeg to quicktime to convert the excellent mpeg "canyon.mpg" into a quicktime movie. while anyone who would want this movie is perfectly able to convert it themselves, i thought i'd let the net know that i'd be glad to mail copies of mine out. the movie conversion took close to six hours on my poor little iicx; in other words, unless you've got a quadra, you might not want to tie up your machine in converting this file. the movie is a fast fly-through of a fractal-generated canyon landscape. the movie is 58 seconds long, and uses the compact video compressor (i.e., quicktime v1.5). the movie looks okay on 8-bit displays, and looks absolutely awesome on 16- and 24-bit displays. i'd be happy to mail this movie to the first 20 or so people who ask for it. the only caveat is you need to be able to receive a nine-megabyte mail message (the movie was stuff-it'ed down to seven megs, but binhex ruined that party). if more then 20 people want this movie, then it's just more evidence that the net needs a dedicated quicktime ftp archive site. c'mon, someone's gotta have a spare 1.2gb drive out there... okay, i've received a whole lot of requests for the movie, so for simplicity's sake i can't mail out any more than i've already received (as of 16:30 edt, tuesday). maybe it'll pop up on a site sooner or later. hugh johnson (johnsh@rpi.edu) | rensselaer polytechnic institute | welcome to macintosh. troy, new york, usa | 
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 hello, i realize that this might be a faq but i have to ask since i don't get a change to read this newsgroup very often. anyways for my senior project i need to convert an autocad file to a tiff file. please i don't need anyone telling me that the autocad file is a vector file and the tiff is a bit map since i have heard that about 100 times already i would just like to know if anyone knows how to do this or at least point me to the right direction. any help greatly appreciated, matt georgy 
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 hello, and thank you for reading this request. i have a mpeg viewer for x-windows and it did not run because i was running it on a monochrome monitor. i need the mono-driver for mpeg_play. please post the location of the file or better yet, e-mail me at mlee@eng.sdsu.edu. 
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 i am trying obtain program to preprocess handwriting characters. like thining algorithm, graph alogrithm. do anyone know where i can obtain those? i usually use "algorithms for graphics and image processing" by theodosios pavlidis, but other people here got them same idea and now 3 of 4 copies in the libraries have been stolen! another reference is "digital image processing" by gonzalez and wintz/wood, which is widely available but a little expensive ($55 here- i just checked today). 
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 according to the tiff 5.0 specification, the tiff "version number" (bytes 2-3) 42 has been chosen for its "deep philosophical significance". last week, i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, is this actually how they picked the number 42? i'm sure it is, and i am not amused. every time i read that part of the tiff spec, it infuriates me- and i'm none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway- because i think their "arbitrary but carefully chosen number" is neither. additionally, i find their choice of 4 bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves- why not just use the letters "tiff"? (and no, i don't think they should have bothered to support both word orders either- and i've found that many tiff readers actually don't.) 
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 does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is? is there any reference to it? is it useful for creating 3-d objects? if yes, what's the advantage? it is used to create a tin (triangulated irregular network), which is basically a bunch of triangles which form a surface over a group of points. what is special about it is that the triangles formed are the most equalateral possible. check out "proceedings of autocarto n" where n is 8..10. sorry, i don't have a specific reference describing the 
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 there is a thing called xgif xgif is the grandfather of xv. ======================================================================8--< 
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 i've been trying to view .tga files created in povray. i have the diamond speedstar 24 video board (not the _24x_). so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays 8 bit color. i'm looking for some way to convert and/or view them in 24 bit. i have univesa (uvesa31.zip) and the dvpeg viewer but i don't get anything. perhaps i am not setting up univesa properly? if anyone has ideas about this please feel free to enlighten me... just want to see the darn things in real color... image alchemy (aka alchemy) will view the tga files that pov outputs and just about any other format you can think of. it will also convert between all these. it's shareware, so it's probably available by ftp somwhere out there in netland... yep... alchemy works fine on my tseng400+dac, but i think i remember reading that it only displays in 15-bit or so. of course, that's still 32k colors which is nothing to sneeze at. use the --v flag. neal miller | "why not go mad?" | millernw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu clarkson university | - ford prefect | dark@craft.camp.clarkson.edu 
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 there is a new product for the (ibm'ers) out there... it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday... i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of 3d-studio. it is made by impulse, and is in its 3rd version....(1st) for the ibm.... it can do morphing, your standard key-framming animation, it is a raytracer (reflections & shadows), and can do/apply special fx to objects... (like ripple, explode, bounce) things of that nature. also it has algorithmic texture maps....and your standard brushmapping also... you can have animated brushmaps...(ie. live video mapped on the objs)... also animated backdrops (ie. live video backgrounds) also animted reflections maps.... you get the idea.... it will run for about 500$ retail (i think)... dont let the low price fool you.... this product can do it all when it comes to 3d-animation and renderering...! also....does anyone here know how to get in the imagine mailing list?? please e-mail me if you do or post up here.... oh...the number for impulse is --->1 800 328 0184 trb3@ra.msstate.edu 
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 gchen@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu writes in article <c55doh.2ai@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>: greetings! does anybody know if it is possible to set vga graphics mode to 640x400 instead of 640x480? any info is appreciated! some vesa bios's support this mode (0x100). and *any* vga should be able to support this (640x480 by 256 colors) since it only requires 256,000 bytes. my 8514/a vesa tsr supports this; it's the only vesa mode by card can support due to 8514/a restrictions. (a wd/paradise) i am not responsible for anything i do or say -- i'm just an opinion. robert j.c. kyanko (rob@rjck.uucp) ahh no. possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator. 256 color modes take a byte per pixel so 640 time 480 is 307,200 which is 300k to be exact. 640x400x256 only takes 250k but i don't think it is a bios mode. i wouldn't bet that all vga cards can do that either. if a vga card has 512k i bet it can do both 640x400 and 640x480. that by definition is svga, though not very high svga. 
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 does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is? is there any reference to it? the delaunay triangulation is the geometrical dual of the voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from natural neighbor order. aurenhammer, f., 1991, voronoi diagrams - a survey of a fundamental geometric data structure: acm computing surveys, 23(3), p. 345-405. okabe, a., boots, b., and sugihara, k., 1992, spatial tessellations : concepts and applications of voronoi diagrams: wiley & sons, new york, isbn 0 471 93430 5, 532p. watson, d.f., 1981, computing the n-dimensional delaunay tessellation with application to voronoi polytopes: the computer j., 24(2), p. 167-172.} watson, d.f., 1985, natural neighbour sorting: the australian computer j., 17(4), p. 189-193. dave watson internet: watson@maths.uwa.edu.au department of mathematics the university of western australia tel: (61 9) 380 3359 nedlands, wa 6009 australia. fax: (61 9) 380 1028 
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 wing the suggestion of stu lynne, i have posted the image file format executable and source code to alt.sources. herman silbiger 
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 dear reader, i'am searching for an implementation of a polygon reduction algorithm for marching cubes surfaces. i think the best one is the reduction algorithm from schroeder et al., siggraph '92. so, is there any implementation of this algorithm, it would be very nice if you could leave it to me. also i'am looking for a fast !!! connectivity test for marching cubes surfaces. any help or hints will be very useful. thanks a lot (o o) ___________________________________________ooo__(-)__ooo_____________ |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|_| |_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| | erwin keeve | adress: peter-welter-platz 2 | | | w-5000 cologne 1, germany | | dept. of computergraphics & | phone: +49-221-20189-132 (-192) | | computeranimation | fax: +49-221-20189-17 | | academy of media arts cologne | email: keeve@khm.uni-koeln.de | |_______________________________|_____________________________________| 
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 i have posted a dos mpeg decoder/player to alt.binaries.pictures.utilities. here is a short description and some technical information, taken from the accompanying documentation: dmpeg v1.0 public domain mpeg decoder by stefan eckart 0. features dmpeg/dmplay is another mpeg decoder/player for the pc: - decodes (nearly) the full mpeg video standard (i,p,b frames, frame size up to at least 352x240 supported) - saves decoded sequence in 8 or 24bit raw file for later display - optional on-screen display during decoding (requires vga) - several dithering options: ordered dither, floyd-steinberg, grayscale - color-space selection - runs under dos, 640kb ram, no ms-windows required - very compact (small code / small data models, 16 bit arithmetic) - real time display of the raw file by a separate player for vga and many super-vgas 4. technical information the player is a rather straightforward implementation of the mpeg spec [1]. the idct is based on the chen-wang 13 multiplication algorithm [2] (not quite the optimum, i know). blocks with not more than eight non-zero coefficients use a non-separated direct multiply-accumulate 2d-idct (sounds great, doesn't it?), which turned out to be faster than a 'fast' algorithm in this (quite common) case. dithering is pretty standard. main difference to the berkeley decoder (except for the fewer number of supported algorithms) is the use of 256 instead of 128 colors, the (default) option to use a restricted color-space and the implementation of a color saturation dominant ordered dither. this leads to a significantly superior quality of the dithered image (i claim, judge yourself). restricted color-space means that the u and v components are clipped to +/-0.25 (instead of +/-0.5) and the display color-space points are distributed over this restricted space. since the distance between color-space points is thus reduced by a factor of two, the color resolution is doubled at the expense of not being able to represent fully saturated colors. saturation dominant ordered dither is a method by which a color, lying somewhere between the points of the display color space, is approximated by primarily alternating between two points of constant hue instead of constant saturation. this yields subjectivly better quality due to the lower sensitivity of the human viewing system to saturation changes than to hue changes (the same reasoning as used by the pal tv standard to improve on ntsc). the improvement is particularly visible in dark brown or redish stefan eckart, stefan@lis.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de 
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 up until last week, i have been running povray v1.0 on my 486/33 under dos5 without any major problems. over easter i increased the memory from 4meg to 8meg, and found that povray reboots the system every time under dos5. i had a go at running povray in a dos window when running win3.1 on the same system and it now works fine, even if a lot slower. i would like to go back to using povray directly under dos, anyone any ideas??? john heaton - nrs central administrator mcc network unit, the university, oxford road, manchester, m13-9pl phone: (+44) 61 275 6011 - fax: (+44) 61 275 6040 packet: g1yyh @ g1yyh.gb7pwy.#16.gbr.eu 
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 i would like to know if anyone has had any luck using the upper 128 ascii characters on a sun station. i am trying to convert a fortran program to run on a sun. when we write character buffers to the sun which contain char(218) or char(196) or char(197) etc. we get characters on the screen but they are not the characters in the standard ascii tables. any ideas or help will be appreciated. 
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 on wed, 14 apr 1993 04:49:46 gmt, graeme@labtam.labtam.oz.au (graeme gill) said: graeme> yes, that's known as "bresenhams run length slice algorithm for graeme> incremental lines". see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics, graeme> springer-verlag, berlin heidelberg 1985. i have tried to extrapolate this to circles but i can't figure out how to determine the length of the slices. any ideas? graeme> hmm. i don't think i can help you with this, but you might graeme> take a look at the following: graeme> "double-step incremental generation of lines and circles", graeme> x. wu and j. g. rokne, computer graphics and image processing, graeme> vol 37, no. 4, mar. 1987, pp. 331-334 graeme> "double-step generation of ellipses", x. wu and j. g. rokne, graeme> ieee computer graphics & applications, may 1989, pp. 56-69 another paper you might want to consider is: @article{fungdraw, title="a run-length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations", author="khun yee fung and tina m. nicholl and a. k. dewdney", journal="computer graphics forum", year=1992, volume=11, number=3, pages="c-267--c-277" khun yee khun yee fung clipper@csd.uwo.ca department of computer science middlesex college university of western ontario london, ontario canada n6a 5b7 tel: (519) 661-6889 fax: (519) 661-3515 
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 i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon. does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject ? see the article "an efficient ray-polygon intersection," p. 390 in graphics gems (isbn 0-12-286165-5). the second step, intersecting the polygon, does what you want. there is sample code in the book. steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "they are not bolsheviks, just bullshitviks." - yevgeny yevtechenko, "again a meeting..." 
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 : |> is there any way to connect two pointing devices to one serial : |> port? i haven't tried this but i believe they would interfere : |> with each other (?) even if only one at a time would be used. : just get an a-b switch for rs232. look in computer shopper. : they are available fairly cheap. they allow switching between two : serial devices on a single port. unfortunately the poster wants to use an internal and an external modem so a switch isn't going to help them. if you aren't using your com ports for anything else, just define them on different com ports. define your internal modem to be say, com1, and your external modem to be com3. you really shouldn't have to worry about interrupt conflicts since you won't be using both modems at the same time :). christopher chan-nui | investment in reliability will increase until it channui@austin.ibm.com | exceeds the probable cost of errors, or until someone #include <disclaimer.h> | insists on getting some useful work done. 
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 they talked about another routine that could yield up to 150 to 1 compress with no image loss that *i* could notice. the draw back is that it takes a hell of a long time to compress something. i'll have to see if i can find the book so that i can give more exact numbers. ttyl. that's a typical claim, though they say they've improved compression speed considerably. did you find out anything else about the book? i'd be interested in looking at it if you could give me any pointers. reportedly, early fractal compression times of 24-100 hours used that marvelous piece of hardware called "grad students" to do the work. supposedly it's been automated since about 1988, but i'm still waiting to be impressed. allen b (sign me "cynical") 
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 : 8~> i require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays. does : 8~> anyone know where i could obtain the relevant drivers ? (ftp sites ??) : i would like to know too! : regards, : dominic garbo.uwasa.fi (or one of its many mirrors) has a file called "svgabg40" in the programming subdirectory. these are svga bgi drivers for a variety of cards. [from the readme]: "card types supported: (supervga drivers) ahead, ati, chips & tech, everex, genoa, paradise, oak, trident (both 8800 and 8900, 9000), tseng (both 3000 and 4000 chipsets) and video7. these drivers will also work on video cards with vesa capability. the tweaked drivers will work on any register-compatible vga card." clark verbrugge clump@cs.mcgill.ca honk honk blat wak wak wak wak wak ungow! 
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 according to the tiff 5.0 specification, the tiff "version number" (bytes 2-3) 42 has been chosen for its "deep philosophical significance". last week, i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, is this actually how they picked the number 42? i'm sure it is, and i am not amused. every time i read that part of the tiff spec, it infuriates me- and i'm none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway- because i think their "arbitrary but carefully chosen number" is neither. additionally, i find their choice of 4 bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves- why not just use the letters "tiff"? (and no, i don't think they should have bothered to support both word orders either- and i've found that many tiff readers actually don't.) why so up tight? for that matter, tiff6 is out now, so why not gripe about its problems? also, if its so important to you, volunteer to help define or critique the spec. finally, a little numerology: 42 is 24 backwards, and tiff is a 24 bit image format... christopher p. tully cptully@med.unc.edu univ. of north carolina - chapel hill cb# 7525 (919) 966-2699 chapel hill, nc 27599 i get paid for my opinions, but that doesn't mean that unc or anybody else agrees with them. 
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 intersection between a line and a polygon (undecidable??), by dave baraff, tom duff in recent years, many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a new language called postscript. (see "postscript language", by adobe systems incorporated, isbn # 0-201-10179-3, co. 1985). so, given a line l and a polygon p, we can write a postscript program that draws the line l and the polygon p, and then "outputs" the answer. by "output", we mean the program executes a command called "showpage", which actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon. a quick examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem q, and the original problem. curiously, in modern postscript, the point in a polygon problem can be solved even more easily. to wit: %%title: point in polygon %%creator: allen b (ab@cc.purdue.edu) %%for: the amusement of comp.graphics regulars %%languagelevel: 2 %%documentneededresource: humor sense thereof %%endcomments % this program will test whether a point is inside a given polygon. % currently it uses the even-odd rule, but that can be changed by % replacing ineofill with infill. these are level 2 operators, % so if you've only got level 1 you're out of luck. % the result will be printed on the output stream. % caution: only accurate to device pixels! % put a huge scale in first if you aren't sure. % point to test % put x and y coordinates here 50 75 % vertices of polygon in counter-clockwise order % put array of pairs of coordinates here [ 0 0 ] [ 100 0 ] [ 100 100 ] [ 67 100 ] [ 67 50 ] [ 33 50 ] [ 33 100 ] [ 0 100 ] dup 0 get aload pop moveto dup length 1 dup 3 1 roll sub getinterval { aload pop lineto } forall closepath ineofill { (yes!) } { (no!) } ifelse = 
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 update on location!! directory should be: public/virtual-worlds!! sorry! :-) robert@acsc.com 
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 help!!! please i am a student of turbo c++ and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff.. 1) where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files? 2) how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256 3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question? thanks very much ! send reply's to : palm@snycanva.bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm 
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 my 8514/a vesa tsr supports this can you report crt and other register state in this mode ? thank's. serge ivanov (serge@argus.msk.su) 
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 this past week i've been playing with some of the r-d (reaction- diffusion, not to be confused with rds or r&d) techniques from siggraph '91. i was wondering what material is available to explain the control mechanism a little more. it seems to me very much like a matter of picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting. although both of the papers (turk and witkin & kass) were very well organized and extremely helpful, i guess what i need is a more basic description of the technique, especially wrt the control mechanisms. the tests that i did had a tendency to either turn into blurry mud or become is there any info available online? source code would be great but not necessary. thanks! terran j. boylan, sr. artist/programmer | "it's better to have loved engineering animation, inc., ames, ia | and lost than just to have (515) 296-9908 / (515) 296-7892 (> 5pm) | lost." -- dorky dog 
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 i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least 1024x786x24 resolution. i know matrox has one, but it is very expensive. all the other cards i know of, that support that resoultion, are striaght isa. also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support 24 bits? 
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 recently i saw the latest computer shopper and in it there was an article on nice shareware graphics programs. they looked pretty good and of the 6 listed in the article, one i had (graphics workshop), one i found via archie (draft choice - old version though) and the rest i couldn't find. so if there is anyone that knows where i can get the following programs via anonymous ftp, please let me know. adkins graphics :ag1.zip, ag2.zip draft choice (latest vga version) : draftc.zip envision publisher: envis1.zip, envis2.zip neopaint: neopnt.zip thanx in advance. d.petro david petro kwyjibo-- a big, dumb, balding < dept. of physics north american ape. < university of windsor petro@server.uwindsor.ca < 
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 hi netters, i'm building a cad package and need a 3d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks, such as hidden line removal, shading, animation, etc. can you please offer some recommendations? i'll also need contact info (name, address, email...) if you can find it. (please post your responses, in case others have same need) bob carpenter i too would like a 3d graphics library! how much do c libraries cost anyway? can you get the tools used by, say, renderman, and can you get them at a reasonable cost? sorry that i don't have any answers, just questions... matt madsen mmadsen@ics.uci.edu 
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 does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is? is there any reference to it? is it useful for creating 3-d objects? if yes, what's the advantage? thanks in advance. 
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 |> i would be most thrilled if some kind person could help me with the following |> given a cylinder in 3d -defined as a line segment between two points and |> a radius (e.g. sx,sy,sz to ex,ey,ez and r), what is the easiest (and not |> too expensive) way to find if a ray -defined as another line through two |> points -cuts through this cylinder and if so where? |> i think the test for touching is rather simple: if the closest approach |> of the two lines is less than r, then the ray does penetrate the cylinder. nope, this won't work for a cylinder. you can have a line arbitrarily close to the the cylinder backbone, and yet not intersect it. the test works for a pillbox, though. (a cylinder with two hemispheres attached at the ends.) |> thanks, |> ryan (koehler@secs.ucsc.edu) 
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 : did you say dec alpha? upgrade path from [...] : 6xx0: replace. upgrade path from vax 66x0 to alpha: replace the system. not totally fair - you haven't mentioned the decstation series. i think if sgi made cisc mainframes they wouldn't provide an upgrade path to an onyx. i agree with you about the upgrade path; but i think i was fair. the original posting complained (1) about sgi coming out with newer (and better) architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones, and (2) that dec did. on statement (1), i merely attempted to point out that all computer companies are constantly attempting to improve their product (& market position/share). in so doing, they eventually come to a point where they have a new architecture, and the only upgrade path is to replace the system. and the particular system he was complaining about was (in computer lifetimes) relatively old. on statement (2), i felt dec's history of providing upgrades was not far superior than the industry "average", and that, in my opinion, sgi's history is better than dec's. (and what is dec doing with it's mips based decstation line? are they going to "abandon" it for their alpha based line, or provide an upgrade path to r4400's and tfp's and r5's?) 
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 i aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images. the correct address should be: jupiter.csd.unb.ca rather than jupiter.csd.unb.edu. they are in the directory: \pub\library.info jon williams university of northern iowa 
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 job opportunity seri(systems engineering research institute), of kist(korea institute of science and technology) is looking for the resumes for the following position and need them by the end of june (6/30). if you are interested, send resumes to: cad/cae lab (6th floor) systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung-gu, eoeun-dong, daejon. korea 305-600 company: systems engineering research institute title : senior research scientist job description : in depth knowledge of c. working knowledge of computer aided design. working knowledge of computer graphics. working knowledge of virtual reality. skills not required but desirable : knowledge of data modeling, virtual reality experience, understanding of client/server architecture. requirement : ph.d job location : daejon, korea contact info : chul-ho, lim cad/cae lab (6th floor) systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung-gu, eoeun-dong, daejon. korea 305-600 phone) 82-42-869-1681 fax) 82-42-861-1999 e-mail) jxl9011@129.21.200.201 
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 : 3do is still a concept. : the software is what sells and what will determine its : success. apparantly you dont keep up on the news. 3do was shown at ces to developers and others at private showings. over 300 software licensees currently developing software for it. i would say that it is a *lot* more than just a concept. 
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 archie told me the following sites holding documentation about dxf: host nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) last updated 15:11 7 apr 1993 location: /pub/csc/graphics/format file rwxrwxr-- 95442 dec 4 1991 dxf.doc host rainbow.cse.nau.edu (134.114.64.24) last updated 17:09 1 jun 1992 location: /graphics/formats file rw-r--r-- 95442 mar 23 23:31 dxf.doc host ftp.waseda.ac.jp (133.9.1.32) last updated 00:47 5 apr 1993 location: /pub/data/graphic file rw-r--r-- 39753 nov 18 1991 dxf.doc.z j"org wunsch, ham: dl8dtl : joerg_wunsch@uriah.sax.de if anything can go wrong... : ...or: .o .o : joerg@sax.de,wutcd@hadrian.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de, <_ ... it will! : joerg_wunsch@tcd-dresden.de 
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 on sunsite.unc.edu in pub/multimedia/utilities/unix find mpeg_play-2.0.tar.z. i find for mono it works best as mpeg_play -dither threshold though you can use mpeg_play -dither mono face it, this is not be the best viewing situation. also someone has made a patch for mpeg_play that gives two more mono modes (mono2 and halftone). they are by jan@pandonia.canberra.edu.au (jan newmarch). and the patch can be found on csc.canberra.edu.au (137.92.1.1) under /pub/motif/mpeg2.0.mono.patch. leon dent lcd@umcc.umich.edu 
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 has anybody compiled vogl-graphics library for ibm-pc? i need to call it from ms-fortran but don't have ms-c to compile the sources. thanks for any help... martti toivakka mtoivakk@abo.fi 
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 has anyone got multiverse to work ? i have built it on 486 svr4, mips svr4s and sun sparcstation. there seems to be many bugs in it. the 'dogfight' and 'dactyl' simply do nothing (after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules - one needed setting to static - else the client core-dumped) extn 5543, sts@mfltd.co.uk, !uunet!mfocus!sts +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ micro focus | just like pariah, i have no name, | rm -rf * | 26 west street | living in a blaze of obscurity, | "rum ruff splat" | newbury | need courage to survive the day. | | berkshire +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ england (a)bort (r)etry (i)nfluence with large hammer 
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 when using photoshop is there anyway to get an elliptical dot for the halftone screen rather than a round dot ? my printer would prefer an elliptical dot, but i'm not sure how to set it up. i'm sending from a mac iici to a linotronic l300 imagesetter and i am using photoshop 2.0.1 to make my separations. any help would be greatly appreshed. t.i.a. michael (unscene) michael maier, computer artist, anl | [|Ú]---*z* glued to the veiw. email michael_maier@qmgate.anl.gov | "tv is the milk of amnesia." phone 708 252 5298 | Ñ michael maier 
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 the original posting complained (1) about sgi coming out with newer (and better) architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones, and (2) that dec did. no. that's *not* what i was complaining about, nor did i intend to suggest that dec was any better than sgi (let me tell you about the lynx some day, but be prepared with a large sedative if you do...). my comment regarding dec was to indicate that i might be open to other vendors that supported opengl, rather than deal further with sgi. what i *am* annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we *would* be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck. i'm also annoyed about being sold *several* personal irises at a previous site on the understanding *that* architecture would be around for a while, rather than being flushed. now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line (odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter), but i'm just a little tired of getting boned in the process. maybe it's because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies, so we aren't entitled to a "peek under the covers" as the big kids (nasa, for instance) are. this lab, and i suspect that a lot of other labs and organizations, doesn't have a load of money to spend on computers every year, so we can't be out buying new systems on a regular basis. the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and, in some case, beyond. that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money, not some product that was built, to paraphrase one previous poster's words, 'to fill a niche' to compete with some other vendor. i'm going to be looking at this box for the next five years. and every time i look at it, i'm going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money (actually *your* money, since we're supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars). now you'll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a corner somewhere and think dark, libelous thoughts. steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "my other car is a car, too." - bumper strip seen on i-805 
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 help!!! please i am a student of turbo c++ and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff.. 1) where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files? 2) how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256 3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question? thanks very much ! send reply's to : palm@snycanva.bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm a book that i can somewhat recommend is : pratical image processing in c by craig a. lindley published by wiley it addresses reading/writing to/from pcx/tiff files; image acquisition, manipulation and storage; and has source code in the book. the source is primarily written in turbo c and naturally has conversion possibilities. i have converted some of it to quick c. naturally, the code has some problems in the book - as usuall. typos, syntax, etc. are problems. it can be a good learning experience for someone who is studying c. there is also a companion disk with source available for order and $50.00. overall, the book is not bad. i acquired the book at waldensoftware. 
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 and cd-i's cpu doesn't help much either. i understand it is a 68070 (supposedly a variation of a 68000/68010) running at something like 7mhz. with this speed, you *truly* need sprites. wow! a 68070! i'd be very interested to get my hands on one of these, especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the 68060, which is supposedly the next in the 680x0 lineup. 8-d ricardo, the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime 1.5 with the compact video codec. i've seen digitized video (some of apple's early commercials, to be precise) running on a centris 650 at about 30fps very nicely (16-bit color depth). i would expect that using the same algorithm, a risc processor should be able to approach full-screen full-motion animation, though as you've implied, the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material. sean mcmains | check out the gopher | phone:817.565.2039 university of north texas | new bands info server | fax :817.565.4060 p.o. box 13495 | at seanmac.acs.unt.edu | e-mail: denton tx 76203 | | mcmains@unt.edu 
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 i am searching for rendering software which has been developed to specifically take advantage of multi-processor computer systems. any pointers to such software would be greatly appreciated. billy carter, software engineering section southwest research institute wcarter@swri.edu 
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 i've been trying to bump map a gif onto a sphere for a while and i can't seem to get it to work. image mapping works, but not bump mapping. here's a simple file i was working with, could some kind soul tell me whats wrong with this..... #include "colors.inc" #include "shapes.inc" #include "textures.inc" camera { location <0 1 -3> direction <0 0 1.5> up <0 1 0> right <1.33 0 0> look_at <0 1 2> object { light_source { <2 4 -3> color white } object { sphere { <0 1 2> 1 } texture { bump_map { 1 <0 1 2> gif "surf.gif"} note: surf.gif is a plasma fractal from fractint that is using the landscape palette map. thanks in advance -daniel- | daniel kennett | | dkennett@sfu.ca | | "our minds are finite, and yet even in those circumstances of | | finitude, we are surrounded by possibilities that are infinite, and | | the purpose of human life is to grasp as much as we can out of that | | infinitude." - alfred north whitehead | 
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 this program doesn't detect edges with compass operators and a laplacian operator. it should output 2 raw grey-scale images with edges. the output doesn't look like edges at all. in novicee terms, how do i correct the errors? any improvements are welcome. (i'll even accept your corrected code.) (if i convolve the input.image with a digital gaussian [7 by 7] to remove noise, will i get an improvement with the laplacian.) --------------------------2 types of edge detection-------------------------*/ #include <stdio.h> #include <math.h> #define imagewidth 300 #define imageheight 300 unsigned char input_image [imageheight][imagewidth]; unsigned char angles_wanted [imageheight][imagewidth]; unsigned char magnitude_image [imageheight][imagewidth]; int laplace_op1 [3][3] = { 0,-1, 0, -1,4,-1, 0,-1, 0}; int compass_op1 [3][3] = { 1, 1, 1, 0,0, 0, -1,-1,-1}; int compass_op2 [3][3] = { 1, 1, 0, 1,0,-1, 0,-1,-1}; int compass_op3 [3][3] = { 1, 0,-1, 1,0,-1, 1, 0,-1}; int compass_op4 [3][3] = { 0,-1,-1, 1,0,-1, 1, 1, 0}; int compass_op5 [3][3] = {-1,-1,-1, 0,0, 0, 1, 1, 1}; int compass_op6 [3][3] = {-1,-1, 0, -1,0, 1, 0, 1, 1}; int compass_op7 [3][3] = {-1, 0, 1, -1,0, 1, -1, 0, 1}; int compass_op8 [3][3] = { 0, 1, 1, -1,0, 1, -1,-1, 0}; void compass (row,col) int row,col; int value; int op_rows, op_cols; int compass1,compass2,compass3,compass4; int compass5,compass6,compass7,compass8; compass1 = compass2 = compass3 = compass4 = 0; compass5 = compass6 = compass7 = compass8 = 0; for (op_rows = -1; op_rows < 2; op_rows++) for (op_cols = -1; op_cols < 2; op_cols++) if (((row + op_rows) >= 0) && ((col + op_cols) >= 0)) compass1 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op1 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass2 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op2 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass3 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op3 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass4 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op4 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass5 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op5 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass6 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op6 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass7 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op7 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; compass8 += ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * compass_op8 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]; if (compass1 < compass2) value = compass2; value = compass1; if (value < compass3) value = compass3; if (value < compass4) value = compass4; if (value < compass5) value = compass5; if (value < compass6) value = compass6; if (value < compass7) value = compass7; if (value < compass8) value = compass8; magnitude_image [row][col] = (char) value; void laplace1 (row,col) int row,col; int op_rows, op_cols; magnitude_image [row][col] = 0; for (op_rows = -1; op_rows < 2; op_rows++) for (op_cols = -1; op_cols < 2; op_cols++) if (((row + op_rows) >= 0) && ((col + op_cols) >= 0)) magnitude_image [row][col] = (char) ((int)magnitude_image [row][col] + ((int) input_image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols] * laplace_op1 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1])); main () file *original_image_fp; file *laplace1_mag_fp,*laplace2_mag_fp,*laplace3_mag_fp; file *compass_mag_fp; int row, col, algo_count; original_image_fp = fopen ("input.image","rb"); laplace1_mag_fp = fopen ("laplace1_magnitude","wb"); compass_mag_fp = fopen ("compass_magnitude","wb"); fread ((unsigned char *) input_image,sizeof(unsigned char),imageheight * imagewidth,original_image_fp); for (algo_count = 0; algo_count < 2;algo_count ++) for (row = 0; row < imageheight; row++) for (col = 0; col < imagewidth; col++) if (!algo_count) laplace1 (row,col); compass (row,col); if (!algo_count) fwrite(magnitude_image,sizeof(char),imageheight * imagewidth,laplace1_mag_fp); fwrite(magnitude_image,sizeof(char),imageheight * imagewidth,compass_mag_fp); | .-, ###|for a lot of .au music: ftp sounds.sdsu.edu | / / __ , _ ###|then cat file.au > /dev/audio | \_>/ >_/ (_/\_/<>_ |ub library catalog:telnet bison.acsu.buffalo.edu |_ 14261 _|(when in doubt ask: xarchie, xgopher, or xwais.) 
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 hi steve, as the author of multiverse, i feel i had better respond to your mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed to compile this software - the quick answer is yes! the long answer is yes - but a few have had a few problems with their platforms - not all unix's are the same, you know! as far as "many bugs" go, it would probably be more useful to everyone (including you) if you were a bit more explicit! :-) platforms it has succesfully compiled and run on are: rs6000, dec ultrix sun solaris so it is possible. the main problem is that i don't have access to other platforms than the rs6000, so if there are portability problems then the only way i hear about them is by people letting me know and giving me a clue as to how to fix it. as far as the software not doing anything, do you really think i would bother releasing it, if that was the case? perhaps you didn't read the few docs that are supplied. the dogfight world is made up of clients only, so if you're in there on your own, then you're not going to see anything! the dactyl world has quite a lot of scenary - so if you don't see anything there, then this is definitely a problem! one final word - if you're not interested, don't bother with it. if you are interested, then please remember that i'm not asking for any money! so why not try a little patience and constructive criticism, maybe that will get results?? robert@acsc.com 
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 boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq: given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is, center and radius, exactly fitting those points? i know how to do it for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in 3-d. i have checked some geometry books, graphics gems, and farin, but am still at a loss? please have mercy on me and provide the solution? ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research (206)543-4535 bolson@u.washington.edu (preferred) bolson@max.bitnet bolson@milton.u.washington.edu (if you must) 
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 the harvard computer society is pleased to announce its third lecture of the spring. ivan sutherland, the father of computer graphics and an innovator in microprocessing, will be speaking at harvard university on tuesday, april 20, 1993, at 4:00 pm in aiken computations building, room 101. the title of his talk is "logical effort and the conflict over the control of information." cookies and tea will be served at 3:30 pm in the aiken lobby. admissions is free, and all are welcome. aiken is located north of the science center near the law school. for more information, send e-mail to eekim@husc.harvard.edu. the lecture will be videotaped, and a tape will be made available. eugene kim '96 | "give me a place to stand, and i will internet: eekim@husc.harvard.edu | move the earth." --archimedes 
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 has anyone who has ordered the new pc version of imagine actually recieved it yet? i'm just about ready to order but reading posts about people still awaiting delivery are making me a little paranoid. has anyone actually held this piece of software in their own hands? jim nobles 
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 hi there, i've made a vga mode 13h graphics library available via ftp. i originally wrote the routines as a kind of exercise for myself, but perhaps someone here will find them useful. they are certainly useable as they are, but are missing some higher-level functionality. they're intended more as an intro to mode 13h programming, a starting point. *** the library assumes a 386 processor, but it is trivial to modify it *** for a 286. if enough people ask, i'll make the mods and re-post it as a *** different version. the routines are written in assembly (tasm) and are callable from c. they are fairly simple, but i've found them to be very fast (for my purposes, anyway). routines are included to enter and exit mode 13h, define a "virtual screen", put and get pixels, put a pixmap (rectangular image with no transparent spots), put a sprite (image with see-thru areas), copy areas of the virtual screen into video memory, etc. i've also included a simple c routine to draw a line, as well as a c routine to load a 256 color gif image into a buffer. i also wrote a quick'n'dirty(tm) demo program that bounces a bunch of sprites around behind three "windows". the whole package is available on spang.camosun.bc.ca in /pub/dos/vgl.zip it is zipped with pkzip 2.04g it is completely in the public domain, as far as i'm concerned. do with it whatever you like. however, it'd be nice to get credit where it's due, and maybe an e-mail telling me you like it (if you don't like it don't bother) morley@camosun.bc.ca 
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 boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq: given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is, center and radius, exactly fitting those points? i know how to do it for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in 3-d. i have checked some geometry books, graphics gems, and farin, but am still at a loss? please have mercy on me and provide the solution? wouldn't this require a hyper-sphere. in 3-space, 4 points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see. unless that is you can prove that a point exists in 3-space that is equi-distant from the 4 points, and this may not necessarily happen. correct me if i'm wrong (which i quite possibly am!) | steven collins | email: steve@crl.hitachi.co.jp | | visiting computer graphics researcher | phone: (0423)-23-1111 | | hitachi central research lab. tokyo. | fax: (0423)-27-7742 | 
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 boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq: given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is, center and radius, exactly fitting those points? i know how to do it for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in 3-d. i have checked some geometry books, graphics gems, and farin, but am still at a loss? please have mercy on me and provide the solution? it's not a bad question: i don't have any refs that list this algorithm either. but thinking about it a bit, it shouldn't be too hard. 1) take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as the circle that they lie on (you say you have this algorithm already) 2) find the center of this circle. the line passing through this center perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of the sphere. 3) repeat with the unused point and two of the original points. this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere's origin. their interection is the center of the sphere. 4) the radius is easy to compute, it's just the distance from the center to any of the original points. i'll leave the math to you, but this is a workable algorithm. :-) an alternate method would be to take pairs of points: the plane formed by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the center of the sphere. three pairs will form three planes, intersecting at a point. this might be easier to implement. spworley@netcom.com 
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 does anyone out there in net-land have any information on the cobra 2.20 card? the sticker on the end of the card reads model: cobra 1-b-1 bios: cobra v2.20 i havn't been able to find anything about it from anyone! if you have any information on how to get a hold of the company which produces the card or know where any drivers are for it, please let me know! as far as i can tell, it's a cga card that is taking up 2 of my 16-bit isa slots but when i enable the test patterns, it displays much more than the usualy 4 cga colors... at least 16 from what i can count.. thanks! : internet: jele@eis.calstate.edu : : bbs.mirage@gilligan.tsoft.net : : bbs.mirage@tsoft.sf-bay.org : : mirage@thetech.com : : uucp : apple.com!tsoft!bbs.mirage : computer and video imaging major 
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 to:all does anybody have the source code to the externel processes that comes with 3d studio, and mabe som kind of doc for writing the processes your self. /lars +++ author: lars_jorgensen@p7.syntax.bbs.bad.se, syntax bbs, denmark --- golded 2.41 
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 |> one more time: is there any >free< ocr software out there? |> i ask this question periodically and haven't found anything. this is |> the last time. if i don't find anything, i'm going to write some |> myself. |> post here or email me if you have any leads or suggestions, else just |> sit back and wait for me. :) |> ab i'm not sure if this is free or shareware, but you can try to look to wsmrsimtel20.army.mil, directory pd1:<msdos.deskpub> file ocr104.zip . from the file simibm.lst : ocr104.zip b 93310 910424 optical character recognition for scanners. hope this helps. roman valo valo@cvt.stuba.cs slovak technical university 
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 boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq: center and radius, exactly fitting those points? i know how to do it for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in 3-d. i have checked some geometry books, graphics gems, and farin, but am still at a loss? please have mercy on me and provide the solution? off the top of my head, i might try: given: p_1, p_2, p_3, p_4 find: p_c (center of sphere determined by p_1, ..., p_4), dist(p_c, p_i) (radius) p_c is the same distance from our four points, so dist(p_c,p_1) = dist(p_c,p_2) = dist(p_c,p_3) = dist(p_c,p_4) of course, we can square the whole thing to get rid of square roots: distsq(p_c,p_1) = distsq(p_c,p_2) = distsq(p_c,p_3) = distsq(p_c,p_4) plug in the variables into the distance formula, simplify, and the x^2_c, y^2_c, and z^2_c terms cancel out, leaving you with three linearly independent equations and three unknowns (x_c, y_c, z_c). solve using your favorite method. :) all the best, - john :) dr. john s. eickemeyer :: "the lord god is subtle, information technology institute :::: but malicious he is not." national computer board, singapore :: email: johne@iti.gov.sg :: - albert einstein 
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 would someone please email the new avi file format. i'm sure that many people would like to know what it is exactly. thank you mark gregory lecturer m.gregory@rmit.edu.au ph(03)6603243 fax(03)6621060 royal melbourne institute of technology, department of communication and electronic engineering, p.o. box 2476v, melbourne, victoria, 3001. australia. mark gregory lecturer m.gregory@rmit.edu.au ph(03)6603243 fax(03)6621060 royal melbourne institute of technology, department of communication and electronic engineering, p.o. box 2476v, melbourne, victoria, 3001. australia. 
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 dutc0006@student.tc.umn.edu writes in article <c5g7qb.bmp@news2.cis.umn.edu>: some vesa bios's support this mode (0x100). and *any* vga should be able to support this (640x480 by 256 colors) since it only requires 256,000 bytes. my 8514/a vesa tsr supports this; it's the only vesa mode by card can support due to 8514/a restrictions. (a wd/paradise) i am not responsible for anything i do or say -- i'm just an opinion. robert j.c. kyanko (rob@rjck.uucp) ahh no. possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator. 256 color modes take a byte per pixel so 640 time 480 is 307,200 which is 300k to be exact. 640x400x256 only takes 250k but i don't think it is a bios mode. i wouldn't bet that all vga cards can do that either. if a vga card has 512k i bet it can do both 640x400 and 640x480. that by definition is svga, though not very high svga. yes, i did punch in the wrong numbers (working too many late nites). i intended on stating 640x400 is 256,000 bytes. it's not in the bios, just my vesa tsr. i am not responsible for anything i do or say -- i'm just an opinion. robert j.c. kyanko (rob@rjck.uucp) 
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 a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview. since he isn't in the position to post this himself, he asked me to post it for him, but to leave his name out. so here it comes: cview has quite a number of bugs. the one you mention is perhaps the most annoying, but not the most dangerous. as far as i can determine, it has to do with the temp files that cview creates. cview gives the user no control over where it places its temp files: it just places them in its "current directory". the problem you mention occurs (as far as i can tell) when it runs out of disk space for its temp files. it seems as if cview doesn't check properly for this situation. as cview decodes a jpeg, it seems to write out a temp file with all the pixel data with 24 bit colour information. then, for 8 bit displays, it does the "dithering", again writing another file with the 8 bit colour information. while it is writing this second file, it also writes the data to your colour card. then when it does the last chunk of 8 bit data, it recopies all the data from the 8 bit file to your screen again. (it does this last "recopy" operation for its "fit to screen" feature, even when this feature is not enabled.) the result of this process is the following: 1) if it runs out of disk space when writing the first 24 bit file, all you ever see is as much data as it has room for, and the last bit of data is simply repeated over and over again because cview never realizes the disk has filled up and disk writes/reads aren't performed. 2) if it has enough room for the 24 bit data, but runs out of room for the 8 bit data, you see almost all of the picture as it does the dithering and writes to the screen card. however, then when it finishes the dithering and recopies the data from the 8 bit file to screen (for whatever reason it does this) one again just gets a repetition of the last chunk of data for which there was room on the disk. this is just a guess, but probably fairly accurate. at least the general idea is on track i think, although i have probably made errors in details about file i/o etc. the way around this is of course to clear up sufficient disk space. the temp files for large jpeg's (1200x900 and bigger) can be very large (3 meg + 1 meg ). on some of the largest i have needed in excess of 6 meg free disk space. cview has a much more serious bug: if you are trying to display a file from a floppy, and you change floppies while cview has some temp file open on the floppy, then cview in certain circumstances will write the directory (and fat table? i can't remember) for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted floppy, thus corruptimg the new floppy in a very serious, possibly unrevcoverable way. so be careful! it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this. on the other hand, when choosing files in the open files menu, cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi-lighter square. incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info. and really, how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing? with much thanks to the originator of this article. | rene walter | renew@stack.urc.tue.nl | | "will i drown in tears of sorrow, is there hope for tomorrow, | | will this world ever get better, can't we all just live together | | i don't wanna live in strife , i just wanna live my life | | i deserve to have a future..." | | -the good girls "future" | 
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 yes, please create the group alt.raytrace soon!! i'm hooked on pov. geez. like i don't have anything better to do.... oh!! dave letterman is on... 
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 is there any program available (free or otherwise) for taking a tiff or gif or some other bitmapped file and turning it (or parts of it) into ascii dos, os/2 or platform independent programs if possible. 
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 i'm hoping someone out there will be able to help our computer science project group. we are doing computer science honours, and our project is to do a 'graphical simulator for a finite state automata'. basically, the program must draw a diagram of a fsa from a textual grammar, showing circles for states, and labeled arc's in-between. the problem is working out the best way to layout the states, and draw the arc's in-between so that as few arc's as possible cross each other. if anyone has any suggestions/algorithms/bug-free ready to compile c code :) that might help us, it would be much appreciated. thanks in advance, 
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 hi to all out there. we have this problem, and i'm not certain i'm solving it in the correct way. i was wondering if anyone can shed light on this, or point me in the right place to look... we have an x-ray imaging camera and a metallic tube with a cylindrical hole passing through it at a right angle to the tube's axis: || [ image x-ray source ] || | screen metallic || tube | we know source--screen centre distance, radius of the tube, radius of the hole. we do some calculations based on the image of the hole on the screen. however, the calculations are mathematically highly complex, and must assume that the object's hole projects an image (resembling an ellipse if the tube is not parallel to the screen) in the centre of the screen. however, it is unlikely that the object is placed so conveniently. firstly, we must transform the major and minor axis of the ellipse. i cannot know what the angle between the tube and screen is. do i have to assume that they are parallel to do the transformation? how do i do this transformation? secondly, there is a distortion of the image due to the screen being planar (the source--screen distance increases as we move away from the centre of the screen). how can i compensate the ellipse's axis for this image distortion? so, please can anyone give us a few pointers here? how do we transform the image so it appears as it would if it were in the centre of the screen, and how do i deal with distortion due to the shape of the screen? we'd appreciate any help, either posted or emailed. thanks in advance, simon. simon marshall, dept. of computer science, university of hull, hull hu6 7rx, uk "football isn't about life and death. it's more important than that." bill email: s.marshall@cs.hull.ac.uk phone: +44 482 465951 fax: 466666 shankley 
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 boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq: given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is, center and radius, exactly fitting those points? i know how to do it for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in 3-d. i have checked some geometry books, graphics gems, and farin, but am still at a loss? please have mercy on me and provide the solution? wouldn't this require a hyper-sphere. in 3-space, 4 points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see. unless that is you can prove that a point exists in 3-space that is equi-distant from the 4 points, and this may not necessarily happen. correct me if i'm wrong (which i quite possibly am!) sorry!! :-) call the four points a, b, c and d. any three of them must be non-collinear (otherwise all three could not lie on the surface of a sphere) and all four must not be coplaner (otherwise either they cannot all lie on a sphere or they define an infinity of them). a, b and c define a circle. the perpendicular bisectors of ab, bc and ca meet in a point (p, say) which is the centre of this circle. this circle must lie on the surface of the desired sphere. consider the normal to the plane abc passing through p. all points on this normal are equidistant from a, b and c and its circle (in fact it is a diameter of the desired sphere). take the plane containing this normal and d (if d lies on the normal any plane containing the normal will do); this plane is at right angles to the abc one. let e be the point (there are normally two of them) on the circumference of the abc circle which lies in this plane. we need a point q on the normal such that eq = dq. but the intersection of the perpendicular bisector of ed and the normal is such a point (and it exists since d is not in the plane abc, and so ed is not at right angles to the normal). algorithm: is the sphere well defined? (1) check that a and b are not coincident (=> failure). (2) find the line ab and check that c does not lie on it (=> failure). (3) find the plane abc and check that d does not lie in it (=> failure). yes. find its centre. (1) find the perpendicular bisectors of ab and ac. (2) find their point of intersection (p). (3) find the normal to the plane abc passing through p (line n). (4) find the plane containing n and d; find the point e on the abc circle in this plane (if d lies on n, take e as a). (4) find the perpendicular bisector of ed (line l) (5) find the point of intersection of n and l (q). q is the centre of the desired sphere pictures: (1) in the plane abc b c (2) at right-angles to abc, in the plane containing n and d line n --------------------p-------------q--------------------------- numerically: if ed << ep then q will be very close to p (relative to the radius of the abc circle) and subject to error. it's best to choose d so that the least of ad, bd and cd is larger than for any other choice. bob douglas computing services, university of oxford internet: bob@oxford.ac.uk address: 13 banbury road, oxford ox2 6nn, uk telephone: +44-865-273211 
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 i purchased my new 486 with a noname graphics card installed which is obviously speedstar 24 compatible. its name is "vga 4000 truecolor". it is accompanied with some drivers and the utilities vmode, xmode and at least one more mode, as well as some drivers for lotus, windows, etc. only one of the drivers is told to provide the truecolor mode, namely the windows 3.1 driver. nowhere else, except in the ad, is any pointer to the truecolor mode. some articles in this group about the speedstar 24 and some other facts made me believe that my card is compatible to that one. does anybody out there know how this mode can be adjusted? how can i write a driver which allows me to have 16.7 millions of colors with a resolution of 640 x 480 with 45 hz interlaced ? 
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 hi everyone-- it's spend-the-money-before-it-goes-away time here at u.florida and we need to find some pc-based software that will do contour plotting with irregular boundaries,i.e., a 2-d profile of a soil system with a pond superimposed /----------------- on it. we've given surfer a pond / | trial run but it interpolates / | contours out into the pond and/or ----------/ | creates artifacts at the borders. | soil | if anyone out there knows of a | | product, i'ld appreciate hearing |________________________________| about it. if there is enough of a response, i'll post a summary. thanks -- (and now back to lurking). steve bloom, soil & water science, u.fl (sab@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu) 
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 given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is, cnter and radius, exactly fitting those points? the equation of the sphere through the 4 points (x1,y1,z1),...,(x4,y4,z4) is | x^2+y^2+z^2 x1^2+y1^2+z1^2 ... x4^2+y4^2+z4^2 | | x x1 ... x4 | | y y1 ... y4 | = 0 | z z1 ... z4 | | 1 1 ... 1 | when this 5 by 5 determininant is expanded on its first column you get the equation in the form a(x^2+y^2+z^2) + bx + cy + dz + e = 0 if you need the center and radius, jyst divide through by a (it cannot be zero if the 4 given points form a non-degenerate tetrahedron) and complete the square on x, y, and z to obtain (x-xc)^2 + (y-yc)^2 + (z-zc)^2 = r^2 rcb@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu (bob beach) 
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 does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is? is there any reference to it? is it useful for creating 3-d objects? if yes, what's the advantage? there is a vast literature on delaunay triangulations, literally hundreds of papers. a program is even provided with every copy of mathematica nowadays. you might look at this if you are interested in using it for creating 3d objects: @article{boissonnat5, author = "j.d. boissonnat", title = "geometric structures for three-dimensional shape representation", journal = "acm transactions on graphics", month = "october", year = {1984}, volume = {3}, number = {4}, pages = {266-286} 
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 i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon. does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject ? | function : puntbinnenpolygoon | | auteur : cornelis wessels | | datum : 11-01-1993 | | omschrijving: bepaalt of de aangeboden vector2d p binnen of op de | | rand van het polygoon p valt. | | wijzigingen : - | clibstatus puntbinnenpolygoon ( polygoon *p, vector2d *p ) vector2d o, v, w; index aantal_snijpunten, n, n; aantal_snijpunten = 0; n = geefpolygoonlengte(p); geefpolygoonrandpunt ( p, n, &o ); for ( n=1; n<=n; n++ ) geefpolygoonrandpunt ( p, n, &v ); if ( o.x >= p->x && v.x < p->x || o.x < p->x && v.x >= p->x ) w.x = p->x; interpoleerlineair ( &o, &v, &w ); if ( w.x == p->x && w.y == p->y ) return(clibsucces); else if ( w.y > p->y ) aantal_snijpunten++; kopieervector2d ( &v, &o ); if ( aantal_snijpunten%2 == 0 ) return(cliberbuiten); return(clibsucces); cornelis wessels krommenoord 14 3079 zt rotterdam the netherlands +31 10 4826394 kewe@bskewe.atr.bso.nl 
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 in <1pr9qninniag@tahko.lpr.carel.fi>, does anybody know if there are any good 2d-graphics packages available for ibm rs/6000 & aix ? i'm looking for something like dec's gks or hewlett-packards starbase, both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters, terminals, x etc. try graphigs from ibm... it is an excellent package! :^) doug egan "it's not what you got - lockheed engineering and sciences co. it's what you give." houston, tx -tesla ***** email: egan@blkbox.com ***** 
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 |> 1. how vesa standard works? any documentation for vesa standard? the vesa standard can be requested from vesa: 2150 north first street, suite 440 san jose, ca 95131-2029 ask for the vesa vbe and super vga programming starndards. vesa also defines local bus and other standards. the vesa standard only addresses ways in which an application can find out info and capabilities of a specific super vga implementation and to control the video mode selection and video memory access. you still have to set your own pixels. |> 2. at a higher resolution than 320x200x256 or 640x480x16 vga mode, |> where the video memory a0000-affff is no longer sufficient to hold |> all info, what is the trick to do fast image manipulation? i |> heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know |> nothing on how it is implemented. any advice, anyone? vesa defines a "window" that is used to access video memory. this window is anchored at the spot where you want to write, and then you can write as far as the window takes you (usually 64k). windows have granularities, so you can't just anchor them anywhere. also, some implementations allow two windows. |> 3. my interest is in 640x480x256 mode. should this mode be called |> svga mode? what is the technique for fast image scrolling for the |> above mode? how to deal with different svga cards? this is vesa mode 101h. there is a set display start function that might be useful for scrolling. |> your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions |> would be greatly appreciated. please send me mail. your best bet is to write vesa for the info. there have also been announcements on this group of vesa software. karl schultz schultz@vnet.ibm.com these statements or opinions are not necessarily those of ibm 
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 hi netters, i'm building a cad package and need a 3d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks, such as hidden line removal, shading, animation, etc. can you please offer some recommendations? it's really not that hard to do. there are books out there which explain everything, and the basic 3d functions, translation, rotation, shading, and hidden line removal are pretty easy. i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book, and would be happy to give you my source. also, quickdraw has a lot of 3d functions built in, and think pascal can access them, and i would expect that think c could as well. if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library, it would be an excellent choice, since it has a lot of stuff, and is built into the mac, so should be libertarian, atheist, semi-anarchal techno-rat. i define myself--tsa@cellar.org 
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 hi, i'm looking for the 3-d studio driver for the oak card with 1 m of ram. this would be greatly (and i mean that) appreciated maybe i should have just gotten a more well know card. seth@acpub.duke.edu 
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 : i'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question. if not, : please forgive me and point me in the right direction. : does anybody know of a program that converts .gif files to .bmp files : and if so, where can i ftp it from? any help would be greatly : appreciated. : please respond via e-mail as i do not read this group very often. : thanks...scott sorry scott, if you post it here, you can read it here. there is a shareware program available via anonymous ftp that will suit your needs. you'll find it at oak.oakland.edu in the subdirectory pub/msdos/graphics. the file is called "grfwk61t.zip." (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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 i wanted to know if any of you out there can recommend a good book about graphics, still and animated, and in vga/svga. thanks in advance mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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 we need a good concave ->convex polygon conversion routine. i've tried a couple without much luck. please e-mail responses and i will post a summary of any replies. thank you. richard stoakley rws2v@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu the problem is not precisely defined above, but if you need to find the smallest convex polygon that encloses a given polygon, then you are seeking the convex hull of your original polygon. there are two ways to do this: use a somewhat tricky but by-now well examined linear-time algorithm that exploits the polygon boundary, or just feed the vertices of the original polygon to a convex hull routine and accept o(n log n). both methods are discussed in preparata and shamos, for example. 
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 archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part2 last-modified: 1993/04/17 computer graphics resource listing : weekly posting [ part 2/3 ] last change : 17 april 1993 14. plotting packages gnuplot 3.2 it is one of the best 2- and 3-d plotting packages, with online help.it's a command-line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix, msdos, amiga, archimedes, and vms platforms (at least!). freely distributed, it supports many terminals, plotters, and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices. it was posted to comp.sources.misc in version 3.0, plus 2 patches. you can practically find it everywhere (use archie to find a site near you!). the comp.graphics.gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot. xvgr and xmgr (ace/gr) xmgr is an xy-plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows. there is an xview version called xvgr for suns. collectively, these 2 tools are known as ace/gr. compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version 1.1 and x11r4 - xmgr will not compile under x11r3/motif 1.0x. check at ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu [129.95.72.34} in /ccalmr/pub/acegr/xmgr-2.09.tar.z (motif version) /ccalmr/pub/acegr/xvgr-2.09.tar.z (xview version) comments, suggestions, bug reports to paul j turner <pturner@amb4.ese.ogi.edu> (if mail fails, try pturner@ese.ogi.edu). due to time constraints, replies will be few and far between. release 0.45 : 2-d and limited 3-d. based on xview 3, written in c / fortran (so you need a fortran compiler or the f2c translator). mainly tested on sun4, less on decstations. check at ftp.astro.psu.edu (128.118.147.28), pub/astrod. vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot.ceee.nist.gov [129.6.64.151] it's being developed at bellcore, and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration. you can call it from the s language also, and it works as an x11 client using the athena widget set (or with an ascii terminal). it's distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu. to get it via e-mail, send email to statlib@temper.stat.cmu.edu and in the body area of the message, put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp, connect to lib.stat.cmu.edu. log in as "statlib" and use your e-mail address as your password. then type cd general mget xgobi.* warning: it's about 2 mb sources + large postscript manual. read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not. runs on vax/vms and supposedly on unix. it's a set of fortran routines freely available (though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of $50 or so) that includes contour plots and support for various devices, including ps. contact tjp@deimos.caltech.edu host shorty.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.8] : /pub/ggraph.tar.z unknown more details. for pcs. call dvj@lab2.phys.lgu.spb.su (vladimir j. dmitriev) for details. you can get the program demo or (and) play version, if sent 10 $ to 1251 budapest posta fiok 60 ph/fax 1753696 budapest ph 2017760 multiplot xln for amigas, shareware ($30 usd, #20 uk or $40 aust.). advanced 2d package that has a big list of features. contact: dr. alan baxter <agb16@mbuc.bio.cam.ac.uk>, cambridge university department of pathology, tennis court road, cambridge cb2 1qp, uk +athena plotter widget set + this version v6.0 is based on gregory bond's version v5-beta. added + some stuff for scientific graphs, i.e. log axes, free scalable axes, + xy-lineplots and some more, and re-added plotter callbacks from v4, e.g. + to request the current pointer position, or to cut off a rectangle from the + plotting area for zooming-in. version v6.0 has a log of bugs fixed and a + log of improvements against v6-beta. additionally i did some other + changes/extensions, besides + - origin and frame lines for axes. + - subgrid lines on subtic positions. + - line plots in different line types (lines, points, lines+points, + impulses, lines+impulses, steps, bars), line styles (solid, dotted, + dashed, dot-dashed) and marker types for data points. + - legend at the right or left hand side of the plot. + - optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window. + - layout callback for aligning axis positions when using + multiple plotters in one application. + available at export.lcs.mit.edu, directory contrib/plotter +sciplot + sciplot is a scientific 2d plotting and manipulation program. + for the next (requires nextstep 3.0), and it's shareware. + features: + ascii import and export; eps export; copy, cut, paste with data buffer; + free number of data points, data buffer, and document window; + selective open and save ; plotting in many styles; automatic legend; + subviews; linear and logarithmic axes; two different axes; text and graphic; + color support; zoom; normalizing and moving; axis conversions; + free hand data manipulations (cut, edit, move, etc.); data editor; sorting + of data; absolute,relative, and free defined error bars; + calculating with buffers (+, -, *, / ); background subtractions + (linear,shirley,tougaard, bezier); integration and relative integration; + fitting of one or more free defined functions; linear regression; + calculations (+, -, *, /, sin, cos, log, etc.); function generator; + spline interpolation; least square smooth and fft smooth; differentiation; + fft; esca calculations and database; .. and something more + you can find it on: + ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.7] : /pub/next/science/sciplot3.1.tar.z + author: + michael wesemann + scillerstr. 73,1000 berlin 12, germany + mike@fiasko.rz-berlin.mpg.de +plplot + plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems, small (micro) + and large (super) alike. despite its small size and quickness, + it has enough power to satisfy most users, including: + standard x-y plots, semilog plots, log-log plots, contour plots, 3d plots, + mesh plots, bar charts and pie charts. multiple graphs (of the same or + different sizes) may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each + graph. different line styles, widths and colors are supported. a virtually + infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used. there are + almost 1000 characters in the extended character set. this includes four + different fonts, the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical, musical, and + other symbols. the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects. + many different output device drivers are available (system dependent), + including a portable metafile format and renderer. + freely available (but copyrighted) via anonymous ftp on + hagar.ph.utexas.edu, directory pub/plplot + at present (v. 4.13), plplot is known to work on the following systems: + unix: sunos, a/ix, hp-ux, unicos, dg/ux, ultrix + other platforms: vms, amiga/exec, ms-dos, os/2, next + authors: many. the main supporters are: + maurice lebrun <mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: plplot kernel and the metafile, + xterm, xwindow, tektronix, and amiga drivers. + geoff furnish <furnish@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: ms-dos and os/2 drivers + tony richardson <amr@egr.duke.edu>: plplot on the next +supermongo + 2-d plotting package at cmu, filename ~re00/tmp/sm.2.1.0.tar.z + (probably under the ftp.cmu.edu or andrew.cmu.edu machines?) +gle + gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists. it runs on a + variety of platforms (pcs, vaxes, and unix) with drivers for xwindows, + regis, tek4010, pc graphics cards, vt100s, hp plotters, postscript + printers, epson-compatible printers and laserjet/paintjet printers. it + provides latex quality fonts, as well as full support for postscript + fonts. the graphing module provides full control over all features of + graphs. the graphics primitives include user-defined subroutines for + complex pictures and diagrams. + accompanying utilities include surface (for hidden line surface + plotting), contour (for contour plots), manip (for manipulation of + columnar data files), and fitls (for fitting arbitrary equations to + data). + mailing list: glelist. send a message to + listserver@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu, with a message boyd containing + sub glelist "your name" + maintainer: dean pentcheff <dean2@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu> 15. image analysis software - image processing and display pc and mac-based tools (multi-platform software) imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites. can do simple display, enhancing, smoothing and so on. works with the fits and vicar/pds data formats of nasa. can read tiff images, if you know their dimensions [pc and macs] labview 2 labview is used as a framework for image processing tools. it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the "program" with graphical elements representing the programming elements. hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram (program). functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering, numerical analysis, statistics, etc. the tool allows any virtual instrument (vi, a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument) to be used as a part of any other virtual national instruments markets plug-in digital signal processing (dsp) boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real-time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer. new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology. the tools range from low-level debugging software to high-level block diagram development software. there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb-dsp2300 board and labview: use of the nb-dsp2300 analysis library: ffts, power spectra, filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop (mpw) c that execute on the nb-dsp2300 board. there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready-to-use vis optimized for the nb-dsp2300. use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler, an assembler and a linker for low-level programming of the dsp hardware. this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use. use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb-dsp2300 board. (this is the easiest route for the development of custom code.) ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek-france is a family of image processing virtual instruments (vis) that give labview 2 (described above) users high-end tools for designing, integrating and monitoring imaging control systems. a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument. typical applications for concept vi include thermography, surveillance, machine vision, production testing, biomedical imaging, electronic microscopy and remote sensing. ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis. it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement, histogram equalization, spatial and frequency filtering, isolation of features, thresholding, mathematical morphology analysis, density measurement, object counting, sizing and the program loads images with a minimum resolution of 64 by 64, a pixel depth of 8, 16, or 32 bits, and one image plane. standard input and output formats include pict, tiff, satie, and aipd. other formats can be imported. image enhancement features include lookup table transformations, spatial linear and non-linear filters, frequency filtering, arithmetic and logic operations, and geometric transformations, among others. morphological transformations include erosion, dilation, opening, closing, hole removal, object separation, and extraction of skeletons, among others. quantitative analysis provides for objects' detection, measurement, and morphological distribution. measures include area, perimeter, center of gravity, moment of inertia, orientation, length of relevant chords, and shape factors and equivalence. measures are saved in ascii format. the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom a 3-d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot. the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale. the twenty-eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for: masking and averaging sections of images, noise removal, making comparisons, etc. there are 13 spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity. these include high-pass filters for contrast and outlines. the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the (real , imaginary ) components or the (phase, magnitude) data. the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts. the transformations include: thresholding, eroding, dilating and even hole filling. the program's quantitative analysis measurements include: area, perimeter, center of mass, object counts, and angle between points. gtfs, inc. 2455 bennett valley road #100c santa rosa, ca 95494 707-579-1733 iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek-franceus ultimage concept vi. using scripting tools, the user tells the system the operations to be performed. the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention. the tool supports: ffts, 16 arithmetic operations for pixel alteration, and a movie command for cycling through windows. macintosh-based tools ncsa image, ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public-domain visualization tools for the macintosh, primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations. these applications, documentation, and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass. spyglass, inc. 701 devonshire drive champaign, il 61820 (217) 355-6000 fax: 217 355 8925 nih image available at alw.nih.gov (128.231.128.7) or (preferably) zippy.nimh.nih.gov [128.231.98.32], directory:/pub/image. it has painting and image manipulation tools, a macro language, tools for measuring areas, distances and angles, and for counting things. using a frame grabber card, it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie. it can invoke user-defined convolution matrix filters, such as gaussian. it can import raw data in tab-delimited ascii, or as 1 or 2-byte quantities. it also does histograms and even 3-d plots. it is limited to 8-bits/pixel, though the 8 bits map into a color lookup table. it runs on any mac that has a 256-color screen and a fpu (or get the nonfpu version from zippy.nimh.nih.gov) data translation, inc. 100 locke dr. marlboro, ma 01752 508-481-3700 blue solutions 3039 marigold place thousand oaks, ca 91360 805-492-9973 pixeltools and tcl-image "complete family of pixeltools (hardware accelerator and applications software) for scientific image processing and analysis. video-rate capture, display, processing, and analysis of high-resolution monochromatic and color images. includes c source code." tcl-image: "software package for scientific, quantitative image processing and analysis. it provides a complete language for the capture, enhancement, and extraction of quantitative information from gray-scale images. tcl_image has over 200 functions for image processing, and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development -- variables and control structures. it is easily extensible through "script" (or indirect command) files. these script files are simply text files that contain tcl-image commands. they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters. the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards. tcl-image comes with the i-view utility that provides conversion between common image file types, such as pict2 and tiff." perceptics 725 pellissippi parkway knoxville, tn 37933 615-966-9200 satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures (raw data) and does all sorts of image enhancing on it. you'll need at least a mac ii with co- processor; a 256 color display and a large harddisk. the program doesn't run under system 7.x.ate1 v1 in the documentation the contact address is given as: liz smith, jet propulsion laboratory, ms 300-323, 4800 oak grove dr,.pasadena, ca 91109 (818) 354-6980 visualization workbench "an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific 2d and 3d plotting." paragon imagine 171 lincoln st. lowell, ma 01852 508-441-2112 adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with 24-bit images or 256 levels of grey scale. once an image has been imported it can be rre-toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh-based rpaints applications. these include an eraser, pencil, brush and air brush. advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated. for example, all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted. photoshop has transparencies ranging from 0 to 100%, allowing you to create ghost overlays. rphoto-editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast, color balancing, hue/saturation modification and spectrum equalization. images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image, blur edges, or locate edges. image scaling is also supported. for storage savings, the images can be compressed using standard algorithms, including externally supplied compression such as jpeg, availlable from storm technologies. the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including: epsf, epsf, tiff, pict resource, amiga iff/ilbm, compuserve gif, macpaint, pixar, pixelpaint, scitex ct, tga and thunderscan.. adobe systems, inc. 1585 charlestown road po box 7900 mountain view, ca 94039-7900 415-961-4400 colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image-editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use. several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop. the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the 30 mb range. the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the "auto selection tool" which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color, close hues, color range and mask. imagestudio: don't know... letraset usa 40 eisenhower drive paramus, nj 07653 201-845-6100 dapple systems "high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images, enhance and edit, and measure a variety of global or feature parameters, and interpret the data." dapple systems, 355 w. olive ave, #100 sunnyvale, ca 94086 408-733-3283 digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images. one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by "painting" it. a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections. a brush lets the operator "paint" with a selected portion of the image. note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool. this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey-scale images only. it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio. silicon beach software 9770 carroll ctr. rd., suite j san diego, ca 92126 619-695-6956 it is compatible with system 6.05 and system 7.0 , requires mac lc or ii series with 256 colours, with a recommended min of 6mb of ram. it has the capability of reading erdas files. functions include; image enhancement, 3d and contour plots, image statistics, supervised and unsupervised classification, pca and other image transformations. there is also a means (image operation language or iol) by which you can write your own transformations. there is no image rectification, however dimple is compatable with mapii. the latest version is 1.4 and it is in the beta stage of testing. dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose." "dimple runs on a colour macintosh. it is a product still in its development phase.. i.e. it doesn't have all the inbuilt features of other packages, but is coming along nicely. it has its own inbuilt language for writing "programs" for processing an image, defining convolution filters etc. dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc... it is unprotected software." process software solutions, po box 2110, wollongong, new south wales, australia. 2500. phone 61 42 261757 fax 61 42 264190. enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data. the tool has over 80 mathematical filter variations: "laplacian, medium noise filter", etc. files can be saved as either tiff, pict, epsf or text (however epsf files can't be imported). microfrontier 7650 hickman road des moines, ia 50322 515-270-8109 image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images. image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language. it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes, or enhancing and measuring distances in image analyst provides users with an array of field-proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance; count objects; determine density, shape, size, position, or movement; perform object feature extraction; and conduct textural analysis automatically. image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera, or a disk-stored image. within minutes, without the need for programming, the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image. measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi-automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images. image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size, shape and position. the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers. a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices. there are 2 types of files, the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing, measurements and analysis that the user defines. automated sequences are set up in regions of interest (roi) represented by movable, sizable boxes atop the image. inside a roi, the program can find the distance between two edges, the area of a shape, the thickness of a wall, etc. image analyst finds the center, edge and other positions automatically. the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object. it also supports histograms and a color look-up table (clut) tool. automatix, inc. 775 middlesex turnpike billerica, ma 01821 508-667-7900 signal analytics corp. 374 maple ave. e vienna, va 22180 703-281-3277 fax 703-281-2509 "menu-driven image processing software that supports 24-bit color or pseudocolor/grayscale image display and manipulation." map ii among the mac gis systems, map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis. from stanford : try anonymous ftp from sumex-aim.stanford.edu it has pd source for image v2, and ready to run code for a mac under image v3. windows/dos pc-based tools richard berry's ccd imaging book for willamon-bell contains (optional?) disks with image manipulating software. source code is included. "erdas will do all of the things you want: rectification, classification, transformations (canned & user-defined), overlays, filters, contrast enhancement, etc. ... i was using it on my thesis & then changed the topic a bit & that work became secondary." erdas, inc. 2801 buford highway suite 300 atlanta, ga 30329 404-248-9000 fax 404-248-9400 "i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd. in british columbia. its for ibm pc's or clones, cheap (about $400) and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful, though i have had only limited experience with erdas. i have used rsvga with 6 of 7 landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual" imagine-32 it's a 32 bit package [i suppose for pcs] called "imagine32" or "image32" the program does a modest amount of image processing --add, subtract, multiply, divide, display, and plot an x or y cut across the image. it can also display a number of images simultaneously. the company is compuscope, in santa barbara, ca. pc vista it was announced in the 1989 august edition of pasp. it is known to be available from mike richmond, whose email addresses have been richmond@bllac.berkeley.edu richmond@bkyast.berkeley.edu and his s-mail address is: michael richmond,astronomy department, campbell hall, berkeley, ca 94720 the latest version of pc-vista, version 1.7, includes not only the source code and help files, but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images. if you do wish to use the source code, you will need microsoft c, version 5.0 or later; other compilers may work, but will require substantial modifications. to receive the documentation and nine double-density (360k) floppies (or three quad-density 3-1/2 inch floppies (1.44m) with everything on them, just send a request for pc-vista, together with your name and a us-mail address, to office of technology licensing 2150 shattuck ave., suite 510 berkeley, ca. 94704 include a check (traveller's checks are fine) or purchase order for $150.00 in u.s. dollars, if your address is inside the continental u.s., or $165.00 otherwise, made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs. software tools it's a set of software "tools" put out by canyon state systems and software. they are not free, but rather cheap at about $30 i heard. it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber it's image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton. it will run on a pc among other platforms. it is a forth based system - i.e. a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in. data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers. surely you can find much more pc-related stuff in it. a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen386 which does maximum entropy image deconvolution. their company is named digital signal processing software, or something like that, and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine, either jan or feb 92 (an article on ccd's vs film). jandel scientific (java) another software package (java) is put out by jandel scientific. jandel scientific, 65 koch road, corte madera, ca 94925, (415) 924-8640, (800) 874-1888. runs on an ms dos platform and uses a 32 bit graphics card (vista), or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards. its a full blown remote sensed data processing system.. it is menu driven (character based screen), but is does not use a windowed user interface. its is hardware protected with a dongle. mbrian = micro barrier reef image anaysis system. it was developed by csiro (commonwealth scientific & industrial organization) and is marketed/ supported by: mpa australia (51 lusher road, croydon, victoria tel + 61 3 724 4488 fax +61 3 724 4455) there are educational and commercial prices, but be prepared to set aside $a10k for the first educational licence. subsequent ones come cheaper (they need to!) it has installed sites worldwide. it is widely used at anu. the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra-mar's microimage, on 486 pcs with some fancy display hardware. terra-mar resource information services, inc. 1937 landings drive mountain view, ca 94043 415-964-6900 fax 415-964-5430 unix-based tools iraf (image reduction and analysis facility) developed in the national optical astronomy observatory, kitt peak az it is free, you can ftp it from tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1] and complement it with stsdas from stsci.edu [130.167.1.2]. email to iraf@noao.edu for more details. apparently this is one of the _de facto_ standards in the astronomical image community. they issue a newsletter also. they seem to support very well their users. works with vms also last i heard, and practically has its own shell on top of the vms/unix shells. it's suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows. very flexible/extendable -- tons (literally 3 linear feet) of documentation for the general user, skilled user, and programmer. a sun-specific image toolkit. version 2.0.6 posted to comp.sources.sun on 11dec89. also available via email to alv-users-request@cs.bris.ac.uk. astronomical image processing system. contact: aipsmail@nrao.edu (also see the usenet newsgroups alt.sci.astro.aips and sci.astro.fits) built by nrao (national radio astronomy observatory, hq in charlottesville, va, sites in nm, az, wv). software distributed by 9-track, exabyte, dat, or (non-anonymous) internet ftp. documentation (postscript mostly) available via anonymous ftp to baboon.cv.nrao.edu (192.33.115.103), directory pub/aips and pub/aips/text/publ. installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler. this package can read and write fits data (see sci.astro.fits), and is primarily for reduction, analysis, and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes, particularly the very large array (vla), a synthesis instrument. it consists of almost 300 programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution, e.g. via maximum entropy. there is an x11-based image tool (xas) and a tek-compatible xterm-based graphics tool built into aips. the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model 70 display unit and can do image arithmetic, etc. the code is mostly fortran 77 with some system c language modules, and is available for suns, ibm rs/6000, dec/ultrix, convex, cray (unicos), and alliant with support planned for hp-9000/7xx, solaris 2.1, and maybe sgi. there is currently a project - "aips++" - underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting, using c++ and an object oriented approach. whereas aips is proprietary code (licensed for free to non-profit institutions) owner by nrao and the nsf, aips++ will be in the public domain at some level, as it is an international effort with contributions from the us, canada, england, the netherlands, india, and australia to name a few. (version 4.0 is out for x11) it's written in c, and currently runs on sun 3/xxx, sun 4/xxx (os3.5, 4.0 and 4.0.3) under sunview. the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp. it was used on the following domains: computer science (image analysis), medicine, biology, physics. it is distributed free of charge (source code). available via anonymous ftp at ftp.ads.com (128.229.30.16), in pub/vision-list-archive/shareware/laboimage_* contact: prof. thierry pun, computer vision group computing science center, u-geneva 12, rue du lac, ch-1207 geneva switzerland phone : +41(22) 787 65 82; fax: +41(22) 735 39 05 e-mail: pun@cui.unige.ch or pun@cgeuge51.bitnet it was originally made for vms, and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia (ks@aaoepp.aao.gov.au) and for unix from sam southard at caltech (sns@deimos.caltech.edu). it's about 110mbytes on a sun. moved to the scientific visualization category below the "real thing" is available via anonymous ftp from lowell.edu. email to vista@lowell.edu for more details. total size less than 20mbytes. (device independent software for image processing) is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times. feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options. all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive. this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function. such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of processes include image rectification, classification (unsupervised and supervised), intensity transformations, three dimensional display and principal component analysis. disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering, band subtraction and host configuration requirements running on unix workstations, disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times. disimp is available in both runtime and programmer's environments. using the programmers environment, utilities can be developed for specific applications programs. graphics are governed by an icon-based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image. manipulations of look up tables, colour stretches, changes to histograms, zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control. a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image, graphic and textual types. images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems, providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing. overlays of grids, text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery. the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment, including the amount of help required. disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras. the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data. for further information, please contact: the business manager, clough engineering group systems division, 627 chapel street, south yarra, australia 3141. telephone: +61 3 825 5555 fax: +61 3 826 6463 global imaging software "we use global imaging software to process avhrr data, from the dish to the final display. select a chunk of five band data from a pass, automatic navigation, calibrate it to albedo and temp, convert that to byte, register it to predesigned window, all relatively automatically and carefree. it has no classification routines to speak of, but it isn't that difficult to write your own with their programmer's module. very small operation: one designs, one codes, one sells. been around for a number of years, sold to weather service and navy. runs on hp9000 with hp-ux. supports 24-bit display" (human information processing laboratory's image processing system) michael landy co-wrote and sell a general-purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications (robotics, medical, satellite, engineering, oil exploration, etc.). it is called hips, and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images. it has been growing since we first wrote it, both by additions from us as well as a huge user-contributed library. feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research, system development and teaching. it handles sequences of images (movies) in precisely the same manner as single frames. programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations, filtering, convolution, fourier and other transform processing, edge detection and line drawing manipulation, digital image compression and transmission methods, noise generation, and image statistics computation. over 150 such image transformation programs have been developed. as a result, almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently. additionally, hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines. new users become effective using hips on their first day. hips features images that are self-documenting. each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image. hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header, and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix ``filters''. it comes complete with source code, on-line manual pages, and on-line documentation. host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university, hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available. it runs under the unix operating system. it is modular and flexible, provides automatic documentation of its actions, and is almost entirely independent of special equipment. hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax, sun, apollo, masscomp, ncr tower, iris, ibm at, etc. for image display and input, drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage (ikonas) image processors, and the sun-2, sun-3, sun- 4, and sun-386i consoles. we also supply user-contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages (sun gfx, sun console, matrox vip-1024, iti ip-512, lexidata, macintosh ii, x windowing system, and iris). the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs-4000. it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame- stores, and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max- video. hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because 98% of hips is machine independent. hips has proven itself a highly flexible system, both as an interactive research tool, and for more production- oriented tasks. it is both easy to use, and quickly adapted and extended to new uses. hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format (either reel- to-reel or sun cartridge), and comes with source code, libraries, a library of convolu- tion masks, and on-line documentation and manual pages. michael landy sharpimage software p.o. box 373, prince street station new york, ny 10012-0007 voice: (212) 998-7857 fax: (212) 995-4011 msl@cns.nyu.edu [ please don't confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal. these are altogether different beasts! - nfotis ] mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis. mira gives workstation level performance on 386/486 dos computers using svga cards in 256 color modes up to 1024x768. mira contains a very handsome/functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated. mira reads/writes tiff and fits formats, native formats of a number of ccd cameras, and uncompressed binary images in byte, short integer, and 4-byte real pixel format in 1- or 2- dimensions. the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels, or the same as that of the input image. mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format. over 100 functions are hand-coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware. the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations. windows for 2-d image and 1-d image/data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse. there are also smooth, real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image(s), all operated by the mouse. a wide selection of grayscale, pseudocolor, and random palettes is provided, and other palettes can be generated. supported functions include such niceties as the following: o image & image: + - / * interpolation o image & constant: + - / * o unary operations: abs value, polynomial of pixel value, chs, 1/x, log, byteswap, clip values at upper/lower limits, short->real or real->short. o combine images by mean, median, mode, or sum of pixel values, with or without autoscaling to mean, median, or mode of an image section. o convolutions/filters: laplacian, sobel edge operator, directional gradient, line, gaussian, elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters, unsharp masking, median filters, user defined filter kernel. ellipse, rectangle, line, gradient, gaussian, and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle. o ccd data reduction: flat fielding, dark subtraction, column over/underscan bias removal, remove bad pixels and column defects, normalize to region target mean, median, or modal value. o create subimage, mosaic m x n 1-d or 2-d images to get larger image, collapse 2-d image into 1-d image. o plot 1-d section or collapsed section of 2-d image, plot histogram of region of an image. o review/change image information/header data, rename keywords, plot keyword values for a set of images. o luminance/photometry: elliptical or circular aperture photometry, brightness profile, isophotal photometry between set of upper & lower luminances, area and luminance inside traced polygon. interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image, fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes. o interactive with 2-d image: contrast/brightness, x- y- or diagonal plot of pixel values, distance between two points, compute region stats,` centroid, pan to x,y location or image center, zoom 1/16 to 10 times, change cursor to rectangle crosshair, full image crosshair, or off, and adjust cursor size on image. select linear, log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization. o interactive or specified image offset computation and re-sampling for o interactive with 1-d image: zoom in x- y- or both in steps of 1/2 or 2 times current, re-center plot, or enlarge a framed area. 4 plot buffers can be cycled through. interactive data analysis: polynomial fitting, point deletion, undelete, change value, point weighting, linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing, revert to unit point weights or original data buffer, substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function. dump data buffer (+ overlays and error bars) to file or printer. change to user specified coordinate system. o tricolor image combination and display, hardcopy halftone printout to hp-pcl compatible printers (laserjet, deskjet, etc.) o documentation is over 300 pages in custom vinyl binder. cost: 995 $usd/copy available from: axiom research, inc. box 44162 tucson, az 85733 (602) 791-2864 phone/fax. international marketing rep: saguaro scientific corporation, tucson, arizona. end of part 2 of the resource listing nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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 archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part3 last-modified: 1993/04/17 computer graphics resource listing : weekly posting [ part 3/3 ] last change : 17 april 1993 11. scene generators/geographical data/maps/data files dems (digital elevation models) dems (digital elevation models) as well as other cartographic data [huge] is available from spectrum.xerox.com [192.70.225.78], /pub/map. contact: lee moore -- webster research center, xerox corp. -- voice: +1 (716) 422 2496 arpa, internet: moore.wbst128@xerox.com [ check also on ncgia.ucsb.edu (128.111.254.105), /pub/dems -- nfotis ] many of these files are also available on cd-rom selled by usgs: "1:2,000,000 scale digital line graph (dlg) data". contains datas for all 50 states. price is about $28, call to or visit in offices in menlo park, in reston, virginia (800-usa-maps). the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd-rom (tso standard format) that is derived from usgs 1:100,000 map data. call (301) 763-4100 for more info or they have a bbs at (301) 763-1568. [ from dr.dobbs #198 march 1993: ] "the u.s. defense mapping agency, in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada, the u.k., and australia, have released the digital chart of the world (dcw). this chart consists of over 1.5 gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd-roms. .... includes coastlines, rivers, roads, railrays, airports,cities, towns, spot elevations, and depths, and over 100,000 place names." it is iso9660 compatible and only $200.00 available from: u.s. geological survey p.o. box 25286 denver federal center denver, co 80225 digital distribution services energy, mines, and resources canada 615 booth street ottawa, on k1a 0e9 canada director general of military survey (survey 3) elmwood avenue feltham, middlesex tw13 7ah united kingdom director of survey, australian army department of defense campbell park offices (cp2-4-24) campbell act 2601 australia fractal landscape generators public domain: many people have written fractal landscape generators. for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (paul d. bourke). many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers. check with archie. commercial: vista pro 3.0 for the amiga from virtual reality labs -- list price is about $100. their address is: 2341 ganador court san luis obispo, ca 93401 telephone or fax (805) 545-8515 scenery animator (also for the amiga) is of the same caliber with vista pro 2. check with: natural graphics p.o. box 1963 raklin, ca 95677 phone (916) 624-1436 don't forget to ask about companion programs and data disks/tapes. vista pro 3 has been ported to the pcs. cia world map ii [ note: this database is quite out of date, and not topologically structured. if you need a standard for world cartographic data, wait for the digital chart of the world. this 1:1m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency's oncs and will be available, together with searching and viewing software, on a number of cd-roms later this summer. ] check into hanauma.stanford.edu and ucsd.edu (see ftp list above) the cia database consists of coastlines, rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes. also on hanauma.stanford.edu is a 720x360 array of elevation data, containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude. a program for decoding the database, mfil, can be found on the machine pi1.arc.umn.edu (137.66.130.11). there's another program, which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure. it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance, but you can use regular polylines. ask joe stewart <joes@lpi.liant.com>. the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it. (was posted in comp.sources.unix). to be more exact, you'll have to compile just the libvplot routines, not the whole package. ncar data ncar (national center for atmospheric research) has many types of terrain data, ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions, to information about soil types, vegetation, etc. this data is not free -- they charge from $40 to $90 or more, depending on the data volume and media (exabyte tape, 3480 cartridge, 9-track tape, ibm pc floppy, and ftp transfer are all available). their data archive is mostly research oriented, not hobbyist oriented. for more information, email to ilana@ncar.ucar.edu. unc data tapes with voxel data there are 2 "public domain" tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms (mainly mri and ct scans). these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc @ chapel hill. (softlab@cs.unc.edu) the data sets (volume i and ii) are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159] in pub/softlab/chvrtd many us agencies such as nasa publish cd-roms with many altimetry data from various space missions, eg. viking for mars, magellan for venus, etc. especially for nasa, i would suggest to call the following address for more info: national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt, maryland 20771 telephone: (301) 286-6695 email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov the data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online. internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.10.4) and log in as 'nodis' (no password). you can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits, no parity, one stop). at the "enter number:" prompt, enter md and carriage return. when the system responds "call complete," enter a few more carriage returns to get the "username:" and log in as 'nodis' (no password). nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site, but no comprehensive list of what's there is available at present. earth sciences data there's a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data, including imagery. this listing is called "earth sciences resources on internet", and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn.org [128.138.213.21] in the directory cogs under the name "internet.resources.earth.sci" some sites include: aurelie.soest.hawaii.edu [128.171.151.121]: pub/avhrr/images - avhrr images ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/space/cdrom - images from magellan and viking missions etc. pub/space/index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive (the index is about 200k by itself). there's also an e-mail server for the people without internet access: send a letter to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). in the subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like: send space index send space shuttle/ss01.23.91 (capitalization is important! only text files are handled by the email server at present) vab02.larc.nasa.gov [128.155.23.47]: pub/gifs/misc/landsat - landsat photos in gif and jpeg format [ it was shut down - nfotis; anyone has a copy of this archive?? ] daily values of river discharge, streamflow, and daily weather data is available from earthinfo, 5541 central ave., boulder co 80301. these disks are expensive, around $500, but there are quantity discounts. (303) 938-1788. check vmd.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.98], the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis, weather radar, and sat view pics in gif format (updated hourly) pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217] is the space and planetary image facility (located on the university of new mexico campus) ftp server. it provides anonymous ftp access to >150 cd-roms with data/images. a disk with earthquake data, topography, gravity, geopolitical info is available from ngdc (national geophysical data center), 325 broadway, boulder, co 80303. (303) 497-6958. eosat (at least in the us) now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for $200 per scene, and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data. the mss data are 4 bands, 80 meter resolution. check out anonymous ftp to ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in unix/polyview/alpha-shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha-shapes (a generalization of the convex hull) from 3d point sets. the grips ii (gov. raster image processing software) cd-rom is available from cd-rom inc. at 1-800-821-5245 for $49. code for viewing adrg (arc digitised raster graphics) files is available on the grips ii cd-rom. the u.s. army engineer topographic labs (juan perez) code is also available via ftp ( adrg.zip archive in spectrum.xerox.com ) nrcc range data rioux m., cournoyer l. "the nrcc three-dimensional image data files", tech. report, cnrc 29077, national research council canada, ottawa, canada, 1988 [ from what i understand, these data are from a laser range finder, and you can a copy for research purposes ] 12. 3d scanners - digitized 3d data a. cyberware labs, monterey, ca, manufactures a 3d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of, or a complete, human body. they run a service bureau also, so they can digitize models for you. address: cyberware labs, inc 8 harris ct, suite 3d monterey, ca 93940 phone: (408)373-1441, fax: (408)373-3582 b. polhemus makes a 6d input device (actually a couple of models) that senses position (3d) and *orientation* (+3d) based on electromagnetic field interference. this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove. this hardware is also called isotrack, from keiser aerospace. ascension technology makes a similar 3d input device. there is a company, applied sciences(?), that makes a 3d input device (position only) based on speed of sound triangulation. c. a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint. you can ask for viewpoint's _free_ 100 page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars, anatomy, aircraft,sports, boats, trains, animals and others. though these objects are quite expensive, the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe , polygon mesh. contact: 870 west center, orem, utah 84057 ph# 801-224-2222 fax# 801-224-2272 1-800-dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers: ascension technology bird, flock of birds, big bird: 6d trackers p.o. box 527, burlington, vt 05402 phone: (802) 655-7879, fax: (802) 655-5904 polhemus incorporated digitizer: 6d trackers p.o. box 560, hercules dr. colchester, vt. 05446 tel: (802) 655-3159 logitech inc. red baron, ultrasonic 6d mouse 6506 kaiser dr. freemont, ca 94555 tel: (415) 795-8500w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker 1921 holdom ave. burnaby, b.c. canada v5b 3w4 tel: (604) 298-8574 fax: (604) 298-8580 spaceball technologies, inc. spaceball: 6d stationary input device 600 suffolk street lowell, ma, 01854 tel: (508) 970-0330 fax: (508) 970-0199 tel in mountain view: (415) 966-8123 transfinite systems gold brick: powerglove for macintosh p.o. box n mit branch post office cambridge, ma 02139-0903 tel: (617) 969-9570 email: d2002@applelink.apple.com vpl research, inc. eyephone: head-mounted display dataglove: glove/hand input device vpl research inc. 950 tower lane 14th floor foster city, ca 94404 tel: (415) 312-0200 fax: (415) 312-9356 simgraphics engineering flying mouse: 6d input device 1137 huntington rd. suite a-1 south pasadena, ca 91030-4563 (213) 255-0900 13. background imagery/textures/datafiles first, check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above. 24-bit scanning: get a good 24-bit scanner, like epson's. suggested is an scsi port for speed. eric haines had a suggestion in rt news, volume 4, #3 : scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings, etc. from doll house supplies. so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don't have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area. books with textures: find some houses/books/magazines that carry photographic material. educorp, 1-619-536-9999, sells cd-roms with various imagery - also a wide variety of stock art is available. stock art from big-name stock art houses, such as comstock, uniphoto, and metro image base, is available. in italy, there's a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work. their address is: edition belvedere co. ltd., 00196 rome italy, piazzale flaminio, 19 tel. (06) 360-44-88, fax (06) 360-29-60 texture libraries: a. mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles, a set of 256x256 24-bit textures. initial shipments in 24-bit iff (for amigas), soon in 24-bit tiff format. algorithmically built for tiled surfaces. srp is $40 / volume (each volume = 40 images @ 10 disks). demo disks for $5 are available. contact: mannikin sceptre graphics 1600 indiana ave. winter park, fl 32789 phone: (407) 384-9484 fax: (407) 647-7242 b. essence is a library of 65 (sixty-five) new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse, inc. these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine 2.0, imagine 1.1, and even turbo silver. written by steve worley. for more info contact: essence info apex software publishing 405 el camino real suite 121 menlo park ca 94025 usa [ what about texture city ?? ] 14. introduction to rendering algorithms a. ray-tracing: i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics. no? then read some of the books that the faq contains. for ray-tracing, i would suggest: an introduction to ray tracing, andrew glassner (ed.), academic press 1989, isbn 0-12-286160-4 note that i have not read the book, but i feel that you can't be wrong using his book. an errata list was posted in comp.graphics by eric haines (erich@eye.com) there's a more concise reference also: roman kuchkuda , unc @ chapel hill: "an introduction to ray tracing", in "theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad", ed. r.a.e.earnshaw, nato as, vol. f-40., pp. 1039-1060. printed by springer-verlag, 1988. it contains code for a small, but fundamentally complete ray-tracer. b. z-buffer (depth-buffer) a good reference is: _procedural elements for computer graphics_, david f. rogers, mcgraw-hill, new york, 1985, pages 265-272 and 280-284. c. others: [ more info is needed -- nfotis ] 15. where can i find the geometric data for the: a. teapot ? "displays on display" column of ieee cg&a jan '87 has the whole story about origin of the martin newell's teapot. the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot. ieee cg&a sep '87 in jim blinn's column "jim blinn's corner" describes an another way to model the teapot; bezier curves with rotations for example are used. the off and spd packages have these objects, so you're advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself. the off data is triangles at a specific resolution (around 8x8[x4 triangles] meshing per patch). the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution. b. space shuttle ? tolis lerios <tolis@nova.stanford.edu> has built a list of space shuttle datafiles. here's a summary (from his sci.space list): model1: a modified version of the newsgroup model (model2) 406 vertices (296 useful, i.e. referred to in the polygon descriptions.) 389 polygons (233 3-vertex, 146 4-vertex, 7 5-vertex, 3 6-vertex). payload doors non-existent. units: unknown. simon marshall (s.marshall@sequent.cc.hull.ac.uk) has a copy. he said there is no proprietary information associated with it. model2: the newsgroup model, in off format. you can find it in gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au , file pub/off/objects/shuttle.geo hanauma.stanford.edu , /pub/graphics/comp.graphics/objects/shuttle.data model3: the triangles' model. this model is stored in several files, each defining portions of the model. greg henderson (henders@infonode.ingr.com) has a copy. he did not mention any restriction on the model's distribution. model4: the nasa model. the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers, defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations: <x offset> <y offset> <z offset> from then on, the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions 3473 vertices. 2748 polygons (407 3-vertex, 2268 4-vertex, 33 5-vertex, 14 6-vertex, 10 7-vertex, 8 8-vertex, 8 12-vertex, 2 13-vertex, 2 15-vertex, 17 16-vertex, 2 17-vertex, 2 18-vertex, 3 19-vertex, 8 24-vertex). payload doors closed. units: inches. jon berndt (jon@l14h11.jsc.nasa.gov) seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info: unknown model5: the old shuttle model. the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions. 104 vertices. 452 polygons (11 3-vertex, 41 4-vertex). payload doors open. units: meters. we have been using this model at star labs, stanford university, for some years now. contact me (tolis@nova.stanford.edu) or my supervisor scott williams (scott@star5.stanford.edu) if you want a copy. 16. image annotation software a. touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good. it reads in rasterfiles, but even if your image isn't normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a b. idraw (part of stanford's interviews distribution) can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool. i'm not sure exactly what they are. you can ftp the idraw's binary from interviews.stanford.edu. c. tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x11 bitmap (xbm) and x11 pixmap (xpm) formats. if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm, you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm. tgif's sources are available in the pub directory on cs.ucla.edu (version 2.12 of tgif at patchlevel 7 plus patch8 and patch9) d. use the editimage facility of khoros (see below). this is just one utility in the overall system- you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw-type graphics using this package. e. you might be able to get by with pbmplus. pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image. f. 'ice' requires sun hardware running openwindows 3.it's a postscript-based graphical editor,and it's available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo.soest.hawaii.edu (128.171.151.12). requires sun c++ 2.0 and two other locally developed packages, the lxt library (an xlib-based toolkit) and a small c++ class library. all files (pub/ice.tar.z, pub/lxt.tar.z and pub/ldgoc++.tar.z) are available in compressed tar format. pub/ice.tar.z contains a readme that gives installation instructions, as well as an extensive man page (ice.1). a statically-linked compressed executable pub/ice-sun4.z for sparc systems is also available for ftp. all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission. ice means image composition environment and it's an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing. g. use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server. pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull-down menu. imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats. imagemagick is available as export.lcs.mit.edu: contrib/imagemagick.tar.z or at your nearest x11 archive. 17. scientific visualization stuff x data slice (xds) bundled with the x11 distribution from mit, in the contrib directory. available at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50] (either as a source or binaries for various platforms). national center for supercomputing applications (ncsa) tool suite platforms: unix workstations (dec, ibm, sgi, sun) apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability: now available. source code in the public domain. ftp from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. contact: national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building 605 e. springfield ave. champaign, il 61820 cost: free (zero dollars). the suite includes tools for 2d image and 3d scene analysis and visualization. the code is actively maintained and updated. they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools. examples are: spyglass dicer (3d volumetric data analysis package) platform: mac spyglass transform (2d data analysis package) platforms: mac, sgi, sun, dec, hp, ibm contact: spyglass, inc. p.o. box 6388 champaign, il 61826 (217) 355-6000 khoros 1.0 patch 5 available via anonymous ftp at pprg.eece.unm.edu (129.24.24.10). cd to /pub/khoros to see what is available. it is huge (> 100 mb), but good. needs unix and x11r4. freely copied (not pd), complete with sources and docs. very extensive and at its heart is visual programming. khoros components include a visual programming language, code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system, an interactive user interface editor, an interactive image display package, an extensive library of image and signal processing routines, and 2d/3d plotting packages. see comp.soft-sys.khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info.... contact: the khoros group room 110 eece dept. university of new mexico albuquerque, nm 87131 email: khoros-request@chama.eece.unm.edu analysis & visualization application for the macintosh. operates on 1d and 2d data arrays. import/export several different file formats. several different plotting options such as gray scale, color raster, 3d wire frame, 3d surface, contour, vector, line, and combinations. ffts, filtering, and other math functions, color look up editor, array calculator, etc. shareware, available via anonymous ftp from sumex-aim.stanford.edu in the info-mac/app directory. for other information contact doug norton (e-mail: 74017.461@@compuserve.com) iris explorer it's an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists, engineers and other scientists. the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any, or a minimal amount of, traditonal code. also, existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment. explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines, but will become available on other platforms in time. [ bundled with every new sgi machine, as far as i know] see comp.graphics.explorer or comp.sys.sgi for discussion of the package. there are also two ftp servers for related stuff, modules etc.: ftp.epcc.ed.ac.uk [129.215.56.29] swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] - mirror of the uk site back in the 'old good days', you could get ape for nearly free. now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it: taravisual corporation 929 harrison avenue columbus, ohio 43215 tel: 1-800-458-8731 and (614) 291-2912 fax: (614) 291-2867 cost: $895 (plus tax); runtime version with a site-license for a single user (at a time), no limit on the number of machines in a cluster. $895 includes support/maintenance and upgrades. source code more. additional user licenses $360. the name of the package has become ape iii (tm). khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy, as are avs and explorer. see also: comp.graphics.avs platforms: convex, cray, dec, evans & sutherland, hp, ibm, kubota, set technologies, sgi, stardent, sun, wavetracer availability: avs4 available on all the above: for all unix workstations. contact: advanced visual systems inc. 300 fifth ave. waltham, ma 02154 (617)-890-4300 telephone (617)-890-8287 fax avs@avs.com email advanced visual systems inc. for: cray, hp, ibm, sgi, stardent, sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc. or cray for cray dec for dec evans & sutherland for evans & sutherland advanced visual systems inc. or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc. for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site: for modules, data sets, other info: avs.ncsc.org (128.109.178.23) in a nutshell it's a package of the same genre as avs,explorer,etc. it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system (imho) major elements are: - a visual programming language, which automatically exploits the inherent - a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point, filter, io, transform, morphological, segmentation, and measurement operations. a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast, merge, synchronization, conditional, and sequencing control strategies. wit delivers an object-oriented, distributed, visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems. users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad-like workspace by adding their own operators (c functions), objects (data structures), and servers (specialized hardware). wit runs on sun, hp9000/7xx, sgi and supports datacube mv-20/200 hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real-time. for a free wit demo disk, call, fax, or e-mail (poon@ee.ubc.ca) us stating your complete name, address, voice, fax, e-mail info. and desired platform. pricing: wit for sparc, one yr. free upgrades, 30 days technical support....................$5000 us academic institutions: discounts available contact: logical vision ltd. suite 108-3700 gilmore way burnaby, b.c., canada v5g 4m1 tel: 604-435-2587 fax: 604-435-8840 terry arden <poon@ee.ubc.ca> vis-5d a system for visually exploring the output of 5-d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models. platforms: sgi iris with vgx, gtx, tg, or g graphics, sgi crimson or indigo (r4000, elan graphics suggested), irix 4.0.x ibm rs/6000 with gl graphics, aix version 3 or later; stardent gs-1000 and gs-2000 (with truecolor display) in any case, 32 (or more) mb of ram are suggested. you can get it freely (thanks to nasa support) via anonymous ftp: ftp iris.ssec.wisc.edu (or ftp 144.92.108.63), then ftp> cd pub/vis5d ftp> ascii ftp> get readme ftp> bye note: you can find the package also on wuarchive.wustl.edu in the graphics/graphics/packages directory. read section 2 of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis-5d. contact: bill hibbard (whibbard@vms.macc.wisc.edu) brian paul (bpaul@vms.macc.wisc.edu) dataexplorer (ibm) platforms : ibm risc system 6000, ibm power visualization server (simd mesh 32 i860s, 40 mhz) working on (announced) : sgi, hp, sun contact: your local ibm rep. for a trial package ask your rep to contact : david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh(kilcore), (708) 981-4510 data visualizer, personal visualizer, advanced visualizer. platforms: sgi, sun, ibm rs6000, hp, dec availability: available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies. educational programs and site licenses are contacts: mike wilson (mike@wti.com) wavefront technologies, inc. 530 east montecito street santa barbara, ca 93103 805-962-8117 fax: 805-963-0410 wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat 21-23 b-9000 gent, belgium 32-91-25-45-55 fax: 32-91-23-44-56 wavefront technologies japan 17f shinjuku-sumitomo bldg 2-6-1 nishi-shinjuku, shunjuku-ku tokyo 168 japan 81-3-3342-7330 fax 81-3-3342-7353 plot3d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least (for fast ask pat elson <pelson@nas.nasa.gov> for distribution information). in general, these codes are for us citizens only :-( on the contrib tape of x11r5. its specialty is display of up to 64 data sets (2d). national center for atmospheric research. one of the original graphics packages. runs on sun, rs6000, sgi, vax, cray y-mp, decstations, and more. contact: graphics information ncar scientific computing division p.o. box 3000 boulder, co 80307-3000 (303)-497-1201 scdinfo@ncar.ucar.edu cost: .edu $750 unlimited users .gov $750 1 user $1500 5 users $3000 25 users .com users multiply .gov * 2.0 an environment for scientific computing and visualization. based on an array oriented language, idl includes 2d and 3d graphics, matrix manupulation, signal and image processing, basic statistics, gridding, mapping, and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications (open look, motif, or ms-windows). environments: dec (vms and ultrix), hp, ibm rs6000, sgi, sun, microsoft windows. (mac version in progress) cost: $1500 to $3750, educational and quantity discounts see also: comp.lang.idl-pvwave (the idl-pvwave bundle) contact: research systems inc. 777 29th street, suite 302 boulder, co 80303 phone: 303-786-9900 fax: 303-786-9909 e-mail: info@rsinc.com demo available via ftp. call or e-mail for details. idl/sips "a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips. this was developed at the university of colorado (boulder) by some people working for alex goetz. you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it. it's a few thousand dollars (american) i expect for idl and the other should be free. those are the general purpose packages i've heard of, besides what terramar has. sips _was_ written for aviris imagery. i'm not sure how general purpose it is. you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask. i have another piece of software (pcw) that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification (you can compute an image using selected components). i've used it on 70 megabyte aviris images without problems, but for the best speed you need an external dsp card. it will work without it, but large images take quite a while (50-70 times as long) to process. that's a freebie if you want it" "my favorite is idl (interactive data language) from research systems, inc. idl is in my opinion, much better and infinitely easier. its programming language is very strong and easy -- very pascal-like. it handles the number-crunching very well, also. personally, i like doing the number-crunching with idl on the vax (or mathematica, igor, or even excel on the mac if it's not too hairy), then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part. i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn't handle, and the speed and ease of use (compared to iraf) was incredible. by the way, it's mostly astronomical image processing which i've been doing. this means image enhancement, cleaning up bad lines/pixels, and some other traditional image processing routines. then, for example, taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse, then doing a curve fit to that line (which i might do like in kaleidagraph.) " [ for idl call research systems , for pv-wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado @ boulder . from what i can understand, you can get packaged programs from research systems, though -- nfotis ] contact robert haimes, mit an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets. platforms: sgi, ibm, hp, sun, x-terminals availability: currently available on all of the above platforms. educational programs and volume discounts are available. contact: intelligent light p.o. box 65 fair lawn, nj 07410 (201)794-7550 steve kramer (kramer@ilight.com) scian is primarily intended to do 3-d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame-accurate video recording devices. a user manual, on-line help, and technical notes will help you use the program. cost : 0 (free), source code provided via ftp. platforms : sgi 4d machines and ibm rs/6000 with the gl card + z-buffer where to find it: ftp.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.34] : /pub/scian a mirror is monu1.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.101] : /pub/scian [ from the readme : ] scry is a distributed image handling system that pro- vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks, image viewing on workstations, recording on video equipment, and storage on disk. the system can be distri- buted among workstations, between supercomputers and works- tations, and between supercomputers, workstations and video animation controllers. the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data, complex 3d data sets, and image processing operations. both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix-like c run-time environments, and 4bsd sockets. the source is available for anonymous ftp: csam.lbl.gov [128.3.254.6] : pub/scry.tar.z contact: bill johnston, (wejohnston@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!johnston) david robertson (dwrobertson@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!davidr) imaging technologies group ms 50b/2239 lawrence berkeley laboratory 1 cyclotron road berkeley, ca 94720 svlib / fvs svlib is an x-windows widget set based on the osf (open software foundation) motif widget set. svlib widgets are macro-widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons, scrollbars, menus, and drawing areas. it is designed to address the reusability of 2d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation, image display, and contour plotting. it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf/motif. currently, only color monitors are supported. since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf/motif user interface widget set, it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets. programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets. fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics (cfd) simulations. fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically. fvs accepts three-dimensional multi-block data recorded in ncsa hdf format. iti.gov.sg [192.122.132.130] : /pub/svlib (scientific visualization) /pu/fvs; these directories contain demo binaries for sun4/sgi cost : us$200 for academic and us$300 for non-academic institutions. (for each of the above items). you're getting the source for the licence. miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building 71, sicence park drive singapore 0511 republic of singapore tel : (65)7720435 fax : (65)7795966 email : leehian@iti.gov.sg gvlware distribution: bob - an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz - a disk based movie player for the sgi icol - motif color editor the army high performance computing research center (ahpcrc) has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent 2d and 3d data sets. in the graphics and visualization lab (gvl) we are using these tools along side standard packages, such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit, to render 3d volumes and create digital movies. a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called "gvlware". gvlware, currently consisting of bob, raz and icol, is now available via ftp. the most interesting program is probably bob, an interactive volume renderer for the sgi. raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen, enabling movies larger than memory to be played. icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz. source and pre-built binaries for irix 4.0.5 are included. to acquire gvlware, anonymous ftp to: machine - ftp.arc.umn.edu file - /pub/gvl.tar.z to use gvlware: mkdir gvl ; cd gvl zcat gvl.tar.z | tar xvf - more readme some bob features: motif interface, sgi gl rendering renders 64 cubed data set in 0.1 to 1.0 seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering, in perspective (only maximum value rendering on personal iris) data must be a "brick of bytes", on a regularly spaced grid animation, subvolumes, subsampling, stereo some raz features: motif interface, sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition, then streams to screen (requires an empty disk partition to be set aside) script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory, like ncsa ximage some icol features: motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb, hsv and yuv color spaces, multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi, sun, dec and cray systems btw: bob == brick of bytes icol == interpolated color raz == ? (just a name) please send any comments to gvlware@ahpcrc.umn.edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo3-89-c-0038 with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center. imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization. it does volume rendering, binary surface rendering, multiplanar reformating, image manipulation, cine sequencing, intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities. it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers, image database functionality and interconnection to most medical (ct/mri/etc) scanners. it is client/server based and provides an object oriented interface. it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available. it is robust, efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications. cost: $20k for oem developer, $10k for educational developer and run times starting at $8900 and going down based on quantity. the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto. available from: isg technologies 6509 airport road mississauga, ontario, canada, l4v-1s7 (416) 672-2100 e-mail: rod gilchrist <rod@isgtec.com> 18. molecular visualization stuff [ based on a list from cristy@dupont.com < cristy > , which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics, md for short ] it is a public domain package written by michael pique, at the scripps research institute, la jolla, ca. flex is stored as a compressed, tar'ed archive (about 3.4mb) at perutz.scripps.edu [137.131.152.27], in pub/flex. it displays molecular models and md trajectories. (for macintosh). i searched with archie, and the most promising place is sumex-aim.stanford.edu (info-mac/app, and info-mac/art/qt for a demo) md-display runs on sgi machines. call terry lybrand (lybrand@milton.u.washington.edu). it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more. it uses the xview toolkit. call duncan mcree <dem@scripps.edu> landman@hal.physics.wayne.edu: i am writing my own visualization code right now. i look at md output (a specific format, easy to alter for the subroutine) on pc's. my program has hooks into gks. if your friend has access to phigs for x (pex) and fortran bindings, i would be happy to share my evolving code (free of charge). right now it can display supercells of up to 65 atoms (easy to change), and up to 100 time steps, drawing nearest neighbor bonds between 2 defining nn radii. it works acceptably fast on a 10mhz 286. icsg0001@caesar.cs.montana.edu: i did a project on molecular visualization for my master's thesis, using unix/x11/motif which generates a simple point and space-filling model. kgngraf is part of motecc-91. look on malena.crs4.it (156.148.7.12), in pub/motecc. motecc.info.txt information about motecc-91 in plain ascii format. motecc.info.troff information about motecc-91 in troff format. motecc.form.troff motecc-91 order form in troff format. motecc.license.troff motecc-91 license agreement in troff format. motecc.info.ps information about motecc-91 in postscript format. motecc.form.ps motecc-91 order form in postscript format. motecc.license.ps motecc-91 license agreement in postscript format. ditolla@itnsg1.cineca.it: i'm working on molecular dynamic too. a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics. we are working to improve it, but it doesn't work under x, we are using the graphi. lib. of the silicon gr. because they are much faster then x. when we'll end it we'll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp. (will be free software). xball v2.0 written by david nedde. call daven@maxine.wpi.edu. an x window system program that uses osf/motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data. data from several common file formats can be read and written; current formats include: alchemy, chemlab-ii, gaussian, molsim, mopac, pdb, and msci's xyz format (which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats). xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats. xmol is available at ftp.msc.edu. read pub/xmol/readme for further details. insight ii from biosym technologies inc. the program has been published in j. molecular graphics 10 (1992) 33. the program can analyze and display charmm, discover, yasp and mumod trajectories. the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces, proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program. it works on silicon graphics machines. contact leif laaksonen <leif.laaksonen@csc.fi or laaksone@csc.fi> ns.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.8] : /pub - multi 3.0 (multi-process molecular modeling suite) +mindtool + it runs under sunview, and requires a fortran compiler and sun's cgi + libraries. mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic + manipulation of molecules and atoms. currently, up to 10,000 + atoms may be input. + available via anonymous ftp, at rani.chem.yale.edu, directory + /pub/mindtool ( check with archie for other sites if that's too far ) [ i would also suggest looking at least in sgi's applications directory. it contains many more packages - nfotis ] 19. gis (geographical information systems software) (geographic resource analysis support system) of the us army construction engineering research lab (cerl). it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package. many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package, although it is reported to have significant image processing feature descriptions i use grass because it's public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free. grass runs in unix and is written in c. the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration. you then compile the source code for your machine, using scripts provided with grass. i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget. grass is not very user-friendly, compared to macintosh software." a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines (fft). kelly maurice at vexcel corp. in boulder, co is a primary user of grass . this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi-spectral (238 bands ??) volumetric rendering, full color, on suns and stardents. it was a really effective interface. vexcel corp. currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps. you can call them at (303) 444-0094 or email care of greg@vexcel.com 192.92.90.68 host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a/ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data. grass is public-domain, and can run on a high-end pc under unix. it is raster-based, has some image-processing capability, and can display vector data (but analysis must be done in the raster environment). i have used grass v.3 on a sun workstation and found it easy to use. it is best, of course, for data that are well represented in raster (grid-cell) form. cerl's office of grass integration (ogi) maintains an ftp server: moon.cecer.army.mil (129.229.20.254). mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass-ftp-admin@moon.cecer.army.mil. this location will be the new "canonical" source for grass software, as well as bug fixes, contributed sources, documentation, and other files. this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and "tar" archiving of files. a feature attraction of the server is john parks' grass tutorial. because the manual is still in beta-test stage, john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments/corrections. the ogi is not currently maintaining this document, so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx@tang.uark.edu listserv mailing lists: grassu-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for grass users; application-level questions, support concerns, miscellaneous questions, etc) send subscribe commands to grassu-request@amber.cecer.army.mil. grassp-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for grass programmers; system-level questions and tips, tricks, and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications) send subscribe commands to grassp-request@amber.cecer.army.mil. both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration (subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign, il). the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community; while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists, we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list. if you have questions, problems, or comments, send e-mail to lists-owner@amber.cecer.army.mil and a human will respond. microstation imager intergraph (based in huntsville alabama) sells a wide range of gis software/hardware. microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of. imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis/remote sensing flavor. feature description basic geometry manipulations: flip, mirror, rotate, generalized affine. rectification: affine, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th order models as well as a projective model (warp an image to a vector map or to another image). rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion. principal component analysis. classification: k-means and isodata. fourier xforms: forward, filtering and reverse. filters: high pass, low pass, edge enhancing, median, generic. complex histogram/contrast control. layer controller: manages up to 64 images at a time -- user can extract single bands from a 3 band image or create color images by combining various individual bands, etc. the package is designed for a remote sensing application (it can handle very large images) and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications. host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations (a unix machine similar to a sun) though there were rumors (there are always rumors) that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment. a company called pci, inc., out of richmond hill, ontario, canada, makes an array of software utilities for processing, manipulation, and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different "industry standard" formats: lgsowg, bsq, landsat, and a couple of others whose titles i forget. the software is available in versions for ms-dos, unix workstations (among them hp, sun, and ibm), and vms, and quite possibly other platforms by now. i use the vms version. the "pci software" consists of several classes/groups/packages of utilities, grouped by function but all operating on a common "pci database" disk file. the "tape i/o" package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote-sensing industry tape formats into, or write those formats out from, the "pci database" file; this is the only package i use or know much about. other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci-supported third-party color displays, output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer, e.g. an epson-type dot-matrix graphics printer. you might be more spe- cifically interested in the mathematical operations package: histo- gram and fourier analysis, equalization, user-specified operations (e.g. "multiply channel 1 by 3, add channel 2, and store as channel 5"), and god only knows what all else -- there's a lot. i don't have and don't use these, so can't say much about them; you only buy the packages your particular application/interest calls for. each utility is controlled by from one to eight "parameters," read from a common "parameter file" which must be (in vms anyway) in your "default directory." some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose, so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations. the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm-pc basic, but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common, complicated, lengthy or difficult series of utility executions. (in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure.) there's also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with (read from/write to) the pci data structures (database file, parameter file). the pci software is designed specifically for remote-sensing images, but requires such a level of operator expertise that, once you reach the level where you can handle r-s images, you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well. for instance, the tape i/o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi-band (what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls "raw") data from tape, in a number of different "interleave" orders. this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic-arts industry's "ct2t" format, would probably (i haven't tried) handle targa, and so on. above all, however, you have to know what you're doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over. it's worth noting that the pci "database" file is designed to contain not only "raster" (image) data, but vectors (for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table), land-use, and all manner of other information (i observe that a remote-sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands, latitude, longitude, time, date, etc. of the original satellite pass; all of this can go into the pci "database"). i _believe_ that on workstations the built-in display is used. on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third-party display systems (the name gould/deanza seems to come to mind). one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci "database" file to a peritek vct-q (q-bus 24-bit directcolor) display subsystem. pci software could be "overkill" in your case; it seems designed for the very "high end" applications/users, i.e. those for whom a mac/pc largely doesn't suffice (although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time). it's probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada, a country which does a lot of its land/resource management via remote sensing; i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these spam (spectral analysis manager) back in 1985 jpl developed something called spam (spectral analysis manager) which got a fair amount of use at the time. that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery (byte data, <= 256 pixels across by <= 512 lines by <= 256 bands); a modified version has since been developed for aviris (airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer) which uses much larger images. spam does none of these things (rectification, classification, pc and ihs transformations, filtering, contrast enhancement, overlays). actually, it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement (stretching). spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering. the original spam uses x or sunview to display. the aviris version may require vicar, an executive based on tae, and may also require a frame buffer. i can refer you to people if you're interested. pcw requires x for display. map ii among the mac gis systems, map ii is distributed by john wiley. clrview is a 3-dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real-time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers. this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources. it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf, tin, dem, lattices, and arc/info coverages among others. clrview can be obtained from explorer.dgp.utoronto.ca (128.100.1.129) in the directory pub/sgi/clrview. contact: rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel: (416) 978-7197 email: rodney@dgp.utoronto.ca end of resource listing nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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 hi! everyone, since some people quickly solved the problem of determining a sphere from 4 points, i suddenly recalled a problem which is how to find the ellipse from its offset. for example, given 5 points on the offset, can you find the original ellipse analytically? i spent two months solving this problem by using analytical method last year, but i failed. under the pressure, i had to use other method - nonlinear programming technique to deal with this problem approximately. any ideas will be greatly appreciated. please post here, let the others share our interests. 
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 to everyone who wants fonts in vivid/pov/polyray. the borland bgi font converter is vvfont18.zip. this program can be found on ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de directory pub/dkbtrace/utils. also wuarchive has mirrored this site (directory graphics/graphics/mirrors/ ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/pub/dkbtrace/utils. there are more nice utilities present in this directory. a new version of polyray 1.6 (for those asked for it) can be found on the same sites but in the directory incoming instead of utils (ply16386). also in this directory povshell and pv3dv060 could be found. have a nive raytrace time. *| ____/| *|* peter.vanderveen@visser.el.wau.nl |* *| \ o.o| *|* department of genetics |* *| =(_)= *|* agricultural university |* *| u *|* wageningen, the netherlands |* 
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 well i have opened up a ftp site for getting the latest software drivers for genoa graphics cards. here is how to access it: ftp 192.109.42.11 login:ftp password:ftp cd pub/genoa ls -l (now if you wanna have the latest drivers for the 7900 board) cd 7000series mget * this is the sequence to get the drivers. if you have any further question, please email me. best regards, stefan hartmann email to: harti@mikro.ee.tu-berlin.de 
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 this may be a fairly routine request on here, but i'm looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a 3d game. i have one that works right now, but its very slow. could anyone point me to one, pref in asm that is fairly well documented and flexible? //lucas. 
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 |> in article <1993apr15.144843.19549@rchland.ibm.com> ricardo hernandez |> > and cd-i's cpu doesn't help much either. i understand it is |> >a 68070 (supposedly a variation of a 68000/68010) running at something |> >like 7mhz. with this speed, you *truly* need sprites. [snip] (the 3do is not a 68000!!!) |> ricardo, the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an |> earlier post is plain old quicktime 1.5 with the compact video codec. |> i've seen digitized video (some of apple's early commercials, to be |> precise) running on a centris 650 at about 30fps very nicely (16-bit |> color depth). i would expect that using the same algorithm, a risc |> processor should be able to approach full-screen full-motion animation, |> though as you've implied, the processor will be taxed more with highly |> dynamic material. [snip] booth there. i walked by, and they were showing real-time video capture using a (radious or supermac?) card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies. i think the quicktime they were using was the old one (1.5). they digitized a guy talking there in 160x2xx something. it played back quite nicely and in real time. the guy then expanded the window (resized) to 25x by 3xx (320 in y i think) and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn't 30fps (or about 30fps) anymore. it dropped to like 15 fps. then he increased it just a bit more, and it dropped to 10<->12 fps. then i asked him what mac he was using... he was using a quadra (don't know what model, 900?) to do it, and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii. well, i spoiled his claim so to say, since a 68040 quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble. and this wasn't even from the hardisk! this was from memory! could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime, or some hardware assisted centris, or another software product running the animation (like supposedly macromind's accelerator?)? don't misunderstand me, i just want to clarify this. the 3do box is based on an arm risc processor, one or two custom graphics chips, a dsp, a double-speed cdrom, and 2mb of ram/vram. (i'm a little fuzzy on the breakdown of the graphics chips and ram/vram capacity). it was demonstrated at a recent gathering at the electronic cafe in santa monica, ca. from 3do, rj mical (of amiga/lynx fame) and hal josephson (sp?) were there to talk about the machine and their plan. we got to see the unit displaying full-screen movies using the compactvideo codec (which was nice, very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft) ... and a very high frame rate to boot (like 30fps). note however that the 3do's screen resolution is 320x240. compactvideo is pretty amazing... i also wanted to point out that quicktime does indeed slow down when one dynamically resizes material as was stated above... i'm sure if the material had been compressed at the large size then it would play back fine (i have a q950 and do this quite a bit). the price of generality... personally i don't use the dynamic sizing of movies often, if ever. but playing back stuff at its original size is plenty quick on the latest 040 machines. i'm not sure how a centris/20mhz 040 stacks up against the 25 mhz arm in the 3do box. obviously the arm is faster, but how much? rob barris quicksilver software inc. rbarris@orion.oac.uci.edu 
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 this may be a fairly routine request on here, but i'm looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a 3d game. a fast polygon routine to do what? to draw polygons of course. its a vga mode 13h (320x200) game, done in c and asm. i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now, which is very slow. //lucas. 
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 sorry, bryan, this is not quite correct. remember the vgalib package that comes with linux/sls? it will switch to vga 320x200x256 mode *without* xwindows. so at least it is *possible* to write a gif viewer under linux. however i don't think that there exists a similar svga package, and viewing gifs in 320x200 is not very nice. no, vgalib? amazing.. i guess it was lost in all those subdirs :-) thanks for correcting me. it doesn't sound very appealing though, only 320x200? i'm glad it wasn't something major i missed. tommy frandsen's vgalib (which is probably what you're talking about) will do the standard vga modes, some tweaked modes and then the tseng et4000 super vga modes. i have an et4000 and i'm viewing gif's at 640x480/256 (i have a lousy/small monitor) with dpg-view on linux. i think i had to change some constants in the dpg-view sources to make it use the et4k modes. vgalib's sources seem to be designed for easy addition of new super vga support; each mode is an array of register values and there's a program that dumps an array declaration of this kind describing the current mode. haven't tried it though... (btw, my version of vgalib is 1.2.) kennu@mits.mdata.fi try linux, a free unix by linus torvalds for 386+'s. read comp.os.linux (or ask me by email if you like) for more information. you can run x11, tex, gnu emacs and much more on top of a nice posix environment. 
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 i'm using "rayshade" on the u.w. computers here, and i'd like input from other users, and perhaps swap some ideas. i could post uuencoded .gifs here, or .ray code, if anyone's interested. i'm having trouble coming up with colors that are metallic (i.e. brass, steel) from the rgb values. if you're on the u.w. machines, check out "~fineman/rle.files/*.rle" on stein.u.washington.edu for some of what i've got. 
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 australian pattern recognition society 2nd call for papers dicta-93 2nd conference on - digital imaging computing: techniques and applications location: macquarie theatre macquarie university dicta-93 is the second biennial national conference of the australian pattern recognition society. this event will provide an opportunity for any persons with an interest in computer vision, digital image processing/analysis and other aspects of pattern recognition to become informed about contemporary developments in the area, to exchange ideas, to establish contacts and to share details of their own work with others. the following invited speakers will provide specialised presentations: prof gabor t. herman, university of pennsylvania on medical imaging. prof. r.m. hodgson, massey university new zealand on computer vision. prof. dominique juelin, centre de morphologie mathematique, paris on mathematical morphology. prof. john richards, aust. defence force academy, canberra on remote dr. phillip k. robertson, csiro division of information technology, canberra on interactive visualisation. the conference will concentrate on (but is not limited to) the following areas of image processing:- * computer vision and object recognition * motion analysis * morphology * medical imaging * fuzzy logic and neural networks * image coding * machine vision and robotics * enhancement and restoration * enhancement and restoration * visualisation * industrial applications * software and hardware tools papers are sought for presentation at the conference and publication in the conference proceedings. submission for peer review should consist of an extended abstract of 750-1000 words of doubled spaced text, summarizing the technical aspects of the paper and any results that will be quoted. final papers should be limited to no more than 8 pages of text and illustrations in camera-ready form. four (4) copies of the abstract should be sent to: dicta-93 c/- tony adriaansen csiro - division of wool technology po box 7 ryde nsw 2112 important dates abstract due - 25th june 1993 acceptance notified - 27th august 1993 final paper due - 15th october 1993 social program: the conference dinner will be held on the thursday 9th of december 1993. other social activities are being arranged. situated on a beautiful harbour, sydney has many and varied places of interest. the opera house and harbour bridge are just two of the well known landmarks. harbour cruises, city tours to the blue mountains run daily. we can provide further information on request. accommodation: accommodation within 15 min walking distance is available, ranging from college style to 5 star hotel facilities. information will be supplied upon request. conference fees: before 30th sep. after 30th sep. aprs members a$220 a$250 aprs student members a$120 a$150 others a$250 a$280 conference dinner a$35 on dec 9th 1993 advanced registration name: organisation: phone: fax: email: - i am a current member of aprs. - i am not a current member of aprs. - please send me information on accommodation. i enclose a cheque for please send the above form to dicta-93 c/- tony adriaansen csiro - division of wool technology po box 7 ryde nsw 2112 the cheques should be made payable to dicta-93. for further information contact: * tony adriaansen (02) 809 9495 * athula ginigie (02) 330 2393 * email: dicta93@ee.uts.edu.au aprs is a member of iapp the international association for pattern recognition, inc. an affiliated member of the international federation for information processing. 
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 i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version. i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had. pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews. in the april 13th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro (eisa version) as their "editor's choice". they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january... ...cuyler 
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 well, the temp file thing creates an obvious problem: it is impossible to use cview for viewing cd-rom based picture collections. and it is the only non- windows viewer that works properly with my cirrus-based 24 bit vga. 
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 looking for a graphics/cad/or-whatever package on a x-unix box that will take a file with records like: n a b p where n = a count - integer a = entity a - string b = entity b - string p = type - string and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by n. there would be a different line type for each type of vertice. the boxes need to be identified with the entity's name. the number of entities < 1000 and vertices < 100000. it would be nice if the tool minimized line cross-overs and did a good job of layout. ;-) i have looked in the faq for comp.graphics and gnuplot without success. any ideas would be appreciated? glen fullmer, glen_fullmer@pts.mot.com, (407)364-3296 * "for a successful technology, reality must take precedence * * over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - richard p. feynman * 
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 can somebody point out to me where i can find the specs for .gl and .fli files found on pc's? arthur@qedbbs.com (arthur choung) or qed!arthur the qed bbs -- (310)420-9327 
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 check out image pals v1.2 from u-lead (until may, special $99 intro price, 310-523-9393). it has the basic image processing tools for all major formats, does screen grabbing, and allows all your image files to be calalogged into a thumbnail database. it's great! 
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 yesterday i wrote a program to do bilinear interpolation ala numerical recipes, with the pbmplus libraries. i'm pretty happy with the results, but i'm looking for any already-coded non-linear interpolation schemes before i go ahead an try to write one. any pointers? ) dave disser um-caen user services wealth is wasted ) disser@engin.umich.edu 229 chrysler center on the old. ) (313) 763-3067 ann arbor, mi 48109-2092 
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 i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version. i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had. pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews. in the april 13th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro (eisa version) as their "editor's choice". they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january... ...cuyler yeah - they also gave it their "editor's choice" in the run-down of graphics accelerators they tested in the previous issue, which is why i bought (and then returned) mine. the only conclusion i can come up with is that pc magazine has wildly different ways on determining the worthiness of a video card than i do. david farley the university of chicago library 312 702-3426 1100 east 57th street, jrl-210 dgf1@midway.uchicago.edu chicago, illinois 60637 
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 i am involve in a distant learning project and am in need of jpeg and mpeg encode/decode source and object code. this is a not-for profit project that once completed i hope to release to other educational and institutional learning centers. this project requires that true photographic images be sent over plain telephone lines. in addition if there is a real good gui lib with 3d objects and all types of menu classes that can be use at both end of the transaction (server and terminal end) i would like to hear about it. we recently posted an rfd announcing the otg (open telematic group) that will concern itself with the developement of such application and that it would incorporate naplps, jpeg, mpeg, voice, ivr, fax sprites, animation(fli, flc, etc...). at present only dos and unix environment is being worked on and it our hope that we can generate enough interest where all the major platform can be accomodated via a plaform independent api/toolkit/sdk we are of the mind that it is about time that such project and group be form to deal with these issues. we want to setup a repository where these files may be access such as simte20 and start putting together a otg faq. if you have some or any information that in your opinion would be of interest to the otg community and you like to see included in our first faq please send it email to the address below. thanks in advance p.o. box 95901 atlanta ga. 30347-0901 (404)985-1198 zyxel 14.4 epimntl@world.std.com ed.pimentel@gisatl.fidonet.org edimg@willard.atl.ga.us (ed pimentel) gatech!kd4nc!vdbsan!willard!edimg emory!uumind!willard!edimg willard's house bbs, atlanta, ga -- +1 (404) 664 8814 
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 i'm making a customized paint program in dos and need an algorithm for reading bitmap files like gif, pcx, or bmp. does anyone have such an algorithm? i've tried copying one out of a book for reading .pcx format but it doesn't work. i will take an algorithm for any format that can be created from windows paint. thanks! 
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 in the uibm pc world, how much of a "standard" has vesa become for svga graphics? i know there are lots of graphics-board companies out there, as well as several graphics chips manufacturers- are they adhering to the vesa standard, and what effect is/will the vesa local bus have on all of this? 
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 could anyone direct me to the ftp site where i can find the dos-based morphing package called dmorf12.zip? i had downloaded this file last week, but the new dos 6 crashed my hard drive and i lost it. now i can't find the site where i got it from....... also, are there any other morphing packages out for dos (freeware or shareware) thanks in advance, | \\ // _______ _______ egerter@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca | | \\ /\ // || ___ | author of wgt graphics | | \\//\\// || \\ | toolkit for 320*200*256 vga | | \/ \/ . \\____// . | . version 3.5 now available | | (turbo/borland c++ 1.0 or better)| |joystick mouse graphics primitives non-bgi power gif/pcx data storage | |sprites multiway scrolling games bitmap warping/resizing sb support fli| \___________________________________________________________________________/ | \\ // _______ _______ egerter@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca | 
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 i plan to post a summary of responses to this as soon as i have working code, which i will also include. the intersection of 3 planes method looks best, but my implementation based on a short article in graphics gems i doesn't work. i may be misinterpreting, of course. i had avoided the simultaneous solution of the plane equations in favor of dot and cross products, but the former may actually be better. in either case a matrix determinant needs to be computed (implicitly in the solution of linear equations). to get the planes, i was taking the midpoint of the line from, say, p1 to p2, and setting the normal as the "normalized" vector from p1 to p2. these just plugged into the formula in graphics gems. however, the resulting center point is only occasionally equidistant from all 4 of my test points (for different tests). my matrix/vector math is very rusty, but it looks like i need to verify the formula, or use the simultaneous equation solution, which will require bringing in another routine i don't have (but should be easy to find). another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by 2 sets of 3 points, and intersecting the normals from there. this would also define the circle center. however, small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect. supposedly 3 planes have to intersect in a unique point if they are not parallel. thanks to all who answered so far. ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research (206)543-4535 bolson@u.washington.edu (preferred) bolson@max.bitnet bolson@milton.u.washington.edu (if you must) 
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 i've borrowed the 1992-93 version of this book from a friend...holy moley! what a wealth of contacts. five-hundred pages of information about electronic artists and organizations around the globe (many have email addresses). an up to the minute database of this information is also available on minitel (the book's based in france...are there any internet=>minitel gates?). the book is printed in french and english. to have you or your organization listed in idea, just send your information to: annick bureaud 57, rue falguiere 75015 paris it's free to be listed in it, i'm not sure how widely distributed the book is or how much it costs. i'm not affiliated with them in any way, i was just impressed by their collection of organizations and artists. i highly encourage all involved in electronic media (video, music, graphics, animation, etc.) to send in your entry and encourage them to make their database available on internet. ...e ed stastny | otis project, end process, sound news and arts po bx 241113 | ftp: sunsite.unc.edu (/pub/multimedia/pictures/otis) omaha, ne 68124-1113 | 141.214.4.135 (projects/otis) ---------------------- email: ed@cwis.unomaha.edu, ed@sunsite.unc.edu 
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 : a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview. : since he isn't in the position to post this himself, he asked me to post : it for him, but to leave his name out. so here it comes: : cview has quite a number of bugs. the one you mention is perhaps the most a stupid question, but what will cview run on and where can i get it? i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux. (without x-windows.) thanks! 
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 a stupid question, but what will cview run on and where can i get it? i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux. (without x-windows.) thanks! ho boy. there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows! i love linux because it is so easy to learn.. you want text? okay. use linux. you want text and graphics? use linux with x windows. simple. painless. required to have x windows if you want graphics! this includes fancy word processors like doc, image viewers like xv, etc. 
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 [most info regarding dangers of reading from floppy disks omitted] unrevcoverable way. so be careful! it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this. on the other hand, when choosing files in the open files menu, cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi-lighter square. incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info. and really, how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing? in all fairness, how many people do you know personally who read images from floppy drives? i haven't tried it with jpegs, but i do realize how agonizingly slow it is with gif files. nevertheless, it is an important bug that needs to be squashed. i am merely pointing out that it was probably overlooked. while it is serious, one must keep in mind that it will probably affect at most 5% of the targeted users of cview. 
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 over where it places its temp files: it just places them in its "current directory". i have to beg to differ on this point, as the batch file i use to launch cview cd's to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it. every time i crash cview, the 0-byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on. just my $0.13, cyberspace buddha { why are you looking for more knowledge when you } /(o\ cb@wixer.bga.com \ do not pay attention to what you already know? / \o)/ cb@wixer.cactus.org } "get out of my chair!" -- hillary to god { peace... 
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 help!! i need code/package/whatever to take 3-d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed. i'm using a dos machine, and the code can be in ansi c or c++, ansi fortran or basic. the data i'm using forms a rectangular grid. please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit. imho, this is a general interest question. thank you!!!!!! 
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 just posting to john cormack. i wanted to tell you that there is a "slight" difference between speedstar 24 and speedstar 24x /stefan 
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 does anyone know of a good way (standard pc application/pd utility) to convert tif/img/tga files into laserjet iii format. we would also like to do the same, converting to hpgl (hp plotter) files. please email any response. is this the correct group? thanks in advance. michael. michael collier (programmer) the computer unit, email: m.p.collier@uk.ac.city the city university, tel: 071 477-8000 x3769 london, fax: 071 477-8565 ec1v 0hb. 
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 : help!! i need code/package/whatever to take 3-d data and turn it into : a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed. i'm using a dos machine, and : the code can be in ansi c or c++, ansi fortran or basic. the data i'm using : forms a rectangular grid. : please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit. imho, this : is a general interest question. : thank you!!!!!! 
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 i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces. does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source?? marco seirio - in real life sp1marse@caligula.his.s 
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 i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least 1024x786x24 resolution. i know matrox has one, but it is very expensive. all the other cards i know of, that support that resoultion, are striaght isa. what about the elsa winner4000 (s3 928, bt485, 4mb, eisa), or the metheus premier-4vl (s3 928, bt485, 4mb, isa/vl) ? also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support 24 bits? as it just happens, sgcs has a xserver (x386 1.4) that does 1024x768x24 on those cards. please email to info@sgcs.com for more das reh springt hoch, e-mail: roell@sgcs.com das reh springt weit, #include <sys/pizza.h> was soll es tun, es hat ja zeit ... 
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 the subject says it all. is there a pd viewer for gl files (for x)? 
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 |> looking for a graphics/cad/or-whatever package on a x-unix box that will |> take a file with records like: |> n a b p |> where n = a count - integer |> a = entity a - string |> b = entity b - string |> p = type - string |> and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles |> and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by |> n. there would be a different line type for each type of vertice. the boxes |> need to be identified with the entity's name. the number of entities < 1000 |> and vertices < 100000. it would be nice if the tool minimized line |> cross-overs and did a good job of layout. ;-) |> i have looked in the faq for comp.graphics and gnuplot without success. any |> ideas would be appreciated? |> thanks, |> glen fullmer, glen_fullmer@pts.mot.com, (407)364-3296 see roger grywalski's response to : re: help on network visualization in comp.graphics.visualization. amongst other things, it does exactly this! chris murphy - chris@alta-oh.com (614) 792-2222 columbus. oh. 
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 first off: thanks to all who have filled me in on the existence of the 68070. i assumed rashly that the particular number would be reserved for further enhancements to the motorola line, rather than meted out to another company. ah, well, i guess that's what i get when i assume the computer industry will operate in a logical manner! ;-) sean, i don't want to get into a 'mini-war' by what i am going to say, but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris, you'll see why (please, no-flames, i reserve those for c.s.m.a :-) ) i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show, and apple had booth there. i walked by, and they were showing real-time video capture using a (radious or supermac?) card to digitize and make right on the quicktime movies. i think the quicktime they were using was the old one (1.5). version 1.5 of quicktime is, as has been stated, the current version of the software. the older version is 1.0, and 1.6 is on the horizon in the not too distant future. they digitized a guy talking there in 160x2xx something. it played back quite nicely and in real time. the guy then expanded the window (resized) to 25x by 3xx (320 in y i think) and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn't 30fps (or about 30fps) anymore. it dropped to like 15 fps. then increased it just a bit more, and it dropped to 10<->12 fps. quicktime does a much better job of playing back movies at size than it does playing back resized movies. apparently the process of expanding each frame's image and dithering the resultant bitmap to the appropriate bit depth is pretty processor-intensive. there are optimizers that work pretty well for showing movies at double size, but if you drop to 1.9x size or increase to 2.1x size, performance suffers dramatically. then i asked him what mac he was using... he was using a quadra (don't know what model, 900?) to do it, and he was telling the guys there that the could play back at the same speed even on an lcii. he lied. :-) quicktime is very cpu dependent. he was probably confused by the fact that qt is locked to an internal timecode, and will play in the same amount of time on any machine. however, an lc will drop frames in order to keep the sound and video synced up. the centris and quadras have similar cpus and will thus boast similar performance, though the quadras will be a bit faster due to marginally faster clock speeds and somewhat different architecture. well, i spoiled his claim so to say, since a 68040 quadra mac was a little bit of trouble. and this wasn't even from the hardisk! this from memory! could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime, or some hardware assisted centris, or another software product running the animation (like supposedly macromind's accelerator?)? i expect that the version of the quicktime software you saw was 1.0 -- i was using was 1.5. one of the new codecs in v1.5 allows video at nearly twice the size and the same frame rate as what version 1.0 could handle. the centris 650 i saw was a plain-vanilla, with the exception of the nice speakers that were playing the sound, and the software was movie player, the qt player apple includes with the software. don't misunderstand me, i just want to clarify this. no problem -- it still surprises me that quicktime is able to do the things it does as well as it can. sean mcmains | check out the gopher | phone:817.565.2039 university of north texas | new bands info server | fax :817.565.4060 p.o. box 13495 | at seanmac.acs.unt.edu | e-mail: denton tx 76203 | | mcmains@unt.edu 
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 look in the /pub/space directory on ames.arc.nasa.gov - there are a number of earth images there. you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission (ie, "apollo") rather than under the image subject. for those of you who don't need 24 bit, i got a 32 colour amiga iff of a cloudless earth (scanned). looks okay when mapped on a sphere. e-mail me and i'll send it you... i'm hanging on your words, living on your breath, feeling with your skin, will i always be here? -- in your room [ dm ] 
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 |>hello netters |>sorry, i don't know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing, |>probably should be a cfv, but since i don't have tha ability to create a |>news group myself, i just want to start the discussion. |>i enjoy reading c.g very much, but i often find it difficult to sort out what |>i'm interested in. everything from screen-drivers, graphics cards, graphics |>programming and graphics programs are discused here. what i'd like is a |>comp.graphics.programmer news group. |>what do you other think. this sounds wonderful, but it seems no one either wants to spend time doing this, or they don't have the power to do so. for example, i would like to see a comp.graphics architecture like this: comp.graphics.algorithms.2d comp.graphics.algorithms.3d comp.graphics.algorithms.misc comp.graphics.hardware comp.graphics.misc comp.graphics.software/apps however, that is almost overkill. something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier: comp.graphics.programmer comp.graphics.hardware comp.graphics.apps comp.graphics.misc it would be nice to see specialized groups devote to 2d, 3d, morphing, raytracing, image processing, interactive graphics, toolkits, languages, object systems, etc. but these could be posted to a relevant group or have a mailing list organized. that way when someone reads news they don't have to see these subject headings, which are rather disparate: system specific stuff ( should be under comp.sys or comp.os.???.programmer ): "need help programming gl" "modex programming information?" "fast sprites on pc" hardware technical stuff: "speed of weitek p9000" "drivers for speedstar 24x" applications oriented stuff: "vistapro 3.0 help" "how good is 3dstudio?" "best image processing program for amiga" programming oriented stuff: "fast polygon routine needed" "good morphing alogirhtm wanted" "best depth sort for triangles?" "which c++ library to get?" i wish someone with the power would get a cfd and then a cfv going on this stuff....this newsgroup needs it. 
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 : >a stupid question, but what will cview run on and where can i get it? i : >am still in need of a gif viewer for linux. (without x-windows.) : >thanks! : ho boy. there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do : any other graphics in linux without x windows! i love linux because it is : so easy to learn.. you want text? okay. use linux. you want text and : graphics? use linux with x windows. simple. painless. required to have : x windows if you want graphics! this includes fancy word processors like : doc, image viewers like xv, etc. ummm, i beg to differ. a kind soul sent me a program called dpg-view that will do exactly what i want, view gif images under linux without x-windows. and, it does support all the way up to 1024x768. the biggest complaint i have is it is painfully slow. it takes about 1 minute to display an image. i am use to cshow under dos which takes a split second. any idea why it is so slow under linux? anybody have anything better? plus, anybody have the docs to dpg-view? thanks! 
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 : help!! i need code/package/whatever to take 3-d data and turn it into : a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed. i'm using a dos machine, and : the code can be in ansi c or c++, ansi fortran or basic. the data i'm using : forms a rectangular grid. : is a general interest question. : thank you!!!!!! i'm afraid your reply didn't get thru. i do appreciate you trying to reply, however. please try again. 
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 |> could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be |> used to manipulate postscript files.i am specifically interested in |> drawing lines, boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots. |> i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it's features. however |> it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the |> programme.is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format? |> any help would be greatly appreciated. |> nishantha i think you are too optimistic! postscript is a very big language and so the fig format can not be able to be an interpreter of any arbitrary ps code. the only program i know to manipulate postscript files is i for myself use xfig and include the postscript files (converted to epsi format). small changes then are possible (erasing some letters, adding text and so on). 
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 nyc acm/siggraph: understanding images subject: pace university/siggraph conference on understanding images the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines, including the physical, biological and computational sciences, technology, art, psychology, philosophy, and education, in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context. featured topics include: psychology/perception image analysis date: friday & saturday, 21-22 may 1993 time: 9:00 am - 6:00 pm place: the pace downtown theater one pace plaza (on spruce street between park row & gold street) ny, ny 10038 fees: pre-registration (prior to 1 may 1993): members $55.00 non-members $75.00 students $40.00 (proof of f/t status required) registration (after 1 may 1993 or on-site): all attendees $95.00 (registration fee includes brakfast, breaks & lunch) send registration information & fees to: dr. francis t. marchese computer science department nyc/acm siggraph conference pace university 1 pace plaza (room t-1704) new york ny 10036 voice: (212) 346-1803 fax: (212) 346-1933 email: marchesf@pacevm.bitnet registration information: name _________________________________________________________________ title ________________________________________________________________ company ______________________________________________________________ street address _______________________________________________________ city ________________________________state____________zip_____________ day phone (___) ___-____ evening phone (___) ___-____ fax phone (___) ___-____ email_____________________________________ detailed description: artists, designers, scientists, engineers and educators share the problem of moving information from one mind to another. traditionally, they have used pictures, words, demonstrations, music and dance to communicate imagery. however, expressing complex notions such as god and infinity or a seemingly well defined concept such as a flower can present challenges which far exceed their technical skills. the explosive use of computers as visualization and expression tools has compounded this problem. in hypermedia, multimedia and virtual reality systems vast amounts of information confront the observer or participant. wading through a multitude of simultaneous images and sounds in possibly unfamiliar representions, a confounded user asks: "what does it all mean?" since image construction, transmission, reception, decipherment and ultimate understanding are complex tasks, strongly influenced by physiology, education and culture; and, since electronic media radically amplify each processing step, then we, as electronic communicators, must determine the fundamental paradigms for composing imagery for understanding. therefore, the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines, including, but not limited to, the physical, biological and computational sciences, technology, art, psychology, philosophy, and education, in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context. featured speakers include: psychology/perception: marc de may, university of ghent beverly j. jones, university of oregon barbara tversky, standfor university michael j. shiffer, mit tom hubbard, ohio state university image analysis: a. ravishankar rao, ibm watson research center nalini bhusan, smith college xiaopin hu, university of illinois narenda ahuja, university of illinois les m. sztander, university of toledo design: mark bajuk, university of illinois alyce kaprow, mit text: xia lin, pace university john loustau, hunter college jong-ding wang, hunter college judson rosebush, judson rosebush co. sound: matthew witten, university of texas robert wyatt, center for high performance computing robert s. williams, pace university rory stuart, nynex michael heim, education foundation of dpma 
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 the most ridiculous example of vr-exploitation i've seen so far is the "virtual reality clothing company" which recently opened up in vancouver. as far as i can tell it's just another "chic" clothes spot. although it would be interesting if they were selling "virtual clothing".... e-mail me if you want me to dig up their phone # and you can probably get some promotional lit. i understand there have been a couple of raves in la billing themselves as "virtual reality" parties. what i hear they do is project .gif images around on the walls, as well as run animations through a newtek toaster. seems like we need to adopt the term really virtual reality or something, except for the non-immersive stuff which is virtually really virtual reality. (8^)- _________pratice safe .signature! prevent dangerous signature virii!_______ guildenstern: our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a summons ... there must have been a moment, at the beginning, where we could have said -- no. but somehow we missed it. 
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 let's say you have a scanned image of a line drawing; in this case a boat, but it could be anything. on the drawing you have a set of reference points whose true x,y positions are known. now you digitize the drawing manually (in this case, using yaron danon's excellent digitize program). that is, you use a program which converts cursor positions to x,y and saves those values when you click the mouse. upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways from the known true values. this is understandable because the scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and contraction of paper, errors introduced in the printing process, scanner errors and what have you. the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing, so "global" adjustments such as stretching/contracting uniformly over x or y, or rotating the whole drawing, are not satisfactory. so the question is: does any kind soul know of an algorithm for removing such distortion? in particular, if i have three sets of reference(x,y) (the known true values) distortedreference(x,y) (the same points, with known errors) distorteddata(x,y) (other points, with unknown errors) what function of reference and distorted could i apply to distorteddata to remove the errors. i suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted reference points as resulting from the projection of a "bumpy" 3d surface, solving for the surface and then "flattening" it to remove the errors in the other data points. it helps to have some idea of the source of the distortion - or at least a reasonable model of the class of distortion. below is a very short description of the process which we use; if you have further questions, feel free to poke me via e-mail. *assume: locally smooth distortion 0) compute the delaunay triangulation of your (x,y) points. this defines the set of neighbors for each point. if your data are not naturally convex, you may have very long edges on the convex hull. consider deleting these edges. 1) now, there are two goals: a) move the distorteddata(x,y) to the reference(x,y) b) keep the length(e) (as measured from the current (x,y)'s) as close as possible to the digitizedlength(e) (as measured using the digitized (x,y)'s). 2) for every point, compute a displacement based on a) and b). for example: a) for (x,y) points for which you know the reference(x,y), you can move alpha0*(reference(x,y) - current(x,y)). this will slowly move the distortedreference(x,y) towards the reference(x,y). b) for all other points, examine the current length of each edge. for each edge, compute a displacement which would make that edge the correct length (where "correct" is the digitizedlength). take the vector sum of these edge displacements, and move the point alpha1*sumofedgedisplacements. this will keep the triangulated mesh consistent with your digitized mesh. 3) iterate 2) until you are happy (for example, no point moves very much). alpha0 and alpha1 need to be determined by experimentation. consider how much you believe the reference(x,y) - i.e., do you absolutely insist on the final points exactly matching the references, or do you want to balance some error in matching the reference against changes in length of the edges. warning: there are a couple of geometric invariants which must be observed (essentially, you can't allow the convex hull to change, and you can't allow triangles to "fold over" neighboring triangles. both of these can be handled either by special case checks on the motion of individual points, or by periodically re-triangulating the points (using the current positions - but still calculating digitizedlength from the original positions. when we first did this, the triangulation time was prohibitive, so we only did it once. if i were motivated to try and change code that has been working in production mode for 5 years, i *might* go back and re-triangulate on every iteration. if you have more compute power than you know what to do with, you might consider having every point interact with every other point....but first read up on linear solutions to the n-body problem. there are lots of papers in the last 10 years of siggraph proceedings on springs, constraints, and energy calculations which are relevant. the above method is described, in more or less detail in: @inproceedings{sloan86, author="sloan, jr., kenneth r. and david meyers and christine a.~curcio", title="reconstruction and display of the retina", booktitle="proceedings: graphics interface '86 vision interface '86", address="vancouver, canada", pages="385--389", month="may", year=1986 } @techreport{curcio87b, author="christine a.~curcio and kenneth r.~sloan and david meyers", title="computer methods for sampling, reconstruction, display, and analysis of retinal whole mounts", number="tr 87-12-03", institution="department of computer science, university of washington", address="seattle, wa", month="december", year=1987 } @article{curcio89, author="christine a.~curcio and kenneth r.~sloan and david meyers", title="computer methods for sampling, reconstruction, display, and analysis of retinal whole mounts", journal="vision research", volume=29, number=5, pages="529--540", year=1989 } kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan@cis.uab.edu university of alabama at birmingham (205) 934-2213 115a campbell hall, uab station (205) 934-5473 fax birmingham, al 35294-1170 
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 i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces. does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source?? marco seirio - in real life sp1marse@caligula.his.s you also have a severe problem with news headers. ftp to cs.purdue.edu:pub/vanecek and pull proxima.tar.z and proxima.ps.z. tres spif. lance norskog thinman@netcom.com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom. 
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 to: ad994@freenet.carleton.ca jw> 1) where is there a book or code that will teach me how jw> to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files? jw> 2) how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board jw> so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256 jw> 800x600x256 jw> 3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question? here are some that i have that are very good: graphics file formats, kay and levine, isbn 0-8306-3059-7 supercharged bitmapped graphics, rimmer, isbn 0-8306-3788-5 programmer's guide to the ega and vga cards, ferraro, isbn 0-201-57025-4 (has a whole chapter on paradise svga) . deluxe./386 1.12 #8993 . 
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 i'm looking for any information on detecting and/or calculating a double point and/or cusp in a bezier curve. an algorithm, literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated, 
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 sorry to clog up the news group with this message. wayne rigby, i have the info you requested, but for some reason i can not mail it to you. please contact me! send email address. "no real programmer can function without caffeine" - zen + art of internet _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ john s. muller _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ muller@diego.llnl.gov _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ muller@sisal.llnl.gov _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jmuller@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ "you are not drunk until you have to grab the grass, to keep the grass from falling off the earth" - some stupid comedian 
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 re: majority of users not readding from floppy. well, how about those of us who have 1400-picture cd-roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well, but can't because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program's path, not the current actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a temp or tmp environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable. this is pretty much a standard for dos, windows and os/2 what i have to say is my own opinion and has no bearing on any other person or organization including my employer. rknight@salestech.com (404) 841-5316 sales technologies, inc. 
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 i have a problem, i hope some of the 'gurus' can help me solve. background of the problem: i have a rectangular mesh in the uv domain, i.e the mesh is a mapping of a 3d bezier patch into 2d. the area in this domain which is inside a trimming loop had to be rendered. the trimming loop is a set of 2d bezier curve segments. for the sake of notation: the mesh is made up of cells. my problem is this : the trimming area has to be split up into individual smaller cells bounded by the trimming curve segments. if a cell is wholly inside the area...then it is output as a whole , else it is trivially rejected. does any body know how thiss can be done, or is there any algo. somewhere for doing this. any help would be appreciated. to get irritated is human, to stay cool, divine. 
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 |> i'm looking for any information on detecting and/or calculating a double |> point and/or cusp in a bezier curve. |> an algorithm, literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated, there was a very useful article in one of the 1989 issues of transactions on graphics. i believe maureen stone was one of the authors. sorry not to be more specific. i don't have the reference here with me. the article actually was more general than this, giving a way to decide whether a given (cubic) bezier curve contains cusps, intersection points or whatever wierdness. the same treatment is also available in siggraph 89 course notes for the course called "math for siggraph" or something like dr memory jbulf@kpc.com 
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 organization: "a world of information at your fingertips" i'm getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice. i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows. i was originally thinking of a targa+ but that doesn't work under windows. what cards should i be looking into? "to forgive is divine, to be -craig williamson an airhead is human." craig.williamson@columbiasc.ncr.com -balki bartokomas craig@toontown.columbiasc.ncr.com (home) perfect strangers you should still consider the targa+. i run windows 3.1 on it all the time at work and it works fine. i think all you need is the right josh west email: mscrap@halcyon.com at&t also puts out two new products for windows, model numbers elude me now, a 15 bit video board with framegrabber and a 16bit with same. yesterday i was looking at a product at a local software etc store. media vision makes a 15bit (32,768 color) frame capture board that is stand alone and doesnot use the feature connector on your existing video card. it claims upto 30 fps live capture as well as single frame from either composite ntsc or s-video in and out. don lewis <djlewis@ualr.edu> 
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 i need some help. we are upgrading our animation/video editing stand. we are looking into the different type of setups for a/b roll and a cuts only station. we would like this to be controlled by a computer ( brand doesnt matter but maybe mac, or amiga). low end to high end system setups would be very helpful. if you have a system or use a system that might be of use, could you mail me your system requirements, what it is used for, and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up. if you need more info, you can mail me at eylerken@u.washington.edu thanks in advance. :ken :eylerken@u.washington.edu 
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 could anyone tell me if it's possible to save each frame of a .gl (grasp) animation to .gif, .jpg, .iff or any other picture formats. if you have the grasp animation system, then yes, it's quite easy. you simply use glib to extract the image (each "frame" in a .gl is actually a complete .pcx or .clp file), then use one of many available utilities to convert it. if you don't have the grasp package, i'm afraid i can't help you. sorry. by the way, before you ask, grasp (graphics animation system for professionals) is a commercial product that sells for just over us$300 from most mail-order companies i've seen. and no, i don't have it. :) corey webb | corey webb | "for in much wisdom is much grief, and | | cbw790s@vma.smsu.edu | he that increaseth knowledge increaseth | | bitnet: cbw790s@smsvma | sorrow." -- ecclesiastes 1:18 | | the "s" means i am only | "but first, are you experienced?" | | speaking for myself. | -- jimi hendrix | 
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 hi!... i am searching for packages that could handle multi-page gif files... are there any on some ftp servers? i'll appreciate one which works on pc (either on dos or windows 3.0/3.1). but any package works on unix will be ok.. thanks in advance... 
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 please , i need the starting address (pointer) for the beginning of the color information (rgb) on vga mode 68h (that's 68 hex, gee, duh!)... thanks soooo much (hugs and kisses) in advance..... .....john (at uci) e-mail---> eapu207@orion.oac.uci.edu 
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 hi all, can someone point me towards some articles on 'boids' or flocking algorithms... ? also, articles on particle animation formulas would be nice... |0 ___ ___ ____ ____ ____ 0|\ | \ \// || || || james kewageshig |\| | _\//_ _||_ _||_ _||_ uucp: james.kewageshig@canrem.com |\| | n e t w o r k v i i i fidonet: james kewageshig - 1:229/15 |\| |0______________________________________________________________________0|\| \________________________________________________________________________\| þ deluxeý 1.25 #8086 þ head of co*& xv$# hi this is a signature virus. co canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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 greetings all. according to a faq i read, on 30 july 1992, joshua c. jensen posted an article on bitmap manipulation (specifically, scaling and perspective) to the newsgroup rec.games.programmer. (article 7716) the article included source code in turbo pascal with inline assembly i have been unable to find an archive for this newsgroup, or a current email address for joshua c. jensen. if anyone has the above details, or a copy of the code, could they please let me know. many thanks. yours gratefully, etc. myles. myles strous | email: myles.strous@lib.monash.edu.au raytracing fan | phone: +61.51.226536 "got the same urgent grasp of reality as a cardboard cut-out. proud to have him on the team." archchancellor mustrum ridcully, in reaper man by terry pratchett 
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 i would like to program tseng et4000 to nonstandard 1024x768 mode by switching to standard 1024x768 mode using bios and than changing some timing details (0x3d4 registers 0x00-0x1f) but i don't know how to select 36 mhz pixel clock i need. the bios function selects 40 mhz. is there anybody who knows where to obtain technical info about this. i am also interested in any other technical information about tseng et4000 and trident 8900 and 9000 chipsets. thanks very much pavel zemcik dept. of comp. sci. & eng. technical university of brno bozetechova 2 cs-612 66 brno czech republic e-mail: zemcik@dcse.fee.vutbr.cs 
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 hello netters! i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland. i've looked though the last faq for comp.graphics but i didn't find my answer. thus the post. i'll keep it short. question: how do i display any raster files, gif files, iff or tiff images that i have on my "root window" or background? i have a sun ipc, openwindows 3.0, sun os 4.1.3 if that helps any. i've compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have done as a background/tile. thanks for any help or information that you provide. have a good day. scott fleming p.s. kudo's to the people who provided pov, its great! 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38497">
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 g'day all, can anybody point me at a utility which will read/convert/crop/whatnot/ display hdf image files ? i've had a look at the hdf stuff under ncsa and it must take an award for odd directory structure, strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation :-) part of the problem is that i want to look at large (5mb+) hdf files and crop out a section. ideally i would like a hdftoppm type of utility, from which i can then use the pbmplus stuff quite merrily. i can convert the cropped part into another format for viewing/animation. otherwise, can someone please explain how to set up the ncsa visualisation s/w for hdf (3.2.r5 or 3.3beta) and do the above cropping/etc. this is for suns with sunos 4.1.2. any help greatly appreciated. ta muchly ! markus buchhorn, parallel computing research facility email = markus@octavia.anu.edu.au australian national university, canberra, 0200 , australia. [international = +61 6, australia = 06] [phone = 2492930, fax = 2490747] markus buchhorn, parallel computing research facility email = markus@octavia.anu.edu.au australian national university, canberra, 0200 , australia. [international = +61 6, australia = 06] [phone = 2492930, fax = 2490747] 
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 according to the tiff 5.0 specification, the tiff "version number" (bytes 2-3) 42 has been chosen for its "deep philosophical significance". when i first read this, i rotfl. finally some philosphy in a technical spec. but still i wondered what makes 42 so significant. last week, i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, and rotfl the second time. (after millions of years of calculation, the second-best computer of all time reveals that 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe and everything) is this actually how they picked the number 42? does anyone have any other suggestions where the 42 came from? i don't know where douglas adams took it from, but i'm pretty sure he's the one who launched it (in the guide). since then it's been showing up all over the place. / _ l* / _ / . / _ /_ "one thing is for sure: the sheep / _) /()(/(/)//)) /_ ()(/_) / / is not a creature of the earth." / \_)~ (/ joachim@kih.no / / /_______________________________/ / -the back-masking on 'haaden ii' /_______________________________/ from 'exposure' by robert fripp. 
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 |> the subject says it all. is there a pd viewer for gl files (for x)? try xviewgl. (filename xviewgl_v1.1.tar.z on lots of bases) // | "what do you think \x/ (yep, me too...) | this is? real life?" ove petter tro, | - ford fairlane. kongsberg college | of engineering, norway | email: ovep@kih.no 
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 i have a diamond speedstar 24x board that i want to program for 24 bit 640x480 graphics, or possibly 800x600 16 bit color. does anybody have any libraries supporting these modes on this board? even somes simple routines to set the graphics mode and plot individual pixels would be a great help. i plan to use the routines with djgp. thanks in advance. please respond also via e-mail. david max max@slinky.cs.nyu.edu 
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 hi ... recently i found xv for ms-dos in a subdirectory of gnu-cc (gnuish). i please tell me where you where you ftp'd this from? i would like to have a copy of it. (i would have mailed you, but your post indicates you have no mail address...) wayne michael wdm@world.std.com 
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 |> >in article <1993apr15.144843.19549@rchland.ibm.com> ricardo hernandez |> >> and cd-i's cpu doesn't help much either. i understand it is |> >>a 68070 (supposedly a variation of a 68000/68010) running at something |> >>like 7mhz. with this speed, you *truly* need sprites. |> >wow! a 68070! i'd be very interested to get my hands on one of these, |> >especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the |> >68060, which is supposedly the next in the 680x0 lineup. 8-d |> don't get too excited; signetics, not motorola, gave the 68070 its number. |> the 68070, if i understand rightly, uses the 68000 instruction set, and has |> an on-chip serial port and dma. (it will run at up to 15 mhz--i'm typing |> at a computer using a 68070 running at that rate, so i know that it can |> do so--so i seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo@rchland.vnet.ibm.com |> claims.) |> james jones just because the 68070 can run upto 15mhz doesn't mean the cd-i is running at that speed. i said -> i understand it is a 68070 running at something like 7mhz. i am not sure, but i think i read this a long time ago. anyway, still with 15mhz, you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games (read psygnosis). raist new a1200 owner 320<->1280 in x, 200<->600 in y in 256,000+ colors from a 24-bit palette. **i love it!**<- new low fat .sig *don't e-mail me* -> i don't have a valid address nor can i send e-mail 
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 why so up tight? for that matter, tiff6 is out now, so why not gripe about its problems? also, if its so important to you, volunteer to help define or critique the spec. i've got the 6.0 spec (obviously since i quoted it in my last posting). my gripe about tiff is that it's far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read, which i think hurts your acceptance by anything that will need to read those images (e.g., paint programs). in a nutshell, i don't think tiff is salvageable unless the fat is trimmed significantly- and then it wouldn't be tiff anymore. they keep trying to cut it back, but it's late now. maybe they >will< fix it, and change that magic number to signify the lack of compatibility. that would probably make me happy. 
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 the rtrace ray tracer supports 3d text as a primitive, not collections of spheres, cylinders and so on... the 3d chars are made of lines and splines that are extruded... please have a look at asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17] in directory pub/rtrace. in pub/rtrace/tmp there are some demo images with high quality text. all of them are called text?.jpg (jpeg encoded). see them first and then tell me what you think. o o / / i n e s c | o | antonio costa | e-mail acc@asterix.inescn.pt | |\ | o | acosta@porto.inescn.pt | | \ | / o comp. graphics & cad | decnet porto::a_costa | | / | | largo mompilher 22 | uucp {mcvax,...}!... o | |-o | | 4100 porto portugal | bell +351+02+321006 o o o "let the good times roll..." 
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 beware. there is only one such *copyrighted* image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright. that image took hundreds of man-hours to build from the source satellite images, so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon. so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it. the article didn't say anything about copyrights. i'm hanging on your words, living on your breath, feeling with your skin, will i always be here? -- in your room [ dm ] 
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 |> ch> concerning the proposed newsgroup split, i personally am not in |> ch> favor of doing this. i learn an awful lot about all aspects of |> ch> graphics by reading this group, from code to hardware to |> ch> algorithms. i just think making 5 different groups out of this |> ch> is a wate, and will only result in a few posts a week per group. |> ch> i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for |> ch> discussing all aspects of graphics. anyone else feel this way? |> ch> just curious. |> i must agree. there is a dizzying number of c.s.amiga.* newsgroups |> already. in addition, there are very few issues which fall cleanly |> into one of these categories. |> also, it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga |> groups is already plagued with mega-crossposting; thus the group-split |> would not, in all likelihood, bring about a more structured |> environment. |> / michael nerone \"i shall do so with my customary lack of tact; and\ |> / internet address: \since you have asked for this, you will be obliged\ |> /nerone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu\to pardon it."-sagredo, fictional char of galileo.\ it might be nice to know, what's possible on different hard ware platforms. but usually the hard ware is fixed ( in my case either unix or dos- pc ). so i'm not much interested in amiga news. in the case of software, i won't get any comercial software mentioned in this newgroup to run on a unix- platform, so i'm not interested in this information. i would suggest to split the group. i don't see the problem of cross-posting. then you need to read just 2 newgroups with half the size. but what would be more important is to have a faq. this would reduce the traffic a lot. sincerely, gerhard i'm writing this as a privat person, not reflecting any opinions of the inst. of hydromechanics, the university of karlsruhe, the land baden-wuerttemberg, the federal republic of germany and the european community. the address and phone number below are just to get in touch with me. everything i'm saying, writing and typing is always wrong ! (statement necessary to avoid law suits) - dipl.-ing. gerhard bosch m.sc. voice:(0721) - 608 3118 - - institute for hydromechanic fax:(0721) - 608 4290 - - university of karlsruhe, kaiserstrasse 12, 7500-karlsruhe, germany - - internet: bosch@ifh-hp2.bau-verm.uni-karlsruhe.de - - bitnet: nd07@dkauni2.bitnet - 
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 i'm looking for any information on detecting and/or calculating a double point and/or cusp in a bezier curve. see: maureen stone and tony derose, "a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves", acm tog, vol 8, no 3, july 1989, pp. 147-163. ...ron capelli ibm corp. dept. c13, ms. p230 capelli@vnet.ibm.com po box 950 (914) 435-1673 poughkeepsie, ny 12602 "there are no answers, only cross references." 
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 do somenone know the solution to run xv ??? any help would be apprecied.. i would guess that it requires x, almost certainly dv/x, which commonly uses the go32 (djgpp) setup for its programs. if you don't have dv/x running, you can't get anything which requires interfacing with x. kevin martin sigma@rahul.net "i gotta get me another hat." 
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 does anybody know where i can get, via anonymous ftp or otherwise, a postscript driver for the graphics libraries gino verison 3.0a ? we are runnining on a vax/vms and are looking for a way outputing our plots to a postscript file... thanks in advance... koon tang, internet: ktt3@unix.bton.ac.uk department of mathematical sciences, uucp: uknet!itri!ktt3 university of brighton, bn2 4gj, u.k. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38525">
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 i'm not sure if you got the information you were looking for, so i'll post it anyway for the general public. to load an image on your root window add this line to the end of your .xsession file: xloadimage -onroot -fullscreen <gif_file_name> & this is assuming of course you have the xloadimage client, and as for the switches, i think they pretty much explain what is going on. if you leave out the <&>, the terminal locks till you kill it. (you already knew that though...) hope this helps. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38527">
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 sorry for the repeat of this request, but does anyone know of a good free/shareware program with which i can create ray-traces and save them as bit-mapped files? (of course if there is such a thing =) thanks in advance 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38530">
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 i downloaded an image of the earth re-constructed from elevation data taken at 1/2 degree increments. the author (not me) wrote some c-code (included) that read in the data file and generated b&w and pseudo color images. they work very well and are not incumbered by copyright. they are at an aminet site near you called earth.lha in the amiga/pix/misc area... i refer you to the included docs for the details on how the author (sorry, i forget his name) created these images. the raw data is not included. david m. ingebretsen evans & sutherland computer corp. dingebre@thunder.sim.es.com disclaimer: the content of this message in no way reflects the opinions of my employer, nor are my actions encouraged, supported, or acknowledged by my 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38531">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38531" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 |> the idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon (not |> necessarily rectangular) as a window. my problem then is in |> finding out all the new vertices of the resulting "subpolygons" |> from the first one. is this simply a matter of extending the |> usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked |> against another polygon??? is there a simpler way?? |> comments welcome. |> noel. it depends on what kind of the polygons. convex - simple, concave - trouble, concave with loop(s) inside - big trouble. of cause, you can use the box test to avoid checking each edges. according to my experience, there is not a simple way to go. the headache stuff is to deal with the special cases, for example, the overlapped lines. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38533">
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 however, that is almost overkill. something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier: comp.graphics.programmer comp.graphics.hardware comp.graphics.apps comp.graphics.misc that's closer, but i dislike "apps". "software" (vs. "hardware") would be better. would that engulf alt.graphics.pixutils? or would that be "programmer"? i don't know if traffic is really heavy enough to warrant a newsgroup split. look how busy comp.graphics.research is (not). it's true that a lot of the traffic here is rehashing faqs and discussing things that would probably be better diverted to system-specific groups, but i don't know whether a split would help or hurt that cause. maybe we need a comp.graphics.rtfb for all those people who can't be bothered to read the fine books out there. right, dr. rogers? :-) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38534">
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 i need some help. we are upgrading our animation/video editing stand. we are looking into the different type of setups for a/b roll and a cuts only station. we would like this to be controlled by a computer ( brand doesnt matter but maybe mac, or amiga). low end to high end system setups would be very helpful. if you have a system or use a system that might be of use, could you mail me your system requirements, what it is used for, and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up. if you need more info, you can mail me at eylerken@u.washington.edu thanks in advance. :ken :eylerken@u.washington.edu here at lewis and clark college we have recently installed a digital film system (based on the mac quadra) that does non-linear, full digital editing. if you're considering such a system, here are the pros and cons: for the educational environment, this system is excellent. we use it to produce a variety of educational materials for disemination on our local network. because this programming is going to be viewed on other macs, the image quality is not as important as the ability to directly export the video to the net. we also use it to produce orientiation and promotional video programs for use by the lewis & clark community. since these programs are not meant for commercial or broadcast use, image quality is not critical. the digital film system, for those of you who are uninitiated, is an a/b roll digitizing system on one $5000 jpeg compression card. it was promoted as an inexpensive online editing system with svhs quality. supermac, the maker of the card, is trying to achieve this quality level, but as yet, has been unable to deliver. our system produces "near vhs" quality at 30 fields per second (640x480 overscan). the card repeats every other field to get 60 fields per second. this results in a kind of super 8 film look that some find distracting. if you can get past this problem, you'll find the adobe premier editing software quite enjoyable with which to work. it produces thousands of different effects from crystalize filters to dve transitions to color matting. because of its non-linear nature, editing is fast and easy. if you've ever used (or seen used) an avid or montage system, you'll recognize the methodology and the user interface. the total system with quadra 950 (40megs of ram), 1 gig drive, 21" apple mon- itor, panasonic svhs 1960 edit deck, audio gear (cassette, cd, eq, mixer, etc), composite monitor, digital film card will set you back about $20,000. for you video cowboys and girls, this system will not output at a quality that will satisfy most of your clients. even though you can perform more effects than a toasterhead can imagine, an amiga based off-line based system will look better. we use both macs and amigas for our video work. each for what each does best! dan snodgrass media services lewis & clark college 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38535">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38535" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 [please, note the newsgroups.] recent discussion about xv's problems were held in some newsgroup. here is some text users of xv might find interesting. i have added more to text to this collection article, so read on, even you so my articles a while ago. i hope author of xv corrects those problems as best he can, so fine program xv is that it is worth of improving. (i have also minor ideas for 24bit xv, e-mail me for them.) any misundertanding of mine is understandable. juhana kouhia ==clip== [ ..deleted..] note that 'xv' saves only 8bit/rasterized images; that means that the saved jpegs are just like jpeg-to-gif-to-jpeg quality. also, there's three kind of 8bit quantizers; your final image quality depends on them too. this were the situation when i read jpeg faq a while ago. imho, it is design error of 'xv'; there should not be such confusing errors in programs. there's two errors: -xv allows the saving of 8bit/rasterized image as jpeg even the original is 24bit -- saving 8bit/rasterized image instead of original 24bit should be a special case -xv allows saving the 8bit/rasterized image made with any quantizer -- the main case should be that 'xv' quantizes the image with the best quantizer available before saving the image to a file; lousier quantizers should be just for viewing purposes (and a special cases in saving the image, if at all) ==clip== ==clip== [ ..deleted..] it is limit of *xv*, but not limit of design. it is error in design. it is error that 8bit/quantized/rasterized images are stored as jpegs; jpeg is not designed to that. as matter of fact, i'm sure when xv were designed 24bit displays were known. it is not bad error to program a program for 8bit images only at that time, but when 24bit image formats are included to program the whole design should be changed to support 24bit images. that were not done and now we have -the program violate jpeg design (and any 24bit image format) -the program has human interface errors. otherway is to drop saving images as jpegs or any 24bit format without clearly saying that it is special case and not expected in normal use. [ ..deleted.. ] ==clip== some new items follows. ==clip== i have seen that xv quantizes the image sometimes poorly with -best24 option than with default option we have. the reason surely is the quantizer used as -best24; it is (surprise) the same than used in ppmquant. if you remember, i have tested some quantizers. in that test i found that rlequant (with default) is best, then comes djpeg, fbmquant, xv (our default) in that order. in my test ppmquant suggeeded very poorly -- it actually gave image with bad artifacts. i don't know is ppmquant improved any, but i expect no. so, use of xv's -best24 option is not very good idea. i suggest that author of xv changes the quantizer to the one used in rlequant -- i'm sure rle-people gives permission. (another could be one used in imagemagick; i have not tested it, so i can say nothing about it.) ==clip== ==clip== some minor bugs in human interface are: key pressings and cursor clicks goes to a buffer; often it happens that i make click errors or press keyboard when cursor is in the wrong place. it is very annoying when you have waited image to come about five minutes and then it is gone away immediately. the buffer should be cleaned when the image is complete. also, good idea is to wait few seconds before activating keyboard and mouse for xv after the image is completed. often it happens that image pops to the screen quickly, just when i'm writing something with editor or such. those key pressings then go to xv and image has gone or something weird. in the color editor, when i turn a color meter and release it, xv updates the images. it is impossible to change all rgb values first and then get the updated image. it is annoying wait image to be updated when the setting are not ready yet. i suggest of adding an 'apply' button to update the exchanges done. ==clip== 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics38537" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 visual numerics inc. (formerly imsl and precision visuals) is in the process of securing sites for beta testing x exponent graphics 1.0 and c exponent graphics 2.0. (both x exponent graphics and c exponent graphics are 3gl products). the beta period is from april 26 through june 18. the platform is hp9000/700 running under os 8.07 with ansi c 8.71 compiler. the media will be sent on 4mm dat cartridge tape. here are some of the key facts about the two products. x exponent graphics 1.0 key facts: 1. complete collection of high-level 2d and 3d application plot types available through a large collection of x resources. 2. cstom widget for osf/motif developers. 3. built-in interactive gui for plot customization. 4. easily-implemented callbacks for customized application feedback. 5. xeg 1.0, being built on the xt toolkit provides the user a widget library that conforms to the expected syntax and standards familar to x programmers. 6. xeg will also be sold as a bundle with visual edge's uim/x product. this will enable user to use a gui builder to create the graphical layout of an application. c exponent graphics 2.0 key facts: 1. written in c for c application programmers/developers. the library is 100% written in c, and the programming interface conforms to c standards, taking advantage fo the most desirable features of c. 2. build-in gui for interactive plot customization. through mouse interaction, the user has complete interactive graph output control with over 200 graphics attributes for plot customization. 3. large collection of high-level application functions for "two-call" graph creation. a wide variety of 2d and 3d plot types are available with minimal programming effort. 4. user ability to interrupt and control the x event. by controlling the x event loop, when the user use the mouse to manipulate the plot the user can allow ceg to control the event loop or the user can control the event loop. if anyone is interested in beta testing either of the products, please contact wendy hou at visual numerics via email at hou@imsl.com or call 713-279-1066. jaclyn brandt jbrandt@neosoft.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38539">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38539" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 ch> concerning the proposed newsgroup split, i personally am not in ch> favor of doing this. i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch> graphics by reading this group, from code to hardware to ch> algorithms. i just think making 5 different groups out of this ch> is a wate, and will only result in a few posts a week per group. ch> i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch> discussing all aspects of graphics. anyone else feel this way? ch> just curious. i must agree. there is a dizzying number of c.s.amiga.* newsgroups already. in addition, there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories. also, it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega-crossposting; thus the group-split would not, in all likelihood, bring about a more structured / michael nerone \"i shall do so with my customary lack of tact; and\ / internet address: \since you have asked for this, you will be obliged\ /nerone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu\to pardon it."-sagredo, fictional char of galileo.\ maybe i should point out that we are not talking about c.s.amiga.*. only comp.graphics. "also for the not religous confessor, there is a mystery of higher values, who's birth mankind - to the last - builds upon. they are indisputible. and often disregarded. seldom you hear them beeing prized, as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees." per lagerkvist, the fist (free translation from swedish) --andreas arff andreasa@dhhalden.no-- 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38540">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38540" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw (.cdr) files containing bitmaps to scodal, as this is the only format our bureau's filmrecorder recognises. jeff lyall inst.geo.nuc.sci.ltd lower hutt new zealand 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38541">
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 a fast polygon routine to do what? to draw polygons of course. its a vga mode 13h (320x200) game, done in c and asm. i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now, which is very slow. what kind of polygons? shaded? texturemapped? hm? more comes into play with fast routines than just "polygons". it would be nice to know exaclty what system (vga is a start, but what processor?) and a few of the specifics of the implementation. you need to give more info if you want to get any answers! :p - ian romanick dancing fool of epsilon | were the contained thoughts 'opinions', epn.ntsc.quality = best| | psu would probably not agree with them. | | "look, i don't know anything about | | douche, but i do know anti-freeze | | when i see it!" - the dead milkmen | 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38545">
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 -> according to the tiff 5.0 specification, the tiff "version number" -> (bytes 2-3) 42 has been chosen for its "deep philosophical -> significance". -> last week, i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, and rotfl the -> second time. (after millions of years of calculation, the second-best -> computer of all time reveals that 42 is the answer to the question -> about life, the universe and everything) -> is this actually how they picked the number 42? -> does anyone have any other suggestions where the 42 came from? at this moment the king, who had been for some time busily writing in his note-book, called out "silence!" and read out from his book "rule forty-two. all persons more than a mile high to leave the court." everybody looked at alice. "i'm not a mile high," said alice. "you are," said the king. "nearly two miles high," added the queen. "well, i sha'n't go, at any rate," said alice; "besides, that's not a regular rule: you invented it just now." "it's the oldest rule in the book," said the king. "then it ought to be number one," said alice. marc kaufman (kaufman@cs.stanford.edu) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38546">
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 in-reply-to: <20apr199312262902@rigel.tamu.edu> lmp8913@rigel.tamu.edu (preston, lisa m) i have a trident card and fullview works real gif jpg try it# 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38547">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38547" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i got the univesa driver available over the net. i thought that finally my 1-meg oak board would be able to show 680x1024 256 colors. unfortunately a program still says that i can't do this. is it the fault of the program (fractint) or is there something wrong with my card. univesa- a free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38548">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38548" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i sent off for my copy today... snail mail. hope to get it back in about ten days. (impulse said "a week".) i hope it's as good as they claim... jim nobles (hope i have what it takes to use it... :>) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38550">
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 does anyone out there have or know of, any kind of utility program for ribbons are a popular representation for 2d shape. i am trying to find symmetry axis in a given any 2d shape using ribbons. any suggestions will be greatly appreciated how to start program. thanks very much in advance, yoo@engr.ucf.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38552">
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 [...], but i'm looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a 3d game. a fast polygon routine to do what? to draw polygons of course. its a vga mode 13h (320x200) game, [...] hi, i've come across a fast triangle fill-draw routine for mode 13h. by calling this routine enough times, you have a fast polygon drawing routine. i think i ftp'ed from wuarchive.wustl.edu:/pub/msdos_uploads/programming. i have a copy of it so i reupload it there. the triangle.txt file has this to say : c and inline assembly source for a vga mode 13h triangle drawer. stephen quan (quan@sol.surv.utas.edu.au) tel : 002 202844 (local) research fellow, computer scientist, fax : 002 240282 (local) centre for spatial information systems, tel : 61 02 202844 university of tasmania, australia. fax : 61 02 240282 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38554">
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 | what i *am* annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that | we *would* be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the | crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck. it should have been made fairly clear that the *most* crimson would ever get was a 150 (75 old style) mhz cpu upgrade. certainly this was mentioned on comp.sys.sgi on more than one occasion as being likely. if our sales folks were saying otherwise, they were either confused, or less than honest/ethical, or somebody further up the chain inside sgi was misleading them. | i'm also annoyed about being sold *several* personal irises at a | previous site on the understanding *that* architecture would be around | for a while, rather than being flushed. there were 4 versions (20, 25, 30, 35), although admittedly the 30 came out at the same time as the 35, over a period of 2 1/2 years. the chassis simply couldn't be pushed any further. i'd say 4 years was a pretty good lifespan, myself, for a system design in this day and age. getting the 35 to work caused a lot of gray hairs in both the hardware and product design groups; we would have been out of our minds to push it further, and i *know* that was made clear, almost from the day the 35 started shipping. we had one last kicker in the form of the elan graphics, which made 3 graphics versions over its lifespan, which i also think is pretty good. | now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to | keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line (odd that i found myself | pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books | just before the end of the quarter), but i'm just a little tired of | getting boned in the process. please, by all means send a complaint letter through sgi support or sales on your concerns. there should be no reason for sales folks to misrepresent future upgrades to customers (sure, sometimes there will be confusion for a while, over whether an upgrade will be available, but that shouldn't last too long, and doesn't seem to be what you are referring to). yes, the sales folks *do* get bonus's at the end of some (all?) quarters, but that is pretty common industry wide, and sometimes that can result in good deals for customers (sometimes it probably pushes folks into systems that aren't what they need, i'm sure, but nobody is *forcing* you to buy at end of quarter, after all...) | maybe it's because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies, so we | aren't entitled to a "peek under the covers" as the big kids (nasa, | for instance) are. this lab, and i suspect that a lot of other labs they don't get all that long a lead time either; although certainly they get presentations on possible new products, and their opinions may well influence the end product, but that also is life in the industry. we can't design systems that meet just their needs, or we won't sell too many systems, after all (which is not to say that we don't have some niche products, like reality engine). | and organizations, doesn't have a load of money to spend on computers | every year, so we can't be out buying new systems on a regular basis. | the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the | entire grant period of five years and, in some case, beyond. that | means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i | have the money, not some product that was built, to paraphrase one | previous poster's words, 'to fill a niche' to compete with some other | vendor. i'm going to be looking at this box for the next five years. | and every time i look at it, i'm going to think about sgi and how i | could have better spent my money (actually *your* money, since we're | supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars). but surely you don't expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period? that's a rather unreasonable expectation, in my experience (with workstations/microcomputers). supported, and parts available, yes, but certainly not upgradable to the latest and greatest! | now you'll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a | corner somewhere and think dark, libelous thoughts. i missed your first posting, but as i say, by all means share your frustation with somebody at a level inside sgi where it might have an effect (not immediate, i'm sure, but complaints aren't going to be ignored, and *may* affect future plans, if we hear similar things from more than one person/site). all of the above is, as usual, my personal opinion, not sgi's. let no one tell me that silence gives consent, | dave olson because whoever is silent dissents. | silicon graphics, inc. maria isabel barreno | olson@sgi.com ps: i start my sabbatical 29 may, ask those questions now ;) 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics38557" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 my coreldraw 3.0.whatever write scodl files directly. look under file|export on the main menu. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38559">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38559" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 : > does anyone have any other suggestions where the 42 came from? yep, here's a theory that i once heard bandied around. rather than thinking of the number think of the sound. for tea two. a sort of anagram on tea for two, two for tea, for tea two. * peter hauke @ brunel university * * se92psh@brunel.ac.uk * 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38565">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38565" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 we have been using iterated systems compression board to compress pathology images and are getting ratios of 40:1 to 70:1 without too much loss in quality. it is taking about 4 mins per image to compress, on a 25mhz 486 but decompression is almost real time on a 386 in software how does that compare with jpeg on the same images and hardware as far as size, speed, and image quality are concerned? despite my skeptical and sometimes nearly rabid postings criticizing barnsley and company, i am very interested in the technique. if i weren't i probably wouldn't be so critical. :-) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38567">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38567" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 |> let's be serious... i'm working on a radiosity package, written in c++. |> i would like to make it public domain. i'll announce it in c.g. the minute |> i finished it. |> that were the good news. the bad news: it'll take another 2 months (at least) |> to finish it. are you using the traditional radiosity method, progressive refinement, or something else in your package? my package is based on several articles about non-standard radiosity and some unpublished methods. the main articles are: - cohen, chen, wallace, greenberg : a progressive refinement approach to fast radiosity image generation computer graphics (siggraph), v. 22(no. 4), pp 75-84, august 1988 - silion, puech a general two-pass method integrating specular and diffuse reflection computer graphics (siggraph), v23(no. 3), pp335-344, july 1989 if you need to project patches on the hemi-cube surfaces, what technique are you using? do you have hardware to facilitate the projection? i do not use hemi-cubes. i have no special hardware (sun sparcstation). |> in the meantime you may have a look at the file |> radiosity_code.tar.z |> located at |> compute1.cc.ncsu.edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site? use anonymous as username and your e-mail address as password. |> (there are some other locations; have a look at archie to get the nearest) |> hope that'll help. |> yours |> stephan thanks, stephan. stephan amann sig computer graphics, university of berne, switzerland amann@iam.unibe.ch tel +41 31 65 46 79 fax +41 31 65 39 65 projects: radiosity, raytracing, computer graphics 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38568">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38568" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 hi !!! this is the response for wayne michael...and certainly for other-one :-) i'm sorry for... 1) the late of the answer but i couldn't find xv221 for msdos 'cause i forgot the address...but i've retrieve it.. 2) posting this answer here in comp.graphics 'cause i can't use e-mail, not yet.... 2) my bad english 'cause i'm a swiss and my language is french.... after a long time i retrieve the address where you can find xv for dos... site : omnigate.clarkson.edu aliases : grape.ecs.clarkson.edu number : 128.153.4.2 /pub/msdos/djgpp/pub it's xv221.zip (?) i think... certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin... he write about dv/x what is it ?????? could someone answer ???? thanx in advance.... * pascal perret | perret@eicn.etna.ch * * ecole d'ingénieur ets | (not available at this time)* * 2400 le locle | * * suisse * * !!!! enjoy computer !!!! * 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38569">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38569" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 are there significant differences between v2.01 and v2.00 ? thank you for helping _/_/ _/_/ e-mail : marc.fombaron@ufrima.imag.fr _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ marc fombaron. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ grenoble. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38572">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38572" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i am trying to configure zsoft's pc paintbrush iv+ for use with my logitech scanman 32 (hand scanner), but i can't get paintbrush to acknowledge the scanner. is there anybody out there using paintbrush with a scanner, if so, can you help me out? thanks luis nobrega | the file bank bbs - 619-728-4318 - pcboard v.14.5a/e10 - usr hst & ds | | 8 nodes / rime / internet / largest clipper file collection in the world | 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38574">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38574" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 : >over where it places its temp files: it just places them in its : >"current directory". : i have to beg to differ on this point, as the batch file i use : to launch cview cd's to the dir where cview resides and then : invokes it. every time i crash cview, the 0-byte temp file : is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on. i posted this as well before the cview "expert". apparently, he thought he knew better. matthew zenkar mz@moscom.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38575">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38575" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi there, i am looking for advice on software/hardware package for making, storing and processing of pictures. the ideal software would allow me to cahnge size of the picture, edit it ( it means add text below, above...) and the most important is it would have dos command interface... thank you in advance... emanuel marciniak the bank of new york.. 
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 i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm. something with code, or pseudo code would be especially i am required to do this for a class, due monday (we have very little time to implement these changes, it is a very fast paced class). the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired, so i would vastly appreciate any help. actually any algorithm would be nice (roberts or no). the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions, need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another. if you can give me an ftp address and filename, or even the name of a good book, i'd really appreciate it. brian raynor 
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 + ............the otis project '93 + + "the operative term is stimulate" + ---this file last updated..4-21-93--- what is otis? otis is here for the purpose of distributing original artwork and photographs over the network for public perusal, scrutiny, and distribution. digital immortality. the basic idea behind "digital immortality" is that computer networks are here to stay and that anything interesting you deposit on them will be around near-forever. the gifs and jpgs of today will be the artifacts of a digital future. perhaps they'll be put in different formats, perhaps only surviving on backup tapes....but they'll be there...and someone will dig them up. if that doesn't interest you... otis also offers a forum for critique and exhibition of your works....a virtual art gallery that never closes and exists in an information dimension where your submissions will hang as wallpaper on thousands of glowing monitors. suddenly, life is breathed into your work...and by merit of it's stimulus, it will travel the globe on pulses of light and electrons. spectators are welcome also, feel free to browse the gallery and let the artists know what you think of their efforts. keep your own copies of the images to look at when you've got the gumption... that's what they're here for. otis currently (as of 4/21/93) has two ftp sites. 141.214.4.135 (projects/otis), the uwi site sunsite.unc.edu (/pub/multimedia/pictures/otis), the sunsite (you can also gopher to this site for otis as well) merely "anonymous ftp" to either site on internet and change to the appropriate directory. don't forget to get busy and use the "bin" command to make sure you're in binary. otis has also been spreading to some dial-up bbs systems around north america....the following systems have a substancial supply of otistuff... underground cafe (omaha) (402.339.0179) 2 lines cyberden (sanfran?) (415.472.5527) usenet waffle-iron how do you contribute? what happens is...you draw a pretty picture or take a lovely photo, get it scanned into an image file, then either ftp-put it in the contrib/incoming directory or use uuencode to send it to me (email addresses at eof) in email. after the image is received, it will be put into the correct directory. computer originated works are also welcome. otis' directories house two types of image files, gif and jpg. gif and jpg files require, oddly enough, a gif or jpg viewer to see. these viewers are available for all types of computers at most large ftp sites around internet. jpg viewers are a bit tougher to find. if you can't find one, but do have a gif viewer, you can obtain a jpg-to-gif conversion program which will change jpg files to a standard gif format. otis also accepts animation files. when you submit image files, please send me email at the same time stating information about what you uploaded and whether it is to be used (in publications or other projects) or if it is merely for people to view. also, include some biographical information on yourself, we'll be having info-files on each contributing artist and their works. you can also just upload a text-file of info about yourself (instead of emailing). if you have pictures, but no scanner, there is hope. merely send copies to: the otis project c/o ed stastny po bx 241113 omaha, ne 68124-1113 i will either scan them myself or get them to someone who will scan them. include an ample sase if you want your stuff back. also include information on each image, preferably a 1-3 line description of the image that we can include in the infofile in the directory where it's finally put. if you have preferences as to what the images are to be named, include those as well. conversely, if you have a scanner and would like to help out, please contact me and we'll arrange things. if you want to submit your works by disk, peachy. merely send a 3.5" disk to the above address (omaha) and a sase if you want your disk back. this is good for people who don't have direct access to encoders or ftp, but do have access to a scanner. we accept disks in either mac or ibm compatible format. if possible, please submit image files as gif or jpg. if you can't...we can convert from most formats...we'd just rather not have to. at senders request, we can also fill disks with as much otis as they can stand. even if you don't have stuff to contribute, you can send a blank disk and an sase (or $2.50 for disk, postage and packing) to get a slab-o-otis. as of 04/21/93, we're at about 18 megabytes of files, and growing. email me for current archive size and directory. the images distributed by the otis project may be distributed freely on the condition that the original filename is kept and that it is not altered in any way (save to convert from one image format to another). in fact, we encourage files to be distributed to local bulletin boards and such. if you could, please transport the appropriate text files along with the images. it would also be nice if you'd send me a note when you did post images from otis to your local bbs. i just want to keep track of them so participants can have some idea how widespread their stuff is. it's the purpose of otis to get these images spread out as much as possible. if you have the time, please upload a few to your favorite bbs system....or even just post this "info-file" there. it would be keen of you. if you want to use any of the works you find on the otis directory, you'll have to check to see if permission has been granted and the stipulations of the permission (such as free copy of publication, or full address credit). you will either find this in the ".rm" file for the image or series of images...or in the "artists" directory under the artists name. if permission isn't explicitly given, then you'll have to contact the artist to ask for it. if no info is available, email me (ed@cwis.unomaha.edu), and i'll get in contact with the artist for you, or give you their contact information. when you do use permitted work, it's always courteous to let the artist know about it, perhaps even send them a free copy or some such compensation for their files. naming images? please keep the names of your files in "dos" format. that means, keep the filename (before .jpg or .gif) to eight characters or less. the way i usually do it is to use the initials of the artist, plus a three or four digit "code" for the series of images, plus the series number. thus, leonardo devinci's fifth mechanical drawing would be something like: ldmek5.gif or ldmek5.jpg or ldmech5.gif etc keeping the names under 8 characters assures that the filename will remain intact on all systems. creating image files? when creating image files, be sure to at least include your name somewhere on or below the picture. this gives people a reference in case they'd like to contact you. you may also want to include a title, address or other information you'd like people to know. hmmm?! that's about it for now. more "guidelines" will be added as needed. your input is expected. disclaimer: the otis project has no connection to the church of otis (a sumerian deity) or it's followers, be they pope, priest, or ezine administrator. we do take sacrifices and donations disclaimer: the otis project is here for the distribution of original image files. the files will go to the public at large. it's possible, as with any form of mass-media, that someone could unscrupulously use your images for financial gain. unless you've given permission for that, it's illegal. otis takes no responsibility for this. in simple terms, all rights revert to the author/artist. to leave an image on otis is to give permission for it to be viewed, copied and distributed electronically. if you don't want your images distributed all-over, don't upload them. to leave an image on otis is not giving permission to have it used in any publication or broadcast that incurs profit (this includes, but is not limited to, magazines, newsletters, clip-art software, screen-printed clothing, etc). you must give specific permission for this sort of usage. remember, the operative term is "stimulate". if you know of people that'd be interested in this sort of thing...get them involved...kick'm in the booty....offer them free food...whatever... ....e (ed@cwis.unomaha.edu) (ed@sunsite.unc.edu) ed stastny | otis project, end process, sound news and arts po bx 241113 | ftp: sunsite.unc.edu (/pub/multimedia/pictures/otis) omaha, ne 68124-1113 | 141.214.4.135 (projects/otis) ---------------------- email: ed@cwis.unomaha.edu, ed@sunsite.unc.edu 
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 does anyone know of a vl-bus video card based on the et4000 /w32 card? if so: how much will it cost, where can i get one, does it come with more than 1mb of ram, and what is the windows performance like? 
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 i'm looking for shading methods and algorithms. please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that. thanks a lot! | thomas braun, universitaet karlsruhe | | e-mail : s_braun@iravcl.ira.uka.de | | \_\_\_\_\_ \_\_\_ thomas braun | | \_ \_ \_ university karlsruhe, germany | | \_ \_\_\_ email: | | \_ \_ \_ - s_braun@iravcl.ira.uka.de | | \_ \_\_\_ - ukay@dkauni2.bitnet | 
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 our shop uses a package called cadcore - very good - to scan and subsequently vectorize original maps into digital maps. the problem is that once the raster file is loaded into the cadcore package, a header is added to the .hrf file which makes it unreadable by the supplied converter. we would like to be able to ship some of the already-altered raster images for further use on our workstations. so, here are my questions: (1) what is the hitachi format? - i need this format so i can recognize precisely what to strip out. i strongly suspect that it's a compressed format - if so, then t might not be possible for me to strip out the offending header. (2) are there any unix packages that read and recognize hrf? it would be really nice to find some sort of "hrftopbm" converter out there. ;) i've already searched some of the more well-known ftp sites which contain graphics formats documentation, with no luck. so, if you know, or knwo someone who knows - please email! thanks. 
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 i am looking for comments from people who have used/heard about photoshop for windows. is it good? how does it compare to the mac version? is there a lot of bugs (i heard the windows version needs "fine-tuning)? any comments would be greatly appreciated.. thank you. andre boisvert beaver@rot.qc.ca 
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 i am interested in a 2d/3d graphics library which will allow our design team to write graphics software for unix workstations and be as portable as possible. eventually this software will have to be moved to microsoft windows. it is my opinion that a good api with hooks to pex underneath would prove most portable. does anyone out there have any experience with figaro+ form tgs or hoops from ithaca software? i would appreciate any comments. - claye hart claye k. hart 404-894-9729 georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!ch41 internet: claye.hart@gtri.gatech.edu 
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 yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal. version 2 did it quite well, apart from a few hassles with radial fills. version 3 revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like "cannot export scodal with bitmap"- at least it does on my if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears. temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal, postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs $650 and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad jeff lyall inst.geo.&.nuc.sci.ltd lower hutt new zealand 
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 |> i'm looking for shading methods and algorithms. |> please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that. 'illumination and color in computer generated imagery' by roy hall contains c source for several famous illumination models, including bouknight, phong, blinn, whitted, and hall illumination models. if you want an introduction to shading you might look through the book 'writing a raytracer' edited by glassner. also, the book 'procedural elements for computer graphics' by rogers is a good reference. source for code in these book are available on the net i believe, you might check out nic.funet.fi or some site closer to you carrying graphics related stuff. hope this is what you were asking for. torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen "...i'm gona wave my freak flag high!" (jimi hendrix) "...and it would be okay on any other day!" (the police) 
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 |> i am working on a program to display 3d wireframe models with the user |> being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters. also, |> the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so |> that they can move around while the user is "exploring" the wireframe |> world. why don't you consider phigs in x or pex lib? 
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 i'm looking for any information on detecting and/or calculating a double point and/or cusp in a bezier curve. see: maureen stone and tony derose, "a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves", acm tog, vol 8, no 3, july 1989, pp. 147-163. i've used that reference, and found that i needed to go to their original tech report: maureen stone and tony derose, "characterizing cubic bezier curves" xerox edl-88-8, december 1988 this report can be obtained for free from: xerox corporation palo alto research center 3333 coyote hill road palo alto, california 94303 +1-415-494-4440 the tog paper was good, but this tech report had more interesting details ;-) 
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 : i've been trying to view .tga files created in povray. i have the diamond : speedstar 24 video board (not the _24x_). so far i can convert them to : jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays 8 bit color. : just want to see the darn things in real color... i have an ati ultra pro card, and have found that the easiest way to view true color images is using their windows drivers and something like winjpeg or photofinish. if anyone has a non-windows solution, i'd love to hear it! 
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 does anyone know how to convert a targa or similar 24 bit picture into a list of r g b values and then convert back to targa after doing operations on the p ixels r g b codes. ex. targa ---->000100255pixel 1 001200201pixel 2etc.... if no one can help me with this could someone explain how the 24 bit data is st ored in the targa file and also how its stored in the 8 bit targas. thanks 
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 can you please offer some recommendations? (3d graphics) there has been a fantastic 3d programmers package for some years that has been little advertised, and apparently nobody knows about, called 3d graphic tools written by mark owen of micro system options in seattle wa. i reviewed it a year or so ago and was really awed by it's capabilities. it also includes tons of code for many aspects of mac programming (including offscreen graphics). it does zbuffering, 24 bit graphics, has a database for representing graphical objects, and more. it is very well written (mpw c, think c, and hypercard) and the code is highly reusable. last time i checked the price was around $150 - well worth it. their # is (206) 868-5418. i've talked with mark and he faxed some literature, though it wasn't very helpful- just a list of routine names: _bsplinesurface, _drawstring3d... 241 names. there was a product info sheet that explained some of the package capabilities. i also found a review in april/may '92 mactutor. it does look like a good package. the current price is $295 us. 
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 sorry for the repeat of this request, but does anyone know of a good free/shareware program with which i can create ray-traces and save them as bit-mapped files? (of course if there is such a thing =) thanks in advance there are 2 books published by m&t books that come with c source code on floppies. they are: programming in 3 dimensions, 3-d graphics, ray traycing, and animation by: christopher d. watkins and larry sharp. photorealism and ray tracing in c by: christopher d. watkins, stephen b. coy, and mark finlay. i have the first book and it is a great intro to 3-d, ray tracing and animation. most of the programs are on the disk compiled and ready to run. i have only glanced at the second book but it also appears to be good. hope this helps! mark larsen markl@hunan.rastek.com "this r2 unit has a bad motivator!" - luke, star wars 
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 i am looking for a window 3.1 driver for cornerstone dualpage (cornerstone technology, inc) video card. does anybody know, that has these? is there one? thanks for any info, to~nis to~nis kelder estonian biocentre (tkelder@kask.ebc.ee) 
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 second problem: i can't find any graphics program that will open and display these files. i have a couple of image conversion programs, none mention .scf rix's files with the extension .sci and .scf are just a raw file with a 256 color palette. the first 10 bytes is a kind of header, with the name rix among 7bytes unknown stuff. the you have 768 bytes of palette info (3*256 for the colors rgb) and then you have the picture in raw format. if you dont know how to make a viewer of of this description you can get vpic it is able to read the files! 
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 printer model and specification: canon clc 500 (color laser copier) ps-ipu unit (postscript intelligent processing unit) we have recently purchased a very expensive and nice color copier/printer. we want to be able to print to it from our sgi iris network. the copier/printer has both a parallel and scsi interface. i have configured the printer with the "lp" system using the parallel interface and can print postscript files to the printer. i can also print rgb files, but these are in turn converted to postscript by an internal filter. the canon clc 500 is a publication quality printer but the quality of our postscript printouts are less than acceptable. we create the postscript files with a variaty of programs, such as showcase, xv, and tops. when we convert to postscript with tops and use the -l option to specify the halftone screen density of 98 rather than the default 40 the output is better, but still much less that acceptable. note, that we are starting with a screen image in rgb image format and translating the image into postscript. we suspect that if we could use the scsi interface we would get higher quality pictures. we have not purchased the software that drives the printer from the scsi port. to my knowledge this software is $5000 and does not come with a warranty. the management here does not want to spend this much money without some assurance that the product will work. here my questions: if anybody on the net uses this printer are you using the scsi or parallel port? what is the quality of the printouts? is there a way to create high quality postscript printouts? what is the limiting component, the postscript language or the postscript interpretor on the printer? the big question: where can i get some software to drive the scsi port for this printer? please email directly to me, i don't not read news on a regular basis. i will post a summary. thanks in advance. e-mail: scott@ncifcrf.gov ,phone #: (301) 846-5798 title: sr. systems manager/analyst 
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 for those who are interested in ray traced pictures, there is a nice example on alt.binaries.pictures.misc. the file is called poolball.gif. it shows a pooltable with... yes! ... poolballs! resolution: 1024x768, colours: 256 (only). the tga (24 bit) version is also available, but a bit big (2.4mb) to post. the picture is created with pov-ray. enjoy! __cgschot@cs.ruu.nl__ \___________________________________/ /_ gerco schot (cgschot@cs.ruu.nl) _\ 
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 does anyone have any other suggestions where the 42 came from? forty-two is six times nine. 
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 i have the need for displaying 2 1/2 d surfaces under x, using only xlib, xt and xm. does anyone know of a package, available on internet, which will be able to do the work? i am looking for a stand-alone package providing similar functions to "xprism3" available with khoros, but without the numerous libraries required for it. i want to be able to recompile it and run it on various platforms, from sgis to i486s (unix). any help will be appreciated. demetrios sapounas tel +1 (703) 663.8332 l 115, nswc fax +1 (703) 663.1939 dahlgren, va 22448-5000, usa email ds@aris.nswc.navy.mil 
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 has anyone written or seen a c library or c++ class for fixed-point math, or good articles about same? i pretty much know how to do this, but i have a few other wheels to invent at the moment... thanks! "how am i typing? call 1-818-354-7782" jack@robotics.jpl.nasa.gov jack morrison/jet propulsion lab/ms107-102 4800 oak grove dr, pasadena ca 91109 
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 i have a friend who is working on 2-d and 3-d object recognition. he is looking for references describing algorithms on the following subject areas: edge segmentation marr-hildreth sobel operator chain codes thinning - skeletonising if anybody is willing to post an algorithm that they have implemented which demonstrates any of the above topics, it would be much appreciated. please post all replies to my e-mail address. if requested i will post a summary to the newsgroup in a couple of weeks. thanks in advance for all replies eb192@city.ac.uk 
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 : currently, i use a shareware program called graphics workshop. : what kinds of things will hijaak do that these shareware programs : will not do? i also use graphic workshop and the only differences that i know of are that hijaak has screen capture capabilities and acn convert to/from a couple of more file formats (don't know specifically which one). in the april 13 issue of pc magazine they test the twelve best selling image capture/convert utilities, including hijaak. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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 why not use the pd c library for reading/writing tiff files? it took me a good 20 minutes to start using them in your own app. i certainly do use it whenever i have to do tiff, and it usually works very well. that's not my point. i'm >philosophically< opposed to it because of its complexity. this complexity has led to some programs' poor tiff writers making some very bizarre files, other programs' inability to load tiff images (though they'll save them, of course), and a general inability to interchange images between different environments despite the fact they all think they understand tiff. as the saying goes, "it's not me i'm worried about- it's all the other< assholes out there!" i've had big trouble with misuse and abuse of tiff over the years, and i chalk it all up to the immense (and unnecessary) complexity of the format. in the words of the tiff 5.0 spec, appendix g, page g-1 (capitalized emphasis mine): "the only problem with this sort of success is that tiff was designed to be powerful and flexible, at the expense of simplicity. it takes a fair amount of effort to handle all the options currently defined in this specification (probably no application does a complete job), and that is currently the only way you can be >sure< that you will be able to import any tiff image, since there are so many image-generating applications out there now." if a program (or worse all applications) can't read >every< tiff image, that means there are some it won't- some that i might have to deal with. why would i want my images to be trapped in that format? i don't and neither should anyone who agrees with my reasoning- not that anyone does, of course! :-) 
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 i have an epson hi-80 4 pen plotter forsale. it emulates an hp 7570 or 7574 - i'm not sure which. it has an option board on it that does the emulation. it has a serial interface with hardware handshake. i also have 340 pens for it as follows: 10 packs of 4 black oil based, 16 packs of 4 red,green, blue, and black pens, 22 packs of 4 aqueous black, 7 packs of 4 aqueous r,g,blue,black, 1 pack of 6 aqueous multi color pens, and 114 assorted non-packaged pens mostly colored. the plotter is used. i have tested it using the windows drivers for hp 7570 and hp 7574 and both worked fine. it accepts either a or b sized paper. (8.5 x 11 or 11x17). i figure that the plotter is worth about $300 and the pens are worth at least another $200 more.. one thing is certain, you won't need to purchase any pens for quite a while... all of the packaged pens were sealed so they are all still fresh. the rest were capped and seem to function as well. i'd be willing to sell the pens seperate if anyone is interested in just them. i'm selling it because i got a hp laserjet and i don't need color. i'd like $350 or best offer... chert pellett - chert@dungeon.cirr.com || chert@dungeon.lonestar.org panic: the cat is nibbling on the power cord! 
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 : : 42 is 101010 binary, and who would forget that its the : : answer to the question of "life, the universe, and everything else." : : of course the question has not yet been discovered... : but it was discovered (sort of). the question was "what is 7 times 8?" [ read on and there's a special prize at the bottom. amaze your friends and gain respect from your peers that you can carry on so long about the number 42. ] the original question was "what is the meaning of life, the universe, and and everything." the answer generated by deep thought (the 2nd largest computer ever created) was 42. deep thought realized that to understand the answer, one must really know what the question is. unfortunately, he didn't. but he was able to help build the largest computer (named earth) which could figure out the real question. (i know this is background knowledge for everyone here... just bear with me a sec... :) when arthur pulled the scrabble tiles out of the bag, he spelled out "what is nine times six?" (or the like). however, it is not clear that the monkey-man had the right question in his brain, especially since it was that lady in the diner (which was vaporized moments later) that came up with the answer to how everyone could get along. on the other hand, marvin said he saw the answer in dent's brain, so lets presume it's well, nine times six ***is*** forty-two!!! ...in base 13. chew on that for awhile... :) chris russell custom software, networks, case tools, and consulting adaptive solutions sun sparc, sgi iris, hp apollo, macintosh, & pc internet: crussell@netcom.com gte: 909/861-4048 u.s. mail: p.o. box 5424 diamond bar, ca 91675-7424 
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 there is another useful method based on least sqyares estimation of the sphere equation parameters. the points (x,y,z) on a spherical surface with radius r and center (a,b,c) can be written as (x-a)^2 + (y-b)^2 + (z-c)^2 = r^2 this equation can be rewritten into the following form: 2ax + 2by + 2cz + r^2 - a^2 - b^2 -c^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 approximate the left hand part by f(x,y,z) = p1.x + p2.x + p3.z + p4.1 for all datapoints, i.c. 4, determine the 4 parameters p1..p4 which minimise the average error |f(x,y,z) - x^2 - y^2 - z^2|^2. in 'numerical recipes in c' can be found algorithms to solve these parameters. the best fitting sphere will have - center (a,b,c) = (p1/2, p2/2, p3/2) - radius r = sqrt(p4 + a.a + b.b + c.c). so, at last, will this solve you sphere estination problem, at least for the most situations i think ?. quick van rijt, rytg7@fel.tno.nl 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38639">
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 can anyone tell me anything about the disney animation software package? note the followup line (this is not for me but for a colleague). 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38641">
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 : are there significant differences between v2.01 and v2.00 ? : thank you for helping no. as i recall, the only differences are in the 3ds.set parameters - some of the defaults have changed slightly. i'll look when i get home and let you know, but there isn't enough to actually warrant upgrading. 
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 : >i've got the 6.0 spec (obviously since i quoted it in my last posting). : >my gripe about tiff is that it's far too complicated and nearly : >infinitely easier to write than to read,... : why not use the pd c library for reading/writing tiff files? it took me a : good 20 minutes to start using them in your own app. : martin what is the name of this pd c library for tiff. i'd like to get a copy of it, but i can't archie for something i don't have the filename for. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38644">
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 i need the file format for cc:mail file formats - it seems to be pcx-based, but with a twist: only the first page of a multi-page fax will come out readable. the other pages disappear. the format seems to be 'proprietary'. anybody got any clues? i have to give my email faxes to my secretary in order to get 'em unscrambled. i want a filter from cc:mail to .p[nb]m. come to think of it, p[nb]m to cc:mail would be nice too. tonyo@master.cna.tek.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38646">
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 i am looking for some morphing programs for dec's or pc's. i looked for a program called dmorph using archie but could not find it. i found a progrmam call morpho but it only did grayscale images. does anyone know where i should look? 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38647">
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 i have a researcher who collecting electical impulses from the human heart through a complex analog to digital system he has designed and inputting this information into his eisa bus hp vectra computer running dos and the phar lap dos extender. he want to purchase a very high-performance video card for 3-d modeling. he is aware of a company called matrox but he is concerned about getting married to a company and their video routine library. he would hope some more flexibility: to choose between several card manufacturers with a standard video driver. he would like to write more generic code- code that could be easily moved to other cards or computer operating systems in the future. is there any hope? any information would be greatly appreciated- please, if possible, respond directly to internet mail to raymaker@bcm.tmc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38649">
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 i am looking for some information about 3d animation stations that are currently on the market. the price of the station can be from 5k-20k, but no more than $20,000.00. type of workstation doesnt matter (pc, mac, sgi etc..) . if you use or have bought/looked at one or can suggest your dream machine, then please mail me your configurations. i need the following. 1. type of station (pc, mac etc.. ) 2. expandibilty of the machine. 3. software that can run on it 4. vtr controller and/or vtr deck model/name. 5. vendors names and numbers. thanks in advance. ken eyler eylerken@u.washington.edu the evergreen state college 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38653">
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 i have a small program to extract a 640x480 image from a vga 16 color screen, and store that image in a tiff file. i need to insert the image into a sales brochure, which i then need printed in 4 color. on a mac, i would use photoshop to separate the image into 5 eps files, and then pull it into quark express, then get it printed to film on a lintronix at a service bureau. however, i don't have a mac, but i do have windows. what would i need to do this type of operation in the windows 3.1 environment? are there any separation programs available on the net? is there a good page layout program that i should look into? thanks in advance. shmuel einstein, shmuel@einstein.com shmuel einstein & associates, inc. 9100 wilshire blvd, suite 235 e beverly hills, ca 90212 310/273-8971 fax 310/273-8872 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38654">
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 is there a precompiled version of hp2xx for dos out there - prefereably for 386/486? 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38657">
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 sorry for the repeat of this request, but does anyone know of a good free/shareware program with which i can create ray-traces and save them as bit-mapped files? (of course if there is such a thing =) thanks in advance ppppp ooooo v v persistance of vision raytracer. p p o o v v p p o o v v ppppp o o v v p o o v v p o o v v p ooooo v available on archie and wuarchive in graphics type directories. ps it's freeware. _/_/_/ _/ kai howells. _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ kai_h@postoffice.utas.edu.au _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ 35 mortimer ave _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ new town tas 7008 _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ph. within australia 002 286 110 _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ elsewhere: +61 02 286 110 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38658">
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 sigkids call for participation sigkids research showcase is where learning is hip. pushing the edge in education, computer graphics, and new technologies, the sigkids research showcase will provide siggraph's attendees with the latest in applying computer technology to form state of the art educational experiences. so hop to it! submit any works which converge the disciplines of education and computer technology. possible categories and domains include but are not limited to: -interactive/stand-alone applications -self-run demonstrations and tutorials -museum installations -groupware/collaborative systems -virtual reality -scientific visualization -interactive art deadlines: may 21, 1993 submissions due submit to: diane schwartz siggraph '93 sigkids committee c/o the institute for the learning sciences 1890 maple avenue, suite 150 evanston, illinois 60201 fax: 708.491.5258 schwartz@ils.nwu.edu electronic submission form: schwartz@ils.nwu.edu how to submit: 1. fill out the 'permission to use' form (see page 19 of the siggraph '93 call for participation or send email to schwartz@ils.nwu.edu to have one faxed to you.) 2. fill out the sigkids '93 research showcase submission form (below). 3. send an abstract/description of the submission (approximately 100 words) in one of the following ways: a. send 3 hard copies to diane schwartz (via surface mail) at the above b. fax 1 copy to diane schwartz at (708)491-5258 c. email 1 copy to diane schwartz at schwartz@ils.nwu.edu 4. if it is necessary to explain the project, additional support material such as videotapes and slides that will assist the selection committee in reaching a decision are highly reccommended. fax and email submissions are acceptable. please send all of your submission material in the same form (either surface mail, email, or fax. the only exception to this should be the additional support material which should only be sent via surface mail). note: due to our very limited budget, if the submitter chooses to have a dedicated machine for their work, they will have to pay rental fees for the hardware personally. note: contributors outside for the united states should be aware of customs and carrier delays and send submissions early. acm siggraph '93 sigkids research showcase entry form a copy of this form must accompany each proposal you submit. send sigkids research showcase entries to: diane schwartz siggraph '93 sigkids committee c/o the institute for the learning sciences 1890 maple avenue, suite 150 evanston, illinois 60201 fax: 708.491.5258 schwartz@ils.nwu.edu please print legibly. contact information: state_____________postal code______________country_________________ daytime phone_____________________evening phone____________________ additional information: title or theme of piece__________________________________ participant(s') name(s)___________________________________ collaborator(s') name(s)__________________________________ hardware (platform and periferals): 1. what is needed:_____________________________________________________________ 2. supplied by participant: ___ yes ___ no 3. dedicated machine? ___ yes ___ no note: due to our very limited budget the participant must pay the rental fees for any dedicated hardware. ___need assistance (specify)____________________________________________________ statement - please tell us the significance of the work. (less than 50 words) medium: ___other (describe - i.e. virtual reality, virtual sculpture, interactive multimedia installation, etc.)__________________________________________________ special requirements: permission to use visual and audio: in the event that materials used in my acm siggraph'93 sigkids research showcase entry contain the work of other individuals or organizations (including any copyrighted musical compositions or excerpts thereof), i understand that it is my responsibility to secure any necessary permissions and/or liscenses. ___yes ___no my piece contains images, audio, or video components. if yes: ___yes ___no i have the necessary rights and/or permissions use the images, audio, or video components in conference presentation release: by signing this form, i grant siggraph'93 permission to consider my piece for the sigkids research showcase. i maintain the copyright to my work and will receive full credit wherever this work is used. conference promotional material: i grant acm siggraph the right to use my slides for conference and organization publicity, both now and in the future. this includes usage on posters, brochures, catalogs, promotional items, or media broadcast. in exchange, siggraph provides full author/artist credit information on all promotional material. ___yes ___no i grant acm siggraph permission to use slides of my work for conference and organization publicity. acm siggraph makes every attempt to respect and protect intellectual property rights of people and organizations preparing material for siggraph conferences. this entry form explains the uses siggraph will make of the material and requires you to acknowledge that you have permission to use this material. this may involve seeking clearance from your employer or from others who have loaned you material, such as videotapes and slides. this form helps prevent situations whereby siggraph'93 presentations include material without permission that might lead to complaints or even legal action. this form also asks you to grant siggraph the right to distribute your work, while you maintain the copyright. slide sets and catalogs are publications for which you grant siggraph nonexclusive worldwide distribution rights. siggraph marks each item in these publications with a proper copyright notice, which informs viewers that these items may not be copied, reproduced, broadcast, or used for commercial purposes without the explicit permission of the indivicual copyright owners. in addition, this form asks if acm siggraph may use the your materials for conference and organizational promotional material in exchange for full author/artist credit information. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38659">
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 hi folks, does anyone have a copy of playmation they'd be willing to sell me. i'd love to try it out, but not for the retail $$$. if you have moved onto something bigger (3ds) or better (imagine), i'd love to buy your table scraps. if noone is selling, can anyone recommend a place to buy playmation mail-order for cheap? thanks in advance, | mark marino | omar@osf.org | uunet!osf!omar | | open software foundation | 11 cambridge center | cambridge, ma 02142 | |_____________________________________________________________________________| 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38660">
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 i saw this subject and all i could think of was a parade at wrigley field in chicago. or maybe it's just me. marc cooper - graphics programmer - sverdrup tech.| "as a child, i was an fsmarc@lerc.nasa.gov | imaginary playmate." nasa lewis research center ms 5-11 | 21000 brookpark dr. | tom robbins cleveland, oh 44135 (216) 433-8898 | even cowgirls get the blues disclaimer: "it's mine! all mine!" -d. duck 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38661">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38661" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 hi, i'm just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic package that outputs .pov files. any help would be appreciated. later'ish | ___ ___ | "i didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, |/ \/ \| you can't prove anything." _ccc_c_#_|__#_ccc_c_____chumphre@comp.vuw.ac.nz_______________________________ 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38662">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38662" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 |> let's be serious... i'm working on a radiosity package, written in c++. |> i would like to make it public domain. i'll announce it in c.g. the minute |> i finished it. |> that were the good news. the bad news: it'll take another 2 months (at least) |> to finish it. please note that there are some radiosity packages in my resource listing (under the subject 3: ftp list) nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 usenet editor of comp.graphics resource listing and soc.culture.greece faq ntua/ua acm student chapter chair - we're organizing a small conference in comp. graphics, call if you're interested to participate. nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38663">
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 hello, i know that this has been discussed before. but at the time i didn't need to teselate a sphere. so if any kind soul has the code or the alg, that was finally decided upon as the best (as i recall it was a nice, iterative subdivision meathod), i would be very thomas deweese deweeset@rdrc.rpi.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38666">
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<context>
 there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive. the file is in the msdos/graphics directory and is called "grfwk61t.zip." this program should od everthing you need. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38667">
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 |> hello netters! |> i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland. i've looked though |> the last faq for comp.graphics but i didn't find my answer. thus the post. |> i'll keep it short. |> question: how do i display any raster files, gif files, iff or tiff images |> that i have on my "root window" or background? i have a sun ipc, openwindows |> 3.0, sun os 4.1.3 if that helps any. |> i've compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have |> done as a background/tile. thanks for any help or information that you |> provide. have a good day. |> scott fleming |> osi |> p.s. |> kudo's to the people who provided pov, its great! i'm not so sure if this is helpful, but i usually use xv v2.21. i use sun ipcs and ipxs, and it works fine. it can display in a good number of ways.(root being one of them) it's also possible to have xv put up a background automatically at login. hope this helps. jason weiler <weilej@rpi.edu> btw xv v2.21 is on anonymous ftp somewhere. (archie fer it!) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38669">
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 pascal perret, in article <1993apr21.125750.263@eicn.etna.ch>, wrote site : omnigate.clarkson.edu aliases : grape.ecs.clarkson.edu number : 128.153.4.2 /pub/msdos/djgpp/pub it's xv221.zip (?) i think... certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin... he write about dv/x what is it ?????? could someone answer ???? funny thing, the internet: i have no idea what xv221 might be - except that it might be something to do with x-windows on pcs (? if you know, and have used it, and think that it is good, email me. [ryanph@mrl.dsto.gov.au]). dv/x is a common abbreviation for quarterdeck corporation's desqview/x i have not used dv/x yet, but reading the blurbs that quarterdeck sent me, it sounds pretty great: * allows multiple dos machines - the way that os/2 does, but without requiring 10 mb of ram to get os/2 going * pre-emptive multi-tasking * network computing - a proper x-windows client/server application - this means that dos program can be used on other x-windows computers on your network, and that x-windows programs can be used on your dv/x computer * although it is not a version of unix, it effectively has many of unix's features, and mostly you will be able to compile unix-type programs using the djgpp or gnu c compilers they advertise regularly in all of the major computing and programming magazines. they also have internet support online (support@qdeck.com). * pascal perret | perret@eicn.etna.ch * hope that this helps anyone wanting to know. phil ryan melbourne, australia 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38670">
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 hi, this is my first msg to the net (actually the 3rd copy of it, dam*ed vi!!). look for the new vpic6.0, it comes with updated vesa 1.2 drivers for almost every known card. the vesa level is 1.2, and my tseng4000 24-bit has a nice affair with the driver. hope it is useful!! 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38672">
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 |> >i am looking for comments from people who have used/heard about photoshop |> >for windows. is it good? how does it compare to the mac version? is there |> >a lot of bugs (i heard the windows version needs "fine-tuning)? |> >any comments would be greatly appreciated.. |> >thank you. |> >andre boisvert |> >beaver@rot.qc.ca |> an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info |> world this week, said that the windows version was considerably slower |> than the mac. a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler |> and photoshop for windows. david i don't know about that...i've used photoshop 2.5 on both a 486dx-50 and a quadra 950...i'd say they are roughly equal. if anything the 486 was faster. both systems were running in 24 bit color and had the same amount of ram (16 megs) i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38673">
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 |> : are there significant differences between v2.01 and v2.00 ? |> : thank you for helping |> no. as i recall, the only differences are in the 3ds.set parameters - some |> of the defaults have changed slightly. i'll look when i get home and let |> you know, but there isn't enough to actually warrant upgrading. |> douginoz wrong...the major improvements for 2.01 and 2.01a are in the use of ipas routines for 3d studio. they have increased in speed anywhere from 30-200% depending on which ones you use. all the yost group ipas routines that you can buy separate from the 3d studio package require the use of 2.01 or 2.01a. they are too slow with 2.00. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38674">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38674" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hallo pov-renderers ! i've got a bocax3 card. now i try to get pov displaying true colors while rendering. i've tried most of the options and univesa-driver but what happens isn't correct. can anybody help me ? 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38677">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38677" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 |> |> has anyone got multiverse to work ? |> |> i have built it on 486 svr4, mips svr4s and sun sparcstation. |> |> there seems to be many bugs in it. the 'dogfight' and 'dactyl' simply do nothing |> |> (after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules - one needed |> |> setting to static - else the client core-dumped) |> |> steve |> |> extn 5543, sts@mfltd.co.uk, !uunet!mfocus!sts |> |> +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ micro focus |> |> | just like pariah, i have no name, | rm -rf * | 26 west street |> |> | living in a blaze of obscurity, | "rum ruff splat" | newbury |> |> | need courage to survive the day. | | berkshire |> |> +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ england |> |> (a)bort (r)etry (i)nfluence with large hammer |> i built it on a rs6000 (my only motif machine) works fine. i added some objects |> into dogfight so i could get used to flying. this was very easy. |> all in all cool!. |> brian the rs6000 compiler is so forgiving, i think that if you mixed cobol & pascal the c compiler still wouldn't complain. :-) extn 5543, sts@mfltd.co.uk, !uunet!mfocus!sts +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ micro focus | just like pariah, i have no name, | rm -rf * | 26 west street | living in a blaze of obscurity, | "rum ruff splat" | newbury | need courage to survive the day. | | berkshire +-----------------------------------+------------------------+ england (a)bort (r)etry (i)nfluence with large hammer 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38679">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38679" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 |> could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be |> used to manipulate postscript files.i am specifically interested in |> drawing lines, boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots. |> i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it's features. however |> it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the |> programme.is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format? |> any help would be greatly appreciated. |> nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator? there are a few unix versions for it available, depending on your platform. i know of two unix versions: one for mach (next) and for irix (sgi). there may be others, such as for sun sparcstation, but i don't know for sure. charles boesel @ diablo creative | if pro = for and con = against cboesel@diablo.uu.holonet.net | then what's the opposite of progress? +1.510.980.1958(pager) | what else, congress. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38681">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38681" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 hi there, is there anybody who know a polygon_reduction algorithm for marching cube surfaces. e.g. the algirithm of schroeder, siggraph'92. for any hints, hugs and kisses. (o o) ___________________________________________ooo__(-)__ooo_____________ |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|_| |_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| | erwin keeve | adress: peter-welter-platz 2 | | | w-5000 cologne 1, germany | | dept. of computergraphics & | phone: +49-221-20189-132 (-192) | | computeranimation | fax: +49-221-20189-17 | | academy of media arts cologne | email: keeve@khm.uni-koeln.de | |_______________________________|_____________________________________| 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38683">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38683" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 |> hi, i'm just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic |> package that outputs .pov files. any help would be appreciated. |> thanks. a very good modeling package i found is `irit' (look for irit.tar.z). however there is no converter from it's format to pov format. i postet a request for such a converter in this group but got no response, so i'm considering to write such a program myself. sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f. praktische informatik 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38688">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38688" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 please ineed information about desk top publishe- post graduate courses and if possible email address or normal mail. thanks in advance 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38689">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38689" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i bought the diamond stealth 24 a few months ago. it seems to be a great card especially with my multimedia presentations. it runs graphics and animation as well as some near full motion video very well. the only thing i can tell that it lacks is speed above 256 colors. its qualit in between 256 and 16.7 million collors un unreal but you definitly compromise speed. it seems to be a great card for graphics and it comes with some great software, but im not so sure about the excelerator part. i used to own a paridise and it doesnt seem to be much faster than that. one thing i do like is that it loads its own vesa driver from rom at startup, (i think) because i have never had to load it for links386 or any other programs that require special vesa drivers at gromi a16pd hintmatt@ba.ba.isu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38691">
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<context>
 i'm posting this for a friend: i have an immediate need for a polygon-based hidden-line removal program. i can deal with any input/output format, but i need to be able to do perspective views in any orientation and range. is there a public-domain hidden-line program around? it seems like there should be, but i have not been able to locate one. email replies and i will summarize. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38693">
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 the real problem w/ the stealth from what i've heard is that diamond won't tell anyone how to program their proprietary clock stuff, so x under linux and 386bsd won't run.... patrick bridges patrick@erc.msstate.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38694">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38694" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 |> >i am looking for comments from people who have used/heard about photoshop |> >for windows. is it good? how does it compare to the mac version? is there |> >a lot of bugs (i heard the windows version needs "fine-tuning)? |> >any comments would be greatly appreciated.. |> >thank you. |> >andre boisvert |> >beaver@rot.qc.ca |> an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info |> world this week, said that the windows version was considerably slower |> than the mac. a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler |> and photoshop for windows. david i don't know about that...i've used photoshop 2.5 on both a 486dx-50 and a quadra 950...i'd say they are roughly equal. if anything the 486 was faster. both systems were running in 24 bit color and had the same amount of ram (16 megs) i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators. i went back and looked at the review again. they claim there were significant differences in manipulating a 27 meg test file, but with smaller files, the two platforms were the about the same. david david farley the university of chicago library 312 702-3426 1100 east 57th street, jrl-210 dgf1@midway.uchicago.edu chicago, illinois 60637 
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 i've been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto-trace >exactly< what i see on my screen. but it misses the edges of templates by as many as 6 pixels or more - resulting in images that are useless - i need exact tracing, not approximate. i've tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn't help. any suggestions? charles boesel @ diablo creative | if pro = for and con = against cboesel@diablo.uu.holonet.net | then what's the opposite of progress? +1.510.980.1958(pager) | what else, congress. i've had exactly the same problems in aldus freehand. i think autotracing is one of those "features" that barely works, but everybody feels compelled to throw it in because the other guys are doing it. :) david farley the university of chicago library 312 702-3426 1100 east 57th street, jrl-210 dgf1@midway.uchicago.edu chicago, illinois 60637 
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 |> hi netters, |> i am currently doing some investigations on "developable surface". |> can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources |> which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface? |> thanks for your help! |> abel |> h8902939@hkuxa.hku.hk a developable surface is s.t. you can lay it (or roll it) flat on the plane (it may require you to give it a "cut" though...) e.g., a cylinder, a cone, a plane (of course!) or any surface or patch having vanishing gaussian (intrinsic) curvature (i.e., with singular hessian, the matrix of 2nd derivatives for an adequate coordinate patch) are "developable". in more technical words, a developable surface is "locally isometric to a plane" at all points. think also of the sphere (or the earth) which in a non-developable: whatever way(s) you cut it, you will not be able to lay flat any pieces of it... (its intrinsic curvature is nowhere vanishing). for more details on this look at any book on differential geometry which treats surfaces (2d manifolds); e.g., m. do carmo's book: @book{carmo76differential, author = {do carmo, manfredo p.}, title = {differential geometry of curves and surfaces}, year = 1976, publisher = {prentice-hall}, note = {503 pages.}} enjoy! frederic leymarie -- leyfre@mcrcim.mcgill.edu mcgill university, electrical eng. dept., mcrcim, | tel.: (514) 398-8236 3480 university st., montreal, qc, canada, h3a 2a7. | fax: (514) 398-7348 
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 i'm working upon a game using an isometric perspective, similar to that used in populous. basically, you look into a room that looks similar to the following: xxxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx 2 xxxx 1 xxxx x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx o xxxx x xxxx 3 /|\ xxxx xxxx /~\ xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx the good thing about this perspective is that you can look and move around in three dimensions and still maintain your peripheral vision. [*] since your viewpoint is always the same, the routines can be hard-coded for a particular vantage. in my case, wall two's rising edge has a slope of 1/4. (i'm also using mode x, 320x240). i've run into two problems; i'm sure that other readers have tried this before, and have perhaps formulated their own opinions: 1) the routines for drawing walls 1 & 2 were trivial, but when i ran a packed->planar image through them, i was dismayed by the "jaggies." i'm now considered some anti-aliasing routines (speed is not really necessary). is it worth the effort to have the artist draw the wall already skewed, thus being assured of nice image, or is this too much of a burden? 2) wall 3 presents a problem; the algorithm i used tends to overly distort the original. i tried to decide on paper what pixels go where, and failed. has anyone come up with method for mapping a planar to crosswise sheared currently i take: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 and produce: 1 2 3 4 33 34 35 36 17 18 19 20 5 6 7 8 49 50 51 52 37 38 39 40 21 22 23 24 9 10 11 12 53 54 55 56 41 42 43 44 25 26 27 28 13 14 15 16 57 58 59 60 45 46 47 48 29 30 31 32 61 62 63 64 line 1 follows the slope. line 2 is directly under line 1. line 3 moves up a line and left 4 pixels. line 4 is under line 3. this fills the shape exactly without any unfilled pixels. but it causes distortions. has anyone come up with a better way? perhaps it is necessary to simply draw the original bitmap already skewed? are there any other particularly sticky problems with this perspective? i was planning on having hidden plane removal by using z-buffering. locations are stored in (x,y,z) form. [*] for those of you who noticed, the top lines of wall 2 (and wall 1) *are* parallel with its bottom lines. this is why there appears to be an optical illusion (ie. it appears to be either the inside or outside of a cube, depending on your mood). there are no vanishing points. this simplifies the drawing code for objects (which don't have to change size as they move about in the room). i've decided that this approximation is alright, since small displacements at a large enough distance cause very little change in the apparent size of an object in a real perspective drawing. hopefully the "context" of the picture (ie. chairs on the floor, torches hanging on the walls) will dispell any visual ambiguity. thanks in advance for any help. till next time, \o/ \o/ v \o/ v email:pinky@tamu.edu <> sam inala <> v 
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 i am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces. the board is marble. unfortunately black won't work very well for the one side. anybody with ideas for nice surfaces? how about brass or silver? i've seen real chessboards that use that material. where should i post the finished chessboard? right here is as good a place as any. can't wait to see it. i use the pov raytracer - is it compatible enough for your chessboard? "i don't know if you've got the whole picture or not, but it doesn't seem like he's running on all thrusters!" -- leonard mccoy "a guess? you, spock? that's extraordinary!" -- james t. kirk brian smith (besmith@mosaic.uncc.edu) 
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 |> i have seen several ray-traced scenes (from mtv or was it |> rayshade??) with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image. |> the fonts/chars had color, depth and even textures associated with |> them. now i was wondering, is it possible to do the same in pov?? hi noel, i've made some attempts to write a converter that reads adobe type 1 fonts, triangulates them, bevelizes them and extrudes them to result in a generic 3d object which could be used with pov f.i. the problem i'm currently stuck on is that theres no algorithm which triangulates any arbitrary polygonal shape. delaunay seems to be limited to convex hulls. constrained delaunay may be okay, but i have no code example of how to do it. another way to do the bartman may be - a selfmade variation of this, using heightfields. create a b/w picture (big) of the text you need, f.i. using a postscript previewer. then, use this as a heightfield. if it is white on black, the heightfield is exactly the images white parts (it's still open on the backside). to close it, mirror it and compound it with the original. example: object { union { height_field { gif "abp2.gif" } height_field { gif "abp2.gif" scale <1 -1 1>} texture { translate <-0.5 0 -0.5> //center rotate <-90 0 0> // rotate upwards scale <10 5 100> // scale bigger and thicker translate <0 2 0> // final placement abp2.gif is a gif of arbitrary size containing "abp" black on white in times-roman 256 points. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 anyway, still with 15mhz, you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games (read psygnosis). speaking of psygnosis, they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd-i. the following was recently posted in a message in the cd-i section of the multimedia forum. "seventh guest has been licensed by virgin games to philips interactive media international for worldwide cd-i rights. were also licensed to p.i.m.i. litil divil from gremlin graphics (uk) and microcosm from psygnosis (uk). those three titles will be adapted on cd-i using the full potential of the fmv cartridge, meaning, using the additional memory as well as the motion video capabilities. those titles have been negociated in europe but will be available worldwide. also, lemmings 1 & 2 have been licensed from psygnosis, as well as striker soccer from rage (uk)." i don't know when these titles will be available or when work on them even started (so don't expect your cd-i retailer to have them yet). there was also some mention of future nintendo cd-i games in an issue of the uk magazine ert - mario hotel was mentioned as having 75 levels. [although i work for philips, i don't work on cd-i or multimedia. the above info is just provided in good faith from what i've read and does not represent any statement from philips] mark samson: information technology group, philips research laboratories, cross oak lane, redhill, surrey rh1 5ha tel(my ext): 0293 815387 tel(labs): 0293 785544 telex: 877261 fax: 0293 776495 email:- seri: samson@prlhp0 unix: samson@prl.philips.co.uk binary files: packages@prlhp0 
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 i've got an old demo disk that i need to view. it was made using rix softworks. the files on the two diskette set end with: .scf the demo was vga resolution (256 colors), but i don't know the spatial according to my colorix manual .scf files are 640x480x256 first problem: when i try to run the demo, the screen has two black bars that cut across (horizontally) the screen, in the top third and bottom third of the screen. the bars are about 1-inch wide. other than this, the demo (the animation part) seems to be running fine. second problem: i can't find any graphics program that will open and display these files. i have a couple of image conversion programs, none mention .scf you may try vpic, i think it handles the 256 color rix files ok.. rob sherry sherry@a.cs.okstate.edu 
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 as i understand it, the difference between 3d studio 2.00 and 2.01 is mainly in the ipas interface, along with a few small bug fixes. the ipas code runs a lot faster in the newest version. | chris johnston (216) 433-5029 | | materials engineer (216) 433-5033 | | nasa lewis research center internet: chris@sarah.lerc.nasa.gov | | 21000 brookpark rd ms 105-1 | | cleveland, oh 4413 usa resistance is futile! | 
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 i am looking for comments from people who have used/heard about photoshop for windows. is it good? how does it compare to the mac version? is there a lot of bugs (i heard the windows version needs "fine-tuning)? also photoshopii is out soon, has anyone got a date and any cofmments? | andrew leahy | aleahy@cch.coventry.ac.uk | odd frog | "what a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! and yet to me what is the quintessence if dust? man delights not me....... " shakespeare, hamlet 
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 |> hi ... recently i found xv for ms-dos in a subdirectory of gnu-cc (gnuish). i |> use frequently xv on a sun spark station 1 and i never had problems, but when i |> start it on my computer with -h option, it display the help menu and when i |> start it with a gif-file my hard disk turns 2 or 3 seconds and the prompt come |> back. |> my computer is a little 386/25 with copro, 4 mega rams, tseng 4000 (1m) running |> ms-dos 5.0 with himem.sys and no emm386.sys. i had the go32.exe too... but no |> driver who run with it. |> do somenone know the solution to run xv ??? any help would be apprecied.. you probably need an x server running on top of ms dos. i use desqview/x but any ms-dos x server should do. xx x technical documentation is writing 90% of the words xx x for 10% of the features that only 1% of the customers xx x actually use. xx x ------------------------------------------------------- a pc to xx x i don't have opinions, i have factual interpretations... the power xx x -me of x xx --------------------------------------------------------- x xx ...uunet!rutgers!mcdhup!inferno!tom can be found at x xx periphonics corporation x xx 4000 veterans memorial highway bohemia, ny 11716 x xx ---------------------------------------------------- x xx they pay me to write, not express their opinions... 
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 this seems to be a simple problem but i just cannot solve it. i wrote a c program to draw some polygons on the screen, and i want to print it on my printer. so, i press "print-screen" on the keyboard. the problem is the printer just print out some ascii characters. is there any other way to print the screen without using "print-screen"???? please help! 
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 is there an ftp archive for united states geological services (usgs) terrain data? if so, where? charles boesel @ diablo creative | if pro = for and con = against cboesel@diablo.uu.holonet.net | then what's the opposite of progress? +1.510.980.1958(pager) | what else, congress. 
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 this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38719">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38719" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 does anybody out there have or know how to calculate the rgb values required to set the 256 color vga palette so that the colors from 0..255 will give 256 colors of the rainbow ie red, orange, yellow, etc. any help would be appreciated. please email to eeerik@cc.newcastle.edu.au erik de castro lopo, dept. electrical & computer eng., uni. of newcastle, 
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 could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins' two books: o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book? i have an 80386 running sco unix (x11r4) on my desktop, a sun iv/360 in my lab, and access to a variety of other systems (alliant fx/2800, cray y/mp) on the network. mostly, we would like to do 3d modeling/visualization of rat, rabbit, monkey, and human brain structure. thanks, aj alexander-james annala principal investigator neuroscience image analysis network hedco neuroscience building, fifth floor university of southern california university park los angeles, ca 90089-2520 
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 moscow scientific inductrial association "spectrum" offer videoscan vision system for pc/at,wich include software and set of for support videoscan family program kit was developed. kit includes more then 200 different functions for image processing. kit works in the interactive regime, and has include help for non professional users. there are next possibility: - input frame by any board of videoscan family; - read - white image to - from disk; - print image on the printer; - makes arithmetic with 2 frames; - filter image; - work with gistogramme; - edit image. - include users exe modules. controller vs9 the function of vs-9 controller is to load tv-images into pc/at. vs-9 controller allows one to load a fragment of the tv-frame from a field of 724x600 pixels. the clock rate is 14,7 mhz when loading an image with 512 pixel in the line and 7,4 mhz when loading a 256 pixels image. this provides the equal pixel size of input image in both horizontal and vertical directions. the number of gray levels in any input modes is 256. video signal capture time - 2.5s. controller vs52 the purpose of the controller is to enter the tv images into a ibm pc at or any other machine of that type. the controller was created on the base of modern elements, including user programmable gate arrays. the controller allows to digitize a input signal with different resolutions. its flexible architecture makes possible to change technical parameters. instead of tv signal one can process any other analog signal (including signals from slow-speed scanning devices). the controller has the following technical characteristics: - memory volume - from 256 k to 2 mb ; - resolution when working with standard video signal - from 64x64 to 1024x512 pixels ; - resolution when working in slow input regime - up to 2048x1024 pixels; - video signal capture time - 40 ms. - maximum size of a screen when memory volume is 2mb - 2048x1024 pixels ; - number of gray level - 256 ; - clock rate for input - up to 30 mhz ; - 4 input video multiplexer ; - input/output lookup table (lut); - possibility to realize "scroll" and "zoom"; - 8 lines for external synchronization (an input using external controlling signal) ; - electronic adjustment of black and white reference for analog - digital converter; - possibility output image to the color rgb monitor. one can change all listed above functions and parameters of the controller by reprogramming it. image processor vs100 image processor vs100 allows to digitize and process tv signal in real time. it is possible digitize tv signal with 512*512*8 resolution and realize arithmetic and logic operation with two images. processor was created on the base of modern elements including user programmable gate arrays and designed as a board for pc. memory volume allows write to the 256 frames with 512*512*8 format. it is possible to accumulate until 16 images. the processor has the following technical characteristics: - memory volume to 64 mb; - number of the gray level - 256; - 4 input video multiplexer; - input/output lookup table; - electronic adjustment for black and white adc reference; - image size from 256*256 to 8192*8192; - possibility color and black / white output; - possibility input from slow-scan video sources. 
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 we have been shipping for over one year the adobe display postscript (dps) on silicon graphics workstations, file servers, and supercomputers. the adobe illustrator 3.5 for silicon graphics machines was released last february. adobe and sgi announced last october that photoshop will be available on sgi systems in 1993. initial release will support 24-bit color graphics. ivan bach, ib@sgi.com disclaimer: i do not speak for my employer. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38733">
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 is there an ftp archive for united states geological services (usgs) terrain data? if so, where? point your gopher client at merlot.welch.jhu.edu and select the following directories: --> 13. search and retrieve software/ --> 8. search and retrieve graphics software and data/ and you'll see - --> 1. graphics online bibliography (acm siggraph)/ 2. graphics software and data archives (ftp sites)/ 3. search all graphics information <?> 4. search comp.graphics faq <?> 5. search graphics resources (software and data) <?> 6. search pictures utilities faq <?> 1. graphics online bibliography (acm siggraph)/ searches and archives of bibliographic database that covers graphics literature for over a hundred years (served by a gopher hole in austria). 2. graphics software and data archives (ftp sites)/ has links to over 70 sites around the world which have software and/or data for computer graphics. this can be used on its own or as a companion to the searches found in this directory which will point you toward software and data at various places. 3. search all graphics information <?> 4. search comp.graphics faq <?> 5. search graphics resources (software and data) <?> 6. search pictures utilities faq <?> these searches contain a wealth of information about computer graphics, data, software, techniques etc... 3. search all graphics information <?> will simply search all of the information contained in searches 4, 5, and 6. 4. search comp.graphics faq <?> lets you search the faq (frequently asked questions) from the comp.graphics newsgroup compiled by john grieggs at the jpl. 5. search graphics resources (software and data) <?> lets you search the grpahics resource listing of software and data provided by nick fotis at the national technical univ. of athens. 6. search pictures utilities faq <?> lets you search the faq (frequently asked questions) from the alt.binaries.pixutils newsgroup compiled by jim howard at cadence. select: --> 3. search all graphics information <?> and search for: and you'll find out some information about usgs data availability. now select: --> 2. graphics software and data archives (ftp sites)/ and you might find the following interesting: --> 12. cartographic data - usgs data (xerox)/ --> 42. mapgen/plotgen and more (usgs)/ --> 68. usgs weekly seismicity reports (including maps - gif)/ --> 68. usgs earth science data directory/ (this actually is a database of available data - search it for terrain - could prove quite useful.) one other place to look is only available by anonymous ftp at the moment - us geological survey maps - isdres.er.usgs.gov (130.11.48.2). if you've never heard of gopher don't worry it's free and on the net, write me a note if you'd like information on how to get started. best of luck, dan jacobson danj@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu johns hopkins university 
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 i am seeking some alternate solutions on how to turn a postscript type 1 or truetype font outline into polygons that can be subsequently scan converted by a 3d scanline renderer. i have been studying the problem of font conversion for a few years but have never had the need to implement such a system. well, i now have the opportunity to write some font rendering software so i would like to have some of my questions answered before i jump into the deep end. the main problem i face is how to use the even/odd or non-winding rules to turn the outlines into a single outline polygon (my renderer can handle complex polygons so there is no need to reduce the polygons to simple polygons). for example, in the letter "o" there are two outlines: 1) the outside outline which is clockwise (truetype font) 2) the inside outline which is counterclockwise. one common solution used by a number of rendering packages is to simply connect the inner outline to the outer outline at the point where the two outlines are closest. this is equivalent to descibing a "polygon with holes". the renderer will then make the appropriate hole since the interior polygon edges are in the opposite direction to the outside edges. i do not want to use this simplistic system since: 1) it will not handle all outline fonts properly (it is not a simple matter to connect the outer outline to the inner outline for some fancy fonts). 2) it does not properly handle the even/odd or non-winding rules. from my research over the years the proper solution is to use a trapezoid decomposition algorithm to scan convert the outlines into trapezoids (as is done by the postscript and truetype font rasterizers). these trapezoidal polygons can then be easily and properly rendered by the 3d scanline renderer. my question is: are there any better solutions to turning the outlines into polgyons other than the trapezoid decomposer? i am not fond of this solution since it creates excess number of polygons. another question, for those in the know: what is the best algorithm to create bevelled and/or offset curves for font outlines? i have a dozen papers on these subjects but i can't tell which method is the best to implement. thanks for any pointers. --> rob lansdale robert lansdale - (416) 978-6619 dynamic graphics project internet: lansd@dgp.toronto.edu computer systems research institute uucp: ..!uunet!dgp.toronto.edu!lansd university of toronto bitnet: lansd@dgp.utoronto toronto, ontario m5s 1a4, canada 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38735">
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 does anyone out there have or know of, line drawing usa map? thanks very much in advance, yoo@engr.ucf.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38736">
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 i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for 3d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program, and found a few files with the extension 3d2. my 3ds v2.01 doesn't know this type of file, so what are they? and of course, the perennial... where are some meshes, fli files, etc. out there? i would have thought that someone would have collected a few and put them somewhere, but alas i am without this knowledge. mucho appreciato 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38737">
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 i am looking for software to run on my brand new targa+ 16/32. if anyone knows of any sites which have useful stuff, or if you have any yourself you want to give, let me know via mail. thanks a lot! yayayay! jamie@ddsw1.mcs.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38738">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38738" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 hi all, i am looking into methods i can use to turn my linux based bbs into a full color graphical bbs that supports pc, mac, linux, and amiga callers. originally i was inspired by the naplps graphics standard (a summary of which hit this group about 2 weeks ago). following up on software availability of naplps supporting software i find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being pp3 which runs soley on msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users to buy full commercial software if they want to try out the bbs (i know i wouldn't) next most interesting possibility is to port mgr to pc, mac, amiga. i know there is an old version of a mac port on bellcore.com that doesn't work under system 7 but i can't seem to find the source anywhere to see if i can patch it. is there a color version of mgr for linux? i know there was an alpha version of the libs out last year but i misplaced it. does anyone on this group know if mgr as been ported to pc or amiga ? i can't seem to send a message to the mgr channel without it bouncing. does anyone have any other suggestions for a linux based gui bbs ? thanks in advan 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics38740" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 hi ! if you want to have soft-scrolling on your vga, you have to change some intern registers of the crtc. but it is a little bit difficult to explain, so i would suggest, you take a look at "the programming of the ega/vga-adapter" by addison-wesley. you will find all useful descriptions for every available vga-register. dr_bobo@ponton.hanse.de ---> boris pruessmann 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38742">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38742" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 yeah, corel draw and wordperfect presentations pretty limited here, too. since there's no (not really) such thing as a decent raster to vector conversion program, this "tracing" technique is about it. simple stuff, like b&w logos, etc. do pretty well, while more complicated stuff goes haywire. i suspect (even though i don't write code) that a good bitmapped to vector conversion program would probably be as big as most of these application softwares we're using -- but even so, how come one hasn't been written? (to my knowledge). i mean, even hijaak, one of the commercial industry standards of file conversion, hasn't attempted it yet. mac mcdougald * any opinions expressed herein the photography center * are not necessarily (actually, univ. of tenn. knoxville 37996 * are almost certainly not) those mac@utkvx.utk.edu * of the university of tennessee. mac@utkvx.bitnet * (615-974-3449) * "things are more like they are now (615-974-6435) fax * than they've ever been before." 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38744">
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 : can anyone tell me where to find a mpeg viewer (either dos or : windows). : thanks in advance. : alan m. jackson mail : ajackson@cch.cov.ac.uk : liverpool football club - simply the best : "you'll never walk alone" you can find a windows mpeg viewer at wuarchive.wustl.edu in the mirrors/msdos/windows3 directory. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38745">
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 : concerning the proposed newsgroup split, i personally am not in favor of : doing this. i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading : this group, from code to hardware to algorithms. i just think making 5 : different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts : a week per group. i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum : for discussing all aspects of graphics. anyone else feel this way? : just curious. : daemon what he said... (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics38746" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 read issue #2 of wired magazine. it has a long article on the "hype" of 3do. i've noticed that every article talks with the designers and how "great" it is, but never show any pictures of the output (or at least pictures that one can understand) gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles (a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation) spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces. it was very impressive what it can do in real time. john munsch p.s. don't take that to mean that i believe that the system is going to take over the world or something. just that it clearly has a lot more horsepower than any of the vis, cd-i, sega cd, or turbo duo crowd. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38747">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38747" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive. the file is in the msdos/graphics directory and is called "grfwk61t.zip." this program should od everthing you need. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) thanks! it did work, and it is just what i needed thanks... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38749">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38749" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi guys. i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen. when i converted it into pcx,bmp,gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter. for example the yellows became white. any ideas? csc3phx@vaxc.hofstra.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38750">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38750" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen. when i converted it into pcx,bmp,gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter. for example the yellows became white. any ideas? csc3phx@vaxc.hofstra.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38754">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38754" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 : i'm trying out the c++ graphics package interviews. besides the man pages : on the classes, i haven't got any documentation. is there anything else : around? furthermore, can anyone send me a (small!) example program : which shows how to use these classes together ? i would be very gratefull... you might want to try comp.windows.interviews. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38757">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38757" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 : where could i find a description of the jpg file format? specifically : i need to know where in a jpg file i can find the height and width of : the image, and perhaps even the number of colors being used. : any suggestions? : peter try ftp.uu.net, in /graphics/jpeg. chun-hung lin ( ªl«t§» ) r0506048@csie.ntu.edu.tw communication & multimedia lab. dept. of comp. sci. & info. eng. national taiwan university, taipei, taiwan, r.o.c. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38759">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38759" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand? i have trouble understanding the jpeg group's code that i got from an ftp site. if any one can send me some good code, i will appreciate it a lot! thanks! stuart denman stusoft@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38760">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38760" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for 3d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program, and found a few files with the extension 3d2. my 3ds v2.01 doesn't know this type of file, so what are they? they are 3d object files for cad 3d 2.0, a program written by tom hudson for the atari st computers. don't know much more about them except that they are stored with the points first, then the surfaces are next, and are made by listing 3 point numbers that make up the triangle surface. then there's a header that describes coloring, lighting, etc. don't know much more than this, hope this helps. stuart denman stusoft@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38763">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38763" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i'm looking for a program which is able to display 24 bits images. we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x11. thanks in advance. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38764">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38764" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi all. i'm looking for datasets of a human body or head in any of the popular formats. i'm doing a presentation tomorrow which could be greatly enhanced by bringing in this 'human' factor. i've looked around the net with no sucess so far. anyone got any ideas? i'd also appreciate info on the location of datasets for the uss enterprise (any model) thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38767">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38767" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 remember that the unix versions of pov don't create tga but qrt file format output by default. +ft is needed to make tga. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38768">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38768" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 what about qrttoppm < file.dis | ppmtotga > file.tga +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38770">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38770" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 read issue #2 of wired magazine. it has a long article on the "hype" of 3do. i've noticed that every article talks with the designers and how "great" it is, but never show any pictures of the output (or at least pictures that one can understand) gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles (a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation) spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces. it was very impressive what it can do in real time. john munsch the april 1993 edition of mix magazine carries a story on 3do which includes pictures of the unit, a schematic of what's inside and some indication from the people at 3do as to where they intend to go and in what stages. (mix is a trade rag aimed at the professional sound engineering community.) the schematic shows a central dma engine connecting and mediating between two graphics animation processors (32 bit bus), a 32-bit risc processor with math co-processor, video decomp module, a control port, an expansion port (where 3do hangs its double-fast cd player), 1mb dram, an optional video port (for editing video) and on the outbound side 1mb vram to video processor to tv chain parallel with a dsp to sound chain. they promise red book cd-quality audio, full 30 fps video and a future connection path to your pc via a pc expansion card. i am not informed enough to have an opinion about the various means and methods discussed here. the article, written by philip de lancie, does cover the other machines mentioned in this thread. i come from the pc tcp/ip world and see a tremendous potential for bringing connectedness to the educated consumer; 3do seems to have the right business partners to make this happen. hope this helps. david shute email: dks@world.std.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38771">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38771" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 earlier today i read an ad for real-3d animation & ray-tracing software and it looked very convincing to me. however, i don't own an amiga and so i began to wonder, if there's a pc version of it. so, has anyone seen/used real-3d for dos?? rauno 'rene' haapaniemi i every word of it are true, haapanatie 2d 409 i except for those that are lies... 90150 oulu i reneh@otol.fi i douglas adams 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38772">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38772" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 has anyone seen hallusions? you can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a 3d picture. i'm looking for a program that generates these pictures. there's a company in texas that makes them but i doubt if they're giving the program away. any help would be appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38773">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38773" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anybody know about a converter from cgm to pcx or anything else more common. i've spent some time searching the archives with no luck. could you email me your responses. thx in advance, mike g. d0np@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38774">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38774" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anyone have any real experience with the kubota kenai/denali series of graphics workstations? they pretty much blow the pants off sgi machines and sun machines in the same price point, which is about 50,000 bucks. real nice stuff, but i've only seen the stuff on paper. i'm wondering, is there anything not to like? the specs are too massive to get into here, but if a summary is desired i could be coaxed into uploading the spec sheet. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38777">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38777" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 what kind of polygons? shaded? texturemapped? hm? more comes into play with fast routines than just "polygons". it would be nice to know exaclty what system (vga is a start, but what processor?) and a few of the specifics of the implementation. you need to give more info if you want to get any answers! :p i don't want texture mapped, cause if i did i'd asked for them. :) just a simple and fast routine to do filled polygons. as for the processor, it'd be for a minimum of a 286... maybe 386 if i can't find a good one for 286s. ideally, i want a polyn function that can clip to a user-defined viewport, and write to an arbitrary location in memory. of course the chances of ok it is for a game that is 3d and you have listed the characteristics that you are looking for. i think you may have left out a few important parameters. the polygons are all convex. they have less than n sides. (you are drawing meshes walls doors etc.) i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave / self intersecting polygons. this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line. complex (figure 8 type polygons) can be a bit trickier. the less than n sides specification especially if it is a very small number like 3 or 4 allow othe optimisations to be made. thus for a high speed game application i think you are looking for code that exploits and is hence limited to drawing simple convex finding something like that are pretty remote, so i guess i'd need the source with it. oh, and i guess it would need to be in asm otherwise it'd be too slow. i've seen some polygon routines in c, and they've all been waaay too slow. its for a 3d vector graphics program. i've been hunting high and low it may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms. if you limit yourself to 3 or four sided simple convex polygons i think you might be suprised how fast a c algorithm with a asm block move to fill each scan line might actually be. for a polyn function in asm, and i can't find one anywhere that i can use. i've found one or two polyn functions, but my asm is pretty bad, so i won't even try to rewrite them. :) //lucas. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38778">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38778" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 archive-name: graphics/faq this message is automatically posted once a week or so in an effort to cut down on the repetitive junk in comp.graphics. it was last changed on 26apr93. if you have answers to other frequently asked questions that you would like included in this posting, please send me mail. if you don't want to see this posting every week, please add the subject line to your kill file. thank you. if your copy of the faq is more than a couple of weeks old, you may want to seek out the most recent version. the latest version of this faq is always available on the archive site pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) as pub/usenet/news.answers/graphics/faq. john grieggs grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov johng@portal.com last update: 26apr93 sorry i haven't posted this for a couple of weeks, but i was called out of town due to a death in the family. this is reality, folks. what's new? siggraph online bibliography project (spencer@cgrg.ohio-state.edu). grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov contents: 1) general references for graphics questions. 2) drawing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional screen. 3) quantizing 24 bit images down to 8 bits. 4) converting color into grayscale. 5) quantizing grayscale to black&white. 6) rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle. 7) free image manipulation software. 8) format documents for tiff, iff, biff, nff, off, fits, etc. 9) converting between vector formats. 10) how to get pixar films. 11) how do i draw a circle as a bezier (or b-spline) curve? 12) how to order standards documents. 13) how to ftp by email. 14) how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon. 15) how to tessellate a sphere. 16) specific references on ray-tracing and global illumination. 17) siggraph information online 18) siggraph panels proceedings available 19) graphics mailing lists 20) specific references on file formats 21) what about gif? 22) what is morphing? 23) how to ray-trace height fields 24) how to find the area of a 3d polygon 25) how to join acm/siggraph 26) where can i find mri and ct scan volume data? 27) specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees 28) where can i get a program to plot xy(z) data or f(x) data? 29) specific references on pex and phigs 30) siggraph online bibliography project 1) general references for graphics questions: computer graphics: principles and practice (2nd ed.), j.d. foley, a. van dam, s.k. feiner, j.f. hughes, addison-wesley 1990, isbn 0-201-12110-7 procedural elements for computer graphics, david f. rogers, mcgraw hill 1985, isbn 0-07-053534-5 mathematical elements for computer graphics 2nd ed., david f. rogers and j. alan adams, mcgraw hill 1990, isbn 0-07-053530-2 three dimensional computer graphics, alan watt, addison-wesley 1990, isbn 0-201-15442-0 an introduction to ray tracing, andrew glassner (ed.), academic press 1989, isbn 0-12-286160-4 graphics gems, andrew glassner (ed.), academic press 1990, isbn 0-12-286165-5 graphics gems ii, james arvo (ed.), academic press 1991, isbn 0-12-64480-0 graphics gems iii, david kirk (ed.), academic press 1992, isbn 0-12-409670-0 (with ibm disk) or 0-12-409671-9 (with mac disk) digital image warping, george wolberg, ieee computer society press monograph 1990, isbn 0-8186-8944-7 digital image processing (2nd ed.), rafael c. gonzalez, paul wintz, addison-wesley 1987, isbn 0-201-11026-1 a programmer's geometry, adrian bowyer, john woodwark, butterworths 1983, isbn 0-408-01242-0 pbk an automatic mail handler at brown university allows users of "computer graphics: principles and practice," by foley, van dam, feiner, and hughes, to obtain text errata and information on distribution of the software packages described in the book. also, users can send the authors feedback, to report text errors and software bugs, make suggestions, and submit exercises. to receive information describing how you can use the mail handler, simply mail graphtext@cs.brown.edu and put the word "help" in the subject line. use the subject line "software-distribution" to receive information specifically concerning the software packages srgp and sphigs. errata for "an introduction to ray tracing" is available on wuarchive.wustl.edu in graphics/graphics/books/introtort.errata. errata for "digital image warping" is in the same directory as "digital-image-warping.errata". all c code from the "graphics gems" series is available via anonymous ftp from princeton.edu. look in the directory pub/graphics/graphicsgems for the various volumes (gems, gemsii, gemsiii), and get the readme file first. errata to _graphics gems_ and _graphics gems ii is available on wuarchive.wustl.edu in graphics/graphics/books. a list of computer graphics, computational geometry and image processing journals is available from juhana kouhia, jk87377@cs.tut.fi. 2) drawing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional screen. the simple answer is, you divide by the depth. for a more verbose explanation, see any of the above references, starting with: the foley & van dam & feiner & hughes "computer graphics" book is certainly a good start. chapter 6 is "viewing in 3d", then read chapter 15, "visible-surface determination". for more information go to chapter 16 for shading, chapter 19 for clipping, and branch out from there. 3) quantizing 24 bit images down to 8 bits. find a copy of "color image quantization for frame buffer display" by paul heckbert, siggraph '82 proceedings, page 297. there are other algorithms, but this one works well and is fairly simple. implementations are included in most raster toolkits (see item 7 below). a variant method is described in "graphics gems", p. 287-293. note that the code from the "graphics gems" series is all available from an ftp site, as described above. check out john bradley's "diversity algorithm", which is incorporated into the xv package and described in the back of the manual. the imagemagick package (see section 7 for where it is) contains another quantizing algorithm which is presented as "doing a better job than the other algorithms, but slower". there's also an implementation of: wan, wong, and prusinkiewicz, _an algorithm for multidimensional data clustering_, transactions on mathematical software, vol. 14 #2 (june, 1988), pp. 153-162. avialable as princeton.edu:pub/graphics/colorquant.shar. this code, in modified form, appears in the utah raster toolkit as well. 4) converting color into grayscale. the ntsc formula is: luminosity = .299 red + .587 green + .114 blue 5) quantizing grayscale to black&white. the only reference you need for this stuff is: digital halftoning, robert ulichney, mit press 1987, isbn 0-262-21009-6 but before you go off and start coding, check out the image manipulation software mentioned in item 7 below. all of the packages mentioned can do some form of gray to b&w conversion. 6) rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle. the obvious but wrong method is to loop over the pixels in the source image, transform each coordinate, and copy the pixel to the destination. this is wrong because it leaves holes in the destination. instead, loop over the pixels in the destination image, apply the *reverse* transformation to the coordinates, and copy that pixel from the source. this method is quite general, and can be used for any one-to-one 2-d mapping, not just rotation. you can add anti-aliasing by doing sub-pixel sampling. however, there is a much faster method, with antialising included, which involves doing three shear operations. the method was originally created for the im raster toolkit (see below); an implementation is also present in pbmplus. reference: "a fast algorithm for raster rotation", by alan paeth (awpaeth@watcgl.waterloo.edu) graphics interface '86 (vancouver). an article on the im toolkit appears in the same journal. an updated version of the rotation paper appears in "graphics gems" (see section [1]) under the original title. 7) free image manipulation software. there are a number of toolkits for converting from one image format to another, doing simple image manipulations such as size scaling, plus the above-mentioned 24 -> 8, color -> gray, gray -> b&w conversions. here are pointers to some of them: xv by john bradley. x-based image display, manipulation, and format conversion package. xv displays many image formats and permits editing of gif files, among others. the program was updated 5/92; see the file contrib/xv-2.21.tar.z on export.lcs.mit.edu. pbmplus, by jef poskanzer. comprehensive format conversion and image manipulation package. the latest version is always available via anonymous ftp as ftp.ee.lbl.gov:pbmplus*.tar.z, wuarchive.wustl.edu:graphics/graphics/packages/pbmplus/pbmplus*.tar.z, and export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/pbmplus*.tar.z. im raster toolkit, by alan paeth (awpaeth@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca). provides a portable and efficient format and related toolkit. the format is versatile in supporting pixels of arbitrary channels, components, and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine byte-order independence. the kit contains more than 50 tools with extensive support of image manipulation, digital halftoning and format conversion. previously distributed on tape c/o the university of waterloo, an ftp version will appear someday. utah rle toolkit. conversion and manipulation package, similar to pbmplus. available via ftp as cs.utah.edu:pub/urt-*, princeton.edu:pub/graphics/urt-*, and freebie.engin.umich.edu:pub/urt-*. fuzzy pixmap manipulation, by michael mauldin <mlm@nl.cs.cmu.edu>. conversion and manipulation package, similar to pbmplus. version 1.0 available via ftp as nl.cs.cmu.edu:/usr/mlm/ftp/fbm.tar.z, ftp.uu.net:pub/fbm.tar.z, and ucsd.edu:graphics/fbm.tar.z. img software set, by paul raveling <raveling@venera.isi.edu>. reads and writes its own image format, displays on an x11 screen, and does some image manipulations. version 1.3 is available via ftp as export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/img_1.3.tar.z, and venera.isi.edu:pub/img_1.3.tar.z along with a large collection of color xim, x image manipulator, by philip r. thompson. it does essential interactive image manipulations and uses x11r4 and the osf/motif toolkit for the interface. it supports images in 1, 8, 24 and 32 bit formats. reads/writes and converts to/from gif, xwd, xbm, tiff, rle, xim, and other formats. writes level 2 postscript. other utilities and image application library are included. not a paint package. available via ftp from gis.mit.edu. xloadimage, by jim frost <madd@std.com>. reads in images in various formats and displays them on an x11 screen. available via ftp as export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/xloadimage*, and in your nearest comp.sources.x xli, by grame gill, is an updated xloadimage with numerous improvements in both speed and in the number of formats supported. available in the same places as xloadimage (contrib tape, comp.sources.x archives). tiff software, by sam leffler <sam@okeeffe.berkeley.edu>. nice portable library for reading and writing tiff files, plus a few tools for manipulating them and reading other formats. available via ftp as ucbvax.berkeley.edu:pub/tiff/*.tar.z or ftp.uu.net:graphics/tiff.tar.z xtiff, an x11 tool for viewing a tiff file. it was written to handle as many different kinds of tiff files as possible while remaining simple, portable and efficient. xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes. it is distributed as part of sam leffler's libtiff package and it is also available on export.lcs.mit.edu, ftp.uu.net and comp.sources.x. xtiff 2.0 was announced in 4/91; it includes xlib and xt versions. alv, a sun-specific image toolkit. version 2.0.6 posted to comp.sources.sun on 11dec89. also available via email to alv-users-request@cs.bris.ac.uk. popi, an image manipulation language. version 2.1 posted to comp.sources.misc on 12dec89. imagemagick, an x11 package for display and interactive manipulation of images. includes tools for image conversion, annotation, compositing, animation, and creating montages. imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats. available via ftp as export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/imagemagick.tar.z. khoros, a huge (~100 meg) graphical development environment based on x11r4. khoros components include a visual programming language, code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system, an interactive user interface editor, an interactive image display package, an extensive library of image and signal processing routines, and 2d/3d plotting packages. available via ftp as pprg.eece.unm.edu:pub/khoros/*. laboimage, a sunview-based image processing and analysis package. it includes more than 200 image manipulation, processing and measurement routines, on-line help, plus tools such as an image editor, a color table editor and several biomedical utilities. available via anonymous ftp as ads.com:pub/vision-list-archive/shareware/laboimage_3.1.tar.z the san diego supercomputer center image tools, software tools for reading, writing, and manipulating raster images. binaries for some machines available via anonymous ftp in sdsc.edu:sdscpub. the independent jpeg group has written a package for reading and writing jpeg files. ftp to ftp.uu.net:graphics/jpeg/jpegsrc.v?.tar.z don't forget to set binary mode when you ftp tar files. for you milnet folks who still don't have name servers, the ip addresses are: ads.com 128.229.30.16 cs.utah.edu 128.110.4.21 coral.cs.jcu.edu.au 137.219.17.4 export.lcs.mit.edu 18.24.0.12 freebie.engin.umich.edu 141.212.103.21 ftp.ee.lbl.gov 128.3.112.20 ftp.uu.net 137.39.1.9 or 192.48.96.9 gis.mit.edu 18.80.1.118 gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au 128.250.70.62 karazm.math.uh.edu 129.7.7.6 marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au 134.7.1.1 nic.funet.fir 128.214.6.100 ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu 141.142.20.50 nl.cs.cmu.edu 128.2.222.56 pit-manager.mit.edu 18.172.1.27 pprg.eece.unm.edu 129.24.24.10 princeton.edu 128.112.128.1 sdsc.edu 132.249.20.22 ucbvax.berkeley.edu 128.32.133.1 venera.isi.edu 128.9.0.32 weedeater.math.yale.edu 128.36.23.17 wuarchive.wustl.edu 128.252.135.4 zamenhof.cs.rice.edu 128.42.1.75 please do *not* post or mail messages saying "i can't ftp, could someone mail this to me?" there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message. see item 13 below for details on some. also, the newsgroup alt.graphics.pixutils is specifically for discussion of software like this. you may find useful information there. 8) format documents for tiff, iff, biff, nff, off, fits, etc. you almost certainly don't need these. read the above item 7 on free image manipulation software. get one or more of these packages and look through them. chances are excellent that the image converter you were going to write is already there. but if you still want one of the format documents, many such files are available by anonymous ftp from zamenhof.cs.rice.edu in directory pub/graphics.formats. these files were collected off the net and are believed to be correct. this archive includes pixel formats, and two- and three-dimensional object formats. the future of this archive is uncertain at the moment, as mark hall <foo@cs.rice.edu> will apparently no longer be maintaining it. a second graphics file format archive is now being actively maintained by quincey koziol (koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu). the latest version exists at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in /misc/file.formats/graphics.formats. apparently, neither of these is complete, you might want to check both. fits stands for flexible image transport system. it's a file format most often used in astronomy. despite the name, it can contain not only images but other things as well. there is a regular monthly fits basics and information posting on sci.astro.fits - read it if you want to know more. 9) converting between vector formats. a lot of people ask about converting from hpgl to postscript, or macdraw to cgm, or whatever. it is important to understand that this is a very different problem from the image format conversions in item 7. converting one image format to another is a fairly easy problem, since once you get past all the file header junk, a pixel is a pixel -- the basic objects are the same for all image formats. this is not so for vector formats. the basic objects -- circles, ellipses, drop-shadowed pattern-filled round-cornered rectangles, etc. -- vary from one format to another. except in extremely restricted cases, it is simply not possible to do a one-to-one conversion between vector formats. there is software for converting to and from cgm files on ftp.psc.edu. the contributor states that it runs on unix, ms-windows, and possibly the mac. a better, more specific blurb would be most welcome. on the other hand, it is quite possible to do a close approximation, rendering an image from one format using the primitives from another. as far as i know, no one has put together a general toolkit of such converters, but two different hpgl to postscript converters have been posted to comp.sources.misc. check the index on your nearest archive a related frequent question is how to convert from some vector format to a bitmapped image - from postscript to sun raster format, or hpgl to x11 bitmap. for example, some of the commercial postscript clones for pc's allow you to render to a disk file as well as a printer. also, the postscript interpreters in the next box and in sun's x11/news can be used to render to a file if you're clever. but in general, the answer is no. however, if someone were to put together a vector to vector conversion toolkit, adding a vector to raster converter would be gnu ghostscript (from the fsf - current version 2.5.2) includes drivers for both ppm and gif format files, thus it can be used as a postscript to ppm or a postscript to gif filter. (it implements essentially all of postscript level 1 and alot of display postscript and level 2). 10) how to get pixar films. the various john lasseter / pixar computer animated shorts are available on video tape. you can order them from direct cinema limited: film individual price institutional price luxo, jr. $14.95 $50.00 red's dream $19.95 $75.00 tin toy $24.95 $75.00 knickknack $24.95 $75.00 luxo, jr./red's dream/tin toy $39.95 $100.00 all tapes are on 1/2" vhs ntsc. add $10/tape for pal format. also available: tin toy t-shirt $15.00 knickknack 3d t-shirt $15.00 (includes glasses) for individual orders, add $5 s&h for the first tape or shirt, $2 for each additional tape or shirt. for institutional orders, add $5 s&h for the first tape, $3 for each additional tape. foreign shipping, add $3/tape or shirt. call 800-525-0000 (213-396-4774 international, 213-396-3233 fax) to charge to your credit card. call first to verify prices and availability. or, just write to: direct cinema limited 1749 14th street santa monica, ca 90404-4342 allan braunsdorf has this to say: at siggraph they were selling a tape with all four shorts for $25. that was a sale price. you can get it for slightly more than that normally. ($35 maybe.) i believe it's available from renderman retail (at pixar's address). 1001 west cutting blvd. richmond, ca. 94804 (510) 236-4000 (510) 236-0388 (fax) you can obtain a video directly from pixar which contains "luxo, jr.", "red's dream", "tin toy" and "knicknack" for $25.00, plus $2.50 for shipping. they will take your order over the phone or via fax with a major credit card. i ordered mine just last week and received it several days later. don't expect to be able to rent a copy from your local video store. according to the license agreement printed on the back cover of the case, it cannot be rented. 11) how do i draw a circle as a bezier (or b-spline) curve? the short answer is, "you can't." unless you use a rational spline you can only approximate a circle. the approximation may look acceptable, but it is sensitive to scale. magnify the scale and the error of approximation magnifies. deviations from circularity that were not visible in the small can become glaring in the large. if you want to do the job right, consult the article: "a menagerie of rational b-spline circles" by leslie piegl and wayne tiller in ieee computer graphics and applications, volume 9, number 9, september, 1989, pages 48-56. for rough, non-rational approximations, consult the book: computational geometry for design and manufacture by i. d. faux and m. j. pratt, ellis horwood publishers, halsted press, john wiley 1980. for the best known non-rational approximations, consult the article: "good approximation of circles by curvature-continuous bezier curves" by tor dokken, morten daehlen, tom lyche, and knut morken in computer aided geometric design, volume 7, numbers 1-4 (combined), june, 1990, pages 33-41 [elsevier science publishers (north-holland)] 12) how to order standards documents. the american national standards institute sells ansi standards, and also iso (international) standards. their sales office is at 1-212-642-4900, mailing address is 1430 broadway, ny ny 10018. it helps if you have the complete name and number. some useful numbers to know: cgm (computer graphics metafile) is iso 8632-4 (1987). gks (graphical kernel system) is ansi x3.124-1985. phigs (programmer's hierarchical interactive graphics system) is ansi x3.144-1988. iges is asme/ansi y14.26m-1987. language bindings are often separate but related numbers; for example, the gks fortran binding is x3.124.1-1985. standards-in-progress are made available at key milestones to solicit comments from the graphical public (this includes you!). ansi can let you know where to order them; most are available from global engineering at 1-800-854-7179. 13) how to ftp by email. there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system. you send a message to an automated server saying something like "send comp.sources.unix/fbm", and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail. in addition, there is at least one ftp-by-mail server. send mail to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com saying "help" and it will tell you how to use it. note that this service has at times been turned off due to abuse. 14) how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon. consider a ray originating at the point of interest and continuing to infinity. if it crosses an odd number of polygon edges along the way, the point is within the polygon. if the ray crosses an even number of edges, the point is either outside the polygon, or within an interior hole formed from intersecting polygon edges. this idea is known in the trade as the jordan curve theorem; see eric haines' article in glassner's ray tracing book (above) for more information, including treatment of special cases. another method is to sum the absolute angles from the point to all the vertices on the polygon. if the sum is 2 pi, the point is inside, if the sum is 0 the point is outside. however, this method is about an order of magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the trigonometric functions is usually quite costly. code for both methods (plus barycentric triangle testing) can be found in the ray tracing news, vol. 5, no. 3, available from princeton.edu: pub/graphics/rtnews/rtnv5n3.z. 15) how to tessellate a sphere. one simple way is to do recursive subdivision into triangles. the base of the recursion is an octahedron, and then each level divides each triangle into four smaller ones. jon leech <leech@cs.unc.edu> has posted a nice routine called sphere.c that generates the coordinates. it's available for ftp on ftp.ee.lbl.gov and princeton.edu. 16) specific references on ray-tracing and global illumination. rick speer maintains a cross-indexed ray-tracing bibliography: highlights of this edition- i) more than 500 citations spanning the period from 1968 through november '91; ii) papers from all siggraph, graphics interface, eurographics, cg international and ausgraph proceedings through december, '91; iii) all citations keyworded for easy lookup; iv) cross-indices by keyword and author; v) glossary of the 119 keywords used. the bib is in the form of a postscript file. the printout is 41 pages long. below is a list of ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file. it's named "speer.raytrace.bib.ps.z" and is compressed at most sites- site dir wuarchive.wustl.edu graphics/graphics/bib/rt.bib.speer/ karazm.math.uh.edu pub/graphics/ gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au pub/papers/ nic.funet.fi pub/sci/papers/graphics coral.cs.jcu.edu.au graphics/papers/ eric haines (erich@eye.com) maintains ray tracing and radiosity/global illumination bibliographies. these are in "refer" format, and so can be searched electronically (a simple awk script to search for keywords is included with each). the bibliographies are available at most of the sites listed above, and the most current versions are maintained at princeton.edu: pub/graphics/papers as "raybib.*" and "radbib.*". tom wilson (wilson@cs.ucf.edu) has collected over 300 abstracts from ray tracing related research papers and books. the information is essentially in plaintext, and latex and troff formatting programs are included. this collection is available at most of the sites above as "rtabs.*". 17) siggraph information online [from steve cunningham and ralph orlick] acm-siggraph announces its online information site at siggraph.org (128.248.245.250). this site now provides siggraph information via both anonymous ftp and an electronic mail archive server. the anonymous ftp service is very standard, and the ftp directory includes both conference and publications subdirectories. to retrieve information by electronic mail, send mail to archive-server@siggraph.org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish. a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up-to-date list of available information. 18) siggraph panels proceedings available [from steve cunningham and bob judd] acm siggraph announces the availability of the siggraph '91 panels proceedings at the siggraph.org site (128.248.245.250). the proceedings are available in three formats: text (ascii) rtf (rich text format, suitable for many word processors) word (ms word for the macintosh) they may be retrieved from siggraph.org in two ways: (1) by anonymous ftp change to one of the directories publications/s91/panels_proceedings/[text|rtf|word] the text and rtf files may be downloaded in ascii mode, while the word files are stored in macbinary format and must be downloaded in binary each directory contains a table of contents file (toc) that describes the contents of each panel file. (2) by electronic mail send mail to archive-server@siggraph.org you can retrieve either the text or rtf files. we suggest that you first retrieve the index files by putting one of the messages send panel91-txt index send panel91-rtf index in the subject or body of the message. you will get the necessary information to retrieve the actual transcript files. 19) graphics mailing lists there are a variety of graphics-related mailing list out there, each covering either a single product or a single topic. i have been an active participant in one of these for some time now, and find the focus and expertise which can be brought to bear on an isolated topic to be nothing short of amazing. please send me the appropriate information if you have any others you would like to see added. name: imagine mailing list description: discussion forum for users of the imagine 3d rendering and animation package by impulse, inc. platforms: amiga, ibm subscription: imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com posting: imagine@email.sp.paramax.com name: dctv mailing list description: discussion forum for users of the digital creations dctv box, software, and file formats platforms: amiga subscription: dctv-request@nova.cc.purdue.edu posting: dctv@nova.cc.purdue.edu name: rayshade users mailing list description: discussion forum for users of the rayshade raytracer platforms: most unix boxes, amiga, mac, ibm subscription: rayshade-request@cs.princeton.edu posting: rayshade-users@cs.princeton.edu name: lightwave 3d software for toaster mailing list description: discussion forum for users of lightwave, the video toaster modelling and rendering package platforms: amiga subscription: lightwave-request@bobsbox.rent.com with "subscribe lightwave-l" in your message posting: lightwave@bobsbox.rent.com name: pov mailing list description: discussion forum for dkbtrace and pov renderers platforms: unix subscription: listserv@trearn.bitnet posting: dkb-l@trearn.bitnet name: mailing list for massive parallel rendering description: same? platforms: unix subscription: mp-render-request@icase.edu posting: mp-render@icase.edu 20) specific references on file formats graphics file formats, david kay and john levine, windcrest/mcgraw-hill 1992, isbn 0-8306-3059-7 paper, isbn 0-8306-3060-0 $36.95 hardcover, isbn 0-8306-3059-7 $24.95 paper. comments - 26 formats, no software (this is good, imho - i prefer books which are non-platform-dependent). questions about this book may be sent to gbook@iecc.cambridge.ma.us. 21) what about gif? gif stands for graphics interchange format. it is portable and usable upon a wide variety of platforms. it is quite limited in some ways (yes, the keeper of the faq has some opinions after all), and in fact, i don't like it much. however, it looks to me like the most-frequently asked question which was not previously covered in this list. the following is a list of newsgroups and the like where one could go to find out about gif. newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.d,alt.binaries.pictures.misc, alt.binaries.pictures.utilities,alt.binaries.pictures.fractals, alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.d,news.answers available in the indicated usenet newsgroup(s), or via anonymous ftp from pit-manager.mit.edu in the files: /pub/usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part1 /pub/usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part2 also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail message containing any or all of: send usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part1 send usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part2 send a message containing "help" to get general information about the mail server. also, you could check out the resources described in sections 7, 8, and 20 above for more information. 22) what is morphing? warping is the deformation of an image by mapping each pixel to a new location. morphing is blending from one image or object to another one. valerie hall has written an excellent introduction to warping and morphing. this is available for anonymous ftp from marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au in the directory pub/graphics/bibliography/morph. there are three files: morph_intro.ps.z (postscript version, many pictures - 1.5m) morph_intro.txt.z (text version) m_responses.z (responses to morphing questions) the files are compressed, so you must use binary transfer and uncompress them afterwards. 23) how to ray-trace height fields height fields are a special case in ray-tracing. they have a number of uses, such as terrain rendering, and some optimization is possible. thus, they get their own faq section. note that further references can no doubt be located via the ray-tracing bibs in section 16 above. the following paper seems to be the definitive reference: f. kenton musgrave grid tracing: fast ray tracing for height fields july, 1988 <musg88.ps.z> this is available as "research report yaleu/dcs/rr-639" from yale university, it's also in the siggraph '91 fractal modeling in 3d computer graphics and imaging course notes, and (best of all) it's available on the net: nic.funet.fi pub/sci/papers/musg88.ps.z weedeater.math.yale.edu pub/papers/musg88.ms.z princeton.edu pub/graphics/papers/musg88.ms.z coral.cs.jcu.edu.au graphics/papers/musg88.ps.z gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au pub/papers/musg88.ms.z and musg88.ps.z an implementation of this paper may be found in rayshade. another paper exists: %a david w. paglieroni %a sidney m. petersen %t parametric height field ray tracing %j proceedings of graphics interface '92 %i canadian information processing society %c toronto, ontario %d may 1992 %p 192-200 and still one more: musgrave, kolb, and mace "the synthesis and rendering of eroded fractal terrains", computer graphics vol 23, no. 3 (siggraph '89 procedings) p. 41-50 24) how to find the area of a 3d polygon the area of a triangle is given by (in c notation), area = 0.5 * ( ( x[0] * y[1] ) + ( x[1] * y[2] ) + ( x[2] * y[0] ) - ( x[1] * y[0] ) - ( x[2] * y[1] ) - ( x[0] * y[2] ) ); and the area of a planar polygon is given by area = 0.0; for ( i = 0; i < n - 1; i++ ) area += ( x[i] * y[i + 1] ) - ( x[i + 1] * y[i] ); area += ( x[n - 1] * y[0] ) - ( x[0] * y[n - 1] ); area /= 2.0; if the area is a negative number, the polygon or triangle is clockwise, if positive, it is counterclockwise. from ronald golman's gem (in graphics gems ii - see section 1 above), "area of planar polygons and volume of polyhedra:" the area of a polygon p0, p1, p2, ... pn, not in the x-y plane, is given by area(polygon) = 1/2 * | n . sigma { pk x pk+1 } | where n is the unit vector normal to the plane and p is a polygonal vertex. the . represents the dot product operator and the x represents the cross product operator. sigma represents the summation operator. | | represents the absolute value operator. pn+1 is equal to p0. 25) how to join acm/siggraph probably the easiest way to join acm/siggraph is to trot over to your local technical library and find a copy of communications of the acm. somewhere within the first few pages will be an application blank. fill it out and mail it in. acm membership for students costs $23.00, voting or associate membership $77.00 (yearly) siggraph student membership costs an additional $16.00, $26.00 for voting or associate members (also yearly). to get tog (transactions on graphics) it's another $26.00 for students and $31.00 for voting or associate members. if you just want to join siggraph without joining acm, it'll cost you $59.00 (no student discount). there are surcharges for overseas airmailing of publications. acm member services may be contacted via email at acmhelp@acmvm.bitnet. their phone number is (212) 626-0500. fax number (212) 944-1318. snailmail address: po box 12114 church street station new york, new york 10257 siggraph `93 will be held in anaheim, california, at the anaheim convention center (just up the street from disneyland) on august 1-6, 1993. 26) where can i find mri and ct scan volume data? volume data sets are available from the university of north carolina at omicron.cs.unc.edu (152.2.128.159) in /pub/softlab/chvrtd. (commerical use is prohibited.) head data - a 109-slice mri data set of a human head. knee data - a 127-slice mri data set of a human knee. hipip data - the result of a quantum mechanical calculation of a sod data of a one-electron orbital of hipip, an iron protein. sod data - an electron density map of the active site of sod (superoxide dismutase). ct cadaver head data - a 113-slice mri data set of a ct study of a cadaver mr brain data - a 109-slice mri data set of a head with skull partially removed to reveal brain. rna data - an electron density map for staphylococcus aureus ribonuclease. 27) specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees h. samet, the design and analysis of spatial data structures, addison-wesley, reading, ma, 1990. isbn 0-201-50255-0. h. samet, applications of spatial data structures: computer graphics, image processing, a nd gis, addison-wesley, reading, ma, 1990. isbn 0-201-50300-0. 28) where can i get a program to plot xy(z) data or f(x) data? gnuplot is a command-driven interactive data/function plotting program. it runs on just about any machine, and is very flexible in terms of supported output devices. the official north american distribution site for the latest version is dartmouth.edu in /pub/gnuplot. more information is available from the usenet newsgroup comp.graphics.gnuplot and its faq, graphics/gnuplot-faq. ace/gr (xmgr - motif/xvgr - xview) is a data/function plotting tool for workstations or x-terminals using x. available from ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu in /ccalmr/pub/acegr. robotx (robot) is a general purpose plotting and data analysis program. requires xview, x-terminal or workstation. available from sunsite.unc.edu in /pub/academic/data_analysis. xgraph is a popular two-dimensional plotting program that accepts data in a form similar to the unix program graph and displays line graphs, scatter plots, or bar charts on an x11 display. available from ic.berkeley.edu in /pub. drawplot is a program for drawing 2d plots on x10/x11 windows, sunview displays, or hp2648 terminals. available from xcf.berkeley.edu in /src/local. 29) specific references on pex and phigs pexlib programming manual, tom gaskins, 1154 pages, o'reilly & associates, isbn 1-56592-028-7 pexlib reference manual, edited by steve talbott, 577 pages, o'reilly & associates, isbn 1-56592-029-5 phigs programming manual, tom gaskins, 908 pages, o'reilly & associates, isbn 0-93775-85-4 (softcover), isbn 0-937175-92-7 (casebound) phigs reference manual, edited by linda kosko, 1099 pages, o'reilly & associates, isbn 0-937175-91-9 30) siggraph online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over 15,000 unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format, available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource. the database is located at "siggraph.org". users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline, or telnet to "siggraph.org" and log in as "biblio" and interactively search the database for entries of interest, by keyword. additions/corrections/suggestions may be directed to the admin, "bibadmin@siggraph.org". john t. grieggs (telos @ jet propulsion laboratory) 4800 oak grove drive, pasadena, ca. 91109 m/s 525-3660 (818) 306-6506 uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.arpa 
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 1) lucas film 2) pixar 3) 3d/eye inc. 4) light & magic wangc@cs.indiana.edu 
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 european computer research centre research positions in 3d graphics ecrc is currently expanding its research staff in three-dimensional graphics. we are looking for highly qualified researchers with a phd in computer science and a proven ability to conduct highly innovative research. preference will be given to candidates who have strong experience in developing and implementing algorithms for three-dimensional graphics, visualization and user interaction. we presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and recent graduates. candidates with especially strong backgrounds may be considered for positions as visiting scientists or for ph.d. student research positions. the european computer-industry research centre is located in munich, germany with english as the working language. the centre is funded by a consortium of major computer companies, with a mission to pursue research in fundamental areas of computer science. active areas of research include visualization and user interfaces, distributed computing, parallelism, deductive systems and databases. the center employs 45 researchers of 21 different nationalities. the small but rapidly growing graphics group is currently investigating new methods for three-dimensional human-computer interaction and the integration of computer vision and computer graphics technology. the center has extensive computing facilities which includes sun workstations, apple macintoshes, a well equipped graphics laboratory and network access to super-computer facilities. ecrc offers competitive salaries and excellent benefits. for immediate consideration, send a written application with curriculum vitae, telephone number, e-mail address, and references to: douglas greer, ecrc gmbh, arabellastrasse 17, d--8000 munich 81, germany 
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 hi folks, does anyone have a copy of playmation they'd be willing to sell me. i'd love to try it out, but not for the retail $$$. playmation is available direct from anjon & associates for $299. it's hard to beat that price. also, you'd be better off with a newer version than an older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered. thanks in advance, | mark marino | omar@osf.org | uunet!osf!omar | \_ -ken baer. programmer/animator, hash enterprises <[_] usenet: baer@qiclab.uucp / applelink: kenbaer / office: (206)573-9427 =# \, "we're not hitchhiking anymore, we're riding!" - ren hoak. 
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 : i was recently talking to a possible employer ( mine! :-) ) and he made a reference to a : 48-bit graphics computer/image processing system. i seem to remember it being called image or : something akin to that. anyway, he claimed it had 48-bit color + a 12-bit alpha channel. that's : 60 bits of info--what could that possibly be for? specifically the 48-bit color? that's 280 : trillion colors, many more than the human eye can resolve. is this an anti-aliasing thing? or : is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor. i'm pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific systems (i.e. photo processing gear) use as much as 96 bits of color info. why? why not, oversampling is never a bad idea especially if the hardware's only task is image manipulation, and profressional photographers demand professional results. : also, to settle a bet with my roommate, what are sgi's flagship products? i know of : iris, indigo, and crimson, but what are the other ones, and which is their top-of-the-line? : (sadly, i have access to none of them. just a dec 5000/25. sigh.) strange question, but anyway, there's the vgx line, the newer indigo^2, and the onyx systems are the new big boys on the block (you can get a 24 processor system with twice the graphics performance of a reality engine). there's more, but i don't have my handy "periodic table of sgi's" on me... 
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 i cant get through to the author of rtrace. his site is inaccessible can he upload the new version somewhere else please? 
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 request for discussion for the open telematic group i have proposed the forming of a consortium/task force for the promotion of naplps/jpeg, fif to openly discuss ways, method, procedures,algorythms, applications, implementation, extensions of naplps/jpeg standards. these standards should facilitate the creation of real_time online applications that make use of voice, video, telecommuting, hires conferencing, distant learning, online order entry, fax,in addition these dicussion would assist all to better understand how sgml,cals, oda,mime,oodbms,jpeg,mpeg,fractals,sql,cdrom,cdromxa,kodak photocd,tcl, v.fast,eia/tia562,can best be incorporated and implemented to develop telematic/multimedia applications.... we want to be able to support dos, unix, mac, windows, nt, os/2 it is our hope that individuals,developers, corporations, universities, r & d labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor. this would be a not_for_profit group with bylaws and charter. already corporation have decided to support otg (open telematic group) so do not delay joining if you are a developer an rfd has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a faq will soon be be compose to start promulgating what is known on the subject. if you would like to be added to the mailist send email or mail to the address below. this group would publish an electronic quarterly naplps/jpeg newsletter as well as a hardcopy version. we urge all who wants to see cmcs hires based applications & the naplps/jpeg g r o w, decide to join and mutually benefit from this not-for_profit endeavor. note: telematic has been defined by mr. james martin as the marriage of voice, video, hi-res graphics, fax, ivr, music over telephone lines/lan. if you would like to get involve write to me at: img inter-multimedia group| internet: epimntl@world.std.com p.o. box 95901 | ed.pimentel@gisatl.fidonet.org atlanta, georgia, us | cis : 70611,3703 | fidonet : 1:133/407 | bbs : +1-404-985-1198 zyxel 14.4k to all that have responded we are trying to acknowledge as soon as possible. we have really been inundated with org, corp, edu willing to get involve. it would be nice if upon responded you can state in what capacity you are willing to get involve. edimg@willard.atl.ga.us (ed pimentel) gatech!kd4nc!vdbsan!willard!edimg emory!uumind!willard!edimg willard's house bbs, atlanta, ga -- +1 (404) 664 8814 
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 could anyone tell me the format of gif files. i would like to know how i could determine the size of the picture. also, are gif files in compressed format? how many bits store pixel color information? (this is probally a simple question, but i couldn't find it in the faq.) email responses would be perferred david lau davidla@ecs.comm.mot.com 
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 a good reason (which is why many companies use it) for 48 bits / pixel is so you can use double buffering (for animating scenes) - i.e. you have 2 * 24-bit planes. you write to the one in the background, and then flip! -- the entire screen updates to the second image-plane. the screen updates in one refresh and you don't see different objects appearing in the order that they're drawn (as in the cad/macdraw effect). now your ready to update the image that used to be in the foreground. steve. (thssstb@iitmax.iit.edu / iris.iit.edu) about the sg product line: who can even keep track nowadays? every co. seems to (as their ads / press releases claim) redefine computing (etc. etc.) as we know it with each new product. progress and competition are great, but who wants to invest in a system that's obsolete by the time it reaches your desk? 
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 a user on my bbs "accidentally" deleted his vga driver for his oak77 card and has no backup. i was wondering if someone knew of an ftp site (and path, please!) where such a thing might be obtained. thanks. there is no religion when a man has good curry call the lizard's den bbs (801) it's-yoda - usenet, nethack, xix, pc/amiga tim clinkenpeel: aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist. -- i exclusively represent myself -- 
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 i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave / self intersecting polygons. this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line. complex (figure 8 type polygons) can be a bit trickier. it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave/multi outline algorithm, but not tremendously faster. i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors, and the convex turned out about 10% faster. this is all c (on hp pa-risc the compiler got the inner loop [shooting the span] as fast as possible, as far as i could tell). for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time, and can be made all convex. definitely the way to go. p.s. sorry but my code cannot be made public domain.... jesse lackey ** 3d/eye, inc., ithaca ny ** jesse@eye.com ** (607) 257-1381 
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 i am looking for some fast polygon routines (shaded or texture mapped) in asm (compile with masm) or in turbo pascal (compile with tp6). it has to be able to run on a 286, but does not have to look super fast on a 286, but must look good on a 386. if anyone has any such code could you please mail it to me. or tell me where it can be got. thanks in advance. daniel godden #genius is only one step away university of western sydney,nepean #from insanity! aarnet/internet:dgodden@st.nepean.usw.edu.au #but me, i am already there! 
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 to: saz@hook.corp.mot.com sz>does anybody know of a program that converts .gif files to .bmp files sz>and if so, where can i ftp it from? any help would be greatly sz>appreciated. sure... a great shareware program is graphic workshop (the newest version is 6.1). although i don't know where you can ftp it from. it also converts to about 15 other formats, and does many other things. ....r.c v.t.ell. .r... . deluxe./386 1.25 #959sa . my address: eric.vitiello@tfd.coplex.com 
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 hi, everyone. i am currently planning to write a program that traverses the image of handwritten characters in ascii format and produces circle and line representation of handwritten characters. did anybody out there has any experiences on this problem? if you have would you post or e-mail to please does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces circle and line kevin shin kshin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com 
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 due to a number of bugs in gks4.1 under sunos 4.1.3, i installed patches 100533-15 and 100755-01. patch 100533-15 appears to work fine and has fixed a number of problems. patch 100755-01, however, which is required to fix a number of other annoying bugs, breaks with our applications. is there a more recent revision of patch 10075? any other ideas? scott sloan email cesws@cc.newcastle.edu.au university of newcastle fax +61 49 216991 
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 |> hi, |> the subject says it all. is there a pd viewer for gl files (for x)? |> thanks |> dominik have you tried xgrasp? it's out there on several ftp sites.(not sure which, but archie can find it, i'm sure.) it works ok but it lacks an interface. -jason weiler <weilej@rpi.edu> 
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 speaking of psygnosis, they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd-i. and for the commodore cdtv. = regards = email: = 1280x512x262000+ = = mattias = matt-dah@dsv.su.se = i love it. = 
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 g'day all! does anyone know anything about front end for povray (x11 version)? i mean are there things like user friendly modeller for povray, or any modellers which will let me design a scene and produce a file which povray can then read? | /\ tm | | /--\tomek tpiatek@comp.vuw.ac.nz <-- new zealand | | /\ tm | | /--\tomek tpiatek@comp.vuw.ac.nz <-- new zealand | 
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 on wed, 21 apr 1993 08:29:03 gmt, se92psh@brunel.ac.uk (peter hauke) said: peter> : > does anyone have any other suggestions where the 42 came from? peter> yep, here's a theory that i once heard bandied around. rather than thinking peter> of the number think of the sound. for tea two. a sort of anagram on tea for two, peter> two for tea, for tea two. un other suggestion is there is no tea above! it just and for two many things are possible; think binary, + -, y/n, l/r, t/f no wonder there was eve for adam! peter> :-) malek :-) :-) "we cooperate in what we agree on, and forgive each other for that in which we disagree." hassan el banna. 
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 apollo (now hp) have a graphics board that does 80-bit graphics. when i heard that, i jumped. the answer isn't that it can do 100 trillion-trillion- trillion colors. it actually does 10 planes of 8-bits (or 5 planes of 16 bits, etc.) for very fast graphics. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38812">
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 hi! we have an old montage fr-1 35mm film recorder. when connected to a pc with its processor card it can directly take hpgl, targa and lasergraphics language files. 24 bit targa is quite ok for raster images, but conversion from whatever one happens to have can be quite slow. this lasergraphics language seems to be (got the source file for one test image) a vector-based language that can handle one million colors. it does some polygons too, and perhaps something else ? the question is, where can i find some information about this language ? a ftp site, a book, a company address,.... ? (ok, it would be nice to have a windows driver for it, but i'm not that optimistic...) thanks in advance for any help! jussi laaksonen computing centre / ]bo akademi university, finland 
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 hi! i need a windows 3.1 driver for the matrox pg-1281 cv svga card. at the moment windows runs only in the 640x480 mode. if you have a driver for this card, please send it with the oemsetup.inf to bockamp@informatik.tu-muenchen.de thanks! | florian bockamp ''' | | bockamp@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (o o) | +---------------------------------------------ooo--( )--ooo-------+ | "it's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature!" | 
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 i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm. something with code, or pseudo code would be especially i am required to do this for a class, due monday (we have very little time to implement these changes, it is a very fast paced class). the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired, so i would vastly appreciate any help. actually any algorithm would be nice (roberts or no). the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions, need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another. if you can give me an ftp address and filename, or even the name of a good book, i'd really appreciate it. g'day brian, i'll be blunt about this. the only reasonable explanation of roberts algorithm is in procedural elements for computer graphics mcgraw-hill book co. 1985 go to the library and look at this. there is also a somewhat muddled explanation in the first edition of newman and sproull. the algorithm described in pecg runs in near linear time. dave rogers 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38815">
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 how can one dump to the printer, the content of a vga screen. if it were a text screen, we can execute a shift printscr. but with graphics, we have to do a pixed by pixel print. it would be greatly appreciated if someone can supply source code for this. alternately, are there commercial or shareware programs that are available to do this. i must be able to shell out of my program to execute this print screen. therefore, it would be prefferable to have source code. thank you in advance rickey tom | internet style: aruba!rickt@uu2.psi.com programmer/analyst project ze | uucp : ...!uunet!uupsi2!aruba!rickt 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38817">
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 does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw (.cdr) files containing bitmaps to scodal, as this is the only format our bureau's filmrecorder recognises. corel draw will do it; version 2 onwards. if you have version 1 perhaps an upgrade is in order. another alternative would be to use a different bureau that can take postscript. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 |> looking for a graphics/cad/or-whatever package on a x-unix box that will |> take a file with records like: see roger grywalski's response to : re: help on network visualization in comp.graphics.visualization. could someone please post roger grywalski's response? or point me to where i could find it? thanks a lot, s. raj chaudhury | dept. of physics | raj@phys.ksu.edu kansas state university | manhattan, ks 66506 | s. raj chaudhury | dept. of physics | raj@phys.ksu.edu kansas state university | manhattan, ks 66506 | 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38820">
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 recent discussion about xv's problems were held in some newsgroup. here is some text users of xv might find interesting. (i have also minor ideas for 24bit xv, e-mail me for them.) [deleted for space; basically complaints that xv is an 8 bit program and that making several modifications to the rgb sliders is slow because of screen updates.] in reverse order: 1) try clicking in the auto-apply box to switch it off. then make your mods. then click on apply. there is no problem as stated; it has already been solved if you look carefully. 2) yes xv is an 8 bit program. this is not a bug. you can edit individual pallette entries or do global colour changes; crop, scale etc. clearly the program must save out the *altered* image else all your work would be thrown away. so yes it saves out 8 bit images - of course! xv can import 24 bit images and quantises them down to 8 bits. this is a handy facility, not a bug. how would you suggest doing colour editing on a 24 bit file? how would you group 'related' colours to edit them together? only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated. if you want to do colour editing on a 24 bit image, you need much more powerfull software - which is readily available commercially. and lastly, jpeg is a compression algorithm. it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth. again, this is not a bug. it is a way of saving disk space chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38821">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38821" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 reposted by request ... these images are great, but they are also large (1500x1500 pixels is a typical size). be warned. regards, tom lane newsgroups: comp.archives x-original-newsgroups: rec.arts.books x-original-date: 1 feb 1993 03:09:17 gmt archive-name: auto/rec.arts.books/vatican-library-exhibit-at-library-of-congress-online this is from another newsgroup; looks quite interesting... a new online exhibit the library of congress rome reborn: the vatican library & renaissance culture an exhibit at the library of congress washington, dc 20540 available by anonymous ftp from seq1.loc.gov (140.147.3.12) /pub/vatican.exhibit rome reborn: the vatican library and renaissance culture presents some 200 of the vatican library's most precious manuscripts, books, and maps--many of which played a key role in the humanist recovery of the classical heritage of greece and rome. the exhibition presents the untold story of the vatican library as the intellectual driving force behind the emergence of rome as a political and scholarly superpower during the renaissance. the exhibit will be on display in the jefferson building of the library of congress from january 8, 1993 through april 30, 1993. the online exhibit will be available by anonymous ftp indefinitely. the exhibit is divided into nine (9) sections: the vatican library, archaeology, humanism, mathematics, music, medicine & biology, nature described, a wider world i: how the orient came to rome, and a wider world ii: how rome went to china. each section consists of its own sub-directory within the /exhibit directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and separate jpeg image files for each object. this online exhibit includes not only objects from the library of congress exhibit, but also the alternate objects (brought from rome to be used if there were a problem with one of the primary objects) and items omitted later in the planning process. this exhibit will be of interest to medieval and renaissance scholars in particular, but also to art historians, historians of science or medicine, early music scholars, students of the humanist movement, students of printing and the printed word, theologians, scholars of both far and near eastern studies, and to librarians and information professionals. please get the readme file for details on what files this exhibit contains. if you have questions about how to use ftp, speak to your local computer support person. if you have questions or comments about the content of the exhibit, please write to vatican@kell.loc.gov while if you have any questions or comments on the system please contact me. -- k.d. ellis k.d. ellis special projects office library of congress washington, dc 20540-9100 internet: kell@seq1.loc.gov 
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 yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal. version 2 did it quite well, apart from a few hassles with radial fills. version 3 revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like "cannot export scodal with bitmap"- at least it does on my oh. ok then, sorry for misunderstanding. if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears. temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal, postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs $650 and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad maybee you should persuade your burea that for only $650 they can become much more competitive, taking input from autocad, postscript andgif as well as scodl... seriously, this sounds like something the bureau should have. or find another bureau. you should not be the one buting this software. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix/x/motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac. corel draw 4 will be able to do this as it will include the photopaint stuff that the pc version got with version 3. don't hold your breath though. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 i was recently talking to a possible employer ( mine! :-) ) and he made a reference to a 48-bit graphics computer/image processing system. i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that. anyway, he claimed it had 48-bit color + a 12-bit alpha channel. that's 60 bits of info--what could that possibly be for? specifically the 48-bit color? that's 280 trillion colors, many more than the human eye can resolve. is this an anti-aliasing thing? or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor. well 48 bit colour *could* be for improved resolution but 16 bits per channel seems like a bit excessive. i have seen a paper that quoted 10 bits per channel of 12 bits for computational precision. more than that would seem to be wasted. perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits to represent the full range - rgb is a cube so it is a compact encoding. most likely however is that there are two separate 24 bit (8 bits per component) frame buffers. this set up, called double buffering, allows a complex 3d picture to be built up on one buffer while the other buffer (containing the previous frame) is displayed. this makes for smoother animation. (sadly, i have access to none of them. just a dec 5000/25. sigh.) well hey if you want to brag about numbers, the 5000 range can take a pxg turbo+ card with 96 bits per pixel. full double buffering (two 24 bit buffers), a 24 bit z buffer and an extra 24 bit buffer for off screen image storage. mind you the card costs more than your workstation. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 i'm looking for a program which is able to display 24 bits images. we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x11. utah raster toolkit using getx11. convert your sun raster files (presumably) to ppm with the pbm+ toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which is provided in the toolkit. i seem to remember that xloadimage can do 24 bit servers too. possibly xwud the x window un-dump program can display 24 bit images; certainly xwd can grab them. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 i have some problem in converting tga file(generated by povray) to rle file. when i convert, i do not get any warning message. but if i use xloadimage/getx11, something is wrong. error messages are, % targatorle -o o.rle data.tga % xloadimage o.rle o.rle is a 0x0 24 bit rle image with no map (will dither to 8 bits), with gamma of 1.00 dithering image...done building ximage...done xloadimage: x error: badvalue (integer parameter out of range for operation) on 0x0 xloadimage: x error: badwindow (invalid window parameter) on 0xb00003 i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm, but i do not spend time to install them. even i do not want to generate .rgb from povray and then convert them to rle, if possible.(.rgb to rle works, but it will mess up my directory with so many files, and it needs 2 more steps to finally convert to rle file. say cat | rawtorle | rleflip ) does any body out there have same experience/problems ? thanks in advance, j. park 
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 i just donwloaded a *.bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format. does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos, mac or unix readable format. someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine - is this correct? could someone explain the .bin format a little? \|/--_ -_- ---- ### _- ---------------------- -0 -_- -- -__ %~- ____#0 _- elizabeth strickler |\ ^ 0\~ /\ /\ - |_(___/ \_ ||_________/ _/ |_/ \_ matess@gsusgi1.gsu.edu 
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 technion - israel institute of technology department of computer science graduate studies in computer graphics applications are invited for graduate students wishing to specialize in computer graphics and related fields. active research is being conducted in the fields of image rendering, geometric modelling and computer animation. state of the art graphics workstations (sun, silicon graphics) and video equipment are available. the technion offers full scholarship support (tuition and assistantships) for suitable candidates. for more information contact dr. craig gotsman computer science deptartment technion - israel institute of technology haifa 32000, israel gotsman@cs.technion.ac.il 
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 can some kind soul point me to references for the above formats? 
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 | hello, i've raytraced and rendered and the only difference i've found | is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer. am i missing something? yes. there are many methods of rendering, raytracing is one of them. you didn't say what you mean by rendering, so i won't guess. methods of rendering include: o pencil and graph paper, doing the math by hand o wireframe rendering of the 2d projection o hidden line rendering o scanline rendering using: - painter's algorithm. - bsp trees. - z buffer o raytracing o radiosity o holographic projection to film o combination of any of the above steve hollasch kubota pacific computer, inc. hollasch@kpc.com santa clara, california 
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 i just donwloaded a *.bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format. does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos, mac or unix readable format. someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine - is this correct? could someone explain the .bin format a little? this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved. you need a program that converts this to a regular file. if this is a macbinary file, you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt (if you did). if you're using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type "binary" first. if you can open the file with a text editor and find (this file must be converted with bin.... at the top, it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex 4.0 (among other programs). niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email: niko@iastate.edu iowa state university computation center voice: (515) 294-1672 ames ia 50011 snail: 291 durham 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38847">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38847" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying 24 bit images. all the viewers like xli, xloadimage and display are converting the 24 bit images to 8 bit before display them on the screen. what i really want is a viewer with make use of the 24 bit frame/screen buffer (in our case, the parallax one). thanks in advance. ps: we are using a sun sparc running x11. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38848">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38848" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 molecules has evolved from an esoteric academic subject into a international industry. computer graphics has played a decisive role in this transformation by allowing chemists to build, visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects. while computer scientists are conversant in the language of their own discipline, they are often unfamiliar with the terminology, simulation techniques and practical needs of research chemists. similarly, chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms and technological advances in graphical computing. this interdisciplinary course is intended to bridge the gap between computer science and chemistry and to equip chemistry researchers who wish to be more than just casual users of prepackaged graphics software. although this is not intended to be a course in computational chemistry or drug design, data sets from chemical research problems will be used in lab and students will be encouraged to bring data sets of their own. lab exercises and projects will be carried out using data-flow programming (ibm visualization data explorer software) and students will have access to cornell theory center computing resources, including video recording equipment. audience: researchers and students in the chemical and biological sciences interested in integrating state-of-the-art computer graphics into their research; computer scientists wishing to gain familiarity with a major application of scientific visualization. the class size will be limited to 25 participants on a first-come first-served basis. level: graduate/advanced undergraduate, 1 or 2 credits. may be taken without credit as a workshop. calculus, linear algebra and introductory chemistry required. familiarity with unix, x-windows and c is useful but not required. june 14-18, 1993 (1 or 0 credits) time: mon-fri 9:00 am to 12:00 pm and 1:00 pm to 4:00 pm cost: 0 or 1 credit $410 2 credits $820 the course will be held in the theory center training facility where computer workstations will be available. daily lectures will be interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will be provided for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing environment. students enrolled for one credit will be graded on the basis of their laboratory exercises and short final project. those enrolled for a second credit will receive more advanced lectures, be given more time for project development and meet daily to share experience and discuss problems encountered. content (may vary) elements of computer graphics polygonal rendering, lighting models, ray tracing, volumetric rendering, stereo graphics, animation, introduction to data-flow programming (dx), interactivity. representing the atom size, time and energy scales basic classical and quantum mechanics important categories of molecules small molecules, biopolymers, surfaces and catalysts, miscellaneous current applications data formats and conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types of simulation and experiment electronic structure, molecular dynamics/mechanics electrostatics, x-ray crystallography, nmr, quantum dynamics and spectroscopy. the course will be taught by two instructors. topics related to computer graphics will be handled by dr. bruce land, project leader of visualization, cornell national supercomputing facility. chemistry-specific aspects of the course will be handled by dr. richard e. gillilan, visualization specialist and research scientist, cornell national supercomputing facility to register: mail completed form to cornell university school of continuing education and summer sessions b20 day hall ithaca, ny 14853-2801 questions: richard gillilan (607) 254-8757 richard@tc.cornell.edu important: acceptance will be first-come, first-served and based on a target class size of 15 full-credit and 10 single or non-credit participants. deadline: may 20, 1993 ----------------------- application form ---------------------- scientific visualization of chemical systems chemistry 782 computer science 718 u.s. social security number (if available) _____ - ___ - _______ cornell id number (if available) ________________ name: _______________________________________________________________ last first middle suffix (jr, etc) address: _____________________________________________________________ home address (where grades will be mailed): local phone ________________ home phone _______________ academic discipline _____________________________ course number (check one): __ chemistry __ computer science credits: __.__ status: __ undergraduate student __ smart node consultant __ graduate student __ smart node advisor __ post-doctoral __ faculty __ other (explain) _______________ corporate commercial __ research staff __ other (explain) ______________ name of firm ___________________________________________________________ indicate which of the following best describes you (optional): __ african american __ alaskan native __ asian american __ caucasian __ hispanic american __ native american list special needs (e.g. mobility impaired): ____________________________ accommodations: blocks of rooms are available at the sheraton. reservations must be made no later than may 17. be sure to tell them you are here for the "cornell theory center visualization workshop". sheraton inn one sheraton drive, ithaca (607) 257-2000 fax: 607-257-398 rates starting at $64.00 other local motels (make your reservation early! our workshop coincides with other cornell events) econo lodge cayuga mall 2303 n. triphammer rd. ithaca (607) 257-1400 (800) 466-6900 fax: (607) 257-6359 rates from $35.10 (ask for the cornell rate) dorm rooms have also been reserved participants (both credit and non-credit). participants who are interested in dorm rooms should call (below) for registration information: jeanne miller (607) 254-8813 or donna smith (607) 254-8614 email: jeanne@tc.cornell.edu or donna@tc.cornell.edu 
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 archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part1 last-modified: 1993/04/27 computer graphics resource listing : weekly posting [ part 1/3 ] last change : 27 april 1993 many faqs, including this listing, are available on the archive site pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive-name line at the top of the article. this faq is archived as graphics/resources-list/part[1-3] there's a mail server on that machine. you send a e-mail message to mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (without quotes!) in the message body. you can see in many other places for this listing. see the item: 0. places to find the resource listing for more information. items changed: re-arranged the subjects, in order to fir better in the 63k/article limit. i plan on changing headers soon, so be careful! only the "resource listing" keys are sure to remain in the subject: line! 3. computer graphics ftp site list, by eric haines 4. mail servers and graphics-oriented bbses 9. plotting packages [ i'm thinking of making this post bi-weekly. what do you think??? ] lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them. added lines are prepended with a `+' removed lines are just removed. use 'diff' to locate these changes. this text is (c)copyright 1992, 1993 of nikolaos c. fotis. you can copy freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact. compiled by nikolaos (nick) c. fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr please contact me for updates,corrections, etc. disclaimer: i do not guarantee the accuracy of this document. use it at your own risk. this is mainly a guide for computer graphics software. i would suggest reading the comp. graphics faq for image analysis stuff. it's entitled: (date) comp.graphics frequently asked questions (faq) john t. grieggs <grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> is the poster of the official comp.graphics faq i have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'. nikolaos fotis contents of the resource listing part1: 0. places to find the resource listing 1. archie 2. notes 3. computer graphics ftp site list, by eric haines 4. mail servers and graphics-oriented bbses 5. ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists. 6. 3d graphics editors a. public domain, free and shareware systems b. commercial systems 7. scene description languages 8. solids description formats part2: 9. plotting packages 10. image analysis software - image processing and display part3: 11. scene generators/geographical data/maps/data files 12. 3d scanners - digitized 3d data. 13. background imagery/textures/datafiles 14. introduction to rendering algorithms a. ray tracing b. z-buffer (depth-buffer) c. others 15. where can i find the geometric data for the: a. teapot ? b. space shuttle ? 16. image annotation software 17. scientific visualization stuff 18. molecular visualization stuff 19. gis (geographical information systems software) future additions: [please send me updates/info!] 0. places to find the resource listing this file is crossposted to comp.graphics, comp.answers and news.answers, so if you can't locate it in comp.graphics, you're advised to search in comp.answers or news.answers (the latter groups usually are archived in your site. contact your sysadmin for more info). these 3 articles are posted to comp.graphics 3-4 times a month and are kept in many places (see below) many faqs, including this one, are available on the archive site pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive-name line at the top of the article. this faq is archived as graphics/resources-list/part[1-3] there's a mail server on that machine. you send a e-mail message to mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu containing: help in the subject: field the inria-graphlib mail server mirrors this posting (see under the subject 4: mail servers ) the resource listing is accesible through wais in the machine enuxva.eas.asu.edu (port 8000) under the name graphics-resources-list. it's got a digest-type line before every numbered item for purposes of another place that monitors the listing is the maasinfo files. for more info contact robert e. maas <rem@btr.com> yet another place to search for faqs in general is the switch (swiss academic and research network) system in switzerland: interactive: telnet nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40], login as "info". move to the info_service/usenet/periodic-postings directory. search in the 00index file by typing "/" and the word to look for. you may then just read the faq in the "faqs" directory, or decide to fetch it by one of the following methods. ftp: login to nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40] as user anonymous and enter your internet-style address after being prompted for a cd info_service/usenet/periodic-postings mail: send e-mail to rfc-822: archive-server@nic.switch.ch x.400: /s=archive-server/ou=nic/o=switch/prmd=switch/admd=arcom/c=ch/ enter 'help' in the bodypart to receive instructions. no information is required in the subject header line. 1. archie the archie is a service system to locate ftp places for requested files. it's appreciated that you will use archie before asking help in the newsgroups. archie servers: archie.au or 139.130.4.6 (aussie/nz) archie.funet.fi or 128.214.6.100 (finland/eur.) archie.th-darmstadt.de or 130.83.128.111 (ger.) cs.huji.ac.il or 132.65.6.5 (israel) archie.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp or 130.54.20.1 (japan) archie.sogang.ac.kr or 163.239.1.11 (korea) archie.ncu.edu.tw or telnet 140.115.19.24 (twn) archie.doc.ic.ac.uk or 146.169.3.7 (uk/ireland) archie.sura.net or 128.167.254.179 (usa [md]) archie.unl.edu (password: archie1) (usa [ne]) archie.ans.net or 147.225.1.2 (usa [ny]) archie.rutgers.edu or 128.6.18.15 (usa [nj]) archie.nz or 130.195.9.4 (new zealand) connect to archie server with telnet and type "archie" as username. to get help type 'help'. you can get 'xarchie' or 'archie', which are clients that call archie without the burden of a telnet session. 'xarchie' is on the x11.r5 contrib tape, and 'archie' on comp.sources.misc, vol. 27. to get information on how to use archie via e-mail, send mail with subject "help" to "archie" account at any of above sites. (note to janet/pss users -- the united kingdom archie site is accessible on the janet host doc.ic.ac.uk [000005102000]. connect to it and specify "archie" as the host name and "archie" as the username.) 2. notes (excerpted from the faq article) please do *not* post or mail messages saying "i can't ftp, could someone mail this to me?" there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message. there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system. you send a message to an automated server saying something like "send comp.sources.unix/fbm", and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail. 3. computer graphics ftp site list, by eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites (and maintainers), 22/04/93 compiled by eric haines, erich@eye.com and nick fotis, nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr ray-tracers: rayshade - a great ray tracer for workstations on up, also for pc, mac & amiga. pov - son and successor to dkb trace, written by compuservers. (for more questions call drew wells -- 73767.1244@compuserve.com or dave buck -- david_buck@carleton.ca) art - ray tracer with a good range of surface types, part of vort package. dkbtrace - another good ray tracer, from all reports; pcs, mac ii, amiga, unix, vms (last two with x11 previewer), etc. rtrace - portugese ray tracer, does bicubic patches, csg, 3d text, etc. etc. an ms-dos version for use with djgpp dos extender (go32) exists also, as a mac port. vivid2 - a shareware raytracer for pcs - binary only (286/287). author: stephen coy (coy@ssc-vax.boeing.com). the 386/387 (no source) version is available to registered users (us$50) direct from the author. ray4 - steve hollasch's 4-dimensional ray tracer - renders hyperspheres, hypertetrahedra, hyperplanes, and hyperparallelepipeds (there's a separate real-time wireframe viewer written in gl called wire4 ) . mtv,qrt,dbw - yet more ray tracers, some with interesting features. distributed/parallel raytracers: xdart - a distributed ray-tracer that runs under x11. there are server binaries which work only on decstations, sparcs, hp snakes (7x0 series) and next. the clients are distributed as binaries and c source. inetray - a network version of rayshade 4.0. needs sun rpc 4.0 or newer. contact andreas thurnherr (ant@ips.id.ethz.ch) prt, vm_pray - parallel ray tracers. volume renderers: vrend - cornell's volume renderer, from kartch/devine/caffey/warren (fortran). radiosity (and diffuse lighting) renderers: radiance - a ray tracer w/radiosity effects, by greg ward. excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation. unix/x based, though has been ported to the amiga and the pc (386). india - an indian radiosity package based on radiance. sgi_rad - an interactive radiosity package that runs on sgi machines with a spaceball. it includes a house database. author: guy moreillon <moreillo@ligsg1.epfl.ch> rad - a simple public-domain radiosity package in c. the solution can be run stand-alone on any unix box, but the walk-through requires a sgi 4d. author: bernard kwok <g-kwok@cs.yorku.ca> renderers which are not raytracers, and graphics libraries: sipp - scan line z-buffer and phong shading renderer. now uses the shadow buffer algorithm. tcl-sipp - a tcl command interface to the sipp rendering program. tcl-sipp is a set of tcl commands used to programmed sipp without having to write and compile c code. commands are used to specify surfaces, objects, scenes and rendering options. it renders either in ppm format or in utah raster toolkit rle format or to the photo widget in the tk-based x11 applications. vogle - graphics learning environment (device portable). vogl - an sgi gl-like library based on vogle. rend386 - a *fast* polygon renderer for intel 386s and up. version 2 on up. [ it's not photorealistic, but rather a real-time renderer] xsharp21 - dr. dobb's journal pc renderer source code, with budget texture modellers, wireframe viewers: vision-3d - mac modeler, can output radiance & rayshade files. irit - a csg solid modeler, with support for freeform surfaces. x3d - a wireframe viewer for x11. 3dv - 3-d wireframe graphics toolkit, with c source, 3dv objects, other stuff look at major pc archives like wuarchive. one such file is 3dkit1.zip pv3d - a shareware front end modeler for povray, still in beta test. french docs for now, price for registering 250 french francs. save disabled. some extra utilities, dxf files for the registered version. geometric viewers: salem - a gl-based package from dobkin et al. for exploring mathematical geomview - a gl-based package for looking and interactively manipulating 3d objects, from geometry center at minnesota. xyz geobench -(experimental geometry zurich) is a workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers. wire4 - gl wireframe previewer for steve hollasch's ray4 (see above) data formats and data sets for ray tracing: spd - a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers. nff - simplistic file format used by spd. off - another file format. p3d - a lispy file format. tddd - imagine (3d modeler) format, has converters for rayshade, nff, off, etc. also includes a nice postscript object displayer. some great models. ttdddlib - converts to/from tddd/ttddd, off, nff, rayshade 4.0, imagine, and vort 3d objects. also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript. registered users get a tex pk font converter and a superquadric surfaces generator. glenn lewis <glewis@pcocd2.intel.com> [note : ttdddlib is also known as t3dlib] chvrtd - chapel hill volume rendering test datasets, includes volume sets for two heads, a brain, a knee, electron density maps for rna and others. written material on rendering: rt news - collections of articles on ray tracing. rt bib - references to articles on ray tracing in "refer" format. rad bib - references to articles on radiosity (global illumination). speer rt bib - rick speer's cross-referenced rt bib, in postscript. rt abstracts - collection by tom wilson of abstracts of many rt articles. paper bank project - various technical papers in electronic form. contact juhana kouhia <jk87377@cs.tut.fi> online bibliography project : the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over 15,000 unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format, available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource. the database is located at "siggraph.org". users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline, or telnet to "siggraph.org" and log in as "biblio" and interactively search the database for entries of interest, by keyword. for the people without internet access, there's also an e-mail server. send mail to archive-server@siggraph.org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish. a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up-to-date list of available information. additions/corrections/suggestions may be directed to the admin, "bibadmin@siggraph.org". image manipulation libraries: utah raster toolkit - nice image manipulation tools. pbmplus - a great package for image conversion and manipulation. libtiff - library for reading/writing tiff images. imagemagick - x11 package for display and interactive manipulation of images. uses its own format (miff), and includes some converters. xv - x-based image display, manipulation, and format converter. xloadimage, xli - displays various formats on an x11 screen. khoros - a huge, excellent system for image processing, with a visual programming interface and much much more. uses x windows. fbm - another set of image manipulation tools, somewhat old now. img - image manipulation, displays on x11 screen, a bit old now. xflick - plays .fli animation under x11 xanim - plays any resolution fli along with gif's(including gif89a animation extensions), dl's and amiga iff animations(3,5,j,l) and iff pictures(including ham,ehb and color cycling) sdsc - sdsc image tools package (san diego supercomputing center) for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint - a 24-bit paint program for sgi 24bit workstations and 8bit indigos. libraries with code for graphics: graphics gems i,ii,iii - code from the ever so useful books. spline-patch.tar.z - spline patch ray intersection routines by sean graves kaleido - computation and 3d display of uniform polyhedra. mirrored in wuarchive. this package computes (and displays) the metrical properties of 75 polyhedra. author: dr. zvi har'el, e-mail: rl@gauss.technion.ac.il (*) means site is an "official" distributor, so is most up to date. north america (please look for things on your own continent first...): wuarchive.wustl.edu [128.252.135.4]: /graphics/graphics - get contents file for a roadmap. /graphics/graphics/objects/tddd - *the ttddd objects and converters*, /mirrors/unix-c/graphics - rayshade ray tracer, mtv ray tracer, vort ray tracer, fbm, pbmplus, popi, utah raster toolkit. /mirrors/msdos/graphics - dkb ray tracer, fli raytracker demos. /pub/rad.tar.z - *sgi_rad*, /graphics/graphics/radiosity - radiance and indian radiosity package. /msdos/ddjmag/ddj9209.zip - version 21 of xsharp, with fast texture mapping. there's lots more, including bibs, graphics gems i & ii code, off, rtn, radiance, nff, sipp, spline patch intersection routines, textbook errata, source code from roy hall's book "illumination and color in computer generated imagery", etc graphics/graphics/packages/kaleido - *kaleido* george kyriazis <kyriazis@turing.cs.rpi.edu> princeton.edu [128.112.128.1]: /pub/graphics (note capital "g") - *rayshade 4.0 ray tracer (and separate 387 executable)*, *color quantization code*, *spd*, *rt news*, *wilson's rt abstracts*, "rt bib*, *utah raster toolkit*, newer fbm, *graphics gems i, ii & iii code*. /pub/graphics directory - *salem* and other stuff. craig kolb <cek@princeton.edu> [replaces weedeater.math.yale.edu - note the capital "g" in pub/graphics] because there's a trouble with princeton's incoming area, you can upload rayshade-specific stuff to weedeater.math.yale.edu [128.36.23.17] alfred.ccs.carleton.ca [134.117.1.1]: /pub/dkbtrace - *dkb ray tracer*, /pub/pov-ray/pov-ray1.0 - *pvray compuserve group ray tracer (or pov)*. david buck <david_buck@carleton.ca> avalon.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.31.11]: 3d objects (multiple formats), utilities, file format documents. this site was created to be a 3d object "repository" for the net. francisco x dejesus <dejesus@archimedes.chinalake.navy.mil> omicron.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.159]: pub/softlab/chvrtd - chapel hill volume rendering test datasets. ftp.mv.com [192.80.84.1]: - official ddj ftp repository. *xsharp* peipa.essex.ac.uk [155.245.115.161]: the pilot european image processing archive; in a directory ipa/synth or something like that, there are image synthesis packages. adrian clarke <alien@essex.ac.uk> barkley.berkeley.edu [128.32.142.237] : tcl/extensions/tsipp3.0b.tar.z - *tcl-sipp* mark diekhans <markd@grizzly.com or markd@neosoft.com> acs.cps.msu.edu [35.8.56.90]: pub/sass - *x window fonts converter into rayshade 3.0 polygons*, rayshade animation tool(s). ron sass <sass@cps.msu.edu> hobbes.lbl.gov [128.3.12.38]: *radiance* ray trace/radiosity package. greg ward <gjward@lbl.gov> geom.umn.edu [128.101.25.31] : pub/geomview - *geomview* contact (for geomview): software@geom.umn.edu ftp.arc.umn.edu [137.66.130.11] : pub/gvl.tar.z - the latest version of bob, icol and raz. source, a manual, man pages, and binaries for irix 4.0.5 are included (bob is a real time volume renderer) pub/ contains also many volume datasets. ken chin-purcell <ken@ahpcrc.umn.edu> ftp.kpc.com [144.52.120.9] : /pub/graphics/holl91 - steve hollasch's thesis, /pub/graphics/ray4 - *ray4*, /pub/graphics/wire4 - *wire4*. /pub/mirror/avalon - mirror of avalon's 3d objects repository. steve hollasch <hollasch@kpc.com> swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] : programs/hollasch-4d - ray4, sgi explorer modules and postscript manual, etc. zamenhof.cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.75] : pub/graphics.formats - various electronic documents about many object and image formats. mark hall <foo@cs.rice.edu> will apparently no longer be maintaining it, see ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. rascal.ics.utexas.edu [128.83.144.1]: /misc/mac/inqueue - vision-3d facet based modeller, can output rayshade and radiance files. ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50] : misc/file.formats/graphics.formats - contains various image- and object-format descriptions. many scivi tools in various directories, e.g. sgi/alpha-shape/alvis-1.0.tar.z - 3d alpha-shape visualizer (sgi machines only), sgi/polyview3.0/polyview.z - interactive visualization and analysis of 3d geometrical structures. quincey koziol <koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu> tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1] : /iraf - the iraf astronomy package ftp.ipl.rpi.edu [128.113.14.50]: sigma/erich - spd images and haines thesis images. pub/images - various 24 and 8 bit image stills and sequences. kevin martin <sigma@ipl.rpi.edu> ftp.psc.edu [128.182.66.148]: pub/p3d - p3d_2_0.tar p3d lispy scene language & renderers. joel welling <welling@seurat.psc.edu> ftp.ee.lbl.gov [128.3.254.68]: *pbmplus.tar.z*, rayshade data files. jef poskanzer <jef@ace.ee.lbl.gov> george.lbl.gov [128.3.196.93]: pub/ccs-lib/ccs.tar.z - *ccs (complex conversion system), a standard software interface for image processing* hanauma.stanford.edu [36.51.0.16]: /pub/graphics/comp.graphics - best of comp.graphics (very extensive), ray-tracers - dbw, mtv, qrt, and more. joe dellinger <joe@hanauma.stanford.edu> ftp.uu.net [192.48.96.2]: /graphics - *irit*, rt news back issues (not complete), nurbs models, other graphics related material. /graphics/jpeg/jpegsrc.v?.tar.z - independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files. freebie.engin.umich.edu [141.212.68.23]: *utah raster toolkit*, spencer thomas <thomas@eecs.umich.edu> export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] : /contrib - pbmplus, image magick, xloadimage, xli, xv, img, lots more. /pub/r5untarred/mit/demos/gpc - ncga graphics performance characterization (gpc) suite. life.pawl.rpi.edu [128.113.10.2]: /pub/ray - *kyriazis stochastic ray tracer*. george kyriazis <kyriazis@turing.cs.rpi.edu> cs.utah.edu [128.110.4.21]: /pub - utah raster toolkit, *nurbs databases*. jamie painter <jamie@cs.utah.edu> gatekeeper.dec.com [16.1.0.2]: /pub/dec/off.tar.z - *off models*, also gpc benchmark files (planned, but not checked). randi rost <rost@kpc.com> hubcap.clemson.edu [130.127.8.1]: /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine - stuff for the amiga imagine & turbo silver ray tracers. /pub/amiga/ttdddlib - *ttdddlib* /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine/objects - many objects. glenn lewis <glewis@pcocd2.intel.com> pprg.eece.unm.edu [129.24.24.10]: /pub/khoros - *khoros image processing package (huge, but great)*. danielle argiro <danielle@bullwinkle.unm.edu> expo.lcs.mit.edu [18.30.0.212]: contrib - *pbmplus portable bitmap package*, *poskbitmaptars bitmap collection*, *raveling img*, xloadimage. jef poskanzer <jef@well.sf.ca.us> venera.isi.edu [128.9.0.32]: */pub/img.tar.z and img.tar.z - some image manipulation*, /pub/images - rgb separation photos. paul raveling <raveling@venera.isi.edu> ucsd.edu [128.54.16.1]: /graphics - utah rle toolkit, pbmplus, fbm, databases, mtv, dbw and other ray tracers, world map, other stuff. not updated much recently. castlab.engr.wisc.edu [128.104.52.10]: /pub/x3d.2.2.tar.z - *x3d* /pub/xdart.1.1.* - *xdart* mark spychalla <spy@castlab.engr.wisc.edu> sgi.com [192.48.153.1]: /graphics/tiff - tiff 6.0 spec & *libtiff* software and pics. also much sgi- and gl-related stuff (e.g. opengl manuals) sam leffler <sam@sgi.com> [supercedes okeeffe.berkeley.edu for the libtiff stuff] surya.waterloo.edu [129.97.129.72]: /graphics - fbm, ray tracers ftp.sdsc.edu [132.249.20.22]: /sdscpub - *sdsc* ftp.brl.mil [128.63.16.158]: /brl-cad - information on how to get the brl cad package & ray tracer. /images - various test images. a texture library has also begun here. lee a. butler <butler@brl.mil> cicero.cs.umass.edu [128.119.40.189]: /texture_temp - 512x512 grayscale brodatz textures, from julien flack <julien@scs.leeds.ac.uk>. karazm.math.uh.edu [129.7.7.6]: pub/graphics/rtabs.shar.12.90.z - *wilson's rt abstracts*, vm_pray. j. eric townsend <jet@karazm.math.uh.edu or jet@nas.nasa.gov> ftp.pitt.edu [130.49.253.1]: /users/qralston/images - 24 bit image archive (small). james ralston crawford <qralston@gl.pitt.edu> ftp.tc.cornell.edu [128.84.201.1]: /pub/vis - *vrend* sunee.waterloo.edu [129.97.50.50]: /pub/raytracers - vivid, *rend386* [or sunee.uwaterloo.ca] archive.umich.edu [141.211.164.153]: /msdos/graphics - pc graphics stuff. /msdos/graphics/raytrace - vivid2. apple.apple.com [130.43.2.2?]: /pub/archivevol2/prt. research.att.com [192.20.225.2]: /netlib/graphics - *spd package*, ~/polyhedra - *polyhedra databases*. (if you don't have ftp, use the netlib automatic mail replier: uucp - research!netlib, internet - netlib@ornl.gov. send one line message "send index" for more info, "send haines from graphics" to get the spd) siggraph.org [128.248.245.250]: siggraph archive site. publications - *online bibliography project*, conference proceedings in various electronic formats (papers, panels), siggraph video review information and order forms. other stuff in various directories. automatic mailer is archive-server@siggraph.org ("send index"). ftp.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159]: pub/reaction_diffusion - greg turk's work on reaction-diffusion textures, x windows code (siggraph '91) avs.ncsc.org [128.109.178.23]: ~ftp/volvis92 - volume datasets from the boston workshop on volume visualization '92. this site is also the international avs center. terry myerson <tvv@ncsc.org> uvacs.cs.virginia.edu [128.143.8.100]: pub/suit/demo/{sparc,dec,etc} - suit (simple user interface toolkit). "finger suit@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu" to get detailed instructions. nexus.yorku.ca [130.63.9.66]: /pub/reports/radiosity_code.tar.z - *rad* /pub/reports/radiosity_thesis.ps.z - *rad msc. thesis* [this site will be changed to ftp.yorku.ca in the near future] milton.u.washington.edu [128.95.136.1] - ~ftp/public/veos - veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix. veos software support : veos-support@hitl.washington.edu oldpublic/fly - fly! 3d visualization software demo. that package is built for "fly-throughs" from various datasets in near real-time. there are binaries for many platforms. also, much other virtual reality stuff. zug.csmil.umich.edu [141.211.184.2]: x-xpecs 3d files (an lcd glass shutter for amiga computers - great for vr stuff!) sugrfx.acs.syr.edu [128.230.24.1]: various stereo-pair images. [ has closed down :-( ] sunsite.unc.edu [152.2.22.81]: /pub/academic/computer-science/virtual-reality - final copy of the sugrfx.acs.syr.edu archive that ceased to exist. it contains powerglove code, vr papers, 3d images and irc research jonathan magid <jem@sunsite.unc.edu> archive.cis.ohio-state.edu [128.146.8.52]: pub/siggraph92 - code for siggraph '92 course 23 (procedural modeling and rendering techniques) dr. david s. ebert <ebert@cis.ohio-state.edu> lyapunov.ucsd.edu [132.239.86.10]: this machine is considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics, signal processing, and related subjects (and fractals, of course!) matt kennel <mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu> cod.nosc.mil [128.49.16.5]: /pub/grid.{ps,tex,ascii} - a short survey of methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data ics.uci.edu [128.195.1.1]: /honig --- various stereo-pair images, movie.c - animates a movie on an x display (8-bit and mono) with digital subtraction. taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil [131.120.1.13]: pub/dabro/cyberware_demo.tar.z - human head data pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217]: pub/texture_maps - hans du buf's grayscale test textures (aerial swatches, brodatz textures, synthetic swatches). space & planetary image repository. provides access to >150 cd-roms with data/images (3 on-line at a time). pub/info/beginner-info - here you should start browsing. colby kraybill <opus@pioneer.unm.edu>. cs.brown.edu [128.148.33.66] : *srgp/sphigs* . for more info on srgp/sphigs: mail -s 'software-distribution' graphtext@cs.brown.edu pdb.pdb.bnl.gov [130.199.144.1] has data about various organic molecules, bonds between the different atoms, etc. atomic coordinates (and a load of other stuff) are contained in the "*.ent" files, but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing. you could convert these data to pov, rayshade, etc. biome.bio.ns.ca [142.2.20.2] : /pub/art - some renoir paintings, escher's pictures, etc. ic16.ee.umanitoba.ca [] : /specmark - sample set of images from the `images from the edge' cd-rom (images of atomic landscapes, advanced semiconductors, superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others). contact ruskin@ee.umanitoba.ca explorer.dgp.toronto.edu [128.100.1.129] : pub/sgi/clrpaint - *clrpaint* pub/sgi/clrview.* - clrview, a tool that aids in visualization of gis datasets in may formats like dxf, dem, arc/info, etc. ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/space/cdrom - images from magellan and viking missions etc. get pub/space/index first. pub/spacelink has most of the spacelink service data (see below) e-mail server available: send mail to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server) with subject:"help" or "send space index" (without the quotes!) peter yee <yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov> pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.6.2]: images, other data, etc. from jpl missions. modem access at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1 stop bit). newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170 spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov [128.158.13.250] (passwd:guest) : space graphics and gif images from nasa's planetary probes and the hubble telescope. main function is support for teachers (you can telnet also to this site). dial up access: (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(v.32) baud, 8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit). stsci.edu [130.167.1.2] : hubble space telescope stuff (images and other data). read the readme first! pete reppert <reppert@stsci.edu> or chris o'dea <odea@stsci.edu> pit-manager.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]: /pub/usenet/news.answers - the land of faqs. graphics and pictures directories of particular interest. [also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail message containing: help] uucp archive: avatar - rt news back issues. for details, write kory hamzeh <kory@avatar.avatar.com> europe: nic.funet.fi [128.214.6.100]: *pub/sci/papers - *paper bank project, including pete shirley's entire thesis (with pics)*, *wilson's rt abstracts*, pub/misc/cia_worldmap - cia world data bank, comp.graphics.research archive, *india*, and much, much more. juhana kouhia <jk87377@cs.tut.fi> dasun2.epfl.ch [128.178.62.2]: radiance. good for european sites, but doesn't carry the add-ons that are available for radiance. isy.liu.se [130.236.1.3]: pub/sipp/sipp-3.0.tar.z - *sipp* scan line z-buffer and phong shading renderer. jonas yngvesson <jonas-y@isy.liu.se> irisa.fr [131.254.2.3]: */ipsc2/vm_pray ray tracer*, spd, /nff - many non-spd nff format scenes, rayshade data files. didier badouel <badouel@irisa.irisa.fr> [may have disappeared] phoenix.oulu.fi [130.231.240.17]: *fli raytracker animation files (pc vga) - also big .flis (640*480)* *rayscene demos* [americans: check wuarchive first]. more animations to come. jari kahkonen <hole@phoenix.oulu.fi> jyu.fi [128.214.7.5]: /pub/graphics/ray-traces - many ray tracers, including vm_pray, dbw, dkb, mtv, qrt, rayshade, some rt news, nff files. jari toivanen <toivanen@jyu.fi> garbo.uwasa.fi [128.214.87.1]: much pc stuff, etc., /pc/source/contour.f - fortran program to contour scattered data using linear triangle-based asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17]: pub/rtrace - *rtrace* nffutils.tar.z (nff utilities for rtrace), medical data (cat, etc.) converters to nff, autocad to nff autolisp code, autocad 11 to scn (rtrace's language) converter and other goodies. antonio costa (acc@asterix.inescn.pt) vega.hut.fi [128.214.3.82]: /graphics - rtn archive, ray tracers (mtv, qrt, others), nff, some models. [ it was shut down months ago , check under nic.funet.fi -- nfotis ] sun4nl.nluug.nl [192.16.202.2]: /pub/graphics/raytrace - dbw.microray, mtv, etc unix.hensa.ac.uk [] : misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.z - cgm viewer and there's an e-mail server also - mail to archive@unix.hensa.ac.uk with the message body "send misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.z" maeglin.mt.luth.se [130.240.0.25]: graphics/raytracing - prt, others, ~/doc - *wilson's rt abstracts*, vivid. ftp.fu-berlin.de [130.20.225.2]: /pub/unix/graphics/rayshade4.0/inputs - aq.tar.z is rayshade aquarium [americans: check princeton.edu first). heiko schlichting <heiko@math.fu-berlin.de> maggia.ethz.ch [129.132.17.1]: pub/inetray - *inetray* and sun rpc 4.0 code andreas thurnherr <ant@ips.id.ethz.ch> osgiliath.id.dth.dk [129.142.65.24]: /pub/amiga/graphics/radiance - *amiga port of radiance 2.0*. per bojsen <bojsen@ithil.id.dth.dk> ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de [134.106.1.9] : *pov raytracer* mirrored in wuarchive, has many goods for pov. pub/dkbtrace/incoming/polyray - polyray raytracer pub/dkbtrace/incoming/pv3d* - *pv3d* ftp.uni-kl.de [131.246.9.95]: /pub/amiga/raytracing/imagine - mirror of the hubcap imagine files. neptune.inf.ethz.ch [129.132.101.33]: xyz - *xyz geobench* peter schorn <schorn@inf.ethz.ch> iamsun.unibe.ch [130.92.64.10]: /graphics/graphtal* - a l-system interpreter. christoph streit <streit@iam.unibe.ch> amiga.physik.unizh.ch [130.60.80.80]: /amiga/gfx - graphics stuff for the amiga computer. stesis.hq.eso.org [134.171.8.100]: on-line access to a huge astronomical database. (login:starcat;no passwd) decnet:stesis (it's the space telescope european coordination facility) benoit pirenne <bpirenne@eso.org>, phone +49 89 320 06 433 middle east gauss.technion.ac.il [132.68.112.60]: *kaleida* australia: gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.70.62]: pub - *vort(art) ray tracer*, *vogle*, wilson's ray tracing abstracts, /pub/contrib/artscenes (art scenes from italy), pub/images/haines - haines thesis images, graphics gems code, spd, nff & off databases, nff and off previewers, plus some 8- and 24bit images and lots of other stuff. pub/rad.tar.z - *sgi_rad* bernie kirby <bernie@ecr.mu.oz.au> munnari.oz.au [128.250.1.21]: pub/graphics/vort.tar.z - *vort (art) 2.1 csg and algebraic surface ray tracer*, *vogle*, /pub - dbw, pbmplus. /graphics - room.tar.z (art scenes from italy). david hook <dgh@munnari.oz.au> marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au [134.7.1.1]: pub/graphics/bibliography/facial_animation, pub/graphics/bibliography/morph, pub/graphics/bibliography/ui - stuff about facial animation, morphing and user interfaces. pub/fascia - fred parke's fascia program. valerie hall <val@lillee.cs.curtin.edu.au> oceania - asia: #ccu1.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.3.1]: ftp/mac/architec - *vision-3d facet based modeller, can output rayshade files*. many other neat things # for macs. paul bourke <pdbourke@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz> +[ for users outside nz - go to wuarchive.wustl.edu, directory + /mirrors/architec ] scslwide.sony.co.jp [133.138.199.1]: ftp2/sgi/facial-animation - steve franks site for facial animation. steve franks <stevef@csl.sony.co.jp or stevef@cs.umr.edu> 4. mail servers and graphics-oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above, with archie's help. don't overuse mail servers. there are some troubles with wrong return addresses. many of these mail servers have a command like path a_valid_return_e-mail_address to get a hint for sending back to you stuff. dec's ftpmail send a one-line message to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com without a subject: field, and having a line containing the word 'help'. you should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow in order to get the files you want. note that the "reply" or "answer" command in your mailer will not work for this message or any other mail you receive from ftpmail. to send requests to ftpmail, send an original mail message, not a reply. complaints should be sent to the ftpmail-request@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com address rather than to postmaster, since decwrl's postmaster is not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems. for bitnet sites only, there's bitftp@pucc. send a one-line 'help' message to this address for more info. +red + red - listserv redirector is essentially a mail server. + the server sites that are available are: + location earn/bitnet internet + in turkey: trickle@trearn trickle@ege.edu.tr + in denmark: trickle@dktc11 + in italy: trickle@imipoli + in belgium: trickle@banufs11 trickle@ufsia.ac.be + in austria: trickle@awiwuw11 + in germany: trickle@ds0rus1i trickle@rusvm1.rus.uni-stuttgart.de + in israel: trickle@taunivm trickle@vm.tau.ac.il + in netherlands: trickle@hearn trickle@hearn.nic.surfnet.nl + in france: trickle@frmop11 trickle@frmop11.cnusc.fr + in colombia: trickle@unalcol trickle@unalcol.unal.edu.co + in taiwan: trickle@twnmoe10 trickle@twnmoe10.edu.tw + you are urged to use the one that is closer to your location. + send a message to one of these containing the body + /help + and you'll get more instructions. lightwave 3d mail based file-server a mail based file server for 3d objects, 24bit jpeg images, gif images and image maps is now online for all those with internet mail access. the server is the official archive site for the lightwave 3d mail-list and contains many pd and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga, atari, ibm and macintosh. the server resides on a bbs called "the graphics bbs". the bbs is operational 24 hours a day 7 days a week at the phone number of +1 908/469-0049. it has upgraded its modem to a hayes ultra 144 v.32bis/v.42bis, which has speeds from 300bps up to 38,400bps. if you would like to submit objects, scenes or images to the server, please pack, uuencode and then mail the files to the address: server@bobsbox.rent.com. for information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message to the address file-server@graphics.rent.com with the following in the body of the message: /dir and a help file describing how to use the server and a complete directory listing will be sent to you via mail. [ now it includes the cyberware head and shouders in ttddd format! check it out, only if you can't use ftp! -- nfotis ] inria-graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria-graphlib mail server a few months ago. echo help | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr will give you a quick summary of what inria-graphlib contains and how to browse among its files. echo send contents | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr will return the extended summary. as an other example : echo send cgrl from misc | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp.graphics. there are many bbses that store datafiles, etc.etc., but a guide to these is beyond the scope of this listing (and the resources of the author!) if you can point to me internet- or mail- accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff, send me info! studio amiga is a 3d modelling and ray tracing specific bbs, (817) 467-3658. 24 hours, 105 meg online. from jeff walkup <pwappy@well.sf.ca.us>: "the castle" 415/355-2396 (14.4k/v.32bis/v.42/v.42bis/mnp) (in pacifica, dang close to san francisco, california, usa) the new-user password is: "tao". [j]oin base #2; the castle g/fx, anim, video, 3d s.i.g., of which i am the sig-op, "lazerus". bob lindabury operates a bbs (see above the entry for "the graphics bbs") 'you can call me ray' ray tracing related bbs in chicago suburbs (708-358-5611) or (708-358-8721) digital pixel (sysop: mark ng <mcng@descartes.waterloo.edu>) is based at toronto, ontario, canada. phone : (416) 298 1487 storage space: 330 megs modem type: 14.4k baud,16.8k (zyxel) , v32bis ,v32, mnp 5 access fee: none.. (free) system supported : dos, os/2, amiga, mac. netmail: currently no echo mail. topics: raytracing, fractals, graphics programming, cad, any comp. graphics related amiga graphics bbs (516) 473-6351 in long island, new york, running 24 hours at 14.4k v.32bis, with 157 megs on line. we also subscribe to 9 mailing lists, of which 5 originate from our bbs, with 3 more to be added soon. these include: lightwave, imagine, real 3d (ray tracing) database files include: imagine 3d objects, 3d renderings, scalable fonts, music modules, sound samples, demos, animations, utilities, text databases, and pending lightwave 3d objects. the graphics alternative the graphics alternative is in el cerrito, ca., running 24 hours a day at 14.4k hst/v.32bis, with 642mb online and a 1300+ user base. tga runs two nodes, node 1 (510) 524-2780 is for public access and includes a free 90 day trial subscription. tga is the west coast host for pcgnet, the profesional cad and graphics network, supporting nodes across the continental u.s., alaska, new zealand, australia, france and the uk. tga's file database includes ms-dos executables for pov, vivid, rtrace, rayshade, polyray, and others. tga also has numerous graphics utilities, viewers, and conversion utilities. registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from a special vivid conference. the intersection bbs, 410-250-7149. this bbs is dedicated to supporting 3d animators.the system is provided free of charge, and is not commercialized in anyway. users are given full access on the first call. features: usenet news & internet mail, fidonet echo's & netmail, 200 megs online, v.32bis/v.42bis modem. platforms of interest: amiga & the videotoaster, macintosh, ms-dos, unix workstations (sun, sgi, etc), atari-st. pi square bbs (301)725-9080 in maryland. it supports raytracers such as pov and vivid. the bbs runs off a 486/33mhz, 100megs hard drive and cd rom. now it runs on 1200-2400bps (this will change soon) topics: graphics programming, animation,raytracing,programming (general) vertech design's graphic connection. (503) 591-8412 in portland, oregon. v.32/v.42bis. the bbs, aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases ( all topic specific ) and files ( cad and graphics related -- hundreds of megabytes ), also offers material texture files that are full color, seamlessly tiling, photo-realistic images. there are samples available to first time callers. the bbs is a subscription system although callers have 2 hours before they must subscribe, and there are several subscription rates available. people interested in materials can subscribe to the library in addition to a basic subscription rate, and can use their purchased time to download whichever materials they wish. 5. ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists modeling and animation system for the amiga: send subscription requests to imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com send material to imagine@email.sp.paramax.com (dave wickard has substituted steve worley in the maintenance of the mailing list) - please note that the unisys.com address is no longer valid!!! (for the amiga. it's part of newtek's video toaster): send subscription requests to lightwave-request@bobsbox.rent.com send material to lightwave@bobsbox.rent.com (bob lindabury) send subscription requests to listserv@karazm.math.uh.edu with a *body* of: subscribe toaster-list real 3d another modeling and animation system for the amiga: to subscribe, send a mail containing the body subscribe real3d-l <your full name> to listserv@gu.uwa.edu.au send subscription requests to rayshade-request@cs.princeton.edu send material to rayshade-users@cs.princeton.edu (craig kolb) alladin 4d for the amiga send subscription requests to subscribe@xamiga.linet.org and in the body of the message write #alladin 4d username@domain greg ward, the author, sends to registered (via e-mail) users digests of his correspodence with them, notes about fixes, updates, etc. his address is: gjward@lbl.gov send subscription requests to rend386-request@sunee.waterloo.edu send material to rend386@sunee.waterloo.edu pov ray / dkb raytracers to subscribe, send a mail containing the body subscribe dkb-l <your full name> to listserv@trearn.bitnet send material to dkb-l@trearn.bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests to mp-render-request@icase.edu send material to mp-render@icase.edu 6. 3d graphics editors a. public domain, free and shareware systems vision-3d mac-based program written by paul d. bourke (pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz). the program can be used to generate models directly in the rayshade and radiance file formats (polygons only). it's shareware and listed on the ftp list. a solid modeling system for most environments -- including sgi and x11. it has csg and nurbs, plus support for non-manifold geometry [whatever it is]. you can get it *free* via ftp by signing and returning the relevant license, found on ftp.brl.mil. uses ray-tracing for engineering analyses. contact: ms. carla moyer (410)-273-7794 tel. (410)-272-6763 fax cad-dist@brl.mil e-mail snail mail: brl-cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office 1003 old philadelphia road, suite 103 aberdeen md 21001 usa a constructive solid geometry (csg) modeling program for pc and x11. includes freeform surface support. free - see ftp list for where to find it. a solid modeling program for pc written in turbo pascal 6.0 by ken van camp. available from simtel, pd1:<msdos.srfmodl> directory. from cmu, namely fritz printz and levent gursoz (elg@styx.edrc.cmu.edu). it's based on non manifold topology. ask them for more info, i don't know if they give it away. xyz2 is an interactive 3-d editor/builder written by dale p. stocker to create objects for the surfacemodel, automove, and dkb raytracer packages. xyz2 is free and can be found, for example, in simtel20 as <msdos.surfmodl>xyz21.zip (dos only??) it's an msdos program. check at barnacle.erc.clarkson.edu [128.153.28.12], /pub/msdos/graphics/3dmod.* . undocumented file format :-( 3dmod is (c) 1991 by micah silverman, 25 pierrepoint ave., postdam, new york 13676, tel. 315-265-7140 shareware, <msdos.cad>ncad3d42.zip in simtel20. undocumented file format :-( (amiga) shareware, send $40 us (check or money order) to: the art machine, 4189 nickolas sterling heights, mi 48310 in addition to the now standard file formats, including lightwave, imagine, sculpt, turbo silver, geo and wavefront, this release offers 3d professional and rayshade support. (rayshade is supported only by the primitive "triangle", but you can easily include this output in your rayshade scripts) the latest demo, version 1.62, is available on fred fish #727. for more information, contact the author, alex deburie, at: ad99s461@sycom.mi.org, phone: (313) 939-2513 (amiga) it's a spline based object modeller ("icoons" = interactive coons path editor) in amiga.physik.unizh.ch (gfx/3d/icoons1.0.lzh). it's free (under the gnu licence) and requires fpu. the program has a look&feel which is a cross between journeyman and imagine, and it generates objects in ttddd format. it is possible to load journeyman objects into icoons, so the program can be used to convert jman objects to imagine format. author: helge e. rasmussen <her@compel.dk> phone + 45 36 72 33 00, fax + 45 36 72 43 00 [ it's also on fred fish disk series n.775 - nfotis ] protocad 3d ver 1.1 from trius (shareware?) it's at wsmr-simtel20.army.mil and oak.oakland.edu as pcad3d.zip (for pcs) it has this menu layout: file file handling (load, save, import, xport...) draw draw 2d objects (line, circle, box...) 3d draw 3d objects (mesh, sphere, block...) edit editing features (copy, move ...) surface modify objects (revolve, xtrude, sweep...) image image zooming features (update, window, half...) option global defaults (grid, toggles, axis...) plot print drawing/picture (go, image...) render shade objects (frame, lighting, tune...) layer layer options (select active layer, set colors...) runs under windows 3.1, and outputs pov files. a demo can be found on wuarchive.wustl.edu in mirrors/win3/demo/demo3d.zip author: michael gibson <gibsonm@stein.u.washington.edu> b. commercial systems a spline-based modeling program written in university of utah. features: splines up to trimmed nurbs; support for boolean operations; sweeps, bending, warping, flattening etc.; groups of objects, and transformations; extensible object types. applications include: nc machining, animation utilities, dimensioning, fem analysis, etc. rendering subsystem, with support for animations. support the following platforms: hp 300 and 800's (x11r4, hp-ux 6.5), sgi 4d or pi machines (x11r4 and gl, irix 3.3.1), sun sparcstation (x11r4, sunos 4.1.1). licensing and distribution is handled by egs: glenn mcminn, president engineering geometry systems 275 east south temple, suite 305 salt lake city, ut 84111 (801) 575-6021 mcminn@cs.utah.edu [ educational pricing ] the charge is $675 per platform. you may run the system on as many different workstations of that type as you wish. for each platform there is also a $250 licensing fee for portable standard lisp (psl) which is bundled with the system. you need to obtain an additional license from the university of utah for psl from the following address: professor robert kessler computer science department university of utah salt lake city, utah 84112 [ egs can handle the licensing of psl for u.s. institutions for a 300 $usd nominal fee -- nfotis ] they have an educational institution program. the package is used in the industrial design, architectural, scientific visualization, educational, broadcast, imaging and post production fields. they'll [quoting from a letter sent to me -- nfotis ] "donate fully configured vertigo 3d graphics software worth over $29,000usd per package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any number of silicon graphics personal iris or power series workstations. if you use an iris indigo station, we will also licence our vertigo revolution software (worth $12,000usd). if you are interested in participating in this program please send a letter by mail or fax (604/684-2108) on your institution's letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information: 1. unix version 2. model and number of sgi systems 3. peripheral devices 4. third party software. participants will be asked to contribute $750usd per institution to cover costs of the manual, administration, and shipping. we recommend that vertigo users subscribe to our technical support services. for an annual fee you will receive: technical assistance on our support hotline, bug fixes, software upgrades and manual updates. for educational institution we will waive the $750 administration fee if support is purchased. the annual support fee is $2,500 plus the following cost for additional machines: number of machines: 2-20 20+ additional cost per machine: $700 $600 " [ there's also a 5-day training program - nfotis] contact: vertigo technology inc suite 1010 1030 west georgia st. vancouver, bc canada, v6e 2y3 phone: 604/684-2113 fax: 604/684-2108 [ does anyone know of such offers from tdi, alias, softimage, wavefront, etc.??? this would be a very interesting part!! -- nfotis ] padl-2 [ basically, it's a solid modeling kernel in top of which you build your application(s)] available by license from cornell programmable automation cornell university 106 engineering and theory center ithaca, ny 14853 license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov't agencies. internal commercial licenses and re-dissemination licenses are available. for an information packet, write to the above address, or send your address to: marisa@cpa.tn.cornell.edu (richard marisa) from spatial technology. it's a solid modelling kernel callable from c. heard that many universities got free copies from the company. the person to contact regarding acis in academic institutions is scott owens, e-mail: sdo@spatial.com and their address is: spatial technology, inc. 2425 55th st., bldg. a boulder, co 80301-5704 phone: (303) 449-0649, fax: (303) 449-0926 movie-byu / cquel.byu basically [in my understanding], this is a fem pre- and post-proccessor system. it's fairly old today, but it still serves some people in mech. eng. depts. now it's superseded from cquel.byu (pronounced "sequel"). that's a complete modelling, animation and visualization package. runs in the usual workstation environments (sun, dec, hp, sgi, ibm rs6000, and others) you can get a demo version (30-days trial period) either by sending $20 usd in their address or a blank tape. it costs 1,500 for a full run-time contact: engineering computer graphics lab 368 clyde building, brigham young univ. provo, ut 84602 phone: 801-378-2812 e-mail: cquel@byu.edu soon to add stuff about it... if i get a reply to my fax it's a volume renderer marketed by: vaytek inc. (fairfield, iowa phone: 515-472-2227) , running on pcs with 386+fpu at least. call vaytek for more info. a 3d volume renderer for windows. features include direct ray-traced volume rendering, color and alpha mapping, gradient lighting, animation, reflections and shadows. runs on a pc(386 or higher) with at least an 8 bit video card(svga is fine) under windows 3.x. it costs $495. contact: jaguar software inc. 573 main st., suite 9b winchester, ma 01890 (617) 729-3659 jwp@world.std.com (john w poduska) 7. scene description languages neutral file format , by eric haines. very simple, there are some procedural database generators in the spd package, and many objects floating in various ftp sites. there's also a previewer written in hp starbase from e.haines. also there's one written in vogle, so you can use any of the devices vogle can output on. (check in sites carrying vogle, like gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au) object file format, from dec's randy rost (rost@kpc.com). [ the object archive server seems to be mothballed. in a future version, i'll remove the ref. to it -- nfotis ] available also through their mail server. to obtain help about using this service, send a message with a "subject:" line containing only the word "help" and a null message body to: object-archive-server@decwrl.dec.com. [for ftp places to get it, see in the relevant place]. there's an off previewer for sgi 4d machines, called off-preview in godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au . there are previewers for xview and sunview, also on gondwana. it's a library of 3d objects with translators to/from off, nff, rayshade, imagine or vort objects. edited copy of the announcement follows (from raytracing news, v4,#3): new library of 3d objects available via ftp, by steve worley (worley@cup.portal.com) i have assembled a set of over 150 3d objects in a binary format called tddd. these objects range from human figures to airplanes, from semi-trucks to lampposts. these objects are all freely distributable, and most have readmes that describe them. in order to convert these objects to a human-readable format, a file with the specification of tddd is included in the directory with the objects. there is also a shareware system called ttdddlib (officially on hubcap.clemson.edu) that will convert (ala pbm+) to/from various object formats : imagine ttddd (extension of tddd?), off, nff, rayshade 4.0, or vort. source included for amiga/unix as executables for the amiga. also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript. from pittsburgh supercomputing center. the p3d uses lisp with slight extensions to store three-dimensional models. a simple lisp interpreter is included with the p3d release, so there is no need to have access to any vendor's lisp to run this software. the mouse-driven user interfaces for motif, open look, and silicon graphics gl, and the drawp3d subroutine library for generating p3d without ever looking at the underlying lisp. the p3d software currently supports nine renderers. they are: painter - painter's algorithm, dore, silicon graphics inc. gl language, generic phigs, sun phigs+, dec phigs+, rayshade, art ray tracer (from vort package) and pixar renderman. the code is available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp.psc.edu, directory pub/p3d, and nic.funet.fi, directory pub/graphics/programs/p3d. pixar's renderman is not free - call pixar for details. 8. solids description formats a. eec's esprit project 322 cad*i (cad interfaces) has developed a neutral file format for transfer of cad data (curves, surfaces, and solid models between cad systems and from cad to caa (computer aided analysis) an cam (computer aided manufacturing) b. iges [v. 5.1 now] tries to define a standard to tranfer solid models - brep and csg. the current standard number is ansi y14.26m-1987 for documentation, you might want to contact nancy flower at ncga technical services and standards, 1-800-225-6242 ext. 325 and the cost is $100. this standard is not available in electronic format. c. pdes/step : this slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only the geometrical information, but also for things like fem, etc. the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa. you can get more information about pdes by sending mail to nptserver@cme.nist.gov and putting the line send index in the body (not the subject:) area of the message. the people at rutherford appleton lab. are also working on step tools: they have an express compiler and an exchange file parser, both available in source form (and for free) for research purposes. soon they will also have an express-based database system. for the tools contact mike mead, phone: +44 (0235) 44 6710 (fax: x 5893), e-mail: mm@inf.rl.ac.uk or {...!}mcsun!uknet!rlinf!mm or mm%inf.rl.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk end of part 1 of the resource listing nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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 archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part2 last-modified: 1993/04/27 computer graphics resource listing : weekly posting [ part 2/3 ] last change : 27 april 1993 14. plotting packages gnuplot 3.2 it is one of the best 2- and 3-d plotting packages, with online help.it's a command-line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix, msdos, amiga, archimedes, and vms platforms (at least!). freely distributed, it supports many terminals, plotters, and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices. it was posted to comp.sources.misc in version 3.0, plus 2 patches. you can practically find it everywhere (use archie to find a site near you!). the comp.graphics.gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot. xvgr and xmgr (ace/gr) xmgr is an xy-plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows. there is an xview version called xvgr for suns. collectively, these 2 tools are known as ace/gr. compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version 1.1 and x11r4 - xmgr will not compile under x11r3/motif 1.0x. check at ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu [129.95.72.34} in /ccalmr/pub/acegr/xmgr-2.09.tar.z (motif version) /ccalmr/pub/acegr/xvgr-2.09.tar.z (xview version) comments, suggestions, bug reports to paul j turner <pturner@amb4.ese.ogi.edu> (if mail fails, try pturner@ese.ogi.edu). due to time constraints, replies will be few and far between. release 0.45 : 2-d and limited 3-d. based on xview 3, written in c / fortran (so you need a fortran compiler or the f2c translator). mainly tested on sun4, less on decstations. check at ftp.astro.psu.edu (128.118.147.28), pub/astrod. vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot.ceee.nist.gov [129.6.64.151] it's being developed at bellcore, and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration. you can call it from the s language also, and it works as an x11 client using the athena widget set (or with an ascii terminal). it's distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu. to get it via e-mail, send email to statlib@temper.stat.cmu.edu and in the body area of the message, put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp, connect to lib.stat.cmu.edu. log in as "statlib" and use your e-mail address as your password. then type cd general mget xgobi.* warning: it's about 2 mb sources + large postscript manual. read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not. runs on vax/vms and supposedly on unix. it's a set of fortran routines freely available (though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of $50 or so) that includes contour plots and support for various devices, including ps. contact tjp@deimos.caltech.edu host shorty.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.8] : /pub/ggraph.tar.z unknown more details. for pcs. call dvj@lab2.phys.lgu.spb.su (vladimir j. dmitriev) for details. you can get the program demo or (and) play version, if sent 10 $ to 1251 budapest posta fiok 60 ph/fax 1753696 budapest ph 2017760 multiplot xln for amigas, shareware ($30 usd, #20 uk or $40 aust.). advanced 2d package that has a big list of features. contact: dr. alan baxter <agb16@mbuc.bio.cam.ac.uk>, cambridge university department of pathology, tennis court road, cambridge cb2 1qp, uk athena plotter widget set this version v6.0 is based on gregory bond's version v5-beta. added some stuff for scientific graphs, i.e. log axes, free scalable axes, xy-lineplots and some more, and re-added plotter callbacks from v4, e.g. to request the current pointer position, or to cut off a rectangle from the plotting area for zooming-in. version v6.0 has a log of bugs fixed and a log of improvements against v6-beta. additionally i did some other changes/extensions, besides - origin and frame lines for axes. - subgrid lines on subtic positions. - line plots in different line types (lines, points, lines+points, impulses, lines+impulses, steps, bars), line styles (solid, dotted, dashed, dot-dashed) and marker types for data points. - legend at the right or left hand side of the plot. - optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window. - layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters in one application. available at export.lcs.mit.edu, directory contrib/plotter sciplot is a scientific 2d plotting and manipulation program. for the next (requires nextstep 3.0), and it's shareware. features: ascii import and export; eps export; copy, cut, paste with data buffer; free number of data points, data buffer, and document window; selective open and save ; plotting in many styles; automatic legend; subviews; linear and logarithmic axes; two different axes; text and graphic; color support; zoom; normalizing and moving; axis conversions; free hand data manipulations (cut, edit, move, etc.); data editor; sorting of data; absolute,relative, and free defined error bars; calculating with buffers (+, -, *, / ); background subtractions (linear,shirley,tougaard, bezier); integration and relative integration; fitting of one or more free defined functions; linear regression; calculations (+, -, *, /, sin, cos, log, etc.); function generator; spline interpolation; least square smooth and fft smooth; differentiation; fft; esca calculations and database; .. and something more you can find it on: ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.7] : /pub/next/science/sciplot3.1.tar.z author: michael wesemann scillerstr. 73,1000 berlin 12, germany mike@fiasko.rz-berlin.mpg.de plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems, small (micro) and large (super) alike. despite its small size and quickness, it has enough power to satisfy most users, including: standard x-y plots, semilog plots, log-log plots, contour plots, 3d plots, mesh plots, bar charts and pie charts. multiple graphs (of the same or different sizes) may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph. different line styles, widths and colors are supported. a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used. there are almost 1000 characters in the extended character set. this includes four different fonts, the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical, musical, and other symbols. the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects. many different output device drivers are available (system dependent), including a portable metafile format and renderer. freely available (but copyrighted) via anonymous ftp on hagar.ph.utexas.edu, directory pub/plplot at present (v. 4.13), plplot is known to work on the following systems: unix: sunos, a/ix, hp-ux, unicos, dg/ux, ultrix other platforms: vms, amiga/exec, ms-dos, os/2, next authors: many. the main supporters are: maurice lebrun <mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: plplot kernel and the metafile, xterm, xwindow, tektronix, and amiga drivers. geoff furnish <furnish@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: ms-dos and os/2 drivers tony richardson <amr@egr.duke.edu>: plplot on the next 2-d plotting package at cmu, filename ~re00/tmp/sm.2.1.0.tar.z (probably under the ftp.cmu.edu or andrew.cmu.edu machines?) gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists. it runs on a variety of platforms (pcs, vaxes, and unix) with drivers for xwindows, regis, tek4010, pc graphics cards, vt100s, hp plotters, postscript printers, epson-compatible printers and laserjet/paintjet printers. it provides latex quality fonts, as well as full support for postscript fonts. the graphing module provides full control over all features of graphs. the graphics primitives include user-defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams. accompanying utilities include surface (for hidden line surface plotting), contour (for contour plots), manip (for manipulation of columnar data files), and fitls (for fitting arbitrary equations to data). + available via anon. ftp at these places: + pc gle: simtel, wuarchive.wustl.edu, and other mirrors, msdos/graphics/gle*.* + unix gle: zephyr.grace.cri.nz (131.203.1.5), pub/gle/unix + vms gle: zephyr.grace.cri.nz (131.203.1.5), pub/gle/vms mailing list: glelist. send a message to listserver@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu, with a message boyd containing sub glelist "your name" maintainer: dean pentcheff <dean2@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu> 15. image analysis software - image processing and display pc and mac-based tools (multi-platform software) imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites. can do simple display, enhancing, smoothing and so on. works with the fits and vicar/pds data formats of nasa. can read tiff images, if you know their dimensions [pc and macs] labview 2 labview is used as a framework for image processing tools. it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the "program" with graphical elements representing the programming elements. hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram (program). functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering, numerical analysis, statistics, etc. the tool allows any virtual instrument (vi, a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument) to be used as a part of any other virtual national instruments markets plug-in digital signal processing (dsp) boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real-time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer. new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology. the tools range from low-level debugging software to high-level block diagram development software. there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb-dsp2300 board and labview: use of the nb-dsp2300 analysis library: ffts, power spectra, filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop (mpw) c that execute on the nb-dsp2300 board. there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready-to-use vis optimized for the nb-dsp2300. use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler, an assembler and a linker for low-level programming of the dsp hardware. this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use. use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb-dsp2300 board. (this is the easiest route for the development of custom code.) ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek-france is a family of image processing virtual instruments (vis) that give labview 2 (described above) users high-end tools for designing, integrating and monitoring imaging control systems. a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument. typical applications for concept vi include thermography, surveillance, machine vision, production testing, biomedical imaging, electronic microscopy and remote sensing. ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis. it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement, histogram equalization, spatial and frequency filtering, isolation of features, thresholding, mathematical morphology analysis, density measurement, object counting, sizing and the program loads images with a minimum resolution of 64 by 64, a pixel depth of 8, 16, or 32 bits, and one image plane. standard input and output formats include pict, tiff, satie, and aipd. other formats can be imported. image enhancement features include lookup table transformations, spatial linear and non-linear filters, frequency filtering, arithmetic and logic operations, and geometric transformations, among others. morphological transformations include erosion, dilation, opening, closing, hole removal, object separation, and extraction of skeletons, among others. quantitative analysis provides for objects' detection, measurement, and morphological distribution. measures include area, perimeter, center of gravity, moment of inertia, orientation, length of relevant chords, and shape factors and equivalence. measures are saved in ascii format. the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom a 3-d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot. the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale. the twenty-eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for: masking and averaging sections of images, noise removal, making comparisons, etc. there are 13 spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity. these include high-pass filters for contrast and outlines. the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the (real , imaginary ) components or the (phase, magnitude) data. the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts. the transformations include: thresholding, eroding, dilating and even hole filling. the program's quantitative analysis measurements include: area, perimeter, center of mass, object counts, and angle between points. gtfs, inc. 2455 bennett valley road #100c santa rosa, ca 95494 707-579-1733 iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek-franceus ultimage concept vi. using scripting tools, the user tells the system the operations to be performed. the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention. the tool supports: ffts, 16 arithmetic operations for pixel alteration, and a movie command for cycling through windows. macintosh-based tools ncsa image, ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public-domain visualization tools for the macintosh, primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations. these applications, documentation, and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass. spyglass, inc. 701 devonshire drive champaign, il 61820 (217) 355-6000 fax: 217 355 8925 nih image available at alw.nih.gov (128.231.128.7) or (preferably) zippy.nimh.nih.gov [128.231.98.32], directory:/pub/image. it has painting and image manipulation tools, a macro language, tools for measuring areas, distances and angles, and for counting things. using a frame grabber card, it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie. it can invoke user-defined convolution matrix filters, such as gaussian. it can import raw data in tab-delimited ascii, or as 1 or 2-byte quantities. it also does histograms and even 3-d plots. it is limited to 8-bits/pixel, though the 8 bits map into a color lookup table. it runs on any mac that has a 256-color screen and a fpu (or get the nonfpu version from zippy.nimh.nih.gov) data translation, inc. 100 locke dr. marlboro, ma 01752 508-481-3700 blue solutions 3039 marigold place thousand oaks, ca 91360 805-492-9973 pixeltools and tcl-image "complete family of pixeltools (hardware accelerator and applications software) for scientific image processing and analysis. video-rate capture, display, processing, and analysis of high-resolution monochromatic and color images. includes c source code." tcl-image: "software package for scientific, quantitative image processing and analysis. it provides a complete language for the capture, enhancement, and extraction of quantitative information from gray-scale images. tcl_image has over 200 functions for image processing, and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development -- variables and control structures. it is easily extensible through "script" (or indirect command) files. these script files are simply text files that contain tcl-image commands. they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters. the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards. tcl-image comes with the i-view utility that provides conversion between common image file types, such as pict2 and tiff." perceptics 725 pellissippi parkway knoxville, tn 37933 615-966-9200 satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures (raw data) and does all sorts of image enhancing on it. you'll need at least a mac ii with co- processor; a 256 color display and a large harddisk. the program doesn't run under system 7.x.ate1 v1 in the documentation the contact address is given as: liz smith, jet propulsion laboratory, ms 300-323, 4800 oak grove dr,.pasadena, ca 91109 (818) 354-6980 visualization workbench "an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific 2d and 3d plotting." paragon imagine 171 lincoln st. lowell, ma 01852 508-441-2112 adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with 24-bit images or 256 levels of grey scale. once an image has been imported it can be rre-toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh-based rpaints applications. these include an eraser, pencil, brush and air brush. advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated. for example, all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted. photoshop has transparencies ranging from 0 to 100%, allowing you to create ghost overlays. rphoto-editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast, color balancing, hue/saturation modification and spectrum equalization. images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image, blur edges, or locate edges. image scaling is also supported. for storage savings, the images can be compressed using standard algorithms, including externally supplied compression such as jpeg, availlable from storm technologies. the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including: epsf, epsf, tiff, pict resource, amiga iff/ilbm, compuserve gif, macpaint, pixar, pixelpaint, scitex ct, tga and thunderscan.. adobe systems, inc. 1585 charlestown road po box 7900 mountain view, ca 94039-7900 415-961-4400 colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image-editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use. several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop. the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the 30 mb range. the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the "auto selection tool" which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color, close hues, color range and mask. imagestudio: don't know... letraset usa 40 eisenhower drive paramus, nj 07653 201-845-6100 dapple systems "high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images, enhance and edit, and measure a variety of global or feature parameters, and interpret the data." dapple systems, 355 w. olive ave, #100 sunnyvale, ca 94086 408-733-3283 digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images. one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by "painting" it. a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections. a brush lets the operator "paint" with a selected portion of the image. note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool. this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey-scale images only. it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio. silicon beach software 9770 carroll ctr. rd., suite j san diego, ca 92126 619-695-6956 it is compatible with system 6.05 and system 7.0 , requires mac lc or ii series with 256 colours, with a recommended min of 6mb of ram. it has the capability of reading erdas files. functions include; image enhancement, 3d and contour plots, image statistics, supervised and unsupervised classification, pca and other image transformations. there is also a means (image operation language or iol) by which you can write your own transformations. there is no image rectification, however dimple is compatable with mapii. the latest version is 1.4 and it is in the beta stage of testing. dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose." "dimple runs on a colour macintosh. it is a product still in its development phase.. i.e. it doesn't have all the inbuilt features of other packages, but is coming along nicely. it has its own inbuilt language for writing "programs" for processing an image, defining convolution filters etc. dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc... it is unprotected software." process software solutions, po box 2110, wollongong, new south wales, australia. 2500. phone 61 42 261757 fax 61 42 264190. enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data. the tool has over 80 mathematical filter variations: "laplacian, medium noise filter", etc. files can be saved as either tiff, pict, epsf or text (however epsf files can't be imported). microfrontier 7650 hickman road des moines, ia 50322 515-270-8109 image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images. image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language. it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes, or enhancing and measuring distances in image analyst provides users with an array of field-proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance; count objects; determine density, shape, size, position, or movement; perform object feature extraction; and conduct textural analysis automatically. image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera, or a disk-stored image. within minutes, without the need for programming, the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image. measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi-automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images. image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size, shape and position. the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers. a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices. there are 2 types of files, the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing, measurements and analysis that the user defines. automated sequences are set up in regions of interest (roi) represented by movable, sizable boxes atop the image. inside a roi, the program can find the distance between two edges, the area of a shape, the thickness of a wall, etc. image analyst finds the center, edge and other positions automatically. the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object. it also supports histograms and a color look-up table (clut) tool. automatix, inc. 775 middlesex turnpike billerica, ma 01821 508-667-7900 signal analytics corp. 374 maple ave. e vienna, va 22180 703-281-3277 fax 703-281-2509 "menu-driven image processing software that supports 24-bit color or pseudocolor/grayscale image display and manipulation." map ii among the mac gis systems, map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis. from stanford : try anonymous ftp from sumex-aim.stanford.edu it has pd source for image v2, and ready to run code for a mac under image v3. windows/dos pc-based tools richard berry's ccd imaging book for willamon-bell contains (optional?) disks with image manipulating software. source code is included. "erdas will do all of the things you want: rectification, classification, transformations (canned & user-defined), overlays, filters, contrast enhancement, etc. ... i was using it on my thesis & then changed the topic a bit & that work became secondary." erdas, inc. 2801 buford highway suite 300 atlanta, ga 30329 404-248-9000 fax 404-248-9400 "i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd. in british columbia. its for ibm pc's or clones, cheap (about $400) and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful, though i have had only limited experience with erdas. i have used rsvga with 6 of 7 landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual" imagine-32 it's a 32 bit package [i suppose for pcs] called "imagine32" or "image32" the program does a modest amount of image processing --add, subtract, multiply, divide, display, and plot an x or y cut across the image. it can also display a number of images simultaneously. the company is compuscope, in santa barbara, ca. pc vista it was announced in the 1989 august edition of pasp. it is known to be available from mike richmond, whose email addresses have been richmond@bllac.berkeley.edu richmond@bkyast.berkeley.edu and his s-mail address is: michael richmond,astronomy department, campbell hall, berkeley, ca 94720 the latest version of pc-vista, version 1.7, includes not only the source code and help files, but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images. if you do wish to use the source code, you will need microsoft c, version 5.0 or later; other compilers may work, but will require substantial modifications. to receive the documentation and nine double-density (360k) floppies (or three quad-density 3-1/2 inch floppies (1.44m) with everything on them, just send a request for pc-vista, together with your name and a us-mail address, to office of technology licensing 2150 shattuck ave., suite 510 berkeley, ca. 94704 include a check (traveller's checks are fine) or purchase order for $150.00 in u.s. dollars, if your address is inside the continental u.s., or $165.00 otherwise, made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs. software tools it's a set of software "tools" put out by canyon state systems and software. they are not free, but rather cheap at about $30 i heard. it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber it's image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton. it will run on a pc among other platforms. it is a forth based system - i.e. a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in. data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers. surely you can find much more pc-related stuff in it. a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen386 which does maximum entropy image deconvolution. their company is named digital signal processing software, or something like that, and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine, either jan or feb 92 (an article on ccd's vs film). jandel scientific (java) another software package (java) is put out by jandel scientific. jandel scientific, 65 koch road, corte madera, ca 94925, (415) 924-8640, (800) 874-1888. runs on an ms dos platform and uses a 32 bit graphics card (vista), or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards. its a full blown remote sensed data processing system.. it is menu driven (character based screen), but is does not use a windowed user interface. its is hardware protected with a dongle. mbrian = micro barrier reef image anaysis system. it was developed by csiro (commonwealth scientific & industrial organization) and is marketed/ supported by: mpa australia (51 lusher road, croydon, victoria tel + 61 3 724 4488 fax +61 3 724 4455) there are educational and commercial prices, but be prepared to set aside $a10k for the first educational licence. subsequent ones come cheaper (they need to!) it has installed sites worldwide. it is widely used at anu. the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra-mar's microimage, on 486 pcs with some fancy display hardware. terra-mar resource information services, inc. 1937 landings drive mountain view, ca 94043 415-964-6900 fax 415-964-5430 unix-based tools iraf (image reduction and analysis facility) developed in the national optical astronomy observatory, kitt peak az it is free, you can ftp it from tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1] and complement it with stsdas from stsci.edu [130.167.1.2]. email to iraf@noao.edu for more details. apparently this is one of the _de facto_ standards in the astronomical image community. they issue a newsletter also. they seem to support very well their users. works with vms also last i heard, and practically has its own shell on top of the vms/unix shells. it's suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows. very flexible/extendable -- tons (literally 3 linear feet) of documentation for the general user, skilled user, and programmer. a sun-specific image toolkit. version 2.0.6 posted to comp.sources.sun on 11dec89. also available via email to alv-users-request@cs.bris.ac.uk. astronomical image processing system. contact: aipsmail@nrao.edu (also see the usenet newsgroups alt.sci.astro.aips and sci.astro.fits) built by nrao (national radio astronomy observatory, hq in charlottesville, va, sites in nm, az, wv). software distributed by 9-track, exabyte, dat, or (non-anonymous) internet ftp. documentation (postscript mostly) available via anonymous ftp to baboon.cv.nrao.edu (192.33.115.103), directory pub/aips and pub/aips/text/publ. installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler. this package can read and write fits data (see sci.astro.fits), and is primarily for reduction, analysis, and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes, particularly the very large array (vla), a synthesis instrument. it consists of almost 300 programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution, e.g. via maximum entropy. there is an x11-based image tool (xas) and a tek-compatible xterm-based graphics tool built into aips. the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model 70 display unit and can do image arithmetic, etc. the code is mostly fortran 77 with some system c language modules, and is available for suns, ibm rs/6000, dec/ultrix, convex, cray (unicos), and alliant with support planned for hp-9000/7xx, solaris 2.1, and maybe sgi. there is currently a project - "aips++" - underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting, using c++ and an object oriented approach. whereas aips is proprietary code (licensed for free to non-profit institutions) owner by nrao and the nsf, aips++ will be in the public domain at some level, as it is an international effort with contributions from the us, canada, england, the netherlands, india, and australia to name a few. (version 4.0 is out for x11) it's written in c, and currently runs on sun 3/xxx, sun 4/xxx (os3.5, 4.0 and 4.0.3) under sunview. the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp. it was used on the following domains: computer science (image analysis), medicine, biology, physics. it is distributed free of charge (source code). available via anonymous ftp at ftp.ads.com (128.229.30.16), in pub/vision-list-archive/shareware/laboimage_* contact: prof. thierry pun, computer vision group computing science center, u-geneva 12, rue du lac, ch-1207 geneva switzerland phone : +41(22) 787 65 82; fax: +41(22) 735 39 05 e-mail: pun@cui.unige.ch or pun@cgeuge51.bitnet it was originally made for vms, and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia (ks@aaoepp.aao.gov.au) and for unix from sam southard at caltech (sns@deimos.caltech.edu). it's about 110mbytes on a sun. moved to the scientific visualization category below the "real thing" is available via anonymous ftp from lowell.edu. email to vista@lowell.edu for more details. total size less than 20mbytes. (device independent software for image processing) is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times. feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options. all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive. this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function. such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of processes include image rectification, classification (unsupervised and supervised), intensity transformations, three dimensional display and principal component analysis. disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering, band subtraction and host configuration requirements running on unix workstations, disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times. disimp is available in both runtime and programmer's environments. using the programmers environment, utilities can be developed for specific applications programs. graphics are governed by an icon-based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image. manipulations of look up tables, colour stretches, changes to histograms, zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control. a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image, graphic and textual types. images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems, providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing. overlays of grids, text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery. the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment, including the amount of help required. disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras. the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data. for further information, please contact: the business manager, clough engineering group systems division, 627 chapel street, south yarra, australia 3141. telephone: +61 3 825 5555 fax: +61 3 826 6463 global imaging software "we use global imaging software to process avhrr data, from the dish to the final display. select a chunk of five band data from a pass, automatic navigation, calibrate it to albedo and temp, convert that to byte, register it to predesigned window, all relatively automatically and carefree. it has no classification routines to speak of, but it isn't that difficult to write your own with their programmer's module. very small operation: one designs, one codes, one sells. been around for a number of years, sold to weather service and navy. runs on hp9000 with hp-ux. supports 24-bit display" (human information processing laboratory's image processing system) michael landy co-wrote and sell a general-purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications (robotics, medical, satellite, engineering, oil exploration, etc.). it is called hips, and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images. it has been growing since we first wrote it, both by additions from us as well as a huge user-contributed library. feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research, system development and teaching. it handles sequences of images (movies) in precisely the same manner as single frames. programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations, filtering, convolution, fourier and other transform processing, edge detection and line drawing manipulation, digital image compression and transmission methods, noise generation, and image statistics computation. over 150 such image transformation programs have been developed. as a result, almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently. additionally, hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines. new users become effective using hips on their first day. hips features images that are self-documenting. each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image. hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header, and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix ``filters''. it comes complete with source code, on-line manual pages, and on-line documentation. host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university, hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available. it runs under the unix operating system. it is modular and flexible, provides automatic documentation of its actions, and is almost entirely independent of special equipment. hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax, sun, apollo, masscomp, ncr tower, iris, ibm at, etc. for image display and input, drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage (ikonas) image processors, and the sun-2, sun-3, sun- 4, and sun-386i consoles. we also supply user-contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages (sun gfx, sun console, matrox vip-1024, iti ip-512, lexidata, macintosh ii, x windowing system, and iris). the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs-4000. it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame- stores, and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max- video. hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because 98% of hips is machine independent. hips has proven itself a highly flexible system, both as an interactive research tool, and for more production- oriented tasks. it is both easy to use, and quickly adapted and extended to new uses. hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format (either reel- to-reel or sun cartridge), and comes with source code, libraries, a library of convolu- tion masks, and on-line documentation and manual pages. michael landy sharpimage software p.o. box 373, prince street station new york, ny 10012-0007 voice: (212) 998-7857 fax: (212) 995-4011 msl@cns.nyu.edu [ please don't confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal. these are altogether different beasts! - nfotis ] mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis. mira gives workstation level performance on 386/486 dos computers using svga cards in 256 color modes up to 1024x768. mira contains a very handsome/functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated. mira reads/writes tiff and fits formats, native formats of a number of ccd cameras, and uncompressed binary images in byte, short integer, and 4-byte real pixel format in 1- or 2- dimensions. the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels, or the same as that of the input image. mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format. over 100 functions are hand-coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware. the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations. windows for 2-d image and 1-d image/data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse. there are also smooth, real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image(s), all operated by the mouse. a wide selection of grayscale, pseudocolor, and random palettes is provided, and other palettes can be generated. supported functions include such niceties as the following: o image & image: + - / * interpolation o image & constant: + - / * o unary operations: abs value, polynomial of pixel value, chs, 1/x, log, byteswap, clip values at upper/lower limits, short->real or real->short. o combine images by mean, median, mode, or sum of pixel values, with or without autoscaling to mean, median, or mode of an image section. o convolutions/filters: laplacian, sobel edge operator, directional gradient, line, gaussian, elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters, unsharp masking, median filters, user defined filter kernel. ellipse, rectangle, line, gradient, gaussian, and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle. o ccd data reduction: flat fielding, dark subtraction, column over/underscan bias removal, remove bad pixels and column defects, normalize to region target mean, median, or modal value. o create subimage, mosaic m x n 1-d or 2-d images to get larger image, collapse 2-d image into 1-d image. o plot 1-d section or collapsed section of 2-d image, plot histogram of region of an image. o review/change image information/header data, rename keywords, plot keyword values for a set of images. o luminance/photometry: elliptical or circular aperture photometry, brightness profile, isophotal photometry between set of upper & lower luminances, area and luminance inside traced polygon. interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image, fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes. o interactive with 2-d image: contrast/brightness, x- y- or diagonal plot of pixel values, distance between two points, compute region stats,` centroid, pan to x,y location or image center, zoom 1/16 to 10 times, change cursor to rectangle crosshair, full image crosshair, or off, and adjust cursor size on image. select linear, log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization. o interactive or specified image offset computation and re-sampling for o interactive with 1-d image: zoom in x- y- or both in steps of 1/2 or 2 times current, re-center plot, or enlarge a framed area. 4 plot buffers can be cycled through. interactive data analysis: polynomial fitting, point deletion, undelete, change value, point weighting, linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing, revert to unit point weights or original data buffer, substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function. dump data buffer (+ overlays and error bars) to file or printer. change to user specified coordinate system. o tricolor image combination and display, hardcopy halftone printout to hp-pcl compatible printers (laserjet, deskjet, etc.) o documentation is over 300 pages in custom vinyl binder. cost: 995 $usd/copy available from: axiom research, inc. box 44162 tucson, az 85733 (602) 791-2864 phone/fax. international marketing rep: saguaro scientific corporation, tucson, arizona. end of part 2 of the resource listing nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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 archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part3 last-modified: 1993/04/27 computer graphics resource listing : weekly posting [ part 3/3 ] last change : 27 april 1993 11. scene generators/geographical data/maps/data files dems (digital elevation models) dems (digital elevation models) as well as other cartographic data [huge] is available from spectrum.xerox.com [192.70.225.78], /pub/map. contact: lee moore -- webster research center, xerox corp. -- voice: +1 (716) 422 2496 arpa, internet: moore.wbst128@xerox.com [ check also on ncgia.ucsb.edu (128.111.254.105), /pub/dems -- nfotis ] many of these files are also available on cd-rom selled by usgs: "1:2,000,000 scale digital line graph (dlg) data". contains datas for all 50 states. price is about $28, call to or visit in offices in menlo park, in reston, virginia (800-usa-maps). the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd-rom (tso standard format) that is derived from usgs 1:100,000 map data. call (301) 763-4100 for more info or they have a bbs at (301) 763-1568. [ from dr.dobbs #198 march 1993: ] "the u.s. defense mapping agency, in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada, the u.k., and australia, have released the digital chart of the world (dcw). this chart consists of over 1.5 gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd-roms. .... includes coastlines, rivers, roads, railrays, airports,cities, towns, spot elevations, and depths, and over 100,000 place names." it is iso9660 compatible and only $200.00 available from: u.s. geological survey p.o. box 25286 denver federal center denver, co 80225 digital distribution services energy, mines, and resources canada 615 booth street ottawa, on k1a 0e9 canada director general of military survey (survey 3) elmwood avenue feltham, middlesex tw13 7ah united kingdom director of survey, australian army department of defense campbell park offices (cp2-4-24) campbell act 2601 australia fractal landscape generators public domain: many people have written fractal landscape generators. for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (paul d. bourke). many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers. check with archie. commercial: vista pro 3.0 for the amiga from virtual reality labs -- list price is about $100. their address is: 2341 ganador court san luis obispo, ca 93401 telephone or fax (805) 545-8515 scenery animator (also for the amiga) is of the same caliber with vista pro 2. check with: natural graphics p.o. box 1963 raklin, ca 95677 phone (916) 624-1436 don't forget to ask about companion programs and data disks/tapes. vista pro 3 has been ported to the pcs. cia world map ii [ note: this database is quite out of date, and not topologically structured. if you need a standard for world cartographic data, wait for the digital chart of the world. this 1:1m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency's oncs and will be available, together with searching and viewing software, on a number of cd-roms later this summer. ] check into hanauma.stanford.edu and ucsd.edu (see ftp list above) the cia database consists of coastlines, rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes. also on hanauma.stanford.edu is a 720x360 array of elevation data, containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude. a program for decoding the database, mfil, can be found on the machine pi1.arc.umn.edu (137.66.130.11). there's another program, which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure. it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance, but you can use regular polylines. ask joe stewart <joes@lpi.liant.com>. the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it. (was posted in comp.sources.unix). to be more exact, you'll have to compile just the libvplot routines, not the whole package. ncar data ncar (national center for atmospheric research) has many types of terrain data, ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions, to information about soil types, vegetation, etc. this data is not free -- they charge from $40 to $90 or more, depending on the data volume and media (exabyte tape, 3480 cartridge, 9-track tape, ibm pc floppy, and ftp transfer are all available). their data archive is mostly research oriented, not hobbyist oriented. for more information, email to ilana@ncar.ucar.edu. unc data tapes with voxel data there are 2 "public domain" tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms (mainly mri and ct scans). these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc @ chapel hill. (softlab@cs.unc.edu) the data sets (volume i and ii) are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159] in pub/softlab/chvrtd many us agencies such as nasa publish cd-roms with many altimetry data from various space missions, eg. viking for mars, magellan for venus, etc. especially for nasa, i would suggest to call the following address for more info: national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt, maryland 20771 telephone: (301) 286-6695 email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov the data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online. internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.10.4) and log in as 'nodis' (no password). you can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits, no parity, one stop). at the "enter number:" prompt, enter md and carriage return. when the system responds "call complete," enter a few more carriage returns to get the "username:" and log in as 'nodis' (no password). nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site, but no comprehensive list of what's there is available at present. earth sciences data there's a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data, including imagery. this listing is called "earth sciences resources on internet", and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn.org [128.138.213.21] in the directory cogs under the name "internet.resources.earth.sci" some sites include: aurelie.soest.hawaii.edu [128.171.151.121]: pub/avhrr/images - avhrr images ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/space/cdrom - images from magellan and viking missions etc. pub/space/index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive (the index is about 200k by itself). there's also an e-mail server for the people without internet access: send a letter to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). in the subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like: send space index send space shuttle/ss01.23.91 (capitalization is important! only text files are handled by the email server at present) vab02.larc.nasa.gov [128.155.23.47]: pub/gifs/misc/landsat - landsat photos in gif and jpeg format [ it was shut down - nfotis; anyone has a copy of this archive?? ] daily values of river discharge, streamflow, and daily weather data is available from earthinfo, 5541 central ave., boulder co 80301. these disks are expensive, around $500, but there are quantity discounts. (303) 938-1788. check vmd.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.98], the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis, weather radar, and sat view pics in gif format (updated hourly) pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217] is the space and planetary image facility (located on the university of new mexico campus) ftp server. it provides anonymous ftp access to >150 cd-roms with data/images. a disk with earthquake data, topography, gravity, geopolitical info is available from ngdc (national geophysical data center), 325 broadway, boulder, co 80303. (303) 497-6958. eosat (at least in the us) now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for $200 per scene, and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data. the mss data are 4 bands, 80 meter resolution. check out anonymous ftp to ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in unix/polyview/alpha-shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha-shapes (a generalization of the convex hull) from 3d point sets. the grips ii (gov. raster image processing software) cd-rom is available from cd-rom inc. at 1-800-821-5245 for $49. code for viewing adrg (arc digitised raster graphics) files is available on the grips ii cd-rom. the u.s. army engineer topographic labs (juan perez) code is also available via ftp ( adrg.zip archive in spectrum.xerox.com ) nrcc range data rioux m., cournoyer l. "the nrcc three-dimensional image data files", tech. report, cnrc 29077, national research council canada, ottawa, canada, 1988 [ from what i understand, these data are from a laser range finder, and you can a copy for research purposes ] 12. 3d scanners - digitized 3d data a. cyberware labs, monterey, ca, manufactures a 3d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of, or a complete, human body. they run a service bureau also, so they can digitize models for you. address: cyberware labs, inc 8 harris ct, suite 3d monterey, ca 93940 phone: (408)373-1441, fax: (408)373-3582 b. polhemus makes a 6d input device (actually a couple of models) that senses position (3d) and *orientation* (+3d) based on electromagnetic field interference. this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove. this hardware is also called isotrack, from keiser aerospace. ascension technology makes a similar 3d input device. there is a company, applied sciences(?), that makes a 3d input device (position only) based on speed of sound triangulation. c. a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint. you can ask for viewpoint's _free_ 100 page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars, anatomy, aircraft,sports, boats, trains, animals and others. though these objects are quite expensive, the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe , polygon mesh. contact: 870 west center, orem, utah 84057 ph# 801-224-2222 fax# 801-224-2272 1-800-dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers: ascension technology bird, flock of birds, big bird: 6d trackers p.o. box 527, burlington, vt 05402 phone: (802) 655-7879, fax: (802) 655-5904 polhemus incorporated digitizer: 6d trackers p.o. box 560, hercules dr. colchester, vt. 05446 tel: (802) 655-3159 logitech inc. red baron, ultrasonic 6d mouse 6506 kaiser dr. freemont, ca 94555 tel: (415) 795-8500w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker 1921 holdom ave. burnaby, b.c. canada v5b 3w4 tel: (604) 298-8574 fax: (604) 298-8580 spaceball technologies, inc. spaceball: 6d stationary input device 600 suffolk street lowell, ma, 01854 tel: (508) 970-0330 fax: (508) 970-0199 tel in mountain view: (415) 966-8123 transfinite systems gold brick: powerglove for macintosh p.o. box n mit branch post office cambridge, ma 02139-0903 tel: (617) 969-9570 email: d2002@applelink.apple.com vpl research, inc. eyephone: head-mounted display dataglove: glove/hand input device vpl research inc. 950 tower lane 14th floor foster city, ca 94404 tel: (415) 312-0200 fax: (415) 312-9356 simgraphics engineering flying mouse: 6d input device 1137 huntington rd. suite a-1 south pasadena, ca 91030-4563 (213) 255-0900 13. background imagery/textures/datafiles first, check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above. 24-bit scanning: get a good 24-bit scanner, like epson's. suggested is an scsi port for speed. eric haines had a suggestion in rt news, volume 4, #3 : scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings, etc. from doll house supplies. so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don't have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area. books with textures: find some houses/books/magazines that carry photographic material. educorp, 1-619-536-9999, sells cd-roms with various imagery - also a wide variety of stock art is available. stock art from big-name stock art houses, such as comstock, uniphoto, and metro image base, is available. in italy, there's a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work. their address is: edition belvedere co. ltd., 00196 rome italy, piazzale flaminio, 19 tel. (06) 360-44-88, fax (06) 360-29-60 texture libraries: a. mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles, a set of 256x256 24-bit textures. initial shipments in 24-bit iff (for amigas), soon in 24-bit tiff format. algorithmically built for tiled surfaces. srp is $40 / volume (each volume = 40 images @ 10 disks). demo disks for $5 are available. contact: mannikin sceptre graphics 1600 indiana ave. winter park, fl 32789 phone: (407) 384-9484 fax: (407) 647-7242 b. essence is a library of 65 (sixty-five) new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse, inc. these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine 2.0, imagine 1.1, and even turbo silver. written by steve worley. for more info contact: essence info apex software publishing 405 el camino real suite 121 menlo park ca 94025 usa [ what about texture city ?? ] 14. introduction to rendering algorithms a. ray-tracing: i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics. no? then read some of the books that the faq contains. for ray-tracing, i would suggest: an introduction to ray tracing, andrew glassner (ed.), academic press 1989, isbn 0-12-286160-4 note that i have not read the book, but i feel that you can't be wrong using his book. an errata list was posted in comp.graphics by eric haines (erich@eye.com) there's a more concise reference also: roman kuchkuda , unc @ chapel hill: "an introduction to ray tracing", in "theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad", ed. r.a.e.earnshaw, nato as, vol. f-40., pp. 1039-1060. printed by springer-verlag, 1988. it contains code for a small, but fundamentally complete ray-tracer. b. z-buffer (depth-buffer) a good reference is: _procedural elements for computer graphics_, david f. rogers, mcgraw-hill, new york, 1985, pages 265-272 and 280-284. c. others: [ more info is needed -- nfotis ] 15. where can i find the geometric data for the: a. teapot ? "displays on display" column of ieee cg&a jan '87 has the whole story about origin of the martin newell's teapot. the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot. ieee cg&a sep '87 in jim blinn's column "jim blinn's corner" describes an another way to model the teapot; bezier curves with rotations for example are used. the off and spd packages have these objects, so you're advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself. the off data is triangles at a specific resolution (around 8x8[x4 triangles] meshing per patch). the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution. b. space shuttle ? tolis lerios <tolis@nova.stanford.edu> has built a list of space shuttle datafiles. here's a summary (from his sci.space list): model1: a modified version of the newsgroup model (model2) 406 vertices (296 useful, i.e. referred to in the polygon descriptions.) 389 polygons (233 3-vertex, 146 4-vertex, 7 5-vertex, 3 6-vertex). payload doors non-existent. units: unknown. simon marshall (s.marshall@sequent.cc.hull.ac.uk) has a copy. he said there is no proprietary information associated with it. model2: the newsgroup model, in off format. you can find it in gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au , file pub/off/objects/shuttle.geo hanauma.stanford.edu , /pub/graphics/comp.graphics/objects/shuttle.data model3: the triangles' model. this model is stored in several files, each defining portions of the model. greg henderson (henders@infonode.ingr.com) has a copy. he did not mention any restriction on the model's distribution. model4: the nasa model. the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers, defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations: <x offset> <y offset> <z offset> from then on, the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions 3473 vertices. 2748 polygons (407 3-vertex, 2268 4-vertex, 33 5-vertex, 14 6-vertex, 10 7-vertex, 8 8-vertex, 8 12-vertex, 2 13-vertex, 2 15-vertex, 17 16-vertex, 2 17-vertex, 2 18-vertex, 3 19-vertex, 8 24-vertex). payload doors closed. units: inches. jon berndt (jon@l14h11.jsc.nasa.gov) seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info: unknown model5: the old shuttle model. the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions. 104 vertices. 452 polygons (11 3-vertex, 41 4-vertex). payload doors open. units: meters. we have been using this model at star labs, stanford university, for some years now. contact me (tolis@nova.stanford.edu) or my supervisor scott williams (scott@star5.stanford.edu) if you want a copy. 16. image annotation software a. touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good. it reads in rasterfiles, but even if your image isn't normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a b. idraw (part of stanford's interviews distribution) can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool. i'm not sure exactly what they are. you can ftp the idraw's binary from interviews.stanford.edu. c. tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x11 bitmap (xbm) and x11 pixmap (xpm) formats. if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm, you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm. tgif's sources are available in the pub directory on cs.ucla.edu (version 2.12 of tgif at patchlevel 7 plus patch8 and patch9) d. use the editimage facility of khoros (see below). this is just one utility in the overall system- you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw-type graphics using this package. e. you might be able to get by with pbmplus. pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image. f. 'ice' requires sun hardware running openwindows 3.it's a postscript-based graphical editor,and it's available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo.soest.hawaii.edu (128.171.151.12). requires sun c++ 2.0 and two other locally developed packages, the lxt library (an xlib-based toolkit) and a small c++ class library. all files (pub/ice.tar.z, pub/lxt.tar.z and pub/ldgoc++.tar.z) are available in compressed tar format. pub/ice.tar.z contains a readme that gives installation instructions, as well as an extensive man page (ice.1). a statically-linked compressed executable pub/ice-sun4.z for sparc systems is also available for ftp. all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission. ice means image composition environment and it's an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing. g. use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server. pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull-down menu. imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats. imagemagick is available as export.lcs.mit.edu: contrib/imagemagick.tar.z or at your nearest x11 archive. 17. scientific visualization stuff x data slice (xds) bundled with the x11 distribution from mit, in the contrib directory. available at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50] (either as a source or binaries for various platforms). national center for supercomputing applications (ncsa) tool suite platforms: unix workstations (dec, ibm, sgi, sun) apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability: now available. source code in the public domain. ftp from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. contact: national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building 605 e. springfield ave. champaign, il 61820 cost: free (zero dollars). the suite includes tools for 2d image and 3d scene analysis and visualization. the code is actively maintained and updated. they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools. examples are: spyglass dicer (3d volumetric data analysis package) platform: mac spyglass transform (2d data analysis package) platforms: mac, sgi, sun, dec, hp, ibm contact: spyglass, inc. p.o. box 6388 champaign, il 61826 (217) 355-6000 khoros 1.0 patch 5 available via anonymous ftp at pprg.eece.unm.edu (129.24.24.10). cd to /pub/khoros to see what is available. it is huge (> 100 mb), but good. needs unix and x11r4. freely copied (not pd), complete with sources and docs. very extensive and at its heart is visual programming. khoros components include a visual programming language, code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system, an interactive user interface editor, an interactive image display package, an extensive library of image and signal processing routines, and 2d/3d plotting packages. see comp.soft-sys.khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info.... contact: the khoros group room 110 eece dept. university of new mexico albuquerque, nm 87131 email: khoros-request@chama.eece.unm.edu analysis & visualization application for the macintosh. operates on 1d and 2d data arrays. import/export several different file formats. several different plotting options such as gray scale, color raster, 3d wire frame, 3d surface, contour, vector, line, and combinations. ffts, filtering, and other math functions, color look up editor, array calculator, etc. shareware, available via anonymous ftp from sumex-aim.stanford.edu in the info-mac/app directory. for other information contact doug norton (e-mail: 74017.461@@compuserve.com) iris explorer it's an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists, engineers and other scientists. the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any, or a minimal amount of, traditonal code. also, existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment. explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines, but will become available on other platforms in time. [ bundled with every new sgi machine, as far as i know] see comp.graphics.explorer or comp.sys.sgi for discussion of the package. there are also two ftp servers for related stuff, modules etc.: ftp.epcc.ed.ac.uk [129.215.56.29] swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] - mirror of the uk site back in the 'old good days', you could get ape for nearly free. now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it: taravisual corporation 929 harrison avenue columbus, ohio 43215 tel: 1-800-458-8731 and (614) 291-2912 fax: (614) 291-2867 cost: $895 (plus tax); runtime version with a site-license for a single user (at a time), no limit on the number of machines in a cluster. $895 includes support/maintenance and upgrades. source code more. additional user licenses $360. the name of the package has become ape iii (tm). khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy, as are avs and explorer. see also: comp.graphics.avs platforms: convex, cray, dec, evans & sutherland, hp, ibm, kubota, set technologies, sgi, stardent, sun, wavetracer availability: avs4 available on all the above: for all unix workstations. contact: advanced visual systems inc. 300 fifth ave. waltham, ma 02154 (617)-890-4300 telephone (617)-890-8287 fax avs@avs.com email advanced visual systems inc. for: cray, hp, ibm, sgi, stardent, sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc. or cray for cray dec for dec evans & sutherland for evans & sutherland advanced visual systems inc. or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc. for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site: for modules, data sets, other info: avs.ncsc.org (128.109.178.23) in a nutshell it's a package of the same genre as avs,explorer,etc. it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system (imho) major elements are: - a visual programming language, which automatically exploits the inherent - a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point, filter, io, transform, morphological, segmentation, and measurement operations. a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast, merge, synchronization, conditional, and sequencing control strategies. wit delivers an object-oriented, distributed, visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems. users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad-like workspace by adding their own operators (c functions), objects (data structures), and servers (specialized hardware). wit runs on sun, hp9000/7xx, sgi and supports datacube mv-20/200 hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real-time. for a free wit demo disk, call, fax, or e-mail (poon@ee.ubc.ca) us stating your complete name, address, voice, fax, e-mail info. and desired platform. pricing: wit for sparc, one yr. free upgrades, 30 days technical support....................$5000 us academic institutions: discounts available contact: logical vision ltd. suite 108-3700 gilmore way burnaby, b.c., canada v5g 4m1 tel: 604-435-2587 fax: 604-435-8840 terry arden <poon@ee.ubc.ca> vis-5d a system for visually exploring the output of 5-d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models. platforms: sgi iris with vgx, gtx, tg, or g graphics, sgi crimson or indigo (r4000, elan graphics suggested), irix 4.0.x ibm rs/6000 with gl graphics, aix version 3 or later; stardent gs-1000 and gs-2000 (with truecolor display) in any case, 32 (or more) mb of ram are suggested. you can get it freely (thanks to nasa support) via anonymous ftp: ftp iris.ssec.wisc.edu (or ftp 144.92.108.63), then ftp> cd pub/vis5d ftp> ascii ftp> get readme ftp> bye note: you can find the package also on wuarchive.wustl.edu in the graphics/graphics/packages directory. read section 2 of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis-5d. contact: bill hibbard (whibbard@vms.macc.wisc.edu) brian paul (bpaul@vms.macc.wisc.edu) dataexplorer (ibm) platforms : ibm risc system 6000, ibm power visualization server (simd mesh 32 i860s, 40 mhz) working on (announced) : sgi, hp, sun contact: your local ibm rep. for a trial package ask your rep to contact : david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh(kilcore), (708) 981-4510 data visualizer, personal visualizer, advanced visualizer. platforms: sgi, sun, ibm rs6000, hp, dec availability: available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies. educational programs and site licenses are contacts: mike wilson (mike@wti.com) wavefront technologies, inc. 530 east montecito street santa barbara, ca 93103 805-962-8117 fax: 805-963-0410 wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat 21-23 b-9000 gent, belgium 32-91-25-45-55 fax: 32-91-23-44-56 wavefront technologies japan 17f shinjuku-sumitomo bldg 2-6-1 nishi-shinjuku, shunjuku-ku tokyo 168 japan 81-3-3342-7330 fax 81-3-3342-7353 plot3d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least (for fast ask pat elson <pelson@nas.nasa.gov> for distribution information). in general, these codes are for us citizens only :-( on the contrib tape of x11r5. its specialty is display of up to 64 data sets (2d). national center for atmospheric research. one of the original graphics packages. runs on sun, rs6000, sgi, vax, cray y-mp, decstations, and more. contact: graphics information ncar scientific computing division p.o. box 3000 boulder, co 80307-3000 (303)-497-1201 scdinfo@ncar.ucar.edu cost: .edu $750 unlimited users .gov $750 1 user $1500 5 users $3000 25 users .com users multiply .gov * 2.0 an environment for scientific computing and visualization. based on an array oriented language, idl includes 2d and 3d graphics, matrix manupulation, signal and image processing, basic statistics, gridding, mapping, and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications (open look, motif, or ms-windows). environments: dec (vms and ultrix), hp, ibm rs6000, sgi, sun, microsoft windows. (mac version in progress) cost: $1500 to $3750, educational and quantity discounts see also: comp.lang.idl-pvwave (the idl-pvwave bundle) contact: research systems inc. 777 29th street, suite 302 boulder, co 80303 phone: 303-786-9900 fax: 303-786-9909 e-mail: info@rsinc.com demo available via ftp. call or e-mail for details. idl/sips "a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips. this was developed at the university of colorado (boulder) by some people working for alex goetz. you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it. it's a few thousand dollars (american) i expect for idl and the other should be free. those are the general purpose packages i've heard of, besides what terramar has. sips _was_ written for aviris imagery. i'm not sure how general purpose it is. you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask. i have another piece of software (pcw) that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification (you can compute an image using selected components). i've used it on 70 megabyte aviris images without problems, but for the best speed you need an external dsp card. it will work without it, but large images take quite a while (50-70 times as long) to process. that's a freebie if you want it" "my favorite is idl (interactive data language) from research systems, inc. idl is in my opinion, much better and infinitely easier. its programming language is very strong and easy -- very pascal-like. it handles the number-crunching very well, also. personally, i like doing the number-crunching with idl on the vax (or mathematica, igor, or even excel on the mac if it's not too hairy), then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part. i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn't handle, and the speed and ease of use (compared to iraf) was incredible. by the way, it's mostly astronomical image processing which i've been doing. this means image enhancement, cleaning up bad lines/pixels, and some other traditional image processing routines. then, for example, taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse, then doing a curve fit to that line (which i might do like in kaleidagraph.) " [ for idl call research systems , for pv-wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado @ boulder . from what i can understand, you can get packaged programs from research systems, though -- nfotis ] contact robert haimes, mit an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets. platforms: sgi, ibm, hp, sun, x-terminals availability: currently available on all of the above platforms. educational programs and volume discounts are available. contact: intelligent light p.o. box 65 fair lawn, nj 07410 (201)794-7550 steve kramer (kramer@ilight.com) scian is primarily intended to do 3-d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame-accurate video recording devices. a user manual, on-line help, and technical notes will help you use the program. cost : 0 (free), source code provided via ftp. platforms : sgi 4d machines and ibm rs/6000 with the gl card + z-buffer where to find it: ftp.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.34] : /pub/scian a mirror is monu1.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.101] : /pub/scian [ from the readme : ] scry is a distributed image handling system that pro- vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks, image viewing on workstations, recording on video equipment, and storage on disk. the system can be distri- buted among workstations, between supercomputers and works- tations, and between supercomputers, workstations and video animation controllers. the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data, complex 3d data sets, and image processing operations. both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix-like c run-time environments, and 4bsd sockets. the source is available for anonymous ftp: csam.lbl.gov [128.3.254.6] : pub/scry.tar.z contact: bill johnston, (wejohnston@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!johnston) david robertson (dwrobertson@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!davidr) imaging technologies group ms 50b/2239 lawrence berkeley laboratory 1 cyclotron road berkeley, ca 94720 svlib / fvs svlib is an x-windows widget set based on the osf (open software foundation) motif widget set. svlib widgets are macro-widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons, scrollbars, menus, and drawing areas. it is designed to address the reusability of 2d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation, image display, and contour plotting. it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf/motif. currently, only color monitors are supported. since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf/motif user interface widget set, it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets. programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets. fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics (cfd) simulations. fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically. fvs accepts three-dimensional multi-block data recorded in ncsa hdf format. iti.gov.sg [192.122.132.130] : /pub/svlib (scientific visualization) /pu/fvs; these directories contain demo binaries for sun4/sgi cost : us$200 for academic and us$300 for non-academic institutions. (for each of the above items). you're getting the source for the licence. miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building 71, sicence park drive singapore 0511 republic of singapore tel : (65)7720435 fax : (65)7795966 email : leehian@iti.gov.sg gvlware distribution: bob - an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz - a disk based movie player for the sgi icol - motif color editor the army high performance computing research center (ahpcrc) has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent 2d and 3d data sets. in the graphics and visualization lab (gvl) we are using these tools along side standard packages, such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit, to render 3d volumes and create digital movies. a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called "gvlware". gvlware, currently consisting of bob, raz and icol, is now available via ftp. the most interesting program is probably bob, an interactive volume renderer for the sgi. raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen, enabling movies larger than memory to be played. icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz. source and pre-built binaries for irix 4.0.5 are included. to acquire gvlware, anonymous ftp to: machine - ftp.arc.umn.edu file - /pub/gvl.tar.z to use gvlware: mkdir gvl ; cd gvl zcat gvl.tar.z | tar xvf - more readme some bob features: motif interface, sgi gl rendering renders 64 cubed data set in 0.1 to 1.0 seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering, in perspective (only maximum value rendering on personal iris) data must be a "brick of bytes", on a regularly spaced grid animation, subvolumes, subsampling, stereo some raz features: motif interface, sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition, then streams to screen (requires an empty disk partition to be set aside) script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory, like ncsa ximage some icol features: motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb, hsv and yuv color spaces, multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi, sun, dec and cray systems btw: bob == brick of bytes icol == interpolated color raz == ? (just a name) please send any comments to gvlware@ahpcrc.umn.edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo3-89-c-0038 with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center. imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization. it does volume rendering, binary surface rendering, multiplanar reformating, image manipulation, cine sequencing, intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities. it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers, image database functionality and interconnection to most medical (ct/mri/etc) scanners. it is client/server based and provides an object oriented interface. it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available. it is robust, efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications. cost: $20k for oem developer, $10k for educational developer and run times starting at $8900 and going down based on quantity. the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto. available from: isg technologies 6509 airport road mississauga, ontario, canada, l4v-1s7 (416) 672-2100 e-mail: rod gilchrist <rod@isgtec.com> 18. molecular visualization stuff [ based on a list from cristy@dupont.com < cristy > , which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics, md for short ] it is a public domain package written by michael pique, at the scripps research institute, la jolla, ca. flex is stored as a compressed, tar'ed archive (about 3.4mb) at perutz.scripps.edu [137.131.152.27], in pub/flex. it displays molecular models and md trajectories. (for macintosh). i searched with archie, and the most promising place is sumex-aim.stanford.edu (info-mac/app, and info-mac/art/qt for a demo) md-display runs on sgi machines. call terry lybrand (lybrand@milton.u.washington.edu). it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more. it uses the xview toolkit. call duncan mcree <dem@scripps.edu> landman@hal.physics.wayne.edu: i am writing my own visualization code right now. i look at md output (a specific format, easy to alter for the subroutine) on pc's. my program has hooks into gks. if your friend has access to phigs for x (pex) and fortran bindings, i would be happy to share my evolving code (free of charge). right now it can display supercells of up to 65 atoms (easy to change), and up to 100 time steps, drawing nearest neighbor bonds between 2 defining nn radii. it works acceptably fast on a 10mhz 286. icsg0001@caesar.cs.montana.edu: i did a project on molecular visualization for my master's thesis, using unix/x11/motif which generates a simple point and space-filling model. kgngraf is part of motecc-91. look on malena.crs4.it (156.148.7.12), in pub/motecc. motecc.info.txt information about motecc-91 in plain ascii format. motecc.info.troff information about motecc-91 in troff format. motecc.form.troff motecc-91 order form in troff format. motecc.license.troff motecc-91 license agreement in troff format. motecc.info.ps information about motecc-91 in postscript format. motecc.form.ps motecc-91 order form in postscript format. motecc.license.ps motecc-91 license agreement in postscript format. ditolla@itnsg1.cineca.it: i'm working on molecular dynamic too. a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics. we are working to improve it, but it doesn't work under x, we are using the graphi. lib. of the silicon gr. because they are much faster then x. when we'll end it we'll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp. (will be free software). xball v2.0 written by david nedde. call daven@maxine.wpi.edu. an x window system program that uses osf/motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data. data from several common file formats can be read and written; current formats include: alchemy, chemlab-ii, gaussian, molsim, mopac, pdb, and msci's xyz format (which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats). xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats. xmol is available at ftp.msc.edu. read pub/xmol/readme for further details. insight ii from biosym technologies inc. the program has been published in j. molecular graphics 10 (1992) 33. the program can analyze and display charmm, discover, yasp and mumod trajectories. the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces, proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program. it works on silicon graphics machines. contact leif laaksonen <leif.laaksonen@csc.fi or laaksone@csc.fi> ns.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.8] : /pub - multi 3.0 (multi-process molecular modeling suite) it runs under sunview, and requires a fortran compiler and sun's cgi libraries. mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation of molecules and atoms. currently, up to 10,000 atoms may be input. available via anonymous ftp, at rani.chem.yale.edu, directory /pub/mindtool ( check with archie for other sites if that's too far ) [ i would also suggest looking at least in sgi's applications directory. it contains many more packages - nfotis ] 19. gis (geographical information systems software) (geographic resource analysis support system) of the us army construction engineering research lab (cerl). it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package. many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package, although it is reported to have significant image processing feature descriptions i use grass because it's public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free. grass runs in unix and is written in c. the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration. you then compile the source code for your machine, using scripts provided with grass. i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget. grass is not very user-friendly, compared to macintosh software." a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines (fft). kelly maurice at vexcel corp. in boulder, co is a primary user of grass . this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi-spectral (238 bands ??) volumetric rendering, full color, on suns and stardents. it was a really effective interface. vexcel corp. currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps. you can call them at (303) 444-0094 or email care of greg@vexcel.com 192.92.90.68 host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a/ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data. grass is public-domain, and can run on a high-end pc under unix. it is raster-based, has some image-processing capability, and can display vector data (but analysis must be done in the raster environment). i have used grass v.3 on a sun workstation and found it easy to use. it is best, of course, for data that are well represented in raster (grid-cell) form. cerl's office of grass integration (ogi) maintains an ftp server: moon.cecer.army.mil (129.229.20.254). mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass-ftp-admin@moon.cecer.army.mil. this location will be the new "canonical" source for grass software, as well as bug fixes, contributed sources, documentation, and other files. this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and "tar" archiving of files. a feature attraction of the server is john parks' grass tutorial. because the manual is still in beta-test stage, john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments/corrections. the ogi is not currently maintaining this document, so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx@tang.uark.edu listserv mailing lists: grassu-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for grass users; application-level questions, support concerns, miscellaneous questions, etc) send subscribe commands to grassu-request@amber.cecer.army.mil. grassp-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for grass programmers; system-level questions and tips, tricks, and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications) send subscribe commands to grassp-request@amber.cecer.army.mil. both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration (subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign, il). the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community; while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists, we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list. if you have questions, problems, or comments, send e-mail to lists-owner@amber.cecer.army.mil and a human will respond. microstation imager intergraph (based in huntsville alabama) sells a wide range of gis software/hardware. microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of. imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis/remote sensing flavor. feature description basic geometry manipulations: flip, mirror, rotate, generalized affine. rectification: affine, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th order models as well as a projective model (warp an image to a vector map or to another image). rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion. principal component analysis. classification: k-means and isodata. fourier xforms: forward, filtering and reverse. filters: high pass, low pass, edge enhancing, median, generic. complex histogram/contrast control. layer controller: manages up to 64 images at a time -- user can extract single bands from a 3 band image or create color images by combining various individual bands, etc. the package is designed for a remote sensing application (it can handle very large images) and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications. host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations (a unix machine similar to a sun) though there were rumors (there are always rumors) that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment. a company called pci, inc., out of richmond hill, ontario, canada, makes an array of software utilities for processing, manipulation, and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different "industry standard" formats: lgsowg, bsq, landsat, and a couple of others whose titles i forget. the software is available in versions for ms-dos, unix workstations (among them hp, sun, and ibm), and vms, and quite possibly other platforms by now. i use the vms version. the "pci software" consists of several classes/groups/packages of utilities, grouped by function but all operating on a common "pci database" disk file. the "tape i/o" package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote-sensing industry tape formats into, or write those formats out from, the "pci database" file; this is the only package i use or know much about. other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci-supported third-party color displays, output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer, e.g. an epson-type dot-matrix graphics printer. you might be more spe- cifically interested in the mathematical operations package: histo- gram and fourier analysis, equalization, user-specified operations (e.g. "multiply channel 1 by 3, add channel 2, and store as channel 5"), and god only knows what all else -- there's a lot. i don't have and don't use these, so can't say much about them; you only buy the packages your particular application/interest calls for. each utility is controlled by from one to eight "parameters," read from a common "parameter file" which must be (in vms anyway) in your "default directory." some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose, so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations. the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm-pc basic, but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common, complicated, lengthy or difficult series of utility executions. (in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure.) there's also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with (read from/write to) the pci data structures (database file, parameter file). the pci software is designed specifically for remote-sensing images, but requires such a level of operator expertise that, once you reach the level where you can handle r-s images, you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well. for instance, the tape i/o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi-band (what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls "raw") data from tape, in a number of different "interleave" orders. this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic-arts industry's "ct2t" format, would probably (i haven't tried) handle targa, and so on. above all, however, you have to know what you're doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over. it's worth noting that the pci "database" file is designed to contain not only "raster" (image) data, but vectors (for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table), land-use, and all manner of other information (i observe that a remote-sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands, latitude, longitude, time, date, etc. of the original satellite pass; all of this can go into the pci "database"). i _believe_ that on workstations the built-in display is used. on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third-party display systems (the name gould/deanza seems to come to mind). one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci "database" file to a peritek vct-q (q-bus 24-bit directcolor) display subsystem. pci software could be "overkill" in your case; it seems designed for the very "high end" applications/users, i.e. those for whom a mac/pc largely doesn't suffice (although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time). it's probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada, a country which does a lot of its land/resource management via remote sensing; i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these spam (spectral analysis manager) back in 1985 jpl developed something called spam (spectral analysis manager) which got a fair amount of use at the time. that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery (byte data, <= 256 pixels across by <= 512 lines by <= 256 bands); a modified version has since been developed for aviris (airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer) which uses much larger images. spam does none of these things (rectification, classification, pc and ihs transformations, filtering, contrast enhancement, overlays). actually, it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement (stretching). spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering. the original spam uses x or sunview to display. the aviris version may require vicar, an executive based on tae, and may also require a frame buffer. i can refer you to people if you're interested. pcw requires x for display. map ii among the mac gis systems, map ii is distributed by john wiley. clrview is a 3-dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real-time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers. this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources. it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf, tin, dem, lattices, and arc/info coverages among others. clrview can be obtained from explorer.dgp.utoronto.ca (128.100.1.129) in the directory pub/sgi/clrview. contact: rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel: (416) 978-7197 email: rodney@dgp.utoronto.ca end of resource listing nick (nikolaos) fotis national technical univ. of athens, greece home: 16 esperidon st., internet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr halandri, gr - 152 32 uucp: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis athens, greece fax: (+30 1) 77 84 578 
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 now i have a couple raytracing questions. just so you know i'm using povray 1.0 (both ms-dos and unix) and i'm generating targa files of varying size. 1) ok, so i can view these wonderful pictures on my screen. what's the best way to get them on to paper? would it be possible to take it to kinko's and have them make an actual picture on paper from it? 2) i was thinking about making a small animation bit with different raytraced frames. is this a bad idea? any tricks to it? how would i get a sequence of targa files made into an animation that i could put on a videotape? is there a cheap way? 
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 could somebody please _email_ me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are, or where i can get such info? rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu 
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 i have some problem in converting tga file(generated by povray) to rle file. when i convert, i do not get any warning message. but if i use xloadimage/getx11, something is wrong. [edited] i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm, but i do not spend time to install them. even i do not want to generate .rgb from povray and then convert them to rle, if possible.(.rgb to rle works, but it will mess up my directory with so many files, and it needs 2 more steps to finally convert to rle file. say cat | rawtorle | rleflip ) does any body out there have same experience/problems ? well for starters, why use rle files? you might have a specific program that needs them, ok, but i tend to convert straight to jpeg format, thus a 2.4meg 24bit targa file becomes a ~80k or less 24bit jpeg. the latest versions of xv (2.2.1 ?) and xloadimage (3.03) both handle jpeg files. and the best way to convert to jpeg is with the c/djpeg suit. even at 90% quality (you can't see the difference) the jpeg is way smaller than anything else even an 8bit gif! later'ish |\/\/\/\/\/| "i didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, | ___ ___ | you can't prove anything." |/ \/ \| craig.humphrey@stargate.actrix.gen.nz __ccc_c_#_|__#_ccc_c____chumphre@comp.vuw.ac.nz______________________________ 
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 okay, i got enough replies about the kubota kenai/denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities. i haven't actually used one or seen one, so take the specs with a grain of salt. i'd like to see an independent review of one against, say, an sgi indigo extreme or basically, the kenai workstations are dec alpha axp based workstations that run osf/1 ( dec's ) and will likely run windows nt in the future. they are binary compatible with digital's osf/1 alpha axp implementation. denali is their graphics subsystem, which is upgradable in the field by simply adding "transformation engines". the two main kenai machines are the 3400 imaging and 3d graphics workstation and the 3500 imaging and 3d graphics workstation. 3400 3500 cpu dec alpha axp 133mhz dec alpha axp 150mhz on-chip cache 8k/8k 8k/8k onboard cache 512k 512k word size 64-bit 64-bit memory ( initial ) 32-128mb 32-256mb memory ( future ) 512mb 1gb specmark89 111 126 specint92 75 84 specfp92 112 128 transform modules 1-6 1-6 frame buffer modules 5,10,20 5,10,20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z-buffer 24-bit 24-bit alpha/stencil 8-bit 8-bit stereo support yes yes other: both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window. both have an auxiliary video output that is rs-170a, ntsc, and pal internal-fixed 2 3.5" 4 3.5" internal-removable 1 5.25" 2 5.25" max capacity 9.5gb 11.6 gb both have turbochannel 100mb/sec, scsi-2, ethernet, and fddi application programming interfaces both have libraries for xlib, motif, mit pexlib, dec-pexlib dec-phigs, and gl okay, now the real stuff. the kenai stations work with a graphics architecture known as denali. the denali comes in three models, the e, p, and v. they use a decchip 21064 superscalar risc processor at 150mhz. their capabilities are as follows: e p v 2d vectors 800-200k 2000-3800k 4000-4800k 3d vectors #1 350-1100k 1100-1800k 1800-2100k 3d vectors #2 300-1000k 1000-1600k 1600-1900k 3d vectors #3 300-500k 800-1000k 1300-1400k 3d triangles, #4 200-500k 600-1000k 1000-1200k 3d triangles, #5 100-200k 300-400k 500-600k #1: 10 pixel, flat shaded, connected #2: 10 pixel, gouraud shaded, connected #3: 10 pixel, 2-pixel wide, anti-aliased, connected #4: 50-pixel, gouraud shaded, z-buffered, strip #5: 50-pixel, texture mapped, persp., point sampled image processing cine loop - 8-bit 15-36mp/s 37-58 mp/s 60-68 mp/s cine loop - 16-bit 14 mp/s 25 mp/s 38 mp/s cine loop - 24-bit 12-21 mp/s 21 mp/s 21 mp/s contrast stretching #1 14 mp/s 25 mp/s 20 mp/s bilinear zoom 6 mp/s 11 mp/s 20 mp/s trilinear interp#2 -- 6 mvoxels/s 11 mvoxels/s #1: lookup table -- 12-,16-bit to 8 #2: trilinear interpolation, 8-bit voxels frame buffer modules 5 10 20 transform engine mod. 1-3 3-5 5-6 as you can see, these are pretty powerful workstations, and the best part is the pricing. i would recommend that you call kubota for more information. their number is 408-727-8100. i'm sure they'll send you an information you may want. oh, some prices: low-end kenai 3400, e series w/ 1 tem and 5 fbm --- 27,795 dollars u.s. kenai 3500, e series w/ 1 tem and 5 fbm --- 45,345 dollars u.s. high-end kenai 3400, v series w/ 6 tem and 20 fbm -- 61,795 dollars u.s. kenai 3500, v series w/ 6 tem and 20 fbm -- 79,345 dollars u.s. if someone could post a relative comparision with an indigo extreme or something i would appreciate it. hope this helps someone out there, ps i am not affiliated with kubota in any way. hell, i thought they made tractors or something. :-) 
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 : >|> has anyone got multiverse to work ? : >|> extn 5543, sts@mfltd.co.uk, !uunet!mfocus!sts : i've tried compiling it on several sparcstations with gcc 2.22. after : fixing up a few bugs (3 missing constant definitions plus a couple of : other things) i got it to compile & link, but after starting client : & server i just get a black window; sometimes the client core dumps, : sometimes the server, sometimes i get a broken pipe, sometimes it : just sits there doing nothing although i occassionally get the : cursor to become a cross-hair in dog-fight, but that's it. i've : sent word to the author plus what i did to fix it last week, but : no reply as yet. : peter k. campbell : p.campbell@trl.oz.au i've discovered a bug in the libraries/parser/parser.c loadcolour function where it was generating a segmentation fault. it appears the colourlist[] is geting corrupted somehow. i had it return random colours instead and everything worked great (except for a few colour problems) so i know its the only thing wrong. the colour table somehow gets a couple of nulls placed in it so when the "name" of the colours are compared it crashes. i haven't found the problem yet maybe someone else can. adrian turner university college of northern victoria turner@ironbark.ucnv.edu.au 
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 i noticed you post in comp.graphics and know a person with your name. i was wondering if you used to live in paxton mass. if so, i have a friend that would like to say hi. sorry for the inconvience if this isn't who i think it is. 
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 i would like to know if there is any software, pd or not, who could produce x11 output of hpgl file on rs/6000. and same kind of software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet. thank you | gaetan lord | voice: (514) 340-4352 | ! analyste | fax: (514) 340-4189 | | ecole polytechnique de montreal | | | p.o. box 6079 station a | | | montreal, quebec | | | canada | there's no future in time travel. | | j0t-2c0 | ********************************* | 
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 i saw an imaging program some time ago on an amiga that had cross, sobel and roberts filters for edge detection. can anybody direct me to these algorithms. ok, never heard of cross filters, but roberts, prewitt and sobel filters are standard spatial masks for edge detection. highpass filtering does a good job of detecting edges, too. a good reference for all sorts of general digital image processing is the book _digital image processing_ by rafael c. gonzalez and richard e. woods. addison-wesley publishing co. 1992. isbn 0-201-50803-6 i've used this source to do the above filters and many other things as a grad project. not too dificult to do. the worst part is loading in the images from tiff/gif/iff-ilbm/whatever! :) wayne rigby rigby@cs.unr.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38874">
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 i'm looking for a program which is able to display 24 bits images. we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x11. xli, xloadimage or imagemagick - export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] /contrib graeme gill 
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 i have some problem in converting tga file(generated by povray) to rle file. when i convert, i do not get any warning message. but if i use xloadimage/getx11, something is wrong. [edited] i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm, but i do not spend time to install them. even i do not want to generate .rgb from povray and then convert them to rle, if possible.(.rgb to rle works, but it will mess up my directory with so many files, and it needs 2 more steps to finally convert to rle file. say cat | rawtorle | rleflip ) does any body out there have same experience/problems ? well for starters, why use rle files? exactly... i didn't want to mess with tga or rle. so i wrote the following script. all you need is the very standard set of pbm utilities. this script is a .pov to .jpg converter. just run it like this: pov2jpg 1280 1024 fred.pov you will need to modify the path's in the script to reflect where you put povray and its include files. if you have a problem with disk space, you can use named pipes instead of temporary files. i hope you find it useful... #!/bin/sh if [ $# -lt 3 ] ; then echo "usage: $0 width height sourcefile.pov other_options" width=$1 height=$2 datafile=$3 shift 3 #basedatafile=`echo $datafile | sed -e "s/\(.*\)\.pov/\1/"` thedatafile=`basename $datafile` basedatafile=`basename $datafile .pov` dirdatafile=`dirname $datafile` cd $dirdatafile /afs/rnd.sas.com/u/sherman/pov/povsrc/build/povray \ +l/afs/rnd.sas.com/u/sherman/pov/povscn/include \ +o/tmp/data$$ +w${width} +h${height} +fr +i${thedatafile} $* echo " " rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.grn > /tmp/green$$ rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.red > /tmp/red$$ rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.blu > /tmp/blue$$ rgb3toppm /tmp/red$$ /tmp/green$$ /tmp/blue$$ | cjpeg > ${basedatafile}.jpg rm /tmp/red$$ /tmp/green$$ /tmp/blue$$ /tmp/data$$.grn /tmp/data$$.red \ /tmp/data$$.blu echo "wrote output to ${basedatafile}.jpg" ____/ / / __ / _ _/ ____/ / / / / / / / chris sherman / ___ / _/ / / _____/ __/ __/ __/ _\ _____/ _____/ sherman@unx.sas.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38877">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38877" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i've done a bit of looking, and havn't been able to come up with a mailing list or newsgroup for users of adobe photoshop. assuming i've just not missed it, i'll go ahead and see if there is enough interest to start a mailing list (and/or alt. newsgroup). drop me a note if you might be interested in subscribing. thanks! --bob wier (not of the grateful dead :-) ======== insert usual disclaimers here ============ bob wier, east texas state u., commerce, texas historic image processing project wier@merlin.etsu.edu (watch for address change) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38880">
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 here now some initial references; best regards - walter. @inproceedings{keirouz:et:al:90, author = "walid keirouz and jahir pabon and robert young", title = "{integrating parametric geometry, features, and variational modeling for conceptual design}", booktitle = "international conference on design theory and methodology", year = "1990", editor = "{j.\ r.}\ rinderle", pages = "1--9", organization = "american society of mechanical engineers (asme)", optpublisher = "", optaddress = "", optmonth = "", note = "proceedings" @inproceedings{yamaguchi:kimura:90, author = "yasushi yamaguchi and fumihiko kimura", title = "{a constraint modeling system for variational geometry}", booktitle = "{geometric modeling for product engineering}", year = "1990", editor = "{michael j.}\ wozny and {j.\ u.}\ turner and {k.}\ preiss", pages = "221--233", organization = "ifip", publisher = "elsevier science publishers b.v.\ (north-holland), amsterdam, the netherlands", optaddress = "", optmonth = "", note = "selected and expanded papers form the ifip wg 5.2/nsf working conference on geometric modeling, rensselaerville, ny, u.s.a., 18--22 september 1988" @inproceedings{chung:et:al:88, author = "{jack c.\ h.}\ chung and {joseph w.}\ klahs and {robert l.}\ cook and thijs sluiter", title = "{implementation issues in variational geometry and constraint management}", booktitle = "third international conference on cad/cam, robotics and factories of the future (cars and fof'88)", year = "1988", opteditor = "", optpages = "", optorganization = "", optpublisher = "", address = "detroit, michigan, usa", month = " august 14--17,", note = "proceedings, probably: springer-verlag, berlin/heidelberg, 1989" @article{kimura:et:al:86, author = "fumihiko kimura and hiromasa suzuki and toshio sata", title = "{variational product design by constraint propagation and satisfaction in product modelling}", journal = "annals of the cirp", year = "1986", volume = "35", number = "1", pages = "75--78", optmonth = "", note = "(probably) international institution for production engineering research" @article{kimura:et:al:87, author = "{f.}\ kimura and {h.}\ suzuki and {h.}\ ando and {t.}\ sato and {a.}\ kinosada", title = "{variational geometry based on logical constraints and its applications to product modelling}", journal = "annals of the cirp", year = "1987", volume = "36", number = "1", pages = "65--68", @inproceedings{chung:schussel:89, author = "{jack c.h.}\ chung and {martin d.}\ schussel", title = "{comparison of variational and parametric design}", booktitle = "autofact '89", year = "1989", opteditor = "", pages = "5-27 -- 5-44", optorganization = "", optpublisher = "", address = "detroit, michigan, usa", month = "october 30 -- november 2,", note = "conference proceedings" @article{pabon:et:al:92, author = "jahir pabon and robert young and walid keirouz", title = "{integrating parametric geometry, features, and variational modeling for conceptual design}", journal = "international journal of systems automation: research and applications (sara)", year = "1992", volume = "2", optnumber = "", pages = "17--36", optmonth = "", optnote = "" @article{kondo:90, author = "koichi kondo", title = "{pigmod: parametric and interactive geometric modeller for mechanical design}", journal = "cad, computer-aided design", year = "1990", volume = "22", number = "10", pages = "633--644", month = "december", note = "butterworth-heinemann ltd" @inproceedings{zalik:et:al:92a, author = "borut {\v{z}}alik and nikola guid and aleksander vesel", title = "{parametric design using constraint description graph}", booktitle = "cad '92, neue konzepte zur realisierung anwendungsorientierter cad-systeme", year = "1992", editor = "{frank-lothar} krause and detlev ruland and helmut jansen", pages = "329--344", optorganization = "", publisher = "informatik aktuell, springer-verlag, berlin/heidelberg", optaddress = "", month = "14./15.\ mai", note = "gi-fachtagung, berlin" @inproceedings{murtagh:shimura:90, author = "niall murtagh and masamichi shimura", title = "{parametric engineering design using constraint-based reasoning}", booktitle = "aaai-90, eighth national conference on artificial intelligence", year = "1990", opteditor = "", pages = "505--510", organization = "american association for artificial intelligence", publisher = "proceedings, volume one, aaai press, menlo park, ca, u.s.a.", address = "boston, ma", month = "july 29 -- august 3,", optnote = "" 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38881">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38881" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 could somebody please _email_ me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are, or where i can get such info? well, gif stands for graphics interchange format and was put forth by compuserve back in 1987(?) or so. it was to create a format that could be read and displayed by any system. gif is limited to 8 bit color but has a built in compression scheme (lzw?). iff is not really a graphics format, but rather a standard way to package images, sounds, animations, text, or whatever into one file. iff was created by electronic arts, i do believe (i could be wrong), for the amiga. it was quickly adopted as pretty much the standard file format for the amiga. the most common image format for the iff package is an ilbm (interleaved bitmap?) but many others exist. this format supports 24 bit color images. information on both of these and many more are available via anonymous ftp at zamenhof.cs.rice.edu in the directory /pub/graphics.formats (taken from the faq for this news group.) :) wayne rigby rigby@cs.unr.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38883">
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 sorry if this is a faq but : "where can i get a 286 (16 bit) version of pov-ray ? " any help would be greatly appreciated. i need the 286 version since turbo pascal won't let me run a 32 bit program from within my program. any info on this would also be a great help. bkidd@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au b.kidd@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au byron kidd | e-mail : computing services | 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38884">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38884" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 article 31 of alt.graphics: newsgroups: alt.graphics path: news.nd.edu!moliere!rmalayte message-id: <1993apr26.213648.26856@news.nd.edu> sender: news@news.nd.edu (usenet news system) organization: university of notre dame, notre dame does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp? for those of you who don't know, it is a composite photograph of the entire earth, with cloudcover removed. i just think it's really cool. it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project, so i would assume it's in the public domain. thanks for any info, ||"college men get smashed and break something, || -- --- || || college women get smashed and get broken." || |\ | || || -robin wilson ======================|| ------------\ || || president, ||ryan p. malayter || | | \ | | || || chico state university ||332 stanford hall || ------------/ || ||==================================||notre dame, in 46556|| | \| || || n.d. dept. of physics/comp. sci. ||>>>malayter@nd.edu<<|| --- -- || 
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 hi netters, i'm doing a project which is about image analysis. firstly, i have to find out any restrictions or limitations on the colour display on various kind of workstations, they are decstation, hp, amiga, apollo. secondly, i read from some graphic texts that image is displayed in 24 bites(please point out to me if i got it wrong). but, the images which i will deal with are displayed in 16 bites by the software they are using currently. so, will there be any problems to display them under x-windows in the future? because we are thinking to implement the gui by x-windows for our project is there any person here can help me to solve the problem or query above? or, give me some advice or suggestion where i can find them out. please send me an e-mail if there are any. thanks in advance. christine chan my address : 9130037@golum.riv.csu.edu.au 
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 what i'd like to see is the more generic n-dimensional widget set. i realize, that there wouldn't be a whole shitload of people who'd want more than 3, but why stop? all i need is a widget with up to n viewports showing me different 3-d or 2-d slices of my stuff. pat@ritcsh.csh.rit.edu*paf3580@ritvax.rit.edu*paflecke@spectrum.xerox.com "all objects are macroscopic, invisible, non-physical, or otherwise non-heisenbergish. fuck the cat!" -- me 
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 i am looking for software that reads a plot in pcx or other format and converts it into x,y coordinate. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38891">
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 could someone please tell me the best ftp'able viewer available for msdos i am running a 486 33mhz with svga monitor. i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran under windows...........thanks 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38896">
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 there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive. the file is in the msdos/graphics directory and is called "grfwk61t.zip." this program should od everthing you need. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) could you be more specific? i need that file too but couldn't find it amongst all the directories at wuarchive. z_nixsp@ccsvax.sfasu.edu 
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 does anyone know how to decode the color information of a ntsc signal ? i need to convert this data to rgb for a video capture utility i am writing for use with an ibm m-motion video adapter card... i need to know the how the v and u signals work in the color process. thanks in advance for any information or algorythms etc. later- hammonck net 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38901">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38901" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 : could someone please tell me the best ftp'able viewer available for msdos : i am running a 486 33mhz with svga monitor. : i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran : under windows...........thanks ftp to wuarchive.wustl.edu, change into mirrors/msdos/graphics get "grfwk61t.zip" this is the dos version of graphic workshop. there is a windows version which you could probably find in the mirrors/msdos/windows3 directory but i don't know what the file name is. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38903">
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 i have a very large (3x5 feet) file in macintosh canvas v2.something which i need to import into autocad 12 in the least disk-space intensive way possible. (i.e. eps is a big problem, since it took 1.3 meg to encode one page of the document) the file is entirely lines and words. i have access to networked macs & pc's, and ftp. can anyone suggest how this might be accomplished? email replies, if you would, i don't read this group much. thanks in advance. daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland, oh (help me!) i don't have ulcers. i'm a carrier. | i can't see you, so don't pretend to be i don't like spreading rumors, but what else can you do with them? | there i don't practice what i preach because i'm not the kind of person i preach to. 
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 i am interested in finding 3d animation programs for the mac. i am especially interested in any programs that don't exist in a pc port and are so good that they would make me go buy a mac. do any such exist? thanks in advance 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38908">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38908" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i just donwloaded a *.bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format. does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos, mac or unix readable format. someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine - is this correct? could someone explain the .bin format a little? this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved. you need a program that converts this to a regular file. if this is a macbinary file, you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt (if you did). if you're using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type "binary" first. if you can open the file with a text editor and find (this file must be converted with bin.... at the top, it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex 4.0 (among other programs). i opened the file with a text editor and it looks like: ^vnetwork storyboardpictpict8bim^e^...... i have already tried binhex which does not seem to work. any other ideas? niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email: niko@iastate.edu iowa state university computation center voice: (515) 294-1672 ames ia 50011 snail: 291 durham \|/--_ -_- ---- ### _- ---------------------- -0 -_- -- -__ %~- ____#0 _- elizabeth strickler |\ ^ 0\~ /\ /\ - |_(___/ \_ ||_________/ _/ |_/ \_ matess@gsusgi1.gsu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38913">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38913" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i am interested to hear from people working in the field of visual simulation, ie driving simulation, flight simulation etc. would be very pleased to see, what is going on in the field of research and industrial development. for those of you interested as well: there is a workshop (preferedly held in german), situated in wuppertal, november 18/19 1993, specially related to the above topic. the title: "sichtsysteme - visualisierung in der simulationstechnik" complete details are available. please contact me. r. moeller rmoe@welfag.elektro.uni-wuppertal.de 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38914">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38914" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 article 31 of alt.graphics: newsgroups: alt.graphics path: news.nd.edu!moliere!rmalayte message-id: <1993apr26.213648.26856@news.nd.edu> sender: news@news.nd.edu (usenet news system) organization: university of notre dame, notre dame does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp? for those of you who don't know, it is a composite photograph of the entire earth, with cloudcover removed. i just think it's really cool. it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project, so i would assume it's in the public domain. this image is copyrighted. early in another news group it was being used as a texture map in a planet orbiting simulation. that program was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the earth had to be pulled because of copyright infringement issues. mp.... michael prevost sterling software moffett field ca. prevost@eos.arc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38915">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38915" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 okay, i got enough replies about the kubota kenai/denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities. [ ... ] transform modules 1-6 1-6 frame buffer modules 5,10,20 5,10,20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z-buffer 24-bit 24-bit alpha/stencil 8-bit 8-bit does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling, but not both stereo support yes yes other: both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window. both have an auxiliary video output that is rs-170a, ntsc, and pal same question again, does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo, but not both simultaneously? -paul pmartz@dsd.es.com evans & sutherland 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38918">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38918" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi there, i'm looking for help on hi-rez cga modes (hey, i know it sounds crazy but at the moment it's got to do). my card's manual says it does something like 640 by 400 2 colour and 640 by 200 4 colour (the card has 64k memory). could anyone give me some help on how to implement these modes (assembly language is fine). any other usefull tips on the cga regs will also help. thanx in advance... my email is leander@up.ac.za 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics38920" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i'm working on a system which uses a given set of 3d key frame positions (x,y,z) to control an imaginary camera movement. i'm using kochanek-bartels splines (as described in the siggraph '84 proceedings) to create a variable number of inbetweens between the key frames. i want the inbetweens to be given in the form (x,y,z,dx,dy,dz) where the last three argumentsa are the x, y and z component of the viewing direction vector of the camera when positioned at (x,y,z). the method presented by kochanek and bartels only deals with the positions of the inbetween view points to be generated. i've tried to set the viewing direction at a view point equal to the chord between the two adjacent view points (which in general are not key frames), but this causes a sligt discontinuity of the viewing direction vector at the key frame positions (although the spatial movement seems to work fine; and i'm quite certain - i think :) - that i've not simply made an implementation error...) now i wonder if anyone out there has used this spline form for similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors. i'd appreciate replies to be emailed to me at iharkest@lise.unit.no anyone else interested in the answer will be sent a summary of the replies if they contact me. _________ __________________ \\ n g e \\==\\ a r k e s t a d iharkest@lise.unit.no comp. sc. \\________\\ \\_______________ nth (norwegian institute of technology) "some people play hard to get, i play hard to want" (ford fairlane) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38929">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38929" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a shareware graphics package called neopaint v1.1. i saw it in a shareware catalog and was hoping that i could ftp it from the net but have been unable to locate it. i have tried archie and i have gone through the entire comp.graphics newsgroup looking for some reference to it and have found none. i have also looked through the faq and also no reference. the program is called neopaint v1.1 and if anyone has heard of it or knows where i can get it i would appreciate suggestions for other pc based shareware paint programs would also be appreciated. email me your responses. much thanks, 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38932">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38932" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 lioness@maple.circa.ufl.edu: okay, i got enough replies about the kubota kenai/denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities. [ ... ] transform modules 1-6 1-6 frame buffer modules 5,10,20 5,10,20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z-buffer 24-bit 24-bit alpha/stencil 8-bit 8-bit pmartz@dsd.es.com (paul martz): | does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling, but not both | simultaneously? lioness@maple.circa.ufl.edu: stereo support yes yes other: both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window. both have an auxiliary video output that is rs-170a, ntsc, and pal pmartz@dsd.es.com (paul martz): | same question again, does this mean they can either do double | buffering or stereo, but not both simultaneously? for both these questions, it's an inclusive or. alpha plus stencil is supported (they're separate), as is double-buffered stereo. steve hollasch kubota pacific computer, inc. hollasch@kpc.com santa clara, california --- barbie had it right; math is hard. --- 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38935">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38935" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i am considering creating a "demo" for the ibm pc for my band. i would like to combine interesting graphics and a sample of my music in the program. i have seen things like this done for other platforms, and even a few for the pc, but since i'm completly new to this, i have no idea wher to start. i'm pretty sure that i am not skilled enough to put this together, but i was hoping that you (collectivly) could a. let me know what issues i need to worry about, things i should take into consideration when developing the b. perhaps someone knows of a programmer/artist who would be interested in this type of a project. i know these are rather broad questions, but any information would be most helpful. thanks!! gregory winer an056@po.cwru.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38936">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38936" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i have a little question: i need to convert rgb-coded (red-green-blue) colors into hvs-coded (hue-value-saturnation) colors. does anyone know which formulas to i have a little answer: see foley, van dam, feiner, and hughes, _computer graphics: principles and practice, second edition_. [if people would *read* this book, 75 percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight...] steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "my other car is a car, too." - bumper strip seen on i-805 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38939">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38939" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 a word of warning for those of you registering for siggraph '93. i just received my registration form back in the mail with the envelope marked "return to sender. moved - left no address. closed po box". the address i used to register for siggraph '93 is the one printed on the registration form: acm siggraph '93 po box 95316, chicago, il 60694-5316 i printed the envelope in my best printing, honest but evidently siggraph '93 has skipped town or moved? i ended up faxing my registration to: 312-321-6876. i hope that number is real! michael zyda 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38941">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38941" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave / self intersecting polygons. this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line. complex (figure 8 type polygons) can be a bit trickier. it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave/multi outline algorithm, but not tremendously faster. i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors, and the convex turned out about 10% faster. this is all c (on hp pa-risc the compiler got the inner loop [shooting the span] as fast as possible, as far as i could tell). for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time, and can be made all convex. definitely the way to go. ok, thanks for help everyone! i still haven't found quite what i'm looking for, but i've got finals coming up soon so i have to put all this on hold. //lucas. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38942">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38942" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 we need terrain data for a visualization research currently taking place in tel-aviv university. we have two databases that we are currently working on, but we would like to work on more databases, possibly more complicated and ones that will give prettier images. before i describe what kind of data we need, let me mention that we are going to present a paper titled "photo-realistic imaging of digital terrains" which describes the research and the results, in the eurographics'93 conference in barcelona, this september. we are going to show a video-tape with some of our results, so any good data that we will receive will be presented in the tape, with a mention of the donator. we are working on databases consisting of aerial or satelite photographs, and terrain elevation maps (dtm). each database consists of a 2d array of height values (any data format can be used for each value), and a corresponding 2d array of color values (can be gray-level, 256-color value or full 24-bit r/g/b values. other format can also be used). we work on 512x512 and 1024x1024 resolution databases. if anybody has access to this kind of data, or knows where we can get such data files, please respond in this news group, or - better - email us directly : amit@math.tau.ac.il (amit shaked), or danny@indigo.bgu.ac.il (daniel cohen) of course, the names of the people who will help us get the data will be cited in our paper, and in further publications. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38943">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38943" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files. could someone please tell me of some ftp sites which do posses goods gifs and a wide range. please email me at the address above. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38944">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38944" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 more people have been asking for information on the kubota graphics workstations, so here is some more info on the kenai/denali vs. the e&s freedom. here is the text of a denali vs. e&s freedom done by d.h. brown associates. denali bears a strong resemblance to evans and sutherlands freedom graphics subsystem in several aspects of its high-level design. both products use a parallel array of 29050 processors for geometric computations. both have a pixel router to connect this front end to a second array of pixel processors. as a result, denali and freedome overlap significantly in performance and functionality. both design teams also appear to have similar philosophies with respect to modularity, scalability, and market there remain, however, several important differences between the kpc and e&s products. evans and sutherland designed freedom as a high-end developer's dream system with plenty of performance potential and flexibility. in its favor, freedom has configurations from two to sixteen floating point units, a border range that starts and ends at a higher price and performance levels than denali. all freedom systems include a large, fixed number of pixel processors that support a broader variety of color blending functions. the freedom design treats its entire image memory as general-purpose memory, allowing developers to allocate it on a flexible basis to a number of special-purpose applications. finally, e&s provided freedom with very flexible otput and video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications. note that kpc is working an auxiliary board for ntsc and pal output that will not require an external video encoder. e&s programmable output features, however, will remain much more flexible. the kpc design team, in contrast, made denali more of an end-user's system. entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low-end freedom configurations, and come in at more realistic mainstream price points. denali does not need as many 29050 modules as freedome because it uses a deeper scan-conversion pipeline to support each one, resulting in better cost/performance characteristics. although both products provide strong support for 3d, imaging, and volume rendering, kpc recognized that not all users will want an even mix of these capabilities. denali's configuration flexibility allows customers in effect to purchase geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately, and to upgrade them separately as needed. both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping at workstation price levels as a way to attack sgi's more expensive vgxt and realityengine systems -- the only other products to provide this capability. kpc supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation of textures in hardware, but provides only software support for the higher qualtiy tri-linear interpolated mipmapping method. on balance, however, denali provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than e&s for most applications. aside from being much more affordable, kpc solutions deliver more parallelism for texture processing and more off-screen memory for general graphics data storage. by implementing texture mapping on its transformation modules, e&s foces customers to move very quickly to higher price levels to obtain better texturing performance. kubota avoids this problem by linking texturing to its frame buffer modules, providing a lower-cost, more scalable hope this helps, ps this was reprinted without permission. for the full text, please contact kubota 408-727-8100. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38945">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38945" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 2) yes xv is an 8 bit program. this is not a bug. never claimed it is a bug. xv can import 24 bit images and quantises them down to 8 bits. this is a handy facility, not a bug. never claimed it is a bug. how would you suggest doing colour editing on a 24 bit file? how would you group 'related' colours to edit them together? only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated. if you want to do colour editing on a 24 bit image, you need much more powerfull software - which is readily available commercially. i guess i edited my note on this away from the article i posted to many newsgroups. i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with 8bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the 24bit image. this makes sense, because the main use of xv is only viewing images. doing many changes to image, we should keep all modifications in a buffer; and then before making the operations to 24bit image, we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations. and lastly, jpeg is a compression algorithm. it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth. again, this is not a bug. never claimed it is a bug. i tried kept sure i don't claim that jpeg is noting else than a compression algorithm, because i know what the jpeg is. (you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far.) you also missed what is (were) wrong with xv. however, i did wrote it. juhana kouhia 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38946">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38946" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i was wondering if somebody knows of a pd program for converting any graphic formats such as fig, pic, unixplot, tek, etc. to gremlin. thanks, 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38949">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38949" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 |> hi, |> i'm looking for rgb (cube) --> hls (double hexcone) --> hsv (cylinder) |> conversion routines. i have rgb <--> hsv, but miss the hls <--> rgb/hsv. have you checked foley's book? the solutions are in chapter 13. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38950">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38950" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 |> see foley, van dam, feiner, and hughes, _computer graphics: principles |> and practice, second edition_. |> [if people would *read* this book, 75 percent of the questions in this |> froup would disappear overnight...] not really. i think it is less than 10%. nah... i figure most people would be so busy reading that they wouldn't have *time* to post. :-) :-) :-) steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "until i meet you, then, in upper hell convulsed, foaming immortal blood: farewell" - j. berryman, "a professor's song" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38952">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38952" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 |> i have a little answer: |> see foley, van dam, feiner, and hughes, _computer graphics: principles |> and practice, second edition_. |> [if people would *read* this book, 75 percent of the questions in this |> froup would disappear overnight...] not really. i think it is less than 10%. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38953">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38953" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 which newsgroup discusses graphic design on pcs and macs? y'know like with corel draw?? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38954">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38954" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 is there a dos screen capture utility -- pd or shareware -- that will work reliably with vesa 6a 800x600 screens? thanks, h.w. stockman, hwstock@sandia.llnl.gov 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38955">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38955" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anyone on this group use this program? it stacks up pretty well to corel draw, and since i don't have a cdrom, it was the best buy... maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38961">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38961" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anyone know of any c or c++ libraries for preparing and displaying quickly pages of mixed text, mathematical equations, and graphics (circles,ellipses,etc) on the vdu? the maths wouldnt need to be up to tex quality, but it would be useful to be scaleable. the main thing would be to be able to generate the display quickly from a minimum set of formatting code. ed campbell 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38963">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38963" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 [moved on a bit] i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with 8bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the 24bit image. this makes sense, because the main use of xv is only viewing images. doing many changes to image, we should keep all modifications in a buffer; and then before making the operations to 24bit image, we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations. think about what you are saying here. the 24 bit image is quantised down to 8 bits so many 'similar' colours are mapped onto a single palette colour. this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways. you then want to apply these modifications back to the 24 bit file, so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour. ok you could do this by copying the 24 bit file to a 32 bit file and using the extra 8 bits to hold the index entry. having done this, you need to do something to them ... what, exactly? apply the difference in rgb between the original and modified palette entry to each colour in the group? this could generate colours with rgb outside the range 0...255. it would also lead to discontinuities when different parts of a smooth colour gradient mapped to several different palette entries. you could interpolate from full modification to no modification depending how far each colour was from the palette entry. however i suspect this would look rather odd. so in summary, what i said in my previous posting still holds: how would you suggest doing colour editing on a 24 bit file? how would you group 'related' colours to edit them together? only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated. if you want to do colour editing on a 24 bit image, you need much more powerfull software - which is readily available commercially. in other words, to edit a 24 bit file you need software built for the job. tacking mods onto xv is going to create more problems than it solves. as to the other bits - you seemed to be claiming that there were bugs in xv. if that was not what you meant, then: (you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far.) yes, i probably did. i found that the collected digest format of your posting made it a little difficult to understand precisely what your point was. sorry if i misunderstood. you also missed what is (were) wrong with xv. however, i did wrote it. yes again. what *is* (was?) wrong with xv? chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38965">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38965" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hello: can anybody help me to find a program that converts a format named "raw" (also known as "img") to the "gif" format or "jpeg" one. it's desirable to be for a unix machine than for a pc. "raw" format of a n*n image is a file that contain a tail of n*n characters, each one referencing to the k*n+j pixel of the monocrome image, where k and j lies between 0 and n-1. thanxs mne@ing.puc.cl 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38966">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38966" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 does anyone know if the fabled /new/ version of pbm+ will be out soon. as far as i know the /current/ version is 10dec91. jeff p. are you out there ? ?? ? jeffrey e. hundstad 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38970">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38970" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 can anyone give me information or lead me to electronic information (not books; i'm too poor...) regarding programming the standard graphics modes? 320x200x4 and 640x200x2 are easy enough, but i'm not so sure about the rest. something about planes or something, and writing to ports and the like, but i don't know the numbers or anything -- for the 16 color modes, i think. if i'm wrong, let me know. also, 320x200x256 is just one byte/pixel; that's easy enough, but are there any other ways to write to the screen, perhaps bytes at a time, or something like that? of course, i'd appreciate any information about any mode.... which reminds me of another question -- do the supervga modes work the same, generally, as the normal 16 and 256 color modes, or is not only the mode numbers for various cards different, but the methods for writing to the screen different as well? thanks for any help you can give me... i'm developing a screen class for c++ and find myself searching for information. oh, i do have ralf brown's interrupt list, which has given me tons of invaluable information already. it just doesn't go into the screen programming details (except for the read/write pixel bios calls... thanks again. // edward ball, .sigless knight eball12@calvin.edu // 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38971">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38971" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 the otis project presents... synergy: revolt ...the first in a continuing series of collaborative art initiatives designed to exploit the binarity of the infosphere. this series of diversely structured art-manipulation projects will attempt to stretch across network boundries encouraging use of electronic mail, fax, video, photography, scanned "conventional" art and even sound to create multi-artist "still" visuals in gif and jpg formats. visualists from all technical levels are welcome. revolt will be structured simply. there will be three stages of production. the first stage will consist of all participants creating one still work as a "starter" piece that two other partici- pants will, in turn, manipulate. all first stage "base" images are due by sunday, may 23rd, 1993, midnight central daylight time. stage two will begin on may 24th. all images will be sent to another (arbitrarily chosen) participant for them to do manipulations on in anyway they see fit. for purely digital artists, this may consist of filtering the image through their favorite paint program. for "analog" artists, this may well be printing a hardcopy of the image and adding their own part with pen, pencil or white-out then scan- ning in the image again to be transferred on to the third-stage artist. all second-stage works are due by midnight on sunday, may 30th. stage three is the finishing stage and will begin on may 31st. all artists will do what they think it takes to finish up the image they've been given using whatever technique they see as worthy. these images will be due on june 6th, midnight. all involved will participate in each stage of to join, send email/mail with the following info: name: email address: mail address: scanner access? (color/grey/none) printer access? (laser/postscript/inkjet/color/dot) computer access? (mac/ibm-pc/sun/amiga/atari/next/other) output format? (tiff/targa/gif/jpeg/pict/postscript/fax /photocopy/pcx/windows bitmap) graphics level? (8bit/16bit/24bit/?) ftp access? time limitations? address the information to: email: mad-celt@cwis.unomaha.edu (andrew booth, project manager) (include "revolt" in the subject line) mail: the otis project synergy: revolt po bx 241113 omaha, ne 68124-1113 remember, all starter images are due on sunday, may 23rd. deposit them at either of these ftp sites: sunsite.unc.edu (/pub/multimedia/pictures/otis/incoming) 141.214.4.135 (projects/otis/incoming) ...send uuencoded images to us via email... ...send hardcopies to address above... ...arrange fax exchange. if you don't get your starter image in, you won't be able to participate until synergy phase ii (in mid-june). we will do our best to accomodate/facilitate image exchange for the "technologically impaired". if you don't have access to a scanner, but need one, we'll try to help. if you need an image printed out and sent to you, let us know (send an sase if you anticipate this). additional information available on the following: - suggestions for use of "uncommon" mediums (such as video stills, electronic imaging and sound) - fax availability times - "copyright" considerations (appropriation) - image conversion - the otis project in general andy booth were you ever abducted by aliens? ever see elvis po bx 241113 at the local 7-11? i would like to hear from you omaha, ne 68124-1113 about any paranormal experiences you have had. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38977">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38977" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 i read a mesg. somewhere on genie about intel coming out with a graphics standard called pci, which would supplant vesa standards. is this a rumor, or is there some substance to it. if any of y'all have heard of this "standard" please e-mail me on how i might obtain more info thanks in advance vamilliron@othello.ucd.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38978">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38978" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi there, i'm using pov-ray on my ibm compatible at home, but i would like to run some things at work on our vax computer. i believe there is a version of the source code for pov-ray that is vax specific, but i'm not sure where to find it (i've looked at the several sites where the ibmpc version of it can be found). can anyone help me? thanks in advance, ross kummer rmit,melbourne, australia internet address, rkummer@phillip.edu.au (no clever signoff yet, too busy playing with pov-ray) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics38979">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38979" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 anybody know where i can get graphics work shop? brad@utkvx.utk.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38981">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38981" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 you can use pbm's 'rawtopgm' to convert three raw (r, g, b) files to pgm format. then you can use pgm3toppm to convert the pgm files to a composite ppm file, and feed this to cjpeg for compression. slow, and circuitous, but it will 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38982">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38982" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 hi -- sorry if this is a faq, but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk *.dxf to amiga *.iff format? i checked the comp.graphics faq and a number of sites, but so far no banana. please e-mail. _______ pei hsieh (_)===(_) e-mail: ph14@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu ||||| "there's no such thing as a small job; just small fees." ||||| - anon., on being an architect hei pei. i can not help you directly width you problem, but there may be intermediate roads to take to get to the iff. i am using a converter that can take iges, iif, dxf -> iges, milespec i iges, milespec ii iges, iif, milespec i iif, milespec ii iif and dxf. iif is ibm iges format. there may be converters out there that can handle iges to iff. hope this was to any help. by the way the converter is part of the iges processor/6000 package from ibm and it runs on rs/6000 aix. best regard finn chr. lundbo ibm bergen environmental sciences & solutions centre. e-mail: finn@bsc.no 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38985">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38985" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 anyone who thinks that tiff is too complex hasn't dealt with cgm, asn.1, cda, dca, sgml, or any one of a number of other very successful file format. people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others. well, yeah, but unlike tiff they all do substantially more than encode rectangular bitmaps. and the others are hardly trouble free. i hear that it is quite common for cgm implementations not to interoperate. the annoying thing about tiff is that is that along with the 50 useful options, there are 100 stupid options. the most egregious example is that rather than picking a byte order and bit order and using it consistently in all tiff files, byte and bit order are options and all tiff readers on all machines, no matter what their natural byte order, have to be prepared to do byte swapping. there are four slightly different fax formats -- again, any one of them would have been adequate. rgb images can be stored by pixel or by component, complexity without function, etc, etc. i also note that the tiff doc says that aldus' experiments show that lzw reliably compresses as well or better than any of the fax formats, suggesting that none of the fax formats are really useful. what's worse, a lot of the formats aren't even implemented very well, e.g., lzw limits code words to 12 bits, while 14 or 16 bits would have provided substantially better compression. and the lzw method compresses bytes rather than pixels. but the absolute worst thing about tiff is that any vendor can register proprietary tiff codes and formats without even publicly documenting them. this means that there is no way to write a tiff reader that can reliably read all incoming tiff files. some standard. john levine, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|world}!iecc!johnl 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38986">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38986" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 es: i'm looking for a program which is able to display 24 bits images. we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x11. xli, xloadimage or imagemagick - export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] /contrib xv 3.0 (shareware) supports 24-bit displays, and has lots of other improvements over earlier versions. definitely worth checking out (also at export) jean liddle computer science, illinois state university e-mail: jliddle@ilstu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38987">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38987" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
<context>
 jasen mabus rpi student i am looking for a hman brain in any cad (.dxf,.cad,.iges,.cgm,etc.) or picture (.gif,.jpg,.ras,etc.) format for an animation demonstration. if any has or knows of a location please reply by e-mail to mabusj@rpi.edu. thank you in advance, jasen mabus 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.graphics38989">
<answer instance="comp.graphics38989" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 earlier today i read an ad for real-3d animation & ray-tracing software and it looked very convincing to me. yes, it looks like very good indeed. however, i don't own an amiga and so i began to wonder, if there's a pc version of it. did i not hear that there maybe some ports of real3d version2 in the pipeline somewhere, possibly unix. not too sure though please put me straight. -gary- work : serc daresbury lab. internet: g.coulter@daresbury.ac.uk uni : staffordshire university hardware: a2000/000/20 & a4000/040/120 = regards = email: = 1280x512x262000+ = = mattias = matt-dah@dsv.su.se = i love it. = 
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 get the generic version (for unix and vms) and build it. imho a vms .com file to build it is supplied. as the distribution comes as .tar.z you should either have uncompress and tar on vms or a unix flavoured machine handy. usually you won't find this on ibm-pc specific archives, but on the better ones :) +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 oops, what the hell a crosspost is this ?! have a look onto xv-3.00 before saying anything more about it's power. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 i was wondering if anyone has ever seen/heard of a utility that converts any type of image format (gif,tiff,pcx,bmp,jpeg,etc.) to an ascii representation. i have seen some very sophiticated art in ascii format, but never was i able to find the author or any program that may have converted the data from a picture format. any help or leads would be great. thanks in advance. danny dunlavy ddunlavy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 
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 does anyone on this group use this program? it stacks up pretty well to corel draw, and since i don't have a cdrom, it was the best buy... maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks? yes, i have both arts & letters and coreldraw. i personally like arts & letters better but there are things i like about arts & letters that coreldraw doesn't do an vice-versa. i haven't found the perfect graphics program that does everything yet. my favorite feature from coreldraw is that it imports alot of different formats. arts & letters does not. i like the thousands of clipart available with arts & letters. however, i do find looking them up in a book and referencing them by number to be annoying. one of my major problems is that there isn't any programs available on the market for the artistically deprived :-). betty harvey <harvey@oasys.dt.navy.mil> | david taylor model basin adp, networking and communication assessment | carderock division branch | naval surface warfare code 1221 | center bethesda, md. 20084-5000 | dtmb,cd,nswc (301)227-3379 fax (301)227-3343 | 
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 but surely you don't expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period? what's sort of interesting about this whole thread is just how much it has in common with similar threads in groups dealing with other vendor's hardware. i currently deal basically with hardware from 3 vendors - apple, dec, and sgi - and thus tend to monitor the groups about those vendor's hardware. currently, it seems like sgi customers are pissed at sgi about dropping support for the personal iris, dec customers are pissed at dec for dropping mips support in favor of the new alpha boxes, and apple customers seem to get pissed every time a new mac is introduced that's faster and cheaper than the one they just bought. when i used to be a sun customer years ago, i remember people being pissed at sun for leaving their 386 and 680x0 customers out in the cold when sparc came along. what's really interesting is that from what i can tell, the mis folks in the basement with their es/9000 don't seem to be pissed at ibm. why? i have no idea. either ibm really does take care of their customers better, or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors do. roy smith <roy@nyu.edu> hippocrates project, department of microbiology, coles 202 nyu school of medicine, 550 first avenue, new york, ny 10016 "this never happened to bart simpson." 
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 i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with 8bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the 24bit image. this makes sense, because the main use of xv is only viewing images. doing many changes to image, we should keep all modifications in a buffer; and then before making the operations to 24bit image, we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations. think about what you are saying here. the 24 bit image is quantised down to 8 bits so many 'similar' colours are mapped onto a single palette colour. this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways. you then want to apply these modifications back to the 24 bit file, so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour. i suppose you don't know what about we have discussed. we discussed about error(s) in xv 2.21 which shows images only as 8bit, and my suggestion above works perfectly with it. look be consistent. first you post something that seems to suggest that you see xv being an 8 bit program as some sort of error. so i post and asy it is not a bug, it is meant to be like that. so you post and say it is not a bug, you never said it was, i have misunderstood now you are saying: we discussed about error(s) in xv 2.21 which shows images only as 8bit, if you would make up your mind what you are claiming it would make the discussion a *lot* easier. so far i have seen a colormap editing window in xv -- that is, there must be a colormap anyway. the problems you present are exist anyway, and i didn't tried to solve them at all, because i would not make such problems to my programs in the first place. eh? sorry, i don't understand what you are saying here. i am aware that english is not your native language and have tried hard to fathom your meaning, but this paragraph defeats me. gamma and color corrections are easily done to 24bit image as i presented. there's no need make tricks from 8bit/quantized image back to 24 bit image. yes *as i originally said*, global changes are easily possible. but this statement contradicts what you said earlier: i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with 8bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the 24bit image. how would you suggest doing colour editing on a 24 bit file? how would you group 'related' colours to edit them together? only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated. ok, you're writing about situation that user want edit images as 24bit and user want edit individual colors -- your questions, by the way, jumps off the discussion a bit. no i don't think so actually. you were talking about loading a 24 bit image into xv (by quantising), manipulating the colours in the colour editor, then somewhow applying these changes to the 24 bit file when you exit xv. xv lets you edit individual colours. where is this sudden jumping off the topic? my solution doesn't work, because there's no colormap withing real 24bit yes i am aware there is no colourmap in a 24 bit file!! -- you see, user see 24bit image; going back to 8bit is silly. i do not understand what this statement is supposed to mean. about changing individual colors in 8bit/quantized/rasterized image: changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most cases if the image is quantized and rasterized -- small change may make serious errors to anywhere in the image. what are you saying xv allows this feature, but i don't recommend to use it with the mentioned type images. ah! now we see thew problem! first you want to extend xv to allow editing of 8 bit previews of 24 bit images. then i point out problems with this. now you are saying there is no problem because you, personally, happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem!! moreover, xv is not a paint program; you can only make those global not sure what you are saying here. certainly one can make local changes. in full 24bit xv, changing individual colors sounds like paint program job. if person have 8bit screen, there's need for tricks to get the original 24bit image modified. because user don't see full 24bit image, there's need to make approximations and it is not possible to modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups (if image is rasterized). to select indiavidual color, there could be 7x7 cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area -- selecting individual color is possible from that. yes that is one possible approach. i would find a program that took such an approach clumsy, however. ok, i don't have thought very much 24bit painting programs, never seen such in good view and are not planned to make such. not to mention 24bit painting program in 8bit screen... well here we agree - you have not thought it through very much. you don't seem to have a consistent point to make and contradict yourself from one post to the next. ok, we all have off days - perhaps you should step back and think this one yes again. what *is* (was?) wrong with xv? it saved 8bit/quantized/rasterized images as 24bit jpegs; jpeg is not designed for that. as i said in the last post, jpeg is a compression algorithm. it is a way of saving disk space by trading off quality against compression. i fail to see what the problem is. you have not proposed any workable alternatives. also, human expect that 24bit will be saved as 24bit image; speak for yourself. you are the *only* person i have met or spoken to who, having quantised a 24 bit image down to 8 bits, expects this process to somehow reverse when the file is saved; keeping all modificvations that heve been made to the 8 bit image palette. perhaps that is why you yused the singular? person would like to crop part of the image and save it, then it is expected that the image still is the same. look, next time you import a 24 bit image into xv look carefully at the main control panel - it tells you how many colours have been allocated to the 8 bit image. xv makes it abundantly clear that you are not editing the original 24 bit file. you are the *only* person who claims this is confusing. so, xv were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work -- design error. is a design error the same as a bug? ;-) read my lips. xv is a program for viewing and modifying 8 bit images. it lets you import other images. it shows, i would say, a good deal of thought about the human interface. and everyone else seems to use it happily for the purpose it was designed for. it makes no false claims. i have heard xv were designed first for 8bit images/files, but it were not good idea to take full 24bit images without making major change to the original design. if you would come up with a solid, logical, well argued and lucid description of precisely how these proposed extensions would work, feel free to post them. so far, you have not done so. so, even all screen images are 8bit, the processed images and saved images could have been 24bit very easily, instead of 8bit. argh!! after all this, a comment like that. `very easily'. ok, go ahead and code it if it is so easy. or alternatively, look up the terms `import' and 'non-reversible transformation'. before anybody will make a note: yes, i may as well make a lift where 'up' means that the lift goes down and 'down' means that the lift goes up, and put a note on this design solution to the manuals -- however, even the manuals tells the correct situation, it doesn't solve the problem. (americans: the lift is just an example :) i think this is a bit of an exageration. what you are actually saying is, you got into a lift (elevator, if you are in the states ;-) ) and mistakenly pressed the down button to go up. everyone else had no problem. now you are trying to sue the manufacturer... well, my text may be a bit hard reading, you bet hopefully you suggeeded to read it. mostly. leaving aside the language issue however, it betrays some very wooly thinking (as you yourself admit) which is the same in any language. go think some more. chris lilley technical author, itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit, manchester computing centre, oxford road, manchester, uk. m13 9pl internet: c.c.lilley@mcc.ac.uk voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045 fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 janet: c.c.lilley@uk.ac.mcc 
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 : i've only had the computer for about 21 months. is that a reasonable life : cycle for a lcd display? my toshiba t1100+ lcd (cga, 1986) died in 11 months. replaced under the 12 month warranty, fortunately. when it died, it died instantly and completely. 
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 ultrix/x11r4 to plot surfaces and contour plots from a set of {x,y,z}. i would really appreciate any hint on the name of such a plotting program and where to find it. thanks for your help. 
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 software retail / sale price //////graphics///////// corel draw 2.0 300 / 25 aldus photo styler 1.1 800 / 100 image in color (2 ) 800 / 100 photo finish (3 of these) 295 / 75 image in scan & paint 150 / 20 image in full pack 300 / 45 picture publisher 800 / 100 image prep 200 / 50 snap pro 70 / 20 images inc. 200 / 50 publisher's paintbrush 495 / 50 deluxe paint 2 enchance 129 / 25 softtype ( font workshop) 300 / 25 vista pro 100 / 20 optibase-workshop 149 / 35 gfa cad 100 / 25 ////////utilities ////////// x tree gold for win 99 / 25 tnt (anti virus) 100 / 15 salvation 100 / 15 amish utilities 79 / 15 ////////multimedia /////// smart text 200 / 10 music clips 149 / 25 audio tracks 79 / 15 spinnaker plus (mac) 495 / 35 spinnaker plus (pc) 495 / 35 ask me 2000 500 / 35 multi media make your point 79 / 20 madison ave 75 / 25 interface (mac) 300 / 10 mr. sound effects 50 / 10 music bytes 50 / 10 tempra show 495 / 50 storyboard plus 400 / 50 /////////programming /////// m s windows 3.1 dev. kit (full) 500 / 75 windows maker pro 995 / 50 ms c 5.1 500 / 10 top speed modula 300 / 10 ///////// business //////// the art of negotiating 150 10 telemagic 150 / 10 full impact(mac) 500 / 10 approach database 400 / 50 ascend 300 / 35 /////// games /////// nfl pro league football 49 / 15 eco-saurus 40 / 10 /////// hardware //////// modem 2400 baud 200 / 50 assorted joysticks 35 / 9 willows vga tv 300 / 50 amiga trac ball 75 / 20 ////// misc. /////// the wedding planner 49 / 10 software yard sale fri 4/30 ,sat. 5/1, & sun 5/2 8:30 to 4:00 e-mail -- pbenson@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu location: 436 nunneley rd., paradise ca 95969 phone 916 872-7905 terms: cash, check, charge (visa or mc accepted) 
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 | i'm using "rayshade" on the u.w. computers here, and i'd like input | from other users, and perhaps swap some ideas. i could post | uuencoded .gifs here, or .ray code, if anyone's interested. i'm having | trouble coming up with colors that are metallic (i.e. brass, steel) | from the rgb values. sorry, i'm not a rayshade user - but hey, it looks like this group could use some traffic. my guess is that "metallic" isn't a color, in the rgb sense. rather, it's a matter of how the surface reflects light. i'm not sure what property metallic materials have, that makes them recognizable as such, but i'm pretty sure any color material can look metallic. 
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 hello there! a week ago a guy asked what a .sco file was.sc(character). yes me, why? alex kiernan akiernan@falcon.demon.co.uk 
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 i am looking for an algorithm or pointers to any papers on how to convert quadratic splines to cubic splines or beizeirs. if source is available in the public domain, please let me know. thanks very much krishnan seetharaman e-mail : kseethar@cs.ulowell.edu phone : 508-934-3628 (w) snail-mail : department of computer science, umass/lowell, lowell, ma 01854 
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 does anyone know how to access and/or display multiple pages in mode 13h while still maintaining the 1 byte per pixel memory organization? examples in c or assembly would be appreciated... 
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 there are jpeg viewers that are windows based and therefore need no hardware specific drivers beyond those provided in windows. i got mine from the library of congress in connection with their online exhibit of books from the vatican library. see a previous message in this newgroup about that. gerald edgar gwe3409@atc.boeing.com "the opinions expressed in this not may not represent those of his employer" 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39022">
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 within the next several months i'll be looking for a job in computer graphics software. i'm in need of info on graphics software companies. i've checked the faq, the resource list, and siggraph.org, haven't found anything. the last computer graphics career handbook that i'm aware of, was published in 1991. it has a list of 40 companies in it, but no tremendously specific information on any of them. can people please steer me towards more current and in-depth informational resources? thanks. i'll post a summary if there's interest. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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 i am using an ibm dx-50 with eisa and local bus....and i need to get a local bus video card.... the only hitch is that i need one that will allow me to do the fastest anims (or flics) from ram. i have 64-megs of ram in 16-meg simms i am using 3d-studio from autodesk and imagine from impulse... they both write out in the .flc format.... so does anyone know what would be the best card for showing fast anims from ram.... ie. like the orchid, diamond stealth viper, ati....etc any help would be appreciated.... ( i am trying to circumvent the single- frame route) email me at trb3@ra.msstate.edu or just post back up here...thanks 
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 listserv told me that the list doesn't exist! so i got a global list of groups from the listserv and - - nothing! i grepped every string i could think of. if frank, ville saari, andre beck, or anyone else who's a regular on dkb-l can tell me what is going on, please do! i just sent a mail to turgut kalfaoglu (sp?), the maintainer of the list, and asked him what's going on. if the list is (for whatever reason) really dead, we might have to put up a list ourselves. but for now, i want to wait for his answer. ps: ...and i just thought this would be just another period of silence... 
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 i am unable to run quicktime 1.5 on my iivx running system 7.1, and i don't know why. (if there is a better group to post this to, please let me know.) quicktime 1.0 works fine, but when i try to run a movie in any application that supports it, like simple player, canvas or word, i get the message "sorry a system error occurred '<application>' unimplemented trap <continue> <restart>", i press <continue> and get "the application 'unknown' has unexpectedly quit, because an error of type 12 occurred." substitute simple player or canvas or word for '<application>, and the messages are always the same. if i restart with quicktime 1.0, i have no problems. any suggestions? i am at a loss. thanks in advance. oh yah, please email me as i don't check the newsgroups very often. dan bradley deb47099@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
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 : has anyone else experienced anything like this? if this just means that i : need to replace the screen then i guess i'll have to but i thought that the : "death" of my lcd screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually : happened. i didn't want to take it in to be repaired before i asked on the : net about this because i already know what they'll say: "yep, you gotta have : this replaced and it's gonna cost you $???." : i've only had the computer for about 21 months. "only"?!? that's a long time! (echoing above posting) the way the market is going nowadays, your machine's obsolete two weeks before you buy it. sounds like you'll have to sink *some* money into it for repair, but that's sometimes necessary for equipment. : is that a reasonable life : cycle for a lcd display? i think 21 months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable. if you had bought a compaq or toshiba, you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong; but that's a moot point, perhaps. sandy santra _\/_ trevor@netcom.com berkeley, california /\ trevor@well.sf.ca.us 
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 i am looking for a means to add fli and flc animation creation to a windows application. i was hoping for something along the lines of aawin or aaplay by autodesk but for the creation of these delta compressed animations. i have flilib but this seems to be coded for the large memory model of dos with turbo c. ideally i would like a dll or medium model object library, but would settle for anything, really. i've seen other windows apps with fli/flc creation, did they hack the flilib code into submission? any pointers would be appreciated, please send mail directly to me and i will summarize the results if there is interest. - andrew hudson abh@genesis.nred.ma.us 
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 where did the hacker ethic go? we hackers of the 70's and 80' are now comfortably employed and supporting families. the next generation takes the radical lead now. don't look for radicalism among us old ones; we're gone... grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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 i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix/x/motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac. [stuff deleted] i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo, but that is just "rumor" and i wouldn't bet on it until i see it. but they >are< going to release illustrator for the sgi "real soon now." charles boesel @ diablo creative | if pro = for and con = against cboesel@diablo.uu.holonet.net | then what's the opposite of progress? +1.510.687.3119(work) | what else, congress. 
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 xv allows this feature, but i don't recommend to use it with the mentioned type images. ah! now we see thew problem! first you want to extend xv to allow editing of 8 bit previews of 24 bit images. then i point out problems with this. now you are saying there is no problem because you, personally, happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem!! [ ..see previous article on this debate for the rests.. ] i can see xv-3.00 agree with my view in cases you don't -- even i say my personal opinion (as above), it doesn't mean that it is not most obvious thing. please, if you use my previous writings as contradicting argument, please do read them -- you have not saw them at all; you just refered to text from which i wrote 'something' -- and you make hard decisions from that, without reading what exactly i have written. it is really hard read when one writes a reply line by line method and don't understand include previously written material with the new sentences to give them meaning. you seem to be one such. you also start replying to my articles, even you don't understand what is going on; you ask me repeatedly to decsribe my views what were wrong with xv 2.21 even i posted them within the article you did reply to. believe me, it is not nice to get flamed specially when i know that you have not read my article carefully in the first place. xv-3.00 and jpeg faq and users i have written to agree me with the places you didn't; i'm sure you just didn't undertand what about i wrote. we can blame my writing skills (in english?) for that, or? better stop the discussion and check what new ideas xv-3.00 gives; i allready mailed one to bradley... juhana kouhia 
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 does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for mac, something i could hopefully import into a 3d program like swivel or stratavision? i know infini-d has built in capabilities, but i don't have access to infini-d. i downloaded two programs from umich, in graphics/fractals, but both were from 1990-91 and crashed under system 7. i think they were black and white anyway. please, email me if you know of anything, as i don't check the newsgroups very often. thanks in advance. dan bradley deb47099@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu yes i have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces for exactly the purpose you require, importing into 3d modelling packages. be warned, the data content is high and brings many packages to their knees. we use it primarily for microstation but it exports dxf, as well as other formats, so you should be ok. you can get it from my ftp mirror site in the us. it is wuarchive.wustl.edu my stuff is located in the mirrors/architec directory. please ftp the readme file first. paul d bourke school of architecture, property, planning pdbourke@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz the university of auckland ph: +64 -9 373 7999 x7367 private bag 92019 fax: +64 -9 373 7410 auckland, new zealand paul d bourke school of architecture, property, planning pdbourke@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz the university of auckland ph: +64 -9 373 7999 x7367 private bag 92019 fax: +64 -9 373 7410 auckland, new zealand 
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 hi. i'm looking for information on how to directly manipulate video memory. i have an application that i would like to use this for, because it is much faster than going through the bios. i know that video memory ispart of the system area above the first 640k, so i guess i am looking to find out exactly what section of memory it is, and how it is layed out. thanks. regards, gordon rogers gnr100@psuvm.psu.edu void signature(void){ 
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 within a few months, i'll be looking for a job in 3d computer graphics software. i'm in need of info on companies that do it. there's nothing in any of the faq's for this group, and nothing at siggraph.org (at least i couldn't find anything.) the last computer graphics career handbook was dated 1991, had info on 40 companies, but nothing specific on any of them. can people please direct me towards more current and detailed sources of information? i'll post a summary of sources if there's interest. also, could you please e-mail me, our news server is on the fritz. :( the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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 i need recommendations on imaging workstations. as a minimum, i have the following requirements: - high resolution graphics (black and white) for display of fax images. - support the display of multiple simulataneous windows: fax image, 3270 emulation window to ibm host, etc... - high speed network interface for 3270, image data, etc... (16mb token ring, ethernet, etc...) any information/experience would be appreciated. 
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 i am looking for the specs for the .mpg files that are floating around the alt.binaries.pictures.* groups on the net. please lemme know where i can obtain the spec or email it to me. thanks much. james d. murray add@sciences.sdsu.edu 
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 does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand? i have trouble understanding the jpeg group's code that i got from an ftp site. if any one can send me some good code, i will appreciate it a lot! thanks! the problem is that the process is inherently complicated ! the ijg's code is pretty good if you ask me, and i have watched it go through many many cycles of try getting a good book on the subject, that will explain the algorithms. specifically "jpeg still image compression standard" by pennebaker & mitchell, vnr 1993, isbn 0-442-01272-1. btw. i presume your comment about "good" code wasn't meant to sound as offensive as it does. david a. clunie (dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au) 
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 i know this has been asked a million time, but.. what was the ftp site carrying 30-40 .zips of full pov "source" files, including jack.zip and kettle.zip? i've once been there but unfortunately lost the address. i'm in a little hurry with it, so please e-mail me at jtheinon@kruuna.helsinki.fi. thanks.. 
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 where did the hacker ethic go? we hackers of the 70's and 80' are now comfortably employed and supporting families. the next generation takes the radical lead now. don't look for radicalism among us old ones; we're gone... and guess who's here in your place. please finger xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu for information, or if you are a mail/news only site, mail xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu with the subject line "send finger". daniel drucker n2sxx | xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu forever, forever, my coda. | und2dzd@vaxc.hofstra.edu 
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 i recently got a document describing the jpeg fif (jfif) file format. i was looking thru it, but i didn't get the idea how to determine the size of a pic in pixel without decoding the whole image. how do you get the height and width of a jpeg in a jfif? how do you determine wether it is a color or a greyscale i wrote a small tool (lsgif) for gif that returns the filesize, picture size and color resolution by analizing the header chunks. the output looks like this: 157605 bla.gif 640x 480 248c24 i use this lsgif to create index files of my archive and since jpeg are getting more and more popular i would like to have a similar tool for jfif, with an output like this: 57605 bla.jpg 640x 480 c24 please respond by email, because i don't read this news group very often. i'll post a summary if it is useful. thanx in advance, | lars "larry" michael (mr. gif) | "if murphy's law | | lars@itu.sun.ac.za | can go wrong, it will." | | lsmichae@informatik.uni-erlangen.de +--------------+---------------+ | spec. stud. at univ. of stellenbosch south afrika | ham: zr/db3bw | | grad. stud. at univ. of erlangen/nuremberg germany | irc: pit | 
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 perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now is the result of the natural evolution of a "successful" hacker. either you make money, go to jail (lee feldenstein [sp?]), or just fade away as "oh, that's uncle so-and-so who *really* likes computers...". what a "computer hacker" is and does will change as long as the definition of the word "computer" continues to change. james d. murray add@sciences.sdsu.edu 
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 [a lot of interesting stuff about gopher - deleted] if you've never heard of gopher don't worry it's free and on the net, write me a note if you'd like information on how to get started. best of luck, dan jacobson danj@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu i've heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back - could you post it again? i think it's of general interest. ben olasov olasov@cs.columbia.edu this is a heavily edited/modified version of the gopher faq intended to give people just starting with gopher enough information to get a client and jump into gopher-space - a complete version can be obtained as described below. once you have a gopher client point it at merlot.welch.jhu.edu and welcome to gopher-space! dan jacobson danj@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu common questions and answers about the internet gopher, a client/server protocol for making a world wide information service, with many implementations. posted to comp.infosystems.gopher, comp.answers, and news.answers every two weeks. the most recent version of this faq can be gotten through gopher, or via anonymous ftp: rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet/news.answers/gopher-faq those without ftp access should send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with "send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body to find out how to do ftp by e-mail. list of questions in the gopher faq: q0: what is gopher? q1: where can i get gopher software? q2: what do i need to access gopher? q3: where are there publicly available logins for gopher? q4: who develops gopher software? q5: what is the relationship between gopher and (wais, www, ftp)? q6: are papers or articles describing gopher available? q7: what is veronica? q8: what is available for biology? q0: what is gopher? a0: the internet gopher client/server provides a distributed information delivery system around which a world/campus-wide information system (cwis) can readily be constructed. while providing a delivery vehicle for local information, gopher facilitates access to other gopher and information servers throughout the world. q1: where can i get gopher software? a1: via anonymous ftp to boombox.micro.umn.edu. look in the directory /pub/gopher q2: what do i need to access gopher? a2: you will need a gopher "client" program that runs on your local pc or workstation there are clients for the following systems. the directory following the name is the location of the client on the anonymous ftp site boombox.micro.umn.edu (134.84.132.2) in the directory /pub/gopher. unix curses & emacs : /pub/gopher/unix/gopher1.12.tar.z xwindows (athena) : /pub/gopher/unix/xgopher1.2.tar.z xwindows (motif) : /pub/gopher/unix/moog xwindows (xview) : /pub/gopher/unix/xvgopher macintosh hypercard : /pub/gopher/macintosh-turbogopher/old-versions * macintosh application : /pub/gopher/macintosh-turbogopher * dos w/clarkson driver : /pub/gopher/pc_client/ nextstep : /pub/gopher/next/ vm/cms : /pub/gopher/rice_cms/ or /pub/gopher/viegopher/ vms : /pub/gopher/vms/ os/2 2.0 : /pub/gopher/os2/ mvs/xa : /pub/gopher/mvs/ many other clients and servers have been developed by others, the following is an attempt at a comprehensive list. a microsoft windows winsock client "the gopher book" sunsite.unc.edu:/pub/micro/pc-stuff/ms-windows/winsock/goph_tbk.zip a macintosh application, "macgopher". ftp.cc.utah.edu:/pub/gopher/macintosh * another macintosh application, "gopherapp". ftp.bio.indiana.edu:/util/gopher/gopherapp * a port of the unix curses client for dos with pc/tcp oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu:/public/dos/misc/dosgopher.exe a port of the unix curses client for pc-nfs bcm.tmc.edu:/nfs/gopher.exe a beta version of the pc gopher client for novell's lan workplace for dos lennon.itn.med.umich.edu:/dos/gopher a vms decwindows client for use with wollongong or ucx job.acs.ohio-state.edu:xgopher_client.share * note: these macintosh clients require mactcp. most of the above clients can also be fetched via a gopher client itself. put the following on a gopher server: type=1 host=boombox.micro.umn.edu port=70 path= name=gopher software distribution. or point your gopher client at boombox.micro.umn.edu, port 70 and look in the gopher directory. there are also a number of public telnet login sites available. the university of minnesota operates one on the machine "consultant.micro.umn.edu" (134.84.132.4) see q3 for more information about this. it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public telnet login sites. a client uses the custom features of the local machine (mouse, scroll bars, etc.) a local client is also faster. q3: where are there publicly available logins (ie places to telnet to in order to get a taste of gopher) for gopher? a3: here is a short list, use the site closest to you to minimize network lag. telnet public logins: hostname ip# login area consultant.micro.umn.edu 134.84.132.4 gopher north america gopher.uiuc.edu 128.174.33.160 gopher north america panda.uiowa.edu 128.255.40.201 panda north america gopher.sunet.se 192.36.125.2 gopher europe info.anu.edu.au 150.203.84.20 info australia gopher.chalmers.se 129.16.221.40 gopher sweden tolten.puc.cl 146.155.1.16 gopher south america ecnet.ec 157.100.45.2 gopher ecuador gan.ncc.go.jp 160.190.10.1 gopher japan it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public login sites. a client uses the custom features of the local machine (mouse, scroll bars, etc.) and gives faster response. furthermore many of the basic features of clients - saving a file to your hard drive, printing a file to a local printer, viewing images, retrieving files from ftp sites etc.... are not available by the telnet logins. q4: who develops gopher software? a4: gopher was originally developed in april 1991 by the university of minnesota microcomputer, workstation, networks center to help our campus find answers to their computer questions. it has since grown into a full-fledged world wide information system used by a large number of sites in the world. many people have contributed to the project, too numerous to the people behind the much of the gopher software can be reached via e-mail at gopher@boombox.micro.umn.edu, or via paper mail: internet gopher developers 100 union st. se #190 minneapolis, mn 55455 usa or via fax at: +1 (612) 625-6817 q5: what is the relationship between gopher and (wais, www, ftp)? a5: gopher is intimately intertwined with these two other systems. as shipped the unix gopher server has the capability to: - search local wais indices. - query remote wais servers and funnel the results to gopher - query remote ftp sites and funnel the results to gopher - be queried by www (world wide web) clients (either using built in gopher querying or using native http querying. q6: are papers or articles describing gopher available? a6: gopher has a whole chapter devoted to it in : _the_whole_internet_, ed kroll, o'reilly, 1992 (editors note: ..great book, go out and buy a bunch!) _the_internet_passport: northwestnet's guide to our world online" by jonathan kochmer and northwestnet. published by northwestnet, bellevue, wa. 1993. 516 pp. isbn 0-9635281-0-6. contact info: passport@nwnet.net, or (206) 562-3000 _a_students_guide_to_unix by harley hahn. (publisher mcgraw hill, inc.; 1993 isbn 0-07-025511-3) other references include: _the_internet_gopher_, "connexions", july 1992, interop. _exploring_internet_gopherspace_ "the internet society news", v1n2 1992, (you can subscribe to the internet society news by sending e-mail to isoc@nri.reston.va.us) _the_internet_gopher_protocol_, proceedings of the twenty-third ietf, cnri, section 5.3 _internet_gopher_, proceedings of canadian networking '92 _the_internet_gopher_, internet: getting started, sri international, section 10.5.5 _tools_help_internet_users_discover_on-line_treasures, computerworld, july 20, 1992 _tcp/ip_network_administration_, o'reilly. balakrishan, b. (oct 1992) "spigopher: making spires databases accessible through the gopher protocol". spires fall '92 workshop, chapel hill, north tomer, c. information technology standards for libraries, _journal of the american society for information science_, 43(8):566-570, sept 1992. q7: what is veronica? a7: veronica: very easy rodent-oriented net-wide index to computerized archives. veronica offers a keyword search of most gopher-server menu titles in the entire gopher web. as archie is to ftp archives, veronica is to gopherspace. a veronica search produces a menu of gopher items, each of which is a direct pointer to a gopher data source. because veronica is accessed through a gopher client, it is easy to use, and gives access to all types of data supported by the gopher protocol. to try veronica, select it from the "other gophers" menu on minnesota's gopher server, or point your gopher at: name=veronica (search menu items in most of gopherspace) type=1 port=70 path=1/veronica host=futique.scs.unr.edu q8: what is available for biology? a8: there is an incredible amount of software, data and information availble to biologists now by gopher. here is a brief list of the biological databases that you can search via gopher: 2. bdt tropical data base searches/ 3. biotechnet buyers guide - online catalogues for biology <tel> 4. search protein data bank headers <?> 5. chlamydomonas genetics center / 6. crystallization database/ 7. hgmp databases - probes and primers / 8. museum of paleontology type specimen index <?> 9. mycdb - mycobacterium database <?> 10. search (drosophila) flybase (indiana)/ 11. search (genbank + swiss-prot + pir + pdb) <?> 12. search aatdb - an arabidopsis thaliana database <?> 13. search acedb - a caenorhabditis elegans database <?> 14. search compoundkb - a metabolic compound database <?> 15. search databases at welchlab (vectors, promoters, nrl-3d, est, omi../ 16. search embl <?> 17. search genbank <?> 18. search genbank - 2 <?> 19. search genbank updates <?> 20. search limb <?> 21. search pir <?> 22. search pir (keyword,species...) <?> 23. search prosite <?> 24. search rebase - restriction enzyme database <?> 25. search swiss-prot <?> 26. search tfd <?> 27. search the c. elegans strain list <?> 28. search the dna database of japan <?> 29. search the ec enzyme database <?> 30. search the graingenes database <?> 31. search the maize database / 32. cloning vectors: plasmids, phage, etc. <?> 33. epd - eukaryotic promoter database <?> 34. est - expressed sequence tag database - human <?> 35. west - expressed sequence tag database - c. elegans <?> 36. kabat database of proteins of immunological interest <?> 37. nrl_3d protein sequence-structure database <?> 38. omim - online mendelian inheritance in man <?> 39. seqanalref - sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban.. <?> 40. search rebase - restriction enzyme database <?> 41. search the ec enzyme database <?> 42. search the rodent section of genbank <?> 43. database taxonomy (genbank, swiss-prot ...)/ 44. retrieve full pdb entries by accession number <?> 45. search for all researchers funded by nih <?> 46. search for genome researchers funded by doe <?> 47. search for researchers funded by nsf <?> 48. search for researchers funded by the usda <?> 49. e-mail addresses of crystallographers/ 50. e-mail addresses of yeast reasearchers/ 51. phonebooks around the world/ 52. search and retrieve software for all computers/ 53. search and retrieve macintosh software/ 54. search and retrieve dos software/ 55. search and retrieve gnu software/ 56. search and retrieve software for biology/ 57. search for agricultural software/ 58. search and retrieve graphics software and data/ 59. search and retrieve all online perl scripts/ 60. ftp sites for biology (56 archives for software and data)/ and the list goes on - this is just the beginning 
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 does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons? i also would like code or algorithms to do this. although i am not offering code, i would like to point out that any polygon triangulation code satisfies the task as stated. if you want code to partition a polygon into the *minimum* number of convex pieces, i doubt very much if it exists, although an algorithm is known. 
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 : i've only had the computer for about 21 months. "only"?!? that's a long time! : is that a reasonable life : cycle for a lcd display? i think 21 months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable. if you had bought a compaq or toshiba, you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong; but that's a moot point, perhaps. maybe. i've had an epson portable with backlit lcd since 1988 which is still used daily and the screen on that is fine. the only problem it has (and ever has had) is the "arm" of the screen is sorta lose and if you bend it fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle it round a bit. but other than that, it's been perfect! so what's that, about um, 60 months???! | justin sullivan (system administrator) | dialix services sydney | +-----------------------------------------+ modem (02) 948 6918 | | justin@sydney.dialix.oz.au | ph perth (09) 244 2433 | 
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 how can i find these files and graphics that people are downloading from their unix systems? then, how do i download them? i am a complete beginner in this (obviously), so please baby-step me through the process. first of all, i don't see amongst these newsgroups where there is anything remotely like a gif, tif, or compiled shareware program? thanks in advance for any information you can give me. (i know there is a unix command, "ftp," that will allow me to do this, but first i need to know where to go to find the file i want download via ftp, etc. thomas helke egret@wet.uucp ::wq! 
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 i put it to you thus: where has the hacker ethic gone? if it still exists, where? and, if it does exist, why are those who call themselves "hackers" allowing this to perpetuate itself? why are they not creating new, innovative, interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry? since this was posted on comp.ai, i assume there is an ai angle to this. hacking is what ai students do when they're really supposed to be doing something else, e.g. thesis research & write up, getting their supervisors' pet programs to run properly, etc. no-one gets much glory for hacking, and no-one gets any money out of it. producing good free software requires an enormous investment of time & resources that not many people can, or want to, afford - particularly during a recession. in addition, over the last 10 years, i think there has been a de-emphasis on producing running programs in ai research, and a greater emphasis on more formal approaches to problem-solving. students have been proving theorems instead of writing programs. at a conference a year or two ago, johann de kleer suggested that everyone should 'get back to the keyboard' and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas - and i have to say i'm inclined to agree. (i don't claim to be a superhacker, but i don't think that invalidates my remarks. and i'm sure this isn't the whole story.) peter jackson, dept of electrical & computer eng, clarkson university "opinions expressed are not those of my employer or any other organization" second violin, fiddling firefighters ensemble (rome branch) 
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 hi -- sorry if this is a faq, but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk *.dxf to amiga *.iff format? i checked the comp.graphics faq and a number of sites, but so far no banana. please e-mail. .dxf can not be changed over to .iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the 3d programs on the amiga. the only tools around are comercial for that conversion. hijaak claims to convert .dxf to .iff, although hijaak claims some stuff that i have never gotten to work (for example, not long ago i tried to convert some .iff files from an amiga video toaster (using crossdos, so my pc could read the disks) int targa files. hijaak made some gorgeous 1.5 megabyte targa files from the .iffs -- all totally black! mac mcdougald * any opinions expressed herein the photography center * are not necessarily (actually, univ. of tenn. knoxville 37996 * are almost certainly not) those mac@utkvx.utk.edu * of the university of tennessee. mac@utkvx.bitnet * (615-974-3449) * "things are more like they are now (615-974-6435) fax * than they've ever been before." 
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 hello all, i need to make some torso 3d scans and would like the phone numbers of companies in the midwest that make scans, and the numbers of companies that make the sanners (ie cyberware). does anyone have an idea of how much a single scan costs and the best format to save it in? i am not sure on what software platform i will be using it in, probably either softimage or wavefront. so i think a spline based format would be best. please forward the numbers to me personally as i am having problems accessing usenet lately. thanks in advance! patrick maun r5321gab@awiuni11.edvz.univie.ac.at st. paul mn 
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 could someone please post a list of good three-d modelers that will run on sparc stations; preferably cheap. thanks rws2v@virginia.edu 
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 where did the hacker ethic go? we hackers of the 70's and 80' are now comfortably employed and supporting families. the next generation takes the radical lead now. don't look for radicalism among us old ones; we're gone... perhaps all of us hackers have become (ick) professionals? i have noticed my and my associates progression from hackers to computer professionals. it is rather distasteful. it occurs when a series of things happen: 1) one's ego outgrows one's talent/knowledge 2) one's financial situation takes precedence 3) a change in priorities (esp. family) possibly leading to 2) 4) the hacker's attitude makes the shift from "fun" to "work" 5) one's vocation burns away the creativity needed for "the hobby" or the biggest killer (imo) 6) one's dreams are (sadly) shattered on the hard rocks of society's version of reality. without the dream the motivation dies, without the motivation the effort seems useless. another set of problems stems from our children. while most of us remember when there were several completely different computer systems, our children are growing up with just a few choices (msdos/mac/amiga) and do not enjoy the diversity we did. i remember the great computer fallout of the early eighties vividly as i was forced to stop using skills developed for systems that were now dead. the diversity of systems before then allowed for widely divergent paradigms. that period forced hackers to continually learn new systems in the attempt to keep up. not to mention that if a program was needed we were forced (in most situations) to write it ourselves as a commercial offering was just not available. now our children are being taught the "user" mentality. as the number of us "old-timers" dwindle we are not being replaced by the next generation. kendall sears krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu programmer /// child development unit /// amiga department of pediatrics \\\/// currently running amigaos 3.0 university of louisville \xx/ and supporting unix sys v rev 4. life is a game you play once. in order to win you must make a difference. remember: this is not a practice session. 
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 does antone know the ftp address for the smithsonian institution where one can get digitized photographs, etc ? please reply by email to pbenson@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu paul benson 
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 if anyone has a list of companies doing data visualization (software or hardware) i would like to hear from them. thanks. -- krs k.r.subramanian ph: (908) 582-6346 at&t bell laboratories, rm. 2a240 email : krs@research.att.com 600 mountain av. murray hill, nj 07974 
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 hi! everyone, i don't clearly understand 'occlusion' in computer graphics. would you please give me an explanation? btw, what's the difference between 'occluded surface' and opaque surface? thanks in advance. 
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 someone please fill me in on what 3do. there is a review of 3do in the latest "wired" magazine. you may just want to take a trip to the local bookstore and check it out (there's some cool pics too). (i haven't read it yet, or i'd tell you more.. :-) - aaron hightower 
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 simple !! look for vesa drivers in vpic 6.0e package !! many svga card supported. look for it on your favorite bbs. not tonight honey, i just received my nuvotel :-] prxfalken@email.teaser.com pascal guillaumet 3614 teaser issy les moulineaux 
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 archive-name: jpeg-faq last-modified: 2 may 1993 this faq article discusses jpeg image compression. suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome. new since version of 18 april 1993: * new version of xv supports 24-bit viewing for x windows. * new versions of dvpeg & image alchemy for dos. * new versions of image archiver & pmview for os/2. * new listing: mgif for monochrome-display ataris. this article includes the following sections: [1] what is jpeg? [2] why use jpeg? [3] when should i use jpeg, and when should i stick with gif? [4] how well does jpeg compress images? [5] what are good "quality" settings for jpeg? [6] where can i get jpeg software? [6a] "canned" software, viewers, etc. [6b] source code [7] what's all this hoopla about color quantization? [8] how does jpeg work? [9] what about lossless jpeg? [10] why all the argument about file formats? [11] how do i recognize which file format i have, and what do i do about it? [12] what about arithmetic coding? [13] does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompression? [14] what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg? sections 1-6 are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know; sections 7-14 are advanced info for the curious. this article is posted every 2 weeks. you can always find the latest version in the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu (18.70.0.226). by ftp, fetch /pub/usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq; or if you don't have ftp, send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with body "send usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq". many other faq articles are also stored in this archive. for more instructions on use of the archive, send e-mail to the same address with the words "help" and "index" (no quotes) on separate lines. if you don't get a reply, the server may be misreading your return address; add a line such as "path myname@mysite" to specify your correct e-mail address to reply to. [1] what is jpeg? jpeg (pronounced "jay-peg") is a standardized image compression mechanism. jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group, the original name of the committee that wrote the standard. jpeg is designed for compressing either full-color or gray-scale digital images of "natural", real-world scenes. it does not work so well on non-realistic images, such as cartoons or line jpeg does not handle black-and-white (1-bit-per-pixel) images, nor does it handle motion picture compression. standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees, named jbig and mpeg jpeg is "lossy", meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn't quite identical to what you originally put in. the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye, notably the fact that small color details aren't perceived as well as small details of light-and-dark. thus, jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans. if you plan to machine-analyze your images, the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you, even if they are invisible to the eye. a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters. this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality. you can make *extremely* small files if you don't mind poor quality; this is useful for indexing image archives, making thumbnail views or icons, etc. etc. conversely, if you aren't happy with the output quality at the default compression setting, you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied, and accept lesser compression. [2] why use jpeg? there are two good reasons: to make your image files smaller, and to store 24-bit-per-pixel color data instead of 8-bit-per-pixel data. making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images. being able to compress a 2 mbyte full-color file down to 100 kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time! (if you are comparing gif and jpeg, the size ratio is more like four to one. more details below.) if your viewing software doesn't support jpeg directly, you'll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images. even with a jpeg-capable viewer, it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format (gif, for instance). thus, using jpeg is essentially a time/space tradeoff: you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply. it's worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved, the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file. i'll let you do the arithmetic yourself. the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information: 24 bits/pixel (16 million colors) instead of 8 or less (256 or fewer colors). if you have only 8-bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you. within a couple of years, though, 8-bit gif will look as obsolete as black-and-white macpaint format does today. furthermore, for reasons detailed in section 7, jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware. hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard. [3] when should i use jpeg, and when should i stick with gif? jpeg is *not* going to displace gif entirely; for some types of images, gif is superior in image quality, file size, or both. one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to. as a rule of thumb, jpeg is superior to gif for storing full-color or gray-scale images of "realistic" scenes; that means scanned photographs and similar material. jpeg is superior even if you don't have 24-bit display hardware, and it is a lot superior if you do. (see section 7 for details.) gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors, such as cartoons and line drawings. in particular, large areas of pixels that are all *exactly* the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif. jpeg can't squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects. this sort of image is best kept in gif form. (in particular, single-color borders are quite cheap in gif files, but they should be avoided in jpeg files.) jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges: a row of pure-black pixels adjacent to a row of pure-white pixels, for example. sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting. again, this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs, but it shows up fairly often in gif files: borders, overlaid text, etc. the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that's only a few pixels high. if you have a gif with a lot of small-size overlaid text, don't jpeg it. computer-drawn images (ray-traced scenes, for instance) usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity. the more complex and subtly rendered the image, the more likely that jpeg will do well on it. the same goes for semi-realistic artwork (fantasy drawings and such). plain black-and-white (two level) images should never be converted to jpeg. you need at least about 16 gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray-scale images. it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray-scale images of up to 256 levels, while jpeg is not. if you have an existing library of gif images, you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg. you will lose a little image quality if you do. (section 7, which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif, only applies if both formats start from a full-color original. if you start from a gif, you've already irretrievably lost a great deal of information; jpeg can only make things worse.) however, the disk space savings may justify converting anyway. this is a decision you'll have to make for yourself. if you do convert a gif library to jpeg, see section 14 for hints. be prepared to leave some images in gif format, since some gifs will not convert well. [4] how well does jpeg compress images? pretty darn well. here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy, a 727x525 full-color image of a ship in a harbor. the first three files are for comparison purposes; the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section 6b. file size in bytes comments ship.ppm 1145040 original file in ppm format (no compression; 24 bits or 3 bytes per pixel, plus a few bytes overhead) ship.ppm.z 963829 ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn't accomplish a lot, you'll note. other text-oriented compressors give similar results. ship.gif 240438 converted to gif with ppmquant -fs 256 | ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info: gif saves 8 bits/pixel, not 24. (see sec. 7.) ship.jpg95 155622 cjpeg -q 95 (highest useful quality setting) this is indistinguishable from the 24-bit original, at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs. ship.jpg75 58009 cjpeg -q 75 (default setting) you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original, even with both on-screen at once. ship.jpg50 38406 cjpeg -q 50 this has slight defects; if you know what to look for, you could tell it's been jpeged without seeing the original. still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups. ship.jpg25 25192 cjpeg -q 25 jpeg's characteristic "blockiness" becomes apparent at this setting (djpeg -blocksmooth helps some). still, i've seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this. ship.jpg5o 6587 cjpeg -q 5 -optimize (-optimize cuts table overhead) blocky, but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes. note that this file is tiny: the compression ratio from the original is 173:1 ! in this case jpeg can make a file that's a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality (the -q 75 file is every bit as good as the gif, better if you have a full-color display). this seems to be a typical ratio for real-world scenes. [5] what are good "quality" settings for jpeg? most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs. image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting. there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings. "quality 95" does not mean "keep 95% of the information", as some have claimed. the quality scale is purely arbitrary; it's not a percentage of anything. the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting (smallest file size) that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original. this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another, but here are some rules of thumb. the default quality setting (-q 75) is very often the best choice. this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image. try -q 75 first; if you see defects, then go up. except for experimental purposes, never go above -q 95; saying -q 100 will produce a file two or three times as large as -q 95, but of hardly any better quality. if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with, you might be able to go down to -q 50 without objectionable degradation. on the other hand, you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation. the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg. the default -q 75 is about right for compressing 24-bit images, but -q 85 to 95 is usually better for converting gifs (see section 14 for more info). if you want a very small file (say for preview or indexing purposes) and are prepared to tolerate large defects, a -q setting in the range of 5 to 10 is about right. -q 2 or so may be amusing as "op art". (note: the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section 6b, and to many programs based on it. other jpeg implementations, such as image alchemy, may use a completely different quality scale. some programs don't even provide a numeric scale, just "high"/"medium"/"low"-style choices.) [6] where can i get jpeg software? most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp. if you don't know how to use ftp, see the faq article "how to find sources". (if you don't have direct access to ftp, read about ftpmail servers in the same article.) that article appears regularly in news.answers, or you can get it by sending e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with "send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body. the "anonymous ftp list faq" may also be helpful --- it's usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq in the news.answers archive. note: this list changes constantly. if you have a copy more than a couple months old, get the latest jpeg faq from the news.answers archive. [6a] if you are looking for "canned" software, viewers, etc: the first part of this list is system-specific programs that only run on one kind of system. if you don't see what you want for your machine, check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list. note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet; but some commercial programs are listed too. x windows: xv (shareware, $25) is an excellent viewer for jpeg, gif, and many other image formats. it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations. it's available for ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12), file contrib/xv-3.00.tar.z. version 3.00 is a major upgrade with support for 24-bit displays and many other improvements; however, it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking. if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge, stick with version 2.21, also available from export. note that version 2.21 is not a good choice if you have a 24-bit display (you'll get only 8-bit color), nor for converting 24-bit images to jpeg. but 2.21 works fine for converting gif and other 8-bit images to jpeg. caution: there is a glitch in version 2.21: be sure to check the "save at normal size" checkbox when saving a jpeg file, or the file will be blurry. another good choice for x windows is john cristy's free imagemagick package, also available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/imagemagick.tar.z. this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks. the imagemagick viewer handles 24-bit displays correctly; for colormapped displays, it does better (though slower) color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software. both of the above are large, complex packages. if you just want a simple image viewer, try xloadimage or xli. xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release, 3.03. xloadimage is free and available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/xloadimage-3.03.tar.z. xli is a variant version of xloadimage, said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original. (the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage, at least with respect to jpeg files, because it has the ijg v4 decoder while xloadimage 3.03 is using a hacked-over v1. the next xloadimage release will fix this.) xli is also free and available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/xli.1.14.tar.z. both programs are said to do the right thing with 24-bit displays. ms-dos: this covers plain dos; for windows or os/2 programs, see the next headings. one good choice is eric praetzel's free dvpeg, which views jpeg and gif files. the current version, 2.5, is available by ftp from sunee.uwaterloo.ca (129.97.50.50), file pub/jpeg/viewers/dvpeg25.zip. this is a good basic viewer that works on either 286 or 386/486 machines. the user interface is not flashy, but it's functional. another freeware jpeg/gif/tga viewer is mohammad rezaei's hiview. the current version, 1.2, is available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/hv12.zip. hiview requires a 386 or better cpu and a vcpi-compatible memory manager (qemm386 and 386max work; windows and os/2 do not). hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen. for larger images, it scales the image down to fit on the screen (rather than using panning/scrolling as most viewers do). you may or may not prefer this approach, but there's no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably. note: installation is a bit tricky; read the directions carefully! a shareware alternative is colorview for dos ($30). this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives. its user interface is also much spiffier-looking, although personally i find it harder to use --- more keystrokes, inconsistent behavior. it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview, at least on my hardware. (for images larger than screen size, dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed, and both are faster than hiview.) the current version is 2.1, available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/dcview21.zip. requires a vesa graphics driver; if you don't have one, look in vesadrv2.zip or vesa-tsr.zip from the same directory. (many recent pcs have a built-in vesa driver, so don't try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing.) a second shareware alternative is fullview, which has been kicking around the net for a while, but i don't know any stable archive location for it. the current (rather old) version is inferior to the above viewers anyway. the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel20 archives at that time. the well-known gif viewer compushow (cshow) supports jpeg in its latest revision, 8.60a. however, cshow's jpeg implementation isn't very good: it's slow (about half the speed of the above viewers) and image quality is poor except on hi-color displays. too bad ... it'd have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow. shareware, $25. available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/gif/cshw860a.zip. due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware, any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine. if you can't get *any* of them to work, you'll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif, then view with your favorite gif viewer. (if you have hi-color hardware, don't use gif as the intermediate format; try to find a targa-capable viewer instead. vpic5.0 is reputed to do the right thing with hi-color displays.) the independent jpeg group's free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/jpeg4.zip (or jpeg4386.zip if you have a 386 and extended memory). these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section 6b; they will convert jpeg to and from gif, targa, and ppm formats. handmade software offers free jpeg<=>gif conversion tools, gif2jpg/jpg2gif. these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format; in particular, you can't get 24-bit color output from a jpeg. the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi's proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet-standard jfif format. since hsi-format files are rather widespread on bbses, this is a useful capability. version 2.0 of these tools is free (prior versions were shareware). get it from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/gif2jpg2.zip. note: do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet, since it is not readable on non-pc platforms. handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package, image alchemy. this will translate jpeg files (both jfif and hsi formats) to and from many other image formats. it can also display images. a demo version of image alchemy version 1.6.2 is available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/alch162.zip. note about simtel20: the internet's key archive site for pc-related programs is simtel20, full name wsmr-simtel20.army.mil (192.88.110.20). simtel20 runs a non-unix system with weird directory names; where this document refers to directory (eg) "msdos/graphics" at simtel20, that really means "pd1:<msdos.graphics>". if you are not physically on milnet, you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel20. there are several internet sites that maintain copies (mirrors) of the simtel20 archives; most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead. a popular usa mirror site is oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117), which keeps simtel20 files in (eg) "/pub/msdos/graphics". if you have no ftp capability, you can retrieve files from simtel20 by e-mail; see informational postings in comp.archives.msdos.announce to find out how. if you are outside the usa, consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel20 mirror is. microsoft windows: there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images. (windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware, due to windows' system overhead. note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window.) the newest entry is winecj, which is free and extremely fast. version 1.0 is available from ftp.rahul.net, file /pub/bryanw/pc/jpeg/wecj.zip. requires windows 3.1 and 256-or-more-colors mode. this is a no-frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes; and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers. but it's so fast you'll use it anyway, at least for previewing... jview is freeware, fairly fast, has good on-line help, and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format; but it can't create new jpeg files, and it doesn't view gifs. jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers (such as brightness adjustment), but it's an excellent basic viewer. the current version, 0.9, is available from ftp.cica.indiana.edu (129.79.20.84), file pub/pc/win3/desktop/jview090.zip. (mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites, including wuarchive.wustl.edu.) winjpeg (shareware, $20) displays jpeg,gif,targa,tiff, and bmp image files; it can write all of these formats too, so it can be used as a converter. it has some other nifty features including color-balance adjustment and slideshow. the current version is 2.1, available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note above), file msdos/windows3/winjp210.zip. (this is a slow 286-compatible version; if you register, you'll get the 386-only version, which is roughly 25% faster.) colorview is another shareware entry ($30). this was an early and promising contender, but it has not been updated in some time, and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg. if you want to try it anyway, the current version is 0.97, available from ftp.cica.indiana.edu, file pub/pc/win3/desktop/cview097.zip. (i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos.) dvpeg (see dos heading) also works under windows, but only in full-screen mode, not in a window. os/2: the following files are available from hobbes.nmsu.edu (128.123.35.151). note: check /pub/uploads for more recent versions --- the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/jpegv4.zip 32-bit version of free ijg conversion programs, version 4. /pub/os2/all/graphics/jpeg4-16.zip 16-bit version of same, for os/2 1.x. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/imgarc12.zip image archiver 1.02: image conversion/viewing with pm graphical interface. strong on conversion functions, viewing is a bit weaker. shareware, $15. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmjpeg11.zip pmjpeg 1.1: os/2 2.x port of winjpeg, a popular viewer for windows (see description in windows section). shareware, $20. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmview85.zip pmview 0.85: jpeg/gif/bmp viewer. gif viewing very fast, jpeg viewing fast if you have huge amounts of ram, otherwise about the same speed as the above programs. strong 24-bit display support. shareware, $20. macintosh: most mac jpeg programs rely on apple's jpeg implementation, which is part of the quicktime system extension; so you need to have quicktime installed. to use quicktime, you need a 68020 or better cpu and you need to be running system 6.0.7 or later. (if you're running system 6, you must also install the 32-bit quickdraw extension; this is built-in on system 7.) you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/quicktime.hqx. (as of 11/92, this file contains quicktime 1.5, which is better than qt 1.0 in several ways. with respect to jpeg, it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file. however, some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt 1.5.) mac users should keep in mind that quicktime's jpeg format, pict/jpeg, is not the same as the usenet-standard jfif jpeg format. (see section 10 for details.) if you post images on usenet, make sure they are in jfif format. most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format. the first choice is probably jpegview, a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format, pict/jpeg format, or gif format. it also can convert between the two jpeg formats. the current version, 2.0, is a big improvement over prior versions. get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu (36.44.0.6), file /info-mac/app/jpeg-view-20.hqx. requires system 7 and quicktime. on 8-bit displays, jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers. jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers; in fact, it's the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over 640x480 pixels on a typical 4mb mac. given a large image, jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen, rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers. (you can zoom in on any desired portion, though.) some people like this behavior, some don't. overall, jpegview's user interface is very well thought out. gifconverter, a shareware ($40) image viewer/converter, supports jfif and pict/jpeg, as well as gif and several other image formats. the latest version is 2.3.2. get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/art/gif/gif-converter-232.hqx. requires system 6.0.5 or later. gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg/gif viewer, but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities, so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images. also, the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images *without* quicktime, so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime. (but it's faster with quicktime.) note: if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg, try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert, then viewing the gif version. jpeg convert, a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities, is available from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/app/jpeg-convert-10.hqx. this will run on any mac, but it only does file conversion, not viewing. you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer. previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v0.6, a jpeg<=>gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code. if you are using this program, you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert. apple's free program pictpixie can view images in jfif, quicktime jpeg, and gif format, and can convert between these formats. you can get pictpixie from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/qt.1.0.stuff/pictpixie.hqx. requires quicktime. pictpixie was intended as a developer's tool, and it's really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime. some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory, it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a 24-bit display, and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface. worse, pictpixie is an unsupported program, meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix. (there is an old version of pictpixie, called pictcompressor, floating around the net. if you have this you should trash it, as it's even buggier. also, the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned-up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor. note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net.) storm technology's picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer/converter. this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways, but it will run without system 7 or quicktime, so you may be forced to use it on older systems. (it does need 32-bit quickdraw, so really old machines can't use it.) you can get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/app/picture-decompress-201.hqx. you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to 'jpeg' to allow picture decompress to open it. if your machine is too old to run 32-bit quickdraw (a mac plus for instance), gifconverter is your only choice for single-program jpeg viewing. if you don't want to pay for gifconverter, use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer. more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg, although not all can deal with the usenet-standard jfif format. adobe photoshop, version 2.0.1 or later, can read and write jfif-format jpeg files (use the jpeg plug-in from the acquire menu). you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to 'jpeg' to allow photoshop to recognize it. amiga: (most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga.physik.unizh.ch (130.60.80.80). there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one. in the usa, a good choice is wuarchive.wustl.edu; look under /mirrors/amiga.physik.unizh.ch/...) hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer/converter, as well as being a general image manipulation tool. it's cheap (shareware, $20) and can read several formats besides jpeg. the current version is 2.0.8. a demo version is available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/gfx/edit/hamlab208d.lha. the demo version will crop images larger than 512x512, but it is otherwise fully functional. rend24 (shareware, $30) is an image renderer that can display jpeg, ilbm, and gif images. the program can be used to create animations, even capturing frames on-the-fly from rendering packages like lightwave. the current version is 1.05, available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/os30/gfx/rend105.lha. (note: although this directory is supposedly for amigados 3.0 programs, the program will also run under amigados 1.3, 2.04 or 2.1.) viewtek is a free jpeg/ilbm/gif/anim viewer. the current version is 1.04, available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/gfx/show/viewtek104.lha. if you're willing to spend real money, there are several commercial packages that support jpeg. two are written by thomas krehbiel, the author of rend24 and viewtek. these are cinemorph, a standalone image morphing package, and imagefx, an impressive 24-bit image capture, conversion, editing, painting, effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph. both are distributed by great valley products. art department professional (adpro), from asdg inc, is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas. imagemaster, from black belt systems, is another well-regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support. the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites) in directory amiga/gfx/conv, file amigajpegv4.lha. these programs convert jpeg to/from ppm,gif,targa formats. the amiga world is heavily infested with quick-and-dirty jpeg programs, many based on an ancient beta-test version of the free ijg jpeg software (thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk-of-the-month, without so much as notifying the authors). among these are "augjpeg", "newamyjpeg", "vjpeg", and probably others i have not even heard of. in my opinion, anything older than ijg version 3 (march 1992) is not worth the disk space it's stored on; if you have such a program, trash it and get something newer. atari st: the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st, tt, etc, from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/graphics/jpeg4bin.zoo. these programs convert jpeg to/from ppm, gif, targa formats. for monochrome st monitors, try mgif, which manages to achieve four-level grayscale effect by flickering. version 4.1 reads jpeg files. available from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/graphics/mgif41b.zoo. i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg-capable viewers for ataris, but surely there must be some by now? pointers appreciated. acorn archimedes: !changefsi, supplied with risc os 3 version 3.10, can convert from and view jpeg jfif format. provision is also made to convert images to jpeg, although this must be done from the cli rather than by double-clicking. recent versions (since 7.11) of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg, along with about 30 other image formats. while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards, the current version is only available by registering with the author, john kortink, nutterbrink 31, 7544 wj, enschede, the netherlands. price 35 dutch guilders (about $22 or 10 pounds). there's also a commercial product called !jpeg which provides jpeg read/write functionality and direct jpeg viewing, as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options. this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs. contact: dt software, freepost, cambridge, uk. tel: 0223 841099. portable software for almost any system: if none of the above fits your situation, you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in 6b. you'll also need a viewer program. if your display is 8 bits or less, any gif viewer will do fine; if you have a display with more color capability, try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm 24-bit image files. there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings, with more popping up every day. i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow. in that case, purchase a hardware-assisted product. ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format; many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else's files. [6b] if you are looking for source code to work with: free, portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group, which i lead. a package containing our source code, documentation, and some small test files is available from several places. the "official" archive site for this source code is ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9 or 192.48.96.9). look under directory /graphics/jpeg; the current release is jpegsrc.v4.tar.z. (this is a compressed tar file; don't forget to retrieve in binary mode.) you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp. if you are on a pc and don't know how to cope with .tar.z format, you may prefer zip format, which you can find at simtel20 and mirror sites (see note above), file msdos/graphics/jpegsrc4.zip. this file will also be available on compuserve, in the graphsupport forum (go pics), library 15, as jpsrc4.zip. if you have no ftp access, you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp.sources.misc archive; version 4 appeared as issues 55-72 of volume 34. (if you don't know how to retrieve comp.sources.misc postings, see the faq article "how to find sources", referred to at the top of section 6.) the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg "jfif" format and image files in gif, pbmplus ppm/pgm, utah rle, and truevision targa file formats. the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs, such as image viewers. the package is highly portable; we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays. we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use. companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg-related products. we do not ask a royalty, although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature (see the readme file in the distribution for details). we hope to make this software industrial-quality --- although, as with anything that's free, we offer no warranty and accept no liability. the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization; if you'd like to contribute to improving our software, you are welcome to join. [7] what's all this hoopla about color quantization? most people don't have full-color (24 bit per pixel) display hardware. typical display hardware stores 8 or fewer bits per pixel, so it can display 256 or fewer distinct colors at a time. to display a full-color image, the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors. this process is called "color quantization". (this is something of a misnomer, "color selection" would be a better term. we're stuck with the standard usage though.) clearly, color quantization is a lossy process. it turns out that for most images, the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg (except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings). since jpeg is a full-color format, converting a color jpeg image for display on 8-bit-or-less hardware requires color quantization. this is true for *all* color jpegs: even if you feed a 256-or-less-color gif into jpeg, what comes out of the decompressor is *not* 256 colors, but thousands of colors. this happens because jpeg's lossiness affects each pixel a little differently, so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors. each original color gets "smeared" into a group of nearby colors. therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display, regardless of the image source. the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray-scale output. (incidentally, because of this effect it's nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image. even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values, different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences. i occasionally see posted images described as "256-color jpeg". this tells me that the poster (a) hasn't read this faq and (b) probably converted the jpeg from a gif. jpegs can be classified as color or gray-scale (just like photographs), but number of colors just isn't a useful concept for jpeg.) on the other hand, a gif image by definition has already been quantized to 256 or fewer colors. (a gif *does* have a definite number of colors in its palette, and the format doesn't allow more than 256 palette entries.) for purposes of usenet picture distribution, gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization, so recipients don't have to. this is also the *disadvantage* of gif: you're stuck with the sender's quantization. if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display, you have to re-quantize, resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full-color image. furthermore, if the sender didn't use a high-quality color quantization algorithm, you're out of luck. for this reason, jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don't match the sender's display hardware. jpeg's full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user's display hardware. furthermore, you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms (there is a lot of active research in this area), or purchase better display hardware, to get a better view of jpeg images you already have. with a gif, you're stuck forevermore with what was it's also worth mentioning that many gif-viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines. if you view a 256-color gif on a 16-color ega display, for example, you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to. this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations (one to create the gif, one to display it), but often it's also due to sloppiness. jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all, and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed. thus, jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low-color-resolution displays as well as high-resolution ones! finally, an ever-growing number of people have better-than-8-bit display hardware already: 15-bit "hi-color" pc displays, true 24-bit displays on workstations and macintoshes, etc. for these people, gif is already obsolete, as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display. jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively. thus, jpeg is an all-around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine-independent fashion. [8] how does jpeg work? the buzz-words to know are chrominance subsampling, discrete cosine transforms, coefficient quantization, and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding. this article's long enough already, so i'm not going to say more than that here. for technical information, see the comp.compression faq. this is available from the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu, in files /pub/usenet/news.answers/compression-faq/part[1-3]. if you need help in using the news.answers archive, see the top of this article. [9] what about lossless jpeg? there's a great deal of confusion on this subject. the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm, i.e., one that guarantees the final output is bit-for-bit identical to the original input. however, this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular, lossy jpeg algorithm, and it offers much less compression. at present, very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist, and all of them are commercial. saying "-q 100" to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image. what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step. there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step. (with the v4 free jpeg code, you can also say "-sample 1x1" to turn off subsampling. keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file.) even with both quantization and subsampling turned off, the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless, because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations. the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value; it's highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye, but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image. at this minimum-loss setting, regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed 24-bit-per-pixel image. true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression, but it guarantees bit-for-bit accuracy. if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than 6 bits per pixel (per color component), you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard. this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images. jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with 6 or more bits per pixel; furthermore, jpeg is public domain (at least with a huffman back end), while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents. [10] why all the argument about file formats? strictly speaking, jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms; it does *not* refer to a specific image file format. the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations. since we can't actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format, this leaves us with a problem. in the absence of official standards, a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to "do their own thing", and as a result their programs aren't compatible with anybody else's. the closest thing we have to a de-facto standard jpeg format is some work that's been coordinated by people at c-cube microsystems. they have defined two jpeg-based file formats: * jfif (jpeg file interchange format), a "low-end" format that transports pixels and not much else. * tiff/jpeg, aka tiff 6.0, an extension of the aldus tiff format. tiff is a "high-end" format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image, and a lot more besides :-). tiff is a lot more complex than jfif, and may well prove less transportable, because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff. it's not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation. both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg-related products; it's reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards. i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings. jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now; the tiff 6.0 spec has only recently been officially adopted, and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details. even when tiff/jpeg is well defined, the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported "lowest common denominator"; tiff/jpeg files may never be as transportable. a particular case that people may be interested in is apple's quicktime software for the macintosh. quicktime uses a jfif-compatible format wrapped inside the mac-specific pict structure. conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward, and several mac programs are available to do it (see mac portion of section 6a). if you have an editor that handles binary files, you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand; see section 11 for details. another particular case is handmade software's programs (gif2jpg/jpg2gif and image alchemy). these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format. by default, though, they write a proprietary format developed by hsi. this format is not readable by any non-hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings. use the -j switch to get jfif output. (this applies to old versions of these programs; the current releases emit jfif format by default. you still should be careful not to post hsi-format files, unless you want to get flamed by people on non-pc platforms.) [11] how do i recognize which file format i have, and what do i do about it? if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won't read, it's likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg-based format. you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file: 1. a jfif-standard file will start with the characters (hex) ff d8 ff e0, followed by two variable bytes (often hex 00 10), followed by 'jfif'. 2. if you see ff d8 at the start, but not the rest of it, you may have a "raw jpeg" file. this is probably decodable as-is by jfif software --- it's worth a try, anyway. 3. hsi files start with 'hsi1'. you're out of luck unless you have hsi software. portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data, but they won't decompress properly with non-hsi programs. 4. a macintosh pict file, if jpeg-compressed, will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header (scan for 'jfif'). strip off everything before the ff d8 and you should be able to read it. 5. anything else: it's a proprietary format, or not jpeg at all. if you are lucky, the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream. if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream (look for ff d8), try stripping off everything before that. in uuencoded usenet postings, the characteristic jfif pattern is "begin" line m_]c_x ... whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with "begin" line m:'-i ... if you learn to check for the former, you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non-jfif files. [12] what about arithmetic coding? the jpeg spec defines two different "back end" modules for the final output of compressed data: either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed. the choice has no impact on image quality, but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file. on typical images, arithmetic coding produces a file 5 or 10 percent smaller than huffman coding. (all the file-size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding.) unfortunately, the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm, at&t, and mitsubishi. thus *you cannot legally use arithmetic coding* unless you obtain licenses from these companies. (the "fair use" doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm, but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best.) at least in the short run, i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding; the space savings isn't great enough to justify the potential legal hassles. in particular, arithmetic coding *should not* be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet. there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future. stay tuned for further details. [13] does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompression? it would be nice if, having compressed an image with jpeg, you could decompress it, manipulate it (crop off a border, say), and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially. unfortunately this is not the case. in general, recompressing an altered image loses more information, though usually not as much as was lost the first time around. the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it *without changing it* then there is no further loss, i.e., you get an identical jpeg file. even this is not true; at least, not with the current free jpeg software. it's essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error. if you repeatedly compress and decompress, the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first-generation output. (it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change.) one of the things on our to-do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited, but i am not optimistic about it. in any case, the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full-color output of djpeg, at the original quality setting, would introduce no further loss. even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff-error degradation. (if you're wondering why, it's because the pixel-block boundaries move. if you cropped off only multiples of 16 pixels, you might be safe, but that's a mighty limited capability!) the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images, but you don't want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps. use a lossless format (ppm, rle, tiff, etc) while working on the image, then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away. aside from avoiding degradation, you will save a lot of compression/decompression time this way :-). [14] what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg? as stated earlier, you *will* lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg. if you can obtain the original full-color data the gif was made from, it's far better to make a jpeg from that. but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from, here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality. the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg, to make sure you are happy with it, before throwing away the corresponding gif; that will give you a chance to re-do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary. some gifs may be better left as gifs, as explained in section 3; in particular, cartoon-type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don't convert well. you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be *larger* than the gif. (so check the sizes too.) experience to date suggests that large, high-visual-quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg. they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings, and they convert to jpeg with least degradation. don't waste your time converting any gif much under 100 kbytes. also, don't expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full-color originals. to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight-through jpeg files would be (i.e., shoot for 1/2 or 1/3rd the size of the gif file, not 1/4th as suggested in earlier comparisons). many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant-color border around a gif image. while useless, this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files. it is not free in jpeg files, and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ("ghost" edges). do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging. (if you are on an x windows system, xv's manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this.) cjpeg's default q setting of 75 is appropriate for full-color input, but for gif inputs, q settings of 85 to 95 often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation. (if you apply smoothing as suggested below, the higher q setting may not be necessary.) color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually "dithered" to fool your eye into seeing more than the 256 colors that gif can actually store. if you enlarge the image, you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors; at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value. the trouble with dithering is that, to jpeg, it looks like high-spatial-frequency color noise; and jpeg can't compress noise very well. the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image (if you had it). to get around this, you want to "smooth" the gif image before compression. smoothing averages together nearby pixels, thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway, and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble. appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor, thus further reducing the size of the compressed file, while still obtaining a better-looking output image than you'd get without smoothing. with the v4 free jpeg software (or products based on it), a simple smoothing capability is built in. try "-smooth 10" or so when converting gifs. values of 10 to 25 seem to work well for high-quality gifs. heavy-handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors. (if you can see regular fine-scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement, then strong smoothing is definitely called for.) too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image, which you don't want. if you are an image processing wizard, you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program, such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package. however, cjpeg's built-in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol... the upshot of all this is that "cjpeg -quality 85 -smooth 10" is probably a good starting point for converting gifs. but if you really care about the image, you'll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings. for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular, contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg-info@uunet.uu.net. tom lane organizer, independent jpeg group internet: tgl@cs.cmu.edu bitnet: tgl%cs.cmu.edu@carnegie 
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 : or the biggest killer (imo) : 6) one's dreams are (sadly) shattered on the hard rocks of society's : version of reality. without the dream the motivation dies, without : the motivation the effort seems useless. actually there are more possibilities -- one is that with practice the hacker has become so good and powerful in manipulating data streams that s/he goes simply underground... possessing true power perhaps there is no need to impress anyone with it. grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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 appsoft image is available for nextstep. it is a image processing program similar to adobe photoshop. it is reviewed in the april '93 issue of publish! magazine. 
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 on a more cheerful note, perhaps hackerism/hacking isn't completely dead. as someone else said, take the gnu offerings for example - free, redistributable and often better than the commercial stuff. take also the number of papers published every year in all the fields of computer science - the vast majority of these papers detail original work of real, often exceptional merit - and the authors are sharing this knowledge. have fun, 
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 i heard that there is a vesa driver for the xga-2 card available on compuserve. i just got this card, and i am wondering if this driver is available on a ftp site anywhere. my news service has beeen erratic lately so please e-mail me at: walsh@stolaf.edu thanks in advance. 
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 intro to access.bus (re: the access.bus software creator's contest announcement) what is access.bus? access.bus is a new open industry standard for computer peripheral connectivity. access.bus is a serial protocol that uses simple, low-cost i2c technology to link multiple devices to a single pc port. peripheral devices such as keyboards or keypads, locators (mice, trackballs, joysticks), printers, vr gloves, digitizers, sensors, actuators or data transmitters and others can be easily daisy chained to the host pc. applications such as cad/cam, data acquisition, simulation, virtual reality, multiple-player/single pc games, education and many, many more can now take advantage of access.bus, the technology that puts plug and play on every pc. the access.bus offers advantages to end-users and developers of systems and peripherals. multiple devices connect to the host computer with only one port. common communication methods for a number of device types lead to simplified hardware and software development. as an open standard, access.bus enables cross- platform use of the same device. access.bus technological description: access.bus technology is an open specification, enabling anyone to implement it on host systems or in peripheral devices without fee or royalty. access.bus has a bus topology architecture. that is, a single host can accommodate up to 125 peripheral devices. access.bus data rate is 100 kbits/sec. access.bus physical layer access.bus is a serial bus architecture, based on i2c hardware protocol, with one data line and one clock line. standard low-cost i2c microcontrollers handle bit-level handshaking, including automatic arbitration and clock access.bus software protocols the access.bus communication protocol is composed of three levels: i2c protocol, base protocol, and application protocol. i2c protocol: this simple and efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data. i2c provides for cooperative synchronization of bus partners with different clock rates. bus transactions include addressing, framing of bits into bytes, and byte acknowledgment by the base protocol: establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between a host computer and multiple peripherals. the host becomes the access.bus manager. the base protocol defines the format of an access.bus message envelope, which is an i2c bus transaction with additional semantics, including checksum. unique features of the base protocol are auto-addressing and hot plugging. auto-addressing assigns devices with unique bus addresses, without the need for setting jumpers or switches. hot plugging is the ability to attach and detach devices while the system is running, without rebooting. application protocol: this is the highest level of the access.bus protocol which defines message semantics specific to particular types of devices. each type requires a different application protocol. three broad device types have been identified: keyboards, locators, and text devices. access.bus support on the pc all three levels of the access.bus protocol are supported on the pc. an add-on card implements the physical layer and uses the base protocol to communicate with physical access.bus devices. an access.bus manager - tsr under dos and a dll under windows 3.1 - controls the operation of the physical layer and interacts with the access.bus device drivers. drivers are available for multiple access.bus keyboards, locators and printers for dos and windows 3.1. also available are c language source code examples of the interface from applications to the device drivers. to contact abig (the access.bus industry group): postal address: 370 altair way, suite 215, sunnyvale, ca 94086 internet email: abig@netcom.com fax: (408) 991-3773 voice: (408) 991-3517 
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 i need help in creating my 4x4 perspective matrix. i'd like to use this for transforming x, y, z, w in some texture mapping code i got from graphics gems i. i have many books which talk about this, but none of them in simple plain english. if you have graphics gems i, i'm talking about page 678. i'd like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field-of-views and aspect of course. thank's for your help. ca2 = cos(alpha / 2) horizontal sa2 = sin(alpha / 2) cb2 = cos(beta / 2) vertical sb2 = sin(beta 7 2) zf = far clipping value zn = near clipping value matrix: [[ca2/sa2 0 0 0] [0 cb2/sb2 0 0] [0 0 zf/(zf-zn) 1] [0 0 -zn*zf/(zf-zn) 0]] ____ ___ geir atle storhaug / ____/\ (__ geir.a.storhaug@vm.ffi.no \___// \___) phone: +47 63 807658 (office) +47 63 838987 (home) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39498">
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 we are looking for gl source code, which was developed by silicon graphics (sgi). we would like to compile it on sun and hp 9000/700s. if there is anyone already supporting gl on hp and sun, please respond. also please respond if anyone knows where the source code is available. thank you chandra@sbi.com jon@sbi.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39499">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39499" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 : i have a question about svga cards. i have a tseng 4000 svga with 1mb : memory and 3x 6-bit dacs as far as i know. to display a 640x480x32768, : now: can i display 640x480, 15bit/pixel bit-maps on this card? you can. at the least, your _hardware_ is capable of supporting this mode. i do know nothing about your video bios, though... : if so, how? silly (but fool-proof ;) way: install windows with 640x480x32k colors wideo driver and display your pictures under windows... /serge.p 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39500">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39500" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 can anyone around here point me to information regarding stereoscopic images? i believe i saw some at a show room in texas (lone star illusions) and they were amazing. i've now heard that they were created with a simple graphic program. does anyone have any of these images digitized?? i really want to find a out as much as i can.. thanks.. brian@ccnext.ucsf.edu (please reply to this address) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39620">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39620" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 the hacker ethic is alive and well here. i know of what you speak, and my only answer is "screw 'em". you have to do what make you feel right. amen.. i too have learned by example, specifically yours. :) what can i say but keep the faith, there are others who do likewise. .. but dorsai leads the way.. unlike other services that are commercial in nature, dorsai is a community based service. while others charge monthly fees for access, dorsai accepts donations from those who can afford to contribute. while other systems don't respond to user input, dorsai thrives on it. other systems sell hardware for a profit, dorsai donates hardware to community service groups, and to individuals who couldn't afford to dorsai lives due to the "hacker" ethic of charles, jack, skip, cara, ira, mark, david etc etc etc.. sleepless nights and days working on equipment thats been assembled at the embassy, ( and modifying what ever else available to work the first time..) in order to keep the slip line up... heres to you bud... i'm one of the few that decided to stay, and am damn glad that i did..... :) """ | carlos dominguez - sys-admin, owner, kibbitzer -(o o)- | ---------------------------------------------- -----ooo--(_)--ooo----- | root@carlos.uucp or uupsi!jpradley!carlos!carlos ask me about helldiver. | carlos@carlos.jpr.com ( guaranteed address ) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39621">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39621" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 )many high-end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics )sorts of things (change colors, draw points/lines/polygons/fills, etc.). does )such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards/chips, hopefully in the )public domain? this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non-dos )operating system running on a standard pc. check the server code for x11r5. (or "xfree86") daniel "un?x" ortmann (talmidim) ndsu electrical engineering ortmann@plains.nodak.edu shalom fargo, north dakota 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39624">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39624" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 in an attempt to do animation with pov i have created two little programs. one is a c program that will perform a "morph" between any two points given the amount of frames for the morph. and then it will write the points, and the function (translate, rotate, etc.) out to a file. then i have a perl script that will read the list of functions and insert them into a .pov file at a given line. i had hoped this would let me do simple animation. however, i have discovered that simply performing incremental rotations on an object will not spin a stationary object but will actually rotate the object about the axis. now i know an easy way around this would be to first translate the object to the origin perform the rotation and then move it back but i know there must be another way around this. i had thought perhaps it was because i had created objects at the origin and then translated them to a new point and then done the rotation, which could cause this behavior. however this occurs on objects that are not translated at all. any help is ttknock@bbs.santafe.edu 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39625">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39625" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i was skimming through a few gophers and bumped into one at nih with a database that included images in .gif format. while i have not yet worked out the kinks of getting the gopher client to call an x viewer, i figure that the majority of the users here are not in an x11 environment - instead using dos and ms-kermit. with kermit supporting tek4010 emulation for graphics display, does anyone know of a package that would allow a tek to display a .gif image? it would be of more use to the local population to plug something of this sort in as the 'picture' command instead of xview or xloadimage ... andrew. (brennan@hal.hahnemann.edu) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39626">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39626" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i'd like to know if there is any system (cpu + hd array + framebuffer) which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime. hdtv has about 6mb/frame, so recording/playing moving picture will need about 180mb/sec bandwidth. i'm thinking to treat the raw data.. not finding a disk array that can do 180mb/sec. will be difficult. the fastest ones i know about are from maximum strategy (ibm also sells these). they can attach hippi at up to 144 mb/sec. (64 bit). for these kinds of data rates you need more than scsi for connections. their latest model, the raid 5 model gen 4 only does 90 mb/sec. but i think this may be a limitation only of the hippi channel and that customer needs have not exceeded that speed since their older model was faster. they are also not idle (must be working on newer products that might be faster) and are a small company so you might be able to ask about custom interfaces. they still marketed the older, faster model as of a few mongths ago. maximum strategy, inc. 801 buckeye court milpitas, ca 95035-7408 sales@maxstrat.com you might still want to look into compression as it will be very difficult to keep the hippi bus fully working at all times - sustained throughput might come close to maximum burst rate. interesting problem. tell us more if you can? if anyone can advise me what kind of product i should look into, please e-mail me. i will appriciate it. the vendor's e-mail address, price of the products, actual performance data of the products, any info will help me. thanks in advance, kaz sato, tokyo, japan e-mail: kazsato@twics.co.jp dick wilmot editor, independent raid report (510) 938-7425 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39627">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39627" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 please help with mpeg description or sources:decoders & encoders. great thanks in advance. --- maximus 2.01wb * origin: mister postman bbs (22:23/0) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39628">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39628" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 as far as simply mapping your logo or whatever onto a cube or sphere, it's quite easy. just either copy the gif you want mapped into the map directory or add a map path to the directory where it currently is. then go into the materials editor and make a new material with that as the bit map, voila.. | h e \ y b e r |/ e n [ zippy@cyberden.sf.ca.us ] the cyberden - public access waffle usenet system - 415/472-5527 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39630">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39630" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i'm having a slight problem with the pov raytracer. i'm not sure if this is the correct group to post to or not. i create .tga files on a unix machine using pov. then when i download them to display on my pc, they're listed as bad files. but when i create the file on my pc, it displays fine. are unix .tga's incompatible with the pc? an easy solution to this problem would be a unix targa->gif converter. anyone know where i could find one? any help on this subject is appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39631">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39631" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 i was at avalon today and found texture maps in some "tex" and "txc" format, something i've never encountered before. these are obviously not tex or latex files. if you have a clue how i can convert these to something reasonable, please let me know. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39632">
<answer instance="comp.graphics39632" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 can someone who knows what they're talking about add a faq entry on gamma correction? thanks. i get regular questions about gamma correction since i go to great pains to deal with it properly in xli (the image loader program i maintain). here is an explanation i often use to answer these questions. this might be suitable for inclusion in the faq. graeme gill. "a note on gamma correction and images" author: graeme w. gill graeme@labtam.oz.au "what is all this gamma stuff anyway ?" although it would be nice to think that "an image is an image", there are a lot of complications. not only are there a whole bunch of different image formats (gif, jpeg, tiff etc etc), there is a whole lot of other technical stuff that makes dealing with images a bit complicated. gamma is one of those things. if you've ever downloaded images from bbs or the net, you've probably noticed (with most image viewing programs) that some images look ok, some look too dark, and some look too light. "why is this ?" you may ask. this, is gamma correction (or the lack of it). why do we need gamma correction at all ? gamma correction is needed because of the nature of crts (cathode ray tubes - the monitors usually used for viewing images). if you have some sort of real live scene and turn it into a computer image by measuring the amount of light coming from each point of the scene, then you have created a "linear" or un-gamma-corrected image. this is a good thing in many ways because you can manipulate the image as if the values in the image file were light (ie. adding and multiplying will work just like real light in the real world). now if you take the image file and turn each pixel value into a voltage and feed it into a crt, you find that the crt _doesn't_ give you an amount of light proportional to the voltage. the amount of light coming from the phosphor in the screen depends on the the voltage something like this: light_out = voltage ^ crt_gamma so if you just dump your nice linear image out to a crt, the image will look much too dark. to fix this up you have to "gamma correct" the image first. you need to do the opposite of what the crt will do to the image, so that things cancel out, and you get what you want. so you have to do this to your image: gamma_corrected_image = image ^ (1/crt_gamma) for most crts, the crt_gamma is somewhere between 1.0 and 3.0. if that is all it is, why does it seem so complicated ? the problem is that not all display programs do gamma correction. also not all sources of images give you linear images (video cameras or video signals in general). because of this, a lot of images already have some gamma correction done to them, and you are rarely sure how much. if you try and display one of those images with a program that does gamma correction for you, the image gets corrected twice and looks way to light. if you display one of those images with a program that doesn't do gamma correction, then it will look vaguely right, but not perfect, because the gamma correction is not exactly right for you particular crt. whose fault is all this ? it is really three things. one is all those display programs out there that don't do gamma correction properly. another is that most image formats don't specify a standard gamma, or don't have some way or recording what their gamma correction is. the third thing is that not many people understand what gamma correction is all about, and create a lot of images with varying gamma's. at least two file formats do the right thing. the utah graphics toolkit .rle format has a semi-standard way of recording the gamma of an image. the jfif file standard (that uses jpeg compression) specifies that the image to be encoded must have a gamma of 1.0 (ie. a linear image - but not everyone obeys the rules). some image loaders (for instance xli - an x11 image utility) allow you to specify not only the gamma of the monitor you are using, but the individual gamma values of image you are trying to view. other image viewers (eg. xv another x11 image program) and utilities (eg. the pbm toolkit) provide ways of changing the gamma of an image, but you have to figure out the overall gamma correction yourself, allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has, and then the gamma correction you need to suite your crt monitor. [ note that xv 2.21 doesn't provide an easy way of modifying the gamma of an image. you need to adjust the r, g and b curves to the appropriate gamma in the coledit controls. altering the intensity in the hsv controls doesn't do the right thing, as it fails to take account of the effect gamma has on h and s. this tends to give a tint to the image. ] how can i figure out what my viewer does, or what gamma my screen has ? the simplest way to do that is to try loading the file chkgamma.jpg (provided with xli distribution), which is a jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps. the ramps are chosen to look linear to the human eye, one using continuous tones, and the other using dithering. if your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects images, then the two ramps should look symmetrical, and the point at which they look equally bright should be almost exactly half way from the top to the bottom. (to find this point it helps if you move away a little from the screen, and de-focus your eyes a bit.) if your viewer doesn't do gamma correction, then left hand ramp will have a long dark part and a short white part, and the point of equal brightness will be above the center. if your viewer does have a way of setting the right amount of gamma correction for a display, then if the equal brightness point is above center increase the gamma, and decrease it if it is below the center. the value will usually be around 2.2 [with xli for instance, you can adjust the display gamma with the -dispgamma flag, and once you've got it right, you can set the display_gamma environment variable in your .profile] how do i figure out what the gamma of an image is ? this is the most tricky bit. as a general rule it seems that a lot of true color (ie. 24 bit, .ppm .jpg) images have a gamma of 1.0 (linear), although there are many about that have some gamma correction. it seems that the majority of pseudo color images (ie. 8 bit images with color maps - .gif etc.) are gamma corrected to some degree or other. if your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will look good, and gamma corrected images will look too light. if your viewer doesn't do gamma correction, then linear images will look too dark, and gamma corrected images will ok. why linear images are sometimes not such a good thing one of the reason that many high quality formats (such as video) use gamma correction is that it actually makes better use of the storage medium. this is because the human eye has a logarithmic response to light, and gamma correction has a similar compression characteristic. this means images could make better use of 8 bits per color (for instance), if they used gamma correction. the implication though, is that every time you want to do any image processing you should convert the 8 bit image to 12 or so linear bits to retain the same accuracy. since little popular software does this, and none of the popular image formats can agree on a standard gamma correction factor, it is difficult to justify gamma corrected images at the popular level. if some image formats can standardize on a particular gamma, and if image manipulation software takes care to use extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data, then gamma corrected distribution of images would be a good thing. (i am told that the kodak photocd format for instance, has a standard gamma correction factor that enables it to get the highest quality out of the bits used to hold the image). 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics39635" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 is there a comp.graphics faq and if so, where? / jim powlesland / internet: powlesla@acs.ucalgary.ca / academic computing services / voice: (403)220-7937 / university of calgary / message: (403)220-6201 / calgary, alberta canada t2n 1n4 / fax: (403)282-9199 
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<answer instance="comp.graphics39638" senseid="comp.graphics"/>
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 archive-name: jpeg-faq last-modified: 16 may 1993 this faq article discusses jpeg image compression. suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome. new since version of 2 may 1993: * added info on imageviewer for next. this article includes the following sections: [1] what is jpeg? [2] why use jpeg? [3] when should i use jpeg, and when should i stick with gif? [4] how well does jpeg compress images? [5] what are good "quality" settings for jpeg? [6] where can i get jpeg software? [6a] "canned" software, viewers, etc. [6b] source code [7] what's all this hoopla about color quantization? [8] how does jpeg work? [9] what about lossless jpeg? [10] why all the argument about file formats? [11] how do i recognize which file format i have, and what do i do about it? [12] what about arithmetic coding? [13] does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompression? [14] what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg? sections 1-6 are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know; sections 7-14 are advanced info for the curious. this article is posted every 2 weeks. you can always find the latest version in the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu (18.70.0.226). by ftp, fetch /pub/usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq; or if you don't have ftp, send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with body "send usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq". many other faq articles are also stored in this archive. for more instructions on use of the archive, send e-mail to the same address with the words "help" and "index" (no quotes) on separate lines. if you don't get a reply, the server may be misreading your return address; add a line such as "path myname@mysite" to specify your correct e-mail address to reply to. [1] what is jpeg? jpeg (pronounced "jay-peg") is a standardized image compression mechanism. jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group, the original name of the committee that wrote the standard. jpeg is designed for compressing either full-color or gray-scale digital images of "natural", real-world scenes. it does not work so well on non-realistic images, such as cartoons or line jpeg does not handle black-and-white (1-bit-per-pixel) images, nor does it handle motion picture compression. standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees, named jbig and mpeg jpeg is "lossy", meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn't quite identical to what you originally put in. the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye, notably the fact that small color details aren't perceived as well as small details of light-and-dark. thus, jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans. if you plan to machine-analyze your images, the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you, even if they are invisible to the eye. a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters. this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality. you can make *extremely* small files if you don't mind poor quality; this is useful for indexing image archives, making thumbnail views or icons, etc. etc. conversely, if you aren't happy with the output quality at the default compression setting, you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied, and accept lesser compression. [2] why use jpeg? there are two good reasons: to make your image files smaller, and to store 24-bit-per-pixel color data instead of 8-bit-per-pixel data. making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images. being able to compress a 2 mbyte full-color file down to 100 kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time! (if you are comparing gif and jpeg, the size ratio is more like four to one. more details below.) if your viewing software doesn't support jpeg directly, you'll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images. even with a jpeg-capable viewer, it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format (gif, for instance). thus, using jpeg is essentially a time/space tradeoff: you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply. it's worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved, the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file. i'll let you do the arithmetic yourself. the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information: 24 bits/pixel (16 million colors) instead of 8 or less (256 or fewer colors). if you have only 8-bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you. within a couple of years, though, 8-bit gif will look as obsolete as black-and-white macpaint format does today. furthermore, for reasons detailed in section 7, jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware. hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard. [3] when should i use jpeg, and when should i stick with gif? jpeg is *not* going to displace gif entirely; for some types of images, gif is superior in image quality, file size, or both. one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to. as a rule of thumb, jpeg is superior to gif for storing full-color or gray-scale images of "realistic" scenes; that means scanned photographs and similar material. jpeg is superior even if you don't have 24-bit display hardware, and it is a lot superior if you do. (see section 7 for details.) gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors, such as cartoons and line drawings. in particular, large areas of pixels that are all *exactly* the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif. jpeg can't squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects. this sort of image is best kept in gif form. (in particular, single-color borders are quite cheap in gif files, but they should be avoided in jpeg files.) jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges: a row of pure-black pixels adjacent to a row of pure-white pixels, for example. sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting. again, this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs, but it shows up fairly often in gif files: borders, overlaid text, etc. the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that's only a few pixels high. if you have a gif with a lot of small-size overlaid text, don't jpeg it. computer-drawn images (ray-traced scenes, for instance) usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity. the more complex and subtly rendered the image, the more likely that jpeg will do well on it. the same goes for semi-realistic artwork (fantasy drawings and such). plain black-and-white (two level) images should never be converted to jpeg. you need at least about 16 gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray-scale images. it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray-scale images of up to 256 levels, while jpeg is not. if you have an existing library of gif images, you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg. you will lose a little image quality if you do. (section 7, which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif, only applies if both formats start from a full-color original. if you start from a gif, you've already irretrievably lost a great deal of information; jpeg can only make things worse.) however, the disk space savings may justify converting anyway. this is a decision you'll have to make for yourself. if you do convert a gif library to jpeg, see section 14 for hints. be prepared to leave some images in gif format, since some gifs will not convert well. [4] how well does jpeg compress images? pretty darn well. here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy, a 727x525 full-color image of a ship in a harbor. the first three files are for comparison purposes; the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section 6b. file size in bytes comments ship.ppm 1145040 original file in ppm format (no compression; 24 bits or 3 bytes per pixel, plus a few bytes overhead) ship.ppm.z 963829 ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn't accomplish a lot, you'll note. other text-oriented compressors give similar results. ship.gif 240438 converted to gif with ppmquant -fs 256 | ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info: gif saves 8 bits/pixel, not 24. (see sec. 7.) ship.jpg95 155622 cjpeg -q 95 (highest useful quality setting) this is indistinguishable from the 24-bit original, at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs. ship.jpg75 58009 cjpeg -q 75 (default setting) you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original, even with both on-screen at once. ship.jpg50 38406 cjpeg -q 50 this has slight defects; if you know what to look for, you could tell it's been jpeged without seeing the original. still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups. ship.jpg25 25192 cjpeg -q 25 jpeg's characteristic "blockiness" becomes apparent at this setting (djpeg -blocksmooth helps some). still, i've seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this. ship.jpg5o 6587 cjpeg -q 5 -optimize (-optimize cuts table overhead) blocky, but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes. note that this file is tiny: the compression ratio from the original is 173:1 ! in this case jpeg can make a file that's a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality (the -q 75 file is every bit as good as the gif, better if you have a full-color display). this seems to be a typical ratio for real-world scenes. [5] what are good "quality" settings for jpeg? most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs. image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting. there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings. "quality 95" does not mean "keep 95% of the information", as some have claimed. the quality scale is purely arbitrary; it's not a percentage of anything. the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting (smallest file size) that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original. this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another, but here are some rules of thumb. the default quality setting (-q 75) is very often the best choice. this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image. try -q 75 first; if you see defects, then go up. except for experimental purposes, never go above -q 95; saying -q 100 will produce a file two or three times as large as -q 95, but of hardly any better quality. if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with, you might be able to go down to -q 50 without objectionable degradation. on the other hand, you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation. the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg. the default -q 75 is about right for compressing 24-bit images, but -q 85 to 95 is usually better for converting gifs (see section 14 for more info). if you want a very small file (say for preview or indexing purposes) and are prepared to tolerate large defects, a -q setting in the range of 5 to 10 is about right. -q 2 or so may be amusing as "op art". (note: the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section 6b, and to many programs based on it. other jpeg implementations, such as image alchemy, may use a completely different quality scale. some programs don't even provide a numeric scale, just "high"/"medium"/"low"-style choices.) [6] where can i get jpeg software? most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp. if you don't know how to use ftp, see the faq article "how to find sources". (if you don't have direct access to ftp, read about ftpmail servers in the same article.) that article appears regularly in news.answers, or you can get it by sending e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with "send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body. the "anonymous ftp list faq" may also be helpful --- it's usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq in the news.answers archive. note: this list changes constantly. if you have a copy more than a couple months old, get the latest jpeg faq from the news.answers archive. [6a] if you are looking for "canned" software, viewers, etc: the first part of this list is system-specific programs that only run on one kind of system. if you don't see what you want for your machine, check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list. note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet; but some commercial programs are listed too. x windows: xv (shareware, $25) is an excellent viewer for jpeg, gif, and many other image formats. it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations. it's available for ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12), file contrib/xv-3.00.tar.z. version 3.00 is a major upgrade with support for 24-bit displays and many other improvements; however, it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking. if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge, stick with version 2.21, also available from export. note that version 2.21 is not a good choice if you have a 24-bit display (you'll get only 8-bit color), nor for converting 24-bit images to jpeg. but 2.21 works fine for converting gif and other 8-bit images to jpeg. caution: there is a glitch in version 2.21: be sure to check the "save at normal size" checkbox when saving a jpeg file, or the file will be blurry. another good choice for x windows is john cristy's free imagemagick package, also available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/imagemagick.tar.z. this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks. the imagemagick viewer handles 24-bit displays correctly; for colormapped displays, it does better (though slower) color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software. both of the above are large, complex packages. if you just want a simple image viewer, try xloadimage or xli. xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release, 3.03. xloadimage is free and available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/xloadimage-3.03.tar.z. xli is a variant version of xloadimage, said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original. (the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage, at least with respect to jpeg files, because it has the ijg v4 decoder while xloadimage 3.03 is using a hacked-over v1. the next xloadimage release will fix this.) xli is also free and available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/xli.1.14.tar.z. both programs are said to do the right thing with 24-bit displays. ms-dos: this covers plain dos; for windows or os/2 programs, see the next headings. one good choice is eric praetzel's free dvpeg, which views jpeg and gif files. the current version, 2.5, is available by ftp from sunee.uwaterloo.ca (129.97.50.50), file pub/jpeg/viewers/dvpeg25.zip. this is a good basic viewer that works on either 286 or 386/486 machines. the user interface is not flashy, but it's functional. another freeware jpeg/gif/tga viewer is mohammad rezaei's hiview. the current version, 1.2, is available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/hv12.zip. hiview requires a 386 or better cpu and a vcpi-compatible memory manager (qemm386 and 386max work; windows and os/2 do not). hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen. for larger images, it scales the image down to fit on the screen (rather than using panning/scrolling as most viewers do). you may or may not prefer this approach, but there's no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably. note: installation is a bit tricky; read the directions carefully! a shareware alternative is colorview for dos ($30). this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives. its user interface is also much spiffier-looking, although personally i find it harder to use --- more keystrokes, inconsistent behavior. it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview, at least on my hardware. (for images larger than screen size, dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed, and both are faster than hiview.) the current version is 2.1, available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/dcview21.zip. requires a vesa graphics driver; if you don't have one, look in vesadrv2.zip or vesa-tsr.zip from the same directory. (many recent pcs have a built-in vesa driver, so don't try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing.) a second shareware alternative is fullview, which has been kicking around the net for a while, but i don't know any stable archive location for it. the current (rather old) version is inferior to the above viewers anyway. the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel20 archives at that time. the well-known gif viewer compushow (cshow) supports jpeg in its latest revision, 8.60a. however, cshow's jpeg implementation isn't very good: it's slow (about half the speed of the above viewers) and image quality is poor except on hi-color displays. too bad ... it'd have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow. shareware, $25. available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/gif/cshw860a.zip. due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware, any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine. if you can't get *any* of them to work, you'll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif, then view with your favorite gif viewer. (if you have hi-color hardware, don't use gif as the intermediate format; try to find a targa-capable viewer instead. vpic5.0 is reputed to do the right thing with hi-color displays.) the independent jpeg group's free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/jpeg4.zip (or jpeg4386.zip if you have a 386 and extended memory). these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section 6b; they will convert jpeg to and from gif, targa, and ppm formats. handmade software offers free jpeg<=>gif conversion tools, gif2jpg/jpg2gif. these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format; in particular, you can't get 24-bit color output from a jpeg. the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi's proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet-standard jfif format. since hsi-format files are rather widespread on bbses, this is a useful capability. version 2.0 of these tools is free (prior versions were shareware). get it from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/gif2jpg2.zip. note: do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet, since it is not readable on non-pc platforms. handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package, image alchemy. this will translate jpeg files (both jfif and hsi formats) to and from many other image formats. it can also display images. a demo version of image alchemy version 1.6.2 is available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note below), file msdos/graphics/alch162.zip. note about simtel20: the internet's key archive site for pc-related programs is simtel20, full name wsmr-simtel20.army.mil (192.88.110.20). simtel20 runs a non-unix system with weird directory names; where this document refers to directory (eg) "msdos/graphics" at simtel20, that really means "pd1:<msdos.graphics>". if you are not physically on milnet, you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel20. there are several internet sites that maintain copies (mirrors) of the simtel20 archives; most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead. a popular usa mirror site is oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117), which keeps simtel20 files in (eg) "/pub/msdos/graphics". if you have no ftp capability, you can retrieve files from simtel20 by e-mail; see informational postings in comp.archives.msdos.announce to find out how. if you are outside the usa, consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel20 mirror is. microsoft windows: there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images. (windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware, due to windows' system overhead. note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window.) the newest entry is winecj, which is free and extremely fast. version 1.0 is available from ftp.rahul.net, file /pub/bryanw/pc/jpeg/wecj.zip. requires windows 3.1 and 256-or-more-colors mode. this is a no-frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes; and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers. but it's so fast you'll use it anyway, at least for previewing... jview is freeware, fairly fast, has good on-line help, and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format; but it can't create new jpeg files, and it doesn't view gifs. jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers (such as brightness adjustment), but it's an excellent basic viewer. the current version, 0.9, is available from ftp.cica.indiana.edu (129.79.20.84), file pub/pc/win3/desktop/jview090.zip. (mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites, including wuarchive.wustl.edu.) winjpeg (shareware, $20) displays jpeg,gif,targa,tiff, and bmp image files; it can write all of these formats too, so it can be used as a converter. it has some other nifty features including color-balance adjustment and slideshow. the current version is 2.1, available from simtel20 and mirror sites (see note above), file msdos/windows3/winjp210.zip. (this is a slow 286-compatible version; if you register, you'll get the 386-only version, which is roughly 25% faster.) colorview is another shareware entry ($30). this was an early and promising contender, but it has not been updated in some time, and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg. if you want to try it anyway, the current version is 0.97, available from ftp.cica.indiana.edu, file pub/pc/win3/desktop/cview097.zip. (i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos.) dvpeg (see dos heading) also works under windows, but only in full-screen mode, not in a window. os/2: the following files are available from hobbes.nmsu.edu (128.123.35.151). note: check /pub/uploads for more recent versions --- the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/jpegv4.zip 32-bit version of free ijg conversion programs, version 4. /pub/os2/all/graphics/jpeg4-16.zip 16-bit version of same, for os/2 1.x. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/imgarc12.zip image archiver 1.02: image conversion/viewing with pm graphical interface. strong on conversion functions, viewing is a bit weaker. shareware, $15. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmjpeg11.zip pmjpeg 1.1: os/2 2.x port of winjpeg, a popular viewer for windows (see description in windows section). shareware, $20. /pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmview85.zip pmview 0.85: jpeg/gif/bmp/targa/pcx viewer. gif viewing very fast, jpeg viewing roughly the same speed as the above two programs. has image manipulation & slideshow functions. shareware, $20. macintosh: most mac jpeg programs rely on apple's jpeg implementation, which is part of the quicktime system extension; so you need to have quicktime installed. to use quicktime, you need a 68020 or better cpu and you need to be running system 6.0.7 or later. (if you're running system 6, you must also install the 32-bit quickdraw extension; this is built-in on system 7.) you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/quicktime.hqx. (as of 11/92, this file contains quicktime 1.5, which is better than qt 1.0 in several ways. with respect to jpeg, it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file. however, some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt 1.5.) mac users should keep in mind that quicktime's jpeg format, pict/jpeg, is not the same as the usenet-standard jfif jpeg format. (see section 10 for details.) if you post images on usenet, make sure they are in jfif format. most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format. the first choice is probably jpegview, a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format, pict/jpeg format, or gif format. it also can convert between the two jpeg formats. the current version, 2.0, is a big improvement over prior versions. get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu (36.44.0.6), file /info-mac/app/jpeg-view-20.hqx. requires system 7 and quicktime. on 8-bit displays, jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers. jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers; in fact, it's the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over 640x480 pixels on a typical 4mb mac. given a large image, jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen, rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers. (you can zoom in on any desired portion, though.) some people like this behavior, some don't. overall, jpegview's user interface is very well thought out. gifconverter, a shareware ($40) image viewer/converter, supports jfif and pict/jpeg, as well as gif and several other image formats. the latest version is 2.3.2. get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/art/gif/gif-converter-232.hqx. requires system 6.0.5 or later. gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg/gif viewer, but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities, so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images. also, the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images *without* quicktime, so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime. (but it's faster with quicktime.) note: if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg, try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert, then viewing the gif version. jpeg convert, a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities, is available from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/app/jpeg-convert-10.hqx. this will run on any mac, but it only does file conversion, not viewing. you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer. previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v0.6, a jpeg<=>gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code. if you are using this program, you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert. apple's free program pictpixie can view images in jfif, quicktime jpeg, and gif format, and can convert between these formats. you can get pictpixie from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/qt.1.0.stuff/pictpixie.hqx. requires quicktime. pictpixie was intended as a developer's tool, and it's really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime. some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory, it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a 24-bit display, and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface. worse, pictpixie is an unsupported program, meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix. (there is an old version of pictpixie, called pictcompressor, floating around the net. if you have this you should trash it, as it's even buggier. also, the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned-up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor. note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net.) storm technology's picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer/converter. this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways, but it will run without system 7 or quicktime, so you may be forced to use it on older systems. (it does need 32-bit quickdraw, so really old machines can't use it.) you can get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/app/picture-decompress-201.hqx. you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to 'jpeg' to allow picture decompress to open it. if your machine is too old to run 32-bit quickdraw (a mac plus for instance), gifconverter is your only choice for single-program jpeg viewing. if you don't want to pay for gifconverter, use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer. more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg, although not all can deal with the usenet-standard jfif format. adobe photoshop, version 2.0.1 or later, can read and write jfif-format jpeg files (use the jpeg plug-in from the acquire menu). you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to 'jpeg' to allow photoshop to recognize it. amiga: (most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga.physik.unizh.ch (130.60.80.80). there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one. in the usa, a good choice is wuarchive.wustl.edu; look under /mirrors/amiga.physik.unizh.ch/...) hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer/converter, as well as being a general image manipulation tool. it's cheap (shareware, $20) and can read several formats besides jpeg. the current version is 2.0.8. a demo version is available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/gfx/edit/hamlab208d.lha. the demo version will crop images larger than 512x512, but it is otherwise fully functional. rend24 (shareware, $30) is an image renderer that can display jpeg, ilbm, and gif images. the program can be used to create animations, even capturing frames on-the-fly from rendering packages like lightwave. the current version is 1.05, available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/os30/gfx/rend105.lha. (note: although this directory is supposedly for amigados 3.0 programs, the program will also run under amigados 1.3, 2.04 or 2.1.) viewtek is a free jpeg/ilbm/gif/anim viewer. the current version is 1.04, available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file amiga/gfx/show/viewtek104.lha. if you're willing to spend real money, there are several commercial packages that support jpeg. two are written by thomas krehbiel, the author of rend24 and viewtek. these are cinemorph, a standalone image morphing package, and imagefx, an impressive 24-bit image capture, conversion, editing, painting, effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph. both are distributed by great valley products. art department professional (adpro), from asdg inc, is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas. imagemaster, from black belt systems, is another well-regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support. the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites) in directory amiga/gfx/conv, file amigajpegv4.lha. these programs convert jpeg to/from ppm,gif,targa formats. the amiga world is heavily infested with quick-and-dirty jpeg programs, many based on an ancient beta-test version of the free ijg jpeg software (thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk-of-the-month, without so much as notifying the authors). among these are "augjpeg", "newamyjpeg", "vjpeg", and probably others i have not even heard of. in my opinion, anything older than ijg version 3 (march 1992) is not worth the disk space it's stored on; if you have such a program, trash it and get something newer. atari st: the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st, tt, etc, from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/graphics/jpeg4bin.zoo. these programs convert jpeg to/from ppm, gif, targa formats. for monochrome st monitors, try mgif, which manages to achieve four-level grayscale effect by flickering. version 4.1 reads jpeg files. available from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/graphics/mgif41b.zoo. i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg-capable viewers for ataris, but surely there must be some by now? pointers appreciated. acorn archimedes: !changefsi, supplied with risc os 3 version 3.10, can convert from and view jpeg jfif format. provision is also made to convert images to jpeg, although this must be done from the cli rather than by double-clicking. recent versions (since 7.11) of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg, along with about 30 other image formats. while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards, the current version is only available by registering with the author, john kortink, nutterbrink 31, 7544 wj, enschede, the netherlands. price 35 dutch guilders (about $22 or 10 pounds). there's also a commercial product called !jpeg which provides jpeg read/write functionality and direct jpeg viewing, as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options. this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs. contact: dt software, freepost, cambridge, uk. tel: 0223 841099. next: imageviewer is a pd utility that displays images and can do some format conversions. the current version reads jpeg but does not write it. imageviewer is available from the standard next archives at sonata.cc.purdue.edu and cs.orst.edu, somewhere in /pub/next (both are currently being re-organized, so it's hard to point to specific sub-directories). note that there is an older version floating around that does not support jpeg. portable software for almost any system: if none of the above fits your situation, you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in 6b. you'll also need a viewer program. if your display is 8 bits or less, any gif viewer will do fine; if you have a display with more color capability, try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm 24-bit image files. there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings, with more popping up every day. i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow. in that case, purchase a hardware-assisted product. ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format; many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else's files. [6b] if you are looking for source code to work with: free, portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group, which i lead. a package containing our source code, documentation, and some small test files is available from several places. the "official" archive site for this source code is ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9 or 192.48.96.9). look under directory /graphics/jpeg; the current release is jpegsrc.v4.tar.z. (this is a compressed tar file; don't forget to retrieve in binary mode.) you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp. if you are on a pc and don't know how to cope with .tar.z format, you may prefer zip format, which you can find at simtel20 and mirror sites (see note above), file msdos/graphics/jpegsrc4.zip. this file will also be available on compuserve, in the graphsupport forum (go pics), library 15, as jpsrc4.zip. if you have no ftp access, you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp.sources.misc archive; version 4 appeared as issues 55-72 of volume 34. (if you don't know how to retrieve comp.sources.misc postings, see the faq article "how to find sources", referred to at the top of section 6.) the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg "jfif" format and image files in gif, pbmplus ppm/pgm, utah rle, and truevision targa file formats. the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs, such as image viewers. the package is highly portable; we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays. we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use. companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg-related products. we do not ask a royalty, although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature (see the readme file in the distribution for details). we hope to make this software industrial-quality --- although, as with anything that's free, we offer no warranty and accept no liability. the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization; if you'd like to contribute to improving our software, you are welcome to join. [7] what's all this hoopla about color quantization? most people don't have full-color (24 bit per pixel) display hardware. typical display hardware stores 8 or fewer bits per pixel, so it can display 256 or fewer distinct colors at a time. to display a full-color image, the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors. this process is called "color quantization". (this is something of a misnomer, "color selection" would be a better term. we're stuck with the standard usage though.) clearly, color quantization is a lossy process. it turns out that for most images, the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg (except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings). since jpeg is a full-color format, converting a color jpeg image for display on 8-bit-or-less hardware requires color quantization. this is true for *all* color jpegs: even if you feed a 256-or-less-color gif into jpeg, what comes out of the decompressor is *not* 256 colors, but thousands of colors. this happens because jpeg's lossiness affects each pixel a little differently, so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors. each original color gets "smeared" into a group of nearby colors. therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display, regardless of the image source. the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray-scale output. (incidentally, because of this effect it's nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image. even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values, different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences. i occasionally see posted images described as "256-color jpeg". this tells me that the poster (a) hasn't read this faq and (b) probably converted the jpeg from a gif. jpegs can be classified as color or gray-scale (just like photographs), but number of colors just isn't a useful concept for jpeg.) on the other hand, a gif image by definition has already been quantized to 256 or fewer colors. (a gif *does* have a definite number of colors in its palette, and the format doesn't allow more than 256 palette entries.) for purposes of usenet picture distribution, gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization, so recipients don't have to. this is also the *disadvantage* of gif: you're stuck with the sender's quantization. if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display, you have to re-quantize, resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full-color image. furthermore, if the sender didn't use a high-quality color quantization algorithm, you're out of luck. for this reason, jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don't match the sender's display hardware. jpeg's full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user's display hardware. furthermore, you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms (there is a lot of active research in this area), or purchase better display hardware, to get a better view of jpeg images you already have. with a gif, you're stuck forevermore with what was it's also worth mentioning that many gif-viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines. if you view a 256-color gif on a 16-color ega display, for example, you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to. this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations (one to create the gif, one to display it), but often it's also due to sloppiness. jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all, and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed. thus, jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low-color-resolution displays as well as high-resolution ones! finally, an ever-growing number of people have better-than-8-bit display hardware already: 15-bit "hi-color" pc displays, true 24-bit displays on workstations and macintoshes, etc. for these people, gif is already obsolete, as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display. jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively. thus, jpeg is an all-around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine-independent fashion. [8] how does jpeg work? the buzz-words to know are chrominance subsampling, discrete cosine transforms, coefficient quantization, and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding. this article's long enough already, so i'm not going to say more than that here. for technical information, see the comp.compression faq. this is available from the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu, in files /pub/usenet/news.answers/compression-faq/part[1-3]. if you need help in using the news.answers archive, see the top of this article. [9] what about lossless jpeg? there's a great deal of confusion on this subject. the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm, i.e., one that guarantees the final output is bit-for-bit identical to the original input. however, this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular, lossy jpeg algorithm, and it offers much less compression. at present, very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist, and all of them are commercial. saying "-q 100" to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image. what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step. there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step. (with the v4 free jpeg code, you can also say "-sample 1x1" to turn off subsampling. keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file.) even with both quantization and subsampling turned off, the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless, because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations. the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value; it's highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye, but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image. at this minimum-loss setting, regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed 24-bit-per-pixel image. true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression, but it guarantees bit-for-bit accuracy. if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than 6 bits per pixel (per color component), you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard. this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images. jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with 6 or more bits per pixel; furthermore, jpeg is public domain (at least with a huffman back end), while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents. [10] why all the argument about file formats? strictly speaking, jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms; it does *not* refer to a specific image file format. the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations. since we can't actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format, this leaves us with a problem. in the absence of official standards, a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to "do their own thing", and as a result their programs aren't compatible with anybody else's. the closest thing we have to a de-facto standard jpeg format is some work that's been coordinated by people at c-cube microsystems. they have defined two jpeg-based file formats: * jfif (jpeg file interchange format), a "low-end" format that transports pixels and not much else. * tiff/jpeg, aka tiff 6.0, an extension of the aldus tiff format. tiff is a "high-end" format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image, and a lot more besides :-). tiff is a lot more complex than jfif, and may well prove less transportable, because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff. it's not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation. both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg-related products; it's reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards. i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings. jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now; the tiff 6.0 spec has only recently been officially adopted, and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details. even when tiff/jpeg is well defined, the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported "lowest common denominator"; tiff/jpeg files may never be as transportable. a particular case that people may be interested in is apple's quicktime software for the macintosh. quicktime uses a jfif-compatible format wrapped inside the mac-specific pict structure. conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward, and several mac programs are available to do it (see mac portion of section 6a). if you have an editor that handles binary files, you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand; see section 11 for details. another particular case is handmade software's programs (gif2jpg/jpg2gif and image alchemy). these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format. by default, though, they write a proprietary format developed by hsi. this format is not readable by any non-hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings. use the -j switch to get jfif output. (this applies to old versions of these programs; the current releases emit jfif format by default. you still should be careful not to post hsi-format files, unless you want to get flamed by people on non-pc platforms.) [11] how do i recognize which file format i have, and what do i do about it? if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won't read, it's likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg-based format. you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file: 1. a jfif-standard file will start with the characters (hex) ff d8 ff e0, followed by two variable bytes (often hex 00 10), followed by 'jfif'. 2. if you see ff d8 at the start, but not the rest of it, you may have a "raw jpeg" file. this is probably decodable as-is by jfif software --- it's worth a try, anyway. 3. hsi files start with 'hsi1'. you're out of luck unless you have hsi software. portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data, but they won't decompress properly with non-hsi programs. 4. a macintosh pict file, if jpeg-compressed, will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header (scan for 'jfif'). strip off everything before the ff d8 and you should be able to read it. 5. anything else: it's a proprietary format, or not jpeg at all. if you are lucky, the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream. if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream (look for ff d8), try stripping off everything before that. in uuencoded usenet postings, the characteristic jfif pattern is "begin" line m_]c_x ... whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with "begin" line m:'-i ... if you learn to check for the former, you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non-jfif files. [12] what about arithmetic coding? the jpeg spec defines two different "back end" modules for the final output of compressed data: either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed. the choice has no impact on image quality, but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file. on typical images, arithmetic coding produces a file 5 or 10 percent smaller than huffman coding. (all the file-size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding.) unfortunately, the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm, at&t, and mitsubishi. thus *you cannot legally use arithmetic coding* unless you obtain licenses from these companies. (the "fair use" doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm, but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best.) at least in the short run, i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding; the space savings isn't great enough to justify the potential legal hassles. in particular, arithmetic coding *should not* be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet. there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future. stay tuned for further details. [13] does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompression? it would be nice if, having compressed an image with jpeg, you could decompress it, manipulate it (crop off a border, say), and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially. unfortunately this is not the case. in general, recompressing an altered image loses more information, though usually not as much as was lost the first time around. the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it *without changing it* then there is no further loss, i.e., you get an identical jpeg file. even this is not true; at least, not with the current free jpeg software. it's essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error. if you repeatedly compress and decompress, the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first-generation output. (it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change.) one of the things on our to-do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited, but i am not optimistic about it. in any case, the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full-color output of djpeg, at the original quality setting, would introduce no further loss. even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff-error degradation. (if you're wondering why, it's because the pixel-block boundaries move. if you cropped off only multiples of 16 pixels, you might be safe, but that's a mighty limited capability!) the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images, but you don't want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps. use a lossless format (ppm, rle, tiff, etc) while working on the image, then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away. aside from avoiding degradation, you will save a lot of compression/decompression time this way :-). [14] what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg? as stated earlier, you *will* lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg. if you can obtain the original full-color data the gif was made from, it's far better to make a jpeg from that. but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from, here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality. the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg, to make sure you are happy with it, before throwing away the corresponding gif; that will give you a chance to re-do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary. some gifs may be better left as gifs, as explained in section 3; in particular, cartoon-type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don't convert well. you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be *larger* than the gif. (so check the sizes too.) experience to date suggests that large, high-visual-quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg. they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings, and they convert to jpeg with least degradation. don't waste your time converting any gif much under 100 kbytes. also, don't expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full-color originals. to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight-through jpeg files would be (i.e., shoot for 1/2 or 1/3rd the size of the gif file, not 1/4th as suggested in earlier comparisons). many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant-color border around a gif image. while useless, this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files. it is not free in jpeg files, and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ("ghost" edges). do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging. (if you are on an x windows system, xv's manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this.) cjpeg's default q setting of 75 is appropriate for full-color input, but for gif inputs, q settings of 85 to 95 often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation. (if you apply smoothing as suggested below, the higher q setting may not be necessary.) color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually "dithered" to fool your eye into seeing more than the 256 colors that gif can actually store. if you enlarge the image, you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors; at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value. the trouble with dithering is that, to jpeg, it looks like high-spatial-frequency color noise; and jpeg can't compress noise very well. the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image (if you had it). to get around this, you want to "smooth" the gif image before compression. smoothing averages together nearby pixels, thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway, and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble. appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor, thus further reducing the size of the compressed file, while still obtaining a better-looking output image than you'd get without smoothing. with the v4 free jpeg software (or products based on it), a simple smoothing capability is built in. try "-smooth 10" or so when converting gifs. values of 10 to 25 seem to work well for high-quality gifs. heavy-handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors. (if you can see regular fine-scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement, then strong smoothing is definitely called for.) too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image, which you don't want. if you are an image processing wizard, you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program, such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package. however, cjpeg's built-in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol... the upshot of all this is that "cjpeg -quality 85 -smooth 10" is probably a good starting point for converting gifs. but if you really care about the image, you'll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings. for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular, contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg-info@uunet.uu.net. tom lane organizer, independent jpeg group internet: tgl@cs.cmu.edu bitnet: tgl%cs.cmu.edu@carnegie 
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 my three-d library does a lot of projections ( duh ), but currently it is projecting an object's vertices on a _per triangle basis_. this is grossly inefficient for 99% of the objects displayed ( which can be optimized by doing projections one time, once for each vertex ), but objects whose z-extents intersect the hither plane can't benefit from this because new vertices must be created during z-clipping. anyone have any better ideas? yes. here's what you should do. keep the vertices in an array, and have the polygons (triangles are okay, but n-sided polygons are slightly more efficient) store the indices into the array of the vertices that comprise them. you set a flag for each vertex when you transform it, so you don't have to transform any vertex more than once; you also do backface elimination before processing the polygon, so that vertices that belong only to bacfacing polys don't have to be transformed at all. whenever you transform a vertex, check if it's on the far side of the hither plane; if it is, you can project it right away and store the result. then do your z clip; any vertices that get produced will have to have their projection done at that stage. bernie roehl university of waterloo dept of electrical and computer engineering mail: broehl@sunee.uwaterloo.ca voice: (519) 885-1211 x 2607 [work] 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39641">
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 hi. i'm looking for a 3d shark for use in a ray tracing rountine i'm doing. i'll be using vivid or pov, but it can be in any format. are there any ftp sites with 3d objects or does anyone have a good 3d shark? thanks alot! .... new in 1993 ~ ~~ :::::.~~~ ~ ~ sea world of ohio chad cipiti ~ ~~ ::shark:. ~ ~ cipiti@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu ~~ .:encounter:. ~~ "make contact." af774@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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 i'm currently looking for a viewer for computer graphics metafile (cgm) pictures. please inform me about a shareware or freeware version. jorna@kub.nl 
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 if it takes making it an alt group, then why not? i've been following this thread for, what has it been, two months now? the alt.* hierarchie is created for 2 purposes: 1. for groups which do not fit under the comp.* or other 'official' 2. for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt.gulf.war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities, sites are free to decide not to carry (some of) the alt groups. therefore, it is (i think) desirable to try to create comp.graphics. {raytrace, rendering or whatever} and not an alt-group 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39648">
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 in 3d studio, is there any way to create refraction, diffraction etc ? i want to simulate such things as glass lenses, bottles etc. there might be an ipas routine that does that,but i can'r be sure. another way to do it is to render the scene without the glass object and save the image. then assign that image to your glass object as a reflection. it will take a lot of adjusting for position and size of the reflection, but that's the only thing i can think of. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39656">
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 i've got this animation file with a .gl extension. what is this? are there anu ms-dos or os/2 programs which will run this file? thanks. the gl file is an archive containing individual frames or pieces of frames (usually stored as .pic or .clp files), fonts, and a .txt file that tells the grasp animation system how to display it. gl stands for grasp library. there is probably a detailed discussion of this subject in the alt.binaries.pictures faq. there are freely distributable viewers for gl files, and they are usually named grasprt?.exe (replace the ? with a version digit or letter). most gl files contain frames that are hardware-specific to particular modes of the cga, ega, or vga adapters on pcs. i think that there are some copies of grasprt available by anonymous ftp (i know that i got one there a long time ago). good luck == jack stephenson main e-mail: j_stephenson@isuv1.interlan.com == || racal-datacom alternate e-mail: stephens@souv1.interlan.com || || p.o. box 407044 || == ft. lauderdale, fl 33340 usa phone: (+1) 305-846-6137 == 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39657">
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 many high-end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics sorts of things (change colors, draw points/lines/polygons/fills, etc.). does such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards/chips, hopefully in the public domain? this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non-dos operating system running on a standard pc. i'm also interested in info both public domain and commercial graphics library package to do pc vga graphics. i'm currently working on a realtime application running on a pcc with a non-dos kernel that needs to do some simple graphics. i'm not sure if reentrancy of the graphics library is going to be an issue or not. i suspect i'll implement the display controller as a server process that handles graphics requests, queued on a mailbox, one at a time. if this provides sufficiently frequent display updates then i believe that i can restrict all graphics operations to be performed by the server and thus constrain access to the library to a this single process and avoid the need for a reentrant graphics library. being fairly new to the realtime systems world i may be overlooking something, what do you think? bob fitzsimmons fitz@cse.ogi.edu (503)297-3165 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39660">
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 i'm looking for code that will generate a minimum-volume oriented bounding box for an arbitrary polyhedron. anyone know of such code? why? i'm converting objects from one modelling system into another, and the destination system is object oriented. so i want to represent each object in its own coordinate system, that of its bounding box, with the objects then translated and rotated appropriately, this being the representation used in the destination john nagle 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39661">
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 if some kind person has access to a mathematical package such as mathematica, maple,... i would like to ask you for the solution to the following problem. i sometimes have algebra problems like this where i would like a simplified symbolic solution. is there a ftp-able package out there that can handle such i would like to solve the following ray - bezier patch intersection for the scalar constant t in: p + t * v = q(u,w) (origin point in 3d) (dir vector 3d) in terms of only: p v p and various scalars (origin) , (dir 3d) , (i,j) 0 <= i,j <= 3 where: q(u,w) = [u] [n] [b] [m] [w] n n-1 n-2 n-3 [u] = [ u u u u .... u 1 ] ( 0.0 <= u <= 1.0 ) 3 2 = [ u u u 1 ] ( in my particular case ) n n-1 n-2 n-3 t [w] = [ w w w w .... w 1 ] ( 0.0 <= w <= 1.0 ) 3 2 t = [ w w w 1 ] ( in my particular case ) [ n ] = [ m ] = | -1 3 -3 1 | ( for my particular case ) | 3 -6 3 0 | | -3 3 0 0 | | 1 0 0 0 | [ b ] = | p p p p | (control points in 3d space) | (0,0) (0,1) (0,2) (0,3) | | p p p p | | (1,0) (1,1) (1,2) (1,3) | | p p p p | | (2,0) (2,1) (2,2) (2,3) | | p p p p | | (3,0) (3,1) (3,2) (3,3) | chuck@elwood.reston.ingr.com 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39664">
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 if it takes making it an alt group, then why not? i've been following this thread for, what has it been, two months now? the alt.* hierarchie is created for 2 purposes: 1. for groups which do not fit under the comp.* or other 'official' 2. for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt.gulf.war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities, sites are free to decide not to carry (some of) the alt groups. therefore, it is (i think) desirable to try to create comp.graphics. {raytrace, rendering or whatever} and not an alt-group very good point. is there someone out there that is working on this? i'd offer my time to help manage/do it all myself but yaw'll are not going to hear from me over the summer. i'm not trying to be pushy, and there is being progress made (re: pov mailing list). ^^^^^^^^^^^^advertisement^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^advertisement^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ don't miss this one time only sale sale sale sale! h.e.d.tech is now selling thier now model jed002 series geek-bot! this is a limited time offer, at a 300% reduction from our usual price of $8000 dollars... buy one now! don't wait, sale ends sunday! ^^^^^^^^^^^^advertisement^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^adveritisement^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39666">
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 we are looking for a graphics package (preferably complete with source code) that will run on our unix operating system (a sequent running dynix 3.2). this graphics package must support a wide variety of character based graphics devices (pc's running a terminal emulator, primarily). at this point, x11 graphics is not an option. this graphics program should, if possible, support these sorts of graphics operations (minimum requirements): 1) complicated axes (log, linear, etc.) with fairly precise axis labels (multi-line labels, etc.) major and minor tickmarks on axes, etc. 2) it would be nice if some limited amount of color plotting were available, if the output device supported it. we have a copy of gnuplot and are currently using it, but gnuplot has some limitations. we are looking for something more robust than gnuplot. at this point, i'm looking for information about packages that might solve our problems. if you have any information, please contact me at the above email address. if the product you know about is a commercial software package, please send a phone number or email address so that i can contact them about pricing, etc. annette koontz battelle pacific northwest richland, wa 99352 usa 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39669">
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 the subject says it all. i bought adobe type manager and find it completely useless. i ftped some atm fonts and couldn't install them. what's the use? are you supposed to be able to convert atm fonts to truetype? if there's anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it useful, enlighten me! 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39670">
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 i'd like to know if there is any system (cpu + hd array + framebuffer) which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime. hdtv has about 6mb/frame, so recording/playing moving picture will need about 180mb/sec bandwidth. i'm thinking to treat the raw data.. not actually, for digital hdtv systems that's far higher bandwidth than you need, unless there's some reason you must work in fully-uncompressed hdtv. also, my calculations is that each frame should be well under 6mb, even using 24 bits/pixel (which is more bits than you actually need - 15 or 18 should be enough for a moving picture). 1600x1100x16bits is 3.5mb (i'm guessing at hdtv resolution - it may be a bit wider than 1600, i'm fairly sure of the 1100 number for most of the digital proposals). i hope you have a very fast memory system as well - 180mb/s while displaying will require a heavily interleaved vram system. unless you have a _very_ compelling reason, i'd advise trying to use at least somewhat compressed data. you don't have to go to full compression to get to a level where the data io requirements are much cheaper and easier to deal with. gnu emacs is a lisp operating system disguised as a word processor. - doug mohney, in comp.arch randell jesup, jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, commodore engineering. jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com or rutgers!cbmvax!jesup bix: rjesup disclaimer: nothing i say is anything other than my personal opinion. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39671">
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 i have posted to this newsgroup once before and recieved a moderately helpful response on a couple of issues. this i appreciated very much . i would however like to know why it is that ther is simply no information out there on some subjects for the relativly novice graphics programmer. the subjects are 1) how do you access the extra video memory on a video board. i know somwhere there aresome standard video bios calls that allow you to dothis. i have 1meg of memory on my board and according to all the books and info i have read i am only (at maximum) using 256k of it. there is a way to do this in standard vga cause i have seen vidoe paging (written in assembly, which i don't know) written into apps hat use mode 13h. to get any speed at all you have to do this. how do i do it? 2) the vesa standard. what gives here. i have read most of what the net has to offer on vesa and as far as coding for vesa goes most of the advice is cryptic at best. where do i get public domain info that will tell me in "mostly plain" english how the vesa calls work. my biggest gripe is about number 1. i have bought graphics books, i have asked graphics professors, i have hunted the net through both gopher, and archie, i ahave asked apps programmers and it is like there is some lock on this information. graphics programming books tell alot of programmiing algorithm information, but they always fall short of telling you how to really control the video bios. what are all the calls folks, i know there are people out there that know how to doall tis stuff. where are you, and why haven't you written a book yet? please help thanks in advance stephen palm palm@snycanva.bitnet (please send all personal replies to the above address, thanks) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39674">
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 i am trying to find out anything i can about available documentation for iges and e00(arc/info) formats. if you know anything about these formats (or just one) please send me a note. i don't read this group, so please send responses to: mike@prc.utexas.edu thank you mike kline 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39676">
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 i have a lots of .cgm files produced by ncar graph utility v3.00. they are all color graphs, and i want to print them out. the printers i own are postscript, and hp 7475a. anyone who have experiences in this please tell me, e-mail me will be very nice. or if someone knows how to convert those .cgm files into .gif pcx, .bmp .... , it will helps a lot. 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39677">
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 i have a group of gif images that each contain 6 small images in the same place on all the images. i need a program to crop out the small images to a new gif file. all the programs i can find make me use the mouse or keyboard to define the cropping coordinates. is there a program out there for a pc that can take the crop coordinates on the command line? reply to: max@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (david max) 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39736">
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 i am applying for an nsf grant to buy equipment for a laboratory... the lab will need to support c (or pascal) with graphics tools... we can run the lab either on pc's or dec equipment --- if you are familiar with appropriate products (software/hardware) and precise prices. please contact shai@lcc.stonehill.edu we are interested in any available acadmic discounts.... also, if anyone runs a lab using similar software/hardware, i would be very interested in hearing your opinions of its success shai simonson stonehill college n easton ma 02357 
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<instance id="comp.graphics39738">
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 o.k., sorry to post a question which seems to crop up quite regularly in this group however i have yet to get a specific and usefull (in my context) answer to where i can get hold of 3d data for a head. what i am looking for : simple polyon description of head / face which can be easily converted for, or used with, pov (raytracer). (i.e. <1500 polygons) well, i am placing a file at my ftp today that contains several polygonal descriptions of a head, face, skull, vase, etc. the format of the files is a list of vertices, normals, and triangles. there are various resolutions and the name of the data file includes the number of polygons, eg. phred.1.3k.vbl contains 1300 polygons. in order to get the data via ftp do the following: 1) ftp taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil 2) login as anonymous, guest as the password 3) cd pub/dabro 4) binary 5) get cyber.tar.z once you get the data onto your workstation: 1) uncompress data.tar.z 2) tar xvof data.tar if you have any questions, please let me know. george dabro dabro@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil 
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 i was wondering, is the "kermit" package (the actual package, not a yes! in the usual ftp sites. yek chong 
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 doublespace, although i do not trust it for my hard disks, sounds great for floppies. the thouoght of having to mount the disk is anoying but something i can deal with. the problem arises when under windows. is there a way to mount and unmount while under windows or is this part of the upgrades soon to be available from other vendors? .chris i can't see why you would not trust it because it is safer than any previous compression programs. it integrates into the kernal and makes it nearly impossible to delete. 
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 does anyone know how to configure a dos app in progman so that only one instance of it can be running at a time? i'd really appreciate some help on how to do this. i would prefer responses through email if it's not a big deal, or at least through email _as well as_ posting. thank you! james e. lee jelee@hamlet.ucdavis.edu "i swear--by my life and my love of it--that i will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." -john galt "atlas shrugged" 
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 i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card. the driver i am currently using is version 1.21 and doesn't support more than 256 colors in 1024x768 mode even you have 2mb memory. the bbs support for actix is unbelievable! they are still using 2400bps modem! it will take you hours to download the drivers, it hurts when you are calling long distance. is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows? btw, anyone using this card, and how do you like it so far? good but where are these drivers?? daniel y.h. wong uoft:(416)978-1659 anybody at actix listening? upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese?! kym a. burgemeister department of mechanical engineering university of adelaide south australia ph. +61 8 228 4713 5005 facs. +61 8 224 0464 e-mail to : kburg@aelmg.adelaide.edu.au 
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 using a windows 3.1 printer driver, i would like to "print to a file", with output as a postscript file. later, i would like to take this postscript file to a machine with an attached hewlett packard 4m laser printer, and print the document at 600 dots per inch resolution. i would like to use this method to print from wordperfect for windows, and from an image processing program that can output images in postscript. here's the problem: the windows postscript printer driver (pscript.drv) doesn't allow me to specify 600 dpi. in fact, the setup dialog for this driver does have a pull-down menu for "resolution", but the only choice given in the menu is 300! not a really useful menu. any ideas? david arnstein arnstein@iis.sun.com international imaging systems milpitas, california 
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 what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like? i mean, how is the data stored: width, height, no. of colours, bitmap data? i couldn't find anything in ths user manual, is there any other reference material which would give me this information? well, this is *only* a guess: if it goes by the "true" meaning of "bit map", then it holds (x,y,c) where x pixel number in th ex-direction, y: pixel-number in the y-dir, c: colour. pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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 is this newsgroup archived anywhere beyond the normal expiration dates, say for the last 6 months or more? paladin@world.std.com 
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 at the micro$oft display at fose, there were a few computers running windows, and win. apps for the blind, i think. didn't pay much attention to it, but it was there. it seems that a particular program designed for blind people is more important than trying to interface windows with a way for blind people to use it. if someone made a voice recognition/multimedia (sound) oriented program, it would probably been more effective. i don't know what the original purpose of interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question kirk membry "our age is the age of industry" rutgers!viamar!kmembry - alexander rodchenko 
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 newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc where can i obtain truetype hiragana and katakana (japanese phonetic character) (note: i can receive mail at the address in the header, but i cannot send.) --kw 8-) 
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 why is win 3.1 sometimes so finicky? i have a new dell 486dx2/66mhz 8 megs ram. windows was working just great. i had a bus mouse and mother board problem. dell replaced the mouse, gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard. just prior to this problem windows would ]only load up every other time. i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up. this was very consistent every other time. now with the new motherboard and all, it still does the same thing. the computer is less than one month old. at first it worked fine! i can get into windows each time now with the win/s command. this forces standard mode. things seem to run slower. i mainly use windows apps, but in standard mode there is no virtual mem..... plus it is slower. i re-loaded windows, it still does the same thing. should i first delete everything in all windows dir's? i did not because i have so much added in sub dir's etc. really puzzling why enhanced mode would not load each time but consistently every other time. standard mode each time...... any thoughts or comments ??? c-ya..... /\/\artin this communication is sent by /\/\artin university of arizona tucson ak333@cleveland.freenet.edu mlinsenb@ccit.arizona.edu mlinsenb@arizvms death has been dead for about 2,000 years ****** follow the king of kings 
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 hi there, could someone please suggest one of the better _shareware_ replacements for win3.1's program manager and file manager? and which ftp site are they located at? thanks in advance for e-mail response. yuan@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu :) 
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 i've been running dos 6 for about a month. i was generally impressed with the improvements: the multiple boot configurations were great, the new commands were nice, and doublespace worked fine (twice as slow for large data transfers, twice as fast for small with smartdrv). until now. this morning at 4 am while i was working on my research paper, i had to reboot a hung dos program (that did no disk i/o) from within windows 3.1. when my machine finished rebooting, i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted. i cannot afford problems like this. i'm returning to dos 5. p.s. i've also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should 
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 i just recently bought a nec 6fg. in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates, i'd like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors (as opposed to the usual d-sub connector)? i do not know of any "vga" type cards that have bnc outputs but, extron sells a vga to bnc cable set that works good with my 5fg. if you are trying to optimize the display with a good video card try contacting #9, @ 1-800-get-nine. i use and like the level 9 card. thanks for any information, --mike mills e-mail: sam@ms.uky.edu, {rutgers, uunet}!ukma!sam --uk math sciences dept. mike@ukpr.uky.edu --(606) 257-1429 (work) 263-0721 (home) & mark marlow & & marlow@world.std.com & 
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 we are using pkzip v2.04 and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these. which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest? is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip/pkunzip commands? russ sharp russ@deakin.edu.au ph (052)27 1141 fax (052)27 2015 \ / deakin university, school of engineering & technology, geelong, australia \/ 
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 sometimes when i boot up windows 3.1, after the windows logo comes up it han gs, i am using dos 6 and doublespace, and a 5 meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive. but when i press the reset button on the computer, windows boots up fine... why is this??? is it dos 6? matthew gillard, | blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering, | in circles, for they shall be la trobe university, | known as wheels. 
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 : what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like? i mean, how is : the data stored: width, height, no. of colours, bitmap data? i couldn't : find anything in ths user manual, is there any other reference material : which would give me this information? : thanks, : andrew try the windows multimedia development kit, it has most of the file formats defined 
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 i'm looking for a driver for an ibm 3852-2 color ink jet printer. any pointers are welcome. thanks in advance huebner@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de 
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 hello again, about a week and one-half ago i posted a query looking for people feelings on the inkjet family of printers. specifically, a comparison between the canon bj200 (bubblejet) and the hewlett-packard deskjet 500. many people asked me to post the summary/account of all the postings and e-mail i received. below is my original query and the responses i received. i have not deleted any part of the responses, only the headers and signatures, so you can extract what you find necessary. some people asked me for an unbiased account; however, the very nature of the question suggests favoritism and biased comments, you must extract the information you believe unbiased and a fair representation of each printer. there are a wide range of comments, each has its own value. there was no clear winner, some like the bj200 (especially its price/performance ratio), others preferred the durability and reliability of the deskjet (the original inkjet with proven drivers and a solid background). two new inkjet printers have drawn some attention, a new printer to be introduced by hewlett-packard later this year (around summertime), and an addition to the epson product line (their first inkjet). you will find that after the initial purchase, the costs of re-filling or replacing the ink cartridges are about the same (this largely depends on where you purchase the re-fills or replacements -- so shop around first since this aspect will most likely dominate the cost of your printer). no one mentioned approx. how many sheets each ink cartridge will print, but i suspect they are roughly equal at about 1000 - 1500 sheets (laser printers will do 4000-5000 sheets per toner cartridge). well, that's a brief research summary of my personal research. enjoy! hello fellow 'netters. i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase, the canon bj200 (bubblejet) vs. the hp deskjet 500. i thought, rather than trust the salesperson, i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential. and, i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson. now, i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the 360 dpi of the canon bubblejet vs. the hewlett-packard deskjet 500 (300 dpi). which is faster? is there a noticeable print quality difference, particularly in graphics? which will handle large documents better (75 pages or more) -- any personal experience on either will be appreciated here? which works better under windows 3.1 (any driver problems, etc)? cost of memory, font packages, toner cartridges, etc? basically, your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable, both good and bad. well i bought the bj 200 about a month ago at the start of their $50 rebate program on that printer (it ends 5/31), and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of $325 couldn't be beat anywhere i looked, and i think it's a hot printer. just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode. i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with 4pt type done on my bj 200 with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj 200. printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj 200 which is amazing considering that the hp has 2.5m ram installed. i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data (as i used print manager in windows). i showed the output to several people at work and one manager bought one immediately for his office, and two other engineers placed their orders too. if you need cdw's phone number, it's 800-598-4239. delivery to ny was two days. good luck! craig witkowski, ceng51@maccvm.corp.mot.com motorola communications & electronics inc. glen rock, nj i own a deskjet 500. performance isn't spectacular under windows using truetype fonts but neither is the canon from what i have seen. quality for the hp is very much dependent on paper quality - on 'standard' photo-copy paper the characters have slightly 'frayed' edges but on better quality 'distinction' type paper things look better. for most applications i find copy paper fine - still better than dot-matrix. comes with a windows driver, which seems to by-pass print manager, has a few 'intelli-fonts'which are hp scaleable fonts - probably faster than truetype but haven't really tried them out. can get ram & font cartridges but unless the speed of truetype is a problem i wouldn't bother. the ram cartridges can't be used as buffer - soft fonts only. for graphics, i.e. bmp images etc the hp can be put into a dither mode via the hp supplied win driver. there a number of dither options such as 'scatter', 'pattern' etc. the manual gives recommendations depending on the type of image being printed. text is not so good in this mode. problem arises when you have a document which contains both graphic and text. the range of tones for graphic images isn't brilliant but i think that is more of a limitation with inkjet printers in general. from what i have seen the canon is similar in most respects. however, a printer definitely worth looking at is the new inkjet from epson. this printer is faster, cheaper, and capable of producing laser-like quality on normal copier paper. can't remember the model #, lx - something i think? i purchased my hp days before the epson was released here :-{. the introductory price on the epson was the same as the hp here in new zealand. about a month ago, i got a canon bj200. i absolutely love it. it is incredibly fast, except for printing from pspice (i don't know if you ever do stuff with that or not.) most of the stuff i print is either from microsoft word for windows or just plain text. the only problems i've had are printing headers/footers (the printer freaked out), and printing on cheap paper (lots of streaks). normal copy paper works great with it, you can only tell it's not laser-printed by holding it, oh, less than twelve inches from your face. (that is, if you're nearsighted, like me! :) ) the printer comes with its own driver for windows 3.1!! i have no other complaints. the printer also can act just like some epson or another for those archaic software packages that haven't written a driver for it yet. the teeny-weeny footprint is a real plus, too--and, if you purchase it between now and may 31, you get a $50 rebate from canon!! i bought mine from a store called compusa, and the price now is $340. i have a friend who has the hp you are looking at. it also prints very well, and everyone has drivers for it, but it is very slow! hope i helped! (360dpi sure looks great!) heather stehman in message <1993apr18.041741.6051@csd-newshost.stanford.edu> hello fellow 'netters. i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase, the canon bj200 (bubblejet) vs. the hp deskjet 500. i thought, rather than trust the salesperson, i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential. and, i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson. (various questions deleted) well i bought the bj 200 about a month ago at the start of their $50 rebate program on that printer (it ends 5/31), and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of $325 couldn't be beat anywhere i looked, and i think it's a hot printer. just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode. i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with 4pt type done on my bj 200 with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj 200. printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj 200 which is amazing considering that the hp has 2.5m ram installed. i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data (as i used print manager in windows). i guess i have some experience with both: i have a bj-300 at work and a deskjet 500 at home. i prefer the deskjet. the printing speed and quality are similar (i tested both with text and graphics before buying the deskjet for home). the feature that sets the deskjet apart is the driver support in so many applications. the bj ends up emulating the epson lq or ibm proprinter to get it to work with many non-windows apps and this will be the case for a long time. the design is superior if you just want to use cut paper, the deskjet is quieter, and the ink cartridges are quite a bit cheaper due to the number of deskjets out there in comparision to the bjs. just my $0.02 worth.. mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto p.o. box 174 luling, la 70070 internet address: dmmatt@bigez.monsanto.com yes, there is the landscape mode printing problem, but it does not present a problem in windows as the windows printer driver handles the translation. i actually thought of some other points after i posted the note. the deskjet has an unprintable area of approximately .5inch around the paper the bubblejet does not. you are right about the graphics resolutions, i tested the printers with the applications i had access to: wordperfect, harvard graphics, wingif, paintshop pro, and paintbrush and could not tell a difference. in fact one of the hp deskjet windows drivers gives you significant control over the contrast and density of the printer hence controlling the amount of ink you put down. the bubblejet did not. i had no imaging software to test the printers with and so had no comparision there. finally, i wanted sheet feeding. in that configuration the bubblejet cost approximately $100 more than the deskjet. i went through a pretty thorough evaluation and chose the deskjet when i spent my own money. btw, i am replacing the bj-300 with a deskjet 500 at work this month anyway. mike mattix ag group of monsanto luling, la i spent some time comparing the two. we ended up getting the bubblejet bj-200 versus the hp. our reasons were: 1) the hp seemed to have worse banding than the canon 2) 360dpi versus 300 - we felt we could see the difference 3) price - canon has a $50 rebate program going on at the moment. the bj-200 was our choice over the bj-10ex - we could have 100 pages in the bj-200 feeder. the bj-10ex holds only 30 pages, i think. as you can see, up to 100 pages on the bj-200. we haven't done anything big with the bj, but its performance seems reasonable under windows. i know that the microsoft bbs has a newer windows driver than comes with the printer, but i don't know how it compares (also the driver included with the printer is canon's whereas i don't know where the microsoft bbs one comes from - microsoft?) hope this helps. thomas v. frauenhofer, wa2yyw tvf@cci.com, ...!uunet!uupsi!cci632!tvf, tvf@cs.rit.edu mandlebratwurst: the meal that eats itself! altough i'm sometimes also a salesperson (if i'm not suppost to study :-)) i would recommend to buy the bj200. the printing quality is a bit better, but you you've got much more possiblities. don't forget the hp engine is at least 2 years on the marked, the canon engine (witch is also used in other "new" bubblejet printers like e.g. the epson ones) is quite recently available.. now, i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the 360 dpi of the canon bubblejet vs. the hewlett-packard deskjet 500 (300 dpi). which is faster? is there a noticeable print quality difference, particularly in graphics? which will handle large documents better (75 i've seen during a short demonstration (from someone who tryed to sell me canon printers) 2 times the same picture, one printed with the bj200, one with the canon, the other with the hp, and.. there was a difference in printing- quality,.. the canon was a bit better.. when we decided we needed quiet printers in our hospital we looked to inkjet printers. they have near laser quality, speed, and they are quiet. we use both hp deskjets and the canon bj-200s. i prefer the paper handling qualities of the deskjets but i feel the canons have superior print quality. the ideal would be a canon with a sheet feeder, however i did end up buying a deskjet for home use (got too good a deal). anyway, we are using canons in high volume areas and they are holding up very well. out of 15 deskjets and 4 bj-200s i have only had one problem with a deskjet and that was taken care of very quickly by hp. whenever i buy anything i look at what the "experts" say, pick out the top few and then buy on whatever criteria are the most apt. i've been unusually flush lately (no begging letter please) and so i've done this a few times including - about four months ago - with inkjet printers. i can't remember much about the process except that i read about three reviews of inkjets and that the 500 was always at or near the top. i bought the 500c because of the added dimension of colour (i intend to build a multi- media machine at some stage and have just bought a colour scanner towards that). although i haven's used the colour thing in earnest yet i tried it out on a couple of windows bitmaps and i was pleased with the i note that even though you can now get the 550c (the one with both colour and mono with no need to change the cartridge), the 500c and 500 are still readily available (at least in the uk). the following are my views/experience: 1. i don't know anything about the canon except that i came away from reviews (and replies to a posting similar to yours) with the idea that the hp offered the best performance/price ratio. 2. i believe hp are the originals in the field - not always the ideal place to be but the market's still young so one assumes they have the expertise. 3. the 500c is worth the extra. operation in mono is perfectly acceptable and i get good crisp reproduction of fonts from 4. i used to work for monotype when they still manufactured typesetters (before their american owners closed them down!) and i can tell you that in terms of definition 300 dpi is pretty poor anyway so 360 dpi is just a bit less poor... 5. the hp comes with a reasonable set of drivers. 6. if you buy it invest in the additional ram pack - it's pretty slow with it, god knows what it's like without! i actually work in germany and my pc is home in the uk so it's not in daily use. i would say that apart from my not reading the manual properly and having a really dumb problem at the start it's easy peasy to operate. hope this is of use. just bought the bj-200. i thought the price couldn't be beat ($329, with $50 rebate thru 5/31) and so far it is comparable, even superior, to the deskjet in print quality. speed: per page rate seems to be faster (i don't have figures). i don't print long docs, though. quality: i think the graphics quality is excellent. print quality is excellent as well, unless you use small fonts and hold it up close; you can see a lot more "jaggies" than on a laserjet. the 360 dpi is offset by a little less accuracy in holding the page/print head in place, i would imagine. large docs: not room in the standard model for a whole lotta pages ... manual says up to 100, though. haven't tried it. drivers: no problems under win3.1 yet. winword doesn't want to print the envelopes the same way the canon does, though. know nothing of add-on costs. daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract the deskjet is slow. this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned. i have no idea how the bubblejet compares. the interface between win3.1 and the printer is just dandy, i've not had any problems with it. i just bought a bj-200 printer a couple of days ago. i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet 500 and knew that the hp wasn't for me. the bj-200 is pretty fast and really prints with good quality. i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical ( depending on the kind of paper). i don't have problems with the ink not being dry, it seems to dry very fast. probably within a second. since canon is giving a $50 rebate until the end of may, it is really a good buy. sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications wow, it's funny you should ask this. i'm a little behind in news reading so i know this may be late. i just purchased the canon bubblejet last night. i was really worried that i wouldn't like it but the print quality, and noise level is fantastic! i printed quite a few documents with lots of graphics and it printed damn near laser quality. you can't tell it's not laser unless you get 2 inches from the page. no problems with drivers. the printer came with the driver diskette which is good because i was beginning to panic when i couldn't findi it under windows or wordperfect. it works well under both. i have yet to install word for windows so don't know how it works with them. i had a deskjet 500 at work last year. it was a good printer as well ut i felt it was awfully slow. and much noisier than the bubblejet. i won't say the bubblejet is much better, but i really do like it more. just my $0.02 worth. -=- brett robert kayman ---- kayman@cs.stanford.edu -or- cpa@cs.stanford.edu "in theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they are not." "you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised?!?!" 
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 why is win 3.1 sometimes so finicky? i have a new dell 486dx2/66mhz 8 megs ram. windows was working just great. i had a bus mouse and mother board problem. dell replaced the mouse, gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard. just prior to this problem windows would ]only load up every other time. i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up. this was very consistent every other time. <much deleted> any thoughts or comments sounds like a memory conflict problem, which can cause truly weird symptoms like these. call dell tech support (or better, post to them on cserve if you have an account) and get the memory range(s) used by video ram on your machine. the block windows from using those ranges with an emmexclude= statement in the 386enh section of system.ini. you probably should include a statement excluding the same range from emm386 or whatever memory manager you use in config.sys. dell "installs" windows on the machines they ship, but the installation doesn't consist of much more than copying the files to a hard disk. you still have to do the work. and the fact that you have the problem in enhanced mode but not standard strongly suggests a high memory conflict. 
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 i use a pc with a screen access program (ibm screen reader) and a speech synthesizer. (accent sa). i would like to find out about screen access programs for the windows platform. i heard that were a couple of them out now under beta testing, i would like to find out addresses/prices etc. --raman t. v. raman <raman@cs.cornell.edu>tel: (607)255-9202 r 272-3649 office: 4116 upson hall, department of computer science, cornell university ithaca ny 14853-6201 res: 226 bryant avenue ithaca ny 14850 
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 i'm looking for any information regarding text search engines... specifically, i'd prefer source or binaries which will run in a ms-windows and/or unix environment scanning either flat files or common db structures... references to pd, shareware, or commercial implementations welcome... please reply via email -- i'll summarize if desired. thanx ! -- doc 
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 title says it all: i'm in need of a truetype oem character set font - ie one that contains the line drawing and other characters in the pc character set similar to those you get when running a text mode application. if anyone could point me at such a thing, i'd be grateful. [the only oem fonts included with windows are not truetype.] colin manning 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10043">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10043" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i>from: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu (costas malamas) we are using pkzip v2.04 and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these. is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip/pkunzip commands? russ sharp russ@deakin.edu.au ph (052)27 1141 fax (052)27 2015 \ / there is wunarchive, the replacement of wunzip. it only extracts, but it ssupports pkzip 2.04. it does not require pkz/unzip in order to work, and ccosts only $10 to register. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10045">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10045" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a question about the autocheck-boxes in windows. is it a possibility to let the boxes have several different colors at the same time? frode kvam :-) _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ (c) name: frode kvam univ: university of trondheim, dept of informatics e-mail: frode@ifi.unit.no snail-mail: lademoens kirkealle 8 7042 trondheim voice: + 47 7 50 45 06 *** beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers. *** 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10047">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10047" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 anyone know of a good software package that will allow us to keep track of who is printing what and when? is there any way to get print manager to keep a log? is there a print manager replacement that will do this? how about a package that will only allow access to the system for people in a password file? i looked at chastity, but it will let you log in without a password, and doesn't keep tabs of who got on and when. any help will be greatly appreciated. ### mark juric a.i. programs ### ### mjuric@ai.uga.edu university of georgia ### ### athens, georgia 30602 ### 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10049">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10049" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard 8.3 format. yep, it's called os2! yep, you can use any type of unix, or maybe vms, or buy a mac or something... if you want longer filenames for your documents, i heard of a wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files. those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open/save dialogs though... maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than i do? if i rember correctly, lotus notes gives u this possiblity, among other things... tom@softsys.se 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10050">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10050" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi everybody out there, i just got the third beta release disk (march 93) of windowsnt and still am not able to boot up that system. the final step achieved is the display of io-error 0x0069. but, since this is the beta release of the sdk for nt and not of nt, microsoft does not include a manual on the os itself, explaining what this error means of what i can do to get rid of. my configuration is: mainboard hauppauge 4860-25, rev. a7 (a 486 with socket for i860) 28megs of memory (512k*36,1m*36,2m*36) ami eisa scsi controller (15series), latest bios, 16mb cache st41200n hard disk syquest 555 removable disk toshiba 3301 cd rom drive proaudio spectrum plus 16 longshine ethernet card lcs8634 (ne2000 comp.) et4000 graphics card, 1meg (colorimage5) the system is running fine under dos and windows 3.1 etc, but trying to do the setup for nt, - automatic setup does not recognize controller (aha1542-compat.) when adding manually, nt complains not finging any cd-rom drive - the manual setup (winnt) does not copy everything from cd to hd, does not recognize controller, but takes it manually. setup continues until it tries to boot. then it starts loading several stuff from disk (seems to fing the hd), but messing up with that damned io-error 69. i took away all io cards not essential, but that did not make any anybody got any ideas? help would be greatly appreciated. michael linder mlinder@tonet1.physik.tu-berlin.de institute of optics tech. univ. berlin, germany 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10051">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10051" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am new to windows and i wanted to know how to setup the terminal program. i have a modem in com4, but when it try to configure it inside windows i get the messare "unsupported com ..." can anyone help me? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10053">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10053" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : >i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse.com 8.00 (was using 8.20 : >i think, but switched to 8.00 to see if it was any better). vertical motion : >is nice and smooth, but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can't click : >on something because my mouse jumps around. i can be moving the mouse to : >the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly : >for a bit, then jump to the right, then move smoothly for a bit then jump : >again (maybe this time to the left about .5 inch!). this is crazy! i have : >never had so much trouble with a mouse before. anyone have any solutions? here is another hint: i have a really jumping mouse (ps2 type), and finally the mouse stops jump changing himem.sys (yes, himem!), is you use: device=himem.sys /m:x x can be 1,2,...,8 (of course my computer don't appear on the list for these parameter) and maybe, your mouse can stop jump... (but your problem looks more like a dirty mouse ;)... hope it help (to anybody!) alejandro cifuentes h. acifuent@isluga.puc.cl 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10056">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10056" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i recently set windows 3.1 up on my 486dx-33 vlb system, and i didn't notice until last night that i don't have the 386 icon in my control panel. i don't remember windows setup asking me about 386 enhanced mode (whether i wanted it or not). now i've got a program that i just bought (aldus freehand 3.1) that is telling me that i should be running windows in enhanced mode (looks like i'm running in standard mode). how can switch to enhanced mode without the little icon thingie? are there some issues involved with vesa lb systems which cause windows to not want to give you enhanced mode? thanks for any help!! -david victor 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10058">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10058" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 we are using pkzip v2.04 and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these. which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest? well, i got winzip from cica (don't know which version, but i think it's the latest, as this is not long ago), and i was initially imressed. but here's the low-down: winzip is a *great* progra, *as long as you only unzip*. it lets you vew files, unzip only selected files, and even puts the files in a /checkout directory, and creates a "checkout" .grp and group if you want to check the program out. it even prompts for deletion of these on exit, if you didn;t like the program. *however* (big however over here). i have problems zipping. i don't konw specifics on this, or ammount of consistency, but sometimes when i "zip" a few files, or add a file to a .zip, dos will violate something or other, and i'll be asked (in a kind, micro$oft kind of way) to quit all applications, quit windows, and restart my computer. i don't know (as i said) how consistent this is, as i jdont' zip much (and when i do, now i just go to dos and use it from there, or just use the "run" cmd) but i *do* know it's happened when i added files to an existing .zip file, *and* when i created a new .zip file, using selected files only. i don't know if it's happened when i zip an entire dir. still, it has a rather nice interface, and quite useful "unzip"ing functions. if the above is fixed, i'll be the first to register the new ver. (as for now, a good old, "run-->unzip *.zip" will work. (ps> if a new ver *is* out that fixes these, please let me know). pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10059">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10059" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 dos 5 never used the area $e000 - $efff, as well as some others. if you have any cards that use this are (such as a lan card), you might get this use the x=$e000-$efff in your emm386.exe line in config.sys. if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions. speaking of that..... my comp has "emmexclude=$e000-$efff" or something of that nature in the system.ini file. or some system file for *windows*. i was just wondering if having that line in a *windows* startup file is better, as it will give some more memory on dos apps., but disable it when you run windows? (actually, i *do* think that that line is also in the system.1 file) pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10060">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10060" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hello: do you know about a mouse odometer for windows? i have seen one for the mac. it is quite fun. it records the distance, in miles, that the travels during use. thanks in advance: steven ruegsegger "if you are a conservative when you are young, smr2@po.cwru.edu you have no heart. if you are a liberal when you are old, you have no brain." 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10062">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10062" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 what is the procedure used to 'specially' compress the bmp file? i would love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen. thanks * origin: chris.doelle.@f3333.n106.z1.fidonet.org (1:106/3333.26) i don't know the specifics of the compression algorithm, but i've used the shareware program, paintshop, to convert between the two. you can download it from ftp.cica.indiana.edu, but i don't know what the file is called or what directory it is in (you can start by looking in pub/pc/win3 or try scanning the index files). to convert a .bmp file to a .rle file, you just load the .bmp file and do a "save as..." select "windows bitmap" and "compressed" (or is it "rle"?) whatever it is, it's fairly intuitive... sorry i don't have all the details, but i'm currently on an ibm3151 dumb terminal and can't do much researching...good luck! brad smalling :: jr.ee :: ga tech :: atlanta, ga :: gt2617c@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10065">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10065" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 please help if you can. whenever i try to run windows useing the 16 million color mode with the drivers supplyed with my diamond stelth 24x it will lock up requireing a full system reset to break out. the drivers that i have for windows are v.1.00 for windows 3.1 (which is the version of windows i am useing) my setup 386dx40 128kcach 4 megs of ram 14" svga touch monitor non-interlaced ami bios any and all help would be apreciated, the card seems to work fine in other modes, i usually run windows in 800x600 mode and probs at all, so i am hopeing it is a driver and not a card problem. paul gubbins cpt@tiamat.umd.umich.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10066">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10066" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 this may be an faq (if so, please direct me to the known answer) but i am getting frustrated and looking for help. i am running win 3.1 with ndw 2.2 on a 486sx with 8 meg of memory and a 6 meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them. when i load windows i start with about 83% resources available but many of the application programs i run regularly (wpwin 5.2, vb 2.0, winqvt 2.8, lotus organizer, etc.) seem to not return all their resources when i exit them. after a day or two of work i often find myself down under 50% of available resources even when i have no applications other than my shell running. i am aware this is a known problem; what i am looking for are some suggestions of what i might do to mitigate it. 1. what software is the culprit? win 3.1, ndw, my applications? are some modes of win 3.1 (standard, real, enhanced) better than others at plugging this leak? 2. are their system.ini switches i can set to help plug this leak? 3. do people know of patches or third party software that help with this? seems like increasing or better managing system resources is a great market for a third party memory company like qemm. 4. if i run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside? (i was hoping that ndw 2.2 would have plugged this, but it seems no different than 2.0 in how it deals with memory and resources.) 5. when i am writing vb code are there things i can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources? 6. any other suggestions that i don't know enough to ask for thanks for your help. as this is a common problem and i have seen only a little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email. daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10068">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10068" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have windows 3.1 and i was wondering what is necessary to change the default system font to something else. i have just obtained msc/c++ 7.0 with sdk, so i'd really like to get my feet wet with doing my first windows pro- gram to change the system font. tx., william f. maton 646379@acadvm1.uottawa.ca (the mercedes-benz convertible) u646379@csi.uottawa.ca (the unicycle) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10069">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10069" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 ok, i just got a new 486/66 16 mb, with a ati ultra pro and i can't get into windows. it says that i need more memory available, but i have 15mb ogf extended mem & 512k of conventionnal. i have disabled my memory aperture because it didn't find any "free" memory, but it still gave me a message that the memory aperture will conflict with system memory. i think that's why it want to get in windows. any help will greatly be appriciated. please reply by mail, because this site is a week late on news 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10071">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10071" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi, folks, i have a question: how can i generate a pcx file using word for windows (2.0) ? i know i can select a postscript printer driver to get a ps file, but how can i generate a pcx file ? is there a printer capture utility for windows that ever exists ? or a utility to transfer ps format to pcx format, or tiff format? please reply by e-mail, i will give a summary. thanks. shiyu zhang syzhang@ccit.arizona.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10075">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10075" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hello brad! monday april 26 1993 17:24, brad smalling wrote to (crosspost 1) all: bs> copy /b win.cnf+vgalogo.lgo+vgalogo.rle win.com *** unecessary ... bs> (i grabbed this from _supercharging windows_ by judd robbins--great book) bs> this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup might do it, too much trouble :) .bmp *will* convert to .rle. i know for a fact that paintshop (shareware from cica; /desktop, i think, filename psvvv.zip (i think, where vvv is the ver. number. if that's not true, let me know and i"ll this, however, will write your .rle file with a .bmp extension, so you have to rename it. your file has to be less than 64 k ( at least that's what the faq says, but mine wont work for more than about 30...maybe they mend 32k, i don't know). *** agreed mixali... your file has to fit vga size (480 * 860, or whatever standard vga size is.) if you use a non-vga screen (e.g. cga, ega, svga, there is also a way to do it, but i thing instead of vgalogo.lgo you use another file, *** not entirely true..> also....your .bmp has to be 16 colours or less. true *** finally, remember to save your current win.com before, and put your new win.com in the windows directory. also, don't start windows from a unecessary ... path of least resistance (tm) :) : get wingif 1.4 from cica (ftp.cica.indiana.edu pub/pc/win3/(desktop?) ) it will save to native .rle format unlike psp (an otherwise fine, fine prog) make a file using anything that has to be less than 30k, as michael said, and less than 16 colors... import it to wingif as gif, pcx or bmp and save it in you windows/system subdir as vgalogo.rle (not .lgo). exit win, and run setup in the windows subdir. reselect your _current_ config. run win. voila' (minor correction: the .rle file has to be <30k. that means ~15k gif ?) hope it helps... (and please, please someone put this in the group's faq) costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- oit doesn't pay me enough to share its opinions... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10076">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10076" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 we are using pkzip v2.04 and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these. is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip/pkunzip commands? russ sharp russ@deakin.edu.au ph (052)27 1141 fax (052)27 2015 \ / winzip 4.0 (ftp.cica.indiana.edu:pub/pc/win3/(util?) ). it is a shell (it does call dos ), but a very, very good one. it will also do arc, arj and lzh. it fully supports pkzip 2.04 . try using it... it might be a shell --very unobtrusive--, but that also means you dont need to update it with every every-other-letter-of-the-alphabet version of pkzip... :) hope it helps.... costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- oit doesn't pay me enough to share its opinions... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10079">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10079" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi! i need a codabar font for win. tt or other. thanks! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10080">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10080" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 we are using pkzip v2.04 and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these. which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest? is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip/pkunzip commands? yes russ, there is. quinzip is a windows version but i don't think it handles all the functions available in the dos version. last i looked quinzip could be found on the monash university (australia) mirror site of cica, so i'd assume it's still on cica itself and other mirrors. have a look in the /util(s?) directory for a file called qzip21.zip. o | paul blackman pwb@science.canberra.edu.au o | water research centre, pwb@aerg.canberra.edu.au o _ | faculty of applied science -- (") o | university of canberra, australia. \_|_-- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "spend a little love and get high" _/ \_ | - lenny kravitz 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10082">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10082" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i know this is probably a faq, but... i installed the s/w for my ati graphics card, and it bashed my windows logo files. when i start windows now, it has the 3.0 logo instead of the 3.1 logo. i thought the files that controlled this were \windows\system\vgalogo.rle \windows\system\vgalogo.lgo i restored these files, but it didn't change the logo. anyone know what the correct files are? i believe you have the correct files. i think what you'll have to do is go back into setup and choose change video adapter or whatever it is called. then the trick is choose the same adaptor you currently have. what setup does is it actually changes the file win.com whenever you go into it and change the video hardware selection. it incorporates the contents of vgalogo.rle into win.com when you do this. this trick can also be used to change the startup logo into whatever you want it to be. [.sig alert] dbstrutt@acs.ucalgary.ca [end .sig alert] 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10083">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10083" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 has anyone observed this? if i copy a large, say 800k+ file (a large pkzip file for instance) to my floppy drive (3.5") under ms windows 3.1 via either program manager or a dos shell, the file copied under the dos shell has errors whereas the file copied from within program manager does not. the corruption is detected by executing "pkunzip -t b:\file.zip" after both copies. the file copied via the dos shell always shows corruption. now here's the kicker: i have many windows open while doing this; both dos and windows apps. supposedly all windows' apps share the same time slice, whereas the dos apps get their own equal time slice (unless overriden). so, as an example, i have 5 windows' apps open, 2 multitasking dos sessions running, and one execution-execlusive dos shell iconized (inactive). under this scenario, cpu time is divided into two major slices: one for all the windows apps and one slice for the running dos app. when copying under windows pgm mgr, i'll assume the other windows and dos tasks are essentially inactive. thus pgm mgr gets, say, 80% of the windows slice and 95% of the execution-background dos shell's slices. thus it gets (.8)(.95)^2 = .72 or 72% of the total available cpu time. when copying in a dos shell, i activate the execute-exclusive mode dos shell (no other dos background tasks allowed), full screen, under the windows task manager. the cpu time available to this shell would be 80% of the windows slice (assumming inactive windows applications) and 100% of the dos slice: (1.0)(.8) = .8 or 80% of the total available cpu time. so why do i get copy errors under dos if it has the greater amount of cpu time? is program manager working in a pre-emptive mode during the floppy copy? it must be! miscellaneous data: running windows on top of dos 5.0, qemm 5.x, rapidbios.sys, 2.0 mbyte smartdrive (no delayed writes), two ramdrives, logitech mouse driver 6.2, full 16mbytes motherboard ram, 64kbyte motherboard cache, 386 dx 33 mhz. running dos-edit.com tsr in the dos shell. wayne long - oe215 internet: wcl@risc.sps.mot.com 6501 william cannon drive west uucp: cs.texas.edu!oakhill!risc!wcl austin, texas 78735-8598 phone (512) 891-4649 fax: 891-3818 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10085">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10085" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hello ! could anybody be so kind and tell me the date and possible ftp-location of the most recent win 3.1 printer drivers for: - canon bj-10e - canon lbp-4 i would really appreciate if you could help me with this. thanks in advance! kjell@hut.fi kjell@niksula.hut.fi kjell@vipunen.hut.fi 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10088">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10088" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am not sure whether i am here in the right area, but does anybody here know whether windows nt does/will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications no, it does not. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10090">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10090" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 when i use file manager's disk copy, i find that windows (3.1) can read the whole 1.2mb disk at one time, but only 98% of a 1.44 disk. it looks like a problem of memory. however, the pc has 4mb ram. there should be some way to allocat more extended memory for disk copy. please advise me on this matter. thanks in advance. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10094">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10094" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 maw ying yuan wrote  ...from: yuan@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (maw ying yuan) ...subject: replacement for program manager and file manager? ...message-id: <c68g1g.juj@news.hawaii.edu> ...date: thu, 29 apr 1993 06:44:04 gmt ...replacements for win3.1's program manager and file manager? ...yuan@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu :) i've been using plannet crafter's "plug-in" for program manager. its listed in most bbs'es as plugin13. its an add-on which gives some needed features to progman; such as the ability to better manage your groups, change your cursor and icons on the fly, constant status of ram and resources, "quick-menu" (a drop-down menu of dos commands or app launcher), plus some other neat stuff. used it, liked it, and even reg'd it <g>. if you can't find it anywhere, let me know and i'll zip it up and mail it to you (shareware version, of course <g>...) aloha... .. .es .. all hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. . slmr 2.1a . | idc bbs 510-865-7115 (usr hst 14.4k) 510-814-8097 (usr ds v.32bis) | | alameda, california - home of kingmail, kingqwk and qwkmerge | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10095">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10095" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 | >i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card. | >the driver i am currently using is version 1.21 and doesn't support more | >than 256 colors in 1024x768 mode even you have 2mb memory. | >the bbs support for actix is unbelievable! they are still using 2400bps | >modem! it will take you hours to download the drivers, it hurts when you | >are calling long distance. is there any ftp site that has a collection | >of video drivers for windows? | good but where are these drivers?? | >daniel y.h. wong uoft:(416)978-1659 | anybody at actix listening? upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese?! or somebody get them by a local call and contact a ftp site for uploading. if this is not possible, i can keep them on my disk and email the at request uuencoded. provided, that somebody sends them to me, of cource. (i live in ny:-) penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10097">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10097" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 organization: university of south dakota bitmaps i am posting one. due to the resolution and size it is in 14 parts. this is a uuencoded bitmap. 960x600 256 colors. the picture is a marbled gazebo on a desert with blue sky background. the size is just right for centered wallpaper on a 1024x768 display because it leaves a border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture. reguarding image quality and resolution - i have not seen much better. please do not do this! i don't know how the rest of you read news, but here's how i do it: i subscribe to an "outernet" system which allows me to dial up via modem and download e-mail and news articles automatically. when someone posts a huge attached binary file, i have no choice but to receive it along with all the other new articles in the groups i subscribe to. i also pay for the connect time, which is normally not a problem because i have a 14.4k modem and each day's upload/download session takes only 5 minutes or so. today's session, however, lasted about 25 minutes because of roman.bmp. consequently, it cost me about $3.00 extra just to receive a file that i didn't want in the first place. if you have cool bitmaps that you want to make available, there are other ways to do it: either upload the file to an ftp site (like ftp.cica.indiana.edu, which has a complete windows section) and tell people how to get to it, or use one of the newsgroups like alt.binaries.pictures (or something like that), which are file archives rather than discussion groups. don't use discussion groups like this one to send out attached files, especially when they're 600k in size. ed klein eklein@spiff.win.net 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10099">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10099" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 this morning at 4 am while i was working on my research paper, i had to reboot a hung dos program (that did no disk i/o) from within windows 3.1. when my machine finished rebooting, i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted. (stuff deleted) this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago. my hd was stacked with stacker v.2.0 (i run dos5) suddenly everything hung up, and most of the hd got corrupted (directories changed into unreadable files with 'funny' names). in other words: it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos6 that is troublesome. i now use stacker v 3.0, and so far i have had no trouble. does this need to have anything to do with disk compression? i have experienced the same thing a couple of times myself, but *without* any disk compression stuff installed. (for example, guess what happened when norton speeddisk once crashed during defragmenting!) bjorn- bjorn myrland * bjorn.myrland@sipaa.sintef.no sintef safety and reliability * n-7034 trondheim, norway sintef - the foundation for scientific and industrial research at the norwegian institute of technology 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10101">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10101" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts. for instance, the eisa orchid pro designer iis-e is only about as "fast" as the isa diamond speedstar plus, which isn't what i would call "fast." i don't understand why eisa video cards aren't, as a group, on the same level of performance as local bus cards, given that eisa video cards have a 32 bit bus to move data around, instead of isa's 8 bits. good question. answer: the eisa bus does move 32 bits rather than isa's 8/(16?) but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus. i think that's either 8 or 10 mhz. the local bus designs also move 32 bits like the eisa, but they move the data at the cpu speed, up to 40 mhz. so, on a 33mhz cpu, the local bus is moving 32bit data at 33 mhz, and the eisa is moving 32bit data at 8 or 10 mhz. so the local bus should be 3 to 4 times faster than eisa on a 33 mhz cpu. eisa should be about two (maybe 3) times as fast as isa. since they are not, why would anyone (me included) pay a higher cost for a eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that a much cheaper isa video board, such as a diamond speedstar 24x? from pc magazine's (i think) recent report, i know that ati makes a pretty fast eisa video card, but it's around $500, which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend. and, for $500, i could get a diamond viper and still have $100 left over (of course, i'd have to get a local bus mother- board too...) that's a very good question. the eisa bus does have more advantages over the isa bus than just it's width. for example: more/better interrupts and bus mastering. but these other factors do not impact a video card very much. they have more impact on file servers with multiple hard drives, full-throttle network cards, cd-roms, etc. can anyone shed some light on my confusion/frustration? thanks! christopher wroten, cfw@world.std.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10102">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10102" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 says: does anybody here know whether windows nt does/will include a x windows server . . . could you add some information to 'no it does not'. say for instance your source of information. source for "does not" comment: the cd-rom and manuals for the march beta -- there *is* no x windows server there. will there be? of course. (even) if microsoft supplies one with nt, other vendors will no doubt port their's to nt. according to a recent newsletter from hummingbird communications ltd., they announced exceede/nt at uniforum 93. the announcement reads like it is "here now", but there is no order or price info. i would guess it must be rsn. there is a dev kit too. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10103">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10103" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 regarding the horror stories about dos6/doubledisk and stacker 2.? killing hard drives: i was wondering if the dos 6 mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table. if it records the vital doubledisk info, then using it daily should go a long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed. if it doesn't, then shame on microsoft. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10110">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10110" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a 486 sx 25 and i recently added a scsi drive to my system using an adaptec 1522 (non busmastering) controller. yesterday i ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values i got seagate 106 meg: 875.1kb/sec 14.5ms avg seek 3.7ms track to track quantum 400 meg scsi: 991.2 kb/sec 12.7 avg seek 3.6 track to track. first off all are these good results? i don't know what typical values those are pretty typical, i believe. what i'm wondering now is the following. my swap file is currently on the ide. i could move it to the scsi which is 13% faster, but then i would not be able to use 32-bit access which might actuall make it slower. so on which drive should i put my swap file to get best results? is there a swap file speed test program out there? keep the swap file on the ide. 32-bit access is worth a fair amount more than 13%. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10111">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10111" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 one of our users is having an unusual problem. if she does an alt/tab to a full-screen dos program, when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed. if she goes back to a full-screen dos program and then goes back to windows, the font has changed back to its default font. it's not a major problem (everything works and the font is legible), but it is annoying. does anyone have any idea why this happens. by the way, she has a dec 486d2lp machine. jeffrey m. cohen voice: 518-442-3510 office for research (ad 218) fax: 518-442-3560 the university at albany e-mail: jc924@uacsc2.albany.edu state university of new york 1400 washington ave. albany, ny 12222 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10115">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10115" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 can anyone tell me where to find a standard vesa display driver that will support the on-the-motherboard xga video of a 486 50mz dx2 ibm model 95 (8595-0lf)? i need to use 640 x 480 and higher resolutions under both windows 3.1 and ms-dos. minimum colors 256 at highest resolution, with 64k colors needed at 640 x 480. gary r. michael | phone: (217) 244-3651 associate director | fax: (217) 244-3118 office for information management | e-mail: gmichael@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu university of illinois | (128.174.5.98) 18 david kinley hall | novanet: gary michael / duosoft / cerl 1407 west gregory drive | urbana, il 61801 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10118">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10118" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, yet i cannot think of even *one* computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else. xerox-parc/apple, osborne, next, gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing. what has microsoft done to be a technological leader? i posted this question before, but i got nary a reply. i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something-especially microsoft employees. i get no response this time, i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none--which is what i suspect anyway. kurt d. bollacker duke university medical center kdb@sunbar.mc.duke.edu durham, nc 27710 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10119">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10119" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, yet i cannot think of even *one* computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else. xerox-parc/apple, osborne, next, gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing. what has microsoft done to be a technological leader? i posted this question before, but i got nary a reply. i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something-especially microsoft employees. i get no response this time, i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none--which is what i suspect anyway. really when you come down to it who cares. i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses. thx dave l 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10120">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10120" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i friend of mine installed dos6 at work and is hooked up to a novell network, running netware 386 v.3.11. the problem he's having is that the doublespace program is using drive 'h' as the swap drive, which is confliting with the networks mapped drives. is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive? please e-mail....thanks a bunch!! cu826@cleveland.freenet.edu determine the last dblspace drive required and set that as lastdrive in your config.sys if you are using w4ww you might want to go a couple of drives higher to give you some shared drive space. reboot and novell will set its first drive one above the lastdrive in config.sys. you might have to remap some of your novell drives if they were originally mapped to lower drives. make sure that the bat file or whatever you are using to log onto novell is set to the correct drive (one above the lastdrive setting in the config.sys file). 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10122">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10122" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 "the preferred applications development platform" according to 432 of the fortune 1000 corporations survey by sentry market research survey 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos & msw 24 18 development of what? in-house apps? maybe, but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market. statistics like that are laughable, because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink-wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10123">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10123" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, yet i cannot think of even *one* computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else. xerox-parc/apple, osborne, next, gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing. what has microsoft done to be a technological leader? i posted this question before, but i got nary a reply. i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something-especially microsoft employees. i get no response this time, i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none--which is what i suspect anyway. really when you come down to it who cares. i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses. personally, i'll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well, i hope to see much harsher/stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms, concepts, interfaces, and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators. i'd hate to be one who actually does innovate, and then have microsoft come in like a huge vulture and use their brute mass (development staff, marketing, etc) to get fat off of my innovation. i don't have all that much sympathy for apple's complaint against microsoft, since they just took the ideas from xerox's pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears. however, for other companies and individuals who have a great idea, yet get it "borrowed" by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market, without any licensing from the original innovator, i feel much sympathy. larry weeks | "those who fight monsters should make sure that dev@ecn.purdue.edu | in the process he does not become a monster, and -------------------+ when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you." -- friedrich nietszche 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10126">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10126" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi ! i am trying to develop a utility to view word for window file. but to do that i need to know the format of the doc ( word for window file format ) files.can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can i get it. or is it proprietory format ? your help is greatly appriciated. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10127">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10127" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for a way to get our company logo onto documents and figure the easiest way is to put it into a font. are there any public domain programs that can do this? is there any shareware that will do this? any help is appreciated. paul wilson 416 698 3649 pwilson@gandalf.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10128">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10128" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, yet i cannot think of even *one* computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else. xerox-parc/apple, osborne, next, gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing. what has microsoft done to be a technological leader? i posted this question before, but i got nary a reply. i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something-especially microsoft employees. i get no response this time, i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none--which is what i suspect anyway. kurt d. bollacker duke university medical center kdb@sunbar.mc.duke.edu durham, nc 27710 - they invented the "how to make money on others ideas". - they made money. - they weren't in the air at the wrong time... admit it billg is a damn smart guy. how many out there can make money on almost useless products...useless even if you look at the time dos were written..it stinked already then.. if i could choose one marketing guy in the world, i think i would choose him. he's so good that almost everyone hates him, but they still use his stuff... ' i'm not perfect, but i'm perfect for you. ' * shavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalessha * * vethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavet * * hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew * * halesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhal * * esshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhaless * 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10136">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10136" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am not sure whether i am here in the right area, but does anybody here know whether windows nt does/will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications no, it does not. could you add some information to 'non it does not'. say for instance your source of information. i have a copy. it isn't in there. microsoft says it will not be in the release version, either. he just asked if it did or not. i told you're welcome. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10137">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10137" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for a good terminal program that will connect to tcp/ip using windows. some basic ms-window that is connect to a unix host would be great. any suggestions? take a look at winqvt/net -- the latest version is qvt/net 3.4 it comes in versions that are direct to packet driver, as well as a pc nfs it is priced quite low; registration = $40, student registration = $20, and is a nice package -- comes complete with vt220 terminal emulation, ftp, pop3 client, lpr, and nntp client. you can ftp it from "biochemistry.bioc.cwru.edu" /pub/qvtnet/qvtnet34.zip it was also uploaded to ftp.cica.indiana.edu recently. ashok aiyar mail: ashok@biochemistry.cwru.edu department of biochemistry tel: (216) 368-3300 cwru school of medicine, cleveland, ohio fax: (216) 368-4544 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10140">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10140" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10141">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10141" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 sombody's data is wrong. since mac os, finder, systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn't appear in the first survey, i tend to doubt their results more. just because sombody wrote it doesn't mean its correct. note that the two tables don't talk about the same population. one is fortune 1000 companies favoring the platform as their primary application platform, the other is sales (to everyone, not just fortune 1000). fortune 1000 companies don't do a lot of development with the mac as their top platform. i would expect that that would explain the discrepancy. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10142">
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 i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts. for instance, the eisa orchid pro designer iis-e is only about as "fast" as the isa diamond speedstar plus, which isn't what i would call "fast." i don't understand why eisa video cards aren't, as a group, on the same level of performance as local bus cards, given that eisa video cards have a 32 bit bus to move data around, instead of isa's 8 bits. good question. answer: the eisa bus does move 32 bits rather than isa's 8/(16?) but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus. i think that's either 8 or 10 mhz. the local bus designs also move 32 bits like the eisa, but they move the data at the cpu speed, up to 40 mhz. so, on a 33mhz cpu, the local bus is moving 32bit data at 33 mhz, and the eisa is moving 32bit data at 8 or 10 mhz. so the local bus should be 3 to 4 times faster than eisa on a 33 mhz cpu. eisa should be about two (maybe 3) times as fast as isa. i would expect the eisa board to be more than twice as fast as the isa board. not only are you moving data on a path twice as wide (at least), but there is a difference in the number of clocks required for bus transactions between the two busses. most isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction -- typically this is around 3-4. eisa boards are suppose to be able to 'burst' at a 1:1 rate, so i would expect performance to be 6x-8x that of an isa card. so i guess, for me, the question is unanswered still. i would expect him to be able to see a 6x speed difference, and he apparently does "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10144">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10144" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 one of our users is having an unusual problem. if she does an alt/tab to a full-screen dos program, when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed. if she goes back to a full-screen dos program and then goes back to windows, the font has changed back to its default font. it's not a major problem (everything works and the font is legible), but it is annoying. does anyone have any idea why this happens. by the way, she has a dec 486d2lp machine. if it's any consolation, i had a similar problem. as i recall, if i exited from a dos session while in full-screen mode, the menu titles had changed to a scrambled version of the icon title font (or something like that). it only started happening after i used icontitlefacename in win.ini to change the desktop font to arial. so i stopped exiting from dos sessions while in full-screen mode. my mac used to do something similar. aren't computers weird? | mark hadfield hadfield@wao.greta.cri.nz | | niwa oceanographic (taihoro nukurangi) | | 310 evans bay rd, greta point telephone: (+64-4) 386-1189 | | po box 14-901, kilbirnie fax: (+64-4) 386-2153 | | wellington, new zealand | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10148">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10148" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : i am running win 3.1 with ndw 2.2 on a 486sx with 8 meg of memory and a : 6 meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my : applications are not giving back system resources when i close them. i've noticed this also. the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done. anyone out there know if this is why? there was a post about something similar a while back. it seems windows does *not* take it upon itself to free up any sys. resources an applllication is using when that application is done. that job is left entirely to the application. that is, the application has to clean up after itself when it quits. anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys. resources when an application quits (mother.zip???). pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10149">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10149" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 there has been a long running discussion over changing the startup logo for windows for a few weeks here. while all the copy methods are great & haven't seen any mention of a program that will do it for you..... well... i found one on cica called winlogo (can't remember where unfortuantely), and it seems to work real well... even comes with a couple example .rle files. what i'd really like though is a way to create .rle files myself, specifically the rle4 format mentioned in the winlogo readme file. can anyone point me in the direction of such a beast with a real directory path ?? all the ones i've seen mentioned didn't pan out..... |e-mail --> un*x: oddjob@oz.plymouth.edu |vms: andys@psc.plymouth.edu | |disclaimer > any "end-user" software that provides no avenue for user | |of the week> modification or programmability is not user friendly. | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10150">
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 here's the situation: at home, i have ms word for windows but no printer. at work, i have windows + a postscript printer, but not ms word. so, i configure my machine at home to use a postscript printer, and use the print to file option, which produces a nice postscript file, which i then bring to work. my question: how do i print this postscript file through the print manager at work? if, for example, i select print from the file manager, it treats the postscript as a text file, and gives me several pages of postscript gibberish. i know that i can open a dos window and do: copy file.ps com1: which does work, but seems not to multitask very well -- other applications run rather slowly and often pause for 10's of seconds. there ought to be a way of passing the postscript file to the print manager, but if there is, i can't find any mention of it in the anyone know how to do this? michael clase memorial university of newfoundland mclase@riemann.math.mun.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10151">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10151" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, yet i cannot think of even *one* computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else. xerox-parc/apple, osborne, next, gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing. what has microsoft done to be a technological leader? i posted this question before, but i got nary a reply. i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something-especially microsoft employees. i get no response this time, i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none--which is what i suspect anyway. really when you come down to it who cares. i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses. thx dave l if you think that windows is useable, you must not use it much. windows version of "crash protection" is wearing a helmet while computing. the arir (air) bag is an expensive add-on. ladies & gentlemen... please keep this discussion in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy where it belongs. thank you. john a. grant jagrant@emr1.emr.ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada, ottawa john a. grant jagrant@emr1.emr.ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada, ottawa 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10152">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10152" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 on my pc i almost exclusively run windows. the only dos based application i have is procommplus. in my config.sys i have emm386 loaded with the option noems (no expanded memory). following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups, i read that it was no necessary to have emm386 loaded. indeed, emm386 noems enables the system to use the "upper memory" between 640 and 1024. that's a good place for device drivers, dos kernal, etc. (keep it in!) emm386 is not reqired to load the dos kernal high (or else you couldn't do it on a 286). in a mail message i recommended that he remove it since he only runs procomplus frequently in dos, and i suspect emm386 will slow down windows. -charles a. cballen@clemson.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10154">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10154" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'm using bc++'s objectwindows (3.1), trying to resond to the left button double click message wm_lbuttondblclk in a combo box. my codes look like: class mycombobox : public tcombobox public: mycombobox(ptwindowsobject aparent, int resourceid, word atextlen) : tcombobox(aparent, resourceid, atextlen) {}; virtual void wmlbuttondblclk(rtmessage msg) = [wm_first + wm_lbuttondblclk]; void mycombobox::wmlbuttondblclk(rtmessage msg) ... // responding to the message (selecting the item in the list box) anything wrong with my program? any help would be appreciated. -- jun to talk to the lord with ps/2 through ms-windows 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10158">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10158" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : i am running win 3.1 with ndw 2.2 on a 486sx with 8 meg of memory and a : 6 meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my : applications are not giving back system resources when i close them. i've noticed this also. the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done. anyone out there know if this is why? there was a post about something similar a while back. it seems windows does *not* take it upon itself to free up any sys. resources an applllication is using when that application is done. that job is left entirely to the application. that is, the application has to clean up after itself when it quits. anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys. resources when an application quits (mother.zip???). it could also be that your shell is hogging the resources. for example, open the apps with data files that cause resulting low system resources with ndw 2.x as shell, then do the same with program manager, and see if it's the shell or the 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10160">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10160" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have just upgraded from a trident tvga9000 to an ati graphics ultra (the old mach8 chip). i am quite pleased with the performance so far, but have one problem. when using windows in 800x600, i have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when i was using the trident card. is there a setting in my .ini files that i can change to make these smaller ? i could not find the faq for this list... --mike mdtancsa@watarts.uwaterloo.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10161">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10161" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 has anybody had a chance to find out how the new hp laser jet 4l behaves with windows ? daniel royer 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10162">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10162" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 please don't post uuencoded bitmaps here. if you want to do so, put them in the alt.binaries.* areas. these files are very large and may crash some users newsfeeds. it's also a waste of band width. also, we all know how to convert .gif to .bmp with many programs so it'd really not worth posting all of these .bmp files. kirk membry "our age is the age of industry" rutgers!viamar!kmembry - alexander rodchenko 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10166">
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 i'm trying to install wordperfect 5.2 for windows on my computer. i'm running a 386sx25 w/ 2meg ram and a 4meg virtual mem setting for windows. i keep getting errors when i try to run wp52. it tells me that i don't have enough memory or disk space (since i have 47megs free on the hd, i'm assuming that i don't have enough memory). can anyone tell me what it takes to run this beast? thanks. /___________________________) | >> stealth dave >> / [@@@> destill@mtu.edu |__ ________________/ / ***** / ( / if you are caught using this address, internet / ***** /____/ will deny any responsibility of its use. this / ***** / e-mail will self-destruct in 10 seconds... /_______/ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10167">
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 "the preferred applications development platform" according to 432 of the fortune 1000 corporations survey by sentry market research survey 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos & msw 24 18 development of what? in-house apps? maybe, but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market. statistics like that are laughable, because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink-wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base. actually, you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows. pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft's excel development group does its development under os/2. another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work. sco unix is and has been a reasonably popular development platform for dos, windows, and even os/2 apps. dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work, imho, and apparently others agree. marc fraioli mfraioli@grebyn.com (so i'm a minimalist...) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10169">
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 [stuff deleted about microsoft] if you think that windows is useable, you must not use it much. windows version of "crash protection" is wearing a helmet while computing. the arir (air) bag is an expensive add-on. you must of read too many os/2 advertisements. "crash protection" is such a marketing gimick, it isn't funny.. out of 4 months of using windows on my new machine i've only had it crash once, and i don't have a "run of the mill" wow, what did you use it for? single-tasked word processing? i have 8 files loaded right now and a 29-mb virtual machine (12mb of ram). my friend down the street gripes that he can't even format a floppy in the background. many unix people love os/2 because they are used to multi-tasking systems. microsoft is not a leader in innovation, but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap. now, what's wrong with that?? too bad they hold a gun to the mouse piper while they throw mice at their "new" trap, trying to get it to work. :) |kenton+@cmu.edu | os/2 fixes broken windows | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10171">
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 i have a very funny yet confusing problem. i am using telemate within win 3.1. everytime i close dos box, my telemate operation get affected (normally i am doing file transfer). however, if i open + close windows program everything seems running smoothly. my file transfer operation get affected only if i close dos box. can somebody please gimme some pointers on what is going on and how to fix it?? thanks in advance glenn jayaputera 
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 a friend of mine uses windows 3.1 to do most of her work. unfortunately, she has very bad eyesight, and we haven't been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus, or the font used by the help program (what use is hypertext if you can't read it?) to make it legible to her. if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts, of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people, please let me know. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10173">
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 [munch] you must of read too many os/2 advertisements. "crash protection" is such a marketing gimick, it isn't funny.. out of 4 months of using windows on my new machine i've only had it crash once, and i don't have a "run of the mill" [munch following is reformatted] it does sound funny, i will admit. but for me it is true. windows crashed on all of the time (and from what i have read in pc mag, this is not the exception) i'd say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare. windows _itself_ almost never crashes, but it can be crashed by an errant application (my personal favorite? any one of the corel 3.0 programs). on the other hand, i have had os/2 crash randomly a number of times, mostly just running it's own applications. for instance. today i discovered a new one. while i was downloading with procomm plus for windows (running seamless with the standard vga drivers on a run-o' da mill vga card--640x480), i decided that i wanted to edit a copy of a quote that i wanted to add to my .finger. but since i've learned not to really trust seamless, i fired up a full screen winos/23.1 session. whoops, the download finished while winos/2 was loading. it had _just_ gotten the pointer up, so i hit alt-escape to get back t the desktop (i have a lot of fonts, so loading takes a good long while). blam. screen trashed, procomm hangs up. hm. well, i can sorta see the mouse, so i clicked on the minimized winos/2 session and got back my fullscreen windows session (but the color were off--red and green and yellow and brown instead of blues and greys). so i closed this, and got back to the desktop (now fully restored). pp+ was still sitting, window open, but it was no longer "connected" to the com port--so i exited it (the normal way-- it told me i was still online and it would hang up, though it was _already_ hung up). hm. well, load anothe--no, bad idea. shutdown and reboot. ok, refresh first.. now, shutdown. yes, everything is closed... hm. nothing seems to be happening. let's see.. ah, the windows list still comes up. ok, let's try shutdown again. no go. huh. alright, wait 60 seconds to see if it's just running slow. hmm. still seems to be running os/2. try shutdown again. nothing. oh well. reboot. enjoy the checkdisk time. in this case, a part of the os crashed not only itself, but os/2 entirely (which isn't even smart enough to tell when it;s been compromised, i guess). in everyday (specifically _today_) os/2 gives each windows app a vdm and they can't touch each other or (generally) anything they aren't supposed to have. that's the idea, anyway. in truth, when a program crashes on os/2, it will bring the system down with it. the programs that would just gpf under windows do the same under os/2, but programs that are fine under dos and windows bring os/2 screaming to a halt, task protection or no. for instance, i'm still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp 5.1 (dos) locks up my system. it works fine under dos or even in a dos box under windows 3.1. (admittedly, it doesn't crash if i run wp51 full screen, but the first time this bug big me, it bit hard). if windows works for you, then great. maybe this is why some people don't see why os/2 is the os of choice. if windows doesn't crash on you, and you don't mind waiting on each please explain. the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i'm copying or formatting a floppy, or when printing (and even then, not long--i get 9 to 11 pages dumped to the printman per minute, and can _still_ go do things--slowly--while it's doing this--i've downloaded with pp+ @9600 while printing). and not being able to adress your memory better than dos, not sure what you mean here. os/2 sees 16 megs, uses 5 or six of these for it's own use (more if you want to count winos/2). windows sees 16 megs, uses 3 or 4 (more like 5 if you count the disk cache as i am for os/2) for itself. if memory efficiency were a big issue, pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop. some of the key reasons for using os/2 are gone. i probably would still use it, but it would be more of an even fight. on the other hand.. i am finally able to say with some confidence that both os/2 and windows have a bit of hardware sensitivity to them. for instance, the machine i am sitting at runs both fine, while the machine next to me constantly locks up under windows. (but ran os/2 without a hitch once i got it through a 5-crash install). on the whole, i'd say os/2 is a whole lot more sensitive than windows, but there are (i suppose) machines that windows just doesn't like. wittism of th week: "i think that it's wrong to believe in an ism, you should believe in yourself" ferrish bueller wasn't this _ferris_ bueller? there are stupid laws, and then there are stupider than normal laws. 
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 - they invented the "how to make money on others ideas". - they made money. - they weren't in the air at the wrong time... * hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew * he doesn't have a beard. rob, being pointless, wondeing if anyone else caught that. ____ ___ ____ / \ any resemblance between the above views and || \ // \ || \ / rob \ those of my faculty advisor, my terminal, or ||__/ || | ||__/ / mohns \ the view out my window are purely coinci- || \ || | || \ / \ dental. richard traina may or may not || \ \\__/ ||__/ / rmohns@vax \ support said views, but probably doesn't ================== / .clarku.edu \ want clarkies to think about them. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10177">
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 and not being able to adress your memory better than dos, not sure what you mean here. os/2 sees 16 megs, uses 5 or six of these for it's own use (more if you want to count winos/2). windows sees 16 megs, uses 3 or 4 (more like 5 if you count the disk cache as i am for os/2) for itself. if memory efficiency were a big issue, pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop. i assumed he was referring to os/2's 32-bit flat model addressing while dos (and therefore windows) use 20-bit segmented addressing. as a programmer, i agree that segmentation unnecessarily complicates things. it's annoying, too. but when just a windows user, i don't think about it much. and, i doubt many other people think about it (or even care) when just writing a document, calcing a spreadsheet, etc...it works and they get their work done. just a neutral comment: it's funny, i think, how arguments about windows vs os/2 sound so very similar to arguments about atheism vs christianity or something like that. it's somehow very personal to people. convictions are irrational and there's nothing wrong with that--it's just...interesting. brad smalling :: jr.ee :: ga tech :: atlanta, ga :: gt2617c@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10178">
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 i'd say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare. windows _itself_ almost never crashes, but it can be crashed by an errant application (my personal favorite? any one of the corel 3.0 programs). on the other hand, i have had os/2 crash randomly a number of times, mostly just running it's own applications. i _do_ know that ibm systems, the ps/2 56slc2, in particular, have absolutely no problem with os/2--never had a "random" crash while running any of my programs under os/2. in fact, i don't remember _ever_ crashing. of course, i really don't run any os/2 programs, just the same bunch of dos and windows stuff that i've always been running. and when i had the 56slc (this is the 386slc system) running dos/windows, i had only one crash, and it was consistent. ftp had a tendency to crash whenever i would get large files (>1mb) from particularly fast clients (dtr's 150k-200k/sec), i figured out the problem was with smartdrv's write buffering--if i turned off the write buffer, everything would work fine. ftp under os/2 has never locked, though. i can even format floppies (to use the most often cited example of the superiority of os/2.) for instance, i'm still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp 5.1 (dos) locks up my system. yeah, i guess i'm willing to admit that os/2 is somewhat sensitive to specific hardware. wp51 for dos works perfectly fine on my slc2... please explain. the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i'm copying or formatting a floppy, or when printing (and even then, not long--i get 9 to 11 pages dumped to the printman per minute, and can _still_ go do things--slowly--while it's doing this--i've downloaded with pp+ @9600 while printing). well, i save all my personal files to floppy, and when i did that under windows, a floppy save of a large file hung up the system. i also found it quite bothersome to have to continually tweak the tasking options on fractint for dos whenever i wanted to do a fractal computation in the background. and not being able to address your memory better than dos, not sure what you mean here. the idea is that os/2's dos sessions can see more memory than windows dos sessions. i let xpl (a shareware calculus program) see around 720kb of free _conventional_ memory, which lets me do bigger symbolic manipulations than is possible under straight dos (where it would see around 610kb of conventional ram.). i also found it really handy for my _own_ dos-based programs, which, without any re-writing, could now handle larger data sets, simulate for more iterations, etc. of course, the point is now moot, since the os/2 programs i now write simply _never_ run into memory limitations. i never programmed for windows, so i don't have much of a comparison here, though.... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10179">
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 "the preferred applications development platform" 1992 1993 unix 18 28 dos & msw 24 18 development of what? in-house apps? maybe, but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market. statistics like that are laughable, actually, you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows. pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft's excel development group does its development under os/2. if you believe that, i have a nice piece for swamp for you for re development. microsoft does even its techpubs under windows. another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work. that wasn't geo works, was it? :-) dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work, imho, and apparently others agree. nonsense. sorry, i make fun of windows all the time, but the above is simply a myth. tell that to microsoft, novell and others who dominate the market. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10180">
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 i've been using final from coda for some time, but suddenly it stopped using my fonts. i have a 386 pc with lots of disk space and memory, a postscript laser, win3.1, finale 2.0.1 and i recently installed atm 2.0. i've been fiddling around with the windows setup for some time, and when i needed to do some work with finale things didn't print properly. it might - and it might not - have anything to do with the installation of atm from 1.something to 2.0, but i don't have the old atm lying around anomore. the most annoying problem was that the petrucci font didn't print, which is a rather important font :-) i managed to get direct printing to work if i included ownps=0 in the [finale] section of win.ini, but compile postscript listing still doesn't work; and it's those .eps files i need. when i look at the .eps files generated the only font which appears there is courier. i found out that if i manually changed the courier 24-point to petrucci 24-point in the .eps file everything worked ok, but i'd rather avoid that since i have a lot of songs to work with. and yes, in the special/font/font names dialog box all the fonts i need are listed, with the correct mapping between finale, screen and printer fonts. finale is obviously aware of the fonts since direct printing of a score works well (that is, after i included ownps=0), and all my other windows applications print petrucci and the other fonts well. has anyone encountered problems like this? what is the current version of finale from coda music software? i have 2.0.1 are the people at coda available on internet or x.400? i'd be grateful for all hints and help. -mats internet: mats@gar.no quikcomm: mats@gar#@genor serverp: mats garp x.400: g=mats; s=tande; o=oslo; p=gr; a=telemax; c=no; 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10181">
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 i install one wav driver: pc-speaker, then install mpeg 2.0 phoenix.oulu.fi:/pub/incoming/mpeg2_0/mpegexe.zip --/ in windows 3.1. but when i load one mpeg file and make sound type to wav or mpeg,it always say error. when i load one mpeg file which have wav file( ~.wav),then select sound type to wav,it is normal and no error,but i still can't hear sound. what should i do? fix the sounddrv number in mfw.ini? thankx for any help... internet address: u7911093@cc.nctu.edu.tw english name: erik wang chinese name: wang jyh-shyang national chiao-tung university,taiwan,r.o.c. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10184">
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 i'm working at a workstation which is usually attached to a novell network (using shell version 3.22, i think). the workstation, a 386, was set up to run windows 3.0 with the network about a year ago. needless to say, i'd like to upgrade it to windows 3.1, and have it work with the network. basically, the windows files'd be on the local hard drive, but several dos applications, like word perfect, will be on the network. i'd mainly want windows to access the network drives, the network printers, and perhaps handle some network functions as well. if i could multitask the dos apps whose executables are on the network, that'd be great, but i could live without it. eventually, i'd like to get a few other 486s in the office working with the network and windows 3.1 as well. (however, most of the terminals are 286s, which leaves the network pretty much dos-bound, and i guess that leaves out windows for workgroups.) and in the future, maybe there'd be norton desktop, but that's gettingahead of myself. as you can guess, i've never done anything like this before. i've read through the networks material that came with windows, but still, i'd like to know if anyone out there has any experience in such an area. please reply by email. i don't scan these newsgroups often. thanks for any replies. brian "rev. p-k" siano revpk@cellar.org "well, i'll know right away by the look in her eyes she's lost all illusions and she's worldly wise, and i know if i give her a listen, she's what i've been missing, what i've been missing i'll be lost in love and havin' some fun with my cynical girl who's got no use for the real world, i'm looking for a cynical girl" --- marshall crenshaw, "cynical girl" 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10185">
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 i recently purchased a diamond stealth 24 video card and received the wrong drivers. does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers? the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card. please respond to doug@sun.sws.uiuc.edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now (also the most up to date) use the bbs at 1-408-439-9096. they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low. yeah, i know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick. maybe someone has them on the net. i've got the stealth drivers. the number you gave is the borland bbs, and darned if i can find any stealth drivers there! diamond's bbs is 1-408-730-1100 - according to the manual i got with my stealth-24. i have had a bunch of trouble using the right drivers that came with the card (locking up, de-syncing, etc.) so i hope you do better than i do! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10191">
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 i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window 3.1 as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing. you have one. minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it. you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though. tony annese claebaur@shell.portal.com -or- claebaur@cup.portal.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10192">
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 ---hey isn't it funny how betas have bugs in them.... hey...do me a favor and don't put up stupid posts. clarkson university, potsdam ny - campbers@craft.clarkson.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10193">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10193" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 maw ying yuan wrote ...from: yuan@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (maw ying yuan) ...subject: replacement for program manager and file manager? ...message-id: <c68g1g.juj@news.hawaii.edu> ...date: thu, 29 apr 1993 06:44:04 gmt ...replacements for win3.1's program manager and file manager? ...yuan@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu :) i've been using plannet crafter's "plug-in" for program manager. the best one i've seen is ceo, by sloop software. they have a sharware version, but the retail version is only $40-50. it's incredibly complete, subfolders to any level, choose any icon, hot keys, drop down menus, button bars, etc. haven't found anything it doesn't do. try mailing 72540.144@compuserve.com for details. | tom hansen || "my beard grows to my toes. i never wears no | | tom@vpnet.chi.il.us || clothes. i wraps my hair around my bare, and | | "i yam what i yam" || down the road i goes." - shel silverstein | |______________________||___________________________________________________| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10194">
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 everyone seems to think that this man's mouse problem is mechanical (its dirty) i have been having a similar problem with my mouse, and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature. i'm running a mouse systems compatible mouse on a 486 66 dx2 with a trident 1 meg video card and a m experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous e traces left on screen and windows gpf errors. help!!! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10195">
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 i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window 3.1 as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing. you have one. minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it. you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though. tony annese claebaur@shell.portal.com -or- claebaur@cup.portal.com this may work, but won't it involve invoking the applications, e.g. if you drag a .bmp or .txt file to the min. print manager icon, won't it run notepad and paintbrush before printing? if you just want to drag a file (.txt or .bmp) to a print server icon, with stay at front attributes, you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print 2.0. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10197">
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 you have one. minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it. you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though. this may work, but won't it involve invoking the applications, e.g. if you drag a .bmp or .txt file to the min. print manager icon, won't it run notepad and paintbrush before printing? if you just want to drag a file (.txt or .bmp) to a print server icon, with stay at front attributes, you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print 2.0. yes it invokes the associated application. that takes but 10 seconds? tony annese claebaur@shell.portal.com -or- claebaur@cup.portal.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10198">
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 i've started getting a message from windows 3.1 whenever i try to execute a dos program from windows, either thru the program manager or the file manager. a message box comes up and says "this program or one of its components is compressed. use the ms-dos expand command to expand the file." now, i know this is bogus, because i can always execute the program from dos when not running windows. the program in question is command.com (yup, the basic dos command line shell...) and, the expand command tells me that the file is already expanded. all my windows apps work just fine - i only get this message when trying to execute a dos program from windows. clues anyone? thanks!! christopher wroten, cfw@world.std.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10199">
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 i'm writing a mail management system using word for windows 2.0 as a front end. the user dials up a remote system and downloads a batch of mail as "foo.txt ." i've set up an autoexec macro in winword to load "foo.txt" ok, but subsequent invocations of the macro will of course pose file name contention problems. what i'd really like to do is to create an autoexit macro in winword that would move "foo.txt" to a specified directory, rename it using the current date and time, and delete the original "foo.txt ." in other words, "foo.txt" gets renamed as "5012300", say, on may 1 at 23:00- the user gets a time-indexed backup of his mail files and "foo.txt" is freed up for the next packet of mail, since my autoexec macro points to it. my main question is this: how may one rename a file from within a wordbasic macro to include a time/date variable in the new filename? thanks- "if you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking a beer, i bet it makes beer shoot out of your nose." -- jack handey erich w. lantz | ewl@world.std.com | timberville, va | dod #0815 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10200">
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 in a previous article, ellard2@husc8.harvard.edu (daniel ellard) says: a friend of mine uses windows 3.1 to do most of her work. unfortunately, she has very bad eyesight, and we haven't been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus, or the font used by the help program (what use is hypertext if you can't read it?) to make it legible to her. if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts, of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people, please let me know. the may issue of pc/computing page 246 has a windows hint and tips for just this thing. you have to edit the win.ini file and add a couple of lines. i tried it and it works. i actually made my title bar and iconized text, and icon text smaller. on my monitor it works well. you can select a larger font also. you edit the win.ini file with a font name in your system directory. read the article because i would not want to retype it here in case i type errored and caused your system problems. c-ya..... /\/\artin this communication is sent by /\/\artin university of arizona tucson ak333@cleveland.freenet.edu mlinsenb@ccit.arizona.edu mlinsenb@arizvms death has been dead for about 2,000 years ****** follow the king of kings 
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 when will i be able to call my favorite mail order software shop and buy jeff dragovich dragovic@cevax.ce.uiuc.edu 
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 hallo ! ebosco@us.oracle.com wrote on 28.04.93 about : emm386 and windows e>von : ebosco@us.oracle.com (mi, 28.04.93 18:03) e>name: eric bosco e>should i use emm386 or should i remove it from my config.sys? basically: windows prefers extendend memory instead of expanded (more work to do for win) and if no application desperatly needs ems, you should leave emm386 with a "rem" in your config.sys. 
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 i am working with visual basic v2.0 for windows. specifically, i am working on an application that generates formatted reports. since, some of these reports can be rather large, my first question is: 1. is there a way to increase the size of a list box or text box in visual basic/windows beyond the 64k limit? as i have not (as yet - being optimistic :-) come across a way to get around the above problem, i am working on the following approach: i am trying to create my own defined template in ms-word, using the wordbasic macros so that i can open up word from visual basic(vb) and load this template of mine, which will work in the following way: it will first open myown.ini file (created in vb - at the time when the user selected the kind of report he weanted) and read the section from the .ini file and jump to the appropriate code in template - which will then open and read a file pertaining to the section it read from the .ini file. 1. when using the getprofilestring function in wordbasic, is there a way to specify/change the default .ini file (which is win.ini) to myown.ini file? 2. when using the file input$ function in wordbasic - is there a way to read more than the 32k at one time? any help will be appreciated. pgupta@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10598">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10598" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 yesterday, a friend of mine got a new driver for his card that more than doubled the speed... naturally, besides being a tad jealous (same machine -- different cards), it got me thinking... what if i am using a slow driver? wouldn't that be _horrible_ ? :) so netlanders, i need samples of your collective experience (sic) -- do you proud owners of a trident 8900c video card w/ 1mb vram have tried out more than one driver fro ms win 3.1 which? which is the fastest? not to be selfish, and to give you a motive for responding, i promise i am going to collect all the answers, and the actual drivers (provided u give me a site to get it from or uuencode&mail) get the winmarks using pc magazine`s winbench and... post the results here... i am interested in svga drivers only (plain vga users should run the win driver, or this is what i 've heard -- dont flame me!) particularly 800x600x16 and/or 800x600x256 (that should cover the majority of svga users) well, what are you waiting for? hit that r or f or whatever... all input welcome -- so are money and sun sparcstations... thanx in advance... costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- oit doesn't pay me enough to share their opinions... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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 and i would hardly call a command that can delete a tree, and a move command, as a state of the art wiz-bang feature. they are damn necessary, i have often cursed not being able to have some kind of recursive delete you are missing something. with the windows file manager, you _can_. ms but i don't want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree - it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files! it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car. wants people to buy windows, not dos. ms _knows_ dos won't last forever. only because its crap, which is noones fault but their own. they want you to move to windows 3.1, then later to win32, and eventually to cairo. this way they give you a reason to. by deliberately crippling the product? surely no... oh, hold on, i guess you're right. that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques. but the point still remains that a command to delete trees is not new technology, and is the kind of thing one would have expected to see long before windows was even dreamt of. want good file handling? use fileman.exe. "this product requires microsoft windows." dos is dead. well amen to that, but i wish it were a damn sight deader. for a dead product, its used an awful lot. and i suspect its going to carry on twitching for a long while yet, which isn't doing anyone any good. (and microsoft don't appear to have given up marketing dos, so it is a very unusual form of death indeed). +---- tim walls --------------------------------- sysop - protocol bbs ----+ | data/fax: +44(0)403 272931 fidonet 2:253/513 amiganet 39:133/1 | | twalls@ncc1701d.demon.co.uk | +---------------------------------------- pgp 2.2 public key available ----+ 
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 * announcing * * cosy_pak * * (a symbolic control systems analysis package) * * version 0.9 * * (no user fee release) * * for * * mathematica version 2.0 or higher * ==> introduction cosy_pak is set of packages and notebooks for classical control and (some) modern (state space) control analysis and design methods. the notebooks in cosy_pak follow a typical `control engineering i' course taught at many universities around the world for the junior/senior level undergraduates. there is no fee to use cosy_pak but certain responsibilities are expected of the user (see copyright notice in the readme file included below). for starters e-mail / fax / mail (post) the registration form included in the readme file. cosy_pak is available via `anonymous ftp' from mishna.esys.cwru.edu (internet no : 129.22.40.23) in the /pub directory. p.s.: a typical ftp session in unix is given after the readme file. ==> future releases if you would like to receive updates and newer versions of cosy_pak please send e-mail/fax/mail to the address below. in addition, your comments and suggestions are appreciated and are invaluable to us. we will do our best to fix any reported bugs. however, we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of. we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e-mail / us mail / telephone / fax. this will help us to release bug-free versions in the future. comments are welcome. n. sreenath systems engineering department case school of engineering case western reserve university e-mail: sree@mishna.cwru.edu u.s. mail: prof. n. sreenath tel.: (216) 368-6219 systems engg., crawford hall fax: (216) 368-3123 case western reserve univ. cleveland oh 44106-7070 ========================= begin readme file ========================= (no user fee release) (a symbolic control systems analysis package) version 0.9 mathematica version 2.0 or higher c.k.chen n. sreenath systems engineering case school of engineering case western reserve university cleveland, oh, 44106-7070 e-mail: sree@mishna.cwru.edu --> copyright :copyright: copyright 1992 by c. k. chen and n. sreenath, case western reserve university. permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appear in supporting documentation, and the name of the case western reserve university, case school of engineering not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific, without prior permission. case western reserve university makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose. it is provided "as is" with out express or implied warranty. --> acknowledgements support from cwru information and network services - dr. ray neff, case alumni association, the lilly foundation and the systems engineering department of case western reserve university is gratefully acknowledged. special thanks to brian evans of georgia tech for all the help. --> ftp cosy_pak is available by anonymous `ftp' from mishna.esys.cwru.edu (internet no. 129.22.40.23). a sample ftp session is given at the end of this file. --> changes in version 0.9 (update from v0.81 to v0.9) in this version, we have revised cosy_pak to take advantage of the more robust signal processing functions available in mathematica v2.1. since mathematica 2.1 provides a better and working laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions than mathematica v2.0 did, we adopted them. this has made cosy_pak smaller. thus brian evans' signal processing packages that supported the laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions in the cosy_pak v0.81 are no longer needed directly by cosy_pak v0.9. for power users who use signal processing we still recommend the use of the very fine brian evans package on signal processing (available at the anonymous ftp site gauss.eedsp.gatech.edu or ip # 130.207.226.24). on the downside, the disadvantage of this update can be that mathematica 2.1 requires more runtime resources than its previous version. --> for mathematica 2.0 users we have included the laplacetransform package from mathematica 2.1 in the directory `for_2.0'. please move all files and directory under for_2.0 into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory. --> introduction this is an unsupported release of cosy_pak - a control systems analysis package for symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica 2.1. classical control systems analysis and design methods and some modern control systems methods have been implemented in this package. this package and the attendant notebooks were developed on a next (tm) computer (a unix based workstation). they have been used as a supplementary teaching aid along with standard control engineering texts (ogata [1991], phillips and harbor [1991]) for undergraduate courses in `control engineering i' taught at the systems engineering department of cwru. in addition to the next, they have also been tested successfully on apple macintosh computers (tm), and, ibm pc's (tm) running ms windows(tm). we would be very much interested to hear from you if you or anybody you know uses this software on platforms not mentioned above. ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks first to visualize the graphics. once installed (see below for instructions), this collection of mathematica packages can be loaded by any user. bundled with the packages are many notebooks ("cosy_notes") which demonstrate the functionality of these packages. the notebooks follow a plan of many fine, standard, undergraduate control engineering text books listed in the references. examples used in these notebooks have been collected from the various references given at the end of this file. the contents of the notebooks in the "cosy_notes" directory are given below. ----------- begin "cosy_notes" contents ----------- notebook file name: 01_introduction.ma chapter 1: introduction to control systems sections: poles and zeros forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation with zero-valued initial conditions differential equation with initial conditions notebook file name: 02_math_models.ma chapter 2: mathematical modeling of dynamic systems sections: ode to state space linearization of a nonlinear system of equations state space to transfer function notebook file name: 03_*_transient_response.ma chapter 3: transient-response analysis (chapter split into three sub notebooks because of file size) notebook file name: 03_1_transient_response.ma sections : time response analysis first order system second order system third order and higher order systems notebook file name: 03_2_transient_response.ma sections : first order system (step response vs. time const) notebook file name: 03_3_transient_response.ma sections : second order system (step response vs. damping ratio) notebook file name: 04_steady_state_response.ma chapter 4: steady-state response sections: routh's stability steady-state error analysis notebook file name: 05_root_locus.ma chapter 5: root-locus analysis notebook file name: 06_freq_response.ma chapter 6: frequency-response analysis sections: bode plot analysis magnitude vs. phase plot (nichols plot) polar plot nyquist plot combined example notebook file name: 07_state_space.ma chapter 7: state space methods sections: state transition matrix output controllability pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods ----------- end notebook contents ----------- --> compressed files the files that contain a complete set of the cosy_pak v0.9 packages and notebooks for mathematica are: cosy_pak_09.tar.z compressed tar file for unix systems cosy_pak_09.sit.hqx compressed sit file for macintosh systems and encoded by binhex 4.0 format (requires the shareware stuffit file v 1.5.1 or higher). cosy_pak_ibm_09.zip zip file for the ibm pc running ms-dos once expanded the mathematica files can also be used on macintosh / ibm pc / unix systems also. --> installation of cosy_pak o in unix command line type the following command: zcat cosy_pak_09.tar.z | tar xvf - o in macintosh open the .sit.hqx file using the shareware stuffit v 1.5.1 or higher. o in ibm command line type the following command: pkunzip -o -d cosy_pak_ibm_09.zip note: this .zip file was zipped by zip utility v2.0. you must use pkunzip version 2.0 or higher to unzip it. ibm pc's may limit the directory name characters to eight. in that event type "pkunzip -o -d cosy_pak.zip. you can also unzip the cosy_pak_ibm_09.zip file on any unix machine if you have unzip utility on it. uncompressing and untarring "cosy_pak_09.tar.z" or unzipping "cosy_pak_ibm_09.zip" will create a directory called "cosy_pak". once the files are expanded you should see a single directory "cosy_pak" containing the following three files, four sub-directories and their contents: sub-directories in "cosy_pak": cosypak - contains control tool box packages manual - cosy_pak manual in .ps, .rtf, .txt, and .wn formats. cosy_notes - contains notebooks for_2.0 - contains laplace transform package from mathematica 2.1 for mathematica 2.0 users. files in directory "cosypak": chap1.m chap2.m chap3.m chap4.m chap5.m chap6.m chap7.m files in directory "cosy_notes": 01_introduction.ma 02_math_model.ma 03_1_transient_response.ma 03_2_transient_response.ma 03_3_transient_response.ma 04_steady_state_response.ma 05_root_locus.ma 06_freq_response.ma 07_state_space.ma files in directory "for_2.0": laplacetransform.m diracdelta.m sub-directories in "cosy_pak": common files in directory "common": support.m ********************* important ******************** the notebook example files(.ma files) will be under the "cosy_notes" directory. to use the notebooks, move the directory `cosypak' to directory that mathematica can recognize : /locallibrary/mathematica/packages on a unix machine, my_harddisk:mathematica:packages on an apple macintosh, c:\winmath\packages on an ibm pc. at the beginning of the "initialization" cell of each notebook in "cosy_notes" directory, we list the example about how to make mathematica identify the directory: (* initialization of path *) (* example for a unix machine (default) *) $path=join[$path, {"/locallibrary/mathematica/packages"}]; (* example for an apple macintosh *) $path=join[$path, {"my_harddisk:mathematica:packages"}]; (* example for ibm pc $path=join[$path, {"c:\winmath\packages"}]; change the pathname according to your machine by removing the mathematica comment sign `(*' and `)*' before and after `$path' this command makes mathematica recognize the directory /locallibrary/mathematica/packages on a unix machine my_harddisk:mathematica:packages on a apple macintosh c:\winmath\packages on an ibm pc --> mathematica 2.0 users we include the laplacetransform package from mathematica 2.1 in the directory for_2.0. please move all files and directory under for_2.0 into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory. --> getting started after installation, start mathematica and open the notebooks in the "cosy_notes" directory. all notebooks load their own packages. navigate in the notebooks and enjoy. ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks to visualize the graphics. --> user responsibilities we request you to take a few minutes and fill out the information below and mail it to us by e-mail / fax / u.s. mail. this will help us to keep your abreast of the improvements and release new versions of cosy_pak. suggestions for improvements are welcome. -------------------------------cut here------------------------------- your name: ________________________________________ organization: ________________________________________ title: ________________________________________ e-mail: ________________________________________ postal address:________________________________________ comments & ________________________________________ suggestions: ________________________________________ -------------------------------cut here------------------------------- mail this information to (e-mail / fax / u.s. mail) : internet: sree@mishna.cwru.edu u.s. mail: prof. n. sreenath tel.: (216) 368-6219 systems engg., crawford hall fax: (216) 368-3123 case western reserve univ. cleveland oh 44106-7070 --> report bugs please report bugs and leave comments to the address above. any suggestion for improvements and criticism are welcome. we will do our best to fix any reported bugs. however, we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of. we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e-mail / us mail / telephone / fax. this will help us to release bug-free versions in the future. --> disclaimer and future releases this software is the property of the case western reserve university. use this software at your own risk. we make no express or implied warranty. the packages and the notebooks can also be made to run under mathematica versions 2.0 or lower with modification. we do not guarantee the outcome. --> documentation cosy_pak functions are indexed in the files in the `manual' directory according the chapters. usage is illustrated in notebooks residing in `cosy_notes' directory. if your computer does not support notebooks find a macintosh computer and acquire mathreader which is a public domain notebook reader. mathreader will at least allow you to peruse notebooks but you will not be able to evaluate any code fragments. --> references dorf, r. c., "modern control systems", sixth edition, addison wesley, new york, 1992. fortmann, t. e., and hitz, k. l., "an introduction to linear control systems", marcel dekker, 1977. franklin, g. f., powell, d. j., and emami-naeini, a., "feedback control of dynamic systems", second edition, addison wesley, new york, 1991. kuo, b. c., "automatic control systems", sixth edition, prentice hall, new jersey, 1990. ogata, k., "modern control engineering", second edition, prentice hall, new jersey, 1991. phillips, c. l., and harbor, r. d., "feedback control systems", second edition, prentice hall, new jersey, 1991. ========================= end readme file ========================= typical `ftp' session : %ftp mishna.esys.cwru.edu connected to mishna. 220 mishna ftp server (version 5.20 (next 1.0) sun nov 11, 1990) ready. name (mishna.esys.cwru.edu:sree): anonymous password: ftp> cd /pub ftp> binary ftp> ls 200 port command successful. 150 opening ascii mode data connection for file list. cosy_pak_09.tar.z cosy_pak_ibm_09.zip places.wmd 226 transfer complete. 78 bytes received in 0 seconds (15.35 kbytes/s) ftp> get cosy_pak_09.tar.z 200 port command successful. 150 opening binary mode data connection for cosy_pak_09.tar.z (460822 bytes). 226 transfer complete. local: cosy_pak_09.tar.z remote: cosy_pak_09.tar.z 460822 bytes received in 1.33 seconds (3.38e+02 kbytes/s) ftp> quit 221 goodbye. 
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 i've got an old super vga card manufactured by sampo of taiwan and i'm looking for a windows 3.1 driver for it. it's based on the cirrus logic cl-gd510a-32pc-b chip. i've contacted the suppliers here in new zealand and they say that only windows 2 divers were ever written by the manufacturer. so if there's a v3.1 driver out for this chip set i'd like to know - preferably by e-mail at rjwjames@waikato.ac.nz thanks is advance ross james 
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 as the title says...does anyone know of a text editor (like notepad) that can handle large text files?....thanx for any and all help! | james burke | by reading this you agree not to hold | | | the writer responsible for any evil | | jburke@abacus.bates.edu | happening that may befall you at any time. | 
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 even so, my point still stands to an extent [...] that 64k limits appear all over the place where they really are not necessary, such as the edit control while the 64k limit may not be _necessary_ limitation, they probably fall within the category of 'reasonable' limitations. if you find yourself trying to allocate an edit control for more than 64k of text, it's probably time take a good look at your program's design. why is there such a small limit to the number of global memory handles allowed? in what way is 8192 a 'small' number? it seems to me that you'd hit the wall in many other ways before you'd hit the systemwide limit on global handles, unless, of course, you're abusing globalalloc. and _please_ don't try to tell me that it's impossible to abuse the resources available under other operating systems. all systems have limits. the question is whether or not the limits are _reasonable_. so far, you haven't offered a single argument which suggests that windows' limits are any less reasonable than limits in other systems. rick schaut uucp:...{uunet | uw-beaver}!microsoft!richs microsoft doesn't speak for me, and i don't speak for microsoft. 
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 is there a way to use the mouse when running a dos app (windowed) in win 3.1? when you window a dos apps (in enhanced mode), i can see where the mouse cursor was, but it doesn't work! any help would be greatly appreciated. thank you hansang bae hbae@cwis.unomaha.edu 
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 i would like to find a windows 3.x driver for a video board that is based on the chips & technologies chipset. the actual board is a scorpion framegrabber made by univision. it is based on the c&t chipset, but only barely supports the graphics mode. i am hoping that any c&t driver could be used in the 640x480x256 mode. stephen corbesero systems manager and adjucnt lecturer 19 memorial drive west corbesero@eecs.lehigh.edu eecs dept, lehigh university sgc0@lehigh.edu bethlehem, pa 18015 voice: 215/758-5001 fax: 215/758-6279 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10613">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10613" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i know for a fact that the only reason many companies wrote os/2 apps was because ibm paid them for it. i'd write an app for the ti 99/4a if ti paid me in advance to do it. ibm can only pay so many people for so many apps. once that stops, so does the development. software companies don;t stay in business writing apps that won't generate revenue. the fact that ibm was paying them for it allowed them to do it and stay in business. how many apps are *selling*? ask wordperfect, borland, lotus, how much revenue they are getting from *sales* and if they plan on writing *more* apps. you may be suprised by the answer. i won't. i would get into microsoft practices, but the thread would go on for every. you do have an interesting point, that i won't dispute now. but, pray tell, if you "know for a fact" anything, why don't you provided some insight into your source? do you think that will accept it for fact. maybe i would if you gave your word, even. if he says he knows for a fact, what more do you have to gain if he gives his word? do you think he's lying right now? but c'mon-it would appear that you are employed by the competition,you should expect to asked about your sources and just give them up front or not make the claim. brett d. sherron-ferrell email@bferrell@uceng.uc.edu anyway, how about this: i give you my word, without naming sources, that ibm paid companies to write applications for os/2. satisfied? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10614">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10614" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a problem with the wallpaper on my desktop, in 1024x768x256 mode. for bitmap files bigger than about 512k (slightly less sometimes depending on the exact dimensions), the wallpaper display is badly corrupted. the rest of the desktop is fine. for wallpaper bitmaps smaller than this, i have no problem. i have a friend who has an 800k bitmap which he has no problems with, so it is possible. it is also possible to display these bitmaps using cshow in 1024x768x256 mode with no problem, so the video card is not at fault. how can i remedy this? my system: 386dx40, 4mb ram. dos 6.0, windows 3.1. oak 1mb 077 video card, 1024x768x256 mode, using supplied drivers. windows has a permanent 11,288kb swap file. please reply via e-mail, and _use the address in my .sig_, as our post software always seems to mangle the address in the header. richard mazzaferri ph.d. student uni. of newcastle ph (049) 216254 mazz@faceng.newcastle.edu.au australia. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10618">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10618" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am working with 24 bit rgb bmp files and need to comvert these to 15 and 16 bit images. how do convert 24 bit images to 15 and 16 bit rgb images? thanks! 
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<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10619" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi: on the 1024x768x256 mode, the font sizes of window menu, help window are very small. can i change the font and font size for these windows? my computer is 80486 dx-33, the video card is ati d24. could some experts please email the answer to grzheng@vax2.concondia.ca. thanks in advance. guo rong zhehg concordia univ. montreal, canada 
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 this has gone on too long people! get a life. if you haven't converted anyone to your way of thinking yet you probably will not convert anyone. just let this subject die a quiet, though painfull death. if this keeps up i'll start believing the self righteousness should be capital offense. you'll have to kill off half the net. maybe that isn't such a bad idea... pete gontier // ec technology // gurgle@netcom.com 
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 one can only remap special-command keys in procomm it seems. i would like to remap other keys too - especially "altgr 2", and such combinations. anybody know a plain or dirty way to do this?? (of cause most people settle for remapping function keys, but i don't see why there should be a limitation...) yours, mattias 
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 we are searching for one or two instructors for tutorials on advanced windows programming under nt. if anyone has attended a course that was very good, we would really appreciate recommendations. please email me directly at paller@fedunix.org; i don't get to see these newsgroups often enough. thanks in advance for any help. alan paller tutorials director 
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 => : subject: line says it all. i looked and looked, but came up empty-handed. => are you a pervert ??? you are pervert.. ok vi is not cua but it has a powerful set of commands. one for all it has 26 separate clipboard (and not only one ofor all kind of data like windows does). the only problem is to know the commands (the keyboard shortcut). i am quite fast with the pc keyboard... and i usually use all fingers to digit so when i use a editor i do not want to leave the keyboard and use the mouse every time i need a special function on the menu or to use the arrow keys that are away from the usual position of my hands on the keyboard...... in my situation vi is very powerful and i'm searching to a vi editor for windows.... p.s. sorry for the bad english.... 
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 i am setting up my dos/unix box on a 116m ide and a 412m scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the (ms-dos 5.0) join command. i like the way it sets things up since i won't have to stick with the c: d: & e: (crap) that dos enforces. i like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems. i have heard that there were problems with using it, or at least under older versions of dos. please tell! leopard@hyperion.com i don't work for hyperion, i just live here... --steeven m. vawter telephone: (408) 737-7932 svawter@raynet.com work: (415) 324-7256 unix sys admin 
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 i solved my problem. i still do not understand why it happens ths way; perhaps some of you c++ gurus can explain this to all of us! for some reason when i define the following functins in the class definition (in the .h file) the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined. when i placed these two in a separate source file and compiled them, the problem went away. any ideas what happen? are the functions that are defined in the class construct all inline ? is this the problem? virtual int isequal (const object _far &obj) const { return this == &(hashentry&) obj; } virtual void printon( rostream os) const os << "[ hwindow is " << (void _far *) hwindow << " ]\n"; - bowden wise computer science dept, rensselaer polytechnic inst, troy, ny 12180 internet: wiseb@cs.rpi.edu 
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 hiyas all, upon getting animated desktop for windows as a gift from my boyfriend, i couldn't wait to install it. i had gotten an advertisement for it and put it aside with my list of 'i wants.' after installing the software, it didn't load. no part of the software would load even though the install went seemingly well. i called deltapoint with the problem and after asking me twenty million different questions about my system.. concluded that i had one of systems that the software was 'incompatible with'. of course they're willing to give me my $$$ back.. what a waste of time and energy. the folks on their support line, although nice, are extremely ignorant regarding the workings windows 3.1. after my experience with the installation of the sb 16, i learned some of the function of windows dll files. before sending back desktop animator, decided to do some fooling around with the different versions of .dll files i had. i had 2 versions of cpalette.dll one dated 8/92 and > 100k the other dated 1/93 and smaller (the 1/93 smaller version was the one supplied with desktop animator). i moved the bigger, older version of cpalette.dll to a directory outside my path. (for some reason, i had the older cpalette.dll in my windows directory and the newer cpallette in my windows\system directory.) when i did this, the animator's editor loaded.. and so did 2 other of the applications in the package.. the main application still didn't load. does anyone have any ideas as to why this would occur or any further suggestions for trouble-shooting? / \__ darla \ \_______| \ .:|> portal: darla@shell.portal.com \ ##| | \__/ darla@cup.portal.com | ####\__/ \ aol: kuby2u@aol.com / / ## \| darlaiam@aol.com / /__________\ \ wix: darla |genie: kuby l_jj \__jj 
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 on a recently acquired gateway 2000 machine, when starting windows, three copyright statements flash on the screen right after the ms logo disappears and before programmanager takes over. this does not happen on any other of our machines, and i am wondering whether this is a feature or whether this is related to several problems we are having with the machine. the system is a gateway 2000, 4dx-33 machine. the messages that appear are: (c) copyright 1989-1992 western digital corporation all rights reserved (c) copyright 1985-1992 congruent corporation all rights reserved (c) copyright 1985-1992 microsoft corporation all rights reserved the autoexec.bat file looks like this: @echo off prompt $p$g set mouse=c:\msmouse c:\msmouse\mouse path=c:\;c:\dos;c:\windows;c:\123;c:\wp51;f:\apps;f:\system;f:\winapps;f:\public set temp=c:\windows\temp lh wd8003e -n 0x62 5 0x280 0xd000 lh winpkt 0x60 0x62 lh ipx lh netx f:\login\login win : the config.sys file looks like this: device=c:\windows\himem.sys dos=high,umb device=c:\windows\emm386.exe noems x=d000-d1ff stacks=9,256 files=50 buffers=30 shell=c:\dos\command.com /p /e:1024 does anyone know what is going on? any help would be much department of urban and regional planning | e-mail: varkki@uiuc.edu university of illinois at urbana-champaign | tel: 217.244.7059 
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 anyway, how about this: i give you my word, without naming sources, that ibm paid companies to write applications for os/2. satisfied? doesn't ms do the same? (i.e., subsidize app development) i seem to remember someone at rpi who received an entire (expensive, to run nt) machine to develop for nt. free. and that's just the small fry... 
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 try using laser printer/copier paper, it works quite well and is cheaper than hpspecial paper. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<thomas a. smith ii>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> youngstown state university chemistry dept. ad960@yfn.ysu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10662">
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 it certainly smacks of that! remember the "poll" that you quoted saying that you had seen a 95% of users being satisfied with dos 6.0? care to recall how unbiased the sample set was? that post sure looked like fud....and coming from a microsoftie .... well, it sure seemed like something was not on level. it came from a reseller survey. i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users, i double-checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys. one of randomly selected resellers, one of randomly selected users from the 6 upgrade registered user database. both surveys showed a 93% positive #include <stdisclaimer> // jenk@microsoft.com // msdos testing 
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 is there a hot-key for the windows 3.1 screen saver utility? if not, is there an easy way to create one? the reason that i need one is that my dad's company is anal retentive about leaving a computer while the information can be accessed so the employees are not allowed to walk away from the computer until the screen saver kicks in (as if that is terribly secure). also, the system manager won't let any software be added so another program such as lock32.zip from cica or a different screen saver is out. thanks for any and all help. chris putnam (still a blue devils lover at heart) euphonium/baritone star in '93??? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10664">
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 i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users, i double-checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys. one of randomly selected resellers, one of randomly selected users from the 6 upgrade registered user database. both surveys showed a 93% positive #include <stdisclaimer> // jenk@microsoft.com // msdos testing which translates to 7% not satisfied. i don't think it's the awkward recursive deletion that's bugging people, it certainly isn't the nice windows interfaces for new dos accessories (cpav, defrager, undelete). as far as i've noticed, it's doublespace crashes. frankly, the fairly high rates of doublespace crashes i've heard of surprises me! i figured that since the os is presumably aware of doublespace, it is less likely to crash (unlike stacker, which fools the os... but do is gullible anyway :). dos 6 _is_ aware of doublespace isn't it? anyway, good job on dos 5, and dos 6 is good for new users. just beware the doublespace! rmohns@vax.clarku.edu | rob mohns | annoy rush limbaugh. think for yourself. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10673">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10673" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 for the most part, this newsgroup is "attack" oriented. microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products, the intelligence of our people, the integrity of our business, etc. anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked. we are human beings as well. you should expect a response when a claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled. ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification. just keep doing the great job you have done in the past. thx dave l 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10674">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10674" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 help! i am trying to find software that will allow com port redirection under windows for workgroups. can anyone out there make a suggestion or reccommend something. i would really hate to have to write some driver for the serial port that would support the network, but that is my next step. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10675">
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 does anyone know if there is such an animal. i have a mouse systems trackball and would like a driver for this device that would allow me to use the mouse within a dos window the same way microsoft's mouse driver works. chris shenefiel: who does not represent his company in any way, shape or form on this forum. nor do his opinions or comments represent the opinions of his company. nor do his opinions or comments even merit consideration of any kind. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10685">
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 found there were actually two surveys. one of randomly selected resellers, one of randomly selected users from the 6 upgrade registered user database. both surveys showed a 93% positive if jd power and associates did the survey, i would like an anonymous ftp site to pick it up at. only a sucker believes an ms released survey results about an ms product. ok--assume that the results of the survey, whatever they are, are 100% honest. if the results indicated extreme dissatisfaction with the product, is ms going to tell us to stop buying ms-dos 6.0 because it sux? :-) sure.... *** would it not be fair to say that the relatively few people who have decided to purchase 6 would be inclined to like it. just as those of us who love os/2, most of the people who but them know (more or less) what to expect and are not disappointed. i mean, it is nice to know that the people who bought it are happy (and important for ms to know) and i don't dispute the accuracy. i just would hate to see people extrapolate from that population that dos 6 is the next computer revolution. well, these "statistics" are to shut people up and add some microscopic weight to ms' arguments. as i just said, you have seen what automakers do. who is going to believe chrysler if they tell us, "in a 'random' chrysler-conducted survey..." my theory about certain people is that they are convinced that if a point is maintained long enough, it is true. after all, what is the focus of this company? information. money and information. technology is, for some, an expedient toward these ends. why did bill gates drop out of college? was it because he couldn't afford it at the time? was it because (as the wsj says) he couldn't wait to use what he knew to go out and make money? bill gate's answer to this question would be highly interesting. i await it. i can't stomach bill declaring himself a visionary and using every available opportunity to build up the cult around himself and then having ms sell dos and windoze as their main stays. |kenton+@cmu.edu | os/2 fixes broken windows | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10692">
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 you're missing the main point of capitalism in the first place! competition breeds excellence. yes, where commodities are concerned. imagining that capitalist theorists had software in mind when they wrote their grand treatises on "the main point of capitalism" is non-productive. pete gontier // ec technology // gurgle@netcom.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10693">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10693" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 recently i noticed there is a directory named "diskimage" in my disk. i didn't notice it before and i wonder if while installing an application an image of the disk was created, or if win3.1 automatically created a backup of its files. i couldn't find any documentation on the diskimage utility; having an image of the disk is taking *a lot* of disk space. does anybody know if this is just something the people who installed win3.1 did or it is a backup mechanism? anibal mayorga | 21 wenark dr #7 | w: (302) 831-8704 mayorga@cis.udel.edu | newark, de 19713 | h: (302) 453-0309 
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 i'd like to appeal to the net's nt wizards for a bit of advice. first a general description of the machine as follows: motherboard: utron 33 mhz opti chipset, 20 meg memory, 256kb cache (soon i hope to drop a dx2 chip into it) fahrenheit 1280 video (1 meg, 1024x768x256) proaudio spectrum 16 sound board primary disk = connor cp30174 on a caching ide controller secondary disk = conner cp30174 as slave on same controller tertiary disk = fujitsu ??? 650 meg on superstore esdi controller planned future disks include scsi hd and cd rom on pas16 scsi port tape drive is a colorado jumbo 250 on the floppy controller future tape drive may be a dat on the scsi interface. other hardware includes modem/fax, serial ports, and a teletext board (ugly dos software drives the latter) applications used include normal windows stuff (excel, word, quicken and turbo pascal/windows) but the important stuff is my audio work environment which includes turtle beach wave for windows, mcs stereo, and other misc stuff for dinking around with audio files. also i use stacker on the primary drive, hp newwave (for my wife's use, and she won't let me get rid of it!), and a product called infinite disk from chili pepper software for hierarchical storage management of my seldom used offline files. i plan to upgrade to nt, when it becomes a released product. i was stongly tempted to become a beta user early on, but i don't have time to mess around with the hassles of beta software. i expect to buy it, tear off the shrink wrap, and use it without hassle (i know, unrealistic, but i can hope can't i, after all, i have work to do). the advice i want concerns the state of nt regarding device drivers, and hardware specific stuff in general. how smoothly can i expect the upgrade to go? can i expect support for all my stuff, or do i still need to scramble around downloading drivers (pas?, orchid?, colorado?) from some bbs, etc. what steps should i take to ensure the installation goes smoothly. note that i want to nuke dos totally from the system. i'm allergic to command lines! i plan to run a "pure" nt system. also, will nt communicate with the workgroups lan? what about stacker? i currently have stacker on the first disk drive. without stacker, and the infinite disk product, i will have great difficulty fitting everything i have on the system (it's cramped now). i realize stacker will be incompatible with nt, but will there be an nt version? or will nt support compression a la dos 6? i know infinite disk will be incompatible with nt, but will they offer (or does anybody else) a comparable product for nt and at what cost? (perhaps i need to ask chili pepper that question) i can live without id if i have to, but i'd rather not. will nt run my dos apps (the teletext board mainly) without dos on the system? what do i need to keep around? any feedback or advice (including "forget nt" with good reasons) is much appreciated. my only significant reason for moving to nt is i need a better multitasking environment than windows (among other reasons, wave locks up the machine for hours and hours doing dsp processing on large audio files), and i want better lan support than i now have (internet access, etc). maybe there are better solutions than nt and if so, i would appreciate hearing about them (os/2? what's it's status these days?) pls respond by email and if there is interest i'll summarize for the net. nathan gregory p00211@psilink.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10695">
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 i would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl-alt-del from within windows. i know there must be a way to do it. could anyone point me in the right direction? thanks in advance, mike glynn are you sure you want to do that? if a win app locks up for some reason, ctrl-alt-del may be the only way to kill the app and get back to windows. granted it doesn't work all that often but it has come in handy on occasion. i consider it pretty carefully before i disabled that keystroke. just a | "if you'd like to talk for hours . . just go ahead now" | | - the spin doctors | | dominic drohan electronic data systems (eds) | | email: drohand@cad.gmeds.com | | note: the views and opinions expressed herein are mine, | | and do not reflect those of eds | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10697">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10697" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 my original post: i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse.com 8.00 (was using 8.20 i think, but switched to 8.00 to see if it was any better). vertical motion is nice and smooth, but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can't click on something because my mouse jumps around. i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit, then jump to the right, then move smoothly for a bit then jump again (maybe this time to the left about .5 inch!). this is crazy! i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before. anyone have any solutions? aha, i think i found the problem and it isn't dirt! another guy here was using a different kind of mouse and was using 640x400x16 video driver (the default vga for windows). he has an s3 localbus card like i do and when i loaded the s3 video driver in windows for him, his mouse became jumpy too. seems like it is the s3 driver! is there any newer one than version 1.4 that would solve this problem? it is really bad. i have to use the keyboard instead sometimes! the s3-w31.zip on cica is version 1.4 (which is the same version that came with my card). sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d-406 hfac brigham young university provo, ut 84602 (801)378-3292 hfac_csr@byu.edu ecktons@ucs.byu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10723">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10723" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 files=30 buffers=30 device=c:\windows\himem.sys device=c:\windows\smartdrv.exe /double_buffer stacks=9,256 and also my autoexec.bat c:\vshield c:\windows\smartdrv.exe /l rem ***************** mouseware 5.0 setup ****************** path=c:\;c:\dos;c:\windows;c:\fax;c:\mouse;c:\wp51\; set temp=c:\windows\temp mouse ser 2 rem ******************************************************** c:\dos\share have you seen this problem before? please help me out... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10724">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10724" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'm told that i can replace the colorful windows logo that appears as windows invokes with a graphic of my choosing. the challange is that the image must be in 'rle' format. i've got gif's, pic's, jpg's, tif's, etc... everything but rle's! what's the best route to converting these things? what program should i download, and from where? has anybody else done this, and do you have the steps available? thanks. e-mail to ivory@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com or ivory@tower.com would be prefered. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10725">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10725" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i've recently uploaded to cica the current (v2.8) version of the working model of microcal origin, a scientific and technical 2d/3d graphics and data analysis package for windows 3.x. the working model is 2d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies, but is largely identical to the full version. saving origin files is disabled, but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin. it also says it has an expiration date of sept. 1, 1993. try it. you may like it, as i do! it's currently in /pub/pc/win3/uploads as origin.zip. <include std disclaimer> | tom carter | carter@photon.cem.msu.edu | | michigan state university | carter@msucem.bitnet | | chemistry department | | 
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 in article <2946372331.3.p00211@psilink.com> ""nathan gregory" <p00211@psilink.com>" says: i'd like to appeal to the net's nt wizards for a bit of advice. this sounds like a good question, the hardware is specific to him, but in general please respond to him via news and not e-mail. there probably are alot of people wanting to read the replies, including myself. packard@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10729">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10729" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 less than 1/2 of mailorder price! i have three libraries, all on cd, which cost me over two thousand dollars mail order. they are all genuine, high quality eps vector graphics (not just some scans with a silly eps wrapper!) they are: 1. totem graphics color eps library (about 1400 color eps images). this costs a thousand bucks mailorder. i rate this clip art as high quality (much better than dynamic graphics clip art, sotmc clip art, etc., in my opinion), but i rate both the 3g library and the c.a.r. library as higher. totem's art is all color -- whereas most of the other's are b&w. it's the best all-color library out there, in my opinion. 2. c.a.r. graphics library (haven't counted how many images, but you can purchase the library on 48 floppies, to give you an idea of the size). this costs about 4 hundred bucks mailorder. i rate this clip art as very high quality, but it's only b&w. 3. 3g graphics library (very popular in all the mac mags). this costs about 4 hundred bucks mailorder. i rate this clip art as very high quality (got some awards in one of the major mac mags, forgot which). some of the images are color, but most are b&w. for what it's worth, all three of the cd's are saved in multiple file formats. they are readable on mac's and pc's. additionally, totem's will mount native- next also, although the next could just as easily mount either the mac or pc filesystems. i've personally tested the cd's on all three machines (i've owned all three machines, although i sold my next a few months ago). also, in my opinion, the 3g and c.a.r. libraries are the best in the business (and i've seen lots). also, totem's is, in my opinion, the best all-color library around, although i like 3g's color art better. i want $850 for everything. can ship certified check c.o.d., as well as visa/mc charge. if you pay by visa/mc, i'll ship pre-paid in the continental u.s. if i ship c.o.d., buyer pays freight and c.o.d. fee. reason for selling: no longer have dtp business. please respond via email or telephone, as i rarely check these news groups. email: npratt@glacier.sim.es.com voice: (h) 265-8949 (w) 582-5847 x6420 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10732">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10732" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : >is3does anyone know whether or not it is possible to have 2 monitors working : >is3with microsoft windows 3.1? i have a taxan multi vision 550 and a nec : this may work when using a vga and a hercules card in one system, but : using two vga-cards in one system will never work. i believe that two 8514 (8514/a?) may be used in tandem on one system. this is the one exception to the vga+mono dual monitor combo that i have heard about. has anybody done this? --jim mc. ------ james d. mcnamara, member of technical staff, tasc ------- 55 walkers brook drive | reading, ma 01867-3238 | 617-942-2000x2948 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10734">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10734" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 can someone point me in the direction of this file. thanks. should come with visual basic. new version is vbrun200.dll. thx dave l 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10735">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10735" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : 09.05.93, 14:48 : hi out there ! : is there anybody who can write me how to add icons to the iconlist (which : is build-into) of progman.exe ? : i'm grateful for every clue ! : thanx and have a nice day ! one way is to use a program called iconmaster. it's shareware and if you can't get it mail me, and i'll post it to you. | matthew simpkin | kingston university | "a primitive race, you too | | cs_e373@kingston.ac.uk | computer science | shall be asimilated ..." | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10741">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10741" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 this is the part that usually gets me. while i am set to make money, there usually are other things to be considered and debated. that is the purpose of life. like it or not stock prices and sales of a particular product are measures of success. they can be measures of short term or long term success. i think in ms case they are a good measure of their long term success. the original post mentioned how it seems on this group that there are a large number of people attacking ms and not willing to accept anything positive about ms. i was trying to make a point that the attacks are over emphasized and to look at the sales of ms products they definitely tell a different story. i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical. look around in the real world people don't want to grep and auck and ls -l they just want to push the buttons and get their job done on a reasonably priced piece of hardware that does not need a computer smart guy to load configure etc etc. like it or not ms and the multitudes of business applications that exist to run under windows does this and does it well. we are running 150 pc's loaded with a complete suite of mostly ms windows applications in an administrative business function on a novell network running all software off the server. it does the job quite well and if we had it to do over again we would pick windows again. again i repeat to ms keep doing what you are doing. you are doing a great flame on thx dave l 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10765">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10765" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 after hearing endless debate (read: name-calling) over which os is better, dos and windows or os/2 and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems, i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test, as so many fellow newsposters have suggested. i have, however, no desire whatsoever to use a version of os/2 which wont really do what it says (i.e. run windows apps) os/2 2.0-2.1 will not run windows apps in 386 enhansed mode, something that most larger windows apps require, but os/2 2.2, which is supposed to be in beta test, is supposed to. i have heard that os/2 2.2 beta is available via ftp, and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy. i would appreciate any information, as i would like, once and for all, to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs. ->robbie<- z_shererrg.sfasu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10766">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10766" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi. one of my coworkers is having a very odd problem. his mouse works fine in dos applications, if you load them from the c: prompt. under windows, the mouse pointer is present, but does not move. even if you load a dos app under windows, the mouse doesn't work. the computer is a zeos 386sx-20 w/diamond speedstar vga running ms dos 5.0 and windows 3.1. mouse driver is microsoft's 8.2. i've tried switching the mouse from com1 to com2, i've tried a different mouse, i've reinstalled mouse.drv, and i can't get the blamed thing to work. the only difference between his system and mine (where the mouse works perfectly) is that he has an expansion card with an additional parallel and serial port. could that cause the problem? thanks in advance for any help. carl fink carlf@panix.com c.fink4 (genie) "if you can't laugh at yourself, then you can bet that everyone else is doing so." - ed johnston 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10767">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10767" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 well, renaming screensavers (.scr) to .exe, and running them, as has been pposted, (i haven't tried changing win.ini , but should have same effect) shows me the "setup" dialog. box, butdoesn't enable the saver. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10769">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10769" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am running windows 3.1 in 386 enhanced mode. the sound card i have is the ati stereo f/x-cd sound card which claims adlib and soundblaster using windows mediaplayer, i can play the midi files that came with my sound card. however, i can't play any of the midi files that belong to the winjammer midi editor that i ftp'd from cica. i also can't play any midi files i generate with muzika (also from cica). when i try to play the files, a dialog box pops up saying that the music may not play right, and it has a checkbox asking me if i wish to disable this message in the future. is this normal, or do i have something set wrong? i would really like to be able to write music on muzika and have my computer play it. i also ftp'd the game dare2dream for windows (from cica) and its music won't play either - i get the same dialog box. the midi mappers that i have are ati ext midi, ati opl3 midi, and vanilla. i have tried using all three. any help, suggestions, shoulders to cry on, etc. would be appreciated very much. john p. john punshon | punshon@cs.usask.ca| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10770">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10770" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 in win 3.1, one may assign hot-keys for the program items within the program manager. how about the program manager itself? is there one already, or is there some way to assign one? -- ake ake knutsson email: knut@tts.lth.se dept. of communication systems ..!uunet!tts.lth.se!knut lund institute of technology, sweden fax: +46 46 145823 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10771">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10771" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 let me pose a question: how many ms-dos users are out there who have no access to the net, but would probably find this feature useful, too? ie., your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos. or did i misunderstand your shareware is available from the net, magazines, distributors, clubs, friends, and bulletin boards. i don't think people have any problems getting hold of it. fill gaps in dos? there's no need for many people - dos 5 provides more services than i need as it is. i just run windows on top of it. btw, my windows must be an operating system - it provides a disk operating system that dos can't access. (nfs...) :-) thomas beagle | thomas@datamark.co.nz work: 64 4 233 8186 __o technical writer | thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz home: 64 4 499 3832 _-\<, wellington, nz | long ears make good handles. (_)/(_) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10780">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10780" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 [ lots of stuff deleted because i felt like it ] this ms bashing has definitely lost all its humor value. i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet, and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know. and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors. while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup, they can not do much with their command line. so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality. ms has made their life easier, and more productive and to them that is quality. they do not care about what innovative things ms has done, other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier. you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception. face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users. we here on the net are not mainstream computer users. disclaimer: the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr. | brian, ws1s (st/tt user/developer) | if i wanted a computer to play games | | bell northern research | on i'd buy an amiga. however i have | | research triangle park, nc | real work to do. so please get lost! | |____________________________________|_______________________________________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10783">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10783" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 after hearing endless debate (read: name-calling) over which os is better, dos and windows or os/2 and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems, i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test, as so many fellow newsposters have suggested. i have, however, no desire whatsoever to use a version of os/2 which wont really do what it says (i.e. run windows apps) os/2 2.0-2.1 will not run windows apps in 386 enhansed mode, something that most larger windows apps require, but os/2 2.2, which is supposed to be in beta test, is supposed to. i have heard that os/2 2.2 beta is available via ftp, and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy. i would appreciate any information, as i would like, once and for all, to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs. i don't think the question is: "will os/2 x.x run windows y.y apps now?" a more important question is: "will subsequent os/2 versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future?" can it keep up? will a future os/2 3.0 run windows 4 apps? ole2 is very complex and is the sign of things to come. after this fall, i believe ibm no longer has any rights to view microsoft code. after that, the only way to maintain some sort of compatibility is to reverse-engineer. would you want to reverse-engineer an ole2 application? john a. grant jagrant@emr1.emr.ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada, ottawa 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10784">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10784" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 still after the impact of all the ito's at ibm, all that's left of its employee base are the deadbeats! i suspect we'll see 2.1 about 1st quarter boy are you going to look silly in a couple of weeks. brett d. sherron-ferrell email@bferrell@uceng.uc.edu u. of cincy "catch the cats............ college of engineering ...............if you can" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10785">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10785" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi, can anyone tell me what microsoft bbs number is ? i tried the one that is given on the dos 6 upgrade manual but that number never answered the call ... thanks, please email. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10786">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10786" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 -- setup deleted... finally, in order to run _your_ specific version of windows, you must simply change the path to include c:\winmastr *and* your specific configuration path, e.g. c:\winwife. you could get fancy and use batch files, environment variables, or a menuing system to do this. --- other stuff delete... if you happen to be running the new msdos 6, you could use multi- setup to provide a menu with a menu choice for each person using the machine ... power up, select your name, the menu will use your personal sections of config.sys and autoexec.bat thus setting up the path, then running your windows copy! excellent suggestion, ron. and as a further comment on dos 6, if you decide to install windows standalone configuration completely, in more than 1 directory on your hard drive, and use dos 6 to jump to a specific copy for each user, you could be saving yourself many megs of disk space if you use the setup /n and /a technique!! peter goudswaard _________ _________ goudswaa@sfu.ca (preferred) | | __/^\__ | | pgoudswa@cln.etc.bc.ca | | \ / | | pgoudswa@cue.bc.ca | | _/\_\ /_/\_ | | "there's no gift like the present" | >_________< | | - goudswaard's observation |_________| | |_________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10791">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10791" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 after hearing endless debate (read: name-calling) over which os is better, dos and windows or os/2 and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems, i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test, as so many fellow newsposters have suggested. i have, however, no desire whatsoever to use a version of os/2 which wont really do what it says (i.e. run windows apps) os/2 2.0-2.1 will not run windows apps in 386 enhansed mode, something that most larger windows apps require, but os/2 2.2, which is supposed to be in beta test, is supposed to. i have heard that os/2 2.2 beta is available via ftp, and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy. i would appreciate any information, as i would like, once and for all, to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs. ->robbie<- z_shererrg.sfasu.edu if you wait until may the 18th you will be able to buy the new os/2 2.1 since it will be released at comdex that day. it will run windows 3.1 apps and windows enh. mode. if you can't wait, then you can ftp a 6 months old beta version from ftp-os2.nmsu.edu, but this version is probably a lot slower than the final product. when you do your test, please have in mind that a single tasking system will always be faster at doing one task. the real power of os2 lies in the multitasking and can't really be measured by a stopwatch. happy benchmarking. the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last 1000 years - no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10792">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10792" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i don't think the question is: "will os/2 x.x run windows y.y apps now?" a more important question is: "will subsequent os/2 versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future?" john a. grant jagrant@emr1.emr.ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada, ottawa but the most important question is: "will there be any os2 apps, so we don't have to load windows in the future?" and maybe the question of the future will be: "will windows x.1 run os2 y.y apps now?" regards hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last 1000 years - no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10794">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10794" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to absolute memory locations in windows, ie. hardware that is memory mapped at very high addresses 16mb++ and above? please reply by email 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10796">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10796" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical. look around in the real world people don't want to grep and auck and ls -l they just want to push the buttons and get their you mean grep (unix is case dependent) and awk (where did you get auck from?) mark ;-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10798">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10798" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 well, i do alot of graphic design work, and i am remaining loyal to dos/windows instead of macs. my college isn't, though, and i can only scan images on macintosh. does anyone know of a program that can read mac disks. the "apple file exchange" on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session. i want to do the transfer in windows instead. macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck c.j. callison@whale.st.usm.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10799">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10799" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 haven't we wasted enough bandwidth on this silly discussion already!! [please no flames -- let sanity prevail] richard maclennan 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10800">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10800" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck i just tried it, but i can't say that it works, 'cause it doesn't read 800k disks, it only reads 1.44mb. if there a program that does read 800k disks, please let me know. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10801">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10801" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet, and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know. and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors. while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup, they can not do much with their command line. you can't customize a command line interface? where have you been? i can change the prompt, i can make aliases (so someone like me who is used to say, ls, can type it on my dos machine and still get a directory listing), and under unix, if i don't like the command line interface, i throw it out and get a different one. (csh, bash, ksh, sh, etc...) so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality. ms has made their life easier, and more productive and to them that is quality. they do not care about what innovative things ms has done, other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier. you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception. this is true. face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users. we here on the net are not mainstream computer users. a decent gui for all variations of unix? lessee... what about motif? or the stuff from mit? (twm comes to mind...) those are pretty standard. heck, an xwindows program runs like it likes to -- all the end user has to really know is how to manipulate the actual windows with the mouse, and since it is a gui, it's *graphical* and a bit easier to figure out. (something the windows people have been pressing down our throats for some time now...) the thing i fear is that there will be a gap between the normal users running windows (all flavors) and the other "power" users running unix and other more advanced oses. at least right now, dos is still pretty much king. i can bring a copy of my latest whiz-bang programming demo over to my friends house, and since we both run dos, he can enjoy it agrier@gompers.gompers.edu or tfinn@crash.cts.com (preferred) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10805">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10805" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am running windows 3.1 on a 386sx-16 mhz with five megs of memory. the motherboard came with one meg, and i added the four megs this past weekend. they were 1x9 70 simms. i had installed in the application menu ms-dos command park. up till today, it parked the disk from the application menu without any problem. when attempting to park the heads today, i received the following message: stop this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be what does this message mean? david de trolio (detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu) we in the united states can have increased revenue without punishing or penalizing those who have obtained personal and economic achievements. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10806">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10806" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have been using winqvt/net 2.81 under win3.1 (dos 5.0) for quite sometime without any problem. i recently installed dos 6.0 on my 386-40 pc and i cannot run winqvt/net any more. i keep getting "packet received for invalid port-reset sent" messages on the console window. i can't get more than 1 telnet window and can't use ftp!!! any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. george kontoravdis (condor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10808">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10808" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 as long as we're bashing typography... ...unix is case dependent... yes, unix is case-dependent. :-) pete gontier // ec technology // gurgle@netcom.com microsoft windows: "like putting lipstick on a chicken" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10810">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10810" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck i just tried it, but i can't say that it works, 'cause it doesn't read 800k disks, it only reads 1.44mb. if there a program that does read 800k disks, please let me know. i'm not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the 800k disk. i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc 3.5" can't read it. this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct. hope this helps and correct me if i'm wrong. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10813">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10813" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hello - i am in need of a file viewer for 24 bit tiff images, to run under windows (3.1 if it matters); alternatively a package to run an x-server on top of windows would do very well. unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever i end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive. thanks in advance for any help, chapman@cs.sfu.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10815">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10815" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 in <1t7529$agf@agate.berkeley.edu> miyamoto@ucsee.berkeley.edu (carleton macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck i just tried it, but i can't say that it works, 'cause it doesn't read 800k disks, it only reads 1.44mb. if there a program that does read 800k disks, please let me know. i'm not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the 800k disk. i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc 3.5" can't read it. this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct. hope this helps and correct me if i'm wrong. you're right. you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii 800k 3.5" disk or apple ii 5.25" disk without extra hardware. however, mac 1.44mb disks can be read and written in a pc 3.5" hd drive with software only. this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file. it sure gets asked enough. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10816">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10816" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i got a ne2100 compatible ethernet card, and i just received my copy of chameleon nfs. unfortunately, it is not compatible with the ne2100 (only ne2000 or ne1000). what is the latest version number for chameleon nfs ? did soemone tackle this problem ? thanks for help, f. popineau e-mail: popineau@ese-metz.fr popineau@loria.fr voice-mail: (+33) 87-74-99-38 surface-mail: ecole superieure d'electricite 2 rue edouard belin f-57078 metz cedex 3 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10819">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10819" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 in win 3.1, one may assign hot-keys for the program items within the program manager. how about the program manager itself? is there one already, or is there some way to assign one? put progman (with the hotkey) in your startup -group. should do it. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10821">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10821" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 can somebody help me out of this..... i just installed the version 104 of mcafree anti-virus program and when i tried to scan the entire hard disk, i got the message of "sorry, i can't open xxxx" for a couple of files, including the wscan104.exe. this didn't happen before (in previous version) nor appear on my friend's machine. thankx.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10825">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10825" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i know that there is a list of the best shareware and public domain programs for windows at the cica ftp site, but unfortunately it is a year old. the list author made it sound like the list was going to be updated every month. is it still being updated? does anyone else compile a similar list? also are there any individual suggestions as to what the best shareware/public domain programs are? i'm interested in good software in just about every category (please try and include the ftp site and exact file name, if possible, in your post). siockman@leland.stanford.edu "it will be good." - david broza 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10826">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10826" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 it is the new command with dos 6 that allows you to erase your directory and all the files in it, without first erasing the individual files. |dana wells, ba | _#_ yes, another male dana | |wilfrid laurier u, waterloo, on | /. .\ urban geographers | |well5173@mach1.wlu.ca | \_*_/ plan-it better! | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10827">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10827" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 in fact, i'm looking for a possibility to connect different peaces of information (like in the windows help system). and no, i don't want to program such a system by myself. the necessary effort and afford should be as small as possible. thanx in advance, thomas! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10828">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10828" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck i just tried it, but i can't say that it works, 'cause it doesn't read 800k disks, it only reads 1.44mb. if there a program that does read 800k disks, please let me know. well, you can't say that it don't work. the inability to read 800k mac disks is not a sw problem. rather, it's a hardware limmitation on pcs. i have seen a post about a program able to read non-1.44mb mac disks, which comes with a watchamacalit <ma memory's faling> card, which you just drop into a com port or something. don't remember specifics, tho. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10829">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10829" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize : quality. ms has made their life easier, and more productive and to them : that is quality. they do not care about what innovative things ms has : done, other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot : easier. you may know better than most computer users in this world : but that will not change their perception. none of this changes the fact that msw3.1 is objectively inferior to its i have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them-- they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best. i'm glad i'm not one of them. + kurt d. bollacker duke university medical center + + kdb@sunbar.mc.duke.edu durham, nc 27710 + 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10830">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10830" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 /yes, a lot of what os/2 2.0 has in common with os/2 1.x was written by you /guys. however, many of the things that made os/2 2.0 so much more successful /(win-os/2, workplace shell) than previous versions were ibm work. yes, certainly. it was ibm that wrote the windows code!!! isn't this the point of "a better windows than windoze". :). brett d. sherron-ferrell email@bferrell@uceng.uc.edu u. of cincy "catch the cats............ college of engineering ...............if you can" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10834">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10834" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 |> in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows 2.0 i get |> a couple of error messages along the lines of: |> >can't find font mt extra for default printer. some characters my not be |> >displayed or printed.try installing equation editor again or reinstall a |> >new printer. |> similar for the font fences. |> i know i have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them. |> i have tried both of these solutions to no avail. |> if anyone has had similar problems and has found a way to fix this, could |> they let me know. it is urgently required !! |> thanks , it's back!!!!!! congratulations, you've just discovered a very nasty, and very frequently ecountered, bug in the word setup program. once you know what is wrong, it is quite easy to fix. go into the fonts dialog under control panel, and select the two fonts mt extra and fences. delete them, but only delete the list entries, not the disk files. now select add, and add the fonts mt extra plain and fences plain. close the font box, close control panel, and restart word. everything should be alright now. does anyone know if microsoft has fixed this thing yet? they have to know about it by now, it's been so frequently reported. daniel silevitch dmsilev@athena.mit.edu massachusetts institute of technology 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10835">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10835" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have been backing up my hard drive ever since i had to re-install everything from scratch after a crash (learned the hard way, didn't i?!). i am using a windows-based backup program (actually norton), and i began wondering about the logic of this. sure, if i accidentally delete a file, i can get it from the archive. but what if my disk crashes again? i would not be able to start windows to run the backup program! (note, by crash, i mean, there was some error message that prevented the machine from booting properly. i think i gave up too early, but i didn't have the time/patience/tools to figure out exactly what the problem was. my hard drive needed cleaning up anyway. yeah right...) this whole scenario is complicated by the fact that i am using stacker. so i think there are 2 possibilities: 1) i'm right. if my disk really crashes, i would at least have to re-install dos and windows to get the backup program working. 2) i'm wrong. there is an easy way to make a "mirror" of a hard disk that can easily restore it's state from scratch. the polls are open... tom ioerger univeristy of illinois, cs grad student ioerger@cs.uiuc.edu 
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 : so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize : quality. ms has made their life easier, and more productive and to them : that is quality. they do not care about what innovative things ms has : done, other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot : easier. you may know better than most computer users in this world : but that will not change their perception. none of this changes the fact that msw3.1 is objectively inferior to its this is indeed true. i prefer windows nt. it is certainly much better than microsoft windows 3.1/dos. o ( wolfgang strobl wolfgang.strobl@gmd.de (+49 2241) 14-2394 /\ * gmd - gesellschaft fuer mathematik und datenverarbeitung mbh _`\ `_<=== schloss birlinghoven, p.o. box 1316, | #include __(_)/_(_)___.-._ w-5205 sankt augustin, germany | <std.disclaimer.hpp> 
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 jg> after this fall, i believe ibm no longer has any rights to jg> view microsoft code. after that, the only way to maintain jg> some sort of compatibility is to reverse-engineer. would jg> you want to reverse-engineer an ole2 application? don't they retain windows nt oem status? if so, that gives them nt source code, and since windows is headed toward nt... (win32s, win32c) * slmr 2.1a * --t-a+g-l-i+n-e--+m-e-a+s-u-r+i-n-g+--g-a+u-g-e-- | the file bank bbs - 619-728-4318 - pcboard v.14.5a/e10 - usr hst & ds | | 8 nodes / rime / internet / largest clipper file collection in the world | 
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 you're right. you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii 800k 3.5" disk or apple ii 5.25" disk without extra hardware. however, mac 1.44mb disks can be read and written in a pc 3.5" hd drive with software only. this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file. it sure gets asked enough. i agree that this should be added to some sort of faq list. but we have strayed from the original topic. our computer environment is pretty split between mac's and pc's... i am lucky and get to have both on my desk. but there are people who have pc's and need to share data with the mac users here. the mac users have no problems because of package called dos mounter which automatically lets the mac read dos disks natively. for the pc there is no equivilant... that i know of! both mac-ette and macsee have been inconsistant under the dos platform, and requires you to perform the activity in a dos program to selectively transport the files. the question originally posed was if there is such a program that hooks into windows like a .dll that will interpret the reading of a mac disk when it is in a pc, and allow access to it through the standard file dialogs. it is quite clear that this would only be available for the 1.44mb flopies. -- t.j. fiske tfiske@qualcomm.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10845">
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 my windows 3.1 installation has somehow gone awry. whenever i try to run windows now, the logo comes up ok, but when it tries to enter windows itself, the screen gets totally screwed up as if it's in the wrong graphics mode or something. it's completely illegible although functional as i can still exit to dos with an alt-e return combination. i tried to reinstall windows again, but if you recall, halfway through the installation process, install takes you into windows and there my graphics problem surfaces again so i cannot complete the re-installation. all this started after trying to get a game working on my system but my config.sys and autoexec.bat have been restored to what they were before this problem cropped up. i'm running a 486-33dx with a diamond stealth vram (i've resinstalled the stealth video drivers again but with no luck). i'm also using qemm and stacker 3.0 but windows is installed on an un-stacked partition. and of course, it worked perfectly before. any email replies and suggestions would be appreciated. thanks. -hutch- 
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 none of this changes the fact that msw3.1 is objectively inferior to its this is indeed true. i prefer windows nt. it is certainly much better than microsoft windows 3.1/dos. please....apples to apples. nt is a beta, and as such cannot be accepted as a competitor to win3.1-it's not on the market. same for os/2 2.1, for a couple or weeks...... o ( wolfgang strobl wolfgang.strobl@gmd.de (+49 2241) 14-2394 btw, cute sig. brett d. sherron-ferrell email@bferrell@uceng.uc.edu u. of cincy "catch the cats............ college of engineering ...............if you can" 
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 it's called the free enterprize system. i suggests that those who wish to enhance dos, do it, an sell it, or give it away. microsoft can't be everything to everyone! period! it has been done, but the other companies don't have the marketing budgets that ms do. 4dos, for instance, is everything that command.com should have been (but never could be under ms). those who use it usually find it more addictive than crack cocaine. but they have to rely on word of mouth for sales. it seems to have worked pretty good so far, but your corporate weenie manager type usually likes to see a big glossy ad in pc magazine. that's okay, marketing isn't a fundamental human right, but they've got a product that's superior to the dos command interpreter in every way. they have a lot more to be proud of than ms does. if ms really gave a damn, they could duplicate it, buy it outright (they've got the money), or even use the old ruse of sending engineers out to help them with compatability issues and absconding with the technology. dos is a mediocre product at a cheap price backed up by top notch marketing and vendor agreements. the "mediocre" was excusable in the early days when it was someone else's hack, but they've had ten years to play with it. an interesting thought on that: most ms products that i'm aware of in the last few years allow you to access the names of the designers and programmers through easter egg screens, including windows, or at least have the names buried in the files. is there such a thing in dos 5.0 and 6.0, or are they too ashamed to have their names on it? there's at least one fool in every married couple. 
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 macsee.zip on ftp.cica.indiana.edu is supposed to read and write mac disks. i've never tried it, though. good luck i just tried it, but i can't say that it works, 'cause it doesn't read 800k disks, it only reads 1.44mb. if there a program that does read 800k disks, please let me know. the easiest way to do this is if you can send the files accross the network. this is much easier going from a mac to a pc because you don't have to worry about losing the resource fork of the file, often a problem when sending binary files from a pc to a mac. 
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 om> /yes, a lot of what os/2 2.0 has in common with os/2 1.x was written by you /guys. however, many of the things that made os/2 2.0 so much more successful /(win-os/2, workplace shell) than previous versions were ibm work. yes, certainly. it was ibm that wrote the windows code!!! cliff, do you know the difference between "windows" and "win-os/2"? here's a helpful hint: running "windows" under os/2 2.0 is only possible in real mode, in a dos box. of course, this is only possible with windows 3.0, since windows 3.1 no longer has a "real mode". the ability to run standard mode, the ability to have an os/2 <-> windows clipboard, the ability to run seamless, and a few other things were all added by ibm to "win-os/2". now, everybody who is running "windows" in real-mode in a dos box under os/2 2.x raise your hand. finally, everybody who is running "win-os/2" under os/2, raise your hand. get the picture, cliff? mike dahmus internet: miked@vnet.ibm.com vnet: mdahmus at boca penpm development ibm ipnet: mike@schleppo.bocaraton.ibm.com ibm personal systems disclaimer: not an official ibm spokesman 
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 this is indeed true. i prefer windows nt. it is certainly much better than microsoft windows 3.1/dos. how do you like it compared to os/2 2.x? -->> mike 
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 i agree. no one ever definitively met my challenge-- only batted around semantics. oh well, i guess things did turn out as i expected. hmmm. i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria, and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being 'lame'. you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria. one wonders who's playing semantic games, here. rick schaut uucp:...{uunet | uw-beaver}!microsoft!richs microsoft doesn't speak for me, and i don't speak for microsoft. 
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 (i have been having trouble posting this article from within tin for over a week. if you do get multiple copies, my apologies.) here is a challenge to microsoft or microsort supporters to defend the pathetic state of dos 6 as an upgrade distribution -- it is a long story but would make good reading for those who are interested in knowing the potential pitfalls of "upgrading" to dos 6 that i have been able to notice after only about a week of playing around with it. my envorinment ti travelmate 4000 winsx (486sx/25) 4m ram 120m disk system bios version 1.03 05/21/92 by texas instruments cl-gd6420 vga bios v 1.03 a1 by cirrus logic & quadtel advance power manager battery.pro v b6.00 by texas instruments smart drive cache (win3.1/dos6) parameters: 2048 1024 a- b- windows benchmark winbench(tm) v 3.11 02/11/93 by zd labs after "updgrading" to dos 6, i could not understand why certain things became so slow, especially after i decided to try 'dblspace'. in the process of finding out why, i discovered some interesting things. disk performance with double space and smart drive while most things did not appear to slow down most of the time, certain applications appeared to run very much slower. what was interesting is that commands like 'chkdsk' and 'defrag' were running far too slowly to consider them useful by any standards. i suspected double space (ds) and decided to measure its impact on my system using winbench(tm). the real disk winmark of 20350 for the original system (as shipped from factory with dos 5 and windowws 3.1) became 10718 when "upgraded" to dos 6 with ds. thus there is an effective performance degradation of more than 50 percent which did not really surprise me because i knew that ds compression must cost something. specifically, for short sequential reads up to 512 bytes, ds actually *improves* transfer rates by about 10% (because cpu being faster than i/o, more cpu cycles needed for ds is more than compensated by savings in i/o cycles). however, for all other cases, particularly large random writes, the transfers take up to three times as long. while the performance depends on the type of access (i.e random or sequential, small or large transfer units), on the average (based on winbench's assumptions), the disk slows down to half its speed. the tests alone, done in 'real mode' (see winbench) and with smartdrv on, do not say much except that it helps to put into those subjective statements like 'there is no noticable difference in performance' or even that 'it will speed up disk access when you have a fast cpu and slow disk i/o'. this explained why some applications ran markedly slower, but not why 'chkdsk' and 'defrag' (the latter especially) too so long. double space and windows dblspace will not run at all from within windows, not even if you wanted to only to get information, not modify anything, or for that matter even check on its usage -- try "fasthelp dblspace" in a dos box within windows and you will see what i mean from the error message you get. how narrow minded can a programer get, i wonder. yes, this information can be obtained through the mstools.dd add-on to file manager, but this 'mstools' dll does not understand a compressed floppy! (use the dos 6 supplement utility to create a compressed floppy if you dont know how to.) dos 6 defragmenter is incompatible with ti apm defragmentation seemed to take too much time. even so, i waited patiently till it finished and then ran it again to just to confirm. this confirmation 'dblspace /def' command for the 120m drive should take no more than 30 seconds (much faster on other defragmenters i have used) but it took 12 minutes. i discovered that if i moved the mouse, defragmentation checking ran faster (the % figure ticked more rapidly). it dawned on me that this had to do with ti's battery saver advanced power management (apm) module which slows the clock down when it thinks that the cpu is idle, and it obviously thought ds defragmentation was an idle process! after disabling the ti's power saver, this operation took only 20 seconds. microsft programmers think ti4000 and gateway nomad users are idiots in the readme.txt file, you can find the the following running microsoft backup with ti4000 and gateway nomad computers to avoid a conflict between the turbo feature and microsoft backup for windows or ms-dos, add a /l0 switch to the device command in your config.sys that loads the battery.pro file. or, before you run microsoft backup, type setpower /l0 at the command prompt. if you checked ti's manual on the /l0 option, you will realise that it means "disable all power saving features of your notebook". why would anyone want to run a driver disabled! as i have found out, not only does ti's power management interfere with microsoft backup as the readme.txt claims, but 'chkdsk' and 'dblspace' (and who knows what else) are crippled by the ti's power saver. it is obvious that there is not such thing as apm specifications. if there indeed is such a thing, then either microsoft programmers or ti programmers dont know how to read these specifications. you dont have to guess as to who are the idiots. by the way, if you run the advance power management utility, power.exe in dos6, when you check the status, it says: power management status setting = adv: max cpu: idle 60% of time. this figure of 60% seems to be the steady state value on my notebook when i am running nothing (windows with only program manager in iconised form). does that mean that windows takes up 40% of my cpu all for itself, and that i have at best only 60% left for useful work? is such an overhead justified (whether or not windows is an operating system or just another user interface)? (in dos alone, it reports 99% idle time.) looks like windows is a good example of busy waiting type of package that i like my students to study as the classical 'negative' example of our times! microsoft programmers do not know batch programming i like to structure my startup script and thus have the equivalent of addpath statements like this: set path=c:\dos set path=c:\etc\bin;%path%;c:\bin set path=c:\etc\windows;%path%;c:\windows set path=%path%;c:\bcc\bin set path=%path%;%mouse% even though the new dos was installed in the same directory as the old one (i.e. c:\dos), dos 6 installation program modifes each and every path statement, and prepends c:\dos to its value. as a result, my resultant path has so many dos's. if the installation program wanted to remove the old dos path, and add the new dos path, clearly it has to only scan for the path statement containg the old dos directory and replace it by the new dos path. (even this should only be done if the new dos is installed in a directory different from the old one being 'upgraded'.) instead, the microsoft programmer (if you can call this person one) decided to meddle every path statement i had in the autoexec and prepend dos to the value. i wonder if microsoft is so desparate that it would not fire programmers who are incapable of the thought process. i started a thread on this when dos 4 came up, and the microsoft representative in singapore called me about this poster. in fact he specifically said his us counterparts saw the poster and relayed the information to him as he did not have access to internet. now that has not changed one bit. in fact, if you have a path statement with %path% already in it, is it not obvious that the this statement should not be touched for any reason? as another example of the inability of microsoft programmers to understand batch programming -- i had the mouse driver invoked as: set mouse=c:\etc\mouse set path=%path%;%mouse% loadhigh %mouse%\mouse.com guess what memmaker did? it replaced the last statement with lh ... c:\etc\mouse\mouse.com why is it so difficult just to replace loadhigh with lh and its parameters, without touching the rest of the line, i do not understand. dos 6 software quality dos 6 is the only operating system i know, in which, under normal usage, you end up creating a file that you cannot get rid of using of the commands that come with it. i am deliberately being cryptic about this: i challenge microsoft to use all its programmers to catch this bug and publish it. if they dont within a week, i will post how you can create this "ghost" file. surely if i can pick this bug without even looking for it after using a particular command only twice, i am sure two dozen microsoft (idiot) programmers randomly banging on their keyboards over a week could find it -- that is what i was told how microsoft "tests the quality" of their products. i think it is funny that microsoft has found ways to "test quality" when it is accepted in the industry that quality cannot be tested, but can only be built into the product. no wonder they cannot provide any form of guarantees on their products, not even a decent list of bugs that will prevent scores of user from destroying their disks beyond repair! also, if you run 'dblspace /def' often enough, repeatedly when the disk is fully defragmented, you may get errors, that was created by the defragmenters. i got my io.sys file size error and it got truncated when i did the chkdsk. this happend only after five successive defragmentation efforst after the first one supposedly did its job and with no new file creation since. microsft, dont you dare reply to this poster on the network until you admit that your ds has bugs, and are willing to let us know what we should watch out for if we have already used ds. dr. jayasooriah cse, cs&e, unsw | sign in a paris hotel: p.o. box 1, kensington, nsw 2033 | tel/fax: +61 2 697-5683/313-7987 | "a sports jacket may be worn to dinner, internet: jayas@vast.unsw.edu.au | but not trousers." dr. jayasooriah cse, cs&e, unsw | sign in a norwegian cocktail lounge: p.o. box 1, kensington, nsw 2033 | "ladies are requested tel/fax: +61 2 697-5683/313-7987 | not to have children internet: jayas@vast.unsw.edu.au | in the bar." 
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 by night i'm an amiga user. by day i work with windows. i'd be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things. 1. a good personal information manager. you know- a calendar, address book, reminder list etc... rolled into one clean interface. i prefer infoselect myself, but it is a strange kind of pim. 2. a good file manager. microsofts is very poor by my standards. how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them. being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice. as well as text reading and graphics viewing. those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i'm looking for. well, a few things might help you like the 3.1 file manager better. 1) to get more than one window simply double click on a drive icon. that it only gives you one window to work with is a fallacy. you can drag files between windows, to any icon on the tree on the left side of the window, and to any drive icon. this beats your "left and right window" as you can have as many open as you wish instead of just two. 2) you can launch any app from within file manager by double clicking on the executable's icon. 3) you can launch any application and open a document file by double clicking on the document file's icon, provided you have associations set correctly. this is easily done with the menus. the "browse" capability adds a lot of functionality to 3.1. so if you name all your text files with .txt and point all gif, tiff, etc. files towards paintshop or wingif, this takes care of your requirement for "text reading and graphics viewing". i know someone who prefers using file manager as his shell. setting up all the associations you need is the way to do it. if directory opus is half as good as file manager then it must be pretty good indeed! file manager just needs you to understand how some things are done. iskandar taib | the only thing worse than peach ala internet: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | frog is frog ala peach bitnet: ntaib@iubacs ! 
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 i noticed ati had posted *beta* avi drivers for their mach32 boards on compuserve.. has anyone had the chance tgo try them? how well do they work? very well indeed. at home (a vl bus version of the graphics pro) i can stretch an avi window to 640x480 and it will continue to play back smoothly. it drops a few more frames but on most machines even attempting such a thing would mean one frame update every 30 seconds. an isa graphics+ was able to do "zoom by 2" without any perceptible performance penalty. it is the best performance i've seen so far with the possible exception of an intel indeo board (which uses overlay so it doesn't have to move the decompressed data over the isa bus at any point). john munsch 
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 hello netters i recenlty aquired enough money to purchase a laser printer. the other day, i bought the computer shopper mag. i was looking through printer review section and noticed the winprinter800. the machine is incredibly low priced for all the features it has 800 dpi! 8meg ram postscript compatable envelope printing my question is does anyone have one of these or know why the price is so cheap? i would appricaiate it if someone would pass on their knowledge on this subject. thanks alot! donuts are a girls best friend 
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 |> i for one like windows. prior to 3.0 i had little use for it because of early |> problems. since 3.0 it is my preferred operating system. .... nah .... if ms windows 3.1 were an operating system, so would be x-windows, motif, geoworks , desqview, the shareware win-boss c library and that what's-it's-name text-based windowing system written in applesoft that ran on the old-faithful apple ii ... [ note the similarity? all of the above rely on some underlying real os .... ] imho, they are windowing systems, and just that. [ some are cooler than others though ... ] 
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 i just received a gateway 486/33 with windows and dos 6.0. i ran it a few times with no apparent problems. i decided to give double space a try. after compressing the drive, with no problems, i decided to load windows. it took 1 minute 45 seconds to load after dblspace, 17 seconds before dblspace. i tinkered a little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive 4.0 cannot work with dblspace. the reason for the change from smartdrv.exe 4.0 included with windows 3.1 to smartdrv.exe 4.1 included with dos 6.0 is compatability with dblspace. be sure you are running smartdrv from your dos directory. 
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 if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve, please upload it to cica or other ftp site. st1pb@elroy.uh.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10936">
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 : >i agree. no one ever definitively met my challenge-- only batted around : >semantics. oh well, i guess things did turn out as i expected. : hmmm. i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria, and your : response was some subjective claptrap about them being 'lame'. you never : did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria. i repeat. what are they? you mentioned what you tried to present as innovative, but what new concept was brought to market? an efficient basic? basic existed before, and efficiency is not original either. ole? what new concept does that bring? document oriented computing? the mac had that before msw. you simply haven't made your point-- the burden of proof is upon you. my *exact* challenge-- what new computing concept has ms brought to market first? nothing more, nothing less. explain how your examples fit that criterion. hmm...has anyone of us computer geeks (me included) ever consider that inovation is not limited to software/hardware. true, ms products do not boast features that ms invented, but how many products out there by other vendors out there are truely innovative in their continuing development? i think what makes ms special to the public is thier innovative pricing. it is true the xwindows/mac/next all have some feature(s) in thier gui that are better than ms. but people like me can't afford them. it is true that apple has lower their pricing on the low end models.. but they are just that...low end. system 7 is a better operating system, but the machines they operate on just are too expensive for my tastes...a unix platform is powerful enuf, but tell the common user to set up .xdefault (i am still confused on what some of them things do) and they either puke or faint. if u think about it, low prices aint innovative if u come down to it. but for the product it offers and on the lower cost (and powerful hardware that it runs on as compare to macs)....ms is kinda innovative.. oh yea, i guess the fact that the support products and applications they have garnered for mswindows does make them kinda innovative too.. dixon d. ly dly@joule.elee.calpoly.edu dly@oboe.calpoly.edu electrical and electronic engineering, cal poly - slo 
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 [description of file manager info menu option. edit the winfile.ini file. if there is a section [addons] in it, great! else, add the following two lines. if the [addons] section exists, then just add the second line. [addons] info=filesize.dll note that the filesize .dll is a part of the windows resource kit. if you install it (and you can download it from cica), it will make the appropriate changes itself. if you quote my article remember to trim it down to the essentials. anant kartik mithal, akm@cs.uoregon.edu network manager, ph.d. student (503)346-3989 comp. science, u of oregon, eugene, or 97403 (503)346-5373 (fax) 
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 i am trying to capture some 256-colour screenshots from windows. currently i have tried pressing 'print screen' to copy the screen to the clipboard then paste the clipboard into the windows paint package. many thanks for the replies i received to this. a couple of people suggested how i could get the paint package to work properly, but in the end i took the advice of someone else to try paintshop pro from cica.indiana.edu. thanks again. --philip practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty 
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 i have a 486/33 vlb machine, with a wang 96/24 fax/modem. when using the windows terminal application, the only way i can get it to 'see' the modem is to change it to com2, then go back and change it to com4. then it works fine. (i have it set to com4 as the port to use) i don't have anything plugged into com2, and i've looked over the manual for all it's worth, but what am i missing? the modem is jumpered for com4/irq3, which i understand means i can't use the second serial port and the modem at the same time, but i'm not using the second serial port anyway. also, when using procomm + for dos, it always sees the modem and dials, but doesn't always connect me when the other end answers. don't know if that helps any. brian d. reed bdr@cbnewsg.cb.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10943">
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 |> : in other words, it is your *opinion* that msw3.1 is inferior to its |> : competition. that's not the same as msw3.1 being objectively inferior. |> no. it is technically inferior to the os/guis that i listed. ok, now you are starting to define your criteria. |> by this criterion, it is inferior. i'm afraid that you haven't actually proved that. you have shown that some aspects of msw3.1 are technically inferior to other systems. as i said earlier, if this is all you are trying to say then it is trivially true. but some aspects of msw3.1 are actually technically superior to each of the other systems (resource requirements, performace, device support, printer support, gui etc.) [ btw, i'd love to see the studies which show that unix/x is as easy to learn as windows! ] but i might even agree that, on balance, msw3.1 is technically inferior to some of the competition. this still does not prove your point. |> if you have another, then perhaps i am incorrect. range of available applications? base os cost? cost of applications? cost of hardware? multi-platform support? quality of the after-sales service? availability of books/training materials? support for visual and physical handicaps? suitability for use in mobile computing? quality of if you think that technical excellence is the only factor when deciding on an os, or indeed the primary factor, you need to think again. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10944">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10944" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i've recently re-uploaded to cica the current (v2.8) version of the working model of microcal origin, a scientific and technical 2d/3d graphics and data analysis package for windows 3.x. the working model is 2d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies, but is largely identical to the full version. saving origin files is disabled, but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin. it also says it has an expiration date of sept. 1, 1993. try it. you may like it, as i do! it's currently at ftp.cica.indiana.edu (129.79.20.17) in the directory /pub/pc/win3/uploads as origin2.zip. the file origin.zip is, unfortunately, incomplete (sorry 'bout that!). <include std disclaimer> | tom carter | carter@photon.cem.msu.edu | | michigan state university | carter@msucem.bitnet | | chemistry department | | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc10945">
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 i just removed an ide drive and reformated two scsi disk to use as boot disk in a system that did run windows fine in 386 enhanced mode. its a dx50 with 8 meg ram, and an adaptec 1542b with bios enabled. system runs fine and runs windows in standard mode fine, but it returns to the dos prompt when trying to run 386 mode. i've tried emmexclude and sysrombreakpoint. what gives?????? thanks in advance, hal my views are my own! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9136">
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 does anybody have document of .rtf file or know where i can get it? thanks in advance. :) i got one from microsoft tech support. sterling g. bjorndahl, bjorndahl@augustana.ab.ca or bjorndahl@camrose.uucp augustana university college, camrose, alberta, canada (403) 679-1100 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9137">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9137" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a question about winbench (pc labs thing) 3.11.. i have a 386/33 and a ahead b (512k) card and got these results- windows vga driver - 2.44 million ahead b (640-480-256) driver - 455,000 winmarks windows svga (800-600-16) driver - 1.68 million winmarks... i was thinking about upgrading to a diamond 24x card.. i read it had about 8 million winmark.. obviously this is much much greater... but is this in 256-color mode or what? is this a good card...street price is about $170... on my 386dx 33mhz 4mb ram winbench 2.5 24x v2.02 16.7m 1,668,274 v2.03 16.7m 1,668,985 v2.03 16 4,602,428 v2.03 256 7,635,278 richard mayston maystonr@grace.cri.nz 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9139">
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 there's one thing about windows that really frosts me. i have 20mb of ram installed in my system. i use a 5mb (2.5mb under windows) disk-cache, and a 4mb permanent swap file. while i can never fill the memory up, i still have problems sometimes because i run out of gdi resources. what gives? i think windows could manage these resources a little better. are you using windows 3.0 or 3.1? if you're still on 3.0, 3.1 devotes about twice as much memory to these and runs out much less frequently. if 3.1, you might use one of the resource monitors (such as the one that comes with the windows 3.1 resource kit or one of the many shareware ones available) to see which programs are hogging the resources (every icon, internal graphics brush, etc. in every program running uses a certain amount of this limited memory area. also, some don't give it back when they're finished). lamont downs downs@nevada.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9140">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9140" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards? in excel (xls) format? what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ? is the source available, and has anybody try to port it to x-window, at least in a way that will make comparisons possible? on ftp.cica.indiana.edu in pub/pc/win3/misc/winadv.zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench 3.11 and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards. this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you're currently giving serious consideration. not in xls format. latest version of winbench that i know of is ver 3.11. i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions, and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks. don't know on the last one. al devilbiss al@col.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9142">
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 |> >yes, and it is the fastest defrag i've ever watched. it did a 170mb |> >hard disk in 20 minutes. |> i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk. |> is it just a strip-down version of the later? |> i have both norton speedisk and backup, so i was wondering |> if i need to install ms backup? |> richard yes, defragger is come from norton. if you have norton utility, don't bother. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9143">
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 with my limited knowladge about the pc geos, i came out with following comparison: pc geos windows os/2 unix/x11 ________ _______ ____ _______ 2. can run win programs nop yap yap nop novell is at least demoing windows apps running under unixware. 5. can run unix nop i have not nop yap heard of it try mks. mks & others, esp. note here: the mks toolkit (for dos/windows & os/2) gives you a good suite of standard unix utilities. there are other similar systems from other vendors as well. the emx system for os/2 gives you most of the standard unix system calls for recompiling your unix programs under os/2. not quite the same thing as actually running unix programs directly in either case, but emx makes os/2 almost as compatible with unix systems as many unix systems are with each other. and, best of all, emx is free. :-) there is a similar system (go32) for dos, but it doesn't work with windows, as far as i know. 7. price $120 $70 $120 free-$1000s a good one costs $400-$700 avaliable on ext. card too. should add in the cost for dos with both geos and windows, neither of which is a standalone os at this point. neither os/2 nor unix requires btw, two of the best unices i've seen for the pee cee are unixware ($300 for the personal edition) and linux (free). so i don't agree that "a good one costs $400-$700." :-) and, if you really want to check out the various options available to you, you should also look into desqview and desqview/x. chris waters | the insane don't |"judy's in the bedroom, xtifr@netcom.com| need disclaimers | inventing situations." -d. byrne 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9144">
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 i am looking for comments on xtree (pro ??) for windows. i am thinking of buying the product but i have not even seen it yet. thank you... shane holland holland@ug.cs.dal.ca holland@ug.cs.dal.ca maurack@ac.dal.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9151">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9151" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 |> with my limited knowladge about the pc geos, i came out with following |> comparison: |> pc geos windows os/2 unix/x11 |> ________ _______ ____ _______ |> 1. can run dos |> programs yes yes yes yes(needed add.) [lines deleted] |> 7. price $120 $70 $120 free-$1000s |> a good one |> costs $400-$700 |> avaliable on ext. |> card too. |> 8. c compiler don't think so yap yap yap |> 9. c++ no yap yap yap |> 10. fortran no yap yap yap |> 11. debuger ? yap yap yap |> 12. min to run dos 2m & 10mb-hard ? 386 |> you guys and gals add to this list, so we do not throw our many down the |> tubes. |> with highest regards, |> babak sehari. this list appears to imply, that ms-windows that has a cost listed above at $70, comes with a c compiler, c++ and fortran. it does not, of course. these are expensive add-ons that drive the price way beyond $70. ( i don't know if the same applies to os/2 ) as far as unix is concerned; there is a free unix, linux, that has cc, ~c++, fortran ( f2c ), xwindows and many other features besides, with a large number of utilities that can be optionally added. and there is also a free 386bsd i believe. both these unix's are quite robust. you can check out comp.os.linux if you don't want to "throw our many down the tubes", you've got to break that list down a little more. roderick campbell department of physics memorial university of newfoundland st. john's, nf, canada internet: rcampbel@weejordy.physics.mun.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9153">
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 =>there is a free unix, linux, that has cc, ~c++, fortran ( f2c ), =>xwindows and many other features besides, with a large number of utilities =>that can be optionally added. and there is also a free 386bsd i believe. =>both these unix's are quite robust. you can check out comp.os.linux i dunno about linux, but for 386bsd, don't forget networking (well tested, at that), nfs, a fast, incredibly stable filesystem, and the list goes on... 8-) for us 386bsd folk, look in comp.os.386bsd.*. moderator of comp.os.386bsd.announce, anti-politician, and sometime evangelist chris g. demetriou cgd@cs.berkeley.edu "386bsd as depth first search: whenever you go to fix something you find that 3 more things are actually broken." -- adam glass 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9154">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9154" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 is anyone aware of existing ipx/netx software for windowsnt or is attachment to netware a future release? please respond to internet mail: raymaker@bcm.tmc.edu i believe the beta version of the service is available via ftp on ftp.cica.indiana.edu in pub/pc/win3/nt called something like nwnt.zip there is an index ascii file there, which lists the programs in that directory and what they do. unfortunately this beta will also disable netbeui and tcp/ip over your primary nic, so if you really want to run it, get yourself an extra nic and bind it to that. otherwise wait for next release, like i am. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9155">
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 has anyone else experienced problems with windows hanging after the installation of dos 6? i have narrowed the problem down to emm386. if if remove (or disable) emm386, windows is ok. if emm386 is active, with noems, windows hangs. if i use auto with emm386, the system hangs on bootup. david clarke ...the well is deep...wish me well... ac151@freenet.carleton.ca david_clarke@mtsa.ubc.ca clarkec@sfu.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9157">
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 again, not true. the characters in a tt or type 1 font depend on the maker. if someone converts a type 1 font to tt they'll only get the characters in the font of orgin. tt allows for much more flexibility in this area as well. you can have thousands of glyphs in a tt font file (mac/ps/windows/unicode char set) and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font on. well, yes, both type 1 and truetype fonts can contain lots of characters. and in both cases plain text fonts will be reencoded to windows ansi in windows, and to mac standard roman encoding on the mac. no difference there between t1 and tt! and as for fonts with thousands of glyphs, right know these are a liabiliaty rather than a great new thing. reason is that a font with 3000 characters is very large, and if you can only access 224 of them you are paying a heavy price in downloading time and printer storage. (and at the moment there is only one program of that uses `partial font downloading') for instance, all or our fontpack 2 tt fonts have the mac/windows char set in them. the metrics of the fonts are such that if the font is brought over to the mac the user will have access to the full mac char set. yes and t1 text fonts all have the `iso adobe' character set, which is a superset of windows ansi and macintosh standard roman enocding. the question is whether you can get at the glyphs. in windows, for example, you cannot get at the ligatures `fi' anfd `fl' (both t1 and tt)even though a font may very well have them. and, while it is somewhat painful to reencode a type 1 font and to create a new windows metric file (pfm) for it, there are utilities out there to allow you do this. how do i reencode a truetype font? how can i get at the `fi' and `fl' ligatures in windows (or on the mac)? are there utilities that make it possible to circumvent the hard-wired windows ansi encoding? regards, 1001-a east harmony road bob niland suite 503 internet: rjn@csn.org fort collins co 80525 compuserve: 71044,2124 (303) 223-5209 berthold k.p. horn cambridge, massachusetts, usa 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9160">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9160" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i've heard about ottomenu which should be a good desktop on windows 3.0/3.1 . can anybody tell me where i can get it ? it should be on cica in /pub/pc/win3/util but it is not. it is also not an wustl,simtel and a great number of other just post it or mail me. andreas gloege kazmaierstr.48 (bei klarmann) 8000 muenchen 2 089/508336 email : gloege@informatik.tu-muenchen.de 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9162">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9162" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i've just bought a pc which came with a bundle of lotus stuff, including adobe type manager version 1.15. as a newcomer to windows, i'm confused about which i should be using, atm or truetype. there is a program called true-effects for windows, that allows you to define attributes for true-type fonts, and have them look like new fonts. it will give your font different backgrounds, or shadows, or reverse, etc... it only works with tt fonts. yes, and the idea was ripped off from adobe, which has had a program called typealign for a few years now. typealign does the same thing for adobe type 1 fonts; *and* adobe has said that the next version will work with both adobe type 1 and truetype. and typealign does some things that trueeffects does not - including some things you apparently want ... if you want to use it, you best not want to use it with an atm type font. (oh, yeah... lest you think this is a really cool program, none of the effects are scalable (like the brick background pattern is the same size whether your font is 10 point of 100 point.), and it is not extensible, i.e. you can not add pattern of your own. and you can't rorate the background pattern... and you can't make the pattern extend beyond one character (every character in that new font has the entire pattern in it, as opposed to having the same pattern run contiguously through a couple of characters) it is however cheap. maybe i will buy a copy when the next version comes out, if they fix some of these gripes... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9164">
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 just as the title suggest, is it okay to do that? i havne't got dos6 yet, but i heart doublespace is less tight than stacker 3.0. what are disadvantage/advantages by doing that? any comments will be appreciated. ===martin 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9167">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9167" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards? in excel (xls) format? what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ? is the source available, and has anybody try to port it to x-window, at least in a way that will make comparisons possible? on ftp.cica.indiana.edu in pub/pc/win3/misc/winadv.zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench 3.11 and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards. this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you're currently giving serious consideration. not in xls format. latest version of winbench that i know of is ver 3.11. i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions, and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks. don't know on the last one. and why they are considering using winbench as a test, they may want to read everything steve gibson has said on the subject in his infoworld column the past couple of month. in short, virtually every board manufacturer cheats on the test by writing things in the driver that is there only to make the board appear faster on the winbench suite. so the winbench score has no bearing in reality to how cards stack up on real world tasks. in the last pc-magazine they benchmarked some of the new accelerators, and admitted that many of them 'cheated' on winbench. interestingly, they 'allowed' one type of cheating behaviour (caching for bitblt operations, no matter how unreal), yet did not allow a couple of other types of cheating behaviour that some of the cards used. at least one card was eliminated from the "editor's choice" because of cheating on the benchmark. al devilbiss al@col.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9169">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9169" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 ok, so if everyone is cheating.. is there any tests that run some macro (to load a huge drawing, etc...) on the same machine that might then tell us what the real world results are? i mean, run the tests on the same machine with different video cards running word, excel, or something like that to see how fast the cards are? swyatt@brahms.udel.edu !!! no disclaimer...i blame everything on someone else 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9172">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9172" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter? it looks good on paper, and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld. i'd love to get a real-world impression, though -- how is the speed? drivers? support? (looking for something to replace this ati ultra+ with...) [ /tom haapanen -- tomh@metrics.com -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth. now pull ] [ up. that's how the corrado makes you feel." -- car, january '93 ] 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9173">
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 well, the subject saysit all: does dos 6 do defragmentation?? yes, both dblspaced and non-dblspaced drives can be defragmented. i believe they use norton's speedisk. brian t. mcgloin | lift your glasses, friend, with mine ncr corp. | and raise your hand with me usg/iss-ols | i'm england stole, i'm ireland spent miamisburg, oh 45342 | i'm an outlawed rapparee 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9174">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9174" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am having a problem configuring the mouse in windows to use com3 with irq5. i don't believe irq5 is the problem. i tried a mouse on com3, irq4 (the usual place) and it still did not like it. simply, windows seems to only support mice on com1 or com2. the funny part is, though, that microsoft's own mouse driver (8.xx) was quite happy with my mouse sitting on com3. why can't windows use the mouse driver, or at least support com3? :-) com2irq=3 com3irq=5 com4irq=7 maxcomport=4 i've tried this too. actually, i wanted to be able to use my second modem (com3/irq5) from windows. it still will not talk to that modem. i created two profiles, amstrad (for my amstrad modem on com1/irq4) and maestro (for my maestro on com3/irq5). it will not talk to the maestro at all. (1,5106830617) that their driver does not support com3 and com4 in windows. their suggestion was that the 'microsoft or ps/2' setting in windows setup would work. it does not. nor here. (windows 3.0). i can not believe that it is not possible. at worst, you would need a special version of 'a' mouse driver that looked at com3 and com4 instead of com1 and com2. i know that irq5 and irq7 are normally printer port irqs, but i i've seen nothing like that. i've experimented with logitech's mouse driver too, with no sucess. have no printers attached. a side note is that i would really like to assign com4 to some higher irq, because my soundblaster board uses irq7 (right now, i'm not using com4), but no modem that i know of allows settings other than irqs 2,3,4,5, and 7. if you have a soundblaster pro, it should support irq10 as well. finally, a board that supports irqs >9. the only one i have (except my ide controller). hamish moffatt, hamish@cloud.apana.org.au apana: the australian public cloud nine bbs, 3:635/552@fidonet access network association. melbourne australia 58:4100/43@intlnet mail info@apana.org.au titanic software. voice: +61-3-803-1326 for information. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9176">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9176" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 as a beginer, i just wonder how to transfer files from the sun system (which is on the network) to my pc at home (not connected to the network). i tried to use 'comit' to do so, but it was very slow and it seemed that getting multiple files at the same time was impossible. could anybody give me some hints & infomation? thank you in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9450">
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 in comp.os.ms-windows.misc you write: while reading through the dos 6.0 book, it states that the windows permanaent swap file will not work correctly when placed on a compressed drive. to make things compatable, i removed my permanent swap file before starting the upgrade. however, when all the dust settled, and i go into windows, it says that the temporary swap file is right where it always was, in the windows directory. my question is: how come the temporary swap files works ok with a compressed drive, and the permanent one doesn't? you might want to look in windows faq for this one, but here is my best explanation. but i can't guarantee that i'm not way off base... the permenant swap file is read/written to by windows by talking directly to the hard disk controller card. the controller card must use the protocal set up by western digital (or something like that). windows creates a file called spart.par in your windows directory that points to that file. it then uses the physical information about your disk to index to information in that file. compressed disks are actually "logical" disks. these disks have different characteristics than the actual physical disk. furthermore, the information on the compressed disks must be uncompressed before it is used. (i.e it must go through the decompression program that traps disk reads at the operating system level or the bios level). because of this "inbetween" program, windows cannot use direct methods to read from the "logical" disk. a permenant swap file is only there to "reserve" an area of the disk that windows can use and to block that space from dos. windows would theoretically not even have to access the file from dos to use that disk space. (i don't know if it does or doesn't...but it checks for it somewhere everytime you boot windows.) a temporary swap file is just a normal dos file that is accessed by windows via dos and the bios. if a disk compression program or other tsr is loaded the file access must go through dos...tsr's (disk compression)...and bios in order to be access. (i.e. never use a temporary swap file...never) more on permenent swap files... i'm sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message "you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size...windows will only use the size suggested...do you wan't to create this swap file anyway" or something like that. well, a friend of mine (robert) called microsoft and asked them what and why. what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by 2. then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space. windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers. they also said that under absolutely no circumstances...none!...will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size. well...that's what he said! i call bull@#$#. if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it's not going to use it? any takers? (if this doesn't get to the net, will someone post it for me? thanks) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9451">
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 this is the qvthost.rc file. 137.112.5.2 137.112.199.50 the host file requires the names that you'll be using in addition to the ip address sucb as 100.0.0.1 name.server.name 100.2.2.1 name.router.name carols@ohsu.edu 
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 when i use a name such as rosevc.rose-hulman.edu initiating nameserver query for 'rosevc' nameserver query time out when i use the ip number local host or gateway not responding i know the nameserver is correct and the router is correct. they work fine using ncsa telnet/ftp. they are working ok, but your definitions in qvtnet.ini and qvthost.rc are incorrect (see below). the docs said if you are running concurrent packet software you need to load pktmux??? does this apply to me??? no, i don't think so. you are using qvtnet and novell concurrently, aren't you? they use different packet types, so qvtnet (tcp/ip) and novell (ipx/spx) should be able to coexist just fine. pktmux is required if you are using different tcp/ip-packages concurrently. this is the qvthost.rc file. 137.112.5.2 137.112.199.50 there is the first problem: you didn't specify hostnames, just ip-addresses. your file should look like this: 137.112.5.2 <name of your nameserver> 137.112.199.50 <name of your router> this is the beginning of the winqvt.ini file. [net] name=swartzjh.test.rose-hulman.edu here you should only specify your hostname, without the domain part. router=137.112.199.50 instead, use router=<name of your router>, as specified in your qvthost.rc i know the release notes for 3.31 say that ip addresses should work also, but apparently they don't. nameserver=137.112.5.2 here, too, you should use the hostname of the nameserver instead of the ip address. it worked fine for me that way, although i could not specify more than one nameserver. the relnotes say it should be possible to specify up to three nameservers, separated by commas, but it didn't work. hope it helps, | dr. richard spitz | internet: spitz@ana.med.uni-muenchen.de | | edv-gruppe anaesthesie | tel : +49-89-7095-3421 | | klinikum grosshadern | fax : +49-89-7095-8886 | | munich, germany | | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9454">
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 1. i received amish utilities for windows when i purchased turbo c++ for windows. what is amish utilities? what can it do for me? all i received was the disk, no docs. maybe it milks the dogcow? 9-) 2. i am running windows in 1024x768x256 mode using a driver that was supplied with my svga card. the card is a boca svga card with 1meg ram, and i think it has an et4000 chip in it (at least thats what some program tells me). the driver is an old driver that was written for windows 3.1, it seems to work fine, but would i gain any benefits by switching to a newer driver? if so which one should i use and where could i find it? lots of drivers are available off ftp.cica.indiana.edu in pub/pc/win3/ drivers/video. i've tried two: et4cview.zip and et4turbo.zip. these give you a choice of turbo and non-turbo drivers. the turbo drivers were fast but caused mouse problems with my machine (which has a diamond speedstar card). i finally got turbo drivers (wndspeed by binar) from diamond. amazing. blazingly fast (for a non-accelerated card) and best of all - no gpf's for a month or so... iskandar taib | the only thing worse than peach ala internet: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | frog is frog ala peach bitnet: ntaib@iubacs ! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9457">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9457" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a problem when using subscripts with msword. the problem is the subscripted characters get cut off on the display, but print out ok. anyone know how to fix the subscripts so i can see them on the screen? many thanks, ! howard moy ! ! (608) 255-6379 ! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9460">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9460" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'm having problems printing spanish characters with wfw2. i was using the celtic true type which has the accented characters, and used insert symbol to put in in the document. however, when i put it in the doc, i get a big square character, and then it prints out just the same (to my dismay, thinking that was just the way it worked). can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters? i know wp 5.1 has this built-in, but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw2. help! | robert s. dubinski | aliases include: robb, regal, sir, mr., and i | | marquette university ||||||||||| math / computer science double-major| | internet address: 2a42dubinski.vms.csd.mu.edu | milwaukee, wi | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9462">
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 i've been using version 2.5.2 of ghostscript, and i'm quite satisfied with it. there are, actually, 3 versions: a plain dos version, a 386 version, and a windows version. harvey stein hjstein@math.huji.ac.il 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9464">
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 this is the 2nd reguest for discussion ( rfd ) for the creation of comp.databases.ms-access the discussion period started on april 6 and it will last until april 28, ( 22 days ). this is an official rfd for the creation of a new newsgroup for the general discussion of the microsoft access rdms. name: comp.databases.ms-access moderation: unmoderated. at this time, no need for a moderator has been assertained. future evaluation will determine if one is needed. purpose: access is a new rdbms for the windows operating system. it includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation of tables, reports, forms and queries and a database programming language called access basic. the purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use access's wysiwyg design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use access basic to create complex databases. rationale: eventhough access is a new rdbms, it is very popular because of its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price. been a version 1.0 product means that all access users are novices. for that reason a newsgroup is needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other's questions. mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9465">
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 i'm looking for a program that will let me use a windows common dialog box to select a file to use when running a dos app. basically, i have several dos apps that i use now and then with different files. they all accept a file as a command line parameter, but the only way (at least that i know of) to do this easily when running them from windows is to set up the pif file so that it prompts me for additional parameters (at which point i type in the file name). problems are: 1) sometimes i can't remember where the file is exactly located and it would be nice to browse my directories for it without having to use the file manager. and 2) i'm lazy and hate to type long pathnames for files burried several directory levels deep. if anyone can point me to such a program or let me know of some other way to handle this, i'd appreciate it. the net isn't organized enough to be considered an anarchy reczek@autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9471">
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 that's me.... i just downloaded the windows ghostscript package(gswin252.zip,gs252ini.zip) from ftp. when i load a ps file it says it cant find font and substitutes a font called ugly. it is substituting for basic fonts such as helv, and cour. i would imagine that these fonts are included in its font library. is there something i am doing wrong or am missing? these ugly fonts are not very clear and well defined, as in sharpness, etc, basically they are ugly! any advice is welcome. ok, i realize i have to get the font files from some ftp site. i found them at cica but i now have another question..... are the 24*.zip fonts compatible with gswin252?? please email brian servis || servis@author.ecn.purdue.edu || "it happened this way" || ===================================|| actual quotes from insurance claims|| || what i say may not be what i || || || think. what i say may not be || "the pedestrian had no idea which || || what purdue thinks. || way to go, so i ran him over." || 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9472">
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 anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond 1024x768x256 driver? sorry, don't know the version of the driver (no indication in the menus) but it's a recently delivered gateway system. am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this. post or email --don lindbergh dabl2@lhc.nlm.nih.gov 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9473">
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 does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9476">
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 we are trying to write a program which can read files created by quattro pro 3.0 and above. would anyone know where to find information regarding the format in which quattro pro stores its files. thanks in advance famous dummies = madam tussade's wax museum. still at case msk9@po.cwru.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9477">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9477" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'm investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework. i have come across a few that look good: zapp 1.1 from inmark zinc 3.5 from zinc software c++/views from liant win++ from blaise some considerations i'm using: being new to windows programming (i'm from the unix/x world), the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important. however, since i'm not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming, the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one. i don't believe arbitrary levels of abstraction, just for the sake of changing the api, are valuable. since we will be developing for the 32bit windows nt system the memory management issues and issues particular to the windows 3.1 api are less we will probably buy another c++ class library (something like tools.h++ or booch components from rational) to handle data structures and other miscellaneous stuff (allocators etc...). so those features are not that important for this toolkit to have. the two that i have narrowed it down to are zapp and zinc, they seem to be the two toolkits that have received the most attention from the media. i was wondering if anyone had any first-hand experience with any of these toolkits (especially zapp and zinc). a couple of observations about these toolkits that seem particularly noteworthy are: seems to have the most extensive coverage of windows functionality and also includes some other miscellaneous useful classes. has new fancy 3d-style controls available, and support for custom controls. has a windows nt version (essential) redirectable graphics display/output architecture (useful for printing) sizer class for automatically managing control layout after resize. seems to be the newcomer, this could be an advantage in designing a better system. has a platform independent resource strategy. (not too important for me right now) comes with a interface builder tool has a windows nt version (essential) seems to have been around longer (more mature), but grew up out of a dos version. had a better demo :-) both have source code availability options both are lacking ole support neither seem to have any particular support for multimedia type stuff any thoughts anyone has on this would be much appreciated, brett harper brett.harper@cimlinc.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9478">
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 more on permenent swap files... i'm sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message "you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size...windows will only use the size suggested...do you wan't to create this swap file anyway" or something like that. well, a friend of mine (robert) called microsoft and asked them what and why. what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by 2. then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space. windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers. they also said that under absolutely no circumstances...none!...will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size. well...that's what he said! i call bull@#$#. if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it's not going to use it? i think the support droid was malfunctioning and confused the disk space limit with the virtual address space limit. as far as the disk is concerned, you are limited only by the amount of contiguous free space. the limit that causes the message, "windows will only use ...," is the amount of virtual address space that the virtual memory manager will create, and this is a function of the amount of free memory that you have when windows starts. in the [386enh] section of system.ini, you can specify a parameter: pageovercommit=multiplier the following description is from the windows resource kit: this entry specifies the multiplier what determines the amount of linear address space the vmm will create for the system, which is computed by rounding up the amount of available physical memory to the nearest 4 mb and then multiplying that value by the value specified for pageovercommit=. increasing this value increases the amount of available linear address space, causing the size of data structures to increase. this also increases paging activity proportionately and can slow down the system. you can specify a value between 1 and 20. the default is 4. to change this entry, you must edit system.ini. bob nichols at&t bell laboratories rnichols@ihlpm.ih.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9479">
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 two-part question: 1) what is windows nt - a 'real' windows os? 2) this past weekend, a local 'hacker' radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called 'chicago' if i recall. anyone know what this is? that is it - thanks a heap. windows nt is a giant windows operating system. unline win3.1, it does not run on top of dos. it is its own os, with (billy gates assures us) true multi-tasking/multithreading, meets dod security specs, will run win3.1 programs as well as dos programs, has multi-processor support, and is primarily a server program. it's overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users. speaking of overhead, it requires at least a 386 with 16 megs of ram. it iwll run with 12, but that's like running os/2 2.0 with 4 megs. and that's just to run it. also, i have heard that the system files take up 30-50 megs, and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig! the skd is distributed on cd-rom. chicogo is what i want to use. it is, like nt, a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading, but has much smaller hardware requirements, and does not meet dod security specs (but that's okay since it will probably be more of a client os). there are a few otehr differences, but those are the main ones. there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august. the chicogo and nt development groups at micro$oft are in intense competition, so it is said. however, i think a different relationship will arise: nt will be the server (*n*etowrk *t*echonology), chicogo will be the client machine. it is entirely possible for different os's to work together, partly because chicogo is just a small nt (think of it that way, anyway). (novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos, so don't scorn the concept.) anyway, don't expect it soon. windows 4 and dos 7 are supposed to be released next year (read: see it in 95), so i expect that chicogo won't be out til '96. with luck, i'll be proven wrong! =) \ rmohns@vax.clarku.edu / _________\ /________ \ rob mohns / annoy rush limbaugh. think for yourself. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9481">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9481" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : does anyone out there have any info on the up and coming fall comdex '93? i was : asked by one of my peers to get any info that might be available. or, could : anyone point me in the right direction? any help would be appreciated. it's in las vegas (as always) between november 16th and 20th. for more information contact: the interface group 300 first avenue needham, ma 02194-2722 sorry, no phone number available. consult directory service in massachusetts for the number (617, 508 or 413). -- willy * ville v. walveranta tel./fax....: (510) 420-0729 **** ** 96 linda ave., apt. #5 from finland: 990-1-510-420-0729 *** *** oakland, ca 94611-4838 (faxes automatically recognized) ** **** usa email.......: wil@shell.portal.com * 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9483">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9483" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati the latest driver release is 59 and can be found at ftp.cica.indiana.edu in the pub/pc/win3/... directory structure as pro59.zip. i checked with ati's bbs last nite and there were no releases past 59. we have the ati local bus card and i noticed that i get garbage around the edges of a window when i move it. has anybody else noticed this also? thomas b. fisk +----------------------------+ internet: fisk@mayo.edu mayo clinic | if you don't know where | voice: (507) 255-4341 200 first street sw | you're going you'll never | fax: (507) 255-5484 mail stop 2d-337 stm | get there. | rochester, mn 55905 +----------------------------+ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9485">
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 i look at zapp and really liked it. however, i think you should wait for version 2.0 (i think it will be out soon). mike maley maley@cs.umn.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9487">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9487" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 in a previous article, mlipsie@rdm09.std.com (mike lipsie mpu) says: your swap file is purged every time you exit windows. if you shut off your computer without exiting windows your swap file remains. 20 mb is on the large side, are you running more applications than you really need to at the same time? this is, of course, not true. the *temporary* swap file is purged every time you exit windows. the permanent file is permanent and can only be changed by adjusting the virtual memory. i suspect that either the original poster was "tinkering" and adjusted the swap file to 20mb (and then forgot about it) or somebody "helped" him. mike lipsie (work) mlipsie@ca.merl.com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory (home) mikel@dosbears.uucp when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about 20 megs of swap file space, my 120 meg hd was nearly empty at that time. i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded, now my hd is nearly full and windows just took 4 megs. i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size. i have 4 megs of ram and windows took 4 meg perm swap file. works very well. in fact with my available hd space, about 20 megs it won't let me make the swap file any bigger. you should change your virtual mem swap file to 8 megs i think that is what you said your ram was. c-ya..... /\/\artin this communication is sent by /\/\artin university of arizona tucson ak333@cleveland.freenet.edu mlinsenb@ccit.arizona.edu mlinsenb@arizvms death has been dead for about 2,000 years ****** follow the king of kings 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9489">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9489" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 perusing through my windows 3.1 directory, i came across a file called regload.exe. i assume this is part of the registration database, but neither my windows manual, win resource kit, nor pc mag's description of files in the windows directory had a reference to it. at least not one that i could find. does regedit.exe use it? or am i way off base? peter goudswaard _________ _________ goudswaa@sfu.ca (preferred) | | __/^\__ | | pgoudswa@cln.etc.bc.ca | | \ / | | pgoudswa@cue.bc.ca | | _/\_\ /_/\_ | | "there's no gift like the present" | >_________< | | - goudswaard's observation |_________| | |_________| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9492">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9492" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : write over the "licensed to:", but you can't change the name underneth it. i : think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate, and we're not : going to promote that here. not so! my computer was supplied with my name in an 'interesting' mix of upper and lower case, and my workplace mis-typed. i'm getting fed up with being 'cmyearsley' at 'keel unversity'! it took me 20 (!) phone calls to the supplier to get the computer working at all. i really can't face tackling them again.... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9494">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9494" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 my suggestion would be to contact microsoft about the video4windows sdk. you would need to call developer services at (800)227-4679 extension 11771 from 6:30am to 5:30pm pacific time. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9496">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9496" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 greetings! i am looking pro a win 3.1 printer driver for the panasonic laser printer kx-p4430. (i am not sure about the order of the first letters in the name, but the numbers are right and they are important.) i have found drivers for panasonic printers 4450 and so on, but i think there should be drivers available where the 4430 model is included. grateful for any help! kjell@hut.fi kjell@niksula.hut.fi kjell@vipunen.hut.fi 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9497">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9497" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 two-part question: 1) what is windows nt - a 'real' windows os? 2) this past weekend, a local 'hacker' radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called 'chicago' if i recall. anyone know what this is? that is it - thanks a heap. windows nt is a giant windows operating system. unline win3.1, it does not run on top of dos. it is its own os, with (billy gates assures us) true multi-tasking/multithreading, meets dod security specs, will run win3.1 programs as well as dos programs, has multi-processor support, and is primarily a server program. it's overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users. it also runs os/2 character based apps and posix apps. the dos, 16bit and 32 bit windows apps run in a windows 32 bit subsystem. if you consider the fact that nt has: the lanman redirectors, built in support for tcp/ip built in support for netbeui comes with tcp utils like ping and an ftp client, etc applications like schedule+ and a 32 bit version of msmail the storage argument isnt an issue. speaking of overhead, it requires at least a 386 with 16 megs of ram. it iwll run with 12, but that's like running os/2 2.0 with 4 megs. and that's just to run it. also, i have heard that the system files take up 30-50 megs, and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig! the skd is distributed on cd-rom. i ran it on a 486 with 8mram and it did a ton of disk swapping, with a 19m virtual memory paging file. it functioned but it crawled. (this was the oct build) i upgraded the machine to 16m and the performance is good, at that point i installed the march build. consider they are probably still working on the feature set, and havent done a lot of fine tuning to the code yet. chicogo is what i want to use. it is, like nt, a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading, but has much smaller hardware requirements, and does not meet dod security specs (but that's okay since it will probably be more of a client os). there are a few otehr differences, but those are the main ones. there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august. the chicogo and nt development groups at micro$oft are in intense competition, so it is said. however, i think a different relationship will arise: nt will be the server (*n*etowrk *t*echonology), chicogo will be the client machine. it is entirely possible for different os's to work together, partly because chicogo is just a small nt (think of it that way, anyway). (novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos, so don't scorn the concept.) anyway, don't expect it soon. windows 4 and dos 7 are supposed to be released next year (read: see it in 95), so i expect that chicogo won't be out til '96. i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison. is it in beta? is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison? just my $0.02 /aln 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9498">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9498" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison. is it in beta? is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison? just my $0.02 /aln chicago from what i have read is projected to run in 4m on 386 and higher. it is definitely aimed at the desktop. it is rumored to offer preemptive multitasking, multithreading but will not offer multiprocessing. is 32 bit and no reliance on dos. it is rumored to have an integrated file and program manager. dos 7 is rumored to be similar to chicago but without the gui. is also a step towards cairo (the next generation os) which is rumored to be object oriented. i wonder where windows 4.0 fits here is it a stepping stone to chicago? hope this helps. thx dave l 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9500">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9500" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 chicogo is what i want to use. it is, like nt, a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading, but has much smaller hardware requirements, and does not meet dod security specs (but that's okay since it will probably be more of a client os). there are a few otehr differences, but those are the main ones. there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august. the chicogo and nt development groups at micro$oft are in intense competition, so it is said. however, i think a different relationship will arise: nt will be the server (*n*etowrk *t*echonology), chicogo will be the client machine. it is entirely possible for different os's to work together, partly because chicogo is just a small nt (think of it that way, anyway). (novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos, so don't scorn the concept.) anyway, don't expect it soon. windows 4 and dos 7 are supposed to be released next year (read: see it in 95), so i expect that chicogo won't be out til '96. how does chicago differ from the (sort of) announced windows 4. my understand- ing, at least from the inbfoworld accound of windows 4 is that it's sort of nt lite--a full-fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make nt such a bear. is w4 not true multithreading? 
</context>
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9501">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9501" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have normal procomm plus for dos, but i've been considering buying the windows version....it got really great reviews in computer shopper. i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it, but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem....he has a 14,400 modem on a 486 50 mhz machine. i can't see it having trouble keeping up. his pcplus for dos works great, but the windows just seems to always screw up....is this common and is there a fix? or is something just screwed with his machine? i have no trouble running procomm for windows at 14.4 v.42 on a considerably slower 486sx. could be a video problem but only if he has incredibly slow 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9504">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9504" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 *** nothing beats skiing, if you want to have real fun during holidays. *** *** rob de winter philips research, ist/it, building wl-1 *** *** p.o. box 80000, 5600 ja eindhoven. the netherlands *** *** tel: +31 40 743621 e-mail: dewinter@prl.philips.nl *** 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9506">
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 this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to: information of ms-windows... ahh, yes, this is a fun topic. no, once the name is incribed on the disk, that is it, it is encoded. not even a hex editor will find it. you can write over the "licensed to:", but you can't change the name underneth it. i i can find it with a hex editor, although i have not tried to overwrite it. are you sure it can't be? you may be mistaken about this. (???) you can change it. as part of a continuously downsizing government organization, my code (branch) changes about once a year. i just finished changing the registration information using norton utilities. i sent the original requester the hex offset into user.exe containing the information, and his reply indicated he got several similar answers. and it's not encoded in any way. as for the legality, there's nothing that keeps me from changing the information; it certainly doesn't reach out and alter the serial number printed on the inside of my manual. jim moore panama city, fl 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9507">
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 i'm investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework. i have come across a few that look good: has a platform independent resource strategy. (not too important for me right now) brett.harper@cimlinc.com just a thought on resources, it is very important if you do use a multiplatform toolkit to check on how it uses resources. i have used glockenspeil commonview under motif and os2. i wrote a resource converter from os2 to motif, but it really wasn't too easy, especially the naming scheme. in motif you cannot rename controls/widgets. with windows you can call the ok button id_ok in every instance, this doesn't work for motif, you'd have to call it dialog1_ok, and motif expects a text string rather than a number. so your constructor should know how to convert a #define into the proper resource identifier. i'd check on how the toolkit expects names, and that if it does use resources, that is uses resources for all platforms you intend to port to. ( by the way, i would never use commonview or glockenspiel for anything ) __ __| \ __| alex colburn | / \ | image analysis facility | _____ \ __| university of iowa ______| _/ _\ _| colburn@tessa.iaf.uiowa.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9513">
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 windows nt is a giant windows operating system. unline win3.1, it does not run on top of dos. it is its own os, with (billy gates assures us) true multi-tasking/multithreading, meets dod security specs, will run win3.1 programs as well as dos programs, has multi-processor support, and is primarily a server program. it's overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users. correction: all billy is promising is that it will run 'most' windows 3.1 programs and the 'major' dos programs. do not expect everything you have to run under nt unless all you have are current ms apps. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9519">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9519" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about 20 megs of swap file space, my 120 meg hd was nearly empty at that time. i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded, now my hd is nearly full and windows just took 4 megs. one of the rules for a permanent swap file is that it must be contiguous (non-fragmented) space. i suspect that is more responsible for the difference than the amount of free disk, in your case. i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size. i have 4 megs of ram and windows took 4 meg perm swap file. works very well. in fact with my available hd space, about 20 megs it won't let me make the swap file any bigger. you should change your virtual mem swap file to 8 megs i think that is what you said your ram was. it depends on what you are running. we had to increase our swap file (i think it is now 20mb) when some applications couldn't run without *everything* else closed. mike lipsie (work) mlipsie@ca.merl.com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory (home) mikel@dosbears.uucp 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9522">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9522" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic 5426 vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another. my parameters where just the following : 486 dx 33 vlb the card is equipped with 1 mb dram (not vram, there are 8 sockets for vram) and the moving of the window just looked like it looked at a friends 386dx 25 (387dx) and an normal isa et4000 what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip. how are the experiences here.. have i done something wrong ? (i installed the mswin 3.1 multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card ?!) would be nice if somebody could tell about his experience with this card also if there are new(hopefully faster) drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them :-) (ftp or whatsoever :-) ) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9523">
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 : i have normal procomm plus for dos, but i've been considering buying : the windows version....it got really great reviews in computer shopper. : i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here : using it, but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the : modem....he has a 14,400 modem on a 486 50 mhz machine. i can't : see it having trouble keeping up. his pcplus for dos works great, re: what to do after the high speed modem arrives. edition 01 apr 93 this article applies only to windows 3.0 and 3.1, and not to nt, os/2 or dos apps not running under windows. one of the unadvertised limitations of most current windows pcs is that their rs-232c (serial, com) performance is seriously deficient. almost everyone who purchases a high-speed modem (v.32bis, v.32, pep or hst) discovers the problem the first time they try to download a file or accept an incoming fax (at 9600+) after upgrading the modem. overrun and retry errors abound, even when the only active application is the datacomm or fax program. if the transfer completes at all, it may take even longer than with the old 2400bps modem. there are three reasons for the problem: 1. the universal asynchronous receiver/transmitters (uarts) used in most pcs are primitive ns8250 devices with single-byte fifo buffers. if the operating system/driver cannot read and flush each character at high interrupt rates, the next incoming character overwrites the fifo and the previous one is lost. dos, being a fairly single-minded environment during datacomm, can usually keep up. windows can't. 2. windows has more operating system overhead than plain dos, and interrupts often take longer to service. overruns are much more likely than under dos. as soon as you report to your pc/modem vendor that you are losing data, you may be advised that "you need to upgrade to a 16550". more likely, since there seems to be a conspiracy of ignorance about this issue, you'll get no useful advice at all. most of the store-front and mail-order sources i spoke with in attempting to solve my own problem had never heard the term "16550" and many didn't even know what a uart was. 3. even your pc has ns16550a uarts (and ps/2's do), or if you can upgrade your mother/com board or add a new com board, you may still experience errors and overruns because the standard microsoft windows com drivers don't take full advantage of the 16550. windows 3.1 is improved in this regard over 3.0, but i still recommend a driver upgrade. applications like procomm+/win (which is what i use) cannot get around this problem by themselves. if you have a modem card, you may not have a problem, as the modem part of the card can be designed to be aware of the state of the uart, and avoid overrunning it; however, i wouldn't want to bet that the card designers were that clever, and will insist on a 16550 uart if i ever buy a modem card. some modem cards don't even have conventional uarts, but if they are to work with standard windows drivers, they need to simulate one. use msd.exe (below) to see what the modem card is, or is pretending to be. the hardware situation. the uarts on most pc com ports are based on national semiconductor ns8250 or ns16450 chips (or megacells inside vlsi chips where you can't replace them). you can id the uart type on your system by running the microsoft diagnostic program \windows\msd.exe. be sure to run it in dos *before* bringing up windows. the windows serial api may prevent msd from accurately identifying a 16550 if you run it from a windows dos prompt. the ns16550 uart has separate 16-byte transmit and receive fifos with configurable trigger levels, and can run reliably at clock rates up to 460,800 bps, although with current modem technology, there's no point in pushing your luck by going over 115,200 bps. the 16550 has shorted access cycle times than the 16450 or 8250. the 16550 also has dma capability, but it is not clear that any pc drivers ever use this. for more technical info, see national semiconductor application note an-491. so, what uart component do you have? try to locate the uart on your mother board, multi-function i/o card, com board or isa/mca modem card. if you can't find a socketed component with the numbers "8250" or "16450", your com ports are probably buried in vlsi, and you won't be able to perform a chip replacement. if you can disable your vlsi com ports (as i chose to do), you can at least add an aftermarket com board. if you have one or more socketed 8250 or 16450 chips, you can buy plug-in ns16550afn or pc16c550cn (low power cmos version) ics from several suppliers typically for $9 to $15 each. the "n" chip is the normal 40-pin dual-in-line package. other styles are available, but avoid any ns16550 chips without the "a" (the 16c550c are presumably all ok). early ns chips have bugs, although national will reportedly exchange those of their own manufacture for free. clone chips are available from various ic makers other than national. the manual for the turbocom drivers states support for the following (apparently equivalent) chips: national semiconductor: 16550a, 16551, 16552 chips&technology: 82c607 texas instruments: t16c550a silicon systems: 73m550 vlsi 16c550 turbocom warns about the pre-"a" ns16550 and western digital 16c550, says that problems have been reported with early ibm ps/2 55sx and 70 systems (ibm reportedly will upgrade them). if you don't have socketed 8250/16450 chips, you'll need to buy an after- market com or multi-function board. if this is a modem card situation, you may be hosed. to add a new com or multi-function card, you'll need to either disable the com1/2 port(s) you are replacing, or re-assign them to com3/4 (although watch out for irq conflicts without turbocom). although cheaper cards are available, in the interest of getting the problem solved quickly i elected buy the modular circuit technology mct-aio+ card from: jdr microdevices 2233 samaritan drive san jose ca 95124 (800) 538-5000 voice us (408) 559-1200 voice other (800) 538-5005 fax us the mct-aio+ (and the "+" is important) sells for $89.95. it is an 8-bit isa card providing: port type connector address and irq comments com db9m com 1,2,3 irq 2,3,4,5 ns16550afn in socket com ribbon com 2,3,4 irq 2,3,4,5 ns16550afn in socket parallel db25f lpt1,2,3 irq 5,7 game ribbon the kit includes a ribbon cable and db25f connector for the secondary com port, a ribbon cable/connector for the game port, two bulkhead plates for the ribbon-based connectors and a 9f-to-25f adaptor cable. each port can be individually disabled, and the com ports have tx, rx, rts, cts, dtr, dcd, and dsr jumpers. jdr also sells a super-i/o m-f card that also has ide. i have heard from several people about less expensive m-f i/o cards with 16550s: tsd systems (407) 331-9130 $19.95 for the card, plus $9.95 per 16550. greenfield trading and distributors (518) 271-2473 (voice), (518) 271-7811(fax). their card is $33 w/one 16550, $45 w/2, and they sell 16550afns for $13. r&s data systems, inc. 820 east highway 434 longwood, fl 32750 phone: (407) 331-1424 fax: (407) 331-8606 2com/lpt/game card w/2 16550s for $39 i have no personal experience with any of the firms except jdr. meanwhile, back at the mct card from jdr... i only needed two serial ports, and am running out of irqs on my pc, so i disabled my built-in vlsi-based 8250 ports. however, with the turbocom driver (below), i could have set the internals as com3 and 4, using irq sharing. the software situation simply upgrading to 16550 uarts will not completely solve common overrun problems. the standard ms serial drivers don't take full advantage of the 16550. the windows 3.0 drivers are even less capable, and the windows 3.1 drivers have the following limitations: - they enable only the receive fifo, and only at rates above 2400 bps. - they never enable the transmit fifo, which results in an interrupt rate of 10x during uploads. - they set the trigger level at 14 bytes (too high - it's easy for 2 more bytes to arrive before the driver can read the fifo). - the ports menu of the control panel only allows speeds up to 19200. with a v.32bis modem, sparse data and text can easily compress 3:1 or more, suggesting that a host dte connect rate of 57,600 bps would be effective. - the api won't accept rates above "cbr_128000". - the api won't let dos programs know there is a 16550 there, and even if it did, dos programs that aren't 16550-aware get little benefit from a 16550 port with the standard drivers. - they don't allow irq sharing for com3,4. - the bios doesn't initialize com3,4 properly in many systems. - windows provides no workaround for apps that don't provide port speed options above 19200 bps. these problems are reportedly not solved in windows nt or dos 6.0, and may or may not be addressed in any windows releases after 3.1 (but before 4.0). rumors suggest they "may" be solved in windows "4.0". you can get replacement drivers that solve all of those problems by buying a copy of "turbocom", current version 1.2, from: bio-engineering research pacific commware division 180 beacon hill lane ashland or 97520-9701 (503) 482-2744 voice (503) 482-2627 fax (503) 482-2633 bbs mcimail: 344-5374 compuserve: 71521,760 price was around $50 as i recall. bio-eng is not set up to accept credit cards, so i had to send a check. egghead and 1-800-software list turbocom but as far as i know, they don't stock it. bio is not a software company per se. they apparently needed reliable hi-speed serial connections for an in-house instrument application, wrote their own driver, discovered a market for it, revised it to be a general purpose com driver suite. they recently upgraded it for windows 3.1. it is run-time licensed. i now have my host (dte) connect rate set to 57,600 bps most of my datacomm apps, and i am having zero problems with downloads. i routinely see transfer rates that exceed 2,000 bps. i am also using 115,200 bps when linking an hp95lx to my pc, with lossless bi-directional i/o. uploads to various remote systems are another matter, because many hosts are still using antique uarts and drivers. note that 19200 is still the highest rate that the windows 3.1 port menu in control panel will allow in configuring a com port. turbocom gets around this by allowing you to specify, on each port, a factor that will set the real uart rate to a multiple of the rate passed through the windows apis and dialog boxes. i also have cts/rts hardware flow control enabled, and i suggest that you do the same. even if you only ever transfer 7-bit ascii data, xon/xoff is not a sufficiently reliable method of flow control. the informal (dec) standard for xon/xoff hysteresis is that the sender may transmit another 16 (yes, sixteen) bytes after receipt of the xoff from the receiving system or device. the 16 byte fifo in the 16550 is clearly not big enough to let us rely exclusively on xon/xoff. a well-respected datacomm engineer has informed me that the 16550's can't really do cts/rts all by itself in the dos/windows environment, so using data rates above 115,200 may still be risky. even with hardware flow control, a 16550 with turbocom can still experience overruns in very busy systems, with lots of apps running and serious swapping in progress. if this is your situation, you may need to buy a co-processed com board, but this will cost you more than a 16550/turbocom upgrade. a review of two such boards, and a review of turbocom, can be found in the feb'93 issue of "windows sources" magazine. i suggest trying a 16550/turbocom upgrade first, and experiment with process priorities and time slices if you are a "power user" whose thrashing system still runs into comm problems. closing soapbox comments the state of rs-232c serial datacomm support is an embarrassment across the computer industry. because it is the oldest standard i/o interface, the job of designing hardware and writing software often seems to be assigned to the least senior or lowest ranked engineers at computer companies. the design of the average serial port is at least ten years behind the state of the art. in my last job, with a major workstation vendor, i lobbied for improved serial ports when they were doing the initial designs of a new system. that family of machines was subsequently introduced with 16550 ports. however, this is the exception. few computer companies seem to have any champions for decent i/o. you may as well learn what you can about serial i/o, because this situation shows no sign of improving soon. when v.fast arrives, i expect cries of outrage from windows users world-wide whose 8250 pcs "sort of" work today with v.32, but will fail miserably with v.fast. without a hardware-buffered uart (like the 16550) and without software drivers that use that uart to best advantage, a v.fast modem will be a waste of money. regards, 1001-a east harmony road bob niland suite 503 internet: rjn@csn.org fort collins co 80525 compuserve: 71044,2124 (303) 223-5209 copyright 1993 robert j. niland all rights reserved permission is granted for automatic redistribution of this article, via electronic, magnetic and optical media, in an unedited form, through any usenet newsgroup where the article is posted by the author. permission is granted for each compuserve and usenet reader subscriber and each person who received this article from compuserve, an ftp site authorized by the author or via electronic mail from the author, to retain one electronic copy and to make hardcopy reproductions of this edition of this article for personal non-commercial use, provided that no material changes are made to the article or this copyright statement. all other copying, storage, reproduction or redistribution of this article, in any form, is prohibited without the express written consent of the author, robert j. niland. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9524">
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 hi ... can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of updated canon bj-200 printer driver for windows 3.1, if any ? i have ver 1.0 which comes with my bj-200 printer, i just wonder if there is any newer version. thanks very much, please email. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9525">
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 this may be a simple question but: we have a number of pc's which we use to link to a mainframe using novell lan workplace for dos (via windows 3.1). now, to make life easier for us we are thinking of using windows for workgroups to allow file sharing across our pc network. now does anyone know if it is possible to use w4wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time. ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time, simultaneously. any help well appreciated. gary hunt. centre for advanced studies in architecture university of bath absgh@gdr.bath.ac.uk 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9528">
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 i struggled with the margin problem for ages as well, until i finally got hold of the shareware binary editor beav133, and dug into notepad.exe (there is no setup facility to force notepad to default to 0.0 margins- it's hardwired into code!!!). do a search for ".75", then change the offending bytes to ".00", et viola. who are the guys who hardcode these "options" anyway? i'm interested in whether the problem only rears it's ugly head for certain printers- i'm using an old epson lx-800 (or is that ex-800? never can remember). you are nto alone. i get the same problems with my panasonic kpx 1124i (24 pin). oterhwise, it's a great printer. i just can't find a driver for it, only for the non-"i" version. anyone seen it? \ rmohns@vax.clarku.edu / _________\ /________ \ rob mohns / annoy rush limbaugh. think for yourself. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9531">
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 hi all, does anyone know if there is a good sound formats conversion program out there??? (like paintshoppro for picture formats conversion) please send me a copy of your reply!!! thanks a lot hi... the best sound conversion program i've ever seen is soundtool, which is shareware from germany. i found a copy somewhere in wuarchive.wustl.edu a long time ago, but i don't know offhand what directory it was under. it's great at converting files of all types, including mac, next, sun, and various pc formats... it's also a great player and editor, with various special effects that put windows' sound recorder to shame. it requires a driver for various sound cards... the only builtin one is for the pc speaker (and even that sounds pretty good), but if you're just using it to convert things, you can convert them in soundtool and then play them in sound give it a try! * "why, that's the second | mogul@soda.berkeley.edu * * biggest monkey head i've | mogul@ocf.berkeley.edu * * ever seen!" -guybrush | mogul@uclink.berkeley.edu * 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9534">
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 our student association runs a small novell network which has a subnetwork of windows for workgroups and microsoft mail. the director of finance, en electrical engineering student, would like to gateway this system, either via slip or not, into the university's network and thus the internet, at the very least to exchange e-mail, but possibly also to do ftp's etc. for now, this would be done via a 9600 bps modem. he would like to set it up so that it would periodically call in to check mail, but would otherwise connect whenever needed. what is the best way to do this? gatewaying software is available, but what works best? please reply to me: dkmiller@unixg.ubc.ca or the d of f : dleung@ee.ubc.ca with a cc: to the other. i don't read all of these groups regularly, so mail is best. if this is a common question, please pot me to a faq or ftp site. :=:=> derek k. miller dkmiller@unixg.ubc.ca researcher, alma mater society thegrodd@tz.ucs.sfu.ca university of british columbia, canada room 230b - 6138 sub blvd., vancouver, b.c. v6t 1z1 campus mail zone 1 phone (604) 822-6868 fax (604) 822-9019 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9535">
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 somewhere in this thread, it has been said that windows nt (tm) is a multi-user os, as well as multi-threading, etc. i certainly haven't seen this to be the case. there are seperate accounts for each person, and even seperate directories if that is desired. i don't see an implentation of simultaneuos use though. scott reimert \ reimert@mamacass.etdesg.trw.com /standard disclaimer: redondo beach, ca \______________________________________/"blah blah blah ... " __________________|always store beer in a cool dark place|_____________________ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9536">
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 as the subjects says, windows 3.1 keeps crashing (givinh me gpf) on me of late. it was never a very stable package, but now it seems to crash every day. the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently: ie i have you tried setting files in your config.sys file to a fairly high number? (i've got mine set to 100; i've seen numbers from 40 to 100 recommended). also check your stacks statement, stacks=9,256 is a good starting point. try increasing it if it's already set there (such as to stacks=12,256, etc.). both stacks and files have been identified as _one_ cause of frequent win3.1 crashes. lamont downs downs@nevada.edu 
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 anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond 1024x768x256 driver? sorry, don't know the version of the driver (no indication in the menus) but it's a recently delivered gateway system. am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this. as a followup, this is a co-worker's machine. he has the latest 2.03 drivers. it only happens using the 1024x768x256 driver. sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out, but it eventually does in this mode. i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants. i excluded a000-c7ff in the emm386 line and in system.ini the problem persisted. perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it's components. it is a 66mhz dx/2 eisa bus with an ultrastore (24xx?) controller. ah well, i was hoping this was some kind of 'known problem' or somebody had seen it before. perhaps a call to gateway is in order, but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know. --don lindbergh dabl2@lhc.nlm.nih.gov i haven't seen this particular problem, but another place you might check is if your bios is doing video shadowing--diamond wants that turned off. that might cause a memory conflict as well. good luck. hope this helps, chris loschen, brandeis u. 
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 does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a .gif image into a .bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper (i.e. 256 colors). hopefully there's something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere... thanks in advance... 
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 now does anyone know if it is possible to use w4wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time. ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time, simultaneously. yup. we're using both and they work just fine. hopefully, someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip. right now we have to load netbeui. i use odi with odinsup and all works well. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9546">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9546" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 while there are too many ps clones to count, some of which are quite poor, trying to clone something that goes through regular modifications does require some patience. three questions come to mid real quick for something like q: which version of adobe ps will we clone? aside from the level 1 and level 2 issues, adobe has in the past released new code that incorporates modifications/upgrades/fixes just as all other software vendors do. the level 2 stuff may seem sound now, but i assure you,changes will become more frequent as their customer list begins to dwindle in the face of competition. this allows them to shift people to maintenance, as well as design efforts for level 3. q: do we duplicate the bugs, or do we make it work correctly? from the laserwriter to the laserjet 4 there have been bugs. (if i had a number to call at hp or adobe, they'ld have heard from me.) deciding which approach to take depends on which printer you want to emulate. q: do we follow the red book, or do we follow someone's implementation? without a doubt, there are differences between the red book and adobe's ps. with level 2 many issues have been refined but the red book does leave big, big holes in the implementation specific stuff. it would be nice it the red bood at least pined things down enough so that two different implementations of adobe's ps don't do the exact opposite given an identical set of conditions. q: pscript.drv? having done a lot of ps clone testing myself, the unfortunate side of testing is the limited number of sources for test files. the primary source we use is genoa. and having characterizes their 1992 ps ats files, (1300+ of them) over half are taken from pscript.drv. it may not ideal, but the ats files are what the printer vendors use. i'm sure that adobe uses them too, but adobe's output is by definition correct, even if its yes, there are some very poor clones. we've seen them here at rastek (a sub of genicom which has its own clone called geniscript). some are poor for lack of design, some are poor because they followed the red book, and some are poor because the vendors don't know what ps is. don newbold don@rastek.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9547">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9547" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 [much text deleted] : i have heard from several people about less expensive m-f i/o cards : with 16550s: : tsd systems : (407) 331-9130 : $19.95 for the card, plus $9.95 per 16550. i can vouch for this one. i ordered it and got it for $34 including s&h. it took me awhile to figure out how to get it working with my system, but since i did, i get terrific results while downloading using pcplus for windows. i used to get errors if i started any other program while downloading at high speed. not anymore. [more text deleted] tom huot huot@cray.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9549">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9549" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 does anyone out there know if there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic kx-p1091i 9-pin dot matrix printer? i've been told that panasonic has uploaded some to compu$erve, but i don't have a cis account. i just use the epson fx-80 driver myself, and it comes out very pretty (if very slowly) on my 1080i. carl fink carlf@panix.com, c.fink4(genie), or cf427620i@liuvax.bitnet "facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence" -- john adams 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9550">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9550" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a .gif image into a .bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper (i.e. 256 colors). hopefully there's something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere... thanks in advance... scott -- look on ftp.cica.indiana.edu for gws.....zip. they embed the release number in the name, and i'm not sure what the lates is. it is graphics workshop. there is a dos and a windows version. both work great. i even had someone bring me some images from the amiga, and converted them to great looking wallpaper as 256-color .bmp files if you can't find it, repost, or let me know, and i'll dig up the archive. dave campbell | wynapse wynapse | wynapse@indirect.com | the shareware custom control source 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9552">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9552" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond 1024x768x256 driver? sorry, don't know the version of the driver (no indication in the menus) but it's a recently delivered gateway system. am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this. sporadically, yes. it seems to flicker, or change shape into snow briefly. not enough to impair functionality, just call attention to diamond's professional sloppiness. rob kudla@acm.rpi.edu keywords - oldfield jane's leather yes win3.1 phish light blue right bondage r.e.m. dtp steely dan ds9 fnm owl genesis in the spaceship, the silver spaceship, the lion takes control..... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9553">
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 i have an ibm and run windows 3.1. a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this. it loads automatically when i type "win", and surely adds to the (already dismally slow) process of starting up. i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program!! i have taken it out of win.ini, but it still pops up running with windows. i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw.ini, system.ini and progman.ini. removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows (progrman.ini has a "group 7 = ...ndw.exe..." which can't be deleted.) is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off?? thanks! chet **please email responses -- i can't read news from my home account*** chetter@ucthpx.uct.ac.za 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9554">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9554" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i just installed a new truetype font under ms-windows 3.1 but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen, quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly (on a laserjet 4 - non-postscript printer). when i use the font in coreldraw, the document prints correctly, so i assume coreldraw knows that the font has to be downloaded to the printer. but when i use the windows accessory write, the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font. yet, write does display the font correctly on the screen. i looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals, but got nowhere. all of them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly as you see them on the screen---so i assume windows knows that a font has to be downloaded automatically---but, how to make it do that???? appreciate any help.... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9555">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9555" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have an ibm and run windows 3.1. a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this. it loads automatically when i type "win", and surely adds to the (already dismally slow) process of starting up. i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program!! is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off?? 1. get the friend to uninstall it. 2. read the manual (though from your post i infer that you are using pirated software.) 3. go into sys.ini and change the shell= line to read shell=progman.exe daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9556">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9556" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic 5426 vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another... ...what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip. how are the experiences here.. have i done something wrong ? the 5426 has its own set of drivers. you may be using the drivers intended for the 5420 or 5422 by mistake. be sure you have the 5426 driver version 1.2 (i installed the mswin 3.1 multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card ?!) don't quote me on this one, but i'd steer clear of the multi resolution driver that allows you to change resolution without exiting windows. i think it's buggy. also if there are new(hopefully faster) drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them :-) (ftp or whatsoever :-) ) version 1.3 drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon. unfortunately, their not available via ftp, you have to dial up their bbs in the usa. i do this from nz using a 14.4k modem to cut down on phone bills. it took me around 7 minutes to download the v1.2 driver. good luck, andy gardner, wellington, new zealand te whanga-nui-a-tara, aotearoa 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9557">
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 [stuff about changing windows registration omitted] the damned thing anyway. this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries to write to the original floppies when you install; in some extreme cases you may not be able huh??? my copy of win 3.1 came on _permanently_ write-protected diskettes. (no sliding tabs). 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9558">
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 i've got a probelm with printing envelops on my deskjet 550c from word for windows. history: when i had a deskjet 500, i had to modify the macro so that it would disable reverse printing since there seemed to be a bug that interferred with printing envelops. that bug is still present, however... now: the problem i have is that my deskjet 550 print driver (came with the printer i bought in december) still wants to print the envelops in portrait mode. however, the deskjet 550 feeds envelops the from the narrow end (i.e. landscape mode). how do i get the printer to print the envelops in the correct orientation? please please please do not post this to the net since: (a) due to end of the semester cruch, i can't keep up on these groups, and (b) i will summarize the best answer(s) to the net anyhow! thanks in advance, craig stevenson 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9559">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9559" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have taken it out of win.ini, but it still pops up running with windows. i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw.ini, system.ini and progman.ini. removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows (progrman.ini has a "group 7 = ...ndw.exe..." which can't be deleted.) is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off?? one of the items in the group folder (typically called norton desktop applications) is labelled "norton desktop uninstall". need i say more! kris b. gupta - cardiothoracic imaging research center dept radiology - hospital of u of pennsylvania internet: kris@gynko.circ.upenn.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9560">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9560" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 here are some cool 3-d background patterns i made. edit your control.ini and add the following lines to your [patterns] section. bricks=148 43 86 172 89 182 99 201 tile=1 43 85 43 85 43 85 255 tile (diagonal)=148 107 54 156 73 182 99 201 slats=0 170 85 170 85 170 85 255 make sure your desktop color is one of the standard 16 colors or the patterns might not work. i like dark grey the best with these. if you have any cool one's of your own, please mail them to me. stefan powell - spowell@trentu.ca peterborough, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9562">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9562" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i just installed a new truetype font under ms-windows 3.1 but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen, quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly (on a laserjet 4 - non-postscript printer). but when i use the windows accessory write, the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font. yet, write does display the font correctly on the screen. this is a common problem with highly complex truetype fonts. microsoft admits to a problem with older versions of the postscript printer driver, but i've found it to be pretty generic. you can get around the problem by adjusting the parameter outlinethreshold in the [truetype] section of win.ini. this entry specifies the number of pels-per-em at which windows will render truetype fonts as outline fonts instead of as bitmap fonts. the default is 256. i've generally been able to get fonts to work by setting outlinethreshold=160. depending on your printer resolution and the point size you are using, you may need a different value. the windows resource kit warns against going above 300. presumably, that might cause fonts to print as square boxes or something. :-| (i'm not smiling.) bob nichols at&t bell laboratories rnichols@ihlpm.ih.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9570">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9570" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have two questions: 1) i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows. when i try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text disappears. i tried to center two lines once, and the second line disappeared. i can not find the error, and i do not know how to correct it. 2) is this the right newsgroup? where should i go? e-mail prefered... who else is still waiting for "naked gun part (pi) | | " '/''/'nathan'narloch''/''/''/'"alumn122@whscdp.whs.edu"/''/''/''/' /''/'(enforcer'burp)'/''/''/''or'/'"narlochn@kirk.msoe.edu"'/''/'' ''/''/milw,/wi/53207/''/'"join'the'official'psycho/team..."/''/''/ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9572">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9572" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have two questions: 1) i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows. when i try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text disappears. i tried to center two lines once, and the second line disappeared. i can not find the error, and i do not know how to correct it. 2) is this the right newsgroup? where should i go? e-mail prefered... who else is still waiting for "naked gun part (pi) | | " '/''/'nathan'narloch''/''/''/'"alumn122@whscdp.whs.edu"/''/''/''/' /''/'(enforcer'burp)'/''/''/''or'/'"narlochn@kirk.msoe.edu"'/''/'' ''/''/milw,/wi/53207/''/'"join'the'official'psycho/team..."/''/''/ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9573">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9573" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hello fellow 'netters. i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase, the canon bj200 (bubblejet) vs. the hp deskjet 500. i thought, rather than trust the salesperson, i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential. and, i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson. now, i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the 360 dpi of the canon bubblejet vs. the hewlett-packard deskjet 500 (300 dpi). which is faster? is there a noticeable print quality difference, particularly in graphics? which will handle large documents better (75 pages or more) -- any personal experience on either will be appreciated here? which works better under windows 3.1 (any driver problems, etc)? cost of memory, font packages, toner cartridges, etc? basically, your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable, both good and bad. advance kudos and thanks for all your input. e-mail or news posting is readily acceptable, but e-mail is encouraged (limits bandwidth). robert kayman ---- kayman@cs.stanford.edu -or- cpa@cs.stanford.edu "in theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they are not." "you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised?!?!" 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9576">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9576" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am using wfw 2.0c with a canon bj10e. the printer driver is that which comes with windows 3.1. unfortatunately, i am having a problem with printing page numbers on the bottom of the page. i can print page number on the top of the page, but not on the bottom. has anybody had a similar problem and/or does anybody have a solution for such a problem. pwoodcoc@business.uwo.ca pwoodcoc@sms.business.uwo.ca (c. patrick woodcock) western business school -- london, ontario 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9577">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9577" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'm investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework. i have come across a few that look good: zapp 1.1 from inmark zinc 3.5 from zinc software c++/views from liant win++ from blaise some considerations i'm using: being new to windows programming (i'm from the unix/x world), the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important. however, since i'm not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming, the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one. i don't believe arbitrary levels of abstraction, just for the sake of changing the api, are valuable. the microsoft founation classes (afx) that come with c/c++ 7.0 (and visual c++) are very good, they already have a version for nt, it comes with source code, and is very close to the navtive api. it also as some classes to manage data structures... ...stefan stefan olson mail: stefan@olson.acme.gen.nz kindness in giving creates love. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9578">
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 have you used mac system 6.x or 7.x? if the answer is positive, you would know if ms-windows is a "mature" os. days ago people doubted that ms-windows is not a real os. i can see why they have such question. ms-windows confuses many people. microsoft simulated mac, but it did a lousy job. for example: (1) you can not create hierarchy groups. there is no way to create a group in a group. (if you know how, please tell me.) (2) too many system parameters to take care of. (3) uncomplete documentation. it's not easy to find the reason why causes an unpredictable error. (4) group deleting/file deleting after deleting a group, users have to use file manager to delete files. but if users forget to delete some related files, the disk will be full of nonsense files. (5) share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing in some language (w/o good editor), there will be a sharing problem. you just can not open or save the program if it is loaded. it makes sense to prevent from saving, but not opening. microsoft try to compromise between dos and windows, but they just make ms-windows a graphical dos with capacity doing mutiple dos jobs; the worst thing is they complicate the environment. the orginal purpose of ms-windows should be to simplify the environment, and make pc easier to use. it's by no means easy to satisfy everybody, but if microsoft want to keep their reputations, they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute. no flame, please. e-mail:cyen@cs.unt.edu/ic43@sol.acs.unt.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9580">
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 (normal 8514/a font, not small). in the 386 enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my 14" monitor. is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window? you'll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer, since i am fairly new to ms windows world. ====== s. alavi [ssa@unity.ncsu.edu] (919)467-7909 (h) ======== first of all, without wanting to sound nagging and bossy, yes it is a trivial answer and that's perfectly fine ( otherwise how is one supposed to move up to the complicated and challenging questions, we net readers so much enjoy :) ?), and the massive crossposting of your article was not justified... please refer to appropriate newsgroups next time (by the way c.o.msw.misc is ok :) ). now as far as your problem is concerned: try playing around with the settings in the 'fonts..." dialog box under the window control menu (that little square at the top left corner of the window..). costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- opinions expressed are not necessarily oit's... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9584">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9584" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 well, the subject says just about all i intended to ask: is there no way to insert a 256 color into wfw 2.0 ? when i try it, the picture turns into a 16 color pic. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9586">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9586" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 have you used mac system 6.x or 7.x? if the answer is positive, you would know if ms-windows is a "mature" os. days ago people doubted that ms-windows is not a real os. i can see why they have such question. ms-windows confuses many people. microsoft [common complaints about ms windows deleted...] e-mail:cyen@cs.unt.edu/ic43@sol.acs.unt.edu hmmmm, why do i get the feeling that this is gonna start one of those endless threads 'mac vs win" and might even end up as "os/2 vs win". well, i dont know if windows is a mature os, if i have seen one (in which case that has to be x-windows :) ), but dont be so quick to judge... first of all to try to use plain vanilla windows is as courageous as to try to use plain vanilla dos. there are _lots_ of very nice commercial and shareware packages/utilities that will boost up windows past what ms itself thought possible :)... for example, norton desktop for windows 2.0 (a replace- ment for progman) will give you group-within-a-group capability and will even change group icons, it will launch progs by association (well, fileman does that too) or by dragging the file in the apps icon (now mac doesnt do that, huh? :) )... and the list goes on and on... now, windows _is_ kinda hard to finetune, boost and configure, but thats trhe price to pay for not paying $$$ to get a mac or an os/2 capable machine (an entirely differet story ...)... on the other hand if you dont like the idea of pm's icons not correspnding to the files themselves, well they are not supposed to :).. pm is a program _launching_ utility not a file manager... modify your settings to have fm as your shell and not pm, or get a couple of utilities from cica that supposedly give you a 'mac feel'... i dont wanna get in the discussion which is a better system: mac's are good in their own way -- they are _different_ not better or worse than win pcs-- (actually i am writing this from a mac lab as a user assistant - so dont think i am partial to win:) ) by all means check out the stuff in cica (ftp to ftp.cica.indiana.edu under the pub/pc/win3 subdir user: anonymous), or wait for startrek (mac's os on a pc !!! -- the threads we are gonna have then !!! :) )... just trying to avoid another mac-win war... costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- opinions expressed are not necessarily oit's... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9587">
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 i have a 486dx-33 computer with a soundblaster 1.0 card. i'm running microsoft windows v3.1. i have the sb driver set up properly to play normal sounds (.wav files, etc.). i want to play midi files through the media player that is included with windows. i know i have to set up the patch maps or something in the midi-mapper in the control panel. i know nothing about midi. (this is to be the way i'll get my feet wet.) how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files? david thomas dudek / v098pwxs@ubvms.bitnet \ __ _ the cybard state university / dudek@sun.acsu.buffalo.edu \ / `-' ) ,,, of new york / "if music be the food of love, \ | | ()|||||||[:::} @ buffalo / play on!" - wm. shakespeare \ `__.-._) ''' 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9588">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9588" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi there, i'm having a bizarre video problem within windows 3.1. i have a 286 with a gvga-16 video board. i've been using the standard windows vga driver with other similarly configured computers. i am thinking that my problem is with the way windows refreshes it's screen. the problem is that once windows has been envoked, the colors start changing themselves. at first i thought it was hardware, but if you open a full screen dos program from within the windows session, you don't have any problems until you get back to windows - however, when you initially return to windows, the original colors get refreshed properly. also, it is not a uniform color change - so if you are in solitaire, the design on the back of the card maintains it's original color scheme, but the white fronts of the cards will turn grey, then blue, etc. the color changes keep getting darker until finally everything is a dark purple-ish black. if you pop out to dos and exit back to windows - the screen gets refreshed again. if i don't log into windows and just do dos things from the novell network, everything is fine. i originally loaded the software by bouncing it down to the net from the other machine i had just finished configuring, then from the net to this machine. when i ran into problems, i deleted everything on this machine and the net, and tried bouncing it again. when that didn't work, i tried reloading windows to no avail. any thoughts on things to check out? i am totally baffled! thanks in advance for any assistance and instruction! linda cornell lcornell@u.washington.edu uw office of research 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9589">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9589" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 somewhere in this thread, it has been said that windows nt (tm) is a multi-user os, as well as multi-threading, etc. i certainly haven't seen this to be the case. there are seperate accounts for each person, and even seperate directories if that is desired. i don't see an implentation of simultaneuos use though. it certainly is multi-user. what i have seen from the march beta is that it doesn't yet come with the stuff which exploits multi-user features. i remember somebody from ms stating that it doesn't allow two users share one gui. my interpretation of this was that one user per console but all the networking and rpc based stuff you want. i believe ftp and rlogin deamons for nt systems will come from third party. somebody already has a beta version of an unsecure ftpd on the net. there is no reason why one cannot write a posix based shell like csh on unix for remote logins. in general i liked nt when i checked it out. it slow compared to win3.1 (just like any other real os). the beta version, although being slow, botts up much faster than my sun workstation. windows subsystems also start up a lot faster than x windows. i believe bill gates was right when he stated that nt was not for everybody. after playing around with it for a while i was convinced. if i owned a busines using a "business computer" from ibm or some other established vendor, i would consider moving to nt platform because it would provide a much cheaper solution (if you are running sql servers etc.). it provides the robustness such an application requires. on the other hand if you like your dos games, more or less forget about nt. you can always boot to dos but in general that defeats the purpose of using nt. most of nt's features are visible in a networked environment and in such an environment you can't reboot your machine at will. for personal use, i would rather wait for the win32 based windows release (whatever you name it) than jump to nt bandwagon. i expect most applications will keep on using win16 until win32 becomes widely available. sadun anik, u of illinois at urbana-champaign center for reliable and high-performance computing e-mail: anik@crhc.uiuc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9590">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9590" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have two questions: 1) i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows. when i try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text disappears. i tried to center two lines once, and the second line disappeared. i can not find the error, and i do not know how to correct it. 2) is this the right newsgroup? where should i go? e-mail prefered... i know you said e-mail preferred but because this is a common problem with wpwin i'll post it here. the screen only looks like the text is gone. usually you can just page-up then page-down and when it does a complete refresh the text reappears. i have had--on "rare" occasions--to completely exit (save first) the program. when i reopened the file, all chaos had been resolved. i don't know why it does this, but it is annoying. the graphics problems have now made me a word for windows user!! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9592">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9592" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there any one know: what is the ftp tool for windows and where to get the tool ? thanks for any help !! h.j. 1993,4,19 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9594">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9594" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 help, problem 486/33mhz hangs in extended mode trying to access drives a: or b: , sometimes it will do dir , sometimes will hang on access sometimes will when tying a text file. hardware: american megatrend motherboard ami bios 91 conner 85mb hard drive trident 1 meg svga please help!!! its ok in standard mode!!! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9597">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9597" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : i have an 8514/a card, and i am using windows in 1024x768 mode : (normal 8514/a font, not small). in the 386 enhanced mode : the dos window font is too small for my 14" monitor. is there a : way to spacify the font size for the dos window? you'll have to : excuse me if there is a trivial answer, since i am fairly new to : ms windows world. : thanks. : (please include this message for reference) : ====== s. alavi [ssa@unity.ncsu.edu] (919)467-7909 (h) ======== : (919)515-8063 (w) as i can recall, you can click on the upper left button of dos window, then choose font to change. also there is a demo window to show you in advance how the font you choose will affect the size of dos window. make a try! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9603">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9603" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hello everybody... are there any ftp-sites with wav-files available??? frode kvam :-) _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ (c) name: frode kvam univ: university of trondheim, dept of informatics e-mail: frode@ifi.unit.no snail-mail: lademoens kirkealle 8 7042 trondheim voice: + 47 7 50 45 06 *** beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers. *** 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9604">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9604" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them. does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location (probably at cica) kirk membry "our age is the age of industry" rutgers!viamar!kmembry - alexander rodchenko 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9606">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9606" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone used the number nine (# 9) video graphics adaptor with windows or windows nt? what do you think??? i just put one in my machine last week. i have an ast 486/66. i was getting ~10million winmarks with my diamond ss24, and the #9 board is doing ~20million winmarks. from my brief experiences with it, i'm very satisfied. btw, this is with win 3.1. marc snyder uucp: ...philabs!crpmks!marcs system administrator ciba-geigy corporation hawthorne, new york work: 914.785.2284 play: 914.347.6440 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9608">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9608" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 dear friend, the risc means "reduced instruction set computer". the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance. you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc. hmm... not that i am an authority on risc ;-) but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large. the difference is in addressing modes - risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc. | some people say it's fun, but i think it's very serious. | | eugene@macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9609">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9609" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 how do you set up an app to give its window a default start up position and size? mike hayes |"knowledge is good." - faber college motto www |"knowledge and thoroughness" -rensselear poly motto unemployed tech, |"no, thank you!" -groucho marx, 'a day at the races' driven to banging my head against engineering physics for 4 years. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9611">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9611" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am considering buying borland's paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows (i don't have/use one yet) for both work/home use. i would like to advantage of borland's "$129.95 until april 30" offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be. so, i was wondering ... has anybody used this and/or have any opinions? -- tom belmonte i've been using ms access (still available from some stores for $99.00) and i am quite pleased with it. it's relatively easy to learn, very easy to use and somewhat easy to program. i highly recomend it, particularly at $99.00! i have not used paradox for windows, but i don't expect it to be $30.00 better than access (imho). --dave 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9612">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9612" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a 386sx25 notebook with windows 3.1 running fine. winword 2.0 and quattro-pro for windows also work fine when no virtual memory is used. switching on the virtual memory option these programs (probably others too) don't work, the system crashes. the same programs work well with arbitrary virtual memory on two other desktop pc's. what am i doing wrong? if you can help, please mail to me directly, if possible. thank you very much in advance. | stefan k. kolodzie heinrich-heine-university | | institute for general psychology duesseldorf, germany | | e-mail: kolodzie@ze8.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9614">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9614" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi all, i'm asking for info on behalf of a friend. is there, what would be, the best way to copy the output of a monitor on to video tape? any ideas? please prescribe additional hardware and/or software? (i'm just assuming an intel/windows environment). thanks in advance. --jerry ||=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|| help support dam ||-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=|| || jerry w. johnson || struggling csci grad student || || jwjohn@ecst.csuchico.edu || (is there any other kind?) || ||=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|| mothers against dyslexia ||-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=|| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9617">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9617" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 somewhere in this thread, it has been said that windows nt (tm) is a multi-user os, as well as multi-threading, etc. i certainly haven't seen this to be the case. there are seperate accounts for each person, and even seperate directories if that is desired. i don't see an implentation of simultaneuos use though. since running any gui over a network is going to slow it down by a fair amount, i expect windows nt will be multiuser only in the sense of sharing filesystems. someone will likely write a telnetd for it so one could run character-based apps, but graphics-based apps will have to be shared by running the executables on the local cpu. this is how things are shaping up everywhere: client-server architectures are taking over from the old cpu-terminal setups. note that the next does this: you can always telnet into a next and run character-based apps but you can't run the gui. (yeah, i know about x-windows, just haven't been too impressed by it...).. iskandar taib | the only thing worse than peach ala internet: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | frog is frog ala peach bitnet: ntaib@iubacs ! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9618">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9618" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have an 8514/a card, and i am using windows in 1024x768 mode (normal 8514/a font, not small). in the 386 enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my 14" monitor. is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window? you'll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer, since i am fairly new to ms windows world. (please include this message for reference) ====== s. alavi [ssa@unity.ncsu.edu] (919)467-7909 (h) ======== (919)515-8063 (w) the control box of the window itself (upper left corner of the window, single click, am i being too simplistic?) has a font option. the 8 x 12 is about the biggest one i can use without the characters turning funky. hpoe this helps. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9619">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9619" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i really gives me pause to ask this: when i first heard of windows-nt i was surprised by the name because it immediately occurred to me that it sounds like a northern telecom product. did anyone else notice that? by the way, bnr (see address below) is an r&d subsidiary of nt. see what i mean? | gal@bnr.ca (gene a. lavergne) | in all of opera, i most identify | | esn 444-4842 / (214) 684-4842 | with the character of elektra. | | po box 851986, richardson, tx | that often worries me. | | usa 75085-1986 | opinions expressed here are mine and not bnr's. | windows nt or wnt can also be derived by the next letter in the alphabet of vms - same as hal and ibm. you might recall that the chief architect of vms is also chief designer of wnt. rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol - cfmu disclaimer: rajiev@cfmu.eurocontrol.be rue de la loi 72 these are *my* views, tel: +32 2 729 33 12 b-1040 bruxelles not my companies. fax: +32 2 729 32 16 belgium 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9625">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9625" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi all, has anybody tried to compile ctrltest from the mfc/samples directory, after compiling the mfc-libs with bwc ? seems to me, that bwc isn't able to distinguish pointers to overloaded for example, imagine the following 2 (overloaded) functions: void same_name ( void ) void same_name ( int ) after trying the whole day, i think, with bwc its impossible to take the adress of one of the above two functions and assign it to a properly defined function pointer. am i right ? has anybody else had this problem ? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9628">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9628" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hhhheeeellllpppp meeeeeee! i installed a 256 color svga driver for my windows last week. this driver was downloaded from ftp.cica.indiana.edu specifically for paradise svga card. however, after i installed it and when i run windows, the startup screen in the beginning becomes the old windows 3.0 startup screen ????!!??!! everything works fine except the startup screen. i know the startup screen must have been changed in the system.ini file (or is it ?) but i couldn't figure out what to alter! can some one help me with this? please e-mail to my address: thang@tree.egr.uh.edu or thang@jetson.uh.edu in addition, can anyone know where can i get a 1024x680 paradise svga driver (256 color) ? this is a used computer and i do not have anything (drivers, etc) regarding the driver.... thanks in advance.......;o) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9630">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9630" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 can someone out there tell me how to switch window's screen resolution quickly and easily? i know that i can go back into install to do it, sean l. gilley take a look at ftp.cica.indiana.edu at pub/pc/win3/(util?misc?) for a program caleld vswitch.zip.it's as close to want you want as you can get in win3.1 ... hope it helps... costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- opinions expressed are not necessarily oit's... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9631">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9631" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am looking for a win31 driver (or set) for my diamond speedstar 1mb video card. the diamond bbs has these. their 2400 baud bbs phone number is (408) 730-1100. their 9600 baud bbs phone number is (408) 524-9335. sorry, i don't know of any ftp site that has these (though i'd be surprised if there wasn't one). 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9632">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9632" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi, everybody: i guess my subject has said it all. it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows. so, i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share. or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files, like some scenery files, some animals files, etc.... i used to have some, unfortunately i delete them all. hmmm, let's see: i could upload some .bmp files (i have around 15 b/w and color ones), but i'd rather give you the fishing pole instead of the fish:here it goes: begginers guide to the coolest windows backgrounds: step 1: ftp to cica (ftp.cica.indiana.edu user:anonymous passwd: guest) cd to pub/pc/win3/(util?desktop?) and get one of these : wingif14.zip, pspro??.zip gws?????.zip . they will scale, dither and convert gifs to bmps. get the index file from the win3 subdir too for future reference... step 2: ftp to wuarchive.wustl.edu or plaza.aarnet.edu.au or archive.orst.edu and cd to graphics/gif get the index file... now gigabytes of pictures are waiting to become your desktop... advice: if you have a slow computer (<486dx w/4mb ram), make your bg b/w by selecting b/w dither in any of the abovementioned apps.. hope it helps... costas malamas ____________________________________________________________ georgia institute of technology oit ua -- opinions expressed are not necessarily oit's... internet: ccastco@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9634">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9634" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 as the subjects says, windows 3.1 keeps crashing (givinh me gpf) on me of late. it was never a very stable package, but now it seems to crash every day. the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently: ie i there is a way in sys.ini to turn off ram parity checking (unfortunately, my good windows references are at home, but any standard win reference will tell you how to do it. if not, email back to me.) that weird memory may be producing phony parity errors. danger is, if you turn checkling off, you run the slight risk of data corruption due to a missed real error. i had this very same problem, and did 'work around' by turning parity checking off, but that only worked while i was in windows, and the parity error would occur immediately after exiting windows, however,the problem turned out to be 3 chip simms vs 9 chip simms. i can't use 3 chip simms in my computer, and when i replaced them, the problem vanished, forever. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9635">
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 ...stuff deleted 1. does windows nt run on sun sparc server 490? 2. if the answer to question 1 is yes, does it run unix applications (such as sas for unix). 3. is windows nt a multiuser os? 4. when will windows nt be released? 5. is there any telephone number that i can call and get more info on win nt? thank you. minghua shan as far as i have read win nt will be supported on intel, dec alpha and the mips r4000 series of processors only. i do remember though reading a rumour about sparc support sometime in the future. i am not sure what you mean by running "unix applications". you would have to have sas for win nt (or maybe sas for win16 etc). i have read that ms will anounce avalaibility of win nt by end of may 93 (comdex spring). hope this helps. rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol - cfmu disclaimer: rajiev@cfmu.eurocontrol.be rue de la loi 72 these are *my* views, tel: +32 2 729 33 12 b-1040 bruxelles not my companies. fax: +32 2 729 32 16 belgium according to the april issue of pc magazine (pg. 139), and i quote, "eventually, windows nt is likely to be ported to every successful risc architecture. powerpc and hp's pa-risc are the two most likely candidates, with sparc somewhat less likely because of sun's relatively strong unix software base." 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9636">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9636" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them. does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location (probably at cica) as i remember it, the name of the program your looking for is called icofrite. cica was where i saw it last. it was quite a while ago. richard calderon: rcaldrn@epi.med.miami.edu* university of miami school of medicine * information systems computing * 1029 nw 15 st. * miami, florida 33136 * 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9638">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9638" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver? there's a "sound.exe" file that claims to be the driver but i'm suspicious since it's not a .drv file. alec lee 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9640">
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 adam benson mt. pearl, nf adamb@garfield.cs.mun.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9644">
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 hi there, is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory's .bmp files as the wallpaper file? nathan c. crowell, dept. of materials science/acrl worcester polytechnic institute e-mail: bigal@wpi.wpi.edu "a flower?"-genesis "supper's ready" 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9649">
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 don a.b. lindbergh meinte am 15.04.93 zum thema "diamond ss24x, win 3.1, mouse cursor": da> anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond 1024x768x256 da> driver? sorry, don't know the version of the driver (no indication in the da> menus) but it's a recently delivered gateway system. am going to try the da> latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this. no not at all. i'm using ss24x with bios 2.03 and driver from 13. januar '93. i've never had any problems with the mouse cursor. is there already a newer driver published? sebastian beer gimme gummi - lass die sau raus 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9651">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9651" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 dear friend, the risc means "reduced instruction set computer". the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance. you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc. hmm... not that i am an authority on risc ;-) but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large. the difference is in addressing modes - risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc. | some people say it's fun, but i think it's very serious. | | eugene@macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au | theoretically supposed to be reduced.... not any longer. that's why everyone is arguing about risc v.s. cisc. personally, i think cisc will win out. just take a look at the pentium! (not that i like intel architectures either, but that's another story...) bye! brian "hojo" lee | "hey, excuse me miss, could i have a .gif of you?" leebr@ecf.toronto.edu | leebr@eecg.toronto.edu | (try linux... the best and free un*x clone!) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9652">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9652" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i was wondering if anyone knew how to view a .eps in ms word 2.0a.. here are the first couple of lines if it helps... %!ps-adobe-3.0 %%creator: prowrite %%title: tcwn %%orientation: portrait %%pages: 12 %%pageorder: ascend can any one help? | james burke | by reading this you agree not to hold | | | the writer responsible for any evil | | jburke@abacus.bates.edu | happening that may befall you at any time. | we had a similar problem in converting a .eps file. the solution was simple. we changed the first line from %!ps-adobe-3.0 to %!ps-adobe-2.0 this fouled the converter, the .eps file only contained very simple move and draw statements. mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email: rioj7@fel.tno.nl the hague the netherlands "if all else fails, show pretty pictures and animated videos, and don't talk about performance", david bailey 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9654">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9654" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i downloaded the compuserve gif of the month. a raytraced image of a golf ball next to a hole. very nice, 640x480x256 bitmap, easily converted to a windows bmp. if anyone wants, i could upload a copy on cica... please do...and let us know specifics. (lest i'm the only one on this). pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9655">
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 hi there, is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory's .bmp files as the wallpaper file? [nate's sig] there are a couple. i am personally using screenpeace, which is a screen saver which will also select your wallpaper from a specified directory (not necessarily the windows dir.). let me know if you want info. i've been pretty happy with screenpeace, and the latest version (3) is *not* at cica, but oak, /windows3/scrpc3or.something pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9656">
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 : hello all you windows freaks out there. : i bought windows 3.1 (dutch version) some time ago, and run it on a : 286. i recently upgraded my computer to a 486dx33, 256k cache, 4m memory, : 212m maxtor hd. works real fine, but not with windows. : when playing patience (sol) or minesweeper, suddenly the system hangs: : - i just can't move my mouse anymore. : or : - screen goes blank, nothing further : or : - screen goes blank, computer seems to reboot, but stops before reaching : the end of the memory test. : once (or maybe even twice) i got a message about some illegal kernel call : or something (accompanied by a hex adress) and a close-button. when pressing : it, the application wouldn't close, though. : i haven't experienced this problem with other programs than these, but that's : mainly because i haven't really used other programs. i suspect them to hang : too. : anything known about this problem. (or, better, any patches available?) : oh, forgot to tell, if, in cmos ram, i make the computer faster (higher : bus speed, less wait states, enable both caches etc), the crash comes : faster (after 10 min. or so). if i deliberately slow the system down : (slow bus speed, wait states, disable internal/external cache, no : shadowing) the crash comes later, but comes. : hope anyone can help. : wouter. i got a problem too, with a 486dx2-66 vlb, 4 mb ram, 170mb disk. sometimes, when i switch on the computer, it starts windows (3.1 dutch) windows switches to 1024x768, switches back to text-mode and exits to dos. after one or two resets, the system works fine... vu amsterdam 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9657">
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 i have a 486/66mhz sys based pc with 8m ram and a problem. what is the best way to configure high memory with qemm/386max ?? i have a speedstar 24x video card and use hyperdisk disk cache software. the problem is running windows 3.1 in enhanced mode and having any high memory to load stuff high? note : i tried, as recommended to exclude the region a000-c7ff but windows insists on starting in standard mode. any suggestions? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9658">
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 now does anyone know if it is possible to use w4wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time. yup. we're using both and they work just fine. hopefully, someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip. right now we have to load netbeui. i use odi with odinsup and all works well. hey, sounds great. does that mean that w4wg works with odi? i thought it uses ndis. my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs, so i'd hate to have to load many more drivers to make w4wg work i read in a german computer magazine that tcp/ip support for w4wg is just around the corner. anybody have any news about this? regards, richard | dr. richard spitz | internet: spitz@ana.med.uni-muenchen.de | | edv-gruppe anaesthesie | tel : +49-89-7095-3421 | | klinikum grosshadern | fax : +49-89-7095-8886 | | munich, germany | | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9659">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9659" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 now does anyone know if it is possible to use w4wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time. yup. we're using both and they work just fine. hopefully, someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip. right now we have to load netbeui. i use odi with odinsup and all works well. hey, sounds great. does that mean that w4wg works with odi? i thought it uses ndis. my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs, so i'd hate to have to load many more drivers to make w4wg work i read in a german computer magazine that tcp/ip support for w4wg is just around the corner. anybody have any news about this? regards, richard ps: i possibly caused a dupe with this message. if this message was spread twice outside of munich, please send me a short note. it would help me debug my news application. | dr. richard spitz | internet: spitz@ana.med.uni-muenchen.de | | edv-gruppe anaesthesie | tel : +49-89-7095-3421 | | klinikum grosshadern | fax : +49-89-7095-8886 | | munich, germany | | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9660">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9660" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory's .bmp files as the wallpaper file? there are a couple. i am personally using screenpeace, which is a if you need just to change the wallpaper, then i've written a short program in vb that does this by using systemparametersinfo-function. the bad news is that you need vbrun200.dll to run it, and the dll is some 350kb (the program is about 7kb). the order of pictures depends on the system date and the number of bmp-files in the directory, so the picture remains the same if you execute the program multiple times during the same day and the number of bmps has not changed. if you feel this is what you need then i could uuencode it and email it to you. (it is unavailable via ftp.) | ismo k{rkk{inen / 109740@joyl.joensuu.fi / iak@cs.joensuu.fi | | ph'nglui mglw'nafh cthulhu r'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9661">
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 i nead a utility for updating (deleting, adding, changing) *.ini files for windows. do i find it on any ftp host? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9667">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9667" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i just got a copy of tobias' managing your money v9.0. i have quicken 6, and it's wonderful for some things, but mym seems to have some features that q6 doesn't. for example, q6 doesn't seem to be able to handle monthly automatic deductions from a checking account (you know, a monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from my checking account). or is there something that i'm not doing right, and q6 can actually do that? i have never used mym so i can not help you with the comparison of the two products. i am, however, a devoted quicken user, and i can tell you how to set up the weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly transactions. first use the memorize feature (ctrl-m) to record the recurring transactions. next, define a transaction group which uses these memorized transactions and specify the frequency that it should be used (i.e. monthly). quicken will/can not automatically make the transactions for you, but now all you do is recall the group and all of the individual transactions will be entered at once. additionally if you are using the bill minder, it will remind you when each transaction group is due. for example, you could have three transaction groups. one for payments at the beginning of the month, middle of the month, and one for quarterly payments. i hope this helps. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9668">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9668" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 software that comes together with the videoblaster is designed to work together with the soundblaster (from the same manufacturer). since i do not own a soundblaster: is there a possibility to use the pc speaker driver to play audio files for the videoblaster (.avi = audio video interleave files) ? i think what i should have is a device driver for the media player that controls the pc speaker driver instead of the soundblaster card (something like mcispkr.drv). has anybody heard of such a driver? or am i on the wrong track? any information on this appreciated! (please send e-mail, since i don't watch this group regularly.) _v_ | joerg meyer / \ | e-mail: j_meyer@informatik.uni-kl.de |o o| | university of kaiserslautern, germany ooo--u--ooo | ------- this space for rent ! ------- 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9669">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9669" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a small windows program which i can not get to work; the program looks vaguely like this: char f1[80]; int winmain(... lstrcpy ((lpstr)f1, "hello"); long far pascal wndproc(... lstrcpy ((lpstr)f1, "hello"); i am using large model under windows 3.1; after linking without errors, the rc program said sorting preload segments and resources into fast-load section copying segment 1 (53679 bytes) rc : fatal error rw1031: segment 1 and its relocation information is too large for load optimization. make the segment loadoncall or rerun rc using the -k switch if the segment must be preloaded. using the -k switch seems to interfere with the proper function of the second lstrcpy call... can anybody explain what is going on and/or how to fix it? thanks... pugsley (dpugsle@nswc-wo.nswc.navy.mil) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9674">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9674" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 please excuse if faq but... new trident 8900cl based card claims to have 1280x1024 support. drivers with card indicate several 1280x1024 drivers on diskette. windows 3.1 does not make all drivers on diskette available to configuration dialog box. any suggestion? thanx; please e-mail. dfeldman@uswest.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9675">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9675" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi! anyone knows how can i change an icon forever and ever?????? i mean, not only in the program manager... thanks in advance! alejandro cifuentes h. acifuent@isluga.puc.cl 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9678">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9678" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i'd have a look at the maximum resolution the combination of the video card and screen would have without flickering. i'd only suggest using the color screen if it does 800*600 without flickering. if this is not too small for your tastes at a 14".... personally i'd prefer the mono-screen as i always have quite a few windows open. if you only run one program at a time or rarely switch maybe the color 'surplus' is worth trading in the smaller size. if you want to develop programs you will always have to check the colors. i used a 14" mono screen (worst of both worlds) and was surprised how the colors looked i choose on a color screen. olaf winkelhake 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9683">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9683" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have 16mb of memory on my 386sx. i have been running windows without a swap file for several months. will mathcad 4.0 be happy with this, or insist on a swap file? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9687">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9687" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have 16mb of memory on my 386sx. i have been running windows without a swap file for several months. will mathcad 4.0 be happy with this, or insist on a swap file? i just got mathcad 4.0, and the manual is not clear on the matter. on page 8: * at least 4 megabytes of memory. all memory about 640k should be configured as xms. * at least 8 megabytes of virtual memory.... common sense suggests that you should be able to run it (4+8=12 < 16) but the new mathcad is kinda kooky, and thus is not subject to the laws of common sense... daniel matthew coleman | internet: dcoleman@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu -----------------------------------+---------- : dcoleman@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu the university of texas at austin | decnet: utxvms::dcoleman electrical/computer engineering | bitnet: dcoleman@utxvms [.bitnet] 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9688">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9688" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 we here at utah state university cooperative extension have been using w4wg for a while now. we wanted to talk to the internet with the mail package so we got the smtp gateway. you also need a tcp/ip transport package on top of that which is utterly stupid but that's what they require to get the smtp gateway to work. you need a dedicated pc for the gateway and if you are looking at remote access you need another dedicated pc for the remote mail stuff. we do not have the remote mail going but you indicate that that is what you want to do. there is a glitch somewhere in the system though. i don't know if it is ms mail, the gateway or the vax here on campus that is choking in the mail that is sent. the scenario is this. the outgoing mail goes to a unix system which then routes the mail where it needs to go. if that mail is routed to the vax, the vax has problems some times receiving the mail. most messages do get through this way except if someone has there mail on the vax forwarded to some other location. that is the main gotcha. where ever the mail is forwarded to that person gets a message header then a message saying "boudary:= (error garbage code stuff)". if you can stay away from sending to a vax you are ok. the system people of course say that the vax is not the problem, the gateway is probably the problem. if anyone wants to get help it is only $175.00 for one support call. (until problem is worked out) phooey to that i say. i am looking vigorously for a better idea. if you go forward on any of this and find out anything knew, please drop me a note - anyone. the next itteration is supposed to have tcp/ip built in they say........ the netxt itteration of w4wg good luck!!!!! wes james email: wesj@extsparc.agsci.usu.edu utah state university cooperative extension systems specialist umc 4900 voice: (801)750-2229 logan, ut 84322-4900 fax: (801)750-3268 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9691">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9691" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i've been reading, with much confusion, about whether or not to use atmanager. lately, all the packages i've been buying have all included atmanager as a "bonus" i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw. coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over 200 diff types. add that to the ttfonts that come with win31 and you have a decent amount of fonts. i print my creations out on an hp4 postcript, at 600 dpi resolution with the "resolution enhancement technology" and .. well ... i get some darn good copies. so good that there isn't any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not. is it worth it to run atm at all? especially with these better printer technologies ... and tt? -- avdean 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9694">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9694" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 are there any x window servers that can run under ms-windows?? i only know of deskview but have not seen it in action. are there any others?? thanks in advance. pmw0@lehigh.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9696">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9696" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 sorry, i did`nt tell exactly what i need. i need a utility for automatic updating (deleting, adding, changing) of *.ini files for windows. the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows. i will use the utility for updating the win.ini (and other files) on meny pc`s. do i find it on any ftp host? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9697">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9697" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 can someone out there tell me how to switch window's screen resolution quickly and easily? i know that i can go back into install to do it, take a look at ftp.cica.indiana.edu at pub/pc/win3/(util?misc?) for a program caleld vswitch.zip.it's as close to want you want as you can get in win3.1 ... i think george is referring to switch.zip in the ~ftp/pub/pc/win3/drivers/video directory. description reads -- switcher: windows video mode switcher. david white (engineer, goon fan & son of my dad) internet davidw@auck.irl.cri.nz fax +64 9 443-4737 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9701">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9701" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 preface: i am a novice user at best to the windows environment. i am trying to execute a ms c++ 7.0 executable program which accesses a btrieve database to build an ascii file. when i execute it under windows the screen goes blank and my pc locks up. the only way for me to return is to reset the machine. does anyone have any insight on what i may have to do in order for the program to correctly under windows? (by the way it runs fine in dos 5.0) system: gateway 486/dx250 ati graphics ultra card 640x480 any help would be greatly appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9704">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9704" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 |hi, everybody: | i guess my subject has said it all. it is getting boring |looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows. so, |i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file |i can share. or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for |some bmp files, like some scenery files, some animals files, |etc.... i used to have some, unfortunately i delete them all. |anyway could me give me some help, please??? in response to a "different" kinda wallpaper, here's what i use. i think the original gif/whatever was called "not_real". the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner. you will need vga i think, and i have this sized for 800x600 256 color screens. use this in your windows directory and do not tile it. hope you enjoy. begin ----------------------- cut here --------------- begin 666 ntreal.bmp m0dtv5p< #8$ h ( , %@" ! @ m $ ! @@p![( @ "!a> #!_f #cd ,56# #d. !=>_d m4pa: &4h@p"l,1 $u); &n+l0 ($!@ +4wa !,j.0 b/%h 9tj3 $kkzp 0 m,;, td4i /zgb0!)#uh (0a. 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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9705">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9705" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : >>dear friend, : >> the risc means "reduced instruction set computer". the risc usually has : >>small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase : >>the clock rate to have a high performance. you can read some books about : >>computer architecture for more information about risc. : >hmm... not that i am an authority on risc ;-) but i clearly remember : >reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large. : >the difference is in addressing modes - risc instruction sets are not : >as orthogonal is cisc. the original riscs had small instruction sets, and simple ones. the idea was that a) every instruction should be completable in a single clock cycle and b) to have no microcode and c) extensive pipelines. a few comparisons (from patterson: reduced instruction set computers. cacm v28. 1, 1985): cpu year instructions microcode ibm 370/168 1973 208 420kb dec vax 11/780 1978 303 480kb ibm 801 1980 120 0 ucb risc 1 1982 39 0 stanford mips 1983 55 0 while researching for the vlsi vax, dec discovered that 60% of the vax microcode is there to support 20% of the instruction set which accounted for a mere 0.2% of all instructions executed. the uvax 32 subsetted the architecture onto a single chip and used a software emulator for these very complex instructions, the full vlsi uvax included the entire instruction set, was 5-10 times more copmlex but only ranm 20% faster. cpu chips microcode transistors uvax 32 2 64k 101k vlsi uvax 9 480k 1250k real: deryk barker, computer science dept., camosun college, victoria b.c. email: (dbarker@camosun.bc.ca) phone: +1 604 370 4452 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9707">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9707" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 word 2.0c doesn't show the period-centred character to indicate spaces if i use the ttfonts from coreldraw. our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box. they overlap each other and characters on each side, which is useless. i believe the character used by w4w is the period-centred (0183). this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this. i have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the 0183 character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w4w. altering the paragraph (0182) or cedilla (0184) does alter their font graphics displayed however!! is the w4w character used to indicate spaces the period-centred character? has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a coreldraw ttf? russ sharp russ@deakin.edu.au ph (052)27 1141 fax (052)27 2015 \ / deakin university, school of engineering & technology, geelong, australia \/ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9708">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9708" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi, it's an *easy* question for you windows gurus. i'd appreciate any help. we need to write an on-line help for our application. we don't have windows software developer's toolkit (yet :-) ). since we just want to build a .hlp file around windows' help engine, i hope it won't be that complicated? anyway, could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on-line help, if it does not take 100 pages to explain? or if it is complicated, would you help to point out what i would need to do it? vincent q. yin umyin@ccu.umanitoba.ca if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc.exe or hc31.exe file to compile and generate .hlp files out of .rtf files. rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w4w. you do not need the sdk. what you need (and can get free) are location: ftp.cica.indiana.edu index: /pub/pc/win3/index first get /pub/pc/win3/uploads/what.zip (~1.3m) this contains the help compiler among other things. it is free from microsoft. then get these (i think these are free too) dir: /pub/pc/win3/programr files: hag.zip, whag.zip wfwhlp.zip these are shareware dir: /pub/pc/win3/util files: hwab21.zip, qdhelp.zip, qdtool.zip dir: /pub/pc/win3/winword files: drhelpev.zip (macros for word 2.0 to convert doc to hlp files). shiva shenoy | e-mail: shenoy@iastate.edu 2066 black,dept of aeem,isu,ames,ia 50010 | office: (515)-294-0082 shiva shenoy | e-mail: shenoy@iastate.edu 2066 black,dept of aeem,isu,ames,ia 50010 | office: (515)-294-0082 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9709">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9709" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 here is an annoying problem. whenever i save an icon which contains dark colors like dark red or dark purple, these colors are converted to the bright colors. this happens with every icon editor including the image editor that came with sdk. i don't have this problem with .bmp files either; only with .ico files or icon libraries. the problem is with the icon colormap field in the icon file header. checking the file with a binary editor, i can see that the masks are ok. by editing the colormap manually (copying from another icon that i didn't edit) i can fix the colors. does anybody know what may be causing this problem? sadun anik, u of illinois at urbana-champaign center for reliable and high-performance computing e-mail: anik@crhc.uiuc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9711">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9711" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : sorry, i did`nt tell exactly what i need. : i need a utility for automatic updating (deleting, adding, changing) of *.ini files for windows. : the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows. : i will use the utility for updating the win.ini (and other files) on meny pc`s. : do i find it on any ftp host? : svein well, in the latest windows magazine, there is an advertisement for a program that will help you uninstall windows apps from your harddisk (uninstaller) but it can be used to update a network, but only for deleting, not adding or changing their *.ini files. (uninstaller, by microhelp inc. $79 1-800-922-3383) i am also looking for an *.ini updater for my pc network, and so far without any luck. so for the time being i have been pushing dos and it's batch language to its limit...look into dos 5.0's (i am assumming that dos 6.0 has the same command, maybe even more..or less..improved) replace command. i use this to update our users personal files with a master set in a batch file that is run everytime they invoke windows. this basically overwrites their color schemes, but does what i need it to do. not neat, but does the job...i'm looking for a better solution though. just relaying what i know...a not for profit service. mike bendtsen (msbendts @ mtu.edu) 740 elm st. apt#4 ccli senior technical consultant hancock, mi 49930 michigan technological university 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9717">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9717" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card. is only in windows. i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers. also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf.drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup. i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application. these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs. what a hassle. running on gateway 2000 dx2/50. thx dave l i have used both version 1.17 drivers for win 3.1 and the new 2.03 drivers. i have had none of these problems. no gpf's at all. i have a feeling that your problems are not with the card or drivers. the ati ultra drivers are considered some of the most reliable on the market, and the ss 24x ones seem quite good as well. maybe you should check bios problems in your gateway. i know a few people with gateway dx2's, and all of them have found some problem or other with compatibility -- especially with graphics. the only gpf's i have ever had can be directly attributable to using/ abusing applications. i even got the newest drivers from diamond when people started complaining. i still only have one small problem with them, and it is that the hardware cursor is slightly jumpy during writes/ reads to the swap file. greg bishop. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9719">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9719" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for a decent windows news reader. i've given up on winvn 0.76 since it doesn't work very well with the winsock.dll of the ibm tcp/ip for dos 2.1. what the status of trumpet for windows? will it use the windows sockets ? i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring (results in invalid class error :( bye! wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel: ++32 (0)16/28.57.16 departement t.e.w. fax: ++32 (0)16/28.57.99 dekenstraat 2 b-3000 leuven e-mail: wimvh@liris.tew.kuleuven.ac.be belgium fdbaq03@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9722">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9722" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 |> >unless i am completely misunderstanding you, try using either notepad or |> >sysedit.exe (found in your system subdirectory) to edit you .ini files. |> you can add sysedit (& regedit) to a program group... they are windows |> programs. |> >the sysedit.exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win.ini, |> >system.ini, autoexec.bat and config.sys files to be edited. |> is it possible to get it to load other *.ini files ???? no. when the program is run, it loads 4 configuration files; autoexec.bat, config.sys, win.ini, and system.ini. there is no open entry on the file menu. you can only edit these four files. if you need to edit some other program's .ini file, use notepad or some other ascii editor. i wonder whether microsoft intended for sysedit to be used, or if it was just a holdover from the testing period and they forgot to take it out. the reason i think this is because there is absolutely no mention in the manuals about this program, and there is no online help for it (just an about entry under the file menu). the program looks like something that was intended for internal use only. it's kind of a shame, though. it would have made a nice multi-file replacement for notepad. daniel silevitch dmsilev@athena.mit.edu massachusetts institute of technology 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9724">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9724" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 what the status of trumpet for windows? will it use the windows sockets ? i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring (results in invalid class error :( while i do not speak for peter tattam, i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version. while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet, it will follow on shortly thereafter. currently wintrumpet is in very late beta. it looks like an excellent product, with several features beyond the dos version. wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp, novell lwp, and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis_pkt shim. ashok aiyar mail: ashok@biochemistry.cwru.edu department of biochemistry tel: (216) 368-3300 cwru school of medicine, cleveland, ohio fax: (216) 368-4544 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9726">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9726" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi there, we are running a 120 node token ring with windows 3.1 and novell 3.11. every once in a while, we run into "the black screen of death", a phrase coined by robert x. cringely in a recent infoworld column. basically, sometimes when you quit windows, the screen goes black and you get a nice little flashing cursor in the top left corner of your screen. also, sometimes when you exit to dos, the same effect occurs. cringely hints that microsoft and/or novell has a patch for windows' virtual interrupt controller that may solve this. neither company seems to know what i am talking about when i call them. has anyone else noticed this phenomenon? is there a fix for it? any response is welcome. peter sweeney psweeney@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9729">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9729" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver? there's a "sound.exe" file that claims to be the driver but i'm suspicious since it's not a .drv file. thats the file... to clarify a little more: sound.exe is a self-expanding archive which contains the driver (which is actually called speaker.drv, i think). 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9730">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9730" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 reposting and summarizing, for your information or additional comment. *** this is long *** i have 16mb of memory on my 386sx (25 mhz), an intel math coprocessor, and a 120mb hard drive with 20mb free (no compression). i have been running mathcad 3.1, under windows 3.1 in enhanced mode, with a 5mb ram drive, 2mb/1mb smart drive, and no swap file (permanent or temporary) for several months. i am interested in the faster mathcad 4.0, but i am concerned about reported swap file requirements and the legitimacy of mathsoft's claim about increased to 386sx users: will mathcad 4.0 run without a swap file, or insist that i use a swap file? so far, in response to a less detailed description of my setup, or in unrelated postings, the more informed answers, on the net or by e-mail, appear to be: 1) by fuess@llnl.gov (david a. fuess) >> according to mathsoft, no. mathcad uses the swap file extensively so as not to overburden the physical resources. they say this is actually a win32s feature. a figure of 10mb was indicated to me as a minimum. but you might try anyway! 2) by bert.tyler@satalink.com (bert tyler) >> i'm not all that certain that mathcad is the culprit here. i have a 486/66dx2 with 16mb of main memory (less 2mb for a ramdisk and a bit for a dos session that is opened as part of the startup process), which i have been running without any swapfile. when i installed the win32s subsystem from the march beta of the nt sdk, the win32s subsystem itself demanded the presence of a swapfile. the only win32s program i've run to date is the 32-bit version of freecell that came with that i gave windows a small temporary swapfile (i'm leery of files that must remain in fixed locations on my hard disk), and all seems well. 3) by bca@ece.cmu.edu (brian c. anderson) >> what is win32? i upgraded to mathcad 4.0 and it installed a directory for win32 under \windows\system . during the upgrade it told me that win32 was required. 4) by case0030@student.tc.umn.edu (steven v case-1) >> mathcad 4.0 makes use of the win32s libraries. you've probably heard about win32s, it is a 32-bit windows library that provides much of the windows nt functionality (no support for threads and multitasking and such) but can be run under windows 3.1. 5) by rhynetc@zardoz.chem.appstate.edu (thomas c. rhyne) >> i also have 16 mb of ram, and indeed mathcad 4.0 insisted on a permanent swapfile; it would not run otherwise. 6) by bishop@baeyer.chem.fsu.edu (greg bishop) >> 3) mathcad absolutely requires 4mb ram (with 12mb swap file) or 8mb ram (with 8mb swap file). it will give you a not enough memory error if the swap file is less than 8mb. it is a major resource hog. if you do not load the symbolic processor or the smart math, it takes about 5mb of ram (real or virtual) just to load (again, due to the win32s libraries. * so it seems that in addition to the system requirements shown on mathsoft's * * advertisement for 4.0, that you need a swap file, possibly as big as 12mb. * * looks like i would just need an 8mb swap file, and would need to choose (or * * can i?) between a faster permanent swap file, or a slower temporary swap file* * apparently a win32 subsystem ships with mathcad 4.0 - how much disk space * * does this require? * i also received these answers: 1) by mfdjh@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (dale hample) >> if you've got 16 megs of ram, why not configure 10megs as a ram disk for mathcad? dos 6 permits different bootup configurations. * can mathcad 4.0 + win32 be configured to use such a ram drive instead of a * * swap file? if not, i don't see how using dos 6.0 for an alternate bootup * * would provide windows with this swap file. some time back i remember a * * discussion about the issues of using a ram drive to support a swap file, * * but i thought this involved slower, < 8mb systems. * * i have dos 6.0 but for various reasons have not yet done a full installation.* * by the way, is a full installation of dos 6.0 required to avail oneself of * * the "alternate bootup" feature? which files from the installation disks are * * required? * 2) by wild@access.digex.com (wildstrom) >> presumeably, you mean without a _permanent_ swap file. if windows needs a swap file, it will upo and create one if a permanent one doesn't exist. permanent is generally faster though. i don't know why mathcad wouldn't be happy with either type--ver. 3.0 is and so should any program conforming to the win specification. * so far, 16mb has been enough ram to avoid the overhead of running any swap * * file - i have been running mathcad 3.1 under windows 3.1 without one. * 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9731">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9731" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 can anyone tell me how chicago/windows 4 would differ from os/2 2.x? believe it or not, i'm not trying to start a flame war, here. i'm simply curious if there is going to be any feature advantage in either of these products (i do not consider the fact that it has uncle bills seal of approval much of a feature...) one difference will _probably_ be the same difference as between os2 and windows 3.x now--one will likely have a lot of software available for it and one won't (emulation, with the inevitable incompatibilities that crop up in spite of all the contrary claims, just doesn't count when you _have_ to use a certain software package that doesn't quite run properly under the emulation...). developers want to channel their resources toward a platform that has a large installed base, and in a case like that the platform that is most successfully _marketed_ (regardless of its relative sophistication) will win. lamont downs downs@nevada.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9733">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9733" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 not on my system. frank calloway nor mine, either of them! | _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | david a. fuess | | _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ | dir, center for eecs | | _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ | phone: (510)423-2436 | | _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ | fax: (510)422-9343 | +-------- lawrence livermore national laboratory --------+ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9734">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9734" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi. i am having some interesting problems with my boca graphics card, which is based on the cirrus logic chipset (i am not sure exactly which one). the problem is as follows: if i use any windows driver at 800x600 except for the 64k-colour driver (ie 16 colour or 256 colour), the image on screen becomes too tall - no amount of resizing on the monitor will make it fit. and if i use excel with the 64k- colour driver, it hangs as soon as it loads. anyone out there used this card/experienced anything similar. please reply by mail, and i will post any solutions here. | simon bernstein | "man is condemned to be free" (sartre) | | university of natal, durban +--------------------------------------------+ | bernstei@shrike.und.ac.za | simonfish on irc | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9735">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9735" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone had experience with the new greenleaf commlib 4.0? i can't even get their demo winterm to run at 4800 baud without dropping characters. tnx, steve steve alpert (w1ggn) idx systems corp. boston, massachusetts < \--------------------------- sra @ idx.com ------------------------------/ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9736">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9736" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently. usually, the line at the bottom of the filemanager (the status bar, i guess) displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection. if i select a whole bunch of files, i will get an exact byte count. recently, i notice it incorrectly displays this count; it's truncating! if i select a file that is, say, 532 bytes, it correctly displays '532 bytes'. if i select select a file that is 23,482 bytes, it displays '23 bytes', not 23 kbytes, just 23 bytes! if i select 893,352 it will report only 893 bytes in the selection. if i select over a meg worth of files, say 3,356,345 it reports 3 bytes! it's as if it's got a problem with displaying more than 3 characters! my system: 486dx/33, 8m memory, stacker 3.0, dos 5, win 3.1. i've run the latest virus scanners (scan102, f-prot) and they didn't report anything. could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger? _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ nicholas masika, masika@bnr.ca _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ bell-northern research, ottawa _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ (613) 765-4893 / fax:765-4309 _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ opc development operations 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9737">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9737" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 while running the ms quick c compiler in a dos window under windows 3.1 this evening, i got a "program has violated system integrity... close all applications, exit windows and restart your computer" error. gawd, i love windows :-) 1) is there an easy way to restore everything to working order? what might be some better approaches? you'll probably want to delete any damaged executables and reload them fresh. data files should be examined and repaired. 2) what might have caused this? does the smartdrv cache make me more vulnerable? (i'm suspicious of hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing.) you're not stupid. smartdrive caches things, and windows also runs a swap file which may contain data also. all of this is pretty risky stuff in a pc environment. the straightforward approach would be to run chkdsk with the /f option to fix the disk and then it looks like i would probably have to reinstall windows and a few other things. a reasonably accurate prediction... here's a brief description of how dos stores files: there are three pieces to a file. the directory entry, the fat chain, and the data area. you can think of these as a sheet of lined notebook paper, a sheet of graph paper, and a stack of 3x5 cards. the directory entry (notebook paper) holds the file name, actual size, and first cluster number. it also holds some other information that's not important right now. the file allocation table (fat) chain (graph paper) tells where to find the actual data. each square of graph paper holds a number. if the number is zero, the cluster associated with this box is available. if it holds a "magic" number, it is either the last piece of a file or a bad (unuseable) spot on the disk. any other number tells which cluster contains the next section of the file. the data area (3x5 cards) is where the actual information is stored. the data area is organized as clusters of a fixed size; storage is doled out in "chunks" of one cluster each. (in your case, one cluster is 2048 bytes.) as a cluster is filled, another is allocated. to read a file, you first look at the directory entry to get the starting cluster number. now you read the data from that cluster. next, look at the fat entry for the cluster you just read. this will tell you the cluster number for the next chunk of the file. naturally, these numbers are usually sequential, but they can jump around and even go backwards. continue reading, one cluster at a time, as you walk this chain through the fat, until you hit the marker which says it's the last cluster in the file. chkdsk is the dos utility that checks the sanity and coherence of the directories and the fat and can bludgeon most flaws into submission. it doesn't have any intelligence, so you have to double-check anything it "fixes". now let's do a bit of a post-mortem: c:\gfx\vpic46\cvpic.exe c:\gfx\vpic46\vpic.txt c:\gfx\vpic46\video7.cfg c:\gfx\vpic46\orcpro2.cfg c:\gfx\vpic46\vga.cfg c:\game\goose\bird2.x c:\winmisc\adv21\winadv.exe allocation error, size adjusted all of these files have sizes (according to the fat) which don't match the size reported in their directory entries. chkdsk /f will alter the directory entries to match the fat size. (in other words, the directory entry for cvpic.exe may say the file is 64,877 bytes long. but chkdsk found a fat chain of 43 clusters attached to it. (my numbers, obviously, are made up.)) 316 lost allocation units found in 224 chains. 647168 bytes disk space would be freed disk space was found which is allocated in the fat, but is not attached to any directory entry. chkdsk /f gives you the option of converting these "lost chains" to files. you can then examine the files (file0000.chk through file0223.chk) and rename or discard them. or, if you tell chkdsk _not_ to convert them to files, then those clusters will simply be marked "available" in the fat. c:\gfx\vpic46\cvpic.exe is cross linked on allocation unit 16133 c:\386spart.par is cross linked on allocation unit 16133 these files are both referencing the _same_ data cluster. obviously, one of them (at least) must be wrong. it's interesting to note that c:\386spart.par is your windows swap file... to fix this, you should copy each cross-linked file to a new name. this will "fix" the cross-link by giving the files unique data spaces. now delete the cross-linked files. examine the copies and try to assemble them properly. good luck. (hint: "missing pieces" are likely to be found in those "lost chains" at the top...) 42366976 bytes total disk space 3958784 bytes in 4 hidden files 153600 bytes in 67 directories 36042752 bytes in 1496 user files 1564672 bytes available on disk your disk is pretty close to full. this may be the actual cause of the problem; perhaps windows needed to expand its swapfile by an amount which exceeded available disk space... in any case, the short summary is that something trashed your fat. there are utilities that can mirror your fat and help repair damage after something like this, but you have to run them _before_ the problem occurs. sorry. gordon s. hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec. 3rd! gordon s. hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec. 3rd! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9739">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9739" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 version 1.3 drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon. unfortunately, their not available via ftp, you have to dial up their bbs in the usa. i do this from nz using a 14.4k modem to cut down on phone bills. it took me around 7 minutes to download the v1.2 driver. could you please upload to any of the ftp sites (such as ftp.ciaca.indiana.edu) and announce it here? this will benefit people does not have access to their bbs in usa (like me :-))? thanks a lot. - beng hang tay 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9742">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9742" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i also had a simular problem with by nec p7, it went away when i turned on the "print directly to parallel port" option in the printer setup mencsh tract und gott lacht yaturner@netcom.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9743">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9743" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi. my last question for the year. i have a mail-order no-name notebook with 4 meg ram. i never have problems with my huge ramdisk or when running desqview, but win3.1 and w4w2.0 constantly crash on me, most commonly citing a "memory parity error." the only thing i can do is turn off and re-boot. my cmos ticks off & counts all the memory every startup, and there is never a problem with this either. could it be a bug in my windows copy instead of the hardware? i remember having some disk error problems when installing it. is there any change i could make to lessen the frequency or likelyhood of this happening (i think win vs win /s produce different crashes, but both crash frequently nonetheless) i know this is a pain, but please answer by email because my home account doesn't have rn. and i will stop asking questions now. thank you. chet pager = chetter@ucthpx.uct.ac.za 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9745">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9745" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 does anyone know what the vfintd.386 device is used for in windows 3.1? it's under the [386enh] section as device=c:\dos\vfintd.386 after upgrading to dos 6 on several machines (different types), some include it, some don't. any ideas? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9749">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9749" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 pc-xview from ncd, hcl-exceed from hummingbird software! _| _/ _/ _/_/_/ _| all opinions expressed are _| _| _/ _/ _/ _| my own because nobody else _| _| _/ _/ _/_/_/ _| wants them! _| _| _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _| jls@antares.larc.nasa.gov _| _| _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _| jon l. sweet _| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9750">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9750" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 is there a ftp.cica.indiana.edu mirror anyware that isn't so !@#$@# busy? phil trodwell *** this space ***| "i'd be happy to ram a goddam 440-volt cattle *** for rent. ***| prod into that tub with you right now, but not *** (cheap) ***| this radio!" -hunter s. thompson 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9753">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9753" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have a 386/33 with 8 megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer "boggs" down and becomes really sluggish! what can i do to increase performance? what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it? thanx in advance $_ /|$derek j.p. serianni $ e-mail : djserian@flash.lakeheadu.ca $ $\'o.o' $sociologist $ it's 106 miles to chicago,we've got a full tank$ $=(___)=$lakehead university $ of gas, half a pack of cigarettes,it's dark,and$ $ u $thunder bay, ontario$ we're wearing sunglasses. -elwood blues $ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9762">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9762" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups. i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog (ver. 1.1). i am considering moving all our machines to w4wg. q1: how much conventional ram does w4wg use over and above the driver for the network card? about 2.5kbyte without novell 3.11 support. q2: if i have a novell ne2000 card, are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed? q3: does w4wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w4wg? (note: i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w4wg for each of our machines, it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs. returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies.) q4: if you buy the upgrade to windows 3.1 for w4wg does it replace all of win 3.1 as you install it or does it depend on current win 3.1 files? nearly all. q5: if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out, will i have any troubles with the w4wg machines? we run mixed wnt beta and w4wg, no problem apart from printer sharing( beta problem) when i started this message, i was going to ask only 2 questions but i got carried away. i'll stop now ;-). we had problems with mouse drivers using w4wg where windows 3.1 didn't, seems to be more critical about it. it was actualy a port problem with the network card running on 0x2e0, we changed it to 0x300, now everything is allright, i think it has to do with the ami bios as well. i look forward to your replies. alan walford eos systems inc., vancouver,b.c., canada tel: 604-734-8655 aew@eosvcr.wimsey.bc.ca or ...uunet!wimsey.bc.ca!eosvcr!aew ralf rutherford telecom aust | mhsnet: rruther@cssc-melb.tansu.com.au network services | snail: 700 blackburn rd, clayton vic 3168 customised software solutions | australia center melbourne | phone: +61 3 253 8910 fax: +61 3 265 6669 
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 i have a 386/33 with 8 megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer "boggs" down and becomes really sluggish! what can i do to increase performance? what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it? thanx in advance 1) make sure your hard drive is defragmented. this will speed up more than just windows btw. use something like norton's or pc tools. 2) i _think_ that leaving the wall paper out will use less ram and therefore will speed up your machine but i could very will be wrong on this. there's a good chance you've already done this but if not it may speed things up. good luck morgan bullard mb4008@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu or mjbb@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu $_ /|$derek j.p. serianni $ e-mail : djserian@flash.lakeheadu.ca $ $\'o.o' $sociologist $ it's 106 miles to chicago,we've got a full tank$ $=(___)=$lakehead university $ of gas, half a pack of cigarettes,it's dark,and$ $ u $thunder bay, ontario$ we're wearing sunglasses. -elwood blues $ 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9765">
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 i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently. usually, the line at the bottom of the filemanager (the status bar, i guess) displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection. if i select a whole bunch of files, i will get an exact byte count. recently, i notice it incorrectly displays this count; it's truncating! if i select a file that is, say, 532 bytes, it correctly displays '532 bytes'. if i select select a file that is 23,482 bytes, it displays '23 bytes', not 23 kbytes, just 23 bytes! if i select 893,352 it will report only 893 bytes in the selection. if i select over a meg worth of files, say 3,356,345 it reports 3 bytes! it's as if it's got a problem with displaying more than 3 characters! my system: 486dx/33, 8m memory, stacker 3.0, dos 5, win 3.1. i've run the latest virus scanners (scan102, f-prot) and they didn't report anything. could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger? it sounds like something/one may have set the 1000's separator to "." in contol panel (under international). this makes 23,482 look like 23.482 and file manager is chopping off what it thinks is the decimal part of the file size. 3,356,345 becomes 3.356.345, and again, file manager is confused by the decimal points where there should be commas, chopping off everything to the right of the first period. tony debari fqdn: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us ci$: 73117,452 uucp: ...!uunet!ssc60!tonyd *p*: ghrw14b a.k.a. skip bowler, captain of usenet fantasy bowling league team 9. 
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 ### mark juric a.i. programs ### ### mjuric@ai.uga.edu university of georgia ### ### athens, georgia 30602 ### 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9769">
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 i find that it's always (almost anyway) busy when i dial, but if i try repeatedly, usually only 5 to 15 tries, i always get connected. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9771">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9771" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i've been reading, with much confusion, about whether or not to use atmanager. lately, all the packages i've been buying have all included atmanager as a "bonus" i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw. coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over 200 diff types. add that to the ttfonts that come with win31 and you have a decent amount of fonts. i print my creations out on an hp4 postcript, at 600 dpi resolution with the "resolution enhancement technology" and .. well ... i get some darn good copies. so good that there isn't any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not. is it worth it to run atm at all? especially with these better printer technologies ... and tt? atm will do nothing for your truetype fonts. if your truetype fonts are sufficient for your needs, don't run atm. i have a lot of fonts that i can install either as type-1 postscript (under atm) or as truetype. i have noticed that: 1. truetype font files are at least 1/3 larger than their type-1 equivalents. if you are using a disk compressor, though, be aware that truetype fonts will compress, whereas type-1 fonts will not (they are encrypted). 2. with a 300 dpi laser printer, the "artificial bold" version of a truetype font is indistingishable from the original, forcing me to install the actual bold (and bold-italic, etc.) variants if i want to use them. type-1 postscript fonts under atm generate a visually distinct bold variant from the base font. i realize that the artificial bold font that atm generates is aesthetically inferior to the hand-generated bold truetype variant, but it is sufficient for my needs, and not having to install bold variants saves me 50% on disk space (uncompressed). bob nichols at&t bell laboratories rnichols@ihlpm.ih.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9772">
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 i have several people sharing my machine and would like to set up separate environments under windows for each of them. is there some way of setting things up separate desktops/directories for each of them? ideally, i'd like totally separate virtual machines. i'd be willing to settle for less, and may end up having batch files that copy .ini files around depending on who wants to use the machine. alas, setup/n doesn't work if you don't have a network. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9774">
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 trying to pin point a hardware problem with my disk, maxtor 7213at. group files get corrupted on a regular basis. only happens on this drive, d had only one corrupt file in over a year and it was under the control of winword on c. 32-bit disk access and smartdrive are off. since installation of dblspace problem has turned from an annoyance to a reason for are you using fastopen? if you are, disable it. we had a lot of problems with fastopen corrupting weird things (including the windows permanent swap file) when we were using it. since the most frequent files corrupted are the *.grp files, are these the last thing written to when exitting windows? indeed they are. advanced personal measure tells me they are accessed just before shell.dll also, are there any pd/shareware utilities available that do a more thorough job than dos 6, ndd 4.5, etc? dos 6 and win 3.1 compatable. i really like spinrite and qa plus paladin@world.std.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9775">
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 greetings! i've had a bunch of problems with the 24x. opening a dos window on the desktop can occasionally result in the windows "blowing up" into a set of horizontal lines, hashing the entire desktop. nothing can recover this except to completely exit from windows. the other irritating problem is that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually scrolling, as if a cr was printed without an lf. this seems only to happen to communications programs, but i can't nail it down any further than that. note, though, that the comms programs don't have to be communicating. even just scrolling back through capture buffers or displaying disk files in these programs causes the problem. prior to the latest rev of word perfect for windows, wpwin would sometimes blow up, and the error message would cite the video driver as the source of the problem. i've still seen this, but only once or twice with wpwin 5.2. dave zimmerman (my opinions are my own) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9776">
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 i'm searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows 3.1. if anybody knows one, please mail me! dipl.-inform. dietmar weidlich # ifado, ardeystr. 67 # weidlich@arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de # d-4600 dortmund 50 # phone ++49 231 1084-250 # >> dr. b.: "koennten sie das # fax ++49 231 1084-401 # mal eben erledigen?" << # 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9778">
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 : i'm searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows 3.1. if : anybody knows one, please mail me! : thanks. : dw : dipl.-inform. dietmar weidlich # ifado, ardeystr. 67 # : weidlich@arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de # d-4600 dortmund 50 # : phone ++49 231 1084-250 # >> dr. b.: "koennten sie das # : fax ++49 231 1084-401 # mal eben erledigen?" << # yes, i'm looking for phonetic font(s) too! so if you know one, please mail me too! thanks in advance patrick hudepohl vu amsterdam the netherlands 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9783">
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 could somebody tell me, how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non-windows application, which runs in an window. we use ms-windows 3.1 and have clipper applications. exists there any routines or something else ? please mail me your informations. thanks for your efforts, name : o.kretzschmar inst.ike / university stuttgart phone: +49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax : +49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email: wnkretz@ikesg1.energietechnik.uni-stuttgart.de very simple. you have to have the mouse.com or mouse.sys loaded in dos before you run windows. note that you don't need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows. one addition to this... i don't know if it applies to everybody. for my (microsoft 400dpi) mouse to work with windowed dos apps, i had to use the driver that came with windows (version 8.20). 8.1 didn't allow me to do it for some reason. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9784">
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 has anybody gotten this bmp to work? i try to uudecode it, but i get "input file error" and no picture. anybody? --casey 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9787">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9787" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse.com 8.00 (was using 8.20 i think, but switched to 8.00 to see if it was any better). vertical motion is nice and smooth, but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can't click on something because my mouse jumps around. i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit, then jump to the right, then move smoothly for a bit then jump again (maybe this time to the left about .5 inch!). this is crazy! i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before. anyone have any solutions? does microsoft think they are what everyone should be? <- just venting steam! sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d-406 hfac brigham young university provo, ut 84602 (801)378-3292 hfac_csr@byu.edu ecktons@ucs.byu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9789">
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 we are developing an ms-windows based product that uses a full screen window to display ~24 rows of textual data. is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently (quickly) ?? please email responses and i will post a summary to this group. thanks for any help --- john bruno apparently, microsoft came out with a new product: ms-braille it is suppose to be "wytiwig". :-) no offense. marc trottier / mtrottie@emr1.emr.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9790">
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 a co-worker of mine needs to convert a postscript file to a form readable (ie ascii) in windows or dos. does anybody know of a utility that will do this? i have a vague memory of a shareware utility someone mentioned once... thanks for any info, 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9794">
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 one addition to this... i don't know if it applies to everybody. for my (microsoft 400dpi) mouse to work with windowed dos apps, i had to use the driver that came with windows (version 8.20). 8.1 didn't allow me to do it for some reason. for logitech rodents use the lmouse driver that comes with windows.... also you need to be using a video driver that supports use of the mouse, both the vga and supervga that come with windows 3.1 will support it. both of these are 16 color drivers, if you're lucky the manufacturer of your video card might have a driver that is compatable and will support a stephen guerke, coord. computer resources sguerke@brahms.udel.edu university of delaware parallel program stephen.guerke@mvs.udel.edu georgetown, de 19947 ilv20078@udelvm.udel.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9796">
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 when i use telix (or kermit) in win 3.1, or use telix after exiting windows to dos, telix can not find the serial port. if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information, send me email or send it to the news group. thanks. you may have to define your serial ports under windows (i think it's the control panel, ports options..) dale erickson dericks@plains.nodak.edu mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse. << e-mail: mhembruc@tse.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9797">
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 : i have a 486dx-33 computer with a soundblaster 1.0 card. i'm running : microsoft windows v3.1. i have the sb driver set up properly to play : normal sounds (.wav files, etc.). i want to play midi files through the : media player that is included with windows. i know i have to set up the : patch maps or something in the midi-mapper in the control panel. i know : nothing about midi. (this is to be the way i'll get my feet wet.) : how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files? if you install the soundblaster windows drivers correctly, and have the latest drivers, the media player should be setup to play files authored to microsoft's multimedia midi authoring standard (general midi), see the section in the back of the voyetra manual in the soundblaster midi upgrade kit. you'll find that midi files exist with all kinds of different mappings, so don't expect them to always sound correct without using some kind of midi file editor, such as voyetra's sequencer plus. you can attempt to use the midi-mapper to remap the patches for soundblaster, but since you cannot modify the sbfm.drv you are allways stuck with the instruments that come with this driver. unless you can find an editor for making modifications to the instrument settings in sbfm.drv , i would suggest you locate the early version of soundblaster drivers that were mapped to mt32 voices, and the later drivers that are mapped to the general midi voices. : david thomas dudek / v098pwxs@ubvms.bitnet \ __ _ the cybard : state university / dudek@sun.acsu.buffalo.edu \ / `-' ) ,,, : of new york / "if music be the food of love, \ | | ()|||||||[:::} : @ buffalo / play on!" - wm. shakespeare \ `__.-._) ''' 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9800">
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 i have a 386/33 with 8 megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer "boggs" down and becomes really sluggish! what can i do to increase performance? what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it? thanx in advance you can try defraging your disk more often. it definitely will help speed things up. a 2 megs smartdrv is also a good idea with the amount of memory you have, and use fastdisk (32bit access) if you not already. hope that help.. n. ngo 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9803">
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 i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them. does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location (probably at cica) the file is frite20.zip and you'll find it in the 'icons' directory at cica. the one line description is: afflict your icons with "cursorphobia" o | paul blackman pwb@science.canberra.edu.au o | water research centre, pwb@aerg.canberra.edu.au o _ | faculty of applied science -- (") o | university of canberra, australia. \_|_-- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "spend a little love and get high" _/ \_ | - lenny kravitz 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9805">
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 i edited a few newsgroup from that line (don't like to crosspost that much). i can't compare the two, but i recently got an hp deskjet 500. i'm very pleased with the output (remember that i'm used to imagens, laser and postscript printers at school -- looks very good. you have to be careful to let it dry before touching it, as it will smudge. the deskjet is slow. this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned. i have no idea how the bubblejet compares. the interface between win3.1 and the printer is just dandy, i've not had any problems with it. hope that helps some. --cindy cindy tittle moore internet: tittle@ics.uci.edu | bitnet: cltittle@uci.bitnet uucp: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle | usnail: po box 4188, irvine ca, 92716 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9810">
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 so good that there isn't any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not. is it worth it to run atm at all? especially with these better printer technologies ... and tt? there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts. if you have a ps font that you want to use, use atm. otherwise, it is a waste of system resources. -----or, if you need to use a service bureau and they're only set up to use type 1 fonts. from what i've heard (pure hearsay) the results of outputting tt fonts as type 1 is _not_ as good as using high-quality type 1 fonts in the first place. unless you `print' to file with the correct resolution set for the final output device (image setter). a problem with tt fonts in windows is that they do get converted to t1 format ok, and the hinting is even used while this is done, but the resulting t1 fonts are not hinted. the result is that they will work fine on a device of the resolution assumed by the printer driver when the ps file is generated, but they will not look good when printed at a different resolution. so when you print to an attached ps printer, with the ps driver set up for this printer results, may be quite good. but if you take a ps file made for that printer and run it on a device of different resolution (such as an image setter), then the results may not be so good. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9812">
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 i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd5426 chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp.cica.indiana.edu (file is 5426dr13.zip). they're very recent, i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs (570-226-2365) last night. if you are unable to get them there, email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well. i have a local bus based card (vl24 bitblaster from micron) but i think the drivers work with isa cards (or at least includes drivers for them). i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the 1.2 version, improving my graphic winmarks (v3.11) by about 2 million (7.77 to 9.88) although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus's part but i don't think so. from steve gibson's (columnist for info world) graphic card comparisons (also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv.zip) i extracted the following for the sake of comparison: winbn3.11 word sprsht cad paint overall steve's system: 486/33 vlb: ati graphics ultra pro 9.33 10.34 20.78 8.28 14.90 13.58 my system - 486sx/33 vlb: vl24 bitblaster 9.88 8.65 11.71 18.84 15.40 13.65 its no viper, but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson's review. micron system owner's, i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc 2270vl local bus disk controller. my system came with a maxtor 7120 drive (120 mb) and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about 16 kb/s, i am now at 22 kb/s. is this about as good as it gets? i can't get a norton's sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls, at least that was what the program said. oliver weatherbee oliver@earthview 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9815">
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 in windows 3.0 there is a built-in called sysedit.exe that is just what you need. windows 3.1 i don't know...... it's there..... tony annese claebaur@shell.portal.com -or- claebaur@cup.portal.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9816">
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 i quit windows normally to run a special dos app, got done with it and tried to start windows. ok got the title screen, windows background, dos with an error about loading progman.exe. hum, yep progman.exe is still there. must be bad, ok pull off progman.exe from a backup tape, start windows, get the windows title screen, windows background, dos with the same error. hum! fire up the good ol' norton disk doctor, test, 500 lost clusters! ok, fix them, and look through them, doesn't look important. remove the windows directory, and reinstall from disks. fire up windows, title screen, background, program manager, success! i have a 486/50 (amy) with 4 meg of ram, 120 meg hd, svga, running under dos 5.0, no special memory managers or stuff, just the basic windows 3.1 a 12 meg permanent swap file using 32-bit access. i mainly use windows to run more that one dos app at a time. (ie downloading with qmodem with a dos window open, and possibly pov running in the background.) i've noticed that since i started using windows a few months ago, lost clusters have gotten more and more common. although i don't like having data just disappear, it really haven't been a problem except for today. has anyone else had any problems with lost clusters while running windows? and what could i do to fix the problem, i'd sleep better knowing amy wasn't loosing her marbles. :) steven marcotte sdoran@matt.ksu.ksu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9817">
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 an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt/net version 3.4. realy? where? i tried archie with no luck. it's probably just a typo. not a typo. it was uploaded to ftp.cica.indiana.edu a couple days back. but i sure would like to get one if it's real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt. version 3.4 uses standard windows printer drivers. ashok aiyar mail: ashok@biochemistry.cwru.edu department of biochemistry tel: (216) 368-3300 cwru school of medicine, cleveland, ohio fax: (216) 368-4544 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9819">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9819" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am using dos quick c 2.5 in a dos window under windows 3.1, and the other day while i was running the compiler, i got a general protection fault immediately followed by a "serious disk error". when i rebooted, i found that about 15 files had gotten "cross-linked" which is a pretty serious corruption of the hard drive file system. i am concerned that quick c in a dos window has somehow strayed outside its protected mode world and corrupted the smartdrv.exe disk cache and that is what caused the disk problem. i thought that dos programs run in dos windows were pretty well-contained by windows. if that is true, then maybe the quick c compiler has nothing to do with it. has anybody else had this type of problem? (i only recently "upgraded" from quick c 2.0 to 2.5.) brad banko brad banko; dept of physics; u of illinois; b-banko@uiuc.edu see one. do one. teach one. 73 de kb8cne @ n9lnq.il 
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<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9820" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 btw, how would you rate the new "borland turbo c++ visual edition for windows," anyone? time for a new discussion, maybe ? i asked in these groups some time ago what about the tc++/ve, and got no answers, so i decided to try. my brother who lives in the us bought and sent it to me, and i'm still trying to get used to it. before i put my good/bad points list, consider i am a turbo pascal/dos programmer, and sometimes try to make something in unix with c (just some exercises from university). i used to make some programs in microsoft c version 5 (!!) because we used some third-party libraries that required that. - i like borland. it seems to me much more easier to use than microsoft, specially the debugger. i tried to learn codeview sometimes, but never felt confortable with it. - tc++ v/e seems very nice to create simple apps, like the examples on the objectwindows book. so far, no problems. lets see next week or so, when i will try something more complex. - it works nice even in my "weak" machine 386/16mhz, 6 mb ram. but..... - the manual for the resource workshop seems to be from a different version from the workshop itself. some of the windows that appear on the manual have more itens than in the manual. - i think i will run into trouble since i got this tc++/ve from my brother as a present. i didnt wanted to buy the japanese version because 1) i suspect that the manuals will be in japanese :-( and 2) i believe it will be far more expensive here. so he bought it as a present and sent to me, i send the registration card to the japanese branch of borland, but... who knows. so, i'd like to ask some questions for you all; - i know that there are some microsoft guys around here in this group. is there anybody from borland ? is there any e-mail address that we can contact the technical support ? not for stupid questions, but to ask for example, why the rw manual seems to be different from the rw itself ? - is there anybody else using it around here ? - will the book of petzold be useful for me ? i intend to use rw and protogen to make the interfaces and then work on the code itself. answers to my e-mail or comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools, please. thanks in advance, 
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 is it possible to know minimize program manager when starting an application and to restore it when the application is ended ? if possible, please tell me how to do it ! ===================== ( forever 23, michael jordan.) ===================== tony g. wu gtonwu@uz.nthu.edu.tw cae/rheology lab. nthu. tony@che.nthu.edu.tw 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9823">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9823" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 salutations! i don't usually subscribe to these newsgroups so i would really appreciate it if someone could possibly e-mail me the answer to my problem. i have been using windows 3.1 since buying it last winter but i have just now come across an annoying bug. i now have about 8 different groups in program manager but it seems that everytime i install something new that makes a new group, it promptly disappears after i turn of windows! this happened when i installed excel and winfax pro v.3. they both created their own groups but when i turned off windows and reran them, they were gone. i had to manually pull them up as new items and put them in a previously existing group as all new gropus disappear as soon as i turn off windows. my set up: precision 386dx-25 w/ 4 megs trident 8900c with 1 meg windows 3.1 running in 800x600 colour mode logitech mouseman thank you in advance! emile woo ewoo@unixg.ubc.ca emile woo, student representative to senate | .sig unavailable. holding internet: ewoo@unixg.ubc.ca | referendum to decide politic- tel: 822-6101 | ally correct witticism. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9824">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9824" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hey folks! just moments ago, i uploaded the bungee jumper after dark module that was widely talked about on here some time ago. it's at ftp.cica.indiana.edu, in /pub/pc/win3/uploads, titled simply bungee.zip. be sure to set your ftp connection to binary mode before downloading. if you have any other after dark shareware/freeware modules, please upload them too. the more the merrier. andrew bennett ajbennett@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu what planet are you from? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9826">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9826" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 } } hey, } } could somebody tell me, how it is possible to work with the mouse } } in a non-windows application, which runs in an window. we use } } ms-windows 3.1 and have clipper applications. exists there any } } routines or something else ? please mail me your informations. } } thanks for your efforts, } } oliver } } name : o.kretzschmar inst.ike / university stuttgart } } phone: +49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 } } fax : +49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 } } email: wnkretz@ikesg1.energietechnik.uni-stuttgart.de } very simple. you have to have the mouse.com or mouse.sys loaded in dos } before you run windows. note that you don't need to have these files loaded } to use the mouse in windows. ... and you need a video driver which is completely windows 3.1 compatible, and your mouse driver has to be completely compatible as well. not quite so simple. (i never could get my logitech mouse to work 100% in a dos window with my old paradise card: now i have a diamond ss24x and the 6.2 mouse drivers, and everything works perfectly). steven m. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9827">
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 | kevin marshall, operational support, motorola ecid, swindon, uk. | | e-mail : marshalk@zeus | | phone : +44 793 545127 (international) (0793) 545127 (domestic) | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9833">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9833" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 does anyone out there use a sigma designs video/sound card ? the model is called win-storm-pc . they also have one model the legend-24lx any info on these like performance and compatibility, or even problems encountered will be appreciated. srini.w.seetharam 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9838">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9838" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hi, i have a trident tvga-8900 video card and need the updated drivers for win3.1 where can i get them from an ftp site. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9839">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9839" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card. is only in windows. i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers. also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf.drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup. i had the exact same failure with the 24x and word for windows. a quick call to microsoft indicated it was problem with the 24x drivers. you need to call diamond and get the new drivers, i think version 2.03 fixes the above problem, there may be later versions that i'm unaware of... dale r. pischke dale@odetics.com or uunet!odetics!dale senior software engineer odetics, gyyr division 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9841">
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 whenever i start file manager, the status bar is not displayed, even though it is selected in the options menu. if i deselect it, then select it again, the bar appears. anyone have any ideas why this is happening? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9843">
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 is anyone maintaining a list of favorite shareware and public domain windows i have several such lists for msdos, but they are really light on windows david arnstein international imaging systems arnstein@iis.sun.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9844">
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 can somebody help me out there? i have just purchased win 3.1 and i just can't get dos apps (text mode apps) to run in a window on their own. i've tried mucking around with the pif settings etc, but to no avail. what am i doing wrong? (i didn't get this problem under v3.0). thanks in advance ... 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9851">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9851" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 ok, here's a nice easy question for all you out there. when running dos 5.0 under windows 3.0, i lose the ability to do a print-screen. i have no problem with this when i'm running dos not under windows. if it's relavant, i'm using 'quarterdeck 6.0' expanded memory manager for my 386. please e-mail any responses, since i don't get to read the news too often. thanks in advance. _|||||||||||_______________________|||||||||||_ jr0930@eve.albany.edu -|||||||||||-----------------------|||||||||||- jr0930@albnyvms.bitnet ||||||||||| go heavy or go home ||||||||||| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9853">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9853" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 does any one know of any shareware/freeware software which lets one display eps files on a pc with dos and/or windows??? your reply would be much appreciated. thanks. hal adam, hadam@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9855">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9855" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 help, i'm bored with the current windows backgrounds we have here and am looking for some nifty pictures to use instead. i've seen from previous posts that many sites exist that store pictures - available through anonymous ftp. except that i can't ftp to remote sites from my machine, what i can do is use 'ftpmail' - mail a list of commands to a server and receive a mail of files, and/or data back. does anyone know of sites, with windows compatible pictures, that can be accessed in such a way??? if you do would you please post them. ps. maybe this would make a useful faq | mark.whalley@gec-mrc.co.uk | 'only in silence the word, | | phone +44 245 473331 exn. 3114 | only in darkness light, | | the views expressed here are mine, | only in dying life, | | all mine, and nothing whatsoever to | bright the hawk's flight on the | | do with gec-mrc. | empty sky' - ursula k. le guin | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9859">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9859" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 hello fellow 'netters. i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase, the canon bj200 (bubblejet) vs. the hp deskjet 500. i thought, rather than trust the salesperson, i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential. and, i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson. now, i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the 360 dpi of the canon bubblejet vs. the hewlett-packard deskjet 500 (300 dpi). which is faster? is there a noticeable print quality difference, particularly in graphics? which will handle large documents better (75 pages or more) -- any personal experience on either will be appreciated here? which works better under windows 3.1 (any driver problems, etc)? cost of memory, font packages, toner cartridges, etc? basically, your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable, both good and bad. advance kudos and thanks for all your input. e-mail or news posting is readily acceptable, but e-mail is encouraged (limits bandwidth). robert kayman ---- kayman@cs.stanford.edu -or- cpa@cs.stanford.edu "in theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they are not." "you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised?!?!" all right. not saying i know any more than the average salesguy, i'll give your question a shot. the key issue that i bought my bj-200 on was ink drying speed. you really have to try awful hard to get the bj-200 ink to smear. the hp deskjets need 10-15 seconds to completely dry. in both cases, however, do not get your pages wet. unlike laser printers, the material on your pages is ink, not toner. but that should go without saying. my pc has very little memory (only 2meg ram), so the bj-200 takes a little while to print ----- but every application i use takes a while to run. once the computer is solely printing, it purs like a kitten and puts pages out every 15-30 seconds, depending on how detailed your graphics are. the bj-200 can do windows soft fonts. i'm assuming that the deskjet can, or hp wouldn't sell many...... size is another factor. the bj-200 is much smaller, but the hp is built like a tank. i bet the bj-200 would get damaged first. finally, the print quality. i love the bj-200's resolution. it looks like a good laser quality print. the hp's i've used.....they look like ink. not as impressive. so, i chose the canon. any other opinions? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9860">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9860" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card. the driver i am currently using is version 1.21 and doesn't support more than 256 colors in 1024x768 mode even you have 2mb memory. the bbs support for actix is unbelievable! they are still using 2400bps modem! it will take you hours to download the drivers, it hurts when you are calling long distance. is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows? btw, anyone using this card, and how do you like it so far? daniel y.h. wong uoft:(416)978-1659 wongda@picton.eecg.toronto.edu electrical engineering 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9861">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9861" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 2. is the driver support as seamless as program support? e.g., will my soundblaster, scanner, cd-rom, tape backup continue to work even if there are no specific nt drivers? there is a hardware compatibility guide to answer these questions. there are many drivers for cd rom and there are midi and other sound drivers installed, i dont do a lot with sound digitizing on this platform, but recall seeing items for their configuration in the control panel applet. there is built in support for tape backup systems as well. my problem: i wasn't aware of the fact that i would need an *scsi*-cd-rom for windows nt when ordering the beta-sdk-package. so my question: is there any driver available that will allow me to use my mitsumi (non-scsi) cd-rom for installation ? if there is one, from which place (ftp-site) can i get it ? many thanks in advance stefan kuehnel /\ stefan k"uhnel |/ kuehnel@rvs.uni-hannover.de |\ kuehnel@swl.uni-hannover.de (neu ab. 17.04.1993) \/ die oben wiedergegebene meinung ist meine private und nicht die des rrzn, des lg rvs der uh oder einer anderen institution. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9862">
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 hi, i have a trident tvga-8900 video card and need the updated drivers for win3.1 where can i get them from an ftp site. i have the same card, tvga-8900c. when i checked, the latest driver for windows 3.1 is dated aug. 92 in garbo.uwasa.fi in /win31/drivers/video. if you find a better version (updated) please let me know, thanks. -azmi <axh113@psuvm.psu.edu> 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9865">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9865" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups. i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog (ver. 1.1). i am considering moving all our machines to w4wg. q1: how much conventional ram does w4wg use over and above the driver for the network card? i have just checked it and you have three files that are loaded: protman : 128 bytes driver : 9072 bytes workgrp : 4416 bytes q2: if i have a novell ne2000 card, are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed? no w4wg uses it's own drivers. q3: does w4wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w4wg? (note: i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w4wg for each of our machines, it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs. returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies.) not that i know of, i bought two copies, had some problems with one installed both from the same copie, no problems. do worry i just had a really old bios and that's the only problem i got. q4: if you buy the upgrade to windows 3.1 for w4wg does it replace all of win 3.1 as you install it or does it depend on current win 3.1 files? it will replace all older files (i think) and prompt you for the q5: if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out, will i have any troubles with the w4wg machines? this i do not know... when i started this message, i was going to ask only 2 questions but i got carried away. i'll stop now ;-). i look forward to your replies. hope this helps 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9866">
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 when running dos 5.0 under windows 3.0, i lose the ability to do a print-screen. i have no problem with this when i'm running dos not under windows. open up the .pif file with the pif editor, click on the "advanced" button, and then reserve the prtsc key for the application. any keys that you select in this section will be passed along to the application rather than being processed by windows. bob nichols at&t bell laboratories rnichols@ihlpm.ih.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9870">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9870" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : the key issue that i bought my bj-200 on was ink drying speed. you really : have to try awful hard to get the bj-200 ink to smear. the hp deskjets need : 10-15 seconds to completely dry. in both cases, however, do not get your : pages wet. unlike laser printers, the material on your pages is ink, not : toner. but that should go without saying. i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water-fast. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9871">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9871" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 what the status of trumpet for windows? will it use the windows sockets ? i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring (results in invalid class error :( while i do not speak for peter tattam, i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version. while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet, it will follow on shortly thereafter. currently wintrumpet is in very late beta. it looks like an excellent product, with several features beyond the dos version. wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp, novell lwp, and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis_pkt shim. is wintrumpet available anywhere via anonymous ftp? | james r. garven | | dept. of finance, cba 3.250 voice: (512) 471-6557 | | graduate school of business fax: (512) 471-5073 | | university of texas internet: jgarven@mcl.cc.utexas.edu | | austin, tx 78712, u.s.a. bitnet: garven@utxvm.bitnet | | "education is ... hanging on until you've caught on" - robert frost | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9872">
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 i would like to change all of the system fonts in windows... i have a program that will generate system fonts from truetype, but i was wondering if there is a problem to help you set up all your system also, how do i change the icon text color... all of my icon text is black, and i want to change it... couldn't find any options in control panel or in win.ini brad cain brad@bach.udel.edu brad@bach.udel.edu brad cain n3naf cain@snow-white.ee.udel.edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain@freezer.cns.udel.edu "blah, blah, blah" alt.blah 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9875">
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 [ article crossposted from comp.os.ms-windows.apps ] [ author was dr. richard timmer ] [ posted on 24 apr 93 23:11:16 gmt ] hello winnetters: i have seen a great deal of discussion herein on the relative merits of ms access and borland paradox/win. however, are there any users out there with experience with the database package called "approach". it has gotten a number of very good reviews from the various mags. and it seems like it would require less hardware overhead than paradox. i have ruled out access because some aspects of it are extremely non-intuitive, e.g. requiring a field to always have a value. i like what i've seen of paradox, but it seems like the resource requirements are greater than what i have (386/25 mhz, 6 mb ram). so, please provide me with your thoughts are "approach", good and bad. thanks. richard timmer 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9878">
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 i tried to install a foreign language windows application that required a file named winnls.dll. i checked all of my windows 3.1 installation disks for this file, but could not find it. does anybody have any idea what this file is for and where one could get it from? 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9879">
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 can somebody tell me how much is canon bj200? and from where can i buy it for the cheapest price? thanks in advance.. _ 0___ \ _/\__ |/ ////// /-_-|_--_|--/ o | 0 0 | o 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9881">
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 is there a 768x1024 trident driver for windows anywere. this mode is supported by the drivers fo os/2 but i have not been able to find it for windows. (768x1024 means 768 wide and 1024 high as opposed to 1024x768) any help is appreciated. peter vestman dep of computing science university of umea, sweden 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9882">
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 an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt/net version 3.4. realy? where? i tried archie with no luck. it's probably just a typo. not a typo. it was uploaded to ftp.cica.indiana.edu a couple days back. but i sure would like to get one if it's real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt. version 3.4 uses standard windows printer drivers. it's still in the pub/pc/win3/uploads directory as qvtnet34.zip. note: new email address! | tom carter | carter@photon.cem.msu.edu | | michigan state university | carter@msucem.bitnet | | chemistry department | | 
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<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9884" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 begin ----------------------- cut here --------------- begin 666 ntreal.bmp m0dtv5p< #8$ h ( , %@" ! @ m $ ! @@p![( @ "!a> #!_f #cd ,56# #d. !=>_d m4pa: &4h@p"l,1 $u); &n+l0 ($!@ +4wa !,j.0 b/%h 9tj3 $kkzp 0 m,;, td4i /zgb0!)#uh (0a. "6e@ i !@ 4b!i " ! !bbzx #!e1 )bv deleted a lot of stuff!!!!!!! how do you convert this to a bit map??? you're supposed to delete everything above the "cut here" mark, and below the lower cut here mark, and uudecode it. but *i was not able to: unexpected end of file encountered at the last line. could you please re-post it, or tell be what i'm doing wrong? sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine, and you tried to uudecode it on a un*x machine, and your uudecode program balked at the carraige-returns. 
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 any clue? some times when i enter win 3.1 progman says that i need to rebuild a group! it's quite annoying! 
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 //i'm using bc++'s objectwindows (version 3.1) and trying to get some data //processed in a window object. however, when the calling program invokes //the window object, it gives up the control to the window object, and keeps //executing the next statement. i would like the calling program, after //invoking the window object, to wait until the window object is closed. //can i do that? my program may look like: class mywindow : public twindow void mycallingprog(...) // could the calling program be a c function? mywindow *mywinobj; mywinobj = new mywindow(...); getapplication()->makewindow(mywinobj); mywinobj->show(sw_shownormal); next statement; // i want the program to wait here until mywinobj ... // is closed so that i can get some data back from ... // mywinobj. i specified the window style to be ... // ws_popupwindow, didn't help. is there any other way ... // to execute the window object so that the calling ... // program won't give up the control? any help would } // be appreciated. thanks. -- jun to talk to the lord with ps/2 through ms-windows 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9888">
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 is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard 8.3 format. yep, it's called os2! 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9889">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9889" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 1. truetype font files are at least 1/3 larger than their type-1 equivalents. if you are using a disk compressor, though, be aware that truetype fonts will compress, whereas type-1 fonts will not (they are encrypted). this isn't entirely true. it is true that truetype fonts are larger than their atm counterparts, but atm fonts *do* get minimal compression. running stacker 3.0 report generator, i get: file type: compression ratio: *.ttf (truetype) 1.4:1.0 *.pfb (atm) 1.1:1.0 *.pfm (atm metric) 11.8:1.0 although the metric files are small, they compress quite largely. and, as you can see, even the regular .pfb files have *some* compression. so, doing the math on one such comparitive font file: ttf times = 83260 bytes/1.4 = 59471 bytes (compressed) pfb times = 51549 bytes/1.1 = 46862 bytes (compressed) you still win out, even if the atm times font *isn't* compressed. your mileage may vary depending on compression program. "when heroes go down, they go down fast || john m. grohol, m.s. so don't expect any time to || center for psychological studies equivocate the past." || nova univ, ft. lauderdale, fl - suzanne vega || grohol@novavax.nova.edu 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9890">
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 in a previous article, peter@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (peter r. tattam) says: contact me for details. peter@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au this is posted on behalf of peter tattam. there is a north american mirror with the beta test version of wintrumpet for winsock. please contact me or peter for details. ashok aiyar department of biochemistry, cwru axa12@po.cwru.edu for internet access (telnet/ftp) in cleveland, contact info@wariat.org telnet to wariat.wariat.org and login as bbs dial (216) 481-9425/9445 (v.32bis) or (216) 481-9436 (2400 bps) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9891">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9891" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet. but i seem to misplace those articles. can someone please refresh me where (which site) i can telnet to to gain access. hopefully i can download files as well. arthur lim email : arthur@mailhost.scs.com.sg 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9895">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9895" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 well, i really hate to make a decision, but recently, i have to choose whether stacker 3.0 or dos 6.0 with double space for my poor hd. i am using windwos 3.1 and i hope what i choose will live with windows. any help will be appreciated. ===================== ( forever 23, michael jordan.) ===================== tony g. wu gtonwu@uz.nthu.edu.tw cae/rheology lab. nthu. tony@che.nthu.edu.tw stacker achieves better compression ratio than dos6, yet the latter comes with virus detection, memory manager, and multiple booting. each of them are not so good as the nav, qemm or ndos in my opinion, but with a package of only $45, it's nice if haven't yet installed all of those stuffs. both certainly work with win31. rensheng horng 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9896">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9896" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the 20/20 drive.. don't laugh ... i am serious... if you have any 20 mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of, please mail me ... -- nilay patel nilayp@violet.berkeley.edu you do mean disks, don't you, not tapes? you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old 8" or the newer 5.25". sorry, just use them at work and don't think they would appreciate it. nathan c. moore the johns hopkins university / applied physics laboratory ncmoore2@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu cis: 70702,1576 please note above address for email replies. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9897">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9897" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 schlatter) says: begin ----------------------- cut here --------------- begin 666 ntreal.bmp m0dtv5p< #8$ h ( , %@" ! @ m $ ! @@p![( @ "!a> #!_f #cd ,56# #d. !=>_d m4pa: &4h@p"l,1 $u); &n+l0 ($!@ +4wa !,j.0 b/%h 9tj3 $kkzp 0 m,;, td4i /zgb0!)#uh (0a. "6e@ i !@ 4b!i " ! !bbzx #!e1 )bv deleted a lot of stuff!!!!!!! how do you convert this to a bit map??? you're supposed to delete everything above the "cut here" mark, and below the lower cut here mark, and uudecode it. but *i was not able to: unexpected end of file encountered at the last line. could you please re-post it, or tell be what i'm doing wrong? sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine, and you tried to uudecode it on a un*x machine, and your uudecode program balked at the carraige-returns. well, my newsreader shows the uue file as having lots of spaces, which means it's broken before i even try to download it. did anyone get it to uudecode successfully? rbyaml@rohmhaas.com aengus lawlor rbyaml@rohvm1.bitnet (who used to be alawlor@dit.ie) "how about some of that famous dublin wit, barman?" "certainly, sir. would that be dry or sparkling?" 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9900">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9900" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 is anyone out there running a ms-dos system with a localtalk board? i am on an appletalk network, hooked up with a daystar digital lt200 mc localtalk interface board, running on a ps/2 model 70. i'm using the appleshare pc software for file server and network access. it works fine under dos or the window or os/2 dos box. but when i try to load it *before* windows, so that every application i run could get access to it, the machine crashes hard as soon as i start up an application. and of course, things look pretty hopeless for os/2 (but who knows). so, does anyone have experience with this bizarre and obsolete setup? - duncans@phoenix.princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9901">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9901" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 a couple of weeks ago i posted a question concerning between vb and msaccess using dde. the answers i received at that time allowed me to get a prototype of my project working. however, this process i have come up with new problems. 1) there seems to be a limit of 255 characters for a dde topic string. is this inherent in all dde systems or just peculiar to msaccess or vb? 2) it is easy to query an access database from vb using the dde sql command, (provided the above limitation is overcome by using short field and table names) but how is one meant to update a database? a) a dde sql update command does not seem to work. b) initiating an access macro using a dde execute command from vb cannot be used because when the macro requests information from vb using a second dde channel the programs dead lock until time- outs occur. (the vb to access channel has to close before the access to vb channel is initiated, i guess.) c) access does not allow vb to dde poke the information. the way i eventually managed to update a database was by sending key- strokes from vb to access using the sendkeys command. this technique has the problem that access cannot be minimised and it must always be in a state ready to respond to the sequence of key-strokes vb are all the above statements correct or have i made incorrect are there any better work arounds to the above? are there any signs of an odbc driver for access? ran@doc.ic.ac.uk 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9903">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9903" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hey all...i got an equation editor, and since it didn't automagically appear in my "object" dialog box (i.e. insert-->object-->equation), i decided to manually place it there. so i went into win.ini (is there another way to do this?), the [embedding] section, and added equation=equation,equation,<path\filename>,picture. didn't work. quit windows, go back. aha: mistake. correct it. it looks fine. start windows...doesn't work. play with it for a while, at one point having two entries to see if one works and th'other don't, and finally i get it to work. the only thing i can see that's different now is that it's now the first item on the list, and it used to be the last. but now i end up with *three* "equation" entried, and *all* of them working. (and only one entry in win.ini). so does any netian know what's wrong? or rather, how to correct this? (i.e. make "equation"appear but once?). also, all the entries in the [embedding] appear as above. it's obvious that <path\filename> is the executable, or whatever, and "picture" has something to do withthe way it appears (picture/description?) but what are the others? i.e., in soundrec=sound,sound, whate's the difference between the 1st "sound" and the 2nd? and what is "soundrec"?? (i don't think it's the name of the executable, as other entries (e.g. msworkschart=...) aren't) thanks, i.a. pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9904">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9904" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 mornin' all. i was wonderin'..... i got screenpeace (the screensaver, which i think is *very* good), and i got a problem with it... there is an option there, "realize colour table", and if it's switched on, some wallpapers' colours will get *ucked up with some screensavers (e.g. the "flashlight" one). if i turn it off, however, it works well, and it's faster, so i have it off. all's nice and well. however, if i turn it off, then it will be on again next time i start windows. all the setting are set in the win.ini file, and i *do* have "save settings on exit" selected. also, i tried manually changing the setting in the win.ini file to "n" (for no-->realize colour table), and started windows. it will be fine for that session, but the next session will *again* turn the option on. i tried adding a +r (read-only) attribute to my win.ini file, and it worked, but my bitmap (wallpaper) saver didn't work then. actually, it's the same application. anywya, it didn't work, since it must change the setting at the win.ini file. so anyone out there got any answers/suggesions/comments for me? thanks, i.a. aka mp pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| *how do make a ms-windows .grp file reflect a hd directory??* \\\\ | "well i ain't always right, but i've never been wrong.."(gd) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9907">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9907" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse.com 8.00 (was using 8.20 i think, but switched to 8.00 to see if it was any better). vertical motion is nice and smooth, but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can't click on something because my mouse jumps around. i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit, then jump to the right, then move smoothly for a bit then jump again (maybe this time to the left about .5 inch!). this is crazy! i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before. anyone have any solutions? does microsoft think they are what everyone should be? <- just venting steam! i think i have the same problem. i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse, which doesn't roll so smooth. the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops, i hit a mine (using minesweeper :-) ). i think the solution will be buying a new mouse, and/or using a mouse pad. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9908">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9908" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card. is only in windows. i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers. also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf.drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup. i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application. these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs. what a hassle. running on gateway 2000 dx2/50. thx dave l you're using drivers version 2.02 or earlier. the latest is 2.03, available from their bbs or by snailmail. it at least fixes the wfw problem. the reason i wanted to reply in public instead of private mail is because of following: i talked to their tech support a few days ago and was told that i can expect a new version near the end of the month. which should be about now... however, i have a problem when switching back from a dos session in standard mode. apparently they don't know of this problem and seem to be surprised why anybody would want to use standard mode at all. it's a great card for the price, at least when i bought it. now there may be better alternatives. bo peng 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9910">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9910" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 it is correct that vc++ is not considered an upgrade for c7. c7 is basically a dos product, vc++ is a windows product. as windows is not an upgrade for dos, it is a separate operating system product line, its utilities cannot be upgrades for dos utilities. however, i have also been told that it is not an upgrade for qcwin, which it should be! my understanding is that visual c++ *is* msc8.0. is it not? what i mean is, it is intended as a logical upgrade to msc7 (which i own). i am very interested in vc++, but i can't find anything about it. tell me more. how's the editor? is it a true windows app (msc7 - which i love - is not). how are compile times? .exe sizes? how smart is the linker? how well does it do dos apps? i would like to be one of the few programmers still pumping out stuff for the dos users out there - even though i run win3.1 (i like the multitasking and i couldn't afford desqview). will it link 3rd party libs easily? i use lots of 3rd party libs in my dos programs (too lazy to do my own interfaces). how is the debugger - i make lots of mistakes (|-})? thanx..... .... if it wasn't for c, we would be using basi, pasal and obol! ___ blue wave/qwk v2.10 | _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | david a. fuess | | _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ | dir, center for eecs | | _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ | phone: (510)423-2436 | | _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ | fax: (510)422-9343 | +-------- lawrence livermore national laboratory --------+ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9911">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9911" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i know this is probably a faq, but... i installed the s/w for my ati graphics card, and it bashed my windows logo files. when i start windows now, it has the 3.0 logo instead of the 3.1 logo. i thought the files that controlled this were \windows\system\vgalogo.rle \windows\system\vgalogo.lgo i restored these files, but it didn't change the logo. anyone know what the correct files are? farley@access.digex.com <charles u. farley> average iq of calgary board of ed. employee: 65 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9912">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9912" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi! i was wondering if anyone out there could help me. i have an error message that goes: what does it mean? i am running ms windows 3.1. thanks in advance 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9914">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9914" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hello all, i'd like to know, how z-modem-upload is initiated in a winqvt-script-file, to check how it works before registering. unfortunatly, nothing about that feature is mentioned in the manual. can anybody help me? ciao, chris 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9916">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9916" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i installed windows for workgroups on my network and i'm having problems mapping drives in the file-manager. situation: if i put lastdrive = z in my config.sys, netx will run but i can't access drive f: to log in to novell. if i don't put lastdrive = z in my config.sys i can't access other w4wg drives from the file-manager. it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive = statement in my config.sys. i would appreciate any help. it's probably an easy problem that all you windows guru's solved many many moons ago... tom bilan $ department of death by engineering ^ surgeon general's warning: $ $ michigan state university ^ graduate school may cause brain $ $ bilan@cps.msu.edu ^ damage and sporadic loss of hair $ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9917">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9917" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i recently purchased a diamond stealth 24 video card and received the wrong drivers. does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers? the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card. please respond to doug@sun.sws.uiuc.edu thank you doug ward 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9919">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9919" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet. but i seem to misplace those articles. can someone please refresh me where (which site) i can telnet to to gain access. hopefully i can download files as well. this should be in the faq, it only get asked about twenty times a month there is *no*, that's right, *no* telnet access to compuserve, no ftp access, no gopher access....no internet services except e-mail. you can telnet to hermes.merit.edu, but that routes you through sprintnet, which is horrendously expensive. tom gillman, systems programmer | "aaaaagggghhhh" wells computer center-ga. state univ. | -- any "classic" star trek security (404) 651-4503 syshtg@gsusgi2.gsu.edu | officer sometime during the show gsu doesn't care what i say on the internet, why should you? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9923">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9923" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i know this is probably a faq, but... i installed the s/w for my ati graphics card, and it bashed my windows logo files. when i start windows now, it has the 3.0 logo instead of the 3.1 logo. i thought the files that controlled this were \windows\system\vgalogo.rle \windows\system\vgalogo.lgo i restored these files, but it didn't change the logo. anyone know what the correct files are? somewhere (ftp.cica.indiana.edu or simtel20 mirror) there is a program called winlogo.zip that does the trick. it works great. i believe the reason why you can't change the files you mentioned is that the logo is actually imbeded into the windows executable (somebody please correct/expand on this) farley@access.digex.com <charles u. farley> average iq of calgary board of ed. employee: 65 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9926">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9926" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 windows nt i need some information on the new windows nt. anything you have would be appreciated. i know nothing about it. (well, except that it exists.) some questions... memory requirements, hard drive space, release date? is it out? how is ibm reacting? intel? can it replace other lan os's? anything else like specs, speed, etc.. thanks in advance! email me at internet address: domet@ucbeh.san.uc.edu bitnet address: domet@ucbeh 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9928">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9928" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have been experiencing several end-user problems with various commercial software packages (wordperfect 5.2/win, publish it!/win 3.1) and printing landscape mode on a citizen pn48 (the little guy) or the citizen gsx-140+. in a nutshell the problem is that i lose the first 0.625 inches of information from my left margin, be it white space or truetype font output, and margins are not preserved on subsequent pages past the wordperfect had a workaround consisting of using the "default" location for the printers instead of "tractor" or "manual". they have also filed this as a bug and are continuing to investigate it. ms write, of course, has no problem with these printer drivers, proving that microsoft knows something the rest of us don't! are you surprised? i'm publish it!/win is still investigating this problem, and while i was consider- my options (rejecting the one about buying an $800 dtp package, for *surely* they wouldn't have this problem, right?) i stumbled onto a global workaround. go into the windows 3.1 control panel, select printers, select your citizen printer driver, select setup, and select a custom size of 850 x 1132. like magic, all of your problems will go away. ask me no questions and i'll tell you no lies! -- mike disclaimer: my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. mike.rovak@drd.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9929">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9929" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i thought this problem might have something to do with windows 3.1 smartdrv and a vesa video card...any ideas??? i recently purchased a 486dx-33 machine and am having problems where the machine will suddenly freeze or reboot. this may happen in windows 3.1 or dos 5.0. sometimes it is after printing a document, sometimes after using the mouse, and sometimes just when i am sitting there. twice when it happened, the machine rebooted and sounded seven beeps. i looked in the documentation and the seven beep code meant a problem with interrupts. the machine has the following configuration and files: 486dx-33 ami bios 5.25 and 3.5 floppies 170 meg ide hard drive 256k cache microsoft compatible mouse on com1 citizen gsx-145 on lpt1 ni supervga monitor with vesa windows accelerator card w/ 1meg two vesa slots windows 3.1 dos 5.0 config.sys device=c:\windows\himem.sys dos=high devicehigh=c:\dos\setver.exe files=20 buffers=20 stacks=9,128 autoexec.bat @echo off lh c:\windows\smartdrv.exe 1024 prompt $p$g path c:\dos;c:\windows;c:\mouse lh c:\mouse\mouse set temp=c:\dos lh c:\dos\doskey when the machine freezes, i can't use the mouse or keyboard or use ctrl-alt-del to reboot. if any one can give me any help, i would greatly appreciate it. if anyone can help configure this machine for the best efficiency (memory wise) i would appreciate that also. douglas b. dodson internet: dbd@icf.hrb.com hrb systems, inc. state college, pa usa disclaimer! any ideas or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of hrb. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9932">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9932" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 for windows 3.1, i have had the best luck using the epson lq-2550 drivers with my citizen gxs-140+. be sure to download the updated version from microsoft that allows margin settings. gene toye, senior software engineer gtoye@pssparc2.oc.com openconnect systems, 2711 lbj freeway, dallas, tx 75234 214/888-0454 disclaimer: my employer had no idea i was going to say that. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9933">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9933" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 hi, anyone have the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card? (32 plus) the one i have (version 1.21) seem to have a lot of problems. i believe the latest version is 1.3 and would someone please upload it to some ftp site so that i can download it. daniel y.h. wong uoft:(416)978-1659 wongda@picton.eecg.toronto.edu electrical engineering 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9934">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9934" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for : windows 3.1. i found 3 shareware workspace managers, from australia's : ms-windows archive (monu6.cc.monash.edu.au), which mirrors some : sites in the u.s. the three i found were: : 1. workspaces 1.10 (wspace.zip) [ review deleted ] : 2. workshift 1.6 (wrksft16.zip) [ review deleted ] : 3. bigdesk 2.30 and backmenu (backdesk.zip) [ review deleted ] i really appreciate this information. however, given that i don't have direct internet access - which means i don't have archie access - i must resort to using ftpmail. this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located. so, can you (or anyone else) post or email me the needed information? thanks very much!!! chris huey tactix reengineering, inc. cah@tactix.rain.com voice: (503) 684-4099 "codecrafters: custom crafted software in about an hour" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9936">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9936" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse.com 8.00 (was using 8.20 i think, but switched to 8.00 to see if it was any better). vertical motion is nice and smooth, but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can't click on something because my mouse jumps around. i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit, then jump to the right, then move smoothly for a bit then jump again (maybe this time to the left about .5 inch!). this is crazy! i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before. anyone have any solutions? does microsoft think they are what everyone should be? <- just venting steam! i think i have the same problem. i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse, which doesn't roll so smooth. the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops, i hit a mine (using minesweeper :-) ). i think the solution will be buying a new mouse, and/or using a mouse pad. and/or taking the rubber ball out of the mouse (should be directions in the manual or on the bottom of the mouse) and cleaning it with alcohol (isopropyl, i believe - the same alcohol as used for cleaning your cassette deck). this is good to do every so often, even if you have a mouse pad. dust still gets caught in the mouse and on the rubber ball. as well, lint and other garbage may find it's way onto the rubber ball and get into the mouse damaging the horizontal and vertical sensors. hope this helps. good luck. robert kayman ---- kayman@cs.stanford.edu -or- cpa@cs.stanford.edu "in theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they are not." "you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised?!?!" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9937">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9937" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the 20/20 drive.. don't laugh ... i am serious... if you have any 20 mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of, please mail me ... -- nilay patel nilayp@violet.berkeley.edu you do mean disks, don't you, not tapes? you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old 8" or the newer 5.25". well...i need the old 8" disks ... you are right, disks is a better word, but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny ... but the appropriate word is disks ... -- nilay patel nilayp@violet.berkeley.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9938">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9938" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to find tom haapanen, formerly tom@wes.on.ca who was the keeper of the faq for this newsgroup. he was working at watrerloo engineering software, but netfind can't even find that (but it may have been a uucp connection). if anyone knows how to contact tom, please let me know. tom schlatter paladin@world.std.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9941">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9941" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 actually, with several sharware utilities, you cn change both. my fav is plug-in. bryan dunne 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9942">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9942" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 : the key issue that i bought my bj-200 on was ink drying speed. i was at the trenton computer fest and there were many sources of ink refills for the hp and canon, so if you don't like the ink you're using, you have a choice. there is a frequently asked question (faq) list that's reposted occasionally that reports how to refill the cartridges yourself with inks that are available from the stationery store instead of a "specialty" ink with the specialty price. i'm not sure, but i think i found another legal source of cheap hypos for injecting ink into the cartridges. more on that when my mail order succeeds. jeffrey jonas jeffj@panix.com 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9944">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9944" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 to clarify: vc++ *is* considered an upgrade for c7. there will be no product called c 8.0 (although the command-line compiler of vc++ lists its version as 8.00). c7 is not a "dos"-only product -- it is a c/c++ compiler capable of producing executables for dos or windows, as is vc++ (pro. ed.). the (significant) difference is that vc++ comes with many windows-hosted tools (ide, etc) which assist developers in creating windows executables much more quickly (basically by automating the thousands of lines of boilerplate code). initial impressions have been very favorable. everyone who is a registered user of c7 should have received a considerable amount of info regarding the specifics of c7. if you haven't, call microsoft and i'm sure they'd be happy to send you some! -jefrem iwaniw pelican software corporation 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9947">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9947" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i'd appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor, especially compared to to nanao 550i. i'd summarize if i got multiple responses. kin cho (kin@isi.com) voice(408) 980-1500 ext. 230 integrated systems inc. fax (408) 980-0400 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9948">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9948" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the 20/20 drive.. don't laugh ... i am serious... if you have any 20 mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of, please mail me ... -- nilay patel nilayp@violet.berkeley.edu you do mean disks, don't you, not tapes? you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old 8" or the newer 5.25". well...i need the old 8" disks ... you are right, disks is a better word, but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny ... but the appropriate word is disks ... gee, i remember the old 8" floppy disks we used on an s-100 cp/m system back in high school. not to mention those old 24" multi-platter disk packs that held about 15mb that went in the big washing machine drives at the local college i took some programming classes at. and this was even in the early '80's.... paladin@world.std.com "a disk is a disk, no matter how great or how small..." paraphrasing gulliver's travels 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9949">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9949" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 i have a modest system of aliases/macros that enables me to download mail from a public access unix system to my ms-dos box. i read and reply to the mail with a ms windows 3.1 based editor. everything works peachey keen as long as the author of the message has maintained his text at 80 col. max. width. sometimes i get slightly wider messages that run off-screen, so i have to use the cursor/slider to read the whole thing. i'm using ndw deskedit mainly, but i've experienced the same prob with all other ms windows editors. i've fiddled with word wrap settings in the various editors, but to no avail. i know i'm missing something very basic in editor setup, but what is it? oh yeah, ms word for windows converts everything flawlessly but for what i'm looking for that's like using a tank to crack walnuts. i'd really like to have an editor setup that would display all incoming ascii files in a readable format to my screen. thanks in advance, erich w. lantz ama #601821 ewl@world.std.com distributor of deflagration #0815 '85 virago " well yer dead now, so shut up! " - m.p. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9950">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9950" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : the key issue that i bought my bj-200 on was ink drying speed. you really : have to try awful hard to get the bj-200 ink to smear. the hp deskjets need : 10-15 seconds to completely dry. in both cases, however, do not get your : pages wet. unlike laser printers, the material on your pages is ink, not : toner. but that should go without saying. i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water-fast. i've had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain. these were colour pictures from a deskjet 500c. mind you, it could have been acid rain:-) i use a bj10ex. ink dries fast, but it really doesn't like getting wet. |justin whitton at ma90jjw%hermes@uk.mod.relay |where no man has gone before..| |after august mail ma90jjw@brunel.ac.uk. \------------------------------| |disclaimer: my opinions count for nothing, except when the office is empty. | |i'm a student => intelligence = 0. | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9952">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9952" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 if i put lastdrive = z in my config.sys, netx will run but i can't access drive f: to log in to novell. if i don't put lastdrive = z in my config.sys i can't access other w4wg drives from the file-manager. it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive = statement in my config.sys. first off, i haven't used w4wg (but i think that's about to change!). the problem is the lastdrive command and the way netware in general (and in this case netx in particular) adds drives to the device chain. setting lastdrive=z means there are no "unassigned" (as opposed to "unused") drive letters for netware to use, as it tacks its drive mappings -onto the end- of the existing list of drives. w4wg obviously attaches its network drives to "existing, unused" drive letters. i'd guess the next thing i'd try is something like lastdrive=m, which on most machines will leave a fair swathe of drives for w4wg and still allow up to 13 netware drive mappings as well. w4wg requires dos drives. i use lastdrive=j which makes my first novell drive k and leaves me drives g, h, i and j for w4wg. my local dos drives use a-f. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9953">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9953" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 @eid:b486 85210000 i have a 120 mb hard drive. what should i set the compression ratio at using dos's double disk? do i have to format erase everything to double the full 120 mb to 240? can i just make a mirror of my hard drive? thanx 4 the help! darren lavallee --- wm v2.08/92-0279 * origin: 705-256-csrn 35,000+ files, 6 lines, internet/usenet, 1(1:222 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9955">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9955" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 recently the following problem has arrisen. the first time i turn on my computer when windows starts (from my autoexec) after the win31 title screen the computer reboots on its own. usually the second time (after reboot) or from the dos prompt everything works fine. s far as i remember i have not changed my config.sys or autoxec.bat or win.ini. i can't remember whether this problem occured before i optimized/defragmented my disk and created a larger swap file (thank you mathcad 4 :( ) system 386sx, 4mb, stacker 2.0, win31, dos 5 | carlos g. niederstrasser | only two things are infinite, | | princeton planetary society | the universe and human | | | stupidity, and i'm not sure | | | about the former. - einstein | | carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------| | space@phoenix.princeton.edu | ad astra per ardua nostra | 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9957">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9957" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 is there anybody who knows the telephone number of cirrus logic co., maker of a graphic card? please reply to chen@cfa.harvard.edu thank you very much. hua chen center for astrophysics bbs number 510-226-2365 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9958">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9958" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 (2) can you set up a short-cut key to return to the program manager? i know <ctl><esc>, <esc> will do it, but i'd rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p/m with <alt><f1>. you might try the recorder and make a micro. i done that to do certain operations in a windows app that didn't have the ability to use a micro. it should be in the accessories window. the only problem is that it has to be runing for it to work. but, good luck. --warren e. fridy iii 250 61st. street north | st. petersburg, fl 33710 | internet: wefiii%axion@palan.palantir.com (813)384-0584 | uucp: ...palan!deep6!axion!wefiii 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9962">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9962" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 could you post a description of objectbase, your chosen 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9963">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9963" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 ok will some one out there tell me why / how dos 5 can read (i havn't tried writing in case it breaks something) the win/nt ntfs file system. i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9965">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9965" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
 sorry about that - don't want to alarm anyone... i don't think there is any correlation between the crashes and pctools. i reinstalled ami pro, and ran compress again, with no problems. i think problems may have been related to filling my disk until it had 0 bytes (!) left while ftping, although i would think it wouldn't matter since ami pro wasn't running at the time, and i made space available immediately anyways. but, whatever, the cause, it is working now. 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9966">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9966" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 : thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for : windows 3.1. i found 3 shareware workspace managers, from australia's : ms-windows archive (monu6.cc.monash.edu.au), which mirrors some : sites in the u.s. the three i found were: : 1. workspaces 1.10 (wspace.zip) [ review deleted ] : 2. workshift 1.6 (wrksft16.zip) [ review deleted ] : 3. bigdesk 2.30 and backmenu (backdesk.zip) [ review deleted ] i really appreciate this information. however, given that i don't have direct internet access - which means i don't have archie access - i must resort to using ftpmail. this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located. backdesk.zip is on cica, but i'm not sure of the whole directory. another to throw into the running is topdesk. it is alsow on cica, but i'm not sure where. it is more complicated then backdesk, but i've found it to be more stable and more usefull. i recomend it to people who have already used a virtual desktop. oh yeh, it's free. copyright microsoft and sanford staab. zmola@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9973">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9973" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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 has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card. is only in windows. i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers. also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf.drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup. i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application. these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs. what a hassle. running on gateway 2000 dx2/50. thx dave l might the problem not be with the video monitor instead? many of our monitors, as they age, develop shadows on white and bright colors. peter goudswaard _________ _________ goudswaa@sfu.ca (preferred) | | __/^\__ | | pgoudswa@cln.etc.bc.ca | | \ / | | pgoudswa@cue.bc.ca | | _/\_\ /_/\_ | | "there's no gift like the present" | >_________< | | - goudswaard's observation |_________| | |_________| 
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<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9979">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9979" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9981">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9981" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9982">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9982" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9984">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9984" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
<context>
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9987">
<answer instance="comp.os.ms-windows.misc9987" senseid="comp.os.ms-windows.misc"/>
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max>'ax>'ax>',3'$9f9f"z6ei:6ei4='1]_?w]_?>giz*bj[7@,#`yd]tm+2 mtm(]/3t]/3t]/9f9`p,#`p,#`yf9f9f9/3t]/3v9`uz[nrizwt>e9f;$,3$q m,8>'ax>'ax>'ax>'as&'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax<qq,0q,3'$q,3$,3$q,<0qax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax<q,3'$ mq#$q,3$qax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>',3%f9@ne1]]z>bj[n[m>7@.9/3w2 -------- end of part 13 of 14 -------- 
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max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>' max>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'ax>'as$q,3$q,<3$q,3$q,3$q&8+"z6e1t='1]_? m>ghjn[n[nuy>7@,#`p,#`p,#`p.9f0,#`p,#`p,#f9f9/3t]tm+2tm+2tm+2 -------- end of part 12 of 14 -------- 
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 i recently purchased a diamond stealth 24 video card and received the wrong drivers. does anyone know where i can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth 24. i tried the drivers at cica and they don't work. the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost 1 meg and it would take a while to download them at 2400 baud. any information would be appreciated. please contact me at doug@sun.sws.uiuc.edu thank you doug ward 
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 a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation. once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc. unfortunately there is still a "ghost" of spss left: when i run something like "write" and go to embed an object then "spss chart" appears on the list of objects i'm offered. i looked around all the obvious "ini" files without success. the next thing i tried was looking for the string "spss chart" in every file in the windows directory. it turned up in a file called req.dat (or reg.dat). unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn't feel inclined to edit it. i'd welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers. chris wooff (c.wooff@liverpool.ac.uk) you can edit that file with a utility that comes with windows 3.1 called "regedit" (registration info editor) ++++ bob hodge ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + "i'm going fishing." "you got worms?" "yeah, but i'm going anyway!" + 
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 ok will some one out there tell me why / how dos 5 can read (i havn't tried writing in case it breaks something) the win/nt ntfs file system. i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system dos 5.0/6.0 cannot read the ntfs file system, although the ntfs file system can read the fat file system of dos. i have windowsnt on a seperate partition on my machine at home, and i can read my dos disks from windows nt, but not vice-versa. as far as the robustness of the file system, it seems to be very fast, and i have yet to have a single problem with it. that doesn't prove it's better than the fat system though. read the book 'inside windows nt,' it will give you all the info you're looking for. scott reimert \ reimert@mamacass.etdesg.trw.com /standard disclaimer: redondo beach, ca \______________________________________/"blah blah blah ... " __________________|always store beer in a cool dark place|_____________________ 
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 i'd appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor, especially compared to to nanao 550i. i'd summarize if i got multiple responses. i bought a viewsonic 17 for use at home but after a week i took it back. i felt for the money my nec 5fg that i use at work was a much better monitor. the nec is sharper, flatter, less distorted, and more stable. i have heard complaints from people about the nec fg series having some quality control problems but mine has been in use for about a year with no problems at all. there was nothing really broken with the viewsonic but overall it did not match up. i used my ati graphics ultra in setup mode to push the frequencies to their limits and the viewsonic exhibited some problems that the nec did not. i personally like the non-etched nec with the ocli filter and the tube on the 17 was not as nice. the 17 had some uncorrectable pincusion and edge distortion problems. also, it would change brightness when i switched modes and i was constantly having to fiddle with the controls. and the yoke was crooked and i had no way to compensate for the raster that tilted downhill. on the postive side, although not as handsome as the nec, the 17 had a smaller footprint and was not as heavy. i have heard that panasonic owns viewsonic and the model 17 is being sold through oem channels with a panasonic label on it. if it's available that way at a lower cost i could get more serious about it. for now the nec has my vote but i'm searching for one of the new, cheaper, nec 5fge's to see if it's just as good as its older brother the 5fg before i decide which one to i have no experience with the nanao. i can never keep the nanao models straight and don't have any place i can walk in to get a good comparison of all models. standard employer disclaimers apply keith w. johnson tektronix, gpi/nd info services, wilsonville, or, usa internet: keith.w.johnson@tek.com voice: 503-685-2953 fax: 503-682-3595 
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 does anyone know a program that will record keyboard sequences that i do in a windowed dos box? i would like to have something that starts a telnet program and then logs me into my accounts. windows recorder doesn't seem to be able to record the key sequences. thanks, steve 
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 i think it would be a great idea to have a new group created: comp.sys.ibm.pc.flame.therapy anybody agree? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58828">
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 summary: location of cap lock and ctrl keys on pc keyboard does anyone know of a software that can exchange caps lock and ctrl keys on the at-style keyboard? i'm looking for a memory resident program that can work with other programs, rather than a feature in a specific program (i am aware of a shareware program "back and forth" that provides this feature within that program). thanks. a program in the archive keymap00.zip on simtel and mirror sites in the msdos/keyboard directory will do this. it is written in assembler and it best if you have a compiler to create a new keyboard map. it is possible, however, to use a binary editor to edit the provided compiled keyboard driver if you do not have a compiler. i used hexed100.zip, also available on simtel. simply serach for the codes 00 01 02 03 to locate the biginning of the "normal" keyboard map. then swap the codes for the keys that you wish to swap. see the keyboard directory of simtel for programs that report the scancode for each key to you (some bios programs also have this info). good luck, | peter j. mckinney pm860605@longs.lance.colostate.edu | | electrohydrodynamic laboratory | | fluid mechanics and wind engineering program | | civil engineering department | | colorado state university | 
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 i need a device (either an isa board or a subsystem) which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according to a template. the template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior. but i beleive fancier harware may also exist which i do not want to exclude from my search. i know this sort of hardware exists for ntsc, etc. but i need it for rgb. please email and or post any leads.... gordon lang (glang@smail.srl.ford.com -or- glang@holo6.srl.ford.com) 
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 it is model number #7033d, a 14" interlaced .28dp. btw, if you have a number to contact the company, that would really be helpful to. thanks for replying. i was beginning to believe that i was never going to get a reply. i posted this on the netnews bboard because the first message i sent to you was returned, and i didn't know if my second message would get to you. 
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 i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway 2000 486-33dx vl-bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb. when i have my computer in any resolution other than 800x600, everything is fine, but whenever i use it in 800x600 (windows, autocad, gifs) the screen gets about 1 1/2 inches shorter. at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a 3/4" bar of black. the screen isn't cut off, it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio. while i can manually change the v-size on the back, this is a pain in the ass, and it just shouldn't happen anyway. i've called gateway numerous times and they haven't been able to help me at all. two different times they sent me a new card, and both times the new card didn't work at all in my computer. they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn't get it back in a couple of days, when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than 2 weeks before billing my card. but their customer support is a different story... so, if anyone has had this same problem, please let me know if you know what to do. hell, let me know if you don't have a solution, just so i know i'm not the only one with this problem. thanks in advance. jude m. greer jmgree01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu p.s. i already tried going into the mach 32 install program and manually set- ting up the card. doesn't work. whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the 800x600 screen, it just starts to cut off the top and bottom. 
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 i have a gateway2000 483/33 local bus system. it has 4 slots for simms that either have to use 4 or 16mb simms. my question: i just received a 4x9 70ns simm and it has ~30 pins. the slot on the motherboard has at least 70 or so pins. did i get the wrong simm or can i still use my simm , although not all the pins on the slot would be flilled. i have never encountered such a long slot for simms before. anyone have suggestions? i can't get a hold of gateway yet. thanks please post to the net or : nshah@acs.bu.edu yes, you bought the wrong simms.....you need 1x36 or 4x36, which are 72 pin simms.....these are better anyway becuase the send/receive data in 4byte (32bit+4bit parity, one for each byte) chunks. you will undoubtedly see these simms becoming more widely used in the near future. * jason walters * * jpw0@lehigh.edu * *jpw0@pl122.eecs.lehigh.edu* * a.k.a. modem mouth * 
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 : most, if not all, credit card companies offer to double the warranty up : to one year, namely, if you make a purchase by a credit card, you get : additional warranty up to one year. does it apply to the purchase of : computers? i wonder if anyone out there has used it. is there any catch? : thanks in advance. i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase. one of the key points was the ability to use my american express card. i read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank visa. sure, both will allow you double warranty on computers, but citibank has a maximum claim of $250.00. could you imagine trying to get your monitor or mother board fixed for $250.00? amex has no limit on claims. remember, if you use amex, you must either send a copy of the warranty info to them in 30 days from purchase, or you must call them to pre-register and then send them the paperwork within 90 days of purchase (my pre-register pak arrived today). citibank visa requires no pre-registration. --ken 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58839">
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 where can i get the winmarks benchmark to run on my pc? via ftp would be best. bix: ruzun net: uzun@crash.cts.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58840">
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 i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway 2000 486-33dx vl-bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb. when i have my computer in any resolution other than 800x600, everything is fine, but whenever i use it in 800x600 (windows, autocad, gifs) the screen gets about 1 1/2 inches shorter. at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a 3/4" bar of black. the screen isn't cut off, it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio. while i can manually change the v-size on the back, this is a pain in the ass, and it just shouldn't happen anyway. i've called gateway numerous times and they haven't been able to help me at all. two different times they sent me a new card, and both times the new card didn't work at all in my computer. they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn't get it back in a couple of days, when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than 2 weeks before billing my card. but their customer support is a different story... so, if anyone has had this same problem, please let me know if you know what to do. hell, let me know if you don't have a solution, just so i know i'm not the only one with this problem. thanks in advance. jude m. greer jmgree01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu p.s. i already tried going into the mach 32 install program and manually set- ting up the card. doesn't work. whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the 800x600 screen, it just starts to cut off the top and bottom. maybe its a monitor problem. you mentioned that you swapped cards, but not monitors. perhaps that could be it. daniel matthew coleman | internet: dcoleman@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu -----------------------------------+---------- : dcoleman@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu the university of texas at austin | decnet: utxvms::dcoleman electrical/computer engineering | bitnet: dcoleman@utxvms [.bitnet] 
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 : in article <c4ueom.evf@odin.corp.sgi.com>, mikey@sgi.com (mike yang) says: : >so, by going mailorder through gateway, i save ~13%. plus, i get : >technical support over the phone, free software package. : have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone. at least : locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong, and : he has to fix it. phone support is quick and competent from many mail order firms, but not so quick and not so competent from others (gateway included). but my experience with computer retailers (which is significant) has lead to the conclusion that sales personnel and retail-technical personnel are forbidden to actually learn about the products they sell. talk about incompetent! o.k., so a few percent of their answers are correct, but those salesmen don't even realize how stupid they are. ... ....... o.k. ...i'll settle down now.... .... let me catch my breath..... .. fact: retail stores never provide a better value in terms of price per product. retail outlets are desirable, however, to those people who aren't interested in learning about computers enough to make their own decisions. this is fine; for example most of my education about carpeting, wall paper, lawn mowers, microwave ovens, etc. has come from sales personnel. i assume i must be an idiot. but i don't care about those things. i do, however, care about my computer - i.e. i demand features and performance, and i'll be damned if i'll pay some high-school drop out commission on an over-rated, over-priced system and in the process be subjected to his distorted b.s. g.l. are generally so 
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 : shadow mask is when you put your face into : main memory. keep your day job. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58862">
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 thanks to all who responded to my original post. i got the number for western digital tech support and determined that i need to upgrade the bios to the super bios. it will handle hard drives with up to 16 read/ write heads and up to 1024 cylinders. the upgrade is $15, payable by check or money order. send to: western digital corporation technical support group p.o. box 19665 irvine, ca 92713-9665 the super bios is for any wd xt hard drive controller card in the wd1002 series. the bios on my system would only handle up to 20mb drives. the responses to my request for help follow my .sig. warning: it's long. __-----____--___--__-----____ d. keith rice __--__--___--__--___--__--___ university of north texas __--___--__--_--____--___--__ department of computer science __--___--__----_____--__--___ denton, texas, usa __--___--__--_--____--_--____ __--__--___--__--___--__--___ drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu __-----____--___--__--___--__ drice@cs.unt.edu <========================== responses below ==========================> from ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu sat apr 3 16:45:03 1993 received: from mailbox.syr.edu by ponder (5.61/1.36) id aa15218; sat, 3 apr 93 16:45:00 -0600 received: from mothra.syr.edu by mailbox.syr.edu (4.1/cns) id aa16647; sat, 3 apr 93 17:44:49 est received: by mothra.syr.edu (4.1/spike-2.0) id aa03607; sat, 3 apr 93 17:43:27 est message-id: <9304032243.aa03607@mothra.syr.edu> to: drice@ponder status: or to: drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware in-reply-to: <drice.733866833@ponder> organization: syracuse university, syracuse, ny cc: i recently bought a used seagate st-251 hard drive. the guy told me that it had been fully tested and that it was good. i took it home to install in my compaq portable (ok, i'm a little behind in technology). i already had an mfm controller. i installed the drive and powered up the system. i got a post error, "1701". my controller is a western digital wd1002s-wx2 rev. c. as i said above, the drive is a seagate st-251. the system is a compaq portable (circa 1985). ah, finally a question i can answer. i mess with this older stuff alot. kinda fun. 8) first problem i can forsee is that the st-251 will not be compadible with that wd card unless it has the right bios rom. check the numbers on it. it should be the only non-smt chip on the board. slightly below center, and left. the bios should read either : 62-000042-015 or 62-000094-0x2 if the last 3 digits are 013, you got problems. controller jumpers are set as follows: ("-" represents jumper) w1 1-2 3 w2 1-2 3 w3 1-2 w4 1 2-3 w5 1 2 3 w6 1-2 3 w7 1 2 3 looks right. w5 and w7 are factory jumped (with a trace) between pins 1 and 2 to select the primary controller address. the drive jumpers are as follows: ("8" represents jumper) looks right. [art deleted] here are my questions: 1.) are the drive and controller compatible w/ each other? i notice you left out the s1 jumper table settings. those are what control what drive the controller thinks it has. if you have the 62-000042-015 rom, set it like this: 5 + + open 6 + + open 7 + + open 8 + + open 4 + + closed 3 + + closed 2 + + open 1 + + open note: those are how wd runs the numbers on the jumper block. top to bottom. +'s represent the jumper pins. pins 3,4, and 8 select the first drive setting (drive 0) and pins 1,2 and 7 select the second drive (drive 1). if you have the 62-000094 rom, it's a auto-config, and i'll have to look up how to do it... i don't have the big book right here. 2.) are the jumpers on the card/drive set correctly? see above. you might have problems if the s1 jumpers are not right. also, at the risk of being insulting, make sure the cables are on right and good. 8). on the jumper on the 251, try moving it to the opposite side of the drive. it's one or the other. the narrow data cable goes to j2. i've thrown it on j3 a few times and banged my head for a day..... 3.) is my system's bios in need of an upgrade? dunno. ibm roms had to be later than 10/27/82. a quick way to check is to boot dos and run debug. enter: -d f000:fff5 fffc (the - is the debug prompt) this will return the rom date, if it's of any use. keith rice if i oversimplified any of the above, i appologize. it's just hard to know what caliber of person i'm talking to. 8). --> bob valentine <-- --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <-- from chpp@unitrix.utr.ac.za mon apr 5 06:33:46 1993 received: from unitrix.utr.ac.za by ponder (5.61/1.36) id aa16194; mon, 5 apr 93 06:32:59 -0500 received: by unitrix.utr.ac.za (smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0nfpma-0001x7c; mon, 5 apr 93 13:28 gmt message-id: <m0nfpma-0001x7c@unitrix.utr.ac.za> to: drice@ponder x-mailer: elm [version 2.4 pl11] mime-version: 1.0 content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii content-transfer-encoding: 7bit content-length: 24559 status: or if you are using a twisted 34-way cable then move the jumper on your drive to the neighbouring pins :8::::::. make sure that the twisted cable is for a hard disk (and not a floppy disk) - the coloured stripe (pin 1) should be furthest from the twist. this may also help. products for xt systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives reference note 1. wd1002a-wx1, feature f300r - half-slot size hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables. built in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems. please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer (western digital) after march, 1989. reference note 2. wdxt-gen, feature f300r - half-slot size hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm hard disk drives with up to 8 heads and 1024 cylinders. built-in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer (western digital) after march, 1989. wd1004a-wx1, feature f300r - half-slot size disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables. built in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems. reference note 2. wdxt-gen2, feature f300r - half-slot size hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm hard disk drives with up to 8 heads and 1024 cylinders. built-in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. reference note 2. hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives reference note 2. wd1002-27x, feature f301r - half-slot size hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables. built in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems. please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer (western digital) after march, 1989. reference note 2. wd1002a-27x, feature 300r - half-slot size hard disk controller with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders. built-in rom bios supports non- standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer (western digital) after march, 1989. wd1004-27x, feature f301r - half-slot size hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables. built in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, dual drive operation, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. this board features a power connection for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems. reference note 2. wd1004a-27x, feature f300r - half-slot size hard disk controller with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll drives with up to 16 heads and 1024 cylinders. built-in rom bios supports non-standard drive types, virtual drive formatting, bad track formatting and dynamic formatting. note 1: at&t 6300 - the at&t 6300 and the at&t 6300 plus contain system bios chips that support the hard disk drive. when using a western digital xt controller card the system will not "boot." to solve this problem, one of the rom bios chips must be disabled. to disable the bios on your western digital xt controller card, you must remove the jumper at position w-3 or add a jumper at position r-23 (depending on which model of xt controller you are using). -2- note 2: tandy 1000 systems - the wd1002a-wx1, wd1004a-wx1, wdxt-gen2 and the wd1004-27x can be modified to operate in tandy 1000 series computers, models sx, tx and the original or "a" version. these computers utilize an interrupt of 2 (irq2) instead of irq5, the ibm standard. to modify the wd1002a-wx1 or the wd1002-27x to operate in these systems, you must cut the etch between pin 1 and pin 2 at jumper position w-7. then solder pin 2 and pin 3 at the position (w-7). to complete the modification, a jumper must be added to position 7 of switch s-1 (2 rows of 8 pins). please note that any physical modification to your western digital hard disk controller voids the warranty on your board. to modify the wd1004a-wx1, wdxt-gen2 or the wd1004-27x for your tandy 1000 system, a zero ohm resister must be soldered to jumper position w-27. this will change the interrupt from irq5 to irq2. xt controllers for floppy disk drives wd1002a-fox - half-slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems. four versions of the board are available: feature f001 supports two floppy disk drives. feature f002 supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional 37-pin control, data and power connector and an optional 4-pin power connector. feature f003 supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drive that may not be supported by your at system rom bios. the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system. feature f004 supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional 37-pin control, data and power connector, an optional 4-pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios. the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system. -3- products for at systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives - no floppy support wd1003-wah, feature f003r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 3:1 interleave. wd1003v-mm1, feature f300r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 2:1 interleave. the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). wd1006-wah , feature f001r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave. wd1006v-mm1, feature f300r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave and faster data transfer due to "look ahead caching." the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd1003-wa2, feature f003r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface, full at form factor. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, at 3:1 interleave and 2 floppy disk drives (360k and 1.2 mb). wd1003a-wa2, feature f003r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface, full xt form factor. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, at 3:1 interleave and 2 floppy disk drives (360k and 1.2 mb). wd1003v-mm2, feature f300r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 2:1 interleave, and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44mb). the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems, (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). wd1006v-mm2, feature f300r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 1:1 interleave and faster data transfer due to "look ahead caching" and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems, (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). -4- hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives - no floppy support wd1003-rah - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 3:1 interleave. wd1003v-sr1 - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 2:1 interleave. the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive's parameters. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1006-rah - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave. feature f001r includes an optional rom bios that provides additional drive parameter tables. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1006v-sr1 - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave and faster data transfer due to "look ahead caching." the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive's parameters. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd1003-ra2, feature f001r - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, at 3:1 interleave, and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb). -5- wd1003v-sr2 - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, at 2:1 interleave, and 2 floppy disk drives, (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). the "v" boards run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive's parameters. feature 300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1006v-sr2 - hard disk controller card with an st506/st412 interface. it supports a maximum of 2 rll hard disk drives with up to 16 heads, 2048 cylinders and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). it also features 1:1 interleave and faster data transfer due to "look ahead caching". the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive's parameters. feature 300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives - no floppy support - wd1007a-wah - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 10 megabit per second data transfer rate and 1:1 interleave. feature f301r includes an optional rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1007v-se1/me1 - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 15 megabit per second data transfer rate and 1:1 interleave. the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems, (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. -6- hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives and floppy disk wd1007a-wa2 - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 10 megabit per second data transfer rate, 1:1 interleave and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1007v-se2/me2 - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 15 megabit per second data transfer rate, 1:1 interleave and 2 floppy drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 12 megahertz bus speed). feature f301r includes an optional rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters. wd1007a-wa4 - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 10 megabit per second data transfer rate, 1:1 interleave and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360k, 1.2 mb; 3-1/2" 720k, 1.44 mb). this board also has a serial port and parallel feature f301r includes an optional rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios. feature f300r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system's rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameter. -7- hard disk controllers for scsi hard disk drives 7000-asc - a scsi host adapter that serves as an interface between the at bus and the scsi bus. all necessary drivers and receivers are included, permitting direct cable connections to the scsi bus through a 50 pin connector and to the at bus through two edge connectors. the 7000-asc utilizes jumper configurable options that enable the address space, dma channels and interrupt requests to be selected to suit the end user's application. the board also features word data transfer at 4 megabytes per second (synchronous), an on-board floppy disk controller and a rom bios. please note that the 7000-asc operates using standard dos 3.2 or dos 3.3 only. 7000-fasst2 - this scsi host adapter card provides the same features as the 7000-asc plus additional support capabilities using software developed by columbia data products. the 7000- fasst2 will support ms-dos 3.2-3.3, compaq dos 3.31, pc-dos 4.0, pc-mos/386 version 2.1, xenix, microsoft windows, novell and sytos tape backup. wdatxt-fasst kit - an "unintelligent" scsi host adapter that is compatible with the ibm xt, at and compatible systems. it uses a 50 pin external scsi bus "d" connector with a standard 50 pin internal scsi cable. the wdatxt-fasst can be used as both a target and an initiator and it serves as an excellent tool for scsi designers. it also provides a low cost alternative for end- users desiring to install a scsi peripheral device such as a hard disk drive or a tape backup unit. the kit includes an 8-bit scsi hba board, manual, fasst software diskettes and an internal scsi cable. sytos tape backup - (utility for 7000-fasst) - fasst-sytos - fasst version of sytos tape backup utilities. ms-dos compatible, it runs with fasst software products revision 3.3+. hard disk controllers for ps/2 model 50, 60, 80 systems (microchannel architecture) wd1006v-mc1, feature f300r - hard disk controller with an st506/st412 interface for microchannel systems. it supports 2 mfm drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave and faster data transfer due to "look ahead caching." the"v" boards can run in high speed at systems (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). -8- wd1007v-mc1, feature f300r - this controller card will support up to 2 esdi hard disk drives, 15 megabit per second transfer rate and it contains a rom bios with "shadow ram" that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi hard disk drives without modifying the system bios. it uses 1:1 interleave. the "v" boards can run in high speed at systems, (10 to 12 megahertz bus speed). controllers for floppy disk drives only wd1002a-fox - half-slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems. four versions of the board are available: feature f001 supports two floppy disk drives. feature f002 supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional 37-pin control, data and power connector and an optional 4-pin power connector. feature f003 supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios. the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system. feature f004 supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional 37-pin control, data and power connector, an optional 4-pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios. the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system. prof. l. piacenza - chemistry department - university of transkei internet: chpp@unitrix.utr.ac.za (preferred). tel. 27-471-3022384 internet: sppp@hippo.ru.ac.za from necis!mydual.uucp!olson@transfer.stratus.com mon apr 5 12:14:06 1993 received: from transfer.stratus.com by ponder (5.61/1.36) id aa29202; mon, 5 apr 93 12:14:03 -0500 received: from necis.uucp by transfer.stratus.com (4.1/3.12-jjm) id aa22183; mon, 5 apr 93 13:12:04 edt received: from mydual by necis.necis.ma.nec.com id aa21760; 5 apr 93 12:50 edt received: by mydual.uucp (5.58/smail2.5/09-28-87) id aa18009; mon, 5 apr 93 13:24:23 est message-id: <9304051824.aa18009@mydual.uucp> to: drice@ponder newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware in-reply-to: <drice.733866833@ponder> organization: the harvard group, 01451-0667 reply-to: necis!olson%mydual.uucp@transfer.stratus.com cc: status: or suggest you move jumper on drive rightward one position. --kirt kirtland h olson harvard ma 01451-0667 usa olson%mydual.uucp@necis.ma.nec.com 
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 can someone give me the specs on a null modem cable, i ferget which get crossed.... =-) mal112@psuvm.psu.edu that's an easy one... carry all 25 pins straight thru, with the exception of pins 2 & 3, which should be crossed... as someone else already mentioned, don't "carry thru" the other 23 pins. plan a, minimal null modem: sg(7) - sg(7) td(2) - rd(3) rd(3) - td(2) if you're transfering files betwen 2 pcs, this ought to work (unless you have a persnickity comm program). plan b, null modem with modem control: sg(7) - sg(7) td(2) - rd(3) rd(3) - td(2) dcd(8) - dtr(20) dtr(20) - dcd(8) some comm software will wait for dcd before transferring anything. such software will raise dtr to enable the modem to accept a call. with this cable, each side's dtr will drive the other's dcd. plan c, null modem with hardware flow control: sg(7) - sg(7) td(2) - rd(3) rd(3) - td(2) rts(4) - cts(5) cts(5) - rts(4) for high-speed transfers, you want the flow control. plan d, deluxe null modem (combine b and c): sg(7) - sg(7) td(2) - rd(3) rd(3) - td(2) rts(4) - cts(5) cts(5) - rts(4) dcd(8) - dtr(20) dtr(20) - dcd(8) this one is ideal. it leaves out dsr and ri (rarely used anymore). if you're really paranoid, or you just have an 8th wire to spend, you might add: fg(1) - fg(1) the pin numbers above are (obviously) for 25-pin connectors. i don't have a 9-pin pinout handy. wayne hamilton i'net: hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu lowtek: box 476, urbana, il 61801; (217)384-4310(voice), -4311(bbs) 
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 hi all, i have heard that somewhere there exist programmable keyboards, eg. one can program displays on the keys to show some specific characters, et.c. does it mean that there is some way of transmitting some "non-trivial" data to the kb (as opposed to standard numlock/... on-off, typeamatic specs.) from inside the pc software? i have not found any corresponding reference in the specs for the 8042 pc-kb interface. anyone have any ideas? (except that they may encode data by the sequences of the standard commands mentioned above, which wouldn't look too neat, besides, what would one do from an xt?) great thanks in advance, 
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 : as far as i can tell, the md is an offshoot of technology that already exists. : it is an mo drive. mo drives exist already for computers. they're expensive : and a bit slow, but the disks are cheep (128 mb disks). dan. i read a recent article in personal computer world mainly about the new digit audion formats (dcc and md) but at the end talked about how nice it would be to use these for data storage with a brief calculation of how much data you could store. the author had been talking to someone from sony about these formats and mentioned this to get the reply "md is a purely audio format, we wouldn't use it for data", then when pressed for info about mo the sony man basically admitted that it was no more than a slight adaptabtion on md! what i think the original poster was wanting was mo drives at md audio player prices. i'd assume that the problem here is that an md system can have higher tolerances than an mo system as the ear doesn't pick up the occasional bit error as well as an archiving program! david shepherd: des@inmos.co.uk tel: 0454-616616 x 625 inmos ltd, 1000 aztec west, almondsbury, bristol, bs12 4sq "they didn't like the rates, they don't like the poll tax, and they won't like the council tax." - nicholas ridley 
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 could someone tell me if the ati graphic ultra pro is supported in a version of vpic now. if so where is it located. email replies would be appreciated :-) = robert merlicek cbr600 from hell = = robert@ctpm.uq.oz.au engage ludicrous speed = 
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 just a quick thanks to the many who explained the backing up of my masters. apparently they are not copy-protected; i just used a program that is unable to handle high-density (old shit). i was surprised to hear that "no programs on high-density disks have copy protection," which someone back there said. huh! learn something new every day! 
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 ay> in many recent advertisements i have seen both "486dx-50" and "486dx ay>based systems. does the first really exists and does it imply that all ay>circuitry on the motherboard with it works at that speed, as opposite ay>latter, where only the internals of the cpu are working at 50mhz? ay> ay> many thanx in advance! ay> ay>andrew. andrew, yes there is a dx and dx2 version of the 50mhz 486. if you are considering buying one or the other, definitely go for the dx with a nice size external cache! the performance is far greater. the dx2 only has the internal 8k cache to work with at 50mhz, while the dx has a potentially much larger cache to work at 50mhz with. neither systems could actually run a program out of main memory, since dram is still too slow for that high of bus speed ( 60ns = 16.66mhz < 50mhz ). . winqwk 2.0b#0 . unregistered evaluation copy * kmail 2.95d w-net hq, hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us, +1 313 663 4173 or 3959 | hal 9000 bbs: qwk-to-usenet gateway | four 14400 v.32bis dial-ins | | free usenet mail and 200 newsgroups! | pcboard 14.5am * uupcb * kmail | | call +1 313 663 4173 or 663 3959 +--------------------------------+ | member of eff, asp, asad * 1500mb disk * serving ann arbor since 1988 | 
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 km> is the 486dx3/99 anything more than a myth? i haven't heard of it km>from any source that i trust, and i sure don't see any ads for dx3/99 km>machines in computer shopper. intel is pretty busy with the pentium km>right now; i can't seem them introducing their own competition. i heard the rumor as well, but the story differed. intel was not coming out with the tripling clock 486, a clone from ibm was. i got this rumor from a pretty good source ( has designs computer equipment, and hav never been wrong let, but there is a first time for everything. ) ... i can just hear that rumor-mill turning now ... . winqwk 2.0b#0 . unregistered evaluation copy * kmail 2.95d w-net hq, hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us, +1 313 663 4173 or 3959 | hal 9000 bbs: qwk-to-usenet gateway | four 14400 v.32bis dial-ins | | free usenet mail and 200 newsgroups! | pcboard 14.5am * uupcb * kmail | | call +1 313 663 4173 or 663 3959 +--------------------------------+ | member of eff, asp, asad * 1500mb disk * serving ann arbor since 1988 | 
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 i saw a posting about the choice between 80486dx-50 and a 80486dx2-50. i was wondering: although a dx-50 is faster because of the path to it's external cache, shouldn't the choice be the dx2-50 as that one can be made to work properly with a local-bus? i mean, cache speed is one thing, but all your speed will be blocked during video i/o, so just get that faster... i'm willing to speculate that the dx2-50 with local-bus will be 2-4 times as fast as the dx-50 and probably as expensive (or cheap ;-)! regards, jv name: j-v meuldijk [ o o ] address: gildelaar 4 \_=_/ 4847 hw teteringen _| |_ holland e-mail: volkert@kub.nl / \_/ \ 
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 is it possible to connect a atari monochrome monitor to some kind of vga card? if someone have done this please let me know how. __ __ _ _ l \ / l ___ ( \/ ) max brante m88max@tdb.uu.se l l l l l / _ \ \ / l l\_/l l( (_) l / \ institutionen f|r teknisk databehandling l_l l_l \__l_l(_/\_) uppsala universitet 
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 i own a stealth 24 card from diamond. when using the 640x480x16.7mil win 3.1 driver the card and driver work but are not very fast. all of the other windows drivers have a number of bugs. shadows remain when windows are erased and text boxes are often unreadable. all attempts to get help from diamond have failed. i have called the tech support and never been able to get past the hold line (a toll call) in a reasonable time (ie 10min). leaving voice mail has not helped either. the bbs is a joke! it always has too many people on to download anything. you cannot even get a file listing (it considers that a download!). i have faxed the tech support group. all this with no reponse. the bottom line is if you are looking for a fast card and want to use it for windows, do not get a diamond product. try another vendor, i wish i had. while others here may have had better experiences, i, too, share the sentiments posted above. though i have the original stealth/vram, it is only "relatively" recent that the windows drivers for this card have evolved to a point of decent performance. note that there are still a couple of modes i cannot use (ie. will not) due to shadowing, mis-drawn check boxes, etc. i believe the version i have is 2.01. if there's a more recent release, i'd appreciate if someone would drop me a note to let me know -- i haven't been able to get on their bbs lately to check again. naturally, diamond doesn't even bother notifying me of fixes/releases. diamond was helpful when i finally reached the "right" person in curing some of my windows' problems due to an address conflict. the conflicting addresses (2e0, 2e8) were omitted in at least my version of the diamond/vram manual. i hope it has been corrected by now. the tech rep explained that all s3-based boards use these addresses. i have not confirmed the validity of that statement. when i upgrade my motherboard in the near future (hopefully with some form of local bus), i'll seek a video solution from someone other than lance hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) yes, that is a '%' (percent sign) in my network address. all statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58967">
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 i just received my gateway 2000 486dx/33 mini-desktop system. the first thing i noticed when i plugged in the power cord is the noise that comes from the fan. in fact i can hear the noise in if your gateway is equipped with a western hard drive, then the noise is probably coming from there and not from the fan. the western drives are notoriously noisy. on the other hand, if you don't have a western drive, then maybe it is the fan. there's not alot to do about it except insulate around the cpu somehow. barry aldridge u of i/chicago & 24-hour bar-b-q standard old disclaimer 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58969">
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 according to e_p@unl.edu (edgar pearlstein): here's another one: 5. my computer arrived with the following statement in its config.sys file: stacks = 9,256. i changed it to stacks = 8,128 and saved 1296 bytes. maybe it could be lowered even more, but i haven't tried it. regardless of what microsoft says, i have set stacks=0,0 on every single computer i have installed windows on from a simple 386sx-16 up to 486dx-50 with eisa motherboards, ndi volante tiga adapters, intel ethernet express cards, and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc. not a problem yet, and the extra 2k+ gained means a lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb. john bodnar : "while we liked developing windows the university of texas at austin : applications, we never inhaled." internet: jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : uucp: ....!cs.utexas!ut-ccwf!jbodnar : -- borland ceo philippe kahn i remember reading somewhere (qemm manual, i think) that stack=9,256 is needed only for the windows setup program. otherwise, use stack=0,0. rich> hmmmmmm...i got my comp with windows pre-installed, and stacks is still 9,256. if it was needed only for setup, wouldn't the morons take it off??? (also, i don't have the qemm manual, as verything came with the comp, but not the qemm manual, so could anyone verify this???) pe-|| || michael panayiotakis: louray@seas.gwu.edu ace|| || ...!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!louray |||| \/| "jack straw from wichita, cut his buddy down, \\\\ | dug for him a shallow grave, and lay his body down..." (gd) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58972">
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 |> : most, if not all, credit card companies offer to double the warranty up |> : to one year, namely, if you make a purchase by a credit card, you get |> : additional warranty up to one year. does it apply to the purchase of |> : computers? i wonder if anyone out there has used it. is there any catch? |> : thanks in advance. |> i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase. one |> of the key points was the ability to use my american express card. i |> read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank |> visa. sure, both will allow you double warranty on computers, but citibank |> has a maximum claim of $250.00. could you imagine trying to get your |> monitor or mother board fixed for $250.00? amex has no limit on claims. |> remember, if you use amex, you must either send a copy of the warranty info |> to them in 30 days from purchase, or you must call them to pre-register and |> then send them the paperwork within 90 days of purchase (my pre-register |> pak arrived today). citibank visa requires no pre-registration. |> --ken i just talked to a rep for my at&t mastercard regarding this: there is no maximum claim, and you only have to notify them of the warranty when the item needs repair. if it can't be repaired, you get the amount you paid for it. curiously though, the at&t gold mastercard has a limit of $1000 on claims. definitely not upgrading to that card...:) bryan welch amateur radio: n0sfg internet: europa@vnet.ibm.com (best), bwelch@scf.nmsu.edu everything will perish save love and music.--scots gaelic proverb 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58976">
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 hi netters! i often have troubles with my pc and would like to fix it by myself. is there any book that show you how to fix your own pc (hardware, monitor, printer problems..etc). of course, no book would tell you the exact problem with your pc, but at least it will give a general idea what might be wrong. thanks so lot for your help. 
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 hi netters! i'm looking for books that showing how to fix your own hardware problem. please let me know if you have any books in mind. thanks. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58980">
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 i am selling a usr hst 14.4k baud modem with v42bis compression upgrades. there is no manual, as it was lost going from one side of the u.s. to the other at some point. the modem is setup for max throughput, and it has built in help, but a quick reference guide on the bottom of it, so its use it not difficult by any means. any offers? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58983">
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 ncr stealth 24 vlb viper vlb 64ox480 colors 16,256 16,256,32k,64k,16.7m 16,256,32k,64k,16.7m * [stuff deleted] video ram 1m 1m 1m max ram addressable by vid processor 3m 2m 2m just a note, even though the 805 can address 2 megs of dram, the stealth 24 vlb can only handle 1 meg, unless diamond has a newer design (or some special deal with zeos). stephen lau, elec. engineering, univ. of hawaii *using a friend's account while waiting for my new grad. account* + death to fm synthesis! go gus! + 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58984">
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 does anybody have any info on this monitor or the manufacturers? all help through e-mail please. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58985">
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 ) the documentation says that wordperfect for windows, requires 4 m of ram, but )when i try to install it on my laptop i get a not enough memory error message. )i've unloaded everything that i possibly could but still, not enough memory. )anyone have any ideas as to why this might be happening. are you sure you're not running windows in real mode ? is it windows 3.1 ? do you have a permanent swapfile built ? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58987">
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 i'm thinking of splashing out on a new motherboard for my pc. i am running linux as my main os, with a small dos partition left for my flatmates' games. my current setup is a 386sx-25 (amd) with 387sx-25 (itt - i think) and 9 mbytes of 70ns simms, and (120+100)mbyte ide. basically i have two choices 1) get a 386dx-40 + 387dx-40 or 2) get some sort of 486. unfortunately i live in the uk where computer prices are far too high. the first option works out at about \pounds 200. 486 m/boards start at this price for a sx-25. i have a couple of questions. 1) how much of an improvement in speed should i notice if i get a 386dx+copro. remember i'm using a 32 bit os, and alot of floating point 2) how much faster would a 486dx-33 be than the 386dx-40+copro ? should i get an upgradeable m/board with a 386dx-40 and wait for amd/pentium price pressure to reduce the costs of the 486 ? any experiences will be most helpful ... ps. example prices: 386dx-40+copro m/board ~$270 486dx33 m/board ~$580 kenneth macdonald e-mail kenny@castle.ed.ac.uk dept. of geology & geophysics university of edinburgh scotland 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58988">
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 i've got a multi i/o card (ide controller + serial/parallel interface) and two floppy drives (5 1/4, 3 1/2) and a quantum prodrive 80at connected to it. i was able to format the hard disk, but i could not boot from it. i can boot from drive a: (which disk drive does not matter) but if i remove the disk from drive a and press the reset switch, the led of drive a: continues to glow, and the hard disk is not accessed at all. i guess this must be a problem of either the multi i/o card or floppy disk drive settings (jumper configuration?) does someone have any hint what could be the reason for it. please reply by email to gerthd@mvs.sas.com | thomas dachsel | | internet: gerthd@mvs.sas.com | | fidonet: thomas_dachsel@camel.fido.de (2:247/40) | | subnet: dachsel@rnivh.rni.sub.org (uucp in germany, now active) | | phone: +49 6221 4150 (work), +49 6203 12274 (home) | | fax: +49 6221 415101 | | snail: sas institute gmbh, p.o.box 105307, d-w-6900 heidelberg | | tagline: one bad sector can ruin a whole day... | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58990">
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 i'm looking for a better method to back up files. currently using a maynstream 250q that uses dc 6250 tapes. i will need to have a capacity of 600 mb to 1gb for future backups. only dos files. i would be very appreciative of information about backup devices or manufacturers of these products. flopticals, dat, tape, anything. if possible, please include price, backup speed, manufacturer (phone #?), and opinions about the quality/reliability. please e-mail, i'll send summaries to those interested. thanx in advance, -claus schwinge -sunyab student finances and records 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58992">
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 ....there are people who are performance driven enough to do it. if it weren't so people wouldn't buy pentium(tm) systems in the first place since they could buy a 486dx3/99 that would run their existing applications faster. certainly a 486dx3/99 is in the same "league" as a pentium(tm). is the 486dx3/99 anything more than a myth? i haven't heard of it from any source that i trust, and i sure don't see any ads for dx3/99 machines in computer shopper. intel is pretty busy with the pentium right now; i can't seem them introducing their own competition. ibm has displayed a 486dx3/99 as a *technology demo*. this effectivly means - "here's some neat technology". it is not a commitment to make such an item... keith mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> n5wvr <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> "black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, when your back's against the wall...." -leslie fish guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware58998">
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 i saw a posting about the choice between 80486dx-50 and a 80486dx2-50. i was wondering: although a dx-50 is faster because of the path to it's external cache, shouldn't the choice be the dx2-50 as that one can be made to work properly with a local-bus? i mean, cache speed is one thing, but all your speed will be blocked during video i/o, so just get that faster... i'm willing to speculate that the dx2-50 with local-bus will be 2-4 times as fast as the dx-50 and probably as expensive (or cheap ;-)! technically there is no reason why a chip set cannot support a 486dx50 and a 25mhz local bus. i'm waiting for the mezzianine (sp?) vl bus that will be decoupled from the main cpu clock and allow for many more slots due to the user of buffers. this will allow the use of ever faster cpus with the same standard i/o cards. until the next buss spec... regards, jv name: j-v meuldijk [ o o ] address: gildelaar 4 \_=_/ 4847 hw teteringen _| |_ holland e-mail: volkert@kub.nl / \_/ \ guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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 has anyone here dealt with tangent? i'm looking at an 486 system they have that has an eisa backplane with a vesa slot for video. the scsi contoller they use is made by aorta. i've never heard of this brand. can anyone comment on tangent or the controller? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware59000">
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 |> : b |> : bk>is it possible to plug in 70ns or 60ns simms into a motherboard saying |> : bk>wants 80ns simms? |> : you shouldn't have troubles. i have heard of machines having problems |> : with slower than recommended memory speeds, but never faster. |> it should run without any trouble of course but why do you want to buy some |> 60ns and mixed them with 80ns? 60ns is more expensive than 80ns and |> furthermore your machine will run the slowest simms clock speed eventhough |> you have 60ns. just my 0.02cents thought.... your machine will run at whatever the bus is jumpered to/cmos is set to (usually wait states) regardless of what speed ram is installed. no motherboard can sense the speed of the ram installed, unless you call failing as a sort of auto-sense. this is how you can sometimes use "slower" ram in a machine. you either set the number of wait states to accomodate the slow ram (in which case, all memory will run at that slower rate) or you reduce the wait states and take the chance that the slower ram will act like faster ram and you won't crash. putting faster ram in won't speed things up unless you tell the machine it has faster ram. mixing fast and slow ram will not help you if you have to keep the bus slowed down to accomodate slow ram. mailer address is buggy! reply to: jiml@strauss.ftcollinsco.ncr.com james lewczyk 1-303-223-5100 x9267 ncr-mpd fort collins, co jim.lewczyk@ftcollinsco.ncr.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware59002">
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 i am going through a box of old ibm card and came across one called a rapid technology squeeze card. it is dated 1990 and has a 54mhz crystal on it and a big chip that has 'c-cube' on it. no connectors to the outside, but a ribbon-type 50-pin connector on the board. it is a 16-bit board. any ideas what it is? phil hunt "wherever you go, there you are!" howtek, inc. internet: phil@howtek.mv.com uucp: {decvax|harvard}!mv!howtek!phil 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware59003">
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 :because of some contract, ibm is not allowed to sell its :486 chips to third parties, so these chips are unlikely to become :available in any non-ibm machines. i saw in this months pc or pc world an ad for computers using ibm's 486slc. so i don't think ibm is restricted in selling their chips, at least not anymore. a clock-tripled 486, even without coprocessor would be great, especially with 16k on-board cache. make it 386 pin-compatible, and you have the chip upgrade that dreams are made of :-) taka mizutani takaharu@mail.sas.upenn.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware59004">
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 first of all, thanks to those of you who responded, both here and via e-mail. the tips didn't pan out, but it was good hearing from you. now, following up to my earlier post: : disk controller: acculogic side-3 2 hard/2 floppy ide controller : jumpers: all defaulted (shown as *): : normal irq*/delayed irq primary*/secondary floppy address : single*/dual speed floppy primary*/secondary ide address : precomp = 125ns*/187 ns iochrdy not driven*/ide drive controls iochrdy : other cards: (didn't check brand) 2 serial/1 parallel adapter : logitech bus mouse adapter : roland mpu-401-compatible midi interface : configured with default irq 2, mem address 0330 i opened up the box and removed all the "other cards" above. no help there. then, not having anything better to try, i changed normal irq to delayed irq on the disk controller (didn't make any difference) and iochrdy_not_ driven to ide_drive_controls_iochrdy (also had no effect). so i put everything back to the way it was and re-installed the cards. i then unplugged the floppy drive cable from the disk controller. voila!, the pc booted from power up, although it seemed to take several seconds before the first access to the hard disk. plug the floppy cable back to the controller and the original (non-boot) behavior returns. o.k., with this additional information, does anyone in netland have any words of wisdom for what's going on and how i should deal with it? -larry "still (un)plugging away" byler- 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60133">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60133" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i'm posting this for a friend that runs a bbs. i'm not sure if its under dos or windows. he is interested in a board that has 16 ports on it. in another post, someone suggeted a digiboard, but didn't have too much info on it. could someone give me information on any boards that they know of with the before mentioned configuration. models. specifications. prices. robert walker walker@cs.umn.edu computer science dept. university of minnesota 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60136">
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 to following up my own note: : : it looks like everything works as advertised but i am disappointed : : with the speed. i'm using an intel 400 internal 14.4k modem in the pc : : with telebit 14.4k on the unix end, which are currently limited to : : 19.2kbits by the unix com link. to get a quantitative comparison, i : : did 'cat file' where "file" is 20 kbyte uncompressed ascii text, and : : it took 75 seconds to scroll through an x window over the modem link, : : 270 chars/sec. using the identical hardware and procomm+fw the same : : "cat file' takes 11 seconds, 1820 chars/sec. btw, i use ncd pc xview : : on my pc at work (hp) every day for the same unix access from a pc over : : a lan and like that just fine. the same 'cat file' scrolls by in : : ~2 seconds on the lan connection. i just tried a few experiments. i cat'd a 20261-byte file (471 lines) under various scenarios: pc-xview for dos in a full-screen os/2 window (1024x768x16): 18 sec telix (dos) in an os/2 window (1024xs768x256): 107 sec! telix (dos) is a full-screen os/2 window (standard vga): 11 sec telix (dos) in a windows 3.1 window (1024x768x256): 30 sec uw/win in a seamless os/2 window (1024x768x256): gave up after 4 min! uw/win in windows 3.1 (1024x768x256): faster, but gave up after 2 min uw/win in a seamless os/2 window using pg 30 sec, could have been a little faster (i had to keep hitting the space bar) i was using an ati wonder xl video card, by the way. so pc-xview for dos looks pretty good (and the line-by-line scrolling in os/2 desktop looks pathetic, although full-page redraws are pretty good). i tried it under pc-xview using my normal (9x15bold or 10x20) font, and with a very small font, and there was no difference in the times. the modem receive light was on pretty solidly, so it looks like the bottleneck was the 9600-baud modem, not the screen drawing. ted richards ted@isgtec.com [...!uunet.ca!isgtec!ted] isg technologies inc. 6509 airport rd., mississauga ont. canada l4v 1s7 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60137">
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 i have a 486sx25 isa machine with pheonix bios. currently i have 8 megabytes of ram installed via eight 1 mg simms on the motherboard: ie. both banks are full, and there is no space for more simms. i am thinking of running os2 on my machine and possibly linux with x windows, and i know that more ram would be helpful. however with simms, the only solution i can see is to sell my 8 megs for about $180, and by 4 4mg simms for about $400 used. apart from the fact that i can't afford the price right now, the entire process of selling ram and buying it used probably means that the machine might be down for a number of days which i would rather avoid... so my question is, do the at ram boards that plug into a free slot work well with a 486 isa machine. i have seen some being sold used for about $90 with 4 mg with space for another 4mg's. if these boards do work, how do they do it? is a device driver needed, or will the bios pickup the extra ram as it does with the simms on the mother board? i know that the isa expansions slots are 16-bits and 486 simm memory is 32 bits, so probably all of this is just wishful thinking... however any help is truly ebosco@us.oracle.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60140">
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 hi fellow netters, i have a question for you... i am gonna buy a 486dx2-66 mhz with vesa local-bus. is the speed benefit that great ? would it be wise to spend on a local-bus system (hd controller and graphic card) for normal use ( i mean i won't use it for a server !!) ? also, i read an article from someone ( sorry, i can't remember your name ) and he said that even though you have a local-bus hard-disk controller, your performances won't be that much greater because of the disk's throughtput !!! so what is the use of having a fast bus if the peripherals can't cope with it ??? something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for! v for video - the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster. this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory. since there are usually 3 vlb slots card makers have been making cards to fit in the other two. how about an vlb ethernet card? move the data into the card at 130 odd mb/s and then wait for it to tickle onto the net at just over 1mb/s. [ do do however free the local bus for other cards ] some times you need fast busses and sometimes you don't! thank you ... gregof@jsp.umontreal.ca guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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 this doesn't answer the original question. is os/2 a multi-user os? and no mention was made of an ether card either. but from a disk/data point of view, why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi- tasking? data is data, and it could be anywhere on the drive. can scsi find it faster? can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster? does it have a better cache system? i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached. if we are only talking about a single drive, explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive. you are making the same mistake i did: you are confusing the drive interface to the data throughput interface. again from my mac & ibm info sheet {available by ftp on sumex-aim.stanford.edu (36.44.0.6) in the info-mac/report as mac-ibm-compare173.txt}: both mac & ibm scsi: only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm. allows the use of any device: hard drive, printer, scanner, nubus card expansion {mac plus only}, some monitors, and cd-rom. apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers while ibm has no exact controller specifications {which results in added incompatibilities on ibm machines}. main problem: there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port {a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and at the end. any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm}. scsi-1: 7 devices per scsi controller. 8-bit asynchronous {~1.5mb/s ave} and synchronous {5mb/s max} transfer base. 16-bit scsi-1 requires a scsi-2 controler chip and can provide only fast scsi-2 not wide scsi-2 which are both 16-bit interfaces {see scsi-2}. scsi-2: 10 devices per scsi controller in scsi-2 mode. scsi-2 is fully scsi-1 complient and tends to be implimented as a very fast scsi-1 since it needs a different controller interface in both hardware {which tends to be very expendsive} and software. transfer speeds are 4-6mb/s with 10mb/s burst {8-bit}, 8-12mb/s with 20mb/s burst {16-bit}, and 15-20mb/s with 40mb/s burst {32-bit/wide and fast}. scsi-2 in scsi-1 mode is limited to 7 devices and reduced 8-bit or 16-bit {fast only} throughput due to the difference between scsi-1 and wide scsi-2 ports. hd interfaces {limited to hard drives by design or lack of development}: ide: integrated device electronics currently the most common standard, and is mainly used for medium sized drives. can have more than one hard drive. asynchronous transfer: ~5mb/s max. so at its lowest setting scsi-2 interface in asynchronous scsi-1 mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode. in full scsi-2 mode it blows poor ide out the window, down the street, and into the garbage can. the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi-2 comes from. not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi-2 through put. the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy: few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc, which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi {which would reduce its cost} is unwarented, and so scsi is expencive. {that is the effect of the rule of scale: the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost} scsi-2 allows a drive mechanisims through put to be limited by the drive while ide itself limits the through put. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60145">
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 the last time i was in microprocessor lab was in 1980, using z-80. so i don't know a lot of buzz terms in pc hardware. now i need to purchase a 486, help me to ask the right questions. motherboard: i need 486-33 with 8 mb ram, with additonal slot for 8 more mb. i would like to get two vesa local bus. one for video, not sure what am i going to do with the other. it must be able to run unix. what are other questions that i should ask to ensure getting a quality stuff? what are other important features ? monitor: i want a 14" non interlaced svga, but not sure about what brand to get. i can't afford nec or sony. what brands should i consider? acer? touch? what else should i ask? video card: i would like to run framemaker. so i need a fast video card. is western digital worth the $20 over cirrus logic? do i need more than 1m of v-ram? one company wanted $50 more for a local bus video card. is this normal? hard drive: segate, western digital, conner all have the same price. which one is more liable? which one has better performace? case/power supply: given the choise of desktop and minitower, which one is better? what is the adequate power supply? is cooling a general problem or a non-issue? what features should i ask for? did i miss anything? i am sure that there are a lot of semi-pc-literates reading this group. your help is greatly appreciated. jason chen 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60148">
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 a hard drive with xt-type controller can be added, but i recommend not trying a full -height 5 1/4" hard drive, as i have run into trouble with the 63.5w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters. one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a 63 watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc, you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed, but it manages. when booting is finished, plug in your floppy drive, now it will work. (ok i know this is not very user friendly, maybe you are better off buying a 486-66 with 300 watt power supply or something like that) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60149">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60149" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am looking for a way to access the floppy drive at the i/o level, that is, lower than the bios. given the port assignments, what controller chip/spec sheet do i need info on? my floppy is a 1.44m, and i would also like to be able to write code that works on 360k disks as well. also, with the method of access, is it possible to actually read the individual bytes on the track as they stream into the controller? i'm afraid the sector handling is done purely through hardware. if on the off chance i can get this basic on the access, anything to point me in the right direction would help a lot. there is a file out there (look for it with archie) that is called 'theref22.zip' which has lots of info on various pc things, amongst which is also a detailed description of all floppy controller commands, i think hard drive controller commands are not there. it is possible to read an entire track including all gaps, sector headers etc. by setting sector size to something very large (like 8k). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60150">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60150" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have an original ibm pc (not an xt or at) that has never had a hard drive. questions: [1] do i need new bios to add a hard drive? [2] does anyone sell a complete package to do this? please e-mail me with suggestions. i only need to add about a 20meg or 40meg hard drive. sent by mail too. you need the 10/82 bios which has support for rom bios extensions, such as the rom on a hard disk controller. a 20 mb hard card, available for not much over $100, will do the trick if you have the proper bios date. use norton si or similar program to find out. you also need to set the correct switch settings on your xt controller, which can be a pain, since most pc's don't come with proper docs for all hardware contained inside it. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60151">
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 i was recently loaned an older dec 210 286 at work, and i have the option of adding an additional western digital hard-drive to the machine. the existing drive is currently a western digital as well, and is working fine, but i do not have any documentation available for configuring the master/slave relationship necessary for a c: d: drive setup. the first drive is currently formatted to tandy dos v3.3 but i am eventually going to upgrade both to ms dos v 5.0 the drives themselves are both model number wd95044-a circa 5-07-1991 they are 782 cyl 4 head drives. a note to add is that there is no exact configuration for these in my current bios, but it seems to work at a setting 17 (977 cyl 5 head, 300 write_pre, 977 landing zone). there are three pairs of jumper pins on the back that i presume are for setting up the master/slave. originally, the drive in the machine had none. currently, i was suggested to try the far right (looking at the back) for master and the middle jumper for the slave. when booted, the reinitialize seems to puke accessing the d: drive. it does flicker about three times on the second drive, but then gives the error. hopefully the problem is as simple as the drive not being formatted, but not being a person who has ever had to actual format and unformatted drive, i would not even know how to do that. any and all help on this is great fully appreciated. if not, a number for western digital might just do as good! hunting over in michigan? don't despair - no closed season on: opossum, porcupine, weasel, red squirrel, skunk, starlings, feral pigeons, english sparrows, ground squirrel & woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60155">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60155" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 great! but don't let your effort and talent be un-noticed. put the program on the net, upload it to some anonymous ftp sites. so people (at least me) can have it and appreciate it. please put it into ftp.novell.de (193.97.1.1) pub/incoming/pc ok, the small programme that can be used to switch a suncd drive into 2048 bytes/block mode for use with msdos/adaptec/apsi it now available by 'ftp' from ftp.novell.de (193.97.1.1) pub/pc/adaptec/cdblksize.zip juergen keil jk@tools.de ...!{uunet,mcsun}!unido!tools!jk 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60156">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60156" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i never thought i'd contribute to a gateway thread, either pro or con, but my spleen could use a little venting. the scenario: 1 - ordered a dx2/50 w/ ultrastor 34f local bus hd controller 2 - receive system 10 days after ordering (happy) 3 - discover ultrastor 14f isa hd controller inside (unhappy) 4 - call gateway, receive the correct controller in 5 days (getting happier) 5 - new controller doesn't work (unhappy again) 6 - call gateway again, get another controller in 5 more days (cooling off, the end is in sight) 7 - this controller doesn't work either, motherboard is bad (very unhappy) gateway's solution: they will order me a new motherboard (5 more days) and have on-site service install it for me. but, i have to take a day off of work because the service people only work 9-5 m-f. i say, no way i've already blown about 20 hours with this, about 10 of them on hold and i don't have the time or $$ to take a day off work. also, my 30 day return period is almost over and i've only been able to use the thin for about 10 minutes. so, the whole thing is going back. i was extremely upset when i began this post because the support rep told me that i would have to pay shipping not only for the returned system, but also the two hard drive controllers they had sent me. fortunately, i just spoke to customer service and they are going to have ups come and pick everything up gratis. the only downside is that now i have to order another computer. i would really like to try gateway again, i'm just very turned off by the prospect of having to try and get through to customer service or tech support again... i think their products are great for the most part, but i'm beginning to wonder if the savings are worth the potential aggravation. are other mail order companies as difficult to contact? i know gateway is booming, and for good reason, but i don't know if i can take it again. oh well, i feel better now... -----_____-----_____-----_____-----_____-----_____-----_____-----_____----- | mark devaney - hear me now and believe me later | | georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 | | internet: markd@cc.gatech.edu | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60159">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60159" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 : the upgrade to a nanao 550i is now $765. : (this monitor will handle 1280x1024 at a vertical refresh : of 72-76hz). not according to nanao. the 550i will not do better than 60hz at 1280x1024. btw, gateway told me the same thing. phil spiro spiro@netcom.com 415-964-6647 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60162">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60162" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 can someone tell me the maximum horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the nec 5fgx.(not the 5fge) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60163">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60163" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 we have a gateway 486dx50 with a smc elite16 series ethercard plus. when we use ncsa ftp to send from the gateway with hash turned on, we see 4 hash marks immediately. then the computer r e a l l y drags. if we turn off the internal cache of the 486, the speed is better, but doesn't match the speed when we receive to the gateway. it doesn't matter if we send from the gateway or get to it: 4 hash marks and then extreme slowness if the cache is not disabled. does anyone know any more about this? is there a fix? the gateway was purchased in june, 1992. please respond directly. you wouldn't believe how slow the news is on this 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60167">
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 which they do in the vast majority of cases. remember that it's only the people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write -- the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it. you don't hear from the folks in the middle very often... they have rough edges, no doubt about it; but they give good value per dollar, and use almost all top-quality components. i am one of those middle-of-the-road gw2000 owners who is satisfied with my system. i had my share of problems/corrections/phone conversations/etc. i'm satisfied on what i got for my money. stephen r. husak "what am i trying to do, what am i trying to say, i'm not trying to tell you anything you didn't know when you woke up today..." - depeche mode "nothing" music for the masses -= stephen r. husak - husak@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu - univerisity of illinois 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60168">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60168" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a 286 with an m205 motherboard. the last byte memory manager (which i downloaded for a trial) reports the chipset is an addtech pcchip1 chipset, and it is able to activate the ram behind segments a000-ffff, which can then be used for umbs (except for video/bios). i would like to write my own driver to activate the memory. does anyone know where i can get programming information on this chip? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60171">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60171" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have definitly seen a mother board with 2 local bus slots which claimed to be able to support any cpu, including the dx2/66 and dx50. can someone throw some more informed light on this issue? michael hamilton some motherboards support vl bus and 50-dx cpu. there is an option (bios i think) where additional wait(s) can be added with regard to cpu/vl bus transactions. this slows the cpu down to a rate that gives the vl bus device(s) time to 'do their thing'. these particular wait(s) are applied when the cpu transacts with vl bus device(s). you want to enable these wait(s) only if you are using a 50-dx with vl bus devices. this is from reading my motherboard manual, and these are my interpre- tations. your mileage may vary. strictly speaking, vl and 50mhz are not compatable. and, there is at least one 'fudge' mechanism to physically allow it to work. gary korenek (korenek@ferranti.com) network management technology incorporated (formerly ferranti international controls corp.) sugar land, texas (713)274-5357 
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 * attention voters: * i had a problem with my mailbox on the first day of voting. * please check the vote acknowlegement (ack) at the end of this cfv. * if your name/address is not there, please send your vote again. * (actually, check even if you voted after the first day) introduction: this is the third (and final) call for votes (cfv) for the creation of four os/2 newsgroups and the renaming of one: (a) create comp.os.os2.programmer.porting (unmoderated) (b) renaming of comp.os.os2.programmer to comp.os.os2.programmer.misc (unmoderated) (c) comp.os.os2.setup (unmoderated) (d) comp.os.os2.multimedia (unmoderated) (e) comp.os.os2.bugs (unmoderated) this is the second attempt at creating comp.os.os2.programmer.porting and comp.os.os2.setup, and renaming comp.os.os2.programmer to comp.os.os2.programmer.misc. the first attempt failed in the summer of 1992 (the voting deadline was august 31, 1992). the voting rules state that another attempt for creating newsgroups can be started after a six month waiting period (in this case, it is march 1, 1993). this is the first attempt at creating comp.os.os2.multimedia and comp.os.os2.bugs. this document contains: * the background showing the need for these proposals * the proposed charters for these proposals * voting instructions * a voting ballot * some example ballots * the voting rules * the voting schedule * the mass acknowledgement background: the creation of two, free, 32-bit compilers for os/2 2.x (gcc/2 and emx/gcc; read comp.os.os2.programmer for details) has spurred a continuing deluge of software ported from unix platforms, such as emacs, less, awk, grep, sed, xscheme, ispell, flex, yacc, and much more. borland has released its c/c++ compiler for os/2 2.x, allowing for easier porting of dos and windows software. much of the pc hardware and drivers were written for dos, and later, windows. as more people are discovering os/2 2.x, the number of people asking questions about os/2's compatibility with their hardware increases, as does the questions on the availability of drivers for their hardware, installation procedures, etc. multimedia is becoming popular. os/2 2.0 supports windows multimedia extensions using win-os/2 3.0. furthermore, ibm is including direct multimedia support in os/2 starting with version 2.1 (in addition to using win-os/2 3.1). any non-trivial software will have bugs -- os/2 is not exempt, especially since ibm is constantly adding new features to os/2. so far, ibm has issued system patches and corrective service disks (e.g. the service pak) for free (free from bbss and ftp sites, or for free plus a small media charge for diskettes -- read comp.os.os2.misc for details). proposed charters: (a) create comp.os.os2.programmer.porting (unmoderated) it will provide a forum for developers of ported software so as to coordinate efforts, avoid duplication of effort, and spur additional development. the group will also cover topics such as porting from other platforms (such as dos, windows, unix, etc), toolkits which aid in program portability (including porting tools such as mirrors), and so forth. (b) rename: comp.os.os2.programmer.misc (unmoderated) to keep the structure of the os/2 newsgroup heirarchy orthogonal, comp.os.os2.programmer should be renamed to comp.os.os2.programmer.misc. comp.os.os2.programmer.misc will still be the newsgroup for os/2 programmers to discuss programming issues and technical aspects of os/2 in an unmoderated setting. (c) create comp.os.os2.setup (unmoderated) it will be devoted to os/2 system setup topics, including the availability of device drivers, compatibility information, installation procedures, system requirements, and overall performance optimization. (d) create comp.os.os2.multimedia (unmoderated) it will provide a forum for discussion of multi-media issues. (e) create comp.os.os2.bugs (unmoderated) it will provide a forum for os/2 system bug reports, bug diagnosis and work arounds, the availability of system patches and corrective service disks, and so forth. [note that discussion of bugs in applications belong in other newsgroups, and discussion of bugs in os/2 betas belong in comp.os.os2.beta] how to vote: to cast your vote, fill out the ballot below and e-mail it to me. many newsreaders will allow e-mail to be sent by replying to this post. be sure to send only the ballot, and edit out the rest of this post. 1) type in your vote for each proposal: if you favor the charter as proposed, put a "yes" after its name. if you oppose the charter as proposed, put a "no" after its name. to abstain, leave a blank after its name. 2) type in your last name (i.e. your family name), a comma, and your first name (i.e. your personal name). 3) cut out the ballot, please do not delete any lines of the 4) e-mail your ballot to mlevis@lonestar.utsa.edu before 11:59:59 pm (central time), april 24, 1993. ballot: ----------------cut here----------------cut here----------------cut here---- (a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting: (b) comp.os.os2.programmer.misc: (c) comp.os.os2.setup: (d) comp.os.os2.multimedia: (e) comp.os.os2.bugs: (f) voter's last, first name: e-mail ballot to mlevis@lonestar.utsa.edu by april 24 ----cut here----------------cut here----------------cut here---------------- example ballot #1: (a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting: yes (b) comp.os.os2.programmer.misc: yes (c) comp.os.os2.setup: no (d) comp.os.os2.multimedia: (e) comp.os.os2.bugs: no (f) voter's last, first name: smith, john in this example, john smith favors comp.os.os2.programmer.porting to be created, and comp.os.os2.programmer to be renamed to comp.os.os2.programmer.misc. he also opposes the creation of comp.os.os2.setup and comp.os.os2.bugs. he does not have a view on the creation of comp.os.os2.multimedia. example ballot #2: (a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting: yes (b) comp.os.os2.programmer.misc: yes (c) comp.os.os2.setup: yes (d) comp.os.os2.multimedia: yes (e) comp.os.os2.bugs: yes (f) voter's last, first name: doe, jane in this example, jane doe favors the creation or rename of all the proposals. voting rules: * one vote per person. if you vote more than once, only the most recent vote will be counted. * votes must be mailed to me by the person voting. proxy voting, forwarding, posting votes to a newsgroup, etc. will not be counted. * do not ask how the votes are going. the status of the votings will be revealed only after the poll closes. * i will acknowledge votes by mass acknowledgement (ack). i will post the ack twice (see schedule below). * if you need help for using your editor, using e-mail, how voting works in general, etc. then ask an expert at your site. also see the ``how to create a new newsgroup'' article which is posted to news.answers on a regular basis. * if you need any clarifications on voting procedures for this cfv, send me e-mail at mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu. * when the voting period is over (see schedule below), a proposal passes if both of the following formulas are true: 1) the number of yes votes exceeds the number of no votes by at least 100 (i.e. yes >= no + 100, or yes - no >= 100). 2) the number of yes votes exceeds at least twice the number of no votes (i.e. yes >= 2 * no, or yes - no >= no). in other words, a proposal passes if: yes - no >= max (100, no) where max() returns the highest number given to it. schedule: the voting period started on march 29 when the first cfv was posted by david lawrence (the news.announce.newgroups moderator). this third cfv is a repeat of the first cfv, but it also has the mass acknowledgement (ack) of names and e-mail addresses of those who have already voted -- re-send your vote if it is not there. if you have not voted yet, vote now! the voting period will end at 11:59:59 pm (central time), on april 24, 1993. votes received after that time will not count. the voting results and tally will be posted shortly after that mass acknowledgement: here is the list of people who have already sent in their ballots as of 12:01 am (central time) on april 15, 1993: bdubbs@cs.tamu.edu aiyagari, sanjay ska1@crux3.cit.cornell.edu alcorn, justin alcorn@alpha.ces.cwru.edu arien, peter laaaa43%blekul11.bitnet@frmop11.cnusc.fr asselin, andre assela@rpi.edu aurand, tom tom@longs.lance.colostate.edu baechler, cedric cbaechle@iiic.ethz.ch bartlett, warren bart@pdn.paradyne.com bates, john johnb@up.edu beadles, j. jeff@neon.rain.com beal, kenneth kbeal@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com bedersdorfer, jochen beders@dfki.uni-sb.de bell, douglas dab6@scl.cwru.edu benningfield, robert concert.net!aurs01!aurw7a!benningf biegel, bryan biegel@tigris.stanford.edu blackman, ed ebb7683@venus.tamu.edu bodnar, john jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu boisvert, wesley wesb@dermit.isis.org boneham, kevin boneham@suntan.eng.usf.edu boresch, stefan boresch@tammy.harvard.edu boschma, wilfried v911071@si.hhs.nl botha, david both-dd@mella.ee.up.ac.za bowe, nathaniel woody@vnet.ibm.com bowers, neil neilb@borris.eece.unm.edu braun,david roland@roll.choate.edu bronner, geoffrey geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu brors, dieter db@ix.de brown, bill brown@chinchilla.ir.ucf.edu cambria, michael cambria@smaug.enet.dec.com carlson, bill woc8r@poplar.cs.virginia.edu champion, evan evanc@carbon.isis.org chandonia, john chandoni@husc.harvard.edu chen, ted tedc@cs.ubc.ca chua, hak c164-ez@po.berkeley.edu ciesielski, boleslaw bolek@viewlogic.com clement, bruce frey@alfheim.actrix.gen.nz clemente, marc f. mfclemente@ucdavis.edu cline, ernest cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu cocking , simon simonc@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au compton, curtis compton@plains.nodak.edu costello, robert rcc9885@ultb.isc.rit.edu coulman, randy coulman@skdad.usask.ca cox, anthony aecox@waikato.ac.nz cox, robert rcox@qvack.ee.mcgill.ca culliton, tom culliton@srg.af.mil daigle, joe daigle@apollo.hp.com decarlo, john jdecarlo@mitre.org dippold, ron rdippold@qualcomm.com donaldson, ian icd@ecr.mu.oz.au drye, stephen scdrye@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca duffy, patrick duffy@theory.chem.ubc.ca dusitsin, krid dusitsin@ee.umr.edu erzberger, martin erzberg@ifi.unizh.ch feldtmann, marten marten@feki.toppoint.de feustel, edward efeustel@ida.org filippini,luigi luigi@berlioz.crs4.it fischer, stefan fischer@tammy.harvard.edu fleuren, rik rik@sci.kun.nl francis, tim francis@vnet.ibm.com francois menard menaf00@dmi.usherb.ca franks, derek franks@hercules.cs.uregina.ca franzki, wolfgang wfranzki@hlrserv.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de friedrich, jochen jofried@fzi.de friis, torben tfriis@imada.ou.dk g"unther, stefan stefan@med-informatik.uni-hildesheim.de galarza, edward lenbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu gammon, robert rgammon@rgam.sc.ti.com gartler, hermann herm@owlnet.rice.edu garzik, jeff gtd543a@prism.gatech.edu gershman, mark gershman@bach.udel.edu giller, david r. rafetmad@cheshire.oxy.edu gnassi, john jgnassi@hstbme.mit.edu goyal, mohit goyal@utdallas.edu green, anthony green@roboco.uucp grupenhoff, mike kashmir@wam.umd.edu guo, youren yguo@sparc0a.cs.uiuc.edu hacker;jonathan hacker@cco.caltech.edu haggerty, michael mrhagger@athena.mit.edu hargrave, bj fattire@vnet.ibm.com hartman, shane shane@spr.com hartzman, les hartzman@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov hassa, george hassag@rpi.edu hed, nevo nyh@wpi.wpi.edu heederik, robbert heederik@fwi.uva.nl hellerhoff, torsten torsten_hellerhoff@ac2.maus.de hendel, bernd bhendel@estec.estec.esa.nl henriksen, gerald rn.1035@rose.com henry, andrew a.h.henry@gdr.bath.ac.uk herbison, b.j. herbison@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com herron, kenneth kherron@ms.uky.edu hilmer, andrew hilmera@mist.cs.orst.edu hoang, long lhoang@orion.oac.uci.edu hodge, bob hodge@iccgcc.cs.hh.ab.com hodges, matthew modester@iastate.edu hollebone, bruce lermer@theory.chem.ubc.ca holsman, ian iholsman@cmutual.com.au hopkins, john john@uhs1.uhs.uga.edu hoppenbrouwers, jeroen hoppie@kub.nl howard, robert robert.howard@matd.gatech.edu huang, ping pshuang@athena.mit.edu jackson, dave d.jackson@axion.bt.co.uk jensen, colin ljensen@netcom.com kassarjian, steven kassarji@spot.colorado.edu kiehl, horst kiehl@ibt013.ibt.kfa-juelich.de kitchin, bruce kitchin@lf.hp.com kone, bob bkone@rflab.ee.ubc.ca kovarski, mark kovarski@zooid.guild.org kretzer, myke tanith@csd4.csd.uwm.edu lacy, stephen sl31+@andrew.cmu.edu lai, william lai@seas.gwu.edu landy, brian landy@cco.caltech.edu lau, frankie lau@tammy.harvard.edu lau, stephen lau@ai.sri.com lawton, gef glawton@cs.uah.edu le glasse, franck franck.leglasse@irisa.fr lebius, henning lebius@utkux1.utk.edu lee, james jelee@ucdavis.edu lehtonen, jari jarlehto@utu.fi leitner, thomas tom@finwds01.tu-graz.ac.at lempriere, mike mikel@networx.com lentin, kevin kevinl@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au leung, johnnie k7z092@rick.cs.ubc.ca lim, pean plim@claircom.com lin, steven slin@cisco.com lindholm, george lindholm@ucs.ubc.ca liukkonen, juha jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi logan, stan logan@lexmark.com lu, kevin kevinlu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au martin, johannes jmartin@mogli.zdv.uni-mainz.de mashao, daniel djm@lems.brown.edu maturo, larry larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu maxwell, scott scott.maxwell@channel1.com mayer, gunther h. gmayer@physik.uni-kl.de maynard, jay jmaynard@nyx.cs.du.edu mccarthy, christopher mccarthy@gollum.ttd.teradyne.com mcgehrin, matthew matthew@dabeef@des.edu mcging, john jmcging@access.digex.com mcguire, ed emcguire@intellection.com mcmillan, andrew andrew.mcmillan@folly.welly.gen.nz meyer, jeff moriarty@tc.fluke.com miller, richard rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu mittelstaedt, olaf h.-p. mittelst@felix.rz.fh-ulm.de moorcroft, marc smarry@zooid.guild.org morrison, john paul jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca mosher, david dmosher@nyx.cs.du.edu mouawad, naji. nmouawad@math.uwaterloo.ca mullins, don mullins@magnum.convex.com nadler, cliff cnadler@vnet.ibm.com nareid, helge helge.nareid@due.unit.no narinian, vartan v.narinian@ic.ac.uk norton, charles m. cmn@ftp.com o'neel, bruce oneel@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu o'rourke, sean sorourke@lonestar.utsa.edu oldham, c. r. cro@socrates.ed.asu.edu olson, eric ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu oussoren, ronald roussor@cs.vu.nl owens, bill owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu parks, dwayne dcp@engr.uark.edu parry, tom parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au pebly, bob pebly@vnet.ibm.com perdue, alicia arperd00@mik.uky.edu petro, herbert hmpetro@mosaic.uncc.edu pietilainen, pekka ppi@eero.oulu.fi poole, david dpoole@hydrogen.oscs.montana.edu powell, stephen stevep@kralizec.zeta.org.au prescod, paul papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca provensal, jerome uunet.uu.net!iac!jerome quinn, michael quinn@phoenix.princeton.edu rao, venkat rao@cactus.org reisert, jim reisert@mast.enet.dec.com reynolds, robert easyrob@cs.utexas.edu robertson, james robertson@physc3.byu.edu roelofs, greg roe2@midway.uchicago.edu rosenvold, johan kristian jkr@ifi.uio.no ruppel, markus m.ruppel@imperial.ac.uk ryan, sean fsspr@acad3.alaska.edu salomon, larry os2man@panix.com schimke, nathan schimken@cs.rpi.edu schipper, haijo haijo@cs.rug.nl seymour, jim qintar@agora.rain.com shankar, gess gess@knex.via.mind.org shaw, jeremy jeremy@plxsun.plx.com sierwald, joern sierwald@tu-harburg.dbp.de sipples, timothy sip1@midway.uchicago.edu skogstad, oddbjorn odskog@siri.unit.no smith, donald djs6015@ultb.isc.rit.edu smith, eliot esmith@psych.purdue.edu sneath, tim psyhtjs@mips.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk sorensen, tom gt0040a@prism.gatech.edu sriram, n swknasri@nuscc.nus.sg steele, alan steele@nrcphy1.phy.nrc.ca steinkopf, dirk dirk@km21.zfe.siemens.de stirling, ian t. ian@vnet.ibm.com strazdus, stephen sstrazdu@sedona.intel.com streeter, carl cstreete@nyx.cs.du.edu sum, eva eesum00@mik.uky.edu sum, joey jpsum00@mik.uky.edu suttor, jeff jsuttor@netcom.com swallow, doug doug@montage.oau.org sward, david sward+@cmu.edu thomas, stephen swt@therson.affinity.mn.org thompson, michael tommy@msc.cornell.edu tiffany, bernard lbt@umich.edu torremans, engelbert etorrem%hvlpa@att.att.com tremain, jim jim@biology.watstar.uwaterloo.ca tsen, maoee tsen0001@student.tc.umn.edu van der lek, petja p.vanderlek@research.ptt.nl van iwaarden, ronald rvaniwaa@copper.denver.colorado.edu van woerkom, marc e.e. marc_van-woerkom@ac3.maus.de veeraraghavan, venkatesh venky@owlnet.rice.edu veldhuyzen, eric v912182@si.hhs.nl vigor, kevin kevin@wicat.com villumsen, ole ovillumsen@daimi.aau.dk wald, david wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu wallace, jack grey@vnet.ibm.com wantosch, rainer rainer@sasowa.han.de watson, brett watson@s1.elec.uq.oz.au weber-fahr, christoph weber@rhrk.uni-kl.de weeks, larry dev@ecn.purdue.edu werner, john werner@soe.berkeley.edu west, mike west@esd.dl.nec.com weyrich, orville uunet.uu.net!weyrich!orville white, andrew apwhite@csugrad.cs.vt.edu wiersema, brian brianw@umd5.umd.edu wimmer, carsten carsten_wimmer@train.fido.de wittenauer, allen allen_wittenauer@crispy.carb.il.us woodbury, gregory ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us worthington, stephen stephen@actrix.gen.nz wright, gregory gregory@bcstec.ca.boeing.com wyble, richard transfer.stratus.com!schunix!rwyble young, david m. dyoung@netcom.com zabbal, christian kris@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca zawodny, jeremy jzawodn@andy.bgsu.edu zou, nan nan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu --:--~ (os| mike levis unofficial os/2 spokesmodel s/2) .--:-| --:--(os/2)| mlevis@lonestar.utsa.edu -> votes (os/2)--~ | mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu -> clarifications 
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 point of view, why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi- tasking? data is data, and it could be anywhere on the drive. can scsi find it faster? can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster? does it have a better cache system? i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached. if we are only talking about a single drive, explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive. ide: integrated device electronics currently the most common standard, and is mainly used for medium sized drives. can have more than one hard drive. asynchronous transfer: ~5mb/s max. why don't you start with the spec-sheet of the isa bus first? you can quote scsi specs till you're blue in the face, but if they exceed the isa bus capability, then what's the point? who says ide is limited to 5 megs/sec? what about vlb-ide? does anyone know how they perform? so at its lowest setting scsi-2 interface in asynchronous scsi-1 mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode. in full scsi-2 mode it blows poor ide out the window, down the street, and into the garbage can. as implimented on what system? the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi-2 comes from. not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi-2 through put. given the original question (scsi used only as a single hard drive controller), is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least 5, maybe 10 megs/sec for the scsi choice to make any sence? what does a 200-400 meg 5 megs/sec scsi drive cost? the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy: few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc, which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi {which would reduce its cost} is unwarented, and so scsi is expencive. {that is the effect of the rule of scale: the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost} the original cga cart back in '84 was $300. i think the original ega card (or pga?) was $800. scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down in price, mainly because we're talking about pc's and not sun's or sparc or sgi or (name your favorite unix workstation). that is, after millions of pc buying decisions over the years, scsi has had plenty of time to come down in price. i won't argue that the scsi standard makes for a good, well implimented data highway, but i still want to know why it intrinsically better (than ide, on an isa bus) when it comes to multi-tasking os's when managing data from a single scsi hard drive. 
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 s >there is one param in the bios setup that says at bus clk. i have clock, which is beyond isa specs, but may be ok if all of the cards can run that fast. i would set it to 3 ( in fact i did ) and set it back if anything acts weird ( e.g. you get unexplainable floppy drive errors, your modem locks up, you have video problems, etc. ). if you overdrive the at bus, then that should be the first thing to check if you get an error on your system. it is pretty safe to overdrive your at bus, as long as your isa cards still work flawlessly. i suggest backing up your hd before playing with it though. on my 486dx-50 (really 50, not dx2), my at bus is set to clk/3. at 16.67 mhz, i have no problems. soundblaster pro, zoom 14.4 fxm, rll controller, etc. all work fine. if i set it to 2 (25 mhz), i simply don't get past the post routines. i doubt you could actually damage much by playing with it. 
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 i recently acquired an ast hot shot 286 accellerator board for an 8088 sans documentation. does anyone know what the dip switches on the back of the card do? did it come with software? any help or information about the card would be greatly robert m. bultman | speed scientific school | university of louisville | internet: rmbult01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu | robert m. bultman | speed scientific school | university of louisville | internet: rmbult01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu | 
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 recently, when i run the norton disk surface test, i realize a slow down in harddisk accessing. at begining of the test, the harddisk will be checked at the speed that usually is. as the surface test scaned half way through my harddisk, a tremendous slow down occured. the expected time for operation will jump from 3 to 6 minutes. i try to use some of the harddisk tools to check if there is any physical damage to my harddisk and report always turn out to be none. the surface test only slow down for a certain section of the disk and turn back to the original speed after it gets over the section. i am wondering whether it is a harddisk problem or some other problems. anyway help or comment will be appriciate.... shane cheney wang 
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 i have wd1007-wa2 esdi controller with rom bios v.1.1. it has been working fine until i recently upgraded motherboard to 386-40mhz. now, my maxter drive goes crazy making lots of seeking sound even when the drive is not accessed. of course, with numourous hard disk controller errors. these symptoms disappear when i switch to non-turbo mode (8 mhz). i suspect some timing dependent rom bios routines. (there's a newer version 2.x) could anybody help me on this? by the way, my new mother board has ami bios, 128k cache, 8 mhz bus, and works fine with my old mfm drives (i had to dig them up). :-( also, i will appreciate it very much if somebody send me the phone numbers (tech support/bbs) for western digital. many thanks in advance. physics, uw, seattle, wa 98195 (206)543-7543 choe@phys.washington.edu 
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 i'm using int15h to read my joystick, and it is hideously slow. something like 90% of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick, and this is in a program that does nothing but printf() and joyread(). the problem is that a lot of programs trap int15h ( like smartdrv ) and so it is a slow as hell interface. can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling? and that isn't platform or clockspeed specific? 
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 i've just installed a new colorado jumbo 250 tape backup unit from gateway, and i have a couple of complaints with it. i don't know how common or serious these problems may be. i would appreciate some feedback from others who have used this system. (btw, this is on a 4dx2-66v tower system.) i have a similar configuration: colorado 250mb on 66 dx/2 tower. the problems are: o firstly, gateway shipped me only 120 mb tapes, even though the drive is a 250 mb unit. when i called to complain, they only said: "that's all we carry," and "with compression, you can fit 250 mb on one tape." maybe so, but then why did i pay extra for the large capacity tape drive? you got suckered in the same way i did. silly me, believing that the "250" logo on the front meant actual carrying capacity. the people who do this sort of thing for a living call it "marketing." lawyers who prosecute it call it "fraud." perhaps we can have a bunch of other duped buyers march on their corporate headquarters. o i have about 230 mb of data on my c: drive. i choose the space-optimizing compression scheme and started a full backup. the software estimated it would take about 22 minutes. it took 4 1/2 hours. does this sound about right? this is a bit long. my system takes about 45 minutes to do the same thing. usually 4.5 hours, particularly if the tape is grinding away the whole time means that your block size for the write is too small. is there any way to change the block size or write buffer size so it's bigger? o during the backup, about a dozen files came up with "access denied" errors. most of these were in c:\windows\system (comm.drv, keyboard.drv, shell.dll, etc.), but also c:\windows\progman.exe and a couple of files in the c:\tape directory. anyone else had this happen? this is because the files are opened by dos. the files in the tape directory are likely the executable file or the configuration file for the tape system. i would recommend running the backup from dos so it will make a complete backup of the tape directory. thanks for any and all feedback on this system. i'd also appreciate hearing of good sources for blank tape cartridges, preferably 250 mb the 250mb cartridges won't do you any good since the drive won't write 250mb of physical data on the tape. -brent williams (brentw@netcom.com) san jose, california 
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 ] hi there, ] : i have 1s/1p/1g i/o card in my 386/40 pc. ] : when i plug in wang modem at com4,it works. if i change ] : it to com1- it doesn't. ] : program "chkport" gives diagnostics like "possible com /irq ] : conflict at com1" (with mouse driver in memory). ] since your io-card only has one serial port - this should default to com1 ? ] under ms-dos, you can't share irq's - so you'll have to set either your modem ] or your mouse to com2 ... using different adresses and irq's. ] when you set two 'devices' onto the same irq - like com1 and com3 (or 2 and 4) ] - the 'latter' one will always win, i.e. if you have your mouse on com1 and ] start using your modem on com3, your modem should work - but your mouse will ] stop doing so, until reboot. ] it should be no problem, setting your modem to com2 ? (you didn't write ] anything about other peripherals ...) ] i hope, it helped a bit .... by(t)e, oli. i'm kind of new at the pc stuff. my machine has 4 serial ports. com 1 and3 and 2 &4 share same irqs. you mean i can't plug a mouse into com1 and a modem into com3 and expect both to work? if answer is no, should i change irq's for com ports to be different? and, does it really matter which irq i set the ports too? phil hunt "wherever you go, there you are!" howtek, inc. internet: phil@howtek.mv.com uucp: {decvax|harvard}!mv!howtek!phil 
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 i want to buy a 17" monitor, any comment on nanno t560i, nec 5fg, sii 17" ??? thanks a lot. forrest normandy | the hong kong university of internet : cs_ngfo@stu.ust.hk | science and technology e-mail : cs_ngfo@uxmail.ust.hk | department of computer science phone : (852) 358-8631 rm 608 |------------------------------------ paging : 1128635 a/c 4860 | rm 608, ug hall 4, hkust, hong kong windows sources magazine reviewed a number of 17" monitors recently and they too said that the nanao t560i was the best monitor to get if you had the money. but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro 17 is the next best choice and that it has superb picture quality. this monitor can be had for around $1070. has anyone actually seen any of these? i am also thinking of buying a 17" monitor and was going to consider the mitsubishi. if i remember correctly, i think its viewing area is 16" measured diagonally. mohammad al-ansari alansari@cs.indiana.edu 
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 in pc magazine april 27, 1993:29 "although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi, 20% faster than ide, and support up to 7 devices its acceptance ...has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches." note what it does not site as a factor: price. int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi {from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi-1 only since scsi-2 in full implimentation has ten not 7 devices.} scsi-1 intergration is sited as another part of the microsoft plug and play 
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 is it possible to use an esdi-controller with hdd together with an ide-harddisk + controller in one isa-system? i've read stuff about secondary controllers. does this trick work? thanx in advance, monty@win.tue.nl i have the same question as guido. it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave ? at the moment , i have been using the esdi drive and recently i bought a ide drive to use as the 2nd drive . the person in the computer shop told me that it is not possible to run 2 disk controller cards together on the same motherboard ( esdi and ide ) but i think there might be some way of making them work. can anybody enlighten me on this? and it is possible to run a esdi hdd using a ide controller? or vice versa? can anybody please help me out on this? your help will be very much appreciated. g.chow els390r@fawlty1.eng.monash.edu.au els390r@mdw013.cc.monash.edu.au gtchow@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 
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 hi! i have a problem with my floppy drives. in an effort to make my 3.5" drive (normally b:) my a: drive, i switched the order of connections on the cable from the serial card/floppy/ide controller. i booted up, changed the cmos settings to reflect the a: drive as the 3.5 and the b: drive as the 5.25. the drive lights didn't come on, and there was a failure trying to read from those drives. i switched the cables back to their original positions, and then booted-up and restored the original cmos settings. the lights for the floppies came on during this process, and they stay on for as long as the computer is on. i see that when there is a disk in a:, the drive is spinning, yet there seems to be no disk access. msd.exe and norton si detect both drives, but when i try to get detailed information about a: or b:, norton si tells me that there is no disk in the drive. can anyone offer any suggestions? i'm in desperate need of help!!! thank you for your time. eric balog balog@eniac.seas.upenn.edu 
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 i finally got the vesa driver for my ati graphics ultra plus (2m). however, when i tried to use this to view under 24bit mode, i get lines on the picture. with 16bit or below, the picture is fine. can someone tell me what was wrong? is it the card, or is it the software? 8) _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ user's name: edward wong internet: wong@ws13.webo.dg.com telephone: (508) 870-9352 
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 it depends on what you'd like your joystick for. i've seen gravis joysticks at radio shack. they seemed flimsy and didn't fit well in my hand. i have heard on c.s.i.p.games that they don't last well (less than a year) on flightsims. one redeeming feature does seem to be the ability to adjust the tension of the stick. i recently purchased a ch flightstick. there aren't any suction cups and no tension adjusters but otherwise it seems to be an excellent joystick. i'm currently using it for the wing commander series and red baron. works quite well. the large base does not require a steadying hand and so leaves it free. the buttons provide good tactile response (you can hear and feel them well). there are other models made by ch that can go up or down in features. for price comparison gravis analogue joysticks sell for ~$35.00 here compared to the $45.00 i paid for a ch flightstick. i think the extra $10.00 is worth it just in feel. best thing to do is to ask a salesperson to let you try them out or at least feel it before you buy. just another note, analogue joysticks are best for flightsims or something that needs sensitive touch. if you're only playing games such as castle wolfenstein or some other game that only uses digital input (ie. only up, down, left, etc. instead of 'how much right') you might want to look into a gravis gamepad. they look like a nintendo control pad but i don't know much beyond that. will christie | aatchoo! | philosophy: the principles and university of manitoba | uh-oh... | science of thought and reality winnipeg, mb, canada | i'm leaking | philosopher: someone who thinks chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca | brain lubricant. | they're useful to society 
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 can anyone tell me if this card works with the march os/2 2.1 beta? i believe so, since the buslogic cards have proven to be very reliable in os/2 2.0.... where do i get os/2 drivers? endusers (not oem manufactures) will get all the software package with the card which includes drivers for novell, os/2, unix & xenix and so forth. does this card work with the toshiba 3401b cdrom? (in dos or os/2) here is my setup: quantam scsi hd toshiba 3401b cdrom i'm considering the 542b because i have been told buslogic's support is better than adaptecs and that the 542b performs better than the 1542c. anyways, i just want to know if the 542b will work in os/2 & dos with my above peripheals. thank you extremely much for any and all replies. 
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 i've just replaced my existing dtc scsi controller with an adaptec 1542b, and am now having trouble restoring from a jumbo 250 tape drive. here's a document that i wrote some time back. it's slightly out-of-date, now that dos 6 has been released, but much of it is still -- darryl okahata internet: darrylo@sr.hp.com disclaimer: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion or policy of hewlett-packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day. $id: adaptec.txt 1.8 1993/01/25 00:55:08 darrylo rel darrylo $ hints and tips for the adaptec 1540/1542 scsi adapter this document contains hints and tips for getting the adaptec 1540/1542 scsi adapter to work with various hardware and software packages. they are based upon my experiences with an adaptec 1542a controller, and will, hopefully, help others. however, note that i cannot guarantee that the following will really help you (it works for me), and the information in this document could possibly cause you to lose some or all of your files on your hard disk. important! back up the entire contents of your hard disk before trying anything based upon information in this document. copyright 1993, by darryl okahata. this document may be freely copied for personal use only, and may not be reprinted in a for-profit publication without the consent of the author. please note that i have no connection with adaptec other than as a customer. topics covered in this document: * windows 3.1 enhanced mode * floppy-controller-based tape backup devices * sound cards * miscellaneous info please note that parts of this document contain technical, and sometimes terse, descriptions of problems. for reference: adaptec technical support: (800) 959-7274 adaptec bbs (2400/9600): (408) 945-7727 please send comments, corrections, etc. via email to me: compuserve: 75206,3074 internet: darrylo@sr.hp.com ***** windows 3.1 enhanced mode: the windows 3.1 install program should automatically configure dos and windows for use with the adaptec 1542. however, just in case something went wrong, i'm going to describe some of the changes needed to get windows 3.1 working with the 1542. also, you may have noticed that installing windows 3.1 makes your pc run much slower, even when you're not running windows; methods of speeding it up are discussed in the section called, "windows 3.1 runs slowly". * msdos configuration: the windows install program adds the smartdrive disk cache to your config.sys and autoexec.bat files. if you follow the instructions, you'll notice that you'll need to use double-buffering with smartdrive (this is the default setup). you'll also notice that your system runs much, much slower -- in both windows *and* msdos. see the section called, "windows 3.1 runs slowly", for some ways of speeding your system * windows configuration: to get the adaptec 1542 to work with windows, make sure that the "[388enh]" section of the system.ini file contains the entry: virtualhdirq=off i believe that the windows install program automatically adds this entry to system.ini, but i'm not sure. if this doesn't work for you, you might want to try adding some more lines: virtualhdirq=off systemrombreakpoint=false emmexclude=a000-cfff (you probably don't need the above lines, though.) the "systemrombreakpoint" entry is used to enable support for memory managers like qemm/386max (only needed if you use such programs). * windows 3.1 runs slowly: once you do get windows 3.1 running with the 1542, chances are that your system is running much slower than before. if it's not, it's probably because: 1. you happen to be using aspi4dos.sys version 3.1 in your config.sys file. congratulations -- this appears to be a winning solution. 2. you are very lucky. whether your luck will hold out remains to be seen .... if your system is running much slower than before, this is almost definitely caused by smartdrive with double-buffering. according to the windows documentation, and the microsoft technical note #q81808 ("smartdrive double buffering required with aspi4dos.sys"), you must use smartdrive with double-buffering enabled. while this works, it really slows down your pc; i once estimated that this slowed my pc down by a factor of 5 (five). as i consider this unacceptable, i looked for other unfortunately, you cannot just disable double-buffering. if you do, windows 3.1 in enhanced mode will not work, and you might even destroy the contents of your hard disk by trying to run windows 3.1. what you can do is one of the following: 1. use other drivers that provide double-buffering. it is my opinion that the unbelievable slowness in smartdrive is caused either by horribly inefficient double-buffering, or by a bug in 2. use a driver that provides "vds" services ("vds" stands for "virtual dma services"). this is a standard, which is supported by windows 3.1, that allows bus-mastering disk controllers (like the 1542) to work with windows. after trashing my hard disk countless times, i found the following solutions, none of which require using smartdrive (note, however, that i am now getting occasional parity errors, which are probably *not* caused by these solutions, but might be -- see below). while the following does not require smartdrive, using some kind of disk cache utility is strongly recommended, as this makes windows run much, much faster: 1. if you do not have the aspi4dos.sys driver, or you do not need aspi functions (for controlling a cdrom, tape drive, more than two physical hard disks, etc.), you can add the scsiha.sys driver to your config.sys file, e.g.: driver=c:\scsiha.sys /v386 (windows needs the "/v386" option.) this driver must be loaded into low memory (it cannot be loaded into high memory), and it occupies about 16-20k. as of november 1992, the scsiha.sys driver could be obtained from the adaptec bbs at (408)-945-7727 (hopefully, it's still there). 2. if you need aspi functions and have the aspi4dos.sys driver, version 3.0 or 3.0a, you can use both the aspi4dos.sys and scsiha.sys drivers in your config.sys file, e.g.: driver=c:\aspi4dos.sys driver=c:\scsiha.sys /v386 amazingly enough, the scsiha.sys driver can also be loaded high (assuming you have dos 5.0); i would have thought that this would crash my system, but it doesn't. i asked adaptec's technical support about this, and they said that loading scsiha.sys high should be fine as long as aspi4dos.sys is loaded low. on my system, not using scsiha.sys with aspi4dos 3.0a would occasionally cause windows 3.1 to crash upon restarting or exiting windows, with the additional result of a corrupted disk (some of my c:\windows\*.grp files would be corrupted). for me, these crashes usually occurred while making a different program from progman.exe the default windows shell, and vice-versa. this is the reason scsiha.sys may be necessary. i have absolutely no idea if scsiha.sys is necessary with versions of aspi4dos earlier than 3.0. note that many people can use aspi4dos 3.0 or 3.0a without scsiha.sys; they do not seem to have any problems at all. i consider these people lucky. others, like me, have had all sorts of problems. 3. in my opinion, the best, but not necessarily the easiest, solution is to upgrade to aspi4dos 3.1. the scsiha.sys driver is no longer needed. unfortunately, while you could get previous aspi4dos upgrades from the adaptec bbs, the aspi4dos 3.1 driver is not available from the adaptec bbs. as far as i know, there are only three ways to get a copy: * you can buy the new (as of november 1992) adaptec ez scsi driver kit, which supposedly includes aspi4dos 3.1 as well as other drivers, such as cdrom drivers. i believe the list price is around $75. * if you already have a copy of an older version of aspi4dos, you can supposedly contact adaptec to upgrade it to ez scsi for around $30. * a copy of aspi4dos 3.1 is included in central point pc tools 8.0 for msdos. note that the documentation and driver are stored in different directories. note further that only aspi4dos is included; the cdrom drivers and drivers to support more than two hard disks are not included. this is where i obtained my copy of aspi4dos 3.1. note, however, that i am now getting occasional parity errors with windows. in all probability, defective hardware in my pc is causing this, as i upgraded my motherboard just after i found the above solutions. however, because these parity errors occur only during disk accesses, there is a very small, but definite, possibility that the parity errors are driver-related (for example, changing the bus on/off timing for certain disk transfers might cause this). i've run various memory tests for hours at a time, and these tests have found no problems. this problem is probably caused by memory with marginal timing requirements, which cause parity errors during disk transfers (this is why the memory tests didn't find any problems -- the problems show up only under disk i/o). however, i'm mentioning this just in case it isn't a hardware problem. ***** floppy-controller-based tape backup devices: there are two possible problems with using the adaptec 1542 with a floppy-controller-based tape backup device, such as the colorado memory systems jumbo 250: 1. tape backups/restores can take a very long time. the tape drive constantly starts, stops, starts, stops, etc. 2. tape operations may be erratic, or encounter too many tape errors. (this problem might be caused by defective hardware on my 1542. however, i've heard of other people having similar problems, and so i'm mentioning this just in case it is not a hardware problem on my 1542.) * tape backups/restores take a long time: if you have a floppy-controller-based tape backup device, you may have to adjust the adaptec 1540/1542 "bus on/off timing" for best results when using the tape drive. normally, while doing a tape backup or restore, the tape drive motor should be continuously running, with only an occasional pause. however, the default bus timing on the adaptec 1540/1542 may cause the tape drive motor to start and stop, start and stop, every few seconds. this causes needless wear to the tape and tape drive (however, note that a dirty tape head or a defective tape drive can also cause this -- make sure your tape heads are clean). this also causes the tape backup or restore to take much, much longer than necessary. the problem here is that these tape backups use the floppy dma to transfer data in memory to/from the tape drive, and the adaptec uses dma to transfer data in memory to/from the hard disk. the floppy dma needs to feed data to the tape drive at a certain rate; if the tape drive is not fed data quickly enough by the floppy dma, the tape drive stops, rewinds a bit, and restarts (once enough data is eventually fed to it). the default bus timing on the adaptec (which is really dma timing) is "too large". for example, when a backup is done, data has to be transferred from a hard disk to memory, and then from memory to the tape. because the default timing on the adaptec "hogs" the memory too much (too much time is spent transferring data from a hard disk to memory), not enough time is spent transferring data from memory to the tape drive. as a result, the tape drive constantly starts and stops, because data is not fed to it quickly enough. the solution is to change the adaptec's bus on/off timing. the default factory setting is 11 microseconds on, and 5 microseconds off. the "bus on" timing needs to be lowered to 2-4 microseconds. this can be done in one of two ways: * if you have aspi4dos, you can use the "/n" option. for example, i use a "bus on" timing of 4 microseconds, which means that i use the following line in my config.sys file: device=c:\aspi4dos.sys /n4 note that there is no space between the "/n" and the "4". * if you don't have aspi4dos, your only recourse is to try to find a program called "setscsi.exe", which is very difficult to find. the reason is that adaptec, for reasons of their own, does not seem to want this widely distributed. i once asked someone who worked for adaptec, and they asked me to not upload it anywhere. if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet, you could try using archie to hunt down a copy; i believe that there are a couple of sites that have it. if you do find a copy, you run it like so: setscsi -n:4 this adjusts the "bus on" timing to 4 microseconds. running setscsi.exe without any arguments resets the bus timing back to the factory defaults. note that it seems that you cannot use setscsi.exe if you use aspi4dos; setscsi.exe crashed my system if aspi4dos was loaded. i could use setscsi.exe with scsiha.sys, however. do not lower the "bus on" timing below 2 microseconds, or increase it above 11 microseconds. if you lower it too low, the hard disk throughput will suddenly drop; your system will feel slower. for me, 4 microseconds works fine. this value may work fine for you, or you may have to adjust it downwards a little. once you've lowered the "bus on" timing, tape backups and restores should run faster. also, do not experiment with the bus on/off times (with the other options that i have intentionally not described), unless you know what you are doing. bad combinations can cause parity errors and worse, by starving memory refresh. a program called bustifix.exe exists on the adaptec bbs. unless this has been upgraded since i last checked (which has been a while), this is a self-extracting archive containing a batch file and a couple of other files. this batch file was supposed to allow one to set the bus on/off times for the 1540/1542 and others. however, when i tried running this program with my 1542a, my system crashed. at the time, i was running scsiha.sys, and i didn't check to see if there was a conflict with it. maybe this old program works only with the 1542b, although the docs say that it works with the 1542a? * erratic tape operations or too many tape errors: this "problem" may or may not exist. although it existed on my system, a hardware problem just on my particular 1542 could cause it. however, i've heard of other people having similar problems, and so i'm mentioning this just in case it isn't a hardware problem just on my symptoms of this "problem", which persists even after cleaning the tape head: 1. backing up to tape encounters "unusable sector detected" errors, resulting in an aborted tape backup. 2. tape backup works, but the tape compare fails. 3. the tape drive starts, stops, starts, stops, etc. much too often. unlike the above-mentioned problem ("tape backups/restores take a long time"), where the tape drive starts and stops every few seconds, this kind of starting/stopping occurs every few 10-20 seconds or so. 4. fastback plus 3.1 does not find/see any tape backup devices. other programs, like central point backup and the cms jumbo software (assuming that you have a cms jumbo 250 tape drive) can find/see the tape drive, but fastback plus 3.1 cannot. 5. too many tape read errors. although i do not know what is causing this problem, i discovered that using a different floppy controller solves it. a few months ago, i upgraded my motherboard, which contained an integrated floppy controller. as i already had a floppy controller on the 1542, i initially disabled the motherboard floppy controller. after a while, i decided to try disabling the 1542 floppy controller and using the one on the motherboard. when i did this, the tape drive (a cms jumbo 250) reliability increased dramatically, and fastback plus 3.1 was suddenly able to find and use the tape drive. i don't know if this was caused by a hardware problem on my 1542. on the one hand, the floppy drives worked great when they were attached to the 1542, which seems to say that there was nothing wrong with the 1542. on the other hand, the tape drive didn't work well attached to the 1542 floppy controller, but it did work when attached to a different controller; this could be an indication of a hardware problem on my 1542. i did change floppy drive cables, and so it is conceivable that the problem was in the cables. i don't know what the cause really is; however, if you're having similar problems, you might want to consider trying a new floppy controller. ***** sound cards: many popular sound cards can play or record digitized sound, and this is typically done using dma. like the tape drive dma, the adaptec's dma can conflict with the sound card dma. unlike that of the tape dma, this "conflict" usually manifests itself as a parity error (your system crashes with a parity error message). what happens is that, data is being transferred so quickly by the sound card and the adaptec, memory refresh cannot occur quickly enough, which causes a parity error. usually, getting a parity error means that there is a hardware problem with your system; in this case, however, the parity error is not a symptom of bad hardware. i've found that such parity errors typically occur while recording digitized sound, and the chances of such errors increase as you increase the recording fidelity (e.g., higher sampling rate, recording in stereo, recording using 16-bits instead of 8, etc.). like the tape drive solution, the solution here is to lower the adaptec's "bus on" timing. see the section on tape drives for information on how this is done. note, however, that this may or may not solve the problem; it may only reduce the probability of a parity error. the software used to record digitized sound can greatly affect this problem (i.e., some software is inefficient). disk caches, the speed of your hard disk, and the amount of disk fragmentation can also affect this. ***** miscellaneous info: this section contains miscellaneous hints, tips, and rumors. much of it is merely information that i've heard or read about, and have not verified. i believe that the following information is correct, but i'm not sure. use it at your own risk. * with qemm 6.00, 6.01, and 6.02, you need to specify the "db=" parameter (e.g., "db=2"), unless you are using the aspi4dos driver. if you don't, qemm will crash/hang at bootup. although the qemm manual mentions this, the install program does not seem to detect that a 1542 is present and automatically add this option to the qemm command line (at least, this occurred with the qemm 6.00 install program -- i haven't tested any other version). earlier versions of qemm probably need this parameter, but i'm not sure (i've never used a version earlier than 6.00). if you use aspi4dos, you do not need to give qemm the "db=" parameter. * some or all versions of the 1542 do not support hard disks over one gigabyte in size. to support hard disks with capacities over 1gb, you need to get a new rom bios from adaptec. i'm not sure if this is still true of the latest 1542bs being sold by adaptec. * to connect a cdrom drive to the 1542, you need a scsi cdrom drive and some drivers. note that some cdrom drives have proprietary interfaces (non-scsi); these drives cannot be used with the 1542. you have three choices for cdrom drivers (i have no idea how well the following solutions work, or even if they work -- the following is secondhand information): 1. you can buy adaptec's ez scsi driver package, which lists for something like $75. if you already have older adaptec drivers, you can supposedly upgrade to ez scsi for around $30. contact adaptec for details. the ez scsi package supposedly contains everything that you need. 2. you can buy the corelscsi! driver package, which is made by the same people that make coreldraw! this package contains cdrom drivers, scsi tape drivers, worm drivers, etc. i do not know the list price, but i've seen this package sold for around $80-$90. note that corelscsi! does not come with the aspi4dos driver, which is needed. if you do not already have aspi4dos, you may be better off getting adaptec's ez scsi instead. 3. [this method is obsolete, as the following drivers have been obsoleted by adaptec's ez scsi kit, but i'm mentioning it in case someone already has these drivers.] you can use the drivers in the adaptec asw-1410 kit (aspi4dos) and the asw-410 kit (aspi cdrom drivers). you will have to get a copy of mscdex.exe (a high-level cdrom driver), if it is not included in the asw-410 kit, but this is available from several bulletin * to use a scsi tape drive with the 1542, you need software that knows how to talk to a scsi tape drive. software that i've heard about are (again, like the above section on cdrom drives, i have no idea how well the following solutions work, or even if they work -- the following is secondhand information): 1. central point pc tools 8.0 for msdos supposedly supports a large number of scsi tape drives. it comes with scsi drivers (aspi4dos 3.1) as well as central point backup. 2. the corelscsi! driver package contains a scsi tape backup program (see the above section on cdrom drives for more details). however, note that corelscsi! does not come with, but requires, aspi4dos. * i've seen advertisements that sell the 1542 in three configurations: 1. 1542 scsi controller with hard disk rom bios. 2. 1542 scsi controller w/bios and adaptec aspi drivers. 3. 1542 scsi controller w/bios, adaptec aspi drivers, and corelscsi! drivers/programs. i imagine that adaptec now sells the 1542 in a fourth configuration: 4. 1542 scsi controller w/bios and ez scsi drivers (including aspi drivers). * those people who use unix might be interested in a version of gnu tar for msdos that talks to a scsi tape drive via the aspi4dos driver (you need this driver before you can use this program). i've never used this version of gnu tar, but i've heard that it works (i don't know how well, though). if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet, a copy can be found on wsmr-simtel20.army.mil and mirror sites: pd1:<msdos.dskutl> aspibin.zip 67841 920131 gnu tar for scsi tape drives, adaptec 154xx aspipat.zip 21206 920131 patches for aspibin relative to gnu tar 1.10 aspisrc.zip 221370 920131 src for gnu tar for scsi tape, adaptec ctrlr i have no idea if a copy can be found on compuserve; unixforum might have it, if any forum does. * as far as msdos is concerned, the 1542a and the 1542b controllers are the same; with msdos, the 1542a should work as well as the 1542b. however, the hardware for these two boards is not 100% identical, and there is at least one (non-msdos) program that initially did not work with a 1542a, but did work with a 1542b (bsd386 -- a 386 version of bsd unix). * in case anyone's curious, here's an edited copy of my config.sys file: files=40 buffers=40 break=on stacks=10,256 device=c:\sys\dev\aspi4dos.sys /d /n4 device=c:\qemm\qemm386.sys on ram rom dma=32 st:m x=f800-ffff dos=high,umb devicehigh=c:\sys\dev\nnansi.sys devicehigh=c:\dos\setver.exe shell = c:\dos\command.com /p note that i'm using qemm and aspi4dos 3.1. if i were using aspi4dos 3.0 or 3.0a, i'd probably have to use a config.sys that looked like: files=40 buffers=40 break=on stacks=10,256 device=c:\sys\dev\aspi4dos.sys /d /n4 device=c:\qemm\qemm386.sys on ram rom dma=32 st:m x=f800-ffff dos=high,umb devicehigh=c:\sys\dev\scsiha.sys /v386 devicehigh=c:\sys\dev\nnansi.sys devicehigh=c:\dos\setver.exe shell = c:\dos\command.com /p if i weren't using aspi4dos, i'd probably use something that looked like: files=40 buffers=40 break=on stacks=10,256 device=c:\sys\dev\scsiha.sys /v386 device=c:\qemm\qemm386.sys on ram rom db=32 dma=32 st:m x=f800-ffff dos=high,umb devicehigh=c:\sys\dev\nnansi.sys devicehigh=c:\dos\setver.exe shell = c:\dos\command.com /p however, if i used a floppy-controller-based tape drive, or if i planned to record high-quality sound from a sound card, i would still need some way of changing the adaptec's bus on/off times. the first two versions of config.sys take care of this, but this last version doesn't. local variables: fill-column: 72 eval: (auto-fill-mode nil) end: 
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 my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back. i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive......ma sl ?? i can't remember what the last one was. if you can't find these markings on the circuit board, i'll open my machine and tell you what mine are....... kevin holly mcmaster university, hamilton, ontario hollyk@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca 
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 everybody, dos 6 users in particular, take note: if you want to play games that hate/use their own upper memory manager, dos 6 is not a problem. no boot disks required. as your system starts up, hit the f5 key. this tells it to bypass config and autoexec altogether. you get a plain, generic session of dos, with nothing loaded. <there's another function key that actually steps thru config.sys asking if you want to execute each line, but i've forgotten it at the moment...you can try finding it - i think it's f9...> no, you need not bypass the config.sys, in dos 6.0, there is a function of multi-config, have you tried boot.sys ? the multi-config is the kind that you can choose you config.sys at the startup. and i find that is very good. it has no conflict to qemm. (i have problem when using boot.sys) the key you say is f8, which is trace the config.sys step by step. sorry, if any error :) phillip (phillipau@cuhk.hk) 
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 1-800-832-4778 western digital's voice mail - can get information on many drives, or an actual person at the end. 
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 g'day all, i was looking to build a parallel port digital to analogue converter the other day and came across this schematic which i promptly threw together on a piece of veroboard: p2----22k----+ p3----48k----| p4----100k---| p5----200k---| p6----400k---| p7----800k---| 10uf electrolytic p8----1m6----| + p9----3m2----+---||--+---------- 47nf ceramic - p25------------------+---------- (please excuse the obvious limits of the lower ascii char set :=) i have it all constructed here and sitting inside a nice little grey abs box. unfortunately i can't get it to work... i have a little demo here by the name of cronologia (which the schematic came from) and all i can get it to pump out of the box is data type hash/static with a small amount of music signal behind it - it's even worse than the speaker inside the machine. does anybody out in net.colourful.computer.world have any ideas/suggestions/ better designs/improvements/wastepaper bin... etc? many thanks for a reply via this conference or email. \x/ regards, jason. | jason bordujenko computer department | | internet/usenet: d12751@tanus.oz.au townsville grammar school | | fidonet node : 3:640/702 (grammar bbs) 45 paxton street | | data phone no. : +61 77 72 6052 (int.) townsville queensland 4810 | | : (077) 72 6052 (aust.) australia | | facsimilie : +61 77 72 2340 (int.) | | : (077) 72 2340 (aust.) | | god made him simple, | | science made him god | | -stephen king's `the lawnmower man' | 
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 you can get the heat sinks at digi-key 1-800-344-4539 part #hs157-nd $4.10 size 1.89"l x 1.89"w x .600"h comes with clips to install it. but if it was me i would get a $12.99 small fan from radio shack and install it where it could just blow at the cpu instead...sam gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60217">
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 in the edn magazine i found a note about the new c&t 82c735 i/o controller. it support several parallel port protocols, fast centronics microsoft enhanced capabilities protocol (ecp) enhanced parallel port (epp) the last two handle data rates up to 2mbytes/sec. is there any specification about these protocols available? christian franke aachen university of technology informatik i ahornstrasse 55 w-5100 aachen tel.: +49.241.80-21111 e-mail: franke@informatik.rwth-aachen.de 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60218">
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 my home viewsonic 6. i like the multisyncs because it's easy to run them in modes like 800x600x64k colors noninterlaced, or at higher modes like oh yeah! i just got my new eizo flexscan yesterday (to replace my old 8515), and i tried it with 1360x1024. this mode is just great! i can get four perfectly readable command windows on the screen! and if i need more colors, i can go back to 1024x768 or even 800x600. one thing i am wondering though: why isn't there a monxxxx.dgs file which contains all the resolutions up to 1360x1024? now i have to change the xgasetup.pro every time i want to switch, instead of simply going through the system settings of os/2. regards, martin erzberger 
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 hello world, i'm attempting to write an 8051 simulator on an ibm pc for teaching purposes, so that first-year elec-eng students can 'see' the workings of the microcontroller as it performs operations - logical ands, for example, being shown on a bit-by-bit basis (1 and 1 = 1) so that the students can see that it's not really a mystical process, but totally logical, for example. every instruction should show some 'working', and not just alter register/memory/port contents. does anyone know of any freely-available example simulation code, in pascal or modula-2, that would show me where i'm going wrong in writing my simulator? [i'm using ayala's -the 8051 microcontroller- as a reference - the simulator supplied with the package is overkill for simple teaching purposes, i feel, and there's no source code to help you roll your own.] please email me if you can help, or if you know of somewhere more appropriate i should be posting this - i rarely scan these groups. lloyd wood l.h.wood@lut.ac.uk 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60224">
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 hi folks i have 2 hd first is an seagate 130mb the second a cdc 340mb (with a future domain no ram) i'd like to change my 2 controller ide & scsi and buy a new one with ram (at least 1mb) that could controll all of them any companies? how many $? and is it possible via hw or via sw select how divide the ram cache for 2 hd? (for example using dos that is about all on one hd i'd like to reserve ram cache just to it) thanks to all write at rosa@ghost.sm.dsi.unimi.it 
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 just wanted to ask a question. i bought a hard disk drive second-hand the other day, and i opened the packaging up and saw that there was a small sticker on the drive that had a little red apple with a bite taken out of it. it's socket did not look the same as my existing hard disk that is in my computer already (it has fifty little pins sticking out from it instead of the 39 that is sticking out of my old hard disk. i don't know if disk drives for the apple (or mac) are different from ones used in at clones, so could someone tell me if i could use this hard disk on my at clone? if not, what did i just purchase? it's a quantum prodrive. it's dated 1988 on the green board. will i need a controller/add-in card? all the help is much appreciated. thanks! :) 
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 i just disassembled my old xt and get 2 disk drives - 30m hard drive and a 360k floppy drive. my questions are: -can i use these 2 drives as drives d & e on my 386sx25 ? this 386sx25 currently has 80m hard drive, 1.2m & 1.44m floppy drives. -if i can, what s/w or h/w do i need ? i would doubt that you would be able to use the hard drive. xt drives usually came in mfm or rll flavors. i bet your 386sx has ide drives. the two are not compatible on the same controller. however, you might be able to use the drive *with its controller* in your 386sx. you should be able to plug your 360k drive into your existing 386sx controller (i think). you might have to use the floppy controller that was used in the timothy hu timhu@ico.isc.com | the intelligence (or lack of) expressed interactive systems corporation | above does not necessarily reflect resource solutions international | that of anyone else. also:thu@grips0.uwyo.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60229">
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 dh>>does anyone out their have a mountain tape backup that i could compare dh>>notes with, (jumper settings, software, ect...) dh>>or does anyone know where i could contact the makers of this drive ? dh>you can contact mountain network solutions at: dh>800-458-0300 (general number) dh>408-438-7897 (tech support) dh>408-438-2665 (bbs) thanks very much for the info david ! especially for their tech and bbs lines. this should get me going... bye ! x slmr 2.1a x it's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a * origin: the keep bbs (1:342/13) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60230">
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 i started a similar thread about a month ago, and got many replies. the summary: ctx 14": nasty, low quality. avoid. ctx 15" proscan: not as good as some other makes; however, cheap. main problem seems poor quality control. some reported pincushioning (the problem i had), others poor focus, etc, etc. i complained about mine and it was 're-tuned' (i dodn't even pay shipping) and returned to me in 2 days. it's now clear, well-focussed and has no pincushioning or barrel distortion at all. i'm very happy with it, and the digital controls and mode memory are nice. certainly, a trinitron (say) would be much nicer, but that's well out of my price range. conclusion: if you're on a budget, get one and be prepared to send it back if it's not perfect. it probably won't be when you get it, but has good potential. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60231">
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 | can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall | system performance; | 486/66dx2 with isa-bus or | 486/50dx2 with eisa-bus 468dx2/66 eisa/vesa. royal, among others, is celling such a system for $2010. penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60232">
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 : >>i almost got a hernia laughing at this one. : >>if anything, scsi (on a pc) will be obsolete-> killed off by vesa local : >>bus ide. it must be real nice to get shafted by $20-$100 bucks for the : >>extra cost of a scsi drive, then pay another $200-$300 for a scsi controller. first off, with all these huge software packages and files that they produce, ide may no longer be sufficient for me (510 mb limit). second, (rumor is) microsoft recognizes the the importance of scsi and will support it soon. i'm just not sure if it's on dos, win, or nt. at any rate, the deal is with corel who makes (i hear) a good cohesive set of scsi drivers. mark ashley |disclaimer: my opinions. not harris' marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com | the lost los angelino | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60234">
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 ok..... thanks to all of you who responded to my post. here's the "official" response from orchid.. orchid is aware of the problem, the new rev of the board (rev d) should (not would) take care of the problem. production was scheduled to start on april 15, i have no confirmation that production did start on this day just the word of the tech on the other line. now the flame...... you would think a company like orchid who has produced good quality products in the past would be more helpfull and willing to make right on a screwup of theirs. very poor tech support (the first 2 times i called i must have spoke with the janitor because they where talking craziness) the last time i talked to a tech named "paul" and he seemed to have a pretty good idea what was going on. until these problems are resovled neither myself nor my department will buy or recommend orchid products. flame off..... again thanks to all of you who answered my post. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60237">
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 in a previous article, lopes@cogsci.ucsd.edu (alann lopes) says: the problem is that i recently had an hd go bad and someone suggested that it may have been because of an inadequate power supply -- how does one know what kind of wattage is necessary to run two large maxtors (1.2 and 660). i am not an expert. my understanding is the watts output of the power supply must exceed the sum of the hard disk watts requirement. typically, a 200w power supply is sufficient to power a pc. hope this help. lau hon-wah 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60238">
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 in a previous article, guyd@austin.ibm.com (guy dawson) says: something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for! v for video - the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster. this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory. well, not to be picky, but the v in vlb stands for vesa. while the v in vesa stands for video, saying the v in vlb stands for video is not entirely correct. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60241">
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 has anyone tried connecting an apple laserwriter ii to a pc? do i need any special controller card or software to do that? thanks for any comments. sardjono insani scip2060@nusunix1.nus.sg 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60244">
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 hi to all you pc gurus! i'm new to these groups and so please forgive me if my questions are frequently asked, but i don't know the answer :) i've been recently having some problems with my 386 computer with a seagate 40 meg hard drive. i occasionally find corrupted files, but most of the time programs work fine. are there any utilities that are easily available that can help me determine whether or not the problem is a result of the hard drive vs an ill-behaved program or some other hardware item? are there utilites to determine whether or not the hard drive is properly aligned etc? as might be expected, i would greatly appreciate any help on this matter. i'm considering just reformatting the disk and reinstalling everything (and hoping that will fix the problem), but i would like to have some assurance of what the problem cause is. also, can someone give me an opinion on dos 6.0? are the compression and defragmentation routines good enough to consider the upgrade if i don't have those routines already (as opposed to buying them separately)? much thanks in advance for any help. mitchel soltys soltys@radonc.unc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60245">
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 | i would like to hear the net.wisdom and net.opinions on ide controllers. | i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx2 66 motherboard. | what are good options for this (preferably under $200). it must also work | under os/2 and be compatible with stacker (and other disk compression s/w). i have a maxtor 212mb on an isa ide controller, although my machine is dx2/66 vlb. i has the save transfer rate of 0.647 mb/s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed. i tested it with speed between 5.5mhz and 8.33mhz. not _any_ difference. the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory. my advice: buy 4megs of ram, save $70 and enjoy performance. computer: 286-25 mhz bus: isa (12.5 mhz) drive: maxtor 7213a (213 mb) config.sys / autoexec.bat ms dos 5 no win 3.1 smartdrv.sys cache smartdrv.exe core (v 2.7) 6950 k/sec 1390 k/sec 1395 k/sec norton si (v 5.0) 730 k/sec 980 k/sec 982 k/sec i'd still like to here from people with vlb-ide. i still want to know what vlb bus speed is used with ide drives. i still want to know if some (most ?) ide drives can handle bus speeds > 8 mhz. ps: a friend with a 286-20 and a new maxtor 7245 (245 meg ide) drive gets between 800 - 1000 k/sec (can't remember exactly). i think the bus is running at 8 mhz in this case. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60246">
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 i have some used, but working, parts available for the original ibm laptop - the pc convertible. if you have one of these things, and still are using it, you may have found out that ibm wants outrageous prices for parts. i built up a supply of enough parts to keep mine going for a few years, and will be willing to part with the rest. basically, i have all the standard parts except: power supply i've got a few of the accessories, too - just ask. these are in very limited supply, however. i've basically just cannibalized a couple of old machines. if you are interested, please e-mail me. note: for those who want to convince themselves that they are somehow superior because they have newer and better machines, or who want to inform me that these are "worthless junk," save your effort. i'll just delete the note. those of us who bought these machines when they first came out still find them useful for word processing, etc.. i'm saving mine as a future antique. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60249">
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 in pc magazine april 27, 1993:29 "although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi, 20% faster than ide, and support up to 7 devices its acceptance ...has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches." i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re: performance. where do they get those numbers? i'll list the actual performance ranges, which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd: scsi-i ranges from 0-5mb/s. scsi-ii ranges from 0-40mb/s. ide ranges from 0-8.3mb/s. esdi is always 1.25mb/s (although there are some non-standard versions) all this shows is that you don't know much about scsi. scsi-1 {with a scsi-1 controler chip} range is indeed 0-5mb/s and that is all you have right about scsi scsi-1 {with a scsi-2 controller chip}: 4-6mb/s with 10mb/s burst {8-bit} note the increase in speed, the mac quadra uses this version of scsi-1 so it does exist. some pc use this set up too. scsi-2 {8-bit/scsi-1 mode}: 4-6mb/s with 10mb/s burst scsi-2 {16-bit/wide or fast mode}: 8-12mb/s with 20mb/s burst scsi-2 {32-bit/wide and fast}: 15-20mb/s with 40mb/s burst by your own data the "although scsi is twice as fast as esdi" is correct with a scsi-2 controller chip scsi-1 can reach 10mb/s which is indeed "20% faster than ide" {120% of 8.3 is 9.96}. all these scsi facts have been posted to this newsgroup in my mac & ibm info sheet {available by ftp on sumex-aim.stanford.edu (36.44.0.6) in the info-mac/report as mac-ibm-compare[version #].txt (it should be 173 but 161 may still be there)} part of this problem is both mac and ibm pc are inconsiant about what scsi is which. though it is well documented that the quadra has a scsi-2 chip an apple salesperson said "it uses a fast scsi-1 chip" {not at a 6mb/s, 10mb/s burst it does not. scsi-1 is 5mb/s maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which is slower} it seems that mac and ibm see scsi-1 interface and think 'scsi-1' when it maybe a scsi-1 interface driven in the machine by a scsi-2 controller chip in 8-bit mode {which is much faster then true scsi-1 can go}. don't slam an article because you don't understand what is going on. one reference for the quadra's scsi-2 controller chip is (digital review, oct 21, 1991 v8 n33 p8(1)). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60251">
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 i have a 5 1/4" drive as drive a. how can i make the system boot from my 3 1/2" b drive? (optimally, the computer would be able to boot from either a or b, checking them in order for a bootable disk. but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can't boot 5 1/4" disks, that's ok. also, boot_b won't do the trick for me.) you can try to get into the setup byt pressing ctrl-alt-ins or ctrl-alt-printscreen on most pc's. that should give you an option to set regarding the drives to boot from. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60253">
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 while playing around with my gateway 2000 local-bus machine last night, it became apparent that windows 3.1 didn't give the option for 32-bit access for virtual memory. i am using a permanent swap file, and the disk drive is on the local bus interface. is this expected, or should i be investigating further why no 32-bit option appears? thanks for any help. scott linn scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60254">
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 do you happen to know how i can get a serial mouse (9 pins) working on an ibm l40 notebook (which has a kind of bus mouse connection besides serial and parallel interfaces). the manual doesn't say anything about it. i've tried two drivers, with the result that left and right buttons are recognized, but mouse movement is not. should i cut or shortcut some wires to/from the mouse? thanks for your help. eddy zondag philips research egzondag@prl.philips.nl 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60255">
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 : what are the current products available to upgrade the resolution? : which ones support postscript? : any experiences with them, either good or bad? : is the quality difference really noticable? : i'm planning on producing camera ready copy of homes. will the higher : resolution be noticed for these? if you are talking about laser jet 4 then i believe it has to be postscript. i don't see any advantage to using pcl when you have a peice of hardware plugged into the lj4 that is doing the work and it can support any language that is suited for the job. besides i don't think pcl is even capable of handling 1200 dpi specifications. i only have experience with the laser master winjet 1200 which brings the lj4 up to 1200 dpi and it uses postscript. it also has a fast print mode which is not postscript, and it is at a lower resolution (600dpi i think), but it is fast!!!! this particular product uses your host processor to process the postscript, so even with a decent pc you know it's going to be slow i.e. slow compared to a high-end workstation processed ps. the quality difference is very noticable and is almost worth the wait (for the ps processing) - i'm rather impatient. we were using it for b&w camera images (rs-170). the gray scale image was accepted by ms word and handed to the winjet ps printer driver which converts the image into postscript and then hands it off to the winjets postscript processor. the postscript is rendered into ram (lots of it) and when it is done it shoots it directly to the printer. the ps processor can also accept ps files created from other sources including dos applications, but windows has to be running at the time of printing. the ps processor is responsible for the halftoning and i'd say it does a pretty good job. our camera images came out very good in my opinion. (not as good as laser master's demo though). i don't know how many other similar products are out there but i would be surprised if there are several. gordon lang 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60259">
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 : i have a 5 1/4" drive as drive a. how can i make the system boot from : my 3 1/2" b drive? (optimally, the computer would be able to boot : from either a or b, checking them in order for a bootable disk. but : if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that : it can't boot 5 1/4" disks, that's ok. also, boot_b won't do the trick : for me.) : thanks, : davebo we had the same issue plague us for months on our gateway. i finally got tired of it so i permanently interchanged the drives. the only reason i didn't do it in the first place was because i had several bootable 5-1/4's and some 5-1/4 based install disks which expected the a drive. i order all new software (and upgrades) to be 3-1/2 and the number of "stupid" install programs that can't handle an alternate drive are declining with time - the ones i had are now upgraded. and as for the bootable 5-1/4's i just cut 3-1/2 replacements. if switching the drives is not an option, you might be able to wire up a drive switch to your computer chasis. i haven't tried it but i think it would work as long as it is wired carefully. gordon lang 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60265">
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 excuse me to every one. i am an amiga owner and tired to have the same graphic modes. so i saw on nn there was a little bridgeboard that made the amiga's pc slots communicate with the stanndard amiga's slot. the building mother house of this little gadget assure me that using this thing i can use all the pc boards included the svga cards. i am interested in computer graphics and i do not know many things about pc in general. so, what is the best (isa slot) card on the market ? i'd like to reach resolutions like 1280x1024 with 256 colors or 800x600 with 24 bitplanes. any suggestion ?? thankyou in advance paolo silvera -- certified commodore amiga developer silvera@ghost.sm.dsi.unimi.it 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60267">
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 hey, does anybody know anything about leading technology computers?? i have a leading technology 6000sx and need a new mother board for it. does anybody know where i can get one. (leading technoology is really made by samsung. 6000sx is samsung model sd-700) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60268">
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 hi...i need some info on video card. i am looking a video card that can deliver a high quality picture. i need the card to display images (well for advertising company btw), so it must be rich with colors and the speed must be fast too. i am just wondering if somebody can advise me what to buy for such application, and possible the address of the vendor. thanks in advance glenn jayaputera 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60271">
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 for sale !!! decpc 325sxlp it's in very good condition, used for one year. it has - 25 mhz intel 386 - 52 mb hard disk - super color vga monitor - 2-button mouse - 1.44 mg floppy disk drive software: - microsoft dos 5.0 - microsoft windows 3.1 - microsoft works for windows 2.0 - borland turbo pascal 6.0 - borland turbo c++ 3.0 for dos i'm asking $1499 for the system. send me e-mail if interested. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60272">
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 : oh yeah, i just read in another newsgroup that the t560i uses a : high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors.(the sony : 1604s for example) and this is where the extra cost comes from. it : is also where the high bandwidth comes from, and the fantastic : image, and the large image size, etc, etc... : it's also where the two annoying lines across the screen (one a third : down, the other two thirds down) come from. the 2 lines are not a result of the high end trinitron tube, these 2 wires will be found on all 17" trinitron tubes (e.g., mitsubishi 17", sony 1604, etc). on 14" sony tubes, you'll find one wire. their level of annoyance is purely subjective. i'm so happy with the sharpness of the t560i that i don't even notice the lines. the t560i uses a trinitron sa tube which, when viewed as a complete tube, has a larger diameter than the standard trinitron tube. this results in a flatter screen than other 17" monitors using the standard trinitron (which has a vertically flat but not horizontally flat surface), and apparently the ability to provide a tighter beam focus. | karl tracy blomquist | e-mail: tracyb@bnr.ca | fax: 1-613-765-4018 | | consultant | "opinions are my own" | ph: 1-613-765-4886 | | bell-northern research, p.o.box 3511, stn c, ottawa, ont., k1y-4h7 | 
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 i would also like an explanation of this. if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt 1 can share an irq, please do so. i think it's simply because dos doesn't use the irq for anything. os/2 does, so with that you can't share the irq. anssi saari s106275@ee.tut.fi tampere university of technology finland, europe 
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 i just purchased a viewsonic 17 and and orchid p9000. in short, i am happy with the monitor and unhappy with the card. i have spent a lot more time futzing with the card, so that is what i am going to write about. the monitor is pretty. the moires i had under simcity on my 17" magnavox went away. it isn't as heavy as i thought it would be (45 lbs, i think). so much for the monitor. on to the bitch session and test results. in going with the modern trend, the orchid p9000 card only supports 16 colors in 640x480 mode without a driver. of course, this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes (like most of my cd-roms). the compudyne whiplash vga, orchid fahrenheit 1280, and orchid f. vlb all share this limitation. those are all s3 cards, which means it is an s3 problem for them (the p9000 uses a weitek vga chip which also doesn't support them). the hercules graphite card does seem to have these modes, but i didn't run the same test cases as i did on the other boards during the brief time i had it. it was able to print the splash screen for the grolier's encyclopedia, though, which the s3 cards just printed as hash, which is why i suspect the svga modes are supported. the supported resolutions really annoy me. you can do 1280x1024 at 75hz if you tell the driver you have an nec 5fg (they only have about six monitors listed plus 'generic', and if you choose generic you can't get any high refreshes at all). but at 1024x768 you are limited to 70hz. seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth (if it can do 75hz at 1280 it sure should be able to do it at 1024!). higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f. vlb i currently have, and it will do 1024x768x70 hz as well. the higher graphics modes all crash hp dashboard. i just got off the phone with orchid, and with the 1.1 drivers (i don't know what i have) he was unable to recreate the problem. on the plus side, their tech rep was as helpful as he could be and booted up the program on his computer to verify he didn't have the problem. he didn't know why they limited the refresh to 70 hz either. the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program. this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels/second. i don't have the numbers for the graphite card, but they were close to half of the ofvlb (ie, slower) but that was running in a 20mhz 386, isa, so the numbers aren't really comparable. the following numbers were all obtained using a 486, 33 mhz, air motherboard (umc chipset), with 8 mb memory. i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them, and these tend to jump around a bit. k means thousand (not 1024), m means million, pixels per second orchid fahrenheit vlb orchid p9000 chip s3 805 weitek 9000 dib to screen 182k - 190k 228k - 240k memory to screen 5.9m - 6.2m 8.4m - 8.9m screen to screen 14m - 14.8m 29m - 30.8m vector, solid 2.4m 2.8m - 2.9m vector, styled 55k - 58k 449k - 473k polygon, shaded 1.8m - 2.1m 1.6m - 1.9m polygon, hatched 6.9m - 7.9m 1.3m - 1.7m ternary rops 1.9m - 2.4m 477k - 520k font 130k - 160k 46k - 55k / 1.2m the dib to screen test takes a device independent bitmap of a face and transfers it to the screen. i have no idea what is being done internally as far as conversions go. the memory to screen takes the same face and copies it to the screen, my guess is after it has been rasterized into a bitmap that can just be copied to the video display. the screen to screen test copies that face from place to place on the screen. awesome! interestingly, the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement, and hatched polygons (ie, filled with cross-hatching) and ternary rops (whatever they are. graphics operations like xors maybe????) are a dead loss on the 9000. i give two numbers for the 9000 fonts, because i think they are caching. when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly -- 1/3 the speed of the ofvlb. then the speed increases dramatically. sounds like programming to a benchmark to me.... i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all. its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer. i normally don't write disclaimers, but this time maybe i'd better. my testing is totally unconnected with my work (i program under unix on decstations) is done completely without the knowledge, blessing, or equipment of my company. geoff sherwood 
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 i'd like to add a second s3 based video card to my system. does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one? all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other. probably just a configurable address would do it. 
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 hi! i'd like to switch my floppy drives so that my 3.5" b: drive becomes a:, while my 5.25" a: becomes b:. i'm having a few problems, though. i know that the ribbon cable must be switched, as well as the cmos settings, to reflect this change, and i think that i've done that correctly. however, the drives do not operate correctly in this configuration. from the c:> prompt, if i type a:, the 5.25" drive light comes on; if i type b:, both the light for the 5.25" and 3.5" drives come on. there are some jumpers on each drive: 5.25" label original pos. pos. i changed it to ds0 on off ds1 off on ds2 on on ds3 off off io off off ms1 off off d-r on on ms2 on on fg off off 3.5" ds0 off on ds1 on off ds2 off off ds3 off off mm on on dc on on md off off ttl/c-mo8 on on any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance. eric balog balog@eniac.seas.upenn.edu 
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 hi netters! i'm looking at purchasing some sort of backup solution. after you read about my situation, i'd like your opinion. here's the scenario: 1. there are two computers in the house. one is a small 286 (40mb ide drive). the other is a 386dx (213 scsi drive w/ adaptec 1522 controller). both systems have pc tools and will use central point backup as the backup / restore program. both systems have 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. 2. the computers are not networked (nor will they be anytime soon). from what i have seen so far, there appear to be at least 4 possible solutions (i'm sure there are others i haven't thought about). for these options, i would appreciate hearing from anyone who has tried them or sees any flaws (drive type x won't coexist with device y, etc.) in my thinking (i don't know very much about these beasts): 1. put 2.88mb floppy drives (or a combination drive) on each system. can someone supply cost and brand information? what's a good brand? what do the floppies themselves cost? 2. put an internal tape backup unit on the 386 using my scsi adapter, and continue to back up the 286 with floppies. again, can someone recommend a few manufacturers? the only brand i remember is colorado memories. any happy or unhappy users (i know about the compression controversy)? 3. connect an external tape backup unit on the 386 using my scsi adapter, and (maybe?) connect it to the 286 somehow (any suggestions?) 4. install a floptical drive in each machine. again, any gotcha's or recommendations for manufacturers? i appreciate your help. you may either post or send me e-mail. i will summarize all responses for the net. george j. pandelios internet: gjp@sei.cmu.edu software engineering institute usenet: sei!gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice: (412) 268-7186 pittsburgh, pa 15213 fax: (412) 268-5758 disclaimer: these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute, its sponsors, customers, clients, affiliates, or carnegie mellon university. in fact, any resemblence of these opinions to any individual, living or dead, fictional or real, is purely coincidental. so there. 
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 i'm using int15h to read my joystick, and it is hideously slow. something like 90% of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick, and this is in a program that does nothing but printf() and joyread(). the problem is that a lot of programs trap int15h ( like smartdrv ) and so it is a slow as hell interface. can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling? and that isn't platform or clockspeed specific? the joystick reads in anolog values through a digital port. how? you send a command to the port to read it, then you time how long it takes for the joystick port to set a certain bit. this time is proportional to the joystick position. obviously, since time is used as a position, you cannot get rid of this ridiculus waste of time. if you wrote your own routine instead of the bios, it would speed it up some, but the time would still be there. john a. slagel "my old man used to tell me, before he left this j-slagel1@uiuc.edu shitty world, never chase buses or women- you (217) 337-7930 always get left behind." -the marlboro man 
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 msg-id: <734606726.aa00887@f262.n620.z3.fidonet.org> posted: mon, 12 apr 1993 10:41:0 organization: compact solutions, canberra act australia 64k of 25ns sram by my way of thinking, michael, how could this memory be static ram if it has a speed rating? i didn't think sram needed a refresh time. doesn't that make it fast dram? this chip would take 25ns to return valid data after being issued an address. refresh time (none for sram, as you pointed out) is a different parameter, and is not generally referred to except by motherboard designers. ben elliston bachelor of engineering (computer engineering) university of canberra email: tp923021@jarrah.canberra.edu.au uucp: ..!uunet!munnari!sserve.adfa.oz.au!compsol!root fidonet: 3:620/262 if a train station is where the train stops, what's a workstation?! * origin: % compact solutions % canberra act australia % (3:620/262) doug oke - vancouver, canada doug_oke@mindlink.bc.ca 
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 i'm considering the purchase of a 486dx-33 vlb system to run linux. the system has an asus-brand motherboard. anyone have any comments on asus motherboards? bob craycroft | craycrof@rtp.semi.harris.com systems analyst | phone: (919) 549-3629 harris semiconductor - rtp, nc usa | 
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 hi! i recently switched my 3.5" drive to a:. the problem is, while i can read and write to both the new a: and b: correctly, i can't boot from a floppy in a:. i've checked the cmos settings; it is set for floppy seek at boot and boot order a:,c:. once, i had a floppy that did not have the systems files on it in a:. i got a message telling me to put a disk systems disk in the drive. it didn't work. when i do have a systems disk in the a: drive, this is what happens: 1) power-on and memory test; 2) a: light comes on 3) b: light comes on, followed by a short beep; 4) hd light comes on for an instant; 5) b: light comes on again, then nothing happens the light goes off, there is no disk activity of any kind, and the screen blanks. i can't even use ctrl-alt-del. any suggestions. thanks in advance. eric balog balog@eniac.seas.upenn.edu 
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 recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive (a seagate 210mb, i can look up the model number if it's important) and i've been trying to help him install it. [i've got a vested interest, since my machine's busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed.] he already has a seagate 85mb ide hd (again, i forget the model number but i can find out.) anyway, i can't seem to get the bloody thing up. i've managed to get one or the other drive up (with the other disconnected), but not both at the same time; whenever i try, the thing hangs during bootup - never gets past the system test. the ide controller's instruction sheet says it supports two drives; i think i've configured the cmos correctly; the power's plugged in properly; i even learned about the master/slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have (didn't know pcs were into s&m! 8^) and i think i configured the jumpers properly (the 85mb one is the master, the new 210mb one is the slave). the only thing i can think of is maybe i'm doing the cabling wrong. i've tried several combinations: controller - master - slave controller - slave - master master - controller - slave none of them worked. unfortunately, i can't think of any others. another possibility is that the 85mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives, c and d, and the cmos asks for "c: drive" and "d: drive" setup info rather than "drive 1" and "drive 2" like most others i've seen. could this be confusing things? so, i need help! the drive came bereft of any docs, except for some info for the cmos setup; the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card; i cannibalized the cable (it's one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle, so it looks like a serial connection); now i be lost! many, many thanks in advance! this is practically an emergency (i have two papers to do on this thing for monday!)! help! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes@sura.net (301) 982-4600 voice (301) 982-4605 fax disclaimer: i don't speak for suranet and they don't speak for me. 
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 western digital 1-800-832-4778.....sam gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60297">
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 scsi is better because it has a better future, and it has a lot of minor advantages right now. ide cards are cheaper right now, but will be obsolete in a few years. (in fact, ide cards are so cheap, they might as well be free. the real cost is in the ide drives.) scsi cards cost more, but they are worth it. i almost got a hernia laughing at this one. you'll probably get one when you realize that your $100 vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks... if anything, scsi (on a pc) will be obsolete-> killed off by vesa local with any luck pc bus archeitecture will be doen any with by sbus. have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus. it actually slows down your system bus ide. it must be real nice to get shafted by $20-$100 bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive, then pay another $200-$300 for a scsi controller. maybe my workstation doesn't understand what your vesa local bus ide is vesa local bus will be killed off by pcmi? whatever intels spec is. vlbus it not good for much more than vga cards. to each his own. i'll laugh when you start crying over how much you spent for your 2 little ide drives and then finding out you need more the biggest advantage of scsi right now is that you can add more different kinds of devices, such as tapes, etc., easily, and can add bigger disks. the best and most cost effective hard disks available are scsi. here here.... only of you need drives larger then 500 meg. oh yes, gotta have 10 megs/sec transfer rate for those speedy tape backups and cd rom drives. don't stick your foot in your mouth when you make a statement you know nothing about. i'd rather wait a second compared to the 5 minutes and ide would take. (obviously exaggerated). have you ever tried to backup 2 gigs of disk? oh i forgot you can't because you have an ide and no one makes ide disks that big. basically, if a person *has* to ask which one is better for him/her, then they will *probably* never see the expensive benefits from scsi. i guess you probably bought a 486sx too also, all this arm-waving about scsi expandability is a moot point if the user only has one or two drives on it. and with scsi those two drives *may* be fast, but that speed is only due to the onboard memory cache -> something i can duplicate with a caching ide controller. what? the scsi-2 fast,wide spec has much more bandwidth than any stupid vlbus ide crap.... stop this thread now, its just cluttering up bandwidth. if you want to read about scsi vs ide just pay a visit to you local usenet archive. the best scsi-2 fast,wide,etc is clearly faster than any the best ide drive. all the response given are based upon personal experience with 1 or 2 drives. you can't judge such completely different interfaces. ide has the low cost adavantage + a descent performance. scsi has the ability for super high capacity expandibility and speed. neither one is better in all cases. if you don't belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc-week in whihc they tested vlbus, eisa and isa busmastering cards. send flames to /dev/null..... * scott mace internet: smace@nyx.cs.du.edu * * emace@tenet.edu * 
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 |> i have an old 3com ethernet card (pc at bus) that came out of a apollo |> workstation. i'm trying to identify it in order to use it on a pc. |> the assembly number is 4008-00 rev 2 and it is a 16 bit card, circa |> 1985. it has an aui port as well as a bnc coax connection. it has |> selectable address for the bios, io, dma, and irq locations via berg |> jumpers. it also appears to have a intel 80186 processor on board, |> presumably for buffering. |> the ethernet chip appears to be an intel 82586, a 48 pin dip package. is |> this chip an equivalent to the 8390 used in some cards? there is also |> a 68 pin plcc chip, called a link+ |> please e-mail as i don't think this is of general interest. my least favorite last line of a post. um, it is of general interest. as i prepare to retire 22 apollos myself, i'm looking for ways to recycle the useful parts. mike simon simon@moscow.uidaho.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60302">
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 when i changed my motherboard i had a lot of trouble getting led,spkr,turbo,turboswitch,hdd,klck,rst, connectors correctly reconnected. for example turbo switch had three wires and the motherboard connection only two pins... and so on. does anyone know a solution to this. do i need to rewire the connectors or what is the best way to approach this. it is somewhat frustrating. i got it to work somehow but my turbo switch doesn't work at all. i just put replaced the motherboard in a system and had similar questions. my 2 cents worth: the speaker connector should have two wires going to the speaker. a speaker being a coil, it's bidirectional and makes no difference which way you attach. turbo switch. there are three wires to control how you want turbo to become active- with the switch pushed in or the switch out. i think the middle wire is common. use an ohm meter to figure out which wire connects with the common wire when the switch is pushed in, and which two wires are connected when the switch is out. place the appropriate two wires on the turbo berg connector of the motherboard. led's: (turbo and hd) led's are uni directional. depending which way the wires are attached the led will not light. on my ami motherboard, if the turbo switch wires are not attached to the berg connector on the board, the board will power up in default in turbo mode. if your motherboard is like that... just attace the led wires to the board. if the led doesn't light, power off, reverse the connectors and try again. it should work. if it does, then attach the turbo switch to the board. hope this helps. dan moyer dan.moyer@columbiasc.ncr.com 
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 i would also like an explanation of this. if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt 1 can share an irq, please do so. i think it's simply because dos doesn't use the irq for anything. os/2 does, so with that you can't share the irq. that is correct. in dos you can use irq 7 for your sb.you can't do that under os/2 because it uses irq 7 for the printer 
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 the partitions take up disk space, having 3 or 4 partition will cost somewhere between 4-8 meg of hard disk space, if you can afoord this luxury more power to you, its your choice. where does all this disk space go? the dos partition table is fixed length and every hard disk carries one. what is useing this lost 4-8mb? if i remember right, the partition table is allocated an entire cylinder. to find out how much it takes up, you need to calculate: heads * sectors * 512 also, if you create an extended partition, there is a second 'partition' in there for the logical drives. i think the original respondent (guy dawson?) was refering to something much more elementary. every partition (whether it is the entire disk or not) has two fats and an initial directory. if you have a small disk (50 meg or less), i would recommend that it remain a single partition. unless you have some other consideration. if you have a large disk (greater than 200 meg), multiple partitions can make sense. mike lipsie (work) mlipsie@ca.merl.com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory (home) mikel@dosbears.uucp 
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 how can one tell which prong of your basic chip is number 20? i realize there is a chunk of the chip missing so that one can orient it correctly. so using that hole as a guide, how can i count the prongs of the chip to find #20? please help. | \ | \ ren hoek | | | | internet: ren@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu _\ ^ _/ "it is not i who am crazy... it is i who am mad!!!" 
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 ites: a hard drive with xt-type controller can be added, but i recommend not trying full -height 5 1/4" hard drive, as i have run into trouble with the 63.5w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters. one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a 63 watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc, you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed, but it manages. when booting is finished, plug in your floppy drive, now it will work. (ok i know this is not very user friendly, maybe you are better off buying a 486-66 with 300 watt power supply or something like that) the newer the drive, the less problem you will have. the old ten and fifteen meg full heights were power hogs, but i have over twenty units that i set up running flawlessly with half height drives and/or hard cards. dao4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (don) 
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 thought i'd post this as well as e-mail it, just in case anyone else is interested in this info..... hello, my question is could someone e-mail me the names of manufactures of the 16550 and predecsor uarts. i have only seen them refered to by number, however i would like to find a technical manual for these ics. any where i can find out the technical specs for these uarts would be appreciated: prefereably the 16450 as well as the 16550 however one will do. i suggest that you go direct to the original (and preferred...best quality) source for all of this, just as you would (at least, should) for the chips themselves: national semiconductor. you can reach them at 1-800-272-9959. they no longer package the data sheets in a book, as they did when i got mine, but you can get them as individual sets of data sheets. you want, as a minimum, the following: *) 2 sets of data sheets: *) ns16450/ins8250a/ns16c450/ins82c50a *) ns16550af *) 2 application notes (yes, get these!): *) an-491 the ns16550a: uart design and application considerations *) an-493 a comparison of the ins8250, ns16450 and ns16550af series of uarts both of the application notes i listed have proven to be at least as valuable as the data sheets themselves (more, actually). an-491, in particular, is an exceptionally well-written application note that goes into detail about how and why the 16550 does what it does, and how best to take advantage of it. btw, they send these out free, as long as you don't abuse it. --jim #include <std_disclaimer.h> 73 de n5ial (/4) internet: jim@n5ial.mythical.com | j.graham@ieee.org icbm: 30.23n 86.32w amateur radio: n5ial@w4zbb (ft. walton beach, fl) amtor selcal: nial e-mail me for information about kamterm (host mode for kantronics tncs). 
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 : >>point of view, why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi- : >>tasking? data is data, and it could be anywhere on the drive. can : >>scsi find it faster? can it get it off the drive and into the computer : >>faster? does it have a better cache system? i thought scsi was good at : >>managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached. if we are : >>only talking about a single drive, explain why scsi is inherently : >>faster at managing data from a hard drive. : >ide: integrated device electronics : > currently the most common standard, and is mainly used for medium sized : > drives. can have more than one hard drive. asynchronous transfer: ~5mb/s max. : why don't you start with the spec-sheet of the isa bus first? : you can quote scsi specs till you're blue in the face, but if they : exceed the isa bus capability, then what's the point? who said isa was necessary? eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars (e.g. a new pc's worth of money ) in . : who says ide is limited to 5 megs/sec? what about vlb-ide? does anyone : know how they perform? you didn't read to carefully. vlb-ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide. if transfer rate is limited by ide, whether it's interfaced to isa, eisa or vlb matters not. : >so at its lowest setting scsi-2 interface in asynchronous scsi-1 mode averages : >the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode. in full scsi-2 mode : >it blows poor ide out the window, down the street, and into the garbage can. : as implimented on what system? on mine, for one thing. scsi blows ide out of the water, hands down. if ide has better throughput, why isn't it used on workstations and file : >the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put : >rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi-2 comes from. not : >the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the : >scsi-2 through put. : given the original question (scsi used only as a single hard drive : controller), is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do : at least 5, maybe 10 megs/sec for the scsi choice to make any sence? : what does a 200-400 meg 5 megs/sec scsi drive cost? no, that's the nice thing -- on a multitasking os, scsi can use both drives at once. i've got unix loaded on one of my pcs (along with windogs) and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time. it's pretty ugly. i just bought at quantum 240 for my mac at home. i paid $369 for it. i haven't seen ide drives cheaper. : the original cga cart back in '84 was $300. i think the original ega card : (or pga?) was $800. scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down : in price, mainly because we're talking about pc's and not sun's or sparc : or sgi or (name your favorite unix workstation). that is, after millions : of pc buying decisions over the years, scsi has had plenty of time to : come down in price. no, actually, we're talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc. if they had a common (read: easily implemented) method of adding scsi to a pc (like as in a sun or mac), then you'd find scsi the connection medium of choice. : i won't argue that the scsi standard makes for a good, well implimented : data highway, but i still want to know why it intrinsically better : (than ide, on an isa bus) when it comes to multi-tasking os's when : managing data from a single scsi hard drive. on a single drive, scsi is more expensive. but, you bought your pc for expandibility, so, you'd want to add more drives or whatever. the following are why i find scsi intrinsically better than ide: a (partial?) list: 1. you can add many different types of devices and access them 2. a scsi device works on many different machines (i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi -- hook them up and away they go) 3. scsi devices work together better than ide devices. for instance, recently, i added an older connor 100 meg ide to a maxtor 212 meg ide. the connor *must* be setup as the slave. it will work no other way. on scsi, you set the address, check the termination, plug it in, and away it goes. 4. i have a problem with ide's mutual exclusion - i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c: to drive d: is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c: to d: on a scsi system. under a multitasking os, this is very noticable, as many things can be going on at once. one neat thing that i've noticed lately (a fringe benefit) has been the ability to add older (almost dead) drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem -- we've got a bunch of almost dead 20 meg drives that i've added to my pc. i've now got the interface full, but, it does allow me to have 4 20 meg drives, 1 240 meg drive, 1 tape drive, and 1 105 meg drive all on the same card. simply put, scsi is handier than ide. no mysterious jumpers to figure out. you can't go against nature, because when you do, greg shaw go against nature, it's part of nature too. shaw@feanor.xel.com love & rockets uunet!csn!xel.com!shaw 
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 : >what does a 200-400 meg 5 megs/sec scsi drive cost? : since the quadra is the only mac able to deal with 5mb/s and hard drives start : at 160mb i have no idea. : for the mac i have the following {these are all external} : 20mb $299 {$15/mb} : 52mb $379 {$7.3/mb} : 80mb $449 {$5.63/mb} : 120mb $569-$639 {$4.75-$5.33/mb : 210mb $979-$1029{$4.67-$4.90/mb} : 320mb $1499-$1549 {$4.68-$4.84/mb} : 510mb $1999-$2119 ($3.92-$4.31/mb} : etc i thought you might want the latest prices: as of macweek 4/12/93: meg: int ext 20m - couldn't find one available. 42m - $159 $219 85m - $199 $269 127 - $279 $349 170 - $299 $359 all above are quantum, low profile (1") 3.5" drives 240 - $369 $449 525 - $899 $979 1225- $1499 $1569 - the last three are quantum 1/2 height 3.5" drives. [ bunch o stuff deleted ] : scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking os were the : standard for the most part. hear, hear. you can't go against nature, because when you do, greg shaw go against nature, it's part of nature too. shaw@feanor.xel.com love & rockets uunet!csn!xel.com!shaw 
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 i have a conner-disk model cp30061g (200mb ??) with no info at all. the only thing i know is that is normally used with compaq-machines. please, send me information on switch-settings, geometry and so on. it looks like a normal ide-disk but is it possible to use it with a standard ide-controller?? -- michael michael thurbin sommarvagen 1 phone: +46 (0)47021340 s-352 37 vaxjoe fax: +46 (0)47048978 
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 hi! i got hold of an old zenith 286 laptop with model# zwl-183-45 the hard-disk is dead but the rest seems to work. i took the zenith apart and found a very strange disk for wich i now try to replace. the disk is marked jvc, model jd3824r00-1. has anyone any specs. on this disk or suggestion where i can find it or a cheap replacement for it. thanks for your help. -- michael michael thurbin (michael@pcmith.rks.se) michael thurbin sommarvagen 1 phone: +46 (0)47021340 s-352 37 vaxjoe fax: +46 (0)47048978 
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 i'd like to add a second s3 based video card to my system. does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one? all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other. probably just a configurable address would do it. for what it's worth (i haven't confirmed it), a diamond tech-rep told me that all s3-based video cards use port addresses 0x2e0 and 0x2e8. if this is true, it appears that you cannot use more than one s3 card in your system. lance hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) yes, that is a '%' (percent sign) in my network address. all statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter. 
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 is there a faq on cyrix 486dlc? could anyone please repost it or email to me, if i missed it? thanks in advance. ... alexander poylisher, internet: apoylis@inode.com; fidonet: 1:2603/106 wave/qwk v2.12 þ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60367">
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 : why don't you start with the spec-sheet of the isa bus first? : you can quote scsi specs till you're blue in the face, but if they : exceed the isa bus capability, then what's the point? who said isa was necessary? eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars (e.g. a new pc's worth of money ) in . then don't complain (maybe it wasn't you) that scsi was so expensive on pc's because all we've had until a year or two ago was the isa bus. (ie no one buys scsi for isa because isa is slow) are you saying that scsi on an isa bus is not an automatic winner when compared to ide? you didn't read to carefully. vlb-ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide. if transfer rate is limited by ide, whether it's interfaced to isa, eisa or vlb matters not. i get different transfer rates out of my ide when i change my isa bus speed. on mine, for one thing. scsi blows ide out of the water, hands down. if ide has better throughput, why isn't it used on workstations and file ide is just a variant of the old ibm- mfm at controller. (at least that's how it looks from a software point of view). it was never meant to be an all-encompassing protocal/standard to be implimented across different is there any argument that ide can (or can't) transfer data from the ide drive at least as fast as the drive is able to provide the data? are scsi versions of ide drives able to deliver higher sustained transfer rates to their scsi interface (because of a higher rpm platter, different arrangement of heads, etc?)? : given the original question (scsi used only as a single hard drive : controller), is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do : at least 5, maybe 10 megs/sec for the scsi choice to make any sence? : what does a 200-400 meg 5 megs/sec scsi drive cost? no, that's the nice thing -- on a multitasking os, scsi can use both drives at once. i've got unix loaded on one of my pcs (along with windogs) and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time. it's pretty ugly. if data is going from one drive to another, and if scsi has the ability to perform that transfer without the data having to go through the cpu or main memory, then yes, that is the optimal way to do it. as far as i know, ide can't do that. but when the cpu wants data from both drives (data to be stored in main memory) are you saying that scsi can grab data from both drives at the same time *and* store/transfer that data to main memory also at the same time? working off 1 irq and 1 dma channel on an isa (or whatever) bus? i just bought at quantum 240 for my mac at home. i paid $369 for it. i haven't seen ide drives cheaper. a friend of mine just got a maxtor 245 meg ide drive for $320. (that's 245 million bytes, or 234 mega-bytes). with the basic $20 interface, he gets close to 1 meg/sec transfer on his 286-20. does your figure include a few hundred $$$ for scsi drivers? no, actually, we're talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc. if they had a common (read: easily implemented) method of adding scsi to a pc (like as in a sun or mac), then you'd find scsi the connection medium of choice. so you're saying that scsi would have been the default interface type, considering that the vast majority of pc's don't have cd-rom drives or tape backups or etc? that most pc's only have (or had) 1 hard drive and run dos? that scsi hard drives cost a lot more than mfm or rll drives at the time? (and how common were scsi drives under 80 megs 4 to 10 years ago?) there's a lot more than the lack of a common interface card that prevented scsi from becoming the connection medium of choice. : i won't argue that the scsi standard makes for a good, well implimented : data highway, but i still want to know why it intrinsically better : (than ide, on an isa bus) when it comes to multi-tasking os's when : managing data from a single scsi hard drive. on a single drive, scsi is more expensive. but on that point, is it faster? this is what all this is about. do you get more performance for the money. for all the people that will only have a single hard drive in their system (regardless of the os) will the scsi choice really give them more performance than ide? but, you bought your pc for expandibility, so, you'd want to add more drives or whatever. true, but expandibility can also start on the bus, which means the option is there for cd-rom drives or tape backups that run off their own cards. 1. you can add many different types of devices and access them no argument. this is always held up to the first time scsi buyer as the best reason. but how many scsi devices will the first time scsi buyer eventually acquire? again does it make sense to go scsi for a single hard drive system? 2. a scsi device works on many different machines (i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi -- hook them up and away they go) with all the postings on the scsi i or ii specs, are you really sure that pc and apple scsi hard drives are compatible? and even if they are, is the data accessible from either machine (ie are there no formatting/ partitioning or file table differences?) is it really plug'n'play? 3. scsi devices work together better than ide devices. for instance, recently, i added an older connor 100 meg ide to a maxtor 212 meg ide. the connor *must* be setup as the slave. it will work no other way. on scsi, you set the address, check the termination, plug it in, and away it goes. so the c: drive on the connor becomes a logical d: drive to dos. is this really a problem? 4. i have a problem with ide's mutual exclusion - i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c: to drive d: is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c: to d: on a scsi system. under a multitasking os, this is very noticable, as many things can be going on at once. after having two ide drives in my system for temporary file transfers, i have never seen any differences when switching between drives, nor have i ever seen any differences when transfering files between drives or to/from the same drive. one neat thing that i've noticed lately (a fringe benefit) has been the ability to add older (almost dead) drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem -- we've got a bunch of almost dead 20 meg drives that i've added to my pc. i've now got the interface full, but, it does allow me to have 4 20 meg drives, 1 240 meg drive, 1 tape drive, and 1 105 meg drive all on the same card. that is nice (as long as the power supply can keep up). i do believe that there is the possibility for up to 4 ide drives on a pc. simply put, scsi is handier than ide. no mysterious jumpers to figure out. but what about "mysterious" (and expensive) drivers to figure out? at least ide doesn't require drivers that consume precious conventional (dos) memory. 
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 i'm thinking about getting a toshiba 3401 cd-rom and hooking it up through the scsi port on a media vision pro audio spectrum sound board. does anybody have this configuration out there? if so, does it work? for anybody in general who has the toshiba 3401 cd-rom drive, have you had any hadware problems? door not opening, scratched disks, door not closing (getting stuck or not closing all the way), cd holder jamming and any other cd related problems. i have one and it is my favorite cd-rom drive so far. i also have a nec-74 and have had experience with several other drives (various phillips drives) the 3401 is faster than the nec, i like its door better (the nec needs 2 hands), the xa handling (the nec needs to be re-booted to go from xa to rom while the 3401 does it on the fly), all in all i am seriously considering replacing my nec with another toshiba. 
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 once in a while you have to put in a good word for something that works well. i have had no problems with my toshiba 3401. it works very well with dos and os/2. for os/2, you don't need to load any special drivers. the installation will detect that it is a toshiba drive and you are done. btw, it's also very fast! | carlos rimola-sarti | email: rimola@csisdn.com | | connective strategies, inc. | car@btr.com | | isdn pri connectivity | phone: 415-903-2585 | 
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 i won't argue that the scsi standard makes for a good, well implimented data highway, but i still want to know why it intrinsically better (than ide, on an isa bus) when it comes to multi-tasking os's when managing data from a single scsi hard drive. i have been following this thread and figured i'd throw in my two cents... the amiga zorro ii bus is comparable with the isa bus (7.16 vs 8.33 mhz). except for the fact that it's superior in just about every way to the isa bus. the amiga has had a pre-emptative multi-tasking os since '85 and can operate with 1 mb ram! scsi is used almost exclusively on these systems. except for the new systems that now ship only with ide controllers. toodlepip! marc 'em. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60377">
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 my fiance has a pc-junior and wants to upgrade to a full 386. does anyone know if we could use the monitor it came with on a new machine? i heard it's mcga or ega, but not sure which. also, does it use cards, so we can use the drive controller, floppy, etc? thanks for the help! bryan welch amateur radio: n0sfg internet: europa@vnet.ibm.com (best), bwelch@scf.nmsu.edu everything will perish save love and music.--scots gaelic proverb disclaimer: it's all opinion. everything. so there. 
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 hi world, i want to buy a spirit ii 14400 data/fax modem (made in u.s.a.). have anyone heard about it or using it? what is it's performance? is it stable or not? please give me some advice. in addition, i heard a news from local distributor that a new 28800baud ccitt rom (the distributor said it will be the new ccitt standard.) for this modem will be produced at the end of this year. after replaced the old rom by this 28800 rom, this spirit ii can transfer data at 28800baud without any hardware alternation. is this new true and possible? would the telephone line really able to transfer at such high speed? please give me some advice. at last, can anyone tell me how to contact with the central dealer quickcomm. inc.? (i am not sure whether it in u.s.a. or not.) please leave me a e-mail. thank you very much. leung (from hong kong university) 
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 since the mac uses only scsi-1 for hard drives yes the "figure includes a hundred $$$ for scsi drivers" this is sloppy people and dumb. what group is this? this is not a mac group. ok once again with the scsi spec list: why the spec list again? we are talking scsi on a pc, not on a mac or a unix box. and we are talking isa bus, or possibly eisa or vlb. this isin't comp.periphs.scsi. tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa (or eisa or vlb) bus. theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate. i'm sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the 40 megs/sec of scsi xyz wide'n'fast, but the pc isin't one of if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi-1 or scsi-2 or scsi over all {scsi-1 and scsi-2} it does make a difference. well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc's would have built in scsi ports by now. 
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 beta. support for the buslogic cards is not included with os/2 2.0 any longer. why not? this is rather disappointing... if you wish to install the beta from the cd/rom, you will need to rem out the adaptec device drivers, as they have a nasty tendency to crash the buslogic cards when os/2 attempts to use them. (thanks adaptec!) yep. that's cause the latest(and presumably all future) adaptec drivers look for the string "adaptec" or something to that effect in the cards bios. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60390">
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 since the losers that sold me the hard disk for my computer are so generous, i need the info to set this drive from master to slave. any help would be greatly appreciated. please reply via e-mail. incidentally, avoid purchasing a computer from acs in endicott, ny. * four out of five electrons prefer holes for their mutual * * annhiliation needs. boycott sierra. ignore anybody who * * purports to be a serious windows user. support new makers * * of hardware and software. buy canadian music. quit smoking. * * take up running. fm synthesis is the cga of audio. * * jks4675@ritvax.isc.rit.edu * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60391">
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 misc.entrepreneurs,misc.wanted,pnw.forsale,uw.pc.ibm,seattle.forsale,uw. .forsale,misc.forsale, misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.co omputers.other, distribution: world followup-to: reply-to: yuri@atmos.washington.edu organization: i need 100 simms and 100 sipps 1mb, but price should be around $17-20/piece. i am waiting for an offer. yuri yulaev 6553, 38th ave ne seattle wa 98115 (206) 524-2806,524-9547 (home) (206) 685-3793 (work) (206) 524-7218 (fax) internet: yuri@atmos.washington.edu uucp: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!yuri 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60392">
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 wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (wayne smith) write: since the mac uses only scsi-1 for hard drives yes the "figure includes a hundred $$$ for scsi drivers" this is sloppy people and dumb. what group is this? this is not a mac group. nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it. to whit: i just bought at quantum 240 for my mac at home. i paid $369 for it. i haven't seen ide drives cheaper. to which you responded: a friend of mine just got a maxtor 245 meg ide drive for $320. (that's 245 million bytes, or 234 mega-bytes). with the basic $20 interface, he gets close to 1 meg/sec transfer on his 286-20. does your figure include a few hundred $$$ for scsi drivers? to which i correctly pointed out the following: since the mac uses only scsi-1 for hard drives yes the "figure includes a hundred $$$ for scsi drivers" this is sloppy people and dumb. as i said this is sloppy and dumb {you should resounded by discounting the mac not giving "maxtor 245 meg ide drive for $320" example. by giving an example you give the implied consent that for mac info to be included in the scsi discusion.} ok once again with the scsi spec list: why the spec list again? we are talking scsi on a pc, not on a mac or a unix box. and we are talking isa bus, or possibly eisa or vlb. ok i will do this v e r y s l o w l y so you can understand reguardless of whether it is a mac or a pc scsi-1 and scsi-2 are different from each other as is asynchronous and synchronous scsi-1. all of these have different speeds and costs. lumping them all together as 'scsi' is dumb and sloppy. take again the quote later on as an example of the problem in the pc world {the spec list was so that you knew where the numbers were coming from in the article. it shows the article is correct in it staments about scsi but not consitant}. this isin't comp.periphs.scsi. with the way this thread has gone how do you tell :-). tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa (or eisa or vlb) bus. already gave them. you keep deleting them! so here are the specs on everybody again {with some added info}: scsi-1 {scsi-1 controler chip} asynchronous range: 0-3mb/s synchronous range: 0-5mb/s both common to the pc world; difference is mainly in software not hardware. scsi-1 {scsi-2 controller chip; also called scsi-2 (8-bit)}: 4-6mb/s with 10mb/s burst. this is advertised as scsi-2 in byte 4/93:159 for the pc and at these speeds.{not the mac, the pc.} {i have not seen the following for either the mac or the pc} scsi-2 {16-bit/wide or fast mode}: 8-12mb/s with 20mb/s burst scsi-2 {32-bit/wide and fast}: 15-20mb/s with 40mb/s burst on the other interfaces let dxb132@psuvm.psu.edu speak: ide ranges from 0-8.3mb/s. asynchronous range: 0-5mb/s {infered from byte 4/93:159} synchronous range: 0-8.3mb/s. esdi is always 1.25mb/s (although there are some non-standard versions) theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate. i'm sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the 40 megs/sec of scsi xyz wide'n'fast, but the pc isin't one of note that i also give the average through put for scsi-2 which holds true a mac or ibm/pc clone with the correct hardware and software. and since pc adversizements are using theoretical performance figures why cannot we? if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi-1 or scsi-2 or scsi over all {scsi-1 and scsi-2} it does make a difference. well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc's would have built in scsi ports by now. with pc articles like the following it is obvious that the problem is not with scsi but with the people who report it! {like you.} look at the inconsitant use of scsi in the below quote: (my comments in {}) "although scsi is twice as fast as esdi,{this is asynchronous scsi-1 with a scsi-1 chip} 20% faster than ide..." {this is both asynchronous scsi-1 with a scsi-2 chip and 8-bit scsi-2} pc magazine april 27, 1993:29 the article is confused, not scsi. the term is a mess from inconsitant use not because the interface itself is a mess. scsi means "the set of scsi interfaces composed of scsi-1 and scsi-2" not 'scsi-1' as some people want to use it. to read consitantly the quote should read: {asynchronous scsi-1 with a scsi-1 chip} "although asynchronous scsi-1 is twice as fast as esdi, one third the speed of ide..." or {asynchronous scsi-1 with a scsi-2 chip or 8-bit scsi-2} "although scsi-1 with a scsi-2 chip and 8-bit scsi-2 are eight times as fast as esdi, 20% faster than ide..." note the nonuse of 'scsi' by itself. this eliminates ambaguity. if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi-1 or scsi-2 or scsi over all {scsi-1 and scsi-2}. lumping everything into scsi as scsi-1 is sloppy, wrong, and dumb. inconsitant scsi-1 and scsi-2 usage is also a problem. clean it up now or have a mess like svga was several years ago because everybody and his uncle slapped 'scsa' an their own monitor inteface {scsi is standarized unlike svga was years ago except in terminaology.} 
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 anybody use cd speedway out there? is it as good as they say? i hate waiting around for my cd to finish loading the next level in wc and the how much memory does it eat up? _______ ________ ________ "small nose, loose girls, no nipples, (.|.) / ___/ / _____/ / __ / iczer curls!" -=- gerard pinzone ).( / ___/ / /____ / __ / gpinzone@tasha.poly.edu ( v ) /______/ /_______/ /__/ /__/ join the eca wehrmacht! kill cm! \|/ 
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 ok, i'll try one more time with this one. if anyone out there has any information on microscience hard drives and how to set the jumpers (and where they are?) for master/slave configurations. i will gladly accept any info, as i have a 110m'er sitting in my room collecting dust just waiting for me to install huge applications. :) thanks in advance. (and yes, i regulary check the ide harddisk spec that is posted here.) -= adam cheal =- i3y092@rick.cs.ubc.ca 
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 i saw the following computer in a store and wanted to know if this is a good computer or does someone see something wrong with it. i also would like to [stuff deleted] leading edge- model pc4170e * intel 486sx/25 mhz cpu * supports intel overdrive clock-doubling processors(what is this?) * upgradable to 486dx2/66 * 4 mb ram upgradable to 32 mb * 8 kb internal cache * 1.2 mb 5 1/4" & 1.44 mb 3.5" disk drives * 213 mb hard drive * 1024 x 768 vga video resolution * 1 mb video ram 256 colors * 6 available 16-bit isa expansion slots * one local bus socket (16-bit isa compatible) * 4 5.25" drive bays, 3 external * one 25-pin centronics type parallel port * 2 rs-232c serial ports (9 & 25 pin) * one 15-pin analog video connector * one ps/2 compatible mouse port * 200 watt power supply * 101 key keyboard and mouse included * software includes windows 3.1, dos 5.0, microsoft works for windows the store wants $1200 (without monitor) for this. is it a good price? thanks! i recently bought a leading edge 80386dx-33 <mini tower case> and everything works fine. leading edge seems to be a decent brand and what-not. i would tend to say that it is a decent deal. the only things you might want to be wary about is that my l.e. computer has a back-plane mounted motherboard. ie: the motherboard itself is a card that can be plugged in to a backplane. some people don't like these configurations. the second thing is that whoever set up my computer at the factory didn't really know what they were doing. the installed windows video driver didn't even take advantage of the svga card/monitor. look forward to configuring the system optimally | "anyone have a coat hanger? my brain itches." | impster@umcc.ais.org | "if i was a turnip, would i be revered and | charles budensiek | "worshipped like i would deserve to be?" | ph #: ask if you want it. 
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 is it possible to use an esdi-controller with hdd together with an ide-harddisk + controller in one isa-system? i've read stuff about secondary controllers. does this trick work? thanx in advance, monty@win.tue.nl i have the same question as guido. it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave ? i can definitily say that you can use an rll as master and ide as slave, as i have just upgraded my machine with a 200mb ide ( and custom controller mdl ci-1010 extended ide controller ) while maintaining my rll'd wren as master drive. the trick is the controller which supports up to 4 ide drives while coexisting with existing controllers ( mfm,rll,esdi,scsi ). so according to the documentation it should work with esdi, and i can assure you it works with rll. bruce powell email: bss_brucep@vd.seqeb.gov.au 
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 : okay, here is my configuration: : 80486-33 gateway 433c micronics isa : 12mb ram : wd212mb ide hd ( drive c: ) : st3144a 125mb ide hd ( drive d: ) : adaptec scsi 1542b controller, with scsi bios enabled : seagate st296n 80mb scsi drive : alrighty, when i boot up i get the adaptec bios message, but it says : something like: : "drive c: installed" : "drive d: installed" : "adaptec scsi bios not installed!" : and i can't get to the seagate drive. : i go into phoenixbios setup, remove the entry for drive d:, and boom, i can : access the seagate. is there a way to get two ide drives and the seagate : at the same time? i have aspi4dos.sys, but it just hangs the system. : brian there is a simple answer. if my memory serves me the scsi bios will only work as the first or second drive. any "built-in" drives e.g. ide are installed first and then when the scsi bios runs it will try to install as the next drive. but if there are already two drives, then no can do. the solution is simple: use the aspi4dos device driver and disable the scsi bios (as it is useless in your case). it works like a champ! i have seen a similar situation before. good luck gordon lang 
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 a quick look through the computer shopper gave the following companies that sell 20"+ monochrome monitors for less than $2000 (pc or ps/2 compatible): cornerstone technology, digital technology, hardware that fits, ibm, ikegami, image systems, nanao, radius, ran-ger technologies, sampo, samsung, sigma designs. most of these are single-scan monitors, which are useless for most pc users. i posted requests for information in other newsgroups which were mostly fruitless, but i have managed to track down two multisync grayscal monitors in the 17-21" range, one 20" and one 21". i am still looking into it, and i will post the results when i get more info. i am looking into a group purchase as well. -- |)aniel thumim dthumim@mit.edu 
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 i have a tseng labs video card that gives me problems when i do anything in super vga mode. checkit v3.0 reports a video page frame address error at page frame #7. what does this mean and how (if i can) could this be fixed? the card says et4000ax on it. 
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 can anybody please help me with information on the use of the bi-directional printer port. i have successfully used one on a toshiba laptop by enabling bit 0 of port 0x37f and controlling bit 7 of port 0x37a for the direction of data flow (ie "0" for output, "1" for input). the same code does not work on my desktop machine. i have heard that i might have to use bit 5 of port 0x37a, however this also does not work. for a parallel port i am using one of those ide super i/o cards and have been running a tape backup unit off it via a parallel to scsi converter so i am pretty sure that the printer port is bi-directional. any information would be greatly appreasiated. please post a reply here or email me on internet rick@cabsav.vut.edu.au richard muratti. * origin: custom programming bbs (3:632/341) 
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 in a previous article, limagen@hpwala.wal.hp.com () says: ok all you experts! need answer quick.386 machine ,1.44 floppy ; unable to write to a formated 720 disk.machine claims that disk is write protected,but it is not. note: it 'll read 720's with no problem. please e_mail or post. if the disk is not an hd-type disk, i.e. with the extra hole in the case opposite the normal write protect hole, the drive will not write to the disk. you can punch a similar hole with whatever is handy or buy a small device, a square hole puncher, for about $19.95...see the back pages of computer shopper magazine for it. to be brief, make the hole any way you can or no writing! andy nicola of course you should be able to write a dd 720kb disk without making any holes. 
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 subject says it all. please email soon. skcgoh@tartarus.uwa.edu.au 
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 i have a 486 machine with a 3.5" a: drive and a 5.25" b: drive. i want to swap them so 3.5" drive is a: what do i have to do? |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ david m. todd ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| |department of psychology, university of massachusetts, amherst, ma 01003 usa| |phone: 413/545-0158 ___ <david.todd@psych.umass.edu> ____ fax: 413/545-0996| 
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 but i still want to know why it intrinsically better (than ide, on an isa bus) when it comes to multi-tasking os's when managing data from a single scsi hard drive. a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory. ide also uses dma techniques. i believe floppy controller also uses dma, and most a/d boards also use dma. dma is no big deal, and has nothing to do directly with scsi. ide does not do dma. this is because it's like te pc at hard disk interface. the controller moves a sector to some buffer memory on the controller card, then the cpu moves the data from the buffer to main memory where it's needed. if ide doesn't work this way, then it's not heck, if ide used dma, then you'd hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than 16m ram not working with their ide drives. 16m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus, and if ide did dma there would be trouble. (btw, there are dma-enabling signals in the ide cable spec, but the last report i heard was that they are never implemented, because it would require a different kind of ide adapter and different drivers.) richard krehbiel richk@grebyn.com os/2 2.0 will do for me until amigados for the 386 comes along... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60431">
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 : i have a 5 1/4" drive as drive a. how can i make the system boot from : my 3 1/2" b drive? [intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted] i have ami bios, i have poked around the bios but haven't tried this but somewhere it says boot: a:;c: i would assume that you could probably slip in a b: althoug a.) i haven't tried it and b.) don't mess with your cmos unless you know what your doing!! i hate to burst your bubble but you cannot "slip in a b:" to that particular ami bios setting. that setting only allows you to set the *boot order* of the floppy a: with respect to the primary hd c:, i.e., check a: first, then c: or check c:, then a:. gordon lang mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu paul yee yee@nimios.eng.mcmaster.ca 
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 i've been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine to arrive in the mail. there seems to be a lot of complaints about minor alignment problems with the mx15f. one article contained a comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec (1/4"). that figure (1/4") for image rotation would seem to be a little high... on my nec 5fg the specs call for no greater than 3mm (0.12"). well, my monitor arrived last night and, sure enough, it has a very noticable barrel distortion. it's not dramatic, but it is there and it is especially noticable when the image doesn't fill the entire screen. the fact that it is worse on the right side doesn't help matters. what i'm trying to find out is if these minor imperfections are the norm or are most of their monitors perfect? i don't want to send it back and get one with the same or an even worse problem. does the factory consider this kind of thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment? i can't speak for mag innovision but as far as nec is concerned, they are adjusted to "factory-spec" before leaving the central usa distribution point (ma) for the eastern canadian market. now, here's the key: nec *knows* that the >=15" monitors' adjustments are very sensitive to shipping over distances (with all the bumps, rough handling, and such) and therefore *expect* and (at least in theory) *require* that the local *distributor* (not dealer) have it adjusted at the *local* service centre (bull hn information systems in toronto) before sale. this is the correct and probably only way of having any chance of receiving a "perfect" monitor (the definition of "perfect" seems to depend on how picky one is, in my case quite :). are other netters just living with these kind of imperfections? i, for one, was not willing to accept what i considered a substandard monitor and, after two months of wrangling and direct contact with nec, finally received a satisfactorily adjusted monitor (not perfect, imho, but a major improvement over what the dealer and distributor were trying convince me was "normal"). the short answer is no, don't accept these "imperfections" as "normal" because for the premium one pays for the larger screen monitors, one has a right to expect higher quality, and if you're persistent, you'll receive it. : comments and opinions are mine - not bnr's : : doug adcock adcock@bnr.ca : : bell-northern research research triangle park, nc : paul yee yee@nimios.eng.mcmaster.ca 
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 i have an old tandon type modem (that's all the info i have apart from the fact that it is black!). does anyone have any info about this modem or upgrading it ??? reply by e-mail please to cdw@dcs.ed.ac.uk. = chris - e-mail: cdw@dcs.ed.ac.uk or c.walton@ed or p92019@cplab.ph.ed.ac.uk = = tel.: 031-667-9764 or 0334-74244 (at weekends) = = write: 4/2 romero place, edinburgh, eh16 5bj. = finagle's fourth law: once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it only makes it worse. = chris - e-mail: cdw@dcs.ed.ac.uk or c.walton@ed or p92019@cplab.ph.ed.ac.uk = = tel.: 031-667-9764 or 0334-74244 (at weekends) = = write: 4/2 romero place, edinburgh, eh16 5bj. = 
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 [stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated] 8mhz clock, 16 bit width, 5mb/sec. if ide speed come from ida where does the 8.3mb/s sighted for ide come from? scsi is not complex. it is just the way the industry uses and talks about it. there are three key differences in scsi; the controller chip, the port, and the software. that is it. let us look as scsi in from this stand point. scsi-1: asynchronous and synchronous modes {software scsi driver only} asynchronous is slower then synchronous mode {only 0-3mb/s vs. 0-5mb/s} synchronous speeds can be reached by most scsi-1 divices with a rewrite of the software driver {as is the case for the mac quadra.} scsi-2 {8-bit}: this is the main source for the confusion. this differs from scsi-1 only in the controler chip in most machines. in the mac and some pcs this is called 'fast scsi-1' because it uses scsi-1 ports and software drivers and can produce scsi-2 speeds through scsi-1 inspite of this even in the slower asynchronous mode. average speed in asynchronous scsi-1 mode 4-6mb/s with 8mb/s{see in both quadras and higher end pcs} synchronous mode just allows a higher burst rate {10/mb/s} scsi-2 {16-bit}: two versions-wide/fast. wide scsi-2 requires two things over 8-bit scsi-2: a scsi-2 software driver and a wide scsi port on the machine and the external device. fast scsi-2 also requires two things over 8-bit scsi-2: scsi-2 driver software and that the recieving devise support 16-bit fast scsi-2. speed of both is the same: 8-12mb/s with 20mb/s burst. scsi-2 {32-bit}: also know as wide and fast scsi. over 8-bit scsi-2 this requires: scsi-2 driver software, wide scsi-2 port, and that the recieving devices also have a 32-bit mode scsi-2 chip. as expected this is very expencive. speed: 15-20mb/s with 40mb/s bursts as i said simple. seven versions of scsi seperated by software, the controler chip, and the port. standarize the software and it drops to only five versions of scsi seperate by only hardware {the chip and the port} 
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 i am looking for information about this drive. switch settings, geometry..etc. conner cp3204f please reply via e-mail. many thanks in advance! nsl@doe.carleton.ca 
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 in a previous article, rrn@po.cwru.edu (robert r. novitskey) says: just a qestion for all you pc-er's out there. will the upcoming pentium systems be compatible with current simms and vlb cards? any info would be helpful. i would just like to know before i plunk my $ on new hardware. well, it all depends on the motherboard implimentation. i'm sure someone will make a vlb motherboard that takes 1x9 simms and uses a pentium processor. i'm also sure that there will be some motherboards that won't. 
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 i have a few enquiries about pc's and compatibles in general.. some software others hardware orientated.. (probably the wrong newsgroup .... as everyone claims..) anyway.. 1) does any one happen to have the board jumper details for a trident 8900 svga graphics card (1mb) or even what the dip switches do on the end.. mine already works fine (albeit slow) and after having blown up a monitor i found out which switch controlled the interlace/non interlace facility.. but i'm curious as to why there are 8 dip switches on the card with apparantly little use.. 2) secondly, does anyone know why commodore had to be so crazed in their design of the pc-40 motherboard with respect to the ram.. (ie 512 + 512 or 640 +0k) ?? 3) can anyone supply pin details for the expansion ports for a pc (8 or 16 bit ) .. or even a sample circuit to cause an irq when a button is pressed... (yeah i know its a piece of cake.. i'm lazy 8) 4) software wise.. anyone care to divulge some tips on accessing expanded ram on a pc (from a program written in turbo c++).... for instance, using farcoreleft() and coreleft() return only memory available from the base 640k regardless of combinations of emm386 etc etc... what i want is to be able to use the ram above and beyond the 1mb boundary... i'm not certain whether farmalloc / new actually uses it anyway but i'll suspect not .. 5) also.. what half brained wit created dos so as not to be re-entrant?????? as a follow on, does anyone have any comments about the use of dos calls 0 to 0c from within a dos interrupt? ie will changing the stack size on entry be of use.. two articles i've read on the subject have given conflicting views... does anyone have any views on writing direct to screen memory in terms of portability? many thanks.. gotta go, bars closing soon 8) 
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 i don't know if this is an obvious question, but can any of the current batch of windows accelerator cards (diamond etc) be used to drive a monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync ( 5 bnc jacks altogether) connectors out the back?? i might be able to get ahold of a raster technologies 17" monitor (1510 ??)cheap and i was wondering if it was possible to connect it via an adapter (rgb to vga ??) to my gateway, would i need different drivers etc. mike scanlon please reply to scanlon@interlan.com you need a monitor cable that has a vga connector on one end and five bnc connectors on the other. i bought one from nanao when i bought the nanao monitor i use, which also has five bnc connectors. check with a computer store that sells good monitors. quite a few companies use that setup. 
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 i also reviewed a new nanao, the f550iw, which has just been released. what's the difference between the f550i and the new f550iw? i'm about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f550i upgrade. should i get the f550iw instead? mike yang silicon graphics, inc. mikey@sgi.com 415/390-1786 
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 i'm the proud owner of an ibm at without a battery. i know it hooks into jumper j21, but i need more info so i can replace it. what's its voltage? any suggestions for replacement? where can i get one? please respond to : grisch@uceng.uc.edu 
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 i have a quick question regarding the rockwell chipset that's`come out relatively recently--it supports v.32, v.32bis, v.42, group iii fax, and so on... however, i heard there are bugs in the chipset. i know someone that has a zoom 14.4 modem that uses the chipset, and he hasn't had a problem. what's the word on the chipset? is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell, or is it the rockwell chipset itself? and, if it is the rockwell chipset, what are the chances that if i buy one of these modems (using the rockwell chipset), that a) the bug will affect me, b) a rom change will fix/compensate for the bug? please send responses via email... --joe zbiciak im14u2c@cegt201.bradley.edu / im14u2c@camelot.bradley.edu joseph zbiciak im14u2c@camelot.bradley.edu [====disclaimer--if you believe any of this, check your head!====] nuke the whales! 
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 would someone please email me the pinout for a ps/2 6-pin mini din mouse port? i'm trying to make an adapter for a serial mouse, and the dealer who knows what adapter works with the mouse i bought doesn't have it in stock. i have several different adapters, but none of them make sense based on what sketchy information i have about the port (they have connections to "reserved" pins). bob nichols at&t bell laboratories rnichols@ihlpm.ih.att.com 
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 oh yeah, i just read in another newsgroup that the t560i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors.(the sony 1604s for example) and this is where the extra cost comes from. it is also where the high bandwidth comes from, and the fantastic image, and the large image size, etc, etc... i agree that the image is as sharp as it gets with these sony tubes, however in the 17" monitors using these tubes, the 2 annoying black lines on the top and bottom quarters of the tube, which are created due to the wires holding up the invar shadow mask, are quite annoying after a while. that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec 5fg (or now also available the nec 5fge - only difference, no accucolor ). any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec 5fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done (ie: about a week from now). tony gerardis @ mcgill university - computer science prefered account--------------- | the sun is the same in a relative way, gerardis@cs.mcgill.ca | but you're older however also available ------- | and shorter of breath and one day tgerardi@nyx.cs.du.edu | closer to death. -floyd gerardis@musocs.bitnet | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60460">
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 i am looking for a company that can make custom keys. for instance we need a key that says help, main menu, etc which we are going to use instead of f1,f2, f3 etc... can anyone point me to a company that does this. also do you have to have a special keyboard, or can i just pop off the old keys and pop in the new ones... thanks for the help jeff swartz 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60461">
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 [stuff deleted] a while. that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec 5fg (or now also available the nec 5fge - only difference, no accucolor ). any experiences or opinions from people who have used not only do you lose accucolor, you also had to give up 1280x1024 non-interlaced mode, the wider 135 mhz bandwidth and the mac and bnc inputs of the 5fg. personally i am not bothered at all by the two lines in trinitron tube. tony gerardis @ mcgill university - computer science stephen lau, elec. engineering, univ. of hawaii don't have my own account until grad. school starts (autumn 93) + death to fm synthesis! go gus! + 
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 i read about the development of eisa-2 some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci. however, i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than 16mb of ram, a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon. i recall that eisa-2 will support 64-bit transfer among other enhancements. is there such a standard being developed? bing ho bing@zinc.cchem.berkeley.edu university of california at berkeley 
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<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60467" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 heck, if ide used dma, then you'd hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than 16m ram not working with their ide drives. 16m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus, and if ide did dma there would be trouble. there would be no problems as long as the os didn't set up a dma transfer to an area above the 16 mb area (the dma controller probably can't be programmed that way anyways, so there probably isin't a problem with this) besides, like i said before, the fdd controller uses dma channel #2. and i don't yet believe that the hdd controllers (any of them, mfm, rll, etc) don't also use dma. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60469">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60469" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 this past winter i found myself spending a ridiculous amout of time in front of my computer. since my eyes were going berserk, i decided to shell out some serious money to upgrade from a 14" to a 17" monitor. i'm running 800x600 at 72 hz. my eyes are very grateful. however, i find myself using a smaller font with less eye strain. has anyone else had this kind of experience? i thought that small fonts were the culprit but it seems that flicker was my real problem. any comments? alec lee alee@cs.du.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60470">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60470" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i read about the development of eisa-2 some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci. however, i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than 16mb of ram, a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon. i recall that eisa-2 will support 64-bit transfer among other enhancements. is there such a standard being developed? very possibly, but if it's still going to be backwards compatible with the isa bus, it's going to be the same tripe that the current eisa implementation really is. from what i've seen, the pci bus will just be a new 32bit 33mhz intelligent bus (ie, bus controller takes care of interrupts and the like, not jumpers...) hopefully it'll get somewhere up there with the amiga zorro iii bus.... vl bus is a bit too much of a hack for my liking... toodlepip! marc 'em. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60471">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60471" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 please forgive me if this is faq. if there is source on this kind of info, please let me know. i just got a 286 station (around 21*16.5*7 in dimension), and i am thinking about upgrade it to a 486 or 386. the station has a power supply, two floppy disk drives, and the big case. i have sony 1304 monitor, syquest drive (mac), and maybe a cd-rom reader (mac) for it. here are the questions i have so far: 1) is there a 486 motherboard at this dimension that i could use the case? 2) the original owener has the controller for floppy drive and hard disk removed. can i use them to control these devices under 486? how much do i have to pay for a new controllers if the old ones won't work? 3) how can i make syquest (scsi) and cd-rom (scsi) work on this station? i heard that there is a cheap sound board that has scsi controller built-in? what's quality of this board? how much usually does a scsi control cost? is there any ftp sites that has syquest driver or cd-rom driver for the pc if i can have everything hooked up ok?4) what i want is a 486 motherboard, a sound board to make it a mpc- quality station. how much would it cost to do that? is it worth the hussle than just buy a new 486 station? btw, i need to buy a keyboard for it too. any input is welcome. thank you. peter liu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60474">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60474" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i recently decided to try using emm386.exe for a memory manager and when i tried to print to my printer in lpt1 from word55 i wouldn't work. it would send the linefeeds for the top margin and then the printer ready light would go off and stop working. i disabled emm386.exe and the problem went away. i would like to continue using emm386.exe if possible. i would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions!! please send them to arthur@u.washingt, arthur@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60476">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60476" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 they don't have a conflict because technically lpt1: does not use irq7!. the parallel printer processor (the actual number escapes me) contains a printer control register which enables the chip to transmit an interrupt to the interrupt controller as irq7, then onto the main processor as int 0x0f. by default the parallel printer processor does not enable it's interrupt line therefore no int 0x0f's will be sourced from the printer controller chip, thus enabling other devices to use the actual irq7. note, this applies to com ports also which by default do not route interrupts to the system bus, although com's software usually enable this feature as it make monitoring com port activity easier than polling the serial uart, thus probably getting the sound card slighty confused!. windows may be a different story.... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60477">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60477" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just got a problem, i have a cheapo 2400bps modem which i use to connect to my university, but i get too much garbage on the screen. i do know it's because the noise in the line (i can actually hear it). so my question is will an error correction protocol help to eliminate this garbage?, my modem doesn't have any of these on hardware, can a software implemented protocol do the trick? juan carlos leon jleon@scf.usc.edu | jcleon@ucs.usc.edu electrical & computer major | university computing services university of southern california los angeles, ca. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60478">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60478" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i can't imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with. its like leaving your lights tv, radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me.....nuts gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60480">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60480" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i would realy like to hear from someone that has one of these nanao t560i monitors that is driving it with a diamond speedstar 24x. with the 24x set up to run at its 58.1 khz 72.0hz output mode, and realy driving the hell out of the monitor. just woundering if the nanao t560i would fall apart with poor low capabilities like my (3) sony 1604s did with the 24x driving their balls off...sam gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60483">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60483" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 the jp5 on the speedstar 24x is for those systems with boot-up problems. if your system fails to boot-up proprtly, please pull off the jumper block from jp5. this will not affect the proformance of the speedstar 24x. this is what my manual says about jp5. i never knew that it was there but the card is a real ask kicker in my book. it beats the hell out of my junk sony 1604s to the point that i can't even use above 648x480 mode much...sam some times an upgrage turns out to be a big overkill, like driving a sony with a 24x that the monitor can't handle. or installing 60ns simms and then finding out that your mother board doesn't have a cmos wait state adjustment to take advantage of the new 60ns simms that you just bought! gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60485">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60485" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a wangtek tape controller card (revision e) that was used with the sytos backup system to take backups of a friend's system. that system has crashed and i'm attempting to restore it. unfortunately, the documentation for this ancient card has been lost in the mists of time, and i need to know the dma, irq and address for this card. can anyone suggest how i could determine these things? there is a bank of dip switches on the card which are set to: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 upupup upupup upup upup ------open---------- thanks for your time. this posting is definitive. bljeghbe'chugh vaj blhegh. wayne mcdougall :: keeper of the list of shows better than star trek(tm) :: ask me about the auckland festival of missions, 18-25 april, 1993 i always change my mind when new evidence is available. what method do you use? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60486">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60486" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 is it possible to have 2 sound blasters in 1 machine? would give your the equivalent of a sb pro but with stereo digitized sound. the way creative labs price pro's in oz, the price is equal. i suppose you could set the i/o addresses to 220 and 240h but what about the dma channels? any way what is this dma channel sharing hype? does it share the sb and hardisk dma channels or something more esoteric? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60493">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60493" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 : i'm in the market for all small (12x12 or so) digitizing tablet and would : like any comments. the main names i see are calcomp, summagraphics, and : kurta. what are the major differences? any particular preference? also : what should i look for and what should i avoid? thanks for any input : you can provide. : rithea hong : (r0h7630@tamuts.tamu.edu) * ville v. walveranta tel./fax....: (510) 420-0729 **** ** 96 linda ave., apt. #5 from finland: 990-1-510-420-0729 *** *** oakland, ca 94611-4838 (faxes automatically recognized) ** **** usa email.......: wil@shell.portal.com * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60496">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60496" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus. it actually slows down your system..... if you don't belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc-week in whihc they tested vlbus, eisa and isa busmastering cards. is vlb busmastering bad because it stops the processor fetching from external cache as well as main memory while the vlb card has the bus? how significant is the slowing effect? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60497">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60497" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi all, i would like to purchase cd-rom drive. the specs i would like to have is: * applicable to kodak multisession photo-cd * scsi(2) interface * compatible with adaptec-1542b * does not need any caddies * cheaper ( < $500 if possible) * double speeded i believe there are no drives satisfying all of the above condition, so i would like to know all of your opinion. the above conditions are sorted by my priority. i think nec cdr74-1/84-1 is a little bit expensive, but it does satisfy almost all of the above conditions. the problem is that i do not know the compatibility with 1542b. has someone succeeded to connect these nec drives to 1542b? i have heard a rumor that nec drive is incompatible with 1542b adapter. any suggestions are greatly appreciated. thanks in advance, kobayashi,masaoki (masaoki@tky.hp.com) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60499">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60499" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor. if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used. /thanx __ __ _ _ l \ / l ___ ( \/ ) max brante m88max@tdb.uu.se l l l l l / _ \ \ / l l\_/l l( (_) l / \ institutionen f|r teknisk databehandling l_l l_l \__l_l(_/\_) uppsala universitet 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60501">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60501" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 to sum up, when an accelerated board with 4mb vram (true colour 1280x1024) and a fast vga side is available under $500, i will buy one. me too! what's funny is, when we really can buy such a product, it probably won't seem as mouth-watering as it does today. "what? no holograms? get outta here!" i can wait 'cos i've already got an accelerated card. it does 1280x1024 but only 16 colour. you may mock me, but such cards will be here quickly enough. one of the odd things about the computer industry is that, since you can always wait and get something better, some people wait forever. i know people who have deferred updating their original ibm pc for a decade, because every time they look at what's available, they see something better coming down the road. i know people who've dumped their pcs into the garage, but haven't replaced them, because they're afraid it isn't "the right time to buy." they just gave up using computers. i only wait when the difference between my current system and the new stuff is big enough to warrant changing. for instance, i'll be upgrading my 486 33 to a 486dx-2 66 eisa, vlb board rsn. the performance difference (under linux) is great enough to be worthwhile. at the same time i'll be buying a new graphic card and new scsi controller. i'll be buying an s3 card 'cos they're fast enough, i have x11 drivers for them and it'll have 2mb vram just like a weitek 9000 card. it will also be much cheaper. when affordable 4mb cards arrive, i'll buy one. personally, my system at home needs a new disk subsystem, a much larger monitor, a super-fast graphics board by you-know-who, a new cpu board -- i probably won't keep much more than the case and the mouse. come to think of it, i don't like that mouse very much. so when will i buy? when my dream products hit the market? no way! i'm gonna buy as soon as i have the money! over the last year i've done much the same. but now i need a 19" monitor, more memory (20mb just ain't enough), a gb disk (1.2gb and no space left...). oh well, stay single, don't smoke and you may afford it this year ;-) wayne hodgen | hodgen@infko.uni-koblenz.de | opinions (c) me 1991 | intel sx uni koblenz, | (..!unido!infko!hodgen) | keeper of the scrolls, | just rheinau 3-4, | voice: +49 261 9119-645 | defender of the net, | say 5400 koblenz. | fax: +49 261 9119-499 | his name is "root". | no!!! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60506">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60506" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 national semiconductor. i don't know if other manufacturers make equivalent chips or not. maybe national isn't even the original, but they are the only one that i know about. ns16450, ns16c450, ns16c451, ns16550af, ns16c551, and no argument on going direct to national (see my previous post on this topic), but some info regarding what you said above. i don't know about the 8250 or 16450, but ns was the original source for the 16550 series (and i strongly suspect that they developed the others first, too). i can also tell you that i'm one of those who won't buy a uart made by anyone other than national semiconductor. --jim #include <std_disclaimer.h> 73 de n5ial (/4) internet: jim@n5ial.mythical.com | j.graham@ieee.org icbm: 30.23n 86.32w amateur radio: n5ial@w4zbb (ft. walton beach, fl) amtor selcal: nial e-mail me for information about kamterm (host mode for kantronics tncs). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60508">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60508" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking for good add-on font cartridge for hp laserjet ii. i found in pc magazine article iq enginnering and pacific data products are well-known maker of cartridge for hp laserjet series. but i couldn't find the model name of these products. any suggestions please. thanks in advance, hakamata atsushi sony corporation osaki technology center 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60509">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60509" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 except from clock frequency, what are the differences between the various types of 386 and 486 processors? the following is a list with what i know (or perhaps only what i think i know!). can anybody extend & correct? 80386: true 32 bit processor. (cache?) 80386sx: emulates 80386 with a 16 bit bus. 80486: true 32 bit processor. internal mathematical coprocessor (correct?) internal cache (correct? how big?) (extended instruction set in any way?) 80486sx: probably sorta like 80486... 80486dx: probably sorta like 80386... well, it's not much, but i'm sure there is a lot of people out there who can add a lot of information. post or email as you prefer. | lars j|dal | q: what's the difference between a quantum | | email: joedal@dfi.aau.dk | mechanic and an auto mechanic? | | physics student at the | a: a quantum mechanic can get his car into | | university of aarhus | the garage without opening the door. | | denmark | -- david kra | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60512">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60512" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a question concerning scsi on dos. i have a st01 scsi controller and two hard-disks conected (id's 0 and 1). i'd like to connect a scsi streamer, but i don't have software to access it. does such a beast exist as shareware or pd ? also what if i want a third disk ? i know that dos only can "see" two two physical and four logical disks. will it be possible to use extra disks ? contrary to what others might have thought, i actually did have a scsi drive once. it was the seagate 296n and the st-02 controller. i found that the controller couldn't keep up with a 1:1 interleave, so the best i could do with the drive was a 2:1 interleave and a data transfer of about 450 k/sec. i have had that drive/controller coexist with mfm, rll, and ide drives because the st-02 bios will kinda muscle itself in there with no help needed from the computer's bios. dos will see many logical drives, much more than 4 (i've had up to 10). i've often wondered how many scsi drives you could hang off a st-01/02. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60513">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60513" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi! i was wondering if anyone out there could point me to where i can get the vesa specifications or any relevant books on this subject. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60515">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60515" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 except from clock frequency, what are the differences between the various types of 386 and 486 processors? the following is a list with what i know (or perhaps only what i think i know!). can anybody extend & correct? 80386: true 32 bit processor. (cache?) no cache. 80386sx: emulates 80386 with a 16 bit bus. 80486: true 32 bit processor. internal mathematical coprocessor (correct?) internal cache (correct? how big?) (extended instruction set in any way?) was it six instructions? 80486sx: probably sorta like 80486... 80486dx without the mathematical coprocessor (fpu). 80486dx: probably sorta like 80386... actually, the 80486 you described above is 80486dx. (there is no separate 80486 nor 80386, either). this is for intel processors. does anyone have a complete list with cyrix and ibm products? anssi saari s106275@ee.tut.fi tampere university of technology finland, europe 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60517">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60517" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 can somone explain to me all the stuff about modems... like v.32 v.42 hst usrobotics... why cheap 14.4 can' t cannot connect fast to some modems... just explain to me everything!!! thanks.. ... we must believe in free will. we have no choice. ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60520">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60520" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am unable to get my gateway 486dx2/66 to run windows in 1280x1024. i ordered a 2m ati ultra pro, and i'm pretty sure the 2m is really there because i *can* select 1024x768x65536. but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati's program group, 1280x1024 remains ghosted out. i have windows 3.1, build 59 of the drivers, dos 5.0. the drivers were installed by gateway, not by me, so perhaps there's a file missing from the hard drive. it runs 1024x768 just fine. i did go into the desktop window and select 1280x1024. sometimes it refuses (ghosted out), other time it accepts it, but when i hit ok and re-enter desktop, it's back to 1024x768. at no time does it unghost 1280x1024 in the main flex window. help! | keith mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> | | n5wvr <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> | | "black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, | | when your back's against the wall...." -leslie fish | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60522">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60522" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am unable to get my gateway 486dx2/66 to run windows in 1280x1024. i ordered a 2m ati ultra pro, and i'm pretty sure the 2m is really there because i *can* select 1024x768x65536. but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati's program group, 1280x1024 remains ghosted out. i have windows 3.1, build 59 of the drivers, dos 5.0. the drivers were installed by gateway, not by me, so perhaps there's a file missing from the hard drive. it runs 1024x768 just fine. i did go into the desktop window and select 1280x1024. sometimes it refuses (ghosted out), other time it accepts it, but when i hit ok and re-enter desktop, it's back to 1024x768. at no time does it unghost 1280x1024 in the main flex window. help! maybe you need to go into \mach32\install and set a refresh rate for 1280x1024. you might need to use custom monitor option. daniel matthew coleman | internet: dcoleman@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu -----------------------------------+---------- : dcoleman@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu the university of texas at austin | decnet: utxvms::dcoleman electrical/computer engineering | bitnet: dcoleman@utxvms [.bitnet] 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60523">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60523" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i thought i read that fastmicro was having some financial difficulties, is this true? i can't seem to find the posting about it and was wondering if someone can confirm this. eric sebastian 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60524">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60524" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 when sw is delivered you will often (always?) get 360 k diskettes if you opt for the 5 1/4 inch format. how big a %-tage of existing pc/xt/at/ps2's have these low capacity drives as their only diskette station? (o o) +------------------------------ooo--(_)--ooo-----------------------------+ | richard soderberg, md | the karolinska institute | | systems analyst | mic-kibic | | voice#: +8 46 728 80 00 | library and | | fax# : +8 46 33 04 81 | medical information center | | snail : po box 602 01 | doktorsringen 21 c, | | s-104 01 stockholm | s-104 01 stockholm | | email : richard@micb.mic.ki.se | sweden | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60525">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60525" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi! i'm busy resurrecting some old machines (hey, they're cheap and they work :)) and would be grateful for any help with the following card - magitronic - full length 8 bit memory only card. has room for 8 rows of 256k dips for a total of 2mb ram. has an 8 position dip switch on it, presumably for addressing. does any kind soul out there have any docs or drivers for this beast? i'd be disgustingly grateful. (lee@tosspot.sv.com) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60528">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60528" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 selling - arnet multiport card. four serial ports on one card (16450s) with docs and drivers for os/2 and dos (works great with unix flavors too). aggregate is probably around 64kb. offers? also willing to swap for monitor. lee (lee@tosspot.sv.com) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60532">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60532" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i also reviewed a new nanao, the f550iw, which has just been released. what's the difference between the f550i and the new f550iw? i'm about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f550i upgrade. should i get the f550iw instead? mike yang silicon graphics, inc. mikey@sgi.com 415/390-1786 the f550iw is optimized for windows. it powers down when the screen blanker appears, it powers down with you turn your computer off, and it meets all of the swedish standards. it's also protected against emi from adjacent monitors. personally, i think the f550i is more bang for the buck right now. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60534">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60534" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i heard fastmicro went out of business. is this true? they don't answer their 800 number. it's 800-821-9000. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60535">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60535" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 except from clock frequency, what are the differences between the various types of 386 and 486 processors? the following is a list with what i know (or perhaps only what i think i know!). can anybody extend & correct? 80386: true 32 bit processor. (cache?) no cache, also called 386dx. 80386sx: emulates 80386 with a 16 bit bus. it has the same internals as the 386, is a real 32-bit processor, just has 16 bit hookup to the outside world. 80486: true 32 bit processor. internal mathematical coprocessor (correct?) yes, optimized 387 internal. internal cache (correct? how big?) yes, 8k. (extended instruction set in any way?) yes, but only a few instructions, nothing noteworthy. 80486sx: probably sorta like 80486... 486 with no coprocessor. 80486dx: probably sorta like 80386... nope. just another name for the 486. frank racis - fwr100@psuvm.psu.edu - fwr@eclu.psu.edu computers are useless; they can only give answers. "i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs" -wjbc 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60536">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60536" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one. the loopback connector is used to test the serial port. thanks for any help. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60542">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60542" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a colorado memory systems jumbo 250 tape backup unit in my gateway 486/33v tower system. i have found the supplied backup capability to be fairly unreliable. in approx 3 cases out of 10, i have had the backup fail at one point or another, often hanging in the middle of writing the tape. seek errors, drive communication errors seem to be most common. i use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems. should i return the drive, get some better backup software, reformat the tapes (am using cms tapes)? any hints would be appreciated - this stuff is to time-consuming to do over and over again until it cooperates... steve norman snorman@den.mmc.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60543">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60543" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i got a harddisk shipped with an ide specification but not the scsi spec. would someone tell me how to set the jumper on the harddrive? thanks. please email response. philip sinn sinn@carson.u.washington.edu university of washington 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60544">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60544" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just bought a mitsumi cd-rom drive and a sb pro soundcard. the pin outs on the cd-rom line-out and the sb pro cd-in are not the same. i am considering taking the rca output jacks on the mitsumi interface card and routing them to the line-in input on the sb pro. will this work with multi-media software that uses the cd-rom and the sb pro or do i need to go to the cd-in pins on the sb-pro. | john manning | opinions expressed are my own. | | j_manning@csc32.enet.dec.com | i do not represent digital equip. | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60545">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60545" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i read an article about the benefits of a vlb motherboard. it said that a true vlb board supports bus mastering, otherwise it is just as good as an isa doesn't all vlb motherboard support bus mastering? i just bought a 486-33 vlb and the tech manual does not explicitly state the words "local bus mastering" but it said it "supports bus master and slave modes". are these terms ps. - please reply by e-mail as i don't read this newgroup often. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60548">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60548" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 has someone a list of cd-rom's with no scsi-interface and if known how much they are present in the market. please mail direcktly as i am not reguarly reading the group. i'll post a summary if wanted. ihno krumreich | phone (49) 721 955 253 0 u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh | email: ihno@generics.ka.sub.org u u nn n i x x bach strasse 24 | fax (49) 721 59 02 11 u u n n n i x d-w7500 karlsruhe 21 | u u n nn i x x uuu n n iii x x ihno krumreich | phone (49) 721 955 253 0 u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh | email: ihno@generics.ka.sub.org u u nn n i x x 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60549">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60549" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have just a few quick questions. does anyone here have a 486 dlc system? (a cyrix 486 dx) any problems with it? second, how much should a cyric 486dlc-33 motherboard (with no ram) run me? 3rd...should a total amatuer (like myslef) be able to perform a motherboard swap without the aid of a technician, or is it beyond hope? 4th...i hear that some (if not all) hard drives may require reformatting if you switch them to another computer (or motherboard as the case may be). is there any truth to this? any replies would be greatly appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60554">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60554" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 : anyone familiar with this video card? what chipset does the winjet use - s3? : as i am in the market for a vlg video card, what is the best chipset among : s3, cirrus logic and tseng lab (ati is out of the question - too expensive) ? : thanks. winjet is not a video card -- it's _printer_ accelerator manufactured by lasermaster (eden prairie, mn). -- willy * ville v. walveranta tel./fax....: (510) 420-0729 **** ** 96 linda ave., apt. #5 from finland: 990-1-510-420-0729 *** *** oakland, ca 94611-4838 (faxes automatically recognized) ** **** usa email.......: wil@shell.portal.com * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60555">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60555" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive (a seagate 210mb, i can look up the model number if it's important) and i've been trying to help him install it. [i've got a vested interest, since my machine's busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed.] he already has a seagate 85mb ide hd (again, i forget the model number but i can find out.) anyway, i can't seem to get the bloody thing up. i've managed to get one or the other drive up (with the other disconnected), but not both at the same time; whenever i try, the thing hangs during bootup - never gets past the system test. the ide controller's instruction sheet says it supports two drives; i think i've configured the cmos correctly; the power's plugged in properly; i even learned about the master/slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have (didn't know pcs were into s&m! 8^) and i think i configured the jumpers properly (the 85mb one is the master, the new 210mb one is the slave). the only thing i can think of is maybe i'm doing the cabling wrong. i've tried several combinations: controller - master - slave controller - slave - master master - controller - slave none of them worked. unfortunately, i can't think of any others. another possibility is that the 85mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives, c and d, and the cmos asks for "c: drive" and "d: drive" setup info rather than "drive 1" and "drive 2" like most others i've seen. could this be confusing things? so, i need help! the drive came bereft of any docs, except for some info for the cmos setup; the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card; i cannibalized the cable (it's one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle, so it looks like a serial connection); now i be lost! many, many thanks in advance! this is practically an emergency (i have two papers to do on this thing for monday!)! help! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes@sura.net (301) 982-4600 voice (301) 982-4605 fax disclaimer: i don't speak for suranet and they don't speak for me. i've been told by our local computer guru that you can't do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning. i took him at his word, and i have not tried to find out any more about it, because i'm not going to back everything up just to add another hdd. if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is, i would like to know also. thanks in advance also. bill willis 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60557">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60557" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 386/40 motherboard with ami bios. i haven't located the little motherboard manual yet, and suddenly it's giving me 10 beeps when i turn the power on. it was working fine this morning, then gave all kinds of problems, in windows and outside it. after multiple reboots, now it only gives 10 beeps and sits there? anybody know what 10 beeps means? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60558">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60558" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 well, i was told that my last message came through without anything in it, so i'll try again. i have a leading edge 386sx 16 with a flaky motherboard and a friend game me one to replace it, but he didn't have any docs for the mother board. it's a cheertron board with award bios and has a sticker on it that says vi 1 t1 3 t2 3 on it. i can tell what most of the switches on the blue blocks mean. except fdc and sh, but i have no idea about all the jumpers. i've replaced hard drives and modems and installed math co-processes, but this is a bit out of my league and without the docs, i'm really lost. if anyone could give me some help on this, i'd really appreciate it. i don't get on news regularly, so if you can help, please e-mail me at passman@world.std.com -- shirl 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60561">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60561" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 anyone who knows this answer off-hand, please answer me by e-mail quickly ;). there is a pair of jumpers on one side, and a set of 3 or 4 on the other end. one is labeled, sync , and one cd, and e0 e1 e2. whhich do i need to short, or disconnect to get drive to operate in slave mode? give me a label or "geographic label, as they have quite a few jumpers, and i don't wanna try the trial and error method... i am using ide. i think this drive is scsi compatible too. jimmyhua@usc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60562">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60562" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 okay, i'm trying to install ncsa telnet on a couple (okay, a whole bunch) of machines. they're all true blue ibms with either fallon phonenet cards or dastar cards. (i belive those names are correct.) well, the docs for telnet say that it'll run over an appletalk driver, but i've had little if anyone has succesfully installed telnet w/ appletalk, i'd like some help with the config file for telnet... btw, please reply via e-mail if possible... jeremy zawodny | computer science undergrad | bowling green state university jzawodn@andy.bgsu.edu | student computer consultant | *thrilled* os/2 2.0 user 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60564">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60564" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a maxtor 212mb on an isa ide controller, although my machine is dx2/66 vlb. i has the save transfer rate of 0.647 mb/s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed. i tested it with speed between 5.5mhz and 8.33mhz. not _any_ difference. the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory. : i also have a dx2/66 and a maxtor 212. i have a local bus ide controller (generic) and i get : 985 kb/s. i tried swapping my local bus ide controller for an isa ide controller and my : transfer rate went to 830 kb/s. the specs for this drive show a maximum platter to controller : transfer rate of 2.83 mb/s. i dont know how to get there from here. the local bus interface : got me a little, but certainly not as much as i had hoped. i am also looking for a way to what is the deal with the ide transfer rates? is anybody getting throughput anywhere close to the platter->controller rate? i haven't seen anything even close to the 5mb/sec limit of the ide interface. these drives are 1:1 (non-interleaved), aren't they? here are the rates i get: 1) sequential read (msdos c program that uses bios calls to read 64-sector blocks sequentially from outside (first) track inward) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor lxt340: 860kb/sec 976kb/sec quantum lps240: 862kb/sec 887kb/sec 2) disk buffer read (same c program, but re-reads the same block repeatedly so in effect is reading the ram buffer on the drive) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor lxt340: 1046kb/sec 1212kb/sec quantum lps240: 1015kb/sec 1276kb/sec 3) coretest v2.7 transfer rate (seems to agree with (2) above) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor lxt340: 1051kb/sec 1224kb/sec quantum lps240: 1026kb/sec 1298kb/sec i managed to get hold of the quantum lps240at product manual and it goes into excrutiating detail describing how the bits get from the platter, through the controller, and out the ide interface. nowhere do i see anything like "after the bits are whipped of the platter at high speed they sit around in a buffer to thaw before they are sent to the host" (even though i swear that's whats happening ;->). here are some relevent quotes from the manual: "data is transferred from the disk to the read buffer at a rate of 3.75 mb/s maximum, 1.87mb/s minimum." (my calculations show 3121kb/sec maximum and 1578kb/sec minimum... disk spins at 4306 rpm with 87 sectors per track on the outside and 44 on the inside) "single burst errors of up to 24 bits within one sector can be corrected 'on-the-fly', in real time as they occur, allowing a high degree of data integrity with no impact to the drive's performance." (i take this to mean error correction isn't the bottleneck) "for page-mode operations, the data-transfer rate to and from the buffer ram is up to 10.0 mb/s. this high transfer rate allows the at interface ic to communicate over the at bus at a data-transfer rate of 5.0 mb/s, while the dcs simultaneously controls disk-to-ram transfers" so the thing can even do it's cache pre-fetch while it's sending the requested sector (it has 3 64kb read buffers for pre-fetching, i guess you could call that a cache :-|). so when i do a sequential read on the outer tracks, why am i getting a measly 862kb/sec when i should be getting around 3mb/sec??? any of you hard-disk engineers out there know? wondering why my disks are so slow, o o --------------------ooo-(_)-ooo-------------------------------------------- david stam linux: the choice of a gnu generation stam@netcom.com 386-un*x-x11r5-openlook-gcc-tex-free! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60565">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60565" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there, i think it is time to create a ms dos 6.0 faq since lots of questions about it are actually flooding the net. i won't be able to write it my self because of the lack of time/knowledge/experience. perry egelmeers 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60569">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60569" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i486 clones has been thrown out, making it legal for amd to ship in the us. can anyone out there verify this? thanks in advance 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60571">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60571" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi! when posting winmark results, it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores, as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers. eric balog balog@eniac.seas.upenn.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60572">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60572" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 16550s are _not_ stupid! actually, they are, in the sense that hardware solutions to a software problem are not proper. a programmer's function [much deleted] amazing. i could not find _one_ reference to waffle in all of this. followups redirected out. russell schulz russell@alpha3.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca ersys!rschulz shad 86c 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60573">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60573" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am unable to get my gateway 486dx2/66 to run windows in 1280x1024. i ordered a 2m ati ultra pro, and i'm pretty sure the 2m is really there because i *can* select 1024x768x65536. but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati's program group, 1280x1024 remains ghosted out. i have windows 3.1, build 59 of the drivers, dos 5.0. the drivers were installed by gateway, not by me, so perhaps there's a file missing from the hard drive. it runs 1024x768 just fine. i did go into the desktop window and select 1280x1024. sometimes it refuses (ghosted out), other time it accepts it, but when i hit ok and re-enter desktop, it's back to 1024x768. at no time does it unghost 1280x1024 in the main flex window. help! i had a problem getting 256 colors (i was stuck with 16) even though the flex-stuff said i was at 1024-256. i solved it by entering the 'advanced' window on the flex program pannel and changing the 'color palette'. sorry for the vaugeness, i hope it helps some. btw, i have a gw2000-66v and 1m ati gup. matt sexton sexton@claes.space.lockheed.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60577">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60577" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 would someone please email (and post) the avi (microsoft) file format. i wish to do some research using this format, as there are disks available with video clips. it is interesting because it interleaves sound and thank you mark gregory lecturer m.gregory@rmit.edu.au ph(03)6603243 fax(03)6621060 royal melbourne institute of technology, department of communication and electronic engineering, p.o. box 2476v, melbourne, victoria, 3001. australia. mark gregory lecturer m.gregory@rmit.edu.au ph(03)6603243 fax(03)6621060 royal melbourne institute of technology, department of communication and electronic engineering, p.o. box 2476v, melbourne, victoria, 3001. australia. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60578">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60578" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 being a big fan of the official ibm keyboards, i have a ps/2 keyboard attached to my clone computer. i want to know if there is a software utility out there that can be used to switch the locations of the ctrl and cap locks keys. even better, does ibm or any third party make ctrl and cap lock key replacements that can be used to visually switch the keys as well? will estes internet: westes@netcom.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60579">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60579" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have been unable to get com 4 to work - diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed. i think the software options are ok - is there a known hardware conflict and/or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g2k 486dx2/66 tower with ati video card ports are set as follows on board coma = com1 irq4 to external device internal modem = com 3 irq5 dfio port card primary port = com 2 irq3 mouse on board com b = com 4 irq 9 <--- does not work i have run this from a boot disk with only command.com to eliminate softwar any suggestions before i call technical support? john siegel k4bnc@cbnewsh.att.com jas@hrollie.hr.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60580">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60580" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 b(>i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding b(>extended operation of my g2k 486-33v with the cover removed b(>from the enclosure. there are a # of reasons i am considering b(>this, including quick access to jumpers during complex i/o card b(>setups. b(>my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the b(>cooling flow of air from the fan, "hot spots" may develop on my b(>motherboard or elsewhere. if you have an adequate supply of air moving over the system (most offices or homes have positive ventilation) you can generally run a system without the cover for extended periods without a problem. (i'm talking about completely removing the cover - not just leaving the slots uncovered.) however, the biggest reason you have a cover to begin with is rf sheilding. operating a system without the full cover may create problems with other equipment such as your neighbor's tv or ham radio station - very much a no-no in the eyes of the law. * slmr 2.1a * remember - they're only tools, not a way of life! -- via dlgqwk v0.71a 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60652">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60652" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 when you leave your radio on at night, it may not be doing anything useful. but computers can do something useful even when you are not in front of it. just because ms-dos and windoze does not know how to schedule tasks does not mean that all computers hould be shut down every night. i bet starting up nt every morning means a good coffee break.... if someone asks if you are a god, you say... yes! in addition to startup time, i leave things running because my pc doubles as a fax machine. however, this is off the original subject. i didn't get the replies on bios, cmos, and dos clock/date logic. all i know is that i've been running this way for many months and it is only recently, the last month, that i have noticed the intermittent clock problem. as i stated, it is not always the date that doesn't roll forward, sometimes i notice that the clock is several minutes behind where it ought to be. when unattended, the following are generally running minimized in win 3.1: clock, winfax pro 3.0, print manager, ms-word 1.1, file manager, program a random screen saver is generally running too. barry sardis | home: (408) 448-1589 1241 laurie avenue | office: (408) 448-7404 san jose, ca 95125 | fax: (408) 448-7404 email: bsardis@netcom.com or 70105.1210@compuserve.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60653">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60653" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic 17? they claim 1280x1024 at 76hz. how does it compare with the t560i in terms of price, and quality of display? |-----| living on tulsa time..... | rusty foreman - - - - - - - - rforeman@trc.amoco.com | amoco production research {...uunet}!apctrc!zrdf01 | p.o. box 3385 phone: (918) 660-3488 | tulsa, ok 74102 fax: 918-660-4163 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60654">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60654" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a gateway 4dx-33v with my 3.5 inch floppy as drive a. i accidentally discovered that if a have a floppy from one particular box of diskettets in the a drive when i boot up, rather than getting the "non-system diskette" message, the machine hangs and the cmos gets overwritten (luckily, gateway sends a print of the standard cmos settings with their systems). this only happens with a box of pre-formatted fuji disks that i have, no other disks cause this problem. if i re-format one of the fuji disks, the problem goes away. i did a virus scan (scan v1.02) of the disks and found nothing. anyone have any idea what is going on here? hardware problem? a virus that can't be detected? the system reading in garbage from the boot sector? tim king, tcking@uswnvg.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60658">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60658" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 386/40 motherboard with ami bios. after multiple reboots, now it only gives 10 beeps and sits there? referring to the manual of my motherboard with ami-bios, 10 beeps are a 'cmos shutdown register read/write error', if the system stops after these beeps. if the system continues, it is a 'keyboard error'. * michael@jester.gun.de * michael gerhards * preussenstrasse 59 * * germany 4040 neuss * voice: 49 2131 82238 * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60660">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60660" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 from x51948b1@usma1.usma.edu tue apr 20 10:28:47 1993 received: from usma1.usma.edu by trotter.usma.edu (4.1/smi-4.1-eef) id aa01628; tue, 20 apr 93 11:27:50 edt received: by usma1.usma.edu (5.51/25-eef) id aa03219; tue, 20 apr 93 11:20:18 edt message-id: <9304201520.aa03219@usma1.usma.edu> to: cs1442au@decster.uta.edu status: or i am running a unisys pw2 386sx20 with dos 6. my problem, even when i had dos 5.0, is that when i have emm386 loaded i can't ctl-alt-del. if i do, the computer beeps a few times rapidly and hangs. then i have to use the obscure reset (requires a screwdriver or pencil) or the power switch to reboot. does anyone have a solution to this problem? e-mail me at x51948b1@usma1.usma.edu david s. peckham | internet : x51948b1@usma1.usma.edu u.s. military academy | jason brown cs1442au@decster.uta.edu fav player ruben sierra 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60661">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60661" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm currently in the process of writing a number of pd programs for the sound blaster. the first of which is a cmf voice editor which is hopefully going to be available soon (as soon as i can get it to an ftp site). anyway the next stage is to use the midi port to enter music and play the fm synth remotely. the problem is that i have little or no info on the sb midi port. i have tried using the sound blaster freedom project routines, however this just results in the port locking after a couple of accesses and loss the of note velocity data byte. i am using turbo c and would be grateful for any info or source fragments may help. when i was in berlin this summer i saw a book which seemed to have all this information, but my german is poor to say the least, if anyone has this book could they please mail me. my second request for help concerns standard file formats (how can a file format be standard if you keep it secret ?) i need to know the file format for instrument bank files *.bnk and roland music files *.rol. finally does anyone have a source for displaying pcx or gif files to ega or vga monitors. please help, you know it makes sense. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60662">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60662" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a question regarding sending a null character across ethernet connection. the actual problem is that emacs (unix editior) needs the null character for setting a mark and unfortunately we don't know how to sent that from ibm pcs across ethernet. i am wondering if anyboy knows the keyboard combination for sending the null character. btw control,shift 2 which ctrl @ does not work. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60667">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60667" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i saw a posting earlier that refered to funet.fi directory /pub/msdos however, when i log on to funet.fi i cant even find the "pub" directory let alone the "msdos" directory !!!! can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong?? perhaps you should try nic.funet.fi instead of funet.fi ??!?!? nic.funet.fi is the biggest (?) ftp site from europe, but the stuff available there should (?) also be available at the other site of the "big pool". perry egelmeers 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60668">
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 how stable are the build 59 drivers? are people having success installing and running with these? i've been using the build59 drivers on a gw2k 4dx2-66v for several weeks with no problems. i'm running windows in 1024x758 and all software i've run has worked fine. this includes many games and the cd-based multi-media encyclopedia, on which the full-motion video works fine. i'd recommend you give them a try. -- john john gayman, wa3wbu uucp: uunet!wa3wbu!john packet: wa3wbu @ wb3eah 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60671">
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 eric, send me your email address, i lost it! i've reconsidered! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60684">
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 sorry if this has been beaten to death on this forum. i am looking seriously at buying a 486 dx / 33 from gateway. i will probably buy it without a monitor, as i've heard negative stuff about gateway monitors. i've also heard its tough to get through to technical i'm seeking opinions on whether or not its wise to go ahead based on criteria such as price, warranty service, general ruggedness of the system, reliability of the machine and of gateway too, and so on. please advise!! thanks in advance! vasudev murthy vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy@asl.dl.nec.com my own and have nothing to do with (214) 518-3602 advanced switching lab, nec america, inc. 1525 walnut hill lane irving tx 75038 
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 hi netters, as promised, here are the summary of opinions on doubledisk gold v.6.0. people seem to be quite happy with the product. there is no much of opinion on how good it is compared to the industry leader stacker 3.0. (superstor pro is not considered since it is slower than stacker although just as reliable - byte magazine's conclusion ;-) ), so it's hard to make any decision to go with stacker or with doubledisk gold v6.0. however, it seems that at $39.95, it is quite a buy. buddy christyono buddy@optics.ece.wisc.edu summary of replies hello buddy, i do not have dd gold 6.0 experience. i just ordered it. i currently have dd 2.3 (the last version). i am very pleased with its performance. here is my suggestion... 1) if you do not have any compression software currently, i would go with dos 6.0's compression. all the discussion on the net indicates that for $50 you get the compression (built into the os), plus the other utilities that you would pay way more than $50 for. besides, you are now at dos6.0 (whatever that means...) 2) if you have doubledisk 2.3 already (like i do), the cost is $29.95 for the upgrade. after thinking about it and asking the net, i decided that i could not go wrong with the update cost! i have never suffered from performance of dd. i have a 12ms hd with large sw packages in both compressed and uncompressed format. it works great. not delays. i think the "a" is better than "b" arguements are a lot of bunk... they are all comparable in performance. i am looking forward to being able to "loadhigh" the dd sw. that has been an annoyance. 3) if you have stacker, et.al. currently, i would not see it worth the effort to upgrade. just my $.02 ... mark bagdy i got the same mailer. about 2 weeks ago i got ddg and installed it. the documentation was, in my opinion, easy to follow. i used the automatic installation (not the custom) and everything went smoothly. there were some specific instructions on a readme file for dealing with 386max & qemm. ddg has an uninstall (unlike dos6.0) if you need it. my system has a 203mb hard drive. before installing ddg i had ~5mb free. after ddg i had ~197mb free. pretty good statistics considering that my 8mb permanent windows swap file stayed on the uncompressed portion (along with other drivers and such). i have had no problems whatsoever. i have noticed no slowdown (other than it takes a little longer to boot) either in windows or dos. so far i am a very happy camper. bruce f. steinke | "never know when you're going to bsteinke@dsd.es.com | need a good piece of rope." software technical support engineer | sam gamgee evans & sutherland computer corp. | <my mail, my opinions> i have been using doubledisk gold for a little more than a month on a 486dx 33mhz, 120mb seagate drive, running dos & windows in 386 enhanced i ran some tests and concluded that the speed of a doubledisk drive with a drive read cache is about equal to the bare drive without a cache. i have no complaints about reliability. it was very easy to install. the only problem i had was with castle wolfenstein 3-d. i assumed the game was trying to bypass dos disk access and moved the game to the non-compressed region of the disk. since then the game has never given me a problem. there was never any damage to the doubledisk drive. compression performance for the whole disk has held steady around 1.8:1. this is lower than expected but about 20% (size) of my files are compressed image files and some large zip files. if you have any more specific questions let me know. i bought it an have been happy with it. i use it on both mfm and ide 40 mb drives. i was using doubledisk before gold came out. that is the same product msdos 6.0 is shipping with. no problems with either ron bjornseth bjornset@pogo.den.mmc.com -------------------- end of messages -------------------------------------- 
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 i am trying to put together a new pc with vesa local bus. i would like to get vlb cards for video and scsi but i have heard of a problem with bus mastering controllers on vlb. something to the effect that they will actually slow down a system. anyone heard of this problem? specifically, i am interested in the ultrastor 34f vlb scsi controller. before i shell out the bucks for this thing i would like to get the straight scoop from someone who knows. does anyone have this controller? any problems with it? bob kimball rkimball@qualcomm.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60687">
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 while playing around with my gateway 2000 local-bus machine last night, it became apparent that windows 3.1 didn't give the option for 32-bit access for virtual memory. i am using a permanent swap file, and the disk drive is on the local bus interface. is this expected, or should i be investigating further why no 32-bit option appears? you need to massage few switches in your system.ini. in the virtual memory section, flip the 32bitaccess switch on and the associated driver (wdctl or some such) switch on. this will enable 32bit access, but be sure you can use it, as not all hard drives and controllers support it ! ...for seriously fast disk access: 1) throw out windoze 2) install os/2 i did this weekend - os/2 is incredible. finally a real os for the humble pc :) -- tim 
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 i know of two people who have horrer stories about the dos 6.0. that's 100% of the people i know with dos 6.0. both have had to reformat their disks and start over. i used the standard installation program to put ms-dos 6.0 on my machine with stacker 3.0 already installed. no problems. i kept stacker, rather than switch. i am very pleased with the memory i gained since i did not have a memory manager. i also like the multiple boot feature. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60690">
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 i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable. (actually i have no idea, so don't count that last statement.) what i'm asking is what pins does it use (or what are it's specifications?) i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one. i don't even know what port is help me please (at ke_kimmell@vax.cns.muskingum.edu) p.s. i'm intending to use the cable for pc-to-pc transfers (via lap-link or telix. ideas and info gladly accepted.) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60691">
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 hey folks. is it possible to short out your cmos chip? i think mine is fried. these are the symptoms... i have to do the following to get my computer (a gateway 486dx33) to boot... turn the power off disconnect the battery to the cmos chip turn the power on get into setup upon getting the cmos configuration error set up the cmos exit the setup with [f10] (phoenix bios) ignore the diskette 0 seek error and press [f1] the computer then boots normally. both hard drives are accessible but the floppy drives are not. i can back up over the network and such, but if i need to reboot, i have to turn off the computer and repeat the steps above. if i simply <ctl>-<alt>-<del>, the computer hangs after the memory test. does this sound like the cmos chip is fried? can i buy another one? thank you for your kind attention. john c. lusth, becton dickinson research center, rtp, nc, usa jcl@bdrc.bd.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60692">
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 for those of you who might be familiar with insight distribution network, inc. and their multimedia kits: i'm seriously considering buying the insight talon ta-2000 mm kit, which is bundled with the cd-rom drive with 265-280ms access time, 300kb dtr, multispin, multi-session photo cd capability, etc., and with the pas-16 sound card, etc.... (if you are familiar with insight, you know the kit i mean). i believe the drive is either a texel (265ms) or an nec (280ms), but it is not clear to me which one is actually a part of the bundle (at least two of their sales people couldn't give me a straight answer as to which one; ah, yes, one of the drawbacks of oem!). other questions: - excuse my ignorance, but is "texel" a reputable maker in the cd-rom market? or do you think nec is the better drive? - bottom line: is this kit worth the money? (currently, $449 for the ta-1000, and $699 for the ta-2000) alternatively, i was thinking that the ta-2000 might be overkill for my uses (however, i *do* want full multimedia capabilities, photo cd stuff, educational programs for my kids, etc.), and considered the lower-end ta-1000 kit and using the difference (around $250.00) to get something else useful, like a tape back-up drive unit. basically, i would just like to hear from those who have actually used these kits, and whatever pros/cons you might advise, preferably directly to the email address below. _/ ~~~~~~~~~~_/~~~~~~~~~~_/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | _/ _/ | koji kodama | | by _/ _/ | nippon motorola ltd. | | _/ _/ | ryvg90@email.sps.mot.com | | _/ _/ |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | _/_/ _/ | note: the opinions expressed herein | | _/ _/ | are mine, and do not reflect the opinions | | _/ _/ |or policies of motorola inc. or its affiliates.| ~~_/~~~~~~~~~~_/~~~~~_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _/_/_/ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60693">
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 how hot should the cpu in a 486-33 dx machine be? currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than 0.5 s. i keep a big fan blowing on it, but am considering using a heat sink. any advice? chris kushmerick kushmer@bnlux1.bnl.gov --i found my niche in life, i just didn't fit in. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60694">
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 has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic 17? they claim 1280x1024 at 76hz. how does it compare with the t560i in terms of price, and quality of display? i'm interested in the new viewsonic 17 as well. has anyone seen one of these monitors in the flesh? 
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 "these lpt1, com1, disk controller are call devices. there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership, eg. disk controller (i6) and keyboard (i1). there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership, ie. it will share an interrupt with another device, eg. lpt1" no. in a standard isa bus, the one that almost all non-laptop pcs use, two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt. this is due to a screwup in the bus design. for example, if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number 7, then it must hold a certain bus wire to 0 or 1 at all times, depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt. this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7. when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt, it's because they're implemented by a single card. -=- andrew klossner (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60701">
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 in going with the modern trend, the orchid p9000 card only supports 16 colors in 640x480 mode without a driver. of course, this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes (like most of my cd-roms). this is not the case: the rom on the p9000 supports vesa modes of up to 1024x768 in 256 colors. vesa-compliant applications should have no trouble setting these modes. (but i'm forwarding your posting to our software group, just in case. can't be too careful.) not that i doubt that your applications are failing to run; lots of stuff depends on figuring out which exact svga they're looking at, and don't use vesa calls (vesa is still pretty new). every new chip set confuses them. the supported resolutions really annoy me. you can do 1280x1024 at 75hz if you tell the driver you have an nec 5fg (they only have about six monitors listed plus 'generic', and if you choose generic you can't get any high refreshes at all). but at 1024x768 you are limited to 70hz. seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth (if it can do 75hz at 1280 it sure should be able to do it at 1024!). higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f. vlb i currently have, and it will do 1024x768x70 hz as well. i think we go to at least 76 hz at 1024x768x8, and maybe more (and it's a function of the ramdac speed, not the power 9000). we need to fix the problems you've noted (they were already on the list). if you're really interested, though, take a look at the text file p9000res.dat, which holds the data from which the choices in the p9000 monitor installation program are built. working by analogy, you can build up a new monitor definition that has the right combinations of refresh rates for your monitors. keep a backup copy of the file! once you've built a new version of the p9000res.dat file, run the p9000 installation program, inst, and your new choices should show up. (this assumes you have the weitek v. 2.2 drivers. you can tell the rev number by looking at the modification time of the driver: 02:20 is version 2.20. microsoft uses this gimmick, too.) the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program. this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels/second. i don't have the numbers for the graphite card, but they were close to half of the ofvlb (ie, slower) but that was running in a 20mhz 386, isa, so the numbers aren't really comparable. the following numbers were all obtained using a 486, 33 mhz, air motherboard (umc chipset), with 8 mb memory. i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them, and these tend to jump around a bit. the speedy benchmark was put out by hercules and iit, who to my knowledge were unencumbered by any motivations except making the hercules graphite/iit agx014 card look really good. so i'd take the numbers with a ton of salt. (texas instruments did the same thing with wintach, trying to make the 34020 look good compared to the 8514, as if anyone cared.) it's safer (though not safe) to use benchmarks from "unbiased" sources, such as testing labs, columnists, interestingly, the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement, and hatched polygons (ie, filled with cross-hatching) and ternary rops (whatever they are. graphics operations like xors maybe????) are a dead loss on the 9000. i think you'll a large discrepancy between the results of speedy and the results of anything else in the universe on these things. i give two numbers for the 9000 fonts, because i think they are caching. when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly -- 1/3 the speed of the ofvlb. then the speed increases dramatically. sounds like programming to a benchmark to me.... font caching is a perfectly legitimate optimization -- windows has hooks for it built right into the gdi. what's kind of silly is iit's use of a hardwired "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog then sat on a tack" string in their driver. not only is it useless in real applications, it lacks the programming elegance of the "bart simpson optimization," in which you save the bitmap of the most-recently drawn string in off-screen memory, and just do a screen-to-screen bitblit if you happen to be given that same string a second time in a row. (we call it the "bart simpson optimization" because bart's the only person we can see benefiting from it: he could right "i will not cheat on benchmarks" a hundred times and be done in half the time it would take to actually form each character.) i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all. its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer. i normally don't write disclaimers, but this time maybe i'd better. my testing is totally unconnected with my work (i program under unix on decstations) is done completely without the knowledge, blessing, or equipment of my company. we don't have any lawyers -- they're all working for intel. there used to be a lawyer in montana who didn't, but he died. -- robert robert plamondon, robert@weitek.com "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. i, the great and glorious oz, have spoken!" -- scene from a trade show 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60711">
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 hi there. we just bought a 486 dx2/66 gateway system with a 2 meg ati ultra pro video card. everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for 800x600 24 bit, and 800x600 and 1024x768 16 bit modes. the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup, and within minutes of use, everything on the screen is totally unintelligible. naturally, i called gateway tech support to inquire about this. the technician asked me about the drivers, and i told him it was version 1.5, build 59. he told me that the 16 and 24 bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply do not work!!! is this true? if so, i'm simply amazed. how could this be? the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here (unless the subject has made the faq!!!). one very suspicious point that came up later was that he stated that none of the windows accelerator boards have working 16 and/or 24 bit drivers for windows 3.1. i easily challenged him on that because i've been running a diamond 24x in 15 bit mode at home for 4 months now, and i have tested and used the 24 bit mode as well. he then backed off and said: "well, diamond has been working on those drivers much longer." anyway, i just wanted to see if anyone else had any trouble and what they did about it. any feedback will be appreciated. the system configuration is: gateway 486 dx2/66 local bus 16 megs ram scsi hd & cd-rom ultrastor 34f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with 2mb vram dos 6.0 windows 3.1 mach 32 drivers version 1.5 (build 59) thanks in advance. ali r. vali - reza@magellan.ae.utexas.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60716">
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 experiences with diamond viper vlb video card several problems: 1) the ad specified 16.7 million colors at 640x480 resolution with 1mb of vram, which is what i have. this color depth is not supported with video bios version 1.00 and drivers version 1.01. a max of 65k colors are supported at 640x800 and 800x600 resolutions with 1mb 2) with the 65k color choice i notice two minor irritations: a) under ndw, when an entry in a list is highlighted (such as in an open menu) and then is deselected, a faint vertical line often remains where the left edge of the highlighted rectangle used to b) with word for windows, when you use shading in a table, the display shows the inverse of the shading; for example, if you shade the cell as 10%, the display is 90% (the printout is ok). 3) the big killer bug is using the borland c++ integrated development environment. the problem occurs when you click on the turbo debugger icon (or use the debugger option in the run command), and the debugger application goes to vga character mode (as it is designed to do). the screen goes haywire, and is largely unreadable. the turbo debugger display is all garbled. through trial and error, i have found that when the disrupted screen is displayed you should do [alt-spacebar] followed by the letter "r". this instructs turbo debugger to refresh the screen, and it does this satisfactorily. i wish i didn't have to do this. the bug is more than with the diamond drivers. the same disruptive behavior happens with the standard vga driver that comes with windows. there must be something in the video card that mishandles the vga mode. the problem is not my monitor. the same bug shows up when i use another monitor in place of my usual one. i still like this video card, and am hoping its problems will be remedied (they do offer a 5 year warranty). swh, 20apr93 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60718">
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 hay all: has anyone out there heard of any performance stats on the fabled p24t. i was wondering what it's performance compared to the 486/66 and/or pentium would be. any info would be helpful. robert novitskey | rrn@po.cwru.edu | (216)754-2134 | cwru cleve. ohio computer engineer and c programmer | now seeking summer jobs 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60719">
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 i'm in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix 1.10 (got a new hard disk, discovered my bios doesn't have a "type 47") and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things. i checked with the motherboard manufacturer (for the curious-- it's from mylex), and hearing the $60 figure prompted me to at least try to shop around... problem is, i don't know where to shop around for something like this. i have heard that there's a bios speciality shop in the south bay and it's been alleged that they advertise in the microtimes. did find the microtimes, didn't find the ad or the shop. so, can anybody help me out on this quest? to anybody who replies to this-- thanks in advance. -jeff chan | these are my opinions. it jeff@ikos.com (*not* ikos@netcom.com) | would be quite silly if it ..!netcom!ikos!jeff | was also my company's... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60720">
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 : just taken delivery of a 66mhz 486 dx2 machine, and very nice it is too. : one query - the landmark speed when turbo is on is 230 or something mhz : - thats not the problem. the problem is the speed when turbo is off. its : 7 mhz. the equivalent in car terms is having a nice porsche with a button : that turns it into a skateboard. : does anyone have a clue as to what determines the relative performance of : turbo vs non-turbo?? i would like to set it to give a landmark speed of : about 30 or 40 mhz with turbo off. : cheers, it should be halved that of turbo (ie 33mhz). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60723">
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 i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb/isa/eisa motherboards with hint chipsets. has anybody had any experience with this board (good or bad)? any information would be helpful! brian j schaufenbuel i believe that any vl/eisa/isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to 24-bit eisa dma (where 'real' eisa dma is 32-bit). the hint eisa dma has the 16 mb ram addressing limitation of isa. for this reason i would pass. i own one of these (hawk vl/eisa/isa) and am look- ing to replace it for exactly this reason. please double-check me on this. in other words, call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true 32-bit eisa other than this limitation, the motherboard works quite well (i am using mine with dos 5, windows 3.1, and unix s5r3.2). also with adaptec 1742a eisa scsi host adapter. gary korenek (korenek@nmti.com) network management technology incorporated sugar land, texas (713) 274-5357 you are correct! the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks... _______________________________________- brian schaufenbuel____________________ | brian j schaufenbuel [ "there is no art which one government sooner learns ] | helser 3644 halsted [ than that of draining money from the pockets of the ] | ames, ia 50012 [ people [especially college students]." - adam smith ] 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60728">
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 i would like to thank all those people who responded to my post. i would, however, like to clear some things up. my tape drive is *external*. also, the connector on the back of it is of the male db-37 pin variety. as a result, i cannot easily find a cost-effective solution to use the drive. any advice will be greatly appreciated. i would prefer email. thanks! ..tony shan ..tonys@uiuc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60729">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60729" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 well it seems that i have a soundblaster card for sale since i recently purchased a sbpro. the card comes complete, in mint condition; with box, manuals,docs ,disks and original packaging. make an offer..._canadian_ inquiries prefered! respond before april 28!!!!!!!!!!!!! e-mail at acps7117@ryevm.ryerson.ca j.m. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60733">
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 i just bought an actix graphics engine 32 plus with 2 megs. i am not impressed... i have been having all sorts of problems with the board. various lock-ups in windows, problems with the screen not centering, no flexibilty in choosing synch rates for a monitor, buggy windows drivers, lack of 1024x768x64k driver, if anyone else has one of these cards, please e-mail me... looks like i'm going to try the ati ultra plus... brad@bach.udel.edu brad cain n3naf cain@snow-white.ee.udel.edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain@freezer.cns.udel.edu "blah, blah, blah" alt.blah 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60735">
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 i need 100 simms and 100 sipps 1mb, but price should be around $17-20/piece. i assume you are talking about 1meg x 9 simms, or 1meg x 9 sipps with speed of 70ns? i would take 10k pieces per week if you have that price. (fob us port). i am not waiting for an offer with that price, i could only dream. i am waiting for an offer. yuri yulaev 6553, 38th ave ne seattle wa 98115 (206) 524-2806,524-9547 (home) (206) 685-3793 (work) (206) 524-7218 (fax) internet: yuri@atmos.washington.edu uucp: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!yuri 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60736">
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 does anyone have enough experience to report whether disk data compression has any effect on the optimal disk sector interleave? offhand, i expect that the time required to decompress disk data would increase the optimum disk sector interleave. - alan hinds 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60737">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60737" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 hi. i am trying to set up a conner 3184 and a quantum 80at drive. i have the conner set to the master, and the quantum set to the slave (doesn't work the other way around). i am able to access both drives if i boot from a floppy, but the drives will not boot themselves. i am running msdos 6, and have the conner partitioned as primary dos, and is formatted with system files. i have tried all different types of setups, and even changed ide controller cards. if i boot from a floppy, everything works great (except the booting part :)). the system doesn't report an error message or anything, just hangs there. does anyone have any suggestions, or has somebody else run into a similar problem? i was thinking that i might have to update the bios on one of the drives (is this possible?). any suggestions/answers would be greatly appreciated. please reply to: jason badry badry@cs.ualberta.ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60738">
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 : i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one : i already had. my problem is this. my system only had a ide cable : for one drive, so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors : on it, and consequently have to switch cables. the problem is, : the new hard drive's manual refers to matching pin 1 on the cable : with both pin 1 on the drive itself and pin 1 on the ide card. but : for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug : in the cable to align these. most ide drives that i have dealt with have had pin 2 labeled on the printed circuit board (this is sufficient to determine which side is which). if your ide drive does not have a label, then you can look for a polarization notch in the receptacle (the connector on the drive with the pins). if the receptacle is center polarized, that is it has one rectangular notch about 4 mm wide positioned in the center of one side, then you can identify pin 1 as follows: look into the pins with the notch at the top, pin 1 is at the top right. on all drives i have seen this is toward the power connector. as for which pin is pin 1 on the controller, well you can use the same criteria but look hard for the labelling of any pin. once you know which end pin 1&2 are on or pins 39 & 40 (the oposite end), then you are all set. all you need to do is keep the pin 1 end connected to the pin 1 end. you don't even have to look at the cable itself. just trace the pin 1 side of the cable through. usually the pin 1 of the cable is identified by a different color (red usually). but beware - many cable makers are not very careful about this - i have seen cables with pin 40 being the one marked red. of course with non-polarized connectors this doesn't matter - you can plug the cable in either way and you decide which side is pin 1. : secondly, the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them. : i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into : the drives. does it matter which i plug into the "master" drive : and which into the "slave"? any help appreciated. thanks... it doesn't matter what gets plugged where. but it does matter how the drives are jumpered. there will be (amongst other options) two jumpers that you should be concerned with on both drives. one jumper will select whether the drive is the slave or the master. if it is the master, then a second jumper selects whether or not a slave is present. you will have to consult the docuementation that came with you drives. if you do not have docuementation, then just call the manufacturers hotline number or fax number if they have one. this kind of information is routinely needed by people just like yourself. they will fax you complete info about the jumpers. if you don't have convenient access to a fax machine, then you can usually get voice help. or post the specific question to this group. (i probably won't be able to help you). good luck gordon lang 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60739">
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 [stuff deleted] so the lowly low-density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc-at hdd controller doesn't!?!? that makes real sense. actually, it does make a reasonable amount of sense. fixed disk sectors are buffered by the controller, and transferring them to memory with a 'rep insw' (or whatever the instruction is called) is quite efficient (single instruction, goes as fast as the controller/cpu know how to use the bus). since the 286 wasn't cached, the bus is likely a critical resource relative to cpu performance, and it's possible that dma bus interference would cause as much or more loss of cpu cycles (for 'computing') as does the 'rep insw' sequence. the floppy, on the other hand, is not buffered, so that using the cpu for floppy data transfer (as was done on the pc jr, by the way) really does stink. wally bass 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60740">
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 [stuff deleted] did i once hear that in order for the date to advance, something, like a clock, *has* to make a get date system call? apparently, the clock hardware interrupt and bios don't do this (date advance) automatically. the get date call notices that a "midnight reset" flag has been set, and then then advances the date. anybody with more info? there are two 'problems': (1) the bios tod routine which updates the bios clock uses only 1 bit for day increment, so a second wrapping of the clock past midnight will get lost if no one calls the bios to read the clock in the meantime, and (2) the bios resets the day wrap indicator on the first 'get date' call from anybody (after the wrap indicator has been set). so unless the first bios 'get date' call after midnight is done by the dos 'kernel' (which is the only part of dos which knows how to increment the date, the day wrap indication is normally lost. my guess is that kevin's 'menu' system uses bios calls to read the clock (in order to display the time), and is hence the entity which causes the day wrap indication to get lost. even if the 'menu' system 'notices' the day 'wrap' (which i think is indicated by a non-zero value in al), there really isn't any particularly good way to tell dos about it, so that dos can update the day. the menu system 'should' use dos calls to get the time, which would cause the dos 'kernel' to do the bios call, and the wrap indicator would hence be processed properly. possibly, though, the 'menu' system can't easily use dos calls for time, because dos is not reentrant, and perhaps time incrementing ofters occur while the 'menu' system is 'inside' some other dos call. wally bass 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60741">
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 the subject says it all. i'm wondering if anyone on the net has had any experiences with cornell computer systems of california. i was checking out their ad in computer shopper, and they seem to have a good balance between service, price, and hardware. the question is -- are they reliable? e-mail responses would be appreciated. v117q38h@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60742">
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 i have a dfi handy scanner model hs-3000plus and a little bit of software running under dos to use it. i'd like to make more extensive use of this device (in particular, write a driver for it on unix). so, can anyone give me a description of how to talk to this device. it connects to the system via it's own interface card. any info would help, it can't be too difficult to talk to :-) thanks, brian wallis... tusc computer systems pty. ltd. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60744">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60744" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 on my 486dx33 with the stealth 24 vlb i get 11.4 winmarks with ver. 3.11 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60745">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60745" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor. if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used. i wish i could help! i posted a similar question about two weeks ago; i got no response at all. i've asked locally at my friendly atari store. i was told that it should be possible, but that they had no idea how it might be done. nor did they particularly care to investigate. please, if anyone has _any_ suggestions, post them! you might try asking on one of the comp.sys.ibm.* echos (the best one may be comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware). i say this because the conversion seems more geared toward a pc user wanting to use that monitor, than an atari user who already can use the monitor (unless maybe they want to really go wild - converting the monitor to vga, then using it as a vga monitor with a falcon :-) as for graphics cards, assuming that the atari monitor can be modified/adapted to handle vga signals, you should probably be able to use any vga card (at least with a res around 640x400). i haven't tried this, but that would be my guess... robert anisko anisko@usdtsg.daytonoh.ncr.com ...you might want to price mono vga monitors anyways - it may be cheaper to go that route than to do the conversion; besides, with the falcon and beyond, vga/svga/multisync monitors will probably be the way to go... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60747">
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 |> hi! |> i recently purchased the toshiba 3401 cdrom. i own an adaptec 1542b |> scsi card, and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos. it one of the aspi-drivers (i think it's the aspicd) supports a /norst paramter, which means to not reset the scsi bus when it loads. this fixed the problem a friend of mine was having with his adaptec+tosh it worked!!! thank you very much! * imj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu imad "hexabyte" jureidini * * the ultimate knight, grand priest of the secrets of the undefined. * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60748">
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 this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running? my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job. lino montuno 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60752">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60752" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 pc mag only got around 9-10 winmarks when they tested the steal 24. it sounds like you are ok. if someone asks if you are a god, you say... yes! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60756">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60756" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have 2 new smc 270e arcnet cards for sale . they are brand new. $50 each wow@cup.portal.com wally waggoner 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60757">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60757" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a like new hayes jt fax for sale $125 or offer or trade! wally waggoner wow@cup.portal.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60758">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60758" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 configuration of ide harddisks last update: 14.4.1993 collected by carsten grammes (ph12hucg@rz.uni-sb.de) and published regularly on comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. there is explicitly no warranty that the given settings are correct or harmless. (i only collect, i do not check for myself!!!). there is always the possibility that the settings may destroy your hardware! since i hope however that only well-minded people undergo the effort of posting their settings the chance of applicability exists. if you should agree or disagree with some setting, let me know immediately in order to update the list. if you possess a hd not mentioned here of which you know bios and/or jumper settings, please mail them to me for the next update of the list! only ide (at-bus) harddisks will be accounted for. if not specified the landing zone should be set equal to the number of cylinders. if not specified the 'write precompensation' should be set 65535. (there are bioses that don't even ask for it). another statement (maybe right): ide harddisk don't have precomp and lzone. the precomp is a built-in parameter and lzone isn't used because most if not every ide disk has autopark. the jumpers' names are given as printed on the hd's board, often only a jumper number (jp12 means the jumper '12'). a zero means that the jumper is left open, a one means that the jumper is closed. *************************** c o n n e r *************************** conner peripherals drive geometry ide/at conner drives are low level formatted at the factory. it is only necessary to run setup, fdisk, and dos format. model heads cylinders sectors pcomp l-zone type table led cp2034 2 823 38 0 823 *ut 3 n/a cp2064 4 823 38 0 823 *ut 3 n/a cp2084 8 548 38 0 548 *ut 3 n/a cp3184 6 832 33 0 832 *ut 1 a cp3104 8 776 33 0 776 *ut 1 a cp3111 8 833 33 0 833 *ut 1 a(?) cp3204 16 683 38 0 683 *ut 2 b cp30064 4 762 39 0 762 *ut 2 b cp30084 8 526 39 0 526 *ut 2 b cp30104 8 762 39 0 762 *ut 2 b cp30084e 4 903 46 0 903 *ut 3 c cp30174e 8 903 46 0 903 *ut 3 c cp30204 16 683 38 0 683 *ut 3 c cp3304 16 659 63 0 659 *ut 3 d cp3364 16 702 63 0 702 *ut 3 d cp3504 16 987 63 0 987 *ut 3 d cp3554 16 1054 63 0 1054 *ut 3 b table 1 table 2 jumper settings jumper settings single drive = jumper act and c/d single drive = jumper c/d master drive = jumper act, c/d and dsp master drive = jumper c/d & dsp slave drive = no jumpers installed slave drive = no jumpers installed table 3 all conner 20 mbyte drives use jumper settings drive type 2. all conner 40 mbyte drives use drive type 17. single & master drive = jumper c/d slave drive = no jumpers installed *ut = universal translate. select a drive type that is close to but does not exceed the megabyte capacity of the drive. the drive will translate to the megabyte capacity that you have a: b: c: d: j-4 j-5 j-5 j-3 pin 1 = + pin 3 = + pin 3 = - pin 3 = + pin 2 = - pin 4 = - pin 4 = - pin 4 = - when i installed a conner cp3204f (203 mb) as master and a wd caviar 2200 (203 mb) as slave, both with and without the "cp" jumper, the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour. however, when doing writes to the caviar, once in a while it would overwrite directories etc. using fastback was almost the workaround is to install the caviar as the master, and the conner as the slave. *************************** f u j i t s u *************************** details of fujitsu drives m261xt (standard) m2614et m2613et m2612et m2611t heads (physical) 8 6 4 2 cyl (physical) 1334 1334 1334 1334 sec/trk 33 33 33 33 speed (rpm) 3490 3490 3490 3490 capacity 180mb 135mb 90mb 45mb psu | | cnh-2 | +--+ 1 | 1 | | . led | | | cnh-1 9 cnh-3 connector | | | 1 6..1 o o | 40-way | | . | | | ide | | . | | | 12 | pin function * 1- 2 active mode 2- 3 slave present mode 4- 5 pin 27=iochrdy cnh-1 jumpers * 5- 6 pin 27=reserved 7- 8 2 drive system * 8- 9 1 drive system 10-11 pin 29=irq14 : pin 31=reserved * 11-12 pin 31=irq14 : pin 29=reserved pin function 1- 2 slave drive mode cnh-2 jumpers * 4- 5 master drive mode 7- 8 ecc 4 bytes * 8- 9 ecc 7 bytes pin function 1- 2 write protect enabled cnh-3 jumpers * 2- 3 write protect disabled 4- 5 -6 reserved key: * (i guess!) marks factory default setting for jumper bios settings bios setting for the m2614et in my system is 667 cylinders, 33 sectors and 16 heads. i was trying to set my ide drive in the subject above to a slave drive for a conner 170mb drive and contacting the support company gave me this answer (which works). the factory default on sw2 is on off off off off off (1-6). this sets the drive to be a single drive. setting sw2 to off on on off off off makes it a slave drive. sw1 has been set to on off off on (1-4) all along. model cylinders heads sectors capacity (million bytes) m2622t 1013 10 63 326.75 m2623t 1002 13 63 420.16 m2624t 995 16 63 513.51 there are 6 switches on the switch block on these drives. only 4 of them have a use that i am aware of (from my m2624t manual): master/slave master (*) sw1-5 off slave sw1-5 on ecc bytes 4 bytes (*) sw1-4 off 7 bytes sw1-4 on write protect disabled (*) sw1-3 off enabled sw1-3 on io channel ready disabled (*) sw1-1 off enabled sw1-1 on i have no idea about the function of sw1-2 and sw1-6. the values listed with a (*) are the factory default settings. *************************** k a l o k *************************** kalok kl3100 105 mb bios: cyl 979 heads 6 sectors 35 kalok kl3120 120 mb bios: cyl 981 heads 6 sectors 40 the following jumper settings have been reported for kl3100 but are probably also valid for other kalok drives. single hd: o o o o o o o o o-o <-- same row as pin 1 of the ide connector. master (disk 1): o o o o o o o o o o slave: o o o o o o o o o o these 5 pairs of pins are at the righthand side of the disk. *************************** m a x t o r *************************** model cyls heads sectors precomp landing zone lxt-200a 816 15 32 0 816 lxt-213a 683 16 38 0 683 lxt-340a 654 16 63 0 654 lxt437a 842 16 63 0 842 lxt535a 1036 16 63 0 1024 jumpers are as follows: the bottom of the drive looks like this (well, sort of): | o o 1-2 | | o o 3-4 | | o o 5-6 | | o o 7-8 | | o o 9-10 | +[power] [ide connector]-----+ single drive dual drive system pin numbers jumper system master slave 1-2 slave drive remove remove install 3-4 activity led optional optional optional 5-6 slave present remove remove optional 7-8 master drive remove install remove 9-10 sync spindle remove (n/a) optional* remove * only one drive (the master) in an array should have this jumper installed. maxtor 7060a 16 467 17 62,0 j14 closed, j13 closed maxtor 7060a 7 1024 17 59,5 j14 open, j13 open maxtor 7060a 4 762 39 58,0 j14 closed, j13 open maxtor 7060a 8 925 17 57,9 j14 open, j13 closed maxtor 7120a 16 936 17 124,3 j14 closed, j13 closed maxtor 7120a 14 1024 17 119,0 j14 open, j13 open maxtor 7120a 8 762 39 116,0 j14 closed, j13 open maxtor 7120a 15 900 17 112,0 j14 open, j13 closed maxtor 7120a 8 824 33 106,2 j14 jumpers for the above 2 drives: j11 i/o-channel ready ( open: disabled; close: enabled ) j13 see above j14 see above j15 operation-status ( open: normal; close: factory ) j j j j j 2 1 1 1 1 0 9 8 7 6 power data-cable j16: idle mode latch ( open: disabled; close: enabled ) j17: drive model ( open: 7060a; close 7120a ) j18: ecc bytes ( open: 7 bytes; close: 4 bytes ) master/slave: drive is master and alone : j20 closed, j19 closed drive is master of two drives: j20 closed, j19 open drive is slave of two drives : j20 open , j19 closed maxtor 7213a default (power-up) at bios translation parameters (others possible) cyl hds spt mbytes 683 16 38 212 there are two sets of jumpers. a set of 5 and a set of 4. with the power and ide connector toward you, the set of 5 is numbered (left to right) j16 - j20 , and the set of 4 is numbered (bottom to top) j22-j25. the only jumper of normal interest is j20. jumper it for only drive in a single drive system, or master drive in a dual drive remove the jumper j20 for slave drive in a dual drive system. j19 is a dummy and may be used to store the spare shunt if the drive is configured for a slave mode. jumpers j17, j18, j24, j25 are factory reserved. abnormal operation may occur if jumpered. jumper 22 is sync spindle enabled/disabled (open=disabled) jumper 23 is sync slave/master (open=slave) jumper 16 is i/o channel ready (open=disabled) maxtor 7245a (245mb ide; self-parking; universal translate): drive type : user defineable cyl hds wpc lz s/t 967 16 0 0 31 (wpc and lz optional) master(2): j20 closed slave(2): j20 open (use j19 for shunt storage) single: j20 closed ********************** m i c r o p o l i s **************************** drive 2105a 2112a unformatted mb 647 1220 formatted mb 560 1050 platters 5 8 heads 8 15 cylinders 1760 1760 performance (both): track to track (read) 1.5 msec track to track (write) 2.5 msec average 10 msec max 25 msec avg rotational latency 5.56 msec rotational speed 5400 rpm (+/- 5%) data transfer rate upto 5mbytes/sec internal data rate 24-40 mbits/sec bios settings: 2105a 1084 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors 2112a* master 1024 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors slave 1010 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors * the 2112a emulates both master and slave jumpers (labelled j6 on the drive) |oo| w1\ only these 2 are used |oo| w2/ |oo| |oo| |oo| w2 w1 in in 2112a only - drive emulates both master + slave in out drive is master, slave is present out in drive is slave out out drive is master, no slave present (ie single drive) ********************** m i c r o s c i e n c e **************************** model: 7100-00 heads: 7 cylinders: 855 s/t: 35 (?) size: 105m model # 8040-00. size 40m 5hd/17sec/977cyl ********************** m i n i s c r i b e **************************** model at cap cyc h rwc wpc enc rate access spt comments 8225at 3.5" 21 745 2 - - 8 28 ms 28 8051at 3.5" 42 745 4 - - 8 28 ms 28 8450at 3.5" 42 745 4 - - 8 40 ms 28 master(2): 5-6 slave(2): 1-2 single: 1-3 (shunt storage) *************************** n e c ********************************* nec d3735, 40 mb bios: cyl 537 head 4 sect 41 nec d3755, 105 mb bios: cyl 625 head 8 sect 41 nec d3741, 44 mb bios: cyl 423 head 8 sect 26 wpcom 0 lzone 424 jumper jp12 jp13 (for all above nec drives) single 0 0 master 1 0 slave 1 1 there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave - the other way it works. *************************** q u a n t u m ************************* logical specs for quantum at drives compliments of computer brokers of canada model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors/track (mb) (ms) 40at 42 19 965 5 17 80at 84 19 965 10 17 120at 120 15 814 9 32 170at 168 15 968 10 34 210at 209 15 873 13 36 425at 426 14 1021 16 51 lps 52at 52 17 751 8 17 lps 80at 83 17 611 16 17 lps 105at 105 17 755 16 17 lps 120at 122 16 901 5 53 lps 240at 245 16 723 13 51 legend: 1=jumper installed 0=no jumper 40 & 80 at jumpers ds ss meaning 1 0 single drive configuration 1 1 master of dual drive 0 0 slave of dual drive 0 1 self-seek test 120, 170, 210 & 425 at jumpers ds sp ss meaning 0 0 0 slave when the master is quantum prodrive other than 40/80a 0 0 1 slave in prodrive 40/80a mode 0 1 0 slave when master is non quantum drive 0 1 1 not used 1 0 1 master drive pdiag mode checking dasp for slave 1 1 0 master in pdiag mode using sp to check if slave present 1 1 1 master in 40/80a mode using sp to check if slave present 1 0 0 single drive lps 52, 80, 105, 120 & 240 at jumpers ds sp dm* meaning 0 0 0 slave in standard pdiag mode for compatibility with drives that use pdiag-line to handle master/slave communications 0 0 1 slave in prodrive 40/80a mode compat. without using pdiag line 0 1 0 self test 0 1 1 self test 1 0 0 master in pdiag mode using dasp to check for slave 1 0 1 master in 40/80a mode using dasp to check for slave 1 1 0 master in pdiag mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp 1 1 1 master in 40/80a mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp * while my spec form marked the jumper name dm, it is labeled as cs on my lps 240at drive. the quantum els series: model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors/track (mb) (ms) els42at 42 - 968 5 17 els85at 85 - 977 10 17 els127at 127 - 919 16 17 els170at 170 - 1011 15 22 write precomp = 0 for all quantum drives ( probably no significance) landing zone = cylinders straps: if an els drive is master only, use ds master with slave, ds or, ds and sp in some cases slave, no strap *************************** r o d i m e ********************************* information for ro 3008a and ro 3009a series hard disk drives: drive types model cyls hds sectors/trk no. blocks formatted cap. ro3058a 868 3 34 88,536 45.33 mbyets ro3088a 868 5 34 147,560 75.55 mbyets ro3095a 923 5 34 156,910 80.33 mbyets ro3128a 868 7 34 206,584 105.77 mbyets ro3135a 923 7 34 219,674 112.47 mbyets ro3059a 217 15 28 91,158 46.67 mbyets ro3089a 325 15 28 136,737 70.00 mbyets ro3129a 492 15 28 206,645 105.80 mbyets ro3139a 523 15 28 219,735 112.50 mbyets ro3209a 759 15 28 319,053 163.35 mbyets ro3259a 976 15 28 410,211 210.02 mbyets link options in order to install the rodime ro 3000a series drives the dumpers for the single/dual drive and led operation on the drive need to be set as described in the relevant product specification. i a single drive environment the drive is described as a master. in a dual drive environment the drives are described as a master and a slave. this is due to the protocal the takes place between the two drives when performing diagnostics. there are four links, lk1, lk2, lk4 and lk5, adjacent to the 40 way interface connector. they have the following functions and are described in order as viewed from the end of the drive, with the first jumper described nearest the 40 way interface connector. lk2: led when fitted, this jumper connects the led drive to pin 39 of the interface. this allows a led to be connected to the interface. an external current limiting resistor needs to be fitted in series with the led when this option is selected. the value of the resistor will be dependant on the led type chosen but will be in the range of 130 ohms ot 220 ohms. lk1: dual drives this jumper must be fitted when two drives are attached to a single bus. it fallows communication across the 40 way interface connector, indicating, to the master drive, the presence of a slave. lk4: master when fitted this signifies that the drive jumpered is a master. if there are two drives connected on a single bus then only one may be jumpered in this way. lk5: iochrdy when fitted this connects the iochrdy signal to the drive, it is fitted when the drive is used in host systems that have a higher data transfer rate than the drive i.e. greater than 4 mbytes per second when using 1:1 interleave. this jumper is not normally fitted as most hosts transfer at a lower rate than 4 mbytes per there are four possible master/slave configurations in which a drive(s) may be jumpered: master, single drive with led on interface lk2 & lk4 fitted. master, single drive without led on interface lk4 only fitted. master, dual drive without led on interface lk4 & lk1 fitted. slave, dual drive without led on interface no jumpers fitted. master, dual drive with led on interface lk4, lk1 & lk2 fitted. slave, dual drive with led on interface lk2 only fitted. the master drive will delay power-up for approximately two seconds to reduce power surges in applications where dual drives are used. the other connections for a led will be found close to the 28 way connector at the other end of the drive. this led driver is not affected by the link options. an internal current limiting resistor is on the drive for this led driver. refer to the product specification for further *************************** s e a g a t e ************************* there is a list of most seagate hd (including mfm, scsi, esdiand ide) on every simtel mirror under /msdos/dskutl/1seagate.zip it contains info about the following drives: st1144a st138a st274a st3283a st1057a st1156a st1400a st280a st351ax st1090a st1162a st1401a st3051a st9051a st1102a st1186a st1480a st3096a st9077a st1111a st1201a st157a st3120a st9096a st1126a st1239a st2274a st3144a st9144a st1133a st125a st2383a st325ax ********************* t e a c ************** model: sd-3105 cyls. heads sect/t precmp lzone capacity physical 1282 4 40 - - 105021440 bios (ami) 641 8 40 0 0 105021440 (100.2m) (award) 926 13 17 0 0 104778752 (99.9m) (phoenix) 776 8 33 0 0 104890368 (100.0m) connectors and jumpers: +----+ 1 jumper function |....| +---+ +-------/ /---+ 2 0 0 on: -act selected (ext.led) | | |...| |::::::/ /::::| :::: off: -slv present selected +----+ +---+ +-----/ /-----+ 3 1 1 on: two hdd's j2 j7 40 j1 ---- off: single hdd power (power) signal jumpers 2 on: master (/single) off: slave (with 2 units used) 3 on: -i/o ch rdy not output off: -i/o ch rdy is output master slave settings: jumper no.: 1 2 single....: 0 1 1, on = jumpered master....: 1 1 0, off = not jumpered slave.....: 1 0 ********************* w e s t e r n d i g i t a l ************** caviar series: name size (mb) cylinders heads sectors wdac140 40.7 980 5 17 wdac280 81.3 980 10 17 wdac2120 119.0 1024 14 17 wdac2170 162.7 1010 6 55 wdac2200 202.8 989 12 35 wdac2340 325.4 1010 12 55 please note that these are the *recommended* cmos parameters. all the disks support so-called dynamic translation, and should thus be able to work with any parameters having fewer sectors than the total number of sectors on the disk. now, according to the manual, the jumper settings are as follows: jumper cp ma sl single 0 0 0 master 0 1 0 slave 0 0 1 slave with conner cp342 or cp3022 1 0 1 maybe there are 2 kinds of caviar's floating around: if your jumpers read ma sl and si then use: jumper si ma sl single 1 0 0 master 0 1 0 slave 0 0 1 there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave - the other way it works. when i installed a conner cp3204f (203 mb) as master and a wd caviar 2200 (203 mb) as slave, both with and without the "cp" jumper, the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour. however, when doing writes to the caviar, once in a while it would overwrite directories etc. using fastback was almost the workaround is to install the caviar as the master, and the conner as the slave. wd93044-a (40 mb) bios-settings 977 cyln, 5 heads, 17 sect, lzone: 977 ( wenn sie sie braucht ) +-------+ +---+---+---+ 1: drive is master | cable | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2: drive is slave +-------+ +---+---+---+ 3: second drive is a conner-drive no jumper set: this is the only drive. ******************** useful telephone numbers... ******************** miniscribe: 303-651-6000 maxtor: info/tech support: 800-262-9867 fax-back: 303-678-2618 bbs: 303-678-2222 they list their 800 number as 1(800)2-maxtor. quantum: 408-894-4000 408-944-0410 (support) 408-894-3218 (fax) 408-894-3214 (bbs) seagate: info/tech support: 408-438-8222 fax-back: 408-438-2620 bbs: 408-438-8771 ******************* last but not least ***************** if i could help you with my little collection and if you live in a part of the world far away from me, how about a postcard for my pinboard? i will surely answer! carsten grammes experimental physics b38 2og universitaet saarbruecken w-6600 saarbruecken 
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 i recently bought an amd 386/40. the motherboard booklet says the board is a "391 wb/h." i have 4 1x3 simms on board. the machine also uses a super ide i/o card (model pt-604). (of course niether the motherboard or the i/o card booklet clearly state who the manufacurers are) i'm also using a trident 8900c svga card. anyway, that's all of the pertinent info i can think of. my problem is that the computer often freezes or displays "parity error -- system halted" messages depending on whether i set the memory parity error checking to "disabled" or "enabled" in the setup of the bios (makes sense). its ami bios (so it must be an ami board?). i just took it back to the dealer and they replaced all of the simms but i keep getting the same error (more frequently now). it all worked at the dealer and didn't start screwing up 'till i got home (figures). i've tried to take out all of the simms and even re-inserted them in reverse order, making sure that the connections were solid. my suspicion jumps to this damn all in one hd controller/serial/ parallel/game-port i/o card, or to the motherboard (god forbid). can anyone help? thanks, peace, david geller gelldav@elof.acc.iit.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60761">
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 : hi! : is it possible through either pin configuration or through software : programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card? : thanks in advance! : =-dave *tigger!* : djohnson@moose.uvm.edu 'tiggers are wonderful things!' : dave c johnson i think you mean the ethernet numbers. the 8 byte ethernet id is the unique electronic serial number (esn) assigned to each ethernet board in existence. this is a "physical layer" concept. the ip address is a higher layer protocol. the analogy to telephone service is the ip address is your phone number, while the particular wire pair in the cable on the pole has some (unknown to you or i) physical identification scheme (number). but to answer your question (assuming you indeed meant the ethernet number) it is not supposed to be possible to change the number. of course the manufacturer can always retro-fit a board, but there could hardly be a reason to ever do that. if your question is actually referring to the ip address, it is most definetly changable. but it is strictly software. gordon lang 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60763">
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 |> >i'd like to add a second s3 based video card to my system. does anyone |> >know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one? |> >all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics |> >on the other. |> >probably just a configurable address would do it. |> for what it's worth (i haven't confirmed it), a diamond tech-rep told |> me that all s3-based video cards use port addresses 0x2e0 and 0x2e8. |> if this is true, it appears that you cannot use more than one s3 card |> in your system. actually there is an s3-based card on the market that supports multiple adapters in one system. unfortunately, it is vl-bus only (they may have an isa version by now...?) from a company called metheus. the address and phone number is: metheus corp ogc science park 1600 nw compton dr. beaverton, or 97006-6905 (503)-690-1550 be aware, this is a very high-end card, capable of 4mb of vram, so it does not come cheap. but, i have personally seen two of these boards running a dual screen windows 3.1. |> lance hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) |> yes, that is a '%' (percent sign) in my network address. |> all statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author |> and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter. mark hall intergraph corporation huntsville, al mhall@habu.b11.ingr.com (205) 730-6145 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60764">
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 cyrix have released a 386 pin-conpatible 486 clone. designed to upgrade old 16 & 20mhz 386's the chips are also clockdoubling. thus a 16mhz 386 can be transformed into a 32mhz 486, with a single chip upgrade. unfortunately in australia the dru2 sells for $700a (16mhz) and $1000a (20mhz), about 1.5x the price of a 486dx33 motherboard with two vlb slots!!! how much do these thing cost in the states? how well do they work? thanks for any info, steven pemberton \o/ 486 notebook sjp@ogre.apana.org.au / \ os/2 2.0 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60767">
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 i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar 280 drive. is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow me to fix it? i am no expert on this. but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this. ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives. when you low level format it, the information itself is gone as well, i don't think you can get it back unless you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60768">
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 just poke out the little pins in the connector, and then replace them in the correct slots. is this reverisible? you can unpoke as easy as you poke? yep. i've done this, too. the trick is to use a tiny screwdriver and push down on the "latch" of each pin and then pull it out of the connector. label each one first with tape so you don't get them confused after you've pulled them out. compare the pinout tables in the mitsumi and soundblaster manuals to get the correct orientation. arlen martin at&t att!attme!stcarm 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60772">
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 i have a new monitor which i set up approximately 3-4 feet from where the ac power enters my house - at my fuse box. is this safe for the monitor, or will/can the emf emitted by the ac current eventually affect my monitor? if so, how, and is the damage permanent or would degaussing fix it? tom catalino 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60775">
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 i am very serious about the purchase of a 486dx-33 that uses the orchid vlb mother board, the system also has the vlb ide and fahrenheit video board in it. i haven't seen or heard any bad comments about this board! does anyone out there have any comments good or bad about this board? i am considering this board primarily because of orchid's reputation and long standing in the field. thanks for any and all comments. bob jones 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60779">
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 hi everyone, i have a question regarding my stack on my pc. i am programming in turbo c 3.0 and my program is rather large (model large too). i keep getting errors that i am running out of memory after a while of running the program. when i compile the program, it says i have 4.45 meg of ram so i can't seem to explain why it crashes. all it is doing is running in a loop while the operator is idle and after a while of sitting, it will screw up all the variables. this leads me to believe that my stack is filling up and overflowing. does the program take memory up when it is calling void functions that do not return anything?? i have been working on this problem for days and i would really appreciate any responce. if this is not the correct newsgroup, i will gladly re-post, but this is the only i could find. thanks in advance, sean mars email mars@carroll1.cc.edu carroll college waukesha, wi 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60780">
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 you unfortunately failed to mention if the error occurs with the parity error checking enabled or disabled. i assume you mean it gives you a parity error when it's enabled, and not when it's disabled. how high will the count go on the memory check at boot-up before this error occurs? does the system beep at all; if so what's the pattern of beeps? the error could be occuring in cache memory (not so likely) or video memory, as well as the simms. the fact that you have ami bios is not conclusive in determining the board manufacturer either. boards are made by thousands of small taiwanese companies (among others) that buy the name brand chips and put them together with some simm sockets to make your board. i tend to doubt your problem is with your ide controller, also. anyway, perhaps if you answer those questions someone can help you out better. boltz@vivaldi.psu.edu mrb118@psuvm.psu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60781">
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 i have a st138 rll hard drive and i have just got another 32m hard drive. the controller in my machine is a wd-1002-27x. can a kind soul please mail me or tell me how to get jumper settings for that i really appreciate this. thanks in advance. "look ma! no .signature!" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60783">
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 : hello : i've got an old trident 8800cs svga card, but lacking suitable drivers : for windows 3.1. the drivers for the 8900 series seem to be incompatible. : does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers? address for an : ftp-site would be nice. : thanks in advance : jouni : _______________________________________________________________________________ : jouni marttila - yo-kyl{ 11 b 25, 20540 turku, finland - +358 21 374624____ : jmarttila@abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila - jjmartti@utu.fi__ : pgp-key available via finger jmarttila@abo.fi ___________________________ you can find the drivers at wuarchive.wustl.edu in the /msdos/windows3 sub- directory. i think the files are called "tvgawin31a.zip" and "tvgawin31b.zip." those are the latest drivers available as far as i know. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60786">
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 hello all- i have a problem with my micro solutions backpack- sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. i will either start a backup, or start a tape format, and at about 20 percent i get an error either saying the tape is bad or the backup/format has aborted for an unknown reason. if i turn everything off and wait a half hour it works fine. is it because the tape backup is too warm? has anyone had similar experiences? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60788">
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 : >a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn : >and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i486 : >clones has been thrown out, making it legal for amd to ship in the us. : yep, this was on the news. great news for consumers. bad news : for intel. their stock dropped quite a chunk with the announcement. scott linn scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60790">
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 hello world. in posts i've heard about all of the bugs in the dss24x and the drivers. now i hear that diamond ships bios replacements to some people, that fixes a lot of problems as well as new drivers. can anyone tell me how to get mine? thanks in advance poe@wharton.upenn.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60792">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60792" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running? my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job. it first depends on what an idle cpu is doing! i'm not sure about dos, but many multitasking oss have an loop like this loop: is there anything to do? yes -> do it; goto loop no -> goto loop the cpu is not doing any work but it is still processing instructions... i've done some asic and digital design, but not any cpu design. it would seem to me that on a 486, the fpu is not being used, most of the cache is not being accessed, the off chip buffers/drivers are idle, the multiplier isn't multiplying, the barrel shifters aren't shifting, microcode isn't microcoding, etc. this means transistors aren't switching which means less power dissipated (in cmos), which means less heat.\ from what i understand, the pentium shuts down those sections of the cpu which aren't being used in order to cut down on heat/power. dennis lou || "but yossarian, what if everyone thought that way?" dlou@ucsd.edu || "then i'd be crazy to think any other way!" [backbone]!ucsd!dlou |+==================================================== dlou@ucsd.bitnet |steve jobs and steve wozniak went to my high school. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60795">
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 : >recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive (a seagate 210mb, : >i can look up the model number if it's important) and i've been : >trying to help him install it. [i've got a vested interest, since : >my machine's busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed.] : >he already has a seagate 85mb ide hd (again, i forget the model number : >but i can find out.) : >anyway, i can't seem to get the bloody thing up. i've managed to get : >one or the other drive up (with the other disconnected), but not both : >at the same time; whenever i try, the thing hangs during bootup - : >never gets past the system test. the ide controller's instruction : >sheet says it supports two drives; i think i've configured the cmos : >correctly; the power's plugged in properly; i even learned about the : >master/slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have (didn't : >know pcs were into s&m! 8^) and i think i configured the jumpers : >properly (the 85mb one is the master, the new 210mb one is the slave). [deleted] : >many, many thanks in advance! this is practically an emergency (i have : >two papers to do on this thing for monday!)! help! : >william barnes suranet operations : >wbarnes@sura.net (301) 982-4600 voice (301) 982-4605 fax : >disclaimer: i don't speak for suranet and they don't speak for me. : i've been told by our local computer guru that you can't do this unless you : perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system : up for two hard drives from the beginning. i took him at his word, and i : have not tried to find out any more about it, because i'm not going to back : everything up just to add another hdd. if anyone knows for sure what the : scoop is, i would like to know also. thanks in advance also. : bill willis 1. do not do a low level format on an ide drive unless you have the executable for doing so supplied by the manufacturer. these are available from bbs's or mail but the mail version costs a nominal 2. in addition to the master/slave jumper on an ide drive there is also another jumper to indicate whether a slave is present. get it right! 3. the cabling is not an issue as long as pin 1 goes to pin 1 goes to pin 1. no twisting or swapping on an ide cable. be sure of pin 1 on all three components - do not make assumptions (guesses are ok but assumptions are bad). 4. if the cable and jumpers are correct, and the cmos setup is correct, then you may have to do an fdisk followed by a high level format. i have never personally found this necesary, but perhaps there is something gone wrong with the data on the disks? probably not but i understand your predicament - you will probably throw salt over your shoulders, wear funny clothes and do a spooky sounding chant while dancing around the room if someone said it might help. good luck gordon lang 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60798">
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 1) what is a 16550 uart? i don't know the exact meaning of uart, but i think it is something like universal arithmetic receiver transmitter. normally, the older boards have a 8250 or 16450 uart on board. those chips generate an irq for every char they received. the 16550 uart has an internal 16 byte buffer, so - with the right software installed - it generates an irq every 16 chars. 2) what does it do for high-speed modems? 3) is it necessary for 14.4k or higher throughput? if you ran dos, you don't need a 16550, because dos runs only one task at a time and the whole cpu-power could be used for the transfer. but if you are running a multitasking os such as os/2, unix, etc. ( windows ? :-) ), the cpu cannot work the whole time with one task. the result are lost characters or broken transmissions because of timeouts. 4) is it only for internal modems? no. the only diffrence is that internal modems have the uart on board, whereas external modems are connected to the computer over a serial port which has the uart on board. if you have any experience with 9600 or higher speed modems, please let me know what you think. also, any particular brand name reccomended, or will a cheapo clone do just a well? i use a zyxel1496b with a 16550uart under coherent 4.0. i'm very satisfied with it but i think that nearly everyone is satisfied with his own modem. * michael@jester.gun.de * michael gerhards * preussenstrasse 59 * * germany 4040 neuss * voice: 49 2131 82238 * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60799">
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 trying to establish a network (lan) here that could use 2 different printers. panasonic kxp2124 for printing receipts and okidata ol400 for letters etc. is it at all possible in this world ? this is a fundamental aspect of novell's business; they wouldn't be where they are if they didn't live up to their "novell does printing" slogan. we run 6 printers of varying types off our novell network; i'm sure there are places with hundreds. rtfm on the capture command, printcon, pserver, and the sections of the windows 3.1 manual which cover network printing. if you haven't bought novell's products yet, rephrase your question and look for information about how *well* various competitors do printing. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60800">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60800" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 recently, i have been getting a cmos checksum error when i first turn on my computer. it doesn't happen everytime i turn it on, nor can i predict when it is going to happen. i have an ami bios and all of the setting are lost, for example the drive types and the password options. however, the date and time remain correct. if anyone knows what can be causing this, please let me know. most likely reason is that your backup battery is failing - this battery maintains the contents of the cmos memory when ac power is turned off, and if the battery is flakey then the contents of the cmos will be lost and the checksum will be wrong (along with most other of the cmos data). try replacing the battery. if, however, your pc doesn't use a battery but a large capacitor to power the cmos, you should check to see if you can replace the capacitor with a more normal lithium battery. if this isn't possible, make sure you leave your pc on for a half hour or hour each day; this will keep the capacitor charged. i'd opt for the battery change, though. it's also possible, but unlikely that a rogue problem or even a virus is corrupting the cmos. if your battery seems okay, get a virus scanner and check out your system. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60801">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60801" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> gateway 2000 has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems. |> because i'm such a nice person, i uploaded them to wuarchive.wustl.edu. look |> for glb05.exe in the msdos_uploads section. enjoy! i have several questions: 1) what do i gain with this new bios? 2) how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back? 3) how do i install the new bios? i'd like to enjoy, but need answers first. bill volz chevron petroleum technology co. earth model/interpretation & analysis division. p.o. box 446, la habra, ca 90633-0446 phone: (310) 694-9340 fax: (310) 694-7063 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60803">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60803" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am asked to design a video-aid system for teacher to show their students how to work their way round in windows. i have seen people using video projector, tv set and large size monitor as thrir display for presentations. i am told that there are three ways to connect to a video projector: composite, y/c & rgb. can anyone explain to me the different between the three and the likely cost for each of them? i would also like to know if there are telnet or kermit for windows. please reply to me via e-amil as well as bulletin. my internet account is u129008@sparc20.ncu.edu.tw tim chen 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60805">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60805" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there. we just bought a 486 dx2/66 gateway system with a 2 meg ati ultra pro video card. everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for 800x600 24 bit, and 800x600 and 1024x768 16 bit modes. the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup, and within minutes of use, everything on the screen is totally unintelligible. naturally, i called gateway tech support to inquire about this. the technician asked me about the drivers, and i told him it was version 1.5, build 59. he told me that the 16 and 24 bit drivers for this is pure bull. i've had the 24 bit mode (640x480 and 800x600) working since the version before 59 (??55??). bld 59 added the 24 bit option to flexpanel. try getting the drivers from ftp.cica.indiana.edu or wuarchive. the ati ultra pro simply do not work!!! is this true? if so, i'm simply amazed. how could this be? the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here (unless the subject has made the faq!!!). gateway 486 dx2/66 local bus 16 megs ram scsi hd & cd-rom ultrastor 34f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with 2mb vram dos 6.0 windows 3.1 mach 32 drivers version 1.5 (build 59) mine is: gateway 486 dx2/50 lb 8 megs ram ide hd ati gup w/ 2mb (installed upgrade myself) bld 59 drivers. cannon@lobby.ti.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60806">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60806" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 "these lpt1, com1, disk controller are call devices. there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership, eg. disk controller (i6) and keyboard (i1). there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership, ie. it will share an interrupt with another device, eg. lpt1" no. in a standard isa bus, the one that almost all non-laptop pcs use, two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt. this is due to a screwup in the bus design. for example, if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number 7, then it must hold a certain bus wire to 0 or 1 at all times, depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt. this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7. when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt, it's because they're implemented by a single card. interesting. would you care to explain to me then, how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq 7 successfully? i assure you that they are both set to irq 7 and that i have no problem. my computer is a dtk 286-12 ibm clone. paul bartholomew pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60807">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60807" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 has anyone (successfully) put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system? i would like to know as well, since i just bought a 200mb seagate ide drive and want to add it to my computer (a four-year-old gateway 386/20), which currently has an 80mb seagate scsi drive. the scsi controller is such that the docs told me not to specify it in the cmos setup, i.e. both hard drive settings are listed as "not installed," and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders. i wondering if this is a problem. also, i remember how, when i helped my cousin install his second ide drive, we had to define a master/slave relationship for them; do i need to do something similar here? i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the _boot_ drive. same here. any help would be appreciated, since i intend to install this drive asap; i'd like to know what to do (and what not to do) before i start. thanks! i have been using both ide (or mfm) and scsi drives for years. i have 2 ide and 1 scsi on one system and the other with 2 ide, 2 scsi disk, and 1 scsi cdrom. i currently using always in2000 scsi card, but i also have a future domain, a western digital scsi card, and i work with an adaptic before. as i recall, all these cards can support boot and floppy drive. however, to use with other controller (ide, mfm...) the boot drive has to be the ide (or mfm). you can not boot from the scsi if you have other controller in the system. if you guys only have 2 drives (1 ide, 1 scsi). just set up the ide in your cmos setup. make sure you can boot from it. then, set up the scsi controller (irq, dma, etc). set the scsi drive to id 0. just plug and play for all the cards i seen so far. only if you have more than 2 drives then you need driver for the third drive and so on. if you have more question, email me, i will try to answer it. good luck! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60809">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60809" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 |> what a weekend... :( ... i replaced my motherboard, upgraded to dos 6, ms |> windows 3.1, and now experience lockups in any windows application using the |> modem. |> 386dx/dxl-40 cpu (amd?) |> ami bios |> i/o card with 2 serial, 1 parallel and 1 game ports (generic cheapo) |> ide controller (two hd, two fd) |> internal packard bell 2400 modem |> mouse |> the mouse is set to com1, irq4 (via jumper on the i/o board and parms on the |> mouse driver). the modem is set to com2, irq3 (jumpers on modem board). in |> addition, i think i have disabled the second serial port on the i/o card since |> it is unused. mouse works fine. |> here's the deal: procomm dos version works fine through the modem. |> procomm for windows, (cim) compuserve for windows, and |> terminal all lockup when i try to do anything with the |> modem. the screen just freezes, no sound comes from the |> modem, nor any messages on the screen. |> i'm getting real frustrated. could the second port on the i/o card still be |> enabled? would this cause a problem? i've been through most of the software |> routes, so i'm beggining to believe that maybe this is a hardware problem. |> anybody been through a similar experience? anybody have any ideas i could try?? |> please??? |> thanks in advance.... |> n a stassen lantz i ran into the same problem when i upgraded from a 2400 modem to a 14400 modem. any time i give the modem a reset command [atz] while, in windows. the computer locks up. if i give the atz command in dos, it will work. my solution was to not give the modem the [atz] command thru windows. in the procomm + install process i told the program i have a hayes compatible 2400 modem. atz was not included in the initialization string & it works fine. i called ms about this, & they didn't have a clue as to what the memory/interupt conflict could be. the lockup accures using any windows comm program that gives the atz 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60810">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60810" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have been told by several people that sony data cartridges don't quite cut it in the jumbo 250 tape drive (lots of bad blocks). if you're using sony tape, try switching to something else -- like maybe 3m. -- mike 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60811">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60811" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there, i have a problem here, i've lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard. can someone email me the files, or let me know if plus development (were they bought out by quantum?) has a bbs or phone #? i have a hardcard ii xl50. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60812">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60812" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 which 486 cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs, a 486-66 dx2 or a 486-50 dx? 486dx2/66 is faster for this if you are using dos. pc mag reviewed a bunch of 486dx2/66 and a 486dx50 and the486dx2/66 was faster... the review was in the last month of two. thanks in advance, chris teague guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60813">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60813" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> gateway 2000 has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems. |> because i'm such a nice person, i uploaded them to wuarchive.wustl.edu. look |> for glb05.exe in the msdos_uploads section. enjoy! i have several questions: 1) what do i gain with this new bios? 2) how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back? 3) how do i install the new bios? i'd like to enjoy, but need answers first. 1) it fixes some problems with microprose games. after leaving f-15 iii it would, in vain, try to find a floppy in drive a:. this has been fixed. i don't know what other corrections were made. 2) it comes with an image of the original, in case things don't work. 3) download glb05.exe. format a bootable floppy disk, and don't put a config.sys or autoexec.bat. run the self extracting archive so all the files explode to the disk. run the file fsh.exe. it should be self-explanatory from p.s.: i was feeling extraordinarily generous once again, so i uploaded the file to ftp.cica.indiana too.. daniel matthew coleman | internet: dcoleman@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu -----------------------------------+---------- : dcoleman@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu the university of texas at austin | decnet: utxvms::dcoleman electrical/computer engineering | bitnet: dcoleman@utxvms [.bitnet] 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60814">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60814" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 we are doing a research about a passive dynamic vision guided completed the first theoric part, we have to make the effective realization of this vehicle. we need the necessary hardware for image acquisition from a videocamera and for their subsequent elaboration (tipically: edge detection). we ask for informations about available products in the market for this purpose (in real time, 20-25 frames/second). hence we need frame-grabber cards and/or dsp cards for sun or pc platform. we are also very interested in receiving comments and suggestions from users of these cards, especially about programming tools. furthermore we are looking for the same kind of informations about digital controlled pan&tilt devices. thanks in advance best regards enrico fedrigo fedro@paola.dei.unipd.it 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60816">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60816" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm planning to buy a computer and i like tc's ads. can you tell anything about the company and their computers? also, if anyone has a company they would prefer, please let me know. carlisle thacker miami, fl 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60817">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60817" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 386dx clone, with a dtc esdi controller and toshiba 660 drive. since installing dos 6.0, when i tried to re-install software 5 1/4 or 3 1/2 disks, when i mount the second..third..fourth disks, dos doesn't recognize that i have changed floppies. if i do a "dir", i see contents of the previous diskette. the only way to get dos to recognize diskettes have changed, is to do a "label", and then to not label them. buying dos 6.0 has been a colossal mistake. dos 5.0 was stable, and well with my equipment. i have superstor pro, and desqview/x ( with manifest, etc), so there aren't any features of dos 6 that i am using. i i should roll back to dos 5.0 but i am wary of what will happen when i do it. besides, like a fool, i don't have a dos 5. bootable disk anymore. i've made the same mistakes i caution my users not to make. like sheep, i the crowd flocking to dos 6. baaa baaad system administrator. phillip culver silicon graphics inc mtn. view, ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60819">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60819" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need to duplicate a bunch of floppy disks (3.5") and ideally would like to be able to keep 2 to 4 floppies busy simultaneously on a single pc. [yes, i know that services to do this exist.] i know that standard isa bus floppy controllers can only have one drive active at a time. i know that some controllers are available that can handle 4 floppies with serialized access. i know that microchannel machines can keep more than one floppy active simultaneously. but does anyone have a controller for an isa bus pc that can simultaneously keep 2 to 4 floppies going? how about for an eisa machine? if the limitation is a software limitation, i can work around that by using os/2 1.3 on my pc-286. new or used, i'm interested. orville r. weyrich, jr. weyrich computer consulting certified data processor pob 5782, scottsdale, az 85261 certified systems professional voice: (602) 391-0821 certified computer programmer internet: orville@weyrich.com no freedom without responsibility. uucp: uunet!weyrich!orville 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60820">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60820" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one i already had. my problem is this. my system only had a ide cable for one drive, so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors on it, and consequently have to switch cables. the problem is, the new hard drive's manual refers to matching pin 1 on the cable with both pin 1 on the drive itself and pin 1 on the ide card. but for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug in the cable to align these. secondly, the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them. i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into the drives. does it matter which i plug into the "master" drive and which into the "slave"? any help appreciated. thanks... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60821">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60821" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have an old ibm pc-xt motherboard which has two banks of dip switches (eight switches per bank). i need to know which switch is required to install a hard disk. does anyone have any archived documentation that would help me? thanks -jim- jimd@cae.prds.cdx.mot.com | jim duda email (x.400) ljd009@email.mot.com | | motorola codex a.k.a. jimd@cae.prds.cdx.mot.com | | m/s c3-100 voice 617-821-7845 | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60825">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60825" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 build 59 causes 2 exceptions when i exit windows. in fact, i have had this happen on all builds after 44, which shipped with my gateway system. am i doing something wrong, or is this problem commonly bob hofkin 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60827">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60827" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 stupid question from a new ibm pc user: i'm going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway 2000. what is the difference between ide hd and scsi hd? the gw 486dx-33v comes with a 250mb western digital ide drive. i asked how much more for the seagate 500mb scsi drive. the guy asked me "why are you going with scsi?". i was lost for an answer. i just said "i know seagate better as a company, from a satisfaction point of view". are scsi drives faster than ide? i'm not buying my gw for another 4 months or so, but this is a question that has bugged me for a while. - tom n. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60830">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60830" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 386 clone, and an internal modem set to com4. it worked fine until i upgraded to dos 6.0 and at the same time reloaded windows 3.1 now the system can't find com4; msd says com4 is "n/a", and three of my four comm programs say "hardware not present" or some similar error message. procomm, however, finds the modem no problem and works fine! curiouser and curiouser. any hints/help? thanks. m14494@mwvm.mitre.org * these are my opinions only.* 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60831">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60831" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i also am having a problem with com4 on a g2k system. i have a gateway 2k 486dx/33 system with the ati ultrapro video card (identical to the system mentioned in the original posting, except 33mhz instead of 66). for some reason, the system refuses to recognize com4. for example, if i configure the on-board (motherboard) com ports for com1/com2, everything is fine; if i configure them for com3/com4, com3 works ok, but com4 is not recoznized. the diagnostics shipped with the system, the msd utility windows all act as if the port isn't there. it's not an irq conflict, because i can swap the irqs for com3 and com4, and com3 still works (and com4 still doesn't). i actually noticed this problem when trying to install 2 additional ports (a boca high speed 2s/1p card). the behavior with the boca card was exactly the same (e.g. it would work as com1, com2, or com3, but not as com4). this has the smell of an i/o port conflict, but i can't imagine with what. there are no other expansion cards installed in the machine other than the video card, and gateway would have to be pretty stupid to have the on-board com4 conflict with something else on the motherboard! has anybody else had this problem? i ran into this about six months ago. my system is a gw2000 486dx/66v, 8 megs ram, 1meg ati gup vlb. it seems the problem is that the ati graphics ultra pro card consumes the com4 port for some reason, so only com1-3 are available. i believe this is documented somewhere in the system manuals, but i can't recall where. dave peterschmidt 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60834">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60834" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi all, of late my computer's power supply fan has begun to make a lot of noise. what can i do about this? if i had to get new power supply, or get a new case, where is a good place selling good tower cases and ps. i know there are a couple dozen listed in the computer shopper, but i was looking for personal experiences and recommendations. "live long, and then die a slow and horrible death ...." - what confucius wanted to say .... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60835">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60835" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 which 486 cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs, a 486-66 dx2 or a 486-50 dx? thanks in advance, chris teague 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60837">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60837" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need info regarding a miniscribe 3.5" half-height drive. there is a sticker on it with the following, model hda pcba unique tda 8425f 09aa 03ab 03aa - but the sticker on the biggest chip on the mfm interface has this, model pcba tda fxx 03ab what is the spec of the drive (# of cyl, heads, etc)? how fast is this drive? can i use it as a rll drive? i also have a scsi interface that seems to match all the connectors for this drive. it has this description, model pcba e-p tda axx 01a 29a can i replace the mfm interface by the scsi interface and use the drive as a scsi drive? what would the drive size be? there is a set of jumpers on the scsi interface with "6sel" besides it. what is the use of it? could someone also send me specs for seagate st4096 (5" full-height) drive? my e-mail is zhang@whbws.ms.ornl.gov 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60839">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60839" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 *** on 04-19-93 03:53, wayne mcdougall had the unmitigated gall to say this: wm> the software is netware 286 level ii and i can see burnt on to the wm> screen sft netware 286 level ii v2.0a. however, to configure netware wm> for level ii (mirrored or duplexed disks) requires a second disk, yes? yes. mirroring requires a controller that is capable of writing to two disks at once. duplexing, which is the preferred way of mirroring, uses two controller cards and two disk drives. duplexing requires a special card and two identical disk drives (in most cases). duplexing can sometimes be pulled off with slightly different drives/controllers, as long as the sizes are the same. wm> so how is the novell server 286a normally configured? the configuration is completely up to the user. wm> 1. can i install sft netware 286 level ii v2.0a as level i, or is this wm> what is causing my serialization error? if you only have one disk, then you can't use level ii sft. however, the osobj disk has a serial number on it, and if this disk is for a different version of netware then you would get a serialization error. make sure that this disk actually belongs to the rest of the set of floppies in the netware installation set. wm> 2. is the novell server 286a normally equipped with two hard drives, wm> one of which has failed? two drives could be either two netware volumes at sft i, or one volume mirrored using sft ii. impossible to tell with the network being down. wm> 3. would this mean i can not install the network software because it wm> will not be serialized for this hardware with a failed drive? try disconnecting the failed drive, using a standard disk controller, and installing the software as one volume under sft i. if the software will install, and if the one disk is functional, then it should be able to work in this configuration. wm> 4. what else can cause a serialization error? see the comment concerning the serial number on the osobj installation wm> 5. what happens if the keycard fails? what is the keycard attached to? ... line noise provided by south central bell! --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60840">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60840" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 *** on 04-19-93 04:09, john bongiovanni had the unmitigated gall to say this: suddenly, the date no longer rolls over. the time is (reasonably) accurate allways, but we have to change the date by hand every morning. this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos. jb> did i once hear that in order for the date to advance, something, like jb> a clock, *has* to make a get date system call? apparently, the clock jb> hardware interrupt and bios don't do this (date advance) jb> automatically. the get date call notices that a "midnight reset" flag jb> has been set, and then then advances the date. when a program uses a dos call to get the system, it resets the flag that tells the bios that it has passed midnight. it then uses this flag to increment the date. if the menu does a call to the system to get the time before midnight, before the bios sees the midnight flag, then bios will not know that the day passed and the date will not get updated. i might have some dos's and bios's mixed up (darned cold messed up my brains) but this has been a well documented problem for years. i don't know of a workaround. hope this helps! ... two most common elements in the universe: hydrogen & stupidity. --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
</context>
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60841">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60841" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 *** on 04-20-93 21:25, larry henson had the unmitigated gall to say this: lh> hello, i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone. lh> i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this. how lh> can you adjust baud, parity, etc. to fit the system? i tried mode, but lh> it did not work. if anyone can help, post of e-mail. thanx. lpt ports don't recognize baud, parity, etc. settings. you might be tring to connect a serial printer to a parallel port. try this: attach the serial port of the printer to a serial port on the pc. use the mode command to set the com port settings. try c>mode com1,9600,n,8,1 to set the port parameters. then use the mode command to redirect the printer port lpt1 like this: c>mode lpt1=com1 this should work. good luck! ... time flies like an arrow. fruit flies like a banana. --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
</context>
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60843">
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 *** on 04-21-93 04:50, r.x. getter had the unmitigated gall to say this: rg> this may be a dumb question, but i need to put a hard drive on my rg> father's pc/xt, either mfm, rll, or ide. i know how to hook it up, but rg> how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive. on my 386, you rg> set it in the bios, but i doubt that's how it's done on an xt. i most xt ide controllers are responsible for keeping track of the drive geometry and getting the information to the computer. the controller may come with software to update its on-board bios, or may be designed to work with a particular drive. seagate drives usually have special controllers for use on xt's, and these are tailored to the drive. also, you cannot low-level format an ide drive. the low-level format is stored on specal magnetic areas on the disk surface called "servos" (not like the electronic use of the term) that need a higher recording bias than the drive's recording heads can generate. don't try to low-level format an ide drive! ... p.e.t.a. people for the eating of tasty animals --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60848">
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 hi all. i've been installing a new hard drive recently and have run into several terms that i'm not sure about. 1.) hard sectored/soft sectored -- what's the difference? how do i know which to use? 2.) head skew & cylinder skew -- i understand that these are related to performance... how do i know what's optimal? my drive is an esdi drive, if that makes a difference in discussing these terms. any info/help is greatly appreciated! (carlson@ucunix.san.uc.edu) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60849">
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 is it possible to put more than 1 controller in a pc. by this i mean of different types. ie. rll and mfm. if so how do you access the drives in the cmos setup. do they just show up to be configured or do you have to do low level writes to the controller. as an example put 1 rll controller with 2 drives in a machine. put a mfm controller and 2 more drives connected to it. i now have 4 drives with 2 controllers of different types. also can you put 2 controllers of the same type into a pc and again how do you access i was asked this question and never tried to do it so if anyone has done this and can supply me with info i would very pleased thanx in advance for any info... ***** philip r. spagnolli actor@telerama.pgh.pa.us ***** aliases: actor, mentor, poet, relfkin ***** hobbies: rpg, writing, computers, acting, reading, philosophy, mudding ***** disclaimer: since i can only know my own existance i can offend no one. 
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 hi: i need some advice (opinions?) regarding which pc would best suit my needs! i want to use this (proposed) beast for basically four things: - editing documents using wordperfect 5.1 (under dos) - creating graphs/analyzing data using sigmaplot v5.0 (under dos) - editing/playing with images using aldus photostyler, running under windows 3.1 - these images can be large, say 2k x 2k, 24bits/pixel - using the pc as an xterminal, running desqview/x 1.1 and sun pc-nfs, talking to our network of sparcstation's - this is where a lot of the images/data come from, and is the most demanding of these tasks. i've read, read, read pc magazines, performed benchmarks, read this newsgroup, and decided that a "nice" system (price/performance) would be: 486dx-50 256k cache, isa, vlb, 16meg ram ati graphics ultra pro, 2 meg ram, local bus 15" monitor, 1280x1024 ni 3com etherlink iii 16bit maxtor 240mb ide hard drive however, the parts don't fit! our local retailer apparently put one of these together, only to discover that the ati card wouldn't run at 50mhz - surprise surprise. actually, after reading this group, i'm surprised that they even have a 50mhz local bus running... i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a 486dx2-66 with isa and vlb, or, a 486dx-50 with eisa and no vlb (and thus the non-local bus version of the ati card). which is better, keeping in mind that i'm primarily interested in the last two tasks? any help would be greatly appreciated! (i need to decide quickly, so any speedy help would be appreciated even more!!) btw: we have a system now to perform these tasks, it has the following configuration: 486dx-33 64k cache, isa, 8 meg ram ati graphics ultra+, 2 meg ram 14" monitor, 1024x768 ni smc ethercard 8 bit maxtor 120mb ide hard drive we're quite happy with the ati card - very fast, once the data gets to it!! ~slow~ repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen, or been uncovered! there doesn't seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview/x! its sluggish running the local window manager. also, many functions under photostyler take a long time (even when the images fit entirely in ram). there's not enough memory in the system - desqview/x and a 1 meg smartdrive don't leave much room for other apps. photostyler will page to disk with medium size images. i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates. this machine sustains only 120k/sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain 600k/sec on the same network. going to the 16 bit version of the smc card increases transfer rates to 160k/sec - still very slow (especially when moving large images). is there such a thing as a local-bus ethernet card coming?? will it make a difference? i'm hoping so, and leaning towards the 486dx2-66 choice (above), for that reason. also, are there dx2-100's on the horizon? what about dx3-99's? dx3-150's ???! any information is greatly appreciated. ross mitchell, imaging research lab, | rmitch@irus.rri.uwo.ca john p. robarts research institute | p.o. box 5015, 100 perth drive | office: (519) 663-3833 london, ontario, canada n6a 5k8 | home: (519) 657-4437 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60853">
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 i have a gateway with a 3.5 floppy. the drive only reads files it wrote to the floppy. floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable. also, 3.5 floppies that were written by this defective floppy drive a long time ago are also unreadable. this sounds like a head alignment problem. how does one go about fixing it? are there alignment screws that you can adjust? thanks in advance for your responses. a friend of mine had the same problem, it turned out that his floppy was set up as a 5 1/4 1.2mb drive instead of 3.5 1.44mb..... might help... crowley |'just remember i'll have known that, deep down srg055@uk.ac.coventry.cck |inside, you were just enough of a bastard to be __________________________ worth liking.'__________________________________ 
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 .. actually from alistair scott afs@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au i have come across a old external hard disk and i can't find any specs for it anywhere... it is made by nec (yes i tried tech support.... no help), and it has a model number apc-h27c and is labelled "expansion hard disk" can anyone help me out with figuring out what this beast is. the external connector looks like a scsi plug, and the date on the drive chassis is 1984... os it's pretty old. i just want to see what it is, before i deep six it or rip it apart for bits. afs@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60855">
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 i am trying to setup two seagate tech. hard drives as master and slave in the same system... what i need to do such is the jumper schematics of the two hard drives that i have... my two seagate hd: st3144a, 124mb st3283a, 233mb i need the jumpter setting schematics for these two harddrives... thanx for you help in advance... --aj. ajp39368@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu an ideal wife is the woman who has an ideal husband! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60856">
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 the temp on my 486dx2/66 is over 96c (measured with a k-type thermocouple and fluke 55 dig thermometer). this is an "idle" temp - not doing lots of bus i/o, not doing floating point, not doing 32-bit protected mode etc. this is in a micron computer, without heatsink. i recently put a heatsink/fan on the chip, but i might take the fan off. it makes a horrible whine at times, and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc... rob scholten scholten@epg.nist.gov 
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 many (all?) xt drive controllers have their own bios on board to handle low- level formatting. the bios also allows you to set up the drive properly (# of cylinders/heads/etc). -- andy robinson@cs.psu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60861">
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 i'm in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix 1.10 (got a new hard disk, discovered my bios doesn't have a "type 47") and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things. so, can anybody help me out on this quest? pick up a copy of pc magazine or byte, and look in the classifieds and small-print ads in the back. there are a handful of shops that specialize in bios upgrades. mike schuster | schuster@panix.com | 70346.1745@compuserve.com ------------------- | schuster@shell.portal.com | genie: mschuster 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60863">
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 hello all! i recently acquired a cd-rom drive, a mitsumi (mfg. feb/93) [hey, it was free :-) ] i'm quite pleased with the performance, but it seems to crash a lot when i use playcd.exe that came with it a desqview 2.31 - thoughts? this mainly happens when my bbs is running in the background and i load the program up.. if i load the program, it doesn't crash, and i start the disk, stop the program and start the bbs its ok, but otherwise i have big problems.. (ie, they can only be solved with a cold boot). if -anybody- can mail me to help me, i would be eternally grateful (unfortunately, my feed to this group is a little unreliable so i would appreciate if you could mail, but by all means, post it too because i'm sure somebody else would like to know...) wes garland, at queen's university | terminal velocity kingston kingston, ontario, canada | fidonet 1:249/128 - usenet access (free) 3386838@jeff-lab.queensu.ca (school) | v.32bis: 613-542-4613 300-2400bps: 6594 wes.garland@tvk.gtm-inc.com (home) | send email to set up full-access account 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60864">
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 i am buying a quantum lps240at 245 mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd/fdd controller. is 32-bit vl-bus hdd/fdd controller faster than 16 bit ide hdd/fdd controller card? no, vl-bus ide is no faster than isa ide. the ide interface is fundamentally nothing more than an extension of the isa bus, and if you hook it to vl-bus it'll work as fast as the slower of the two, meaning isa speed. it's not true. ide bus uses signals which has similar name and same meaning to the counterpart of isa bus but its (ide bus) signal timing doesn't have to be same to isa signal timing. my vl-ide bus card has a set of jumpers to set its transfer rate from 3.3mb/sec up to 8.3mb/ sec (the manufacturer might have to correct these numbers as 3.3 *milion* byte/sec and 8.3 *milion* byte/sec respectively). you cannot transfer data at a rate of 8.3mb/sec on the isa bus. i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller? on the other hand, i wouldn't expect it to be *slower*... richard krehbiel richk@grebyn.com os/2 2.0 will do for me until amigados for the 386 comes along... ken nakata /* i apologize if there are incorrect, rude, and/or impolite expressions in this mail or post. they are not intended. please consider that english is a second language for me and i don't have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase. thank you. -- ken nakata, cis student, njit */ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60866">
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 i need to find how to program the wd7000 faast scsi controller (a 16 bit dma scsi controller for the pc (isa bus)). can somebody point me in the direction of some low level docs on the net? or will i have to get hold of the manufacturers? who did actually make this anyway? who will have the docs? ps> i don't ant the bios docs, i want to know how to attack this sucker from the ground level (ie send my own scsi commands out it from os/2) hamish marson, computer services, university of waikato| hamish@waikato.ac.nz. fax +64 7 8384066 | computers are only disclaimer: remember. you heard it here first! | human..... facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. 
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 i am considering adding to my 386 system equipped with a 130meg maxtor hd, a second maxtor 245 meg hd. i assume this will not be a problem. however, i remember reading somewhere that to do this, you needed to reformat your original drive ? is this true ? if so why ? my drive is full and i really don't like the idea of to re-installing everything from floppy!! please e-mail me, or post to the group --mike mike tancsa internet:#1 mdtancsa@watarts.uwaterloo.ca waterloo, ontario #2 mike.tancsa@canrem.com þ rosereader 2.10á p004555 entered at [crs] canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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 does anybody out there have or used to have an hd controller from perstor system inc. (which is out of business i believe)? my friend received an old pc which happens to have such a controller and i am having a hard time trying to add another hd to the card. i believe the controller is supposed to control mfm drives as rll drives?? here the model info on the card, but any other similar model will probably do. perstor system inc. model: ps 180-16fn rev: 2.2 ecn 9-21 i would appreciate your reply directly to my e-mail address below. ray (rngai@oracle.com) ( raymond ngai <rngai@oracle.com> ) ( application system analyst 300 oracle parkway, #670a ) ( vertical applications division redwood shores, ca 94065 ) ( oracle corporation (415)506-3385 fax:506-7262 ) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60871">
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 i need to buy a scsi controler for my 486 machine to use with a quantum 425f harddrive. i know that adaptec is good, but they are kind of expensive. essentially i want a controller in the $100-$150 range that i can use with this drive. i plan to use windows and later on os 2.1 when it comes out. any reccomendations appreciated. ebosco@us.oracle.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60872">
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 could someone please tell me what the dip switches on the back of the ast hot shot 286 accellerator card do? i recently acquired the card and did not get any docs. any information will be appreciated. robert m. bultman | speed scientific school | university of louisville | internet: rmbult01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu | robert m. bultman | speed scientific school | university of louisville | internet: rmbult01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu | 
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 i've had similar problems downloading using wincim, i discovered that if i disabled data compression on my modem, it works fine. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60875">
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 can any body tell me where the most significant bit of the total horizontal width hides out on the tseng labs et4000 with a 15/16/24 bit dac? i am trying to use the 640x480x16m mode under unix (so i cant just call int 10h)i have a program which dumps the contents of the card registers under dos, but i am not sure i trust it for the extended registers of the et4000. anyway, the problem is that in this mode, the horizontal total register (3d4h index0) is apparently set to 0x27, but 3d4h index 1 (the displayed clocks) is set to 0xef, so 0x27 is nonsense. a resonable value would be 0x0127 - so is there a high bit, and if so, where is it? also, how does one set the video dot clock to the appropriate frequency ( and what would be an appropriate frequency?). the documentation isn't really very clear (tseng.txt from vgadoc2.zip from some ftp site) about this. my card is a megavga/1024 1mb card. seems to have a tseng labs bios (ver 8.05 i think.) works nicely under dos, and very well under unix (linux) in all the non-hicolor modes. great for running x-windows in up to 1152x900x256ni - if your monitor will take it (only just in my case). please email the answer, as i can't read news very often. thanks very much, 
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 i need to be able to cause a beep, but without using any interrupt routines, as i cannot use the bios. i believe that the pic might have something to do with it, but i'm having troubles deciphering the information i have on it to figure out how to program it! i'm programming all of this in turbo c, if that makes any diference at all... please can anyone help me??! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60878">
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 i recently got a tower-case for my gateway 486/33 file server, mostly because we needed the extra drive bays and better power supply. this case has led's for the processor speed, i.e. 33. is there a place to plug this in on the motherboard? if not, is there anyway to hack something to make it work? tia! - ()() ()() () ()()() eric j. huppertz ejhupper@ilstu.edu () () () () "hey, these aren't my rules. come to think of ()() () () ()()() it, i don't have any rules." -beetlejuice 
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 serial cables: there are only three output signals: td, dtr, and rts. there are five inputs signals: rd, dsr, dcd, cts, and ri. there are many differnt null modem requiremts as dictated by the software. the ibm bios requires asserts dtr and rts and then waits for both dsr and cts before sending. when a bios recieve call is made, it asserts dtr and waits for dsr to become true (times out after a while and returns with an error if dsr never becomes true). it requires cts to be true for sending and recieving. most communications packages bypass this and replace it with their own protocol. the key is that each comm. package could very well have different requirements. my favorite cable works in many cases: short rts to cts at each end, but also run rts through to dcd at the opposite end. td runs through to rd and dtr runs through to dsr from both dte's and of course sg goes through to sg. i have never had trouble with this null modem even though i have used it with a comm. package that was expecting rts to go to cts instead of dcd. the advantage of this cable is that it also works with the ibm bios. gordon lang 
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 hi! i recently purchased the toshiba 3401 cdrom. i own an adaptec 1542b scsi card, and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos. it works very well under os/2, so i know that the drive is not faulty. in my config.sys, i have aspi3dos.sys, aspidisk.sys, aspicd.sys. in my autoexec.bat, i have mscdex, which came with dos 6.0. mscdex seems to find and install the drive as drive f:, but when i switch to that drive and try a dir, i get an error message telling me the drive is not ready or something like that. the cdrom is locked too, and the adaptec utilities don't seem to recognize that i have a cdrom at that point. the current adaptec drivers do not support the toshiba 3401. you should get the corel scsi drivers, which do support it. this is the method that i used, and it works well. corel's phone number is 1(613) 728-3733 just a satisfied user. jonathan bayer intelligent software products, inc. (908) 248-1853 37 winthrop rd. jbayer@ispi.com edison, nj 08817 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60884">
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 | i want to use this (proposed) beast for basically four things: | - editing documents using wordperfect 5.1 (under dos) | - creating graphs/analyzing data using sigmaplot v5.0 (under dos) | - editing/playing with images using aldus photostyler, running under | windows 3.1 - these images can be large, say 2k x 2k, 24bits/pixel | - using the pc as an xterminal, running desqview/x 1.1 and sun pc-nfs, | talking to our network of sparcstation's - this is where a lot of | the images/data come from, and is the most demanding of these tasks. | i've read, read, read pc magazines, performed benchmarks, read this newsgroup, | and decided that a "nice" system (price/performance) would be: | 486dx-50 256k cache, isa, vlb, 16meg ram | ati graphics ultra pro, 2 meg ram, local bus | 15" monitor, 1280x1024 ni | 3com etherlink iii 16bit | maxtor 240mb ide hard drive | however, the parts don't fit! our local retailer apparently put one of these | together, only to discover that the ati card wouldn't run at 50mhz - surprise | surprise. actually, after reading this group, i'm surprised that they even | have a 50mhz local bus running... | i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a | 486dx2-66 with isa and vlb, or, a 486dx-50 with eisa and no vlb (and thus | the non-local bus version of the ati card). which is better, keeping in mind | that i'm primarily interested in the last two tasks? having in mind the size of the images, my opinion is to go with vlb. it has _much_ more bandwith that eisa, which in fact can be utilized by the craphics card. (i have not made measures, so someone else may share experience on that.) also, the dx2/66 is faster in the operations, that run off internal cache, slightly slower off the external and about the same off memory. so my advice is the 66/vlb. | we're quite happy with the ati card - very fast, once the data gets to it!! | ~slow~ repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen, or | been uncovered! | there doesn't seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview/x! its sluggish | running the local window manager. also, many functions under photostyler take | a long time (even when the images fit entirely in ram). | there's not enough memory in the system - desqview/x and a 1 meg smartdrive | don't leave much room for other apps. photostyler will page to disk with | medium size images. have you tried running photostyler without the cache? no need to have paging and cache both. (well, you might argue, that the paging is cached). my belief (no measurements) is that apps left with more memory will manage it better than smartdrv.exe(sys). | i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates. this | machine sustains only 120k/sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain 600k/sec | on the same network. going to the 16 bit version of the smc card increases | transfer rates to 160k/sec - still very slow (especially when moving large | images). is there such a thing as a local-bus ethernet card coming?? will it | make a difference? i'm hoping so, and leaning towards the 486dx2-66 choice | (above), for that reason. the bandwidth (theoretical) of isa is over 5mb/s, which is far from 0.15mb/s. i tried my isa ide hard drive (maxtor 213mb) and got the same results - 0.65mb/s - regardless of the isa bus speed (5.5-8.25mhz). so i guess, that just the card/drivers combination is | also, are there dx2-100's on the horizon? what about dx3-99's? dx3-150's ???! the rumors are that dx3-99 (if any) is the most likely chip to come out. but note, that ibm is closest to the technology an it will only sell whole motherboards, so you'll have to upgrade the mb. | any information is greatly appreciated. just some view, not much figures. penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60885">
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 | >so, when you've got multi-tasking, you want to increase performance by | >increasing the amount of overlapping you do. | >one way is with dma or bus mastering. either of these make it | >possible for i/o devices to move their data into and out of memory | >without interrupting the cpu. the alternative is for the cpu to move | >the data. there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and | >bus mastering. | how do you do bus-mastering on the isa bus? as an earlier post noted - through dma. | >ide, however, is defined by the standard at interface | >created for the ibm pc at, which requires the cpu to move all the data | >bytes, with no dma. | if we're talking isa (at) bus here, then you can only have 1 dma channel | active at any one time, presumably transferring data from a single device. | so even though you can have at least 7 devices on a scsi bus, explain how | all 7 of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card | to the isa-at bus at the same time. any one time means imho a single byte xfer. if i have four sources of dma requests ready, the dma would service the one after the other. if the bandwidth for the four together is lower than the isa/dma bandwidth, this will work. note that the bus mastering here is the priority mechanism in the dma penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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 thinking of buying from midwest micro of ohio? think *very* carefully. unless you are absolutely sure you won't have any problems, you may want to trade elsewhere. despite the fact that they answer the phone, "hi! i'm <whoever> and we're having a great day!", they weren't quite so happy when i wanted to return a modem that didn't work as i expected it to. the details: i ordered one of their house brand "infotel" 14.4/df internal fax modems. in reality, it was a twincom lightning fax that had a paper sticker over the name. given the poor reports on the net about this modem, i would not have ordered it, had i known this in advance. it arrived on time. the documentation stated that it would work (and was preconfigured) as com4, providing that com2 was not in use at the same time. for several reasons, i have a serial card configured for com1/com2. at the time i installed the modem, nothing was connected to com2. although the modem appeared to work, during every connection at 9600 or 14.4, it would randomly break the connection and hang up the phone. after spending some time on the phone with midwest's tech support, they suggested disabling the com2 port. this appeared to solve the disconnect problem, but was an unacceptable long term solution. i had to have com1 and 2 available, even though they both would not be in use at the same time as the modem. i called back 20 minutes prior to their closing and waited in voicemail hell, listening to repeated advertisements for midwest micro products. i was then promptly disconnected. apparently it was quiting time and they didn't want to be bothered with callers that had been waiting on the line. i called the next day and asked the customer diservice agent for an rma number. she promptly switched me to a "tech support" rep that implied that it was my equipment at fault and that he wasn't going to give me an rma number. he suggested i use some nonstandard irq settings, a solution i was not happy with. the modem should work as originally configured. conclusion: i'm not sure the modem would work ok in a basic system, but it clearly does not work in a multi port system like mine. since my time is worth more than the aggravation or the cost of the modem, i gave it to a local charitable organization (with a description of my problem) and ordered a practical peripherals 14.4mt from pc connection. for $30 more, i have a solid external modem built by a company i know will support their users and sold by a company (based on personal experience) will treat me right if there is a problem. i should have known better... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60889">
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 {> i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding {> extended operation of my g2k 486-33v with the cover removed {> from the enclosure. there are a # of reasons i am considering {> this, including quick access to jumpers during complex i/o card {> setups. {> my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the {> cooling flow of air from the fan, "hot spots" may develop on my {> motherboard or elsewhere. my g2k has intake air vents in the {> front of the enclosure right at mb level. these vents would be {> removed along with the top cover in this scenario, rendering {> airflow from the fan pretty useless. {> however, short periods in this mode don't seem to heat things up {> too much, but my conclusions are far from scientific... {> -- tim i ran a 386-33 out of a cardboard box for more than a year with no major effects (yeah, no case at all, mb sitting on a static bag) other than the noise from the poersupply it ran pretty good. as for cooling problems i bought a 12-14 inch fan and turned it on full and set the output directly on the motherboard. i did finally get a case though and i am still running the parts with no ill effects. i also had no kids to spill things on the mb> i had no cat leaving hair on the mb etc. etc. on and on.... the two major concerns are keeping static away and keeping the mb cool china cat bbs c-cat!david@sed.csc.com (301)604-5976 1200-14,400 8n1 ...uunet!mimsy!anagld!c-cat!david 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60890">
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 steps deleted {> it's an interesting idea, but the worst-case data patterns developed to {> test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used to detect {> common faults in memory chips. i was having major memory problems a few monthes ago. getting parity error - system halted error message in windows. i ran qa/plus, check it, diagnose, as well as several shareware memory checkers. i had a total of 8 meg simm in my system. these store bought/ shareware memory diagnostics either ran fine without errors or found an error at some address that i couldn't place on a memory chip. out of exahperation i came up with the (now deleted) steps to find bad memory chips. i found 2 (moral : never buy memory stamped "not for sensitive or critical applications" on the back. anyway i did filter out all the bad memory chips using combinations of 4 of the 8 meg chips and creating a ram drive to test on. although it dodn't alleviate my parity error problems in windows. i did manage to find bad memory chips in this manner it has never failed to find a bad chip for me. and the commercial/ shareware have always faild me either not finding the error or pointing to an addreww which i have no idea on what chip it is. p.s. man my typing stinks today and i don't feel like futzing around with this line editor. china cat bbs c-cat!david@sed.csc.com (301)604-5976 1200-14,400 8n1 ...uunet!mimsy!anagld!c-cat!david 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60891">
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 stupid question from a new ibm pc user: i'm going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway 2000. *retching noises* talk about "out of the frying pan and into the fire" :) are scsi drives faster than ide? i'm pretty sure scsi is faster. along with a lot better compatability. jhereg@iastate.edu up the universe (no damn sig) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60893">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60893" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a couple of questions: 1) what is a 16550 uart? and so on. see my response in comp.dcom.modems.....all of your answers are there. btw, next time, if you must cross-post into other groups, cross-post instead of posting multiple copies. that way, only one copy of your article must be transmitted by the network, and only one copy is stored on people's disks (except in the case of brain-damaged news software). --jim #include <std_disclaimer.h> 73 de n5ial (/4) internet: jim@n5ial.mythical.com | j.graham@ieee.org icbm: 30.23n 86.32w amateur radio: n5ial@w4zbb (ft. walton beach, fl) amtor selcal: nial e-mail me for information about kamterm (host mode for kantronics tncs). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60896">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60896" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 it seems that there are a lot of questions regarding the cyrix 386 compatible 486dlc and 486dru2. my info comes directly from cyrix's fast fax service: and also from installing one of these chips in an ibm model 80. the 486dlc is a 486 instruction set compatible cpu which fits into a 386dx socket (pin grid array, or pga). the dlc currently is available in 3 speeds. the 25, the 33, and the 40. they do not have a coprocessor on board, but any software query will return coproc as present. i guess they emulate the coproc instructions. math functions are on the 386dx level without the actual coprocessor. the internal cache on the 486dlc is 1k. cyrix literature claims a 85% hit rate. my informal tests show that the cache accounts for a 10% performance boost when it is enabled by software. overall performance boost from a 386dx-25 to a 486dlc-25 is about 60%. the benchmarks i used were nu si and qaplus dhrystones and whetstones. the performance, with the cache enabled, is about on a par with my 386dx-40 with 256k external cpu cache, which is around the performance for a 486sx-25. the computer runs noticebly faster, and dos 6 with dblspace is not complaining. the company claims os/2 compatibility, but i didn't test it. the 486dru2 is not a chip, as commonly thought. the 486dru2 is actually a small daughterboard slightly larger than the 386dx, which contains the logic to manage the clock doubler. this board plugs into the 386dx pga, and the 486dlc-33 or 40 plugs into this board. i guess the board doubles the frequency apparent to the cpu, and insert wait states when access to the rest of the system is required. there are no info available from cyrix there. anyway, the dru2 is available for 386dx-16, and 386dx-20 only. double these clock rates, and you get the 32mhz and the 40mhz dlcs. if cyrix is planning to do the same thing for the dru2-50, then they need to put out the 50mhz dlc2 first... i also tested a dlc33 motherboard, along with a cyrix coprocessor. with 64k external cache, performance were about 30% faster than the 25, but still significantly (25%?) slower than an actual intel 486dx. imho, the dlc is a great, low price upgrade for people who can't afford, or can't install, a new motherboard. it is definitely worth what i paid for it, but if you need 486dx-33 performance, the dlc33 won't cut it. i'm not sure about the dlc-40, but i think even if it matches the performance, it won't beat it in any significant way. the last time i posted info about the dlc, people sent quite a bit of mail, asking where i got it. so here is where i got mine: treasure chest peripherals, they advertise in the computer shopper. 1-800-677-9781 the 486dlc-25 kit was $179.00 but.... i liked the chip so much that i found the supplier, and became a dealer. if you are interested in the chip, e-mail me, and i can fax or mail you more info. i'm well aware of the net's policy against commercial use, so i can;t post anymore info here. however, if there are more questions regarding the 486dlc itself, i'll post what i can. 909-396-0408 if someone asks if you are a god, you say... yes! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60897">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60897" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 article #61083 (61123 is last): newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware the temp on my 486dx2/66 is over 96c (measured with a k-type thermocouple and fluke 55 dig thermometer). this is an "idle" temp - not doing lots of bus i/o, not doing floating point, not doing 32-bit protected mode etc. this is in a micron computer, without heatsink. i recently put a heatsink/fan on the chip, but i might take the fan off. it makes a horrible whine at times, and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc... rob scholten scholten@epg.nist.gov end of file, press return to quit don't worry about the whine of the fan it will go away in about 3 weeks of use, mine did... as to the vibration well that something i thought about to as i have a tower case and the mb is mounted vertically. so i mounted the fan on the case so that it just blows air at the cpu and its heatsink instead. work just like a charm, but the realy biggy to think about is after the whine goes away on the fan. if the fan should stop (burn out) how would you ever know this before the cpu goes up in smoke. thats what you should be thinking about. i have the parts together but have not had the time to assemble them as yet. but you build a thermistor controlled circuit that will turn on a pesso speaker and a led when the temp. goes above the normal operating range (96c) or there abouts. cheep to do if you use radio shack junk under $5....think about that one for a while! gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60898">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60898" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 netters! i have seen some postings on pc/ip from mit. this package out of 1986(?) should be a full tcp/ip fro the dos-machines. is there anyone out there that's using it? i want to connect a dos-machine to my os/2 machine... tell me what the dos-machine should run (sample config and autoexec would be great) and where i can find a nfs client. i understand that a telnet and a ftp client are part of the package. i've got the crynwr package drivers, but that's it! please point me to a good source of information if you cannot help me yourself... regards, jv name: j-v meuldijk [ o o ] address: gildelaar 4 \_=_/ 4847 hw teteringen fax: +3176-600220 _| |_ holland e-mail: volkert@kub.nl / \_/ \ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60899">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60899" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 boy am i glad that i didn't start out with one of thos ps/2 computers. i started the upgrade operation out by spending $235 for a amd386dxl-40 forex upgradable mother board from midwest micro. when it was time to upgrade i bought a intel 486dx2-50 cpu for $350 and was finished. i still don't see why they ever made the 486\50 cpu at all. its to fast for both isa and lb and vesa boards.. some test results taken on my mb and 486dx2-50 cpu and some others... x-tal upgrades & specs - turbo mode tests - with fan & heatsink kit - isa bus x-tal mhz cpu mhz cpu speed mhz fpo mhz video chr/ms 40.00 -386and /3=13.33mhz 40.544 62.37 --- 6510.00 40.00 -386amd /4=10.00mhz 40.544 62.37 --- 6467.00 * 50.000-486dx2-50 /2=12.5mhz 50.041 167.22 441.53 6105.00 52.361-486dx2-50 /2=13.1mhz 52.703 176.03 464.81 6425.00 * 54.058-486dx2-50 /2=13.5mhz 54.120 180.81 477.40 6642.00 56.644-486dx2-50 /3=9.37mhz 56.220 189.46 500.25 4593.00 66.666-486dx2-50 /3=11.1mhz 66.759 222.99 588.81 5401.00 with all tests the 486dx2-50 ran ice cold! not even up to room temp did it go! 50.000-486dx50 /? 49.998 167.12 408.89 2463.00 ??.???-486dx2-66 /? 84.234 224.00 372.00 10570.00 cpu/isa bus x-tal mhz bus speed/mhz speedstar 24x video card amd386dxl-40 40.000 /2 = 20.00 mhz inoperative amd386dxl-40 40.000 /3 = 13.33 mhz 6510.00 chr/ms amd386dxl-40 40.000 /4 = 10.00 mhz 6467.00 chr/ms amd386dxl-40 40.000 /5 = 8.00 mhz 4020.00 chr/ms amd386dxl-40 40.000 /6 = 6.66 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 50.000 /2 = 12.51 mhz 6105.00 chr/ms 486dx2-50 50.000 /3 = 8.34 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 50.000 /4 = 6.25 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 50.000 /5 = 5.00 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 50.000 /6 = 4.16 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 56.64 /2 = 14.16 mhz 6826.00 chr/ms 486dx2-50 56.64 /3 = 9.44 mhz 4593.00 chr/ms 486dx2-50 56.64 /4 = 7.08 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 56.64 /5 = 5.66 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 56.64 /6 = 4.72 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 66.66 /2 = 16.67 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 66.66 /3 = 11.11 mhz 5401.00 chr/ms 486dx2-50 66.66 /4 = 8.33 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 66.66 /5 = 6.67 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 66.66 /6 = 5.56 mhz not tested 486dx2-50 54.12 /2 = 13.53 mhz 6642.00 chr/ms 486dx2-50 52.36 /2 = 13.17 mhz 6425.00 chr/ms gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60900">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60900" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i bought a 386dx-40 motherboard for 50$... no documentation at all. everything appears to work, except i'm having trouble getting a few of the led connectors working. i've looked at the manuals for 4 other motherboards, but the pin configuration doesn't look anything like what is on this board. does this pin arrangement look familiar to anyone out there??? any hints on where i can find this information? 1 10 "speaker" . . . . . . . . . . "keylock" . . . . . . . . . . 11 ^ 20 j23 | |the board came with a jumper vertically across these two pins. i can get the power/keylock to work across pins 11-15, reset across pins 9 and 19, but would prefer not to blow something up by further experimentation. the date on the board itself is 6/92, opti chips. i would really appreciate any help, and thank you in advance. n a stassen lantz 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60901">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60901" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 article #61058 (61121 is last): newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware i have a diamond stealth vram card (the older version with the dip switches on the back). i have two problems: 1 ) i've lost the manual!!! 2 ) i have it in a machine with a network card, and everything works fine until i run windows, when the network connection dies. (in case it's important, the network card is an smc arcnet 8-bit compatable card. it's i/o address is 02e0 and it's ram base address is d000. it's also using irq 2) [remainder deleted] i don't have my copy of the manual with me right now, but i can offer the following in the interim: 1) the card uses port addresses 0x2e0 and 0x2e8 (which are not configurable). these addresses, incidentally, were inadvertantly omitted from my version of the manual. 2) i believe there is a dip that controls whether or not to enable irq 2 (for cga or ega support??!?). lance hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) yes, that is a '%' (percent sign) in my network address. all statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60902">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60902" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i just read an article in another group that mentions this. i have never heard of the vcpi memory standard. can someone explain what this is??? thanks greg cisko 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60904">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60904" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 while playing around with my gateway 2000 local-bus machine last night, it became apparent that windows 3.1 didn't give the option for 32-bit access for virtual memory. i am using a permanent swap file, and the disk drive is on the local bus interface. is this expected, or should i be investigating further why no 32-bit option appears? thanks for any help. scott linn scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60907">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60907" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i'm in need of a videotaped copy of a pc (pd) program. please let me know if you can do this. dna@ucs.usl.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60908">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60908" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i just bought a new amiecu eisa motherboard and an adaptec 1742a fast-scsi controller. i wanted to install the aha-1742a and did as written in the amiecu manual. but the cfg-utility told me to get a newer version of the adaptec configuration overlay file named 'adp0000.ovr', because the old one is not compatible to my motherboard. the adaptec driver utility is version 3.0. can you help me ? please do so. name : frederic tschannen adress : university of fribourg / / / / /--- iiuf, misericorde / / / / / ch - 1700 fribourg / / / / /-- switzerland / / /__/ / e-mail : tschannen@cfruni51.bitnet 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60910">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60910" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have been unable to get com 4 to work - diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed. i think the software options are ok - is there a known hardware conflict and/or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g2k 486dx2/66 tower with ati video card it's the video card. it's 8514/a compatible, which means it uses the same i/o addresses as com4. --jh john hood cthulhu-- just imagine it! jhood@smoke.marlboro.vt.us 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60911">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60911" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 hello, i've been following discussions on 17" monitors in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews. i'm interested in getting more information about nanao's products as well as some others that may fit the bill. i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like 1024x1024 ni. i'm envisioning using this monitor on an amiga 4000 or amiga 2000 w/a graphics board like the retina, and/or on a sun like the sparcstation lx. basically i want a high resolution versital monitor. this monitor need not be large (=>17") if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above. i've been very happy with a 16" on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home. i'm interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun's fairly often and look pretty good (to me at least). i haven't seem them brought up in c.s.i.p.h very often as are mag and viewsonic. ok, stuff i'd like to find out: how can i get ahold of nanao? what are the products in their line? what are the technical specs? esp. what scan freq and max resolutions can they handle? what's list and street cost - if avail. from a third party, and where can i get ahold of them? same info for sony and hitatchi. thank you very much!! ,`,`john navitsky`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`johnn@eskimo.com,`,`,`, ,`,`exercise a right today,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`, 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60912">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60912" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 for 2 months i've unsuccessfully attempted to get either a 3rd or 4th serial port working on my system. various systems diagnostics (e.g., msd, norton) tell me it's there, but anything i hook up to it can't use it i have two serial ports on the motherboard if i set my internal fax/modem for com4 the utility programs report a com3 i've checked to make sure all the irqs and addresses are correctly (as listed in most manuals) set am i missing something very basic? where should i go from here? any help, even a point in the right direction, would be most appreciated. david besonen "davidb@student.umass.edu" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60913">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60913" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a system with a scsi drive. i want to get a qic-150 tape unit to attach to it, and then run software that will read (and maybe even write) unix tar tapes. (or at least just read a stream and dump it to file - i'll take it from there). why is this impossible? it isn't. ;-) use tar on the un*x box and gtak110.zip on the dos box. needs aspi driver. ralf g. r. bergs, aachen university of technology ee (comp. eng.) student snail: h"uckeswagener str. 42, d-w5270 gummersbach, fed. rep. of germany phone: (+49) 22 61-2 19 68 (answ. mach.) / note: new zip (51647) as of july 1st email: rabe@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60915">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60915" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i received a kaypro 286i computer (dos) without a manual that describes the jumpers on the motherboard. it came with 640kb and i up'd it to 1mb. but the computer or setup does not recognize the extra 384k. does anyone know if this computer is capable of greater than 640k on the main board and what jumpers are required to expand it to 1mb? some specs: kaypro main board assy number 81-621 phoenix bios v1.51 1985 thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60916">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60916" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running? my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job. lino montuno i totally agree with your friend, since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second (checking for keyboard input for instance). the exception to this is for cpu's used in laptops, where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing. in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again. victor buttigieg e-mail: victor@uk.ac.man.ee.comms communications research group university of manchester 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60917">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60917" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 hi! i recently got hold of an old/obsolete pc. first thing i am trying to do with it, is making it work. seems the switches in the back have been toggled since last it was used, and i do not have the manual. can anybody help me to identify this beast, and mail me the prober switch-settings? all i know is that is is a bondwell 38, made in 1986, most likely a 286, can be toggled between 4.77 and 8 mhz, and looks like no changes have been made. any information would be appreciated. terje johansen at trondheim college of engineering, norway. my conscience once became so bad that it died. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60918">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60918" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i've got an in-2000 working in a (wimpy) 386sx20 presently. in a few months i'm getting a 486 motherboard and probably a toshiba 3401e cdrom and a sbpro. will i need special drivers for getting all this to work? do they exist? basically, is this feasible, or should i expect to be getting a newer, faster scsi card? bryan welch amateur radio: n0sfg internet: europa@vnet.ibm.com (best), bwelch@scf.nmsu.edu everything will perish save love and music.--scots gaelic proverb disclaimer: it's all opinion. everything. so there. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60920">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60920" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a 486sx25 computer with a 105 mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard. i want to add a scsi drive (a quantum prodrive 425f 425 mg formatted). i have no documentation at all and i need your help! as i understand it, here is the process of adding such a drive. could you please tell me if i'm right.. 1- buy a scsi contoler. which one? i know adaptec is good, but they are kind of expensive. are there any good boards in the $100 region? i want it to be compatible with os2 and unix if possible. also, i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi2 drives. is this true? does the adapter need to be the same as the drive? what type of drive is the i have tried others, but i think that the adaptec is best value for money. 2- connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable. do i have to worry about the power supply? i think i have 200 watts and all i'm powering are two floppies and the seagate drive. i dont think you can mix the two types of drive, unless you have one of the scsi/ide cards that is available. you will have to turn your ide off. 3- setup the bios to recognize the drive as the second drive. what type of drive is this? i don't have the numbers for this drive. instructions for drive type are included with the controller. with some it may be a type 1. no matter what the disk is. with others it may be a type 47. i had one controller that i had to tell the bios that no hard disk was installed. 4- format and create partitions on the drive. do i use format or fdisk? i think that ide drives can't be low-level formatted. is it the same with scsi? how exactly does fdisk work? i have a reduced msdos 5.0 manual (clone obliges) and there is no mention of fdisk. ideally, i would want the drive partitioned in to two partitions d: and e: how do i do this? do not low level format a scsi unless you have the scsi low level format program. first use fdisk to set the partitions, then use format. well that seems to be all. is there anythiing i'm forgetting? any help is *really* appreciated, i'm lost... ebosco@us.oracle.com mark@uk.ac.ox.physchem 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60921">
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 |> int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi {from the |> article it seems you get plug and play scsi-1 only since scsi-2 in full |> implimentation has ten not 7 devices.} |i beleive this last bit is just plain wrong! i believe you are right. both scsi and scsi-2 support 8 devices on the bus (normally that would be the host controller and 7 targets) each of which may have up to 8 logical units (luns). paul burry voice: (613)-991-7325 internet: pburry@cse.dnd.ca fax: (613)-991-7323 uucp: ..!{uunet,cunews}!cse.dnd.ca!pburry 
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 a friend a mine has a commodore 386sx and we've put in that machine a second harddisk, he now has 100+200 mb. but the problem is that the 200mb harddisk isn't supported in the bios. alas there's no user type 47 in the setup. at the moment we use it as a 193mb type but there are getting bad blocks on the harddisk :-<. question: who knows a solution to this? i've seen a small program for this once in the byte, but i haven't been able to find this. would speedstor or diskmanager work for this, i used these programs quite a lot in the xt-days, but i don't have these anymore, seagate used to ship diskmanager with each drive they sold. help will be greatly appreciated. ronald schalk r.schalk@uci.kun.nl 
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 what's the difference between a 16550 uart and a 16550a uart? thanks! =================the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind====================== do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore (ie: "wild" hamsters)? or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell? funny how we like to watch others *sweat while our butts take root on the sofa. *i'm don't think hamsters sweat. i'll go shave one and get back to you. ==================(robert) bobby yung === ry01@lehigh.edu====================== 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60924">
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 why is it going to take a year for v.fast to become a standard? are there technical problems to work out, or is it just bureaucratic slowdown? thanks! =================the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind====================== do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore (ie: "wild" hamsters)? or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell? funny how we like to watch others *sweat while our butts take root on the sofa. *i'm don't think hamsters sweat. i'll go shave one and get back to you. ==================(robert) bobby yung === ry01@lehigh.edu====================== 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60925">
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 has anyone connected a high-res, fixed frequency monitor to their pc? i have a mitubishi monitor that does 1024x768 at 60hz, but won't do any other resolutions. all the video cards designed for this sort of thing are very expensive (>$400). has anyone done it with an svga card (i know it can be done, it's just a question of getting the card at the right resolution and frequency)? i'd like to use a mono (hercules) monitor as my dos/command line monitor, and switch to the mitsu for windows or x-windows (under linux or 3bsd). any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. e-mail, please. steve wechsler | zaphod@src4src.linet.org | call lady hawke's castle bbs: please respond to my queries via e-mail (post also if you like) | 516-226-4630 because my site purges news much faster than i can keep up with it. this message was made from 100% recycled materials. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60926">
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 i have bought a new harddisk and want to use it with my old teac sd3105 , 100mb harddisk. unfortunataly i do not have any documentation with this harddisk. could someone please tell me how i should set the jumpers for master or slave ? thanks in advance, robert tenback. <rhtenbac@cs.ruu.nl> ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ____ robert tenback /__// //__//__ /__/ / rhtenbac@cs.ruu.nl / \ /__//__//__ / \ / utrecht, the netherlands 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60930">
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 to those who own cms's trakkers...please email me with your thoughts on your machine...and specifics such as avg. file access..etc ben ng beng@dorsai.dorsai.org 1:278/706 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60931">
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 i've got a 386dx-40, 4mb and i'm using windows 3.1. sometimes i wondered why windows worked endlessly on my hd when i was doing nothing (execpt having lunch or something like that). then i turned this virtual memory swapfile off, and windows became quite faster, but now having less memory free. and so i'm still wondering, why windows is reading everything from virtual memory when the convertional is sufficient? any common-sense-explanation is really appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60932">
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 i'm using norton cache 5.0, which is really nice but horrible incompatible. some games won't work it, my streamer software won't work with it and windows doesn't like it at all. but when copying or deleting lots of small files, only ncache is really fast. you see, to write a file the fat must be changed. but to write 1000 files the fat must be changed only once. is there any cache program out there which is smart enough to do the same and good enough to run with all my applications? any help is really appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60933">
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 i'm planning to buy a computer and i like tc's ads. can you tell anything about the company and their computers? also, if anyone has a company they would prefer, please let me know. yes, they are nice ads, and even better: great prices. but this is all on the outside. the consumer sees this and orders. little do they know, they will get *poor* service (very poor). when i ordered a 105mb hard drive from tc about 6 months ago, i received it in the mail, installed it, and discovered it didn't work!!! i sent it back to them, and they said they'd send me a refund check. it took many, many, many phone calls and hate-mail, as well as threats of lawsuit to get back my $250.00! in fact, it took two whole months of calling and threatening! every time i'd call, i would be put on the run-around until i finally wound up on an answering machine. i'd leave my name and phone #, but i didn't even get called back *once*. i am one pissed off t.c. customer, and if you don't want to get ripped off, or if you want decent service, do not --i repeat-- do not buy from this company. the money saved is not worth the ulcers you will get. pass this word around to your friends. companies like this do not deserve to stay in business, so let's not give them out hard earned money. discount micro, systems powerhouse, and gateway 2000 all have given me excellent service and speed in the past. i highly recommend them to anyone. mike bitz internet: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu research and development bitzm@dsuvax.dsu.edu dakota state university bitnet: s93020@sdnet.bitnet 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60934">
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 i have a friend with an original hp laserjet. the nameplate does not specify a number, but since the lj ii followed later, one assumes that he has a lj i. his problem is a tax program which requires a 17 cpi font to print the forms properly. this unit came to market in 2 versions. the plus version supported dowloadable fonts. you can guess which one my friend has - the plain, not the plus. the printer does though have a slot and he has a small selction of cartridges including a 16.6 cpi - but none with a 17 cpi font. can anyone suggest a source for a cartridge with a 17 (or 18?) cpi font? alternatively, is an upgrade to the plus version available at reasonable any suggestions would be welcome. * winqwk 2.0b#943 * seattle rain festival - jan. 1 to dec. 31 canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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 ==== begin repost ==== ibm, apple, motorola ready to unwrap powerpc 601 processor the wraps will come off the powerpc 601 processor this week, as motorola corp., ibm, and apple computer inc. detail the results of their yearlong effort. this first in a series of powerpc processors will be a 32-bit processor with a 64-bit memory interface, much like intel corp.'s pentium, with the capability of performing as many as three instructions per clock cycle, according to sources familiar with the chip. motorola is expected to release the chip in volume by year end in two configurations, running at 50 and 66 mhz with performance of 40 and 50 specint89 marks, respectively, sources said. floating-point performance for the 3.6-volt processors will be even better, as their specfp89 performance will be 60 and 80, respectively. the 601, a scaled-down version of the power 220 chip developed by ibm for its rs/6000 workstations, will also include a 32k single buffered cache on the chip with protocols to support motorola's 64-bit multiprocessor 88110 bus built in. the chip, which is being designed initially to support the micro channel architecture, is bus independent, so vendors could develop powerpc- based systems using a number of different architectures, including isa, eisa, or sun microsystems inc.'s s-bus design, one source according to sources familiar with the development effort, motorola has been extremely successful in developing the powerpc as an inexpensive architecture, despite a complex design made up of more than 2.8 million transistors using a 0.6-micron technology. initial chips are expected to be priced from $300 to $400 -- only slightly higher than intel corp.'s 486 processors -- but could be sold profitably for less than $100, one source said. ==== end repost ==== 
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 |> just got a 66mhz 486dx2 system, and am considering getting a fan for the |> cpu. the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a |> fairly good idea. (long ago when i did some electronics training i read |> somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions/gates etc |> slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature, hence a hot |> chip goes off-spec sooner) |> has anyone out there got a cpu fan?? |> is there more than 1 type? |> do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan? |> do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines? |> anyone had any trouble with cpu fans? |> does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money? |> how are these fans attached? (glue? clips? melted cheese?) |> roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without? |> (an advert i've read claims 85f vs 185f) |> any info appreciated, |> +-- nic percival ----------+- "well that was a piece of cake, eh k-9?" -----+ |> | micro focus, newbury. | "piece of cake master? radial slice of baked | |> | (0635) 32646 ext 5336. | confection... - coefficient of relevance to | |> +-- nmp@mfltd.co.uk -------+- key to time: zero." - dr. who ---------------+ i own a pc fancard ii, which is a slightly different beast. it's a long card that plugs into an 8 or 16 bit slot and contains two muffin fans. it requires no extra cabling. i had a 286 that was experiencing some problems due to heat. the fancard made the system run cool enough so that the problem no longer appears. it's supposed to keep the internal temperature in the range of 75-95 degrees fahrenheit. according to the maker's (m.s. tech) advertisements, the us army used a bunch of these to keep their pcs running (w/o a/c) in desert storm. i can't vouch for that. however, i am a satisfied customer. and i have no other connection with the maker or the mail-order house (lyben (313) 268-8100). hope this helps, george j. pandelios internet: gjp@sei.cmu.edu software engineering institute usenet: sei!gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice: (412) 268-7186 pittsburgh, pa 15213 fax: (412) 268-5758 disclaimer: these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute, its sponsors, customers, clients, affiliates, or carnegie mellon university. in fact, any resemblence of these opinions to any individual, living or dead, fictional or real, is purely coincidental. so there. 
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 stupid question from a new ibm pc user: i'm going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway 2000. *retching noises* talk about "out of the frying pan and into the fire" :) what cpu does this use? i need the info fro my thesis. are scsi drives faster than ide? i'm pretty sure scsi is faster. along with a lot better compatability. half right. scsi-1 is slower than ide {5mb/s vs 8.3mb/s maximum.} scsi-2 {8-bit} has a faster burst rate than ide {quarda} scsi-2 {16 and 32-bit} are much faster than ide {cyclone in june} 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60945">
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 help! i am trying to view .jpg files with my 386sx, 20mhz machine . i have a stb-powergraph graphics card with 1024 x 768 by 256 colors, with 1meg ram on it. i have tried cview097 (with windows-- extremely slow), and dvpeg24. dvpeg24 doesn't work! even if i pick a lot of the "modes" that are supported by powergraph (so it says in the manual), it doesn't work when i try to view a picture... it only buzzes. anyone out there that can help me; give me suggestions? i would really appreciate it! thanks! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60946">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60946" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 | jcl> this garbage?, my modem doesn't have any of these on hardware, can a | jcl> software implemented protocol do the trick? | there is a software version of mnp-5 available from mtez, and it will often | connect with other modems that are mnp compatible, but if the modem that you there's also a program called odyssey (modem directory on the simtel archives) that emulates mnp 4 and 5 (others, too, i think, but these were what i was interested in). i was getting a lot of garbage when i called one number, and mnp 4 cleared it up completely on my ordinary 2400 modem. (fortunately, the remote end had an mnp modem.) i tried mnp 5, too, but it seemed to lock up the computer. your mileage may vary. ed haymore ed@byu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60947">
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 |> >i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar 280 drive. |> >is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow |> >me to fix it? |> >thanks. |> i am no expert on this. but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this. ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives. when you low level format it, the information itself is gone as well, i don't think you can get it back unless |> you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you. |> jim well, i have a different story to recount. i attempted to low-level format a wd 43mb disk about a year ago. when i understood my error, i contacted wd. they told me that i hadn't hurt the drive and that i should just run fdisk and format/s on it. it was fine. also, i understand that western digital's bbs may have some low-level formatting routines specifically available for ide drives. you probably need to talk to them and get the straight scoop. george j. pandelios internet: gjp@sei.cmu.edu software engineering institute usenet: sei!gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice: (412) 268-7186 pittsburgh, pa 15213 fax: (412) 268-5758 disclaimer: these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute, its sponsors, customers, clients, affiliates, or carnegie mellon university. in fact, any resemblence of these opinions to any individual, living or dead, fictional or real, is purely coincidental. so there. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60948">
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 | i'm using norton cache 5.0, which is really nice but horrible incompatible. | some games won't work it, my streamer software won't work with it and windows | doesn't like it at all. but when copying or deleting lots of small files, only that's surprising -- i haven't seen any incompatibilities with mine, version 6.01. the version that came with my upgrade to 6.01 had some problems, but symantec fixed those and i've haven't seen anything wrong i'm not running windoze, by the way. ed haymore ed@byu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60950">
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 i'm having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller. the first drive is a conner 3204 and works fine. the second drive is a conner 30174, it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive. the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space. disabling cache has made no effect. what else should i check for? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60953">
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 have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor. if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used. i wish i could help! i posted a similar question about two weeks ago; i got no response at all. i've asked locally at my friendly atari store. i was told that it should be possible, but that they had no idea how it might be done. nor did they particularly care to investigate. ok, here's my results so far.... 1: you have to define the monitor as lcd - it doesn't really support analogue video input (it works, but isn't very linear...) 2: the incoming sync pulses need inverting. this is best achieved with either a cmos xor package or a transistor inverter. if you don't know how to do it, don't even contemplate it.. :-) 3: it'll only work in standard vga mode. ok, having said that, i'm trying to either find a circuit or ic which will act as a universal sync decoder. i want somethikng which basically only detects the leading sync pulse edge, and doesn't care about the polarity, outputting the -ve going pulses that the atari monitor requires. there are 2 reasons for doing this 1: vga cards change their sync polarity depending which mode they're in - herc emulation is +,- while mvga is +,+ for example. 2: it means i don't have to put a toggle switch on the back of the monitor in order to be able to run it off both the atari and my ibm. currently i have 3 (yes, 3!) monitors sitting on my desk, and i want to get that number down as much as possible. being able to use the atari monitor as a paper-white vga will cut things down to 2. if i forget about atari colour, i can get down to 1. ultimately, the best course of action is to get a multisync monitor, but i'm as pressed for cash as anyone else, so it'll have to wait... alan brown dogbowl@dogbox.acme.gen.nz 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60956">
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 once again, someone else with a gateway monitor problem, anyone who can help, please do, it would be much apprieciated. thanks in advance. ok, i have a local bus 486/66 machine, with the crystal scan 15inch monitor. i have 1 meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro, w/ the mach32 driver (the newest release). my problem is in windows when i use the 1024 mode. i get shadows down the sides of the screens, and very blurry type in the corners. the types on the screen are all out of focus. i've gotten replacement video cards, and a replacement monitor. none of that has helped though. could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem. thanks again, josh smith "live now! make now always the most precious time. | reply to: now will never come again!" picard, the inner light| jlredd@bach.udel.edu 
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 can somebody tell me step by step how to add a 40mb ide kalok? hd to an existing 120mb ide maxtor hd with stacker 3.0 and dos 5? i know how to set the jumpers on the 40m to be slave and the settings for heads, wpcom, sectors, etc. i also know that i have to do some cmos settings and fdisk. the problem is: what letter will the cmos give the new drive? if it's d:, what will happen when stacker creates d: and swap? can i tell cmos to make it e:? so that if i stack it, i will have c, d, e and f? i know this could be an faq or in a readme somewhere, but i want to hear from somebody who've actually done it. thanks! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60960">
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 i believe that any vl/eisa/isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to 24-bit eisa dma (where 'real' eisa dma is 32-bit). the hint eisa dma has the 16 mb ram addressing limitation of isa. for this reason i would pass. i own one of these (hawk vl/eisa/isa) and am look- ing to replace it for exactly this reason. please double-check me on this. in other words, call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true 32-bit eisa other than this limitation, the motherboard works quite well (i am using mine with dos 5, windows 3.1, and unix s5r3.2). also with adaptec 1742a eisa scsi host adapter. gary korenek (korenek@nmti.com) you are correct! the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks... | brian j schaufenbuel i don't see this as a problem with the chip-set (a mistake), i see this as something that was designed-in intentionally. so it would seem that to enhance the design (from 24 to 32-bit eisa dma) would require an update to the chipset. an update to the chipset may begat an update to the motherboard board design. what i'm saing is: the motherboard manufacturer seems to be passing this off as a simple fix. in my mind the fix is a updated chipset from hint along with a possible motherboard layout update. this is not simple. if i were you i would be cautious about this. you might look into the advanced integration research (air) vl/eisa motherboard. all slots are eisa/isa capable. 2 (or 3) of the slots are vl-bus capable. the air people confirmed this board supports 'real' 32-bit eisa dma (i called them). pentium/p5 (?) capable. less expensive than equivalent ami or micronics vl/eisa board. look in computer shopper (april '93). the zenon ads show the air mother- board. a associate bought the air board and is pleased with it. i'm attempting to get the local dealer to trade out the hawk board for the air board. model number of air board (with 486-33dx) is b433ei2. you can call motherboard warehouse (for example) for a price. phone #'s included air (408)-428-0800 motherboard warehouse (800)-486-9975 gary korenek (korenek@nmti.com) network management technology incorporated sugar land, texas (713) 274-5357 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60961">
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 due to some problems with my ide drive, i ll formatted the maxitor7213at. now it started to give me some errors in some applications. i was told maxitor has a utility called ide_int in their bbs, anyone tried it? can some one tell me what that bbs number is? or better, can i find the file in some ftp site? or perhaps someone can email it to me? thanks. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60963">
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 you can find the drivers at wuarchive.wustl.edu in the /msdos/windows3 sub- directory. i think the files are called "tvgawin31a.zip" and "tvgawin31b.zip." those are the latest drivers available as far as i know. i downloaded these files a couple of days ago and they appeared to be incompatible with this particular card. none of the svga drivers worked. they're probably for the newer 8900 and 9000 series. jouni marttila - yo-kyl{ 11 b 25, 20540 turku, finland - +358 21 374624____ jmarttila@abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila - jjmartti@utu.fi__ pgp-key available via finger jmarttila@abo.fi ___________________________ 
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<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60964" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am thinking about buying a new motherboard and a cyrix 486dlc 40 or 33 mh z. it will be an upgrade from a 386sx 25. i was wondering if anybody has any facts they can fill me in on. if anybody has one what do you think about it? i will also get a cyrix math co with it. i have benchmarks for the two chips a nd they look very good for the price. if anybody responds please send me email because i usually don't check the mail very often but i check my reader daily. thanks for your info, and remember only respond if you have legitimate comp laints or praise, not just to cyrix/amd bash. i know about what byte, computer shopper, pc computing and etc... have said and that is why i am considering the cyrix chip. thanks......... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60966">
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 i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a 486dx2-66 with isa and vlb, or, a 486dx-50 with eisa and no vlb (and thus the non-local bus version of the ati card). which is better, keeping in mind that i'm primarily interested in the last two tasks? the april 13 issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running on both vlb and eisa: 800x600,16 800x600,256 1024x768,16 1024x768,256 eisa 15.34 15.34 15.19 15.15 vlb 16.02 16.31 16.33 16.24 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60970">
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 i recently installed dos 5.0 on a few machines, and the users claim that when they use the mouse often, the screen will blank, and the machine will lock up. there are no viruses, they are not running any tsr's. (the mouse is a logitec 2 button) anybody got any ideas? mark@cs.msstate.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60971">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60971" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 <clip clip> interesting. would you care to explain to me then, how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq 7 successfully? i assure you that they are both set to irq 7 and that i have no problem. my computer is a dtk 286-12 ibm clone. running ms-dos or a derivative os, obviously. please take note that the following is not what exactly happens, but a slightly simplified technically, the irq line is only a means for the device (printer adapter, soundblaster, modem, hard disk, ...) to signal the cpu that "something's happening here, please take note." how the cpu is programmed to handle this signal is usually up to the operating system. in ms-dos, the "interrupt vector" is used to store the address of the function that handles each interrupt. now, basic dos doesn't care whether the printer reports that it's ready to print some more stuff or not - it simply ignores the interrupt. when dos prints, it looks at the lpt buffer. if there's a character there, wait a while and check again. if there's not, copy a new character to the lpt port. since the irq 7 is ignored as a printer interrupt, it's free for use for any other adapters - in this case, the sb. with any multitasking or otherwise advanced os, this kind of printing approach just doesn't work (or more precisely, it wastes a lot of cpu cycles.) hence, you can't "share" the irq 7 with lpt1 and sb if you're running unix or os/2 or whatnot. another issue with the sb is that only the digitized sound uses interrupts. when the sb plays plain music, the cpu simply tells it what to play until told otherwise. with digitized sound the interrupt is required to notify the cpu when the output ends and new data is you can, however, hook two (or more) com ports to one interrupt, but use them only one at a time. this is because the interrupt handling routine is same for both ports, and it can see from which port the data came from. this, of course, applies for some other devices (like lpt) as well. remember, this was greatly simplified in parts, but i think gives the general picture correctly enough. juha liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi university of helsinki, dept. of lost souls "trust me, i know what i'm doing." - sledge hammer 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60972">
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 hello, i've been following discussions on 17" monitors in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews. i'm interested in getting more information about nanao's products ... how can i get ahold of nanao? nanao: call 1-800-800-5202. ask for a catalog. what's list and street cost - if avail. from a third party... buy a copy of computer shopper and take a look. one place with reasonable prices and good service - cad-warehouse in sububurban cleveland, ohio. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60975">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60975" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our %^*^&*^&* news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle. in addition to the facts that: (a) the modems (i had ordered two) wouldn't work as documented (b) the tech person had no clue as to how it should work, it also turned out that: (c) one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and (d) the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms250 tape drive start running away. that they are incompetent is one thing, but that they sell used stuff as new and won't even apologize for it is another. stay away from these crooks! bob wilson wilson@math.wisc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60976">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60976" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 the irq and interface-select jumpers are pretty straightforward, but i don't grok the settings of w10-w18 (also labelled a15 through a18). could somebody tell me which settings of these four jumpers correspond to what i/o addresses? the u-b pcnic (also oemed by ibm for a while) is the only ethernet card i know of that doesn't use i/o addresses. it only has interrupts and shared memory. the jumpers you see control bits 15-18 in the base address of the shared memory. i can't recall which is 1 and which 0, but that's easy to determine with debug. james b. vanbokkelen 2 high st., north andover, ma 01845 ftp software inc. voice: (508) 685-4000 fax: (508) 794-4488 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60980">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60980" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am servicing a machine (hp-286) and whenever the thing starts up i get 4 beeps on powerup. does anyone know what error message that signifies? i don't seem to have any problem with the machine but the lady who is using it is "very concerned" about it. don't you just love hp computers??? preferr responses by e-mail but i read the net so you can post it here. acs micro-computer & network technical support university of maryland baltimore county andrew@hotelca.tech.umbc.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60982">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60982" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am considering selling an atari 1040 and purchasing an ibm compa- tible. i need to know what kind of money or trade i can expect to get for the atari before i bother. i am about to start graduate school, and that means i'm about to be poor! (there's a price list for used synthesizers on rec.music.makers.synth, but no equivalent list for computers...) this system is tailor-made for a midi musician. details follow: * atari 1040 st tos 1.0 1 mb ram 720k floppy drive * supradrive 20 mb external scsi drive, 18 months old * 12" atari monochrome monitor * generic 2400 baud external modem * software: all software is registered and comes with manuals. passport's master tracks pro, version 2.5 (sequencing software) dr. t's copyist professional (scoring software) first word (word processor - *not* the pd version) megamax's laser c, version 2.0 (programming language) vip professional (spreadsheet package - low-tech lotus clone) partner st (desk accessory with integrated calendar, cardfile, etc.) migraph's easy draw (an early, pre-postscript release) neodesk (improved desktop for atari st) universal iii (improved file selector for atari st) miscellaneous software (including uniterm communications software) i will consider all prices above $900. i am also willing to trade the atari system for a quality (386 or 486) pc, including lap-tops. i own some pc hardware, so a complete system may not be necessary. == john j. ladasky ii ("ii") ========================= ladasky@netcom.com == "great composers do not borrow - "talking about music is like they steal." - john ladasky ~ - dancing about architecture." (quote stolen from stravinsky, who o o - elvis costello? laurie stole it from a statement made by > anderson? frank zappa? pablo picasso about painting, who \_/ ------------------------------- stole it from...) "property is theft." - groucho "a man w/o charity in his heart - what has he to do with music?" - confucius 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60985">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60985" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i went out and bought the pas16 yesterday, and installed it into my gateway dx2-66v. i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma 1 and irq5 (the default) and then the pas side with dma 5 and irq 10. my question is how should i configure for mpu-401 compatibility. the manual and installation program recommended irq2, but on my machine it is configured to [cascade] to irq8-15. so can i still use irq2, or should i choose a different one? right now i have the mpu-401 emulation mode turned off. actually what is this "cascade to irq8-15" business? a related questions (to other gw or vl-bus machine owners) i was told that only dma 5, 6, 7 are 16 bit dmas, and 0-4 are 8 bit dmas. now what about 32-bit vl-bus mastering dmas?? which dma channel(s) is used by the vl-bus extension to do 32-bit dma? yet another question, after installing pas16, my links (golf game) will hang the machine when i select sb mode and run, but works with adlib mode?? civilization however works fine ( at least so far). any body knows what i might have done wrong? thanks (i am obviously a newbie) -- john 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60987">
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 a friend recently bought a used 286. the brand is syntrex. it didn't come with any documentation and i am trying to find some information about the computer. so the question is, has anyone heard of it? if you know anything about these please drop me a note. thank you diana sartorius dsartori@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60988">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60988" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 would someone be willing to explain to me the 486dx 50mhz is not more popular than it is? i would think it would be just as fast, if not faster than the 486dx 66mhz for certian applications. plus, a 50mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future. i must be missing something, since everyone is buying the dx2 66... many adds don't even mention the dx 50. thanks a lot, 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60989">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60989" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a 486dx-33 isa pc-compatible (insight) with an infotel internal 14.4fax/14.4data modem with quicklinkii for windows. when i first put the modem in, i pulled a phone out of the jack in another room, and ran a phone line extension to my surge protector and then my computer. the modem worked fine. then i split the line from the jack in the other room, ran the line into my room into the surge protector and up to my computer. then i got a regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack in the modem. now when i try to use the modem, quicklinkii says "no dialtone". the phone plugged into the back of the computer works fine. i tried unplugging the phone, but still no dice. is it that the phone line was split too many times? (i don't understand how this could be a problem, since the phone worked fine.) please note: none of the software or hardware parameters were changed, only the phone line itself. is my new modem faulty? what can i do? try swapping the phone cables in the back of the modem. the golden gryphon gryphon@openage.com "the crown jewel of the american prison system." - president bill clinton on living in the white house. openage - the premier sco unix integrator in the washington d.c. area 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware60995">
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 i've yet to hear from someone running a 34f on any motherboard with nt without shutting off the cache. consider it heard! ami enterprise iii eisa/vlb w/ ultrastor 34f edward mcclanahan edm@wrs.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61000">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61000" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like 1024x1024 ni. i want a high resolution versital monitor. this monitor need not be large (=>17") if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above. i've been very happy with a 16" on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home. i'm interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun's fairly often and look pretty good (to me at least). i haven't seem them brought up in c.s.i.p.h very often as are mag and viewsonic. give the new viewsonic 17 a good look. i have seen it side by side with an old viewsonic 7, a mag 17, a nanao 17" (not the trinitron one), and a sony oem 17" (which does have a trinitron tube). the new viewsonic beat all of them easily in terms of picture quality, and i think it is far superior to the 16" sun that i am staring at now. the place asks $1178 for it; i would have bought it if i had not just bought a 15" nanao f340iw a week earlier :( keh-cheng what tube does the viewsonic 17 use? does is support 1600x1280? i've been looking a a philips 1762dt which uses a sony trinitron tube, has digital controls, supports up to 1280x1024ni, and has .25mm dot pitch - it can be found for under $1000. _______________________________________- brian schaufenbuel____________________ | brian j schaufenbuel [ "there is no art which one government sooner learns ] | helser 3644 halsted [ than that of draining money from the pockets of the ] | ames, ia 50012 [ people [especially college students]." - adam smith ] 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61001">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61001" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (wayne smith) write: since the mac uses only scsi-1 for hard drives yes the "figure includes a hundred $$$ for scsi drivers" this is sloppy people and dumb. what group is this? this is not a mac group. nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it. to whit: i just bought at quantum 240 for my mac at home. i paid $369 for it. i [tons of stuff deleted on scsi vs. ide question...] wow, you guys are really going wild on this ide vs. scsi thing, and i think it's great! like lots of people, i'd really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive. right now i have a 15ms 210mb ide drive (seagate 1239a), and what i would say is a standard (not special, no cache i believe) ide controller card on my isa 486-50. i'm currently thinking about adding another hd, in the 300mb to 500mb range. and i'm thinking hard (you should hear those gears a-grinding in my head) about buying a scsi drive (scsi for the future benefit). i believe i'm getting something like 890kb/sec transfer right now (according to nu). how would this number compare if i bought the state-of-the-art scsi card for my isa pc, and the state-of-the-art scsi hard drive (the wailing-est system i could hope for)? obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other, but what would you want to use on your isa system? and how much would it cost? along those lines, what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd's if i were to buy the top-of-the-line ide caching controller for my 200mb, 15ms hd? and how much would it cost? i actually have a pas-16, and could (what a waste i guess it would be...) hook up a scsi hd through it's scsi port which yields an optimum of 690kb/sec. actually, i have a borrowed 12ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now (and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas-16 scsi port). is this scsi port a scsi-2 port? how could i tell? is the fujitsu 2623a a scsi-2? are all scsi hd's scsi-2? thanks for any comments on these rephrased questions. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61003">
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 i have one of these monitors. it appears to function ok, but is unhookable to anything standard (cga,ega,vga) - it will plug in but gives fuzzy diagonal noise. i also have a graphics board that is apparently a 3270 graphic board (double card with 2 8-bit bus connectors, and a 9-pin female connector with a picture of monitor). i tried plugging these two into a standard at to no avail. how can one connect these to (the monitor seems to be of relatively high quality, so i'm curious)? any special drivers and/or setup needed - i can't locate any jumpers on the card. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61004">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61004" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am think of buying a new computer through the mail order, i am looking at the gateway 2000 66v systen and the zeos's system. which is better (in terms of value, price, ungrade, service), because i am in canada, i wonder can i have the same level of service as in the states? thank you for any advice! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61005">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61005" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 ...hm, i've found the dtk customer support bbs - anyone know if magitronic run one too? (hands up all those that have possibly useful cards made by either manufacturer and no docs or drivers! <g>) please email me directly if you happen to have a number. lee (lee@tosspot.sv.com) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61006">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61006" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have heard about a linear mode for the et4000, in which the 1mb video memory in linearly accesibly instead of the usual 64k pages. does anyone know more about this ? how can i enable it and to what address is the video memory mapped to ? a. mostert stellenbosch, rsa mostert@cs.sun.ac.za 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61011">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61011" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i'm looking into getting an external, reasonably fast (<350 ms avg access time) multispin cd-rom drive that supports "photo cd multi session", has audio output, and scsi interface for connection to the pas16 scsi port. does anyone have any comments/experiences/warnings/recommendations they'd like to share concerning the texel dm-5024 and/or toshiba txm-3401e and/or others. thanks! hal r. brand brand@s1.gov 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61012">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61012" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 how hot should the cpu in a 486-33 dx machine be? currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than 0.5 s. i keep a big fan blowing on it, but am considering using a heat sink. any advice? 1. don't hold your finger on it 2. when cooking with it use a very small pan and be sure to not spill liquids on the components 3. if you do not plan to cook with it there are a number of small cooling fans designed to mount on the chip and plug into your power supply. look in consumer shoppers. now if only some innovative person could design and produce a heat sink which could be used to keep my coffee warm, why i might even buy a pentium ! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61015">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61015" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 looking for help in just the right place... does anyone have experience with the promise technology caching ide controller dc99m? i just ordered one, $110 with 512k installed, and have a few questions: 1. is it easy to use? does it need any kind of tsr's, or is it completely transparent to the system board, so that i won't have to change the bios configuration? yes, it's easy to use. it's just like an ordinary controller. you don't have to change the bios config. 2. is it transparent to the ide drive? will it work with any drive or does it have to be configured explicity for the type of drive it's transparent. it works with any drive. if you change the drive you only need to change the bios config. as usual. 3. will it work with a dual-drive system (master and slave)? yes, no problem. 4. with it, will i need smartdrive or dos buffers? that depends. you will get a little better performance if you use smartdrive and buffers in addition. that's because access to the card through the isa bus is slower than access to system ram. i don't use smartdrive myself, but i have a few buffers. 5. is the promise technology controller a good one? any information would be greatly appreciated. thanks! david livigni | livigni@bldrdoc.gov - anything stated here is my opinion only! y @--d | | rule of the great: | | when people you greatly admire appear to be thinking deep | | thoughts, they probably are thinking about lunch. | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61018">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61018" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i'm trying to get in touch with mitsumi - anyone have their number? --- --- frank pikelner /~\ \ \ \ technical assistant, department of computer science <v.v> \- \-- york university (toronto, canada) ,\^/; \ \ internet: frank@cs.yorku.ca _{!}_ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61019">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61019" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 hi, any body has experience with the ultrastor ultrascsi driver package? i also need the phone number for ultrastor (it's not in the book) and i cannot find them in the company listing in computer shopper. thanks in advance tony kwong (908) 699-4130 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61026">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61026" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i bought, on the net here, a mini-tower 386dx25 system. it works fine, but i have no docs on the motherboard. does anyone know who a manufacturer named wpi is? that is the only marking on the board that is not related to a chip/connector name. it says (c)1991, wpi also, this board has a connector at the other end of the motherboard, it looks like this: | batt | | 387 | socket for 387 math coprocessor | 386 | 386 chip is about here | ========= ==== j | = signs are the isa slots | ========= ==== m | | ========= p | jumpers for turbo/kb etc are where | ========= ==== ------ e | marked | ========= ==== ------ r | | ========= ==== ------ s | - signs are 8 banks of simm sockets | ========= ==== ======= | <<<these connectors are the mystery +---------------------------------+ connectors!!!! what is this connector? is this a place to plug an extra memory board in? i've seen thatr mentioned in some motherboard docs. some allow an 8-meg card and 8 meg in simms. is this what it is for? phil hunt "wherever you go, there you are!" howtek, inc. internet: phil@howtek.mv.com uucp: {decvax|harvard}!mv!howtek!phil 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61028">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61028" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd5426 chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp.cica.indiana.edu (file is 5426dr13.zip). they're very recent, i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs (570-226-2365) last night. if you are unable to get them there, email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well. i have a local bus based card (vl24 bitblaster from micron) but i think the drivers work with isa cards (or at least includes drivers for them). i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the 1.2 version, improving my graphic winmarks (v3.11) by about 2 million (7.77 to 9.88) although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus's part but i don't think so. from steve gibson's (columnist for info world) graphic card comparisons (also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv.zip) i extracted the following for the sake of comparison: winbn3.11 word sprsht cad paint overall steve's system: 486/33 vlb: ati graphics ultra pro 9.33 10.34 20.78 8.28 14.90 13.58 my system - 486sx/33 vlb: vl24 bitblaster 9.88 8.65 11.71 18.84 15.40 13.65 its no viper, but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson's review. micron system owner's, i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc 2270vl local bus disk controller. my system came with a maxtor 7120 drive (120 mb) and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about 16 kb/s, i am now at 22 kb/s. is this about as good as it gets? i can't get a norton's sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls, at least that was what the program said. oliver weatherbee oliver@earthview 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61032">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61032" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 well, i've installed dos 6.0 in three different systems, with and without stacker; a friend installed it in two other systems, both with stacker. not a single problem. (except perhaps some minor bugs with config.sys menus) he's right ya know. i've helped to install dos 6 on about 4 computers now, mine included. on one, he bought the stacker to doublespace converter, and it worked fine (rather, he sent in the coupon for the converter). in other cases, i've run the doublespace installation without a problem when compressing a new drive, compressing free space, or whatever else. seems to work for me. ofcourse, we did not, repeat, not run any program called "install" or "setup" or "a very sophisticated ai auto-configuring setup installation program that will think for you and do what you never wanted to do but couldn't stop it from doing" well, i ran the normal setup thing and it worked fine for whatever that's also, dblspace is crap. it writes about 40% slower than stacker, reads about 20% slower, and compresses about 10% less. all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk, no cache, and the same (big) files were used. couldn't agree more. on my 486-50 i don't miss the speed. it's still faster than a normal disk read would be. as for the less compression, i've sacrificed that in favor of the convenience of having the dblspace.bin load before anything else. with stacker, any changes to your config.sys or autoexec.bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those. personally, i'm waiting for stacker 4.0 to come out and implement those hooks and stuff. plus, the defrag that comes with dos is okay, but i much prefer compress from pc-tools for sheer bells and whistles. plus, defrag is sooooo sloooow on a dblspace drive. but, dos 6 is quite good; reformat disks? i honestly don't understand why you had to do this. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61033">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61033" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 greetings.. i'm a novice in messing comp. hardware. my original ide hd is a 42mb western digital which came with the system when i bought it. and i just got a 213mb ide hd maxtor that i wanted to add as a slave drive. i did change the jumper settings on 213a maxtor to configure it as slave drv, but i didn't change anything on my 42m western dig, since i didn't have any doc. on it. and as i predicted, it just beeped and gave me an error message about hdd controller. so, i had to take my 42m off & install my 213a to be my only hd. any help on this matter would be much appreciated. (before i trashed my 42mb) thankx much handy trisakti - uc532838@mizzou1.missouri.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61035">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61035" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 just curious why floptical drives never seemed to catch on. remember those 21 mb disks that look and feel like 3.5" floppies? these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both 720 kb and 1.44/21 mb disks. sounds to me to be one great product for the pc market. are the prices really that unaffordable compared to cd-roms which are currently not rewritable? i know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony to develop the first mds for the computer. my question is: why isn't there any substantial interest in developing the flopticals? just a thought. kin chan sparrow+@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61038">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61038" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking to upgrade my hard drive to a much bigger one since i find myself kinda cramped on space, althuogh i have never filled it i would like the extra comfort of 30 megs or so. if anyone would like to sell/trade a newish 80 meg or bigger hard drive for 125 straight and 75 with a trade please e-mail me back at johng2matt.ksu.ksu.edu with an offer. i would also sell my hard drive for about 60$ if you really want it. it's a 42mb western digital ide. other than that i am not sure what the transfer rate is, but it is pretty fast. faster than my roommates teac drive. i have addstor running on it now and have had it for about 5 months. i have *never* had a problem with it and would guarantee it works upon deliveree. thanks p.s. i would love a maxtor 130 hard drive 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61039">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61039" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 are there anyone who wants to sell used 386dx-33 motherboard? if you have one please let me know the price and the specification i am also interested in buying trident vga card (1meg) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61040">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61040" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 | >i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a | >486dx2-66 with isa and vlb, or, a 486dx-50 with eisa and no vlb (and thus | >the non-local bus version of the ati card). which is better, keeping in mind | >that i'm primarily interested in the last two tasks? | the april 13 issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro | running on both vlb and eisa: | 800x600,16 800x600,256 1024x768,16 1024x768,256 | eisa 15.34 15.34 15.19 15.15 | vlb 16.02 16.31 16.33 16.24 this a wightened speed avarage for many windows tasks. the original poster (ross mitchell) was primary intersted in manipulating large images, which implies moving a lot of data from memory to the card. does anyone have the benchmarks on this particular task? penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61042">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61042" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 ok, so i've heard about comtrade, gateway, tc, and various others. what about your impressions/dealings with dell, ariel design, austin, insight, royal, and hd computers? responses by e-mail are preferred because they reduce usenet bandwidth. i will summarize the responses with another posting in a week. blake buhlig colorado state university bb760597@longs.lance.colostate.edu electrical/computer engineering 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61043">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61043" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 --> a humble response to a letter by g. scott braley written 04-21-93 20:43. gsb> a 286 upgrade would probably cost about $50, 386 about $150 or so. gsb> coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much. 'tis true! i just saw an add for 286/20 motherboards for $80. i have seen whole 286/12 systems, complete with case, power supply, keyboard, floppy, and mono card/monitor going for $250. ... "he was a man, all and all, i shall not look upon his like again." --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61044">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61044" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 --> a humble response to a letter by gordon lang written 04-21-93 22:09. gl> : i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null gl> modem : cable. (actually i have no idea, so don't count that last gl> statement.) what i'm : asking is what pins does it use (or what are gl> it's specifications?) i just want : to solder one myself instead of gl> buying one. i don't even know what port is : used. you may want to save yourself the trouble and go to radio shack. they have a null modem adapter which is a 9 pin connector that swaps the necessary pins to allow two machines to communicate. these are a lot easier than soldering the connections yourself, and usually a bit more reliable. ... p.e.t.a. people for the eating of tasty animals --- blue wave/qwk v2.10 the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61045">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61045" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 | i went out and bought the pas16 yesterday, and installed it into my gateway | dx2-66v. i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma 1 and irq5 what is pas16? any articles (or reviews) describing it? penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61046">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61046" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am wanting to upgrade from a 386sx-25, to a 486dx-33, and are looking at a cheap quote from someone offering me a 486dx-33 motherboard, with no ram in it. (i will probably sell my old m-board off somewhere) now, i have 4 meg of ram in my 386, which consists of 4 x 9 module 1024kb simms, running at 70 nanoseconds. would i encounter problems with the pointed out areas, by throwing these from one computer to the other? any comments gratefully (e-mail preferred) appreciated. /#\\ brett paterson: <- no i am not dyslexic. \ /#\#/ email : s1070627@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au / \\#/ leongatha, victoria, australia. / \/______________________________________________/ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61048">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61048" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 diamond video cards (stealth, viper, speedstar, etc...) may have excellent specifications, and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast, but: if you're considering buying a system, with a view to using it to run unix (linux, bsd, etc...) or some other special software, there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards. this is due to diamond's propriety attitude to it's hardware: it's impossible to get free information from them about their chips (specifically their dot-clocks) without paying, and signing non-disclosure this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x-windows compatibility with these cards, as diamond didn't want to divulge programming neccessities. as far as i know only diamond has this propriety on it's info. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61052">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61052" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 1) what do i gain with this new bios? it fixed a problem for us of getting divide errors that were caused by the gw bios overwriting some interapplication memory area. our problem was with clarion database programs, but i also heard that it fixed the same problem with brief pat gleason | maybe something good, maybe something pgleason@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com | bad, i guess we'll never know ! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61056">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61056" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 once again, someone else with a gateway monitor problem, anyone who can help, please do, it would be much apprieciated. thanks in advance. ok, i have a local bus 486/66 machine, with the crystal scan 15inch monitor. i have 1 meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro, w/ the mach32 driver (the newest release). my problem is in windows when i use the 1024 mode. i get shadows down the sides of the screens, and very blurry type in the corners. the types on the screen are all out of focus. i've gotten replacement video cards, and a replacement monitor. none of that has helped though. could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem. try removing the monitor extension cable. reports are that the extension cable is causeing these problems. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61058">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61058" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone out there have at hand the phone or fax number for tech power, who are a pc motherboard manufacturer (may be known as tech power enterprises). thannks in advance | e-mail: chris.forker@newcastle.ac.uk | dept. marine technology | | voice: +44 91 222-8557 | newcastle university | | fax: +44 91 2616059 | newcastle upon tyne | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61059">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61059" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi peeps, here's another of those "any ideas" type queries. i've been given an oldish phillips televideo terminal type thingy, without a keyboard. but no problem so far. when i dismantled it, i discovered that it is really just a standard rgb monitor with built in modem/rom software etc. phillips kindly labelled the circuit board with the rgb inputs, so i connected it up as a monitor and he presto it worked - sort of. the problem is that i have no idea where to connect the sync lines. the display rolls continuously, but does change modes (ok only to cga - but useful for my laptop). any of you wonderful people any knowledge of phillips monitors? i've tried phillips in the uk and a very helpful guy told me that he has had several enquiries of this sort, but phillips computer is now under the auspices of dec (at least in the uk). dec said sorry phillips don't make it any more. what is it anyway? a uk support dealer said "circuit diagrams? sync?" so any ideas. quote: computer scientists are not boring. they're wonderful, exciting, interesting people who just happen to like talking to inanimate objects as if they are human. by me. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61060">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61060" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 : worked fine.) please note: none of the software or hardware parameters : were changed, only the phone line itself. is my new modem faulty? what : can i do? : david thomas dudek / v098pwxs@ubvms.bitnet \ __ _ the cybard i'm arguing with the phone company about a similar problem. we installed a second phone line in our home (for our kids), and whenever one of them is on their line, the modem returns "no dial tone" on its when we pick up the phone and listen, we can hear my kids' voices "bleed" through. whenever we can hear this, the modem won't dial (even though the dial tone is loud and clear through the modem speaker). i think it's the phone company's problem, but they say they can't (won't?) correct the problem...i'm still working on them. ;-} reid r. buyaky | sysop: heartland multiline bbs micro resources, inc. | (614) 846-7669 dublin, ohio | unix systems integrators | net: rbuyaky@mr.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61061">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61061" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 seeing all these questions about uart types, their availability, and their relative merits, wouldn't it be fine, if for internal highspeed modems there were a mode of operation bypassing the dull and stupid uart interface and instead accessing directly the relatively large send/receive buffers of the modem, thus eliminating all problems with interrupt latencies ? just an idea, wolfgang r. mueller <dvs@ze8.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de>, computing centre, heinrich-heine-university, duesseldorf, germany. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61064">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61064" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up? no. all that i've seen have also an on-board bios which enables you to use up to 2 hard drives directly under dos (2 drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter). software drivers often allow for better performance, though. you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than 2 disks. will this also be true of the 32-bit os's? obviously these are not able to use the 16-bit real mode bioses that are written for dos, so you need software drivers. that's not a big deal (as long as the drivers are available), because you won't have to fight with any low memory problems either. segmented memory helps structure software 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61066">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61066" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 when posting winmark results, it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores, as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers. doesn't anybody actually read the licence agreement of winbench before blindly running it? the licence agreement very clearly says that details about hardware configuration, driver, resolution and other relevant facts *must* be included when giving winmark results. ziff-davis wants everybody to do this and that requirement makes sense, really! plain numbers are useless when resolution, driver and machine are unknown. pekka.taipale@hut.fi 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61069">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61069" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a 486dx2-66 with isa and vlb, or, a 486dx-50 with eisa and no vlb (and thus the non-local bus version of the ati card). which is better, keeping in mind that i'm primarily interested in the last two tasks? micronics & ami came out with eisa/vlb motherboards. byte mag tests indicate that vlb is faster for video but eisa is faster for disk ops. so i'll wait for gw2k to hopefully start using the micronics board. mark ashley |disclaimer: my opinions. not harris' marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com | the lost los angelino | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61071">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61071" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am planning on upgrading my old xt compatible system with a new motherboard, hard drive, and 1.4 mb floppy. i am interested in using my old power supply (150 w) to power the new hardware, if possible. i have been told by the motherboard vendor that i could probably use the supply if it had twelve wires going to the motherboard. (apparently some xt vintage supplies had only 11 wires -- the 12th wire is a 5v line used to charge the motherboard battery). my question is has anybody tried bringing an additional wire out of an 11 wire supply or using an auxiliary power source to charge the motherboard battery? i do not wish to buy an entirely new power supply if i can make use of my existing one with simple hacks. thank you for any information. an email reply to rarbanas@rcsuna.gmr.com would be fine. -larry arbanas 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61073">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61073" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know if there are any problems (or if it's possible) adding a third hard drive(scsi) to a dos pc. i currently have a 386 pc with future domain scsi board and 2 maxtor scsi drives installed. they work great, i haven't had any problems! well, now i want more disk space and went out and got another (larger) scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain(50pin ribbon that has 3 connectors) and run the fdisk program to format/initialize the disk. that didn't happen. when the pc boots, the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board[target 0/target1/target2]. all three disks are seen. when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk, i choose to select another disk(option 5(dos6)) and voila, it's not there. the first two disks show up no problem, but the third disk is no-where to be found.... i have got an adaptec scsi card, that comes with its own version of fdisk. the problem with dos is that it will only see two hard disks, any more need to be done by device drivers. odd, fdisk works fine for me with 2 ide drives and a scsi drive on my ultrastor 14f - only with the device driver loaded, though. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61075">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61075" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 {> in a previous article, cs3sd3ae@maccs.mcmaster.ca (holly ks) says: {> >what is the difference between the us robotics courier v32bis external and t {> >sportster 14400 external? i see that the price of a sportster has dramatical {> >dropped to below $200 but the price of the courier remains above $400. {> >anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier? {> the sportster at 14.4 has v.42 error control and v.42 bis data compression. {> this is becoming standard on all these high speed modems. the difference {> with the courier, is that it can run at 16.8 and only in the hst mode. the courrier will not run at 16800 only the dual standard hst (the usr modem over $600) my courrier will do up to 14,400 and with compression error correction, much more. it will do v.32 v.32bis v.42 v.42bis v.22 etc. etc and asl too. (whatever asl is) china cat bbs c-cat!david@sed.csc.com (301)604-5976 1200-14,400 8n1 ...uunet!mimsy!anagld!c-cat!david 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61076">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61076" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 [discussing the use of irq 7] i as a number of poeple in this thread have already written (i can't prove it's true, but i believe it), lpt1 does not actually use irq7, even though that interrupt is supposed to be dedicated to lpt1. to put it a little differently: - irq 7 is the de facto standard interrupt assigned to be used by the printer adapter to announce its completion of some activity. - dos doesn't monitor irq 7; it uses other means to determine when it's time to send out another byte to the printer. - most (all?) (hardware) printer adapters have the ability to disable the use of irq 7, usually by merely breaking the connection between the isa pin and the associated driver. other adapters control the irq line by a tri-state driver, and by programming just leave it in the high-impedence mode. - unfortunately, there are a lot of adapter cards which use bistate drivers (i.e., either assert high or assert low) for the irq lines rather than tristate drivers (assert high, assert low, or don't assert anything). the presence of such a card on an irq line precludes the use of that irq by any other adapter unless it is physically disconnected by a jumper. (incidentally, note that there's no requirement that a card hold the irq line low when no interrupt is desired. if that were true you would have to somehow tie down all unconnected irq lines, and that certainly isn't a requirement.) - non-dos operating systems (os/2, nt (?), various unices or whatever the proper plural of unix might be) require the use of irq 7 for performance and the sb16, alas, is one of the cards which uses bistate drivers. joe morris / mitre (jcmorris@mitre.org) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61079">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61079" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 also, dblspace is crap. it writes about 40% slower than stacker, reads about 20% slower, and compresses about 10% less. all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk, no cache, and the same (big) files were used. couldn't agree more. on my 486-50 i don't miss the speed. it's still faster than a normal disk read would be. as for the less compression, i recall reading a review article in pc computing wherein they reported a reduction in the loading time for lengthy programs using stacker 3.0. this was not due to the compression algorithm per se, but to the fact that fewer fetches were required during the sequential file access. does anyone have any actual performance numbers relating to speeds of stacker and dblspace? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61081">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61081" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 diamond video cards (stealth, viper, speedstar, etc...) may have excellent specifications, and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast, but: most fellow diamond video board owners with whom i've corresponded may or may not share your opinion about the proprietary clocking scheme, but all of those with whom i've chatted have not been thrilled with the window's drivers, either. some modes work fine, but others cause strange misdrawn objects, trails, etc. many have also voiced their strong discontent to diamond's ambivalent attitude toward os/2 drivers. come to think of it, though, i hear and see a lot of complaints about the ati boards too, though recent word looks like the build 59 code looks much better. does anyone have an accelerated video board with drivers for windows (os/2?) where all the modes function properly? anyone? anyone? lance hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) yes, that is a '%' (percent sign) in my network address. all statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61083">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61083" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 after reading many postings concerning hard drives i'm still unclear about one thing. these new "cached hard drives" - is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate, like on the controller or something? thanks to anyone who can clear this up. (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61084">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61084" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hello, if you have any experience/knowledge/comments/advice/etc about compaq's eisa deskpro machines, please reply. (preferably via email) i'm thinking of getting one and am looking for any & all user comments. ps-i'm looking at a 66/m. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61088">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61088" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 did you ever notice that 99% of all the problems are from people that run windows! thanks ms... gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61089">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61089" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i hope that there's somebody out there that can help us. some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always. what we'd like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password. we have tried switching bios, but to no avail. the battery is soldered to the bord, an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can't remove the batteries. thanks isak isak venter itbijv@puknet.puk.ac.za :-) money can't buy happiness, but surely pays for the illusion. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61090">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61090" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 if you're considering buying a system, with a view to using it to run unix (linux, bsd, etc...) or some other special software, there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards. that is, if the special software is free, like xfree86. there are vendors that sells diamond x drivers for commercial unices. but then, they charge $$$$. this is due to diamond's propriety attitude to it's hardware: it's impossible to get free information from them about their chips (specifically their dot-clocks) without paying, and signing non-disclosure i think they only need a signing (i.e. no paying). this still violates the fsf's policy of publically available code. this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x-windows compatibility with these cards, as diamond didn't want to divulge programming neccessities. while this is true, there are fixes for those who have already bought diamond cards. in linux, for example, there are utilities that will put the card in vesa mode before invoking x. of course, this means no fine tuning of diamond cards, but at least this will allow those who're stuck with them to use linux+x. i agree with mark's suggestion: if you are buying a video card for specialized free software, avoid diamond. but if you already have one, there may be a fix that can help you. jjctc@chevron.com | the shortest distance between jtsiao@netcom.com | two puns is a straight line. ask me about linux, the freely distributable unix clone for the 386/486. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61091">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61091" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 re: midwest micro, article #61200 (61302 is last): newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,misc.consumers i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our %^*^&*^&* news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle. in addition to the facts that: (a) the modems (i had ordered two) wouldn't work as documented (b) the tech person had no clue as to how it should work, it also turned out that: (c) one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and (d) the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms250 tape drive start running away. that they are incompetent is one thing, but that they sell used stuff as new and won't even apologize for it is another. stay away from these crooks! bob wilson shown 97%, press <space> for more, 'q' to quit, or 'h' for help wilson@math.wisc.edu end of file, press return to quit i have walked into micro center here in the cleveland area and bought a new track ball and picked the only one that was sealed in plastic rap. only to get it home and oped it up to find a good year old used dirty old track ball with a warranty card for some software package. i would never even think of installing anything that looked like it was used at all. you should of called medwest micro and made them do a pus pull tag on it. they would of picked it up and sent you out a ner one the same day. things get better in knowing how to but equipment after the first try! gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61093">
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 some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always. what we'd like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password. we have tried switching bios, but to no avail. the battery is soldered to the bord, an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can't remove the batteries. as far as i know, there is no way to get around the bios password except by shorting out the power supply to the cmos memory, thereby erasing it. this will remove the password, but it will also destroy all the previous bios settings, so then you'll have to go and set them all up again. on my 386, there is a jumper on the motherboard which is provided for the purpose of shorting the battery. you just short this jumper briefly, and it interrupts power to the cmos long enough to erase it. i would imagine there is something like this on your board too. in the future, i would suggest that you set the password, and leave it on "setup" only. that way, no-one else can go and reset it or set it to " always" unless they know what password you used. they had to do this over here too when they got a bunch of new 386's, for just the same reason. | dale m. nurden \ / nurden1@elaine.ee.und.ac.za | | _ # _ | | technical co-ordinator | dept. of electronic engineering | | durban youth radio /|\ university of natal, durban | | durban, south africa __/_|_\__ south africa | \______________________________________________________________________/ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61095">
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 that might look like a dull request, but i have been following this newgroup for a couple of weeks and it didn't help me make my mind. i bought a new 486 machine not long ago after being disconnected from the pc world for a while (i have been running on an xt 5mhz till last january!!). the machine i bought came equipped with a ati vga xl 24 graphic card. it gives a very nice picture and the windows drivers are pretty stable. the only problem is that it is quite slow. i would like to go for a faster card (not in the 400$ range). i saw a lot of comments on many products over the last weeks, but didn't get an overall picture clear enough to make a choice. my question is : could somebody direct me to a source of information which would help me in my quest. i would like to get information about : - the refresh rates the various cards provide; - quality of windows drivers; - standard vga performance (non-windows stuff). direct me to a magazine article or something like that (i got winvid.zip info, but it is not enough). if you have an isa card you are really satisfied with it, let me know. if this information is of any use, here is my system configuration: - fujikama 486 33mhz isa system (contaq motherboard) - monitor darius 14" non-interlaced multisync (up to 1024x768) (can reach 70khz horizontally) i would also like to know if it is a standard for video drivers to allow screen dimensioning and screen positioning by writing on the eprom of the graphic card. this is the case with my ati card and it is very convenient when changing graphics mode since my monitor is not intelligent enough to record settings. merci a l'avance for any information you would be kind enough to provide me, guy lamouche lamouche@ere.umontreal.ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61096">
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 with stacker, any changes to your config.sys or autoexec.bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those. this is not necessary. all you have to do is modify the config.sys on d:\ { or the real boot up partition/disk }. then, you can manually copy it to c:\ or allow stacker to do it on boot up. likewise with the autoexec.bat. private note to jennifer fakult. "this post may contain one or more of the following: sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and/or thrown for a loop. if in doubt, assume all of the above. the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above. read at your own risk, jennifer." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61098">
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 what's the difference between a 16550 uart and a 16550a uart? thanks! the difference is that the 16550 got bugs while the 16550a can be used whithout problems even in fast serial communications. other sources say that only the 16550afn from nat semi (i.e. not: second sources) is really ok. best wishes 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61100">
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 then again, maybe $2445 for the gateway system isn't too cheap. i have a system from micron computers: 486-2-50, 16 meg ram, 245 maxtor hd, local bus ide / 2 meg video card, and the same 15" monitor. the system with shipping came to $2200. i sold the sx-33 chip that came with it and bought a dx2-50. total price $2300-2400. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61105">
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 i currently have a ad-lib card, it can play .mid files in windows but it cannot play the startup .wav files.. i called microsoft... no help. i cannot call ad-lib since they went belly up. does anyone know if there are special drivers that i need for this? if so, where are they? thanx in ad-libvance!! :-) c_ommon pchang@ic.sunysb.edu s_ense state university of new york @ stony brook 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61106">
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 i posted this once but didn't receive any responses. i've been looking for a good notebook for about $1700. my two favorites are the zeos freestyle/sl and the micro something or other winbook (the one with the apple powerbook style trackball and handrest and the 486slc). any suggestions on others? i'd love to hear from someone who has one of the two mentioned above, too. thanks in advance, james r. lendino | | computer science | i486 | phone: (212)-853-7783 columbia s.e.a.s. |______| internet: jrl8@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61108">
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 i need to know the jumper settings for master and/or slave operation on a maxtor 7080at (80mb ide) hard disk. thanks in advance. erik svensson ers@skanska.se tel: +46-8-7538112 skanska data, s-182 25 danderyd, sweden fax: +46-8-7538306 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61111">
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 i want to know if a spoilt com port will create problems with mouse ?? my mouse just gets stuck on the screen for a while and i have to press its button to be able to move it around again..... is there a shareware utility program to diagnose my com ports? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61112">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61112" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i just bought a western digital/caviar 340mb ide drive and i want to add it to my system which already has a wd120 ide drive. the controller says it supports 2 hard drives, but when i plug in the cables, do the bios setup, and try to start the system, it pauses and then i get an invalid drive d: error message. the system boots, but i cannot access the new hard drive. the new drive works fine as drive c if it's all alone, but i am not able to get both drives working at the same time. any help is appreciated. you need to run fdisk. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61113">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61113" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 my 3.5" floppy drive stopped recognizing low density (720k) floppies. the controller and drive works fine in another system. i was told it could be the dma chip. the system is a 386dx-25 using chips & technology chip set. i'm open to all suggestions. please send your replies to: ken@jazz.concert.net thanks in advance!!! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61114">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61114" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 gateway service has confirmed my suspicion, echoed by a couple of people who responded to the original request for help. the ati vlb video board uses the addresses for com 4. they could suggest no work around. i will be returning the df io card they supplied for com 4 (even though it could not possibly work) for credit against a bus mouse. this will free up the com port i need - too bad the original salesman who suggested either the df io card or the bus mouse would solve my need for a port didn't know enough about the hardware. otherwise i must say that the 486dx2/66 system has worked very well - no problems with any other hardware or software. john siegel k4bnc@cbnewsh.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61120">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61120" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable. (actually i have no idea, so don't count that last statement.) what i'm asking is what pins does it use (or what are it's specifications?) i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one. i don't even know what port is db-25 db-9 pin # pin # name eia ccitt dte-dce description 1 fg aa 101 ---- frame ground 2 3 td ba 103 ---> transmitted data 3 2 rd bb 104 <--- received data 4 7 rts ca 105 ---> request to send 5 8 cts cb 106 <--- clear to send 6 6 dsr cc 107 <--- data set ready 7 5 sg ab 102 ---- signal ground 8 1 dcd cf 109 <--- data carrier detect 9 -- -- - - positive dc test voltage 10 -- -- - - negative dc test voltage 11 qm -- - <--- equalizer mode 12 sdcd scf 122 <--- secondary data carrier detect 13 scts scb 121 <--- secondary clear to send 14 std sba 118 ---> secondary transmitted data 15 tc db 114 <--- transmitter clock 16 srd sbb 119 <--- secondary receiver clock 17 rc dd 115 ---> receiver clock 18 dcr -- - <--- divided clock receiver 19 srts sca 120 ---> secondary request to send 20 4 dtr cd 108.2 ---> data terminal ready 21 sq cg 110 <--- signal quality 22 9 ri ce 125 <--- ring indicator 23 -- ch 111 ---> data rate selector 24 -- ci 112 <--- data rate selector 25 tc da 113 <--- transmitted clock .-.-.- from another posting in c.s.i.p.h .-.-.- .-.-.- sorry, don't know the author .-.-.-.-.-. connecting devices normally, a 7 wire connection is used. connect: gnd1 to gnd2 rxd1 to txd2 txd1 to rxd2 dtr1 to dsr2 dsr1 to dtr2 rts1 to cts2 cts1 to rts2 if a modem is connected, add lines for the following: ri, dcd if software wants it, connect dcd1 to cts1 and dcd2 to cts2. beware! while pcs use pin 2 for rxd and pin 3 for txd, modems normally have those pins reversed! this allows to easily connect pin1 to pin1, pin2 to pin 2 etc. if you connect two pcs, cross rxd and txd. if hardware handshaking is not needed, a so-called null-modem connection can be used. connect: gnd1 to gnd2 rxd1 to txd2 txd1 to rxd2 additionally, connect (if software needs it): rts1 to cts1 & dcd1 rts2 to cts2 & dcd2 dtr1 to dsr1 dtr2 to dsr2 you won't need long wires for these! the null-modem connection is used to establish an xon/xoff-transmission between two pcs (see software section for details). remember: the names dtr, dsr, cts & rts refer to the lines as seen from the pc. this means that for your data set dtr & rts are incoming signals and dsr & cts are outputs! .-.-.-.- end .-.-.- * michael@jester.gun.de * michael gerhards * preussenstrasse 59 * * germany 4040 neuss * voice: 49 2131 82238 * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61121">
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 does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec? how do they compare to necs (quality and emission-wise)? les hartzman hartzman@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov jet propulsion laboratory m/s 238-528 (818) 354-5964 4800 oak grove dr., pasadena, ca. 91109 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61122">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61122" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 hi there, i have a problem here, i've lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard. can someone email me the files, or let me know if plus development (were they bought out by quantum?) has a bbs or phone #? i have a hardcard ii xl50. the quantum bbs number is 408-894-3214. good luck. les hartzman hartzman@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov jet propulsion laboratory m/s 238-528 (818) 354-5964 4800 oak grove dr., pasadena, ca. 91109 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61124">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61124" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 the "attached" fans look slick and work well but i'm bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out. at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing. yes, this is a valid concern imho. with the directly attached fan units i've seen, it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all. in other words, if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage, not just stop working temporarily. a suggestion: slave (hook in series) a small pilot light off the fan circuit. then, if the light goes out, you know your fan is not working. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61125">
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 organization: compact solutions, canberra act australia this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running? my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a intensive job. from what i've seen in coursework, most cpus never actually "idle". they will continue to service interrupts, etc., etc. the clock will always be running at n mhz no matter what it's doing. i suppose depending on the instruction, the cpu may use circuitry which has more transistors than other instructions, but if you consider the additional heat generated by only a handful of additional, tiny resistors and then spread that heat dissipation over the cpu's packaging, the change in temperature to the immediate environment (ie. the surface of the package) will be cheers, ben ben j. elliston bachelor of engineering (computer engineering) \\\// university of canberra (@ @) ___ooo_( )_ooo__ email: compsol@fir.canberra.edu.au v also: ellib@cbr.cpsg.com.au uucp: ..!uunet!munnari!sserve.adfa.oz.au!compsol!root fidonet: 3:620/262 * origin: % compact solutions % canberra act australia % (3:620/262) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61127">
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 on a few computers which we have here at sheridan college there are files which we would like to make read only. i have used the dos attrib command but some people, who carry around the attrib program in their pockets, have still been able to erase some of the more important files. are there any software packages which would make an entire drive read-only? an example, partition the drive into two partitions and have the first drive contain the important files which can be only read and the second drive you could both read and write. any and all enquiries or help would be appreciated. mark.zander@sheridanc.on.ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61131">
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 i'm afriad that's not true. the monitor problem seems to occur whenever the 15" mag monitor is put into 1024x768 mode. i'm running os/2 at 1024 and the same symptoms appear. it does not seem like a video card problem as the cirrus logic 5426 chip and the ati gup seem to cause these problems... two very different cards. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61134">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61134" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running? i totally agree with your friend, since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second (checking for keyboard input for instance). the exception to this is for cpu's used in laptops, where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing. in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again. actually, the iapx86 family has a halt instruction that causes the cpu to cease processing instructions. the cpu resumes processing either by being reset or by receiving an external (hardware) interrupt. this is different from the power management facilities victor mentions. of course, whether an operating system's idle loop uses the halt instruction is another matter kenneth r. ballou voice: (617) 494-0990 oberon software, inc. fax: (617) 494-0414 one memorial drive, cambridge, ma 02142 internet: ballou@oberon.com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61137">
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 [ questions deleted ] i actually have a pas-16, and could (what a waste i guess it would be...) hook up a scsi hd through it's scsi port which yields an optimum of 690kb/sec. actually, i have a borrowed 12ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now (and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas-16 scsi port). is this scsi port a scsi-2 port? how could i tell? is the fujitsu 2623a a scsi-2? are all scsi hd's scsi-2? does any one know what the pas16 scsi port is? i counted the pins on the board displayed in their ad and it only got 40! what happened to the other 50? did they junk a whole bunch of grounds or what? thanks for any comments. guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61141">
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 | if you're considering buying a system, with a view to using | it to run unix (linux, bsd, etc...) or some other special software, | there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards. | this is due to diamond's propriety attitude to it's hardware: | it's impossible to get free information from them about their chips | (specifically their dot-clocks) without paying, and signing non-disclosure | agreements. | this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide | x-windows compatibility with these cards, as diamond didn't want to | divulge programming neccessities. i don't think the two main free x systems ( xs3 and xfree86 ) are part of the fsf as such. considering the above, and some postings about diamond's bad attitute towars customers, i ordered and actixge+ vlb 2m card. it will arive these days. does anyone know of an e-mail address for diamond to which penio could forward his purchase information? penio penev x7423 (212)327-7423 (w) internet: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu disclaimer: all oppinions are mine. guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61142">
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 after reading many postings concerning hard drives i'm still unclear about one thing. these new "cached hard drives" - is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate, like on the controller or something? thanks to anyone who can clear this up. i have two scsi hard drives, each has 512kb of 'cache'. there several reasons for this :- when the drive has read requested data from the disk the scsi bus may be busy. this data needs to be stored some where until the bus is free and the data can be transmitted. when the drive receives data to be written, the data can come down the bus faster than the drive can write it to the disk. it needs to be stored somewhere while the disk is writing it out. in these situations the memory is being used as a buffer not a cache! may be the drive does some read-adead caching as well... (tmc@spartan.ac.brocku.ca) guy dawson - hoskyns group plc. guyd@hoskyns.co.uk tel hoskyns uk - 71 251 2128 guyd@austin.ibm.com tel ibm austin usa - 512 838 3377 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61143">
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 has anyone tried this hp laserjet fax. it receives faxes and prints them on your hp iii. also, from your word processor, you can print straight to the fax. has anyone had any problems? fonts not working? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61144">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61144" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 "these lpt1, com1, disk controller are call devices. there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership, eg. disk controller (i6) and keyboard (i1). there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership, ie. it will share an interrupt with another device, eg. lpt1" no. in a standard isa bus, the one that almost all non-laptop pcs use, two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt. this is due to a screwup in the bus design. for example, if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number 7, then it must hold a certain bus wire to 0 or 1 at all times, depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt. this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7. when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt, it's because they're implemented by a single card. interesting. would you care to explain to me then, how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq 7 successfully? i assure you that they are both set to irq 7 and that i have no problem. my computer is a dtk 286-12 ibm clone. simple. first, andrew is correct, although i can see where there might be some confusion. it is indeed possible to have two cards *configured* to use the same interrupt. they can not *share* the interrupt in the sense that it is not possible to have both cards active at the same time. here is an example. for some time, i was short of "free interrupts." i had a tape controller (not a "floppy tape") that needed one of irq0-irq7. (it's an *old* tape drive.) my solution was to use irq3 (also used for com2, where my modem is). i did this because i reasoned i would never be using the modem and the tape simultaneously. when kermit runs, it installs its own interrupt handler for irq3 and uses the serial port. if the tape drive were to generate an interrupt, kermit would not have a clue what to do with/for the tape controller. (and since the tape controller would not be serviced, it would most likely "hang.") likewise, when the tape backup software runs, it installs an interrupt handler for irq3. that handler won't do anything for the serial port. under dos, printing is not interrupt-driven. instead, the bios polls the status of the parallel port to determine when another byte may be sent. that's why you can have your sound card and lpt1 both configured to use irq7. try that on nt and see how far you'll get. :-) kenneth r. ballou voice: (617) 494-0990 oberon software, inc. fax: (617) 494-0414 one memorial drive, cambridge, ma 02142 internet: ballou@oberon.com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61145">
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 the 800 number for western digital is 1-800-832-4778. | albert dirr | internet address : dirr@tsclion.trenton.edu | | tsc student | bitnet address : dirr@tscvm | | e.s. major | phone : x7649 | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61146">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61146" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have two un-opened, new epson action printers 2250 for sale. list price at compusa is $169, i'm asking $100 + shipping for each. my friend and i got the printers at a promotional event at one of the compusa stores near our area. we didn't need printers, so we're selling it. specs for printer: 9-pin dot matrix printer 240 cps draft, 40 cps nlq 50 sheet paper tray (does single sheets!) prints on letterhead small footprint (can be used either flat or upright!) quiet operation can support an optional tractor feeder comes with full (2-year) manufacturer's warranty if interested reply to: phillyg@acs.bu.edu trades are welcome!!! khoa nguyen 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61148">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61148" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
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 i have a 486/33 ibm clone with two serial ports (com1, com2) and mouse port. both the serial ports are directly sitting on the mother board. i tried to install a 2400 buad hayes internal modem, but it doesnt work. once i dial any number the system locks. i do not hear any click or ring before it the system hangs. the modem has a 2 pin dip switch to select the appropriate port. once i change the settings on the dip switch, the system starts working again. then i bought a 2400 baud hayes external modem and checked the system. it works fine with both the serial ports. the internal modem has been checked on another machine and it works fine, but does not work on my machine. can anyone please help me to find the problem. narm gadiraju ngadiraj@infonode.ingr.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61149">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61149" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up? no. all that i've seen have also an on-board bios which enables you to use up to 2 hard drives directly under dos (2 drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter). software drivers often allow for better performance, though. you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than 2 disks. no. the always in-2000, among others requires no drivers for up to 7 scsi hard drives. dos does not have a 2 drive maximum, as i already have 3. all is done in hardware, there's no software drivers at all. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61150">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61150" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hello. my colleague has a samtron monitor. on the manual cover, it says sc-431 and sc-428 for model numbers. the manual does not specify if it is interlaced or non-interlaced, so does anyone know what it is? mike bitz internet: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu research and development bitzm@dsuvax.dsu.edu dakota state university bitnet: s93020@sdnet.bitnet 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61151">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61151" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 this is normal behavior for these drives (and many other models). the drive is doing a recalibration -- adjusting for temperature changes. if you leave the machine on the frequency of the recalibrations goes way down. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61153">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61153" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i got a et4000/w32 card which is made by cardex yesterday and ran a winmark test on it. the card is a vl-bus card which can display 16.7 million colours in 640x480 mode with 1mb dram. it comes with et4000/w32 window drivers and a normal et4000 drivers. the et4000/w32 drivers handles, 640x480, 800x600, 1024x786 in 256 colours. also, in 640x480 and 800x600, it supports hicolor, 32k and 64k colours. here is my winmark result running on a 16mb 486dx33 eisa/vl-bus system using hint chipsets. winmark 3.11 from zd lab. using et4000/w32 drivers 640x480 256 10.63 megapixel/sec. 32k 7.34 64k 7.30 800x600 256 10.07 32k 6.38 64k 6.35 1kx786 256 8.17 using et4000 drivers. 640x480 16m 1.78 800x600 16colours 4.01 1kx786 16 4.22 from the result, the et4000/w32 drivers are specialized to use the hardware feature of the et4000/w32 chip whereas the et4000 drivers are just normal driver for et4000 based graphics card. the price of this graphics card that i got is $185 from a local dealer. it may be less from mail order. it has os/2 2.0 drivers comes with it which supports 256 colors on all resolution. from these results, it has double the performance of a et4000ax based card in 256 colours mode. philip sinn sinn@carson.u.washington.edu university of washington * it is all my opinions * 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61155">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61155" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i must say that i have been a customer of midwest micro for over 4 years now, and have been well taken care of on each purchase. i have had many friends that have bought that same modem and (they) do have some experience with setting up modems, so there have been no problems in 6 of them that i know of. the fact that your time to valuable for you to spend on the modem is where you went wrong. why you say because i must tell you of the 12 yes i say 12 ppi modems that i have had in the past that i was trying to use on my bbs. they all were junk and were replace 3 times each, to ther point that i just said forget it and i wanted my money back. ppi's teck even said that they didn't even repair them. that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest of the modem. i think it was more your fault than midwest mirco's faulkt...sam gosh..i think i just installed a virus..it was called ms dos6... don't copy that floppy..burn it...i just love windows...crash... what ever happened to the idea that the customer is always right? -- joe p.s. i consider midwaste micro's technique of slapping their own name on a product to be misleading, especially if it was not originally manufactured with that intent in mind. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61159">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61159" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a headland technologies video seven vramii board that only came with 512k, at the time this was ok but... i need info or help with upgrading this board to 1 mbyte. there are 2 rows of pins over the vram chips, i think for a piggyback board of vram. i would like to hear from anyone that may be able to help me upgrade this board. maybe someone from headland who maybe read- ing this has one of these piggyback boards just laying around, please please please! does anyone know of where i could maybe buy the upgrade for this? i would sure love to use this in 800x600-256 color mode but for the time being, i can only get 3/4 of the screen with the bottom part a white strip, obviously because of the missing vram, actually i'm surprised it even works to this degree at all! as a last resort, i will wind up selling this board :^( and probably be getting a 1 mb-et4000 based "dumb frame buffer". this vramii was editors choice in the 9/24/91 pc mag. so if anyone has any info, please email or as a last resort post to this group. thanks in advance. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61161">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61161" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 ahhhuuurrrrgggghhhh!!!!! spinrite says: 80 sectors marked bad in the fat initially, 79 returned to active use, 80 new sectors marked bad, following successive runs of spinrite. i think i need a new esdi hdd controller. i know that these two will work: dtc 6280 adaptec 2322b others that might work: dtc 6282 ultra store 12 wd 1007v if you own one and will sell it cheaply i'll buy it. -greg bishop gt3635a@hydra.gatech.edu gt: "designing tommorow the night before with yesterday's technology." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61164">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61164" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 hartzman@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (les hartzman) writes... does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec? how do they compare to necs (quality and emission-wise)? les hartzman hartzman@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov jet propulsion laboratory m/s 238-528 (818) 354-5964 4800 oak grove dr., pasadena, ca. 91109 i am right now working on an mpr-ii certified (swedish standards for low emissions) hitachi superscan 15 monitor. it's 1024x768, up to 72hz at that res, and it got a good write-up for image quality in a recent (feb.?) issue of pc magazine. as far as i know, very little fully matches a nec in image quality (at least according to the mags -- i can't tell any difference between the two!), but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types. there's vlf (very low frequency) and elf (i think that's extremely low frequency). the mpr-ii standards set strict limits on both. but many comapnies, nec included according to one article i read (i get a bunch of mags so it's hard for me to remember which!), which claim "low emissions" but not specifically "mpr-ii compliant" or "mpr-ii certified" only control for one, usually vlf, and ignore the other. so, the nec probably has higher overall image quality (i consis- tently hear it rated as the best or close to the best), but not as low emissions as the hitachi. i like my image quality, but for all i know you may be more discerning. good luck! v063kcbp@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (oh yeah: i got my hitachi superscan 15 from insight for $499.) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61165">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61165" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just ordered my 4dx2-66v system from gateway. thanks for all the net discussions which helped me decide among all the vendors and options. right now, the 4dx2-66v system includes 16mb of ram. the 8mb upgrade used to cost an additional $340. mike yang silicon graphics, inc. mikey@sgi.com 415/390-1786 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61166">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61166" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am right now working on an mpr-ii certified (swedish standards for low emissions) hitachi superscan 15 monitor. it's 1024x768, up to 72hz at that res, and it got a good write-up for image quality in a recent (feb.?) issue of pc magazine. as far as i know, very little fully matches a nec in image quality (at least according to the mags -- i can't tell any difference between the two!), but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types. there's vlf (very low frequency) and elf (i think that's extremely low frequency). the mpr-ii standards set strict limits on both. but many comapnies, nec included according to one article i read (i get a bunch of mags so it's hard for me to remember which!), which claim "low emissions" but not specifically "mpr-ii compliant" or "mpr-ii certified" only control for one, usually vlf, and ignore the other. nanao's f-series (e.g. f550i) and t-series (e.g. t660i) monitors are mpr-ii compliant. according to my little pamphlet, the t-series monitors are also tco-compliant, whatever that is. mike yang silicon graphics, inc. mikey@sgi.com 415/390-1786 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61167">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61167" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 due to the large amount of request for 3dbench of et4000/w32, i finally can get a 3dbench v1.0 from a ftp site. the 3dbench of et4000/w32 in my cardex w32 card with 1mb dram has superscape benchmark of 26.3 frames/sec. hope it will satisfy people curiosity of this et4000/w32 performance. what other benchmark program result you would want to know? 8-) philip sinn sinn@carson.u.washington.edu university of washington * it is all my opinions * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61169">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61169" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've posted a couple of notes about encountering this problem. based on some suggestions from: mark aitchison, university of canterbury, new zealand. chris a. larrieu @cs.wm.edu i think that my problem is a screen saver that also outputs sound (to my pc speaker). i'm still looking at some of the other screen savers that i use (with a randomizer), but this one definately caused the loss of several minutes over night (but not the date this time). barry sardis | home: (408) 448-1589 1241 laurie avenue | office: (408) 448-7404 san jose, ca 95125 | fax: (408) 448-7404 email: bsardis@netcom.com or 70105.1210@compuserve.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61171">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61171" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 anyone have experiences, good or bad, with replacing the mfm controller and drive with an ide controller and drive in a zenith 386/16? i had heard some rumors about bus mastering problems on some cpu board shamus mc bride | tecslm1@sdc.boeing.com boeing computer services | tecslm1%sdc@atc.boeing.com (206) 865-5047 | uw-beaver!bcsaic!sdc!tecslm1 
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<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61173">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61173" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 105mb ide drive and am having a few problems! i get 'data error on drive c' messages when reading some files. the problem is also steadily getting worse. i have run some diagnostic software (pctools v7.1) and it says that the drive is ok - but it does have to retry some sectors and it briefly flashes up an error message (which is too quick to read). does anybody know of any cheap or free software which could mark these sectors as bad (dos doesn't) or preferably perform a low level format. i have heard that the latter is possible on an ide. technical answers would be appreciated. it would be nice to be able to use the disk again!!! i am running ms-dos 5 on an at clone. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61175">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61175" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i know this is the wrong newsgroup, but i was wondering if anyone knows the date(s) of this year's comdex convention in atlanta,ga. or has it passed already?? e-mail if possible. thanks. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61176">
<answer instance="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware61176" senseid="comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware"/>
<context>
 i originally posted a complaint about how noisy my pc was. i got several useful suggestions, but 1 was the most seductive: run your pc in silence by removing the fan altogether! two variables: 1) i always run my pc without the cover, and 2) i'd be willing to attach a cpu cooler if that would make a difference. should i try to run my pc without a fan? i know it sounds like utter folly so i'm asking - has anyone done this succesfully? or tragically? you're answer may save my pc... thanks. alexander lerman <alerman@netcom.com> (510) 848-4888 (voice) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50419">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50419" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my wife has one of these. i have not had much chance to fiddle with it, but in comparison to our laserwriters with canon engines, she complains that the print is too light for her taste. the difference is quite apparent even when the print setting on the select 310 is adjusted to the darkest possible level. i don't find it objectionable, and indeed rather like it, but be warned that some people don't care for it and it is considerably different. i recall that years ago there were lots of debates over write-black vs. write-white engines when dealing with tex drivers. is something like that going on here? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50421">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50421" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just tried running my bernoulli box off a centris and the driver software only seems to work when the 040 cache is off. if it is on i get the message "this is not a macintosh disk - do you wish to initialize it." i have iomega driver 3.4.2. is there a newer version that works with the 040's? is there something i am doing wrong? clark goble goblec@theory.byu.edu i have version 3.5.1 which i believe was needed for a 040 machine. you should be able to get the newest version by calling their tech support at 1-800-456-5522 or if you have a modem you can get the driver from their bbs at 801-778-4400. dean clark internet dfclark@ca.sandia.gov 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50423">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50423" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hey all, does anyone know if i can ftp to get the newest version of radiusware and soft pivot from radius? i bought a pivot monitor, but it has an old version of this software and won't work on my c650, and radius said it would be 4-5 weeks until delivery. thanks! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50426">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50426" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 we're all set to buy one of these for the office, to use for scanning in color photographs and for optical character recognition. we've played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased. is the color model comparable in quality? also, what brand of ocr software would you recommend? we're leaning toward caere omnipage. any better ideas? thanks. john cavallino | email: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu university of chicago hospitals | john_cavallino@uchfm.bsd.uchicago.edu office of facilities management | usmail: 5841 s. maryland ave, mc 0953 b0 f++ w c+ g++ k+ s++ e h- p | chicago, il 60637 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50428">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50428" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 to my knowledge there is no way to fully discharge a duo battery. the program powerstrip2.0, which is freeware, has an option called "quick discharge." you can find it on the mac archives, probably sumex-aim.stanford.edu or mac.archive.umich.edu. good luck! kenneth simon department of sociology kssimon@indiana.edu indiana university is it a hidden option? i'm using powerstrip 2.0 (by mr. caputo) right now and can't find any quick discharge option. it definitely is on mac.archive.umich.edu 'cause i submitted it! ron wong the santa cruz operation 408-427-7128 net & comm segment mgr/ 400 encinal street, po box 1900 fax: 425-3544 devprogram marketing mgr santa cruz, ca 95061-1900 e-mail: ...uunet!sco!ronaldw ronaldw@sco.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50431">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50431" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 for sale apple macintosh se/30 8mb ram, 80mb hd system 7.1 installed rasterops 264/30 24-bit video card for se/30 apple 13" monitor targus carrying case i'm after offers in the region of 1250 pounds. i'm in the north london area. contact mark allerton e-mail: pascal@cix.compulink.co.uk mark@bilpin.co.uk phone: 081 341 6400 (evenings/weekends) 071 267 2561 (office hours) | mark allerton | | srl data | | mark@bilpin.co.uk | | pascal@cix.compulink.co.uk | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50432">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50432" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a couple of questions for the multimedia set: 1. does anybody have a phone or fax number, or e-mail address, or name of a principal in cedar technologies in dublin, new hampshire? all i have is a post-office box number, and i want to ask a couple of questions before them some money. any info much appreciated. 2. i'm running an se/30, which came with no microphone. is there any way, other than using macrecorder with soundedit or cedar's digitizer with some similar software, to input recorded sound into my mac? i'm trying to play very short interview clips in a hypercard stack. thanks for any and all help. kathy mctaggart 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50434">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50434" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 could someone post a *definitive* answer about the vram configuration for the q800 (and presumably the c610 and c650 as well). there seems to be a lot of confusion about this issue. i'd like to know: . what kind of simms are the vram simms (i.e. 30-pin, etc.)? there's only one physical size for vram simms (unlike dram simms which come in many, many sizes and pinouts), although they do come with differing amounts of vram on them. the ones you need are 256kb simms, are organized as 128k x 16, and have two 128k x 8 vram chips on them. this is the only size which the quadra and centris machines can use. . how many vram simm slots are there? . what rules (if any) must be followed in filling the slots (e.g in pairs, sizes must match, etc.)? both simm slots must be filled; putting a simm in only one slot does nothing for you. . how fast must they be? 80 ns for the q800 and c650, 100 ns for the c610. . is there any other relevant information? there are certain vram chip manufacturers whose parts are not compatible with the quadra and centris video hardware. make sure that the source you get them from guarantees compatiblity. in general, if it works in a q950, it will work in a q800. please don't reply unless you have the *correct* information. many thanks in advance for helping to eliminate some noise from this group. trust me. ;-) - dale adams apple computer, inc. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50436">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50436" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does nutek (or anyone at nutek) have an email address? if not, why not? =) good things: books by robert heinlein, music by enya, computers by apple, humor by dave barry, thursday nights on nbc, and scotland. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- scot salmon (scot@jlc.mv.com) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50437">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50437" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 [part of posting removed] * the sony cpd-1304 has better video circuitry than either of the other two monitors. it can display apple 640x480, vga 640x480, vga 800x600 (though this has 56 hz flicker), and apple 832x624 (75 hz refresh: no flicker at all). it might be able to display apple's 1024x768, but i'm not sure about this, and the pixels would be real small anyway so it might not be that useful. note that with either sony monitor, you will need the proper adapter, which both connects the video signals properly, but also informs the macintosh video hardware of which display mode to use. [part of posting removed] fred martin | fredm@media.mit.edu | (617) 253-7143 | 20 ames st. rm. e15-301 epistemology and learning group, mit media lab | cambridge, ma 02139 usa i'm assuming that the cabling tells the mac, at startup, what kind of monitor is connected. now i think i've seen ads in popular mac magazines for products (i'm not sure if it's just a monitor, just a video card, or a package of both) that allow you to change resolutions on the fly (w/o restarting the mac). if you were to buy a 1304, would it be possible to switch back and forth between apple 640x480 and apple 832x624 without restarting the mac? is this strictly a hardware startup function, or can software intervene, or does the mac hardware occasionally probe the cable setting and switch automatically? (ivancich@eecs.umich.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50439">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50439" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 as i said "i know a multisession cd-rom is necessary if you do more photos..." but what if it is just a writable cd-rom drive and do a second "session" do you need one for that too? if you write a second time to a cd you need to have multi-session capability to read the second session. whether it is photos or just data or whatever. here is a simplified way of looking at it: the first session has the directory structure burned at some tracks. the second session has a newer directory structure, but the first directory still exists, because you cannot change, only add. so if you put that in a 'normal' drive and it will only look to the first directory and think it has found all data. multisession kindof means that the drive will look for the last directory written to the disc, older systems look only for 'the' directory, not taking multiple directories into account. lex van sonderen philips interactive media 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50440">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50440" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 approximately four months ago, i purchased a quantum 240lps hd from la cie for $649. after two months, the drive started having problems. first, there were intermittent freezes, then corrupted files and resources, then silverlining 5.41 wouldn't even recognize the drive. so i got an rma from la cie and exchanged the new drive for a reconditioned one. well, about a month has passed now and the second drive is having problems. often, when i boot up my iisi i get the flashing question mark. sometimes, if i then insert the silverlining (5.42) program i can get it to recognize the drive by making it scan over and over for drives. at that point i can restart the iisi and boot from the hd. i've called la cie again and they've given me another rma. their tech support people tell me that if silverlining doesn't see the drive there's a definite hardware problem. given that this is the second bad drive in four months, i asked la cie to send me a *new* one, but they said "no." also, within three weeks after i purchased my original drive, la cie dropped the price on it by over $100. i can accept that a drive (or two) may be bad. and i know that hardware vendors make a practice of sending reconditioned replacements when they do repairs. and i understand that the nature of the computer industry lends itself to sudden price fluctuations. nevertheless, taken together, the convergence of these facts/events have left a bad taste in my mouth. (i should have added above that when i asked la cie to transfer the contents of my current drive to the one they will send_i think the data is still in good shape and i'll have to again reinstall everything from floppies_they said it would cost me $250 for data recovery.) it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price, and that replacements for new hardware gone bad (still covered under a 90-day warranty) should be new. i feel a little helpless about all this. i don't mean to necessarily flame la cie_their support staff have always been friendly and sometimes even helpful. but c'mon. sometimes a little extra customer service goes a long way. (i sent a letter to la cie's customer service when the first drive was returned and i asked them for a credit on the price difference since i had purchased the drive three weeks before they slashed the price. i told them i would like to apply the credit toward the purchase of another la cie product. they didn't even have the courtesy to reply one way or the other.) what's the moral of this story? i'm not sure. but i do know i won't buy any other products from la cie in the future. bill krauthammer f2ehg786@umiami.ir.miami.edu ps please don't email or post about how good your la cie product and service has been. i'm not suggesting that they are not a good company or anything like that. all i'm saying is that i've had a disappointing experience with them and i'll be taking my business elsewhere in the future. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50444">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50444" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi folks, what exactly is the maximum memory i can put in a quadra 700. my manual says 20mb (with 4 x 4mb simms), but macwarehouse and the like advertise 16mb simms to give it a total of 68mb. who's wrong? has anybody got chris reid <cr@cs.strath.ac.uk> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50448">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50448" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 please excuse and redirect me if this has already been answered, but is there a small utility that switches the functionality of the caps-lock key and the ctrl key on the powerbook keyboard? i use the ctrl key far more than caps-lock, so it would be more convenient and comfortable. thank you for any help, scott farrar 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50449">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50449" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a friend who has a mac (lc or lc ii i think), and her family has an "extra" laserjet iiip sitting around. is there any way to connect these two and make them work without a postscript cartridge? she told me that a random friend of hers had mentioned something about some software package that could do the translation... | rick osterberg osterber@husc.harvard.edu 617-493-7784 617-493-3892 | | 2032 harvard yard mail center cambridge, ma 02138-7510 usa | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50451">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50451" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 could someone please tell me what a laserwriter iintx upgrade kit is. its a small box, which has a bag inn it , seemingly containing 6 chips (look like roms) and a iintx manual. the installation instructions are most informative and say, in full, "this product must be installed by an apple ........." so what does this do ? at first i thought it might be a nt to ntx upgrade, but i thought that required an entirely new board. any info appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50452">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50452" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 gene's stuff for sale...new prices!!! the following items are for sale: qty. description list price 1 supermac colorlink sx/t 24 bit nubus/10base-t 750.00 _549.00_ this card is primo! selling for $675 mailorder it suports monitors up to 19 in. with 28" x 28" virtual desktop. accelerated, hardware pan, etc! this quick sale price includes free 2nd day air! 1 seagate st1480 430 meg 3.5 in hd 2 mo. old 989.00 675.00 note: all hardware is in normal working order. prices do not include shipping. all items shipped cod (usa) or pre-paid (anywhere) sold: 1 iisi nubus adapter card with fpu 189.00 _115.00_ for any items please contact: gene naftulyev chairman@staff.tc.umn.edu or call (612) 942-0134 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50455">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50455" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 title says it all. i'd be particularly interested in the performance difference. just how much faster (50%?) is the centris 610 over the lciii? --tom uucp: humu!nctams1!pnet16!tomj arpa: humu!nctams1!pnet16!tomj@nosc.mil inet: tomj@pnet16.cts.com when apple came with their demos to iowa state, i got a chance to run speedometer3.1 on some of the new macs. both machines were running system7.1, had a 14" rgb. don't know what the caches were set to. neither machine had an fpu it appears that the centris610 is quite a bit faster than the lc iii: centris610 lciii cpu 13.01 6.92 graf 15.67 7.69 disk 2.22 2.44 math 25.57 10.19 p.r. rating 12.91 6.58 so, there is a comparison. there is definitely a very noticable speed difference between these two machines according to speedometer3.1. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50458">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50458" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 help!!! i have an adb graphicsd tablet which i want to connect to my quadra 950. unfortunately, the 950 has only one adb port and it seems i would have to give up my mouse. please, can someone help me? i want to use the tablet as well as the mouse (and the keyboard of course!!!). thanks in advance. tai hou tng 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50460">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50460" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 you will need driver ver 3.5.2 to work with quadra/centris. you can download it from iomega bbs: 1-801-778-4400 dominic cheng (d2cheng@descartes.uwaterloo.ca) computer science, university of waterloo, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50464">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50464" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 in a previous article, jcav@ellis.uchicago.edu (johnc) says: this model is one of the two low-cost laser printers that apple just introduced. i'm thinking of getting one to use at home. have any of you had any experience with this printer? does it have level-2 postscript? if you've bought one, are you happy with it? john cavallino | email: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu university of chicago hospitals | john_cavallino@uchfm.bsd.uchicago.edu office of facilities management | usmail: 5841 s. maryland ave, mc 0953 b0 f++ w c+ g++ k+ s++ e h- p | chicago, il 60637 frankly, i think this model is a screwup. it does not have postscriptlevel 2, only has 13 fonts, and does not even have fine print or photograde, or grayshare. even the 300 model has this! i am shocked by the kind of features you get for this printer. i myself was hoping for some decent printer to replace the personal laser writers. a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography, ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur, malaysia. "the mind is the forerunner of all states." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50465">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50465" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware any info on the video processor am29000 that sit on it, any way to program that chip? what companie makes that chip? apple was never able to provide any docs or tools to program that chip. i value it as the least value per $ piece of computer hardware i ever bought due to the lack support tools. there was a refund for us-buyers of this card but we were left out in the rain once again... i agree completely, but there was only a refund for people who bought the gc with a quadra. i have seen an alpha version of an extension from apple called 8.24 gc quicktime video which offloads quicktime compression/decompression from the cpu to the am29000 on the card. so it seems it can be done even though in a developer article it states that the gc can't be programmed - but they asked that any suggestions be sent in anyway... steve margelis melbourne university 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50466">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50466" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 : deathbird+@cmu.edu (donpaul c. stephens) : kind of slated wouldn't you say?) who is going to throw all that to : side and get the mac os for 486??? not quite the point to be considdered here! fact: if/when apple release system 7 (or what ever is current at the time of release) then you will see shortly afterwards apple no longer producing hardware...look at next with their nextstep486 to see what happens. who is going to pay apples prices when they can get the same thing cheaper else where! (heck we can get a sun workstation cheaper than a quadra, and infact we have a number of times!!!, it all comes down to $$$$) : if apple released this before windows 3.0 was released i'd be behind : they missed the boat. so why is apple continued development. will it : support the p5 to its fullest capabilities? run faster than windows? : must do something significantly better than windows and os2 to warrent : being released. no the continued develeopment is because there is becomming less and less profit in hardware, so the next step (no pun intended...well sort of), is to make the money in software (look at microsoft if you think it can't happen!), after all you can sell multiple pieces of software to one hardware platform. as you also said windows is a nightmare for programmers, so will the temptation to sell system 7 to a couple of million dos users be too much for apple! (50 million copies @ $100 is serious money!). : sir@office.acme.gen.nz : : be thankfull that we dont get all the government we pay for! : 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50467">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50467" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my macplus is having problems which seem temperature related. after using it for a while it freezes. the when i turn off then on, the screen doesn't show the disk icon, and then goes dark. i consulted larry pina's book and could not find these symptoms. has anybody else seen such symptoms? shure it is temperature dependent, but this does not clean all your based on some exp. i must say that the connections between the power supply and the monitor and main board are usable to this failure, ram simms can be badly connected due to some corrosion and the powersupply can be in the phase (lower voltage). so you can do following if you are used to such technical terms. 1) clean all mentioned contacts with contact spray 2) readjust the 5 volt level of your powersupply 3) use a calm fan and think of preventing dust blowinÔ through the floppy! (a fixed piece of paper can prevent this) if you don't know how to do it beg a friendly technician! christian bauer bauer@informatik.uni-ulm.de 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50469">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50469" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my advisor has decided to get a mac for the lab now that we are funded again. the consensus in the lab was that all we really needed was an lciii, but he decided he wanted a centris 610. the lack of an fpu on that machine, and the price, struck me as making it worth less than an lciii, so i have suggested we get a iivx instead. it seems heavily expandable, and for what do people with iivx's think of them? they seem like good machines to me, and i like the nubus slots in case we ultimately decide we want to do work with video on it.... the iivx...lciii performance at a centris 610 price. the only reason to get an iivx is if you really need the full-size nubus slots. keep in mind that the 610 supports all apple monitors and has optional ethernet. this lessens (but doesn't eliminate) the need for nubus cards. and unless you're running fpu-intensive software, the 610 will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx. the lciii, on the other hand, is sufficient for most people and has a great price. if you haven't guessed, i find halving the bus clock (the iivx 32mhz up vs. 16mhz bus) a throughly bad thing and i hope apple never does it again. |joe finete | |jfinete@cats.ucsc.edu | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50471">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50471" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone know who makes a cable or adapter that is wired according to apple's specs that forces the external output on lc's and the powerbook's 160/180 and duo 230 into a true vga style output signal? the nec adapter does not do this since their monitors are multisync they just route the signal into the correct pinout but do not switch the macs output into vga mode. do i have to make one of these or does someone already have one made-up?? the following is the apple spec for the lc cpu vga cable adapter. i'm assuming that the powerbooks/duos will work with the same adapter(?); macintosh lc to vga the macintosh lc can supply a 640 x 480, vga timed signal for use with vga monitors by using an adapter cable. the standard macintosh lc supports vga to 16 colors, and with the optional 512k vram simm, the vga monitor is supported to 256 colors. note: the macintosh lc supplies signals capable of driving ttl level inputs. however, some low impedance input vga monitors do not work with the macintosh lc. to connect a macintosh lc to a vga monitor, you need to make an adapter cable from the macintosh lc video connector to the vga monitor. following is the pinout description for the adapter cable: macintosh lc vga video connector pin signal name 1 6 red ground 2 1 red video signal 5 2 green video signal 6 7 green ground 9 3 blue video signal 13 8 blue ground 15 13 /hsync 12 14 /vsync 14 10 hsync ground 7,10 nc sense1 & sense2 tied together vga monitors are identified by shorting pin 7 to pin 10 on the macintosh lc video connector. the macintosh lc grounds pin 7 on its video connector, which results in pulling down pin 10 and gives the correct monitor id for a vga this message was created on mcw bbs a jointly supported by new orleans mac user group & national home & school user group user@maccomw.uucp the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50472">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50472" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have got a dot matrix printer that came with a lisa (i think) i wish to attach it to a pc, but have no manual. i have been told that it is some sort of c.itoh printer in disguise. can anyone help with manuals or info about codes to send to select fonts, italics etc. i want to write a printer driver for protext. thanks in advance stuart munn dod# 0717 heriot-watt university "the sky is black . . . edinburgh therefore god, he is a st mirren scotland, eh14 4as supporter!!!" 031 451-3265 031 451-3261 fax god may have a harley . . . e-mail censwm@uk.ac.hw.clust (janet) but the pope rides a guzzi! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50473">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50473" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 the info i am about to give is not a rumour, it's the truth. the new macintosh coming in the second quarter, will have a cpu of their own. excuse me but... have not all macs got a cpu!!! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50475">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50475" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've noticed some of you mentioning owning a quadra 800 8/230 with cd300 and 1meg of vram. it seems that this configuration was purchased complete; that is, the cd300 and vram were already installed in the box. i am interested in that exact configuration and will be buying with an educational discount but have not found the cd300 bundled with any q800 smaller than the 8/500. if you bought or know how to buy the 8/230 with cd installed, please let me know what you know via email: send messages to dmaluso@mhc.mtholyoke.edu thanks, all. diane maluso = diane maluso internet: dmaluso@mhc.mtholyoke.edu = = department of psychology and education = = mount holyoke college = = south hadley, ma 01075 = = (413) 538-2107 = 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50478">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50478" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard, but it seems that the 'b' is placed on the left part after the split. however, when i learned typing in school some years ago, i was taught to write 'b' with my right hand. is this a difference between danish and american typing, or what??? thanks a lot in advance! thomas widmann -lernu esperanton- viralbus@daimi.aau.dk solidvm petit in lingvis 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50480">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50480" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the iivx...lciii performance at a centris 610 price. and unless you're running fpu-intensive software, the 610 will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx. from the benchmarks i've seen (was that in macuser or macweek?) the fpu-less centris 610 is _faster_ at floating-point operations (the kind of calculations that get routed to an fpu) than a mac iifx! and a mac iifx (68030 @ 40mhz + fpu) is _the_ fastest 030-based mac. take note, of course, that benchmarks never tell the whole story... get your favorite program(s) and run them on both machines at the store. they should let you do that before you plunk down a hefty amount... philippe casgrain etudiant-chercheur casgrain@ere.umontreal.ca departement des sciences biologiques universite de montreal #define disclaimer(caught) (caught ? "i wasn't even there!" : "i didn't do it!") 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50482">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50482" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 greetings!! i'm planning to upgrade my mac iisi: (1) from the present 5megs to 17megs; and (2) add a math-coprocessor. technology works, of austin (texas) comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines. i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works (both good and bad experiences); or give any advice about other mail-order companies that i may consider. your reply would be very much appreciated. thanks in advance. peter choo choo@sigma.ecs.umass.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50483">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50483" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have used both my serial ports with a modem and a serial printer, so i cannot use appletalk. is there a ethernet to localtalk hardware that will let me use the ethernet port on my q700 as a localtalk port. until they come out with satellite dishes that sit on your window & give you internet access from your home, i won't at all be using that port. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50484">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50484" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 another thing, why a scsi interface ? because scsi works well with removable media, and works well with large capacity devices. the floppy interface you suggest handles the former, but it doesn't have any hooks for dealing with the latter... you'd have to kludge it. plus, it's extremely low performance. and, scsi has gobs of room for expansion compared with a floppy (i can just see it, let's stick a 5.25", a 3.5", a tape drive, and a mo drive, all on the floppy interface. the possibilities for unexpected collisions are enormous). peter da silva `-_-' network management technologies incorporated 'u` 12808 west airport blvd. sugar land, tx 77478 usa +1 713 274 5180 "zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50485">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50485" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 well, i just got my centris 610 yesterday. it took just over two weeks from placing the order. the dealer (rutgers computer store) appologized because apple made a substitution on my order. i ordered the one without ethernet, but they substituted one _with_ ethernet. he wanted to know if that would be "alright with me"!!! they must be backlogged on centri w/out ethernet so they're just shipping them with! anyway, i'm very happy with the 610 with a few exceptions. being nosy, i decided to open it up _before_ powering it on for the first time. the scsi cable to the hard drive was only partially connected (must have come loose in shipping). no big deal, but i would have been pissed if i tried to boot it and it wouldn't come up! the hard drive also has an annoying high pitched whine. i've heard apple will exchange it if you complain, so i might try to get it swapped. i am also dissappionted by the lack of soft power-on/off. this wasn't mentioned in any of the literature i saw. also, the location of the reset/interupt buttons is awful. having keyboard control for these functions was much more convenient. oh, and the screen seems tojump in a wierd way on power-up. i've seen this mentioned by others, so it must be a...feature... anyway, above all, it's fast. a great machine at a great price! gnelson@physics.rutgers.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50486">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50486" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo-mouse (adb mouse ii)? mine lives near a cat (true, really...) and picks up her fur. from what i can tell, it looks like apple welded it shut. you must not have tried very hard. i just opend mine in about 2 seconds. take a look on the bottom, it has a dial that turns to open much like the older adb mouses used to have. it's a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open. also, does anyone know about installing fpus in a mac lc iii? i've heard some people saying it has fried the motherboard of the lc iii. well, if you don't match up the pins correctly you will have some problems. a close look at the socket should give you an idea of the proper orientation of the chip. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50487">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50487" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i saw once an article about a new line of macs configured to work more optimally as file servers. anyone know any more details? check out the may issue of macworld; the new servers are on the cover. should be at your favorite newstand. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50488">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50488" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone have information on acheiving 1024 x 768 resolution on a q800 using interanl video? is this even possible? it's most certainly possible. is it possible to use this resolution on the apple 16" monitor? if so, i could probably rig a connector with the proper pins. nope. the apple 16" monitor does not support multiple resolutions. it is not a multi-synching monitor. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50489">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50489" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 this is an aside to brian hughes's (please, let's lose the cute phony names everybody) posting about adding memory to a quadra 800. what phony names? my name is clearly visible in the headers, and i sing the post with my account name. if you have a problem with that, then you will have to get over it. i've used this account name for over 10 years and the people who have been reading newsgroups for the last 7 generally recognize "hades" as my account name. i have no intention of changing the way i post. i installed a couple of 16mb simms in my quadra and was somewhat dismayed by the general complexity of the operation compared to, for example, the wonderfully designed lc iii. it irritates me when apple refuses to tell how to do it in the user's manual so you have to guess at how to disassemble the devise in question (it's the same for adding memory to laserwriter pro's). it isn't apple's responsibility to tell its customers how to fool around with it's hardware. that is what apple service techs get paid to do. i personally like the design of the q800, and applaud apple for coming up with a good way to make use of the front space for all of those drive bays. i like it a lot better than the 900/950 design, except for those people who need drive arrays. i do, however, agree with you about the lw pro design. the operation isn't very complicated if even a minimal amount of help were offered but apple leaves you working blind. again, its's not apple's place to make it easy for non-certified service people to fool around with apple hardware, even if they did buy it. of course you are free to do what you want to your mac, just don't get upset when your apple service rep tells you that your warranty is no longer valid. after the memory was installed i was distraught that the top of the simms came into contact with the plastic case frame. mine actually contacted the framework with quite a lot of pressure -- enough so that the assembly of the board back to the proper position was rather difficult and required some force. i could have filed a little excess material off the top of the simm boards but chose to let it stand as is. i have not had problems with ram yet so i will consider the problem annoying but not catastrophic. this sounds like the kind of problem i had when i installed 4mb simms into an lc, back before low-profile 4mb simms were readily available. the standard 4mb simms would contact the top of the case and make it a bit difficult to close the lc, but it did close and work just fine. one of the nice things about logic-boards is that they are generally quite flexible and can withstand a fair amount of pressure. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50491">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50491" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the info i am about to give is not a rumour, it's the truth. the new macintosh coming in the second quarter, will have a cpu of their own. ]excuse me but... have not all macs got a cpu!!! ]alain alain: get your facts straight before you post something like this. the duo dock does not have a cpu of its own. it is a docking station with ports connecting various components, including the portable powerbook with its own cpu. i guess these rumored new duo docks have a built-in cpu to perform functions of their own. interesting! if they're not compatible with the current duo models, i think you'll be hearing a lot more "screwed by apple" complaints. imagine a company obsoleting (ooh, a new verb!) a virtually brand new computer... sheesh... kenneth simon dept of sociology, indiana university internet: kssimon@indiana.edu bitnet: kssimon@iubacs 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50492">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50492" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard, but it seems that the 'b' is placed on the left part after the split. however, when i learned typing in school some years ago, i was taught to write 'b' with my right hand. is this a difference between danish and american typing, or what??? it must be... ...i type it with my left hand. personally, i would have a real problem with my keyboard opened up like that, because i tend to share some keys with both hands, particularly if i'm doing something else with one hand (like using the cursor keys, mouse, or glass of jolt). "deej" (jacob rose) :: amazing but true: there is so much sand in northern jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu:: africa that if spread out it would cover the sahara. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50495">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50495" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 whether the drive is hooked up to the computer or not, the lps240 makes a "disk seek noise" every 20 seconds. this is consistent and will continue as lomg as the drive is powered up. even if i disconnect the drive from the computer, this "drive activity" continues at 20 second intervals. someone tried to tell me the drive was doing a "thermal recalibration". not knowing beans about the internal physical workings of the lastest disk drive technology.... i guess i might believe anything. whats the scoop on this standalone "drive activity" every 20 sec? i can only comment on thermal recalibration in general. some new drives perform it in order to increase overall integrity of data writes. basically, the firmware instructs the actuator to perform a test to see if the data tracks are within a certain physical tolerance, since when the media heats up or cools down, *some* track drift is inevitable, and the drive has to monitor it. this becomes especially critical at very high recording densities, and so was used primarily on very large-capacity mechanisms, but it seems to be finding its way into more smaller drives as a way of boosting the drive's long-term reliability and mtbf ratings. i first became aware of thermal recalibration when it was pointed out that the technique conflicts with prolonged write times when digitizing, say, audio or video to hard disk. some manufacturers explicitly state that drives with thermal recalibration are not to be used for applications that have prolonged disk writes. hope this helps. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50500">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50500" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 could someone please post any info on these systems. robert novitskey | "pursuing women is similar to banging one's head rrn@po.cwru.edu | against a wall...with less opportunity for reward" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50504">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50504" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm having a real tough time finding out the proper adapters to use a vga monitor (an ibm 8513 sold w/ many ps/2's to be exact) on the mac lc iii. all of the vendors i have called say that the internal video will not work on a true vga monitor but will work on a ibm compatible multisync like the sony's or the nec monitors. i thought the vga capability of lciii was very attractive because it allowed you to use inexpensive vga monitors. am i confused or are these vendors just not up to speed? has anyone used an lciii with a non multisync vga monitor and if so where did you get your adapter (please be specific w/ vendor and cat #)? i would prefer to get a apple monitor for these lciii's (it's unseemly to see the finder inside an ibm bezel) but the more money we save on monitors the more lciii's we can afford and the more ps/2's we can get rid of! charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group qman@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50506">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50506" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 greetings!! i planning to upgrade my mac iisi: (1) from the present 5megs to 17megs; and (2) add a math-coprocessor. technology works, of austin (texas) comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines. i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works (both good and bad experiences); or give any advice about other mail-order companies that i may consider. your reply would be very much appreciated. thanks in advance. peter choo choo@sigma.ecs.umass.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50507">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50507" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo when i first got it, the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected, and i had to pull it the rest of the way. nowadays (and i've had the system for 4 months), the duo doesn't come out *at* *all* - despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises, and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself. is there a simple fix for this, or do i have to return it to my apple dealer, where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display, no vram, no floppy or scsi etc. (btw, it's not that the duo is locked into the dock - it just doesn't want to slide out any more). phil jimmieson, *********************************************** computer science dept., * janet : phil@uk.ac.liv.csc * liverpool university, * internet : phil@csc.liv.ac.uk * po box 147 *********************************************** liverpool l69 3bx "i was head over heels in love until i got cramp" (uk) 051-794-3689 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50512">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50512" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price, and that replacements for new hardware gone bad (still covered under a 90-day warranty) should be new. well, sounds like we need some kind of a lemon law on the hardware industry. after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that has paid the price of a new drive for a reconditioned one. what do you guys think? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50513">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50513" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is it me, my 650, or all 650s? it doesn't seem to broken. it isn't making grinding noises or anything, it's just loud! much louder that the fan in the iici i just sold. anybody else have this problem? how about a solution? is there a good replacement fan that's a lot quieter but moves the same air? any easy way to insulate the sound but not the cooling air? (hah!) i can't even hear the fan on my 650.....gee i wonder if its working.....yup, just checked, its exhausting air out the back just fine. gary snow uunet!clark!gsnow or gsnow@clark.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50518">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50518" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need to get an apple 40sc tape backup unit working under sys 7.0.x, but do not have any drivers/software to access the device. does anyone know where i can fidn the tools to access this device? appreciate any info/comments. --curtis curtis c. generous generous@sti.nasa.gov (703) 685-1140 nasa sti, code jtt, washington, dc 20546 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50520">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50520" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hey everybody: i want to buy a mac and i want to get a good price...who doesn't? so, could anyone out there who has found a really good deal on a centris 650 send me the price. i don't want to know where, unless it is mail order or areound cleveland, ohio. also, should i buy now or wait for the power pc. reply via post or e-mail at rrn@po.cwru.edu robert novitskey | "pursuing women is similar to banging one's head rrn@po.cwru.edu | against a wall...with less opportunity for reward" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50522">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50522" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 greetings, oh, wise netters.. (oops.. that's the oracle..sorry..) anyhow, i have a basic question that i cannot answer.. just *where* in the heck can i buy a adb cable?? mine on my trackball is shot.. and i haven't been able to find a replacement anywhere.. unless i'm looking in the wrong mail order catalogs.... anyone have any ideas? (places/prices/just make it myself?) mlbelan@afterlife.ncsc.mil you should be able to pick up an adb cable at any computer wiring store... i'd give you the address of alberta computer cable in calgary, but a: i'm in victoria (b.c., canada) and b: i don't think an address in calgary would help you too much....basically however i just phoned them up, and they charged me approx. $15 cnd for a custom made adb extension cable for my mouse. hope this helps... dave maclachlan dmaclach@ra.uvic.ca nightfall software inc. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50523">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50523" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 what is the difference? i want a double-spin cd-rom drive by may looking into nec and apple, doublespins only what is the best? nec toshiba and sony (apple) nearly deliver the same speed. as apples prices are very low (compared to there ram simms) you should buy what is inexpencive. but think of driver revisions. it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other christian bauer bauer@informatik.uni-ulm.de i thought nec and toshiba cd-rom mechanism have an average access time of less than 200 ms. while the sony-apple cd-rom drive has an access time of 300 ms for the doublespin models. - chung yang i have the a cd-technology drive with the toshiba mechanism, and it is supposedly the fast and best now. it has an access of 200ms and a data transfer rate 300kb/sec. it is multisession photo-cd compatible. it is available from educorp for $599, the cd-technology one, and comes with two mail in coupons for two free cds. i'm not sure if the cd's are good, since i've only had the drive a little less than a month and had the cd's shipped to my home address in california instead of here in maryland. the cd-technology drive has a separate power supply separated from the drive, which supposedly gives it a longer life, and keeps it cleaner with no fan to attract dust. a toshiba brand drive is also available, but i think the cd-technology is better, since you get the same mechanism, and at a slightly lower price with two free cds. the apple 300/330i drive, sony mechanism, is around a 300ms access time i think, and a data transfer rate of 300kb/sec. i know it is the slowest of the three mentioned here. it is not widely available, except through the apple catalog, which is bad at a price of only $599. it is also multi-session photo cd compatible. i think the external model comes with 7 free cds, some of which are pretty good. the nec drive has been out the longest. it has an access time of 280ms and a data transfer rate of 300kb/sec. it is available from many vendors around $600 dollars, including educorp. it wasn't multi-sesssion photo-cd compatible before, but i hear that the current version that is shipping is. owners of the older drives can get an upgrade. it does not come with any free cd's unless you buy it in a bundle. of the three cd-rom drives above, i think the best choices would be the apple drive and the cd-technology(toshiba) drive. the apple drive for it's compatibility with apple products and the cd-technology(toshiba) for it's speed and performance. btw, the models of the drives are: apple: applecd 300 or applecd 300i (internal) cd-technology: cd-t3401 (the toshiba brand name model i'm not sure, but it is also something like with 3401) nec: cdr-74 i'm very happy with my drive. and have had no compatibility problems whatsoever. if i am wrong about any of the above, do correct me, but i am pretty sure of myself, even when i think i'm not. also, some of you out there might notice that i have the same last name as the president of cd-technology which happens to be in southern california, my hometown. however, i am not a relative nor do i know the guy. liu is just a common chinese name, especially in southern california, with the enormous chinese community. besides, one of my doctors in california has three steve liu's as patients and another steve liu comes to my school and lives in the next dorm. this is to show that liu is very common. steve :-) steve liu |i wish for a better .sig drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu |suggestions are very welcome! drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50526">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50526" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i want to achieve an overall throughput rate of around 5 megabytes / sec for very large data transfers. (around 5 mb.) i have a quadra 950. i have a nubus network card that can pump data in to mac memory at 8.5 mb/s. (using block-mode transfers) i have a high-speed disk array (no asynchronous pb calls) that can achieve 6.8 mb/s. let's say all transfers go from disk to buffer to network card. it is not enough to first transfer all the data from the disk to buffer, then transfer all the data from the buffer to card. (6.8 mb/s then 8.5 mb/s result in an overall 3.8 mb/s. too slow!) so i tried the following scheme: for an n-megabyte transfer, step 1: load the 1st mb from disk to buffer. step 2: asynch send 1st mb out card, load the 2nd mb from disk to buffer. step 3: asynch send 2nd mb out card, load the 3rd mb from disk to buffer. step n: asynch send the n-1 mb out card, load the nth mb from disk to buffer. step n+1: send the nth mb out card. even though the code apparently does execute the card transfer asynchronously, and the card does not use the mac cpu at all, (it is using the buffer, tho') each of the steps 2 through n take as long as if the two transfers were executed one after another. so there is no improvement in the rate. is the mac ram dual-port? (so the nubus card and the disk driver can both access data at the same time.) is the problem that the two devices, card and disk driver, both have to use the same bus to mac ram? is there anything i can do? --david | david blume | "i get tired thinking of all the things i | | dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com | don't want to do." --bukowski, _barfly_ | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50527">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50527" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 well folks, after some thought the answer struck me flat in the face: "why would apple release a duo dock with a processor of its own?" here's why- people have hounded apple for a notebook with a 68040 processor in it. apple can't deliver that right now because the 040 saps too much power, radiates far too much heat, and is too large for a notebook. how does one get around that without designing a new chipset? use existing powerbook technology to your best advantage. the duo dock gives apple a unique ability to give users that 040 power in a "semi-portable" fashion. by plunking the 040 into the dock, you've got "quadra" power at your desk. on the road, that 33mhz 68030 should be able to handle most of your needs. okay, not the best solution, but its an answer to a no-win situation. :-) so, does this mean one will be able to use the powerbook's processor in parallel to the dock's processor? okay, we're getting really hypothetical now... travis grundke | macgames digest- your #1 source for information, contributing editor, | news & reviews of gaming software and the gaming macgames digest | industry in the macintosh community. reply an780@cleveland.freenet.edu | for more information on macgames digest. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50529">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50529" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone have information on acheiving 1024 x 768 resolution on a q800 using interanl video? is this even possible? i suspect that it isn't although i'd certainly like to know for sure. of course its possible, i get 1024x768 on my centris 650. all you need is a correctly wired video cable. gary snow uunet!clark!gsnow or gsnow@clark.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50530">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50530" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo-mouse (adb mouse ii)? mine lives near a cat (true, really...) and picks up her fur. from what i can tell, it looks like apple welded it shut. by rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter-clockwise you can open the mouse and clean it. it isn't as obvious as the desktop bus mouse i but it opens quite easily once you see what has to be done. geoffb@dartmouth.edu - computing support consultant, tuck school of business if you don't vote... you don't count. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50531">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50531" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just bought a centris 650 and discovered, to my dispointment, that apple has gotten too cheap to include a mike anymore, internal or external. you get a mic with the c650 if you get it with the internal cd rom drive. gary snow uunet!clark!gsnow or gsnow@clark.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50534">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50534" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo when i first got it, the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected, and i had to pull it the rest of the way. nowadays (and i've had the system for 4 months), the duo doesn't come out *at* *all* - despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises, and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself. is there a simple fix for this, or do i have to return it to my apple dealer, where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display, no vram, no floppy or scsi etc. (btw, it's not that the duo is locked into the dock - it just doesn't want to slide out any more). phil jimmieson, *********************************************** computer science dept., * janet : phil@uk.ac.liv.csc * liverpool university, * internet : phil@csc.liv.ac.uk * po box 147 *********************************************** liverpool l69 3bx "i was head over heels in love until i got cramp" (uk) 051-794-3689 also, has anyone heard any rumors that the new docks (the ones with the cpu :-) will be better designed that this first batch? i love my duo, but installing cards in the dock is not much fun. bob lord 100 south wacker room 932 network manager chicago il, 60606 cstar group, andersen consulting 312-507-5353 lord@andersen.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50535">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50535" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 but apple hd sc says "unable to locate a suitable drive on scsi"... what's he doing wrong? apples hdsc will only format a hard drive that apple sold. you need to use a third party formater like drive7 or spoton. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50536">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50536" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 what is the difference? i want a double-spin cd-rom drive by may looking into nec and apple, doublespins only what is the best? nec toshiba and sony (apple) nearly deliver the same speed. as apples prices are very low (compared to there ram simms) you should buy what is inexpencive. but think of driver revisions. it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other christian bauer bauer@informatik.uni-ulm.de i thought nec and toshiba cd-rom mechanism have an average access time of less than 200 ms. while the sony-apple cd-rom drive has an access time of 300 ms for the doublespin models. - chung yang the toshiba has a 200ms access time, the nec has a 280ms access time, right around the sony/apple. access time is, of course, somewhat important, but not as vital in the case of cds as data transfer rate. all the drives are double-speed drives with maximum data transfer rates of 300k/second. any is a good choice. apple's is very cheap when included with new macs and i agree with christian's comment about drivers. plus, apple's is bootable on the centris and quadra 800. a very nice feature if you need to install system software. i don't know if the nec or toshiba are bootable on those machines. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50538">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50538" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 industry. after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that oops, i meant fair, not unfair. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50539">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50539" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just got a quadra 800 8/230 and i've noticed that i can't change the desktop color from the beautiful gray. i thought maybe i should reinstall the os using the "install me first, macintosh centris, quadra..." diskette because the system file on this diskette is more recent than the one on the hard disk. the easy install selects "macintosh cnetris system software". does anyone know if i should use this or customize and use "system software for any macintosh"? or does it matter? thanks in advance for any suggestions... kay alexander old dominion university bitnet: kba100s@oduvm internet: kba100s@oduvm.cc.odu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50540">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50540" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 first, this is not an april 1 joke. a dealer in my town told me that the powerbook don't sell as they use to sell. the guy told me that apple is having the same problem it has when the desktop mac was too expensive ; the powerbook are too expensive in comparison to what you can get on the dos side. what do you think of this? do you feel the same thing about it? just curious. sounds about right. if there is high demand for a product there is little incentive to aggresively cut prices. once the demand fall off a bit, then is the time to start getting aggressive with pricing. waiting too long can really hurt your business though :-) the powerbooks have sold very well up to now, if they are slowing down apple needs to come out with some lower priced versions (the only reason i own a powerbook is that i could spring for a $900 pb100, the rest of the lineup is way to pricey for me). i'd bet they'll be coming out with more power versions too. -- michael peirce -- peirce@outpost.sf-bay.org -- peirce software -- suite 301, 719 hibiscus place -- -- san jose, california usa 95117 -- makers of: -- voice: (408) 244-6554 fax: (408) 244-6882 -- smoothie -- applelink: peirce & america online: afc peirce 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50542">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50542" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hello all. i am thinking about buying an external monitor for my se/30 and was wondering if anyone out in netland has any advice for me. i am mostly thinking about a 14" color monitor and an 8 bit card that can switch between 640*480 and something higher (like 800*600). i read an old report on a card from lapis that could do this, but could not use the external monitor as the main screen (with menubar) which to me is a major draw- back. has this perhaps been fixed? or can any other cards do this (like the micron xceed) ? also which monitor should i buy? at the moment i am leaning towards the sony 1304, 1304s or 1320 (what exactly is the difference between these?) but are there any other good cheap monitors i should know about? doesn't the monitor have to be multisync to support cards that can switch resolutions? please send me e-mail and i'll summarize. i would also greatly appreciate getting the e-mail addresses of any mail order companys that sell monitors or cards. thanks in advance eggert thorlacius university of iceland 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50548">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50548" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i would like to know what people's opinions are about the "real world" differences are between a c650 with and without a coprocessor... i don't use anything like mathamatica, maple, etc. i don't use spreadsheets (at least no sheets with complicated anything), i don't use 3d cad apps (although i used to), i do: use 3d renderers, extensive communications, i run a bbs, i write software, i write papers, etc... btw, just for kicks, this is what i was told by my local apple rep about upgrading a 68lc040 to a 69rc040 on a c650: "well, apple built in an extra socket for the coprocessor chip. that way, you just plug in the coprocessor, and it works." i then heartily laughed and hung up the phone. o---------------------------+======================================o | "i hate quotations. | this message brought you by | | tell me what you know." | nate sammons, and the number 42. | | --ralph waldo emerson | ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu | o---------------------------+======================================o 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50549">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50549" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i also use photoshop to edit photos, and do dtp work. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware50552">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware50552" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've got a racet 5.25" mo drive with a ricoh ro-5030e mechanism with the new roms... the thing is, i have a new tosoh optical disk 512/bytes per sector cart for the thing that refuses to mount or be formatted... all the carts that i have for the drive that work are racet certified media 512k/sector carts... all i can think of is that this tosoh cart uses some kind of incompatible low level format... anyone know what software will allow this to be formatted on this drive? or a new dip setting for the mechanism? i've tried just about every combination of drivers and custom formatting programs i can find with no luck... any ideas? joshc@csa.bu.edu (if you have a good idea, please e-mail it to this address if possible, i can't check this newsgroup constantly, thanks) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51084">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51084" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the powerbook 170 4/40 with fax/data modem is available thru citibank's citidollars catalog for $1995.00 + $19.95 s/h (+ 500 citidollars). the modem is 2400 bps data, 9600 bps fax (send only). # monty solomon / po box 2486 / framingham, ma 01701-0405 # monty%roscom@think.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51494">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51494" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 we have recently obtained a centris 610 and it has developed an unusual video problem. model: 610 with 8 mb/230 hd, 512k vram, no cards monitor: apple 16" when the computer is set for 256 colors and certain operations are done, particularly vertical scrolling through a window, horizontal white lines appear on the monitor (which generally but not always spare open windows). these lines accummulate as the operation is continued. if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen. this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for 16 colors or a 14 inch apple monitor with 256 colors is used. i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain. the problem has been apparent since day 1 but has gotten worse. we were wondering if anyone has seen anything like this, and if so, how to fix it. please also respond to azelenet@bigmac.mskcc.org. thank you for your help. andrew zelenetz molecular biology program memorial sloan-kettering cancer center 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51495">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51495" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 there's this old se here. it's got the older-style fans that remind me of a house-ventilator. a cylindrical drum instead of the bladed rotor i usually see. anyway, the se makes this loud buzzing noise due to vibration somewheres. if i remove the screws and loosen the front from the back, it quiets down. i can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing is touching the back of the case and vibrating against it. anyway, any suggestions for where to get replacement fans and how to "stealth" this guy? your experiences welcome..... "if everything had gone as planned, everything would have been perfect." -batf spokesperson on cnn 3/2/93, regarding failed raid attempt in tx. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51496">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51496" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers (cyclone and tempest), i am in need of some info. anything would be greatly appreciated. breedsa@wkuvx1.bitnet 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51497">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51497" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 since we are on the subject of chip power consumption, i heard (from a very reliable source) that the dec alpha chip uses 1/2 the power that intel's pentium chip does, and it still whips the pentium's butt. makes you wonder why intel ever made a chip to begin with! wouldn't you like a powerbook alpha running about 300 mips? cool idea.. bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!! sorry -- wrong. it would be an extremely hot idea...at least with the current alphas. the available alphas run up to 200 mhz. but they produce quite a bit of heat. in fact so much that they need special mounting with extra large heat also apple looks pretty commited to the powerpc route instead of a deal with dec. --sid sidney w. kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com data parallel systems, inc. ============|| dpsi ||=============== 4617 e. morningside drive (812) 334-8100 bloomington, indiana, 47408 usa fax: (812) 334-8121 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51501">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51501" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 this does not make sence...why would the 4fg work but the 3fgx not work...it is the same monitor without accucolor and digital controls...works fine at 1024x768 with svga...what's the deal....anyway you can get a svga 14" with .28mm and 1024x7 68 for $279 at damark...are you saing that it probably would work while a $600 nec won't? the 3fgx has a maximum horizontal scan rate of 49khz, so driving it at 60.24khz to get 1024 x 768 on the mac is way beyond the tolerance the 4fg is spec'ed at 57khz, so going 60.24khz is only 5-6% above the minimally guaranteed figure. i too doubt if the damark monitor would sync to a mac at 1024 x 768. like most things, you get what you pay. that's the deal. -john rutirasiri. p.s. i wouldn't have posted if i wasn't sure. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51503">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51503" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : basically, the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves, as if : reboot button were being pushed. sometimes the mac is able to fully : and display the desktop, but it is only a matter of time before it : again. at times, the frequency is as high as several times a minute. i wonder if your mac has those little "reset / interupt" switches installed. they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac. or mabey those switches are bad and need this problem is usually a low +5 vdc from the power supply, there is an adjustment for this on the supply. if the voltage is still unstable or low then the culprit is probably a bad rectifier at cr20. jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh@ludwig.cc.uoregon.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51507">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51507" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 any new reports about iisi clock upgrade to 25 mhz, 33 mhz? any failures? -a iisi owner with a slow mac and an itchcy soldering iron 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51509">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51509" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 quarda 900 is a popular misspelling of quadra 900, which has a 25 mhz 040 processor. the 950 has a 33 mhz 040, and some local buses on the motherboard run faster. the video is different also. the 950 can run a 13" and i believe a 16" monitor in 16 bit color without a vram upgrade. actually, you could put as much vram into a q900 as you want and you still won't be able to get 16-bit color, on any monitor. it's not part of the on-board video. the q950, however, can use 16-bit video on monitors up to 19" with 2mb of vram. yes, but if you upgrade the vram in a 900 you get 24 bit color. so you really don't care. my point is that out the box the 950 has more video capability for the same size monitors. the 900 can do 24 bit with both 13" and 16", doesn't support 19", and does 8 bit on 21" monitors. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51510">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51510" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i also believe that the 950 fixed a bug in the cpu which screwed up some floating point calculations. robert d. klapper washington university in st. louis rdk2@cec2.wustl.edu lubarsky's law of cybernetic entomology: there's always one more bug. does someone have any definite information on this. this is the first i've heard of it. how does the cpu get fixed by a hardware upgrade? this doesn't make much sense to me. let's see now... the differences between the 950 and 900 are basically: 1. runs at 33mhz, not 25mhz 2. has 25mhz i/o bus, not 16mhz 3. upgraded graphics controller 4. #3 results in q950 requiring 80ns vram, not 100ns 5. rom fixes: a. rounding errors in floating point calculations at 15th digit so patch the roms with the latest os version. i don't see how this is a problem. b. ethernet problems with more than 16 buffers so, no doubt, the person was refering to 5a, hardly "screwing up" though :) jim jagielski | "and he's gonna stiff me. so i say, jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov | 'hey! lama! how about something, nasa/gsfc, code 734.4 | you know, for the effort!'" greenbelt, md 20771 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51512">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51512" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra 700, and opinions on the q700 upgrade of a iici vs. an accelerator card. so far no responsed that i've noticed. please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths: cost, efficiency, pros/cons, etc.. thanks! complete q700 are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser. my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis-a-vis a iici are as follows: 25 mhz 68040 16 mhz data path (don't recall this for sure, but it's slower than q 950 style machines for sure). ethertalk card on-board audio in/out 4 mb ram on motherboard 4 simm slots 2 nubus slots. more flexible build-in video than the ci. uses vram. in comparison, a iici with an accelerator won't give you audio or ethernet or the same video options. with a 68040 accelerator, cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more. greg dudek 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51513">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51513" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 yes, you get internal mixing of the analog cd-audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard. also you can sample the cd-audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon. what's this? my iivx with an internal cd doesn't have any "cd-audio" icon... i can't find any such option on my centris 650 either. on the other hand, i don't see why i need one. if i try recording sound with the built-in microphone with an audio cd playing in the drive, i get the cd audio mixed in with the microphone sound. and i guess if i unplug the microphone, then i'll get uncontaminated cd audio (admittedly sampled at 8 bits through a d-a-d conversion). sorry about the misinformation. i made a bad assumption about the new machines behaving like a quadra 900, see previous post. about sampling the cd audio though, have you tried it? i found the aliasing to be really bad. like it needed a filter or something. much worse than i expected. i installed the cd-300 in the quadra myself so maybe i missed something. everything else works great though. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51514">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51514" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |>>after having used both syqyest and bernoulli's, i most enthuiastically |>>recommend |>>bernoulli's. syquests (although more popular) are much slower, prone to |>>cartridge |>what does your friends have? buy it. |>if you have no friends, buy a 128 mb optical and stop i bought a bernoulli 90pro drive last year after comparing it with lots of diffrent storage solutions, optical drives are slow, very slow compared to 13 to 19ms access of bernoulli. since i needed additinol online storage (rather than just a backup or archiev e disk), i choosed bernoulli drive. i use adobe preimere and quicktime movies alot. you ran out of storage real fast. imho, the best buy currently is the bernoulli 150multidisk. 150mb per cartridge homayoon akhiani "turning ideas into ... reality" digital equipment corporation "alpha, the new beginning" 77 reed rd. hudson, ma 01701 "all rights reserved. copyright(c)1993" email: akhiani@ricks.enet.dec.com "the words are mine, and not my employer" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51515">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51515" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac. can you recommend me a particular brand? what price are we talking about? jan vandenbrande jan@ug.eds.com (new address) jan@lipari.usc.edu (school address, forwards) uucp: {uunet, uupsi}!ug!jan 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51517">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51517" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a quick query for powerbook gurus: tom spearman, in a post on alternative powerbook battery options mentioned that there exist 3 versions of their powerbook 140-180 batteries: a 2.5 amp hour one (m5545/a), a 2.8 amp hour one, (m5545/b) and a 2.9 amp hour one (m5545/c). anyone out there know how to determine which of these a battery is? i looked at my battery and there is no obvious exterior indication. i contacted tom spearman who had gleaned the information from macuser and he didn't know either. anyone out there know the answer? thanks! christopher majka nextug@ac.dal.ca btw, if you can reply via email i would be grateful. i don't often read this newsgroup. i will post a summary of answers. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51518">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51518" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 can running a powerbook's battery completely flat have any detrimental side effects (other than the pb not going :) i ask, only two things i can think of. 1. although nicad (145,145,160,165c,170,180) batteries should be discharged about once a month, leadacid batteries (100) shouldn't ever be completely discharged (well, maybe once in a while is okay). this is a very common mis-conception dealing with ni-cad batteries. it a good idea to completely discharge a ni-cad cell periodically. it is not a good idea to completely discharge a ni-cad battery. the being that a cell is only one cell (nicad puts out 1.2 volts) like a rechargeable aaa, aa, c, or d. a battery is defined as more than one cell (9 volt, or 7.2 for nicad equivalent). due to differences in the individual cells of a battery, complete discharge can actually harm a nicad battery more than help it overcome the "memory effect". the most common problem is that over time an individual cell can develop internal shorts, which will weaken other cells that are connected to it, thus reducing the lifespan of your battery pack. etc.... okay, naive question: how does one discharge a cell without discharging the entire battery? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51519">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51519" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 excuse me if this is a frequent question, i checked in several faqs but couldn't really find anything. i have a iisi with the standard 5 meg memory and i want (need) to add additional memory. but i'm on a budget. i really don't need more than 10 meg max, so what is the best (performance wise) and most economical way to do this? someone told me that i should only use simms of the same amount of memory, that is 4 1 meg, 4 2 meg, etc. what if i just wanted to buy just 1 4 meg and use the rest of what i already have? the manual hasn't been very helpful with this. (respond via e-mail if it isn't worth the bandwidth.) "common human laws and interests "i wouldn't exactly call it a and emotions have no validity a happy dogma, but it makes me or signifigance in the vast feel better about not cosmos-at-large..." getting laid..." -hp lovecraft -r. carter ______ ______ __ | /\ ___\ /\ ___\ /\ \ jacob@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu | \ \___ \\ \___ \\ \ \___ | \/\_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ | \/_____/ \/_____/ \/_____/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51520">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51520" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there, i am trying to find out a reliable power center, it is basically a surge protector that sits below the monitor and has individual control for each outlet. some people have an opinion that none of them work well. the ones that i could locate in microcenter catalogue were: tripp lite's isobar command console ($79) proxima power director (89.95) kensington masterpiece plus (109.95) has anyone used one of these? could you please send me your feedback on these? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51523">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51523" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 you can find retail that is within the price of a keyboard of educational i would be very wary of retail outlets selling as cheap as educational prices! i went for a retailer, actually mail order (cda computers), because its price was better thant the campus computer store. i found out why later on when i tried to get a repair done at an apple registered repair center - the cpu was a resale. the serial number had been removed and replaced with a non-standard number (probably from cda computers). consequently, the apple repair man could not do any warrenty repairs. so i ended up with just a 90day warrenty from cda over the apple 12month warrenty. boy, was i pi**ed! moral of the story, caveat however, if you go with a reliable, trustworthy mail order firm (if they exist - maybe someone could enlighten us with their experiences), you will probably get a better price than your local educational outlet simply because mail order out of state does not require sales tax yet. though for how much longer remains to be seen. the addition in sales tax on a cpu purchase will probably wipe out an educational discount. again caveat emptor, some mail order companies do include sales tax on purchases even if they are out of state, so check! \\\\/ richard j appleyard f0975893@jaguar.csc.wsu.edu /o o\ washington state university ( ) ) voice (509) 335-7728 fax (509) 335-9688 \_o_/ "to err is human, but to really screw things up takes a computer!" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51524">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51524" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i too am interested in peoples' experience with accelerators for the se. is an accelerator the best route to improve performace in my se, or should i consider upgrading to an se/30 motherboard? obviously, buying a new mac would be ideal, but alas, i only have enough money for an accelerator or e-mail reply preferred. thanks. steve labovitz dept. of materials science & engineering u. penn 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51525">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51525" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi all: does anyone know where i can get the cheapest price for the teleport gold fax modem by global village? any answer will be highly appreciated. thanks in advance. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51529">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51529" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my macclassic mouse died. i dissected it and determined that it is the microswitch, that senses the click, that is stuck in the depressed mode. this tragedy prompts the following questions: 1. is it easy to find a microswitch that i could solder into the place of the old switch ? 2. i have old mice (max+, mac 512ke), can they be used with some adapter ? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51530">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51530" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have just been introduced to macintosh systems. i have a few questions. e-mail prefered. 1) just what is system 7? i want hard details not dingy commercials like their ads in magazines... 2) has anyone used the microsoft office 3.0? i would like suggestions on, and descriptions on: * each has a microsoft before the actual name. a) *word 5.1: b) *excel 4.0: c) *power point: d) *mail 3.1 3) what is the major differences between mac wordperfect and word? thanks a lot! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51533">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51533" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 what the heck is this? is this true? aps has no info, since they get their formatter from apollyonics and they haven't been any help... actually, it's transoft now, and that's what i meant ;) jim jagielski | "and he's gonna stiff me. so i say, jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov | 'hey! lama! how about something, nasa/gsfc, code 734.4 | you know, for the effort!'" greenbelt, md 20771 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51534">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51534" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 forgive me if this has been asked before... but here goes: my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? compusa and computercity supercenter says they don't carry them. does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board? much obiliged, | mmiller@garnet.msen.com | "the more i deal with hearing | | editor-in-chief/co-publisher of | people, the more i understand | | the deaf michigander | terrorism." | | $22 a year for 11" by 17" | -marvin | | monthly newspaper | | | (e-mail me for a complimentary | above quote does not apply to | | copy today!) | all hearing people, though. | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51535">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51535" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : i guess this changes my opinion of them and i thought i would warn : any prospective customers for the en/sc pb. fwiw, i work for focus enhancements, and a lot of the people we sell our etherlan sc/sc-t (our scsi ethernet interface) are disgruntled en/sc : i also now need to know if anyone has been successful with the : comparable product from dayna or focus. i really don't want to use up : that nubus slot. *sigh*. i wish i had better news. the focus etherlan sc is currently incompatible with the duos. this may change in the future. we do have apple register compatible cards that are 100% compatible with the duodocks, though. send questions to focus@applelink.apple.com. | peter a. cohen | i'd rather be telecommuting. | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51536">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51536" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've noticed an interesting phenomenon on my centris 650. if i unplug keyboard and mouse and plug them in again without turning the power the mouse suddenly switches to about half its normal movement speed. i check the "mouse" control panel, and there's no change in its setting there--it's still on full speed, the way i like it. restarting the restores the normal mouse speed. by the way, it happens with both the newer-style mouse that came with centris, and the older-style mouse from my iifx at work. thus i don't it has anything to do with the resolution setting in the mouse--it's definitely a quirk of the adb interface (either hardware or software) the centris itself. i have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my lciii. perhaps is a quirk of the new machines? sorry, but mine works fine (c650) my 2 cents worth... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51538">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51538" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine has problems running spigot lc on an lc iii. his configuration is: spigot lc / lc iii, system 7.1 video spigot extension 1.0 i would appriciate if i can get any postitive/negative experience with this 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51539">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51539" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 in the macuser article on the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the c650 and the q800, and not the c610, had rom accelerated video. what is it? i don't recall seeing it in dale adams post. of course it was in dale's post, just not in the words that macuser used. rom accelerated video just means that some quickdraw commands has been rewritten (inside the rom) to take advantage of the 68040 addressing modes. commands that do fills should be slightly faster since the new instructions fetch 2 bytes at a time versus one. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51545">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51545" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 there is a defect in the 13" hi-res monitors, bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free, i think. i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free. - / o r r the service notice on the 13" hi-res monitors expired 3/23/93 after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix (replacement of the hi-voltage capacitor). all you folks that have been putting up with intermittant shutdowns without getting it to your service provider missed out on the freebie. it was in force for a year. if you got it free after 3/23, you got a deal... jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh@ludwig.cc.uoregon.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51548">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51548" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i'd appreciate it greatly if someone could e-mail me the following: (if you only know one, that's fine) 1) specs for the 68040 (esp. how it compares to the pentium) 2) specs for the 68060 with estimated cost, release date, etc... i'm interested in speeds, systems it can run (windows nt, risc, or whatever), costs, bus info, register info. all the technical info. i am hoping that the 68040 can win yet another battle against the intel people. :) thanks for any info you can give. -lazer (patrick delahanty) |warning!: mst3k & star trek fan, macintosh user, internet: patrickd@wpi.wpi.edu| and co-sysop of l/a blues bbs! lazer@lablues.uucp | call l/a blues bbs (207-777-3465 or 777-7782) * macintosh user * | for macintosh & ms-dos files & *free usenet*! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51554">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51554" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 did you remember to clamp ground to the engine block first? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51557">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51557" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm in the market for a post-script compatible laser writer. my needs are pretty modest so 300 dpi, 4 pages a minute would be just fine. my budget is also pretty modest, so inexpensive would also be good. it will be working from a single mac, but networkability would probably be a good investment for the future. with that in mind... 1) anyone have comments about the suitability/quality/value of a gcc blp elite printer? i just recently purchased the gcc blp elite and i really like it. my are much the same as what you describe. in addition, i wanted to get one i could access via appletalk, so that eliminated the new line of printers from apple. the print quality is good to excellent based on font you're using and what paper you use. i'm still experimenting with different papers, but a medium grade laser printer paper seems to work printing envelopes, transpariencies, letter head, or other single feed jobs is very easy. there is an adjustable, automatic centering, guide on top of sheet feeder which aligns the paper properly (and doesn't feed a sheet the sheet feeder, as some do). (i have no affiliation with gcc, just a satisfied customer.) earl d. fife | department of mathematics fife@calvin.edu | calvin college (616)957-6403 | grand rapids, mi 49546 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51559">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51559" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hm, maybe i'm missing something, but the centris 650 has the '040 with fpu. at least the ones shipped here in europe. you are indeed. the 4/80 model (shipped here) definitely does not have the fpu. i own one; i know. no, he's not missing anything. you're right that some models of the 650 ship in the usa without fpu or ethernet. per ejeklint is also right -- *all*, i repeat, *all* centris 650's sold here in new zealand and, i assume, europe have the fpu and ethernet. i know. i bought a 650 4/80 and it has both fpu and ethernet. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51561">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51561" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am working a data acquisition and analysis program to collect data from insect sensory organs. (stuff deleted) another alternative is the use of the sound input port. can you really make due with the non-existent dynamic range of an 8-bit converter, of probably dubious linearity and monotonicity, and perhaps ac-coupled as well? it clearly depends on the type of questions you are asking but in many cases it will do fine. the critical information from the neuron is in the firing frequency (maximum about 100 action potentials per seconds), and not in the amplitude of the signal or in details of the signal shape. so the resolution of about 0.4 % you get with an 8 bit convertor is more then sufficient. ac coupling does not have to be a problem either, since in many cases you are not interested in the dc level. my pre amplifier is ac coupled also. the critical point is the lowest frequency that will pass. if the cutoff point is to high, the action potentials will be slightly distorted. but even that normally does not matter since it is the occurrence of the spike that is important. however, i do want to know what exactly i can expect before i start battling with the toolbox to get it going. as yet i have no clue were to start looking for the technical specifications. roes@vax.oxford.ac.uk 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51562">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51562" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just read an article on the swii. one thing puzzles me: the article says the swii is a serial-only device. does that mean i'll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something??? no. plug the printer in the printer port, and the modem in the modem port. ;) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51563">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51563" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the trackbal on my pb140 no longer moves in the horizontal direction. when i called the nearest authorized apple service person i was told that it probably needed replacing and that would cost me over $150! ouch! can anyone recommend a less expensive way to fix this problem? one strange symptom of the problem is that when i take the ball out of the socket and shine a light into the hole i can make the cursor move horizontally by moving the wheel with my finger, it works fine that way but won't work if i turn off the light. any suggestions or comments? ben roy .......just a poor college student.......internet<br4416a@american.edu> since you're obviously adept enough to understand how the trackball works, the only thing short of repairing it that i can think of is a thorough cleaning of all the parts, and then checking for the proper placement of the little blue rollers. since they aren't fixed in position on their stainless steel pins, you might try sliding them into a slightly different position. on my powerbook 100, i can slide them almost completely out of contact with the trackball. in fact, one of the notes from sumex on fixing the trackball advocates sliding the roller so that its _edge_ contacts the ball, not the center cylindrical area. i've done this with my pb100, and it does seem to improve the feel, but needs to be adjusted from time to time. i just popped open one of our office's pb170s, and while there isn't as much latitude for movement, one could still adjust the roller slightly. if your pb140 is the same it might i would suspect the most likely culprit to be a slippery blue roller. if you can take it out, clean it with a mild soapy solution, or isopropyl alcohol. also, be sure the ball is grease-free. if you drop the ball in minus the retaining ring, roll the ball and see if it is actually causing the axle to spin. if all this still doesn't solve it, then maybe a new one is in order. :-( it could be an electrical connection, in which case replacement would be necessary. but my experience with both mice and trackballs has been that dirt has been the normal problem, not an electrical malfunction. hope this helps, murray m. altheim "ils ont l'orteil de bouc, & d'un chevreil l'oreille, instructional consultant la corne d'un chamois, & la face vermeille csu, sacramento comme un rouge croissant: & dancent toute nuict altheimm@csus.edu dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51564">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51564" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my duo 230 crashe. i close the lid. it goesto sleeplikenormal. then i open it press a key. the screen showsthis wied pattern. you can berely make outthe menubar on top., although there are no words on the bar. anditfrezzes. why? ---lowell * lowell reiter "i need a vacation... now!!! " * * tufts university * * internet account: lreiter@jade.tufts.edu * i have the same problem and was about to post this.... hello duo owners (and apple technical people :-) i have a new duo 230 which appears to have a problem waking up from sleep when running on battery power. when woken (usually for the second time) after sleeping, the wake fails and the screen appears with a corrupted image of broken horizontal lines and control can only be recovered with control-command-poweron or the reset key at the back of the machine. the problem occurs even when the system is stock standard (no extensions, no virtual memory, a fully charged new battery, system 7.1 etc). i have not had the problem when the machine is plugged in to ac. i've checked that the battery is properly seated (it appears to be fine). what's going on here ? anyone else had this problem ? is it software or hardware ? if you have a duo 230 and a bit of time, try repeatedly sleeping and waking the machine on battery power and let me know if you see the same behaviour (and let apple know too !). many thanks to anyone who can clear this one up for me. bruce tulloch sydney australia - brucet@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ***complex problems have straight forward, easy to understand wrong answers*** 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51566">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51566" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i do not have this type of problem, but at one point an apple rep told me that duo's "system enabler" file version 1.0.1 fixes some kind of sleep-related problem. you may want to investigate this... -josip loncaric 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51567">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51567" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just read an article on the swii. one thing puzzles me: the article says the swii is a serial-only device. does that mean i'll have to unplug my modem time i want to print something??? no. the printer port on the mac is also serial. it has the same interface as the imagewriter ii. system: fourd.com phone: 617-494-0565 cute quote: being a computer means never having to say you're sorry 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51568">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51568" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm in the market for an internal color video adaptor for my pb 145. i was wondering if anyone has used the powervision adaptor made by mirror. if so, can you tell me how feel about the speed and compatability of it? i might also be interested in other boards by envisio etc., so if you have such a board please e-mail your opinion of it. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51569">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51569" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on is "not supported", and you can hit problems if you have multiple devices with clashing addresses, and all that. i've had a couple of e-mail responses from people who seem to believe that this sort of thing is not only unsupported, it is downright dangerous. i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple. just to be sure, i asked a couple of our technicians, one of whom has been servicing macs for years. there is *no* danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on. noooooooo! i've been servicing macs for years too, and i've had to repair a number of motherboards that had been damaged this way. it's rare, but it does happen. mind you, this doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. the parts that can blow (the adb power fuse and rf filter) aren't too expensive, so if you have a someone around who can do component-level repair, it may be worth the risk (especially if you're around seattle, 'cause you might get to pay *me* to fix it :-)).. on the other hand, if your only repair option is the apple-standard logic board swap (major $$$$), you should probably play it safe. scsi, yes, adb, no... scsi: yes, adb: yes, floppies: yes... they can all cause trouble. gordon davisson davisson@stein.u.washington.edu westwind computing (206) 632-8141 4518 university way ne, suite 311, seattle wa 98105 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51577">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51577" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i would like to know if a performa plus monitor is compatible with apple 14in color display, or it is just a vga moniro. any help will be appreciate. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51579">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51579" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the title says it all. i need to know the 44, 88, and 88c rom versions. steve :-) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51583">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51583" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac. can you recommend me a particular brand? what price are we talking about? for a good display, you *must* get an active matrix panel and a *very* bright overhead projector designed to be used with an lcd panel (i.e. stage must not get too hot). i tried out a proxima ovation unit and liked it, but i needed a brighter projector (i used it with a 3m 920). it is also too expensive for what you get, imho. prices of active matrix panels are rumoured to drop substantially sometime this year (something to do with tarrifs being lifted i think). in canadian dollars, the proxima ovation models ranged in price from about $5000 to $7000 and a good overhead projector about $1000 to $1500. for that kind of money, you can get a brighter image from a three beam projector, but sacrifice portability. oh yes, proper room lighting is extremely important, especially if you want your audience to have enough light to read handouts and not have that light wash out your display at the front of the room. tricky to get right. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51586">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51586" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know where i can still get an internal fax modem for the original mac portable? i know they were made for a while by several manufacturers, but i can't find them now. thanks for your help. gene wright gene@jackatak.raider.net (gene wright) ------------jackatak.raider.net (615) 377-5980 ------------ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51587">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51587" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just recently bought a 4 mb ram card for my original mac portable (backlit) and have since had some bizarre crashes. it happens when i put the machine to sleep and wake the machine up. sometimes it will just freeze the cursor and lock the machine up forcing me to push the reset switch. other times it will give me the usual bomb box with the error message of "co processor not installed". i know one solution is not to put the machine to sleep, but does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this or better yet what might fix it? the memory card is psuedostatic ram and goes into the pds slot. that probably figures into the problem. the manufacturer is king memory (not kingston) from irvine, ca. they say the problem is in my machine. any ideas? -- gene wright. gene@jackatak.raider.net (gene wright) ------------jackatak.raider.net (615) 377-5980 ------------ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51589">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51589" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 with a little luck, i could own a c650 sometime in the near future, and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me: 1. what speed simms does the c650 need/want? (i know that it needs 80ns vram...not sure for the main ram.) 2. i've heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c650's ram...132 and 136 megs. which is true? (perhaps another phrasing would be better: does the 8 meg version come with all 8 megs on the logic board, or 4 megs + a 4 meg simm?) just wondering.... *** dave hollinsworth ********* hlsw_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu o |"| * "it's astounding; time is fleeting; madness takes * play /\ | | * its toll." -- riff raff, rocky horror picture show * pinball! /\ \-------| *** disclaimer: they're my opinions. are they yours? ********* / / |-------| 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51590">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51590" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi all, i have a iisi with a floppy drive that might be bad (and might just be out of alignment, i haven't checked yet. :-)) if the drive is not easily reparable, i'd like to replace it with an _internal_ floptical. can this be easily done? can it be done at all? i'm assuming that floptical drives can read and write both 800k and 1.4k floppies. if this is not in fact true, please tell me. thanks in advance, ~ kiran 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51597">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51597" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades (cards, hard drive, etc). can you tell me what the power limitations are for 1) the pds slot and 2) the hard drive power feed. secondly, can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each, or if instead, there is a single limit for both combined? felix lin, a new reader of comp.sys.mac.hardware feilimau@leland.stanford.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51598">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51598" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 attention: mac quadra owners: many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification. this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices, including ultra-modern devices. although i will not name the devices, since it is not their fault, an example would be a sony 3.5 inch mo, without the special "mac-compatible" firmware installed. one solution, sometimes, is to disable "blind writes" this doesn't sound right to me. don't quadras use the 53c96? if so, the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing. that's all handled by the chip. about the only the timing could be wrong is if apple programs the clock registers wrong on the 96. that, however, should only really hurt synchronous transfer, which is not used by the mac scsi manager. furthermore, disabling blind writes should be meaningless on a quadra. on macs that used the 5380, which is a much lower level scsi chip, the mac was responsible for the handshake of each byte transferred. blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake. on the 5396, the handshake is entirely handled by the chip. --tim smith 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51599">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51599" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 would a virtual screen of larger size be of use to you? i have been using stepping out v?.? for some time. it still is working now on a powerbook with system 7.1, minor problem with menubar icons at right edge. what's the latest version of stepping out that works ok with s7.1? -- denis 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51600">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51600" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi! i am looking for ftp sites (where there are freewares or sharewares) for mac. it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites. any information is appreciated. thanks in advance. s. young dept. of info. sc. univ. of tokyo email:young@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51603">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51603" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 could someone please do one of the following: 1. point to an init that allows me to turn off power management on my duo 210. 1. write an init that would allow me to turn off all power management on duo 210. 2. point me to documentation on power management so that i can write such an init. 3. explain to me why such an init is totally or partially impossible. ideally, of course, i would like to be able to turn in on and off on the surely such an init would be very helpful to powerbook owners who want to do midi... i cannot imagine why it is not possible to do, unless it requires apple to divluge some secret. and if that is the case, the surely apple could write the init. (unless apple brings out new models so fast these days that even they don't know how they work). scott petrack petrack@haifasc3.vnet.ibm.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51604">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51604" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 apple announced that it will start selling three new vesions of its performa 400. the new machines will have built-in modems and bundled software. the new models will be the 405, 430 and 450. prices are not set by apple, but by the retailer. the prices of the new machines are expected to range from $1300-$1900. what kind of post is this? if you have something substantial to tell the world, then at least give us details! so what if they are coming out with new macs, they always do that... what's new about these models? etc... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51607">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51607" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i had the same question for my 55lb nec 5fg monitor. the apple guy said that their 50lb 16" monitor is ok to put ontop of the centris and had no coment beyond that. i was going to just put the nec on the box but then i got to thinking - the monitor has a small tilt/swivel base so maybe the weight would be more concentrated than with apple's (i don't know the area of the base of their tilt/swivel). additionally, the cdrom drive is in the middle. so i cut a piece of 3/8" thick wood to about 16.25" x 12", covered it in a cream covered cloth, and used it as a buffer layer between the centris's top and the monitor!! mick mueck mick.mueck@analog.com **************** i hate *chipsoft's* macintax ******************* 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51613">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51613" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i don't know about the specific problem mentioned in your message, but i definitely had scsi problems between my q700 and my venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives. my solution was to get silverlining. none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives; in fact the only loop that worked was the "macintosh software" loop (whatever that means). --mark 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51616">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51616" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 1. the mac ii is supposed to have a socket for the mc68851 pmmu chip. could anyone let me know where that socket is on the motherboard. i have obtained a pmmu chip (16 mhz) from a surplus store, and would like to install it onto my mac ii (circa 1987). but i cannot see the socket myself when i tried to install it. the original mac ii had an apple mmu chip installed which performs a subset of the 68851's functions. if you look underneath your front left floppy bay you will find three chips, all approximately the same size. one will be the 68020, the next the 68881, and the third, approximately the same size, will be the apple chip. it is easy to spot because it has a 'hump' in the middle of it. example: that and the apple logo should make it easy to find. mpretzel@cs.utexas.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51617">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51617" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 about hard drive companies: the original 160 meg drive that was bad (bad sector or something) was an ibm. the new one is a quantum. is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms? is there a quality difference? officially, no. from experience (yours now included!), yes. quantums seem to be the most problem-free brand on the mac. second, about hard drive position. i've put the lciii on its side and the new 160 hd has had no problems at all. i've even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems. as far as i'm concerned i don't believe hd position is important for drives up to 160 meg, in any computer. don't know about cd-rom, though. it should not matter for the hard drive or the mac. well, as long as it doesn't fall over. ;) this signature under construction wyvern technologies | tidewater's premier online information system | (804) 627-1818, login guest, password guest to register 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51619">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51619" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? compusa and computercity supercenter says they don't carry them. does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board? yes. that is exactly what it means. the lc family of macs can only use pds cards. they are not able to use nubus. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51620">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51620" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 similarly, i have trained myself to hold down the right-hand pair of command-option for desktop rebuilds. i tried the right set and it didn't work. i'm on the phone to their tech support right now and the guys doesn't know what a desktop rebuild is!!! he's got me holding for someone else............... and holding, and holding, and holding. ok they finally got back to me and said basically "it should work". well it doens't and they don't know why. guess it will go back to macconnection and i'll buy something else. i've got better things to do than play musical keyboards. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51622">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51622" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is it possible to fit an fpu in a mac se? (not a se/30, but the plain old se); if possible, would i get any speed increase? what would be the reference of the chip? thanks in advance, %%sylvain r.y. louboutin, phone:(+353-1)7021539, e-mail:sloubtin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie %%distributed system group, o'reilly institute, room f.35, fax:(+353-1)6772204 %%department of computer science, trinity college, dublin 2, -ireland- ask-18 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51624">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51624" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 in article <1993apr16.075822.22121@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, with a little luck, i could own a c650 sometime in the near future, and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me: 1. what speed simms does the c650 need/want? (i know that it needs 80ns vram...not sure for the main ram.) 60ns 72 pin simms. 2. i've heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c650's ram...132 and 136 megs. which is true? (perhaps another phrasing would be better: does the 8 meg version come with all 8 megs on the logic board, or 4 megs + a 4 meg simm?) 2 configs: 4mb & 8mb. in each case the memory is soldered on the board leaving the 4 simm sockets open. 132mb is the total addressable memory for a according to the (seen several times) postings from dale adams of apple computer, both the 610 and the 650 require 80ns simms - not 60 ns. only the centris 800 requires 60 ns simms. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51625">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51625" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 now if i can figure out if there's any hope using the "partition" button on the hard disk setup utility (do i dare just try it and see what happens?), then maybe i can divide up the wealth among the family members a bit more securly. the "getting more information" section of the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple, but didn't mention the net. mike feldman, motorola computer group, (217) 384-8538, fax (217) 384-8550 1101 east university avenue pager in il (800) 302-7738, (217) 351-0009 urbana, il 61801-2009 (mcdphx|uiucuxc)!udc!feldman feldman@urbana.mcd.mot.com the partition button in apple's hd setup lets you set up a/ux and other types of partitions. it won't let you create more than one normal mac volume. you need silverlining or something similar to do that. it will, however, allow you to take advantage of some possible unused space on your hard disk, if you don't mind reformatting the whole thing. chris ellens ellens@bnr.ca 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51627">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51627" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 try maxapplezoom ( a shareware init ) if your monitor is not driven by internal 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51629">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51629" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i cannot speak for dale. but i am quite sure that the macintosh uses the full 16-bit or 32-bit data path to its full advantage. that is, it is running as fast with two or four 30-pin simms as it would with one 72-pin simm. now, it may be that longword accesses (assuming a 32-bit data path here) get the first byte from the first simm, the second byte from the second, and so on. this would mean that each longword of memory is actually split among four simms, one for each byte. on the other hand, it could be that the simms are interleaved by word or longword (not just by byte), or they could be successive in memory, and the memory controller deals with the eight-bit data path that each one has. i suspect, though, that they are interleaved to some extent so that 32 bits can be read or written at once. this would indicate a byte-level i am not confusing this with the new machines' longword interleave with two 72-pin simms of the same sort, although that seems to be the same sort of idea. there, you get an essential 64-bit data path ro (excuse me, to) ram instead of just a 32-bit one. yes, the cpu can't handle it, but when writing to successive addresses it speeds something so, dale, am i right? 30-pin simms are interleaved by bytes, allowing the full data bus? or, as is common with usenet and me in particular, am i as clueless as everyone else? what conclusion can be drawn from this? i'm trying to figure out what kind of memory configuration for the lc iii (32-bit datapath) would be fastest. any jason macdonald - jason scott macdonald - jsm1@cornell.edu - jsm1@crux3.cit.cornell.edu "technology sufficiently advanced is ____ indistinguishable from magic." \ / "cats exist so that we -- arthur c. clarke \/ may caress the lion." 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51630">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51630" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 anyone seen any press releases or heard any rumors of a cache card for the lciii, now that it has the full data bus width on the pds slot? maurice internet: lriggins@afit.af.mil 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51632">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51632" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 doesn't a 1 mb simm have about 1024 * 1024 * 8 moving flip-flops? they don't move, to anybody much bigger than an electron :-) noah@apple.com macintosh hardware design ...!{sun,decwrl}!apple!noah (not the opinions of) apple computer, inc. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51634">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51634" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? compusa and computercity supercenter says they don't carry them. does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board? apple doesn't make such a card, though i suppose a third party could. one big problem is that there isn't room for a standard nubus card inside the lc iii. noah@apple.com macintosh hardware design ...!{sun,decwrl}!apple!noah (not the opinions of) apple computer, inc. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51635">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51635" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 yes, you get internal mixing of the analog cd-audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard. also you can sample the cd-audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon. how do you click on the options button? i've never seen it undimmed. the latest word on this is you have to disconnect the microphone cable on the motherboard. then the button is supposed to un-dim. the audio will simply select the cd audio when the microphone is removed. i don't believe the button un-dims, since there's nothing to select. i haven't tracked down a centris to check this on though. sorry, i assumed that the the various new machines with the internal cd-rom bay worked the same as the quadra 900. obviously they don't. yup, i made the same mistake several months ago when this issue came up before :-) noah@apple.com macintosh hardware design ...!{sun,decwrl}!apple!noah (not the opinions of) apple computer, inc. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51637">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51637" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i like it a lot. it is worth the additional expense. the only problem i found is with ms word (5.1a). if you have a table the is longer than a page and the cells have a visible border, the last (bottom of page) line on the first page will be missing. it makes no difference how the table is formatted. the worst is that it doesn't show up in word's page view or page preview. | arie covrigaru | university of michigan ai lab | | phone: (313)994-8887 | room 149, advanced technology bldg. | | internet: arie@eecs.umich.edu | 1101 beal ave., ann arbor, mi 48109 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51638">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51638" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> in article <1993apr11.234818.1755@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, |> > doesn't a 1 mb simm have about 1024 * 1024 * 8 moving flip-flops? |> they don't move, to anybody much bigger than an electron :-) dynamic ram is not based on flip-flops; there's basically a single transistor and capacitor to store each bit! static ram is based on flip-flops, and is much more expensive and much less dense. and neither has any parts that "move", if electrons and thermal expansion are ignored... |> noah chris wood bellcore ccw@ctt.bellcore.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51640">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51640" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a new 25 mhz motorola 68040 that i am willing to sell if i get a good enough offer. it is still in its static free sealed package. if i don't get a good enough offer, i will use it to replace my 68lc040. any takers? supposedly you can get one of these for $375. however, at the moment the demand is higher than the supply so i think $400 is a good round number. i will pay shipping, of course. all offers should be send to lewallen@cis.ohio-state.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51644">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51644" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 well i am using the home office. i bought it for arounde $350. it does 14.4. i don't know if it's for data or fax. but the feature i use is the voic mail box, which i really have liked. captain zod... _|/_ / zod@ncube.com |-|-|/ 0 /| 0 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51645">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51645" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 do the accelaratores make a lot of difference? as i understand, there is graphics and cpu accelaration. does graphics accelarator help out with the scanner and the photo shop? is combination of both practical? i have a mac iici. what kinds of accelaratores can i use? captain zod... _|/_ / zod@ncube.com |-|-|/ 0 /| 0 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51646">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51646" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a macc iici and a color scanner. i scanned a picture at 600 dpi. when i try to print it on my hp500 color printer, after 10 minutes of making noise, the mac hangs. i would need to reboot it. what does this mean? do i need to buy more memory? i have 5.0 mb now. i also have about 50 mb of disk free, and the scanned picture is about 12 mb. captain zod... _|/_ / zod@ncube.com |-|-|/ 0 /| 0 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51647">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51647" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 on a side note, has anyone ever had a mac plus "smoke out" on them? we have had four machines that all of a sudden start emitting a thick grayish white smoke. in each case it was a capacitor that had gone bad. has anyone else encountered this? keith cooley ee macintosh lab administrator louisiana tech university tkc@engr.latech.edu we've had it happen a time or two. beginning students think it is pretty entertaining when it happens during a lab lecture or demonstration. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51648">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51648" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm considering adding a floptical drive to my current system. what i would like to know is which floptical drives are recommended for their quality and performance. my preference would be floptical drives capable of handling both 800k and 1.4k floppies, but handling 800k floppies is not a necessity. so far, i only know a bit about the iomega floptical and the infinity floptical drives. are there any comments/recommendations for either of these? are there any other floptical drives that are worth looking into and where can they be purchased (i.e. which mail order places, etc). thanks in advance. please send replies directly to umsoroko@ccu.umanitoba.ca mike sorokowski (umsoroko@ccu.umanitoba.ca) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51649">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51649" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am selling my global village teleport 2400 bps modem w/send fax. it connects to the mac through the adb port. the software for sending faxes is included. i am asking $90. however, i will consider other reasonable offers. please e-mail me. dave peak internet -- dppeak@matt.ksu.ksu.edu aol -- skibum7 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51652">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51652" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra 700, and opinions on the q700 upgrade of a iici vs. an accelerator card. so far no responsed that i've noticed. please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths: cost, efficiency, pros/cons, etc.. thanks! complete q700 are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser. my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis-a-vis a iici are as follows: 25 mhz 68040 16 mhz data path (don't recall this for sure, but it's slower than q 950 style machines for sure). ethertalk card on-board audio in/out 4 mb ram on motherboard 4 simm slots 2 nubus slots. more flexible build-in video than the ci. uses vram. in comparison, a iici with an accelerator won't give you audio or ethernet or the same video options. with a 68040 accelerator, cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more. greg dudek actually, an accelerator such as the daystar 33 mhz 68040 is cheaper than upgrading to a q700 (25 mhz). the accelerator costs about $1400 whereas the upgrade costs $2131 (just quoted from my dealer). however the q700 upgrade gives you very fast built in video that supports monitors up to 21" with 8 bit depth and up to 16" at 24 bit depth (with additional vram). it also has a scsi port capable of a much faster throughput than the ci, which makes a big difference if you have a fast hard drive. if the improved video and scsi features are important to you, you're better off getting the q700 upgrade, otherwise save some money and get an 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51653">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51653" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi there, i have a question regarding quadras vram. i have tried to find info on this but i could not get precise answers. on one hand, we have a quadra 950 with a 16" monitor, which is capable of 32-bit color. how much vram does it have? on the other hand, we have a quadra 800 with a 16" monitor, which is capable of 8-bit color only, so it must have 512 ko of vram. i would like to take vram simms for the 950 and put them in the 800 so that both machines have 16-bit color capability. is it possible, and if yes, how many vram simms should i take from the 950? from the documentation i have, the quadra 800 must get 1 mo vram to have 16-bit color, is that correct? bonus question: where do vram simms hide? from the 950 documentation, they seem to be *behind* the power supply. do i really have to take off the power supply to access the vram simms? thanks for your help! daniel salber, user interface research team, lgi-imag, grenoble, france. salber@imag.fr 
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 hi all: thanks to you all who have responded to my request for info on various kinds of fax modem. i'd like to ask a few more questions. 1. what are the advantages of buying a global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra, zoom etc? 2. i heard that both supra and zoom use the same software. why are there so many complaints about the incompatibility problems of supra? what kind of incompatibility is it? 3. if i decided to buy the teleport gold, is there any possibility to add a voice option in the near future? 4. has anyone heard of a possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer? 5. a person did mention a new at&t modem. is it getting good reviews from various mac magazines? 6. if i want the best, fastest, most economically sound and possible voice option, what fax modem should i buy? sorry for posting so many questions, but i think they're necessary. i promise to repost any answers if they're not already posted by a responder. thanks so much in advance. 
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 this is a test 
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 when is apple supposed to start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse ii with all cpus sold? jeffrey a. sullivan | research scientist et al. jas@isi.edu (internet) | information sciences institute 72511,402 (compuserve) | university of southern california 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51659">
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 i am having trouble with scsi on a mac iifx. the machine is 3 years old and i have been using the same hard drive (internal maxtor lxt-200s) for two and a half years. the disk recently crashed. i reformatted (silverlining 5.42), but during the reformat i received random write errors during testing. the error message reported was like: sector 0: write error detected after testing good - sector not mapped out. this occurred randomly all over the hard disk (which makes me suspect the diagnostic's reference to sector 0 ??? ). on the third reformat and after reinstalling the scsi read/write loops i was able to get through passes 2,3, and 4 with no errors. (pass 1 for some reason reported a lot of errors, but still mapped out no sectors.) i decided to go ahead and try to resinstall system 7 and reload my data from a backup. this proceded normally; however, i now have sub-optimal performance. symptoms include: o frequent crashes o instances of extremely sluggish disk access requiring a reboot to o instances of not finding the disk on the scsi chain on reboot. - if i boot from norton utl. after this occurs, it cannot find the disk either. - the only thing that fixes this is recycling the power. it sometimes requires several attempts. questions: 1) has anyone had this type of problem before? 2) is the problem with the fx motherboard (and its non-standard scsi implementation) or with my maxtor disk? is there some diagnostic software that would help me make this determination? 3) is it a termination problem? i currently have external syquest and an external dataframe xp60 on the chain. the xp60 is at the end, and has internal termination; so i am not using the iifx terminator. i do have the scsi filter installed on the internal drive. i have run with this exact steup for 2 1/2 years with one previous disk crash requiring a reformat (about a year ago). i also have symptoms if i disconnect the external devices; so i don't see how scsi termination would now be an issue. of course who knows :-< help would be much appreciated. forrest e. lumpkin iii nasa ames research center lumpkin@corvus.arc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51660">
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 we are doing heavy - duty image processing with some seriously underpowered mac's (mac iisi, for example). most of the cpu time is burned in doing fft's. what cards are out there which would allow us to take away that part of the load from the cpu? any dsp 56001 or i860 cards out there, for example? they'd have to be callable from think pascal, to replace the one - and two - dimensional fft's routines in an already existing program. check out the national instruments nb-dsp2300. this uses the texas instruments tms320c30 chip, which is a true 32 bit floating point dsp. it's pricey, however. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51663">
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 my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? the lc family of macs can only use pds cards. they are not able to use nubus. ah, but why? can some technically-hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus? is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage? at least, marvin's friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i. what is the fundamental reason for o~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/ - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap! / \ (_) (_) / | \ | | bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory \ / bitnet: higgins@fnal.bitnet - - internet: higgins@fnal.fnal.gov ~ span/hepnet: 43011::higgins 
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 i thnik i'll be able to pick up a piar of mac 512k's for nothing, but their power supplies are dead. anyone know where i can pick up a pair of refurbished ps's for cheap (preferably mail order). yes, i do have uses planned fior them. one will be sold to a friend who just needs a terminal to connect via modem to his e-mail account. the other will be used by me as a net client to run my downloads and/or also, what is the latest system software usable with these suckers? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51665">
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 i just got a duo 230, and i'm having some difficulties. if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter, put to sleep, unplugged from the wall, and woken up, it crashes 75% of the time. (there's nothing but the original system software on the machine.) the battery has plenty of life - i think this must be a power manager problem, but i don't know what to do about it. also, the speaker occasionally makes a high-pitched hiss. the noise is irregular, but seems to favor sleep and restart commands. i've had my duo 230 for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems. i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems - thinking they were system software problems. initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore. occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen - it freezes. i also get the high-pitched hiss occasionally - but only at i've called the apple hotline (800 sos-appl) three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo's screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep. this problem only occured twice. apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can't afford to be without my duo at this time. anyone out there with these same problems? brian cherkas * * bcherkas@netcom.com aol/brianc22 \_/ compuserve/71251,3253 netcom - online communication services san jose, ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51666">
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 its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position. if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position, it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical i'm not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or 6 months from now, but why take that chance? if you want more detailed info on the problem, i think the other replies sum up the fact that you can place a hard drive on its side. the point is this will only be sure to work on the 'new' drives, namely 1/3 ht lps drives that have a smaller platter and are also more stable. why should i take the chance? because i've been running a maxtor 1/3 ht 120 lps on both its side and flat for about a year and i've had no problems with it. period. like i always say, never trust the manufacturer. "just like everything else in life, the right lane ends in half a mile." ravi konchigeri. mongoose@leland.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51667">
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 there was a discussion a couple of weeks ago about using different cables to achieve different resolutions on the quadra and centris series. a company that sold the cables was mentioned. can someone please e-mail me the companies name, address, etc, and any other info that may be relevant? "just like everything else in life, the right lane ends in half a mile." ravi konchigeri. mongoose@leland.stanford.edu 
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 this is a test 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51670">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51670" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 ------ x-posted to comp.sys.mac.hardware and misc.consumers ------- you've heard about apple's great new customer "support" program. well, think again. sometimes the only real support out there is what apple computer users can give to each other. for another example, read on: in the march 15th issue of _macweek_, ric ford described a two-year effort by liam breck to document and bring to apple's attention a problem with certain defective mice. at random, the switches on these mice "stick" in the down position until clicked a second time, apparently regardless of the machine they are used with or the system software involved. most of the reported problem mice were manufactured in malaysia and have an fcc id of bcga65431. you'll recognize this "sticky button" symptom immediately if you have such a mouse: the problem is intermittent, but it's not subtle. liam breck recently gave up trying to document this problem, and instead suggested that people contact apple's customer assistance center directly (_macweek_ 4/5/93 p. 64). when i called apple on march 23rd and described my defective mouse, i was eventually given a case number (f83y) and told apple would replace this mouse even though it is a few months out of warranty. after waiting for three weeks, i called back today wondering where my new mouse was. this time, i was told that apple had decided the serial number on my mouse (mb13831fc25) is not within the (undisclosed) range apple is willing to replace, and there is nothing i can do about it. nothing, that is, unless enough people complain about this problem to make it worth apple's while to fix or replace the entire lot of defective mice. please, if you have one of these mice, i need your help! don't assume you know what causes the problem (there are _lots_ of theories) and start hacking around inside your hundred-dollar mouse. instead, let apple do it. please take five minutes to call apple right now at: united states 1-800-776-2333 canada 800-665-2775 uk and europe 33-1-49-01-49-01 australia 61-2-452-8000 japan and pacific 81-3-5411-8500 if the number isn't toll-free, call collect. describe the problem and ask for a replacement mouse. even if they refuse, insist that they register the details of your case, including your mouse's serial number. be firm. network managers and user-group leaders especially, please query your user bases. everyone ask your friends and colleagues. please don't send mail to me or post yet another "sticky-button" report, call apple directly! if enough victims take the trouble to report this well-known problem, apple will eventually be forced to respond. if apple continues to find it easy to stone-wall on this issue, don't expect them to offer support when the next, potentially more serious mac defect is uncovered. -- bill sloan 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51671">
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 hello all! for few past days i've been fighting to get my nec multisync 3d (predecessor of 3fg) to work properly with the internal video of mac with a vga-adapter (as described in dale adams' posting about quadra video) it works, only some minor interferences occur, small enough not to prevent any action on screen to be visible & clear. but because the scanrates & stuff of 3d are well enough for emulating apple 13" rgb, i first made an adapter, then got one fron the local distributor of nec. with both adapters i can get a picure, which looks excellent most of the time or every now and then. but with radical changes on screen (opening palettes, large windows etc.) there are major interferences in sync. the picture either tilts sideways or scrables up totally. even when it is clear, there are some "spiky" interferences on horizontal line alignment when accessing pull-downs etc. with the self-made adapter, almost identical to the vga one, only sense pins differ, it is sometimes impossible to even boot up with a picture clear enough to shut down from menu... with the adapter from nec, everything is well most of the time, but sometimes the picture tilts badly sideways or the sync is completely lost. but not nearly as often as with the self-made one. i know, with self made adapters there can always be interference, but with the one provided by nec... where's the source of this interference? i'll give you the pinouts of the whole mess, and i hope that you can, at least someone (please try =) figure out what could be the best pin assignment for nec 3d. i am going to make a completely new cable with maximum shieldings and isolations, as soon as someone figures out how the pins should be arranged, especially syncs and groundings. yes, i have checked that the monitor is not defective, it works perfectly well with all pc graphic adapters up to 1024x768 pixels and also atari 71hz monochrome, which i am using now with it. here are the pinouts & stuff: 15 pin mini d-sub (nec 3d) 15 pin d-sub (mac, at least quadra) 1 red video 1 red gnd 2 green video 2 red video 3 blue video 3 composite sync 4 gnd 4 sense 0 5 gnd 5 green video 6 red gnd 6 green gnd 7 green gnd 7 sense 1 8 blue gnd 8 nc 9 nc 9 blue video 10 gnd 10 sense 2 11 gnd 11 c.sync & v.sync gnd 12 nc 12 v.sync 13 h.sync 13 blue gnd 14 v.sync 14 h.sync gnd 15 nc 15 h.sync shell gnd shell gnd connection suggested by apple for vga/svga, sense pins changed to emulate apple 13" with multisync (my self-made adapter) multisync (15pin mini d-sub) mac (15pin d-sub) 1 ---------------------- 2 2 ---------------------- 5 3 ---------------------- 9 6 ---------------------- 1 7 ---------------------- 6 8 ---------------------- 13 10 ---------------------- 14 13 ---------------------- 15 14 ---------------------- 12 4 (sense0) grounded to 11 (sync gnd) connection measured from an adapter to make nec 3fg/4fg emulate apple 13" (adapter provided by nec representative) nec (15 mini) mac (15) 1 ----------------------- 2 2 ----------------------- 5 3 ----------------------- 9 4 ----------------------- shell gnd, 1, 4, 6, 13 5 ----------------------- same as above 6 ----------------------- same... 7 ----------------------- same... 8 ----------------------- same... 10 ----------------------- same... 11 ----------------------- same... 13 ----------------------- 3 14 * not connected! * well, i am waiting for your solutions... and thanks! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51675">
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 on an iso/ansi-standard 5.25" magneto-optical disc, how many sectors are there per track (or disc revolution), and how many tracks per jim frazier 73447.3113@compuserve.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51676">
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 can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms? i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another 2 years. i would like to add more memory, ie go from 5 mb to 17 mb. i know that i will need 4 x 4mb, 80ns or faster simms. which simms, 30 pin or 72 pin? would the simms i get today be usable in 2 years with a newer, more powerful system? any insight would be appreciated. rob sprecher rcs8@po.cwru.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51677">
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 if you have no friends, buy a 128 mb optical huh? if i buy a 128m optical, i might lose my friends? why - do they smell bad? and stop worrying about cartridge wear (bernoulli) or crashes (syquest) on a serious note, i have heard the tales about syquest failures. but i am curious about jon's comments on cartridge wear for the the bernoullis. can someone elaborate? is there a general consensus that the 128m opticals are the most reliable? i am mostly concerned about media failures, as opposed to drive mechanism failures. julian vrieslander neurobiology & behavior, mudd hall, cornell university, ithaca ny 14853 internet: eacj@theory.tc.cornell.edu bitnet: eacj@crnlthry uucp: ..cornell!batcomputer!eacj 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51681">
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 i am looking for ftp sites (where there are freewares or sharewares) for mac. it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites. any information is appreciated. f a q ! reference: newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system, comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.answers,news.answers sven :) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51684">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51684" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 attention: mac quadra owners: many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification. this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices, including ultra-modern devices. although i will not name the devices, since it is not their fault... that's fine, but would you name the "industy experts" so i can try to track this down? who knows... i just quoted what was "written" in scsi director... this doesn't sound right to me. don't quadras use the 53c96? if so, the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing. that's all handled by the yup. that's why i'm kinda curious... most scsi problems i've encountered are due to cabling. i've tried calling transoft corp about this and have either gotten the response "huh?" to "yep" to "nah"... you would expect that a damaging state- ment like this would have _some_ "data" to back it up... anyone want transoft's phone number? jim jagielski | "and he's gonna stiff me. so i say, jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov | 'hey! lama! how about something, nasa/gsfc, code 734.4 | you know, for the effort!'" greenbelt, md 20771 | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51685">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51685" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just got some simms, at least one of which does not work. i don't know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up. when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii, there would be a strange music and no display on the screen. why? i need your help! thanks in advance yih-tyng ytwu@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51687">
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 according to the (seen several times) postings from dale adams of apple computer, both the 610 and the 650 require 80ns simms - not 60 ns. only the centris 800 requires 60 ns simms. i think you meant quadra 800 ..... (but a centris 800 probably would be a real nice machine... :) ) but yeah, it needs 80ns not 60ns. joel siegel <jdsiegel@garnet.berkeley.edu jdsiegel@ocf.berkeley.edu> "i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is: i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -rebecca west, 1913 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51690">
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 hello fellow humans, and other net creatures... if you're at all interested in this merchandise, please e-mail me: djk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu i'm compacting my system and moving to a single monitor system, so i have two monitors and cards for sale. nothing at all is wrong with these pieces, i'm just wanting to conserve desk space, and get all of my info from one i'd prefer to sell to people near austin and surrounding areas (within driving distance - like an hour away perhaps), but i can ship to you if you don't live near here. only problem is that i didn't keep the original boxes for the monitors, but i'm confident that my few months of full-time service in the shipping room will enable me to safely package the monitors and flip it in your direction. details: mirror full page display (monochrome) w/nubus card: **sold** sony 1304 14" color monitor: what's to say? it got top ratings in last year's macuser report. it's a sony, trinitron, arguably the best (but i'd rather not argue that point). it's a great monitor, in great shape, but i'm going to a bigger screen, and although i'd like to keep it, finances don't justify it. still selling for $599 at macland (where i bought it originally - not including shipping), will sell for **$475** (plus shipping). again, make an offer if that sounds unreasonable. rasterops 24si (24-bit accelerated, hardware zoom/pan, 4 meg ram): renamed the 24sx a few months after i bought it, this board is for 13" monitors, providing **accelerated 24-bit**, hardware zoom/pan, ntsc mode (you can plug it into something like the rasterops video expander and output ntsc), and 4 ram slots that use 1 meg or 4 meg simms for gworld ram, or a ram disk. software included for such functions. 4 meg of ram included (1 meg simms). selling for $605 at bottom line (without the ram - add $100), i'm asking **$525** (shipping included this time, it's just a card). original box and packaging. i'd actually prefer to sell the sony monitor and this card together, so if you want both, drop me e-mail and make a "bundled offer" for these items. dan keldsen - djk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu dan keldsen | are you now, or have you ever been: djk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | a. a berklee college student? univ. of texas, austin | b. a member/fan of billy death? music composition, mm | c. a max programmer? m & m consultant (ask) | d. a think-c & midi programmer? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51693">
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 christiansen) says: has anyone out there in netland any experience with accelerators for se? i am specially interested in: - speed up rate (% or compared to e.g. se/30) - need for new simms (speed in ns) - maximum ram after upgrade - compatibility (i am mainly using framemaker) - can i use an additional, big b&w screen (15" to 21") - can i install the accellerator myself (no soldering) - price/where to buy i have no experience with this particular hardware, but just about every month in macworld there is an add for an combined se accelerator/video board. this item sells for about $1000 and comes with a 25mhz 68030/68882 pair, eight simm slots, and a grayscale 21" monitor. this accelerator plugs into the se's lone expansion port and thus no soldering. you will however, need a long torx wrench to get the case open (but that's not really a big deal). does that sound like what you were looking for? -----> jon jon carr -----> io91748@maine.maine.edu umaine '93 1993 ncaa champions! how about those 42-1-2 black bears!! m - a - i - n - e - go blue!!!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51695">
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 i am continuing to collect user results to produce a more comprehensive report on iisi clock oscillator upgrades. i you have attempted the modification please drop me a note with details of your experience. the more reports obtained, the more accurate the numbers i will generate. if possible, please include the following: 1) top speed achieved 2) system configuration at top mhz setting a) speed rating of the cpu (the last two digits printed on cpu #) b) presence of additional heat sinks c) nubus & fpu cards used d) floppy drive functionality on both 800 and 1.4 m disks 3) damage incurred during modification 4) damage due to higher speed use 5) average length of time the cpu is on. (i.e. 8 hours a day) 6) unusual other modifications to the usual procedure guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51707" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 patrickd@wpi.wpi.edu (lazer) writes ... i'd appreciate it greatly if someone could e-mail me the following: (if you only know one, that's fine) 1) specs for the 68040 (esp. how it compares to the pentium) specs for the 68040 can fill a 500 page book. some highlights are... 32-bit address space w/ 32-bit data width. 18 32-bit integer registers & 8 80-bit floating point registers. 8k copyback capable caches, 4-way set associative. typical 1.2 clocks/integer instruction. 5 clocks for a floating point multiply. (interesting aside: the 68040 can multiply two 80-bit floating point numbers in less time than it can multiply two 32-bit integers) 2) specs for the 68060 with estimated cost, release date, etc... more of the same but with multiple instruction dispatching. figure about 0.8 clocks per instruction typical (my guess). but the motorola guys are pretty bright, it may be less. i'm interested in speeds, systems it can run (windows nt, risc, or whatever), costs, bus info, register info. all the technical info. call motorola. i'm not typing it all in. i am hoping that the 68040 can win yet another battle against the intel people. i'm predicting that both the 680x0 and x86 lines are reaching their ends. new experimental processors have 64-bit data pathways and can schedule up to 8 out of 32 instructions each clock cycle. that sort of trick can't really be done with cisc architectures. i finally saw some details on the 586/pentium and was not greatly impressed. they've finally done some work on the fpu to get it up to speed, but otherwise it's only going to be a 2x speedup. and to get that they're using two integer units, larger caches, and a branch target buffer. yes, i know they're talking about 100mhz processors. big whoop. designing a 100mhz board is difficult and really expensive. priced 15ns memory chips lately? ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51708">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51708" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 dhk@ubbpc.uucp (dave kitabjian) writes ... i'm sure intel and motorola are competing neck-and-neck for crunch-power, but for a given clock speed, how do we rank the following (from 1st to 6th): 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 040 486 030 386 020 286 while you're at it, where will the following fit into the list: 060 fastest, then pentium, with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity. and about clock speed: does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed? and fill in the __'s below: 68030 @ __ mhz = 68040 @ __ mhz no. computer speed is only partly dependent of processor/clock speed. memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i/o speed. as processor clock rates go up, the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed. if you have a 50mhz processor, it can be reading another word from memory every 20ns. sure, you can put all 20ns memory in your computer, but it will cost 10 times as much as the slower 80ns simms. and roughly, the 68040 is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the 68030. ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51709">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51709" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : >>my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is : >>such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? : > the lc family of macs can only : > use pds cards. they are not able to use nubus. : ah, but why? can some technically-hip macslinger tell us what the : difference is between pds and nubus? : is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a : nubus card cage? at least, marvin's friend has not been able to : locate one and neither have i. what is the fundamental reason for : this? i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages (i'm sure i've seen them advertised occassionally), but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother. (of course, it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive...) nubus technology isn't a special apple proprietry thing (i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments???) so there is no problem building an expansion box. apple uses the ieee nubus-90 standard for their 32 bit backplane bus. (i got this from a technote that i reada couple of weeks ago) other stuff deleted<<<<<<<<< hope this helps, bret chase internet:bchase@wpi.wpi.edu macintosh! bellnet: (508) 791-3725 smile! it won't kill you! snailnet: wpi box 3129 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 100 institute rd. worcester, ma 01609-2280 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51710">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51710" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 the is a 3-4 week backorder, but they are shipping. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51711">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51711" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades (cards, hard drive, etc). can you tell me what the power limitations are for 1) the pds slot and 2) the hard drive power feed. secondly, can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each, or if instead, there is a single limit for both combined? please drop me a line if you know the answers to these questions. felix lin feilimau@leland.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51713">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51713" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i'm looking for the e_mail address of the caere corporation. their address is: caere corporation 100 cooper court los gatos califonia 95030 if you know the address o have access to find it. please could you send it to me. my e_mail address is: <zia@uk.ac.ed.castle> thanking you in advance, 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51716">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51716" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 anyone know what would cause my iicx to not turn on when i hit the keyboard switch? the one in the back of the machine doesn't work either... the only way i can turn it on is to unplug the machine for a few minutes, then plug it back in and hit the power switch in the back immediately... sometimes this doesn't even work for a long time... i remember hearing about this problem a long time ago, and that a logic board failure was mentioned as the source of the problem...is this true? t.j. pilon pilon@rpi.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51718">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51718" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just got some simms, at least one of which does not work. i don't know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up. when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii, there would be a strange music and no display on the screen. why? i need your help! thanks in advance yih-tyng ytwu@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu there is a shareware ramchecker that i think is called ramcheck. it is available at most ftp sites such as umich and sumex. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51720">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51720" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i've got a mac se, i've got a spare 1.44mb floppy drive. i've seen se's a 1.44 floppy drive. can i put my floppy drive into my se and get it to if so, how? thanks! | eric robison |disclaimer: i claim dis. | ericr@solbourne.com | | get me offa this &*^*&%&^# planet!! sure thing - you'll have to get an fdhd upgrade kit from apple, which includes a hd floppy drive, 2 different chips (the swim chip was mentioned in another post) and a different floppy drive cable. get the apple kit through your dealer. ** jim trascapoulos * jtrascap@nyx.du.edu * "what size id do you wear?" ** 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51722">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51722" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i've changed the battery in the thing (shortly after the problem first happened) and i've noticed an inordinate number of bus errors lately... t.j. pilon pilon@rpi.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51723">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51723" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i write: i recently got a zyxel u-1496e modem. it's great, but i'm still having some problems figuring out what strings to use in what applications. i basically need strings for z-term, firstclass client, and telefinder client. i've been able to get firstclass and z-term working by using another modem's settings in firstclass and copying them for z-term. however, it still has problems - z-term, for example, will list 'error' the first time i try dialing after starting the problem. if i cancel and try again, it works fine. telefinder is even worse - i can't get it to even wake up the modem. so, if anyone uses a zyxel for any of these programs, i'd greatly appreciate you sending me the setup strings you use thanks in advance! for zterm, i initially did the following: at&d0 at&w0 then i set my init string to atz0. that's it! i can't help you with firstclass or telefinder, but i've been using zterm and a zyxel for close to two weeks now. here's what i did: once in zterm, set hardware handshaking on and the bps rate to 57,600. (you've probably already done this.) then i typed: at&d0 at&w the first line sets the modem to ignore the dtr line (necessary for handshaking with most, though not all, mac hardware handshaking cables). second stores this setting in non-volatile memory in the modem, so it's the default when the modem starts. in the modem preferences dialog, i have the modem initialization string set to "at&z0^m", which just insures that the stored setting is used (useful if starting zterm after using something like fax software or macwoof, which change the settings in other ways). alternatively, you could leave the factory default the way it is and just the zterm initialization string to "at&d0^m", which would accomplish the thing if the modem is always on before you start zterm, and if other don't modify the settings. or "at&z0&d0^m" would work even if other modify the modem's settings. i do it the way i do because i sometimes to turn on the modem before launching zterm, and this way i'm assured of the correct dtr handling when the modem's powered up. after comparing the above strings with my at commands reference guide, i came up with: atz0l2n2x5&d0s11=50^m this is entered in the 'initialize' box on the 'modem preferences' in zterm. quick summary of each commmand: z0 - reset modem to user profile 0. l2 - speaker volume at 2 (fairly quiet) n2 - ring volume at 2 (fairly quiet) x5 - display connect info according to setting 5 (see manual) &d0 - assume dtr (computer) is always on s11=50 - dial speed at 50 (as fast as zyxel can handle) in firstclass, i used this same string, with the addition of s0=0 right before the s11 command, in the setup box. this disables the auto-answer function of the modem for firstclass. i based my modem setting on the supra 14.4fax, and just changed the above mentioned string. in telefinder, i based my setting on the zoom v42 - hh setting. i changed the 'modem initialization' string to the same one i used for firstclass, and everything seems to work fine. sorry it took so long to get this summary out. if someone wants to forward this to the /info-mac/reports directory at sumex-aim, it might save other newbie zyxel users like myself the trouble of setting up their strings, and also save the net some redundant messages. if anyone else has something to add, feel free. mlobbia@ucsd.edu /// marcus lobbia /// \\\ mlobbia@sdcc13.ucsd.edu \\\ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51725">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51725" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 here is the story: i have a network with 4 macs on localtalk. one of them has an ethernet card, and is currently connected to a next (don't laugh i got it for the price of a mac iisi). the next is connected to the internet over slip running on a 9600 baud modem. currently, we can telnet from the mac w/ ethernet to the next, and then telnet out again to the rest of the world. what we want to know is if there is some sort of hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs to the next via the ethernet mac. from what we have heard, air doesn't do the trick. software solutions would be good too, but my impression is that there aren't going to be any. our immediate interest is to be able to get to the next and telnet out again. the slip connection doesn't allow us to assign ip numbers to machines, so everyone shares that 1 number...oh well... thanks in advance. benjamin s. chuang/itd-css consultant/university of michigan:a2 benjamin.chuang@um.cc.umich.edu (consulting & referals here) bchuang@css.itd.umich.edu (unix and long messages here) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51726">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51726" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have an external hard drive i wish to use as startup disk. problem is, when i switch on the mac, it boots on the internal hd, but when i restart (warm boot) the mac, it boots from the external. how do i make it boot directly from the external ? please email replies if possible. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51727">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51727" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i remember running across an ad in the back of mac[user|world] a few years ago, for a nubus board that had umpteen simm slots, to be used to "recycle your old simms," when you upgraded memory. i don't remember who made this board, and i haven't seen it advertised in any of the latest mac magazines. it mentioned that it included software to make the simms on the board act like a ram disk. as someone who has simms he can't get rid of/use, but hates the waste, this sounds to me like a majorly good idea. does anyone out there know what board/company i'm talking about? are they still in business, or does anyone know where i can get a used one if they are no longer made? any help would be greatly appreciated. please e-mail me, to save net.bandwidth. | internet: cptnerd@digex.com | aol: cptnerd | compuserve: 70714,105 | consilio manuque otium cum dignitate credo quia absurdum est parturient montes nascetur ridiculus mus 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51729">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51729" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 if you get teh iivx ->c650 upgrade, does it include a new sticker to cover the iivx identifier with a centris 650 indetifier? i can't say for sure with the iivx -> c650 upgrade, but i wondered the same thing when i ordered my lc -> lc iii upgrade. turns out the "upgrade" is actually an entire cpu minus any disk drives. you pull the floppy and hard drives out of the old one, stick them in the new one, and you've got an lc iii. the iivx -> c650 may be the same thing. it might be something to look into for those people who are unhappy that apple only sells macs pre-packaged with the drives. of course, the price is quite a bit higher without the trade-in... (-brian cherkaue@ee.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51730">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51730" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i know that jet inc makes refills for the stylewriter and deskwriter ink jet cartridges in several colors....but are pre-filled cartridges in color available from anyone (or do i have to use-up one cartridge before i have a chance to print in color?) also, are inks in process colors (cyan, magenta, yellow) available to refill cartridges? thanks in advance.... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51731">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51731" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there, does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c650 regarding fpu? in all mac price lists i've seen, every c650 has the message "fpu: optional". i know from what we've discussed in this newsgroup that all c650 have the fpu built in except the 4/80 configuration. why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list? i'm planning to buy the c650 8/230/cd pretty soon, but i'm now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not. why say "optional" if it's built in? please, anybody help me understand this game. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51734">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51734" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 when the computer is set for 256 colors and certain operations are done, particularly vertical scrolling through a window, horizontal white lines appear on the monitor (which generally but not always spare open windows). these lines accummulate as the operation is continued. if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen. this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for 16 colors or a 14 inch apple monitor with 256 colors is used. i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain. the problem has been apparent since day 1 but has gotten worse. i'm having exactly the same problem. again, it's fine when i switch to 16 colors or a smaller monitor. my configuration is: model: centris 610 with 4 mb/80 hd, 512 vram, no cards monitor: mag mx15f with 16" monitor adaptor (for resolution of 832*624) i just discovered the problem a little while ago after plugging in my new mag monitor. it seems to appear either when scrolling through a window or when using alpha or word and i enter <return>. my guess is bad vrams as well. i really hope it isn't a design flaw. is anyone at apple listening? pushpinder singh push@media.mit.edu try finding an init called basic color monitor. this should clear up some probs with centris 610's and vga type monitors. i know it exists, somewhere i have a binhexed copy, but i don't know where and never got around to installing it. i have this problem on my sony 1604. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51735">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51735" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i believe it goes or will go: 286=680000 in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a 50mhz 030 accelerator was slightly slower than a 25mhz 040 accel. but, this is using a system designed for the 030. so, it stands to reason that a system designed for an 040 ie quadra) would do better. so overall i'd figure 040 = 030 * 2.5 or so. along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra, but system 8 or whatever will allow 3 times the speed of a 040 in the powerpc based systems. and wait for the 680060. i think it laps the pentium. pro-life pro-women michael ameres - internet: michael.ameres@f204.n2603.z1.fidonet.org 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51736">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51736" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 could someone please send instructions for installing simms and vram to jmk13@po.cwru.edu? he's just gotten his 700 and wants to drop in some extra simms and vram that he has for it. thanks... and don't reply to me, reply to jmk13@po.cwru.edu (joe) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51737">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51737" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have one of the original powerbook 170's (with 4mb of ram) and find that 4mb is a drag when trying to do my work. so, what is the best way to get the maximum ram for this unit, and what's it going to cost me? i'm hoping i can get the latest and best info from real users by posting to this group. well bill, there are 2mb soldered on the logic board and 2mb in the ram expansion slot giving you 4mb. the only thing you can do to upgrade to the maximum ram is to remove the 2mb expansion and install a 6mb expansion, giving you a total of 8mb which is the max on a 170....you can try calling techworks, or any other memory vendors out of macweek, macworld...etc.... peter haase + internet: haase@meediv.lanl.gov network manager + los alamos national laboratory 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51738">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51738" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a professor of mine once said "the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about $5000" meaning the engineer makes $5000 more than the cs. seriously though the main difference is that most cs people write programs that people will use, i.e. database, graphics, word processors, etc., while an engineer writes for machines or control systems, i.e. the "computer" in your car, a flight control system, computer controled devices, etc. in other words cs writes software while cse writes firmware. these are generalizations but for the most part that is what the difference is. p.s. the $5000 is not just a joke for the most part, this is a bunch of bunk. i've got a computer engineering degree, yet i've spent the last 7 years writing software that people actually use. moreover, the salary distinctions are incorrect; i received 3 job offers upon graduation; the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were $7000/year lower! my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you, and pick the major that allows you to take them. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51740">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51740" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i don't know about the instrutech boards (though i plan to check them out), but you need to be very careful checking the monotonicity and s/n ratio of many of the "16 bit" boards out there. the ni boards are very clearly specified in terms of monotonicity, s/n ratio, accuracy, etc; and the nb-a2100 and nb-a2150 have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you'd expect from a good, true 16 bit converter. this is not true for the spectral innovations boards, for example. to boorishly reply to myself, i found i did have the instrutech information already. the specs (to use the term loosely) are as follows: a/d: 16 bit converter, with 14 bit accuracy to 100 khz, 12 bit accuracy to 200 khz. no specs for s/n, monotonicity, linearity. there are 8 multiplexed inputs sharing the single a/d, so that all inputs are not samples at the same time, and in the above conversion specs the all-channel sample rate must be used. thus, for two channels, you only have 14 unknown quality bits at 50 khz per channel. this is poorer quality than the national instruments, at the same sample rate. d/a: 16 bit converter. no specs for s/n, monotonicity, linearity. each of the 4 output channels has its own converter. the price for the external converter box (the itc-16), the nubus interface board (the mac-23), plus c driver software and igor xop's is $2695. rather 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51745">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51745" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm sure intel and motorola are competing neck-and-neck for crunch-power, but for a given clock speed, how do we rank the following (from 1st to 6th): 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 not a good idea to compare processor power. doesn't make sense for real world applications. at least not for totally different lines of processors. while you're at it, where will the following fit into the list: and about clock speed: does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed? and fill in the __'s below: 68030 @ __ mhz = 68040 @ __ mhz at least for x86 systems doubling the clock speed increases performance by about 70% . thanks very much. i'd appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there, too! p.s. folks have been having trouble replying to me lately with the "reply" command. try typing my address by hand and it should work. thanks! dave kitabjian (kit-ahb'-jyin) vital statistics: stuff deleted ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate@uiuc.edu a pun is a no' blessed form of whit. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51747">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51747" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 dhk@ubbpc.uucp (dave kitabjian) writes ... i'm sure intel and motorola are competing neck-and-neck for crunch-power, but for a given clock speed, how do we rank the following (from 1st to 6th): 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 040 486 030 386 020 286 how about some numbers here? some kind of benchmark? if you want, let me start it - 486dx2-66 - 32 specint92, 16 specfp92 . while you're at it, where will the following fit into the list: 060 fastest, then pentium, with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity. numbers? pentium @66mhz - 65 specint92, 57 specfp92 . powerpc @66mhz - 50 specint92, 80 specfp92 . (note this is the 601) (alpha @150mhz - 74 specint92,126 specfp92 - just for comparison) and about clock speed: does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed? and fill in the __'s below: 68030 @ __ mhz = 68040 @ __ mhz no. computer speed is only partly dependent of processor/clock speed. memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i/o speed. as processor clock rates go up, the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed. if you have a 50mhz processor, it can be reading another word from memory every 20ns. sure, you can put all 20ns memory in your computer, but it will cost 10 times as much as the slower 80ns simms. not in a clock-doubled system. there isn't a doubling in performance, but it _is_ quite significant. maybe about a 70% increase in performance. besides, for 0 wait state performance, you'd need a cache anyway. i mean, who uses a processor that runs at the speed of 80ns simms? note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of 12.5 mhz. and roughly, the 68040 is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the 68030. ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate@uiuc.edu a pun is a no' blessed form of whit. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51749">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51749" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 this is turning into a faq here is how to violate your quadra 700 warranty and install your own 1) insert usual disclaimer here 2) remove the top lid of the machine. you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower. follow the usual anti-static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this. unplug the wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac. 3) remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up. the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply. you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply. leave that alone. the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release. 4) look at the rear of the tower assembly. you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive, a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive. disconnect all these from the motherboard. the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it. 5) unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount 6) look down the posterior, cylindrical section of the plastic tower. a phillips head screw is at the base. remove it, taking care not to drop it into the case. a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful 7) remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower. this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly. slide the entire tower assembly 1 cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case. 8) congratulations, you have now gained access to your machine's simm 9) the six big slots are for vram. one usually must install all six to gain useful video modes. all simms (ram or vram) installed with their chips facing the front of the motherboard. the four smaller sockets in front are for ram simms. install simms in sets of four into these sockets. be sure you seat the simms squarely and firmly into a fully upright position. 10) reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about 1 cm posterior of its intended position. lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case. once fully down, slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place. 11) reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables. dont't forget the floppy drive cable. 12) replace the phillips head screw 13) drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in. 14) plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51750">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51750" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just got a duo 230, and i'm having some difficulties. if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter, put to sleep, unplugged from the wall, and woken up, it crashes 75% of the time. (there's nothing but the original system software on the machine.) the battery has plenty of life - i think this must be a power manager problem, but i don't know what to do about it. also, the speaker occasionally makes a high-pitched hiss. the noise is irregular, but seems to favor sleep and restart commands. i've had my duo 230 for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems. i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems - thinking they were system software problems. initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore. occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen - it freezes. i also get the high-pitched hiss occasionally - but only at i've called the apple hotline (800 sos-appl) three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo's screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep. this problem only occured twice. apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can't afford to be without my duo at this time. anyone out there with these same problems? brian cherkas * * bcherkas@netcom.com aol/brianc22 \_/ compuserve/71251,3253 netcom - online communication services san jose, ca yes, quite a number of people it seems from discussions i've had (me included). i bought my machine a couple of weeks ago as well and started to experience these problems. apple australia via my dealer said that this problem has a number of potential causes - faulty applications, faulty third party hardware (modems, memory etc), system software, pram corruption and power manager corruption, and the duo hardware itself. none of the above are relevant in my case except the last two maybe (no applications were running, the system software was re-installed, i have no additional hardware). i have found that clearing pram appears to help for a while at least (hold down command option p and r on startup). unfortunately the problem returns suggesting that pram is being corrupted by something (system software bug ? - i don't have any non-issue inits in my system). apparently the power manager can be reset by "holding the reset and interrupt buttons while powering up" - apple's advice - but since the duo does not have an interrupt button i'm not sure what they mean in this case. this may also help if someone can decipher apple's advice for me. beyond this apple suggest that " you should follow the technical procedures to check the hardware of this duo". since so many others appear to be having the same problem it would seem to me that there has been a system software bug introduced somewhere along the line - and quite recently too - since it only seems to be recent duo 230 purchasers who have this problem. any more comments from others in the same boat are welcome, particularly apple duo engineers :-) bruce tulloch sydney australia - brucet@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ***complex problems have straight forward, easy to understand wrong answers*** 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51754">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51754" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 be very careful when you plug in a external monitor and a external speaker. make sure that all the power cords are in the same strip. if you don't you take a chance of having a very bad audio buzz. this is caused be a "ground loop" and the only way of getting rid of this loud buzz is to make sure that you have a common ground. make sure that all the power cords are going in to the same strip or off the same outlet. this will assure you of a common ground. tim keanini sound designer <timk@broder.com> broderbund software <blast@crl.com> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51762">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51762" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 tests suck! post a real message! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51763">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51763" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 the subject line says it all. my system acts weird at times. all of a sudden the system will be corrupt, boot blocks will get chewed, etc. this was a really big problem for a while. i couldn't even format my drive properly. i installed hdt's driver and things got better. now all i have to do is reinstall the system. could an incompatibility exist between it and a quantum external drive. i'm looking for a pure hardware solution. it's not a virus, bad software, etc. could i have a bad scsi cable? or is the ibm (wds-80) just a screwey drive? chuck williams ==> cs intern ==> pacific northwest laboratories da228@cleveland.freenet.edu cg_williams@ccmail.pnl.gov 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51764">
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 [... stuff deleted] besides, for 0 wait state performance, you'd need a cache anyway. i mean, who uses a processor that runs at the speed of 80ns simms? note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of 12.5 mhz. [more stuff deleted...] how do you calculate that figure? i'd assume even in personal computers the board designers would use bank switching to (optimistically) quadruple the access speed or am i missing something here? the previous article referred to the fact that you could only use 20ns simms in a 50mhz machine, but that you could use 80ns simms in slower machines. i just pointed out that if you could only use 20ns simms in a 50mhz machine, you can't use 80ns simms in anything faster than a 12.5 mhz machine. bank switching and caches were not considered in either example (although both would help memory access). ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate@uiuc.edu a pun is a no' blessed form of whit. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51767">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51767" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 dear netters, my sister has an apple 12" color display hooked up to an lc. problem: there is an annoying, horizontal, ghost-like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second. it is about 1 cm high. she is in grave danger of going insane because of it. any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her? -joe betts betts@netcom.com ps: if i pick up the display (i thought it might be rfi from the lc) it seems to get worse! this can be caused by two one of two things. the first and easiest to fix is interference from something around the monitor, such as another monitor or other electrical device. try moving the system to another location to fix that problem. second, because of the scan rate of the monitor, it tends to synchronize with room lights and can cause the interference you are seeing. try turning off all lights in the room(s) around the system and see if that helps. if not, try moving the system somewhere else. a third solution would be to get a 14" apple color display - it should not have the same problem the 12" color is more suceptible to. you can try calling apple's new support number (in the u.s.) at 1-800-sos-apple. this number is for anyone who has questions regarding macintosh setup and compatibility and just went into effect for this extended support on monday, april 5, 1993. good luck - kevin lohman, buyer, university book store university of washington, seattle apple computers for education program 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51768">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51768" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 if such a device exists, are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use? how many nubus slots do you have? applied engineering has something called the quadralink, which is a card with 4 serial ports that you get at through the comms toolbox (in addition to the built-in ones) it also comes with software for fooling applications to open an ae port when they think they open a built-in port. they also have a more expensive card with dma (better performance) and i _think_ they, or someone else, have a card that handles 8 ports simultaneously. as i said, with nubus, you're green. learn how to use the comms resource manager to get at the various installed cards. / h+ -- jon w{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, mac hacker deluxe -- "you never hide the menu bar. you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background, but you never hide the menu bar." -- tog 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51769">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51769" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone know if a nanao 750i is compatible with any popular mac video cards? i have an oppurtunity to get a brand new one, cheap, and i am very tempted, but it will be a waste of time if i can't drive it using a standard video card. while i'm on the subject, what's everybody's reccomendations for a 21" color monitor. i've heard good things about the nec 6fg, and of course, there is always the reliable old macintosh 21" display, but what are your experiences. david j harr cyberpunk software. "my definition of happiness is being famous for your financial ability to indulge in every form of excess." -- calvin 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51773">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51773" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi. i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra 900, but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook 170. any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated. when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system, the following types of sounds (mono, as far as i can tell) all play fine through both speakers: system beeps (already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record) armor alley spaceward ho! but, the following games only play out of the left channel: out of this world (awesome game, btw) glider 4.0 but still, stereo system beeps do play in stereo, through both speakers. (the one i'm specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning, which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site (sumex?)) all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates 170 (he can't run ootw because he doesn't have color). we're both running system 7.1 does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class, quadra, lc, powerbook 140 or greater, centris, se/30, etc... (stereo) machine? i used to have a mac ii, and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine, not just on the left channel. (i could be mistaken, though. if there were a problem with the quad 900's and pb 170's, i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo? if there isn't a problem with our machines, i wonder why the 4 games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers (like spectre, etc. do)? quadra 900's and powerbook 170's have the same roms (to my knowledge), so maybe this is a rom problem? (if so, though, why wouldn't system 7.1 patch over this problem?) thanks for any help you can provide! doug book dpb@sdchemw2.ucsd.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51778">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51778" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 is it possible, ie via creative cable splicing or whatever, to hook a syquest 44mb removable drive to a mac? is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences? rob sprecher rcs8@po.cwru.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51779">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51779" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo. he is leaning towards a 180, because of the math coprocessor (for mathematica), but would get a duo if he could find a mini-dock with a coprocessor. have any third-parties announced such a beast? i believe that e-machines might produce something of this nature. jonathan heiliger .... electric power research institute m/m & visualization integrator ....... 3412 hillview ave. internet: jonathan@mecca.epri.com ........ palo alto, ca telephone <*> [415].855.2888 ..................... 94303 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51780">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51780" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just bought a select 300 and rushed home to print some grayscale pictures for my kids, when i discovered that grayscale(and photograde) are not available if you are using an se...even if you are running with an '030 cpu. you won't see this in the printer's docs, and the apple rep didn't mention it to our users group either. it seems that se roms won't support those "features". okay, i guess i should have somehow known that this was the case. let the buyer beware, huh apple? be that as it may, i have been thinking about the problem and i'm puzzled. why can't a defencieny in the rom be made up for in software. i write software for a living (on unix platforms) and i don't understand the "it just can't be done" responses i've gotten from those i have asked so far. isn't mode32, or somesuch piece of soft- ware, just such a fix. anyway, i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight: is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale, or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro- gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom's capabilities? also, how does one know if one's mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select 300 is supposedly capable of? ( short of buying the printer and trying it out like i did) thanks for your help. bill wright wgw@netcom.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51782">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51782" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 it's my understanding that, when you format a magneto-optical disc, (1) the formatting software installs a driver on the disc, (2) if you insert the disc in a different drive, then this driver is loaded into the computer's memory and then controls the drive, and (3) if this driver is incompatible with the drive, then the disc can not be mounted and/or properly read/written is that correct? jim frazier 73447.3113@compuserve.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51784">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51784" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in any leads would be most appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51785">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51785" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot? the lc family of macs can only use pds cards. they are not able to use nubus. ah, but why? can some technically-hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus? is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage? at least, marvin's friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i. what is the fundamental reason for o~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/ - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap! / \ (_) (_) / | \ | | bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory \ / bitnet: higgins@fnal.bitnet - - internet: higgins@fnal.fnal.gov ~ span/hepnet: 43011::higgins second wave makes nubus card cages that work on the pds slots of at least three macs: the se/30, iisi and centris 610. they have not, to my knowledge, announced such a device for the lcii, but they could make one, technologically. the pds card that goes to the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present on nubus macs. why, though, does anyone care about this? dgr has a three-pds adapter for the lc/lcii. they will soon have one for the lciii. pds is better than nubus for most people in most applications. granted, there are more nubus cards. but, most applications that require a nubus card (like full-motion video capture) shouldn't be done on an lc/lcii/lciii anyway. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51786">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51786" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 anyway, i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight: is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale, or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro- gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom's capabilities? to use the grayscale features, i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw. i was told this somewhere or other, but it's not mentioned in "apple facts" (guide for apple sellers), in the press release or in the technical specs. i think you will find that the mac se can print grayscale images, loaded with the proper software. however, the mac se cannot display grayscale on its screen or any attached video because that ability is not in the rom. so, while you might be able to print grayscale, you'd have a hard time seeing the grayscale image you want to print. this signature under construction wyvern technologies | tidewater's premier online information system | (804) 627-1818, login guest, password guest to register 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51787">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51787" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a friend asked me to build a cable to connect an hp fetal heart monitor to a maciontosh (se/30). no problem, sez i. i wanted to demo it on my pb 170, it won't work! the pb has been used running zterm and kermit using both internal and external modems; so i don't think it's the powerbook per se. when i send a "^51" to the hp it responds with "^55^aa" -- a test of the serial ports. it works on the se/30; but not on the pb170. i thought that the se/30 is connected to earth ground and so is the hp. so i connected from the chassis of the hp to the pw audio (ground) connector; still any thoughts? battery powered devices like the powerbook are sometimes more sensitive to serial port weirdness. i had trouble with connecting my mac plus to an hp 95lx handheld. everything else worked okay on that port, but not the hp. (it runs on two penlite batteries). it turned out that the plus (by accident or by design flaw?) was putting a 4 volt bias on the serial port that was doing weird things to the hp (which has only 3v dc!). the hp worked fine when connected to the printer port. does your pb screen get dim or anything when connected to the device? have you tried using the printer port? good luck. --jamie jamie cox jcox@ess.harris.com | phone: 1 407 633 5757 (work) harris space systems corp. | 1 407 723 7935 (home) ms rock-2, 295 barnes blvd. |the macintosh meeting and drinking society rockledge, florida usa | "speaking only for myself." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51788">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51788" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 |> hi. i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor. |> i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip. |> is this true? i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds |> slot. is that true? |> thanks |> david mirsky |> mirsky@gnu.ai.mit.edu well, i also have an lc iii. popping the top revealed: one "socket" for an additional vram simm one "socket" for a 72-pin ram simm one socket for a flat-pack fpu a processor-direct slot (pds) identical to the lc/lc ii, but with an additional set of connetions to one side (for the full 32-bit data path that the lc/lc ii lacked that's it. i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds, but that's the only place. so, will it be possible to have a nubus or pds powerpc upgrade, or will it require a logic board swap? it would be interesting for apple to come out with a nubus powerpc that allowed use of the cpu's 680x0, like rocketshare. but i guess that's getting a bit fantastic! i was wondering, since macweek reported that developers were 'seeded' with powerpcs on a nubus card. also, any word on machine arrivals or estimated speed? last i heard, the estimates were around 3-4 times the speed of a quadra in native risc mode. i heard an apple employee mumble something about the arrival of powerpc machines at a much earlier date that q1 94, but i doubt it's true. finally, is the powerpc developer's cd 'mini-course' available? i saw it advertised in the developer's university calendar, and i'd like to know if it's at all *interesting*. seanmcd@ac.dal.ca radius speculated, publicly, that they could provide a powerpc-based rocket for existing macs. it would have the plus of rocketshare and the minus of nubus accelerators - no true boot off the accelerator, nubus bottleneck to video and other i/o. apple, it seems, will not compete with third parties here -- except perhaps for not-yet-available macs like cyclone, where a powerpc slot might be advertised. look for daystar and such to make powerpc one potential problem with any accelerator, though, is that it will need a rom companion and apple has licensed only radius, with rocketshare, to use any of its proprietary code. apple is, between the lines, trying to let us know that powerpc macs will have simplified logic boards due to the magical nature of risc and that these boards should be much cheaper to build than those in existing 68040 macs. perhaps, then, we'll see groundbreaking prices in mac-logic board upgrades, much the same way we've seen much cheaper high-performance cpus this year. first generation powerpcs, 98601s, will also hopefully have socketed cpus so that they'll be chip upgradeable to 98604s a year later. this should be possible in much the same way that 486s can be pulled for clock doublers. if there is too much technical baggage (which i doubt since the external busses are the same size/width) to do this, perhaps we can have cpu daughterboard, a la powerbook, as standard to facilitate better cpu upgrades. this is an area where apple has fallen far behing the intel-based world. perhaps catchup is in order. by the way, last week's pc week had an excellent story on powerpc, pentium, mips r4000, dec alpha (the big four on the microprocessor front for the forseeable future). worth reading for technojunkies. also, the latest pc has a cover story on pentium. read it, and all the other stories about how intel is unstoppable and preeminent right now. once anyone is this secure, they are due to fall. intel's market position will never again be as dominant as it is today (especially if amd gets the go ahead to sell its 486s this week as it appears it might). the competition from all fronts is gearing up for an awesome battle. apple users should be excited that powerpc, while not guaranteed dominance, is a guaranteed winner, even if its one of 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51791">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51791" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does one exist, who makes it, and how much? thanks:) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51792">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51792" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 is it possible, ie via creative cable splicing or whatever, to hook a syquest 44mb removable drive to a mac? is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences? their should be no difference in the drive itself between ibm-pc and mac. the two main differences are the formatting of the disk itself (but with the correct software each can read the others) and maybe the cable (depends on your scsi board on ibm-pc). if you get some mac softawre to allow mounting of any ibm-formatted disk and the correct cable you should br able to mount and read your ibm-pc good luck, --paul | paul hardwick | technical consulting | internet: hardwick@panix.com | | p.o. box 1482 | for mvs (sp/xa/esa) | voice: (212) 535-0998 | | ny, ny 10274 | and 3rd party addons | fax: (212) pending | | paul hardwick | technical consulting | internet: hardwick@panix.com | | p.o. box 1482 | for mvs (sp/xa/esa) | voice: (212) 535-0998 | | ny, ny 10274 | and 3rd party addons | fax: (212) pending | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51796">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51796" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi everyone. i recently posted about how i received a bad vram chip for my new lciii, and someone responded that it may not actually be bad, but it may be a 512k lc vram chip, and thus doesn't work properly with my computer. so i'm wondering if anyone can interpret these codes for me, so i can figure out what type of chip macconnection sent me. each chip says: m518121a-80j on the back of the card, it says 0593 i believe from the numbers that means it is an 80ns chip, but i can't figure out what the size is supposed to be. if anyone can help, i'd be grateful. please email me your response. thanks a lot! hillel sims ----- simsh@rpi.edu ----- rensselaer polytechnic institute "is rot13 rotated 13 forward or backward?" --anonymous 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51797">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51797" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 dear netters, my sister has an apple 12" color display hooked up to an lc. problem: there is an annoying, horizontal, ghost-like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second. it is about 1 cm high. she is in grave danger of going insane because of it. any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her? -joe betts betts@netcom.com ps: if i pick up the display (i thought it might be rfi from the lc) it seems to get worse! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51799">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51799" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 please could someone in the us give me the current street prices on the following, with and without any relevant taxes: 8 mb 72 pin simm 16 mb 72 pin simm (both for mac lc iii) are any tax refunds possible if they are to be exported to the uk? can you recommend a reliable supplier? as i am posting this from a friend's account, please reply direct to me at: s.fraser@ic.ac.uk thanks in advance for any help :^) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51800">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51800" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i would like more info on this if anybody has it. our exabyte 8500 tapedrive has never been working from the quadra 950. we have been trying it since september 1992, replaced cabling, inits, i don't know what all. all the "industry experts" we phoned (the tapedrive dealer, our apple dealer, the software dealer) all say it's our fault, or they don't know. the last thing they said was that we needed a special quadra scsi terminator (???). anybody know more? thanks, katinka van der linden <katinka@fenk.wau.nl> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51802">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51802" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 some kind soul told me that i could change the serial port buffer size of zterm via resedit. he did not tell me how i could change it using resedit, and i have lost his e-mail address. could he or any one else please tell me what to do? i assume that the relevant resource is zset, but i do not know, and i have no template for that resource. if you have a tmpl for the correct resource, i would be grateful to receive it. that way, i could play around a bit and maybe get my duo to do something useful with its serial port. (other than appletalk). btw, i believe that when the port stats says that maximum in buffer is 3074 bytes, that that means increasing the buffer will help, if you are using hardware handshaking. i can cram text data pretty fast into my duo, and can monitor that cts is being lowered, but the buffer never gets beyond 3074 (out of 4096) bytes. makes sense to me. scott petrack petrack@haifasc3.vnet.ibm.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51803">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51803" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i seem to be having some trouble with this... i can get the mac to go to sleep, but i can't make seem to make it wake up with setwutime(). i am aware of the error in the header files and im vi. i am setting the wu time to be about two minutes, then putting the mac to sleep, but it doesn't wakeup at the appointed time.... does it require a call to systemtask in order to make sure that everything is setup? andrew e. page (warrior poet) | decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant | the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology | and what we want to be. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51805">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51805" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> >i don't know about the specific problem mentioned in your |> >message, but i definitely had scsi problems between my |> >q700 and my venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge |> >drives. my solution was to get silverlining. none of |> >the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives; |> >in fact the only loop that worked was the "macintosh |> >software" loop (whatever that means). |> i doubt this is a quadra-specific problem. i had to get |> rid of my "venerable" bernoulli 20 last year (with enough |> cartridges purchased at ~$90 each to make the whole thing |> worth more than my whole computer ;). the tech support guys |> at ocean microsystems suggested that some third-party drivers |> might fix the problem - in my case the cartridges wouldn't |> format/mount/partition for a/ux. all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook 140. it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra. even with the quadra, they mostly worked ok. the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive: it would start popping up dialog boxes saying "this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware" even though there was no cartridge in the drive. --mark 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51809">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51809" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking for recommendations/experiences of bringing macintosh cpus onto token-ring nets. can someone point me in the right direction for thanks in advance. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51811">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51811" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard, |> but it seems that the 'b' is placed on the left part after the split. |> however, when i learned typing in school some years ago, i was taught |> to write 'b' with my right hand. is this a difference between danish |> and american typing, or what??? |> thanks a lot in advance! in germany you usually use the left hand for the 'b' frank probul emanuelstr. 17, d-8000 munich 40, germany applelink: probul.f@applelink.apple.com internet: probulf@informatik.tu-muenchen.de munich university of technology department of computer science 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51819">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51819" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 tests suck! post a real message! presumably erme maula is testing the size limits of his email account. that's erme@pobox.upenn.edu for those who missed it. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51820">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51820" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 when the computer is set for 256 colors and certain operations are done, particularly vertical scrolling through a window, horizontal white lines appear on the monitor (which generally but not always spare open windows). these lines accummulate as the operation is continued. if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen. this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for 16 colors or a 14 inch apple monitor with 256 colors is used. i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain. the problem has been apparent since day 1 but has gotten worse. has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations? (that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation) as a data point, i'm using a centris 610 4/80 with the apple 16" monitor and do not have these problems. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51821">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51821" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms? sure. i can give is a shot... i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another 2 years. i would like to add more memory, ie go from 5 mb to 17 mb. i know that i will need 4 x 4mb, 80ns or faster simms. which simms, 30 pin or 72 pin? you need to get the 30-pin simms. would the simms i get today be usable in 2 years with a newer, more powerful system? if you mean in a "newer, more powerful" mac system then the answer is no. apple has stated that all new macs will use the 72-pin simms and no longer use the 30-pin simms. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51822">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51822" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c650 regarding fpu? in all mac price lists i've seen, every c650 has the message "fpu: optional". i know from what we've discussed in this newsgroup that all c650 have the fpu built in except the 4/80 configuration. why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list? i think this is mostly the fault of the people who write up the literature and price lists being confused themselves. since there are two possible processor configurations and one of the them doesn't have an fpu it does seem to be an option, even though it really isn't. i'm planning to buy the c650 8/230/cd pretty soon, but i'm now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not. well, then allow me to end your confusion. the c650 only come with an lc040 in the base 4/80 configuration. if you are not getting this configuration then you are getting an fpu. why say "optional" if it's built in? good question. i have been wondering that since feb. 10th. if you get the centris 650 with cd configuration, you are getting a mac with a 68rc040 processor that has built-in math coprocessor support. my understanding is that the "optional fpu" refers to your option of purchasing the centris 650 4/80 without fpu or one of the other configurations with fpu. this is possible, but an option is something that you are supposed to be able to request when you want it. what apple has done is given the buyer a choice between configurations and not an option. apple does not offer an upgrade from the non-fpu system to become an fpu system. and, it is unclear whether the '040 processor on the non-fpu system (a 68lc040) can be replaced with a 68rc040 supplied by another vendor. this is not unclear at all. in fact apple has included in the roms of those machines with lc040s code to recognize the presence of the full 040's fpu and use it. thereby making the upgrade as easy as switching chips. you pop the lc040 out and pop in a full '040. apple did send a memo out at one point sating that the centris 610, which only comes with a non-fpu 68lc040 processor cannot be upgraded to support an fpu - the pin configurations of the two chips apparently do not match so you cannot swap one for another (again, according to apple's memo). they did? i think i would double-check this. it has been stated countless times in this newsgroup by two of the centris hardware designers that the lc040 and the full '040 are pin compatible and that the c610 can be upgraded to a full '040. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51827">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51827" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a 8 meg 72-pin simm for my centris 610. where is the best place to purchase one (stock, shipping, warrenty), and if possible, phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible. "and hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space" monty python " 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth" the meaning of life steven medley email to-> smedley@erasure.ecst.csuchico.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51829">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51829" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my company has developed an application for the mac that emulates a chart recorder - virtual pen traces scroll smoothly across the screen. as we tested the application on a number of computers we discovered some surprising performance differences across products. the scroll performance of the iisi and lcii was better than the iifx. this led us to investigate color quickdraw performance across the apple line. the results: the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the (drumroll please) lciii. and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line. the centris line pales in comparison. does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics/processor performance? dave steele (daves@xetron.com) (513)881-3330 xetron corp. 40 w. crescentville road cincinnati, ohio 45246 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51831">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51831" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> however, when i learned typing in school some years ago, i was taught |> to write 'b' with my right hand. is this a difference between danish |> and american typing, or what??? in germany you usually use the left hand for the 'b' same in sweden (the ergonomic keyboard is great, but! the palm rests do not fix to the keyboard; they just sort of rests against the table. too bad when you have the keyboard in your knee... / h+ -- jon w{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, mac hacker deluxe -- "you never hide the menu bar. you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background, but you never hide the menu bar." -- tog 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51832">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51832" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've seen the following problem om three mac iisi machines all with 17 mb ram installed (70 or 80 ns simms). if the contents of a window are being calculated and updated a lot of strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated on the screen. the lines translate to the top of the screen and have a slightly lower brightness than their surroundings (they are a few millimeters apart). i admit that they are vague, but they can still be distinguished clearly, especially if the environment (i.e. the rest of the room) is a bit dark. applications which produce this effect are: - the previewer of directtex 1.2 (i.e. dvireader 1.2) - kaleidagraph 2.1.1/fpu another program which produces this effect is: - spyglass transform 2.1 (while contouring a big 257*257 array). thanks for any information about this problem, fred walsteijn | internet: walsteyn@fys.ruu.nl institute for marine and atmospheric research | fax: 31-30-543163 utrecht university, the netherlands | phone: 31-30-533169 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51835">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51835" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi! a while back, there was a thread in this group about the use of the iwii in europe (in countries with 50 hz ac current). the consensus at the time was that the iwii would not work there. as i will be moving there this summer, i called apple to make sure and they told me (today) that the iwii (as bought in the u.s.) will definitely run on 50 hz ac current (as long as a step-down converter is employed if 240 v current is used). the same info, turns out, can be found in the iwii manual (p. 127 in the 1989 version), but i didn't really trust that. does anyone have any direct experience to the contrary? just chris w. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51836">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51836" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i would really like to get one of the new cd300i cdrom drives for my c650, but my local apple doesn't know when they will be available. he doesn't even have a part number yet. does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available? my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd300 external drives, but i don't want to pay extra for a case/power supply i'm not going to use. -rodney jacks (rjacks@austlcm.sps.mot.com) the cd300 (external) is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now. demand for the units are high, so they are pretty rare. i've seen them listed for around $525-550 at local computer stores and the campus mac reseller. i've also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd's, but i can't confirm it. sunny ===>sunnyt@dna.bchs.uh.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51841">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51841" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a strange piece of equipment to unload. it is a ether+ scsi interface. apparently, it can be plugged into a scsi port and from there to an ethernet. that way you save a slot. nifty. well, i assume you people know more about it, so, judging by the $350 price tag new, i'll ask, say, $75? anybody interested? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51844">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51844" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone have a version of "which mac do i buy?" that is later than v 1.3.1? i no longer have access the ziffnet/mac, accessed through compuserve, to check for myself. "which mac..." is a hypercard stack that assists in decision making based on budget, features, and main software used. please let me know if you can help me out. download from compuserve should not cost much if a higher speed modem is used. stack, compressed, is about 125kb? thanks for any help... carsona@sfu.ca 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51845">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51845" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm in the market for a laser printer. used printers are fine, non-apple printers are fine, but whatever printer i get must fit the following: required features: - 300 dpi - emough memory to download fonts - the cheaper, the better. i'd prefer under $1000. nice things: - anything over 4 pages per minute - scsi output for a font disk - smallish footprint don't care about: - postscript level ii - networking (its just for me, and always will be) i know about freedom of press, but i've also heard that its painfully slow. i can tolerate about 4 ppm, but anything slower than that and i'm not going to consider the price savings worth it. i'd be curious to hear people's experience with it, tho. i also infinitely prefer laser over ink; i used to use hp deskjets in my last job and wasn't impressed with the quality. i'm a laser bigot and the first to admit it. :) i'll be using the printer to layout pages of a book i'm writing. the page will include multiple fonts, ps graphics, scanned line art and maybe greyscale pictures (not sure yet). the quality doesn't need to be spectacular, but it needs to be clear and readable. printers i've been looking at: - used laserwriters: the plus, the nt, the ntr. its my understanding that only the ntr has a scsi out for a disk. true? - personal laserwriter (ls and ntr). i have access to the apple employee discount (i work for one of apple's spinoffs), so i can get these reasonably cheaply. i've heard bad things about the ls; comments? i'm leaning towards the personal ntr, cause it has a nice small footprint. - laserwriter select 300. i hear it doesn't have postscript, but i haven't seen anything for sure. i heard mumbles once about a "postscript upgrade." - used hp laserjets. i've worked with the ii and iip on another platform, and they were *painfully* slow. are they that bad on the mac? - i've seen ads for an epson ps laserprinter that is running quite cheap. any comments on this printer? i hate the styling (too many ouput trays), but if its a decent printer i'll consider it. thanks for any comments... laura lemay lemay@netcom.com writer of trifles in shadows and blood 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51846">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51846" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi. i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra 900, but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook 170. any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated. when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system, the following types of sounds (mono, as far as i can tell) all play fine through both speakers: system beeps (already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record) armor alley spaceward ho! but, the following games only play out of the left channel: out of this world (awesome game, btw) glider 4.0 but still, stereo system beeps do play in stereo, through both speakers. (the one i'm specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning, which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site (sumex?)) all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates 170 (he can't run ootw because he doesn't have color). we're both running system 7.1 does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class, quadra, lc, powerbook 140 greater, centris, se/30, etc... (stereo) machine? i used to have a mac ii, and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine, not just on the left channel. (i could be mistaken, though. if there were a problem with the quad 900's and pb 170's, i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo? if isn't a problem with our machines, i wonder why the 4 games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers (like spectre, etc. do)? quadra 900's and powerbook 170's have the same roms (to my knowledge), so maybe this is a rom problem? (if so, though, why wouldn't system 7.1 patch over this problem?) thanks for any help you can provide! mac sound hardware is diverse; some macs play in stereo and mix the output (the se/30 for instance) while others play in stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker, while some are "truly" mono (like the lc) developers know that stuff played in the left channel is guaranteed to be heard, while the right channel isn't. some send data to both, some only send data to the left channel (the first is preferrable, of course) okay, i guess its time for a quick explanation of mac sound. the original documentation for the sound hardware (im-3) documents how to make sound by directly accessing hardware. basically, you jam values into all the even bytes from soundbase to soundbase+0x170. this was of how the mac 128 (and some later machines) generated sound was by this block and d/aing every even byte (the odd bytes went to the floppy on some machines). when the mac ii (and apple sound chip) was invented, it was designed to generate stereo sound. it was also designed to be compatible with we had documented. so storing bytes at the even values at soundbase meant "i want to play a mono sound" and so it was emulated. but apple had since retracted documentation on soundbase and decided not to document the lowest layers sound generation. so apple never explained where to stuff bytes if you to make stereo sound. enter game developers. the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games. furthermore, people who port from ibm don't want to learn more apis. so, it has become popular for game writers to write to soundbase to make sound, since it is very easy. since the mac ii, apple has had many different kind of sound output and the only things they have in common are that writing to soundbase on some hardware, (mac ii, iix, iicx, iici at least), writing to soundbase gets you mono sound through both speakers. on some macs (quadra 700/900/950 at least) writing to soundbase gets you mono sound on the left channel both are technically correct interpretations of the original but one is obviously preferable for asthetic reasons. if developers use the sound manager (and i think the sound driver), mono sounds will (typically) come out through both channels regardless of the underlying hardware. it is possible to specify you want to generate left channel only, but no one does. if developers write to sound base, their games will only come out the left on some games. the other problem, the original mac ii only producing left channel sound on the internal speaker, while the se/30 mixes both, isn't really related. it is due to the post generation amplification used on the motherboards of the different machines. it only affects true stereo sounds. sounds which are actually mono, will play on the internal speaker, no matter what you have. now, to more directly address the question, the games you list: out of this world (awesome game, btw) glider 4.0 and also super tetris (and many more, these are just what i've tested) cheat and write to soundbase and so are only left channel on quadras. other games you list: armor alley spaceward ho! and also pga tour golf (and more, these are again only from personal experience) use the sound manager and work fine on all machines. the more of the story is to developers: don't cheat! really, i am absolutely, positively not allowed to do what i am about to but i'm going say it anyway. stop cheating on sound! really soon, you will be sorry, as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware. the grace period is about to end. the sound manager is understandable now, and works pretty well and will even better soon, so use it. in conclusion: to doug, it isn't a hardware problem, at least, not a bug. to jon, it isn't a choice to developers as to whether they want to send to both channels. if they do it the right way, it is taken care of automatically. if you cheat, there is not way to make it work on all have fun. disclaimer number 1: i don't work on sound here at apple, i'm just pretty well informed. so don't write me with sound questions. disclaimer number 2: if it says up above that i wrote anything like "the grace period is about to end" then it is a bug in your news feed, since i am catagorically not allowed to say anything like that. you know what i mean. disclaimer number 3: i don't speak for apple, just me. -steve bollinger 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51847">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51847" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i really want to buy a powerbook and would like one that can run mathematica. so i need a coprocessor but i can not afford a pb180. (who can?) is it possible to put a mcp in a pb160? the guy at the bookstore says no but i didn't think he had too much of a clue. please respond by e-mail: ross@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu thanks in advance, richard 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51851">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51851" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is it possible, ie via creative cable splicing or whatever, to hook a syquest 44mb removable drive to a mac? is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences? rob sprecher rcs8@po.cwru.edu many companies package syquest drives for the mac already.... so unless you are using one for the ibm world, id buy a mac ready config. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51854">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51854" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 |> hi. i am working on a project for my marketing class and i'd like to |> ask your help. the assignment is to come up with a product and create a |> marketing plan for it. technical issues are not terribly important at |> this point... i'm not surprised to learn that `technical issues are not terribly important' to anyone working on a 'marketing plan' 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51857">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51857" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hello all, if anyone knows of a place to get the case to hold the power supply and motherboard of a quadra 950 please let me know. i have tried some mail order places and some local stores. both groups would prefer that i part with over $1000 to get just the case. in my eyes this seems about $600-$700 to much. any comments? i currently own the guts of a 950. please email me or post to this group w/ info, thanks in advance, 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51858">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51858" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 also, if someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus, i'd like to hear about it. thanks for any time and effort you expend on this! try looking at the brainstorm accelerator for the plus. i believe it is the best solution because of the performance and price. why spend $800 upgrading a computer that is only worth $300 ???? the brainstorm accelerator is around $225. it speeds up the internal clock speed to 16mhz. that may not seem like much but it also speeds up scsi transfers. i think that feature is unique to brainstorm. check it out. david lau lau@aerospace.aero.org 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51860">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51860" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 you macinators who have used these voice messaging/fax/data-modems. i have a question. first what brand names do you recommend(i am mostly interested in the voice messaging and fax part). is the voice part as reliable and understandable as the sellers claim? approximately, how much hard drive space does an average day of callers take up, if they speak for one minute? any feed back would be appreciated. my company is looking at buying one or two. hey, i may buy one myself too. thanks in advance don new jr(dnew@du.edu) | another great mind university of denver | ruined chemistry department | by denver, co 80208 | higher education 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51861">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51861" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a fair number of brave souls who upgraded their si clock oscillator have shared their experiences for this poll. please send a brief message detailing your experiences with the procedure. top speed attained, cpu rated speed, add on cards and adapters, heat sinks, hour of usage per day, floppy disk functionality with 800 and 1.4 m floppies are especially requested. i will be summarizing in the next two days, so please add to the network knowledge base if you have done the clock upgrade and haven't answered this poll. thanks. guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51862">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51862" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 just a quick summary of recent findings re. high speed modems. top three contenders seem to be at&t paradyne, zyxel, and us robotics. zyxel has the biggest "cult following", and can be had for under $300, but i ignored it because i need something with mac software, which will work without any the at&t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability. they are backordered at the moment, probably because of the special $299 price in effect until may. its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems. warning: at&t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit (cables & all), and has lifetime warranty. this applies *only* when you order directly from paradyne! i called elektek (one of the distributors), and they wanted to charge me $16 for cable, and gave only 1 year warranty... usr sportster for the mac is also highly (but not as highly) recommended; it's only $250 from clubmac, and if you are willing to roll your own cable and don't care about the faxstf software, you can get the generic model from pc outlets for $190. all this assuming that you don't have a rich uncle, and can't afford a motorola codex... :-( i ended up ordering the dataport; we'll see how it works in two weeks or so. eric behr, illinois state university, mathematics department behr@math.ilstu.edu or behr@ilstu.bitnet (please avoid!) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51863">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51863" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 thanks, steve, for your helpful and informative comments on mac stereo too bad some developers aren't addressing the problem. this did make my trusty old mac ii superior to the quadra i replaced it with in one way though! :) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51865">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51865" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the (drumroll please) lciii. and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line. the centris line pales in comparison. does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics/processor performance? i think you are suffering from some alignment or color table or <whatever> problems, if a color classic is as fast as a quadra rendering to screen. what screen card you use does of course matter much (built-in video is almost always faster than nubus) or you measured "scroll entire screen" where the color classic had a vram 10" screen in 4-bit color and the quadra had a 21" 24-bit screen on nubus :-) / h+ -- jon w{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, mac hacker deluxe -- this sig less than 3 lines: improve the usenet s/n ratio! 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51866">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51866" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine has eight (8) 4mb 70ns simms for sale for $105/each or best offer. since techworks sells these puppies for $140/ea., you may want to contact him directly at: steve epstein 895-6236 days 706-2436 evenings bruce l. **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51868">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51868" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a 512k vram chip for sale. worked fine in my lcii and will give 256 colors on 640 x 480 size screen. asking $50. i'll cover postage. speaking of which, does anyone know what the best way to send a chip is. i have a plastic antistatic sleeve, but what's the best way to send it? in an envelope? first class? all info appreciated. bill "spaceman" lee p.o. box 532, yale station new haven, ct 06520-0532 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51870">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51870" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 here's a list of 800 numbers i have compiled from other sources... anybody got anything to add? it's formatted for alpha, and looks fine for me, so don't complain if it doesn't look good to you. * adobe 1-415-961-0911 fax info 1-800-235-0078 * aldus 1-206-622-5500 * alladin 1-408-685-9175 * altsys 1-214-680-2060 * apda 1-800-282-2732 (apple prog dev assoc) * apple computer 1-408-996-1010 * apple customer 1-800-776-2333 non-tech assistance * aps 1-800-233-7550 (alliance peripheral sys) * asd softwae 1-714-624-2594 fax 1-714-624-9574 * berkeley systems 1-415-540-5535 * cayman systems 1-800-473-4776 * ce software 1-515-224-1953 * claris 1-408-727-8227 1-408-727-9054 claris software 1-800-3cl-aris * compatible systems 1-800-356-0283 * computer associates c.a 1-408-648-4000 * connectix 1-800-950-5880 * dataviz 1-203-268-0300 * dayna 1-801-972-2000 * deltapoint 1-800-367-4334 * deneba 1-305-594-6965 * dr.mac: 1-800-825-6227 * fifth generation 1-800-873-4384 * greatwave 1-408-438-1990 * icom simulations 1-708-520-4440 * macavenue: 1-800-926-6221 * macconnection: 1-800-334-4444 * macland: 1-800-888-8779 * macromind 1-415-442-0200 * mac's place: 1-800-367-4222 * macwarehouse: 1-800-255-6227 * microcom 1-919-490-1277 * microsoft 1-800-426-9400 educational: 1-800-227-4679 general: 1-206-882-8088 sales and services: 1-800-426-9400 then punch: 1 technical assistance 2 university * shiva 1-617-864-8100 * silicon beach 1-619-695-6956 * symantec 1-800-441-7234 * the mac zone: 1-800-248-0800 * chip merchant 1-800-426-6375 * clearpoint computers 1-800-253-2778 * clubmac 1-800-clu-bmac * delta research labs 1-800-999-1593 * diamond 1-800-541-7126 * dynamic electronics 1-800-845-8228 * etc 1-800-882-2863 * global village telecom. 1-800-736-4821 mac adb modems * lifetime memory 1-800-233-6233 * llb 1-800-848-8967 * macproducts usa 1-800 mac disk * macproducts: 1-800-mac-usa1 * megabyte memory 1-800-748-5766 * memory international 1-800-266-0488 * memory plus 1-800-388-plus * micro electronic tech 1-800-766-7466 * newer technology 1-800-678-3726 * peripheral outlet 1-800-332-6581 * psi 1-800-622-1722 * quadmation 1-800-733-7887 * shecom computers 1-800-366-4433 * sii micros 1-800-424-1126 * south coast electronics 1-800-289-8801 * stratum technologies 1-800-533-1744 * technology works 1-800-688-7466 * texas macstuf 1-800-mac-stuf * third wave computing 1-800-284-0486 * third wave 1-800-284-0846 * turbo technologies 1-800-542-7466 1-800-555-1212 directory assistance for 1-800 numbers 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51871">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51871" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to reach micron? i am interested in getting some specifics about what types of monitors work with their micron xceed card for the se/30. either e-mail or phone number would be prefered. or if you have the answers to my questions, i'd appreciate a reply. julia hsieh my opinions are not intended to reflect hsieh@ipld01.hac.com those of hughes aircraft company. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51872">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51872" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the subject says what i would like to do, here are the details: i have a 512ke with the macrescue upgrade board that makes it the equivalent of a plus (system 7 and macenvy both identify it as such). the macrescue board clips onto the 68000 on the mb. it also has a 68000 itself. periodically i have to remove the clip (not an entirely easy thing to do) and clean the "legs" of the 68000. larry pina's book asserts that this is occasionally a problem with snap on upgrades: the 68000's "legs" will oxidize, causing unusual system errors. well, that's me. so, i would like to do something permanent, and i think it would be fairly easy to put a socket in where the 68000 currently is, and modify the macrescue board to plug in. what i'm not 100% sure of is whether it will work. it seems to me that the two 68000s aren't acting independently; so removing one shouldn't have any effect on the performance of my mac. i'm about 97% sure. will someone provide the extra 3%? erik@cheshire.oxy.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51874">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51874" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 we have a user that has word 5.0 and is using symbols such as pi and other mathematic sysmbols, plus doing fractions, etc. the document shows up on the screen with no problems, looks fine. when she tries to print it on a iig the pi changes to an upside down caret, and several other symbols change to double quotes at bottom of character, plus some little circles appear between words of the fractions instead of spaces. this happens on a iig laser printer. tried it on serveral macs and two different iig's. prints fine on an nt and ntx laser printers. what's wrong??? thanks for any help in advance, gary weis university computer center 400 hal greer boulevard huntington, west virginia 25755-5320 phone: (304) 696-3205 fax : (304) 696-3601 internet: gary@marshall.wvnet.edu bitnet : gary@marshall ucc net : gary 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51875">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51875" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the quadra 700 goes thru extensive initalize routines of its hardware, read's pram, obtains all info from last session including the volume setting, and then executes the sound procedure for the startup sound, and wait's on the scsi controller to respond to the boot up code. if the dram produces an error, or a registers cannot be read from a device, or the device corrupts that address/data or control paths, then if it is possible, the firmware branchs to another sound routine that produces the 'sad mac' sound. this is a general breifing of the start up procedure of a typical mac. if you cannot control the volume of the quadra, even at boot up, then i feel there is something incorrect with the logic board. my quadra 700 does not show the problems you are having. steve h 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51876">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51876" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the cd300 (external) is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now. demand for the units are high, so they are pretty rare. hm, i've got my cd drive since 921230. i've also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd's, but i can't confirm it. indeed, cds are bundled with it. you usually get nine cds with demos of applications, games, photos, etc. i have compiled a list of these and posted it to alt.cdrom. i will post an updated version of this list rsn. sven :) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51877">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51877" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i want to go from 512k to 1m vram on my quadra 800. how many 512k simms do i need to buy? is the current 512k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more? wesley stuart jones %% wesley stuart jones jonesw@res.wes.mot.com %% %% wstuartj@ecn.purdue.edu %% 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51878">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51878" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm getting a sad mac icon on a black screen with the error code 0300ff. could someone please tell me what's wrong? memory? thanks a lot. i'd appreciate it infinitely... nestor michelena 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51881">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51881" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 ha... all this talk about changing the clock speed of the q700 makes me ask?? if i replaced the 8mhz 68000 in my plus with a 16mhz 68000 with a 16mhz clock occilater of its own( not shared by the rest of the mac... just the new 16mhz68000) would my mac work..... and if it would work.. would you think there where be any problems with sound, vidio,scsi........ it seems like a simple solution to keepa dead slow mechine a live a little longer.. oh if this would not work any idears on how to make it work??? arp0150@ritvax.isc.rit.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51882">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51882" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 1) i have an old jasmine drive which i cannot use with my new system. my understanding is that i have to upsate the driver with a more modern one in order to gain compatability with system 7.0.1. does anyone know of an inexpensive program to do this? ( i have seen formatters for <$20 buit have no idea if they will work) 2) i have another ancient device, this one a tape drive for which the back utility freezes the system if i try to use it. the drive is a jasmine direct tape (bought used for $150 w/ 6 tapes, techmar mechanism). essentially i have the same question as above, anyone know of an inexpensive beckup utility i can use with system 7.0.1 all help and advice appriciated. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51883">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51883" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 question for those familiar with quadra vram: i put 2 256k vram simms in my quadra 700 (in the 2 slots closest to the ram simm slots) and i got no results whatsoever. i have been told that the built-in video should support at least 16bit and maybe 24bit color on a macintosh color display. however, the monitors control panel still lists 8bit (256 colors) as the highest possible. does it make any difference which slots you put the simms in? do you have to do something to activate them? do you have to do something to the monitors control panel? btw, i am running system 7.1 with 8 megs of ram. charles p. cox, jr. computer engineering case western reserve university cpc3@po.cwru.edu cox@snowhite.eeap.cwru.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51885">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51885" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i remember someone mention about a 150meg syquest. has anyone else heard anything about this? i'd be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli 150. i think you must be talking about the syquest 105 (code named mesa i believe). it is a 3.5" winchester technology drive pretty much like the other syquest drives in terms of how it works. according to the latest macleak, the drive has a 14.5 ms access time, 1.9 mb/s sustained throughput (these figures are from memory so they could be slightly off, but they give you an idea of performance nonetheless). the drive was originally released for the pc and just recently was released for the mac world (don't ask me what the differences are) and through they are currently in limited supply, according to a syquest rep. they are in the process of ramping up for mass production. i have already seen them advertised by a number of manufacturers in macleak including pli, massmicro, clubmac, and macwarehouse's poweruser. the pli and massmicro units are priced at just around $1000; the lesser name brands are going for around $750 for an external drive. cartridges which hold 105 mb sell for about $80 each. at these prices, the drives and cartridges are cheaper and better performing than the 88mb drives. cost per megabyte compares favorably with other cartridge drives and bernoulli drives, but for large amounts of data optical is still cheaper, and more reliable. personally, i'm excited by the new drive and look forward to getting my hands on one. -chris wand "egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity." - frank leahy 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51891">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51891" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 <stuff deleted> also, i am not interested in quicktime. i would merely like to use my mac as a television from time to time. i have a nice sony 1430 monitor, and i would like to use it as a second tv when my wife is watching sitcoms on our regular tv. <other stuff deleted> wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a little fourteen inch colour tv? just curious... george micahels jeff scott montreal, que, canada scott@silverbullet.cam.org 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51893">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51893" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi: does anybody known how much about to buy an ethernet card for mac se ? besides,where do i goto buy.if i buy it by mail-order,which brand is suitable for mac se(the network is coxial wire).thanks a lot. could anybody tell me what to do? thank you. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51895">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51895" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 rvenkate@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (ravikuma venkateswar) writes ... 040 486 030 386 020 286 how about some numbers here? some kind of benchmark? benchmarks are for marketing dweebs and cpu envy. ok, if it will make you happy, the 486 is faster than the 040. bfd. both architectures are nearing then end of their lifetimes. and especially with the x86 architecture: good riddance. besides, for 0 wait state performance, you'd need a cache anyway. i mean, who uses a processor that runs at the speed of 80ns simms? note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of 12.5 mhz. the point being the processor speed is only one of many aspects of a computers performance. clock speed, processor, memory speed, cpu architecture, i/o systems, even the application program all contribute to the overall system performance. and roughly, the 68040 is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the 68030. look them up yourself. ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51898">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51898" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 whatever equipment will work on a mac plus or a mac se will work fine on a mac portable. it doesn't have a sound input, but there is equipment that works fine with those models mentioned in macuser/macworld. gene@jackatak.raider.net (gene wright) ------------jackatak.raider.net (615) 377-5980 ------------ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51900">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51900" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i wonder why nobody has ever tried to replace the oscilator only, like on a mac iisi. i have had my q700 running with a 66.666 mhz osc for a few months. i have a number of scsi devices connected (quantum lp52, maxtor 213, toshiba mk156f via emulex adapter, pioneer drm-600) and have had no trouble. i am using the stock cooling facilities, i considered adding a fan/heat pump, but don't feel they are necessary (for my box anyway). i have a temp meter on order and plan to do some measurements when it arrives in a few weeks. email me if you want to see the results. james macphail jmacphai@cue.bc.ca (on bounce, try james@mirg2.phy.queensu.ca) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51901">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51901" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 help! i just received my falcon 2.2.1 upgrade from spectrum holobyte today. my se is running sys 7.0.1 with 4mb of ram. like the instructions said, i only installed disk 2 (the program...no start up screen or music). i just downloaded macsbug from ftp.apple.com like it said, and installed it in my system folder. i restarted the mac an hour later, and it wouldn't completely boot off the internal hd. i get the "happy mac", then it disappears, only to reappear and repeat the cycle continuously. i never even get the "welcome to macintosh" message. norton utilities fixed about 12 new problems, but the same thing still happened. what do i do? please e-mail to "orly@aludra.usc.edu" thanks in advance!!! victor orly |victor r. orly | "try to imagine all life as you know it, | |aka "mr. nitro plastique" | stopping instantaneously, and every molecule | |univ. of southern california | in your body exploding at the speed of light"| |internet: orly@aludra.usc.edu| -egon spengler, from "ghostbusters" | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51905">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51905" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 can anyone tell me what the difference is between a 256k dram chip and a 256k simm? i need the former (i think) to add memory to my laserwriter ls. someone is offering to sell me 256k simms he removed from an se, but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory. the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery-shaped chips (there are 4 sockets, each with, as i recall, 20 pins, arranged in two rows of 10). believe it or not, i've never actually seen a simm. help appreciated. a simm is a small pcb with dram chips soldered on. --maarten in real life: maarten carels computer science department university of amsterdam email: maarten@fwi.uva.nl 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51906">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51906" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have had my q700 running with a 66.666 mhz osc for a few months. i have a number of scsi devices connected (quantum lp52, maxtor 213, toshiba mk156f via emulex adapter, pioneer drm-600) and have had no trouble. is this being done with the motherboard's scsi interface? if this is possible then a bit of experimenting with just plain old clock oscillators may be in order. give us some more details please. the mad clock chipper in seattle <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51907">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51907" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is anyone out there using a greyscale handscanner. i'm thinking about buying one. is the inexpensive logitech pretty good. i don't need super high quality scans- but want it to be worth the $$$$. thanks in advance- mike charles 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51908">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51908" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i recently upgraded to system 7.1 and now i also upgraded my deskwriter drivers from 2.2 to 3.1. i got the software from sumex, but it is not clear to me where to install what. can someone tell me which of the files that come with dw-3.1 go where and for what purpose? what can be left out, for instance, if you don't want to do background printing? internet: wstomv@win.tue.nl / eindhoven university of technology voice: +31 40 47 41 25 / dept of mathematics & computing science fax: +31 40 43 66 85 / po box 513, nl-5600 mb eindhoven, netherlands 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51909">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51909" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone have any good code to drive the serial port in syncronos i really need it bad abravo@mondrian.csufres.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51911">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51911" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the logitech scanman 32 is a nice unit, compact and effective it will bring in graphics with surprisingly good quality. note that its effective resolution in grey scale mode is only about 72 dpi. if you don't intend to magnify a graphic, it works fine. a true 256 level gray scanner would work better for images. i've seen the scanman go for as little as $100 used. it is a reasonable buy at that price. higher end hand scanners are almost as expensive as used flat bed scanners. here is seattle, the paper shows occasional good bargains in the classifieds. used color flat beds have been seen as lows as $500 lately. grey scale flatbeds come in around $300-$350. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51915">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51915" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 note that if you get the external cd300 for your centris or q800 you will miss out on the sound mixing feature unless you are willing to run a wire from the motherboard sound input connector to the stereo output on the cd. connecting to the sound input port on the back of the computer won't do unless you can live with mono. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51917">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51917" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 there is no reason that apple couldn't release software patches for older computers (there are lots of mac pluses, classics and ses that have been upgraded to 68020 and 68030 processors which should be perfectly able to deal with color quickdraw) - but they wont, and 3rd parties are having a difficult there is one reason: market size. the market size for color quickdraw for accellerated plusses and ses (which don't go beyond 4 mb anyway) is just too small; the extra cost would belike $1,000 and with that money, you can buy a color classic instead. / h+ -- jon w{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, mac hacker deluxe -- -- i don't fear death, it's dying that scares me. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51918">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51918" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a/rose extension? hey what does the a/rose extension do anyway ? \ michael antolovich in wagga wagga, a great place to be be... / \ mantolovich@csu.edu.au or antolovich@zac.riv.csu.edu.au / \__________________________________________________________/ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51920">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51920" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 after reading reports from germany of success in accelerating a quadra or centris simply by changing the clock oscillator, i decided to test the claim. i pulled out my variable speed overdrive and the motherboard's 50 mhz clock chip. i put a socket in the clock's place and inserted a 64 mhz ttl clock oscillator i had left over from working on some si's. i can't believe it. it actually works. i'm not getting scsi timing errors either. this is only after a short run time but i'll keep posting results. did i spend all that money on the vso for nothing? if this keeps working, the lack of a double boot in itself will be worth the effort. guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51923">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51923" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 can anyone tell me what the difference is between a 256k dram chip and a 256k simm? i need the former (i think) to add memory to my laserwriter ls. someone is offering to sell me 256k simms he removed from an se, but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory. the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery-shaped chips (there are 4 sockets, each with, as i recall, 20 pins, arranged in two rows of 10). believe it or not, i've never actually seen a simm. help appreciated. a 256k dram chip is a 256 kilobit chip whereas a 256k simm is a 256 kilobyte memory module. the simm is a pcb with a 30 pin connector edge and on the simm are 8 256 kilobit dram chips (making the total memory 256 you are correct assuming that simms will not fit into a laserwriter. apple printers either require 64 pin simms like those in the mac iifx or special memory chips. contact your apple dealer to find out exactly what kind of chips you need. peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc@bnr.ca 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51924">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51924" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a 8 meg 72-pin simm for my centris 610. where is the best place to purchase one (stock, shipping, warrenty), and if possible, phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible. try goldstar. they make them, and they are available immediately in mac configurations. i ordered a pair from computerland (8 meg variety) and they work like a charm. i've had them for two weeks. peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc@bnr.ca 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51925">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51925" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the at&t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability. they are backordered at the moment, probably because of the special $299 price in effect until may. its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems. warning: at&t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit (cables & all), and has lifetime warranty. this applies *only* when you order directly from paradyne! i called elektek (one of the distributors), and they wanted to charge me $16 for cable, and gave only 1 year warranty... hmm, i don't know where this information concerning the cable and the warranty came from but i ordered mine from logos communications, near cleveland, and inside was a mac cable (with the correct pin connections :-)) and a lifetime warranty. the whole package was assembled at at&t paradyne, and every piece (the serial cable, the telephone cable, etc.) had at&t part numbers on them, except the quicklink software package and the compuserve intro kit. eric behr, illinois state university, mathematics department behr@math.ilstu.edu or behr@ilstu.bitnet (please avoid!) if anyone's interested, logos number is (800) 837-7777. i ordered mine last wednesday and got my modem on friday, though it's not to far from cleveland to pittsburgh.. :-) on the down side they only ship ups cod. | christopher p. dingman | | electrical and computer eng. dept. dingman@ece.cmu.edu | | carnegie mellon university (412) 268-7119 | | 5000 forbes ave | | pittsburgh, pa 15213 | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51927">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51927" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have tested this on a 230 and it does work there. so it would seem that the 140 and 170 are out though. one way to tell is to go and open the powerbook control panel(7.1). there is a setting there that allows you to set the time to wake up the mac. if it is present when you open the control panel, then you can assume that setwutime will work. andrew e. page (warrior poet) | decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant | the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology | and what we want to be. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51928">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51928" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a lightening scan pro 256 hand scanner. it came with scanning/editing software, ocr software, and some plug-in modules for photoshop et al. the scanner was a tad on the pricey side ($480), but the scans are incredibly accurate, in 256 level, 300 dpi grayscale. it also has dithered and line art settings when grayscale isn't desired. great scanning software, easy to use. i frequently write letters to my neices, and spontaneouly include a scanned image in the note. hope this helps! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51932">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51932" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 doesn't a 1 mb simm have about 1024 * 1024 * 8 moving flip-flops? they don't move, to anybody much bigger than an electron :-) and they're more like 1024x1024x8 charging & discharging capacitors in a dram simm =-) anthony d. saxton elenay creations 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51936">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51936" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi there! what is your recommendation for a good hard-disk driver software for non-apple drives? i would mainly need it for a syquest removable media drive, but maybe for some normal drives too. i have heard and seen good things about silverlining, but don't know any competitors. it does not need to be fancy, filled with features... i more like it affordable. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51938">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51938" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 someone asked me if i there existed an init that removes the dialog "you're gonna disconnect all apletalk users " or something like that, when the powerbook falls asleep. he said he was sure that such a thing existed, and he thought it was freeware. can anyone help me out with this ? btw : where can i get switch-a-roo, or something of the kind, but schareware or freeware ? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51941">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51941" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just got a la cie 240 meg external hard drive. speed tests show that it's substantially faster that my internal 105 meg quantum hd. supposedly the 105 and the 240 (both lps drives) are roughly rated the same speed. why such a large difference? could be better caching on the disk. could be faster coil for seeks. could be that the disk spins faster so data transfers faster. could be that data is packed tighter so it transfers faster. could be a faster scsi command decoder in the drive. among other things... -- jon w{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, mac hacker deluxe -- engineering: "how will this work?" science: "why will this work?" management: "when will this work?" liberal arts: "do you want fries with that?" -- jesse n. schell 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51945">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51945" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 last week's macweek article by ric ford indicated that david ramsey's mac iix has been running nicely with a mac iici rom in it, offering clean 32-bit rom code (liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused by apple's 32-bit system enabler). does anyone know of a source for these roms? is it okay for a remanufacturer to resell only rom chips from used machines? i know that copies cannot be made, but it seems to me that it would be okay to resell the original used rom. (after all, reselling a used computer involves the sale of the rom anyway, so what's the difference?). needless to say, i'm interested in purchasing such a rom. what would be a reasonably price to offer? /\/\ morgan davis group (619/670-0563) / /__\ internet: mdavis@crash.cts.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51947">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51947" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a/rose extension? hey what does the a/rose extension do anyway ? newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system organization: technische universitaet muenchen, germany a/rose = apple real time operating system environment this is a system extension for these nubus cards using the mcp (= macintosh coprocessor platform). the mcp-cards are nubus cards with a motorola 68000-processor and 512 kb ram (expandable to 1 meg). mcp is a development platform for hardware-designers so they can use a card with an own processor and thus the main processor isn't needed for these cards. currently the only cards i know are - the apple tokenring-card - the new apple ethernet-card - the apple nubus serial card perhaps there are some third-party-cards, but i don't know. frank probul emanuelstr. 17, d-8000 munich 40, germany applelink: probul.f@applelink.apple.com internet: probulf@informatik.tu-muenchen.de munich university of technology department of computer science 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51950">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51950" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi!! i have a question: which is the diference between performa 450 and lciii? i want to know which is better. if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers, can you tell me by email to ----> rcvillab@isluga.puc.cl i'd like to know the diference between the apple monitor('14) and the performa monitor too. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51951">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51951" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 interestingly enough, the cdrom 300i that came with my quadra 800 has only 8 disks: 1. system install 2. kodak photo cd sampler 3. alice to ocean 4. cdrom titles 5. application demos 6. mozart: dissonant quartet 7. nautilus 8. apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems to be getting with the external? what i really feel i missed out on is what is supposed to a fantastic games demo disk. i have heard that people have gotten up to 9-10 disks with their drive. i assume they get the 8 titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom. any comments and experiences? should i call apple to complain? =) thewho@plume.mit.edu what i did not get with my drive (cd300i) is the system install cd you listed as #1. any ideas about how i can get one? i bought my iivx 8/120 from direct express in chicago (no complaints at all -- good price & good service). btw, i've heard that the system install cd can be used to boot the mac; however, my drive will not accept a cd caddy is the machine is off. how can you boot with it then? --dave dlc@umcc.ais.org 313.485.3394 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51952">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51952" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 why no. it is a little known fact that no macs have a cpu. they are all connected via a cellular network to the cray supercomputer in apple's garage (that's right the same one where steve & steve built the apple --shannon silly you. don't you know the only division at apple allowed to use the cray is the legal department? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51953">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51953" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 could someone please e-mail or post a cheap source for ink carts for the hp deskwriter? original hp carts are preferred, but i will settle for third-party brands if they are of good quality. | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51955">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51955" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 can anyone tell me the procedure for hooking a personal laserwriter ntr serially to a mac? the documentation says it can be done, but i'm not sure of the correct switch setting to use out of the given non-appletalk switch options. also, will i need to install a new driver so that the chooser knows the printer is hooked up directly (not networked)? thanks a lot, 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51957">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51957" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 enter game developers. the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games. the sound driver is pretty ok, since it's fast. sound manager used by the book is *useless*. disposing of sound channels as soon as sound has completed is out of the question for games with smooth animation. (it's too slow.) the sound driver is so much snappier than sound manager. unfortunately, system 7 supports it poorly, making programs crash occasionally. the more of the story is to developers: don't cheat! really, i am absolutely, positively not allowed to do what i am about to but i'm going say it anyway. stop cheating on sound! really soon, you will be sorry, as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware. the grace period is about to end. the sound manager is understandable now, and works pretty well and will even better soon, so use it. well, i want my code to work on old systems too. i don't know about sys 7.1, but at least on 6.0.7, there are bugs in the sound manager that causes channels to hang (with no error message). this happends when i keep a channel open for long periods - necessary for performance - and play many sounds, stopping sounds halfway. callbacks seems not to be reliable. then only way i can safely tell if a sound has stopped playing is to inspect private variables in the channel (qhead, i think it was), and the only way i have found to tell if a channel is hung is to inspect an *undocumented* flag and modify it. am i happy with this? nope. i consider writing to soundbase simply to get rid of the bugs. any better suggestions? (silent games is not among the acceptab|e solutions.) ingemar ragnemalm dept. of electrical engineering ...!uunet!mcvax!enea!rainier!ingemar university of linkoping, sweden ingemar@isy.liu.se 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51960">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51960" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a pb 100 that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation, to take advantage of the educational discount. to those who have recently bought or sold a pb 100, what kind of price did you get? info on any config of pb100 appreciated. thanks. cam daly phone: (617) 225-7880 22f1 internet: cam@athena.mit.edu 550 memorial dr "he who fights and runs away, cambridge ma 02139 lives to nuke the site from orbit" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51961">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51961" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system : 7 on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc? i [stuff deleted] : -david even better than that... how does a 68000-based amiga 2000 perform in daily tasks compared to my 68030-based iici. answer, except in a very few cases, i get my butt kicked by the amiga. sure there are other considerations, but it goes to show you how proper design from the beginning (in hardware and software) can give you great returns. [as well as showing you that if you don't have a marketing department to speak of, no one will care how good your system is] i'm still happy with my ci, but i don't understand why the performance is so bad (comparatively). they could have done multi-tasking _properly_. they could have done everthing else better -- but apple didn't. (of course dos 6 and windows 3.1 are nothin to write home about either!!) oh well, y'all got $2.00 worth for the price of $0.02 peter pundy email: 2545500@jeff-lab.queensu.ca "i've got no witty wisdom to share, but have a nice day anyway." 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51962">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51962" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 at work we have a small appletalk network with 3 macs and couple of printers. we also have a pc that has some specialized accounting software that we would like to operate from any of the macs. we have soft pc, and i have found that the software works just fine under it, but i would like to have all of the data for the program reside at one place (the pc hard disk). so my question for you is(actually questions) 1) is there a board for the pc that will allow you to hook into an appletalk 2) if #1 is possible, is there any software/hardware combination that will allow me to mount the pc hard disk as a networked disk on the macs so i can use soft pc to run the application? 3) if #1 or #2 is impossible, is there any other way to accomplish what i am chris parrish | university of oklahoma | "to share is to split..." cmparris@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu | - kmfdm 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51964">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51964" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : basically, the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves, as if the : reboot button were being pushed. sometimes the mac is able to fully boot : and display the desktop, but it is only a matter of time before it reboots : again. at times, the frequency is as high as several times a minute. i wonder if your mac has those little "reset / interupt" switches installed. they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac. or mabey those switches are bad and need replacing. i wish i caught the original post, but anyway ... the problem is that the plus's poor old power supply (sometimes referred to as the analog sweep board) is on its way out. apart from a board swap (bikkies to apple), there's not much the average joe can do to fix it. you can, of course, try and re-adjust the voltage levels (the 5v rail should be as close to 5v as you cn get it) but this is more often than not a temporary fix. a copy of larry pina's "macntosh repair & upgrade secrets" is a worthwhile investment for the serious do-it-yaself-er. geoff peters mididoc@cola.flash.pax.tpa.com.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51965">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51965" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i guess the real question is: who asked the original questions, and why was it so _broad_. are we talking pure processing power (what kind of processing btw) isolated from every other factor and influence in the system? or are we shopping for a home computer based on the cpu specs (yuck)! i just finished a project that involves real-time processing of serial data and discovered that the programming interface (assembly) has _a lot_ to do with the "power" of a cpu in a particular application. if what you want to do is easy to code with the instruction set given, then not only is it easy, but it's cheap and quick. if you have to fake things (like resolving indirection without a lea instruction), then your cycle count goes through the roof! well, let's _not_ start a flame war about whose computer is better than whose. the orginal question was about classifying micro-processors... having re-read the entire thread, i don't think much more can be said without getting down into specific proposed systems with important details given. that's it for another $0.02. cheers everyone. peter pundy email: 2545500@jeff-lab.queensu.ca "i've got no witty wisdom to share, but have a nice day anyway." 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51970">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51970" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in chicago. any leads would be most appreciated. here is a list of the firstclass systems in illinois: chicago machine chicago, il (312) 233-9607 insane domain chicago, il (312) 274-9515 mac universe bbs chicago, il (312) 235-6794 the net rockford, il (815) 968-4729 mactripp wilmette, il (708) 251-4158 innovators vernon hills, il (708) 918-1231 if anyone wants the numbers to more firstclass systems, i would be glad to post the complete list. - jason hyerstay - adrenaline admin = /| |\ |-\ /-- \ | /\ | | \ | /-- adrenaline online (firstclass) = = /-| | \ |_/ |- |\| /--| | | |\| |- (802) 425-2332 * charlotte, vt = = / | |_/ | \ \-- | \ | | |-- | | \ \-- free access!! * 16.8k hst dual = = onenet * macunion * fidonet * usenet * 120+ conferences * megs of files = = dedicated to mac users, cyberpunks, civil libertarians and mecha gamers = 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51974">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51974" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional 68882 socket on the board. my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the 68882 on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself? intuitively, the math co-processor should always be placed close to the cpu, but i am not sure how good apple's so-called processor-direct slot is when it comes to throughout. does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter? thanks in advance. andy sun (andy@ie.utoronto.ca) 4 taddle creek road, toronto computing coordinator ontario, canada. m5s 1a4 department of industrial engineering phone: (416) 978-8830 university of toronto fax: (416) 978-3453 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51977">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51977" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 : is there a fix for this? we have a quadra 900 that will not finish startup : unless there is a monitor connected. this would be no problem, but since : we're running it as a file server, there is no need to have a monitor : connected all the time. i've seen a control panel made for this. i don't remember the name, where i saw it, or on what quadra models it will work. but i do know it exists :) /mats mats bredell mats.bredell@udac.uu.se uppsala university computing center (udac) ph: +46 18 187817 department of medical systems fax: +46 18 187825 sweden think straight - be gay! i will poke around in the u of m archives and see if i find something. if anyone else finds this, please post the location! :-) i think i found what your looking for on ftp.apple.com in the /dts/mac/sys.soft/video directory and is called "virtual monitor switch 1.0". hope this helps. charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51978">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51978" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 sorry, this must be a faq, but it's a quick fix that i need to take care of before a demo in less than 24 hours from now! couldn't think of a better place for a rapid answer than comp.sys.mac.hardware. i need to connect the serial a of a compac 386/20 pc to the printer port of a mac iici. does anyone have handy the pin-pin routing for the cable that would allow this connection? the serial port on the compaq is a male db9. how would this map to the din8 of the mac serial? i tried one of those really short femaledb9-maledin8 cables that apple sold as adaptors to plug in macintosh serial peripherals from the pre-macplus era. this cable didn't do it. do i need a null modem adaptor as well on the db9 side of things? i just need to be able to map the data tx and rx pins correctly. thanks kindly, atau tanaka tanaka@ircam.fr 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51980">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51980" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 :> : basically, the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves, as if the :> : reboot button were being pushed. sometimes the mac is able to fully boot well this threads been going long enough... i'll add a diferent twist. i found that the constant rebooting was due to overheating. we had added 4mb ram, and were operating in a non ac environment. adding an external cooling fan fixed it right up. ( over a year ago ) / george jefferson \/ * george@mech.seas.upenn.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51981">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51981" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a logitech 256grays hand scanner from a pc. i'm wondering if anyone has been successful in connecting the scanner to a mac? it has the same connector and is a serial device on the pc. i can imagine the pins coniguration would need to changeed, but i'm not sure if the signal levels would be correct, and if the mac s/w would work with it. of course the manuals say nothing about the interface, connector layout or anything h/w-ish! any ideas?? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51982">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51982" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a 10-18% price reduction, according to 'newsbytes'. is this definite? does anyone know when it will take effect? and what is 'newsbytes'? it already happened as far as i know... i got some email about three weeks ago saying it was coming, and sure enough, a week after that the duos dropped in price. i think the duo 210 4/80 is now around us$1,8xx. the educational prices have dropped, and i imagine others as well, but i haven't really checked around since i boycott the local necrocenter for reasons that extend over the past 13 years. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51983">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51983" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional 68882 socket on the board. my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the 68882 on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself? intuitively, the math co-processor should always be placed close to the cpu, but i am not sure how good apple's so-called processor-direct slot is when it comes to throughout. does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter? thanks in advance. andy sun (andy@ie.utoronto.ca) 4 taddle creek road, toronto computing coordinator ontario, canada. m5s 1a4 department of industrial engineering phone: (416) 978-8830 university of toronto fax: (416) 978-3453 i believe the fpu on the lciii is always supposed to go on the logic board, not in the pds board. i have heard of crashing problems with pds-based fpus on the lciii. asante may have fixed them but why bother. why bother building an lciii card with an fpu anyway? the extra circuitry gives the card one more chance to fail. i say fpu on main logic board, in socket, ethernet alone on pds card, in slot. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51984">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51984" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a 10-18% price reduction, according to 'newsbytes'. is this definite? does anyone know when it will take effect? and what is 'newsbytes'? local la stores have already reduced prices by $200 on most duo (although apple dropped the list price by $310). 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51985">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51985" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is there any third party video ram adapter for vewing 24 bit color on lcii? i heard that apple is selling it aroung 160$. please e-mail me. youyj@mace.cc.purdue.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51987">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51987" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have access to a dec tlz06 dec dat tape backup. what do i need to interface my se/30 to the tape backup. the tape backup is a scsi. will norton utilities be sufficient to interface the two? jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university, dayton, oh e-mail: jyow@desire.wright.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51988">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51988" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a pb 100 that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation, to take advantage of the educational discount. to those who have recently bought or sold a pb 100, what kind of price did you get? info on any config of pb100 appreciated. thanks. cam daly several months ago i bought a 4/40 pb100 with external floppy, appletalk remote access, a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition, used for us$900. i considered it a very good buy and am very *cosy* with my little baby now... :-) murray m. altheim "ils ont l'orteil de bouc, & d'un chevreil l'oreille, instructional consultant la corne d'un chamois, & la face vermeille csu, sacramento comme un rouge croissant: & dancent toute nuict altheimm@csus.edu dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict." 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51991">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51991" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 for sale: apple macintosh lc; 2 mb ram, 40 mb hdd, fdd. applecolor 13" hi-res rgb monitor. keyboard, mouse, microphone, & kensington masterpiece mac ii. running system 7. all documentation and manuals. symantec greatworks 1.00 & mac tools deluxe 1.2 loaded on hdd. all disks and manuals included. all hardware in mint condition, used a total of 60 minutes. there is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, i just can't get used to a mac after using a pc. $800 + shipping costs (non-negotiable). also, as an *option* only to the person who purchases the above: apple stylewriter printer with accessory kit. brand new, never used, in factory-sealed carton. $200 + shipping costs. reply via e-mail to <david.morgan@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us> and leave phone number (fast) or call 313-552-1769 (24-hr. voice mail) (faster). serious inquiries only, please. first come, first served. (this ad was originally posted to this conference a couple of weeks ago, but the first "buyer" couldn't finance the purchase and i accidentally killed all other replies. sorry.) | hal 9000 bbs: qwk-to-usenet gateway | four 14400 v.32bis dial-ins | | free usenet mail and 200 newsgroups! | pcboard 14.5am * uupcb * kmail | | call +1 313 663 4173 or 663 3959 +--------------------------------+ | member of eff, asp, asad * 1500mb disk * serving ann arbor since 1988 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51996">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51996" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 its not a difficult operation-- the cables and such are standard, except for scsi id. scsi id is usually three jumper pads-- labelled a0-a2 on quantums. i am trying to put a 40mb drive from my lc into a case. it is a conner cp3040a. i can't figure out which jumpers are the scsi id jumpers. is anyone familiar with this drive? at the end of the drive (oposite the 50 pin pibbon connector), there are eleven pins which look like this: o o o o o o 1 o o o o o 2 l5 cr12 c37 where the "o" are pins, and the "l5 cr12 c37" represent some of the silk screen notation near these pins. elsewhere on the board there are four jumper pads marked e1,e2,e3,e4 on the silk screen. does anyone know where the scsi id a0,a1,a2 pins are, and where the drive activity light led should be plugged into? allan m. schwartz +1 408 492-0900 ams@auspex.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51997">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51997" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am currently managing, among many other labs, a lab with three lc iis, a mac plus with 45 mb external hd, and a laserwriter ii ntx. my problem? the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail's pace. these lc iis have 4 mb ram, 256k vram, and a quantum lp105s hd installed. i have reformatted the drive with hard disk toolkit 1.3, and it gives a very respectable 2.9 overall rating to this drive, so it's not the drive. i have reinstalled system 7.1, ms-word 5.1a, ms-works 3.0, and so on, all from the master disks. in short, i have done everything i can think of in software. i am *not* a hardware hacker, though i pop cases fairly often. but nothing works. the problem is intermittent and unpredictable. the mouse always moves smoothly, floppies always run at the same speed, but occasionally, for about 1-2 hours at a time, a machine will run like it was running on a 4 mhz 68000, not a 16 mhz 68030. it is very frustrating and makes it nearly unusable. it does seem to worsen with increasing disk activity. has anyone encountered this problem before? has anyone got any ideas? they would be much appreciated. -- andrew geweke douce@tfsquad.mn.org (andrew geweke) the firing squad bbs, public access usenet mail and news. +1 612 291 2632 saint paul, minnesota 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware51998">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware51998" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 y_,_|[]| ernest stalnaker {|_|_|__| jcs@sage.cc.purdue.edu //oo--oo ...!pur-ee!sage.cc!jcs 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52000">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52000" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 lines: 5 y_,_|[]| ernest stalnaker {|_|_|__| jcs@sage.cc.purdue.edu //oo--oo ...!pur-ee!sage.cc!jcs nice train... wait... this is *.mac.hardware, does it have a mac in it? 
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 does anyone out there know where some one can become educated in the art of repairing macintosh computers? also, how does one gain the prestige of being refered to as a authorized apple service person? has anyone out there actually done any of this or maybe even know someone who did. i would appreciate any and all comments on this subject. ben roy--------internet<br4416a@american.edu>---------pcs(poor college student) 
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 my friend has a macintosh iifx on which he is running system 6.0.7 (not enough memory yet to run sys7 adequately), and he noticed that when he tries to use multifinder on this machine, the machine will beep every few seconds incessantly, nonstop. now, this friend has a tendency to "install" things on his machine rather haphazardly, but he *did* rebuild his system from scratch and it still occurs. does this problem sound familiar at all to anyone? for all i know the problem is caused by something really obscure but if this is a known simple thing (yeah, right...) that someone is familiar with (like "system 6.0.7 multifinder doesn't run on a mac iifx"), or if someone here knows what he should be looking for, please send e-mail either to me or to him (smh@vaxf.acdnj.itt.com). thanx in advance. "digging in the dirt, stay with me i need support digging in the dirt, find the places i got hurt rich rosen open up the places i got hurt..." rlr@panix.com 
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 archive-name: macintosh/general-faq version: 2.1.3 last-modified: april 16, 1993 copyright 1993, elliotte harold changes: 2.1: where can i ftp macintosh software? i added the ftp site anl.anl.fr. 2.5: what is .bin? .hqx? .cpt? .image? .etc.? disk doubler will decode packit archives. binhex 5.0 will decode macbinary files, not stuffit files as the last version erroneously indicated. 2.7: i added the question how can i get binhex, stuffit etc. from a pc? comp.sys.mac.faq part 1: an introduction to the macintosh newsgroups i. introduction 1. how do i use this document? 2. what other information is available? 3. which newsgroup should i post to? 4. someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen megabytes on their iicx. shouldn't i display my knowledge to the world by posting the seventeenth response to their question? ii. ftp 1. where can i ftp macintosh software? 2. can i get shareware by e-mail? 3. where can i find application x? 4. can someone mail me application x? 5. what is .bin? .hqx? .cpt? .image? .etc.? 6. how can i get binhex? stuffit? etc.? 7. how can i get binhex, stuffit, etc. from a pc? iii. troubleshooting. what to do when things go wrong 1. identify the problem. 2. read the read me file. 3. check for viruses. 4. reinstall the application and all its support files. 5. reinstall the system software. 6. isolate the problem. 7. contact technical support. iv. preventive maintenance 1. trash unneeded files 2. reevaluate your extensions 3. rebuild the desktop. 4. zap the pram and reset the clock 5. resize the system heap. 6. reinstall the system software. 7. disk utilities 8. backing up 9. disk defragmentation 10. reformatting and partitioning your hard disk other faq lists currently available: b. comp.sys.mac.system: i. memory 1. why is my system using so much memory? 2. what is mode 32? the 32-bit enabler? do i need them? 3. cache and carry (how much memory should i allot to my cache?) ii. system software 1. why does apple charge for system 7.1? 2. what does system 7.1 give me for my $35 that system 7.0 doesn't? 3. where can i get system 7.1? 4. how can i use system 6 on a system 7 only mac? 5. non-us scripts and systems 6. what is system 7 tuneup? do i need it? 7. why do my da's disappear when i turn on multifinder? 8. do i need system 7.0.1? 9. how can i get system 7.0.1 on 800k disks? iii. hard disks, filesharing, and the file system 1. help! my folder disappeared! 2. why can't i throw this folder away? 3. why can't i share my removable drive? 4. why can't i eject this syquest cartridge? cd-rom? etc. 5. why can't i rename my hard disk? iv. miscellaneous: 1. what does system error xxx mean? 2. what is a type 1 error? 3. what is a/rose? 4. easy access or one answer, many questions c. comp.sys.mac.misc: i. viruses 1. help! i have a virus! 2. reporting new viruses ii. printing and postscript 1. how do i make a postscript file? 2. how do i print a postscript file? 3. why won't my postscript file print on my mainframe's printer? 4. why are my postscript files so big? 5. how can i print postscript on a non-postscript printer? 6. how do i make my imagewriter ii print in color? 7. why doesn't printmonitor work with the imagewriter? 8. why did my document change when i printed it? 9. how can i preview a postscript file? 10. how do i edit a postscript file? iii. dos and the mac 1. how can i move files between a mac and a pc? 2. how can i translate files to a dos format? 3. should i buy softpc or a real pc? iv. security 1. how can i prevent users from changing the contents of a folder? 2. how can i password protect my mac? v. no particular place to go (miscellaneous miscellanea) 1. are there any good books about the mac? 2. how do i take a picture of the screen? 3. how do i use a picture for my desktop? 4. can i replace the "welcome to macintosh" box with a picture? 5. what is autodoubler? spacesaver? more disk space? are they safe? 6. how do they compare to timestwo, stacker and edisk? 7. where did my icons go? 8. where can i find a user group? this work is copyright 1993 by elliotte m. harold. permission is hereby granted to distribute this unmodified document provided that no fee in excess of normal on-line charges is required for such distribution. portions of this document may be extracted and quoted free of charge and without necessity of citation in normal on-line communication provided only that said quotes are not represented as the correspondent's original work. permission for quotation of this document in printed material and edited on-line communication (such as the info-mac digest and tidbits) is given subject to normal citation procedures (i.e. you have to say where you got it). disclaimer: i do my best to ensure that information contained in this document is current and accurate, but i can accept no responsibility for actions resulting from information contained herein. this document is provided as is and with no warranty of any kind. corrections and suggestions should be addressed to erh0362@tesla.njit.edu. apple, macintosh, laserwriter, imagewriter, finder, hypercard and multifinder are registered trademarks and powerbook is a trademark of apple computer, inc. linotronic is a registered trademark of linotype-hell ag, inc. postscript is a registered trademark and illustrator and photoshop are trademarks of adobe systems, inc. microsoft is a registered trademark of microsoft corporation. pagemaker is a registered trademark of aldus corp. autodoubler and diskdoubler are trademarks of fifth generation systems, inc. stuffit and stuffit deluxe are trademarks of raymond lau and aladdin systems, inc. stuffit spacesaver is a trademark of aladdin systems, inc. more disk space is a trademark of alysis software corporation. timestwo is a trademark of golden triangle computers, inc. unix is a registered trademark of at&t. all other tradenames are trademarks of their respective manufacturers. this is the first part of the this faq. the second part is posted to comp.sys.mac.system and features many questions about system software. the third part is posted every two weeks in comp.sys.mac.misc. tables of contents for those two pieces are included above. please familiarize yourself with all three sections of this document before posting. all pieces are available for anonymous ftp from rtfm.mit.edu (18.172.1.27) in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers/macintosh. except for this introductory faq which appears in multiple newsgroups and is stored as general-faq.z, the name of each file has the format of the last part of the group name followed by "-faq.z", e.g the faq for comp.sys.mac.system is stored as system-faq.z and the faq for comp.sys.mac.misc is stored as misc-faq.z. rtfm stores files as compressed (.z) binary files. if you leave off the .z at the end of the file name when "getting" the file, rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you. you can also have these files mailed to you by sending an e-mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the line: send pub/usenet/news.answers/macintosh/"name" in the body text where "name" is the name of the file you want as specified above (e.g. general-faq). you can also send this server a message with the subject "help" for more detailed instructions. i have a question... (1.0) congratulations! you've come to the right place. usenet is a wonderful resource for information ranging from basic questions (how do i lock a floppy disk?) to queries that would make steve jobs himself run screaming from the room in terror. (i used resedit to remove resources init #11, wdef 34, and nvir 17 from my system file and used the hex editor to add code string #a67b45 as a patch to the sfgetfile routine so the standard file dialog box would be a nice shade of mauve. everything worked fine until i installed supercdevblaster, and now when i use the aldus driver to print from pagemaker 5.0d4 to a linotronic 6000 my system hangs. p.s. i'm running system 6.0.2 on a powerbook 170.) since the macintosh newsgroups are medium to high volume, we ask that you first peruse this faq list including at least the table of contents for the other pieces of it, check any other relevant on-line resources listed below in question 1.2, especially the faq lists for the other macintosh newsgroups, and rtfm (read the friendly manual) before posting your question. we realize that you are personally incensed that the system is taking up fourteen of your newly-installed twenty megs of ram, but this question has already made its way around the world three hundred times before, and it's developing tired feet. finally, before posting to any newsgroup (macintosh or otherwise), please familiarize yourself with the basic etiquette of usenet as described in the newsgroup news.announce.newusers. how do i use this document? where can i get it? (1.1) comp.sys.mac.faq is currently divided into multiple pieces, a general introduction which you're reading now, and specific lists for the newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system and comp.sys.mac.misc. faq lists for comp.sys.mac.wanted, comp.sys.mac.apps and comp.sys.mac.hardware are in development. when ready each part will be available in its respective newsgroup. all pieces are available via anonymous ftp from rtfm.mit.edu in the pub/usenet/news.answers/macintosh directory. except for this document itself which is named general-faq.z the pieces are named as per the last part of the newsgroup they cover followed by "-faq", e.g. system-faq.z, misc-faq.z. the .z means the file is stored compressed so you'll need to ftp it in binary mode and use either maccompress, stuffit deluxe, or the unix uncompress command to decompress it. however if you leave off the ".z" extension when you "get" the file, rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you. this introductory document is posted to all of the concerned newsgroups. the tables of contents for each of the specific faq lists are at the beginning of this file so you should be able to get at least some idea whether your question is answered anywhere else in the faq even if you don't have the other parts at hand. it's not always obvious, especially to newcomers, where a particular question or comment should be posted. please familiarize yourself with the faq lists in all the major macintosh newsgroups before posting in any of them. which questions appear in which faqs can serve as a basic guide to what posts belong to jump to a particular question search for section-number.question-number enclosed in parentheses. for example to find "where can i ftp macintosh software?" search for the string "(2.1)". to jump to a section instead of a question use a zero for the question number. what other information is available? (1.2) comp.sys.mac.faq provides short answers to a number of frequently asked questions appropriate for the usenet newsgroup comp.sys.mac.misc and comp.sys.mac.system. four other files are worthy of particular note: daryl spitzer maintains a faq list covering macintosh programming for the newsgroup comp.sys.mac.programmer. it's posted to that group weekly and available for anonymous ftp from ftp.cs.uoregon (128.223.8.8) in /pub/mac. eric rosen maintains a frequently asked questions list for comp.sys.mac.comm available in that newsgroup and from rascal.ics.utexas.edu in mac/faq (where the file you're reading now is also irregularly archived). this list answers many frequently asked questions about networking, unix and the mac, telecommunications, and foreign file formats. norm walsh has compiled an excellent faq for comp.fonts that answers a lot of questions about the various kinds of fonts and cross-platform conversion and printing. it's available in comp.fonts or by ftp from ibis.cs.umass.edu in /pub/norm/comp.fonts/faq*. finally jim jagielski maintains a faq for comp.unix.aux covering apple's unix environment, a/ux. it's posted every 2 to 3 weeks in comp.unix.aux and news.answers. it's available for anonymous ftp at jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov. which newsgroup should i post to? (1.3) there are no stupid questions, but there are misplaced ones. you wouldn't ask your english teacher how to do the definite integral of ln x between zero and one, would you? so don't ask the programmer newsgroup why your system is so slow when microsoft word is in the background. ignorance of basic netiquette is not an excuse. if you want people to help you, you need to learn their ways of communicating. posting questions to the proper newsgroup will fill your mailbox with pearls of wisdom (and maybe a few rotten oysters too :-) ). posting to the wrong newsgroup often engenders a thundering silence. for instance the most common and glaring mispost, one that seems as incongruous to dwellers in the macintosh regions of usenet as would a purple elephant to aleuts in the arctic, asking a question about networking anywhere except comp.sys.mac.comm, normally produces no useful responses. posting the same question to comp.sys.mac.comm ensures that your post is read and considered by dozens of experienced network administrators and not a few network software designers. please post to exactly one newsgroup. do not cross-post. if a question isn't important enough for you to take the extra minute to figure out where it properly belongs, it's not important enough for several thousand people to spend their time reading. for the same reason comp.sys.mac.misc should not be used as a catch-all newsgroup. the breakdown of questions between different newsgroups in this document can also serve as a reasonable guide to what belongs where. specifically questions about productivity applications (software you bought your macintosh to run, not software you bought to make your macintosh run better) should go to comp.sys.mac.apps unless the application is covered in a more specific newsgroup. communications programs, games, hypercard, compilers and databases all have more topical comp.sys.mac.* newsgroups. post questions about non-communications hardware including questions about what software is necessary to make particular hardware work to comp.sys.mac.hardware. questions about macos system software belong in comp.sys.mac.system. questions about utilities and extensions normally belong in comp.sys.mac.misc. questions about a/ux go to comp.unix.aux. detailed questions about appletalk belong in comp.protocols.appletalk. direct questions about hypercard to comp.sys.mac.hypercard. non-hypercard programming questions and questions about development environments should go to comp.sys.mac.programmer. resedit questions may be posted either to comp.sys.mac.misc, comp.sys.mac.system, or comp.sys.mac.programmer; but generally the netters who inhabit the darker recesses of comp.sys.mac.programmer are considerably more practiced at the art of resource hacking. a general exception to the above rules is that any very technical question about an application that actually begins to delve into the how's of a program as well as the what's (recent example: how does writenow which is written entirely in assembly compare to other word processors written in high level languages?) might be better addressed to the programmer newsgroup. for sale and want to buy posts should go to comp.sys.mac.wanted and misc.forsale.computers.mac only. we understand that you're desperate to sell your upgraded 128k mac to get the $$ for a powerbook 180; but trust me, anyone who wants to buy it will be reading comp.sys.mac.wanted. political and religious questions (the mac is better than windows! is not! is too! is not! is too! hey! how 'bout the amiga! what about it? is not! is too!) belong in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. anything not specifically mentioned above probably belongs in comp.sys.mac.misc. finally don't be so provincial as to consider only the comp.sys.mac newsgroups the appropriate forums for your questions. many questions about modems in comp.sys.mac.comm are much more thoroughly discussed in comp.dcom.modems. questions about mac midi are often better handled in comp.music even though it's not a macintosh specific newsgroup. shop around. usenet's a big place and not everything relevant to the macintosh happens in comp.sys.mac. 4. someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen of their twenty megabytes of ram. shouldn't i put my brilliance and wit on display for the world by posting the seventeenth response? no. frequent answers are just as boring and uninteresting as frequent questions. unless you really have something new to add to the traditional answers (such as the recent discovery that fonts in system 7.1 could eat memory) private e-mail is a much better medium for answering common questions like this one. you might want to add a mention of this faq in your e-mail response and a polite suggestion that your correspondent read it before posting future questions. i do read all the newsgroups covered here and have written a small script in microphone ii that lets me send pwfaq's (people with frequently asked questions) the section of this document that answers their question with just the click of a button so please don't feel obligated to respond to someone who cares so little about the answer to their question they can't be troubled to read the faq list to get it. ftp (2.0) where can i ftp mac software? (2.1) the three major north american internet archives of shareware, freeware, and demo software are sumex-aim.stanford.edu (36.44.0.6), mac.archive.umich.edu (141.211.165.41), and wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4) which mirrors the other two sites and several others. wuarchive often holds on to files after other sites remove them for space concerns, and still has files that were deleted from the formerly important site, rascal.ics.utexas.edu. rascal was notable for storing its files in macbinary format rather than the less efficient binhex format common at the other archives. unless otherwise noted shareware and freeware mentioned in this document should be available at the above sites. to keep traffic on the internet manageable, scandinavians should try connecting to ftp.funet.fi (128.214.6.100), ftp.lth.se (130.235.20.3), or sics.se (192.16.123.90) instead. those in the u.k. should look first at src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1). continental europeans can try nic.switch.ch (130.59.1.40), ezinfo.ethz.ch (129.132.2.72), and anl.anl.fr(192.54.179.1). australian users should try to find what they want at archie.au (139.130.4.6) which mirrors info-mac and mac.archive. japanese users will find sumex mirrored at ftp.u-tokyo.ac.jp (130.69.254.254). a fourth very important site is ftp.apple.com (130.43.2.3). this is apple's semi-official repository for system software, developer tools, source code, technical notes, and other things that come more or less straight from apple's mouth. some material at this site may not be distributed outside the u.s. or by other sites that don't have an official license to distribute apple system software. please read the various readme documents available at ftp.apple.com for the detailed info if you're connecting from outside the u.s. or if you wish to redistribute material you find here. can i get shareware by e-mail? (2.2) the info-mac archives at sumex-aim are available by e-mail from listserv@ricevm1.bitnet (alternately listserv@ricevm1.rice.edu). the listserver responds to the commands $macarch help, $macarch index, and $macarch get filename. mac archive files are available from mac@mac.archive.umich.edu. send it a message containing the words "help" and "index" (no quotes) on the first two lines of your message for instructions on getting started and a list of the files you may request. you can retrieve files from other sites by using the server at ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com. for details send it a message with just the text "help" (no quotes). where can i find application x? (2.3) if you can't find what you're looking for at one of the above sites, try telnetting to your nearest archie server or sending it an e-mail message addressed to archie with the subject "help." archie servers are located at archie.rutgers.edu (128.6.18.15, america), archie.mcgill.ca (132.206.2.3, the original archie server in canada), archie.au (139.130.4.6, australia), archie.funet.fi (128.214.6.100, scandinavia), and archie.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.3.7, the u.k. and the continent). these sites index the tens of thousands of files available for anonymous ftp. login as "archie" (no password is needed) and type "prog filename" to find what you're looking for or type "help" for more detailed instructions. for instance you would type "prog disinfectant" to search for a convenient ftp site for disinfectant. if the initial search fails to turn up the file you want, try variations on and substrings of the name. for instance if you didn't find disinfectant with "prog disinfectant", you might try "prog disi" instead. substring searches often hide the gold in a pile of dross. to avoid many erroneous matches add a ".*\.hqx" to the end of the substring, e.g. "prog disi.*\.hqx" most mac software available on the net ends in .hqx but almost no unix or pc software does. please check the above archives and archie personally before asking where you can find a particular piece of shareware. if you follow the above advice, you should almost never have to ask the net where to find a particular piece of software. can someone mail me application x? (2.4) no. nor will anyone mail you a part of a file from comp.binaries.mac that was corrupt or missed at your site. please refer to the first questions in this section to find out about anonymous ftp, archie, and automatic e-mail servers. what is .bin? .hqx? .cpt? .etc? (2.5) most files available by ftp are modified twice to allow them to more easily pass through foreign computer systems. first they're compressed to make them faster to download, and then they're translated to either a binhex (.hqx) or macbinary (.bin) format that other computers can digest. (the macintosh uses a special two-fork filing system that chokes most other computers.) binhex files are 7-bit ascii text files, while macbinary files are pure 8-bit binary data that must always be transferred using a binary how a file has been translated and compressed for transmission is indicated by its suffix. normally a file will have a name something like filename.xxx.yyy. .xxx indicates how it was compressed and .yyy indicates how it was translated. to use a file you've ftp'd and downloaded to your mac you'll need to reverse the process. most files you get from the net require a two-step decoding process. first change the binhex (.hqx) or macbinary (.bin) file to a double-clickable macintosh file; then decompress it. which programs decode which file types is covered in the table below. also note that most macintosh telecommunications programs will automatically convert macbinary files to regular macintosh files as they are downloaded. suffix: .sit .cpt .hqx .bin .pit .z .image .dd .zip .uu .tar stuffit 3.0| x x x x x compact pro| x x packit | x uutool | x maccompress| x suntar | x x x x binhex 5.0 | x binhex 4.0 | x diskdoubler| x x unzip | x diskcopy | x macutil | x x x x a few notes on the decompressors: stuffit is a family of products that use several different compression schemes. the freeware stuffit expander will unstuff all of them. versions of stuffit earlier than 3.0 (stuffit 1.5.1, stuffit classic, unstuffit, and stuffit deluxe 2.0 and 1.0) will not unstuff the increasing number of files stuffed by stuffit 3.0. you need to get a more recent version of stuffit or stuffit stuffit 3.0.5 (lite and deluxe) consistently makes smaller archives than any other macintosh compression utility. to allow maximum space for files on the various ftp sites and to keep net-bandwidth down, please compress all files you send to anonymous ftp sites with stuffit 3.0.5. uutool, maccompress, and suntar handle the popular unix formats of uuencode (.uu), compress (.z), and tar (.tar) respectively. the unix versions are often more robust than the mac products, so use them instead when that's an option. translators that allow stuffit lite to expand uuencoded and tar files are also available by anonymous ftp. macutil is dik winter's package of unix utilities to decompress and debinhex files on a workstation before downloading them to a mac. since unix stores files differently than does the mac, macutil creates macbinary (.bin) files which should be automatically converted on download. it can't decompress everything. in particular it can't decompress the new stuffit 3.0 archives. :-( however, if you need only one or two files out of an archive--for instance if you want to read the readme to find out if a program does what you need it to do before you download all of it--macutil is indispensable. it can be found at sumex-aim in the info-mac/unix directory. a few notes on the compression formats: .bin: these are macbinary files. always use a binary file transfer protocol when transferring them, never ascii or text. most files on the net are stored as .hqx instead. only rascal stores most of its files in .bin format. most communications programs such as zterm and mackermit are capable of translating macbinary files on the fly as they download if they know in advance they'll be downloading macbinary files. .image: this format is normally used only for system software, so that on-line users can download files that can easily be converted into exact copies of the installer floppies. instead of using diskcopy to restore the images to floppies, you can use steve christensen's freeware utility mountimage to treat the images on your hard disk as actual floppies inserted in a floppy drive. mountimage has a reputation for being buggy, so you should have some blank floppies and a copy of diskcopy handy just in case. .sea (.x, .x): .sea files don't merit a position in the above table because they're self-extracting. they may have been created with compact pro, stuffit, or even diskdoubler; but all should be capable of decompressing themselves when double-clicked. for some unknown reason alysis has chosen not to use this industry standard designation for self-extracting archives created with their payware products superdisk! and more disk space. instead they append either .x or .x to self-extracting archives. how can i get binhex? stuffit? etc.? (2.6) by far the easiest way to get these programs is to ask a human being to copy them onto a floppy for you. if you're at a university there's absolutely no excuse for not finding someone to give you a copy; and if you're anywhere less remote than mcmurdo sound, chances are very good that someone at a computer center, dealership, or user group can provide you with a copy of stuffit. once you have stuffit (any version) you don't need binhex. if you're such a computer geek that the thought of actually asking a living, breathing human being instead of a computer terminal for something turns you into a quivering mass of protoplasmic jelly, you can probably download a working copy of stuffit from a local bulletin board system. if you have religious objections to software gotten by any means other than anonymous ftp, then i suppose i'll mention that you can in fact ftp a working copy of stuffit though this is by far the hardest way to get it. ftp to wuarchive.wustl.edu and login. type the word "binary." hit return. type "cd mirrors/rascal.ics.utexas.edu/compression" and hit return. then "get stuffit_expander_1.0.1_sea_bin" and hit return. of course it's always possible that by the time you read this stuffit expander will have been updated and the name changed so if this fails look for something similar. if you've ftp'd straight onto your mac you should now have a self-extracting archive which will produce a working copy of stuffit expander when double-clicked. if you've ftp'd to your mainframe or unix account first, you still need to use a modem program to download it to your mac. just make sure that the mac is receiving in macbinary mode and the mainframe is sending in binary mode. if you need more details on the last step, consult the faq list for comp.sys.mac.comm and the manuals for both your mainframe and macintosh telecommunications software. how can i get binhex, stuffit, etc. from a pc? (2.7) you can't. there is absolutely no way to get an executable macintosh file from an ftp site onto a pc and then onto your mac without some software obtained by means other than anonymous ftp. you must beg, borrow, or steal the necessary software such as binhex or stuffit lite from another person. i realize this may terrify those among you who haven't left your parents' basement since you got an apple ii+ in 1980, but eventually you're going to need to link up with some human being other than your mother. (though i suppose if you're this much of a nerd you could send your mother out to get it for you.) while you're gathering your nerves for a venture into the strange and terrifying world of daylight, please don't bother the net by asking this question again. there simply is no way to move executable macintosh programs from a pc or other non-macintosh computer onto a mac without software that is not bundled with most macs. troubleshooting: what to do (before posting) when things go wrong (3.0) while the various faq lists cover a lot of specific problems, there are far more problems that aren't covered here. these are a few basic techniques you should follow before asking for help. you should probably also perform the ten-step preventative maintenance routine described in section four, especially rebuilding the desktop (4.3) and resizing the system heap (4.5). following these steps may or may not solve your problem, but it will at least make it easier for others to recommend solutions to you. identify the problem. (3.1) "microsoft word is crashing" doesn't say much. what were you doing when it crashed? can you repeat the actions that lead to the crash? the more information you provide about the actions preceding the crash the more likely it is someone can help you. the more precisely you've identified the problem and the actions preceding it (step 1) the easier it will be to tell if the following steps fix the problem. for example, "sometimes quarkxpress 3.0 crashes with a coprocessor not installed error." is not nearly as helpful as "quarkxpress 3.0 crashes when i link two text boxes on a master page when copies of those text boxes already contain text." the former will leave you wondering whether the bug remains after a given step. the latter lets you go right to the problem and see if it's still there or not. read the read me file. (3.2) many companies include a list of known incompatibilities and bugs in their read me files. often these aren't documented in the manual. read any read me files to see if any of the problems sound check for viruses. (3.3) run disinfectant or another anti-viral across your disk. virus infections are rarer than most people think, but they do occur and they do cause all sorts of weird problems when they do. reinstall the application and all its support files. (3.4) for half a dozen reasons (external magnetic fields, improperly written software, the alignment of the planets) a file on a disk may not contain the data it's supposed to contain. this can cause all types of unexplained, unusual behavior. restoring from original masters will normally fix this. reinstall the system software. (3.5) bits are even more likely to get twiddled in the system file than in the application and the effects can be just as disastrous. see question 4.6 for a detailed procedure for performing a clean if the problem continues to occur after you've taken these steps, chances are you've found either a conflict between your application and some other software or a genuine bug in the program. so it's time to isolate the problem. (3.6) you need to find the minimal system on which the problem will assert itself. here are the basic steps of isolating the cause of a system or application crash: a. run only one application at a time. occasionally applications do conflict with each other. if the problem does not manifest itself without other applications running simultaneously, you can begin launching other applications until you find the one that causes the crash. b. if you're running system 6, turn off multifinder. if you're running system 7, allot as much memory to the application as you can afford. sometimes programs just need more memory, especially when performing complicated operations. c. if you're running system 7, turn off virtual memory and 32-bit addressing. there's still an awful lot of system 7 hostile software out there including some from companies that really have no excuse. (can you say microsoft word 5.1, boys and girls? i knew you could.) some of this software only expresses its incompatibilities when certain uncommon actions are taken. d. boot from a virgin system floppy. if the problem disappears you likely have an init conflict. you need to progressively remove extensions until the problem vanishes. use a little common sense when choosing the first extensions to remove. if the problem occurs when you try to open a file, remove any inits that mess with the standard file open procedure such as super boomerang first. if the problem remains after the obvious candidates have been eliminated, either remove the remaining extensions one at a time or, if you have a lot of them, perform a binary search by removing half of the extensions at a time. once the problem disappears add half of the most recently removed set back. continue until you've narrowed the conflict down to one extension. when you think you've found the offending init restart with only that init enabled just to make sure that it and it alone is indeed causing the problem. contact technical support. (3.7) by now you should have a very good idea of when, where, and why the conflict occurs. if a tech support number is available for the software, call it. if you're lucky the company will have a work around or fix available. if not, perhaps they'll at least add the bug to their database of problems to be fixed in the next release. preventive maintenance (4.0) you wouldn't drive your car 100,000 miles without giving it a tune-up. a computer is no different. regular tune-ups avoid a lot of problems. although there are mac mechanics who'll be happy to charge you $75 or more for the equivalent of an oil change, there's no reason you can't change it yourself. the following nine-step program should be performed about every three months. trash unneeded files (4.1) many of the operations that follow will run faster and more smoothly the more free disk space there is to work with so spend a little time cleaning up your hard disk. if you're at all like me, you'll find several megabytes worth of preferences files for applications you no longer have, archives of software you've dearchived, shareware you tried out and didn't like, announcements for events that have come and gone and many other files you no longer need. if you're running system 7 you may also have several more megabytes in your trash can alone. throw them away and empty the trash. rethink your extensions (4.2) some macintoshes attract inits like a new suit attracts rain. seriously consider whether you actually need every extension in your collection. if you don't use the functionality of an extension at least every fifth time you boot up, you're probably better off not storing it in your system folder where it only takes up memory, destabilizes your system, and slows down every startup. for instance if you only read pc disks once a month, there's no need to keep accesspc loaded all the time. cutting back on your extension habit can really help avoid crashes. rebuild the desktop (4.3) the desktop file/database holds all the information necessary to associate each file with the application that created it. it lets the system know what application should be launched when you open a given file and what icons it should display where. depending on its size each application has one or more representatives in the desktop file. as applications and files move on and off your hard disk, the desktop file can be become bloated and corrupt. think of it as a congress for your mac. every so often it's necessary to throw the bums out and start with a clean slate. fortunately it's easier to rebuild the desktop than to defeat an incumbent. one warning: rebuilding the desktop will erase all comments you've stored in the get info boxes. under system 7 maurice volaski's freeware init commentkeeper will retain those comments across a rebuild. commentkeeper also works with system 6 but only if apple's desktop manager extension is also installed. to rebuild the desktop restart your mac and, as your extensions finish loading, depress the command and option keys. you'll be presented with a dialog box asking if you want to rebuild the desktop and warning you that "this could take a few minutes." click ok. it will take more than a few minutes. the more files you have the longer it will take. if you're running system 6 you may want to turn off multifinder before trying to rebuild the desktop. if you're experiencing definite problems and not just doing preventive maintenance, you may want to use fifth generation's freeware init desktop reset. desktop reset completely deletes the desktop file before rebuilding it, thus eliminating possibly corrupt data structures. zap the pram and reset the clock (4.4) all macs from the original 128k thin mac to the quadra 950 contain a small amount of battery powered ram to hold certain settings that properly move with the cpu rather than with the disk such as which disk to boot from. unfortunately this "parameter ram" can become corrupted and cause unexplained crashes. to reset it under system 7 hold down the command, option, p, and r keys while restarting your mac. under system 6 hold down the command, option, and shift keys while selecting the control panel from the apple menu. click yes when asked if you want to zap the parameter ram. since you've erased almost all the settings in the general control panel, you should now reset them to whatever you want. the one setting that zapping the pram does not erase is the date and time; but since the internal clock in the macintosh is notoriously inaccurate you'll probably want to take this opportunity to reset it anyway. resize the system heap (4.5) even after rethinking their extensions as per step two most people still have at least half a row of icons march across the bottom of their screen every time they restart. all these extensions (and most applications too) need space in a section of memory called the system heap. if the system heap isn't big enough to comfortably accommodate all the programs that want a piece of it, they all start playing king of the mountain on the system heap, knocking each other off to get bigger pieces for themselves and trying to climb back on after they get knocked off. all this fighting amongst the programs severely degrades system performance and almost inevitably crashes the mac. if you're using system 7, your macintosh will automatically resize the system heap as necessary; but if you're running system 6 it's important to set your system heap size large enough to manage all your extensions and applications. by default this size is set to 128k, way too small for most macs with any extensions at all. the system heap size is stored in the normally non-editable boot blocks of every system disk. bill steinberg's freeware utility bootman not only lets you resize your system heap but even checks how much memory your heap is already using so it can tell how much needs to be allocated. if you're running system 6, get bootman, use it, and be amazed at how infrequently your macintosh crashes. reinstall the system software (4.6) system files can become corrupt and fragmented, especially if you've stored lots of fonts and desk accessories inside them. merely updating the system software will often not fix system file corruption. i recommend doing a clean reinstall. here's how: 1. boot from the installer floppy of your system disks. 2. copy any non-standard fonts and desk accessories out of your system file into a temporary suitcase. 3. trash the system file on your hard disk. also trash the finder, multifinder, da handler, and all other standard apple extensions like control panel and chooser. these will all be replaced in the new installation. if you're running or installing system 7, move everything in the extensions, control panels, and preferences folders into the top level of the system folder. 4. rename the system folder. any name other than system folder is fine. 5. double-click the installer script on your system disk. then choose customize... select the appropriate software for your model mac and printer. you could do an easy install instead, but that will only add a lot of extensions and code you don't need that waste your memory and disk space. 6. once installation is finished, move everything from the temporary folder you created in step 4 into the new system folder. if you're asked if you want to replace anything, you forgot to take something out in step 3. you'll need to replace things individually until you find the duplicate piece. 7. reinstall any fonts or da's you removed in step 2. 8. reboot. you should now have a clean, defragmented system file that takes up less memory and disk space and a much more stable system overall. disk utilities (4.7) much like system files hard disks have data structures that occasionally become corrupted affecting performance and even causing data loss. apple includes disk first aid, a simple utility for detecting and repairing hard disk problems, with its system disks. it's also available for anonymous ftp from ftp.apple.com in the directory dts/mac/sys.soft/hdsc. even if you have an earlier version, you should get the latest version (7.1) from ftp.apple.com and run it on all your hard disks. several companies have released payware disk utilities that detect and repair considerably more problems than disk first aid though, interestingly, none of them detect and repair everything that disk first aid does. the three most effective for general work are central point's mactools deluxe 2.0, fifth generation's public utilites, and symantec's norton utilities for the macintosh 2.0. a department or work group should have all of these as well as disk first aid since none of them fix everything the others do. for individuals mactools ($48 street) is about half the price of norton ($94 street) or public utilities ($98 street) so, features and ease of use being roughly equal, i recommend mactools. all of these products occasionally encounter problems they can't fix. when that happens it's time to backup (4.7) and reformat (4.9). backing up (4.8) this is one part of preventative maintenance that should be done a lot more often than every three months. the simplest back up is to merely copy all the files on your hard disk onto floppies or other removable media. if you keep your data files separate from your application and support files then it's easy to only back up those folders which change frequently. nonetheless every three months you should do a complete backup of your hard disk. a number of programs are available to make backing up easier. apple included a very basic full backup application with system 6. with the performas apple ships a new apple backup utility that can backup the entire disk or just the system folder onto floppies. the previously mentioned norton utilities for the mac and mactools deluxe 2.0 include more powerful floppy backup utilities that incorporate compression and incremental backups. finally if you're lucky enough to have a tape drive, network server, or removable media device to use for backups, you should check out the more powerful payware utilities redux ($49 street, doesn't support tape drives) and diskfit pro ($74 street). there are no freely available backup utilities other than the old hd backup from system 6. disk defragmentation (4.9) as disks fill up it gets harder and harder to find enough free space in the same place to write large files. therefore the operating system will often split larger files into pieces to be stored in different places on your hard disk. as files become more and more fragmented performance can degrade. there are several ways to defragment a hard disk. the most tedious but cheapest method is to backup all your files, erase the hard disk (and you might as well reformat while you're at it. see question 4.10.), and restore all the files. a number of payware utilities including norton utilities for the mac and mac tools deluxe can defragment a disk in place, i.e. without erasing it. although the ads for all these products brag about their safety, once you've bought the software and opened the shrink-wrap they all warn you to back up your disk before defragmenting it in case something does go wrong. there are no freeware or shareware disk defragmenters so please don't annoy the net by asking for one. reformat your hard disk (4.10) just as a floppy disk needs to be initialized before use, so a hard disk must be formatted before it can hold data. you don't need to reformat every three months; but when your system is crashing no matter what you try, reformatting is the ultimate means of wiping the slate clean. reformatting your hard disk may even gain you a few extra megabytes of space. not all hard disks are created equal. some can hold more data than others. to facilitate mass production and advertising without a lot of asterisks (* 81.3 megabytes is the average formatted capacity. your mileage may vary.) apple often formats drives to the lowest common denominator of drive capacity. when you reformat there's no reason at all not to reclaim whatever unused space apple's left on your disk. unlike floppies hard disks need a special program to initialize them. most hard disks come with formatting software. apple's disks and system software ship with hd sc setup, a minimal disk formatter which will format apple brand hard drives only. most other manufacturers ship appropriate formatting software with their hard drives. normally this will be all you need to reformat your hard disk. a number of general-purpose formatters are also available which go beyond the bundled software to include features like encryption, password protection, multiple partitioning, faster disk access, system 7 compatibility, and even compression. two of the best are the payware drive7 and hard disk toolkit personal edition ($49 street for either). while there are one or two freeware formatters available, none are likely to be superior to the ones bundled with your hard disk. powerbook users should be sure to turn off sleep and processor cycling before reformatting their hard drives no matter what software they use. otherwise disk corruption, crashes, and data losses are a very good possibility. elliotte rusty harold department of mathematics elharo@shiva.njit.edu new jersey institute of technology erh0362@tesla.njit.edu newark, nj 07102 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52005">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52005" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi! my co-worker has just attached a magneto-optical drive to his mac. works great for him. however, he tried to turn on file sharing, but it wouldn't work. had some message about "not all volumes are shareable" so - has anyone had success in sharing mos? if so, please tell me how! vanover@atc.boeing.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52010">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52010" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 several weeks ago, i described a problem with my apple high-resolution monitor and promised to summarize replies received by e-mail. to recapitulate: occasionally, every two or three hours or so, my monitor momentarily loses sync. the entire raster image bounces down about an eighth of an inch or so, then rights itself. this usually happens right after i close a large window, highlight a large area, or do something that radically alters the image on the screen. sometimes, though, it happens with no provocation whatsoever. i have received a bewildering range of replies. at one extreme was a man, clearly quite knowledgable about monitors, who said that the problem was that the 13" monitor's power supply simply couldn't always keep up with sudden changes of the raster image; the rapid change from a largely light screen to a largely dark one overtaxed the monitor's power supply. there was no fix available, he said, because nothing was really wrong. (i guess he meant that the flaw was so fundamental that it had to be endured.) this seemed quite persuasive and i would have been tempted to adopt an attitude of stoicism, except for a reply from a 13" monitor owner who discovered that this very problem is documented in the apple service technical procedures, volume 3, under the heading jitter correction. the section describes a fix involving the replacement of a capacitor, the adjustment of a potentiometer, or, failing that, the swap of a circuit board. i would be grateful for a discussion among those who have had experience with this sort of thing. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52012">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52012" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 that was my point. :-) sony did manufacture the powerbook 100 under license from apple. and it actually works! yup, i bought the darn thing cause it was sturdy. i carry it around in an unpadded (unless you consider all the papers and files and folders) bookbag (shoulder strap little job from eddie bauer). i've travelled cross country several times with walkman, discman and tapes, books and computer all piled in their. my pb100 works happily, and i'm typing on it right now... it has a global village teleport 9600 v.32 internal send/receive fax-modem, and i just love it. unfortunately, i have seen a new duo 230 that a friend bought as a primary computer (i have a mac iisi and se30 as primary home computers, and quadra and iici at work in the lab). and while amazed at the lightness of it, i was kinda shocked at the flimsiness of the screen. i'm sure it'd break real easy.... (sorry, but other than my trinitron, everything else i've ever bought from sony has failed. why did i keep trying? because i'm 'tupid.) aw, c'mon. i've got a sony vcr, a sony tv (both must be over two years old by now), a sony camcorder (five months old?), and of course an apple 13" rgb monitor with a sony tube that i'm never going to part with. and the cd-300i drive in my month-old centris 650 is in fact a sony. maybe it's a question of personal compatibility. maybe your body puts out the wrong polarity of static electricity, or something... :-) geez, we are a sony familly. our neighbor works for zeinth and hates it (always asks why we didn't buy zeinth products). nice guy nevertheless. we still have two working sony color trinitrons from 1972 and 1974. older one is on it's second picture tube, but both work. now they're relegated to the old 8-bit atari computer and atari 2600 game machinces, as well as our not-that-old younger sister's nintendo game machine. sony doesn't make tv's like they used to though, the newer mexican assembly-line tv's are not that reliable or sharp anymore... dad also just got a 35" direct-view sony (god, the thing weighs a ton!). :) still, where would we be without trinitrons, cd players, or the veritable walkman???? -shishin "squish" yamada squish@endor.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52014">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52014" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i heard that there will be an apple price drop coming june 30th. can anyone second this rumour? a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography, ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur, malaysia. "the mind is the forerunner of all states." 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52015">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52015" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have a pb 100 that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation, to take advantage of the educational discount. to those who have recently bought or sold a pb 100, what kind of price did you get? info on any config of pb100 appreciated. thanks. cam daly several months ago i bought a 4/40 pb100 with external floppy, appletalk remote access, a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition, used for us$900. i considered it a very good buy and am very *cosy* with my little baby now... :-) put me down for a pb100 4/20 with ext. floppy, appletalk remote acces, ac adapter, and fresh out of box (was used, but buyer switched to 140 on arrival and sold unopened box. purchased last october for $925. later i bought a used powerport v.32 9600 bps internal fax-modem for something like $225, i'm using right now! works great! :) no real complaints. i love my portable system (got a color home setup also. mac ii). reasoning was that matlab programs at school and other simulations of dynamic control systems sometimes took hours (or overnight) to run, tying up my mac ii. i got the pb100 with fast modem to do light work and on-the-run stuff. i figured i'd give it to my little sister next year when she goes to college. it's running system 7.1 now without any problems. also i sometimes do dec4015 terminal emulations with matlab on our university's vax_vms (nice thing that it benchmarks itself as an average of 230 times faster than a mac iifx). so, the pb100 just does graphical output and terminal emulation (not too hard at all for it). it was a fabulous setup !!!! :) weeee!!! (by the way, all matlab software was on class accounts. i was also the ta for a class that used simulab/simulink. we had site-license and take-home, then-destroy later site-release licenses... no pirating there, incase you're wondering.... great program!!! ) just like to add, whatever future system you get, you can almost never get enuff memory.... buy it while it's cheap - that is buy it when you get the computer since it's usually cheaper than upgrading... i always run out of disk space... but i have a syquest on the mac iisi, so i never worried about space before... got several carts). -shishin "squish" yamada squish@endor.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52019">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52019" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i just got a duo230 and a duodock, and am quite happy with it all - except i need to use the dock with a) two page grey scale monitor (apple) b) two page color monitor (apple) what is net wisdom on which vendor/video card would be preferable? thanks in advance. ---jon--- jon sticklen------------------------tele: +517-353-3711 ai/kbs lab - comp sci dept----------fax: +517-336-1061 a714 wells hall-----------------office in a392 eng bldg michigan state university east lansing, mi 48824-1027--- home tele: +517-337-5690 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52022">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52022" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone know it the macintosh lc has pin 7 (the pin that enables better flow control)? i know the lc 1 & 2 doesn't have it, but what about 3? i have had conflicting reports so far... please help. thank you. (btw, do you use reznova's novalink? yes? e-mail me!) --- via uci v1.35 (c-net amiga) dennis t. cheung the dtc(tm) corporation of america america online: dtc internet: dtc%mlinknet@hotcity.com disclaimer: you never read this message & this message doesn't exist. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52023">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52023" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi folks, subject line says it all: which accelerators can you recommend for a mac lc ii? sorry, if this a faq. steffo! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52024">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52024" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a local dealer is offering mac ii vi machines equipped with kodak multi- session compatible cd-rom drives for what seems like an attractive price: $1500. i've used many other models up to a ii ci, but this would be the first i could have my own mac. is it safe to buy an about-to-be discontinued model such as this. i'd like to yank the cd-rom drive out, put it in a housing and share it with my pc. is this feasible? the only info i have on the ii vi is that it is relatively slow (16mhz), has an 68030 chip with a math coprocessor. i want to add a non-apple portrait monitor and use this machine for hypercard stack design. is this a good buy, or would i be wasting my money? i would appreciate some advice. thanks! robert matthews grfg128@twnmoe10.bitnet.edu.tw (taiwan) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52025">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52025" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 re: methods for attaching heat sink to processor. go to radio shack and buy a tube of heat sink compound. it comes in a little blue and white tube with a black screw on cap. at radio shack, it's catalog number 276-1372. it's a mix of silicone and zinc oxide, and conducts heat very well. plus, it's usually, you would smear a bit between the chip and the sink, and then bolt or clamp the sink down, but if you don't move your mac, gravity and the stickiness of the goo should be more than suffcient to hold things in place. just make sure you remember it's in there, in case you tilt your mac and jar it hard enough to shake it loose. you wouldn't want a loose piece of metal running around inside your mac. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52026">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52026" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we are having problems with a bunch of se/30's in one of our labs. the fault is that the machines either bomb or freeze when attempting to write to their internal floppies. the internal floppies have been tested on their own and are fine, which means that it is a main board fault. the machines all come from the same batch. the date code on the back of the machines is december 1990. 1. do you own a machine from this batch. 2. has any user had experience with this fault. 3. was it a warranty repair. any feedback would be appreciated and i will post the results to the net. mail: william a russell, computing science dept., tel: (041) 339 8855 x5322 glasgow univ., 17 lilybank gardens, glasgow g12 8qq, uk. arpa: bill%dcs.glasgow.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk usenet:bill@dcs.glasgow.uucp janet: bill@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs usebangnet: ...mcsun!ukc!dcs.glasgow.ac.uk!bill 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52029">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52029" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 here's another question by a hesitant powerbook purchaser. i want to be able to run mathematica and would like to hear some comments from the gallery about this. how much slower does the program run on a machine without an fpu (namely a pb160) versus a machine with an fpu (namely a pb170). what types of calculations get bogged down the most. i primarily due moderately simple algebra, integrals which can be dealt with analytically and plotting including 3-d plots. i don't do a lot of numerical work. would a pb160 with a lot of memory ( and the very nice video port ) be sufficient or should i really try to get an fpu for this type of work? is a pb170 with 8mb faster than a pb160 with 12 or 16mb. all comments appreciated. please respond by email: ross@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52032">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52032" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i recall that ehman 'died'... can anyone suggest what the problem is when the picture jumps about an inch any direction? two page monchrome monitor connected to newlife accelerator and video board in an se... at the end of the work day, several hours with power on, the picture will occasionally jitter a couple of times and then remain calm for a few minutes. then it does more shaking... the environment around the computer appears to be stable. nothing newly introduced near the computer. any ideas? please e-mail to carsona@sfu.ca or reply here. also... has anyone used ehman two page with powerbook video? what was required? just a cable adapter? thanks for any help! carsona@sfu.ca ps i think the monitor is a zenith mechanism... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52034">
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul paul nevai nevai@mps.ohio-state.edu dept math - ohio state university 1-614-292-3317 (office) columbus, ohio 43210-1174, u.s.a. 1-614-292-1479 (math dept fax) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52035">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52035" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone know if there is a carrying case for the centris 610? thanks for any info. saiid paryavi paryavi@matt.ksu.ksu.edu saiid@cis.ksu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52036">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52036" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul paul nevai nevai@mps.ohio-state.edu dept math - ohio state university 1-614-292-3317 (office) columbus, ohio 43210-1174, u.s.a. 1-614-292-1479 (math dept fax) i keep my 13" apple trinitron and iisi on for months at a time...doesn't seem to cause any problems. | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52038">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52038" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a 10-18% price reduction, according to 'newsbytes'. is this definite? does anyone know when it will take effect? and what is 'newsbytes'? i posted that article. unfortunately i haven't seen any further notice of it. they advertize cheaper duo's at the u here for next wek. according to the articel though, the price cut had to be effective the same day. newsbyte is a group of news like clarinet. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52039">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52039" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers (cyclone and tempest), i am in need of some info. anything would be greatly appreciated. breedsa@wkuvx1.bitnet according to macweek of 2-22-93: the cyclone will come in the same metal minitower case as the quadra 800, while the tempest will share the low-slung case of the centris 610. apple will offer a miniature video camera that can be mounted above the user's monitor or moved about on the end of its cable to take pictures of objects or documents. taking advantage of the 32-bit digital signal processor (dsp) built into the systems' logic boards, the camera will be able to put an image measuring 360 by 288 pixels, with 256 gray levels, on the screen. users will be able to install supplementary lenses that can record detail as fine as the wire bonds on an integrated circuit. the camera is expected to cost between $150 and $250. the systems will ship with all the software needed to put apple's casper voice-recognition technology to work; users apparently will have to purchase an operational high-fidelity microphone. the two models will talk as well as listen. a new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent by applications to phonemes and then pass them to a speech synthesizer. the cyclone will include a 40mhz '040, three nubus slots and support for up to 128mb of ram. the tempest will use a 25mhz lc040, lacking an fpu, and hold up to 68mb of ram; it will have a single slot that will require a nubus adapter and have room for only 7-inch nubus cards. users will be able to update the tempest's process but not the cyclone's. for more get the 02.22.93 issue of macweek. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52040">
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 repost - due to net problems i have problems with the fdhd on a iicx that ekg reports is rom revision 376. i had reports that this mac was having trouble formatting disks and by the time i got to it, the fdhd just would not respond although all other functions were fine. i checked the voltages on the db19 external drive connector and pin 6 showed no volts with 7 and 8 giving 25volts unloaded. the power supply is an astec and i sent it away for repair. with the power supply reinstalled, i now get the following error: with the internal fdhd connected, the mac boots fine but on completion of boot cycle an alert displays "the disk is unreadable - do you want to eject it?". for every combination of response, the alert reappears within approx 2 seconds and this error is continuous. the fdhd does spin but there is no head seeking and the fdhd is incapable of ejecting the disk. this error sequence occurs regardless of whether there is a floppy in the drive or not. pin 6 on the db19 external connector shows 1.2v, pins 7 and 8 show 10.75v. with the internal fdhd disconnected, the mac boots fine and works great (macekg reports no errors). the db19 external connector now shows no voltage on pin 6 but pins 7 and 8 show 10.75v. now, the internal fdhd may be fubar, but i have an apple 800k external drive that gives exactly the same symptoms as the internal drive when connected to either the external db19 or the internal connector at j16 (after suitable surgery to the external drive). the voltages at j16 (with the internal fdhd disconnected) are as follows: pin volts pin volts 1 - 2 5 3 - 4 5 5 - 6 5 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 5 11 - 12 - 13 10.75 14 5 15 10.75 16 5 17 10.75 18 - 19 10.75 20 5 this machine has a swim which i don't think ekg tests. i have tested all diodes and pica fuses and can find no problems. does anybody have any ideas ? best wishes, paul woodman praxis plc, \ / | the software engineering company of touche ross, \ / ___ ___ _| 20 manvers street, bath, ba1 1px, uk. \ /\ / / / / / / | \ / tel +44 225 444700 xt228 \/ \/ /__/ /__/ /__| \/ fax +44 225 465205. _________________________/ woody@praxis.co.uk 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52041">
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 anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call? steven langlois slang@bnr.ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52042">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52042" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi! i want to change the default paper cassette on our laserwriter pro 630 from the 250-sheet cassette to the 500-sheet cassette. right now, we all have to change it manually on the print dialog each time we print. if we forget, the document is printed on the letterhead paper we have in the 250-sheet cassette. any ideas? --michael michael p. hecht | internet: michael_hecht@mac.sas.com sas institute inc.; cary, nc usa | applelink: sas.hecht 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52045">
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 wanted: digidesgn audiomedia card for the mac email if you have one for sale. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52046">
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement. true, there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage, but the internal power supply is well-protected. (i've turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem). the monitor is the same. to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity -- twice as much as a television, possibly more. turn it off when you're not using it. it'll save you money and the world a few more resources. the problem with turing your computer on and off constantly is not due to the power surge at start up. it is due to thermal fatigue. you turn on your computer, it heats up, and everything expands. you turn it off, it cools off, and everything contracts. there is a limited number of cycles of this that any component can take before it fails. modern electronics are much more robust in this respect than their predeccesors. in fact portable computers are designed with this in mind since the sleep function that extends battery life also greatly increaces the number of thermal cycles that occur. as a rule of thumb, if i am not going to use my computer (and this includes the monitor) in the next 4-6 hours, i turn it off (i always dim the monitor when not in use to prolong the life of the phosphor). i tend to think that with the pace of technical innovation in the computer industry you should be much less concerned with the fatigue life of your equipment and more concerned with how long your particular architecture will be supported by hardware and software vendors. :") charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52048">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52048" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 sorry all the personal replies i sent about help with unlockfolder eaten by my mail program (my fault), so i'd like to thank everyone who sent me info! kristen lepa * origin: leo technology (603)432-2517/432-0922 (hst/v32) (1:132/189) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52055">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52055" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 is it going to be possible to upgrade a c610 to tempest? if so, how...motherboard switch? probably gonna be expensive right? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52056">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52056" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we just received an appleone color scanner for our lab. however, i am having trouble getting reasonable scanned output when printing a scanned photo on a laserwriter iig. i have tried scanning at a higher resolution and the display on the screen appears very nice. however, the printed version is coming out ugly! is this due to the resolution capabilities of the printer? or are there tricks involved to get better quality? or should we be getting something (like photoshop) to "pretty up" the image? i will appreciate any suggestions. thanks in advance, | kris schroeder | schroede@cps.msu.edu | ai/kbs lab, michigan state university 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52057">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52057" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 so is $99 a good deal or not, i still don't know. i would say that is not a good deal. in june's macworld, river (formerly maya computer) advertised a daystar 33 mhz powercache with 68882 for $295! can you believe it? i know prices would be falling, but geeze! actually, the 295 is for the 33 mhz powercard, not the universal powercache. the 33 mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can be had for about $500 (still not a bad deal). i believe the powercard is one generation older than the universal powercache, and the one primary difference is that the powercard is machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor. both cards are 68030 based. i'm not sure if the hardware or software with the powercard is otherwise different from the powercache (perhaps someone could enlighten me?). i would also add that i called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast. rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel, md 20723 (301)953-5000, x7627 as a side note, in that same ad (macworld 6/93), they are selling the 50mhz powercache for the iisi with fpu for $575. for those thinking of upgrading to the 040 33 mhz turbo (an upgrade costs $600 direct from daystar), this comes out to $1175, about $200 cheaper than what most mail-order companies charge. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52062">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52062" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 in light of the 100 letter over "what was the lisa" i thought i'd start a new one. what was the iivx? i hear it was some machine that predated the main 040 line by about 6 mos, but used obsolete tech. rumor has it that several were sold.... <for those iivx owners whose panties are in a bunch now, this is just a joke.> <really, i'm just tired of the repetitive nature of this type of dialog> <plus, flaming is stress relief> 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52065">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52065" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? well the monitor is consistently the largest power drain on your electric bill when you are looking at your computer set-up, especially if you have a large (16" or greater) color monitor. generally what i do is leave my mac on all the time, except for the occasional resart or syetem crash, but i turn my monitor off each night before i leave my office. i also turn off after dark when i do this, since there is no reason to have the screen saver running when there is no picture being displyed on the monitor's tube. actually, i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day. really? what makes you think this? the q700 file server in my office has been on for the last 2 months, straight, and it hasn't had any problems. (note: i also keep the monitor for the file server turned off when i'm not actually working on the server itself.) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52069">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52069" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 so i finally decided to risk this upgrade, faq in hand i've gathered the pieces together. the only problem is that i haven't been able to find anyone who's even heard of thermal tape/glue (which is what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink) i am just tempted to use duct tape here.... anyone hae any ideas for me for attaching the heat sink to the processor?? much thanks. -therzog@willamette.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52070">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52070" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 ||+----------+ | are +-------------+ ||| all the | | there | ===========+| ||| pc news | | any? |' mac se || ||| that fit | | | |' or || ||| on tv | | | |' classic || ||+----------+ | v |' [68000] || ++-------+++++++ +--+ frame | +--------+ | ______::::::| | [video]'""""'|=--+ | grabber | | mac +---=| ------======| |________llllll| | board +---+ vision | ||||||||||||||| i know of several nubus frame-grabber boards but wonder if there might be similar ones for the lesser macs (those without slots), something permitting instant freezing of a video picture (pal) and feeding it in without jaggies to a simple digitizer like macvision (which takes 22 secs to scan a picture, so a frame grabber is a necessity). the objective is 512*342 1bit/ pixel (b/w) pictures stored in hypercard... have tried using top-quality vcr with freeze-frame function but the screens come out full of streaks and garbage. please reply only to ----------> ianf@random.se and i'll summarize to the net (cannot read such high-volume group as is c.s.m.h) thanks! __ian "hit (r) now" feldman <ianf@random.se> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52072">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52072" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement. true, there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage, but the internal power supply is well-protected. (i've turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem). the monitor is the same. to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity -- twice as much as a television, possibly more. turn it off when you're not using it. it'll save you money and the world a few more resources. -kelley- thomas kelley boylan, powerpc, ibm austin, kelleyb@austin.ibm.com i buy and pay for my own opinions 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52073">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52073" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i saw this question posted a week or so ago, but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net. what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook? the earlier questioner wonderd if this would be too much of a load for the pb and as i want to connect just such a beast i am curious. i haven't got a pb yet so i can't rtfm but i assume that a standard keyboard with a mouse would be ok as the spec sheet i read mentioned connecting an external keyboard. but is the extended plus mouse pushing it? any help gratefully recieved. i will summarise to the net if necessary. thanks, john collins. p.s. i am thinking of a pb160 but i assume that this would apply to all pb's. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52076">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52076" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 jerry salem writes is there a good (cheap) way to hook up two monitors to my lc and is there anyone out there that has done this, how do you like it? jerry@slack.med.upenn.edu the only way to do that would be to add a video card to the lc expansion port. this doesn't have to be that expensive; several companies have portrait monitor/video card bundles available. check a current macworld/macuser. --nizam / * \ nizam arain \ what makes the universe || || (217) 384-4671 / so hard to comprehend | \___/ | internet: narain@uiuc.edu \ is that there is nothing \_____/ nextmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu / to compare it with. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52077">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52077" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 does anyone know how to zap the pram on the duo 230. inaddition i have recently noticed that checking the ram left in the finder on the duo 230 4/80 reveals the normal 1800k for the system file but only about 1/10 to 1/5 of the bar is actually highlighted implying that only 2-300k is being used for the system. what gives? i have had no crashes yet or other software problem... thanks... arun mathur... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52079">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52079" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone else gotten a system error when trying to print from mathematica 2.1 to the hp deskwriter. i'm using a pb170 with: 8 megs ram sys 7.0.1 + tuneup hp print drivers etc.... it works find on an imagewriter i. i'd like to get as much information as possible before i send a bug report to wolfram. -kurt (whitmore@iastate.edu) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52080">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52080" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 anyone have a price quote/vendor for the vx to centris 650 upgrade? i've been quoted a price of $2401 till august 15th after which it will cost $2732. this of course doesn't include the trade-in rebate of $1300 for the vx board. thus for $1101 one gets a centris 650, 8 meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet. anyone else have any info? this price is from the university of illinois micro-order center, are there any other vendors who offer similar prices? j-beda@uiuc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52083">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52083" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 anyone have any experiences to report using phonenet pc? we're thinking about investing in one of these cards for our lone pc at work. ken gantz kgantz@cup.portal.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52087">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52087" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers (cyclone and tempest), i am in need of some info. anything would be greatly appreciated. breedsa@wkuvx1.bitnet according to macweek of 2-22-93: [ description deleted] any idea on prices?? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52088">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52088" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the duo's can drive apple's 16" monitor at 832x624 resolution and 256 colors, i think. what non-apple 16-17" monitors can also be used? would a multisync nec-5fg work as well at the same resolution? what are the outstanding points of the apple monitor when compared with these other monitors? -- denis 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52090">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52090" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 here is how i modified my quadra 700 for higher speed. previously i had been using a variable speed overdrive for accelerating my cpu but this modification is testing out as more stable at higher speeds. your mileage may vary. the top speed you achieve cannot be predicted before hand. my personal q700 has tested fine up to 32 mhz thus far. i didn't have higher speed clock oscillators on hand to test higher clock oscillators (4 pin ttl variety) you will need a selection of speeds beginning at 50 mhz on up. the cpu will run at 1/2 the oscillator speed. the original one is a 50 mhz unit. i recommend getting a 50 mhz clock in case you damage the existing one. i obtained my clock oscillators from digikey 1-800-344-4539 for less than $5.00 each. some of their part numbers are: 50 mhz ttl clock oscillator (part # x121) 62 mhz ttl clock oscillator (part # x136) 66 mhz ttl clock oscillator (part # ctx137) don't get the half size clock oscillators. they won't fit. there are also cmos clock oscillators. i haven't tried one in a quadra. (they work fine in iisi's) socket: obtain a 4 pin socket which is in the same form factor as a 14 pin dip package. alternatively, use 4 machined socket pins from an augat style socket. just cut them out of the socket. cooling fan: a very small 12 volt fan to keep the cpu cool is a must. my vso came with a specially modified heatsink which had a fan built onto it. it had a pass-through connector which tapped into the hard drive power cable. you should rig up something similar or risk frying your cpu. 1) insert usual disclaimer and antistatic warnings here. 2) remove the top lid of the machine. you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower. follow the usual anti-static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this. unplug all cables, wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac. 3) remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up. the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply. you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply. leave that alone. the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release. 4) look at the rear of the tower assembly. you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive, a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive. disconnect all these from the motherboard. the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it. 5) unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount 6) look down the posterior, cylindrical section of the plastic tower. a phillips head screw is at the base. remove it, taking care not to drop it into the case. a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful 7) remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower. this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly. slide the entire tower assembly 1 cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case. 8) remove the interrupt switch assembly. it is a strangely shaped plastic device at the left, front edge of the motherboard. pull the middle, rear plastic prong up and forward. the entire device will release. 9) unplug the speaker cable. squeeze the plastic tab on the speaker to free it then swing it backwards to free it from the case. 10) remove the motherboard form the case. lift the front right corner of the motherboard about 1 mm. this allows it to clear the clear plastic power light guide. slide the motherboard forward about 1 cm. the motherboard then comes directly out. 11) locate the 50 mhz clock crystal. it is a small metal box near the cpu chip. note and remember its orientation. the new clock oscillators must be aligned with pin 1 in the same orientation. very carefully desolder and remove the old clock oscillator. some of the pins may be bent over. simply desolder then unbend them. be sure your desoldering iron is hot enough before heating the board. i used a suction desoldering iron to accomplish this task. this is not appropriate for a first soldering experience. the motherboard is a multi-layer design with very fine traces - easily damaged without proper care. 12) install your socket or socket pins where the old oscillator once was. 13) put a 50 mhz clock oscillator into the new socket. you could use the old clock but it has solder on its pins. this may come of inside the socket and cause corrosion problems later. i suggest using a new 50 mhz clock. 14) install your cooling fan system to complete the modification. 14) reinsert the motherboard and slide it into place. 15) snap in the interrupt switch assembly and speaker to lock the mother board firmly. plug the speaker wire back into the motherboard. 16) reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about 1 cm posterior of its intended position. lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case. once fully down, slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place. 17) reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables. dont't forget the floppy drive cable. 18) replace the phillips head screw 19) drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in. 20) plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount. 21) reattach your cables and power cords. cross your fingers and turn on the mac. it should make the usual power on chord. if it doesn't, something is amiss. immediately turn of the power and recheck your handiwork. if all is not well, you have my sincere condolences. hopefully, all will work normally. turn the machine back off and replace the 50 mhz clock oscillator with a faster one. reboot and be astounded. you will need to fully test the machine for many hours before deciding a particular speed is truly usable. with my vso, a machine lock-up might take 8 hours of operation to occur. in the brief time since modifying my clock oscillator (36 hours) i have not had a single good luck to all who attempt this modification. there is a small but real risk, but you could well reach quadra 950 speeds or higher with less than $50 in parts. guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52091">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52091" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 any idea on the price range of the cyclone or the tempest? (compared to current line of computers, where will the new ones fall in price) keeper: heh heh. stop! what is your name? arthur: it is arthur, king of the britons. keeper: what is your quest? arthur: to seek the holy grail. keeper: what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? arthur: what do you mean? an african or european swallow? keeper: what? i don't know that! auuuuuuuugh! bedemir: how do know so much about swallows? arthur: well, you have to know these things when you're a king you know. brian lee smith blsmith@eos.ncsu.edu north carolina state university 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52096">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52096" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi! i am looking for a source of lithium batteries for an original mac ii. the number on the battery is er 1/2 aa. local electronic shops & computer stores freak when inquire. the fastest any of them can get a battery to me is 2-3 weeks for about $20. anything faster and/or cheaper is welcome! please respond to me via e-mail and i will summarize to the net. note my e-mail address differs from the return address of this posting. thanks in advance for your help! michael stovsky mps@cbvox.att.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52097">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52097" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 ok i want to get a color mac i don't care if it is an lc or a mac ii or what but i want to go to a color machine. i'd prefer to trade my present mac se system plus some cash or other equipment for the color system as right now i'm not full of the $$$ to buy a color system here's what my mac se system has... mac se 4/20 with internal 800k drive 20 meg external external 800k drive imagewriter ii with 4 color ribbon stuff that can go with it...... i'm willing to include both of the 9600 modems and the 2400 baud modem if the deal is right. keep in mind that both the 9600 modems are less than a month old and the multitech modem sells for about $440 or so. multitech multimodem ii (9600 data/fax) u.s. robotics sportster (9600 data) microcom qx/12k (normally will connect at only 2400 as highest but it will do faster if connected to another microcom) the usr and the multitech are both brand-new if interested send me e-mail at dleonard@wixer.bga.com | primary: | judy's stamps (misc. topical stamps. from dogs..| | dleonard@wixer.bga.com | to cats to baseball and many many other subjects| | secondary: | for stamp information call tony leonard at......| | dleonard@wixer.cactus.org| (512) 837-0022 this is a business only number!!!| 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52098">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52098" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 this poll was conducted to help users decide whether or not to alter their iisi clock oscillator. i have attempted to gather as many case histories as possible to find some estimate of success and risk. the number of replies probably shows how rare this modification is but give the impression that success rates may be higher than the previous 80% estimate. 24 of 24 machines were able to run at 25 mhz when no add on boards were present. this is not a scientific survey but it is the best we have to work with. thanks to all who contributed to this poll. issues: speed) 25 mhz to 27.5 mhz appears to be the norm for machines without add on cards. all reported machines were able to use 25 mhz as long as no add on cards were present. several apple nubus cards were in use. no machine with the nubus adapter was able to go faster than 25 mhz. one wasn't even able to achieve 25 mhz with the nubus adapter in place at speeds of 32 and 33 mhz, the startup sound is distorted and hi density floppy disk problems have been reported. note: unless specifically listed below, machines were not tested with a higher speed clock to failure. hence, the 25 mhz operational machines may well work at higher speeds. damage) one user reported pulling out the plating of one pad. this was repaired and the machine is operational. one other reported pulling the pin out of the original clock oscillator during desoldering. there is one second hand report of a user putting a gash in the motherboard with a slipped soldering iron. no reports of static discharge damage. no reports of high speed operation causing damage. then again, i also don't have any reports from users of defective parachutes. add on boards) compatibility appears to be a problem with apple nubus adapters. several other add on boards have been used with success. see case histories heat sinks) virtually all modified machines had a heat sink installed. these were often the to-220 style power transistor type. some used epoxy. some used a dab of heat sink compound with a dab of cyanoacrylate glue. there was also use of a clamp with a bolt through the hole in the motherboard. case histories: all speeds are the effective cpu speed (1/2 of clock oscillator). all reported cpu versions were 20 mhz. 1) 27.5 mhz operational. ran for 10 minutes at 31 mhz before crashing. no fpu or other add on card heatsinked cpu only on 24 hours/day no damage during installation 2) 27.5 mhz operational without apple nubus adapter. 25 mhz top speed with apple nubus card installed heatsinked cpu only on 24 hours/day no floppy problems no damage during installation 3) 27.5 mhz operational. unable to boot at 31 mhz heatsinked cpu only no floppy problems no damage during installation 4) 25 mhz operational works with the following two configurations a) realtech fpu adaptor card realtech cache card supermac 8*24 pdqsi b) supermac fpu adaptor card supermac video spigot supermac 8*24 pdqsi 5) 33 mhz operational fuzzy startup sound problems with hi density disks 6) 33 mhz operational fuzzy startup sound heat sink on cpu and chip to right of cpu 7) 25 mhz operational. occasional crash at 33 mhz 8) 25 mhz operational. using fpu rated at 16 mhz without difficulty 9) 25 mhz operational. pds adapter with a spectrum 24pdqsi graphics card and a videospigot, a 20mhz fpu heat sink on cpu 10) 25 mhz operational. 33 mhz failed after several hours. 11) 25 mhz operational 5/80+quicksilver/fpu(only upgrade) 12) 25 mhz operational. tried 33 mhz - system won't start. heat sink on cpu configured with realtech fpu/adapter card supermac 8*24 pdqsi realtech cache. cpu on continuously - no problems. floppy works fine at 1.4mb @ 25 mhz 13) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 14) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 15) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 16) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 17) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu on 17-19 hours per day 18) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu + cooling fan no floppy problems at 25 mhz 19) 20 mhz operational. bombed soon after startup at 25 mhz with nubus adapter 20 mhz rated cpu ram 70 ns in slots, 80 on motherboard 20) 25 mhz operational heat sink added to cpu later. no damage while unheatsinked. apple nubus adapter with fpu installed. 21) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 22) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 23) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu 24) 25 mhz operational heat sink on cpu guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52099">
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 anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call? ae is in dallas...try 214/241-6060 or 214/241-0055. tech support may be on their own line, but one of these should get you started. good luck! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52103">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52103" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 my recently modified quadra 700 with a socket for clock oscillators has now completed nearly 40 hours of error free operation at 32 mhz (with a 64 mhz clock oscillator). i have also tried a 55 mhz cmos clock and that works as well. on the more stupid side, i've discovered you can use a 40 mhz clock and make your q700 as slow as a centris 610. however, a 25 mhz clock which would have yielded a 12.5 mhz quadra 700 (who'd want one?) didn't work at all. impatiently awaiting a 66 mhz clock, guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52104">
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 i need help finding xcmds to control a cd-rom drive from aldus supercard 1.6. the apple hypercard cd-rom toolkit does not work. aldus has no clue. apple has no clue. berkeley mug and boston mug won't return any phone calls. my local user group has no idea. help! commercial or shareware is fine... please reply by email: clee@theporch.raider.net thanks! chris lee macintosh consulting, america online: chris136 po box 22621 graphics,interface design, compu$erve: 73247,2402 nashville,tn 37202 digital audio clee@theporch.raider.net 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52108">
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 a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that 40% of all the computers in the u.s. are left on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i don't recall cnn's source. leslie jones ljones@utkvx.utk.edu, who turns off his monitor when he's not using it. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52110">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52110" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 the problem mentioned last is a known quadra scsi problem, it was heavily discussed last year and an apple employee pointed out that there was a one byte error in the scsi driver routine for the quadra's (at least the and 900). system 7.1 should not have that problem, for most people the solution was to get an updated driver from the drive manufactor. in my case mass microsystems wrote a new driver which fixed the problem on my 700, all that occured early last year. anyone know if there is an updated driver for sony dat drives? i can't get mine to work with our 950 (see "sony dat / retrospect problems" posted in this group) but i'm also having problems with other new macs... cheers, matt. ______ matthew riddle matthew@ariel.unimelb.edu.au | ---- | science multimedia teaching unit tel 61 3 344 6400 || || faculty of science fax 61 3 344 5803 | ---- | university of melbourne | -- | australia my opinions are my own! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52111">
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 i read in a recent tidbits(171-2?) about the possibility of putting a 68030 in a pb100. i am interested in doing so, but would like to know more about it. does it involve just replacing the 68000 that is on the daughterboard, or does it involve getting a new daughter- board. also, would the 68030 be able to run qt with the pb100's screen(not pretty i know, but possible?) and of course, what would the damage be ($). any info would be appreciated. thanks in advance. jay fogel 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52112">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52112" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have a plp ii laser printer make by gcc technologies. i have problem with a dirty first page. the top portion of the first is always smeared with black toner across the page. if i print more than one page at the same time, the problem does not occur on other pages. i cleaned the printer but still does not help. can anyone offer any solutions? or know the phone # to gcc technologies? the phone number for gcc is 617-275-5800, i believe. i don't have the number for tech support handy... -=alan 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52113">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52113" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have replaced the osz to 66 mhz yesterday and no truble at all. my quadra now works at 33 mhz stable for more than 14 hours. i have also tried a 70 mhz osz, but after 1/2 hour my quadra 700 died. i am not sure what was the reason for that, but it is to risky to run it to fast. most of your quadras 700 should work at 33 mhz without any problems. but a safety tip do a backup from your harddisk befor you start to upgrade. during my 35 mhz test i damaged my harddisk and had a hardtime to get it working again. so once again do a backup befor you start!!!!!!!!! now the speedometer results after replacing the osz. speedometer report for menes rainer. prepared april 22, 1993. machine record version #: 5 user comment: quadra 700 33mhz and ram disk 20 mbyte ram + 2 mbyte vram system information: computer: mac quadra 700 cpu: mc68040 fpu: integral fpu mmu: integral mmu color quickdraw: 2.30 (32 bit qd) system version: 7.1.6 finder version: d1-7.1 appletalk version: 57 laserwriter version: d1-7.1.2 laser prep version: not found imagewriter version: d1-7.0.1 rom version: $067c rom size: 1024 bit depth: 1 horizontal dpi: 72 vertical dpi: 72 primary screen size: 832 x 624 physical ram: 20480k logical ram: 20454k p.r. results (uses mac classic as 1.0): cpu: 21.625 graphics: 30.052 disk: 28.351 name of hard disk tested: ram disk math: 135.128 performance rating (pr): 36.848 benchmark results (uses mac classic as 1.0): kwhetstones: 1500.000 205.479 dhrystones: 26315.789 27.008 towers: 24.960 quicksort: 22.391 bubble sort: 23.823 queens: 24.105 puzzle: 28.804 permutations: 26.523 fast fourier: 167.728 f.p. matrix multiply: 154.452 integer matrix multiply: 30.250 sieve: 25.602 benchmark average: 63.427 fpu tests (uses mac ii as 1.0): @@ffpu fast fourier: 14.636 fpu kwhetstones: 5454.545 7.636 fpu f.p. matrix mult.: 14.333 fpu test average: 12.202 color tests (uses mac ii as 1.0): black & white: 6.395 4 colors: 6.773 16 colors: 6.957 256 colors: 7.016 color test average: 6.785 very interesting are the graphics results (graphics 30.052) couldn't belief this, but it is true. two points which my cause problems are the 4 mbyte ram solder on the board. the are only 80ns rams and run at the upperlimit with 33 mhz. the next part which may cause trouble are the video rams. i have the orignal 100ns vrams from apple in my quadra, here you are also at the upperlimit where most of the chips running but it isn't garantied to run. most of the other parts on the quadra board running on there o wn clockspeed so they wont make truble. the most importaned question is do i neat a new heat sink. i would say no. after running my quadra for more than 14 hours the heat sink is really cool. a 33 mhz 486 with heat sink is mutch warmer than the 68040 in the quadra, so i didn't see any problems. the room temperatur was 22 celsius (72 f). if you living in a area were it is hot 100 f (45 c) and your room temperatur is not mutch below i would suggest a new heat sink with a ventilator to stay on the safe side. hope you will have the same success than i had, email: menes@statistik.tu-muenchen.de 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52115">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52115" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we are having problems with our laserwriter print drivers going bad on various people's machines on our appletalk network. on our network, people have 7.0, 7.01, and 7.1 versions of the laserwriter print driver. we have been solving the problem by reinstalling the print driver, but it is time-consuming and a real pain. the printmonitor software also seems to go bad frequently. we have also just been replacing it (over and over, it seems) to keep things running. does anyone out there have any ideas about what may be causing the printing software to go bad? are there known init conflicts or network conflicts? i would appreciate communication about any similar experiences you may have had or ideas you have. you could send me an email directly to: karens@edc.org.... thanks....karen 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52116">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52116" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we were told that the resolution on the 5fge could only go to 1024x768. and that the 5 fg could go to 1152x870. has anybody tried running these higher resolutions?? somewhere i thought i read that the 1152x870 on a 17" monitor may make the type too small to read. any help would be appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52118">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52118" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 there are no minidocks with math coprocessors available right now and i am not aware of any in development. demand appears low for such a device right now, but i'm sure some enterprising vendor would create one if there were sufficient **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52122">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52122" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 there seems to be some confusion about educational "discounts". true apple has different dealer price for educational and retail vendors, but those price differences are not that great about 5%. maybe, but the end user price is more like 10 - 20 % less. it is here in canada anyway. for what it's worth, my experience has been that the educational discount (which my s.o. has taken advantage of, as a teacher) is roughly equivalent to the corporate discounts that i'm able to get as an employee of a fairly large multi-state corporation, which is usually at least as good as what one can get at one of the "discount" computer chains (e.g. compusa). for purposes of budget estimation around here, we usually just knock around 20% off srp. * the_doge of south st. louis * * dobbs-approved media conspirator(tm) * * "one step beyond" -- sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 fm st. louis community radio * * "you'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- j.r. "bob" dobbs" * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52123">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52123" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i read in macweek that some developers are getting nubus cards from apple with pre-release powerpc chips on them. does this mean that when the chip is released, those of us with old apples will be able to take advantage of the powerpc risc technology just by inserting a card? i don't know anything about hardware, so can someone tell me how much of a cludge this would be? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52124">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52124" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 is it possible to rip an external syquest removable drive out of its external casing and install it into the 5 1/4" empty bay slot on a centris 650? i know a special bracket would need to be purchased, but is there any power hookup/scsi constraints that would prevent it? if anyone has done it, could they mail me some instructions. it doesn't seem to be that overwhelming an undertaking. | nicholas lamendola | "...he who controls the fork, | | | controls the meal of his choice..." | | npl@lingo.psych.rochester.edu | | | npl@merlin.cvs.rochester.edu | -- lard (1991) -- | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52125">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52125" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 what is the real story here? can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video? do i need to make my own cable if it doesn't not come with one? has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such? the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts... --mike 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52126">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52126" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul i vote for turning them off at night. the stress of off/on is a little harmful, so don't turn it off, then back on an hour later, etc, but turning them off for 4-5 hours or overnight is a good idea. the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight, along with heat. we have a lot of 10-year old machines in the basement that still work, but who cares? (they are off 24 hours a day). 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52128">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52128" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 : yes, duo prices have dropped. i don't have the msrp reductions, : (though you can find it in a recent tidbits, archived at sumex) : but here's the berkeley educational price list (old -> new) : duo 210 4/80 $1919 -> 1569 : duo 230 4/80 $2225 -> 1961 : duo 230 4/120 $2532 -> 2268 : duo 230 4/120/modem $2746 -> 2473 and the michigan state university pricing of the 210: systems-powerbook duo portable m4161ll/a mac powerbook duo 210 - 4m ram/80m hd 1528.98 *promotion* expires: 06/13/93 b1304ll/a mac pb duo 210 4/80 bundle-w/flpy adpt & 1.4m drive 1636.08 | internet: michael.kwun@umich.edu | i speak only for myself. | | bitnet: userw0za@umichum | support a local cooperative. | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52130">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52130" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 since image writer lq was discontinued, there is no apple talk printer with 11"*15" continous paper printer. i would like to know is there are any possibility to connect an ibm compatible printer to an apple talk net directly (or with a net serial hardware), and if i need any other software to do it. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52131">
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 can the internal hard drive of the macportable upgraded to larger capacity? what is the specs? a 3-1/2" drive? lps model? is there any third party modem greater than 2400 bps? with fax option? p.s. i notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog. eric choi - internet: eric.choi@p5.f175.n2240.z1.fidonet.org 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52132">
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 i need to add to your message. i have a major problem on my hands. i have a rodime 60+ (series ro3000t) external hard drive. rodime is out of business, and not writing any more drivers. in particular, drivers compatable with system 7.1. after talking to rodime, they recommended the following hard drive manufacturers and their driver software that were compatable: scsi hard drive manufacturer driver software fwb hard disk tool kit fwb hard disk tool kit - personal la cie silverlining 5.2 or higher casa blanca driver software drive7 if anybody has experience with these driver software packages, please reply. if there is shareware out there, i would like to get my hands on it. i would much rather send a good developer the $25 or so, because most of the software i mentioned, if purchased, would cost $125, $49, $149, and $49 respectively. thanks in advance. bob dohr, the association bringing a kind word and a helpful spirit wherever we can, we are... -+- the association - a multi-line macintosh bbs in grand blanc, michigan! echoes from fido, internet, familynet, icdmnet, k-12 - plus 2gb files at 313-695-6955 hst/v.32bis. ___________________________________________________________________ testify 2.0 bob dohr - internet: bob.dohr@f174.n2240.z1.fidonet.org 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52133">
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 i have also moved on to a 66.6 mhz clock. thus far not problems. i'm not totallysurprised as i've had q700 run at 35.4 mhz (cpu clock speed) using a vso. my 25 mhz rated daystar quadracache got very hot at 32 mhz and would fail previously. i glued on a piece of aluminum stock to the hi speed ram chips and it runs cool without problems at 33.3 mhz. the combination is faster than a q950. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52134">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52134" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i purchased 2x8 mb 72-pin (60 ns) simms for my quadra 800 from chip merchant (i've been very satisfied with them in the past). either one alone works, but both together fail. i called apple for advice and was told that there was a problem with "composite" simms. only non-composite simms should be used with the q-800. chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite 72-pin simms. so, q-800 simms need to be both 60 ns and non-composite. marty sachs usda/ars & agronomy/uiuc msachs@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu [internet] s108 turner hall msachs@uiucvmd [bitnet] 1102 s. goodwin ave. (217) 244-0864 [phone] urbana, il 61801 (217) 333-6064 [fax] 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52135">
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 i have heard that the version 7.2 printer driver is out for the apple laserwriter ls. has ayone heard of how or where to get this driver. please email thanks! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52137">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52137" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is it going to be possible to upgrade a c610 to tempest? that's the current rumor that was started by macweek last month. if so, how...motherboard switch? how else would you accomplish this kind of an upgrade? probably gonna be expensive right? of course. this is apple we are talking about here. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52140">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52140" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 and the michigan state university pricing of the 210: systems-powerbook duo portable m4161ll/a mac powerbook duo 210 - 4m ram/80m hd 1528.98 *promotion* expires: 06/13/93 by then it might be already 200$ cheaper :-)) b1304ll/a mac pb duo 210 4/80 bundle-w/flpy adpt & 1.4m drive 1636.08 same here at the u of mn, 1599$ for that bundle. | internet: michael.kwun@umich.edu | i speak only for myself. | | bitnet: userw0za@umichum | support a local cooperative. | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52141">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52141" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i wonder how hard it would be (i.e. what it would add to the cost) to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time. i believe that apple, sun and a number of other desktop machine manufacturers have agreed with the government to incorporate power-saving techniques; this is also something that governments in other countries are likely to require in the future, so expect to see it. this may include the ability for the system to fully power down the monitor, via a controllable power outlet, and power it back on automatically. (is this a "sell" on screen saver software companies?) goals for "idle" power consumption have been set at something like 30 watts for the system, not including the monitor (? don't quote me on this). note that in many businesses, the savings will be substantial, especially if you factor in reduced load on air conditioning systems. sun did a study that indicated that simply powering off monitors for the night would save the company (sun itself) on the order of $1m per year. putting other (and automatic) power-saving features in would probably have greater than double that value. given that we are seeing more and more reason to leave our work and home computers on (getting faxes, automatically getting email, ...), building power consumption control into all machines has a potential to cut ~2% off the national power consumption, based on data i heard. btw: when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work, it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front. there was some indication that monitors with power switches on the rear are not designed to tolerate lots of power cycling. this may only apply to the monitors we use, but might be worth checking if you happen to have a monitor with the switch in back. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52142">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52142" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we'll be releasing a whole new suite of quickdraw gx-related docs. if you're going to be at the wwdc next month you'll get a preliminary of most of this documentation on the cd. we're talking multiple of pages, i'm afraid; gx (comprising graphics, layout and printing) lots of new api calls and other functionality, all of which need documenting... dave opstad gx line layout weenie does gx take the place of 32 bit qd or add to it? right now 32 bit is kinda aesthetically a pain in a few places because of hacks upon hacks to maintain compatibility with original qd---i think of things like where you have to cast cgrafports to grafports and such. it would be a lot cleaner to ditch this entire mess and start over---do we get that? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52144">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52144" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 alas, this is a funny system, it sounds like a good deal, but this is a centris 650, 4mb (on the motherboard) 4mb simm, 80mb hd, no ethernet and no coprocessor (well, actually it's a 68lc040 instead of a 68rc040, 'just had to say that to keep people from saying "there is no such thing as an '040 without a coprocessor, since the fpu is built into the chip") actually, there such a thing as an '040 without a coprocessor. it's called the 68lc040. this is a redesign of the full 040 (which people are calling the 68rc040, although i have been told by a number of people that motorola doesn't call the full '040 that) without the integrated fpu hardware. it just isn't there. that's what the pseudo-disclaimer is supposed to say, sorry for the confusion. o---------------------------+======================================o | "i hate quotations. | this message brought you by | | tell me what you know." | nate sammons, and the number 42. | | --ralph waldo emerson | ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu | o---------------------------+======================================o 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52146">
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 hello out in networld, we have a lab of old macs(ses and pluses). we don't have enough money to buy all new machines, so we are considering buying a few superdrives for our old macs to allow folks with high density disks to use our equipment. i was wondering what experiences (good or bad) people have had with this sort of upgrade. murray@andromeda.rutgers.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52147">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52147" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that 40% of all the computers in the u.s. are left on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i don't recall cnn's source. yeah, but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations (suns, dec, ibm rs600... etc etc) which turns monitor off if left untouched for 5 min. - chung yang leslie jones ljones@utkvx.utk.edu, who turns off his monitor when he's not using it. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52148">
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 anyone have a price quote/vendor for the vx to centris 650 upgrade? i've been quoted a price of $2401 till august 15th after which it will cost $2732. this of course doesn't include the trade-in rebate of $1300 for the vx board. thus for $1101 one gets a centris 650, 8 meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet. anyone else have any info? this price is from the university of illinois micro-order center, are there any other vendors who offer similar prices? falcon microsystems of landover md, the sole apple-authorized reseller to the federal government, has similar "open market" prices. the upgrade is too new to be on general services adminsitration schedule joe gurman j.b. gurman / solar physics branch / nasa goddard space flight center / greenbelt md 20771 usa / gurman@uvsp.gsfc.nasa.gov | federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the hatch act.| | therefore, any opinions expressed herein are somebody else's. | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52149">
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 i have a nice vxc moniterm 19 in b/w monitor, formerly used on an atari st. i think such monitors are / have been used on macs. can someone tell me what mac can use it, what card i should get to use it, etc.. this monitor also has a label on the front saying viking 2/90, and has a db9 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52150">
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 a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that 40% of all the computers in the u.s. are left on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i don't recall cnn's source. ljones@utkvx.utk.edu (leslie jones) yeah, but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors. factoid : fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information (diluted) murphy@npri6.npri.com (systems programmer at large) when every one is dead 602 cameron st. the great game is finished alexandria, va 22314 not before. (703) 683-9090 --- hurree babu, "kim" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52153">
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 is there a way to connect a powerbook 145, mac iisi, and personal laserwriter ls so that i can (not necessarily silmultaneoulsy) print from either the iisi, or pb, and file share between the iisi and pb? i know i can get the ($expensive$) lw nt upgrade for my ls, but i can't afford that... thanks, mark 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52154">
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 does anyone know where i can get the developer notes for the new mac models (like iivx, lc iii, centris)? thank's for any information. please reply by email. iwan k gunawan / \ __ / \ / / \(oo)/ \ \ internet: ////// ' \/ ` \\\\\\ gunawan@envmsa.eas.asu.edu //// / // : : \\ \ \\\\ gunawan@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu // / / /` '\ \ \ \\ gunawan@enuxva.eas.asu.edu // //..\\ \\ ====uu====uu==== arizona state university | '//||\\` | ______________________________________________|______________|_____________ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52157">
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 i saw this question posted a week or so ago, but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net. what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook? the earlier questioner wonderd if this would> any help gratefully recieved. i will summarise to the net if necessary. the general consensus seems to be that an extended keyboard (or the new ergonomic keyboard) with mouse is ok. the pb160 is rated for 200ma which is apparently identical to the lc and the lc works fine with said attachments. thanks very much to those who replied...i am now on my way to order a battleship and a mouse.... :) ...now i wonder about my electric toothbrush... p.s. i am thinking of a pb160 but i assume that this would apply to all pb's. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52159">
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 yes, i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on. but what about monitors? they generate a lots of heat. should i or shouldn't i keep them on 24 hours a day? any advice? thanks. take care...paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement. true, there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage, but the internal power supply is well-protected. (i've turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem). the monitor is the same. to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity -- twice as much as a television, possibly more. the computer itself uses far less electricity than a tv. monitor--depends on the size :). but one thing not to do is use a self-shutdown or power-shutdown iron/appliance on the same electric line. after a new monitor and power supply and modem, my wife *still* doesn't think her iron is at fault :(. (she should know better, being a bio-med engineer :) "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52163">
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 its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position. if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position, it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position. i asked this question a while ago while contemplating placing my 650 on it's side. i received a response from someone at seagate (sorry i trashed the message) stating that most newer drives (seagates at the least) can very well compensate for gravity. this means that a horizontally formatted drive can be later placed vertically with no data integrity problems. so is there any problems putting a drive formatted vertically on its side horizontally? i got a drive a few years ago with the rubber feet on the side, etc. and have used it like that since (obviously designed for that orientation). however, it doesn't fit under any of the clever places i can think of to place it, so i would really like to lay it flat and put it under a low shelf. this is probably not a "newer" drive, and it is only 70 meg, but when i bought it, it was a large drive for an average user (comparable to buying a 200 meg drive today). so is my old, 70 meg drive as fragile (or not) as a new 200 meg drive? just curious..... jim melton, novice guru email: flash@austin.lockheed.com | "so far as we know, our voice mail: (512) 386-4486 | computer has never had fax: (512) 386-4223 | an undetected error" 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52166">
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 hi everyone, i'm experiencing a very annoying problem with background printing on the hp deskwriter (sys 7.1, deskwriter driver 3.1, powerbook 170). when i print from, say, ms word, i see the message "spooling to disk," but sometimes nothing prints. checking my memory map thanks to now menus, i see that hp backgrounder has not loaded. restarting fixes this. it seems to me that hp backgrounder is quitting unexpectedly, and that its status as "multifinder not aware" allows it to do this without my being informed by a message such as "hp backgrounder quit unexpectedly." have you ever seen this problem before. there may or may not be a related problem. i have experienced problems in putting my computer to sleep. choosing "sleep" from the finder menu sometimes does nothing. today on a whim i checked the memory map, and i discovered that hp backgrounder was not loaded. restarted reloaded hp backgrounder, and i was able to put my machine to sleep as usual. just a mere coincidence or is the hp backgrounder crash preventing my machine from going to sleep? has anyone seen this problem? i'm seriously considering the purchase of a stylewriterii because of the poor quality of the hp software. please send your answers directly to me and post to the net. yours truly, marc bizer 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52168">
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 has anybody heard about a thing called a macwatch? i saw it on tv a couple of years ago, it is a watch with a reviever and a transmitter for your mac. the practical upshot is that your mac can page your watch and display a small message. my flatmate is off to the states for a week or two soon and i am interested in getting one. any info would be thanx in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52169">
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 i have a se/30 and a generation systems 8bit pds card for a 17" it worked great until i upgraded from 5 to 20 mb ram. now with sys7.1 and mode32 or 32enabler it does not boot.. a tech support person said the card does not support these 32bit i guess he is right. early versions of the rasterops cards did not either, but they fixed it, and people with problems can get a free rom upgrade from rasterops. but: when pressing the shift key while booting (when the ext. monitor goes black after having been grey) the system sometimes boots properly!! and then works ok with the 20mb and full graphics. what's happening??? very easy. if you boot without the mode32 control panel, then it will disable (or rather not reinstall) the 32-bit clean patches. so when you run ok you must be in 24-bit adressing mode. check about this macintosh and see if you havce a 12+mb system. thanks a lot for any advice!!! please answer by mail. sent seperately. ossip kaehr ossip@cs.tu-berlin.de voice: +49.30.6226317 __ -------------------------------------------------------------- __ /_/\ ossip kaehr hermannstrasse 32 d-1000 berlin 44 germany /\_\ \_\/ tel. +49.30.6223910 or 6218814 email ossip@cs.tu-berlin.de \/_/ povl h. pedersen - macintosh specialist. knows some dos and unix too. pope@imv.aau.dk - povlphp@uts.uni-c.dk --- finger me at pope@imv.aau.dk for pgp public key --- 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52170">
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 besides the faster processor, the 950 has scsi 2, and as far as i know, faster i/o due to separate processors handling those functions. mostly. the q950 does have a scsi2 controller chip as it's scsi chip, but it does not have the chips to use the wide or fast scsi-2 modes and therefore doesn't offer much more in the way of scsi performance over the q900. it does, howrever, have a faster i/o controller than the q900; this is where the real speed boost comes from. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52171">
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 i just thought i would pass along my experience with aps. i recently ordered an external quantum 240. the salesperson was friendly and knowledgeable, the order came when promised, and the invoice was at the price quoted. installing the drive was simple; i didn't even have to read the manual. the scsi address is set by a pushbutton arrangement. i daisy-chained the drive from my syquest (also from aps) and booted up with no problems. i'm still going through all the shareware that comes on the drive. it's a pretty good assortment. the drive/fan is a bit noisier than i would like, but i think it'll be ok. the speed seems very good, although i haven't run any objective tests. it also seems to spin up pretty quickly; i can hit the power switch for it, and almost immediately power the mac without any problems booting from the drive. some observations: the case is plastic (good quality, though) while my older syquest case is metal. there is one led, which is normally green, and flickers red as the drive is accessed. just a data point, richard c. long | long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com "ludicrous speed!! go!!!!" | ...!decwrl!mcntsh.enet.dec.com!long -- dark helmet | long%mcntsh.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52172">
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 btw: when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work, it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front. there was some indication that [deleted] this is a pet peeve of mine. i wish companies would put power switches on the front of the equipment! if my apple monitor had the switch on the front, i would happily power it off at night. almost every piece of computer equipment i own/use has the switch on the back (including external hard drives and modems--why?). i hope front-mounted switches become the norm, and soon. richard c. long | long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com "ludicrous speed!! go!!!!" | ...!decwrl!mcntsh.enet.dec.com!long -- dark helmet | long%mcntsh.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52173">
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 i am currently managing, among many other labs, a lab with three lc iis, a mac plus with 45 mb external hd, and a laserwriter ii ntx. my problem? the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail's pace. this happens intermittently to macs in our department, ranging from iisi's to a quadra 950. i can end the slowdown immediately by unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac. it seems that something on the network puts out these packet storms every few days. these storms have the effect of making our macs slow down to a crawl. thank you very much. these computers behave exactly like what you're describing. now, my question. i am running on the lowest of all budgets, public education. how can i analyze this? all i need is some sort of packet counter. do any exist, and where are they? thanks again, -- andrew geweke douce@tfsquad.mn.org (andrew geweke) the firing squad bbs, public access usenet mail and news. +1 612 291 2632 saint paul, minnesota 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52174">
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 a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that 40% of all the computers in the u.s. are left on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i don't recall cnn's source. ljones@utkvx.utk.edu (leslie jones) yeah, but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors. factoid : fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information (diluted) murphy@npri6.npri.com (systems programmer at large) when every one is dead 602 cameron st. the great game is finished alexandria, va 22314 not before. (703) 683-9090 --- hurree babu, "kim" bob brown 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52176">
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 a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that 40% of all the computers in the u.s. are left on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i don't recall cnn's source. yeah, but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations (suns, dec, ibm rs600... etc etc) which turns monitor off if left untouched for 5 min. none of the suns, decs, or rs6000s i've used have turned off the monitor automatically. matthew t. russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu some news readers expect "disclaimer:" here. just say no to police searches and seizures. make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52178">
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 there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers. what is it ? mark@law.aukuni.ac.nz m. perry, faculty of law, auckland university, new zealand 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52181">
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 it happened to my classic ii once. at startup, after the usual powerup tone, there were chimes (kinda like do(1st)-mi(1st)-sol(1st)-do(2nd) or 1st c - 1st e - 1st g - 2nd c on the music scale), and it hanged before giving the happy mac. i had to re-powerup. this was asked before but i can't remember the answer. i've tried to find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but to no avail. can anyone tell me what those unusual chimes mean? a spurious memory check error? willie* 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52182">
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 i was reading a review of the centris 610 in this months macworld and the reviewer said that for $4 you could make an adjustment on the clock speed of the chip and change it from 20mhz to 25mhz. i haven't heard of this before, and i don't think that this is the 040 chip replacement (with fpu) that i have seen so much talk about. anyone have any ideas? cwera@du.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52185">
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 i think the subject title says it all. anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass!! looks like someone left their terminal unattended. | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52186">
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 i have a sony 1304s whch i would like to hook up so that i get its power though my quadra 800's power supply. ie, if i had an apple monitor, i could plug the monitor directly into the computer so that when i hit the power button the keyboard, both the monitor and computer go on, and when i shut down, both go off. is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this "extension cable" into my quadra? any thoughts and comments would be appreciated, thanks in advance, derek fong * email: thewho@plume.mit.edu dept. of physical oceanography * thewho@darla.whoi.edu bldg 54-1511a * clark laboratory 317 massachusetts institute of technology * woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge, ma 02139 * woods hole, ma 02543 (617) 253-2922 * (508) 457-2000 x2814 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52191">
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 organization: lehigh university to: multiple recipients of list c18-l <c18-l@psuvm.bitnet> research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states' 30 to 35 million personal computers are on, they are not [more quote deleted] it every so often if you can. let's get the word out to everyone. we need to be responsible about the way we consume. jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university of michigan ok, i have a question... why? why do people copy the article, and the only new thing they add to the post is there name? i'm not picking on this person, i've seen a few of these. is it just a mistake? am i missing something? is it some unknown net-equette i missed somewhere? i skip over all the quoted material, since i've already read it, and look for the non-quoted material, and all i get is the name addition. is this supposed to me "i agree", or "i second this" or what? sorry... just wondering if i missed something somewhere along the line... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52192">
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 hi- do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos? or in the powerbook in general? what are the factors that make the duo 210 so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed (25mhz 68030)? how many wait states are in the memory system, etc? what kind of a data bus does it use? 32-bit or 16-bit? it's still slow when plugged into a duodock. anyone know in general what kind of shortcuts notebook manufacturers take when making notebooks? i heard of a 486dx2/66 notebook getting a "whopping" 10 mips rating. a similar desktop machine should be getting about 3 times that, i guess. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52197">
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 is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this "extension cable" into my there are two approaches: 1. if your power cord is the kind that detaches from the back of the monitor (most common) you can get a *replacement* power cord that will go from the monitor to the back of the computer. 2. you can get an adpater that connects to the plug end of the existing power cord and provides the proper end that plugs into the back of the both cost about the same (aprox. $5) and are available from many computer stores (clone dealers are usually better at having these things and at good prices). power cords are standard, so you don't have to go looking for some special thing at a mac store. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52200">
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 : >in the official paper i got from apple about the new docking station, apple : >themselves called it the "duodock plus". : what paper is that? it's been on the price list here at dartmouth : since they released it and it has never been called the "duodock plus." it was a paper from apple sweden that announced some new products (the new docking station was only one of them), and the paper arrived before it showed up on the price list. i don't know if it's still called the "duodock plus" in the price list, it could be a mistake by someone at apple sweden. /mats mats bredell mats.bredell@udac.uu.se uppsala university computing center (udac) ph: +46 18 187817 department of medical systems fax: +46 18 187825 sweden think straight - be gay! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52201">
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 new to this area so.... i have read about some upgrades for the lc ii, doing some modification to make the thing run faster! is the performa 400 about the same as an lc and if so would the homemade speed upgrade work?? 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52203">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52203" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 since the demise of the outbound company, what options would exist for me if i were to buy one of their laptops? (1) since the outbounds (2030, 2030e, etc) use mac plus roms, won't that severly limit using future applications? (2) what is a reasonable price for one of their laptops? the prices i've seen seem extremely high considering the limited choices now. (3) how reliable have they proven? any answers would be helpful. gene@jackatak.raider.net (gene wright) ------------jackatak.raider.net (615) 377-5980 ------------ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52209">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52209" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc. the card is manufactured by asante. on it i can read: "asante tech, inc. copyright 1991. maccon + lc rev.b". the card has an fpu socket on it. it provides thin ethernet connector and there's another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors. my questions are: - will this card work on any other model than lc-serie ?, given that it's a pds card, will it work with the iisi pds slot ?. i think there may be a probleme because the lc has 16 bit wide slots. - what's that other conncetor on the card ?. _ is anyone interested in it ?. i can ship it to any cee country. sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | ibaa oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) |lab de genie informatique (lgi). kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten |imag, inpg. baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i) |46, av. felix viallet, grenoble. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52212">
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 even better than that... how does a 68000-based amiga 2000 perform in daily tasks compared to my 68030-based iici. answer, except in a very few cases, i get my butt kicked by the amiga. a similar reason is why people at work, used to seeing sco unix running on a 486, are suprised when they see my sun-3 at home running faster w/a 16mhz 68020/68881. the sun was designed from the ground up for unix, the pc wasn't. this is why you need a gargantuan processor to run windows. the basic design of the box is all wrong. (would've been better if ms had put most of windows on a plug-in rom card from day one. (priced at $24.95 or so...) people woulda loved it. apple had the right idea, just stumbled a bit in the execution. peter l. wargo / wargopl@sun.soe.clarkson.edu / e-mail saves trees. documentation / / it also makes the enable software / 518-877-8600, x528 / world smaller.... 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52213">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52213" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 we are having a problem with a quadra 950 that has stumped a couple of techs sent to us by the vendor, as well as us :-) this quadra is 'stuffed' with 64mb ram, 2mb vram and some large disk (400mb i think). what happens is that after a certain variable interval of time the video circuitry 'loses' vertical sync. it is quite apparent that the mac cpu is still ok, and the problem really seems to lie with the video circuitry, since you can still save your documents, quit your aplpications, even pull down menus etc. (only the display is scrolling lik crazy, so it's pretty hard to hit menu items ;-) [... other info deleted ...] has anyone any ideas? please? please email as well as posting cause i seem to be spending a lot of time rebooting my mac lately and have a lot less time available to read news! :-) are you sure it's not a problem caused by software? i've seen this sort of effect when a runaway program (which could be caused by an init conflict, for instance) accidentally wacks on a register in the video hardware. have you tried booting with no extensions and then letting the q950 just sit there in the finder? you might also want to try changing to 24-bit addressing (yes, i know you can't access your full 64 mb of ram - it's just an experiment) as the video hardware registers can't be accessed another thing to try as a 'recovery' measure is to use something like quickkeys to change the pixel depth of the display. this reprograms (some of) the video hardware registers and may allow sync to be restored. - dale adams 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52215">
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 i ordered an external floppy drive from them 2 years ago. when i placed the order, they said it was in stock and would ship the next day. a week passed and no drive. i called them up and they said they were out of stock and my drive should ship in 2 weeks or so. since i needed the drive right away (both my internal hard drive and floppy were dead) i cancelled my order and haven't dealt with them since. chris kidwell ck31@andrew.cmu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52217">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52217" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for recommendations for a laser printer. it will be used mostly for text by a single user. it doesn't need to be a postscript printer. any advice would be appreciated. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52219">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52219" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 performa 200 == classic ii performa 400 == lc ii performa 405 = lcii 4/80 with monitor, modem and software. performa 430 = lcii 4/120 w/ monitor, modem and software. performa 4xx == lc iii performa 450 = lciii with monitor, modem and software. do we detect a trend here people... the performas are made to be low-cost business solutions. the 4xx have bundled software, modems, etc. the performas are made to be low-cost, widely distributed (sold at sears) home machines, not business machines. they were developed to compete with the retail outlet home computer market. because they have no "retail price" you might be able to get a steeper discount on them. shop around. sears is probably going to have the best price around, most of the time, based on the number they can purchase and stuff like that. as far as the monitors go, buy 3rd party. much cheaper. not really. the newer peformas (405, 430, 450) come with what is really a third party monitor that apple has put their name on and called it the performa plus display. essentially it is a vga monitor, quite cheap. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52222">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52222" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 wanted: apple adb mouse and keyboard contact paul gribble at above email address asap. paul g. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52224">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52224" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers. what is it ? it is a factory testing slot. the test rig connects to the connector and verifies proper board operation. s. kevin hester | disclaimer: nothing i say has anything to do | kevinh@apple.com | with apple computer. the red zone is for | portable beer brewer | loading and unloading of passenger vehicles only.| 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52230">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52230" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone had any success or experience with the hp deskwriter v3.1 drivers? the new driver has a nice "save as default" option which claims to record your paper size, font substitution settings etc. for future has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort "such-and-such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory"? or am i the only one suffering from this delusion? --marc bizer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52232">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52232" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc. the card is manufactured by asante. on it i can read: "asante tech, inc. copyright 1991. maccon + lc rev.b". the card has an fpu socket on it. it provides thin ethernet connector and there's another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors. my questions are: - will this card work on any other model than lc-serie ?, given that it's a pds card, will it work with the iisi pds slot ?. i think there may be a probleme because the lc has 16 bit wide slots. it probably won't work with any other lc. the ones i have for the lc ii are rev. d. no, it won't work in the iisi's pds slot since it's a 68030 pds, while the lc has the 68020 pds. the iisi and se/30 share the same kind of card. - what's that other conncetor on the card ?. that's the 10baset ethernet connector. chad e. jones | these are the days you might fill with network manager | laughter until you break. these days you ucla physiological science | might feel a shaft of light make its way cjones@physci.ucla.edu | across your face. and when you do you'll (310) 825-6528 voice __ | know how it was meant to be. see the signs (310) 206-9184 fax \/ | and know their meaning. -- 10,000 maniacs 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52234">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52234" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm planning on getting a stylewriter ii for my mac se (2.5 mb ram, hd, two 800k floppy drives). do any of you out there have any recommendations as to whether running system 6.0.8 is better or worse than switching to 7.1. i don't do much real work on this machine any more, but would like to keep it for word processing (using word 4 and don't see much advantage to going to word 5, since it is slower). any help or comments would be appreciated. thanks in advance. martin lin triumvir@cco.caltech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52236">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52236" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i am boring my sister hp deskjet 500c for the weekend and i was wondering in their was any drivers for it available some where that would allow me to use it with my mac se/30. i have a copy of macprint but i do think that i have a driver for the 500c. i would be happy to get it working in black & white, but if there is away to get the color working that would be better. any ideas someone? robert r. hardesty hardesty@meiko.com customer support engineer tele: (617) 890-7676 meiko scientific corporation fax: (617) 890-5042 1601 trapelo rd. waltham, ma 02154 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52238">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52238" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 double speed performance from a cd drive does not require scsi-2 interfacing. the resultant 300 kbps speed is well within the transfer rate of an lc. in other words, i believe you have been given incorrect information. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52239">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52239" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi, there! i have a mac lc and consider buying cd300. i've been told, however, that: 1. the double speed of cd300 is achievable only on machines with scsi-2. wrong, the cd300 (external) is just a plain ol' scsi device. 2. the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability, which i need. no, multisession capability and double speed are two different thing. its just that the newer cd rom drives have both capability. multisession means that when you put more pictures on a photo cd after the first session, the drive can read and display them. double speeds just transfer any type of data (excluding sound) at around double the speed. 3. which means i seem to gain nothing compared with, say cd150. cd150 is not multisession capable. this means that you lose the ability to add any more pictures after the first time (must buy a new cd). finally, since the cd150 is not a double speed drive, it will require twice as long to transfer data (excluding sound). michael m. savitski tel: (040) 8998-3560 desy-deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax: (040) 8998-3093 notkestr. 85, d2000 hamburg 52, germany (040) 8994-4385 internet : h01sav@dsyibm.desy.de decnet : vxdesy::savitski 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52241">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52241" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 sorry for the delay in replying; your message only showed up today (23 apr) on apple.com. quickdraw gx is not a replacement for quickdraw; the two of them live quite happily together. you may write an app that only uses gx if you want, or you may write a hybrid app that uses both. suptayoo. this is something i asked before, but i don't think i got an answer, or maybe i lost the answer, or maybe it's just an obvious question (:->). will the gx stuff (on-line docs etc.) be available on the develop cds, or will it only go out to people in the developer's program and such? just curious. --steve lane 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52243">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52243" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a rep at the dealer (actually it's a university order center, so they don't have any immediate financial interest), told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris 610. he didn't go into details, but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files. it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine. he's not recommending the centris 610 to anybody; he says to consider a centris 650 or a iivx. (why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don't know, but that's what he said.) so, what does the net think? did the dealer just get one flaky machine, or did apple send the c610 out the door too early? is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? jay scott scott@cs.uiuc.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52245">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52245" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a rep at the dealer (actually it's a university order center, so they don't have any immediate financial interest), told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris 610. he didn't go into details, but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files. it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine. he's not recommending the centris 610 to anybody; he says to consider a centris 650 or a iivx. (why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don't know, but that's what he said.) so, what does the net think? did the dealer just get one flaky machine, or did apple send the c610 out the door too early? is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? my 610 is working great. i haven't heard of any problems. sounds to me like your dealer doesn't know what he's talking about. it's pretty irresponsible to not reccomend the centris 610 on the basis of problems with one machine. recommending the iivx over the lciii doesn't make a lot of sense either. if this person is so convinced the 610 is buggy have they talked to apple about it or are they just assuming it's a problem with all of them? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52246">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52246" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner. as the title says, all that is printed on it is national instruments nb-dma-8. it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board. it looks like it has an hp-ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top (2 rows by 25 pins). it also looks like it has an intel processor on it (#a82380-16 intel '86) on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p/n 700584-01. anybody ever seen or heard of one? or better yet, do you know what it does? we are all clueless here. our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out. thanks a lot! | um, i forget... | kmradke@iastate.edu | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52252">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52252" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i would like to find out about the adb connector on the back of the macintosh powerbooks. after seeing several products that use it for powering devices on the powerbook i also thought up of something to power from the adb connector (the keyboard/mouse connector) does anyone have spex on it.... i know it has voltage on it and a serial i/o of some sort if some kind soul could tell me the way you talk to the mac through it (ie packet info) it would be appreciated greatly!!!!! on a second note, what are the pin outs of the mac powerbook modem connector .. i have would like to know which pins are +5v, data etc... again thanks! charles purwin internet: purwinc@woods.ulowell.edu actually, unix is a very user-friendly system. its just that it is particular about which users it chooses to be friendly with. -the oracle programmers and programs alike need die gracefully upon failure, and exit with no system disruption. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52254">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52254" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 in my quest for speed, i've run into a problem. 66.66 mhz and 80 mhz clock oscillators are available but i haven't found any speeds between 66.66 and 70 mhz for further testing. fox electronics (813) 693-0099 can make custom oscillators but if anyone knows a source cheaper than $12/osc please let me know. some 68 and 70 mhz units would complete my speed trials on the old q700 guy kuo <guykuo@u.washington.edu> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52257">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52257" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm also interested in mac based bbs, but not in chicago. i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area. preferably (818) but also (213). thanks. dan sure thing. here are the firstclass systems in those area codes: macvalley online burbank, ca (818) 840-0518 the drawing board hacienda heights, ca (818) 965-6241 bps hollywood, ca (213) 874-1919 sangabriel valley mug pasadena, ca (818) 790-5426 don't forget the lamg (los angeles macintosh group) bbs! it's the bbs for the largest mac-only user group in the country now that bmug is multi-platform. the number is (310)559-macs (559-6227) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52258">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52258" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have a brand new, never used 12 inch mac to scsi cable for sale. i'm asking for $15 + shipping......tell me if this is too high....i don't think it is.. | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52259">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52259" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 has anyone heard of a scsi device that can capture video? we need some sort of device that can capture about 10 frames or so per second, and work off the scsi bus. the idea is to use it for some sort of conferencing application. "if i told you all that went down, it would burn off both your ears..." these thoughts are only my own. chbeck@anl.gov 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52261">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52261" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i recently bought a pli 21mgbyte floptical drive, and i was very happy with it until i tried to use it to format a 1.4 hd diskette. i put the hd floppy in my superdrive to check that the floptical had formatted it correctly, and now my superdrive refuses to recognize any floppy (it says "this disk is unreadable" and asks if i want to format it) even original systems floppies from apple. nor will it format the disks if i try to ("initialization failed!") strangely enough the floptical still reads both the 21 mb and 1.4 hd disks, but i cant look at my 800k floppies, and if i have a crash i'm screwed because the floptical can't be used as a start-up disk. pli has been unresponsive. any ideas? has this happened to anyone before? i was looking for an inexpensive storage solution, and now i am looking at an expensive repair. help! respond to this thread, or email mfeldman@acs.bu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52264">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52264" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the price you have on the 650 8/80 seems very good. i too would like to know where it is fromif it is not giving away secrets. thanks, alan. **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52265">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52265" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have done several of these upgrades (about 6 iisi's, and 1 quadra 700), and the best thing to use would be some sort of "heat sink compound". if possible, you should look for the silicon-free stuff. there's a comany who makes the stuff called tech spray, their address is: p.o. box 949, amarillo, tx 79105. you should be wary in using most kinds of tape; and definately don't use duct tape  that stuff is for ducts... when using the heat sink glue or compound, only use enough to fill the small space between the heat sink and the cpu. mario murphy **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52267">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52267" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i've turned my monitor on and off with the cpu running many times. each time i wonder what i am doing to my cpu by directly hooking in such a high current draw on its lines while it is running. does this put a substantial spike on the power line? could one possibly lose data or damage equipment? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52269">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52269" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner. as the title says, all that is printed on it is national instruments nb-dma-8. it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board. it looks like it has an hp-ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top (2 rows by 25 pins). it also looks like it has an intel processor on it (#a82380-16 intel '86) on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p/n 700584-01. anybody ever seen or heard of one? or better yet, do you know what it does? we are all clueless here. our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out. it's made by (surprise) national instruments: 6504 bridge point parkway austin, tx 78730-5039 (800) 433-3488 anonymouse ftp at: ftp.natinst.com their 1991 catalog lists the nb-8g as follows: fetch and deposit dma controller (8 channels) ieee-488 interface with data rates up to 850 kb/sec, with dma and programmed i/o 8 16-bit counter timer channels rtsi bus (that's the connector on the top of the board - it links it with other national instrument boards list price of $1295 the board isn't in later catalogs: it has been superceeded by the nb-dma2800. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52271">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52271" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner. as the title says, all that is printed on it is national instruments nb-dma-8. it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board. it looks like it has an hp-ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top (2 rows by 25 pins). it also looks like it has an intel processor on it (#a82380-16 intel '86) on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p/n 700584-01. anybody ever seen or heard of one? or better yet, do you know what it does? we are all clueless here. our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out. thanks a lot! it is a data aquisition board for the mac ii series. it is called the dma board with gpib interface. you may call ni at 800-ieee-488 to find out more about it. hope this helps. saiid paryavi saiid paryavi paryavi@matt.ksu.ksu.edu saiid@cis.ksu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52272">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52272" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 hi!! i have a question: which is the diference between performa 450 and lciii? i want to know which is better. if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers, can you tell me by email to ----> rcvillab@isluga.puc.cl i'd like to know the diference between the apple monitor('14) and the performa monitor too. performa 200 == classic ii performa 400 == lc ii performa 4xx == lc iii performa 600 == well, nothing :) the performas are made to be low-cost business solutions. the 4xx have bundled software, modems, etc. because they have no "retail price" you might be able to get a steeper discount on them. shop around. as far as the monitors go, buy 3rd party. much cheaper. "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. hmmm... that's not quite right. the performa 600 is real darn close to the iivx (but a better buy imo). i also don't think they are so much a 'low-cost business solution', but a low-cost _home_ solution. why else bundle at ease (among other things)? hardly a business what do you mean by 'no "retail price"'. quite the contrary, i think. the price is darn near the same all across the country. that (again, imo) was one of the selling points of the performas -- ie: no haggling required. kinda like the saturn (car) of the computer set. one price, medium performance, ready to go. when i shopped for my performa (600cd), the difference between sears (*sigh), montgomery wards, silo (*sigh), circuit city (*sigh*) and bizmart (*sigh*) couldn't have been $100.00. why i chose one over the other was based solely on availability and a friendly salesman who went the extra mile (when did you last hear that about someone who sells apples?). admittedly, except for montgomery wards (and i suspect i was just lucky) all of the salesfolk i spoke to didn't know didly about the computers, peecee or mac. but then, neither did any of the apple dealers i spoke with... if you would've told me a year ago that i would buy a macintosh from montgomery wards i woulda laughed for a long, long time. go figure. i'm *real* happy with my performa. oh, and i bought the apple performa plus monitor (vs. buying 3rd party). happy with that decision as well. i walked in, plopped down some cash, and walked out with a spankin' new computer the day before christmas. instrument approach procedures automation dot/faa/ami-230 bryan d. oakley ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52274">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52274" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? a lot of the time, when you're dealing with someone who has no financial interest in selling you the machine, you get a lot of opinion (as opposed to factual information, etc.). what it sounds like to me is that this guy has had an experience with one flaky centris 610 and formed an all-encompassing opinion on the rest of the 610's. i've seen lots of yes, that is what it sounds like to me, too. but before i spend da bucks, i want to make sure i'm right. i do have e-mail from a (self-confessed :-) apple-hater listing a few common problems with the c610, but nothing i can't get fixed under warranty. so, anybody else? great or lousy? jay scott scott@cs.uiuc.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52275">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52275" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a rep at the dealer (actually it's a university order center, so they don't have any immediate financial interest), told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris 610. he didn't go into details, but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files. it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine. he's not recommending the centris 610 to anybody; he says to consider a centris 650 or a iivx. (why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don't know, but that's what he said.) so, what does the net think? did the dealer just get one flaky machine, or did apple send the c610 out the door too early? is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? jay scott scott@cs.uiuc.edu mine works great, so far...... hasit s. mehta **************************** university of rochester * primus sucks! * hm002b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu **************************** ______"i do believe in captain crunch, for i am the frizzle fry"______ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52276">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52276" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 ok...here is my question. i want to hook up my powerbook 160 to a svga monitor but i do not want to buy the powerbook/dos companion. can anyone tell me the exact cable i need to connect them? if there is such a cable, can i purchase it from macwharehouse or some computer store? if i must buy the cable from james engineering, how much do they run and how can i get a hold them??? i guess that was more than 'a' question. :) thanks in advance for any replys. john schrieber e-mail: schriejh@cnsvax.uwec.edu _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52283">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52283" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 couldn't replacement become expensive? **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52284">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52284" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 the first problem was the sound. i tried the m0, but then even the logon was muted. i don't want that. any other suggestions for that hissing? the second is really strange. first, i kept mentioning that fc slowed down all the time and took too long. well i just logged on with extensions off and i didn't have any slowdown. also, last time i was online i quit (which usually disconnects and quits). it disconnected but it wouldn't quit. i had to force quit, and then when i launched fc again it said the modem port was in use. this is really strange. i thought it might have to do with fax software. or the restart could have reset the modem port (a more likely explanation). so, any suggestions? **** from planet bmug, the firstclass bbs of bmug. the message contained in **** this posting does not in any way reflect bmug's official views. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52288">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52288" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i own a iisi and i'm considering buying a powerbook. can anyone give me a listing of all the models and tell me what i'm looking for, i.e. passive matrix vs. active, memory sizes, upgradeability, internal modems, disk size. if you could provide some prices too that would help. i'm not informed enough on powerbooks to know how well they operate. i have been following the posts on some of the problems that have been encountered such as the trackball not working in the horizontal. i would appreciate the list as well as any advice you may have. thanks in advance. kordi a. wichita state university 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52289">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52289" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix (i.e. next) 3.5 in. disks? warren@laplace.biology.yale.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52293">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52293" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 so, what does the net think? did the dealer just get one flaky machine, or did apple send the c610 out the door too early? is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? my 610 is working like a charm.. in fact, if 610's are flaky, i would consider it a great computer even if i had to return a couple to apple to get a good one. samuel christian zehr zeh1@midway.uchicago.edu bio computing labs whitman 108 915 e. 57th st. chicago, il 60637 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52294">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52294" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i have a small network running in my dorm at school, and i am kind of worried about the length of the wires and the way that i have run it. i was wondering if anyone might have some schematic or at least some ideas on how to make some sort of simple appletalk repeater. i'm not so interested in making actual zones and zone names, just a way to isolate different branches of the network. does anyone have any ideas on what could be done?? thanks alot, dave sugar udsugar@mcs.drexel.edu st90rjr4@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52295">
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 hi, i just test installed kanjitalk 6.07 on my iici and got a black screen, a way sick looking mac icon, and when hitting the programmers reset, a tone sequence that i guess is the infamous "tones of death." i was able to reboot off a floppy, removed the japanese system, and set up the system folder on the hard drive to get system 7.01 back. now have no overt problems with the mac. any idea what caused the tones? i forget the numbers but 7fff comes to mind. if it is some self diagnostic, why would an older system version catch it, and not 7. ? (i'll be moving up to 7.1 and worldscript by-and-by) thanks in advance, hiroki morizono department of biochemistry 612.624.4938 university of minnesota 612.625.5780 (fax) 1479 gortner avenue hiroki@limerick.cbs.umn.edu st paul mn 55108 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52296">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52296" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i bought a stylewriter ii a couple months ago, and lately, when i print something, i notice white lines or "gaps" running through the line being printed. it's almost like the paper is advancing a smidge too far when advancing lines. i replaced the ink cartridge thinking it might be the problem, but the lines are still there. has anyone else noticed this problem? what's the best way to get rid of it? | brian s. davidson | internet: bsd9554@ultb.isc.rit.edu | i had a similar problem with my stylewriter i (the original!). have you tried cleaning the print heads? with the swii driver, it's and option in the print dialog box. sometimes i had to do it several times to get the crud out. yes it wastes ink, but it beats those white annoying lines. another idea is to print a couple of pages with just a big black box. it can help to get the ink flowing. good luck! beth corbo corbo@lclark.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52298">
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 interesting delema for all those out there. my school is discussing installing a mac lab of 10 to 15 stations for our bio 100 to 103 classes to do a study with pig disections. (no joke) here is the deal. we can get this grant to do a study on if it is more feasible to do a disection via the computer or via the real thing. my problem is i was somehow drawn into this project (being done by students who want to go mac but know nada about them, being the man mac man on campus, guess who they came to?) so i wnt to know what would probably be the best hardware to fill the follwoing list? right now we are looking at the c650 8/80 and the 2vx 5/80 platforms. ok here it goes: we are using cd-rom, so ought we go with the internal apple cd-roms offered as options in the 650 and vx or go external. it is a matter of price and reliability, the second being very important. how much ram? i was thinking 5-8 more leaning towards 8? what do you ok, called apple educational discounts and they said their keyboard (extended) is 160.30. is it better to go with the apple and their long time great wear and tear record, or is there a 3rd party extended keyboard that is just a reliable? price? printers: one color printer we are presently leaning towrds the thermal wax tektronic 200e or 200i (probably the e as we are going to limit access so we don't needed the i's networkability) so, what do you think in terms of color printers? different brand? kind (dye sublimation? ink jet?) price? companies? 1800 #s? also, we are looking to get a laser printer or such to network into the whole lab for noraml printing. the fornt runner is the apple pro650 (is that right don't have my notes here?) at 1650. suggestions? we have kids using these things all day if this lab goes through and they know nothing about it for the most part. it has to be reliable, easy to maintain, and economical (ie, not high priced paper cartidges, etc). finally, and this is my little dig into the project. what about netting these things? we have ether nearby and i would like to slap the macs on the net, but, server? individual ether? forget about it it is going to be astronomically priced and the school is going to laugh at you when you ask little more info, i am a poli sci major who just happens to know alot about macs but this is a bit out of my league, not to mention i don't have the time to go and look for all of this stuff. so i am hoping the collective resources and intelect of the net can help (has before) [shameless plug: buy empower!!! great security program!!!] disclaimer: this post is not and will never be supported by my university. they do not condone in any way my using this media to illict info. this is a proj by bio majors so they re the real persons. anyinfo please send to the email above or to make it real clear rmwbb@wittenberg.edu and damn i hope my editor is alive when i get done typing s there is not another stupid blank post. i reserve the right to claim all this info as mine and use it to get everything i want form my universities red taped administration. this info may be used for blackmail purposes and for obtaining undo amounts of praise and god like status. this info may also be used to get credits i probaly really don't that is the ned of it. any questions? and thanks ahead of time!! once again taping the collective genius of the internet, scott d. sauer 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52301">
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 i am, at long last, going to replace my beloved 512ke. i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici. prices have yet to be worked out, so i'm just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks. here's what i've thought of: the iici has much greater potential for expansion, a la nubus and greater memory capacity. the lc iii would be new, under warranty, newer roms (is the iici "32-bit clean"?), and would have sound input. i also like the "pizza-box" case. performance-wise, i have read that they are almost identical, the lc iii being a little slower. so, which should i get? erik@cheshire.oxy.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52304">
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 i am running system 7.1 on a centris 610. i have not been able to setup my printer yet because when i open chooser, i get a blank screen. i do have all kinds of print drivers but none shows up. i even do not get a port iconn either. it is just one big blank screen. your help is very appreciated. btw i did rebuild the desktop but that did not help either. bizhan.............. bizhan@netcom.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52305">
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 giday netters! just got a used newlife 25 accelerator, with fpu, and i was wondering about a few points. -anyone know the current driver version for it?? -can it handle the 16-bit grayscale card, if i get the video option -why would it be hating my hard drive?(can't use the accelerator and hard drive at the same time). do i need a new driver on my drive? what make? blakey@ug.cs.dal.ca -> he's big! he's purple! he's your best friend! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52306">
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 here's my system desc: 4 megs on the main board, 1 on the accelerator board mac -plus, with the most recent roms (d) trying to run system 6, but would like to run 7 the hard drive is a jasmine, works fine if i start up with the accelerator disabled i also seem to get the problem of when i try to start up from floppy with the hard-drive disconnected, all i get is the disk loading, but the screen is black, except for a happy mac in the middle, and it never gets anywhere blakey@ug.cs.dal.ca -> he's big! he's purple! he's your best friend! 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52307">
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 according to what i saw in a store today, the performa 405 is not the same as an lciii. it only has a 16mhz 68030 while the lciii has a 25mhz 030. correct me if i am wrong, because it is possible that the dealer may have forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer. dealers who sell the performa are known to have about as much knowledge about macs as i do about dos machines. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52310">
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 |> having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer is yes. |> at |> least for the 600x400 configuration. you can get an adaptor called |> mac |> vga -q from james engineering (510) 525 7350 and this will let you |> display 600x400 and 800x600 if the monitor is capable. i think the |> 800x600 requires 56khz horizontal sync. i use this on my sony 1604. |> |> (gives a slightly wider screen than the 832x624 adaptor. i am using a nec 4fg with my centris 610. the cable adapter was provided by nec (you have to call to get this free adapter). i am also sharing it with my 486 (using a switch box and extra cables). my questions: how do you tell if it is 600x400 or 800x600 that was displayed? or how do you change the mode(resolution)? is there sw for this or something i have to do with the hw? i am assuming i am getting 800x600 since i have 1m vram and the 4fg can display 1028x768(?) with my 486. nicholas pang nyp00@cd.amdahl.com amdahl corporation nyp00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52311">
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 i was wondering if what many of you did to accelerate your iisi's from 20 mhz to 25 mhz (and beyond) can be done to a iici (ie. from 25 mhz to 32-33 mhz)? stephen tseng st14@cornell.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52318">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52318" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 the 486 at the same clock is not as fast as the 040 at the same clock speed. the '040 also has much better floating point unit. now the dx2-66 is faster than the '040 at 33mhz. but for your reference the 486 at 33 mhz gets ~14mips while the '040 at 33mhz gets ~20mips. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52324">
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 does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix (i.e. next) 3.5 in. disks? warren@laplace.biology.yale.edu i don't know the answer to your direct question, but if the mac superdrive can read ms-dos disks (can it??) then you can transfer files between the next and a mac by using ms-dos formatted disks since the next *can* read/write that format. and if you're interested in transferring files, you can also do it over the serial port using kermit. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52325">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52325" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 hi- do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos? or in the powerbook in general? what are the factors that make the duo 210 so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed (25mhz 68030)? how many wait states are in the memory system, etc? what kind of a data bus does it use? 32-bit or 16-bit? huh? where did you get this idea from? i think you got this backwards. the duo's memory is faster than its equivalent desktop machine by 5-10% (and the rest of the powerboks). i think the explanation for this was that it can refresh faster (in 2 instead of 5 cycles i believe). things that could affect performance would be factors such as use of functions enhanced in the fpu (which the duo doesn't have undocked). extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too. real life differences in speed are likely to be influence by the software you are running, what kind of screen depth you are running etc. ps! the duo is 32-bit through-out. thanks for the enlightening post. is there a technical note on this? the desktop machine i was referring to was actually not a mac, but rather, any of various workstations that use the 68030@25mhz, such as old suns or old nexts. i used to own a next 68030 cube. but i will try rebooting without extensions to see what kind of a speed difference i get with my powerbook duo. i did notice an extreme slowdown to unusability with a mac plus after installing system 7 on it. why does the os suck up so much cpu also, you're right--software does make a huge difference. i have the misfortune of using ms-works on my duo. when editing relatively small (40k) files, cut or copy takes several seconds, often more than 6 seconds!! this happens with power cycling turned off. as usual, ms software is maggot-infested i'm getting nisus to replace it for my text editing. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52326">
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 has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort "such-and-such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory"? or am i the only one suffering from this delusion? --marc bizer this can be solved by going into your system folder and do a get info (command i) on the finder and give it more memory. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52327">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52327" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 this is a bad idea. my machine is on 24 hours a day, but it's _doing_ things 24 hours a day. i use it as an all purpose alarm scheduler, i've got routines that run in the middle of the night, calls it makes during the day when i'm out. if your machine is _on_ 24 hours a day, then you can count on it to be _working_ 24 hours a day. i could call it from work and download a file that i might need, i could call it work and have it turn the lights on if i'm going to be late (oops, wasted electricity -- but conversely, i could have it turn the _off_). heck, i suppose i could even connect the microwave and have ready when i get there. oh well. nevermind. i'm just babbling. all of those things that you've mention can still be accomplished when the machine is "power down." when the previous poster said "power down", it doesn't mean turning off the machine, it just means that the machine in an energy conserving mode that sucks up least electricity. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52328">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52328" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 [story about dealing having problems w/c610's deleted] so, what does the net think? did the dealer just get one flaky machine, or did apple send the c610 out the door too early? is your c610 working just great, or is it buggy too? i've had my c610 for about six weeks now with no problems whatsoever. it's been "customized" with--- * replaced the apple-quantum 80 drive with a connor 212 drive. * installed a tandberg scsi tape drive in the internal bay which works just fine (though apple doesn't seem to be supplying front panel bezels w/ a standard 5.25" cutout...). it's hooked up to an apple laserwriter plus and has no printing problems at all, tested printing complex photoshop graphics. it has expanded vram and extra 8 meg simm, no problems. so in sum, i have no idea what this dealer is complaining about. fred martin | fredm@media.mit.edu | (617) 253-7143 | 20 ames st. rm. e15-301 epistemology and learning group, mit media lab | cambridge, ma 02139 usa 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52333">
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 + i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici. prices + the iici has much greater potential for expansion, a la nubus and + greater memory capacity. depends on the price you can get the ci for. educationally speaking, the 4/80 [?] lciii here at fsu can be had at just under $1300. add in roughly $500 for a monitor. last i'd heard, an 8mb lciii simm went for ~$250. i think you're in a win-win situation. no matter what you decide, you'll most likely be happy with it. yes, and one thing to think about is the pricing on the 160m harddrive configuration. when i got my lowly classic ii, the options were 40 or 80m harddrives, and it was clear that buying another 40m of harddrive space would cost *much* more than the difference in price between the two config- uartions. there is an analogous break in the lciii/80 and 160 prices, and you will not regret spending the extra money for a larger harddrive. particularly if you ever wind up wanting to use softpc, which sets up a several-mb (up to 30!) partition, or if you are generating large files with dtp software, or if you might ever want to check out a mac unix-like os, like machten, having the extra space will be helpful. when you are pricing used iici's, look at the harddrive size they come with, and how much it would cost you to add more storage down the road... (might be a useful bargaining strategy even if you see no reason to go over 80m, though i must admit that i am such a packrat that within 6 months of getting my computer, i was backing up a lot of stuff to floppies that i rarely use to because i was running out of space, without having started using dtp stuff, softpc or trying any unix os!) bell@minerva.cis.yale.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52334">
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 in a previous article, aa341@freenet.carleton.ca (david a. hughes) says: does anyone know what hardware is required and where i could find it for sound recording on the mac portable. all you have to do is buy a macromedia macrecorder. this plugs into your seril port and acts as a microphone. north star computers should be able to order you one. liam morland ad358@freenet.carleton.ca 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52335">
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 i remember someone mention about a 150meg syquest. has anyone else heard anything about this? i'd be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli 150. bernoulli also offer 20mb floppy drives that read 1.4mb floppies. their 150mb multidisk reads all formats. and writes 90mb. bernoulli's are installed in industrial computers...much more rugged than syquest....you get what you pay for i guess....haven't heard about 150mb syquest??? thanks...... _/_/_/ truemner@mac-truemner.rd.hydro.on.ca _/ _/ _/ _/ ontario hydro.automated.ndt&welding.r&d _/_/_/ _/_/_/ (416)207 6380.fax:237 9285.toronto.canada _/ _/ 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52336">
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 i'd like to put internal disks in a mac ii. i understand that ones needs a special "jumper" cable to acheive this. does anyone know a source for these? thanks, mike pazzani (pazzani@ics.uci.edu) 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52337">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52337" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 : > i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc. the card : > is manufactured by asante. on it i can read: : > "asante tech, inc. copyright 1991. maccon + lc rev.b". : > the card has an fpu socket on it. it provides thin ethernet connector : > and there's another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors. : > my questions are: : > - will this card work on any other model than lc-serie ?, given that : > it's a pds card, will it work with the iisi pds slot ?. i think there : > may be a probleme because the lc has 16 bit wide slots. : it probably won't work with any other lc. the ones i have for the lc ii : are rev. d. no, it won't work in the iisi's pds slot since it's a 68030 : pds, while the lc has the 68020 pds. the iisi and se/30 share the same : kind of card. ok, i see. does asante propose any upgrade for their cards ?. do they have an email adress so i can ask them directly ?. their phone number will be ok, even if i pay the overseas call i'm really willing to know what to do with this card. sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | ibaa oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) |lab de genie informatique (lgi). kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten |imag, inpg. baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i) |46, av. felix viallet, grenoble. 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52338">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52338" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i thought i'd share a good experience, too. i bought the aps quantum 240 zero footprint drive in may '92 (back when they still used two separate leds on the front panel and the case was metal). while traveling with it (it was in my se/30 mac bag, on top of the mac) this past winter, one of the plastic tabs holding the front panel on broke, so that the right side of the front panel was coming forward away from the rest of the drive. i lived with this situation until it became completely intolerable (which more or less coincided with a network shutdown at school and a trip out of town i had to take, which gave me some dead time during which to have the drive sent out). i called aps for an rma # and got one, with no questions asked about how the tab got broken (it was handled a little roughly by airline baggage handlers -- though nothing else was damaged [well, except for the internal speaker in my modem, which wasn't that well glued down to begin with] -- yeah, yeah, i'm never flying with my se/30 again). and when i called back to ask whether i could send it in a little later rather than right away, they had no problem with that -- even when i exceeded the normal valid period for an rma # by a day (they're usually good for 10 days). the front panel was replaced under warranty, and the drive was shipped back quickly (i mailed it first class insured on a saturday by noon from l.a. to missouri, and it came back by fed ex by friday [i don't know exactly what day it came back because i was traveling that week from wednesday afternoon to sunday afternoon]). the only thing that could've been bad was that the first service rep i talked to, in an attempt to prevent jeopardizing my data, suggested that i take the drive mechanism out and send just the case. unfortunately, i discovered the day i was mailing the thing, that would necessitate breaking the little seal and thus voiding the warranty! oh, well. albert@seas.ucla.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52342">
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 a professor of mine once said "the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about $5000" meaning the engineer makes $5000 more than p.s. the $5000 is not just a joke for the most part, this is a bunch of bunk. i've got a computer engineering degree, yet i've spent the last 7 years writing software that people actually use. moreover, the salary distinctions are incorrect; i received 3 job offers upon graduation; the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were $7000/year lower! my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you, and pick the major that allows you to take them. well here is my $0.02 worth. advice from a grad student. i agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before me. the important thing is pick what ever interest you the most and learn as much as possible about it. in my five years of education in this field, though brief compare to alot of people, i had to think about this kind of question a lot. did i make the right decision in going into electrical engineering as opposed to computer engineering or cs? the more i go thru school, the more i believe that this kind of question is irrelevant. interesting, as i think computer technology is now becomming widespread enough now that it is no longer a position which must require a degree. i know of several people i work with that make just as much as i do and they don't even have a bs degree in comp sci. yet they make 28+ a year. they also didn't have to pay 30 grand to thier local university either. :( i think computer programming is being reduced to a trade practice, than a truly specialty field. it will be even more so in the future. if your interested in cutting edge type of stuff and you choose cs as i did, i suggest checking out the emerging field of software engineering. the difficulties for example of designing scaleable design environments for individuals so that a single person can handle 100,000 to 1,000,000 million lines of code all by himself in a reasonable manner and then incorporate that into a teamwork enviroment is truly a gigantic problem...not going to be solved any time soon unfortunately...but hey you could be the person that provides the missing key for some good groundwork! i have come to believe that choosing cs because one does not like hardware or choosing hardware because one does not like to program is really doing an injustice of building and computer and making it useful for something. everything is interwoven and inseparable. cs, ce, and ee are all a part of a really great discipline and do depend on each other. my advice is don't limit yourself, but make a decision based on which major will give you the best opportunities to learn. that of course depends on the curriculum at your persective school. i would choose a major that allows me to explore as much as possible. beside, i don't know why the school would make a student choose a major before her/his sophamore year. hey you may be so interested in this field that you decided to learn all about the making of computers in which case, you suffer a little more and go to grad school. about the money. don't look at the averages, if you are good, you are going to earn more money than anyone else. if you are a superstar programmer, you will earn millions. like wise if you are a hotshot computer designers. well, if your like the poor slobs in the world..like me, you are in no financial position to continue graduate work right out of a top 10 comp sci school. the trick is, to find some generous inc you work for to pay for the rest of your education...trust me its the best way to go..even if you don't get a top salary. which i have always been a poor slob throughout school but if you follow this rule: book=salary=food&shelter you should always have a computer and you won't go hungry. what else could a man want?! - chung yang -greg carter 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52344">
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 two meg. sim that came from a pb100 for sale. i am asking $60 (postage included). if you are interested please e-mail me via internet. if you do have internet availability you may contact me at 301/468-0241. * reply to donald lyles * * internet: dcl@his.com * 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52345">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52345" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
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 i recently accelerated my mac plus (micromac 25mhz accelerator) and now i can't get my mac to boot off of the hard disk. it boots fine from a floppy, and i can mount the hard disk using scsi probe, but i cannot get it to boot from the hard drive. i installed a new driver, so i don't think that is the problem. this poses a rather large problem. i only have 4 meg of ram, and i need to run mathematica, which requires 5 meg. i was hoping to use system 7 virtual memory so that i could run mathematica. however, i can't run system 7 from a floppy, so i can't get enough ram. any suggestions? thanks for your time-- chrisw@yang.earlham.edu 
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<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52347">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52347" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup. one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose. next time you power down the computer, check that all cables are on tight. i remember a simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons. does anyone know where that is? this was circa 1988, i think. a quick search of the index at mac.archive.umich.edu shows the following as available by anonymous ftp from that site: /mac/util/developer/diagnosticsoundsampler.hqx 9 7/24/90 binhex4.0 that "chord" you hear when you push the start-up on your mac ii means more than just "i'm on". it's passed it's internal test. this utility explains what the various sounds stand for (i.e. various stages of ram testing...) jonathan brecher brecher@mac.archive.umich.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52404">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52404" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 my co-worker has just attached a magneto-optical drive to his mac. works great for him. however, he tried to turn on file sharing, but it wouldn't work. had some message about "not all volumes are shareable" so - has anyone had success in sharing mos? if so, please tell me how! he needs insert the mo before filesharing get turned on, and the only one that can see the disk is the owner of the machine. (i'm not sure but seems that the check "allow owner to see entire disk" should be enabled too). a bad thing: you can't eject the disk until fs is turned off. hope that helps. pablo a. millan l. | mis opiniones son mias (pero te las puedo vender) email : pablo@ing.puc.cl | seeds limitada, santiago, chile "research is what i'm doing when i don't know what i'm doing" -- w. von braun 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52407">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52407" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have an old apple rgb monitor for a iigs which looks a whole lot like the 12" monitor. i have the sneaking suspicion that if i had the right cable i could use it on my mac. does anyone know if my suspicions are correct or am i just full of it. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52433">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52433" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i just got my new c650. it does not seem to come with a microphone. damn! the c650 comes with a microphone if you get the cd-rom drive. all other configurations don't include one. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52435">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52435" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i used to hate it when people posted messages like this, but now that i am contemplating a purchase, i can see why they do. so, has anyone heard of any upcoming (within the next 6 months) advances in the powerbook line? can we expect to see a powerpc powerbook at some point in the future (i assume an 040 would take too much power and generate too much heat for installation in a powerbook)? thanks for your help. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52436">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52436" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 what is the actual clock speed of a centris 610? 20 mhz or 25 mhz thanks in advance... peter white pw4963@csc.albany.edu pwhite@mac.archive.umich.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52439">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52439" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 applied engineering used to sell a 3.5" disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote 1.6 meg on a hd disk. i wonder if the drive would work on a mac, since i'm using my old 3.5" drive from my iigs on my iisi now. just a | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.software summary: expires: references: <c64j1n.hpq@csulb.edu> sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: homewood academic computing, johns hopkins university, baltimore, md, usa a friend of mine who owns a pc said that he recently got a program that can format a disk that can exceed the normal capacity of a hd disk. apparently it rewrites the driver or takes or the driver or _something_ that allows it get more space out of a normal hd floppy disk. it supposedly gets upto 1.6 megs (so something like 1640k?). i don't have the program - since i can't use it and its supposed to be called something like "form16" or something like that. my question is whether its possible to do this on the mac and if its not possible is it due to hardware limitations. a developer friend of mine said that it might be possible but he doesn't deal with this aspect of the field thanks for any information contributed. applied engineering used to sell a 3.5" disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote 1.6 meg on a hd disk. i wonder if the drive would work on a mac, since i'm using my old 3.5" drive from my iigs on my iisi now. just a | _____/ \_____ | | | tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee | | | tt ee vv vv ee | /---/ | tt eeee vv vv eeee | steve liu | | | tt ee vvv ee .. | drlovemd@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu | |_________/ tt eeeee v eeeee .. | drlovemd@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52441">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52441" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 iv'e got a problem printing with a stylewriterii. i am printing from a iivx with 20 megs ram. i am trying to print a quark file that has 2 fonts a couple of boxes and 3 gradient fills. two things happen: i get a " disk is full" error, that i can't find documented, i also have parts of letters that are over one of the gradient fills get cut off. this only happens to the text over the fill. text adjecent in a different box is uneffected. any ideas? thanks for the help...-- karl jacobs / jacobs@cerritos.edu --------------------------------------------- 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52442">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52442" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 a friend is heavily into midi and is using a quadra 900 (maybe 950) with all but one nubus slot populated with arcane music hardware and a video card. he reports 8 bit video is too slow for good real-time display of what he needs to see. he also reports that the built-in video is even worse. he's not a mac guru, and i haven't seen the system, so this is about all i know. i suspect that his nubus is heavily loaded, and think improvements might come from a switch to an accelerated pds slot video card. does this sound right? who makes a pds accelerated video card for the quadra thats worth looking at? any other suggestions? thanks in advance! email: agorski@mitre.org arthur m. gorski (713) 333-0980 snail: the mitre corporation, 1120 nasa road one, houston, texas 77058 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52444">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52444" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to find a program that will stop the macs from spitting out their boot disk. i was told one exists but i can't find it. anyone know where i can find it? robert harvey duty programmer information technology victoria university s9131783@valiant.vut.edu.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.sys.mac.hardware52446">
<answer instance="comp.sys.mac.hardware52446" senseid="comp.sys.mac.hardware"/>
<context>
 i have some questions about this subject. i like to leave my computer on if i think i'm going to be using it withing the next 2 or 3 hours, but i get sick of my dad constantly coming up to me and asking "why is the computer on if you're not using it?" i also wonder about my computer being harmed by fluctuations in voltage from other things (garbage disposal, etc.) here are my questions: how much harm do voltage fluctuations cause? my computer does not share a circuit with anything big but our my light dims when a refrigerator comes on or the garbage disposal is turned on (whose doesn't?), and also when the washing machine does anything. all these things cause a drop in voltage which is harmful to a computer, right? i also notice the fan in my system saver turning at different speeds. is it safer to turn it off and back on when i want to use it or to leave it on? how much electricity does my computer use? i have an apple iigs (ne flames), with a kensington system saver gs (1 electric fan inside), an applecolor rgb monitor, and an external 3.5" hd (1 fan and its own p/s). how do i translate this into kilowatt-hours? also, how much of this is used by the monitor? does the monitor use considerably less juice when the screen is totally black but still on? many computers spin the hd up and down constantly to save power. i always thought this was harmful to the hd and defeats the purpose of leaving the computer on in the first place (except portables). is this true? thanks for the info. i think this will help lots of people. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66399">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66399" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 on a related note, how can i use xv to display colored gifs on my root display with hp vue? all i can do with vue is display xbm's through their backdrop style manager. xv does not seem to be able to override whatever vue puts there. thanks, jan jan vandenbrande jan@ug.eds.com (new address) jan@lipari.usc.edu (school address, forwards) uucp: {uunet, uupsi}!ug!jan 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66401">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66401" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have heard of two packages for the pc that support x-win. the first is linux which is a free unix package. the second is x-appeal, which sounds pretty good. it can be found at garbo.uwusa.fi in the ~ftp/pc/demo/ dir. the files are xap13exe.zip xap10fon.zip drivers.zip this should get you started. + joshua weage : u.s. snail - 277 spring rd, baroda, mi 49101 + + e-mail: cs890@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu | ai900@yfn.ysu.edu + + fidonet: joshua weage @ 1:2340/130 + + all ideas are my own and no one elses!! + 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66402">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66402" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm writing 'xwall', a simple x version of 'wall', and i want it to put a message up on each of a default list of displays. the problem is that xopendisplay hangs if one of the displays is currently controlled by xdm (login screen). i've been through the manuals and faq and don't see a simple way to see if a display is 'openable' ahead of time, or to get xopendisplay to fail after a short period of time. any hints, suggestions, clues, or pointers to info? thanks... andy moore (andy@ice.stx.com) "you could say i've lost faith in the politicians/ they all seem like game show hosts to me..." - sting 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66403">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66403" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm considering writing my own widgets, but i like to have some sample widget source code to look over first. where could i find something like this? are there any archives accessible by anonymous ftp that contain such information? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66404">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66404" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have looked through the faq sections and have not seen a answer for this. i have an x/motif application that i have written. i have a couple of gif files (or pict) that i have scanned in with a color scanner. now i would like to be able to convert the gif files into a format that could be read into my application and displayed on the background of its main window. preferably with pixmaps, or perhaps as an ximage. i have found functions in the pbmplus program suite to convert gif to xbm, but that is monochrome, and i really do need color. i have looked at xv, which reads in gif, and writes out several formats, but have not found a way to write out a file which can be read in as a pixmap. is there an easy way to do this? email responses preferred. thanks! 'mark ahlenius@rtsg.mot.com =============== regards 'mark ============================================= mark ahlenius voice:(708)-632-5346 email: ahlenius@marble.rtsg.mot.com motorola inc. fax: (708)-632-2413 arlington, hts. il, usa 60004 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66409">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66409" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we have received a number of requests for a reposting of the international obfuscated c code contest rules and guidelines. also some people requested that these rules be posted to a wider set of groups. sorry for the cross posting. some technical clarifications were made to the rules and guidelines. (see the diff marks at the right hand edge) the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same, so people who have already or are in the process of submitting entries for the 1993 ioccc need not worry about these changes. chongo <landon curt noll> /\cc/\ chongo@toad.com larry bassel lab@sun.com #!/bin/sh # this is part 02 of a multipart archive # ============= mkentry.c ============== echo "x - extracting mkentry.c (text)" sed 's/^x//' << 'shar_eof' > mkentry.c && x/* @(#)mkentry.c 1.25 4/5/93 15:58:08 */ x/* x * copyright (c) landon curt noll & larry bassel, 1993. x * all rights reserved. permission for personal, education or non-profit use x * is granted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its x * entirety and remains unaltered. all other uses must receive prior x * permission in writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel. x */ x/* x * mkentry - make an international obfuscated c code contest entry x * x * usage: x * mkentry -r remarks -b build -p prog.c -o ioccc.entry x * x * -r remarks file with remarks about the entry x * -b build file containing how prog.c should be built x * -p prog.c the obfuscated program source file x * -o ioccc.entry ioccc entry output file x * x * compile by: x * cc mkentry.c -o mkentry x */ x/* x * placed in the public domain by landon curt noll, 1992. x * x * this software is provided ``as is'' and without any express or implied x * warranties, including, without limitation, the implied warranties of x * merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. x */ x/* x * warning: x * x * this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules. every attempt x * has been made to make sure that this program produces an entry that x * conforms to the contest rules. in all cases, where this program x * differs from the contest rules, the contest rules will be used. be x * sure to check with the contest rules before submitting an entry. x * x * for more information: x * x * you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address: x * x * ...!{apple,pyramid,sun,uunet}!hoptoad!judges (not the address for x * judges@toad.com submitting entries) x * x * questions and comments about the contest are welcome. x * x * the rules and the guidelines may (and often do) change from year to x * year. you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x * prior to submitting entries. to obtain them, send email to the address x * above and use the subject 'send rules'. x * x * one may obtain winners of previous contests (1984 to date), via ftp from: x * x * host: ftp.uu.net (192.48.96.9) x * user: anonymous x * pass: yourname@yourhost x * dir: ~/pub/ioccc x * x * as a last resort, previous winners may be obtained by sending email x * to the above address. please use the subject 'send year winners', x * where year is a single 4 digit year, a year range, or 'all'. x * x * because contest rules change from year to year, one should only use this x * program for the year that it was intended. be sure that the rule_year x * define below matches this current year. x */ x#include <stdio.h> x#include <ctype.h> x#include <time.h> x#include <sys/types.h> x#include <sys/stat.h> x/* logic */ x#ifndef true x# define true 1 x#endif /* true */ x#ifndef false x# define false 0 x#endif /* false */ x#define eof_ok true x#define eof_not_ok false x/* global limits */ x#define rule_year 1993 /* note: should match the current year */ x#define start_date "1mar92 0:00 utc" /* first confirmation received */ x#define max_col 79 /* max column a line should hit */ x#define max_build_size 256 /* max how to build size */ x#define max_program_size 3217 /* max program source size */ x#define max_program_size2 1536 /* max program source size not counting x whitespace and {}; not followed by x whitespace or eof */ x#define max_title_len 12 /* max chars in the title */ x#define max_entry_len 1 /* max length in the entry input line */ x#define max_entry 8 /* max number of entries per person per year */ x#define max_file_len 1024 /* max filename length for a info file */ x/* where to send entries */ x#define entry_addr1 "...!{apple,pyramid,sun,uunet}!hoptoad!obfuscate" x#define entry_addr2 "obfuscate@toad.com" x/* uuencode process - assumes ascii */ x#define uuencode(c) (encode_str[(int)(c)&0xff]) x#define uuencode_len 45 /* max uuencode chunk size */ x#define uuinfo_mode 0444 /* mode of an info file's uuencode file */ x#define uubuild_mode 0444 /* mode of the build file's uuencode file */ x#define uubuild_name "build" /* name for the build file's uuencode file */ x#define uuprog_mode 0444 /* mode of the program's uuencode file */ x#define uuprog_name "prog.c" /* name for the program's uuencode file */ x/* encode_str[(char)val] is the uuencoded character of val */ xchar encode_str[256+1] = "`!\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz[\\]^_ !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz[\\]^_ !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz[\\]^_ !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz[\\]^_"; x/* global declarations */ xchar *program; /* our name */ xlong start_time; /* the startup time */ x/* forward declarations */ xvoid parse_args(); xvoid usage(); xfile *open_remark(); xfile *open_build(); xfile *open_program(); xfile *open_output(); xvoid output_entry(); xvoid output_remark(); xvoid output_author(); xvoid output_info(); xvoid output_build(); xvoid output_program(); xvoid output_end(); xint get_line(); xvoid output_till_dot(); xint col_len(); xvoid check_io(); xvoid uuencode(); xmain(argc, argv) x int argc; /* arg count */ x char **argv; /* the args */ x{ x file *remark=null; /* open remarks stream */ x file *build=null; /* open build file stream */ x file *prog=null; /* open program stream */ x file *output=null; /* open output stream */ x char *rname=null; /* file with remarks about the entry */ x char *bname=null; /* file containing how prog.c should be built */ x char *pname=null; /* the obfuscated program source file */ x char *oname=null; /* ioccc entry output file */ x struct tm *tm; /* startup time structure */ x /* x * check on the year x */ x start_time = time((long *)0); x tm = gmtime(&start_time); x if (tm->tm_year != rule_year-1900) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: warning: this program applies to %d, which may differ from %d\n\n", x argv[0], rule_year, 1900+tm->tm_year); x } x /* x * parse the command line args x */ x parse_args(argc, argv, &rname, &bname, &pname, &oname); x /* x * open/check the input and output files x * x * we open and truncate the output file first, in case it is the same x * as one of the input files. x */ x output = open_output(oname); x remark = open_remark(rname); x build = open_build(bname); x prog = open_program(pname); x if (output==null || remark==null || build==null || prog==null) { x exit(1); x } x /* x * output each section x */ x output_entry(output, oname); x output_remark(output, oname, remark, rname); x output_author(output, oname); x output_info(output, oname); x output_build(output, oname, build, bname); x output_program(output, oname, prog, pname); x output_end(output, oname); x /* x * flush the output x */ x if (fflush(output) == eof) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: flush error in %s: ", program, oname); x perror(""); x exit(2); x } x /* x * final words x */ x printf("\nyour entry can be found in %s. you should check this file\n", x oname); x printf("correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will\n"); x printf("correctly decode your build file and program.\n\n"); x printf("this program has been provided as a guide for submitters. in\n"); x printf("cases where it conflicts with the rules, the rules shall apply.\n"); x printf("it is your responsibility to ensure that your entry conforms to\n"); x printf("the current rules.\n\n"); x printf("email your entries to:\n"); x printf("\t%s\n", entry_addr1); x printf("\t%s\n\n", entry_addr2); x printf("please use the following subject when you email your entry:\n"); x printf("\tioccc entry\n\n"); x /* all done */ x exit(0); x} x/* x * parse_args - parse the command line args x * x * given the command line args, this function parses them and sets the x * required name flags. this function will return only if the command x * line syntax is correct. x */ xparse_args(argc, argv, rname, bname, pname, oname) x int argc; /* arg count */ x char **argv; /* the args */ x char **rname; /* file with remarks about the entry */ x char **bname; /* file containing how prog.c should be built */ x char **pname; /* the obfuscated program source file */ x char **oname; /* ioccc entry output file */ x{ x char *optarg; /* -flag option operand */ x int flagname; /* the name of the -flag */ x int i; x /* x * not everyone has getopt, so we must parse args by hand. x */ x program = argv[0]; x for (i=1; i < argc; ++i) { x /* determine the flagname */ x if (argv[i][0] != '-') { x usage(1); x /*notreached*/ x } x flagname = (int)argv[i][1]; x /* determine the flag's operand */ x if (flagname != '\0' && argv[i][2] != '\0') { x optarg = &argv[i][2]; x } else { x if (i+1 >= argc) { x usage(2); x /*notreached*/ x } else { x optarg = argv[++i]; x } x } x /* save the flag's operand in the correct global variable */ x switch (flagname) { x case 'r': x *rname = optarg; x break; x case 'b': x *bname = optarg; x break; x case 'p': x *pname = optarg; x break; x case 'o': x *oname = optarg; x break; x default: x usage(3); x /*notreached*/ x } x } x /* x * verify that we have all of the required flags x */ x if (*rname == null || *bname == null || *pname == null || *oname == null) { x usage(4); x /*notreached*/ x } x return; x} x/* x * usage - print a usage message and exit x * x * this function does not return. x */ xusage(exitval) x int exitval; /* exit with this value */ x{ x fprintf(stderr, x "usage: %s -r remarks -b build -p prog.c -o ioccc.entry\n\n", program); x fprintf(stderr, "\t-r remarks\tfile with remarks about the entry\n"); x fprintf(stderr, "\t-b build\tfile containing how prog.c should be built\n"); x fprintf(stderr, "\t-p prog.c\tthe obfuscated program source file\n"); x fprintf(stderr, "\t-o ioccc.entry\tioccc entry output file\n"); x exit(exitval); x} x/* x * open_remark - open/check the remark file x * x * the remark file should be indented by 4 spaces, and should not extend x * beyond column max_col. these are not requirements, so we only warn. x * x * this function returns null on i/o or format error. x */ xfile * xopen_remark(filename) x char *filename; x{ x file *stream; /* the opened file stream */ x char buf[bufsiz+1]; /* input buffer */ x int toolong=0; /* number of lines that are too long */ x int non_indent=0; /* number of lines not indented by 4 spaces */ x /* x * open the remark input file x */ x stream = fopen(filename, "r"); x if (stream == null) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot open remark file: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x return(null); x } x /* x * look at each line x */ x while (fgets(buf, bufsiz, stream) != null) { x /* count lines that do not start with 4 spaces */ x if (buf[0] != '\n' && strncmp(buf, " ", 4) != 0) { x ++non_indent; x } x /* count long lines */ x if (col_len(buf) > max_col) { x /* found a line that is too long */ x ++toolong; x } x } x /* watch for i/o errors */ x check_io(stream, filename, eof_ok); x /* note long lines if needed */ x if (toolong > 0) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: warning: %d line(s) from %s extend beyond the 80th column\n", x program, toolong, filename); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: this is ok, but it would be nice to avoid\n\n", x program); x } x /* note non-indented lines, if needed */ x if (non_indent > 0) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: warning: %d line(s) from %s are not indented by 4 spaces\n", x program, non_indent, filename); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: this is ok, but it would be nice to avoid\n\n", x program); x } x /* return the open file */ x rewind(stream); x return(stream); x} x/* x * open_build - open/check the build file x * x * the how to build file must not be longer than max_build_size bytes. x * x * this function returns null on i/o or size error. x */ xfile * xopen_build(filename) x char *filename; x{ x file *stream; /* the opened file stream */ x struct stat statbuf; /* the status of the open file */ x /* x * open the how to build input file x */ x stream = fopen(filename, "r"); x if (stream == null) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot open how to build file: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x return(null); x } x /* x * determine the size of the file x */ x if (fstat(fileno(stream), &statbuf) < 0) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot stat how to build file: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x return(null); x } x if (statbuf.st_size > max_build_size) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: fatal: the how to build file: %s, is %d bytes long\n", x program, filename, statbuf.st_size); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: it may not be longer than %d bytes\n", x program, max_build_size); x return(null); x } x /* return the open file */ x return(stream); x} x/* x * open_program - open/check the program source file x * x * the program source file must be <= 3217 bytes. the number of x * non-whitespace and }{; chars not followed by whitespace must x * be <= 1536 bytes. x * x * this function returns null on i/o or size error. x */ xfile * xopen_program(filename) x char *filename; x{ x file *stream; /* the opened file stream */ x struct stat statbuf; /* the status of the open file */ x int count; /* special count size */ x int c; /* the character read */ x /* x * open the program source input file x */ x stream = fopen(filename, "r"); x if (stream == null) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot open program source file: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x exit(7); x } x /* x * determine the size of the file x */ x if (fstat(fileno(stream), &statbuf) < 0) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot stat program source file: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x return(null); x } x if (statbuf.st_size > max_program_size) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: fatal: the program source file: %s, is %d bytes long\n", x program, filename, statbuf.st_size); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: it may not be longer than %d bytes\n", x program, max_program_size); x return(null); x } x /* x * count the non-whitespace, non {}; followed by whitespace chars x */ x count = 0; x c = 0; x while ((c=fgetc(stream)) != eof) { x /* look at non-whitespace */ x if (!isascii(c) || !isspace(c)) { x switch (c) { x case '{': /* count if not followed by eof or whitespace */ x case '}': x case ';': x /* peek at next char */ x c = fgetc(stream); x if (c != eof && isascii(c) && !isspace(c)) { x /* not followed by whitespace or eof, count it */ x ungetc(c, stream); x ++count; x } x break; x default: x ++count; x break; x } x } x } x /* watch for i/o errors */ x check_io(stream, filename, eof_ok); x /* look at the special size */ x if (count > max_program_size2) { x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: fatal: the number of bytes that are non-whitespace, and\n", x program); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: that are not '{', '}', ';' followed by whitespace\n", x program); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: or eof must be <= %d bytes\n", x program, max_program_size2); x fprintf(stderr, x "%s: in %s, %d bytes were found\n", x program, filename, count); x return(null); x } x /* return the open file */ x rewind(stream); x return(stream); x} x/* x * open_output - open/check the entry output file x * x * this function returns null on open error. x */ xfile * xopen_output(filename) x char *filename; x{ x file *stream; /* the opened file stream */ x /* x * open the ioccc entry output file x */ x stream = fopen(filename, "w"); x if (stream == null) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: cannot open ioccc entry file for output: %s: ", x program, filename); x perror(""); x exit(8); x } x /* return the open file */ x return(stream); x} x/* x * output_entry - output the ---entry--- section x * x * read the needed information form stdin, and write the entry section. x */ xoutput_entry(output, oname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x{ x char title[max_title_len+1+1]; /* the entry's title */ x char buf[max_col+1+1]; /* i/o buffer */ x int entry=0; /* entry number */ x int ret; /* fields processed by fscanf */ x int ok_line=0; /* 0 => the line is not ok */ x char skip; /* input to skip */ x file *date_pipe; /* pipe to a date command */ x time_t epoch_sec; /* seconds since the epoch */ x char *p; x /* x * write the start of the section x */ x fprintf(output, "---entry---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * write the rule year x */ x fprintf(output, "rule:\t%d\n", rule_year); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* determine if this is a fix */ x printf("is this a fix, update or resubmittion to a "); x printf("previous entry (enter y or n)? "); x while (get_line(buf, 1+1, 0) <= 0 || !(buf[0]=='y' || buf[0]=='n')) { x printf("\nplease answer y or n: "); x } x if (buf[0] == 'y') { x fprintf(output, "fix:\ty\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x printf("\nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give\n"); x printf("are the same of as the entry you are replacing\n"); x } else { x fprintf(output, "fix:\tn\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x /* x * write the title x */ x printf("\nyour title must match expression be a [a-za-z0-9_=] character\n"); x printf("followed by 0 to %d more [a-za-z0-9_=+-] characters.\n\n", x max_title_len-1); x printf("it is suggested, but not required, that the title should\n"); x printf("incorporate your username; in the\n"); x printf("case of multiple authors, consider using parts of the usernames\n"); x printf("of the authors.\n\n"); x printf("enter your title: "); x do { x /* prompt and read a line */ x if ((ok_line = get_line(title, max_title_len+1, max_col-9)) <= 0) { x printf("\ntitle is too long, please re-enter: "); x continue; x } x /* verify the pattern, not everyone has regexp, so do it by hand */ x if (!isascii((int)title[0]) || x !(isalnum((int)title[0]) || title[0] == '_' || title[0] == '=')) { x printf("\ninvalid first character in the title\n\n"); x printf("enter your title: "); x ok_line = 0; x } else { x for (p=(&title[1]); *p != '\0' && *p != '\n'; ++p) { x if (!isascii((int)*p) || x !(isalnum((int)*p) || x *p == '_' || *p == '=' || *p == '+' || *p == '-')) { x printf("\ninvalid character in the title\n\n"); x printf("enter your title: "); x ok_line = 0; x } x } x } x } while (ok_line <= 0); x fprintf(output, "title:\t%s", title); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * write the entry number x */ x printf("\neach person may submit up to %d entries per year.\n\n", x max_entry); x printf("enter an entry number from 0 to %d inclusive: ", max_entry-1); x do { x /* get a valid input line */ x fflush(stdout); x ret = fscanf(stdin, "%d[\n]", &entry); x check_io(stdin, "stdin", eof_not_ok); x /* skip over input until newline is found */ x do { x skip = fgetc(stdin); x check_io(stdin, "stdin", eof_not_ok); x if (skip != '\n') { x /* bad text in input, invalidate entry number */ x entry = -1; x } x } while (skip != '\n'); x /* check if we have a number, and if it is in range */ x if (ret != 1 || entry < 0 || entry > max_entry-1) { x printf( x "\nthe entry number must be between 0 and %d inclusive\n\n", x max_entry-1); x printf("enter the entry number: "); x } x } while (ret != 1 || entry < 0 || entry > max_entry-1); x fprintf(output, "entry:\t%d\n", entry); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * write the submission date x */ x /* returns a newline */ x epoch_sec = time(null); x fprintf(output, "date:\t%s", asctime(gmtime(&epoch_sec))); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * write the os/machine host information x */ x printf( x "\nenter the machine(s) and os(s) under which your entry was tested.\n"); x output_till_dot(output, oname, "host:"); x} x/* x * output_remark - output the ---remark--- section x * x * read the needed information form stdin, and write the entry section. x */ xoutput_remark(output, oname, remark, rname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x file *remark; /* stream to the file containing remark text */ x char *rname; /* name of the remark file */ x{ x char buf[bufsiz+1]; /* input/output buffer */ x /* x * write the start of the section x */ x fprintf(output, "---remark---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * copy the remark file to the section x */ x while (fgets(buf, bufsiz, remark) != null) { x fputs(buf, output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x check_io(remark, rname, eof_ok); x /* be sure that the remark section ends with a newline */ x if (buf[strlen(buf)-1] != '\n') { x fputc('\n', output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x} x/* x * output_author - output the ---author--- section x * x * read the needed information from stdin, and write the author section. x * if multiple authors exist, multiple author sections will be written. x */ xoutput_author(output, oname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x{ x char buf[max_col+1+1]; /* i/o buffer */ x int more_auths; /* true => more authors to note */ x int auth_cnt=0; /* number of authors processed */ x /* x * prompt the user for the author section x */ x printf("\nenter information about each author. if your entry is after\n"); x printf("%s and before the contest deadline, the judges\n", start_date); x printf("will attempt to email back a confirmation to the first author\n"); x /* x * place author information for each author in an individual section x */ x do { x /* write the start of the section */ x fprintf(output, "---author---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* write the author */ x printf("\nauthor #%d name: ", ++auth_cnt); x while (get_line(buf, max_col+1, max_col-9) <= 0) { x printf("\nname too long, please re-enter: "); x } x fprintf(output, "name:\t%s", buf); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* write the organization */ x printf("\nenter the school/company/organization of author #%d\n", x auth_cnt); x printf("\nauthor #%d org: ", auth_cnt); x while (get_line(buf, max_col+1, max_col-9) <= 0) { x printf("\nline too long, please re-enter: "); x } x fprintf(output, "org:\t%s", buf); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* write the address */ x printf( x "\nenter the postal address for author #%d. be sure to include\n", x auth_cnt); x printf("your country and do not include your name.\n"); x output_till_dot(output, oname, "addr:"); x /* write the email address */ x printf( x "\nenter the email address for author #%d. use an address from\n", x auth_cnt); x printf( x "a registered domain or well known site. if you give several\n"); x printf("forms, list them one per line.\n"); x output_till_dot(output, oname, "email:"); x /* write the anonymous status */ x printf("\nshould author #%d remain anonymous (enter y or n)? ", x auth_cnt); x while (get_line(buf, 1+1, 0) <= 0 || !(buf[0]=='y' || buf[0]=='n')) { x printf("\nplease answer y or n: "); x } x fprintf(output, "anon:\t%s", buf); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* determine if there is another author */ x printf("\nis there another author (enter y or n)? "); x while (get_line(buf, 1+1, 0) <= 0 || !(buf[0]=='y' || buf[0]=='n')) { x printf("\nplease answer y or n: "); x } x if (buf[0] == 'y') { x more_auths = true; x } else { x more_auths = false; x } x } while (more_auths == true); x return; x} x/* x * output_info - output the ---info--- section(s) x * x * read the needed information from stdin, and write the info section. x * if multiple info files exist, multiple info sections will be written. x */ xoutput_info(output, oname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x{ x char infoname[max_file_len+1]; /* filename buffer */ x char yorn[1+1]; /* y or n answer */ x char *uuname; /* name to uuencode as */ x file *infile; /* info file stream */ x /* x * prompt the user for info information x */ x printf("\ninfo files should be used only to supplement your entry.\n"); x printf("for example, info files may provide sample input or detailed\n"); x printf("information about your entry. because they are supplemental,\n"); x printf("the entry should not require them to exist.\n\n"); x /* x * while there is another info file to save, uuencode it x */ x printf("do you have a info file to include (enter y or n)? "); x while (get_line(yorn, 1+1, 0) <= 0 || !(yorn[0]=='y' || yorn[0]=='n')) { x printf("\nplease answer y or n: "); x } x while (yorn[0] == 'y') { x /* read the filename */ x printf("\nenter the info filename: "); x while (get_line(infoname, max_file_len+1, 0) <= 0) { x printf("\ninfo filename too long, please re-enter: "); x } x /* compute the basename of the info filename */ x /* remove the trailing newline */ x uuname = &infoname[strlen(infoname)-1]; x *uuname = '\0'; x /* avoid rindex/shrrchr compat issues, do it by hand */ x for (--uuname; uuname > infoname; --uuname) { x if (*uuname == '/') { x ++uuname; x break; x } x } x /* attempt to open the info file */ x infile = fopen(infoname, "r"); x if (infile == null) { x fprintf(stderr, "\n%s: cannot open info file: %s: ", x program, infoname); x perror(""); x continue; x } x /* x * write the start of the section x */ x fprintf(output, "---info---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* uuencode the info file */ x uuencode(output, oname, infile, infoname, uuinfo_mode, uuname); x printf("\ndo you have another info file to include (enter y or n)? "); x while (get_line(yorn, 1+1, 0) <= 0 || !(yorn[0]=='y' || yorn[0]=='n')) { x printf("\nplease answer y or n: "); x } x }; x return; x} x/* x * output_build - output the ---build--- section x * x * read the needed information from stdin, and write the build section. x */ xoutput_build(output, oname, build, bname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x file *build; /* open build file stream */ x char *bname; /* name of the build file */ x{ x /* x * write the start of the section x */ x fprintf(output, "---build---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * uuencode the program file x */ x uuencode(output, oname, build, bname, uubuild_mode, uubuild_name); x return; x} x/* x * output_program - output the ---program--- section x * x * read the needed information form stdin, and write the program section. x */ xoutput_program(output, oname, prog, pname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x file *prog; /* open program stream */ x char *pname; /* name of program file */ x{ x /* x * write the start of the section x */ x fprintf(output, "---program---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * uuencode the program file x */ x uuencode(output, oname, prog, pname, uuprog_mode, uuprog_name); x return; x} x/* x * output_end - output the ---end--- section x * x * read the needed information form stdin, and write the 'end section'. x */ xoutput_end(output, oname) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x{ x /* x * write the final section terminator x */ x fprintf(output, "---end---\n"); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x return; x} x/* x * get_line - get an answer from stdin x * x * this function will flush stdout, in case a prompt is pending, and x * read in the answer. x * x * this function returns 0 if the line is too long, of the length of the x * line (including the newline) of the line was ok. this function does x * not return if error or eof. x */ xget_line(buf, siz, maxcol) x char *buf; /* input buffer */ x int siz; /* length of input, including the newline */ x int maxcol; /* max col allowed, 0 => disable check */ x{ x int length; /* the length of the input line */ x /* flush terminal output */ x fflush(stdout); x /* read the line */ x if (fgets(buf, siz+1, stdin) == null) { x /* report the problem */ x check_io(stdin, "stdin", eof_not_ok); x } x /* look for the newline */ x length = strlen(buf); x if (buf[length-1] != '\n') { x int eatchar; /* the char being eaten */ x /* no newline found, line must be too long, eat the rest of the line */ x do { x eatchar = fgetc(stdin); x } while (eatchar != eof && eatchar != '\n'); x check_io(stdin, "stdin", eof_not_ok); x /* report the situation */ x return 0; x } x /* watch for long lines, if needed */ x if (maxcol > 0 && (length > maxcol || col_len(buf) > maxcol)) { x /* report the situation */ x return 0; x } x /* return length */ x return length; x} x/* x * output_till_dot - output a set of lines until '.' by itself is read x * x * this routine will read a set of lines until (but not including) x * a single line with '.' is read. the format of the output is: x * x * leader:\tfirst line x * \tnext line x * \tnext line x * ... x * x * this routine will not return if i/o error or eof. x */ xoutput_till_dot(output, oname, leader) x file *output; /* entry's output file stream */ x char *oname; /* name of the output file */ x char *leader; /* the lead text for the first line */ x{ x char buf[bufsiz+1]; /* input buffer */ x int count; /* lines read */ x int done=false; /* true => finished reading input */ x /* instruct the user on how to input */ x printf("\nto end input, enter a line with a single period.\n"); x /* read lines until '.' or eof */ x count = 0; x while (!done) { x /* issue the prompt */ x printf("%s\t", (count>0) ? "" : leader); x fflush(stdout); x /* get the line */ x if (get_line(buf, bufsiz, max_col-9) <= 0) { x printf("\nline too long, please re-enter:\n\t"); x continue; x } x /* note if '.' was read */ x if (strcmp(buf, ".\n") == 0) { x done = true; x } x /* write line if we read something */ x if (!done) { x fprintf(output, "%s\t%s", (count++>0) ? "" : leader, buf); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x } x /* if no lines read, at least output something */ x if (count <= 0) { x fprintf(output, "%s\t.\n", leader); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x return; x} x/* x * col_len - determine the highest that a string would reach x * x * given a string, this routine returns that a string would reach x * if the string were printed at column 1. tab stops are assumed x * to start at 9, 17, 25, 33, ... x */ xcol_len(string) x char *string; /* the string to examine */ x{ x int col; /* current column */ x char *p; /* current char */ x /* scan the string */ x for (col=0, p=string; *p != '\0' && *p != '\n'; ++p) { x /* note the column shift */ x col = (*p=='\t') ? 1+((col+8)/8*8) : col+1; x } x if (*p == '\n') { x --col; x } x /* return the highest column */ x return col; x} x/* x * check_io - check for eof or i/o error on a stream x * x * does not return if eof or i/o error. x */ xcheck_io(stream, name, eof_ok) x file *stream; /* the stream to check */ x char *name; /* the name of this stream */ x int eof_ok; /* eof_ok or eof_not_ok */ x{ x /* test for i/o error */ x if (ferror(stream)) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: error on %s: ", program, name); x perror(""); x exit(1); x /* test for eof */ x } else if (eof_ok == eof_not_ok && feof(stream)) { x fprintf(stderr, "%s: eof on %s\n", program, name); x exit(1); x } x return; x} x/* x * uuencode - uuencode a file x * x * perform the uuencoding process identical to the process performed x * by the uuencode(1) utility. x * x * this routine implements the algorithm described in the uuencode(5) x * 4.3bsd reno man page. x */ xuuencode(output, oname, infile, iname, umode, uname) x file *output; /* output file stream */ x char *oname; /* output filename */ x file *infile; /* input file stream */ x char *iname; /* input filename */ x int umode; /* the mode to put on the uuencode file */ x char *uname; /* name to put on the uuencode file */ x{ x char buf[uuencode_len+1]; /* the uuencode buffer */ x int read_len; /* actual number of chars read */ x int val; /* 6 bit chunk from buf */ x char filler='\0'; /* filler uuencode pad text */ x char *p; x /* x * output the initial uuencode header x */ x fprintf(output, "begin %o %s\n", umode, uname); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * clear out the input buffer x */ x for (p=buf; p < &buf[sizeof(buf)/sizeof(buf[0])]; ++p) { x *p = '\0'; x } x /* x * we will process uuencode_len chars at a time, forming x * a single output line each time. x */ x while ((read_len=fread(buf,sizeof(buf[0]),uuencode_len,infile)) > 0) { x /* x * the first character is the length character x */ x fputc(uuencode(read_len), output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * we will convert 24 bits at a time. thus we will convert x * 3 sets of 8 bits into 4 sets of uuencoded 6 bits. x */ x for (p=buf; read_len>0; read_len-=3, p+=3) { x /* bits 0 to 5 */ x val = (p[0]>>2)&0x3f; x fputc(uuencode(val), output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* bits 6 to 11 */ x val = ((p[0]<<4)&0x30) | ((p[1]>>4)&0x0f); x fputc(uuencode(val), output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* bits 12 to 17 */ x val = ((p[1]<<2)&0x3c) | ((p[2]>>6)&0x03); x fputc(uuencode(val), output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* bits 18 to 23 */ x val = p[2]&0x3f; x fputc(uuencode(val), output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x } x /* end of uuencode_len line */ x fputc('\n', output); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x /* x * clear out the input buffer (don't depend on bzero() or memset()) x */ x for (p=buf; p < &buf[sizeof(buf)/sizeof(buf[0])]; ++p) { x *p = '\0'; x } x } x /* check the last read on the input file */ x check_io(infile, iname, eof_ok); x /* write end of uuencode file */ x fprintf(output, "%c\nend\n", uuencode(filler)); x check_io(output, oname, eof_not_ok); x} chmod 0444 mkentry.c || echo "restore of mkentry.c failed" set `wc -c mkentry.c`;wc_c=$1 if test "$wc_c" != "34482"; then echo original size 34482, current size $wc_c # ============= obfuscate.info ============== echo "x - extracting obfuscate.info (text)" sed 's/^x//' << 'shar_eof' > obfuscate.info && x1993 obfuscated contest information xcopyright (c) landon curt noll & larry bassel, 1993. xall rights reserved. permission for personal, education or non-profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered. all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel. xthe international obfuscated c code contest (ioccc), in the sprit of xco-operation, is willing mention other programming contents, as space xhow to have your contest included in this file: x if you wish the ioccc judges to include your contest in this file, x send a request to: x judges@toad.com x we request that contest descriptions be limited to 50 lines and to x not exceed 2500 bytes. we typically request that your contest x include a current description of the ioccc. x in order to be included in this file for given year, we must x receive a current description no earlier than jan 1 00:00:00 utc and x no later than feb 15 00:00:00 utc. agreement to publish your x contest must also be obtained prior to feb 15. annual contests x that fail to submit a new entry will be dropped from this file. xofficial disclaimer: (pardon the officialese) x the contents noted below, other than the ioccc, are not affiliated x with the ioccc, nor are they endorsed by the ioccc. we reserve the x right to refuse to print information about a given contest. x the information below was provided by the particular contest x organizer(s) and printed by permission. please contact the x contest organizer(s) directly regarding their contents. xwith that official notice given, we present for your enjoyment, the following xinformation about contents: x--------------------------------------------------------------------------- x 10th international obfuscated c contest x "the original obfuscated contest" x obfuscate: tr.v. -cated, -cating, -cates. 1. a. to render obscure. x b. to darken. 2. to confuse: their emotions obfuscated x their judgment. [llat. obfuscare, to darken : ob(intensive) + x lat. fuscare, to darken < fuscus, dark.] -obfuscation n. x obfuscatory adj. x goals of the contest: x * to write the most obscure/obfuscated c program under the rules below. x * to show the importance of programming style, in an ironic way. x * to stress c compilers with unusual code. x * to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language. x * to provide a safe forum for poor c code. :-) x the ioccc is the grandfather of usenet programming contests. since x 1984, this contest demonstrated that a program that simply works x correctly is not sufficient. the ioccc has also done much to add x the arcane word 'obfuscated' back into the english language. x (see "the new hacker's dictionary" by eric raymond) x you are strongly encouraged to read the new contest rules before x sending any entries. the rules, and sometimes the contest email x address itself, change over time. a valid entry one year may x be rejected in a later year due to changes in the rules. the typical x start date for contests is in early march. contest rules are normally not x finalized and posted until the beginning of the contest. the typical x closing date for contests are in early may. x the rules and the guidelines may (and often do) change from year to x year. you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries. to obtain them, send email to the address x above and use the subject 'send rules'. x one may obtain winners of previous contests (1984 to date), via ftp from: x host: ftp.uu.net (192.48.96.9) x user: anonymous x pass: yourname@yourhost x dir: ~/pub/ioccc x as a last resort, previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address. please use the subject 'send year winners', x where year is a single 4 digit year, a year range, or 'all'. x--------------------------------------------------------------------------- x 0th international obfuscated perl contest x by: landon noll & larry wall x this content is being planned. someday when landon & larry are not too x busy, they will actually get around to posting the first set of rules! x landon says: "yes, i know that i said we would have a contest in 1993, x but other existing projects got in the way. hopefully x something will be developed after nov 1993." x--------------------------------------------------------------------------- x 2nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan monsarrat (jgm@cs.brown.edu) x alena lacova (alena@nikhef.nl) x a contest of programming skills and knowledge, exclusively for the x postscript programming language. its purpose: x * to spread knowledge of postscript and its details. x * to applaud those with the best tricks. x * to prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators at x their own game by writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript x programs ever. x winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their x program entry posted as a winner to programmers world-wide. x the 1993 contest rules and results are available by ftp as x ``wilma.cs.brown.edu:pub/postscript/obfuscated*.shar'', or individually x in the obfuscated directory. the judges will post the 1994 rules x in november to comp.lang.postscript on usenet, and other places. x send questions to jgm@cs.brown.edu. x categories include: best obfuscated postscript, best artwork, x most compact, best interactive program, most useful, and x anything so unusual and creative that it deserves an award. x the judges will choose the winners of each category. x alena lacova is a system administrator at nikhef (institute for high x energy and nuclear physics) in the netherlands. she is the author of x the postscript chaos programs, which draw julia sets, mandelbrot sets x and other kinds of fractal functions. x jonathan monsarrat is a graduate student from mit and brown university x in the u.s.a. he is the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup x comp.lang.postscript and the author of the postscript zone and lametex. x . chmod 0444 obfuscate.info || echo "restore of obfuscate.info failed" set `wc -c obfuscate.info`;wc_c=$1 if test "$wc_c" != "6418"; then echo original size 6418, current size $wc_c exit 0 sunnyvale residents: vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat 1. 
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 <i might have a need in the future to display rotated text. i noticed the <"xvertext" package on the net. it looks very good, but it has one slight <problem. the api to it assumes you have a font name, not an already loaded <font. it shouldn't be too difficult to split up the function into two <interface routines, one with a font name, and one with an xfontstruct, but <i thought i would ask the author (alan richardson <(mppa3@uk.ac.sussex.syma)) first in case he was planning this already. <unfortunately, his email address bounced. does alan r. or the current <maintainer of "xvertext" see this? the e-mail address you mentioned above is for use with the u.k. as you know, the brits do everything backwards :-) so, the real address from the states is: mppa3@syma.sussex.ac.uk give it a try. harvard\ ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!ftms!brown or uu2.psi.com!ftms!brown rutgers/ internet: brown@wi.extrel.com or ftms!brown%astroatc.uucp@cs.wisc.edu 
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 i am about to write an application in x/motif that will require the embedding of a pseudo tty. so, before i re-invent the wheel, has anyone written/gotten a motif widget that does the job ? otherwise, i would appreciate any pointers to make such a beast. my environment is x11r4/motif 1.1 and x11r5/motif 1.2 (if this helps). thanks in advance. arthur lim email : arthur@mailhost.scs.com.sg 
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 you are right in supposing that the problem is with the xmncolormap (xtncolormap for truly literate beings) not being set. what you want to do is start your application with your new colormap. this can be a chicken and egg sort of problem, however. if you look at the xt faq there is an example that should show how it can be done. if not, let me know and maybe i can improve the example. --pete pete ware ware@cis.ohio-state.edu cis dept, ohio state university w/ (614) 292-7318 228 bolz hall, 2036 neil ave. h/ (614) 538-0965 columbus, oh 43210 
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 does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings? i haven't found them in any librarys not xm, xt, nor x11, and i need them to install a tool. any hints greatly appreciated! please reply via e-mail. thanks in advance! christian wilk i've seen things you people wouldn't believe. technical university of munich attack ships on fire off the shoulder of orion. munich, germany i watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the tannhauser gate. all those moments will be lost wilk@informatik.tu-muenchen.de in time - like tears in rain. time to die. -- roy batty 
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 |> hello, |> does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings? |> i haven't found them in any librarys not xm, xt, nor x11, and i need |> them to install a tool. |> any hints greatly appreciated! please reply via e-mail. they aren't functions, they are character arrays. the standard strings are either defined as string constants or character pointers into xtshellstrings and xtstrings determined by xtstringdefines. your libraries were compiled with this defined and your application with it undefined so simply recompile one or the other. it is probably worth adding -dxtstringdefines to your cflags. michael salmon #include <standard.disclaimer> #include <witty.saying> #include <fancy.pseudo.graphics> ericsson telecom ab 
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 in my opinion, a programming degree is still worth having. yes, but a cs degree is *not* a programming degree. does anybody know of a computing course where *programming* is taught ? computer science is a branch of maths (or the course i did was). i've also done a software engineering course - much more practical and likely to be the sort of thing an employer really wants, rather than what they think they want, but also did not teach programming. the ability to program was an entry requirement. at robert gordon university, programming was the main (most time-consuming) start of the course. the first two years consisted of five subjects: software engineering (pascal/c/unix), computer engineering (6502/6809/68000 assembler), computer theory (lisp/prolog), mathematics/statistics and communication skills (how to pass interviews/intelligence tests and group discussions e.g. how to survive a helicopter crash in the north sea). the third year (industrial placement) was spent working for a computer company for a year. the company could be anywhere in europe (there was a special travel allowance scheme to cover the visiting costs of professors). the fourth year included operating systems(c/modula-2), software engineering (c/8086 assembler), real time laboratory (c/68000 assembler) and computing theory (lisp). there were also group projects in 2nd and 4th years, where students worked in teams to select their own project or decide to work for an outside company (the only disadvantage being that specifications would change suddenly). in the first four years, there was a 50%:50% weighting between courseworks and exams for most subjects. however in the honours year, this was reduced to a 30%:70% split between an individual project and final exams (no coursework assessment) - are all computer science courses like this? btw - we started off with 22 students in our first year and were left with 8 by honours year. also, every course is tutored separately. not easy trying to sleep when you are in 8 student class :-). | michael s. a. robb | tel: +44 31 554 9424 | "..the problem with bolt-on | software engineer | fax: +44 31 554 0649 | software is making sure the | spider systems limited | e-mail: | bolts are the right size.." | edinburgh, eh6 5ng | michaelr@spider.co.uk | - anonymous 
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 window placement on screen i would like to configure my system (a hp unix) to avoid that any corner of a given window is displayed outside of the visible screen. the whole window should be visible and it should be impossible to move any window outside the visible aerea. 1. can this be done by configuring the window manager's resources 2. can this be done on applikation level 3. a hardcoded solution is possible, but is it possible to have a upper limit of a given window size thank you for information and help 
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 archive-name: x-faq/part5 last-modified: 1993/04/04 float resources are not portable; the size of the value may be larger than the size of an xtpointer. try using a pointer to a float instead; the xaw scrollbar float resources are handled in this way. yes. this is the "unofficial" fix-19 for the x11r4 destroy.c: *** destroy.c.1.37 thu jul 11 15:41:25 1991 --- lib/xt/destroy.c thu jul 11 15:42:23 1991 *** 1,4 **** --- 1,5 ---- /* $xconsortium: destroy.c,v 1.37 90/09/28 10:21:32 swick exp $ */ + /* plus unofficial patches in revisions 1.40 and 1.41 */ copyright 1987, 1988 by digital equipment corporation, maynard, massachusetts, *** 221,239 **** int i = 0; ! destroyrec* dr = app->destroy_list; while (i < app->destroy_count) { if (dr->dispatch_level >= dispatch_level) { widget w = dr->widget; if (--app->destroy_count) bcopy( (char*)(dr+1), (char*)dr, ! app->destroy_count*sizeof(destroyrec) xtphase2destroy(w); else { i++; - dr++; --- 222,245 ---- int i = 0; ! destroyrec* dr; while (i < app->destroy_count) { + /* xtphase2destroy can result in calls to xtdestroywidget, + * and these could cause app->destroy_list to be reallocated. + dr = app->destroy_list + i; if (dr->dispatch_level >= dispatch_level) { widget w = dr->widget; if (--app->destroy_count) bcopy( (char*)(dr+1), (char*)dr, ! (app->destroy_count - i) * sizeof(destroyrec) xtphase2destroy(w); else { i++; [from donna converse, converse@expo.lcs.mit.edu] although some books demonstrate that the current implementation of xt happens to call callback procedures in the order in which they are registered, the specification does not guarantee such a sequence, and supplemental authoritative documents (i.e. the asente/swick volume) do say that the order is undefined. because the callback list can be manipulated by both the widget and the application, xt cannot guarantee the order of execution. in general, the callback procedures should be thought of as operating independently of one another and should not depend on side-effects of other callbacks operating; if a seqence is needed, then the single callback to be registered can explicitly call other functions necessary. [4/92; thanks to converse@expo.lcs.mit.edu] xtdestroywidget() operates in two passes, in order to avoid leaving dangling data structures; the function-call marks the widget, which is not actually destroyed until your program returns to its event-loop. it is possible to have code which looks like this trivial callback, which has a clear flow of control. the calls to askuser() block until answer is set to one of the valid values. if it is not a "yes" answer, the code drops out of the callback and back to an event-processing loop: void quit(widget w, xtpointer client, xtpointer call) int answer; answer = askuser(w, "really quit?"); if (ret_yes == answer) answer = askuser(w, "are you really positive?"); if (ret_yes == answer) exit(0); a more realistic example might ask whether to create a file or whether to overwrite it. this is accomplished by entering a second event-processing loop and waiting until the user answers the question; the answer is returned to the calling function. that function askuser() looks something like this, where the motif can be replaced with widget-set-specific code to create some sort of dialog-box displaying the question string and buttons for "ok", "cancel" and "help" or equivalents: int askuser(w, string) widget w; char *string; int answer=ret_none; /* some not-used marker */ widget dialog; /* could cache&carry, but ...*/ arg args[3]; int n = 0; xtappcontext context; n=0; xtsetarg(args[n], xmnmessagestring, xmstringcreateltor(string, xmstring_default_charset)); n++; xtsetarg(args[n], xmndialogstyle, xmdialog_application_modal); n++; dialog = xmcreatequestiondialog(xtparent(w), string, args, n); xtaddcallback(dialog, xmnokcallback, response, &answer); xtaddcallback(dialog, xmncancelcallback, response, &answer); xtaddcallback(dialog, xmnhelpcallback, response, &answer); xtmanagechild(dialog); context = xtwidgettoapplicationcontext (w); while (answer == ret_none || xtapppending(context)) { xtappprocessevent (context, xtimall); xtdestroywidget(dialog); /* blow away the dialog box and shell */ return answer; the dialog supports three buttons, which are set to call the same function when tickled by the user. the variable answer is set when the user finally selects one of those choices: void response(w, client, call) widget w; xtpointer client; xtpointer call; int *answer = (int *) client; xmanycallbackstruct *reason = (xmanycallbackstruct *) call; switch (reason->reason) { case xmcr_ok: *answer = ret_yes; /* some #define value */ break; case xmcr_cancel: *answer = ret_no; break; case xmcr_help: *answer = ret_help; break; default: return; and the code unwraps back to the point at which an answer was needed and continues from there. [thanks to dan heller (argv@sun.com); further code is in dan's r3/contrib widgetwrap library. 2/91] i have a widget id and need to know what the name of that widget is. users of r4 and later are best off using the xtname() function, which will work on both widgets and non-widget objects. if you are still using r3, you can use this simple bit of code to do what you want. note that it depends on the widget's internal data structures and is not necessarily portable to future versions of xt, including r4. #include <x11/corep.h> #include <x11/xresource.h> string xtname (widget) widget widget; /* will work with non-widget objects */ return xrmnametostring(widget->core.xrm_name); [7/90; modified with suggestion by larry rogers (larry@boris.webo.dg.com) 9/91] i'm doing this in order to get a window into which i can do xlib graphics within my xt-based program: canvas = xtcreatemanagedwidget ( ...,widgetclass,...) /* drawing area */ window = xtwindow(canvas); /* get the window associated with the widget */ xdrawline (...,window,...); /* produces error */ the window associated with the widget is created as a part of the realization of the widget. using a window id of null ("no window") could create the error that you describe. it is necessary to call xtrealizewidget() before attempting to use the window associated with a widget. note that the window will be created after the xtrealizewidget() call, but that the server may not have actually mapped it yet, so you should also wait for an expose event on the window before drawing into it. the badmatch error can occur if the specified rectangle goes off the edge of the screen. if you don't want to catch the error and deal with it, you can take the following steps to avoid the error: 1) make a pixmap the same size as the rectangle you want to capture. 2) clear the pixmap to background using xfillrectangle. 3) use xcopyarea to copy the window to the pixmap. 4) if you get a noexpose event, the copy was clean. use xgetimage to grab the image from the pixmap. 5) if you get one or more graphicsexpose events, the copy wasn't clean, and the x/y/width/height members of the graphicsexpose event structures tell you the parts of the pixmap which aren't good. 6) get rid of the pixmap; it probably takes a lot of memory. [10/92; thanks to oliver jones (oj@pictel.com)] a number of programs offer x modes but otherwise run in a straight character-only mode. the easiest way for an application to determine that it is running on an x display is to attempt to open a connection to the x server: display = xopendisplay(display_name); if (display) { do x stuff } { do curses or something else } where display_name is either the string specified on the command-line following -display, by convention, or otherwise is (char*)null [in which case xopendisplay uses the value of $display, if set]. this is superior to simply checking for the existence a -display command-line argument or checking for $display set in the environment, neither of which is adequate. [5/91] is it necessary to call xdefinecursor() for every window in my application? the easiest thing to do is to create a single inputonly window that is as large as the largest possible screen; make it a child of your toplevel window and it will be clipped to that window, so it won't affect any other application. (it needs to be as big as the largest possible screen in case the user enlarges the window while it is busy or moves elsewhere within a virtual desktop.) substitute "toplevel" with your top-most widget here (similar code should work for xlib-only applications; just use your top window): unsigned long valuemask; xsetwindowattributes attributes; /* ignore device events while the busy cursor is displayed. */ valuemask = cwdontpropagate | cwcursor; attributes.do_not_propagate_mask = (keypressmask | keyreleasemask | buttonpressmask | buttonreleasemask | pointermotionmask); attributes.cursor = xcreatefontcursor(xtdisplay(toplevel), xc_watch); /* the window will be as big as the display screen, and clipped by its own parent window, so we never have to worry about resizing */ xcreatewindow(xtdisplay(toplevel), xtwindow(toplevel), 0, 0, 65535, 65535, (unsigned int) 0, 0, inputonly, copyfromparent, valuemask, &attributes); where the maximum size above could be replaced by the real size of the screen, particularly to avoid servers which have problems with windows larger than when you want to use this busy cursor, map and raise this window; to go back to normal, unmap it. this will automatically keep you from getting extra mouse events; depending on precisely how the window manager works, it may or may not have a similar effect on keystrokes as well. in addition, note also that most of the xaw widgets support an xtncursor resource which can be temporarily reset, should you merely wish to change the cursor without blocking pointer events. [thanks to andrew wason (aw@cellar.bae.bellcore.com), dan heller (argv@sun.com), and mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu; 11/90,5/91] an x-based application which spawns off other unix processes which continue to run after it is closed typically does not vanish until all of its children are terminated; the children inherit from the parent the open x connection to the display. what you need to do is fork; then, immediately, in the child process, close (connectionnumber(xtdisplay(widget))); to close the file-descriptor in the display information. after this do your exec. you will then be able to exit the parent. alternatively, before exec'ing make this call, which causes the file descriptor to be closed on exec. (void) fcntl(connectionnumber(xdisplay), f_setfd, 1); [thanks to janet anstett (anstettj@tramp.colorado.edu), gordon freedman (gjf00@duts.ccc.amdahl.com); 2/91. greg holmberg (holmberg@frame.com), 3/93.] no. xlib and xt have no mutual exclusion for protecting critical sections. if your signal handler makes such a call at the wrong time (which might be while the function you are calling is already executing), it can leave the library in an inconsistent state. note that the ansi c standard points out that behavior of a signal handler is undefined if the signal handler calls any function other than signal() itself, so this is not a problem specific to xlib and xt; the posix specification mentions other functions which may be called safely but it may not be assumed that these functions are called by xlib or xt functions. you can work around the problem by setting a flag in the interrupt handler and later checking it with a work procedure or a timer event which has previously been added. note: the article in the x journal 1:4 and the example in o'reilly volume 6 are in error. [thanks to pete ware (ware@cis.ohio-state.edu) and donna converse (converse@expo.lcs.mit.edu), 5/92] you may see these errors if you issue xlib requests from an xlib error handler, or, more likely, if you make calls which generate x requests to xt or xlib from a signal handler, which you shouldn't be doing in any case. it's very common to need to write an xt program that can accept input both from a user via the x connection and from some other file descriptor, but which operates efficiently and without blocking on either the x connection or the other file descriptor. a solution is use xtappaddinput(). after you open your file descriptor, use xtappaddinput() to register an input handler. the input handler will be called every time there is something on the file descriptor requiring your program's attention. write the input handler like you would any other xt callback, so it does its work quickly and returns. it is important to use only non-blocking i/o system calls in your input handlers. most input handlers read the file descriptor, although you can have an input handler write or handle exception conditions if you wish. be careful when you register an input handler to read from a disk file. you will find that the function is called even when there isn't input pending. xtappaddinput() is actually working as it is supposed to. the input handler is called whenever the file descriptor is ready to be read, not only when there is new data to be read. a disk file (unlike a pipe or socket) is almost always ready to be read, however, if only because you can spin back to the beginning and read data you've read before. the result is that your function will almost always be called every time around xtappmainloop(). there is a way to get the type of interaction you are expecting; add this line to the beginning of your function to test whether there is new data: if (ioctl(fd, fionread, &n) == -1 || n == 0) return; but, because this is called frequently, your application is effectively in a busy-wait; you may be better off not using xtappaddinput() and instead setting a timer and in the timer procedure checking the file for input. [courtesy dan heller (argv@ora.com), 8/90; mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu 5/91; ollie jones (oj@pictel.com) 6/92] you can do this using xsendevent(); it's likely that you're not setting the window field in the event, which xt needs in order to match to the widget which should receive the event. if you're sending events to your own application, then you can use xtdispatchevent() instead. this is more efficient than xsendevent() in that you avoid a round-trip to the server. depending on how well the widget was written, you may be able to call its action procedures in order to get the effects you want. [courtesy mark a. horstman (mh2620@sarek.sbc.com), 11/90] the_window = xcreatesimplewindow(the_display, root_window,size_hints.x,size_hints.y, size_hints.width,size_hints.height,border_width, blackpixel(the_display,the_screen), whitepixel(the_display,the_screen)); xselectinput(the_display,the_window,exposuremask|buttonpressmask| buttonreleasemask); xmapwindow(the_display,the_window); xdrawline(the_display,the_window,the_gc,5,5,100,100); you are right to map the window before drawing into it. however, the window is not ready to be drawn into until it actually appears on the screen -- until your application receives an expose event. drawing done before that will generally not appear. you'll see code like this in many programs; this code would appear after window was created and mapped: while (!done) xnextevent(the_display,&the_event); switch (the_event.type) { case expose: /* on expose events, redraw */ xdrawline(the_display,the_window,the_gc,5,5,100,100); break; note that there is a second problem: some xlib implementations don't set up the default graphics context to have correct foreground/background colors, so this program could previously include this code: the_gc_values.foreground=blackpixel(the_display,the_screen); /* e.g. */ the_gc_values.background=whitepixel(the_display,the_screen); /* e.g. */ the_gc = xcreategc(the_display,the_window, gcforeground|gcbackground,&the_gc_values); note: the code uses blackpixel and whitepixel to avoid assuming that 1 is black and 0 is white or vice-versa. the relationship between pixels 0 and 1 and the colors black and white is implementation-dependent. they may be reversed, or they may not even correspond to black and white at all. also note that actually using blackpixel and whitepixel is usually the wrong thing to do in a finished program, as it ignores the user's preference for foreground and background. and also note that you can run into the same situation in an xt-based program if you draw into the xtwindow(w) right after it has been realized; it may not yet have appeared. the 'screen' is an xlib structure which includes the information about one of the monitors or virtual monitors which a single x display supports. a server can support several independent screens. they are numbered unix:0.0, unix:0.1, unix:0.2, etc; the 'screen' or 'screen_number' is the second digit -- the 0, 1, 2 which can be thought of as an index into the array of available screens on this particular display connection. the macros which you can use to obtain information about the particular screen on which your application is running typically have two forms -- one which takes a screen and one with takes both the display and the screen_number. in xt-based programs, you typically use xtscreen(widget) to determine the screen on which your application is running, if it uses a single screen. (part of the confusion may arise from the fact that some of the macros which return characteristics of the screen have "display" in the names -- xdisplaywidth, xdisplayheight, etc.) the x11r4/5 header files are compatible with c++. the motif 1.1 header files are usable as is inside extern "c" {...}. however, the definition of string in intrinsic.h can conflict with the libg++ or other string class and needs to be worked around. some other projects which can help: wwl, a set of c++ classes by jean-daniel fekete to wrap x toolkit widgets, available via anonymous ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu as contrib/wwl-1.2.tar.z [7/92] or lri.lri.fr (129.175.15.1) as pub/wwl-1.2.tar.z. it works by building a set of c++ classes in parallel to the class tree of the the c++ interviews toolkit is obtainable via anonymous ftp from interviews.stanford.edu. interviews uses a box/glue model similar to that of tex for constructing user interfaces and supports multiple looks on the user interfaces. some of its sample applications include a wysiwig document editor (doc), a macdraw-like drawing program (idraw) and an interface builder (ibuild). things, a class library written at the rome air force base by the strategic air command, available as freeware on archive sites. motif++ is a public-domain library that defines c++ class wrappers for motif 1.1; it adds an "application" class for, e.g., initializing x, and also integrates wcl and the xbae widget set. this work was developed by ronald van loon <rvloon@cv.ruu.nl> based on x++, a set of bindings done by the university of lowell graphics research laboratory. the current sources are available from decuac.dec.com (192.5.214.1) as /pub/x11/motif++.21.jul.92.tar.z. the source code examples for doug young's "object-oriented programming with c++ and osf/motif" [isbn 0-13-630252-1] do not include "widget wrappers" but do include a set of classes that encapsulates higher-level facilities commonly needed by motif- or other xt-based applications; check export in ~ftp/contrib/young.c++.tar.z. rogue wave offers "view.h++" for c++ programmers using motif; info: 1-800-487-3217 or +1 503 754 2311. a product called "commonview" by glockenspiel ltd, ireland (??) apparently is a c++-based toolkit for multiple window systems, including pm, windows, and x/motif. xv++ is sold by qualix (415-572-0200; fax -1300); it implements an interface from the gil files that sun's openwindows developers guide 3.0 produces to xview wrapper classes in c++. uit is a set of c++ classes embedding the xview toolkit; it is intended for use with sun's openwindows developers guide 3.0 builder tool. sources are on export.mit.edu.au as uit.tar.z. version 2 was released 5/28/92. also of likely use is objectcenter (saber-c++). and a reasonable alternative to all of the above is parcplace's (formerly solbourne's) object [thanks to douglas s. rand (dsrand@mitre.org) and george wu (gwu@tcs.com);2/91] versions of the clx lisp bindings are part of the x11 core source distributions. a version of clx is on the r5 tape [10/91]; version 5.0.2 [9/92] is on export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib/clx.r5.02.tar.z. the saic ada-x11 bindings are through anonymous ftp in /pub from stars.rosslyn.unisys.com (128.126.164.2). there is an x/ada study team sponsored by nasa jsc, which apparently is working out bindings. information: xada@ghg.hou.tx.us. gnu smalltalk has a beta native smalltalk binding to x called stix (by steven.byrne@eng.sun.com). it is still in its beginning stages, and documentation is sparse outside the smalltalk code itself. the sources are available as /pub/gnu/smalltalk-1.1.1.tar.z on prep.ai.mit.edu (18.71.0.38) or ugle.unit.no (129.241.1.97). prolog bindings (called "xwip") written by ted kim at ucla while supported in part by darpa are available by anonymous ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/xwip.tar.z or ftp.cs.ucla.edu:pub/xwip.tar.z. these prolog language bindings depend on having a quintus-type foreign function interface in your prolog. the developer has gotten it to work with quintus and sicstus prolog. inquiries should go to xwip@cs.ucla.edu. [3/90] scheme bindings to xlib, osf/motif, and xaw are part of the elk distribution; version 1.5a on export obsoletes the version on the r5 contrib x-scm, a bolt-on accessory for aubrey jaffer's "scm" scheme interpreter that provides an interface to xlib, motif, and openlook, is now available via ftp from altdorf.ai.mit.edu:archive/scm/xscm1.05.tar.z and nexus.yorku.ca:pub/scheme/new/xscm1.05.tar.z. ada bindings to motif, explicitly, will eventually be made available by the jet propulsion laboratories, probably through the normal electronic means. advance information can be obtained from dsouleles@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov, who may respond as time permits. adamotif is a complete binding to x and motif for the ada language, for many common systems; it is based in part upon the saic/unisys bindings and also includes a uil to ada translator. info: systems engineering research corporation, 1-800-ada-serc (well!serc@apple.com). also: the mit consortium, although not involved in producing ada bindings for x, maintains a partial listing of people involved in x and ada; information is available from donna converse, converse@expo.lcs.mit.edu. no. once set, the background pixel or pixmap of a window cannot be re-read by clients. the reason for this is that a client can create a pixmap, set it to be the background pixmap of a window, and then free the pixmap. the window keeps this background, but the pixmap itself is destroyed. if you're sure a window has a background pixel (not a pixmap), you can use xcleararea() to clear a region to the background color and then use xgetimage() to read back that pixel. however, this action alters the contents of the window, and it suffers from race conditions with exposures. [courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun] note that the same applies to the border pixel/pixmap. this is a (mis)feature of the protocol which allows the server is free to manipulate the pixel/pixmap however it wants. by not requiring the server to keep the original pixel or pixmap, some (potentially a lot of) space can be saved. [courtesy jim fulton, mit x consortium] a completely transparent window is easy to get -- use an inputonly window. in order to create a window which is *mostly* transparent, you have several choices: - the shape extension first released with x11r4 offers an easy way to make non-rectangular windows, so you can set the shape of the window to fit the areas where the window should be nontransparent; however, not all servers support the extension. - a machine-specific method of implementing transparent windows for particular servers is to use an overlay plane supported by the hardware. note that there is no x notion of a "transparent color index". - a generally portable solution is to use a large number of tiny windows, but this makes operating on the application as a unit difficult. - a final answer is to consider whether you really need a transparent window or if you would be satisfied with being able to overlay your application window with information; if so, you can draw into separate bitplanes in colors that will appear properly. [thanks to der mouse, mouse@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu, 3/92; see also the x journal 1:4 for a more complete answer, including code samples for this last option] when using gxxor you may expect that drawing with a value of black on a background of black, for example, should produce white. however, the drawing operation does not work on rgb values but on colormap indices. the color that the resulting colormap index actually points to is undefined and visually random unless you have actually filled it in yourself. [on many x servers black and white often 0/1 or 1/0; programs taking advantage of this mathematical coincidence will break.] if you want to be combining colors with gxxor, then you should be allocating a number of your own color cells and filling them with your chosen pre-computed values. if you want to use gxxor simply to switch between two colors, then you can take the shortcut of setting the background color in the gc (graphics context) to 0 and the foreground color to a value such that when it draws over red, say, the result is blue, and when it draws over blue the result is red. this foreground value is itself the xor of the colormap indices of red and [thanks to chris flatters (cflatter@zia.aoc.nrao.edu) and ken whaley (whaley@spectre.pa.dec.com), 2/91] make sure you're using 16 bits and not 8. the red, green, and blue fields of an xcolor structure are scaled so that 0 is nothing and 65535 is full-blast. if you forget to scale (using, for example, 0-255 for each color) the xalloccolor function will perform correctly but the resulting color is usually black. [thanks to paul asente, asente@adobe.com, 7/91] i have an image-processing program which uses xgetrgbcolormap() to get the standard colormap, but it doesn't work. xgetrgbcolormap() when used with the property xa_rgb_default_map does not create a standard colormap -- it just returns one if one already exists. use xstdcmap or do what it does in order to create the standard colormap first. [1/91; from der mouse (mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu)] the initial contents of pixmaps are undefined. this means that most servers will allocate the memory and leave around whatever happens to be there -- which is usually garbage. you probably want to clear the pixmap first using xfillrectangle() with a function of gxcopy and a foreground pixel of whatever color you want as your background (or 0l if you are using the pixmap as a mask). [courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun] my program has the id of a window on a remote display. i want to check whether the window exists before doing anything with it. because x is asynchronous, there isn't a guarantee that the window would still exist between the time that you got the id and the time you sent an event to the window or otherwise manipulated it. what you should do is send the event without checking, but install an error handler to catch any badwindow errors, which would indicate that the window no longer exists. this scheme will work except on the [rare] occasion that the original window has been destroyed and its id reallocated to another window. [courtesy ken lee (klee@synoptics.com), 4/90] yes. the x server assigns ids to windows and other resources (actually, the server assigns some bits, the client others), and any application that knows the id can manipulate the resource [almost any x server resource, except for gcs and private color cells, can be shared]. the problem you face is how to disseminate the window id to multiple applications. a simple way to handle this (and which solves the problem of the applications' running on different machines) is in the first application to create a specially-named property on the root-window and put the window id into it. the second application then retrieves the property, whose name it also knows, and then can draw whatever it wants into the window. [note: this scheme works iff there is only one instance of the first application running, and the scheme is subject to the limitations mentioned in the question about using window ids on remote displays.] note also that you will still need to coordinate any higher-level cooperation among your applications. note also that two processes can share a window but should not try to use the same server connection. if one process is a child of the other, it should close down the connection to the server and open its own connection. [mostly courtesy phil karlton (karlton@wpd.sgi.com) 6/90] a number of applications, including xwd, xwininfo, and xsetroot, do not handle the virtual root window which tvtwm and swm use; they typically return the wrong child of root. a general solution is to add this code or to use it in your own application where you would normally use rootwindow(dpy,screen): /* function name: getvroot * description: gets the root window, even if it's a virtual root * arguments: the display and the screen * returns: the root window for the client #include <x11/xatom.h> window getvroot(dpy, scr) display *dpy; int scr; window rootreturn, parentreturn, *children; unsigned int numchildren; window root = rootwindow(dpy, scr); atom __swm_vroot = none; int i; __swm_vroot = xinternatom(dpy, "__swm_vroot", false); xquerytree(dpy, root, &rootreturn, &parentreturn, &children, &numchildren); for (i = 0; i < numchildren; i++) { atom actual_type; int actual_format; long nitems, bytesafter; window *newroot = null; if (xgetwindowproperty(dpy, children[i], __swm_vroot, 0, 1, false, xa_window, &actual_type, &actual_format, &nitems, &bytesafter, (unsigned char **) &newroot) == success && newroot) { root = *newroot; break; return root; [courtesy david elliott (dce@smsc.sony.com). similar code is in ssetroot, a version of xsetroot distributed with tvtwm. 2/91] a header file by andreas stolcke of icsi on export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/vroot.h functions similarly by providing macros for rootwindow and defaultrootwindow; code can include this header file first to run properly in the presence of a virtual desktop. resizing the window is done through the window manager; window managers can pay attention to the size hints your application places on the window, but there is no guarantee that the window manager will listen. you can try setting the minimum and maximum size hints to your target size and hope for the best. [1/91] it's rather antisocial for an application to constantly raise itself [e.g. by tracking visibilitynotify events] so that it isn't overlapped -- imagine the conflict between two such programs running. the only sure way to have your window appear on the top of the stack is to make the window override-redirect; this means that you are temporarily assuming window-management duties while the window is up, so you want to do this infrequently and then only for short periods of time (e.g. for popup menus or other short parameter-setting windows). [thanks to der mouse (mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu); 7/92] there is no easy way. unless you're willing to depend on some sort of extension (as yet non-existent), you have to arrange for the blinking yourself, either by redrawing the contents periodically or, if possible, by playing games with the colormap and changing the color of the contents. [thanks to mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der mouse), 7/91] users of xt have the support of the translation manager to help get notification of double-clicking. there is no good way to get only a double-click in xlib, because the protocol does not provide enough support to do double-clicks. you have to do client-side timeouts, unless the single-click action is such that you can defer actually taking it until you next see an event from the server. thus, you have to do timeouts, which means system-dependent code. on most unixish implementations, you can use xconnectionnumber to get the file descriptor of the x connection and then use select() or something similar on that. note that many user-interface references suggest that a double-click be used to extend the action indicated by a single-click; if this is the case in your interface then you can execute the first action and as a compromise check the timestamp on the second event to determine whether it, too, should be the single-click action or the double-click action. [thanks to mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der mouse), 4/93] xlib intentionally does not provide such sophisticated graphics capabilities, leaving them up to server-extensions or clients-side graphics your only choice, if you want to stay within the core x protocol, is to render the text into a pixmap, read it back via xgetimage(), rotate it "by hand" with whatever matrices you want, and put it back to the server via xputimage(); more specifically: 1) create a bitmap b and write your text to it. 2) create an xybitmap image i from b (via xgetimage). 3) create an xybitmap image i2 big enough to handle the transformation. 4) for each x,y in i2, i2(x,y) = i(a,b) where a = x * cos(theta) - y * sin(theta) b = x * sin(theta) + y * cos(theta) 5) render i2 note that you should be careful how you implement this not to lose bits; an algorithm based on shear transformations may in fact be better. the high-level server-extensions and graphics packages available for x also permit rendering of rotated text: display postscript, pex, phigs, and gks, although most are not capable of arbitrary rotation and probably do not use the same fonts that would be found on a printer. in addition, if you have enough access to the server to install a font on it, you can create a font which consists of letters rotated at some predefined angle. your application can then itself figure out placement of each [courtesy der mouse (mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu), eric taylor (etaylor@wilkins.bmc.tmc.edu), and ken lee (klee@synoptics.com), 11/90; liam quin (lee@sq.com), 12/90] interviews (c++ ui toolkit, in the x contrib software) has support for rendering rotated fonts in x. it could be one source of example code. [brian r. smith (brsmith@cs.umn.edu), 3/91] another possibility is to use the hershey fonts; they are stroke-rendered and can be used by x by converting them into xdrawline requests. [eric@pencom.com, 10/91] the xrotfont program by alan richardson (mppa3@syma.sussex.ac.uk) (posted to comp.sources.x july 14 1992) paints a rotated font by implementing the method above and by using an outline (hershey) font. the xvertext package by alan richardson (mppa3@syma.sussex.ac.uk) is a set of functions to facilitate the writing of text at any angle. version 3.0 was recently released to alt.sources and comp.sources.misc [3/93]; it is also on export as contrib/xvertext.3.0.shar.z. o'reilly's x resource volume 3 includes information from hp about modifications to the x fonts server which provide for rotated and scaled text. there are places in the x toolkit, in applications, and in the x protocol that define and use string names. the context is such that conflicts are possible if different components use the same name for different things. the mit x consortium maintains a registry of names in these domains: orgainization names, selection names, selection targets, resource types, application classes, and class extension record types; and several others. the list as of 7/91 is in the directory mit/doc/registry on the r5 tape; it is also available by sending "send docs registry" to the xstuff mail to register names (first come, first served) or to ask questions send to xregistry@expo.lcs.mit.edu; be sure to include a postal address for [11/90; condensed from asente/swick appendix h] david b. lewis faq%craft@uunet.uu.net "just the faqs, ma'am." -- joe friday david b. lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual, inc. day: dbl@visual.com evening: david%craft@uunet.uu.net 
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 i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you < duvvuri@cs.odu.edu > 
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 archive-name: x-faq/part3 last-modified: 1993/04/04 the release of new public patches by the mit x consortium is announced in the comp.windows.x.announce newsgroup. patches themselves are available via ftp from export and from other sites from which x11 is available. they are now also distributed through the newsgroup comp.sources.x. some source re-sellers may be including patches in their source distributions of x11. people without ftp access can use the xstuff mail server. it now has 23 patches for x11r5 [3/93]. send to xstuff@expo.lcs.mit.edu the subject line send fixes # where # is the name of the patch and is usually just the number of the patch. here are a few complications: 1) fix 5 is in four parts; you need to request "5a", "5b", "5c" and "5d" separately 2) the file sungx.uu, which was part of an earlier patch, was re-released with patch 7 [note: the file doesn't work with solaris] 3) fix 8 is in two parts: "8a" and "8b" 4) fix 13 is in three parts: "13a", "13b", and "13c" 5) fix 16 is in two parts: "16a" and "16b" 6) fix 18 replaces the r5fix-test1 for the x test suite, which previously was optional 7) fix 19 also needs pexlib.tar.z, which you can obtain from xstuff by asking for "pexlib.uu.[1234]". 8) fix 22 is in 9 parts, "22a" through "22i" the xstuff server is a mail-response program. that means that you mail it a request, and it mails back the response. any of the four possible commands must be the first word on a line. the xstuff server reads your entire message before it does anything, so you can have several different commands in a single message (unless you ask for help). the xstuff server treats the "subject:" header line just like any other line of the message. the archives are organized into a series of directories and subdirectories. each directory has an index, and each subdirectory has an index. the top-level index gives you an overview of what is in the subdirectories, and the index for each subdirectory tells you what is in it. 1) the command "help" or "send help" causes the server to send you a more detailed version of this help file. 2) if your message contains a line whose first word is "index", then the server will send you the top-level index of the contents of the archive. if there are other words on that line that match the name of subdirectories, then the indexes for those subdirectories are sent instead of the top-level index. for example, you can say "send index fixes" (or "index fixes"). a message that requests an index cannot request data. 3) if your message contains a line whose first word is "send", then the xstuff server will send you the item(s) named on the rest of the line. to name an item, you give its directory and its name. for example send fixes 1 4 8a 8b 9 you may issue multiple send requests. the xstuff server contains many safeguards to ensure that it is not monopolized by people asking for large amounts of data. the mailer is set up so that it will send no more than a fixed amount of data each day. if the work queue contains more requests than the day's quota, then the unsent files will not be processed until the next day. whenever the mailer is run to send its day's quota, it sends the requests out shortest-first. 4) some mailers produce mail headers that are unusable for extracting return addresses. if you use such a mailer, you won't get any response. if you happen to know an explicit path, you can include a line like path foo%bar.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu path bar!foo!frotz in the body of your message, and the daemon will use it. the xstuff server itself can be reached at xstuff@expo.lcs.mit.edu. if your mailer deals in "!" notation, try sending to {someplace}!mit-eddie!expo.lcs.mit.edu!xstuff. [based on information from the mit x consortium, 8/89, 4/90.] integrated computer solutions, inc., ships x11r4 on half-inch, quarter-inch, and tk50 formats. call 617-621-0060 for ordering information. the free software foundation (617-876-3296) sells x11r4 on half-inch tapes and on qic-24 cartridges. yaser doleh (doleh@math-cs.kent.edu; p.o. box 1301, kent, oh 44240) is making x11r4 available on hp format tapes, 16 track, and sun cartridges. [2/90] european sites can obtain a free x11r4 distribution from jamie watson, who may be reached at chx400!pan!jw or jw@pan.uu.ch. [10/90] non standard logics (+33 (1) 43 36 77 50; requests@nsl.fr) makes source ixi limited (+44 223 462 131) is selling x11r4 source on quarter-inch cartridge formats and on 5.25" and 3.5" floppy, with other formats available on request. [ixi, 2/90] virtual technologies (703-430-9247) provides the entire x11r4 compressed source release on a single qic-24 quarter-inch cartridge and also on 1.2meg or 1.44 meg floppies upon request. [conor cahill (cpcahil@virtech.uu.net) 2/90] young minds (714-335-1350) makes the r4 and gnu distributions available on a full-text-indexed cd-rom. [note that some distributions are media-only and do not include docs.] x11r4 is ftp-able from export.lcs.mit.edu; these sites are preferable, though, and are more direct: machine internet ftp location name address directory (1) west usa gatekeeper.dec.com 16.1.0.2 pub/x11/r4 central usa mordred.cs.purdue.edu 128.10.2.2 pub/x11/r4 (2) central usa giza.cis.ohio-state.edu 128.146.8.61 pub/x.v11r4 southeast usa uunet.uu.net 192.48.96.2 x/r4 (3) northeast usa crl.dec.com 192.58.206.2 pub/x11/r4 (4) uk janet src.doc.ic.ac.uk 129.31.81.36 x.v11r4 uk niftp uk.ac.ic.doc.src <xv11r4> (5) australia munnari.oz.au 128.250.1.21 x.v11/r4 the giza.cis.ohio-state.edu site, in particular, is known to have much of the contrib stuff that can be found on export. the release is available to dec easynet sites as crl::"/pub/x11/r4". sites in australia may contact this address: ftp.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.40.3] and check the directory pub/x/r4. the machine shadows export and archives comp.sources.x. (mark prior, mrp@ucs.adelaide.edu.au, 5/90) note: a much more complete list is distributed as part of the introductory postings to comp.sources.x. a set of x11r4 binaries built by tom roell (roell@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) for the 386/ix will available from export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib and in /pub/i386/x11r4 from 131.159.8.35 in europe. stephen hite (shite@sinkhole.unf.edu) can also distribute to folks without ftp facilities via disks sent sase; contact him for usmail and shipping details. [12/90] in addition, the binaries are available via uucp from szebra [1-408-739-1520, tb+ (pep); ogin:nuucp sword:nuucp] in /usr2/xbbs/bbs/x. in addition, the source is on zok in /usrx/i386.r4server/. [2/91] in addition, if you are in the us, the latest svr4 binary (april 15), patches, and fonts are available on piggy.ucsb.edu (128.111.72.50) in the directory /pub/x386, same filenames as above. (please use after 6pm pacific, as these are large files.) [5/91] a set of hp 9000/800 binaries is available on hpcvaaz.cv.hp.com (15.255.72.15) as ~ftp/pub/mitx11r4/libs.x800.z. [2/91] a set of x11r4 binaries for the next 2.x have been made available by howie kaye on cunixf.cc.columbia.edu a set of binaries by john coolidge (coolidge@cs.uiuc.edu) for the mac running a/ux 2.0 is available from wuarchive.wustl.edu in the file (/archive/systems/aux/x11r4/xupdate2.tar.z). also in x11r4/diffs is a set of patches for making x11r4 with shared libraries with mkshlib. a complete distribution of sco x11r4 binaries by baruch cochavy (blue@techunix.technion.ac.il) can be found on uunet. the server is roell's x386 1.1b, compiled for et4000 based svga boards. you can obtain either osf/motif source or binaries from a number of motif 1.2.2 source is now available; it is based on x11r5. motif 1.1 is based on the r4.18 intrinsics and is currently [7/92] at 1.1.5. an osf/motif source license must be obtained from osf before source can be obtained from the open software foundation or any value-added vendor for any version. call the direct channels desk at osf at 617-621-7300 for ordering various hardware vendors produce developer's toolkits of binaries, header files, and documentation; check your hardware vendor, particularly if that vendor is an osf member. in addition, independent binary vendors produce motif toolkits for machines for which motif is not supported by a vendor; the kits include varied levels of bug-fixing and support for shared libraries and are based on widely divergent version of motif: quest (408-988-8880) sells kits for suns, as well; ixi (+44 223 462 131) offers kits for sun3 and sun4. nsl (+33 (1) 43 36 77 50; requests@nsl.fr) offers kits for the sun 3 and sun 4. bluestone consulting makes a kit for sun systems. ics (617-62-0060) makes several binary kits, notably for sun, dec. hp and dec have announced support for motif on sun systems. unipalm (+44-954-211-797) currently offers for sun systems a motif development kit including x11r4 and based on motif 1.1.2. the us distributor is expert object corp (708-926-8500). bim ships motif 1.1 binaries for suns. shared library support is included. contact alain vermeiren (av@sunbim.be) or danny backx (db@sunbim.be) at +32(2)759.59.25 (fax : +32(2)759.47.95) (belgium). silogic (+33 61.57.95.95) ships motif 1.2 and motif 1.1 on sun s.i. systems offers motif 1.2 for solaris 2.1; info: 1-800-755-8649 in usa and canada. metro link inc. (305-970-7353, sales@metrolink.com; in europe contact adnt, (33 1) 3956 5333, univision (uk) ltd. (44) 628 82 22 81) ships an implementation of x11r4 and motif 1.1.2 (including a shared-library implementation of libxm.a) for the 386/486 unix market. motif 1.1.2 is also available for sun sparc based workstations. it has also announced motif 1.2 for solaris systems. motif 1.2 is based on x11r5. motif 1.1, available in source form from osf as of august 1990, uses the "vanilla" x11r4 intrinsics, where "vanilla" means "with just a few patches"; the file fix-osf which osf distributes is obsoleted by mit's patches 15-17. the file fix-osf-1.1.1 distributed with the 1.1.1 version or its subsequent modification needs to be applied after mit fix-18, though. motif 1.1.1 to 1.1.3 will work with x11r5 if x11r5 is compiled with -dmotifbc; 1.1.4 and later should work with the vanilla r5, although there are some known new geometry-management problems. sun's xview has a sunview-style api. a version is on the x11r4 tape; the latest [2/92] 3.0 sources are on export in contrib/xview3/. xview and x binaries for the sun 386i ("roadrunner") are available for ftp from svin01.win.tue.nl (131.155.70.70), directory pub/x11r4_386i. supported binaries of xview 2.0 or 3.0 include: xview for non-sun platforms (domestic and selected international vendors). several are also available from sun; contact your local sales office. amiga gfxbase, inc. 1881 ellwell drive (amigados) (408) 262-1469 milpitas, ca 95035 fax: (408) 262-8276 sony (news-os) ibm rs/6000 hp 9000 decstation unipress software 2025 lincoln highway (ultrix) (908) 985-8000 edison, nj 08817 fax: (908) 287-4929 unipress software, ltd. po box 70 44-624-661-8850 viking house fax: 44-624-663-453 nelson street douglas, isle of man united kingdom dec vaxstation tgv 603 mission street (vms) (800) tgv-3440 santa cruz, ca 95060 (408) 427-4366 fax: (408) 427-4365 unipalm ltd. 145-147 st. neots road 44-0954-211797 hardwick fax: 44-0954-211244 cambridge cb3 7qj intel 386 quarterdeck office 150 pico boulevard (dos) systems santa monica, ca 90405 (213) 392-9851 fax: (213) 399-3802 intel 386 sunsoft corporation 6601 center drive west (interactive 310-348-8649 suite 700 unix and los angeles, ca 90045 sco unix) stardent scripps institute clinic mb-5 (stellix os fax: (619) 554-4485 10666 n. torrey pines road and titan os) include mailstop mb-5 la jolla, ca 92057 by ftp: 192.42.82.8 in pub/binary/{xview.readme,xview.tar.z} at&t's open look gui 3.0 xt-based toolkit is now generally available [2/92]; contact 1-800-828-unix#544 for information. binaries are produced for sparc systems by international quest corporation (408-988-8289). a version of the toolkit is also produced under the name olit by sun. more recent versions of olit have been ported to ibm 6000 and dec mips by both unipress and ics. olit is also available for hp from melillo consulting (908-873-0075). mjm (somerset, nj) makes olit 4.0 for hp 7xx series running hpux 8.0, decstations, and rs/6000s [thanks to joanne newbauer, jo@attunix.att.com, 908-522-6677.] sun is shipping openwindows 3.0; contact your local sales representative for more details; the package includes toolkit binaries and header files. parcplace's (formerly solbourne's) extensible c++-based object interface library, which supports run-time selection between open look or motif, is available from 303-678-4626. [5/92] the mit software center ships the x test suite on tape. a multi-threaded version of xlib based on x11r5 patch 12 is now available for anonymous ftp from (new version 1/93): dec on gatekeeper.dec.com (16.1.0.2) in /pub/x11/contrib/mt-xlib-1.1 mit on export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in /contrib/mt-xlib-1.1 hp has made available drivers to permit the building of the x11r5 sample server on the hp 9000 series 700 workstations; the files are on export.lcs.mit.edu in ~ftp/contrib/r5.hp.srv. [8/92] user-contributed software is distributed through the newsgroup comp.sources.x, moderated by chris olson (chris@imd.sterling.com); also check that group for posting information. richard hesketh (rlh2@ukc.ac.uk) has been creating a list of freely- available x sources. the list is stored on export.lcs.mit.edu in contrib as x-source-list.z. it lists the main storage locations for the program and international sites from which it may be ftp'ed. the machine export.lcs.mit.edu has a great deal of user-contributed software in the contrib/ directory; a good deal of it is present in current or earlier versions on the x11r3, x11r4, and x11r5 contrib tapes. there are also directories for fixes to contrib software. the file on export in contrib/00-index.txt is a quick overall index of the software in that area, provided by daniel lewart (d-lewart@uiuc.edu). these sites used to and may still mirror export and are of particular use for australasia: anonymous ftp: ftp.adelaide.edu.au; acsnet fetchfile: sirius.ua.oz. the material on giza.cis.ohio-state.edu, which tends to duplicate the export archives, is also available via anonymous uucp from osu-cis, at tb+ and v.32 speeds. write to uucp@cis.ohio-state.edu (same as osu-cis!uucp) for instructions. [the archive is now maintained by karl kleinpaste] a new west-coast uucp x11 archive is administered by mark snitily (mark@zok.uucp) and contains the full x11 distribution, the xtest distribution, an entire archive of comp.sources.x and other goodies. the machine zok has a tb+ modem which will connect to 19.2k, 2400, 1200 baud (in that order). the anonymous uucp account is uxarch with password xgoodies. the modem's phone number is 408-996-8285. a sample systems (or l.sys) entry might be: zok any acu 19200 4089968285 in:--in: uxarch word: xgoodies to get a current listing of the files that are available, download the file "/usrx/ls-lr.z". a full subject index of the comp.sources.x files is available in the file "/usrx/comp.sources.x/index". the machine has just the one modem, so please do not fetch large amounts of data at one sitting. [courtesy mark snitily, 2/90] in addition, uunet source archives (703-876-5050) tracks comp.sources.x and provides 800mb+ of compressed programs on 6250 bpi tapes or 1/4" tapes. it also mirrors export/contrib in its packages/x directory. the free widget foundation (fwf) library sponsored by brian totty (totty@cs.uiuc.edu) is now [2/93] available on a.cs.uiuc.edu (128.174.252.1) in pub/fwf-v3.41.shar.z. the set of widgets there is intended to form the basis for future contributions. to be added to the discussion list, send to listserv@cs.uiuc.edu a message saying "subscribe <listname> <your-full-name>" where <listname> is one of free-widgets-announce, free-widgets-development, or free-widgets-bugs. version 3.4 is current; look for 4.0 in 4/93. the xew widget set contains widgets for data representation. version 1.2 [4/93] is on export contrib/xew-1.2.tar.z. peter ware's xo "open widget" set, which has motif-like functionality, is on archive.cis.ohio-state.edu as pub/xo/xo-2.1.tar.z [8/92]. the athenatools plotter widget set version 6-beta [7/92] maintained by peter klingebiel (klin@iat.uni-paderborn.de) includes many graph and plotting widgets; a copy is on export in plotter.v6b.tar.z, plotter.doc.tar.z, plotter.afm.tar.z, and plotter.readme. the latest versions may in fact be on ftp@uni-paderborn.de (131.234.2.32) in /unix/tools. an advance version of marc quinton's motif port of the fwf multilist widget is in ftp.stna7.stna.dgac.fr:pub/multilist.tar.z [143.196.9.31]. additional widgets are available on the contrib/ portion of the x11r4 tapes; these include the xcu set. paul johnston's (johnston@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov) x control panel widget set emulates hardware counterparts; sources are on export.lcs.mit.edu in xc-1.3.tar.z. o'reilly volume 4, doug young's book, the asente/swick book, and jerry smith's "object-oriented programming with the x window system toolkits" all include details on writing widgets and include several useful widgets; sources are typically on export and/or uunet. the dirt interface builder includes the libxukc widet set which extends the functionality of xaw. a graph widget and other 2d-plot and 3d-contour widgets by sundar narasimhan (sundar@ai.mit.edu) are available from ftp.ai.mit.edu as /com/ftp/pub/users/sundar/graph.tar.z. the graph widget has been updated [3/91] with documentation and histogram capabilities. a graph widget is available from ftp.stna7.stna.dgac.fr in pub/graph.tar.z; it uses a segment list for drawing and hence supports a zoom ken lee's xm widget (demo) that uses display postscript to draw labels at a non-horizontal angle is on export in contrib/dpslabel.tar.z. the table widget (works like troff tbl tables) is available in several flavors, one of which is with the widget creation library release. bell communications research has developed a matrix widget for complex application layouts; it's on export in contrib/xbae-widgets-3.8.tar.z [2/93. the distribution also includes a "caption" widget to associate labels with particular gui components. (7/92) dan connolly's (connolly@convex.com) xcrichtext interprets rtf data; it's on export as contrib/xcrichtext-1.1.tar.z. the xmgraph motif-based graphing widget is on iworks.ecn.uiowa.edu in /comp.hp/gui_classic/xmgraph.tar.z although it may not be stable. a tex-style layout widget by keith packard is described in the proceedings of the 7th mit technical conference (o'reilly x resource volume 5); source is available on export contrib/layout.tar.z. a version of lee iverson's (leei@mcrcim.mcgill.edu) image-viewing tool is available as contrib/vimage-0.9.3.tar.z on export.lcs.mit.edu. the package also includes an imageviewport widget and a filedialog widget. [12/91;5/92] in addition, the pext toolkit by rich thomson (rthomson@dsd.es.com) is available on export as pext.tar.z; it includes a pex widget making it easier to use pex in xt-based programs. a motif port of the xaw clock widget is in ftp.stna7.stna.dgac.fr in pub/clock.tar.z. a modification of the xaw scrollbar widget which supports the arrowhead style of other toolkits is on export in contrib/xaw.scrollbar.mta.z. a beta 0.3 (11/92) release of the r5 xaw widgets with a 3d visual appearance by kaleb keithley (kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov) is available on export in contrib/xaw3d/r5/xaw3d-0.3.tar.z. the library, which is binary-compatible with the mit xaw, implements a 3d subclass which handles the extra drawing. also: the xmt "motif tools", dovetail systems's shareware library of 9 widgets and many convenience functions, is available from export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib and ftp.ora.com:/pub/xbook/xmt in xmt-readme and xmt-1.0.tar.z. the xtra xwidgets set includes widgets for pie and bar charts, xy plots, help, spreadsheets, data entry forms, and line and bar graphs. contact graphical software technology at 310-328-9338 (info@gst.com) for information. the xrt/graph widget, available for motif, xview and olit, displays x-y plots, bar and pie charts, and supports user-feedback, fast updates and postscript output. contact kl group inc. at 416-594-1026 (info@klg.com). a set of data-entry widgets for motif is available from marlan software, 713-467-1458 (gwg@world.std.com). a set of graph widgets is available from expert database systems (212-370-6700). a set of osf/motif compound widgets and support routines for 2d visualization is available from ms quek lee hian, national computer board, republic of singapore; tel : (65)7720435; fax : (65)7795966; leehian@iti.gov.sg, leehian@itivax.bitnet. the ics widget databook includes a variety of control widgets and special-purpose widgets, available on a variety of platforms. information: 617-621-0060, info@ics.com. information on graphing tools may be obtained from info@tomsawyer.com (+1-510-848-0853, fax: +1-510-848-0854). the free widget foundation set offers a fileselector widget, with separate directory path and file listing windows, and the filecomplete, which has emacs-style file completion and ~ expansion. other available file-requestor widgets include the xifileselector from iris software's book, the xdbx file-selector extracted by david nedde (daven@wpi.wpi.edu), and the filenominator from the axe distribution. the ghostview, xfig, and vimage packages also include file-selector some widget sets have a widget particularly for this purpose -- a workspace or drawingarea which doesn't display anything but lets your xt application know when it has been re-exposed, resized, and when it has received user key and mouse input. the best thing to do for other widget sets -- including the athena set -- is to create or obtain such a widget; this is preferable to drawing into a core widget and grabbing events with xtaddeventhandler(), which loses a number of benefits of xt and encapsulation of the functionality . at least one version has been posted to comp.sources.x (name???). the publicly-available programs xball and xpic include other versions. the athena widget manual (mit/doc/xaw/template in the r5 distribution) includes a tutorial and source code to a simple widget which is suitable for the free widget foundation set contains a canvas widget. jim morton (jim@applix.com) posts quarterly to comp.windows.x a list of manufacturers and terminals; it includes pricing information. notable buyers-guide surveys include: - the september 1991 issue of systems integration labtam (+61 3 587 1444, fax +61 3 580 5581) offers a 19" surface acoustic wave touch-screen option on its xengine terminals. tektronix (1-800-225-5434) provides an x terminal with the xtouch touch-screen. this terminal may also be resold through trident systems (703-273-1012). metro link (305-970-7353) supports the elographics serial touch screen mit x11r5 already provides a server to many 386/486 *unixes* with support for many of the popular video graphics adapters; and for other non-msdos pcs you can obtain a server from these sources: xfree86 (formerly x386 1.2e) is an enhanced version of x386 1.2, which was distributed with x11r5; it includes many bug fixes, speed improvements, and other enhancements. source for version 1.2 [2/93] is on export.lcs.mit.edu in pub/contrib, ftp.physics.su.oz.au in /x386, and ftp.win.tue.nl in /pub/x386. in addition, binaries are on ftp.physics.su.oz.au, and ftp.win.tue.nl among other systems. info: x386@physics.su.oz.au. note: this package obsoletes glenn lai's speedup patches for an enhanced x11r5 server for 386 unixes with et4000 boards (speedup.tar.z on export). metro link inc. (305-970-7353, sales@metrolink.com; in europe contact adnt, (33 1) 3956 5333) ships an implementation of x11r4 for the 386/486 unix sgcs offers x386 version 1.3, based on thomas roell's x11r5 two-headed server, in binary and source form. information: 408-255-9665, info@sgcs.com. isc, sco, uhc, and other well-known operating-system vendors typically offer x servers. for msdos pcs: daniel j. mccoy (mccoy@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov) has started posting monthly a list of non-unix servers for pcs, macs, and amigas; it includes pricing information. the current copy is kept on export in contrib as xservers-nonunix.txt.z. an article on pc x servers appears in the march 2, 1992 open systems today. also of possible use: net-i from programit (212-809-1707) enables communication among dos, os/2 and unix machines and can be used to display pc sessions on your unix x display. exodus from white pine software (603-886-9050) runs on any mac with at least 1mb of memory and runs the x server within a standard macintosh window. version 3.0 [6/91] supports intermixing of x and mac windows and the adsp protocol. the version supports the shape extension and includes decwindows support. apple's macx runs on macplus or newer machines with >= 2mb of memory and system software 6.0.4 or later. version 1.1 is fully x11r4-based. it supports full icccm-compatible cut and paste of text and graphics between the macintosh and x11 worlds, the shape extension (including shaped windows on the macintosh desktop), an optional built-in icccm-compliant window manager, x11r4 fonts and colors, a built-in bdf font compiler, and built-in standard colormaps. upgrades to macx are available by ftp from aux.support.apple.com. info: 408-996-1010. [note: macx is also the name of a vax-mac xmodem transfer utility.] also: liken (1-800-245-unix or info@qualix.com) software enables monochrome 68000 mac applications to run on a sparc system running x. xport (1-800-245-unix (415-572-0200) or xport@qualix.com) enables mac applications to display on an x-based workstation by turning the mac into an x intercon has a product called planet-x which enables mac applications to display on an x server. the new amiga 3000 machines offer an x server and open look tools and libraries on a full svr4 implementation. gfxbase, inc. provides "x11 r4.1" for the amigados computer; it contains x11r4 clients, fonts, etc., and a release 4 color server. an optional programmer's toolkit includes the header files, libraries, and sample programs. info from gfxbase, 408-262-1469. [dale luck (uunet!{cbmvax|pyramid}!boing!dale); 2/91] the r5 server should be among the fastest available for most machines. sun sells a "direct xlib" product which improves rendering for applications running on the same machine as the x server; the replacement xlib library accesses graphics hardware directly using sun's direct graphics access (dga) technology. international quest corporation (408-988-8289) has an optimized r4 server for sun3/4 under sunos 4.0. unipalm have r4 servers for sun3 and sparc platforms. these are optimised to use graphics hardware and will run with sunview. information: +44 954 211797 or xtech@unipalm.co.uk. xgraph's xtool (408-492-9031) is an x server implemented in sunview which boasts impressive results on sun 3 and sparc systems. [6/90] several companies are making hardware accellerator boards: dupont pixel systems (302-992-6911), for sun. megatek's (619-455-5590) x-cellerator board for the sun 3 and sun 4 is based on the ti 34020; the company claims performance improvements of 5x to 10x over the sample x11r3 server. takahashi naoto (electrotechnical laboratory, ntakahas@etl.go.jp) has modified the mit x11r5 server to support the sun cg8, cg9, and cg12 boards. the files are on export in contrib/xsun24-3.[01].tar.z. note that both files are necessary to build xsun24-3.1. the jpl r5 xsun multi-screen server is a general purpose replacement for the mit server/ddx/sun layer; it provides for the screen to be split among several monitors and implements several other features above the mit implementation. available on export.lcs.mit.edu in the file contrib/r5.xsun.multi-screen.tar.z. [kaleb keithley, kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov, 12/91; the file was updated 24 mar 1993.] seth robertson (seth@ctr.columbia.edu) has written xkernel; the current version [1.4 as of 8/91, 2.0 expected rsn] is on sol.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.40] in /pub/xkernel.gamma. it turns a sun 3/50 into a pseudo- x terminal; most of the overhead of the operating system is side-stepped, so it is fairly fast and needs little disk space. a similar approach is to run the regular x server by making /etc/init a shell script which does the minimal setup and then invokes xsun, like this example script from mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu: #! /bin/sh exec >/dev/console 2>&1 /etc/fsck -p /dev/nd0 case $? in 0) ;; 4) /etc/reboot -q -n 8) echo nd fsck failed - get help /etc/halt 12) echo interrupted /etc/reboot *) echo unknown error in reboot fsck - get help /etc/halt /bin/dd if=/tmp-fs of=/dev/nd2 bs=512 count=128 >/dev/null 2>&1 /etc/mount /dev/nd2 /tmp /etc/ifconfig le0 netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 132.206.41.255 /etc/mount -o ro apollo:/u2/x11/lib /local/lib/x11 /etc/route add default 132.206.41.1 1 >/dev/null set `/etc/ifconfig le0` exec /xsun -once -multidisp -mux -query \ `(sh -vn </local/lib/x11/xdm-servers/$2 2>&1)` pcs has rewritten xterm from scratch using a multi-widget approach that can be used by applications. a version is on the r5 contrib tape and on export in contrib/emu.tar.z [10/91]. for more information, contact me@dude.pcs.com. mxterm, a motif-based xterm is available from the paderborner ftp-server ftp@uni-paderborn.de (131.234.2.32), file /unix/x11/more_contrib/mxterm.tar.z. the color terminal widget provides ansi-terminal emulation compatible with the vtx00 series; a version is on export in contrib/ctw-1.1.tar.z. a motif version is on ftp.stna7.stna.dgac.fr in pub/term-1.0.tar.z. kterm 4.1.2 is an x11r4-based vt100/vt102 (and tektronix 4014) terminal emulator that supports display of chinese, japanese, and korean text (in vt mode). also supported are: ansi color sequences, multi-byte word selection, limited compound text support, and tab and newline preservation in selections. kterm 4.1.2 is also available from these anonymous ftp sites: clr.nmsu.edu:pub/misc/kterm-4.1.2.tar.z [128.123.1.14] export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/kterm-4.1.2.tar.z [18.24.0.12] kum.kaist.ac.kr:pub/unix/xstuffs/kterm-4.1.2.tar.z [137.68.1.65] [courtesy of mark leisher <mleisher@nmsu.edu> ] kterm-5.1.1.tar.z is now on export [12/92]. mterm, by mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu, is an x terminal emulator which includes ansi x3.64 and dec emulation modes. mterm can be had by ftp to larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (132.206.1.1), in x/mterm.src/mterm.ball-o-wax. cxterm is a chinese xterm, which supports both gb2312-1980 and the so-called big-5 encoding. hanzi input conversion mechanism is builtin in cxterm. most input methods are stored in external files that are loaded at run time. users can redefine any existing input methods or create their own ones. the x11r5 cxterm is the rewritten of cxterm (version 11.5.1) based on x11r5 xterm; it is in the r5 contrib software. [thanks to zhou ning <zhou@tele.unit.no> and steinar bang <uunet!idt.unit.no!steinarb>.] xvt is available on export's contrib in xvt-1.0.tar.z and xvt-1.0.readme. it is designed to offer xterm's functionality with lower swap space and may be of particular use on systems driving many x terminals. x3270 is in x11r5 contrib/. also: ibm sells a 3270 emulator for the rs/6000 (part #5765-011); it's based on motif. century software (801-268-3088) sells a vt220 terminal emulator for x. vt102, wyse 50 and sco color console emulation are also available. grafpoint's tgraf-x provides emulation of tektronix 4107, 4125, and 42xx graphics terminals; it's available for most major platforms. information (inc. free demo copies): 800-426-2230; fax. 408-446-0666; uunet!grafpnt!sales. ixi's x.deskterm, a package for integrating character-based applications into an x environment, includes a number of terminal-emulation modules. information: +44 (0223) 462131. [5/90] pericom produces teem-x, a set of several emulation packages for a number of tek, dec, westward, and data general terminals. the software runs on sun 3, sun 4, apollo, dec, isc, ibm/aix. information: us: 609-895-0404, uk: +44 (0908) 560022. [5/90] sco's scoterm (info@sco.com), part of its open desktop environment, is a motif-compliant sco ansi color console emulator. you can ftp a version of gnu emacs, the extensible, customizable, self-documenting, real-time display editor, including x11 support, from prep.ai.mit.edu [18.71.0.38]:/pub/gnu/emacs-18.59.tar.z or informatik.tu-muenchen.de:/pub/gnu/emacs/emacs-18.59.tar.z. epoch is a modified version of gnu emacs (18) with additional facilities useful in an x environment. current sources are on cs.uiuc.edu (128.174.252.1) in ~ftp/pub/epoch-files/epoch; the current [3/92] version is 4.0. [in europe, try unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de]. there are two subdirectories: epoch contains the epoch source, and gwm contains the source to the programmable window manager gwm, with which epoch works well.] you can get on the epoch mailing list by sending a request to epoch-request@cs.uiuc.edu. lucid emacs is a version of gnu emacs derived from an early version of emacs version 19. it currently requires x windows to run; x support is greatly enhanced over gnu emacs version 18, including support for multiple x windows, input and display of all iso-8859-1 (latin1) characters, zmacs/lispm style region highlighting, a customizable motif-like menubar, more powerful keymap support, flexible text attributes, support on regional and screen-local basis through x resources and/or lisp, and support for the x11 selection mechanism. lucid emacs is free; the latest version (2/93) is 19.4, and is available from labrea.stanford.edu in the pub/gnu/lucid/ directory. the andrew system on the x11 contrib tapes has been described as one of the best word-processing packages available. it supports word processing with multi-media embedded objects: rasters, tables/spread sheets, drawings, style editor, application builder, embedded programming language, &c. release 5.1 became available 2 june 92. [fred hansen (wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu)] you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software; try "finger help@atk.itc.cmu.edu" for help. the interviews c++ toolkit contains a wysiwig editor called doc; it saves and loads files in a latex-*like* format (not quite latex). the package can also import idraw-postscript drawings. a simple editor axe (by j.k.wight@newcastle.ac.uk) is available on export and arjuna.newcastle.ac.uk (128.240.150.1) as axe-4.1.tar.z [3/93]. it is based around the xaw text widget. ted is a simple motif-based text editor; it is a wrapper around the motif text widget which offers search/replace, paragraph formatting, and navigation features. ted is available from ftp.eos.ncsu.edu (152.1.9.25) as /pub/bill.tar.z; here are also executables there. point, by crowley@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (charlie crowley), is tcl/tk-based and offers dyanimic configuration and programming in the tcl macro language. the editor is available from unmvax.cs.unm.edu (129.24.16.1) as pub/point/point1.1-tar.z. asedit, by andrzej stochniol (astoch@ic.ac.uk) is on export in contrib/asedit.tar.z. it is a simple text editor built around the motif text widget. version 1.11 was released 1/93. also: elan computer group (mountain view, ca; 415-964-2200) has announced the avalon publisher 2.0, an x11/open look wysiwyg electronic publishing system. framemaker and framewriter are available as x-based binary products for several machines. frame is at 800-843-7263 (ca: 408-433-3311). wx2 (formerly indepthedit) is available from non standard logics (+33 (1) 43 36 77 50; requests@nsl.fr). buzzwords international inc. has an editor called 'professional edit' that runs under x/motif for various platforms. info: +1-314-334-6317. decwrite is available from dec for some dec hardware and sunwrite is available from sun. islandwrite will soon be available from island graphics (415-491-1000) (info@island.com) for some hp & apollo platforms. interleaf is currently available from interleaf (800-241-7700, ma: 617-577-9800) on all sun and dec platforms; others are under development. the aster*x office integration tools from applix (1-800-8applix, ma: 508-870-0300) include a multi-font wysiwg document composer; for several arbortext, inc. provides an x11 version of its electronic publishing program called "the publisher". the publisher is available on sun, hp and apollo workstations. contact arbortext at 313-996-3566. [5/90] iris computing laboratories offers the "ie" editor. info: +1-505-988-2670 or info@spectro.com. bbn/slate from bbn software products includes a menu-driven word processor with multiple fonts and style sheets. it supports x on multiple platforms. (617-873-5000 or slate-offer@bbn.com) [11/90] the powerful "sam" editor by rob pike is split into a host portion and a front-end graphics portion, which now has an x implementation. sam is now available by anonymous ftp from research.att.com, in dist/sam/bundle.z. watch that space for updated versions. there is a mailing list for sam users; requests to <sam-fans-request@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu>. a set of extensions which augment the mouse activity with the keyboard is available from uxc.cso.uiuc.edu in pub/sam/samx1.0.shar. innovative solutions (505-883-4252; or brian zimbelman, is!brian@bbx.basis.com) publishes the user-configurable motif-based xamine qualix offers a product. information: info@qualix.com or 800-245-unix (415-572-0200). typex is a motif-based editor available for several systems. information: amcad research, 408-867-5705, fax -6209. wordperfect offers an x-based version of wordperfect 5.1 for several workstations. information: 801-222-5300 or 800-451-5151. xmh, an x interface to mh, is distributed with the x11 release. xmail is an x-based window interface to berkeley-style mail handlers; it is styled primarily after the sunview mailtool application and builds on most unix systems. the current release [1/92] is 1.4, available in the mit x11r5 contrib tape and from export and uunet. info: jeff markham, markham@cadence.com. mmh (my mail handler), a motif interface to the mh mail handler, is available from ftp.eos.ncsu.edu (152.1.9.25) in pub/bill.tar.z; it is bundled with the ted editor, which it uses for composing messages. motif 1.1 is required; if you don't have it, look for dec and sparc executables in the same place. information and problems to: erik scott, escott@eos.ncsu.edu. [1/92] the andrew toolkit supports the andrew message system; it is available from export and many other x archives and from emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu (128.2.30.62), or send email to susan+@andrew.cmu.edu. release 5.1 became available 2 june 92. you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software; try "finger help@atk.itc.cmu.edu" for help. xmailtool is an xaw-based interface to a bsd-style mail reader; version 2.0 was released 9/92. information: bob kierski, bobo@cray.com or 612-683-5874. cem is a motif-based mailer using standard mailbox formats; it is on nelson.tx.ncsu.edu in pub/cem. information: sam moore (sam_moore@ncsu.edu). also: alfalfa software offers poste, a unix-based mailer that has motif- and command-based interfaces. it includes support for multimedia enclosures, and supports both the internet and x.400 mail standards. information: info@alfalfa.com, +1 617-497-2922. z-code software offers z-mail for most unix systems; binaries support both tty and motif interfaces. the mailer includes a csh-like scripting language for customizing and extending mail capabilities. information: info@z-code.com, +1 415 499-8649. several vendors' systems include x-based mailers. dec offers dxmail; sun offers an x-based mailtool; sco (info@sco.com) includes scomail in its open desktop product. several integrated office-productivity tools include mailers: the aster*x office integration tools from applix (1-800-8applix, ma: 508-870-0300) include a mailer. xpic is an object-oriented drawing program. it supports multiple font styles and sizes and variable line widths; there are no rotations or zooms. xpic is quite suitable as an interactive front-end to pic, though the xpic-format produced can be converted into postscript. (the latest version is on the r4 contrib tape in clients/xpic.) xfig (by brian v. smith (bvsmith@lbl.gov)) is an object-oriented drawing program supporting compound objects. the xfig format can be converted to postscript or other formats. recent versions are on the r5 contrib tape or on export in /contrib/r5fixes (version 2.1.6 [11/92]). idraw supports numerous fonts and various line styles and arbitrary rotations. it supports zoom and scroll and color draws and fills. the file format is a postscript dialect. it can import tiff files. distributed as a part of the interviews c++ toolkit (current release 3.1, from interviews.stanford.edu) . a version of robert forsman's (thoth@lightning.cis.ufl.edu) xscribble, an 8-bit paint program for x, is now on ftp.cis.ufl.edu in pub/thoth/. [2/93] xpaint is available from ftp.ee.lbl.gov as xpaint.tar.z. a rewrite, xpaint 2.0, by david koblas (koblas@netcom.com) was released 2/93 as xpaint2pl3.tar.z. xpaint is a bitmap/pixmap editing tool. a new openwindows postscript-based graphical editor named 'ice' is now [2/91] available for anonymous ftp from internet host lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu (129.236.10.30). ice (image composition environment) is an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing. (it may require openwindows and sun c++ 2.0.) tgif by william cheng (william@oahu.cs.ucla.edu) is available from most uucp sites and also from export and from cs.ucla.edu. it is frequently updated; version 2.12-patch18 was released 3/93. the "pixmap" program (info: colas@sa.inria.fr) for creating pixmaps is on the r5 contrib tape; it resembles the bitmap client. version 2.1 is now available. [11/92] although metacard is not generally classified as a paint program, a full 24-bit color image editor is built into the program, which can be used for light image editing and for producing color icons (info@metacard.com). metacard is available via anonymous ftp from ftp.metacard.com, csn.org, or 128.138.213.21. pixt by j. michael flanery produces xpm output. also: dxpaint is a bitmap-oriented drawing program most like macpaint; it's good for use by artists but commonly held to be bad for drawing figures or drafting. dxpaint is part of dec's ultrix release. framemaker has some draw capabilities. [4/90] bbn/slate from bbn software products includes a full-featured draw and paint program with object grouping and multiple patterns; multiple x platforms. (617-873-5000 or slate-offer@bbn.com). [11/90] dux ta-dah!, 1-800-543-4999 islandgraphics offers islanddraw, islandpaint, islandpresent. info: 415-491-1000. corel draw, 613-728-8200; ported to x by prior data sciences 800-267-2626 arts&letters composer, 214-661-8960 ficor autograph, 513-771-4466 openwindows includes the olpixmap editor. sco odt includes the scopaint editor. hp vue includes the vueicon editor. several integrated office-productivity tools include draw/paint capabilities: the aster*x office integration tools from applix (1-800-8applix, ma: 508-870-0300) include draw/paint capabilities. [thanks in part to stephen j. byers (af997@cobcs1.cummins.com) and to j. daniel smith (dsmith@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com)] david b. lewis faq%craft@uunet.uu.net "just the faqs, ma'am." -- joe friday david b. lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual, inc. day: dbl@visual.com evening: david%craft@uunet.uu.net 
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 try this: #include <stdio.h> #include <x11/xlib.h> #include <x11/xutil.h> display *dpy; int screen; xcolor *xclrs,*xclrp; xid cmap; int cells,i,j,red,green,blue,got; main() dpy = xopendisplay(null); screen = defaultscreen(dpy); cells = displaycells(dpy,screen); cmap = xcreatecolormap(dpy,rootwindow(dpy,screen),defaultvisual(dpy,screen),1); xclrs = (xcolor *)malloc(cells * sizeof(*xclrs)); xclrp = xclrs; for (i=0; i<cells; i++) { xclrp->pixel = i; xclrp->flags = 7; xclrp++; }; xquerycolors(dpy,defaultcolormap(dpy,screen),xclrs,cells); xstorecolors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells); xinstallcolormap(dpy,cmap); got = 1; while(got) { xclrp = xclrs; got = 0; for(i=0; i<cells; i++) { if(xclrp->red < 65000) {xclrp->red += 256; got = 1;}; if(xclrp->green < 65000) {xclrp->green +=256; got=1;}; if(xclrp->blue < 65000) {xclrp->blue +=256; got=1;}; xclrp ++; xstorecolors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells); /* xinstallcolormap(dpy,cmap); */ got = 1; while(got) { xclrp = xclrs; got = 0; for(i=0; i<cells; i++) { if(xclrp->red > 256) {xclrp->red -= 256; got = 1;}; if(xclrp->green > 256) {xclrp->green -=256; got=1;}; if(xclrp->blue > 256) {xclrp->blue -=256; got=1;}; xclrp ++; xstorecolors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells); /* xinstallcolormap(dpy,cmap); */ it will work on any pseudocolor xserver. (hopefully :) +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 i am new to x programming, so please bear with me.... i am trying to have a dialog box that returns it's value upon the user entering a new value and hitting the <return> key. (don't want to have a "done" button). the piece of code below will work if i exclude the xtnvalue argument but will not work as is. can someone shed some light on this or suggest a better way? ultimately i will have several areas active at the same time to allow a user to modify parameters in the program. thanks for your help, karen rogers rogerskm@pluto.es.dupont.com ######### code starts here ################ void doit() printf("entered the doit function\n"); exit(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; widget toplevel; widget outer; xtappcontext app_con; widget samples; arg args[3]; static xtactionsrec key_actions[]= {"doit", doit}, toplevel = xtvaappinitialize(&app_con, "test", null, 0, &argc, argv, null, null); outer = xtcreatemanagedwidget( "paned", panedwidgetclass, toplevel, null, zero); xtappaddactions(app_con, key_actions, xtnumber(key_actions)); xtsetarg(args[0], xtnlabel, "enter value"); xtsetarg(args[1], xtnvalue, "0"); samples = xtcreatemanagedwidget("samples", dialogwidgetclass,outer,args,2); xtoverridetranslations(samples, xtparsetranslationtable("<key>return: doit()")); xtrealizewidget(toplevel); xtappmainloop(app_con); 
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 does anyone have any information on joining the x consortium ? what are the costs, what are the benefits, who should i contact ? thanks 
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 : what has this got to do with comp.windows.x? i agree that this is a side track, but it is funny that i skip so many other articles (threads) but i couldn't resist reading this one. my beliefs, opinions, and expressions are strictly my own and do not represent or reflect any official or unofficial policies or attitudes of any other person or organization.... but. i have heard that ford motor company has (had) a recruiting bias toward engineers and away from computer science graduates. the reasoning is supposedly to better meet long range personnel requirements. this is evidenced by the large number of cs people who are employed via contracts and are not brought on board except in special circumstances. this is a generalization which obviously doesn't always hold true, but there are statistics. furthermore, most "software engineering" at ford gets done by electrical engineers. i know of 2 univerities that have merged the computer science department and the electrical engineering so that you can get a computer degree which qualifies you for much more than programming. but since my beliefs and opinions are merely figments of my distorted imagination i suppose i should keep it to myself. 
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 can somebody point me to source code for dumping the contents of an x-window into a color postscript file? i have written an app which brings up an x-window, and i want (at the click of the mouse) to dump the window into a postscript file. jeff haferman internet: haferman@icaen.uiowa.edu department of mechanical engineering dod 0186 bmwmoa 44469 ama 460140 the university of iowa iowa city, ia 52242 '76 r90s i use xwd and xwd2ps. to do it from within a program i use xwd -id xxxxx where xxxxx is the window id obtained from xtwindow(widget). | raju gurung, i.t. 109, i.t. building, dept. of electrical eng., | | university of manchester, oxford rd, manchester, u.k. | 
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 i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you < duvvuri@cs.odu.edu > 
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 what i want to be able to do is to set the cursor color to the same as the forground color that is set for that xterm. from the man page..... -cr color this option specifies the color to use for text cur- sor. the default is to use the same foreground <--- color that is used for text. <--- however this doesnt seem to be the case, it appears to default to black or to whatever xterm*cursorcolor is set to. feel free to point me at the relevant fm or whatever, 
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 i am in the process of making the decision whether i should write c++ wrappers for motif myself or use motif++ or interviews. though i have downloaded the tar files, i fail to see any documentation. i have two questions: 1) if you have used these or similar c++sy toolkits what has been your experience? 2) where do i find reference books /documentation for them? any and all input will be greatly appreciated. /unmesh 
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 xtici worked for my system. i'm using x11r5 pl 17 clientside only on a dec 5000/240 on ultrix 4.3 may be you have a serious floatingpoint compilation problem ? +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 can anyone recomend a good book or article on inter-client communications besides i.c.c.m.? i've looked everywhere i can and it seems everyone tells you how to do it but nobody shows you how. o'reilly has no examples, iccm has no examples, asente & swick give no examples - in fact most of the books i've looked at, if they discuss icc at all, simply give a condensed version of the iccm and then refer you to the iccm. i did find one example of how to use atoms and properties in young's book and five hours after i bought young's book i had my applications talking to each other. i am not sure, however, if thats the best way. i'd like to stay independent of unix so pipes and/or sockets probably aren't the way to go. but within x one can also use messages, the clipboard, and perhaps window groups. i need a text that discusses the various methods, discusses which method is best for which purpose, and gives examples. without examples it's all just words. thanks in advance 
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 does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c++ code elegantly with teleuse, uim/x / interface architect generated code? source would be great, but any suggestions are welcome. alsys has produced a paper outlining how to use c++ with teleuse. you can get a copy from your local sales rep or call us at (619)457-2700. as mentioned, it is very straight forward using the dialog language (similar to visual basic). tom erickson alsys tne@world.std.com 67 south bedford street burlington, ma 01803 
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 you are right to be going motif rather than openlook. sun has just recently seen the light and dumped their commitment to openlook. in the announcement they stated they have no future plans for devguide. this is incorrect. sun has made no such claim regarding devguide, and as manager of the devguide engineering group i can state with authority that work on devguide is continuing apace. we had quite a strong show of interest from the devguide user community at last week's solaris developer's conference. devguide is being advocated not only as a valuable future builder tool, but as an important bit of transition technology that will help sustain current customers and facilitate their migration to the cose desktop environment. if you have specific questions about devguide availability, etc., you can contact tali aben, our devguide product marketing person, at (415) 336-3536. david bryant devguide manager 
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 i've been using the xmgraph widget that's been floating around and i noticed the performance is significantly better using gadgets, perhaps even 100% faster. i had heard in an old programming course that gadgets were no longer any benefit to performance, and that it's just as well to use widgets everywhere. interesting, i'd like to know why. but try it again on a single ethernet with 100 x terminals on it, and i think you'll find it much slower. adrian nye o'reilly and associates 
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 |> in the xlib programming manual (o'rielly associates) it is pointed out |> that routines for drawing splines is not included in xlib, but extensions |> are publicly available. i need spline routines which work within the x |> environment. |> i have previously posted a similar request and got two responses, both |> directing me to the interviews package at interviews.stanford.edu. i |> got it, but it is too much. it looks like too much work to try to |> identify, extract and modify relevant components. i am looking for |> code that is not encumbered by a complex and extensive framework which |> is beyond our needs. we just need the spline "extensions" to the xlib. look in xfig. it has two types of spline algorithms and is relatively simple. xfig is available from export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib/r5fixes/xfig-patches/xfig.2.1.6.tar.z brian v. smith (bvsmith@lbl.gov) lawrence berkeley laboratory i don't speak for lbl; they don't pay me enough for that. 
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 i hear george bush (remember him?) will receive an honors degree from some kuwaiti university for contributing to certain kuwaiti interests not too long ago. do you think it would add much to his resume? ;-) 
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 archive-name: x-faq/speedups last-modified: 1993/4/15 how to maximize the performance of x -- monthly posting compiled by art mulder (art@cs.ualberta.ca) more ram, faster cpu's, more disk space, faster ethernet... these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation. well, more hardware isn't always an option, and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity. this "faq" list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation, without purchasing more hardware. performance is a highly subjective issue. the individual user must balance `speed' versus `features' in order to come to a personal decision. therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts. this document is specifically concerned with x. there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation. however, they are outside the scope of this document. [ people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance, might want to look at the o'reilly nutshell handbook "system performance tuning" by mike loukides. i'm about 25% of the way through reading it, and it looks like a well-written comprehensive treatment of system performance. i'm unaware of any other similar books. --ed.] table of contents 0. introduction & administrivia 1. what about the "other x faq"? 2. window managers 3. the x server which server? locking the server into ram? starting your server about the resources file ! define your display properly 4. clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client 5. miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what!? 6. other sources of information 7. author & notes ! = changed since last issue. * = new since last issue. introduction & administrivia this document is posted each month, on or around the 15th, to the usenet news groups comp.windows.x, news.answers, and comp.answers. if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old (see the "last-modified" date above) you should probably locate the latest edition, since the information may be outdated. if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and/or your site does not receive them and/or this article has already expired, you can retrieve this faq from an archive site. there exist several usenet faq archive sites. to find out more about them and how to access them, please see the "introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" posting in news.answers. the main faq archive is at rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]. this document can be found there in /pub/usenet/news.answers/x-faq/speedups. if you do not have access to anonymous ftp, you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu with the command "send usenet/news.answers/x-faq/speedups" in the message body. what about the "other x faq"? david b. lewis (faq%craft@uunet.uu.net) maintains the informative and well written "comp.windows.x frequently asked questions" document. its focus is on general x information, while this faq concentrates on performance. the comp.windows.x faq does address the issue of speed, but only with regards to the x server. the gist of that topic seems to be: "use x11r5, it is faster than r4". (please see the x faq for complete details). window managers there are a lot of window managers out there, with lots of different features and abilities. the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features. at this point, most respondents have agreed upon "twm" as the best candidate for a speedy window manager. a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger, is turning off unnecessary things like "zooming" and "opaque move". also, if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner, you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows. joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) i've found that a good font for tiling is 7x13 (aka: -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--13-100-100-100-c-70-iso8859-1 ). it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun (1152x900 screen) and still get two 80 column terminal windows side-by-side on the display with no overlap. other font suggestions will be accepted. the x server which server? make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware. if you have a monochrome monitor, use a monochrome x11 server. on my monochrome sun, i haven't noticed much difference between the xsun (colour) server and xsunmono, however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about 800k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging. [ thanks to: jonny farringdon (j.farringdon@psychol.ucl.ac.uk), michael salmon (michael.salmon@eos.ericsson.se) ] how your server was compiled can also make a difference. jeff law (law@schirf.cs.utah.edu) advises us that on a sun system, x should be compiled with gcc (version 2.*) or with the unbundled sun compiler. you can expect to get "*very* large speedups in the server" by not using the bundled sunos compiler. i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high-quality commercial compilers on the market. locking the server into ram? has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged? eg: via a call to plock(). does this help performance at all? i've had one inquiry on this topic, and a few pointers to the plock() function call, but no hard evidence from someone who's tried it. i am not in a position to give it a try. [thanks to: eric c claeys (ecc@eperm.att.com), danny backx (db@sunbim.be), juan d. martin (juando@cnm.us.es) ] starting your server joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) : if you start up a lot of clients in your .xsession or whatever, sleep for a second or two after launching each one. after i changed my .xclients script to do this, logging in actually took *less* time... we have a heavily loaded system without much core, though. this sounds crazy, but i have confirmed that it works! warner losh (imp@solbourne.com) provided me with a good explanation of why this works, which i have summarized here: when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections. a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts. this process touches a large number of pages. any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu, and more importantly, memory. if you put a sleep in there, you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up. similarly, there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts: toolkits registering widgets, resources being fetched, programs initializing state and "databases" and so forth. all this activity is typically memory intensive. once this initialization is done ("the process has reached a steady state"), the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages. by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your .xinitrc , you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation's limited resources this is most definitely a "your mileage may vary" situation, as there are so many variables to be considered: available ram, local swap space, load average, number of users on your system, which clients you are starting, etc. currently in my .xinitrc i have a situation like: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 1; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & i've experimented with: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 2; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 3; exec xterm ) & (sleep 4; exec xterm ) & i've even tried: (sleep 2; exec start_x_clients_script ) & and then in start_x_clients_script i had: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 1; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & [ the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my .xinitrc, and had settled down into a "steady state" before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched. ] all of these yielded fairly comparable results, and so i just stuck with my current setup, for its simplicity. you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you. loading fonts takes time and ram. if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use, you'll get speed increases in load-up time. one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts (one small, one large, one roman, whatever suits you) and configure all your clients -- or at least all your heavily used clients -- to use only those few fonts. client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server. this will also conserve server resources, since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server. [ farrell mckay (fbm@ptcburp.ptcbu.oz.au), joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) ] eg: my main xterm font is 7x13, so i also have twm set up to use 7x13 in all it's menus and icons etc. twm's default font is 8x13. since i don't normally use 8x13, i've eliminated one font from my server. oliver jones (oj@roadrunner.pictel.com): keep fonts local to the workstation, rather than loading them over nfs. if you will make extensive use of r5 scalable fonts, use a font server. about the resources file keep your .xresources / .xdefaults file small. saves ram and saves on server startup time. joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) one suggestion: in your .xdefaults (.xresources) file, try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications. for example: *reversevideo: true then, separate your resources into individual client-specific resource files. for example: $home/lib/app-defaults. in your .login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath: setenv xuserfilesearchpath $home/lib/app-defaults/%n [ the "comp.windows.x frequently asked questions" faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work. --ed.] so, when xterm launches, it loads its resources from .../app-defaults/xterm. xdvi finds them in .../app-defaults/xdvi, and so on and so forth. note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource-file naming pattern. you can check in your system app-defaults directory (often: /usr/x11r5/lib/x11/app-defaults/) to find the proper name, and then name your personal resource files with the same name. this is all documented in the xt specification (pg 125 & 666). [thanks to: kevin samborn (samborn@mtkgc.com), michael urban (urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov), and mike long (mikel@ee.cornell.edu). kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers.] this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits: - easier to maintain / more usable. - fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource_manager property. as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker, since it doesn`t have to load all your resources. - applications only process their own resources, never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them. it also has drawbacks: - the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up. this doesn't seem to make that much of a performance difference, and you might consider this a huge boon to usability. if you are modifying an application's resource database, you just need to re-run the application without having to "xrdb" again. - xrdb will by default run your .xdefaults file through cpp. when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs, they will not. watch out for this!! i had c style comments in my .xdefaults file, which cpp stripped out. when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources. xt did *not* provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files, it simply, silently, aborted processing the resource file. the loss of preprocessing (which can be very handy, e.g. ``#ifdef color'' ...) is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management. - you may also run into some clients which break the rules. for example, neither emacs (18.58.3) nor xvt (1.0) will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in .xdefaults. - when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored, your client will not find its resources. loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources. casey leedom (casey@gauss.llnl.gov) a possible compromise suggestion that i have (and am planning on trying) is to put resources for all my heavily used clients (eg: xterm) into my .xdefaults file, and to use the "separate resources files" method for clients that i seldom use. define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server. in that situation, rather than setting your display environment variable to "<hostname>:0.0", where <hostname> is the name of your workstation, you should set your display variable to "unix:0.0" or ":0.0". by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests. [thanks to patrick j horgan (pjh70@ras.amdahl.com)] see the _display names_ section of the x(1) man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name. "i don't think it's stock mit, but (at least) data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn't set specially." rob sartin (88opensi!sartin@uunet.uu.net) [jody goldberg (jody@algorithmics.com) sent me an xlib patch to change stock r5 to use local communication even if display is not properly set. i don't want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non-mit patches and so have elected not to include it here. hopefully mit will apply this minor (~8 lines) patch themselves. in the meantime, if you want to try it yourself, email jody. --ed.] if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running. think also about the _kind_ of programs you are running. for example: is there a smaller clock program than xclock? unfortunately, i haven't really noticed that programs advertise how large they are, so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word. [ suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients (eg: xclock, xterm, xbiff) are welcome. --ed.] i've received some contradictory advice from people, on the subject of x client programs. some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based, since xt, xaw and other toolkits are rather large. others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries. in this case, using a non-xt (for example) client program may actually _increase_ the amount of ram consumed. the upshot of all this seems to be: don't mix toolkits. that is, try and use just athena clients, or just xview clients (or just motif clients, etc). if you use more than one, then you're dragging in more than one toolkit library. know your environment, and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment. [thanks to: rob sartin (88opensi!sartin@uunet.uu.net), duncan sinclair (sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk | sinclair@uk.ac.gla.dcs) ] a better clock for x 1) xcuckoo suggested by: duncan sinclair (sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk) available: on export.lcs.mit.edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of *another* program. saves screen real estate. 2) mclock suggested by: der mouse (mouse@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu) available: larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (132.206.1.1) in /x/mclock.shar non xt-based. extensively configurable. it can be made to look very much like mit oclock, or mostly like xclock purely by changing of course, the ultimate clock --- one that consumes no resources, and takes up no screen real estate --- is the one that hangs on your wall. a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm: | abandon all hope, ye who enter here | this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution. ugly maybe, but at my site it's still the most used. i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many, if not most sites. laziness? isn't there a better terminal emulator available? see below. if you must use xterm, you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage. [ oliver jones (oj@roadrunner.pictel.com), jonny farringdon (j.farringdon@psychol.ucl.ac.uk) ] 1) xvt suggested by: richard hesketh (rlh2@ukc.ac.uk) : available: export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib/xvt-1.0.tar.z "...if you don't need all the esoteric features of xterm, then get hold of xvt ... it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog! " this was written as a partial 'clone' of xterm. you don't have to rename your resources, as xvt pretends to be xterm. in it's current version, you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm. i've heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature, but i've not found any update (march 1993): i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin (brian.warkentine@eng.sun.com) regarding xvt. he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm. for instance, xvt may initialize slightly faster, but compare scrolling speed (try this quickie benchmark: /bin/time dd if=/etc/termcap bs=40) and see which program can scroll faster. also, while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements (we don't have any hard numbers here, does anyone else?) shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm's paging requirements are not that major. as an experiment, he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm, but it made little difference, since if you never use it, it never gets brought into memory. so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm. in summary? caveat emptor, your mileage may vary. if you can provide some hard data, i'd like to see it. specifically: how much ram each occupies, how much swap each needs, relative speed of each 2) mterm suggested by: der mouse (mouse@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu) available: larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (132.206.1.1) in /x/mterm.src/mterm.ball-o-wax. "i also have my own terminal emulator. its major lack is scrollback, but some people like it anyway." tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster. from scott barman (scott@asd.com) comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets: i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets, i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes, particularly the initial one in the field. examining the what was going on with xscope i found it. it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non-zero and the focus is on a text field widget (or even just a text widget) the i-beam cursor will blink. every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets, the widget code is making a request to the server (copyarea). the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to 0. it is not noticeable on a 40mhz sparc, but it does make a little difference on a [slower system]. this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas. consider your heavily used clients, are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don't use large bitmaps (gif's, etc) as root window backgrounds. - the more complicated your root window bitmap, the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows (or redraw, etc) - these take up ram, and cpu power. i work on a sun sparc and i'm conscious of performance issues, i can't comprehend it when i see people with a 4mb sun 3/60 running xphoon as their root window. i'll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation. - if you're anything like me, you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients, and so rarely see the root window anyway. [ thanks to qiang alex zhao (azhao@cs.arizona.edu) for reminding me of this one. --ed.] a quicker mouse using xset, you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse. i use "xset m 3 10" in my .xinitrc file, which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist. see the xset man page for further ideas and information. hint: sometimes you may want to *slow down* your mouse tracking for fine work. to cover my options, i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager. e.g. (for twm) : menu "mouse settings" { "mouse settings:" f.title " very fast" ! "xset m 7 10 &" " normal (fast)" ! "xset m 3 10 &" " system default (un-accelerated)" ! "xset m default &" " glacial" ! "xset m 0 10 &" programming thoughts joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) : to speed up applications that you're developing, there are tons of things you can do. some that stick out: - for motif programs, don't set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons, labels, lists, et. al.; use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest-level manager widget. again, stick to as few fonts as possible. - better yet, don't use motif at all. it's an absolute pig. - don't create and destroy widgets on the fly. try to reuse them. (this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits, too.) - use a line width of 0 in gcs. on some servers this makes a huge - compress and collapse multiple expose events. this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable francois staes (frans@kiwi.uia.ac.be) : just a small remark: i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily. they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc, but i didn't find the time yet. i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free, and the differences were indeed very noticeable ( somewhat 5 times faster) [ any confirmation on this from anyone? --ed.] andre' beck (andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de) : - unnecessary noexpose events. most people use xcopyarea/xcopyplane as fastest blit routines, but they forget to reset graphics_exposures in the gc used for the blits. this will cause a noexpose event every blit, that, in most cases, only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it's event-loop again and again. - thousands of xchangegc requests. this "gfx context switching" is also seen in most handcoded x-apps, where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again. xt uses a definitely better mechanism, by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters. this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection (by moving it toward the client startup phase). say what!? some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first: david b. lewis (by day: dbl@osf.org, by night: david%craft@uunet.uu.net) : how about this: swap displays with someone else. run all your programs on the other machine and display locally; the other user runs off your machine onto the other display. goal: reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server. i'm not in a situation where i can easily try this, but i have received the following confirmation... michael salmon (michael.salmon@eos.ericsson.se): i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference. i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion. this helps a lot on my poor little ss1+ with only 16 mb, it was essential when i only had 8 mb. casey leedom (casey@gauss.llnl.gov) : [the x11 server and the client are] competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine. not really a major problem, except that the x11 client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing. timothy h panton (thp@westhawk.uucp) : firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu's are mostly idle, x's cpu usage is bursty. so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu-intensive at the same time is small. if they are not then you get twice the cpu+memory available for your the second factor is that context switches are expensive, using 2 cpu's halves them, you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network, but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network (typically 20k vs 4k for a pipe), allowing even fewer context switches. other sources of information volume 8 in o'reilly's x window system series, ``x window system administrator's guide'' is a book all x administrator's should read. adrian nye (adrian@ora.com): a lot more tips on performance are in the paper "improving x application performance" by chris d. peterson and sharon chang, in issue 3 of the x resource. an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition 1992 conference proceedings. this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers. author & notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder (art@cs.ualberta.ca) suggestions, corrections, or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted. layout suggestions and comments (spelling mistak's too! :-) are also welcome. currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions. if you do not want to be credited, please tell me. speedup-x-faq is copyright (c) 1993 by arthur e. mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don't try to make money off it, or pretend that you wrote it. ...art mulder ( art@cs.ualberta.ca ) | "do not be conformed to this world, department of computing science | but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta, edmonton, canada | of your mind, ..." romans 12:2 
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 |> aab> <some deleted> |> >if you |> >look closely at motif, you will see that it is just ms-windows |> >with more eye-pleasing color and texture. the only real difference |> >is that an ms application window can "contain" other toplevel children, |> >while a motif application window "launches" its children out onto the |> >desktop. |> aab> to those of you familiar with both guis, is this correct? my experience |> aab> with x makes me think that this msw behavior is easily duplicated |> aab> with x11. but i don't know msw... |> another important difference is that msw doesn't have any window that |> handle sophisticated geometry management (like xmform). also, i believe |> that in windows 3.x you're limited to 64k of resources (windows, menus, |> icons, etc.). imho this whole discussion named "motif looks like ms-windogs" is totally stupid. the only thing remotely influenced here can be the motif window manager, that features an arrangement of buttons and menus somewhat similiar to this of the ms-w windowmanaging agent, however its name is. but mwm is only a small part of motif, in fact, mwm and motif can work without each other, and if one doesn't like mwms outfit for some reason, he switches to another windowmanager. all this doesn't influence motif, which is a toolkit of widgets to write applications, and this toolkit is imho uncomparable to ms-w, because it is much more wellorganized and features alot of goodies more than the ms-w interface. you cannot say "a porsche looks like a vw käfer" only because they have the wheel and the gear at the same position. motif and ms-w are complete different worlds, only one element of the motif world has some gear and wheel at the same position as ms-w. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 has an x version of whois been written out there? if so, where can i ftp it from? thanks. jesse w. asher (901)762-6000 varco-pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave., suite 400, memphis, tn 38119 internet: jessea@vpbuild.vp.com uucp: vpbuild!jessea 
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 ...let me point out that both gui-based word-processors and text-based formatters both have a language; one happens to be mouse- and action-based, and the other symbol-based. true, but that's beside the point. this is a fact about an abstract model of what the gui users are doing, not about what they actually *are* doing. this abstract model is only apparent from the perpective of a *programmer* of the system. (nb: some users may see it, too, but only when they put aside the work at hand and start thinking like a programmer.) i'm not saying that the programmer's perspective is evil or stunted. after all, that's what i do, too! i am saying that ui designers must carefully distinguish between the user/programmer conceptual models, and they must ultimately serve the user of the system, not the builder of the system. i don't recall the actual stats, but something like 1 in 5 people can be categorized as a "symbol manipulator". it would be interesting to know more about the meaning and basis for this claim. at any rate, i don't think this is evidence that 20% of users think like programmers. bankers, financial analysts, structural engineers --- these are all people whose work you could characterize as primarily symbol manipulation. but what they do is not programming, and programming is not required to do what they do. to restate my previous point: yes, users want to build their own solutions; no, they do not want to do programming to accomplish this. 
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<answer instance="comp.windows.x66874" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 no, the r5 xlib is not thread-safe. but we are working on it. see my article in the x resource, issue 5. consortium members will have a multi-threaded version soon, and it will be part of r6. there is a multi threaded xlib version written. do an archie search for mt-xlib: host export.lcs.mit.edu location: /contrib directory drwxr-xr-x 512 jul 30 1992 mt-xlib location: /contrib/mt-xlib-1.1 file -rw-r--r-- 106235 jan 21 14:02 mt-xlib-xhib92.ps.z file -rw-r--r-- 1658123 jan 21 14:03 mt-xlib.tar.z location: /contrib/mt-xlib file -rw-r--r-- 106235 jul 30 1992 mt-xlib-xhib92.ps.z file -rw-r--r-- 1925529 jul 30 1992 mt-xlib.tar.z et.al. "overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out." -the nine billion names of god "yes, you're very smart. shut up." -in "the princess bride" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66878">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66878" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i currently use a window manager called ctwm which is very similar to hp's vuewm. (i.e. it has multiple workspaces). is there a motif based window manager that has this same feature and is not a memory pig like vue? michael l coe | "a mind is a terrible thing." laboratory of applied logic | university of idaho | coe@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu | coe861@snake.cs.uidaho.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66879">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66879" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am reposting this because i am not sure my first post ever made it out. i have built and installed x11r5 on my sparcstation 2. my aim is to run the mit x server but retain the openlook window manager. i am sure this is not uncommon, but i just want to make sure that i change and/or delete everything that i need to. for instance, i can start xdm in rc.local, but how do i get rid of xnews? the openlook window manager source is available on the mit contrib tapes or from export.lcs.mit.edu .i would suggest building this too, rather than using the version from openwindows. it is olwm v3. richard gooch.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66881">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66881" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am trying to figure out the current c++ toolkit "directions". more simply, i'd like to know which c++ toolkit to "bet on" for use in a new long term project. i have the same problem. i have looked at motif++, wwl, interviews, gina++, and a few variations on the above. i've also done a cursory examination of rogue wave's view.h++. i like view.h++'s abstractions best of all of the toolkits i mentioned, but the resulting code looks little like motif, and i have little confidence that this software will catch on or otherwise result in significant longevity for my code. gina++ allows you to write code which looks a great deal like motif and also makes interesting use of inheritance, but the resulting code is almost too motif-like, and is certainly not significantly less verbose than equivalent c code. interviews looks promising, but i haven't found a free version with motif support, and i'm not confident how widely interviews with motif support will be adopted, and what (if any) specific motif support will be available over time. the other libraries produce code which is less motif-like, but which does not make sufficient use of the features of c++ to simplify my coding task. at this point, my inclination is to write my motif manipulation routines in c, and invoke those routines from my c++ code using simple abstractions suited to my specific task. later, if osf or some credible standards-setting body comes up with a c++ interface to motif, i will change to that. it does me no goo to write in c++ if my choice of interfaces leaves me with code which leaves me tied to an abstraction which is not consistent with the industry directions. it's better to take a standard if inferior solution for now than to go with a slgihtly superior approach which will leave me with both useless code and useless skills a few years from now. views.h++ is the only library i'd consider right now, but in our environment, we'd end up spending nearly $5000 to use it, and i can't justify it when it's likely to cause short-term productivity decreases as we learn the new abstraction, and is unlikely to be a sufficiently long-lived solution for us to reap the benefits at the high end of the j curve. brad daniels ` | "if money can't buy happiness, daniels@neosoft.com | i guess i'll have to rent it." i don't work for neosoft, and | - weird al yenkovic don't speak for my employer. | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66885">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66885" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to set up an ipx for another group. i copied all the x stuff that i compiled on my 4/280 (which runs sunos 4.1.1) using gcc 2.1, and most things run just fine. however, i did find a couple of bugs, and when i try to recompile those clients on the ipx (which runs 4.1.3), i get ld: undefined symbol i know that i can include libxext and get rid of those messages, but i can't figure out why i get them on the ipx and not on the 4/280. any ideas? ned danieley (ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu) basic arrhythmia laboratory box 3140, duke university medical center durham, nc 27710 (919) 660-5111 or 660-5100 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66887">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66887" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 no doubt this is an old question, but i didn't find the answer in the faqs i could find, so - here goes: i have a sunview application that i want to convert to x (openlook, motiv, whatever). i remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools to accomplish this task. a) is that so? b) are they public domain? c) any good, i.e. d) advantages over reimplementing the interface myself? -- alex 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66891">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66891" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi xperts, some simple questions for you: i've seen a lot of different terms, which seem to mean the same thing. who can give an exact definition what these terms mean: -) multi-screen -) multi-headed -) multi-display -) x-server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens/displays a single server can handle (in an articel a read something about an upper limit of 12) ? how is the capability called, if i want to move the cursor from one screen/display to another. any hints welcome. thanks, rainer. rainer hochreiter | telephone: +43 (1) 89100 / 3961 elin-energieanwendung gesmbh | telefax : +43 (1) 89100 / 3387 penzingerstr. 76 | a-1141 wien, austria/europe | e-mail : rainer@elin.co.at 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66892">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66892" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hello motif world, a few days ago i posted my announcement for an update of motif++. i got several requests to send the bindings per e-mail, and i know of several people who have been using motif++, and there are probably a number of people i am not aware of who are also using motif++. my question is: how many people 'out there' would be interested to join a mailing-list, where people can ask questions about motif++, swap stories, and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings. this would benefit the user-community, as well as give me more insight in what people would like to see added to motif++. motif++ is still very much a voluntary project, and this way i can make a list of priorities, in what order things should be added, or if you're interested in joining such a mailing-list, please take the time to reply to this message, and tell me so. when there is sufficient interest, say about 20 people or more, a mailing-list will be set up at my site, and i will post the announcement of the newly-created list to this and other newsgroups. ronald van loon | in theory, there is no difference (rvloon@cv.ruu.nl) | between theory and practice. 3dcv group, utrecht | the netherlands | in practice however, there is. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66893">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66893" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am using an x server that provides 3 visuals: pseudocolor 8 bit, truecolor 24 bit and directcolor 24 bit. a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent (which uses the default visual which is tc24). in the xlib reference guide from 'o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow, something like: "in the current implementation of x11: when using a visual other than the parent's, be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating, or else a badmatch occurs." this warning, strangely enough, is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x11r5 guides. however, even if i pass along a suitable colourmap, i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non-default visual. the code looks like this: ------------------ cut here and you'll destroy your crt ---------------- window create_8bit_window_on_truecolour_display(dpy,width,height) display *dpy; int width, height; window win; xvisualinfo vinfo; xsetwindowattributes attr; fprintf(stderr,"opening 8 bit window...\n"); if (!xmatchvisualinfo(dpy,defaultscreen(dpy),8,pseudocolor,&vinfo)) { fprintf(stderr,"your display can't handle 8 bit pseudocolor.\n"); exit(1); fprintf(stderr,"using visual: %x\n",vinfo.visual->visualid); cmap = xcreatecolormap( defaultrootwindow(dpy), vinfo.visual, xsync(dpy,false); xinstallcolormap(dpy,cmap); /* ommision of this line gives same result */ attr.colormap = cmap; win = xcreatewindow( defaultrootwindow(dpy), 10,10, width,height, copyfromparent, /* border width */ 8, /* depth */ inputoutput, /* class */ vinfo.visual, /* visual */ &attr return win; --- cut here and you'll destroy your crt ----- executing this piece of code results in a badmatch error. anybody who knows why? if so, please drop me a line. take care, bram stolk stolk@fwi.uva.nl 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66894">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66894" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 anyone know of any source code i can get to either create window dumps in gif format, or convert an xwd (x window dump) file into a gif? really could be any format i can manipulate in dos, i.e. pcx, bmp, etc. bm155@cleveland.freenet.edu {uucp:rutgers!devon!gizmonic!csthomas} "god bless those pagans..." - h. simpson 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66897">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66897" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs. if it is not, then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66898">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66898" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hello everybody! i have a little question: due to more features (pex, drag&drop) many applications when linked with for example motif 1.2 instead motif 1.1 need more memory in the xserver. x-terminals only have limited memory (normally no swapping possible). so my question: is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver? so one can determine for example whether to start a pex application with the css on client side or on server side (when there is enough memory). please reply via e-mail, i'll summarize! matthias pfuetzner | @work: +49 6151 155-150 | @home: +49 6151 75717 6100 darmstadt, frg | zgdv, wilhelminenstrasse 7 | lichtenbergstrasse 73 pfuetzner@igd.fhg.de, pfuetzner@zgdvda.uucp | keith packard said: r5 is different from r4. that's why we changed the release number :-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66899">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66899" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 has anybody the xswarm enhacemened to use it with more than one wasp? please e-mail me, because i don't read this group any longer. thanks in advance, klaus singvogel --- e-mail: kssingvo@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66900">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66900" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i was wondering if it's possible to change the window icons olwm uses for things like xterm. most of the defaults are pretty lame. any answer (or where i can find one) would be most appreciated. matt clark 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66902">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66902" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> hi, |> i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of |> its childs. if it is not, then how could it be possible to implement a |> rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are |> displayed one in each window? |> hauke if you specify the rootwindow when you are creating your gc. you may use xlib to draw over multiple windows. i have an application that does something similar for rubber banding. curs_move = xcreatefontcursor (disp_data, xc_crosshair); geom_vals.foreground = blck_pixl ^ grey_dark; geom_vals.plane_mask = allplanes; geom_vals.line_width = 0; geom_vals.function = gxxor; geom_vals.subwindow_mode = includeinferiors; evnt_mask= gcforeground | gcplanemask | gclinewidth | gcfunction | gcsubwindowmode; geom_gcon= xcreategc (disp_data, root_iden, evnt_mask, &geom_vals); later i can move the rubber band or bands using the following logic void tselect::move_bands (int delt_xloc, int delt_yloc) /****/ stuff deleted ... xdrawrectangle (disp_data, root_iden, geom_gcon, sele_pntr->rootx, sele_pntr->rooty, sele_pntr->xlnth, sele_pntr->ylnth); undraw old one sele_pntr->papax+= delt_xloc; sele_pntr->papay+= delt_yloc; sele_pntr->rootx+= delt_xloc; sele_pntr->rooty+= delt_yloc; xdrawrectangle (disp_data, root_iden, geom_gcon, sele_pntr->rootx, sele_pntr->rooty, sele_pntr->xlnth, sele_pntr->ylnth); draw new one more stuff deleted hope this helps brian dealy |301-572-8267| it not knowing where it's at dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov | | that's important,it's knowing !uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy | | where it's not at... b.dylan brian dealy |301-572-8267| it not knowing where it's at dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov | | that's important,it's knowing !uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy | | where it's not at... b.dylan 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66905">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66905" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me. the problem is that main_win.win is doing fine, but when i create detail_win.win, it does not receive it's initial expose events until main_win.win receives an event. here are the relevent calls: main_win.win = xcreatesimplewindow (mydisplay, defaultrootwindow(mydisplay), myhint.x, myhint.y, myhint.width, myhint.height, main_win.line_thick, fg, bg); xsetstandardproperties(mydisplay, main_win.win, main_win.text, main_win.text, none, argv, argc, &myhint); main_win.gc = xcreategc (mydisplay, main_win.win, 0, 0); xmapraised (mydisplay, detail_win.win); xmapsubwindows (mydisplay, main_win.win); the event mask for main_win is: pposition | psize | structurenotifymask | exposuremask| keypressmask | enterwindowmask | leavewindowmask; the flags are pposition | psize i then create detail_win.win with the following calls (hints has new values): detail_win.win = xcreatesimplewindow (mydisplay, defaultrootwindow(mydisplay), myhint.x, myhint.y, myhint.width, myhint.height, detail_win.line_thick, fg, bg); xsetstandardproperties(mydisplay, main_win.win, detail_win.text, detail_win.text, none, argv, argc, &myhint); detail_win.gc = xcreategc (mydisplay, detail_win.win, 0, 0); xmapraised (mydisplay, detail_win.win); event mask and flags are identical to main_win's flags and event mask. if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail_win.win are not received until main_win.win receives an event i'd love to hear from them. other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i'm overseeing. thanks for any tips ---> robert rgasch@nl.oracle.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66906">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66906" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me. the problem is that main_win.win is doing fine, but when i create detail_win.win, it does not receive it's initial expose events until main_win.win receives an event. here are the relevent calls: main_win.win = xcreatesimplewindow (mydisplay, defaultrootwindow(mydisplay), myhint.x, myhint.y, myhint.width, myhint.height, main_win.line_thick, fg, bg); xsetstandardproperties(mydisplay, main_win.win, main_win.text, main_win.text, none, argv, argc, &myhint); main_win.gc = xcreategc (mydisplay, main_win.win, 0, 0); xmapraised (mydisplay, detail_win.win); xmapsubwindows (mydisplay, main_win.win); the event mask for main_win is: pposition | psize | structurenotifymask | exposuremask| keypressmask | enterwindowmask | leavewindowmask; the flags are pposition | psize i then create detail_win.win with the following calls (hints has new values): detail_win.win = xcreatesimplewindow (mydisplay, defaultrootwindow(mydisplay), myhint.x, myhint.y, myhint.width, myhint.height, detail_win.line_thick, fg, bg); xsetstandardproperties(mydisplay, main_win.win, detail_win.text, detail_win.text, none, argv, argc, &myhint); detail_win.gc = xcreategc (mydisplay, detail_win.win, 0, 0); xmapraised (mydisplay, detail_win.win); event mask and flags are identical to main_win's flags and event mask. if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail_win.win are not received until main_win.win receives an event i'd love to hear from them. other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i'm overseeing. thanks for any tips ---> robert rgasch@nl.oracle.com ps: the same message was accidentally appended to the "expose events" thread. sorry for any confusion caused. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66909">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66909" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 steve> folks, steve> i'm looking for a public domain x-y plotting package for x. steve> i need basic capabilities (axes, labels, log and linear, &c). steve> it's hard to imagine that someone has not put such a thing steve> together, so i'm hoping to avoid reinventing the wheel. steve> thanks for any leads! steve> steve frysinger your might take a look a plplot. version 4.99c (actually beta v5.0) can be found anonymous ftp from hagar.ph.utexas.edu, in the pub/plplot --mark | mark stucky | email: | | united technologies research center | mark@ardnt1.res.utc.com | | east hartford, ct. |or mbs@rcinet.res.utc.com | | 06108 |or mbs@utrc.res.utc.com | from the readme file of version 4.99c: this is the plplot distribution. plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems, small (micro) and large (super) alike. despite its small size and quickness, it has enough power to satisfy most users, including: standard x-y plots, semilog plots, log-log plots, contour plots, 3d plots, mesh plots, bar charts and pie charts. multiple graphs (of the same or different sizes) may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph. different line styles, widths and colors are supported. a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used. there are almost 1000 characters in the extended character set. this includes four different fonts, the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical, musical, and other symbols. the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects. many different output device drivers are available (system dependent), including a portable metafile format and renderer. the plplot package is freely distributable, but not in the public domain. the plplot source code, except header files and those files explicitly granting permission, may not be used in a commercial software package without consent of the authors. you are allowed and encouraged to include the plplot object library and header files in a commercial package provided that: (1) it is explicitly and prominently stated that the plplot library is freely available, and (2) the full copyrights on the plplot package be displayed somewhere in the documentation for the package. we welcome suggestions on how to improve this code, especially in the form of user-contributed enhancements or bug fixes. if plplot is used in any published papers, please include an acknowledgment or citation of our work, which will help us to continue improving plplot. also, please remember that as plplot is not a commercial product, we cannot be expected to offer the kind of support that a commercial product may. there is great interest in extending plplot and fixing bugs, but the principal authors can only afford to work on it part time. improvements will necessarily focus on those which help us get our work done. plplot is written in c, enabling it to run on many platforms practically without modification. fortran programs may use it transparently; stub routines are provided to handle the c<->fortran interface without any modification of the user program. c programs are required to include the header file "plplot.h"; see the documentation for more details. the main documentation for plplot is in the doc/ directory in the form of several tex files; please consult this for additional information ('latex plotdoc'). unfortunately documentation tends to lag actual improvements to the code, so don't be surprised if some known features are not explained there. consult 'changes.log' to see a list of recent changes. at present, plplot is known to work on the following systems: unix: sunos a/ix hp-ux dg/ux amiga/exec ms-dos os/2 for more information on how to get or use plplot on your system, see: - appendices to the plplot manual - system-specific documentation in the appropriate sys/<system> directory. to become a subscriber to the plplot mailing list, send a request to plplot-request@dino.ph.utexas.edu. plplot is the result of the effort of many people, so it is impractical to list all the contributors. those currently supporting and otherwise responsible for the package in its present form include: maurice lebrun please send all comments, flames, patches, etc, to me. i am responsible for all the plplot kernel development as well as most of the work on the metafile, xwindow, xterm, postscript, tektronix, and amiga drivers. email mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu usmail dr. maurice lebrun institute for fusion studies university of texas austin, tx 78712 geoff furnish please send questions regarding the ms-dos and os/2 drivers to geoff. email furnish@fusion.ph.utexas.edu usmail geoff furnish institute for fusion studies university of texas austin, tx 78712 tony richardson creator of plplot 2.6b, 3.0 please send questions regarding installation of plplot on the next to tony. email amr@egr.duke.edu usmail tony richardson tony richardson 184 electrical engineering 2920 chapel hill road apt. 41-d duke university durham, nc 27707 durham, nc 27706 ph 919-684-5274 ph 919-493-1609 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66914">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66914" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i've got a problem concerning the maximum size of x pixmaps in decwindows. |> i am using a decstation 5000/200 running ultrix v4.2 (rev. 96) system #2 |> and uws v4.2 (rev. 272) (decwindows). our color display has 1280x1024 |> pixels. |> on other hardware (hp, sgi) i am able to allocate much larger pixmaps. |> did anyone have similar problems before or does onyone know how i can |> configre my system to allow for larger pixmaps? |> any suggestins are welcome. please send mail to " haase@igd.fhg.de ". dec does this only for their px and pxg servers, known as 3d accelerators. this boards have local offscreen memory which is limited and slow to handle, thus they set this limit. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66919">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66919" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 where can i get xman source? i would rather get xman for an hp 9000/700, but source will do. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66923">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66923" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i want to compile xdvi and later perhaps emacs 19 on a dec ultrix machine with x installed. unfortunately, xt and xaw libs and headers are missing. how can i get them without having to compile the whole mit distribution ? pleasy reply by email to: viola@yukawa.uni-muenster.de thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66924">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66924" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am using x11r5patch23 with the r5-sunos5 patch posted on export. i did optionally apply the patch.olit. libxmu compiles fine .. when i try to use it with clients (i.e. bmtoa and twm), i get errors ... i can not figure out what is wrong: gcc -fpcc-struct-return -o twm gram.o lex.o deftwmrc.o add_window.o gc.o list.o twm.o parse.o menus.o events.o resize.o util.o version.o iconmgr.o cursor.o icons.o -o2 -r/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib${ld_run_path+\:$ld_run_path} -l../.././lib/xmu -lxmu -l../.././lib/xt -l../.././extensions/lib -l../.././lib/x -l../.././extensions/lib -lxext -l../.././extensions/lib -lxext -l../.././lib/x -lx11 -l/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib -lsocket -lnsl ld: warning: file ../.././extensions/lib/libxext.so: attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext.so undefined first referenced symbol in file xtappsetwarningmsghandler ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtscreendatabase ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtdisplaystringconversionwarning ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xterrormsg ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtrealloc ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtismanaged ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtmalloc ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtgetapplicationresources ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtownselection ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtgetconstraintresourcelist ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtcalloc ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtname ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtstringconversionwarning ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtappsettypeconverter ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtgetresourcelist ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtfree ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtdestroywidget ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtgetvalues ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtwarningmsg ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xttranslatecoords ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtcvtstringtofont ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtwidgettoapplicationcontext ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtwarning ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtcreatewidget ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtwindowofobject ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtvasetvalues ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtappwarningmsg ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtgetselectionvalue ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so xtresolvepathname ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so ld: fatal: symbol referencing errors. no output written to twm *** error code 1 douglas l.acker western geophysical exploration products ____ ____ ____ a division of western atlas international inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ a litton / dresser company \ / / \ / /\ \ internet : acker@wg2.waii.com \/___/ \/___/ \___\ voice : (713) 964-6128 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66925">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66925" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the following problem is really bugging me, and i would appreciate any help. i create two windows: w1 (child to root) with event_mask = buttonpressmask|keypressmask; w2 (child to w1) with do_not_propagate_mask = buttonpressmask|keypressmask; keypress events in w2 are discarded, but buttonpress events fall through to w1, with subwindow set to w2. fyi, i'm using xnews/olvwm. am i doing something fundamentally wrong here? 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66929">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66929" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a package that implements standard image processing functions (reading/writing from standard formats), clipping, zoom, etc. implemented under x. both public domain and private packages are of interest. the particular application area i have in mind is medical imaging, but a package meant for a more general context would be acceptable. please reply to me; i will summarize on the net if there is general interest. - prateek mishra mishra@sbcs.sunysb.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66933">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66933" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we are currently evaluating gui builders, initially for motif but with a wish to be flexible & portable. we have been through the popular names (uimx, teleuse, xvt etc) and have been very impressed with what we have seen of galaxy from visix. i have spoken to current users from a list supplied by visix (happy users as you would expect), and seen favourable comments on the net. however, since it is fairly expensive to get an evaluation license from visix, i would like to query the net for any negative experiences with galaxy. did anybody evaluate them and prefer another tool or use galaxy and regret it or find any mis-features ? phil m gray voice: (604) 278-3411 macdonald dettwiler fax: (604) 278-2117 13800 commerce parkway richmond, bc, canada v6v 2j3 {pmg@mda.ca | ..!uunet!van-bc!mdavcr!pmg} 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66934">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66934" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i have two motif widgets. i would like to control one of them via the keyboard and the other with the mouse. i set the keyboard focus on the first widget, but as soon as i click the mouse on the second one, i lose the keyboard focus on the first one. could some kind soul show me how to do this? dev@hollywood.acsc.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66935">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66935" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better. when i set up stuff in my .emacs with a keymap and define-keys, i can only access certain of the keys on my x-terminal's keyboard. i can't get e.g. f10, home, end, pgup, pgdn; they all seem to have either the same or no keycode. i have a feeling this can't be fixed in emacs itself, but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff. can someone help me? it is actually worse than you think. i have the same problem, and have given up. emacs has an internal table (somewhere!) which defines what keys it will accept, and this table is system-dependent. i use a sun from my hp, and cannot get 'shift pageup' to work - xmodmap is not sufficient, or at least i haven't worked out how to make it work. however, i can get ordinary 'pageup' and 'shift cursorright' to work, and i do some customised things with them. note that the emacs on my hp has no problem, and i am using exactly the same xmodmap and emacs configuration. nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory, new museums site, pembroke street, cambridge cb2 3qg, england. email: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk tel.: +44 223 334761 fax: +44 223 334679 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66936">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66936" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i am using x11r5patch23 with the r5-sunos5 patch posted on export. |> i did optionally apply the patch.olit. |> libxmu compiles fine .. when i try to use it with clients (i.e. bmtoa and |> twm), i get errors ... i can not figure out what is wrong: |> gcc -fpcc-struct-return -o twm gram.o lex.o deftwmrc.o add_window.o gc.o list.o twm.o parse.o menus.o events.o resize.o util.o version.o iconmgr.o cursor.o icons.o -o2 -r/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib${ld_run_path+\:$ld_run_path} -l../.././lib/xmu -lxmu -l.|> ./.././lib/xt -l../.././extensions/lib -l../.././lib/x -l../.././extensions/lib -lxext -l../.././extensions/lib -lxext -l../.././lib/x -lx11 -l/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib -lsocket -lnsl |> ld: warning: file ../.././extensions/lib/libxext.so: attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext.so |> undefined first referenced |> symbol in file |> xtwindowofobject ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.so |> ld: fatal: symbol referencing errors. no output written to twm |> *** error code 1 the problem was that sunpost411ld was not defined. douglas l.acker western geophysical exploration products ____ ____ ____ a division of western atlas international inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ a litton / dresser company \ / / \ / /\ \ internet : acker@wg2.waii.com \/___/ \/___/ \___\ voice : (713) 964-6128 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66938">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66938" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am looking for a program i can insert into some code that will allow the title bar to be changed on a window dynamicly. if one already is out there, i would appreciate a location so i don't have to create this from scratch. thanks in advance. bob hosid:dloslv300:xerox 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66939">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66939" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 is it possible to run an mit r5 based xserver on a sun with a rasterops tc colorboard (24bit board)? i have the xsun24 patches for supporting sun's 24bit frame buffers but does the rasterops appear as if its a cgtwelve or something else? i know nothing about the rasterops other than we might be buying one to put in an ipx. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66940">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66940" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 you seem to be a little confused. the socialistic hackers who yell about proprietary software are hardly enamored of motif, which is just as objectionable to that mindset as news is. if i might wear my socialistic hacker hat for a moment, i tar news and motif with the same brush, and that brush is not technical. begging everyone's pardon, i was not slamming motif, nor was i necessarily plugging/flaming the two. i was responding to the sweet blithe statement in: <rick.734610425@digibd> from rick@digibd.digibd.com (rick richardson) rick> this is one area where microsoft nt has a big advantage. since rick> they control the whole show, there are no issues like this where rick> licensees create incompatible defacto standards. this happy statement shows a mindset that inventors and companies have when they are pleased with something that works, and they believe that others will also be happy to use it. i remember when _sunview_ was hot stuff (and am not, by that statement, endorsing sun and its products, this is just my experience), and when openwindows became hot stuff, that was when i started hearing, as mentioned before, the "socialistic masses" that were bent on destroying _anything_ that was deemed proprietary, including openwindows. i mentioned motif in the same breath, because that is what sun has decided to turn its attention to, not because i hate it. mr. richardson's position, i believe, is a healthy one, and i am sure that the seething hackers will soon try to flame and destroy nt, if it ever shows up, wanting instead everything to be free, and then complaining when there is no organized structure and there are no de facto standards. it was just a vent for frustration brought on by prevailing winds. mrs. henne 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66947">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66947" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've been trying to compile x11r5 patchlevel 23 on a sun sparc ipx using sunos_4.1.3, and gcc 2.3.3. the problem occurs during the initial "make world". when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients, it can't seem to find some of the libraries. right now we highly suspect the program "ld" which was updated for 4_1_3. yip, we had the same problem; the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients, ( btw, we used cc). :-(. ||francisco j. ballesteros [a.k.a. nemo] || email: nemo@clip.dia.fi.upm.es|| ||org: computer science, clip lab. || phone: +34 1 336-7448 || || campus montegancedo s.n. u.p.m. || ___ ___ || || boadilla del monte, madrid, spain. || \\ \\ o \\_) \ _ \__ || \+=========================================++== \\__ \\__\\ \\ == \_(_\_\_) =+/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66949">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66949" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi, all! anyone knows of a motif mailing list? i don't have access to network news and there is no longer a motif list at alfalfa.com. thanks, joel. joel reymont ! z-code software corporation ! e-mail: joel@z-code.com 4340 redwood hwy, suit b.50, san rafael, ca 94903 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66950">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66950" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 version 1.3 of xew widgets is available at export.lcs.mit.edu: contrib/xew-1.3.tar.z export.lcs.mit.edu: contrib/xew-1.3.readme for better details, check the readme. (for extensive details, you have to with xew-1.1.ps.z, still haven't had time to update this one). no new functionality has been added since 1.2 version. raster widget handles now expose events slightly more intelligently than before (really had to do this when i added a simple program that uses x11r5 athena porthole and panner widgets). the program demo/viewer.c is very simple demonstration of panner/porthole usage (copied from'editres' actually :-) markku savela (savela@tel.vtt.fi), technical research centre of finland telecommunications laboratory, otakaari 7 b, sf-02150 espoo, finland 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66952">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66952" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 given a program running on a workstation with an x based window system, how can one pop the window in which it is running to the top. by window i mean the terminal window from which it was invoked. one can't. the application may not have been started from a terminal emulator; if it was, the terminal emulator may not still exist, and if it does it may be in no condition to be "pop[ped] to the top" (eg, it may be iconified). and even if you can, it may not do what you want - consider a virtual-root window manager like tvtwm, with the relevant window in a portion of the virtual desktop that's outside the real some (but not all) x terminal emulators provide environment variables giving a window id. even if such a thing is present in the environment, it may not be what you want; it may correspond to a window on a different server, for example. der mouse mouse@mcrcim.mcgill.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66953">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66953" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've seen a lot of different terms, which seem to mean the same thing. who can give an exact definition what these terms mean: -) multi-screen -) multi-headed -) multi-display -) x-server zaphod mode as applied to servers, the first three are fuzzy terms. "multi-headed" tends to be used for any system with multiple monitors, sometimes even multiple screens even if they're multiplexed onto the same monitor (eg, a sun with a cg4 display). "multi-screen" and "multi-display" would, if taken strictly, mean different things, but since the strict meaning of "multi-display" would refer to a system with multiple keyboards and pointers, when it's used it probably refers to the same thing "multi-screen" would: a system that provides multiple screens. "zaphod" is a term applied to the way the mit server switches the pointer from one screen to another by sliding it off the side of the is there a limit how many screens/displays a single server can handle (in an articel a read something about an upper limit of 12) ? there is a protocol limitation that restricts a given display to at most 255 screens. i know of no server that handles multiple displays on a single invocation, unless possibly my kludges to the r4 server can be looked upon as such; on a tcp-based system there is necessarily a limit of 65535 displays per machine, but this is not a limitation inherent to x. what you read was most likely talking about a limit in some particular implementation (probably the mit one). if it claimed there was a limit of 12 inherent to x, the author of the article had no business writing about x. der mouse mouse@mcrcim.mcgill.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66954">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66954" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am using an x server that provides 3 visuals: pseudocolor 8 bit, truecolor 24 bit and directcolor 24 bit. lucky dog... :-) a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent (which uses the default visual which is tc24). in the xlib reference guide from 'o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow, something like: in the current implementation of x11: when using a visual other than the parent's, be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating, or else a badmatch occurs. this warning, strangely enough, is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x11r5 guides. it applies with equal force to earlier versions. presumably only recently did the author(s) decide it was important enough to mention. the necessity it refers to has always been there, but it's been implicit in the way createwindow requests default some attributes of the new window. however, even if i pass along a suitable colourmap, i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non-default visual. attr.colormap = cmap; win = xcreatewindow( copyfromparent, /* border width */ 8, /* depth */ inputoutput, /* class */ vinfo.visual, /* visual */ &attr this is because the warning you read is incomplete. you have to provide not only a colormap but also a border. the default border is copyfromparent, which is not valid when the window's depth doesn't match its parent's. specify a border-pixmap of the correct depth, or a border-pixel, and the problem should go away. there is another problem: i can't find anything to indicate that copyfromparent makes any sense as the border_width parameter to xcreatewindow. your xlib implementation probably defines copyfromparent as zero, to simplify the conversion to wire format, so you are unwittingly asking for a border width of zero, due to the xlib implementation not providing stricter type-checking. (to be fair, i'm not entirely certain it's possible for xlib to catch this.) der mouse mouse@mcrcim.mcgill.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66955">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66955" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver? no. even if you could, the answer could be out of date even before you get it (even if you grab the server, it could be taken up by buffering user actions). you should just try to do whatever you want; a badalloc error is your indication that insufficient server memory is available. der mouse mouse@mcrcim.mcgill.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66958">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66958" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i recently found the file xgolf on a german ftp site (reseq.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de) but unfortunately the shar file was incomplete and the author's email address given in the readme file (markh@saturn.ee.du.edu) does not work. can anyone assist by giving the location of a full version of this (or any other golf game for x) game, or a way of contacting the author? please reply by email if you can help adrian savage, university of bradford, uk. email: a.f.savage@bradford.ac.uk 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66959">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66959" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the xgolf program was an april fool's joke <sigh>. steve hite shite@sinkhole.unf.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66962">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66962" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 way back in the mists of time, i had a set of patches written by richard caley (i believe to the standars distribution, patch level 6) which added regular expressions in the .tvtwmrc file, multiple icon regions, squeezable icons, and f.deleteordestroy function. i still have the patches, however, i can no longer find the sources to which they applied ;-). i'd appreciate if some kind soul could send me a pointer to where i could find the sources. has anyone updated the patches for r5? (richard? are you out there? pretty please?) thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66963">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66963" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i caught up a mailmessage from an ncd guy, who stated that tek might be quitting it's x terminal activities and would be looking for an interested buyer. since the source of this message is ncd, this might only be nasty gossip !!! can anyone say more about this?? +==============================ahold nv===============================+ | room 146 , ankersmidplein 2, 1506 ck zaandam, the netherlands, eec | | dick.heijne@ccsds.ahold.nl - tel: +31 75 592151, fax: +31 75 313030 | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66964">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66964" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the xdm on solaris 2.1 *was* broke. since two weeks, sun distributes a patched release, which works fine (supports /etc/shadow and all). we have it up and running ever since and have not experienced any problems. call your local sun rep. +==============================ahold nv===============================+ | room 146 , ankersmidplein 2, 1506 ck zaandam, the netherlands, eec | | dick.heijne@ccsds.ahold.nl - tel: +31 75 592151, fax: +31 75 313030 | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66965">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66965" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 : ..continuing on my build problems, i got stuck here build xterm... : gcc -fpcc-struct-return -o xterm main.o input.o charproc.o cursor.o util.o tabs.o screen.o scrollbar.o button.o tekproc.o misc.o vtprstbl.o tekprstbl.o data.o menu.o -o2 -r/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib${ld_run_path+\:$ld_run_path} -l../.././lib/xaw -lxaw -l../.././lib/xmu -lxmu -l../.././lib/xt -lxt -l../.././extensions/lib -lxext -l../.././lib/x -lx11 -l/usr/wgep/x11r5.sos5/lib -lsocket -lnsl -ltermcap : undefined first referenced : symbol in file : index /usr/ucblib/libtermcap.a(termcap.o) : rindex /usr/ucblib/libtermcap.a(termcap.o) : ld: fatal: symbol referencing errors. no output written to xterm : *** error code 1 : make: fatal error: command failed for target `xterm' : any clues for help? either: * add -lucb -lelf to the list * #define index() and rindex() to strchr() and strrchr() respectively. both use same args. former are bsd, latter are sysv. +==============================ahold nv===============================+ | room 146 , ankersmidplein 2, 1506 ck zaandam, the netherlands, eec | | dick.heijne@ccsds.ahold.nl - tel: +31 75 592151, fax: +31 75 313030 | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66966">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66966" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax-ul4, pmax_mach, as well as sun4_mach, but whenever it compiles on sun4_411, it gives me undefined ld errors: the following libraries that i linked it to are: -lxaw -lxmu -lxt -lxext -lx11 the makefile is generated off an imake template. can anyone give me pointers as to what i'm missing out to compile on a sun4_411? 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66969">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66969" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days. (i recently added it to my feed list.) is it just me, or is this group near death? robert l. mcmillin | surf city software | rlm@helen.surfcty.com | dude! #include <std.disclaimer.h> 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66971">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66971" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 on 16 apr 1993 23:58:27 gmt, dla@se05.wg2.waii.com (doug acker) said: doug> nntp-posting-host: se05.wg2.waii.com doug> ..continuing on my build problems, i got stuck here build xterm... doug> undefined first referenced doug> symbol in file doug> index /usr/ucblib/libtermcap.a(termcap.o) doug> rindex /usr/ucblib/libtermcap.a(termcap.o) doug> ld: fatal: symbol referencing errors. no output written to xterm actually .. the problem is that you have to build with ld_library_path unset as well as ld_run_path. douglas l.acker western geophysical exploration products ____ ____ ____ a division of western atlas international inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ a litton / dresser company \ / / \ / /\ \ internet : acker@wg2.waii.com \/___/ \/___/ \___\ voice : (713) 964-6128 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66972">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66972" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the problem occurs during the initial "make world". when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients, it can't seem to find some of the libraries. right now we highly suspect the program "ld" which was updated for 4_1_3. yip, we had the same problem; the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients, ( btw, we used cc). :-(. or use a sunos 4.1.1 ld. or read fixes 9, 10, and 11 to the mit distribution. this is a known problem - just apply those fixes and set sunpost411fcsld to yes and osteenyversion in mit/config/sun.cf to 3. in fix-09: |if you are running sunos 4.1.1 and you apply sun's ld patch 100170-6, |then you will need to edit your site.def and add this line to the |aftervendorcf section: |#define sunpost411fcsld yes in fix-10: |if you are running sunos 4.1.2, change osteenyversion in mit/config/sun.cf to |have a value of 2. in fix-11: |brief notes on what this patch fixes: |config: make on sunos 4.1.2 fails unless tree previously built in sean welch 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66974">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66974" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed replies will be greatly appreciated thank you < duvvuri@cs.odu.edu > 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x66976">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66976" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the subject does not describe the problem i am having very well. please read on... i am trying to write a function which creates an xtappcontext and a widget, displays the widget for a while, then destroys everything and returns. the problem is that multiple calls to this function cause a variety of problems including (depending on which calls i make to get rid of things): - core dump - badpixmap x error - widget not unmapped here is a simple (c++) program i wrote to show the problem: #include <x11/xlib.h> #include <xm/xm.h> #include <xm/pushb.h> void bla() xtappcontext app; display *dis = xopendisplay(""); int junk = 0; widget top=xtappinitialize (&app, "test", null, 0, &junk, null, null, null, 0); widget box = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("blaaa", xmpushbuttonwidgetclass, xmnheight, 50, xmnwidth, 50, null); xtrealizewidget(top); //same as xtappmainloop but with only 10 xevents for (int i=0;i<=10;i++) xevent event; xtappnextevent(app, &event); xtdispatchevent(&event); // what should i put here??? xtunrealizewidget(top); xtdestroywidget(top); xtdestroyapplicationcontext(app); xclosedisplay(dis); main() for (int i=0;i<=20;i++) bla(); note that i rewrote xtappmainloop so that at a given time (in this example, after 10 xevents) the function will exit and return to the main program. with this example, i get the following error on about (this is not consistent) the 5th call to bla(): x error of failed request: badpixmap (invalid pixmap parameter) major opcode of failed request: 55 (x_creategc) resource id in failed request: 0xe0000d serial number of failed request: 71 current serial number in output stream: 86 if i take out the xtunrealizewidget(top); line, it just dumps core on the seconds call. furthermore, every time i call xtappinitialize() (other than the 1st time), i get: warning: initializing resource lists twice warning: initializing translation manager twice. so finally, my question is this: what needs to be done in order to be able to call a function which creates an xtappcontext and widgets multiple times? any help would be greatly appreciated. please respond via email as i dont usually have time to read this group. thanks very much. david rex wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- university of colorado at boulder 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66977">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66977" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'd like to compile x11r5 on a sony nws-1750 running news 4.1c. the x distribution has support for this config, and the release notes say it has been tested on the machine. but, also in the release notes, nothing from sony is listed under the supported servers. what am i supposed to use for my r5 x server then? how can the os be supported, but not the hardware? is there something in the r4 binaries that can be used as the r5 server? these may seem like silly questions, but i'm *really* confused. mike@hopper.acs.virginia.edu "i will not raise taxes on the middle class." -unknown 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66978">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66978" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 here's what i (think) have figured out. all i need to do is install the r5 disitribution without the xserver like the sony.cf file defines, and all the new libraries, utils, etc., will be installed and my old server from r4 will still work. this will allow me to run xview 3.0, and have x11r5 up and running. does the server interface remain the same with all changes made only to the libs? another question: is it likely that since sun is dropping ow support that the desktop utils (like the file manager) will be made public? it would be nice if companies would make old code public for the benefit of those of us with smaller budgets. :) mike@hopper.acs.virginia.edu "i will not raise taxes on the middle class." -unknown 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x66979">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x66979" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 forgive me if this is a faq (i have checked the list but i cant find it). i have a problem with the cursor within xterm on mono (not grayscale monitors) the problem is that when i have an character application that displays input fields in reverse video the xterm text cursor gets lost on the edge of the input field. the solution would appear to be to set the xterm cursor to a line rather than a block, but how do you do this. i can't find any means although various sources seem to indicate it can be done. when the xterm loses the input focus the cursor becomes an outlined block. this would also be preferable but i can't seem to force this to be the default either. configuration is : motorola 88k x11r4 please reply by email if poss. thank you steve weet - european mis - motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court, chineham, basingstoke, hants england. phone : +44 (0)256 790154 e-mail stevew@chineham.euro.csg.mot.com fax : +44 (0)256 817481 mobile : +44 (0)850 335105 post : w10075 steve weet - european mis - motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court, chineham, basingstoke, hants england. phone : +44 (0)256 790154 e-mail stevew@chineham.euro.csg.mot.com fax : +44 (0)256 817481 mobile : +44 (0)850 335105 post : w10075 
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 now available: xvertext 4.0 xvertext provides you with four functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window (previous versions were limited to vertical text). rotation is still achieved using ximages, but the notion of rotating a whole font first has been dropped. what's new? i've added a cache which keeps a copy of previously rotated strings - thus speeding up redraws. where can i get it? comp.sources.x (soon...) export.lcs.mit.edu : contrib/xvertext.4.0.shar.z (now) alan richardson, * "you don't have to be * school of maths & physical sciences, * old to be wise" * univ. of sussex, brighton bn1 9qh, england * ******judas priest***** uk: mppa3@uk.ac.sussex.syma elsewhere: mppa3@syma.sussex.ac.uk 
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 hello world, i want to write my xt-application code like this: do_some_work(); /* now i need some user input */ xmcreatedialog(); wait_for_user_input(input); if (input == "ok") { more_work(); } else { other_work(); so "more_work() and other_work()" are not in callback functions but the application simply waits for the user to answer the question. how can i code this in my xt/motif-application? thanks very much in advance. greetings, huub. cwi, p.o. box 4079 huub bakker (huub@cwi.nl) 1009 ab amsterdam the netherlands tel. 31 20 5924080 
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 i use desqview/x and i think it is great. where it really shines (imho) is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens. you'll need to get: desqview/x v 1.1 desqview/x v 1.1 $275 suggested retail desqview/x to other x systems v 1.1 $200 suggested retail you also must be running a supported network (ftp softwares pctcp, novell lan workplace for dos, sun microsystems pc-nfs, beame and whiteside, wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager) if you don't have any of this network stuff, quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager. you can get more info by sending email to (appropriately) info@qdeck.com. in my opinion, if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc, you'll want to have a 486 33 with 16 megs of ram. also, the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et 4000 (tseng labs chipset) based graphics card. personally, i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives, but that is my experience only good luck and best wishes what sort of traffic is generated with the x-calls? i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv/x is supporting multiple users (clients) and we require adequate response time. anyone have any ideas ?? __/ __/ george patapis ---------------------pan metron ariston---------- __/ __/ __/ __/ c.s.s.c lane cove-----------email:gpatapis@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au __/ __/ __/ __/ p.o.box a792 sydney south --fax :(02) 911 3 199---------------- __/ __/ __/ __/ nsw, 2000, australia.-------voice:(02) 911 3 121---------------- __/ __/ 
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 i had no possibility to join the 7th annual x technical conference january 18-20 1993 boston, ma nevertheless, i'm interested in information about the tutorials, exspecially about tutorial id: a-security title: a survey of x and security tutorial id: f-admin title: x and the administrator does anybody know, where i can get information (paper/mail) about these ? has anybody information about kerberos (escpecially in connection with x display manager xdm)? andrea winkler (siemens nixdorf muenchen, germany) s i e m e n s andrea winkler internet: andrea.winkler@sto.mchp.sni.de ------------- sni sto xs 322 otto-hahn-ring 6 d-8000 munich 83 n i x d o r f phone:(089)636-41449 fax: (089)636-42833 
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 contents:problems with table widgets in r5 the following part of a program (an user interface for a simulation system) did work in r4, but refused to in r5. of cause, the r4-version did not know about the xptablewidgetclass (we used tablewidgetclass instead - caught from the net in times of r3) and xptablechildposition (formerly xttblposition). since compiling with r5, the program causes a zero width or height error (on sparc-stations). the trouble-shooter is the (re)computation of the model_init_table - table widget: though its childs (label and asciitext widgets) exist, xtquerygeometry returns a prefered width and height of zero. thus the following asignment cannot perform anything else but set the width and height of the newly created widget to zero. no wonder xtpopup or xtmanage- child create zero width or height errors (dependent on whether width and height of the shell widget are set in the resource file or not). question: does anyone know, why xtquerygeometry returns so low prefered values when working on table widgets or perhaps what to do about? i'll be happy, if someone is able to help me. germans are requested to answer in german. siegfried kaiser email: kaiser@uniko.uni-koblenz.de the part of interest: /* graphischer neuaufbau des model-init-formulars */ /* storing the old width and height of the viewport- */ /* widget, which is the parent of the troubling table */ /* widget, before the viewport widget is destroyed */ /* the destroying of widgets before resizing them is a */ /* relict from r3-age */ if (model_init_popped_up) xtunmapwidget(model_init_form_view); xtdestroywidget(model_init_form_view); /* creating the subtree within the shell, of which the */ /* root is the viewport widget */ n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnfromvert,model_init_title); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnfromhoriz,model_init_button_view); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnallowvert,true); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnforcebars,true); n++; model_init_form_view = xtcreatewidget("form_view",viewportwidgetclass, model_init_form,args,n); n = 0; model_init_table = xtcreatewidget("table",xptablewidgetclass, model_init_form_view,args,n); /* create_form_widget does create and position table */ /* widget's childs. to position them it uses xptable- */ /* childposition in r5 and xttblposition in r4 */ create_form_widget(ptr_model_init_obj,model_init_table); /* the crucial function call: */ /* intended to return the maximum height possible: if */ /* there isn't sufficient space to show the whole table */ /* widget, then the viewport shall grow as large as */ /* possible, but not beyond the border of screen. */ /* if there is enough space, the window is intended to */ /* shrienk to the smallest possible height. */ xtquerygeometry(model_init_table,null,&pref); /* according to the algorithms idea, the new value of */ /* viewport widget's height is selected. unfortunately */ /* pref.height = 0 leads to new_height = 0. */ if (form_view_height > pref.height) new_height = pref.height; else new_height = form_view_height; /* setting the new values to viewport widgets ancestors */ w = xtnametowidget(model_init_form,"form_view"); xtresizewidget(w,width,new_height,pref.border_width); xtresizewidget(model_init_form_view,width,new_height, pref.border_width); if (model_init_popped_up) /* in case the shell, which contains model_init_form_- */ /* view and model_init_table, allready exists, is has */ /* to be resized, too. */ n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnwidth,&shell_width); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnheight,&shell_height); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnborderwidth,&shell_bw); n++; xtgetvalues(model_init_shell,args,n); xtresizewidget(model_init_shell,shell_width, shell_height - height + new_height,shell_bw); }; /* end of if */ n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnwidth,&width); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnborderwidth,&bw); n++; xtgetvalues(model_init_button_view,args,n); xtresizewidget(model_init_button_view,width,new_height,bw); xtresizewidget(vert_bar,sbar_width,1,sbar_bw); resize_inits(); /* if there is the shell's height set within the */ /* resource file, the program terminates within the */ /* first xtmanagechild on its second pass through the */ /* observed function. the first pass succeeds. */ xtmanagechild(model_init_form_view); xtmanagechild(model_init_table); if (!model_init_popped_up) /* in case the shell isn't popped up it has to be done. */ /* if there is no value set to the shell's height within*/ /* the resource file, the program terminates here. */ xtpopup(model_init_shell,xtgrabnone); model_init_pop_flag = true; set_model_init_attributes(); }; /* end of if */ get_actual_init(&ptr_actual); load_form(ptr_actual); /* if someone suspects the creation of table widget's contents */ /* causes all the trouble, there are the sources of create_form */ create_form_widget(ptr,table) t_obj *ptr; widget table; /* ptr is a linear list containing attributes and para- */ /* meters of the model and additionally the correspon- */ /* ding widgets */ arg args[10]; int n, col; t_obj *ptr_obj; t_ident *ptr_ident; /* initialization of the local variables */ ptr_obj = ptr; col = 0; row = 0; /* schleife ueber die objekte bzw. das pseudo-objekt (fuer die parameter) */ /* loop through the list of objects and pseudo-objects: */ /* every object occuring in the model has zero or more */ /* attributes and some parameters, which can be shared */ /* by several objects. */ /* because of locality the attributes of one object are */ /* listed in a second linear list (of type t_ident), */ /* whereas the parameters, which can belong to any ob- */ /* ject are put together in a pseudo-object */ /* thus the program loops through the list of objects */ /* and pseudo-objects and for each object through the */ /* list of its attributes resp. parameters. */ while (ptr_obj != (t_obj*)null) /* each object and pseudo-object is represented in a */ /* label widget */ n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnlabel,ptr_obj->name); n++; ptr_obj->label_w = xtcreatemanagedwidget("object",labelwidgetclass, table,args,n); xptablechildposition(ptr_obj->label_w,col,row); col++; row++; ptr_ident = ptr_obj->ident; /* schleife ueber die objekt-attribute bzw. parameter */ while (ptr_ident != (t_ident*)null) /* each attribute and parameter is represented in a */ /* label and has a corresponding asciitext widget, in */ /* which it is to be initialized. */ n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnlabel,ptr_ident->name); n++; ptr_ident->label_w = xtcreatemanagedwidget("ident",labelwidgetclass, table,args,n); xptablechildposition(ptr_ident->label_w,col,row); col++; n = 0; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnlength,row_length); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnstring,ptr_ident->text); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnedittype,xawtextedit); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnwrap,xawtextwrapword); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnresize,xawtextresizeheight); n++; xtsetarg(args[n],xtnusestringinplace,true); n++; ptr_ident->text_w = xtcreatemanagedwidget("text", table,args,n); xptablechildposition(ptr_ident->text_w,col,row); col--; row++; get_next_ident(&ptr_ident); }; /* end of while */ col--; get_next_obj(&ptr_obj); }; /* end of while */ } /* end of create_form_widget */ so far the problem in detail. 
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 i think you may find that either quarterdeck (deskview/x) or hummingbird (exceed) provide an xlib for dos. perhaps they also have an xlib for ms-windows? it's a possibility. yes, exceed has windows version. have ported some games like tetris, works fine. si c'est vrai, ce serait bien de se le procurer car a ce moment la, le portage xt... suis-je en train de perdre mon temps avec la toolkit c++ marc bassini (marc@ccv.fr, marc@cnam.cnam.fr) computers, communications & visions (c2v) 82 bd haussmann, 75008 paris france phone 40.08.07.07, fax 43.87.35.99 
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 i want to do the equivalent of an "xwininfo -name" via a call or set of calls in xlib. i need to map a windows name to its id. it's probably easy, but i've only been programming in x for a little while. i've looked in the o'reilly books and didn't find it and i also checked the faq and couldn't find it. email to one of the following addresses and i'll post a response if it seems reasonable to do so. guy l. babineau virginia.edu!smarine.uucp!glb6j sperry marine inc. 72147.2474@compuserve.com 
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 another company, congruent corporation of new york city, has also ported xlib xt and motif 1.1 over to ms windows nt, which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment. if you are porting interviews over to ms windows, i thought interviews was a c++ toolkit with c++ classes. if that is so, how can it be built on xlib, unless the classes are calling xlib functions? steven mikes - editor - the x journal 1097 eastbrook rd., martinsville, nj 08836 office: 908.563.9033 - fax: 908.560.8635 "serving the x window system community" 
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 |> >hey guys! |> >i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname |> >to be in a title of xterm when it's open and a machine name only |> >when it's closed. in other words, i want $host and $logname to appear |> >as a title of opened xterm and $host when xterm is closed. |> >how can i do it? |> almost all window managers (twm, mwm, olwm and their derivates) support |> escape sequences for it. for your purpose put following into your |> .login (if you're using csh or tcsh), for sh you have to modify it. |> if ( "$term" == "xterm" ) then |> echo "^[]2;${logname}@${host}^g^[]1;${host}^g" |> endif 1) this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm. 2) this sequences are not ansi compatible, are they ? does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are ? i would think they are dcs (device control sequence) introduced, but may be a csi sequence exists, too ? this must work on a dxterm (vt and ansi compatible), it may not work on xterms. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 i'm trying to get x11r5 running on my pc and ran into the following error message when trying to start the xserver. setting tcp so_dontlinger: option not supported by protocol x386 version 1.2 / x windows system (protocol version 11, revision 0, vendor release 5000) fatal server error no screens found giving up xinit: software cased connection abort (errno 130): unable to connect to x xserver. does anyone know what this error means ? has anyone experienced this problem ? help will be much appreciated thanks in advance. please send replies to <christy@alex.qc.ca> 
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 dear xperts: i want to place a specific group of icons in an icon box and have my other icons appear outside of the box. does anyone know if there's a way i can do this?? i'm using x11r5 and motif 1.2.1. thanks! dbohdal@jaguar.ess.harris.com 
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 can someone recommend an inexpensive 19" monochrome x station, that is not pc software emulation based? please tell me manufacturer, model, price and any other significant specs. thanks. gregg weber let it be, open and bright like the sky, gregg@netcom.com without taking sides, with no clouds of concepts. (510) 283-6264 - kun-mkhyen klong-chen-pa 
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 it seems like xtranslatecoord. doesn't work the way i expecting it. right after performs a xmovewindow, i want to know the absolute window position with respect to the root window. to get this info. i do a xtranslatecoordinates but the abs_x, and abs_y aren't right? does anybody know of a way to find out this information? thanks, please e-mail to hsteve@carina.unm.edu if it's possible _---_ steve / o o \ hsteve@hydra.unm.edu, hsteve@carina.unm.edu | \___/ | just say no to vms!! 
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 will there be any support for round or circular widgets in motif's next release?. i'd love to have a circular knob widget which could be used instead of a slider. how much support do you need? i don't think there's anything that prohibits you from implementing such a widget, though you will have to write your own versions of the functions that draw the 3d shadow and traversal highlighting. ken lee, klee@synoptics.com 
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 i use desqview/x and i think it is great. where it really shines (imho) is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens. you'll need to get: desqview/x v 1.1 desqview/x v 1.1 $275 suggested retail desqview/x to other x systems v 1.1 $200 suggested retail you also must be running a supported network (ftp softwares pctcp, novell lan workplace for dos, sun microsystems pc-nfs, beame and whiteside, wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager) if you don't have any of this network stuff, quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager. you can get more info by sending email to (appropriately) info@qdeck.com. actually, info@qdeck.com is our customer service department. if you have technical questions, you can write to support@qdeck.com. in my opinion, if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc, you'll want to have a 486 33 with 16 megs of ram. also, the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et 4000 (tseng labs chipset) based graphics card. personally, i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives, but that is my experience only what sort of traffic is generated with the x-calls? i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv/x is supporting multiple users (clients) and we require adequate response time. anyone have any ideas ?? i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine, not the network itself. to give you a real-world example, here at quarterdeck we have roughly 100 people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes, novell file servers, and each other. it's not _too_ much of a load on our ethernet (with maybe 4 concentrators, so you have 20-30 people on each segment). if you had a badly loaded net, or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive, you could run into some slowdowns. but the biggest problem would be the machine itself. say you have a 486 33 with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card. if you have 10 people running programs off it, you're going to see some slowdowns because you're now on (effectively) a 3.3 mhz 486. of course, dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice, but if you have 10 working programs running, you'll know it. having said that, if you can tweak the programs being run (by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing), you could probably run 15-20 people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again (this time from network bandwidth). it all really depends on what the programs are doing (ie. you're going to see a slowdown from x-bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also...) quarterdeck office systems - internet support - tom bortels pricing/ordering : info@qdeck.com | tech questions : support@qdeck.com bbs: (310) 314-3227 * fax: (310) 314-3217 * compuserve: go quarterdeck q/fax: (310) 314-3214 from touch-tone phone for technotes on demand! 
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 [ article crossposted from hp.windows ] [ author was andy defaria ] [ posted on mon, 19 apr 1993 18:08:38 gmt ] for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it's meaning. the intent of this code it to allow "date" fields the following special keys: [tt]: insert today's date [+=]: bump day up by one [-_]: bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example. perhaps i shouldn't be using an xmtext field for this. // for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys // of [tt+=-_] are hit. why? the idea of this code is to interpret these // keys having the special meaning implied by the code. i would like to get // rid of the beeping but, as far as i can tell, i'm not doing the beep and // am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring. #include <x11/intrinsic.h> #include <xm/xm.h> #include <xm/rowcolumn.h> #include <xm/mainw.h> #include <xm/text.h> widget toplevel; widget mainwindow; widget mainpane; widget datefield; xtappcontext application; void marktoday (widget date) { char *todaysdate = "04/19/93"; xtvasetvalues (date, xmnvalue, todaysdate, null); } // marktoday void marktomorrow (widget date) { char *tomorrowsdate = "04/20/93"; xtvasetvalues (date, xmnvalue, tomorrowsdate, null); } // marktomorrow void markyesterday (widget date) { char *yesterdaysdate = "04/18/93"; xtvasetvalues (date, xmnvalue, yesterdaysdate, null); } // markyesterday void datekeys (widget /* callingwidget */, widget date, xmtextverifyptr callbackdata) { // capture the keys [tt-_+=] can change their behaviour. if found // set "doit" to false so x won't interpret the keystroke. switch (callbackdata->text->ptr [0]) { case 't': case 't': marktoday (date); callbackdata->doit = false; return; case '-': case '_': markyesterday (date); callbackdata->doit = false; return; case '+': case '=': marktomorrow (date); callbackdata->doit = false; return; default: return; } // switch } // datekeys void main (cardinal argc, char *argv []) { // initialize xt toplevel = xtvaappinitialize (&application, "application", null, 0, &argc, argv, null, null); // create the toolface mainwindow = xtvacreatemanagedwidget ("mainwindow", xmmainwindowwidgetclass, toplevel, null); // create a mainwindow mainpane = xtvacreatemanagedwidget ("mainpane", xmrowcolumnwidgetclass, mainwindow, null); // create a small text area datefield = xtvacreatemanagedwidget ("datefield", xmtextwidgetclass, mainpane, xmntopattachment, xmattach_form, xmnrightattachment, xmattach_form, xmncolumns, 8, null); // set modifyverifycallback to the datekeys callback xtaddcallback (datefield, xmnmodifyverifycallback, (xtcallbackproc) datekeys, (xtpointer) datefield); // realize the toplevel xtrealizewidget (toplevel); // go into the xtmainloop xtappmainloop (application); } // main i swear by my life and the love of it that i will | andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask | hewlett packard another man to live for mine. | california language labs john galt | defaria@cup.hp.com i swear by my life and the love of it that i will | andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask | hewlett packard another man to live for mine. | california language labs john galt | defaria@cup.hp.com 
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 another important difference is that msw doesn't have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management (like xmform). is this an advantage to ms windows or to xt? i used to think it was a big advantage for xt, but i am not at all sure anymore... david smyth david@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov senior software engineer, (818)306-6463 (temp! do not use v-mail) x and object guru. tempory office: 525/b70 jet propulsion lab, m/s 525-3660 4800 oak grove drive, pasadena, ca 91109 what's the earliest possible date you can't prove it won't be done by? - tom demarco 
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 the author of wcl (or the current care taker). his is the only name i found in the dist tree. i have tried to mail him at: david.smyth@ap.mchp.sni.de, but the mail bounced back. here i am!! david smyth david@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov senior software engineer, (818)306-6463 (temp! do not use v-mail) x and object guru. tempory office: 525/b70 jet propulsion lab, m/s 525-3660 4800 oak grove drive, pasadena, ca 91109 what's the earliest possible date you can't prove it won't be done by? - tom demarco 
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 is there aything available for x similar to quickeys for the macintosh -- something that will allow me to store and playback sequences of keystrokes, menu selections, and mouse actions - directing them towards another if so, could someone send me information on its availability -- and if not, how hard do we think it might be to send input to other x applications and, hopefully, deal with their responses appropriately? (if an application is going to take a few seconds to process i probably have to wait for it to complete before sending another command.) 
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 |> (2nd posting of the question that just doesn't seem to get answered) how can we resist a questions that says something like this? |> the problem, of course, is that no expose event is generated if the window |> is already visible and mapped. what we need to do is somehow "tickle" the |> window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable |> it to render *just* the part of the window that contains the new item. |> what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior? if your expose event handler is truly intelligent about exposed rectangle information, then you can use xcleararea to generate an expose event (assuming that your background pixel is not none) for the enclosing rectangle of your new item. this is still not great, since any other items contained within that rectangle will still be unnecessarily redrawn. if your expose event handler simply redraws everything, you'll be doing much more work than just drawing the new item "on top" of the existing scene. mike yang silicon graphics, inc. mikey@sgi.com 415/390-1786 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67025">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67025" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 any pointers to articles, or personal opinions, critiquing user interface toolkits that operate across many windowing systems (e.g., x, ms windows, macintosh) - you know, open interface, xvt, aspect ... if you reply with your opinion, please briefly state your choice and a short discussion why. steve maher maher@outland.gsfc.nasa.gov steve maher (301) 286-5666 (voice) flight dynamics division maher@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov nasa/goddard space flight center 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67026">
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 has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows? in sun xview, there is a notify_enable_rpc_svc() call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request. i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x/motif that perform the same function. i've been using the xrpc package for about a year now. i believe i got it from ian hogg ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (612) 424-6332 
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 hi, experts, i'm kind of new to x. the following question is strange to me. i am trying to modify the contents of the colormap but failed without reason (to me). i am using the following piece of code: toplevel = xtinitialize(argv[0], "testcolor", null, 0, &argc, argv); dpy = xtdisplay(toplevel); scr = defaultscreen(dpy); def_colormap = defaultcolormap(dpy,scr); if(xalloccolorcells(dpy, def_colormap, true, null, 0, cells, 5)) { color.pixel = cells[0]; color.red = 250; color.green = 125; color.blue = 0; color.flags = dored | dogreen | doblue; xstorecolor(dpy, def_colormap, &color); printf("\n try to allocate, the color %d as (%d,%d,%d)", color.pixel, color.red, color.green, color.blue); xquerycolor(dpy, def_colormap, &color); printf("\n after allocate, the color %d is (%d,%d,%d)", color.pixel, color.red, color.green, color.blue); printf("\n error: couldn't allocate color cells"); running output: try to allocate, the color 7 as (250,125,0) after allocate, the color 7 is (0,0,0) after xstorecolor(), xquerycolor() just returned the original value. no failure/error displayed but the contents of colormap are obvious unchanged. (i also tried to draw a line using the colors but it turned out to be the unmodified colors.) so what is my problem? how to modify the contents of the colormap? any help/information will be appreciated. please send mail to "yang@cs.umass.edu". email: "yang@cs.umass.edu" by the way, the following is the environment i am using (output of "xdpyinfo"). it shows the default visual is pseudocolor. version number: 11.0 vendor string: decwindows digitalequipmentcorporation uws4.2 vendor release number: 1 maximum request size: 16384 longwords (65536 bytes) motion buffer size: 100 bitmap unit, bit order, padding: 32, lsbfirst, 32 image byte order: lsbfirst number of supported pixmap formats: 2 supported pixmap formats: depth 1, bits_per_pixel 1, scanline_pad 32 depth 8, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32 keycode range: minimum 86, maximum 251 number of extensions: 8 adobe-dps-extension mit-shm multi-buffering mit-sundry-nonstandard dec-xtrap default screen number: 0 number of screens: 1 screen #0: dimensions: 1024x864 pixels (333x281 millimeters) resolution: 78x78 dots per inch depths (2): 1, 8 root window id: 0x29 depth of root window: 8 planes number of colormaps: minimum 1, maximum 1 default colormap: 0x27 default number of colormap cells: 256 preallocated pixels: black 1, white 0 options: backing-store yes, save-unders yes current input event mask: 0xd0001d keypressmask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask enterwindowmask substructureredirectmask propertychangemask number of visuals: 5 default visual id: 0x21 visual: visual id: 0x21 class: pseudocolor depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x22 class: grayscale depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x23 class: staticgray depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x24 class: staticcolor depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x7, 0x38, 0xc0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x25 class: truecolor depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 8 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x7, 0x38, 0xc0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits number of mono multibuffer types: 5 visual id, max buffers, depth: 0x21, 0, 8 visual id, max buffers, depth: 0x22, 0, 8 visual id, max buffers, depth: 0x23, 0, 8 visual id, max buffers, depth: 0x24, 0, 8 visual id, max buffers, depth: 0x25, 0, 8 number of stereo multibuffer types: 0 
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 i am working on a problem of scheduling classroom, and i will like to know if you have some software, papers or articles about it. if you have something relate it, please let me know. lorenza illanes 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67039">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67039" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 environment: mach/arch : sparc/sun4 (ipx) os : sunos 4.1.3 x11 : x11r5 (patchlevel 22) motif : 1.2.2 i bring up x server using 'startx' and /usr/bin/x11/xsun. the following sequence of actions crashes the x server (sigpipe, errno=32, 'xinit' reports that connexion to x server lost): 1. xinit -- xsun 2. start mwm 3. start a client with a 100dpi/75dpi font. 4. move the window by dragging the title bar. the server dumps core due to sigpipe. one of the two messages is printed: "connection to x server lost" "connection broken (errno=32)" (i believe the first is reported by a client and the second by the server itself). next, i ran xdm in debug level = 5. after the same set of actions, xdm reports: select returns -1 server for :0 terminated unexpectedly: status 2560 note: * the problem doesn't occur with other window managers (twm or olwm). * i have not set ld_library_path. * i am not running font server. * if i start the client with fixed width font, i do not see this problem. * my font path: /usr/lib/x11/fonts/misc/,/usr/lib/x11/fonts/speedo/,/usr/lib/x11/fonts/75dpi/,/usr/lib/x11/fonts/100dpi (i did mkfontdir in /usr/lib/x11/fonts/100dpi, /usr/lib/x11/fonts/75dpi, /usr/lib/x11/fonts/pex, /usr/lib/x11/fonts/speedo, and in /usr/lib/x11/fonts/misc). * this problem seems to occur only on ipx machines. i do not see this problem on ipc workstations. questions: * what the hell is goin on ? :-) * what does "status 2560" mean (of the server). i'd greatly appreciate any hints as to the cause of the problem. s ramakrishnan, cs dept, mcbryde hall, vatech 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67040">
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 i found an oddity with our sgi indigo (mips r3000 chip). when xlock +nolock is running, and i am working remotely or in batch (at) mode, the runtime of my programs (as timed by using clock() in the code itself) is ~25% slower than if xlock is not running. no other processes seem to affect my runtimes, yet this is very consistent! any explanations, real or imagined :) dale@frostedflakes.llnl.gov 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67041">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67041" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 help: i am running some sample problems from o'reilly volume 4, xt intrisics programming manual, chapter 3. popup dialog boxes and so on. in example 3.5, page 76 : "creating a pop-up dialog box" the application creates window with a button "quit" and "press me". the button "press me" pops up a dialog box. the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time. if i try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time), it is *much* slower. has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why i get this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response time from 2nd time onwards ? anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time ? thankyou - shirley 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67042">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67042" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows? in sun xview, there is a notify_enable_rpc_svc() call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request. i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x/motif that perform the same function. i've been using the xrpc package for about a year now. i believe i got it from glad to hear that it's working for you! i couldn't find it on "export". however, simon leinen <simon@liasun6.epfl.ch> has added an imakefile and an athena version, and made it available for ftp in the file liasun3.epfl.ch:/pub/x/contrib/xrpc.tar.z. (note the ".z" suffix; you'll need gnu gzip -- also on liasun3 in /pub/gnu -- to uncompress it.) if this doesn't work, send me a note and i'd be happy to mail you a copy; but you probably won't get it until the start of may -- i'm on holidays as of tomorrow! :-) martin janzen janzen@mprgate.mpr.ca (134.87.131.13) mpr teltech ltd. 8999 nelson way burnaby, bc, canada v5a 4b5 p.s. are there any dublin x folks that want to go for a pint of guinness at, say, mulligan's...? 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67044">
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 i have a problem where an athena strip chart widget is not calling it's get value function. i am pretty sure this is happening because i am not using xtappmainloop, but am dealing with events via sockets. (ya ya). anyway, i want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget(s) will call their get value callback. or if someone knows another fast way around this (or any way for that matter) let me know. i cannot (or i don't think) call the xtngetvalue callback myself because i don't have the value for the third parameter of the get value proc (xtpointer call_data). in other words, i want to force a strip chart widget to update itself. any ideas anyone? christopher r. bailey |internet: baileyc@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu university of colorado at boulder|compuserve: 70403,1522 ride fast, take chances! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67046">
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 : jo pelkey phone: (509)375-6947 : battelle pacific northwest labs fax: (509)375-3641 : mail stop k7-22 email: je_pelkey@pnl.gov : p.o. box 999 : richland, wa 99352 hi jo, i'm also interested in your questions, so if you get any answers via email and not via repost please let me know. thanks, rainer. rainer hochreiter | telephone: +43 (1) 89100 / 3961 elin-energieanwendung gesmbh | telefax : +43 (1) 89100 / 3387 penzingerstr. 76 | a-1141 wien, austria/europe | e-mail : rainer@elin.co.at 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67048">
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 has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows ? (_ / / o_ o o |_ __)/(_( __) (_(_ /_)| )_ * suresh thennarangam * email: suresh@iss.nus.sg(internet) * * research scholar * issst@nusvm.bitnet * * institute of systems science * tel: (065) 772 2588. * * national university of singapore * facs.: (065) 778 2571 * * heng mui keng terrace * telex: issnus rs 39988 * * singapore 0511. * * 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67049">
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 hi. i'm trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it, regardless of what it may think is right. (my application has reason to know better) i don't want to set the override-redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives, i just want the wm to accept my choice of location. window = xcreatewindow(...); xsettransientforhint(display, window, window); xmapwindow(...); this is probably cheating, and some window managers might still refuse to give it a border and all that other stuff, but it usually works. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67051">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67051" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 help! i'm trying to run dxterm's (decs' xterm) on a decstation 5000/240 (ultrix 4.3, x11r4, motif 1.1.3) with the display variable set to an apollo dn2500 (domain/os 10.3, x11r4, motif ?.?). i get these errors appearing on the decstation: x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apchardel " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apcopy " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apcut " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>appaste " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apupbox " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apdownbox " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>aprightbar " to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning: cannot convert string "<key>apleftbar " to type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas? is it a motif problem...are the dec and apollo versions of motif incompatible? or something to do with xkeysymdb? (xterms run fine on dec displaying on apollo..arggh) i need to run dxterm because the package we are using on the dec's, oracle case, uses dxterm by default, and we have a lab of apollo workstations we would like to run oracle from. andrew "alf" leahy, alf@st.nepean.uws.edu.au andrew "alf" leahy phone: (047) 360771 (w) irc: pepsi-alf uni. western sydney, nepean. remote-email: alf@st.nepean.uws.edu.au sydney, australia. local-email: alf 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67055">
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 i have been trying to compile some source code for a mpeg animation viewer for x windows. i got the code from a ftp site. i have modified the makefile as they instructed, no errors there. what happens is that i get the following message when everything is going to be linked: cc util.o video.o parseblock.o motionvector.o decoders.o fs2.o fs2fast.o fs4.o hybrid.o hybriderr.o 2x2.o gdith.o gray.o mono.o main.o jrevdct.o 24bit.o util32.o ordered.o ordered2.o mb_ordered.o /lib/libx11.so /lib/libxext.so -lm -o mpeg_play undefined first referenced symbol in file getnetpath /lib/libx11.so t_alloc /lib/libx11.so t_unbind /lib/libx11.so t_open /lib/libx11.so t_rcvdis /lib/libx11.so netdir_free /lib/libx11.so t_error /lib/libx11.so netdir_getbyname /lib/libx11.so getnetconfigent /lib/libx11.so t_look /lib/libx11.so t_errno /lib/libx11.so t_close /lib/libx11.so netdir_getbyaddr /lib/libx11.so t_listen /lib/libx11.so t_rcv /lib/libx11.so setnetpath /lib/libx11.so t_bind /lib/libx11.so t_connect /lib/libx11.so t_accept /lib/libx11.so nc_perror /lib/libx11.so inet_addr /lib/libx11.so ld: mpeg_play: fatal error: symbol referencing errors. no output written to mpeg_play *** error code 1 (bu21) make: fatal error. does anyone know where these missing functions are located? if you do can you help me with it? i posted before to one of the other unix groups, i tried their suggestions but always get this error. if you have to know: i am using unix system v. the machines here are 486's. the terminals i want to use are separate and just called x-terminals and they seem dedicated to that. i'm not sure as to what they really are, since it is one of my first times out with this x-windows gidget! that is, first time programming for it, so to speak. i use them alot just for the graphics things. if you can help, mail me soon. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67056">
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 as we don't get a newsfeed i was wondering whether there was such a thing as a xt mailing list (other than xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu). i would appreciate any info on this, (or x related mailing lists.) thanks in advance, | leon thrane | telephone: +45 - 45 93 51 00 | | dimatrix aps | fax: +45 - 45 93 51 11 | | lyngby hovedgade 15d | e-mail: leon@dimatrix.dk | | dk-2800 lyngby, denmark | or ...!uunet!dimatrix.dk!leon | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67058">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67058" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 does xdm work with decnet? i have an ultrix machine running both tcp/ip and decnet. i have a number of x-terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp/ip and decnet. presently i am using xdm for the login procedure on the x-terminals using tcp/ip. since xdm is basically just an x-windows client, shouldn't i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well? my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client. it is making tcp/ip specific socket calls. in this case the answer would be no; you can not run xdm over decnet. is this right or not? any feedback is appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67063">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67063" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am currently attempting to get a copy of the hp widget set compiled under linux (sls release with kernel 99.6) and am running into some problems. actually, it seems that this is more of a gcc question, because i got it to compile without trouble using cc on an rs/6000. basically, there are a number of functions with prototypes set up in, let's say, compositep.h, for instance, the composite widget's insert_child procedure is set up with the type : typedef void (*xtwidgetproc) (widget) but in several places in the hp source code, they reference the insert_child procedure and pass it multiple arguments instead of just one, as the prototype suggests. for example: (*superclass->composite_class.insert_child)(w, args, p_num_args) now, gcc chokes on this, giving an error message that too many arguments are passed to the function. so, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to turn off this checking in gcc, or how i can go about changing the code to accomodate this call without changing /usr/include/x11/compositep.h, or has anyone successfully built the hp widget set and have any suggestions. many thanks in advance for any help. bill woodward | wpwood@austin.ibm.com <-- try this first aix software support | billw@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com graphics group | 512-838-2834 i am the terror that flaps in the night. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67064">
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 i recently compiled the x11r5pl22 sources using gcc-2.3.3 on a sun3/80. everything seems to work fine. usually. but at seemingly random times the server will just hang. i will click the mouse somewhere (never happens while my back is turned), and without warning, it will freeze there, requiring the server to be killed. sometimes it will run fine for weeks, sometimes only for minutes. (os: 4.1.1; frame buffer: bw2). has anyone seen this before, any ideas? (anything at all?) --jeff jeff weisberg | weisberg@ee.rochester.edu | real cherries, | ur-valhalla!weisberg | watch for pits! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67065">
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 |> ports of motif to both 386bsd and linux are available for a fee of about |> $100. this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to |> redistribute. the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups |> pertaining to motif has been high. i've heard about that italian guy distributing motif binaries for 386bsd, but i haven't heard of anybody doing the same thing for linux. ... and i do follow the linux news group pretty closely. so, have i missed something? i'd love to get hold of motif libs for linux for $100! joe pannon 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67066">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67066" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i've just managed to get xdm running from an ncr 3000 (an svr4 486 box running xfree86 1.2) to my ncd xdisplay. it's pretty much working, but i'm encountering a weird error. i'm attempting to start an xterm from my .xsession file, but nothing happens. redirecting stderr to a file using 'exec 2>$home/.xerrors' in .xsession reveals the error message: "xterm: error 14, errno 1: not owner" now, if i start xterm from the window manager, or from the command line, it works fine. and starting other clients, like the window manager (mwm), and a clock, from my .xsession also works. anyone encountered this? suggestions? des herriott, / as a wise man once said, micro focus, newbury. / +44 (0635) 565354 / "it takes a lot of brains to be smart, dnh@mfltd.co.uk / but it takes some neck to be a giraffe." 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67072">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67072" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 <i've had several requests to post any information i've gathered regarding my <search for ansi mouse/color xterm source. <> the mit x11 r4 and r5 both provide mouse escape sequences now. there <> are several color xterm enhancements on export.lcs.mit.edu:/contrib . <indeed i found color_xterm.tar.z in that directory along with lots of other <fun stuff for x. thanks larry. i also found it on uunet in /pub/window-sys/x/contrib, for those that can only do anonuucp (like me). but i noticed that the thing is dated 9/12/90, making it over two years old. is this really the latest version? are we talking about an xterm which would accept the same escape sequences as that for vt340 (or colour decterm/dxterm)? i thought that was called colxterm (and my testing of it shows some oddities that might be bugs or might be my program going wrong). i'm also unsure of what is meant by "ansi mouse xterm"! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67073">
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 i am having a problem with the high order bit of a character being clipped when entered in an xterm window under motif. i have reprogrammed the f1 key to transmit a <ff> <be> character sequence by using the following line in .xdefaults: ~ctrl ~shift ~alt <key> f1 : string(0xff) string(0xbe) \n\ i merge in this line with xrdb -merge and then create the new xterm which has the remapped f1 key. the problem that arises is that the application which is recieving input at the time only sees a <7f> <3e> sequence, which is <ff> <be> with the high order bit of each character being filtered or ignored. when i run xev and press the f1 key, i get the correct value showing up in the following two key events: keypress event, serial 14, synthetic no, window 0x2800001, root 0x28, subw 0x0, time 2067815294, (67,80), root:(74,104), state 0x0, keycode 16 (keysym 0xffbe, f1), same_screen yes, xlookupstring gives 0 characters: "" keyrelease event, serial 16, synthetic no, window 0x2800001, root 0x28, subw 0x0, time 2067815406, (67,80), root:(74,104), state 0x0, keycode 16 (keysym 0xffbe, f1), same_screen yes, xlookupstring gives 0 characters: "" notice that the keysym being transmitted is correct; 0xffbe. but when i use the f1 key while in vi or in a program i wrote to spit back the hex values of keyboard input, i only get <7f> <3e>. does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire 8bits make it through to the final application? any help is greatly appreciated. please *email* any responses. jim kavitsky kavitsky@hsi.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67076">
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 [posted for a friend] okay, i looked through the faqs and didn't see this, but i know its come up before... xalloccolor is supposed to do the following in order: try to find an exact match read-only color cell. (within hardware limits) try to allocate a read-only colorcell and set it to match. and when all else fails, return the colorcell with the best match from the read-only colors already allocated in the colormap. where did you hear this? if it is printed in a book somewhere, throw away the book. according to the mit specs, only the first 2 are true. ken lee, klee@synoptics.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67077">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67077" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 how can i get the font family, weight and slant from an instance of a widget? using initfontcontext(), getnextfont() and freefontcontext() i can get the size of the font (and a bunch of other stuff concerning the font) but nowhere have i found family, weight and slant. assume that i do not have access to the source where family, weight and slant were orginaly used when creating a fontlist. thanks a bunch and have a great day, carl@softsolut.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67078">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67078" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i need to write an application which does annotation notes on existing documents. the annotation could be done several times by different people. the idea is something like having several acetate transparencies stacked on top of each other so that the user can see through all of them. i've seen something like this being done by the oclock client. could someone please tell me how to do it in xt? thank you very much. the oclock widget was written using the shape extension. you can do the same in your widgets. few current widgets support shape, so you'll have to subclass them to add that ken lee, klee@synoptics.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67079">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67079" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> i am developing an x (xt,xm) application that will include a graphics window |> of some sort with moving symbols among other things. a pure x application |> could be implemented with motif widgets, one of which would be an |> xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib. but i would like to take advantage of |> the graphics library (gl) available on our ibm rs/6000 (sgi's gl i believe). |> is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program? |> can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me |> with xopenwindow? there is a widget already defined for gl. it is the glxmdraw (motif) or glxdraw (athena) widget. it is similar to a xmdrawingarea, except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window. look at glxlink, glxunlink, glxgetconfig, and glxwinset in the man pages. |> i have never used gl before, but the doc on gl winopen() says that the first |> time winopen() is called it opens a connection to the server. also, most of |> the gl calls do not require a display or gc, unlike most x calls. from this |> initial information it appears that x and gl cannot be mixed easily. is this |> true? the glxmdraw widget works pretty well. opengl will be an improvement. |> does pex (graphigs?) have the same functionality of gl? i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful, but that's just an opinion. mileage may vary. larry d. pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet : pyeatt@texaco.com those of my employer or of anyone voice : (713) 975-4056 that i know of with the possible exception of myself. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67080">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67080" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> (2nd posting of the question that just doesn't seem to get answered) |> suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that |> contains |> xlib graphics. a button widget, when pressed, will cause a new item |> to be drawn in the window. this action clearly should not call xcopyarea() |> |> (or equiv) directly; instead, it should register the existence of the |> new |> item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that |> handles |> "regular" expose events (e.g. window manager-driven exposures) take care |> of rendering the new image. using an expose event handler is a "proper" |> way |> to do this because at the time the handler is called, the xlib window is |> guaranteed to be mapped. |> the problem, of course, is that no expose event is generated if the window |> is already visible and mapped. what we need to do is somehow "tickle" the |> window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable |> it to render *just* the part of the window that contains the new item. |> what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior? to incrementally update the contents of windows, i use the following trick: 1. set the window background to none, 2. call xcleararea(display, window, 0, 0, 0, 0, true), 3. restore the window background to its correct value. the call to xcleararea does not repaint the window background, but still generates exposure events for visible parts of the window. in order to let my application know that these expose events must be handled incrementally (something is already displayed on the screen and may need to be erased), i encapsulate the 3 operations with 2 self addressed client messages, which preserve asynchronicity between the client and the server. xgrabserver(display) client message (start-incremental) background none restore background client message (end-incremental) xungrabserver(display) the grabserver prevents other events to be inserted by the server in the critical section. vincent prunet, sema group sophia antipolis inria bp 93 06902 sophia antipolis cedex france prunet@sophia.inria.fr, (33) 93 65 78 42, fax:(33) 93 65 77 66 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67086">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67086" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 environment: sun sparc 10, sunos 4.1.3. x11r5 path level 23. my x process is started by xdm. okay, that's good. i'm typing this from exactly the same setup. (us-unix layout keyboard) i did install the sunkbd patch, though. i) i want to setup the backgroud (root window?) of the tvtwm display to display the escherknot etc (grey is a very boring colour to work on)! make sure you're using "ssetroot", which comes with tvtwm. when tvtwm starts up, it nukes the existing root window. use an "ssetroot" after tvtwm starts up. (you could spawn off a "(sleep 10; ssetroot ...)&") you can also use "virtualdesktopbackgroundpixmap filename" or just virtualdesktopbackground if you just want another color besides grey. ii) when i open an xterm on the sparc 10, not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters. did you install the sunkbd patch? it's in the contrib directory on export. all the keys on my keyboard send events properly, except the following: the end, pageup, pagedown on the 6-key cluster aren't recognized. even the compose key works. (though i can't seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed.) anyone have a fix for the last two? --dave system administrator, penn state population research institute * dog dianetics ("woof woof woof? page 725.") - kibo 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67087">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67087" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun openwindows enviornment ? i've checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues. please respons via e-mail..... paul byrne british aerospace defence ltd dynamics division email paul.byrne@def.bae.co.uk fpc 450 p.o.box 5, filton phone 0272 316086 bristol, bs12 7qw 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67088">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67088" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 dear sgi and netter gl-x mixed-model experts, i am writing a mixed model application that creates a couple different color maps for different windows, and i've been having trouble getting the window manager to reliably honor my requests. in some environments (entry level r3000 indigo w/ 4.0.5) all windows are getting properly connected to their designated color maps, but on others (an iris 4d 240/gtx; also a different entry level indigo) the color mapping is unreliable and changes behavior when i compile at different times. the most common problem is that all non-top-level windows fail to be displayed according to their colormap. my application starts out by creating three top-level windows; in some cases all but the first of these also fail to be displayed by their colormap. this is spectacularly aggravating. i would dearly appreciate 1. an explanation of the standard, right, correct way to give a window a colormap such that the window manager will honor and obey it; 2. any advice about problems that could cause my failure to get my desired colormaps. by now i have exhausted my own attempts on this, having tried everything reasonable or imaginable. below is example code giving the schematic for how i have been *trying* to do this. please, please, please somebody tell me what i am doing wrong/how to do it right!!! chris lee display* dpy; /* declare some data... */ colormap popup_cmap; xcolor mycolor; window win; xsetwindowattributes cwa; int nwlist; window *wlist; /* nb: for brevity, not showing all code lines--just a schematic */ popup_cmap=xcreatecolormap(dpy,defaultrootwindow(dpy),vis->visual,allocall); /* here we store a bunch of colors using xstorecolor(dpy,popup_cmap,&mycolor); ... */ cwa.colormap = popup_cmap; win = xcreatewindow(dpy, parent, x, y, w, h, borderwidth, vis->depth, inputoutput, vis->visual, cwcolormap|cwborderpixel, &cwa); /* list all sub windows of my_topwin, parent of win, into wlist; nwlist is counter of entries in wlist. nb: wlist is static storage that can be relied on not to go away or be corrupted. i thought of that! does anyone know if setting wm properties is by data copy, or by reference pointer? ie. is it acceptable to pass data for a property, then free the data? */ xsetwmcolormapwindows(dpy,my_topwin,wlist,nwlist); xmapraised(display0,win); /* later on we handle xevents normally... typical eventloop */ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67091">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67091" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am trying to find out if my application is running on a local or a remote display. a local display being connected to the same system that the client is executing on. i have access to the display string but can i tell from the string? if the client is executing on host foo then ":0", "unix:0", "foo:0", and "localhost:0" are all local. under ultrix, i believe that "local:0" is also a valid display name (a shared memory connection maybe?). are there other strings that i should check for? is there a better way to detect this? thank you for any help you can give me. jim atkinson wavefront technologies, inc. jra@wti.com what, me? a company spokesperson? get real! =================== life is not a spectator sport! ===================== 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67093">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67093" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i have a sun 3/60 that has a mono framebuffer (bwtwo0 ?) built on the motherboard. the same system also has a cgfour (cgfour0 and bwtwo1 ?) daughterboard. i have been using this system with a color monitor having a color "front" screen from the cgfour, and a mono "back" screen from the bwtwo1, both on the same tube. i recentley picked up a 1600 x 1280 sun mono monitor, and i would like to make a two headed system with the cgfour0 and the bwtwo0. i do not care if i loose the "back" screen on the color tube from the bwtwo1. after looking through the xsun man page i am not sure if this is possible. has anybody sucessfuly done this before? --matthew 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67094">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67094" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui. but what does this mean exactly? - do they mean that all "cose-complient" apps will have the motif look and feel? - do they mean that all "cose-complient" apps will use the motif toolkit api? - do they mean both of the above? - is it possible that there will be a motif-api complient toolkit with an openlook look & feel? - how about an olit/xview/oi/interviews api toolkit with a motif l & f? (i know oi already does this, but will this be considered cose-complient?) - will there be more than one "standard" toolkit api or l & f supported? - how does using tooltalk fit in with motif? this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net... feel free to e-mail or followup. -- gil tene "some days it just doesn't pay - -- devil@imp.hellnet.org to go to sleep in the morning." - -- devil@diablery.10a.com - 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67095">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67095" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 the situation: running a fortran executable that creats an xterm. an option in the menu contained in the xterm runs a fortran subroutine that creats a tektronics-mode xterm for displaying some graphics. typing a <ret> while the tektronics-mode xterm (future reference to this will be "tek-term") is active makes the xterm read future keystrokes but does not shift input focus to the xterm (i'm basing that statement on the fact that the border of the tek-term stays the highlighted color and that the tek-term stays on top of xterm. if what i'm describing isn't input focus, let me know.) the xterm can be brought to the top by clicking the mouse button on it. subsequent selections from the xterm of the menu item that displays graphics highlihts the border and displays the updated graphics, but does not move the tek-term to the top. if the tek-term has been iconized to conserve screen space, it stays an icon. the desired behavior: one of two options - 1. whichever of the windows that is active is always on top of the inactive one. 2. whenever the tek-term is inactivated, it should revert to a icon but when it is activated it should become a window on a higher level than the xterm. what i think i need: a means of specifying that a xterm or tek-term will be at the highest level and a way to iconify/expand a xterm and tek-term. these commands, would, i'd guess, need to be in the fortran or in the command that starts up the xterm and tek-term. other information: all this is taking place on a vt-1300 (a dec dumb x-windows terminal) connected to a vax running vms and motif. thanks for your time. if you've got any words of wisdom (other than "give up" ;-), please send email to jhcox@kodak.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67097">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67097" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows ? (_ / / o_ o o |_ __)/(_( __) (_(_ /_)| )_ * suresh thennarangam * email: suresh@iss.nus.sg(internet) * * research scholar * issst@nusvm.bitnet * * institute of systems science * tel: (065) 772 2588. * * national university of singapore * facs.: (065) 778 2571 * * heng mui keng terrace * telex: issnus rs 39988 * * singapore 0511. * * 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67098">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67098" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 : |> xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib. but i would like to take advantage of : |> the graphics library (gl) available on our ibm rs/6000 (sgi's gl i believe). : |> is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program? : |> can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me : |> with xopenwindow? you can't make gl calls in an xmdrawingarea widget for sure. : there is a widget already defined for gl. it is the glxmdraw (motif) or : glxdraw (athena) widget. it is similar to a xmdrawingarea, except that it : allows you to use gl calls to render into the window. look at glxlink, : glxunlink, glxgetconfig, and glxwinset in the man pages. : the glxmdraw widget works pretty well. opengl will be an improvement. i can vouch for that. the gl widget works pretty well. i have been using it for sometime now. i'm not sure though whether you can use xlib calls to draw into the gl widget. i haven't tried it yet nor have i read the accompanying documentation completely. try posting to comp.sys.sgi for more information. better still,you will find most of the answers in the sgi manuals .. there is a little transition guide which explains the "mixed-model programming" paradigm(mixing x and gl). : |> does pex (graphigs?) have the same functionality of gl? : i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful, but : that's just an opinion. mileage may vary. well, pex is designed as an extension to x and will be more seamless but then, it is buggy to start with .. opinions again. (_ / / o_ o o |_ __)/(_( __) (_(_ /_)| )_ * suresh thennarangam * email: suresh@iss.nus.sg(internet) * * research scholar * issst@nusvm.bitnet * * institute of systems science * tel: (065) 772 2588. * * national university of singapore * facs.: (065) 778 2571 * * heng mui keng terrace * telex: issnus rs 39988 * * singapore 0511. * * 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67099">
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 hi, i'm new to this group so please bear with me! two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files. with sunview becoming rapidly obselete, i've finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview. i put together a quick test, and i've found that xputimage() is considerably slower (factor of 2 on average?) than the sunview command pw_rop() which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas. this was on a sparc ipx. it seems that: (1) the x protocol communication is slowing things down; or (2) xputimage is inefficient...or both! using xputimage, your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server, thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client-server communications mechanism you are using. is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps? these are maintained by the server, so copying them into a window is much cheaper. also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs, or running in xsynchonize mode. if you need speed, and your client can run on the same host as the x server, you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server (mit-shm). xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension. this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos. a word of warning: make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory. and another word of warning: openwindows is slower than the mit i have written an imaging tool (using xview for the gui, by the way) which yields over 10 frames per second for 512*512*8 bit images, running on a sparc ipc (half the cpu grunt of an ipx). this has proved quite sufficient for richard gooch.... 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67100">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67100" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire 8bits make it through to the final application? any help is greatly appreciated. 1. you need these resources : xterm*eightbitinput: true xterm*eightbitoutput: true 2. in the shell you need to do : stty cs8 -istrip good luck . victor . victor gattegno email: victor@hpfrcu03.france.hp.com xxx hewlett-packard france hpdesk: hp8101/rc x x x 1, avenue du canada phone : 33-1-69-82-60-60 x x x 91947 - les ulis cedex telnet: 770-1141 x x x 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67101">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67101" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 some one asked me recently why they when they used xquerybestcursor to see if they could create of a given size it seemed to imply they could, but the server did not create cursors of that size. investigation showed that some x servers will happily return any size up to the size of the root window, while others return some fixed limit of more reasonable size. the interesting thing to me is that the same server binary acts differently on different hardware - a sun4 with a cg2 will claim cursors up to root window size are ok, while a sun4 with a cg6 will stop at 32x32. so far i've also seen this behavior on ncd and phase-x x terminals and have been told it also occurs on hps. actually, the ncd is even more liberal - sizes much larger then the root winodw are gladly returned as ok. is xquerybestcursor semi-broken or is this behavior correct? i'd really like to see a 2000x2000 cursor! richard neitzel thor@thor.atd.ucar.edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole-vegg box 3000 boulder, co 80307-3000 gjo'i med sitt shinn 303-497-2057 jagar borni inn. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67102">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67102" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 #does xdm work with decnet? i have an ultrix machine running both tcp/ip #and decnet. i have a number of x-terminals hanging off the ultrix host also #running tcp/ip and decnet. presently i am using xdm for the login procedure #on the x-terminals using tcp/ip. since xdm is basically just an x-windows #client, shouldn't i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well? xdm is not just an x window client. xdm has its own protocol (xdmcp) that operates of ucp on port 177. it does provide a login window which is an x window client. as to using decnet protocol. looking through the source for xdm from x11r5 that i have here, it seems that the bare bones code is there but not completely there. #my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client. it is making #tcp/ip specific socket calls. in this case the answer would be no; you can #not run xdm over decnet. is this right or not? any feedback is appreciated. #thanks. from my look at the source, it seems you cannot run it over decnet as shipped with x11r5. patrick l. mahan --- tgv window washer ------------------------------- mahan@tgv.com --------- waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered - lazarus long a capital crime. for a first offense, that is from the notebooks of lazarus long 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67105">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67105" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun3, please send email. i am trying to put some neglected sun3s to good use but they don't have enough memory for sunos 4.1.1. thanks in advance for any help. /\ /\/ max bell | i used to think i'd emmigrate to escape / \/ /\ mbell@techbook.com | the tyrants, but now i think i'll stay ~~~~~~~~~ mbell@cie.uoregon.edu | and make them leave instead. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67109">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67109" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am trying to build and use imake (x11r4) on an ibm rs/6000 running aix v3.2. i am having the following 2 problems. (1) many of my imakefile's have contructs like /**/#this is a makefile at the start of lines to pass makefile comments thru the c preprocessor and into the makefile. most of the c preprocessors that i have used will not treat such a # as appearing at the start of the line. thus the c preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol as the start of a directive. however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol as the start of a directive. the cpp fails when it determines that "this" is not a known directive. i have temporarily hacked my imake to handle this situation but would like to come up with a better (2) several imakefiles use /**/ as a parameter to a macro when a particular use of the macro does not need a value for the parameter. the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues to work ok. if you are familiar with these problems and have solutions, i would appreciate information about on your solutions. (perhaps, this is solved in a later version of imake that i have not reviewed.) also, do you know of other cpp's that behave similarly? since i do not have easy access to news, a response to 'white_billy@po.gis.prc.com' would be appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67110">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67110" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 another company, congruent corporation of new york city, has also ported xlib xt and motif 1.1 over to ms windows nt, which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment. could someone please send me the postal and email address of congruent corporation (and any competitors they may have). thank you. snail@lsl.co.uk "washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." quote by freire. poster by oxfam. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67111">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67111" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments such as the -geometry option. since this is a standard x option, i'm wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there is some predefined function that will do this for me? thanks for any info --> robret 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67113">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67113" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 the multi-lingual archives at the computing research labs, new mexico state university will be moving to a new ftp address soon. the archives are being put under control of the consortium for lexical the new ftp address will be: clr.nmsu.edu (the current ip address is 128.123.1.12 but may change, so use clr.nmsu.edu whenever possible). please note that there is a difference between ftp sites crl.nmsu.edu and clr.nmsu.edu. the crl.nmsu.edu site will be our ftp site for items not related to the consortium for lexical research. the arabic, chinese, french, italian, indian, japanese, korean, tibetan, and vietnamese archives will all be moved. we will announce the new locations of the relevant directories once the archives have been moved. please be patient if you discover directories missing when you ftp to either crl.nmsu.edu or clr.nmsu.edu. it will take a few days to move if you are not familiar with our multi-lingual archives, we have been slowly collecting various software, fonts, and text for different languages over the past 2 years. most of the software is currently unix oriented. we would also like to encourage people to continue to contribute items to the archives to help improve the quality and quantity of multi-lingual tools. if you have an item to contribute, please put it in: clr.nmsu.edu:incoming/ and send a note to lexical@nmsu.edu telling them about your if you have any questions or comments, please send them to: lexical@nmsu.edu mleisher@nmsu.edu mark leisher computing research lab "elegance is not optional!" new mexico state university -- attributed to richard o'keefe box 3crl, las cruces, nm 88003 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67114">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67114" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 please subscribe me to this mailing list michael d. grapevine | one of these days, usn swc | one of these days, code 4g33 | pow! grape@suned1.nswses.navy.mil | it's gonna happen, bus: (805) 982-7791 | and i won't even realize it. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67116">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67116" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 try this after xcreatewindow: #include <x11/xutil.h> display display; window window; xsizehints *xsizehints = xallocsizehints (); xsizehints->flags = usposition | ussize; /* or = pposition | psize */ xsizehints->x = 42; xsizehints->y = 42; xsizehints->width = 100; xsizehints->height = 100; xsetwmnormalhints (display, window, xsizehints); xfree (xsizehints); these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values. if you use xsizehints->flags = pposition | psize, this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program, not the user. i don't know a window manager that doesn't place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above. greetings from berlin, tobias (bading@cs.tu-berlin.de) 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67117">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67117" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 does anyone know what is available in terms of automated testing of x/motif applications. i am thinking of a system which i could program (or which could record events/output) with our verification test procedures and then run/rerun each time we do regression testing. i am interested in a product like this for our unix projects and for a separate project which will be using openvms. mark d. collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice: (512) 522-3437 data systems department fax: (512) 522-5499 software engineering section 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67119">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67119" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> |> >hey guys! |> |> >i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname |> |> >to be in a title of xterm when it's open and a machine name only |> |> >when it's closed. in other words, i want $host and $logname to appear |> |> >as a title of opened xterm and $host when xterm is closed. |> |> >how can i do it? |> |> almost all window managers (twm, mwm, olwm and their derivates) support |> |> escape sequences for it. for your purpose put following into your |> |> .login (if you're using csh or tcsh), for sh you have to modify it. |> |> if ( "$term" == "xterm" ) then |> |> echo "^[]2;${logname}@${host}^g^[]1;${host}^g" |> |> endif |> 1) this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm. |> 2) this sequences are not ansi compatible, are they ? |> does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they |> are ? i would think they are dcs (device control sequence) introduced, |> but may be a csi sequence exists, too ? |> this must work on a dxterm (vt and ansi compatible), it may not work |> on xterms. it works on xterms. at least i have no problem with it. - back to the original question: i usually start new xterms by selecting the proper menu entry in my desktop menu. here is a sample command: xterm -sl 999 -n ls12i -title ls12i -e rlogin ls12i & the -n and -title options give the text for window and icon. as i use the tcsh (a wonderful extension of the csh), i can do the following: i have an alias precmd echo -n '^[]2\;${host}:$cwd^g' in my ~/.tcshrc. this is a special alias for tvtwm. it is executed each time before printing the prompt. so, i have the current host name and the current directory path in the title bar of my xterms. unido / ingolf markhof university of dortmund, ls informatik xii ___/ / p.o. box 500 500, d-4600 dortmund 50, f.r. germany \ \ / phone: +49 (231) 755 6142, fax: +49 (231) 755 6555 \__\/ email: markhof@ls12.informatik.uni-dortmund.de 
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 hi, i'm new to this group so please bear with me! two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files. with sunview becoming rapidly obselete, i've finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview. i put together a quick test, and i've found that xputimage() is considerably slower (factor of 2 on average?) than the sunview command pw_rop() which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas. this was on a sparc ipx. it seems that: (1) the x protocol communication is slowing things down; or (2) xputimage is inefficient...or both! my question is, what is the fastest way in x11r5 to dump 8 plane image data to a window? can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server? or am i stuck with xputimage() (in which case i might as well give up now...)? all help appreciated...thanks! | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap(s) using xputimage. once this is done, the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable. hope this is helpfull. 
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 a few days ago i posted a question about trying to call a function which set up an x app multiple times. it was pointed out that xtappinitialize() should never be called more than once. this helped. however, i am still having some problems. below is a new little test program that more closely models my real program. in the actual program, i am writing a library, callable from any other program. this means that the first time the lib function is called, it must initialize things, and after that, it should just use the old stuff (still around because of static variables). in the demo below, main() represents the main program calling my library and doit() represents the interface to the library function. #include <x11/xlib.h> #include <xm/xm.h> #include <xm/pushb.h> #include <stdio.h> #include <stdlib.h> void bla(xtappcontext app, widget top) widget topone = top; // in real prog, these are member vars xtappcontext theapp = app; // of a class int junk = 0; display *dis = xtopendisplay(theapp, null, null, null, null, 0, &junk, null); widget box = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("blaaa", xmpushbuttonwidgetclass, xmnheight, 50, xmnwidth, 50, null); xtrealizewidget(topone); for (int i=0;i<=25;i++) // real prog returns when "exit" button clicked xevent event; xtappnextevent(theapp, &event); xtdispatchevent(&event); xtdestroywidget(box); xtclosedisplay(dis); // setitup - should be called once only void setitup(xtappcontext *app, widget *top) int junk = 0; (*top)=xtappinitialize (app, "test", null, 0, &junk, null, null, null, 0); // doit - some library function callable from the outside void doit() static xtappcontext app; // use these every time called static widget top; static int setup = 0; if (!setup) setitup(&app, &top); setup = 1; bla(app, top); // main - program which links to my library main() for (int i=0;i<=20;i++) doit(); printf("sleeping...\n");//widget still on screen at this point sleep(5); the problem is that the widget does not go away until the new one is created. (it is still on the screen -- unusuable -- during the "sleep" in the main prog, despite the xtdestroywidget call). anyone see something i'm missing? thanks very much. (please respond via email) david rex wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- university of colorado at boulder 
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 i posted this a while ago and didn't recieve one reply, and now we have another bug report on the same subject. can anybody help me out? how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case? what i want is ctrl+o and ctrl+o to both be accelerators on one menu entry. in ora vol. 6, in the section on accelerators it says "for information on how to specify translation tables see vol. 4...", this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource. if you go to vol. 4 it says, "likewise, if a modifier is specified, there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well. for example, the translation: shift<key>q: quit() will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key (and the q key). this implies to me that setting xmnaccelerator to ctrl<key>o should do what i want, but it doesn't, it doesn't work if the user presses the control key, the shift key, and the o key. is it possible to supply > 1 accelerator for a menu entry? keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can't use xtinstallaccelerators(). i am using motif 1.1.3 on a decstation 5000 but i have also tried it on an hp using motif 1.1.3 and 1.2. steve dennis internet: sdennis@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com software engineer applicon inc. ann arbor, michigan hail to the victors!!! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67127">
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 hi everyone, does anyone know a good way to adjust colourmaps on the fly (say during an animation) and prevent the current set of colours from flickering? robert@acsc.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67130">
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 |> i have an |> alias precmd echo -n '^[]2\;${host}:$cwd^g' |> in my ~/.tcshrc. this is a special alias for tvtwm. i presume that you meant to say tcsh here ------^^^^^ michael salmon #include <standard.disclaimer> #include <witty.saying> #include <fancy.pseudo.graphics> ericsson telecom ab 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67131">
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 on 19 apr 1993 23:00:15 gmt, masc0442@ucsnews.sdsu.edu (todd greene) said: is there an xt call to give me my application context? i am fixing up an x/motif program, and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout, whose first argument is the app_context. what call can i use to give me this value? i believe it's xtvaappinitialize or something like that. robert l. mcmillin | surf city software | rlm@helen.surfcty.com | dude! #include <std.disclaimer.h> 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67134">
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 i have two questions (well probably more...) about how expose & configure events are handled. i have an appl. which uses 1 window to draw in. since i give the user the capability of scaling and zooming as well as allowing the window to be resized, i made a translation table for the expose & configure events. the expose event calls my redraw method while the configure event calls my rescale method. the rescale method invokes a "fake" expose event (actually just calls the redraw w/ an appropriate expose struct) to draw the data. quest 1. when the appl. is compiled/linked w/ r4 (running in either r4 or r5 env.) i get multiple (>4) redraws when the window gets uncovered or the size is changed. i assume i'm getting cascading events. is that right? any suggestions as to how to handle/trap events in a better way? quest 2. when the appl. is compiled/linked w/ r5 i get no expose events whatsoever. do events and/or translation tables act differently in r5? thanks in advance steve kelley umcp cs/umiacs captain, i protest! internet: skelley@umiacs.umd.edu i am *not* a merry man! - worf 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67136">
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 hi. i've looked in the faq and the o-reilly books and was unable to find (an easy) means of finding out the state of state keys such as capslock and numlock. i can certainly track the events inside of my window and set a boolean there, but what if capslock is pressed in another window? i looked at xgrabkey() and decided it was definitely not what i wanted to do. i could find no convenience function to tell me that information. my question is this: is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and/or numlock is? an even more pointed question: is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard? ie, capslock is active, and the user presses shift-a, i'd like to get a lowercase 'a' instead of 'a'. any input is greatly appreciated. please respond via email. i will repost a summary of my findings. thanks, ralph 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67138">
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 hi, i'm new to this group so please bear with me! two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files. with sunview becoming rapidly obselete, i've finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview. i put together a quick test, and i've found that xputimage() is considerably slower (factor of 2 on average?) than the sunview command pw_rop() which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas. this was on a sparc ipx. it seems that: (1) the x protocol communication is slowing things down; or (2) xputimage is inefficient...or both! my question is, what is the fastest way in x11r5 to dump 8 plane image data to a window? can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server? or am i stuck with xputimage() (in which case i might as well give up now...)? all help appreciated...thanks! | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67139">
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 |> xsetfunction( mydisplay, gc, gxxor); |> xsetforeground( mydisplay, gc, drawindex); |> then to draw i do: |> xdrawline( mydisplay, xtwindow( drawingarea1), gc, x1, y1, x2, y2); |> xflush( mydisplay); |> and when i'm all done, to return things to normal i do: |> xsetfunction( mydisplay, gc, gxcopy); |> what i'd like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of |> whatever i'm drawing over. instead what happens is i get white lines. if |> the lines are over a white background - nothing shows up. if the lines are |> over a black area - nothing shows up! it's very strange. but the gxxor |> function seems right - since if i do a rubber-banding box, it erases and |> redraws itself correctly (ie. not disturbing the underlying image). |> any suggestions what i'm doing wrong? |> david try change the gxxor to gxequiv. i have to do this for programs that are to run on ncd terminals (on sun terminals i have to change it back to gxxor)... there is a small section in the o'reilly xlib books that describes the right thing to do. the key is to set the plane_mask in the gc to the or of the foreground and background pixel values. douglas s. rand <drand@osf.org> osf/motif dev. snail: 11 cambridge center, cambridge, ma 02142 disclaimer: i don't know if osf agrees with me... let's vote on it. amateur radio: kc1kj 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67140">
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 |> i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax-ul4, pmax_mach, as |>well as sun4_mach, but whenever it compiles on sun4_411, it gives me |>undefined ld errors: |>_sin |>_cos |>_pow |>_floor |>_get_wmshellwidgetclass |>_get_applicationshellwidgetclass |>the following libraries that i linked it to are: |>-lxaw -lxmu -lxt -lxext -lx11 |>the makefile is generated off an imake template. |>can anyone give me pointers as to what i'm missing out to compile on |>a sun4_411? well, the first 2 are easy. you need the math library. try adding -lm after -lx11. don't know if that's the whole problem but it's a start. i "think" you should try linking to /usr/lib/libxmu.a instead of -lxmu. at least that solved the problem for me! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67141">
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 this is my first net letter, so forgive mistakes! i have been plagued by problems (or lack of info) with authorization in open windows 3.0 for a long while and would like some help please! i generally use strait mit x, and so don't use ow much, but when i share x software with others - bad news. problem: my friend who logs into his ssii trys to run my program that runs fine on my machine, however, my friend gets "client not authorized to connect to server" (or something close). if ow is started with the -noauth option all is well, but surely this is not required in general! also, xhost + does not work, becoming root does not work, etc... any help will be greatly appreciated! send replies to neuralog@neosoft.com or this news group 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67142">
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 #i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments #such as the -geometry option. since this is a standard x option, #i'm wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there #is some predefined function that will do this for me? if you are using the intrinsics, it is parsed for you. if you are working at the xlib level, you can parse it yourself or you can use the following bit of code. static xrmoptiondescrec options[] = { {"-geometry", ".geometry", xrmoptionseparg, (xpointer)null} #define number(x) (sizeof(x)/sizeof(x[0])) xrmparsecommand(db, options, number(options), "myapplication", &argc, argv); then use xrmgetresource() to retrieve the value and parse it using xparsegeometry(). it is probably quicker to parse it yourself from argv, however, i much prefer using the x resource management routines to do this. patrick l. mahan --- tgv window washer ------------------------------- mahan@tgv.com --------- waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered - lazarus long a capital crime. for a first offense, that is from the notebooks of lazarus long 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67144">
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 hi, i'm new to this group so please bear with me! two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files. with sunview becoming rapidly obselete, i've finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview. i put together a quick test, and i've found that xputimage() is considerably slower (factor of 2 on average?) than the sunview command pw_rop() which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas. this was on a sparc ipx. it seems that: (1) the x protocol communication is slowing things down; or (2) xputimage is inefficient...or both! using xputimage, your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server, thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client-server communications mechanism you are using. is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps? these are maintained by the server, so copying them into a window is much cheaper. also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs, or running in xsynchonize mode. -paul pmartz@dsd.es.com evans & sutherland 
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 i've installed x11r5 with patches for solaris 2.1 on our sparcstation lx / sparcclassic pool. on the lx, x11r5 runs fine, but on the classics, after giving the command startx, xsun prints the following messages: warning: cg3_mmap: can't map dummy space! mapping cg3c: no such device or address and exits. does anybody know how to fix this problem? thanks in advance. christian rank lehrstuhl fuer wirtschaftsinformatik * universitaet passau * innstr. 29 * d-8390 passau 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67147">
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 are there any vendors supporting pressure sensitive tablet/pen with x? i will appreciate any pointers. thanks, sanjay baldwa@adobe.com or ..!decwrl!adobe!baldwa 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67151">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67151" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> try this after xcreatewindow: |> #include <x11/xutil.h> |> display display; |> window window; |> xsizehints *xsizehints = xallocsizehints (); |> xsizehints->flags = usposition | ussize; /* or = pposition | psize */ |> xsizehints->x = 42; |> xsizehints->y = 42; |> xsizehints->width = 100; |> xsizehints->height = 100; |> xsetwmnormalhints (display, window, xsizehints); |> xfree (xsizehints); |> these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window |> are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these |> values. if you use xsizehints->flags = pposition | psize, this tells the window |> manager that the values are prefered values of the program, not the user. |> i don't know a window manager that doesn't place the window like you prefer if |> you specify the position and size like above. you are right but please don't do this. it makes my brain hurt. usposition and ussize should only be set if the user specified the position and size. you say: "tom, don't blow a gasket, what's the harm?" some window managers do very different things (besides positioning the window) when they see usposition rather than pposition. tom lastrange toml@boulder.parcplace.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67152">
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 on 21 apr 1993 03:49:16 gmt, dla@se05.wg2.waii.com (doug acker) said: doug> nntp-posting-host: se05.wg2.waii.com i am having a big problem trying to build mit x11r5 with xlc 1.2.1 (the one bundled with aix 3.2.3e). its almost the linker is not working properly with shared libraries. i've built x11r5 with no problem before .. but now its all headaches. for example, the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch of xt routines and shr.o is missing (or something like that). the build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is going on. ....following up on this, the specific error i get is: could not load program ./xset symbol xtvasetvalues in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtname in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtwindowofobject in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtappsettypeconverter in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtscreendatabase in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtresolvepathname in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtcvtstringtofont in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtcallconverter in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined could not load library libxmu.a[shr.o] error was: exec format error douglas l.acker western geophysical exploration products ____ ____ ____ a division of western atlas international inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ a litton / dresser company \ / / \ / /\ \ internet : acker@wg2.waii.com \/___/ \/___/ \___\ voice : (713) 964-6128 
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 link with '-lm' (math library). this is a bug in sun's shared libraries. linking with '-assert nodefinitions' should do the trick. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67154">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67154" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 on 22 apr 1993 01:02:41 gmt, dla@se05.wg2.waii.com (doug acker) said: doug> nntp-posting-host: se05.wg2.waii.com on 21 apr 1993 03:49:16 gmt, dla@se05.wg2.waii.com (doug acker) said: doug> nntp-posting-host: se05.wg2.waii.com doug> i am having a big problem trying to build mit x11r5 with xlc 1.2.1 doug> (the one bundled with aix 3.2.3e). its almost the linker is not doug> working properly with shared libraries. doug> i've built x11r5 with no problem before .. but now its all headaches. doug> for example, the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch doug> of xt routines and shr.o is missing (or something like that). the doug> build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is doug> going on. doug> ....following up on this, the specific error i get is: doug> could not load program ./xset doug> symbol xtvasetvalues in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtname in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtwindowofobject in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtappsettypeconverter in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtscreendatabase in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtresolvepathname in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtcvtstringtofont in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtcallconverter in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in ../.././lib/xmu/libxmu.a is undefined doug> could not load library libxmu.a[shr.o] doug> error was: exec format error .... a search on ibmlink revealed that this is similar to ix33890 (howervre this was closed use). douglas l.acker western geophysical exploration products ____ ____ ____ a division of western atlas international inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ a litton / dresser company \ / / \ / /\ \ internet : acker@wg2.waii.com \/___/ \/___/ \___\ voice : (713) 964-6128 
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 hi there netters, i require a window to appear at a co-ordinates (0,0) (top left corner) of my screen (root window). could some windows guru out there help me on how to go about doing this. i write the whole program which creates the window with the image it displays - i require the image to appear at the top-left corner so that i can grab it for recording on to video, using a minivas controller, which expects the window at the same spot every time. thanks in advance. sanjeev sharma office: e_mail: deptt. of computing science sharma@monet.vill.edu villanova university (215)645-6463 
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 i just had an idea. i'm not sure if its been done and i'm just remembering it unconsiously, but i thought that in dialog boxes and whatever in windowing systems, there should be a way to intuitivly set some things checked or unchecked or filled in a certain way. my idea: tape. you know, like putting a piece of tape over a light switch? just an idea, if you like it, use it. daniel drucker n2sxx | xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu forever, forever, my coda. | und2dzd@vaxc.hofstra.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67158">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67158" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 [again, poseted for a friend] okay, i got such great response from my last question (thanks, everyone), lets try again: how can i tell if a colorcell is read-only? i want to use any read-only cells that are already in my colormap once i start running out of allocatable cells, using some arbitrary nearest color matching scheme to get those cells that come closest to a requested color. once i determine if a cell is read-only, i assume i can then just request an xalloccolor() with the exact same color specifications and it will then be flagged as 'used' by my application so that it doesn't later get freed by someone else and allocated again as read-write to another so far, the only way i've figured out to do this is to write my own error handler and just go ahead and request the cells colors, once my colormap is all full up. it should error out if the cell is non-shareable. but life would be much easier if i could just detect the read-only/shareable stuff directly... any ideas? noel (ngorelic@speclab.cr.usgs.gov) 
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 environment: sun sparc 10, sunos 4.1.3. x11r5 patch level 23. my x process is started by xdm. okay, that's good. i'm typing this from exactly the same setup. (us-unix layout keyboard) i did install the sunkbd patch, though. ii) when i open an xterm on the sparc 10, not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters. did you install the sunkbd patch? it's in the contrib directory on export. all the keys on my keyboard send events properly, except the following: the end, pageup, pagedown on the 6-key cluster aren't recognized. even the compose key works. (though i can't seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed.) anyone have a fix for the last two? i don't know anything about a "sunkbd" patch, but i use the following .xmodmap file (run from .xinitrc via "xmodmap $home/.xmodmap", of course) for my type-5 unix keyboard: (it's a bit "brute force", however.) ! sun type-5 unix keyboard remappings ! this remaps the arrow keys properly ! by default, the arrow keys on the keypad (shift-8 = up, shift-4 = left, ! shift-6 = right, and shift-2 = down) work, but the arrow keys are not ! assigned to any keysym keycode 27 = up keycode 31 = left keycode 34 = down keycode 35 = right ! now we want the back space key to emit the "delete" keysym keycode 50 = delete ! other random mappings that aren't on by default ! sysrq/print screen key keycode 29 = sunsys_req print ! break/pause key keycode 28 = break pause ! alt graph key keycode 20 = mode_switch ! pageup key keycode 103 = prior ! pagedown key keycode 130 = next ! insert key keycode 51 = insert ! home, end keys = ??? ! open look functions ! stop key (sunstop keysym == cancel) keycode 8 = sunstop ! again key (sunagain == redo) keycode 10 = sunagain ! props key keycode 32 = sunprops ! undo key (sunundo == undo) keycode 33 = sunundo ! front key keycode 56 = sunfront ! copy key keycode 58 = suncopy ! open key keycode 79 = sunopen ! paste key keycode 80 = sunpaste ! find key (sunfind == find) keycode 102 = sunfind ! cut key keycode 104 = suncut - greg earle phone: (818) 353-8695 fax: (818) 353-1877 internet: earle@isolar.tujunga.ca.us uucp: isolar!earle@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov a.k.a. ...!elroy!isolar!earle 
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 hello... i wonder if some one can suggest an answer to the following question: i am a total x novice and would appreciate any suggestions you may have. i am trying to create a simple drawing tool.... | ___|___ |_____|__| | |_____| let's say i have two rectangles on the canvas(see above) one intersecting the other... now, i would like to delete one of the rectangles. the way i do it is to create another gc wherein i use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting it for all apparent purposes. a problem with this approach is that at the points of intersection the pixel locations belonging to the other rectangle also become white, which is something that should be avoided. is there any way i can avoid this problem without having to redraw the other rectangle too? i also would not like to generate an expose event for the affected area as this degrades performance very badly... thank you... 
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 a simple question to all the xperts: is it possible to use several x-terminals with only one mouse and one keyboard? any suggestions? thanks, rainer. rainer hochreiter | telephone: +43 (1) 89100 / 3961 elin-energieanwendung gesmbh | telefax : +43 (1) 89100 / 3387 penzingerstr. 76 | a-1141 wien, austria/europe | e-mail : rainer@elin.co.at 
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 if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun3, please send email. i am trying to put some neglected sun3s to good use but they don't have enough memory for sunos 4.1.1. thanks in advance for any help. there is a free program called 'xkernel' which does just that. it is by seth robertson (seth@ctr.columbia.edu). it takes a sun 3 and boots a limited kernel which allows you to run x. we converted 4 machines over this semester and the speedup is enormously appreciable -- i find them faster than an ncd 15inch black&white xterminal that we are playing with, and a bigger screen to boot! as a matter of fact, the department just bought some old sun3s at an auction to convert! } xkernel is available for anonymous ftp from ftp.ctr.columbia.edu } [128.59.64.40] in /xkernel/xkernel.shar (/xkernel is a symlink to the } latest version of xkernel) note that the compiled version which is available is for the sun 3/50, but compiling to work for a sun 3/1xx should be quite easy. i am not connected with xkernel except as a satisfied installer and user 8). i may be able to answer questions; feel free to email me. greg owen { gowen@forte.cs.tufts.edu, gowen@jade.tufts.edu } systems programmer and ta, tufts university computer science dept. 230- all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss's address. 230- if you don't like this policy, disconnect now! 
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 animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap(s) using xputimage. once this is done, the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable. hope this is helpfull. i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates (20 400x400x8 frames / sec on ipx) that i get with sunview, though it's a bit "choppy" at times. also, loading the data, making an ximage, then xput'ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome, so the animation is slower to load than with sunview. is there a better way to load in the if you need speed, and your client can run on the same host as the x server, you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server (mit-shm). xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension. this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos. a word of warning: make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory. and another word of warning: openwindows is slower than the mit i have written an imaging tool (using xview for the gui, by the way) which yields over 10 frames per second for 512*512*8 bit images, running on a sparc ipc (half the cpu grunt of an ipx). this has proved quite sufficient for richard gooch.... shared memory putimage (also mentioned by nkissebe@delphi.beckman.uiuc.edu, nick kisseberth) looks interesting, but i need someone to point me to some documentation. is this method likely to give better results than server- resident pixmaps? i'd also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above... thanks for the help so far. if i get something decent put together, i'll definitely post it to the net. | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | 
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 usually when i start up an application, i first get the window outline on my display. i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen. yet when i specify the -geometry option the window appears right away, the properties specified by the -geometry argument. the question now is: how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick? i've tried explicitly setting window size and position, but that did alter the normal program behaviour. thanks for any hints ---> robert ps: i'm working in plain x. * robert gasch * der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins * * oracle engineering * freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch * * de meern, nl * auf gewalt in frage stellt * * rgasch@nl.oracle.com * - einstuerzende neubauten * 
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 |> two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation |> of raster files. with sunview becoming rapidly obselete, i've |> finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview. |> i put together a quick test, and i've found that xputimage() |> is considerably slower (factor of 2 on average?) than the |> sunview command pw_rop() which moves image data from memory |> pixrects to a canvas. this was on a sparc ipx. it seems that: |> (1) the x protocol communication is slowing things down; or |> (2) xputimage is inefficient...or both! my question is, what the protocol has to move the whole image from process memory to server memory, this is the hog. the conversions in the xputimage() are |> is the fastest way in x11r5 to dump 8 plane image data to |> a window? can i take advantage of the fact that the client is |> running on the same machine as the server? or am i stuck with yes, by utilizing the mit-shm extension, that provides an xputimage derivate that uses shared memory. fine fast. |> xputimage() (in which case i might as well give up now...)? no. you can still xputimage all of the frames onto pixmaps (thus moving them to server memory) and then replay them fastest using xcopyarea() but be aware, this is a major server memory bummer ! +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 if a x-window package exists, that runs om pc, dos (and maybe ms-windows) i would be very happy to hear about it. thanx in advance. -- eigil krogh sorensen 
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 a colleague has a bizarre font problem on his new mips workstation. when he first logs on (via xdm), he has a single xterm window appear with the mwm window manager running. in this configuration, x windows applications (particularly xdvi) work fine. however, if he opens up a second xterm application, suddenly xdvi cannot start in either window, giving the error: unable to load iso 8859-1 font. the only difference between the two xterm windows is that the initial one references a different name in the xsession file, with prettier colours and other slight changes. further investigation shows that only opening a default xterm causes this behaviour, and more significant, all x applications can no longer load any fonts if they are invoked from the command line in either window. if i start the xterm with a different font (using the -fn option), no problems. it would seem that the default xterm is loading a font which somehow causes the server to lose all of its fonts. note: xlsfonts in either window shows all of the fonts available, so there doesn't appear to be a problem in the font directories/hash-tables. other than rewriting the xterm app-defaults file to use a different font and hope for the best, does anyone have any ideas? more info: this is the most recent mips workstation (r4000 i believe), with the most current operating system and running x11r5. it is not mwm's fault, as the same problems occur under twm, etc. 
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 i have a problem when i'm using postscript. when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good, but when i connect to the sun from a x-terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news-display. why doesn't postscript work on an x-terminal? is there any way to make it work? henrik "henrik hjort" hjort 
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 : i am looking for a package that implements standard : image processing functions (reading/writing from : standard formats), clipping, zoom, etc. implemented : under x. both public domain and private packages : are of interest. the particular application area i : have in mind is medical imaging, but a package meant : for a more general context would be acceptable. : please reply to me; i will summarize on the net if : there is general interest. : - prateek mishra : mishra@sbcs.sunysb.edu keep tabs with the faq in sci.image.processing. there is quite a comprehensive compilation of image processing s/w (x included). i've ftp'ed imagemagick and its great. check out the faq its all there. 
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 i am testing a port of x11r5 to coherent, a unix clone os for intel architecture machines. i am seeing a strange problem with text in clients like xvt (a simple terminal emulator program). the problem manifests it self when the shell echoes typed characters back to the server for display, one at a time. the characters appear to be too closely spaced, with the result being that the 2nd character echoed destroys the rightmost edge of the first character, then the 3rd character destroys the rightmost edge of the second character, and so on. it looks like there is an invisible boundary around a character which obscures a portion of the previous character. there is no problem between the characters when the shell returns a complete line of text... only when the output is a series of individual if anyone has any ideas what the problem might be, or where i should look to find it, it would be much appreciated. regards and thanks, jon dhuse. jon dhuse | internet: jdhuse@sedona.intel.com intel corp. ch3-69 | phone: (602)-554-2685 5000 w. chandler blvd. | any opinions expressed are my own, chandler, az 85226 | not my employer's. 
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 has anyone built cxterm (x11r5) on a mips platform. if you have, please send me email as i don't read this group. i've a bunch of questions... edward m. greshko control data taiwan voice: +886-2-715-2222 x287 6/f, 131 nanking east road, section 3 fax : +886-2-712-9197 taipei, taiwan r.o.c 
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 i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates (20 400x400x8 frames / sec on ipx) that i get with sunview, though it's a bit "choppy" at times. also, loading the data, making an ximage, then xput'ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome, so the animation is slower to load than with sunview. is there a better way to load in the if you need speed, and your client can run on the same host as the x server, you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server (mit-shm). xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension. this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos. a word of warning: make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory. and another word of warning: openwindows is slower than the mit i have written an imaging tool (using xview for the gui, by the way) which yields over 10 frames per second for 512*512*8 bit images, running on a sparc ipc (half the cpu grunt of an ipx). this has proved quite sufficient for richard gooch.... shared memory putimage (also mentioned by nkissebe@delphi.beckman.uiuc.edu, nick kisseberth) looks interesting, but i need someone to point me to some documentation. is this method likely to give better results than server- resident pixmaps? i'd also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above... thanks for the help so far. if i get something decent put together, i'll definitely post it to the net. the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x. look in: mit/doc/extensions/mit-shm.ms i found this invaluble. unfortunately, there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments, making an ximage from it, etc. also, there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it, but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel. i have written layers of convience routines which make all this as for the xview code, well, i doubt that would be considered interesting. the interesting stuff is done in a c object library. people interested in this code can email me. richard gooch, rgooch@atnf.csiro.au 
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 i need help binding some value to the home and end keys on my keyboard. i have an rs/6000 w/ aix3.2.3ext running x11r5pl19 mit dist. i'm using a pc running exceed for windows as my xterminal. the home and end keys do not send a value, and my application needs them to be defined. i used this in my xdefaults to define the keys: varnet*vt100.translations: #override \ <key>home: string("\033[8~") \n\ <key>end: string("\033[7~") then i xterm -name varnet. this works perfect, however the 7 and the 1 key on my keypad are also defined as \033[8~ and \033[7~. any ideas? help please. egan f. ford egan%phony25.cc.utah.edu@hellgate.utah.edu 
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 the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x. look in: mit/doc/extensions/mit-shm.ms i found this invaluble. unfortunately, there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments, making an ximage from it, etc. also, there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it, but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel. i have written layers of convience routines which make all this as for the xview code, well, i doubt that would be considered interesting. the interesting stuff is done in a c object library. people interested in this code can email me. richard gooch, rgooch@atnf.csiro.au thanks for docs info. it turns out that if i leave out colormap updates between frames and use tvtwm, my tests with 100 400x400x8 frames on an ipx using the server-resident pixmap method give an astonishing *50* frames per second! and very smooth. i think i've found the best solution (thanks to the generous help on this group!) however, i may have colormap questions later..... | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | 
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 i consider twm-style squeezed titles indispensable in a window manager. i like to have two tall xterm windows visible at the same time, with no overlap; and since two windows aren't enough, i have other xterm windows underneath them, with exactly the same positioning. in case you're not familiar with squeezed titles, here's a crude picture: ====================== figure 1 ==================================== | + title a + + title b + + title c + | + this is the + + window b hides window c, but + | + body of the + + you can still see c's title + | + window, window a + + which is squeezed right. + ====================== figure 1 ==================================== squeezed titles allow me to have about 5 such windows in each stack, with easy access; and 3 per stack is usually more than i really need, since i also insist on having a virtual wm. the only problem is that the title location is static, that is, it is configured in .twmrc, and in order to change it you have to edit that file and restart the window manager. doing so is cumbersome and time-consuming. therefore, i have implemented f.squeeze{ left, center, right } functions in my own copy of vtwm; the idea being that with one click of a button, you can change this: + title a + + this is the + + body of the + + window, window a + to this: + title a + + this is the + + body of the + + window, window a + okay. so far, so good. now, how the heck do i get them to put this into the next "official" twm, and the next tvtwm, and the next vtwm, and the next ctwm? and the next xyztwm that i never heard of? one way would be to post, in comp.windows.x, a description of this enhancement, together with an explanation of why i think it is a very good thing, and hope that someone reads it. :-) in case it isn't already clear why i think it's a very good thing, look back up at figure 1, and picture window a moved over on top of windows b and c; now window a's title hides window b's title; but when you hit f.squeezecenter, the result is: + title b + + title a + + title c + + this is the body of the window, + + window a, which is on top. + the rest of this posting explains how to implement it, based on my x11r4 copy of vtvwm.shar; it's just a sketch because posting the full diffs would be too long. the key to this enhancement is to add the following lines in the executefunction() routine in menus.c: #ifdef shape case f_squeezeleft: { static squeezeinfo left_squeeze = { j_left, 0, 0 }; if (deferexecution (context, func, scr->selectcursor)) return true; tmp_win->squeeze_info = &left_squeeze; setframeshape( tmp_win ); break; .... and similarly for squeezeright ( j_right ) and squeezecenter ( j_center ) ... #endif ( of course, you also have to define f_squeezeleft in parse.h and add { "f.squeezeleft", fkeyword, f_squeezeleft }, ... and so forth ... to parse.c in order to use these functions, add something like the following to your .twmrc file: button2 = m | s : w|v|d|r|i|t|door : f.squeezecenter about a year ago, i posted this, but our news was broken and i *think* it didn't get out. since then, "blast" has appeared in comp.sources.x, volume 19, issue 41; you could use blast to achieve a similar effect, by chiseling away at an mwm-style wide title. better to have a twm-style window manager, i think. ralph betza (fm), uunet!ssiny!gnohmon gnohmon@ssiny.com "the question of whether a computer can swim is more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can think" - lenny dykstra 
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 | shared memory putimage (also mentioned by nkissebe@delphi.beckman.uiuc.edu, | nick kisseberth) looks interesting, but i need someone to point me to some | documentation. is this method likely to give better results than server- | resident pixmaps? i'd also be interested in looking at the xview code | mentioned above... there is no easy answer to this question: it depends on whether the display device can hold pixmaps in off-screen memory, and if so, how efficiently the server manages these resources (having to deal with limited off-screen memory is the bane of the server implementor's existence!). i have worked with graphics devices where the off-screen memory to main display copy rate eclipses that of the main memory to display copy rate, and with those where the main memory to display is *faster* than off-screen to display (requires only a write to the framebuffer rather than a read of the f.b. followed by a write) if your server uses the cfb code or something like it to render into pixmaps in cpu main memory, the rates you can get through mit-shm are likely to be equal (maybe a tad slower, depending on your os's implementation of shared memory) to copyarea from pixmap to window, which is also then just a copy from cpu main memory to graphics device. one advanage of mit-shm is that if your images are large, you don't end up growing the size of the server process to hold them. one disadvantage of the mit-shm is that, in its sample implementation, there is no provision for elegantly cleaning up the shared memory segments if the client dies a sudden, violent death (e.g., "kill"). you have to be mindful of cluttering up the system with zombie shared memory segments. kenneth whaley (408) 748-6347 kubota pacific computer, inc. email: whaley@kpc.com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara, ca. 95051 
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 i have a problem when i'm using postscript. when i am working local on a sun sparcstation ipc the postscript works good, but when i connect to the sun from a x-terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news-display. why doesn't postscript work on an x-terminal because xterminals do not have a news server. xterminals have speed by nature of their limited functionality: once you add news and everything else, you have a workstation. there are workarounds, i've heard, one involving a perl script. what we are trying to do is replace programs that need news (like pageview) with programs that don't (like ghostview). maybe someone else can elaborate on the perl workaround; i have no personal experience with it. greg owen { gowen@forte.cs.tufts.edu, gowen@jade.tufts.edu } systems programmer and ta, tufts university computer science dept. 230- all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss's address. 230- if you don't like this policy, disconnect now! 
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 subject says it all... anyone know where i can find one. binaries are nice, but source would do to. thanks in advance, rob banz (banz@umbc.edu) "if we give people an alternative to microsoft...it will have been a greater good." -steve jobs (unixworld, april 1993) "yes, bill, we are your father!" -ibm os/2 presentation, fose'93 
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 |> >i posted this a while ago and didn't receive one reply, and now we |> >have another bug report on the same subject. can anybody help me out? |> the problem is that motif uses xgrabkey to implement menu accelerators, |> and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply. unfortunately, |> the specification for xgrabkey doesn't allow anymodifier to be combined |> with other modifiers, which is exactly what would be desired in this case: |> "ctrl any<key>q". |> >in ora vol. 6, in the section on accelerators it says "for information |> >on how to specify translation tables see vol. 4...", this is so you |> >know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource. if you go to |> >vol. 4 it says, "likewise, if a modifier is specified, there is |> >nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well. for |> >example, the translation: |> > shift<key>q: quit() |> >will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as |> >the shift key (and the q key). |> this is true for accelerators and mnemonics, which are implemented using |> event handlers instead of grabs; it's not true for menu accelerators. if |> you're a motif implementor, i'd suggest lobbying to get the xlib semantics |> changed to support the feature i described above. otherwise, change the |> documentation for menu accelerators to properly set the user's |> expectations, because menu accelerators are not the same thing as |> translations. |> >is it possible to supply > 1 accelerator for a menu entry? |> if you mean "menu accelerator", no it's not possible. that's according to |> the definition of the xmnaccelerator resource in the xmlabel manual page. |> >keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you |> >can't use xtinstallaccelerators(). |> i can't think of a reason why not. |> >how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of |> >case? what i want is ctrl+o and ctrl+o to both be accelerators on one |> >menu entry. i find this thread on motif accelerators absoultly amazing. if i were writing an interface to keyboard accelerators, i would have one resource called "accelerators" that took a translation table, period. i would also implement it so that programmer never has to do any work to get the accelerators installed. as soon as the end-user specified one, it would be active and automatically installed. to get multiple accelerators on a single menu item i'd do something like: *menuitem.accelerators: #override \n\ ctrl<key>m: fire() \n\ shift<key>l: fire() \n the accelerators would work exactly like translations and you would automatically see a "ctrl m" show up in your menuitem object. why in the world is the motif stuff so complicated with so many different special cases depending on what type of widget you're dealing with? there has to be some reason. sorry for the political tone of this message... tom lastrange toml@boulder.parcplace.com 
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<answer instance="comp.windows.x67198" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 well, after massaging the dec.cf, osf.def, (can't remember the exact names) from osf into my normal x11r5 distribution, everything compiles and links fine, but xterm doesn't run. warning: representation size 8 must match superclass's to override background warning: translation table syntax error: modifier or '<' expected warning: ... found while parsing 'p^#j?;'p)=#' x error of failed request: badcolor (invalid colormap parameter) major opcode of failed request: 85 (x_allocnamedcolor) resource id in failed request: 0x0 serial number of failed request: 18 current serial number in output stream: 18 other than this, all the other core x stuff seems to be working ok. any hints/tips appreciated, patches would be primo. jaye mathisen, coe systems manager (406) 994-4780 410 roberts hall,dept. of computer science montana state university,bozeman mt 59717 osyjm@cs.montana.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67200">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67200" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am using the glx widget + athena widgets on a mixed-model application, under 4dwm, but when the dialog gets popped up, its text entry field does not have focus. aimilar code works perfectly if i use "pure x" (no mixed-model). here is the relevant portion of the code. int n; arg wargs[16]; widget button, popupshell, dialog; /* initialize toplevel here */ n = 0; xtsetarg(wargs[n], xtnlabel, "foo"); n++; button = xtcreatemanagedwidget("foobtn", commandwidgetclass, toplevel, wargs, n); popupshell = xtcreatepopupshell("pupshell", overrideshellwidgetclass, button, null, 0); xtaddcallback(popupshell, xtncallback, mypopup, (xtpointer)popupshell); n = 0; xtsetarg(wargs[n], xtnvalue, ""); n++; dialog = xtcreatemanagedwidget("thedialog", dialogwidgetclass, popupshell, wargs, n); void mypopup(w, popup_shell, call_data) widget w; widget popup_shell; xtpointer call_data; xtpopup(popup_shell, xtgrabexclusive); a way i found to give focus to the text field is to move the application window around a little bit and place it right behind the popup. any pointers would be greatly appreciated. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67201">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67201" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 on the code i sent, please replace the line: xtaddcallback(popupshell, xtncallback, mypopup, (xtpointer)popupshell); xtaddcallback(button, xtncallback, mypopup, (xtpointer)popupshell); the rest (and my question) remains the same... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67204">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67204" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am having problems with a motif application that when run on another machine (with different x paths, etc) can't find the xkeysymdb file. this causes a large warning output: warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfactivate warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfactivate:managerparentactivate()' warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfcancel warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfcancel:managerparentcancel()' warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfselect warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfselect:managergadgetselect()' as the file is in a different location, but xt seems to only look for it in the place where it is on the machine the app was compiled on. is there any way to read the xkeysymdb manually with an x/xt call so that additions to the xkeysymdb can be distributed with the application ? i have used trace(1) to find out what was going on, but i need a fix so that these translations in the application can be recognised. --tim tim liddelow for(;;) fork(); systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day. citri, melbourne, australia internet : tim@kimba.catt.citri.edu.au phone : +61 3 282 2455 fax : +61 3 282 2444 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67206">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67206" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i need (probably) to write one or more new motif widgets on the hp-ux platform. do i need the motif private header files and source, or can i make do with the public headers that are provided? "motif" includes xt in this context. yes. you'll find it almost impossible without the source at this point. it does depend on how ambitious you are and how concerned you are about compliance with the general interface and items like traversal. one widget is a multi-column list (which lots of people have already written, i am sure), and would therefore be probably be a subclass of list rather than something simple like an xt class. is this more difficult (in principle, not lines of code)? i'm not sure what you're asking. you could create something which is very much like a true multi-column list by placing several lists within a geometry manager, and putting that manager within an automatic scrolled window. this wouldn't be good for very large lists, but you might consider this as an alternative. alternatively, if anyone has a multi-column list widget they could sell me, this might save me from having to write one! does it by any chance exist in motif 1.2 already (i do not yet have the spec)? motif 1.2 does not have a multi-column list in it. have you looked at commercial sets? there are also some pd widget sets, one of these might have a multi-column list you could port. douglas s. rand <drand@osf.org> osf/motif dev. snail: 11 cambridge center, cambridge, ma 02142 disclaimer: i don't know if osf agrees with me... let's vote on it. amateur radio: kc1kj 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67207">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67207" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 my question is this: is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and/or numlock is? alright. ignore this. i have delved a bit deeper (xkeyevent) and found what i was looking for. ev->state has a bunch of masks to check against (lockmask is the one for capslock). unfortunately, it appears that the numlock mask varies from server to server. how does one tell what mask is numlock and which are for meta (mod1mask, mod2mask, mod3mask, mod4mask, mod5mask). eg, sgi's vendor server has mod2mask being numlock, whereas solaris 1.0.1 openwindows 3.0 has mod3mask for numlock. is there an unambiguous means of determining numlock's mask at runtime for any given server? sorry for the wasted bandwidth and my appalling ignorance. thanks, ralph 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67208">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67208" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have the march/april version of the x journal open in front of me. i'll be working on programming x-clients this summer, and since i don't have much experience with programming x, i thought this issue might be helpful as it has a section on debugging, and a section on the 40 most common errors in programming x. at the end of the errors section, there are the following references for tutorials on x programming style. they are: rosenthal, david - a simple x11 client program proceedings of the winter 1988 usenix conference, 1988. lemke, d., and rosenthal, d. - visualizing x11 clients proceedings of the winter 1989 usenix conference, 1989. does anyone know where i could find these in printed or (preferably) electronic form? or can you suggest any net resources devoted to the introduction to programming x (i'll be looking at the bookstore for books, so i am really only asking about what i can find on the net.) david simpson davesimp@soda.berkeley.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67209">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67209" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 : help: i am running some sample problems from o'reilly volume 4, : xt intrisics programming manual, chapter 3. popup : dialog boxes and so on. : in example 3.5, page 76 : "creating a pop-up dialog box" : the application creates window with a button "quit" and "press me". : the button "press me" pops up a dialog box. the strange feature of : this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the : first time. if i try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time), : it is *much* slower. : has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why i get : this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response : time from 2nd time onwards ? : anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time : they popup in reasonable fast response time ? : thankyou - shirley thanks to those who responded. we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods: 1) running twm rather than olwm 2) keeping olwm, but putting "wmtimeout: 10" in the resources it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window. any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information, please post and let us know. thanks -- shirley 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67212">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67212" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 question: what is the exact entry (parameter and syntax please), in the x-terminal configuration file (loaded when the x-terminal boots), to add another system to the tcp/ip access control list? background: i have two unix systems, 1. an at&t 3b2 running x11r3 and mit's x11r4 and 2. a sun ss10 without any x. i want to have a window to the sun and the 3b2 on the ncd x-terminal at the same time. i can do this if i manually set the network parameter tcp/ip access control list to off, then login to my telnet session. not great! i've tried to get "xhost" to work and failed. either my syntax is wrong or the x11r3 implementation is bogus. i am trying to edit the ncd configuration file that is loaded when the ncd boots. no matter what entry i add or edit, the ncd still boots with the tcp/ip access control list containing only the 3b2. my manuals are worthless so any help would be most appreciated!! thanks! ann marie barden abarden@afseo.eglin.af.mil 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67215">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67215" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi netland, i thought that i once read about the existance of a virtual mwm like vtwm. on the usual ftp sites (gatakeeper.dec.com, export.lcs.mit.edu) i can't find any trace of this program. could anybody give me a hint where to find this program or confirm/deny the existance of this program. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67218">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67218" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 has anyone had experience porting imake to dos using a microsoft, watcom, or any other dos compiler? since i do not have easy access to news, a response to 'white_billy@po.gis.prc.com' would be appreciated. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67219">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67219" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hello, recently i have been printing out a lot of files on school's laser printer and feeling guilty about it. please help me by showing me where to get a post script viewer for x-windows. thank you for your help. a student trying to enhence his cybernatic ability. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67220">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67220" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 sorry, but olwm and tvtwm don't do it. they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it. this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later. currently, my solution is: xcreatewindow(...); xsetwmproperties(..); xmapwindow(...); xflush(...); xmovewindow(...); it works with olwm, but is less than elegant. all this leaves me wondering if i'm overlooking something obvious. i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the "user" window. maybe other window managers have similar options. another way to figure out the difference between the "user" window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions. you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window. unfortunately, you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way. tobias (bading@cs.tu-berlin.de) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67222">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67222" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for source sample on how to create a window with an image in it (actually a 2dim matrix of unsigned char). any help will be appreciated! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67223">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67223" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 dear netters, i have noticed something rather weared (i think) about creating a dialog shell widget while running hp vue's vuewm. for some reason, every time i create a dialog shell the foreground and backgroun d colors are different compared to my toplevel shell. i am not doing anything special/different. does any body know anything about this problem?? how to fix it without hardcodin g the colors ? please respond to kamlesh@salzo.cary.nc.usa .... thanks ! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67224">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67224" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we are in the process of evaluating x-terminals. this includes running xremote over a serial line. i would like to run some x benchmarks to determine comparative performance. has anyone written any such benchmarks, or know of any useful programs on the net ? i heard of a program called "xstone", but i couldn't locate it using please reply to afielden@mlsma.att.com, as i don't get to read this newsgroup thanks in advance for any help. |andrew fielden. at&t network systems uk | tel : +44 666 832023 | |information systems group (sun support) | email : afielden@mlsma.att.com | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67228">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67228" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i tried to e-mail you but it bounced so... hi there, i have a problem when i'm using postscript. when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good, but when i connect to the sun from a x-terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news-display. why doesn't postscript work on an x-terminal? is there any way to make it work? it might be that the x terminal doesn't support the "postscript extensions to x" product. i use the 'dxpsview' program on a decstation 5000 to view postscript files but when i moved to an ncd x terminal, i couldn't use it any more. so i ftp'd and compiled ghostscript (gnu software). now we can view postscript files on our x terminals. hope this helps. henrik "henrik hjort" hjort grant totten, programmer/analyst, trent university, peterborough ontario gtotten@trentu.ca phone: (705) 748-1653 fax: (705) 748-1246 take everything in stride. trample anyone who gets in your way. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67229">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67229" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi netlanders, does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix thanks in advance try metacard - a hypercard-like programming environment on x. chun hong 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67231">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67231" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better. when i set up stuff in my .emacs with a keymap and define-keys, i can only access certain of the keys on my x-terminal's keyboard. i can't get e.g. f10, home, end, pgup, pgdn; they all seem to have either the same or no keycode. i have a feeling this can't be fixed in emacs itself, but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff. can someone help me? unfortunately, the key event handling is pretty much hardwired into emacs. i ran into this problem a while back; my solution was to change the source code so that all of these special keys generated character sequences which basically encoded the keysym and modifier state as escape sequences -- for example, the sequence "esc [ 1 b 7" would indicate that the "home" key was pressed, with the shift key down. you could also detect standard keys with odd modifiers, such as "shift-return". if anybody wants these changes, they're welcome to them, but you'll have to have the source available and be comfortable munging with it a bit. basically you have to replace the keypress handling code in the source file "x11term.c". maybe if someone at osf is interested, i can send them the tweaks, but i imagine they've got bigger fish to fry (hopefully including the much talked about emacs v19!). if there's sufficient interest, i'll post the mods somewhere, although this probably isn't the appropriate group for it. notes: * this special code will only apply if you let emacs create its own (x11) window. if you run it in plain old tty mode (which includes xterm windows) then it's business as usual. * the patches i made were to version 18.58, under sun os 4.1.2 [i also did this a while back under hp-ux]. the patches are in a chunk of code between '#if sun ... #endif' but could easily be adapted for anything else. | mark lanzo kd4qlz lanzo@tekelec.com 919-460-5576 | \\\/// | +-------------------------------------------------------+---- \xx/ -------+ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67234">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67234" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i recently read here that sun has a patch for xdm on solaris2.1. i was wondering if anyone could give me the patch number. thanks in advance, tracy tolley university of central florida - technical support 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67236">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67236" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i just got xfree86 running on my pc with consensys and encountered a few minor (i hope) probems. the pc is hooked up to a lan where i want remote x applications to connect to my x-server. i believe the command to permit this is xhost. when i'm logged on my pc and type 'xhost + ' , i get the error message saying "you must be on local machine to enable access". what does this mean ? ain't i already on the local machine? another problem i have is with the mouse movement. i find that the mouse cursor moves extremely slow and choppy. how can i make the mouse cursor move more accurately? thank in advance. any help is much appreciated. please send replies to christy@alex.qc.ca. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67239">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67239" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 where do i find the athena widgets that are needed for xtdm-2.4.8 thanks in advance 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67243">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67243" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 my question is whether the upcoming release of x11r6 will provide (strong) authentication between the x clients and server(s). if so, will this feature be based on the kerberos authentication mechanism (and, if so, will kerberos version 5 be used)? please reply via email. --andre andre s. cosma | rrc 1n-215 | bellcore - security and andre@bae.bellcore.com | 444 hoes lane | data services (908) 699-8441 | piscataway, nj 08854| 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67247">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67247" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am working on an x-window based application that needs to override some of the window manager focus processing. i am using x11r4 and motif 1.1 currently, although i will also be working with open look in the future. what i need to do is under certain circumstances prevent the user from switching from one window of the application to another window. let's say, for example, that window a is on top of window b in the window hierarchy. normally, if the user clicks the mouse in window b it will be brought to the top of the window hierarchy and placed on top of window a. under certain circumstances if the user clicks the mouse in window b i need to beep and prevent window b from being raised on top of window from the research and testing i've done so far, it appears that this window ordering is handled by the window manager, in this case motif. i haven't found any way to override this default processing through standard x window functions. i can tell when this switching occurs through focus change and mapping notify events, but i can't find any way to tell motif not to make the the temporary solution i've currently come up with is very kludgy but it partially works. when i detect such a window switch in those cases when the switch is not allowed, i manually force the formerly top window back on top with an xraisewindow call and beep with the xbell function. this provides the necessary functionality but looks ugly when the windows switch places does anyone know how i can tell motif (or preferably *any* window manager) when i don't want the window order switch to actually take place? respond either by e-mail or posting to this cheers.... randall * randall severy * uunet: uunet!ge!severy * * ge information services * internet: ge!severy@uunet.uu.net * * 401 n. washington st. mc05a * genie: rsevery * * rockville, md 20850 usa * phone: +1-301-340-4543 * 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67248">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67248" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> : help: i am running some sample problems from o'reilly volume 4, |> : xt intrisics programming manual, chapter 3. popup |> : dialog boxes and so on. |> : in example 3.5, page 76 : "creating a pop-up dialog box" |> : the application creates window with a button "quit" and "press me". |> : the button "press me" pops up a dialog box. the strange feature of |> : this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the |> : first time. if i try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time), |> : it is *much* slower. |> : has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why i get |> : this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response |> : time from 2nd time onwards ? |> : anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time |> : they popup in reasonable fast response time ? |> : thankyou - shirley |> thanks to those who responded. |> we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods: |> 1) running twm rather than olwm |> 2) keeping olwm, but putting "wmtimeout: 10" in the resources |> it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the |> window manager positioning the popup window. any guru who can analyse |> what is going on from this information, please post and let us know. |> thanks -- shirley i ran in to this problem i while ago, and from what i remember you should use xttranslatecoordinates etc. after realizing the main widget to calculate the location of the popup, then use something like xtvasetvalues on the popup widgets before ever using them. calling setvalues repeatedly (e.g. every time something pops up) seems to be what slows you down. i never delved deep enough to figure out exactly why though... jeremy payne uiuc neuroscience program / college of medicine jrpayne@uiuc.edu (217)244-4478 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67249">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67249" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hello-- i'm currently designing the architecture of a chip which is intended to help speed up common operations on a windowing system such as x. a friend and i are designing the chip as the final course project for an advanced computer architecture course taught by dr. fred brooks at unc-chapel hill. while we feel that we've got a pretty solid design currently, we'd really like to get ahold of some frequency data from an x-windows server so that we can make the most effective use of our bit unfortunately, i've been unable to find anything of this sort in the various x faqs, or x manuals that i've seen. does anyone have some type of frequency data, like how many copy-rectangle operations vs draw-lines, and things of that sort? or, barring that, a program that records requests to the server into a logfile that i can munge on myself? any and all help would be very appreciated. many thanks, ---mark mark a. deloura deloura@cs.unc.edu u of north carolina, chapel hill 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67252">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67252" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we have recently obtained a copy of color_xterm (from export.lcs.mit.edu) after seeing it mentioned in a previous article. on compilation, it reports the following undefined symbols: but still runs. when sending escape sequences to set the colour, any colour comes out as black text on a black background. any ideas? has anyone used this program in colour successfully? can anyone point me to any other colour terminal emulators? we are running openwindows 3 on sun sparcs running sunos 4.1.3. advathanksnce ben kelley. ben@thor.dbsm.oz.au 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67255">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67255" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 has anyone found a fix for the following problem? client software: sunos 4.1.1, x11r5 server hardware: sun ipc server software: sunos 4.1.1, open windows 3.0 (w/ patch 100444-37) a motif 1.2.2 application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows 3.0 server (xnews). the pulldown is displayed but then no button actions have any effect. sometimes pressing <return> will unstick the application but not usually. it looks like the pulldown is grabbing the focus and never letting go. other windows on the display continue to get updated so the server isn't hanging. if i log in from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back to normal. the same application when run against other x servers (including mit x11r5 xsun, decwindows, tektronix x terminal) has no problems. this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a work-around since most of our customers are openwindows users. i have tried the following things: 1. installing the latest version of the openwindows server patch (100444-37). 2. using mwm (version 1.2.2) instead of olwm. 3. applying the patch specified in the motif faq (question 110). this had the effect of disabling the point-and-click method of menu interaction (as opposed to the click-and-drag method), and screwing up the menu mnemonics keys. it did seem to help, but i was still able to get the application to hang. repeat by: this is an intermittent problem so you'll have to try several times. click and release on a menu heading (pulldown menu will pop up) click and release on a menu item repeat until application hangs any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance. skip koppenhaver skip@eco.twg.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67257">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67257" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have a problem with icon pixmap. my application has to run under openwindow and motif. i wrote my program in motif with pixmap and icons. it runs fine under motif/motif window manager and x11r5/mwm. but the icon pixmap does not show up under openwin/olwm and x11r5/olwm. has anybody got into this kind of problem? need a clue. an example which works in both x11r5/motif and openwindow will be great. jigang yang, jigang@dale.ssc.gov, jyang@sscvx1.bitnet 2550 beckleymeade ave. ms 4011 tel: 214-708-3498 dallas, tx 75237 fax: 214-708-4898 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67259">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67259" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 excerpts from netnews.comp.windows.x: 23-apr-93 x toolkits paul prescod@undergrad.m (1132) i am getting linux, so i will have interviews, but i don't know how it will look. i get the impression andrew is from the fsf, but i don't know what it looks like either. if you're on the internet and your site isn't sheltered from external tcp/ip traffic, you can use the remote andrew demo to see what the andrew toolkit looks like: remote andrew demo service this network service allows you to run andrew toolkit applications without the overhead of obtaining or compiling the andrew software. you need a host machine on the internet, and you need to be running the x11 window system. a simple "finger" command will allow you to experience atk applications firsthand. you'll be able to compose multimedia documents, navigate through the interactive andrew tour, and use the andrew message system to browse through cmu's three thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups. to use the remote andrew demo service, simply run the following command on your machine: finger help@atk.itc.cmu.edu the service will give you further instructions. gary keim andrew consortium 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67260">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67260" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 cutsie little macintrash-like icons that are an instant recipe for mousitis imho. system 7 is undoubtedly the worst gui i have used (out of that, riscos, mswombles, and x11) simply because it does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts. windows i must confess i quite like (cover your ears :-) ) because you can actually use it without having to ever touch the [stuff delete] the user rather than making things _easier_ - and there should always be the option to do it your way if you want to, which is why i like the unix/x combination so much - it's so customizable. hear! hear! i agree completely. one thing i can't stand about the mac interface is its shear determination to force you to use the mouse(what if your mouse breaks--your whole system is down!). i like the mouse--it is handy on some occassions such as cut and past and moving icons around, etc. but for most work, the keyboard and hot keys are 10-20 times faster than using the mouse. sure it is a plus to be able to do something simple if you are an inexperienced user, but how long is it before your are experienced? a month? two? (speaking of pcs at the moment.) i don't think it is too much to ask that window programmers provide not only a menu/mouse interface but also look forward to those who would like to move on to hot keys and command line interfaces, which usually allows you to do more in less time if you are experienced. all of the above equally applies to windowing systems on unix (especially since unix is at least 500% more powerful than dos). and at least 500% more user unfriendly as well! 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67261">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67261" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i'm new to the hardware and with a mandate to port some x-based stereo-video software --- does anyone know of or have experience with x on amiga machines? if i can retain the x event handling, it would ease my plight considerably, and if i can keep all the motif bits, so much the better! there is x for the amiga, but it'll cost you. gfxbase inc., owned by dale luck, one of the original amiga architects, sells x for the amiga. there are many options available, including motif. call 'em and get the gfxbase inc. 1881 ellwell drive phone: 408-262-1469 milpitas, ca 95035 fax: 408-262-8276 i've got no connection with them, other than being a satisfied customer. joe hartley | jh@cadre.com - whenever you find that you are on the cadre technologies | side of the majority, it is time to reform. - m. twain 222 richmond st. | -------------------------------------------------------- providence, ri 02903 | overman 1st class - the kilgore trout memorial clench (401) 351-5950 x266 | of the church of the subgenius 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67265">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67265" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i have a togglebutton widget (yes widget) and i have a routine which changes the color of the foreground and background of the label. well, the background changes alright, but the label text does not redraw itself. i am guessing that i have to force it to redraw with an xexposeevent sent to it via xsendevent. is this the best way to get the text up again? i can't seeem to get xsendevent to work right.... if this is a good approach, might anyone have an example lying around to show me how to do this? i've rtfm all evening and did not find a decent ps i keep getting segmentation faults in xsendevent, tho all the values are as expected. thanks in advance stephen m. dahmen 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67268">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67268" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 : experiment: from a sun openwindows 4.1.3 xterm window log into a : solaris 2.x machine using rlogin; now do an "ls" and get the first : character of each line display in the last column of the display : with the rest of the line wrapped to the next line of the display. : log out and the condition persists. check stty all, try reset : with no effect. the condition happens when the tab is not set to 8 spaces, set and then check out. suresh sivaprakasam department of computer science, suny buffalo, amherst, ny - 14260-0001 internet :sivap-s@cs.buffalo.edu bitnet : sivap-s@sunybcs.bitnet 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67269">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67269" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 while i cannot answer questions about running xdm over a decnet, i can say that the following defines must be added to the site.def before building r5 before any x clients will work over a decnet. from site.def #define connectionflags -dtcpconn -dunixconn -ddnetconn #define extralibraries -ldnet hoping this helps, * the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way * * represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school, its agencies * * or personnel. mcc@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu || cmcgc@cunyvm.bitnet * * the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way * * represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school, its agencies * * or personnel. mcc@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu || cmcgc@cunyvm.bitnet * 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67272">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67272" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 xcursor version 4.1 is now on export as xcursor4.1.tar.z. i've added a new option to determine if a requested cursor size is ok. of course, your server may lie! richard neitzel thor@thor.atd.ucar.edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole-vegg box 3000 boulder, co 80307-3000 gjo'i med sitt shinn 303-497-2057 jagar borni inn. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67273">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67273" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 is there a pd version of cfb, or other pd server stuff, which has a colour frame buffer implementation which works in bitplaned mode, i.e. where the screen memory is grouped so that "bit 0 of every pixel is here, bit 1 is there, etc." the only such beast i know if at the moment is the gfxbase server for the commodore amiga, and it is commercial. i don't know if they wrote their own cfb, but i suspect they did. please respond by email, as i don't read this group. many thanks david crooke, department of computer science, university of edinburgh janet dcc@ed.dcs : internet dcc@dcs.ed.ac.uk : ip talk dcc@129.215.160.2 work: jcmb rm 3310, king's bldgs, w mains rd., edinburgh eh9 3jz. 031 650 6013 home: 2fl, 39 woodburn terr, m'side, edinburgh eh10 4st. tel: 031 452 9067 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67274">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67274" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i was planning to use the following pipe to move some display data to a system that has a color hardcopy unit: xwd | xwud -display hostname:0.0 i had tested it with some simple windows like the openwindows file manager, and it worked fine, but when i tried it with a more complex (larger) image, the xwd part blew up with a segmentation fault. i tried it without the pipe, by redirecting xwd's output to a file and then used the file as input to xwud and got the same error from xwud. if i had to guess, it seems like it's running out of memory, but this happened on a sparc 10 with 64 megs, 128 meg swap space, and only one user with minimal activity. the file was about 3 mb. this verion of xwd/xwud was supplied with the sun openwindows 3.0 distribution which i believe corresponds to x11 r4. any ideas? thanks in advance. dave humes | johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory (410) 792-6651 | humesdg1@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67278">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67278" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 can any apollo gurus out there let me know of their experiences building mit x11r5, with or without gcc 2.3.3. in particular, is there anything i should watch out for. thanks in advance --tim tim liddelow for(;;) fork(); systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day. citri, melbourne, australia internet : tim@kimba.catt.citri.edu.au phone : +61 3 282 2455 fax : +61 3 282 2444 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67279">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67279" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 my hp720 workstation uses pseudocolor (id 0x21, 255 colors) as the default visual. how can i start x with different visual as default? 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67280">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67280" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hey folks, on the course to develope a x window application, we encountered a problem. how could i transform a x window bitmap into a postscript files ? is there any library routines or source code i can call to do the job ? thank you in advance. p.s. email reply please. i seldom read this newsgroup. =) 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67282">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67282" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i'm looking for a x-windows tool that can display data (in a 2d plot) in real time with a couple different signals. anybody know of such a gem? please email me as i do not read this group often. thanks much! eric slimko theslim@caen.engin.umich.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67283">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67283" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i need help positioning the slider of a list widget's horizontal scrollbar. i am displaying the full path of a selected file in a list widget. the horizontal's slider defaults to the left side of the list widget; however, i need the slider on the right side. this is so the user can see the file name they selected. i know it's possible, because when files are displayed in a file selection dialog box, the slider is on the right side. thanking any and all who can help in advance, rodney f. clay clay@cs.scarolina.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67284">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67284" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i need xrn and xarchie for the hp's (9000/730, version 8 os), either in the source form or, (preferably) in executable form. please suggest where i can find this, send e-mail to: rao@cse.uta.edu thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67287">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67287" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server. is this accurate? mike@hopper.acs.virginia.edu "i will not raise taxes on the middle class." -unknown 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67289">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67289" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 briefly, starnet communications has four pc x server packages. micro x-lite $ 75.00 includes integrated tcp/ip, runs in 640kb, no arcs(). micro x-enlite $150.00 includes integrated tcp/ip, runs under dos, shape extension " interface to novell tcp/ip micro x-dos $345.00 ($225 ea. in a 5-pack) includes integrated tcp/ip, runs under dos, shape extension " interface to novell tcp/ip, ftp's pc/tcp, & pc-nfs. micro x-win $425.00 ($300 ea. in a 5-pack) includes lanera tcpopen tcp/ip stack & utilities " interface to ftp's pc/tcp, sun's pc-nfs, & winsock. for more information contact: starnet communications fax: 1-408-739-0936 3073 lawrence expressway voice: 1-408-739-0881 santa clara, ca. 95051 e-mail microx@starnet.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67291">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67291" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hi guys, it has been a long time since i wrote a program using x. i am trying to get myself re-familiarize with x. i would appreciate your help regarding the following problem. i am trying to compile a simple x program on sun running sunos 4.1.2. cc -o ex ex.c -lxaw -lxmu -lxt -lxext -lx11 -lm i am getting an error ld: undefined symbol the simple program i tried to compile is given below. #include <stdio.h> #include <x11/intrinsic.h> #include <x11/stringdefs.h> #include <x11/xaw/form.h> main(argc,argv) int argc; char **argv; widget toplevel; widget frame; toplevel = xtinitialize("ex","ex",null,0, &argc,**argv); frame = xtcreatemanagedwidget("form",formwidgetclass,toplevel,null,0); xtrealizewidget(toplevel); xtmainloop(); i got the same error when i tried to build "xpostit" using the imakefile provided with the software. i have compiled x programs before (not on this machine, but on other machines running sunos 4.0 and x11 r4). i did not get this error message can anybody tell me why i am getting these messages. i would appreciate if you can email your responses to me at azn30@ruts.ccc.amdahl.com. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67293">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67293" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i'd appreciate any feedback on capture/playback tools for use with x clients. i have pulled xtm from public domain but it appears to be set up to test x servers not x clients. any comparisons/comments on regression testing tools would be great - particularly xtm, xrunner, autotester, and sri's capbak, smarts and exdiff. megan grenenger megan@cs.uq.oz.au 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67295">
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 # i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support # for a tektronix terminal in an x server. is this accurate? xterm supports 401x emulation. patrick l. mahan --- tgv window washer ------------------------------- mahan@tgv.com --------- waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered - lazarus long a capital crime. for a first offense, that is from the notebooks of lazarus long 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67296">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67296" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 can anyone out there tell me how to get the total number of color cells allocated in the default colormap? e.g. colormap = defaultcolormap(mydisplay, myscreen); the maximum number of allocated cells is given by defaultcells(mydisplay, myscreen), but in general the number of cells actually allocated will be much less than this, depending on the color requirements of the windows currently in place. i'd like a way to determine this number. thanks in advance! | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67297">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67297" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 please unsubscribe pancamo@blkbox.com. this user has become inactive and i wish to discontinue his participation in this mailing list. marc newman mknewman@lkbox.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67301">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67301" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 [i am posting this for a friend whose news service is "fubared as usual". i will forward replies to him, or if you want to try to reply directly, try: return-path: <uunet!sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com!mcfar> pr ] i have an event handler working for a buttonpressmask like: xtaddeventhandler( plot_data->display, buttonpressmask, false, show_mouse_position, plot_data); but i would like to be able to have two types of actions: one to occur with the left mouse, the other the right, and perhaps one with the middle. so my event handler would look more like: xtaddeventhandler( plot_data->display, left-buttonpressmask, false, show_left_mouse_position, plot_data); xtaddeventhandler( plot_data->display, right-buttonpressmask, false, show_right_mouse_position, plot_data); however i don't know how to make my left-buttonpressmask. there didn't seem to be one in the event mask lists i had on hand (although button1motionmask looked promising). my references also mentioned using "|" to or two mask events. can you use "&" to and two masks? would i want to in this any help would be appreciated. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67303">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67303" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 the 4/100 prints out the following message about it's framebuffer cgtwo0 at vme24d16 0x400000 vec 0xa8 cgtwo0: sun-3 color board, fast read anybody know the story on this? - can i have an impulse item instead? henry d. reynolds hdr@ross.com -or- hdr@nidhog.cactus.org fone: (512)892-7802 x253 ross technology, inc. fax: (512)892-3036 5316 hwy 290 west suite 500 austin, tx 78735 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67307">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67307" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hi, looking for any advice or suggestions about a problem i'm having with mit x11r5's editres, in particular under twm variants. for a start, 9 times out of 10 (but not always) editres won't grab a widget tree when running on our ncd (decwindows) xterms, which i'm told will be fixed when the r5 (not r4) xdm is installed. ok, so i tried running it on a sun, running real r5, on the same network - i get a widget tree, but it's always for 'twm icon manager' anybody know of any patches for (a) twm or (b) editres that i should look at? 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67308">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67308" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hi xperts, this is a repost (no one responded to my desperate yell 8-( i can't believe there is no xview wizards any more 8-)... i'm using sliders in my xview apps, usually with editable numeric field. but i seem to have no control over the length of this field. in some apps it appears long enough to keep several characters, in some - it cannot keep even the maximum value set by panel_max_value! as i understand, panel_value_display_length, which controls number of characters to be displayed in text items, doesn't work in the case of slider, despite the fact that <panel.h> contains the following bit: /* panel_multiline_text_item, panel_numeric_text_item, * panel_slider_item and panel_text_item attributes panel_notify_level = panel_attr(attr_enum, 152), panel_value_display_length = panel_attr(attr_int, 182), which gives a hint that this attribute can be used for sliders. but 1) setting this attribute gives nothing, and 2) xv_get'ting this attribute gives warning: bad attribute, and returns value 0. strange thing is that dec's port of xview gives plenty of space in a text fields, but not sun's xview... can someone share his experience in managing sliders in xview with me, and clear this problem? any help is very much appreciated. yuri@uk.ac.hw.phy 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67310">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67310" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 can anybody tell me if they know where i can obtain the source code for a polygon filling algorithm, or any other graphics orientated mailing lists that may be able to help me. thanks, paul. | paul jaques | | systems engineer, camborne school of mines, | | rosemanowes, herniss, penryn, cornwall. | | e-mail: pjaques@csm.ac.uk tel: stithians (0209) 860141 fax: (0209) 861013 | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67312">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67312" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 --- received from eei.eeiihy 353-1-2800455 93-04-26 12.28 -> vax.xpert..expo.lcs.mit.edu..inet -: - - - - - - - - - - > mail user in vax and internet 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67314">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67314" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i created a pixmap or drawable window, then used xdrawline() function drawed a line as below fingure: width = 300 | p1 | | \ | height = 300 | \|p3 i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size 300x300. but i draw line from p1(x1=270,y1=100) to p2(x2=500,y2=800). my question is, dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p3(x3 and y3) for me? if you calculate x3 and y3. x3 = 300; @ = art tan (( 800 - 100)/(500 - 270)) = 71.81 degrees; y3 = 100 + x3/tan(@) = 100 + 300/tan(71.81) = 198.58 ~= (integer) 199. how do i prove xdrawline() give me the right x3, y3 or not? please don't ask me why i don't created a 900x900 pixmap. no, i don't wan to. thanks in advance! raymond h. chui nswc n62 10901 new hampshire ave. silver spring, md 20903-5000 u.s.a. voice:1(301)394-3807 ext. 45 fax:1(301)394-4483 email:rchui@opal.nswc.navy.mil _ __ _ , __ /--' __. , , ____ ______ __/ /--/ / /_ . . o / \_(_(_(_/_/) ) )_(_) /) )_(_(_ / ( o (__/ / /_(_/_(_ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67315">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67315" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 comp.windows.x please igore my previouse calculation mistaked. please see the correct calculation. sorry! |> i created a pixmap or drawable window, then used xdrawline() function |> drawed a line as below fingure: |> width = 300 |> | p1 | |> | \ | height = 300 |> | \|p3 |> p2 |> i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size 300x300. |> but i draw line from p1(x1=270,y1=100) to p2(x2=500,y2=800). |> my question is, dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct |> p3(x3 and y3) for me? if you calculate x3 and y3. x3 = 300; @ = art tan (500 - 270)/(800 - 100)) = 18.19 degrees; y3 = 100 + (300 - 270)/tan(@) = 191.29 ~= 191 integer |> how do i prove xdrawline() give me the right x3, y3 or not? |> please don't ask me why i don't created a 900x900 pixmap. no, i don't |> wan to. |> thanks in advance! |> raymond h. chui |> nswc n62 |> 10901 new hampshire ave. |> silver spring, md 20903-5000 |> u.s.a. |> voice:1(301)394-3807 ext. 45 |> fax:1(301)394-4483 |> email:rchui@opal.nswc.navy.mil |> _ __ _ , __ |> /--' __. , , ____ ______ __/ /--/ / /_ . . o |> / \_(_(_(_/_/) ) )_(_) /) )_(_(_ / ( o (__/ / /_(_/_(_ raymond h. chui nswc n62 10901 new hampshire ave. silver spring, md 20903-5000 u.s.a. voice:1(301)394-3807 ext. 45 fax:1(301)394-4483 email:rchui@opal.nswc.navy.mil _ __ _ , __ /--' __. , , ____ ______ __/ /--/ / /_ . . o / \_(_(_(_/_/) ) )_(_) /) )_(_(_ / ( o (__/ / /_(_/_(_ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67319">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67319" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 : has anyone found a fix for the following problem? : client software: sunos 4.1.1, x11r5 : server hardware: sun ipc : server software: sunos 4.1.1, open windows 3.0 (w/ patch 100444-37) : a motif 1.2.2 application will periodically hang when run against the : openwindows 3.0 server (xnews). the pulldown is displayed but then no : button actions have any effect. sometimes pressing <return> will : unstick the application but not usually. it looks like the pulldown is : grabbing the focus and never letting go. other windows on the display : continue to get updated so the server isn't hanging. if i log in from : another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets : back to normal. the same application when run against other x servers : (including mit x11r5 xsun, decwindows, tektronix x terminal) has no : problems. this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a : work-around since most of our customers are openwindows users. i have seen the same problem using a sparcstation 10, solaris 2.1, ow 3.1. in my case, it happens far more often than "periodically". 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67321">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67321" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 update your 385 to hp-ux 9.0. you get an r5 server and libraries. greg hughes gmh@fc.hp.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67323">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67323" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> # i've gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days. (i |> # recently added it to my feed list.) is it just me, or is this group |> # near death? |> seen from the mailing list side, i'm getting about the right amount of |> traffic. and seen from my point of view, i get far too much articles to keep up with them. i am lucky if i can scan through the subjects from time to time. dipl.-inform. rainer klute i r b : immer richtig beraten univ. dortmund, irb postfach 500500 |)|/ tel.: +49 231 755-4663 d-w4600 dortmund 50 |\|\ fax : +49 231 755-2386 new address after june 30th: univ. dortmund, d-44221 dortmund 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67325">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67325" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i would be grateful to anyone who knows about an x-windows application that would emulate hp 2623a graphics in a manner similar to the way tek graphics windows are implemented in xterm. thanks for you help. -- oleg roytburd (oleg@sdd.comsat.com) 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67326">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67326" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 excerpts from netnews.comp.windows.x: 23-apr-93 x toolkits paul prescod@undergrad.m (1132) i get the impression andrew is from the fsf, but i don't know what it looks like either. the andrew user interface system is supported, maintained, enhanced, and distributed by the andrew consortium, carnegie mellon. the distribution terms are those of the x consortium, not the gnu public license. thus anyone can commercially exploit the andrew code without restriction. (to encourage membership, however, we defer universal release of the latest versions until consortium members have had an opportunity to explore the new capabilities.) to se what auis looks like, you can try a remote demo. you need an x server (r5 is best) on a machine linked to the internet. give the finger help@atk.itc.cmu.edu for instructions. note: the demo version does not use the motif-look-and-feel scrollbar, but one is available. you can use it on the demo by changing an option in the ~/preferences file and starting a new editor. the andrew toolkit component of auis is ideal if you want to build applications using compound documents. andrew's major feature is its architecture for recursive embedding of objects: equation in table in figure in text, for example. this architecture extends to areas not usually found in toolkits, including file stream formats, cut/paste, and andrew also provides some of the most commonly requested applications: word processor, spreadsheet, drawing editor, and font editor (the latter two are in version 5.2 which will be generally released on the xr6 tape in december.) fred hansen director, andrew consortium 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67328">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67328" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 on export.lcs.mit.edu directory contrib, and avahi.inria.fr directory pub/xpm: xpm-3.2f-to-3.2g.patch.z xpm-3.2g.tar.z /* copyright 1990-93 groupe bull -- see license conditions in file copyright */ * history of user-visible changes * 3.2g (93/04/26) enhancements: - much faster close colors - piping from/to compressed files now handles gnu's gzip (.z) format - added xpmcolorkey attribute - ability to specify which visual's colors to use (ie: now it's possible to read in a pixmap in a color visual, but use the colors specified for monochrome). - added -mono, -grey4, -grey and -color options to sxpm to demonstrate the xpmcolorkey attribute. - jason patterson <jasonp@fitmail.qut.edu.au> bugs corrected: - fixed bug where redefining "none" as a pixel stopped mask generation - minor svr4 defines for <string.h> - fixed annoying closecolor bug related to read/write color cells - fixed minor bug in color value -> pixel overloading - manual updated to include new red/green/blue closeness attributes - jason patterson <jasonp@fitmail.qut.edu.au> - the top imakefile was missing the depend target - sxpm/imakefile fixed so that -l../lib is set before the standard library location. - vivek khera <khera@cs.duke.edu> - lib/xpmp.h now defines bcopy as memcpy for vms (required by recent versions of vms) - j. daniel smith <dsmith@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com> - the lib/imakefile didn't work with x11r4. arnaud le hors - lehors@sophia.inria.fr - bull research france, koala project 
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 : > the application creates window with a button "quit" and "press me". : > the button "press me" pops up a dialog box. the strange feature of : > this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the : > first time. if i try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time), : > it is *much* slower. : the shell is waiting for the window-manager to respond to its : positioning request. the window-manager is not responding because : it thinks the window is already in the right place. : exactly *why* the two components get into this sulk is unclear to : me; all information greatly received. the only time i've seen similar behaviour is when an x application forked a child without setting close on exec on the x display connection file descriptor. the shell waited for a configurenotify event that never arrived because it got picked up by the child. sometimes the shell correctly got the configurenotify if the timing was 'right'. gary phillips | email: gary@ioc.co.uk phone: +44 81 528 9864 | phones@cix.compulink.co.uk fax: +44 81 528 9878 | 
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 |> can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun |> openwindows |> enviornment ? i've checked through all the documentation but can not |> find any clues. sun's openwindows imake is broken. i suggest installing imake-pure, mit's x11r5 imake. you can get it from ftp.germany.eu.net in file /pub/x11/misc/imake/imake-pure.tar.z (117807 byte). dipl.-inform. rainer klute i r b : immer richtig beraten univ. dortmund, irb postfach 500500 |)|/ tel.: +49 231 755-4663 d-w4600 dortmund 50 |\|\ fax : +49 231 755-2386 new address after june 30th: univ. dortmund, d-44221 dortmund 
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 does anybody have an x server for nt that they're willing to share files or experiences? bill steer 
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 i've been offerred an old 4-bits/pixel greyscale xterminal. aside from the "real people have already upgraded to risc architecture r5 servers", do i want this xterminal? i'm concerned about the 4-planes...i've only ever heard of 1 (mono) and 8 (colour) planes -- will i have any concerns with this 4-plane unit? [specifically related to 4-planes vs 1 or 8] thanks! -c- ps: all r5 apps run on r4/r3 servers,right? 
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 i know that this is not the correct place to post this, but i have exhausted all other logical options. i used to be on the info-unix newsgroup mailer. the mailers mysteriously quite coming around the end of last year. all e-mails requesting that i be placed back on the list have been ignored. i have been unable to locate the administrator of this list. if anyone knows of the internet address that i can send a the request to get back on this list, can you please send it to me. if you don't know of this specific newsgroup mailer, i would appreciate the address of *any* unix-related newsgroup. thanks. slosser@ntsc-rd.navy.mil ps - sorry for the non-x-related question. 
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 |even 24bit truecolor machines are in most cases running an emulated |8 bit pseudocolor visual, only to get standard x clients, motif apps and |thelike to run. i strongly suppose you to emulate at least: |> 24 bit truecolor. should be no problem, only some translation. rounding | should not make big misfits depends on the nature of the "rounding." x allows the user to do bit arithmetic on pixel values, (i.e., xor foreground and backgroun pixel values together to calculate a foreground color that when used with a function of gxxor fill change foreground to background and vice-versa). if your rounding does not preserve these types of calculations then clients that use them will break. kenneth whaley (408) 748-6347 kubota pacific computer, inc. email: whaley@kpc.com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara, ca. 95051 
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 does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit? does sun support moolit? is moolit available on sparcstations? moolit (motif/open look intrinsic toolkit allows developers to build applications that can switch between motif and open look at run-time, while olit only gives you open look. internet: chunhong@vnet.ibm.com 
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 this may be an faq, but i dont know where to get the faq list! my openlook application has a few buttons. the first button turns red(gets highlighted?) as soon as the sprite(mouse) is moved into the application window. how do i suppress this? 
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 we have a program written with x11r5 and motif 1.2.1. it runs fine on the sun x11r5 server and macx. when that program is run under the sparc 2 and the ow server, the program crashed itself along with the server. it crashed before the first window had showed up. i got the following error from x. xio: fatal io error 32 (broken pipe) on x server "perot:0.0" after 62 requests (59 known processed) with 0 events remaining. the connection was probably broken by a server shutdown or killclient. i have run the program with xmon and below is the last twenty lines or so from xmon before both the program and server crashed. ............request: getproperty delete: false window: win 00900001 property: atm 00000074 type: atm 00000074 long-offset: 00000000 ..............reply: getproperty format: 00 type: <none> bytes-after: 00000000 ............request: getinputfocus ..............reply: getinputfocus revert-to: parent focus: win 0040000d ............request: changeproperty mode: replace window: win 00900001 property: atm 00000074 type: atm 00000074 format: 08 data: 42 00 00 01 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 75 00 00 00 00 ............request: getinputfocus please email to me if you have any idea of the above problem. thanks in advance. mw chiu mwchiu@tigr.org 
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 no, it isn't. it is the "x window system", or "x11", or "x" or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium.... there is no such thing as "x windows" or "x window", despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags. i used to think this way, and not just about x. for example, incorrect english constructs such as "its raining" or "it's window id" annoy me. however, there comes a time when popular usage starts to dictate the way things really are in the world. well, yes and no. i don't particularly want this discussion to spark a lengthy debate, but i do think it's worth pointing out that "popular usage" is not always sufficient excuse. in this case, for example, i think an appropriate parallel may be found in the pronunciation of proper names: if people commonly misspelled or mispronounced your name, would you feel compelled to change it? probably the same is true of x. "the x window system", "x", "x11", and related monickers are proper names in the same sense that any product name is a proper name. in fact, some of them are *trademarked* names. the fact that many people get them wrong is largely beside the point. as for the trade publications that promulgate things like "x window" or "x.windows" or any of the other nonsensical variants one often sees, consider the fact that these publications are supposedly written by *journalists*. would you trust the facts of a journalist who couldn't be bothered to get the name of his/her source right? would you trust a product review by someone who got the name of the product wrong? popular usage is as it may be, but i for one am all for holding people who claim to be journalists to a higher standard of correctness. indeed, the fact that x won out over news was really down to popular opinion (i know, we all think it's(!) technically superior as well!). x11 technically superior to news? well, in *some* alternate universe perhaps ... 
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 has anyone seen source to an xterm package ready to perform unisys 22403 terminal emulation. got a clunker... and ... got a connect! return: mikell@cactus.org ////////////////////////////mikell@cactus.org///////////////////////// ////////////////////calame linebarger graham & pena/////////////////// //////////////////////////////attys at law//////////////////////////// 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67347">
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 [please accept the following announcement for comp.windows.x.announce. -gf] a completely revamped version of the x11 browser interface to archie, xarchie, is now available as export.lcs.mit.edu:/contrib/xarchie-2.0.tar.z for those not familar with archie or xarchie, i include part of the manpage intro: xarchie is an x11 browser interface to the archie internet information system using the prospero virtual filesystem protocol. archie provides information about files available for ftp anywhere on the internet; xarchie displays this information using an easy-to-use, point-and-click interface. xarchie allows you to further explore ftp sites by examining directories returned as query matches, and allows you to retrieve files located this way. xarchie 2.0 has been extensively tested on r4, r5, and a variety of other flavors of x, and on a wide range of machines. a summary of the new features (from the readme) follows: * major improvements include: - multiple selections allowed in browser for use with other new features (fwf multilist widget). - ability to expand directories in browser. - real fully-integrated ftp implementation. - ability to save and reload query results, as well as print them. - ability to resort results, and sort results by user-definable pseudo-weights. - online help browser. - color resources, done so that they don't break mono displays. - fwf fileselector widget for local file operations. - makefile.dst's supplied for the imake-impaired. george ferguson arpa: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu dept. of computer science uucp: rutgers!rochester!ferguson university of rochester vox: (716) 275-2527 rochester ny 14627-0226 fax: (716) 461-2018 
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 i am glad and proud to announce the new mailing-list for the pd motif c++ bindings. i got over 40 replies in about one week of people interested in such a list, and the software has now been properly installed, so the list is now up and running. for those interested in joining, please send e-mail to that extend to 'motif++-request@cv.ruu.nl' or 'rvloon@cv.ruu.nl'. the blurb everyone who joins gets follows, as well as the original announcement for where motif++ can be obtained. enjoy! 8< - 8< - welcome to the motif++ mailing list! the motif++ mailing list is a mailing list dedicated to motif++, the pd c++ wrapper library for motif, where people can ask questions about motif++, swap stories, and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the all requests of an administrative nature, like subscription, removal, etc. should be directed to motif++-request@cv.ruu.nl all e-mail sent to motif++@cv.ruu.nl will be sent to the entire list, so please make sure when using 'vacation' type programs that will reply to messages automatically, that the address for the mailing-list is excluded from auto-replies. enjoy! ronald van loon | in theory, there is no difference (rvloon@cv.ruu.nl) | between theory and practice. 3dcv group, utrecht | the netherlands | in practice however, there is. 8< - 8< - hello motif world, over the past half year there have been a lot of relatively minor changes to the motif++ bindings. imake support has been improved, a few defaults have been changed, and a lot of other small things have been added. this is basically a release which drops the 'gamma' status. next release will incorporate some improvements by stefan schwarz, and possibly will support x11r5 and motif 1.2.x. note to all of those who keep copies of the archive: please retrieve this distribution (during off-peak hours), and delete all previous copies. here is the original announcement: the university of lowell, supported by a grant of the open software foundation, has developed a wrapper-library, that encapsulates motif widgets in c++ classes. all resources of these widgets can now be set through member-functions, while objects can be used in callback-functions. the library was made available for free or nominal cost for anonymous ftp at 129.63.1.1. however, the library contained a large number of bugs and oversights, and only worked under x11r3. due to lack of subsequent fundings, the bindings are no longer actively supported by the university of lowell. i, ronald van loon, at a certain point last year, have taken the lowell bindings, fixing the bugs i came across, adding missing memberfunctions, and enhancing functionality and made the bug-fixed library available for the general public for anonymous ftp (made possible by rick murphy at dec). new release i am now pleased to announce a new and updated release of the motif++ this release offers: - full motif1.1 and x11r4 support - support for xbae widgetset - two additional widgets, written by myself, that can be used to indicate progress in an application. - imake support. nb: this release relies heavily on the existence of imake and its config files on your site. i have tried to provide the bindings with a standard makefile, tweakable for those unfortunates without imake. i have not severely tested the standard makefile though. contact me if you have problems. the reason for calling this a gamma release lies in the fact that i do not have a multitude of platforms to test the imake-files on. - lots of testfiles (even somewhat useful programs) - an article i wrote on the usage of motif, x and c++, previously posted on usenet. where to get the new motif bindings ftp: anonymous ftp at decuac.dec.com (192.5.214.1), directory /pub/x11. note: please be patient as the network link is quite slow. please do not ftp large files during working hours. also note that there is also a motif++.31.jan.92.tar.z file at this site; this is an old version of the bindings. e-mail: those who don't have ftp can send me e-mail, and i will send the bindings by e-mail. those who use the bindings and find bugs, or see room for improvement, please contact me, and i will try to incorporate them in a future release (in case of bugs, a bug-fix of course ;-). more information contact me at "rvloon@cv.ruu.nl". if you are desperate, then you can call me at +31 30 506711 (that is utrecht, the netherlands; those within the netherlands call 030-506711). enjoy! ronald van loon | in theory, there is no difference (rvloon@cv.ruu.nl) | between theory and practice. 3dcv group, utrecht | the netherlands | in practice however, there is. 
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 i'm writing an application running under x (using motif), and i need to do some stuff when the application quits. now, when i shut down my x windows session, it doesn't seem to send a sigterm (or whatever) signal to my application (i'm trapping various signals like that). therefore, i thought i could use an x signal to check for my top level window being destroyed. however i seem to get destroynotify events whenever i move windows. is there any way for me to check that the window is actually being destroyed (some field to check or some combination of events?). replies by e-mail please and i will summarise. thanks for any help, // ian@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk // 
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 i try to unsubscribe from this group by sending an email but that doesn't work. could some one tell me the listserv address and command for me to unsubcribe ? i am leaving this friday (30th april 93) and the mail box will overflow soon after that. philip nguyen research engineer flexible manufacturing research and development centre (fmr&d) mcmaster university 1280 main st. west hamilton, on l8s 4l7 voice: (416) 529-7070 ext 2902 or 7343 fax: (416) 572-7944 e-mail: phil@flex.eng.mcmaster.ca 
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 hi all! i tried to run softpc, a pc emulation software program, installed on a silicon graphics workstation from a human design system (hds) x terminal, and everything went fine, except the fonts could not be converted from one type of format to the other - hds uses different font format from sgi worksation. so, i have the following questions: 1. how do you resolve different font formats from different machines? 2. is there a program to convert one type of font format to another? if you have similar problems/experiences and have found a solution, please let me know. your help will be greatly appreciated! thank you in advance for your help and information. tom nguen edwind@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov 
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 get xarchie 2.0 instead. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 i'm working on an x11r5 application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps. the x11r5 documentation says: "usually, a window manager creates these colormaps." i wonder what window manager the writer had in mind. neither twm or mwm seem to create standard colormaps. standard colormaps were spec'd with the intention that window managers would make them available. this doesn't mean that every window manager author in the world immediately dropped everything they were doing and implemented this at top priority. the esge server we ship makes the xa_rgb_best_map available at startup. it doesn't wait for window managers to do it. of course, one can use xstdcmap to create standard colormaps. however, xstdcmap doesn't seem to try very hard to avoid conflicts with the default colormap. when i use standard colormaps created by xstdcmap, the rest of my display goes black. so it seems as if use of standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended to avoid. perhaps if every application used standard colormaps, things would be wonderful. but not many applications seem to use standard colormaps. does your hardware have only one clut? since standard colormaps typically devour all 256 entries, there is no way it can avoid displacing the entire default colormap if your hardware has only one i don't believe standard colormaps are intended to aboid possible colormap flashing between clients using the default coilormap. rather, colormap flashing will be avoided between two clients that use the same standard colormap. an example would be two clients that need a full color range would both use xa_rgb_best_map (or whatever it's called under x11r5). if you are trying to avoid colormap flashing with the default colormap, your best bet is to try to load all the colors you use into that colormap. if you can't do that, then you'll get flashing on a one hw clut framebuffer. now if your window manager used the same standard colormap as your client, this flashing could also be avoided. perhaps some window managers have command line options for selecting standard colormaps? -paul pmartz@dsd.es.com evans & sutherland 
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 can someone tell me in 25 words or less how to compile posix message catalogs so that i can use them with catgets, catopen, etc. i know what the format for the catalogs is, but don't know how to compile them. please reply to chas@blackwhite.com thanks in advance, black & white software, inc. | leaders in systems & software solutions 2155 s. bascom ave. suite 210 | contact black & white for information on campbell, ca 95008 | x windows & osf/motif software & support (408) 369-7400 | osf/motif & ms-windows gui builders (408) 369-7406 | add on widgets, editors and help systems info@blackwhite.com | c++ and ada motif bindings 
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 1993 andrew tutorial technical conference when: thursday and friday, june 24 and 25, 1993 (deadline for registration: june 4, 1993) where: carnegie mellon university in pittsburgh, pennsylvania. sponsor: andrew consortium of cmu's school of computer science. schedule: the tutorial will be on thursday, followed by dinner and the annual meeting. the conference proper will be on friday. all conference attendees are welcome at the annual meeting. wednesday, june 23 check in: after 4:00 pm informal reception: 7:30 pm thursday, june 24 tutorial: 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 pm conference dinner: 6:30 pm annual meeting: 8:00 pm friday, june 25 technical conference: 9:00 am - 5:00 pm cost: tutorial fee includes breaks, lunch and tutorial materials: $100 conference fee includes conference dinner, breaks and proceedings: $100 rooms (student housing): $50 / night housing is tight around the campus area, so please register soon. if you prefer to stay in off-campus housing, please contact us for suggestions. mary anne cowden will be handling registration. you can contact her by email, mc8b+@andrew.cmu.edu, or by phone, (412) 268-6710. registration form please complete the attached form and return it to: mary anne cowden andrew consortium technical conference carnegie mellon university smith hall 106 5000 forbes avenue pittsburgh, pa 15213-3890 <- cut along here -> name: ______________________________________________ address: ______________________________________________ organization: ______________________________________________ email: ______________________________________________ phone: ______________________________________________ tutorial $ ___________ $100 conference $ ___________ $100 housing $ ___________ $50/night total enclosed $ ___________ please make checks payable to carnegie mellon university. 
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 these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions. 1. if my application depends on modifiers, what is the best lookup method? my choices are to call xgetmodifiermapping() for each key press with a modifier, or make the call once at the init of the app and store the modifiers in a lookup table. i would like to do it the second way, but i can't seem to get the notify when the user uses xmodmap to remap the modifiers. i know that when an app calls xsetmodifiermapping() a mappingnotify event is generated (non-maskable) which i can pick up and modify my internal table. but, i don't seem to get any notify events when the user uses xmodmap. if i use xt, all o'reilly has to say is '...is automatically handled by xt...'. if i use xlib, ala xnextevent(), i get nothing. this all stems from problems with users of the sun 4/5 keyboard and the numlock; plus various alt/meta/etc. modifier 2. i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window. i want it at the same y coord, and their right/left sides touching. what i need to ask for is the x,y coord of the window manager's border for the main window. this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget(), immediately checking the x,y after the move and seeing that it is right, and in their next callback asking for the x,y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border. any help would be most appreciated. darcy_mccallum@mentorg.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67374">
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 i posted this about tow weeks ago but never saw it make it (then again i've had some problems with the mail system). apologies if this appears for the second time: usually when i start up an application, i first get the window outline on my display. i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen. yet when i specify the -geometry option the window appears right away, the properties specified by the -geometry argument. the question now is: how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick? i've tried explicitly setting window size and position, but that did alter the normal program behaviour. thanks for any hints ---> robert ps: i'm working in plain x, using tvtwm. * robert gasch * der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins * * oracle engineering * freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch * * de meern, nl * auf gewalt in frage stellt * * rgasch@nl.oracle.com * - einstuerzende neubauten * ----------------------- headers ------------------------ from uupsi7!expo.lcs.mit.edu!xpert-mailer thu apr 22 17:24:28 1993 remote from aolsys received: from uupsi7 by aolsys.aol.com id aa19841; thu, 22 apr 93 17:10:35 edt received: from srmftp.psi.com by uu7.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-psi/psinet) via smtp; id aa02784 for ; thu, 22 apr 93 12:04:36 -0400 received: from expo.lcs.mit.edu by srmftp.psi.com (4.1/3.1.072291-psi/psinet) id aa17104; thu, 22 apr 93 10:19:31 edt received: by expo.lcs.mit.edu; thu, 22 apr 93 06:57:38 -0400 received: from enterpoop.mit.edu by expo.lcs.mit.edu; thu, 22 apr 93 06:57:37 -0400 received: by enterpoop.mit.edu (5.57/4.7) id aa27271; thu, 22 apr 93 06:57:14 -0400 received: from usenet by enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu (xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu);contact usenet@enterpoop if you have questions. to: xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu message-id: <3873@nlsun1.oracle.nl> organization: oracle europe 
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 excerpts from misc: 27-apr-93 re: x toolkits sivesh pradhaan@rebels.b (423) i do not have finger!!! so is there any other way of accessing this service like mail server or telnet or ftp? you can use telnet: % xhost +atk.itc.cmu.edu % telnet atk.itc.cmu.edu 79 run-demo 
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<answer instance="comp.windows.x67377" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 dear sun and windows people, i am running sun workstations with sunos 4.1.1 and vanilla x11 r5. i have a bunch of xterminals as well. today i had my xdm fail. at about 9:30 it was impossible to login to a host from an xterminal. the message was the "xdm too many retransmissions". in my xdm-errors file i had the following entries: error (pid 7423): server for display :0 terminated unexpectedly: error (pid 7927): warning: keyboard on display :0 could not be error (pid 7423): server for display :0 terminated unexpectedly: i also had: error (pid 7457): warning: keyboard on display :0 could not be error (pid 7423): server for display :0 terminated unexpectedly: error (pid 7462): warning: keyboard on display :0 could not be error (pid 7423): server for display :0 terminated unexpectedly: also, at the console, the login box would come up for about 2 seconds and then it would go away. it would do this continuously. i could login from another workstation to the hosts in question, however, i could not login on the console. i tried killing xdm and restarting it but that didn't help. i finally rebooted all the hosts. (which hurts when done in the middle of the day). any help would be appreciated. phil neal, systems programmer, statistics department gn-22 university of washington, seattle, wa. 98195 usa | 206-685-1627 "look, another bit!" -- repo man (the movie) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67378">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67378" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am looking for information on any work that deals with real-time support in x-windows????!! would be happy if you could provide any pointers or information concurrent has a product called realtimex (tm) that is a set of real-time extensions to the x window system. realtimex is currently supported on the concurrent series 7000 and series 8000 with the ga5000 graphics accelerator. if you need/want more info, let me know. - sam black once you remove the absurdity from human existence, there isn't much left. / _______/__ /__/______/ / black@westford.ccur.com concurrent /_________/ computer corporation 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67379">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67379" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 for image display, about 10 frames per second seems to be the lower limit for interactive operations. for just bringing up an image for viewing less than 1 second seems to be a good number. of course the measure of response time should be based on the applications you are planning to run. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67382">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67382" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget. is this possible? right now, all i get is the bitmap -- no sign of the label. any help would be appreciated. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67383">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67383" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we have a sun 3/80 and we have just acquired a cg8 frame buffer card. the cg8 is supposed to support both a 24-bit color visual and a monochrome visual. the default visual for the xnews server is the monochrome, and we are unable to change it to the 24-bit visual. we have tried using xgetvisualinfo to get a visual of depth 24, but had no success. xdpyinfo gives no information about a 24-bit deep visual, only monochrome. there are two possible solutions: if someone has patches for x11r5 xsun server, could they forward them to us? otherwise, could someone instruct us how to access the 24-bit color in openwindows? jon herlocker email: herlock@lclark.edu lewis & clark college portland, or 97219 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67384">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67384" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi, netters! i've just built x11r5 pl 21 under solaris 2.1. i've used the multi-screen patch, as well as the r5.sunos... patch and everything builds great, except for that error message xsun gives me upon startup. it says: "cannot set default font path '[stuff deleted]'" and "cannot set default font 'fixed'". if i supply the -fp option, it doesn't complain about the font path but still complains about the font. i have symlinks from /usr/lib/ to the place where my distribution lives. could somebody help me? joel reymont ! z-code software corporation ! e-mail: joel@z-code.com 4340 redwood hwy, suit b.50, san rafael, ca 94903 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67385">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67385" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we've just recently upgraded our x11 to r5 and are now running into problems with some of our applications that use motif 1.1. it appears that pointer to the widget being passed to the callback function (i.e., the "w" of (w, client, call) ) is nil. the client and call pointers are okay in some instances, but bogus in other instances. we are running sunos 4.1.2 on a sun 4. after compiling x11r5 and all 23 patches (with the motifbc flag set), we recompiled motif and then we recompiled the application. did we skip a step or leave something out? is there a flag that we should have used? should we have left motif alone? any answers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. kathy saint || "she's a witch!! she's a witch!!." "i'm not dead yet." || "how can you tell she's a witch?" || "she looks like one!!" saint@mitchell.hac.com || - "monthy python & the holy grail" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67390">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67390" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi there (i posted this to comp.windows.x.intrinsics but got no response, so i'm posting here.) i'm wanting to connect a digitiser made for pcs into my workstation (an hp 720). it is my understanding the x windows can understand a variety of input devices including digitiser tablets. however, this digitiser makes use of the serial port, so there would seem to be a need to have a special device driver. the hp manual pages say that the hp x server will accept x input from devices listed in the /usr/lib/x11/x*devices file (* = display number). i shouldn't think i would be able to simply insert /dev/rs232c as an input device in this file and expect a digitiser to work. but maybe i'm wrong. am i? what i would like to know is: does anybody out there have a digitiser connected to their workstation for use as a pointer for x (rather than just as input to a specific x application)? if so, what were the steps required for installation? did you need a special device driver? did the manufacturer supply it? are there generic public domain device drivers around? (i understand that digitisers generally use only a couple of standard formats.) any help would be greatly appreciated. vaughan clarkson ___________ email: vaughan@ewd.dsto.gov.au engineering ph.d. student | phone: +61-8-259-6486 & glider pilot ^ fax: +61-8-259-5254 ---------------------------------(_)--------------------------------- 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67392">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67392" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 w/o actually executing it? somehow one of my xterminal users has made it so that a click of mb3 (right) automatically kills all clients - oh my :-( john r. vanderpool internet: fish@eosdata.gsfc.nasa.gov nasa/gsfc/hstx vox: 301-513-1683 "so you run, and you run, to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking, racing around to come up behind you again." -rw/dg 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67393">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67393" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i read about the code you can put in to most applications so that the virtual desktop stuff in tvtwm doesn't confuse them (or is the application confusing the virtual-ness? [chicken & the egg?] but wanted to see if it has been applied to a version of xroach i never could quite get ssetroot to work either? any suggestions. luckily xv -root -quit does the trick for the most part also, i'ld be quite interested in hearing more about the icon region for each virtual window under tvtwm that i read a thread on last week john r. vanderpool internet: fish@eosdata.gsfc.nasa.gov nasa/gsfc/hstx vox: 301-513-1683 "so you run, and you run, to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking, racing around to come up behind you again." -rw/dg 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67394">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67394" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine: excerpts from mail: 29-apr-93 re: ol{v}wm 3 virtual keybo.. ito2@aodc.gov.au (554) with regard to : i have the following lines in my .xresources: olwm.keyboardcommands: full olvwm.keyboardcommands: full olwm.grabvirtualkeys: true olvwm.grabvirtualkeys: true i have : openwindows.keyboardcommands: full openwindows.virtualgrabkeys : false which seems to work. cheers! gary riseborough phone : +61 2 563 gary@aodc.gov.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67395">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67395" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm running xterm under x11r5, motif 1.1, mwm and unix svr4 on a unisys 386 based machine. my default shell is /bin/csh or the c shell. whenever i run xterm, i get the following message before the first c shell prompt: warning: no access to tty; thus no job control in this shell... after this, i can't run any job control commands like fg, bg etc. also, i can't run another xterm from the command line of this xterm (i can only launch additional xterms from a .mwmrc menu). i'd appreciate some help with this problem, or pointers to where i can get some help. by the way, my environment variable term is set to xterm. saad mufti personal library software e-mail : mufti@pls.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67397">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67397" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 if found, it answers to the name of 'contrib/xv-3.00.tar.z'. before i even think about getting this, is it going to be posted to comp.sources.x at any time in the near future? greg sands. | department of engineering science ----------- | university of auckland g.sands@auckland.ac.nz | new zealand. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67398">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67398" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've found a problem in the use of xlib functions regarding re-entrancy. i decided to implement an animated cursor (using 6 created cursors) by calling xdefinecursor from a sig_alrm signal handler. this is used to indicate we are waiting for a operator request to complete. (on a production control system). i was redrawing the screen underneath the animated cursor and then restoring the standard cursor when complete. i found dumped core , and upon analysis it was when the sig_alrm handler was called during a xdrawstring call. xdrawstring was doing a bcopy (presumably an internal structure) when the xdefinecursor was called. presumably the (internal) structure that xdrawstring was manipulating was not in a stable state and sent xdefinecursor to where it shouldn't have been. has anyone else experienced this? is there any official documentation that says you should ensure this doesn't happen? or should bcopy() be atomic. we are running on sgi irix 4.0.1 with x11r4. regards, martin /\/\ : martin visser - electrical / software engineer / / /\ : engineering technology department / / / \ : bhp steel - slab and plate products division / / / /\ \ : p.o. box 1854 wollongong nsw 2500 australia \ \/ / / / : phone +61-42-75-7522 ext. 6207 \ / / / : fax +61-42-75-7038 \/\/\/ : e-mail visser@itwol.bhp.com.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67399">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67399" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> as i announced at the x technical conference in january, i would like |> to |> make imake-tex, the imake support for using the tex typesetting system, |> publically available. currently imake-tex is in beta test here at the |> computer science department of dortmund university, and i am looking |> for |> some more beta testers, preferably with different tex and imake |> installations. judging from the responses so far, i have not made clear enough in my article quoted above that imake-tex is not for installing tex, but for *using* it. with imake-tex, you will never again have to fiddle around with calling latex and its various utility programs (makeindex, bibtex). simply type "make" and your document's dvi file will be up-to-date. all you have to do is to write a simple imakefile and let imake generate a suitable makefile for you. here is such an imakefile: #include "tex.tmpl" paperformata4() simplelatextarget(document) the generated makefile provides the following commands: make depend: searching the tex source files for dependencies like \input{somefile} make dvi: generate an up-to-date dvi file make viewdvi: display it on your screen make ps: generate a postscript version of your document make viewps: display it make clean: remove unnecessary things make veryclean: remove even the dvi file make makefiles: generate makefiles in subdirectories if ... a) ...this seems attractive to you, b) ...you are willing to test imake-tex and send me a short test report, c) ...you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation (however, the german version is completed and included), then you are invited as a beta tester. i am looking forward to your e-mail. dipl.-inform. rainer klute i r b : immer richtig beraten univ. dortmund, irb postfach 500500 |)|/ tel.: +49 231 755-4663 d-w4600 dortmund 50 |\|\ fax : +49 231 755-2386 new address after june 30th: univ. dortmund, d-44221 dortmund 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67403">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67403" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 from 9150618 thu apr 29 16:36:43 1993 to: 9130037 status: r hello, folks... i am doing a uni. project and was wondering if you could supply with some specific info. or references for info. regarding 1). considerations for installation of xwindows in a hp 9000(unknown model) 2). motif, openlook, xtoolkit, linux???? 3). x11, x11r.... 4). glossary of any term on x we considering this software for the project which deals in image analysis... any info. would be greatly appreciated. please email to 9130037@golum.riv.csu.edu.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67404">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67404" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have written a server program which makes socket connections to many nodes and collects data from that nodes periodically. i need to display this data on my x application. i tried to invoke this server using xtaddapptimeout which works ok. but the problem here is some time there is delay in collecting data. so i doesn't returns to eventloop during that time and my application remains busy and it doesn't respond to users input. i button press events are queued and exected after server finished its task. now i am going to try appaddinput call. so that it reads pipe only when there is something to read in pipe. i am thinking of creating one pipe in which server will write and client which is my x application will read. now i have some doubts which you may be able to clarify. 1) when i fork a process. it will create to copy of my process. right !! now what does this two copies mean? two shells. where should i fork my application. what are the responsibilities of this processes. how should i call this processes.? 2) can i fork more than one processes. so that i can read from more than one servers input. samir patel spatel@cs.tamu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67405">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67405" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 does anyone know any sites/resources where i can find gadgets for the vuewm window manager? such as types,actions,icons for the file manager and event manager...etc.... tanks, all input appreciated.... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67407">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67407" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 is there an "official extension" to x which allows the use of audio? most of the x audio programs use system-specific ways to access the audio capabilities of the computer they run on. is there a hardware-independent way to do this (like the video extension xv)? thanks for any help. erik wilde (wilde@tik.ethz.ch) swiss federal institute of technology (eth zuerich) laboratory of computer engineering and networks (tik) eth-zentrum, etz g61.2, ch - 8092 zuerich phone: +41-1-254-7009 fax: +41-1-251-2504 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67413">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67413" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 no, not another false alarm, not a "it'll certainly be done by *next* week" message... no, this is the real thing. i repeat, this is *not* a drill! batten down the hatches, hide the women, and lock up the cows, xv 3.00 has finally escaped. i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me, broke down the office door, and fled the lab. it was last seen heading in the general direction of export.lcs.mit.edu at nearly 30k per second... if found, it answers to the name of 'contrib/xv-3.00.tar.z'. have a blast. i'm off to the vacation capital of the u.s.: waco, texas. and here is the first patch :-) the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv-3.00 under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff: *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:05:03 --- imakefile 1993/04/28 08:20:35 *** 209,215 **** objs4= xcmap.o programs= xv bggen vdcomp xcmap #if defined(havejpeg) || defined(havetiff) # ifdef havejpeg --- 209,218 ---- objs4= xcmap.o programs= xv bggen vdcomp xcmap ! all:: ! @echo "" ! @echo " did you remember to 'make depend' first?" ! @echo "" #if defined(havejpeg) || defined(havetiff) # ifdef havejpeg *** 222,238 **** subdirs = tiff # endif # define passcdebugflags makesubdirs($(subdirs)) - dependsubdirs($(dubdirs)) #endif all:: - @echo "" - @echo " did you remember to 'make depend' first?" - @echo "" - all:: @echo " building xv ..." @echo "" --- 225,236 ---- subdirs = tiff # endif # define passcdebugflags + # define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs($(subdirs)) #endif all:: @echo " building xv ..." @echo "" *** 259,267 **** srcs = $(srcs1) $(srcs2) $(srcs3) $(srcs4) - dependtarget() alltarget($(programs)) normalprogramtarget(xv,$(objs1),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) normalprogramtarget(bggen,$(objs2),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) --- 257,269 ---- srcs = $(srcs1) $(srcs2) $(srcs3) $(srcs4) alltarget($(programs)) + dependtarget() + #ifdef ihavesubdirs + dependsubdirs($(subdirs)) + #endif normalprogramtarget(xv,$(objs1),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) normalprogramtarget(bggen,$(objs2),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) *** 1.1 1993/04/28 08:33:13 --- xv.h 1993/04/28 08:19:31 *** 284,292 **** --- 284,298 ---- /* signal macros */ + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #define hold_sig sighold(sigalrm) + #define release_sig sigrelse(0) + #define pause_sig sigpause(0) + #else #define hold_sig sigblock(sigmask(sigalrm)) #define release_sig sigblock(0) #define pause_sig sigpause(0) + #endif /* default for most folks */ *** 318,323 **** --- 324,333 ---- #define random rand #define srandom srand #endif + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #define random() rand() + #define srandom(x) srand(x) + #endif *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:09:50 --- xcmap.c 1993/04/28 07:09:03 *** 9,15 **** --- 9,19 ---- /* include files */ #include <stdio.h> + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #include <string.h> + #else #include <strings.h> + #endif #include <ctype.h> #include <x11/xos.h> *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:17:41 --- tiff/imakefile 1993/04/28 08:53:34 *** 49,59 **** --- 49,69 ---- tif_compress.o: imakefile + #if hasgcc g3states.h: mkg3states.c t4.h -${rm} g3states.h + ${cc} -traditional -o mkg3states ${cflags} mkg3states.c + ./mkg3states > g3states.h || rm g3states.h + #else + g3states.h: mkg3states.c t4.h + -${rm} g3states.h ${cc} -o mkg3states ${cflags} mkg3states.c ./mkg3states > g3states.h || rm g3states.h + #endif depend:: g3states.h + clean:: + -${rm} mkg3states g3states.h dependtarget() george lindholm phone: (604) 822-4375 university computing services, ubc fax: (604) 822-5116 6356 agricultural road, vancouver, b.c., canada internet: lindholm@ucs.ubc.ca v6t 1z2 bitnet: usergnl@ubcmtsg 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67415">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67415" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget. is this possible? right now, all i get is the bitmap -- no sign of the label. that's expected. the first sentence describing the bitmap resource in the menubutton section of the "athena widget set - c language interface" documentation states bitmap a bitmap to display instead of the label. one way round this might be to make use of the button's backgroundpixmap resource, but remember that you, or a user of your application, won't be able to set it from a resource file. also, the button won't automatically be the size of the bitmap. the bitmap will be tiled if necessary, or you could set the button's dimensions to match its size. j.k.wight@newcastle.ac.uk department of computing science, university of newcastle, tel: +44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne, ne1 7ru, united kingdom. fax: +44 91 222 8232 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67417">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67417" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 the motif application consists of multiple transient shells as children of a single toplevel shell: | appshell |---| toplevelshell |---| transientshell | |-| transientshell | while a transient shell is popped-up, my application modifies the sensitivity of a button in the toplevel shell which is hidden by the transient shell window. when the transient shell is popped-down, the button sensitivity is correct but the button text remains unchanged (i.e., solid/shaded). subsequent selection of the button causes the text to revert to the correct visual state. when tracing event messages sent to the application, many of the events seen under mwm are not present under openwindows. if anyone has any suggestions or solutions please post or send me mail. thanks! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67418">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67418" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have a problem: i am not able to create a window with 24 bit planes. ... gave badmatch error on the createwindow request. as far as i can tell from the manual, the only attribute which may give a badmatch, is the colormap, if it belongs to a wrong visual. but the visual was correctly matched i got several answers, the most complete was from errol crary (errolc@tv.tv.tek.com): i have just looked at the r4 server listings (.../mit/server/dix/window.c ) and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error, even though my o'reilly book only says "borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly". 1- if ((class == inputonly) && ((bw != 0) || (depth != 0))) 2- /* find out if the depth and visual are acceptable for this screen */ 3- if (((vmask & (cwborderpixmap | cwborderpixel)) == 0) && (class != inputonly) && (depth != pparent->drawable.depth)) 4- if (((vmask & cwcolormap) == 0) && (class != inputonly) && ((visual != ancwopt->visual) || (ancwopt->colormap == none))) case 1 is inputonly which is not your case; it seems to be the o'reilly case. case 2 should not be the case since you got the visual for the screen. case 3 looks suspicious; you are giving no cwborder... in the attribute mask, and since the visual is not the parent depth, i would suspect you need to supply a border pixel from the new colormap you are going to use for this window. case 4 does not seem to be the problem since you do supply the cwcolormap in the attributes. thanks for your help internet: krs@kampsax.dk karsten spang phone: +45 36 77 22 23 kampsax data fax: +45 36 77 03 01 p.o. box 1142 dk-2650 hvidovre 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67419">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67419" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 sherman@lea.csc.ncsu.edu (chris sherman) gripes: it really bums me out that xv went shareware. xv's been shareware for about a year ... hadn't you noticed? i don't have a problem with this. john bradley has put a *hell* of a lot of work into xv, and if he feels that it's time to get some monetary reward from it, that's surely his right. can the author legally sell xv? xv uses tiff and jpeg code developed by others. did the author get permission to sell these works? had you bothered to consult the distribution terms of the ijg jpeg code (which are right there in the xv distribution), you would have observed that we specifically grant permission for use in shareware and commercial software. sam leffler's libtiff copyright also grants permission for unrestricted use including resale. my guess is that now nobody is going to want to help the author maintain the code anymore now that xv has become a commercial product, "commercial"? there's a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial, it's-illegal-to-copy-this- and-we'll-sic-our-lawyers-on-you software. i do agree that john's readme file could be a little clearer about what he means by personal use. regards, tom lane organizer, independent jpeg group 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67422">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67422" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> if ... |> a) ...this seems attractive to you, |> b) ...you are willing to test imake-tex and send me a short test |> report, |> c) ...you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation |> (however, the german version is completed and included), |> then you are invited as a beta tester. i am looking forward to your |> e-mail. please don't respond anymore, i have enough beta testers now. thank you. dipl.-inform. rainer klute i r b : immer richtig beraten univ. dortmund, irb postfach 500500 |)|/ tel.: +49 231 755-4663 d-w4600 dortmund 50 |\|\ fax : +49 231 755-2386 new address after june 30th: univ. dortmund, d-44221 dortmund 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67424">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67424" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 specify ramdomplacement (or randomplace ? ) in your .tvtwmrc. this places the windows not-interactively in pseudo - random positions on your screens. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67425">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67425" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 how can i capture buttonpress/buttonrelease events in multiple clients? i want to know if the user is still at the display before locking the screen. i can get keypress/keyrelease and pointer motion events, but if the user is pressing the mouse button in the same location (the mouse doesn't move) i can't capture the events. the o'reilly xlib programming manual (vol. 1) says on page 252; "only one client can select button events on any one window at one time, due to the grab that automatically takes place." any help would be appreciated. deryl steinert dus@ornl.gov 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67428">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67428" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 does anyone know of an x server for character cell terminals? doesn't have to be anything fancy, as long is it works. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67429">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67429" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 here follows a headerless (my editing) email message in full (except for the header) sent to me by congruent corporation today. i received it about 5 minutes ago, and still haven't read it. have fun. product overview allows existing unix/x applications to be hosted on windows nt includes common x support clients supports x terminals provides multiuser nt facilitates porting unix/x applications to window nt bsd behavior x programming libraries target market customers with unix/x applications who want to standardize on windows nt allows hosting on windows nt with minimal effort permits x clients on single windows nt system to support multiple users x servers can be x terminals, unix based, nt based, windows based bsd library behavior minimize unix porting effort layered above standard c libraries/winsock nt registry path/drive replacement bsd include file layout true berkeley sockets supplies common bsd functions missing from nt x programming libraries complete x.v11r5 libraries motif widget libraries motif uil registry based x configuration locator direct to windows gdi via "local socket" winnt:0 x support applications includes full set of x client applications motif window manager (mwm) multiuser nt capabilities ntnixterm: special adaptation of xterm special nt hosted command shell provides logname, home facilities multiple users on multiple x servers can simultaneously access single nt system x terminal support bootp to boot x terminals tftpd for font loading font server for scaled x fonts xremote for serial slip x info@com.congruent (congruent information) snail@lsl.co.uk "washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." quote by freire. poster by oxfam. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67432">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67432" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux - it must be free. - it must run on standard (monochrome) x with a small screen size (800x600) no motif/openlook etc. - it must compile under linux with gcc/g++. most generic unix software works ok. - it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips. or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps. - it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size (scrollable). i know of several such programs, idraw, xfig. tgif. i have no experience with any of them. features i would like in the programs are. - ability to draw circles, arcs, straight lines, boxes and arrows. - support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects. - support for texts in any size. - ability to move/copy/resize/rotate any part of the drawing. - ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component (e.g. a transistor symbol composed of three lines, an arrow and a circle) - any aid (numeric coordinates, screen grid) to align parts of the drawing. - less essential, but in fact very handy: preservation of connection. if i move one part of the drawing, the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing, stay connected. ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics, flow charts, logic diagrams, data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it. i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs? how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space, memory and cpu usage? are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67437">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67437" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 please subscribe me. e-mail: rpicas@porto.inescn.pt 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67438">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67438" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 the author of wcl (or the current care taker). his is the only name i found in the dist tree. i have tried to mail him at: david.smyth@ap.mchp.sni.de, but the mail bounced back. any help in finding him will be greatly appreciated. david@ap542.uucp david%ap542@ztivax.siemens.com nope, here i am: david@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov david smyth david@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov senior software engineer, (818)306-6193 (do not use v-mail yet!) cccp, x and object guru. office: 525/c165 jet propulsion lab, m/s 525-3660 4800 oak grove drive, pasadena, ca 91109 "that sun windows thingy, what's it called? you know, its really awful. x? motif? that's it - motif! yuck!" 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67439">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67439" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 please subscribe me. e-mail: rpicas@porto.inescn.pt 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67443">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67443" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 can anybody tell me anything about the availibility of non-roman fonts for x-windows? especially unicode and/or han idiographic fonts. also, how about conversion tools for getting pc/macintosh fonts into a format suitable for x? i would assume it is not too difficult for bitmap fonts. the faq's for this group and comp.fonts are not very helpful on these = matthew m. freedman = = u. of washington information systems mattf@cac.washington.edu = = 4545 15th ave. ne; 3rd floor (206) 543-5593 = = seattle, wa 98105 = 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67444">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67444" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 no, not another false alarm, not a "it'll certainly be done by *next* week" message... no, this is the real thing. i repeat, this is *not* a drill! batten down the hatches, hide the women, and lock up the cows, xv 3.00 has finally escaped. i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me, broke down the office door, and fled the lab. it was last seen heading in the general direction of export.lcs.mit.edu at nearly 30k per second... if found, it answers to the name of 'contrib/xv-3.00.tar.z'. have a blast. i'm off to the vacation capital of the u.s.: waco, texas. and here is the first patch :-) the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv-3.00 under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff: oops, i didn't get the signal processing right (thats what i get from doing the work on an ascii terminal). here is the fixed patch: *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:05:03 --- imakefile 1993/04/28 08:20:35 *** 209,215 **** objs4= xcmap.o programs= xv bggen vdcomp xcmap #if defined(havejpeg) || defined(havetiff) # ifdef havejpeg --- 209,218 ---- objs4= xcmap.o programs= xv bggen vdcomp xcmap ! all:: ! @echo "" ! @echo " did you remember to 'make depend' first?" ! @echo "" #if defined(havejpeg) || defined(havetiff) # ifdef havejpeg *** 222,238 **** subdirs = tiff # endif # define passcdebugflags makesubdirs($(subdirs)) - dependsubdirs($(dubdirs)) #endif all:: - @echo "" - @echo " did you remember to 'make depend' first?" - @echo "" - all:: @echo " building xv ..." @echo "" --- 225,236 ---- subdirs = tiff # endif # define passcdebugflags + # define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs($(subdirs)) #endif all:: @echo " building xv ..." @echo "" *** 259,267 **** srcs = $(srcs1) $(srcs2) $(srcs3) $(srcs4) - dependtarget() alltarget($(programs)) normalprogramtarget(xv,$(objs1),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) normalprogramtarget(bggen,$(objs2),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) --- 257,269 ---- srcs = $(srcs1) $(srcs2) $(srcs3) $(srcs4) alltarget($(programs)) + dependtarget() + #ifdef ihavesubdirs + dependsubdirs($(subdirs)) + #endif normalprogramtarget(xv,$(objs1),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) normalprogramtarget(bggen,$(objs2),$(deplibs),$(local_libraries),) *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:09:50 --- xcmap.c 1993/04/28 07:09:03 *** 9,15 **** --- 9,19 ---- /* include files */ #include <stdio.h> + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #include <string.h> + #else #include <strings.h> + #endif #include <ctype.h> #include <x11/xos.h> *** 1.1 1993/04/28 08:33:13 --- xv.h 1993/04/28 17:47:38 *** 284,292 **** --- 284,298 ---- /* signal macros */ + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #define hold_sig sighold(sigalrm) + #define release_sig sigrelse(sigalrm) + #define pause_sig sigpause(sigalrm) + #else #define hold_sig sigblock(sigmask(sigalrm)) #define release_sig sigblock(0) #define pause_sig sigpause(0) + #endif /* default for most folks */ *** 318,323 **** --- 324,333 ---- #define random rand #define srandom srand #endif + #if defined(sun) && defined(sysv) + #define random() rand() + #define srandom(x) srand(x) + #endif *** 1.1 1993/04/28 06:17:41 --- tiff/imakefile 1993/04/28 08:53:34 *** 49,59 **** --- 49,69 ---- tif_compress.o: imakefile + #if hasgcc g3states.h: mkg3states.c t4.h -${rm} g3states.h + ${cc} -traditional -o mkg3states ${cflags} mkg3states.c + ./mkg3states > g3states.h || rm g3states.h + #else + g3states.h: mkg3states.c t4.h + -${rm} g3states.h ${cc} -o mkg3states ${cflags} mkg3states.c ./mkg3states > g3states.h || rm g3states.h + #endif depend:: g3states.h + clean:: + -${rm} mkg3states g3states.h dependtarget() 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67448">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67448" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have found a situation which i think is a bug in x or motif, but i'm hoping is really just a mistake on my part. does anyone know anything about this problem........ - i am using an xmtextfield, and setting its xmnvalue to a hardcoded text string (ascii or kanji) either via xtsetvalues or xmtextsetstring. the problem is that when the xmtextfield is displayed, the text is getting truncated, depending on the setting of the environment variables lang (more specifically lc_all). when they are set to japanese, the text gets truncated. when they are set to english, everything works fine. i am taking the default for xmncolumns. (please note that hardcoding of text is not done in my actual application, just in my sample code to make things easier) - i am running motif 1.2, x11r5 via hpux9.01. my test program is set up to handle 16 bit kanji characters. i have remembered to do xtsetlanguageproc() prior to my mrminitialize and my font resources are set to japanese fonts. - don't know if this matters, but my dialog box and textfield is initially created with uil. the problem does not happen with xmtext. unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts in my application is not an acceptable alternative (way too much code to be modified while in beta!) i have a small test program which illustrates the problem if anyone wants it. my best guess is that either the x code or motif is not properly allocating memory for japanese, but since i don't have the source to look at it is just a guess. please let me know if this sounds familiar, or if you have a suggestion, or if you want the sample program. thanks!!!!!!!! swalker@bbn.com 617-873-8190 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67449">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67449" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> the shell is waiting for the window-manager to respond to its |> positioning request. the window-manager is not responding because |> it thinks the window is already in the right place. |> exactly *why* the two components get into this sulk is unclear to |> me; all information greatly received. this problem is caused by a bad interaction between the way olwm reparents windows, a misfeature of the x protocol, and a bug in the xt intrinsics. the intrinsics bug is that it ignores the (x,y) position given in reparentnotify events. olwm is structured in such a way that, when a window is popped down, the last event the client receives is a reparentnotify event. at this point, the intrinsics' notion of the shell's location is out of date. if a setvalues is done using the same (x,y) position, the intrinsics thinks it needs to move the shell, so it issues a configurewindow request to move it there. however, a (mis)feature of the x protocol is that a configurewindow request that has no effect will generate no configurenotify event. the intrinsics thus waits for an event that will never arrive, and times out after wmtimeout has expired. (actually, things are somewhat more complex because the request is redirected to the window manager, but the net result is the same.) the solution is for the intrinsics to note the (x,y) positioning information in reparentnotify events. this has been implemented and is available in x11r5 public fix 20. this is xbug 5513 for those of you who are interested in gorier details. s'marks stuart w. marks stuart.marks@eng.sun.com window systems technology 2550 garcia ave. m/s 21-228 sunsoft, inc. mountain view, ca 94043 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67452">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67452" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've found that i have to add the "-8" option for displaying jpegs with the new version. for some reason, if i don't, it goes into 24-bit mode and the resulting image is displayed with 216 colors (from a 6x6x6 array) instead of 256 and looks grainier. since i'm on the ubiquitous 8-bit pseudo color display i would have thought it could tell that. this is news. this is your | peter scott, nasa/jpl/caltech brain on news. any questions? | (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67454">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67454" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 this is a repost... i like to find out more about this also... *** message part 2: text **************************************** the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui. but what does this mean exactly? - do they mean that all "cose-complient" apps will have the motif look and feel? - do they mean that all "cose-complient" apps will use the motif toolkit api? - do they mean both of the above? - is it possible that there will be a motif-api complient toolkit with an openlook look & feel? - how about an olit/xview/oi/interviews api toolkit with a motif l & f? (i know oi already does this, but will this be considered cose-complient?) - will there be more than one "standard" toolkit api or l & f supported? - how does using tooltalk fit in with motif? this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net... feel free to e-mail or followup. -- gil tene "some days it just doesn't pay - -- devil@imp.hellnet.org to go to sleep in the morning." - -- devil@diablery.10a.com - 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67455">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67455" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 yesterday i changed the us-keyboard of my sparc10 with a german keyboard. and now i cannot get any "alt graph" characters ('tilde' usw.). when i exit from x i can get the characters, but not under x. can anybody give me some hints, where to check for the correct installation of the keyboard. martin kreutzer 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67456">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67456" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 answers please by e-mail, since not all groups in the header are carried here. hi! personally, i like nextstep very much. even more when i realise how much a burden ordinary x or windows programming is. i also like objective-c better than i like c++. but, sometimes the restrictions are there. for instance it sometimes has to be ms-windows or x. now i'm looking for pointers to tools on those environments that come close to nextstep, the appkit etc. also, environs that support rapid prototyping (like with ib) without producing spaghetti-code as soon as you want to do real work. maybe stepstone with some windows version of a kit of ui objects? interviews (what it is exactly, i don't know. i kind of lost touch with that world when i started with nextstep.) gerben wierda [nerd:7539] tel. (+31) 35 833539 "if you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there." from the talmud(?), rephrased in lewis carroll, "alice in wonderland". 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67457">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67457" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 at the moment, i am using a sun 3/80 (cgfour/bwtwo) with sunos 4.0.3 and openwindows 2.0. this configuration is slow and i can't run all the programs on ow2. for example, when i start a mailtool from ow3 and display it on my ow2 display, i can't open the compose window. i want to install an x11r5 or x11r4 server on my sun and use xdm (yes, we have xdm already running for other x-terminals) to log in and start the x programs. is there a "ready to go" binairy of the x11 server for my configuration (i have read something about xsun), or must i compile the x11 stuff by any help is welcome v. smeets -- vincent smeets competence center informatik gmbh -- smeets@cci.de software engineering / ada -- whois vs36 4470 meppen, germany 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67461">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67461" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 has anyone used dce threads with an x client? is it possible to have one thread listening for incoming rpcs while another processes x events? how do you set something like this up? _ atul (apara@ctp.com) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67462">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67462" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 [[ i posted this a few weeks back, but all i got back was an error message "pnews: /dev/null: permission denied". yep, /dev/null had a mode of 600. (arrghhh!!) ]] with renewed interest in "setting the display variable", etc.. i thought i would post my contribution. this perl script is my solution. it trys to be intelligent about what it's doing so that you should be able to type "rx host.domain.etc", and get a xterm running on "host.domain.etc", with all the difficult stuff taken care of. in theory, this program can do *everything* you ever wanted to do when you wanted to run a remote command in the background - it doesn't even need to be an x program. try a "rx big-machine make" for instance, for a backgrounded make on the remote "big-machine". for more details and a full list of features read the readme file, about 20 lines below... all comments welcome. #! /bin/sh # this is a shell archive. remove anything before this line, then unpack # it by saving it into a file and typing "sh file". to overwrite existing # files, type "sh file -c". you can also feed this as standard input via # unshar, or by typing "sh <file", e.g.. if this archive is complete, you # will see the following message at the end: # "end of archive 1 (of 1)." # contents: readme imakefile manifest makefile rx.man rx.pl # wrapped by sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk on thu apr 8 18:47:48 1993 path=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb ; export path if test -f 'readme' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'readme'\" echo shar: extracting \"'readme'\" \(1442 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'readme' <<'end_of_file' x glasgow rx - remote execution of x programs. version 3.1.7 xcopyright 1992 duncan sinclair <sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk> xtrivial to install, but there's an imakefile to make it even more trivial. xthe perl script needs some customisation before it is installed, just xedit the "rx.pl" file, and read the comments. once you've done xthis you can "xmkmf", then "make install install.man". xfeatures: x*) does the right thing for off-site remote execution. including x setting up $display to include domain names, and passing x magic cookies, or doing the "xhost" stuff. x*) allow different remote user name. (rx -l user host ...) x*) smart quoting of arguments - makes passing wild-cards easy. x*) custom command execution - link it to "remacs" to get a remote x emacs command. x*) automatic xterm options - names the xterm according to hostname, x and turns on "login shell". x*) default command is xterm. x*) propagates x-ish env. variables to remote session - user may x extend the list of variables to pass. x*) special handling for bourne shell users. x*) tries to do remote execution from same directory as local. x that is, it propagates $pwd, in an intelligent manner. x*) logs errors in a file. x*) overall intelligence (tm) - makes reasoned decisions about what x you are trying to do, and tries to "do the right thing". x*) written in perl, for portability and hackability. xfor more info, read the man page or the source. if test 1442 -ne `wc -c <'readme'`; then echo shar: \"'readme'\" unpacked with wrong size! # end of 'readme' if test -f 'imakefile' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'imakefile'\" echo shar: extracting \"'imakefile'\" \(370 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'imakefile' <<'end_of_file' x# glasgow rx imakefile. x programs = rx xall:: $(programs) xinstall:: safe xinstallnamedprog(rx.pl,rx,$(bindir)) xinstallmanpage(rx,$(mandir)) xinstall:: x $(rm) $(bindir)/rxterm x $(ln) $(bindir)/rx $(bindir)/rxterm xsafe: x @grep -s 'debug = 0' rx.pl || false xshar: safe x makekit -m -p x @-perl -pi -e "s/sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk/sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk/;" part* if test 370 -ne `wc -c <'imakefile'`; then echo shar: \"'imakefile'\" unpacked with wrong size! # end of 'imakefile' if test -f 'manifest' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'manifest'\" echo shar: extracting \"'manifest'\" \(313 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'manifest' <<'end_of_file' x file name archive # description x----------------------------------------------------------- x readme 1 read me first x imakefile 1 x manifest 1 this shipping list x makefile 1 x rx.man 1 x rx.pl 1 if test 313 -ne `wc -c <'manifest'`; then echo shar: \"'manifest'\" unpacked with wrong size! # end of 'manifest' if test -f 'makefile' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'makefile'\" echo shar: extracting \"'makefile'\" \(10172 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'makefile' <<'end_of_file' x# makefile generated by imake - do not edit! x# $xconsortium: imake.c,v 1.65 91/07/25 17:50:17 rws exp $ x# x# the cpp used on this machine replaces all newlines and multiple tabs and x# spaces in a macro expansion with a single space. imake tries to compensate x# for this, but is not always successful. x# x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# makefile generated from "imake.tmpl" and </tmp/iif.a04196> x# $xconsortium: imake.tmpl,v 1.139 91/09/16 08:52:48 rws exp $ x# x# platform-specific parameters may be set in the appropriate <vendor>.cf x# configuration files. site-specific parameters should be set in the file x# site.def. full rebuilds are recommended if any parameters are changed. x# x# if your c preprocessor does not define any unique symbols, you will need x# to set bootstrapcflags when rebuilding imake (usually when doing x# "make world" the first time). x# x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# site-specific configuration parameters that need to come before x# the platform-specific parameters - edit site.def to change x# site: $xconsortium: site.def,v 1.2 91/07/30 20:26:44 rws exp $ x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# platform-specific configuration parameters - edit sun.cf to change x# platform: $xconsortium: sun.cf,v 1.72.1.1 92/03/18 13:13:37 rws exp $ x# operating system: sunos 4.1.3 x# $xconsortium: sunlib.rules,v 1.7 91/12/20 11:19:47 rws exp $ x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# site-specific configuration parameters that go after x# the platform-specific parameters - edit site.def to change x# site: $xconsortium: site.def,v 1.2 91/07/30 20:26:44 rws exp $ x shell = /bin/sh x top = . x current_dir = . x ar = ar cq x bootstrapcflags = x cc = gcc -fpcc-struct-return x as = as x compress = compress x cpp = /lib/cpp $(std_cpp_defines) x preprocesscmd = gcc -fpcc-struct-return -e $(std_cpp_defines) x install = install x ld = ld x lint = lint x lintlibflag = -c x lintopts = -axz x ln = ln -s x make = make x mv = mv x cp = cp x ranlib = ranlib x ranlibinstflags = x rm = rm -f x troff = psroff x msmacros = -ms x tbl = tbl x eqn = eqn x std_includes = x std_cpp_defines = x std_defines = x extra_load_flags = x extra_libraries = x tags = ctags x sharedcodedef = -dsharedcode x shlibdef = -dsunshlib x proto_defines = x instpgmflags = x instbinflags = -m 0755 x instuidflags = -m 4755 x instlibflags = -m 0644 x instincflags = -m 0444 x instmanflags = -m 0444 x instdatflags = -m 0444 x instkmemflags = -g kmem -m 2755 x projectroot = /usr/x11 x top_includes = -i$(incroot) x cdebugflags = -o2 x ccoptions = x allincludes = $(includes) $(extra_includes) $(top_includes) $(std_includes) x alldefines = $(allincludes) $(std_defines) $(extra_defines) $(proto_defines) $(defines) x cflags = $(cdebugflags) $(ccoptions) $(alldefines) x lintflags = $(lintopts) -dlint $(alldefines) x ldlibs = $(sys_libraries) $(extra_libraries) x ldoptions = $(cdebugflags) $(ccoptions) $(local_ldflags) -l$(usrlibdir) x ldcombineflags = -x -r x dependflags = x macrofile = sun.cf x rm_cmd = $(rm) *.ckp *.ln *.bak *.bak *.o core errs ,* *~ *.a .emacs_* tags tags make.log makeout x imake_defines = x irulesrc = $(configdir) x imake_cmd = $(imake) -duseinstalled -i$(irulesrc) $(imake_defines) x iconfigfiles = $(irulesrc)/imake.tmpl $(irulesrc)/imake.rules \ x $(irulesrc)/project.tmpl $(irulesrc)/site.def \ x $(irulesrc)/$(macrofile) $(extra_iconfigfiles) x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# x window system build parameters x# $xconsortium: project.tmpl,v 1.138.1.1 92/11/11 09:49:19 rws exp $ x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# x window system make variables; this need to be coordinated with rules x pathsep = / x usrlibdir = /usr/x11/lib x bindir = /usr/x11/local/bin x incroot = /usr/x11/include x buildincroot = $(top) x buildincdir = $(buildincroot)/x11 x buildinctop = .. x incdir = $(incroot)/x11 x admdir = /usr/adm x libdir = $(usrlibdir)/x11 x configdir = $(libdir)/config x lintlibdir = $(usrlibdir)/lint x fontdir = $(libdir)/fonts x xinitdir = $(libdir)/xinit x xdmdir = $(libdir)/xdm x twmdir = $(libdir)/twm x manpath = /usr/x11/man x mansourcepath = $(manpath)/man x mansuffix = n x libmansuffix = 3 x mandir = $(mansourcepath)$(mansuffix) x libmandir = $(mansourcepath)$(libmansuffix) x nlsdir = $(libdir)/nls x pexapidir = $(libdir)/pex x xapploaddir = $(libdir)/app-defaults x fontcflags = -t x instappflags = $(instdatflags) x imake = imake x depend = makedepend x rgb = rgb x fontc = bdftopcf x mkfontdir = mkfontdir x mkdirhier = /bin/sh $(bindir)/mkdirhier x configsrc = $(top)/config x docutilsrc = $(top)/doc/util x clientsrc = $(top)/clients x demosrc = $(top)/demos x libsrc = $(top)/lib x fontsrc = $(top)/fonts x includesrc = $(top)/x11 x serversrc = $(top)/server x utilsrc = $(top)/util x scriptsrc = $(utilsrc)/scripts x examplesrc = $(top)/examples x contribsrc = $(top)/../contrib x docsrc = $(top)/doc x rgbsrc = $(top)/rgb x dependsrc = $(utilsrc)/makedepend x imakesrc = $(configsrc) x xauthsrc = $(libsrc)/xau x xlibsrc = $(libsrc)/x x xmusrc = $(libsrc)/xmu x toolkitsrc = $(libsrc)/xt x awidgetsrc = $(libsrc)/xaw x oldxlibsrc = $(libsrc)/oldx x xdmcplibsrc = $(libsrc)/xdmcp x bdftosnfsrc = $(fontsrc)/bdftosnf x bdftosnfsrc = $(fontsrc)/clients/bdftosnf x bdftopcfsrc = $(fontsrc)/clients/bdftopcf x mkfontdirsrc = $(fontsrc)/clients/mkfontdir x fslibsrc = $(fontsrc)/lib/fs x fontserversrc = $(fontsrc)/server x extensionsrc = $(top)/extensions x xilibsrc = $(extensionsrc)/lib/xinput x pexlibsrc = $(extensionsrc)/lib/pexlib x phigslibsrc = $(extensionsrc)/lib/pex x# $xconsortium: sunlib.tmpl,v 1.14.1.2 92/11/11 09:55:02 rws exp $ xshlibldflags = -assert pure-text xpicflags = -fpic x depextensionlib = x extensionlib = -lxext x depxlib = $(depextensionlib) x xlib = $(extensionlib) -lx11 x depxmulib = $(usrlibdir)/libxmu.sa.$(soxmurev) x xmulibonly = -lxmu x xmulib = -lxmu x depoldxlib = x oldxlib = -loldx x depxtoollib = $(usrlibdir)/libxt.sa.$(soxtrev) x xtoollib = -lxt x depxawlib = $(usrlibdir)/libxaw.sa.$(soxawrev) x xawlib = -lxaw x depxilib = x xilib = -lxi x deppexlib = x pexlib = -lpex5 x soxlibrev = 4.10 x soxtrev = 4.10 x soxawrev = 5.0 x sooldxrev = 4.10 x soxmurev = 4.10 x soxextrev = 4.10 x soxinputrev = 4.10 x sopexrev = 1.0 x depxauthlib = $(usrlibdir)/libxau.a x xauthlib = -lxau x depxdmcplib = $(usrlibdir)/libxdmcp.a x xdmcplib = -lxdmcp x depphigslib = $(usrlibdir)/libphigs.a x phigslib = -lphigs x depxbsdlib = $(usrlibdir)/libxbsd.a x xbsdlib = -lxbsd x lintextensionlib = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lxext.ln x lintxlib = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lx11.ln x lintxmu = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lxmu.ln x lintxtool = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lxt.ln x lintxaw = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lxaw.ln x lintxi = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lxi.ln x lintpex = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lpex5.ln x lintphigs = $(lintlibdir)/llib-lphigs.ln x deplibs = $(depxawlib) $(depxmulib) $(depxtoollib) $(depxlib) x deplibs1 = $(deplibs) x deplibs2 = $(deplibs) x deplibs3 = $(deplibs) x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# imake rules for building libraries, programs, scripts, and data files x# rules: $xconsortium: imake.rules,v 1.123 91/09/16 20:12:16 rws exp $ x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# start of imakefile x# glasgow rx imakefile. x programs = rx xall:: $(programs) xinstall:: safe xinstall:: rx.pl x @if [ -d $(destdir)$(bindir) ]; then set +x; \ x else (set -x; $(mkdirhier) $(destdir)$(bindir)); fi x $(install) -c $(instbinflags) rx.pl $(destdir)$(bindir)/rx xinstall.man:: rx.man x @if [ -d $(destdir)$(mandir) ]; then set +x; \ x else (set -x; $(mkdirhier) $(destdir)$(mandir)); fi x $(install) -c $(instmanflags) rx.man $(destdir)$(mandir)/rx.$(mansuffix) xinstall:: x $(rm) $(bindir)/rxterm x $(ln) $(bindir)/rx $(bindir)/rxterm xsafe: x @grep -s 'debug = 0' rx.pl || false xshar: safe x makekit -m -p x @-perl -pi -e "s/sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk/sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk/;" part* x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# common rules for all makefiles - do not edit xemptyrule:: xclean:: x $(rm_cmd) "#"* xmakefile:: x -@if [ -f makefile ]; then set -x; \ x $(rm) makefile.bak; $(mv) makefile makefile.bak; \ x else exit 0; fi x $(imake_cmd) -dtopdir=$(top) -dcurdir=$(current_dir) xtags:: x $(tags) -w *.[ch] x $(tags) -xw *.[ch] > tags xsaber: x # load $(alldefines) $(srcs) xosaber: x # load $(alldefines) $(objs) x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# empty rules for directories that do not have subdirs - do not edit xinstall:: x @echo "install in $(current_dir) done" xinstall.man:: x @echo "install.man in $(current_dir) done" xmakefiles:: xincludes:: x# ------------------------------------------------------------------------- x# dependencies generated by makedepend if test 10172 -ne `wc -c <'makefile'`; then echo shar: \"'makefile'\" unpacked with wrong size! # end of 'makefile' if test -f 'rx.man' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'rx.man'\" echo shar: extracting \"'rx.man'\" \(3551 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'rx.man' <<'end_of_file' x.th rx 1 "4 march 1993" "x version 11" x.sh name xrx,rxterm,r* - remote command, xterm, anything execution x.sh synopsis x.b rx x[ x.b \-l x.i username x] x.i host x[ x.i command x] x.br x.b rxterm x[ x.b \-l x.i username x] x.i host x[ x.ir args .\|.\|. x] x.sh description x.b rx xprogram connect to the specified x.i host xand executes the specified x.i command xin the background, returning immediately. to allow the execution xof x programs, it copies a number of environmental variables to xthe remote session. if you omit x.ir command , xthen rx will start an xterm on the remote host. the x.b rxterm xvarient starts a remote xterm on a host, and also passes x.i args xto the remote xterm as arguments. x.pp xshell metacharacters which are not quoted are interpreted on the local xmachine, while quoted metacharacters are interpreted on the remote x.pp xif the name of the file from which x.b rx xis executed is anything other than ``rx,'' x.b rx xtakes this name, stripped on a leading ``r'' as the command xto run on the remote host, using any x.i command xparameters as arguments for the remote command. x.pp x.b rx xthinks you are using x.b xauth xbased x authorisation, and you are calling to a off-site host, or xto a different username, it will attempt to copy an authorization xkey to the remote account. otherwise it will try to use x.b xhost(1) xto grant access to the remote host. x.sh options x.tp x.bi \-l " username" x.i username xas the remote username instead of your local username. in the absence xof this option, the remote username is the same as your local username. x.sh environment xif set, the values of path, display, xenvironment, xapplresdir, xxfilesearchpath, xuserfilesearchpath, openwinhome, ld_library_path, xand xauthority are exported to the remote program, unless the xremote username is different, or the remote host is off-site, in which xcase only display is exported, with in all cases any variables named in the xvariable rxenv. x.pp xthe display variable is tweaked as appropriate, to contain as qualified xa hostname as is needed. x.sh diagnostics x.tp x.ib command ": don't recognise my name." x.b rx xcannot decode the name it has been called under. in this case xit prints a warning message, and continues, as normal. x.tp x.b "rx: usage: rx [-l username] hostname [args...]" xthis means it could not decode the arguments given to it. x.sh author xduncan sinclair <sinclair@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, july 1992 x.br xoriginally based on a program with the same name from the x.b gwm xdistribution. to distinguish this "rx" from other programs xwith similar names, you should refer to this program as the x.b glasgow x.br rx . x.sh "see also" xx(1), rsh(1), xterm(1), xauth(1), xhost(1), gwm(1) x.sh bugs x.b rx xmakes a number of assumptions about the relationship between the xlocal user, and the remote one, depending on whether the remote xhost is onsite or not, and whether an alternative username was used xor not. x.pp xin particular, if either the locally used shell, or the remotely xused shell is the standard bourne shell, x.b sh(1) xthen strange things are more likely to happen. especially when xit's only one of them. x.pp xsometimes quoting can get messed up. x.pp xit's too easy to fool the smarts in x.b rx xto make it believe something that is not true, and fail because of it. x.pp x.b rx x.b xhost xto grant access, the x.b xhost xcommand may fail silently. x.pp x.b rx xtries to send to large a command to the remote machine, it will xlikely fail with a parse error from csh. if this happens, you xwill probably have to reduce the size of the exported environment. if test 3551 -ne `wc -c <'rx.man'`; then echo shar: \"'rx.man'\" unpacked with wrong size! # end of 'rx.man' if test -f 'rx.pl' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: will not clobber existing file \"'rx.pl'\" echo shar: extracting \"'rx.pl'\" \(9028 characters\) sed "s/^x//" >'rx.pl' <<'end_of_file' x#! /usr/local/bin/perl x# config: change the line above to point to your copy of perl. x############################################################################## x# glasgow rx version 3.1.7 x# x# copyright 1992 duncan sinclair <sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk> x# x# last modified: early april 1993. x# x# distribution limited, as per the usual mit copyright. x############################################################################## x# remote execution of x programs. based on a script in an old version of gwm. x# x# to install, put rx in your bin and make rxterm a link to it. x# some configuration will be necessary, see "config" comments... x# x# more and more this is less and less like the original.... x# x# major hacked to work for our(my) set up, and also partly x# re-written to work with sh, rather than ksh. x# x# maybe i'll turn this into our first zsh script! x# x# looks like it turned into a perl script at some point - big improvement. x############################################################################## x# this code tries to be intelligent in the way it works. this means there x# are tons of implicit assumptions about the environment it is run in. x# these assumptions are all valid on the machines i use, and in my x# environment. at the same time, i try to make as few assumptions as possible x# about the remote machine. here's a list of all the more tricky ones... x# *) that the remote machine has csh. (linux?) x# *) that $rshell = /bin/(k)?sh ==> remote shell = /bin/(k)?sh. (make same.) x# *) if remote shell = sh, that $path is compatible. (use csh, etc..) x# *) i pass a cookie to the remote machine if need be, but does it x# know what to do with a cookie. (eat it?) x# *) there must be others... x############################################################################## x# why am i using csh to run the remote commands? simply because it doesn't x# interact badly with rsh, and hang waiting for a file descriptor to x# be closed. i'd rather use zsh, or bash, or even perl, but they are not x# as universal as csh. x############################################################################## x# xrequire "stat.pl"; x# x# what we called? x# x$argv0 = $0 ; x$argv0 =~ s:.*/:: ; x# x# config: x# change these variables to be your domain name, and a pattern that x# will match all variations on your domain name. you must include x# those leading dots!!! if your hostname includes your domain, see x# the code further down, marked "xxx" x# x$dom = ".dcs.gla.ac.uk" ; x$dompat = "\.dcs(\.gla(sgow)?(\.ac\.uk)?)?" ; x# x# config: x# change this to your value of bindir, or set the variable to "" if x# you think your users are smarter than that. x# x$xpaths = "/usr/x11/bin" ; x# x# config: x# make this the name of your "remote shell" command. x# x$rsh = "rsh" ; x# x# end of config x# x# some variables we'll no doubt use sometime... x# x$usage = "$argv0: usage: $argv0 [-l username] hostname [args...]\n" ; x$rshell = (getpwuid($<))[8] || "/bin/sh" ; x$home = $env{"home"} || (getpwuid($<))[7] ; x$xauth = $env{"xauthority"} || $home . "/.xauthority" ; x$logf = "~/.rx.log" ; x@stuff = () ; x$debug = 0 ; x# x# before anything else, close stdin. this might stop rx hanging x# due to rsh weirdness. x# xclose(stdin); x# x# do a "-l" flag... x# xif ($argv[0] eq "-l") { x shift ; x $user = $argv[0] || die $usage ; x @luser = ("-l",$user) ; x shift ; x} x# x# pick a host, any host... x# x$mach = $argv[0] || die $usage ; xshift ; x# x# things to think about for the remote machine. x# x$mach =~ s/$dompat// ; x$offsite = $mach =~ /\./ ; x# x# where am i? seems we can't trust the dumb user to set hostname right! x# x#$hostname=$env{hostname} || `hostname` ; # current host x$hostname=`hostname` ; # current host x$hostname =~ s/\n// ; x# x# if all your hostnames include your domain, comment out the next line. x# xif ( $offsite ) { $hostname = $hostname . $dom ; } # xxx x# x# now we know where we are, and they are, are they different? x# x$diff = $hostname ne $mach ; x# x# what is the display going to be? x# !! danger !! heavy regular expressions follow... x# this needs to be re-written to be modular and can so be extended to x# support resetting host:* to unix:*, as required. x# x$display = $env{"display"} || ":0.0" ; x$display =~ s/$dompat// ; x$display =~ s/^(unix)?(:\d(\.\d)?)$/$hostname$2/ if ($diff) ; x$display =~ s/^([^.]*)(:\d(\.\d)?)$/$1$dom$2/ if ($offsite) ; x$env{"display"} = $display ; x# x# here comes the hard bit in sh. quote our args. x# also have to quote quotes. to cope with csh braindamage, x# quotes are quoted thus; ' -> '\'' x# so for an arg "foo'bar", we get "'foo'\''bar'". x# xforeach (@argv) { x s#\'#\'\\\'\'#g ; x s#(.*)#\'$1\'# ; x} x# x# so what we doing? x# xprog: { x if ($argv0 eq "rx") { last prog ; } x if ($argv0 eq "rxterm") { x #unshift(@argv,"-ls") if ($diff) ; x unshift(@argv,"xterm","-ls","-n",$mach) ; x last prog ; x } x if ($argv0 =~ /r(.*)/) { unshift(@argv,$1) ; last prog ; } x warn "$argv0: don't recognise my name." ; x} x# x# if nothing else, become an rxterm. x# xif (@argv == 0) { x #unshift(@argv,"-ls") if ($diff) ; x unshift(@argv,"xterm","-ls","-n",$mach) ; x} x# x# some special considerations if we are not ourselves on the other side. x# xif ($offsite || $user) { x # x # we want to pass a cookie here. x # x if (-e $xauth) { x # x # this is going to be unsecure, as the cookie will appear in a number x # of command line args. but at least it'll work. x # this will need enhanced if we ever fix the code above to x # set display to ":0.0", when we return to the server. x # x $cookie = `path=\$path:$xpaths xauth list $display` ; x chop($cookie) ; x @cooks = split(' ',$cookie) ; x shift(@cooks) ; x unshift(@stuff,"xauth","add",$display,@cooks,";") if (@cooks == 2) ; x } else { x # x # yuk. what a crock. i hate doing this. x # x system("xhost +$mach >/dev/null 2>/dev/null") if ($diff) ; x } x # x # we really only want to pass a value for $display. x # x @vars=("display", split(' ',$env{"rxenv"})) ; x} else { x # x # some variables we wish to export x # x @vars=( x "display", x "xenvironment", x "xfilesearchpath", x "xuserfilesearchpath", x "xapplresdir", x "openwinhome", x "ld_library_path", x # "manpath", # for "rxman", and bourne shell users. x "xauthority", x split(' ',$env{"rxenv"}), x ) ; x # x # braindead bourne shell, needs to be given a $path... x # we would rather not pass the current $path, because it might not work x # on the destination machine. i'd rather it was set by the user's x # remote shell during the rsh. x # fortunately, all *my* x programs are in an arch independant place, and x # so it shouldn't cos a problem, locally. x # we check against $rshell, because they might be running another shell, x # differant from their login shell. i know, sounds weird, but it's too x # common round here. x # i've also included ksh in the brain-damage, cos i can't see an easy way x # to pass throught $env{"env"} without it being too late. (we only have x # one person who has ksh as a login shell anyway...) x # oh, yeah.. we are assuming that if it's bourne shell here, then it's x # bourne shell there. much more important than this is that it it isnt x # bourne shell here, it better not be bourne shell there. x # x if ($rshell =~ m#/(k)?sh#) { push(@vars,"path"); } x} x# x# validate $pwd routine... x# xsub validate_pwd { x local(@pwdstats, @dotstats); x local($pwd) = $_[0]; x unless (defined($pwd)) { return undef; } ; x unless (@dotstats = stat(".")) { return undef; } ; x unless (@pwdstats = stat($pwd)) { return undef; } ; x if (($pwdstats[$st_dev] != $dotstats[$st_dev]) || x ($pwdstats[$st_ino] != $dotstats[$st_ino])) { return undef; } ; x $pwd; x} x# x# try and find a nice, valid, pwd. x# xpresent: { x if ($pwd = $env{"pwd"}) { x $foopwd = $pwd ; x $foopwd =~ s#(/tmp_mnt|/export)?/(.*)#/$2# ; x $pwd = &validate_pwd($foopwd) || &validate_pwd($pwd) ; x }; x unless ($pwd) { x chop($pwd = `pwd`) ; x $foopwd = $pwd ; x $foopwd =~ s#(/tmp_mnt|/export)?/(.*)#/$2# ; x $pwd = &validate_pwd($foopwd) || &validate_pwd($pwd) || $home; x } x} x$pwd =~ s#(.*)#\'$1\'# ; x# x# try to find somewhere nice to live on the other side. x# xunless ($offsite) { x unshift(@stuff,"test","-d",$pwd,"&&","cd",$pwd,";"); x} x# x# start building the full command. x# xforeach $var (@vars) { x ($val = $env{$var}) && x unshift(@stuff,"setenv","$var","\'"."$val"."\'",";") ; x} x# x# some commands to do on the other side... x# xunshift(@stuff,"set","nonomatch",";"); # only if we are using csh. x# x# build the remote command. x# x$remote=("(umask 077 ; ((".join(" ",@stuff,@argv).")</dev/null >&$logf &))") ; x$remote =~ s#\"#\\\"#g ; x$remote = "\"" . $remote . "\"" ; x# x# build the arg list for the exec. x# x@comm=($rsh,@luser,"$mach","csh","-fc",$remote) ; x# x# do it! x# xif ($debug) { x print "@comm\n" ; x} else { x exec @comm ; x} x# x# rsh doesn't return any indication of how it went over x# on the other side, but that's ok, cos we aint going to x# wait around to see what happened. x# xexit 0 ; x# x# the end if test 9028 -ne `wc -c <'rx.pl'`; then echo shar: \"'rx.pl'\" unpacked with wrong size! chmod +x 'rx.pl' # end of 'rx.pl' echo shar: end of archive 1 \(of 1\). cp /dev/null ark1isdone missing="" for i in 1 ; do if test ! -f ark${i}isdone ; then missing="${missing} ${i}" if test "${missing}" = "" ; then echo you have the archive. rm -f ark[1-9]isdone echo you still need to unpack the following archives: echo " " ${missing} ## end of shell archive. exit 0 duncan sinclair | sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk | sinclair@uk.ac.gla.dcs --- would the *real* unix operating system please stand up. --- 
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 please subscribe me. e-mail: rpicas@porto.inescn.pt 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67466">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67466" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 we have a requirement for dynamically closing and opening different display servers within an x application in a manner such that at any time there is only one display associated with the client. assumming a proper cleanup is done during the transition should we anticipate any problems. kartik@hls.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67469">
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 posted for a friend without posting access (but with e-mail access...) help, anyone! i have a x client that is abnormally terminated with the following message: xio: fatal io error 22 (invalid argument) on x server "xxxxx:0.0" after 10058 requests (10057 known processed) with 78 events remaining. it has been known to occur when displaying on the xsun (x11r4) server. it occurs with a higher frequency when the client displays on the xdomain (x11r4) server running on domainos 10.3.5 on an apollo. anybody know why this may be happening? any suggestions would be greatly reply-to: has been set to me. i'll summarize to the net. doug leary redars software development boeing computer services dcl@luey.ca.boeing.com tim gentry boeing computer services gentry@bcstec.ca.boeing.com this posting in no way officially represents the opinions of boeing, boeing computer services -- or possibly even the poster, for that matter. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67470">
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 my question is this: is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and/or numlock is? i don't know any way except to see what modifiers are on in th keypress event. of course if there is some reason why you need to always know the state of modifiers even if your windows don't have the keyborads focus you can always ask for keypress events from the root window. then you get all the keypresses and you always know what have been pressed. an even more pointed question: is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard? ie, capslock is active, and the user presses shift-a, i'd like to get a lowercase 'a' instead of 'a'. i think this is just a question of how to implement xlookupstring. you can always write another function that interprets the keypresses as you like. you can look at the implementation of xlookupstring from the xlib sources and then modify it a little bit. sami.tikka@hut.fi | /g=sami/s=tikka/o=hut/admd=fumail/c=fi/ "live long and prosper!" 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67474">
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 we are making a transition from nextstep to x-windows. i am trying to find the best gui tool for our needs. i have looked at several tools but they all seem basically the same (each salesman will beg to differ). i realize that there are differences but i don't have an infinate amount of time to discover what they are. the tools i have looked at so far are uim/x, x-designer, tele-use, tcl/tk,interviews, and suit. so far i've drawn the following conclusions: 1) the builder for interviews is not very mature, bad docs 2) tele-use is very expensive and uses a proprietary toolkit 3) uim/x & x-designer seem about the same, even though x-designer does not have a interpreter (i'll by centerline if i need one) 4) tcl/tk is a little buggy 5) i know very little about the ics builder (just have the sales info) 6) due to a corporate agreement x-designer is much cheeper than any other comercial product. 7) for the time i'm spending i could have bought all of them (well different money) 8) we will have to live with any shortcomings and make it work 9) this type of tool seems great, but noone seems to talk about them on the net. is there another news group for this ? 10) suit cost too much for comercial development. i'm hoping someone out there has a strong opinion on at least one of these products. * bruce trvalik aoa-----------------* * (617)864-0201 check your mind at the door - the band that time forgot * moose@aoa.utc.com * aoa!moose@bbn.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67477">
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 just create the window in the place you want it and set the program position field in the wm_normal_hints property, then map it. then, assuming they have a non brain dead window manager, the user can say whether they want to us program specified positions or not. for tvtwm the usepposition command in the .tvtwmrc will do this. now, i'm sure that by the time this message gets out of our local news timewarp someone will have advised you to set the user position bit in the wm_normal_hints. _do_not_ do this. it's evil. it's a disservice to your users. offler the tusked crocodile god will come in the night and remove your vital organs with a blunt spoon if you even contemplate rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _o_ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67479">
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 our application requires us to capture keypad presses for all windows in a number of applications. we are trying to use action translation tables to implement this. we have only succeeded by assigning the translation table to every individual widget in all windows in a single application. the xt calls we make are included below. it would be much more convenient if we could assign the translation table to a class of widgets rather than individual widget instantiations, and also accomplish it for multiple applications. if someone could describe how do this it would be greatly appreciated. platform: sun sparc w/ x11r4 & motif 1.1.4 static xtactionsrec actionstable[] = { {"up", do_up}, {"right", do_right}, {"middle", do_middle}, {"left", do_left}, {"down", do_down}, {"bye", quit}, static char defaulttranslations[] = "<key>kp_8: up() \n\ <key>kp_6: right() \n\ <key>kp_5: middle() \n\ <key>kp_4: left() \n\ <key>kp_2: down() \n\ <key>kp_1: bye()"; xttranslations trans_table, trans_table2; xtaddactions(actionstable, xtnumber(actionstable)); trans_table = xtparsetranslationtable(defaulttranslations); widget = xtcreatemanagedwidget("msg", xmpushbuttonwidgetclass, form, wargs, n); xtoverridetranslations(widget, trans_table); 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67480">
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 what sort of traffic is generated with the x-calls? i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv/x is supporting multiple users (clients) and we require adequate response time. anyone have any ideas ?? i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine, not the network itself. to give you a real-world example, here at quarterdeck we have roughly 100 people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes, novell file servers, and each other. it's not _too_ much of a load on our ethernet (with maybe 4 concentrators, so you have 20-30 people on each segment). if you had a badly loaded net, or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive, you could run into some slowdowns. but the biggest problem would be the machine itself. say you have a 486 33 with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card. if you have 10 people running programs off it, you're going to see some slowdowns because you're now on (effectively) a 3.3 mhz 486. of course, dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice, but if you have 10 working programs running, you'll know it. well i can buy a bigger and more powerful server machine because of the significant drop in price year after year. the link i want to use though (isdn 64k) is costly and the bandwidth limited. that's why my interest lies in seeing if such a link can be used and see what traffic goes through it. since i don't think tom always gets time to read this group, i'll take the liberty of responding to some of this. if you really want tom to reply you should send mail to support@qdeck.com. a 64k line is certainly going to restrict you far more than the 10mbps ethernet that we typically run. how restrictive it will be depends on what you run and how you run it. i would think that a couple of instances of some really nasty program like "smoking clover" would make the link useless for anyone else. on the other hand, probably 50 xclocks quietly updating every 10 seconds or so wouldn't impact it too much. in the real world, you will be somewhere in between these two extremes. going by the way i personally use x on a daily basis, i wouldn't want to have to share that 64k link with more than 3-4 other people. having said that, if you can tweak the programs being run (by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing), you could probably run 15-20 people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again (this time from network bandwidth). hmmm. has anyone at your centre monitored the traffic at all? are you running any standard ms-windows programs like word ? what sort of packets go blazing through? what size link do you have (2mb or 10mb ?). what is the average traffic flow going through your network or do you have few high peaks and then many low points? our corporate wan is as unique as any other. the usage patterns are not very good predictors of how yours will behave. the only one of our low bandwidth links that normally get used in this way is a 56k link to ireland that they often use to run a dos text based client end of a client-server database remotely from the dvx machine behind me. since the server end is (or was) always at this end (california) it is faster to remotely run the client via desqview x and have a short hop to the server than running the client locally and having a long hop to the server. as i warned you, this tells us very little about how you usage pattern will fill a 64k isdn link. running word for windows remotely is going to itself be very usage dependent. let's break it into pieces and look at it. tracking the mouse pointer is easy and efficient to translate from windows calls into x. popping up a menu is a little more involved and will generate some traffic. restoring the screen that was covered by that menu may be easy and may not be. does the server that it's displaying on have backing store? if so and the server had enough memory the display can be updated locally and will generate little network traffic. if no backing store, then what was being covered up? if it was a solid colored rectangle of space we can tell your xserver to draw that quite easily. if it was a full color backdrop of ren & stimpy we may have to send it back to the x server bit by bit. dvx will do its level best to only redraw that small area, but in some unusual cases the entire screen may need to be repainted. assuning a 1024x768 screen with 4 bits per pixel that's 3145728 bits that has to be sent. worst possible case you're looking at about 50 seconds. in reality it would never be this bad since the screen will always have parts that will be tranlatable into higher level x calls. it all really depends on what the programs are doing (ie. you're going to see a slowdown from x-bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also...) what do you mean by network things? i vision using ms windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running on the server and all i am getting are the displays. i am wondering how good is the x and subsequently dv/x protocol in transferring these images with x-calls and displaying them on a client's machine. x was designed from the ground up to be efficient across a network. it's pretty good for this. x programs are best, dos text programs are almost as good (since we conert them to x easily). something like winx is a hybrid. we intercept the calls windows makes to it's graphics driver/ mouse driver keyboard driver and convert them to x. the calls windows is making are in no way designed to be efficient on a packet switched network. we go to a lot of trouble to convert them to the highes level xlib calls we can, but we are somewhat limited because we only know what windows and its applications tell us. | quarterdeck office systems ____________________/_ | | gary rich - problem resolution dept. _________________///__\ | | _____________________________________________ ______________/////___\ | | anonymous ftp site = qdeck.com ___________///////____\ | | ---for--- ---write to--- ________/////////_____\ | | pricing/ordering info : info@qdeck.com _____///////////______\ | | technical questions : support@qdeck.com __/////////////_______\ | | quarterdeck bbs - (310) 314-3227 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67481">
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 i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux - it must be free. - it must run on standard (monochrome) x with a small screen size (800x600) no motif/openlook etc. - it must compile under linux with gcc/g++. most generic unix software works ok. - it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips. or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps. - it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size (scrollable). i know of several such programs, idraw, xfig. tgif. i have no experience with any of them. features i would like in the programs are. - ability to draw circles, arcs, straight lines, boxes and arrows. - support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects. - support for texts in any size. - ability to move/copy/resize/rotate any part of the drawing. - ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component (e.g. a transistor symbol composed of three lines, an arrow and a circle) - any aid (numeric coordinates, screen grid) to align parts of the drawing. - less essential, but in fact very handy: preservation of connection. if i move one part of the drawing, the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing, stay connected. ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics, flow charts, logic diagrams, data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it. i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs? how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space, memory and cpu usage? are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x? in the list you mentioned, tgif handles everything except rotation and any size text. it only supports 90 degrees rotation. currently, it supports 11 (x11r4 standard) font sizes. however, it allows arbitrary scaling of the entire drawing. effectively, it allows any font sizes, but you can only have 11 different sizes per drawing. tgif takes up 850k (compiled with -o option) on a sparcstation. i was told that it compiles under linux, but i haven't tried it yet. it works with both color and monochrome x. bill cheng // ucla computer science department // (310) 645-8328 3564-c boelter hall // los angeles, california 90024 // usa william@cs.ucla.edu ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!william 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67482">
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 we have a network of ~20 sun workstations, running sunos 4.1.1 and openwindows 3. 7 of these are sun 3's that we have modified to run seth robertson's xkernel image, effectively turning them into xterminals. we use xdm (x11r4) to manage the displays. when we had 3 xkernel machines, things worked fine, but when we installed 4 more last weekend, we appear to have found a weakness. with 7 clients to 1 sparc 2, the sparc 2 window manager is eventually getting munged. let me try to be precise: the user sitting at the machine that does all the actual processing for these xterminals is having control of his keyboard and screen yanked away. (when this was the department chair, it was kind of cute). we poked at xdm for a few days and are satisfied that it is not at fault. our current theory is that olwm (the sun version) was not meant for running multiple copies on one machine (which is what happens -- the console user runs olwm, and every xterminal logged in has olwm running on the xterminal server). has anyone had any prior experience with this sort of behavior? can anyone shoot obvious holes in this theory? how about obvious gimmes? and, of course, any ideas on how to solve it? any ideas are greatly appreciated. greg owen { gowen@forte.cs.tufts.edu, gowen@jade.tufts.edu } systems programmer and ta, tufts university computer science dept. personal info: gcs/go d++ -p+ c+++ m*/m- s++/- g+ w+/w-- x+ email for explanation if interested... 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67483">
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 :i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine: :excerpts from mail: 29-apr-93 re: ol{v}wm 3 virtual keybo.. :ito2@aodc.gov.au (554) :> i have : :> > openwindows.keyboardcommands: full :> > openwindows.virtualgrabkeys : false :> which seems to work. where can i find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource - it doesn't show up in my openwindows 3.0 man pages... virtualgrabkeys is not an ow resource. it belongs to olvwm(1). mats larsson | email: mats.larsson@eua.ericsson.se ellemtel telecom systems labs | phone: +46 8 727 3658 s-125 25 alvsjo, sweden | fax: +46 8 727 4168 
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 how do you solve the problem when the message "cannot perform malloc" shows for xtcreatemanagedwidget call? i have the application written in x11r5 running on decstation using athena widgets. as soon as i added codes to do remote procedure call, the program refused to work. i also have my program working using just xlib calls with rpc. my executable code is about 1.4m and i don't have any idea how much memory is the decstation 3100/5100. any help will be appreciated. thanks. man l. li (manli@cs.uh.edu) dept. of computer science univ. of houston, houston,tx 77204-3475 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67485">
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 hello! we want to configure our x11r5 sytem (i486 33mhz running bsd-like unix) comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it (works) an then connect to them. but the only connection works is localhost! an 'x -indirect <machine>' works very well! the configuration: - starting the 'xdm' at boot time with no servers specified in xservers - starting the x-server at boot time with x -indirect localhost ---> the chooser menu appears with the machines named in xacces bye '* chooser <machine1> <machine2> ... broadcast - the number of users on this machines and the load is displayed correct - selecting an other machine than my own host the x-server starts and nothing happens, after a time out the chooser menu appears again. i know the xdm bug in x11r4, but all machines running x11r5 please help lars koeller e-mail: uphya001@odie.uni-bielefeld.de universitaet bielefeld (germany) uphya001@dave.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de fakultaet fuer physik / d0-231 phone: +49 521-106-5375 universitaetsstr. 25 fax: +49 521-106-5244 4800 bielefeld 1 telex: 932 362 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67487">
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 we're looking at various x11 clients for pc's and we're looking for some information about the relative efficiency of different products. are any notably efficient (fast)? are any notably inefficient? i assume that a graphics accelerator makes them significantly faster (right now i'm looking at ico running on xoftware/32 for windows sitting on the distinct tcp/ip platform, and it's (not surprisingly) much slower than ico running on the sparc10's console. what are the key ways of improving performance for pc (presumably windows) clients? also, what about async solutions? (yes, i appreciate that it will be *much* slower even with v.42bis.) i'm in the process of installing ppp (with header compression). how does that compare to cslip? i've seen a product called xremote by ncd that promises to be pretty efficient, but are there comparable products out there? if we're looking for efficiency for async, pc clients, what should we be looking at in addition to standard ppp w/ compression and xremote? any information would be greatly appreciated. i'm still taking in all the information in the faq, but any tips about the relative efficiency of various product offerings would be great. (i get the impression that discussions about speed are largely application specific, but that not withstanding, any comments would be appreciated.) thanks. -- rob rob ryan, system constructs inc. rryan@panix.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67489">
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 |> wasn't the shareware fee a "suggestion" by john? |> is so then it's up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to |> honour it and part with money. personally if i was in his position i would |> do exactly the same thing, john has obviously put in lot of time and effort |> into xv and why shouldn't he receive some money for it. |> just my pennies worth |> (keep up the good work john) the fee is a suggestion for an individual but licensing is mandatory for commercial, government, and institutional users. i wonder how many users of xv own the system that it runs on. michael salmon #include <standard.disclaimer> #include <witty.saying> #include <fancy.pseudo.graphics> ericsson telecom ab 
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 how do i view .eps files on x? i have an image in color encapsulated postscript, and need to view it on my screen. are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript? joseph sirosh 
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 |"> it is interesting to look at the change(s) of mind that john has had. |"very interested indeed! this is against this kind of "changes" that the gnu |"copyleft is protecting us. |"anyway, at simulog, we will abandon xv. we were using it mostly for slide- |"shows because of its "-loop" feature that display does not have (display |"from the *wonderful* imagemagick package! :-d), but i think i will implement |"it myself (even a shell-script should do the job) and forget xv. |"cheers, |"christophe. |"-- muller@simulog.fr |" = are you the police? -- no ma'am, we're musicians. = just use xloadimage instead (or xli). ronald van loon | in theory, there is no difference (rvloon@cv.ruu.nl) | between theory and practice. 3dcv group, utrecht | the netherlands | in practice however, there is. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67494">
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 i am developing an application that allows a *user* to interactively create/edit/view a visual "model" (i.e. topology) of their network, and i was wondering if anyone knew of any builder tools that exist to simplify this task. in the past i have used visual edge's uim/x product to develop other guis, so i am familiar with uimss in general. the topology will support objects and connecting links. once the topology is created, i want to provide the user with capabilities to support grouping, zooming, etc. i am looking for some form of a higher abstraction other than x drawing routines to accomplish this. specifically, the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult, and certainly time consuming, if i have to "roll my own". greg@software.mitel.com 
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 now available: xvertext 5.0 another day, another xvertext release... xvertext provides you with several functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window (previous versions were limited to vertical text). what's new since 4.0? o existing bitmap fonts can be magnified to give reasonable fonts at large o bounding boxes can be obtained. o the gc's stipple bitmap is honoured. o font ids can be cached when font names are unavailable. o an imakefile is present. o the demos are better (including a ransom note like the comp.sources.postscript one) where can i get it? comp.sources.x (soon...) export.lcs.mit.edu : contrib/xvertext.5.0.shar.z (now) alan richardson, * "you don't have to be * school of maths & physical sciences, * old to be wise" * univ. of sussex, brighton bn1 9qh, england * ******judas priest***** uk: mppa3@uk.ac.sussex.syma elsewhere: mppa3@syma.sussex.ac.uk 
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 i'm trying to make a 24 bit window using xcreatewindow on a 8 bit pseudocolor server. as far as i know this should be possible if you server supports a truecolor or directcolor visual. i'm using a sun ipc with a rasterflex card. running xdpyinfo gives: screen #0: dimensions: 1152x900 pixels (352x275 millimeters) resolution: 83x83 dots per inch depths (4): 1, 5, 8, 24 root window id: 0x80083 depth of root window: 8 planes number of colormaps: minimum 1, maximum 6 default colormap: 0x80080 number of visuals: 8 default visual id: 0x80079 visual: visual id: 0x80079 class: pseudocolor depth: 8 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x8007a class: truecolor depth: 24 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0xff, 0xff00, 0xff0000 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits visual: visual id: 0x8007b class: directcolor depth: 24 planes size of colormap: 256 entries red, green, blue masks: 0xff, 0xff00, 0xff0000 significant bits in color specification: 8 bits my code looks like this: if ((xio.dspptr = xopendisplay(null)) == null) logexit(1, "cannot connect to x server %s", xdisplayname(null)); xio.scr = defaultscreen(xio.dspptr); /* use this screen */ if (xmatchvisualinfo(xio.dspptr, xio.scr, 24, directcolor, &xtern.colorinfo)) memset(&setwinattrib, 0, sizeof(xsetwindowattributes)); xio.gswin = xcreatewindow(xio.dspptr, rootwindow(xio.dspptr, xio.scr), x, y, w, h, 0, 24, inputoutput, xtern.colorinfo, 0, &setwinattrib); this results in a badmatch error. can anyone please tell me why ? | henrik winther nielsen ccccccc ii | basic development cc cccc | cci europe mail: hwn@cci.dk cc cc ii | oester parkvej 9 phone: 86295588 (361) cc cccc ii | dk-8270 hoejbjerg ccccccc ii | denmark e u r o p e 
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 ...why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn, and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on? in x10, the drawing attributes were bundled into drawing requests; that is, the server's drawing model was stateless. this caused problems with performance and network traffic, so the x11 redesign included the graphic context to codify the drawing state. most application designers who want to draw things in several different colors create a gc for each color during initialization, then pass the gc id in each drawing request. for more information see scheifler and gettys's article in the 1986 acm transactions on graphics. 
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 is there any script/program/thelike already existing which could transform the output of x11perfcomp (a huge table) into a nice 3d'ish diagram or graph by producing postscript output from x11perfcomp input ? maybe someone has already written such beast ... +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x67500">
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 will there be no chance to get the author of this _really_ superb program to remove the 'institutional' point in his license statement ? or at least to say 'except educational ones' at this ? i understand that use of this software by either commercial or governmental users should be result in a donation to its creator, but the everytime rare on money universities, schools or whatever else institutions should not be restricted. if the situation stays as is and the author explicitely states that he treats universities and schools as institutions in this context, i'll have to fallback to xv 2.21 here. maybe our disk capacity will soon be dead, when every user has a copy of xv-3.00 in his home dir... +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 how do i view .eps files on x? i have an image in color encapsulated postscript, and need to view it on my screen. several ways are available -- pageview (which i think came with our system, so i can't point), ghostview (with ghostscript), and the new xv 3.00 package all do so. i recommend the latter two, especially xv if you want to do any conversion. are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript? i'm not sure offhand, but i will attempt to mail you the comp.lang.postscript faq, which has a list of utilities. greg owen { gowen@forte.cs.tufts.edu, gowen@jade.tufts.edu } systems programmer and ta, tufts university computer science dept. personal info: gcs/go d++ -p+ c+++ m*/m- s++/- g+ w+/w-- x+ email for explanation if interested... 
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 is there such a document either in the bookstores or possible on an ftp site somewhere? nothing really fancy, just something that gives a listing of the available widgets, and the resources that are pertinant to them, and what flavors of motif they occur in. andrew e. page (warrior poet) | decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant | the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology | and what we want to be. 
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 |> most graphics systems i have seen have drawing routines that also specify |> a color for drawing, like |> drawpoint(x,y,color) or drawline(x1,y1,x2,y2,color) or |> fillrectangle(x1,y1,x2,y2,color) |> with x, i have to do something like |> xsetforeground(current_color) |> xdrawpoint(d,w,x,y) |> why split this into two functions? why did x designers decide to not associate |> the color with the object being drawn, and instead associate it with the |> display it is being drawn on? for flexibility. anyway, what you say is not really true. the color information is associated with a graphicscontext, not with a display, and the gc _is_ a parameter to the drawing routines. so, if you need to fast switch between green dotted lines and blue ones of width 2, you can make 2 gcs for those cases and then simply do xdrawline(dpy,win,gc_red,x1,y1,x2,y2); xdrawline(dpy,win,gc_blue,x3,y3,x4,y4); for this effect. this is eventually more complicated to do for the programmer, but also much more efficient and flexible. you would not include all the other parameters like line pattern, with, cap and joinstyle, drawmode and so on in every drawing call, so why do it for color ? btw, stay away from xdrawpoint() if you don't really need it (to draw random points), for image transfers there are image routines. +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 the only directory i know of that lists commercial and non-commercial widgets is the ics widget data book. ics sells the widgets for various prices. there are also some public domain widgets in the delivery. the ics widget databook is a subscription kind of thing, where you pay some nominal fee, get a cd with the widgets and then you can use the public domain widgets freely, and selectively activate widgets which you want to purchase the right to use from them. the nice thing about this is that you can purchase whole sets of widgets such as those used in dataviews. i dont know there pricing schemes but it is often better to buy than to redevelop the more complex widgets, especially if you only one customer to distribute to. this is the extent that i know about them except that i got their databook catalog and it looked impressive (lots o' widgets there) i dont work for ics or have any widgets being sold by them. hope this helps you. brian dealy |301-572-8267| it not knowing where it's at dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov | | that's important,it's knowing !uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy | | where it's not at... b.dylan brian dealy |301-572-8267| it not knowing where it's at dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov | | that's important,it's knowing !uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy | | where it's not at... b.dylan 
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 i'm trying to get mh compiled (and then xmh) and i'm having some problems. i've got mh-6.8, using gcc on sco 3.2.4. my mh file is listed below. does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile?? bin /usr/local/bin debug off etc /usr/local/lib/mh mail /usr/mail mailgroup mail mandir /usr/man manuals gen chown /bin/chown editor prompter remove /bin/mv -f # if no tcp/ip sendmail is available: change mts entry to sendmail mts sendmail/smtp bboards off bbdelivery off bbhome /usr/spool/bboards mf off pop off # options see below cc gcc ccoptions -o -ansi -d__stdc__=0 -dsysv -dsysv386 -dsco -d_svid curses -lcurses ldoptions -s lex lex sprintf int sharedlib off slibdir /usr/local/lib oldload off ranlib off # define bind only of the bsd4.3 named (tcp/ip) is used # define sockets only if the system has bsd4.3 sockets (tcp/ip) options atz bind dumb mhe mhrc more='"/usr/bin/more"' options overhead shadow sockets sys5 sys5dir options tzname whatnow jesse w. asher (901)762-6000 varco-pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave., suite 400, memphis, tn 38119 internet: jessea@vpbuild.vp.com uucp: vpbuild!jessea 
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 i have a sparc-2 with 2 cgsix cards in it. i'd like to have the r5 server recognize the second card. i mknod created a /dev/cgsix1 device, but when i brought up the server, the second device was ignored. how do i setup the second card? note: if i borrow a cgthree card, and put a cgthree and a cgsix card in the same sparc-2 box, the r5 server finds the second card. i then set the display to the second card, and start a second window manager. worse case is i trade cards with someone, but maybe someone out there has seen this problem already... email is preferred... post if you must... thanks in advance.... jim brandt hughes lan systems/hughes network systems 550 south winchester blvd suite 406 san jose, ca 95128 /----------------------- _________________________________/ email: jbrandt@hns.com email: jbrandt@hls.com _________________________________ voice: (408) 246-5590 \ fax: (408) 246-2306 
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 |> hello! |> we want to configure our x11r5 sytem (i486 33mhz running bsd-like unix) |> comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it (works) an then |> connect to them. but the only connection works is localhost! |> an 'x -indirect <machine>' works very well! |> the configuration: |> - starting the 'xdm' at boot time with no servers specified |> in xservers |> - starting the x-server at boot time with x -indirect localhost ........... more deleted you need to start the x-server with -indirect its_name. if you start it with -indirect localhost, it use the loopback adress as it's adress. so when it try to contact another host, this one try to answer on its loopback adress. not good. remember that every machine has the adress 127.0.0.1 on the loopback network. pierre verpeaux dmt/semt/lams (1)69.08.65.42 
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 i forot to mention the free widget foundation which maintains a freely available set of widgets. info on this group can be gotten from free-widgets-request@kazoo.cs.uiuc.edu this list is maintained by volunteers and you may subscribe to a mailing list which discusses various aspects of using and abusing these widgets brian dealy |301-572-8267| it not knowing where it's at dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov | | that's important,it's knowing !uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy | | where it's not at... b.dylan 
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 i got several answers, the most complete was from errol crary (errolc@tv.tv.tek.com): i have just looked at the r4 server listings (.../mit/server/dix/window.c ) and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error, even though my o'reilly book only says "borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly". as of the third edition (june 92) the o'reilly book (vol 2) under xcreatewindow says: any invalid setting of a window attribute attribute besides win_gravity, event_mask, do_not_propogate+mask, override_redirect, or cursor specified for inputonly window depth non-zero for inputonly parent of inputoutput is inputonly border_width is non-zero for inputonly depth or visual invalid for screen width or height is 0 adrian nye o'reilly and associates 
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 will someone who can 'see' the x-face included in this header please reply and tell me if it turned out okay? i'm not all too sure about my viewing software. i *hand*-converted this thing in "vi" from a sun rasterfile... what a pain! for folks who haven't the slightest, it went like this: how to make your own x-face: in 0x000f easy steps! 1. scan my drivers' license into a *.pcx file. 2. use wingif to 'trim' my face out of the license, 'reduce' it by half, and convert it to *.bmp. 3. use paintbrush to touch up manually. 4. use wingif to 'reduce' it by half again. 5. use paintbrush to touch up again. 6. use wingif to 'reduce' it by half *again* and convert it to *.gif. [now over to the unix side...] 7. use snapshot to convert the *.gif to a sun rasterfile. 8. use iconedit to touch it up and convert it to an x bitmap. 9. use "vi" (yes, a *text* editor) to manually convert the rasterfile into the "uncompressed x-face" format. (lots of global "ed" commands, and by the time you're done you'll mirror hex bytewise in your sleep!!) [now over to the *linux* side...] a. use "compface" to convert it to what you see here: %:a<m@dob}bo"'e",eeqgbn7qy(en7as5u([k//"g{6^hiby9x8~+pd($}6szf"&vvxcxsn 8mw^0g#nvhe%w,`x"[j0s{r.~%zs:o|hfu=lwzygh b. try viewing it by whatever means you have available. c. go back to step 9, but do it *right* this time. rick miller <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <ricxjo@discus.mil.wi.us> ricxjo muelisto send a postcard, get one back! | enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion! rick miller // 16203 woods // muskego, wis. 53150 // usa 
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 evolution of sco newsgroups and mailing lists many readers enjoyed the opportunity to obtain and contribute useful information on sco open desktop since 1990 through the ancestral usenet newsgroup sco.opendesktop or it's companion mailing list. similarly, there was a demonstrated need for an information and discussion forum for sco products in general. with the increasing demand for accessibility and for additional sco newsgroups, many current contributors including those who have been active in circulating sco related newsgroups and mailing lists felt that the readership would be best served by creating a biz.sco.* hierarchy to improve propagation (and hence availability) worldwide. biz.sco.{opendesktop,general,announce} were newgrouped may 1, 1991 in accordance with accepted procedure within "biz". given the content, this change relocated the "opendesktop" newsgroup to a more proper place within the established usenet news hierarchy and adds the new "announce" and "general" groups. on aug 1, 1991, the former "sco-list@uunet.uu.net" became "scogen" in keeping with established biz.sco.* naming conventions. biz.sco.binaries and biz.sco.sources were newgrouped on june 1, 1992 to respectively accommodate sco xenix, unix and opendesktop specific binaries and source code. the binaries and sources news groups are moderated, with moderator and submissions information and policy outlined in the periodic imformational postings in those newsgroups. respecting usenet etiquite, these newsgroups are _not_ gated to mailing lists, but are archived on several nuucp and ftp hosts. biz.sco.magazine was newgrouped dec 14, 1992, to provide a discussion area for the readers, writers and publishers of sco magazine. subject to the usenet news hierarchies carried by your upstream feed, you are now able to subscribe to the following: newsgroup mailing list subscription biz.sco.opendesktop scoodt-request@xenitec.on.ca biz.sco.general scogen-request@xenitec.on.ca biz.sco.announce scoann-request@xenitec.on.ca biz.sco.sources <none> biz.sco.binaries <none> biz.sco.magazine scomag-request@xenitec.on.ca you are _strongly_ encouraged to obtain these newsgroups via usenet news mechanisms vrs mail. anyone having difficulty arranging a news feed for these newsgroups is welcome to email the undersigned and i'll do my best to help. we also offer all required software in source code form via anonymous ftp and uucp, as do many archive sites. if, after having explored all options, you are still unable to receive biz.sco.* as news, you may subscribe to the mailing lists. the 4 discussion newsgroups are bi-directionally gated to companion mailing lists, so anyone not having access to news but who does have a uucp or internet mail feed can still participate fully using email. mailing list subscribers should send their request to the appropriate "mailing list subscription" address above, including in the message body: add: subscriber_address -eg- add: your_logname@site.do.main -or- add: up!stream!yoursite!your_logname inclusion of an alternative working bang-path relative to a well know major functional site might prove beneficial. deletions are handled the same way, simply substitute "delete:" for "add:", ensuring that you use the exact same address you subscribed with. mailing list subscribers receive "how to post to the mlist" article submission information when their request is processed. if you don't receive an acknowledgement within a few days, check your routing and try a test message via xenitec.on.ca back to your host. in such cases, it's likely that someone, somewhere, is bouncing mail replies to you (and would do the same with mailing list traffic), and you'll want to resolve your connectivity problem before trying to subscribe again. mailing list subscriptions are free, subject to whatever arrangements you may have with the site(s) feeding you. should you receive no response or experience a sudden and prolonged drop to zero volume on one of the mailing lists, this indicates that we are no longer able to find a working route to your site. we loose a handful of subscribers this way each month. if this happens to you, please email us your known working bang-path relative to a major site. what's in the newsgroups (and mailing_lists where applicable): biz.sco.opendesktop: technical questions and answers and informative postings relating to past, present, and future implementations of the sco opendesktop operating environment and it's various bundled components. biz.sco.general: questions, answers and comments on sco products in general, and of course resulting discussions. biz.sco.announce: sco and sco developer product announcements of interest to current and future users of sco products, and to sco developers, resellers and distributors. (moderated, followups directed to biz.sco.general). biz.sco.sources: sysv or bsd source code for useful programs and utilities, modified to compile and run with various incarnations of sco xenix, unix, and/or opendesktop. biz.sco.binaries: binary packages compiled from sco compatible source code, often from source posted in biz.sco.sources and often installable using the sco "custom" utility. biz.sco.magazine: interaction between the sco magazine readers, writers and publishers. you should always endeavour to post your article to the most applicable newsgroup. for example, posting your odt question to the "general" newsgroup will preclude your question and answers to it from being saved in the public odt archives. appropriate crossposting is allowed. the undersigned is solely responsible for administration of the biz.sco namespace. suggestions for additional biz.sco.* newsgroups and/or mailing lists should be emailed to the address below. ed. a. hew, <edhew@xenitec.on.ca> ....!uunet.ca!xenitec!eah xenitec consulting services, kitchener on, canada +1 519 570 9848 trios training centres ltd. mississauga on canada +1 800-387-8649 [biz.sco.* newsgroups and mailing lists godfather] 
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 using the usersub stuff in perl, you can incorporate things like curses for use in perl. i was wondering if anyone had done this with x (preferably motif), and if so, where i could get the source for it? jesse w. asher (901)762-6000 varco-pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave., suite 400, memphis, tn 38119 internet: jessea@vpbuild.vp.com uucp: vpbuild!jessea 
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 three q's: 1) is it reliable? 2) how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x11 protocol? does it just draw everything as graphics into one window, or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly? 3) if i want to run ms word, for example, remotely, do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely, and then start ms word from that, or can ms word be started remotely on its own? thanks a lot! -- ethan 
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 i am admin for an rs/6000 running aix 3.2, x11r5, motif, and xdt3. i want to prevent the user from hitting cntl-alt-bkspc to exit x. try dontzap in /usr/lib/x11/xconfig ** free software association of germany ** great software should be free software phone: 069 - 6312083 data: 069 - 6312934 
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 hello, i am writing a program which forks of a number of child processes and each of the children printing things on the screen (quite messy in one window)... the "xterm -sxxd" option seems to be the solution to opening up slave windows only to display output and i use the following code to open up a pty (taken from stevens)...and manage to open up an x-term successfully.... the problem however is how do i write into this x-term ? please help! static char pty_name[12]; int pty_master( void ); int pty_master( void ) int i,fd; char* ptr; struct stat statbuff; static char ptychar[] = "pqrs"; static char hexdigit[] = "0123456789abcdef"; for( ptr = ptychar; *ptr!=0; ptr++ ) { strcpy( pty_name, "/dev/ttyxy" ); pty_name[8] = *ptr; pty_name[9] = '0'; if( stat( pty_name, &statbuff) < 0 ) break; for( i=0; i < 16; i++ ) { pty_name[9] = hexdigit[i]; if( (fd = open( pty_name, o_rdwr )) >= 0 ) return( fd ); return(-1); vinod email : vinod@ee.wpi.edu an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind -mohandas karamchand gandhi 
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 these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions. 1. [....question 1 deleted.....] 2. i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window. i want it at the same y coord, and their right/left sides touching. what i need to ask for is the x,y coord of the window manager's border for the main window. this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget(), immediately checking the x,y after the move and seeing that it is right, and in their next callback asking for the x,y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border. any help would be most appreciated. darcy_mccallum@mentorg.com i have done this before, but i'm not sure i used the best approach (although i tried several methods...). you have to run up the window heirarchy (using xquerytree()) until you get to the root window. now, this is not so simple because some window managers slap a window over the root window that is the same size as the root window, so be sure to take that into account for further calculations. calculate the position and width/height offsets for each window using xgetgeometry(). be sure to take the border_width into consideration. remember a windows border_width is on the outside of a window, so the windows x,y,width,height must be adjusted accordingly. all of this should give you pretty good numbers for how much space the window-manager is using. now, to place the new window, you have to use the same numbers to calculate where you want to place it, because the window-manager will re-parent it on the outside of where you place your window (if i remember correctly). disclaimer: all of this is from memory, and i no longer have the code. but i did get it working under several window managers correctly. feel free to call or e-mail for further info. mike d. mcgary voice: (214) 620-2100 intellection fax: (214) 484-8110 1603 lbj freeway, suite 780 arpa: mcgary@intellection.com dallas, texas 75234 uucp: intellection.com!mcgary@cs.utexas.edu 
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 i have been using a hds x-terminal, and really like it. what is really powerful is that it can run the x server without running a window manager. one can then run a special client x program called a window manager, either (1) run motif or openlook from it's own firmware (limiting the network traffic - but having no home). or (2) run motif or openlook from some home place (like a sparc, or vms). this is powerful, especially since i can exit one window manager (without killing windows) and then start up another manager. (some of my vms tools need special meta-mouse combos that work in one manager and not the other). well the question is: on a sparcstation running openlook, does anyone know how to break apart olwm from the olwm_slave program? basically i want to run only the server, and go somewhere else to run the window manager. please respond my e-mail (as well as posting) because of the large volumes in window.x) scott moody (206) 773-4313 "there are no answers .. just cross references" scott@shuksan.boeing.com uunet!bcstec!shuksan!scott 
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 three q's: 1) is it reliable? i use it all day every day (maintaining our ftp site and answering mail via support@qdeck.com), and i can honestly say that in the last few months i've never had my machine go down due to any sort of tcpip network manager instability. (of course, i've crashed my machine quite a few times on purpose, during beta testing and that sort of thing, but the tcpip portion is quite stable...) however, keep in mind that dvx and the network managers are only going to be as stable as the software they sit on top of (so if your underlying network kernel is flakey, you can't expect dvx to be terribly stable...) 2) how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x11 protocol? does it just draw everything as graphics into one window, or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly? it just goes as a window that has graphics drawn into it. (to vastly over-simplify what goes on, we just take the windows graphics api calls, and translate them directly to x-protocol; unfortunately, windows was not really written to be network-aware, so sometimes we see a speed penalty when an app does something stupid, like sending a big white bitmap to erase something rather than just drawing a white box; fortunately, that sort of thing is rare...) 3) if i want to run ms word, for example, remotely, do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely, and then start ms word from that, or can ms word be started remotely on its own? you need to run ms windows, which word then runs inside. you could run multiple windows programs within the one winx window, and windows has ways to automagically start winapps when you start windows, so in practice it's not really a major problem. i have my system set up so that i can run winx, which automatically starts word full-screen (for windows), so i never see any part of windows but word...) quarterdeck office systems - internet support - tom bortels pricing/ordering : info@qdeck.com | tech questions : support@qdeck.com bbs: (310) 314-3227 * fax: (310) 314-3217 * compuserve: go quarterdeck anonymous ftp: qdeck.com (149.17.8.10), leave your email address as password 
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 i am using xdm on x11r5 with ow3 and xview3 on sun3s and sparcs running sunos 4.1.1. prior to using xdm, i used to set path and other environment variables (like manpath, helppath, arch, etc) in my .login file. with xdm, the .login file doesn't get executed and therefore neither the olwm root-window nor my applications know about these variables. i always use the following in my .[t]cshrc: f ( $?login == 0 ) then source $home/.login and in .login: setenv login 1 so i don't need to set all environment variables in my .cshrc, but they get set if i login via xdm or xon | xrsh | rx and so on. hope this helps, bernward averwald, heinrichstr. 42, d-4600 dortmund 1, voice: +49 231 144048 fax: +49 231 144047, e-mail: bernward@moepi.do.open.de (b@rcc.de) i think i need a lear jet 
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 can anyone help with this? system: sparc classic, solaris 2.1, gcc 2.3.3, x11r5 when i try to build the xview libraries (xview3, patched with the patch from the x11r5-solaris kit), i get the following error: rm -f ndet_loop.o shared/ndet_loop.o gcc -fpcc-struct-return -e -o2 -i../../.././build/include -i/usr/x11r5/include -dsvr4 -dsysv -dfuncproto=15 -dos_has_locale -dos_has_mmap ndet_loop.c \ | xstr -l _libxview_xstr -c - gcc -fpcc-struct-return -fpic -o2 -i../../.././build/include -i/usr/x11r5/include -dsvr4 -dsysv -dfuncproto=15 -dos_has_locale -dos_has_mmap -c x.c \ -o shared/ndet_loop.o in file included from ../../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:29, from ../../.././build/include/xview_private/ntfy.h:24, from x.c:18: /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:25: parse error before `sigset_t' /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:25: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:26: warning: data definition has no type or storage class /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:29: parse error before `}' /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:29: warning: data definition has no type or storage class in file included from ../../.././build/include/xview_private/ntfy.h:24, from x.c:18: ./../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:286: parse error before `*' ./../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:286: warning: data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x.c:35: /usr/include/sys/user.h:226: `maxsig' undeclared, outside of functions ndet_loop.c:71: `nsig' undeclared, outside of functions ndet_loop.c:85: variable `ndet_sigvec' has initializer but incomplete type ndet_loop.c:88: parse error before `*' ndet_loop.c:88: warning: data definition has no type or storage class ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_fig_sig_change': ndet_loop.c:687: `nsig' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:687: (each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet_loop.c:687: for each function it appears in.) ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_signal_catcher': ndet_loop.c:751: parse error before `ucontext_t' ndet_loop.c:764: `sigset_t' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:764: parse error before `newmask' ndet_loop.c:766: `newmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:769: `oldmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:777: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c:795: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet_loop.c:798: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_send_delayed_sigs': ndet_loop.c:825: `sigset_t' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:825: parse error before `newmask' ndet_loop.c:837: `newmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:839: `oldmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:848: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c: at top level: ndet_loop.c:1022: parse error before `*' ndet_loop.c:85: storage size of `ndet_sigvec' isn't known *** error code 1 make: fatal error: command failed for target `ndet_loop.o' rm -f ndet_loop.o shared/ndet_loop.o gcc -fpcc-struct-return -e -o2 -i../../.././build/include -i/usr/x11r5/include -dsvr4 -dsysv -dfuncproto=15 -dos_has_locale -dos_has_mmap ndet_loop.c \ | xstr -l _libxview_xstr -c - gcc -fpcc-struct-return -fpic -o2 -i../../.././build/include -i/usr/x11r5/include -dsvr4 -dsysv -dfuncproto=15 -dos_has_locale -dos_has_mmap -c x.c \ -o shared/ndet_loop.o in file included from ../../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:29, from ../../.././build/include/xview_private/ntfy.h:24, from x.c:18: /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:25: parse error before `sigset_t' /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:25: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:26: warning: data definition has no type or storage class /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:29: parse error before `}' /usr/include/sys/ucontext.h:29: warning: data definition has no type or storage class in file included from ../../.././build/include/xview_private/ntfy.h:24, from x.c:18: ./../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:286: parse error before `*' ./../.././build/include/xview/notify.h:286: warning: data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x.c:35: /usr/include/sys/user.h:226: `maxsig' undeclared, outside of functions ndet_loop.c:71: `nsig' undeclared, outside of functions ndet_loop.c:85: variable `ndet_sigvec' has initializer but incomplete type ndet_loop.c:88: parse error before `*' ndet_loop.c:88: warning: data definition has no type or storage class ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_fig_sig_change': ndet_loop.c:687: `nsig' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:687: (each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet_loop.c:687: for each function it appears in.) ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_signal_catcher': ndet_loop.c:751: parse error before `ucontext_t' ndet_loop.c:764: `sigset_t' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:764: parse error before `newmask' ndet_loop.c:766: `newmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:769: `oldmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:777: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c:795: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet_loop.c:798: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c: in function `ndet_send_delayed_sigs': ndet_loop.c:825: `sigset_t' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:825: parse error before `newmask' ndet_loop.c:837: `newmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:839: `oldmask' undeclared (first use this function) ndet_loop.c:848: parse error before `)' ndet_loop.c: at top level: ndet_loop.c:1022: parse error before `*' ndet_loop.c:85: storage size of `ndet_sigvec' isn't known *** error code 1 make: fatal error: command failed for target `ndet_loop.o' obviously, most of this is due to the problem encountered while including <sys/ucontext.h> - i've tried several approaches, but can't get past this point. any help would be greatly appreciated. mahalo nui o kakou, henry stilmack ) computing systems manager ) perform random kindnesses uk/netherlands/canada joint astronomy centre ) and senseless acts of beauty 660 n. a'ohoku place, hilo, hi 96720 ) hps@jach.hawaii.edu 808-969-6530 ) 
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 the latest issue of the andrew view, newsletter of the andrew consortium is available. the simplest way to get it is via ftp from emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu (128.2.45.40) in directory ./newsletters; subdirectories ascii and postscript contain the newsletter in those if you have requested it in the past, you will receive an email copy. you may request to be placed on the mailing list by sending your request to info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu. fred hansen 
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 ubject: subscrive please subscribe me. e-mail: min@stella.skku.ac.kr 
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 "commercial"? there's a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial, it's-illegal-to-copy-this- and-we'll-sic-our-lawyers-on-you software. there is? then why does the documentation say: }commercial, government, and institutional users must register their }copies of xv, for the exceedingly reasonable price of just $25 per }workstation/x terminal. it doesn't sound like a "voluntary donation" to me. --dave system administrator, penn state population research institute #define enotty 25 /* not a typewriter */ 
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 a while back (i.e., several months) someone posted a method for allowing a user to choose (via xmenu and something else??) a window manager interactively at x startup time. could the original poster (or anyone else) please email a copy of the method to me, as i have lost the original posting? thanks. henry stilmack ) computing systems manager ) perform random kindnesses uk/netherlands/canada joint astronomy centre ) and senseless acts of beauty 660 n. a'ohoku place, hilo, hi 96720 ) hps@jach.hawaii.edu 808-969-6530 ) 
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 i'm going to be purchasing one of these soom for my ss2. does anyone have any experience with this card? positive or negative comments welcome! please respond immediately. joe mcguckin joe@islandsw.com island software oilean!joe@sgi.com (415) 969-5453 
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 does any one out there have experience with planet x, i am considering buying it to use on a sparcstation ipc, in this way i can run mac programs from the sparc. would you recommend buying this piece of software and what is the emulation on the sparc like? does it give a window of a mac or does it give a window of just the individual programs? any information would be greatly appreciated. institute of human genetics i university of minnesota i box 206 umhc i "if all you have is a hammer, harvard street at east river road i you tend to look at every minneapolis, mn 55455 i problem as a nail." voice (612) 625-5128 i -maslow fax (612) 626-7031 i email dean@lenti.med.umn.edu i 
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 i'm working on a project that involves storing an application's rendering to an x display and then playing it back again. rather than "reinvent the wheel", it like to find: * a file format for saving x protocol. * software that saves and replays such a session. any ideas out there? i've heard that there is a version of xscope that will save and replay sessions. i'd be willing to share much of the code i develop back to the x community. axel............ axel@cv.hp.com 
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 yet another xview question: is there an (easy) way of detecting when a user has resized a frame _externally_ by way of the window manager (e.g. grabbing and letting go of the frame resize corners under olwm)? if so, please let me know! | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | 
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 is there a tn3270 program which support xterm? i don't like x3270 at all. you can't copy with other windows. thanks. 
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 dear netters: could you mail the source code of the book: "advanced x window application programming" by johnson and reichard to me? if you need any source code, just ask me. thank you very much! zeng, qiyong. zeng,qiyong. suny at buffulo 
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 given that all the source code contains explicit permission to use or modify the code without fee in addition to the shareware notice, i would say that the shareware notice is unenforceable. all you need to do is make minor changes to create a derivative work which is explicitly allowed under the first part of the copyright notice. of course, this would be circumventing the author's wishes on the subject, but i'd say if you're not going to pay him no matter what, you'd be on relatively safe ground with that approach... in fact, given the internal contradictions of the copyright notices, i'd guess none of it could ever be enforced, but not being a lawyer, i can't be positive. regardless, the fees he's asking are not excessive, and i would encourage anyone who wants to use the program to pay them if at all possible. even though it is unlikely that you have actual legal obligations to pay the author, it would be reasonable to do so, to support his efforts if nothing brad daniels ` | "if money can't buy happiness, daniels@neosoft.com | i guess i'll have to rent it." i don't work for neosoft, and | - weird al yenkovic don't speak for my employer. | 
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 $id: open-look-programs.faq,v 1.17 93/03/21 17:17:55 lee exp locker: lee $ contents: commercial: devguide 3.0 contact: sunpics lets you use drag and drop to create an open look application with xview, olit, uit or tnt. very easy to use. free: dirt there _might_ be an olit port of this ui builder. commercial: exocode contact: expert object one of the first third-party gui builders to support open look, using the xview toolkit. it was reviewed in sunexpert magazine in 1990. commercial: objectbuilder contact: parcplace, debra frances debra@parcplace.com, +1 303 440 9991 uib is a user interface builder which supports building applications that support both open look and motif. it generates code for parcplace's oi c++ toolkit and can make use of user created subclasses. note: `oi' can also display an osf/motif gui at runtime. free: wcl uses x resources to specify an xt widget hierarchy and actions to user-defined callbacks. uses olit, xt or motif. commercial: xvt contact: xvt systems (+1 303-443-4223) lets you write code to a common subset of open look, motif, microsoft windows, the macintosh gui, and even terminals (using curses). you buy an xvt toolkit for each environment. free: dstool xview-based program that plots lorenz attractors and other chaotic things in real time. also includes a mathematical expression interpreter. ftp: macomb.tn.cornell.edu free: ace/gr -- graph and analysis program, xvgr ftp: ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu [129.95.72.34]; xvgr-2.09.tar.z in /ccalmr/pub/acegr handles x-y scatterplots, lineplots, bargraphs, fft analysis, running averages, polynomial fits, etc. free: robot - a scientific graph plotting and data analysis tool contact: robin corbet <corbet@astro.psu.edu> description: graph plotting in various styles & axes; data manipulation - arithmetic, functions, smoothing, folding, sorting; fitting to data using gaussians, polynomials, lorentzians, and/or user defined functions; annotation of graphs; log files; commands with loops etc.; colour; postscript output. ftp: astrod.astro.psu.edu (128.118.147.28) in pub/astrod ftp: files: robotx0.35.tar.z - everything ftp: files: robotmanual.ps.z - just the documentation. ftp: files: robot.sun4.z - binary built on a sparcstation. requirements: robot is xview based. user interface portions of code are written in 'c'. data manipulation code is written in fortran. hence a fortran compiler is also required or the public domain f2c package. alternatively, a sparc binary is available by anonymous ftp. free: boss description: an open look ui to the casio boss scheduler free: props ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu /pub/r5untarred/contrib/lib/xview3/clients/props/* description: this is the openwindows properties editor, that appears when you choose the properties... item from the workspace menu. free: contool ftp: from export.lcs.mit.edu description: a special-purpose console-window that can filter out or take special action on specified console messages; written by chuck musciano. requirements: xview free: faces description: displays pictures of people who have sent you electronic mail. violates the data protection act in the u.k. commercial: bimail 400 contact: bim (+32-2-759.59.25) pge@sunbim.be x.400-address: c=be;a=rtt;p=bim;o=horizon;s=geurts;g=patrick notes: bimail is a complete x.400 electronic mail system. it consists in a user interface which gives access to all x.400 services with a consistent look and feel, a message transfer agent (mta) system which can transfer messages over x.25, tp.4 and tcp/ip (using rfc 1006). a gateway to smtp mail is also available. free: calentool description: a day/week/month/year at-a-glance calendar and almanac. ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu:/contrib/calentool2.2xp1.tar.z contact: bill randle, tektronix, inc. <billr@saab.cna.tek.com> free: emacstool description: a sunview program that was converted to xview, and is included with the gnu emacs distribution. free: genix contact: ian darwin <ian@sq.com> a genealogy program, written in c using guide. incomplete as of jan '93; inquire for details. free: workman - audio cd player for x11 (sun, ultrix) requirements: xview libraries ftp: ultrix binary: ftp.hyperion.com in /workman ftp: ftp.ucsc.edu in "incoming" - database of over 750 cds contact: koreth@hyperion.com (steven grimm) free: pan - postit notes free: wais ftp: sunsite.unc.edu description: networked, distributed text-retrieval system. olit-based front end. notes: you might to need to add -lce to the makefile. free: xrolo - rolodex card index/address book free: xv_display description: an xview program for showing a text file, like more(1). commercial: searchit 1.0 contact: sunsoft or sunexpress us: 1-800-873-7869; uk: 0800 89 88 88 germany: 01 30 81 61 91; france: 05 90 61 57 platforms: sparc, solaris 1.x price: $249 notes: searchit is a full text search and retrieval application designed to improve individual and group productivity. it makes an index to files and can later retrieve documents by words or phrases, ranking the results in relevance order. commercial: showme contact: sunsoft notes: conferencing software that lets multiple connected users share the same drawing screen, with bitmap capture and moveable pointer. requirements: you can only run one showme per computer, so you have to have a cpu per conference member. free: xvman - man pages viewer free: xvtdl - todo list manager ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu /contrib/xvtdl-4.0.tar.z, /contrib/xvtdl-4.0-readme requirements: xview libraries contact: mike jipping jipping@cs.hope.edu (bitnet: jipping@hope) organisation: hope college department of computer science free: name_finder contact: richard.elling@eng.auburn.edu +1 (205) 844-2280 ftp: ftp.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.91] pub/name_finder1.2.tar.z. patches: pub/name_finder1.2.compile.patch1. requirements: openwindows 3.0, c++ 2.1 or greater to recompile description: name_finder was orginally designed as a replacement for the name finder missing from the openwindows version 3.0 mailtool. it has since grown into a tool for several electronic mail related activities including: interaction with local listserv robots for handling mail lists, requesting full.name style mail aliases from your local postmaster, and providing mailbox status information ala finger(1). name_finder is written in c++ (cfront 2.1) using gxv++ version 1.1. if you don't have access to a c++ compiler, a precompiled sparc executable is included in the distribution. free: bibcard interface for bibtex databases requirements: xview ftp: iamsun.unibe.ch [130.92.64.10] in /x11/bibcard-1.11.tar.z ftp: includes source and sparc binary for sunos 4.1.1. version: 1.11 description: gui for mantaining bibliography databases which can be used with latex, tex and framemaker free: moxftp -- interface to ftp. ftp: ftp.chpc.utexas.edu as file /packages/x/xftp.1.1.tar.z. contact: bill jones jones@chpc.utexas.edu requirements: x11, olit or motif or athena widgets notes: formerly called xftp. compiles under (at least) ultrix, aix 3.1.5, aix 3.2, convex os, sunos, unicos 6.1.4, and irix. uses olit. bug: can also use osf/motif and athena widgets. free: olvwm -- open look virtual window manager contact: scott oaks ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu in the contrib directory patches: there are two patches requirements: xview 3 description: olvwm is a version of olwm that manages a `virtual desktop' (hence the `v' in its name). it shows a little map on the screen, with the currently displayed area represented by a little rectangle. you can move around by dragging the rectangle or with the arrow keys. this lets you run several clients (applications) and move the display around from one to the other. olvwm was derived from the openwindows 3.0 olwm. free: ftptool -- open look front-end to ftp requirements: xview ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib free: hyperlook contact: the turing institute requirements: openwindows 3 (running the xnews server, not x11) hypertext package written entirely in news. runtime from turing.com in /pub or ftp.uu.net (graphics/news/hyperlook1.5-runtime.tar.z) maestro (ftp from sioux.stanford.edu) multimedia authoring tools, including support for sound, text & video. xvnews (ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu) an xview-based newsreader for netnews. free: xvttool ftp: cs.dal.ca:/pub/comp.archives ftp: nuri.inria.fr:/x/contrib/clients ftp: lth.se:/pub/netnews/alt.sources/volume92/dec/xvttool*.z ftp: src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/usenet/comp.archives/x11/terminal/xvttool description: a vt100/102 emulator, in both xview and sunview versions. includes buttons for the pf keys, etc. commercial: pageview - postscript previewer contact: included in openwindows as part of deskset. notes: type 1 support only in openwindows 3.0.1 under solaris 2.1. antialiasing support - with colour openwindows 3 try pageview -aa -dpi 150 note that pageview uses the x11/news server to interpret the postscript, and thus won't run on an x terminal or other non-openwindows server. it's *not* enough to be runing an open look ui [tm] window manager such as olwm. commercial: xps - postscript program editor and previewer contact: included with openwindows 2.0 under demo and share/src notes: only runs under openwindows 2. commercial: psh contact: included with openwindows simple interface to news and the openwindows server free: ralpage ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu in contrib/clients notes: crispin goswell's postscript interpreter, much hacked. not open look compliant. no type 1 font support. there are other versions of this called `xps', `postscript', etc.; don't confuse this `xps' with the one mentioned above. free: ghostscript (from the free software foundation) supports type 1 fonts. not open look based. free: cmdtool, shelltool requirements: xview 3 toolkit notes: these are included in the xview source distribution from export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib; they're also included with sun's commercial: switchterm contact: micro resources inc., columnbus, ohio, usa, +1 614 766-2335 notes: a version of xterm with an open look ui, print interface, ansi x3.64 colour escape sequences, etc. commercial: isoterm contact: the bristol group ltd., +1 415 925-9250 and (49) 6105-2945 (germany) requirements: openwindows 3 (??) other products: isotex, isofax, power base notes: an olit-based terminal emulator. i couldn't get the demo version to give me a shell prompt, although it did look like it was a pretty fll vt340 emulation, with double-height characters, colour, fonts, grahics and so forth. with the union flag (the british flag) as their logo i somehow expected an english address, perhaps in bristol... contact sunsoft (or sun) and ask for the catalyst open look guide, which lists over 200 pages of applications. you can also get the free cdware cd/rom, which contains demo versions of several popular open look ui applications. once you've done this, you can often simply contact the vendor concerned to have the license upgraded from demo, and receive the full product documentation. product name: author/editor - sgml-based text editor/word processor company name: softquad inc., +1 416 239 4801, mail@sq.com description: word processor or text editor that manipulates iso 8879 sgml documents. interfaces: open look ui (xview), osf/motif, mac, ms/windows product name: xtra xwidgets company name: graphical software technology e-mail: info@gst.com phone: 310-328-9338; fax: 310-376-6224 interfaces: open look, motif platforms: sparc, hp9000s300/400/700, ibm rs6000, interactive 386 requirements: x11, xt, xol (or xm) libraries and headers; x11 price: $795/single user, $3000/network, $5000/source support-price: $400/30 calls source-available: yes description: the xtra xwidget library contains a set of widgets that are subclassed from and compatible with either olit or motif widgets. the library includes widgets that implement the following: spreadsheet, bar graph, stacked bar graph, line graph, pie chart, xy plot, hypertext, hypertext based help system, and data entry form. widgets have been successfully integrated with both teleuse from telesoft and builder xcessory from ics. a free demo is available for any of the supported platforms. product name: xrt/graph company name: kl group e-mail: sun.com!suncan!klg!info, info@klg.com phone: +1 416 594-1026 description: xrt/graph is a graph object that extends the xview toolkit; there are also xt versions for olit and motif. xrt/graph supports line plots, scatter-plots, strip-charts, bar charts, stacking bar charts, pie charts and filled-area charts, singly and in combination. it supports real-time updates, true postscript output, and intelligent user feedback. it comes with builder, a graph prototyping tool, which supports code & resource file generation. a free demo (vmgraph) is available. there are free integration kits for uim/x, teleuse, and builder xcessory (others in progress). availability: xrt/graph for xview and olit are only available on sparc. xrt/graph for motif is available on a dozen or so platforms. free: slingshot xview extension slingshot provides rectangles (like the xt intrinsics' rectobj gadget), drag-and-drop support, images, icons and text, trees, lines, arrows... get it by ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu, in /contrib/slingshot2.0.tar.z (remember to use binary mode in ftp!). you can also get it by sending mail to archive-server@gazooch.eng.sun.com with the body of each message containing a line like send sspkg2.0 part01 part02 going up to send sspkg2.0 part17 part18 send sspkg2.0 docpart01 docpart02 docpart03 send sspkg2.0 docpart04 docpart05 docpart06 you can ask for one file at a time to reduce the impact on intermediate mail sites. ask the mail server for help with the subject line: "help". a human can be reached at archive-manager@gazooch.eng.sun.com. add a line in the message path <your-mail-address> if you think the normal automatic reply address might not work. ada bindings for xview sun ada 1.1 includes among other things an ada source code generator for devguide. it uses the verdix xview ada bindings. it does not yet [july 1992] support gfm (the guide file manager). c++ bindings for xview qualix's xv++. sun: sparc, sunos 4.1 sun: sparc, solaris 2 (actually 3.0.1?) others: none so far... there are said (by sun) to be two or three ports of openwindows either available now or in progress. contact anthony flynn at open vistas international (anthony@ovi.com) for more information. (originally they said 35, but perhaps they meant 3.5) openwindows source is available - commercially, it costs about $5,000 for the server, including typescaler and the toolkits; deskset (filemgr etc) is another $25,000; tooltalk is $40,000 or so. what: xview 3 system: apple a/ux porter: lmj@uncompaghre.jax.org (lou jones) ftp: encyclo.jax.org notes: the libraries and utilities (olwm, cmdtool, etc) are available for anonymous ftp from encyclo.jax.org. i used gcc 2.1 to compile the sources. if there is enough interest, i can make the diffs system: concurrent 7000 (68040 based) porter: sinan@mtesol.boeing.com (sinan karasu) system: decstation/ultrix porter: dscott@ittc.wec.com (dave scott) ftp: media-lab.media.mit.edu:~ftp/xview3-ultrix.4.2-mips.tar.z notes: let me stress that this is *not* fully tested, but seems to work pretty well. please let me know about any problems you find. problems i already know about: large buttons under *any* non-sun x server (non-xnews; i.e. any standard mit x11r[45] server) have the bottom of the button chopped off. we're working on this one. :-) xview 3 is also available on the dec freeware cd, from decus. [actually this seems *not* to be dave scott's port; please accept my apologies for listing this incorrectly. a correct entry will appear as soon as i get the necessary information. -- lee] system: hp 720 porter: (?) ftp: tesla.ucd.ie [137.43.24.44], /pub notes: includes hp 720 build, hp xview patch file, xvgr. system: hp9000/300 series porter: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk (tim chown) system: hp9000/7xx series ftp: ftp.csc.liv.ac.uk (138.253.42.172) hpux/x11/xview-3.part[123].tar.z system: intel (sysvr4/i386) porter: dawes@physics.su.oz.au (david dawes) ftp: ftp.physics.su.oz.au, suphys.physics.su.oz.au /esix_4/x11r5 hierarchy notes: his patches were for esix 4.0.3 but should work on dell, isc and intel svr4 with no worries. the files are readme.xview3 and xview3.diff.z. see also: linux system: ibm rs/6000 porter: tmcconne@sedona.intel.com (tom mcconnell) compiler: bsdcc ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/xview3/fixes/xview3_rs6k_unofficial.patch.z notes: there is still a problem with tty support for the rs/6000. for instance, the cmdtool will not work. still, most everything else works. for those of you who have already installed my previous patch, i have put a separate patch for just the shared library problem. this file is contrib/xview3/fixes/xview3_rs6k_xview_lib.patch.z. system: linux porter: kenneth osterberg <lmfken@lmf.ericsson.se> icompiler: gcc 2.3.3, libc4.2 ftp: tsx-11.mit.edu /pub/linux/binaries/usr.bin.x11/xview3l2 ftp: sunsite.unc.edu notes: inlcudes olvwm, uit system: sgi porter: rainer sinkwitz <sinkwitz@ifi.unizh.ch> ftp: export.lcs.mit.edu:/contrib/xview3/fixes/xview3_sgi_unofficial.patch.tar.z notes: system: solbourne series 5 porter: tmcconne@sedona.intel.com (tom mcconnell) in general, there is no point in using xview 2 if you have xview 3 available; it's a good idea to look for an xview 3 port first. moving from xview 2 to xview 3 is usually simply a matter of recompiling, unless you've done "dirty tricks" or used undocumented calls. system: stellar gs100 (stardent 1000) and stardent 1500 & 3000 porter: arvai@scripps.edu (andy arvai) ftp: perutz.scripps.edu (137.131.152.27) in the pub/xview directory notes: stardent is now kubota pacific (kpc) system: harris nighthawk 4000 system (cx/ux unix) porter: andy@harris.nl (andy warner) status: commercial system: sgi/iris porter: (?) ftp: wuarchive.wustl.edu:graphics/graphics/sgi-stuff/xview/xview2 system: vax/vms porter: tgv inc (?) notes: a company called tgv makes a product called "xview for vms". they made xview 2.0 libraries. i haven't seen them advertising xview 3.0 libraries yet. commercial: aviator - flight simulator for gx-equipped sparcstations contact: artificial horizons inc, aviator-interest@ahi.com; +1 415 367 5029 requirements: openwindows (2 or 3), sunos 4.1 or later, sparc gx or gxplus free: hexsweeper - minesweeper game based on hexagons contact: lee@sq.com, include hexsweeper in subject requirements: openwindows 3.0 or later toolkit: tnt 3 free: free: sidtool - pacman game ftp: ftp.uu.net /usenet/comp.sources.games/volume1/sidtool/* an open look pacman(tm) surrogate that appears as a debugger - the bad guys are code bugs that move around your screen; you (the good guy) chase them with a 19" monitor that eats bugs. commercial: simcity contact: dux software, los altos, ca price: us$89 requirements: openwindows 3 (uses news). doesn't run on a 4/110 with cg4 :-( free: spider (included in openwindows under `demo' and `share/src') a patience-style card game with two packs of cards and excellent bitmap cards. i suggest recompiling to allow the cards to have rounded edges. free: xblackjack (ftp from export.lcs.mi.edu as contrib/xblackjack-2.1.tar.z) a motif/olit based tool constructed to get you ready for the casino. liam quin, manager of contracting, softquad inc, +1 416 239 4801 lee@sq.com open look ui faq; metafont list; hexsweeper news game; lq-text text retrieval 
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 archive-name: x-faq/speedups last-modified: 1993/4/20 how to maximize the performance of x -- monthly posting compiled by art mulder (art@cs.ualberta.ca) more ram, faster cpu's, more disk space, faster ethernet... these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation. well, more hardware isn't always an option, and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity. this "faq" list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation, without purchasing more hardware. performance is a highly subjective issue. the individual user must balance `speed' versus `features' in order to come to a personal decision. therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts. this document is specifically concerned with x. there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation. however, they are outside the scope of this document. [ people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance, might want to look at the o'reilly nutshell handbook "system performance tuning" by mike loukides. imho, it contains a well-written, comprehensive treatment of system performance. i'm unaware of any other similar books. --ed.] table of contents 0. introduction & administrivia 1. what about the "other x faq"? 2. window managers 3. the x server which server? locking the server into ram? starting your server about the resources file define your display properly 4. clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client 5. miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what!? 6. other sources of information 7. author & notes ! = changed since last issue. * = new since last issue. introduction & administrivia this document is posted each month, on or around the 15th, to the usenet news groups comp.windows.x, news.answers, and comp.answers. if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old (see the "last-modified" date above) you should probably locate the latest edition, since the information may be outdated. if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and/or your site does not receive them and/or this article has already expired, you can retrieve this faq from an archive site. there exist several usenet faq archive sites. to find out more about them and how to access them, please see the "introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" posting in news.answers. the main faq archive is at rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]. this document can be found there in /pub/usenet/news.answers/x-faq/speedups. if you do not have access to anonymous ftp, you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the command "send usenet/news.answers/x-faq/speedups" in the message body. what about the "other x faq"? david b. lewis (faq%craft@uunet.uu.net) maintains the informative and well written "comp.windows.x frequently asked questions" document. its focus is on general x information, while this faq concentrates on performance. the comp.windows.x faq does address the issue of speed, but only with regards to the x server. the gist of that topic seems to be: "use x11r5, it is faster than r4". (please see the x faq for complete details). window managers there are a lot of window managers out there, with lots of different features and abilities. the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features. at this point, most respondents have agreed upon "twm" as the best candidate for a speedy window manager. a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger, is turning off unnecessary things like "zooming" and "opaque move". also, if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner, you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows. joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) i've found that a good font for tiling is 7x13 (aka: -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--13-100-100-100-c-70-iso8859-1 ). it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun (1152x900 screen) and still get two 80 column terminal windows side-by-side on the display with no overlap. other font suggestions will be accepted. the x server which server? make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware. if you have a monochrome monitor, use a monochrome x11 server. on my monochrome sun, i haven't noticed much difference between the xsun (colour) server and xsunmono, however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about 800k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging. [ thanks to: jonny farringdon (j.farringdon@psychol.ucl.ac.uk), michael salmon (michael.salmon@eos.ericsson.se) ] how your server was compiled can also make a difference. jeff law (law@schirf.cs.utah.edu) advises us that on a sun system, x should be compiled with gcc (version 2.*) or with the unbundled sun compiler. you can expect to get "*very* large speedups in the server" by not using the bundled sunos compiler. i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high-quality commercial compilers on the market. locking the server into ram? has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged? eg: via a call to plock(). does this help performance at all? i've had one inquiry on this topic, and a few pointers to the plock() function call, but no hard evidence from someone who's tried it. i am not in a position to give it a try. [thanks to: eric c claeys (ecc@eperm.att.com), danny backx (db@sunbim.be), juan d. martin (juando@cnm.us.es) ] starting your server joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) : if you start up a lot of clients in your .xsession or whatever, sleep for a second or two after launching each one. after i changed my .xclients script to do this, logging in actually took *less* time... we have a heavily loaded system without much core, though. this sounds crazy, but i have confirmed that it works! warner losh (imp@solbourne.com) provided me with a good explanation of why this works, which i have summarized here: when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections. a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts. this process touches a large number of pages. any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu, and more importantly, memory. if you put a sleep in there, you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up. similarly, there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts: toolkits registering widgets, resources being fetched, programs initializing state and "databases" and so forth. all this activity is typically memory intensive. once this initialization is done ("the process has reached a steady state"), the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages. by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your .xinitrc , you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation's limited resources this is most definitely a "your mileage may vary" situation, as there are so many variables to be considered: available ram, local swap space, load average, number of users on your system, which clients you are starting, etc. currently in my .xinitrc i have a situation like: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 1; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & i've experimented with: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 2; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 3; exec xterm ) & (sleep 4; exec xterm ) & i've even tried: (sleep 2; exec start_x_clients_script ) & and then in start_x_clients_script i had: (sleep 1; exec xclock ) & (sleep 1; exec xbiff ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & (sleep 1; exec xterm ) & [ the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my .xinitrc, and had settled down into a "steady state" before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched. ] all of these yielded fairly comparable results, and so i just stuck with my current setup, for its simplicity. you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you. loading fonts takes time and ram. if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use, you'll get speed increases in load-up time. one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts (one small, one large, one roman, whatever suits you) and configure all your clients -- or at least all your heavily used clients -- to use only those few fonts. client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server. this will also conserve server resources, since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server. [ farrell mckay (fbm@ptcburp.ptcbu.oz.au), joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) ] eg: my main xterm font is 7x13, so i also have twm set up to use 7x13 in all it's menus and icons etc. twm's default font is 8x13. since i don't normally use 8x13, i've eliminated one font from my server. oliver jones (oj@roadrunner.pictel.com): keep fonts local to the workstation, rather than loading them over nfs. if you will make extensive use of r5 scalable fonts, use a font server. about the resources file keep your .xresources / .xdefaults file small. saves ram and saves on server startup time. joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) one suggestion: in your .xdefaults (.xresources) file, try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications. for example: *reversevideo: true then, separate your resources into individual client-specific resource files. for example: $home/lib/app-defaults. in your .login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath: setenv xuserfilesearchpath $home/lib/app-defaults/%n [ the "comp.windows.x frequently asked questions" faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work. --ed.] so, when xterm launches, it loads its resources from .../app-defaults/xterm. xdvi finds them in .../app-defaults/xdvi, and so on and so forth. note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource-file naming pattern. you can check in your system app-defaults directory (often: /usr/x11r5/lib/x11/app-defaults/) to find the proper name, and then name your personal resource files with the same name. this is all documented in the xt specification (pg 125 & 666). [thanks to: kevin samborn (samborn@mtkgc.com), michael urban (urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov), and mike long (mikel@ee.cornell.edu). kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers.] this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits: - easier to maintain / more usable. - fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource_manager property. as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker, since it doesn`t have to load all your resources. - applications only process their own resources, never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them. it also has drawbacks: - the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up. this doesn't seem to make that much of a performance difference, and you might consider this a huge boon to usability. if you are modifying an application's resource database, you just need to re-run the application without having to "xrdb" again. - xrdb will by default run your .xdefaults file through cpp. when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs, they will not. watch out for this!! i had c style comments in my .xdefaults file, which cpp stripped out. when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources. xt did *not* provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files, it simply, silently, aborted processing the resource file. the loss of preprocessing (which can be very handy, e.g. ``#ifdef color'' ...) is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management. - you may also run into some clients which break the rules. for example, neither emacs (18.58.3) nor xvt (1.0) will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in .xdefaults. - when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored, your client will not find its resources. loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources. casey leedom (casey@gauss.llnl.gov) a possible compromise suggestion that i have (and am planning on trying) is to put resources for all my heavily used clients (eg: xterm) into my .xdefaults file, and to use the "separate resources files" method for clients that i seldom use. define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server. in that situation, rather than setting your display environment variable to "<hostname>:0.0", where <hostname> is the name of your workstation, you should set your display variable to "unix:0.0" or ":0.0". by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests. [thanks to patrick j horgan (pjh70@ras.amdahl.com)] see the _display names_ section of the x(1) man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name. "i don't think it's stock mit, but (at least) data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn't set specially." rob sartin (88opensi!sartin@uunet.uu.net) [jody goldberg (jody@algorithmics.com) sent me an xlib patch to change stock r5 to use local communication even if display is not properly set. i don't want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non-mit patches and so have elected not to include it here. hopefully mit will apply this minor (~8 lines) patch themselves. in the meantime, if you want to try it yourself, email jody. --ed.] if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running. think also about the _kind_ of programs you are running. for example: is there a smaller clock program than xclock? unfortunately, i haven't really noticed that programs advertise how large they are, so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word. [ suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients (eg: xclock, xterm, xbiff) are welcome. --ed.] i've received some contradictory advice from people, on the subject of x client programs. some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based, since xt, xaw and other toolkits are rather large. others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries. in this case, using a non-xt (for example) client program may actually _increase_ the amount of ram consumed. the upshot of all this seems to be: don't mix toolkits. that is, try and use just athena clients, or just xview clients (or just motif clients, etc). if you use more than one, then you're dragging in more than one toolkit library. know your environment, and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment. [thanks to: rob sartin (88opensi!sartin@uunet.uu.net), duncan sinclair (sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk | sinclair@uk.ac.gla.dcs) ] a better clock for x 1) xcuckoo suggested by: duncan sinclair (sinclair@dcs.gla.ac.uk) available: on export.lcs.mit.edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of *another* program. saves screen real estate. 2) mclock suggested by: der mouse (mouse@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu) available: larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (132.206.1.1) in /x/mclock.shar non xt-based. extensively configurable. it can be made to look very much like mit oclock, or mostly like xclock purely by changing of course, the ultimate clock --- one that consumes no resources, and takes up no screen real estate --- is the one that hangs on your wall. a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm: | abandon all hope, ye who enter here | this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution. ugly maybe, but at my site it's still the most used. i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many, if not most sites. laziness? isn't there a better terminal emulator available? see below. if you must use xterm, you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage. [ oliver jones (oj@roadrunner.pictel.com), jonny farringdon (j.farringdon@psychol.ucl.ac.uk) ] 1) xvt suggested by: richard hesketh (rlh2@ukc.ac.uk) : available: export.lcs.mit.edu in /contrib/xvt-1.0.tar.z "...if you don't need all the esoteric features of xterm, then get hold of xvt ... it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog! " this was written as a partial 'clone' of xterm. you don't have to rename your resources, as xvt pretends to be xterm. in it's current version, you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm. i've heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature, but i've not found any update (march 1993): i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin (brian.warkentine@eng.sun.com) regarding xvt. he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm. for instance, xvt may initialize slightly faster, but compare scrolling speed (try this quickie benchmark: /bin/time dd if=/etc/termcap bs=40) and see which program can scroll faster. also, while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements (we don't have any hard numbers here, does anyone else?) shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm's paging requirements are not that major. as an experiment, he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm, but it made little difference, since if you never use it, it never gets brought into memory. so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm. in summary? caveat emptor, your mileage may vary. if you can provide some hard data, i'd like to see it. specifically: how much ram each occupies, how much swap each needs, relative speed of each 2) mterm suggested by: der mouse (mouse@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu) available: larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (132.206.1.1) in /x/mterm.src/mterm.ball-o-wax. "i also have my own terminal emulator. its major lack is scrollback, but some people like it anyway." tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster. from scott barman (scott@asd.com) comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets: i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets, i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes, particularly the initial one in the field. examining the what was going on with xscope i found it. it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non-zero and the focus is on a text field widget (or even just a text widget) the i-beam cursor will blink. every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets, the widget code is making a request to the server (copyarea). the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to 0. it is not noticeable on a 40mhz sparc, but it does make a little difference on a [slower system]. this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas. consider your heavily used clients, are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don't use large bitmaps (gif's, etc) as root window backgrounds. - the more complicated your root window bitmap, the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows (or redraw, etc) - these take up ram, and cpu power. i work on a sun sparc and i'm conscious of performance issues, i can't comprehend it when i see people with a 4mb sun 3/60 running xphoon as their root window. i'll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation. - if you're anything like me, you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients, and so rarely see the root window anyway. [ thanks to qiang alex zhao (azhao@cs.arizona.edu) for reminding me of this one. --ed.] a quicker mouse using xset, you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse. i use "xset m 3 10" in my .xinitrc file, which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist. see the xset man page for further ideas and information. hint: sometimes you may want to *slow down* your mouse tracking for fine work. to cover my options, i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager. e.g. (for twm) : menu "mouse settings" { "mouse settings:" f.title " very fast" ! "xset m 7 10 &" " normal (fast)" ! "xset m 3 10 &" " system default (un-accelerated)" ! "xset m default &" " glacial" ! "xset m 0 10 &" programming thoughts joe english (joe@trystero.art.com) : to speed up applications that you're developing, there are tons of things you can do. some that stick out: - for motif programs, don't set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons, labels, lists, et. al.; use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest-level manager widget. again, stick to as few fonts as possible. - better yet, don't use motif at all. it's an absolute pig. - don't create and destroy widgets on the fly. try to reuse them. (this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits, too.) - use a line width of 0 in gcs. on some servers this makes a huge - compress and collapse multiple expose events. this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable francois staes (frans@kiwi.uia.ac.be) : just a small remark: i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily. they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc, but i didn't find the time yet. i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free, and the differences were indeed very noticeable ( somewhat 5 times faster) [ any confirmation on this from anyone? --ed.] andre' beck (andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de) : - unnecessary noexpose events. most people use xcopyarea/xcopyplane as fastest blit routines, but they forget to reset graphics_exposures in the gc used for the blits. this will cause a noexpose event every blit, that, in most cases, only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it's event-loop again and again. - thousands of xchangegc requests. this "gfx context switching" is also seen in most handcoded x-apps, where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again. xt uses a definitely better mechanism, by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters. this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection (by moving it toward the client startup phase). say what!? some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first: david b. lewis (by day: dbl@osf.org, by night: david%craft@uunet.uu.net) : how about this: swap displays with someone else. run all your programs on the other machine and display locally; the other user runs off your machine onto the other display. goal: reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server. i'm not in a situation where i can easily try this, but i have received the following confirmation... michael salmon (michael.salmon@eos.ericsson.se): i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference. i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion. this helps a lot on my poor little ss1+ with only 16 mb, it was essential when i only had 8 mb. casey leedom (casey@gauss.llnl.gov) : [the x11 server and the client are] competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine. not really a major problem, except that the x11 client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing. timothy h panton (thp@westhawk.uucp) : firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu's are mostly idle, x's cpu usage is bursty. so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu-intensive at the same time is small. if they are not then you get twice the cpu+memory available for your the second factor is that context switches are expensive, using 2 cpu's halves them, you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network, but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network (typically 20k vs 4k for a pipe), allowing even fewer context switches. other sources of information volume 8 in o'reilly's x window system series, ``x window system administrator's guide'' is a book all x administrator's should read. adrian nye (adrian@ora.com): a lot more tips on performance are in the paper "improving x application performance" by chris d. peterson and sharon chang, in issue 3 of the x resource. an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition 1992 conference proceedings. this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers. author & notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder (art@cs.ualberta.ca) suggestions, corrections, or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted. layout suggestions and comments (spelling mistak's too! :-) are also welcome. currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions. if you do not want to be credited, please tell me. speedup-x-faq is copyright (c) 1993 by arthur e. mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don't try to make money off it, or pretend that you wrote it. ...art mulder ( art@cs.ualberta.ca ) | "do not be conformed to this world, department of computing science | but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta, edmonton, canada | of your mind, ..." romans 12:2 
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 does anyone know of any public domain toolkits for creating x-windows applications? i have used the "xt toolkit", but i would like to create pop-up windows/dialog boxes, etc, using some sort of drawing editor instead of trying to specify what i want, sizes, positions, etc, within actual source code. basically, i am looking for something similar to borland's "whitewater resource toolkit" for ms-windows, expect i need one for x-windows instead. any help would be much appreciated. i recently found an excellent source for x-windows programs. i've seen quite a few x-windows toolkits up there. the place is: export.lcs.mit.edu go to the contrib directory. its full of x-windows programs. hope this helps! 
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 i wonder if anybody know of a x-window-based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos (prefered), hpux, or ibm aix. if you are running sun openwindows, you can use "pageview". this is an x window postscript previewer like "ghostview", but displays much nicer yes, but it's broken on ow 2.0. it does not handle multiple pages well. if you don't have the proper postscript commands it will draw the entire document on the same page instead of pausing after each page. i haven't tried ow 3.0 yet, though. ...v....1....v....2....v....3....v....4....v....5....v....6....v....7.. gordon t. sasamori hc05 csic mcu design (email: gordons@ai.sps.mot.com, nippon motorola ltd. voice: 81(3)3280-8339, fax: 81(3)3440-0033) 
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 i have some brand new copies of the following books for sale. some are down-rev, don't know which or by how much: look to # of pages, copyright date, etc. for clues. "postscript language reference manual", adobe sys. inc., addison-wesley, copyr. 1986, printed 1990. 299 pages. $22.95. "postscript language tutorial and cookbook", as above, 243 pages, $16.95 i'll sell the above two books as a set for $15 postage paid w/in us. "openlook gui functional specification", sun micro, addison-w, copyr. 1989, 564 pages, $34.95. "openlook gui application style guidelines", 388 pages, $24.95. i'll sell the above two books as a set for $15 ppd. w/in us. o'reilly & associates definitive guides to the x window system, copyr. 1990, "for version 11", "revised and updated for release 4": vol. 0: "x protocol reference manual," 498 pages $30 vol. 1: "xlib programming manual," 672 pages $34.95 vol. 2: "xlib reference manual," 792 pages $34.95 vol. 7: "xview programming manual," 640 pages $30 i'll sell the above four books as a set for $35 ppd. w/in us due to the high hassle/$ ratio i am asking for pre-payment by check. i'll be queing cashing, packing, and shipping so be prepared to wait 3 weeks for your books to show up. if you'd like to pick them up, i live in san francisco. same prices though. e-mail me if you are interested. thanks! 
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 does anyone know of a direct way to print an image of an .xbm file. please reply directly and i'll post a summary. any opinion presented here is my own, and does not reflect the policy of my employer, nasa, or the ames research center. roger smith sterling software at nasa-ames research center rsmith@proteus.arc.nasa.gov if change is -- inevitable -- predictable -- beneficial -- doesn't logic demand that you be a part of it? one man cannot summon the future. but one man can change the present! -- kirk and the alternate spock, "mirror, mirror," stardate unknown 
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 i am looking for info on products that can take windows source on a unix box (such as sparc), and produce a motif executable. another requirement is that mfc 2.0 should be supported. i already know of: wind/u by bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin by mainsoft are there any others? i will post a summary if it's wanted. dls@autodesk.com dls@netcom.com daniel l smith, autodesk, sausalito, california, (415) 332-2344 x 2580 disclaimer: accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake 
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 hi, friends, our sparc workstation is now equippied with a gt-accelerator. we want to use it to display stereo images. the accelerator has double buffers. how can we access the buffers and switch between them ? with which functions can we do that ? with functions from xgl, phigs, xlib or xlib-extension ? your help will be highly appreciated. yonglong xu uni. of hannover 10.5.93 
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 x/motif gurus, how do you handling scaling of x text while performing zooming operations on figures? is restricting user to select scalable fonts too restrictive and a absolute no no? any books that have discussion on this topic? should have really taken more of those computer graphics courses but, now its too late -:( ) i will summarize response. thanks in advance. -subodh ( smn@netcom.com ) 
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 # does anyone know if the following is possible, and if so how do i go about # doing it. # i want to be able to display remote x11 applications on a vaxstation 2000 off # of an internet node. here is where the problem comes up, the vaxstation isn't # connected directly to the internet but is connected via decnet to a node that # does have a connection to the internet. does anyone know if it is possible to # get the display to use tcpip from the remote internet node down to my local # internet node and then send it via decnet down to the vaxstation 2000? for the machine that is connected to the internet, what is it running? if it is running vms, then if you obtain multinet for it, multinet comes with a tcp/ip to decnet gateway for x11. patrick l. mahan --- tgv window washer ------------------------------- mahan@tgv.com --------- waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered - lazarus long a capital crime. for a first offense, that is from the notebooks of lazarus long 
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 hi all, this is the first time i've posted to the net, so i hope this is going to the right people. i'm looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc. the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work. if anyone can e-mail me any recommended packages/horror stories/etc i would be greatful. thanks in advance mark wilkinson | mark wilkinson | e-mail : wilkinson_m@roborough.gpsemi.com | | senior software engineer | markwilk@lincoln.gpsemi.com | | gec plessey semiconductors | | | roborough, plymouth, england | | \_______________________________|_____________________________________________/ 
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 well, thanks largely to subscribers of this group, here's xrastool 1.0, the animation package i started just over 3 weeks ago. a number of the solutions provided through discussions here have been incorporated in the code, so have a look! the full blurb has been posted to comp.windows.x.announce. this post is in two parts. to unpack the source code, extract the articles into file1 and file2 (for example). use a text editor to remove leading and trailing text at the "---cut here---" markers (including the markers themselves). next type "cat file1 file2 > file", then "uudecode file" and "zcat xrastool1.0.tar.z | tar xvf -". read the readme file for instructions on how to proceed from there. enjoy! p.s. the source is also available for anon ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu in the contrib/ directory. if there is enough demand, a static binary will be provided for those without the xview libraries or include | derek c. richardson | tel: (0223) 337548 x 37501 | | institute of astronomy | fax: (0223) 337523 | | cambridge, u.k. | | | cb3 0ha | e-mail: dcr@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk | ---cut here--- begin 644 xrastool1.0.tar.z m'yv0>.2$f4/gs1lv,5s > &@h<.'$"-*g$bqhl6+%4%ho%&c!@@ &d'$b''c m8\b1)4&&7*d1al8:,v[0b$&c)hp8(6w$f&$#),:?0(,*'4jtj-&c2),j7<jt m:=. pl>3+apr!,h6:0d.8*$bm.o17/6-*d1)5f1),^nw'ecqln8,6?.b"$c m)$<9-7r"w<nwk]^_@ ,+'oq"a0(0*d! 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<instance id="comp.windows.x67989">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x67989" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hello everybody out there ! i'm trying to compile x11r5pl23 and motif 1.2.1 on a hp running hp-ux 8.05. but it' seems to be not very succesful, because i have only hp.cf config-files for hp-ux 7.0. i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings. the motif applications are compiled quite well, but they won't run. i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq, but i cannot fix it. the xkeysymdb-file is at the right location and it works fine under sunos. probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong config-file. please help me ! thanx in advance markus koch universitaet-gh paderborn email : raistlin@uni-paderborn.de rechnerbetreuung phone : +49 5251 60 3322 warburger str. 100 +49 5251 60 3318 w4790 paderborn, germany markus koch universitaet-gh paderborn email : raistlin@uni-paderborn.de warburger str. 100 phone : +49 5251 60 3322 w4790 paderborn, germany 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x67990">
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 we are looking for a public domain or low price case , running on aix/6000 3.2 and/or solaris 1.1 and/or sun/os 3.1, for x/motif and/or x/openlook. i'm not a regular follower of these groups, so i would prefer an answer to this e-mail. thanks in advance, regards, --osvaldo | osvaldo gervasi | | centro di calcolo - universita' degli studi di perugia | | piazza universita', 2 - i06100 perugia | 
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 on 12 may 93 12:46:17, raistlin@uni-paderborn.de (markus koch) said: markus> nntp-posting-host: samos.uni-paderborn.de markus> hello everybody out there ! markus> i'm trying to compile x11r5pl23 and motif 1.2.1 on a hp running markus> hp-ux 8.05. but it' seems to be not very succesful, because markus> i have only hp.cf config-files for hp-ux 7.0. markus> i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings. markus> the motif applications are compiled quite well, but they won't run. markus> i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq, but markus> i cannot fix it. the xkeysymdb-file is at the right location and it markus> works fine under sunos. markus> probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong markus> config-file. markus> please help me ! markus> markus> thanx in advance markus> markus if you installed x lib xt by redefining projectroot, you will find that during the install it recompiles one of the files in x lib that does the search for xkeysmdb and embeds the search path for the file based on whatever projectroot was defined. to confirm this what happened, because i'm guessing, go to mit/lib/x and do strings xstrkeysym.o | egrep xkeysymdb -guy singh, ixi internet: guy@x.co.uk vision park uucp: guy@ixi.uucp cambridge bang: ...!uunet!ixi!guy cb4 4zr, uk tel: +44 223 236 555 
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 i wonder if anybody know of a x-window-based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos (prefered), hpux, or ibm aix. reason i'm looking for this utility is that i've downloaded these large postscript documents and i'd like to know how useful (and how long) they are before commiting them to the printer and potentially wasting 200 pages of paper and hogging the printer for 1/2 hour. get ghostscript and ghostview. ghostview is a postscript previewer that uses ghostscript. from the ghostview readme: ghostview -- an x11 user interface for ghostscript. ghostview is full function user interface for ghostscript 2.4. brief list of features: - ghostview parses any known version of adobe's document structuring - page size is automatically determined from the document structuring comments. the user is able to override the values from the comments. - window size is set to the bounding box for encapsulated postscript figures. - default page size is letter and can be changed via xresources or application defaults file to a4 (or any other valid size) for our european friends. - scrollbars appear when necessary. - page orientation is automatically determined from the document structuring comments. the user is able to override the values from the comments. - ability to view at 4 orientations: portrait, landscape, upside-down, and seascape (for those who rotate landscape the other direction). - ability to preview in any supported visual. (can preview in gray-scale or color on a color monitor.) - ability to mark pages for printing, or saving. (good for people that printed a 100 page document and lost page 59 due to a printer jam.) - can popup zoom windows at printer resolution (1 display dot = 1 printer dot). the ghostview distribution includes a ghostview widget that people are encouraged to use in other programs. ghostview-1.3 is available via anonymous ftp from: prep.ai.mit.edu:/pub/gnu/ghostview-1.3.tar.z appenzell.cs.wisc.edu:/pub/ghostview-1.3.tar.z from the ghostscript readme: * this file describes version 2.4.1 of ghostscript. * ******** an overview of ghostscript ******** ghostscript is the name of a set of software that provides: - an interpreter for the ghostscript language, which very closely resembles the postscript (tm) language; and - a set of c procedures (the ghostscript library) that implement the graphics capabilities that appear as primitive operations in the ghostscript language. the ghostscript language interpreter and library are written entirely in c, with some assembly-language accelerators for ms-dos platforms. currently, ghostscript is known to run on the following platform families: - ibm pc and compatibles with ega, vga, supervga, or compatible graphics under ms-dos 3.1, 3.3, or 5.0; - a wide variety of unix systems using x windows version 11, release 3, 4, and 5, including sun-3, sun-4, sun-386i, sun sparcstation 1; generic 80386 machines running 386/ix; h-p 9000/300 and 9000/800; decstation 2100 and 3100; vax running ultrix; sequent symmetry; convex c1 and c2; tektronix 4300; sgi iris indigo; - sun workstations (sun-3, sparc, sun-386i) running sunview; - vax, vms with x11r3/4/5, gcc and dec c compiler (dec c compiler version 3.1 or later is required). (get ghostscript from the same ftp site you get ghostview.) tim williams com: (703) 704-1685 night vision & electronic sensors directorate dsn: 654-1685 amsel-rd-nv-vispd (williams) fax: (703) 704-1705 ft. belvoir, va 22060-5677 e-mail: williams@nvl.army.mil 
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 i'd like to know if there is any ***_free_*** fax software for xwindows that i can use. i have a sun 4/110 running mit x11r5. i checked the export.lcs.mit.edu list, and there didn't seem to be anything there. "tea: a noxious brew of various oriental leaves, containing toxic acids. personally, i rather like it." (paraprhased from dr. who: peter davidson) philb@cats.ucsc.edu philb@soda.berkeley.edu check prep.ai.mit.edu. it's called fax-3.2.1.tar.z or something to that effect and is the software for netfax. be forewarned that it requires (at the moment) a fairly costly $450 fax modem with certain capabilities to use it. doug hughes system/net admin - martin marietta aerospace, valley forge, pa doug@happy.vf.ge.com or doug@land.vf.ge.com 
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 check out a program called pc-xview. i've used it before, and from what i can tell, it's exactly what you're looking for. last i checked, you should be able to find it for about $160 a copy. * schwarte@cs.colostate.edu * "of /course/ i'm certain!" - heisenberg * * schwarte@lamar.colostate.edu * "he hadn't a single redeeming vice" * * where does bob barker go when* -oscar wilde * * i watch vanna white? *wasting time is an important part of living. * 
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 hi all, this is the first time i've posted to the net, so i hope this is going to the right people. i'm looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc. the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work. if you already own all the "clone" equipment then there are lots of such programs (see a current copy of unix world magazine). *but* your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone. (from experience). you would be much better off with an xterminal if this is a new install. the performance will be at least four times better. in addition it would be much easier to install and use. on top of that they will cost about the same (price a clone with 4mb ram, ethernet card, very high performance graphics card, good monitor, server software, tcp/ip for clone software, mouse, keyboard, etc, etc, etc.... you spend a whole lot of $$$$). i can get 15" tektronix xp11 terminals for under $900, and the performance is over 80000 xstones..... | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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 as distributed, twm thinks everything with three or more colormap cells must be a colour screen. here's a patch to have it use the screen's visual class. *** twm.c.dist wed may 12 14:56:55 1993 --- twm.c wed may 12 15:47:53 1993 *** 343,352 **** --- 343,384 ---- scr->xorvalue = (((unsigned long) 1) << scr->d_depth) - 1; + #ifdef oldcode if (displaycells(dpy, scrnum) < 3) scr->monochrome = monochrome; scr->monochrome = color; + #else + { xvisualinfo template; + xvisualinfo *visualinfo; + int nitems; + template.visual = defaultvisual(dpy, scrnum); + template.visualid = xvisualidfromvisual(template.visual); + template.screen = scrnum; + visualinfo = xgetvisualinfo(dpy, visualidmask|visualscreenmask, + &template, &nitems); + if (nitems == 1) { + switch (visualinfo->class) { + case staticcolor: + case pseudocolor: + case truecolor: + case directcolor: + scr->monochrome = color; + break; + default: scr->monochrome = monochrome; + break; + else { + (void) fprintf(stderr, + "%d visual match(es), assuming mono\n", + nitems); + scr->monochrome = monochrome; /* assume */ + #endif /* setup default colors */ scr->firsttime = true; george d m ross, department of computer science, university of edinburgh kings buildings, mayfield road, edinburgh, scotland, eh9 3jz mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk voice: 031-650 5147 fax: 031-667 7209 
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 hi all, this is the first time i've posted to the net, so i hope this is going to the right people. i'm looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc. the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work. if anyone can e-mail me any recommended packages/horror stories/etc i would be greatful. thanks in advance mark wilkinson | mark wilkinson | e-mail : wilkinson_m@roborough.gpsemi.com | | senior software engineer | markwilk@lincoln.gpsemi.com | | gec plessey semiconductors | | | roborough, plymouth, england | | \_______________________________|_____________________________________________/ xoftware from age software has proven good by me. runs under ms windows and is relatively stable. techsup@age.com could probably help you out more. --andy andrew justin caird jobs: 1) nuclear engineering student university of michigan 2) ring compton camera project dept. of nuclear engineering 3) parallel computing code work andrew.caird@umich.edu acaird@umich.edu andrew.caird@um.cc.umich.edu ----------------------> acaird@engin.umich.edu <----------------------------- 
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 anyone able to get xwd to dump anything that is not black & white? my text is not black....all i get is window borders. i tried the -xy option only because i didn't know what it did.....still no effect. any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. 
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 |> ever since i started to use xwindows (which is to say recently) i've |> accumulated a few questions about x-applications. three examples follow: |> 1) it was recently mentioned on comp.os.linux that there exists a post- |> script viewer. i am interested in this and any x-editor that is an |> improvement on xedit (which i find annoying). try to get axe - it's a wonderful x based editor and much simpler to use than emacs what is a overkill. of course, emacs is no editor but a religion. |> 2) at one point i was the proud owner of an amiga (and have since upgraded |> to a '386-33). workbench (the point-and click interface) used ".info" |> files to store the data for icons associated with applications on a given |> volume. i have noticed no such architecture anywhere under linux; how |> does xwindows associate icons with applications? can one edit icons or |> generate new ones for applications somehow? (if it makes a difference |> i'm running 'twm'.) 1) don't call going from an amiga to a ibm 'upgrade' 2) the amiga workbench did the job of a desktop manager, and there is no really amazing good x desktop manager in the public domain. (i'm currently writing one... but it's in very early stage) 3) xdtm may be a medium good replacement. 4) x associates icons with nothing. a number of x window managers associate icons with windows, in a way to ease window management. but this has nothing to do with icons of a desktop manager application. 5) the tool bitmap is there for simple icon drawing. |> 3) i've noticed some people have somehow discovered a way to display .gif |> (or some kind of picture files) in the background, either replacing or |> overlapping some the usual grey background employed by xwindows. i heard |> this was done using some application, but i don't recall what it was. xv -root -max -quit whatever-image-file +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre.beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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 i'm running hp-ux 8.07 with hp vue 2.01 and i need a hardcopy of the login window (the one asking for login and password) to include in a manual. i have tried: xwd -display hostname:0 -root -out login.xwd from a login on a remote terminal, but it doesn't work. xwd seems to wait for the window server, but the window server doesn't answer. any suggestions? i must use xwd because i don't have access to ftp and i can't obtain another program to grab the screen. thanks in advance nadia pitacco - nadia pitacco siap sistemi s.p.a. - - via g.b. grassi, 93 - 20157 milano italy - - e-mail: morgaine@siap.sublink.org - 
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 i run twm and would like to execute some program before leaving twm. in other words i would like to run some program before i do f.quit. is it possible to make a menu section which would contain these two parts? in your menu definition, put: "quit twm" f.function "execute and quit" then define: function "execute and quit" { !"some_program" f.quit barry margolin system manager, thinking machines corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar 
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 i have a lots of problems using xview (libraries release 3.2) in order to do the following: + i want to create a modal dialog which block the program flow (a syncronous dialog, ala macintosh) , as the notice panel does, but with text item, list item, and other xview objects. + the modal dialog also must allows the timer to be called (why notice doesn't do that?). the problems are: - using the "xv_window_loop" functions most xview objects dont work (as the list item), and the timers aren't called. - with the "notify_dispatch" explicit i have problem because: "...never attempt to do direct dispaching from within a callback routine..." as say the "xview programming manual (third edition)" on page 486 (uhm... i know this number!!! :->). but i need to do dispatching just inside a callback routine! help me, please!!! thanks in advance, --- giovanni p.s. please, send replay directly to my address belove (i haven't direct access to internet). giovanni beani list s.p.a. p.za dei facchini, 10 - 56125 pisa fax (050) 500697 my email address is: list@applelink.apple.com beware: this address is shared by many users, so put the word "gbeani:" at the start of subject field and follow it by the real subject. thanks. 
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 may i humbly suggest desqview/x? (of course, i'm biased...) i have a weird, oddball, one of a kind video card. it's an orchid fahrenheit. i get to run it in 640x480 with dvx. at least i don't have to worry about straining my eyes with that super vga stuff. 
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 i am planning to convert my motif 1.2 app from pixel to font units which would all be set in the app's resource file instead of hard coded in the program. however, the word here is from people who tried this already that for some unknown reason xmform offsets placed in the resource file are still interpreted in pixel units forcing people to code those offset font units into the program. can somebody confirm this? joe pannon pannon@bcsfse.ca.boeing.com 
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 ok, i'm being driven batty. trying to create popup-menus (ie. button3 press, and a menu appears). i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal, but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree. i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded() and a little twiddling, but something is escaping me. name : david koblas domain: koblas@netcom.com affiliation: extra mile consulting phone: +47 (83) 38663 quote: "time has little to do with infinity and jelly donuts." 
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 i need the tool described in the subject line. is there such a tool available via ftp? if so, i'd appreciate it if someone could e-mail me the location and pathname. saad mufti personal library software e-mail : mufti@pls.com 
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 hi folks, i'm trying to compile xfig 2.1.7 on a ss1+ running sunos 4.1.1 and ow 2.0, and i'm having a little trouble with make/imake. specifically, make bombs when it needs to use any xaw file. this isn't surprising since x11 files on suns with the standard ow 2.0 distribution are in various places under /usr/openwin (xaw files are in /usr/openwin/share/include/x11/xaw !!) actually, the real problem is that i know squat about imake, and i don't know how to tell imake where the x11 files are. i can see from the makefile that it's looking in the wrong places, but the first line of the makefile reads # makefile generated by imake - do not edit! help! is there some way i can edit the imakefile to tell it where to look? (i have set defines = -dopenwin_bug, as it said to in the readme file.) email and post are both fine. thanks in advance, 
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 hi netters, having inherited a solbourne (s-4000 : sun 4 compatible), i was wondering if somebody has ported x11r5 to this beast. since solbournce computer inc. folded up i don't know where i can get the kernel to move from r4. since they never joined the mit consortium, the regular distribution doesn't work. any pointers will be highly appreciated. __/_ // o __ __ (_/ (_(_(/_(_(_<_/ < julian.anigbogu@loria.loria.fr 
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 hi all, this is the first time i've posted to the net, so i hope this is going to the right people. i'm looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc. i highly recommend starnet's micro-x. they have versions for dos and windows, with support for pc/tcp, or the clarkson packet drivers. i have used it successfully with twm, mwm, and olwm, over both ethernet and slip. and their tech support is top notch. they really impressed me. kevin j. jarnot (jarnot@kin.lap.upenn.edu) | "the monkey-boys are evil - lead programmer/analyst/keyboardist | lord whorfin is supreme..." univ. of pennsylvania language analysis center | 3700 market st, suite 202 phila, pa 19104 | "vita non jerk" 
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 newsgroups: comp.windows.x path: linus.mitre.org!linus!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!bnrgate!bnr.co.uk!uknet!warwick!qmw-dcs!qmw!demon!xact.demon.co.uk!ptm organization: x-act solutions limited x-newsreader: tin 1.1 pl3 lines: 8 i am looking of information regarding uimx. i believe this is an application front end generator tool for motif (among others). whould someone given me a contact? i need to get hold of the programmers' guide, or something like it. paul mahoney, x-act solutions limited smail: 20 shipley lane, cooden, bexhill-on-sea, east sussex, tn39 3sr email: ptm@xact.demon.co.uk ... pmahoney@cix.compulink.co.uk phone: +44 424 846368 i went to the xworld convention in ny and talked to the people from bluestone who make uimx. they sent me a huge 3 ring binder of info and a demo tape. let me know what you need. steve chase schase@xodus.mitre.org 
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 price: pc-xview for dos $445.00 for 1 $1780.00 for 5 ncd just announced a new generation of pc-xview. they changed the name a little though and i can't remember exactly... pc-xsomething. it now supports windows and their press release implies that since it's still priced in the $500 range and it's so feature-full why buy anything else? (disclaimer: this is not a direct quote from the literature, but i think it sums it up. also, i have never used the product.) 
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 an application we *must* use requires upper-case input. i'd like to be able to simply move my cursor into the window where that application is running (just a text window, xterm or some such) and have everything i type be entered as all caps. when the cursor is in any of my many other windows, i want to automatically return to normal functionality. i have point-to-type set. is there a way to do this in x (specifically ow 3.0 on sparcs)? is there a way to mess with .xdefaults to make a category of window do this? any hints would be most appreciated. i program in c but not x, although i can pick up somthing that's not too involved. thanks kindly. kevin weinrich computer sciences corp. kbw@helios.ath.epa.gov 
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 xm++/commoninteract another user interface development system if you would like to implement x-toolkit applications with c++ in a style like this... // mini sample application ///////////////////////////////////// class test : public xmwindow { void cmd(char*); void quit(void*); public: test() : xmwindow("xm++ test window") {} void initialize(); void test::initialize() { xmdropdownmenu* menu = createdropdownmenu(); menu->addlabel("&file"); menu->additems( entry("menu item &one", cb(test::cmd)), entry("menu item &two", cb(test::cmd)), nullentry); menu->addseparator(); menu->additem( entry("e&xit", cb(test::quit))); addsubpane(edit, "myedit"); edit("myedit")->settext("hello world."); void test::cmd(char* n) { edit("myedit")->settext(n); void test::quit(void*) { exit(0); void xmapp::initialize() { (new test)->initialize(); ...then continue reading (contents of the current release's readme): xm++ is a user interface framework for the c++ language built upon x11 and the x-toolkit. it is designed to be a simple and intuitive programming interface to access the functionality of commonly used widgets. xm++ was initially created for the motif widget set, now support for the athena widgets was added. applications created with xm++ run in both environments without changes, although many nice features are only available when using motif. in some situations xm++ extends the underlying toolkit (i.e. providing a combobox borrowed from ms-windows), but never tries to replace it - data of user interface objects is left to the widgets and only duplicated in rare cases. xm++ has nothing common with motif++ besides the general idea to encapsulate motif widgets in c++ objects and the '++' in it's name. many ideas for the xm++ architecture came from digitalk's smalltalk version, which provides an easy to use framework for windows/pm/mac applications (in the very first time of development i used the windows dialog editor and a simple parser to create similar smalltalk and xm++ dialogs :-). top level objects in xm++: * 'windows', 'systemdialogs' and 'toolboxes' which use the automatic layout feature of various composite widgets in motif and xaw * 'userdialogs' which can be individually laid out with a user interface builder (a first version of such a dialog editor is included in this distribution) controls (children of top level objects): 'statictext', 'staticimage', 'pushbutton', 'checkbox', 'radiobutton', 'edit', 'listbox', 'combobox', 'groupbox', 'panearea', 'drawing', 'toolbar' the staticimage and all the button classes can display b/w (x-bitmap format) or color (gif format) pictures as an alternative to a label text. event handling is done by a simple but powerful mechanism which redirects xt callbacks to member functions of xm++ objects. commoninteract(ii) is built upon the xm++ drawing class and provides components for building direct manipulative applications. is is a very simplified implementation of some features from the commoninteract system (research project of our institute in 1991), an approach to define a software achitecture for implementing direct manipulative applications with multiple interaction media (i.e. sound, alternative input devices). if you are interrested, look into the june 1993 issue of the joop (sigs publications - journal of object oriented programming) - there should be our paper about commoninteract (but be aware, that it is our 'state of the art' from 1991). commoninteract(ii) is still undocumented and is included because it was used to implement the dialog editor. it currently supports only drawing primitives (lines, rectangles, circles...), but we plan to extend it to support bitmaps and some controls also. known problem: the xm++ drawing class has no redrawing strategy (always redraws the whole window, even after minimal changes like selecting an object), this looks very ugly on slow displays and should be fixed. about this first release: xm++ is still incomplete and has a lot of bugs but we are using it here for smaller applications which are running without problems. so i think i can call it a 'beta release' which can be used to develop applications for any non-critical purposes. commoninteract may be called a 'pre alpha release'. it's development will be continued this year because we plan to use it for another research project here. besides incompleteness and the redrawing problem it seems to be stable and can be used for experimental applications. platforms: this release was compiled and tested on: hp9000/720 running hp-ux 8.07 sun sparc running sunos release 4.1.1 pc-at386 running linux v0.99pl6 caution: although the whole stuff was initially developed using an at&t standard c++ compiler - this release is tested only with gnu g++ 2.3.3 or above (the next release will be tested with both compilers). where to get it: i have uploaded it on: export.lcs.mit.edu as: /contrib/xm++.0.5.tar.z (send a mail, if you cannot find it there, e-mail addr. below) where to find more information: the .../doc directory contains install - how to build the libraries and examples readme.gnu - problems and limitations when using gnu g++ (read!!) usersguide.txt - a tutorial how to use xm++ reference.txt - a first try of a xm++ class reference manual the readme files in the .../samples gives a brief description of each of the seven samples. xm++/commoninteract is free software for any non-profit purposes, see the file .../lib/copyright for details. send any comments, bug reports and donations :-) to the author: bernhard strassl vienna user interface group institute for applied computer science and information systems university of vienna lenaugasse 2/8, a-1080 wien, austria e-mail: xmplus@ani.univie.ac.at 
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 hello *.*, i'm looking for a good explanation and example of the usefulness of the -s option for xterm: slave mode on file descriptor xxx. sure, but xterm -sp00 does not seem to grab what arrives on my window. where is my misunderstan- ding ? tia. frederic pierre. ensps/lsit 7 rue de l'universite f-67000 strasbourg france tel: (33) 88 35 80 84 fax: (33) 88 35 31 76 e-mail: fred@sobel.u-strasbg.fr ==========================hamradio: fc1hfd================================= 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68087">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68087" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 i am just beginning to try using the athena toolkit and am having some problems getting started. i think that some files are missing on the system, but there is the possibility that they are just in a different directory. when i try to link my program it can't find xtinitailize, xtrealizewidget, xtmainloop, xtcreatemanagedwidget, or commandwidgetclass. i've included intrinsic.h and command.h. i also had a problem on compile with xtncallback but replaced that with a null in order to compile and see if there were any other problems. i haven't used a toolkit before and this is simply an example i got from the manuel. can someone tell me where i might look for these calls, that is, in what file not what directory they are supposed to be under because the system manager doesn't believe in standard directories and generally does things his own way. (i am using unix) thank you for your assistance. t. j. adamsson 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68088">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68088" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 has anybody built an x11r5 server that can run on a personal decstation 5000 line with ultrix 4.3? the only catch is that being "personal" machines, we did not install decnet onto them, which the xdec server on gatekeeper any replies welcome... joe shelby stu_jwshelby@vax1.acs.jmu.edu 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68089">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68089" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 thanks for all the responses. i've made contact with the uk distributor :-) paul mahoney, x-act solutions limited smail: 20 shipley lane, cooden, bexhill-on-sea, east sussex, tn39 3sr email: ptm@xact.demon.co.uk ... pmahoney@cix.compulink.co.uk phone: +44 424 846368 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68109">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68109" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> ok, i am looking for a decent x based text editor for the the following |> reasons: |> o i hate emacs |> o i hate vi |> o i hate xedit |> coming from a pc based environment having been brought up on |> borland's excellent turbo c/pascal environments, something with the |> following properties would fit the bill |> o pull down menus |> o accelerator keys |> o multiple windows |> o mouse aware |> o regular exp support |> o mappable key bindings |> o easy to use |> o and most important of all....free |> does such a beast exist? sure sounds like axe to me. michael salmon #include <standard.disclaimer> #include <witty.saying> #include <fancy.pseudo.graphics> ericsson telecom ab 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68110">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68110" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 *oh boy* have i wanted this too. however, i believe that the cursor will be under the server's control (could be wrong)? on an xterminal, for example, if the server was not the one controlling the cursor, then trying to get the xterm application to do the blinking would cause needless and yucky network overhead (consistantly). most people who write cursor blinking code just implement the simple case: a straight 500msec (or so) on/off cycle. however, the cursor will work much better if cursor blinking is suppressed (i.e. the cursor is made visible) any time the cursor moves and for .5 to 1 sec thereafter. if you don't do this, the cursor will be hard to track when in motion. you allways could port and use emu from export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/emu.tar.z. we've implemented a blinking text cursor for the very reasons people mentioned. you can even configure the actual size of the text cursor (horizontal / ver- tical line cursors, smaller block cursors), turn on and off blinking, set the blink rate and so on. you even get blinking text - ok, enough i haven't looked at the xterm code in this respect, but from the memories i have when we had to decide whether to start with xterm and make it do what we wanted (mostly the blinking text), i'd say it won't be easy, since xterm is a hairy mess (understandable if you follow it's roots back to x10). the actual task to get the cursor to blink isn't that difficult if you provide the right hooks. as antonio mentioned, you'll have to show the cursor directly after it has moved, or people will become confused. since it's a good idea to take the cursor off the screen when you do anything on screen anyways, this isn't very complicated. you'll just have to start the blink process with the cursor showing directly after it's mapped. as for the portability of emu and it's newest version. the one on export is still the same as on the r5 contrib tape. we wanted to get out a new release for over six months now, but unfortunately we're drowning in work. but since the changes aren't affectiong emu's behavior much, i'd say whoever wants to try emu shouldn't wait for a new version. as is, emu won't work on bsd derived systems (e.g. suns) with anything else than a csh. there is a fix to this, which is very short (remove one line of code). i'll put this on export today. michael elbel, digital-pcs gmbh, muenchen, germany - me@dude.pcs.com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe - mia fermentation fault (coors dumped) 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68112">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68112" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 sorry if this is a faq but : could someone please tell me where i can get the patch(es) for x11r5 so that i can compile it under solaris2.1 export.lcs.mit.edu:/contrib/r5.sunos5.patch.tar.z get xsun.multi-screen.tar.z while you're at it. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68113">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68113" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> > price: |> > pc-xview for dos $445.00 for 1 $1780.00 for 5 |> ncd just announced a new generation of pc-xview. they |> changed the name a little though and i can't remember |> exactly... pc-xsomething. |> it now supports windows and their press release |> implies that since it's still priced in the $500 range |> and it's so feature-full why buy anything else? |> (disclaimer: this is not a direct quote from the |> literature, but i think it sums it up. also, i have |> never used the product.) it's called pc-xware. it is based on ncd-ware, their x-terminal software (which , imho, is excellent). pc-xware will include x-remote and be optimized for 32 bit machines. it's x11r5 based. it will support remote management, etc. not an ncd employee, just a fan :) edward j. gallant iii 37213 georgia tech station atlanta, georgia 30332 e-mail: egallant@cc.gatech.edu phone: (404) 853-9393 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68114">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68114" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have a problem with x11r5 on a sun386i an i hope that someone can help me with it. i've built x from the mit sources after applying all patches i have got (i think 23). building was easy. after installing everything i started x but nothing happened but the screen and the keyboard freezed, the machine seemed to hang. i loged in from another machine an found the sun386i running well. 'ps' told me that there's a x-server and a xterm running. and with some experimenting with the mouse and repeatedly pressing ^d i blindly hit the xterm, endet the session and got my prompt back. i guess it's a device problem but i did not find the correct device yet. i've got a sun386i with a b/w framebuffer (ace-6 0688 94v-0, rev 53) sunos 4.0.2 and rom 4.4. please help me. i'm able to run clients on the sun and send the output to other machines but that's not what i did it for. thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68118">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68118" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 ok, i'm being driven batty. trying to create popup-menus (ie. button3 press, and a menu appears). i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal, but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree. i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded() and a little twiddling, but something is escaping me. read the documentation for the simplemenu (4.2.3 positioning the simplemenu). the reference is to the r5 documentation. i had not done this before but in less than 10 mins i knocked up the following wcl application that does what you want using a command widget. even if you are not familiar with wcl the example is so simple it should be pretty obvious what is going on. the crucial thing is the use of the xawpositionsimplemenu and menupopup actions. ari.wcchildren: app *app.wccreate: command *app.wcpopups: menu *app.translations: #override \n\ <btn3down>: xawpositionsimplemenu(menu) menupopup(menu) *menu.wccreate: simplemenu *menu.wcchildren: one, two, three *one.wccreate: smebsb *two.wccreate: smebsb *three.wccreate: smebsb j.k.wight@newcastle.ac.uk department of computing science, university of newcastle, tel: +44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne, ne1 7ru, united kingdom. fax: +44 91 222 8232 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68119">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68119" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 there will always be a zillion lawyers who, if they get paid well enough, will sue your brains out. gosh! can't anyone send them off to another planet?! well maybe, it would be better to just send apple, microsoft and a few others (that way we would get rid of some terrible products as well :) | d91-jda@nada.kth.se | drag-n-drop-dead | johan danielsson | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68131">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68131" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 *but* your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone. i have a clone almost with no name generating 91k xstones on a 486/33mhz show me the realistic price tag... i can get 15" tektronix xp11 terminals for under $900, and the performance is over 80000 xstones..... excuse me, but with a 486/50 256k cache, s3 928 isa card, 8mb xs3 (x11r5) running 386bsd you can get 100k+ xstones at 1024x768 65mhz which i doubt nice, but way over $900.... my point is price/performance not just performance... | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68137">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68137" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 extract from the color readme file for anthony's icon library. for network discussion... color coordination... i tried to start a discussion in `comp.windows.x' at the start of the year about some sort of `standard color table' that icons should follow (say 16 to 32 colors including 5 colors for a small grey scale). but no one responded at all. the problem is that if the colors for icons are just used willy-nilly you will soon find that the workstations color table, devotes itself solely the window manager, icons and other `adminstrative tasks' instead of applications that actually require the colors for proper working. ``color needful applications'' such as : picture and graphic displayers, animation, real time video, raytracers, etc... . the following is a suggested color table for icons, and general use. icons, window managers, and general applications, should follow this table or something like it, unless the application is ``color needful''. * for each primary color (red,green,blue) three colors eg: values 0, 128 and 255. this results in 3 ^ 3 colors (27) representing most of the standard colors for use in icons. * two extra shades of grey eg: vales (black) 0, 64, 128, 196 and 255 (white,red,...) * 3 other colors -- probably of some primary color to provide shading a and 3-d look to buttons and titlebars in the window manager. this table represents 32 colors and represents a large range of posibilities for the above ``administrative services'' of the anthony thyssen - (sysprog @ griffith university) anthony@cit.gu.edu.au a gods idea of amusement is a snakes & ladders game, with greased rungs. - terry pratchett "wyrd sisters" 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68139">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68139" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 on the subject of ghostscript, it will also solve the earlier request of converting postscript to hpgl to filter into interleaf. david warren internet: warren@atmos.washington.edu (206) 543-0945 uucp: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!warren dept of atmospheric sciences, ak-40 university of washington decus e-pubs library committee representative sealug decus vice chair 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68159">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68159" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 e g l i n a f b hart tel no: 904 882 3154 dept: 646ccsg/scwa*sas to: internet addressee ( _smtp[xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu] ) greetings! we have several vxt 2000 windowing terminals and associated software on our network. we are able to open a lat terminal window to any of our workstation nodes but we are unable to get a lat x session to work. we have customized the terminal security to allow all lat connections. trying to invoke a lat x session from the vxt 2000 results in the following message being displayed in the terminal manager window message area: host does not support x sessions (the host is a vax4000 model 60 and does support x sessions) opening a lat terminal window and logging into the server node, setting the display variable as follows: $ set display/create/node=lat_###########/transport=lat and then trying to create a decterm on the vxt as follows: $ create/term=decterm/detach fails and gives the following error message: dectermport failed to find language, xopendisplay("") returned null %decw-f-cant-open-displ can't open display the vxt 2000 is using its system defaults (ie. default font(s), language, ...) except for the security options to allow all connections and options enabling lat protocol. we have vt1200 windowing terminals and the above things were enough to allow lat x sessions. vms version is 5.5-1 running decwindows/motif of vax4000 model 60s please help. dennis hart atlantic research corporation directorate of computer sciences eglin afb, fl 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68170">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68170" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm seeking a *simple* window manager (icccm compliant) with a minimal doc. i don't want ol*wm twm gwm *twm. whatever happened to uwm? is it still available in some form? it's been years since i used it or heard anyone talk about it. i'm 99&44/100% positive that uwm isn't icccm compliant. if you want it, the r4 sources are still available on export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in /pub/r4. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68174">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68174" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have a problem which many of you might have run into. we use lots of ascii terminals and use them to the max. meaning lots of attributes, line this means needing all attributes to work, including bold and line drawing. the only fonts which seem to meet these criteria are a pairs of fonts in which one is bold and the other normal, while both have linedraw, fixed spacing, and several sizes. the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like 9x15 and 9x15b under "misc". they work great, except i need a font one size larger, 10x20. now 10x20 works well, but there is no bold counterpart! you don't need a 'bold' counterpart. from `man xterm`: -fb font this option specifies a font to be used when dis- playing bold text. this font must be the same height and width as the normal font. if only one of the normal or bold fonts is specified, it will be used as the normal font and the bold font will be produced by overstriking this font. the default is to do overstriking of the normal font. i have tried that with one font, if your xterm terminfos/termcaps are set up to not remap bold (which they are be default) to reverse, then nothing happens when bold is displayed. it would appear (at least in x11r4) than you cannot display bold in an xterm without specifying two fonts; a normal and a bold. i wish someone would prove that incorrect. | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68177">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68177" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i'm quite familiar with a variety of window title *setting* methods. |> my question is... is there any way (via resources, etc) to stop an |> application's ability to re-name it's own name / iconname properties? sorry, that's a feature. the icccm specifies how the app should set its title, so the wm is obliged to do it. if this bothers you, complain to the app writer. |> ...who cares if it's not 'nice' to the application - |> i want control! ;-) write your own wm that doesn't support the icccm. or write an program that you give a window id and a title. the your program can set the windows title for the app and then if the app changes it, your program switches it back again. |> -mike |> mike hoswell - hoswell@ncar.ucar.edu | never stop! / toasted - bagels | |> climate and global dynamics | disclaimer: i represent myself only | |> ncar, po box 3000, boulder co, 80307 +----------------+--------------------+ |> ...so i've got that going for me --- which is nice. | think clearly. | carl schmidtmann faultline software group, inc (408) 736-9655 867 karo court cws@faultline.com ...!{apple|decwrl}!gigo!cws sunnyvale, ca 94086-8146 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68182">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68182" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am looking for gui builders/uims's which run in a vms/openvms environment. i am interested in both motif tools and gui-independent tools such as xvt. my client also requires that the tool has been in production for at least 6 months in the vms environment. note that i have the list of tools from the faq, but not the info on vms availability. mark d. collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice: (512) 522-3437 data systems department fax: (512) 522-5499 software engineering section 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68183">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68183" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am using xnlock as the screensaver for a pc-based x server. however, after an interval of no activity, my x session ends. this does not happen when i use xscreensaver. my screensave command is fired up from my .xsession like this: xautolock -time 1 -locker xnlock -corners ++++ -cornerdelay 1 & my hypothesis is that xdm (i use xdmcp to start my x session) detects a period of inactivity from the server, then terminates the session. however, for some reason, this does not happen with xscreensaver. is there a workaround? i'd prefer responses via e-mail. "economics is not for those who are atracted to real-world problems which have simple and clear solutions. for these individuals, i recommend astrology." -- hugo sonnenschein 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68184">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68184" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to get my program to monitor resize/position events, so that when the program exits, i can save the last known geometry in some sort of 'preferences' file. i am adding an event handler for structurenotify to the toplevelshell: xtaddeventhandler(toplevel,structurenotifymask,false,configurecb,mydata); this works fine, and my callback is called whenever the window is resized or repositioned using the window manager (mwm). however, when i'm just resizing the window, using any resize handle on the window manager resize decoration, the x and y are set to zero in the xevent passed to the event handler callback. i'm accessing the xconfigure structure, like the x11 manual says. (xev->xconfigure.x, xev->xconfigure.y). the width and height memebers are correct. when i reposition the window, using the window manager, the xevent's xconfigure structure contains all the correct x, y, width, height member settings. q1: anybody know why, when just resizing, the x and y are being set to zero? q2: any other way to handle detecting and saving geometry changes? i've tried using xtgetvalues() on the toplevel widget when exiting my application (before destroying any widgets) and all i get is garbage values for the x, y, width, height resources. bob ross (ross@li.loral.com) | "mr. plow, that's the name. that name loral instrumentation, san diego, ca | again is mr. plow" - homer simpson 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68185">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68185" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 has anyone built xkernel for 3/80's? it works great on our 3/50s, and i would just as soon kiss the entire sun 3 architeture goodbye (and reclaim a bunch of disk space). email me direct, i'll post a summary. * mickey boyd * * systems administrator * * florida state university mathematics department * * email: boyd@math.fsu.edu office: (904) 644-7167 pager: (904) 657-6425 * 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68186">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68186" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi! i'm looking for a tool to dump a x-window screen image? any one can help me ? see xwd, xpr. even better, grab xdump from ftp.cs.uwm.edu. it makes use of these programs as well, but has a much nicer interface (and can do more). you can dump to postscript, bitmaps, etc. * mickey boyd * * systems administrator * * florida state university mathematics department * * email: boyd@math.fsu.edu office: (904) 644-7167 pager: (904) 657-6425 * 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68188">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68188" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am writing a x-based dosemu which requires xkeyreleasedevent. i found the keycode of xkeyreleasedevent is wrong. if i run the program on a linux host(xfree1.2) with display set to the local linux and to the sun host (x11r5), the two keycodes from the two xservers are different. of course, the keycode of xkeypressedevent is o.k. can anybody verify this ? did i do anything wrong ? edward der-hua liu cs department national taiwan university, taiwan dhliu@solar.csie.ntu.edu.tw 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68192">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68192" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm wonderring if it is possible to replace a single module, as xkeybind.o in a shared library, as libx11.so in suns openwindows. i tried to rtfm, but i didn't get any wiser that way. also, can i do the same on an rs6000 machine running 3.2.2 (if it is possible at all). i know how to do it with real libraries (ar). i am trying to replace xlookupstring in the delivered libraries, with another that does a few special things. /per per andersson - ppan@celsiustech.se (perand@stacken.kth.se on free time) managing networks ( and occasionally suns) at, but not speaking for: celsiustech ab, j{rf{lla, sweden 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68193">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68193" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 as quoted from <1993may13.212321.2563@moepi.do.open.de> by bernward@moepi.do.open.de (bernward averwald): back in the days of x11.1 i did analyse the xterm code. the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character. i doesn't seem to be changed 'til now. but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar :-|. the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous, though (see also desqview/x, which does this in its dos windows). do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt? ++brandon 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68195">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68195" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 thanks to everyone who mailed help, unfortunately the end problem was a really stupid `oversight' on my behalf. the code was 100% perfect, but it might help to add control.c to my makefile....... anyway the mangled name was telling me it could'nt locate the control constructor... i just want to reaffirm what a valuable book this one is, i'm enjoying evry page :) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68196">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68196" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i'm posting this request again since the last one had no title. i'm looking for x server software on dos or windows. i've already seen desqview/x and xvision but would like to be aware of other solutions, namely public domain or shareware implementations. i'd also like to know, in the commercial case, about possible problems, incompatibilities, available window managers and libraries, etc. if you have any experiences in this area please let me know. c u! by(e) mario valente try linux. available on the internet. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68197">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68197" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 ow 3.0 is the same. but, the definition of broken is relative. pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files, in order to stop at page breaks. i don't consider that broken. i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn't dsc compliant is broken. well that may be true. however, the man page for pageview for ow 2.0 does not mention about dsc compliance. in any event, the point here is that if you try to display some ps files using pageview you will find out that it's not a practical tool. ...v....1....v....2....v....3....v....4....v....5....v....6....v....7.. gordon t. sasamori hc05 csic mcu design (email: gordons@ai.sps.mot.com, nippon motorola ltd. voice: 81(3)3280-8339, fax: 81(3)3440-0033) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68202">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68202" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets: callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window. i want to connect this to a widget. no problem so far. i could use a callback function or an action to do this, processing any events afterwards. but because the drawing takes some while, i want the application code sequence to be able to be interrupted by events. then i want to handle the events and resume with processing the application code at the point it was it seems to me that this isn't possible, but how can i give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed ? has anybody an idea? please answer via e-mail. thanks in advance. soenke voss faculty of economics soenke@wiwi12.uni-bielefeld.de university of bielefeld w-4800 bielefeld 1 the only difference between me and a madman is that i am not mad ! (salvador dali) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68207">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68207" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 when i changed from svr4 to svr4.2 on my intel box i discovered that some of my svr4 xclients such as xload, etc would no longer work. they bomb out with the message: error: can't open display unix:0.0 is this because they can't find the correct shared libraries, they need to be recompiled, or have i not used the correct options? both systems use x11r5. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68210">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68210" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi, is there anybody has some example programs about using the internationalization features in x11r5 ? such as a small x program just to show chinese texts in wondows, menu bar or icons... thanks in advance. michael c. hung 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68213">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68213" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 : it seems silly, but while i've located things like tgif that can edit : gif files, and various tools to convert to/from gif format, i haven't : been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a : gif file in it. i've looked thru various faq files, also to no avail. : is there one lurking about in some archive? nothing sophisticated; : just "show the pretty picture"? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68214">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68214" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am urgently looking for the following article, but i can't seem to find it anywhere here: "the multi-threaded x server" john allen smith the x resource issue 1, pp. 73-89, winter 1992 if anyone can tell me where to find it, it will be much appreciated. h.f. sadie departement of computer science university of stellenbosch south africa e-mail: sadie@itu.sun.ac.za 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68217">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68217" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 could someone repost the faqs for this group, please? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68219">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68219" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 excerpts from netnews.comp.windows.x: 15-may-93 re: colors and x windows (a.. john cwikla@morrison.wri (4620) the problem is that we need solutions for applications now. and although i would love to have most of the things mentioned here, somebody has to write what i'd like to see is this scenario: each widget, view, whatever, describes it's colors via a palette. palettes can be shared and they only contain descriptive information. they are not directly tied to the object that uses them. palettes are held in the server. a palette can accomadate, up to, the number of hardware color cells of color descriptors. when the input focus is in a particular widget, that widget has access to all of the colors that are described in its associated palette. all other widgets, transiently, get the closest approximation that can be generated by a union of the colors from the current palette and any free colors that are left over. a widget specifies a color for imaging by providing an index (pixel) into its associated palette. the bold part above is hard and would need to be done in the server. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68220">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68220" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am tunning into this newgroup after a long time. could somebody tell me what the slave mode in the xterm is? and what can it be used for? any info where i can get more info or examples. i want to use a bunch of xterms and send the input from one application to these xterms and get the output on the xterms. please email me any info. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68224">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68224" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets: callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window. i want to connect this to a widget. no problem so far. i could use a callback function or an action to do this, processing any events afterwards. but because the drawing takes some while, i want the application code to be able to be interrupted by events. then i want to handle the and resume with processing the application code at the point it was it seems to me that this isn't possible, but how can i give the user impression that his inputs are immediately processed ? use a workproc. see xtappaddworkproc(3xt). you should split your drawing routnie up into small chunks (this is the hard part). then, in the callback that starts the drawing, you call xtappaddworkproc() to call your workproc the first time. your workproc should be a function that returns a boolean... true when you are finished, and false when you want to keep processing. if you return false, the workproc is automatically re-installed. note that this method is better that using a time-out loop, since events get processed in a more precedence-oriented manner. if you are using the same ada bindings i am, however, you are hosed, and should look into xtappaddtimeout(3xt). joe hildebrand hildjj@fuentez.com software engineer fuentez systems concepts (703)273-1447 standard disclaimers apply 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68226">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68226" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i know nothing about sun's but replacing pieces of libraries, shared or not, is straight forward on rs/6000's (all releases). extract the appropriate pierce with ar; rebind the .o; and replace with ar. see info for details. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68228">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68228" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi there, do someone of you have a program for sending a key event to another window but it must appear in that window.... i have used xsendevent.tar package but it does not do that !!! for example, if i get a program executing: #!/bin/sh read something echo $something and if i send the key event "<keypress>a,<keyrelease>a" to that window then i will get: something=a thanks in advance. gabriel iban~ez c. gibanez@dcc.uchile.cl 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68229">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68229" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i've been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was |> wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition? the front says "conference |> from microsoft windows nt developers". what's the deal? i thought |> "x"hibition was for "x-windows"?? |> jesse w. asher yes, xhibition is for the x window system. the x window system conference remains the largest and most complete conference devoted to x. nineteen full and half day tutorials and thirty-six technical sessions over three days provide huge amounts of information for x application developers. add vendor exhibits and a product presentation track to provide information on what folks can purchase today, and you have a complete show focused on x11. speakers at xhibition 93 include: bob schiefler, lu abel, mark ackerman, paul asente, doug blewett, donna converse, jim fulton, oliver jones, keith packard, ralph swick, doug young, and many others. xhibition is growing (fortunately for us:-) and we have added some additional conferences. surveys that we have given have indicated additional topics of interest. these include: object oriented technologies such as the object management group's orb and corba; c++ as it applies to x; client server technologies such as dce; threads; databases- object oriented and relational; and (not surprisingly when you look at the audience) windows nt. with the bulk of the xhibition audience (and the unix community) developing applications for in-house or custom use, a new 32-bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated. with ms windows on so many desktops, and the price of computing power dropping, its successor needs to be evaluated. as corporations begin to look at nt, so must their developers and the mission of the xhibition technical conferences is to provide information to the application developer and to the technology planner. the nt conference at xhibition is designed to do just that. we worked with microsoft to provide the *only* conference this year specifically designed to show x and unix developers the capabilities of windows and nt. if you aren't sure that nt has what you need for your application development or systems deployment, this is the place to find out. ask the folks from microsoft, get them to show you what you need. conference attendees will receive nt software development kits- to bang on, evaluate, and generally to see for yourself. i hope this doesn't sound like an nt commercial (it should sound like an xhibition commercial:-). i just want to reiterate that the xhibition audience is growing and xhibition is growing along with it. the industry is a confusing place at the moment with unix, cose, nt, dce, corba, and all of the other acronyms sprouting up. xhibition can help sort out the confusion. -aub harden technical program manager harden@ics.com x h i b i t i o n the conference and trade ****** ***** show for corporate * * * software development * * 201 broadway *** ***** cambridge, ma 02139 windows on distributed computing june 7 - 11, san jose, ca xhibit@ics.com uunet!ics.com!xhibit voice: (617) 621-0060 fax: (617) 621-9555 presented by integrated computer solutions, inc. 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68230">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68230" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 back in the days of x11.1 i did analyse the xterm code. the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character. i doesn't seem to be changed 'til now. but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar :-|. the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous, though (see also desqview/x, which does this in its dos windows). do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt? most dos x servers are terribly slow to use in my experience - and no, i guess performance would be pretty bad. i believe the discussion is valid for an x server on a decent workstation. .-------------------------[ the eno ]-------------------------------------. | "the trouble with new age | janet : da188@uk.ac.city | | music is that there's no | eno@uk.ac.city.cs | | evil in it.." - brian eno | us : da188%city.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68231">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68231" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 when attempting to connect to an sgi indigo from a pc clone using a commercial x windows emulation package, the x package hangs in a pre-login x screen mode. the login box won't display. using the package in 'telnet' mode, i can logon to the sgi, and run any none graphic type things. on the pc i get an error: "read error 0 on socket 1" (raw socket error) on the sgi, in xdm-errors: i get a termination error when i kill the stalled screen on the pc on the sgi, in syslog: <date><time><sgi> xdm[#]:hung in xopendisplay(<remote>:0, aborting " " :server open failed for <remote>:0, giving up i have all access control disabled (i believe, syslog message confirms this when i login on the sgi). i believe i have the sgi set up properly as described in the x adm. book by o'rielly.... the x emul package tech support hasn't been able to solve the problem. so what i'm looking for is some suggestions on where to look for problems, and possible tests to run to narrow down the questions. webster@ucssun1.sdsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68232">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68232" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i've been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was |> wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition? the front says "conference |> from microsoft windows nt developers". what's the deal? i thought |> "x"hibition was for "x-windows"?? |> jesse w. asher i was wondering this myself. and (not surprisingly when you look at the audience) windows nt. with the bulk of the xhibition audience (and the unix community) developing applications for in-house or custom use, a new 32-bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated. with ms windows on so many desktops, and the price of computing power dropping, its successor needs to be evaluated. as corporations begin to look at nt, so must their developers and what you need. conference attendees will receive nt software development kits- to bang on, evaluate, and generally to see for yourself. i hope this doesn't sound like an nt commercial (it should sound like an xhibition commercial:-). unfortunately it does. i don't agree with the logic of nt at an x windows conference. perhaps some good will come of it, but the two are so dissimilar and the nt marketing stuff is so large in the xhibition adds that i was coming to a similar conclusion as jesse... | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68236">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68236" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we have suns running sunos 4.1.3 and openwindows 3.0 (x11r4). we have used xvision on a pc, setup to broadcast query to the unix xdm servers and allow a user to choose a unix client in which to login: xdm will then manage that display. i would like to do the same thing with xfree86 running under linux, but i don't know how. i don't want to hardwire the unix xdm to manage the pc displays as the pc's are not always running linux (let alone xfree86). i would like the same setup as provided by xvision. can anybody help? dr. roberto togneri phone: +61-9-380-2535 _--_|\ centre for intelligent information processing systems / \ dept. of electrical & electronic engineering *_.--._/ the university of western australia fax: +61-9-380-1101 v nedlands wa 6009 australia email: robert@swanee.ee.uwa.edu.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68237">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68237" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i can also live with a utility that converts postscript to plain text, perferably retaining page counts so that i know how many pages the original document contains. well, i know of one hack to sort of do this conversion. first get ghostscript and check out the gs_2asc.ps file that comes with it. it prints out some information about where each text string goes on the page, and maintains page counts. i've written a little c program to massage the output of gs -dnodisplay gs_2asc.ps somewhat, so that you can get all the ascii strings in the document. no guarantees that it won't break up words/sentences, though - i've used it with varying degrees of success. anyways, try this out, it may do what you want. * massager: a filter for use with gs; does crude postscript->ascii conversion * usage: * cat file.ps | gs -dnodisplay gs_2asc.ps - | massager * i print a <ctrl-l> after each new page. * put the following source into massager.c and compile it: #include <stdio.h> #include <string.h> main() char line[1000], *p; while (fgets(line, sizeof(line), stdin) != null) if (line[0] == 'p') printf("\f\n"); else if (line[0] == 's' && line[1] == ' ') { if ((p = strrchr(line, ')')) == null) continue; *p = '\0'; if ((p = strchr(line, '(')) == null) continue; for (p++; *p; p++) if (*p != '\\' || (p[1] != ')' && p[1] != '(')) putchar(*p); putchar('\n'); return(0); david wagner dawagner@princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68241">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68241" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 how are you, everybody? i installed x11r5 on our ibm rs6000 workstation. os version is aix 3.2.3. there was no problem in installation. but there was a problem in invoking 'xinit'. when i invoke 'xinit', there is a error message as follows: giving up. xinit: unable to connect to x server xinit: no such process (errno 3): server error. i'm a navice. so i don't know the reason why i get this message. please help me. i am waiting for your help. thanks for reading this mail. -park jang ho (jhpark@kdb.snu.ac.kr) 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68243">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68243" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i am wondering how to change the english fonts in an existed api to some multi-bytes fonts ? (such as chinese, japanese...) someone told me x11r5 supports some internationalization features, but i cannot find any examples for my need. is there anybody has done some similar jobs ? by the way, all the english fonts should be replace by chinese or japanese fonts, that means in windows, menubar, button.... that will be great if someone can share us what you have done. thanks in advance. m.c. hung 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68244">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68244" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 yes we have the same problem with xinit. the problems seems to come from the fact that the xopendisplay(":0") fails. if we try (on our machine named godzilla) setenv display godzilla:0.0 xibm& it works fine, but the following will not work setenv display unix:0.0 xibm& did we set a configuration option incorrectly? thank you for any assistance you can offer. herb hasler --- herb@iiasa.ac.at international institute for applied systems anaylsis (iiasa) a-2361 laxemburg, austria --- +43 2236 715 21 ext 548 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68245">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68245" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i need to know where i can get a faq on xwindows for ms-dos machines. the usual faq just gave me a name of a file called xservers-nonunix.txt.z. which i cannot find anywhere. i need to do x-windows programming on a msdos pc. does anyone know how to go about doing it? 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68249">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68249" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i've run into a bit of a snag while trying to get mac x up and running and would appreciate stuff deleted are not on my local net here, but the above problem holds true for non-local suns as well. i tried to send this as private mail, but mail to benj@ossa.hq.nasa.gov was rejected, so here it is: same here here is an extract from the readme file that comes with macx: users of remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear to do nothing and there is no output from the sun machine. this is due to a feature of the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known to the sun|s network address (/etc/hosts or nis hosts) database. to successfully use remote commands with a sunos-based machine, there must be an entry in the network address database for the macintosh which is running macx. i received similar information/advice about what appears to be the same problem benjamin has (and i still have). nis has all the information about the macs (i even put explicit entries in /etc/hosts to no avail). monitoring with 'snoop' on my classic, the initial rexec packet is sent to the the sun, which sends something to the correct mac, but nothing appears at the mac. 'rexecd' is number one suspect, but it's more suble than the readme suggests and i haven't yet looked into it further. stan kerr computing & communications services office, u of illinois/urbana phone: 217-333-5217 email: stankerr@uiuc.edu callum.downie@brunel.ac.uk faculty of technology, brunel university, uxbridge, ub8 3ph, uk +44 895 274000 x2730 4.003 die meisten saetze und fragen, welche ueber philosophische dinge geschrieben worden sind, sind nicht falsch, sondern unsinnig. 7 wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68251">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68251" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi xperts! how can i move the cursor with the keyboard (i.e. cursor keys), if no mouse is available? any hints welcome. rainer hochreiter | telephone: +43 (1) 89100 / 3961 elin-energieanwendung gesmbh | telefax : +43 (1) 89100 / 3387 penzingerstr. 76 | a-1141 wien, austria/europe | e-mail : rainer@elin.co.at 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68252">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68252" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> i am looking for a graphing program that will fit my data to a straight |> line. any program that estimates a closest fit curve or gives any |> statistics would be helpful. many spreadsheets do regression analysis. the topic is also well covered in most undergraduate statistic books. cubic splines are usually well covered in any undergraduate computer science numerical analysis text. i am sure ge/mm has a well stocked library. i have never used mathematica, but i would be surprised if it could not do a edmond l. meinfelder programmer, virtual guy, "my aardvark is bigger." -anon. hack for hire. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68253">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68253" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 as quoted from <1993may13.212321.2563@moepi.do.open.de> by bernward@moepi.do.open.de (bernward averwald): back in the days of x11.1 i did analyse the xterm code. the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character. i doesn't seem to be changed 'til now. but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar :-|. the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous, though (see also desqview/x, which does this in its dos windows). do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt? so what? i'm running emu on a 25 mhz 68020 box. i cannot make out any difference in performance whether the cursor is set to blinking or not (if you think about it a bit, a cycle of 400 ms is a hell a lot of time for even the slowest pc). since you would of course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus, this application is active anyway. to repeat it, a blinking text cursor costs almost nothing in performance, it just needs some thought when designing the xterm software. you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop! what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine? that is when the load problems occur. if you had a machine with 20 xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm's, this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste. i'm not picking on you, just people keep forgetting that there is a lot of life out there besides distributed or singleuser "workstations"! | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68256">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68256" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 are there any graphics texts with examples/demos/projects directly in the last time i taught the course, i used a popular graphics text that uses its own graphics package, with implementations available for x/mac/pc. the problem was that after the course the students were good at programming in the artificial package, but frustrated that they couldn't really use their skill for other work. ken mandelberg | km@mathcs.emory.edu preferred emory university | {rutgers,gatech}!emory!km uucp dept of math and cs | km@emory.bitnet non-domain bitnet atlanta, ga 30322 | phone: voice (404) 727-7963, fax 727-5611 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68258">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68258" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we tried to compile an old x11r4/motif program with x115 and a newer version of motif. but we newer succeed. any ideas? cc -o xtrack.new main.o libxtrack.a ../xutils/libxutils.a ../pmshort/libpmshort.a ../matrix/libmatrix.a otte/lib_otte.a verb/lib_verb.a /tools/newmotif/lib/libmrm.a /tools/newmotif/lib/libxm.a -l/tools/x11r5/lib -lxaw -lxmu -lxt -lx11 -ll -lm -lxext cxm.a -lxaw -lxmu -lxt -lx11 -ll -lm -lxext -l/usr/cc/sun4/ -lc ld: /tools/x11r5/lib/libxaw.sa.5.0(sharedlib.o): _vendorshellwidgetclass: multiply defined *** error code 2 make: fatal error: command failed for target `xtrack' thanks fvd. fvd, markus weber fvd@ma1ws1.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de sometimes there's nothing to feel. 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68260">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68260" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 we have a problem with 'makedepend': it doesn't know how to correctly process #if clause in c preprocessor statements. it evaluates everything to true no matter what the conditionals are. has anybody come up with some solution/fix to 'makdepend' other than writeyourownparser... and willing to share it with us? rewrite 'makedepend' to use 'cc -m' or 'gcc -m' or 'gcc -mm' (which is the one i prefer, since system headers don't change that often) for generating the actual dependencies. you'll still need to write the parts that edit the actual makefile. i think there's a program in the berkeley distributions called mkdep that will do essentially this. vivek khera, gradual student/systems guy department of computer science internet: khera@cs.duke.edu box 90129 (mime mail accepted) durham, nc 27708-0129 (919)660-6528 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68272">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68272" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 |> we have a problem with 'makedepend': it doesn't know how to correctly process i'm most of the way through adding a grammar for parsing the #if expressions. i don't know when i'll be able to get back to it; you're welcome to what i have so far. i haven't looked at other versions of makedepend, which may solve the problem more elegantly. david b. lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual, inc. day: dbl@visual.com evening: david%craft@uunet.uu.net 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68277">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68277" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 i have an application that wants to walk the server window hierarchy, looking for a window with a specific property. i think what happens is that xquerytree gives me an array of n children, but by the time i get to the nth child window, it has been destroyed. then i get a badwindow error, and my application exits. how can i make this robust? i've thought of the following: 2. set up an x error handler that longjmps back to where i made the offending call. is this safe? do i have to longjmp, or can i just return? badwindow is an x protocol error. if you write a custom error handler which does not do "exit(1);" the error handler will return and let your program carry on. so, using a xseterrorhandler is the way to go, but never mind the longjmp. 3. register for destroynotify on all the windows returned from xquerytree. ... too hard.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68299">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68299" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 hi there, i'm looking for tools that can make x programming easy. i would like to have a tool that will enable to create x motif gui interactivly. currently i'm working on a sgi with forms. a package that enables to create gui with no coding at all (but the callbacks). any help will be appreciated. thanks gabi. / .----/ \----. gabi zodik \ / \ / ee room 608 ph. 04-29-4723 \ / .--\ (o)(o) /__. technion, haifa, israel \ | \ () / interest: mapping problem | \ > (c_) < e-mail gabi@techunix.technion.ac.il / \ /___\____/___\ / \________________________________________________/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68302">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68302" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
<context>
 <it seems silly, but while i've located things like tgif that can edit <gif files, and various tools to convert to/from gif format, i haven't <been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a <gif file in it. i've looked thru various faq files, also to no avail. <is there one lurking about in some archive? nothing sophisticated; <just "show the pretty picture"? <alternatively, if i could locate the specs for gif, i don't suppose it <would be too hard to write it myself, but i have no idea where to even <start looking for the spec. (well, actually, i do have an idea - this <newsgroup. ;-) get, xv, version 3.0. it reads/displays/manipulates many different formats. harvard\ ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!ftms!brown or uu2.psi.com!ftms!brown rutgers/ internet: brown@wi.extrel.com or ftms!brown%astroatc.uucp@cs.wisc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="comp.windows.x68303">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68303" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 |> > ld: unidentified external symbol |> > _get_wmshellwidgetclass |> > _get_applicationshellwidgetclass |> > i use -lxaw -lxmu -lxext -lx11 -lxt not in this order but in a proper order |> > i am wondering if there has to be some changes in my link libraries or should |> > i include some more libraries. |> > any help in this matter will be very useful and highly appreciated |> we get this too. if you put -bstatic into your options it goes away. |> things seem to run ok without it...must not be called very often. from the faq: in sunos 4.1.2 sun fixed a shared-library bug in ld which conflicts with the way x builds the shared xmu library, causing these symbols, notably, to be undefined when building some x11 clients: compiling "-bstatic -lxmu -bdynamic" appears to work. to solve the problem if you are using openwindows 3.0 (x11r4-based xt), please contact your local sun office and request the following patches: patch i.d. description 100512-02 4.1.x openwindows 3.0 libxt jumbo patch 100573-03 4.1.x openwindows 3.0 undefined symbols when using shared libxmu [greg earle, earle@sun.com; 7/92] a source patch for use with the mit x11r4 libraries was developed by conrad kimball (cek@sdc.boeing.com); it retrofits into r4 some fixes made in r5 to get around this problem. the patch is on export in [1/93] contrib/x11r4_sunos4.1.2_patch_version3.z conrad kimball | client server tech services, boeing computer services cek@sdc.cs.boeing.com | p.o. box 24346, ms 7a-35 (206) 865-6410 | seattle, wa 98124-0346 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68305">
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 i am running x11r4 on an ibm rs/6000 (aix 3.2) and x11r5 on a sun4 (sunos 4.1). since i run x on both colour and black&white displays, i need different values for the same resource, so i want to use #ifdef color in my application defaults files. however, cpp is only invoked by xrdb, and not when the resources are loaded on demand. is there a proper solution to this? so far, the only proper solution i've come to think of, is to create 2 different files in my ~/app-defaults/, say xterm and xterm-color, and set my xfilesearchpath to either $home/%t/%n or $home/%t/%n-color. but that does not always seem to work (e.g. executing a remote shell command without reading the .cshrc does not set xfilesearchpath). furthermore, i thought of using #include "xterm" in xterm-color. however, for resources in xterm that i want to override in xterm-color, things are different on both machines. on a sun, the first found resource is used (i.e. the one from xterm, the b&w one), while on an rs/6000, the last found value is used (i.e. the one from xterm-color). what can i do about it? i have one last question: for the specification of xfilesearchpath, i can use %t, %n, %c and %s. %t stands for app-defaults, %n for the resource class, but what do %c and %s stand for? thanks in advance for replying, x drs. marcel wijkstra (aio visualization) wijkstra@fwi.uva.nl |x| faculty of mathematics and computer science ph: +31 20 525 7522 x university of amsterdam the netherlands fx: +31 20 525 7490 =========== life stinks. fortunately, i've got a cold.================== 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68307">
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 hi out there! every command-line-shell-favourating user: close your ears, ehm, eyes... i'm looking for a x file-manager which can be driven under twm. somebody told me last night, there is one under openwindows (and there certainly is one under ms-windows :-#). but i'd like an x-one, you know, with icon's, click-and-drag, directory-structures shown in a graphic-layout, a paper-basket etc. ... anybody got an idea? please reply. _/ _/ _/_/_/ thso - thorsten sommer, better known as: _/ _/ _/ chiquita (denn nur chiquita ist banane!) _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ e-mail: sommer@ips.cs.tu-bs.de _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ transform ... and roll out! (bigtruck - transformers) 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68308">
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 could someone explain to me what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion, xpolygonregion, xpointinregion do, or to suggest a ftp site where i can find programs using these functions. ps: the man pages does not explain much ...... thank you, leonidas nikidis : ln@doc.ic.ac.uk imperial college, london,uk dept. of computing 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68309">
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 mark> *we* are the ones in control of what we use. it is those who mark> follow like blind sheep which cause the markets to skew. i'm sure mark> there will be enough "paid market hipe nt conferences" without it mark> needing to be in what was once a conference for open windowing mark> enviroments. i know that if i were planning to go i would cancel. mark> not because i have my eyes closed, but because nt does not belong mark> at such a conference. i would, however, like to go to a closed mark> environment nt conference to see the product because i am curious. mark> i doubt, however, based on the objective opinions of those i trust, mark> that i would be impressed. -- why do many (?) people believe that xhibition '93 is one of the "paid market hype nt conferences" (as you put it)? i for one am going, because i, too, am curious about the technology. i think this is a great chance to learn about nt, mainly because: - it will be presented in x's "home turf". i believe that the attendees will mostly have x backgrounds (biases? :-); thus, i expect that the nt presentations will face a tough audience. - i can be there in person to judge for myself whether or not nt is what it is hyped to be. this is as closely as i can get to in evaluating the nt technology without actually using it myself, which i don't have the time to do. - if nt turns out to be a vapor technology and i get bored, there will be many other interesting tutorials/presentations that i won't have to waste my time ... in california?!? :-) just my thoughts... ik su yoo rrc-4f728, x5764 ik@leis.bellcore.com 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68310">
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 x-disclaimer: all views are my own unless expicitly stated otherwise. i'm getting lots of files in /usr/lib/x11/xdm of the form abert:0-a00138 i'm running xdm. anybody know what these are and, better yet, how to move them (i.e., what resource can i change to make them appear somewhere else)? that are the authorisation files for the server. depending on what type of key your x supports they contain magic cookies, des based authentication or sun des authentication. the place is defined with the displaymanager.authdir other things like the file name can be changed as well see xdm manual pages. #peter brouwer, | digital equipment enterprise , # #net : pb@idca.tds.philips.nl | integration industry standard systems, # #phone:ext [+31] [-0]55 434218,| dept systems enginering, bld v1/b7 # #fax :ext [+31] [-0]55 432103 | p.o.box 245,7300ae apeldoorn,the netherlands# 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68315">
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 you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop! what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine? that is when the load problems occur. if you had a machine with 20 xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm's, this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste. ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors. my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second. this uses under 1k bytes/second, or about .1% of the bandwidth of ethernet. a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem, but a couple dozen should be fine. granted it's nothing to loose sleep over, but this is ethernet's tragic flaw: the more activity (especially lots of tiny activity), the more collisions happen and the performance gets exponentially worse... i am just now opposing any kind of waste of bandwidth under ethernet. although in a polling system it would not be so bad. | mark a. davis | lake taylor hospital | norfolk, va (804)-461-5001x431 | | sys.administrator| computer services | mark@taylor / mark@taylor.uucp | 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68318">
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 you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop! what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine? that is when the load problems occur. if you had a machine with 20 xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm's, this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste. ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors. my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second. this uses under 1k bytes/second, or about .1% of the bandwidth of ethernet. a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem, but a couple dozen should be fine. bandwidth is unlikely to be the problem, except over a wet string network. one of major flaws of x is the horrendous number of transactions (and hence process switches) that it forces upon a host. actual measurements (hourly average) are 5 per second per logged in user, which can lead to 20-50 or more process switches (depending on whether each event is filtered by the window manager as well as the applications and how many processes are needed for each character.) while a blinking cursor needs only the application and the networking process, and does not add any transactions, it will add something like 10 process switches per second per user. this is a significant increase in overhead, especially as the application may have quite a large working set. if you want a rapidly blinking cursor, there could be as many as 50. if you want to go there, i wouldn't start from here! nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory, new museums site, pembroke street, cambridge cb2 3qg, england. email: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk tel.: +44 223 334761 fax: +44 223 334679 
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 i've tried to get rid off xdm's ugly login window by giving it a 'cool' backgroundpixmap ressource. as login is derived from core, this should be possible. anyway, setting xlogin*backgroundpixmap:/a/b/c.xpm did not produce any message of the form 'cannot convert string to pixmap' and explicitely registering such converter lead to nothing, too. any way to do it ? +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ | o | \\\- brain inside -/// | o | | o | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | o | | o | andre' beck (abpsoft) mehl: andre_beck@irs.inf.tu-dresden.de | o | +-o-+--------------------------------------------------------------+-o-+ 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68323">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68323" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 bristol technology announces the availability of its hyperhelp(tm) and xprinter(tm) demo for downloading. this demo showcases the two products in the form of a diagram editor called de. download the demo and see some of these exciting features for yourself: o complete on-line context sensitive help system. o printing support for pcl5 and postscript. o rotated text support! o source code for the demo is provided. the demo is available via anonymous ftp from ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9). there are two versions of the demo located in the vendor/bristol directory: sun - sun4.demo.tar.z (sunos 4.x) hp - hp700.tar.z (hp-ux 8 & 9) if you have any questions about the demo, send an e-mail to: support@bristol.com. if you want another version of the demo (rs6000,etc...) please send an e-mail to: info@bristol.com. remember to use binary mode! what are hyperhelp and xprinter? read on...... bristol technology is proud to announce version 3.0 of its popular hyperhelp product and version 2.0 of xprinter. hyperhelp 3.0 hyperhelp is the de-facto standard for on-line context sensitive help in the unix marketplace. through a one line function call, application developers can access the full features of hyperhelp and cut down drastically on their development time. hyperhelp can use the same rtf, project, and bitmap files as the ms windows help facility. this allows a documentation department to maintain a single set of help documents portable between ms windows, motif and open look. hyperhelp can also be authored in framemaker. and with hyperhelp 3.0 bristol introduces its sgml compiler! new features in hyperhelp 3.0 include secondary windows,a character based viewer, segmented bitmaps, sgml support, and an improved history xprinter 2.0 xprinter 2.0 allows developers to add sophisticated printer support to their existing/new x based applications very easily. xprinter uses the xlib api for both the display and printer. this lets you use the exact same code for drawing and printing. take a look at the source code for our demo and see xprinter in action. if you are interested in adding postscript and pcl5 support to your application, xprinter is the tool for you! earlier this year bristola dn usl signed an agreement that resulted in xprinter becoming the standard printing technology for unix svr4.2. feel free to run the demo and let us know what you think about hyperhelp and xprinter. if you have any questions or comments, send them to us at: info@bristol.com or call us at (203) 438-6969. happy demoing, the staff at bristol technology 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68326">
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 any tcpview-for-sun users out there? i pulled down the pre-compiled executables made for sun for tcpview, but i'm getting a whole slew of the following types of error messages when i try to start it up: warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfactivate warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfactivate:managerparentactivate()' warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfcancel warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfcancel:managerparentcancel()' warning: translation table syntax error: unknown keysym name: osfselect warning: ... found while parsing '<key>osfselect:managergadgetselect()' but i *know* i have those in my keysym: egrep "osfactivate|osfcancel|osfselect" $openwinhome/lib/xkeysymdb yields: osfactivate :1004ff44 osfselect :1004ff60 osfcancel :1004ff69 osfselectall :1004ff71 and, if i take *out* the osf lines from said xkeysymdb, my copy of wscrawl (another motif-compiled-for-sun program) gives the same type of complaints as listed above. any tips? i'm mystified. kevin weinrich computer sciences corp. kbw@helios.ath.epa.gov 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68327">
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 i was wondering if anyone knew of an interface to od ( octal dump ), i assume it would be called xod. actually, any viewer for a core file will do. i looked at export ( @ mit ) in the index of /contrib, but didn't find anything i hate bama & winter main@superman.msfc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="comp.windows.x68332">
<answer instance="comp.windows.x68332" senseid="comp.windows.x"/>
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 hi, all: i am studying the book --> "unix desktop guide to open look". there is an example --> winprop.c that demonstrate how to program wm_protocols property in chapter 8. it can run, but only show the static text messages, no notice pop_up. what is the problem? thanks in advance for help!!1 iop /* file: winprop.c * shows how to set properties on a window. #include <x11/xatom.h> /* for definition of xa_atom */ #include <x11/intrinsic.h> #include <x11/stringdefs.h> #include <xol/openlook.h> #include <xol/statictext.h> #include <xol/oblongbutt.h> #include <xol/notice.h> /* this file defines the atoms with _ol_ prefix */ /* id of the top-level and noticeshell widget */ static widget top_level, notice_shell; static widget make_notice(); static char message[] = "clients use properties to communicate \ with the window manager. this example illustrates how an open \ look application requests notification from the window manager \ when certain events occur. the communication is in the form of \ a clientmessage event that the application processes in an \ event-handler."; /* atoms used for inter-client communication */ atom atom_wm_protocols, atom_wm_delete_window, atom_wm_save_yourself; static void handle_wm_messages(); static void save_and_exit(); static void save_yourself(); static void pop_notice(); static void do_exit(); /* string to hold comand line (for use in responding to * the wm_save_yourself protocol message. char saved_cmdline[128]; void main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; widget w; int i; /* save the command-line for use in responding to the * wm_save_yourself protocol message. sprintf(saved_cmdline, "%s ", argv[0]); if(argc > 1) for(i = 1; i < argc; i++) strcat(saved_cmdline, argv[i]); strcat(saved_cmdline, " "); /* create and initialize the top-level widget */ top_level = olinitialize(argv[0], "ol_main", null, 0, &argc, argv); /* create a statictext widget */ w = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("stext", statictextwidgetclass, top_level, xtnstring, message, xtnwidth, 200, null); /* create a noticeshell widget for later use */ make_notice(top_level); /* intern the atoms */ atom_wm_protocols = xinternatom(xtdisplay(w), "wm_protocols", false); atom_wm_delete_window = xinternatom(xtdisplay(w), "wm_delete_window", false); atom_wm_save_yourself = xinternatom(xtdisplay(w), "wm_save_yourself", false); /* add an event-handler to process clientmessage events sent * by the window manager xtaddeventhandler(top_level, noeventmask, true, handle_wm_messages, null); /* realize the widgets and start processing events */ xtrealizewidget(top_level); /* append the properties wm_delete_window and wm_save_yourself * to the definition of the wm_protocols property. this step * requires the window id of the top-level widget. the window * id is valid only after the widget is realized. xchangeproperty(xtdisplay(top_level), xtwindow(top_level), atom_wm_protocols, xa_atom, 32, &atom_wm_delete_window, 1); xchangeproperty(xtdisplay(top_level), xtwindow(top_level), atom_wm_protocols, xa_atom, 32, &atom_wm_save_yourself, 1); xtmainloop(); static void handle_wm_messages(w, client_data, p_event) widget w; xtpointer client_data; xevent *p_event; if(p_event->type == clientmessage && p_event->xclient.message_type == atom_wm_protocols) if(p_event->xclient.data.l[0] == atom_wm_delete_window) save_and_exit(); if(p_event->xclient.data.l[0] == atom_wm_save_yourself) save_yourself(); static void save_and_exit() /* display a notice giving the user a chance to respond */ pop_notice(top_level, notice_shell); static void save_yourself() /* set the wm_command property to the saved command-line. */ xchangeproperty(xtdisplay(top_level), xtwindow(top_level), xa_wm_command, xa_string, 8, propmodereplace, saved_cmdline, strlen(saved_cmdline) + 1); static widget make_notice(parent) widget parent; widget w, n_text, n_control, n_exit, n_cancel; /* create a button and provide a callback to pop up a notice */ w = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("quitbutton", oblongbuttonwidgetclass, parent, xtnlabel, "exit...", null); xtaddcallback(w, xtnselect, pop_notice, null); /* create the noticeshell widget. note that you have to use * xtvacreatepopupshell instead of the usual * xtvacreatemanagedwidget. notice_shell = xtvacreatepopupshell("quitnotice", noticeshellwidgetclass, w, null); /* get the id of the text and control area widgets of the * noticeshell. xtvagetvalues(notice_shell, xtntextarea, &n_text, xtncontrolarea, &n_control, null); /* place a message in the text area of the noticeshell */ xtvasetvalues(n_text, xtnstring, "please confirm exit from program.", null); /* add buttons to the control area of the noticeshell. * each button has an appropriate callback. n_exit = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("noticeexit", oblongbuttonwidgetclass, n_control, xtnlabel, "exit", null); xtaddcallback(n_exit, xtnselect, do_exit, null); n_cancel = xtvacreatemanagedwidget("noticecancel", oblongbuttonwidgetclass, n_control, xtnlabel, "cancel", xtndefault, true, null); return w; static void pop_notice(w_emanate, w_notice) widget w_emanate, w_notice; xtvasetvalues(w_notice, xtnemanatewidget, w_emanate, null); /* pop up the noticeshell widget. the noticeshell widget makes * sure that the aplication waits until the user selects from * one of the buttons in the noticeshell's control area. xtpopup(w_notice, xtgrabexclusive); static void do_exit(w, call_data, client_data) widget w; xtpointer call_data, client_data; xclosedisplay(xtdisplay(w)); exit(0); 
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 <due it seems to sun's crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes, <most standard (gnu and other) software won't compile out of the box (well, tar <file). <right now i'm trying to make ghostview. it complains it can't find x11/xaw/... <so i just linked (ln -s) the files from /usr/openwin/share/include/x11 and <now the ghoddam thing _still_ complains it can't find them. <i still haven't been able to compile xdvi, not no way. <has anyone _ever_ managed to get _anything_ normal to compile on a sun <(sunos 4.1.3 and openwindows 3)? what's the trick i'm missing? i've even <tried hard copying all the relevant files into the "right" places and <every time, there's some bit missing or it refuses to find it. sounds like you didn't load the support for those libraries when ow3.0 was loaded. the xaw support was missing from ow2.0 but added in 3.0. harvard\ ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!ftms!brown or uu2.psi.com!ftms!brown rutgers/ internet: brown@wi.extrel.com or ftms!brown%astroatc.uucp@cs.wisc.edu or the library might be there but not pointed to by ld_library_path. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74150">
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 boat for sale 1989 23' imperial fisherman featuring walkaround cuddy cabin, 305 v8 with volvo duo prop outdrive /\/\/\/ am-fm cassette stereo, vhf radio, 4x6 hummingbird fishfinder, all safty equipment, covers, and much more. 18000 lb. capacity includes storage trailer hardly used: less than 100 hrs asking: $15,000 or best offer. for further information contact gerald at 1-(419)-756-2950 mansfield, oh 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74721">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74721" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 complete standalone system (no computer required) for burning sound files into eproms - consists of : apollo eprom programmer (designed specifically for this job - wont do anything else) logical devices eprom eraser (to wipe the mistakes) brand new - $230 + freight 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74725">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74725" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale: orchid fareheit 1280 24bit color card -1 meg -almost new $200 or best offer this is a post for a friend call him (thuan pho) at 314-368-3624 t.j. houchin 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74728">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74728" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 residential lot for sale i have a nice residential lot available. it is approx- imately 1/2 acre in size. it is located in the development called belvedere plantation in pender county, eastern north carolina, north of wilmington. the lot is near the intra- coastal waterway. golf and tennis are located on the development property. belvedere plantation also has a mar- ina facility on the icw. this lot is nearby to all of the facilities mentioned. i own the lot outright but it does not look like i will get back to the area anytime soon. i would like to sell it for that reason. make an offer. if interested please send e-mail. gt0463b@prism.gatech.edu. - mike smith michael davis smith georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0463b internet: gt0463b@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74729">
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 lots of misc and radio related items for sale! still trying to lighten my load for moving! motorola vhf pager, digital, no voice or readout $15 2 capacitor checkers hp 200cd audio oscillator 5 hz to 600 khz. 1200 feet + brand new 1/2" hardline for tv with new connectors, this is in 5 pieces lots of gain mobile antennas for vhf and uhf uhf *amp*, input on 75 mhz in milliwatts and output on 450 mhz, 30 watts out. with service manual, this came out of a motorola mobilephone. make reasonable offer. looking for $40 + shipping or trade for? rca tac 300 uhf dash mount 2channel w/service manual, great condition, currently on gmrs frequency 462.725 repeater and simplex with pl of 151.4 hz $100 nobratron qr 75-2 power supply by sorensen, w/service manual, this is a 2 amp variable power supply, i have used it at 80 vdc. weight is 45lbs $45. motorola tone remote model #1926a, works great, with monitor button, $75 this unit is used to remote a base station with only two wires. also have tone remote board from mitrek super consolette, make offer, could be used with above remote! model #trn-6744a w/schmetics both for $100. motorola handhelds, mh-10 (4) w/charger, speaker mic, leather case, currently on 34.830, w/dpl dpl decks from motorola moxy radios very reasonable esp. if you take all, anyone offer $10 each for all or trade for? pl reeds, i have some (30 or so i think) also dpl code plugs e-mail if you need some or i will sell all transmit tubes for ge radios, new in box. 5 db gain uhf mobile antennas by motorola, used, sold new for $90, make reasonable offer. sell 3 for $45 + shipping motorcycle control head and cable with frequency selector and speaker all in one, 4 channel, i believe this came from a micom. asking $20 + shipping channel elements for motorola micor, mitrek, motrac 3 sets of vhf micor, uhf micor, low band motrac, more mobile microphones for ge, motorola, and rca reasonable offer. motorola dc remote adaptor model #tln-1127apr $75 i still have a few business band service manuals esp. ge and motorola, e-mail for details. phone restrict toll boxes (2) use quarters dtmf mobile mic ge master pro uhf mobile, not working, with accessories, this is a trunk mount radio. $20 + shipping 6' ge base cabinet w/19" rack duplexer cabinet from vhf duplexers 19" rack base cabinet, johnson hd satellite dish jack or arm 2 spools multi-conductor wire, w/shield, thickness is approx 1/2" ge master pro mobile control heads and cables eagle model #2 level sensor, tells how full a container is the above prices do not include shipping! some of the above items are pickup only because of size or weight, locations is eastern ohio. if interested e-mail me or you can call jim sims sr. n4jdp (614) 439-2177 before 9 pm eastern re_sims@vax.cns.muskingum.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74730">
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 i have one round-trip ticket good for travel between usa or canada and europe, hawaii, latin america, or the caribbean. it is fully transferable and can be used originating here or there. i had intended to use it to visit my grandfather who was sick, but he died before i got there so i have no use for it now. i'm looking for $500 or best offer, but act fast it will be gone on april 15 no matter what. -patrick (pat@wrs.com) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74732">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74732" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have an nec multisync 3d monitor for sale. great condition. looks new. it is .28 dot pitch svga monitor that syncs from 15-38khz it is compatible with all aga amiga graphics modes. leave message if interested. make an offer. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74734">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74734" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 nextstation 25mhz 68040 8/105 moto 56001 dsp megapixel (perfect - no dimming or shaking) keyboard/mouse (of course :) 2.1 installed 2.1 docs network and system administration user's reference the next book, by bruce webster (new copy) black nextconnection modem cable 30 hd disks (10 still in unwrapped box, others for backing up apps) i need to sell this pronto to get a car (my engine locked up)! machine runs great... only used in my house. has been covered when not in use on the days i wasn't around. $2,300 including federal express second day air, or best offer, cod to your doorstep (within continental us)!! i need to sell this now, so if you don't agree with the price, make an offer, but within reason. (please no letters asking me to donate for a tax break) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74736">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74736" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i'm looking to *buy* the following items: fax machine: a plain one, don't need any extras, just the basic model. good working order only. these sell in stores for dirt cheap, so don't make me any offers like "it cost me $599 but i'll sell it for $400" pc-at hard drive: mfm type, 40 mbytes, half-height only. i have a seagate st-151 (3.5") on my machine, looking for same or similar type i have the following item for *sale*: electronic typewriter: panasonic, with 22k memory, small lcd display. i'm selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface for this typewriter. you can connect it to any pc parallel port (sorry, no cable). it works perfect, even in windows (tty printer). it's great if you need to send letter with "typewriter look". in stand-alone mode it has 3 pitches, and several "effects" like underline, bold, overstrike. built-in dictionary and character/word/ line correction. asking $150 for both the typewriter and the jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge.lach@east.sun.com east coast division, chelmsford, ma 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74738">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74738" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have an intel above board (16 bit) with 2 megs of ram that i would like to sell asap. please email me offers if interested! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74739">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74739" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have the following bike for sale: type: dave scott centurion 1989 model size: 47 cm c-c grouppo: shimano 105 cranks: 165 cm pedals: shimano 105 p1050 with clips and straps frame: tange ii double butted steel gearing: front: 52/42 rear: 24-22-19-17-15-13 seat: terry womens gel seat computer: avocet 30 extras: double water bottle cages extra rear tire 24" front/700c rear setup my wife is asking for $350 obo. let me know if you are interested at the address below. thanks, -- mike -- -=--------- michael c. whitman ---===------- national system engineer - telecom -----=====----- pyramid technology corporation -------=======--- 1921 gallows road, suite 250 ---------=========- vienna, va 22182 phone: (703) 848-2050 pager: (800)sky-page pin# 45300 mike@pyrdc.va.pyramid.com -or- uunet!pyrdc!mike 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74740">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74740" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale: roland d-50: $700 or best offer. excellent condition. includes over 1000 patches on disk (in cakewalk sysex format) buyer must pay cod shipping. please e-mail responses to: gms2@po.cwru.edu george scott (gscott@b64542.student.cwru.edu) (gms2@po.cwru.edu) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74742">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74742" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 books for sale tally up any and all of the books you want and send me a message. shipping will be by us mail parcel post/book rate. payment in advance or cod accepted. all books are in good to excellent condition. paperbacks, unless noted. quantity discounts. this list is updated continually. the latest list can be requested by e-mail. this list supercedes all previous lists. not responsible for typos. !!!! = new to listing **** = claimed, but not paid for yet david hwang, ann arbor, michigan david@ganglion.ann-arbor.mi.us list of: february 27, 1993 using wordperfect 5 (que, stewart)............................... $10.00 using clipper (que, tiley)....................................... $10.00 trs-80 assembly language programming [barden].................... $ 1.00 57 practical programs & games in basic [tracton]................. $ 1.00 first book of wordperfect 5.1 [barnes]........................... $ 8.00 1984-1986 y car parts and illustration catalog [gm manual]....... $ 7.50 secrets of corvette detailing [antonick]......................... $ 7.50 eckler's complete guide to corvette fiberglass repair............ $ 7.50 corvette owners' workshop manual [haynes] [84-87]................ $ 7.50 chevrolet power catalog [gm manual] 6th. edition................. $ 3.50 corvette driver/owner guide for 1953-1988 models [antonick]...... $ 7.50 chevrolet small block v8 speed equipment buyers guide [lamm]..... $10.00 chilton's easy car care, 2nd. edition............................ $10.00 ophthalmology study guide for medical students................... $ 4.00 washington manual or medical therapeutics, 26th. ed.............. $10.00 respiratory physiology-the essentials [west], 3rd. ed............ $ 9.00 langman's medical embryology, 5th. ed. [sadler] -hardcover-...... $18.00 sold essentials of human anatomy, 7th. ed. [woodburne] -hardcover-.... $18.00 sold cardiology reference book, 3rd ed. [kloner]...................... $ 4.00 handbook of antimicrobial therapy 1992 [mandell]................. $ 4.00 guide to antimicrobial therapy 1991 [sanford] ................... $ 1.00 --> or free with $10.00 of med books comprehensive review of the basic sciences....................... $10.00 sold how to get into medical & dental school, 3rd. ed................. $ 2.00 sexual interactions [allgeier], 2nd ed. -hardcover-.............. $25.00 on call: principles and protocols [ruedy]........................ $ 9.00 physicans' desk reference [pdr], 46th ed., 1992 -hardcover-...... $10.00 introduction to general pathology [spector], 2nd ed. ............ $ 8.00 medical school admissions: strategy for success [weschler] 1982.. $ 4.00 getting into medical school [brown] 1981 ........................ $ 1.00 ten point plan for college acceptance [graham] 1981 ............. $ 2.00 college accounting, 9th ed., 1972 [carson] -hardcover-........... $ 2.00 david w. hwang, m.d. // university of michigan medical school 1050 wall street, suite 10c // telephone: 313/663-5557 ann arbor, michigan 48105 // internet: david@ganglion.ann-arbor.mi.us 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74743">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74743" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 the following listed tapes are priced to sell. a friend of mine wants to get rid of them, so let's just have some bids, why don't we? all are tapes, btw. ac/dc back in black good condition razor's edge excellent poison open up and... excellent flesh & blood excellent guns & roses appetite for destr.. fair use your ill. #1 good use your ill. #2 good skid row bside ourselves tape ok, case cracked slave to the grind excellent jackyl jackyl excellent bon jovi keep the faith(single) excellent this is for her, not for me... 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74744">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74744" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 western digital 3.5" ide 40 meg hard drive. $95 or bo. + shipping greg holdren (916)785-7481 gregh@hprnd.rose.hp.com geh@mothra.rose.hp.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74746">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74746" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the subject line says it all -- i'm trying to locate a copy of spi's board game "war of the ring." anyone have a copy with which they are willing to part? thanks a million ... -- tony (tlin@stat.berkeley.edu) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74749">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74749" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello folks, i've a super scope 6 for sale, it comes with a crt and all boxes and instructions included $50 shipping included. i got that only a month back and used only twice. (o o) (o o) _______ooo__(_)__ooo______________________ooo__(_)__ooo________ | srikanth ponnapalli | e-mail address: | | pobox: 5604, | | | raleigh n.c. 27650-5604 | sponna@eos.ncsu.edu | | phone:(919) 781-5448 | ponna-s@aza.csc.ncsu.edu | | (after 9:00 pm) | sponnapa@math.ncsu.edu | (__) (__) (__) (__) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74750">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74750" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale canon eos elan outfit -eos elan body -28-80 mm ef 1:3.5-5.6 usm lens -100-300 mm ef 1:4.%-5.6 usm lens -2 b&w uv filters -hoya circular polarising filter -canon rc-1 remote controller -pentax lens cloth -lowe pro camera bag -galen rowell photoflex lens bag -sapre lithium battery -hove foto bokk user guide to canon eos elan all as new condition the whole lot $800 (firm) contact david 617-227-7326 617-956-6905 please do not e-mail your queries. all talks only by phone. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74751">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74751" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i heard on one of these newsgroups a week or two ago that the kathy ireland budweiser posters were popular. there are supposedly half-size and life-size posters. well, someone i know got a life-size stand-up cardboard (thick, damn good quality) one, and was wondering what it was worth. anybody? what about the st. pat. posters from last year? i have a stack of about twenty, and two of the card-board cutouts. (no, they are not for sale, i collect them.) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74752">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74752" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi, everyone; i need an advice on what is the best way to get a scumster. several weeks ago i posted an article on behalf of a friend who wanted an external hd for mac. the scumster - r.e.p. - called my friend and they agreed on a price. my friend (unexperienced and not too fluent in english) paid by check, requesting r.e.p. to call him back when the check arrives and the hd is send. well, the check was cashed 3/24 and that is that. phone # that r.e.p. gave is on the answering machine all the time and there is no reaction when the message is left; e-mail address does not bounce but again there is no answer. i know, that r.e.p. is a student at university of delaware; i have his e-mail address, his us postal address and his (?) phone#. the question is: what is the best way to proceed? thanks in advance for any advice. victor levenson (vvl2h@virginia.edu) p.s. the reason i did not put r.e.p.'s full name is that i still hope... p.p.s. if i get enough responses i will post a summary, maybe even on a regular basis. dr.victor v.levenson tel (804) 924 2370 lab dept. of biochemistry internet vvl2h@virginia.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74753">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74753" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ok people, i really need to sell this sampler to pay off bills, so i'm even going to include 3 sample cds worth at least 200 separately in this deal..... it's an emax ii with standard memory and 16 bit stereo sampling it's rackmount and has at least 24 voice pol., it's got a brand new connor (sp.?) 170 meg internal scsi drive (4 wk old, never used) it works perfect and runs perfect. in addition access to a friends sound library of over 1gig of sounds is available... all this for only $1600.. the sample cd's are based on dance/house/techno stuff. email or call 213-341-4425 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74755">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74755" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i was wrong! i guess they are closer to $800 new! i will probably still sell them for the above implied $300 obo. email me if you want more specifics. this is a really attractive set of books, kind of a bible encyclopedia set. also email me if you know more about these books or post the information here. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74756">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74756" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a good used window air conditioner. a small one is preffered. call 495-2056 (peter) and we'll talk about it. or email me. "khiet@cn.ecn" 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74759">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74759" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 storage space for sale: iomega 44 mb removeable hd for sale w/ 16 cartridges. total storage space comes out to be about 750 mb. 6 cartridges still in original shrinkwrapping, unused. note: this is not compatible with sysquest 45 cartridges. scsi interface required... plugs right into the back of macintoshes, but i don't have a controller for the ibm. all utilities i have for it are for the mac. if you have a mac, then this is for you! i have a ton of software on these disks that i don't use anymore, because i sold my mac system. stuff included: most of the pd stuff from info-mac site, lots of gif's, and lots of sound effects. (1 entire disk with just sounds) i am asking $900 for all, plus shipping. for more information, send me mail (cxs2341@ultb.isc.rit.edu) or call (716) 427-0701... ask for sawran cxs2341@ultb.isc.rit.edu cxs2341@ritvax.isc.rit.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74760">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74760" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 panasonic kx-t3000h, combo black cordless & speaker phone all in one. new- $160, now- $100 + shipping obo. curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes. works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr. paid $300 years ago, will sell for $125 delivered obo. radio shack stereo amp. 2 inputs, tone, and left and right volume. speakers not included. $20 plus shipping. if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley@gibbs.out.unc.edu. _ // major: computer science /<eith radley \\// minor: english radley@gibbs.oit.unc.edu \/ computer: amiga 3000 university of north carolina 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74767">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74767" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ms dos 6.0 upgrade for sale best offer over $45 (opened, unregistered) so, does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos6.0 is worth upgrading to? how good is it's compression, and can it be turned on/off at will? any other nice/nasty features? according to reports, if you don't have dos yet, and don't have any utilities (qemm, stacker, pctools, norton, ...) then dos6 may be worth it. for people who have dos5, and some sort of utility, dos6 doesn't offer much. you'd never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create, however. :-) tom hatton hatton@cgl.ucsf.edu (415)-476-8693 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74769">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74769" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 finally a fax service to all internet users in the continental u.s. without prepayment of any kind. this service is provided by information system international based in fishers, indiana at isifisher@aol.com. as an internet user, your credit has been automatically approved. so you can start sending faxes right now. 1. how to send a fax to use this service, e-mail to: isifisher@aol.com in the following format: -your name -your phone number -your mailing address - the number you send fax to - the recipient's name and company - the address and phone number of the recipient (optional) - fax content your fax will be sent out within 24 hours. every fax will include a standard cover sheet free of charge which contains: (1) your name; (2) your phone number; (3) your address; (4) the recipient's name and company. upon sending out your fax, a receipt will be sent for your record. important: if this is your first time to use the fax service, you must include the following paragraph at the beginning of your e-mail: i hereby authorize information system international to open a fax account for me. i agree to pay all charges incurred upon receiving my monthly bill.. 2. what format is acceptable only plain ascii format and rich text format (rtf) are acceptable. (1) for plain ascii format, times new roman fonts of 12-point size will be (2) for rtf format, your fax document will appear exactly the same as it would appear on your local laser printer. in almost all word processing software on pc, mackintosh, sun workstation, etc., you can save your document in rtf format. 3. how to pay the first time you use our fax service, we will open an account for you under your name. you will be billed each month if you have a balance or when your balance has been over $50.00 - whichever comes first. 4. cost the cost for continental u.s (excluding hawaii & alaska) is only $1.50 for the first page, $0.75 for each additional page. each fax will include a cover sheet which is free. if you plan to use this service, you should save the entire text posted above. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74770">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74770" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 486 dx 50 mhz in zero insertion force socket empty over-drive socket eisa motherboard with 256k cache -->2 32 bit eisa slots -->2 32 bit vesa local bus slots -->4 16 bit isa slots 8 mb 70ns ram -->8 simms sockets filled with 1mb strips (0 sockets open) 32 bit eisa ide hard drive controller 330 meg ide hard disk drive w/ 64k cache (12ms) diamond viper weitek 9000 vesa local bus graphics card w/ 2mb 15" mag mx15f monitor 2 serial(ns16550afn uart), 1 parralell & 1 game ports full tower case -->250 watt power supply -->5 x 5.25" bays -->2 x 3.5" bays -->2 x hard drive bays 1.2mb 5.25" & 1.33mb 3.5" floppy drives enhanced 101 key keyboard hi-resolution 400 dpi serial mouse ms dos 5.0 and ms windows 3.1 or newer ami bios joint data motherboard 30 day money back gaurantee unconditional 2 year parts warranty lifetime labor warranty one year nationwide on site service this system is currently availble from comtrade, the company that won some of the highest (over dell, gateway and ibm) awards in recent pc magazine reviews. your price must be highly competitive, without sacrificing any of the quality standards listed above. please respond to sam.halperin@cccbbs.uceng via e-mail 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74771">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74771" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 16 bit mfm fd/hd controller - $25/b.o. copy card w/ software and cable - $30/b.o. (can copy any protected software) if interested, please reply to this account ==wun-chun chau===============================what a crazy world!============= internet:wchau@eng.buffalo.edu uucp: ...!{rutgers,uunet}!cs.buffalo.edu!wchau internet:wchau@cs.buffalo.edu bitnet: wchau%cs.buffalo.edu@ubvm.bitnet ===============do you want to die young? if you know what i mean :) ========== 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74772">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74772" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the package is called sun and sand, it includes: --5 days/ 4 nights(2+2) accommodations in orlando and daytona beach; --hotels are selected from major hotel chains and family resorts; --two adults and up to three children; --fully transferable; --expires at 09/93, $20 for extention of one more year; --it needs a 45 days advance reservation (esp. for peak season), the reservation department will offer a coupon book which may give you saving up to $150. --price: i bought it for $199, which is a good deal for peak seasons. for now, i will not turn down any reasonable offers. must sell. it doesn't include transportation. and you have to pay $3/day for hotel please e-mail your respond. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74773">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74773" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 your custom resume on disk! *macintosh or ibm compatible!* never pay the high cost of copy service again. we will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk or [blah blah blah deleted] who's "we"? carnegie mellon? 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74774">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74774" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 mediterranean investment property for sale javea, alicante spain (costa blanca) villa on a large lot in the wooded (pine) hills "above the noise". 2 bedrooms, living-dining room + glassed-in sun-porch; kitchen & bathroom. large lot surrounded by traditional white wall with wrought iron gates: room for an in-ground pool. 2 minutes from the sea and supermarket; 10 minutes from town and full amenities. area has specially favourable microclimate, mentioned in a who climate seat (fiat) runabout car, 3 years old may be included, in the deal. ideal for retirement or as a family holiday resort. must sell for family reasons. asking $150,000. reply by email or call canada (613)591-0507 simon curry, executive director tele: (613)991-9001 the royal society of canada fax: (613)991-6996 po box 9734, ottawa k1g 5j4 email: curry@doe.carleton.ca simon curry tele: (613)991-9001 the royal society of canada fax: (613)991-6996 po box 9734, ottawa k1g 5j4 email: curry@doe.carleton.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74779">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74779" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i would like to sell my logitech hand-held 256 gray scale scanner. i originally bought it as a toy and have no practical use for it. hardly ever used it. package includes: -scan-mate software -ansel image editing software -all original manuals, box, etc. originally bought for $350 in jan '92. selling for $150. if interested, let me know. -hans meyer 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74780">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74780" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 twin size - mattress, box spring and frame for sale. ** medico-pedic [type of mattress?] ** excellent condition ** 2 yrs old ** well maintained -- you come and pick it up, stuff is located in paloalto asking for: $75 contact: (415)-617-3522 [w] (415)-324-9553 [h] e-mail: suresh@pa.dec.com o o o o o o o . . . ______________________________ _____=======_||____ o _____ ||suresh balasubramanian | |suresh@pa.dec.com| .][__n_n_|dd[ ====_____ |digital equipment corp. | | (415) 617-3522 | (________|__|_[_________]_|____________________________|_|_________________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74781">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74781" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am posting this message for a friend of mine who does not have a computer account, if you have any questions please call dan at (814)238-1804. equipment rack for sale 16 space eia rack(19 in), carpet covered, on wheels. $125 + shipping 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74782">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74782" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a few things to sell. all items are in great condition. all prices include shipping. if you have any questions contact me by e-mail or call me at (814)234-4439. dj equipment - mixer case (with pop-up rails) $60 - (2) patch cords (3 meters, gold tips) $15 casualties of war (12 inch single) eric b. & rakim $2 get some (12 inch single) eyc & boo-ya tribe $2 black's magic salt & pepa $2 heart break new edition $2 the right stuff vanessa williams $2 toshiba ft6000 cordless phone $50 books (each book is priced as marked) 1. microcomputers for management p. fuhrman & g. buck $5 decison making (1st edition) 2. statistics: a fresh approach d. sanders, r. eng & $5 a. murph 3. quantitative approaches to r. levin, d. rubin & $5 management j. stinson 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74783">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74783" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am upgrading my computer systems to fax modems, and am selling my 2 2400/1200/300 baud usr modems without fax or error correction. one is internal ($25), the other is external ($30). both are u.s. robotics (the highest rated modem manufacturer). add $4 shipping or pick up in the washington dc area. offers welcome. (i would trade either for a 1x3x70ns simm.) john baker 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74784">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74784" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following are for sale (duh...:) golden image 400dpi b&w hand scanner & dpaint iii $70 amiga vision - mulitmedia authorizing software $30 baud bandit - terminal communication software $10 the bard's tale iii: thief of fate - graphic rpg $15 f-29 retaliator - flight simulator $15 future wars - fantasy/scifi graphic rpg $15 rvf honda - motocycle simulation $10 patlabor ingram and phantom labor models - japanese anime models $15 robotech rpg books (english): the ingrid invasion $10 southern cross $10 battletech books (english): the fox's teeth: exploits of mckinnon's raiders $5 gray death legion $5 mercenary's handbook $15 $15 $15 $15 ad&d books: monster manual $5 monster manual ii $5 fiend folio $5 lots of books in japanese and english on subjects of: japanese culture, asian art history, japanese language, socio-linguistics, ethnography, linguistics, physics, calculaus (menum and folis), unix and amiga programming, economics (micro, macro, intl. trade & finance, american economic development), and philosophy (language, ethics, cognition, science). if there's something you think you might be interested in let me know and i'll tell you what i have. jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu james miller _chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._ enlightenment happens? jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu james miller _chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._ enlightenment happens? 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74788">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74788" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi netters, i have the following vacation packages for sale: 1> bahamas vacation. 2 round trip tickets to freeport, grand bahamas. double occupancy, hotel accomodation. at $ 27 per person per night. 2> orlando florida + las vegas + reno/ lake tahoe vacation one round trip airline ticket. (from major us airports to the 3 of the above mentioned destinations) hotel accomodation for 1 or 2 people. (for 3 days/ 2 nights). for those who are interested, drop me a mail at clim@cis.ohio-state.edu. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale74789">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74789" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 |> in a previous article, tomc@arezzo.oas.olivetti.com (tom carlino) says: |> >recently i bought a musical instrument through the internet and had |> >it shipped to me via ups ground. the shipping was done through a |> >mail box service, mailboxes, etc. being somewhat surprised at the |> >price, i compared prices of shipping this way to shipping directly |> >through ups and this is a summary. i am not making any endorsements |> >or condemnations but merely presenting the facts from which you may |> >draw your own conclusions. |> i've encountered the same thing with mailboxes, etc. and i suggest |> anyone to use the original ups service if at all possible. shipping |> to virginia from cleveland was around $20 for 12 pounds, and c.o.d. |> was $8.00, as opposed to $4.50 for ups. i'll third the opinion about this outfit/franchise. now, when i buy over the net and pick up the shipping costs, i'll specify that i only pick up the normal ups charges (as if delivered directly to ups), as i've been burned by $10 shipping charges for a $2.49 pkg. i will never use a mailing service unless i don't have the right box and the buyer needs whatever immediately. i'll also tell the person, if they agreed to pick up shipping, what is going on. other things to watch out for/consider: the rates are $5 to $30 higher than ups direct. for a non-ups (truck) package, they quoted a rate of $85. fed ex economy air was only $85 for the same weight! rps (a trucking package company, in many cities) only wanted $18. guess who got it. the mailbox operator told me i was not telling the truth about competitors' rates, said rps was unreliable (i've used them before with no problems), etc. right. a cod check goes to the mailing service. our local mailbox then takes its sweet time mailing me the remade check. all this for an additional $3.00 over the ups cod charge. what a deal.... :-) for packages over $100, they charge you about double over what ups charges them for insurance. i've never had a claim, but other netters (is ralph seguin out there?) have told horror stories about them... all package traces have to be done through mailbox by our local mailbox operator told me i was lying when i asked him why their rates were stratospheric compared to direct ups. does he ever check? probably not... their ups ground rates come close to fed ex's economy air rate, and fed ex will pick up! ups will pick up for a $5 charge in most areas! dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74795">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74795" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 : these games are forsale (or trade): : * sonic hedgehog ii (two copies) : + manuals and cases .. : $25 each.. : (brand new!)_ hello, i am interested in sonic ii but when i send to the address below i get mail bounced back with "host unknow" error. : please reply to : kwill@lunatix.uucp : (subject: games) -=( paul wood )=- -=( pcwood@astro.ocis.temple.edu )=- 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74796">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74796" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 someone please buy these books!!!!! i am not asking much!!!!!! liquidation!!!!!! send me your offer! no reasonable offer refused! first come first served! i just want to get rid of these books!!! just make me an offer!!!!! * calculus w/ analytic geometry by authur b. simon (copyright date 1982), below avg condition but still readable! give me $8 (shipping incl) and its yours! * writing good software in fortran, graham smith. $12 (shipp incl) * general chemistry principles & modern applications, r. petrucci, fourth edition. big book! (this book + following 2 books $20 for all 3!!) * solutions manual for chemistry book. * study guide for chemistry book. send me your offers via email at 02106@chopin.udel.edu 02106@chopin.udel.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74798">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74798" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 jammer ! dit is geen fantastische advertentie over nep-rolexen maar een evenzo duidelijke mededeling hieromtrent : aangezien het alleen al aanbieden van deze horloges onder vermelding van de echte merknaam niet geheel correct is, wil ik met dit bericht duidelijk maken dat ik, marcel engelbertink, niet meer zal adverteren met imitatie-horloges van het merk rolex. enig persoon die hierin geiinteresseerd is kan ik jammer genoeg ook niet meer helpen. for all the foreign people who can't even understand dutch ?!? : in spite of earlier mailing about fake-rolex's, i announce that i don't have any information available any longer and i won't use the trade name rolex anymore for those fake models. yours fakefully, m.g. engelbertink 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74800">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74800" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 irwin suggests the use of pre-formatted tapes for their tape drives, as you often can't successfully format a tape and need bulk-erase it before you can format it again. anyway, i have some new, preformatted tapes for irwin 250 tape drives. irwin accutrak series 120-250mb, $16/ea. new never used. 3m dc2120, rhomat format. $16/ea. wraped. email if interested. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74805">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74805" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i am cleaning out the coffers. i have a virtually mint collection of heavy metal magazine. this is not a music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork, et al. jam packed with amazing sci-fi and fantasy artwork by many masters. all are mint with the exception of the 3 that have split seam on the cover only but are otherwise perfect, no cut outs or missing pages. i have sep, nov and dec issues for 1978, all issues for 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983 and jan thru sep for 1984 (72 issues in all i believe). i will not break them up. they will be sold as a single lot. send your offers to me. shipping not included, these are pretty heavy. of course if you are local (mass, usa) you can come get 'em in person. arthur_noguerola@vos.stratus.com if you send offers to this guy, keep in mind that you can get mint back issues from the publisher for $4 - $5 plus shipping, all except the very first 2 or three issues. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74806">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74806" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale in the baltimore - dc area one mac 2x 8/80 with radius 24 bit color dual page display and adapter microtek 300z color scanner qms colorscript 10 color postscript printer 2400 baud modem dyanfile with 360 k and 1.2meg floppies 30 software packages including pagemaker, quark express, style, photoshop, etc $7000 obo one compaq lte 286 with internal modem and 1.5 meg ram 20 hard drive $750 obo one compaq slt 286 with 5 meg ram and 40 meg hard drive $950 obo one compaq 386n motherboard only make an offer this has just returned from compaq service. six muxes with 9600 baud modems built in. make an offer 20 s-100 cpu from a multi-user turbodos system offer contact elliott @ (703) 329-7773 office (410) 992-1734 home or delliott@digex.com internet 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74807">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74807" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have a humminbird hdr200 depth sounder for sale. it has been used for 1 season on my sailboat. all parts are included as well as the installation instructions. it is even packed in the original box it came in. there is no damage to the unit or the transducer. in fact, the transducer was mounted *inside* the hull in a piece of pipe glued to the hull. so it led a "sheltered" life. the transducer can be mounted either inside the hull as i did, or on the transom. it cannot be placed in a hole drilled into your hull. it is fully waterproof and fits into a 2" hole in a bulkhead (that's where i had it installed) or into a standard dashboard on a powerboat. it reads depth to 199' and has a backlit lcd display. it has an adjustable shallow water alarm built in. i am changing out my instruments to another manufacturer that outputs the nmea 0183 information. this little depth sounder works fine and is very stable. it is usually priced as low as 130$ in some catalogs, i paid 150$. the first 80$ takes it, or best offer. john r. miller catalina 22, #4909 "tinker toy" 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74810">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74810" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 my brother is preparing to pay another year of college expenses and asked me to post this. 1987 alfa romeo gold milano model v-6 engine power everything! seats 4 comfortably looks / runs great $3,600 o.b.o. contact: brian wall (214) 393-1216 if interested (dallas area) 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74811">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74811" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 the following is posted for a friend. you can send replies to this email address or call him at 503-752-1499. (glen) i have a citizen overture 110 laser printer for sale. it is in excellent condition. it has been used less than one year on this drum. i am asking $500, but all offers will be considered. below are some specs on it. toner lifespan: 2500 pages drum lifespan: 15,000 pages resolution: 300 dpi memory: 512k emulation: epson fx286 ibm proprinter diablo 635 printing capacity: quad-density graphics tray capacity: 250 sheets reason for sale: financial--i need to pay tuition. -glen anderson bigelos@hobo.ece.orst.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74812">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74812" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 the following are available for $7.00 each (includes postage if in usa): ted nugent - penetrator jah wobble - rising above bedlam black 47 - ep marshall tucker band - long hard ride kid frost - east side story coffin break - thirteen steve wariner band - i got dreams 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74815">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74815" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 the headline says it all!!!!!!!! oh god i hope it works, oh god i hope it works damn, i should have know that rf stood for 'rarely functional' arlo georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 aude internet: gt9605a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74817">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74817" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 brand new, still shrink wraped stealth 24 for sale $150 plus shipping and cod. specifications: based on s3 801/805 32bit coporcessor, 1024x768x256 72hz ni, 800x600x64k ni, 640x480x16million ni, system requires 386 or 486 based isa or vesa vl-bus, with fast turbowindows drivers for 3.1 and other drivers for other popular softwares like wp, microsoft word,lotus,autocad. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74822">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74822" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i'm selling $388 worth of chemicals for $100 or i'll split it in two for $50 dollars apeice. aprox. 380 1oz bottles. will make a great chem set. will pay shipping up to $15. if really interested i will mail a partial list. please contact by e-mail only 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74825">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74825" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 : 5.25" 1.2mb and 3.5" 1.44 drives...new... planned on building machine, but : ran out of funds... $30.00 each drive what brand of drives are these? do you have documentation? i'll go $40.00 + shipping if you have documentation... do not pay $40 for floppy drives.. they are about $40 new. also, you do not need documentation for floppies. installation for these things are idiot proof. just some advice.. c_ommon pchang@ic.sunysb.edu s_ense state university of new york @ stony brook 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74826">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74826" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ms dos 6.0 upgrade for sale best offer over $45 (opened, unregistered) so, does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos6.0 is worth upgrading to? how good is it's compression, and can it be turned on/off at will? any other nice/nasty features? according to reports, if you don't have dos yet, and don't have any utilities (qemm, stacker, pctools, norton, ...) then dos6 may be worth it. for people who have dos5, and some sort of utility, dos6 doesn't offer much. you'd never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create, however. :-) i installed dos 6 last week, and had nothing but trouble afterwards. windows apps are hitting protection faults more than a kid can do to a pinata, and it does not seem to like to work with ndos (norton dos 7.0). other probs include: set pcplus=d:\pcplus for procomm plus no longer works. many of the little utilities to written for dos no longer works either. (mostly shareware) i now have uninstalled dos 6 , and dos 5 works just fine. are there any apps that dos 6 will be able to run that dos 5 wont? c_ommon pchang@ic.sunysb.edu s_ense state university of new york @ stony brook 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74827">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74827" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 looking to save money? i am your man. i will mail you $5 in food coupons for only$2.50. or you will get twice the dollar amount of coupons. so mail $15 and get $30 dollars in coupons. sounds like a great deal well it is. send sase to 766 s.elizabeth st. salt lake city, utah 84102 enclose money in form of a money order. personally, i would not trust a person to send coupons after money is sent. well, let me earn your trust. send $1 dollar, and i'll send you your $2 in store coupons. then we'll talk more e-mail enquiries to yb025@uafhp.uark.edu thank you, john schiefer 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74829">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74829" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 * // // "electronic networking for / psychnet.com / * ////// "professional psychology." /serving psychologists/ * // sychnet (1-800-541-2598) / world wide / whats with this psychnet thing...its on just about everyones's posting no matter where they post from. its getting very annoying. ian t. okabe (okabe@unixg.ubc.ca) atmospheric sciences, university of british columbia, vancouver, canada it's an experiment, place a not so subliminal, slightly cagey message in front of a viewer and see how long it takes to create a response, and what was the response... it was the same thing with the "blow me" message, only it had a quicker response time...and some unexpected responses along with the expectedly negative ones... anyone see how long that took? yours, in jest... tom t * tom testagrossa - e-mail: ttesta@kali.enet.dec.com * * us-mail: 132 clarendon st apt #2 * * fitchburg, ma 01420 u.s.a. * * phone: work (508)493-0437 (voicemail)* * home (508)342-2362 * * ask me about my guitars... * 
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<instance id="misc.forsale74831">
<answer instance="misc.forsale74831" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 to: dodge dart collectors i have a 1964 dodge (25th anniversary) dart 273ci v8 wagon to turn into cash. my asking price is $300.00 although we can negotiate. the car currently resides in union city, california. thats on the east side of the san francisco bay area in the state of california of the united states of america on the continent of north america of the planet earth, third planetary body out from sol, a mid range yellowish star in the western spiral arm of the milkyway toowhit: north of silicon valley if interested pleas contact scott by the following means: internet sbrogii@tymnet.com home answering machine 510.489.6165 business voice mail 408.922.6547 loud yell & wave money out the window ^(not recommended in downtown urban environment) ps. i also have a `72 bmw r60/5 for sale, $700.00. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75051">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75051" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 macintosh ii cx with 40 mb hd, 8 mb ram and 19" monochrome monitor (ikegami) is for sale. asking $3,000, no reasonable (best) offer will be rejected. contact konrad at (416) 365-0564m mon-frii 9-5. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75843">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75843" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following for sale. absolutely new, i won it at a raffle and have no use for it. microsoft excel software development kit version 4 for ms windows and the apple macintosh - a 498 page book by microsoft press - 2 3.5" floppy disks containing software/sample code - a poster of the api calls etc. orig. price is us$ 49.95. i would like to sell it for the highest offer over $30 + shipping. please email reply to attmail!akachhy avinash kachhy 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75844">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75844" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 panasonic phone with answering machine - looks like a brand new - all basic answering machine function - 8 phone number memory + recall function - 1 year old asking for $45.00 interest? please call me at 206-720-1089 --- alex choe 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75846">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75846" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for cd-disk users this is not a commercial ad! i have alot of new cd-disks if you have a cdrom and are interested in purchasing some of these disks please download the list mentioned below: cd night owl's v8.0 $35.00 download the file----> cdromcat.zip or the freq the magic name of----> catalog craig landgraf buckwheats pleasure dome 713-855-1701 internet/usenet: landgraf@p2.f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org podnet 93:9008/5 fidonet 1:106/88.1 itcnet 85:841/803 kinknet 69:1700/3 sganet 30:301/0 bbs number (713) 855-1701 p.s. if you send me email with your home address i will mail you a list to your house.......the list is 12 pages long...this is if you do not have a computer that you can call and get the list faster..... 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75847">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75847" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 north heavy duty hi hat stand $45 older stand... but definately in working shape.. could use a little clean up. comes with clutch and felts, etc.. pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater $20 honer cymbal stand $15 (needs some work on cymbal stem) zildjian 20" ride cymbal $55 main line zildjian... older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand $10 okay snare stand.. not like a remo though ;) shipping extra.. please email stephen m. jones <=> sdf.system.administrator smj@sdf.lonestar.org <cs&e> 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75848">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75848" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i need to sell the following items: an apple iie computer includes: 300 baud modem 80 columns zenith green monitor tons of software and manuals controller & i/o card a western digital wdat-440 includes: winchester controller floppy controller 2 serial ports parallel port no docs, but jumper settings are printed on the card. an aamazing 1024x768 .28 dot pitch svga monitor interlaced 14" unlimited colors includes: power cord and connecting cable must sell these items by may 4. make me an offer on any of them. -cliff kaminsky cliff@engin.umich.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75851">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75851" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 these utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards. i need to get rid of some excess. they're the latest versions. i've priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail-order price around. * pc tools for dos 8.0, best-selling utilities collections, includes dos shell, antivirus program, backup program, disk defragger, memory optimizer, remote communications link, data protection and recovery utilities, appointment book, address book, and more, list $179, sale $80. * norton backup for dos 2.2, supports dos 6, tape backup systems, and lans, twice as fast as backup in dos 6, highly automated and customizable, list $149, sale $65. * qaplus 4.7, top-rated dos based systems diagnostics program, more comprehensive than anything included in dos, windows, or utilities collections, invaluable for determining sources of problems with ram, video, drives, ports, keyboard, motherboard, joystick, mouse, speaker, and so on, list $159, sale $70. if you're interested in any of these programs, please phone me at 215-885-7446 (philadelphia), and i'll save the package for you. reid goldsborough reidg@pacs.pha.pa.us 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75854">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75854" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 ********************[ pc game for sale ]****************** waxworks by horrorsoft/accolade (5.25") $30 by the same folks who brought you elvira i & ii. i played elvira i & ii, and think that horrorsoft has finally made a very playable game with waxworks. the look and feel is roughly the same as in the elvira games, though the real time fighting is a little easier to survive. the first two games, especially elvira ii: jaws of cerberus made it very tough to stay alive and hit-point restoring was very difficult. this is not to say that waxworks is a walk in the park, but it is quite fair, in that there is always some weapon to be found that is quite effective, or hint given as to the proper fighting strategy. in one of the four wax works to be explored, there is no fighting at all (well almost none), though all four contain moderately challanging puzzles. the really interesting thing about this game is that it is really broken up into four seperate rpgs, one for each of the four exhibits you must enter. in starting each one, your character is transported with no objects to use, and experience level 1. one exhibits traps you inside a multi-level ancient egyptian pyramid which you must escape by fighting, mapping and puzzle solving. another exhibit traps you in a mine that has been taken over by creeping plant vines and pods, while the local humans have been transformed into plant zombies. this is a single level maze that requires you to rescue some humans, kill the head plant alien, and figuere out how to kill the very tuff plant zombies that are always showing up. this is perhaps the most horrifying exhibit. another exhibit puts you into jack the ripper england where you appear by the corpse of a fresh ripper victim, and of course the police think you are responsible. you must avoid police and angry mobs to unravel the mystery of the ripper and meet him face to face - but first get a disquise. the last exhibit pus you in a graveyard where most of the challenge is in learning to stop the almost indestructible zombies. over all the vga graphics and music are very effective in setting a creepy tone for the game, as was the case for the elvira games, though gameplay is much improved and makes for a much more enjoyable game. i heartily recommend it for rpg and horror fans. - all prices include shipping. - all games are in excellent condition unless otherwise stated. - us buyers only please. - all games will be shipped inside a box with packing, insured, priority usps. - all games include all original materials including box, manual, disks, and registration unless otherwise noted. the first responder offering asking price is guarenteed to get the game. those just asking questions get no priority until they offer to buy the game. lower offers may be considered assuming no other offers at asking price are made. sam bauer | hewlett packard co., (719)-531-4460 | network test division smb@col.hp.com | colorado springs,co 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75857">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75857" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have a hewlett-packard laserjet series ii paper tray for sale. its letter size (8.5 - 11), brand new in the box and never used. i'm asking $40.00 (bought new at ballard computer for $65.95) please reply to jeffo at spooge@u.washington.edu or (206)543-0340 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75859">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75859" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 please do not respond directly to this account for sale: blue 1984 toyota pickup truck with white blazer topper, am/fm/casette, a/c, cruise control. great for camping trips. new: brakes, master brake cylinder, michelin tires, shocks, maintenance free battery, clutch, windshield wipers. well maintained with all toyota parts (all repairs done at the dealers.) very little rust, body in good shape. 126k miles asking $2800. if interested, please contact: ursula fritsch umf@gene.com (415)-347-6813 please do not respond directly to this account rob mcnicholas technical & computing services, ee/cs, u.c. berkeley robm@eecs.berkeley.edu voice: 510/642-8633 fax: 510/643-7846 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75860">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75860" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the chemicals are gone thanks for all the response 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75862">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75862" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 "the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien- tists" lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc/xt/at/ps/2 class machines. focus is on engineering and scien- tific applications of pcs, such as data acquisition/control, design automation, and data analysis and presentation. if you would like a free copy, reply with your (u. s. postal) mailing address. don't bother - it never comes. it's a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication. -andy sent his address months ago perhaps we can get portal to nuke this weasal. i never received a catalog either. if that person doesn't respond to a growing flame, then we can assume that we'yall look forward to lotsa junk mail. i don't want him nuked, i want him to be honest. the junk mail has been much more interesting than the promised catalog. if i'd known what i was going to get, i wouldn't have hesitated. i wouldn't be surprised if there were other folks who looked at the ad and said "nope" but who would be very interested in the junk mail that results. similarly, there are people who wanted the advertised catalog who aren't happy with the junk they got instead. the folks buying the mailing lists would prefer an honest ad, and so would the people reading it. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75863">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75863" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello neo-geo owners (and non-owners who couldn't resist the title;)), i was wondering if any of you out there want to trade or sell games. i mean, buying them from the stores can get kinda expensive. $184.99 is a little too much to be spending on each game. but ahh, the quality... now i can get them for about $100, but that's still a lot. right now, i have: crossed swords magician lord baseball stars 2 fatal fury nam-1975 i am interested in buying more titles. if any of you have any interesting trade ideas, please let me know. tomcat@leland.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75868">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75868" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for the coleco tablehockey games that were popular in the 70's. the games that i seek have straight slots for the defenseman, not the s shaped slots. the players are attatched to rods operated with springs. if you have a game(or games) that you would be willing to part with, please send me an e-mail message at u34815@uicvm.uic.edu. price is negotiable and i would also cover shipping if you are out of state. i am part of a league that plays on a regular basis, the cthl (the chicago table hockey league), and need a game to practice on. also, the league itself is always interested in purchasing games to expand itself. thank you, ken harris. equipment to expand it's size. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75870">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75870" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 1976 bmw 530i the original four door sports sedan arctic blue metallic with gold alloy plus-1 wheels (rial 15") goodyear eagle gt+4 racing tires (mud/snow-rated) 3.0 liter, 186 hp, fuel injected engine w/stahl headers adjustable gas shocks all around (koni,byk) 4 speed stick, 4 wheel power disc brakes, sunroof, ps, ac listen-up installed hidden speaker stereo w/subwoofer 208k miles (yet much better condition than most cars w/100k) meticulously maintained: all records, 3k mi oil changes faded paint on top, otherwise excellent exterior and interior. the car has required no major repair work in the more than ten years i have owned it. it has never failed to start or broken down, even in the coldest weather. this has been an extraordinarily reliable and economical car, and shows every sign of staying that way. yet it is an absolute thrill to drive when you take it to secluded twisty mountain road! i sell it now, reluctantly, since i just succumbed to the convertible craving and bought a new miata. $2500 obo rich fozzard 497-6011 or 444-3168 richard fozzard "serendipity empowers" univ of colorado/cires/noaa r/e/fs 325 broadway, boulder, co 80303 fozzard@fsl.noaa.gov (303)497-6011 or 444-3168 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75872">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75872" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale dining table (wooden) with 6 chairs $ 125 dining table scandinavian style $ 30 steel desk - free if interested, please call hemant betrabet 6431 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75873">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75873" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 4 month old sega genesis, barely used, one controller, in original box, with sonics 1 and 2. $130 gets the whole bundle shipped to you. turns out they're not as addictive when they're yours. anyway, mail me if you're interested in this marvel of modern technology. andrew boyko aboyko@dixie.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75874">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75874" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 gotta pay my well bill - eating is of mere passing interest in kawai k-4 synthesizer for $400 if you act now - cash only pleeze, take delivery in berkeley. call (510) 287-5737 and leave name and number for me to call back and arrange this marvelous feast. offer expires soon (how soon? soon - believe it.) act now. thank you for your support . . . {wheeze} 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75879">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75879" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 greetings: here is a list of items for the 3b1 which i am selling: dbase iii - full dbase iii multiuser development/runtime for 3b1! microsoft basic interpreter - gives 2.5 megabytes ram available! microsoft word - full featured mouse-based multiuser word-processor. microsoft multiplan - nice multiuser spreadsheet program. gss-chart - nice graphical program for creating business charts. lpi-c - a robust c compiler. i'll throw in lpi-debug:single-step,alter vars. at&t electronic mail - very nice office-based front end to mail. i'll take $500 or best offer for the whole bunch. i bought all of these new in 1985, and paid over $2,000 for these excellent programs. i'd rather sell them together, but don't hesitate to make me an offer for one. i'd consider possible trades. i'm interested in the following 3b1 hardware: ethernet card with or without software tape backup external expansion unit upgraded p5.1 motherboard (or just info on who can do the p5.1 upgrades) icus 2nd hard drive upgrade kit at&t 513bct, 610, 615, or 4415 terminals with the unixpc-style keyboard make me an offer. bob ames bob@crl.com 707-546-0669 ps: i can get unix pcs with 40m drives and 1m motherboards loaded with 3.51m, cnews, smail, trn, rn, elm, nethack, gzip, hdb, and a couple other things for about $550 each plus shipping. let me know if you're interested. pps: priam d519 150m hard drives (exactly same as maxtor 2190, but faster) are on sale for $280 thru a vendor in la (number not handy, write for info) this is a very good price for these drives, the largest, fastest hds available for the unix pc. (note, to fully use the entire 150m, you'll need the p5.1 motherboard upgrade [who does these?], and a wd2010) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75884">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75884" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale: precision drafting machine, bruning ogp-0180. solid older model with spring-loaded counter balance; clamps on table. without scales. for right handed person. $60/make offer, includes ups/parcel post i'm guessing that it's from the 1940s or 1950s, a period well known for excellent drafting machine construction! :-) it's built with real metal parts, not cheap modern plastic, and it's painted the typical office grey popular in that period. it's smooth working, and each of the two "arms" on it measures roughly 24". it has a dual clamp to enable you to clamp it on the edge or corner of a table. rick inzero rochester!cci632!rdi northern telecom, ltd uunet!ccicpg!cci632!rdi rochester, ny rdi@cci.com 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75886">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75886" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 two years old crate guitar amplifier model g80xl. - handles upto 80 watts. - dual input. - two channels. - three band eq. i am asking $150. (send me a mail to "thssjxy@iitmax.acc.iit.edu" if you are interested.) prices maybe negotiable. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75887">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75887" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 hi there again... i still have a few tapes left... as before they are $2.50 each (postage paid). multiple orders appreciated, but not necessary... package deals welcome... thanks... chris bray lewis, huey|sports hooters|nervous night poison|look what the cat dragged in hall & oates|big bam boom ratt|out of the cellar quiet riot|condition critical seger, bob|like a rock outfield|play deep plant, robert|shaken n' stirred journey|raised on radio duran duran|duran duran duran duran|arena duran duran|rio 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75890">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75890" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 updated april 17, 1993. title price alpha flight 13 (wolverine appears) $ 8.40 50 (double size) $ 1.05 51 (jim lee's first work at marvel) $ 6.30 aliens 1 (1st app aliens in comics, 1st prnt, may 1988) $23.10 amazing spider-man 128 (3rd vulture) $15.00 136 (intro new green goblin) $22.00 137 (green goblin appears) $14.00 180 (green goblin appears) $11.00 238 (1st appearance hobgoblin) $60.00 250 (hobgoblin appears) $ 8.40 267 (peter david script, human torch) $ 2.45 275 (r/origin spiderman, hobgoblin) $ 8.40 276 (hobgoblin appears) $ 6.30 284 (punisher, hobgoblin appear) $ 6.30 291 (spiderslayer appears) $ 3.15 293 (kraven appears) $ 5.60 294 (kraven appears) $ 5.60 306 (todd mcfarlane) $ 7.00 312 (hobgoblin vs green goblin) $12.60 315 (venom appears) $10.50 320 (todd mcfarlane art) $ 4.90 321 (todd mcfarlane art) $ 4.90 323 (silver sable, paladin, c. america) $ 4.90 324 (sabretooth appears) $ 8.40 325 (red skull, captain america) $ 4.90 328 (hulk appears, last mcfarlane) $ 5.25 330 (punisher appears) $ 2.80 331 (punisher appears) $ 2.80 337 (hobgoblin appears) $ 2.45 338 $ 1.75 342 $ 1.75 343 $ 1.75 344 (intro cletus kassady - carnage) $ 4.90 346 (venom appears) $ 4.90 347 (venom appears) $ 4.90 348 $ 1.40 349 $ 1.40 350 (52 pages) $ 2.10 351 $ 1.40 352 $ 1.40 353 (punisher, darkbawk appear) $ 1.40 354 $ 1.40 355 (punisher appears) $ 1.40 356 (punisher appears) $ 1.40 357 (punisher appears) $ 1.40 358 (punisher appears) $ 1.40 365 (1st app spider-man 2099, holo-c) $ 4.20 annual 24 $ 2.45 annual 25 (1st solo venom story) $ 3.50 annual 26 (new warriors, venom) $ 3.50 anne rice's vampire companion 1 $ 5.00 anne rice's vampire lestat 5 $ 5.00 archer and armstrong 1 (frank miller/smith/layton) $ 9.00 9 $ 2.50 10 $ 2.50 avengers 263 (1st appearance x-factor) $ 3.50 272 (alpha flight appears) $ 1.05 300 (68 pages, new team) $ 1.75 306 $ 0.70 324 (alpha flight appears) $ 0.70 329 (new team) $ 0.70 annual 15 $ 2.45 annual 18 $ 2.10 annual 19 $ 1.75 batman legends of the dark knight 1 (blue cover) $ 3.85 3 $ 2.00 batman shadow of the bat 1 (still in polybag) $ 5.00 batman versus predator 1 (prestige edition, predator) $ 5.00 1 (prestige edition, batman) $ 5.00 batman year one (trade paperback, 1st printing) $ 7.00 bloodshot 1 (chromium cover, bwsmith cover/poster) $ 7.00 3 $ 2.50 4 $ 2.50 5 $ 2.50 daredevil 131 (origin bullseye) $16.00 138 (ghost rider, death's head early app) $11.00 158 (frank miller art begins) $40.00 159 (deathstalker appears, frank miller art) $20.00 169 (elektra 2nd appearance, bullseye) $ 5.60 170 (bullseye, kingpin appear) $ 4.20 182 (punnisher appears, frank miller art) $ 8.40 183 (punnisher appears, frank miller art) $ 8.40 184 (punnisher appears, frank miller art) $ 8.40 196 (wolverine appears) $ 8.40 darkhawk 2 (spider-man and hobgoblin appear) $ 7.00 dark horse presents 1 (1st app concrete, 1st printing) $ 8.40 5 (concrete appears) $ 2.80 25 $ 2.10 32 (annual) $ 2.80 37 $ 1.40 42 (aliens appear) $ 3.50 dazzler 1 (x-men appear) $ 1.40 40 $ 0.70 41 $ 0.70 42 (beast appears) $ 0.70 deathlok 1 $ 2.80 deathstroke the terminator 1 (1st printing) $ 5.60 2 $ 3.50 defenders 125 (intro new defenders) $ 2.10 152 (double size, x-factor appears) $ 2.00 demon 13 (lobo appears) $ 1.05 14 (lobo appears) $ 1.05 15 (lobo appears) $ 1.05 eternal warrior 1 (miller cover) $11.00 2 $ 7.00 9 $ 2.50 10 $ 2.50 11 $ 2.50 fantastic four 112 (hulk vs. the thing) $25.00 337 (simonson art begins) $ 0.70 338 (simonson art) $ 0.70 339 (simonsom art) $ 0.70 344 (simonson art) $ 0.70 345 (simonson art) $ 0.70 347 (art adams cover art, wolverine) $ 3.50 348 (ghost rider/wolverine appear) $ 2.10 349 (ghost rider/wolverine appear) $ 2.10 350 (52 pages) $ 1.75 351 $ 0.70 352 (simonson art) $ 0.70 353 (simonson art) $ 0.70 354 (simonson art) $ 0.70 355 $ 0.70 356 (fantastic four vs new warriors) $ 0.70 358 (80 page 30th anniversary issue) $ 2.25 359 $ 0.70 360 $ 0.70 361 $ 0.90 362 $ 0.90 annual 24 $ 1.40 flash 27 $ 1.05 28 $ 1.05 48 $ 0.70 50 $ 1.25 53 (superman/flash race) $ 0.70 ghost rider 16 (spider-man/hobgoblin cover and story) $ 2.45 17 (spider-man/hobgoblin cover and story) $ 2.45 ghost rider and cable 1 (sam keith cover) $ 4.00 ghost rider and captain america: fear $ 5.00 guardians of the galaxy 25 (prism foil cover) $ 2.50 harbinger 10 (1st appearance h.a.r.d. corps) $ 7.00 16 $ 3.00 17 $ 2.50 18 $ 2.50 h.a.r.d. corps 1 $ 5.00 6 $ 2.50 7 $ 2.50 havok and wolvreine: meltdown 1 $ 3.50 incredible hulk 314 (byrne art begins) $ 3.50 323 $ 1.40 324 (1st app grey hulk since #1, 1962) $ 7.00 327 $ 1.40 330 (1st mcfarlane issue) $17.50 331 (grey hulk series begins) $11.20 367 (1st dale keown art in hulk) $14.00 372 (green hulk appears, keown art) $12.60 373 (keown art) $ 4.20 376 (keown art, grey vs green hulk) $ 4.20 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, keown) $14.00 381 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 384 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 385 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 386 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 387 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 388 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 389 (keown c/a) $ 2.10 390 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 392 (keown c/a) $ 2.80 393 (green foil stamped cover, keown) $ 5.60 infinity gauntlet 1 (perez painted cover. thanos) $ 7.00 2 (thanos) $ 4.20 3 (thanos) $ 2.80 john byrne's next men 3 $ 3.00 4 $ 3.00 justice league america 46 $ 0.70 47 $ 0.70 50 $ 1.25 52 $ 0.70 justice league quarterly 1 $ 2.50 justice society of america 1 (april 1991) $ 1.25 kamandi 1 (origin kamandi, kirby art) $25.00 2 (kirby art) $15.00 3 (kirby art) $ 9.00 7 (kirby art) $ 5.00 last generation 1 $ 2.10 magnus robot fighter 21 (new direction & logo begins) $ 5.00 23 $ 3.00 24 $ 2.50 marc spector moon knight 25 (ghost rider appears) $ 2.50 marvel comics presents 1 (wolverine, silver surfer) $ 7.00 2 (wolverine, master of kungfu) $ 3.50 3 (wolverine, master of kungfu) $ 3.50 4 (wolverine, master of kungfu) $ 3.50 5 (wolverine, daredevil) $ 3.50 6 (wolverine, hulk) $ 2.80 7 (wolverine, submariner) $ 2.80 10 (wolverine, man-thing) $ 2.80 11 (man-thing, ant-man) $ 1.40 12 (man-thing, colossus) $ 1.40 13 (black panther, shanna) $ 1.40 14 (black panther, nomad) $ 1.40 17 (ron lim art, black panther) $ 1.40 18 (ron lim art, black panther) $ 1.40 19 (rob liefeld art, cyclops) $ 1.40 20 (ron lim art, black panther) $ 1.40 21 (ron lim art, black panther) $ 1.40 22 (ron lim art, black panther) $ 1.40 25 (nth man, havok, blk panther) $ 1.40 26 (black panther, havok, hulk) $ 1.40 27 (black panther, havok) $ 1.40 28 (black panther, havok) $ 1.40 29 (black panther, havok) $ 1.40 30 (black panther, havok) $ 1.40 31 (erik larsen, excalibur) $ 1.40 42 (wolverine) $ 2.10 51 (rob liefeld, wolverine) $ 2.10 52 (rob liefeld, wolverine) $ 2.10 53 (rob liefeld, silver sable) $ 2.10 60 (wolverine, hulk) $ 4.20 62 (jackson guice, deathlok) $ 5.60 63 (poison, thor, scarlet witch) $ 2.80 64 (mark texiera, ghost rider) $ 3.15 65 (mark texiera, ghost rider) $ 3.15 66 (mark texiera, ghost rider) $ 3.15 67 (mark texiera, ghost rider) $ 3.15 72 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 5.60 73 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 2.80 75 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 2.10 76 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 2.10 77 (b.w.smith, weapon x,dracula) $ 2.10 80 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 2.10 81 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 1.75 82 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 1.75 83 (b.w.smith, weapon x) $ 1.75 84 (b.w. smith, weapon x) $ 1.75 85 (1st keith art and jae lee) $ 4.20 88 (keith, wolverine, beast) $ 2.80 97 (ghost rider, cable) $ 1.40 104 (wolverine, ghost rider) $ 1.05 106 (wolverine, ghost rider) $ 1.05 maxx 1 (sam keith) $ 3.00 metropol 1 (ted mckeever) $ 3.00 mighty mouse 2 $ 1.25 4 $ 1.00 5 $ 1.00 6 $ 1.00 10 $ 1.00 moon knight 1 (1980) $ 3.00 'nam 6 $ 1.70 7 $ 1.70 52 (frank castle (punisher)) $ 3.15 new mutants 18 (intro new warlock, magus) $ 6.30 85 (rob liefeld/todd mcfarlane cover) $ 1.05 86 (mcfarlane cover, 1st app cable - cameo) $10.50 88 (rob liefeld, 2nd cable) $14.00 89 (rob liefeld, 3rd cable) $10.50 90 (rob liefeld, sabretooth appears) $ 8.40 91 (rob liefeld, sabretooth appears) $ 8.40 92 (rob liefeld cover) $ 3.50 93 (rob liefeld, wolverine vs cable) $10.50 94 (rob liefeld, wolverine vs cable) $10.50 96 (rob liefeld, x-tinction agenda) $ 8.40 97 (rob liefeld, wolverine/cable cover) $ 8.40 98 (1st app deadpool, gideon, domino) $ 8.40 99 (1st app feral of x-force) $ 5.40 100 (1st app x-force) $ 6.30 annual 4 (evolutionary war) $ 2.10 annual 5 (1st liefeld art on new mutants) $12.60 annual 6 $ 1.40 annual 7 (2nd app x-force) $ 8.40 summer special 1 (art adams art) $ 2.10 olympians 1 (mcfarlane) $ 2.80 omega men 3 (1st appearance lobo) $ 7.00 10 (1st full lobo story) $ 7.00 annual 1 $ 1.05 2 $ 1.05 power man & iron fist 78 (3rd appearance sabretooth) $25.00 84 (4th appearance sabretooth) $20.00 power pack 27 (wolverine and sabretooth appear) $ 7.00 predator: big game 3 (contains trading cards) $ 2.10 punisher 9 (wilce portacio) $ 7.70 punisher and captain america: blood and glory 1 $ 5.00 2 $ 5.00 3 $ 5.00 punisher p.o.v 1 (starlin script, wrightson art) $ 5.00 2 (starlin script, wrightson art) $ 5.00 3 (starlin script, wrightson art) $ 5.00 punisher war journal 16 (jim lee art) $ 3.50 29 (ghost rider appears) $ 1.75 30 (ghost rider appears) $ 1.75 31 $ 1.25 32 $ 1.25 35 $ 1.25 36 $ 1.25 38 $ 1.25 39 $ 1.25 40 $ 1.25 punisher war zone 1 (die-cut cover) $ 2.45 2 $ 1.75 ragman 1 (pat broderick, origin ragman) $ 3.00 rocketeer special edition (dave stevens art, 1984) $ 7.00 shadowman 13 $ 2.50 14 $ 2.50 simpsons comics and stories 1 (polybagged special ed.) $10.00 solar man of the atom 18 $ 3.00 19 $ 2.75 20 $ 2.75 21 $ 2.50 22 $ 2.50 spectacular spider-man 81 (punisher appears) $ 9.80 93 (answer appears) $ 2.10 94 (cloak and dagger appear) $ 2.10 95 (cloak and dagger appear) $ 2.10 99 (spot appears) $ 2.10 116 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 117 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 119 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 124 (dr. octopus appears) $ 1.75 130 (hobgoblin appears) $ 2.80 131 (kraven appears) $ 4.20 132 (kraven appears) $ 3.50 140 (punisher appears) $ 2.10 142 (punisher appears) $ 3.50 143 (punisher appears) $ 3.50 147 (1st app new hobgoblin) $14.00 152 (origin lobo bros, punisher) $ 1.40 157 $ 1.40 158 (spider-man gets new powers) $ 8.40 159 (cosmic spider-man appears) $ 5.60 160 $ 1.05 189 (1st ed hologram, hobgoblin) $ 5.60 annual 10 (mcfarlane story) $ 1.75 spider-man 1 (gold edition, direct sale) $ 3.50 1 (regular edition, green, unbagged) $ 3.50 5 (lizard, calypso appear, mcfarlane) $ 2.80 6 (hobgoblin, ghost rider appear) $ 4.20 7 (hobgoblin, ghost rider appear) $ 4.20 13 (black costume returns) $ 3.50 14 (black costume, morbius appear) $ 5.00 16 (mcfarlane/liefeld art, x-force appears) $ 3.00 18 (sinister six, hulk appear) $ 2.00 19 (hulk, deathlok appear) $ 2.00 26 (origin retold, hologram cover) $ 3.00 star trek the next generation 1 (feb 1988, dc mini) $ 7.00 star trek the next generation 1 (oct 1989, dc comics) $ 6.30 2 $ 4.20 strange adventures (dozens, but in varying high grades) ask swamp thing 72 $ 1.25 73 (john constantine appears) $ 1.25 annual 3 $ 1.40 tales of the teen titans 44 (deathstroke app/orogin) $ 5.60 terminator 1 (dark horse) $ 4.20 terminator: secondary objectives 1 $ 2.10 terminator 2 judgement day 1 $ 1.00 thor 374 (mutant massacre, x-factor, sabretooth app) $ 5.60 432 (eric masterson becomes new thor) $ 2.10 warlock and the infinity watch 2 (starlin scripts) $ 2.80 3 $ 2.10 4 $ 1.60 5 $ 1.60 6 $ 1.60 7 $ 1.25 8 $ 1.25 9 (gamora vs thanos) $ 1.25 web of spider-man 2 $ 4.90 3 $ 4.90 4 $ 3.50 5 $ 3.50 8 (thunder appears) $ 3.15 16 (magma appears) $ 2.30 18 $ 2.30 20 $ 2.30 21 $ 2.30 29 (hobgoblin, wolverine appear) $ 9.10 30 (origin rose, hobgoblin appears) $ 8.40 47 (hobgoblin appears) $ 1.00 52 $ 1.00 66 (green goblin as super-hero) $ 1.40 67 (green goblin as super-hero) $ 1.40 68 $ 1.00 71 $ 1.00 72 $ 1.00 73 $ 1.00 74 $ 1.00 75 $ 1.00 76 $ 1.00 77 $ 1.00 78 $ 1.00 79 $ 1.00 80 $ 1.00 81 $ 1.00 82 $ 1.00 83 $ 1.00 84 (rose & hobgoblin story) $ 1.00 85 (rose & hobgoblin story) $ 1.00 86 (rose & hobgoblin story) $ 1.00 87 (rose & hobgoblin story) $ 1.00 90 (hologram cover, polybagged) $ 4.20 91 $ 1.00 annual 3 $ 2.00 werewolf by night 33 (2nd appearance moon knight) $20.00 37 (moon knight appears) $ 5.00 wolverine 10 (before claws, 1st battle with sabretooth) $16.80 41 (sabretooth claims to be wolverine's dad) $ 7.00 42 (sabretooth proven not to be his dad) $ 3.50 43 (sabretooth/wolverine saga concludes) $ 2.80 wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, miller art) $21.00 wonder woman 267 (return of animal man) $13.00 annual 1 $ 2.00 2 $ 2.00 x-factor 47 $ 1.05 51 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 52 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 53 (sabretooth appears) $ 3.50 57 $ 1.00 62 (x-tinction agenda, jim lee cover) $ 4.20 63 (whilce portacio art begins) $ 4.20 69 (whilce portacio art) $ 1.40 70 (last "old team" issue) $ 1.40 annual 6 (new warriors, x-force appear) $ 1.75 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, x-force card) $25.00 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, shatterstar card) $15.00 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, deadpool card) $15.00 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, sunspot/gideon) $15.00 1 (bagged, cable card) $ 4.20 x-men 210 (mutant massacre, intro marauders) $12.60 211 (mutant massacre, marauders appear) $12.60 212 (wolverine battles sabretooth) $22.00 213 (wolverine battles sabretooth) $22.00 218 (art adams cover) $ 2.80 226 (fall of the mutants) $ 5.60 239 (inferno) $ 2.80 245 (rob liefeld art) $ 2.10 253 (all new x-men begin) $ 2.80 267 (jim lee art series begins) $ 8.40 276 (jim lee art) $ 1.05 277 (last jim lee art) $ 1.05 279 $ 1.05 280 $ 1.05 281 (new x-men team, 1st printing) $ 4.20 x-o manowar 13 $ 3.00 15 $ 3.00 16 $ 3.00 all comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. some titles i have posted here don't list every issue i have of that title, i tried to save space. geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75893">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75893" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 well, i have it forsale again (the last deal didn't work out) and i lowered the price again! cobra 146 gtl single side band w/mike --> $75 or best offer! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------cal poly, life, liberty, and the slo, ca 93401 pursuit of land speed records. -autobahn commuters 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75894">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75894" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have these items for sale. terms are ups cod or prepayment by money order. 2 101 keyboards for ibm compatibles 1 mitsumi 1.2 mb 5 1/4 floppy disk drive 1 sony srf-m30 digital am/fm stereo walkman the drive cost me $65, the keyboards were $40 each, and the sony radio cost $45. i will sell for the best offers. thank you. / / buchanan in `96! / / fear the goverment that fears your guns. \ \/ / without the 2nd amendment, we cannot guarantee ou \/ / r freedoms. aj008@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75899">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75899" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a pair of car speakers for sale. they are brand new, still in box and plastic wrap. i got them at highland's going-out-of-business sale just yesterday however they won't fit my car's rear deck because it's not the right size. so, i am trying to sale them here. infinity rs-6903 6x9 three-way freq. resp. 40-22k hz power capacity: 90 watts per channel sensitivity: 93 db spl/1w/1m impedance 4 ohms mouting depth 3" list price $200 stereo store $140-165 + tax mail order catalog price $149 + s/h my price $120 obo + shipping please e-mail me at fang@en.ecn.purdue.edu or call me at (317)743-1394 michael wen-cheng fang 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75900">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75900" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 tracy your monitor is on its way. mike damico 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75901">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75901" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 a slightly used (less than two months old) suprafaxmodem is for sale. it comes with latest rom 1.2h, communication software, fax software, original manuals, and the original registration card. here are some specs: model # : supfaxv32bis description : suprafaxmodem v.32bis type : internal data speed : 14,400/12,000/9600/7200/4800/2400/1200/300 bps data (upto 57000bps with v.42 data compression) protocols : bell 103/212a,ccit v.21/v.22/v.22bis/v.32/v.32bis/v.42/ : v.42bis, mnp 2-5, & mnp 10 fax : 14,400/12,000/9600/7200/4800/2400 bps send/receive fax : class 1 & 2 commnads : group iii compatible transmission: v.17,v.29,v.27ter other : non-volatile memory; autoanswer/autodial (tone or pulse); extended at commands and result codes; includes diagnostics, phone jacks, subscriptions to free online services. 5 year warranty. asking : $180 (neg.) + s/h if interested, please e-mail. thanks! 
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<instance id="misc.forsale75903">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75903" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 looking for people to buy brand new software packages including microsoft windows, harvard graphics, pagemaker, paradox, lotus, etc. at 20-25% off list price. e-mail immediately to "ergo@wam.umd.edu" with name, phone #, email address, and software names. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75906">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75906" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 wanted: color monitor >= 14" suitable for use on a macintosh centris 610. i am planning on purchasing one of these machines soon and don't want to have to pay full price for a new monitor when a used one will do me just as well. if you have one you'd like to part with, please email me with the specs and price. rsjoyce@eos.ncsu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75907">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75907" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i bought my hp48sx calculator a month ago, used once but put it back in the box. includes manual and i'm including about 7 high density disks packed with dozens if not hundreds of games and programs. all you need to do is buy the pc cable for around $20 bucks so you could use the software. $255 shipping included or best offer. thanx.l 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75908">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75908" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 non-smoking, normal law student needs furnished place to live in memphis this summer. i'll be working at a firm downtown and will have to pass the bar character examination, so you don't have to worry about your stuff being broken or stolen. call chris at (804)979-2519 or leave e-mail. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75912">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75912" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a vt200 and vt100 compatible terminal with 1200 external hyess modem amber screens 101 keyboard,cable make an offer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75913">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75913" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 gre test aids for sale cliffs gre preparation guide, (c). 1992 3 full length practive tests w/ answers and explanations also includes test-taking strategies. by the same people who do cliffs notes. ---- $5 gre economics test by the research and education association revised 1990 edition. includes 6 full length exams with detailed explanations and solutions to each question. 648 pages! ---- $10 practicing to take the gre economics test by ets. includes an official full-length gre economics test from 1985-1986 and aswers included but no explanations. ---- $4 practicing to take the gre general test-no. 8 by ets. includes three official gre general tests from 1989-1990 (w/ answers but no explanations) and one additional gre general test complete with explanations to answers. ---- $8 shipping is $1 extra. buy everything for $25 and i cover the shipping. | keith r. frederick | happiness is our moral purpose. | | (206)285-1576 | if you see dr. fu manchu, kill him! | | scalawag@carson.u.washington.edu | reason is our only absolute. | | i'm not a number, i'm a free man!|-------------------------------------| | cis: 73760,3521 uwid: 8722277 | ::: cornell here i come!!! ::: | |__________________________________|_____________________________________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75915">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75915" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a math coprocessor for a 286-16mhz. should be a 80287-10 or 12. i also have a 80387sx-16 for sale or trade. tnx- * 1st 1.10b #1439 * 1streader: on the cutting edge of software evolution. | pics online multiuser system (609)753-2540 hst 609-753-1549 (v32) | | massive file collection - over 45,000 files online - 250 newsgroups | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75917">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75917" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have an unopened cd called "bird-the original recordings of charlie parker" it has on it, among others: miles davis, dizzy gillespie, red rodney, thelonious monk, and lester young. i would be willing to sell it to the highest bidder, or else to trade it for another jazz cd that i would be interested in. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75918">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75918" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 we are representing some chinese tv manufacturers who want to wholesale their products to latin american countries. we are looking for brokers/agents who can help us. products include both color and black/white tvs from 11" to 24". if interested, please e-mail or fax to mr z ho at 713-926-7953 (usa) for more information or inquiries. good commission. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75919">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75919" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 one way ticket (return leg of roundtrip ticket) for female traveler san francisco ==> st. louis ==> philadelphia may 21, 1993 (friday) leaves sfo 10:25 am arrives phila. 8:43 pm .............$150 or best offer return e-mail or call 215/387-0203 (home) 215/898-8099 (office) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75923">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75923" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello, i have a motherboard and a case for sale as a package. both of them came from a compuadd computer i bought last august and am presently upgrading. here are the specs-- cyrix 486sl 25 mhz microprocessor chips and technology chipset (scatsx v2.3.6 slslc) 8 simm banks for a maximum of 32 megs of ram built-in floppy and hard drive controllers built-in ports--1 parallel, 2 serial (9 and 25 pin) built-in paradise svga controller with 1 meg of ram (windows drivers inc.) -can do up to 1024x768 @ 256 colors -based on the western digital wd90c31 chip math co-processor slot 3 16-bit expansion slots and 2 8-bit expansion slots low-profile desktop very nice grey color 150 watt power supply room for 2 floppies plus hd 3-button microsoft-compatible grey color matches case all original manuals and documentation, video drivers, etc. are included. you are probably wondering why i must sell the case with the motherboard. it is simply because the case is custom-made for this particular board and you would be hard-pressed to fit another mb in it. however, the case and this motherboard were made to go together and fit perfectly. as you can see, since this board includes drive controllers and a video controller, you can save some money by buying this unit and not a mb where you would need to get io cards, video card, and drive controllers its just a lot more convenient on the whole i would like to ask about $500 for this whole package. i think this is a fair price given the facts that it includes a video card and drive controllers/io ports. all you need to do is add drives, a monitor, ram, and a keyboard. also keep in mind that it isn't a generic board, but from compuadd. i also will entertain all serious offers. please email at jmu@acpub.duke.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75924">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75924" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: fujitsu 324meg scsi drive. $450 maxtor 338meg esdi drive. $425 maxtor 160meg esdi drive. $225 toshiba 106meg ide drive. $175 xt case & motherboard. $50 dtc 16-bit mfm 2hd 2fd controler. $30 all items are used, in full working condition, and have a warranty for one week unless otherwise specified. all prices are %100 negotiable, shipping not included. wanted: developers kit for sb 17" svga moniters (two of them). carl a. merritt <bromgrev@rahul.net> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75925">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75925" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 1) complete 80386dx25mhz system for sale svga card/w color tatung vga monitor 2s/1p 2 floppies (1.44 and 1.2) 230 watt power supply 1 meg ram installed 80 meg ide 14ms hard drive best offer... 2) bits and pieces a) ide controller card b) internal 2400 baud modem c) 80386dx25mhz cpu d) 3 megs simm memory e) standard vga card 3) panasonic kxp-1524 wide carriage 24 pin printer brand new condition comes with plenty 'o ribbons parallel and serial ports nice crisp output all items are in beautiful condition. all fully functional. willing to provide net references if needed. best offers on all items snag 'em. thanks for your time! ciaran foley cfoley@bonnie.uci.ics.edu office:714.830.3579 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75926">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75926" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 dj> subject: new aircraft tu-154m for leasing, set spare parts. category: offers to leasing >>>>headline: new aircraft tu-154m mr. director agabalaevich: btw, are these guys out of their [....] minds, or was our propaganda so effective that they believe some netters could actually buy such stuff and land in their driveway? too much soda pop, too quick... go look up tu 154m, it should be in most airliner hand-books. dj> ~~ sgt. d.j. morton environmental resource sciences hastings and prince edward regiment trent university peterborough, ontario k9j 7b8 canada dj> there are a few things wrong with the potential sale of this dj> aircraft: dj> there is starting to be a glut of new aircraft on the market dj> (airlines are taking delivery, then mothballing their new dj> planes). dj> unless the fuel efficiency is better than the airbus 320 or dj> boeing 767, this plane is not economically feasible for the dj> major players (airlines). unless the price is real cheap, and dj> you have an owner that doesn't care about fuel economy (saudi dj> family, maybe??) sales ought to be pretty glim. ummm... i'd be surprised if you couldn't find a gov't aid program to subsidize and/or underwrite the lease... that could make it quite an attractive arrangement... bizarre? yes. impossible? not really... ... life is like... an analogy! yeah! that's the ticket! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75928">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75928" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am in the market for a couple of intel 486 chips. please let me know if you have one (or more) for sale. i am interested in both sx and dx models, but they must be intel. email me at: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu mike bitz internet: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu research and development bitzm@dsuvax.dsu.edu dakota state university bitnet: s93020@sdnet.bitnet 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75930">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75930" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: one boss turbo overdrive pedal for guitar, bass, or keyboards--$35 or best offer. thanks!! respond to hw26 or call 268-4841. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75933">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75933" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: **************************************************************** 386-40 with vga color monitor, dual floppy, vga card with 1mb on board, joystick, mouse, 2 mb ram, no hard drive. for only $500! respond quickly! ***** orion auld ***** *----------------------------------------------* "we are only fabulous | if you're not part of the solution, | beasts, after all." | you're part of the precipitate. | -- john ashberry *----------------------------------------------* 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75934">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75934" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if anyone has joe venuti's record "fiddle on fire" and would like to sell it please contact me. richard j. brooks (el cerrito, ca) internet: rbrooks@eis.calstate.edu compuserve: 71121,3406 internet: 71121.3406@compuserve.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75936">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75936" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i hope you realize that for a cellular phone, you need to subscribe to a cellular carrier, and it usually takes at least one working day before the service is available to you. only then you can find out whether the phone is working. not true. dial 811 and listen to the recording. if you get it, then your phone was recognized by the network. you wouldn't be able to dial a real number yet (of course!) mark bramwell, ve3pzr located in sunny london, ontario internet: mark@ardsley.business.uwo.ca ip address: 129.100.29.33 packet: ve3pzr @ ve3gyq uwo phone: (519) 661-3714 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75937">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75937" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 looking for an amateur radio operator that needs a variable power linear amplifier for 2-30mhz. looks and works like new. runs off 12v for mobile use. input: 5-10 watts output: ~175 watts am, ~350 watts pep ssb. i need $150 out of it. if that's too much, i also have a tornado 100 that takes 5w in and 100/250w out for $100. reply with your callsign, address and phone number for verification of license. prices do not include shipping/packaging. darrek kay kayd@prism.cs.orst.edu (503)737-9410 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75938">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75938" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 trade your old pc for my new modem. modem comes with coupond good for travel to/from europe. 14.4 v.42bis modem modem features: mnp5 2-to-1 compression & error correction v.42bis 4-to-1 compression & error correction ccitt v.32bis compatible (14.4k bps) ccitt v.32 compatible (9.6k bps) ccitt v.22bis compatible (2.4k bps) at command set compatible compatible with ibm pc/xt/at/386's and compatibles bundled with communications software pc bus interface two rj11c connectors: phone and line e-mail: danj@holonet.net 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75939">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75939" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following videos for sale. all have been viewed once and are in good condition: star trek (tos) collector's edition all 79 episodes. (39 tapes) asking $800 for the lot. i've got 7 episodes left on *beta* for sale at us$8 each (neg.), or for trade 1-for-1 for movie on beta or a used cd; or, a package deal for $50 or whatever you care to propose in trade -- e.g., all for a set of good stereo headphones (e.g. sony v6 or v7), an apple iwii sheet feeder, a good used fm/cassette stereo "walkman" or a hotel coupon(s) for free stays fob new york city (guests coming!)). the remaining collection is as follows: 8 - charlie x 11 - dagger of the mind 12 - miri 17 - shore leave 20 - the alternative factor 29 - operation-annihilate! 33 - who mourns for adonais? numbers indicate episode numbering on the tape boxes, for those who are keeping track of what episodes they're missing in that manner. rsvp for summaries, if necessary. the tapes are all in excellent condition in the original packaging. all have been played at least once, but most have been played only once, and none have been played more than twice. running time: ~50 min. ea. (unedited, uncut store-bought originals unlike those in syndication; all have *incredible* beta hifi sound!) i also have the following sf and horror movies on beta as well; us$10 (negotiable) or trade (1-for-1 swap for movie on beta or a used cd): the bride (sting, jennifer beales) * buck rogers conquers the universe (buster crabbe, constance moore) rsvp for my larger beta movies/music trade list, or find it on misc.forsale! ps: for those of you who may wonder, beta is alive as a pro/hobbyist format ... there's life beyond the corner video store! (-; ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75940">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75940" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 nec multisync plus, model # jc-1501vma, 15", 960x720, $250 + shipping. price is frim. do not send me an emai if your offer is less than my thank you. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75942">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75942" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi! i have several computer related books for sale. they are all new, unused and hence in excellent condition. the subjects include programming languages (c, c++, lisp, prolog), operating systems (unix, dos), windows, x-windows, lan, ai, and expert systems. if you are interested, pls. contact me at: parikhma@ucunix.san.uc.edu -m. parikh 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75945">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75945" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following laserdisks are in used but "like-new" condition: category title price horror rabid grannies 20.00 "a blood-spattered tale of two little old ladies who open a surprise package from hell." clv side 2 cav 88 min. horror forbidden world 20.00 "subject 20 is half-human, and one of the researchers is the father." roger corman, prod. clv 77 min. horror horror planet 20.00 "an alien creature has been waiting for a million years to breed, and its time has come." clv 93 min. horror witchtrap 20.00 "...and in the upstairs shower, we have the sexy ms. ginger kowowski and this is where all the chillingly frightful fun comes to a head." clv 92 min. murder bikini island 20.00 "swimwear illustrated needs a cover girl and the competition is fierce, very fierce. clv 85 min. comedy hysterical 20.00 "it's a blend of timeless farce, contemporary satire, nonsensical sight gags and dead people singing and dancing." hudson brothers clv 90 min. comedy hollywood hot tubs 2 20.00 "valley girl, crystal, is back in another superheated frolic through those "hollywood hot tubs"." clv 100 min. comedy beverly hills brats 20.00 "scooter's in trouble now, his kidnappers don't take credit cards." martin sheen clv 90 min. comedy transylvania 6-5000 20.00 "the good citizens of transylvania invite you to this, the most frighteningly funny event of the year." ed begley jr., jeff goldblum clv 94 min. comedy meet the hollowheads 20.00 "makes the "married...with children" gang look sane! just say no to butt polish." clv 89 min. comedy don't tell mom the babysitter's dead 20.00 "no rules. no curfews. no nagging. no pulse. home alone times 5!" christina applegate clv 105 min. animated popeye at sea 20.00 "9 hilarious cartoon adventures on the high seas." clv 60 min. color musical babes in toyland 20.00 disney re-make of the classic with annette, tommy sands, ray bolger, and ed wynn. clv 105 min. action american angels - baptism of blood 20.00 "meet the first ladies of wrestling!" clv 99 min. making of... runaway train/52 pickup 20.00 "all of the behind the scenes action displayed for your pleasure." jon voigt ann-margret cav 43 min. drama i posed for playboy 20.00 "when fantasy meets reality!" lynda carter clv 98 min. shipping costs of $5.00 per disk ($3.00/disk for 3 disks or more) will be added to the total. 10% off of orders of 5 or more titles. no cods. mo or checks accepted in advance payment. larry mcelhiney (408) 426-5858 x358 mack@mchome.santa-cruz.ca.us 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75946">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75946" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 discounts! please take $2.00 off each item over $10.00 $1.00 off each item over $ 5.00 here is the list of magazines, including asking price: strategy & tactics magazine (all include unpunched games): new (52 & 79-90 as mailed with games and all inclusions.) issue: title: asking: 52 oil war - american intervention in the persian gulf 35.00 79 berlin '85 - the enemy at the gates 20.00 81 tito - partisan army yugoslavia, 1941-45 20.00 83 kaiser's battle - german offensive march, 1918 20.00 84 operation grenade - rhineland feb 23-mar 5, 1945 20.00 89 sicily - the race to messina jul 10-aug 17, 1943 20.00 90 the battle of monmouth - colonies take offensive 1778 20.00 ----------end of an era --------------------------------------------- new (113-127 as mailed with games and all inclusions in envelope.) issue: title: asking: 113 the battle of abensberg (magazine only) 15.00 115 kanev - russian paratroops 15.00 116 manchu - the taiping rebellion 15.00 117 north german plain - modern germany 15.00 118 the tigers are burning - camp. in the ukraine '43-44 15.00 120 nicararagua 15.00 122 pegasus bridge - the beginning of d-day 15.00 123 campaigns in the valley 15.00 124 fortress stalingrad - russian winter offensive '42-43 15.00 125 the far seas - german cruiser operations wwii 15.00 126 beirut 1982 - arab stalingrad 15.00 127 rush for glory - war with mexico 1846-47 15.00 the ah general magazine: (many other articles included in each issue) issue title asking vol. # 7-80 crescendo of doom 8.00 17/2 11-80 fortress europa 8.00 17/4 1-81 circus maximus 8.00 17/5 3-81 stalingra 8.00 17/6 5-81 bismark, squad leader clinic 8.00 18/1 campaign magazine: (many other articles included in each issue) issue title asking 97 crescendo of doom 8.00 101 cross of iron 8.00 102 counterstroke at inchon 8.00 104 squad leader variant 8.00 106 gdw's 1941 8.00 108 battle for leyte gulf 8.00 all magazine prices include postage. all issues are in new or like-new games and books: yaquinto publications, inc.: attack of the mutants - introductory game $ 5.00 (unpunched, new.) the complete book of wargames (out of print) $30.00 author: jon freeman (part 1 introduction 75 pages - including ch. 4 kassala: an introductory wargame) (complete information on over 150 wargames as of 1980) [hardcover, 285 pages, large format] shipping extra on books and games. prefer money orders for payment, i'll allow personal checks to clear before larry mcelhiney 1385 7th avenue #10 santa cruz, ca 95062 (408)426-5858 x 358 (w) (408)475-8027 (h) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75950">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75950" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if you are interested in (any of) the following, please contact me: email mbeck@vtssi.vt.edu phone (703)552-4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street #5500e blacksburg, virginia 24060 ~~~~~~~~~~for sale as of 12am 4/16/93~~~~~~~~~~ 1 panasonic af x8 ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca. 3 years old, but only used very lightly date/time stamp counter/memory rec review back light auto/manual focus built in microphone/jack for external microphone comes with: sturdy aluminum/hardplastic carrying case (20" long x 13" wide x 6" high) shoulder strap power adaptor/battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf/vhf ---> cable adaptor audio/video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions (measured around outmost features) 15" long x 4" wide x 8" high (w/ handle) asking price: $best offer so far $350, but looking for more ($700 new price) 1 amiga 3000ux 25mhz, unix compatible machine w/100 meg hard drive, 4 meg ram, no monitor, keyboard (esc and ~ keys broken) asking price: $1500 obo. 1 hewlett packard thinkjet printer w/ hp-ib interface like new in original box asking price: $250 obo. sold!! at&t portable cellular phone, model 3730 asking price: $sold for $350 (listed at $600 new) sold!! compaq lte/286 laptop - contact for details best offer so far $sold for $475 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75951">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75951" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the title says it all...if you have some cheap used gameboy or tg-16 (2 player or more) games, please email me all offers... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75953">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75953" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes. 2 heads, works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr. paid $300 years ago, will sell for $125 delivered obo. radio shack stereo amp. 2 inputs, tone, and left and right volume. speakers not included. compact 12w unit for $20 plus shipping. great for amiga stereo output or soundblaster output. if you are interested in either of the above mail me, keith, at radley@gibbs.oit.unc.edu or call me at 919-968-7779. i did have these sold but both deals fell thru so if you are still interested in either email or call me. _ // major: computer science /<eith radley \\// minor: english radley@gibbs.oit.unc.edu \/ computer: amiga 3000 university of north carolina 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75958">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75958" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: nec turbografx-16 video game system. package includes: * base unit: with power supply, tv hookups, controller, and the games "keith courage in alpha zones" and "ordyne". * one extra controller * turbotap: let's you hook up as many as 5 controllers to the tg16. * all original packaging, manuals, etc. for the above items. * the games tv sports football, alien crush, splatterhouse, and takin' it to the hoop. current market price for the above system is approximately $130. asking price is $75. system was purchased in january of this year, and has seen little use since then. if interested, contact me via one of the methods in my signature file! || chris freemesser, rit cpet (( visit rochester, new york: || ||"where money is the #1 priority" )) home of the world's largest || || usenet: clf3678@ultb.rit.edu (( collection of potholes! || || genie: c.freemesser )) || 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75960">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75960" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have following softwares for sale: new items (never opened): 1. lucid 3-d, three dimensional spreadsheet: with pull-down menus, on-line help, up to 8 pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail, 3-d capability, compatible with lotus 1-2-3, etc. $15 including shipping (manual, 5.25" disks) 2. turbo pascal express with 250 ready-to-run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster, more powerful, and easier to use. 2 5.25" disks and manual $15 (including shipping) 3. dr. halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program - it's a complete page composition and presentation graphics package. automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing. true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints. 3 5.25" disks and manual $12 (including shipping) 4. key form designer plus software for making professional business forms. 3.5" disks and manual $25 plus shipping like-new items (package is opened but not registered): 1. jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f-23 as well as f-14, f-16, f/a-18, and f-22. 3.25" disks and manuals $30 plus shipping obo 2. nighthwak f-117a stealth fighter 2.0 the definitive simulation of america's radar-elusive jet. sensational sound, nine world's "hot spots": cuba, north korea, the kuwaiti t theatre of operations, central europe, the north cape, libya, the persian gul f, vietnam and the middle east. awesome missions to challenge you. 5.25" disks and manual $35 plus shipping obo 3. grammatik iv - $20 plus shipping 4. quattro pro 1.0 - make an offer 5. gem chart, graphics, word, publisher, ... v.3.0 - make an offer. all items above are for ibm/compatible systems. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75961">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75961" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 item: sony es-cdpx229* condition: excellent age: 1 year old price: $300 *includes tos.link item: sony cdp 770 condition: excellent age: 2.5 years old price: $250 everything comes with the original packaging and manuals. these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape. if you are interested, or need any additional information, please e-mail (pc1o@andrew.cmu.edu) or call me at home. (412) 882-6425 p.s. yes, these are for sale again. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75962">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75962" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following genesis/megadrive games for sale or trade for other genesis/md (or snes games). all games will work with both us and uk machines (50 or 60hz) except where stated and all are boxed with d&d warriors of the eternal sun death duel chakan the forever man wonder boy in monster land a.sennas super monaco gp 2 (50hz only) ill accept us$ or uk sterling. make me an offer! |onathan phone: +44 524 65201 x3793 address:department of computing '-'________ fax: +44 524 381707 lancaster university e-mail: jonathan@comp.lancs.ac.uk lancaster, lancs., u.k. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75965">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75965" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 *** 10 month old polk system for sale *** excellent condition 10 month old (proof available) polk monitor 4.6 bookshelf speakers are being offered for sale. the are excellent, and sound great. i am going for a higher model. so i need to sell these speakers. i paid $250 for the pair of bookshelf speakers. i am willing to consider the best offer. send me your offers. e-mail: suraj@cs.jhu.edu. also have excellent condition luxman receiver r-351 and onkyo tape deck ta-rw404 for sale. both are in excellent condition and just 10 months old. makes an excellent system. paid $950 for receiver, tape deck and speakers 10 months back, will consider the best offer. each piece will be sold seperately if wanted. e-mail best offer to suraj@cs.jhu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75966">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75966" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 considering the conversation about uhc on the net, i wouldn't say $1k is a good deal -- considering the package is inflated in price to start with larry snyder larry@gator.rn.com what problems have you had with uhc? i have been using their os for 2 years and have had very few problems. eddie d. tuggle, etuggle@dora.auc.trw.com | "there is nothing either good or trw denver operations | bad, but thinking makes it so." 16201 centretech pky / aurora, co 80011 | -- shakespeare voice: 303.360.4001 fax: 303.360.4133 | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75967">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75967" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 since i have some free time while looking for a job i thought i would offer linux on disk and tape for those who need it. note: i am offering this service for experienced users who require no support. simply put i am just a disk shuffler. if you think you will need support i highly recommend softlanding linux system (sls) directly. they provide an excellent product at a decent price with support. i am the lazy mans service, for those who don't want to spend 4 hours on the modem and 2 hours shuffling floppies. and those who don't need sls support and opt to go it alone. what you get... each disk is $1.50(5.25) $1.75(3.5) (14 disk minimum). a minimal system : 4 disks 6.00/7.00 b base system extras : 7 disks 10.50/12.25 c compilers : 3 disks 4.50/5.25 d documentation : 2 disks 3.00/3.50 s source, misc. : 1 disk 1.50/1.75 t tex : 3 disks 4.50/5.25 x x-windows : 8 disks 12.00/14.00 entire set %5 discount: 40.00/46.50 or the entire set on qc-40 tape for 40.00 send check or money order stephen balbach 5437 enberend terrace columbia, md 21045 send e-mail so i can have it ready sooner -> stephen@access.digex.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75968">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75968" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 here is a list of items for the 3b1 which i am selling: list deleted.......... pps: priam d519 150m hard drives (exactly same as maxtor 2190, but faster) does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor 2190?? i have a 2190 that came off of a vs2000 that i would like to use on a pc. thanks in advance...colin. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75969">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75969" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am selling my macintosh classic and stylewriter 1 to the highest bidder. you can reach me at 415 626-5869 (san francisco)), or via email at forsythe@leland.stanford.edu. -david goldberger 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75970">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75970" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following is no longer for sale, it has been sold. -textronics type 611 storage display (screen dim. 6.5"x8.5) -textronics tm503 base with three pg502 250mhz pulse generators. -textronics 6289a adj. dc power supply 0-40volts 0-1.5 amps -keithley instruments picoammeter -(3) analogic 3 1/2 digit panal mount voltmeters still for sale, -hewlett packard 180a oscilloscope with 180aa four channel 50 mhz vertical amplifier and 1822a time base and delay generator. best offer over $300 -(1) analogic 4 1/2 digit panal mount voltmeter, powered by 5 vdc, model an2574 1x3p, same dimensions as above, ----$55 +shipping---- reasonable offers will be accepted. please respond by e-mail or phone. e-mail halle@rpi.edu phone (518)276-7382 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75972">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75972" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 "chimney sweep" number 12/i (5-1/2 to 6-1/2"), closed edition, 3 or 4 line (purchased in west germany in 1970) (retail $270) sell $120 (s&h extra) i have a picture of it if you want to see first; in excellent shape, no chips or cracks). great idea for mother's day. this is a great buy. interested? please e-mail or call (415) 926-2664 wk or (408) 248-0411 eves. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75975">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75975" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 4 month old sega genesis, barely used, one controller, in original box, with sonics 1 and 2. $130 gets the whole bundle shipped to you. turns out they're not as addictive when they're yours. anyway, mail me if you're interested in this marvel of modern technology. well, i've been informed that the price on the whole thing i'm selling is now less than the price i'm selling it for. that will teach me to wait that long before getting rid of electronic equipment. nevermind, everyone, i'm keeping the thing. andrew boyko aboyko@dixie.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75977">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75977" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale kfc svga monitor 1024x768 .28dp non-interlaced 14" screen, still under warranty! $ 295.00 or best offer! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75978">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75978" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have this used equipment for sale, everything is negotiable! 1200 baud compuadd internal modem, all docs and software $ 25.00 sco unix v3.2.2 all disks and docs (has uucp/all utils) $150.00 old 1.2mb floppy drive, functional, out of an old 286. $ 20.00 dead st1196 80mb rll drive, don't know whats wrong with it. $ 20.00 old joystick, don't remember the brand name $ 10.00 old boat anchor cga monitor with full length cga card $ 20.00 serial card 25 pin $ 10.00 test drive iii accolade $ 20.00 all prices neg +shipping! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75980">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75980" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 misc. p2/2 stuff! cards: (micro channel) (6) arcnet, coax, 83x9648. net cards. (3) serial adapter. p/n: 90x8459 (2) parallel adapters. p/n: 72x6753 (2) coprocessor?? p/n: 83x7488 (2) memory expansion option. p/n: 90x9507 expanded memory adapter w/2mb. p/n: 61x6752 expanded memory adapter, 0k, p/n: 90x8799 alloy ftc500/mca tape adapter. drives: (hard & floppy) 30 mb hdd, p/n: 90x9403 model wd-336r 60 mb hdd, p/n: 6128282, model wd-387t 1.44 fdd, p/n: 15f7503, ec #a79541 1.44 fdd, p/n: 15f7503, ec #88086 this is what i have aquired over the past few years in ps/2 components... i have posted the part #'s, so if you have any questions as to what a component is, you can call ibm and find out! (i have no idea!!!) make me an offer! trades welcome! dan scherer (206) 453-5215 voice (206) 996-8350 pager [] seanews [] seattle public access usenet news + mail [] +1 206 747 news [] xanadu@seanews.akita.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75984">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75984" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 boy oh boy, have i got a deal for you !!!!!!!!! how does this sound....... i have decided to sell all of this as a package deal, (unless someone really wants something seperate, then i'm open to that as well)..... kramer striker 100st electric guitar dark metallic blue... floyd rose tremlo... tuning lockers at the nut... great action, all-around great guitar!! -plus- korg pme40x professional modular effects pedal board has flanger, chorus, and graphic equilizer... has a unique bonus...you can buy seperate pedal "boxes" that sort of slide into any of the 4 existing slots.. mono input, stereo output... perfect for the electric or acoustic guitars!!! -plus- dod american metal distortion pedal durable, great sounding pedal... goes great with the korg pedal board!! there you have it! everything you need for a great sound!!! yours as a package deal for only........$300 o.b.o.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! respond by email to dietrijj@mentor.cc.purdue.edu or by phone at (317) 495-4426 and ask for jason. thanks in advance!!! -jason dietrich 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75985">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75985" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 posting this for a friend sunnyvale, california 1982 porsche 928 gts package leather interior european handling package cruise control 88,000k miles new paint immaculate in every way ********** delivery possible to destination with deposit ******** $10,000 firm low book is 11,500 high book is 16,000 phone (408) 296-4444 frank rosqui as new this vehicle was $74,000 this posting does not reflect the opinions of my employer 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75986">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75986" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 1987 ariens riding lawn mower this mower is in perfect condition and contains the following features: - electric start - 26 inch cut - double rear baggers - new battery - new engine (one year old) - inflatable tires (gives nice ride) - cushioned seat (gives nice ride) i am moving into a house that has a small area of grass to cut and does not require such large mower. the engine was replaced, not rebuilt, last year due to some faulty work done by a lawn mower repair shop. price: $600.00 phone: 908-582-7028 (leave message) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75987">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75987" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 here's the updated list of the stuff i still have for sale. also, feel free to make an offer. i'm asking $15 per board. currently known electronic mother boards from old arcade games: game name condition manufacturer -1- tenyard fight ? iren tenyard fight bad(internal short) iren kangaroo ? sun electronics? -2- mr.do okay,but has interference ? tip top ? sega bank panic ? sega sanritsu ? sega *radar scope okay nintendo? -3- poseidon ? taito ninjakun bad(needs capacitor&crystal) ? jass rack ? jamma double dribble ? -6- zoar okay ? super trivia bad (got fried) greyhound electronics -9- slither has error message century ii corp. -10- music trivia ? jaleco samurai fore groud char. disapear taito poseidon okay taito -11- ant eater ? tago electronics up n down buzzing sound ? tutankham bad konami pro wrestling okay video trivia ? grayhound asteron belt ? sega unknown boards sega (1) konami (1) pacific novelty manufacturing inc (9) (if anyone has the rom numbers for these boards, please tell me) 1 absolutely unknown board --misc stuff-- somekind of powersupply(similar to atary audio reg.) ? ram card ? midway midway patter board z-80 sync buss controller-285 (2) pacman filters (16) ? midway 50pin scsi cable(2) (both ends are female) | alex fagundes - proud owner of a 76 maverick :) and another | | microfsh@iastate.edu - believer that amiga rules | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75989">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75989" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a set of four 235-60-r14 big o tires that i had on my 1988 thunder bird. we bought them and then traided the car in. they would not give me anything for them so i had them taken off. we drove about 2,000 miles on them. they are 40,000 mile tires. they are sporty looking low-profile, and take corners realy well. if you are interested please contact me at (208)384- 9236 or dusmadso@idbsu.idbsu.edu i am in idaho. usa 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75991">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75991" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 * for sale - jazz compact discs * i have the following cds for sale, they are all in mint condition and are fairly hard to find. they are all on the savoy label and put out by dennon (dennon bought the rights to savoy and released these disks) i would like to sell them all in one package deal but i will consider individual orders. these are the titles and artists: telefunken blues milt jackson, kenny clarke, percy heath frank morgan, frank wess, walter benton jazz concert west coast the bopland boys opus de jazz vol-2 john rae, steve kuhn, bobby jaspar, jake hannah, john neves patterns of jazz cecil payne, kenny dorham, duke jordan, tommy potter, art taylor penthouse serenade erroll garner footloose paul bley the imortal lester young lester young, count basie great britain's marian mcpartland, george shearing howard mcghee and milt jackson self titled i just love jazz piano hampton hawes, john mehegan, herbie nichols, paul smith art pepper & sonny reid self titled opus de blues frank wess, thad jones, curtis fuller charlie fowlkes, hank jones, eddie jones, gus johnson jazz is busting out all over too many names to list opus in swing frank wess, kenny burrell freddie green, eddie jones, kenny clarke jackson's ville milt jackson, lucky thompson, hank jones wendell marshall, kenny clarke i will take any reasonable offer on the package of the 15 discs as well as offers on individual discs. please e-mail me with a response or call (807) 344-0010 $_ /|$derek j.p. serianni $ e-mail : djserian@flash.lakeheadu.ca $ $\'o.o' $sociologist $ it's 106 miles to chicago,we've got a full tank$ $=(___)=$lakehead university $ of gas, half a pack of cigarettes,it's dark,and$ $ u $thunder bay, ontario$ we're wearing sunglasses. -elwood blues $ 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75993">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75993" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 [stuff deleted] my company maintains a 20,000+ mailing list which is regularly rented for one time use by the major software companies. the method you are using to "seed" your junk mail, isn't really effective. bulk mailers regulary either send their databases to be "cleaned" by the ncoa, which if you've moved recently, will revert back to the original "xxx cool", and in large mailings, there will likely be a dupe of you, and they'll pick the first, and use the others for future mailings. btw, our list is currently one of the hottest lists for actual buyers of a ms windows utility product in the $100 range, and is available through direct media in ct., at $0.10 per name. please let your direct mail marketing rep. know about this.. thanks. it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products. in addition to improper etiquette, this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail. am i correct in assuming this is improper, and if so, what can be done to penalize such an improper use? dale thompson 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75994">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75994" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 1976 montreal olympics philatelic souvenirs: 1. color-illustrated booklet in french/english containing all stamps issued for the games (mint never hinged) in slipcase, over $6.00 face value in stamps. $13.00 + $2.00 insured first class mailing 2. unusual "desk pad holder" with olympic rings on the cover and the montreal stadium inside. all the canadian olympic stamps are displayed on the "cover" under heavy plastic. again, over $6.00 face value. $11.00 + $2.50 insured first class mailing. order both for $22 including insured delivery 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75995">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75995" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 cpm computers: 1. model ampro a13001 rev a, with or without 2 720k 5 1/4" floppy drives and system disks. z80 processor. 2. unknown brand. w/miniscribe model 1006 hard drive. 1/2 height 8" shugart model 810 floppy drive. keyboard. system disks. also: 2 - 8" shugart model 801 floppy drives. also: commodore 64 computer, 1541 disk drive. will sell in whole or in parts. buyer pays shipping. to make offers, either email beers@cs.buffalo.edu or call (716) 741-9272, and ask for jonathan. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75996">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75996" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'd offer $150 for your scanner, shipping at your expense, payment to be sent by personal check within 24 hours after receipt of goods -- or if you live nearby and can deliver, payment in cash with 24 hour advance notice so i can go to the bank. if sent by mail, i reserve the right to return it at my expense if when i check it out i find it to be defective in some btw, why would you sell such a fine scanner? did you replace it with some other instrument or find it not to be satisfactory in some way? mark thorson 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale75998">
<answer instance="misc.forsale75998" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 date: 15 apr 1993 16:32:05 gmt from: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu [advertises his printing business] oh, dear. let me be the first on my block. you have just violated one of the major shibboleths of the usenet groups: nit: is he unable to type the first 'h' in this word? ;-) you're not supposed to use a newsgroup to plug your own commercial enterprise (of _any_ kind; people frequently get flamed for announcing they've got a new book out.) i don't know whether this is an official usenet rule or just a long- standing custom, and it doesn't make much difference from a practical point of view. as a matter of fact d.j., it does make a difference. almost a half million new users joined the internet last year, many of them are commercial businesses. the ban on commercial use of internet is no more. one should have the breeding not to post commercial material on an account provided by ones employer or school, unless the provider of such account gives permission. (ha!) those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no "administrator" to guide(?) us. jack previdi veni, vidi, fece! p00020@psilink.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76001">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76001" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 1983 nissan sentra o two door hatchback o red o am/fm cassette o lots of new parts, well maintained o very clean, inside and out o looks and runs great o $2000/bo bob or tracy at 510-540-8795 (please do not respond to this account) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76003">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76003" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 san mateo duplex houses for sale: west side location, alameda and hwy 92. large lot 55x140. nice quiet location, no front neighbor, space for pool or jacuzzi. spacious rooms, cozy living room with fireplace. only minutes from highways 280 and 92 and 101. excellent schools, shopping and transportation nearby. unit one: " remodeled " 2100 sq foot 3 bedrooms 2 baths large master suite den/study eat in kitchen very large backyard fenced backyard hardwood floor wall to wall carpet marbel/tile/vinyl 2 car garage car port washer and dryer hook up living room dinning combo totally remodeled unit two: " brand new construction " 645 sq foot 1 bedroom 1 bath fire place dinning room private yard private entry detached unit washer & dryer living room barbeque patio all separet utilities from the city price $468,500 ( by owner ) call medi amadi at 510-601-1525 eves 510-823-3366 days 2 baths 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76005">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76005" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 wanted: contact: (408)721-3702 jamesl@galaxy.nsc.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76009">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76009" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 dear fellow usenet users: i would like to give a formal apology for posting an advertisement about my printing business. i did not intend this to be an advertisement, but rather an offer for people on the usenet, many of whom use printing on a regular basis. i was not aware that this is not "legal" on the usenet. i am only trying to put myself through college. for those of you who requested information, i will write to you privately. for those of you who are having fun flooding my mailbox, i think you can grow up. to offer advice is one thing, but to use profanity toward me is another. thank you, marc me9574@albnyvms.bitnet 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76011">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76011" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 box, manual, phonecord $25 + shipping 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76013">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76013" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 this is yet for a friend again. ems freq. shifter. (the machine that made those 3-d swirling guitar effects way back in the 70's.) spacial panner with harmonic shifting. very rare - a collectors item. this is the last unit ems ever made. rack mountable. mono in, up/down signals out with seperate pan out and sine/unsine voltage outs. vco input too to control lfo. if interested contact kevin before 9 pm pst (california) at 818-362-7883 and make an offer. do not reply to this account. have a nice day | h e \ y b e r |/ e n [ xorcist@cyberden.sf.ca.us ] the cyberden - public access waffle usenet system - 415/472-5527 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76015">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76015" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if you are interested in (any of) the following, please contact me: email mbeck@vtssi.vt.edu phone (703)552-4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street #5500e blacksburg, virginia 24060 ~~~~~~~~~~for sale as of 12am 4/16/93~~~~~~~~~~ 1 panasonic af x8 ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca. 3 years old, but only used very lightly date/time stamp counter/memory rec review back light auto/manual focus built in microphone/jack for external microphone comes with: sturdy aluminum/hardplastic carrying case (20" long x 13" wide x 6" high) shoulder strap power adaptor/battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf/vhf ---> cable adaptor audio/video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions (measured around outmost features) 15" long x 4" wide x 8" high (w/ handle) asking price: $best offer ($700 new price) 1 amiga 3000ux 25mhz, unix compatible machine w/100 meg hard drive, 4 meg ram, no monitor, keyboard (esc and ~ keys broken) asking price: $1500 obo. mult. proteon p1390 token ring cards sold!! at&t portable cellular phone, model 3730 asking price: $sold for $350 (listed at $600 new) sold!! compaq lte/286 laptop - contact for details best offer so far $sold for $475 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76018">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76018" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following program on cd rom forsale: toolwork mpc encyclopedia on cd-rom - brand new - shrink-wrapped asking : $50 / obo send reply to : sam@ocf.berkeley.edu thank you 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76019">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76019" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello everyone, i have a casio tv-470 lcd color television for sale. it is in mint condition. retail is $199 but i'm looking to get about 1/2 of that for it, tops. highest bidder in a week gets it, assuming the highest bidder is at least $60. tv comes with black case and uses 4 aa batteries. they also sell ac adaptor. it has external jack for phones and external antenna, etc. the picture is very good and it has electronic tuning so you don't have to screw with tuning a picture in, etc. i have the box and all documentation. this has seen less than 3 hours use as i have all but sworn off tv. best regards jack waters ii 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76020">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76020" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a quantum prodrive lps 40 mb scsi hard drive for sale. it came with my maciisi and was replaced by a larger hard drive. in great working condition. fast and quiet. never had a problem. asking $100+cod shipping or reasonable offer. also for sale with the drive: brand new mounting bracket for macii or macse. it also includes scsi data and power cable. $10 with the hd. please reply with email or call (217)337-5710 and leave message. ding-kai chen dcg6759@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu uiuc.classifieds uiuc.classifieds.computer misc.forsale misc.forsale.computer misc.forsale.computer.mac misc.forsale.computer.other misc.forsale.computer.pc-clone 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76023">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76023" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 mitsbishi laptop (mp 286l) -286/12 (12,8,6 mhz switchable) -2m ram installed -backlit cga (ext. cga, mga) -20m 3.5"hh hdd/1.44m 3.5" fdd -2 com/1 lpt ports -complete manual set -built like a tank -excellent cosmetic cond. -dark gray -used very lightly problems: (1)hdd stops working. (2)lcd sometimes doesn't work (ext. cag/mga works). best offer. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76025">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76025" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i just won an ibm wheelwriter 6 typewriter in a raffle here on campus. since i have a nice computer, and really need the cash, i'm putting it up for sale. i have an offer from a local reseller for $250. best offer above that plus shipping. ...brian northwestern university - economics & international studies b-olson@nwu.edu brian david olson bdolson@casbah.acns.nwu.edu bdolson@cica.es bdolson@merle.acns.nwu.edu bdolson@sevaxu.cica.es 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76026">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76026" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 features include: detachable face, 30x4 watt amplifier, infra-red remote, 8 times oversampling 1 bit dac, supertuner iv (18fm and 6am presets), best station memory cd changer controller, loud switch, clock all original packaging, asking $450.00 (or best offer) this cd reciever is a very nice radio, great condition, the remote comes in very handy (you wouldn't think it would), top of the line cd reciever interested! send email to brion sohn at (easu351@orion.oac.uci.edu) any resonable offers will be considered ******latest offer $400.00 (including shipping)********* 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76027">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76027" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 four tickets available for the paul mccartney concert at the alamo dome in san antonio, tx on may 29th... ground floor seats. will sell all four, or in pairs: $100 each. e-mail: dennisod@itx.isc.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76028">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76028" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a pair of akg 340 headphones for sale. they are an electrostatic dyanmic headphone; a dynamic element for the bottom end and an electrostatic for the high end. they are very comfortable and sound very nice. they are in like new condition. i would like $220cdn for the pair. brett maraldo -------- unit 36 research --------- "alien technology today" bmaraldo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca {uunet!clyde!utai}!watserv1!bmaraldo 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76029">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76029" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have 5 full reels of ampex 456 2" recording tape. this tape was used once at 15 ips and carefully stored. all reel include an ampex tape band. the tape has not been bulk erased to my knowledge. the history of the tape in know and available upon request. jmar in toronto sells new 2" 456 for $260+tax (canadian) i would like $100cdn/reel which will include brett maraldo - plexus productions ps. the reels are 2500' long; standard thickness. -------- unit 36 research --------- "alien technology today" bmaraldo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca {uunet!clyde!utai}!watserv1!bmaraldo 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76030">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76030" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: pen-based electronic organizer -- brand-new sharp wizard oz-9600 (with pc link software and cable) -15 ounces, measures 7"x4"x1" (fits in most pockets) -256k ram, 125k available to user -pen/touch-screen input for pointing and drawing -keyboard big enough to touch-type on -320x240 screen -windows/pop-up menus -excellent scheduler with alarms -3 telephone directories -3 user-configurable databases -full word-processor with formatting -drawing utility -to-do list -clock/calendar -terminal emulatorw/ dialing directory -directory/filing system -serial port/infrared port/ic card slot -uses 4 aaa batteries (about 3 months of daily use) -all manuals organizer link ii -software and cable for exchanging data between wizard and a pc $480 or best offer for both. i'll pay shipping. steven m friedman horizon institute for policy solutions mail path: smf7s@virginia.bitnet voice path: (804) 295 0235 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76032">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76032" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a hallicrafters s120 sw radio for sale. worked the last time i tried it out. make offer. -- michael p. deignan / sex is hereditary. if your -- domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com / parents never had it, chances -- at&tnet: +1 401 273 4669 / are you won't either... -- telebit: +1 401 455 0347 / 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76033">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76033" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 thank you all for requesting my list and thank you again if you purchased vinyl from me. lotsa more vinyl leftover for sale. vinyl looking for a new home. please buy some (more) so i can stop running this ad. bunches of 12" vinyl records for sale including a metal acetate!!! no not heavy metal music) but em all and get amazing deal... email me for big list and details. (mass, usa) arthur_noguerola@vos.stratus.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76035">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76035" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 would like to purchase a trombone for a 9 year old because "this really really want i want to play daddy i'll practice everyday and i'll even keep my room really clean." well he must really mean it. would like to find a used one. please e-mail me at schuweiler@fnal.gov greg schuweiler schuweiler@fnal.gov i've got a used one for sale. i used it in high school and just don't have the occasion to get it out and play it anymore. email me and we can work out something on it. i can't get email to you for some reason. david-- david b. snyder logicon technical services inc. dsnyder@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil wright-patterson air force base 513-255-5165 dayton, ohio usa it is said that god doesn't subtract from ones' time on earth, those hours spent flying. 1946 cessna 140 n76234 "the lady in waiting" owner/operator opinions expressed are my own and not those of logicon or the usaf. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76037">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76037" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following games for sale or trade for other snes (or genesis/megadrive games): (all have instructions and box except where stated) sfc: mickeys magical quest (no instructions) a.suzukis super grandprix legend of the mystical ninja uk snes: out of this world / another world super soccer us snes: krustys fun house irem skins golf super tennis (currently under offer) i will sell for us$ for uk pounds. |onathan phone: +44 524 65201 x3793 address:department of computing '-'________ fax: +44 524 381707 lancaster university e-mail: jonathan@comp.lancs.ac.uk lancaster, lancs., u.k. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76039">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76039" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 gateway telepath 9600/9600 fax/modem for gateway computer with crosstalk, winfax pro 2.01 for windows never used. $170 shipped ($195 from gateway) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76040">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76040" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 |> > ms dos 6.0 upgrade for sale best offer over $45 |> > (opened, unregistered) |> gee, my copy of pc magazine states that the upgrade is retailing for $49.99... egghead, across the street, sells it for $47.49 and i'm going that way after work :-> compusa has it for 38.xx, in boston. i will sell it for $33 including shipping... walter g. seefeld | by the dawn's early light, 940 n. jackson st. #1a | by all i know is right, starkville, ms 39759 | we're going to reap what we have sown. n5qxr | -jackson brown 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76043">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76043" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: 1990 pontiac grand prix se white, white rims, gray interior. 58k miles (mostly highway), 3.8 litre v6 multi-port fuel-injected engine, 5 speed manual transmission. options include: a/c, rear defogger, power steering, power brakes, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power glass moonroof with sunshade, power seat/recliner (driver's), power seat/comfort/lumbar/headrest (both), am/fm cassette stero, electronic monitor/service system with graphic compass, stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel, remote-keyless entry, and others. asking $11,500. the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot. it has been garaged and pampered. it gets an average of 27.5 mpg highway, sometimes better; city is around 19-23 mpg, depending on how it is driven. selling because of baby coming soon. need 4-door family car. will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus, mercury sable, or 4-door pontiac grand am or similar american contact: mike at home: (508) 881-6312 work: (508) 490-6963, or michaelq@tlaloc.sw.stratus.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76045">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76045" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a used sony d-808k cardiscman for sale. i bought it new on june 16, 1992. it still has the one-year warranty intact. specifications: sony's best car discman perfect condition 8x oversampling 1-bit d/a converter 3-beam laser pickup dual color display dsp sound processing (bass boost and dds modes) w/ 3 levels of effect 2-way repeat hold mode can also run on just 2 aa batteries 30 track programming w/ repeat random play w/ delete fused cigarette lighter adapter (could save the player if something goes wrong accesories: headphone plug & line-out jack sony mdr-34 headphones ac power adapter patch cord for home use automobile mouting plate car conecting pack remote control(great for home use) carrying case extra fuses this unit is great to use in any car. can be moved easily between vehicles. works well in home or car. just need cigaraette lighter/outlet and a cassette i have everything that it came with manuals, packaging, receipts etc. the unit is in perfect condition with normal well taken care of use. extremely versatile and manuverable unit that can be used anywhere. i am asking $250 for the system and extras. please e-mail if interested. brent wagner wagnerbm@sage.cc.purdue.edu (317) 495-4471 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76046">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76046" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 article 10886 of alt.radio.scanner: path: usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.freenet.edu!aj008 newsgroups: alt.radio.scanner organization: case western reserve university, cleveland, ohio (usa) lines: 26 message-id: <1r16oo$3du@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> nntp-posting-host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu i have a realistic pro-2024 scanner for sale.here is a small desc ription: 60 programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage: 30-50mhz 118-174mhz 380-512mhz it originally cost $200, but i will sell for $150. thank you. / / buchanan in `96! / / fear the goverment that fears your guns. \ \/ / without the 2nd amendment, we cannot guarantee ou \/ / r freedoms. aj008@cleveland.freenet.edu / / buchanan in `96! / / fear the goverment that fears your guns. \ \/ / without the 2nd amendment, we cannot guarantee ou \/ / r freedoms. aj008@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76048">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76048" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 wanted: amiga 1000 memory expander any size (at least 1 meg), populated or not eg. ax2000, insider, etc. needed desperately! cash deal or trade for: 2400 mnp4 everex evercom 24e external modem 2400 pc internal modem pp 2400sa v42.bis external modem apple ii+ parts lots of pc cards panasonic video ccd video camera (bl204) w/ lenses (great for digi-view etc...ccd...no lens...no burn-in!) send email asap! the heartbeat of america...yesterdays camaro z28 tfoley@camaro.uucp call the camaro linux pub-access site: 1-416-238-6550 usrobotics hst note: please, no ftpmail or mailing lists or the host gets annoyed :) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76050">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76050" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am selling an at&t xt compatible. it comes with a green screen cga monitor, 360k 5.25" floppy drive, and a 20 megabyte hard drive. you would think it was brand new from the condition it's in. asking price is $150 + shipping. reply via e-mail if interested. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76051">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76051" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 vhs movie for sale. dance with wovies ($12.00) the tape is new and just open, buyer pay shipping cost. if you are interested, please send your offer to koutd@hirama.hiram.edu douglas kou hiram college 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76055">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76055" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 as the subject says... looking for a hp 48s or perferiably hp 48sx please e-mail replies. steven eckwielen ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ | __| | | __|__ |__ |_ | _ | bitnet : she3328@ritvax ,-- | | _| |_ ||_ |/ /| _ | internet : she3328@ritvax.isc.rit.edu |___|_|_|___|___|___|___|___| uucp : rutgers!rochester!rit!ritvax!she3328 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76056">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76056" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 whistler spectrum 2-se. x, k, ka. pulse protection. good condition. purchased for $130, asking for $80. jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university, dayton, oh e-mail: jyow@desire.wright.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76058">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76058" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 beware, from what i understand neither the amd or cyrix 486s are clones of the intel 486. they are using the "name" 486 because they run as fast as a intel 486. they do not have exactly the same instuction set nor do they fit into the same socket. most are very fast 386s without coprocessors. amd recent won the appeal against intel to use their microcode, so they should be putting out real 486 chips in the near future. mallen@wyvern.wyvern.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76060">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76060" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 dance with wovies ($12.00) ^^^^^^ what the hell ios a 'wovie' ?? (wovy (sp))?? what the hell is 'ios'? fix your own typos before you blame others.... go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76061">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76061" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 this entire dispute over a chip has deluged this newsgroup with a lot of posts that have nothing to sell. it all harkens back to a certain user's post of a month or so ago: stop posting computer equipment here!!! save it for the computer.forsale newsgroups! if you don't get the computer.forsale newsgroups, then ask your sysadmin. to try to subscribe to it at your location. otherwise, knock it off! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76064">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76064" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 2-gigabyte fujitsu 5.25" disk drive internal drive, model m26525a (uses either a scsi or edi interface on your disk controller card) brand new, still in box, never used only $1800 (compare to $2400 in cheapest mail-order catalogs) posted for a friend. pleade respond to: jbredt@athena 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76067">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76067" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 "bare" = case, a power supply, and a motherboard (with ram and a coprocessor). everything else is yours to add as you like. the motherboard: - us-made micronics 8-slot motherboard with intel 386dx/25mhz cpu - 64kb sram cache - 4mb 80us ram using 4x1mb simms (worth $120 alone) - cyrix 83d87 math coprocessor (worth $90 alone) - norton si 6.0 rating of 26.1 - latest version phoenix bios the case/power supply: - standard desktop case. 230watt power supply with the usual connectors. - room for five floppy/hard drives (three visible, two internal). *new* micronics cpus often command a several-hundred dollar premium over clone motherboards because they are us-made, use high-quality components, and are known to be both very reliable and compatible. they have been oemed in systems sold by both gateway and zeos at various points in the past. (check out the ads in the back pages of byte or pc magazine if you want to see this price differential for yourself.) price: $450 complete, $100 less if you don't want/need the case and power supply. the board is fully guaranteed. email for further details or for any questions. thanks! david ruggiero (jdavid@halcyon.com) seattle, wa: home of the moss people 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76068">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76068" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 time for some spring cleaning, so the following items are up for sale: roland mt-32 multi-timbre sound module. la synthesis, upto 32 simultaneous voices, 128 preset timbres, 20-char backlit lcd display, midi in/out/thru, reference card, stereo output, etc great for games that support it (music on the mt32 is far superior to any sound card), experimenting with midi, or for adding additional sounds to your midi setup. $235 + shipping canon rc-250 xapshot still video camera system. includes: camera, carrying pouch, battery pack, battery charger, ac adapter, video cables, two 2.5" floppies (each disk holds 50 pictures for 100 pics total), manuals, etc video output is standard ntsc composite and can be sent to any ntsc device (e.g. to a television for direct viewing of your pictures, to a vcr to record a slideshow, to a computer video digitizer to save/manipulate the pictures on a computer system) $295 + shipping ambico video enhancer/audio mixer three-line stereo audio mixer with microphone input and master volume slider w/video enhancer to boost & sharpen video images when dubbing from vcr->vcr, camcorder->vcr, etc $38 + shipping 2400 baud pc internal modem $25 + shipping quantum 105mb 3.5" internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic in usage. could be a simple easily fixed problem or a major problem, but at any rate i don't have the time to find out where the problem lies. if you want to take a risk on it, you can have it for $45 + shipping. if interested in any of the above items, please email me. -s. hsieh zeno@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76074">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76074" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a casio b.o.s.s. sf-9500 digital dairy/organizer for sale. the unit has 64 kb with the expansion card slot. very good condition. asking $110.00 plus shipping. drmsr+@pitt.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76077">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76077" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have 2 foot switches for sale. they're great for guitar amps, and keyboards. each is about 1" in diameter with a 6' (or so) cable. i'd like $15 for both, but make me an offer, who knows... settle down, raise a family join the pta, buy some sensible shoes, and a chevrolet and party 'till you're broke and they drag you away. it's ok. al yankovic 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76080">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76080" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 cds for sale shipping is included barcelona gold freddie mercury, tevin campbell, en vogue inxs, madonna, eric clapton, sarah brightman ($9.00) wayne's world queen, red hot chili peppers, alice cooper eric clapton ($9.00) extreme ii pronograffitti ($9.00) saturday night live band live from new york ($7.00) harry connick, jr. blue light *sold* (just open, $10.00) dances with woives ($9.00) *sold* handel classical ($ 6.00) *sold* please send your reply to koutd@hirama.hiram.edu package deal is welcome. douglas kou hiram college 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76082">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76082" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 someone please buy these books!!!!! i am not asking much!!!!!! just make me an offer and i will probably take it!!!!! * writing good software in fortran, graham smith. * the holt handbook by kirszner & mandell (copyright 1986) 720+ page writing guide. * general chemistry principles & modern applications, r. petrucci, fourth edition. big book! very good condition! * solutions manual for chemistry book. paperback. * study guide for chemistry book. paperback. send me your offers via email at 02106@chopin.udel.edu 02106@chopin.udel.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76084">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76084" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a brand new low density 5.25" floppy drive for mac. it comes with a brand new apple macintosh ii pc drive card, so that you can hook the drive up to the card. it allows you to use dos formatted disks. i am selling it for $90 (abt 1/3 retail price). 803-654-8817 buyers pay shipping. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76089">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76089" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a lot of cds for sale. prices are $7 per cd and $3 per cd single. cds are noted by (cd) and cd singles by (cds). please include $1 extra per cd for s/h costs. if you want to buy a lot of them, then we'll work out a deal with the shipping costs! type group title cds boys to men motown philly cds c & c music factory keep it comin' cds moby go (remixes) cds quadrophonia schizophrenia cds swing out sister not gonna change cds recoil faith healer cds seal the beginning cds transvision vamp tranvision vamp cds c & c music factory gonna make u sweat cds nitzer ebb godhead cds roxette how do you do! cds b-52's good stuff cds duran duran violence of summer cds nitzer ebb as is cds vanessa williams running back to you cd seal seal cd lfo frequencies cd morissey kill uncle cd underworld change the weather cd jody watley you wanna dance with me? cd dead or alive fan the flame cd transvision vamp velveteen cd adam ant manners & physique cd fine young cannibals the raw & the remix cd black box dreamland cd civilles & cole greatest remixes vol. 1 cd black box mixed up! cd scorpions the best of rockers & cd a & m underground dance jam harder dan church | quote -> "only god can make a tree, but it took a man box 3268 cs | <- mail to invent dwarf tossing!" socorro, nm 87801 | email -> dchurch@nmt.edu - e. hobbs 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76095">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76095" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 one pair of kg1's in oak finish with black grilles. includes original packaging. $200 + shipping firm. walter g. seefeld | by the dawn's early light, 940 n. jackson st. #1a | by all i know is right, starkville, ms 39759 | we're going to reap what we have sown. n5qxr | -jackson brown 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76096">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76096" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 take everything for $210 turbografx-16 base unit (works like new) with: 1 controller ac adapter antenna hookup * games: kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf * will sell games separatley at $25 each please call mike: 908-949-3804 (day) 908-469-3250 (eves) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76098">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76098" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following item for sale: electronic typewriter: panasonic kt-32, with 22k memory, small lcd display. i'm selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface (rpk105) for this typewriter. you can connect it to any pc parallel port (sorry, no cable). it works perfect, even in windows (tty printer). it's great if you need to send letter with "typewriter look". in stand-alone mode it has 3 pitches, and several "effects" like underline, bold, overstrike. built-in dictionary and character/word/ line correction. asking $150 for both the typewriter and the jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge.lach@east.sun.com east coast division, chelmsford, ma 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76099">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76099" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 summer housing needed-at university of washington, seattle. i am looking for a place to stay for the summer at the university of washington, seattle, where i would be doing an internship. if any of you from uofw seattle, has got some kind of space for summer sublet, please send an email/call to me. i expect to start my internship in the first week of june. -koshy george george@cs.umass.edu koshy george, 54, puffton village, amherst, ma, 01002. 413-549-7373 h 413-545-2014 o 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76101">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76101" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a windows 3.1 package for sale. new stil in shrink wrapped. i am asking for $35. i will consider to trade a used 1.44m floppy drive. leave a message if interested. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76103">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76103" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 there are many people want to buy my kodak autofocus carousel projectors but i don't have lenses or remote to sell. they prefer to buy a projector with all accessaries. so i have to post another news asking for lenses to fit those kodak slide projectors: i am willing to give away singer caramate ii or singer caramete sp ( w/ built-in unremovable lens, built-in casette player, speaker, new 500 hr bulb) try to trade for kodak projector lenses. each projector (viewer) will equal trade for 1 or 2 kodak projector lenses depend on the focal length. i will pay for the shipping for singer projector (viewer). since i don't need those singer projectors, if you have some 35mm slr system you don't need, i am willing to do the trade as well. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76104">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76104" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a tektronix t921 15mhz scope for sale. it is a nice, simple unit to learn on. i used it while i was in school. if you want one to play with at home, this is easy and inexpensive. it has a nice handle and is quite lightweight and easy to move around. i will consider selling the probes seperately for $25 ea. they are hp 10017a probes suitable for this type of scope. the probes are not included in the price of $99 for the scope. if you need more technical info, you will have to come look at it, as i am not a scope expert and what i have said is all i know. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76107">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76107" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 486dx/33 cpu chip for sale, $250+shipping. if you like to pay $250 for the please refer to 7870, he is selling $150 for that cpu. correct. & $150 may be high now that amd has started selling 486 clones! indeed! word is, intel's lawsuit against amd was absolutely thrown out of court monday! amd said they would be shipping chips with the intel instruction set next week!!! 486 chip prices are going to go through the floor, mark my words!!! waters,clyde gordon-bme '93-georgia institute of technology atlanta ga. "out of the mountain of despair, we can hew the stone of hope"- mlk jr. uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0869a internet: gt0869a@prism.gatech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76108">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76108" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 386dx 25mhz (dtk motherboard intel microprocessor) 128k internal cache 4 megs ram 89 meg harddrive (ide controller) 1.2 meg floppy drive 1.44 meg floppy drive 2 serial ports 1 parallel port samsung vga monitor vga graphics card 101 key keyboard 2400 baud internal modem ms-dos 6.0 procomm plus ver. 2.0 norton utilities ver. 4.5 other varius utilities i'm upgrading and need to sell. the system is reliable and ready to go. i've never had any problems with it. i'm asking $1050 o.b.o. if you're interested, please respond by either e-mail or phone. tae0460@zeus.tamu.edu 409-696-6043 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76110">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76110" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i also have a pair of size 11-11.5 raichle flexon comps. these boots are black and yellow. they are in good condition. i would like around $100 for them also but feel free to make an offer. please reply to: crane@coral.bucknell.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76113">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76113" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 th following cd's are for sale. each cd cost 10$ except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling. achtung baby u2 * joshua tree u2 ** the immaculate collection madonna ** $12 love hurts cher * garth brooks garth brooks * red hot ..chilli peppers.. ** ooooohhhhh tlc ** light and shadows wilson ** * used only once. ** never used, most of them are still in shrink wraps please email to kgc @ woods.ulowell.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76115">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76115" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 | does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor 2190?? | i have a 2190 that came off of a vs2000 that i would like to use on a pc. [ ... useful info about the maxtor drive deleted ... ] since the 3b1 "normally" has only one hd, you would jumper betwwwn "c1" to select the first (possible) drive address; if the 2190 is your second drive on the 3b1, then jumper between "2c". however, thad, you should note that he said that he would like to use it on a 'pc', not 'unix-pc'. also note the strange cross-posting (as he probably did not), so it is not sure exactly what sort of machine he intends to mount it on. if it *is* a pc (or clone), then the "2c" jumper would be the correct choice. i've left the cross-posting in effect, since i'm not sure which newsgroup he would really be reading this in. :-) email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | ...!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols <dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com> donald nichols (don.) | voice (days): (703) 704-2280 (eves): (703) 938-4564 --- black holes are where god is dividing by zero --- 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76120">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76120" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 condensers, kimble modern liebig west #18003. jacket length 500 mm. all glass, straight tubes. plastic/gasketed end caps. exactly like central scientific's 14459 series condensers. being sold in american science & surplus's april catalog for ~$20 each. in original (old) packaging. i have 13 of these. $15 each. volume discounts: buy discount bonus 3 - 8 10% free insurance. 9 + 30% free shipping and insurance. for quality control, all have been opened and inspected for damage. :) buyer must pay for shipping/insurance unless otherwise noted. shipping should be about $2.00 for one or two; $3.00 for three or four; etc. insurance should be about $0.75 per tube. sugarman@cs.umb.edu | 6172876077 univ | 6177313637 home | standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76124">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76124" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 hi netters, quantum lps 240at harddisk forsale. 3.5" frame, 1/3 height. ide format, master or slave 723 cyl 13 hd 51 s/t = 234.9 real megs access time of 16 ms. 256k cache on the drive asking $300. email me: jakers@uhunix3.uhcc.hawaii.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76125">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76125" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i have two (2) bus tickets for sale from bethlehem pa (lehigh university) to philadelphia pa. tickets good until august 24, 1993. $15 for both obo. please email at tsai@eniac.seas.upenn.edu or call (215)573-6252. -=( joe tsai )=- |tsai@eniac.seas.upenn.edu /// the wharton school '96 | a500/// the school of engineering |'heels back-to-back 93-94! \\\ /// and applied science '96 | \\\/// the university of pennsylvania|"flowers often bloom at night" r.e.m. \xx/ 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76126">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76126" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 well, if you have an irwin 250 mb, here is a great deal for you: genuine irwin accutrak 120-250 tapes, $16/ea 3m dc2120 tapes. $16/ea all the avove tapes are new, never used, and factory preformatted. email if interested. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76133">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76133" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 "computer friends" nubus card - good for doing graphics overlays on your videos etc. $275 with apple 8 bit vid card, $225 without. wont sell vid card separately. ups (u pay shipping). 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76134">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76134" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale: a thule car rack with 2 bike holder accessories. comes with nissan pathfinder brackets but you can buy the appropriate ones for your car cheap. looking for $100.00 for everything. i live in the bethesda area. thanks for your interest. * james l. olds ph.d. neural systems section * * domain: olds@helix.nih.gov ninds, nih, bethesda, md. 20892 usa * 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76135">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76135" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 [ article crossposted from misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone ] [ author was mark wilson ] [ posted on fri, 16 apr 1993 13:18:42 gmt ] update ("for sale" items): (all plus shipping) 1. core 72mb hard drive, model at72, works fine, 5 1/4" full-height, reduced to $90 2. mfm controller for the above, would like to sell with above, have $15 asking price, but will sell with #1 above for $100 combined. 3. at-style case $10 (in process of selling) 4. vga card, 512k, now asking $25 5. 386 max, version 6.0, now asking $25 please email mark@ocsmd.ocs.com or use phone #s below. mark wilson, online computer systems. 1-800-922-9204 or 1-301-601-2215 (try email address mark@ocsmd.ocs.com....) this file .disclaims everything signed with my .signature, i .mean it! mark wilson, online computer systems. 1-800-922-9204 or 1-301-601-2215 (try email address mark@ocsmd.ocs.com....) this file .disclaims everything signed with my .signature, i .mean it! 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76137">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76137" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 greetings! hp 20s forsale. comes with case no manuals excellent condition asking for $13.00 if interested, please e-mail today. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76138">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76138" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i am posting this for a friend. please do not respond to me. thanks. house for sale!!!!! 16 brockton road, mercerville, new jersey description: beautiful 3 bedroom, 1 1/2 bath cape cod located on a large tastefully landscaped corner with fenced in lot. this home features an eat-in kitchen with built-in corner china closet, a large living room, wall-to-wall carpeting, hardwood floors, new ceramic tile foyer, and freshly painted neutral tone decor. this home includes new central air and heating, new roof, new water heater, aluminum siding, storm windows and doors and rockwell insulation in all exterior walls. also features a new partially finished basement with an outside entrance and new duro shed. lots of storage space. convenient to rt. 295. extras: dishwasher, washer and dryer, ceiling fans, and window treatments call for appointment at (609) 586-1946. *****open house on sunday, april 18th, 1:00 - 4:00. call for directions***** 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76145">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76145" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 > motorola expo vhf 2watt/2chan. ht--------[new]-------$1200.00 > would like $400, or best offer!!! i'm sure that the motorola is worth it, but this kind of thing has always mystified me. $400 is the price of very good, new dual-band, fully synthasized ht. yes, yes, i know motorola hts are bullet-proof, unbreakable, plutonium-based indestructable -- you can drive a tank over them and they'll still work. but just how often does that come up? why are hams willing (and they *are*) to spend the price of a synthaszied dual-bander for a 2-channel xtal rig??? note: this is not a flame; as i said, i'm sure this is a good deal for this rig. i'm just amazed that it *is* a good deal. i would have guessed that a 2 channel xtal rig could never be worth as much as a dual- bander to a ham, no matter how durable. just shows you how wrong *i* can be. mike, n4pdy * these are my opinions only.* 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76148">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76148" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 my roommate is selling a sega genesis system with sonic i, in very nice condition, for $100 obo. please respond via email to: pathall@as.arizona.edu alternate email addresses are phall@noao.edu and moe@ccit.arizona.edu. pat hall 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76149">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76149" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 84 mazda pickup rebuilt engine at 60,000 miles. new transmission, 5 speed. 88,000 miles. new brakes, new brake calipers. brand new clutch, only 200 miles on it. professional ladder racks, can hold up to 6 ladders.. 4 cylinder, gets 30-35 miles to the gallon. fog lights. runs great. all inquires should write back or call. i will have it saturday afternoon, and sunday if you would like to take a look at it. phone: 1-215-882-3154 if your are painting this summer, this is an excellent vehicle to use. | andy feigin | | | prodigy -> rwbp88d | | 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76150">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76150" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i'm looking for some game boy games. please e-mail me with your list and offers! thanks! also, if you have a game boy you want to get rid of, please tell me. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76151">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76151" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 moving sale: must sell before may 5: futon: high-end, oak, queen, like new -- $250 computer desk: roll-top, locks securely, like new -- $100 color tv: 13", perfect cond., great for bedroom -- $50 ( ***sold) coffee tables/dresser: $40 or b.o. lamps: $10 make an offer!! ask for esther: 415/571-6062 eve 408/736-0490 day 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76153">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76153" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 for sale str-av1070 audio receiver 120 watts per channel dolby surround sound with pro logic learning programmable remote 10 watts per channel for surround sound supports dual room link control (to hear another source in a different room) index filing of all radio stations 7 band equilizer with real-time analyzer i need to get $450 for this unit or best offer. cdp-c910 sony ten disc changer ten disc cartridge custom file of your favorite program or title or volume for each disc (up to 184 disc memory!) remote control fixed and variable volume outputs optical output 8x oversampling rate $325 firm. i purchased these items about 6 months ago and need to sell them now to buy a house. both units are in immaculate shape and are priced to move. steven walsh walshs@cs.uwp.edu (414) 654-4473 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76155">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76155" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend. i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr-u770 car stereo. if by any chance anyone has had the body of a sony xr-u770 stolen and has an otherwise useless front panel i would love to buy it from you. if you know anyone who had a removeable-front-panel car stereo stolen from them, could you please forward this message to them? thanks! i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable-front-panels were to make the radio useless, and thus discourage theft (that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left.) if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs, or even sold at all, then the above discouragement wouldn't be so great. i personally would be unhappy, if i bought a radio like that, thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio's value, and the covers were sold by the company (or other legitimate source) cheaply. --------8<-------if you cut here, you'd ruin your monitor------8<------- kenneth d. ray expert: someone who knows more and more crc ocis about less and less and finally rice university knows everything about nothing. 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76158">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76158" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 [ article crossposted from temple.forsale ] [ author was ray lauff (ray@astro.ocis.temple.edu) ] [ posted on wed, 21 apr 1993 01:04:27 gmt ] regular cbs/fox release of the wide screen edition of the movie the abyss for sale, asking $30, including postage. i want to purchase the new director's cut and would like to unload this laserdisc if possible. two discs, unopened, 132 minutes, letterbox. email me if interested. ray@astro.ocis.temple.edu ray lauff | temple university computer services | ray_lauff@astro.temple.edu ray lauff | temple university computer services | ray_lauff@astro.temple.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76159">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76159" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i had a deal on one, but the buyer disappear, so here we go again: i am in the market for an inexpensive accelerator for 500-2000 series. lucas/frances, a2620 or similair preferred. if you have something like this, please offer me. my address is hsneits@nyx.cs.du.edu, and you propably can reach me at my home: +358-0-802-6747 too. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76161">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76161" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 1. software publishing superbase 4 windows v.1.3 --->$80 2. ocr system readright v.3.1 for windows --->$65 3. ocr system readright v.2.01 for dos --->$65 4. unregistered zortech 32 bit c++ compiler v.3.1 --->$ 250 with multiscope windows debugger, whitewater resource toolkit, library source code 5. glockenspiel/imagesoft commonview 2 windows applications framework for borland c++ --->$70 6. spontaneous assembly library with source code --->$50 7. microsoft macro assembly 6.0 --->$50 8. microsoft windows v.3.1 sdk documentation --->$125 9. microsoft foxpro v.2.0 --->$75 10. wordperfect 5.0 developer's toolkit --->$20 11. kedwell software databoss v.3.5 c code generator --->$100 12. kedwell installboss v.2.0 installation generator --->$35 13. liant software c++/views v.2.1 windows application framework with source code --->$195 14. ibm os/2 2.0 & developer's toolkit --->$95 15. cbtree dos/windows library with source code --->$120 16. symantec timeline for windows --->$90 17. timeslip timesheet professional for windows --->$30 many more software/books available,price negotiable 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76163">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76163" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am auctioning off the following comics. these minimum bids are set below what i would normally sell them for. make an offer, and i will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed. title minimum/current alpha flight 51 (jim lee's first work at marvel) $ 5.00 aliens 1 (1st app aliens in comics, 1st prnt, may 1988) $20.00/krism./twice amazing spider-man 136 (intro new green goblin) $20.00 amazing spider-man 238 (1st appearance hobgoblin) $50.00 archer and armstrong 1 (frank miller/smith/layton) $ 7.50 avengers 263 (1st appearance x-factor) $ 3.50 bloodshot 1 (chromium cover, bwsmith cover/poster) $ 5.00 daredevil 158 (frank miller art begins) $35.00 dark horse presents 1 (1st app concrete, 1st printing) $ 7.50 detective 657 (azrael appears, intro cypher) $ 5.00 harbinger 10 (1st appearance h.a.r.d. corps) $ 7.00/b.matthey/sold h.a.r.d. corps 1 $ 5.00 incredible hulk 324 (1st app grey hulk since #1, 1962) $ 7.50 incredible hulk 330 (1st mcfarlane issue) $15.00 incredible hulk 331 (grey hulk series begins) $11.20 incredible hulk 367 (1st dale keown art in hulk) $15.00 incredible hulk 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, keown) $15.00 marvel comics presents 1 (wolverine, silver surfer) $ 7.50 maxx limited ashcan (4000 copies exist, blue cover) $33.50/brentb/twice mr t. #1 (signed advance copy, 10,000 exist) $10.00 new mutants 86 (mcfarlane cover, 1st app cable - cameo) $10.00 new mutants 100 (1st app x-force) $ 5.00 new mutants annual 5 (1st liefeld art on new mutants) $10.00 omega men 3 (1st appearance lobo) $ 7.50 omega men 10 (1st full lobo story) $ 7.50 power man & iron fist 78 (3rd appearance sabretooth) $25.00 84 (4th appearance sabretooth) $20.00 simpsons comics and stories 1 (polybagged special ed.) $ 7.50 spectacular spider-man 147 (1st app new hobgoblin) $12.50 star trek the next generation 1 (feb 1988, dc mini) $ 7.50 star trek the next generation 1 (oct 1989, dc comics) $ 7.50 trianglehead #1 (special limited edition, autogrphed) $ 5.00 web of spider-man 29 (hobgoblin, wolverine appear) $10.00 web of spider-man 30 (origin rose, hobgoblin appears) $ 7.50 wolverine 10 (before claws, 1st battle with sabretooth) $15.00 wolverine 41 (sabretooth claims to be wolverine's dad) $ 5.00 wolverine 42 (sabretooth proven not to be his dad) $ 3.50 wolverine 43 (sabretooth/wolverine saga concludes) $ 3.00 wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, miller art) $20.00 wonder woman 267 (return of animal man) $12.50 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, x-force card) $20.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, shatterstar card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, deadpool card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, sunspot/gideon) $10.00 all comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. some titles i have posted here don't list every issue i have of that title, i tried to save space. geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76164">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76164" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 $6.95 each. add $1.05 for postage (4th class), that makes it $8. all these 5 discs are still shrink wrapped (1) kathleen battle,wynton marsalis baroque duet sony classical (2) david sanborn, upfront elektra (2) kenny g live arista (3) jimmy buffett,songs you know by heart/greatest hits mca records (4) billy ray cyrus, some gave all mercury (5) en vogue, funky divas eastwest records 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76165">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76165" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 fellow netters, i just wanted to let you know that there are a few honest and good people out there (even outside of iowa). i'm sorry if anyone thinks that i am wasting space, but i thought you might want some relief from the "so-and-so is a thief" posts. not that i think we shouldn't hear about the bad deals, but it would be nice to hear some good news once in a while. after seeing his post on one of the for sale groups, i mailed mr. mark miller a request for his copy of wordperfect 5.1 for dos. he suggested a price of $50 in his ad, but when i phoned him, he quoted $40 plus shipping. that sounded more than fair to me, so i told him that i would send him a check the next day. imagine my surprise when i logged into my account the following day and found a message from him saying that it had already been sold (after i had just mailed the money order). after another e-mail message to him, he apologized and assured me that it was a mistake - i was the one who he was holding it for. he sent the package as soon as he got the money, along with a letter stating a transfer of license. this wasn't good enough for wordperfect, so i asked him to fill out one of their forms. no problem - we thought. it took three times to get it to the right address (my fault). anyway, he mailed me the form for my signature and included a workbook that i had no idea was included in the deal. again, he apologized for not sending it before. i now have the world's best word processor and a renewed hope in the world that there are a few good ones left. i recoend that if you ever see that mark is selling anything thatat you may want, give him a call. if i had the choice, i would purchase all of my software from him. bravo, mr. miller! - kevin harter 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76167">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76167" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend. i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr-u770 car stereo. i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable-front-panels were to make the radio useless, and thus discourage theft (that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left.) if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs, or even sold at all, then the above discouragement wouldn't be so great. i personally would be unhappy, if i bought a radio like that, thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio's value, and the covers were sold by the company (or other legitimate source) cheaply. the front covers should be available from sony. check with a local car stereo shop. you will probably (definitely) have to provide the units serial number and hopefully you had registered the warranty card. i don't know the cost, but replacements have to be available to people who damage the face cover, so it stands to reason that it can be replaced. as to deterring theft: when i worked for a stereo shop, we referred the customer to a sony 800 number. we would not sell the face, nor did we have them available. most people who came in asking for the face cover (or a pullout sleave for that matter) would look very disheartened to find that they acquired a deck they couldn't use. if theft occurs with these decks, notify sony. serial numbers do catch theives. just a thought, 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76170">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76170" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 hello all, goucher college will soon be retiring a microvax ii, world case, 2 70mb hard drives, 16 port i/o, 2 mb (maybe 4mb) system memory. any idea as to how much we can expect to get for this machine on the open market?? please reply privately to: tim.marshall%goucher@wb3ffv.ampr.org thanks in advance..... * tim marshall - associate director, academic computing * * goucher college, baltimore, md. all opinions are mine alone. * * documentation - a manual which tells you how to use a program, * * system, or utility one version ago, and which is now unsupported.* 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76171">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76171" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 i would like to sell some software. shipping is $3 per order - 1 or more games in the continental u.s. $6 to canada. contact me for shipping to other locations. contraption zack $20 perfect condition. unregistered & all docs/disks/packaging a 3-d puzzle game with great animated graphics. your tools for fixing up a manufacturing plant are hidden throughout the levels and you must solve puzzles to get the tools and then use the tools to fix the machines. the levels are huge and span many screens. the graphics are cartoony and humorous. (256 color vga,mcga, adlib,soundblaster,roland,3.5") legend of kyrandia $30 perfect condition. unregistered & all docs/disks/packaging an adventure where you are the unknowing heir to the throne of the kingdom of kyrandia. an evil jester has murdered your parents, the king and queen, and attempted to take control of the kingdom, only to be thwarted by a spell cast upon him by your grandfather and three other magic users. you must travel to find each of the magic users to gain use of an amulet that will help you to defeat the jester. beautiful graphics and a great soundtrack. (vga,mcga, adlib,sound blaster,soundblaster pro,mt-32/lapc-1,3.5") spirit of excalibur by virgin mastertronic $15 good condition. all docs/disks/packaging. a fantasy game combining role-playing, adventure, and combat simulation. you are the heir to the throne of britain after arthur has died. you must re-unite the land under your rule and then defend it against an invading army from the north. (ega, tandy, mcga, vga, sound cards, 5.25") loom $15 perfect condition. unregistered & all docs/disks/packaging. received a computer gaming world award for artistic achievement. an adventure game where you play the role of a young weaver of musical spells. you must save your fellow weavers from oblivion by traveling through the land, casting spells, learning new spells befriending people you meet, and foiling an evil plot. all point and click -- no typing. every action in the game involves casting your musical spells. (vga,ega,cga,mcga,tandy,adlib,cms sound, 5.25") dark seed $35 perfect condition, used very little. unregistered & all docs/disks/ packaging. an adventure based on the surrealistic and macabre artwork of h.r. giger -- the inspiration for alien, alien iii, and poltergeist ii. you have just bought an old victorian house at a bargain in a secluded town. you find that there is a portal to a dark, sinister world in your house and a plot against the world as you know it. you must save yourself and your world from a horrible fate. gorgeous and gory high resolution graphics. (vga,adlib,soundblaster,3.5") conquest of japan by impressions $30 brand new, used only once. unregistered & all docs/disks/packaging. simulation of samurai conquest. you play the role of a japanese daimyo - a lord. you control five cities on japan's main island, honshu. each provides money for you to buy armies, with which you must conquer your enemy. battles are fought with impressions' miniature system. you watch the individual samurai, mounted samurai, spearmen, archers, and arquebusiers. (vga, adlib, 3.5" & 5.25") 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76172">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76172" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 seagate 1.2gb scsi hard drive brand new with full factory warranty. 5-1/4" fh, 15ms access time, 150,000 mtbf only $1100+s/h. leave e-mail if interested. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76173">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76173" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 my friends and i have a buch of books for sale. they are not being used due to change of job, loss of interest etc. rather than letting them gather dust, we would like to pass them on to others who may use them (of course at a price :-) topics include: - c/c++/other programming languages - unix/dos/os2/windows/other operating system topics (general) - x/motif/olit/xwin - networking and digital signal processing - computer graphics - microprocessors and computer architecture - software engineering/algorithms/software testing - expert systems the list is long and rather than posting it here i will email it by request. i am going to keep the list updated and so will respond to all requests (lucky me :-) if you are interested drop me a line ====== s. alavi [ssa@unity.ncsu.edu] (919)467-7909 (h) ======== 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76178">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76178" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 victoria hotel reserv. 2 nights $40 mid-week (sun - thurs) hotel reservation available for victoria, canada. 2 nights/3 days for $40. expires june 1, 1993. this is a letter of credit (fully transferrable) issued by hotelco for a hotel room in any of a number of available hotels in victoria, canada. hotelco is a reputable hotel booking company that provides hotel stays at low prices. this letter of credit normally works for weekends, too, but all weekends are booked solid for the summer. so, check with hotelco directly for available dates at one of its member hotels to use this letter of credit before june 1. hotelco can be reached at (206)485-5200 in bothell or 1-800-645-8885 during regular business hours. then, if you find an acceptable reservation date, contact me for this letter of credit. roger bacalzo rbacalzo@sierra.com (206)828-9094 (home) (206)822-5200 x360 (work) roger bacalzo sierra geophysics 11255 kirkland way (206) 822-5200 ext. 360 kirkland, wa 98033 rbacalzo@sibu.sierra.com 
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<instance id="misc.forsale76180">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76180" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 townhome for sale in wheaton briarcliffe lakes of wheaton just north of butterfield road call (708) 682-8222 and ask for harriet bode (prudential realty) description: a very neat, well cared for, low maintenance starter coach home in very fine condition located on a cul-de-sac . just move in. rooms:(5+1) - eat in kitchen (10.3 x 9.2) - large master bedroom (12.6 x 12.6) - spare bedroom (12.6 x 10) - dining room (10.9 x 9) - living room (21 x 11.10) - utility room (10 x 5.5) - 1.25 baths appliances: - stove(gas), refrigerator and dish washer - garage opener - washer and dryer - garbage disposal - gas water heater (3 years old) - central a/c with digital thermostat. highlights: - electric fire place in living room. - sliding glass doors which open up to a patio with a secluded back yard area. - plenty of storage space with patio storage closet and storage closet in garage. - new ceiling fan in dining room, - completely remodeled bathroom (new wallpaper, shower door, shower tile, etc...) - mini blinds for all windows - newer carpets (beige) (about 3 years old) - one car garage and plenty of guest parking association fees: $105.90 which includes the following: - lawn maintenance - snow removal - all exterior building maintenance taxes 1992: $1,700 asking price of home: $91,900 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76181">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76181" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i agree. i own one. aside from the shutter, it is built like a little tank. a very good camera. your price sounds reasonable, too. new, i paid $565 for my kiev 88 camera kit. good luck. thomas helke egret@wet.uucp 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76183">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76183" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a wonderful commodore 128 for sale!!!! also included: 1571 disk drive color moniter power supply (great shape) 2 300 baud modems (old, but useable) contact doug (906) 487-0369 or (815) 623-6447 -- via dlg pro v0.995 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76185">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76185" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following is posted for a friend. send replies to the address at the end of the post please. attention zenith z-248 owners!!! upgrade your 8 mhz at-class machine to '386 performance with a genuine zenith motherboard for a clone price! motherboard and i/o card pop right in to your z-248 case while keeping your existing video and disk controllers. zenith z-386/25 motherboard featuring 16kb of 16-layer, posted-write cache using 15 ns sram; 8 mb of 70 ns dram included, accepts 20 mb on motherboard (further ram upgrades available via superslots running at memory bus speeds; 7 expansion slots feature 4 zenith 32-bit superslots: autodetects 8/16/32-bit adapters; latest rev. of z-300 setup/monitor roms, two serial ports, one parallel port, secondary fan for improved system cooling, z-386 user's guide, z-386 maintenance guide and diagnostics disk included. $575 (includes s/h/insurance). replies to: stann@aol.com replies to me will be forwarded. thanks..... brian shapiro, systems support specialist ohio university, athens, ohio 45701 (614) 593-1608 shapiro@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu or shapirob@ouaccvma.bitnet 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76188">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76188" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sharp wizard: oz-8000 electronic organizer w/ 64k ram * home and world clocks * calendar * schedular * anniversary and periodic dates * 3 telephone directories * business card directory * calculator * outliner/memos * 40x8 screen * qwerty style keyboard * alarms * password protection * pc computer interface (requires cable) * software card slot w/ touch screen * vt100 terminal builitin (requires cable and modem) i also have have an external battery pack that uses aa's mail order price: sharp $300 : battery pak $35 asking : $150 for the whole deal unit is in perfect shape, i just don't use as anything but an address duane fields friends don't work# (409) 845-6904 box 1315 let friends use home# (409) 847-6760 college station, tx 77841 ms-dos. email: duanef@tamu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76189">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76189" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 is there anyone out there with a copy of the driver for turtle beach's samplevision program that allows you to use a always tech in-2000 scsi card to do smdi dumps between your pc and your peavey dpm-sp / sx / sx2 ??? this is normally only available directly from turtle beach but i was just wondering if there was someone who got it and couldn't find a use for it.. if you have a copy let me know! cg132sad@icogsci1.ucsd.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76190">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76190" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 acorn software, inc. has 3 tape drives (currently used on a vms system) for sale. these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition. wangdat 1300 4mm $500.00 wangdat 2600 4mm (compression) $650.00 exabyte 8200 8mm $650.00 plus shipping and cod. certified checks only, please. these units are sold as is and without warrantee. contact me if you're dick munroe internet: munroe@dmc.com doyle munroe consultants, inc. uucp: ...uunet!thehulk!munroe 267 cox st. office: (508) 568-1618 hudson, ma. fax: (508) 562-1133 get connected!!! send mail to info@dmc.com to find out about dmconnection. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76194">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76194" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 cannondale 3.0 road bike 56 cm bright blue color dura ace 8 speed not sti, could be easily converted though. 32 spoke wheelset, clinchers. complete bike $700 or best offer. all offers will be considered this bike has to go. desperate times call for desperate measures. will consider parting out, write for details. jay ritchie jbr1@ra.msstate.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76195">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76195" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following comics are for auction. the highest bid takes them! new stuff added! (oooooh! the mr. t. premium comic!) title minimum/current alpha flight 51 (jim lee's first work at marvel) $ 5.00 aliens 1 (1st app aliens in comics, 1st prnt, may 1988) $20.00/krism./three amazing spider-man 136 (intro new green goblin) $20.00 amazing spider-man 238 (1st appearance hobgoblin) $50.00 archer and armstrong 1 (frank miller/smith/layton) $ 7.50 avengers 263 (1st appearance x-factor) $ 3.50 bloodshot 1 (chromium cover, bwsmith cover/poster) $ 5.00/same/once daredevil 158 (frank miller art begins) $35.00 dark horse presents 1 (1st app concrete, 1st printing) $ 7.50 detective 657 (azrael appears, intro cypher) $ 5.00 harbinger 10 (1st appearance h.a.r.d. corps) $ 7.00/b.matthey/sold h.a.r.d. corps 1 $ 5.00 incredible hulk 324 (1st app grey hulk since #1 1962) $ 7.00 incredible hulk 330 (1st mcfarlane issue) $15.00 incredible hulk 331 (grey hulk series begins) $11.00 incredible hulk 367 (1st dale keown art in hulk) $15.00 incredible hulk 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, keown) $15.00 marvel comics presents 1 (wolverine, silver surfer) $ 7.50 maxx limited ashcan (4000 copies exist, blue cover) $33.50/brentb/three mr t. #1 (signed advance copy, 10,000 exist) $10.00 new mutants 86 (mcfarlane cover, 1st app cable - cameo) $10.00 new mutants 100 (1st app x-force) $ 5.00 new mutants annual 5 (1st liefeld art on new mutants) $10.00 omega men 3 (1st appearance lobo) $ 7.50 omega men 10 (1st full lobo story) $ 7.50 power man & iron fist 78 (3rd appearance sabretooth) $20.00 power man & iron fist 84 (4th appearance sabretooth) $15.00 simpsons comics and stories 1 (polybagged special ed.) $ 7.50 spectacular spider-man 147 (1st app new hobgoblin) $12.50 star trek the next generation 1 (feb 1988, dc mini) $ 7.50 star trek the next generation 1 (oct 1989, dc comics) $ 7.50 trianglehead #1 (special limited edition, autogrphed) $ 5.00 web of spider-man 29 (hobgoblin, wolverine appear) $10.00 web of spider-man 30 (origin rose, hobgoblin appears) $ 7.50 wolverine 10 (before claws, 1st battle with sabretooth) $15.00 wolverine 41 (sabretooth claims to be wolverine's dad) $ 5.00 wolverine 42 (sabretooth proven not to be his dad) $ 3.50 wolverine 43 (sabretooth/wolverine saga concludes) $ 3.00 wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, miller art) $20.00 wonder woman 267 (return of animal man) $12.50 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, x-force card) $20.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, shatterstar card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, deadpool card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, sunspot/gideon) $10.00 all comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. some titles i have posted here don't list every issue i have of that title, i tried to save space. geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76198">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76198" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 item: sony es-cdpx229 condition: mint age: 1 year old price: $300 item: sony cdp 770 condition: excellent age: 2.5 years old price: $250 everything comes with the original packaging and manuals. these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape. if you are interested, or need any additional information, please e-mail (pc1o@andrew.cmu.edu) or call me at home. (412) 687-3735 p.s. yes, these are for sale again. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76200">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76200" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 pc games for sale...... both games in original package and original docs. jordan in flight $30 +s&h test drive 3 $15 + s&h or obo contact bob at... 708-979-6164 rwrona@ihlpb.att.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76202">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76202" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 1990 mazda 626 dx $6000 or best offer nada blue book: $9075 - $2175 for mileage = $6900 e-mail or call ron at (908)805-2248 (work) or (908)454-9337 (home) * 92,000 miles, all highway (i used to commute 160 miles/day) * 5 speed * air conditioning * am/fm/cassette stereo * split fold-down rear seat * 2.2 liter, 12 valve, fuel injected engine * roomy interior, comfy back seats, big trunk * well maintained - oil and filter every 3,000 - 4,000, other maintanence as scheduled. except for the timing belt which still looks new. i did slip and went 5,000 miles without changing the oil once. * tires have 20,000 miles, lots of life left (probably 30,000 to 40,000) * front brake job at 84,000, back brakes are still good * engine/trans/drive train in perfect condition - everything works, nothing needs replacing, next tune up scheduled at 120,000 * body is good - left tail light is cracked (i'm trying to find a used one - dealer wants $172!), two long scratches and a ding on the hood (vandalism?), a bunch of stone chips on the front of the hood. official mazda touch up paint included in the deal. this car is extremely reliable, even better than the toyota corolla it replaced. besides the tires, brakes and maintanence items, the only other parts that have been replaced are the headlight bulbs. selling because my wife refuses to drive a car without an automatic trans. and she wants a station wagon with a sun roof, etc, etc. ron deblock rdb1@homxb.att.com (that's a number 1 in rdb1, not letter l) at&t bell labs somerset, nj usa 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76203">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76203" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 seeking north carolina beach rental. desire house for two families (4 adults, 3 kids) for one week in late june/early fred masterson fmaster@ravel.udel.edu psychology department fred.masterson@mvs.udel.edu university of delaware gnm00666@udelvm.bitnet newark, de 19716 usa (302 831 2575) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76206">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76206" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have recently purchased a pb170 and have no more use for my rasterops 8xl. it has been a great card. i should have traded it with my iici, but i forgot. my forgetfulness si your gain. great 8 bit video that supports: 640x480 (apple 13"/14") 640x870 (apple portrait) 800x600 (silly dos monitor resolution) 1024x768 (60hz & 75hz) 1152x870 (apple 21") has hardware pan & zoom and supports virtual desktops up to the size of 2 newspaper pages. includes standard apple monitor cable or card to bnc, you choose. i am asking $250 (it's still advertised in macworld for up to $499). completely negotiable. i can get a monitor and sell the pair. i will accept offers for software or powerbook accessory trades. make an offer. rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp@cae.wisc.edu computer aided engineering 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76207">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76207" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 greetings netters, i have a seagate 3144 130mb ide drive forsale. i bought it yesterday and have been able to come across a 215mb that i am going to buy, but i need to sell this one. i guarantee that it will work. there is still a transferable warranty i believe. it was only used as a boot drive, not a server (source) drive. i just want my money back out of it...$180. thanks a lot and offers appreciated. dave 317-495-5978 kari@sage.cc.purdue.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76208">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76208" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 claris filemaker pro database manager for sale. still in package. $240 or best offer. call (415) 824 6209, ask for larry. *** do not respond to this account *** 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76209">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76209" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 apple iigs imagewriter ii color printer color rgb monitor 3.5" drive 5.25" drive lots of disks some applications most manuals and my utmost gratification for only 650.00 or bo 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76213">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76213" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 two round-trip tickets o'hare --> tuscon american airlines good thru november no reasonable offer refused, but lets start at $750 for both (paid $925) hopefully someone can use these as i have no use for them, and don't know a way to get my moneys worth without going to tuscon again! ` e-mail only at this time tripper@cbnewsk.cb.att.com now why would at&t or butler services have anything to do with my warped ramblings?! crabby-old-fart mechanical/pcb designer w/buku cad background, & still working on bscs is looking for work! wants to take a shot at asic/ic layout!! a.r.tripp - a.k.a. tripper@cbnewsk.cb.att.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76214">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76214" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 "jack previdi" <p00020@psilink.com> writes, in reply to dorothy heydt reminding us that advertising is not done on internet: as a matter of fact d.j., it does make a difference. almost a half million new users joined the internet last year, many of them are commercial businesses. the ban on commercial use of internet is no more. jack, there is a difference between using the network for commercial purposes and advertising in newsgroups. business communication is okay. advertising to hundreds of thousands of users around the planet who have no desire to receive advertising is not okay. those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no "administrator" to guide(?) us. i suspect that a site which generated a large volume of material not in anybody's good taste would find itself getting a lot of attention it didn't want. you may belong to the public library, but that doesn't mean you can deface the books, disorder the stacks, or disturb the other patrons. you're constrained by the same rules that the rest of the users (many academic and military, who get irritable about a network for which they pay with tax and grant money carrying private business advertising) follow. there are secret masters here, just like everywhere else. they're not as obvious as the ones on prodigy, but they're here. no doubt at some point the internet, like everything else, will become grotty enough to carry advertising. at that time i hope it is confined to its own newsgroups and not on discussion groups---like misc.writing. elizabeth willey 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76215">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76215" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am posting this for a friend. please do not respond to this account!!! if you are interested in any of the following, ask for rob at (510) 521-3147. laptop pc: $1200 - 386sx 20mhz cpu - 4 mb ram - 120 mb hard drive - vga graphics (32 greyscale) lcd - external vga port - 3.5" high density floppy drive - removable 101-key keyboard - external keyboard port - 2 serial, 1 parallel and 1 expansion ports - expansion unit available, which has 2 full-size card slots bernoulli drive: $400 - dual 20 mb disk drives - 20 mb cartridges (comes with 4 disks) - external unit scanner: $50 - logitech scanman desktop pc: $1000 - 386dx 20mhz cpu - 4 mb ram - 80 mb hard drive - 387 math co-processor - super vga graphics - 101-key keyboard - 3.5" high density floppy drive - 5.25" high density floppy drive - 2 serial, 1 parallel ports 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76218">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76218" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hp 48sx calculator with 128k card. have manuals, boxes, pc cable, etc. only 5 months old, hardly used. make an offer. mike jerger | internet: mjerger@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76220">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76220" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a pair of oakleys that cost about $100 new a year ago. i hardly ever wore them because they just don't look right on me. they are orange and blue and are the "blade" kind (terminator style). i am willing to sell these for $40 to the first response i get. i also have a bulls vs. blazers game for the snes that is in perfect condition. i am selling it for $35. it includes the instruction manual. bakerjn@sage.cc.purdue.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76222">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76222" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 my company maintains a 20,000+ mailing list which is regularly rented for oh no! someone is provided useful information and mentioned that they made money in the field. don't they know that usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation by people trying to sell their personal stuff (from houses to dead pcs) at a huge markup/trying to unload stuff they bought from their company at just under retail, and other "non-commercial" activities. a ms windows utility product in the $100 range, and is available through direct media in ct., at $0.10 per name. please let your direct mail marketing rep. know about this.. thanks. it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products. the net is not "supposed" to be a dumping ground for free ads, but reserving it for tripe doesn't seem to be a significant improvement. in addition to improper etiquette, this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail. so? either they target it well enough to pay for it, in other words, they manage to send it to people who want the stuff (in which case it is junk only for the "rest" and the transaction costs are borne appropriately in this case) or they go bankrupt. seems fair to me. am i correct in assuming this is improper, and if so, what can be done to penalize such an improper use? you could hold your breath. you could kill offending messages as they come onto your machine and refuse to send them any further, but not until you turn blue. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76225">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76225" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 apartment for rent in downtown moscow!!! 2- room furnished apartment in a very nice location. 5 minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station. walking distance to kremlin, major shopping centers, theaters, restaurants, and government buildings. hmmm... interesting. what do you mean by walking distance? i lived in moscow for 21 years, and if i am 5 minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station, i cannot be walking distance to kremlin. unless 1 hour of walking is what you mean. by the way, what is the price? i may plan a trip there (not sure yet, though) in late summer. (victorf@seas.ucla.edu) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76226">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76226" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76229">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76229" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for ultima v for the ibm, i would like the entire package (meaning i need more than just the game, i would like the docs also) since it is an old game i do not want to pay a lot of money. if you are interested in selling this game please respond to this message. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76230">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76230" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 cambridge audio integrated amp p70 - 60w stereo solid state, w/box list $600 want $340 cambridge audio tuner t50 - 8 presets list $350 want $200 cambridge audio preamp c70 - list $500 want $290 klipschorns - the klipschorns speakers...legends in there own time list ~$3k want $950...very big, corner loaded..will play to unbelieveable volumes with very little arthur_noguerola@vos.stratus.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76231">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76231" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: 1990 pontiac grand prix se 2-door coupe, white, white rims, gray interior. 58k miles (mostly highway), 3.1 litre v6 multi-port fuel-injected engine, 5 speed manual transmission. one owner. options include: a/c, rear defogger, power steering, power brakes, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power glass moonroof with sunshade, power seat/recliner (driver's), power seat/comfort/lumbar/headrest (both front seats), trunk pass-through (for skis) am/fm cassette stero (6 speakers), electronic monitor/service system with graphic compass, stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel, remote-keyless entry, and others. asking $11,500. the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot. it has been garaged and pampered. it gets an average of 27.5 mpg highway, sometimes better; city is around 19-23 mpg, depending on how it is driven. selling because of baby coming soon. need 4-door family car. will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus, mercury sable, or 4-door pontiac grand am or similar american i live in the boston,ma area. contact: mike at home: (508) 881-6312, work: (508) 490-6963, or michaelq@tlaloc.sw.stratus.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76232">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76232" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine would like to sell his 850 mb scsi drive for $800 + s/h. it is a full-height drive, and has been used for about one and a half years. if anyone is interested, please e-mail me. thank you. jeffrey berthiaume s238@cs.utexas.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76233">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76233" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'mposting this for my emplyer who doesn't have net access, (but you can reply here, and i'll get the message to him. my boss is looking for two books on the group mamas and papas papa john by john phillips california dreaming - (he told me who wrote it, but i don't remember) he'd prefer hardcover, but paperback will do. if you have these and are willing to sell, e-mail me here, and i'll pass the me ssage along. thank you scott wilson 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76234">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76234" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a hp laserjet iii for sale. it's been printed for less than 1500 pages according the self test report. i am asking $1000 for it. if interested, please e-mail. thanks! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76236">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76236" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 two lh research sm11-1 power supplies (sm10 series). 1000w, 5v, 200a (currently wired for 115vac). control lines: +/- sense, on/off, pwr. fail, high/lo margin, current monitor. they both work! (list price from lh research is $824.00 f/ qty. 1-9). asking $150 each + shipping. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76237">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76237" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 paolo,marc anthony georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt4661a internet: gt4661a@prism.gatech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76243">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76243" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 commodore 128 1571 d/s disk drive 2 joysticks 1 mouse lotsa software, both games and apps. rapid fire joystick adapter all necessary cables about a year old $95 obo c_ommon pchang@ic.sunysb.edu s_ense state university of new york @ stony brook 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76244">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76244" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a copy of the first world wrestling federation album in record format. will pay $10 for a good condition record and original album jacket and inserts. the album i am looking for has a picture of a bunch of the wrestlers ina recording studio front and back with the good guy wrestlers and the bad guy wrestlers making faces at each other. songs include 'land of a thousand dances" or something like that. please email me here at hsano@cs.ulowell.edu same account that appears on the header. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76246">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76246" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 color 19'' zenith tv for sale remote control, $60. if interested, please call 455 6948 or e-mail: peng@ece.ucsd.edu must sell by apr. 30. thank you for you attention 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76248">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76248" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a stack of records lp 33 that are from the early sixtys to mid seventys with groups like the beatles, cream, woodstock (triple album) etc etc. that i would like to get rid of. i would be willing to sell one or all for whatever resonable offer. some albums still have the original wrapper and price tag. i would like to get around $5 for each or you can call and make offer on the lot. i could list them all but i'd be typing forever. call (408) 296-4444 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76250">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76250" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: 24 pin printer - alps allegra 24 asking price: $150 shipped prepaid (c.o.d. orders pay c.o.d. shipping). features: straight paper path (won't jam). paper saving tear-off capability (no need to waste a sheet to get a current printout). programmable preferences (you don't even need a computer) letter quality 360dpi output epson lq2500 emulation built-in card slot for additional memory / font upgrades printer ribbons easily found (there are three or four sources for alps ribbons in every computer shopper). fast 180 cps output this printer has not even been used in the last two years (three years old) because i have a laser printer at work and use that originally $399. i'll even throw in two ribbons (may need simple reinkings tho). adisak pochanayon 2525 university avenue apartment j madison, wi 53705 (608) 238-2463 ---------------------------------- cut here ---------------------------------- jeez!!! it never fails, get in the tub and there's a rub at the lamp! -- the genie from aladdin. pochanay@cae.wisc.edu eddie (adisak) pochanayon check out all of silverfox software's releases.... your amiga entertainment. ---------------------------------- cut here ---------------------------------- 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76251">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76251" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the sub. says it all. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76252">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76252" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 two jack lallane gold memberships are for sale by the owners. asking for $600 for each membership. please contact padma & srini at (908) 855-8865 for details. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76255">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76255" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 from mikefran wed apr 21 11:08:28 edt 1993 article: 56 of csc.general xref: wam.umd.edu dc.forsale:5756 dc.general:6088 um.general:2342 csc.general:56 newsgroups: dc.forsale,dc.general,um.general,csc.general path: wam.umd.edu!mikefran message-id: <1993apr21.142729.7039@wam.umd.edu> followup-to: poster sender: usenet@wam.umd.edu (usenet news system) nntp-posting-host: rac3.wam.umd.edu organization: workstations at maryland, university of maryland, college park distribution: csc,um,dc 1981 volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior 5 speed transmission am/fm stereo with cassette engine in good condition new tires needs $300 work on front left control arm because of damage caused by runs well asking $800.00 as is / obo. email: mikefran@wam.umd.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76256">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76256" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 s: 88 toyota camry - top of the line vehicle blue book $10,500 asking 9,900. 73 k miles auto transmission has everything! owned by a meticulous automoble mechanic call (408) 425-8203 ask for bob. posted for a friend. *******************************************************************88888 i have a 1991 toyota camry deluxe for sale... 70k miles, power everything, grey, 3 years newer than above for $10k. all highway miles. excellent condition... rob fusi rwf2@lehigh.edu new jersey 609-397-2147 ask for bob fusi 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76260">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76260" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 |> us robotics external dual standard, latest roms/ still under warranty. |> v.32/ v.32 bis/ v.42bis mnp2-5/ hst compatible as well. b/o over 450 |> sells for well over 700 mail order. sells for $570 here (southern california) almost everywhere. dave demers demers@cs.ucsd.edu computer science & engineering 0114 demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet uc san diego ...!ucsd!cs!demers la jolla, ca 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, fax: (619) 534-7029 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76261">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76261" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm posting this for a friend, but you can e-mail questions to me at gyeh@cc.bellcore.com however, the best way to get your questions answered is to call the phone number listed. for sale: 1991 volkswagon corrado 2+2 coupe low mileage: approx. 28,000 miles 5-speed manual 7 speaker factory blaupunkt stereo system new all-weather yokohamas 205/50vr15 sun roof speed activated spoiler extra set of tires - pirelli p600 195vr15 ** equipped with factory winter package - heated seats, mirrors and nozzles. ** alpine security system with 2 remotes. all records - documentation, service pampered car, mint condition must sacrifice at $11,000 or best offer. call (908) 821-2498. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76262">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76262" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 is this not the same movie that sold at mcdonald's for $7.99?? (new)? 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76263">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76263" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hitachi cd player (needs cd spin motor) $30 shipped joysticks.. an ibm/apple joystick three fire buttons apple joy stick (//c //e) kraft track ball make offers.. coleco vision items: two working consoles w/ working controllers in great shape one roller ball controller two super action conrollers one 'standard' joystick games: sa baseball sa rocky sa football vic 20 and c64 with powersupplies and rf modulators... make an offer vic20 catridges: raid on fort knox - omega race early 80's epiphone acoustic guitar spruce top.. mohogany back, sides and neck adjustable bridge, plays very nice small hole in side for jack (had a pickup at one time) $175 + shipping yamaha cs-5 analog synthesizer three octave keyboard vco - single oscillator range from 64' to 2' tone sources - saw tooth, square, noise and external sound vca - can be modulated vcf - cut off, resonance, lfo mod, envelope generator depth pitch bend slider, cv in and out, trigger in and out, external tone source in... the keyboard is in perfect working order and is colored black and white $150 + shipping drum stuff.. north heavy duty hi hat stand $45 older stand... but definately in working shape.. could use a little clean up. comes with clutch and felts, etc.. pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater $20 honer cymbal stand $15 (needs some work on cymbal stem) zildjian 20" ride cymbal $55 main line zildjian... older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand $10 okay snare stand.. not like a remo though ;) shipping extra.. please email if you have questions about anything, please email me stephen m. jones <=> sdf.system.administrator smj@sdf.lonestar.org <cs&e> 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76264">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76264" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sale: voice processing system for ibm compatibles item: dialogic/41b multi-line voice processing system description: the dialog/41b is a pc xt/at board that provides processing functions and call progress analysis for four independent phone lines simultaneously. the d/41b features the ability to record, playback, autoanswer, auto-dial, detect and generate dtmf tones, and perform telephone mamagement functions. with this card you can make your computer talk on 4 phone lines simultaneously. you can design your own answering system or by one already programmed. you can build your own digital pager business and open up a business for voice mailboxes. comes complete with manuals and demo software and programming libraries for c (unix and dos). price: list $1395.00 you pay $795.00 for more info send mail! contact: john rost (512) 343-0332 <leave message> johnr@cactus.org <send mail> 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76268">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76268" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i participated in a promotion by a company called visual images. i attempted to cancel my order before the package arrived. i was not able to stop them and now i have a package which i do not need. nishika 3d camera, wide angle flesh, film, carring case, instruction tapes, and some jewelrys. 3 vacation vouchers to bahama, cancun, las vegas, orlando. i paid $697 for the promotion package, and the vacation vouchers came as gift. i really want to sell them, so make me an offer for the whole package. if you are participating in a award, $697 is how much you would end up paying. and i strongly believe that you would get the same award as i do. if you are interested in those items, you could get them from me for a cheaper price. let me know, and make me an offer. no flames please, i have got enough. you could reach me at koutd@hirama.hiram.edu douglas kou hiram college 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76269">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76269" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: toshiba 3300sl notebook computer. specs: 80386sl (64k cache) @ 25mhz, * 8mb * ram, 80 meg 16ms ide hard drive, 1.44meg floppy, 5.9 lbs w/ nickle hydride battery installed, edgelit greyscale vga display, ps/2 mouse port, external keyboard port, 1 pcmcia port, external expansion port, external vga port, 1 serial, 1 parallel ports, socket for 80387sl numeric coprocessor (user-installable). memory is expandable to 18meg. voted editor's choice by pc magazine. an expansion station is available from toshiba; axionics also makes one that is more power conservation options: user definable hard drive powerdown period, screen dimming, auto stepdown of cpu speed (to 12.5, 6 mhz) after definable interval, comments: purchased locally at micro center in columbus, oh 7 months ago. all original packaging, receipts, and manuals are included. under warranty. the keyboard on this machine is the best i've seen; i prefer it to the keyboard on most desktop units. i typically get 3-4 hours of battery life. the battery recharges in 2 hours to full charge. the machine is quite speedy; i run os/2 2.1beta on it currently and will leave this operating system installed unless you prefer ms-dos 5.0 (included). i'll include a padded carrying case, also made by toshiba. price/terms: $1900 (semi-firm), certified check. if outside of columbus, i will pay for cod shipping. please respond with all queries to 'grichard@cis.ohio-state.edu' or call 614-261-0902. golden richard iii osu dept. of computer and information sciences grichard@cis.ohio-state.edu (614) 292-0056 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76272">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76272" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following cassette tapes are for sale. $3.00 each... $2.50 each for multiple orders, shipping included. trades can be arranged. some of the cases are somewhat worn, with a few cracks, but the tapes are all in good condition and sound fine. e-mail to the posting account. thanks. the who -who's greatest hits bachman turner overdrive -best of bto (so far) van halen the doors -the best of the doors the cars -door to door -the cars greatest hits phil collins -face value -no jacket required tears for fears -songs from the big chair david hillman "nothing measurable matters the university of chicago a very good god damn..." dahillma@midway.uchicago.edu e.e. cummings 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76273">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76273" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 1991 toyota camry deluxe model 5 sp power windows power door locks power steering power brakes am/fm cassette 70k highway miles excellent condition $9800 (914) 335-6984 day (until 5pm) (609) 397-2147 (after 7pm) ask for bob fusi rob fusi rwf2@lehigh.edu e-mail or call for more info.... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76276">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76276" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 my 14" compacq vga monitor id dead due to the transformer's failure. if you have this part and would like to get rid of it, pls let me know. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76277">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76277" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following used cd's are for sale. they are each $8 unless otherwise marked. i will pay for the shipping and handling costs. if you are interested in any just e-mail me at awakhras@phoenix.princeton.edu. at that point we will figure out the payment and mailing procedure. artist title robbie robertson storyville love and rockets love and rockets jeff lynne armchair theatre elvis costello mighty like a rose public image ltd 9 neneh cherry raw like sushi bobby brown don't be cruel depeche mode black celebration traveling wilburys vol. 1 bad company 10 from 6 soul ii soul vol. ii-1990 a new decade the godfathers more songs about love and hate paul mccartney flowers in the dirt simply red stars prince graffitti bridge amer akhras awakhras@phoenix.princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76279">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76279" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 im looking to but a sharp el5200 scientific calculator. the model is discontinued, but if you know of any dealer which may have them around, please reply. "does the word 'duh' mean | jason adam kahana anything to you?" | kahana@ils.nwu.edu | northwestern university buffy, the vampire slayer. | the institute for the learning sciences 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76281">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76281" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 looking for a video in and out video card for the ibm. one that will allow you to watch tv (coax) or video in, and will do video out, digitize pictures. and if i am in windows, and would like to be able to look the rca out for the card to my tv and have it display on there, as well as dos apps. i heard of these snes and genesis copiers, that will copy any games, are those for real? message was posted at outlan.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca #403-478-4010 hst and v.32bis try it, you'll like it! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76284">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76284" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following 45 rpm singles for sale. most are collectable 7-inch records with picture sleeves. price does not include postage which is $1.21 for the first record, $1.69 for two, etc. rolling stones|19th nervous brakdown (london picture sleeve)|$10 rolling stones|jumpin jack flash (london picture sleeve)|$10 rolling stones|mothers little helper (london picture sleeve)|$10 rolling stones|paint it, black (london picture sleeve)|$10 if you are intereste, please contact: michael mchugh mmchugh@andy.bgsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76285">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76285" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 northwest air tix - save $30 any flight i have a $400 credit with northwest airlines which must be used by nov 27, 1993. there is a $50 charge to change the ticket, so i will sell it for $320. it can be used for any northwest flight, but i don't think they will refund cash. please contact me at tallen@corp.hp.com or (415)857-5878. tom allen 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76286">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76286" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have one original sam (symantec antivirus for macintosh) v3.0 for sale. it comes with three program discs and one user manual. will work with 800k and 1.4mb disc drives. selling for $17.90 (make an offer) which includes postage. respond to: michael mchugh mmchugh@andy.bgsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76288">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76288" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 selling x-men for the c64/128 for only $10 plus shipping. first email gets it... -dennis l. neal dlneal@cbda9.apgea.army.mil 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76290">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76290" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 roland hs-60 (synthplus 60) - 6 voice polyphonic fully programmable analog synthesizer - 61 full size keys - memory to store 128 patches - built in speakers - connectors: midi in thru out, input(2), expansion pedal, head phones, tape load & save, patch shift, pedal hold, output(2) asking $225 harmon@mps.ohio-state.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76294">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76294" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hey!!! i've just upgraded my laptop to a windows-capable one, so i don't need my dos word processor anymore. it's a great word processor. easy-to-use, undemanding on the system, and best of all, it has a wysiwyg editing mode. this is something word perfect doesn't have!! and all i'm asking is $65 + shipping. it even comes with several hundred dollars of free utilities!!! $65 for a full-featured wysiwyg word processor!!! perfect for a laptop, or a lower powered machine! check this out: ca> it has: ca> - wysiwyg-mode editing (word perfect still trying to do ca> this!) ca> - graphics-importing, scaling, and resizing (comes ca> with free art!) ca> - scalable fonts (30 typefaces included!) ca> indentical from screen to printer! (see below for more info ca> on font generator) ca> - on-line spell-checking and thesaurus ca> (see below for more info!) ca> - great 10-level outliner! ca> - multiple columns ca> - dual-document opening and editing ca> - line and box drawing ca> - search and replace ca> - cut, copy, insert, and paste between documents and inside ca> documents ca> - justification control ca> - resettable margins, tabs, and line-spacing ca> - savable layouts ca> - headers, footers, page numbering ca> - table of contents ca> - multiple rulers in one document ca> - mail merge ca> ca> also included as free utilities: ca> - publisher's powerpak font engine: this gives pfs:write ca> scalable fonts in sizes from 4pt to 72pt! support for ca> screen (in write) and printer (even 9-pin dot-matrix looks ca> great!). comes with 30 typefaces. supports subscripts and ca> superscripts, too! ca> - grammatik iv: the grammar and style ca> checker. comes with a quick reference card for easy use. ca> it really helped my punctuation and usage! ca> - international correctspell english and roget's electronic ca> thesaurus: th dictionary and thesuarus pack is published by ca> the publishers of the american hertiage dictionary. if you ca> can't trust them with your words, who can you trust? ca> - clickart business images: a sampler of the clickart ca> library. perfect for importing into pfs:write documents. ca> ca> i bought this product 1 year ago for $129. its easy to use ca> and turns out great-looking documents, even on a dot-matrix ca> printer. so if you want wysiwyg editing for your dos-computer ca> now, pfs:write is here! ca> ca> i'm looking to get $65. it comes with full ca> documentation, registration cards, the box (its still in ca> good condition), both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" disks for pfs:write ca> and grammatik, and the clickart on a 3 1/2" disk. the ca> utilities pfs:write comes with are worth $300 alone, so $65 ca> for a full-featured wp is a real bargain. buyer pays ca> shipping. ca> ca> please respond by email to carolan@owlnet.rice.edu ca> or call (713) 520-5720 ca> ca> bryan dunne 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76295">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76295" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: vcr - samsung vr2610 basic 2 head machine. it has a problem loading the tape, otherwise it plays and records just fine, remote is missing. $25 or make offer. cassette deck - pioneer ct-f900, three head, servo control, dolby. this was the top of the line (or close to it) several years ago. the rewind doesn't work well. all else is fine. service & owners manual included. $45 or offer. generator - 120 vac 2000-2500 watt, has a voltmeter w/duplex outlet, a 5 hp engine should drive it to full output. manufactered by master mechanic in burlington wisconsin. $50 or make an offer eico model 625 tube tester. $20 or make offer lawn spreader - scott "precision flow" model pf-1 drop type, excellent condition, ideal for a smaller yard. $20 or make offer. craig days: 979-0059 home: 293-5739 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76296">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76296" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following for sale: ti 855 printer in excellect working condition $100 + postage game = the lost files of sherlock holmes original box and contents used 1 time and unregistered $30 + postage if iterested email me at: email = caldwell@epcot.spdc.ti.com and i will hold it for you. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76299">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76299" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 apartment for rent in downtown moscow!!! 2- room furnished apartment in a very nice location. 5 minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station. walking distance to kremlin, major shopping centers, theaters, restaurants, and government buildings. available in early june. please, call: (614)-459-4256 or send e-mail: vsloutsk@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76300">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76300" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 items for sale - price listed or best offer!!!!!!! kfc svga monitor 1024x768 .28dp non-interlaced 14" screen, still under warranty! (brand new) $ 290.00 1200 baud compuadd modem box/docs/software $ 20.00 cga monitor with cga/parallel card $ 30.00 sco unix v3.2.2 unlimited user os, has the base and extended utilities, and uucp $ 150.00 turbo c/turbo c++ the complete reference book. $ 15.00 serial i/o card 1 serial port $ 10.00 joystick, three button $ 10.00 ide controller with 2 serial, 1 parallel and one game port 2 available. $ 10.00each (210)545-4741, ask for ralf 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76305">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76305" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for a singer featherweight 221 sewing machine (old, black sewing machine in black case). please contact: mary flagle-lee mlf@unlinfo.unl.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76308">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76308" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 nice little, really compact, cream colored, 1200 external modem. good for the mac or ibm. i will throw in a cable for an extra $5 or so. if you are interested email me an offer. khoh@usc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76310">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76310" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have for sale teh uswest searchdisc cdrom phone directory. this has the names, phone number, address, business/residence information for all regions covered by us west. states includes oregon, washington, colorado, new mexico, arizona, idaho, wyoming, montana, utah, minnesota, nebraska, iowa, north dakota, and south dakota. have have two cdrom disks, one for june 1992, the other for oct. 1992. if you are interested, make an offer, thanks. khoh@usc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76313">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76313" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following busines books/best sellers for sale. all in excellent order. if you are interested email me an offer... 1. zapp: the lightning of empowerment..............william pyham, jeff cox harmony books 2. beware the naked man who offers you his shirt...harvey mackay william, morrow & co 3. what they still don't reach you at harvard .....mark h. mccormack bantam books 4. megatrends 2000: 10 new directions for the 90's.john nisbitt/p. aburdene william, morrow & co 5. phone power....................................george walther putnam books 6. what every supervisor should know..............liester r bittel, j.newstrom mcgraw-hill 7. maximarketing: new directions in advertising...stan rapps, tom collins mcgraw-hill 8. outsmarting the competition....................john mcgongale, jr 9. professional speaking..........................lilyan wilder simon & schuster 10. managing management time......................william ocken jr. prentice hall 11. getting praised raised and recognized........muriel solomon prentice hall 12. getting what you want: how to reach agreement..kare anderson 13. let's talk quality..........................philip b. crosby mcgraw hill 14. frontal attack, divide and conquer.........richard buskirk 15. den of thieves...........................james b. stewart simon & schuster 16. 20/20 vision..............................stanley davis, bill davidson fireside: simon & schuster if you are intersted, email please. khoh@usc.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76314">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76314" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 items for sale - price listed or best offer!!!!!!! kfc svga monitor 1024x768 .28dp non-interlaced 14" screen, still under warranty! (brand new) $ 275.00 1200 baud compuadd modem box/docs/software $ 15.00 cga monitor with cga/parallel card $ 30.00 sco unix v3.2.2 unlimited user os, has the base and extended utilities, and uucp $ 125.00 turbo c/turbo c++ the complete reference book. $ 15.00 serial i/o card 1 serial port $ 10.00 joystick, three button $ 10.00 ide controller with 2 serial, 1 parallel and one game port. $ 10.00each (210)545-4741, ask for ralf 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76315">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76315" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a roberto clemente 1969 topps baseball card for sale, in near-mint condition (really as close to mint condition as you can get). it lists for $55 in my most recent baseball card pricelist for may. i am offering it for $50 and i'll pay the certified postage to ship it to you. please respond to jack.t.sendak@office.wang.com or at 1-800-999-3732 ext. 5269 in maryland. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76318">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76318" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i've got 2 foot switches for sale. they appear to be designed for studio use (ie: they're very well built) - 1" in diameter, 6' cord. i'd like $15, but i'd also like to sell them, so make me an also i just bought a new ibanez guitar so i need to sell one of my others. it's a kramer with passive emg pickups (2 single, one double). these pickups sound great and are whisper-quiet. i'd like to get $250 for it. settle down, raise a family join the pta, buy some sensible shoes, and a chevrolet and party 'till you're broke and they drag you away. it's ok. al yankovic 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76321">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76321" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following software for sale, prices are neogotiable, ms-window 3.1, by gateway, with manuals, $20 ms-work with manuals, $30 pc-tools 7.1 with all manuals, $40 ms-dos 6.0! $20 all softwares are almost new 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76322">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76322" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a hp28s or hp28sx calculator. if anyone has one they are getting rid of please let me know. reply to jmparkin@mtu.edu | jeremy parkinson aka slimy | "i'd give my right arm to be ambitexterous." | jmparkin@mtu.edu | unknown 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76324">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76324" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 please reply to the seller below. 210m formatted scsi hard disk 3.5" rodime 3259ts (3 available) new drives, unused capacity, formatted mbytes: 210.0 number of data heads: 5 number of cylinders: 1,235 track density, tpi: 1700 positioning times - track-to-track 5ms average 18ms full stroke (max) 20ms rotational speed, rpm: 3600 avg. rotational latency: 8.33ms scsi bus transfer rate: 4m/sec cache: 48k guaranteed against doa works with sun, pc, mac, & misc. other workstations these are internal drives no external drive enclosure is included price: $225 each, including cod insured shipping within the continental u.s. please email responses to: \\lee lee%polarsun@rna.rockefeller.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76326">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76326" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale sony 8mm camcorder model pro v9 - top-of-the-line a few years ago. - autofocus with macro capability - 6x zoom - 5 lux rating - 360,000-pixel ccd chip, the best made for a 8mm camcorder - av input/output jacks (all cables included) - rf convertor/switcher for tv without av input - ac adaptor/charger - 1.5a battery - neck trap - user's manual - mint condition list price for this model was $1600, i paid $1330 mail-order a few years ago. will sacrifice for $500 or best offer. reason for sale: upgrade to hi8 model. | @ @ @ @ john n. le (708) 713-4564 | | @ @@ @ @ at&t bell labs, naperville, il usa | | @ @ @ @@ @ email: uucp: ..!att!ihlpe!jnl | | @@ @ @ @@@@ internet: jnl@ihlpe.att.com | 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76330">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76330" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 * steve shapiro * all views and opinions expressed * * sks computer consulting, inc. * are my own and are offered as-is * * steve.shapiro@f440.n101.z1.fidonet.org bbs: (508) 664-6354 n81 * 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76331">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76331" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if both paries do this, then the transaction will obviously be cod. this allows both parties to exercise the amount of trust they see fit. cod is fine until the buyer opens the box to find they paid 150.00 for a brick. or if it the seller allows for a personal check to be used on a cod it's fine till a stop payment is made. there are few methods to protect both buyer and seller in any sort of transaction. even with merchants and customers there are problems...stolen credit cards, chargebacks, no return policies and getting the wrong item, etc. about the only protection available to to do business with someone you trust....someone who has been around for a while. jeff freeman 1-800-go-porch toll-free front porch computers 1-706-695-1888 <voice> rt 2 box 2178 1-706-695-1990 <fax> chatsworth, ga 30705 75260,21 compuserve id # internet: jfreeman@frontporch.win.net 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76332">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76332" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 claris filemaker pro database manager for macintosh, still unpackaged. $150 or best offer. please call (415) 824 6209; ***do not*** respond to this account. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76333">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76333" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 from mikefran wed apr 21 10:55:39 edt 1993 article: 56 of csc.general xref: wam.umd.edu dc.forsale:5756 dc.general:6088 um.general:2342 csc.general:56 newsgroups: dc.forsale,dc.general,um.general,csc.general path: wam.umd.edu!mikefran message-id: <1993apr21.142729.7039@wam.umd.edu> followup-to: poster sender: usenet@wam.umd.edu (usenet news system) nntp-posting-host: rac3.wam.umd.edu organization: workstations at maryland, university of maryland, college park distribution: csc,um,dc 1981 volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior 5 speed transmission am/fm stereo with cassette engine in good condition new tires needs $300 work on front left control arm because of damage caused by runs well asking $800.00 as is / obo. email: mikefran@wam.umd.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76335">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76335" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i've got an eimac 818a/4pr1000a transmitter/linear amplifier tube, unused, in original packaging (but opened and inventoried). i'd guarantee this tube to operate and be as observation and its paperwork say (unused), although i have no transmitter to test it with. offers? dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76336">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76336" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i can no longer use anything japanese. kenwood, yeasu, icom, alinco, its all junk. well, i'm not sure i'd go quite that far, but i agree that motorola gear is of better quality. the question is how much that quality is worth to a ham in amateur service, not commercial service this radio can hear a repeater thats 40 miles away without an antenna. ok, great. but how often does that come up? how good is "good enough", and how much is someone willing to pay for it? a good ham-quality ht is maybe $500, while a commercial quality one is maybe $2000. is the increased reliability and performance worth 4 times the price *in amateur service*? only the individual involved can answer that question, and each ham has to decide for him/herself. if motorola quality is worth 4 times the price to you, then more power to ya'. but i'm amazed that folks make that choice. for, me, given that i've got $2000 to spend, i'l pick the yaesu ht and a nice new hf rig every time over a motorola ht alone, no matter how good it is. to me, ham-quality gear is "good enough". to each his own... 73... mike, n4pdy * these are my opinions only.* 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76338">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76338" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 digitally-tuned shorwave radio with alarm clock and 5 presets per band. has am, fm, sw1, and sw2 bands. asking $25 + shppg. reply for more details. thanks pete 3mwieu4@cmuvm.cmich.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76343">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76343" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 photographic spring cleaning! following is partial list, with more to come soon: -for exakta: tessar 2.8/50 lens, plus front cap, case meyer oreston 1.9/50 lens, plus front cap spiratone telxtender model ii, plus orig case piesker & co. (berlin) extension bellows (4x-12x), in orig. box. entire package for $30. plus shipping. -for pentax or other "universal" screw-mount cameras: spiratone 3.5/35 lens, plus caps fujinon 1.8/55 lens, orig. case aetna coligon 2.8/135 lens, plus caps entire package $25. plus shipping. -enlarging lenses: prinz 4.5/150 $10. el-nikkor 4.0/50 $45. rodenstock ysaron 4.5/150 $75. -busch pressman model c, 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 with wollensak velostigmat 4.5/101 in rapax shutter, $85. -hexacon slr, with tessar 2.8/50, plus case. shutter is sluggish, but it's a "collectible", thus $25. -rolleicord v, synchro-compur, xenar 3.5/75, with case, orig. lens cap. some fool got oil on the shutter blades, so shutter is sluggish. $60. -olympus om2-n body, oil (?) in viewfinder, appears to work fine other- wise. no lens. $75. -cotact printing frame, 35mm, 6 strips of 6@, lockdown plate-glass cover, excellent condition. $10. -omega s.s. developing tank, (2) 35 mm reels $12. -nikkor s.s. developing tank, (7) 120 reels $45. -kodak polycontrast filter set $10. prices above exclusive of shipping. conserve bandwith and don't come back with petty offers... however, i will consider trades of "interesting" exakta equipment for, or toward, any of the above. still digging out: leitz reprovit iia, minox enlarger, busch pressman 4 x 5, nikkor reels and tanks, some 4 x 5 lenses/shutters, 5 x 7 lenses/shutters. e-mail if interested, and thanks for reading this. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76344">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76344" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 c&t chip set 286-12 mother board c&t bios with 2 meg ram (80ns). reply with reasonable offer if you are interested... thanks! :) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76347">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76347" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 must sell: 1988 toyota camry le -- car has ac, ps, pb, sunroof, am/fm cassette radio, cruise control, etc. 61000 miles. white with red interior. car is in excellent condition. it is located in the paramus, nj area. $7900 or best offer. if interested please call 201-666-9207 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76348">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76348" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 heya all, i've got a pair of oakley forsale there are frogskins, with aurborn red. there are no scratches and only used them once or twice last summer. i'm looking for about 25-30 dollars but please give me a bid. i'm am looking for the following items a bubble jet printer that works and is el cheapo... i was looking for a cannon bj-5 but if u have a bubble jet to sell please tell me. i'm looking to spend about $100 or so. a sound cards (sound blaster compatible). again i'm looking fer something cheap, such as $50 or so dollars. address "whirley@sage.cc.purdue.edu" 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76351">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76351" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a new (opened box, tested drive) toshiba mk438fb disk for sale. 3.5" 877 mb formatted 12 ms scsi-2 3 year warranty i thought this would work, but i need a larger drive for my system. asking $900.00. this is a great opportunity. let me hear from you. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76352">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76352" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following comics are for auction. the highest bid takes them! title minimum/current alpha flight 51 (jim lee's first work at marvel) $ 5.00 aliens 1 (1st app aliens in comics, 1st prnt, may 1988) $20.00/krism./sold amazing spider-man 136 (intro new green goblin) $20.00 amazing spider-man 238 (1st appearance hobgoblin) $50.00 archer and armstrong 1 (frank miller/smith/layton) $ 7.50 avengers 263 (1st appearance x-factor) $ 3.50 bloodshot 1 (chromium cover, bwsmith cover/poster) $ 5.00/same/three cyberrad 1 (reintro cyberrad, prestige silver edition) $15.00 daredevil 158 (frank miller art begins) $35.00 dark horse presents 1 (1st app concrete, 1st printing) $ 7.50 detective 657 (azrael appears, intro cypher) $ 5.00 detective 658 (azrael appears) $ 4.00 harbinger 10 (1st appearance h.a.r.d. corps) $ 7.00/b.matthey/sold h.a.r.d. corps 1 $ 5.00 incredible hulk 324 (1st app grey hulk since #1 1962) $ 7.00 incredible hulk 330 (1st mcfarlane issue) $15.00 incredible hulk 331 (grey hulk series begins) $11.00 incredible hulk 367 (1st dale keown art in hulk) $15.00 incredible hulk 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, keown) $15.00 marvel comics presents 1 (wolverine, silver surfer) $ 7.50 marvel presents (charleston chew giveaway, sam keith) $ 5.00 maxx limited ashcan (4000 copies exist, blue cover) $33.50/brentb/sold mr t. #1 (signed advance copy, 10,000 exist) $10.00 new mutants 86 (mcfarlane cover, 1st app cable - cameo) $10.00 new mutants 100 (1st app x-force) $ 5.00 new mutants annual 5 (1st liefeld art on new mutants) $10.00 omega men 3 (1st appearance lobo) $ 7.50 omega men 10 (1st full lobo story) $ 7.50 power man & iron fist 78 (3rd appearance sabretooth) $20.00 power man & iron fist 84 (4th appearance sabretooth) $15.00 simpsons comics and stories 1 (polybagged special ed.) $ 7.50 spectacular spider-man 147 (1st app new hobgoblin) $12.50 spider-man special (unicef giveaway, vs venom) $10.00 star trek the next generation 1 (feb 1988, dc mini) $ 7.50 star trek the next generation 1 (oct 1989, dc comics) $ 7.50 trianglehead #1 (special limited edition, autographed) $ 5.00 web of spider-man 29 (hobgoblin, wolverine appear) $10.00 web of spider-man 30 (origin rose, hobgoblin appears) $ 7.50 wolverine 10 (before claws, 1st battle with sabretooth) $15.00 wolverine 41 (sabretooth claims to be wolverine's dad) $ 5.00 wolverine 42 (sabretooth proven not to be his dad) $ 3.50 wolverine 43 (sabretooth/wolverine saga concludes) $ 3.00 wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, miller art) $20.00 wonder woman 267 (return of animal man) $12.50 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, x-force card) $20.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, shatterstar card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, deadpool card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, sunspot/gideon) $10.00 all comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. some titles i have posted here don't list every issue i have of that title, i tried to save space. geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76355">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76355" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 didn't mcdonald's sell copies of "dances with wovies" for $7 not too long ago? they were also selling "babes in toyland" (the scott baio version!) and something even more forgettable. just think: video drive-thru........ "i'll take a mcrib, a mcchicken, and a copy of debbie does mcdallas to go" "do you want fries and napkins with that?" --bob (his3rrb@caball.vcu.edu) "after this post, i'm really going to start studying.......really..." 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76357">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76357" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following complete camera kits for sale: minolta with three lenses. ricoh with zoom lens. nikon 35 mm autofocus. $50. nikkor 50/1.8 mint. $60. e-mail for more details. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76359">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76359" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 great slr camera (ricoh) for sale. has all the nikon fe features, and also shutter speeds form 16 seconds and down. excellent condition. with accessories such as a zoom lens. very reasonable price. send e-mail. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76360">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76360" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a fresh stock of s-vhs broadcast master tapes, in album covers, forsale. all unopened and still in plastic. i will sell the lot for $50 (they are worth around $75 at discount video warehouse). (fuji broadcast master ) send e-mail. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76361">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76361" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an-12 air cargo transport aircraft (with the complete technical repair in 1993 ). terms of delivery: 1. the price of the aircraft is $840000. 2. the price of leasing is $42800 per month with the guarantee flight time more than 60 hours. this price includes : a) the price of the aircraft. b) the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots. the price of leasing does not include : a) the fuel price. b) the price of technical service. c) taxes , airport taxes, air navigations expenses, the payments of hangspace. d) loading, unloading and insurance cargo. e) days payments for pilot, food and accomodation expenses,transport expenses. terms are negotiable. if you are interested, please contact at your earliest convenients. respectedly yours. andrey divaev. moscow tel: (095) 305-71-30 fax: (095) 305-72-60 "rusian tools" ltd. co. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76362">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76362" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 one way omaha to seattle ticket in my name [jessamyn west] for travel 5/9. must be picked up at omaha airport [or thereabouts] on 5/6. continental airlines. make me an offer. reply to jwest@hamp.hampshire.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76363">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76363" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 having upgraded to a supra 9600 fax modem, my supra 2400 modem is for sale at 50$ + s/h. approx 1.3 years old. excellent working condition. send email rosen@ringer.cs.utsa.edu, or call at 210-691-5696. bruce rosen 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76364">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76364" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale ftp software, inc. pc/tcp (networking software for dos) version 2.04 (***) with lan driver for 3c503 cards, others you can get from ftp itself, serial numbers, orignal diskettes., tcp/ip telnet/ftp/ping/lpr/finger etc.... 6 copies, cheap. $45.00 each. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76366">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76366" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 car audio products for sale... kicker (stillwater designs) - ss10x2: 2 10" kickers in a sealed box. the box is manufactured direct from kicker. (instructions). *******asking $175 + shipping kicker (stillwater designs) - 2 kicker 12" subwoofers. (instructions). *******asking $175 + shipping (sold as a pair only!) kenwood kac923 amp - 220 watts x 2. 2 ohm stable (box & instruction included). *******asking $375 + shipping im selling the above item for a friend without internet access... you can either e-mail me or call him (mike metalios) at (410)665-5773. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76367">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76367" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 =car audio system items:= sony xr-7070 head unit (radio): pullout 20 w x 4 max. dolby b. controls all sony cd changers: disc/track select; track/disc scan; repeat; shuffle play. features auto reverse; logic controls. 6am/18fm presets; strong station memory; preset scan; tuner monitor; seek/manual tuning; mono/stereo and local/dx switches. metal tape compatible. fader.......orig $299 sony cdx-a15 10 disc cd changer: 4x oversampling, dual d/a converters with single clock design. features one-beam laser; spring and silicon-charged suspension system; horizontal or vertical mounting; 13-pin din connector; 10-disc magazine; connecting cable. 5-20,000 hz; 0.05% thd.......orig $399 **** asking **** $450 for both the radio (cd controller) and the cd changer. there are no problems with either unit and they are both in reasonably good condition. (the radio and cd changers will only be sold together.). two (2) coustic amp-360: 3 channels; bridgeable. 30w x 2 + 105w x 1 into 4 ohms from 20-20,000 hz with 0.09% thd. 1 channel - 150w x 1 into 4 ohms from 20-20,000 hz with 0.2% thd or 2 channels - 65w x 2 into 4 ohms from 20-20,000 hz with 0.09% thd. 2 ohm stable. features pwm switching power supply w/ protection circuits.......orig $249 **** asking **** $150/each. the units are in good working condition and are currently being used to supply power to my subs (can demonstrate power ratings!!). if you are interested in any of the above items, or have any questions drop me some e-mail. foxfire@access.digex.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76372">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76372" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 computer hardware ( all are working fine last time checked ) tandy 360k external floppy drive with cable (hardly used) ..................... $70 ( all software include original manual ) ( some even with registeration card. ) per$onal financial accountant - financial statements - balance sheet - income & expense - etc ... ......................... $8 ainsworth keyboard trainer (typing teacher) ............. $8 easy working tri-pack (includes following ... ) - filer -- database to store all kinds of information - planner -- spreadsheet - writer -- an easy to use word processor - great for simple calculations, work processing..etc. .................. $8 inside the norton utilities, revised and expanded - by brady books - authored by rob krumm - introduction by peter norton, maker of norton utilities - includes detachable quick reference card to norton utilities - shows you how to get the most from * the norton utilities - standard edition * the norton utilities - advanced edition * norton commander (1.0 - 3.0) * norton editor * norton disk doctor * plus the peter norton on-line guides - "the only book that does full justice to the power and variety of all the norton utility software" - peter norton - price originally was $24.95 asking .................................. $14.95 turbo pascal express revised (one disk) - 250+ ready-to-run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster, more powerful, and easier to use - equipment determination routines and access to expanded memory - extensive keyboard and mouse input functions - extremely fast video facilities, including text-graphics routines for fancy menus and windows - routines for bit operations and data compression - routines for elaborate printer control, formatting, and error recovery - powerful routines for searching directory trees and displaying tree diagrams - detailed information about writing other assembly routines for assembly language programmers - original price was $39.95 asking ........................ $22.95 hard disk power w/ the jamsa disk utilities (two disks) - complete guide to hard disk efficiency - power techniques for maximum pc performance - understand how your hard disk works - beneath the surface - original price was $39.95 asking ........................ $22.95 * prices does not include shipping * prices are negotiable please contact jian at 1(317)495-3732 or e-mail to jlz@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (preferred) if you are interested. | jian liang zhen | lifeforms are extinct on other planets because | | jlz@sonata.cc.purdue.edu | their science is more advanced than ours. | |____________/---| dos < windows < desqview = os/2 < unix |---\_____________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76378">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76378" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 kirsch pull down window shades - white, light filtering - 73.25" wide, 72" high, can be cut to width - brand new, unopened - "best quality", vinyl coated cotton - mounting brackets included - $35 (bought at $60 at j.c.penney) rajaram@sun.com (w) 415/336-5194 (h) 510/796-9932 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76379">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76379" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi fellows, i still have got bunch of 386dx-25 intel cpu and 387dx-25 intel buy a set for $79 + $5.00 for shipping. individually 80386dx-25 = $42 + $5.00 = $47.00 and 80387dx-25 = $42 + $5.00 = $47.00 if interested, respond here or call 408/942-9690 fax 408/942-9693 rtd@spectrx.saigon.com (ramesh daryani) spectrox systems +1.408.252.1005 silicon valley, ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76381">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76381" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 nikon l35 af camera. 35/2.8 lens and camera case. package $50 send e-mail 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76394">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76394" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale...: **brand new** hewlett packard toner cartridge model number hp 92295a. o i am selling this toner because i recently bought a brother hl-10v printer and the toner that i am selling. i activated the toner, but ended up returning the printer. the store, however would not take back the toner. this toner has been used to print only three pages and is in perfect condition. i will protect it for shipment so that no toner escapes. it comes with all original packaging and manuals. the toner is compatible with any laser printer that uses the model number of the toner i am selling; just look in your manual to see if it will work for you. i will not go below $60.00. i will pay the shipping to anywhere in the continental united states. if you are interested, leave me email or call kirk peterson at (303) 494-7951 anytime. thank you! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76396">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76396" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 posting for a friend: please call steve, 415 252-1618, if interested. sega genesis games for sale. in original boxes with original manuals. approximately 1 month old. -- john madden football '93, electronic arts, $40.00 obo -- ecco the dolphin, sega,, $40.00 obo again, i'm posting for a friend. if interested, call: 415 252-1618 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76405">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76405" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am looking for a tandem bicycle, any make, any model, and any condition. i would prefer a complete bike, but just a tandem frameset is ok, too. please email me if you have one for sale. p.s. i will pay shipping from anywhere in canada or u.s. john y. ching (jching@watnow.waterloo.edu) pattern analysis and machine intelligence group department of systems design engineering university of waterloo, canada 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76406">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76406" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a 1.2gb full size seagate scsi2 disk for sale. model no. is st41200n this is a brand new disk, never been used or formatted. send me your offer at lohia@bharat.aux.apple.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76414">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76414" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am selling joe montana sportstalk football '93 for the genesis for 30 bucksm which will include shipping. firt come first some. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76418">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76418" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 someone please buy these books!!!!! i am not asking much!!!!!! just make me an offer and i will probably take it!!!!! * writing good software in fortran, graham smith. * the holt handbook by kirszner & mandell (copyright 1986) 720+ page writing guide. * general chemistry principles & modern applications, r. petrucci, fourth edition. big book! very good condition! * solutions manual for chemistry book. paperback. * study guide for chemistry book. paperback. send me your offers via email at 02106@chopin.udel.edu 02106@chopin.udel.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76419">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76419" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have some desert storm cards for sale. i have divided them up into two lots. i will take the highest bid before 4/30/93. just drop me a line with your bid. lot #1 desert storm (coalition for peace, topps) cards# 38,3,16,28(s),8(s),71,30,34*2,69,48,2,79,15,16(s),66,69,17,21,26 85,25,17(s),18,6,86,23,49 2nd series(topps) cards# 118,111,92,104,115,160,95,162,31(s),136,110,123 147,107,164,108,170 lot #2 desert storm (pro set) cards# 44,87,120,196,229,19,74,121,153,208,47,100,150,187,13,58,178,217 22,94,142,197,227,4,108,174,228,6,89,137,190,205,23,82,128,199,211 (s) - sticker card 02106@chopin.udel.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76422">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76422" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sharp brand "pocket computer" model pc-1246 dimensions; 3.5 x 5 x 0.5 inches. has 15-digit lcd display 53 rubber keys (w/alphabet) built-in basic prog.language an 11-pin-socketed interface for optional cassette drive. (don't have) slide-over/reversable plastic cover. sorry, no owners manual. a program or two still in memory. asking $15 + shipping (about $2 in u.s.) thanks pete 3mwieu4@cmuvm.cmich.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76423">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76423" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale 1945 king feature syndicate jaymar specialty company 200 fifth avenue new york, ny cardboard puzzle - no box pieces worn from use no missing pieces size: 13 3/4 inches by 21 1/2 inches 60 puzzle pieces puzzle depicts dagwood, blondie, the kids, and dog daisey with her puppies on a picnic with dagwood and alexander trying to get a fishing line out of a tree. $10.00 plus shipping charges i can be reached by email or call: judy diehl (219) 838-8234 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76424">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76424" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following cd's for sale for $5 each plus shipping body count - (without "cop killer") yo! mtv raps (volume 1) skid row (1st album) bryan adams - waking up the neighbours temple of the dog c + c music factory - gonna make you sweat ibm pc games - eye of the beholder 2 with cluebook - $25 pools of darkness - $18 jet fighter 2 - $18 books - ancient egypt, a social history (retail $26, will sell for $8) encyclopedia of ancient egypt (hardcover, 283 pages) - $18 encyclopedia of physics (hardcover, 1371 pages, 1990) - $25 + shipping also on books and games yes, i haggle! e-mail offers to vormooth@athena.mit.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76426">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76426" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following games for sale/trade. make an offer. hu-cards: r-type alien crush tricky kick ninja spirit somer assault cd: lords of the rising sun sherlock holmes oplinger@ra.crd.ge.com <#include standard.disclaimer> 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76428">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76428" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following games for sale/trade. make an offer. trouble shooter where in time is carmen sandiego? oplinger@ra.crd.ge.com <#include standard.disclaimer> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76429">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76429" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following lds for sale 20 for 1st 15 each additional, postage (3rd class) paid. project a-ko (japanese - no english) dominion act-i (japanese - no english) dominion act-ii (japanese - no english) far from the madding crowd (lbx) west side story (lbx) ben hur (p&s) the dirty dozen (p&s) star trek v (p&s) the fabuluos fleischer folio vol 1 tom and jerry classics bugs bunny classics oplinger@ra.crd.ge.com <#include standard.disclaimer> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76430">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76430" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following marx brothers tapes forsale. i would like to sell them as a batch if possible. all (except *) are new, carfully stored copies i bought. i now own the laserdisks. mgm/ua: a day at the races at the circus the big store hourse feathers the cocoanuts duck soup* animal crackers* oplinger@ra.crd.ge.com <#include standard.disclaimer> 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76431">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76431" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have an old optonica tuner and integrated amp that i no longer use. the integrated amp section does not work right now but should not cost much to fix. i believe that it is just a chip. i have used it as a preamp and it works great! this is a very nice looking and well built set. they both are low profile but the amp is rather heavy. the tuner is in fine working condition and is a match to the amp. the amp is rated at 75w/ch. these peices went for about $850 new. i would like to get $150. obo for the pair. if anybody has knowledge anough to fix the amp, i have had an estimate done that it should cost less than $50 in parts. please email me if you are interested. i will be moving back home for the summer and will sell it back there if i do not do so here. (___________________________________ % todd premo / / / % purdue universtiy / __ __ / __ / % environmental engineering 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76432">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76432" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a onkyo integrated amplifier that i am looking to get rid of. 60w/ch works great integra series not a problem asking $100 obo if your interested call me at 317-743-2656 or email this address. make me an offer!!! (___________________________________ % todd premo / / / % purdue universtiy / __ __ / __ / % environmental engineering 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76433">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76433" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ************* 1989 honda accord lx *************** light brown, four door power windows, power brakes power locks, power steering, power antenna am/fm cassette, totally cloth interior. very nice! 70,000 miles but excellent condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!! must sell, quit my job to go back to school. blue book $9,200 in idaho asking only $8,000 obo email bartmich@cwis.isu.edu phone 208-233-8039 pocatello, idaho :-> from michael barta's amiga2000 <-: send email to :-> i.s.u. electronics student <-: bartmich@cwis.isu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76435">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76435" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 minolta fd 50 mm lens for sale. good condition. asking $30. rupin.dang@dartmouth.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76437">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76437" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 swell items for sale - hardly any computer stuff o lotus 1-2-3 student edition for dos ...................... $10.00 this does just about everything that standard 1-2-3 release 2.01 could do, but not as much of it. worksheet size is limited to 64 columns by 256 rows, there is no translation facility (for importing data from other packages), and the student edition does not write files that can be accessed by release 2.01. includes manual, original distribution diskettes (5 1/4" - 360k), and key board templates. o subaru service manuals ................................... $10.00 this is not a complete set, but includes sections 4, 5 & 6 which cover mechanical components (suspension, wheels & axles, steering, brakes, pedals & control cables, heater & ventilator, air conditioning), body (body & exterior, doors & windows, seats, seat belts, interior, instrument panel), and electrical (engine electrical system, body electrical system, wiring diagram, and trouble-shooting). these are the genuine subaru issue manuals. they are for model year 1986, but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well. o miscellaneous darkroom equipment ........................ $75.00 solar enlarger (several objective lenses) with easel and timer, negative carriers for 35mm and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4, misc. printing masks. developing tanks, thermometer, trays, constant-temperature bath, ground glass, mirrors, darkroom lamps, glassware, el-cheap-o tripods..... and (as they say) much more! o beautiful antique buffet ............................... $1500.00 solid cherry (no veneer). handmade, with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers. built (we think) around 1880. not gaudy or covered with gew-gaws; a simple, elegant piece of furniture, but too big (60" long, 37" tall, 24" deep) for our little cape cod house. will deliver pricier items (ie, over $10) anywhere in the rochester area. (and will consider delivering the others.) will deliver any of it on (or near) uofr campus between now and graduation. call or e-mail: paul or mary (716) 359-2350 (just south of rochester, ny) plkg_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76438">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76438" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 : please reply to the seller below. : 210m formatted scsi hard disk 3.5" : rodime 3259ts (3 available) i have had bad experience with this model and i know several others who also have run into difficulties. the drives will work just a limited period of time and after that the disk will report medium error. dont ask me for details, my disk is just stone dead. david jonsson voice&fax +46-18-24 51 52 p.o box 353 postal giro 499 40 54-7 s-751 06 uppsala internet e-mail t89djo@tdb.uu.se 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76440">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76440" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 $400included shipping 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76442">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76442" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 olympus stylus, 35mm pocket camera. smallest in its class. includes time & date stamp, battery, & carrying case. red eye reduction, timer fully automatic. rated #2 in consumer reports. $115 obo. jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university, dayton, oh e-mail: jyow@desire.wright.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76443">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76443" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi there again... i still have a few tapes left... as before they are $2.50 each (postage paid, 1st class). multiple orders appreciated, but not necessary... package deals welcome... thanks... chris bray lewis, huey|sports contains "heart of rock and roll", "heart and soul", "want a new drug", "walking on a thin line", "if this is it", and more!!! hooters: nervous night contains: and we danced, day by day, all you zombies, nervous night... poison|look what the cat dragged in their 1st tape. contains "cry tough", "i wont forget you", "talk dirty to me", and more! hall & oates|big bam boom contains: "out of touch", "possession obsession", and more! ratt|out of the cellar contains: wanted man, round and round, and more! quiet riot|condition critical contains: mama weer all krazy now outfield|play deep contains: say it isn't so, your love, all the love in the world, and more! plant, robert|shaken n' stirred contains: little by little, plus more... journey|raised on radio contains: girl cant help it, suzanne, be good to yourself, ill be alright without you, why cant this night go on forever... duran duran|arena contains: is there something i should know?, hungry like the wolf, new religon, wild boys, planet earth, and more! monkees|then and now - the best of the monkees contains: all their big hits plus some... inxs|kick contains: mediate, new sensation, devil inside, need you tonight, never tear us apart, mystify, and more! great tape.... csb1@engr.uark.edu | chris bray cbray@uafhp.uark.edu | university of arkansas, fayetteville i think someone should have had the decency to tell me the luncheon was free. to make someone run out with potato salad in his hand, pretending like he's throwing up, is not what i call hospitality. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76448">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76448" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm looking to buy machinist tools of any kind. if you have any or know of any for sale please leave me e-mail and i'll get back to you promptly. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76453">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76453" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 your price list price c memory management techniques $22.00 $32.95 len dorfman & marc j. neuberger (includes disk) borland c++ handbook $18.00 $29.95 second edition (covers version 3.0) chris h. pappas & william h. murray, iii converting c to turbo c++ $18.00 $29.95 len dorfman (includes disk) the art of c $22.00 $39.95 herbert schildt (includes disk) using turbo c++ $12.00 $24.95 herbert schildt c : the complete reference $18.00 $28.95 second edition herbert schildt using c++ $12.00 $24.95 (version 2.0) bruce eckel advanced c $9.00 $21.95 herbert schildt second edition high performance interactive graphics $8.00 $22.95 lee adams (examples done in basic) high performance cad graphics in c $10.00 $26.95 lee adams pctools the complete reference $15.00 $29.95 second edition (versions 7.0 and 7.1) hy bender dvorak's inside track to $20.00 $39.95 dos and pc performance john dvorak & nick anis advanced quick c 2nd edition $9.00 $22.95 (version 2) werner feibel wordperfect : the complete reference $12.00 $24.95 series 5 edition karen l. acerson using ventura publisher $8.00 $24.95 (this book covers the first version, but) (it might be good for newer versions too) using os/2 $8.00 $19.95 kris jamsa (this book is for version 1.x, obviously) using generic cadd levels 1-3 $10.00 $22.95 ray c. freeman iii i will pay shipping. (only in the usa) ekarabin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 70004.1523@compuserve.com ekarabin@csi.compuserve.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76457">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76457" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale mac 512ke with mouse and keyboard. functions fine hd20 serial hard drive.. plugs into floppy port and gives a 20mb hd make offers .sig under construction -- send suggestions to pledge@netcom.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76459">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76459" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a practical peripherals 9600sa (external) modem for sale. it's been used less than 1 year and has a lifetime warranty. i've never had a problem connecting to any site, something i can't say for the noname or third tier modems. original box and manuals. $150 (firm) includes shipping anywhere in the continental us. ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma@swdev.si.com grand rapids, michigan 73115.1041@compuserve.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76461">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76461" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a urei 527a 27-band (mono) equilizer for sale. anyone who knows this unit knows it's been a recording studio standard for years. it's a pretty straightforward unit, with balanced ins and outs. power supply caps were recently replaced, and i added xlr connectors (which can be easily removed if you prefer, as i mounted them on a bracket outside the case). the unit is in good shape, and is sonically very clean. i'm asking $225 + ups shipping. they're going for $250 generally. make me an offer. tod treganowan computing and information services university of pittsburgh (412) 624-6115 @work, 371-0154 @home 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76462">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76462" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to set up a personal studio. what i'm looking for are a cheap sampler(rack or with keyboard) or a cheap sound card (audiomedia i or ii or something similar). cheap is of course relative. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76465">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76465" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 pioneer pd-m530 multi-play cd player with 5-disc magazine -full-function remote -all the standard features including computer allocated program editing and time fade editing. it is in excellent shape- 1 year old. asking $175. -hans meyer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76468">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76468" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 pioneer vsx-501 audio/video receiver -dolby pro logic surround, 3ch logic -studio and simulated surround playback -video signal selector (simulcast function) -two-way vcr copying and monitoring -acoustic memory function -custom memory function -sleep timer -multi-room remote jack -av remote control unit less than one year old. excellent shape. $300 firm. -hans meyer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76469">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76469" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a friend who is looking to buy mfm controller. if you have one for sale, would you please contact me through email... ehud@eng.umd.edu eoentung@cbis.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76474">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76474" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sale item: a brand new stealth vram hi-color card w/ 1meg display price : $135 it comes with: install disk turbo windows 3.x drivers /w 24bit color halo desktop imager (24bit) for windows 3.x advanced autocad accelerator (includes big picture) a complete manual if interested, please e-mail sunbum@cory.berkeley.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76475">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76475" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 panasonic kx-p2124 24-pin dot matrix printer -320 cps -1/127 in. dot diameter -16-character lcd -super quiet mode -draft, letter quality, super letter quality fonts -rear, bottom, front, or top paper feeding (friction or tractor) -color compatible (needs optional color kit) -includes windows 3.1 panasonic printer drivers disk. bought it in jan. '93 and have used it very little. still has original ribbon cartridge. this is a very nice printer and is in brand new conditio i just dont use it often enough and i need money. i'll take $200 for it. -hans meyer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76476">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76476" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an-12 air cargo transport aircraft (with the complete technical repair in 1993 ). terms of delivery: 1. the price of the aircraft is $840000. 2. the price of leasing is $42800 per month with the guarantee flight time more than 60 hours. this price includes : a) the price of the aircraft. b) the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots. the price of leasing does not include : a) the fuel price. b) the price of technical service. c) taxes , airport taxes, air navigations expenses, the payments of hangspace. d) loading, unloading and insurance cargo. e) days payments for pilot, food and accomodation expenses,transport expenses. terms are negotiable. if you are interested, please contact at your earliest convenients. respectedly yours. andrey divaev. moscow tel: (095) 305-71-30 fax: (095) 305-72-60 "rusian tools" ltd. co. calling bill gates, calling bill gates.... settle down, raise a family join the pta, buy some sensible shoes, and a chevrolet and party 'till you're broke and they drag you away. it's ok. al yankovic 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76478">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76478" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hallo all...my girlfriend and i will be travelling across the us this summer, so we won't be using our tickets to return to hawaii. please buy them. the tickets are one-way, leaving peoria, il on may 17. it connects to the main route in minneapolis/st. paul, and from there goes on to honolulu...you'll be in honolulu at 2:42 pm, and flying via northwest airlines. any offers will be considered, but please make sure these are serious offers. tickets to hawaii aren't cheap, but we're aiming to make two people very happy this summer. madkiwi@camelot.bradley.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76481">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76481" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale ftp software, inc. pc/tcp (networking software for dos) version 2.04 (***) with lan driver for 3c503 cards, others you can get from ftp itself, serial numbers, orignal diskettes., tcp/ip telnet/ftp/ping/lpr/finger etc.... 6 copies, cheap. $45.00 each. correction: i check the diskettes, it only contains the pc/tcp kernel, no applications. it is only good for people who needs to run their own lan applications that uses ftp pc/tcp kernel calls, but mot the extra telnet/ftp/ etc... applications. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76482">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76482" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 forsale :- one microbotics hardframe scsi controller for the a2000. make me an offer. e. malcolm crosby internet: mcrosby@bsa1.kent.edu e-mail: emcamiga!malcolm@redpoll.mrfs.oh.us (e-mail please) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76485">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76485" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 it must have 1 meg memory and support res. 1024x768 (even higher will be better)if it has 9 & 15 pin ports and also supports ega/cga , that's better. i will pay $30 + $1 (shipping) for it. let me knoe if u have one like this. 803-654-8817 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76486">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76486" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 |> >for sale: life time membership to the ballys'/holiday fitness club. the |> >original fee paid for this was over 1,000, and i'll sell it for 600. the |> >membership is fully transferrable via proper paperwork. |> does is include raquetball? is it good at espree? what is the annual fee? since it is a life time membership, you won't have to worry about it until your next life. * trey arthur csc at nasa langley * * aerospace engineer ms 157d, hampton, va 23666 * * j.j.arthur@larc.nasa.gov (804) 865-1725 * 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76488">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76488" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 nikkor af 70-210 f/4-5.6 zoom lens. excellent condition. i'm looking to get the 2.8 version so i'm selling this. asking $175 no offers please. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76489">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76489" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a few the original ibm 10mb harddisks for sale. they are actually seagate's st412, mfm, full height, has the ibm logo and black face plate. each disk is checked and formatted with dos 6.0. it can be doubled to 20mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire. have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti-static bags. i am not sure if they were ever used, but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order. $30 each plus shipping cost, (about $5), if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs, this is for you ! it's cheaper than a floppy drive ! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76490">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76490" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 fm-2 has been sold. following remains: * minolta md 50 mm lens. $25. * ricoh camera with zoom lens. (identical features as nikon fe, plus some more). great condition. inquire about low price. * s-vhs tapes. brand new. fuji high quality. inquire. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76494">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76494" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if you paid $19.95 for a cd, you're a fool and you got ripped off. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76495">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76495" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 inguiry by address:er1@eridan.chuvashia.su 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76496">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76496" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 inguiry by address:er1@eridan.chuvashia.su 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76498">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76498" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i badly need a pair of sega 3d glasses for a cheap vr setup. if you have a set and want to part with it, i can arrange shipping, etc.., and duty if necessary. leave e-mail to: davecru@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca or call (403) 459-2893 ask for dj. dave cruickshank davecru@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76500">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76500" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i recently purchased an ibm monochrome vga monitor from mike damico. the monitor arrived but it was missing it's power cable. mike's address is apparently not a proper address because mail can't reach it. if anyone knows how to contact mike and could help me find him i would appreciate it. i am sure he just set aside the power cord as he was packing the monitor but it would be a lot more useful to me if i had the cord as well. traci collins, professor of computer education colorado mountain college tcollins@bridget.newcastle.co.us 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76501">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76501" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 look into the future discover what lies ahead in love, health and finance speak live with a psychic of your choice 900-446-6995 extension 107 you must be 18 or over to call. calls cost $2.95 per minute after introduction 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76505">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76505" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 new posting, lower prices!! make offers on anything that seems interesting!! a company i'm associated with is closing out some inventory and office equipment. here's what's available: quan. item description price ea. ******* new additions!! ******** 1 novell * 100 user * version of best offer netware 2.15 advanced netware 286, with tts, sft ii system fault tolerance level (remember ii (disk duplexing, mirroring), v2.2 sells transaction tracking (fault for $3000 tolerant file system), etc. for 100 just the manuals alone take users! up a foot and a half of shelf space! 1 hayes lanstep hayes peer-to-peer lan $40 starter package operating system and email. netbios compatible, expands up to 128 users. unopened. 1 canon np1010 great little copy machine - $200 makes great copies (just needs toner) reduce, enlarge, etc. very good condition, a bargain! (end of new items) 2 bytex ringout token ring cable and mau (was $750) testing and certification tool. this is the standard now: $625 handheld testing unit used by large companies such as coca cola and american express to certify their physical layer. current retail price: $1495. these are demo or new. 1 microtest lanmodem excellent modem server for novell (was networks. supports "remote lan $900) node" indial, modem pooling, and lan to lan asynchronous routing. now: ethernet version. current retail $750 price: $2000 13 microtest lanport standalone ethernet print was: $200 aui --> com1 server for novell networks (the intel netportii is now: $150 ea. based on this. original retail: $595) most of these are brand new. 12 microtest lanport see above " bnc --> com1 11 microtest lanport see above " bnc --> com1, com2 3 microtest lanport see above " aui --> com1, com2 4 microtest lanport see above " aui --> lpt1 1 microtest lanport see above " bnc --> lpt1 2 token ring mau 8-port ibm 8228 clone $100 5 milan mil-03p aui to 10baset mini transceiver (was: $50) now: $40 1 qms smartwriter 8/3x hp laserjet plus compatible (was $400) laser printer. 8 ppm, 300 dpi. based on the canon engine, it now: $325 has serial and ibm twinax ports. emulates hp, epson fx, ibm proprinter, diablo, and qume. downloads hp fonts. reliable! 2 ibm quietwriter 2 quiet, letter-quality printer. $100 1 sheet at a time feed. have extra ribbon cartridges. 1 ibm tractor feed for the quietwriter above. $25 3 ibm pc/xt compatible misc pc/xt compatible computers, (was: some are "pcs limited" (original $150) dell computer co.), some are "tech pc/xt". these come with now: at least a 20 mb hard disk, a $125 360 kb floppy, monochrome video card, keyboard, and 640 kb of 3 ibm pc/at or compatible some of these are original ibm (was: $200- at's, some are turbo clones. $250) clone brands include tandon, acer, and everex. standard now: $175- equipment is the same as above, $200 except most have 30-40 mb hard drives, and 1 1.2 mb floppy. 4 amber monitor for pc ibm compatible monochrome ttl $20 type, brands vary, including samsung, magnavox, and adi. (mostly want to stay local on these - too hard to ship) 2 ibm 5151 green monitor ubiquitous ibm pc display, $20 monochrome ttl type. (local - see above) 1 zenith zfl181-92 laptop pc. full-size and full- (was $300) travel keyboard, xt compatible, backlit supertwist (?) display, now: $250 dual 720k floppies. 1 accton ethercoax-8w 8-bit, bnc ethernet interface (was: $60) card for pc compatibles. this unit is nicely made (mostly now: $45 (also have 1 used, bo) surface mount) clone of the ubiquitous western digital wd-8003e. new in box with disk. 6 western digital wd8003e the "real mccoy" version of the $50 above. drivers are available for just about anything. used. surprising performance for an 8 bit card. no dma hassles. 1 hedaka 2400 modem internal, for pc compatibles. (was: $35) in box, almost new, works fine. now: $25 1 hayes 1200b internal internal 1200 real hayes modem $15 for pc compatibles. untested. terms on the above are c.o.d., shipping extra. as usual, offers are welcome, but i think most of these prices are more than fair. most of this equipment is tested and working perfectly, unless otherwise noted. please contact me via email as follows: pk@wet.com {netcom,hoptoad}!wet!pk thanks! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76506">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76506" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 commodore 128 epson homewriter 10 9 pin printer 1571 d/s disk drive 2 joysticks 1 mouse lotsa software, both games and apps. rapid fire joystick adapter about a year old $130 obo c_ommon pchang@ic.sunysb.edu s_ense state university of new york @ stony brook 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76508">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76508" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 miscellaneous comics for sale. i really would like to get rid of these for lack of space. buyer pays shipping, and all offers considered. oh, and the first purchase over $20 in any of my posts gets a free maxx #1/2 coupon, or a trashed copy of amazing spidey #300. here goes... deathlok #1 $3.00 2-17 $1.75 each annual #1 2.50 special #1 2.00 sleepwalker 1,2,6,8,9,13 7.00 (set) or 1.25 next men #1 $3.00 ray #1 1.00 deathstroke 5,6 1.75 each darkhawk 13 1.25 new warrior's 18 1.00 fantasti four 358 2.50 moon knight 35,36 1.75 each hulk 386-388 1.50 each punisher w.z. 1 2.50 cage 1 1.50 x-force 1 2.00 silver sable 1 2.00 x-calibur 26,27,48,49 1.50 each hearts of darkness 5.00 infinity guantlet 1-4 2.50 each batman v. pred. 1,3 2.00 each " " " (deluxe) 1 5.00 guardians of the galaxy 1 3.00 spider-man 2099 1-3 5.00 (set) spec. spider-man 189 3.00 (special hologram) let me know if you'd like to buy anything. my address is u38134@uicvm.uic.edu noel lorenzana 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76510">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76510" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: time line for windows by symantec never opened.. still in wrap...... retails for $495.00 asking $250.00 send e-mail if interested. internet ac216@cleveland.freenet.edu jonathan.evans@commlink.wariat.org 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76511">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76511" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm looking to buy a 100% working keyboard for a 286 system (preferably a 101 layout.) i'm looking to spend about $20. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76513">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76513" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 some reading from a recent interview trip ... waiting all day at o'hare a month ago, waiting out the storm here in new york! the price of the phoenix; the fate of the phoenix; memory prime take the package for $8, or in trade for a good used cd ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76515">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76515" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale or trade 2 synoptics model 2510, lan concentrators o new, never used, original packing o each unit has 12 rj45 ports for 10 mbps ethernet connectivity o included are one power supply, manuals, bracket hardware for 19" racks o you can setup lans using unshielded twisted pair (utp) telephone wiring o both units $400 o or, trade.... i'm looking for 386dx/486dx pc hardware email: jerry.ciz@rose.com phone: 416-855-6205 (24hrs, 7days a week) rosereader 2.10 r003050 entered at [rose] rosemail 2.10 : rosenet<=>usenet gateway : rose media 416-733-2285 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76516">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76516" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: ibm-compatible xt personal computer (dos) brand: acer age: 4.5 years specs: 640k ram 20 meg hard drive 5 -1/4 floppy drive color monitor 2400 baud usrobotics internal modem bundled with loads of software: word processing, communications, spreadsheet, games. a good computer that successfully got me through all of my ba, ms, and half of my phd (i decided to switch to a mac for my dissertation). perfect for high school student, college student, or person who needs basic word processing, spreadsheet, and/or database capabilities. best offer. reply to laura gurak userglub@mts.rpi.edu laura j. gurak/phd candidate/dept. language, literature, and communication rensselaer polytechnic institute, troy, ny 12180/gurakl@rpi.edu rhetorics of science & technology/social aspects of computing/rhet. criticism 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76517">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76517" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ******************f o r s a l e c h e a p********************* macintosh-plus *includes: 2 - 3.5" drives( 1 external) software: word, excel, pascal, intro package(hypercard, tour , etc) leaving school in may, must sell!!!!!! a steal at $450 please reply e-mail |||||||||| |||||||||| jr0930@eve.albany.edu =||||||||||======================||||||||||= jr0930@albnyvms.bitnet |||||||||| only the strong |||||||||| 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76518">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76518" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a sega genesis (barely used) that iud like to sell with the following games: sonic the hedgehog (i) revenge of shinobi thunderforce iii i'm asking $160 obo. i can best be reached via email, or alternatively, by phone at: (415) 497-3719. alexander hinds 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76519">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76519" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have two pairs of headphones i'd like to sell. these are excellent, and both in great condition: denon ah-d350 jvc ha-d590 any reasonable offer accepted. alexander hinds (415) 497-3719 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76520">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76520" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello again folks! been a while since i last sold thangs, but the last time went with no problems, and i'm moving again, so i have a few keyboard stands that i don't need anymore and don't want to drag back across the country. ultimate support stand: **probably sold, will see if it is gone by saturday (pick-up date). rok-steady 3-tier keyboard stand: $95 or best offer (try me) one x-shaped bottom unit, with two sets of "arms" that attach to that to support keyboard (2) above the main "x". shipping not included in the above prices, but details can be worked out if you're interested in these items. dan keldsen - djk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu dan keldsen | are you now, or have you ever been: djk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | a. a berklee college student? univ. of texas, austin | b. a member/fan of billy death? music composition, mm | c. a max programmer? m & m consultant (ask) | d. a think-c & midi programmer? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76527">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76527" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if you would like to sell your technics sa-gx910 receiver, or know someone who would like to sell it, please contact me. i'm willing to pay any reasonable price. thanx. davor (617)225-9489 dmatic@athena.mit.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76528">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76528" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com newsgroups: ba.market.misc,ba.market.computers,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale.computers.other summary: expires: references: sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: moondog software, sunnyvale, ca. i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com newsgroups: ba.market.misc,ba.market.computers,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale.computers.other organization: moondog software, sunnyvale, ca. i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com newsgroups: ba.market.misc,ba.market.computers,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale.computers.other summary: expires: references: sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: moondog software, sunnyvale, ca. i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com newsgroups: ba.market.misc,ba.market.computers,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale.computers.other organization: moondog software, sunnyvale, ca. i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com newsgroups: ba.market.misc,ba.market.computers,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale.computers.other summary: expires: references: sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: moondog software, sunnyvale, ca. i have an altos 2000 system v.3 unix system for sale (i actually have two, but one's for me). several years ago these well-known machines sold for $30,000 for the base configuration. this particular one has much more than the base configuration, depending on what you want: - 386 16 mhz cpu. - 8 meg of ram. - fifteen (15) serial ports (or more if you want)! - a multidrop port for up to 256 more serial ports! - 5.25" floppy drive. - qic 24 cartridge tape drive. - 170 meg esdi hard drive (either micropolis or cdc, or both if you want). - unix system v.3 installation. - networking software package (tcp/ip). - development system software package (c compiler and libraries). i am asking only $700 (firm) for the system! if you want another ethernet or serial card, add $50. additional disks are $100 each (i can install a total of three esdi drives). i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive. this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server. it was originally designed to service 40 active users, and up to 70 moderately active users. this is not a pc! it was designed to be a unix box from the start, and it's very fast and exceptionally reliable. it's dimensions are approximately 2.5' high (tower), 8" wide and 2" deep. i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up. shipping is way too much hassle. call if you wish, or send email. steve scherf (408) 736-2093 home (408) 559-5616 work steve@moonsoft.com scherf@swdc.stratus.com steve scherf ceo moondog software steve@zeppelin.moonsoft.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76537">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76537" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a seagate hard drive that i need some info specific information on. anyone have the ph# for seagate technology, inc? (or if they have a bbs setup that has all the drive info on it, like maxtor does, i'll take that!) thanks! :::apple ii forever!!:::go bucks!:::play lacrosse!!:::raging bullwinkle!::: : shane m . zatezalo - cis osu: i-net> szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu : : root@tap.colum.fnet.org : nextmail> shane@kiwi.swhs.ohio-state.edu : :gs::: call t.a.p. a futurenet bbs 614-297-7031 16.8k ds hst 425 megs ::gs: 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76545">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76545" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ****unix****unix****unix****unix****unix****unix****unix**** forsale: esix unix system v release 4 - new! 2 user license system - $400 unlimited user license system - $450 2 user license system with dev kit - $500 unlimited user license system with dev kit - $550 the above systems include all of the floppies or tapes and instalation manuals. they are new and have never been installed before. market value for the above systems is about $1500 us! if you are interested, please contact me at 416-233-6038. canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76548">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76548" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 here it is zoom 14.4k fax/data v.32bis modem. i have evreything only purchased in january. will happily provide the fax/comm. software and box and manuals. i am selling this for only $125+s/h cod. nicolas nowinski 703-435-9590 feel free to call for quickest service. þ olx 2.1 td þ yes you to can become a asm programer for $1,000,000+s/h 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76554">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76554" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 greetings netters, i have the following items for immediate sale. i need the money and if you need the stuff, we can work out a deal. :) sharp single disk cd player originally paid oodles, but that was a couple of years ago. it works well, has all the standards...(remote sensor[remote not included]; 20 track pragrammable memory; etc.) i got a new one and need to sell this one. please email me an offer!! (it's the standard black component style cd player) 3.5" 1.44 meg floppy drive a real ibm floppy drive with cable and mounting case. i paid $40 a couple of months ago. the drive works (as last time in). i would like to get the $40 back for it, but obo applies. 5.25" 360k floppy drive i'm sure someone out there needs an extra 360k. it works great and is nice and quiet. again, please email offer. rc10 remote control car 4 time world leader design. it was just overhauled. it runs great, even though the body if not all that pretty. has new engine in it as well as racing pinion. the chassis is nicked up from hard running, but it's still a great car. does not include electronics. comes with monster truck conversion kit (wheel arms already installed)-virgin truck body and bumper etc. car+kit=$100+20=$120 obo...make an offer! d&d stuff...you name it, i probably have it. please send email regarding what you want...or a request for sale list. i hate to part with any of it, but needs are needs, eh? misc cd's alice in chains - facelift $8 skid row (self titled) $8 both obo...really. box of computer printer paper...paid $20 for it, make offer. i might have 4 1*9 meg **60** ns simms forsale if i get a new motherboard... if you interested, the price is $40 a piece sold as a set. thanks in advance, please respond as soon as conveniently possible. kari@sage.cc.purdue.edu 317-495-5978 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76557">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76557" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 acorn software, inc. has 3 tape drives (currently used on a vms system) for sale. these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition. wangdat 1300 4mm $500.00 wangdat 2600 4mm (compression) $650.00 exabyte 8200 8mm $650.00 (sale pending) plus shipping and cod. certified checks only, please. these units are sold as is and without warrantee. contact me if you're dick munroe internet: munroe@dmc.com doyle munroe consultants, inc. uucp: ...uunet!thehulk!munroe 267 cox st. office: (508) 568-1618 hudson, ma. fax: (508) 562-1133 get connected!!! send mail to info@dmc.com to find out about dmconnection. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76558">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76558" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 79 toyota corolla 4d hatchback, runs ok, needs dents smoothed, serious brake work and miscellaneous tlc. excellent auto shop project. $250 obo. see in algonquin or schaumburg. (708) 658-5285, (708) 576-0675, or email. | "johnson" | behind every absurdity there lies a basic truth. | | johnson@wes.mot.com | behind every basic truth there lies an absurdity. | 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76559">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76559" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following prerecorded vhs tapes for sale. all are in great shape and are being sold since i have replaced all of them with laserdiscs: star wars the empire strikes back return of the jedi indiana jones and the temple of doom indiana jones and the last crusade e.t. if you are interested in any of these titles, please mail me an offer. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76563">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76563" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 wanted - 4 256k 60ns sips if you have any please tell me how much you want includding shipping. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76568">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76568" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 it seems i'm in the fortunate position to desire what many people want to sell- a miniature color tv. i require color and input for cable or vcr. i would prefer a 5inch diagonal and a tube television (not lcd). get paid the first, make an offer by email. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76569">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76569" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following system for sale. 386dx 25mhz (dtk motherboard intel microprocessor) 64k external cache 4 megs ram 89 meg harddrive (ide controller) 1.2 meg floppy drive 1.44 meg floppy drive 2 serial ports 1 parallel port samsung vga monitor svga graphics card (tseng labs w/ 1meg) awesome card. 101 key keyboard 2400 baud internal modem software: ms-dos 6.0 procomm plus ver. 2.0 norton utilities ver. 4.5 other various utilities i'm upgrading and need to sell. the system is reliable and ready to go. i've never had any problems with it. i'm asking $1000 o.b.o. if you're interested, please respond by either e-mail or phone. tae0460@zeus.tamu.edu 409-696-6043 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76570">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76570" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sony ccd-v9 8mm camcorder originally bought for $1200 now only $399 original box & all accesories. ja2f+@andrew.cmu.edu 412-268-7505 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76572">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76572" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 if you paid $19.95 for a cd, you're a fool and you got ripped off. please tell me where i can get a cd on the wergo music label for less than $20. john davison davisonj@ecn.purdue.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76575">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76575" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a fostex x-26 4-track recorder for sale. it is in excellent condition and includes dolby noise reduction, sub-mixing, 6 inputs and uses normal cassettes. if you are interested, make me an offer. please respond to: zmed16@trc.amoco.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76576">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76576" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have an alesis hr-16 drum machine for sale. it includes velocity-sensitive pads, 49 digital sounds, 99 pattern memory and 49 song memory. if you are interested, make me an offer. please respond to: zmed16@trc.amoco.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76579">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76579" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale 1990 mitsubishi eclipse gsx * all wheel drive * 195 hp, 16 valve, turbo * 5 speed transmission * limited slip differential * am/fm stereo w/cd player, cassette, 6 speakers * fog lights * air conditioning * cruise control * electric windows * front & rear intermittent wipers & washers * alloy wheels * undercoated & rustproofed * 22,000 miles * maui blue * excellent condition * asking $ 11,899 (negotiable) call pete: 908 457-2838 (work) 908 821-5393 (home) or respond to: pvannuis@attmail.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76581">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76581" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a pair of akg 340s in nearly new condition for sale. they have been used in my studio for mixdown monitoring. i have the original box. the 340s use both an electret element and a dynamic element in each ear cup with built-in crossovers. they have a very smooth frequency response and the electrostatic element gives clearer highs. i am asking $200 for the brett maraldo - plexus prodcutions -------- unit 36 research --------- "alien technology today" bmaraldo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca {uunet!clyde!utai}!watserv1!bmaraldo 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76582">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76582" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm selling a bunch of my older 12" records off. they are sitting around collecting dust and i never use them. i have used each of these records, once, maybe twice if i didn't record the song i wanted correctly the first time. these records are in perfect condition. please email me with the records you would want and what you think a fair price is. i will probably give deals, the more records you buy. kinda capatalist isn't it. well give me a yell at pagorm@iastate.edu with any comments. see ya i have recieved a few questions as to what 12" are. i guess i should elaborate. (???!!!! am i that old?) they are just maxi-singles on wax. if i am correct most beat mixers still use this form of record. this is probably the kind of person interested in this colllect or parts of it. any questions call (515) 294-3737. thanks and see ya. artist song soul ii soul get a life (back to life) back to life d mob put your hands together (a rhythm from within) c'mon get my lovin' janet jackson rhythm nation black cat milli vanilli blame it on the rain (girl i'm gonna miss you) maxi priest close to you (i know love) quincy jones i'll be good to you inxs suicide blonde (body wants u tonight) babyface my kinda girl mc hammer turn this mutha out (ring 'em) madonna keep it together lisa stansfield this is the right time all around the world (affection) stevie b love & emotion depeche mode personal jesus (dangerous) policy of truth (kaleid) enjoy the silence (mephisto) england/neworder world in motion..... snap ooops up (believe the hype) the power kyper tic tac toe rebel mc street tuff rob base turn it out mr. lee get busy monie love grandpa's party (i'll drive you crazy) the time jerk out black box everybody everybody bbd do me johnny gill rub you the right way b-52's roam (bushfire) redhead kingpin do the right thing digital underground humpty dance technotronic this beat is technotronic (pump up the jam, tough) jane child don't wanna fall in love (world lullabye) young mc i come off bust a move (got more rhymes) 2 in a room wiggle it glenn medeiros she ain't worth it 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76584">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76584" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine has a complete set of aix-ps/2 1.2 software and manuals for sale. (new) (all on 1.44 meg floppies) including: base os development tools (including c compiler) administration extensions x windows / motif tcp/ip pc simulator (dos merge) etc. etc..... (this software requires a ps/2 with 386 processor or higher, ample disk space and memory :-) it can coexist with dos and os/2 on the same machine, and selectively booted at startup.) if you are interested email me your offer and i will pass it along. keep in mind that the manuals and software fill up a 12x12x18 box so shipping is a consideration. (please include this message for reference) ====== s. alavi [ssa@unity.ncsu.edu] (919)467-7909 (h) ======== (919)515-8063 (w) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76587">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76587" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 items for sale..... this package was bought throught a award give-away company. i attempted to cancel my order before i received the package, but i was too late and the company refused to take the package back for refund. i know the truth which i would never get my $697 back, but i wish to get my money back as close as possible. here is the describtion of the package... nishika 3d camera it takes very good picture, never been opended or used. it came with wide angle flesh, carring case, film, and a instruction video. it has four lens and created a 3d effect on a regular 35mm jewelry it came with the package as additional gift. bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport. the users get a special hotel rate of $27 per-person per-night. meals, ground transfer, hotel tax is _not_ included. las vegas, reno, orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare, and hotel accomodation for 3 days/ 2 nights. meals, ground transfer, hotel tax is not included. the voucher is good for all 3 locations, but you can't travel to all 3 places at once. cancun, mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare, and hotel accomodation for 3 days / 2 nights. meals and ground transfer, hotel tax is not included as i paid $697 for the whole package. so try not to be cold-blooded when you make your offer. details would be provided by request. i do wish to sell the whole package at once. so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers, i don't care if you sell the camera to other for a higher pric if you are interested in the camera, you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift. if you receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards. trust me, you would get the exactly the same package as i did. there is only one award which will be given away. so don't bother even to call them back, if you are really interested, you could get it from me for a cheaper price. and you could receive the package within a week ( i waited three months to get my first and final packages). also, they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company. so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price. if you are interested, please reply to me as soon as posible. i really wish to get this over with. make me an offer, if i am confortable with your offer, i would send the package by u.p.s. the next day morning. more details could be given if you wish. please contact me at koutd@hirama.hiram.edu douglas kou hiram college e-mail address--- koutd@hirama.hiram.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76588">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76588" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: trident 1 meg video card up to 1024x768 in 256 colors 50 dollars or best offer, e-mail at dcassen@mcs213d.cs.umr.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76589">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76589" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 acorn software, inc. has 3 tape drives (currently used on a vms system) for sale. these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition. wangdat 1300 4mm $500.00 wangdat 2600 4mm (compression) $650.00 (sale pending) exabyte 8200 8mm $650.00 (sale pending) plus shipping and cod. certified checks only, please. these units are sold as is and without warrantee. contact me if you're dick munroe internet: munroe@dmc.com doyle munroe consultants, inc. uucp: ...uunet!thehulk!munroe 267 cox st. office: (508) 568-1618 hudson, ma. fax: (508) 562-1133 get connected!!! send mail to info@dmc.com to find out about dmconnection. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76591">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76591" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a tandy wp2 wordprocessor for sale. it has 148k (due to a 128k due to a ram disk), a word processing program, a 200,000 word spell checker, a thesaurus, is 1" thin and weighs 3 lbs. it takes 4 aa batteries (alkaline or ni-cad rechargable) or uses an ac adapter (in- cluded). it is a full size qwerty keyboard with an 80 character by 8 line lcd screen. it also has a telcom program which allows transfers of files to an ibmpc with a null modem cable and shareware transfer program (also included). it has a 9 pin serial port, a parallel printer port, and a tape recorder file save port. the telcom program can also be with a modem (not included) to access services like compuserve. this is great unit for a high school or college student to write papers and reports on. it comes with the original manual. you get all the above for $125.00 plus shipping and cod charges. send e-mail inquiries to: gilbert j. gall internet: guf@psuvm.psu.edu penn state university 201 a old botany bldg. phone: 814-865-5425 (office) university park, pa 16802 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76592">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76592" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 *********************sony b+w watchman tv********************* sony b+w 2.5 inch tv. it is in excellent condition. it has not been used much at all, thus why i am selling it. it gets great $60 reception. it sells new for $100 so i am asking $60. it is small enough (3"x6"x2") that you can carry it around anywhere. please e-mail to jbell@eecom.gatech.edu john t. bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta, ga 30332-0250 e-mail: jbell@eecom.gatech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76593">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76593" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 *********************word perfect v2.1 for the mac********************* i have a brand new copy of word perfect 2.1. it is the latest release, $100 it has not been used and is still in shrink wrap. it is a student version so it is not upgradable to a newer version. it sells for $250+ i would like to get $100 for it. please e-mail to jbell@eecom.gatech.edu john t. bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta, ga 30332-0250 e-mail: jbell@eecom.gatech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76596">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76596" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 this is a test. thanks. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76597">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76597" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have two brand new dayna etherprint adapters (10baset) for sale. they convert ethertalk to localtalk. this is useful when wanting to hook up a localtalk network printer to a ethertalk(10baset) network. they sell for $350 each in mac warehouse. will take $100 each. email response to atg@virginia.edu todd gibson (804)979-3235 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76598">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76598" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 base unit 1 controller all cables and hookups games: kieth courage legenary axe fantasy zone victory run wrestling challenge blazing lasers military madness bloody wolf *** asking $160.00 for all the above *** *** will ship cod *** *** call mike: 908-949-3804 (day) *** *** 908-469-3250 (eve) *** 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76599">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76599" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 selling: coleco base unit with: 2 controllers 1 atari game adapter to play atari games 12 games (ms. pac man, smurfs, etc..) will ship cod price$: make an offer call cheryl: 908-805-2011 (day) 908-469-3250 (eve) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76601">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76601" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 airline ticket ata to cincinnati i have a friend who has one ticket from atlanta to cin, oh. it is one seat in economy class on delta. the ticket is the return half of a round trip. it is currently in a woman's name. she does not need to fly back. need to sell the ticket. flyer would go standby because ticket is dated. asking $90. i am posting this for my friend. please do not email responses to me. instead contact rick at 513-271-4169. michael davis smith georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0463b internet: gt0463b@prism.gatech.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76606">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76606" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in 6 weeks. and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the deal with me before. so here i am, trying to post another message, againt. ( i don't mean to waste your valuable time.) basic instinct $11.00 born on the forth of july $11.00 backdraft $11.00 presumed innocent $11.00 the prince of tides $11.00 dance of wolves $11.00 all the prices are including shipping. you get all of them for $60.00. package deals are very welcome... so make me an offer... douglas kou hiram college koutd@hirama.hiram.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76607">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76607" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the following comics are for auction. the highest bid takes them! new stuff added!! (cyberrad, marvel presents, spiderman special, etc..) title minimum/current alpha flight 51 (jim lee's first work at marvel) $ 5.00 aliens 1 (1st app aliens in comics, 1st prnt, may 1988) $20.00/krism./sold amazing spider-man 136 (intro new green goblin) $20.00 amazing spider-man 238 (1st appearance hobgoblin) $50.00 archer and armstrong 1 (frank miller/smith/layton) $ 7.50 avengers 263 (1st appearance x-factor) $ 3.50 bloodshot 1 (chromium cover, bwsmith cover/poster) $ 5.00/same/twice cyberrad 1 (reintro cyberrad, prestige silver edition) $15.00 daredevil 158 (frank miller art begins) $35.00 dark horse presents 1 (1st app concrete, 1st printing) $ 7.50 detective 657 (azrael appears, intro cypher) $ 5.00 detective 658 (azrael appears) $ 4.00 harbinger 10 (1st appearance h.a.r.d. corps) $ 7.00/b.matthey/sold h.a.r.d. corps 1 $ 5.00 incredible hulk 324 (1st app grey hulk since #1 1962) $ 7.00 incredible hulk 330 (1st mcfarlane issue) $15.00 incredible hulk 331 (grey hulk series begins) $11.00 incredible hulk 367 (1st dale keown art in hulk) $15.00 incredible hulk 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, keown) $15.00 marvel comics presents 1 (wolverine, silver surfer) $ 7.50 marvel presents (charleston chew giveaway, sam keith) $ 5.00 maxx limited ashcan (4000 copies exist, blue cover) $33.50/brentb/sold mr t. #1 (signed advance copy, 10,000 exist) $10.00 new mutants 86 (mcfarlane cover, 1st app cable - cameo) $10.00 new mutants 100 (1st app x-force) $ 5.00 new mutants annual 5 (1st liefeld art on new mutants) $10.00 omega men 3 (1st appearance lobo) $ 7.50 omega men 10 (1st full lobo story) $ 7.50 power man & iron fist 78 (3rd appearance sabretooth) $20.00 power man & iron fist 84 (4th appearance sabretooth) $15.00 simpsons comics and stories 1 (polybagged special ed.) $ 7.50 spectacular spider-man 147 (1st app new hobgoblin) $12.50 spider-man special (unicef giveaway, vs venom) $10.00 star trek the next generation 1 (feb 1988, dc mini) $ 7.50 star trek the next generation 1 (oct 1989, dc comics) $ 7.50 trianglehead #1 (special limited edition, autographed) $ 5.00 web of spider-man 29 (hobgoblin, wolverine appear) $10.00 web of spider-man 30 (origin rose, hobgoblin appears) $ 7.50 wolverine 10 (before claws, 1st battle with sabretooth) $15.00 wolverine 41 (sabretooth claims to be wolverine's dad) $ 5.00 wolverine 42 (sabretooth proven not to be his dad) $ 3.50 wolverine 43 (sabretooth/wolverine saga concludes) $ 3.00 wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, miller art) $20.00 wonder woman 267 (return of animal man) $12.50 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, x-force card) $20.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, shatterstar card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, deadpool card) $10.00 x-force 1 (signed by liefeld, bagged, sunspot/gideon) $10.00 all comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. some titles i have posted here don't list every issue i have of that title, i tried to save space. geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76608">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76608" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 items for sale i will take offers for the following items. i reserve the right to refuse any offers. 1. howard miller clock. it chimes like a grandfather clock. 2. painting- a tiger in the snow. it is a beautiful painting, the tiger looks like it can jump off of the canvas and get you. 3. mens diamond ring, size 10 a. 3 rows of diamonds b. 18k gold call or email me. donald walker hm 408-263-3709 wk 408-276-3618 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76624">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76624" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm selling an adaptec 1640 scsi controller card. i works with microchannel machines only. the data transfer rate is very fast (i get about 3meg/sec with my scsi hard drive), and that's with relatively slow 100ns ram on a card. it's a scsi-2 true bus mastering/dma device, and goes for around $329 bought new. i'm including the new ez-scsi software for speedy win 3.1 performance and easy i'm selling it for $225, and i'll pay the cod shipping. please email me directly, and either give me your phone # with your offer, or i'll respond with mine. i hope we can both benefit from the sale of this microchannel device; it's a great product! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76644">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76644" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 simple, eh? rather get 'em used than new... must guarantee... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76645">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76645" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 need nice furnishings for your apartment or house? we have glass topped wood (sides) and chrome (edging) (1)coffee and (2)end tables for sale. the (1)coffee tables are approximately five feet in length and two feet the (2)end tables are 2.5 ft. x 2.5 ft. all the glass is clear (no scratches). first $50.00 takes all! thanks for reading! | art lekoff | internet: art@icdi70.compu.com | 3224 lisa turn | compu$erve: 72460.2024@compuserve.com | bensalem, pa 19020 | ma bell: 215/757-3126 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76651">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76651" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale 1989 kawasaki ts (650) tandum seating color: white with blue and red. jet ski runs great and looks good. ziemans trailer with locking utility box. color: black ziemans trailer is less than a year old. both have been garaged kept and well maintained. $4200.00 for both (to be sold as a set only) if interested call me at (408) 473-4159 leave message i will return your call asap. tim ryan standard disclaimer applies 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76652">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76652" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: selmer mark vii tenor saxophone used for college jazz band performances. i will include a copy of "the new real book" whick is a collection of jazz classics and various other standards. (paid $30 for it). other extras included. asking $1100 we can discuss shipping and cod charges. send me some e-mail or call me 303-224-4317 (home) or 303-491-7585 (school) jd490475@longs.lance.colostate.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76654">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76654" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following playboy videos for sale. email me if interested. all are original tapes (of course) in original boxes. video playmate calendar 1991 wet & wild ii sexy lingerie ii sexy lingerie iii prices are $15 each, 2 for $25, 3 for $35, or all 4 for $45. i also have a bunch of magazines (playboy, penthouse, hustler, chic, club, and more) email me if interested in those too. i'm willing to sell all or part of my collection cheaply. -justin (jslauson@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) "if builders built buildings like i write programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76656">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76656" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 we have the following ski equipment for sale: 120 cm poles $20 (white) salomon boots-sx80 $40 ; size 320 ladies = 8 to 8.5 in womens size shoe ; two unused in-soles included. what's left of a ski set bought new; hardly used; excellent condition! asking $55 for the entire package. you pay shipping and cod charges. send me some e-mail. i will provide further discriptions upon request. jd490475@longs.lance.colostate.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76661">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76661" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following snes games forsale. the ones with * have instructions and the other ones have no instructions. *romance of the three kingdoms ii $25 *populous $15 legend of zelda a link to the past $10 soul blazer $10 please reply by e-mail to jth@bach.udel.edu. i ask for $3 for s&h for one game, if you buy more than one i still only need $3. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76662">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76662" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following laser discs forsale. all are in original covers. they are all in excellent condition, i've watched them so many times and i can't see myself watching them again. i'm asking $20 per disc. road warrior robo cop repo man romancing the stone lost boys dark man robinhoood prince of thieves total recall i ask $3 for s&h for the first laser disc, if you buy more than one the $3 will cover them all. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76663">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76663" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a uniden visor clip sized radar detector with x, k, and ka band forsale. has city/highway and audio/mute options and comes with cigarette lighter attachment. i'm asking $50. please e-mail replies to jth@bach.udel.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76664">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76664" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 recently i got a case of hot shots '93 cards. unfortunately i had not planned on keeping all of them. i sort of got stuck with the case. (i'm not going to mention any names, though.) so, i am trying to sell off most or all (minus a set for myself). if you have any interest in a set, a box, or any singles, please let me know. the set has 250 cards. each card features a great looking woman in various stages of dress. some nude, semi-nude, lingerie, dressed. 99 percent are gorgeous, i feel. there are 4 subsets: girl, girl, girls 1 through 9 promo cards 251 through 259 (also numbered 1 of 9 through 9 of 9) emperor's all-stars 269 through 277 stripping empress 260 through 268 also, i am supposed to be getting some holograms soon as well. oh, and lastly, i have a very few error cards and a few cards that were originally intended to be used as card #1, but the company changed their mind. none of these cards are easy to get. anyway, if you have some interest in any of these cards, please drop me a line, as i am most eager to sell a bunch off. oh, and if you are interested, i also have 1 set of hot shots '92 left, and about 2 sets of california dreaming cards as well. and lastly, i have promo cards for all of the cards i have mentioned, and holograms as well. not a lot, though. john heiden al166@cleveland.freenet.edu john heiden al166@freenet.cleveland.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76671">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76671" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i hate it when my posts do that... 386dx 20mhz mb w/ 4meg of 60ns ram... make offer 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76674">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76674" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following pc games forsale. cyber empire (vga 3.5 disks) $15 prophecy of the shadow (vga 3.5)$15 prince of persia (vga 5.25) $15 gunship 20000 (vga 3.5) $10 global conquest (ega 5.25) $10 kings quest v (vga 5.25) $10 kings quest iv (vga 5.25) $10 ancient art of war at sea (ega 3.5) $10 mech warrior (vga 5.25/3.5) $10 champions of krynn (ega 5.25) $10 test drive iii (vga 3.5) $15 balance of power (ega 5.25) $10 leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards (vga 3.5/5.25) $10 sentinel world i (ega 5.25) $10 the bard's tale i (ega 5.25) $10 skyfox ii (ega 5.25) $10 bard's tale ii (ega 5.25) $10 modem wars (vga 5.25) $10 hillsfar (ega 5.25) $10 stunt track racer (ega 5.25) $10 all of the games have original boxes and all instructions, manuals and copy protection devices. please respond by e-mail to jth@bach.udel.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76675">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76675" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i recently upgraded to a 486 and have found out i don't really have a need for my old 386. i'd prefer to sell just the motherboard and keep the case etc, so i'll offer the motherboard and case separately and let you decide. i'm asking $325 for the motherboard, which has: 25mhz 386 dx (not sx) 8 megabytes of 32-bit, 70ns memory ami bios based on c&t neat chipset (this means the motherboard and bus circuitry timings are programmable - the bios' advanced configuration menus let you select system, dma, bus clock, wait states, command delays, etc.) "baby at" sized - fits in mini-tower, full-sized or most any other case (includes user's guide and a copy of the bios reference manual) for $150 more you could have the rest of the system too: full-size at case with 200(?) watt power supply 2 serial, 1 parallel, 1 game ports 20mb hard disk 1.2mb floppy disk video card (choice of vga or ???) if you're interested, please give me a call. the system is set up at my house in aloha, and you're welcome to come test drive it. random drivel from the keyboard of: +---+ brad davis, ncd inc, beaverton or | | network computing devices bradd@pcx.ncd.com (503) 642-9927 |ncd| pc-xdivision (office)(503) 671-8431 +---+ 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76679">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76679" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 dear sirs! commercial firm of lithuania "polius" is interested for new partners and establishing business contacts. at present we may offer to you the following we have human alpha-fetoprothein in liquit or leofil dried state with purity not less than 96,6. price 980$ per 1 mg. every month deliveries in quantity 50...100 mg. for more information please contact: e-mail internet: viktor@olesov.aiva.lt fax (3702) 223 537 phone (3702) 757 533 viktor olesov, e-mail internet: viktor@olesov.aiva.lt vilnius, lithuania. tel. (0122) 355 441 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76681">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76681" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have forsale a 486 25 slc notebook very small includes the following: cyrix 486 25mhz proc. ( fast ) midwest micro elite series 60 meg hard drive (120 w/ stacker) 1 3.5inch drive 1 serial, 1 parallel 2 megs of ram ( upgradable to 8 megs ) 64 shades of grey vga built in trackball very fast machine loaded with windows,stacker dos 5.0, carrying case, and power supply bought it just 3 months ago for $1500.00 and realized i don't need this much power in a notebook. i was asking $1300.00... now the first person with $1150.00 takes it. io00139@maine.maine.edu erik sette 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76684">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76684" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a turbo grafx 16 game system with the add on cd-rom system forsale. i want to sell the turbo grafx, turbo cd, turbo pad, and y's book i and ii (cd) for $100. i'll split the s&h charges. please reply by e-mail to jth@bach.udel.edu. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76685">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76685" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 it's basement cleaning time. this stuff has got to go. i have two boxes of 9 track 2400' tapes, around 20 tapes/box. they are free to anyone who wants to come by and pick them up. they've seen very little use. if anyone wants these bad enough to ship, they're yours for the cost of shipping, the cod charge and a $10 nusiance fee. i have a lot of serial cables. i have all kinds, ribbon, shielded, long, short m-m, m-f whatever you want. most appear to work well with pc serial ports, but i will not gaurantee that. tell me what you want and i'll do the best i can to match. 1.50 ea or 10/$10. shipping included. no cods under $20. (you want to pay a $5 cod charge for a $1.50 cable? go buy the cable at your local computer store instead, it'll be cheaper.) i believe these cables were removed from service at a computer center. they appear to be in good condition and the ones i have used have worked well. i also have a 15 kva exide ups with batteries that needs minor repair, probably a logic board. it weighs about 280 pounds and is 36 inches high. i think they used to run a prime system off of it. best offer over $75, but you need to come pick it up. use this to run your house from your solar panels. i will consider reasonable offers on any of this stuff. paul amaranth manager user services - office: (313) 370 4541 (also voicemail) (internet) amaranth@vela.acs.oakland.edu | this space (bitnet) amaranth@oakland | temporarily (uucp) ...!uunet!umich!vela!amaranth | empty 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76743">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76743" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 posting for a friend. reply to him, not to me. for sale: micro soft dos v. 5.0 micro soft dos v. 5.0 release date: 11/11/91 3 1/2" diskettes manual in perfect conditioni best offer accepted (i pay shippinig) contact randall at: randall_clark@byu.edu (801) 222-0834 (home) (801) 378-2722 (work) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76744">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76744" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 america west airline tickets for sale two $300 vouchers on america west airlines, which can be used toward the purchase of tickets to wherever that airline goes. there are no restrictions and no blackout times. they're legally transferable and can be used anytime before july 1. asking $250 each. please respond with email or voice to: cheryl@mathworks.com (the person selling the tickets) spencer@world.std.com (the person posting this article) call cheryl at 508-653-2452, x. 301. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76755">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76755" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 /* posted for a friend -- please reply to him */ ++++++++++++++++++++++++ car amplifiers for sale +++++++++++++++++++++++++ i have 3 high-end car amplifiers for sale: (2) old-style rockford fosgate 150's. these are great amps, and i've never had a minute's trouble with either of them. i've been running them on high end for quite some time (front/rear) and have been very pleased with them in that setup, but i've also run them on low end before, and they perform quite well in that situation as well. i'm trying to sell them because i'm considering upgrading to a rockford 650. i already own a power 300, and i've always liked the way the 650/300 combo worked in cars. i'm asking $200.00 a piece, and list on them when i bought them was $375.00. if you're interested in both of them, i'd be willing to come down on the price a little bit. (1) precision power 2150. this great utility amplifier is rated at 2x150, and looks brand new. the shroud is unscratched, and it works great. this is a great low-end amp because of it's high-power rating into 2 channels, however, i've also had it running front or back high end before where it did very well. i'm asking $425.00 for this amp, but feel free to make me an offer on **** please direct questions/replies to hacker@krusty.gtri.gatech.edu **** == chase hacker "fortune presents gifts not == == chase@cc.gatech.edu according to the book. dcd == == gt0658a@prism.gatech.edu == == hacker@krusty.gtri.gatech.edu == mike goldsman __o o__ o__ o__ o__ 36004 ga tech station _ \<,_ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ atlanta, georgia 30332 (_)/ (_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) pgp key available upon request just say no to brainwashing 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76782">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76782" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 novell 386dx16 motherboard with cpu, 4 megs of memory and i/o ports for $160 + shipping / firm. let me know if you are interested. 803-654-8817 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76785">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76785" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 as the title says. i would like to sell my star lv2010 9 pin printer. its a narrow colum dot matrix, supports both parallel and serial interfacing, prints at 200 characters per second, has a 16k buffer, and is very dependable... drop some mail if your interested in it. $55 plus shipping get the printer, and 6 extra srink-wraped ribbons, parallel connection cable, power cord, manual, and one sheet of paper (smile)... 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76786">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76786" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 to: all uniden cordless phone-model xe 300. perfect working condition, but base station is missing its antenna (the antenna mount is intact). $25, shipping included if prepaid. do not reply to: dino.fiabane@pics.com. your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address. instead, please reply only via private e-mail to: pics!dino.fiabane@twwells.com (since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e-mail for the time being, any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e-mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup.) dino fiabane, 150 weston drive, cherry hill, nj 08003-2132 phone (609) 424-3836 * slmr 2.1a * reply to: pics!dino.fiabane@twwells.com via e-mail | pics online multiuser system (609)753-2540 hst 609-753-1549 (v32) | | massive file collection - over 45,000 files online - 250 newsgroups | 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76790">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76790" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am interested in both the battletech games for the ibm pc. i will be grateful to anymore with information. please email me if you would like to do my transaction. thank you.! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76792">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76792" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have following softwares for sale: new items (never opened): 1. lucid 3-d, three dimensional spreadsheet: with pull-down menus, on-line help, up to 8 pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail, 3-d capability, compatible with lotus 1-2-3, etc. $15 including shipping (manual, 5.25" disks) 2. turbo pascal express with 250 ready-to-run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster, more powerful, and easier to use. book and 2 5.25" disks $15 (including shipping) 3. dr. halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program - it's a complete page composition and presentation graphics package. automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing. true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints. 3 5.25" disks and manual $12 (including shipping) 4. key form designer plus software for making professional business forms. 3.5" disks and manual $25 plus shipping obo like-new items (package is opened but not registered): 1. jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f-23 as well as f-14, f-16, f/a-18, and f-22. 3.25" disks and manuals $30 plus shipping obo 2. nighthwak f-117a stealth fighter 2.0 the definitive simulation of america's radar-elusive jet. sensational sound, nine world's "hot spots": cuba, north korea, the kuwaiti t theatre of operations, central europe, the north cape, libya, the persian gul f, vietnam and the middle east. awesome missions to challenge you. 5.25" disks and manual $35 plus shipping obo 3. grammatik iv - $20 plus shipping 4. quattro pro 1.0 - make an offer 5. gem chart, graphics, word, publisher, ... v.3.0 - make an offer. all items above are for ibm/compatible systems. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76794">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76794" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: * (1) cga card * road & track's grand prix (3.5" disks) * dos 4.01 * packard bell .39 dot pitch vga color monitor * 256k 2-the-max vga card please make offers for the above merchandise. what do you have to lose? go ahead--make an offer! thanks. email: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu mike bitz internet: bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu research and development bitzm@dsuvax.dsu.edu dakota state university bitnet: s93020@sdnet.bitnet 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76796">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76796" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a '81 datsun 210 hatchbak forsale: it's a blue datsun two doors (three, since it's a hatchback) 69,900 miles very good condition (i hate to sell it, but phila insurance is outrageous; i also don't need a car right now) i am asking $800 or bo call ron at 215-222-6933 or email: perrault@a.chem.upenn.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76797">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76797" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 does anyone have a pair of sega 3-d glasses they're willing to part with? or know of anywhere to acquire a pair, as they don't have them around here!!! inspiration | ___ | comes to | \ o baden@sys6626.bison.mb.ca | those who | ( ^ ) baden@inqmind.bison.mb.ca | seek the | /-\ =] baden de bari [= | unknown. | | 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76798">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76798" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 large bedroom for rent from june 1-aug 15 in row house near jhu (homewood). no smokers or pets. share house with 2 or 3 f law students. f professional/ student wanted. 2 bath,large kitchen - remodeled last summer, hardwood floors, lr,dr, washer and dryer. beautiful details. rent $325 + 1/4 utilities. located on bus lines. for more info email me : rfp@jhuvm 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76799">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76799" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 wanted: summer sublet in nw dc, on red metro line. have own bedroom, but can share common areas with others. apartment or room for $400 or less. move in memorial day weekend through end of august. no smokers. email prinaoa @ yalevm or rfp@jhuvm 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76802">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76802" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 im interseted in buing some of those....i am a student at r.i.t. please reply saying how to contact you.....ed 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76803">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76803" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 please reply to the seller below. for sale: exabyte exb-8500 8mm 5g tape drive writes 5g per 112m 8mm data grade tape uncompressed latest eeprom revs - fully compatible with sun machines black faceplate seen very little use (due to the fact that i have no 8mm tapes) decided that money is more valuable than quick and convenient backups list: $3495.00 catalog specials: ~$2495.00 your price: $1900.00 shipping extra please email responses to: \\lee thx1138%polarsun@rna.rockefeller.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76805">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76805" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 maxtor xt8670s 660 mb scsi drive 16ms access time 2 years old external casing $777 ja2f+@andrew.cmu.edu 412-268-7505 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76811">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76811" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 dk>.@subject:vhs movies [must sell because i am moving] n dk>.@from :koutd@hiramb.hiram.edu n dk>newsgroups: misc.forsale,rec.video dk>subject: vhs movies [must sell because i am moving] dk>message-id: <1993apr22.095736.1@hiramb.hiram.edu> dk>from: koutd@hiramb.hiram.edu (douglas kou) dk>date: 22 apr 93 09:57:36 -0500 dk>organization: hiram college dk>those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in 6 weeks. dk>and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the dk>deal with me before. so here i am, trying to post another message, dk>againt. ( i don't mean to waste your valuable time.) dk>basic instinct $11.00 dk>born on the forth of july $11.00 dk>backdraft $11.00 dk>presumed innocent $11.00 dk>the prince of tides $11.00 dk>dance of wolves $11.00 dk>all the prices are including shipping. you get all of them for dk>$60.00. dk>package deals are very welcome... dk>so make me an offer... dk>douglas kou dk>hiram college dk>koutd@hirama.hiram.edu hi, i'd like to purchase "basic instinct" for $11. all of my other notes to you have been returned. i don't know why. it keeps saying address unknown. please let me know if this movie is still available. thank you. jordan mcauley in atlanta dita@info-gw.blackwlf.mese.com . slmr 2.0 . | ed hopper's bbs - ehbbs.com - berkeley lake (atlanta), georgia | |usr/hst:404-446-9462 v.32bis:404-446-9465-home of uupcb usenet for pc board| 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76812">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76812" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'm looking for a copy of "bela lugosi's last film." if anyone has a copy of this stinker, please e-mail me. (also, if anyone knows a better place to post this, please tell me). eric jaron stieglitz ejs16@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu school: (212) 853-6883 "you ate the only thing i ever loved!" home: (401) 421-7479 -seymour, lsoh 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76814">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76814" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hello there, i am looking for sim city for pc (new/used). please make your offer to cchu@udel.edu. thanks ! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76817">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76817" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 supra fax modem v.32bis external stand alone forsale external with digital status display fax speed up to 14.4 send/receive compat with class 1,2, group 3 data rate @ 14.4/12/96/72/48/24/12/3 v.42bis, v.32bis mnp2-5 hayes compatible "at" command with external cable to your serial port. works with pc, mac, amiga. $150. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76818">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76818" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 hi there again... i still have a few tapes left... as before they are $2.50 each (postage paid) - or best offer... multiple orders appreciated, but not necessary... package deals welcome... thanks... chris bray lewis, huey|sports contains "heart of rock and roll", "heart and soul", "want a new drug", "walking on a thin line", "if this is it", and more!!! hooters: nervous night contains: and we danced, day by day, all you zombies, nervous night... poison|look what the cat dragged in their 1st tape. contains "cry tough", "i wont forget you", "talk dirty to me", and more! hall & oates|big bam boom contains: "out of touch", "possession obsession", and more! ratt|out of the cellar contains: wanted man, round and round, and more! quiet riot|condition critical contains: mama weer all krazy now outfield|play deep contains: say it isn't so, your love, all the love in the world, and more! plant, robert|shaken n' stirred contains: little by little journey|raised on radio contains: girl cant help it, suzanne, be good to yourself, ill be alright without you, why cant this night go on forever... monkees|then and now - the best of the monkees contains: all their big hits plus some... inxs|kick contains: mediate, new sensation, devil inside, need you tonight, never tear us apart, mystify, and more! great tape.... csb1@engr.uark.edu | chris bray cbray@uafhp.uark.edu | university of arkansas, fayetteville you know, some white coral, painted brown, and attached to the skull with some common wood screws, can make a child look like a deer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76821">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76821" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ********************* new price *********** i have an extra copy of lotus 1-2-3 ver 3.4 for dos. this package was originally $600. i'd like to get $75 for it. please reply by e-mail to jth@bach.udel.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76824">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76824" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a certificate for one round-trip airfares to either orlando, las vegas and reno/lake tahoe. expiration date is one year from now. the maximum retail value, depending on time and location, is estimated at $2000 for all three locations, including accommodation for 3 days and 2 nights at a leading hotel. i am asking for $1800 or best offer. purchase of tickets for a single location is possible. for more information, call goh at (415) 497-0663 or send mail to kmgoh@leland.stanford.edu goh kwang meng 116 arroyo, wilbur p.o.box 7029, stanford ca 94309 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76825">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76825" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a certificate for one round-trip airfares to either acapulco or cancun, mexico. expiration date is one year from now. the maximum retail value, depending on time and location, is estimated at $1100, including accommodation for 3 days and 2 nights at a leading hotel. i am asking for $1000 or best offer. for more information, call goh at (415) 497-0663 or send mail to kmgoh@leland.stanford.edu goh kwang meng 116 arroyo, wilbur p.o.box 7029, stanford ca 94309 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76826">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76826" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a few the original ibm 10mb harddisks for sale. they are actually seagate's st412, mfm, full height, has the ibm logo and black face plate. each disk is checked and formatted with dos 5.0. it can be doubled to 20mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire. have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti-static bags. i am not sure if they were ever used, but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order. $30 each plus shipping cost, (about $5), if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs, this is for you ! it's cheaper than a floppy drive ! 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76829">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76829" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 o sony color watchman, model fdl-310 - vhf/uhf - 86,400 pixels; 2.7 inch (diag) screen - dimensions 3 3/8" x 6 1/8" x 1 3/16" - bright, vibrant colors, and very sharp (unlike the casio pocket tvs) - ac power adapter - paid $300.00 asking $150.00 obo 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76830">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76830" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i'd say the subject line about covers it. i need a mc68881 floating point co-processor for my sun 3 system. please reply via email if you've got one of these thingies that you'ld like to sell me. | paul l. moreau | storage concepts inc. | | sr. diagnostics eng. | 1622 deere ave | | email: paulm@storcon.com | irvine, ca. 92714 | | uucp: ..!storcon!paulm | (714)852-8511, fax (714)557-5064 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76833">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76833" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 cad setup for sale: g486plb local bus motherboard can use up to 32mb of simms (256k/1m/4m) 9 expansion slots (8 16-bit slots, 1 32-bit slot) weitek 4167 co-processor socket 33 mhz intel cpu 33 mhz weitek 4167 math co-processor g-host4000 local bus et4000 video card based on tseng labs' et4000 chip design supports resolutions up to 1280x1024 interlaced or non-interlaced uses ramdac to allow up to 32k colors in 800x600, 65k colors in 640x480 register level compatible with cga, ega, vga, mda software drivers available for 1-2-3, symphony, autocad, autoshade, windows, wordperfect, vesa and 8514/a emulation also contained on the card: local bus ide controller floppy disk controller two fully configuarable serial ports 1 parallel port 1 game port i used this setup to run autocad and 3d studio. the combination of local bus and the weitek co-processor made for very fast cad and modeling work. the weitek coprocessor can cut 3d studio render times in half and sometimes more. it also increases redraws and regens when modeling in both 3d studio and autocad. everything is less than a year old. i am asking $950.00 + shipping for the whole package. please respond via email. - jason tobias jtobias@photon.tamu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76836">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76836" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 o denon dcr 5490 (high power pull out cassette deck with cd changer control) features: - 18 w x 4 - theft prevention chassis (pull out) - 24 station-presets (18 fm, 6 am) - denon optimum reception system iv (fm circuitry-auto high blend and fm pulse noise cancellor) - dolby b nr - key off head release - flexible fader-internal front amp to rear amp and/or internal front amp to internal rear amp - auto reverse cassette mechanism - up/down manual & seek tuning - music sensor - stereo/mono (fm), local switches - metal tape switch - din "e" with easy installation lock-in sleeve - night illumination with dash light dimmer lead - preset scan - cd changer control random play: all of tracks on a disc automatic/manual search excellent condition with manual. asking $220.00 + shipping o yamaha ypa-300 power amplifier (car audio) features: - selectable 2-mode power output: 40w x 2-ch or 90w x 1-ch - all w/ extremely low distortion (0.1% thd) - low rfi circuit effectively eliminates radio frequency interference which might arise from dc-dc conversion - full protection circuitry protects amplifier from potential damaged caused by overload, short circuiting, dc leakage, excessive heat or mis-wiring. - input level adjustment allows you to complement your system with any audio component - gold-plated rca jack ensures a durable, optimum contact, even under rugged road conditions. - remote power links the entire system's on/off with the cassette receiver's ot tuner's power switch. - screw terminals allow simple wiring connections - power fuse replacement is a simple, one-step operation. - alternater noise reduction circuitry is effectively suppressed during driving. specifications: continuous power output (per channel, 4 ohms, 2 channels driven.) with 0.1 % thd, 20 hz ~ 20khz .................35w/35w with 0.1 % thd, 1 khz .........................40w/40w (per channel, 4 ohms, 1 channels driven.) with 0.1 % thd, 20 hz ~ 20khz ................80w(btl) with 0.1 % thd, 1 khz ........................90w(btl) speaker impedance................................4 to 8 ohms frequency response (at 1w, 4 ohms)......10 hz to 100 khz (+0, -1.5db) signals-to-noise ratio ...............................105 db total harmonic distortion - (at 20w + 20w, 1 khz, 4 ohms, 24 khz, lpf)......0.005% dimensions (w x h x d).....................200 x 50 x 156 mm weight..........................................5 lbs. 15 oz list price: $250.00 this is one of the nicest/cleanest amp that i have even owned. i am using two of these in my car, this is just an extra one that i don't really need. if you are in the bay area, and like to listen to it first, let me know. asking $150.00 firm + shipping (brand new in box, never been installed) o boston acoustic 861 seperates (car audio speakers), 6" woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers. brand new in box, never been installed, $259.00 at good guys asking $199.00 firm o 2 8" mtx free air woofers, new in box, never been installed. paid $49.00 each at good guys asking $70.00 firm o ungo box top of the line 5400 auto alarm with 2 twin-buttons remote (patented electronic motion/shock sensor, parking light flasher, ignition kill, panic mode, power door lock/unlocking control, led flashing status light, arms all doors, hood and trunk, etc.) news in box, $180.00 firm 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76837">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76837" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 my roommate left me his playboy collection which he no longer wants, so i'm offering them to the general public. (that's you!) make an offer for the *entire collection* i will accept the best offer. (offer does *not* include cheapest method of shipping from bethlehem, pa) 1992: february (supermodel rachel williams, world tour, & pom tanya beyer) 1991: may (shannon & tracy tweed & pom carrie jean yazel) july (tall girls, miss bulgaria, & pom wendy kaye) september (barbi twins & pom samantha dorman) november (la toya jackson & pom tonja marie christensen) december (dian parkinson from "the price is right" & pom wendy hamilton) 1990: july (sharon stone, marilyn look-alike, & pom jacqueline sheen) october (girls of the big west, gladiator marisa pare, & pom brittany york) november (teri copley from "we got it made", sex in cinema, & pom lorraine olivia, stewardess) 1989: january (35th anniversary issue - collector's edition) february (year in sex, rio's grand, & pom simone eden) march (la toya jackson & pom laurie wood) august (women of wall st., diana lee from "license to kill", & pom gianna amore) november (donna mills, sex in cinema '89, & pom renee tenison) 1988: august (sunshine girls & pom helle michaelsen) october (girls of the southwest conference & pom shannon long) november (women of washington, sex in cinema '88, & pom pia reyes) december (playmate review, sex stars of '88, lysette anthony, & pom kata karkkainen) 1987: november (jessica hahn, sex in cinema '87, & pom pam stein) also: *** special edition: "playboy presents: 100 beautiful women" *** bsme/mba looking for a job....hiring? / | *----------------------------------------* e-mail: jwg0@lehigh.edu | | take a walk on the wild side...biffman lehigh university /o)\ | *----------------------------------------* bethlehem, pa usa \(o/ | j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i \____________________________| 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76840">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76840" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: polk rta 12 speakers sansui 4900z - 60 watt rx akai csm 40 rm $500 or best offer. a friend asked me to post this for him. if you are interested or want more information, call him; do not reply to me. thanks. call carl 609 466-9490 leave a message if he is not there. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76841">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76841" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 seagate st-212, hh, 10mb, $25 ibm, fh, 30mb, $70 they all are mfm type and in good working condition. buyers pay shipping. 803-654-8817 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76842">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76842" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a few the original ibm 10mb harddisks for sale. they are actually seagate's st412, mfm, full height, has the ibm logo and black face plate. each disk is checked and formatted with dos 6.0. it can be doubled to 20mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire. have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti-static bags. i am not sure if they were ever used, but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order. $30 each plus shipping cost, (about $5), if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs, this is for you ! it's cheaper than a floppy drive ! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76843">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76843" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 the title says all. (not ibm brand) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76844">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76844" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have for sale the following: hewlett packard 500 deskjet 4 additional deskjet ink cartridges 8 ft. parallel printer cable the printer is approx. 2 years old (7 months of use, and then a year in storage during my relocation from illinois to columbus) and in excellent condition. all original manuals, and boxes are included. the selling price is $325.00 for the entire package. unwilling to break it up because what good would cartridges do me without a printer. if interested call either (614) 860-2144 or (614) 771-8861. you can also respond via e-mail. ricardo rollins * e-mail: rollins@cblph.att.com at&t bell laboratories * voice: 1-614-860-2144 6200 e. broad st. * disclaimer: opinions expressed are not mine. columbus, oh 43213 * unless they're morally, ethically, * and politically correct. :-) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76845">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76845" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 counterpoint sa-12 85watts per channel very very warm tube sound, great for warming up cds excellent shape asking $650 tom nezwek 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76846">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76846" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 tasco 18eb 20x-60x60mm, used once, looks like new, worth $170, sell $70 only. buyers pay shipping. 803-654-8817 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76847">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76847" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 85'mazda glc - 58k miles - charcoal grey, 4-dr - automatic transmission - a/c , stereo system with 4-way speaker - rear window defrost, cruise control - new water pump, front tires, headlight, heat shield. - 1 year old battery and transmission. - well maintained with all records of purchase and service. - inspection done in feb'93 - good condition - reason for selling : moving out of austin. $ 2500.00 (negotiable) must see to appreciate. call or leave message on answering machine at 477-9429 or email to sc@che.utexas.edu sulagna chatterjee_________________________________________________ department of chemical engineering :sc@che.utexas.edu university of texas @ austin, tx 78712 :chcu327@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76848">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76848" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a mac lcii 4/80 purchased last august. just the cpu and mouse... no monitor or keyboard. $800 obo peter white pw4963@csc.albany.edu pwhite@mac.archive.umich.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76850">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76850" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i am selling a western digital 212 meg ide hd, the caviar 2200 model. the access time is <15 ms, and it has a built in cache. it is brand new, still in the original static bag. asking $275, obo. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76851">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76851" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 sorry for the frequency of the posting (i'm in a time crunch). i'm selling my toys so i can afford a house :_( -amiga 4000/040 -25 mhz 68040 (built in fpu/mmu) -18 megs of ram, 2 megs of video ram, expandable to 2 gigabytes -a2091 scsi controller -fujitsu 520m 3.5" scsi drive, 12ms, 3 years warranty -1 year of on-site service remaining -$3000 obo -epson es300c full page 600dpi, 24 bit color scanner w/sware and adpro loader -software (standalone and adpro loader) -$850 -supra faxmodem v.32 bis, 14.4k, latest roms -$205 -scsi cd-rom drive, 400ms, internal -$225 -mitsubishi diamondscan aum1371 14" multisync 15-38 khz, 30-90hz -analog rgb, ttl, video inputs -$275 -all of the above, $3900 obo ($2000 less than original) -amiga 2500/040 toaster system -amiga 2500 -zeus 28mhz 68040 (fpu and mmu built in), 1 year warranty -16 megs of ram -1 meg of video memory -quantum prodrive 100, 100m scsi drive -2 personal tbc ii, time base correctors (s-video and composite), docs, sware -video toaster 2.0 with lots of fonts and objects and toastervision -toastervision, arexx sequencing, toaster croutons, framestore compress, ... -instructional video -scsi cd-rom drive -sony slvr5uc svhs vcr, new, warranty, -2 a1080 color rgb/composite/yc monitors -pioneer video disc player, cld980, rf in/out, composite out -rock solid sync generator, multi-format video disc players, cd -$6900 obo i will parcel this stuff out if necessary (please send offers :_( -meade 826c 8" newtonian reflector telescope -8" aperture, f/6 -very heavy duty mount -clock drive -dual axis corrector with joystick and ac or dc drive -fiberglassed tube for a bit more strength -2 finder scopes -1 8x50mm finder scope -1 60mm finder scope with diagonal holder and 9mm eyepiece -2" barrel for 2" eyepieces (includes adapter for 1.25" eyepieces) -1 25mm 1.25" eyepiece -1 9mm or 7mm 1.25" eyepiece, take your pick, both for $30 more -it needs to be collimated, but is otherwise in superb condition -$775 (i'd really prefer to sell locally due to its size) -maxtor 8760s, 680 meg (formatted), 5.25" fh, 16ms -$625 -$695 in sun shoebox -all software listed below is for the amiga. comes with boxes, diskettes, manuals and in many cases are unopened, containing registration cards. -mean 18 golf -$10 -greg norman's shark attack -$10 -superstar ice hockey -$10 -jack nicklaus -$10 -microbot 3d design disk -$10 -pga tour golf -$10 -$10 -balance of power -$10 -world trophy soccer -$10 -$10 -omni play basketball -$10 -all above software: $65 -cadence treadmill -used for about 1 month -lcd panel -built in computer -must sell locally due to size -bought for $700 -asking $190 this a2500 posted for a friend: (please email him at 7mqk@um.cc.umich.edu) -amiga 2500/030, 5 megs ram, 40m scsi drive, scsi controller, a1084 monitor -$1200 obo thanks, ralph (313) 677-3086, please call after 6:00pm, or send email (best way to reach me) rps@arbortext.com gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu ralph seguin 2261 glencoe hills dr. #8 ann arbor, mi 48108 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76853">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76853" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 location: corona del mar, ca (orange county) for sale: contemporary custom couch 7' long ( 3 cushions) solid black raw silk-like material rolled armrests clean design excellent condition (left behind @ parents when moved out of state) $450. or best offer for sale: wurlitzer console piano w/bench cherry wood great condition $600. or best offer contact: dell or louise williams @ (714) 644-8305 or (714) 760-8812 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76855">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76855" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i need 3 tickets to the cleveland showing of phantom of the opera. i will pay face value for tickets in the 50 dollar and lower range preferably a matinee show but any in middle to late may will be bought. please leave mail. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76856">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76856" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 to: all gvc technologies v.32 9600bps modem 9600/4800/2400/1200/300 bps operation with automatic speed ccitt v.32/v.22bis/v.22/v.21 full-duplex operation. asynchronous operation. auto-answer & auto-dial: automatically switch between data and voice transmission. supports com port 1-4, and irq 2-5 analog/digital/remote digital loopback test modes. communication by crosstalk software and manual included. modem manual & warranty registration card included. (optional ccitt v.42bis/v.42/mnp 2-5 module, providing error correction and data compression to increase throughput up to 38,400 bps, available directly from the manufacturer.) mint condition. $125. do not reply to: dino.fiabane@pics.com. your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address. instead, please reply only via private e-mail to: pics!dino.fiabane@twwells.com (since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e-mail for the time being, any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e-mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup.) dino fiabane, 150 weston drive, cherry hill, nj 08003-2132 phone (609) 424-3836 * slmr 2.1a * reply to: pics!dino.fiabane@twwells.com via e-mail | pics online multiuser system (609)753-2540 hst 609-753-1549 (v32) | | massive file collection - over 45,000 files online - 250 newsgroups | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76858">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76858" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 please reply to the seller below. for sale: sun scsi-2 host adapter assembly brand new in unopened mylar sun part no. 501-1167 50pin dsub external connector compatible with sun 3/100/200, 4/200/300 machines available march 1, 1993. originally purchased for ~$1,200 eighteen months ago please email offers to: \\lee lee%polarsun@rna.rockefeller.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76860">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76860" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 for sale: minolta master series-c50 vhs-c camcorder forsale multidimensional autofocus system 6x power zoom charge coupled device dual-area autoexposure system (for backlit subjects) high-speed digital shutter 1/1000 sec dual mode self timer date/time insert linear tape counter power focus advanced auto white balance system mic jack, dc out, remote connector, earphone minijack excellent condition, used several times in two years original box and packing ac adapter/charger vac-500u one standard vbp-500 (60 min) one extra vbp-501 (80 min) cassette adapter ad-2 (for full size vhs viewing) bunch of miscellaneous extras (rf adapter,cords, etc) available immediately price $550.00 us firm shipping extra please email responses to: \\lee lee%polarsun@rna.rockefeller.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76861">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76861" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any pc with a parallel port to the network make offer note: the device has never been used (ie: still in plastic) and is 10baset .sig under construction -- send suggestions to pledge@netcom.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76863">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76863" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a following acapulco/cancun mini-vacation voucher for sale: voucher entitles the holder to one roundtrip airfare and three days/two nights lodging for one or two adults in acapulco or cancun (your choice!), mexico. you have 15 months to use the voucher. all reservations must be made 60 days in advance. holiday and peak periods are excluded. flights generally depart mid-week, usually on tuesdays from more than 70 major airports. additional air transportation for additional person will be made available. $50.00 fully refundable deposit is required. it should be sent along with the voucher to casablanca express by june 12, 1993. after that you will get the reservation request form in which you have one year to travel. this package doesn't include meals, hotel taxes and gratuities. the voucher is offered by casablanca express, 6345 balboa blvd., ste. 130, encino, ca 91316. approximate retail value of the voucher is cited to be $1,100.00. the voucher is fully transferable. best offer takes it! landsberg@sbhep2.phy.sunysb.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76869">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76869" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 <><><><> l o o k i n g f o r d a n a w e i c k <><><><> he is ripping of people. don't deal with him!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please help: i am looking for dana weick. a month ago i made a deal with him over the net. i was to sell him some memory, in exchang for $100 and a 486-66 cpu. i thought the deal was great, so i went on with it. dana weick 4238 w las palmaritas phoenix, az 85051 (602)925-6123 in the day time (602)842-2145 in the evenings his email address is: weick@master.lds-az.loral.com update: no, i or my friends with me now have not delt with him, but we did try to call him, and there's no answer at his phone. the call was made at midnight est; god knows what time that is in arizona. we'll try again later. anybody want to saturate his mail box? michael c. sidman | mike@snowhite.eeap.cwru.edu electrical engineering and applied physics |____________________________ case western reserve university | "cleveland - it's not hell, cleveland, ohio 44106 | but a damn good simulation." 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76878">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76878" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a few just bought a new phone/answering machine combo so i really don't need my present setup. both items are in great condition. prices do not include shipping. if you have any questions contact me by e-mail or call me at (814)234-4439. toshiba ft6000 cordless phone $40 - rubber antenna, 10 number memory at&t 6300 answering machine $35 - remote operation (message retrieval, reset, ogm change) - toll saving feature - single tape operation 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76880">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76880" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 again, tell us about it ken! -=- andy -=- andy belville || it's taken me a long time, but i've belvilad@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu || fallen in love with a beautiful woman. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76882">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76882" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a hp laserjet iii for sale. it's been printed for less than 1500 pages according the self test report. i am asking $1000 for it. if interested, please e-mail. thanks! you can get a new newer model for a cheaper price thru mail order.... " i believed in reincarnation in a former life" 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76902">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76902" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have a powerbook 170 4/40 that is over 1 year old with no warranty but, in perfect condition (with original apple fax/modem), that i would consider selling you for around a $1000. get back to me with what you think would be equitable arrangements (sp?). have all manuals and system disks, some software in boxes and loaded, but threw out the mac packaging. -ts- * origin: hp nemesis ph (23:303/1) jeff lombardi - via swashnet node 23:303/1 uucp: ...!scicom!nemsis!jeff.lombardi internet: jeff lombardi@nemsis 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76927">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76927" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 unless otherwise noted, i am mainly interested in used items. if you have (any of) the following for sale, please contact me: email mbeck@vtssi.vt.edu phone (703)552-4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street #5500e blacksburg, virginia 24060 please give as much info as possible (brand, age, condition, etc) ~~~~~~~~~~wanted as of 10am, 4/27/93~~~~~~~~~~ computer equip: 1 cheap (<$100) tape drive - pretty much any kind for ibm (used) 1 memory expansion card for ps/2 model 50z 1 memory for ps/2 model 50z (new or used) 1 high density (1.2 mb) 5 1/4 disk drive external non-computer equip: 1 tv - 27" or bigger, stereo 1 vcr - 4 heads, stereo 1 receiver - 100 watts or more w/ dolby prologic surround sound 1 bed - full or queen sized - local offers only, please 1 desk - local offers only, please due to shipping constraints 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76935">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76935" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i have the following machine for sale: zenith 386, 20mhz machine 40 mb hard disk 3.5 inch 1.44 mb floppy drive 5.25 1.2 mb floppy drive 2 mb of ram vga card zcm 1492 ftm (flat tension mask) vga color monitor flat screen , non-glare 101 key keyboard, 2 serial ports, 1 parallel port original manuals that it came with. in excellent condition. $1100.00 or best (reasonable) offer. / / / / / arkady y. altman / / / aya@csg06.rtsg.mot.com _/_/_ /_/_/ _/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76936">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76936" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 an lcd overhead monitor for my school. (cga) looking for one in fairly good shape but the school doesn't have alot of money to spend. if you have one or know of one for sale please e-mail me. jonathan.evans@commlink.wariat.org ac216@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76937">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76937" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 trailer for sale 1990 hooper auto transport trailer 16' x 6.5' flatbed 4 ton gross weight capacity tandem axle suspension 7 x 14.5 mh nylon tires comes with a spare tire electric brakes stop lights & turn signals loading ramps - tilt for towing - removable front steel fence - removable stake sides - for attaching sideboards, tiedowns, etc rigged for hauling automobile, tractor, equipment, etc. less than 4000 miles since new serialized, with title and registration papers for sale by original owner @ $795 big hook-end chain and 4" web ratchet tiedown negotiable (*) greg hering (*) (*) senior software analyst phone : (205) 730-8160 (*) (*) aeronautical systems, msd fax : (205) 730-8178 (*) (*) intergraph corporation internet: glhering@ingr.com (*) (*) huntsville, al mailstop: lr23a5 (*) 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76939">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76939" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 ibm 3510-001 cd-rom drive 350ms. drive only make offer or trade. 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76941">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76941" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
<context>
 i would like to buy a 4 channel multitrack recorder. i would prefer a cassette machine such as those made by fostex, tascam, yamaha, etc. but would consider reel-to-reel as well. write me if you know of anything. try used sound (226 preston near gladstone) and songbird music (gladstone near bank street). both have used multi-tracks. they are listed in the phone book (also see the yellow pages under musical equipment - used). 
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</instance>
<instance id="misc.forsale76944">
<answer instance="misc.forsale76944" senseid="misc.forsale"/>
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 tuesday april 27, 1993 update this is my latest updated list of strange/bizzare/odd/independent comics that i have for sale. as always, most are cover price, but some i will actually look up in the guide to see "how much it is worth." this week's special: youngspud (spoof comics) oldblood/bragade (spoof comics) spoofs of your favorite image comics. both of these comics for $5.00 which includes shipping. a1 6 (featuring tank-girl) 10 adventurers (aricel and adventure series) the adventures of luther arkwright 2, 7 after apocalypse 1 alias blastpoint alien nation 2 angryman 2 animal man 35-38, 41-48, trade paperback (issues 1-9) anything but monday 1 apache dick 1-3 ape nation 1 arion the immortal 1 atlantis chronicles 1 avengers 263, 272, 300, 306, 324, 329, annual 15, 18, 19 avengers west coast 67 back to the future (cartoon adaption) badaxe 1 bade biker orson 4 batman: shadow of the bat (in polybag) batman vs predator 1 batman: year one bats, cats & cadillacs 1 beer nutz 2 bizarre 3-d zone 1 blackhawk book 1-3 black scorpion 1 blackthorne publishing flip-book 1 blood sword dynasty 28 bob's favorite comics 1 boof (caliber) 1 boris the bear 1 boris the bear 1 (slaughters the teenage radioactive black belt...) big numbers 1 blackhawk 1, 2, 3 breathtaker 1 butt biscuit 1 cadillacs & dinosaurs 1 cage 1 cap'n quick & a foozle 1 cosmic odyssey crossroads 1,5 cyberpunk 1 dark horse presents 1, 5, 25, 37, 40, 43 desert storm: send hussein to hell! 1 dragon chiang dungeoneers 3 elflord vol 2 no 4 elftrek 1 enchanter (eclipse) 3 eye of mogambo felix the cat 1 fire team 3 fish police 3-8, 22 flash gordon 1-4 fly 1 french ice 10, 13 full throttle 1 gajit gang 1 gambit 1 gatekeeper 1 get lost 1 ghost rider & captain america: fear give me liberty 4 godzilla 2 the greatest flash stories ever told green arrow 1-9, 12, 47-51, ann 1, 4 greenhaven 1 green hornet 5, 13, 14 green lantern 1 grey 1 grimjack 26, 71, 80 grimjack casefiles 5 guardians of the galaxy 25 hammer of god 1 hamster vice 1 harley rider 1 haunt of fear 1 hercules unbound 1 hollywood superstars 5 i saw it i am legend icarus 1-6 icon 1 idol 1 illuminatus 1 in-country nam 2 interface (epic) 1-3 intruder (tsr comics module) 3 invaders from home 1 invaders from mars (eternity) 2 jademan kung-fu special 1 jaguar 1 jason monarch 1 jeremiah: birds of prey 1, 2 john byrne's next men 1, 3, 4 judge dredd 41 justice machine 6, 29 justy 1, 2, 7, 8 kicker's inc kid cannibal (eternity) 2 kobra 1 labor force (blackthorne) 4 last american (epic) 1, 3, 4 last generation 1, 3, 4 last of the viking heroes 2 legend of the shield 1 legend killer 1 legend of kamui 1, 4, 6, 13, 14, 19 lensman 7 lethargic comics, weakly 1 light and darkness war 1, 2 living stone mountain loner 1 lords of the ultra-realms 1 lucifer 1 m.a.c.h. 1 (fleetway) secret weapon 1, 2 master 1 maxwell mouse follies 1 maze 5, 18, 19 merlin 3, 6 meta-4 (first) 1 metal bikini (eternity) 6 metropol 1, 11 miami mice 3 (marke bode) midnite the rebel skunk 1 mister e 1 mr. monster's true crime 2 ms. tree (renagade) 26, 28, 37, 40 ms. tree in 3-d ms. tree quarterly (dc) 3, 4 mummy 1, 2 mummy,s curse (aricel) 1, 3 myth conceptions 1 nathaniel dusk 2 nathan impaler: monster hunter (night realm) 1 nemesis the warlock (quality) 1, 5 new beginning 1 new frontier 1 newstralia 3 new triumph featuring northguard 4 new york year zero 1-4 night life (caliber) 8 night zero (fleetway) 2 ninja elite (adventure) 1-5, 7 nosferatu 1 official buz sawyer 1 official prince valiant 1, 2 olympians 1 one 1 open season 1 open space 2, 3 oracle 1 original black cat 1 ox cow o' war 1 pandora pill 1 panorama 1 pathways to fantasy 1 patrick rabbit 1 penguin in paris 4 personality comics presents musics comics on tour the beatles 1 personality comics presents rolling stones pineapple army 6 planet of the apes 8 portia prinz of the glamazons 4 psycho killers (comic zone) 6 (richard ramirez punisher and captain america: blood and glory 1-3 question (dc) 35 red heat 1 retief 1 rhudiprrt the prince of fur 2 rivit (blackthorne) 1 robocop vs. the terminator 1 rock and roll comics 56 (david bowie) rockin rollin miner ants (fate) 4 roger rabbit's toontown 1 runners (rip off press) 1 sable (first) 19 same slade robohunter samurai son of death scarlet kiss 1 scavengers (quality) 9, 10 scorched earth 1, 3 scout: war shaman 4 screen monsters 1 sensational she-hulk (marvel graphic novel 18) shatterpoint (eternity) 2 shuriken 3 shuriken cold steel 1 silverfawn 1 sinbad (adventure) book 1: the four trials #4 sisterhood of steel 7 skreemer (dc) 1, 2 slash maraud 1-6 song of the cid (caliber) 2 sonic disrupters 6 space ark 1 spellbinders (quality) 3 spider 1-2 spider-man special 1 (vs. venom, unicef giveaway 1993) spider-man and power pack (giveaway) spoof (spawn spoof) st george 1 stalkers (epic) 1 stark future (aricel) 5 starriors 1-4 steed & mrs peel 1 straw men (all-american) 1, 2 street wolf 2 super shark humanoids 1 survivors 1 swords of shar-pei 1 syphons 1 tales from the aniverse 3 tales of ordinary madness 1-4 tales of the green hornet 1, 2 tales of the jackalope 1 thundersaur 1 tomb of dracula 1 torrid affairs 4, 5 toxic avenger 1-3 transmutation of ike garuda 1 trekker 1-5 trouble with tigers (antarctic) 1 twilight man (first) 1, 4 2000 ad showcase 50 ufo alien contact (comic zone) 1 ultra klutz 1 unicorn isle 2 valkyrie 1-3 anne rice: interview with a vampire 1 anne rice: vampire companion 1 anne rice: vampire lestat 5 venus wars 1 video jack 1-5 violent cases wacky squirrel summer fun special 1 wanderers 1 war 1, 2 warheads 1 warlock 5 (aricel) 20 wasteland 5 web 1 weird 1 wizards of the last resort 1 world without end 4 x-terminators 1-4 zell sworddancer 1 zorro 1 most comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards. shipping is $1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff. i am willing to haggle. i have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what you've been looking for, and maybe i can help. i will trade for other comics as well as computer equipment, video equipment, etc... let me know what you want to trade!! geoffrey r. mason | jrm@elm.circa.ufl.edu department of psychology | mason@webb.psych.ufl.edu university of florida | prothan@maple.circa.ufl.edu 
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 road and track (2/88) bmw325is 0-60 7.5s, 1/4 mile 15.7s (road test annual 1993) 0-60 8.3s, 1/4 mile 16.2s those are the numbers i was quoting, i have driven the older model but not the sure sounds like they got a ringer. the 325is i drove was definitely faster than that. if you want to quote numbers, my aw autofile shows 0-60 in 7.4, 1/4 mile in 15.9. it quotes car and driver's figures of 6.9 and 15.3. oh, btw, these numbers are for the 325i. i don't know how the addition of variable valve timing for 1993 affects it. but don't take my word for it. go drive it. 
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 i'm looking for a replacement radio/tape player for a 1984 toyota tercel. standard off-the-shelf unit is fine, but every place i've gone to (service merchandise, etc.) doesn't have my car in its model application book. i want to just take out the old radio, and slide in the new, with minimal time spent hooking it up and adjusting the dashboard. if you have put in a new unit in a similar car, i'd like to hear what brand, how easy it was to do the change, and any other relevant information. please answer via e-mail. thanks, tom ostrand tom ostrand e-mail: tjo@scr.siemens.com siemens corporate research phone: 609-734-6569 755 college road east fax: 609-734-6565 princeton, nj 08540-6668 
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 i am thinking about getting an infiniti g20. in consumer reports it is ranked high in many catagories including highest in reliability index for compact cars. mitsubushi galant was second followed by honda accord). a couple of things though: 1) in looking around i have yet to see anyone driving this car. i see lots of honda's and toyota's. 2) there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g20, fully loaded, at dealer cost (i have check this out and the numbers match up). they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid-1993 version (includes dual air-bags) and want to get rid of their old 1993's. i guess my question is: is this a good deal? also, can anyone give me any feedback on infiniti? carl hoffman p.s. the other cars that i have test driven and which are in the running are: mitsubishi galant, honda accord, and toyota camary 
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 i'd like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs-r butt anyday, and it's a lot cheaper to boot i will take this one with a definate grain of salt. performance data shows a if this poster has some proof(other than "my friend blew one away last week" want proof? here is some data on acceleration and handling from motor trend (apr '93). integra gs-r beretta gtz 0-60 7.7 7.7 1/4 mile 16.0/88.1 16.1/87.8 l acc (g's) .84 .86 slalom 63.7 68.4 ***wrong*** why don't you look again at motor trend's, slalom times, they are 67.9, right along with the integra, and the car does that with small 14 inch tires that are all -weather xgtv4, not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta. your acceleartion times also vary, magazine to magazine road & track and car& driver have the gs-r at 6.8 to 8.0 for road and track. also quarter mile times vary from 15.4 to 16.1 you can't tell exactly by the numbers. furthermore, the integra will definately outrun the beretta on the high end. car & driver and road & track have the gs-r doing 136 to 141 mph, and it gets there fast. so, the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration. and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage (160/117 (hp/torque) for the integra vs. 180/160 for the beretta). ***you always believe those exact numbers, why don't you drive a gs-r, and see for your self, while the gs-r has a low 117 torqye, its high gearing over a 8000 rpm make up for the difference (still wouldn't call it a torque moster though!) the biggest advantage would have to be the price. the integra costs $19,111 (as tested motor trend), the gtz costs $16,134 (as tested). the gtz also has standard nicities and airbag and antilock brakes. an airbag is not available on the integra and lower models do not have abs. considering you save almost $3,000 dollars for the beretta, and the quad4 is a reliable engine, it doesn't make sense to get the integra as a performance coupe, which is what people have been trying to make it out to be. quad 4 reliable, yeah, what's your definition of reliable- if that's reliable, then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect (not to mention, a hell of alot smoother and quieter - balance shafts.the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down. you can rev that car all day, everyday, and you'll never blow a hose, or crack the block, or anything else. (i speak from expierence!) i'm not saying the quad 4 is a bad engine, but don't highlight reliability when you comparing it to a acura engine. and while the integra costs alot more, it is a better investment since it will hold its value considerably much better. and does a nice job at being a sporty car and practical at the same time. note: this isn't a flame on the gtz, or other gm quad 4 products. the berreta is a nice car, and puts out respectable performance and a very reasonable price not to mention, it has an airbag. but to start quoting figures from one source, isn't too reliable. read other sources, and drive both cars. while i haven't driven a gtz, i have driven gts, and grand ams with quad 4 engines, (so they are similair.) 
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 don't have a list of what's been said before, so hopefully not repeating. how about horizontally mounted oil filters (like on my ford) that, no matter how hard you try, will spill out their half quart on the bottom of the car when you change them? joe st.lucas stlucas@gdwest.gd.com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems, san diego work is something to keep me busy between ultimate frisbee games. 
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 does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f350 truck? o naah. just a coupla nice big bumps. 
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 any reason you are limited to the two mentioned? they aren't really at the same point along the suv spectrum - not to mention price range. how about the explorer, trooper, blazer, montero, and if the budget allows, the land cruiser? any advice on how to buy a land cruiser? my local toyota dealer says they get two a year, and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list. forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires. and if they are that rare, i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on jonathan edwards edwards@intranet.com intranet, inc 617-527-7020 
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 my sister has an mgb. she has one from the last year they were produced (1978? 1979?). its in very good shape. i've been bugging her for years last year produced: 1980. about selling it. i've said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability. which one of us is right? are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay $6k to 8k for an old mg? are there a lot out in the yes, there are still alot of mgbs out there. the earlier cars (pre 74-1/2) are usually more desirable due to certain things that went with having chrome bumpers (ride height, generally more power). the older cars are appreciating... slowly. the newer ones seem to be at a stable level at the moment. $6 to $8k would require extremely good condition and low miles. if the car is in good shape and regular maintenance is kept up on it, the car should last for a long time. there are still plenty of parts sources ouththere. the mgb is a great, fun little car. if she is keeping it solely in the hopes that it is going to appreciate, tell her to sell it. it is not worth waiting the time it would take to appreciate to a real profitable level. *rick guynn -mg driver soontobe. * mga 1600 mkii * *rcg1597@zeus.tamu.edu * rebuild (complete) to be finished ?? * *texas a&m university * * *keeper of the eternal octagon * `69 mgb roadster * * a.k.a. the marque symbol that * i'll have it registered soon, * * refuses to die. * honest! * 
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 sayeth sjwyrick@lbl.gov (steve wyrick): $anybody keeping track of how many of these there are? so far i have $miata, tredia, previa, sentra, maxima, altima, camry, and justy, not to $mention lexus, acura and infiniti! you're apparently including names that are, or appear to be, derivatives of real words in english or some other language (e.g. acura, infiniti, maxima, altima), in which case you missed ones such as integra, supra, allante', capri and calibra. in canada, add serenia and precidia. if you count misspellings, add protege and (in canada) vigor. how about the forthcoming mondeo, if it is given that name in north america? others might include celica, corolla, paseo, and tercel. in canada, add asu"na. |i know that sometimes my jaw clicks when i eat. void where prohibited.| |have you seen this boy? lust never sleeps. i say hurl. honey, i'm | |home. _________________________________________________________________| |_____/ silver@bokonon.uucp ...!{uunet|becker|xrtll}!bokonon!silver | 
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 @>>has anyone had any experience with geico's extended @>>warranty plan. it seems to be slightly less expensive than @>>the normal dealer-sponsored policy. @>and once again....*never* buy extended warranties....they are a complete and @>total ripoff period!!!! you are better off taking your money and putting it in a bank and using that money for repairs. many extended warranties never @>pay or have co-payments etc. how many people will actually put that money in the bank and keep it there for the sole use of a automotive repair......maybe for people who have a hard time saving money or don't want the hassle of worrying about paying for everything the extended warranty is worth it.....for some people it is worth it...others not, and for some the peace of mind knowing you won't have too many unexpected expenses is enough.....if you drive a lot, your basic warranty can be up in a little longer than a year....how many people can make the car payments as well as large repairs.... it may work for some people...... andrew bernstein motorola inc. "there's no such thing as sanity, 1299 e. algonquin road and that's the sanest fact" schaumburg, il 60196-1077 ---- dire straits bernstei@next3.corp.mot.com (next mail ok) 
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 <apparently you're not a woman - my husband hates the auto door locks features, but forgets that besides families with children, a woman <feels safer in a car that locks easily (in addition to watching around & checking out if anyone's near me when i get to my car - never park <in a secluded spot, etc - have my keys ready to open the door so i'm not fumbling in my purse looking for them .... this has me thinking. is there a biological reason why women can't put their keys in their pants pockets like men do? i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants. i put my keys in one and wallent in another. many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely. everything is that much simpler for me. why can't women do the same? is is biological (ie, not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet) or is it the way they are raised by the parents? 
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 has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons? tercels, corollas, camrys. have their designers no aesthetic sense at all? dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.autos101576">
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 one of the local dealers has a used (7k miles) '93 probe gt on the lot with a photocopy of a document taped to the window saying the dealership bought the car back from the previous owner because of "engine noises", but that the ford district rep had ok'ed the car saying those noises were "normal". i thought it was worth looking into (the car seems otherwise clean) and mentioned this to a co-worker, who proceeded to tell me a horror story about her son's '93 probe gt, which had several problems, ending with engine noises which she said "was something with the heads", that ford acknowledged the noise, said they were working on it, but didn't have a cure as of yet. her son traded the car in (and i checked -- not the same car). so i have some evidence of a reoccuring problem with the v6 in the probe gt's, and by extension with the madza 626 and mx-6. anything to this? i'd love to consider buying the gt (i'm turning 40 -- time for my scheduled mid life crisis :-) but i'd hate to find out i just became the proud owner of a lemon. 
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 according to a lojack representative i saw recently, lojack must be installed by an authorized lojack dealer, and is placed in one of (roughly) 30 spots in the car... steve m. att.com!mantic!srmal 
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<instance id="rec.autos101580">
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 bottom line: i did it and it worked. some 'tips and techniques' are included here: does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f350 truck? this is a 4x4 with leaf springs front and rear. so, with a big socket and an air wrench and a floor jack (and a hydrolic bottle jack ...) can i do this at home? i found that i needed some smaller sockets to undo the shocks. and a can of wd40 helped... the sockets needed were metric (exact fit) but i was able to use some sae sockets... 13/16 and 15/16 are rather close to 21 and 24mm... it can be fun having a canadian ford ... i'm pictureing this: undo u bolts. put a bottle jack on the axle and raise the bed/frame to take stress off of the leaf spring. undo the end bolts/bushings. drop the spring. turn the bottom leaf. re-connect the spring bolts... sounds about right. didn't have to undo the end bolts/bushings. just the 2 u bolts on each side and the shock absorber. jacking up the frame some more (had to put the spare tire on the garage floor and put a wooden platform on top of that to get the 'floor jack' high enough to raise the frame ... i't one talll truck...) lifted the spring free of the axel. taking out the block gave me enough room to undo the pin holding the spring pack together. the spring pack was held together with a nut on top and a round head on the other end.... no wrench head... vice grips worked fine... i soaked the nut with wd40 and it came right off. flipped the bottom spring and then... is this a nightmare waiting to happen, or an easy, though physically demanding, thing to do? well, it's easier than doing a decent trigger job on a 1911a1 :-) (ok, well, maybe it's not _that_ easy, but it's not terribly difficult.) i donno ... i'm a little more sore today than after working on a 1911a1 ... a 1.5 foot pipe cheater was a real help. torque spec for the u bolt nuts is 150 to 200 ft-lbs (!). a 1911-a1 doesn't have that kind of torque spec ... it was a 'challenge' to get the 'pack bolt' back in the spring pack. squeeze pack with two hands, hold bolt with third, put nut on with fourth while picking up wrench and vice grips with fifth and sixth hands ... i used some string to tie the pack together while holding the pin in for alignment... then i could let go to get the {nut, wrench, vice grips...}. getting the pin back lined up with the lift block was a challenge too... until i discovered that the axel had 1) tilted and/or 2) rolled forward. one the drivers side, a bottle jack under the front of the differential tilted it back in line enough for the pin head to drop into the right hole. on the passenger side, i had to wrestle the wheel into rolling forward about 1/2 inch to get things to line up. spent more than an hour working on getting the pin head into the hole in the lift block with levers and ropes and impliments of distruction before i took a break and thought about why it wasn't lined up anymore (since it had been lined up before, and *i* didn't move it, something else must have ... hmmm, axle no longer constrained not to move ... hmmm, move it back... hmmm...). after that, it was all much easier to 'close up'. btw, the ride is now softer, but not quite as soft as i was hoping for. at least it now sits level.. e. michael smith ems@apple.com 'whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. boldness has genius, power and magic in it.' - goethe i am not responsible nor is anyone else. everything is disclaimed. 
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 sure sounds like they got a ringer. the 325is i drove was definitely faster than that. if you want to quote numbers, my aw autofile shows 0-60 in 7.4, 1/4 mile in 15.9. it quotes car and driver's figures of 6.9 and 15.3. oh, btw, these numbers are for the 325i. car and driver rated the 325is (1988) at 7.2 0-60 , 1/4 at 15.2 (after 30k miles) last time i checked 8#}. automobile magazine rated new 325is 1/4 mile@16.2. gee , aint quotiin funner than the dickens! sounds like we need a race. i'll let you have the newer version. can someone out there lend me a 1988 325is for a day 8-]. i wont hurt it, i promise. i don't know how the addition of variable valve timing for 1993 affects it. but don't take my word for it. go drive it. actually i will take your word on it. i refuse to test it (new 325is) because i love bmw's and would probably want to buy it. problem is, my income just doesn't support that. 
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 [stuff deleted...] the silly thing about this whole argument is that most of the trunk releases (i'm tempted to say all, but there's bound to be a counterexample) only operate if the car is on (acc or running). thus you can't easily pop the trunk without starting the car. "most" cars? the only cars i've ever seen with this "feature" have been gm cars. my `88 mazda, '80 honda, and (coming soon) '93 probe all have cable-operated releases [...]. my '84 camaro had an electric hatch release that was (thankfully) independent of the key in the ignition (the exception to the rule mentioned in my first sentence). i should probably have said "glovebox trunk releases." i haven't encountered any glovebox releases that are cable operated. numerous gm and several ford/mercury cars that i've encountered have electrical releases in the glovebox, and all of the ones i've seen needed the ignition on to some degree to operate. your camaro example is noted, but since it's a hardtop it's not a big deal. i've never run into a convertible with a cable-operated trunk release -- i'd agree 100% that in such an environment a cable or always-active electrical release would be rather stupid. jim frost jimf@centerline.com my honda has a cable release that can be locked out with the ignition key. the valet key can be left with someone and will not unlock the trunk or enable the cable release. i remember my mothers '86 corvette that had an electronic hatch release located on the drivers door, which was always active. the fact that the car had no real trunk makes the security measure of beign able to dis-able the hatch release unnecessary. 
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 2) there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g20, fully loaded, at dealer cost (i have check this out and the numbers match up). they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid-1993 version (includes dual air-bags) and want to get rid of their old 1993's. is this really the dealer's cost? did you get the dealer's cost by looking at the invoice? there may be factory to dealer incentives. i'd check this out, since i have trouble believing that a dealer would sell a car to me at his cost. dealer invoice is not necessarily the dealer cost. 
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 |> i read an article in the 3/25 chicago tribune stating that chrysler is |> having problems addressing the demand for the 3.5l engine for it's lh |> cars. can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or |> how long they have been told they'll have to wait?? |> thanks! |> john mas |> e-mail address :: mas@skcla.monsanto.com i ordered an intrepid es on jan 25th and haven't seen it yet. i called a couple of weeks ago and was told 2-3 more weeks. it's probably time to call again. charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division ms co1-01 15201 nw greenbrier pkwy beaverton, or 97006 phone: (503)629-7605 email: cfj@ssd.intel.com 
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 anyone have figures or pointers to references about how fast/much car prices have gone up in the last decade? 
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 hello testing 
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<answer instance="rec.autos101590" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my friend brought a subaru svx recently. i had drove it for couples times and i think its a great car, esp on snow. however when she took it to a local subaru dealer for a oil change, the bill came out to be about 80 dollars. the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on a svx it is necessary to disassemble a metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour. at first, we think we are being ripped off so she phone to a dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price. so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem ? and if the oil change story is true, then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me. by the way, the car looks great. swd wan. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101591">
<answer instance="rec.autos101591" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 could someone out there please tell me how i could get onto the saab mailing list. specifically i need the address and instructions on what to do. thanks in advance 
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<instance id="rec.autos101592">
<answer instance="rec.autos101592" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 cup holders (driving is an importantant enough undertaking) this is a good idea - so you can carry your (non-alcoholic) drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them. cellular phones and mobile fax machines (see above) fax machines, yes. cellular phones: why not get a hands-free model? fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs. seemingly unique to american luxury cars. the big three haven't yet realized that the 1970s are over. any gold trim. i agree. just another display of yuppie excess. jon dunn< 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101593">
<answer instance="rec.autos101593" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i test drove a mazda 626 lx this past weekend and liked it. the dealer offered it for $15k. 1) is this a good price? 2) any comments on 626 in general? please use email. thanks att!hotsoup!peng 
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<instance id="rec.autos101594">
<answer instance="rec.autos101594" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'd like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs-r butt anyday, and it's a lot cheaper to boot comparing the gtz and gsr is apples to oranges, somewhat like a mustang 5.0 and a crx, both have very different ways of doing things and ought to appeal to different buyers, i.e., i don't think an acura owner would be seen dead in a chevy dealership or vice versa. [stuff deleted] are all -weather xgtv4, not to mention that the integra rides alot better than no integra i have seen comes with all-season tires. the gtz does come with much bigger 16" wheels. along with the integra, and the car does that with small 14 inch tires that your acceleartion times also vary, magazine to magazine road & track and car& driver have the gs-r at 6.8 to 8.0 for road and track. the c+d figures are almost certainly bogus and based on a hot prototype supplied by acura. the mt figures are more plausible. also quarter mile times vary from 15.4 to 16.1 16.1 sounds reasonable, probably faster than regular integras. so, the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration. and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage (160/117 (hp/torque) for the integra vs. 180/160 for the beretta). ***you always believe those exact numbers, why don't you drive a gs-r, and see for your self, while the gs-r has a low 117 torqye, its high gearing over a 8000 the gsr gearing is horrible for day to day driving. it needs a 6 speed box more than any other modern car. essentially 5th in a regualr integra equals 4th in the gsr, and the regular integras are very buzzy at speed. rpm make up for the difference (still wouldn't call it a torque moster though!) considering you save almost $3,000 dollars for the beretta, and the quad4 is a reliable engine, it doesn't make sense to get the integra as a the only person i knew with a gtz had it bought back by gm as a lemon. it was a piecve of junk, but very quick for fwd. quad 4 reliable, yeah, what's your definition of reliable- if that's reliable, then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect the only gsr owner i know had the engine throw a rod with less than 5k miles, a rare screw up by honda. both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars. the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101597">
<answer instance="rec.autos101597" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons? tercels, corollas, camrys. have their designers no aesthetic sense at all? the new camry wagon may just be even uglier than my tercel. :-) toyota has cornered the market on ugly station wagons. after seeing the new camry sedan, i had thought toyota would finally turn out something nice-looking. the new camry station wagon bears a strong resemblance to a hearse, and a weird looking one at that. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101598">
<answer instance="rec.autos101598" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all. speeding is a moving violation, committed by the operator, not the owner. the owner may be a rental agency, a dealer, a private party, or a government agency. as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely, the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does. the car may even have been driven without the owner's knowledge or consent. i can't believe a mailed ticket, where the driver is not identified, would stand up in court. this is obviously a lazy, cynical, boneheaded, fascist way to extort revenue, and has nothing to do with public safety. what do photo radar units look like? also, what major u.s. cities use it? jon dunn< 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101599">
<answer instance="rec.autos101599" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc 24 valve 3.4? six. it gets 214 hp, and has a hell of a lot of room, great styling, and abs, with four wheel disk breaks. the lh cars won automobile "automobile of the year" award, and are quiet impressive. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101600">
<answer instance="rec.autos101600" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 peninsula cruisers third annual autofaire what: car show (for any and all types of vehicles including pedal cars) where: kenai mall, kenai, alaska when: may 14, 15, & 16, 1993 who: peninsula cruisers car club, kenai, ak (907-283-4979) why: proceeds of this event to benefit the cooper landing ambulance corps. general: this car show is open to all types of cars, trucks, motorcycles, factory and modified, mild to wild, antique, special interests, race, drag, mudders, hi-po, or just plain ugly :) this is a fun event, intended for the occassional gear-head to the most serious gear-slammer. we would like to have as many entrants as possible, but please contact us for space availability ( first come first serve) p.s. all out of town entrants can stay right next door at the kenai merrit inn for a special rate of $60 a night (single or double occupancy) call the merit @ 907-283-6131 if you'd like any further information, you can contact me at the addresses below. mel mckay----cant drive 55!!!!!!! & rebelheart, a gorgeous 90 supercoupe remember ....55 saves lives, 110 saves twice as many :) = rebelheart | = = |"too old for some things... = = #define bitnet <fsmlm2@alaska> | too young to know = = #define e-mail <fsmlm2@acad3.alaska.edu> | which things." = 
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<instance id="rec.autos101603">
<answer instance="rec.autos101603" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 this has me thinking. is there a biological reason why women can't put their keys in their pants pockets like men do? i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants. i put my keys in one and wallent in another. many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely. everything is that much simpler for me. why can't women do the same? is is biological (ie, not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet) or is it the way they are raised by the parents? oh pulleeze! it's not biology at all, it's clothing design. women's clothing is generally designed to be as non-functional as possible. it's only been in the last five years or so that you could buy women's pants with pockets deep enough to carry anything in. previously, deep pockets were virtually unknown in women's clothing. skirts generally have better pockets now, too. dresses, espcially fancy dresses, are still pretty hopeless. i often hand my driver's license over to my husband if we're dressed up to go out somewhere, so i don't have to be encumbered by a if women consistently bought functional clothing, and boycotted the manufacturers who refuse to make functional women's clothing, i think manufacturers would tend to bow to market pressures. there's an interesting chapter in susan faludi's backlash that described what happened the last time clothing manufacturers ignored the need for functional women's clothing. the manufactuing industry lost millions. from a woman who would rather buy men's clothing with decent pockets and long legs and high waists than women's clothing without.... ******** lmann@jjmhome.uucp (internet) laurie.mann (genie) ********* ** claiming that sex education leads to irresponsible sex is like ** ***** claiming that driver education leads to car accidents. ***** 
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<instance id="rec.autos101604">
<answer instance="rec.autos101604" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend: model wgt hp stealth 3086 164 stealth es 3186 222 stealth rt 3373 222 stealth rt tt 3803 300 okay, i'll take "their" word for it. i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known. the mustang is rated at 205. 222-205 is 17. you have a 17hp advantage over a mustang seems that the 1993 mustang 5.0 is rated at 205 hp only because ford changed its testing procedures. under the older procedures, it still rates closer to 225 hp. that means that the mustang has 3 hp more. and you still haven't posted any weight figures for the mustang. big threat. you are ko'd by a civic, acording to c+d yeah, sure, in your wet dreams. and that's probably where you got that 11.2 second 0-60 for the stealth. i'll check c&d's 5/91 issue. strange that you claim to have that go ahead and check asshole, you'll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting. car+ drive, may 91. stealth es, 222hp, for 3 posts now you've been harping on this may 1991 issue of car & driver without posting any numbers. why not? because they prove me right and you ain't got the guts to admit it? yeah, thought so. the sentra se-r really is alot quicker than the 222hp fwd sports car. you are close to the 9k sentra-e. go look up the numbers in c+d - and report please. no, i'm going to play your game - no way, sentra's are slow! i took a test drive and it took 21.7 to go 0-50! why, even the hyundai excel blows it doors off. any 12 yr old knows that! i race and i'll kick your butt! blah, blah, blah... let's see ... yep, that sounds just like you. oh man, i just got it! beavis & butthead - that's you! who would buy a fwd automatic, that costs $20k+ that is capable of only a 15.8 and would plainly be dusted by a se-r? i dunno, why did you? but why would someone pick the dodge stealth rt over the nissan sentra? all it takes is one look. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101605">
<answer instance="rec.autos101605" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 well, there *is* a difference. i don't happen to have my sae manual handy, but oil viscosity in general _decreases_ with temperature. the sae numbers are based on a `typical' curve that oils used to all have, running from (say) the viscosity of a room-temperature 90-weight at 0c, down to (say) that of a room-temperature 5-weight at 20c, for a typical 40-weight oil. oils that are designed for operation in `normal' temperatures just have a weight specification. oils that are designed for operation in exceedingly cold temperatures have a `w' tacked on the end, so in winter in a cold place, you'd stick 10w in your car in the winter and 40 in it in the summer, to approximate the appropriate viscosity throughout the year. modern multi-viscosity oils change viscosity much less with temperature. as a result, their viscosity graphs cross over several curves. a multi-vis specification pegs the curve at two temperatures, a `normal' operating temperature and a `cold' one (though i can't remember the numbers...). in any event, the weights do indicate a significant difference. remember that your engine is temperature-regulated (by the thermostat and radiator or air fins) most of the time -- unless you overheat it or any weight of oil is better than no oil, or than very old, carbonized oil. thin oil won't (in general) lubricate as well at temperature, thicker oil will (like a 20w50) will lubricate better at temperature, but not as well during startup, when most engine wear occurs. if you're planning on making long drives, the 20w50 is probably fine (esp. in the summer) in your 10w40 car. but if you're making short drives, stick to the 10w40. don't drink soap! dilute dilute! ok! 
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<instance id="rec.autos101607">
<answer instance="rec.autos101607" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend: model wgt hp stealth 3086 164 stealth es 3186 222 stealth rt 3373 222 stealth rt tt 3803 300 okay, i'll take "their" word for it. these arethe numbers i have been stating in the past 5-10 messages. it really angers me that you insisted you were right, and that you had no clue what your own car weighed. why didn't you check when i first told you that your figures were implausible? i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known. the mustang is rated at 205. 222-205 is 17. you have a 17hp advantage over a mustang seems that the 1993 mustang 5.0 is rated at 205 hp only because ford changed its testing procedures. under the older procedures, it still rates closer to 225 hp. that means that the mustang has 3 hp more. i'd like to hear a better explanatin of how you come to that conclusion from the above data. big threat. you are ko'd by a civic, acording to c+d yeah, sure, in your wet dreams. and that's probably where you got no, sorry your wrong again. *you* quoted the del sol as doing 0-60 in 8.1 according to c+d. interestingly, the stealth es, which is *faster* than your rt does the samerun in 8.5 seconds according to c+d. kind of embarassing isn't it? why didn't you check the figures before posting? it only makes you look stupid when you are caught out twice with *your own* figures. that 11.2 second 0-60 for the stealth. i'll check c&d's 5/91 issue. strange that you claim to have that you really should have checked. go ahead and check asshole, you'll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting. car+ drive, may 91. stealth es, 222hp, for 3 posts now you've been harping on this may 1991 issue of car & driver *2* without posting any numbers. why not? because they prove me right and you ain't got the guts to admit it? yeah, thought so. if you insist, i gave you every chance to retract, but: dodge stealth es auto does an 8.5/16.4 - wonder why you couldn't find it? do you realize that a 9k sentra (c+d) will run a 16.7, that a sentra se-r or saturn will run in the 15's? don't you think it is kind of strange that your 222hp sports car is so easily beaten. a mustang 5.0, which weights about the same (according to *your* numbers), has less power and is much quicker? care to explain. don't be abusive, just try and come up with a rational explanation of where those 222hp went to, its a mystery to me. the sentra se-r really is alot quicker than the 222hp fwd sports car. you are close to the 9k sentra-e. go look up the numbers in c+d - and report please. no, i'm going to play your game - no way, sentra's are slow! i took a test drive and it took 21.7 to go 0-50! why, even the hyundai excel blows it doors i guess you drove a 5 speed and couldn't shift/ 
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<instance id="rec.autos101610">
<answer instance="rec.autos101610" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've had my subaru liberty 4wd station wagon for about 8 months now. saying i'm happy with it would be an understatement! just great. well built, handles beautifully, plenty of power. i've only had if 'off tar' once. did a trip over the mountains on a narrow, windy dirt road, often _very dodgey_ in parts. the subaru did it with ease. i havent had so much fun driving a car for years! any other owners out there? * steve green * "hey rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outa' my hat!" * * comms group * "that trick never works" * * its branch * "nothin' up my sleeve - presto!" * * csiro australia * "no doubt about it - i gotta get another hat" * 
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<instance id="rec.autos101614">
<answer instance="rec.autos101614" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm thinking of buying a new dodge intrepid - has anyone had any experiences that they'd like to share? 
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<instance id="rec.autos101615">
<answer instance="rec.autos101615" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an '87 honda prelude? the speaker went scratchy, and i want to access its pins. why are you posting this tripe to rec.autos.vw? don't drink soap! dilute dilute! ok! 
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<instance id="rec.autos101616">
<answer instance="rec.autos101616" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the nice thing about real platinum plugs is that you don't have to change them very often at all. (i think like 50,000 miles!!) they might cost $10 each, but they would save for themselves in the long run. my t-bird sc's manual says to replace the platinum plugs every 60,000mi. wal-mart has autolite platinum plugs for $2.00 each. are these "real" platinum plugs? (i had bosch platinums in my '80 fiesta and my dad had 'em in his '84 bronco--note the keyword "had." they didn't last very long (much less than 50,000mi) before they had to be replaced. i agree that they weren't the greatest.) james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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<instance id="rec.autos101618">
<answer instance="rec.autos101618" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 [stuff about rhd desoto's deleted] well sweden and australia, and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the "wrong" side of the road. i believe sweden changed in 1968. the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday.... the "wrong" side of the road, so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101619">
<answer instance="rec.autos101619" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.vw summary: expires: references: <1993apr5.211457.12789@ole.cdac.com> sender: reply-to: ct22@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (constantino tobio) followup-to: distribution: organization: columbia university how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an '87 honda prelude? the speaker went scratchy, and i want to access its pins. i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit. ssave@ole.cdac.com quick question. why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup? newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.vw summary: followup-to: distribution: world organization: columbia university newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.vw newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.vw summary: expires: references: <1993apr5.211457.12789@ole.cdac.com> sender: reply-to: ct22@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (constantino tobio) followup-to: distribution: organization: columbia university how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an '87 honda prelude? the speaker went scratchy, and i want to access its pins. i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit. ssave@ole.cdac.com quick question. why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup? constantino tobio, jr. ** ct22@columbia.edu ** "tremble you weaklings, cower in fear, i am your ruler, land, sea and air. immense in my girth, erect i stand tall, i'm a nuclear murderer. i am polaris!" - megadeth, "rust in peace" 
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<instance id="rec.autos101622">
<answer instance="rec.autos101622" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 why don't you look again at motor trend's, slalom times, they are 67.9, right along with the integra, and the car does that with small 14 inch tires that are all -weather xgtv4, not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta. my gs came with xgt v4s and they are not all weather tires. i took out my right front bumper sliding on packed snow (not ice), before i learned this fact. i immediately bought xgt h4s which are definately all-weather. a carrera 4 i walk by everyday has xgt v4s on it even. the michelin dealer where i bought my new tires said the v4s were made out of a different rubber that gets really hard and slick when the weather gets near feezing. said he'd only try to sell me those tires during the winter if we were in texas and not colorado. -- o an inactive lifestyle eric j. lorenzo --- </\_ violates our genetic warranty lorenzo@rintintin.colorado.edu --- -\/\ not to excercise is not also @spot & @ucsu --- /_ to be fully human. -keith johnsgard 
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<instance id="rec.autos101623">
<answer instance="rec.autos101623" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 any truth to the rumor of an awd 3-series for '94? i believe this info was published in either popular science or autoweek a couple of months ago. also, a friend told me that bmw used to make an awd 325 called the 325ix. i'd appreciate any info about this car too. thanks.. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101624">
<answer instance="rec.autos101624" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i can't imagine any civic or saturn owners flex'n there egos in stop light races. it generates as much excitement as two nerds challenging each other in a game of one-on-one basketball!! the sl2 does 0-60 in about 8.5; note that this is closer to a 968 than to a paseo or storm (pseudo-sporty cars). that's a ridiculous comparison, i know, but the point is that saturns (and high-end civics, for that matter) accelerate just fine, in fact better than most unimproved "muscle" cars of the 60s; 300 hp is great, but tied to 2 tons, it just doesn't go that quick. saturns, on the other hand, use 125 hp tied to 2400 lbs with some short gearing to move very quickly off the line. anyway.... while your 0-60 time is consistent with most car magazines and reports, i saw the pbs motorweek show clock a 5-speed sl2 at 7.9 seconds. i'm sure that most sl2 owners will be very lucky to get this speed, but 7.9 seconds is still astonishingly fast for a small 4-door. a new civic ex runs about 8.2 seconds 0-60, if i'm not mistaken. most cars in this class are lucky to be in the 9-second range. mihir shah 
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<instance id="rec.autos101626">
<answer instance="rec.autos101626" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ...deleted lines... well sweden and australia, and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the "wrong" side of the road. i believe sweden changed in 1968. the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday.... as i live in sweden i remember the day perfectly well. we changed side 1967-09-03 (or 03-sep-1967). i don't remeber the exactly time but it was in the night. (in the 'big' cities like stockholm & gothenburg all trafic was forbidden, exept busses and taxis, during the whole weekend.) the day was a sunday and everything was prepared in before. before the day we was told to follow the yellow lines on the road and after it was the white one that matters. the signs with arrows on was prepared with a 'left mode' label that was torn off that night to reveal the new right mode arrow. the year after iceland also changed. about cars: before the h-day (h as in "hoegertrafik". "hoeger" is swedish and stands for 'right') practically all cars already had their steering wheels on the left side. even the imported cars from uk had the wheel on 'the right side'. at last we have cars with the wheels on the right side. :-) more contries that uses the left side is: tanzania (i think) new zeeland how about south africa? btw. some sais that the left side is the right side because ivanhoe and other knights meet at the left when they fight in tournaments. :-) ...deleted lines... kent gabrin celsiustech systems ! my thinking is not as great as s-175 88 jaerfaella sweden ! oliver berendinus bumble /will try kega@celsiustech.se ! company sold again. former name was: nobeltech 
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<instance id="rec.autos101627">
<answer instance="rec.autos101627" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 and all of these cars are driven fairly hard. none of them are at the head of a line of cars going 30 mph....the first two spend a lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged...and the only reason the 84 doesn't is it has a 120 mph speedo... what i want to know is....have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in a 745 turbo wagon blowing you away on the road, or what? 740 turbo in uk was good for 124mph. useful for blowing away vw beetles, though i believe the beetle corners better. i can say without any doubt that i have never been blown away by any volvo, ever. i've been blocked into a few car parks though by shit-head volvo owners who 'only thought they'd be a few minutes'. this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car. not sure how long the small shit-box volvos last - too damn long. the worst car i ever drove was a hired 340. in power, handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the 50s, without the character. the 340 only ceased production a couple of years back. i've only been a passenger in the big volvos, but that was enough. i ought to go for a test drive because they offer some neat gifts. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101632">
<answer instance="rec.autos101632" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 as an additional data point, i have run castrol 20w50 exclusively in the following cars: 75 rabbit, 78 scirocco, 76 rabbit, 78 bus, 70 beetle, 76 bus, 86 jetta gli. i've never had an oil-related disclaimer: it gets mighty hot down here. finnegan@navo.navy.mil 
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<instance id="rec.autos101633">
<answer instance="rec.autos101633" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 cup holders (driving is an importantant enough undertaking) this is a good idea - so you can carry your (non-alcoholic) drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them. i agree. six hour long stretches behind the wheel really make me thirsty, especially for something with caffeine. i consider it a failing of my car that it has no cup holder nor anywhere to put a cup jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos101635">
<answer instance="rec.autos101635" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> q: what is ka band radar? where is it used? should a radar detector be |> able to handle it? |> a: ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us |> in so-called photo-radar installations. in these installations, a |> low-powered beam is aimed across the road at a 45 degree angle to the |> direction of traffic, and a picture is taken of vehicles which the |> radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit. |> tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle. because of the low |> power and the 45 degree angle, many people believe that a radar |> detector cannot give reasonable warning of a ka band radar unit, |> although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such |> capability anyway. the number of locales where photo-radar is in use |> is limited, and some question the legality of such units. best advice: |> learn what photo radar units look like, and keep track of where they |> are used (or else, don't speed.) photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all. speeding is a moving violation, committed by the operator, not the owner. the owner may be a rental agency, a dealer, a private party, or a government agency. as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely, the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does. the car may even have been driven without the owner's knowledge or consent. i can't believe a mailed ticket, where the driver is not identified, would stand up in court. this is obviously a lazy, cynical, boneheaded, fascist way to extort revenue, and has nothing to do with public safety. we had those f*****g photo-radar things here in sweden a while ago. there was a lot of fuzz about them, and a lot of sabotage too (a spray-can with touch-up paint can do a lot of good...). eventually they had to drop the idea as there were a lot of court-cases where the owner of the car could prove he didn't drive it at the time of speeding. i especially recall a case where it eventually proved to be a car-thief that had stolen a car and made false plates. he, ofcourse, chose a license number of a identical car, so the photo seemed correct... in conclosion: photo-radar sucks, every way you look at it! / markus 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos101636">
<answer instance="rec.autos101636" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 just found a great deal on a clifford delta car alarm, $450 installed. comes with glass break sensor, motion detector, and shock detector. does anyone have one of these alarms? are they any good? from the looks of it, its about the best on the market for the price. it's also on sale, so that's another reason to get it. i think i'll be saving almost $200. any opinions? eric lucas 
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<instance id="rec.autos101637">
<answer instance="rec.autos101637" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 any reason you are limited to the two mentioned? they aren't really at the same point along the suv spectrum - not to mention price range. how about the explorer, trooper, blazer, montero, and if the budget allows, the land cruiser? any advice on how to buy a land cruiser? my local toyota dealer says they get two a year, and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list. forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires. and if they are that rare, i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on land crusier is just simply nice with shit-load of power and room. fully stocked, it cost ~$40,000. i think it is worth the money. only problem is when you get into accident(it doesn't usually break down unless you forget to get a oil change for 30000 miles or something stupid like this), body parts and other parts are very hard to locate. parts are over priced also. one of my friend had accident in past snow storm and he is still waiting for front bumper and passenger side fender. well, if you test drive land cruiser, all other suv look like toys. one of magazine writer called it "land bruiser". if you have $40,000 to spare for suv, get land cruiser and forget lange rover. --sang 
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<instance id="rec.autos101638">
<answer instance="rec.autos101638" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 miles, a rare screw up by honda. both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars. the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr. the cr purchase would be the ford probe gt. john nielsen magnus consultant ______ ______ __ __ "to you baldrick, the renaissance was just /\ __ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \ something that happened to other people, \ \ \/\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \ wasn't it?" - the black adder \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ 
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<instance id="rec.autos101639">
<answer instance="rec.autos101639" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 here are "another" ten reasons why we should all love cr 10. car salesmen love their new car buying service 7. car salesmen/rec.auto readers turned into "expert" statistics critics 5. lucky owners of cr unreliable cars who say "mine never had a problem" 4. those same owners joining the sceptics a few months later 3. and later subscribing to cr and taking it soooo seriously 2. and later on buying a cr "idealized family sedan" and my number 1: 1. the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr "true believers". [ /tom haapanen -- tomh@metrics.com -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth. now pull ] [ up. that's how the corrado makes you feel." -- car, january '93 ] 
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<instance id="rec.autos101641">
<answer instance="rec.autos101641" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in your experience, how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas. while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day, how clogged do they get, and is $59 a good price (or can i do it myself by buying a can of ____ (what?) and doing ___ what? a "fuel injector cleaning" at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank, dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner, and sending you on your merry way $59 poorer. go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for $1.29. just because you dealer sez you need it, don't mean it's necessarily so. be suspicious. jim grey jwg@acd4.acd.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos101643">
<answer instance="rec.autos101643" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the kind of corporate raiding apparently undertaken by vw is shameful. agreed. however, the particular execs had been working with iggy for many years and had left gm europe to go to detroit. with their raison i was out of date. vw is stealing execs directly from opel, independent of lopez. shameful. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101648">
<answer instance="rec.autos101648" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 mercedes-benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport-utility vehicles in the us by 1997. they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al. and will reportedly sell for less than $30,000. did anyone see a picture? is it the g-wagon (gelaendewagen) currently there is a picture in the may 1993 edition of european car (although, it may not be on the shelf yet). some things that the article says: - prototype has front wheel drive (first front drive for mercedes since the beginning of wwii) - wheelbase 3.15m - 7 seater - they claim that the price will be about the same as a renault espace or chrysler voyager (dm 50,000) looking at the picture (slightly disguised) it looks like the ford aerostar, to me. available in europe (and in the us by grey-market) or is it an entirely new vehicle? any details would be appreciated. dick meyer applied research laboratory, penn state larry __/ _______/_ keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov / \ _____ __ _____ \------- === ----------- / ____/ / / /__ __/ \ / ___ / / ___ / / / / ____ | | / \/ /__ / | / /__ __/ /__ / \ / /___ \_______/ /_____/ /______/ ====oo - 1990 2.0 16v - ---------------- fahrvergnugen forever! -------------------- the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn't understand anyway! 
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<instance id="rec.autos101651">
<answer instance="rec.autos101651" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my friend, david gordon wants to sell his 1989 honda. some of the details of th e car are as follows: five speed a/c, am/fm/cassette stereo ps/pb rear window defroster excellent condition asking 6400.00 obo. please call him at (708) 257-0518. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101652">
<answer instance="rec.autos101652" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in your experience, how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas. while i a "fuel injector cleaning" at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank, dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner, and sending you on your merry way $59 poorer. go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for $1.29. this should not be the case if they are at all reputable. fuel injector cleaning is done properly with a can of injector cleaner solvent which is hooked up to the fuel system under high pressure. the car is actually run on the solvent during the cleaning process. the equipment to properly do this is pricey, and generally not something the average home mechanic has. the solvent itself is not very expensive ($5-$8) and you could probably make up a hose to fit your system and do it yourself, but i didn't tell you that... :-) not many in-tank cleaners are worth wasting your money on. there has been a discussion of these products on here from time to time, and chevron techron (not pro-gard with techron) is generally regarded as the best. it is, however, a bit more than $1.29 a bottle. imho, it will not substitute for proper injector cleaning if they are really crudded up. you'll have to decide if the $59 price is a better deal than spending your time and/or buying equipment to do it. scott keller +1 314 537 6317 the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell@bb1t.monsanto.com ka0wch packet: ka0wch@k0pfx.mo.usa.na 
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<instance id="rec.autos101654">
<answer instance="rec.autos101654" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my '66 ford has vent windows operated by a crank, just like a window (only it opened out, like a normal vent window). my '70 f100, my dad's '84 bronco, and pretty much every truck i've seen that's worth riding in has vent windows. does that mean that i'm not a young feller anymore? :-) james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center i don't understand the fascination with vent windows. they create a tremendous turbulence and noise that makes even a simple connversation impossible at speeds above 40mph. the current flow-throuh ventilation, if designed right, are far more superior. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101655">
<answer instance="rec.autos101655" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 not exactly dumb, but who remebers the tachometer on the 69 or 70 firebird bulging out of the _hood_ right in front of the driver. neat place but i love to know what the elemnts did to its internals after a few years. also, does the speedomete pointer on many us cars have to be 3 feet long?. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101657">
<answer instance="rec.autos101657" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 here are "another" ten reasons why we should all love cr or the spectacle of "macho real men" who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it. but that's the point. we _do_ read it, or at least we did. then we found that their recommendations were useless and uninformed. then we write lists. the cr flame war is so easy to start because they are so wrong and claim to be so right and so thorough. ok if you are so right, name a few good examples that were brought up. john nielsen magnus consultant ______ ______ __ __ "to you baldrick, the renaissance was just /\ __ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \ something that happened to other people, \ \ \/\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \ wasn't it?" - the black adder \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ 
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<instance id="rec.autos101658">
<answer instance="rec.autos101658" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 help! my car insurance has been cancelled for the second time in a row! i still haven't gotten in touch with my agent from aaa because "she's out for the week" but my mom said that i got a call saying that my insurance was going to be cancelled because of an accident ( not even a fender-bender) that was never declared or anything. besides the fact that i have no idea how they found out about this, the only other thing that could bug them is that i have 1 ticket but i told them about it and they said that it wasn't a problem. if i go to another insurance, i know i will end up paying more (b/c i already shopped around for this one) and i can't afford to pay for the insurance especially since i still haven't gotten the $3000 the two insuance companies are supposed to refund me. i just got a new saturn sl2 and can't afford the car payments and the insurance, but i bought the car having gotten a quote from state farm which they later went back on. please help me! what legal rights do i have? can i make state farm who originally gave me the quote give me that rate (they made a mistake after i signed all the papers, i did not give any false evidence)? how can i get my money back for the car if i can't pay for the insurance? i'm deperate!!! i just went through this mess in new jersey (i'm still waiting for a refund as well), namely, that the original company made a mistake and left me in the lurch. my recourse was through nj's insurance dept. office of consumer protection. you should have a similar office in your state. make use of it. good luck, chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - pending delivery agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101660">
<answer instance="rec.autos101660" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 "i read an article in the 3/25 chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the 3.5l engine for it's lh cars. can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they'll have to wait??" ordered mine december 30, got it nine weeks later. but the dealer said that *new* orders were being held up -- he didn't expect to see any more 3.5l-engine lhs for awhile. -=- andrew klossner (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com) 
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<instance id="rec.autos101661">
<answer instance="rec.autos101661" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 besides which, where would men put all their crap if their wives didn't carry purses? :-) my wife rarely carries a purse, so all of her crap ends up in my pockets! ron deblock rdb1@homxb.att.com (that's a number 1 in rdb1, not letter l) at&t bell labs somerset, nj usa 
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<instance id="rec.autos101666">
<answer instance="rec.autos101666" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> >> here are "another" ten reasons why we should all love cr |> >> 10. car salesmen love their new car buying service |> >> 2. and later on buying a cr "idealized family sedan" |> >and my number 1: |> >1. the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr "true believers". |> or the spectacle of "macho real men" who would never bother to read the |> magazine but are more than apt to criticize it. hey, i'm a "macho real man" and i do read it. so i can criticize it all i want, especially since i pay for the publication. (they accept no outside advertising, don't you know....) |> john nielsen magnus consultant ______ ______ __ __ |> "to you baldrick, the renaissance was just /\ __ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \ |> something that happened to other people, \ \ \/\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \ |> wasn't it?" - the black adder \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field & stream select your living room furniture. finnegan@navo.navy.mil no one should ever rely on just a magazine to determine what car they buy, i don't care what magazine. btw, i subscribe to three other auto rags, i just think cu is getting a bum rap by these macho men from hell who think real men should read . . . . statements like what you said above have no meaning. people keep on saying "cu is only good for dishwashing detergent" or as you said:"relying on consumer reports . . . . is like. . ." and that is all they say. if there were as critical of themsevles as they are of cu maybe there would be some real content. john nielsen magnus consultant ______ ______ __ __ "to you baldrick, the renaissance was just /\ __ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \ something that happened to other people, \ \ \/\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \ wasn't it?" - the black adder \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ 
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<instance id="rec.autos101668">
<answer instance="rec.autos101668" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am in search of a dependable automobile to purchase. below are its requirements: 5. v6 or above most of the cars you mentioned are below (smaller than) v6 engine. | name: antonio l. balsamo | |company: digital equipment corp. | | shrewsbury, mass. | | work #: (508) 841-2039 | | e-mail: balsamo@stargl.enet.dec.com | 
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<instance id="rec.autos101671">
<answer instance="rec.autos101671" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in your experience, how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas. while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day, how clogged do they get, and is $59 a good price (or can i do it myself by buying a can of ____ (what?) and doing ___ what? a "fuel injector cleaning" at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank, dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner, and sending you on your merry way $59 poorer. go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for $1.29. personally, i wouldn't use the $1.29 product from kmart. i knew about this previously, but this past weekend on pbs's motorweek pat goss (their resident tech type) discussed these products, and recommends not using them (i.e, the non-isopropyl alcohlo based injector cleaners). supposedly only the isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture from your fuel tank as they clean your injectors. and although the others (ethyl based) do clean injectors they also cause rubber components in the fuel system to deteriorate, and they don't mix well with water to help remove it from the fuel system. i use a product recommended by vw called 44k (by bg products, inc.). it cost more about $14.00, but it is supposed to do the job without the potential harmful side effects, and its results are supposed to last from 2k to 4k miles. i have also used chevron's techtrolene (sp?). i can't say that i have noticed any difference using either, since i only use these product as a preventative maintenance item. just because you dealer sez you need it, don't mean it's necessarily so. be suspicious. jim grey jwg@acd4.acd.com larry __/ _______/_ keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov / \ _____ __ _____ \------- === ----------- / ____/ / / /__ __/ \ / ___ / / ___ / / / / ____ | | / \/ /__ / | / /__ __/ /__ / \ / /___ \_______/ /_____/ /______/ ====oo - 1990 2.0 16v - ---------------- fahrvergnugen forever! -------------------- the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn't understand anyway! 
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<instance id="rec.autos101673">
<answer instance="rec.autos101673" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you're planning on making long drives, the 20w50 is probably fine (esp. in the summer) in your 10w40 car. but if you're making short drives, stick to the 10w40. several years ago gm was having trouble with the rings sticking on the 5.7 diesel. they traced a cause to the use of 10w-40 oil. they would not honor warranty work if 10w-40 was used (if my memory serves me). 5-30, 10-30 or 20 50 was ok'd though. mark b. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101677">
<answer instance="rec.autos101677" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ok, how about this to argue about. why does the sl2 have a much lower base price than the sc2??? it's over 1k cheaper(i forget the exact amount). doesn't it cost more to have the extra doors/windows/locks/motors etc. that are in the 4 door???? perhaps it is just a marketing deal....people want the 2door, so they will pay the extra 1.2k??? ok, here's what i understand: the sl/sl1/sl2/sw1/sw2 was meant to compete with the following cars: honda civic toyota tercel (sl,sl1) toyota corolla (sl1,sl2) nissan sentra mazda 323/protoge' subaru loyale/impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mistubishi mirage plymouth/dodge colt their core competition is the civic, corolla, and sentra. most of the other models are in the same class, but aren't the first cars you would think of. i threw in the escort/tracer because it has a good amount of japanese technology and has similar reliability stats. i didn't include domestic small cars such as the cavalier, sunbird, shadow, sundance, tempo, and topaz, since i think saturn is going after cars that have at least some degree of japanese the sc1/sc2 was meant to compete against the following cars: toyota paseo honda civic si/civic coupes/del sol si nissan nx1600/nx2000 mazda mx-3 isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort gt if you look at the prices of these cars, they're more expensive than they're 4-door counterparts. the is good reason for this. it is a more upscale and trend-driven market. even though many of these models are based on sedan platforms, their interior, etc. is good enough to warrant slightly higher prices. here are some of the platform derivations i can think of: tercel -> paseo sentra -> nx1600/nx2000 civic -> del sol 323 -> mx-3 (not sure on this one) stylus -> impulse/storm to illustrate, a tercel starts at around $8000, while the paseo starts at around $11,000. even a 4-door tercel will cost less than a 2-door paseo. now, you might be saying that the tercel doesn't offer the power that some 4-doors offer. what i mean is that there is no 4-dr tercel with a comparable powerplant as its sport coupe derivative. let's take another example: the isuzu stylus xs and impulse xs/storm gsi. both have the same powerplants (a 1.6l 140hp engine), but the smaller 2-dr coupes are generally more expensive. again, this is because the two-door sport coupe market is a more fashion-oriented and trend-setting segment. people are willing to pay more money for this type of car. in short, even though the sc1/sc2 may be smaller, hence "less" car, it's market orientation dictates a slightly higher price than its mechanically equivalent sedan (sl1/sl2) version. i hope this clears things up a bit...... mihir shah 
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<instance id="rec.autos101678">
<answer instance="rec.autos101678" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, dh3q+@andrew.cmu.edu ("daniel u. holbrook") says: i'm guessing, but i believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts. i am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time..... by the 1920s, there was a very active "good roads" movement, which had its origins actually in the 1890s during the bicycle craze, picked up steam in the teens (witness the linclon highway association, 1912 or so, and the us highway support act (real name: something different) in 1916 that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads. also, the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww 1 convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense. anyway, by the 20s there were plenty of good roads, at least around urban areas, and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside. this was the era, after all, of the first auto touring fad, the motel, the auto camp ground, etc. two good books on the subject spring to mind - warren belasco "america on the road" (title may not be exact - author is) and another called "the devil wagon in god's country" author i forget. also, any of john flink's or john bell rae's auto histories. i'm sorry, as i have never heard of any of this. guess they don't think it's important enough for a classroom, and i was going on what i've seen in pics.(some movies--real nice scource there, huh?) i just always recall thinking that good roads of asphalt didn't come around til the interstate hiway act, or whatever they called it(60's?), and that wood and cobblestone roads were fairly rare up through the depression, except in overpopulated places like england and us cities. obviously netwisdom says i am wrong. as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary, by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left. in the early days, cars had the wheel on the left, on the right, and even in the middle, as well as sometimes having a tiller instead of a wheel. this was standardized fairly early on, though i don't know why. i knew it was almost always done, but i knew of no reason that it might not be done the other way by desoto for their car. seems like they had some other deviations from the norm too, at times :-) dh3q@andrew.cmu.edu carnegie mellon university applied history "world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe, whether we can comprehend and prove it or not." oswald spengler thanx for corrrecting me, and again, i aplogize for harebraned post. 
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<instance id="rec.autos101679">
<answer instance="rec.autos101679" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 there's only one car that really fits your needs. it's spelled: 5.0 liter mustang sports car, butm my mothers '88 gt was considered a sports car. i still can't quite figure that out, since when do plastic add-ons make a car a sports car? we're talking about insurance agents from bumf**k illinois (st.farm is hq'ed in bloomington). what the hell do they know about cars... both are sports cars... :-) chintan amin the university of illinois/urbana champaign mail: llama@uiuc.edu *"because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral* ***************they called him insane..." peart "cinderella man"************* 
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<instance id="rec.autos101680">
<answer instance="rec.autos101680" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've got an 86 plymouth colt that i'd like to do a front-end alignment on. is it possible to do without all of the fancy schmancy gadgets the pros have? how? no.no.no.no. if you do so, you are putting the lives of others on the road at consider- able risk. why do you think mechanics are ase certified?? anyway you put it, you need those *fancy scmancy* gadgets... awww, right, you want all the home mechanics lined up against a wall and shot eh? bull pucky you chicken! read the service manual and get your head out of the sand! certainly there are tools for the job that are cheaper than an alignment rack, that do the job as competently (albeit, not as swiftly), if not more accurate, due to the natural pride an owner/mechanic places on his work. you can do an `acceptable' job of aligning a car using simple tools and some imaginative work that would *never* have the effect of endangering anyones life. the worst that happens is that your tires wear oddly (well, you could have the wheels aiming totally pigeon toed and not be able to steer the car, raise your hands those that think their vision is so poor that they would screw up this badly!) i bet you are one of those people that feels that honing a cylinder wall with sand paper will kill millions of people. it aint magic. go take the certification course, and look at the people that have never learned to add in their whole life that are taking the certification! btw, i am disgusted at the colt (and some of the other chrysler offerings) because they go out of alignment if you sneaze at them. my '84 chrysler laser (similar to the daytona, a reskinned colt) needed a realignment every 3 months ... bolt a good grade 12' 2x4 to each wheel, using a carefully welded spacer jig. measure toe in, adjust to manufacturer specs. camber a bit more difficult to adjust and measure ... i used a micrometer to measure the space between the rim and a funky bent up pipe that could be placed on upper and lower portions of the rim on the inside of wheel (hard to explain). this same tool could be used instead of the 2x4s. i had made these tools up *right* after the last alignment done professionally so i had a reference that the original poster might not ... ciao -- mark 
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<instance id="rec.autos101681">
<answer instance="rec.autos101681" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 seningen@maserati.ross.com (mike seningen) 85 mph speedos -- esp. the electronic ones. the digital dash of the 87 cougars with the large analog clock in the middle of the dash -- everything was digital except the stinking clock? the funny thing about the digital dash (87 t-bird) with the 85mph speedo limit was that if you pressed the button to convert to kilometers it would read all the way up to 187kph. at this point the stock anemic 302 would get short of breath. this of course was equivalent to about 116mph (hehe).i bet i really coulda confused this thing if i'd toyed with the engine and rolled the stupid thing (the digits were limited to 199). i've gotta agree with ya on the analog clock w/digital dash though. my girlfriend had a '85 turbocoupe with a digital clock and analog gauges/radio. go figure... usenet@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu (usenet administrator) i love the keyless entry on my t-bird; it's great for those times that i had to stop to put air in my tires. i could get out and lock the door with the engine running while i ran around to air up the tire. it also i had a great feature on my t-bird.... i could pull the key out and leave the ignition on. this scared the hell out of me the first time it happened but i kinda grew to like it. musta been a bad key copy or mark novakovic "there is no god up in the sky tonight __ _ no sign of heaven anywhere in sight" -nin /_/\/\ "jesus loves ya. blow me." _ _ __ _ _ \_\ / -- in tribute to my former / \/ \ /||\ / \|\ / \\ / /_/ \ area supervisor jim bonneau \ / / || \__/ | \/ \\ / \_\/\ \ and the infamous bonneau math \\ /__||_/ \ |_/\ / \ / / \_\/ (demoted not departed) \_/ \_// || \__ \_/| \ \_/ \/ \/ ministry 
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<instance id="rec.autos102735">
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 do you think i can use a electric drill( change to a suitable bit ) to turn it out? if i can succeed, can i re-tighten it not too tight, is it safe without oil leak? tighten the bolt to the specified torque in your service manual. that way it won't leak, strip, break, etc. (hopefully :-) ) thank you very much in advance------ winson you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt. i have one on both of my cars. there have been no leaks in 210,000 miles (combined miles on both cars). ron deblock rdb1@homxb.att.com (that's a number 1 in rdb1, not letter l) at&t bell labs somerset, nj usa 
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<instance id="rec.autos102738">
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 a while back i asked for help in defending a traffic ticket i received. in short: the ticket was for not stopping at a stop sign. given the conditions i could not stop in time and decided instead of sliding right through the intersection, i would complete my right-turn and avoid a possible accident. a police cruiser happened to be approaching the intersection from my left and gave me the ticket. the officer said "the only reason that you even slowed down in the first place was that you saw me approaching, otherwise you would have bombed right through" i would like to thank all those who responded favorably to my request for help. to all of those who told me to bite the bullet and pay the fine: phghghghgh.. the judge sided with me and decided that in this case "not stopping" was the safest thing to do and found me not guilty. the officer's statement and my account of the conditions at the time (very slippery, backed by newpaper weather conditions) were the factors what made the judge decide on his verdict. moral: if you have never been to court before and you think you have a case, go for it. it is a very interesting process, and it is there for your benefit. exercise your rights. name : trevor paquette | landmark/ita | _\___ fahrvergnuegen email: tpaquette@ita.lgc.com | calgary, alberta, canada | / \____ visitor from cyberspace | (403) 269-4669 |/ g60 \ renegade of virtual reality | #include <disclaimer.h> |\-o------o--/ 
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 |> > while taking an extended easter vacation, i was going north on i-45 |> > somewhere between centerville, tx and dallas, tx and i came upon a |> > train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over |> > the northbound lanes. there appeared to be movement within the cab |> > and out of curiosity i slowed to 85 to get a better look. just as i |> > passed from underneath the trestle, my radar detector went into full |> > alert - all lights lit and all chirps, beeps, and buzzes going strong. |> > i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized. |> some, but not all, locomotives have doppler speedometers. the radar head is |> mounted looking down at the ground (to minimize intereference sent and |> received) but looking tangentally at a wheel. these are low power units |> and typically won't trigger radar detectors unless an unusual situation |> such as yours arises. |> john |> john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? |> performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? |> marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to |> jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag |> need usenet public access in atlanta? write me for info on dixie.com. this makes sense(radar pointed down), because almost every train i pass head-on that triggers my radar detector does so more just after i have passed the front of the engine. i get a little of the reflections as i am approaching and the instant i get to the side of the first engine the detector receives a fairly strong signal for a short time. it happens with just about every train i see. 
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 i consulted with someone working on an electronic odometer. the design was to use a microprocessor based system to write a somewhat ofuscated pattern into an eeprom. the idea was to make the circuit difficult to program arbitrary values into the eeprom. the secondary purpose, acutally the primary purpose from the standpoint of practicality, was to distributed the writes so as to avoid exceeing the maximum number of writes fof the eeprom being used. the microprocessor also ignored pulses coming from the hall effect at a rate any higher than 110 mph so as to make spoofing the reading by bench pulsing at least somewhat undesirable. this was for an automobile that was not expected to ever exceed 110 mph in operation. the case, of course, might not be the same for your 1993 rx-7! the ecm modules of some cars do indeed store info about conditions under which cars have been operated. since steering angle and velocity data, etc is available it would not be difficult to collect all sorts of interesting demographic information about the drivers' use of the car. i am not aware of any manufacturer currently trying to enforce warranty restrictions based on reading out use data from the ecm. while it could be a potential invasion of your privacy for manufacturers to have access to data about your driving style, it could also provide valuable information from actual field use conditions to help engineer more appropriate cars. i personally wouldn't mind the dealer collecting my driving demographics as long as it is done in an anonymous fashion. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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 i'm a little new to this newsgroup, but i would like to tap some of the knowledge and expertise available here. the subject: after-market cruise controls the background: i recently broke my ankle in a road-bicycling accident (4 places, five screws, yuk! :-( ). in two weeks i will be returning to texas (my home) from my school (byu) in provo, utah. as you can imagine, trying to drive nearly 1300 miles with a broken right ankle isn't just the epitome of a good time. my car does not have a cruise control, so i would have to do all the pedalling (ha ha) with my messed-up ankle. my question: what is the general opinion of after-market cruise control units? i realize that a cheap cc (cruise control) from, say, pep boys, isn't going to be as good as a factory or professionally installed unit (if there is such a thing). and i uderstand that i probably can't expect much in the way of accuracy, looks and that sort of thing; but anything's gotta be better than trying to drive with a hosed ankle. i have a 1984 jeep cherokee, 4 speed, standard, 4*4, 2.5l engine with kettering(sp?) ignition (y'know, distributor cap, rotor, that set-up--not electronic. maybe you could've guessed it being an '84, but i'm just trying to give information as completly as i can). i found a cc unit for 80 bucks. it seems to use the vehicles vacuum system instead of an electric servor/motor. is this good or bad? if i did buy this cc, which vacuum hose should i tap? it has two speed sensors: one magnetic, and one that gets a signal from the negative side of the distributor, kinda like a tach pick-up, or so i understand. i can use either one. which is best? the manual says (i read it in the store today) that the magnetic/axle set-up is more accurate, but harder to install. is there really a big difference? it has a sensor for the brake pedal, just like other ccs, but does not have a sensor for the clutch pedal. so if i wasn't paying real close attention i might push the clutch in while the cruise is trying to get the speed up. which would wind the engine up kinda high until i got my wits about me and turned the thing off. i'm pretty coordinated, so this doesn't bother me, if it were for my girlfriends car, *then* it would bother me, but i'm ok with it. the installation also calls for an attachment to a steady-on brake signal and a switched-on brake signal. i think i can get a switched brake signal from the correct side of the brake light blade fuse. am i right? but i'm not sure where to get the steady-on brake signal, or, for that matter, what exactly it is? any ideas as to what the manufaturer wants and where to get i think i can figure the other things out. like how to hook-up the negative side tach-type sensing gizmo and the cabin control unit, and the ground and all that miscellaneous business. but i need a little help with: 1. is it worth the money and safety risk (if any) for such a 2. is there any particularly good after-market cc? 3. are "professionally" installed ccs signifacantly better and worth the cabbage? 4. if the unit i saw (sorry, no manufacturer or model number, just that it is at pep boy and its $80) is sufficient for my simple needs, how do i get the thing installed properly (specifically, the questions above)? my father and i built a "veep" (volkswagen powered jeep cj-2a) when i was in high school, so i consider myself fairly good with tools, electronics, and cars. so the installation doesn't scare me. i just want to be certain that i get the thing installed correctly as my cherokee is just a wee bit more complicated than my veep. :-) i appreciate your time in reading my post, and i would appreciate any expertise or opinion anybody has on the subject. if you would like to share some of your wisdom, please email as i don't get over this group very often (but i check my mail all the time). again, thanks for any help anyone may have. mike wieda mikew@canc.byu.edu 
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 in a previous article, sdexter@shl.com (scott dexter) says: i like the amigo; i would like some feedback... any and all feedback appreciated- yet another jeep wannabe designed for yuppies who will never take it off road but want to look "outdoorsey". dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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 in a previous article, edf003@marshall.wvnet.edu () says: hi, i'm interested in getting the list for license plate numbers. if anyone has a listing i'd appreciate getting a copy of it. thanks! you must be _incredibly_ bored. have you considered reading the phone book? dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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 i just started reading this thread today, so forgive me if it has already been mentioned. but...what was the deal with renault's putting the horn on the left-hand turn-signal stalk? it was a button on the end, where the washer button would be on the wiper/washer stalk. could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel, or what? well, before we start calling the engineering folks in france a bunch of braindeads for this... my 1979 mercury capri had this lovely feature. this was not the earlier german variant but the newer one that was identical to the mustang of current fame. i can't tell you how many times this feature pissed me off. come to think of it my brothers zepher had this as well. robert dilmore dilmore@cray.com going back to an earlier thread, imagine having to turn left, shift gears, flash a stray driver in the intersection with your left-hand high beam on the headlight stalk, and, after the driver wouldn't move, having to honk the horn on the left-hand stalk! gives me the heebie-jeebies. --barak 
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 while taking an extended easter vacation, i was going north on i-45 somewhere between centerville, tx and dallas, tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes. there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to 85 to get a better look. just as i passed from underneath the trestle, my radar detector went into full alert - all lights lit and all chirps, beeps, and buzzes going strong. i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized. could this have been caused by the train's radio or what? i don't know about trains, but i've saw a sign on the back of a greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off. it doesn't explain why, but it does set off my radar detector. ***** * * from the e-net desk of: rick colombo cd/dcd/dsg * * * ** * fermi nat'l acc'l lab 708-840-8225 fermilab * * * *** * * * p.o. box 500 ms 369 feynman computer center ***** * * * ** batavia, ill. usa 60510 colombo@fnal.fnal.gov * * ***** * of course i speak for: fermilab, congress and the president... not!!! 
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 for sale - mazda 323 1986 mazda 323 white exterior, grey interior. 75,000 miles interior in very good condition. exterior in good condition pioneer dx 680 car stereo. - cd player - 18 fm presets, 6 am - removable faceplate - seperate component speakers professionally mounted in the doors. the car has been well maintained. i wax it often and keep the interior clean. its a good running car with a solid body (no rust thru, tiny spots of surface rust. when i see a spot i touch it up.) the stereo makes the car. i have had no mechanical problems with it. i'm looking for $900.00 firm. the car has an average wholesale value of about $900.00 without the stereo. the stereo cost me $500.00 last july. if you are interested, call or email me at: carl mercer cm@cci.com (716) 654-2652 (716) 359-0895 evening 
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 archive-name: rec-autos/part1 [most recent changes, 15 march 1993: addition of alt.autos.karting -- rpw] === welcome to rec.autos.* === this article is sent out automatically each month, and contains a general description of the purpose of each of the automotive newsgroups, and some suggested guidelines for discussions. the keywords `monthly posting' will always appear to make killing this article easy for users of newsreaders with kill facilities. this article is posted to all autos groups, but followups are directed only to rec.autos. if you don't understand what this means, ask your system administrator for help, or at least for copies of the newuser documentation. failing that, please subscribe to the newsgroup news.announce.newusers and read the documentation provided there. introduction to the rec.autos newsgroup hierarchy: rec.autos.tech is intended for technical discussions of automobiles, their design, construction, diagnosis, and service. other discussions are largely inappropriate, especially for sale ads. rec.autos.sport is intended for discussion of legal, organized competition involving automobiles. technical discussions are appropriate insofar as they apply to competition vehicles. discussion from either of two viewpoints, spectator and participant, is encouraged. arguments about sports cars are largely inappropriate, as are most other discussions. for sale ads are inappropriate unless they are for competition vehicles and/or equipment. discussions of illegal events are marginal; one should probably avoid advocating breaking the law. (remember, the fbi reads usenet!) rec.autos.driving is intended for discussions related to the driving of automobiles. also, if you must discuss 55 vs. 65, or radar detectors, or <insert your pet driving peeve> boneheads, do it here. rec.autos.vw is intended for discussion of issues related to the use and ownership of automobiles manufactured by volkswagen (this includes vws, audis, seats, etc.) it was created on the grounds that the info-vw mailing list was very successful. it should not be presumed from the existence of this group that it is appropriate to create many groups to cover many different marques; groups specific to individual marques should only be created on demonstration of sufficient interest, via some avenue such as a mailing list. rec.audio.car is not properly part of the rec.autos.* hierarchy. it is, however, the correct place for discussion of automotive audio equipment, and so is mentioned here. rec.autos.antique is intended for the discussion of older cars (usually more than 25 years old, although this is not a hard-and-fast rule.) alt.hotrod is not part of the hierarchy, but also of potential interest to the rec.autos reader. it is gatewayed to the moderated hotrod mailing list, and is for serious discussion of modifying and developing performance vehicles. alt.autos.rod-n-custom also not part of the `official' hierarchy; devoted to that peculiar american hobby of customizing older cars. alt.autos.karting for the discussion of the popular motorsport and hobby, karting. rec.autos is intended to capture discussion on all other automotive topics. crossposting: crossposting occurs when more than one newsgroup name is included on the newsgroups: line in the article header; such articles will appear in all of the newsgroups listed. crossposting is one of the most misunderstood and misused facilities on usenet. you should only post to a group because you feel an article is appropriate; you should never crosspost just to reach a particular audience. this distinction is subtle, but important. radar detector articles, for example, are more-or-less appropriate in rec.autos. they are almost never appropriate in sci.electronics or rec.ham-radio, and the fact that you might want to reach the audience in sci.electronics or rec.ham-radio is not adequate justification for posting to either group. crossposting between any or all of the rec.autos.* groups is usually inappropriate; if you find yourself doing so, consider whether or not it is truly advisable, before sending your article. consider setting followup-to: to point to only one newsgroup if you feel you must crosspost. crossposting between rec.autos.* and misc.consumers is chancy at best; in particular flame wars over the speed limit in the us and/or the use of radar detectors should never be crossposted between any of these groups. most readers of sci.electronics and rec.radio.* couldn't care less about the police radar and radar detector arguments that go on endlessly in rec.autos. it is an excellent idea to check the newsgroups: and followup-to: lines of articles before posting a followup. in particular, be wary of posting to misc.test, rec.arts.startrek.*, or talk.bizarre, or any combination of these three. the life you save may be your own. distribution: there is a field in the header of any news article which allows you to (partially) control where the article goes; it is called the distribution field. it may be very useful for many reasons; it should also serve as a reminder that news is a very large and widespread system. the distribution of rec.autos.* is fairly extensive. as of this writing, the automotive newsgroups are known to reach most of europe, australia, new zealand, and some locations in japan. with this in mind, i offer the following hints about use of the distribution: field in your article headers, and on article content. 1) please take care not to send for-sale ads about clapped out ford mavericks in new jersey to france or california; i doubt that anyone in either place will care, except for my girlfriend, who for some strange reason likes mavericks (but only 4-door mavericks, at that.) 2) when posting technical questions, please include the market for which your car was manufactured. for example, there are a number of differences between a european-market ford escort and a us-market escort. likewise, all 1750cc and early 2000cc alfa romeos reached the us with spica fuel injection; european market cars usually got carbs (often webers). these differences can be important to your readers; make your situation clear. failure to do so can lead to pointless flame wars and a significant spread of misinformation. 3) be careful about your capacities and specifications when posting; in the us we get a mix of metric and english system values, whereas europe is almost entirely on the metric system. a future edition of this monthly posting will contain a list of commonly-used abbreviations that may not be known in some places that rec.autos reaches; this cuts both ways so let us not be parochial about it. 4) use the distribution: field to limit where your article goes, when possible. within north america, the values na (north america), can (canada), and usa may be used. in addition, the two-letter state abbreviations of the us are supported in some cases; e.g. if i wanted to send an article only to new york and new jersey, i could put "ny,nj" in a distribution field. note that multiple, comma-separated values are legal. these distribution fields vary widely, however, so you should check with your local sysadmin to find out what is likely to be supported in your area. the dangers of overgeneralization: to amplify a warning from the distribution section of this article: be wary of making foolish assumptions about all cars, tires, etc. what is true for a 1973 buick with a 455cid engine may be quite utterly wrong for a 1976 honda with a 1200cc engine. headlight laws in sweden are decidedly different from those in idaho. the need for adequate specification: when you ask a question, please give a reasonable amount of information; e.g., if you have a question about your honda, please specify year, model, engine size, etc. otherwise, most answers to your question may be quite useless. concerning lemons: at one time or another, every auto manufacturer has manufactured a lemon or two; even honda admits to this. please don't waste everyone's time by announcing to the world that your `brand x' automobile is terrible, so all `brand x' automobiles are terrible, so no one should ever buy a car from the `brand x' company. such articles are worse than useless, because they cause substantial wasted bandwidth while carrying little or no useful concerning flames: as much as we might wish it, a flame-free newsgroup is something that most likely will never occur. here are some guidelines for flames and how to deal with them (a list of flame-prone topics follows in the next section of this posting): if you post something truly obnoxious and inflammatory, don't imagine for a minute that including the words `no flames' will work. it won't, and you'll get exactly what you deserve. if you're going to flame, you're more likely to get away with it if you can cite a fact or maybe a well-known reference. no one is likely to believe bald, unsupported assertions. be careful about who you choose to insult. consider not insulting anyone. asking the question: it is a bad idea to post a question and end it with a phrase like `please send email, i don't read this group'. it is a much better idea to end the question with `please send email, if there is sufficient interest i'll summarize the results in a later posting. i may miss posted responses to this request'. answering the question: if someone wants to hop up their yugo, don't tell them to get a mustang. either be silent, or give them useful advice. if someone wants advice on defending a speeding ticket, don't tell them to obey the law next time -- it's offensive, presumes guilt which is not proven, and doesn't directly address the original question. in general, don't post in order to see your words in print, and don't post in order to enjoy feeling smug and self-righteous. stale and/or inflammatory topics: certain topics are considered stale by `old timers'; while discussion of them is certainly ok, and new, factual information is welcome, ravings about them are extremely tiresome, and may get the person who posts them ignored altogether. some topics are naturally inflammatory; it is difficult if not impossible to have meaningful discussion of them. some of these topics include the following: 1) the 55mph speed limit in the us: pro and con 2) discussions about the morality and legality of the sale and usage of radar detectors. 3) discussions over which radar detector is best. 4) discussions over what is a sports car (this is one reason why rec.autos.sport is not a `sports car' group -- everyone would argue about what constitutes a `sports car'.) 5) disputes over whether or not us federal law protects the driver's right to own and operate a radar detector 6) `buy american' discussions 7) `clever' bumper stickers and personalized license plates 8) <insert nationality here> cars are terrible 9) what kind of car did maxwell smart drive? [when i have a complete, accurate answer it will be added to the commonly-asked questions article which is also posted monthly. until then, please don't waste bandwidth on this topic. -- rpw] please direct comments and suggestions about this article to: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com richard welty 518-393-7228 welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com ``nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis'' -- carroll smith 
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 archive-name: rec-autos/part5 [this article is one of a pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions; the other article contains questions more geared to the automotive enthusiast, and so is not crossposted to misc.consumers. -- rpw] [changes as of 14 april 1993: revised brake fluid section, as non-silicone dot-5 fluids are now apparently available -- rpw] commonly asked automotive questions tire questions: q: what do the funny numbers on the sides of my tires mean? a: typically, you will see something like 195/60hr14. the 195 is the overall width of the tire in millimeters, the tread is usually narrower. the 60 is the `aspect ratio'; it indicates the height of the sidewall of the tire relative to the overall width. our example tire has a sidewall height of 0.60 * 195 ~= 117 mm. the 14 is the wheel diameter in inches; there are also some special tires called `trx' tires which have three digit metric wheel diameter designations, like 390, which is in millimeters. the r means radial, and the h is a speed rating indicating the highest speed at which the tire, when properly inflated and carrying an appropriate load, may safely operate. common speed ratings are s (112mph), t (118mph), h (130mph), and v (up to 150mph.) recent changes to the method for specifying tire sizes move the speed rating to a different part of the designation; you may therefore find designations like 195/60r14 85h; the 85 indicates the per-tire load associated with the speed rating -- exceeding this load in continuous operation at the rated speed is dangerous practice. what follows is a table showing a number of `load indices' and corresponding maximum per-tire loads: load index 50 51 88 89 112 113 145 149 157 max load (kg) 190 195 560 580 1120 1150 2900 3250 4125 note that the usual mass vs. weight confusion occurs in this table. in some cases, the letters p or lt may be found in front of a tire size; the lt designation indicates light truck, and the p designation indicates passenger car. if no letter is given, then the application of the tire is passenger car usage. as far as i know, these letters only appear in the us market. the lt designation is prinicipally of interest to owners of light trucks and other utility vehicles. for the owner of a passenger vehicle, there is no meaningful difference between a tire with a p designation and one with no designation at if the aspect ratio is omitted, it is probably 80, but may be 78. tires with an ms (mud/snow) designation may have their speed rating reduced by 20 km/h (about 12mph.) there is an additional set of ratings on tires for temperature, traction, and treadwear. temperature and traction are graded a, b, and c (with a the best and c the worst); treadwear is a numeric rating. these values are of limited value, as they are assigned somewhat arbitrarily by tire manufacturers and are thus not useful in comparing different brands of tires. q: my car has tires with a funny size designation: 185/65hr390; can i put normal tires on the car? a: your tires are called trx tires; they were devised by michelin. because of a somewhat different bead design, they are incompatible with normal tires; michelin used a different diameter wheel for them so that they could not be mounted on the wrong type wheel (and so that more conventional tires could not be mounted on trx type wheels.) you will need to aquire different wheels to put a normal tire on your car; it is barely possible to fit normal tires on trx wheels, and horribly dangerous to do so (the tires may simply peel off the rims in a corner, or possibly blow out at high speed.) trx type tires are becoming hard to find; in addition to michelin, avon makes suitable tires. goodyear has apparently discontinued their line of trx tires. q: can i rotate radials from side to side, or rotate them only on one side of my car? a: car and tire manufacturers have differing views on this subject; many say that swapping radials between the left and right hand sides of a car is now ok (this group includes michelin and goodyear); others (for example, pirelli and nokia) will void warranties if such swapping is done. the best advice is to read your tire manual carefully before rotating your tires, and stick to the manufacturer's recommendations. q: how many snow tires should i buy, and if i buy 2, which end of the car should i put them on? a: in short, 4, and both ends. to explain, many drivers in areas that don't get excessive snow or who don't drive agressively (or at all) in snow conditions get away with only two snows on the drive wheels, but there are circumstances where this can be dangerous practice. with a rear wheel drive car, you can choose between being able to start the car going (a function of the rear axle) or stopping and turning the car (a function of the front axle.) in a front wheel drive car, you start, stop, and turn with the front end. the primary risk of putting the snow tires on the front only is that if you have to put on the brakes while going downhill, you run a serious risk of going downhill backwards. radar detectors and speed limits: q: why aren't there any comments on radar detectors and speed limits in this q&a posting? a: because questions about detectors and speed limits crossposted between misc.consumers and rec.autos.* always start long, tedious, and pointless flame wars. if you want to talk about either of these topics, please subscribe to rec.autos or alt.flame and keep it there. safety equipment: q: do airbags really work? a: preliminary statistics suggest the following: airbags work much better than no belts; good 3 point belts alone work much better than airbags alone, and airbags + 3 point belts work slightly better than 3 point belts alone. the con to airbags is that some designs tend to burn the driver's hands when venting the byproducts of the explosion that occurs inside the bag, and that some designs (but not all) may knock the driver's hands from the wheel, making retention of control of the vehicle after the bag deflates more difficult. brake questions: q: do i always need to get the rotors on my disk brakes turned? midas always wants to do this. a: no. there are specific conditions that mandate turning or replacing rotors; some shops try and make a little extra money by replacing rotors more often than is strictly necessary. if the rotors are not warped warped, and only lightly grooved, then there is no need to replace or to turn them. note also that some rotors (the rotors on many hondas are a good example) are so narrow to begin with that it is not practical to turn them; they must be replaced when they become too thin, warped, or badly grooved. q: they tell me i should downshift when braking to slow my car down. is this really a good idea? a: it used to be a very good idea, back in the days of mediocre, fade prone drum brakes. in modern disc brake equipped cars, use of downshifting to slow the car is not really necessary, except in cases of long, steep downhill runs. otherwise, modern disc brakes are more than adequate to stop a passenger car in all circumstances, and they are much cheaper to repair than clutch linings. on the other hand, many standard driver's license tests in the usa still specify that the driver being tested downshift under braking; i suggest that before taking a us driver's test, you either 1) learn to do this smoothly (which takes some time and practice) or 2) borrow a car with an automatic to take the test. q: how often should i replace my brake fluid? a: probably more often than you do. traditional brake fluids tend to absorb water; this water can corrode internal parts of the brake system and also lower the boiling point of the fluid. dot-3 type are older fluids; dot-4 and dot-5 are newer specifications. the principal differences are in wet and dry boiling points; the dry boiling point is important in fresh brake fluid, but the wet boiling point is important in older brake fluid. dot-3 fluids have the lowest wet and dry boiling point _requirements_; dot-4 fluids have better boiling point requirements; and dot-5 fluids have the best boiling point requirements (but dot-5 fluids are not clearly superior; see the next q&a for more details.) while the requirements imply that dot-4 fluids are better than dot-3 fluids, there may be specific cases where a dot-3 fluid is preferable, but these are mostly competition applications. otherwise, dot-4 type fluids offer _much_ improved brake pedal feel. replacement once a year is recommended for dot-4 fluids, although agressive drivers may profit by changing out fluid more frequently, or at least bleeding a modest amount of fluid out of the brake calipers fairly regularly. q: what about dot-5 brake fluids? a: this breaks down in to two parts. the dot-5 specification looks excellent for performance, but the first dot-5 fluids were silicone based. silicone fluids are a tricky proposition. unlike dot-3 and dot-4 fluids, they do not absorb water at all. while this may sound like a feature, the problem is that any water present pools up in such systems, interfering with braking performance and corroding any metals at the spot where the pooling is occuring. the water will tend to migrate downwards in the braking system to the brake calipers, where most of the corrosion occurs. because of this phenomenon, it is essential when converting to silicone to empty the entire brake system and flush it throughly beforehand; some even recommend replacing all rubber parts in the brake system when converting to silicone fluids. two other issues that come up with silicone fluids: 1) they are difficult to pour cleanly (that is, without air bubbles), which interferes with getting a good brake pedal feel, and 2) while they generally have much higher boiling points than dot-4 fluids, they do have high temperature failure modes which are indistinguishable in effect from boiling dot-4 fluids. silicone fluids may make sense in some street car applications, but they are certainly not recommended for high performance driving applications, and the economics are questionable for street use. i have recently become aware of new fluids that meet the dot-5 standard that do not contain silicones; these fluids appear to be reasonably compatible with the older dot-3 and dot-4 fluids, but i have little information at this time. q: abs is available on some of the cars i'm looking at, but it costs more. is it worth it? a: this does not have a cut and dried answer; therefore, this answer will be quite long in order to cover the pros and cons. the short answer is that abs costs more, both initially, and to maintain, will generally work better for the `average driver' (that is to say, a driver who does not have extensive experience in high performance driving techniques), and may require the `unlearning' of some obsolete braking techniques like pump braking which should be unlearned in any case. now for the long answer. abs works by monitering the wheels of the car, looking for signs of locked brakes. it may or may not be able be able to distinguish between the different wheels (there are several systems on the market.) it cannot detect impending lockup (which is what you would really want in an ideal world), but only the existence of lockup. the sensors used vary; some of the less well designed sensors are sensitive to tire size, and to brake pad material, and may cease to function properly if the owner deviates from original equipment or oe-equivalent components. when the sensors detect lockup, the abs system responds by unlocking the brakes (either individually, or all at once, depending on the system.) if the driver keeps their foot firmly planted, the abs will end up cycling between the locked and unlocked states (if a sensor existed that could detect _impending lockup_, then we could sit right at that point, which is where maximum braking effect is achieved.) this pulsing can often be felt in the brake pedal, as the system cycles. the percentage of the time that the brakes are truly engaged is called the `duty cycle'; typically in an abs system this is about 40% on dry pavement, a trained driver can beat this duty cycle quite reliably using a technique called threshold braking; on wet pavement, braking is so chancy that abs will outperform threshold braking nearly every time. unfortunately, on mud and on snow, often maximum braking effect can be acheived with the brakes locked; only audi, of the manufacturers producing abs-equipped cars, has seen fit to provide a disable switch for the abs system for this a particularly important feature of abs is that it preserves steering control. this is the case simply because, if you are braking near the limit and turn the wheel, the abs will release the brakes if it sees steering-triggered lockup, and back off on the percentage of the time that the brakes are applied. braking distances will lengthen accordingly. an important caution: abs cannot exceed the maximum theoretical braking force in any given situation; if you start sliding on glare ice, don't expect an abs system to help you out very much. the coefficient of friction is not changed by the presence of an abs system in your car. as far as maintenence goes, in addition to the potential restrictions i've listed above, you have to worry about the following: 1) parts costs are much higher; the oe master cylinder for my obscure european sedan lists for $185, but the oe master cylinder for the abs-equipped version of the same car lists for over $1000. most manufacturers explicitly forbid use of dot-5 (silicone) brake fluids in abs-equipped vehicles. because of the potential cost of replacement of corroded brake system components, regular (i suggest annual) replacement of brake fluid becomes very important. q: what about this threshold braking business? a: [normally, i'd not put this in the consumers q&a, but recent publicity about a number of accidents involving police drivers in abs-equipped chevy caprices suggests that this section is needed here -- rpw] threshold braking is a technique practiced by all serious high performance drivers; if made a habit, it replaces the `stab the pedal and lock 'em up' panic habit entirely, and is much to be prefered. basically, the premise is that tires generate maximum braking force when they have just started to slide, but just before the wheels lock up entirely. drivers who threshold brake learn to feel what this `threshold' feels like, and learn to search for it and hit it on the application of the brake pedal. in many cars, you can feel that you are near the threshold when the pedal starts to firm up as you depress it. in any case, if you can't hear the tires whine just a bit, you're not very near the threshold. in a car with abs, often there is a twinge in the pedal just before the system starts cycling; if the driver backs off on the pedal just a tad when the twinge is felt, then they are very close to the threshold and they'll probably achieve better stopping distances than if they just punched it and let the abs take over. recently, there has been a rash of publicity over a number of accidents, and one death, involving police cars equipped with abs systems. the police departments in question quickly blamed the new abs systems, but according to autoweek magazine, it now seems clear that the problem was a lack of training; none of the involved officers had any recent performance driving training. there is reason to believe that the drivers reacted to the pulsing brake pedal by `pump braking', an old and discredited technique of stabbing and releasing the brake pedal, the goal being to try and get brakes back with a failing hydraulic system. if you think about it for a minute, you'll realize that pump braking must cut the effective operation of a working brake system by at least 1/2, so if you cut the 40% duty cycle of an abs system by that much, you are giving up most of your brakes for the wrong reason. threshold braking has the advantage in that it is an effective and useful technique regardless of whether your car has abs; if you do fear a failed hydraulic system, then one or two stabs at the pedal will be sufficient. gas questions: q: does high octane gasoline help? a: maybe, maybe not. some cars have knock sensors, and can adjust the engine timing or turbocharger boost to suit the gasoline being used. on most cars, however, you should use the cheapest gas that makes your car run well. check your owner's manual for details on what your car q: my car was made for leaded gasoline. will unleaded gas hurt it? a: it is possible that unleaded gas may *slightly* increase valve wear, although the amoco oil company argues otherwise. the actual increase in valve wear will be almost unnoticeable, however, as modern leaded gasolines actually contain very little lead. you should, however, check your owner's manual; many cars from the early 1970s do not actually require leaded gasoline. q: do fuel treatments help? what kind should i use? a: some do and some don't. during the winter, it is a good idea to use dry gas; however, some may be harmful to fuel injection systems. never use an additive containing methanol (sometimes called methyl alcohol); such additives may damage fuel systems in cars with carbs and almost certainly will damage cars with fuel injection. manufacturer's opinions vary on additives containing ethanol (sometimes called ethyl alcohol); if your car has fuel injection, check the owner's manual on your car before using these. most manufacturers consider 10% ethanol acceptable in gasoline. additives with isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol), and petroleum distillates are fine in fuel injected an occasional bottle of fuel injector cleaner is helpful in cars with fuel injectors, although many premium gasolines contain detergents that do the same job. some off brands of fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol or methanol; always check the ingredients before putting anything in your gas tank. there are a small number of particularly good additives; these are noticeably more expensive that the run-of-the-mill ones, but work much, much better. among these are chevron techron, redline sl-1, wurth `lubrimoly ventil sauber', and bg 44k. a bottle of one of these, once every six months, is highly recommended. q: what about detergent gasolines? a: the quality of detergent packages in gasolines varies somewhat; bmw has instituted a testing program, and gasoline brands which pass this test may advertise that fact. stickers indicating passage of the test are now beginning to appear on fuel pumps at gas stations. if such gasolines are used, then fuel injector cleaners are probably optional. beforewarned that while use of bmw approved gasolines will keep a clean engine clean, they may not clean a motor with bad valve deposits. lubrication questions: q: what do the numbers and letters in a motor oil designation mean? a: there are several different items encoded. there is a two-letter code indicating the type of detergent package that the manufacturer uses in the oil; this looks like se,sf,cd or such. the s codes are for gasoline engine applications; the c codes are for diesel engine applications. the second letter is assigned in sequence as new levels of protection are developed; thus sf is considered better than se, se is considered better than sd, and so forth. the more noticeable designation is the oil weight. this is either a single number (e.g., 30 weight) or a pair of numbers separated by the letter w (e.g., 10w30.) the latter type is much more commonly used these days, and are the only type that most automobile manufacturers specify in operators manuals. the first number in the designation (10w) is the apparent viscosity of the oil when it is cold; the w stands for `winter'. the second number (30) is the viscosity of the oil when hot. there is a trick here; the oil doesn't actually get thicker (turn from 10 weight to 30 weight) as it gets hotter. what is actually happening is that when the oil is cold, it has the viscosity of a cold 10 weight oil. as it gets hotter, it doesn't get thin as fast as a 10w oil would; by the time it is up to temperature, it has the viscosity of a hot 30 weight oil. note that these numbers actually specify ranges of viscosities; not all 10w oils have exactly the same viscosity when cold, and not all 30 weight oils have the same viscosity when hot. note also that the novel behaviour of multi-grade oils is caused by additives, and it has been reported that with the sole exception of castrol gtx, 10w40 oils do not retain their multi-grade characteristics well over time. 10w30, 15w40, and 20w50 oils work very well, though. q: are `quick lube' places any good? a: some do adequate work, but there are quite a few incompetent ones out there. let the buyer beware, watch them while they work, make sure that they don't overtorque the oil drain plug, and keep your hand on your wallet at all times. q: are oil additives like slick-50 or tufoil any good? a: slick-50 and tufoil are ptfe-based additives. many of these have come onto the market recently; they are different from the moly-based additives that have been around since the early 50's. ptfe is the chemical name for teflon(tm), a trademark owned by dupont. in general, auto manufacturers do not recommend use of these products. most usenet responses to questions on these additives are favorable (slight increase of mpg after application, smoother revving) but long term results (whether ptfe additives are effective after 5k miles) are debatable. some manufacturers (such as saab) claim that either the product or the engine flush that preceeds application causes deterioration of the oil seals and eventual leakage. some bmw owners have reported death of valve seals shortly after the addition of slick 50 to their cars. this writer has been cautioned by a slick-50 dealer (!) that slick-50 should _not_ be used in japanese motors, as it may clog the oil return passages in the engine. otherwise, there are no known reports of damage caused by ptfe additives. on the other hand, there are satified slick 50 customers in the world. q: do synthetic oils really work? a: yes, but. more specifically, most auto manufactuers accept synthetics, but disagree with the extremely long oil change intervals claimed by oil manufacturers. auto manufacturers recommend that you continue to change oil at the intervals recommended in the owners manual for your car. even if you decide to try the longer intervals, at least change the oil filter at regular intervals, as synthetics get just as dirty as conventional oils. synthetic gear lubricants for manual transmissions are another matter entirely; amsoil, redline, and agip are very highly regarded and very effective. mobil 1 synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews, however. q: manufacturers are specifying longer and longer oil change intervals. how often should i change my oil? a: it depends on how you drive. if your car always (or nearly always) gets warmed up, and you don't drive it very hard and keep the revs down, the manufacturer's recommendation is probably fine. if, however, you drive it hard, drive it at high revs, or alternatively, if you only drive it to and from the supermarket so that it doesn't get up to temperature, then you may wish to change oil much more often, perhaps at 3000 mile intervals (given that most manufacturers are now specifying 7500 mile intervals.) if you don't drive your car much at all (say 7500 miles a year), then you probably want to change oil every six months anyway. if you are storing a car during the winter, then change oil before storing it and change oil when you bring it out of storage. misc. questions: q: my car has a timing belt. i hear that bad things happen when they break. what's the story? a: it depends on the internal design of the motor. early ford escorts, for example, will suffer severe valve damage if the belt breaks, but the newer cars will just require a tow and installation of a new belt. some honda motors will not be damaged, but others will be. if no replacement interval is specified for your car, then change the belt at least every 60,000 miles; some cars may require more frequent replacement. ask your dealer or independent mechanic. also, ask if there are any related repairs that should take place at the same time (for example, the same ford escorts that suffer valve damage also have a timing belt driven water pump, which has been known to seize, destroying the timing belt, and which then causes major valve damage as a side effect. replacing the timing belt while ignoring the water pump can be a costly mistake.) q: why would anyone be stupid enough to design a motor so that it self destructs when the timing belt breaks? a: for performance reasons. compromising piston design so that the valves and pistons will not collide requires that the compression ratio of the engine be reduced significantly; this is why you are more likely to avoid valve damage in economy cars than in performance oriented vehicles. q: what causes unintended acceleration? a: the final report of the national highway, transportation, and safety administration concluded that unintended acceleration could not be caused by any mechanical failure of the vehicle in question and at the same time be consistent with the physical evidence. the nhtsa report goes on to conclude that `pedal misapplication' by the vehicle operator is probably the cause. richard welty 518-393-7228 welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com ``nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis'' -- carroll smith 
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 unfortunately, i've got another story to add to this. my girlfriend and i were driving through west l.a., and got pelted by a rock just as we were pulling away from a stoplight. the scary thing was that the rock was heavy enough to put a decent-sized dent in the door of my '72 riviera which is pretty much solid "detriot iron." couple of inches higher and it would have gone through the window. chris barrus --- chrisb@lynx.ps.uci.edu --- kallista@aol.com 1972 buick riviera boattail, peace through superior automotive power! sacred cows make the best hamburger - abbie hoffman 
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 archive-name: rec-autos/part2 automotive mailing lists (electronic mail, that is): [last updated 3/17/93; new lotus, exotic cars list subscription info; added portland, or motorsports list, corvair list, triumph tr8 list -- rpw] there are a number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics. to the best of my knowledge, all the lists appearing here have open membership policies. it is my policy not to list `closed' mailing lists most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail; where separate administrative addresses exist, i have listed those below, as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests. (send requests to quattro-request@aries.east.sun.com) autocross/solo (send requests to autox-request@hoosier.cs.utah.edu) (send requests to bmw-request@balltown.cma.com both regular and digest forms available) british cars (send requests to british-cars-request@hoosier.cs.utah.edu) buick grand national/regal/gnx (send requests to gnttype-request@srvsn2.monsanto.com) camaro/firebird (gm f-body) (send requests to f-body-request@boogie.ebay.sun.com) (send requests to bryan@pegasus.mitre.org) there are two lists; the first is more of a competition oriented list, and the second is more general in nature (or so i am told) competition: (send requests to vettes-request@cimage.com) general: (send requests to vettes-request@compaq.com) datsun/fairlady roadsters (send requests to datsun-roadsters-request@hoosier.cs.utah.edu) dodge stealth/mitsubishi 3000gt (send requests to stealth-req%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu) eclipse/talon/laser (send requests to diginst!talon-request@radius.com) electric vehicles (send requests to info-ev-request@ymir.claremont.edu) exotic-cars (send requests to exotic-cars-request@sol.asl.hitachi.com) fabrication (race cars) (send requests to racefab-request@pms706.pms.ford.com) international harvester (discussion of scouts, pickups, etc.) (send requests to ihc-request@balltown.cma.com) italian cars (send requests to italian-cars-request@balltown.cma.com; both regular and digest forms available) listserv@brownvm.brown.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub honda-l your-real-name" with no subject line in the header hot rods (send requests to hotrod-request@dixie.com) land rovers (send requests to land-rover-owner-request@stratus.com) (send requests to lotus-cars-request@netcom.com) (send requests to mazda-list-request@ms.uky.edu) listserv@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu; use standard listserv subscription procedure: the mail message body to listserv should be "sub miata your-real-name" with no subject line in the header (send requests to merkur-request@pcad.uucp) (mostly high performance chrysler, dodge, plymouth products. send requests to mopar@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) (send requests to mr2-interest-request@validgh.com) there are two lists, the first is for mustangs through 1973, the second for mustangs from 1980 on. nobody cares about the mustang ii, so don't ask. classic: (send requests to classic-mustangs-request@hpfctjc.fc.hp.com) modern: (send requests to mustangs-request@cup.hp.com) offroad & 4x4 (send requests to offroad-request@ai.gtri.gatech.edu) (send requests to porschephiles-request@tta.com) portland, oregon motorsports activities (send requests to pdxracer-request@reed.edu) (send requests to rally-request@stratus.com) (send requests to jjn@cblpf.att.com) (send requests to saab@network.mhs.compuserve.com) (send requests to saturn-request@oar.net) school (high performance driving schools) (send requests to school-request@balltown.cma.com) sentra se-r, g20, n2000 (send requests to se-r-request@pencom.com) (send requests to supras-request@vicor.com) (send requests to toyota-request@quack.sac.ca.us) triumph tr7/v8, tr8 (send requests to jtc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) (requests to swedishbricks-request@me.rochester.edu) wheel-to-wheel racing (forum for race drivers, workers, crew, and wannabes; send requests to wheeltowheel-request@abingdon.sun.com) z-cars (nissan/datsun) (send requests to z-car-request@dixie.com) richard welty 518-393-7228 welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com ``nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis'' -- carroll smith 
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 archive-name: rec-autos/part6 [new article as of 4 february 1993 -- rpw] many people want to set up mailing lists for their favorite automotive topics; rather fewer know how to do it. this article will provide the essential information for doing so on standard unix systems. a shell script and examples of alias file setups are included which presently run on a sparc 2 here at balltown.cma.com for a number of mailing lists. note that if you do set up an automotive mailing list, please let me know of the -request address so that i can list it in the montly rec.autos posting. also inform the keeper of the usenet list-of-lists (check news.answers for this monthly posting.) first of all, to get anywhere, you need to either 1) be a sysadmin, or 2) have some measure of assistance from your sysadmin. it is also important that you have reasonably good network connectivity; if it seems like you get everything several days after anyone else, or that you have trouble getting email through, then your network connectivity is probably not good enough. listserv: there is a handy automated mailing list package named listserv, which is available from several ftp servers on the network. details of the installation and operation of listserv are beyond the scope of this article, but anyone who is considering running a large mailing list should probably look at listserv carefully. the alias file: on a typical unix system; there is a file named /usr/lib/aliases on whichever file server is your mail host; it contains lines such as: foo: bar, baz, bletch which means that any email sent the name `foo' on that host is redistributed to users bar, baz, and bletch. thus, the simplest possible email list is my-favorite-car: member1, member2, member3, my-address my-favorite-car-request: my-address this has a couple of problems; the most noticeable one being that you have to be superuser to edit the alias file. however, you can do the following, with the connivance of your sysadmin: my-favorite-car: :include:/home/mydir/misc/autos/my-favorite-car-list my-favorite-car-request: my-address where the file specified is a list of comma and newline separated addresses. this file can be in the list admin's home directory, owned by the list admin. bounced mail: this still has a problem; bounced mail usually gets distributed to all the members of the list, which is generally considered somewhat irritating. therefore, the way that the driving school mailing list is set up is instructive (thanks to harpal chohan of the bmw list for this setup, by the way. i'm not sure where he got it from.) school-request: welty school-rebroadcast: :include:/home/newwelty/misc/autos/school/list school: "|/usr/local/adm/bin/explscript school" owner-school: school-request owner-school-out: school-request here's what is going on here: the owner- and -request addresses are intended as traps for bounced mail coming from the network. the -request address also serves as the point of contact for administrative duties. school is what people send mail to; instead of pointing at addresses, it points at a shell script which rewrites headers before resending the email. school-broadcast (of which nobody except me knows the name; the name has been changed here to protect my own sanity) points at the actual list members. the shell script i use is as follows: #!/bin/sh cd /tmp sed -e '/^reply-to:/d' -e '/^sender:/d' -e '/^from /d' | \ (echo reply-to: ${1}@balltown.cma.com; \ echo errors-to: ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com; \ echo sender: ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com; \ cat -) | \ /usr/lib/sendmail -om -f ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com \ -f "the ${1} mailing list" ${1}-rebroadcast exit 0 note that this script does not know the name of the list; the name is passed in from outside, so that the script may be used for multiple lists (i run several out of this site.) the script excises reply-to:, sender:, and from lines from the incoming message, substitutes for sender: and reply-to:, and adds errors-to: 99.9% of all email bounce messages end up being sent to the -request or owner- addresses if this header rewrite is done. for digested lists, there is some digestification software around. hopefully i'll be able to provide more information in a future version of this posting. richard welty (welty@balltown.cma.com) richard welty 518-393-7228 welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com ``nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis'' -- carroll smith 
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 my top 10 list of dumbest automotive concepts ever 10. 1984 dodge colt vista - tachometer only avail. with automatic trans. 9. back-up lights on corvette - they're on the sides of the car! sure would be interested to know what year(s) this was! i don't seem to recall any car with back-up lights on the sides, much less any corvette. i suppose i could be mis-interpreting what you are trying to say here..... just a quick comment. backup lights mounted on the side would actually be *extremely* useful for people backing out of parking stalls... regards, charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --unknown net.person 
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 this is a two-sided problem. unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time. the "breeding" of these low-life's is getting worse; our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems. that is why low-abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent. my camaro (my pride and joy) got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back. the persons that did that were eventually caught (lucky for me!) but not before having trashed the car. on another occasion, on my way from texas to florida, i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida. about 5 youths were disturbing my car, setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out. when i and another tenant walked out with a 357 magnum and a 45 automatic respectively, they vanished. needless to say, i immediately packed-up and left. watch out for car-jacking and staged accidents. they can be deadly! steve heracleous 
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 my top 10 list of dumbest automotive concepts ever 9. back-up lights on corvette - they're on the sides of the car! sure would be interested to know what year(s) this was! i don't seem to recall any car with back-up lights on the sides, much less any corvette. i suppose i could be mis-interpreting what you are trying to say here..... just a quick comment. backup lights mounted on the side would actually be *extremely* useful for people backing out of parking stalls... while i can't think of any corvettes with side mounted backup lights, i know that saab started using them about 15 years ago. my 1975 saab 99 didn't have them, but a friend's 1978 saab 99 certainly did. in addition to the confentional tail-light mounted backup lights, they had another set integrated into the front turn signal assembly. for those of you who don't remember, saabs of that vintage had an enormous multicoloured plastic growth, about the size of a _national geographic_ magazine, sticking out of the front fender, which incorporated amber "parking lights", amber side marker lights/reflectors, white "cornering lamps" (like american luxury cars) aimed towards the side of the road when you have your turn indicators on, and white "backup lights" aimed towards the back of the car when you have selected reverse gear. the glossy brochure showed how these front mounted backup lights were useful for illuminating hazards (pot holes, kid's toys, etc) that would be run over by the front of the car if you had the wheels turned while backing up. mart l. molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto, canada m5s 1a4 (416)978-4928 
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<answer instance="rec.autos102781" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, wade@nb.rockwell.com (wade guthrie) says: this is consistent with the pre-'74 911. the engine before that was a 2.2 litre (or less, depending on how early you go), and got its power at high revs (starting slowly at about 3k, and jumping up at around 5k) with a narrow band. the '74 was a 3 litre and had a lot of smog equipment. if you got much power at all, it'd be better distributed through the rev bzzzt. wrong answer. it really depends on whether you are talking model year or date of manufacture. for instance, mine was a '67, but was manufactured in august of '66. prior to 1970 all 911s were 2.o liter. for the '70 and '71 model years they were 2.2 liter. for the 1972 and 1973 model years they were 2.4 liter _except_ for the '73 carerra rs which was a 2.7 liter. the '74 and later years were easily identified by the new 5 mph bumpers. most models in the '74 year were 2.7 lietsr _except_ the carerra rsr which was a 3.0 liter (us carerras from '74 were 2.7 liter models). in '78 they went to 3.0 liter and there was only a single model, the sc (think of it as a cross between the s and the carerra models). note all the above are based on _model_ year, not date of manufacture. i stand corrected. this is all from memory, mind you :-) as for the rev happy behavior, the earlier cars are even more prone to this. the 2.4 liter cars used low compression engines, and suffered a bit in this regard. the early 3.0 liter and 2.7 liter engines also got a good dose of smog gear as well. the 2.0 and 2.2 liter engines were far and away the quickest revvers of the lot. yeah, that's what i was trying to say. no, really! wade guthrie | trying to program on ms-dos is like trying wade@nb.rockwell.com | to shave with a chain-saw. me be not speaking for the rock. | 
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<instance id="rec.autos102784">
<answer instance="rec.autos102784" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 is anyone reading this message involved with the new bmw plant? (does bmw corporate even have a net-connection?) desperately seeking info, jeff hagen hagenjd@ac.wfu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102786">
<answer instance="rec.autos102786" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my top 10 list of dumbest automotive concepts ever 10. 1984 dodge colt vista - tachometer only avail. with automatic trans. 9. back-up lights on corvette - they're on the sides of the car! sure would be interested to know what year(s) this was! i don't seem to recall any car with back-up lights on the sides, much less any corvette. i suppose i could be mis-interpreting what you are trying to say here..... just a quick comment. backup lights mounted on the side would actually be *extremely* useful for people backing out of parking stalls... regards, charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --unknown net.person wasn't the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver, so he could see where he was backing up??? although reverse lights on the sides are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car, i don't think warnings were their original intents, since they are colored white. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu ******************************neil peart, (c)1981***************************** *"quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand, ignorance and prejudice* *and********fear********walk********************hand*********in*********hand"* 
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<instance id="rec.autos102787">
<answer instance="rec.autos102787" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 a little bit off of the subject but here goes yes he is one in the same (i.e. chevrolet motor div) also his brother gaston raced at indy and was the winner in 1920. i have also seen the name arthur chevrolet in the early teens (1911 and on) i assume he is related keith nuetzman, nuet_ke@pts.mot.com motorola inc. paging and wireless data group boynton beach, fl see ya at indy 500 and "400" ...yes!!! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102788">
<answer instance="rec.autos102788" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i bought an intrepid about two months ago and am very happy with it. lots of room inside and even with the smaller engine it has enough power for me. the only problem i found was a small selection on the dealer's lots. they are hot sellers around here. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102791">
<answer instance="rec.autos102791" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 is there a simple way tooput these sunroofs out of their misery - do leaks tend to be from old gaskets ? or from inadequate mechanical seals - or all of the above ?? is there any way to halt the rain ? henry bruno kon office: 617-253-2781 (with machine) home: 617-625-3972 (with machine) 
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<instance id="rec.autos102795">
<answer instance="rec.autos102795" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have $30,000 as my budget. i'm looking for a sports or gt car. what do you think would be the best buy? (i'm looking for specific models) = "hey! you programmers out there! | danny phornprapha = = please consider this: | ip02@lehigh.edu = = bugs are another endangered earth | lucc student konsultant = = species needing your protection. | work: (215) 758-4141 = 
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<instance id="rec.autos102800">
<answer instance="rec.autos102800" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ites: "can i ask. have any of you been at the speed of 130? it's a rush." so is cocaine. what's your point? -=- andrew klossner (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com) don't know about the cocaine, but.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102802">
<answer instance="rec.autos102802" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 good luck. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102803">
<answer instance="rec.autos102803" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 please satisfy my curiosity. i'm interested in finding out who is using the e-mail system. please do not flood me with mail after april 21st. thanks! maria alice ruth mao111@psuvm.bitnet or @psuvm.psu.edu 1. are you male or female? 2. how long have you been using the e-mail system? 3. how do you have access (at work, at school, etc)? 4. who taught you how to use the system? is that person male or female? 5. have you helped anyone to learn the system? was that person(s) male or 6. which net did you find my questions on? 7. which other nets are you interested in? 8. how often do you read/post to the system? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102807">
<answer instance="rec.autos102807" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 #[sorry for the 0 auto content, but ... ] #> that is why low-abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves #> and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is #> imminent. #> steve heracleous #you do have the power steve. you *can* do it. why don't you? why don't you #go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars? make sure you do a good #job though - don't miss - 'cause like they have big rocks - and take it from #me - those kids are mean. this last comment was obviously a bit cynical, but a true statement of the attitude of some drivers (there's your "autos" content), i would say. what law-abiding (not "low-abiding" as above (talk about freudian slips!)) citizens have the right and responsibility to do is try to prevent this type of behaviour in children. a doctor may have to use "deadly force" against a part of a body (like amputating it) when an infection/disease has gone too far. but his real desire would have been to *prevent* the disease in the first place or at least nip it in the bud. followups should go to alt.parents-teens fred w. bach , operations group | internet: music@erich.triumf.ca triumf (tri-university meson facility) | voice: 604-222-1047 loc 327/278 4004 wesbrook mall, ubc campus | fax: 604-222-1074 university of british columbia, vancouver, b.c., canada v6t 2a3 these are my opinions, which should only make you read, think, and question. they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102808">
<answer instance="rec.autos102808" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 (neil williams) writes... #as long as we're on the subject... several years ago myself and two others #were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate 5 #north of seattle, wa. someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our #windshield. not by accident i'm sure, it was impossible to get up to the #overpass quickly to see who did it. we figured it was kids, reported it and #left. #a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company. he was #in his mid-fourties and left behind a wife and children. turned out there was #a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away. they caught the 14 year old #that did it. they put a cover over the overpass, what else could they do? #i don't think i'll over forget this story. #neil williams, boeing computer services, bellevue wa. neil, what did they do to the 14-year-old who they caught? what did the man's insurance company do? this could be significant and in any case very interesting. followups to alt.parents-teens. fred w. bach , operations group | internet: music@erich.triumf.ca triumf (tri-university meson facility) | voice: 604-222-1047 loc 327/278 4004 wesbrook mall, ubc campus | fax: 604-222-1074 university of british columbia, vancouver, b.c., canada v6t 2a3 these are my opinions, which should only make you read, think, and question. they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102809">
<answer instance="rec.autos102809" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 w/r/t performance, converter lockup is purely irrelevant. the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg. mind you, a converter clutch does a lovely job of improving mpg, but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration (vs. locked converter clutch) than its inherent losses take away. the transmission in my car contradicts both your assertions.. i get much stronger acceleration if i let the convertor lockup.. which i can induce by briefly lifting off, then quickly (but not too quickly to trigger a kickdown) applying throttle. above 3000 rpms, the convertor will never unlock; it would kickdown first. who says there's no skill involved in driving an automatic? i think of it as the throttle and shifter combined into a single pedal. with my car i can pretty much influence its shifting patterns with my right foot, while having both hands to steer. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102811">
<answer instance="rec.autos102811" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 could we plase cease this discussion. i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end. these areas are not meant for this type of discussion. if you feel the need to do such things, please take your thought elsewhere. thanks. : i want only two things from this world, a 58 plymouth and a small : : opec nation with which to fuel it. this would be a good and just : : thing. car smashers can just go home and sulk. : : jacques brouillette --- manufacturing engineering : 
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<instance id="rec.autos102815">
<answer instance="rec.autos102815" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 warren brown, the washington post's auto writer was the first journalist to get his hands on the new yorker. if you'd like his impressions of it his review appeared in friday's paper, in the "weekend" section. he is not your traditional auto writer... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102818">
<answer instance="rec.autos102818" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 does anyone know of a dead first generation mr2? i need body parts, steering rack, and a few minor pieces. i was about to buy a parts car, but the owner backed out after 3 month of pulling my leg. arrrrgh. mike.s 
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<instance id="rec.autos102819">
<answer instance="rec.autos102819" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the biggest hurdle for automatics (imho) is not shifting speed per se, but rather the transmission's reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually. this was the biggest fault with the subaru ecvt -- it took soooooo lonnnnnnnnggggg for the tranny to find the right ratio. the sales propaganda says the saturn automatic is effectively an electronically-shifted manual. might this mean that saturn has conquered the problem? (i dunno, only driven saturn 5-speeds) input, please! another question: any plans for a manual-trans chrysler lh? does anyone else out there fall asleep at night dreaming of this combo? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102820">
<answer instance="rec.autos102820" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 chances are that this has been discussed to death already, and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site. basically, i am just wondering if slick 50 really does all it says that it does. and also, is there any data to support the claim. thanks for any info. mike davis mad9a@fermi.clas.virginia.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102822">
<answer instance="rec.autos102822" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 fact is, i just leave the valet key in my glovebox for whenever i need it... that will make it easy for a car thief. saves him/her the trouble of popping your ignition! dick grady salem, nh, usa grady@world.std.com so many newsgroups, so little time! 
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<instance id="rec.autos102825">
<answer instance="rec.autos102825" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my physical therapist has suggested that a good driving position for me is to have my back nearly vertical and for my knees not to be much higher than my hips. are there any cars that are particularly good in respect to having both headroom and a well designed seat height? take a look at mini-vans. i sat in a dodge caravan, which had a high seat and plenty of headroom. dick grady salem, nh, usa grady@world.std.com so many newsgroups, so little time! 
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<instance id="rec.autos102826">
<answer instance="rec.autos102826" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 $ the biggest hurdle for automatics (imho) is not shifting speed $ per se, but rather the transmission's reaction speed when you $ try to force it to shift manually. i rented an oldsmobile achieva (is that a yuppie name or what?) and a nissan stanza. they both had automatics. i'm a manual transmission bigot but i have to admit that the transmissions on these cars were better shifters than i am. and yes, they responded very quickly to kickdown requests. the nissan had a tachometer so i was able to figure out which gear i was in. (the olds may have also, but i don't remember.) i believe it shifted all the way down to second at about 50 mph when my foot told it, "no i really want to accelerate quickly." i would still prefer a manual, but i won't delude myself into thinking that i can out-accelerate a modern automatic. and i'm very smooth at shifting but certainly not as good as an automatic. tommy reingold at&t bell labs, holmdel, nj tommy@boole.att.com or att!boole!tommy 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102827">
<answer instance="rec.autos102827" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi everyone, i'm getting a car in the near future. i've narrow it down to 300zx and sc300. which might be a better choice? thanks for your opnion, = "hey! you programmers out there! | danny phornprapha = = please consider this: | ip02@lehigh.edu = = bugs are another endangered earth | lucc student konsultant = = species needing your protection. | work: (215) 758-4141 = 
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<instance id="rec.autos102828">
<answer instance="rec.autos102828" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was lloking at the geo prizm lsi today (very nice). anyway, i had a questions that the salesperson couldn't answer. how does the theft deterrent on the prizm's audio systems work? can't find the answer in any of geo's lterature. thanks in advance. archie holmes 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102835">
<answer instance="rec.autos102835" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you hold off, there are a number of interesting convertibles coming to market in the next few years. the new lebaron will be based on the mitsubishi galant, which should be an improvement over the current model. the new pl compact will have a convertible option (also a chrysler product) kia, makers of the ford festiva is planning a larger convertible. steve morris, m.a. : internet: smorris@sumax.seattleu.edu addiction studies pgm : uucp :{uw-beaver,uunet!gtenmc!dataio}!sumax!smorris seattle university : phone : (206) 296-5350 (dept) or 296-5351 (direct) seattle, wa 98122_____:________________________________________________________ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102836">
<answer instance="rec.autos102836" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 an excellent automatic can be found in the subaru legacy. it switches to "sport" mode when the electronics figure it, not when the driver sets the switch.. which is the proper way to do it, imo. so what does "sport" mode entail? several things: 1) revving to red line (or to the rev limiter in the case of the legacy) 2) delayed upshifts. (i.e. if you lift off briefly, it will remain in the low gear. this is handy if you are charging through corners and would like to do without the distraction of upshifts when there's another curve approaching) 3) part throttle downshifts, based on the *speed* at which the pedal is depressed, rather than the *position* of the pedal. modern electronics can measure this very easily and switch to sport mode. this is wonderful if you want to charge through a green light about to turn red. my audi senses this very well and can downshift on as little as half throttle if my right foot is fast enough. also, i think that a smart automatic can deliver better gas mileage than a dumb driver with a stick, all else being equal.. remember that the idea of a stick being more economical than an automatic makes a big assumption that the driver is smart enough to know what gear to use for each situation.. how many times have you ridden with an inattentive driver cruising on the highway at 55/65 in 4th gear (of a 5 speed)? how many % of people who drive manuals *really* know what the best gear to use is for every conceivable situation? i'm sure there will be some who know, but i suspect that a chip controlled automatic with all possible scenario/ratio combinations stored in rom is likely to do better. i can also say that all my previous assumptions were proved wrong after i got a car with instantaneous mpg readout... high gear, low revs and wide open throttle is more economical than low gear, high revs and small throttle opening. the explanation is quite simple if one sits down to think about it, but not that obvious at first sight. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102837">
<answer instance="rec.autos102837" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 we get about 20 taurus/sables for fleet cars at our site every year, then the company sells them a year later to employees. the folks i know who drive/buy them have no complaints. the cars seem to drive real nice too. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102838">
<answer instance="rec.autos102838" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in rec.autos you write: if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission, it can't be half bad.. :-) this mclaren auto-transmission (i still think it's only half auto, but you may be right) has nothing to do with your gm, chrysler, volvo, or whatever auto transmission. it's a normal manual transmission gearbox with clutch and all, but there are servo motors, which do the shifting. that means, there is no power loss in the drivetrain (if you take out minimal mechanical friction), and the sami-auto transmissions (ferrari, williams, mclaren(?),...) don't tell you, when to shift, either. however, these transmissions share an important disadvantage with your stock auto-trannie: they are expensive. as long as these servo-shifted gearboxes aren't available on 'normal' cars i'm gonna stick with my manual. i just can't see an advantage to make up for two grand i lose in this deal and the loss in mileage and power (except maybe in real heavy traffic). but then i drive mostly on the autobahn and country roads anyway. there's no point in making a religion out of this, i just wanted to point out a few technical facts and my own opinion, so there's no need for a flame war. have a safe ride 
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<instance id="rec.autos102841">
<answer instance="rec.autos102841" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello world, just bought a new stealth two weeks ago. got a grad student rebate. someone told me that there's another $400 reabet for 1st time chrysler buyer. true ? if yes can i still get it or am i too late ? mubashir cheema sparco communications ph: (601) 323-5360 lagalarie fax:(601) 324-6433 500 russell street, suite 20 email: mac1@ra.msstate.edu starkville, ms 39759 
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<instance id="rec.autos102842">
<answer instance="rec.autos102842" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am currently in the car market and would like opinions on a vw passat glx. how does it compare to a toyota camry? i thought the car looked very solid, stable and european. only disappointment so far is that that it doesn't offer an airbao my next question is, why isn't vw offering automobiles with airbags? should i pay the extra three thousand for a bmw 318 is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102843">
<answer instance="rec.autos102843" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> i have $30,000 as my budget. i'm looking for a sports or gt car. |> what do you think would be the best buy? well, for a bit more you could get an mazda rx-7, definitely a best. for under $30k you're stuck with (in no particular order): chevy camaro z28 lt1-1 ponitac firebird firehawk ford mustang cobra toyota mr2 turbo gmc typhoon ;) 
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<instance id="rec.autos102844">
<answer instance="rec.autos102844" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was in the great storm.....my mazda mpv was damaged so bad they are going to replace the top, doors and hood. it is black so they will repaint the entire vehicle...estimated cost around $7000 and repair time approx. 3 to 4 weeks. rremaley@bcm.tmc.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102845">
<answer instance="rec.autos102845" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 #>in article <1993apr15.222600.11690@research.nj.nec.com> #>> several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for #>> r12. you don't hear about them because the mobile air conditioning #>society #>> (macs), that is, the people who stand to rake in that $300 to $1000 per #>> retrofit per automobile, have mounted an organized campaign to squash #>those #>> r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether (on very #>shaky #>> technical grounds, at best, on outright lies at worst). #>now, i'm not saying you're wrong because i know that the r-12 substitutes #>exist, but this sounds a lot like the 200mpg carbs that the oil companies #>keep us all from getting. # it sounds crazy, but it's true. one of the best r-12 subsitutes, #ghg-12, is currently a commercial product. unfortunately, the sae committee #on mobile air conditioning is comprised almost exclusively of macs members. #such being the case, no papers about any alternative refrigerant other than #r-134a have been accepted for review/publication. # yo, john? you want to provide some more details? or should i just #repost your voluminous repost? #later, #chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady #behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike #disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name #agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. we here are *very* interested in info on r12 substitutes (in fact i think we really need all the info on this we can get). i would really appreciate technical, supply, and hardware-upgrade also, r12 is a useful solvent/reagent in the extraction/production of certain pharmaceuticals. any info on the substitutes' corresponding i am currently working with the local engineers who are making sure we are compliant with the regulations. the trouble with regulations is that they only tell you what you are no longer permitted to do, not what you should do instead. i think the cause of the new regulations is the montreal protocol which has a definite cfc-phase-out schedule. (of course the cause of the montreal protocol was all the research done on the causes of the ozone depletion problem.) someone asked earlier about why the governments were working so fast to ban the ozone-depleting (cfc) chemicals and not gasolines and other greenhouse-gas-producing compounds. the greenhouse effect (produced by infrared-trapping gasses like co2 and methane) and the ozone-hole problem (produced by long-lived, chlorine-containing molecules) are not the same thing. it is a lot easier to do something about not using the cfc's (chloro-fluorocarbons) than it is to stop producing co2 and methane which are natural byproducts of combustion and of living (animal) organisms. planting more trees and not destroying so many existing trees would help the greenhouse-gas problem, but would do nothing for the ozone problem. fred w. bach , operations group | internet: music@erich.triumf.ca triumf (tri-university meson facility) | voice: 604-222-1047 loc 327/278 4004 wesbrook mall, ubc campus | fax: 604-222-1074 university of british columbia, vancouver, b.c., canada v6t 2a3 these are my opinions, which should only make you read, think, and question. they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102849">
<answer instance="rec.autos102849" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 : while not exactly a service incident, i had a similar experience recently : when i bought a new truck. : i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we : agreed on a price. i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax : and license and told them i'd be back that evening to pick up the truck. : when i returned, i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could : get to me. when i finally got in there, everything went smoothly until he : started adding up the numbers. he then discovered that they had : miscalculated the tax & license by about $150. he then said he needed : another $150 from me. i said we had already agreed on a price and it was : their problem, i wasn't giving them any more money. the finance guy then a similar thing happend to me a year ago. i bought a used ford bronco (which has since been stolen... :( ) and few weeks after i paid and took delivery, they sent a letter telling me they goofed and miscalculated the license renewal by $300 and that i need to send in a check to "avoid further delay" in the processing of my registration. the thing is, i had already received the pink slip from the dmv, so i ignored it. i received another letter and then the phone calls started coming. first from the finance guy and then from the general manager, both hounding me for the extra money. they left me alone once i told them i already had the paperwork and pointed out the clause in the contract that stated that the final price was just that: final. afterall, they wouldn't budge if i had told them i wanted another $300 off after the deal had been signed, right? i told them not to call again and that i would not do business with them in the future. they didn't seem to have a problem with that. this, after all, was a used ford at a toyota dealership. i had a much better experience buying a new pathfinder about a month ago. it certainly pays to buy a car on the last sunday of the month. it was even raining too, so they had done very little business that weekend and were really willing to deal. i kept telling them i would think about it, and they kept dropping the price. got a very good deal and so far have been very please with the service. ---john jdenune@pandora.sdsu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102850">
<answer instance="rec.autos102850" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am looking for recommendations for a good (great?) alfa romeo mechanic in south jersey or philadelphia or nearby. i have a '78 alfa spider that needs some engine, tranny, steering work done. the body is in quite good shape. the car is awful in cold weather, won't start if below freezing (i know, i know, why drive a spider if there's snow on the ground ...). it has bosch *mechanical* fuel injection that i am sure needs adjustment. any opinions are welcome on what to look for or who to call. email or post (to rec.autos), i will summarize if people want. thx, andy (brandt@cs.unc.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.autos102851">
<answer instance="rec.autos102851" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i take the electrodes of the amp/ohm/volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe. then, symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots. no cheating guys! both hands must be used! i have just a couple of questions about this technique. first, what firing order should i use? do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky? left hand or right? and secondly, i have a 12cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for. any suggestions? /andy 
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<instance id="rec.autos102852">
<answer instance="rec.autos102852" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> while taking an extended easter vacation, i was going north on i-45 |> somewhere between centerville, tx and dallas, tx and i came upon a |> train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over |> the northbound lanes. there appeared to be movement within the cab |> and out of curiosity i slowed to 85 to get a better look. just as i |> passed from underneath the trestle, my radar detector went into full |> alert - all lights lit and all chirps, beeps, and buzzes going strong. |> i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized. |> could this have been caused by the train's radio or what? |> travis boy, travis.. were you lucky!!.. you went under the new texas rangers stealth patrol car! good thing you slowed down! newsgroups: rec.autos distribution: world followup-to: references: <1993apr13.111652@usho72.hou281.chevron.com> organization: 
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<instance id="rec.autos102853">
<answer instance="rec.autos102853" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my honda accord just hit the magic 100,000 mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad. the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes. they still stop the car fine, but once i am stopped completely, my brake pedal will sink another 2 or 3 inches all by itself. if feels really strange, and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days. i checked my brake fluid, and the reservoir was full, but the fluid itself looked really dirty (like dirty oil). i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder, which will cost me a whopping $250-300. i was just wondering if anyone out there has experienced this sort of thing. if so, is my mechanic being honest? or do i simply need to have my brakes bled and new fluid put in? any help you could provide would be appreciated. please send replies directly to me, as i rarely have a chance to read this list. i will post the responses if there is any interest. ciarlett@mizar.usc.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102854">
<answer instance="rec.autos102854" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have the eurowiper boots in white and had to throw away the first pair since i found no way of cleaning them after they looked almost black. now i have my second pair of white ones and once again they are dirty. i need a way to clean them w/o removing them since i had to cut them to remove them, is there a way? or should i just buy black ones? joel sprechman sprec-j@acsu.buffalo.edu university at buffalo v069pff7@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu "it's not a black/white thing, it's a homosapian thing" "it takes a big man to cry, and an even bigger man to laugh at that man" -jack handy 
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<instance id="rec.autos102855">
<answer instance="rec.autos102855" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 with the popularity of minivans, the market room for station wagons is squeezed out. they are not as comfortable as sedan, and don't carry as much as the minivans. this is not to say nobody wants the wagon anymore. but the demand is certainly hampered by the minivan, and may not be economical to build a product for. jason chen a station wagon owner 
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<instance id="rec.autos102857">
<answer instance="rec.autos102857" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 that's not the clutch you're hearing, its the gearbox. early shos have a lot of what is referred to as 'gear rollover' noise. you can generally i have one of the first shos built, and _mine_ doesn't make this noise. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102858">
<answer instance="rec.autos102858" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it's a bit hard to "prove" a point like this, but i can compare the i was hoping for something like "the chassis exhibits x degrees of flex when subjected to forces of more than y units. forces of more than y units begin to manifest at z miles per hour." not "well, gee, it wasn't designed to go fast because, uhh, well, gee, it wasn't designed to go fast. it's not a porsche, you know". come with better seatbelts, more supportive seats, a stronger passenger compartment cage, better brakes, a stiffer suspension, different tires, and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground. what *do* they come with? well, as compared to the normal taurus, the sho comes with more supportive seats,better brakes,a stiffer suspension, different tires, and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground (or at least i think that's what all that boy-racer plastic is for). you're kidding yourself if you think any car on the road has a passenger compartment made to withstand 130 mph impacts. compare either to the porsche 911 and you tell me which was designed oh, right. only 120,000 dollar cars should be driven fast. they drive goddamn rabbits at 120 mph in europe, pal, and i reckon a taurus is at least as capable as a rabbit. certainly haven't convinced me. of course not. "speeding-is-bad. speeding-is-illegal. i-will-not-speed. i-love-big-brother." you had your mind made up it's interesting that lots of the roads out west had *no* speed limits until 1975. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102862">
<answer instance="rec.autos102862" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi all, brand new to the group, so please, no flames! honest opinions on jeep cherokee country (not sport) v. ford explorer. my stepfather, who ponders every major decision up to four months after making it, is looking at one of the two. also, please comment on the importance, if any, between 4wd and 2wd. we live in princeton, nj and will barely ever take it off road. we learned with this last winter that we could really use something with a little more confidence in 20 inches of snow than an olds cutlass eighty-eight!! all replies appreciated.. he'll be pondering this for a while. he's already decided on 6 cyl. over 4, so don't worry about that one.. thanks! -->steve i own a new ford explorer, i really love it! i drove the jeep and besides the power i just didn't see spending the money for it! the jeep was great but i just love the explorer! i have a 2wd and i got through the blizzard of 93 just fine! i drove about 400 miles in the worst part of storm and it never faulterd! my own opinion doug i (jcksnste@acf1.nyu.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.autos102864">
<answer instance="rec.autos102864" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just visited the ny auto show, and saw two lh cars on the floor: eagle vision and dodge intrepid. really nice i must say. very attractive styling, lots of features and room, at a competitive price. unfortunately, the workmanship is quite disappointing. on both cars, the rubber seals around the window and door fell off. it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band. it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame. surely it would come off easily. i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering/assembly problems that will show up later. i may still consider buying it, but only when it establishes a good track record. jason chen 
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<instance id="rec.autos102868">
<answer instance="rec.autos102868" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 [sorry for the 0 auto content, but ... ] that is why low-abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is steve heracleous you do have the power steve. you *can* do it. why don't you? why don't you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars? make sure you do a good job though - don't miss - 'cause like they have big rocks - and take it from me - those kids are mean. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102870">
<answer instance="rec.autos102870" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 one thing that everyone is forgetting in this argument over the pricing of the sc1 vs. the japanese cars is the saturns "no-dicker sticker". this makes the saturn's price low in comparison to the inflated base prices of the japanese competition on paper, but in reality, one could dicker several hundred dollars off the price of the japanese cars. admittedly, though, here in canada, at least, the sc2 is in the same price class as the civic si, not the steve hui 
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<instance id="rec.autos102872">
<answer instance="rec.autos102872" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just visited the ny auto show, and saw two lh cars on the floor: eagle vision and dodge intrepid. really nice i must say. very attractive styling, lots of features and room, at a competitive price. unfortunately, the workmanship is quite disappointing. on both cars, the rubber seals around the window and door fell off. it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band. it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame. surely it would come off easily. lack of build quality was the thing i notced on the first 2 lh's i saw months back. the panel gaps were large and non-uniform between the 2 cars i saw - the kind of thing you expect and accept on a mustang - but not from chrysler's savior. i drove one of the low end cars, and thought it was more than adequate. i'd prefer an lh to a taurus from my brief experience. i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering/assembly problems that will show up later. i may still consider buying it, but only when it establishes a good track record. jason chen 
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<instance id="rec.autos102873">
<answer instance="rec.autos102873" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 driving 130 in a straight line is fine, you very soon become aclimated to it. it's only a rush when there are corners that you don't think you can make. on a clear autobahn, 130 is nothing. in the u.s. 99% of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise. sure, but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better the quality of autobahns is something of a myth. the road surface isn't much different to a typical tx freeway. they are better in terms of lighting, safety, signs, roadmarkings etc. i'd have no problem driving 130 on most us freeways, as it is, i save it for the backroads, which really are more likely to be dangerous. than most of the roads here. a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at 60 will kill you at 130. don't get me wrong, i love to it would have to be quite severe. i don't recall any us freeway, without road damage warnings, that i would regard as unsafe at 130 in any decent, well damped car. note that my definition of decent, well damped, would exclude most typical american sedans. drive quickly and they say my probe will do 130, but that's 30 more than i've ever tried in it cause there isn't a decent enough piece of road hereabouts. i don't know where you live, but i would be much more worried about cops, other traffic etc. than the road surface at 130. it just isn't that fast or that dangerous. if you have a probe gt, no problem. the 4cyl models i have driven would be likely to be unpredictable at higher speeds. mark hartman mhartman@umcc.umcc.umich.edu kalamazoo, mi bk405@cleveland.freenet.edu "i'm naked in the school!" - sleepyhead - 
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<instance id="rec.autos102876">
<answer instance="rec.autos102876" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 [stuff deleted] excuse me, but i understood what mr. smith meant. and, i have often observed when traffic is "blocked solid", that if a few people yeild to the "moron" who is impatiently riding bumpers, the slug at the front of the pack will miraculously wake up, change lanes, and viola! no more jam. granted the situation here does not apply to rush hour in a crowded city. but i have observed this situation regularly on your average interstate, six or eight sets of cars, side by side, bunched up in a "pack" with open freeway fore and aft as far as you can see. the people who refuse to yeild as a "point of honor" are just as annoying as the slug in the front. i agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass, you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don't want to give them that one car-length, when they should just wait like you are. but, if you're one of those people that just sit's behind the person, and doesn't flash them with the high beams, or pull left and flash them, or ride their bumper, or otherwise tell them that you *do* in fact want to go by, and you're not just drafting them, then get the hell out of the way of someone who will! i especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of a line and they don't 'pass it on'. so after i've flashed my lights at the chap in front and he doesn't 'pass it on' (and few if any do), what next? on major highways, 3 or more lanes in each direction, keeping to the extreme right blocks folks who are entering. also, as someone posted in this thread, here in the d.c. area we have a few left lane exits (sounds like 66). if you wait until the last minute to get in the left lane you won't, cause these yoyos won't make room. we have a particularly bad strech here in merryland just over the cabin john bridge. there are two very long entry ramps which all the hurry-up yahoos dive into cause they want to get ahead. when we get to the point where these ramps merge, all hell breaks lose. the result is that traffic which was moving at 55 on the va side of the bridge, stalls on t'other side. if these dingbats had stayed in lane, allowed the folks coming up the two ramps to merge, we would still be doing 55. instead we do start- stop for 4 miles. dave barry's idea of a laser equipped car would be real useful here. ps: if you drive the beltway and want to merge, look for a brown probe with a silver haired driver, then use your signals - i don't read minds, but i do try to be courteous. they told me courtesy was contagious, but i guess the folks around here have had their shots :-/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102877">
<answer instance="rec.autos102877" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i know that this isn't the group for it, but since you brought it up, does anyone have any idea why they haven't "bombed" the waco cult? perhaps it is because witnesses who have left the compound have all testified that the batf shot first, they they did not identify themselves before tossing in concussion grenades (not that anyone inside could have _heard_ such identification after being near a concussion grenade) and the announcement from the batf that they have sealed the warrant under which they were operating - which was a _search_ warrant, by the way, _not_ an arrest warrant. in short, perhaps because the batf is wildly out of control and perhaps calmer heads have realized that bombing a compound full of woman and children will not improve their position. there is a real chance that koresh will be able to prove self-defense in court. that will leave - what? - four officers dead and no one to blame but the batf. followups directed to alt.activism, where the discussion has raged nearly as long as the seige, and which shows every sign of not giving up nearly as soon. larry smith (smith@ctron.com) no, i don't speak for cabletron. need you ask? liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want, it is the freedom to do whatever we are able. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102878">
<answer instance="rec.autos102878" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it shouldn't be that hard if you know much about digital electronics. if the counter is made with standard ttl chips, all you should need to do is find the chip(s) used for counting, figure out what mileage you want to put in, and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low/high (you'd also have to know what the conventions are for low and high). it might be a little more involved than this, but it shouldn't be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet. all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a "translation table" stored in rom. nobody is using discrete ic's to do these functions anymore if at all. i doubt any of the motor electronics had any to start with. ...much less ttl. i can almost guarantee that it'll a fruitless attempt to figure out how bmw does it without breaking anything and invalidating any warranty on the car. if you're lucky, you'd still be able to start the car. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102879">
<answer instance="rec.autos102879" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway. snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass. four or five cars were hit. there were several serious injuries, and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks. i don't recall if she made it, but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren't holding out hope that she'd live. the girl's ok, actually, and she recovered well enough to go home. i don't know if she has any permanent damage, though. just in case anybody was concerned... what the hell is happening to this great country of ours? i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such, but 20 pound rocks??! has our society really stooped this low?? erik velapold if people start forcing others to take responsibility for their actions things like this wouldn't happen. untill we stop blaming outside causes, and start blaming the criminals, we will continue to let things like this happen. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu ******************************neil peart, (c)1981***************************** *"quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand, ignorance and prejudice* *and********fear********walk********************hand*********in*********hand"* 
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<instance id="rec.autos102880">
<answer instance="rec.autos102880" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper. i took it out for a test drive, without his knowledge, and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket. wierd dream, i wonder what it means.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos102882">
<answer instance="rec.autos102882" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ...and in san francisco recently, some of our finest examples of humanity poured oil over a road so that vehicles going uphill would suddnely become immobile, and then they would walk right up to the vehicles and make their demands known. mark barnes, system engineer | <insert standard disclaimers here> sunsoft | corporate technical escalations | i speak for myself, an individual, menlo park, ca, usa | not for the company for which i work. barnesm@vavau.corp.sun.com | 
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<instance id="rec.autos102883">
<answer instance="rec.autos102883" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 yes, i have the same questions. what makes me upset is that r12 costs are skyrocketing and in fact can't be bought anymore in my area. also this is yet another way mechanics and dealers can rip-off customers. also i was reading that the new refrigerant is not compatible with the r12 system and that it would cost $ 300 upto a $ 1000 to retrofit a car with the old r12 system. although it is important to consider the environment i think the sudden ban is a slap in the face for the consumer. why is it that the consumer should have to pay for the retrofit? the auto companies should have seen this coming? also why is it that the governments of the world were so quick in banning freon use and yet so slow in banning gasoline. in my opinion gasoline is just as hazardous as anything else. why can't they start proposing bans on this and switch to natural gas or electric? the technology is there. hopefully some chemist will come up with another alternative coolant that will be compatible with the old system. al h. several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12. you don't hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society (macs), that is, the people who stand to rake in that $300 to $1000 per retrofit per automobile, have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether (on very shaky technical grounds, at best, on outright lies at worst). does this piss you off? yes? write a letter to your congressman, to your senator, to the president, to the epa, and to the dot and complain. chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102886">
<answer instance="rec.autos102886" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 however, if i were to design a bmw's electronics, i will use a counter to count the number of times the car passed 1 million miles (or whatever), and store it in the car computer's memory. this could be read when doing a diagnostics test. ditto for the date of the odometer. as easy as this is, i don't know why manafucturers don't do it (don't they?) to prevent illegal odometer tampering. but as a previous writer said, it will in any case take aeons to reset an odometer, mechanic or electronic by simulating a driving car. it will be easier to reprogram it. how, i don't know. it shouldn't be that hard if you know much about digital electronics. if the counter is made with standard ttl chips, all you should need to do is find the chip(s) used for counting, figure out what mileage you want to put in, and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low/high (you'd also have to know what the conventions are for low and high). it might be a little more involved than this, but it shouldn't be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet. all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a "translation table" stored in rom. but, those chips are probably inside a custom chip, (to make it smaller and use less power) and the preset/data pins are not going to be available. it would probably not be ttl but might be cmos (wider operating voltage range), not that the tecnology would make much difference. plus the custom chip would probably be potted (encapsulated with epoxy). good luck. --garyl------------------------------------------------------------------------- "any shark that gets to be 11 or 12 feet long with 300 big teeth can be considered dangerous" - 'shark bowl '92' 
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<instance id="rec.autos102888">
<answer instance="rec.autos102888" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 [stuff about autobahn and safety of sho at speed deleted] the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho -- a big power the mustang is a much worse case of design irresponsibility than the plant stuck in a mid-size sedan, with almost no other modifications. i have real-life experience with the mustang -- it handles like a brick (except when you're invoking oversteer, of course, something i its hard to predicatbaly drift a stock mustang because of the suspension. personally avoid doing on the highway) and stopping power is inadequate even from 80mph. lots of accelleration -- but the rest of the car is not up to par. yes. when i think mustang, i think school-bus + f16 motor. in my mind the mustang should be fitted with a speed limiter at 80-90 or so. it just isn't safe, check out your local junkyard, mustangs outnumber other cars by a proportion way in excess of sales in i find it astonishing the cu or somesuchlike has not jumped on the mustang for poor brakes in relation to power. ford should at least standardize on the svo rear brakes for all 5.0's. i picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind. it didn't have to be the 911 -- it could have been the much cheaper 944 or one of several mercedes or audi models. all of these cars are fairly expensive -- but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed. this should be elementary. there are a few things to keep in mind about europe, since you brought it up. my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second-hand, but i believe the following to be true: 1. drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here. true of northern europe, latin countries are something else. 2. the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than kindof true. remember they were build by adolf in the '30's. they are here, and usually include animal fences. this makes them far more predictable than most us highways. 3. not all of europe is the autobahn. most places in europe have "autobahn" is the german word for freeway. other countries have different names for loose equivalents; autostrada, autoroute, motorway speed limits that aren't out-of-line with what we used to have in the us -- if my friends weren't lying to me they're typically not much higher than 120km/h. europe did seem on the brink of a 130kmh limit. it hasn't passed as far as i know. typical speeds in western europe are much higher than the us. law enforcement is negligible in my experience (comapred to the us) as there is no revenue enhancement motivation. the things you really notice are the higher speed differentials, and the more professional attitude to driving. you just never see two cars running parallel at 55.1 mph oblivious to all around them. i strongly suspect you won't find a lot of rabbit owners doing 120mph (nearly 200km/h) on the autobahn, but i could be wrong. some people you're wrong. gti's go this fast. just kind of noisy, not the ideal autobahn car. a lot of times you see cars being driven with the drivers foot on the floor. how do i know? - when you're not making any ground on the identical car in front of you! have no respect for their own lives. if something happens at 130-150 you're dead, but the same goes for much over 35. driving at high speed forces you to concentrate. i feel much safer driving 130+ on the autobahn than 60-80 in typical us traffic because most people seem to be awake. i've never seen any driver reading a book on an autobahn, i see it all too often in the us. it just doesn't *seem* fast after 30 minutes or so of aclimation. everybody drives that fast, no big deal. you certainly haven't convinced me. of course not. "speeding-is-bad. speeding-is-illegal. i-will-not-speed. i-love-big-brother." you had your mind made up if you think so you sure don't pay attention to my postings. jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos102889">
<answer instance="rec.autos102889" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 r&t had an article on cars of the sc1 ilk and they liked the civic ex, the escort gt and the mx-3 best of all, and the sc1 was way down the list except for braking. i just looked at that article; first of all, this summary is inaccurate; of 10 cars, the sc1 was 5th, right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift (!). as has been pointed out, it was a semi-silly comparison; the saturn was at least $500 cheaper than the mx-3 and escort (admittedly negligible, but an issue), and $1500 (!)less than the honda. the stated goal was a base under $12k; the honda was $500 over, while the sc2 at the same price was excluded. in other words, they let the best honda play, but not the best saturn. note that the saturn did beat the $13k i dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx-3 and escort and (maybe) even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you're talking about. all price comparisons i've seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102895">
<answer instance="rec.autos102895" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was following an example of the lh the other day, and noticed the fit between the tunk lid and the rear bumper. the gap was quite small on the left side, but much larger on the right. blech!!! ---mark 
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<instance id="rec.autos102896">
<answer instance="rec.autos102896" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i don't know why you are complaining about 130. alot of us have cars that can easily top that. most that go 130 are built to do it also and can handle the speed. why complain and just join in on the fast fun ? can i ask. have any of you been at the speed of 130 ? its a rush. driving 130 in a straight line is fine, you very soon become aclimated to it. it's only a rush when there are corners that you don't think you can make. on a clear autobahn, 130 is nothing. in the u.s. 99% of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise. sure, but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better than most of the roads here. a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at 60 will kill you at 130. don't get me wrong, i love to drive quickly and they say my probe will do 130, but that's 30 more than i've ever tried in it cause there isn't a decent enough piece of road hereabouts. mark hartman mhartman@umcc.umcc.umich.edu kalamazoo, mi bk405@cleveland.freenet.edu "i'm naked in the school!" - sleepyhead - 
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<instance id="rec.autos102898">
<answer instance="rec.autos102898" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 oh yeah, i had a 1975 1275gt mini, and even before i did anything to it, it could leave an mgb standing anywhere except, perhaps, on a long straight motorway run at 90+. people who bought mgb`s bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit. sportscar - not because they were great at anything. pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx-5 (miata) today. small fun and you can fool yourself (and a lot of other people) that you have the performance of many far superior (and much more expensive) performnace cars. derek tearne. -- derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz -- fujitsu new zealand -- some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental consequences of an accident with the new iridium enriched fusion reactor. "if it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102899">
<answer instance="rec.autos102899" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i wish i had the figures with me to back me up, but i recall statistics showing that women tended to have more accidents than men but the damage was generally quite minor. men had fewer but far more expensive accidents. the rate of total vehicle destruction was *significantly* higher for men than women, particularly in the younger male age groups. imho social considerations are probably the strongest influence here, possibly more so than any difference between the sexes. social influences often affect the type of car that's bought and the situations the car is used in, and the type of car and driving situations have a major effect on accident risk. thus if society expects you to buy a mustang and race it on the street you're more likely to do it, and our society expects that of males more than i agree with some of your social influences, such as driving conditions, but lets get real here. guys don't drag race becuase there expected too, we do it becuase its fun! (and we find out whose car is faster). guys drive different than women becuase there men. when a driver is driving 'unusually', i can usually figure out if it is a male or female driver without looking at the driver. social influences may give a person more reason to buy a vehicle that has a certain amount of character which he or she would like associated with. do you change your driving habits when no one is around? sheesh! i don't know what kind of women they have where you guys live, but there are some ladies here who will blow your doors off. or at least they will try to, but we just can't let the youngsters get too uppity with us old folks :-). my $.02. mark b. jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102901">
<answer instance="rec.autos102901" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'd like to converse with anyone who has purchased a 1993 honda civic about their experience. i'm new to the car buying game and would like to know what price i can expect to pay for a sedan after bargaining. thanks in advance, -- ellen 
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<instance id="rec.autos102902">
<answer instance="rec.autos102902" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i need to bring on my vw corrado for body work (i got hit). i was wondering if anyone has heard of any of these south bay body shops: akins collision center of santa clara - on reed st auto west collision - in san jose los gatos acura royal auto body - in sunnyvale thanks! 
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<instance id="rec.autos102903">
<answer instance="rec.autos102903" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also. i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut. it works great ! i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it's just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every 3000 miles. works for me, i must say. i did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons. i was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as i welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air-filter. oh come on, silly, all you have to do is cut a hole in your hood and put a tube there so you can get to the oil fill hole. what do you think all those big air intake things are for on those hot-rod cars? they're just for looks only...little does anyone know, they provide access to the oil-fill hole. well, over where we live, we have problems with vandals stealing people's wheels. those locking nuts didn't stop them. so to be safe and sure, i welded the lug nuts to my wheels together. it works, serious! i haven't had my wheels stolen yet! 
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<instance id="rec.autos102904">
<answer instance="rec.autos102904" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 this just a warning to everybody on the net. watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses. they can cause serious harm to you and your car. (just a cliff-notes version of my story follows) 10pm last night, i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville, i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck. we slowed down, but after looking back to see the vandals standing there, we drove on to the police station. she did get a good look at the guy and saw him "cock his arm" with something the size of a cinderblock, but i never saw him. we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road; if it would have hit her window, it would have killed her. the police are looking for the guy, but in all likelyhood he is gone. stuff deleted... i am sorry to report that in southern california it was a sick sport for a while to drop concrete blocks from the overpasses onto the freeway. several persons were killed when said blocks came through their windshields. many overpass bridges are now fenced, and they have made it illegal to loiter on such bridges (as if that would stop such people). yet many bridges are not fenced. i always look up at a bridge while i still have time to take evasive action even though this *sport* has not reached us here in fresno. greg_lewis@csufresno.edu photojournalism sequence, department of journalism csu fresno, fresno, ca 93740 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102906">
<answer instance="rec.autos102906" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 while not exactly a service incident, i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck. i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price. i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i'd be back that evening to pick up the truck. when i returned, i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me. when i finally got in there, everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers. he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax & license by about $150. this seems to be a popular scam with dealers. last month my brother bought a new audi 90 series quatro from a local dealer. they came back with the final price, tax and all, and he added it up for himself. there happened to be an extra $300 tagged on under the tax part. he pointed out their error and asked them to re-think their addition. they came back with the right price the next time. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102915">
<answer instance="rec.autos102915" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi, maybe someone can help me here... i am looking to buy this 1990 nissan maxima gxe for cdn$14000 right now. so its an automatic? don't know if us spec=cdn spec. for maximas. the car has 96000 km (or about 60000 miles) on it. a typical mileage for 1990 cars seem to be about 70000 km (or about 43k mi). the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards. (he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me.) being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars, i don't know what this could mean... is 96k km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items? or is this an indication that the car was abused? if it is the first set of brake pads on front, then this is fine. my car eats a set every 15k miles or so. the fact that he is replacing the muffler too is also ok. would other things break down or have to be replaced soon? the mileage is fairly low - but typical fwd stuff is cv joints. check the maintenance records with the manufacturers requirements for valve adjustments, timing belt changes and so on. the 60k mile service is often expensive, so make sure he has done everything. the seller told me that he used the car on the highway a lot, but, i don't know how to verify this... i've seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood, though. well, this is one of the commonly cited methods for identifying a car with highway miles. might check the gas pedal wear too. ask him how many sets of tires he has been through. a highway car might have squeezed by on 2 sets, a hard driven car 6-10 sets. although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept, it's currently out of warranty (a similarly priced '90 accord with 70k km will have 2 years or 30k km worth of warranty left) and i don't want to worry about paying for any repair bills... well, the maxima should be pretty reliable - but if its out of warranty you should get it checked out by someone knowledgeable first. stuff for japanese cars can be expensive. but, i also need a car for 5 people... when will the new maxima come out, by the way? 1995 model year, i believe. i would very much appreciate your input in this. please reply by e-mail (preferred) or post in this newsgroup. thanks! ryan kim university of toronto, eecg, computer graphics rkim@eecg.toronto.edu "do not weave between traffic cones at road works." - from the new british highway code (toronto star april 3, 1993) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102917">
<answer instance="rec.autos102917" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 does anyone know what happpened to the venerable v16t!? has claudio done any enhancement to it? are there any pictures of this beast i can ftp down somewhere? p.s. better, seen any rc model of this beauty? :) --autoweek had an article about the car within the past six weeks. it was the issue with the diablo vt awd on the cover. naturally, i don't remember the date of the issue offhand, but i can check it if anyone is interested. --aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu --why should i care? i'd rather watch drying paint. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102920">
<answer instance="rec.autos102920" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 no. reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up. they aren't bright enough to (typically) see by without the brake and tail perhaps instead of this silly argument about what backup lights are for, couldn't we agree that they serve the dual purpose of letting people behind your car know that you have it in reverse and that they can also light up the area behind your car while you're backing up so you can see? backup lamps on current models are much brighter than they used to be on older cars. those on my taurus wagon are quite bright enough to illuminate a good area behind the car, and they're much brighter than those on my earlier cars from the 60s and 70s. insofar as vettes having side backup lights, look at a '92 or '93 model (or perhaps a year or two earlier too) and you'll see red side marker lamps and white side marker lamps both near the car's hindquarters. those aren't just white reflectors. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102922">
<answer instance="rec.autos102922" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 have you driven a turbo converted mx5? now they are starting to perform! i've often thought a mazda rotary would go well in the xm5 too....anyone done it? no, but somebody's dropped a ford 302 v-8 into the miata, somewhat reminiscent of the shelby cobra. the car's obviously not as nimble as before, but it's supposed to have a near 50/50 weight distribution and handle very well. i'd sure love to drive one. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102923">
<answer instance="rec.autos102923" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have found a kit advertised for lowering the front end of an early mustang. installation envolves moving the upper a-arm and installation of a wedge shaped spacer between the a-arm and ball joint. apparently, shelby mustangs did a similair modification, but left out the spacer. i would be interested in feedback, pro or con, on such a modification. i'm no mustang head, but don't the early ones have a simple strut suspension (that is, with no upper a-arm)? just a strut going down to a lower control arm (single bushing: not an a-arm), with a tension/compression rod locating it in the forward/backward direction? anyway, simple strut suspensions like this can be lowered just by using shorter springs, cutting the springs, lowering the spring perch or shortening the strut below the perch. in each of these cases, the suspension geometry will suffer because the lower control arms will not be at the intended angle. a spacer placed between control arm and the bottom of the strut (roughly the height of the reduction) will restore the suspension geometry. imho, the kit that includes the spacer is the only way to go... --ken ken r. dye an optimist is a guy | lachman technology, inc., chicago that has never had | (708) 505-9555 x341 much experience | dye@lachman.com archy | 
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<instance id="rec.autos102924">
<answer instance="rec.autos102924" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> : i never saw the guy. the police said they thought the motive was to |> : hit the car, have us stop to check out the damage, and then jump us, |> : and take the truck. |> : please be aware of folks. and for your own good, please don't stop!!!! |> sad. this sort of thing is on the rise across the country. south florida |> is getting a lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers |> are being attacked (and some killed) in schemes similar to this. make that worldwide coverage. i know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida, and have now chosen another (non-us) destination. you expect this sort of thing, perhaps, in third world countries - but not the us! kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch 
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<instance id="rec.autos102925">
<answer instance="rec.autos102925" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 wagon, which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe. wagon has an automatic, it's slower. could be due to the rear-end ratio also. usually automatics have different rear-ends than manuals, from my limited experience anyways. david w. hwang, m.d. // university of michigan medical school 1050 wall street, suite 10c // telephone: 313/663-5557 ann arbor, michigan 48105 // internet: david@ganglion.ann-arbor.mi.us 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102929">
<answer instance="rec.autos102929" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just bought a 1962 t-bird and would like any info on a club in and around the the b.c. coast. eric thomas 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102932">
<answer instance="rec.autos102932" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 there are a few things to keep in mind about europe, since you brought it up. my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second-hand, but i believe the following to be true: my knowledge about driving in the u.s. is also second-hand, but i think i can correct your statements about our autobahn: 1. drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here. oh yeah, that would be paradise... in fact, you can forget it. from all i've heard from my u.s. relatives, drivers esp. here in germany are much more agg- ressive, but not disciplined. one of my relatives, a l.a. resident, hired a car at the nuernberg airport and went about 18 miles to our home. he said then that he grew about 1 year older during this ride and swore he'd never drive a car in germany again (this was in 1982 and he kept his promise - the situation now is even worse as effect of the increased volume of traffic). what you mean by `better disciplined' should perhaps be considered `cautious due to fear': when driving around here, you always *have* to take into consideration that the majority of the other drivers absolutely relies on you: they expect that nobody fails or sleeps; many of them exploit this by driving as fast as their car can go (of course only where that is allowed, you might think - dream on :). so any mistake you make is a very high risk to your health - and if you're ex- posed to such a situation from your very first day as a driver, you learn to handle it - or you lose... that's the way i and most people i know experience our traffic situation - whether you think this is pleasant or efficient is up to you; i think we handle a very high volume of traffic and that at high speeds with modest (compared to the volume) and decreasing rates of lethal accidents - otoh, more and more people (esp. women) dislike driving (because they feel overtaxed and threatened) and each accident is one accident too much. 2. the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here, and usually include animal fences. this makes them far more predictable than most us highways. better designed and maintained, may be - but animal fences are very rare. auto- bahnen and many other streets have guard-rails (i hope that's the right word - a plank made from thick steel sheet fixed on uprights; it's about 2 feet high); those guard-rails are designed for keeping vehicles on the road. smaller animals can crawl under the plank, bigger ones can easily jump over it. the point is that esp. larger animals are very rare in germany; they tend also to be very timid. accidents caused by animals are a neglegible danger. 3. not all of europe is the autobahn. most places in europe have speed limits that aren't out-of-line with what we used to have in the us -- if my friends weren't lying to me they're typically not much higher than 120km/h. you're right (there are speed linits even on the major part of the autobahn) - but the attitude towards driving (see above) seems to be very similar to that in germany (i've been in france, switzerland, italy, austria, spain, belgium, the netherlands) - besides that, you really can't rely on the residents abiding the local speed limits. i've got quite a lot of practise (~120k miles) and i'm used to travel at 130 mph (fyi, with a car even smaller than a rabbit), but i consider driving on the highways round paris or milano really a thrill... i strongly suspect you won't find a lot of rabbit owners doing 120mph (nearly 200km/h) on the autobahn, but i could be wrong. ... sorry, but you'll find quite a lot rabbit-class-car (or even smaller, mine is a peugeot 205) owners going that fast; small cars with much hp are very `hip' over here - and most people buying such cars aren't afraid to let them run. ... some people have no respect for their own lives. i disagree; the size or weight of a car is rather irrelevant. formula-1 cars weigh less than 700 kg and the drivers have a chance to survive accidents at 130 mph or higher - otoh when crashing against a solid object at 130 mph, it makes no difference whether you sit in a porsche, a mercedes, a tank or on a bicycle: your're dead. stefan dalibor (dalibor@immd3.uni-erlangen.de) "...and now for the next case in kangaroo court, i accuse you of being the reincarnation of adolf hitler. i don't think that mere denials will be sufficient -- you will have to submit to examinations by a parapsychologist that i personally select..." perry metzger (pmetzger@shearson.com) in article 2074 in news.admin.policy 
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<instance id="rec.autos102933">
<answer instance="rec.autos102933" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth. what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is "the best selling new car namelplate in the us" (i think i have this near verbatim). lee iaccoca's statistics dept. would have been proud of that sentence. note that the corolla/prism are also new designs... but hey are not new "nameplates." i guess nissan doesn't even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas, or there would be no "nameplate" qualifier. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102934">
<answer instance="rec.autos102934" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 give out the address, i'll drive by and take a look myself, then post. stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta, ga. home of the braves! 
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<instance id="rec.autos102935">
<answer instance="rec.autos102935" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have had good luck with my ranger and yokohama 371 s+m tires. the tires have been wearing well and even the few times i have hauled heavy loads they have done well. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102939">
<answer instance="rec.autos102939" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello netters! i'm visiting the us (i'm from sweden) in august. i will probably rent a chevy beretta from alamo. i've been quoted $225 for a week/ $54 for additional days. this would include free driving distance, but not local taxes (baltimore). they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included, but i doubt that, 'cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what's included in the base price. but on the other hand he didn't rent it from alamo. does anyone have some info on this? is $225 a rip-off? probability that i'll be needing more insurance? is the beretta a good rental car? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102940">
<answer instance="rec.autos102940" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ashtrays and cigarette lighters. these should be an *option*. gm, at least, is heading in that direction. one of the post-sale questions they asked me was if i'd like the choice of a cigarette liter or an accessory plug, and another whether i'd like the choice of an ashtray or a cup holder. the '93 geo storms have the cigarette lighter vs accessory plug option (which did not exist in the '92 i bought) -- i'm not sure about the ash tray vs cup holder. it's a step in the right direction. the ashtray does make a convenient change-holder so it's not completely useless. jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos102941">
<answer instance="rec.autos102941" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 you can be sure they wouldn't do it if it wasn't to their advantage. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102942">
<answer instance="rec.autos102942" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 rear hatch has no padding on corners when up. i'm waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner. horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center (personal preference) the latter is probably because of the air bag. it's pretty much takes up all the space where you'd expect to find the horn. all toyotas have airbags with a real horn. come on, how hard can it be to put a little pressure plate there. i hope toyota doesn't follow everyone else and make the horns little buttons that i wouldn't want to fumble for. john nielsen magnus consultant ______ ______ __ __ "to you baldrick, the renaissance was just /\ __ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \ something that happened to other people, \ \ \/\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \ wasn't it?" - the black adder \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\ 
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<instance id="rec.autos102946">
<answer instance="rec.autos102946" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the restriction could have to do with the car being a convertible. a lot of paronoid laws were passed concerning convertibles in the 80's. these states may require greater rollover protection than the capri affords. thatch harvey % thatch harvey % % uucp: (no longer valid) domain: thatchh@hplsla.hp.com % % hewlett-packard lake stevens instrument division % % lake stevens, wa % % (206) 335-2083 merkur xr4ti, suzuki gsx1100g, % % prince sr3 d sports racer % 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102947">
<answer instance="rec.autos102947" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you want a summer without rain, you're in the wrong place. you must not have been here a whole year yet. keep the rain-x handy my friend. % thatch harvey % % uucp: (no longer valid) domain: thatchh@hplsla.hp.com % % hewlett-packard lake stevens instrument division % % lake stevens, wa % % (206) 335-2083 merkur xr4ti, suzuki gsx1100g, % % prince sr3 d sports racer % 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos102948">
<answer instance="rec.autos102948" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i guess i wasn't clear enough here. i said the roads were designed for speeds of 80 or so and still be safe. the current 55-65 will add a saftey they were designed for speeds of upwards of 80 - i forget the exact spec - but for military vehicles. that's 80 in a 1958 dodge powerwagon. not 80 in a 1993 ford taurus. ah yes, the 58 powerwagon. now there was a vehicle that today's cars can't touch in terms of high speed road holding ability! :-) 
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<instance id="rec.autos102949">
<answer instance="rec.autos102949" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 be worthwhile? or how about something like the old mgb with new technology? just think about it - the old style with upgraded safety features and perhaps a natural gas operated engine for less than 10k. i think it would go over well. what is your opinion?????? al h well, the mgb is currently in production for the english market, built by rover. it now has a v8, improved suspention, and a slightly updated body. too bad it's only available in gb and would set one of us back about $42,000+. graham e. thomas * blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology * blah blah blah blah blah internet: grahamt@oit.gatech.edu * blah blah blah blah blah 
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<instance id="rec.autos102951">
<answer instance="rec.autos102951" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi all. a while back i was asking for info about a few different models, the grand am being one of them. response was generally favorable; one thing often repeated was "go for the v6 for some real power". point well taken, but...does anybody have any input on the 4 cylinders (both the standard ohc, and the "quad 4")? the high-output quad 4 delivers 175 hp (185 for the wf41 quad 4), whereas the 3.1l v6 offered in the grand am delivers 140 hp. i own a beretta gtz ooppss...the v6 in the grand am is the 3.3. litre, not the 3.1. the 3.3 is a downsized version of buicks 3.8 litre v6. the 3.1 v6 goes in the beretta and corsica. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102953">
<answer instance="rec.autos102953" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 thanx to all those who responded, particularly those "never driven an xxx but here's what it's like:" guys... ok, we all know that new-age at's are great in traffic, and do a satisfactory job in acceleration when you keep your foot buried in the carpet. my question regards downshifting. not downshifting to pass (at's are good at this now), but manually moving the lever to 3, 2, or 1 at a point where you would downshift a manual-- e.g. approaching a red light, or a curve, or just tooling around a parking lot in 1st or 2nd w/o shifting. this is why i'm still a manual-trans bigot-- the downshifting for deceleration seems so natural. when i try this in an automatic, the tranny doesn't seem to understand what i want. addendum-- isn't it great, after downshifting while approaching that red light, when the light goes green, and you're already on-cam (or the turbo's already spooled up!) -- zippppppppppp! hagen. (hagenjd@ac.wfu.edu) i have a grand am with auto and quad4. around the gear selector there is a plastic strip which covers the space so you can't see inside. anyway...i took the cover off and cut the end of this long strip to a specific length, the strip curls up into a cirlce at one end inside. anyway, by doing this the strip can't feed into the lip that circles it,,,,so...i can push button, pull down and the gear shifter will only go back to 2 from drive,,,no accidental hitting first. i drive around town in 2 to keep the revs up. shift to drive above 50 and pull down to 2 when coming up to lights..if i want. if i am eating food...i drive in drive. there are probably aftermarket shift kits that will accomplish the same thing. porsche's tip-tronic automatic can be driven like an auto...or put into +/- mode. tip up...upshift...tip down... downshift. of course there is an override so you don't redline the engine. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102954">
<answer instance="rec.autos102954" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 anybody is going anywhere. so, i block the would-be passers. not only for my own good , but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it. ah, we are looking for good people just like you. we are a very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit, passing on our right, and riding our tails, while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated, certified cruise controls, while keeping the respectful 1.5 car length distance/10 mph speed. how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the (5.5 * 1.5)8.25 car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving 55 mph? finally you have an option. we are a totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good, for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it, bless their souls. for a paltry $10, you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting(c.r.a.p), a non-profit, members only, society. but, but,but, there is a slight hitch, the initiation rite. to be a full fledged member of this exclusive club, you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area, keep the correct 1.5 car lenth/10 mph speedand i know this can be difficult with those morons around, not let anybody pass you, not in the next lane, not in the slow lane, not in the breakdown lane, not nowhere. for a complete list of acceptable interstates and times, send $5. and by the way, over 90% of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely, absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests. as a testament to their virtues, they will give members 90% off the initial consultation fee. feel free to drop me a line at your earliest convenience and remember, only speed kills! of course you are a bunch of arrogant lawyers who know whats best for the rest of us. you are doing such a wonderful job with our judicial system, getting all the criminals off, i bow to your superior intellect. not to mention the fees you collect from us poor slobs who get tickets from speeding state police officers, so you can soak is when we go to court. i just love lawyer jokes! don't you? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102956">
<answer instance="rec.autos102956" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ashtrays and cigarette lighters. these should be an *option*. why make it an option. you can use the ashtray to store coins and other small things which come in handy. use the cigarette lighter as an electrical outlet for all types of handy gadgets (cd players, vacuum cleaners, flashlights, etc.) i don't want to pay extra for these things and if you don't use them, they don't hurt you. i use the ashtray to keep change and other items in. i converted the cigarette lighter into a volume control knob for my in trunk subwoofer! larry __/ _______/_ keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov / \ _____ __ _____ \------- === ----------- / ____/ / / /__ __/ \ / ___ / / ___ / / / / ____ | | / \/ /__ / | / /__ __/ /__ / \ / /___ \_______/ /_____/ /______/ ====oo - 1990 2.0 16v - ---------------- fahrvergnugen forever! -------------------- the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn't understand anyway! 
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 writes... #>could we plase cease this discussion. i fail to see why people feel the need #>to expound upon this issue for days and days on end. these areas are not #> meant for this type of discussion. if you feel the need to do such things, #> please take your thought elsewhere. thanks. exactly my point. there is a lot of hostility to, and from, teenagers. if you follow the news for the northwest usa, you will have heard that a group of 20-year old boys (barely out of the teens, certainly their outlook was developed during their teens) just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in a car in the seattle area when her mother (who was driving) honked her horn at the car with the boys in it. this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent's. doesn't your heart just go out to that poor mother? teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime. maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are. at the same it seems sad that people lose all perspective when they here about a case of violence by teenagers... for a little perspective: how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children, seniors, the homeless? did you read about all the kids at stanford who spent their spring breaks helping out in inner city areas? what about the hundreds of volunteers ( teenagers and others) who worked to clean up the mess after the rodney king riots in la? have you gone to your local high school play recently? attended the school orchestra performances? have you seen how many kids volunteer to pick up trash, plant trees, do walk-a-thons? how many kids have tried to sell you stuff to benefit organizations they belong to? how many girl scout cookies have you bought? how many chocolate bars for good causes? the media picks up on all the anomalies, the sensational... what about the wonderful teenagers all over the place who work hard at school, get good grades, go to college (or to work) and make a real contribution to our society? all humans are teenagers at some time in their lives! mother theresa was a teenager and so was geoffrey dahmer. it is really sad to see so many people who buy the sensational reporting of the media as some kind of reflection of the world today! it is a reflection of what is happening on the outer fringes of our society and nothing more... 
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 is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on a new car? what features are important? what features are unimportant? that is a question that can only be answered by yourself and where you live. if you live in a place where crime is apparent, then it might be a good idea to get one simply as a deterrent. however, if a professional thief wants your vehicle, its as good as gone no matter what you do. but to slow down any thieves it would be a good idea to get the basic options. that would be: 1) ignition kill or fuel cut-off 2) a flashing red led these two are basic to a decent alarm system. to slow down the criminal some more, get a steering wheel lock. that should be sufficient to persuade the thief to find an easier target. but, then there's always car-jacking. why is life so confusing? i hope i helped somewhat. jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university, dayton, oh e-mail: jyow@desire.wright.edu 
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 a local dealer is advertising "no negotiation necessary!" make you wonder... 
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 "jeremy g. mereness" <zonker+@cmu.edu> says: can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe... ala how they do in the long run, repair records, reliability, mileage, etc? i am fixing to buy a car in the next few months aiming toward something a little bigger than a typical small car and with a little more power. i am considering the mx-6, probe, accord, corolla, and the 240sx. the probe is the youngest of the bunch, thus my interest in opinions. but every magazine and ratings book places it as an excellent value. btw, the 240sx is rear-wheel drive and is due for a re-design for 1994. thanks in advance! while i don't read normally read this group, i was looking for valentine radar information (sigh, maybe in the faq) and came across your posting.. i bought a '93 probe gt with the pep 263a last july (now at 9500 miles) after debating over the sentra se-r/nx2000, mx6, mr-2, stealth, prelude, and celica. check this month's consumer reports for previous probe records. my criteria: a "fun" car with abs, airbag, over 130hp, and less than $25k. i thought about a turbo, but checking with insurance people ruled that out. the tri-star cars (eclipse/talon/etc) were out since they don't have an air bag. ditto for the mustang(also no abs). the se-r/nx2000/m20 fell into the pocket-rocket category. a good used car buy. the mx-6 was almost there but rolled more than i liked. i didn't like the prelude dash/instrumentation at all. too weird for me. the mr2 has a much smaller non-passenger space than i needed, so out that went. the celica was "ok" but underpowered when loaded with options (and somewhat overpriced too) in non-turbo form. i never considered the 240sx since it didn't have an airbag. i did look at it for its rwd virtues but that's it. the corolla never entered my mind. i should have looked at the mitsubishi vr4/dodge stealth more. since my list was exhausted, i bought the probe. :-) the car design is different than earlier years, so it's too early to see its reliability so far. for what it's worth, my comments: my dislikes: shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal. headlights have "stuck" up a few times (weather?) air conditioning broke ~4000 miles (pressure cycling switch) condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn't drain completely. crammed engine; little hope for do-it-yourselfers (typical) parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn't like sharp driveways and speedbumps (typical). assembly gripes: tape on radiator, screw fell out of dash, seat seams not stitched properly. hopefully just a fluke. ford only gives 1 key with the car. c'mon ford, spend an extra few pennies! rear hatch has no padding on corners when up. i'm waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner. horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center (personal preference) tires fling dirt/mud onto side of car my likes: engine (design/valves/sounds/smoothness/power/mileage/torque) -- definitely #1 handling (very good for fwd; understeer only at limits) transmission (the 5 speed is a must) usable instrumentation (lovely readable analog everywhere) very little torque steer at full power (much better than the '90 sho i drive) stability at 100+mph (high gearing though) low cowl (good visibility in front) heated outside mirrors (nice in fog, never tested in freezing weather) abs/air bag (see above) rear seats fold down (i have few rear seat passengers so a trunk not important) no shake/rattle noises when going over bumps/potholes (still!) tires: 225/55vr16 goodyear eagles (70% left; hoping for 30k :-) as you can see, i'm primarily interested in the engine. while it doesn't have the uummmph of a big-liter car or the turbo rush, the big selling point for me was the all-aluminum 24 value 2.5 liter engine. the overall car is a good buy for the money. that market segment hasn't changed much since july (prelude vtec, honda del sol??). i drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads, and most noticable thing is that the probe's suspension doesn't like potholes. when you test drive one, find a potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable. if you have 3+ passengers, by all means bring them along too. they'll find that they have no room in the back and you'll find that the car rides differently (if that's "better" is up to you). also, there's a lot of glass around you which i wasn't expecting; the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer. my back seat passengers (now very few) complain about the lack of ventilation; you may want to consider that when combined with the heat. i've heard that the exhaust system has trouble, but mine works fine. leather and the keyless entry system weren't available when i got the car so i can't comment on them (i got the car before it was officially announced). i prefer cloth to leather anyway. i wouldn't want this car in the snow: the suspension is too rough for the inevitable surprise potholes, tires aren't meant for snow, and the seats assume that you're not wearing lots of thick clothing. rain is much better: water generally beads off the windshield at freeway speed, the windshield wiper controls are easy and understandable, and i barely hydroplaned once with the eagles (and i was really trying). there is also a definite lack of cup holder/small storage places. the gt has map holders below the speakers in the door, but they're rigid plastic that could fit two cassettes or cd's max. the center console/storage bin/arm rest has *1* cup holder and the back of the front seats have a cloth "pouch" but that's it. no change holders. quite a let-down from the sho. and the probe is definitely not a people-mover car or an econo-box car! lastly, don't store wet car covers in the back. the foam will soak the water up and the result will *not* smell pleasant :-(. nathan@sco.com |jeremy mereness | support | ye olde disclaimer: | |zonker+@cmu.edu (internet) | free | the above represent my| | fast project, cmu-gsia | software| opinions, alone. | |b.s. mechanical engineering, cmu| | ya gotta love it. | | every silver lining's got a touch of grey | this year marks the 200th anniversary of the bill of rights mx: nathan@sco.com "no comment"/they're coming to take me away, ha-ha! -- napolean xiv 
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<instance id="rec.autos102964">
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 this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway. snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass. four or five cars were hit. there were several serious injuries, and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks. i don't recall if she made it, but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren't holding out hope that she'd live. what the hell is happening to this great country of ours? i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such, but 20 pound rocks??! has our society really stooped this low?? erik velapold society, as we have known it, it coming apart at the seams! the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is "no big deal". kid's see hundreds on murderous acts on tv, we can abort children on demand, and kill the sick and old at will. so why be surprised when some kids drop 20 lbs rocks and kill people. they don't care because the message they hear is "life is cheap"! well people fortunatly or unfortunatly , only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life (among developed nations). i am an american but i was raised in europe, where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into, or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees. of cource there will be some nutcases, but thats extremely rare. i.e. in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying. in germany , you can walk the sidewalks at 4.00 am and not even look behind your back, at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to a sparkling cleen. whoever of you have been there you know what i am saying. i dont have any easy answers but if we as a nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere. of course these postings sould be in soc.culture.us but if we reduce crime here it 'll mean less car insurance rates ,thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars. (now my posting is rec.autos.tech revelant). vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications. sig under development ... 
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<instance id="rec.autos102966">
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 |> why crawl under the car at all? i have a machine i got for my boat that |> pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube. it does an |> excellent job and by moving the suction tube around, you can get more |> old oil out than by using the drain plug. i think i paid $25 at e&b marine. |> the oil goes into a steel 3 gal can - wait until it cools and decant into |> your favorite device. i use soft drink bottles. easy to take them down to |> the local oil recycle center. this does sound good, but i heard it tends to leave more grit, etc in the oil pan. also, i've been told to change the old when it's hot before the grit has much time to settle. any opinions? bryan welch amateur radio: n0sfg internet: europa@vnet.ibm.com (best), bwelch@scf.nmsu.edu everything will perish save love and music.--scots gaelic proverb disclaimer: it's all opinion. everything. so there. 
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<instance id="rec.autos102968">
<answer instance="rec.autos102968" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the quality of autobahns is something of a myth. the road surface isn't much different to a typical tx freeway. they are better in terms of lighting, safety, signs, roadmarkings etc. they light the highways in texas? funny, everywhere else i've been they only light 'em at junctions. i won't even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant. than most of the roads here. a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at 60 will kill you at 130. don't get me wrong, i love to it would have to be quite severe. i don't recall any us freeway, without road damage warnings, that i would regard as unsafe at 130 in any decent, well damped car. i suspect you have very limited experience -- us freeways vary dramatically, particularly between states. i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where 130 would be very optimistic in any car. i'm not sure what you call "quite severe" in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i84 through ct would be considered so. they're hard to take at 85mph. that's not the only interstate i've seen with such deviations, but it's one i drive texas is pretty much an edge-case -- you can't assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition, such flat terrain, and such wide-open spaces. it just ain't so. jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos102970">
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 well, i'm afraid the time has come; my rice-burner has finally died. i'd always promised my wife that we would do a scandanavian tour when my car died and pick up a volvo in sweden, drive it around and then import it home. can anyone give me 1) advice on feasibility and relative costs 2) references where i might learn more 3) personal experience? please email 
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<instance id="rec.autos102971">
<answer instance="rec.autos102971" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 anybody got any good/bad experience with selling their car through one of those car hunters? i'm selling a 1991 dodge stealth r/t and i was contacted by this company called the markham group based out of illinois. they said they have 7-10 buyers in my area interested in my car or they wouldn't be talking to me. they talked to me for a good 20 minutes asking everything about my car and said they could sell it no problem. they guaranteed that if they didn't sell my car in 75 days, i would get my money back ($389) and since i charged it, i'm protected by federal law which states that if i'm not satisfied, i would get a refund (which is true). they federal expressed all the paperwork to me which had a contract stating their policy about the 75 days and such. i called up the bbb in illinois and they do not have a file on them which is good news. so they definitely are a legitimate company but so far, it's been over week and i have gotten nothing. so how effective are these types of companies? anybody care to share their experiences? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102975">
<answer instance="rec.autos102975" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend's 89 ford probe. every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood/carpet cover on the trunk. i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm. a few qs: 1) is this a common problem? 2) where are the drain holes located for the hatch? thanks for any info. tom szeto "no! not those peanuts! the ones on the tszeto@sneezy.ts.stratus.com bottom....ggnuuaahuuhh" #include <disclaimer.h> - homer simpson 
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<instance id="rec.autos102980">
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 in a previous article, (eric youngblood) says: [race car stuff deleted] back to the f1 stuff for a second, note that the `auto' tranny in f1 _still_ shifts at the driver's command, not some preselected schedule. the driver still controls the shifting, not the transmission. |> now, there is no dispute that in production cars, automatics are |> inherently more lossy than manuals. that is in theory. my point all |> along is that whatever mechanical advantages a manual has over an |> automatic can very easily be lost by a driver who isn't skillful or one thing that gives an automatic an advantage at launch is the fact that it has a torque converter vs a clutch. i know this sounds strange but, a torque converter multiplies the engine output when launching. it functions as a sort of limited continuously variable transmission. typically you get a torque multiplication of 2 to 3 times depending on the stall speed. i have yet to see a torque multiplier installed on a production automobile. such systems do exist, but none are presently installed in production autos that i am aware of. these are commonly called viscous drive cvts or fluidic amplifiers. contrasted to a clutch which merely slips when feathered (result is no tq mult) what the convertor _does_ allow is for the engine to be closer to its torque peak during the launch before a clutched car can fully engage it's driveline. chevy proved it many years ago with the '70 camaro (ets and terminal 1/4 mile times were close enough tpo be identical for 4 speed and auto cars). note that this is also the major reason that an auto car can get away with fewer gears than a manual, the slip in the convertor makes up for the fewer ratios (and before everyone starts yelling about the proposed 5 sspeed autos soon to be out, note that some manufacturers are using 6 speed manulas now). once past lauch however, the converter begins coupling and the tq multiplication effect is reduced, but by then you should be on the cam. al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<instance id="rec.autos102984">
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 : > help!!! : > my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. : fyi, just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they : thought were the best cars for '93. in the convertible category, the : honda civic del sol achieved this honor. : the one down-side i see with the car is its interior, it looks : inexpensive and dull. i own a del sol and i must vouch for the interior. i really looks snazzy when the top is off. i looks a lot better in person than on the television. (i saw that motorweek as well. needless to say i was smiling a bit by the time it was over ...) :*) watch out for that darned "convertible tan" tho... dspalme@mke.ab.comm 
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<instance id="rec.autos102986">
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 we are working on gas-solid adsorption air-con system for auto applications. in this kind of system, the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas. anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread, we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology. ok, i'll bite. how is this supposed to work? 
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<instance id="rec.autos102987">
<answer instance="rec.autos102987" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have a 86 chevy sprint with a/c and 4doors. it's odometer turned 90k and the sensor light started blinking. i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor. he said, it is to be changed every 30k, but since i bought the car when it had 77k, i don't know if the same thing happened at 30k and 60k. he quoted $198 for the part and $50 to install it. the part cost $30 outside, but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts. he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything. if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint, i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed. also, did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer's help. also, what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction. any help would be greatly apprecisted i sold my '86 sprint last april with 95k on it. i'd driven it since the previous july, putting 20k miles on it. the sensor light used to light up regularly, starting about 5k miles after i bought it. my brother and i rebuilt the engine but used all of the original equipment, so i suppose the sensor could have used replacement. performance (hah, if you could call it that) did not change. perhaps emissions increased, but how much emissions could a ca-registered 3 cylinder engine produce? that was a neat car, i held the engine block easily in one hand! has anyone ever driven the 'turbo' variant? just curious... adam edwards awds_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos102988">
<answer instance="rec.autos102988" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, ip02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (danny phornprapha) says: i have $30,000 as my budget. i'm looking for a sports or gt car. what do you think would be the best buy? (i'm looking for specific models) = "hey! you programmers out there! | danny phornprapha = please consider this: | ip02@lehigh.edu = bugs are another endangered earth | lucc student konsultant = species needing your protection. | work: (215) 758-4141 for an all out sports car, i'd go for the rx-7 without the sports suspension (which is too stiff.) for a little more practicality and more comfort, the nissan 300zx turbo is a good buy. and for a good dose of luxury, the lexus sc300 is perfect (with a manual transmission of course.) however, the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it's looks, the performance is supposed to be great, almost race car like. i don't particulary like the mitsubishi 3000gt's or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren't very nimble handlers for a sports car. a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography, ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur, malaysia. "the mind is the forerunner of all states." the only thing about the 300zx turbo and new supra is they're about $10k or more over his budget... " be good, and you will be lonely" mark twain 
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<instance id="rec.autos102989">
<answer instance="rec.autos102989" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver (is that one mag or two? =b^), and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say... i'm looking at the following three suv's; anyone who's driven all three have any strong opinions? ford explorer toyota 4runner nissan pathfinder currently i'm leaning toward the toyota, 'cause i've had big success with toyota trucks in the past, and 'cause i think it's the best looking of the three. but i thought i'd see if anyone has any strong opinions.... thanks! karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac@cisco.com -or- batman@cisco.com 415-688-8231 dod# 1999 fj1200 "shovels and rakes and implements of destruction" -arlo guthrie 
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<instance id="rec.autos102994">
<answer instance="rec.autos102994" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car i saw the other day. it was a 2-door sports car, looked to be from the late 60s/ early 70s. it was called a bricklin. the doors were really small. in addition, the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body. this is all i know. if anyone can tellme a model name, engine specs, years of production, where this car is made, history, or whatever info you have on this funky looking car, please e-mail. ---- brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst ---- 
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<instance id="rec.autos102997">
<answer instance="rec.autos102997" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver (is that one mag or two? =b^), and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say... depending on how you plan to use your suv, i might recommend also browsing trailer boats and one or more of those pickup, shotgun, and 4wd magazines. the car rags mostly seem to consider recently graded pea gravel to be offroading and ten sacks of redwood chips to be a bedload. considering that most of these suvs seem to be used mostly as robust station wagons, that's probably not a bad approach, but if your applications are more demanding, pick your information sources accordingly. of the three vehicles on your short list (explorer, 4runner, pathfinder), i'd recommend the 4runner as being closely based on a rather robust pickup and the explorer for being comfortably carlike. don't know much about the pathfinder. good luck, --joe "just another personal opinion from the people's republic of berkeley" 
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<instance id="rec.autos102998">
<answer instance="rec.autos102998" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition, body-wise, but he transmission has seized up on him, so it hasn't run for a while. does anyone have any info on these cars? the engine compartment looks really tight to work on, but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it. thanks! darren gibbons gibbonsa@sfu.ca this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me. i'd guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett, rather than the bigger manta - but i could easily be wrong. i think the later kadett's were sold here as buick opels. chintan amin llama@uiuc.edu chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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<instance id="rec.autos102999">
<answer instance="rec.autos102999" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 g'day people, are there any mr2 owners or motor-head gurus out there, that know why my mr2's engine sounds noisy? the mr2's engine is noisy at the best of times, but not even a nice nose - it's one of those very ugly noises. i do an oil change every 2-3 months, and for about 2 months the engine noise sounds relatively quiet during driving and idling. at around the 3 month mark, after an oil change (i've been tracking this very thoroughly for months now) it starts to get that very disgusting noise, not so much during driving, but more so during idling. what's its problem? also.. i don't know if it's just me, but if noticed a little performance drop. it just hasn't got the acceleration it used to. any help/tips would be appreciated!! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103003">
<answer instance="rec.autos103003" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition, body-wise, but he transmission has seized up on him, so it hasn't run for a while. does anyone have any info on these cars? the engine compartment looks really tight to work on, but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it. thanks! darren gibbons gibbonsa@sfu.ca this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me. i'd guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett, rather than the bigger manta - but i could easily be wrong. i think the later kadett's were sold here as buick opels. i think the manta is the european name for the "gt." i'm pretty sure that the only kadett's sold here were/are the pontiac lemans. i think the gt is just an early '70s to mid '70s manta. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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<instance id="rec.autos103004">
<answer instance="rec.autos103004" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. gibbonsa@sfu.ca this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt. neat cars, fun to drive. sold through buick from 196? through 1973 (if i remember correctly). i believe it was in '72 that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models. parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models. parts in general are not too difficult to find. at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including a brand new (not remfg) long block. either a gt or a kharman ghia (hmm that spelling looks hosed) will be my next project. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103005">
<answer instance="rec.autos103005" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my 90 integra was hit hard in the 3/25 hailstorm in austin, tx. the insurance company cut me a check for $6600 ($100 deductible) last week. is this a record? anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet? rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled, so that would be about $10k. john steczkowski stecz@pencom.com the constitution grants you the right to life, liberty, and the *pursuit* of happiness. it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone *will* be happy. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103007">
<answer instance="rec.autos103007" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 we are working on gas-solid adsorption air-con system for auto applications. in this kind of system, the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas. anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread, we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology. ok, i'll bite. how is this supposed to work? better still, years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used "air". it was called a rovax. the unit worked very well, the short coming was the seal technology. where is it today? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103008">
<answer instance="rec.autos103008" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 better still, years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used "air". it was called a rovax. the unit worked very well, the short coming was the seal technology. where is it today? as i recall from reading posts here a while back, rovax (rovacs?) died because it was larger and noisier than the competing cheap r12 systems of it day. probably a case of bad timing. i think the system would have a better chance today now that r12 systems are on death row, but investors may be hard to come by a second time. jon hacker | get the os/2 2.1 march beta cd-rom caltech, pasadena ca | for $20 --- call 1-800-3-ibm-os2 hacker@tumbler-ridge.caltech.edu | read about it in comp.os.os2.beta 
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<instance id="rec.autos103011">
<answer instance="rec.autos103011" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 monthly posting regarding the buick grand national / regal t-type mailing list. this list is for owners and other parties interested in the 82-87 buick grand nationals, regal t-types, gnxs, and other turbocharged regals. discussions include technical information and parts sources. particular emphasis is given to performance enhancements and racing. to join, or ask, about the mailing list, contact: gnttype-request@srvsn2.monsanto.com scott keller +1 314 537 6317 the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell@bb1t.monsanto.com ka0wch packet: ka0wch@k0pfx.mo.usa.na keeper of the buick grand national / regal t-type mailing list 
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<instance id="rec.autos103013">
<answer instance="rec.autos103013" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> in article <c5h6f8.ldu@news.rich.bnr.ca> jcyuhn@crchh574.nosubdomain.nodomain |> > that's not the clutch you're hearing, its the gearbox. early shos have |> > a lot of what is referred to as 'gear rollover' noise. you can generally |> i have one of the first shos built, and _mine_ doesn't make |> this noise. geez wharfie, do you have to be so difficult? mine was built in december '88, which qualifies as pretty dang early, and it most certainly grinds away. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103015">
<answer instance="rec.autos103015" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side (or both sides!) of some tacky luxury cars? some of 'em aren't fake (if you're talking about the continental kit, named after the lincoln continental, the first car to sport one). i personally would _love_ to have a '56 t-bird with a continental kit (and the supercharged v-8 :-); that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built, imho. i'd go for a '39 lincoln continental if i could find one. sad part is that edsel ford designed it, and look at the abortion they named after him. ain't no justice. okay, i'll admit it looks nice on the t-bird (as a previous owner of 1967 and 1968 thunderbirds, i'm biased anyway). 
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<instance id="rec.autos103016">
<answer instance="rec.autos103016" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 | >>it's a big aftermarket business. almost no cars come from the factory with | >>vynal any more, and any fake "convertible" job _definitely_ came from some | >>aftermarket place. what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for | >>bad taste | >how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the | >trunk or side (or both sides!) of some tacky luxury cars? | some of 'em aren't fake (if you're talking about the continental kit, | named after the lincoln continental, the first car to sport one). i | personally would _love_ to have a '56 t-bird with a continental kit | (and the supercharged v-8 :-); that is one of the most beautiful | cars ever built, imho. | james the continental may have been the first "modern era" auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one. various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles, both us and foreign. right. in the thirties both buick and packard had two spares mounted in wells in the front fenders. of course that was back when the front fenders were long enough to provide room. there were a couple of other marques that did this as well, but memory fades. ken franklin they say there's a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it's better but i say it ain't gwrra i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod #0126 the sinners are lots more fun, y'know only the good die young 
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<instance id="rec.autos103018">
<answer instance="rec.autos103018" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 society, as we have known it, it coming apart at the seams! the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is "no big deal". kid's see hundreds on murderous acts on tv, we can abort children on demand, and kill the sick and old at will. so why be surprised when some kids drop 20 lbs rocks and kill people. they don't care because the message they hear is "life is cheap"! i think this is getting a little overheated. highway robbers have been a part of life since the middle ages at least. it's human nature to look at history through rose colored glasses, but random acts of violence have been a ceaseless part of our heritage. overall, life is better now than it ever was then. it's just that random individual acts of violence have been historically significant, and record keeping in the past was never enough to retain them all. steve wall 
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<instance id="rec.autos103021">
<answer instance="rec.autos103021" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was wondering if anyone can shed any light on just how it is that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage? what kind of memory is stable/reliable enough, non-volatile enough and independent enough (of outside battery power) to last say, 10 years or more, in the life of a vehicle? i'm amazed that anything like this could be expected to work for this length of time (especially in light of all the gizmos i work with that are doing good to work for 2 months without breaking down somehow). mk48t02 from thomsom. it has a timekeeper (clock) and 512 bytes of nvram which has a lithium battery backup. the battery has a life of ~10 years of poweroff operation. installed in a car it could be left powered on continuously and not draw much current. the battery would only be used when your auto battery was dead or had been removed. side question: how about the legal ramifications of selling a used car with a replaced odometer that starts over at 0 miles, after say 100/200/300k actual miles. looks like fraud would be fairly easy - for the price of a new odometer, you can say it has however many miles you want to tell the buyer it has. in california they have a line on the transfer of ownership form which states that the odometer mileage is correct. if incorrect you are required to fill in what you know (or guesstimate) to be the correct mileage. if you lie on this form and are caught you can be prosecuted and the buyer can sue you for the value of the mileage differential. faster horses younger women older whiskey more money! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103022">
<answer instance="rec.autos103022" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 les bartel's comments: sorry i can't help you with your question, but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a/c units. i have a frost-king or frost-temp (forget which) aftermarket unit on my cavalier, and am quite unhappy with it. the fan is noisy, and doesn't put out much air. i will never have an aftermarket a/c installed in any of my vehicles again. i just can't trust the quality and performance after this experience. let me add my .02 in. i had a a/c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a/c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine. i have talked to other people that have had the same result. don't know if this is just a probable with ford or what?? ernie smith i agree, *never* have the dealer add anything to your car. if you want a/c make sure it is factory installed(honda's maybe excluded, many can't be bought with a/c installed at the factory, but i think, maybe, they actually use all the needed parts for a true factory install when they put one in...as in bigger radiator etc...or are designed properly for this in the 1st place), anyway, my point is the dealer installed a/c won't be anywhere near as good as factory *and* the service bums will mess up your car when installing it... scratches, screwdriver holes in seats...parts not reinstalled correctly or with all the screws etc. i know a guy who has been service manager at a gm dealer for 18 years...he said never have a dealer add anything to your car... except, maybe, floormats... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103025">
<answer instance="rec.autos103025" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the taurus sho (for those who can get it straight, it is s-h-o as in super high output, not sho as in show) has a yamaha 3.0l dohc (24 valves) sho v-6. having spoken to technical staff from ford many times, i can assure you that internally at ford this car is always called the taurus "show" or just "the show". as in long "o" sound. i still refer to it as the "s-h-o", however, because it sounds better to me. i assume many purist fans and owners prefer using the ford lingo. tim gardner 
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<instance id="rec.autos103028">
<answer instance="rec.autos103028" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it is actually simple in principle. porous adsorbents like zeolite and activated carbon can adsorb gases evaporated from the adsorbate (water or methanol, etc.) giving the cooling effect. upon being heated, the gas-saturated adsorbent bed will give off the gases which are then to be condensed. this forms the adsorption refrigeration cycle. the only problem is that the cop is very low (0.2 -0.6). max g q lu, phd | internet: mgqlu@ntu.ac.sg division of thermal enginerring | bitnet: mgqlu@ntuvax.bitnet school of mpe, nanyang technological university | phone: (65) 7994818 nanyang avenue, singapore 2263 | fax: (65) 7911859 
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<instance id="rec.autos103031">
<answer instance="rec.autos103031" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, crh@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.dbp.de (christian huebner) says: i think he's talking about a different form of rush. evidently, it's fun to be terrified. but hey, if you want that kind of rush, try bobsledding. you may only get up to 80 or so, but it makes 130 in a car feel like a stroll in the why should a good driver be terrified at 130mph? the only thing i fear going at 130 are drivers, who switch to the left lane without using either rear-view-mirror or flashers. doing 130 to 150 ain't a rush for me, but it's fun and i get where i want to go much faster. but in one point you are quite right. if you are terrified at 130 you should better not drive that fast, or you'll be a hazard to others. btw, before you flame me, read my e-mail address. i know what i'm talking about, as i live in germany. chris crh@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de not a flame, just a point: i'd be scared at 130 here, not because i feel _i_ or my car couldn't handle it, but because of exactly what you said: drivers who are stupid. like the ones who are doing 130 also, and so they pull in right behind you at maybe 1-2 car lengths....oh yeah, real smart... this scares me in cities at 50. when i can't see enough of the car to make it recognizable, they are following too close. and when i see them doing this and reading a newspaper.....*sigh*...this is why america has 55-65 speed limits: our drivers are too dumb to realise that reading the paper should be done at breakfast, or work, not in their my thoughts.. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103033">
<answer instance="rec.autos103033" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 well, i guess i know for sure what i meant, and it is this: i don't know where you drive, but around here freeways are often clogged solid with large packs of semis, trucks, and cars of all descriptions. when i close on one of these rolling clusterf***s on the highway, i have no desire to add my vehicle to this rolling accident looking for a place to happen. if there were any way to pass it i would be passing myself, however i can't. as i posted before, all it takes is a blown tire, or some moron tramping on the brakes to turn this pack into a cloud of shredded metal, flying glass, and burning vehicles. i want to maintain enough free space between myself and this mess to at least have a minimal chance to avoid a mass crash. that means maintaining a clear space between me and it. however, there is no end of shortdriving morons who are dying to pass so they can add themselves and their car to the bodycount. that wouldn't bother me so much except that after letting enough of these morons pass me and glue themselves to the pack ahead, my interval is filled up. trying to back off further does not work because the road behind me has filled up, trapping my car right into an ever increasing pack. now, if there was any slight possibility that there was a lane open ahead, i'd be glad to move over. but, there usually is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere. so, i block the would-be passers. not only for my own good , but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it. just an comment: i don't like it when people decide what's good for me... if you think you're going to decide anything for me, you'd better be carrying a badge and a gun. who made you capable of determining if there is "no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere"? why do you find it necessary to add to the problem instead of just minding your own business? if someone is minding their own business, i will give them all the room they want, and i'll try to make things easy for them, even letting them in in front of me if they ask politely (with a directional). on the other hand, if someone like you decides they want to block me and be a general asshole, you can bet your ass that i'll make life as miserable as possible for you, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else who's minding their own business. they have a phrase to describe someone like you: self appointed traffic police. just mind your own business and stay in the right lane where you belong. as a rule of philosophy, i don't feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity, but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips, too. h.h. mayo / _ \ '85 mustang gt bob pitas / /ush 14.13 @ 99.8 bpita@ctp.com / /| \ up at ned, epping, nh (cambridge, ma) "" - geddy lee (in yyz) disclaimer: these opinions are mine, obviously, since they end with my .sig! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103035">
<answer instance="rec.autos103035" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i take the electrodes of the amp/ohm/volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe. then, symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots. no cheating guys! both hands must be used! i have just a couple of questions about this technique. first, what firing order should i use? do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky? left hand or right? and secondly, i have a 12cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for. any suggestions? /andy how about your two big toes? and while you're at it, why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out? domain: bobml@msd.measurex.com bob lagesse, senior software engineer uucp: ...!uunet!mxmsd!bobml measurex/management systems division voice: (513) 825-3931 x303 1280 kemper meadow drive fax: (513) 825-5393 cincinnati, ohio 45240, usa 
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<instance id="rec.autos103037">
<answer instance="rec.autos103037" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i don't know about where you are, but here in california false of odometer readings is a criminal felony. if you can substantiate this, you need to report that dealer to the local authorities. you should consult with a lawyer to tell you what civil action you can take as well. keep in mind that you will have to prove that the dealer was aware of the change in the dashboard. brian donnell 
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<instance id="rec.autos103038">
<answer instance="rec.autos103038" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition, body-wise, but he transmission has seized up on him, so it hasn't run for a while. does anyone have any info on these cars? the engine compartment looks really tight to work on, but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it. thanks! darren gibbons gibbonsa@sfu.ca this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me. i'd guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett, rather than the bigger manta - but i could easily be wrong. i think the later kadett's were sold here as buick opels. i think the manta is the european name for the "gt." i'm pretty sure that the only kadett's sold here were/are the pontiac lemans. i think the gt is just an early '70s to mid '70s manta. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** the manta was a two-door sedan in the us. it had a 1900 engine. was sometimes referred to as an opel 1900. manta's are also ve hot and fun cars too. | |\/| __ -=> mliggett@silver.ucs.indiana.edu <=- (mliggett@iugold.bitnet | * | |/\|| 'junk' collector, toys r us kid, antiauthoritarian, and fan of * | frogs, iguanas, and other herps. | 
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<instance id="rec.autos103039">
<answer instance="rec.autos103039" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am in the process of looking for a half decent aftermarket sport exhaust for my 1981 bmw 320i. so far, i have found a pacesetter exhaust for $219 and an ansa exhaust for $190 (canadian funds). i was wondering if anyone could tell me anyhting about either of these exhausts or any other possible exhausts that i may be interested in. my main priorities are a decent horse power increase (5-30%) and a nice low note to go along with that added power. i was also thinking of looking into both remus and leistritz exhausts.has anyone got anything to say about these? i am mainly looking for the muffler only but if anyone can find a good deal on a whole kit i would be willing to go after that. i also would like to know how much these would cost me in the states.please mail me back if you have any information. mike welker 
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<instance id="rec.autos103040">
<answer instance="rec.autos103040" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just had my 41 chrysler painted. i was told to refrain from waxing it and to leave it out in the sun!! supposedly this let's the volatiles escape from the paint over a month or so (i can smell it 15 feet away on a hot day) and lets any slight irregularites in the surface flow out, as the paint remains a little soft for a while. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103044">
<answer instance="rec.autos103044" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ok, i'll give you a few reasons: 1. neither car was designed to turn at those speeds. 2. neither car was designed to stop quickly from those speeds. 3. safety mechanisms were not designed for impacts at those speeds. 4. an uncontrolled environment leads to unpredictable circumstances where you might need to turn or stop with no notice. do you, by any chance own an sho or have access to one, such that you would have any idea what it is designed for or how it handles? just wondering... tom pickett tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com sho goze 
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<instance id="rec.autos103049">
<answer instance="rec.autos103049" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 does that mean that they're gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103051">
<answer instance="rec.autos103051" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i heard the diesels are considered cleaner-burning than gas engines because the emit less of: carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and oxides of nitrogen. (co, hc, nox). but they can put out a lot of particulate matter. i heard something about legislation being discussed to "clean up diesel emissions". is there anything in the works to install "scrubbers" for diesels? how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars? would it be any different than a catylitic converter? i'd assume easier, since we're removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses. let's hear people's opinions... -- vel natarajan nataraja@rtsg.mot.com motorola cellular, arlington hts il -- 
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<instance id="rec.autos103056">
<answer instance="rec.autos103056" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my 90 integra was hit hard in the 3/25 hailstorm in austin, tx. the insurance company cut me a check for $6600 ($100 deductible) last week. is this a record? anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet? rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled, so that would be about $10k. i guess it either had the top down, or the hail ripped through the top, as you could not do $10k worth of hail damage to a miata body. john steczkowski stecz@pencom.com the constitution grants you the right to life, liberty, and the *pursuit* of happiness. it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone *will* be happy. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103059">
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 i'm about to buy a new car and finance some of it. since i paid cash for the last car i bought i did not have to worry about whether or not i had a good amount of insurance on it because of a bank loan. i just put the amount that i wanted (not what a bank would have wanted). friends are telling me that banks require some kind of insurance on the car to protect it since it is collateral on loans. is this true? can that insurance be gotten as part of my other insurance? i assume i don't have to pay a dealer for extra insurance over my regular car insurance. am i correct? i hear about accident/health type insurance at the dealers and i am pretty sure these are just money makers for them. i just want to verify that i don't _have_ to buy these at all. or any other types of extras. what do i have to pay for? car, tax, license. anything else? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103060">
<answer instance="rec.autos103060" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 recently, i saw an ad for the altima which says that it is the best seller for the past 6 months, is that true? i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth. what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is "the best selling new car namelplate in the us" (i think i have this near verbatim). lee iaccoca's statistics dept. would have been proud of that sentence. what they mean, i think, is that of all "totally new models", i.e. cars never sold before in any form, the altima is the best seller, thereby eliminating accord, taurus this is from the same people who make the claim that our minivan is outsellin theirs.... implying that the nissan quest/ murcury villager are out-selling the chrysler mini-vans.... not only is this not true at all, but it was a stupid claim to make... the commercial was part of the introduction campaign for the vans. kind of a bold statement to make when you haven't even sold one yet, eh? and i thought buick and oldsmobile where bad. shame on you nissan and mercury! any other interpretations? does anyone has anyhting regarding the # of cars sold for the past 6 months? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103064">
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 in a previous article, callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (james p. callison) says: in a previous article, wrat@unisql.uucp (wharfie) says: that shows how much you know about anything. the brakes on the sho are very different - 9 inch (or 9.5? i forget) discs all around, vented in front. the normal taurus setup is (smaller) discs front, drums rear. one i saw had vented rears too...it was on a lot. of course, the sales man was a fool..."titanium wheels"..yeah, right.. then later told me they were "magnesium"..more believable, but still crap, since al is so m uch cheaper, and just as good.... i tend to agree, tho that this still doesn't take the sho up to "standard" for running 130 on a regular basis. the brakes should be bigger, like 11" or so...take a look at the ones on the corrados.(where they have braking regulations). well, let's see...my t-bird sc has a computer-controlled adjustable suspension, 4-wheel abs disks (11" vented front, 10" (?) rear), 3-point rears also vented belts, sturdy passenger compartment, aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change, 210 hp/310 ft-lb supercharged 3.8l v6, 4-wheel independent suspension (plus limited-slip differential), with a top speed in excess of 130mph, and rides on v-rated tires (i have yet to find 225/60-r16s in any other speed rating). is that "up to standard"? if not, why not? james, i really hate to do this, but try reading the damn posts! then you shouldn't've done it. try answering the damn question. i am well aware of the fact that there was no mention of the sc in there. never was a t'bird mentioned. the discussion was about sho's and 'stangs not being up to spec. i do not know about t'birds. i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff. this does not kn any way disencourage* me from wishing to own one, nor does it make it a bad car. it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes, as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit (if memory serves right, which it may very well not) and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it. well, my point was that the sc and the sho both have very similar characteristics (front and rear disks (abs on the sho?), high output v6, 4-wheel independent suspension, very good aerodynamics, 3-point harness, fat rubber, and 130mph+ top speed). if one of them is up to standard (and i think the sc is), but the other isn't, then why is that? no flamage, just curiousity. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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<answer instance="rec.autos103068" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 eliot is right about 2.2 liter engine in the second (and last) generation mr2's. but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr2. if it's a first generation car (like my '85), it has 1.6 liter engine (or perhaps same engine with a supercharger, if it's '87 -'89). the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard. i don't know the relevance of his observations about oil changes, my simply makes noise. not all that annoying, mind you. but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear :-) mike.s sorry 'bout that - mine is a '91 model non-turbo 2.0. (with abs and revised suspension (whatever revised means)). i'm in australia, so we always seem to get the versions without extras which the europeans and americans get as my query is, - why does the noise get noticeably louder about 2-3 months after an oil change. i just find it a bit wierd that this happens. is it the oil i'm using (mobil 1) or is it the engine (the 3s-ge version/model) ie. gets noiser the older the oil is (i'm only guessing). its not annoyingly distressing or anything, but just slightly puzzling. 
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<answer instance="rec.autos103070" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, dwjz@bnr.ca (doug zolmer) says: |> as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while |> here in europe they are rare??? just wondering..... in many of our cities, there are traffic signals every 100 feet (unsynchronised, of course (well here in ottawa anyway)) and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot. also, most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually (gee, i gotta co-ordinate my two feet on the clutch, brake _and_ accelerator, and i gotta steer, shift _and_ operate the signals (optional) and radio with my two hands... duh... it [i agree wholeheartedly!!] can't be done). also, most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment, so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money. not sure about there in ca, but here in us, the manuals are quite often the standard equipment. of course, finding a car with one might be hard, but if you read the sticker on the window, there is usally an additional 2k or so tacked on for that lousy tranny. so you actually are paying more, just that it's sometimes hard to find one that is equipped "standard". (this applies to most cars, but not to the luxoyachts..eg caddilac, licolns, etc..) 
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<answer instance="rec.autos103072" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |>newsgroups: rec.autos |>path: llpost!ll.mit.edu!xn.ll.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!cka52397 |>from: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (oriolefan@uiuc) |>subject: re: opel owners? |>date: tue, 20 apr 93 19:45:02 gmt+5:00 |>message-id: <c5t3b2.dg@news.cso.uiuc.edu> |>references: <gibbonsa.735339907@sfu.ca> <c5sxi4.j9b@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1993apr20.223410.10923@cactus.org> |>sender: usenet@news.cso.uiuc.edu (net noise owner) |>organization: university of illinois at urbana |>lines: 30 |>>>>i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? |>>>>well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, |>>>>with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. my |>>>>friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition, |>>>>body-wise, but he transmission has seized up on him, so it hasn't run |>>>>for a while. does anyone have any info on these cars? the engine |>>>>compartment looks really tight to work on, but it is in fine shape and |>>>>i am quite interested in it. |>>>>thanks! |>>>>darren gibbons |>>>>gibbonsa@sfu.ca |>>> this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? |>>sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me. i'd guess that this is on the same |>>chassis as the kadett, rather than the bigger manta - but i could easily |>>be wrong. i think the later kadett's were sold here as buick opels. |>>craig |> i think the manta is the european name for the "gt." i'm pretty sure |>that the only kadett's sold here were/are the pontiac lemans. i think the |>gt is just an early '70s to mid '70s manta. |>chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu |>*******sig under construction hard hat area******** the gt was based on the kadette chassis. it was built model years 1969-1973. the manta came out in the 1974 model year and was a 4 seat coupe. matthew r. singer mit lincoln laboratory (617) 981-3771 244 wood street singer@ll.mit.edu lexington, ma 02173 
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<instance id="rec.autos103073">
<answer instance="rec.autos103073" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |>newsgroups: rec.autos |>path: llpost!ll.mit.edu!xn.ll.mit.edu!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!swrinde!dptspd!tamsun.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!convex!convex!maynard |>from: maynard@convex.com (mark maynard) |>subject: re: opel owners? |>message-id: <1993apr20.231748.26273@convex.com> |>sender: mark maynard |>nntp-posting-host: trojan.convex.com |>organization: convex computer corporation, richardson, tx., usa |>references: <gibbonsa.735339907@sfu.ca> <c5sxi4.j9b@news.cso.uiuc.edu> |>distribution: rec.autos |>date: tue, 20 apr 93 19:17:48 gmt+5:00 |>x-disclaimer: this message was written by a user at convex computer |> corp. the opinions expressed are those of the user and |> not necessarily those of convex. |>lines: 22 |>>>i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? |>>>well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, |>>>with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. |>>>gibbonsa@sfu.ca |>> this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? |>> chintan amin |>sounds more like an opel gt. neat cars, fun to drive. sold through |>buick from 196? through 1973 (if i remember correctly). i believe it |>was in '72 that there were some engine mods made such that parts |>were not interchangeable with the older models. parts are thus much |>harder to come by for the later models. parts in general are not |>too difficult to find. at one time jc whitney carried some stuff |>including a brand new (not remfg) long block. either a gt or a |>kharman ghia (hmm that spelling looks hosed) will be my next project. |>mark in 1972, they lowered the engine compression so that it would run on regular gas (not to mention the addition of emission controls). the '72 also added pop-out rear quarter windows... alot of parts are available for the gt from c & r small cars in ct and used from bill daley's opel parts in ma.... matthew r. singer mit lincoln laboratory (617) 981-3771 244 wood street singer@ll.mit.edu lexington, ma 02173 
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<instance id="rec.autos103076">
<answer instance="rec.autos103076" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, jkjec@westminster.ac.uk (shazad barlas) says: the best auto-shifters on the street (and not the track) are those from porsche... they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn.... a few years back a was in a 200sx auto (you guys call it a 240sx [without turbo]) and was going round a corner.... i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards! the other drivers seemed quite amused ;-) ....shaz.... you are sure that what you call a 200sx we call a 240? just curious.. we also have a nissan predacessor (sp) to the 240 called a 200, which came in turbo and nonturbo. but i don't think we've ever had a 240 turbo...just curious...(btw, i'm in the us, if that matters..) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103077">
<answer instance="rec.autos103077" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm looking for information on opel cars. now you ask, which model? well, the sad truth is, i'm not entirely sure, but it's a two-seater, with roll-over headlights, hard top, and really sporty looking. my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition, body-wise, but he transmission has seized up on him, so it hasn't run for a while. does anyone have any info on these cars? the engine compartment looks really tight to work on, but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it. thanks! darren gibbons gibbonsa@sfu.ca this would be the manta, would it not??? sold through buick dealers in the mid '70's as the price leader???? sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me. i'd guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett, rather than the bigger manta - but i could easily be wrong. i think the later kadett's were sold here as buick opels. i think the manta is the european name for the "gt." i'm pretty sure that the only kadett's sold here were/are the pontiac lemans. i think the gt is just an early '70s to mid '70s manta. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** the manta was a two-door sedan in the us. it had a 1900 engine. was sometimes referred to as an opel 1900. manta's are also ve hot and fun cars too. | |\/| __ -=> mliggett@silver.ucs.indiana.edu <=- (mliggett@iugold.bitnet | * | |/\|| 'junk' collector, toys r us kid, antiauthoritarian, and fan of * | frogs, iguanas, and other herps. | funny, the manta's over in europe look surprisingly like the opel alluded to by the original poster. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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<instance id="rec.autos103079">
<answer instance="rec.autos103079" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 here is a press release from the u.s. department of energy. energy secretary hails president's plan for alternative fuel to: national desk, environment and energy reporters contact: larry hart of the u.s. department of energy, 202-586-5806 washington, april 21 -- secretary of energy hazel r. o'leary today said president clinton's executive order on alternative fuels will make the federal government a "driving force behind efforts to increase the availability of both alternative fuel vehicles and fuel supplies." president clinton signed the order today, which calls for federal purchases of alternative fuel vehicles in numbers over the next three years at least 50 percent higher than those called for in the energy policy act of 1992. president clinton also announced that texas land commissioner gary mauro will head up the federal fleet conversion task force to advise o'leary on implementation of the executive order. "i am delighted that i will be working with gary mauro to make this happen," o'leary said. "as land commissioner, gary mauro has helped make texas a national leader in converting the state fleet to alternative fuels, and has been a tireless proponent of natural gas vehicles in speeches across the country." the task force is to issue a report within 90 days recommending a plan and schedule of implementation. "the department of energy and all of us in government must lead by example if the option of alternative fuels is going to become a practical, affordable choice for fleet owners across the country," o'leary said. "increased use of domestically-produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution while creating jobs. we believe that energy efficiency, protecting the environment, and a healthy economy are complimentary goals." o'leary said that plans call for the department of energy to coordinate the agencies' five-year purchase plans, help with funding for extra purchase or conversion costs, and work with gsa to encourage development of the fuel infrastructure needed to make fleet conversions practical. under the order, the department of energy will also be working with states, local governments and industry to coordinate vehicle purchases and encourage manufacturers and fuel suppliers to make alternative fuel vehicles and alternative fuels more widely -30- canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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<instance id="rec.autos103080">
<answer instance="rec.autos103080" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'd like to hear stories on experiences with the hyundai sonata. i know consumer reports has trashed them but the people i know that have them swear by them. they also haven't had the problems with them that consumer reports claims. i haven't driven one yet. i have driven a '93 hyundai elantra (which consumer reports also trashed) and was very impressed with it. the local hyundai dealership ("no-haggle" policy) is offering an elantra gls w/ power moonroof for $13163. they also have a sonata base, w/ sunroof for $13997. i know my preference is for a sonata gls w/ sunroof and 4-spd automatic. i'll decide which engine i prefer after test driving both the 4-cyl and the v6. the sonata is also offering a $1500 rebate. hmmm, that's another question. is the following scenario the appropriate manner to handle "negotiation"? 1. make offer 2. subtract rebate from offer 3. talk trade 4. subtract trade from offer to get final price rhonda gaines, systems/network administrator | internet: gaines@fibercom.com fibercom, inc., p.o. box 11966, | uucp: ...!uunet!fibercom!gaines roanoke, va 24022-1966 | fax: 703-342-5961 phone: 703-342-6700 or 800-423-1183 x291 | 
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<instance id="rec.autos103081">
<answer instance="rec.autos103081" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 you are sure that what you call a 200sx we call a 240? just curious.. we also have a nissan predacessor (sp) to the 240 called a 200, which came in turbo and nonturbo. but i don't think we've ever had a 240 turbo...just curious...(btw, i'm in the us, if that matters..) what we currently know as the 240sx, is known elsewhere as a 200sx. graham e. thomas * blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology * blah blah blah blah blah internet: grahamt@oit.gatech.edu * blah blah blah blah blah 
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<instance id="rec.autos103082">
<answer instance="rec.autos103082" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 nice theory. too bad the mr2's never came with a four cylinder over 2.0 liters. more like 1.6. or did they? were the nonturbo mr2ii's 2.2 or some such? foot in mouth again, drew. the first generation mr 2's were 1.6's which were very smooth. i'd be real surprised if the original poster was talking about a 1st generation car. the second generation cars were 2.2 for the non turbo and 2.0 for the turbo. i drove the non turbo 2.2 and calling it unpleasant is to be kind to it.. i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders, must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design..like porsche's 3.0 i4... wrong and wrong. mitsubishi owns the patent, which has since expired which is why everybody with a shred of integrity is putting balance shafts into their big 4's.. the notable exception is nissan.. and only for the us market suckers. i guess we need to write to c&d and start telling them to publish graphs for engine vibration over rpm. then you'll see usenet discussions of the form: engine a has peak vibrations 3 db less than engine b, therefore engine a is better than engine b. 1/2 :-) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103083">
<answer instance="rec.autos103083" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i of course car safety is important.. i for one used to think that these guys are going way ott with their airtbags (sorry del button dont work) and side impact bars and crash zones and (the list goes on) just tpo make the car heavbier (and all its penalties) ... bur recently i had a little accident (on my bike) and not as bad as john's ..... but after the accident - it made me realizer i should have worn a helmet (my mom always insistede i should... i was more concerned about my hair style)..... a few days agi - i read a report in which the old rea.. rea shit - renault 5 had an accident and its roof caved inwards and crushed the occupents heads... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103086">
<answer instance="rec.autos103086" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 this isn't anything new. back in 1985 i was driving under a high overpass at night on i-805 in san diego when i caught a glimpse of someone on the overpass. as i passed under a rock slammed against the metal between the winshield and right front window. my girlfriend was in the seat next to it. i called the police from the next exit, but i doubt if they were found. about five years ago in san diego someone was put into a coma from a brick being thrown through his sunroof as he was driving and subsequently crashed. i don't think he ever came out of the coma, and i haven't heard anything about it for a couple years. i know that this isn't the group for it, but since you brought it up, does anyone have any idea why they haven't "bombed" the waco cult? probably because there are many children there. also the minor fact that other than defending themselves from 100 some people attacking them they haven't threatened or attacked anyone outside the compound in years. being a promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds for a mass murder of koresh and his followers. sorry for posting this to this group, but i thought the previous post needed a rebuttal. if you follow-up to this portion please cross-post and direct follow-ups to a more appropriate newsgroup. ====== boyd johnson nosc!spectra.com!johnson san diego, california ====== intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups. my opinions certainly don't match those of my employer. 
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<answer instance="rec.autos103090" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i take the electrodes of the amp/ohm/volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe. then, symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots. no cheating guys! both hands must be used! i have just a couple of questions about this technique. first, what firing order should i use? do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky? left hand or right? place your hands flat on a table, and arrange the firing order from left to and secondly, i have a 12cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for. any suggestions? well, you have friends don't you??? 12 cylinders might be more excitement than one person can take.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103091">
<answer instance="rec.autos103091" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> from article <eabu288-140493210752@dialin33635.slip.nts.uci.edu>, by eabu288@orion.oac.uci.edu (alvin): |> > is there going to be a bmw 328 in 1994? |> --could be. isn't the 2.5 liter six supposed to be enlarged to 2.8 liters |> in the not-too-distant future? makes sense, since the new mercedes benz engines go from 2.2l-4 to a 2.8l-6. nothing in between. btw, i beleive the numbers on those mb engines are 156 and 225 hp respectively. the one-upmanship in hp might induce bmw to create a larger six. also, the 2.6 190e has lagged behind the 3-er 2.5 for some time wrt hp. i am sure the bavarians wouldn't want to be "shown-up" by the schwabians. ps- those mb engines haven't been released over here yet. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103092">
<answer instance="rec.autos103092" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if i hear someone screwing with my car (ie, setting off the alarm) and taunting me to come out, you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me. it's not the screwing with the car that'd get them shot, it's the potential physical danger. if they're taunting like that, it's very possible that they also intend to rob me and/or do other physically harmful things. here in houston last year a woman heard the sound of someone in her garage, so she went to investigate with a gun in her hand. she found a guy in the process of stealing her bicycle. she quite reasonably asked him to stop. he refused, began taunting her, and as the woman was quoted in the police report, "he told me to go ahead and shoot him, so i did." the moron survived, and no charges were filed against the woman. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103095">
<answer instance="rec.autos103095" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've a 89 mazda 323 with about 42000 miles on it. recently i do not get a good feeling of the road, esp. on a wet pavement when driving the car. it feels as if the car is wandering and there is no grip on the road. the tires are the original ones and have threads on them (passes the penny head test). i had the shocks and struts and alignment checked and things are fine. however i feel like that i dont have the grip of the road and feel as if the car is wandering esp. on turns. any help in this is appreciated. thanks. two shots at it: (1) check the tires again - if you can see the wear bars, you're down to problem area (and some tires pass a penny test between the bars - that's no guide at all). your problem in the wet is call hydroplaning. you may not have enough tread left to channel water out from under the tire - so it goes fishy on you as it lifts off the road. (2) tires age. in particular, soft tire compounds get harder as you put them thru more heat cycles. harder compounds don't grip as well as soft ones. effect is very noticable on tires that get very hot very often, such as in competition, but it hits all tires. bob benson 
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<instance id="rec.autos103097">
<answer instance="rec.autos103097" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 | >>it's a big aftermarket business. almost no cars come from the factory with | >>vynal any more, and any fake "convertible" job _definitely_ came from some | >>aftermarket place. what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for | >>bad taste | >how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the | >trunk or side (or both sides!) of some tacky luxury cars? | some of 'em aren't fake (if you're talking about the continental kit, | named after the lincoln continental, the first car to sport one). i | personally would _love_ to have a '56 t-bird with a continental kit | (and the supercharged v-8 :-); that is one of the most beautiful | cars ever built, imho. | james the continental may have been the first "modern era" auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one. various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles, both us and foreign. the 1941 lincoln continental was the first car to sport the "continental kit." the continental kit is not to be confused with ye olde outside mounting bracket; a continental kit is a very specific ornament/storage compartment. (the 1941 continental has a neat trunk; it looks rather like a laundry hamper, imho. :-) james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103098">
<answer instance="rec.autos103098" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 wagon, which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe. wagon has an automatic, it's slower. could be due to the rear-end ratio also. usually automatics have different rear-ends than manuals, from my limited experience anyways. you'll have fun looking for the rear-end gears on an sho--the taurus is a front-wheel-drive vehicle... i went back and checked the article again; the sho wagon is quicker than the sho automatic, but significantly slower than the real sho. why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me; if you can't handle a stick, you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers. that is not to say that there aren't real drivers who can't use the stick (eg disabled persons), but they aren't in any position to use an sho anyway. i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all "performance-type" cars (like the 5.0l mustangs, camaros, and the like) we'd cut down on the number of accidents each year. autos are fine for sedate little sedans, but they have no business in performance cars, imho. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103101">
<answer instance="rec.autos103101" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 this kind of behavior is what i was shocked by in my 'experience'. for crying out loud, how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business? again, i don't expect sales people to bow, scrape, and grovel in my presence but i sure don't expect to be abused either. i was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other 'negotiating' sessions i overheard in neighboring sales cubicles. evidently, their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way. there must be a lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate. a couple of months ago i went to a dealership to test drive a car. afterwards, we sat down to discuss prices. i explained that i wanted a car just like the one i drove, but in a different color. he said he could get one exactly like i wanted from the dealer network within a day. we then negotiated a price and signed the deal. next day, i get a call. he explains that they goofed, and they had neglected to take into account a price increase. (the last price increase had occurred over 4 months prior to my visit.) if i still wanted the car, i would have to fork over another $700. as an alternative, they would honor the price if i bought the car i test drove (which had been sitting around for 6 months and had a few miles on it). i said goodbye. this was a good example of how they can lowball you and still cover their butts. it's too bad more people don't demand honesty or these types of dealers would no longer be in business. the next dealership i went to was straightforward and honest. first thing the salesman said was, "lets's see what you have for dealer cost and work out how much profit i should make." the deal went through with no problems. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103102">
<answer instance="rec.autos103102" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if i'm not mistaken, altering the odometer is *illegal*. furthermore, i surmise it'll be tough to alter bmw's odometer if you got at it. some of the newer bmw's have electronic odometers making it even more tamperproof. on the cars mentioned - 3 series from the late 80's the "electronic" odometer is really a mechanical drum type odometer, that is driven by pulses from a speed sensor on the rear axle. these pulses are converted into mechanical pulses that turn the odometer - and speedometer. no way changing or erasing an eprom is going to change the mileage reading. it also means the odometer is just as easy (or hard) to change as any other mechanical odometer. on the other hand it is a bit easier to disconnect the speed sensor and run the car with no speedometer or odometer reading...a simple switch will do the job. it also will disable the speed limiter, which will enable the car to reach it's full speed. ;-) alan l. peterman (503)-684-1984 hm & work al@qiclab.scn.rain.com it's odd how as i get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103103">
<answer instance="rec.autos103103" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 on wednesday morning, another driver decided to illegally turn left in front of me, doing great damage to my car (honda civic). i have yet to pay off the car, and the body shop says the insurance company wants to total the car. i haven't been able to get in touch with the person handling my claim, so i checked on some things: 1) my payout is $3700.00 2) blue book retail is $5650.00 3) loan value is $4450.00 4) trade-in value is $4000.00 could anyone give me any advice on what i should/could do if the insurance company does not give me a reasonable amount for the loss of the car. james baker baker@dfwvx1.dallas.geoquest.slb.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103105">
<answer instance="rec.autos103105" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the idea here is to list pointless options. you know, stuff you get on a car that has no earthly use? 1) power windows add as you wish... regards, charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --unknown net.person 
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<instance id="rec.autos103106">
<answer instance="rec.autos103106" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, gwm@spl1.spl.loral.com (gary w. mahan) says: why should a good driver be terrified at 130mph? the only thing i fear going at 130 are drivers, who switch to the left lane without using either rear-view-mirror or flashers. doing 130 to 150 ain't a rush for me, but it's fun and i get where i want to go much faster. in defense of the drivers, who are in the right lane. here in the states, people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of 50+mph. i don't think this is because they are stupid (of course, there are exceptions), they are just programmed because of the 55mph limit. do you (in the states) when you look in the rear-view always calculate future positions of cars based on a 50+ speed differential. dont get me wrong, i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right, i slow down a tad bit. if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car, to recognize the speed differential, i would be the stupid one. just to satiate my curiosity, why would this make you the stupid one? it seems to me, everybody should be aware enough of what is going on. you do not need to calculate the future position. you need to look at your mirrors a little more. if you glance around, you will be able to tell how much faster than you the car is going. maybe not precisely, but well enough to know if you should let him around before you try to pass. i know what you are talking about, about the other driver being startled, because i myself have been startled by drivers cruising by at around 90-100mph when i'm doin 55-65. the problem, though, as i saw it, was not their fault for barreling around me, but my fault for not paying the attention to my task-at-hand that i should have been. oddly enough, since the 2nd time(happened 2x in around 4 mo. when i'd had my liscence for around 6 mo), i haven't been startled..and i've been passed by cars doing roughly twice the speed of my car. another odd occurance is the fact that this only seems to happen on long trips...and if i drive along with them, it doesn't happen at all :-) even on the long trips! :-) (adrenaline will do that to you...i've had bad cop experiences with speeding, so anything over the limit is adrenalizing for me...scared i'll get caught :-) maybe they should raise the limit, so we can pay better attention..... just curious, and my .otwo 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103108">
<answer instance="rec.autos103108" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just ordered a saturn sl1 after considering a few imports. frankly, the saturn way of doing business and service was a *very* big plus. i hadn't bought a new car since i bought my honda 4wd back in '85, and i was unbelieveably offended by most salespeople i met. saturn was indeed very different. i made three different visits to the dealer where i bought my car, and was never pressured. saturn also had the best after-sales support, and the fixed pricing made it *very* easy for me to decide exactly what i wanted to buy. another big selling point was running into my mechanic at the dealer. he's been fixing imports for 20 years...and bought a saturn, based on what he's seen and heard from his customers. saturn also has a good extended warranty program; $675 for 6 year/60k miles, fully refunded if you don't use it. that works out to an actual cost of $170 or so, based on the 6 year treasury rates. using savings account rates it's more like $120. in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work, without counting against the refund. --mike 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103109">
<answer instance="rec.autos103109" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me; if you can't handle a stick, you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers. that is not to say that there aren't real drivers who can't use the stick (eg disabled persons), but they aren't in any position to use an sho anyway. i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all "performance-type" cars (like the 5.0l mustangs, camaros, and the like) we'd cut down on the number of accidents each year. autos are fine for sedate little sedans, but they have no business in performance cars, imho. i have to disagree with this. i have a 92 z28 with a 350 and a 4-speed auto w/ overdrive, and it is really better that way. chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power. i live in the dallas area, and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here. now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to, a manual would be more fun. safety-wise, an auto is less distracting...i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here. performance-wise, i can hold my own against any stock 5.0 mustang or 5.0 camaro w/ a five speed. all of this imho... :) * robert l. loper * - infinity is a notion best contemplated * * robertll@flopn2.dseg.ti.com * in a warm bed. * * texas instruments, inc. * - my opinions are my own, not ti's. * 
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<instance id="rec.autos103110">
<answer instance="rec.autos103110" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 larger engine. that's what the sho is -- a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine. they didn't even bother improving the *brakes.* that shows how much you know about anything. the brakes on the sho are very different - 9 inch (or 9.5? i forget) discs all around, vented in front. the normal taurus setup is (smaller) discs front, drums rear. your argument still boils down to "an sho shouldn't be driven fast because i, jim frost, say it isn't designed to go fast." if you think so you sure don't pay attention to my postings. damn straight. you're one of those people who makes stuff up and tries to pawn it off as god's own truth. if i want lies i can go listen to television. the wharf rat 
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<instance id="rec.autos103111">
<answer instance="rec.autos103111" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the older ny taxis were made by the checker car company, and i would love to have one. or, is the checker car company still in business? checker motors went out of business in 1982. it's hard to get old checkers that are worth restoring, since almost every one was a fleet vehicle that was driven into the ground. if you can get a body in decent shape the mechanicals should all be available _somewhere_ - checker used whatever parts were around. for instance, i had a chevy straight six and a gmc truck radiator and a ford rear in mine. the model that i am looking for is the checker marathon. actually, you want a checker special if you can find one. good luck. i'm sorry i let mine go... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103113">
<answer instance="rec.autos103113" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 joni ciarletta writes my honda accord just hit the magic 100,000 mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad. the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes. they still stop the car fine, but once i am stopped completely, my brake pedal will sink another 2 or 3 inches all by itself. if feels really strange, and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days. i checked my brake fluid, and the reservoir was full, but the fluid itself looked really dirty (like dirty oil). i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder, which will cost me a whopping $250-300. you are not alone. my '79 honda accord with 110,000 miles on it started showing the same behavior. i replaced the brake master cylinder myself. it took about an hour and cost about $45. sure beats paying $300 to have someone else do it! if i wanted to rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one, it would have cost only $20 to $30 for the rebuild kit. the honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to. two bolts attach it to the engine compartment. two brake lines enter the master cylinder. the tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight. my craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads! i had to use vise grips to loosen those suckers. wow! best invention since sliced bread. after that it was very easy. bolt the new part in place, add new brake fluid, and bleed the brakes. this is quite easy even for a beginner. my local auto parts store had a repair manual for the honda accord; it had detailed diagrams of the master brake cylinder and a step-by-step procedure for replacing it. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103118">
<answer instance="rec.autos103118" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, a207706@moe.dseg.ti.com (robert loper) says: why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me; if you can't handle a stick, you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers. that is not to say that there aren't real drivers who can't use the stick (eg disabled persons), but they aren't in any position to use an sho anyway. i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all "performance-type" cars (like the 5.0l mustangs, camaros, and the like) we'd cut down on the number of accidents each year. autos are fine for sedate little sedans, but they have no business in performance cars, imho. i have to disagree with this. i have a 92 z28 with a 350 and a 4-speed auto w/ overdrive, and it is really better that way. chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power. i live in the dallas area, and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here. now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to, a manual would be more fun. safety-wise, an auto is less distracting...i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here. performance-wise, i can hold my own against any stock 5.0 mustang or 5.0 camaro w/ a five speed. all of this imho... :) all of my ho's disagree with your ho's. i loved dallas rush hour in my stick.. detested it in the auto(like i did any other time in the auto...). of course, dalls rush hours are nothing, from what i hear..if i lived in la, i might be of a different persuasion. and, just for the record, rarely do you shift gears when merging into traffic..that is what 5 speeds are good for..4th is good up through around 80-90, most of the time, so you can just wind it out.. it's not going to hurt anything, and keeps it in the powerband anyway.. only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in 4th(fairly rare, unless you drive a ferrari or some such, i'd bet) or when you hit cruising speed where you feel comfortable(or when my mother is sitting in the passanger seat complaining about how you wind her "poor little engine" way too hi :-) just my ho's.. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103120">
<answer instance="rec.autos103120" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 before the s4 became the s4 it was called the 200 turbo quattro 20v. this model did come in a wagon, a very quick wagon. very rare also. mike sylvester umass yes, i saw a 200 turbo quattro wagon on i-287 in nj on monday. i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the 5000. this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own. i bet its price is 4-5 times my car budget. ron deblock rdb1@homxb.att.com (that's a number 1 in rdb1, not letter l) at&t bell labs somerset, nj usa 
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<instance id="rec.autos103122">
<answer instance="rec.autos103122" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 bob: excellent! to the point and correct! spread the word. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103124">
<answer instance="rec.autos103124" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my ex-husband & i used to own borgwards. haven't seen any for a long time. they were really good cars. does ayone out there know anything about them now? i heard they were being made in mexico, but of course they wouldn't be the original german - if that's even true. when i've been in mexico i haven't seen any. we loved ours, even tho' they were ugly - they had names - one was humphrey borgward. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103126">
<answer instance="rec.autos103126" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the question is not whether your radio will be stolen. the question is when your radio will be stolen. tommy reingold at&t bell labs, holmdel, nj tommy@boole.att.com or att!boole!tommy 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103127">
<answer instance="rec.autos103127" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i went to a place called american car care centers to check my car for a/c leak. after "checking", i was told that there is a leak in the compressor seal. at the end, in addition to the labor for the check, i was charged 12 dollars for a pound of freon, although they evacuated my a/c afterwards because of the leak. first, is it fair for him to charge me for a pound of freon ($12 plus tax) ? second, what can i do about this if this is unfair ? -- albert wu. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103129">
<answer instance="rec.autos103129" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children, seniors, the homeless? hear, hear! thanks, robbie. you also don't read that much about violence *against* teenagers, such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi 17-year-olds, who were trying to surrender, with bulldozers. on the other hand, i think it *is* true, without singling out teenagers for blame, that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be. those of us who'd like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages. well, this isn't the right group for this, but i have to say that i don't think violence is any more socially acceptable now, by any means. how can you say that when we used to have of pistol-toting gunslingers as heros, or even gangland thugs being considered romantic. do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians? i don't think so. that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then, in fact. i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays, when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california, we here about it in ma the same day. back in the old days, they'd never hear about something like that, period. sorry about posting to rec.autos, but this is where it came up... / _ \ '85 mustang gt bob pitas / /ush 14.13 @ 99.8 bpita@ctp.com / /| \ up at ned, epping, nh (cambridge, ma) "" - geddy lee (in yyz) disclaimer: these opinions are mine, obviously, since they end with my .sig! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103130">
<answer instance="rec.autos103130" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the subarus all use 180 degree vees in their engines.. :-) a 180 degree v ya gotta love it !> 
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<instance id="rec.autos103133">
<answer instance="rec.autos103133" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : >after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new : >car. later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were : >different from the terms i had agreed to. (i made the stupid mistake : >of not checking everything on the contract). this all happened last : >saturday. : >i have heard that there is a "cooling-off" law allowing me three days : >to reconsider the contract. is this true? can anyone point me to the : >law? the transaction happened at the dealership, if it matters. : this cooling off period applies only in certain situations - lik ewhen : you are solicited at home. i also think the cooling off period ends : if you actually accept the merchandise. : if this were not the case, any car buyer would have the right to return : a slightly used, highly devalued, car 2 days after buying it. yeah - : that's the trick - if i want to buy a new car, i'd have a firend buy : & return one, then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre-owned : used car. however, if you agree some terms, and then, when about to sign, the dealer slips you a contract with different terms, and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to, that is fraud. there is no 3 day limit on restitution for fraud. you may have to sue (and win) to get out of this. you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue. john oswalt jao@megatest.com or jao@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103134">
<answer instance="rec.autos103134" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi! this is my first time to post on this news group. now a days , i have stucked at a certain problem. i have '88 mazda mx-6, non turbo fuel injection. there is a engine warning signal on the dash board. while driving, this signal turns on, but not always. what does this mean? in the manual, they say "go to authorized mazda dealer.". it is really good idea. don't you think so? i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes. is anybody out there who can give me same advice as "authorized mazda dealer" can give ? youjip won yjwon@cs.umn.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos103135">
<answer instance="rec.autos103135" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 first off, the correct spelling of nissan's luxury automobile division is "infiniti" not "infinity." who cares about typos of these meaningless, synthetic names? if the cars were named after a person, e.g. honda, i'd be more respectful. lexus: gs300- v6 es300- v6 sc300- v6 wrong! the gs300 and sc300 use straight sixes, while the es300 uses a v6. only a giant like toyota can afford to have both a v6 and inline 6 in its lineup, but that won't last for long. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103137">
<answer instance="rec.autos103137" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just have got to remind all of you that this is it! yes, that's right, somtime this fall, ford (the granddaddy of cars) will be introducing an all-new, mega-cool way-too-fast-for-accord-drivers mustang. it's supposed to be 100% streamlined, looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january. i can't wait. anyone out there hear anything about it recently? yeah, it looks like shit!!! nothing like the mach iii. check out the latest issue of popular mechanics, they have a picture of one. it looks like a cross between a dodge daytona and an eagle talon, only much uglier. this car looks like it should have been produced in 1990, not 1994. i'll pick up that pm and have a look -- maybe the picture in there is not the actual car, but a prototype? i saw the mach iii and was not all that impressed -- it looked way too japanese for me... the tear drop headlights reminded me of a nissan nx... glad i didn't hold out for the '94 and bought a '93. maybe they'll work on the design a little bit, listen to consumers and come out with nice-looking '95 or '96. it always takes a while to work out the kinks in a new design, e.g. the f-body camaro/firebirds (btw, the new camaros look like shit too). keath milligan, software engineer, videotelecom corporation, austin, texas jkm@vtel.com, reaper@wixer.bga.com try real/time communications! (512-459-4391 or telnet wixer.bga.com) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103142">
<answer instance="rec.autos103142" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i agree with gaia. even though the saturn has proved to be a very reliable car so far, a little money spent now is worth the peace of mind. in my opinion, getting the powertrain warranty is enough. in my case, that's be cause; anything that needed repairing in the interior (sunroof, windows, doors, etc.) i could do myself. i just didn't want to mess with the engine and such. plus i think the extra 3 years of 24-hour roadside assistance must be worthe so meting. i opted for the 5 year plan for $375. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103148">
<answer instance="rec.autos103148" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i want to thank all the people that responded to my post a few weeks ago about buying an '86 chev nova with over 100,000 mi. i decided to buy the car and have had it for about a month. i replaced the front brake pads and changed the oil. so far no problems have surfaced. i received many suggestions and encouragement on this purchase and figured a late "thank you" was better than none. thanks to all! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103150">
<answer instance="rec.autos103150" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : > my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. i was about to recommend you consider a targa top over a convertible but, drew made the point very well. when my wife and i were in our 20s we did the convertible thing with triumphs. now in our mid-40s, we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types. there is much less wind noise, objects/papers blowing around, foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible. my last car had t-tops (big t-tops). my current car is a convertible. imho, if you're after that 'convertible feel', t-tops, open-top, sunroofs, moonroofs, whatever, just don't cut it. there's no substitute for a convertible. if you're not after that sun beating down on you, the wind in your hair and teeth, the flopsum and jetsum getting in the car and the noises associated with the whooshing of the wind, you're not after that 'convertible feel'. so go with something with at least a hole above the driver but don't call it a convertible. and i do wonder how those targa tops would compare against my roll bar in a rollover situation. of course, i'd rather not test it in my car. i, too, am in my early 40s. a convertible--accept no substitute. tonya (i'd rather be sailing) flynn /|\ 6901 w. sunrise blvd. (305/797-2446) / | \ ft. lauderdale, fl 33313 "let's just punch through that ---------- uucp: uunet!gould!tflynn sand bar"--crew of natty dread ------ internet: tflynn@encore.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103151">
<answer instance="rec.autos103151" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 and here's my two cents: the best convertible for the money, imo, is the miata. yes, it's small, but you're buying it as a second car, i hope, so you don't need the cargo room of a big car. it's got enough power for fun, it's rwd like a sports car ought to be (i'm gonna regret that :-{) and the top, while manual, operates like a dream. 30 seconds and one hand to lower, and not much longer to raise. the targa-type cars are nice, but they're not real convertibles. ken warren |the secrets of a good life are early nights, good |food, excercise, and clean living... e-mail: kenw@netaxs.com|but the secrets of a happy life are late nights, |wild parties, kinky sex, and junk food! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103152">
<answer instance="rec.autos103152" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i came across this interesting information in my local public library while researching minivans. it is the dealer price and the retail price for a minivan i am thinking about purchasing. someone told me that the number for base price was slightly lower than the current price, but this should still give you some idea about pricing and how much you can negotiate. mercury villager gs dealer retail base price $14688 16504 air conditioning 729 857 rear defroster 143 168 calif. emissions 87 102 7 passenger seating 282 332 am/fm radio (no cassette) std std automatic transmission std std anti-lock brakes std std destination 540 540 the total dealer cost is $16469 the total retail price is $18467 nissan quest xe dealer retail base price $15212 17545 air conditioning std std rear defroster std std calif. emissions 59 70 7 passenger seating std std am/fm cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti-lock brakes 593 700 destination 540 540 the total dealer cost is $16404 the total retail price is $18855 
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<instance id="rec.autos103153">
<answer instance="rec.autos103153" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : to wheelspin in an auto, you keep the gear in n - gas it - then stick the : gear in d... i've never tried this but am sure it works - but does this screw : up the autobox? we're having a bit of a debate about it here... i've known more people to leave their rear ends in pieces doing this, especially if they have reasonable power to transmit and good traction on the road surface. you're better off powerbraking. wes fujii ___ ___ ___ / /__/ // / a real motor is an oldsmobile rocket 455 / hurst // / "this is not the new generation of olds" / / / // /_______ /__/ /__// // ___ \ / // / \ \ wes "banzai" fujii / // /olds/ / boise, idaho / / \ \___/ / wesf@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com /__/ \_______/ 
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<instance id="rec.autos103155">
<answer instance="rec.autos103155" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> >i just have got to remind all of you that this is it! yes, |> >that's right, somtime this fall, ford (the granddaddy of cars) |> >will be introducing an all-new, mega-cool |> >way-too-fast-for-accord-drivers mustang. it's supposed to be |> >100% streamlined, looking similar to the mach iii concept car |> >ford came out with around january. i can't wait. anyone out |> >there hear anything about it recently? |> if everything i've read is correct, ford is doing nothing but "re- |> skinning" the existing mustang, with minor suspension modifications. |> and the pictures i've seen indicate they didn't do a very good job |> of it. |> the "new" mustang, is nothing but a re-cycle of a 20 year old car. |> jeff what??? i heard there was a new engine slated for the mustang...something like 280hp (ok, it was from one of their other lines...)... eric alter 
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<instance id="rec.autos103156">
<answer instance="rec.autos103156" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 -> 4) are there any fairly cheap (<$150 or so) ways to increase the -> performance on this car? unfortunately, a taurus is not exactly a -> muscle car, so i'm looking for ways to increase the performance. there is a company in florida that sells computer chips that supposedly get a few hp and torque out of the 3.0. don't have the address, but saw the ad in hot rod and some other car magazines. also, you could open up the exhaust (get an exhaust with a larger i.d.) hope this helps. if you find anything else, let me know. i've got a 1990 taurus l. george howell george.howell%goucher@wb3ffv.ampr.org 
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<instance id="rec.autos103160">
<answer instance="rec.autos103160" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> |> i heard the diesels are considered cleaner-burning than |> |> gas engines because the emit less of: carbon monoxide, |> |> hydrocarbons, and oxides of nitrogen. (co, hc, nox). |> |> but they can put out a lot of particulate matter. i heard |> |> something about legislation being discussed to "clean up |> |> diesel emissions". is there anything in the works to |> |> install "scrubbers" for diesels? how about the feasibility |> |> of installing them on trucks and cars? would it be any |> |> different than a catylitic converter? i'd assume easier, |> |> since we're removing particulate matter instead of converting |> |> gasses. let's hear people's opinions... |> this really bugs me. the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle, |> but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars |> in california. what a bunch of crap. diesel is the fuel of choice for |> enviromental benefit in europe while here it's illegal for the same reason. |> the particulates are nothing but carbon. they are just an annoyance at worst. |> nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions, torque or engine |> durability. it's also cheaper. diesels fall into the same emissions mythology as alcohol fuels. the main reason they are considered "cleaner" is because they are better at the emissions we actually measure and regulate. but they also contribute additional emissions which have long been determined to be as harmful, but no suitable control or limits have been defined. current evidence is pointing to most visible smog actually being diesel emissions and suspended particles and less of a photo-chemical reaction. diesel particulates are now becoming a major concern in decreased lung capacity. and alcohols emit signifcantly more aldehydes (a known carcinigen) than gasoline. the evidence is mounting that while we have been beating the gasoline engine to death, we may have been ignoring the effects of the alternatives. and anyone who thinks diesels are so great, should go and spend a few hours in rush hour traffic in some cities in europe. there the stench of the diesels is awful and it can even burn the eyes. diesels being clean is only relative to our current standards. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103161">
<answer instance="rec.autos103161" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster, which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set? i consider the basic set to be: - coolant temp (or cylinder head temp for air-cooled engines) - oil pressure others that are nice to have: - volts (maybe this should be in the basic set) - vacuum/boost i can think of a few others, but what are your ideas and why? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103162">
<answer instance="rec.autos103162" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 rboudrie@chpc.org (rob boudrie) writes... after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new car. later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were different from the terms i had agreed to. (i made the stupid mistake of not checking everything on the contract). this all happened last i have heard that there is a "cooling-off" law allowing me three days to reconsider the contract. is this true? can anyone point me to the law? the transaction happened at the dealership, if it matters. this cooling off period applies only in certain situations - lik ewhen you are solicited at home. i also think the cooling off period ends if you actually accept the merchandise. if this were not the case, any car buyer would have the right to return a slightly used, highly devalued, car 2 days after buying it. yeah - that's the trick - if i want to buy a new car, i'd have a firend buy & return one, then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre-owned used car. for discussion purposes only on the other hand, if it can be proven, it's possible the changed terms could be thrown out. the question will be whether the agreement contains a merger clause. see ucc @ 2-202 (parol evidence). if we're talking about warranties, then, of course, ucc @ 2-316 should be looked at. but we have so little information that none of us can say anything daniel reitman "the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser, but it is not a shield for the sly conniver, the blindly naive, or the hopelessly gullible." atlas auto rental corp. v. weisberg, 54 misc. 2d 168, 172, 281 n.y.s.2d 400, 405 (n.y. city civ. ct. 1967). 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103163">
<answer instance="rec.autos103163" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, finnegan@nrlssc.navy.mil () says: the subarus all use 180 degree vees in their engines.. :-) wouldn't that make them an i4? or would they really be an _4 (henceforth referred to as "underscore 4")? i think that it is technicaly known as a 180 degree vee configuration. (could be wrong....this is how i've seen them referred to) i've always heard them referred to "horizontally opposed"... joseph staudt, telxon corp. | joes@telxon.com p.o. box 5582 | "usenet is like tetris for people who still akron, oh 44334-0582 | remember how to read." (216) 867-3700 x3522 | -- j. heller 
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<instance id="rec.autos103164">
<answer instance="rec.autos103164" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 & >i'm not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup, but in the trans-am & >cars i've played with the transmissions were the racing variety, with & >dog clutches instead of sychros. in a transmission with dog clutches, the & >gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches & >engages the gears to the shafts. motorcycle transmissions are the same way. & >shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause & >transmission damage, the only question being how long it takesto grenade & >something (for the trans in my 87 pulsar se, it was about 3-5k miles, but & >it had a weak tranny in the first place). & just out of curiosity, how is this "dog clutch" any different from a synchro & transmission. what you described sounds the same to me. in fact, what little & i've studied on trannies, the instructor referred to the synchros as "dogs" & and said they were synonymous. the gears are always meshed in a synchronized & gearbox, and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting. or at least, & that is what i was taught. explain, por favour? motorcycle transmissions don't have synchros. the engagment dogs are very corse and sloppy. there are maybe 6-10 teeth (dogs) on the side of the gears that engage the next gear over as the forks slide the gears back and forth. to shift: start to apply pressure at the same time the clutch is pulled (the clutch is a hand lever) and shift quickly. if you try a slow lazy shift it will grind, you just have to pop it into the next gear before it has a chance to grind. there isn't a neutral between gears (obviously there is, but you can't select it with the shifter) so double clutching is not a possibility. "speed shifting" (which is what i have always heard "clutchless shifting" called) works pretty well for upshifts with some practice, but i usually use the clutch-especially for the lower gears. i think auto (as in automobile) trannys are similar, except that the engagment dogs are very fine, with no slop. and the addition of syncho rings. the gear teeth are always engaged in auto transmissions that are synchronized, but may not be in non-synchro gears (reverse and sometimes first). frank ball 1ur-m frankb@sad.hp.com (707) 794-4168 work, hewlett packard (707) 794-3844 fax, (707) 538-3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175, xt350, seca 750, '62 f-100, pl510 rohnert park ca 94928-4999 kc6wug, law, ama, dod #7566, i'm the nra. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103165">
<answer instance="rec.autos103165" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 path: eclipse!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!hawnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!news.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!wen-king newsgroups: rec.autos organization: california institute of technology lines: 9 references: <1r72ejinnk2j@gap.caltech.edu> <1r7cr2innvar@sumax.seattleu.edu> nntp-posting-host: neptune.cs.caltech.edu the villager-quest seem like the best of the cravan/voyager copies to <come along since the mazda mpv. the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima 4 speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train, and <the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered. only the price is hmm. the last time i checked, villager/quest does not have a maxima engine, and is very much under powered for its weight. same engine, different state of tune (less hp and maybe more torque). my friend at work regularly takes 6 people in his and it seems to haul around just fine. jeff goss 
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<instance id="rec.autos103166">
<answer instance="rec.autos103166" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm considering switching to geico insurance ... i got numerous complaints about geico, and several helpful pointers to other (good) insurance companies. i have decided to go with the erie insurance exchange, which seems to combine high ratings from the net and consumer reports with low rates (at least for me). thanks for all the responses. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103168">
<answer instance="rec.autos103168" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 dont get me wrong, i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake> cars who are on the right, i slow down a tad bit. if i were to rely on the j>udgement of the other car, to recognize the speed differential, i would be the stupid one. just to satiate my curiosity, why would this make you the stupid one? it seems to me, everybody should be aware enough of what is going on. you do not need i couldnt agree more. that is how it should work. people should also always see motorcycles too. i constantly scan behind me (i have one of those wink mirrors) and two outside mirrors. i actually spend just as much time checking my six (cops you know). i still get caught off guard every now and then. maybe i didnt word it right the first time. what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you, you are stupid (of course, it depends on the circumstances). i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy (now if he was going 25 in a 55 thats a whole different story) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103169">
<answer instance="rec.autos103169" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (charles parr) says: the idea here is to list pointless options. you know, stuff you (can) get on a car that has no earthly use? 1) a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running, and plug ins in the trunk, engine compartment and cabin. feel free to add on... regards, charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --unknown net.person 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103170">
<answer instance="rec.autos103170" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, gwm@spl1.spl.loral.com (gary w. mahan) says: dont get me wrong, i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake> cars who are on the right, i slow down a tad bit. if i were to rely on the j>udgement of the other car, to recognize the speed differential, i would be the stupid one. just to satiate my curiosity, why would this make you the stupid one? it seems to me, everybody should be aware enough of what is going on. you do not need i couldnt agree more. that is how it should work. people should also always see motorcycles too. i constantly scan behind me (i have one of those wink mirrors) and two outside mirrors. i actually spend just as much time checking my six (cops you know). i still get caught off guard every now and then. maybe i didnt word it right the first time. what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you, you are stupid (of course, it depends on the circumstances). i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy (now if he was going 25 in a 55 thats a whole different story) ok. i can agree to this, because, as we have both proved, what is ideally supposed to happen, isn't always. and even though i'm rearely the one doing the passing, i don't see where it makes you stupid, but i agree, that if you think you are safe, because the other guy is supposed to have been paying attention, then yes, you are just as dumb as the other(maybe dumber?) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103171">
<answer instance="rec.autos103171" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 cup holders (driving is an importantant enough undertaking) ashtrays (smokers seem to think it's just fine to use the road) oh, sure -- sorry, but the absence of a cupholder is not gonna discourage anyone from eating/drinking in the car; let's just put one in anyway, so at least they don't have the further distraction of trying not to spill it. furthermore, you are obviously not a smoker; on a cold day, it takes a certain skill to toss a butt out of a cracked window without having it wind-deflect into the back seat. also, just 'cause some smokers use the window, doesn't mean all of us do. this reminds me of *one* pleasant feature in the otherwise ergonomically-hellish interior of the alfa romeo milano: you could ash your cigarette without even removing your hand from the wheel; the 'tray was *right*there*. fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs. any gold trim. these, i will agree, are abominations, right along with the fake continental spare-tire kit -- it's sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire-medallion in the way. most pitiful fake convertible top: on a "cadillac" cimarron, with all the chrome door trim still visible -- not fooling *anyone*. of course, there was that hyundai excel i once saw... ___ a laszlo@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | | {*} redhead afficionado extraordinaire *and* | | __v__ little canadia's minister of fine tobaccos |_|o_|%%%|0_ cigaret brands sampled: 55 import/luxury, 17 handrolling | | these opinions are not necessarily mine (or mine, either). |_______| -----> can anyone bum me a .sig? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103173">
<answer instance="rec.autos103173" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> in article <1993apr15.135514.29579@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> rdb1@cbnewsj.cb.att.com |> >you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in |> >place of the bolt. i have one on both of my cars. there have been no |> >leaks in 210,000 miles (combined miles on both cars). |> yes, but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot. |> all they have to do is reach underneath, turn a valve, and forget the trip |> home. |> but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them. |> i personally recommend, installing a 'special' locking drain plug to keep |> vandals away. :---) |> steve i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also. i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut. it works great ! i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it's just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every 3000 miles. works for me, i must say. either i've just fallen for this, or you guys are _really_ paranoid! you're actually worried about somebody stealing your oil? c'mon, you think a vandal'll do that?! that's absolutely ridiculous! besides, how hard is it to get under the car to change the oil? i can say from experience on the cars that i've driven and changed the oil on, my mazda 323 is pretty much a pain, but once you've done it once, you don't forget how, and it gets easier. i can't imagine any other cars are much worse than mine. andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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<instance id="rec.autos103174">
<answer instance="rec.autos103174" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 1991 toyota camry for sale: deluxe package 5 speed power windows power door locks am/fm cassette power steering power brakes 70k highway miles excellent condition $9500 rob fusi rwf2@lehigh.edu (609) 397-2147 after 7pm e-mail me for more info... (914) 335-6984 day (until 5) ask for bob fusi 
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<instance id="rec.autos103177">
<answer instance="rec.autos103177" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children, seniors, the homeless? hear, hear! thanks, robbie. you also don't read that much about violence *against* teenagers, such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi 17-year-olds, who were trying to surrender, with bulldozers. on the other hand, i think it *is* true, without singling out teenagers for blame, that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be. those of us who'd like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages. well, this isn't the right group for this, but i have to say that i don't think violence is any more socially acceptable now, by any means. how can you say that when we used to have of pistol-toting gunslingers as heros, or even gangland thugs being considered romantic. do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians? i don't think so. that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then, in fact. i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays, when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california, we here about it in ma the same day. back in the old days, they'd never hear about something like that, period. yeah, people act really shocked about violence, as though it were new to our species... what about the holocaust? the crusades? the salem witch trials? the religious persecutions of the middle-ages? what about violent acts carried out in the name of religion all over the world? what about the early christians put to death by the romans? the jews persecuted by christians? there are a lot more humans today than there have ever been. i do not know the stats, but there are far more people on the planet than there were 2 or 3 hundred years ago! the per capita acts of violence are probably not significantly different than they were a hundred or a thousand years ago! there is nothing new about violence. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103178">
<answer instance="rec.autos103178" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 v8's, v10's, and v12's.....man...can you imagine doing a valve adjustment on one that has multiple non-hydraulic valves in each cylinder??!! i was at the indianapolis motor speedway museum the other day and one of their very early winners was 4 valves per cylinder (and either front wheel drive or all wheel drive, i think front wheel drive) and that was in 1914! spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com software technology, delco electronics (317) 451-0815 gm hughes electronics, kokomo, in 46904 "i post, therefore i armm" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103180">
<answer instance="rec.autos103180" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 advice on saturn extended warranty i placed an order for a saturn sl2 and it is expected next week. the saturn retailer gave me some pamphlets about the extended warranty plan and i have been thinking about it. being a first time new car buyer, i am seeking advice from veterans esp. those who have bought saturns lately. fyi, i have listed some of the features of the saturn extended warranty plan. the car comes with a 3 years/36,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. plan i extended powertrain coverage covers the cost of repairs to * engine * transaxle * front wheel drive * 24 hour roadside assistance program coverage term (years/miles) deductible 5/60,000 6/75,000 6/100,000 $50 $375 $550 $725 i say extended warranties are a ripoff, high-profit item for dealers. but what i really want to point out here is that you are not buying 5/60k, 6/75k, 6/100k. you get 3yr/36k *free*. so what you are buying is 2/24k, 3/39k, 3/64k. keep that in mind when you look at the cost vs. coverage. another point is that many car companies routinely fix car problems that are out of warranty...why? design/manufacturing defects that the company owns up to, keeping customer happy, etc. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103181">
<answer instance="rec.autos103181" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> i find this method much better myself, too, although i do really |> hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my |> hand both come crashing into my face. after coming to, which is |> about 15 minutes later, i change my clothes (because by this time |> all the oil has drained *on* me), and ice my entire face and suck |> down about 20 tylenol to ease the pain. later in the day i then |> proceed with refilling the engine oil. |> it's just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one |> weekend---i go through about 3 bottles of tylenol and 2 bags of ice. oh, that's not so bad. every time i try to change the oil, i forget to shut off the engine first. the hot oil comes out and scalds me, blinds me, then the engine starts to overheat, and while i'm screaming in agony and trying to crawl out from under the car, i grab the red hot exhaust pipe and get third degree burns on my hands. my screams intensify as i finally emerge from under the car, and i struggle to my feet in front of the car, whereupon the radiator hose ruptures and sprays me with super heated coolant. then the engine seizes, but not before the cylinder head explodes, piercing my flesh with fragments of red hot iron. this happens every time. i'm starting to think i should pay the mechanic $25 instead paying the hospital $250,000 and the dealer $25,000 for a new car. this gets costly when you change the oil every 3000 miles. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103182">
<answer instance="rec.autos103182" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm in the market for a new car. currently i own a '90 mazda mx-6 dx which has served me just fine. however, i'd like to get a 4-door car since i don't relish the thought of moving a carseat around in a 2-door car. my criteria are: 4-door, a/c, am/fm cassette, quick acceleration, cruise control, decent rear seat legroom (my husband is a 6-footer). it must also be under $20k preferably closer to the 11-15k range (which will probably rule out the accord). the '93 cars that have caught my eye are: toyota corolla, toyata camry, mazda 626, pontiac grand am, pontiac grand prix, honda accord, (and civic if it's roomy enough and still comes in a 4-door model), hyundai sonata, and maybe even a small oldsmobile, although not the achieva. all opinions, benchmarks, recommendations, etc. are welcome. the civic does still come in a 4 door model. my wife and i looked quite seriously at the 626, prizm (corolla), and civic, as well as some other cars. our impressions: all three seemed well built and had the features we wanted - these are similar to the features you want except for cruise control, and we want a manual transmission and are considering anti-lock brakes. i also hate automatic seatbelts and we both think having an airbag is a plus. in general, comfort and performance were both significant. some specific +'s and -'s are listed below. mazda 626 + very comfortable and roomy + can theoretically get abs on dx model, though in practice this is hard to find + base price for base model includes numerous little things like: tach, variable speed wipers, rear defroster, 60/40 split folding rear seat - more expensive than many other cars listed below honda civic + dx gets significantly better mileage than other cars listed here + comfortable front seat + adjustable seat belt mounting - no abs without ex model (includes $1000's of other things like a sunroof) geo prizm/toyota corolla - seats not very comfortable to us (your mileage may vary) + adjustable seat belt mounting + can get abs without lots of other extras + sl2 was quite comfortable, though sl1 less so - motorized attack belts dodge spirit no real outstanding +'s, but seemed generally ok - rear seat does not fold down chevy corsica + comes with abs standard - lower "would you buy that car again" and safety ratings in consumer reports (than first 3 cars above) - suspension didn't feel as stiff as the others (this would be a + for some) the honda accord and toyota camry were both more expensive than the 626, and in our minds, not significantly better. we probably gave disproportionately low consideration to the "big 3", due (a) to my wife's family's general dislike of chrysler products, (b) some unimpressive gm products owned by my parents and a housemate of mine (c) the taurus comes with automatic transmission, i find the seat of the tempo very uncomfortable, and the escort has attack belts and no air bag. we'll probably end up with a 626 - i saw a 626 dx with a/c and cassette advertised for just under $12800 (washington post, april 14, i think), and my local dealer says they can match that price. i will probably get the 626 (maybe tomorrow). the main question in my mind is whether or not i will have to do a "factory order" or "preference order" to get one with abs, and whether or not the dealership will run the price up a lot if i do so. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103186">
<answer instance="rec.autos103186" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children, seniors, the homeless? hear, hear! thanks, robbie. you also don't read that much about violence *against* teenagers, such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi 17-year-olds, who were trying to surrender, with bulldozers. on the other hand, i think it *is* true, without singling out teenagers for blame, that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be. those of us who'd like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages. i didn't know george could drive a bulldozer! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103187">
<answer instance="rec.autos103187" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : in response to a post about suv's, i got several unsolicited recommendations to : check out the land cruiser, despite its astronomical price. : the toyota dealer told me it's a "cult car". : if a car is good enough to create a passionate and loyal following, there : must be something really extraordinary about it. : so, all you land crusher cultists - here is your chance to convert me. : jonathan edwards edwards@intranet.com : intranet, inc 617-527-7020 based on my experience with a '79 fj40 ( the hard-top jeep-style model ) i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market. the older models are very well built. unless toyota lost its mind, i would assume, until proven otherwise, that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors. two major differences in the running gear (that i'm aware of) need study. my '79 has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension. the solid axle is theoretically stronger and more reliable than the newer model, but only experience will tell. the independant front suspension is, no doubt, a compromise made to satisfy the typical user, who will never need a real utility vehicle. the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models. i'm not sure, but i think tioyota went to a full-time 4wd or all-wheel drive system. the older landcruisers have a "lock-up" type. both have their advantages and disadvantages. paul hovnanian hovnania@atc.boeing.com [std disclaimers apply] 
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<instance id="rec.autos103190">
<answer instance="rec.autos103190" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs. any gold trim. these, i will agree, are abominations, right along with the fake continental spare-tire kit -- it's sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire-medallion in the way. most pitiful fake convertible top: on a "cadillac" cimarron, with all the chrome door trim still visible -- not fooling *anyone*. of course, there was that hyundai excel i once saw... i have seen a cutlass supreme coupe (gm10) with a vinyl roof, ditto a taurus. shoot the owners, now, before it's too late. it gets better. i've seen them on a 4-door escort, chevy s-10 blazer, and even a chevy astro mini-van. a mini-van w/ a fake convertible top is not something you want to see just after eating! and better yet..there's a chevette in town with wire crome wheels, vinyl roof, tacky paint job and a continental spare (showing the wire crome wheel within, of course)...i'm scared to look on the inside and have only seen it rolling down the road...and i too was glad i hadn't just ate. bob martel | lady luck must have been a wonderful girl bob2@cua3.csuohio.edu | -she's never been a friend of mine! r1004@vmcms.csuohio.edu | the alan parsons project | the 3b1 lives! chris t. ward dod#0710 "don't take life too seriously, you can never come out of it alive." -? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103194">
<answer instance="rec.autos103194" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i was recently thumbing through the 1993 lemon-aid new car guide. what i found was a car would be given a 'recommended' under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision. the most highly recommended small car (the civic) has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed. there were many such cases of 'great' vehicles where you wouldn't survive an accident. is it only me, or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car? definitely! safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car. i won't buy a small car like a civic or whatever. great = safety + handling + speed - for me seems to me that you would be more "dead" in a small car than a large car after an accident. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103196">
<answer instance="rec.autos103196" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare??? just wondering..... ___________________________________________________________________ ____/| john kissane | motorola ireland ltd., | \'o.o' uucp : ..uunet!motcid!glas!kissanej | mahon industrial estate, | =() ()= internet: kissanej@glas.rtsg.mot.com | blackrock, cork, ireland | u 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103197">
<answer instance="rec.autos103197" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 first off, the correct spelling of nissan's luxury automobile division is "infiniti" not "infinity." i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles, since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v6 engines, while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v8 engines. lexus: ls400- v8 gs300- v6 es300- v6 sc400- v8 sc300- v6 the gs300 and sc300 have an inline 6. infiniti: q45- v8 j30- v6 g20- inline 4 (i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here) inline 4 is correct. i hope this helps. this is off the subject but, don't the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters? i.e. ls400 = 4.0litre engine, sc300 = 3.0 liter "sport coupe".. and q45 = 4.5liter.. (similar, kinda, to bmw and mb nameing deal). 
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<instance id="rec.autos103199">
<answer instance="rec.autos103199" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my ex-husband & i used to own borgwards. even tho' they were ugly - they had names - one was humphrey borgward. that's pretty good. a friend had an audi that he named murphy. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103201">
<answer instance="rec.autos103201" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 s: you're actually worried about somebody stealing your oil? ahhh yes, andrew, we meet again... ...no, not 'stealing' the oil, just draining it as to leave me stranded. c'mon, you think a vandal'll do that?! let me guess, you're from hudson ohio?? that's absolutely ridiculous! get out and see the world. "if" i were the vandal, and i really hated someone, maybe someone who knew something about cars, of course i would look for any types of valves i could undo. especially, special oil drain plugs, and radiator petcocks. as well as putting bad things in the gas... while i would never vandalize someone's car, if i were to, it would probably be the 'time bomb' approach, and i'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks that way... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103205">
<answer instance="rec.autos103205" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i need your help with a problem i have with a 1989 mitsubishi galant gs transmission. the car has a 5 speed manual tranmission. since the car was bought new, while shifting from 2nd to 3rd, unless i do it slowly and carefully, it makes a "popping" or "hitting" sound. the dealer and mitsubishi customer service (reached by an 800 #) say this is normal for the car. is it? and about a year ago, at 35kmiles, the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse: 1- the shifter would not budge. the clutch had no effect. 2- the front tires would not budge, even when the clutch is fully depressed. 3- if the clutch is released the engine would die. 4- assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck, i could not make the car move. it acted as if it were in neutral(except for dying when clutch is released.) 5- i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth (less than an inch), while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter. 6- the shifter acted normally after that. when this happened, i took it to the dealer, they checked the clutch, it was o.k. they checked the transmission, it was o.k. i had the exact problem a couple of months ago, and again last week. the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi (the 800 #) says they have never heard of the problem, and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car. in all three occurances, the car was parked head first in a garage, and since the front wheels were stuck, the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter (hence temporarily solving the problem). and the dealer, and mitsubishi, refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck. i know there is smething wrong with the transmission (shifting from 2nd to 3rd), and getting stuck at random, but i can't get the dealer to fix it. i need your help with the mechanical problems, and with how to handle mitsubishi. all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated, and sorry to bore you with the long post. try another dealer. sometimes the sophistication of equipment etc is better at one dealer than another. you may also find another dealer willing to help you with the problem. -- joe 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103206">
<answer instance="rec.autos103206" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 but why not turn the question around, why are automatics so common in the us? because some people like them (and some people actually need them). my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque-rich v8's in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress, and that this has just lived on. yeah, right. real muscle cars had a manual transmission, and their clutches aren't that heavy. shelby-american used plenty of high-powered, high-torque engines, and carroll only put autos in his cars because people wanted them. (blasphemers! heretics! burn them, burn them for defiling a shelby with an auto! ;-) real cobras (and they were the ultimate sports car at the time) had big-block fords which turned out prodigious amounts of power and torque, and _none_ of them had automatics. and also, an automatic with a v8 engine can be real fun to drive. yeah, if you call a gear shift in the middle of a curve "fun." :-) i personally would _love_ to have a '66 galaxie 500 7-liter coupe, with a fire-breathing 427 and four-onna-floor (to go along side my '66 galaxie 500 pillarless hardtop with a fire-breathing 390 with three-onna-tree; i love the sound of dual exhaust in the morning! :-). there's no comparison between a real american muscle car and a car with a big engine and an automatic, imho. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103208">
<answer instance="rec.autos103208" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 for sale: fitted car cover specifically for '91',92,'93 mr-2. top of the line evolution-3 [tm] fabric. used for less than 6 months. the cover is in excellent condition-no rips, cuts, stains or other blemishes. it has grommets for a locking cable. the color is silver. price: $90 f.o.b. will ship collect please contact wchutt@monsanto.com or phone at 314 576 3798 after 6 pm cdt 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103209">
<answer instance="rec.autos103209" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 don't the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters? i.e. ls400 = 4.0litre engine, sc300 = 3.0 liter "sport coupe".. and q45 = 4.5liter.. (similar, kinda, to bmw and mb nameing deal). note: bmw doesnt always follow this convention. for example, 1980 320i had a 1.8 liter engine. the 1979 had a 2.0 liter. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103211">
<answer instance="rec.autos103211" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 in a previous article, eliot@lanmola.engr.washington.edu (eliot) says: are there any mr2 owners or motor-head gurus out there, that know why my mr2's engine sounds noisy? the mr2's engine is noisy at the best of times, but not even a nice nose - it's one of those very ugly noises. assuming yours is a non turbo mr2, the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline 4 that doesn't have balance shafts. i guess toyota didn't care about "little" details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling. myself, i automatically cross out any car from consideration (or recommendation) which has an inline 4 larger than 2 liters and no balance shafts.. it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine. if the noise really bugs you, there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v6. nice theory. too bad the mr2's never came with a four cylinder over 2.0 liters. more like 1.6. or did they? were the nonturbo mr2ii's 2.2 or some such? i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders, must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design..like porsche's 3.0 i4... c ya 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103215">
<answer instance="rec.autos103215" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 if you put a locking lugnut on your tires, do you need to have your tires rebalanced?? john mas e-mail address :: mas@skcla.monsanto.com i bought a set of are's a few months back and decided to add locks so that i could keep my new rims. i haven't had a balance problem yet so i assume that it might be just particular to your type of stock nuts. my rims were balanced with new bfg t/a's at a speed shop to the finest setting on their bal. machine, so that helps too. zauberer aka. travis t. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103216">
<answer instance="rec.autos103216" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 which are them main trucking companeies and their locations? do you have the name of ac a contact person? thanks.. email at erini@enterprise.ifp.uiuc.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103222">
<answer instance="rec.autos103222" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 for a reasonable sum, you can get a bmw with traction control: a torque-sensing (limited slip) rear differential. "traction control" as far as the optional feature that one buys with cars is not the same thing at all as a torque sensing differential. a torque sensing differential is a type of lsd, but not all lsd's are torque sensing. viscous coupled differentials (as opposed to viscous couplings) are rotational sensing, not torque sensing. for that matter, so are "traction control" systems that use abs sensors and pulse braking. then there are the older posi-tracs and whatever which i am not familiar with the workings. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103225">
<answer instance="rec.autos103225" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 although not in direct response to the referenced article, just to set the record straight, beamers are bmw motorcycles. bmw cars are bimmers. please, let's get our terms straight. actually, some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light 2002 or 1600. back when i was building round tail light 2002s they were bimmers. it was only when the (red suspendered, reganomics generated, quiche eating) yuppies got into the market >-( that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103226">
<answer instance="rec.autos103226" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i want to get a car alarm and i am thinking about getting an ungo box. does anyone out there have any knowledge or experience with any of these alarms? how about price ranges for the different models? are these good car alarms? please email me any responces. cak3@ns3.lehigh.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103227">
<answer instance="rec.autos103227" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the rubber drain plugs under my carpet in my mazda glc leaked like the ones are doing under your spare in the probe. i tooke them out and put some silicone sealant on them and put them back in. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103228">
<answer instance="rec.autos103228" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 it was called a bricklin. bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from ford. waitaminnit, didn't the bricklin have an pugeot six-cylinder? or am i confusing it with the delorean? i was sure the delorean had a v8. the delorean had the yucky prv v6 engine. a joint-venture between peugout (note spelling), renault and volvo. prv. this engine is a *mighty boring* markus, what is that we are noting about the spelling? that you aren't good at it? :^) that peugeot is out of n. america? what does this mean? roland, an intrigued peugeot admirer 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103230">
<answer instance="rec.autos103230" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i just ordered a saturn sl1 after considering a few imports. frankly, the saturn stuff deleted... saturn also has a good extended warranty program; $675 for 6 year/60k miles, fully refunded if you don't use it. that works out to an actual cost of $170 or so, based on the 6 year treasury rates. using savings account rates it's more like $120. in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work, without counting against the refund. --mike in general extended warranties are a ripoff. this 6yr/60k is really only 3yr/24k because you get the 3yr/36k one *free* with the car. also, is there perhaps a deductible you pay each and every time you use the warranty? also, are certain items excluded from coverage on the extended warranty? and if you use it at year 4 for some 60 buck job and pay a 50 deduct and then you have used it so no refund ever! again, extended warranties are ripoff, high profit items for the dealer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103231">
<answer instance="rec.autos103231" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 they are pretty much junk, stay away from them. they will be replaced next year with all new models. junk? they've made the c&d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration. they have been around since about, oh, 85 or 86, so they're not the newest on the lot, and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader. you can get into a 3.0 l v-6 (141 hp) shadow for $10~11k (the i-4 turbo a bit more), and a droptop for $14~15k. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103232">
<answer instance="rec.autos103232" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i wouldn't want anyone to make kindling out of my front living- room wall and then drive their diesel powered m-60 tank into it, shooting super-hot soot all over my curtains and that freshly made kindling. in other words, please don't flame me! yup, i'll have to answer for this one. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103233">
<answer instance="rec.autos103233" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 my wife and i looked at, and drove one last fall. this was a 1992 model. it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered. i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds. i have read that the new 1993 models have a newer, improved hp engine. i'm quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said "once it's broken in it will feel more powerful". i had been used to driving a jeep 4.0l 190hp engine. i believe the 92's land cruisers (land yachts) were 3.0l, the sames as the 4runner, which is also underpowered (in my own personal opinion). they are big cars, very roomy, but nothing spectacular. ( ___ )-----------------------------------------------------------( ___ ) | / | tom vervaeke email: tvervaek@cs.itc.hp.com | \ | | / | hewlett packard co. phone: 719-590-2133 | \ | |___| i love animals. they taste delicious. |___| (_____)-----------------------------------------------------------(_____) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103239">
<answer instance="rec.autos103239" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i can think of a few others, but what are your ideas and why? well, in my bmw i like the little light that turns on when you are running out of gas, it's a big help. if you got a turbo, that gauge is a must. if i could, i'd just like all the gauges possible on my car, but... we can't have everything can we? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103241">
<answer instance="rec.autos103241" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 : i'm looking at the following three suv's; anyone who's driven all : three have any strong opinions? : ford explorer : toyota 4runner : nissan pathfinder well, i was just in your position and i drove all three and liked all three. it was a toss-up. i marginally went with the pathfinder based on reliability and looks. i don't think you can go wrong with any of them. ---john jdenune@pandora.sdsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103242">
<answer instance="rec.autos103242" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 in <1qgi8einnhs5@skeena.ucs.ubc.ca> yiklam@unixg.ubc.ca (yik chong lam) writes does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment? should i turn clockwise or counter? i tried any kind of lubricants, wd-40,etc, but i still failed! do you think i can use a electric drill( change to a suitable bit ) to turn it out? if i can succeed, can i re-tighten it not too tight, is it safe without oil leak? you shouldn't need any power tools to undo it, an electric drill probably won't give you much extra torque anyway. wd40 will help things that are seized due to rust but this is unlikely for a drain plug. you should be able to undo it with a spanner. when it loosens, it will probably become very loose and you will bash your knuckles on the underside of the car - this is the price you must pay for doing you own work. no, that's the price you pay for not knowing how to use a wrench. you want to pull the wrench towards you, away from painful knuckle splitting hard things. if you can't pull it because things are in the way, push it with an open hand. i find this method much better myself, too, although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face. after coming to, which is about 15 minutes later, i change my clothes (because by this time all the oil has drained *on* me), and ice my entire face and suck down about 20 tylenol to ease the pain. later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil. it's just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend---i go through about 3 bottles of tylenol and 2 bags of ice. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103243">
<answer instance="rec.autos103243" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 : >: > help!!! : >: > my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. : >: fyi, just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they : >: thought were the best cars for '93. in the convertible category, the (snip, snip) : does porsche have a patent on the "targa" name? : i mean, convertible to me means "top down", which the del sol certainly : does not do. it has the center that lifts out. this is what i would : term a targa(unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that). i know : the rear window rolls down, but i still can hardly consider this car : to be a convertible. : drew here we go... no, of course porsche doesn't have a patent on the "targa" name. if that were the case, what would fiat do? i suppose that technically my del sol is not a "convertible" in the literal sense, but it certainly classifies as an open- topped car. in addition, the rear section behind the removable top is what makes my car _infinately_ safer than a convertible. (flame-retardant on ...) dspalme@mke.ab.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103244">
<answer instance="rec.autos103244" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 hi! this is my first time to post on this news group. now a days , i have stu there is a engine warning signal on the dash board. while driving, this si i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes. is anybody out there who low oil pressure, usually. could be your oil pump, or... checked your oil lately??? mchase@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (mark chase) the old frog's almanac (home of the almanac unix users group) (604) 245-3205 (v32) <public access usenet> (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) vancouver island, british columbia waffle xenix 1.64 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103251">
<answer instance="rec.autos103251" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 sorry for the mis-spelling, but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no-on hand reference here. is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep-wanna-be's? a replica would be great i think. greetings: you may be in luck. i seem to recall seeing a blurb in one of the kit car magazines about a company in norway who pulled a mould (sp?) off a real kubel, and has adapted it to the beetle floorpan. as for the suspension, all i can remember about the vw thing i used to own is that it had about 3" more suspension travel than a stock beetle, but i'd heard that there were after- market parts for off-road use that were as good or better. note that the major difference (looks wise) between a kubel & a thing are the hood and the fenders. the kubel had an external spare mounted *on* the hood, and the hood sloped down (for visibility?) sharply, and had rounded fenders. the thing has a lightly sloped hood with the spare mounted inside (unless moved to make for more luggage space...) and has half-hexagon shaped fenders (imagine a nut large enough to put a tire *in*, and cut off the bottom half of it...). unfortunately, i don't have that info anymore. try stopping at a local bookstore and copying down the phone numbers for the two big mag's and calling them. they might be able to get the number for you (don't forget to calculate the time difference to norway before calling...). ___==a==___ | quick bones, help me get | #include .---==== ( o ) ====---. | this klingon off my *ss! | <std/disclaimer.h> / ~~~~~~~~~~~ \ | damn it, jim, i'm a | () kking@cs.uah.edu () | doctor, not a bidet! :) | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103256">
<answer instance="rec.autos103256" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 save youself the cash. take it from a bmw mechanic. idiot lights are for just that. buy yourself a ballpoint pen and write it down yourself. change your oil every 3000 mi. and you will be just fine. follow the regular service intervals in you r book also. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103257">
<answer instance="rec.autos103257" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the villager-quest seem like the best of the cravan/voyager copies to <come along since the mazda mpv. the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima 4 speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train, and <the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered. only the price is hmm. the last time i checked, villager/quest does not have a maxima engine, and is very much under powered for its weight. --yes, it does come with the maxima gxe engine mated to the maxima se transmission. and it has decent power for a minivan also. check again. --aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu --why should i care? i'd rather watch drying paint. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103258">
<answer instance="rec.autos103258" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 yes, i saw a 200 turbo quattro wagon on i-287 in nj on monday. i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the 5000. this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own. i bet its price is 4-5 times my car budget. think again!! thanks to 60 minutes (tick tick tick), used 200 quattros are bargains.. '89s go for about $15k, '90s go for perhaps 1 or 2k more, the 20 valve 91's are quite a bit more because of an enormous hp and torque gain.. i think they go for about $23 to $25k if you can find one. i have seen quite a lot of '89-'90 200 quattros (not that many wagons though) at the dealer lot.. they use very high quality paint and the entire car is zinc galvanized, so it will never in short, typically a 4 yr old 200 looks no more older than a 1 year old and the 5 bangers are bullet proof engines. 200k out of one is not rare, even for a turbo, which is watercooled for the 200s. then there are aftermarket chips that you can buy to bump up turbo boost... if you are into luxo-gizmos.. the cars are loaded with just about everything too.. the price of parts is a different story though... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103259">
<answer instance="rec.autos103259" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 here is a story. i bought a car about two weeks ago. i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car. in between '91 and '92, the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero. therefore, the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage. that shows 35000 mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from. the dealer never told me anything about that important story. i hope that i can return the car with full refund. do u think this is possible? does anyone have similar experiences? any comments will be appreciated. thanks. this is a tricky situation; if the previous owner didn't inform the dealer of the odometer change, then the previous owner committed fraud, and he may be liable. the dealer may also be liable; if the previous owner notified the dealer, or if the previous owner had the dash replaced at a dealer, or if the previous owner had the dash changed legally, any records search on the car should turn up the fact that the odometer had been altered. if a dealer changes the speedometer, he has to report it (it goes into the car's service record with the manufacturer, and on the title, if i remember correctly; the dealer told me that the old mileage, etc. were sent to ford when my t-bird's speedo was replaced). if the odometer can be set to the old mileage, it must be; if it can't (eg, electrically-driven odometers) then the mileage of the old odometer must be written on a permanent sticker which is affixed to the door frame of the vehicle. either way, if the change had been done legally, then a records search (which the dealer almost certainly did) should have turned it up. call your state's department of transportation/public safety/motor vehicles--or your tag agent--to find out for certain what your rights are. your state's attorney general will know for certain ;-) james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103260">
<answer instance="rec.autos103260" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 x>> x>>>> fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs. x>>>> any gold trim. x > x>>> these, i will agree, are abominations, right along with the fake x>>>continental spare-tire kit -- it's sad watching those little old ladies x>>>try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire-medallion x>>>in the way. x>>> most pitiful fake convertible top: on a "cadillac" cimarron, with x>>>all the chrome door trim still visible -- not fooling *anyone*. x>>>of course, there was that hyundai excel i once saw... x>> least you think bad taste is something new: back in the early 1970s i saw a couple of cars with *flocked* paint jobs. thats not a typo. i think they sprayed on some kind of glue then blew on tiny pieces of nylon. it comes out looking like felt. can you picture a huge plymouth fury iii in dark blue felt? i think i can even remember one guy who did it in red to a early 1960s corvette. that was after he had turned it into a station wagon. mack costello <mcostell@oasys.dt.navy.mil> code 65.1 (formerly 1720.1) david taylor model basin, carderock division hq. nswc ___/-\____ bethesda, md 20084-5000 phone (301) 227-2431 (__________>| 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103261">
<answer instance="rec.autos103261" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 in a previous article, aas7@po.cwru.edu (andrew a. spencer) says: in a previous article, eliot@lanmola.engr.washington.edu (eliot) says: nice theory. too bad the mr2's never came with a four cylinder over 2.0 liters. more like 1.6. or did they? were the nonturbo mr2ii's 2.2 or some such? let me clarify, i think they both are 2.0 litres. i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders, must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design..like porsche's 3.0 i4... i was already corrected on this, and believe i may have been in errror, that it is actually mistubishi. apologies for butting into the thread. c ya 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103262">
<answer instance="rec.autos103262" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 it did it again. this morning, my 88 ford ranger was idling at 10,000 rpm. ok, so i exaggerated a little, but it was idling very fast. it has a 2 liter carburated engine in it, and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal (i don't think the linkage is stuck). what can i do to fix this problem? this has been a problem from time to time, but has straightened itself out - until now. i don't have a tach, but by gauging by the sound of the engine, it is idling about twice as fast as it should be. this is down from what it was idling at when i pulled up at a stop light. sometimes a bad choke pull-off diaphram will cause a car to fast idle. the pull-off, which is vacuum actuated, provides a necessary pull in non-cold weather conditions to get the idle off the the fast idle cam. locate the fast idle cam on your vehicle and see if you can rotate it to produce a normal idle. if so, locate the diaphram and test it. if you can't apply suction (via a good piece of rubber vacuum hose) with your mouth that will cause the diaphram to retract, then it's bad and should be replaced. bernie lofaso applied research labs 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103263">
<answer instance="rec.autos103263" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am in the market to buy a used car. i am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville. my budget is between 7- 8 thousand. would i be able to afford an 88 or 89. what engines were available at this time. i know they didn't redesign until the 1992 model year. how is the reliability of past models. i would appreciate any advice or information. neil gandler 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103265">
<answer instance="rec.autos103265" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend's 89 ford probe. every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood/carpet cover on the trunk. i would guess this usually after a good thunder storm. a few qs: 1) is this a common problem? 2) where are the drain holes located for the hatch? i noticed this is my '89 probe also, when recently cleaning out the back. i think the water is coming *up* through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare. mine looked slightly worn, and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area. this has taken a low priority since i just found out (while rotating my tires) that i have a torn cv boot - ugh!! i've got an 89 gt. it has the smoked taillight assembly. i think this is where the water is getting in. when i first got it (had it for a month), one of the rear taillights fogged up with moisture. i took it in to the dealer and they replaced the entire assembly. it happened to the other one about 3 months later. this time i happened to look in the spare tire well and noticed water standing in there. the dealer was more reluctant this time to replace it. but i convinced them to fix it. (they must have had to deal with a number of other probes with the same problem.) i haven't noticed water in the taillamps (or the trunk) for the last 2.5 years, but just last month, the taillamp just fogged up again. i'm going to try to take it back to get them to fix it again. i'm real tempted to drill some vent and drain holes in the tops and bottoms of the assembly and forget about it. this is getting very annoying. (almost every other `89 gt i've seen has had this problem.) -- vel natarajan nataraja@rtsg.mot.com motorola cellular, arlington hts il -- 
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 yeah, but i hate to follow them with the exhaust at ground level. not all diesels are well maintained, either, it seems they run for so long that people keep them going long after the top end is worn out. 
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 does anyone know how to reset the service indicator of a bmw after changing the oil yourself? also, i have about 3,000 miles on my 525i and so far only one of the five yellow service indicators went out. that means i don't need oil service until it reach approximatly 15,000 miles which doesn't make sense to me. any idea? ps of cause i did my first oil change at 1,200 miles 
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 back when i was building round tail light 2002s they were bimmers. it only when the (red suspendered, reganomics generated, quiche eating) got into the market >-( that they became beamers and the hood ornaments yep, that's when i noticed it too. i stopped replacing the hood badge after the second or third one (at $12.00 each). 2002 drivers used to flash their headlight at each other in greeting. try flashing your headlights at a 318i driver and see what kind of look you get. they usually check their radar detector...they think you're alerting them to a cop. 
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 |> as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while |> here in europe they are rare??? just wondering..... in many of our cities, there are traffic signals every 100 feet (unsynchronised, of course (well here in ottawa anyway)) and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot. also, most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually (gee, i gotta co-ordinate my two feet on the clutch, brake _and_ accelerator, and i gotta steer, shift _and_ operate the signals (optional) and radio with my two hands... duh... it can't be done). also, most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment, so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money. |> ___________________________________________________________________ ____/| |> john kissane | motorola ireland ltd., | \'o.o' |> uucp : ..uunet!motcid!glas!kissanej | mahon industrial estate, | =() ()= |> internet: kissanej@glas.rtsg.mot.com | blackrock, cork, ireland | u doug zolmer internet: dwjz@bnr.ca disclaimer: my opinions only 1 3 5 bell-northern research ltd. ottawa, ontario, canada |-|-| dept. 7n61 - service control point - routing services design 2 3 r 
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<instance id="rec.autos103279">
<answer instance="rec.autos103279" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 * attention all four wheel off road enthusiasts * * on/off road rally - sunday, april 25th * * joliet illinois * the event: * the joliet mud turtles, a chicago land four wheel drive club, is sponsoring an on/off road rally sunday april 25th. * for those who ask "what is an on/off road rally?", well... an on/off road rally consists of the following: 1. an on-the-road rally where participants are given a set of directions and clues guiding participates around the joliet/plainfield area. the object is to navigate a course based on a set of directions and clues. participants will be given a set of questions pertaining to the course which they must answer along the way. points are awarded for the number of correct answers given. directions will ultimately lead to an off-road area where a four-wheel drive course is set-up. at various locations in the on-road course, check-points will be set-up where participants will be asked other questions or requested to perform some activity (e.g. tire roll, truck tow, basketball free-throw, etc.) for additional points. 2. an optional off-road, four wheel drive course where participants will navigate off-road trails, mud bogs and/or hill climbs. points are awarded for successfully navigating off-road obstacles without getting stuck. if you should get stuck (which is half the fun anyway), there will be assistance to get your vehicle unstuck so you can try it again. the off-road course will divided up based on tire size, so stock 4x4s as well as modified 4x4s can run the course. at the end of the rally, trophies will be awarded to top scoring participants. door prizes and dash plaques will also be given out. food and drinks also available at the conclusion. * this is an organized activity sponsored by the joliet mud turtles so safety and fun is our foremost concern. all 4x4s must be street legal and have solid tow points for the off-road section of the course - we don't want to have to separate someone's bumper from their vehicle :) . the particulars: * rally begins at instant replay, 2409 plainfield road, joliet il. (815)436-9382 (see map below) * registration is between 9 and 10:30 a.m. first truck out at 10:00 a.m. * rally date is sunday april 25th, rain or shine * there is an entry fee of $10 per truck. * you must have a co-driver (passengers allowed) * a valid drivers license is required * suggested equipment: cb radio tow strap and clevis clip board and pencil * no alcohol during rally * for more information contact gary (815)727-3415 tom (815)485-9346 norm jr. (815)741-4853 brian (708)979-6083 instant /\ | replay | | \ | 1.9mi ___ | 1.2 mi | north rt30 | |___| | | exit | | | ^ 257 | | | | |rt55 |canton |larkin | | |farm |ave | | |rd. | | 3 mi. | rt80 | v | | exit | | 130b 
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 several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12. you don't hear about them because the mobile air conditioning (macs), that is, the people who stand to rake in that $300 to $1000 per retrofit per automobile, have mounted an organized campaign to squash r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether (on very technical grounds, at best, on outright lies at worst). now, i'm not saying you're wrong because i know that the r-12 substitutes exist, but this sounds a lot like the 200mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting. these substitutes exist, and at this time are available. its the future availability that is in doubt. 1) ghg-12 get it from people's welding supply 800-382-9006 2) butane/propane you can mix this yourself so no one can ever regulate it away. just make sure you use good quality (dry) gases. i don't know of any 200mpg carb distributors :-) jon hacker | get the os/2 2.1 march beta cd-rom caltech, pasadena ca | for $20 --- call 1-800-3-ibm-os2 hacker@tumbler-ridge.caltech.edu | read about it in comp.os.os2.beta 
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<instance id="rec.autos103281">
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 help!!! my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. we live in south fla., so we are definitely in the right are for one. my wife has mentioned the miata, but i think it is too small. i would like to wait for the new mustangs ( dec. '93 i think). anyone have any opinions on any/all convertibles in a reasonable price range. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103282">
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 since this posting, i've received no replies or followups, so i'm posting here hoping for the feedback i didn't get in rec.audio.car: article number - 9855 newsgroups: rec.audio.car path: cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!vinlai message-id: <1993apr13.202333.28657@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com organization: at&t distribution: na i recently saw a particular third party antenna on a new camry (not mine, but it caught my interest) and a new 626. it seems to replace the factory power antenna and is about a foot long made of plastic tubing. i have seen them on quite a few cars, but i can't find anything more about them in previous r.a.c articles nor in r.a articles. i'd like to know all i can, so any feedback is greatly appreciated. "mom, we're hungry!" - bud bundy "why tell me?" - peg bundy vincent lai vinlai@cbnewsb.att.com forwards mail to vlai@attmail.com which eventually winds up in wcmnja!lai@somerset.att.com 
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 in a previous article, tedebear@leland.stanford.edu (theodore chen) says: compare either to the porsche 911 and you tell me which was designed to go fast. you have a point about the brakes, especially seeing as how the mustang doesn't even have disc brakes in the back. but there are significant differences between the latest 911s and the late 80's 911s, not the least of which is handling. i'm not i think you mean late '60s. the biggest change that porsche undertook to alter the tailhappieness of their baby was way back in august 1968 (for the '69 model year) when they stretched the wheelbase. besides, some people actually _know_ how to take advantage of oversteer, and enjoy it. in europe. the 911 got low marks for high speed handling (though to be fair, they might have been comparing it to the vette's handling). what was that phil hill (famous race car driver) said about the you should have seen what phil hill (_*world champion*_) had to say about the vette's he's driven. 911 turbo? you can't make a thoroughbred out of a pig, but you can have an awful fast pig. yeah, that was what he said. :-) paul frere agreed. they both prefered the porsche (modified by ruf) to either of the vette's at that test. al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<instance id="rec.autos103284">
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 i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all "performance-type" cars (like the 5.0l mustangs, camaros, and the like) we'd cut down on the number of accidents each year. autos are fine for sedate little sedans, but they have no business in performance cars, imho. i have to disagree with this. i have a 92 z28 with a 350 and a 4-speed auto w/ overdrive, and it is really better that way. chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power. i live in the dallas area, and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here. now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to, a manual would be more fun. i don't know if it's as much an issue of their ablility to handle the power as it is the power they lose (in the torque converter, etc). safety-wise, an auto is less distracting...i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here. performance-wise, i can hold my own against any stock 5.0 mustang or 5.0 camaro w/ a five speed. however, if you encounter a '93 formula with 5.7l & 6-speed manual, you'll be sol, i'm afraid. ;) btw, i know of what i speak as a former owner of a 5.7l auto iroc (1989) and current owner of the aforementioned car... chris s. chris silvester | "any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss@sam.amgen.com | should by no means be allowed to do the job" chriss@netcom.com | - douglas adams, the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy 
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<instance id="rec.autos103293">
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 they light the highways in texas? funny, everywhere else i've been they only light 'em at junctions. and armadillo crossings. texas is pretty much an edge-case -- you can't assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition, such flat terrain, and such wide-open spaces. it just ain't so. well, let's see, in just my own _personal_ experience there's nevada, new mexico, texas, wyoming, utah, south dakota, nebraska, minnesota, montana, florida, and parts of louisianna. nobody said "let's go into town and drive 130 on main st." and you couldn't go that fast on the graveled washboard that passes for highway in some parts. but that "only really expensive cars should be driven fast" crap, is, well, crap... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103295">
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 i have a 92 toyota 4x4 and in the last few weeks i have been getting quite a few "dings" :( in the paint on the hood from rocks and debris off of the road. i have never had any major problems with other car/trucks in the past (maybe a ding once in a while). i went to the dealer and he said that it happens all of the time and he recomended putting a bug deflector on the hood. he said that the trucks, for some unknown reason, seem to have this problem more than some cars.? it seems to me that either my luck is really bad or there might be a problem with the paint (painted on a monday morning perhaps?). how well do these bug deflectors work for small road debris on trucks? if anyone has any experiences/suggestions please let me know, thanks. --greg thorn@wam.umd.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos103296">
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 i'm wondering if anybody else out there is a clutchless shifter? i've been doing it my self over 200,000 miles, on my current toyota truck i've got over 150k. i've heard people talk about how doing this can damage a transmission. my experiences suggest otherwise. what techniques do you use? on some old pieces of junk i drove, the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift, except clutchless. to date i've driven rabbits, datsuns, comets, fords & a chevy. some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker & easier they where to shift. my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever. if for some reason i miss the shift window, i lightly press the accelerator & try agian. i've found that clutchless shifting is eaiser/quicker at high rpms (4000-7000). i also skip gears some times using 1-3-5 ,1-2-4-5. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103299">
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 i just have got to remind all of you that this is it! yes, that's right, somtime this fall, ford (the granddaddy of cars) will be introducing an all-new, mega-cool way-too-fast-for-accord-drivers mustang. it's supposed to be 100% streamlined, looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january. i can't wait. anyone out there hear anything about it recently? if everything i've read is correct, ford is doing nothing but "re- skinning" the existing mustang, with minor suspension modifications. and the pictures i've seen indicate they didn't do a very good job of it. the "new" mustang, is nothing but a re-cycle of a 20 year old car. gee.... is it 1999 already? yes, it will still be on the fox program chasis, anything that will be differe nt on the new car as far as mechanical's is unknown. the suspension will most likely be changed, as well as the drive drain. from what has been printed on it, there is no clear idea of what will be done, as some say it will have the modular v8 and others the current small block... just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what i seen is good, a return to tradition. c scoop on the sides and roof line much like a '65 or '66 fastback. you know, i'm a ford fan, i must say, so i'm looking forward to the next mustang. i have faith that it will be a fine product, more desireable than the camaro is now. you know, that's mho. the differences these days between ford and gm are not so much the quality, just the philosophy. it used to be quality _and_ philosophy. gm is barely catching up, but they have more room for improvement that can only be made up in time. stss still come off the assembly line with screwed up paint stripes and poor trunk/door/hood/panel alignments; it's those 75 year old plants. and the latest gm products still come with the standard equipment rattledash (tm). but like i said, they're getting better and making the move in the right direction. they beat ford to the market with the camaro/firebird, but really only in words. production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year, keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there. i wouldn't press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it. besides, no bow-tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway. i do not put much stock in the mag rags' "inside" information, or even ford rep quotes. the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it's entirety. "inside" information had the taurus with a v8 and rear-wheel drive at one point. i wouldn't look for a simple re-paneled mustang, folks; you may be cheating yourself if you do. there's a lot of potential. ford hasn't released a new car without a 4-wheel is in 7 years. the mustang project has been brewing for at least 4, right? a 4-wheel is could happen. those modular v8's are out there, too. in the interest of cafe and competition, don't rule those out, either. your ignorant if you do. and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there, who really knows what it'll look like? the mach iii? doubt it. the next mustang will be ford's highest profile car. it attracts way more attention than the camaro/firebird because it's heritage is more embedded in the general public. don't lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that. i submit that the mustang will be a success. enough to elicit defensive remarks from some heavy camaro fans here. you know, intelligent, critical spews like, "the mustang bites, man!" some of you are already beginning. i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers, as usual. i predict that the differences will be in subjective areas like looks and feel, as usual. the camaro is still a huge automobile; the mustang will retain its cab-rearward styling and short, pony-car wheelbase. the camaro still reaches out to the fighter pilot, while the mustang will appeal to the driver. the camaro will still sell to the muscle car set, while the mustang will continue to sell to the college-degreed muscle car set. both will be more refined (i do think the camaro is). there will be no clear winner. unless the ford gets the 32v, 300hp romeo. you don't seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only, do you? bqueiser@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu i am the engineer, i can choose k. department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus, oh 
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 i think that it is technicaly known as a 180 degree vee configuration. (could be wrong....this is how i've seen them referred to) then what is a "flat-" engine??? flat = 180 deg v = horizonatlly opposed usually, it also equals "boxer," however, i think the term is traditionally reserved for 8's and 12's (and firing order matters). this was talked about here in r.a many months back; i can't remember the consensus. examples: ferrari's 512tr is a flat 12 boxer. porsche's 911 is a flat 6. subaru's impreza is a flat 4. bqueiser@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu i am the engineer, i can choose k. department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus, oh 
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<instance id="rec.autos103301">
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 you're actually worried about somebody stealing your oil? ahhh yes, andrew, we meet again... ...no, not 'stealing' the oil, just draining it as to leave me stranded. c'mon, you think a vandal'll do that?! let me guess, you're from hudson ohio?? hey! what's this hudson crap? actually, the only place my car has ever been broken into was in hudson at my in-laws (in their driveway). took my vuarnets and some change. damn kids. bqueiser@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu i am the engineer, i can choose k. department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus, oh 
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<instance id="rec.autos103302">
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 excerpts from netnews.rec.autos: 24-apr-93 honda mailing list? by james b. atkins@prism.ga is there a honda mailing list, and if so how do i subscribe to it? if you look at their magazine ads, they may have a phone number to call and you can ask for a catalog or to be on the list, etc. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103306">
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 i was whatching the history of the indy 500 the other day, and early in the film, around the '10-'20's, a name, lois chevrolet, came out of the blue. i wanted to know if he is the chevrolet founder or mearly a driver who's name was called the same as the other guy's?:^) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103308">
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 i offered to relay this information for a ham friend of mine without internet access: his name is robert (bob) wondolowski, n1kda, and his car was a 1985 brown cutlas sierra sedan, massachusetts plate 716adl. his ht (yaesu ft415) and mobile antenna were also included in the car. it was stolen from lynn, mass. about 10 days ago (being on april 6). if anyone has any information about the car's whereabouts, please e-mail thank you for taking the time to read this message. | scott ehrlich internet: wy1z@world.std.com | | amateur radio: wy1z packet radio: wy1z@k1ugm.ma.usa.na | | scott ehrlich internet: wy1z@world.std.com | | amateur radio: wy1z packet radio: wy1z@k1ugm.ma.usa.na | 
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<instance id="rec.autos103309">
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 o subaru service manuals ................................... $10.00 this is not a complete set, but includes sections 4, 5 & 6 which cover mechanical components (suspension, wheels & axles, steering, brakes, pedals & control cables, heater & ventilator, air conditioning), body (body & exterior, doors & windows, seats, seat belts, interior, instrument panel), and electrical (engine electrical system, body electrical system, wiring diagram, and trouble-shooting). these are the genuine subaru issue manuals. they are for model year 1986, but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well. and, as long as i'm posting (end of car stuff), o miscellaneous darkroom equipment ........................ $75.00 solar enlarger (several objective lenses) with easel and timer, negative carriers for 35mm and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4, misc. printing masks. developing tanks, thermometer, trays, constant-temperature bath, ground glass, mirrors, darkroom lamps, glassware, el-cheap-o tripods..... and (as they say) much more! o beautiful antique buffet ............................... $1500.00 solid cherry (no veneer). handmade, with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers. built (we think) around 1880. not gaudy or covered with gew-gaws; a simple, elegant piece of furniture, but too big (60" long, 37" tall, 24" deep) for our little cape cod house. will deliver pricier items (ie, over $10) anywhere in the rochester area. (and will consider delivering the others.) will deliver any of it on uofr campus between now and graduation. call or e-mail: paul or mary (716) 359-2350 (just south of rochester, ny) plkg_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu 
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 a list of options that would be useful. they can be existing options on a car, or things you'd like to have... 1) tripmeter, great little gadget. lets you keep rough track of mileage, makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge... 2) full size spare 3) built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors. 4) a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running, and plug ins in the trunk, engine compartment and cabin. feel free to add on... ok... 5) how about a fuel gauge that *really* told you how much fuel was left. like, "can i make it to where the gas is $1.14 or should i get gouged right here at $1.35?" accurate to the tenth of a gallon would be great. | | on contract to: | | gk khalsa | ncr engineering and manufacturing | |....................| 16550 w. bernardo dr. | | (619) 485-2460 | san diego, ca 92127 | !.................g.k.khalsa@sandiego.ncr.com.................! 
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 but they can put out a lot of particulate matter. i heard something about legislation being discussed to "clean up diesel emissions". is there anything in the works to install "scrubbers" for diesels? how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars? would it be any different than a catylitic converter? i'd assume easier, since we're removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses. let's hear people's opinions... the technology cummins is applying to diesels to comply with the newer ca. emissions laws involves three things i know of: 1. all compliant diesels are turbocharged. 2. all use an "aftercooler", which cools the air which was heated by compression by the turbocharger (up to about 25 psi). 3. a gismo on the injector pump which senses the pressurized air intake, and limits full delivery of fuel while the pressure is no scrubbers, catalytic converters, etc, are used. the path from the turbocharger to the exhaust outlet is kept very free. interestingly, except for the low-pressure fuel limitation, power output and mileage are enhanced by these measures. one can buy aftermarket turbos and aftercoolers which generate more power, lots more power, and these are approved by the carb. dan hepner 
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 organization: hp information networks, cupertino, ca path: eclipse!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcss01!hpindda!jimb newsgroups: rec.autos references: <185900001@hpindda.cup.hp.com> lines: 16 it's nice to know that i'm not alone out there when it comes to clutch, etc problems on late model hondas. if i get a few more supportive responses i will take them to my local honda dealer or maybe send them to the regional rep in southern calif. for their input on the problem. maybe some group pressure from honda owners can be placed on honda to find a solution, such as a retrofit of the clutch?? or, maybe i'll just sell the blasted vehicle and go back to driving my 10 year old pick-up which was (now fixed) having clutch problems and caused me to look for what i thought would be a trouble-free solution. ya sure. not to put down honda or anything - the accord has performed flawlessly in all other areas for its 16,000 miles. as it is said "out of all this something will develop!" later folks. not alone at all. my old 83 accord (now in the hands of a sibling) has a much better engagement of the clutch. even the old 84 civic we keep as a beater feels better in this aspect. note that these are cars with 250,000 kms and 140,000 kms respectively. my 90 prelude blows both of them away in every respect except smooth clutch engagement. of course the kawasaki is the best of the bunch but i need more than 2 wheels most of the time. the prelude has had a dud clutch from day 1, and after three years and 67,000 kms is no better. best of luck and feel free to add this to your collection. jeff goss 
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<answer instance="rec.autos103315" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary. i have an 86 toyota corolla sr5, with 94000 and i am in the only if you want to stop. seriously though, every 2 years you should have this done. brake fluid absorbs water over time, the water becomes steam when the fluid gets hot, and steam compresses. you'll also have better luck with the longevity of master cylinder, calipers and brake jeff goss 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103320">
<answer instance="rec.autos103320" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 examples: ferrari's 512tr is a flat 12 boxer. porsche's 911 is a flat 6. subaru's impreza is a flat 4. i think you got it the other way round: the ferrari flat 12 is a 180 degree v12 and not a "true" boxer, while the subaru and porsche are true boxers. don't know about the vw bug though, but i suspect that it is also a true boxer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103321">
<answer instance="rec.autos103321" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hey all, i'm looking at buying a new car, but i'm confused about the insurance coverage. this also applies to my existing car insurance policy. does anyone understand what the "limited tort option" means. will it lower my rates if i opt to have it, or will it be more expensive if i opt to have it? what does it do for me (in layman's terms please)? is it a good deal or should i ignore it? i'm not the type to sue anyone at a drop of the hat nor am i the type to report every little ding to the insurance company as a vandalism claim. please help. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103327">
<answer instance="rec.autos103327" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 for sale: 1981 oldsmobile omega four door. gray, power windows, power steering, power brakes, remote trunk release. starts reliably and runs well, but needs some work. $400 obo. for details, email or (708)864-0526. michael a. atkinson | there is no try, there is only dew. asbestos@nwu.edu | a libertarian and an nra member. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103328">
<answer instance="rec.autos103328" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if the noise really bugs you, there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v6. perhaps a nice used '88 pontiac fiero gt? 2.8 liters. does anyone know if the motor mounts for the 2.8 and the twin-dual-cam 3.4 liter match? the 3.4 is supposedly derived from the pushrod 3.1, which was a punched out 2.8 liter. should be a drop-in replacement, eh? 205 horses in a mid-engine the size of a fiero? larry smith (smith@ctron.com) no, i don't speak for cabletron. need you ask? liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want, it is the freedom to do whatever we are able. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103329">
<answer instance="rec.autos103329" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 radar (radio association defending airwave rights) says that geico insurance not only buy's radar for police but also actively lobbies states to promote making radar detectors illegal. i think the buying part is a misuse of money but the radar detector part shows how little they know about the issue. no study i am aware of has ever concluded that detectors have a negative impact on safety or that users have a higher average speed. incompetence by geico? i think troy wecker troy@sequent.com sequent computer systems beaverton, or i'm considering switching to geico insurance, but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim. i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim. i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident. i've read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts (i'm not sure where). 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103331">
<answer instance="rec.autos103331" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 are there any mr2 owners or motor-head gurus out there, that know why my mr2's engine sounds noisy? the mr2's engine is noisy at the best of times, but not even a nice nose - it's one of those very ugly noises. assuming yours is a non turbo mr2, the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline 4 that doesn't have balance shafts. i guess toyota didn't care about "little" details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling. myself, i automatically cross out any car from consideration (or recommendation) which has an inline 4 larger than 2 liters and no balance shafts.. it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine. if the noise really bugs you, there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v6. eliot is right about 2.2 liter engine in the second (and last) generation mr2's. but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr2. if it's a first generation car (like my '85), it has 1.6 liter engine (or perhaps same engine with a supercharger, if it's '87 -'89). the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard. i don't know the relevance of his observations about oil changes, my simply makes noise. not all that annoying, mind you. but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear :-) mike.s 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103333">
<answer instance="rec.autos103333" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 on the subject of the upcoming new mustang: i do not put much stock in the mag rags' "inside" information, or even ford rep quotes. the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it's entirety. "inside" information had the taurus with a v8 and rear-wheel drive at one point. i wouldn't look for a simple re-paneled mustang, folks; you may be cheating yourself if you do. there's a lot of potential. ford hasn't released a new car without a 4-wheel is in 7 years. the mustang project has been brewing for at least 4, right? a 4-wheel is could happen. those modular v8's are out there, too. in the interest of cafe and competition, don't rule those out, either. your ignorant if you do. and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there, who really knows what it'll look like? the mach iii? doubt it. the next mustang will be ford's highest profile car. it attracts way more attention than the camaro/firebird because it's heritage is more embedded in the general public. don't lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that. the car magazines have printed a lot of information about the new mustang and the consensus about what to believe in my "car circle" is that the suspension pieces and tuning will be almost identical to the current cobra, but on a stiffer body structure which will improve its behavior. after the mn12 (thunderbird) cost and weight debacle, ford decided independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive won't be tried again in a volume car. the current 4.9l v-8 will soldier on for about two years. a version of the 32 valve modular v-8 in the mark viii could be offered then. ford is spending big money tooling up for 2.5l and 3.5l v-6 engines which will power most of their cars in the immediate future, and therefore probably do not consider volume production of 300 hp v-8 engines a priority. undisguised, the car looks ok, but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro/firebird, imo. i suspect ford will produce their car with higher quality than gm will achieve with the camaro/ firebird. the way gm loses money, the temptation to "just get them out the door" for the sake of positive cash flow will be great once demand really takes off. tim gardner 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103336">
<answer instance="rec.autos103336" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it was called a bricklin. bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from ford. waitaminnit, didn't the bricklin have an pugeot six-cylinder? or am i confusing it with the delorean? i was sure the delorean had a v8. the delorean used the peugot/renault/volvo v6 in a rear engine configuration. the bricklin use some 'merkin iron in a front engine/rear drive configuration. steve valin steve@sgi.com i've just had my brain washed and i can't do a thing with it 
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<instance id="rec.autos103338">
<answer instance="rec.autos103338" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ashtrays and cigarette lighters. these should be an *option*. nancy j. feagans (818) 306-6423 jet propulsion lab nancy@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov "not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights. the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens. al h. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103339">
<answer instance="rec.autos103339" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines. v4 - i don't know of any. v6 - legend, mr3? mr6? v8 - don't know of any. v12 - jaguar xjs please add to the list. ssave@ole.cdac.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103341">
<answer instance="rec.autos103341" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 [much discussion about economics of safety deleted] safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car. i won't buy a small car like a civic or whatever. great = safety + handling + speed - for me seems to me that you would be more "dead" in a small car than a large car after an accident. this is a very simplistic view of safety. assuming that you are in a collision (less likely with a more agile smaller car), then the important factor is how well does the car sacrifice itself to save you. this is why a thousand pound f1 car can hit a wall at 200 and the driver walks out and why everybody dies when a suburban hits a wall at 35 (as i recall for the last generation suburban hic numbers). as an aside, just what is the point of an airbag? it seems to me that seatbelts with pretensioners (audi et al), or a good tight 5 point belt will prevent you every moving far enough to hit the airbag. you might be saved from some flyign glass? or is an airbag just a lowest common denominator safety device that is of some use in a head on collision when you are wearing no seat belt? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103343">
<answer instance="rec.autos103343" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am a little confused on all of the models of the 88-89 bonnevilles. i have heard of the le se lse sse ssei. could someone tell me the differences are far as features or performance. i am also curious to know what the book value is for prefereably the 89 model. and how much less than book value can you usually get them for. in other words how much are they in demand this time of year. i have heard that the mid-spring early summer is the best time to buy. neil gandler 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103344">
<answer instance="rec.autos103344" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have both an '84 and an '86 camry, each with manual 5-speed transmissions. the '84 has about 105,000 miles on it and the '86 about 83,000 miles. about a year ago i found that the master cylinder on the clutch in the '84 was leaking fluid around the piston seal, leading to air in the system and fluid back into the passenger compartment of the car. i pulled the plunger and got a rebuild kit (new plunger, seal, etc.) and thought i had the problem licked. much to my surprise, the same problem developed several months later! this time i looked carefully at the master cylinder to make sure there were no scratches, burrs, or other obvious causes of the problem. i didn't find any. ever since i have been periodically feeding the clutch hydraulins additional fluid and bleeding air from the system. i knew i would be selling the car and didn't want to go all the way to solving the i should add that the clutch is original, and that i've had to adjust the pedal to allow maximum extension of the piston into the master cylinder in order to actuate the clutch. my hypothesis is that this means that when fully depressing the clutch pedal, the angle of the piston rod (attached to the pedal) is off the axix of the cylinder, thus cocking the piston and seal and perhaps deforming it. what do you think of that as an explanation? can you suggest a possible fix short of replacing the master cylinder and getting a new clutch put in? now the '86: same problem, except that the above diagnosis doesn't explain why all of the fluid leaked out (by way of the master cylinder, into the passenger compartment) while i was on vacation for 10 days, during which the clutch pedal was not depressed or otherwise caused to distort. what can you suggest here? many thanks. let's hope i don't end up going to click and clack on this... bill christens-barry cerulean@access.digex.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103346">
<answer instance="rec.autos103346" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 having recently purchased a 93 probe with clear-coat paint, i would like to give it a good wax job. what is the best type of wax to use for this type of finish? is paste or liquid better? i would be waxing it by hand, and buffing it by hand, i guess using cheesecloth to buff it (anything better you would suggest?). i've heard comments here before about things like turtle wax and raindance not being very good, so i'm wondering what is recommended for a quality finish. thanks in advance. bill heiser heiser@acs.bu.edu, heiser@world.std.com boston university, boston ma 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103347">
<answer instance="rec.autos103347" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i want to start of list for syclone and typhoon owners. if you are interested in participating, please contact me via e-mail. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103351">
<answer instance="rec.autos103351" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above 80 meaning they would be safe at 55-65. roads like the autobahn are smoother, straiter, wider and slightly banked. well, that's news. before 1975 the speed limit on texas highways was 75. the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike (i-95) was 70. there were no speed limits in nevada or montana. i guess i wasn't clear enough here. i said the roads were designed for speeds of 80 or so and still be safe. the current 55-65 will add a saftey actually, the roads were designated as safe at 80 when they were built in the 1950's taking into account the kinds of cars then available. the number would be much higher today because the cars, tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot. i believe the interstates were origionally funded as part of a national defense plan etc. the requirements were to move heavy army trucks at still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling 155 mph and 65 mph on the same 3 to 4 lane road. around washington dc they can't keep traffic flowing at 55. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103352">
<answer instance="rec.autos103352" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 after too many years of school i'm finally graduating and getting a real job. of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money. right now i have an 89 accord, a good car, but not real sporty & i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around $20k on a sports car of some kind. after thinking about it, i may have a better idea -- i'll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i've always wanted -- a corvette stingray. my reasoning is that $8000 (accord)+ $8000 (corvette) =$16000 is less than what i would spend anyway. basically, i'm thinking of a late 70's, early 80's for around $7-$10k. my question is, what are good years to consider (for reliability, looks, horsepower -- in that order, believe it or not, horsepower is not a main concern, if i want to go fast, i get on my motorcycle) and what are good prices? '63 to '82 vettes had the same basic chassis. 1980 add aluminum (weaker) rear 'axle' housing. all these years used same brakes, similar springs etc late 70's was a bad year for gm reliability. catastrophic converter was added in 1975. cheapest corvette '78 to '79 low end about 4k tops out about $12k except for those morooons that think there '78 indy / 25th aniversity vette is special. these guys have been known to ask 25k. i don't think they get it best buy: convertables 69 - 74. i got my 69 for 5k - needs body work but i'm willing. parts for all are readily avail at swap meets and mail order etc. v-8 reliability / looks / independant suspension / 4 wheel disk and all under 10k. and they thought a miata was a good deal. also, what would insurance look like? i'm male, single, 23 (i might wait until i'm 25 to get the car = lower insurance). would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it? is there some type of "classic car" or "rarely driven" insurance class for driving it under 10k miles per year? my dad has a 66 vette and its on what you say 'classic insurance'. basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time, which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage. my origional inquires to my insurance agent: i can drive my '69 convertable for 3000 miles or less per year, i must keep it in a locked garage and it will cost me 2% of the stated value per year (does this sound right?). i've also been looking at vettes recently, and found a '67 convertible that i like at a dealer. i currently own an '88 ford escort gt, which is insured through state farm. i called em up, and asked about the rates: if i sell the escort, the vette insurance is $401.16 per 6 months. if i keep the escort, the vette insurance is $308.82 per 6 months. the escort's insurance goes down by 10%, to approx $320 per 6 months. i'm 28, male, and have a "good driver" discount. another variable would be where you live. best bet is to just call up some insurance brokers, and get a quote. state farm says they base the price on the "fair market value" of the car, which is determined by an outside apprasier. they look in the newspaper, and call up dealers to find out what the going rate is, and adjust it for the condition of the car. to get the values above, they went on the selling price of the car. the dealer's asking price is $21,900; i need to do research to find out if this is reasonable. in any case, i told state farm the value was $20k. get an appraiser to look at the car. he will check serial numbers and look for origional equipe. depending on what mods have been done the car could be worth only 10k. problems like wrong engine / trans. wrong paint type ( vetts used lacquer) an modification would reduce tthe value. but your looking for a car to drive right? this sounds like a ball park price for a small-block (327 cu in.) / manual / no air car. a 427 would put it closer to $30k. get it appraised!!! for insurance purposes also. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103354">
<answer instance="rec.autos103354" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 help!!! my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. we live in south fla., so we are definitely in the right are for one. my wife has mentioned the miata, but i think it is too small. i would like to wait for the new mustangs ( dec. '93 i think). anyone have any opinions on any/all convertibles in a reasonable price range. the olds supreme convertible got high marks in c/d's recent test, if you can get by the stupid body moldings and stuff. the saab 900 ragtop may be out of your range, but its a good choice. is there a new f-car convertible? the nissan 240sx convertible is a nice car also... those immediately come to mind... chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu ******************************neil peart, (c)1981***************************** *"quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand, ignorance and prejudice* *and********fear********walk********************hand*********in*********hand"* 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103361">
<answer instance="rec.autos103361" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 probably the most famous v16 is the one cadillac made from about 1925 to 1935. they had to scale down then because the great depression really put the crimp on luxury cars. it had 452 cubic inches with over two hundred horse power. "they don't make them like they used to." there were others though. packard had one until about 1930 whe it down sized to their legendary twin-six, their mainstay for the next twenty years. lincoln and pierce arrow might have also had one but i am not two sure. most luxury and semi-luxury cars of this era at least experimented with v16 if they did not actually produce them. there was actually a "cylinder war" among the big three to see who could produce the biggest engine. big m standard disclaimer applies, because i can't think of anything wittier. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103362">
<answer instance="rec.autos103362" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 review of 1989 ford taurus sho -- by gene kim background: last week, i bought a 1989 ford taurus sho, moving up from driving a 1987 toyota celica st and a 1975 oldsmobile cutlass. i have been interested in buying a sho for about five months and have been combing the classifieds in denver and chicago every week. i bought a remarkably clean maroon/red sho with 92k miles on it for $6800. as far as i can tell, this is about $2000 under blue book and i still have another 8000 miles before the extended service plan runs out. as one should with any pre-1991 shos, i made sure that the car was already refit with the upgraded clutch and pressure plate, as well as having been recalled for upgraded rotors and seatbelt attachments. however, my sho does not have the newer rod shifter -- i understand i can get this for $230 from any ford service center. in addition, the car received the full tune-up at 60k miles, receiving new platinum plugs and valve adjustment. for a car with 92k miles on it, the car was virtually immaculate. the clearcoat paint job was devoid of any large chips or dents, although the front air-dam/molding was covered with lots of small scratches -- not surprising since most of the miles were spent on the having driven a smaller two-door coupe for so long, i was a bit concerned about whether i could get used to driving a larger car. to my surprise, the size of the car doesn't bother me at all -- it seems just as nimble as my celica! (no comparisons with my oldsmobile. :-) visibility from the driver's seat is excellent, helped mostly by of the small the quarter-windows, aft of the back-seat door windows and in front of the c-pillar and rear window. parallel parking is a bit more difficult, but other than that, i love the size. in fact, i'm starting to appreciate the large trunk as i pack up for a 14-hour drive to washington, dc for the summer. more on the ride later in this review. engine: as with anyone even slightly interested in shos, i was very interested in the 24-valve 3.0l yamaha "shogun" engine. i was not disappointed. base performance of the engine under 4000 rpms is good. you can even do reasonable launches from second gear, although i don't make a practice of this. the engine revs smoothly and eagerly -- tooling around town does not require many shifts. this is good since the shifter is definitely one of the weakest points of the car. (more on this later.) while the performance of the engine under 4000 rpms may be unremarkable, it undergoes a jekyll/hyde transformation once you hit higher revs. at 4500 rpms, a butterfly valve opens and you can literally hear and feel the geometry of the engine changing as twelve more valves open up. the engine soars to its 7000 rpm redline, and you are treated to, in my opinion, the sweetest sounding v6 around. the engine inexplicably sounds overjoyed to be at 6500 rpm! i've noticed that when i drive around town, i constantly watch the tach to see how far below 4000 rpm i am. to go from 2000 rpm to 4000, you may have to punch the accelerator -- while torque is more than adequate, it doesn't come fully online until those other 12 valves are used. transmission: when _car and driver_ first reviewed the car in 1988, they marvelled at how ford had put such a wimpy clutch and balky shifter into the car. i remember driving a friend's parent's sho in 1990, and remember thinking about whether i had the leg strength to drive the car in traffic -- the clutch was that stiff. that was back then. the entire clutch assembly on my sho has been replaced under a ford recall in 1991. the clutch on the sho feels no stiffer than the one on my toyota celica. in fact, the friction point seems a bit larger and more forgiving. when playing with the shifter with the car parked, the shifter felt very reasonable. the 1-2 and 3-4 gates were where you'd expect it to be, and the shifting action was smooth. on the road, it's much the same -- but you have to shift slowly! make no mistake, it's a clumsy shifter. when hurrying shifts, like when i was initially trying to impress friends, i consistently miss the 1-2 shift, often grope clumsily for the 2-3 shift, and sometimes even muff the 3-4 shift. i find this pretty amazing in a car like this. it also took me several days to realize that you get the smoothest shifts when you take your time. seems obvious, but compared to my toyota and my friend's honda, this seems atrocious and clumsy. someone on rec.autos noted that crxs should blow shos off-the-line because of the incredibly clumsy shifter. i now shift much more sedately, and the shifter seems more reasonable. when you play within these bounds, the shifter works smoothly with no surprises. i don't know whether the rod shifter upgrade would help at all. along these same lines, i initially had trouble shifting gears smoothly. again, slowing down the shifts and taking more care to match revs when letting out the clutch helped immensely. this took several days for me to get the hang of. (i think some of my problems were because i've never had a car with enough power to balk at bad shifts in higher gears.) occasionally, i have trouble shifting into reverse. the shifter refuses to enter the gate, and i often grind the synchros trying to get it into gear. i'll be watching this carefully in the next couple of months. a quirk: when i upshift and the engine drops back to 1000-2500 rpm, i hear a whirring and then a grinding noise coming from the the engine compartment. not terribly loud, but the passenger can definitely hear it. i asked about it when i was looking at the car, as do all my passengers. apparently, this is a definitely a "sho sound" and is the gearbox -- apparently called "gear rollover". replies to my queries on rec.autos are at the end of this review. exterior: as i mentioned before, i am astounded by how well the body of this sho has stood up. paint chipping on the front bumper and grille are virtually non-existent. looking at how older tauri sometimes don't age so gracefully, i wonder what the guys at ford did differently to the sho bodies. the body, in my opinion, is extremely attractive with matching color body moldings than the stock tauri. for some odd reason, the sho seems different enough from vanilla tauri to get stares at stoplights -- of course, this could be my overactive imagination. :-) shos get fog lights, a more open grille, a completely monochromatic exterior, and a deeper ground skirt in the back with "sho" stenciled in relief. i've seen a couple shos whose owners have colored these in with florescent colors or in black. yuck. i don't think the car is flashy. i like it that way. i feel almost anonymous with all those tauri out there, but different and distinctive enough to those of us who care. :-) interior: the interior is what really makes me feel like i don't deserve the car. the seats are grey leather, the steering wheel and shifter are covered with black leather, and the entire instrument panel is done in a black/grey/metallic scheme. the instrumentation is stock taurus, except for the 140 mph speedo and 8000 rpm tach. you get a center console with two cupholders, a large compartment under the radio (great for a cd player), an armrest that contains yet another compartment, three appropriately sized coin holders for tollways (i think), and a compartment for holding cassette tapes. there's map-holders in the doors, and an oddly small glove compartment. i spilled a whole can of coke in the cupholder and was delighted to find that the entire rubber holder can be removed and washed in a sink. hey, i'm really impressed with the ergonomics and thoughtfulness that went into its design. and it's a 1989, before the interior was upgraded! the backseat is bigger than any car i've had. why do they need so much space? :-) (no smart-ass comments, please. :-) the driver and passenger seat have lumbar and side bolsters. from what i hear, it's not uncommon for the side bolsters to show wear. mine is no exception. the left side bolster on the driver's has cracked and i'm not convinced the right bolster is inflating all the a big surprise for me: i forgot that shos don't have a normal hand parking brake. instead, they have the regular parking brake that you press with your left foot. too bad. again, i'm getting used to it, but it seems a bit anachronistic to me. ride: the suspension is nice and stiff. too stiff? it's stiffer than any car i've had. a friend's new 1993 toyota celica st seems tauter and is still able to soak up bumps better. the sho seems stiffer with less ability to soak up bumps. driving over railroad tracks is a noisy and jarring affair. on the other hand, taking turns feels wonderful because the body is so rigid and doesn't flex at all -- i listened for that before i bought the car. on the highway, the ride is great. when i drove the car from chicago back to purdue, i had trouble keeping under 85 mph, let alone from trying to see what 100 mph really feels like. it's a relatively quiet ride, but the sunroof rattles. i've tried to find out what exactly makes all the noise up there, but it seems to be the window that rests on the rails. no easy way to get rid of it, i think. over the past three days, i've oscillated between thinking the suspension is wonderful and perfect and thinking that the ride is way too rough. (not for me, mind you. but i wonder whether i would advise my dad to buy one for himself.) but, i've discovered, as with the shifter, if you take your time with shifts, you'll have no reason to complain. let me explain... the ride is worst when turning and applying lots of power to the wheels. i feel the wheels scrabbling for traction and torque steer making the car skitter left and right. after i understood this, i avoid the limits of traction -- and i'm a happy camper again. it's not body rigidity, but the composure of the car. as if matching the suspension, the steering feel is quite heavy. my first impression of driving my sho was how hard you had to turn the wheel at highway speeds. it tracks straight as an arrow, but when driving around a parking lot, the high-effort steering didn't seem so useful. however, it's reasonable, but it doesn't communicate the road to the driver as well as a 1993 ford probe gt. imho, it's much better than the steering on my celica st. i wonder how bad this car is during winter? miscellaneous notes: gripes: the rattles from the sunroof is intermittent -- some days it rattles loudly, other days i look up wondering where all the noise went. activating the sunroof is sometimes very noisy -- loud squealing as it retracts on its rails. i wonder if there is a quick fix for this. again, other days it completely disappears. (function of humidity?) once i made the connection between the sometimes awful feeling suspension and torque steer, i've never complained about ride. i wish the seats had more support under the thighs. also, i wish the side bolsters would close more tightly. i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive. i currently have goodyear gt+4s that cost the previous owner $500 for four. i used to hate the ford stereo systems -- whose idea was it to use a volume *paddle*? now, to my amazement, i don't really mind... and sometimes think it's an okay idea!!! pretty ridiculous, though. getting up to 4000 rpm sometimes seems to be a chore. but, this is no big deal. there is more than enough torque down low. i often goof up the shifting when driving with friends. it took me a couple of days before i could really shift smoothly from 2nd to 3rd gear. (hard to believe, isn't it?) my car has almost 93,000 miles on it. my parents noted that it is almost impossible to find a low-mileage sho. astute observation, imho. i wonder how long i can make my sho last -- i just bought a book titled "drive it forever" for tips in this department. :-) the goofy parking brake pedal still throws me for a loop. i once parked the car in gear, and then accidentally let out the clutch after i started it. the car jolted forward, and bounced off the car in front of me -- no paint damage at all, but starting the car is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal! also, i began to wonder how strong that brake really is. (today, i backed out of parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed the glowing brake light. oops.) the driver's power window creaks when closed all the way. the same thing happens in my parents 1989 mercury sable. oddly, all the other windows work smoothly. likes: i'm liking the interior amenities more and more each day. the cupholders are great. i didn't expect to use the keyless entry buttons so much, but it really is handy. you can lock all the doors by pressing the 7/8 and 9/10 buttons together! neat! and you can never lock yourself out of the car. i really feel like i don't deserve this car. i really can't believe that i could afford it. i got this car ten years ahead of schedule. :-) i love this car so much that i've been telling my parents to look into buying one. i love this car so much that i wrote this 13k file -- i meant to write a couple of lines and ended up with this. if there were a j.d. powers survey for used car owners, i would have an opportunity to express my incredible satisfaction of owning this car. i don't like thinking about getting another car, but at this point in time, i'm sure i'd buy another sho. for under $7000, you can't beat it. (next time with an airbag and abs, though.) insurance-wise, this car is also a big win. i pay the same premiums as on my 1987 toyota celica -- despite that it has nearly twice the horsepower. other odds and ends: much to my amazement, there is no sho mailing list anywhere. maybe because the _sho registry_ publication has filled this void. i haven't joined yet, but i've noticed that queries about shos still appear on rec.autos about once a month. owners of shos are always quick to respond, and are very vocal fans of the cars. (maybe some of the most vocal on rec.autos. :-) i've put together the responses to my questions about the cars, as well as other posts with useful information on these cars. i'll be posting this in the form of a faq soon. if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list, please speak up! i don't know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one, but maybe someone out there does. gene kim (genek@mentor.cc.purdue.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103366">
<answer instance="rec.autos103366" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the best auto-shifters on the street (and not the track) are those from porsche... they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn.... a few years back a was in a 200sx auto (you guys call it a 240sx [without turbo]) and was going round a corner.... i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards! the other drivers seemed quite amused ;-) ....shaz.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103367">
<answer instance="rec.autos103367" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i just wanted to know: to wheelspin in an auto, you keep the gear in n - gas it - then stick the gear in d... i've never tried this but am sure it works - but does this screw up the autobox? we're having a bit of a debate about it here... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103369">
<answer instance="rec.autos103369" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 v6 - legend, mr3? mr6? honda: prelude (?) nope. 4 cylinder. v8 - don't know of any. you didn't try very hard: lexus, infinty: several of each i wasn't aware that there was another infiniti with a v-8 besides the q45. bmw: one model (5-series?) several. the 740i, 730i, 540i, 530i. (4.0 liter and 3.0 liter v-8) mercedes: one or two models one or two? there's at least one v-8 for every platform except the compact (190e). s-class (400sel, 500sel), w124 (400e, 500e), and roadster (500sl). acura: one model (can't remember the name right now) acura doesn't have any v-8 cars at the moment. v12 - jaguar xjs bmw: 750il, 850 mercedes: xxxsl 600sl and 600sel. the other sls (500 sl and 300sl) are v-8 and inline six. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103372">
<answer instance="rec.autos103372" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i was recently thumbing through the 1993 lemon-aid new car guide. what i found was a car would be given a 'recommended' under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision. the most highly recommended small car (the civic) has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed. there were many such cases of 'great' vehicles where you wouldn't survive an accident. is it only me, or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car? imho the best way to reduce risk when operating a vehicle is being able to avoid hazards and, for that reason my preferred vehicle is a motorcycle. when i do use a four wheeler my primary reasons are: it will keep me dry, it will keep me warm, or it will carry more cargo. if the four wheeler has as much collision protection as the average motorcycle, then it has enough form me. how do you define safe? one definition of safe is without risk. is chas dod #7769 "oh, how can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all?" - firesign theatre 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103376">
<answer instance="rec.autos103376" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i personally like the looks of the impala ss. the caprice was definately weird looking until this year when they made the rear wheel openings look more like a normal car, but the impala impresses me. gm can't exactly shove the lt1 in everything they make, you know, only the bigger stuff. i'd like to see it next in a 1500 series pickup. that would be a hot setup. what about in a full size blazer as well? would this engine have the gobs of torque necessary for off-roading? if so, this would be even better than the syclone. well, an lt1 blazer wouldn't come close to a gmc typhoon in speed, i think its too heavy. as it is right now, the normal 210hp 5.7 engine has plenty of power for a full size blazer. of course, i'm not saying gm shouldn't put the lt1 in it :). it seems like they have a real winner with that engine. why spend so much more money into getting a 32 valve dohc v8 when you can take an lt1? it even seems to get pretty good gas mpg (for a 5.7, that is.) [talking about impala ss] will this be in the 4-door caprice body? i'm just curious if chevy is trying to resurrect their 2-door muscle cars, or to compete with the european "super sedans." yeah, it's a flat black, lowered 4 door caprice riding on 17" aluminum rims and eagle gs-c tires. the rest of the car is basically a caprice ltz (read: plush police package) with 300 horsepower. i heard that chevy is resurrecting the monte carlo but that's going to get their 3.4 dohc v6 and not the lt1. jon dunn< andrew krenz -- uznerk@mcl.ucsb.edu | krenz@engrhub.ucsb.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103380">
<answer instance="rec.autos103380" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i am considering the purchse of a 1987 vw jetta gli with 87k miles on it. i recently found out that there are two versions of the gli -- 8v and 16v. i know of three differences between the two cars that both carry the same name: the 16v version has 20 more horsepower, 4 wheel discs, and a standard oops, that's the difference between the gli 16v and the regular gl !! so in addition to the engine, what other differences exist between the two models of the jetta gli ? more importantly, how can i tell which version this one is ? there are no badges that said "16v" so i am inclined to think that is the 8v version. assuming this one (the one i looked at) is the 8v version, is there a valid reason to buy it instead of a comparably equipped gl which would cost less ? (of course i would love to get the 16v version, but money talks.) please email any responses. thank you. peter volpe pv9955@albnyvms.bitnet 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103381">
<answer instance="rec.autos103381" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the big disadvantage of automatics is the ~10% hp they consume that never gets to the wheels. in this respect they are at a disadvantage to a manual. only when the torque converter is not locked up. there are autos out there with converter lock up in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. dont forget that now that new 6 speed manual trannys are available the drive train is more optimally geared to get the most out of the engine. rare.. so are 5 speed autos.. but very real. bottom line is both manuals and automatics have vastly improved. i think that automatics have advanced far more than manuals. especially in shift intelligence. i say that a smart automatic is better than the majority of drivers in terms of being in the right gear at the right time, which to me is more important than torque converter losses. i prefer the stick for fun and the auto for traffic. who says you can't have your cake and eat it too? a well designed shifter will easily facilitate manual, clutchless shifts. i am referring to the much copied mercedes jagged gate. the only department where you lose out is in the number of ratios available, and of course the converter losses.. if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission, it can't be half bad.. :-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103384">
<answer instance="rec.autos103384" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the quality of autobahns is something of a myth. the road surface isn't much different to a typical tx freeway. they are better in terms of lighting, safety, signs, roadmarkings etc. they light the highways in texas? funny, everywhere else i've been they only light 'em at junctions. sorry, by "they" i meant autobahns, not us freeways. i won't even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant. than most of the roads here. a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at 60 will kill you at 130. don't get me wrong, i love to it would have to be quite severe. i don't recall any us freeway, without road damage warnings, that i would regard as unsafe at 130 in any decent, well damped car. i suspect you have very limited experience -- us freeways vary dramatically, particularly between states. i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where 130 would be very optimistic in any car. well, i've driven in every state but alaska, and drive about 60k per year. i take long cross country trips any chance i get - its fun for me and i can get reimbursment. my job allows me to drive rather than fly. not to labor the point, but i've driven just about every freewayin the us, germany, uk and france plus some in mexico, which was surpisingly good. i'm not sure what you call "quite severe" in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i84 through ct would be considered so. they're hard to take at 85mph. that's not the only interstate i've seen with such deviations, but it's one i drive yes, but as a %age of the total freeway in the us? all you have to do in this case is mark the hazard, advising people to slow to 85 or so. texas is pretty much an edge-case -- you can't assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition, such flat terrain, and such texas freeways are varied, sometimes a good surface. mostly flat. but, i5 in ca is comparable and hilly. wide-open spaces. it just ain't so. given the absence of other traffic and car built for 130 (e.g. 535) most us freeways are just fine. the problem is other road users and jim frost jimf@centerline.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103387">
<answer instance="rec.autos103387" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 they beat ford to the market with the camaro/firebird, but really only in words. production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year, keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there. drivel. i received delivery of my '93 trans am 7 weeks after i ordered (promised 6-8 weeks), and paid $400 over dealer invoice, which is a $1425 discount off of msrp. i only have about 370 miles on it, but so far no problems, and it seems very well put together. by the way, first year production will be about 60,000 cars. dealers would like you to think there is a shortage, but considering they only sold about 90,000 f bodies last year and the new model was introduced mid-year, that is not going to create a shortage. gm planning on ramping to about 160,000 f bodies next year (according to a wsj article). several people have mentioned seeing a photo of the '94 mustang in popular mechanics. i saw a photo of it in motor trend january 1993 issue (p30). direct side on view. although they described it as a "seriously handsome car with broad shoulders," i thought it looked pretty boring in that view. roofline reminded me of a toyota celica (yuch!). description of mechanicals same as has been reported from the pm article. terry quinn germantown hills, il tquinn@heartland.bradley.edu from compuserve . . . >internet: tquinn@heartland.bradley.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103408">
<answer instance="rec.autos103408" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 what's the best lease quote that anyone has seen on a toyota previa dx or dx all-trac for a two-year lease? if you know where i can get a better rate than $330/month, please contact me with the name and phone of the dealership. will estes internet: westes@netcom.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103412">
<answer instance="rec.autos103412" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 my 85 caprice classic with 120k+ miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that i am forced to post :). anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below, please e-mail or post! 1. when making turns, especially when accelerating, there is usually a loud "thunk" from the rear of of the car. sounds like it could be the differential. what could cause this? is the differential going bad? i recently had the differential fluid changed, and it did have tiny metal bits in it. (and no, the sound is not something rolling around in the trunk!) 2. on starting the car, i get blue (oil) smoke from the exhaust for 5-10 seconds. exhaust valves going bad? worn rings? anyone know whether the valves on the 4.3 tbi engine can be lapped? 3. brakes. more pedal travel than i feel comfortable with, but master cylinder is full and fluid is relatively clear. pedal does not slowly sink to the floor when held down. pedal does not feel spongey, but i suppose that bleeding the brakes might help -- could anything else cause this? 4. tranny. tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse -- takes almost 2 seconds to downshift from 3rd to 2nd on heavy throttle application, and more recently, it is reluctant to shift from 2nd to 3rd. fluid (checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park, as per haynes manual) is red and clear, and is on full mark. 5. my springs all around are just about shot -- i have 4 new shocks on, but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed. how hard are they to change? can they be reconditioned? i'd be interested in hearing from any gm full-size rwd owners out there with stories to tell and/or advice. here in philly, these cars are apparently stolen(!) quite often and converted into taxis. apparently the cab conversion shops will get a junk title for the car or switch vins with a car about to be junked. about 60% of philly cabs are caprice's, with most of the rest being crown vic's with a few old new yorkers and impalas (& broughams). andrew white awhite@mcneil.sas.upenn.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103416">
<answer instance="rec.autos103416" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines. v4 - i don't know of any. v6 - legend, mr3? mr6? v8 - don't know of any. v12 - jaguar xjs please add to the list. ssave@ole.cdac.com the viper isn't an inline 10 or flat 10, is it? i'm pretty sure its a v-10. also, the cizeta??? is a v-16, but it may not yet be more than a dream... chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103417">
<answer instance="rec.autos103417" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver (is that one mag or two? =b^), and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say... i'm looking at the following three suv's; anyone who's driven all three have any strong opinions? ford explorer toyota 4runner nissan pathfinder currently i'm leaning toward the toyota, 'cause i've had big success with toyota trucks in the past, and 'cause i think it's the best looking of the three. but i thought i'd see if anyone has any strong opinions.... thanks! i agree that the toyota is the best looking i just didn't fit plus it is the highest cost of all the ones you mentioned. i have good friends who have all three of the trucks you talked about, the ones with kids all went to the ford because of the room required to carry a couple of kids and all the junk you need. the single ones went for the toyota and the nissan. every one has been happy with what they bought. although no one is into serious four wheel off road driving. karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac@cisco.com -or- batman@cisco.com 415-688-8231 dod# 1999 fj1200 "shovels and rakes and implements of destruction" -arlo guthrie bentz puryear (303)488-6120 (ncsc8!bep) at&t tsc 8300 e. maplewood ave. englewood, colorado 80111 powder skiing the path to salvation 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103419">
<answer instance="rec.autos103419" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 just a quick, simple question really... how many wheels are affected by the emergency brake on an '86 nissan maxima. i've heard that all four are affected, but this would seem unusual to me. i thought the emergency brake on most cars only affected the rear wheels. also, how powerful is the emergency brake usually? enough to lock wheels at 30mph? hmmmm... i just have to wonder about some of the things i hear... outatime -------> 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103420">
<answer instance="rec.autos103420" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr6? that's about it... outatime ------> 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103422">
<answer instance="rec.autos103422" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 anyone else experiencing a similar problem? this concerns the clutch on a 92 honda accord 5 speed. when the clutch is first used in the morning, about the first 4 miles of shifting, there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up. then the clutch shifts smoothly. this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low-humidity environment. the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non-asbestos clutch material. no remedy!! seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates. any comments out there? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103425">
<answer instance="rec.autos103425" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 i have a few questions about the tax on a used car purchase. i live in new york state, and i am going to buy a used car. i know that i will have to pay tax when i go to register the car. but i would like to know of tax is payed on the book value of the car, or on the purchase price. also, what tax rate is used ? the owner lives in albany (8% tax), and i will be living in saratoga with 7% tax. do i pay albany tax or saratoga tax ? (the difference is a whole $50) one more thing, how much does it cost for the usual 2 year registration ? did i leave anything out ? what else might i have to know to purchase and register a used car ? (i've never done this before.) thank you, peter volpe 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103426">
<answer instance="rec.autos103426" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 hi there, i've recently been toying with the idea of purchasing an old 914. the going rate seems to be about $4000 for cars with anywhere from 40-80k mi. my question is this- what should i expect at this price? should i expect to have extensive body work done? what about engine & transmission- should i likewise expect to have both virtually replaced? along those lines, does anyone have the names & addresses of any mail-order parts suppliers for everything from engine to body parts? i'm completely new to the area of restoring cars, and as i don't actually do any work with cars, most of the work would have to be professionally done- what sould i expect the cost of upgrading a 914 to a rust-free, mechanically sound automobile? thanks in advance, true 914 enthusiasts will be able to give you a better answer then this but i'll dump my impressions. i've wanted to own a 914 for about 10 years now; came close once but i ended up buying a fiero instead (biggest mistake of my life!) anyway, for $4000 you should be able to get a nice car but your also set in the price range to get taken by a nice looker that is a pile of shit. the most common total failure for the car would be frame rust between the engine and passenger compartment. also look for chassis welded together here. oh yeah, the price range you are talking about must be the 4 banger; a 6 (if you could find one) would be mucho more bucks. parts for the engine are pretty easy to come by (for an old car) and you can even locate crude in the jc whitney catalog if you have too. the machine itself is pretty simple (they use the spare tire for windshild washer instead of a pump fer chris sake!) so getting it fixed by a good bug/porsche mechanic would be easy. since it is mid-engine you may spend more on labor for any mechanical work. jeff miller network systems corporation internetwork group 7600 boone avenue north jmiller@network.com minneapolis mn 55428 (612)424-4888 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103427">
<answer instance="rec.autos103427" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard. i don't know the relevance of his observations about oil changes, my simply makes noise. not all that annoying, mind you. but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear :-) i think those with 1.6 mr2's would describe the engine as sweet if a little loud, those with 2.2 mr2's i can't imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments. sounded like my ex-dormmate's rusty chevy chevette. with the 1.6 i would want to redline it just for the music, with the 2.2 i would short shift so that it would shut up.. the new camry 2.2 features balance shafts. i guess since the mr2 is getting the axe, it is too late for them to do anything about this.. it is no mystery that the turbo mr2 is "only" 2 liters.. the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses. also, in europe the mr2 mk2 non-turbo was also "only" 2 liters.. as usual, the undiscriminating american market (if it is japanese it *must* be good) gets the dogs.. to be fair, we also got the turbo, which the europeans well, the 1.6 is music to my ears. i often turn my stereo off and just run it towards red line on nice twisty roads. but toyota engines at idle have a strange "bells and whisstles at the bottom of a matal can" sound. i can't describe it any better. just like all the older benzes have a very characteristic clattering sound at idle. do you know what i'm referring to? mike.s 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103431">
<answer instance="rec.autos103431" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 -> without the key, though, the steering column 'lock' would have to be -> sacrificed. not necessarily. maybe some sort of servo lock or something along those lines could be used to acheive the same effect. maybe a solenoid type of thing too. george howell __| |____ m m ooo ppp aaa rrr / / mm mm o o p p a a r r /___ __/ m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr |______| m m o o p a a r r _________________ m m ooo p a a r r | ford | :'better living through american horsepower': \_________________/ :george howell : :george.howell%goucher@wb3ffv.ampr.org : 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103432">
<answer instance="rec.autos103432" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette. the current platform is no exception. the "detuned" camaro and firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of a corvette and save about $10,000. i like the idea of an impala ss, but if they really wanted to impress me, they would throw in a big phat 454. imagine the cops in their taurus police package 3.0 and 3.8 litres as they stare at your taillights... george howell __| |____ m m ooo ppp aaa rrr / / mm mm o o p p a a r r /___ __/ m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr |______| m m o o p a a r r _________________ m m ooo p a a r r | ford | :'better living through american horsepower': \_________________/ :george howell : :george.howell%goucher@wb3ffv.ampr.org : 
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<instance id="rec.autos103435">
<answer instance="rec.autos103435" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you want to annoy geico, call them up...give fake name...but real car specs..get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm/allstate insurance. they will still send you quote etc. then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them. actually they were $12 more than my current state farm rates. actually, i've had a bad habit of stuffing a whole bunch of other garbage junk mail in along with whatever else into *anybody's* prepaid envelopes until they almost burst. i believe they pay postage by weight. heh, heh, heh... anyways, don't tear up the quotes just yet...i sometimes use their quotes or other insurance quotations as leverage to haggle for a lower rate elsewhere. usually it works to *your* advantage if they are lower. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103436">
<answer instance="rec.autos103436" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it was called a bricklin. bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from ford. waitaminnit, didn't the bricklin have an pugeot six-cylinder? or am i confusing it with the delorean? i was sure the delorean had a v8. the delorean had the yucky prv v6 engine. a joint-venture between peugout (note spelling), renault and volvo. prv. this engine is a *mighty boring* piece of junk with approx 140hp. doesn't like revs at all. if you look at the delorean in the movie back to the future you will note that they changed the engine sound to a big v8. a real delorean doesn't sounds half as good. you will also note that every time they have to spin the tires in the movie the ground is all wet. this is because a delorean can't make a burnout on a dry road! the weak engine thats mounted over the rear axle makes it almost impossible. larry smith (smith@ctron.com) no, i don't speak for cabletron. need you ask? liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want, it is the freedom to do whatever we are able. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103439">
<answer instance="rec.autos103439" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my son is considering the purchase of a 71 mgb, which has been substantially restored. the odometer has rolled over, but we can't be sure of the actual mileage. the engine and drive train apparently weren't touched in the restoration, except for a new carb and a few hoses. he plans to do vacuum and compression checks to see what they might tell us about the engine. the body and undercarriage have no visible rust, the interior is new, as are tires, front brakes (not sure about the back), battery, bumpers and other misc parts. the paint is checked in a few places, and scuffed here and there, allegedly by a wind-blown car cover. it seemed to handle ok, except for soft front shocks. questions: are there problem areas common to mgbs we should check out? the brakes seem soft and rather ineffective; what should we expect in the way of braking action? it seemed to be "doggy" when accelerating from a stop. what should we expect it to do, given the 4-cylinder engine? the top is in place, but will not reach a number of the snaps. the weather was cold. should the vinyl stretch and fit when it warms up, or is it forever is it normal for the wire wheels to be painted, or are they usually chromed? given this rather limited description, what would be a reasonable price? gee, this turned out to be a little long--sorry. while my brother once owned an xk120 jag (what a car!) we're obviously not into sports cars. any help with these questions, or suggestions on other things to investigate would surely be phil truesdale truesdal@david.wheaton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103440">
<answer instance="rec.autos103440" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 which western states have laws that charge sales tax on the difference between a new car's price and the trade-in's value? i know california charges you on the full value of the new vehicle regardless of trade-in. if you are a california resident, is it legal to buy a car in a state other than california without also paying california sales tax? how does california enforce any law that requires you to also pay california sales tax (on top of the out-of-state tax)? will estes internet: westes@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103444">
<answer instance="rec.autos103444" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just bought an altima (and like it very much) and yes there is a little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk. the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters, but the itsy-bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid. you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look. it is very inconspicuous. in fact my first clue that this was a stanza was that the owners manual called the car a nissan stanza altima. anybody know *why* nissan did it this way? to avoid paperwork associated with re-certification as a brand new car, etc. so for ad purposes it's a brand new nameplate, for paperwork it's still a stanza. spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com software technology, delco electronics (317) 451-0815 gm hughes electronics, kokomo, in 46904 "i post, therefore i armm" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103452">
<answer instance="rec.autos103452" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 derek.... there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after 2-3 weeks. the tool is in fact illegal (in europe atleast). it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later, all the lights come on! other than that, i know of no other tool.... anyone else? about changing oil every 15,000 miles.... thats ok.... on newer audis, they only require it after every 12,000 miles (i am talking about an oil change) just a query: do you drive your car very very carefully? like no sudden acceleration etc? if yeah, then the 15,000 m oil change seems quite reasonable. but if you drive kinda fast... i'd get a bit up tight abot that 15,000 thingy (a point to note: just because the first light came on at 3k, doesn't mean all the others will come on every 3k too) ....shaz.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103456">
<answer instance="rec.autos103456" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 xref: sun1x rec.autos:5997 misc.consumers:3163 newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers path: sun1x!actcnews!psinntp!psinntp!uunet!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs .ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!joe message-id: <1993apr14.225821.13000@advtech.uswest.com> sender: news@advtech.uswest.com (radio free boulder) nntp-posting-host: absoraka.advtech.uswest.com organization: u s west advanced technologies references: <1993apr8.161136.8994@bcrka451.bnr.ca> <dmerrill-130493170436@47.140.3.216> <1993apr14.132206.19001@ryn.mro4.dec.com> lines: 23 anyone else had the same problem ? well, i have an '92 taurus gl. apparently they still haven't fixed the problem with the rotors. i've got 26k miles on the clock and i'm getting the rotors (and pads) replaces tonight...at my expense of course. i owned a ford mustang 4 that had endless brake problems. the bad thing was that it had all other kinds of problems too. spent 2 months in the shop in the first 2 years i owned it (bought new). so i got rid of it, and will more than likely not buy a ford product in the future. the thing that really ticked me off was how ford treated me. they were such jerks it was unbelievable! -- joe in the past few years i have owned 3 mustang gts and now own a 91 t-bird sc. they all have had this problem. there was a recall on the t-bird for the brake problem. the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about 10k miles. between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the t-bird i'll never buy a ford again. bruce s. winters bsw@utrc.utc.com united technologies research center e. hartford ct. usa 
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<instance id="rec.autos103457">
<answer instance="rec.autos103457" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare??? just wondering..... many cars sold here in finland are *small* and *cheap* cars (at least when compared to other cars --- note that we have over 120 % car tax). and you couldn't expect a good auto mated to a 1.3 l engine? most of the bigger cars are, however, sold with autos. here in australia most cars are manual (privately owned anyway). why? not sure, i think it has something to do with the fact that our car industry in the past was more closely aligned with europe than the us in the past. now it's aligned with asia. scott fisher [scott@psy.uwa.oz.au] ph: aus [61] perth (09) local (380 3272). _--_|\ n department of psychology / \ w + e university of western australia. perth [32s, 116e]--> *_.--._/ s nedlands, 6009. perth, w.a. v joy is a jaguar xj6 with a flat battery, a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife, 9km outside of a small remote town, 3:15am on a cold wet winters morning. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103458">
<answer instance="rec.autos103458" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 organization: hp information networks, cupertino, ca path: eclipse!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!hawnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcss01!hpindda!jimb newsgroups: rec.autos lines: 12 anyone else experiencing a similar problem? this concerns the clutch on a 92 honda accord 5 speed. when the clutch is first used in the morning, about the first 4 miles of shifting, there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up. then the clutch shifts smoothly. this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low-humidity environment. the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non-asbestos clutch material. no remedy!! seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates. any comments out there? i have been having problems with a slightly different clutch problem on my 90 prelude. see rec.autos.tech for more detail. my problem is a false engagement point below the actual one. it also seems affected by weather - it is most noticeable (and annoying) on damp or cold days. my dealer says he can't reproduce the problem - i think i'll just sell the car. jeff goss 
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<instance id="rec.autos103475">
<answer instance="rec.autos103475" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 | >anything if he hadn't emptied his gun into the asshole. texas--it's | >whole other country. | that reminds me of one of texas's ads...you hear a guy speaking in | french (like it's a letter home), then the french moves to the | background, and a french-accented voice come to the foreground, talking | about how he went walking on the beach, and it felt so much like | home that he decided to take his shoes off...and the rest of his | clothes. it ended with "please send bail." :-) | >on an rec.autos note, does anyone carry a gun on them or keep one in | >their car (which is bad idea, isn't it?) if you work in a bad part of | >town (or regularly go through one)? is this a loaded question? :^) | i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded | magazine handy (which is perfectly legal in oklahoma). for those | times that i'm travelling inter-state, i keep an unloaded | s&w .44 magnum revolver in the glove box, with a speed-loader | in my pocket (which is legal everywhere, under federal law, illinois | state police be hanged). | as i've said before, this is stricly for defense; my insurance | will pay to replace my car, but i only have one life... | james carrying a pistol, loaded or unloaded, in the glove compartment, is considered carrying a concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without a concealed weapons permit. unless the law has been changed recently, carrying a weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal. i read a newspaper account last year where police stopped a car on a traffic infraction and observed a .357 magnum revolver sitting on the seat. the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed. the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box, it would have been considered a crime. ken franklin they say there's a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it's better but i say it ain't gwrra i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod #0126 the sinners are lots more fun, y'know only the good die young 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103484">
<answer instance="rec.autos103484" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am in the process of buying a new auto. i haven't decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase. i know that the "blue book" value for the car is $2825. an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car. i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else. what exactly is blue book value based on? i know that for its year (88) my car has low mileage (< 50,000). it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior (nothing major). do any of these facts alter the fair selling p[rice of the car? i am not looking to rip anyone off, i just naturally want to get the best price for the car. thanks a million, i think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices, no? is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value??? the blue book value isn't set in stone, though. low milage, extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car, you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff. i paid ~$400 under bb (retail) for my '87 civic in 1990, and it was in perfect condition and had only ~14.5k miles on it. the guy was desparate to sell, new kid on the way, etc., but it was a good price. remeber, both you and the buyer, if he has any sort of brains at all, are using the blue book, so you should pick a fair price. chintan amin llama@uiuc.edu chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103491">
<answer instance="rec.autos103491" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am in the process of buying a new auto. i haven't decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase. i know that the "blue book" value for the car is $2825. an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car. i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else. what exactly is blue book value based on? i know that for its year (88) my car has low mileage (< 50,000). it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior (nothing major). do any of these facts alter the fair selling p[rice of the car? i am not looking to rip anyone off, i just naturally want to get the best price for the car. thanks a million, a dealer will make money off you in three ways, if you let him: 1) new car markup over his cost (remember his hold-back), 2) arranging financing through the dealership, and 3) screwing you on the trade. keep the deal with the dealer simple by eliminating 2 & 3. buying a car at "dealer's cost" is meaningless if he makes $1000 on the trade and/or gets a kickback from the bank. blue book (you need to know if you're talking average wholesale or average retail) is a good guide to value for a car. if you are selling it yourself, try to get average retail, and chances are you'll have done ok. be careful selling to acquaintances if you ever want them to become friends. c. b. fowler gtri/esml chris.fowler@gtri.gatech.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103495">
<answer instance="rec.autos103495" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi everybody ... well i don't know if this is a known problem to you in the big state but over here in europe it is in some places ... it just happened to me and i payed a lot to get my new honda civic repaired. a marten choose my car to stay one night in and this damn little animal damaged almost everything which was plastic/rubber .. i never thought that these little #@%##@ could do that much damage. so to all you car owners out there : is there a good known method of gettin' rid of this animal ??? except for waiting all night long beneath my car with a gun ??? help in any form would be appreciated very very much !!!! e-mail: scheer@faw.uni-ulm.de thanxxxx y'all 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103496">
<answer instance="rec.autos103496" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if you want to annoy geico, call them up...give fake name...but real car specs..get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm/allstate insurance. they will still send you quote etc. then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them. actually they were $12 more than my current state farm rates. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103499">
<answer instance="rec.autos103499" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i need your help with a problem i have with a 1989 mitsubishi galant gs transmission. the car has a 5 speed manual tranmission. since the car was bought new, while shifting from 2nd to 3rd, unless i do it slowly and carefully, it makes a "popping" or "hitting" sound. the dealer and mitsubishi customer service (reached by an 800 #) say this is normal for the car. is it? and about a year ago, at 35kmiles, the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse: 1- the shifter would not budge. the clutch had no effect. 2- the front tires would not budge, even when the clutch is fully depressed. 3- if the clutch is released the engine would die. 4- assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck, i could not make the car move. it acted as if it were in neutral(except for dying when clutch is released.) 5- i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth (less than an inch), while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter. 6- the shifter acted normally after that. when this happened, i took it to the dealer, they checked the clutch, it was o.k. they checked the transmission, it was o.k. i had the exact problem a couple of months ago, and again last week. the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi (the 800 #) says they have never heard of the problem, and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car. in all three occurances, the car was parked head first in a garage, and since the front wheels were stuck, the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter (hence temporarily solving the problem). and the dealer, and mitsubishi, refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck. i know there is smething wrong with the transmission (shifting from 2nd to 3rd), and getting stuck at random, but i can't get the dealer to fix it. i need your help with the mechanical problems, and with how to handle mitsubishi. all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated, and sorry to bore you with the long post. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103502">
<answer instance="rec.autos103502" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 talking about car alarms, there are certain cars in this country that are only insurable if they are fitted with a vecta alarm. we're talking coswoths and porsches and stuff. just before they (the insurance companies) decided to make this move, they insisted that the car be fitted with a scorpion alarm ( now they've changed to the vecta)... so everyone who's spent $$$ on fitting the scorpion alarm have founbd themselves having to upgrade to the vecta system. sad huh? :-( ...shaz... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103503">
<answer instance="rec.autos103503" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i dont know about saabs but whenever there is a 'long temr tset' in a magazine they always say that tehy're are little annoying niggles which keep on occuring every so often... i wouldn't expect that from such a 'quality' car.... why doesn't anything like this ever happen on bmws? maybe coz they're 'quality' cars ;-) <shrugs (repentently!) > ....shaz.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103505">
<answer instance="rec.autos103505" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 enough, already. let's take this discussion to some other newsgroup that's more appropriate. most of us are tired of it and would like to get back to old cars, imho. chuck lampman (chuck.lampman@gstrf.gatech.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103507">
<answer instance="rec.autos103507" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my wife and i looked at, and drove one last fall. this was a 1992 model. it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered. i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds. i have read that the new 1993 models have a newer, improved hp engine. i'm quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said "once it's broken in it will feel more powerful". i had been used to driving a jeep 4.0l 190hp engine. i believe the 92's land cruisers (land yachts) were 3.0l, the sames as the 4runner, which is also underpowered (in my own personal opinion). they are big cars, very roomy, but nothing spectacular. ( ___ )-----------------------------------------------------------( ___ ) | / | tom vervaeke email: tvervaek@cs.itc.hp.com | \ | | / | hewlett packard co. phone: 719-590-2133 | \ | |___| i love animals. they taste delicious. |___| (_____)-----------------------------------------------------------(_____) the land cruiser has a l6 4.5 engine which has 200 hp and 280 torgue, when i drove it here in california, power is more than enough. the high price is the only reason i did not buy it. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103508">
<answer instance="rec.autos103508" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> i heard the diesels are considered cleaner-burning than |> gas engines because the emit less of: carbon monoxide, |> hydrocarbons, and oxides of nitrogen. (co, hc, nox). |> but they can put out a lot of particulate matter. i heard |> something about legislation being discussed to "clean up |> diesel emissions". is there anything in the works to |> install "scrubbers" for diesels? how about the feasibility |> of installing them on trucks and cars? would it be any |> different than a catylitic converter? i'd assume easier, |> since we're removing particulate matter instead of converting |> gasses. let's hear people's opinions... this really bugs me. the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle, but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california. what a bunch of crap. diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it's illegal for the same reason. the particulates are nothing but carbon. they are just an annoyance at worst. nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions, torque or engine durability. it's also cheaper. just to clear things up (as to why i posted the question that way)... i was debating with a co-worker about diesels. i claimed they were cleaner-burning than gas engines. he said the extra "junk" put out by them was offset by the savings in greenhouse gasses. i made all the same claims you did. but, one question of his was what about the carbon? i said it was harmless, but he wanted to know how to get rid of it. i suggested scrubbers. (i figured it would be no harder or more expensive to install than "cats".) does there exist any designs for a scrubber? (i'd like to know just to answer his final question.) i convinced him that diesels are cleaner otherwise. btw, (i named my subject "dirty diesels" because i knew it would get a reaction out of people who knew they were cleaner than gas engines and that they'd read it...) -- vel natarajan nataraja@rtsg.mot.com motorola cellular, arlington hts il -- 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103511">
<answer instance="rec.autos103511" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 an aquaintence has a 87 accord. the driver's side headrest was accidentally put in backwards and has jammed. according to the dealer, the only way to get it out is to spend several hours disassembling the seat. this is the second time i have heard of this happening, and i wonder whether there's an easier way to get the headrest back out. has anyone else ever dealt with this problem? your advice would be appreciated! please email, and i will summarize if there is interest. _ dan@dyndata.com / \_ dan everhart uunet!{camco,fluke}!dyndata!dan \_/ \____________________________ 206-743-6982, 742-8604 (fax) / \_/ 7107 179th st sw \_/ dynamic data & electronics edmonds, wa 98026, usa "rhe rone rike, rhe rone rike... rhorane" -- astro sings "cocaine" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103512">
<answer instance="rec.autos103512" senseid="rec.autos"/>
<context>
 new 300 series mercedes benz wagon... particularly, i would like to hear about power (manual t. only)... any comparisons between the saab 9000 line and the mercedes would be helpful. if a manual transmission is a "must have", then the m-b 300te is not in the running. you cannot get a manual transmission in that car in north america. it seems that buyers here (or, maybe more accurately, the distributors) are not interested in manual trannies. the '93 300 line comes with a 217 hp engine. all earlier years are 177 hp. i have an '87 300e, with a "mere" 177 hp and auto tranny, and i find that it has sufficient power for any normal driving situation. more is always nice, but i can't complain. i test drove a saab 900 cse last fall. here are my impressions: 1) awesome power, especially over 3500rpm, when the turbo really comes on. 2) if you get on the power really hard in a tight corner, the front-wheel drive causes it to understeer heavily, and then viciously "hook" into the corner. not a desirable handling trait, but common in powerful front drive cars. (the cse is 200hp. mercedes is rear-drive, so it does not have this problem.) 3) huge interior and cargo space. 4) the most "rubbery" shifter i have ever encountered. i drove a 5spd. it was absolutely numb. you might be able to get used to it - i don't know. i also didn't like its location, which was too far down, and too far right. from the shifter's position, i got the impression that saab really designed the car for an automatic. 5) it was rather noisy: engine buzz, rattles, and creaks. (mercedes does not exhibit these characteristics.) you should also check out the new bmw 525 "touring". this is a wagon version of the 525i. it fits into the class with the 300te and saabs. michael chmilar chmilar@apple.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103516">
<answer instance="rec.autos103516" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients (i.e cd) mentioned in magazines. i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world. is there a way to calculate new top speeds(assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed) or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from .34 to .33. i don't remember the formula's off hand as it has been awhile since i took aerodynamics and haven't used the stuff since. the cd is related to the drag force which is what effects top speed and fuel consumption. when the drag force on the car or aircraft is greater than what the vehicle's engine can overcome it has reached its top speed. (autos of course also have to overcome rolling resistance) since drag opposes the vehicle's motion, the engine must make up for that by burning more fuel. anyway, since the geometery of an auto is rather complex, the drag,pressure coeffiecent,etc is either found experimentaly, or using a numerical method. anyway for flow around a cylinder the drag coeff is: cd = d/(q*2r) where d is the drag force, q the flow velocity and r is the radius of the clyinder. to get a rough (very rough) estimate, you can set r at 1/2 the car's width, q at the car's speed and knowing the cd, find the drag force that the car would need to overcome. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103517">
<answer instance="rec.autos103517" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 it's a toll for insurance companies and auto dealers to rip you off in case of accident or trade-in. charlie ellis chellis@nyx.cs.du.edu charlie ellis chellis@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos103518">
<answer instance="rec.autos103518" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 gk>occasionally, i have trouble shifting into reverse. the shifter gk>refuses to enter the gate, and i often grind the synchros trying to gk>get it into gear. i'll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk>of months. enter 1st, wait 2-3 seconds and then go into reverse. they use the same synchros, and you'll never (at least i haven't) ground-em-to-fit when using this technique. the cutting edge bbs (cutting.hou.tx.us) a pcboard 14.5a system houston, texas, usa +1.713.466.1525 running uupcb 
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<instance id="rec.autos103519">
<answer instance="rec.autos103519" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 gk>i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive. i gk>currently have goodyear gt+4s that cost the previous owner $500 gk>for four. try eagle gas, wear better, cost less, lose little handling, and are quieter. i'm going to switch to 225s in my next set, with new rims (fitti twists) if i can afford 'em by the time my gas wear out. gk>is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal! also, i began gk>to wonder how strong that brake really is. (today, i backed out of gk>parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed gk>the glowing brake light. oops.) mine is strong enough to not let the car move when it's in, even if you're giving it enough gas to normally move it in 1st. you might need a brake gk>the driver's power window creaks when closed all the way. the same gk>thing happens in my parents 1989 mercury sable. oddly, all the gk>other windows work smoothly. watch it closely, the glass actually flexes from the torque in the motor, it seems stronger in the drivers window then the others. gk>i'm liking the interior amenities more and more each day. the gk>cupholders are great. i've found the location (under the armrest in between the seats) to be a pain, but like having them. they moved it into the dash (pop out) in the '91 model year, much better. gk>i really feel like i don't deserve this car. i really can't gk>believe that i could afford it. i got this car ten years gk>ahead of schedule. :-) i did the same thing. got a black '89 with 65.5k miles on it for $8k in july '92. gk>i've put together the responses to my questions about the cars, as gk>well as other posts with useful information on these cars. i'll be gk>posting this in the form of a faq soon. grabbed it and archived it. thanks! gk>if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list, please speak up! gk>i don't know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one, but gk>maybe someone out there does. i'll be starting one this summer, one way or the other (current software i use dosen't support mailing lists, but is on the rsn list - if not, i'm going to upgrade to another package that does have it), that is, if nobody else beats me to it. will make an announcement here when it goes up. the cutting edge bbs (cutting.hou.tx.us) a pcboard 14.5a system houston, texas, usa +1.713.466.1525 running uupcb 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103520">
<answer instance="rec.autos103520" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 based on my experience with a '79 fj40 ( the hard-top jeep-style model ) i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market. the older models are very well built. unless toyota lost its mind, i would assume, until proven otherwise, that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors. two major differences in the running gear (that i'm aware of) need study. my '79 has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension. the solid axle is theoretically stronger and the new cruisers do not have independent suspension in the front. they run a straight axle, but with coils. the 4runner is the one with front. the cruisers have incredible wheel travel with this system. more reliable than the newer model, but only experience will tell. the independant front suspension is, no doubt, a compromise made to satisfy the typical user, who will never need a real utility vehicle. the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models. i'm not sure, but i think tioyota went to a full-time 4wd or all-wheel drive system. the older landcruisers have a "lock-up" type. both have their advantages and disadvantages. the 91-up cruiser does have full time 4wd, but the center diff locks in low range. my brother has a 91 and is an incredibly sturdy vehicle which has done all the 4+ trails in moab without a tow. the 93 and later is even better with the bigger engine and locking diffs. jim chott 85 toyota 4wd pickup rzaa80@email.sps.mot.com 72 lemans sport convertible tempe, arizona 
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<instance id="rec.autos103523">
<answer instance="rec.autos103523" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 if the mustang and/or sho platform were designed for 130mph, it would come with better seatbelts, more supportive seats, a stronger passenger compartment cage, better brakes, a stiffer suspension, different tires, and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground. in other words, it'd be a 1993 rx7. yeah, and then we'd pay $30,000. go with a 5.0 lx mustang. most bang for your 
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<instance id="rec.autos103524">
<answer instance="rec.autos103524" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 does anyone have one of these that would care to share some information on? i concerned about the turbo. how reliable is it? how's the gas milage. please responde to me, not here. thank you. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103525">
<answer instance="rec.autos103525" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 |> anyone else experiencing a similar problem? |> this concerns the clutch on a 92 honda accord 5 speed. when the clutch |> is first used in the morning, about the first 4 miles of shifting, there |> is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up. then the |> clutch shifts smoothly. this chatter started when i moved to the san |> francisco bay area from a low-humidity environment. the dealer stated |> that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to |> non-asbestos clutch material. no remedy!! seems that moisture on clutch |> surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates. |> any comments out there? the clutch on my '92 honda civic ex-v (ex in the u.s.) does this too. it's annoying. now that i think about, it _is_ worse when the humidity is high. the dealer also claims there's nothing they can do since the clutch is a "self-adjusting hydraulic design". yeah, right. one of the reasons i sold my '92 civic vx was the chattery-grabby clutch although i din't notice it being any worse in humid weather, perhaps because its always humid around here. i was told by honda that it has to do with changing from asbestos to non-asbestos linings, which began around 1990. someone could make some good money selling the old-fashion variety if it's legal to manufacture them these days. my feeling is that since many other car makers do not have this problem, that it's a poor design or engineering problem on the part of honda. three things to look out for on all honda products - clutch chatter, bad brake rotors, and rusty exhaust systems. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103527">
<answer instance="rec.autos103527" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, smith@ctron.com (lawrence c smith) says: v16 - must be one somewhere. believe bugatti's coming(has) out one. something like 4 turbos and mucho macho hp. one cool price too, as i heard. at any rate, the point is, i'm pretty sure there is, indeed, one in production... tho rather limited.. this is _no_ bugatti. it's labeled a bugatti but has nothing to do with the bugatti's of yore, from what i understand. just some ppl wanting to build a silly supercar and use that name to sell it. drew may be thinking of the cizeta morodor v16t, but that hasn't reached production, at least not yet. as for the bugatti, well, i have to agree with matt, it ain't the top dog, it ain't sexy and svelt-looking, and it ain't a real bugatti. in fact, it looks like it's in tight competition with the consulier for the most butt-ugly car of the decade award. it isn't that bad. at least the bugatti eb110 has compound curves compared to the slab sides on the consulier. and the bugatti has a quad turbo v-12 (thing of it as 4 three cylinder turbo engines tied together). also ettore bugatti's nephew is on the board of directors and had a hand in the development. so that's about as much bugatti as you are likely to get in today's world. much like enzo ferrari's illegitamate son being allowed to take over part of ferrari as well... i don't know of any cars with v4, but there are a number of motorcycles with them - but i couldn't tell you which ones, all motorcycles look alike to me. :d that's funny. i have motorcylclist friends who say the same about `cages'. most gp 500cc motorcycles are v-4s, and the vf line of hondas were all v-4s (from the vf-400f through the vf-1000f, including the rc30 race bike and the present vfr-750f). it should be noted that lancia built a v-4 in recent history in the fulvia hf, a very pretty italian coupe. al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<instance id="rec.autos103529">
<answer instance="rec.autos103529" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my nissan quest has been doing 20mpg city, though its first few tanks were more like 17mpg. the v6 and at are remarkably smooth. agreed! i own a mercury villager and i'm very impressed with the v6 and the at. in the past, i've been biased towards manual/standard transmissions(i owned an aerostar with a 5-speed, it was awesome!), but settled with the at in the villager and have been pleasantly surprised with it's performance. btw, consumers report in their report on the villager, alluded to some funny noises from the at, i've been listening for them but haven't noticed anything christopher j. born born@ralvms.vnet.ibm.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103530">
<answer instance="rec.autos103530" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, gwm@spl1.spl.loral.com (gary w. mahan) says: could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients (i.e cd) mentioned in magazines. i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world. is there a way to calculate new top speeds(assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed) or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from .34 to .33. it's pretty complex, and cd isn't the whole story either. cd for cars is usually calculated based on the frontal area of the car. so a large car with a good cd could get the same drag force as a smaller car with a poorer cd. to calculate drag use this formula: d = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * cd * s where d is the drag force (lbs), rho is the local air density (slugs/ft^3), v is the velocity (ft/s), and s is the frontal area (ft^2). note that the pieces called 1/2 * rho * v^2 are sometimes called qbar or dynamic pressure (a fancy aero term for air pressure or force). note that power is: p = f * v where p is power (lbf-ft/s), f is the force, drag in this case (lbf) and v is velocity (ft/s). note that if you put the whole equation into one (by substituting d for force) you get a velocity _cubed_ term. that's why huge increases in power result in little increases in speed. ditto for decreases in cd. so if you have a 100 mph car and reduce cd from .34 to .33, your new top speed is: (sound of trumpet fanfare) 101 mph sorry to dissappoint. al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<instance id="rec.autos103653">
<answer instance="rec.autos103653" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i prefer a manual to an automatic as it should be. i believe that automatics should only be manufactured for people with physical disabilities who otherwise would not be able to drive. automatic transmissions allow drivers to be lazy. more time is available to fiddle with the radio or to look at the scenery instead of concentrating on the road. the manual transmission keeps the drive always doing something, granted it isn't a large movement. plus, driving should be fun! driving a manual is fun, driving an automatic is a chore. in the case of shift speed, automatics can be made to shift far faster that any human could move a stick. if i was racing, i'd want and automatic. for normal driving go with the manual. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103656">
<answer instance="rec.autos103656" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 here is a press release from the national crime prevention council the campaign urges drivers to remember to "lock up, roll up, and look around": * lock car doors immediately after entering or leaving the car; * roll up windows as far as possible; and * look around and be alert to avoid situations that are that reminds me of a blurb in the police blotter in my school paper along the lines of, "...police were called because [so and so] reported there were suspicious people hangning around the business building." turns out it was two black men leaving the building after doing homework late one night. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103657">
<answer instance="rec.autos103657" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 just stopped putting money into it. i must have put at least $5000-$7000 worth of repairs over it's lifetime. i am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me. bullshit, whoever backs em best, is just afraid the stupid things area the part about spending $5000-7000 on repairs reminds me of an article i read in a magazine comparing the 5 year ownership costs of a toyota camry and a ford taurus or something like that. the result, which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period. that was their argument to prove that you don't go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry. now, if i remember correctly, the camry costs about $4000 or so more in initial costs. essentially, it means that you spend about $4000 extra on repairs on the taurus. that is ridiculous. every time your car needs repairs, it is extra hassles, loss of time and a dozen other things. i would much rather spend $5000 more in initial costs than spend $4000 more in repair costs. ----------------->8 cut here for signature! 8<--------------------- balaji ramanathan, | institute of transportation studies, | i don't believe in luck! university of california, irvine. | i rely on it!! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103659">
<answer instance="rec.autos103659" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today : have v engines. : v4 - i don't know of any. : v6 - legend, mr3? mr6? : v8 - don't know of any. : v12 - jaguar xjs : please add to the list. : thanks, : -s : ssave@ole.cdac.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103661">
<answer instance="rec.autos103661" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 you know, i'm a ford fan, i must say, so i'm looking forward to the next mustang. i have faith that it will be a fine product, more desireable than the camaro is now. you know, that's mho. true...thats your opinion. they beat ford to the market with the camaro/firebird, but really only in words. production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year, keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there. i wouldn't press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it. besides, no bow-tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway. true again.. i wouldn't take a free mustang...honest. the next mustang will be ford's highest profile car. it attracts way more attention than the camaro/firebird because it's heritage is more embedded in the general public. don't lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that. fyi: they already did. too bad that the current mustang can't even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination. right now few cars can compare with the '93 camaro, think about it.. 20,000 for a car that will out perform all but a few exotics. if you are now swearing at me look at the stats...they don't lie. there are no comparable cars in it's class, certinaly not for its price. you know,intelligent, critical spews like, "the mustang bites, man!" some of you are already beginning. i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers, as usual. i also agree, this subject is one that will never be setteled.... except maybe at the track :-) unless the ford gets the 32v, 300hp romeo. you don't seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only, do you? hey, can you imagine the potential of a modified lt-1!!!!!!! folks in a few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late '60's, thats scary. you ford vs chevy people must live in the planet of detroit or droid. like they say in the airforce, with enough horsepower anything will fly. i can put a 32valve v-8 with twin garret-4s on yugo and get 7.7sec qm. thats useless ... its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track, or on the street. have you detroit beings compared the ultra-long-throw stick shifts of the 5.0 with the 93 mr2 turbo or 93 rx7 (i ll buy it in 6 mos) ? or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the 5.0 that sounds in every hairpin turn ? and bythe way 5.0 and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks ... hello , this is the 90 's ? vlasis theodore software engineer -just say no to signatures- 
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<instance id="rec.autos103662">
<answer instance="rec.autos103662" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary. i have an 86 toyota corolla sr5, with 94000 and i am in the process of doing preventative maintenance and i was wondering if this was something that i should add to my list of things to do. any information would be greatly appreciated. i really love this car and would like to keep it for as long as thanx... sign me... only a manual will do.. amplifying on jeff goss's answer, the absorbed water will rust your brakelines and master cylinder and calipers and you could suddenly lose all your brake fluid. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103666">
<answer instance="rec.autos103666" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i tried the autofom stuff on my 1991 saturn sc, and was so disappointed with it that i returned it for a refund. i polished the car for 2 hours and couldn't remove the swirl marks/thin film that was all over the finish. it also attracted more dirt than without the stuff. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103668">
<answer instance="rec.autos103668" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford. every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership; last i heard, there were seven different fees to pay to own a car. we used to have a tax in greece named after the queen's mother. the queen left (monarchy was abolished) but the tax stuck... similar single purpose taxes have stuck (i.e. to help the victims of the earthquake of 19xx, build the metro) obmoralconclusion: next time someone proposes a car tax or gasoline tax promising it's temporary, it ain't. spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com software technology, delco electronics (317) 451-0815 gm hughes electronics, kokomo, in 46904 "i post, therefore i armm" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103669">
<answer instance="rec.autos103669" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello again, another question. :) i just got my hands on 2 quarts of readline gear oil (at $7 a quart) now i need to know how to throw it into my car. i own an 89 nissan maxima se, any ideas? can i mix the oil in there with this stuff, or should i drain first, then only use this stuff. if you know where (if there is one) the drain plug on the manual transmission on the maxima is, i would really appreciate any comments. also have any of you maxima owners, thied this stuff in your cars? thanks in adv. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103671">
<answer instance="rec.autos103671" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines. v4 - i don't know of any. because there is no such thing. a friend had a ford taunus (era early 60's) that *did* have a v4 in it. i lost a bet on it. i find it hard to believe there are no *recent* cars with a v4 in them. any *recent* ones? spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com software technology, delco electronics (317) 451-0815 gm hughes electronics, kokomo, in 46904 "i post, therefore i armm" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103675">
<answer instance="rec.autos103675" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 thanx craig.... in addition to craigs coments - and to clear up any further confusion.... the 200sx (of usa) was reffered to as a silvia turbo in the uk.... performance figures of uk 200sx are: 0-60: 6.4s vmax: 142mph ...shaz.. oh one more q: you know that new prelude vtec? well is there an auto version in the usa? i've heard of them in japan but not uk. also, do you guys get auto miatas? 
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<instance id="rec.autos103677">
<answer instance="rec.autos103677" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 yeah, diesels are cleaner than petrol powered cars. they even have catalysts fitted to disels now! oh and citroen have even launched the 'first sports diesel car in the world'. which is probably true if you assume if its for production purposes (merc-benz had a prototype which runs on diesel back in around 1968..... it did - and read this! - 200 mph!!!) ....shaz.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103678">
<answer instance="rec.autos103678" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in the ec, the corrado vr6 is rated as 'best handling car this side of a 968'. as it goes, i just read an article in 'autocar & motor' comparing the vr6 to a ford probe (later to be launched in the uk).... the vr6 is more powerful (even more so coz its 2.9 instead of 2.8 in the ec) and more fun to drive etc etc... but the probe has a slightly smoother engine (thanx mazda mx6!)... they sum it up as 'both cars are fast - the vr6 is a bit more exhilirating to drive but only if you're prepared to work harder' ....shaz.... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103679">
<answer instance="rec.autos103679" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us? edu us? (are both com and edu us?) fr france dk denmark no norway .com and .edu are both united states, one refers to commercial institutions, the other to mental - i mean, "educational" - institutions. .gov is also pretty much us, it refers to government institutions. internet was built on the aarp backbone, a us defense contractor network that used the extension i think you mean arpa; aarp is the american association of retired persons, and i seriously doubt that they'd want young whippersnappers building anything on their backbones, what with de-calcification and all :-) to identify the type of organisation. internet extended the convention for other countries, but the us retained the old conventions. the general convention is that if it doesn't have a country tag on it, it's a us site. that includes: .com commercial .edu educational .mil us military sites .gov us gov't non-military sites (eg nasa sites) .org anyone who is "none of the above" there are sites with such tags that are non-us sites, but they will have the country extension (eg xxxx.edu.au is an extension i saw today). us sites can also use the .us extension, but, as mr. smith pointed out, the internet was built on the arpanet backbone, and they default to us sites if there's no country code. i would suggest that anyone who didn't know this (or wants to know more about it on a non-system-administrative level) check out the book _the_whole_internet_user's_guide_and_catalog_ by ed krol. (or is it catalog and user's guide? i can never remember, and my copy is my desk at home...). it's a very good not-necessarily-technical guide to the internet and the various utilities that lurk on it (including usenet). i don't think it's part of the nutshell series, but it is published by o'reilly and associates. this should go to one of the news.* newsgroups, but damned if i can figure out which one.... :-) james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103680">
<answer instance="rec.autos103680" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 did youy guys know that it is legal to own a radar detector but is illegal to use it! isn't that a bit like owning a gun but not being allowed to use it? my mate just switches his off whenever the cops are around. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103682">
<answer instance="rec.autos103682" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ashtrays and cigarette lighters. these should be an *option*. you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights. the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens. wouldn't you rather have some type of standard "electrical" plug instead of that "fire hazard waiting to happen" adaptor? i know i would, and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray. (my car came with coin holders already built in) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103686">
<answer instance="rec.autos103686" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 have you detroit beings compared the ultra-long-throw stick shifts of the 5.0 with the 93 mr2 turbo or 93 rx7 (i ll buy it in 6 mos) ? or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the 5.0 that sounds in every hairpin turn ? or the price tag of the rx7 vs. a mustang? part of the definition of a mustang is that it should be affordable by the masses. of course ford knows youre argument, they own a big piece of mazda! take a good look at a mach iii, now an rx7, hhhmmmmm... and bythe way 5.0 and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks ... hello , this is the 90 's ? that is a tragedy, but i don't think new camaros or the new mustangs will. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 alan kulwicki 1992 winston cup champion 1954 - 1993 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 
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<instance id="rec.autos103691">
<answer instance="rec.autos103691" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 thanks for all the recommendations. i have decide to ignore the service indicators and do oil change myself every 3000 miles. thanks again for all the responses. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103693">
<answer instance="rec.autos103693" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 what car are we talking about? if its camaro, chevelle,gto, nova, etc. there are a bunch of places to get them. a 68 corvette but, i don't want to put corvette seats in it. the original seats are in exc. shape but they are uncomfortable as hell. i'm going to store those and find a set to drive in. i have all the vette catalogs but i'm looking for a more generic type seat. i can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are a concern. i've looked through some local boneyards without success. i would just like to find a pair of cheapo's to use this summer. call around to some wrecking yards in your area and,if they have any, look at fiero seats. they are right down on the floor like a vette and not too wide.if you can't find any let me know and i'll call around here for you. i'm sure these yards ship stuff all the time. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103695">
<answer instance="rec.autos103695" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello all, i know that after market sunroofs may have left a bad taste in some of your mouths, but i am really interested in finding a "good" brand if one exists. please let me know if you have heard of any makers with a good reputation (few failures, no leaks, that sort of thing) and whether or not you have had first hand experience with that manufacturer. who is generally regarded in the industry as the "best" (price no object) maker of power sunroofs?? --steve steve bonsib | reply to: sbonsib@cac.stratus.com stratus computer | marlboro ma | 
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<instance id="rec.autos103698">
<answer instance="rec.autos103698" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : i am considering buying a 1993 chevy or gmc 4x4 full-size pickup with : the extended cab. any opinions about these vehicles? have there been : any significant problems? : dick grady salem, nh, usa grady@world.std.com : so many newsgroups, so little time! i bought a brand new 1992 chevrolet k2500 hd 4x4 extended cab last may. it has had many, many problems. see my earler post that describes the situation. i went to bbb arbitration, and they ruled that chevrolet must buy it back from me. if you do get one, stay away from the 5 speed manual with the deep low first gear. they have put three of them in my truck so far. after about 1,500 miles, overdrive either starts rattling or hissing loudly. there is no way to fix them. chevrolet says that the noise is "a characteristic of the transmission." also, if you are planning to use your truck to tow, the gear ratios in that tranny suck. on a steep hill, you get up to about 55 mph in second gear at 4,000 rpm (yellow line). if you shift to third, the rpm drop to only 2,500, and you begin to loose speed. i should point out that the 350 v8 they put in the hd (8600 gvw) trucks is a detuned motor compared to the one they put in the light duty ones. they dropped the compression ratio, supposedly for "engine longevity" reasons. so the light duty 350 may pull better than my truck does. other things that have gone wrong include the ventilation fan (3 times so far), paint (had specs of rust embedded in the paint from being shipped by rail with no covering), and suspension parts (link between stabilizer and control arm fell off). any company can make a bad individual car, chevrolet included. what really bothered me was the way they reacted. they made no attempt to deal with me except to tell me to take it back to the dealer for them to attempt to fix it one more time. so i bought a brand new ford f250 hd super cab with a 460 and an automatic. i will never buy another chevrolet. jackw@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com 
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<instance id="rec.autos103703">
<answer instance="rec.autos103703" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my car was recently destroyed in a hail storm. [...] i fully expected to get jerked around by the insurance company. i wasn't the only one who had hail damage. state farm opened its claim centers on evenings and weekends, and flew down additional adjusters from dallas. i have no experience with state farm, but i think it's important to differentiate your experience from a typical "accident." hail damage is clearly not the fault of the owner, and also tends to be well publicized in the media, so it's to the ins. co.'s benefit to respond promptly and helpfully. damage like this doesn't imply anything about the likelihood of future claims (unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms), so there's no reason for them to stop covering you. that's a lot different from at-fault accidents or theft-related claims, which may be more indicative of claim patterns. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103705">
<answer instance="rec.autos103705" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 on the subject of the v4,ford in the uk used v4 engines exstensively in their ford transit vans.this brings back a memory from the seventies.i played in a band at the time and for something like 180 pounds four of us bought a 1967 "tranny" to cart the gear around in.it was in terrible shape (cosmetically) because it's last owner was a pig farmer.we spent days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but 'til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents!!!. back to the engine if i remember right it was a 1600cc v4 and that thing could haul,we could fill it with equipment and up to 8 people and it went like a bat out of hell,of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now. when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a morris minor that worked great. ah fond memories. pwe@slipknot.mit.edu "i'd like to own a squadron of tanks" paul w. emery ron nasty--the rutles m i t magnet lab cambridge mass u.s.a. costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek.tngenglandrutles 
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<instance id="rec.autos103706">
<answer instance="rec.autos103706" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 my father is have lots of problems with a 2 year old van. what is the lemon law? what should he do if he qualifies? talk to philip greenspun. he took ford to court recently and, despite much manouvering and trickery on ford's part, he won! well, actually i think ford settled out of court on the provision he shut his mouth and stopped causing them trouble. i love it when the little guy wins. i don't have philip's address anymore, but a "philip, where are you" call may bring him out of hiding. paul heuer | phone : +61 8 259 6453 | avionics technology - dsto pzh@aeg.dsto.gov.au | fax : +61 8 259 5507 | po box 1500, salisbury | south australia, 5108 
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<instance id="rec.autos103708">
<answer instance="rec.autos103708" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just have got to remind all of you that this is it! yes, that's right, somtime this fall, ford (the granddaddy of cars) will be introducing an all-new, mega-cool way-too-fast-for-accord-drivers mustang. it's supposed to be 100% streamlined, looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january. i can't wait. anyone out there hear anything about it recently? if everything i've read is correct, ford is doing nothing but "re- skinning" the existing mustang, with minor suspension modifications. and the pictures i've seen indicate they didn't do a very good job of it. the "new" mustang, is nothing but a re-cycle of a 20 year old car. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103711">
<answer instance="rec.autos103711" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 gk>occasionally, i have trouble shifting into reverse. the shifter gk>refuses to enter the gate, and i often grind the synchros trying to gk>get it into gear. i'll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk>of months. enter 1st, wait 2-3 seconds and then go into reverse. they use the same synchros, and you'll never (at least i haven't) ground-em-to-fit when using this technique. or do like the manual says and put it in 3rd first, then you can quickly go into reverse... no waiting. -- mark rice 803-791-6361 mark.rice@columbiasc.ncr.com my views. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103712">
<answer instance="rec.autos103712" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos? (i'm not talking about bronco ii's, i'm referring to the broncos that began production in 1978 based on the f-150 chassis i believe) ahh broncos. well personally, i have a '78. the blue book is just a hair over 3 grand. i bought it for 2500 and then bought new tires 650 front end rebuild 350, carb rebuild 130. then i did the unthinkable and blew the engine (not bronco specific, unmaintained engine with 168,000) 2400 more bucks there, now it is in nice condition, well after new seats out of a t-bird, radio, 2 amps, speakers, alarm, well the radio and amps were free and i bought the speakers used for 40 bucks, and the other speakers i took out of my old jeep (sell a jeep for a bronco you might ask, but it was a wagoneer). its a lovely specimen, solid front and rear axels, ford 9" and a dana 44 up front. watch the rear axel wrap, i busted off my u-bolts once, i added traction shocks after that and haven't had a problem since. also the bottom of the doors tend to rot, bottom of the tailgates likes to rust right up to the new ones that might be in your budget. the post 80 broncos have that sickly ttb front end and little stamped and folded steel radius arms were as the 78-79 have nice big cast iron longer radius arms(ie more prspective wheel travel). the only rust i have is on my doors and a few dings in the sheet metal. i don't know when the removeable tops were discontinued but they are fun. i just ordered a full convertable top for 400$ for mine(credit card). don't ever break the window if you have the double laminated bronzed privacy glass in your cap it is over 400 bucks to replace. my bronco also does pretty good offroad, i haven't bottomed out my suspension, yet, and have crossed over 3 foot deep of water with no problems, handles rocks like a charm too. one problem is it is wide and you sometimes can't follow a cj or a toyota, between two rocks or trees, and your grandmother will have a hard time getting up into it. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103713">
<answer instance="rec.autos103713" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ... he was as smooth as silk. it was the most amazing shifting demonstration i've ever seen! having said all that i still don't know why anyone would want to shift a synchronized tranny without a clutch? why do it? ego trip... mark walker | my old man always said: mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu | "too much is just right!" 505/277-3688 (home 899-0644) | guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque, nm | in performance cars. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103718">
<answer instance="rec.autos103718" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've heard *unconfirmed* rumours that there is a new integra being released for '94. does anybody have any info on this? the local sales people know as much as i can throw them. --parms. (still no sig). 
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<instance id="rec.autos103720">
<answer instance="rec.autos103720" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (jonathan r. lusky) says: i'm not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup, but in the trans-am cars i've played with the transmissions were the racing variety, with dog clutches instead of sychros. in a transmission with dog clutches, the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts. motorcycle transmissions are the same way. shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage, the only question being how long it takesto grenade something (for the trans in my 87 pulsar se, it was about 3-5k miles, but it had a weak tranny in the first place). just out of curiosity, how is this "dog clutch" any different from a synchro transmission. what you described sounds the same to me. in fact, what little i've studied on trannies, the instructor referred to the synchros as "dogs" and said they were synonymous. the gears are always meshed in a synchronized gearbox, and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting. or at least, that is what i was taught. explain, por favour? ps email's fine if this is inappropriate for here, or if i'm the only bonhead who doesn't know the diff. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103721">
<answer instance="rec.autos103721" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, finnegan@nrlssc.navy.mil () says: the subarus all use 180 degree vees in their engines.. :-) wouldn't that make them an i4? or would they really be an _4 (henceforth referred to as "underscore 4")? i think that it is technicaly known as a 180 degree vee configuration. (could be wrong....this is how i've seen them referred to) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103722">
<answer instance="rec.autos103722" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i just entered the market for a radar detector and am looking for any & all advice/recommendations/warnings/etc from anyone in this group. email is preferred. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103723">
<answer instance="rec.autos103723" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ron> viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that ron> supposedly detects people approcahing the car.... if your viper system were tuned like a neighbor's is you wouldn't get any sleep because of the damn thing waking every one in the neighborhood we all used to try to ignore the alarm, but have now made a pact to bombard the house with night-time visits and phone calls when ever we are awakened because some thunder storm passed over the next county or a stray dog looked at the car. car alarms are a serious pain-in-the-ass! p.s. real men don't have car radios since the exhaust is too loud to hear it anyway <grin>! k a sturrock * anthropology * georgia state university * ksturroc@gsu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos103724">
<answer instance="rec.autos103724" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i have a 90 eagle talon and i wanted a pair of gts headlight covers. actually, they are turning signal covers since the talons that year had pop-up lights. i went to a auto shop and bought the tail-light blackouts for $45, but they did not have the turning signal covers in stock. i asked how much it would be and he told me it would cost me another $40. i thought this was a bit high for two small pieces of plastic. can anyone find me a cheaper pair or even a used one? jay cadiz cadiz@marble.rtsg.mot.com motorola, inc. arlington heights, il 
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<instance id="rec.autos103727">
<answer instance="rec.autos103727" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i agree with jeff's reply. i've never changed the brake fluid except when having a brake job, which is usually at around 80,000 miles (alot of freeway driving). however, i will start to do this as preventative maintenance on my new car. also, there are brake system flushing agents that can be used but the problem is that if any of the agent is left in the system, it can cause problems, so it's been recommended not to use them unless you are 100% certain that you can remove all of the flushing agent. just for your info, i was quoted a price of: labor=$29.95 and fluid=$9.95 for flushing the brake system; this in conjunction with a break job so i don't know if it was more without the brake job. this is in the s.f bay area. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103728">
<answer instance="rec.autos103728" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi javier, (how are things at corp, my old stomping ground was c-level?) vibration when applying the brakes can be caused, on disc brakes at least, by warped rotors. when the brakes are applied, there results uneven pressure on the rotor. turning the rotors by a brake shop will remedy this problem as long as there is enough rotor width left for turning (i.e. within spec). there could be some possible front end suspension problem but a brake shop should be able to confirm warped rotors by a visual inspection which is free. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103729">
<answer instance="rec.autos103729" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 the villager-quest seem like the best of the cravan/voyager copies to <come along since the mazda mpv. the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima 4 speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train, and <the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered. only the price is hmm. the last time i checked, villager/quest does not have a maxima engine, and is very much under powered for its weight. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103733">
<answer instance="rec.autos103733" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i'm not sure if this made it out so i'll try again. i have an ecklar's (sp?) corvette car cover for sale. the cover is canvas on the outside and felt on the inside. it is weather proof and in great condition. i'm asking $95.00 and i'll pay shipping. (originally $175.00 in october of 1992). carl mercer cm@cci.com (716) 359-0895 evening (716) 654-2652 day 
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<instance id="rec.autos103739">
<answer instance="rec.autos103739" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 "jeremy g. mereness" <zonker+@cmu.edu> says: can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe... ala how they do in the long run, repair records, reliability, mileage, etc? i've found mine ('93 probe gt) to do quite well. [window problem deleted, artical has been trimmed] i have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer (where i purchased the car) ... the first time, they made this problem worse. the second time, after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford-probe mailing list (they said they didn't know of the bulletin), they adjusted the window and made it *much* better. however it now makes a "scritch scritch" noise on rough roads, and *still* squeals when i open/close the window in wet weather (anyone elses's do this?) i've not had any of the air or leakage problems that have been reported but do get the squeal that bill describes. i live in seattle so the wet weather may be a factor. ford only gives 1 key with the car. c'mon ford, spend an extra few pennies! if i recall correctly i got two keys. horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center (personal preference) "you've-got-to-position-the-fingers-perfectly-to-make-it-beep" buttons are this is true. i'm wondering if this may be a safety concern. ie, if people pound on the place where the airbag lives... speaking of the horn, i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice 'merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind. the previous probes had japanese horns. no opinion. transmission (the 5 speed is a must) i have always been a 5-speed guy. almost every car i've ever owned has been a 5-speed. because i got a good deal on this car with the 2500 miles, i (knowingly) overlooked the fact that it has an automatic. but it is a pretty high-tech automatic. it is a fully electronicaly controlled 4-speed with the 5 speed is much more fun. we opted for the automatic for a number of reasons but it's still fun, and in some ways more practical. no shake/rattle noises when going over bumps/potholes (still!) shakes and rattles has been my main gripe. i've gotten them to fix the worst of them, but i fear that with the rather harsh ride, the car will be a virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older. i too would suspect that this may be true. tires: 225/55vr16 goodyear eagles (70% left; hoping for 30k :-) very very very well. it sticks to the road like glue, even on a rough yes! interior is very, very nice too. very pleasing to the eye, and ergonomically definitely. ford/mazda did a very very nice job on this one. the car has a "much more expensive than it actually is" look and feel to it. yes, this car's stiff suspension isn't for everyone. i personally like it, but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car, i'd strongly suggest looking into the mx-6. agree. check it out. i don't mind it but would say that if it was much stiffer it might be a problem. (how about the '93 r1 rx-7 for suspension?!) well i wouldn't encourage passenger-carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash. as mentioned in the consumer reports write-ups, "consider the back seat as a parcel shelf". no biggie to me though (if it had been, i'd not have bought the car! (but it's definitely not a family car)). i've heard that the exhaust system has trouble, but mine works fine. i haven't heard about this one. i know that some of the very early probes ('89 and maybe '90) had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers (which i've had this problem and read about it. (or at least i assume the one i had was the one i read about :-). in any case what happened was the weld between the muffler and the pipe feeding it (ok, so i'm not a mechanic) broke. in my case the dealer welded it, ordered replacement parts and put them on when they got them. i suspect this is some sort of 1) design flaw, or 2) production flaw. in any case i have an earlier model and would expect it to be worked out on newer ones. in any case it is a warrantee repair. (or they get the keys back!) from what i've heard, it sounds like ford/mazda had some qc problems with the probe (and probably mx-6) when they first went into production, but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point. that's almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this, though. i have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm. but i seriously feel the car design is sound, and expect it to do very well. i second this. there seems to be some things that slipped through but the car seems very sound. while not perfection (what is) you get an awful lot for your money. bill heiser heiser@acs.bu.edu, heiser@world.std.com boston university, boston ma btw, bill has a probe mailing list. you might want to subscribe to it if you are interested in more detail. try request-ford-probe@world.std.com (did i get that right? never can remember if the request goes on the front or the back :-) ,`,`john navitsky`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`johnn@eskimo.com,`,`,`, ,`,`exercise a right today,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`, 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103740">
<answer instance="rec.autos103740" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 excerpts from rec.autos: 26-apr-93 re: review: 1989 ford tauru.. by mark w. rice@mozart.colu david.bonds@cutting.hou.tx.us (dav gk>occasionally, i have trouble shifting into reverse. the shifter gk>refuses to enter the gate, and i often grind the synchros trying to gk>get it into gear. i'll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk>of months. enter 1st, wait 2-3 seconds and then go into reverse. they use the same synchros, and you'll never (at least i haven't) ground-em-to-fit when using this technique. or do like the manual says and put it in 3rd first, then you can quickly go into reverse... no waiting. one more way, which works in manual trans cars i've driven, and it is my personal favorite (the other suggestions above are great, but try this one, too). while pushing the shifter *gently* towards reverse, let the clutch out slowly (right to the friction point) and the shifter will be pulled into position. if you do it right, the car won't jump backward, nor will the gears grind.... you will just glide back. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103741">
<answer instance="rec.autos103741" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello auto enthusiasts! {stuff deleted} viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car.... this is primarily for convertibles. i have a convertible and have looked at this feature in detail. alpine actually makes a better radar unit if you want to get one of these. it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm, it shuts down the zone, or rather, pulls it in tighter. i don't see the real benefit to these unless you have a convertible that you leave the top down on. avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package. it talks to people as they walk by. i saw one installed on a lotus esprit. the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it 'warned' them to get back. the owner finally disabled it, which defeats the purpose in my mind. {stuff deleted} ron garnett {more stuff deleted} my neighbor runs a viper(r) distributorship and installs them on all saturns sold in my area (anne arundel county, md). he has an sc with the viper voice alarm installed. the alarm does everything, turn on the car, the radio, the heater, roll down windows, unlock the doors... the alarm goes off more frequently on hot days when a person walks by. it gets sensitive up to about 5 feet in 85degree heat. it isn't as bad as convetional siren alarms, because it doesn't continue to wail, it just says "protected by viper, please stand back!" and shuts up... (mainly because the person walks away befuddled!!!") chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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<instance id="rec.autos103742">
<answer instance="rec.autos103742" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 let me explain why i feel the "bogey" counter feature is a gimmick. radar waves bounce off objects especially metal. that is how radar speed measurement works. a high frequency microwave (x band approx 10 ghz and k is approx 24 ghz) is sent out and reflected back to the antenna off of an automobile or other objects. if an object is moving a doppler shift (about 34 hz per mph on x band) occurs, is measured and converted to miles per hour. these waves bounce all over the place and they can reflect many times and go in many directions. from what i understand the valentine-1 can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front, rear or both. there are only two antennas. if they are coming from both this in interpreted as a "side bogey". bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source. i'm certainly no engineer and really have no scientific basis on which to make this argument, but don't you answer your own question? is the reflected signal "shifted" at all from the act of being reflected? if so, wouldn't it then be easy for the detector to discriminate between reflections and direct here is the problem. since the microwaves reflect, how does the unit tell if it is a "source" or a "reflection"? take a valentine-1 and drive to the local grocery store that uses an x-band radar door opener. you can tell by the small black box above the door pointed down at about a 45 degree angle and your detector going off when it gets near. the valentine-1 will count 7 or 8 bogeys from all directions front, rear and sides (it doesn't say which side). the count changes as cars drive by and reflections change. is there 7 or 8 sources? not at the store i go to. as i drive around with a standard detector i can only find one source and that is the door opener for the front door. troy wecker troy@sequent.com sequent computer systems beaverton, or david w. hwang, m.d. [david@ganglion.ann-arbor.mi.us] 
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<instance id="rec.autos103743">
<answer instance="rec.autos103743" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 each valentine 1 is hand tuned to maximum performance is all the radar bands of coverage, this of course, adds to the labor cost and in turn the cost of the i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system. the valentine 1 has saved me many, many, many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area. i have had all the major brand detectors, and, imho, nothing else even comes close to the v1! i don't work for valentine, i am just a satisfied user of their unit! if you really want the nitty gritty details on all this, call the nice folks at valentine research. they will be more than happy to explain their perspective on radar detection and analysis methods. the calls free 1-800-331-3030. it seems that there are more and more "bands" available for police radar each month. i have recently purchased (within the last 8 months) the bel 966stw. while it is not a perfect detector by any means, it does do the job fairly well. now, however, i pick up a car magazine at the airport and read about this super ka wideband which is a superset of the ka wideband that this latest generation of detectors was touted as covering. so now bel has a new series of detectors out that cover all the usual bands (x, k, ka photo, ka wideband) as well as the new super ka wideband. just as there comes a point of diminishing returns when chasing increased pc computing power with faster and faster cpus (for the average home consumer, at least), it seems that there is now the same concern with radar detectors. does it make sense to upgrade just 8 months after purchasing my "new" detector? is valentine upgrading their equipment? if so, it might be worth it for me to upgrade to the valentine. i was in the market for a valentine when i purchased the bel but the 3-4 month waiting time was just too much for me since i had inadequate protection with my passport. life was much simpler when there was just x and k band and escort has the best equipment on the market and there was no need to continuously shop for a new detector. i hope that the flood of new radar bands ceases with this new super wideband business. |[0]---[0] | _|___ |_| ___|_ (_____) allen tobias technical email: (_____) (_____) convex computer corp. marketing tobias@convex.com (_____) (_____) 3000 waterview parkway (_____) (___) richardson, tx 75083 (___) "no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care!" david w. hwang, m.d. [david@ganglion.ann-arbor.mi.us] 
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<instance id="rec.autos103746">
<answer instance="rec.autos103746" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 sighting of such a fine beast. but remember, the mustang will forever be the true king of the road. especially the '68 shelby-american gt-500kr (king of the road, so named to steal gm's planned camaro king of the road's thunder :-) and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road, the gt-40 isn't road legal. i think the gt-40 actually _is_ street legal, although that particular question is moot (see the price figures below). some gt-40s are street legal, some aren't. this car was right hand drive (weren't they all like that?). how much does a gt-40 go for? how many were made? i found my shelby-american guide. there were a grand total 126 gt-40s built: gt-40 coupes 55 gt-40 road cars 31 gt-40 mk ii 13 gt-40 mk iiis 7 gt-40 roadsters 5 mirages 3 gt-40 mk ivs 12 total: 126 additional uncompleted mk iiis 6-12 twelve of these cars were prototypes; 48 racing coupes; 31 road coupes; eight mk ii coupes; 4 lhd mk iiis; and 3 rhd mk iiis. the other breakdowns follow the above list (eg, 12 were mk ivs). the lhd/rhd breakdown is only given on the mk iiis. the prices (for those which can be bought) are around the $1 million mark, last i heard, with a projection of some $3.5 million (or thereabouts) in 2000. it was second only to some penny-ante ferarri ;-). shelby won the fia world manufacturer's cup with his cobras in '65; that was also the year that he retired them from the shelby-american racing team (in favor of the ford gt program the next year). that victory broke a 13(?) year ferarri winning streak. well, there's lotsa info i could spout, but i'll refrain. much of this information comes from "hot rod" magazine's "shelby american cobra/mustang guide," which has more info on the shelby-american fords than you could _ever_ want to know. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103749">
<answer instance="rec.autos103749" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i've heard *unconfirmed* rumours that there is a new integra being released for '94. well, you can just about set your watch by honda releasing new models every 4 years and an upgrade half way through the cars life. the local acura dealership tells me that the new integra will be out very soon, i.e. may/june. its hard to find specific details as the integra has been deleted from most of the rest of the world - i have seen them in canada and australia as well as the u.s. but it was discontinued after the first generation in europe. normally you can see new japanese models appear in europe or japan first and extrapolate from there. c+d reported that the engine would be a carryover i think. does anybody have any info on this? the local sales people know as much as i can throw them. --parms. (still no sig). 
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<instance id="rec.autos103751">
<answer instance="rec.autos103751" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i looked at that bimmer yesterday. it's an '81, has about 90kmi, according to owner (odometer stopped working at 68kmi). drivess well, sounds good, body is ok, he wants $3000. i liked the car, despite it's auto tranny, but my wife will be a primary driver on this one, and she wants auto. the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn (!) the a/c seems to have a leak. the sunroof is sticky, but operational. odometer does not work, as mentioned before. idle is a bit bouncy, going from 900rpm to 1200rpm. wipers are slow. that's teh gripes. the owner says that he changed radiator, alternator, rotors and calipers, exhaust. the biggest problem, is that the owner is a shifty sob, telling strange stories. i hate that. i would never buy from a persom like that, except, how often you see a descent 528i for that amount of money. he also said that, although i could bring a mechanicin, he wouldn't let me check the car by taking it to a garage. suspicious. and who knows what milage is on it. so, let me know what to check for, given there's practically no rust. i know there was an article on 528i in r&d a few years back, anybody remembers what issue? mike.s don't buy it! all of the things you mentioned will just give you headaches later on. also it sounds like the car needs a lot of work and as you probably know bmw's are not cheap to fix either. the owner sounds like a shady character just trying to take advantage of someone. sure $ 3000 sounds good but you should calculate how much the repairs will be. it sounds like you would have to sink in at least $ 1000 to get everything fixed if not more. also never trust anyone as far as mileage is concerned. who knows how many miles are on it and how it was driven. sure people tell you bmw's hold up but you have to consider any car is subject to wear and tear. for all you know it could have 200,000 miles on it. the thing you have to remember is that this isn't the last 528i around either. just wait and keep shopping. for around $ 5000-6000 you can probably find one that is better, needs less repair, and has legitimate mileage unlike the one you are considering. take it from a guy who has been taken a couple of times. good luck. al himsl 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103752">
<answer instance="rec.autos103752" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i can put a 32valve v-8 with twin garret-4s on yugo and get 7.7sec qm. thats useless ... its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track, or on the street. a yugo that will go 1/4mi in 7.7 seconds will _not_ lose on the street. that's just too damn quick. it might be wrapped around a telephone pole at the end of that quarter mile, but it will be there alone... have you detroit beings compared the ultra-long-throw stick shifts of the 5.0 with the 93 mr2 turbo or 93 rx7 (i ll buy it in 6 mos) ? or you could replace the stock shifter with a hurst short-throw shifter (available from ford motorsport), or any number of other after-market products to boost the performance of a mustang or camaro. can you do _that_ with a '93 rx-7, or, verily, with _any_ mr-2? with the detroit aftermarket, you can build a mustang or camaro which is superior to either car you mention for less than the sticker price of either. or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the 5.0 that sounds in every hairpin turn ? well, gee. it works, and it doesn't break. it transmits power to the drive wheels, and it's essentially zero maintenance--and there's an aftermarket in parts for ford and chevy rear-ends, too. and bythe way 5.0 and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks ... hello , this is the 90 's ? well, the '93 mustang cobra (which, from all reports, uses the same running gear as '94 mustang) has 4-wheel disks. i can't speak for the new camaro, but i think it does, too. also, stop and think about the markets here. the mustang is, and always has been, a mass-market sporty car (that's where the "pony car" class came from) with a performance model. that's why it has the econo-box running gear. that was also factored into the design of the mustang from the day lee iacocca conceived his baby; it was designed as a wide-market car--sporty, yet accessible--with room for performance tweaking. the cars you listed are designed for a specific market niche, and they both fit those niches very well. the mustang, at least, does well in multiple markets; i can't speak for the camaro. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103753">
<answer instance="rec.autos103753" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 tony, i believe, first of all, that max's car is an austrailian built car. i don't think its a chopped up u.s. unit. it may be called a kangaroo or roo or something similar-not sure. but, i do recall reading that austrailian cars used ford v-8 engines. the ford v-8 interceptor is, i think, a 428 c.i. cop car motor. whatever the case that small car with a screaming big block ford 428 would probably smoke the tires for miles/kilometers. i hope someone out there can elaborate on the subject. smoke 'em hard, smoke 'em fast. later, david hertrich. '68 lincoln continental 460c.i. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103755">
<answer instance="rec.autos103755" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 disclamer: this is not a flame.. if you anger easily please go on. the next mustang will be ford's highest profile car. it attracts way more attention than the camaro/firebird because it's heritage is more embedded in the general public. don't lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that. fyi: they already did. oh, really. when? too bad that the current mustang can't even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination. the '93 mustang cobra can. check it out. so you think a 93 mustang cobra can match the performance of a new z28?? interesting belief! (who neither owns, nor wants to own any gm or ford product) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103757">
<answer instance="rec.autos103757" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 actually i wasn't too surprised, since i bought it with the rust. any of you got some ideas of getting rid of this cheaply (key word)?? it has eaten all way through on the door panels. can i use bondo? also, is there a good paint that will bond to aluminum rims? the paint thati was on my rims has peeled off, actually, there's some rust looking 'stuff' on the rims themselves... but it comes off pretty easily. one more thing... have any of you done self-painting to a car? how do you start? what do i need to do this? please help me! 
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<instance id="rec.autos103760">
<answer instance="rec.autos103760" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi, i was looking for some helpful advice. i'm a university student with about $7000 to spend, and i'm looking for a used car. does anyone have any useful advice they could offer to a first- time buyer? i'm not looking for anything sporty, just something functional and reliable (less maintenance costs). anybody have any ideas on what models might suit me? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103762">
<answer instance="rec.autos103762" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, nuet_ke@pts.mot.com (keith nuetzman x3153 p7625) says: help!!! my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car. we live in south fla., so we are definitely in the right are for one. my wife has mentioned the miata, but i think it is too small. i would like to wait for the new mustangs ( dec. '93 i think). anyone have any opinions on any/all convertibles in a reasonable price range. geo metro lsi 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103763">
<answer instance="rec.autos103763" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 in a previous article, callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (james p. callison) says: in a previous article, wrat@unisql.uucp (wharfie) says: larger engine. that's what the sho is -- a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine. they didn't even bother improving the *brakes.* that shows how much you know about anything. the brakes on the sho are very different - 9 inch (or 9.5? i forget) discs all around, vented in front. the normal taurus setup is (smaller) discs front, drums rear. one i saw had vented rears too...it was on a lot. of course, the sales man was a fool..."titanium wheels"..yeah, right.. then later told me they were "magnesium"..more believable, but still crap, since al is so m uch cheaper, and just as good.... i tend to agree, tho that this still doesn't take the sho up to "standard" for running 130 on a regular basis. the brakes should be bigger, like 11" or so...take a look at the ones on the corrados.(where they have braking regulations). well, let's see...my t-bird sc has a computer-controlled adjustable suspension, 4-wheel abs disks (11" vented front, 10" (?) rear), 3-point belts, sturdy passenger compartment, aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change, 210 hp/310 ft-lb supercharged 3.8l v6, 4-wheel independent suspension (plus limited-slip differential), with a top speed in excess of 130mph, and rides on v-rated tires (i have yet to find 225/60-r16s in any other speed rating). is that "up to standard"? if not, why not? james, i really hate to do this, but try reading the damn posts! never was a t'bird mentioned. the discussion was about sho's and 'stangs not being up to spec. i do not know about t'birds. i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff. this does not in any way disencourage* me from wishing to own one, nor does it make it a bad car. it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes, as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit (if memory serves right, which it may very well not) and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it. c ya 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103765">
<answer instance="rec.autos103765" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper. i took it out for a test drive, without his knowledge, and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket. wierd dream, i wonder what it means.... vell...let's see...vas you muzzah in der passenger seat? or vas you muzzah in der leefing room, vit you fazah? (feeling a tad bit freudian, doubtless inspired by the magnificent phallic-ness (some word) of the viper) 
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<instance id="rec.autos103766">
<answer instance="rec.autos103766" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 : >i'm not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons, but i would ask you if : >you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your : >alarm? i can think of worse things in the world. glad you got out of there : >before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun. i think people have a right to kill to defend their property. why not? be honest: do you really care more about scum than about your car? yo! watch the attributions--i didn't say that! again, this isn't an appropriate forum for discussions on whether you should shoot someone for property damage/vandalism/theft, but every responsible gun owner realizes that there are limits, and the punishment must fit the crime. i mean, think about it--is a (really) harmless prank worth killing over? as i said, the situation described (punks setting off alarms and taunting people to come out) could turn very ugly very quickly, and it is worth being prepared when your life is potentially on the line. james p. callison microcomputer coordinator, u of oklahoma law center callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu disclaimer: i'm not an engineer, but i play one at work... the forecast calls for thunder...'89 t-bird sc "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. you take away all he has and all he's ever gonna have." --will munny, "unforgiven" 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103768">
<answer instance="rec.autos103768" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 sorry for the mis-spelling, but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no-on hand reference here. is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep-wanna-be's? a replica would be great i think. -tkh '93 according to _the complete guide to specialty cars_, 7th edition, from crown publishing, it's the vw kubelwagen (w/ 2 dots over the 'u'). the company is: p.o. box 1608, vika 0119 oslo 1, norway 011-47-30-26601 voice line 011-47-2-166138 fax line an excerpt from the blurb: ...this fine kubel clone from wolfkam is a very close copy of the original, and offers the same all-weather and cross-country capabilities as its wwii forebears. the robust fiberglass body kit is very complete, and includes all the hardware you will need, except for your own vw donor car. the phone number [...] is the entire at&t dialing sequence; call and ask for karl torum, or send $5 cash or _international money order_ for a complete literature package. p.s., i'd be happy to share what info i have on other kit cars and kit car manufacturers. p.p.s., i'm looking for a used or partially completed porsche 356 speedster convertible d replica from intermeccanica. i'd appreciate any leads or advice/stories from any owners out there. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103771">
<answer instance="rec.autos103771" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 tony, i believe, first of all, that max's car is an austrailian built car. i don't think its a chopped up u.s. unit. the last v8 in mad max is based on a holden (australia). holden is linked with gm (vauxhall gb) and so they're quite unlikely to use ford parts. chris crh@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de 
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<instance id="rec.autos103775">
<answer instance="rec.autos103775" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 can taking the car to a car wash hurt the car's finish? and if so, is it better to hand wash it about once a month, or just take it to the car wash anyway? are detailing places worth the money? if i do a good, careful job on washing and waxing, is a detail place going to be worth it? reply to my email address: pfk1@crux1.cit.cornell.edu my views reflect cornell's. sue them dry. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103777">
<answer instance="rec.autos103777" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 don't the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters? i.e. ls400 = 4.0litre engine, sc300 = 3.0 liter "sport coupe".. and q45 = 4.5liter.. (similar, kinda, to bmw and mb nameing deal). funny, i thought the numbering scheme for both lexus and infiniti was related to sticker price more than anything else, i.e. infiniti g20 (around 20k), q45 (around 45k), lexus es250 (rip) (around 25k), lexus es300 (around 30k), etc. is there a conspiracy theory there? spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com software technology, delco electronics (317) 451-0815 gm hughes electronics, kokomo, in 46904 "i post, therefore i armm" 
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<instance id="rec.autos103779">
<answer instance="rec.autos103779" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i still can't understand all the hype about the impalla ss, it still has the ugly caprice body (orca on wheels). the caprice was the worst new body style to come out of detroit ever! now just because the lt1 engine and a few suspension tweeks are being added. its still ugly, its still a barge. gm's answer to everything is "throw in a v8 and someone will buy it." or "add some plastic ground affects and a few stickers and call it a gt, gtz or ss, and someone will buy it." imho gm needs to scrap the caprice body completely and start over with a blank sheet of paper. no minor modification (wheel well treatments, tail amp modification, or nose re-design or even the lt1 engine) will help the existing caprice. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103780">
<answer instance="rec.autos103780" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 re: extended ka bands. i recently bought a 2 band detector. you guys must all think i'm nuts, right? well, i did a little research into ka usage in this area and found out that ka is not currently being used in this state as well as surrounding states. here's how i found out: - a cop friend who did spend time nailing speeders doesn't even know what ka is. he's heard of k, which is what they use here and i explained that ka is used for photo radar etc.. he then said, yeah, "ka stands for k automatic"... duuhh. he then went on to say that plans were being made for getting laser guns as far as going high tech were concerned, but he didn't know too much. - my 8 year old 2 band whistler was consistently going off at speed traps, even the real sneaky ones. - when i called the escort shop, they confirmed that ka is not used here or in surrounding states. they did claim that laser was being used a lot here, which i was quite skeptical of. so in the end, instead of spending a lot of money and/or waiting months for a state of the art detector, i got a low priced, high performance 2 band escort 2200. incidentally its performance is equal to their top of the line model in x and k band detection. i know that escort has been surpassed by other brands lately, but i've never fully relied on a detector and i was convinced that the escorts would be at least quite good, which was good enough for me and my wallet. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103806">
<answer instance="rec.autos103806" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 i also experience this kinda problem in my 89 bmw 318. during cold start ups, the clutch seems to be sticky and everytime i drive out, for about 5km, the clutch seems to stick onto somewhere that if i depress the clutch, the whole chassis moves along. but after preheating, it becomes smooth again. i think that your suggestion of being some humudity is right but there should be some remedy. i also found out that my clutch is already thin but still alright for a couple grand more! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103807">
<answer instance="rec.autos103807" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hello everyone, i have an insurance question. allstate insurance situation: person wrecks car. car is drivable to dealer. person reports accident (no other cars involved). driver estimates damage cost exceedes cost of car. insurance people claim car is "totalled" because of exceeding repair costs. person says "wwhhhaatttt!!!! but i drove the car here!" and takes it to another place. other place estimates 2,101.00 in damage. 2,000 less than the one more hitch... the car is registered in florida but the accident occurred in pennsyvania. question: should the insurance recognize and pay for the damages of this, now fixable, car even though they prematurly declared totalled? please respond via e-mail if you think you know anything about this sort of chris@camp.wpic.pitt.edu thanks... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.autos103808">
<answer instance="rec.autos103808" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 okay, okay, i know the ford probe is made in the us, in fact it's made in michigan, at a mazda plant. my question: are most of the parts from american or japanese sources? i have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles. any information anyone has on this will be appreciated! ford aimed for 75% us content when they designed the new probe. in actual practice it came out to 77% us content. if my '89 is any example the 23% that is imported may be the engine and brakes, at least the '89 had missybitchy brakes. tim newman newman@cps.msu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.autos103810">
<answer instance="rec.autos103810" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 and bythe way 5.0 and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks ... hello , this is the 90 's ? vlasis theodore good point. you would think by now that most car companies would just make 4 wheel disc standard and be done with it. can it really cost that much more for disc? especially when you think of the economies of scale they would gain by just making them all 4 wheel disc. no seperate parts numbers and orders etc. btw, the z28 and trans am and formula have 4wheel disc, but the bottom line models have the rear drums. 
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<instance id="rec.autos103813">
<answer instance="rec.autos103813" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 ashtrays and cigarette lighters. these should be an *option*. you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights. the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens. wouldn't you rather have some type of standard "electrical" plug instead of that "fire hazard waiting to happen" adaptor? i know i would, and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray. (my car came with coin holders already built in) exactly. you took the words right out of my mouth, ron :-) nancy j. feagans (818) 306-6423 jet propulsion lab nancy@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov "not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." 
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<instance id="rec.autos103814">
<answer instance="rec.autos103814" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 hi there, maybe you can help me... i have an '88 corolla with a 5 speed as the subject line says. the gearbox seems excessivly clunky. i used to have an '85 corolla, and it was also somewhat clunky, but it had 30,000 more miles on it, and it wasn't nearly as bad as this car! is there fluid in the 5speed case? if there is, could it just be low, or in need of a change? as i recall, only the autos have fluid. or am i just mistaken? please no flames for owning an import. i also have an old dodge, but it's not in very good shape these days... 
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<instance id="rec.autos103815">
<answer instance="rec.autos103815" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 well, the opel deal fell through... now i'm looking at a datsun 240z for sale in our local buy&sell. any previous owners have any experience with these cars? besides looking for rust,good compression,low miles, and all the other usual car things one looks for, is there anything special about these cars that i should watch out for? how about things like handling,performance,mileage,etc. these cars look hot, to my eyes at least, and bear more than a passing resemblance to the aston martin db4 zagato(sp?), which has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made. what is the difference between 240z, 260z, 280z? the 280zx is rather unappealing imho, but the other cars are decent. thanks again... darren gibbons gibbonsa@sfu.ca 
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<instance id="rec.autos103895">
<answer instance="rec.autos103895" senseid="rec.autos"/>
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 with spring upon us it's time to start waxing again. i was wondering if anyone had any suggestions about waxes and polishes. i know carnuba wax is often recommended on the net, but i was wondering about the colored waxes to cover up some minor scratches. do the colored waxes give on overall good quality shine? are they good for the paint or clear coat? what about liquid glass, is it a clear polish which dries clear; thus filling scratches? is it good for the paint/clear coat? please post with both good and bad experiences. and hey, let's name names (brands) here! ;^) all gimmicks! stick with plain 'ol carnauba wax that's non-abrasive. eagle 1, meguiars, turtle wax, and a few others are good examples. the colored waxes just color in the scratches so they're not so apparent. the better approach is to buff minor scratches completely off with a cleaner/mild abrasive. never tried liquid glass, although i still have this sample they sent me a few years back. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles101725">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles101725" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a couple of years ago i replaced the stock windscreen on my interceptor with a higher one from national cycle. the thing happens to be made of can anyone recommend a polish to use on it that is safe for lexan? its starting to show a few scratches, and id like to polish them out.. go fast! | internet: wilken@plains.nodak.edu | ama #587126 take chances! | uucp: ..!uunet!plains!wilken | dod #0087 vf700f interceptor | bitnet: wilken@plains | suggest mcquires #1 plastic polish. it will help somewhat but nothing will remove deep scratches without making it worse than it already is. mcquires will do something for fine or light stuff. also suggest calling your local plastic shop. in calif. "tap plastic" is a chain that carries most of what is needed for repair and sometimes replacement of plastic bits. telephone in the bay area is 415-962-8430. i'm not sure how amenable they are to shipping. i have found that they have several excellent products for cleaning, and removing crap from windscreens and face shields. also they have one called "lift-it" which works real well in removing sticky stuffs such as adhessives from plastic wihtout scratching same. jonathan jefferies, jeff@mri.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles102616">
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 this is a periodic posting intended to answer the frequently asked question: what is the dod? it is posted the first of each month, with an expiration time of over a month. thus, unless your site's news software is ill-mannered, this posting should always be available. this witdodfaq is crossposted to all four rec.motorcycles groups in an attempt to catch most new users, and followups are directed to rec.motorcycles. last changed 9-feb-93 to add a message from the kotl, and a bit of version 1.1 this collection was originally assembled by lissa shoun, from the original postings. with lissa's permission, i have usurped the title of kotwitdodfaq. any corrections, additions, bribes, etc. should be aimed at blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com. contents: how do i get a dod number? by blaine gardner dod #46 dod "road rider" article by bruce tanner dod #161 what is the dod? by john sloan dod #11 the dod logo by chuck rogers dod #3 the dod (this started it all) by the denizen of doom dod #1 the dod anthem by jonathan quist dod #94 why you have to be killed by blaine gardner dod #46 the rec.moto.photo.archive courtesy of bruce tanner dod #161 patches? what patches? by blaine gardner dod #46 letter from the ama museum by jim rogers, director dod #395 the dod rules by consensus other rec.moto resources by various keepers dod #misc the rec.moto.reviews.archive courtesy of loki jorgenson dod #1210 updated stats & rides info by ed green (dod #111) and others how do i get a dod number? if the most frequently asked question in rec.motorcycles is "what is the dod?", then the second most frequently asked question must be "how do i get a dod number?" that is as simple as asking the keeper of the list (kotl, accept no substitue keepers) for a number. if you're feeling creative, and your favorite number hasn't been taken already, you can make a request, subject to kotl approval. (warning, non-numeric, non- base-10 number requests are likely to earn a flame from the kotl. not that you won't get it, but you _will_ pay for it.) oh, and just one little, tiny suggestion. ask the kotl in e-mail. you'll just be playing the lightning rod for flames if you post to the whole net, and you'll look like a clueless newbie too. by now you're probably asking "so who's the kotl already?". well, as john sloan notes below, that's about the only real "secret" left around here, but a few (un)subtle hints can be divulged. first, it is not myself, nor anyone mentioned by name in this posting (maybe :-), though john was the original kotl. second, in keeping with the true spirit of unix, the kotl's first name is only two letters long, and can be spelled entirely with hexadecimal characters. (2.5, the kotl shares his name with a line- oriented text utility.) third, he has occasionally been seen posting messages bestowing new dod numbers (mostly to boneheads with "weenie mailers"). fourth, there is reason to suspect the kotl of being a dead-head. ***************** newsflash: a message from the kotl ****************** once you have surmounted this intellectual pinnacle and electronically groveled to the kotl, please keep in mind that the kotl does indeed work for a living, and occasionally must pacify its boss by getting something done. your request may languish in mailer queue for (gasp!) days, perhaps even (horrors!) a week or two. during such times of economic activity on the part of the kotl's employers, sending yet another copy of your request will not speed processing of the queue (it just makes it longer, verification of this phenominon is left as an excersize for the reader). if you suspect mailer problems, at least annotate subsequent requests with an indication that a former request was submitted, lest you be assigned multiple numbers (what, you think the kotl *memorizes* the list?!?). one more thing, the kotl says that its telepathic powers aren't what they used to be. so provide some information for the list, will ya? the typical dod list entry contains number, name, state/country, & e-mail address. for example: 0111:ed green:ca:ed.green@east.sun.com (ps: while john mentions below that net access and a bike are the only requirements for dod membership, that's not strictly true these days, as there are a number of denizens who lack one or both.) blaine (dances with bikers) gardner blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com "denizens of doom", by bruce tanner (dod 0161) [road rider, august 1991, reprinted with bruce's permission] there is a group of motorcyclists that gets together and does all the normal things that a bunch of bikers do. they discuss motorcycles and motorcycling, beverages, cleaning fluids, baklavah, balaclava, caltrops, helmets, anti-fog shields, spine protectors, aerodynamics, three-angle valve seats, bird hits, deer whistles, good restaurants, racing philosophy, traffic laws, tickets, corrosion control, personalities, puns, double entendres, culture, absence of culture, first rides and friendship. they argue with each other and plan rides together. the difference between this group and your local motorcycle club is that, although they get together just about everyday, most have never seen each other face to face. the members of this group live all over the known world and communicate with each other electronically via computer. the computers range from laptops to multi-million dollar computer centers; the people range from college and university students to high-tech industry professionals to public-access electronic bulletin-board users. currently, rec.motorcycles (pronounced "wreck-dot-motorcycles," it's the file name for the group's primary on-line "meeting place") carries about 2250 articles per month; it is read by an estimated 29,000 people. most of the frequent posters belong to a motorcycle club, the denizens of doom, usually referred to as the dod. the dod started when motorcyclist john r. nickerson wrote a couple of parodies designed to poke fun at motorcycle stereotypes. fellow computer enthusiast bruce robinson posted these articles under the pen name, "denizen of doom." a while later chuck rogers signed off as dod nr. 0003 keeper of the flame. bruce was then designated dod nr. 0002, retroactively and, of course, nickerson, the originator of the parodies, was given dod nr. 0001. the idea of a motorcycle club with no organization, no meetings and no rules appealed to many, so john sloan -- dod nr. 0011 -- became keeper of the list, issuing dod numbers to anyone who wanted one. to date there have been almost 400 memberships issued to people all over the united states and canada, as well as australia, new zealand, the united kingdom, france, germany, norway and finland. keeper of the list sloan eventually designed a club patch. the initial run of 300 patches sold out immediately. the profits from this went to the american motorcycle heritage foundation. another amhf fund raiser -- selling denizens of doom pins to members -- was started by arnie skurow a few months later. again, the project was successful and the profits were donated to the foundation. so far, the denizens have contributed over $1500 to the ama museum. a plaque in the name of the denizens of doom now hangs in the motorcycle heritage museum. as often as possible, the dod'ers crawl out from behind their crts and go riding together. it turns out that the two largest concentrations of dod'ers are centered near denver/boulder, colorado, and in california's "silicon valley." consequently, two major events are the annual assault on rollins pass in colorado, and the northern versus southern california "joust." the ride-and-feed is a bike trip over rollins pass, followed by a big barbecue dinner. the concept for the joust is to have riders from northern california ride south; riders from southern california to ride north, meeting at a predesignated site somewhere in the middle. an additional plan for 1991 is to hold an official denizens of doom homecoming in conjunction with the ama heritage homecoming in columbus, ohio, in july. though it's a safe bet the the denizens of doom and their collective communications hub, rec.motorcycles, will not replace the more traditional motorcycle organizations, for those who prowl the electronic pathways in search of two-wheeled camaraderie, it's a great way for kindred spirits to get together. long may they flame. "live to flame -- flame to live" [centerbar] this official motto of the denizens of doom refers to the ease with which you can gratuitously insult someone electronically, when you would not do anything like that face to face. these insults are known as "flames"; issuing them is called "flaming." flames often start when a member disagrees with something another member has posted over the network. a typical, sophisticated, intelligent form of calm, reasoned rebuttal would be something like: "what an incredibly stupid statement, you spandex-clad poseur!" this will guarantee that five other people will reply in defense of the original poster, describing just what they think of you, your riding ability and your cat. _the denizens of doom: the saga unfolds_ by john sloan dod #0011 periodically the question "what is dod?" is raised. this is one of those questions in the same class as "why is the sky blue?", "if there is a god, why is there so much suffering in the world?" and "why do women inevitably tell you that you're such a nice guy just before they dump you?", the kinds of questions steeped in mysticism, tradition, and philosophy, questions that have inspired research and discussion by philosophers in locker rooms, motorcycle service bays, and in the halls of academe for generations. a long, long time ago (in computer time, where anything over a few minutes is an eternity and the halting problem really is a problem) on a computer far, far away on the net (topologically speaking; two machines in the same room in atlanta might route mail to one another via a system in chicago), a chap who wished to remain anonymous (but who was eventually assigned the dod membership #1) wrote a satire of the various personalities and flame wars of rec.motorcycles, and signed it "the denizen of doom". not wishing to identify himself, he asked that stalwart individual who would in the fullness of time become dod #2 to post it for him. dod #2, not really giving a whit about what other people thought and generally being a right thinking individual, did so. flaming and other amusements followed. he who would become the holder of dod membership #3 thought this was the funniest thing he'd seen in a while (being the sort that is pretty easily amused), so he claimed membership in the denizens of doom motorcycle club, and started signing his postings with his membership perhaps readers of rec.motorcycles were struck with the vision of a motorcycle club with no dues, no rules, no restrictions as to brand or make or model or national origin of motorcycle, a club organized electronically. it may well be that readers were yearning to become a part of something that would provide them with a greater identity, a gestalt personality, something in which the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. it could also be that we're all computer nerds who wear black socks and sneakers and pocket protectors, who just happen to also love taking risks on machines with awesome power to weight ratios, social outcasts who saw a clique that would finally be open minded enough to accept us as members. in a clear case of self fulfilling prophesy, the denizens of doom motorcycle club was born. a club in which the majority of members have never met one another face to face (and perhaps like it that way), yet feel that they know one another pretty well (or well enough given some of the electronic personalities in the newsgroup). a club organized and run (in the loosest sense of the word) by volunteers through the network via electronic news and mail, with a membership/mailing list (often used to organize group rides amongst members who live in the same region), a motto, a logo, a series of photo albums circulating around the country (organized by dod #9), club patches (organized by #11), and even an mtv-style music video (produced by #47 and distributed on vhs by #18)! where will it end? who knows? will the dod start sanctioning races, placing limits on the memory and clock rate of the on-board engine management computers? will the dod organize poker runs where each participant collects a hand of hardware and software reference cards? will the dod have a rally in which the attendees demand a terminal room and at least a 386-sized unix system? only time will tell. the dod has no dues, no rules, and no requirements other than net access and a love for motorcycles. to become a member, one need only ask (although we will admit that who you must ask is one of the few really good club secrets). new members will receive via email a membership number and the latest copy of the membership list, which includes name, state, and email address. the denizens of doom motorcycle club will live forever (or at least until next year when we may decided to change the name). live to flame - flame to live the dod daemon as seen on the patches, pins, etc. by chuck rogers, car377@druhi.att.com, dod #0003 :-( dod )-: :-( x __ __ x )-: :-( x / / \ \ x )-: :-( x / / -\-----/- \ \ x )-: :-( l | \/ \ / \/ | f )-: :-( i | / \ / \ | l )-: :-( v \/ __ / __ \/ a )-: :-( e / / \ / \ \ m )-: :-( | | \ / | | e )-: :-( t | | . | _ | . | | )-: :-( o | \___// \\___/ | t )-: :-( \ \_/ / o )-: :-( f \___ ___/ )-: :-( l \ \ / / l )-: :-( a \ vvvvv / i )-: :-( m | ( ) | v )-: :-( e | ^^^^^ | e )-: :-( x \_______/ x )-: :-( x x )-: :-( x rec.motorcycles x )-: :-( usenet )-: the dod by the denizen of doom dod #1 welcome one and all to the flamingest, most wonderfullest newsgroup of all time: wreck.mudder-disciples or is it reak.mudder-disciples? the names have been changes to protect the guilty (riders) and innocent (the bikes) alike. if you think you recognize a contorted version of your name, you don't. it's just your guilt complex working against you. read 'em and weep. we tune in on a conversation between some of our heros. terrible barbarian is extolling the virtues of his hopalonga puff-a-cane to reverend muck mudgers and stompin fueling-injection: terrible: this hopalonga is the greatest... beats bmws dead!! muck: i don't mean to preach, terrible, but lighten up on the bmw crowd eh? i mean like i like riding my yuka-yuka fudgeo-jammer 11 but what the heck. stompin: no way, the bmw is it, complete, that's all man. terrible: nahhhh, you're sounding like heritick ratatnack! hey, at least he is selling his bmw and uses a hopalonga intercorruptor! not as good as a puff-a-cane, should have been called a woosh-a-stream. stompin: you mean wee-stream. terrible: waddya going to do? call in reinforcements??? stompin: yehh man. here comes arlow scarecrow and high tech. let's see what they say, eh? muck: now men, let's try to be civil about this. high tech: hi, i'm a 9 and the bmw is the greatest. arlow: other than my b.t. i love my bmw! terrible: b.t.??? arlow: burley thumpison, the greatest all american ride you can own. muck: ahhh, look, you're making terrible gag. terrible: what does bmw stand for anyway??? muck, arlow, high: beats me, wilhelm. terrible: actually, my name is terrible. hmmm, i don't know either. muck: say, here comes chunky bear. chunky: hey, hey, hey! smarter than your average bear! terrible: hey, didn't you drop your bmw??? chunky: all right eh, a little booboo, but i left him behind. i mean even villy ogle flamed me for that! muck: it's okay, we all makes mistakes. out of the blue the west coasters arrive, led by tread orange with dill snorkssy, heritick ratatnack, buck garnish, snob rasseller and the perenial favorite: hooter boobin brush! heritick: heya terrible, how's yer front to back bias? terrible: not bad, sold yer bmw? heritick: nahhh. hooter: hoot, hoot. buck: nice tree hooter, how'd ya get up there? hooter: carbujectors from hell!!! muck: what's a carbujector? hooter: well, it ain't made of alumican!!! made by tilloslert!! muck: ahh, come on down, we aren't going to flame ya, honest!! dill: well, where do we race? snob: you know, chunky, we know about about your drop and well, don't ride! muck: no! no! quiet! tread: bmw's are the greatest in my supreme level headed opinion. they even have luggage made by sourkraut! high: my 9 too! terrible, heritick, dill, buck: nahhhhh!!! stompin, tread, high, chunky, snob: yesss yessssss!!! before this issue could be resolved the hopalonga crew called up more cohorts from the local area including polyanna stirrup and the infamous booster robiksen on his cavortin! polyanna: well, men, the real bikers use stirrups on their bikes like i use on my hopalonga evening-bird special. helpful for getting it up on the ole ventral stand! terrible: hopalonga's are great like polyanna says and yuka-yuka's and sumarikis and kersnapis are good too! booster: i hate cavortin. all: we know, we know. booster: i love cavortin. all: we know we know. muck: well, what about mucho guzlers and lepurras? snob, tread: nawwwwww. muck: what about a tridump? terrible: isn't that a chewing gum? muck: auggggg, waddda about a pluck-a-kity? heritick: heyya muck, you tryin' to call up the demon rider himself? muck: no, no. there is more to mudder-disciples than arguing about make. two more riders zoom in, in the form of pill turret and phalanx lifter. pill: out with dorsal stands and ventral stands forever. phalanx: hey, i don't know about that. and now even more west coasters pour in. road o'noblin: hopalonga's are the greatest! maulled beerstein: may you sit on a bikejector! suddenly more people arrived from the great dark nurth: kite lanolin: hey, bmw's are great, men. robo-nickie: i prefer motorcycle to robot transformers, personally. more riders from the west coast come into the discussion: aviator sourgas: get a burley-thumpison with a belted-rigged frame. guess gasket: go with a bmw or burley-thumpison. with a roar and a screech the latest mudder-disciple thundered in. it was none other that clean bikata on her hopalonga cabammerxorn. clean: like look, hopalonga are it but only cabammerxorns. muck: why?? clean: well, like it's gotta be a 6-banger or nothin. muck: but i only have a 4-banger. clean: no good! chunky: sob, some of us only have 2-bangers! clean: inferior! stompin: hey, look, here's proof bmw's are better. the bimmer-boys burst into song: (singing) beemer babe, beemer babe give me a thrill... road, terrible, polyanna, maulled, dill etc.: wadddoes bmw stand for? heritick, stompin, snob, chunky, tread, kite, high, arlow: beat's me, wilhem! road, terrible, polyanna, maulled, dill etc.: oh, don't you mean bmw? and so the ensuing argument goes until the skies clouded over and the thunder roared and the greatest mudder-disciple (g.m.d.) of them all boomed out. g.m.d.: enough of your bickering! you are doomed to riding bigot & suction powered mini-trikes for your childish actions. all: no, no, no!!! puhlease. does this mean that all of the wreck.mudder-disciples will be riding mini-trikes? are our arguing heros doomed? tune in next week for the next gut wretching episode of "the yearning and riderless" with its ever increasing cast of characters. where all technical problems will be flamed over until well done. next week's episode will answer the question of: "to helmet or not to helmet" will be aired, this is heady material and viewer discretion is advised. script for the denizens of doom anthem video by jonathan e. quist dod #94 [scene: a sterile engineering office. a lone figure, whom we'll call chuck, stands by a printer output bin, wearing a white cdc lab coat, with 5 mechanical pencils in a pocket protector.] (editor's note: for some reason a great deal of amusement was had at the first annual dod uni-coastal ironhorse ride & joust by denizens referring to each other as "chuck". i guess you had to be there. i wasn't.) chuck: i didn't want to be a software systems analyst, cow-towing to the whims of a machine, and saying yessir, nosir, may-i-have-another-sir. my mother made me do it. i wanted to live a man's life, [music slowly builds in background] riding nortons and triumphs through the highest mountain passes and the deepest valleys, living the life of a motorcyclist; doing donuts and evading the police; terrorizing old ladies and raping small children; eating small dogs for tea (and large dogs for dinner). in short, i want to be a denizen! [chuck rips off his lab coat, revealing black leather jacket (with fringe), boots, and cap. scene simultaneously changes to the top of an obviously assaulted rollins pass. a small throng of hell's angels sit on their harleys in the near background, gunning their engines, showering lookers-on with nails as they turn donuts, and leaking oil on the tarmac. chuck is standing in front of a heavily chromed fat boy.] chuck [sings to the tune of "the lumberjack song"]: i'm a denizen and i'm okay, i flame all night and i ride all day. [hell's angels echo chorus, surprisingly heavy on tenors]: he's a denizen and he's okay, he flames all night and he rides all day. i ride my bike; i eat my lunch; i go to the lavat'ry. on wednesdays i ride skyline, running children down with glee. [chorus]: he rides his bike; he eats his lunch; he goes to the lavat'ry. on wednesdays he rides skyline, running children down with glee. [chorus refrain]: 'cause he's a denizen... i ride real fast, my name is chuck, it somehow seems to fit. i over-rate the worst bad f*ck, but like a real good sh*t. oh, i'm a denizen and i'm okay! i flame all night and i ride all day. [chorus refrain]: oh, he's a denizen... i wear high heels and bright pink shorts, full leathers and a bra. i wish i rode a harley, just like my dear mama. [chorus refrain] why you have to be killed. well, the first thing you have to understand (just in case you managed to read this far, and still not figure it out) is that the dod started as a joke. and in the words of one denizen, it intends to remain one. sometime in the far distant past, a hapless newbie asked: "what does dod stand for? it's not the department of defense is it?" naturally, a denizen who had watched the movie "top gun" a few times too many rose to the occasion and replied: "that's classified, we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you." and the rest is history. a variation on the "security" theme is to supply disinformation about what dod stands for. notable contributions (and contributers, where known) include: daughters of democracy (dod 23) doers of donuts dancers of despair (dod 9) debasers of daughters dickweeds of denver driveway of death debauchers of donuts dumpers of dirtbikes note that this is not a comprehensive list, as variations appear to be limited only by the contents of one's imagination or dictionary file. the rec.moto.photo archive first a bit of history, this all started with ilana stern and chuck rogers organizing a rec.motorcycles photo album. many copies were made, and several sets were sent on tours around the world, only to vanish in unknown locations. then bruce tanner decided that it would be appropriate for an electronic medium to have an electronic photo album. bruce has not only provided the disk space and ftp & e-mail access, but he has taken the time to scan most of the photos that are available from the archive. not only can you see what all these folks look like, you can also gawk at their motorcycles. a few non-photo files are available from the server too, they include the dod membership list, the dod yellow pages, the general rec.motorcycles faq, and this faq posting. here are a couple of excerpts from from messages bruce posted about how to use the archive. via ftp: cerritos.edu [130.150.200.21] via e-mail: the address is server@cerritos.edu. the commands are given in the body of the message. the current commands are dir and send, given one per line. the arguments to the commands are vms style file specifications. for rec.moto.photo the file spec is [dod]file. for example, you can send: dir [dod] send [dod]bruce_tanner.gif send [dod]dodframe.ps and you'll get back 5 mail messages; a directory listing, 3 uuencoded parts of bruce_tanner.gif, and the dodframe.ps file in ascii. oh, wildcards (*) are allowed, but a maximum of 20 mail messages (rounded up to the next whole file) are send. a 'send [dod]*.gif' would send 150 files of 50k each; not a good idea. bruce tanner (213) 860-2451 x 596 tanner@cerritos.edu cerritos college norwalk, ca cerritos!tanner a couple of comments: bruce has put quite a bit of effort into this, so why not drop him a note if you find the rec.moto.photo archive useful? second, since bruce has provided the server as a favor, it would be kind of you to access it after normal working hours (california time). patches? what patches? you may have heard mention of various dod trinkets such as patches & pins. and your reaction was probably: "i want!", or "that's sick!", or perhaps "that's sick! i want!" well, there's some good news and some bad news. the good news is that there's been an amazing variety of dod-labeled widgets created. the bad news is that there isn't anywhere you can buy any of them. this isn't because of any "exclusivity" attempt, but simply because there is no "dod store" that keeps a stock. all of the creations have been done by individual denizens out of their own pockets. the typical procedure is someone says "i'm thinking of having a dod frammitz made, they'll cost $xx.xx, with $xx.xx going to the ama museum. anyone want one?" then orders are taken, and a batch of frammitzes large enough to cover the pre-paid orders is produced (and quickly consumed). so if you want a dod doodad, act quickly the next time somebody decides to do one. or produce one yourself if you see a void that needs filling, after all this is anarchy in action. here's a possibly incomplete list of known dod merchandise (and perpetrators). patches (dod#11), pins (dod#99), stickers (dod#99), motorcycle license plate frames (dod#216), t-shirts (dod#99), polo shirts (dod#122), zippo lighters (dod#99) [ltf ftl], belt buckles (dod#99), and patches (dod#99) [a second batch was done (and rapidly consumed) by popular demand]. all "profits" have been donated to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum. as of june 1992, over $5500 dollars has been contributed to the museum fund by the dod. if you visit the museum, you'll see a large plaque on the founders' wall in the name of "denizens of doom, usenet, the world", complete with a dod pin. here's a letter from the ama to the dod regarding our contributions. ~newsgroups: rec.motorcycles ~from: arnie skurow <arnie@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ~subject: a letter from the motorcycle heritage museum ~date: mon, 13 apr 1992 11:04:58 gmt i received the following letter from jim rogers, director of the museum, the other day. "dear arnie and all members of the denizens of doom: congratulations and expressions of gratitude are in order for you and the denizens of doom! with your recent donation, the total amount donated is now $5,500. on behalf of the amhf, please extend my heartfeld gratitude to all the membership of the denizens. the club's new plaque is presently being prepared. of course, everyone is invited to come to the museum to see the plaque that will be installed in our founders foyer. by the way, i will personally mount a denizens club pin on the plaque. again, thank you for all your support, which means so much to the foundation, the museum, and the fulfillment of its goals. jim rogers, d.o.d. #0395 p.s. please post on your computer bulletin board." as you all know, even though the letter was addressed to me personally, it was meant for all of you who purchased dod goodies that made this amount possible. the rules, regulations, & bylaws of the denizens of doom motorcycle club from time to time there is some mention, discussion, or flame about the rules of the dod. in order to fan the flames, here is the complete text of the rules governing the dod. rule #1. there are no rules. rule #0. go ride. other rec.motorcycles information resources. there are several general rec.motorcycles resources that may or may not have anything to do with the dod. most are posted on a regular basis, but they can also be obtained from the cerritos ftp/e-mail server (see the info on the photo archive above). a general rec.motorcycles faq is maintained by dave williams. cerritos filenames are faqn.txt, where n is currently 1-5. the dod yellow pages, a listing of motorcycle industry vendor phone numbers & addresses, is maintained by bob pakser. cerritos filename is yellow_pages_vnn, where n is the rev. number. the list of the dod membership is maintained by the keeper of the list. cerritos filename is dod.list. this witdod faq (surprise, surprise!) is maintained by yours truly. cerritos filename is dod_faq.txt. additions, corrections, etc. for any of the above should be aimed at the keepers of the respective texts. (loki jorgenson loki@physics.mcgill.ca) has provided an archive site for motorcycle and accessory reviews, here's an excerpt from his periodic announcement. the rec.motorcycles.reviews archives (and world famous llama emporium) contains a veritable plethora (tm) of bike (and accessories) reviews, written by rec.moto readers based on their own experiences. these invaluable gems of opinion (highly valued for their potential to reduce noise on the list) can be accessed via anonymous ftp, email server or by personal request: anonymous ftp: ftp.physics.mcgill.ca (132.206.9.13) under ~ftp/pub/dod email archive server: rm-reviews@ftp.physics.mcgill.ca review submissions/questions: rm-reviews@physics.mcgill.ca note: there is a difference in the addresses for review submission and using the email archive server (ie. an "ftp."). to get started with the email server, send an email message with a line containing only "send help". note: if your return address appears like domain!subdomain!host!username in your mail header, include a line like (or something similar) path username@host.subdomain.domain if you are interested in submitting a review of a bike that you already own(ed), please do! there is a template of the format that the reviews are kept in (more or less) available at the archive site . for those who have internet access but are unsure of how anonymous ftp works, an example script is available on request. reviews of any motorcycle related accessory or widget are welcome too. updated stats & rec.motorcycles rides info some of the info cited above in various places tends to be a moving target. rather than trying to catch every occurence, i'm just sticking the latest info down here. estimated rec.motorcycles readership: 35k [news.groups] approximate dod membership: 975 [kotl] dod contributions to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum. over $5500 [arnie] organized (?) rides: summer 1992 saw more organized rides, with the joust in its third year, and the ride & feed going strong, but without the rollins pass trip due to the collapse of a tunnel. the east coast denizens got together for the right coast ride (rcr), with bikers from as far north as nh, and as far south as fl meeting in the blueridge mountains of north carolina. the pacific northwest crew organized the first great pacific northwest dryside gather (gpndg), another successful excuse for riding motorcycles, and seeing the faces behind the names we all have come to know so well. [thanks to ed green for the above addition.] also worth mentioning are: the first rec.moto.dirt ride, held in the moab/canyonlands area of southern utah. riders from 5 states showed up, riding everything from monster bmws to itty-bitty xrs to almost-legal 2-strokes. and though it's not an "official" (as if anything could be official with this crowd) rec.moto event, the vintage motorcycle races in steamboat springs, colorado always provides a good excuse for netters to gather. there's also been the occasional labor day gather in utah. european denizens have staged some gathers too. (your ad here, reasonable rates!) blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland 580 arapeen drive, slc, utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com bix: blaine_g@bix.com fj1200 half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted. dod#46 blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland 580 arapeen drive, slc, utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com bix: blaine_g@bix.com fj1200 half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted. dod#46 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103120">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103120" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 re: waving... i must say, that the courtesy of a nod or a wave as i meet other bikers while riding does a lot of good things to my mood... while riding is a lot of fun by itself, there's something really special about having someone say to you "hey, it's a great day for a ride... isn't it wonderful that we can spend some time on the road on days like this..." with a gesture. was sunny today for the first time in a week, took my bike out for a spin down to the local salvage yard/bike shop... ran into about 20 other people who were down there for similar reasons (there's this great stretch of road on the way down there... no side streets, lotsa leaning bends... ;) ... went on an impromptu coffee and bullshit run down to puyallup with a batch of people who i didn't know, but who were my kinda people nonetheless. as a fellow commented to me while i was admiring his bike... "hey, it's not what you ride, it's that you ride... as long as it has 2 wheels and an engine it's the same thing..." maven@eskimo.com (internet) maven@mavenry.altcit.eskimo.com (usenet) the maven@the mavenry (alternet) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103121">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103121" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling? couple hours after you "feel" sober? what? or should i just work with "if i drink tonight, i don't ride until tomorrow"? 1 hr/drink for the first 4 drinks. 1.5 hours/drink for the next 6 drinks. 2 hours/drink for the rest. these are fairly cautious guidelines, and will work even if you happen to have a low tolerance or body mass. i think the cops and "don't you dare drink & drive" (tm) commercials will usually say 1hr/drink in general, but after about 5 drinks and 5 hrs, you could very well be over the legal limit. watch yourself. / mike muise / mjmuise@1302.watstar.uwaterloo.ca \ no quotes, no jokes, \ electrical engineering, university of waterloo / no disclaimer, no fear. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103122">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103122" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 how _do_ the helmetless do it? um, the same way people do it on not as fast, and they would probably enjoy eating bugs, anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike, in the right terrain. and we eat flies, thank you. you're *supposed* to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down? snow skis no bugs, and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists. the question still stands. how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at 75 mph on buggy, summer evenings? helmetless != goggleless ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103124">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103124" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 two questions that fascinate me:- check you local blue light special for a sale on lives... 1) why are rednecks called rednecks? the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck, often obtained while performing honest work outdoors. the neck is specified to distinguish these people, whose shirt-protected chest and back are pale, from the elitist wealthy, who, in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time, overdo it and get full-body sunburns. more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding. "tuba" (irwin) "i honk therefore i am" computrac-richardson,tx irwin@cmptrc.lonestar.org dod #0826 (r75/6) that sounds like an awfully closed minded, intolerant attitude. 1/2 :') i'm not a redneck but . . . try a walk in their shoes first. stereotypes are usually of very limited value. i've seen as many ignorant self-righteous "open minded" new age lovers of the great planet earth as i have ignorant "red necks". i don't see a correlation. i don't believe that the "redneck" culture, if you can call it that, is necessarily inferior or superior to any other. i gotta have a beer, i'm making too much sense. next thing you know, i'll be preaching tolerance . . .. and i'm a conservative. jack waters ii dod#1919 ~ i don't fear the thief in the night. its the one that comes in the ~ ~ afternoon, when i'm still asleep, that i worry about. ~ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103126">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103126" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in <1993apr3.094509.11448@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> % by the way, the short-lived zephyr is essentially a gpz 550, why was the "zephyr" discontinued? i heard something about a problem with the name, but i never did hear anything certain... i don't think the 550 sold very well - most north americans who ride a standard rather than a sport bike usually want something bigger. people walk into the dealership, look at the 550 and the 750 and say, "i might as well spring the extra bucks for the bigger engine." bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103127">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103127" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (david svoboda) says: |wait a minute here, ed is noemi and satan? wow, and he seemed like such |a nice boy at rcr i too. and noemi makes me think of "cuddle", not "kotl". you talking bout the same noemi i know? she makes me think of big bore hand guns and extreme weirdness. this babe rode a csr300 across the desert! and a borrowed xl100 on the death ride. don't fuck with her man, your making a big go fast. take chances. mike s. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103130">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103130" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 would someone please post the countersteering faq...i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left...and i can't explain (well at least) why this happens...please help...post the faq...i need to convert him. hmm, if i did this, would i be able to take the outriggers off? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103131">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103131" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i haven't heard dr. demento in years. does anyone know if it plays on any stations around prov, ri (such as wbcn)? i'd love to pay for shipping and recording of the show too. the best boring-old-farts prefer the breeze, 97.9fm, salt lake city. wonderfully catatonic. i wanted to take the whole station back with me in my flight bag. (especially the girlie with the sexy voice who did the morning show.) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103132">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103132" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i only just prevented myself from diving in on this one..... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103134">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103134" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 {drinking & riding} what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling? couple hours after you "feel" sober? what? or should i just work with "if i drink tonight, i don't ride until tomorrow"? even a half a beer will increase your confidence while slugging your reactions and judgement - not much maybe, but its hard enough to stay alive out there for any length of time without stacking the odds. i'll not ride after any. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103137">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103137" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there is a new dod listing. to get a copy use one of these commands: finger motohead@cs.colorado.edu mail motohead@cs.colorado.edu if you send mail make sure your "from" line is correct (ie "man vacation"). i will not try at all to fix mail problems (unless they are mine ;-). and i may just publicly tell the world what a bad mailer you have. i do scan the mail to find bounces but i will not waste my time answering your questions or requests. for those of you that want to update your entry or get a # contact the kotl. only the kotl can make changes. so stop bothering me with inane mail i will not tell what "dod" is! ask rec.motorcycles. i do not give out the #'s. laszlo nemeth laszlo@cs.colorado.edu "hey - my tool works (yeah, you can quote me on that)." from elef@sun.com "flashbacks = free drugs." dod #0666 uid #1999 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103138">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103138" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 if good sam got 300 bricks, delivered first class postage to their door, at their expense, i bet they would change their policies about mailing lists or about who can use their facilities and if the lord god almighty parted the sky and make a personal appearance at their board of directors meeting, they would also change their policies. the odds are about equal. i am curious as to how many bricks i will have to send before this situatiion is cleared up to my satisfaction. i suspect about 5. we shall see. you'll be extremely lucky if you ever get one through. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103139">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103139" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> two years ago he went to work for conrail as a mechanic. |> on the emd and ge power units (train engines) they never |> ever change the oil, just the filters i remember seeing an artical on large-engine oil requirements, and one of the ways of prolonging the life of the oil was to run through a heated un-presurized chamber to allow water and volitiles to boil off. this made such long-term usage of oil practical. isn't the discovery channel great!?! curt howland "ace" dod#0663 eff#569 howland@nsipo.nasa.gov '82 v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards, for it makes them soggy and hard to re-light. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103140">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103140" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i saw a bike today and i want to know what it is. lets begin by saying that its whole rear end was definately hawk 650. additionally, it had a cbr900rr style tank, full fairing, and only a tach. now, at first i thought it was an 'rc31' (a hawk modified by two brothers racing), but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it. additionally, the gauges were certainly not from a hawk. they looked much more like 900rr gauges. overall, the bike looked like a 900rr except for the rear single-sided swingarm and wheel (there were straight from the hawk) so, what did i see? (ps, for any of you boulder doders, i saw it parked at the engineering center today. it is white with light green stripes.) nick coburn dod#6425 ama#679817 '88cbr1000 '89cbr600 coburnn@spot.colorado.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103141">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103141" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |wait a minute here, ed is noemi and satan? wow, and he seemed like such |a nice boy at rcr i too. and noemi makes me think of "cuddle", not "kotl". dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "we're bad-t-the-bone! 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | bad-t-the-bone!" 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | -- universally feared ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | denizen warcry. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103145">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103145" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> next thing you know i'll see bikes with geeky stickers parked |> outside the local white wine, quiche, and fern bar. hey! i like quiche, even if i did have to look at your note to spell it (assumed) correctly. really, you <*sniff*> tough guys are all the same... (mommy! curtis is making fun of ferns again!!!!) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103146">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103146" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling? couple hours after |> you "feel" sober? what? or should i just work with "if i drink tonight, i |> don't ride until tomorrow"? i'll put in a vote for the latter. a bike takes a lot of involvement, and i for one do not want any accident to be my fault. i remember one artical where the reviewer tried the radio on the bike, not having had one on any of his. he stated that the bike tended to go faster when the music was good. i agree, having felt like this my self, and this was not a physical imparement, like drinking, just the emotional lift from music. first rule of ecology: there is never only one side-effect. ride well- curt howland "ace" dod#0663 eff#569 howland@nsipo.nasa.gov '82 v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards, for it makes them soggy and hard to re-light. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103150">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103150" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i don't know about the dinky little zephyr's, but the 1100 (now the zr1100) looks alot like my '76 z1/ kz900! the one i drooled over at tri-sports in topsham, me was a looker! yes, mercury axed the zephyr name. guess a lot of aging republicans wanted a zephyr and confused the mercury with the kawasaki :). oh well, they're better off with the kawasaki anyways. maybe it'll shake the stick out of their asses and make libertarians out of them! as to the gpz <--> zephyr, the only gpz i've seen had the ball-buster gas tank profile, not the smooth saddle - to - gas tank transition. _motorcyclist_ claims the zephyr / zr is the modernized z1 (kz) from the jeff andle dod #3005 1976 kz900 ree700a@maine.maine.edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college. please reply via e-mail, since a followup might expire before i see the net again. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103152">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103152" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> while we're on the subject, has anyone else noticed that the 1/2" deep |> well in craftsman's $60 sae deep well set is too small to fit a 1/2" bolt or |> nut? when i took the socket in for an exchange, every !#%@ one of the 1/2" |> deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem!!! not to imply that you didn't, but since you didn't mention it..... did you measure the size of your test nut with callipers? were all three "cross lengths" no more than 1/2"? i've seen bolt heads, and even a few nuts, which got slightly thicker further down toward the basa... sort of a trapizodial cross section. that i did not do; however, the sample bolt i took to the store fit rather well in the following: 1/2" open end wrench, 1/2" box end wrench, 1/2" 12-point normal socket. i take that as meaning it's a 1/2" bolt head. but as several people have pointed out, and as i'm noting in the tool faq i'm writing up in case anyone will want it, a lifetime guarantee doesn't necessiarly mean better tools. yup. at $6 a socket, i want the @#$@# thing to fit! chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - pending delivery agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103155">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103155" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what is the flank drive everyones talking about? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103156">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103156" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 two questions that fascinate me:- check you local blue light special for a sale on lives... 1) why are rednecks called rednecks? the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck, often obtained while performing honest work outdoors. the neck is specified to distinguish these people, whose shirt-protected chest and back are pale, from the elitist wealthy, who, in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time, overdo it and get full-body sunburns. more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding. "tuba" (irwin) "i honk therefore i am" computrac-richardson,tx irwin@cmptrc.lonestar.org dod #0826 (r75/6) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103157">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103157" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've got orders for about 30-35 hats. the expensive part (not surprisingly) is going to be having the patches made, with a setup fee of $100-200 or so. dean, there's an old engineering saying concerning inventions and wheels. contact #0099, he's done several runs of patches, and there is some patch-making company out there with the artwork already set up and paid for. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103158">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103158" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 anyone try the spray on chain wax that was reviewed in one of the moto rags last month? yeah. i sprayed it all over my rear drive shaft housing, and it didn't seem to make it any quieter at all <!!> didn't you read the instructions first?? you're supposed to spray it in your ears so you won't be distracted by the chain-noise of the *other* bikes around you. that's why it's called "chain *wax*". chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com car377@cbnewsj.att.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103162">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103162" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |>castrol syntec does not contain teflon, it gets its greater |>lubrication by bonding to the metal surfaces of the engine, |>thus making the metal ride on the polymer rather |>than having metal-to-metal contact. i do not know if this |>also reduces the acid contact with the metal, but it seems |>likely. |just becase something forms a resin does not mean that |it's not teflon based. the ptfe in slick-50 is not teflon |either, but it's still teflon based. "teflon" is a dupont-owned tradename for ptfe. slick-50 does indeed use dupont teflon, though some other brands of such stuff may use imported ptfe of another brand. "teflon", being a trade-name, should always by capitalized. (dupont disclaims any benefits of ptfe in the oil supply of internal combustion engines, btw.) dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "we're bad-t-the-bone! 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | bad-t-the-bone!" 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | -- universally feared ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | denizen warcry. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103163">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103163" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 would someone please post the countersteering faq...i am having this awful ummm, if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left, methinks your bike has a problem. when i do it really!? methinks somethings wrong with _your_ bike. perhaps you meant _pull_? pushing the right side of my handlebars _will_ send me left. it should. on my bike, i turn right. no wonder you need that faq. if i had it i'd send it. i'm sure others will take up the slack... andy infante | i sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis | oh, lord. this is where i came in. obcountersteer: for some reason, i've discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars (rather than pushing on the other wrong side, if you get my meaning) provides a feeling of greater control. for example, rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right (hi, lonny!), pulling on the left side at least until i get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter-intuitive. maybe i need psychological help. obcountersteer v2.0:anyone else find it ironic that in the weekend-and-a- night msf class, they don't mention countersteering until after the first day of riding? tommy mcguire, who's going to hit his head on door frames the rest of the evening, leaning into those tight turns.... mcguire@cs.utexas.edu mcguire@austin.ibm.com "...i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information, identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm...." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103164">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103164" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> alan, nothing personal, but i object to the "we all" in that statement. |> (i was on many of those rides that alan is describing.) pushing the |> envelope does not necessarily equal taking insane chances. moreover, if two riders are riding together at the same speed, one might be riding well beyond his abilities and the other may have a safety margin left. oh come on phil. you're an excellent rider, but you still take plenty of chances. don't tell me that it's just your skill that keeps you from getting wacked. there's a lot of luck thrown in there too. you're a very good rider and a very lucky one too. hope your luck holds.... allan, i know the circumstances of several of your falls. on the ride when you fell while i was next behind you, you made an error of judgement by riding too fast when you knew the road was damp, and you reacted badly when you were surprised by an oncoming car. that crash was due to factors that were subject to your control. i won't deny that there's a combination of luck and skill involved for each of us, but it seems that you're blaming bad luck for more of your own pain than is warranted. chuck karish karish@mindcraft.com (415) 323-9000 x117 karish@pangea.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103165">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103165" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 i am looking for advice on what bikes i should check out. i am 6'4" tall, and find my legs/hips uncomfortably bent on most of the bikes i have ridden (not many admittedly). are there any bikes out there built for a taller rider? there's plenty of legroom on the kawasaki klr650. a bit short in the braking department for spirited street riding, but enough for dirt and for less-agressive street stuff. chuck karish karish@mindcraft.com (415) 323-9000 x117 karish@pangea.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103169">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103169" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 |> >>would someone please post the countersteering faq...i am having this awful |> >>time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle |> >>foward when i am turning left...and i can't explain (well at least) why this |> >>happens...please help...post the faq...i need to convert him. |> > ummm, if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and |> >your bike turns left, methinks your bike has a problem. when i do it |> pushing the right side of my handlebars _will_ send me left. |> i'm sure others will take up the slack... oh yes, i'm quite sure they will :) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103170">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103170" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [...] i had planned to get an hd this year...but instead i took delivery on a brand new male offspring(er) last monday... sounds like you should have been doing your planning last year, given harley-davidson's product delivery lag and the human gestation cycle. or perhaps any planning at all. :-) hiya pete, still got that cbx? nice to hear from you again! and, yes, i finally did figure out why this happens, and i have taken steps to ensure [a storkish repetition]... that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj, so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences? ouch. :-) this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study. because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy, hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the, er, step function provided when the rider's body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn't. i think it's really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr900rr and the gts1000a. chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com car377@cbnewsj.att.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103172">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103172" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i propose that the official dod newbie bike of choice (tm) be the zx-11 d. =8^/ nothing like giving newbies a land rocket to practice on. it offers enough power so that a novice rider can safely accelerate out of harms way in situations where a more experienced rider would use complex avoidance yup. accelerate right into the back of an 18-wheel truck. um. how's the easiest way to get newbies of the road? :) regards, ted. university of toronto computer engineering '89 fzr600: i'm taking a ride with my best friend. dod#:886699 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103175">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103175" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yo, assholes. i hope you are all just kidding because it's exactly that kind of attidue that gets many a motorcyclist killed: "look at the leather clad poseurs! watch how they swirve and swear as i pretend that they don't exist while i change lanes." if you really find it necesary to wreck others enjoyment of the road to boost your ego, then it is truely you who are the poseur. --aaron disgruntled volvo drivers. what are they rebelling against? steatopygias's 'r' us. doh#0000000005 that ain't no hottentot. sesquipedalian's 'r' us. zx-10. ama#669373 dod#564. there ain't no more. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103177">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103177" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 writes:>|> |> ... i sprained my right ankle once and kept riding, ... when i broke my right leg in two places ... i had knee surgery while i was in the navy back in 77. the doctors put me in a cast from ass-to-ankle. my only method of transportaion was a dohc 450 honda at the time. i found that by sliding back on the seat i could use my heel (did i mention it was my left leg?) to operate the shift. i would hook the end of the lever with my heel and lift my entire leg for up- shifts and just drop my leg on the lever for the down-shifts. forget nutral, took way too much finesse for the leg! the crutches were bungee- corded to the right side of the bike with the "top" resting on the passenger peg and the right turnsignal sticking through the "hole" in the crutches. every other day when i rode the 10 miles to physical therapy (tourture sessions) the doc would give me hell about riding a bike much less riding in my condition. didn't stop me tho! b-p btw. this is the same bike i assembled in my second floor barracks room and rode down the stairs when it was completed! --------======= i am not paid to have an opinion! =======-------- dr. speed suzuki gs850g dod #8177 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103178">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103178" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> > fight your ticket : california edition by david brown 1st ed. |> > berkeley, ca : nolo press, 1982 |> >the second edition is out (but not in ucb's library). good luck; let |> >us know how it goes. |> can you beat this ticket? personally, i think it's your duty as a citizen |> to make it as much trouble as possible for them, so maybe they'll give up |> and leave us alone someday soon. |> the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing |> your speed. mr. brown (the author of fight your ticket) mentions an |> oakland judge who convicted a speeder "on the officer's testimony that |> the driver's car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed." *cough* *choke* what?!? if a cop gave me a ticket for "sounding" like i was speeding i'd probably show up in court without a lawyer simply because "sounding" like speeding is ridiculous. if i was found guilty i'd appeal and then show up with a lawyer. if a cop doesn't do one of: vascar (from car or plane) radar, lidar, other electronic speed measuring device pace me and i'm within 15mph or so of the limit i'd go to court. i can accept a cop "seeing" me going excessively fast (like 25+ over the limit) but "he looked like he was going 70 or so in a 55 zone" is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". granted i may well lose the case but 70 in a 55 measured by eye??? take it to court for sure. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103179">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103179" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 question for the day: what protective gear is the most important? i've got a good helmet (shoei rf200) and a good, thick jacket (leather gold) and a pair of really cheap leather gloves... what should my next purchase be? better gloves, boots, leather pants, what? what's your favorite body part? :-) blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103182">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103182" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what's the feeling about eating and riding? i went out riding this weekend, and got a little carried away with some pecan pie. the whole ride back i felt sluggish. i was certainly much more alert on the ride in. i'm sure others have the same feeling, but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides. from now on, a little snack will do. i'd much rather have a get that full/sluggish feeling closer to home. paul nakada | oracle corporation | pnakada@oracle.com dod #7773 | '91 r100c | '90 k75s 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103185">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103185" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 greetings: can someone steer me towards sources of information on vehicle data logging systems? in particular, i would like to build/buy (or a little of both) a system that is small enough to fit on a motorcycle and will take input from various sensors (pressure, lvdt's, acceleration, rpm, o2 sensor...), digitize and record it for later analysis. please email me any info. if i get anything interesting, i'll compile it and get it on the net. thanks. marty capadona marty@carter.ca.boeing.com seattle, wa 82 gpz750, 82 gs1100, 88 hawk gt, 90 gs500 ama, msf, wmrra, omrra... forget what i said. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103190">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103190" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as summer approaches, the usual preparations are being made... me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests. for that i was planning to get a backpack/rucksack. the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike, given the metal frame and all. i have a big backrest (approx 12" high) and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest. any one have any experiences on such experimentation? taking the idea further, what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load (40lbs). is the load distribution going to be very severly affected? how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest. if i really secure it, with no shifting, do i still increase my chances of surfing? collective r.m. wisdom requested. p.s. i really can't afford leather pants. boots and jeans are all i can make do with. what you think of the knee protectors which rollerbladers use - the one l.l.bean and like sells. is that a bad idea (tm). are there any equivalents? '81 cb650 dod #1224 i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103193">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103193" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }i think the cops and "don't you dare drink & drive" (tm) commercials will }usually say 1hr/drink in general, but after about 5 drinks and 5 hrs, you }could very well be over the legal limit. }watch yourself. indeed, especially if you are "smart" and eat some food with your drink. the food coating the stomach lining (especially things like milk) can temporarily retard the absorption of alcohol. when the food is digested, the absorption will proceed, and you will actually be drunker (i.e., have a higher instantaneous bac) than you would have been if you had drunk 1 drink/hr. on an empty stomach. put another way, food can cause you to be less drunk than drinking on an empty stomach early on in those five hours, but more drunk than drinking on an empty stomach later in those five hours. curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson again, from my alcohol server's class: the absolute *most* that eating before drinking can do is slow the absorption down by 15 minutes. that gives me time to eat, slam one beer, and ride like hell to try to make it home in the 10 minutes left after paying, donning helmet & gloves, starting bike... dean woodward | "you want to step into my world? dean@fringe.rain.com | it's a socio-psychotic state of bliss..." '82 virago 920 | -guns'n'roses, 'my world' dod # 0866 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103195">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103195" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as summer approaches, the usual preparations are being made... me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests. for that i was planning to get a backpack/rucksack. the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike, given the metal frame and all. i have a big backrest (approx 12" high) and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest. any one have any experiences on such experimentation? taking the idea further, what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load (40lbs). is the load distribution going to be very severly affected? how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest. if i really secure it, with no shifting, do i still increase my chances of surfing? i ride my bike regularly to classes with my book bag. i take the shoulder straps on the bag, and hook them around the rear turn signals. i works fine. you probably will want to attach it with a bungee cord to keep it from shifting to one side or another. | dan ramage |ramage@charlie.ece.scarolina.edu | |'86 vulcan 750 |dod#0798 | |"i wanted a harley, but i haven't won the lottery yet." | |"them bats is smart, they use radar." -d. letterman | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103197">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103197" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 jlevine@rd.hydro.on.ca (jody levine) writes... sampled recently were using unauthorized software, the inspector general said in a new report. the inspector general? make way, for his excellency, the inspector general! (...hail, hail to brodney, to the sky...) behold the lord high executioner... no, that's something else. i've already discussed this in e-mail with jonathan. it's the film "the inspector general" [:-)], with danny kaye, although i can't quote the name of the leading lady (because maltin doesn't :-(). jonathan thinks there was an earlier russian film; "movies on tv" just says it was based on a gogol (yes, jonathan, i looked it up again -- only two o's) story. ivan reid, paul scherrer institute, ch. ivan@cvax.psi.ch gsx600f, rg250wd. si=2.66 "you porsche. me pass!" dod #484 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103200">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103200" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> : riding to work last week via hwy 12 from suisun, to i-80, i was pulled over by |> : a chp black and white by the 76 gas station by jameson canyon road. the |> : officer stated "...it <looked> like you were going kinda fast coming down |> : highway 12. you <must have> been going at least 70 or 75." i just said okay, |> : and did not agree or disagree to anything he said. 1) the next time you get stoped by a cop, never never never admit to anything. 2) don't volunteer any information. 3) when a retoracle question is ask by the cop, like "...it <looked> like you were going kinda fast coming down highway 12. you <must have> been going at least 70 or 75?" -- the correct reponse is to deny it. this technique is employed by police to help establish guilt, especially when (9 times out of 10) he/she is not sure who was doing the speeding. if the cop is unsure this may be the difference of him letting you off the hook or getting the tissue. hope this helps for next time. steven bakalis 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103201">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103201" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }first i thought it was an 'rc31' (a hawk modified by two brothers racing), }but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it. additionally, i think i've seen this bike. is it all white, with a sea-green stripe and just 'honda' for decals, i've seen such a bike numerous times over by sewall hall at cu, and i thought it was a race-prepped cbr. i didn't see it over at the ec parking lot (i buzzed over there on my way home, all of 1/2 block off my route!) but it was gone. is a single sided swingarm available for the cbr? i would imagine so, kinda neccisary for quick tire changes. when i first saw it, i assumed it was a bike repainted to cover crash damage. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103202">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103202" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 : the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike, given : the metal frame and all. i have a big backrest (approx 12" high) and : was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest. : any one have any experiences on such experimentation? put the pack on the pillion and bungee it to the backrest. if that is not possible then you should be able to bungee it behind the backrest, just make sure it doesn't bend or break anything like the rear fender or turnsignals. * bill ranck ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu * * "cars making a sudden u-turn are the most dangerous. they may cut you off * * entirely, blocking the whole roadway and leaving you no place to go." * * pg. 21, msf motorcycle operator manual, sixth rev. 1991 * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103206">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103206" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 while we're on the subject, has anyone else noticed that the 1/2" deep well in craftsman's $60 sae deep well set is too small to fit a 1/2" bolt or when i took the socket in for an exchange, every !#%@ one of the 1/2" deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem!!! looking into the socket, it appears that craftsman's toolmaker attempted to imitate flank drive on this piece, but did not account for the extra clearance needed inside the never had any problem with mine... are you *sure* the nut/bolt you are trying is really a 1/2" hex? 13mm is just slightly larger... and a 1/2 wrench won't fit on a gm 13mm nut (my 91 gmc pickup has several 13mm nuts on it... really annoying, metric threads too. seems that most of the body is metric, most of the engine is sae). --=< jonathan lusky ----- lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu >=-- \ 89 jeep wrangler - 258/for sale! / \ 79 rx-7 - 12a/holley 4bbl / \________67 camaro rs - 350/4spd________/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103207">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103207" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what a great day! got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado, and put the battery back in the fxstc. cleaned the plugs, opened up the petcock, waited a minute, hit the starter, and bingo it started up like a charm! spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison, and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done. now my bike is stock (so far) except for hd slash-cut pipes, and therein lies the rub. the hd slash cut, or baloney cuts as some call them, are not stock mufflers. they're sold for "off-road use only," and are much louder than stock mufflers. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103208">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103208" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this morning a truck that had been within my sight (and i within his) for about 3 miles suddenly forgot that i existed and pulled over right on me -- my front wheel was about even with the back edge of his front passenger door as i was accelerating past him. it was trivial enough for me to tap the brakes and slide behind him as he slewed over (with no signal, of course) on top of me, with my little horn blaring (damn, i need fiamms!), but the satisfaction of being aware of my surroundings and thus surviving was not enough, especially when i later pulled up alongside the bastard and he made no apologetic wave or anything. is there some way that i can memorize the license plate of an offending vehicle and get the name and address of the owner? i'm not going to firebomb houses or anything, i'd just like to write a consciousness-raising letter or two. i think that it would be good for bdi cagers to know that we know where they live. maybe they'd use 4 or 5 brain cells while driving instead of the usual 3. curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george" "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103209">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103209" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hey! it works. you could present the paragraph above to virtually any member of the non-motorcycling public and they'll buy right into it. just about any argument you can produce in favor of banning helmetless riding can be used to argue in favor of banning motorcycles. it's just a matter of degree. that's absurd! that statement must therefore say that any argument in favor of seatbelts or airbags is an argument against automobiles. any argument for lifeguards is an argument against swimming. it says that any agrgument in favor of safety precautions is an argument for banning the activity to which the precautions apply. extrapolating to that degree is ridiculous, there wouldn't be any normal human activity left to do; therefore it is a non-seqitur. also, even though most people do not ride motorcycles, they do boat, sail, jetski, climb, ski, fly parachute, hang-glide, glide, bungee-jump, bike, skate, rollerblade, skateboard, play rugby (ouch), mow the lawn, rewire the basement, operate heavy machinery, and do a host of other 'dangerous' things that would all be as valid as motorcycling as activities to ban. your little homily applies to all those things, and the general public buying into banning motorcycles without realizing that their activity would be next is unlikely. | terry cunningham terry@rsi.prc.com | "donuts! is there anything they | | dod# 541 diviner of dreams | can't do? " homer | | hifi# 2 | | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103210">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103210" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }start her up and rev to about 3000 rpm....i fail cuz i register 120 db, }and the max allowed is 110! if i fail with these pipes, there are gonna next time make the numbers more believable -- this is poor flamebait. 120 db is getting close to the sound of a jumbo jet engine at takeoff revs from some small number of yards away. it is certainly right around the pain threshold for humans. no way in hell the state permits 110 db if they have any standard at all. curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george" "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103211">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103211" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 by the way bob, er dave (sorry!), i had read a review that said the 550 engine was pretty much identical to the gpz, but that the suspension and frame is more modern. the fancy piggyback shocks on the 550 (and the 750, i think. i don't know about the zr1100) are very nice, 3-way adjustability. the forks are crappy, they dive like mad. i had progressive springs installed and it made a huge difference. cheap fix, much improvement. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103212">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103212" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [put pistons in bores first then lower onto bottom end deleted] has anybody actually carried out this procedure? i can visualize fewer problems with canting pistons in the cylinders with this method, but more trouble with keeping the bores suspended (especially for the first two pistons) and with working space to insert piston pins and clips (especially for the last two pistons). it is certainly possible, and quite easy in most cases, especially on two-strokes. it's very common to do this on bikes where the cylinder-mounting through-studs don't prevent the cylinder from being removed with the engine in the frame. i did this when i assembled the top end on my indian, which was easier yet because it does not have through-studs. base flange studs, and separate head bolts, dontchaknow. you have to use a little foresight, rags, duct tape, etc. to keep clips from falling in, clothespins, hoseclamps, etc. to support the cylinder while you're inserting the pins. (are these called gudgeon pins in the uk? if so, what's a gudgeon?) | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103214">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103214" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ][bozo posts gifs to rec.moto] ]>he and his postmaster are also gonna get 500 copies of the post in their ]>mailboxes. ] hey, it's a great picture. you can't fault his taste, only his ]technique. chill out and educate instead of getting your panties in a ]bunch. ditto to you dave. i'm using the picture as the bacground on my sun, and i haven't sent a single message to the guy. looks like you get to keep the joe senner -- joe@rider.cactus.org austin, tx warning: do not look into laser with remaining eye. -- posted in a radioactive isotope research lab (from r.h.f) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103215">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103215" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 {drinking & riding} it depends on how badly you want to live. the faa says "eight hours, bottle to throttle" for pilots but recommends twenty-four hours. the fars specify a blood/alcohol level of 0.4 as legally drunk, i think, which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums. 0.20 is dwi in new york? here the limit is 0.08 ! bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103217">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103217" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what a great day! got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado, and put the battery back in the fxstc. cleaned the plugs, opened up the petcock, waited a minute, hit the starter, and bingo it started up like a charm! spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison, and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done. now my bike is stock (so far) except for hd slash-cut pipes, and all went well with my new hampshire state inspection (meaning all my lights worked ok) until the dude produces a decibel meter and tells me about the new nh law about mc noise.....huh? sez i....and he has me start her up and rev to about 3000 rpm....i fail cuz i register 120 db, and the max allowed is 110! if i fail with these pipes, there are gonna be a whole lotta seriously pissed off bikers round here when they go for inspection. but hey, its a new experience! i have never really felt like a menace to society before! i parked, dismounted and walked in to my building with a slight swagger to my step, and a narrow lidded look... i sensed my faculty colleagues unease with my new intimidating status...and women's glances seemed to linger just a little longer....or perhaps that was my imagination.......*sigh* now i need to install my new bub pipes and single fire ignition....i wonder how i will do after that!? russ hughes '92 fxstc dod# 6022(10e20) "love ...yeah, that's the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle." --sonny barger (as told to me by ed campbell, who has an old friend who was there at the time) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles103220">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103220" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 fight your ticket : california edition by david brown 1st ed. berkeley, ca : nolo press, 1982 the second edition is out (but not in ucb's library). good luck; let us know how it goes. the fourth edition is out, too. but it's probably also not very high on ucb's "gotta have that" list. riding to work last week via hwy 12 from suisun, to i-80, i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the 76 gas station by jameson canyon road. the officer stated "...it <looked> like you were going kinda fast coming down highway 12. you <must have> been going at least 70 or 75." i just said okay, and did not agree or disagree to anything he said. can you beat this ticket? personally, i think it's your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them, so maybe they'll give up and leave us alone someday soon. right on, it is every citizen's right and duty to force government (anecdotes deleted) i've never tried proving the cop was mistaken. i did get to see some other poor biker try it. he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of a (cop) car, and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him, and end up demonstrating that he couldn't possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested. he'd brought diagrams and a calculator. he was prepared. he lost. keep in mind cops do this all the time, and their word is better than yours. also keep in mind that cops will lie in court to get their way! (don't get me started by asking how i know ;) if you decide to fight you have to be ready for this as well as devise strategy to make the cop's story doubtful in the judge/jury's mind. maybe, though, they don't guess how fast bikes are going all the time. besides, this guy didn't speak english very well, and ended up absolutely confounding the judge, the cop, and everyone else in the room who'd been recently criminalized by some twit with a gun and a quota. ahem. ok, i'm better now. maybe he'd have won had his presentation been more polished. maybe not. he did get applause. |_____| ed mcfarland ewm@mvuzr.att.com (_) /| us marshalls #9 (corner marshals) /| |/ the best seat in the house to watch |_| motorcycle roadracing! / \ no passing on waving yellow 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103221">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103221" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ai598@cleveland.freenet.edu (mike sturdevant) writes... when i got my knee rebuilt i got back on the street bike asap. i put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back a long way. just make sure they're tied down tight in front and no problemo. hmm, sounds like a useful trick -- it'd keep the local cagers at least a crutch-length off my tail-light, which is more than they give me now. but do i have to break a leg to use it? (when i broke my ankle dirt-biking, i ended up strapping the crutches to the back of the bike & riding to the lab. it was my right ankle, but the bike was a gt380 and started easily by hand.) ivan reid, paul scherrer institute, ch. ivan@cvax.psi.ch gsx600f, rg250wd. "beware drainage ditches on firetrails" dod #484 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103223">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103223" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 one thing is certain, though, its still too cold. after about 40 minutes, i had to stop and hold my muffler for a while. be very careful about this. if youre really cold the muffler will feel fine till you leave all the charred skin on it when you peel your hands off - i speak from experience. you can also do all kindsa (americanism of the day) damage to your circulation warming hands up on something too hot. by far the best (fastest and safest) way to do it is to shove the hands up the opposit sleeves and stand there like a ming emporer for a while. five minutes should do it. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103225">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103225" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 every spec of alertness to keep from getting squished, otherwise it's not only dangerous, it's unpleasant. the same goes for cold and fatigue, as i once took a half hour nap at a gas station to insure that i would make it yeah, hypothermia is much more detrimemtal to your judgement and reactions than people realise. i wish i had the patience to stop when i should. one day i'll pay for it.... if you begin to shiver - stop and warm up thoroughly. if you leave it till the shivering stops, this doesnt mean you're ok again, it means you're a danger to yourself and everyone else on the road - your brain and body are working about as fast as a tree grows. you will not realise this yourself till you hit something. the next stage is passing out. this usually means falling off. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103228">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103228" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, howp@skyfox () says: i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo. i'm considering buying a used 1982 seca turbo for $1300 canadian (~$1000 us) with 30,000 km on the odo. this will be my first bike. any comments? because of this i cannot in good faith recommend a seca turbo. power delivery is too uneven for a novice. the official (tm) dod newbie bike of choice would be more appropriate because the powerband is so wide and delivery is very smooth. perfect for the beginner. dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103229">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103229" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i feel childish. how _do_ the helmetless do it? um, the same way people do it on not as fast, and they would probably enjoy eating bugs, anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike, in the right terrain. and we eat flies, thank you. who mentioned dirtbikes? we're talking highway speeds here. if you go 70mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute. you're *supposed* to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down? because it wouldn't be a jeep if it didn't. a friend of mine just bought one and it has more warning stickers than those little 4-wheelers (i guess that's becuase it's a big 4 wheeler). anyway, it's written in about ten places that the windshield should remain up at all times, and it looks like they've made it a pain to put it down anyway, from what he says. to be fair, i do admit that it would be a similar matter to drive a windscreenless jeep on the highway as for bikers. they may participate in this discussion, but they're probably few and far between, so i maintain that this topic is of interest primarily to bikers. snow skis no bugs, and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists. notice how ed picked on the more insignificant (the lower case part) of the two parts of the statement. besides, around here it is quite rare to see bikers wear goggles on the street. it's either full face with shield, or open face with either nothing or aviator sunglasses. my experience of bicycling with contact lenses and sunglasses says that non-wraparound sunglasses do almost nothing to keep the crap out of ones eyes. the question still stands. how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at 75 mph on buggy, summer evenings? helmetless != goggleless ok, ok, fine, whatever you say, but lets make some attmept to stick to the point. i've been out on the road where i had to stop every half hour to clean my shield there were so many bugs (and my jacket would be a blood-splattered mess) and i'd see guys with shorty helmets, no goggles, long beards and tight t-shirts merrily cruising along on bikes with no windscreens. lets be really specific this time, so that even ed understands. does anbody think that splattering bugs with one's face is fun, or are there other reasons to do it? image? laziness? to make a point about freedom of bug splattering? i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103230">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103230" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 1 hr/drink for the first 4 drinks. 1.5 hours/drink for the next 6 drinks. 2 hours/drink for the rest. in my case it goes down after the first four, because the fifth one usually makes me throw up the last two. needless to say, i don't drink very much anymore, as the last time that happened was in the second year of my undergrad. i was a silly .edu breath, and pretty bad breath at that. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103232">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103232" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 my old jacket is about to bite the dust so i'm in the market for a new riding jacket. i'm looking for recommendations for a suitable replacement. i would like to buy a full aerostich suit but i can't afford $700 for it right now. i'm considering two basic options: 1) buy the aerostich jacket only. dunno how much it costs due to recent price increases, but i'd imagine over $400. that may be pushing my limit. advantages include the fact that i can later add the pants, and that it nearly eliminates the need for the jacket portion of a rainsuit. 2) buy some kind of leather jacket. i like a few of the new hein-gericke firstgear line, however they may be a bit pricey unless i can work some sort of deal. advantages of leather are potentially slightly better protection, enhanced pose value (we all know how important that is :-), possibly cheaper than upper aerostich. requirements for a jacket are that it must fit over a few other layers (mainly a sizing thing), if leather i'd prefer a zip-out lining, it must have some body armor similar to aerostich (elbows, shoulders, forearms, possibly back/kidney protection, etc.), a reasonable amount of pocket space would be nice, ventilation would be a plus, however it must be wearable in cold weather (below freezing) with layers or perhaps electrics. please fire away with suggestions, comments, etc... steve andersen dod #0239 andersen@me.udel.edu (302) 832-0136 andersen@zr1.ccm.udel.edu 1992 ducati 907 i.e. 1987 yamaha srx250 "life is simply a consequence of the complexities of carbon chemistry..." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103234">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103234" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 every bit as fast as a dirtbike, in the right terrain. and we eat flies, thank you. who mentioned dirtbikes? we're talking highway speeds here. if you go 70mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute. obviously never rode a good 250 or open-class bike! --------======= i am not paid to have an opinion! =======-------- dr. speed suzuki gs850g dod #8177 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103235">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103235" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hi, i just have a small question about my bike. being a fairly experienced bmw and mz-mechanic, i just don't know what to think about my honda. she was using too much oil for the last 5000 km (on my trip to daytona bike week this spring), and all of a sudden, she trailed smoke like hell and was running only on one cylinder. i towed the bike home and took it apart, but everything looks in perfect working order. no cracks in the heads or pistons, the cylinder walls look very clean, and the wear of pistons and cylinders is not measurable. all still within factory specs. the only thing i could find, however, was a slightly bigger ring gap on the right cylinder (the one with the problem), but it is still way below the wear-limit given in the clymer-manual for this bike. any syggestions??? what else could cause my problem??? do i have to hone the cylinder walls (make them a little rougher in a criss-cross-pattern) in order to get better breaking in of my new rings??? won't that increase the wear of my pistons?? please send comments to sruhl@mechanical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca thanks in advance. stef. stefan ruhl german exchange student. don't poke into my privacy ! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103237">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103237" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 for sale 1986 harley flhtc liberty edition. good condition. many extras. asking $7500. located in rhode island. peter levine plevine@ele.uri.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103238">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103238" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is a |real dog when he pillions his 120lb wife. all that money for a dog that |doesn't defecate much. =:-] but, think of the *mystique* you are buying into for that extra $7k or more!!! randy davis email: randy@megatek.com zx-11 #00072 pilot {uunet!ucsd}!megatek!randy dod #0013 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103240">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103240" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 for sale: model : husqvarna 510 te (enduro model) year : 1988 engine : 500 cc four stroke extras : - 1992 ignition (for easy starting) - suspension by aftershock - custom carbon fiber/kevlar skid plate - quick steering geometry - stock (epa legal and quiet) exhaust system - bark busters and hand guards - motion pro clutch cable price : $2200 contact: denis concordel e-mail: denis@apldbio.com mabell: (415) 570 6667 (work) (415) 494 7109 (home) i am selling my trusty husky... hopefully to buy a husaberg... this is a very good dirt bike and has been maintained perfectly. i never had any problems with it. it's a four stroke, 4 valves, liquid cooled engine. it is heavier than a 250 2 stroke but still lighter than a honda xr600 and has a lot better suspension (ohlins shock, husky fork) than the xr. for the casual or non competitive rider, the engine is much better than any two stroke. you can easily lug up hills and blast through trails with minimum gear the 1992 ignition and the carefully tuned carburation makes this bike very easy to start (starts of first kick when cold or hot). there is a custom made carbon/kevlar (light 1 pound) wrap around skid plate to protect the engine cases and the water pump. the steering angle has been reduced by 2 degree to increase steering quickness. this with the suspension tune-up by phil douglas of aftershock (multiple time isde rider) gives it a better ride than most bike: plush suspension, responsive steering with no head shake. so if it is such a good bike why sell it???? gee, i want to buy a husaberg, which just a husky but 25 pounds lighter... and a tad more $$$. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles103893">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles103893" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i tend to keep my bedroom window open during the winter and have woken up to find frost on my bedspread, but i still get cold below about 30f. usually on the part that sticks out of the bottom of my helmet. maybe it's time to get a noj quiet rider. cool - i conjure up this image of bd in doonesbury...so dean, how long have you been sleeping with your helmet on?? rich bemben - dod #0044 rbemben@timewarp.prime.com 1977 750 triumph bonneville (617) 275-1800 x 4173 "fear not the evil men do in the name of evil, but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104159">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104159" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 last year, i believe it was, jeff deeney posted what i've since come to recognize as the ultimate april fools posting ever. it wasn't particularly nice of him, as several people were quite fooled and very worried about him, but i can't fault the effectiveness. based on numerous inputs (most of them unprintable), i deemed it time for a kinder, gentler, april 1. not that i didn't have something really sick and twisted ready to post :-) perhaps next year. personally, i think jeffy-poo was still smarting more from the third degree burns he suffered after april 1st last year rather than the supposed burns that he suffered in "the joke". granted i was one of those people that were taken in by it and i was certainly concerned...and then pissed at him for pulling such a thing (which i made known to him). but then again, for an april fool "joke" i would also go on record as saying that it was the best orchestrated one i've ever seen and it certainly sucked a lot of people into believing it 8-( 8-| 8-\ 8-)... "sick" - "twisted"??? who in this group could ever be accused of such a thing? i tip my twisted lid to thee jeffy 8-). rich bemben - dod #0044 rbemben@timewarp.prime.com 1977 750 triumph bonneville (617) 275-1800 x 4173 "fear not the evil men do in the name of evil, but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104286">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104286" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike. my dog would love it if i could ever make it work. !!! post of the month !!! actually, i've seen riders carting around a pet dog in a sidecar.... a great dane on the back though; sounds a bit hairy to me. yeah, i'm sure that our lab would love a ride (he's the type that sticks his head out car windows) but i didn't think that he would enjoy being bungee- corded to the gas tank, and 65 lbs or squirming beast is a bit much for a backpack (ok who's done it....). i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104288">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104288" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 don't you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine? the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound. moisten a rag, apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent, previously transparent, material. after a few minutes of working on the plastic face, the dial, or plastic face will be clear once more. will not work for glass. a couple of other tips. 1) make a habit of parking the bike so that instruments are facing away from the sun. 2) meguiar's mirror glaze plastic polish & plastic cleaner. (cue canned product plug #2543): ok, for a novice question, is there anything that will clean a face-shield and also remove abrasions so that one can see through it what you want are meguiar's mirror glaze plastic polish and plastic cleaner. they are very mild abrasives meant to remove scratches from plastic. for fine scratches just use the polish, for bigger ones start with the cleaner and finish with the polish. the stuff is $5-8 bucks per bottle at most auto or motorcycle parts stores. don't choke over the price too much, since both bottles will probably last you 10 years. the stuff works great on plastic watch "crystals" and compact discs too. blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104290">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104290" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 my mechanic once commented that the 'dual range' transmission was pure junk. one mans opinion... i had a friend in pittsburgh who had a cb1000c with the dual-range tranny on it. he usually only used the "economy" range to get an overdrive sixth gear out of it. he had 59000 miles on it when it was stolen. it was recovered shortly after that, repaired, and, for all i know, it's still going the cb1000c was a shaft-driven overbore version of the cb900 and was made for exactly one year (yep, head and base gaskets are very expensive). helluva bike. a data point, chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104292">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104292" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once. i was going to work on a |> yamaha |> 750 twin (a.k.a. "the vibrating tank") when i heard a wierd noise off |> to my |> left. i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot |> and |> jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the |> left |> side. when i went to put my foot back on the peg, i found that it |> was not |> there! i pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that i |> had been |> hit by a wire-wheel type hubcap from a large cage! this hubcap |> weighed |> about 4-5 pounds! the impact had bent the left peg flat against the |> frame |> and tweeked the shifter in the process. had i not heard the |> approaching |> cap, i feel certian that i would be sans a portion of my left foot. |> anyone else had this sort of experience? not with a hub cap but one of those "lumber yard delivery trucks" made life interesting when he hit a 'dip' in the road and several sheets of sheetrock and a dozen 5 gallon cans of spackle came off at 70 mph. it got real interesting for about 20 seconds or so. had to use a wood mallet to get all the dried spackle off me, the helmet and the bike when i got home. thanks to the bob tail kenworth between me and the lumber truck i had a "path" to drive through he made with his tires (and threw up the corresponding monsoon from those tires as he ran over what ever cans of spackle didn't burst in impact). a car in front of me in the right lane hit her brakes, did a 360 and nailed a bridge abutment half way through the second 360. the messiest time was in san diego in 69' was on my way back to the apartment in ocean beach on my sportster and had just picked up a shake, burger n fries from jack in the box and stuffed em in my foul weather jacket when the milk shake opened up on nimitz blvd at 50 mph, nothing like the smell of vanilla milk shake cooking on the engine as it runs down your groin and legs and 15 people waiting in back of you to make the same left turn you are. there are only two types of ships in the navy; submarines and targets !!! #1/xs1100lh dod #956 #2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| uunet:uunet!bcr!fist #include <std.disclaimer> my opinions are my own!!! i don't shop in malls, i buy my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104296">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104296" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, wcd82671@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (daniel warren c) says: yo, did anybody see this run of hard copy? no, i don't watch that bu**sh*t. the kat, although not the latest machine, is still a high performance machine and he slams on the brakes. of couse, we all know that cages, especially the ones with the disco lights, can't stop as fast as our high performance machines. so what happens?... the cage plows into the so, does this mean the cop is at fault for rear-ending the bike? you know, following too closely and reckless driving? dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104297">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104297" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v-max, pls kindly comment on its handling . i've ridden one twice. it was designed to be a monster in a straight line, which it is. it has nothing on an fzr400 in the corners. in fact, it just didn't handle that well at all in curves. but hey, that's not what it was designed to do. my two cents, 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104298">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104298" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 mark kromer, on the thu, 15 apr 1993 00:42:46 gmt wibbled: : >does the "amount of exhaust allowed to leave the engine through the : >exhaust pipe" make that much of a difference? the amount of air/fuel : >mixture that a cylender sucks in (tries to suck in) depends on the : >speed of the piston when it goes down. : ...and the pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke. : with a poor exhaust system, this pressure may be above atmospheric. : with a pipe that scavenges well this may be substantially below : atmospheric. this effect will vary with rpm depending on the tune of : the pipe; some pipes combined with large valve overlap can actually : reverse the intake flow and blow mixture out of the carb when outside : the pipes effective rev range. : >now, my question is which one provides more resistence as far as the : >engine is conserned: : >) resistance that the exhaust provides : >) or the resistance that results from the bike trying to push itself and : > the rider : two completely different things. the state of the pipe determines how : much power the motor can make. the load of the bike determines how : much power the motor needs to make. : - )v(ark)< fzr400 pilot / zx900 payload / rd400 mechanic : you're welcome. well i, for one, am so very glad that i have fuel injection! all those needles and orifices and venturi and pressures... it's worse than school human biology reproduction lessons (sex). always made me feel a bit queasy. nick (the simple minded biker) dod 1069 concise oxford tube rider m'lud. ___ ___ ___ ___ {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} nick pettefar, contractor@large. ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated at bnr, ___ ___ ___ ___ maidenhead, the united kingdom. |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 _ _ _ __ . |_______| [_______| _:_ |___| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104299">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104299" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 lets get this "no fault" stuff straight, i lived in nj when nf started, my rates went up, alot. moved to pa and my rates went down alot, the nf came to pa and it was a different story. if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it ? give up ? yours. bzzzt! if it is the other driver's fault, your insurance co pays you, less deductible, then recoups the total cost from the other guy/gal's company (there's a fancy word for it, which escapes me right now), and pays you the deductible. or: you can go to the other guy/gal's company right off - just takes longer to get your cash (as opposed to state farm, who cut me a check today, on the spot, for the damage to my wife's cage). the word is "subrogation." seems to me, if you're willing to wait for the money from scumbag's insurance, that you save having to pay the deductible. however, if scumbag's insurance is scum insurance, then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co.'s pack of rabid, large- fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance's lawyers. sad, but true. call it job security for lawyers. chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104300">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104300" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike. my dog would love it if i could ever make it work. 84wendel@cua.edu on the back might be tricky, but here in boulder, there is a guy that can always be seen with his golden retriever in the sidecar. of course, the dog is always wearing wwii style goggles (no joke) nick coburn dod#6425 ama#679817 '88cbr1000 '89cbr600 coburnn@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104301">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104301" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 & the ducati 400 model is essentially a reduced displacement 750, which & means it weighs the same and is the same size as the 750 with far less & power. it is produced specifically to meet a vehicle tax restriction & in certain markets which makes it commercially viable. it's not sold & in the us where it is unneeded and unwanted. & as such, it's somewhat large and overweight for its motor. it will & still handle magnificently, it just won't be very fast. there are & very few other flaws to mention; the limited steering lock is the & annoyance noted by most testers. and the mirrors aren't perfect. the ducati 750 model is essentially a reduced displacement 900, which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the 900 with far less nope, it's 24 lbs. lightrer than the 900. power. and less brakes. a single disk that is quite impressive. with two fingers on the lever, much to beth's horror i lifted the rear wheel about 8" in a fine randy mamola impression. ;{> as such, it's somewhat large and overweight for its motor. it will still handle magnificently, it just won't be very fast. there are i have a feeling that it's going to be fast enough that beth will give a few liter bike riders fits in the future. very few other flaws to mention; the limited steering lock is the the steering locks are adjustable. annoyance noted by most testers. and the mirrors aren't perfect. beth sees fine out of them... i see 2/3 of them filled with black '86 concours.....sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster.....'ol sport-for sale dod # 055 '79 sr500.....spike, the garage rat ama #524245 queued for an m900!! fssnoc #1843 two jousts and a gather, *big fun!* 1kspt=17.28% ma bell (408) 764-5874 cool as a rule, but sometimes... e-mail txd@able.mkt.3com.com (h. lewis) disclaimer: 3com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104308">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104308" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ps. i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase. ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also. cam chain. mike mitten - gnome@pd.org - ...!emory!pd.org!gnome - ama#675197 - dod#522 irony is the spice of life. '90 bianchi backstreet '82 suzuki gs850gl "the revolution will not be televised." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104310">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104310" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i tried mailing you but your domain seems not to exist, can't even get sinet.slb.com to admit to knowing about geco, anyway here we go: : subject:gpz900 runs like a bitch. : anyone have a cure for sub zero running probs on a gpz 900. : anything below 3000 revs and the bike wants to cut out all the time, : the recommended cure in the bike mags seems to be to switch off the engine : for a minute to thaw the ice,but this is obviously not mutch of a cure. : mine has had the kawasaki heated carb mod but the problem persists, : i've covered the rad which makes the bike run warmer and moves the problem : down the temp scale a degree or two. : has anyone tried a dynojet kit on the 900 or (getting desperate) different : carbs or the fuel injection off the gpz 1100. have you talked to kawasaki, maybe they did another version of the upgrade kit. got to be worth a phone call. did you do the carb mod or did you buy it secondhand from someone who said that it had been done. is that orpington in kent? if so have you heard of the ogri mailing list which i run? its an email list for bikers in the uk and interested parties, available live or as a daily digest. let me know if you want to subscribe. good luck, dave david edmondson davide@dcs.qmw.ac.uk queen mary & westfield college dod#0777 guzzi le mans 1000 "this means the end of the horse-drawn zeppelin." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104311">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104311" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 searched without luck for a faq here. i need a left 85 aspencade mirror and honda wants $75 for it. now if this were another piece of chrome to replace the black plastic that wings come so liberally supplied with i might be able to see that silly price, but a mirror is a piece of safety equipment. the fact that honda clearly places concern for their profits ahead of concern for my safety is enough to convince me that this (my third) wing will likely be my last. in the mean time, anyboby have a non-ripoff source for a mirror? keith smith keith@hydra.unm.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104312">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104312" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 southern california ridelist -- 4/14/93 please send me any updates to this ride list. remember, only street rides that are open to all bikers are posted. please inc. phone # for further info. also, send me your e-mail address if you want mailed copies of this list. i suggest calling first to make sure that info is current. if you find out further info, please let me know. i strive for accuracy but cannot be responsible for errors. e-mail address: paulb@harley.tti.com c&d = coffee & donuts; mx = live music; f&d = food & drinks available; * = changes since last posting; ** address at end of posting apr 15-18 11th annual laughlin (nv) river run. rides to the run from points all over socal. concerts, poker runs, parties, etc., etc. this is sponsored by the southern calif. harley dealer assoc., but all bikes are welcome. reservations are only $25 at any socal harley dealer. river run 24 hr hotline: 800/266-6441. discount room reservations or concert tix: 909/883-0317 (tues-sat, 9a-noon & 1-4p). apr 17 2nd annual racing memorabilia show & sale. art, prints, photos, lithos, models, books. 310/539-8108. apr 17-18 scma route 66 tour. 714/680-4667. apr 18 scma/trac a. gypsy tour. 7a in santa monica. john lane @ 818/359-0414. apr 18 tax time run for the money (abate #19). 200 pins, prizes, games, f&d, raffles. $7 (free if you join). s/in 8-10a @ v-twin city, 565 brea canyon rd, walnut. manny @ 909/594-0086. *apr 18 3rd annual gwta loma linda children's hospital benefit run. free c&d @ start. hot dogs, etc. @ finish. s/in 8-11a @ skip fordyce motors, 7840 indiana ave., riverside. 909/679-1097. apr 23-25 mma state overnighter. frazier park. 805-522-6557 or 805/392-0540. apr 23-25 32nd yuma prison run. $20 mailin/$25 gate. camping. 310/944-2180 or 805/253-3043. apr 23-25 paso robles clean & sober run @ paso robles fairgrounds. 805/461-1211. apr 25 shamrock's 3rd annual scenic byways tour. 2 starts, 5 routes. s/in 6:30-8:30a @ simi valley honda, 4346 l.a. ave. or cycles parts, 473 w. baseline, san bernadino. picnic & bbq @ lake hughes. $14. 805/584-3983. apr 25 mra chap "e" poker run. 8a @ american legion, 600 south "d" st., peris. steve hill @ 714/244-3064. may 1 ama grand nat'l dirt track series race. pomona fairplex, 714/623-3111 or 614/891-2425. may 1 kpfk's (90.7 fm) centerstand radio show and the car show will broadcast live from autobooks, etc., 3524 w. magnolia av., burbank. carshow starts @ noonb, centerstand @ 1:30pm. 818/845-0707. may 1 abate #8 poker run. east end of bucklin park, imperial valley. s/in 8-10a. $8 includes food & entertainment. barbara @ 619/352-7006. may 1-2 pmc 47th annual greenhorn tour. 818/963-5480 or 909/593-9988. may 1-2 song dog ranch spring rally. overnight camping at this famousmotorcycle campground. mx., all you can eat or drink bbq dinner. sunday bkfst. $40/person. reserve by april 26. song dog ranch, rt 33, new cuyama (n of ojai). 805/766-2454. (keep trying this number). may 2 bsa owner's club spring ride. castaic landing. 805/273-7005. may 2 album release celebration ("helmet laws suck" by billy gordon & the blue rockers) @ la vida hot springs (91 to 57n to lambert east 5 miles on left). special guests, mx, raffle. 714/996-0720. may 2 1st annual spring round-up rodeo. (abate #27). many bike games. f&d, pins, raffle. s/in starts 9a. games @ noon. $10 ea/$18 couple (free if you join). robbies restaurant, 26020 hwy 74 (btwn perris & lake elsinore). george or susan @ 909/674-0554; allen or melanie @ 909/780-3743. may 14 mc swap meet @ orange county fairgnds, costa mesa. $6. 714/364-0515. may 14 la cnty mc swap meet. $8. 818/361-0205. may 14 christian m/c assn. socal rally. first assembly of god church, 15260 nisqually rd, victorville. bob quintard @ 909/797-9801. may 16 mother's with the most. 805/763-4614. may 16 4th annual mc awareness day. (abate #22). 9:30-5p @ american legion hall, 1340 gardena bl (crnr normandie), gardena. mx, vendors, raffles, games, etc. $5 (<12 free); ($8 w/pin). f&d. doc or carol @ 310/371-2348 or dieter @ 310/531-8942. may 16 blue knights 5th annual benefit ride. starts @ cycle parts west, san diego. harold crosby @ 619/753-7827. may 19 run for the wall. la to dc. lv (8a? or) 9a from ta truck stop where i10 & i15 meet in ontario. camping & motels available at each night's stop. rides ends up at the vietnam veterans memorial wall in washington, dc. 100,000 bikes are expected to meet there. call rod coffey @ 310/425-3145. alt info: send $1 p/h to john anderson, 5920 deer creek way, paso robles, ca 93446 or call him @ 805/237-0790. may 23 long beach mc parts exchange, lb veterans memorial stadium. 310/323-9611. may 28-31 us mc jamboree. tulare cnty fairgnds, tulare. ride in mc show, benefit poker run (sun), mx, raffles, games. starts noon on friday. $23; $11 (15 & under); free for 6 & under. 918/542-5939; 502/622-4810; 805/822-8939; 310/492-9688; 909/825-3798; 602/425-6609. may 29-31 blazing saddles tour (scma). 818/789-9932. may 30 ariel owners club annual event. 3225 greenfield ave., la. chuck walton, 818/345-6532. jun 6 fun in the sun ride (mma #2). bakersfield. 805/392-0546. jun 12-13 class act tour jun 12-13 silver eagles run. palomar, san diego. 619/569-7370. jun 20 ventura swap & show by the shop. @ ventura fairgnds. 805/656-6777. jun 20 3rd annual summer solstice poker run & pig feed. (abate #9). $15 ea/$25 couple (free if you join). pig roast, games, raffles, mx, swimming, 300 pins. s/in 8-10a @ swallows inn, i5 & ortega hwy, san juan capistrano. earl @ 714/496-3401; rick @ 714/548-3434. jun 25-27 mma's bike fest '93 @ mariposa fairgrounds (hwy 99 to hwy 140e; go 38 miles). mx, camping available; trade show, f7d, games. $25 advance/$35 gate. info & tix: 800/247-6246. jun 27 hope house benefit run (scma). 805/581-3235. jul 4 bike show @ accessories unltd** jul 4 abate #6 christmas in july. 619/569-7370. jul 11 beach ride 93 to benefit the exceptional children's jul 11 abate #8 old timers poker run. 714/998-5740. jul 16-19 4th annual unicoastal ride and joust. starts all over the west coast and goes to pine glen campground (near mammoth lakes) for a 2 or 3 day weekend of fun with the usenet personalities your fond of flaming. to get on the mail list, contact joust-request@harley.tti.com . jul 18 iron horse poker run. 805/734-3401. jul 21 2nd annual national ride to work day. jul 23-25 quaff m/c mt. palomar 17th annual overnighter @ la jolla campgrounds. 714/352-0443. jul 25 5th annual summer food run. abate #19. 818/917-2243. jul 30 mc swap meet @ orange county fairgnds, costa mesa. $6. 714/364-0515. aug 1 accessories unltd** ride aug 7 hot august nights poker run. 805/392-0546. aug 14-15 650 tour (scma area b). 805/481-3482. aug 21-22 song dog ranch summer rally. overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground. classical mx., all you can eat or drink bbq dinner. sunday bkfst. $40/person. reserve by aug 16. song dog ranch, rt 33, new cuyama (n of ojai). 805/766-2454. (keep trying this number). aug 22 vets benefit run (trac a). 714/680-4667. aug 22 mma chicken roast. camarillo park. 805/522-6557. sep 3-6 18th annual 3 flags classic. juarez, mexico to southern alberta, canada. $110/person. received by 1/23/93. frank weed @ 714/879-9432. (or try 714/962-3150) sep 3-6 abate's golden state rendezvous. 10a fri-noon mon @ mid state fairgrounds, paso robles. sep 12 iron horse rocket run. 805/734-3401. sep 19 black gold poker run (taft mc). 805/765-5085. sep 24-26 redwood run #2. sep 25-27 bonanza tour (shamrocks). 805/272-9865. oct 1 mc swap meet @ orange county fairgnds, costa mesa. $6. 714/364-0515. oct 9-10 song dog ranch fall rally. overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground. mx., all you can eat or drink bbq dinner. sunday bkfst. $40/person. reserve by oct 4. song dog ranch, rt 33, new cuyama (n of ojai). 805/766-2454. (keep trying this number). oct 16-17 scma grand tour 805/269-1399. oct 22-24 easyriders motorcycle rodeo. antelope valley fairgrounds (hwy. 14 n. to ave, i exit, right), lancaster. oct 23-24 22nd annual griffith park sidecar rally. mineral springs area of the park. doug bingham @ 818/780-5542. oct 24 mra chap "e" ride nov 7 love ride 10 to benefit the muscular dystrophy assoc. sponsored by glendale h-d, 3717 san fernando rd, glendale. 818/246-5618. nov 14 toy-key run (scma area b). 805/481-3482. nov 14 mc awareness day (abate 1) nov 21 accessories unlimited** posse ride. dec 3 mc swap meet @ orange county fairgnds, costa mesa. $6. 714/364-0515. dec 12 hathaway children's center toy run -------------------- ongoing events & notices ---------------------------- hd swap meet & show. santa fe springs drive-in, 13963 alondra blvd. 5:30-10:30p, 3rd thurs ea mo. $5 fee. 310/944-4268. note that in april, it was moved to 4/8. free seminars every saturday @ luftmeister, inc., long beach. 310/539-6420. tune in centerstand, a radio program for motorcyclists every saturday from 1:30-2pm on kpfk, 90.7 fm parents w/out partners mc club meets 2nd sat @ 8a at cocos, brea rd & colina road in diamondbar. 909/595-3785 a new mc club for women only is forming: diamonds and pearls. 818/706-3164 marc (motorcycling amateur radio club) meets 8a, 2nd sat @ denny's, 2314 e 17th st, santa ana. net @ 8p weds on 146.985- . info: ray or bonnie @ 714/551-1036. ------------------- ** addresses ----------------------------------------- follows camp -- from 210 or 10 fwy, go north on azusa ave (hwy 39) to east fork rd. go 2.5 miles east to camp (hint: look for bridge). accessories unlimited -- 24508 lyons ave (at i5), newhall. 805/255-6522. cycle parts west -- 13682 beach blvd, westminister. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104315">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104315" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 keith hanlan, on the wed, 14 apr 1993 19:20:14 gmt wibbled: : >if i remember correctly, the reason that bmw's come with those expensive, : >and relatively worthless, short lived varda batteries, is 'cause bmw owns : >a controling interest in that battery manufacturer. : what's wrong with the bmw battery? i've never had problems and i know : numerous people that are still using the original battery in there : 8-10 year old beemers. kay, my '86 k100rs still has her original battery in. she's ok nick (the sufficiently well charged biker) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud. ___ ___ ___ ___ {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} nick pettefar, contractor@large. ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated at bnr, ___ ___ ___ ___ maidenhead, the united kingdom. |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 _ _ _ __ . |_______| [_______| _:_ |___| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104317">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104317" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is, and what relation that has, if any, to the frame on my hawk gt? that way, next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez "hey, dude, nice bike, is that a deltabox frame on there?" i can say something besides "duh, er, huh?" deltabox (tm) is a registered trademark of yamaha, used to describe their aluminum perimeter frame design, used on the fzr400 and fzr1000. in cross-section, it has a five-sided appearance, so it probably really should be called a "pentabox". | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104318">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104318" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without the dog, and i wandered in to find out what had happened. he said, "somebody stole m' damn dog!". they left the harley behind. | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104319">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104319" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i can't think of another subject that generates as much contradictory advice as traffic laws and their enforcement. everybody's got an opinion and is dead certain they are right. yet acurate information is extremely difficult to come by. the dmv doesn't know. cops don't know. your traffic school instructor doesn't know. the vehicle code only tells part of the story. judges choose to interpret the laws in a wide variety of ways. and the public at large? i seldom hear any advice that doesn't disagree with something i've experienced. if you don't believe me i suggest you get a copy of the vehicle code, study it, and then sit in on a day or two of court and see what really happens. read "fight your ticket" too, but don't miss the little section at the end where it says your chances are lousy and you're basically screwed. as you may have guessed, i'm pretty down on the system here in california. i've carefully prepared for court, bringing witnesses and revealing serious holes in the officer's story, only to be slapped with the maximum allowable fine (plus assessments of over 100%) - the message clear that the judge does not appreciate john q public trying his own cases. so here's my advice when you find yourself with a ticket: take traffic school if you can. if it's a serious matter get a lawyer. a lawyer can present the exact same case as you, the difference is the paul thompson apple computer 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104320">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104320" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> > any other bikes sold long distances out there...i'd love to hear about |> it! |> i bought my vfr750 from a guy in san jose via the net. that's 825 miles |> according to my odometer! mark andy (living in pittsburgh) bought his rz350 from a dude in massachusetts (or was it connecticut?). 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104322">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104322" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 to the nedod mailing list, and jack tavares suggested i check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced. does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy? it's quite simple; the code is the week and year of manufacture. / rich sturges (h) 703-536-4443 \ / nswc - carderock division (w) 301-227-1670 \ / "i speak for no one else, and listen to the same." \ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104323">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104323" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 any other bikes sold long distances out there...i'd love to hear about it! i bought my moto guzzi from a univ of va grad student in charlottesville last spring. mark cervi, cervi@oasys.dt.navy.mil, (w) 410-267-2147 dod #0603 mgnoc #12998 '87 moto guzzi sp-ii "what kinda bikes that?" a moto guzzi. "what's that?" its italian. mark cervi, carderockdiv, nswc code 852, annapolis, md 21402 cervi@oasys.dt.navy.mil, (w) 410-267-2147 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104325">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104325" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was going to try radial keratotomy, but they want over $2,000 per eye! that's a lot of contact lenses and sunglasses! and a lot of money if they make one tiny mistake ;-o jeff nichols also if they don't get it exactly right or your eyes change again, contacts to correct for it are out of the question. this is due to the strange conical shape your cornea takes after the surgery. michael manning mmanning@icomsim.com (nextmail accepted.) `92 flstf fatboy `92 ducati 900ss 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104327">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104327" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 if we are only talking about 4-stroke (i think i can understand exhaust pulse affect in a 2-stroke), the intake valve is closed on the exhaust stroke and the gas is pushed out by the cyclinder. i guess there is some gas compression that may affect the amount pushed out but the limiting factor seems to be the header pipe and not the canister. meaning: would gases "so far" down the line (the canister) really have an effect on the exhaust stroke? do the gases really compress that much? for discussion purposes, i will ignore dynamic effects like pulses in the exhaust pipe, and try to paint a useful mental picture. 1. unless an engine is supercharged, the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is _atmospheric_. at the time the intake valve is opened, the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure (left over after the exhaust stroke) and atmospheric. as the piston decends on the intake stroke, combustion chamber pressure is decreased, allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract. at no time does the pressure ever become "negative", or even approach a good 2. at the time of the exhaust valve closing, the pressure in the combustion chamber is essentially the pressure of the exhaust system up to the first major flow restriction (the muffler). note that the volume of gas that must flow through the exhaust is much larger than the volume that must flow through the intake, because of the temperature difference and the products of combustion. 3. in the last 6-8 years, the japanese manufacturers have started paying attention to exhaust and intake tuning, in pursuit of almighty horsepower. at this point in time, on high-performance bikes, substitution of an aftermarket free-flow air filter will have almost zero affect on performance, because the stock intake system flows very well anyway. substitution of an aftermarket exhaust system will make very little difference, unless (in general) the new exhaust system is _much_ louder than the stocker. 4. on older bikes, exhaust back-pressure was the dominating factor. if free-flowing air filters were substituted, very little difference was noted, unless a free-flowing exhaust system was installed as well. 5. in general, an engine can be visualized as an air pump. at any given rpm, anything that will cause the engine to pump more air, be it on the intake or exhaust side, will cause it to produce more horsepower. pumping more air will require recalibration (rejetting) of the carburetor. | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104328">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104328" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 personally, i follow the no alcohol rule when i'm on a bike. my view is that you have to be in such a high degree of control that any alcohol could be potentially hazardous to my bike! if i get hurt it's my own fault, but i don't want to wreck my katana. i developed this philosophy from an impromptu *experiment*. i had one beer at 6:00 in the evening and had volleyball practice at 7:00. i wasn't even close to leagle intoxication, but i couldn't perform even the most basic things until 8:30! this made me think about how i viewed alcohol and intoxication. you may seem fine, but your reactions may be affected such that you'll be unable to recover from hitting a rock or even just a gust of wind. i greatly enjoy social drinking but, for me, it just doesn't mix with riding. max enjoyment! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104331">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104331" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 now, i am jumping into the middle of this thread so i may not know what y'all been talking about, but i have a few comments: 1. unless an engine is supercharged, the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is _atmospheric_. at the time the intake valve is opened, the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure (left over after the exhaust stroke) and atmospheric. as the piston decends on the intake stroke, combustion chamber pressure is decreased, allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract. at no time does the pressure ever become "negative", or even approach a good there are a number of other factors that are very important, the three biggest being air velocity, air momentum and shock waves. velocity stacks have been used for years and are now being used inside of stock airboxes on a number of bikes. at a tuned engine rpm, the stacks can greatly increase the speed, and thus momentum of the air rushing in. air momentum is critical in getting good air intake: the momentum of the air stack outside the combustion chamber will force its way inside long after the piston has begun its compressive up-stroke. shock waves are used to induce air intake and to prevent fresh air from escaping out the exzhaust ports. shock waves are the product of expansion chambers or any other means of presenting a 'wall' (opening or closing) to the air in motion. beyond this i am lost in the mystery of how they design for shock waves. / rich sturges (h) 703-536-4443 \ / nswc - carderock division (w) 301-227-1670 \ / "i speak for no one else, and listen to the same." \ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104334">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104334" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving |> me |> a contact to purchase a pair of military air-borne combat boots (9 |> 1/2 |> d in size). these boots (so i have read here on rec.moto) are calf |> height boots that use only velcro for enclosure. i have phoned |> around |> and nobody seems to carry such an item. i admit i have not gone |> into |> the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but i have made some |> calls to several of the bigger army/navy type stores with no luck. |> anyone out there know of a place that does carry such an item as |> well |> as does mail order? any help would be appreciated. currently there are no "velcro" jump boots as issue in the military, there are two other kinds. one is made my cochran and sell for $85.00 in either the clothing sales store or us cavalry (price match at the cav store) the second co is also sold but somewhat cheaper in design. actually they don't care what you wear as long is they are 10 eyelets high. there is another boot called a "tankers boot" this has similar construction to a wellington boot except for the boot shape and has straps that wrap around for tightness. nice boots there are only two types of ships in the navy; submarines and targets !!! #1/xs1100lh dod #956 #2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| uunet:uunet!bcr!fist #include <std.disclaimer> my opinions are my own!!! i don't shop in malls, i buy my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104335">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104335" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 if i have one thing to say about "no fault" it would be "it isn't" there are only two types of ships in the navy; submarines and targets !!! #1/xs1100lh dod #956 #2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| uunet:uunet!bcr!fist #include <std.disclaimer> my opinions are my own!!! i don't shop in malls, i buy my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104336">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104336" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without |> the |> dog, and i wandered in to find out what had happened. |> he said, "somebody stole m' damn dog!". they left the harley |> behind. animal rights people have been know to do that to other "bike riding dogs.cats and racoons. there are only two types of ships in the navy; submarines and targets !!! #1/xs1100lh dod #956 #2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| uunet:uunet!bcr!fist #include <std.disclaimer> my opinions are my own!!! i don't shop in malls, i buy my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104339">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104339" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 reading all you folks things to do to illegally parked cars made me wonder who's going to carry cinder blocks on a bike(?!?!?) or is ready to do serious damage (key carvings etc.) to a cage. then i had an idea--chain lube isn't just for chain's anymore!!! it seems more reasonable to me, no permanent damage but lots of work to get off! (don't ask me how i know :) use it anywhere, the windshield, the door handles, in the keyhole, etc. what a nasty mood i'm in. it's raining again... _______________________ k _ e _ n ____________________________ | ken snyder ms/loc: 330 / un2 | | hewlett-packard co. lsid : lake stevens instrument div. | | 8600 soper hill road gte/tn: (206) 335-2253 / 335-2253 | | everett, wa 98205-1298 un-ix : kens@lsid.hp.com | |______________________________________________________________| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104341">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104341" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 js>from: stafford@vax2.winona.msus.edu (john stafford) js>in article <1pppnrinnitg@cronkite.central.sun.com>, js>> js>> how about a decal of thicker vinyl? js> how about a geeky temporary tatoo? i mean, why should the js> rubs be exempt from a little razzing. that's sick! i want! you make 'em up, i promise to order. i wannabe badtothebone! the cheesy "live to ride" eagles are sitting on my shelf, waiting for the big ride down the coast. (it now looks like we may hit points farther south than expected. how do i get in contact with bay area denizens? replies to address below. me n' charlie will be along in early or mid may.) seriously. i like the idea of temporary geekys (geekies? geekae? geekii?). it fits the whole dod image: it sounds bad, but it's really ryan cousinetc.|1982 yamaha vision xz550 -black pig of inverness|live to ride kotrb |1958 ajs 500 c/s -king rat |to work to dod# 0863 |i'd be a squid if i could afford the bike... |flame to ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org | vancouver, bc, canada |live . . . js>==================================================== js>john stafford minnesota state university @ winona js> all standard disclaimers apply. * slmr 2.1a * if lucas built weapons, wars wouldn't start, either. |computer dynamics bbs 604-255-9937(hst) 604-986-9937(v32)| |vancouver, bc, canada - easy access, low rates, friendly sysop| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104342">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104342" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 jl-ns>subject: re: motorcycle courier (summer job) i'd like to thank everyone who replied. i will probably start looking in earnest after may, when i return from my trip down the pacific coast (the geographical feature, not the bike). ryan cousinetc.|1982 yamaha vision xz550 -black pig of inverness|live to ride kotrb |1958 ajs 500 c/s -king rat |to work to dod# 0863 |i'd be a squid if i could afford the bike... |flame to ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org | vancouver, bc, canada |live . . . * slmr 2.1a * have bike, will travel. quickly. very quickly. |computer dynamics bbs 604-255-9937(hst) 604-986-9937(v32)| |vancouver, bc, canada - easy access, low rates, friendly sysop| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104343">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104343" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i know it sounds ludicrous for a biker to advocate restrictions on biking in a biking forum, don't you mean "former motorcyclist?" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104345">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104345" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 no anyone who is a "true" rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave, weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike, inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you're too low to be acknowleged. this you'll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am, however i still give them a wave, and ride secure in the knowlege that i'm a better persob than they are. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104346">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104346" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : in article <c5g7hv.cs@unix.amherst.edu> nrmendel@unix.amherst.edu (nathaniel : >: yes, my front tire is all but dead. it has minimal tread left, so it's : >: time for a new one. any recommendations on a good tire in front? i'm : >: riding on an almost brand new me55a in back. : >: steve mansfield | the system we've learned says we're equal under la : >: smm@uunet.uu.net | but the streets are reality, the weak and poor will : >: 1983 suzuki gs550e | let's tip the power balance and tear down the crown : >: dod# 1718 | educate the masses, we'll burn the white house down. : >: queensryche - speak the word. : >the best thing is to match front and back, no? given that the 99a ("perfect" : >is such a good tire, just go with that one : the me99a perfect is a rear. the match for the front is the me33 laser. : dod #306 k.o. : ama #615088 orr@epcot.spdc.ti.com yeah, what *he* said....<:) zx-10 dod 0812 yes, you definitely need a front tire on a motorcycle....<grin> 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104347">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104347" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }in heavy traffic i slow down a bit, mostly so i have more buffer zone in }front to balance the minimal buffer behind, but i also often find that the }jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster in other lanes, switch }into one of them, and pass me - which is fine, because then i can keep a }better eye on the jerk from behind, while looking ahead, rather than }from in front, while splitting my attention between ahead and the mirrors. this is pretty damned complicated. i just make a "back off" motion with my hand/arm, and the second or third time even the most braindead cager backs off. if they don't back off then, i find a way to get the hell out of there -- the cager is either psychotic, drunk, or just a complete asshole. in any case, i don't want to be anywhere near, and especially not in front. curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george" "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104348">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104348" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i need help with my '85 zx900a, i put supertrapp slip-on's on it and had the carbs re-jetted to match a set of k&n filters that replaced the stock airbox. now i have a huge flat spot in the carburation at about 5 thousand rpm in most any gear. this is especially frustrating on the highway, the bike likes to cruise at about 80mph which happens to be 5,0000 rpm in sixth gear. i've had it "tuned" and this doesn't seem to help. i am thinking about new carbs or the injection system from a gpz 1100. does anyone have any suggestions for a fix besides restoring it to stock? starr@kuhub.ukans.cc.edu the brain dead." -ted nugent it sound like to me that your carbs are not jetted properly. if you did it yourself, take it to a shop and get it done right. if a shop did it, get your money back, and go to another shop. |bennett leve 84 v-65 sabre | i'm drowning, throw | |orlando, fl 73 xl 250 | me a bagel. | |hoggle!hoggle2!bleve@peora.sdc.ccur.com | | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104352">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104352" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 included in thas sale is a cover . the cover is not sold separately. the trailer is not being sold. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104355">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104355" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ok -- so we've got a hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept my question is the history of the bmw organization that lead to the formation of the bmwra. was there something going on in the oa years ago that precipitated the formation of two competing owner's groups? just to stave off flames: i'm a (relatively new) member of both groups and besides a difference in the slickness of the magazines, it seems the major difference is that the ra guys seem to have more fun. . . art campbell artc@world.std.com 72227.1375@compuserve.com dod 358 _real_ bmws have just two wheels. "... in my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 vincent and a redheaded girl." -- richard thompson 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104358">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104358" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hi. i have been thinking about buying a motorcycle or a while now and i have some questions: -is there a buying guide for new/used motorcycles (that lists reliability, how to go about the buying process, what to look for, etc...)? -is there a pricing guide for new/used motorcycles (blue book)? -are there any books/articles on riding cross country, motorcycle camping, etc? -is there an idiots' guide to motorcycles? any related information is helpful. please respond directly to me. thanks a lot. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104360">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104360" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ;>most people wave or return my wave when i'm on my harley. ;>other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i'm on my ;>duck. squids don't wave, or return waves ever, even to each ;>other, from what i can tell. ; when we take a hand off the bars we fall down! the problem is that squids and badassbikers can't recognize each other's waves. when you're riding a cruiser, you "wave" by lifting two or three fingers of the left hand, without first removing that hand from the handlebar. when you're riding a crotch rocket, you lower the left hand to about ankle level, palm forward, and call that a wave. generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around, so it's easy to tell when they're waving. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104361">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104361" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in three years of riding in the cities of san jose, santa clara, and sunnyvale i never came into any conflict with the local police over my lane splitting habits (all three of these cities were listed earlier as being anti-splitting in one way or another). i can't say whether this was due to luck, police kindness, or there not actually being any ordinances against it in these cities, so i continue..... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104362">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104362" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something. i've weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method: slow down to screw up dog's triangulation of target, then take off and laugh at the dog, now far behind you. this time, it didn't work because i didn't have time. riding up the hill leading to my house, i encountered a liver-and-white springer spaniel (no relation to the springer softail, or the springer spagthorpe, a close relation to the spagthorpe viking). actually, the dog encountered me with intent to [interesting dog collision story deleted] what worries me about the accident is this: i don't think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was. this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area, but i was riding around the speed limit. i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog, but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at 15-30 mph. for that matter, how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit 30 mph by the end? i eagerly await comment. my driveway and about half my neighbor's driveways are long enough to do a good 80 clicks (50mph for the velocity impaired) if we wanted to. granted, i live in the country, however i've seen neighbors whip out of their driveways at the above mentioned 30 mph quite a bit- they claim they can tell that "there's noone on the road for quite a ways." this despite having nearly been hit myself by one of them while driving a chev 4x4, and twice taking my 10-speed bicycle over the hood of a car that had pulled out, saw me, *then* stopped. same driver. same car. about two months apart. obmoto: the scary relevant part is that these people and i live on the type of twisty two lane that we all favor for riding- and i know damn well that they can't see me on my bike, not if they couldn't see me in my pickup. ryan cousinetc.|1982 yamaha vision xz550 -black pig of inverness|live to ride kotrb |1958 ajs 500 c/s -king rat |to work to dod# 0863 |i'd be a squid if i could afford the bike... |flame to ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org | vancouver, bc, canada |live . . . * slmr 2.1a * "he's hurt." "dammit jim, i'm a doctor -- oh, right." |computer dynamics bbs 604-255-9937(hst) 604-986-9937(v32)| |vancouver, bc, canada - easy access, low rates, friendly sysop| there's nothing like the pitter-patter of little feet, followed by the words "hey- you're not my daddy!" (sorry- i had to do it just once) dean woodward | "you want to step into my world? dean@fringe.rain.com | it's a socio-psychotic state of bliss..." '82 virago 920 | -guns'n'roses, 'my world' dod # 0866 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104364">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104364" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, bgardner@pebbles.es.com (blaine gardner) says: i guess i'm out of touch, but what exactly is the ducati 400? a v-twin desmo, or is it that half-a-v-twin with the balance weight where the 2nd cylinder would go? a 12 second 1/4 for a 400 isn't bad at all. sorry, i should have been more specific. the 750 ss ran the quater in 12.10 @ 108.17. the last small v-twin duc we got in the us (and the 400 is a pantah based v-twin) was the 500sl pantah, and it ran a creditable 13.0 @ 103. modern carbs and what not should put the 400 in the high 12s at 105. btw, fzr 400s ran mid 12s, and the latest crop of japanese 400s will out run that. it's hard to remember, but but a new goof2 will clobber an old kz1000 handily, both in top end and roll-on. technology stands still for no-one... not too hard to remember, i bought a gs1000 new in '78. :-) it was 3rd place in the '78 speed wars (behind the cbx & xs eleven) with a 11.8 @ 113 1/4 mile, and 75 horses. that wouldn't even make a good 600 these days. then again, i paid $2800 for it, so technology isn't the only thing that's changed. of course i'd still rather ride the old gs across three states than any of the 600's. i guess it's an indication of how much things have changed that a 12 second 400 didn't seem too far out of line. blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104366">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104366" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : >: english cars:- : >: rover, reliant, morgan, bristol, rolls royce, etc. : > talk about harleys using old technology, these : >morgan people *really* like to use old technology. : well, if you want to pick on morgan, why not attack its ash (wood) : frame or its hand-bent metal skin (just try and get a replacement :-)). : i thought the kingpost suspension was one of the mog's better features. hey! i wasn't picking on morgan. they use old technology. that's all i said. there's nothing wrong with using old technology. people still use shovels to dig holes even though there are lots of new powered implements to dig holes with. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104367">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104367" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ]"get the organization to act on it" is easy to say, but says little ]about what one really can and should do. what the organization ]actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors, ]as far as i can see. that's what makes it so important to vote in an ]election of officers. if i remember right, i heard that in the last election, only 18% of the members actually cast votes. i wonder if the current board and their friends and relatives make up 18% of the membership :-) :-) i certainly plan on staying with the club long enough to vote and to see the results. ]it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active (in ]the state and national arenas, not infighting) than other m/c ]organizations. should we change this? or just join the other groups ]that already are in politics? i wouldn't support the moa becoming politically active in that sense. the ama already knows how to do that and i'd rather see the moa support the ama in a manner that the *ama* needs. i think that more could be accomplished from one strong front rather than two not neccessarily coordinated ones. joe senner joe@rider.cactus.org austin area ride mailing list ride@rider.cactus.org texas splatterfest mailing list fest@rider.cactus.org 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104368">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104368" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ]i wrote the slash two blues for a bit of humor which seems to be lacking ]in the moa owners news, when most of the stuff is "i rode the the first ]day, i saw that, i rode there the second day, i saw this" i admit it was a surprise to find something interesting to read in the most boring and worthless mag of all the ones i get. ]any body out there know were the sense if humor went in people? ]i though i still had mine, but i dunno... i think most people see your intended humor, i do, i liked the article. you seem to forget that you've stepped into the political arena. as well intentioned as you may intend something you're walking through a china store carrying that /2 on your head. everything you say or do says something about how you would represent the membership on any given day. you don't have to look far in american politics to see what a few light hearted jokes about one segment of the population can do to someone in the limelight. obmoto: i did manage to squeak in a reference to a /2 ;-) joe senner joe@rider.cactus.org austin area ride mailing list ride@rider.cactus.org texas splatterfest mailing list fest@rider.cactus.org 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104371">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104371" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i first heard it about academic politics but the same thought seems to apply to the bmwmoa "the politics is so dirty because the stakes are so small." who cares? i get my dues-worth from the ads and occasional technical articles in the "news". i skip the generally drab articles about someone's trek across iowa. if some folks get thrilled by the power of the bmwmoa, they deserve whatever thrills their sad lives provide. btw, i voted for new blood just to keep things stirred up. henry prange physiology/iu sch. med., blgtn., 47405 dod #0821; bmwmoa #11522; gsi #215 ride = '92 r100gs; '91 rx-7 conv = cage/2; '91 explorer = cage*2 the four tenets of all major religions: 1. i am right. 2. you are wrong. 3. hence, you deserve to be punished. 4. by me. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104372">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104372" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : okay dod'ers, here's a goddamn mystery for ya ! oh goody! i love a puzzle. watson! the games afoot! : today i was turning a 90 degree corner just like on any other day, but there : was a slight difference- a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension : to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very : tangible "thunk". i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage. <stuff deleted> : okay all you engineering types, how the f**k do you explain this ? how can you : rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole (in alloy) without : damaging the thread in the hole ? is this some sort of hi-tech design thingo let me guess. you were making a left turn, correct? the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself. if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104373">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104373" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 mjs>secondly, it is the adhesion of the mjs>tyre on the road, the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the mjs> motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles, and mjs>not the knowledge of physics between the rider's ears. are you seriously mjs>suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster mjs>or more competently than you could manage otherwise?? ed>if he's not, i will. hey ed, you didn't give me the chance! sheesh! the answer is, absolutely!, as ed so eloquently describes: ed>put two riders on identical machines. it's the ed>one who knows what he's doing, and why, that will be faster. it *may* ed>be possible to improve your technique if you have no idea what it is, ed>through trial and error, but it is not very effective methodology. ed>only by understanding the technique of steering a motorcycle can one ed>improve on that technique (i hold that this applies to any human ed>endeavor). herein lies the key to this thread: kindly note the difference in the responses. ed (and i) are talking about knowing riding technique, while mike is arguing knowing the physics behind it. it *is* possible to be taught the technique of countersteering (ie: push the bar on the inside of the turn to go that way) *without* having to learn all the fizziks about gyroscopes and ice cream cones and such as seen in the parallel thread. that stuff is mainly of interest to techno-motorcycle geeks like the readers of rec.motorcycles ;^), but doesn't need to be taught to the average student learning c-steering. mike doesn't seem to be able to make the distinction. i know people who can carve circles around me who couldn't tell you who newton was. on the other hand, i know very intelligent, well-educated people who think that you steer a motorcycle by either: 1) leaning, 2) steering a la bicycles, or 3) a combination of 1 and 2. knowledge of physics doesn't get you squat - knowledge of technique does! mr. bill 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104375">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104375" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 with a hostile dog, or one which you repeatedly encounter, stronger measures may be necessary. this is the face off. first -- and there is very important -- make sure you never face off a dog on his territory. face him off on the road, not on his driveway. if necessary, have a large stick, rolled up newspaper, etc. (something the beast will understand is something that will hurt him). stand your ground, then slowly advance. your mental attitude is that you are very angry and are going to dispense terrible punishment. the larger the dog, the greater your anger. this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog's conformance to a "psychological norm" that may not actually apply to a particular dog. i've tried it with some success before, but it won't work on a charlie manson dog or one that's really, *really* stupid. a large irish setter taught me this in *my* yard (apparently his territory) one day. i'm sure he was playing a game with me. the game was probably "kill the very angry neighbor" before he can dispense the terrible punishment. chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104377">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104377" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> never dilly-dally in that rear 1/4 of either side of a cage - when you pass |> make it as positive as possible and if you can't pass fully, at least make |> sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least |> getting into his area of vision. this reads a lot like the philosophies of musashi, in the book of five rings. much of the section on the long sword is that of being strong and decisive. hmmm. the more things change.... |> ride with four eyes... what an awfull thing to call your pillion! |> rich |> "fear not the evil men do in the name of evil, but heaven protect |> us from the evil men do in the name of good" power corrupts. check out the explosion that the cryptography policy from the whitehouse friday has caused.... curt howland "ace" dod#0663 eff#569 howland@nsipo.nasa.gov '82 v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards, for it makes them soggy and hard to re-light. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104380">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104380" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ;revving the throttle requires either [dis]engaging the clutch, ;or accelerating. not if it's a harley. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104381">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104381" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> hello there |> ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v-max, pls kindly |> comment on its handling . i remember a commercial for some cheap, top- heavy import cage a while back, where the driver says while wearing a stuck-up fake tv anouncers smile: "it really goes straight!" it fits. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104384">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104384" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [squid deleted] 5. helment laws vary from state to state. in my state (louisiana) it is the law. i personaly, would not go 2 feet on a bike without one law or no law. a helment will save your life. i'll go 2 feet, but i draw the line at 3. blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104385">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104385" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am considering the purchase of a 1984 honda 1000cc interceptor for $2095 cdn (about $1676 us). i don't know the mileage on this bike, but from the picture in the 'rv trader' magazine, it looks to be in good shape. can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase? is it a good bike? this will be my first bike. (i realize that, for a beginner, 1000cc is considered too be a bit too much bike. i have heard from friends that were once beginners that if they had to start all over again that they would have started with a bigger bike. one just has to be careful and not drive outside their skill level.) i had considered (and posted about two weeks ago) the purchase of 1982 600cc yamaha seca turbo with 33000 km, but i am a little wary now about the prospect of having to deal with a turbo (both on the road and in the shop). i may still consider this bike (the price dropped from $1300 to $1100 cdn), but the honda seems to be a good bike. one word "heavy". it steers heavy, turns require alot of effort. hard to get access to the large v-4 motor. weak/small front forks with anti-dive gizmos! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104387">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104387" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ]is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? joe senner joe@rider.cactus.org austin area ride mailing list ride@rider.cactus.org texas splatterfest mailing list fest@rider.cactus.org 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104390">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104390" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 bzzzt! if it is the other driver's fault, your insurance co pays you, less deductible, then recoups the total cost from the other guy/gal's company (there's a fancy word for it, which escapes me right now), and pays you the deductible. or: you can go to the other guy/gal's company right off - just takes longer to get your cash (as opposed to state farm, who cut me a check today, on the spot, for the damage to my wife's cage). the word is "subrogation." seems to me, if you're willing to wait for the money from scumbag's insurance, that you save having to pay the deductible. however, if scumbag's insurance is scum insurance, then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co.'s pack of rabid, large- fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance's lawyers. sad, but true. call it job security for lawyers. chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady you know, it sounds suspiciously like no fault doesn't even do what it was advertised as doing---getting the lawyers out of the loop. sigh. another naive illusion down the toilet.... tommy mcguire mcguire@cs.utexas.edu mcguire@austin.ibm.com "...i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information, identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm...." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104391">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104391" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 am amazed at the number of harley riders who are waving even to a lowly baby ninja. let's keep up the good attitudes. brock yates said in this months car and driver he is ready for a war (against those who would rather we all rode busses). we bikers should be too. it's a freedom that we all wanna know and it's an obsession to some to keep the world in your rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun "wheels" by rhestless heart marty o. 87 250 ninja 73 xl 250 motosport 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104394">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104394" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }>on a }>waterski bike, you turn the handlebars left to lean right, just like on }>a motorcycle, so this supports the move-the-contact-patch-from-beneath-the }>centre-of-mass theory on how to *lean*. this contradicts the need for }>gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced *lean*. }...for a waterski bike. it contradicts nothing for a motorcycle. not only that, but this morning i saw a tv ad for a waterski bike (a sea doo, for those who care). i watched the lengthy ad very carefully, and in every case and at every speed the riders turned the handlebars left to go left, and right to go right. in other words, they were *not* countersteering. so perhaps it is only *some* waterski bikes on which one countersteers... curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george" "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104395">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104395" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 anyone in europe got any advice for a us citizen whose going to be living and working in italy for a year and wants to buy a motorcycle there? an italian friend just arrived here in washington state to work for two years, and she's finding it very very difficult to obtain car insurance. so i thought i'd ask... i have a us license, with motorcycle endorsement (unlimited displacement), and have had for 30 years. i am also a washington state motorcycle safety instructor, if that info might help. i will post a summary, even if it's just of my own personal experience in buying a bike and getting it insured after i get to italy. h. marc lewis | "there are two kinds of people in the world -- olivetti north america | those who divide everything in the world into marcl@mail.spk.olivetti.com | two kinds of things and those who don't" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104396">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104396" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 don't you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine? the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound. moisten a rag, apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent, previously transparent, material. after a few minutes of working on the plastic face, the dial, or plastic face will be clear once more. will not work for glass. btw. i am not responsible for damages incurred when using the above method. most models can use the treatment = the beav |mike beavington|bellnorthernresearch ottawa,ont,canada| dod:9733= = seca 400->seca 400->rz350->seca750->suzuki550->seca650turbo->v65sabre = = (-> 1994 gts1000 ...can't afford the '93) | mbeaving@bnr.ca = mcguire's makes a plastic scratch/removing compound and a plastic polishing compound which really work great as well. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104398">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104398" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> i've got a '81 cb400t with chen-shing (sp?) tires on it. |> i got it with these tires on it! the only reason i need new tires |> is beacuse i hate (and don't feel safe on) these. |> i'd appreciate any recomendations i can get (about new tires!). |> thanks, |> tony i'll throw in a vote for a metzler "economy" tire, the me77. good for mid-size older bikes. rated to 130mph. wearing well and handles my 12 mile ride(twisties) to work well on the sr500. costs a bit more than the chengs/irc's etc, but still less than the sport metzlers for the newer bikes. cost from chaparral is about $60 for the front, and $70 for the rear. jon m.(mike) corcoran <mike.corcoran@sandiego.ncr.com> '78 yamaha sr500 - '72 honda xl250 - '70 husky 400 cross 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104399">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104399" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : also watch your mirrors any time you are turning. i just had another close : one last night. preparing for a right turn on a two lane road. right turn : signals on, starting the turn, and this lady behind me hits the throttle and : starts to pass me on the right. this has happened to me twice before. the i have had this happen to me often enough that i always look for it. on my ride to work in the morning i come to a stop light where there are 3 lanes in my direction. one for left turns, one for straight through, and one for right turns. all clearly marked. plus there is a clearly marked bicycle lane. i ride into the right turn lane with my signal on and stop at the stop line. looking left to see if i can make a "right turn on red" and when i start to move discovered that some idiot has pulled into the bike lane and is trying to pass me on the right. grrr. i always do a head check on bike lanes. not always for bicycles. . . * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104400">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104400" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa, but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole. when you guys sort this out let me know. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104401">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104401" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, manish@uclink.berkeley.edu (manish vij) says: can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle? and how much might it cost? hmmmmmm....put your butt in the seat and follow the road signs? dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104403">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104403" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike. my dog would love it if i could ever make it work. 84wendel@cua.edu if a large malmute counts then yes someone has heard(and seen) such an irresponsible childish stunt. the dog needed assistance straightening out once on board. the owner would lift the front legs of dog and throw them over the driver/pilots shoulders. said dog would get shit eating grin on its face and away they'd go. the dogs ass was firmly planted on the seat. my dog and this dog actively seek each other out at camping party's. they hate each other. i think it's something personal. steatopygias's 'r' us. doh#0000000005 that ain't no hottentot. sesquipedalian's 'r' us. zx-10. ama#669373 dod#564. there ain't no more. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104405">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104405" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : in states with no-fault auto-insurance, this applies. you basically insure your : own vehicle, and the max you can sue for is about $400 (in mi, anyway). : the point to be made with no-fault, is the fact that it removes the lawyers from the : system, and lets people get their money faster. the removal of lawyers, reduces the : clogs on court system, and thus, reduces government burdens, by not requiring so : many judges. : does it work?? i don't know, ask the people of michigan.... no, ask the people of new jersey where the "no-fault" hoax has been going on for years. last i heard every state that ever got no-fault insurance saw an increase in rates. i know that's what happened in nj because i lived there when it changed. just one more reason i will never go back to that state. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * in colorado my agent tells me that no fault only applies to the medical coverage. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104409">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104409" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the other day, it was raining cats and dogs, therefor i was going only to the speed limit, on nothing more, on my bike. this guy in his bmw was driving 1-2 meters behind me for 7-800 meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg, walked back to this car, he rolled down the window, and i told him he was a total idiot (and the reason why). did i do the right thing? absolutely, unless you are in the u.s. then the cager will pull a gun and blow you away. | bob mugele (jungle bob) | email: rmugele@oracle.com | | senior computational linguist | phone: 214-401-5875 | | oracle corp. | moto: '81 gs450es '87 concours | | irving, texas | dod#: 283 | | if vegetarians eat vegetables, beware of the humanitarians | | --dr. bob | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104410">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104410" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ( sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx200 was. ) i should be road legal tomorrow. i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances. there should be no worries about the trans. being a reletively new reader, i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup. i would ask how to get my own dod number, but i'll probably be too busy riding ;-). does this count? $ cat dod.faq | mailx -s "hahahha" jburnside@ll.mit.edu (waiting to press return...) chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104413">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104413" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the rider (pilot?) of practically every riceburner i've passed recently has waved to me and i'm wondering if it will last. could they simply be overexuberant that their 'burners have been removed from winter moth-balls and the novelty will soon dissipate? perhaps the gray beard that sprouted since the last rice season makes them think i'm a friendly old fart that deserves a wave... maybe...then again did you get rid of that h/d of yorn and buy a rice rocket of your own? that would certainly explain the friendliness...unless you maybe had a piece of toilet paper stuck on the bottom of your boot...8-). rich bemben - dod #0044 rbemben@timewarp.prime.com 1977 750 triumph bonneville (617) 275-1800 x 4173 "fear not the evil men do in the name of evil, but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104414">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104414" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : mcguire's makes a plastic scratch/removing compound and a plastic : polishing compound which really work great as well. a useful tip. how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip #19 ? the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike. same is true for one of the turn signals. both of the scuffed areas are black plastic. i recall reading somewhere, that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with, then rub it down, ending with a nice smooth shiny finish ? anyone any ideas. tony jones (ant@cray.com, ..!uunet!cray!ant) cmcs codegeneration group, software division cray research inc, 655f lone oak drive, eagan, mn 55121 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104415">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104415" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |the difference of opinion, and difference in motorcycling between the sport-bike |riders and the cruiser-bike riders. that difference is only in the minds of certain closed-minded individuals. i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of "cruiser" bikes (hi don, eddie!), yet i ride anything but. continuously, on this forum, and on the street, you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals. cruiser-bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders (what they like and dislike about motorcycling). this is not closed-minded. to not recognize this, is in effect, close-minded. |a lot of it, reminded me of rec.motorcycles and the insipid flame-age thereof.. if you so dislike it, my occasionally leather-clad poser pal, why read it? i scan it for information, a lot of it is noise and pointless flame-age. (it's why i used trn, instead of rn) if you have a problem with that, i'm really sorry for you.. => dan declerck | email: declrckd@rtsg.mot.com <= => motorola cellular apd | <= =>"friends don't let friends wear neon"| phone: (708) 632-4596 <= 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104416">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104416" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |>|the difference of opinion, and difference in motorcycling between the sport-bike |>|riders and the cruiser-bike riders. |>that difference is only in the minds of certain closed-minded individuals. i |>have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of "cruiser" |>bikes (hi don, eddie!), yet i ride anything but. |continuously, on this forum, and on the street, you find quite a difference |between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals. yes, yes, yes. motorcycling is slightly different to each and every one of us. this is the nature of people, and one of the beauties of the sport. |cruiser-bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders |(what they like and dislike about motorcycling). this is not closed-minded. and what view exactly is it that every single rider of cruiser bikes holds, a veiw that, of course, no sport-bike rider could possibly hold? please quantify your generalization for us. careful, now, you're trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people. dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104417">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104417" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [...] on a waterski bike, you turn the handlebars left to lean right, just like on a motorcycle, i don't think this is the case, at least not on all jetskis. on my friend's jetski, bars turn left to go left. anyway, all you're doing there is changing the yaw of the jets, so the relationship between the handlbars and the rear-mounted jets is completely arbitrary (simple linkage could make it work either way). so this supports the move-the-contact-patch-from-beneath-the centre-of-mass theory on how to *lean*. this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced *lean*. it seems to me that jetskis are even more irrelevant to this discussion than snow skis. but it *has* been an amusing digression. hey ed, how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse's reins left to go left? :-) or am i confusing two threads here? phil stone new address----------> pstone@well.sf.ca.us '83 r80st "motorcycles ok" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104418">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104418" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> >ultra sticky labels printed with your |> >favourite curse are good - even our local hospitals use them instead of |> >wheel clamps, putting one (about a5 size) on each window of the cage. |> an apartment complex where i used to live tried this, only they put the |> thing over the driver's window, "so they couldn't miss it." a friend |> damned near wrecked on the way home one night, her vision blocked by |> the sticker. i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they |> were assuming by pulling that stunt. (not that logic has anything to do with it, but...) i can see the liability of putting stickers on the car while it was moving, or something, but it's the bdi that chooses to start and then drive the car in a known unsafe condition that would (seem to be) liable. furthermore, they would have had the last chance to avoid an unsafe situation, which is an additional factor in attributing "blame". anyway, stickers on the window are less effective... no one has any problem taking a blade to a window to remove a stubborn sticker, but it's a different story with that that nice paint job on the door.... *jeff* jeffrey e.f. friedl omron corporation, nagaokakyo (kyoto), japan jfriedl@omron.co.jp, jfriedl@cs.cmu.edu [ dod##4 n8xbk cbr250r ] visiting researcher to the mach project, carnegie mellon, pittsburgh 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104423">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104423" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : new duc 750ss doesn't, so i'll have to go back to carrying my lipstick : in my jacket pocket. life is _so_ hard. :-) my wife is looking for a jacket, and most of the men's styles she's tried don't fit too well. if they fit the shoulders and arms, they're too tight across the chest, or something like that. anyone have any suggestions? i'm assuming that the v-pilot, in addition to its handy storage facilities, is a pretty decent fit. is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women's motorcycling stuff? more importantly, does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any? i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually _fits_. hg makes the v-pilot jackets, mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose. i bought one of the last two they ever made. finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy. there is a lot of stuff out there that's fringed everywhere, made of fashion leather, made to fit men, etc. i don't know of a shop in your area. there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco/san jose area, but i don't recommend buying clothing mail order. too hard to tell if it'll fit. bates custom makes leathers. you might want to call them (they're in l.a.) and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in. large manufacturers like bmw and h.g. sell women's lines of clothing of decent quality, but fit is iffy. a while ago, noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing. don't know what they finally decided. beth [the one true beth] dixon bethd@netcom.com 1981 yamaha sr250 "excitable girl" dod #0384 1979 yamaha sr500 "spike the garage rat" fssnoc #1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama #631903 1963 ducati 250 monza -- restoration project 1kqspt = 1.8 "i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged." -- zz top 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104424">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104424" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the other day, it was raining cats and dogs, therefor i was going only to the speed limit, on nothing more, on my bike. this guy in his bmw was driving 1-2 meters behind me for 7-800 meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg, walked back to this car, he rolled down the window, and i told him he was a total idiot (and the reason why). did i do the right thing? it works for me. i avoid obscenities, and try to remain calm cool and collected, and try something like, "you almost just killed me, and i'm not moving until you apologize." or something more or less benign like that. i haven't been shot a single time, but i don't do it in texas, and i do only do it when there are plenty of witnesses around. steve l. moseley moseley@u.washington.edu microbiology sc-42 phone: (206) 543-2820 university of washington fax: (206) 543-8297 seattle, wa 98195 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104425">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104425" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hi folks! recently saw one post about kreme being a *bad idea*, but that was only one man's opinion. any one else have any experience with the stuff? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104432">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104432" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : no rear tires as small as 110/90. there are some fronts though. so get a 120/90 instead. is there anything that size? : any other recomendations? call the tire companies yourself and tell them what you have. they can make recomendations for you. that's your best bet. check a biker magazine (cycle world etc) for phone numbers. it's possible there are no other tires available though. erik astrup afm #422 dod #683 1993 cbr 900rr * 1990 cbr 600 * 1990 concours * 1989 ninja 250 "this one goes to eleven" - nigel tufnel, lead guitar, spinal tap 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104434">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104434" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle? and how much might it cost? i remember a thread on shipping. if someone saved the instructions on bike prep, please post 'em again, or email. step 1) join the ama (american motorcycling association). call 1-800-ama-join. step 2) after you become a member, they will ship your bike, uncrated to just about anywhere across the fruited plain for a few hundred bucks. i have used this service and have been continually pleased. they usually only take a few days for the whole thing, and you do not have to prepare the bike in any way (other than draining the gas). not to mention that it is about 25% of the normal shipping costs (by the time you crate a bike and ship it with another company, you can pay around $1000) nick coburn dod#6425 ama#679817 '88cbr1000 '89cbr600 coburnn@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104436">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104436" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 good advice, of course. thanks, hesh. time to go back for a zen refresher course. "imagine you are a lily, gently floating in a still, darkened pool." and some bdc in a volvo comes careening off the freeway and lands on top of you in said pool. you can't win. * jim franklin * jamesf@apple.com jim bob & sons * * 1987 cagiva alazzurra 650 | .signature remodling * * 1969 triumph 650 (slalom champ) | low price$ quality workman- * * dod #469 kotp(un) | ship * call today for free estimit 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104438">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104438" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm selling the following items... - a pair of hard saddle bags - easy installation - snap release feature with lock - brand is krusures - two oshi full face helmets take all for $275 these are comming off of my bike that i'm selling, maybe you could use the whole thing, bike and accessories. 1983 yamaha, vision 550 call medi @ work (415) 940-2306 home (408) 744-1169 | medi montaseri montasmm@ntmtv.com | | ...{ames.mcdcup}!ntmtv!montasmm | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104440">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104440" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 stolen from pasadena between 4:30 and 6:30 pm on 4/15. blue and white honda cbr900rr california plate kg cbr. serial number jh2sc281xpm100187, engine number 2101240. no turn signals or mirrors, lights taped over for track riders session at willow springs tomorrow. guess i'll miss it. :-((( help me find my baby!!! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104443">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104443" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can i resign bmw moa and get the remainder of my 5-year membership refunded? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104444">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104444" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 no anyone who is a "true" rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave, weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike, inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you're too low to be acknowleged. this you'll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am, however i still give them a wave, and ride secure in the knowlege that i'm a better persob than they are. persob, i kinda like that most people wave or return my wave when i'm on my harley. other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i'm on my duck. squids don't wave, or return waves ever, even to each other, from what i can tell. michael manning mmanning@icomsim.com (nextmail accepted.) `92 flstf fatboy `92 ducati 900ss 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104445">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104445" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 you could file a complaint for dangerous operation of a motor vehicle, and sign it. be willing to show up in court if it comes to it. no... you can do this? really? the other morning i went to do a lane change on the freeway and looked in my mirror, theer was a car there, but far enough behind. i looked again about 3-5 seconds later, car still in same position, i.e. not accelerating. i triple check with a head turn and decide i have plenty of room, so i do it, accelerating. i travel about 1/4 mile staying ~200 feet off teh bumper of the car ahead, and i do a casual mirror check. this guy is right on my tail, i mean you couldn't stick a hair between my tire & his fender. i keep looking in the mirror at him a,d slowly let off teh throttle. he stays there until i had lost about 15mph and then comes around me and cuts me off big time. i follow him for about 10 miles and finally get bored and turn back into work. i can file a complaint about this? and actually have the chance to have something done? how? who? where? * jim franklin * jamesf@apple.com jim bob & sons * * 1987 cagiva alazzurra 650 | .signature remodling * * 1969 triumph 650 (slalom champ) | low price$ quality workman- * * dod #469 kotp(un) | ship * call today for free estimit 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104449">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104449" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my 1979 honda cb750k with a slightly larger one? (i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one) just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm. clayton t. brooks _,,-^`--. from the heart cbrooks@ms.uky.edu 722 pot u o'ky .__,-' * \ of the blue cbrooks@ukma.bitnet lex. ky 40506 _/ ,/ grass and {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!cbrooks 606-257-6807 (__,-----------'' bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104451">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104451" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 so perhaps it is only *some* waterski bikes on which one countersteers... a sea doo is a boat. it turns by changing the angle of the duct behind the propeller. a waterski bike looks like a motorcycle but has a ski where each wheel should be. its handlebars are connected through a familiar looking steering head to the front ski. it handles like a motorcycle. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104453">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104453" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle? and how much might it cost? i shipped my k75s from portland oregon to daytona for this years bike week (i rode it back!). the company i used is the federal co's. you can reach them at 1-800-747-4100 ex 214. you either have to be a ama member, or maybe it is just a discount for ama, not sure. (call 1-800-ama-join to become an ama member) the shipping cost is based on the number of miles. it cost me about $500 for portland to orlando. $80 of that was insurance. all i had to do is ride it to the shipping dock and siphon the gas out. i think they can also pick up the bike from any business. the bike arrived on-time at orlando. all i had to do was adjust the mirrors and add gas. the bike was in perfect shape! --gary 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104455">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104455" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yes, my front tire is all but dead. it has minimal tread left, so it's time for a new one. any recommendations on a good tire in front? i'm riding on an almost brand new me55a in back. stick an me33 on the front. i've got a laser on the front of my gpz, and it has been a fantastic tire. best front tire i've ever had. | graeme weir dod #9191 fido 1:255/14.4 c70a@unb.ca | | university of new brunswick, fredericton, nb, canada | | damn the box jockeys! full speed ahead! | | live to flame -- flame to live | | '84 gpz 1100, '76 kz900, '76 kz750, '91 trek 8000 mtb | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104460">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104460" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v-max, pls kindly comment on its handling . the v-max goes in a strait line like shit shrough a goose. in the corners, i'd rather ride a honda 305 dream. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104463">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104463" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 (sorry, i lost the attributions. |in most areas, drivers are required to show proof of financial |responsibility, which usually means insurance. required how? when they get pulled over? most drivers, bellyaching on the net aside, don't get pulled over and checked. the laws are enforceable only after the fact, in which case often somebody is out a lot of money. don't you have any requirement for yearly plate stickers in the us???? in ontario and manitoba for sure and the other provinces (i think) you have to show proof of insurnace when you renew your plate (ie get a new sticker). yes. unfortunately, there is also the concept that the owner of a car is not responsible for the actions of any (authorized) user of the car. that's one of the biggest arguments against photo-radar ticketing you also get to pay all outstanding tickets. they even have cross province agreements (at least between ontario and quebec) so that unpaid tickets in the other province are on record. no having an up to date sticker is a) bad trouble with that is, you then have no recourse if a mis-issued ticket or a clerical error on a computer follow you around. the city of chicago (the informal motto of which being "the city the works") issues dozens of parking tickets each year to people who have never set foot (or tire) in the city. jonathan e. quist jeq@lachman.com lachman technology, incorporated dod #094, kotpp, kotcf '71 cl450-k4 "gleep" naperville, il __ there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, \/ followed by the words "daddy! yay!" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104464">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104464" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 saw this in today's newspaper: fortune-guzzler barred from bars barnstaple, england/reuter a motorcyclist said to have drunk away a $290,000 insurance payment in less than 10 years was banned wednesday from every pub in england and wales. david roberts, 29, had been awarded the cash in compensation for losing a leg in a motorcycle accident. he spent virtually all of it on cider, a court in barnstaple in southwest england was told. judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars in england and wales for 12 months and put on two years' probation after he started a brawl in a pub. bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104465">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104465" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've seen solar battery boosters, and they seem to come without any guarantee. on the other hand, i've heard that some people use them with success, although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person. have you tried one? what was your experience? how did you use it (occasional charging, long-term leave-it-for-weeks, etc.)? -- robert kennedy robert kennedy (415) 723-4532 (office) robert@cs.stanford.edu (415) 322-7367 (home voice) computer science dept., stanford university (415) 322-7329 (home tty) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104469">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104469" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 lets get this "no fault" stuff straight, i lived in nj when nf started, my rates went up, alot. moved to pa and my rates went down alot, the nf came to pa and it was a different story. if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it ? give up ? yours. only if you have a weeny insurance company. unless it's some stupid pa law. i know that if some jerk hits me while i'm in a parking lot, if my insruance company doesn't sue his (or his doesn't immediately say, 'yes, it's his fault') i'll sure him myself and tell my insurance company to go to hell if they raise my rates. andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104470">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104470" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good - even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps, putting one (about a5 size) on each window of the cage. an apartment complex where i used to live tried this, only they put the thing over the driver's window, "so they couldn't miss it." a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night, her vision blocked by the sticker. i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt. she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place. that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court, before they found her liable for $serious. be careful about putting stickers on cages' windows. yeah, make darn sure you cover all the glass, so the driver can't reasonably expect to be able to drive with the things on the car. jonathan e. quist jeq@lachman.com lachman technology, incorporated dod #094, kotpp, kotcf '71 cl450-k4 "gleep" naperville, il __ there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, \/ followed by the words "daddy! yay!" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104473">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104473" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i moved to sweden and i have to take all the tests again (written and road) even though i had a valid us license for 12 some years... of course i became a resident, and could drive on my us license until i became resident. don't know about italy, it's different in the eec. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104475">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104475" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 request for opinions: which is better - a one-piece aerostitch or a two-piece aerostitch? we're looking for more than "well, the 2-pc is more versatile, but the 1-pc is better protection,..." thanks in advance, i would be scared of trying to fit the one piece. when i got my two piece, i got the jacket in 42 and the pants in 40 (just due to my manly-man of an athletic build, kind of thing) no laughing, please. seriously, i'm not trim and the 42 pants would have been way too big. also, i don't think the 1 piece does provide better protection. if i'm wrong, i'll be swiftly if ever so gently correct by the net.pansies.of.knowledge (as they like to call themselves). jack waters ii dod#1919 ~ i don't fear the thief in the night. its the one that comes in the ~ ~ afternoon, when i'm still asleep, that i worry about. ~ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104477">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104477" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling? a couple of hours after you "feel" sober, or what? should i just work with "if i drink tonight, i don't ride until tomorrow"? i generally find that after two or three decent hits of nitrous, my riding improves enormously. drinking is silly, your breath smells, it costs lots of money and the pigs can detect it with their machines. no2 works for me, try it. nick (the like wow, um, far out, er, biker) dod 1069 concise um errr.... m'like um, er lud. ___ ___ ___ ___ {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} nick pettefar, contractor@large. ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated at bnr, ___ ___ ___ ___ maidenhead, the united kingdom. |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" ` ' ' ` .` ' ' ` pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 _ _ . _ __ . |_______| [_______| _:_ |___| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104478">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104478" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 after both oil changes, the oil level was at the top mark in the window on the lower right side of the motor, but i've been noticing that the oil level seen in the window gradually decreases over the miles. i'm always checking the window with the bike on level ground and after it has sat idle for awhile, so the oil has a chance to drain back into the pan. the bike isn't leaking oil any place, and i don't see any smoke coming out of the exhaust. my owner's manual says the amount of oil corresponding to the high and low marks in the oil level window is approx. .5 quart. it looks like my bike has been using about .25 quarts/1000 miles. the owner's manual also gives a figure for max. oil consumption of about .08oz/mile or .15l/100km. my question is whether the degree of "oil consumption" i'm seeing on my bike is normal? have any other k75 owners seen their oil level gradually and consistently go down? should i take the bike in for work? i'm asking local guys also, to get as many data points as i it's normal for the bmw k bikes to use a little oil in the first few thousand miles. i don't know why. i've had three new k bikes, and all three used a bit of oil when new - max maybe .4 quart in first 1000 miles; this soon quits and by the time i had 10,000 miles on them the oil consumption was about zero. i've been told that the harder you run the bike (within reason) the sooner it stops using any oil. charlie smith charlie@elektro.cmhnet.org kotdohl kotwitdodl 1kspi=22.85 dod #0709 doh #0000000004 & ama, moa, ra, buckey beemers, bk ohio v bmw k1100-lt, r80-gs/pd, r27, triumph tr6 columbus, ohio usa 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104479">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104479" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello world of motorcyles lovers/soon-to-be-lovers! i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes! we discuss anything and everything. if you are interested in joining, drop me a line. since it really isn't a 'list', what we do is if you have a post, you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone. c'mon...join and enjoy! huh? did this guy just invent wreck.motorcycles? curious minds want to know. charlie smith charlie@elektro.cmhnet.org kotdohl kotwitdodl 1kspi=22.85 dod #0709 doh #0000000004 & ama, moa, ra, buckey beemers, bk ohio v bmw k1100-lt, r80-gs/pd, r27, triumph tr6 columbus, ohio usa 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104480">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104480" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello world of motorcyles lovers/soon-to-be-lovers! i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes! we discuss anything and everything. if you are interested in joining, drop me a line. since it really isn't a 'list', what we do is if you have a post, you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone. c'mon...join and enjoy! on second thought, maybe he didn't invent wreck.moto - he's trying a round about way to figure out the dod theme song. one faq, coming right up! charlie smith, dod #0709, doh #0000000004, 1kspt=22.85 o--------------------------------------------------------------o there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, followed by the words "daddy! why am i locked outside?" o--------------------------------------------------------------o 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104485">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104485" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 okay dod'ers, here's a goddamn mystery for ya ! the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent. i'm fairly sure it was there before the event. in fact, the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact, with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously. okay all you engineering types, how the f**k do you explain this ? how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole (in alloy) without damaging the thread in the hole ? you can't knock a threaded stud out from its hole without destroying the threads. also part of the stud would still be in the hole. therefore the stud was *not* in the hole before you touched something down on that side of the bike. ....dr. doom 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104487">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104487" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 2) what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance? i turn 18 in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now, and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure (i live in washington dc if that makes a difference) it depends on the bike. once you've found a bike you're interested in, call some insurance companies for rates. some bikes are much cheaper to insure than you might think (my ex-500 only costs me $127/year in st. louis; i'm 27) 3) any recommendations on what i should buy/where i should look for it? for a first bike, i recommend 500cc's or less. and a bike short enough to get both feet on the ground when you stop. the one piece of advice everyone will give you is to take a motorcycle safety foundation rider's course. see a dealer for details. in some states, completion of such a course can give you a break on insurance. it will also teach you to ride properly from the beginning, so you won't learn any bad habits. good luck. riding a motorcycle is the most fun you can have, naked or otherwise. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104488">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104488" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : unless... some insurance agent offers a multi-vehicle discount. they : do this all the time for cars, assuming that you're only capable of progressive offers multi-vehicle discounts. good prices too imho. tony jones (ant@cray.com, ..!uunet!cray!ant) cmcs codegeneration group, software division cray research inc, 655f lone oak drive, eagan, mn 55121 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104490">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104490" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 that's okay, he's perfectly welcome to come to scotland you know ;-) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104497">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104497" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu () says: mike terry asks: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? no mike. it is imposible due to the shaft effect. the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground. dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104499">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104499" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? no, it's not possible to countersteer either. (for the humor impared :{p pphhhhhtttttt!) '86 concours.....sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster.....'ol sport-for sale dod # 055 '79 sr500.....spike, the garage rat ama #524245 queued for an m900!! fssnoc #1843 two jousts and a gather, *big fun!* 1kspt=17.28% ma bell (408) 764-5874 cool as a rule, but sometimes... e-mail txd@able.mkt.3com.com (h. lewis) disclaimer: 3com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104500">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104500" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 for sale 1988 honda cbr600 (hurricane). i bought the bike at the end of last summer and although i love it, the bills are forcing me to part with it. the bike has a little more than 6000 miles on it and runs very strong. it is in nead of a tune-up and possibly break pads but the rubber is good. i am also tossing in a tankbag and a kiwi helmet. asking $3000.00 or best offer. add hits newspaper 04-20-93 and micronews 04-23-93. interested parties can call 206-635-2006 during the day and 889-1510 in the evenings no later than 11:00pm. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104503">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104503" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there have been a *lot* of posts lately about "i wanna buy my first bike - is a gsxr/zx/cbr/fzr a good bike to learn on?" etc. i think i'm going to put together a faq on buying a new bike. ravi used to post one all the time. bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104506">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104506" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 thanks to all who responded. the three items (electric vest, aerostitch suit, and scarf) are all spoken for. gary wasserman "a completely irrational attraction to bmw bikes" interleaf, inc. prospect place, 9 hillside ave, waltham, ma 02154 grw@ileaf.com 617-290-4990x3423 fax 617-290-4970 dod#0216 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104508">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104508" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 with regards to the pub brawl, he might have a history of such things. just because he was a biker doesn't make him out to be a reasonable person. even the dod might object to him joining, who knows? if he had a history of such things, why was it not mentioned in the article, and why did they present the irrelevant detail of where he got his drinking money from? i can't say exactly who is at fault here, but from where i sit is looks like we're seeing the results either of the law going way out of hand or of shoddy journalism. if the law wants to attach strings to how you spend a settlement, they should put the money in trust. they don't, so i would assume it's perfectly legitimate to drink it away, though i wouldn't spend it that way myself. -- david karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104512">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104512" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 & can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models & really mean. & example: what means the c, the b and the r in honda cbr. - or the v, s, g, l & and p in suzuki vs750glp honda: a "v" designates a v engine street bike. "vf" for v-4, "vt" for v-twin. "cb" is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline 4-cylinder engine. "r" used to mean race bike, but is now also used to mean sport bike. "cl" was for the old steet scramblers-street bikes with high pipes "cm" was a "custom" street bike "cr" is dirt only two strokes "xl" is dual purpose bike "xr" was dirt only four stroke, but now can be a dual purpose bike if it has an "l" as a suffix. "gl" is a touring bike frank ball 1ur-m frankb@sad.hp.com (707) 794-4168 work, hewlett packard (707) 794-3844 fax, (707) 538-3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175, xt350, seca 750, '62 f-100, pl510 rohnert park ca 94928-4999 kc6wug, law, ama, dod #7566, i'm the nra. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104513">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104513" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, maven@mavenry.altcit.eskimo.com (norman hamer) says: if i don't end up replacing it in the real near future, would i do better to wear my (totally nondamaged) 3/4 face dot-rated cheapie which doesn't fit as well or keep out the wind as well, or wearing the shoei rf-200 which is a lot more comfortable, keeps the wind out better, is quieter... but might have some minor damage? == wear the rf200. even after a few drops & paint chips, it is far better than no helmet or a poorly fitting one. i've had many scratches & bangs which have been repaired plus i'm still confident of the protection the helmet will continue to give me. only when you actually see depressions or actual cracks (using a magnifying glass) should you consider replacement. this is not good advice. a couple of years i was involved in a low-speed getoff in which i landed on my back on the pavement. my head (helmeted) hit the pavement with a "clunk", leaving a couple of dings and chips in the paint at the point of impact, but no other visible damage. i called the helmet manufacturer and inquired about damage. they said that the way a fiberglass shell works is to first give, then delaminate, then crack. this is the way fiberglass serves to spread the force of the impact over a wider area. after the fiberglass has done its thing, the crushable foam liner takes care of absorbing (hopefully) the remaining impact force. they told me that the second stage of fiberglass functionality (delamination of the glass/resin layers) can occur with no visible signs, either inside or outside of the helmet. they suggested that i send them the helmet and they would inspect it (including x-raying). i did so. they sent back the helmet with a letter stating that that they could find no damage that would compromise the ability of the helmet to provide maximum protection. (i suspect that this letter would eliminate their being able to claim prior damage to the helmet in the event i were to sue them.) the bottom line, though, is that it appears that a helmets integrity can be compromised with no visible signs. the only way to know for sure is to send it back and have it inspected. note that some helmet manufacturers provide inspections services and some do not. another point to consider when purchasing a lid. ken franklin they say there's a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it's better but i say it ain't gwrra i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod #0126 the sinners are lots more fun, y'know only the good die young 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104514">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104514" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> what does "dwi" stand for ? i thought it was "dui" for driving under |>influence, so here what does w stand for ? |driving while intoxicated. actually, i beleive "dwi" normally means "driving while impaired" rather than "intoxicated", at least it does in the states i've lived in... |this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her |case by claiming to be stoned on pot, not intoxicated on liquor! one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor - drugs, not enough sleep, being a total moron :-), all can impair someone etc... i'm surprised this got her off the hook... perhaps dwi in lousiana *is* confined to liquor? lets just say it is dui here now! ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... * god is real, unless declared integer. * * i came, i saw, i deleted all your files. * * black holes are where god is dividing by zero. * * the world will end in 5 minutes. please log out. * * earth is 98% full.... please delete anyone you can. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104516">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104516" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [squid deleted] 5. helment laws vary from state to state. in my state (louisiana) it is the law. i personaly, would not go 2 feet on a bike without one law or no law. a helment will save your life. i'll go 2 feet, but i draw the line at 3. i'll see your 3 and raise you 4. doug rinckes drinckes@tssc.wlg.nec.co.jp new zealand tssc ltd 1976 bmw r100s 1960 bmw r60 1940 indian 741a 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104519">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104519" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 several years ago, while driving a cage, a dog darted out at a quiet intersection right in front of me but there was enough distance between us so i didn't have to slow down. however, a 2nd dog suddenly appeared and collided with my right front bumper and the force of the impact was enough to kill that scottish terrier. apparently, it was following the 1st dog. henceforth, if a dog decides to cross the street, keep an eye out for a 2nd dog as many dogs like to travel in pairs or packs. i've yet to experience a dog chasing me on my black gl1200i which has a pretty loud oem horn (not as good as fiamms, but good enuff) but the bike is large and heavy enough to run right over one of the smaller nippers while the larger ones would have trouble getting my leg between the saddlebags and engine guards. i'd def feel more vulnerable on my '68 trump as that'd be easier leg chewing target for those mongrels. if there's a persistent dog running after bikers despite complaints to the owner i wouldn't be adverse to running over it with my truck as a dogs life isn't worth much imho compared to a child riding a bike who gets knocked to the ground by said dog and dies from a head injury. any dog in the neighborhood that's vicious or a public menace running about unleashed is fair game as road kill candidate. graeme harrison (gharriso@hpcc01.corp.hp.com) dod#649 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104520">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104520" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 help! i've got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle. this is great! unfortunately, she needs at most a 28" seat. this is not great. so far, the only thing we've found was an old and unhappy-looking kz440. so, it's time to tap the collective memory of all the denizens out there. anybody know of models (old models and used bikes are not a problem) with a 28" or lower seat? and, since she has to make this difficult ( 8-) ), she would prefer not to end up with a cruiser. so there's bonus points for listing tiny standards. i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago. did anybody keep that list? thanks! gregory bean dod #580 bean@ncar.ucar.edu "in fact, everything's got that big reverb sound..." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104521">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104521" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hi, i have an 82 cb750 custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on. now when i put it back together again, it wouldn't idle at all. it was only running on 2-3 cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side. the exhaust is 4-2 mac. i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won't idle. i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up. i checked the timing, it was fine, so i advanced it a little and that didn't help. i assume the carbs need to be synched. can i buy a kit and do this myself? if so, what kit is the best for the price. any other suggestions? i dont think its the carbs that are out, i would suspect that the cam timing is out, & as you say that you had the head off, that would make sense to me, just my 0.02 emu's worth. ian deeley "...whatever you do will be school of engineering | | insignificant, but its very university of sussex --=ooo=-- important that you do it.." england. anon 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104522">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104522" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 --in a previous article, exb0405@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au () says: -->okay dod'ers, here's a goddamn mystery for ya ! -->today i was turning a 90 degree corner just like on any other day, but there -->was a slight difference- a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension -->to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very -->tangible "thunk". i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage. --== some deleted -->barry manor dod# 620 confused accidental peg-scraper --check the bottom of your pipes barry -- suspect that is what may --have hit. i did the same a few years past & thought it was the --peg but found the bottom of my pipe has made contact & showed a --good sized dent & scratch. -- believe you'd feel the suddent change on your foot if the peg --had bumped. as for the piece missing -- contribute that to --vibration loss. yep, the same thing happened to me on my old honda 200 twinstar. * mike maser | dod#= 0536 | squid rating: 5.333333333333333 * * 9235 pinetree rd. |----------------------------------------------* * sidney, b.c., can. | hopalonga twinfart yuka-yuka excess 400 * * v8l-1j1 | wish list: tridump, mucho guzler, burley * * home (604) 656-6131 | thumpison, or bimotamoeba * * work (604) 721-7297 |*********************************************** * mmaser@sirius.uvic.ca |joke of the month: what did the gay say to the* * university of victoria | indian chief ? * * news: rec.motorcycles | answer: can i bum a couple bucks ? * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104524">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104524" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project. essentially i need any/all movies that use motos in any substantial capacity (ie; fallen angles, t2, h-d & the marlboro man, raising arizona, etc). any help you fellow r.m'ers could give me would be much `preciated. (btw, a summary of bike(s) or plot is helpful but not necessary) c eric sundheim csundh30@ursa.calvin.edu grandrapids, mi, usa `90 hondo vfr750f dod# 1138 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104526">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104526" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello everyone. i'm new to motorcycles so no flames please. i don't have my bike yet so i need a few pieces of information: 1) i only have about $1200-1300 to work with, so that would have to cover everything (bike, helmet, anything else that i'm too ignorant to know i need to buy) 2) what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance? i turn 18 in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now, and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure (i live in washington dc if that makes a difference) 3) any recommendations on what i should buy/where i should look for it? 4) in dc, as i imagine it is in every other state (ok, ok, we're not a state - we're not bitter ;)), you take the written test first and then get a learners permit. however, i'm wondering how one goes about learning to ride the bike proficiently enough so as to a) get a liscence and b) not kill oneself. i don't know anyone with a bike who could teach me, and the most advice i've heard is either "do you live near a field" or "do you have a friend with a pickup truck", the answers to both of which are no. do i just ride around my neighborhood and hope for the best? i kind of live in a residential area but it's not suburbs. it's still the big city and i'm about a mile from downtown so that doesn't seem too viable. any stories on how you all learned? thanks for any replies in advance. -greg humphreys :wq meant to do that. (damn autoindent) greg humphreys | "this must be thursday. i never national institutes of health| could get the hang of thursdays." gregh@alw.nih.gov | (301) 402-1817 | -arthur dent 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104528">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104528" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> >>rolls-royce owned by a non-british firm? |> >>ye gods, that would be the end of civilization as we know it. |> > why not? ford owns aston-martin and jaguar, general motors owns lotus |> >and vauxhall. rover is only owned 20% by honda. |> yes, it's a minor blasphemy that u.s. companies would on the likes of a.m., |> jaguar, or (sob) lotus. it's outright sacrilege for rr to have non-british |> ownership. it's a fundamental thing i think there is a legal clause in the rr name, regardless of who owns it it must be a british company/owner - i.e. ba can sell the company but not the name. kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104531">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104531" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 an apartment complex where i used to live tried this, only they put the thing over the driver's window, "so they couldn't miss it." a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night, her vision blocked by the sticker. i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt. she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place. that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court, before they found her liable for $serious. seems to me that the driver was driving the vehicle visually impaired. isn't that like not scraping ice and snow off your windshield and such? say, that's another thing that bugs me. why don't people scrape their damn windows? i've seen people driving cars with *barely* the driver's half of the windshield cleared. nothing else cleared. this seems pretty stupid and isn't there something (probably varies state to state) that says a certain percentage of the glass must be clear? oh, well. brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st. louis, mo c09615bt @ wuvmd.wustl.edu c09615bt @ wuvmd.bitnet 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104540">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104540" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 one of those "morning, just getting the coffee in me" thoughts: waving at other bikers makes more sense than just "hey, how's it going, nice to meet you on the road, have a good ride" 1) if you're watching for other bikes to wave to, it means your attention is on the road, where it should be, and you're more likely to see cages. 2) it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you're in a cage. this is a good thing. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104541">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104541" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 kevinh, on the tue, 20 apr 1993 13:23:01 gmt wibbled: : |> >>rolls-royce owned by a non-british firm? : |> >>ye gods, that would be the end of civilization as we know it. : |> > why not? ford owns aston-martin and jaguar, general motors owns lotus : |> >and vauxhall. rover is only owned 20% by honda. : |> yes, it's a minor blasphemy that u.s. companies would ?? on the likes of a.m., : |> jaguar, or (sob) lotus. it's outright sacrilege for rr to have non-british : |> ownership. it's a fundamental thing : i think there is a legal clause in the rr name, regardless of who owns it : it must be a british company/owner - i.e. ba can sell the company but not : the name. : kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch i don't believe that ba have anything to do with rr. it's a seperate company from the rr aero-engine company. i think that the government own a stake. unfortunately they owned a stake of jaguar too, until they decided to make a quick buck and sold it to ford. bastards. this is definitely the ultimate arthur-daley government. nick (the cynical biker) dod 1069 concise oxford leaky gearbox m'lud. nick pettefar, contractor@large. /~~~\ "teneo tuus intervallum" cuurrently incarcerated at bnr, {-o^o-} npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" maidenhead, the united kingdom. \ o / pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104546">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104546" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this. i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops. and please don't say get a vehicle code, go to your local station, or obvious things like that. my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real, live in the flesh, cop. if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop, etc. don't bother writing in. thanks. i just gotta ask... what are these questions you want to ask an active cop? working on your dod qualfications? b-) ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... * god is real, unless declared integer. * * i came, i saw, i deleted all your files. * * black holes are where god is dividing by zero. * * the world will end in 5 minutes. please log out. * * earth is 98% full.... please delete anyone you can. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104547">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104547" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 55e -> i-81/i-66e. after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania, new york?, and back to chicago (by 6/6). suggestions if you do make it into new york state, the palisades interstate parkway is a pleasant ride (beautiful scenery, good road surface, minimal traffic). you may also want to take a sidetrip along seven lakes drive just off the parkway for the same reasons plus the road sweeps up and down along the hills with sweeping turns under old forest canopy. '\ mitch corrado _\______ bell communications research / dec \======== mdc2@panther.tnds.bellcore.com ____|___wreck__\_____ (908)699-4128 / ___________________ \ \/ _===============_ \/ mad vax "-===============-" -the "code" warrior- 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104550">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104550" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've recently become father of twins! i don't think i can afford to keep 2 bikes and 2 babies. both babies are staying, so 1 of the harleys is going. 1988 883 xlhd ~4000 mi. (hey, it was my wife's bike :-) well that was pretty uncalled for. (no smile) is our harley manhood feeling challenged? jeff derienzo "this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday." - temple of the dog sea-bass sears --> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu --> dod#516 <-- |stanley, id.| '79 yamaha xs750f -- '77 bmw r100s -- '85 toyota 4runner -- | nyc, ny. | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104551">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104551" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 could someone mail me the archive location of the msf program (for an ibm, right?)? "this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday." - temple of the dog sea-bass sears --> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu --> dod#516 <-- |stanley, id.| '79 yamaha xs750f -- '77 bmw r100s -- '85 toyota 4runner -- | nyc, ny. | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104552">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104552" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 allowed (yes, there is a god). no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars. yeah, right! the 20 or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a 1 block main street were not citing anyone. the street was filled with empty cans at least 2 feet deep in the gutter. the crowd was raisin' hell - tittie shows everywhere. can you say party? and still we wonder why they stereotype us... whacha mean 'we'...ifin they (whom ever 'they' are) want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies - i like that stereotype. if you were refering 'stereotype' to infer a negative - you noticed we didn't rape, pillage, or burn down the town. we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town. me thinks the town likes us. least they said so. lynn hall - nos bros 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104553">
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 you can't make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony. i'm not sure that's true. let me rephrase; "you can file a complaint which will bring the person into court." as i understand it, a "citizens arrest" does not have to be the physical detention of the person. better now? john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104555">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104555" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu () says: mike terry asks: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? no mike. it is imposible due to the shaft effect. the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground. this is true as evinced by the popularity of shaft-drive drag bikes. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104556">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104556" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was posting to alt.locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle. i got several responses referring to the cobra lock (described below). has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area? it is available through some dealerships, who in turn have to back order it from the manufacturer directly. each one is made to order, at least if you get a nonstandard length (standard is 5', i believe). any other feedback from someone who has used this? see below incidentally, the best lock i've found for bikes is the cobra lock. it's a cable which is shrouded by an articulated, hardened steel sleeve. the lock itself is cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints at the articulation points so the chain can be adjusted (like handcuffs). you can't get any leverage on the lock to break it open and the cylinder is well-protected. i wouldn't want to cut one of these without a torch and/or a vice and heavy duty cutting wheel. i have a 6' long cobralinks lock that i used to use for my harley (she doesn't get out much anymore, so i don't use the lock that often anymore). it is made of 3/4" articulated steel shells covering seven strands of steel cable. it is probably enough to stop all the joyriders, but, unfortunately, professionals can open it rather easily: 1) freeze a link. 2) break frozen link with your favorite method (hammers work well). 3) snip through the steel cables (which, i have on authority, are frightfully thin) with a set of boltcutters. for the same money, you can get a kryptonite cable lock, which is anywhere from 1/2" to 7/8" thick steel cable (looks like steel rope), shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike's finish, and has a barrel-type locking mechanism. i don't know if it's adjustable, but my source says it's more difficult to pick than most locks, and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt-cutter jaws rather than shear (5/8" model). all bets are off if the thief has a die grinder with a cutoff wheel. even the most durable locks tested yield to this tool in less than one minute. fyi, i'll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck. chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104558">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104558" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 you may find it useful. (this is a repost. the original sender is at the bottom.) -------------------cut here-------------------------------------------------- article 39994 of rec.motorcycles: path: scrumpy!bnrgate!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!hermes.chpc.utexas.edu!cs.ute exas.edu!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!iggy.gw.vitalink.com!widener!eff!ibmpc cug!pipex!unipalm!uknet!cf-cm!cybaswan!eeharvey newsgroups: rec.motorcycles message-id: <861@cybaswan.uucp> references: <1992jul14.165538.9789@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> lines: 84 these are the figures from the performance bikes lock test, taken without permission of course. the price is for comparison. all the cable locks have some sort of armour, the chain locks are padlock and chain. each lock was tested for a maximum of ten minutes (600 secs) for each test: bj bottle jack cd cutting disc bc bolt croppers gas gas flame the table should really be split into immoblisers (for-a-while) and lock-to-somethings (for-a-short-while) to make comparisons. type weight bj cd bc gas total price (kg) (sec) (sec) (sec) (sec) (sec) (pounds) 3-arm folding .8 53 5 13 18 89 26 cyclelok bar abus steel-o- cable 1.4 103 4 20 26 153 54 oxford cable 2.0 360 4 32 82 478 38 abus diskus chain 2.8 600 7 40 26 675 77 6-arm folding 1.8 44 10 600 22 676 51 cyclelok bar abus extra u-lock 1.2 600 10 120 52 782 44 cobra cable 6.0(!) 382 10 600 22 1014 150 (6ft) abus closed chain 4.0 600 11 600 33 1244 100 kryptonite u-lock 2.5 600 22 600 27 1249 100 oxford u-lock 2.0 600 7 600 49 1256 38 disclock disc .7 n/a 44 n/a 38 1282 43 abus 58hb u-lock 2.5 600 26 600 64 1290 100 mini block disc .65 n/a 51 n/a 84 1335 50 pretty depressing reading. i think a good lock and some common sense about where and when you park your bike is the only answer. i've spent all my spare time over the last two weeks landscaping (trashing) the garden of my (and two friends with bikes) new house to accommodate our three bikes in relative security (never underestimate how much room a bike requires to manouver in a walled area :( ). anyway, since the weekend there are only two bikes :( and no, he didn't use his abus closed shackle lock, it was too much hassle to take with him when visiting his parents. a minimum wait of 8 weeks (if they don't decide to investigate) for the insurance company to make an offer and for the real haggling to begin. abus are a german company and it would seem not well represented in the us but very common in the uk. the uk distributor, given in the above article is: michael brandon ltd, 15/17 oliver crescent, roxburgh td9 9bj. tel. 0450 73333 the uk distributors for the other locks can also given if required. don't lose it ian harvey, university college swansea too old to rock'n'roll eeharvey@uk.ac.swan.pyr too young to die '79 gs750e 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104559">
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 so how do i steer when my hands aren't on the bars? (open budweiser in left hand, camel cigarette in the right, no feet allowed.) if i lean, and the bike turns, am i countersteering? is countersteering like benchracing only with a taller seat, so your feet aren't on the floor? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104565">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104565" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ok, hold on a second and clarify something for me: what does "dwi" stand for ? i thought it was "dui" for driving under influence, so here what does w stand for ? driving while intoxicated. this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot, not intoxicated on liquor! here it's driving while impaired. that about covers everything. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104566">
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 i'm thinking of buying a motorcycle. whenever i tell people this i usually get an answer like "why do you want to do that my brother, sister, cousin knows somebody who had a motorcycle and now they are brain dead as a result of an accident?" so the question i have is "how dangerous is riding"? it's exactly as dangerous as it looks. you're hard to see and have little protection. keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits, keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there. we deal with it because it's fun, but staying alive takes a conscious effort. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104567">
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 well, it looks like i'm f*cked for insurance. i had a dwi in 91 and for the beemer, as a rec. vehicle, it'll cost me almost $1200 bucks to insure/year. now what do i do? sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus. that way you can keep drinking which seems to be where your priorities lay. i expect that enough of us on this list have lost friends because of driving drunks that our collective sympathy will be somewhat muted. look, guy, i doubt anyone here approves of drunk driving, but if he's been caught and convicted and punished maybe you ought to lighten up? i mean, it isn't like most of us haven't had a few and then ridden or driven home. *we* just didn't get caught. and i can speak for myself and say it will *never* happen again, but that is beside the point. in answer to the original poster: i'd insure whatever vehicle is cheapest, and can get you to and from work, and suffer through it for a few years, til your rates drop. and *don't* drink and drive. i had one friend killed by a drunk, and i was rear ended by one, totaling my bike (bent frame), and only failing to kill me because i had an eye on my mirror while i waited at the stoplight. regards, charles dod0.001 within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --unknown net.person 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104569">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104569" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 on 19 apr 93 21:48:42 gmt, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu said: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? yes, but the _rear_ wheel comes off the ground, not the front. see, it just hops into the air! figure. john stafford sure you can do wheelies with a shaft drive bike. i had a bmw r100rs that was a wheelie monster! of course it didn't have the initial power burst to just twist it into the air - i had to pop the clutch. i also had to replace front fork seals a few times as well. the fairing is a bit heavy to be slamming down onto those little stantion tubes all the time. but let me give you fair warning: i trashed the ring/pinion gear in the final drive of my k75 (i assume) doing wheelies. and this was no cheap fix either!! there is some kind of "slip" device in the shaft to prevent it from breaking. unfortunately, it didn't save the gears! on the topic of wheelies, the other day i saw a kid on a big hurricane do a "stoppy"(?), or rear wheelie. man, he had the rear end on this bike up about 2 feet off the ground at a traffic light. i don't recommend these activities anymore (now that i'm an "old guy" with kids of my own) but it looked damn impressive!! if you can't keep both tires on the ground, at least have 'em pointed in that direction! :-) b**2 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104571">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104571" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |now now keith, just calm down. what are you some prohibitionist prick? the |point of andrew infante's posting was obvious to solicit suggestions pertaining |to the cost of insurance and the like. i don't care if you are madd or sadd or |whatever; keep it to yourself, we'd all appreciate that. well, simply put, drinking is irrelavent. driving drunk is indefensable and unforgivable. there is a large differnece. but, then, with an attitude like yours, i expect you'll be dead soon. i just hope you don't take a human being out with you. dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104574">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104574" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> one of those "morning, just getting the coffee in me" thoughts: |> waving at other bikers makes more sense than just "hey, how's it going, |> nice to meet you on the road, have a good ride" |> 1) if you're watching for other bikes to wave to, it means your attention |> is on the road, where it should be, and you're more likely to see cages. |> 2) it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when |> you're in a cage. this is a good thing. the down side is that when i'm in my cage, i have on numerous occasions slammed my hand into the rolled up window in an effort to wave at a passing biker. ow. = the beav |mike beavington|bellnorthernresearch ottawa,ont,canada| dod:9733= = seca 400->seca 400->rz350->seca750->suzuki550->seca650turbo->v65sabre = = (-> 1994 gts1000 ...can't afford the '93) | mbeaving@bnr.ca = = parking spaces? we don't need no steenkin' parking spaces! = 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104576">
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 what, a dog weighs 150lb maybe, at max? you can't handle it? you have, i presume, thumbs? grapple with it and tear it's head off! sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, we have *all* the advantages. regards, charles dod0.001 professionals who train guard dogs, when polled, gave themselves a 1 in 4 chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed. a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with. an untrained mutt may be another story. obmoto: a local dog used to chase me all the time. really annoying. i finally started stopping every time he'd chase me. he didn't know what to do then and would usually just slink off the road. after a couple weeks of this he stopped chasing me altogether. he would still chase cars or other bikes, though. i think he recognized me when i went by ;-). - mike heathman vx800 - briar rose dod #0284 - - lilly research t500 - titan (awaiting resurrection) - - indianapolis, in "where am i to go, now that i've gone too far? - 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104577">
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 posted for a friend: looking for tires, dimensions 14" x 3.25" or 3.35" also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes. also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with. call scott at 801-583-1354 or email me. i saw fops by the thousand sew themselves together round the lloyds building. disclaimer: my writings have nothing to do with my employer. keep it that way. pete ashdown pashdown@slack.sim.es.com salt lake city, utah 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104578">
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 motorcycle safety foundation riding course (a must!) $140 wow! courses in georgia are much cheaper. $85 for both. in maryland, they were $25 each when i learned to ride 3 years ago. now, it's $125 (!) for the beginner riders' course and $60 for the experienced riders' course (which, admittedly, takes only about half the time ). -d- 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104582">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104582" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ds>from: viking@iastate.edu (dan sorenson) ds>>riding up the hill leading to my ds>>house, i encountered a liver-and-white springer spaniel (no relation to ds>>the springer softail, or the springer spagthorpe, a close relation to ds>>the spagthorpe viking). ds> i must have missed the article on the spagthorpe viking. was ds>that the one with the little illuminated dragon's head on the front ds>fender, a style later copied by indian, and the round side covers? no. not at all. the viking was a trick little unit made way back when (forties? fifties?) when spag was trying to make a go of it in racing. the first iteration (the springer) was a boxer twin, very similar to max friz's famous design, but with an overhead "point cam" (see below for more on the valvetrain). the problem was that the thing had no ground clearance whatsoever. the solution was to curve the cylinder bores, so that the ground clearance was substantially increased: ==@== <-springer motor (front) viking motor (front) -> \=@=/ this is roughly the idea, except that the bores were gradually curved around a radius, as the pistons were loath to make a sharp-angled turn in the middle of their stroke. the engine also had curved connecting rods to accomodate the stroke. the engine stuck out so far because of its revolutionary (and still unique) overhead cam system. through the use of clever valve timing and and extrordinarily trick valve linkage, only a single cam lobe was required to drive both overhead valves. just as revolutionary was the hydraulic valve actuation, which used a pressurized stream of oil to power the "waterwheel" which kept the lobe spinning over. one side effect that required some rather brutal engineering fixes was that until the engine's oil pressure came up to normal, the engine's valve timing would be more or less random, resulting in some impressive start-up valve damage. the solution was a little hand crank that pressurized the cases before you started the beast, remarkably similar to the system used in new porsches to pressurize the oil system before the car is started (the cage, however, uses an electric oil pump. wimps). despite this fix, the engine had a nasty propensity for explosively firing its valves into the pistons when a cylinder would temporarily lose a bit of oil pressure in a corner. the solution was to run even higher oil pressures and change the gaskets and seals regularly. this was feasible because it was a racing engine. with just a single overhead lobe, and no pushrod/shaft/chain towers because of the hydraulic system, the head of the engine came to an almost perfect point: /()\ <-lobe / xx \ <-complex linkage (not shown due to valvestems -> / \ / \ complexity) =0= <---piston note that the tip was not truly vertical (it was at about a 70 degree angle to the ground, and this drawing doesn't show the curvature because there was none in the head itself. the bore curve would start about where the cylinder bore disappears in this diagram the effect of the pointy heads on top of a pair of gently (pundits of the day even said sensuously) curved cylinders was much like a pair of finned viking horns poking out from beneath the gas tank. thus, the the vik was a moderately successful racer, lightning fast when it worked, but plagued by problems relating to its revolutionary technology. eventually, it was dumped when spag finally realized that racing was not where the spagthorpe name would be made. the machines were raced for another year or two by privateers, and their fate (approximately six vikings were made, plus one or possibly two springers. confusing the issue is one old spag staffer who swears up and down that this machine was tooled for production, and that as many as twenty or thirty machines may have come off the line. however, no modern record of a production viking has survived, and most motorcycle historians discount this story. ryan cousinetc.|1982 yamaha vision xz550 -black pig of inverness|live to ride kotrb |1958 ajs 500 c/s -king rat |to work to dod# 0863 |i'd be a squid if i could afford the bike... |flame to ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org | vancouver, bc, canada |live . . . * slmr 2.1a * if you aren't sliding, you aren't riding. |computer dynamics bbs 604-255-9937(hst) 604-986-9937(v32)| |vancouver, bc, canada - easy access, low rates, friendly sysop| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104583">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104583" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 for the same money, you can get a kryptonite cable lock, which is anywhere from 1/2" to 7/8" thick steel cable (looks like steel rope), shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike's finish, and has a barrel-type locking mechanism. i don't know if it's adjustable, but my source says it's more difficult to pick than most locks, and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt-cutter jaws rather than shear (5/8" model). fyi, i'll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck. a word of warning, though: kryptonite also sells almost useless cable locks under the kryptonite name. when i obtained my second motorcycle, i migrated one of my kryptonite u-locks from my bicycle to the new bike. i then went out shopping for a new lock for the bicycle. for about the same money ($20) i had the choice of a kryptonite cable lock (advantages: lock front and back wheels on bicycle and keep them both, kryptonite name) or a cheesy no-name u-lock (advantages: real steel). i chose the kryptonite cable. after less than a week, i took it back in disgust and exchanged it for the cheesy no-name u-lock. first, the krypto cable i bought is not made by kryptonite, is not covered by the kryptonite guarantee, and doesn't even approach kryptonite standards of quality and quality assurance. it is just some generic made-in-taiwan cable lock with the kryptonite name on it. secondly, the latch engagement mechanism is something of a joke. i don't know if mine was a particularly poor example, but it was often quite frustrating to get the latch to positively engage, and sometimes it would seem to engage, only to fall open when i went to unlock it. thirdly, the lock has a little plastic door on the keyway which serves the sole purpose of frustrating any attempt to insert the key in the dark. i didn't try it (obviously), but i have my doubts that the lock mechanism would stand up to an "insert screwdriver and torque" fourthly, the cable was not, in my opinion, of sufficient thickness to deter theft (for my piece of crap bicycle, that is). all cables suffer the weakness that they can be cut a few strands at a time. if you are patient you can cut cables with fingernail clippers. aviation snips would go through the cable in well under a minute. michael robinson uucp: ucbvax!cogsci!robinson internet: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104584">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104584" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : tsk, tsk, tsk. another newbie bites the dust, eh? they'll learn. newbie. sorry to disappoint you, but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag. most of the people who made this group interesting 3 or 4 years ago are no longer around and i only have time to make a random sweep once a week or so. hence i missed most of this thread. based on your previous postings, apparently devoid of humour, sarcasm, wit, or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time, i assumed you were serious. mea culpa. still, it's nice to see that bnr are doing so well that they can afford to overpay some contractors to sit and read news all day. pete young pky@fmg.bt.co.uk phone +44 473 227151 "most people prefer entertaining nonsense to unexciting reality" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104588">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104588" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my 750 ninja. this will be the the first time i've taken anyone for an extended ride (read: farther than around the block :-). we'll be riding some twisty, fairly bumpy roads (the mines road-mt.hamilton loop for you sf bay areans). this person is <100 lbs. and fairly small, so i don't see weight as too much of a problem, but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go? i want her to hold onto me :-) rather than the grab rail out back, and i've heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we're turning so she leans *with* me, but what else? are there traditional signals for slow down!! or go faster!! or i hafta go pee!! etc.??? i really want this to be a positive experience for us both, mainly so that she'll want to go with me again, so any help will be appreciated... -bob- bob wert rmw@genie.gene.com rwert@well.sf.ca.us dod#0302 ama#510680 '90 ninja 750r '89 mustang 5.0lx ...seven turns on the highway, seven rivers to cross, sometimes you feel like you can fly away, sometimes you get lost... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104592">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104592" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 greetings fellow motorcycle roadracing enthusiasts! the racing listserver (boogie.ebay.sun.com) contains discussions devoted to racing and racing-related topics. this is a pretty broad interest group. individuals have a variety of backgrounds: motojournalism, roadracing from the perspective of pit crew and racers, engineering, motosports enthusiasts. the size of the list grows weekly. we are currently at a little over one hundred and eighty-five members, with contributors from new zealand, australia, germany, france, england, canada finland, switzerland, and the united states. the list was formed (october 1991) in response to a perceived need to both provide technical discussion of riding at the edge of performance (roadracing) and to improve on the very low signal-to-noise ratio found in rec.motorcycles. anyone is free to join. discussion is necessarily limited by the rules of the list to issues related to racing motorcycles and is to be "flame-free". how to get the daily distribution you are welcome to subscribe. to subscribe send your request to: race-request@boogie.ebay.sun.com traffic currently runs between five and twenty-five messages per day (depending on the topic). nb: please do _not_ send your subscription request to the list directly. after you have contacted the list administrator, you will receive an rsvp request. please respond to this request in a timely manner so that you can be added to the list. the request is generated in order to insure that there is a valid mail pathway to your site. upon receipt of your rsvp, you will be added to either the daily or digest distribution (as per your initial request). how to get the digest distribution it is possible to receive the list in 'digest'ed form (ie. a single email message). the roadracing digest is mailed out whenever it contains enough interesting content. given the frequency of postings this appears to be about every other should you wish to receive the list via digest (once every 30-40k or so), please send a subscription request to: digest-request@boogie.ebay.sun.com how to post to the list this is an open forum. to post an article to the list, send to: race@boogie.ebay.sun.com depending on how mail is set up at your site you may or may not see the mail that you have posted. if you want to see it (though this isn't necessarily a guarantee that it went out) you can include a "metoo" line in your .mailrc file (on unix based mail systems). because i haven't had the time (or the inclination to replace the list distribution mechanism) we still have a problem with bounces returning to the poster of a message. occasionally, sites or users go off-line (either leaving their place of employment prematurely or hardware problems) and you will receive bounces from the race list. check the headers carefully, and if you find that the bounce originated at sun (from whence i administer this list) contact me through my administration hat (race-request@boogie.ebay.sun.com). if not, ignore the bounce. other lists two-strokes: 2strokes@microunity.com harleys: harley-request@thinkage.on.ca or uunet!watmath!thinkage!harley-request european bikes: majordomo@onion.rain.com (in body of message write: subscribe euro-moto) thanks, be seeing you, rich (race list administrator) rich@boogie.ebay.sun.com stefan fielding-isaacs 415.822.5654 office/fax dba art & science "books by design" 415.599.4876 voice/pager ama/ccs #14 * currently providing consulting writing services to: gain technology, verity * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104594">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104594" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 most people wave or return my wave when i'm on my harley. other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i'm on my duck. squids don't wave, or return waves ever, even to each other, from what i can tell. when we take a hand off the bars we fall down! jorg klinger | gsxr1100 | if you only new who arch. & eng. services |"lost horizons" cr500 | i think i am. umanitoba, man. ca. |"the embalmer" it175 | - anonymous --squidonk-- 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104596">
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 |> how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip #19 ? |> the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner |> dumped the bike. same is true for one of the turn signals. |> both of the scuffed areas are black plastic. |> i recall reading somewhere, that there was some plastic compound you could coat |> the scuffed areas with, then rub it down, ending with a nice smooth shiny |> finish ? in the may '93 motorcyclist (pg 15-16), someone writes in and recomends using rubberized undercoating for this. von welch (vwelch@ncsa.uiuc.edu) ncsa networking development group '93 cbr600f2 '78 kz650 '83 subaru gl 4wd - i speak only for myself and those who think exactly like me - 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104600">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104600" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 request for opinions: which is better - a one-piece aerostitch or a two-piece aerostitch? we're looking for more than "well, the 2-pc is more versatile, but the 1-pc is better protection,..." thanks in advance, what is best? books have been written on that! but in regard to aerostich it really depends on your particular size, shape and needs. if you upper and lower body are not proportional (according to aero dimensions) then it probably is going to be better mixing and matching the 2 piece suit. i have the 2 piece suit and i am very happy with it. having my life quota of scars from crashing off road, i am very concerned with good protection and i believe that the difference in protection between the 1 and 2 piece suits is almost negligible. i think the optional hip pads and back protector make much more of a difference. one thing that is nice about the 2 piece is if you go somewhere and then want to walk around for a while (still with jacket) you can just detach and stow the pants. one thing to note is that goldfine has problems getting a good fit for many women (with standard suits). supposedly for smaller women (and petite men for that matter) the 1 piece will fit better. another recommendation is to pay for mods if you need them. i wish i got 2-3 inches added to my pant legs. i find the long suits are not really that long (i can't imagine how short the standard suits must be). jonathan e. polito internet: jpolito@encore.com encore computer corp, 901 kildaire farm rd, cary, nc 27511 usa 919-481-3730/voice 919-481-3868/fax 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104602">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104602" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i can file a complaint about this? and actually have the chance to have something done? how? who? where? a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime. that's why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one, you are still innocent until proven guilty. cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes, anyone who witnesses a crime can do so. go to the highway patrol and explain the situation, give them a description of the car and the license number, and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute (ie, search the vehicle code and have the section number handy). fill out the ticket and sign it. it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through. if contested, you will have to appear in court to prosecute. your word will not carry the same weight as a cop's. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104603">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104603" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 is anyone going to the p.b frenzy at cadwell park in may. i am going, but only to watch. when asked what would i most want to try before doing it, i said death. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104604">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104604" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was able to avoid an accident by revving my engine and having my *stock* harley pipes make enough noise to draw someones attention. sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle. should we get into how many feet a bike going 55mph goes in .30 seconds; or how long it would take me to push my horn button?? if we do, i think you'd loose. sure, you're hand's already on the throttle. and your thumb is already near the horn button. pushing the horn button is one simple move. revving the throttle requires either engaging the clutch, or accelerating. the first is a more complex manuver than a simple horn button push, and the second ain't too bright when there is a potential hazard ahead. besides, the unique sound of a horn is more effective in attracting the attention of bdi cagers than is the sound of an engine, which is what they expect to hear (you are on the road!). as is usually the case, a single anecdote hardly constitutes sound safety procedure. the answer is 161.33 feet. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104605">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104605" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 * for sale * from ann arbor, michigan 1988 kawasaki ex-500 6682 miles cherry red excellent condition asking $2300 contact brian at (313) 747-1604 (days) (313) 434-7284 (evenings & weekends) or e-mail at vaughan@umich.edu...or reply to this post. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104606">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104606" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sebastian c sears, on the tue, 13 apr 1993 02:32:13 gmt wibbled: : ... came around a right hand sweeper (going around : 45 mph) only to find a cager going around 30 mph, calmly driving : along, with no other traffic around, in *my* lane. not crossing : the line, not swerving, fully and totally within the south-bound : lane of 9w (one lane each direction). and i haven't even got there yet. must have been some other brit... nick (the english biker) dod 1069 concise oxford left is right m'lud. ___ ___ ___ ___ {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} nick pettefar, contractor@large. ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated at bnr, ___ ___ ___ ___ maidenhead, the united kingdom. |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 _ _ _ __ . |_______| [_______| _:_ |___| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104607">
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 mike sixsmith, on the 16 apr 93 10:07:55 gmt wibbled: [ very interesting (yawn) stuff deleted, because i'm like that... ] : formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you're going to : be able to ride a bike properly and safely. but by including countersteering : theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily, right at : the time when there are *far* more important matters for them to learn. : and that was my original point. : mike i am in complete concordance with you there, mike. i was a silver starrider instructor, for a while. i learn't about countersteering last year and i have been riding bikes since 1976. we were never told about countersteering when being taught to instruct. it doesn't seem to have affected me or my friends or pupils. we just rode in blissful ignorance. nick (the biker) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud. ___ ___ ___ ___ {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} {"_"} nick pettefar, contractor@large. ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated at bnr, ___ ___ ___ ___ maidenhead, the united kingdom. |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| |"_"| npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 _ _ _ __ . |_______| [_______| _:_ |___| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104608">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104608" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 mere 20mph or so, gravel road with few loose rocks on it (as in, just like bad concrete), and 2200lbs of swinging beef jumped a fence, came out of the ditch, and rammed me! when i saw her jump the fence i went for the gas, since she was about 20 feet ahead of me but a good forty to the side. damn cow literally chased me down and nailed me. no damage to cow, a bent case guard and a severely annoyed rider were the only casualties. if i had my shotgun i'd still be eating steak. nope, if 2200lbs of cow can hit me when i'm actively evading, forget a much more manueverable dog. just run them over. one day out riding, my friend and i were passing a field of goats and noticed 2 out on the road. as we slowed to pass the ram made a dash at my friend just missing him and then tangling it self up in the barb wire fence. being good samaritains and generally nice guys we turned around to untrangle the goat from the barbed wire. as i pulled up next to him (seeing him still tangled up), stopped the bike and got off the goat had vanished (into the field i guess). jolly roger 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104610">
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 anti freeze i was wrong, still had the issue of "street rodder" in my last pile. in the february 1991 issue on page 24 there is an advirtisement for anti freeze. and it makes a great party mixer the neo synthetic oil company has a reputation for developing overkill priducts the protect and extend the life of mechinical things, and here is there latest development. propylene glycol, probably the finest radiator coolant available. after 100,000 miles of testing, they find it has a boiling point of 365 degrees (much higher than conventional coolants)- which helps elminate detonation and pinging, it allows the use of smaller radiators in race cars, it will not damage aluminum blocks or heads, and it is environmentally safe. yep, this is the good stuff. baker precision products dept srm 2865 gundry ave long beach ca 90806 [213] 427-2375 i neither endorse or unendorse the above product, i only copied the advert blurb for others info, ymmv there are only two types of ships in the navy; submarines and targets !!! #1/xs1100lh dod #956 #2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| uunet:uunet!bcr!fist #include <std.disclaimer> my opinions are my own!!! i don't shop in malls, i buy my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104612">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104612" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : >if i remember correctly, the reason that bmw's come with those expensive, : >and relatively worthless, short lived varda batteries, is 'cause bmw owns : >a controling interest in that battery manufacturer. : what's wrong with the bmw battery? i've never had problems and i know : numerous people that are still using the original battery in there : 8-10 year old beemers. the original battery in an 8-10 year old bmw may be fine. mine lasted many years. the replacement 30ah battery from bmw was a disaster. the mechanic from comp. acc. told me that ca would warantee replace the bad one with a new one of the same evil bad batteries and tell the customer if they have problems to bring it back and they'd do it again. it seems that many of those 30ah batteries were doa, near-doa, and always unlikely to be going strong by the end of the warantee period on them. there was a big batch of bad ones, and they replaced them with -you guessed it - more bad ones. bmw switched to a 25ah battery that has more cold cranking amps, even if it has less total juice. i switched to a yuasa that has even more cold cranking amps and cost one third fewer dollars. neil kirby dod #0783 nak@archie.cbusa.att.com at&t bell labs columbus oh usa (614) 860-5304 if you think i speak for at&t you might have more lawyers than sense. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104613">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104613" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 now the bike is off warranty, i finally replaced the stock items on my softail custom with the title ones. installation was pretty easy in both cases, even for a fairly non-mechanical chemist type dude like me! i discovered the limitations of my tool collection, but had fun buying and making the requisite tools! mc ignitions power arc ii single fire ignition: easy to install, but read the wiring diagram carefully! setting the static timing was a piece of cake. once installed, i have found easier starting, smoother idle, and more power, plus a more satisfying (to me) bass note in the exhaust register...a lovely whompa-whompa-whompa idle :-) the folks at mc ignitions were great in answering my dumb questions on the phone..... a very helpful bunch of guys with a great product. s&s super e carb: installation easy, once i hacked down an allen wrench to a small anough reach to get at the intake manifold bolts. tunes like a dream, just like they say! the stock carb (non-adjustable) was so lean that it was gasping and spluttering for gas sometimes, and even backfiring into the intake manifold. the super e is terrific, no hesitation in any gear, and my plugs are a lovely tan color with no need to rejet from the factory settings! i know this may not seem like much to you grizzled veteran wrenchers out there, but i had my bike in so many pieces this weekend i began to get worried. but it all went back together again, and runs like a dream, so i am feeling pretty happy. now all i have to do is install my bub pipes and try to pass the nh noise gestapo test! russ hughes '92 fxstc dod# 6022(10e20) "love ...yeah, that's the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle." --sonny barger 
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 horse's neck in the direction you wish to go. when training a plow-steering horse to neck-rein, one technique is to cross the reins under his necks. thus, when neck-reining to the left, the right rein ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, given my desire to stay as far away as possible from farming and ranching equipment, i really hate to jump into this thread. i'm going to anyway, but i really hate it. ed, exactly what kind of mutant horse-like entity do you ride, anyway? does countersteering work on the normal, garden-variety, one-necked horse? obmoto: i was flipping through the march (i think) issue of rider, and i saw a small pseudo-ad for a book on hand signals appropriate to motorcycling. it mentioned something about a signal for "your passenger is on fire." any body know the title and author of this book, and where i could get a copy? this should not be understood as implying that i have grown sociable enough to ride with anyone, but the book sounded cute. tommy mcguire mcguire@cs.utexas.edu mcguire@austin.ibm.com "...i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information, identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm...." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104617">
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 hey folks-- i've got a pair of dunlop sportmax radials of my zx-10, and they've been very sticky (ie no slides yet), but all this talk about the metzelers has me wondering if my next set should be a lazer comp k and a radial metzeler rear...for hard sport-touring, how do the choices stack up? zx-10 dod 0812 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104618">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104618" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, bgardner@pebbles.es.com (blaine gardner) says: in a previous article, markb@wc.novell.com (m. burnham) says: ducati 400's are really slow. they don't sell them over here in us, but considering that the 750ss is not too powerful, the 400 is gonna' be a dog. oh yeah, 12.10 at 108 mph in the quarter is such a slug. come on, when was the last time you used your 750s max power peak? i think maybe you should ride one first, before passing judgement, there is a lot more than just maximum acceleration. i guess i'm out of touch, but what exactly is the ducati 400? a v-twin desmo, or is it that half-a-v-twin with the balance weight where the 2nd cylinder would go? a 12 second 1/4 for a 400 isn't bad at all. sorry, i should have been more specific. the 750 ss ran the quater in 12.10 @ 108.17. the last small v-twin duc we got in the us (and the 400 is a pantah based v-twin) was the 500sl pantah, and it ran a creditable 13.0 @ 103. modern carbs and what not should put the 400 in the high 12s at 105. btw, fzr 400s ran mid 12s, and the latest crop of japanese 400s will out run that. it's hard to remember, but but a new goof2 will clobber an old kz1000 handily, both in top end and roll-on. technology stands still for no-one... al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104620" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my 1979 honda cb750k with a slightly larger one? (i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one) just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm. it can be done, contact chaparell cycle supply, they ought to have the sprocket you need/want for cheap, well much cheaper than your average dealership. hey they even had sprockets for my vf1000r which is hard to find accesssories for. | vf1000r intecptor pilot | craig@cellar.org | the institute | | dod #13013 |------------------| (215)-356-2543 | | kotk (keeper of the keepers) | | 3/12/24/9600 bauds | /\ fuschal: the promised land. where those who have faith shall wear ==/ \==> hats of great majesty, yea, though they be made of cardboard and /____\ have humourous arrows through them. (red dwarf) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104621">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104621" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 blind driveway at 15-30 mph. for that matter, how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit 30 mph by the end? i eagerly await comment. well, my driveway is... just keep an eye out for the blue glh turbo that utilizes the "hit-the-ground-running" merging technique. at least i don't have a dog that you need worry about. last week while entering a sand/gravel covered intersection in the country, i caught something unkosher out of the corner of my eye (you know that disgusting sensation when great, as-of-yet unidentified, evil is about to intimately acquaint itself with you-- kind of like knowing that that darkening shadow around you just cannot possibly be anything even remotely good, because it probably has something to do with a boeing 747 behaving, gravitationally speaking, much like a brick). negotiating my way into this intersection that somehow reminded me of daytona beach (sans h2o, sun, & babes) i manage to get a glance at my impending destiny. lucifer's own dog. hell's secret blend of canine-- doberman and rottweiler (it moved with the grace of a doberman, yet had the hulk and jowels of the rottweiler-- a creature with a definite *wrong* end to be at). the picture in my mirrors was fuzzy, but there was no mistaking the fangs and saliva trail. to shorten a verbose tale, my burly gaurdian-angels once again performed above and beyond the call of duty, carried the bike through the sand-trap (i honestlyhave no idea how), and left the minion of beelzebub with a face that suspiciously resembles a metzler tread. no blood, though-- rats. moral: i'm not really sure, but more and more i believe that bikers ought to be allowed to carry handguns. c eric sundheim grandrapids, mi, usa `90 hondo vfr750f dod# 1138 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104622">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104622" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 h. marc lewis | "there are two kinds of people in the world -- olivetti north america | those who divide everything in the world into marcl@mail.spk.olivetti.com | two kinds of things and those who don't" i thought it was: "there are two kinds of people in the world. those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don't." and then there's: "there are three kinds of people in the world. those who like math and those who don't." obmoto: michigan weather forecast for saturday: high in the low 40s, chance of snow flurries, showers possible. enjoy the weather where you are. have a ride on me. phil de haan (dod #0578) why yes. that is my 1974 honda cl360. "that's the nature of being an executive in america. you have to rely on other people to do something you used to do yourself." -- donald fehr, executive director, major league baseball players association. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104623">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104623" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as i won't be able to make the joust this summer (job related time conflict :'^{ ), i plan instead on going to the rider rally in i'll be leaving from chicago. and generally plan on going down along the indiana/illinois border into kentucky and then tennessee. i would be very interested in hearing suggestions of roads/routes/areas that you would consider "must ride" while on the way to knoxville. i can leave as early as 5/22 and need to arrive in knoxville by 6pm on 5/25. that leaves me a pretty good stretch of time to explore on the way. by the way if anyone else is going, and would like to partner for the ride down, let me know. i'll be heading east afterward to visit family, but sure don't mind company on the ride down to the rally. depending on weather et al. my plan is motelling/tenting thru the trip. from the rally i'll be heading up the blue ridge parkway, then jogging into west va (i-77) to run up 219 -> marlington, 28 -> petersburg, 55e -> i-81/i-66e. after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania, new york?, and back to chicago (by 6/6). suggestions for these areas would be of great interest also. many thanks for your ideas, steve bunis, sun microsystems ***dod #0795*** 93-st1100 itasca, il ***ama #682049*** 78-kz650 (are you sure this is april?????? b^| ) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104624">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104624" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 on 19 apr 93 18:25:00 gmt, ryan_cousineau@compdyn.questor.org (ryan cousineau) said: cb> don't be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can cb> fall down and go boom! ryan> another good place for your helmet is your mirror (!). i kid you not. this is very bad advice. helmets have two major impact absorbing layers... a hard outer shell and a closed-cell foam impact layer. most helmets lose their protective properties because the inner liner compacts over time, long before the outer shell is damaged or delaminates from age. dr. hurt tested helmets for many years following his landmark study and has estimated that a helmet can lose up to 80% of it's effectiveness from inner liner compression. i have a video he produced that discusses this phenomenon in detail. puncture compression of the type caused by mirrors, sissy bars, and other relatively sharp objects is the worst offender. even when the comfort liner is unaffected, dents and holes in the foam can seriously degrade the effectiveness of a helmet. if you are in the habit of "parking your lid" on the mirrors, i suggest you look under the comfort liner at the condition of the foam. if it is significantly damaged (or missing :-), replace the helmet. jerry lotto <lotto@lhasa.harvard.edu> msfci, hogssc, bcso, ama, dod #18 chemistry dept., harvard univ. "it's my harley, and i'll ride if i want to..." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104627">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104627" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 :>curtis jackson pens... :>"msf course...$140" :shyah! :the one here only costs $35! :(izzat a deal or what?! :) they are free in philadelphia.... :-) '81 cb650 dod #1224 i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104628">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104628" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 duck. squids don't wave, or return waves ever, even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus, but what are these. squids are everybody but me and you. chris behanna is especially a squid. hey, dana! long time, no read. i'm afraid the squid rating has gone up slightly since getting the ninja, but i'm trying very hard to restrain myself--the bodywork is just too damned expensive (knock, knock). at least it's quiet... chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104629">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104629" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her |case by claiming to be stoned on pot, not intoxicated on liquor! geez, what happened? she got a ticket for driving too slow??? | ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- oh, are you saying you're not an edu.breath, then? okay. dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104630">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104630" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sixteen days i had put off test driving the honda st1100. finally, the 17th was a saturday without much rain. in fact it cleared up, became warm and sunny, and the wind died. about three weeks ago, i took a long cool ride on the hawk down to cycles! 128 for a test ride. they had sold, and delivered, the demo st1100 about fifteen hours before i arrived. and the demo vfr was bike-locked in the showroom -- surrounded by 150 other bikes, and not likely to move soon. today was different. there were even more bikes. 50 used dirt bikes, 50 used street bikes, 35 cars, and a big tent full of outlandishly fat touring bikes with trailers were all squeezed in the parking lot. some sort of fat bike convention. shelly and dave were running one msf course each, at the same time. one in the classroom and one on the back lot. plus, there was the usuall free cookout food that cycles! gives away every weekend in the summer. hmmm, it seemed like a big moto party. after about ten minutes of looking for rob c, cheif of sales slime, and another 5 minutes reading and signing a long disclosure/libility/ pray-to-god form i helped jt push the st out into the mess in the parking lot. we went over the the controls, i put the tank bag from the hawk into the right saddlebag, and my wife put everything else into the left saddlebag. ( thats nice.... ) having helped push the st out to the lot, i thought it best to have jt move it to the edge of the road, away from the 100+ bikes and 100+ people. he rode it like a bicycle! 'it cant be that heavy' i thought. well i was wrong. as i sat on the st, both feet down, all i could think was "big". then i put one foot up. "heavy" came to mind very quickly. with cindy on the back -- was she on the back? hard to tell with seat three times as large as a hawk seat -- the bike seemed nearly out of control just idling on the side of the road. by 3000 rpm in second gear, all the weight seemed to dissappear. even on bike with 4.1 miles on the odometer, slippery new tires, and pads that did not yet bite the disks, things seems smooth and sure. cycles! is on a section of 128 that few folks ever ride. about 30 miles north of the computer concentration, about five miles north of where i95 splits away, 128 is a lighly travelled, two lane limited access highway. it goes through heavily forested sections of hamilton, manchester-by-the-sea and newbury on its way to gloucester. on its way there, it meets 133, a road that winds from the sea about 30 miles inland to andover. on its way it goes through many thoroughly new england spots. perfect, if slow, sport touring sections. cindy has no difficulty with speed. 3rd gear, 4th gear, purring along in top gear. this thing has less low rpm grunt that my hawk. lane changes were a new experience. a big heft is required to move this thing. responds well though. no wallowing or complaint. behind the fairing it was fairly quiet, but the helmet buffeting was non-trivial. top gear car passing at 85mph was nearly effortless. smooth, smooth, smooth. not sure what the v4 sound reminds me of, but it is pleasant. if only the bars were not transmitting an endless the jump on to 133 caused me to be less than impressed with the brakes. its a down hill, reversing camber, twice-reversing radius, decreasing radius turn. a real squeeze is needed on the front binder. the section of 133 we were on was tight, but too urban. the st works ok in this section, but it shows its weight. we went by the clam shack oft featured in "spencer for hire" -- a place where you could really find "spencer", his house was about 15 miles down 133. after putting through traffic for a while, we turned and went back to 128. about half way through the onramp, i yanked cindy's wrist, our singal for "hold on tight". head check left, time to find redline. second gear gives a good shove. third too. fourth sees dod speed with a short shift into top. on the way to 133 we saw no cops and very light traffic. did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new. well, now it had 25 miles on it, so it was ok. tried some high effort lane changes, some wide sweeping turns. time to wick it up? i went until the buffeting was threating to pull us off the seat. and stayed there. when i was comfortable with the wind and the steering, i looked down to find an indicated 135mph. not bad for 2-up touring. beverly comes fast at more than twice the posted limit. at the "get off in a mile" sign, i rolled off the throttle and coasted. i wanted to re-adjust to the coming slowness. it was a good idea: there were several manhole-sized patches of sand on the exit ramp. back to the slow and heavy behavior. cycles! is about a mile from 128. i could see even more cars stacked up outside right when i got off. i managed to thread the st through the cars to the edge of the concrete pad out front. heavy. it took way too much effort for cindy and i to put the thing on the center stand. i am sure that if i used the side stand the st would have been on its side within a minute. my demo opinion? heavy. put it on a diet. smooth, comfortable, hardly notices the dod speed. i'd buy on for about $3000 less than list, just like it is. too much $ for the bike as it is. frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns, drugs and cash...today. 101 edgewater drive inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572 wakefield ma outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572 018801285 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104633">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104633" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don't really know anything about it. what is dod? this has to be a setup. lookit--same site as arnie skurow. chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104635">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104635" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am looking for a new tank bag now, and i wondered if you, as follow fj1100/1200 owners, could make some suggestions as to what has, and has not worked for you. if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way! with the fj's large, flat gas tank, i'd imagine that almost anything would work. personally, i'm quite happy with my eclipse standard tank blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104638">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104638" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 uh, folks, the shaft doesn't have diddleysquatpoop to do with it. i can get the front wheel off the ground on my /5, ferchrissake! the statement above is _true_ to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement. misinformation: that's the spirit, bill. my /5 will do wheelies because it's a chain drive model. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104642">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104642" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 % i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this. i have % several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops. what happened to charlie lear?? he used to have "connections", didn't (hey, this is cyberspace mister... you wanna 'stateside cop, ya gotta' specify!) | john little - gaijin@japan.sun.com - sun microsystems. atsugi, japan | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104645">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104645" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this person is <100 lbs. and fairly small, so i don't see weight as too much of a problem, but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go? i want her to hold onto me :-) rather than the grab rail out back, and i've heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we're turning so she leans *with* me, but what else? are there traditional signals for slow down!! or go faster!! or i hafta go pee!! etc.??? i've never liked my passengers to try and shift their weight with the turns at all... i find the weight shift can be very sudden and unnerving. it's one thing if they're just getting comfortable or decide to look over your other shoulder, but i don't recommend having him/her shift her weight with each turn... too violent. also (i think someone already said this) make sure your passenger wears good gear. i sometimes choose to ride without a helmet or lacking other safety gear (depends on how squidly i feel) but i won't let passengers do it. what i do to myself i can handle, but i wouldn't want to hurt anyone else, so i don't let them on without gloves, jacket, (at least) jeans, heavy boots, and a helmet that *fits* i really want this to be a positive experience for us both, mainly so that she'll want to go with me again, so any help will be appreciated... go *real* easy. it's amazing how solid a grip you have on the handle bars that your passenger does not. don't make her feel like she's going to slide off the back, and "snappy" turns for you are sickening lurches for her. in general, it feels much less controlled and smooth as a passenger. i can't stand being on the back of my brother's bike, and i ride aggressively when i ride and i know he's a good pilot... still, everything feels very unsteady when you're a passenger. -bob- show off by not showing off the first time out... "this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday." - temple of the dog sea-bass sears --> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu --> dod#516 <-- |stanley, id.| '79 yamaha xs750f -- '77 bmw r100s -- '85 toyota 4runner -- | nyc, ny. | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104646">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104646" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i can't help myself. i've tried to be rational, to look the other way, but everytime it happens, its uncontrollable. i hate pre'80s motorcycles. at first i thought it was a phase. i though i would get used to them. it didn't happen. i tried gazing at cb750s and 900 customs, but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice (i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps, but i can't figure that part out). what am i to do? everytime i read a .sig containing some spoked wheel wonder, i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough. i imagine the owner scrapping out his (or her) living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box, tucked in next to their cx500. i'm hoping for some deliverance. i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine, but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching. there must be hope. = the beav |mike beavington| dod:9733 = = v65sabre mbeaving@bnr.ca = = my employer has no idea what i'm talking about! = 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104647">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104647" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i haven't seen anything about it yet, but if it's already been mentioned i'm sorry for the repost. anyways, tnn is showing daytona on sunday april 18 at 7:00pm to 8:30pm (est). don't miss it. it's got a hell of a finish! well, i looked for it and didn't manage to find it in my listings for tnn. has anybody taped it vhs, and could they be persuaded to lend it to me after they watch it? i would be most greatful. jon wright "now how the hell did pages software inc. dod #0823 that come outa my mouth?" '86 vfr700f2 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104651">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104651" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 let me guess. you were making a left turn, correct? the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself. if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud. bzzzt! thanks for playing. if he'd been making a right turn, the sucker would have been a couple feet off the | michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr | | internet: nelson@seahunt.imat.com dod #0735 | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104653">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104653" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm not sure on the older bikes, but the yamaha virago 535 has spec'd seat height of 27.6 in. and the honda shadow 27.2 in. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104655">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104655" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm thinking about becoming a bike owner this year w/o any bike experience thus far. i figure that getting a decent used bike for under $1k the thing would pay for itself while i'm at grad school (car permits are $$$ where i'm going and who want's to ride a bus). i'm looking for advice on a first bike - best models/years. i'm not looking for an old loud roaring thing that sounds like a monster. the quit whirring of newer engines is more to my liking. apprec any advice. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104656">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104656" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 mjs>well, there are just as many courses here and elsewhere that do *not* mjs>teach the technique, yet seem to be rather successful... sure. you don't miss what you never had. those poor sods don't know what they're missing. i guess ignorance is bliss, eh mike? mr. bill + bill leavitt, #224 + '82 cbx "white lightning", '82 gs850g "suzibago" + + leavitt@cs.umd.edu + '76 cj360 "little honda", '68 lone star "sick leave" + + dod ama icoa nia + '69 impala convertible "the incredible hulk", others + + "hmmm, i thought bore and stroke *was* the technique!" michael bain, #757 + 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104657">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104657" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 one point not yet mentioned: hands on the driver's shoulders are a definite no-no. it feels good for the passenger to stretch her arms, and a shoulder massage feels good too, but the shoulders are connected to the arms, and the arms to the handlebars... should you hit the brakes, the pressure on the shoulders can make steering interesting. bundle her up if it's cold, make sure she has good gear (say it again), an pat her thigh to let her know all is great. good luck! mike 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104660">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104660" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 since at least one other person was interested in this: my fzr's black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired. yesterday i bought a can of vht 1500 degree black header paint and spent an hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand. sprayed on paint. thought about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that i wouldn't be at all suprised if the paint wore/chipped off in a month. soooo call a couple of places up in minneapolis and discover that powder coating, while extremely durable, will not handle over ~600 degree temperatures. the place i talked to said they were experimenting with some new powder that is supposed to handle 1100 degrees but that it wouldn't be available for months at least. they directed me to another shop that specializes in header coating. the other shop said they have 2 coatings available. one is aluminized that can do 1200+ degrees and is "comparable" to powder coating for durability. the other is silicon (i think) based and can do 1800+ degrees (!) but is thinner and not as durable. both coatings have a textured finish (not super smooth) and should be cleaned with hot water and a brush. price for 4 1-foot header pipes and a 2-foot 4-2-1 collector was ~$100. i'm planning to take the parts up friday and get them back (ups) next week maybe sounds to me like this kind of coating stuff should be way better than paint considering how much abuse the pipes get from road crap/rocks. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104661">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104661" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 being a mere female, i have often found i can't really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers, so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them. if somebody cuts you up, just wait till they have pulled out past you, and then gently lean over and bend their aerial, every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base - which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to replace. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104662">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104662" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 mjs>no no no no!! all i am saying is that you don't even need to tell people mjs>the technique of countersteering, cos they will do it intuitively the first mjs>time they try to go round a corner. karr>are you sure? remember that you *can* get around corners without karr>countersteering. in fact, my experienced rider course instructors karr>claimed that they could get on behind a new rider and make the bike karr>turn to whichever side they wanted just by shifting their weight karr>around, even when the operator was trying to turn in the opposite karr>direction. (i admit i've never actually seen this.) i've experienced this, back when i was young(er) and (more) foolish... my first bike used to track extremely true. going down the highway, i would set the throttle tension screw up enough to hold the gas steady, slide back on the seat and lean against the backrest, riding without any hands. if i needed to turn, i'd shift my weight into the turn, and lo and behold, the bike would turn, sans touching the bars! granted, it wouldn't turn very fast, but it proves that you can turn a bike without countersteering, at least not in terms of the input to the bar normally associated with countersteering. as i've said, i know many people who think all you do is lean, and any input they're giving to the bar is totally unconscious. whereas that may be sufficient to get you down the road under normal circumstances, possibly for years at a stretch, i can't think of anybody who'd argue that this is preferable to properly knowing how to manipulate the bar in a turn, regardless of what you want to call it. except maybe for mr. sixsmith... ;^) mr. bill + bill leavitt, #224 + '82 cbx "white lightning", '82 gs850g "suzibago" + + leavitt@cs.umd.edu + '76 cj360 "little honda", '68 lone star "sick leave" + + dod ama icoa nia + '69 impala convertible "the incredible hulk", others + + "hmmm, i thought bore and stroke *was* the technique!" michael bain, #757 + 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104664">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104664" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my 750 ninja. this will be the the first time i've taken anyone for an extended ride (read: farther than around the block :-). we'll be riding some twisty, fairly bumpy roads (the mines road-mt.hamilton loop for you sf bay areans). communication: work out your own system. or just slow down and holler back every once in a while. at reasonable speeds, even on my under-muffled magna, we can hear each other. it's only above, say, 45 mph that you can't really communicate. balance: new passengers are a real pain, because you never know how they're going to react to steering. some people catch on immediately and lean with me. others are completely skittish about the leaning thing, and keep their bodies perpendicular to the horizon. this is a pain while turning, but manageable. the worst are the passengers who stay perpendicular to the horizon, then remember in the middle of a turn and whip around until they're in the `correct' position. this always screws up the line i've picked out. here's my personal checklist of things to tell passengers: - attire: helmet, long pants, boots/heavy shoes, jacket. - keep feet on pegs at all times, unless i say otherwise. do not get on/off unless i say you can. (i've had people try to dismount in traffic, just as i'm pulling in to a parking space!) - muffler gets hot! ('nuff said) - we get *good* traction. we're not going to fall over. (many first-time riders are surprised by how tightly you can turn!) - turn dynamics: sit so that you feel like you're sitting upright and we're going straight. trust your butt, not your eyes -- if you're confused, close your eyes for a couple of turns to get the feel of it. or just hug me tight. - please, no sudden moves -- shift your weight as desired, but be gradual, so i can compensate. - your faceplate is yours to open/close as desired. - trust is essential. trust the driver (me) to do the right thing -- i've driven many miles on this thing, and know how to operate it. enjoy the ride. (this is important to stress. for example, one of my first-time passwngers seemed to watch the speedo like a hawk: i drove her to the beach down 84, and whever we topped 35 mph, she'd holler, "slow down! i'm scared" i humored her for a while, then simply covered the speedometer with the spare piece of duct tape i keep stuck to the top of the cluster. problem solved: she watched the scenery instead of the instruments, and had a much better time. based on her experience driving a lincoln continental, she was unwilling to trust my ability to choose a safe speed for the bike.) usually i'll point out the controls, engine, transmission, brakes, tires, etc. and discuss motorcycle physics a bit too for first-timers. helps calm their nerves, and gives the bike a chance to warm up. watch out for gravel on the mt. hamilton road: there were lots of little mudslides after the last big rain; by now, many of the blind corners will be nicely covered with a carpet of little, round, nearly invisible stones. it doesn't help build trust when you slide out on a blind corner, on the first trip! good luck -- have fun! don't drink soap! dilute dilute! ok! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104669">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104669" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am considering the purchase of a 1984 honda 1000cc interceptor for $2095 cdn (about $1676 us). i don't know the mileage on this bike, but from the picture in the 'rv trader' magazine, it looks to be in good shape. can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase? oog. i hate to jump in on this type of thread but .... pass on the vf1000. it's big, top heavy, and carries lots of expensive parts. what he said. most of my friends refer to them as "ground magnets." one |jeff earls jearls@tekig6.pen.tek.com | dod #0530 kottg kotspt wmtc ama |'89 fj1200 - millennium falcon | squid factor: 16.99 |'93 klr650 - thumpy | "hit the button chewie!"... han solo "there ain't nothin' like a 115 mph sweeper in the idaho rockies." - me dean woodward | "you want to step into my world? dean@fringe.rain.com | it's a socio-psychotic state of bliss..." '82 virago 920 | -guns'n'roses, 'my world' dod # 0866 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104671">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104671" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don't really know anything about it. what is dod? this has to be a setup. lookit--same site as arnie skurow. probably just want to see how many faq's they'll get. oh well. here goes.... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104672">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104672" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yes, even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering. basically to turn left, you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first, causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left. this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me. if by "quick wiggle to the right" you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning to the left, what is the input to the steering mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old "shove-shove"? -- david karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu) -- '80 bmw r65 dod #0969 also bmwmoa, nra, aclu, et al. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104673">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104673" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off 12 volts. the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says 12 volts dc, 20ma the question is: can i trickle charge the battery on my cb650 with it? you could, but it would be considerably cheaper to spend $8 or so on a trickle charger from k-mart, venture, or target, then it would be to replace the halogen lamp power supply after you fuse it trying to pump current into the battery... while charging, the charger should be putting out around 14 or 15 volts as well... jonathan e. quist jeq@lachman.com lachman technology, incorporated dod #094, kotpp, kotcf '71 cl450-k4 "gleep" naperville, il __ there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, \/ followed by the words "daddy! yay!" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104677">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104677" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |to follow-up, i had a bad experience w/ a krypto lock too... |last year i bought a krypto cable ii (3/8"x3-4' long, something like that) |that by all standards seemed like a decent piece. until i used it anyway... so, in short, the 3/8" cables seems to be pretty useless, i would guess. the larger cable seems to be a much better unit. i've got the larger cable - about 5/8" inch in diameter (actually, i think its larger), about 4 feet long which coils into a 8 or 9 inch coil, with the tubular key lock like the u-locks. it has worked fine for me for two years now, and *seems* (to me, anyway) that it is very secure. it doesn't have the weaknesses that the u-locks have other than the liquid nitrogen trick supposedly, is much easier to store in my tankbag than a u-lock, and more versatile. i got mine from one of the mail-order houses (motorcycle accessory warehouse, i beleive), for $42. in combination with an ignition disable, and a couple of other deterrents, all i *usually* worry about is vandalism. randy davis email: randy@megatek.com zx-11 #00072 pilot {uunet!ucsd}!megatek!randy dod #0013 "but, this one goes to *eleven*..." - nigel tufnel, _spinal tap_ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104678">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104678" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 uh, folks, the shaft doesn't have diddleysquatpoop to do with it. i can get the front wheel off the ground on my /5, ferchrissake! the statement above is _true_ to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement. misinformation: that's the spirit, bill. my /5 will do wheelies because it's a chain drive model. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. i knew when i posted that i was going to get into trouble. now i suppose i have to give /5 wheelie demos at the spring fling or something. but you're right, john, it is a chain drive model. i think it goes around the camshaft and up over the rocker arms or something. stolen from an early spagthorpe design, according to urban legend. wrs@gozer.mv.com (bill slack) dod #430 but her tears were shed in vain and her every word was lost in the rumble of his engine and the smoke from his exhaust! oo..o&o 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104679">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104679" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm now in the market for buying a bmw.the ideal would be an r80 rs but i'd be interested to here of any r80 for sale .age is not a problem - i'm more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time. i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance - 27yr old,licence for 9 years,no accidents/claims/convictions.am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next future beemer owner 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104684">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104684" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu () says: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? absolutely. early xs1100's were very good at this. mike terry '82 virago don't try it on your virago unless you already are purty good at it or like the smell of exploded clutch. go fast. take chances. mike s. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104685">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104685" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 jody levine) writes:>>>so the question i have is "how dangerous is riding"? >> i might only add two things.... stupid road design (or poor, at least) and here in louisiana the state sign is "caution - sub-standard roadway". ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... * god is real, unless declared integer. * * i came, i saw, i deleted all your files. * * black holes are where god is dividing by zero. * * the world will end in 5 minutes. please log out. * * earth is 98% full.... please delete anyone you can. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104688">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104688" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 dave edmondson, on the wed, 21 apr 1993 12:05:41 gmt wibbled: : : kevinh, on the tue, 20 apr 1993 13:23:01 gmt wibbled: : jonathan quist bemoaned: : : : |> yes, it's a minor blasphemy that u.s. companies would ?? on the likes : of a.m., : : : |> jaguar, or (sob) lotus. it's outright sacrilege for rr to have : non-british : : : |> ownership. it's a fundamental thing : lotus looks set for a management buyout. gm weren't happy that the elan was : late and too pricey. if they can write off the elan development costs the may : be able to sell them for a sensible price. : : : i think there is a legal clause in the rr name, regardless of who owns it : : : it must be a british company/owner - i.e. ba can sell the company but not : : : the name. : : : kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch : : i don't believe that ba have anything to do with rr. it's a seperate : : company from the rr aero-engine company. : it's vickers who own rolls royce cars. : and yes kevin it is posts, morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension. : ob bike (at long bleeding last): when will that pettefar bloke get a mail : address so we can bung him on the ogri list? : dave : david edmondson davide@dcs.qmw.ac.uk : queen mary & westfield college dod#0777 guzzi le mans 1000 : "this means the end of the horse-drawn zeppelin." what, you mean like the one in my bleedin' signature?! hello! nick (the connected biker) dod 1069 concise oxford mail address m'lud. nick pettefar, contractor@large. /~~~\ "teneo tuus intervallum" cuurrently incarcerated at bnr, {-o^o-} npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" maidenhead, the united kingdom. \ o / pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104690">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104690" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 freebie and the bean, great chase scene on a trials bike! ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... * god is real, unless declared integer. * * i came, i saw, i deleted all your files. * * black holes are where god is dividing by zero. * * the world will end in 5 minutes. please log out. * * earth is 98% full.... please delete anyone you can. * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104691">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104691" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> > >hello there |> > >can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v-max, pls kindly |> > >comment on its handling . |> > some guy came to the omrra race school last weekend with number plates |> > on his v-max. he didn't get more than 2 practice laps in before he pushed |> > the frame too hard and it drove him into the guard rail on the back |> > straight. |> > btw: the rider was conscious and semi-coherent when the ambulance |> > carted him off. that's all i know. |> i hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured (let's hope |> not), but: semi-coherent sounds like a good description of someone who |> shows up at the track w/ a vmax in the first place:-{ what does that make me for showing up with an old interceptor with worse brakes and handling (due to bent frame) than a vmax? and i didn't even... uh.... well, i was more than semi-coherent when the ambulance.... uh.... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104692">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104692" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes. vintage brakes 176 bluefield ave. newbury park, ca. 91320 (805)498-5527 they reline all types of obsolete motorcycle brake shoes with ferodo also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with. place to try: deutsches motorrad register 8663 grover place shreveport, la 71115 (club for all types of two-wheeled german equipment, including scooters. i periodically see ads for maico scooter stuff in their newsletter.) | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104694">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104694" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 after reading the service manual for my bike (suzuki gs500e--1990) i have a couple of questions i hope you can answer: when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap, does one check it with the cap screwed in or not? most bikes i've seen that use a dipstick rather than a sight glass are designed to check it without screwing it in. in the manual for my cbr900rr, they specifically state it should be done this way. | michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr | | internet: nelson@seahunt.imat.com dod #0735 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104696">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104696" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, }we have *all* the advantages. i agree with this 100%. after all, when you grab under his chin and are careful to keep your hands away from his twisting head, what is he going to do -- tailwag you to death? i even had one occasion where i was unexpectedly jumped by a 130 lb. german shepherd and grabbed his upper jaw in one hand and his lower jaw in the other. now i'm holding his mouth open (no way is he strong enough to clamp down) and he can do nothing. however, all this macho shit aside, the fact is that when you are riding a bike and a dog is arrowing to intercept, it may be unwise for you to stop and try to deal with the dog, for the simple fact that it might be through your leathers and working on your jeans before you can dismount and deal with it properly. by all means, if you do kick the dog or otherwise get its attention, stop and stay there. if you kick the dog and ride away, that is a victory for the dog -- it drove you out of its territory. it is not even a qualified victory, it is a victory. if you kick it and stop, and sit there, 99% of dogs will say, "oh, shit! this guy's serious!" and back off. now you have established your dominance over the dog, and it probably will not bother you again. llamas, however, are a different story. if you stop near a llama, it will just hop on and insist on a ride. and that's if you're lucky; if it doesn't like you it'll barf you off the bike and steal it! curtis jackson cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod#0721 kotb '91 black lab mix "studley doright" '92 collie/golden "george" "there is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." -- thomas jefferson 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104700">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104700" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> >>i've had people in cages wave at me or give me the thumbs up on |> >>occassion. (i always return the wave or thumbs up). that never |> >>happened to me until i started riding harleys, so that may have |> >>something to do with it. |> >ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers? |> the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to |> a wave (and also good to see). i always wave when i see a kid that |> has at least noticed my bike. i figure it helps the future of the |> sport. yeah, it's impossible to be a tough biker when a 5 year old starts waving at you. = the beav |mike beavington| dod:9733 = = v65sabre mbeaving@bnr.ca = = my employer has no idea what i'm talking about! = 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104701">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104701" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 after signing the i will buy the bike if i wreck it and i will not sue you no matter what papers, they just pointed me at the bike and said have fun. i was a little nervous (well a lot nervous) mainly because it is a very expensive bike and i would hate to have to buy a new one let alone a wrecked one:^( are you sure? harley's disclaimer says, "if you crash, we take care of the bike, you take care of you." if you were really responsible for the bike, did your insurance cover ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104702">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104702" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 is it a genetic thing with little boys or what? even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted to motorcycles of virtaully any sort (often to the dismay of thier mothers :-) i think you just answered your own question... ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104703">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104703" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i.d. benham, on the wed, 21 apr 1993 17:11:39 gmt wibbled: : hi, : i'm now in the market for buying a bmw.the ideal would be an r80 rs but i'd be : interested to here of any r80 for sale .age is not a problem - i'm more : interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has : been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time. : i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to : insurance - 27yr old,licence for 9 years,no accidents/claims/convictions.am i old : enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next : year? : ian : future beemer owner my best advice would be to contact a local dealer (see the yellow pages under "motorcycle dealers") and ask for the address of the local section bmw owners club. the local bmw dealer will give you details of the bmw insurance terms and the club will help you with all details. getting a bike from the dealer is the best bet, if you can afford it. the warranty is fairly handy as bm bits are made from solid gold, apart from the parts made from ruby and platinum. apparently. nick (the perpetually broke bmw biker) dod 1069 concise oxford no loot m'lud. nick pettefar, contractor@large. /~~~\ "teneo tuus intervallum" cuurrently incarcerated at bnr, {-o^o-} npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" maidenhead, the united kingdom. \ o / pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104706">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104706" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : new duc 750ss doesn't, so i'll have to go back to carrying my lipstick : in my jacket pocket. life is _so_ hard. :-) my wife is looking for a jacket, and most of the men's styles she's tried don't fit too well. if they fit the shoulders and arms, they're too tight across the chest, or something like that. anyone have any suggestions? i'm assuming that the v-pilot, in addition to its handy storage facilities, is a pretty decent fit. is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women's motorcycling stuff? more importantly, does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any? i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually _fits_. hg makes the v-pilot jackets, mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose. i bought one of the last two they ever made. finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy. there is a lot of stuff out there that's fringed everywhere, made of fashion leather, made to fit men, etc. i don't know of a shop in your area. there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco/san jose area, but i don't recommend buying clothing mail order. too hard to tell if it'll fit. bates custom makes leathers. you might want to call them (they're in l.a.) and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in. large manufacturers like bmw and h.g. sell women's lines of clothing of decent quality, but fit is iffy. a while ago, noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing. don't know what they finally decided. seems to me that johns h.d. in ft collins used to carry some honest to god womens garb.> beth [the one true beth] dixon bethd@netcom.com 1981 yamaha sr250 "excitable girl" dod #0384 1979 yamaha sr500 "spike the garage rat" fssnoc #1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama #631903 1963 ducati 250 monza -- restoration project 1kqspt = 1.8 "i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged." -- zz top 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104707">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104707" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |zero to very fast very quickly... lastest rumor is 115 hp at the rear wheel, |handles like a dream in a straight line to 80-100, and then gets a tad upset |according to a review in cycle world... cornering, er well, you can't have |everything... sure you can have everything, if by "everything" you mean fast straight line performance and handling - present day liter sport bikes have more horsepower and have faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the v-max... plus, they corner just a bit better... | seriously, handling is probably as good as the big standards |of the early 80's but not compareable to whats state of the art these days. very true. randy davis email: randy@megatek.com zx-11 #00072 pilot {uunet!ucsd}!megatek!randy dod #0013 "but, this one goes to *eleven*..." - nigel tufnel, _spinal tap_ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104708">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104708" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've seen solar battery boosters, and they seem to come without any guarantee. on the other hand, i've heard that some people use them with success, although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person. have you tried one? what was your experience? how did you use it (occasional charging, long-term leave-it-for-weeks, etc.)? -- robert kennedy i have a cheap solar charger that i keep in my car. i purchased it via some mail order catalog when the 4 year old battery in my oldsmobile would run down during summer when i was riding my bike more than driving my car. knowing i'd be selling the car in a year or so, i purchased the charger. believe it or not, the thing worked. the battery held a charge and energetically started the car, many times after 4 or 5 weeks of just eventually i had to purchase a new battery anyway because the winter sun wasn't strong enough due to its low angle. i think i paid $29 or $30 for the charger. there are more powerful, more expensive ones, but i purchased the cheapest one i could find. i've never used it on the bike because i have an e-z charger on it and keep it plugged in all the time the bike is garaged. arnie skurow 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104714">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104714" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, essbaum@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (alexander essbaum) says: |> > any other bikes sold long distances out there...i'd love to hear about |> it! |> i bought my vfr750 from a guy in san jose via the net. that's 825 miles |> according to my odometer! mark andy (living in pittsburgh) bought his rz350 from a dude in massachusetts (or was it connecticut?). i sold a bike via the net to a young lady who lived in salt lake city. i live near lost angeles. it turned out we had mutual aquaintances at ucla as well. al bowers dod #900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa "well goodness sakes...don't you know that girls can't play guitar?" -mary chapin-carpenter 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104715">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104715" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i second the boots... oil spots from cars are particularly slippery when parking the bikes, and good boots help here as 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104716">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104716" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 it can be done, contact chaparell cycle supply, [...] hey they even had sprockets for my vf1000r which is hard to find accesssories for. i second that. they even had sprockets for my r100rs - _very_ hard to find. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104717">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104717" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sender: reply-to: harmons@gyro.wv.tek.com (harmon sommer) followup-to: distribution: organization: /usr/ens/etc/organization : as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa, but : right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money : down a rathole. let my current membership lapse when it's up for renewal. in my case that's not for another 3+ years, so i'd appreciate any hints on what will keep the organization in business that long. (and preferably longer, of course, and worth being part of.) become an activist: campaign for an mc insurance program; for universal driver/rider training before licensing. pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it. barnacles don't move ships. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104718">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104718" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sender: reply-to: harmons@gyro.wv.tek.com (harmon sommer) followup-to: distribution: organization: /usr/ens/etc/organization hey ed, how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse's reins left to go left? :-) or am i confusing two threads here? unless they have been taught to "neck rein". then the left rein is brought to bear on the left side of horse's neck to go right. equestrian counter steering? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104719">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104719" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu. this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused. always garaged. 1990 sportster 883 standard (blue) factory 1200cc conversion kit less than 8000 miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o-ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die-hard battery bike cover price: $7000.00 phone: hm 407/254-1398 wk 407/724-7137 melbourne, florida 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104720">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104720" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well, it looks like i'm f*cked for insurance. i had a dwi in 91 and for the beemer, as a rec. vehicle, it'll cost me almost $1200 bucks to insure/year. now what do i do? (i could probably just sell the bike and return my dod number,... andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104724">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104724" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa, but [...] let my current membership lapse when it's up for renewal. [...] hints on what will keep the organization in business that long. become an activist: campaign for an mc insurance program; for universal driver/rider training before licensing. pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it. barnacles don't move ships. you're obviously not referring to any of the three above-quoted individuals, because barnacles don't each send $20 to the crew of the ship to keep it moving. "get the organization to act on it" is easy to say, but says little about what one really can and should do. what the organization actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors, as far as i can see. that's what makes it so important to vote in an election of officers. it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active (in the state and national arenas, not infighting) than other m/c organizations. should we change this? or just join the other groups that already are in politics? (incidentally, the political hazards to motorcycle riders in the us at the moment don't compare to the problems of some other groups like gun owners. just try to take up target pistol shooting in the northeast or california, and i bet you'll wish you only had to worry about wearing a helmet. (why does every thread on rec.moto eventually come around to guns?)) -- david karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104725">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104725" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm looking to buy a used motorcycle helmet. i'm interested in a full face shield, but not necessarily a helmet with the piece around the chin. please email me directly. janice kendall kendall@adobe.com ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall onward; thru the fog! (tm) - oat willie's (tm) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104728">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104728" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 could some kind soul tell me the advance timing/revs for a 1981 xs1100 special (bought in canada). 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104729">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104729" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu. this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused. always garaged. 1990 sportster 883 standard (blue) factory 1200cc conversion kit less than 8000 miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o-ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die-hard battery bike cover price: $7000.00 phone: hm 407/254-1398 wk 407/724-7137 melbourne, florida 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104732">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104732" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips: what are they like during the summer? yes, you wiseguy, i mean while they are off! are they comfortable? they're a hard rubber-like compound. i always wear some kind of glove (fingerless) on the hottest days. given those two factors, they're ok, but certainly not cushy. when i needed heated grips i made them from pieces of an old bicycle inner tube and a cheap electric heating pad from the drugstore, on top of foam grips: soft *and* warm. cheaper by about a factor of 5, too. -- david karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104734">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104734" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hey, the lone biker of the apocalypse (see raising arizona) had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes. i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires, especially underneath overpasses at night (it's loud and lights up the whole underpass!!! it does! i do it to keep people off my ass. they really back away when they see canon fire rolling out the back of a harley. oh, yea. it raises hell with the baffles. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104735">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104735" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 went and played w/columbia's scanner and scanned in a bunch of pictures of my new (to me) 1977 bmw r100s. they are, however, not color, but 256 greyscale gifs. mind posting those to the euro archive? we have a directory specifically for bmws. ftp: 134.29.65.5 (vax2.winona.msus.edu) user: euro pass: spooge cd bmw get and put as you please. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104737">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104737" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 about a year and half ago when i first started riding, i took a msf course. i have taken those lessons to heart. over the past year i have had only a few near collisions with traffic morons on four wheels. yesterday i got to add another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless. i am sitting at a light about 1 - 2 car lengths behind a car, a wise decsion. suddenly i hear screeching tires. i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it's the moroon flying up right behind me, in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike. luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel. i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident? suggestions? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104741">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104741" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am thinking of going on a motorcycle tour in new zealand in the november-january timeframe. there are a few tour companies doing this, notably beach tours. can anyone who has done this let me know of their experiences, both good and bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104744">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104744" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 when/how do you decide that it is too windy to ride? when it's too windy to stand. when you're on the road in high winds, stay alert. even more alert than your "alert 'cause you're on a motorcycle and they're out to kill you" kind of alert. be aware of the terrain, and how it may funnel wind in sudden gusts (well, not gusts to somebody standing there, but it's gusty 'cause you ride through it). if you are riding in a steady crosswind, be aware of a hill that will block the wind, and adjust your lean angle. be aware of passing trucks to your windward side, your lean angle will change dramatically both as you enter and as you leave their turbulance cone. reducing your profile may help, ie, lean on the gas tank and kiss the triple clamp. keep a nimble hand on the steering, be ready to countersteer into and out of sudden wind bursts. keep a larger than usual buffer zone, both ahead and behind, and to the side, you can easily be blown half a lane over before you can react by countersteering. keep a close eye on traffic in your mirror, if someone is coming up wanting to pass, get out of their way early. stop often for short brakes, extensive riding in high winds is both mentally and physically fatiguing. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104745">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104745" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 and introducing a new polysyllabic word (strabismic, for example) polysyllabic is polysyllabic too.... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104747">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104747" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada do you know what syd meant when he wrote that line?? damn, am i in the wrong newsgroup again? wrong newsgroup or no, what did syd mean when he wrote that line? -erc, the always curious. dod# 1138 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104751">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104751" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 why just the other day a large group of us where lamenting how much we admire and wish we could be just like those macho british studs we've all grown up idolizing. well, and i thought all yanks were parochial ostriches. so some of you can at least aspire to better things...... andy, when are you ever going to get it straight? all yanks are self-satisfied gits. it's the canadians that are parochial ostriches. no, the yanks are. we are are midway through our insipid invasion of florida and they aren't even aware of it yet. jorg klinger | gsxr1100 | if you only new who arch. & eng. services |"lost horizons" cr500 | i think i am. umanitoba, man. ca. |"the embalmer" it175 | - anonymous --squidonk-- 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104752">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104752" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |course, the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain |final drive (which, as we all know, is less efficient and has higher |maintenance) and probably didn't know the answer at the start of the thread. when did *you* go out and change the laws of physics? :-) according to some numbers i used to see bandied around, shaft drive is on the order of 95-97% efficient, while chain drive is closer to 99%... seems to me that this makes *chain* drive more efficient, hmmmmm??? and granted, shaft has a lot less maintenance, which is fine, if you don't mind less performance... :-) :-) randy davis email: randy@megatek.com zx-11 #00072 pilot {uunet!ucsd}!megatek!randy dod #0013 "but, this one goes to *eleven*..." - nigel tufnel, _spinal tap_ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104754">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104754" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well, if i were to do that, i would never be going over 35 mph even in 6th gear!!! so my question is, will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the 6-7000 rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit???? i had the same inconvenience when i bought my ex-500; only i could at least go 50 mph during the initial break-in. despite the high quality of motor oils and motorcycle engines these days, i would follow the instructions, and just keep to city street riding for the first 500 miles. heck, those miles go by fast, and it's worth it to know you haven't possibly screwed up your engine. at the same time, this has all the makings of a 6-week-long thread debating the whole break-in topic. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104756">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104756" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 let fido have yer left arm. as he bites it, bring your right forearm down _hard_ on the back of his neck while bushing back and up with the left arm in fido's mouth. this will be followed by a dull crack and one limp dog. total cost to you, a couple of holes in your left arm if you arn't wearing so how does aerostitch hold up with this procedure? i'm ordering mine monday, may 3. and i'm happy about it, too. :-) :-) mike mitten - gnome@pd.org - ...!emory!pd.org!gnome - ama#675197 - dod#522 irony is the spice of life. '90 bianchi backstreet '82 suzuki gs850gl "the revolution will not be televised." 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104757">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104757" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 so how do i steer when my hands aren't on the bars? (open budweiser in.. david gibbs replies: just in case the original poster was looking for a serious answer, i'll supply one. yes, even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering. basically to turn left, you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first, causing a counteracting lean to i guess i was semi-serious. without using my hands, i lean and the bike turns. when leaning, a torque is applied, at a 90deg angle to the front wheel's axle, just as in countersteering. however, this torque is also about 90deg from the axis of the steering head. instead of making the bike lean, gyroscopic effect makes the bars turn, but i don't remember which way. oh yeah, i tried this in the driveway, on the centestand,(as suggested somewhere else) but it doesn't seem to work the same. rick clarke (clarke@bdrc.bd.com) ama# something,something,... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104758">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104758" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [flaming tutorial for the novice]. another thing to consider is, that like mexican food, a lot of folks mistake heat for quality. subtle references to various personal qualities/habits/ancestry/possesions generally earn more points than four letter words or the caps lock key. and introducing a new polysyllabic word (strabismic, for example) is likely to insure that some small part of your flame will become zounds! there's a blast from the past indeed! i'd nearly forgotten about the strategic significance of strabismic in r.m lore. it's really good to see it proudly displayed again, although i'm sure by now that its carbs are spooge-o-rama from long disuse. gosh, i'm tingling all over! chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104759">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104759" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 does anybody share my opinion that in big-city traffic a bike can be so low-powered that for example it cant accelerate out of trouble when necessary..the "screwed-down" versions of bikes sold on the german market with the different classes of liscence seems to make a lot of middle aged men putt putt around on 25-40km/hr maschines that are constantle getting in the way of "real" traffic! does anybody else have opinions on this topic!? email:snuffy@zelator.in-berlin.de ronald_j. bartle "ron is looking for new work berlin" (voice)+49.30.68963546 -but i do rent rooms again!" fax: +49.30.6860053 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104762">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104762" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what worked for me on my rd350 was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth. after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth/nose/muzzle burned on the pipes. one yip and he veered away, never to chase me again. neil kirby dod #0783 nak@archie.cbusa.att.com at&t bell labs columbus oh usa (614) 860-5304 if you think i speak for at&t you might have more lawyers than sense. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104763">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104763" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 you really expect a cop to answer these honestly? (first you gotta expect a cop to be honest...that's another story...) yeah, everybody knows cops always lie...and the people they deal with day in and day out *always* tell the truth..."no sir, occifer sir, i wazznut drinking tonight, i was just playing around back there..." "no sir, i wasn't speeding, i was realy only going xxmph, it was that guy next to me...didn't ya see him?" come on...stereotyping cops is no better than those that stereo type us. what say we try to show the same open mind to those around us as we would ask for ourselves...i know its a stretch...but its worth a try. my reason for saying that was 'cause _i_, if _i_ were a cop wouldn't go out of my way to tell people how to break the law. would you? the part about honesty was a joke, sorta. obviously, people have had bad experiences with cops lying. obviously, nobody's perfect and nobody _always_ tells the truth about everything. (or are you god? 1/4 ;) andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104764">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104764" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well, i watched the daytona race on tnn. boy for the people who saw it: was the yamaha a lot faster than the kawi or what? on the last stretch the yami took of and left the kawi in the dust. i am a kawi rider and am totaly disappointed in the kawi! lawson was on the yamaha. not taking anything away from russel, but, well... jorg klinger | gsxr1100 | if you only new who arch. & eng. services |"lost horizons" cr500 | i think i am. umanitoba, man. ca. |"the embalmer" it175 | - anonymous --squidonk-- 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104767">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104767" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [bdc driver nearly rams back of innocent biker...] i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident? suggestions? glad to hear that the bozo managed to stop. i've only been riding for about two years, but here are my rules for traffic light survival: - i try to *never* stop just over a hill behind a car. if i have to stop in such a location, i pull almost completely next to the car in front of me. if i'm the only one (ie no car in front), i turn the bike somewhat sideways across the lane, to increase my visibility to any oncoming vehicle. make sure to keep your taillight visible to traffic, though. (note: my bike is bright white; turning sideways on a black bike might not be as beneficial.) - on a flat road, i stop with a bit of room ahead of me (usually about two or three bike lengths). this will (hopefully) give me room to pull forward and to the side as a car approaches. - if you are the last in a line of vehicles, watch your mirrors *constantly!* if you see a vehicle approaching, and can't see any evidence to indicate that he/she is slowing down, get out of the way *now!* - flicker your brake light. if i'm the last vehicle in line, i will pull and release the brake as a car approaches from behind (noticed the car by watching my mirrors, of course :-). i vary the speed of the flicker, hoping to make the cager notice that there's something in the lane ahead of him. now, with all that said, it's the situation where you are first in line that i feel most defenseless. if you're first in line, your forward escape route is seriously limited - you can only move forward to the extent that you don't enter the intersection. i leave some room behind the stop line (although around here, the #@$*! light activators are always right up next to the stop line!), and watch the mirrors. i *think* i've decided that hopping off the bike might be the best way out of this situation. any other ideas for being first in line with no traffic directly behind rob griffiths | erasure.shonalaing.wildswans.b52s.u2.judybats.rem.smiths robg@apple.com | faa certified cloud basher i wanna drive the zamboni! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104771">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104771" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 and of course, you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion, no matter what the opinion is *somebody* will flame you for it. "hey, what the hell do you mean by that? you suck. i have a god-given right to express opinions, carry a gun and to not wear a helmet, goddamn it. everything you stand for is stupid." i'd give it an 0.5 on a scale of 10. while not mentioning hitler or koresh weighs in your favor, you also neglected to mention 105 mph, tennis balls, little girls and countersteering. another thing to consider is, ...or centerstands, or weasel squeezers, or .... chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104772">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104772" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 nice ridin' tex. i use the california dmv recommended technique: slow as you aproach said dog and wick it up as you pass. i've often this must be the standard strategy that is taught, cuz that's what they told me to do in my illinois msf class. it works well, only you don't get the satisfaction of kicking the shit out of some rabid hell-beast. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104774">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104774" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the question for the day is re: passenger helmets, if you don't know for certain who's gonna ride with you (like say you meet them at a .... church meeting, yeah, that's the ticket)... what are some guidelines? should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet (xl), or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash, have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size. if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws, carry a real big spare (you can put a big or small head in a big helmet, but not in a small one). while shopping for a passenger helmet, i noticed that in many cases the external dimensions of the helmets were the same from s through xl. the difference was the amount of inside padding. my solution was to buy a large helmet, and construct a removable liner from a sheet of .5" closed-cell foam and some satin (glued to the inside surface). the result is a reasonably snug fit on my smallest-headed pillion with the liner in, and a comfortable fit on my largest-headed pillion with the liner out. everyone else gets linered or not by best fit. michael robinson uucp: ucbvax!cogsci!robinson internet: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104775">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104775" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa, but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole. when you guys sort this out let me know. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * ditto for me.. -tim seiss '92k75s '89kx250 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104781">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104781" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 *everything* in louisiana is related to liquor: eating, sleeping, walking, talking, church, state, life, death, and everything in between. how dare you make such an accusation! accusation? i thought it was a recommendation. (i mean, i did grow up there, i oughta know). if we wern't so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end, i might just come up that and have a talk wit you! b-> bring the truck and about 10 pounds of crawfish and we'll talk. ray shea unisql, inc. unisql!ray@cs.utexas.edu dod #0372 : team twinkie : '88 hawk gt 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104785">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104785" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> >>}sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, |> >>}we have *all* the advantages. |> >>i agree with this 100%. |> >me, too... for chihuahua's. the police and the military don't train |> >dobermans and shephards and use them as weapons because they are so |> >easy for the average joe to defeat barehanded. you may have opposing |> >thumbs, but the dog has teeth so effective some of yours are named for |> >him. he has ir vision, better hearing and better smell than you do, |> >and most likely faster reflexes. |> >you're on a motorcycle, he's on paws. roll on and blow him off. he |> >doesn't even have net access. |> oh bull pucky, ed. they use dogs because a) many people are |> scared shitless of them and b) because of the nose and the |> vision and hearing. without their cop partner in attendance, |> the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with |> a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force. oh horse puckey. without their cop partner in attendance, they are less likely to be controllable *without* the use of force which would kill the dog. |> those teeth aren't very much good with an arm shoved into the |> back |> of the animals throat and held there, and the neck is not o.k. so you've disabled the dog's mouth, and given up use of your arm to do so. how `bout them front and read paws, and the fact that to plug up that mouth you've given the dog the advantage of balance... |> espcially strong. neither are the leg joints which can be |> easily snapped, or the skull easily crushed, on even the largest |> dogs. have you ever tried to snap leg or crush the skull of a dog without use of hardened instruments such as a baseball bat? without the use of both arms and full cooperation of the beastie involved, it's not *that* easy. oh, but wait, you've got your arm shoved in the dogs mouth. you lose.... |> your advice is correct, but a dog is still no match for a trained |> human in a fight. oh *now* you qualify you earlier statement by saying a *trained* human. |> >>}sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, |> >>}we have *all* the advantages. most people here have not been trained to deal with a dog that wants to maul you. get a clue. |> regards, charles |> within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of |> separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, |> struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing |> gourd. --unknown net.person steve mansfield | i was told theres a miracle for each day that i try. i was smm@uunet.uu.net | told there's new love that born for each one that has died. 1983 suzuki gs550e| i was told there'll be no one to call on when i feel alone dod# 1718 | and afraid. i was told if you dream of the next world | you'll find yourself swimming in a lake of fire. dream theater - metropolis-part i "the miracle and the sleeper" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104786">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104786" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 on a long ride with my ex-girlfriend nancy, i would notice her drifting off every so often [...] i swore off taking passengers over ten years ago, but i recall sturgis, 1981 getting some strange looks because my passenger was reading a book. she was so engrossed that she didn't even notice when we hit a roadkill to make the hit-of-the-day with the riders behind us. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104787">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104787" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs, preferably but not essentially in the london area. lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house 97-107 uxbridge road tel: +44 (0)81 566 2307 ealing fax: +44 (0)81 566 2308 london email: lisa@alex.com w5 5lt 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104788">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104788" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : kevinh, on the tue, 20 apr 1993 13:23:01 gmt wibbled: jonathan quist bemoaned: : : |> yes, it's a minor blasphemy that u.s. companies would ?? on the likes of a.m., : : |> jaguar, or (sob) lotus. it's outright sacrilege for rr to have non-british : : |> ownership. it's a fundamental thing lotus looks set for a management buyout. gm weren't happy that the elan was late and too pricey. if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price. : : i think there is a legal clause in the rr name, regardless of who owns it : : it must be a british company/owner - i.e. ba can sell the company but not : : the name. : : kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch : i don't believe that ba have anything to do with rr. it's a seperate : company from the rr aero-engine company. it's vickers who own rolls royce cars. and yes kevin it is posts, morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension. ob bike (at long bleeding last): when will that pettefar bloke get a mail address so we can bung him on the ogri list? david edmondson davide@dcs.qmw.ac.uk queen mary & westfield college dod#0777 guzzi le mans 1000 "this means the end of the horse-drawn zeppelin." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104789">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104789" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 grf. dropped my shoei rf-200 off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it's centerstand, chipped the heck out of the paint on it... gravity. it'll never let you down, er up, er... lesson: put your helmet on the ground or your head. if you put it on the ground, it isn't gonna fall down _to_ the ground. if you put it on your head, well... tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --gene spafford, 1992 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104790">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104790" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle. should we get into how many feet a bike going 55mph goes in .30 seconds; or how long it would take me to push my horn button?? the answer is 161.33 feet. try something like 24.2 feet. right. rom numbers (easy to remember) 100 mph ~= 150 ft/sec. tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --gene spafford, 1992 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104792">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104792" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the best thing to do is to get a full face, even if it is a cheap brain bucket. i didn't think a full face was important until i took a gnarly spill and ended up sliding 20 feet on my face. plus with the visor down, you also have no worries about your contacts. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104793">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104793" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there's also billy jack, the wild one, smokey and the bandit (where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes), and a video tape documentary on the hell's angels i found in a rental store once 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104794">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104794" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 it's exactly as dangerous as it looks. did you have anyone in particular in mind there jody? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104797">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104797" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in article <c5quw0.btq@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> "mikeh@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (mike hollyman)" says: hi, i have an 82 cb750 custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on. now when i put it back together again, it wouldn't idle at all. it was only running on 2-3 cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side. the exhaust is 4-2 mac. i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won't idle. i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up. i checked the timing, it was fine, so i advanced it a little and that didn't help. i assume the carbs need to be synched. can i buy a kit and do this myself? if so, what kit is the best for the price. any other suggestions? thanks in advance. mike hollyman it sounds like you got the cam timing off.......... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104798">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104798" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in article <1993apr15.193938.8569@research.nj.nec.com> "behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (chris behanna)" says: for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid-cooled persuasion, what brand of coolant do you use and why? i am looking for aluminum-safe coolant, preferably phosphate-free, and preferably cheaper than $13/gallon. (can you believe it: the kaw dealer wants $4.95 a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant!!! no way i'm paying that usury...) chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. i thought that all coolants were aluminum safe any more. but i would like to know more since i must tear down my kawasaki (again i must add). 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104801">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104801" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs, preferably but not essentially in the london area. lisa rowlands try dream machine, 0602 736615. i've seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good. they're in the midlands though... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104802">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104802" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there was an article in one of the u.k. dailies this week about a soccer goalkeeper who had to be carried off the field after a collision with a ford sierra cage. seems the cage driver wanted to turn around, but needed to drive onto the pitch to do this, so he waited till the ball and most of the players were up the other end. unfortunately, as soon as he started his manouvre someone booted the ball back down the pitch, the goalkeeper ran backwards towards his goal, straight into the cage! 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104804">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104804" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 on wed, 21 apr 1993 12:30:30 gmt, mjs@sys.uea.ac.uk (mike sixsmith) said: me> the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among me> the accident-involved riders in the hurt study. mike> i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs. but did the hurt mike> study make any distinction between an *ability* to swerve and a *failure* mike> to swerve? yes, it was specifically the *ability* or understanding of the technique which was absent. we have made a lot of progress between rider education and responsibility over the last ten-twenty years... but i am still amazed anytime i teach an erc how many people of many year riding experience "discover" countersteering for cornering or mike> everything else. hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive mike> manouvres - did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally mike> preferable? the specific recommandation cited in the hurt study was that a formal "street strategy", like sipde for example, was the most important component of any rider education curriculum. the specific skills of emergency braking, cornering and swerving must be taught and practiced as well, but more significant was that 35% of rider did nothing confronted with a potential accident, and another third collided or fell over as a result of rider error. the choice of specific maneuver is much less significant to the outcome than early detection and the proper execution of any effective countermeasure. jerry lotto <lotto@lhasa.harvard.edu> msfci, hogssc, bcso, ama, dod #18 chemistry dept., harvard univ. "it's my harley, and i'll ride if i want to..." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104807">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104807" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 beth [the one true beth] dixon bethd@netcom.com 1981 yamaha sr250 "excitable girl" dod #0384 1979 yamaha sr500 "spike the garage rat" fssnoc #1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama #631903 1963 ducati 250 monza -- restoration project 1kqspt = 1.8 "i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged." -- zz top now just wait one cotton picking minute here.... dod rule 417.1.2 section 6 paragraph 3 clearly indicates that multiple people can't lay claim to a bike in an "obvious" ploy to "artificially" increase the size of their stable... so the question of the day is... is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding (my definition: any woman who rides :-) ) or by tom the harely head??? i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport. (like i said, obviously a lady of discriminating taste...) bored minds wanta know. bj...bradw@newbridge.com... no .sig no .plan no.clue >> dod# 255 << 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104808">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104808" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 don't find out if she has to pee by scaring it out of her. don't armorall the seat just before her first ride even if you think you will need its urine-proofing qualities. henry prange - biker/renal physiologist physiology/iu sch. med., blgtn., 47405 dod #0821; bmwmoa #11522; gsi #215 ride = '92 r100gs; '91 rx-7 conv = cage/2; '91 explorer = cage*2 the four tenets of all major religions: 1. i am right. 2. you are wrong. 3. hence, you deserve to be punished. 4. by me. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104810">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104810" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a few random thoughts on riding with a passenger: there's no substitute for a bike with sufficient power, having taken passengers very occasionally on the small (125 etc) bikes i used to ride in the uk it was hard ! i'm now riding a gs1100 and that's great, even moving from my freinds gsx600 i was riding recently. this may be due in part to the fact that neither i, nor my regular passengers, are particularly slimline ! i always tell passengers, stay in line with the bike on corners, that makes their movements predictable. my regular passengers both tend to hold either the rack or nothing at all, i don't really like having a passenger hold onto me except for short periods. again that may be biased by the fact that i've had a couple of new passengers (a friend recently for her first time on a bike) who hold on to me real tight, making any kind of maneuvering difficult. i've also discovered that on longer trips i prefer a passenger who moves and shifts their weight a bit. i recently took a work collegue to a meeting (about a 1 hour ride) and he sat totally still the whole way which left me also sitting very still and getting a sore back. we have a code system for turns, stop and for 'i need to shift position'. chris seabrook, fujitsu open systems solutions inc | phone: +1-510-652-6200x118 6121 hollis street, emeryville, ca 94608-2092, usa | fax: +1-510-652-5532 | dod: #0861 per saltire gules and or, a sun counterchanged. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104811">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104811" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 unable to stand the pain anymore, my wife bought the corbin gunfighter and lady with passenger backrest for my hawk gt. it came with no instructions, but it came 2 weeks earlier than they said it would. installation would have been very easy, but the seat fastening hardware was apparently always on the wrong sides with the stock seat! it never was easy to put on. once i figured that out, the new seat went on the first try. the passenger backrest, though, does not fit as i thought it might. the supplied screw to set the backrest angle does not fit, and i have not yet found a suitable, hard, ( sae grade 8, or perhaps 5 ) 1/4-20 bolt that fits. there is a a soft bolt in there now -- just don't lean back. the driver's section of the seat is a bit wider. seems comfortable enough, but then again i put about 5000 miles on the stock seat without a thought. the passenger's section has about 8 times the volume of foam that the stock seat has, and from my short test it seems much more comfortable. the backrest helps a bit, but i've not has enough time to really test it. the backrest also comes with a small pocket. its now more difficult to swing my leg up over the 10" taller seat. if i go on the three-notch ride soon ( dixville, pinkham & smugglers), i'll give a more complete report, but in general it seems like an frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns, drugs and cash...today. 101 edgewater drive inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572 wakefield ma outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572 018801285 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104813">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104813" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car? i've caught myself doing it while on my bicycle. does that count? | dean cookson / dcookson@mitre.org / 617 271-2714 | dod #207 ama #573534 | | the mitre corp. burlington rd., bedford, ma. 01730 | kotnml / kotb | | "the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop" | '92 vfr750f | | -sam eliott, road hogs mtv 1993 | '88 bianchi limited | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104815">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104815" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : oh bull pucky, ed. they use dogs because a) many people are : scared shitless of them and b) because of the nose and the : vision and hearing. without their cop partner in attendance, : the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with : a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force. one of the things that police dogs are used for is to "take the bullet" instead of the human police officer. as charles said, many people are scared of dogs and will panic when one goes on attack. they will then turn their weapon on the dog and this allows the police officer to take control. : your advice is correct, but a dog is still no match for a trained : human in a fight. a single person vs. a single dog in a face-to-face confrontation should really be no contest. the dog is no match for a human willing to fight. multiple dogs is a different story . . . * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104818">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104818" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips: : what are they like during the summer? yes, you : wiseguy, i mean while they are off! : are they comfortable? do they transmit a lot of : vibration? how do they compare to the stock grips? : to foam grips? : do they really make a difference during the winter? i just got a k75 and had the heated grips installed. as far as i can tell the grips look and feel the same as the standard grips. they are *not* soft. last weekend i did a 500 mile round-trip and got to a point where it was in the 30s and raining. those heated grips were *great*. i've only had the bike a month and the heated grips are already one of my favorite features on the bike. * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104820">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104820" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime. that's why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one, you are still innocent until proven guilty. cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes, anyone who witnesses a crime can do so. go to the highway patrol and explain the situation, give them a description of the car and the license number, and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute (ie, search the vehicle code and have the section number handy). fill out the ticket and sign it. it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through. if contested, you will have to appear in court to prosecute. your word will not carry the same weight as a cop's. and, indeed, the advice i got from a police officer when i had my close call was that, without additional impartial witnesses, it would be my word vs. the other driver's, and that it was up to me to decide whether the time and inconvenience to me was worth the time and inconvenience to the other driver, and also whether any positive effect would result (beyond making me feel better). my $0.02 worth: i did this once. bdi ladycager in a town car passed me on the right on a two lane road!:-{ i memorized her license plate (this in the days before i carried pen and paper in my tankbag) and went to the local police station. cops filled out the ticket. i signed it. she paid it! tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --gene spafford, 1992 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104822">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104822" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> i'm a biker and a dog-lover. no wonder bikers have such a horrid reputation. "in dog we thrust" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104825">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104825" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 so the question i have is "how dangerous is riding"? it's exactly as dangerous as it looks. you're hard to see and have little protection. keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits, keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there. we deal with it because it's fun, but staying alive takes a conscious effort. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada thanks, jody. i can't say i've ever seen it summed up so succinctly before. i might only add two things.... stupid road design (or poor, at least) and we deal with it for the fun and *brotherhood* we share with others who take their lives in their hads to feel the wind in their hair....imho. binger is binger@hsh.com || is there really such a thing as a welcome to the attitude express. || "corporate" opinion? if so, maybe now get out. || my boss will let me express it. :-) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104826">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104826" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 newsgroups: rec.motorcycles path: usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!parr message-id: <93apr20.193958.30419@acs.ucalgary.ca> references: <ms-c.735160298.1147902781.mrc@ikkoku-kan.panda.com> <c5pntm.8co@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> nntp-posting-host: acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca organization: the university of calgary, alberta lines: 26 what, a dog weighs 150lb maybe, at max? you can't handle it? you have, i presume, thumbs? grapple with it and tear it's head off! sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, we have *all* the advantages. this was a recent discussion on rec.martial-arts. humans definitely don't have all the advantages. dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting of one sort or another. dod #1110 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104828">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104828" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm not sure what the other guy (can't track down his post for his name) was talking about when he made the claim that cobralinks are not adjustable. they are. there's a space between each link where the "teeth" of the locking head notch in. thus, each link is a possible locking point. also, (and this is not applicable to hard-core thieves who cart around liquid nitrogen and oxy-acetylene torches) the cobralinks "look" a lot more effective than kryptonite cable locks (imho) and i think the initial appearance effect is more relevant to bored-joyriders-nominally-adept-at- cracking-unsecured-bike deterrence, as long as the lock is nominally finally, i notice that when i ride with my leathers, harness boots, and the cobralinks slung across like a bandolier (btw, i've crashed in the rain dressed like this and the lock didn't pulverize any vertebrae), cagers give me a much wider berth, don't hassle me, and tend to avoid any potentially inflammatory action at stoplights. i love my cobralinks almost as much as i love my pre-80's honda dinosaur. (i think i have a pavlovian drool reflex-i put the lock on (i.e., on my body) and i can feel the bike already shaking away). my first post. what did i do wrong :)? dod #0846 '80 cx500 p.s. any other cx500 owners out there? please e-mail me. got questions about the weird handling on my bike. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104829">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104829" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around, so it's easy to tell when they're waving. and doders are easily recognized by their own special wave. pay attention and i'll tell you how to do it. hold your left hand out in front of you, fingers straight but apart - like a vase. you may also use your right hand if you have a throttle lock or are stopped. bring your fingertips and thumb together, touch, and open back to the starting position. while you are doing this, move your hand slowly to the left. do it gracefully and with a waving motion. you are now imitating a squid propelling itself about underwater probably in search of food, drink, squids of the appropriate sexual orientation, or other squids to go riding with. shoun@netcom.com (408) 926-0812 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104830">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104830" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 because riding a passenger doesn't really depend on the type of bike. the things you want a passenger to do/not do is the same. ergo, if he's asking advice, i reasoned he doesn't have much practice, period. if you say he does, fine. i still wouldn't take the uninitiated up a road that's all switch backs and reverse/center/uncrowned roadway, not to mention the bdcs and squids who will also be on that particular road. he asked for advice, and even though it wasn't what he meant, i still consider it some of the best i've read. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104832">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104832" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 21 apr 1993 10:28:02 gillian e runcie writes: being a mere female, i have often found i can't really take the big offensive line >>with asshole car drivers, so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them. if somebody cuts you up, just wait till >>they have pulled out past you, and then gently lean over and bend their aerial, every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base - which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to >>replace. dear gillian that is such a wickedly cool idea; why didn't i think of it??? however, here in canada the aerials (antenna) are usually near the driver or passenger areas and i would surely be seen......but i'll give it a try anyway. thanks for the first truely useable piece of information i have heard in a long time (and you are by no means a mere female, as this way at getting back takes real guts to do). * mike maser | dod#= 0536 | squid rating: 5.333333333333333 * * 9235 pinetree rd. |----------------------------------------------* * sidney, b.c., can. | hopalonga twinfart yuka-yuka excess 400 * * v8l-1j1 | wish list: tridump, mucho guzler, burley * * home (604) 656-6131 | thumpison, or bimotamoeba * * work (604) 721-7297 |*********************************************** * mmaser@sirius.uvic.ca |joke of the month: what did the gay say to the* * university of victoria | indian chief ? * * news: rec.motorcycles | answer: can i bum a couple bucks ? * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104833">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104833" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 -->what, a dog weighs 150lb maybe, at max? you can't handle it? -->you have, i presume, thumbs? grapple with it and tear it's head -->off! -->sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, -->we have *all* the advantages. --this was a recent discussion on rec.martial-arts. humans definitely don't --have all the advantages. dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for --fighting of one sort or another. --ed --dod #1110 being related to former trainers, i have come to know that humans do have all the advantages (well, at least one anyway). it is a little known fact that a dog will involuntarily regurgitate and release an object that is too large to swallow. i was told that if i were ever attacked by a dog i should ball my hand in a fist and force it down the dog's throat. the dog would naturally gag and release, and become momentarily disoriented. this commonly happens to humans when we go to a doctor and have our throats examined ( proof positive ). in the time during the dog's disorientation, the next move would be to wrap an arm about the dog throat in a choke hold manner and constrict with all your might until the dog lapses into unconsciousness ( from lack of oxygen and halting blood flow ). finally, run like the wind to get away from the local area should the dog get up again and be really ooooooopsssss. for a second there i thought i was in rec.beatthelivingcrapoutofadog and not rec.motorcycles. till next time. * mike maser | dod#= 0536 | squid rating: 5.333333333333333 * * 9235 pinetree rd. |----------------------------------------------* * sidney, b.c., can. | hopalonga twinfart yuka-yuka excess 400 * * v8l-1j1 | wish list: tridump, mucho guzler, burley * * home (604) 656-6131 | thumpison, or bimotamoeba * * work (604) 721-7297 |*********************************************** * mmaser@sirius.uvic.ca |joke of the month: what did the gay say to the* * university of victoria | indian chief ? * * news: rec.motorcycles | answer: can i bum a couple bucks ? * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104834">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104834" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in response to jerry lotto's post about not putting your helmet on your mirror or else risk damaging the padding from the inside. one of the major causes of mirror breakage is impact with the pavement. laws mandating that all mirrors be protected by helmets might be in order. but seriously... one place to put a helmet is on a, preferably clean, footpeg, hanging from the chin-guard, away from any hot pipes. dod #1110 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104839">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104839" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've recently become father of twins! i don't think i can afford to keep 2 bikes and 2 babies. both babies are staying, so 1 of the harleys is going. 1988 883 xlhd ~4000 mi. (hey, it was my wife's bike :-) well that was pretty uncalled for. (no smile) is our harley manhood feeling challenged? jeff derienzo so, you'd sell your bike, and let her ride around while you have to stay home with the kids? geez, that's a tough choice. andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104840">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104840" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello folks, i'm very happy with my "new" r80gs. my range is 238 miles on 4.8 gallons... that's 50 mpg!! surprisingly, the bike is a real cruiser. i was expecting something rough. she's a sweet backroad honey. and i can go pretty much anyplace i'd take my mountain bike. as far as shaft effect, it's more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion. rev it sitting still (when the driveshaft is not moving) and the bike twists a bit. maybe i don't ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect, but in my opinion a little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence. okay, here are my questions: 1) any recommendations for a home-made fairing? i'd like to keep the wind off my chest, and perhaps my helmet, for comfort at highway speeds (70 mph), yet don't want to (a) screw up the stability or (b) block my vision too much for trail riding. anybody have luck with two-piece detachible fairings? i'd like to make it myself out of plexiglas. 2) i run two lights, the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar. the illumination's excellent that way, with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor (left side); the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right, and it really picks up the periphery (deer lurking, etc.) combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day. but i've heard that bmw alternators don't crank out too much. do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i'm puttering around in the dirt at low rpm? 3) this is embarassing: i'm having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning. i invariably flood the carbs, then go in and read a section of the paper, and then she starts right up. is this a zen thing? 4) the hayne's manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives... yeah, right. what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol? any particular brands of gas that are best? additives? /-----b-o-d-y---i-s---t-h-e---b-i-k-e----------------------------\ | dod# 88888 asphaug@hindmost.lpl.arizona.edu | | '90 kawi 550 zephyr (erik asphaug) | | '86 bmw r80gs | \-----------------------s-o-u-l---i-s---t-h-e---r-i-d-e-r--------/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104841">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104841" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in article <1r16ja$dpa@news.ysu.edu> "ak296@yfn.ysu.edu (john r. daker)" says: in a previous article, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu () says: mike terry asks: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? no mike. it is imposible due to the shaft effect. the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground. dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman well my last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie. the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives an odd feel, but it still wheelies. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104847">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104847" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 "hey, what the hell do you mean by that? you suck. i have a god-given right to express opinions, carry a gun and to not wear a helmet, goddamn it. everything you stand for is stupid." i'd give it an 0.5 on a scale of 10. [analysis and hints deleted] aw, c'mon. the serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points, not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say. the non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish. nope. flames should be *interesting*. around here, guns & helmets are the wallpaper. i personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames. the first does trade ``quality,'' in the sense you mention, for heat. this has a certain surprise value and if done correctly, which i contend was done above, is reasonably entertaining. not everyone in rec.motoland is so easily amused. blaine, as an elder, has seen the superflamers at their peaks (or depths, if you prefer). with that sort of incendiary backdrop, awarding your faltering bic a 0.5 was the purest act of charity. it is true that the flame i posted does not mention anyone's habitual velocity, friends, dinner, or entertainment, it says what it needs to with the appropriate flair and it is short. the weakness of this type of flame is actually that it can easily be taken too far, at which point it becomes trite and unless, of course, your audience has only seen several thousand similarly uninspiring attempts in this arena. in that case, the trite & boring threshold tends to drift away from where you first set it, as yours will, eventually (or not). the other type of flame, which you seem to be glorifying above, ... [blah, blah, blah] ... in summary, blaine, your score for that flame is incorrect. while it may be the wunder-flame, the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses, and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor until you can yank the flame out of blaine's internet port before he can io_close() it, you are in no position to lecture him, grasshopper. you also probably couldn't outrun a tennis ball with a flatulent dog stapled to your posterior, and i'll bet you and your motorcycle lean to the outside while turning. the same goes for anyone who looks like you, too. oh please (yawn), you're slipping further down the scale with each successive attempt. it's so embarrassing to watch. say, you're not from waco, are you? chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104848">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104848" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i know there's already a bmw mailing list, but since it's an r bike only list (and limited to the r80* r100* bikes as well i believe) the list as chartered is geared toward r100/r80 gs/pd/st riders, emphasizing the off road bikes, but there are numerous people on the list with other bmw twins as well, as well as the usual contingent of aspirants. most all boxer talk is welcome. the main list has about 50 subscribers; there is also a digest version which has about 10. we run about 10 to 12 messges to day, mostly technical with little chatter and no flames. subscriptions can be had via e-mail. in the text of a message, send the command: to bmw-gs-request@halfdome.sf.ca.us for the main list and bmw-gs-digest-request@haldfome.sf.ca.us for the digest version. your "from" address will be used to determine where you will receive the it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless, of course, the existing list failed to meet the readers' -- bob pasker -- rbp@netcom.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104851">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104851" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hi boys and girls. i just bought a beemer r80gs and realized abruptly that i am a grad student. i first sold my truck yesterday but i need to sell my zephyr too. if i can sell it this month, great ... insurance and tags both run out in a couple of weeks. otherwise i'll tag and insure it and see what happens. it's a very sweet bike. 6100 miles, almost all highway (az-wy-co last summer, plus some great rides between here and the border. purchased new exactly one year ago (apr '92), it's a '90 model. it has a good fairing and a luggage rack. red; very clean. perfect maintenance, no bullshit. i'll spare any further details other than to say (1) i want to keep it, and (2) somebody 5'7" +/- 5" will fit it like a charm. not a bike for big people, but not a small bike. standard, upright positioning and good-looking. smooth power, great brakes, good karma. /-----b-o-d-y---i-s---t-h-e---b-i-k-e----------------------------\ | dod# 88888 asphaug@hindmost.lpl.arizona.edu | | '90 kawi 550 zephyr (erik asphaug) | | '86 bmw r80gs | \-----------------------s-o-u-l---i-s---t-h-e---r-i-d-e-r--------/ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104854">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104854" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |>yes, even when steering no hands you do something quite similar |>to countersteering. basically to turn left, you to a quick wiggle |>of the bike to the right first, causing a counteracting lean to |>occur to the left. |this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me. if by "quick wiggle |to the right" you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right |before turning to the left, what is the input to the steering |mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old |"shove-shove"? well, as many a bored bike tourer can tell you, the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean. say you want to turn left. you push your body off to the left. to do this, you have to push against something, and the only thing to push against is the ground (through the bike). well, the apple guy (wozniak? or was that churchill?) says that the ground will push you right back. so, you pushed yourself off to the left by pushing on the ground to the right, and the ground pushed back toward the left. well, that push is on both wheels. the rear wheel doesn't care (unless you have serious bearing problems) (except of course on the spagthorpe dragonfly, which had the revolutionary countersteering-contra-shaft-drive rear end), but the front wheel has trail. if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch, the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right. hey, there we are. no-hands counter- dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104857">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104857" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : now for those who have read this far - : why did it rev at idle like that? is water in the fuel an : acceptable reaason or were they having me on? sound like the pilot circuit was say lean/clogged. i don't think water would cause a problem like this, but? : apparently the oil pump is doing its job, and there was plenty : of oil. why did it seize? see above. were you by chance coasting when it stuck? on a two stroke you only have (substantial) lubrication when you are giving the bike gas. if it was lean on the pilot, that's why it stuck. : oh, btw - the motor had been rebuilt just before i left adelaide, so had : done about 1600 miles when it blew. it was rebuilt because it had been : seized at some time before we got it, and it looked like that seizure : had happened at low mileage, because there were still hone marks in the : bore. : the rebuild we did consisted of a total tear down, new piston, rings, : small end bearing, and new gearbox bearings. big end and rod judged : ok. : any ideas folks? you mentioned an aftermarket carb? (i deleted the text) looks like (to me) that's where your problem is. : zebee johnstone dod #605 | you don't own an italian motorcycle <m> merfman _/ \_ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104860">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104860" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 nmm>from: nielsmm@imv.aau.dk (niels mikkel michelsen) nmm>subject: how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm>the other day, it was raining cats and dogs, therefor i was going only to nmm>the speed limit, on nothing more, on my bike. this guy in his bmw was nmm>driving 1-2 meters behind me for 7-800 meters and at the next red light i nmm>calmly put the bike on its leg, walked back to this car, he rolled down the nmm>window, and i told him he was a total idiot (and the reason why). nmm>did i do the right thing? nmm>yours truly : nmm> niels mikkel well, sounds great to me! when i have a real bdi cager tailgating me, i've found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal. you will, obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this. it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him/her/it may mean that something is wrong. sometimes yes, sometimes no. bdi cagers usually move back then. hyperagressive assholes just move closer. (something about testosterone-stimulated behavior, i think.) it's kinda like waving a red flag at a bull. all in all, if you can't move over and let the jerk by, it's better than nothing... tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --gene spafford, 1992 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104862">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104862" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 (robert d castro) rdc8@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu writes:- when/how do you decide that it is too windy to ride? if you get blown over riding your bike down your drive at home then it's too windy to ride...=8^d. p.s. check nearby trees for wind strength and see how badly they are being affected by the wind. alan duncan dept of computer science, ducati 900ss edinburgh university,scotland. \_\_\_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_\_ \_\_\_ \_ **** **** **** \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ ** ** ** ** ** ** \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_\_ \_ \_ ***** ** ** ** ** s s \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ ** ** ** ** ** \_\_\_ \_\_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ ** **** **** 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104869">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104869" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello folks, i'm very happy with my "new" r80gs. my range is 238 miles on 4.8 gallons... that's 50 mpg!! surprisingly, the bike is a real cruiser. i was expecting something rough. she's a sweet backroad honey. and i can go pretty much anyplace i'd take my mountain bike. as far as shaft effect, it's more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion. rev it sitting still (when the driveshaft is not moving) and the bike twists a bit. maybe i don't ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect, but in my opinion not to start *another* shaft effect discussion, but the twist you feel when revving sitting still is due to the larger fly-wheels that the bmw r-bikes (maybe k's too, dunno) use. if you whack the throttle at stop lights, it'll really rock the bike over (to the right). <snip> <snip> 2) i run two lights, the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar. the illumination's excellent that way, with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor (left side); the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right, and it really picks up the periphery (deer lurking, etc.) combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day. but i've heard that bmw alternators don't crank out too much. do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i'm puttering around in the dirt at low rpm? please post if you come to any conclusion on this. i am thinking of putting a light on each cylinder guard on my r100s, and was wondering whether i was going to have to switch lights off every time i was under 5,000 rpm :-) | '90 kawi 550 zephyr (erik asphaug) | "this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday." - temple of the dog sea-bass sears --> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu --> dod#516 <-- |stanley, id.| '79 yamaha xs750f -- '77 bmw r100s -- '85 toyota 4runner -- | nyc, ny. | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles104870">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104870" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, txd@esd.3com.com (tom dietrich) says: i bought it, i tried it: it is, truly, the miracle spooge. my chain is lubed, my wheel is clean, after 1000km. i too have seen the miracle of maxima chain wax. not only does it lube and stay where it's supposed to, but i swear i can ride faster now. yes, not only does it lube your chain, it makes you a better rider. and more attractive to members of the opposing sex. and smarter. and.... works really well on my 'bike too. |tony kidson | ** pgp 2.2 key by request ** |voice +44 81 466 5127 | |morgan towers, | the cat has had to move now |e-mail(in order) | |morgan road, | as i've had to take the top |tony@morgan.demon.co.uk | |bromley, | off of the machine. |tny@cix.compulink.co.uk | |england br1 3qe|honda st1100 -=<*>=- dod# 0801|100024.301@compuserve.com| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104871">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104871" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 stanford.edu (eric bong) writes:>>in article <c5y8gp.1an@cbnews.cb.att.com>, a bicycling technique i've employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog i have a bayonet in the factory scabbard from a swedish mouser mounted to the handlebars of my zuki'. that 10" blade and my long arms do quite well thank you. ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... hey! where did they go? you don't think .... naahh. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104873">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104873" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 when riding in a group, generally speaking, do most people mind when another rider tags along? i had the distinct feeling i may not have been welcome when i tagged along with a group last weekend. yer welcome to ride with me and my friends any time. just introduce your self at the earliest opportunity and say "mind if i rid with you guys?" ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... hey! where did they go? you don't think .... naahh. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104874">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104874" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ]to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips: ] are they comfortable? do they transmit a lot of ] vibration? how do they compare to the stock grips? ] to foam grips? i don't have the grips, but have looked into getting them. it's my understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard on the 93 bikes (k1100rs, k1100lt, etc). it's also my understanding that the heater resides _inside_ the bar itself so if anything i would suspect it would reduce vibration by providing more bar end mass. i don't see why they wouldn't work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that it might cause the foam to deteriorate or something. hard to belive considering they do fine in the 100+ degree texas summers. 'course, i don't actually have them so you can save your flames. joe senner joe@rider.cactus.org bmw mailing list bmw@rider.cactus.org austin area ride mailing list ride@rider.cactus.org 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104875">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104875" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 (robert d castro) rdc8@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu writes:- when/how do you decide that it is too windy to ride? handlebar mounted windshields on windy days are no fun at all. it has been windy as hell down here for a week or so and it plays hell with the steering. oh, i still ride. i just bitch a lot about it! ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... hey! where did they go? you don't think .... naahh. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104877">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104877" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get 2-3 day delivery. once they had to backorder something, but they sent me a card to say it would be two weeks. came in 10 days or so. always be satisfied, with ca and in life. / rich sturges (h) 703-536-4443 \ / nswc - carderock division (w) 301-227-1670 \ / "i speak for no one else, and listen to the same." \ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104882">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104882" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 +>[my problem] turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs40 +>carb. i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws +>tight on a bike, but i never thought that i had to do that +>on the screws inside of a carb. at least it was roadside +>fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time. +gee, i always figured that it was the loose screws on/in the _rider_ +that were most likely to cause any problems. did you check for that +at the same time? that is very true. however, screws have been loose on this rider for quite some time, so they had been taken into account. russian roulette is fun 5 out of 6 times paul blumstein, paulb@harley.tti.com, dod #36, abate, ama, hog, doh #2 kd6laa, marc, arrl, platypus #240, qrp-arpci, naswa, lwca, rcma (cala905) transaction technology, inc., santa monica, ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104887">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104887" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 +>this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog's conformance to +>a "psychological norm" that may not actually apply to a particular dog. +>i've tried it with some success before, but it won't work on a charlie manson +>dog or one that's really, *really* stupid. a large irish setter taught me +>this in *my* yard (apparently his territory) one day. i'm sure he was playing +>a game with me. the game was probably "kill the very angry neighbor" before +>he can dispense the terrible punishment. +what, a dog weighs 150lb maybe, at max? you can't handle it? +you have, i presume, thumbs? grapple with it and tear it's head +off! +sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, +we have *all* the advantages. look, if you are worried about being attacked by a dog, just carry some "spot" remover with you :-). russian roulette is fun 5 out of 6 times paul blumstein, paulb@harley.tti.com, dod #36, abate, ama, hog, doh #2 kd6laa, marc, arrl, platypus #240, qrp-arpci, naswa, lwca, rcma (cala905) transaction technology, inc., santa monica, ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104888">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104888" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in my view, drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence. it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue, but a genuine safety issue. so if you bring up the subject on rec.moto, admitting having been caught dwi, and looking for sympathy over the consequences, don't expect people to respond with warm wishes. dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon by not being able to drive for a year, it was close enough to jail. and, btw, where the hell did i ask for sympathy. i asked what to do about insurance, not about my _life_. fwiw, if everyone was _honest_ on this group, i'd others besides me that read this have had a dwi too. andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104892">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104892" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [sorry, had to take out tx.motorcycles because my news server rejected it. -- hesh] : it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists : unless, of course, the existing list failed to meet the readers' : needs. you presumed you needed to "split" out a gs list. by implication of your "split", a plain ol' bmw list wouldn't meet the gs riders' needs. good point. the "list" actually started out as an extension of my gs v. fj shootout list, which is why it got that name. since inception, however, other boxer-interested folks have joined and the conversation has not always been "geared" to gs/pd/st-specific topics. for the sake of not forcing the split issue, how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw-gs to just bmw? would that make everybody happy? when i raised the "to expand or not to expand/that is the question" question on the list itself, there were mixed feelings. the list has always been open to anyone with a non-bouncing "from:" line and there has been general agreement that only boxer-related stuff is appropriate. almost all of the subscribers own r80/r100 gs/st/pd bikes, although some r, rt and rs owners are also on it. at this point, my main interest for the list is to preserve the peace and comraderie while at the same time providing as wide access as possible. the list is fairly technical, with "how do i do this?", "what kind of that should i get?" kinds of questions. there has yet to be any non-bmw bashing, k bike bashing, or "any bmw mfg'd after 1962 is a piece of shit" bashing. such posts are, by consent of the governed, proscribed. if the simple name change would make a significant difference to the net.boxer.owners, then i am not going to stand in the way of progress. so, hesh, let me turn the question around: have you (or has anyone else) not joined the list because you felt your boxer was excluded? -- bob pasker -- rbp@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104894">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104894" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there's also billy jack, the wild one, smokey and the bandit (where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes), and a video tape documentary on the hell's angels i found in a rental store once don't forget robert blake in "electra glide in blue" (where else do you get to see a full-dress harley playing with dirt bikes?). and if you're going to count smokey and the bandit, then you darn well better include "pee-wee's big adventure". jonathan e. quist jeq@lachman.com lachman technology, incorporated dod #094, kotpp, kotcf '71 cl450-k4 "gleep" naperville, il __ there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, \/ followed by the words "daddy! yay!" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104896">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104896" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (mike serafin) says: a poser squid was the guy i saw yesterday on my way home. similar attire as above sans jacket (it is april in texas ya know), but he is riding down the amazing. and i thought only california got april. dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104897">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104897" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? as the owner of a v65 sabre (shaftie), i can answer from personal experience: aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! chuck smythe (dod #50) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104898">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104898" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : i was posting to alt.locksmithing about the best methods for securing : a motorcycle. i got several responses referring to the cobra lock : (described below). has anyone come across a store carrying this lock : in the chicago area? : any other feedback from someone who has used this? what about the new yamaha "cyclelok" ? from the photo in motorcyclist, it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock, except it folds in five places. it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar. anyone had any experience with them, how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections ? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104900">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104900" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless. i am sitting at a light about 1 - 2 car lengths behind a car, a wise decsion. suddenly i hear screeching tires. i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it's the moroon flying up right behind me, in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike. luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel. i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident? suggestions? i've only ever done it in an automatic. i was sitting in my olds, in the winter, at a light, when i heard screeching behind me. i managed to dart into the left turn lane before the sliding jetta wound up half where i was and half in the parked car beside where i was. i've never had occasion to do it on a bike, but i imagine that it would be even easier, because you could slip beside the car in front. giving a gander at the mirrors while at a light will give you time to get the clutch out smoothly when you notice trouble, instead of waiting for the i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104910">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104910" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 driving while impared. it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs. like non-sudafed cold medicines? 1/2 :-) -jeff deeney- dod#0498 nctr '88 xr600-shamu jld@hpfcla.fc.hp.com ama#540813 cohvco '81 cb750f-llamaha the sound of fresh rain run-off splashing from the roof reminded me of the sound of urine splashing into a filthy texaco latrine. -jack handey 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104911">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104911" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 when/how do you decide that it is too windy to ride? when the bugs are splatting on the side of my helmet instead of the faceshield. when semis are on their side in the downwind ditch. when i can't see the road for all the tumbleweeds rolling past. when the airborne sand/gravel is sandblasting my paint job. when all of the above is happening at once in the middle of wonderful well, it *was* gusting to 87 mph. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104913">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104913" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 orating with wild abandon, prange@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (henry prange) offers: %the grips on my gs are a wonderful thing in the winter and no problem %in the summer. vibration? bmw's don't vibrate. everyone knows that. i'd agree with henry. the grips are really nice to have in winter, and aren't noticably different from 'normal' grips in summer. my only complaint is that the 'low' setting might as well be 'off'. this has been complained about by every reviewer, official and unofficial, that's ever talked about these grips. the 'high' setting is often too high for use with lightweight summer gloves when things just get a bit nippy, but since 'low' doesn't produce a noticable effect, i end up turning the grips on and off to keep the temperature about right. this generally isn't a problem when wearing thicker winter gloves. when i asked the dealer if they could fix it, i received a consoling pat on the back, and their sincere apologies for the poor design (actually, i was told they worked just like they were suppose to). vibration? what's that? i ride a bmw twin. you can barely tell if the engine is fired up or not most of the time, smoother than silk ken wallich <wallich@ncd.com> ken@wallich.com ~ kmw@al.org ~ [...]decwrl!vixie!amber!ken 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104914">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104914" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 another good place for your helmet is your mirror (!). i kid you not. if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars, your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable be careful that you do not have any weight of the helmet resting on the mirror. it will depress the foam liner in the helmet. that is not the kind of foam that bounces back, like foam rubber. its purpose in life is to absorb energy in an impact as it is compressed by your noggin. if your mirror compresses it, there is that much less energy absorbing capacity left to cushon your noggin in a crash. i found the right handlebar to be a good spot, if on the sidestand. hang with the chinbar facing up, balanced across the grip and brake lever such that the weight of the helmet doesn't compress any of the chinbar foam. this is more challanging with an open face helmet. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104915">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104915" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i know of no law, either on the books or proposed, that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to. so you really see no problem with banning them from places to which you don't want to go? i have not heard, or discussed with non-motorcycling persons, or read of any popular movement, either in the country as a whole, or in any of the states, that is out to 'get' motorcycles. talk to somebody in the insurance industry, particularly after a few drinks. then talk to my mom (no booze required). :^) one more thing, if the public is misinformed and misunderstands as you state, what are you and the others posting on this doing to correct the ever heard of the dod? :^) ever since i hit my teens i have found that there were terrible wrongs to right, attitudes to adust... [blah, blah, blah] fortunately, i grew up! :-) nah, you just became complacent that so long as your little quarter acre is safe, you get your little tax deduction, and no act of the government intrudes, in too direct and obvious a way, into your little day to day life, you just don't give a shit. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104918">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104918" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 1. all of us that argue about gyroscopes, etc., throughly understand the technique of countersteering. including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through a corner?? well... all the way through a decreasing-radius corner, anyway... this is really the only thing we disagree on. maybe we should agree to disagree?? ok (but i'm right!) :^) the official line here (though i do have my doubts about it) is that the front brake is applied first, followed by the rear brake, the idea being that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place. if that's the "official line" taught in those rider education classes you were refering to, that also don't teach countersteering, i have to question the quality of the classes. the "official line" in msf curricula is as i described. maximum braking is achieved by applying both brakes equally, when the weight distribution is nominally even and both tires have equal normal forces, and easing off on the rear to prevent locking it, and increasing braking on the front, as more traction is available to the front due to increased normal force due to weight shift. the "official line" you have been taught seems ineffective on the face of it. applying the rear brake after the front is not taking advantage of all the traction available to the rear at time 0, and is halving the available braking power by using only the front at time 0. saying, "brake until the tire just begins to slide" is next to useless advice to a newbie. he has to go out and slide the tire to find out where that is! it also gives him zero information from which to develop a braking technique that changes as the braking and corresponding weight shift develop. if you don't slide the tyre, you have no way of knowing whether you've achieved maximum braking or not. i'm not suggesting that you should always aim to brake as hard as you possibly can - but if you want to find the limits of the machine, you have to go beyond them. not necessarily true. "chirping" the tire indicates impending lockup (on most surfaces), and serves as a good guide to newbies to indicate maximum braking. i agree that totally locking the front occasionally makes one a better rider, but it is a manuver best saved for an experienced rider, unless you have one of those outrigger bikes like code used to use. in any case, for maximum braking, if (as i suggested) you aim to keep both wheels just on the point of sliding, then you'll be doing exactly as *you* suggest!! true, but from the point of view of how to best *teach* riding skills (which is how this discussion started), "keep both wheels just on the point of sliding" is nearly useless information. you need to teach a *technique*, or at least a strategy, to achieve this. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104919">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104919" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 so how do i steer when my hands aren't on the bars? (open budweiser in left hand, camel cigarette in the right, no feet allowed.) if i lean, and the bike turns, am i countersteering? countersteering is a method for *leaning* the bike. another method is leaning. once leaned, the bike turns all by itself. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104920">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104920" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> various posts about shafties can't do wheelies: |> >: > no mike. it is imposible due to the shaft effect. the centripital effects |> >: > of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift |> >: > off the ground |> >good point john...a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my |> >bmw r80gs; i dumped the clutch at 5,000rpm (hey, ito nly revved to 7 or so) and |> >you know what? he was right! |> uh, folks, the shaft doesn't have diddleysquatpoop to do with it. i can get |> the front wheel off the ground on my /5, ferchrissake! you may have been able to bounce the front up but not actually do a "wheelie". see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front. this is why a shaft bike should accelerate if it starts scraping in a corner...... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104922">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104922" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 also, nc recently (last few years) decided that due to the fact there are constantly people on the road drunk driving, they will raise their awareness of it by making stricter laws, and as such, now i believe nc has the toughest laws for dwi (while not necessarily increasing any amount of awareness, or "kills" on the highways - meaning it's only made a difference at sentencing) automatic revocation of your license for a year. i'm not sure it's the "toughtest" law around, but nc has absolutely no sense of humor with respect to driving laws, anyway. i think they put you in jail and sell your first child into slavery for passing a school bus... a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from .1 to .08. it faces stiff opposition in the senate. recently, the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots, and when they hit .07, put them on a course dodging cones. they failed, and will probably change their votes as a result. for some bizarre reason, nc is the only state where the governer has no veto power over legislation coming out of the state congress, so his opinion on the matter is moot. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104924">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104924" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 rolls-royce owned by a non-british firm? ye gods, that would be the end of civilization as we know it. why not? ford owns aston-martin and jaguar, general motors owns lotus and vauxhall. rover is only owned 20% by honda. | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104925">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104925" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i have an '89 kawasaki kx 80. it is in mint condition and starts on the first kick every time. i have outgrown the bike, and am considering selling it. i was told i should ask around $900. does that sound right or should it be higher/lower? also, i am looking for a used zx-7. how much do i have to spend, and what year should i look for to get a bike without paying an arm and a leg???? thanks for the help! rob fusi rwf2@lehigh.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104927">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104927" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i've never ridden pillion very much but recently had an excellent experience passengering with dave edmondson at pilot while in london. i found that it upset the bike much less if i rode with the pilot, that is, if i looked over his shoulder and anticipated when i should hold on hard for braking or acceleration. i tried to always look over the inside shoulder on corners and move as little as possible, leaving dave to manage me and the bike as he normally would the bike and hard acceleration can be quite unnerving as the feeling of being spit off the back is hard to fight. similarly, i held on to the grab handles tightly when dave needed to brake so as not to mash him to a pulp (i'm a lot bigger than he is...). reaching around him and pushing off the tank seemed like it would be very awkward and make it even harder for him to manage. on the rare occasions when i carry a passenger myself, i absolutely refuse to carry anyone who is not properly accoutered for riding. that's helmet, jacket, gloves, stout pants and shoes/boots as a minimum. it's not my responsibility to provide this gear, but it's my responsibility to require it if they want to ride. and i agree with an earlier poster: if you've not had much experience carrying a particular passenger and especially if you've not carried many passengers before, take a few gentler rides of some duration before you head off to a difficult road like mines/mt. hamilton. that's a nasty place to find yourself in trouble. godfrey digiorgi - ramarren@apple.com | dod #0493 ama#489408 rule #1: never sell a ducati. | "the street finds its own rule #2: always obey rule #1. | uses for things." -wg ------ ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit ------ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104932">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104932" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 & can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models & really mean. "cb" is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline 4-cylinder engine. frank ball 1ur-m frankb@sad.hp.com (707) 794-4168 work, hmmm ... . my first bike, a cb125s, was a single . . . 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104943">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104943" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something. i've weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method: slow down to screw up dog's triangulation of target, then take off and laugh at the dog, now far behind you. this time, it didn't work because i didn't have time. riding up the hill leading to my house, i encountered a liver-and-white springer spaniel (no relation to the springer softail, or the springer spagthorpe, a close relation to the spagthorpe viking). actually, the dog encountered me with intent to but i digress: i was riding near the (unpainted) centerline of the roughly 30-foot wide road, doing between forty and sixty clicks (30 mph for the velocity-impaired). the dog shot at me from behind bushes on the left side of the road at an impossibly high speed. i later learned he had been accelerating from the front porch, about thirty feet away, heading down the very gently sloped approach to the side of the road. i saw the dog, and before you could say sipde, he was on me. boom! i took the dog in the left leg, and from the marks on the bike my leg was driven up the side of the bike with considerable force, making permanent marks on the plastic parts of the bike, and cracking one panel. i think i saw the dog spin around when i looked back, but my memory of this moment is hazy. i next turned around, and picked the most likely looking house. the apologetic woman explained that the dog was not seriously hurt (cut mouth) and hoped i was not hurt either. i could feel the pain in my shin, and expected a cool purple welt to form soon. sadly, it has not. so i'm left with a tender shin, and no cool battle scars! interestingly, the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course. the not inconsiderable impact did not push the bike off course, nor did it cause me to put the bike out of control from some gut reaction to the sudden impact. delayed pain may have helped me here, as i didn't feel a sudden sharp pain that i can remember. what worries me about the accident is this: i don't think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was. this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area, but i was riding around the speed limit. i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog, but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at 15-30 mph. for that matter, how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit 30 mph by the end? i eagerly await comment. ryan cousinetc.|1982 yamaha vision xz550 -black pig of inverness|live to ride kotrb |1958 ajs 500 c/s -king rat |to work to dod# 0863 |i'd be a squid if i could afford the bike... |flame to ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org | vancouver, bc, canada |live . . . * slmr 2.1a * "he's hurt." "dammit jim, i'm a doctor -- oh, right." |computer dynamics bbs 604-255-9937(hst) 604-986-9937(v32)| |vancouver, bc, canada - easy access, low rates, friendly sysop| 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104944">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104944" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ps. i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase. ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also. squeaky bmw riders. ray shea "they wound like a very effective method." unisql, inc. --leah unisql!ray@cs.utexas.edu some days i miss d. boon real bad. dod #0372 : team twinkie : '88 hawk gt 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104946">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104946" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello all, on my bike i have hazard lights (both front and back turn signals flash). since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route. just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on. i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the 2 1/2 seconds to make the transaction. taking gloves off, getting money out of coin changer/pocket, making transaction, putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll. i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth. my question, is this a good/bad thing to do? any others tend to do the same? just curious o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> o&o> rob castro | email - rdc8@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu | live for today 1983 kz550ltd | phone - (212) 854-7617 | for today you live! dod# nyc-1 | new york, new york, usa | rc (tm) beleive it or not: ny state once considered eliminating tolls for motor- cycles based simply on the fact that motos clog up toll booths. but then mario realized the foolishness of trading a few hundred k $`s a year for some relief in traffic congestion. too bad he won`t take that sumpreme court justice job - i thought we might be rid of him forever. --matt dennie internet: mmd.wbst207v@xerox.com xerox corporation, rochester, ny (usa) "reaching consensus in a group often is confused with finding the right answer." -- norman maier 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104947">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104947" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i have a question about tires for my guzzi. it is a '75 850-t. the tires that were on it when i just bought it are old and cracked. i do not have an owners manual for it (yet), but the tires listed in the haynes manual are: front, 3,50 h 18 ; rear 4.10 h 18, and pressures recommended are 26 front and 33 rear. oddly, the pressure for the same tire on the t-3 is listed at 29 psi instead. anyone know the reason? as i know though, the pressure i should run at is that recommended by the manufacturer of the new tires i purchase. the real question i have is this. the old tires that are on the bike are for the front, a metzler touring special, 4.10 h 18, and for the rear an avon roadrunner 4.70 h 18, (120/90) h 18 as marked on each tire. both are larger than that listed in the haynes manual. what does the owners manual recommend, and was it common to go up one size for this bike? also, this will be my first motorcycle with innertubes. any comments on the various manufacturers inner tube qualities? the above sizes are inches (except for the additional mark on the current rear tire). what is the best metric match? the local bmw dealer thought 100/90 h 18 on the front and 120/90 h 18 on the back. he also happens to be very good at getting close to matching mail order prices. i am thinking of going with a metzler me33 laser (possibly comp k) on the front and me88 on the back, both in mbs variety if possible (the longer lasting belting system). i already use the me33 on both the vision and fj for the front, and like it, and i thought that with the shaft drive behavior and torque from the guzzi that the me88 might give more predictable back end control and sliding behavior than a me55 might, as well as giving much better tire milage life. any comments? a friend told me he thought that my bike had boranni rims which are very good, but are relatively soft and have delicate sidewalls. i do not wish to mount the tires myself this first time, so aside from warning the shop to be careful, any other comments i should make? i havn't looked at the rim to check out the make yet, if it is marked. he just told me late yesterday and i havn't had a chance to check the rim type. on another note. i will remove the ugly (but in good shape....anyone want it?) vetter fairing, and i will run without a windscreen for a while, but eventually i would like a simple rounded cafe' style quarter fairing for it. it could be fork/handlebar mounted. any suggestions? is there such a thing as a frame mounted quarter fairing of the cafe' style for this bike? how about lower bars/clip-ons for it? i would like to restore the bike into a good condition runner with a few modern updates, but while not being historically exactly accurate still have it reflect relatively well a representation of the cafe' style. (yes i know to be picky, that period really predates this bike....it is just that this bike has such potential for _that_ look.) -----------------------------edward walsh----hewlett-packard company------- edw@boi.hp.com disk memory division, ms475 (208)323-2174 p.o. box 15 boise,idaho 83707 89fj1200;82xz550rj(vision);75guzzi850-t;dod#98 -----------------------------edward walsh----hewlett-packard company------- edw@boi.hp.com disk memory division, ms475 (208)396-2174 p.o. box 15 boise,idaho 83707 89fj1200;82xz550rj(vision);75guzzi850-t;dod#98 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104948">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104948" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [stuff chopped] here is the part that concerned me. the "hg" and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out, where said "hg" members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those 600 beasts. at this point, one decided to see how much rubber a katana 600 could deposit in the drive. squids, i thought to myself. but i was appalled that the salesdroids/manager not only condoned this behavior, but encourged it, to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour. the girl that was riding pillion on another bike, seemed rather hormonal about this display, and urged her "pilot" to quickly catch up. the others followed, making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt. um, you gotta understand these "salesdroids" as you call them. they look at it this way: burn lotsa tire; make lotsa money. i'm sure s/ he knew how stupid the "hg" was. would you seriously stop them from burning off a seasons worth of tire?? the squids probably would buy metzelers or some good low profile tire anyhow... yep. them droids sure a sneaky bastards! ;) regards, ted. university of toronto computer engineering '89 fzr600: i'm taking a ride with my best friend. dod#:886699 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104951">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104951" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 if i'm riding i would far sooner have the pillion hanging on to the bike, rather than me, because i find that their weight can cause *me* to move, and that can upset the balance of the bike. most of the pillions i see over here hold the grabrail. the really good ones don't hang on to anything unless violent acceleration is taking place. hmmmmn...don't you ride with your sweetheart? only in my dreams.... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104957">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104957" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> final trajectory. too bad it didn't notice the car approaching at 50+mph |> from the other direction. |> i got a closeup view of the our poor canine friend's noggin careening off |> the front bumper, smacking the asphalt, and getting runover by the front |> tire. it managed a pretty good yelp, just before impact. (peripheral |> imminent doom?) i guess the driver didn't see me or they probably would have |> swerved into my lane. the squeegeed pup actually got up and headed back |> home, but i haven't seen it since. same thing to me. everyday the same dog would chase my bicycle. the owners thought it was cute. even after i got the moto, the stupid dog would do the same thing. then one day, i was coming home in the opposite lane...the fluff with teeth ran to get me and played momentum sharing with a 73 dodge pick. the owners tried to blame me for driving down street when i did. i lived in a wierd town. = the beav |mike beavington|bellnorthernresearch ottawa,ont,canada| dod:9733= = seca 400->seca 400->rz350->seca750->suzuki550->seca650turbo->v65sabre = = (-> 1994 gts1000 ...can't afford the '93) | mbeaving@bnr.ca = = parking spaces? we don't need no steenkin' parking spaces! = 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104959">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104959" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> apparently that last post was a little hasy, since i |> called around to more places and got quotes for less |> than 600 and 425. liability only, of course. |> plus, one palced will give me c7c for my car + liab on the bike for |> only 1350 total, which ain't bad at all. |> so i won't go with the first place i called, that's |> fer sure. nevertheless, dwi is f*ckin serious. hope you've got some brains now. mike beavington mbeaving@bnr.ca * these opinions are my own and not my companies'. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104963">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104963" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 also, is there a law or something that requires nyc to keep it's street empty of potholes greater than a certain depth? i (rather my bike) hahahahahaahahha whahwuhuhahuah!!!! that's a good one!! really, stop! i can't breathe!! bite your tongue. those of us who actually ride in nyc on a daily basis could not live without those potholes. it'll ruin the flavor. it's not enough just to dodge taxis, buses, pedistrians, bicycle messengers, and bdi's on a block by block basis. those potholes always makes for that sudden randomness that makes it all so much fun. besides, where else can you think of that allows you to constantly test your panic braking, shocks, and dirt-riding abilities all on city streets. you smooth asphalt canyon carvers don't know what you're missing. 8-)........ i was laughing about the law part. i've driven thru soho...manahattan, _i_ know what' you're talking 'bout... not that durham, nc is any better... (well, maybe a little bit anyway, but the nc dot takes more money from road taxes and puts it in their own pockets and into the pockets of the guys building the large condos that need their own roads than they do back into fixing roads, but hey, the local paper did a report of this last summer, and boy, am i glad i don't work for the dot, 'cause they got shat on, bigtime....wonder who lost their jobs? ed? got any idea?) andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104965">
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 joe, i'm sorry you felt i was pissing on your list. no disparagement was intended and i would be most interested to know what i said that made you feel that way. i am not suggesting that your list is superflous nor that it will not serve a need. i just would like not to see the boxer contingent split, but there is certainly enough net for more than one list. -- bob pasker -- rbp@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104968">
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 : folks, : i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project. how 'bout "big faus and little halsey" with robert redford and that little guy that was in bonnie & clyde. good flick, imho. | michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr | | internet: nelson@seahunt.imat.com dod #0735 | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104972">
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 has anyone any experience with the (new?) yamaha cyclelok ? it looks like it uses the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock, but unlike a u lock, it is hinged in 5 places and opens out to a large rectangle (longer length than any u lock i have seen, plus it folds down to real small), so you could lock the rear tire to a steel post for example. i was curious as to how well the jointed sections would stand up to attack ? tony jones (ant@cray.com, ..!uunet!cray!ant) cmcs codegeneration group, software division cray research inc, 655f lone oak drive, eagan, mn 55121 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104974">
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 : i was posting to alt.locksmithing about the best methods for securing : a motorcycle. i got several responses referring to the cobra lock : (described below). has anyone come across a store carrying this lock : in the chicago area? : any other feedback from someone who has used this? what about the new yamaha "cyclelok" ? it is far from new. it's been around almost as long as dirt. from the photo in motorcyclist, it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock, except it folds in five places. it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar. anyone had any experience with them, how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections ? i had one for one of my old bikes. worked fine. i'm sure, being rigid and nonflexible, that the "cyclelok" would yield instantly to the freeze and break routine. but then, for $40, what do ya want? chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104975">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104975" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well, just got all the parts replaced that needed replced (sprokets+chain) and notice that engine still taps like it did before. all our local 'experts' say it's the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that. i would like any advice anyone had. i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places. is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of? any problems anyone else has encountered? i ride a 1981 yamaha exciter 250cc (stop laughing, it's tiny, but it's shiny) | matthew sheppard clarkson university sheppamj@sun.soe.clarkson.edu | | i'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.anon | | i don't want a pickle. dod#477 tep#477 ride free (8^]..etcetera.. | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104977">
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 % request for opinions: % which is better - a one-piece aerostitch or a two-piece aerostitch? like most everyone else, i ended up getting two different sizes for the top and bottom. my top is a 46l and the bottom is a 48l. for the bottom, the waist is far too large, but the thighs fit just right (the 46 had a better waist, but cut off the circulation in my legs, i have large, muscular thighs, and no, i didn't use the thighmaster to get them :-). the jacket fits me ok in the chest, slightly snug at the waist, and too small in the arms. i can't imagine finding a one-piece size that would have fit correctly, as even the 2 piece has it's problems (strange, since my v-pilot jacket fits great all over, and when i tried the matching pants, they fit like a glove as well). i can only assume the models aero design uses to design its suits are in some way different from us real folks. also, even though it's related to convienience, you look pretty damn wierd walking around with the tops and bottoms while running errands. i've gotten some really suspicious looks, and sweated a lot while in a store wearing the whole suit, since you can't fit the top and bottom in any motorcycle storage device yet devised (except the trunk in my sidecar rig :-). with the two piece, i unzip the pants (i generally leave the two pieces zipped together, primarily because the pants fall down unless i pull the cheesy elastic belt-type band real tight), stuff them in one of my spacious bmw saddlebags (the pants just fit), and run errands just wearing the jacket. actually, if i know i'll be running errands, i just wear my v-pilot jacket, but that's just me... as far as crash protection, i'd say that both suits are probably equal. it seems that for weather protection, if anything the 2 piece provides a little more because of the jacket overlapping the pants by 3 inches. the 2 piece is probably a little less comfortable around the waist, just because of the extra layer of stuff, but maybe not. so i'd have to vote for the two piece. despite the slightly odd fit, i still find the suit the most versatile piece of riding clothing i own. wouldn't go long distance without it. ken wallich <wallich@ncd.com> ken@wallich.com ~ kmw@al.org ~ [...]decwrl!vixie!amber!ken ken wallich <wallich@ncd.com> ken@wallich.com ~ kmw@al.org ~ [...]decwrl!vixie!amber!ken 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104978">
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 a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons.\ do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see/do/avoid. plans are to see bryce, zion, arches. is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required? any help would be nice. thank you for your support. spring break, i went through the four corners area and back. the most beautiful stop i made was in utah at the needles overlook. though this is a bit further east than where you appear to be going, i highly recommend it. imho it is far more beautiful than the grand canyon. it was not well marked, but was one of few paved roads off of us191 (i was heading north from monticello). in order to get to the right place, i should clarify that it is the needles overlook, and not the recreation area. heading north from monticello, it is the second turnoff, and may have been marked as the anticline overlook. anticline overlook is about 20 (dirt, if this matters to you) miles past the needles overlook. the road out to the overlook is paved and reasonably maintained (i ran it about 70mph). looking out from the overlook was like being god and looking down on the world. if it isn't too far out of your way, you should see it. dan martin | "i can't stand this proliferation of paperwork. martind@spot | its useless to fight the forms. | you've got to kill the people producing them." .colorado.edu | -vladimir p. kabaidze, soviet plant manager 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104979">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104979" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 there have been a *lot* of posts lately about "i wanna buy my first bike - is gsxr/zx/cbr/fzr a good bike to learn on?" etc. i think i'm going to put together a faq on buying a new bike. ravi used to po one all the time. bruce clarke b.c. environment e-mail: bclarke@galaxy.gov.bc.ca make that buying a *first* bike- a new bike is not generally a good first bike... dean woodward | "you want to step into my world? dean@fringe.rain.com | it's a socio-psychotic state of bliss..." '82 virago 920 | -guns'n'roses, 'my world' dod # 0866 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104982">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104982" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'd try it on the vfr, but goddamn competition accessories hasn't mailed my order yet. hell, it's only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff. like a clear rf-200 face sheild, and a can of chain wax... for what it's worth, i got my can in three days from chaparral. that's ups ground from ca to ut, ymmv. the stuff seems to work, and it doesn't i just called them and they said the order went out on the 13th. they're putting a ups tracer on it. watch, it'll be waiting for me at home tonight. :-) | dean cookson / dcookson@mitre.org / 617 271-2714 | dod #207 ama #573534 | | the mitre corp. burlington rd., bedford, ma. 01730 | kotnml / kotb | | "the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop" | '92 vfr750f | | -sam eliott, road hogs mtv 1993 | '88 bianchi limited | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104986">
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 that's a twin-cam, right? yep...i think it's the only cb750 with a 630 chain. after 14 years, it's finally stretching into the "replace" zone. honda 750s don't have the widest of power bands. <sigh> i know .... i know. clayton t. brooks _,,-^`--. from the heart cbrooks@ms.uky.edu 722 pot u o'ky .__,-' * \ of the blue cbrooks@ukma.bitnet lex. ky 40506 _/ ,/ grass and {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!cbrooks 606-257-6807 (__,-----------'' bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104987">
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 on 19 apr 93 21:48:42 gmt, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu said: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? yes, but the _rear_ wheel comes off the ground, not the front. see, it just hops into the air! figure. i know the roads up there in minnesota are pretty bad, but i doubt that they are that bad. i've never realy tried to watch my back tyre but, my 82 maxim 750 will pull the front wheel off the ground if i pop the clutch. admittedly, it is easier with someone on back, maybe that's what keeps the rear tyre down. ;-) john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. eerik j. villberg ** p people for the eerik@iastate.edu ** e eating of 4208 harris street ** t tasty ames ia 50010 ** a animals 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104988">
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 hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v-max, pls kindly comment on its handling . (vmax racing horror story deleted) portland international raceway is now 2-for-2 on v-max'es. v-max - handling? ferget it. actually, a wera racer, william lumsden, considered running a vmax in a superstock. he took it out to talladega gpr for a practice day, and _really_ annoyed the 600 riders -- they usually got caught behind a sideways vmax in the corners, and if they passed him going in, he'd blow by down the straight (usually wobbling). needless to say, since he was 2 seconds faster on a 1977 cb400f, he decided against the vmax. too bad. ray hixon wera #623 expert a single-minded guy 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles104990">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles104990" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i can't help myself. i've tried to be rational, to look the other way, but everytime it happens, its uncontrollable. i hate pre'80s motorcycles. hah. newbie bait. everyone knows the first motorcycle wasn't built until 1893 - there _were_ no pre-'80's motorcycles! at first i thought it was a phase. i though i would get used to them. it didn't happen. i tried gazing at cb750s and 900 customs, but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice (i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps, but i can't figure that part out). you've been watching too much northern exposure. what am i to do? everytime i read a .sig containing some spoked wheel wonder, i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough. why? because our wheels are repairable? i imagine the owner scrapping out his (or her) living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box, tucked in next to their cx500. humph. obviously, more bait. everyone knows you don't discard maytag boxes. even after they've become uninhabitable, they're make a great poor boy's mechanic's creeper. cx500? whazzat? i'm hoping for some deliverance. okay. let's hear you squeal like a pig. i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine, but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching. there must be hope. beware fanatical preaching, lest the residents of waco, texas set up a huge salad bar in your honor... jonathan e. quist jeq@lachman.com lachman technology, incorporated dod #094, kotpp, kotcf '71 cl450-k4 "gleep" naperville, il __ there's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet, \/ followed by the words "daddy! yay!" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105002">
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 <stuff deleted> questions to ask a typical cop: a] in regards to pulling over someone of a minor moving violation (rolling stop, unsignaled lane change, 10ish mph over speed limit,etc.): minor? you put unsignalled lane change in a minor category? now i know who these guys are... jeff goss 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105008">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105008" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well maintained chains, running in oil, without those little rubber 'o' rings to cause frictional losses, might reach 99% efficiency. the average open to the dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making 90% so of the 120 hp produced by my fj1100 engine, 12 hp * (745.7 watts)/1 hp = 8.948 kilowatts is being dumped into 220 leetle tiny o-rings? that's 40.67 watts per o-ring! seems a little *hot*, doncha think? :-o chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105009">
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 one of the reasons i originally liked my current guythingy so much was becase he had a bmw. :) sigh. that's music to my ears, after all the complaining lois did about the seat on my bmw... the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive. echo the movements and lean of your rider. look over the shoulder thats most comfortable, but during turns look over the shoulder on the inside of the turn. i've found that the phrase "sack of potatoes" works pretty well in describing to a passenger how s/he should act. switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders, but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you're doing it so your rider knows you're still there. :) the guard rail isn't as safe as holding onto your rider. on a long ride with my ex-girlfriend nancy, i would notice her drifting off every so often (we were droning down highway 101 to la). i probably wouldn't have been aware of this if she hadn't been in the habit of squeezing my butt with her knees to hold on. good advice. mellon@ncd.com uunet!lupine!mellon member of the league for programming freedom. to find out how software patents may cost you your right to program, contact lpf@uunet.uu.net 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105010">
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 |> has anyone any experience with the (new?) yamaha cyclelok ? oooo,i hope it's nothing like i had on my seca turbo. i had locked up the back wheel and forgot about it. when i took off i heard a 'clunk', but i just drove away leaving the lock broken on the ground. real security in action. = the beav |mike beavington| dod:9733 = = v65sabre mbeaving@bnr.ca = = my employer has no idea what i'm talking about! = 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105011">
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 & if this is the same as adjusting the shims between cam and valve, i have & the same question. do you buy a full set of shims before starting the & adjustment process, or do you calculate the shims you need and then run & off to the dealer in the cage to see if the right shims are in stock? & obviously the latter would be cheaper (what do shims cost?), but are & measurements of the shim need reliable enough to buy only the indicated shims? only buy what you need. it would cost a lot to buy a full set, and you won't ever use most of them. i have had good luck with the calculation method. i have never had to change more than one size increment at a time (i never needed a change larger than the next size up/down, usually down). they cost a few $ each for a yamaha. frank ball 1ur-m frankb@sad.hp.com (707) 794-4168 work, hewlett packard (707) 794-3844 fax, (707) 538-3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175, xt350, seca 750, '62 f-100, pl510 rohnert park ca 94928-4999 kc6wug, law, ama, dod #7566, i'm the nra. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105012">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105012" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 waving at other bikers makes more sense than just "hey, how's it going, nice to meet you on the road, have a good ride" 2) it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you're in a cage. this is a good thing. has anyone, while driving a cage, ever waved at bikers? i get the urge, but i've never actually done it. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada let's see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105023">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105023" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project. man, every time this thread comes up, i start jumping up and down screaming ' easy wheels! easy wheels!' but to date, it seems like _i'm_ the only one who' s ever seen this. it's absolutely hysterical. basic plot is this: reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a ( very hot) gang of babe bikers in leather. he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet-nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time. they soon discover that the gang 'o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves (the reasoning behind this is complex), and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world. it is one of the 5 funniest movies i have ever seen in my life. kyle cassidy cassidy@rowan.edu "fire all of your guns at once!" dod #760 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105043">
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 spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally, and rust will not be a problem. i did. regularly. and it was. | michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr | | internet: nelson@seahunt.imat.com dod #0735 | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105049">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105049" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 professionals who train guard dogs, when polled, gave themselves a 1 in 4 chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed. a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with. an untrained mutt may be another story. of course *they'd* say that. they're trying to sell their services. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105051">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105051" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what does "dwi" stand for ? dancing with idjits. ray shea "they wound like a very effective method." unisql, inc. --leah unisql!ray@cs.utexas.edu some days i miss d. boon real bad. dod #0372 : team twinkie : '88 hawk gt 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105052">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105052" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ummm...did you have any bikes other than that kx80? if not, i'd suggest you look for an '89 zx-7, since they only have about 90 horsepower, whereas the '90 has over 100 and might be a bit much for you... zx-10 dod 0812 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105053">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105053" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 oh, banning motorcycles is not *actually* reasonable. it is only reasonable in the eyes of a misinformed and misunderstanding public. or, conversely, your attitude could seem blind and apathetic. i know of no law, either on the books or proposed, that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to. motorcycles are not allowed on th 17 mile drive at pebble beach. jolly roger 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105060">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105060" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 grr. hate the bastard who picked the weather for today. went up to visit a friend overnight (about 45 minute ride).. rode up after work, only minor drizzing for the last 5 minutes of the ride... rest of the ride was very zen. got up this morning, needed to go home and get some disks & stuff to work on her computers with, rainy as all hell. soaked and cold by the time i got since i didn't have another set of thermals which were dry, i said "to heck with it" and drove my cage back up. lo and behold, those funny blue clouds were up in the sky and this warm yellow thing i haven't seen in quite awhile showed up when i was 10 minutes into the trip. and me in my cage. oh joy. happily, my right hand mirror finally showed up at the dealer (dropped the bike when i first got it, put on an emgo replacement mirror... hated it the entire time that thing was on my bike because i couldn't see a damned thing through it, plus it's flat instead of convex like the stock mirrors, so you get a narrow angle wobbly blur)... and i got a replacement windshield for my fairing (dropped the original and chipped the front edge... cosmetic but annoying)... so i spent half an hour happily unscrewing things and replacing them this afternoon. 'bout the only thing i still hate about the bike ('75 cb360t) is the damned "2 d-cell flashlight" headlight. has anyone seen a good source for ~25 watt halogen passing lights? since the charging system on the cb360t can't handle continuous use of a 50w halogen headlight, i was thinking about putting a couple passing lights on... that would give me ~70w of lighting for the rare night riding i do, but wouldn't drain the battery during "normal use" (chiefly day trips and commuting to work and back)... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105061">
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 xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (mike terry) asks: is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? ak296@yfn.ysu.edu (john r. daker) replies: no mike. it is imposible due to the shaft effect. the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground. ugh! who gave you guys your login names? blech |^p john obviously never saw me ride a buddy's cx500, known as "torque monster." i could pull the most beautiful skyshots with that bike! unfortunately, the owner saw me do one. once. i never get to ride tm again... ;^( mr. bill + bill leavitt, #224 + '82 cbx "white lightning", '82 gs850g "suzibago" + + leavitt@cs.umd.edu + '76 cj360 "little honda", '68 lone star "sick leave" + + dod ama icoa nia + '69 impala convertible "the incredible hulk", others + + "hmmm, i thought bore and stroke *was* the technique!" michael bain, #757 + 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105062">
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 another good place for your helmet is your mirror (!). this dents and dings the liner, sometimes quite a bit. i've bike like | jody levine dod #275 kv got a you can if you -pf | jody.p.levine@hydro.on.ca ride it | toronto, ontario, canada it also works great to put under your kickstand on those really hot days when the tar gets really soft..... jim "rags" rye senior technical support analyst 86 harley davidson rye@crayamid.cray.com cray research inc, mpls, mn. "if you're going to do something tonight that you'll be sorry for tomorrow morning, sleep late." -henny youngman my opinions are mine and only mine, but for a small fee you may rent them. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105065">
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 duck. squids don't wave, or return waves ever, even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus, but what are these. edu-breaths with more riceburner than brain... 
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<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105078" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my 750 ninja. this will be the the first time i've taken anyone for an extended ride (read: farther than around the block :-). we'll be riding some twisty, fairly bumpy roads (the mines road-mt.hamilton loop for you sf bay areans). this person is <100 lbs. and fairly small, so i don't see weight as too much of a problem, but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go? my fiancee' and i do quite a bit of sporty riding 2-up. i'll tell you what we've found and the systems we've worked out. - on starts, accelerate much slower than usual. it's tough for the rider to judge how scary fast acceleration is, because we're holding onto something and leaning forward. remember this. - on turns, have her lean forward and at the same angle as you (normally this means she isn't leaning at all.) it's very disconcerting to be leaned over and have your passenger leaning so that they're sitting straight up. much balance is lost and this can be dangerous. - on slowing and stopping, do so much slower than usual. again, it's tough for the rider to judge how scary fast deceleration is, because we're holding onto something and leaning forward. however, you'll figure it out fast because braking too fast will shove the passenger forward into you, which shoves you into the tank at an inopportune location. - generally, have the passenger keep her knees against you and the bike, not out wide. this helps balance and gives her somegrip. - when you passenger is in fear, she will squeeze her knees against you. normally this means "slow down, and do it now!". turning so she leans *with* me, but what else? are there traditional signals for slow down!! or go faster!! or i hafta go pee!! etc.??? we only have a couple signals. "slow down" is her either tapping me on the back, or slapping my helmet with all her might. depends on the urgency of the matter :-) "turn here" is done by her pointing in the direction of an exit. this is also the sign for "cool! look at that." "i hafta pee" is the same sign as "turn here". "i'm hungry" is the same sign. "go faster" is usually done by her jumping up and down on her pegs in glee. i usually see "slow down" more often than "go faster". i really want this to be a positive experience for us both, mainly so that she'll want to go with me again, so any help will be appreciated... the best thing to do before the ride is to talk to a riding buddy, and pillion on his or her bike. it's incredibly frustrating, because you're in almost no control. now, multiply that feeling times ten, because you as a rider know what your bike will do, and your passenger will likely feel you're about to scrape hard parts all the time, or lock up the brakes at any moment, or go careening off the edge of a volcanic mountain, etc. pillioning yourself is good training to take somebody on your pillion pad. also, remember that it's much more draining and tiring to ride 2-up than by yourself, because you're concentrating on much more, and "in the zen of the moment" less. remember this. pat loughery [patlo@microsoft.com] seattle, wa dod #393, ama, vme, dioc, 1ksi=2.53 '91 vfr750f, '91 nighthawk 750, '82 seca 650 turbo ^^^ for sale 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105094">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105094" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 greetings netters, steve writes ... <about cobra locks> well i have the mother of all locks. on friday the 16th of april i took possesion of a 12' cobra links lock, 1" diameter. this was a special order. i weighs a lot. i had to carry it home and it was digging into my shoulder after about two blocks. i have currently a kryptonite rock lock through the front wheel, a hd padlock for the steering lock, a master padlock to lock the cover to two front spokes, and the cobra links through the rear swing arm and around a post in an underground parking garage. next friday the 30th i have an appointment to have an alarm installed on me bike. when i travel the cobra links and the cover and padlock stay at home. by the way. i also removed the plastic mesh that is on the cobra links and encased the lock from end to end using bicycle inner tubes (two of them) i got the from bicycle dealer that sold me the cobra links. the guys were really great and didn't mark up the price of the lock much and the inner tubes were free. 1992 fxstc rock 'n roll mike mychalkiw hog ryerson polytechnical institute - dod #665 just this side of hell. academic computing information centre doh #0000000667 just the other side. email : acad8059@ryevm.ryerson.ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105095">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105095" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 okay dod'ers, here's a goddamn mystery for ya ! today i was turning a 90 degree corner just like on any other day, but there was a slight difference- a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible "thunk". i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage. my bike is a kawasaki gpx250r with footpegs that are hinged and sprung such that they fold upward and backward on contact with ground etc., and on the lower extreme corner of each peg there is mounted a "bank-follower", or a little stud that theoretically is the first bit to hit the ground in a 100%-banked turn. the stud is mounted on the footpeg by a threaded bit about 7 mm long, which screws into a threaded hole in the footpeg. now for the the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent. i'm fairly sure it was there before the event. there was no damage to the end of the footpeg where the stud would ordinarily have been. in fact, the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact, with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously. okay all you engineering types, how the f**k do you explain this ? how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole (in alloy) without damaging the thread in the hole ? is this some sort of hi-tech design thingo that kawasaki never mentioned, like that the end of the footpeg suddenly changes phase on impact, to let the stud rip out, then changes back to a solid ? i'm quite amazed at how this could have happened. in the meantime, life goes on, without a left-hand bank-follower. barry manor dod# 620 confused accidental peg-scraper 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105096">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105096" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 dogs will chase anything that moves. i have two dogs and they love chasing me when i ride off. they will also chase any car that passes , running along the footpath/sidewalk at up to 60kph. they don't seem to go after trucks though, the size difference must be a factor. it also works in my favour though, i can exercise them quite easily by riding 1/2 mile up the road and back a few times. ja (s851708@minyos.rmit.oz.au) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105099">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105099" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 knight riders has got to be one of the silliest movies i've ever seen. curt howland "ace" dod#0663 eff#569 howland@nsipo.nasa.gov '82 v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards, for it makes them soggy and hard to re-light. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105101">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105101" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : how do you know what kind of gas to buy ? depending on the compression : ratio of your engine i heard. ok, but what kind of gas goes for what kind : of compression. : i'm asking this because i used to put 87 in my hawk gt and the other day, : i changed because i wanted to see if there was a difference. and i don't : know if i'm being subjective or what, but it seems like the bike runs : better ! run your bike on the lowest octane that it will run smoothly on. higher octane fuel is not "better" than lower octane gas. pick up the last american roadracing magazine. there's a short article in there about octane and the misconceptions many people make about the subject. look at your owners manual. i believe it states 87 is just fine. erik astrup afm #422 dod #683 1993 cbr 900rr * 1990 cbr 600 * 1990 concours * 1990 ninja 250 "this one goes to eleven" - nigel tufnel, lead guitar, spinal tap 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105102">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105102" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 old nick (the little devil!) wibbles:- % tsk, tsk, tsk. another newbie bites the dust, eh? they'll learn. newbie? eh? slap yer' credentials on the table, pete. that'll show him! % i'm terribly sorry. and so you damned well should be... young whipper-snapper! it's wet kippers at ten paces if there's any repeat of this sort of thing! now, in keeping with the grand tradition of wreck.moto, let's mutate! take your partners by the hand... on tuesday morning i spent a couple of hours (when i -should- have been working) with a torch, brazing bits of scrap metal over the biggest holes in yamadog's exhaust pipes (s'mazin' what you can do with a couple of aa cells and a three-volt bulb!). i stuck some "gun-gum" into the smaller holes and bunged the pipes back onto the bike. so, last night i'm on the way home when lo' an' bloody behold, the sodding thing starts blowing again. i check it out and the gas is escaping from around the clamp holding the number two pipe into the port. as far as i can see (it being somewhat "hole of calcutta" at the time!), the nuts are still there (stop that bloody sniggering, you at the back!), but the pipe is a bit loose. this morning i go out to the bike and pull out the socket-set to tighten up me' nuts (somebody give that spotty kid at the back a good slap round the back of the head!), and lo' an' bloody behold a-bloody-gen, i find that the outer skin of the pipe has separated from the inner sleeve right at the clamp-mating bevel. so, i stuff in a bit of baked-beanz can and a bit more of mr holts' very best "gun-gum" and come to work (late again!) so that i can ask of the oracle... will a brazed joint hold that close to the exhaust port? anybody tried it? oh, and if anybody can tell me what the differences are between a 205 and a 207 brazing rod (made by "gaz" [yup! the camping folks. surprised the marmalade outa' me, too!] in that place just off the isle of wight) i'd be eternally grateful (twenty-sodding-quid for two rods and i don't even know what i'm buying. bloody kanji!). | john little - gaijin@japan.sun.com - sun microsystems. atsugi, japan | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105104">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105104" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 (message posted by/for roomate) bike is in good condition, is black, has 23000 miles, mag wheels, front disk, rear drum, good front tire, new back tire, o-ring chain, new battery, new starter and has that laid back look. bike runs real strong with all four carbs giving their best. buyer gets a cover (all weather, lockable & heatproof), tank bag (non-magnetic - can't take disks along otherwise!), cargo net & manual. bike has origional tool kit & matching yamaha lock. asking $1700 or best offer. i would like to sell this soon, so please call (voice!)(ack!) with any questions! john silvia in (303) area - (home) 238-8281 (work) 296-7744 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105105">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105105" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 }honda: a "v" designates a v engine street bike. "vf" for v-4, "vt" for v-twin. so how about my honda hawk (nt 650)? it's a twin, but not called a vt. that's because they took the old vt 500 engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk -> "new twin". or does that only fly for microsoft nt (new technology)? i've been at this too long today ... victor "dances with hawks" johnson 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105107">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105107" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i have a 1974 honda cb360t which for most of my purposes runs well. however i expereince a severe power drop at cruising speeds under load. that is, on a mild upgrade @ 50 mph in 4th or 5th i'm lucky if i can hold speed. if i try to add throttle much past 5000 rpm, power drops drastically. put simply, under load, the engine won't rev past 5000 rpm. the top third/half of the throttle range is dead. standing still the engine runs fine up to red line (9-10k). other phenomenology: at about the point that power loss kicks in, the engine becomes a little wavery. that is, at a steady throttle the engine speed goes up and down slightly. the bike has about 13000 miles on it and is in good tune, at least until it starts to balk. i would appreciate any suggestions as to what's ailing the poor beast. my thoughts run toward clogged jets and/or improper spark advance. i'm hoping it's not something more drastic since the bike's not really worth the hassle of any major engine work. britt park britt@cb-iris.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105112">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105112" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs40 you better check all the screws in that carb before you suck one into a jug and munge a piston, or valve. i've seen it happen before. what?!?!? on a mikuni??? i'm going through the exploded view of the 40mm flatslide on the 'ol sport, the 36mm round slide on spike, and the monster on my old norton in my mind, and i can't, for the life of me see a screw in any of them that, if it came loose could get into a when they explode 'em, all the screws fly away. chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105113">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105113" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident? suggestions? if possible, i split lanes. even if you don't get all the way to the head of the line, at least you won't rear-ended. i always worry more when i'm in the lane, at the front of the line, and no one in behind me. then you have to keep an eye on your mirrors. i also get ready to pull a hard right, *just in case*. disclaimer - these opiini^h^h damn! ^h^h ^q ^[ .... :w :q :wq :wq! ^d ^x ^? exit x q ^c ^? :quitbye ctrlaltdel ~~q :~q logout save/quit :!quit ^[zz ^[zzzzzz ^vi man vi ^@ ^l ^[c ^# ^e ^x ^i ^t ? help helpquit ^d ^d !! man help ^c ^c :e! help exit ?quit ?q ctrlshftdel "hey, what does stop l1a d..." 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105115">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105115" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yep, it works like a charm. i had the same problem after about 7-8 years of constant use, and i was thinking of seeing how much eclipse would want to install a new zipper. but someone (i think it was chuck karish) suggested i try that trick. it took a couple of tries to get the right amount of squish, but it's been fine for about 3 years since i squished it. it should work for any of the nylon-coil type zippers. otoh- i tried this on my hg concord jacket thursday night. really, i just made a tiny-adjustment type of squeeze. really. is (was? :-( ) your hg zipper the nylon-coil type or the kind with molded plastic teeth? i've only tried it on the coiled nylon type, and it doesn't take much squish to fix the problem. i found i was overdoing it (no broken parts, but the zipper was too hard to pull) so after spreading the zipper pull jaws again, i tried with vice-grips. no, not the usual grip of death technique, i adjusted the closed vice-grips so they were snug on the zipper jaws, then released them and tightened the adjusting screw a bit. a couple of iterations and i had just the right amount of zipper squish (tm). result: i now know that noplace in spokane will even _consider_ trying to repair a broken zipper-closer-thingy, which must be a $0.30 part which needs a $20 tool to install. i've had two zipper pulls fail on my aerostich suit (actually on the accessory ellipse), and they sent me a few replacement pulls free of charge. i don't know what brand of zippers hg uses, but parts are available for ykk's plastic zippers. replacement was pretty simple, just break and remove the plastic knob at the top of the zipper that keeps the pull from coming off the top end. slide on the new zipper pull. then crimp on (vice-grips again!) a replacement zipper stop. you might try fabric stores & such and see if they sell replacement oh, for what it's worth, the coil-type zippers on the eclipse tankbag are also ykk. blaine gardner @ evans & sutherland bgardner@dsd.es.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105116">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105116" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog's conformance to a "psychological norm" that may not actually apply to a particular dog. i've tried it with some success before, but it won't work on a charlie manson dog or one that's really, *really* stupid. a large irish setter taught me this in *my* yard (apparently his territory) one day. i'm sure he was playing a game with me. the game was probably "kill the very angry neighbor" before he can dispense the terrible punishment. what, a dog weighs 150lb maybe, at max? you can't handle it? we were having a problem with instability in the universal gravitational constant that day: the closer i got to those exposed fangs (still dripping, no doubt, with the viscera of the last foolhardy experimenter cum canine psychology) the bigger and heavier the dog appeared to become. also, recall that the distribution of the ~150lb is one five pound jaw+teeth operated by two 70lb muscles driven by a .005 ounce brain possessing an instinctual heuristic composed of equal parts of bloodlust and ravening hunger. the other ~5 lb is, of course, dog poop, but that varies all over the place as the dog deposits it regularly on the painstakingly manicured and tended lawns of the dog's owner's neighbors (whilst continuously replenishing its inexhaustible supply, no doubt by consuming the likes of folks like me). you have, i presume, thumbs? grapple with it and tear it's head off! my very thought at the time, but as i looked down at these once formidable instruments of mayhem, i realized they had become weak and atrophied by too many sedentary hours tapping away at my ergonomically-correct crt keyboard. there was only one option left: i reached down to the toolbox near my car and grasped my craftsman 150 ft-lb torque wrench, surely the bludgeon of dire necessity if ever there was one. to my amazement and confusion, the setter started shaking and rolling on the grass, then leapt to its feet and vanished down the street, still quivering and occasionally looking back at me. "seven at one blow!" i exclaimed, flexing my new-found biceps and brandishing my terrible weapon of invincibility as i stalked the now-secure environs of my domicile. it was only later that i found out what the dog apparently knew all along: the wrench was defective, would no longer measure torque accurately, and sears wouldn't fix it or replace it. what i had interpreted as fear and subservience were in fact unmitigated hilarity and contempt. sheesh, even a trained attack dog is no match for a human, we have *all* the advantages. exactly: nobody can look quite as silly as we can. chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105121">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105121" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [description of a pretty rowdy-sounding party] and still we wonder why they stereotype us... whacha mean 'we'...ifin they (whom ever 'they' are) want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies - i like that stereotype. if you were refering 'stereotype' to infer a negative - you noticed we didn't rape, pillage, or burn down the town. we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town. me thinks the town likes us. least they said so. lynn hall - nos bros they bein' themfolk who tend to compose fair piece of the population; bein the ones that regard bikers as a loud, irresponsible, irreverent, reprobate rabble. doesn't sound like they attended, though, does it? in fact, if we riders need friends, it sounds a lot like we might have a whole townfull from lynn's description, especially if the same crowd gets invited back to party some more year after year. sure you didn't rape and pillage-- it's a relief to know that you were such gentlemen-- but because you were not completely out-of-hand you justify your lesser indescretions? some pretty distorted thinking, i should say. you seem to be one of very few bent out of shape over these "lesser indiscretions". if the towns-people aren't ruffled by the "indiscretions" and the partyers aren't either, maybe the "indiscretions" don't amount to anything more threatening or damaging than harmless good-natured rowdiness among consenting adults. the only thing that really bothered me about the description was the knee-deep empty beer cans in the street, but maybe the town had a plan to deal with that since they helped set up the party in the first place. if i lived there and the bikers' previous visits had established a record of mutual cooperation and good intentions, i'd certainly rather they stick around and party than go riding off into the night impaired and maybe get hurt or killed. oh-- i'm sorry, i just noticed that you left mucho bucks (as in money)... nevermind my criticism, i was out of line. i forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks (as in money) their behavior is permissable, perhaps even if it doesn't hurt anyone, and all the parties to the party benefit and consider the entire activity to be benign and harmless, then who needs to "permit" or "justify" it? you? why do *you* need to do that? keep in mind that "themfolks" are the ones that could give a %$#@! when a biker gets killed, when *their* elected officials institute further draconian legislation (helmet laws, gun controls, etc.), the ones that don't respect our rights on the roads because we do not respect theirs all "the rest of the time..." ironically, these particular townsfolk probably are in the minority that don't happen to fit the stereotype you describe. they've developed a friendly long-term mutually-beneficial relationship with a group of motorcyclists, and aren't as burdened with mc-ignorance as is the general population because of it. need i continue? if such a need exists, it surely must come from within. so continue to wear your stigma as a badge, but the next time you are whining about "them" and the effect of their values on yours, remember that it was probably the behavior of self-righteous wusses like myself that kept "them" at bay for this long. well, you got the "self-righteous wusses" part right, anyway. chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com "you might have heard i run with a dangerous crowd, we ain't too pretty, we ain't too proud, we might be laughin' a bit too loud, ah, but that never hurt no one, <-------- you know that only the good die young" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105126">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105126" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hello, net.readers. i am looking for a little net.advice. i've got my eye on a '92 suzuki gs500e at a local dealer. the bike's got 3,200 miles on it and looks in mint condition. dealer is asking a bit less than $2,800. good price? i don't have access to a blue book and am too lazy to go to the library. dealer is letting me test-ride it this week. blue book says: wholesale=$2115, retail=$2895 sounds like you are getting a pretty fair price (assuming it is in nice condition) andrew white | univ of pennsylvania (edu-breath) awhite@mcneil.sas.upenn.edu | dod #0584 | '82 honda sabre v45 nick coburn dod#6425 ama#679817 '88cbr1000 '89cbr600 coburnn@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105127">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105127" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons.\ do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see/do/avoid. plans are to see bryce, zion, arches. is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required? well, it's closer to bryce than bryce is to arches. i'd spend a lot of time studying the maps, there's a lot of "you can't get there from here" in that area. you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california, loop around to canyonlands/moab/arches, and then back down towards bryce & zion on the way home. make sure you ride us 12 between capitol reef and bryce, it's been on a number of "top 10 roads" lists. highway 12 is a great road. be sure to stop by the anasazi (sp) village museum near boulder creek. interesting lifestyle :-). the views of dixie national forest are stunning. karen black 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105128">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105128" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yes, it was specifically the *ability* or understanding of the technique which was absent. how did hurt measure the ability of riders to swerve? 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105129">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105129" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 % well, here goes. after lurking for a long time, i'll announce myself. % yes, i'm the enemy. sorry allan, but unless you happen to be the guy who watches t.v. while he's driving a white toyota on route 129 between atsugi and hiratsuka, you're not even -close- to being "the enemy"!! | john little - gaijin@japan.sun.com - sun microsystems. atsugi, japan | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105133">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105133" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 how to get a verbal warning for 146 in a 55 poppy cock! this story is obviously a complete fabrication, and i'll show you why... in ames, there is a road that leads to the little town of this establishes that the story takes place in iowa. gilbert. gilbert has one stop light, if that tells you something. having just gotten the bike back together, i thought i'd take it for a short ride and check things out. heading out of town, i went into the twisties at a slow pace, just under the speed limit, in iowa?!?!? come on now dan, how dumb do you think we are? you could have at least thrown in a llama or tennis ball reference. hell, you didn't even get the speed right. ps. :-) | dean cookson / dcookson@mitre.org / 617 271-2714 | dod #207 ama #573534 | | the mitre corp. burlington rd., bedford, ma. 01730 | kotnml / kotb | | "the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop" | '92 vfr750f | | -sam eliott, road hogs mtv 1993 | '88 bianchi limited | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105137">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105137" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally, and rust will not be a problem. i did. regularly. and it was. maybe you had accidentally sealed in some water? i cleaned my chain thoroughly, took it on a short ride to dry it off and heat it up a bit, and the paraffin sank deep into the rollers and formed a good seal on the outside. no rust, but then again i live in tucson! /-----b-o-d-y---i-s---t-h-e---b-i-k-e----------------------------\ | dod# 88888 asphaug@hindmost.lpl.arizona.edu | | '90 kawi 550 zephyr (erik asphaug) | | '86 bmw r80gs | \-----------------------s-o-u-l---i-s---t-h-e---r-i-d-e-r--------/ 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105138">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105138" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, phj@remus.rutgers.edu (p. ju) says: the brake pedal, &c. &c.) i've pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil/filter for me. compared to the 5-minute change he was used to for his honda, this is just a design flaw/oversight in my eyes. sure don't know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn't a virago. i've owned both the 750 and 1100 and you can do the filter change in about 5 mins and nothing has to be removed. well, watching several denizen's dismantle laurie's virago in an attempt to change the oil at the ride 'n feed a few years back was a pretty funny site. surely with the combined wisdom of all these folks they weren't doing things the hard way, were they? paul thompson apple computer 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105139">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105139" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hear screeching tires. i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it's the moroon flying up right behind me, in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike. luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel. i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident? suggestions? the experience you describe is why i don't like to sit with my bike in gear - i figure there's a chance that i'll be startled in some way and stall my bike. and i figure this is more likely than the chance that i'll be unable to escape some situation because of the extra time needed to put the bike in gear. so i concentrate on avoiding situations rather than making split-second evasive manuvers. i split lanes so i'm not at the end of the line. (unfortunately this is not legal in most of the country) if i can't split (perhaps there isn't room) then i will stop near one side of the lane so i have an easy escape, and leave my bike in gear until the next car has stopped. i watch in my mirrors in the mean time to make sure it will! whether i really would have time to move should a car fail to stop, i haven't had to find out yet. some cars have an annoying habbit of racing up behind you before braking heavilly, so it can be hard to tell if they are planning to brake or not! so in summary, position yourself for an easy exit, and then watch your mirrors until it's all clear. paul thompson apple computer 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105141">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105141" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ; i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle, and to ;put it bluntly, it sucks. i really would like some advice on what would ;be a good starter bike for me. i do know one thing however, i need to ;make my first bike a good one, because buying a second any time soon is ;out of the question. i am specifically interested in racing bikes, (cbr ;600 f2, gsx-r 750). i know that this may sound kind of crazy ;considering that i've never had a bike before, but i am responsible, a ;fast learner, and in love. responsible and in love? i believe that's a contradiction in terms. unless you're really brave (read: "reckless") a 500cc sport bike will go way faster than you dare for at least your first year of riding. getting more than that really is overkill, as you'll never even want to use it. the following bikes can be bought (and repaired!) cheaply, are easy for a novice to manage, and are plenty high performance: kawasaki ex-500 honda vf-500 "interceptor" suzuki gs-550e the 0-100mph time of the ex-500 at full throttle is "way sooner than you're ready for it". :-) with something as small as a 250, you'd probably be wishing for more power pretty quickly (unless it's a tzr or rgv :). now, i'm not saying that you're 100% certain to kill yourself immediately with a 600f2 or a gsxr-750. plenty of people have started riding on those bikes and done just fine. what i am saying is that it's a waste of money, and a waste of perfectly good plastic when you drop the thing learning how to balance while stopping. you'll never get the throttle more than half open anyway, so why spend the extra 2000 bucks? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105142">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105142" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : tsk, tsk, tsk. another newbie bites the dust, eh? they'll learn. newbie. sorry to disappoint you, but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag. based on your previous postings, apparently devoid of humour, sarcasm, wit, or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time, i assumed you were serious. mea culpa. you cannot be serious!! personally i think nick's postings are the best thing on wreck.moto. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105144">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105144" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally, and rust will not be a problem. i did. regularly. and it was. interesting. all i can say is that i haven't seen any wear in the 1000 miles i've used the stuff on the ninja, and the bike stays soooo clean. i'll check back again in a few thousand more miles. while we're on the subject, whereinthehell can i find a 532x110 endless chain, other than the dealer (no, rivet-type master links are not acceptable)? chris behanna dod# 114 1983 h-d fxwg wide glide - jubilee's red lady behanna@syl.nj.nec.com 1975 cb360t - baby bike disclaimer: now why would nec 1991 zx-11 - needs a name agree with any of this anyway? i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105145">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105145" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 while "passngering" on my fiance's bandit, my hip-pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches. is there a way to get rid of these? buff them out? wax them out? help! has he realised yet....or are you hoping to fix it before he does ? if you're planning to use t-cut...be careful. sunlight fades paint and t-cut removes the surface layer, so if its a older bike or very sunny where you live then the colour of the t-cut panel wont match the rest of the bike. bob morley pipex (public ip exchange) dod #549 216 cambridge science park ogrite milton road cbr1000fl cambridge, cb4 4wa ely & district mcc england 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105148">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105148" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |> lotus looks set for a management buyout. gm weren't happy that the elan was |> late and too pricey. if they can write off the elan development costs the may |> be able to sell them for a sensible price. i read that gm wants to keep the design part of lotus but lose the car production. and, i seem to remember, that the main problem with the elan was caused by gm's insistence that the elan be re-designed (significantly) for the us market which caused major design & production headaches. |> : : i think there is a legal clause in the rr name, regardless of who owns it |> : : it must be a british company/owner - i.e. ba can sell the company but not |> : : the name. |> : : kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch |> : i don't believe that ba have anything to do with rr. it's a seperate |> : company from the rr aero-engine company. |> it's vickers who own rolls royce cars. quite true - brain fade on my part. |> david edmondson davide@dcs.qmw.ac.uk kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105149">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105149" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 this summer (~july 20) my wife (michelle) and i will be in boston attending my brother's wedding. after the wedding we are planning to motor up to bar harbor, maine to visit some relatives for a few days. our summer would be *made* if we could find a bike (or bikes) to borrow or rent to ride up to bar harbor and back. here's some important details: i've been riding for ~11 years, (my own bikes for the past 7 years), michelle has been riding for the past 6 years (her own bikes), i've only been involved in one accident which was caused by a cage driver running a stop sign, i currently own a bmw r90, michelle owns a yamaha virago 700, we prefer cruising over racing, we've toured a fair amount, we're both licensed and insured, and we're nice people. so, if anyone has a bike (or bikes :-), but the second one would have to be a virago or something else with an equally low seat) that they would be willing to loan us for 3-4 days in july, michelle and i would be eternally grateful. in addition to our friendship, you would also have the use of our bikes should you ever pass through minneapolis. in exchange, we would be happy to take you and a guest out for dinner and an evening of wild bike stories, or we might even be willing to cough up some money for improvements to the bike(s), like new tires or also, any information about bike rentals in the boston area would be greatly appreciated. scott brandt 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105151">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105151" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 yesterday, a friend had asked me to accompany him to a local motorcycle dealer. it has been a while since he last rode (>10 years), and i myself have never bought a new bike from a dealer. what follows is an experience of that visit and of an observation of "squildly" behavior by other customers and/or sales personel: background: i ride with a group of friends, who mainly are into "cruiser" type bikes. my friend was hell bent on getting an intruder and had seen a few used ones. he wanted to see what the new ones were going for, so we happened upon a dealer that sold both suzuki and yamaha. the place was fairly busy, so we browsed a bit. we happened upon a few intruders, most of which had sold signs on. my friend had been bitten. well the salesdroid appeared and as my friend started chewing the fat, i moseid on outside. the next thing i know, i see 3 or 4 sport bikes pull in. i could stereo-type the type of riders (backward ball hat, oakley, iq <40), but i won't. well they went inside, i didn't think much of it. i figured to each his own. i went back in to see if the salesdroid had his fangs firmly implanted into my friends back, when i noticed the "hormone gang" talking to other salesdroids/managers. lot's of laughter, jokes etc. no big here is the part that concerned me. the "hg" and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out, where said "hg" members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those 600 beasts. at this point, one decided to see how much rubber a katana 600 could deposit in the drive. squids, i thought to myself. but i was appalled that the salesdroids/manager not only condoned this behavior, but encourged it, to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour. the girl that was riding pillion on another bike, seemed rather hormonal about this display, and urged her "pilot" to quickly catch up. the others followed, making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt. i felt embarassed at this point to be a motorcyclist. i felt the eyes of those in cages, witnessing this display, then glancing over to the dealers lot and damning all those on two wheels. needless to say, my friend felt a little uncomfortable and we left. i will now turn off my frustration and go ride... peacefully, to clear my anger. i only hope that the cop who is following me home, has an open mind and doesn't associate me with them. btw, i can't afford a new bike..... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105153">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105153" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ... perhaps dwi in lousiana *is* confined to liquor? *everything* in louisiana is related to liquor: eating, sleeping, walking, talking, church, state, life, death, and everything in between. how dare you make such an accusation! there are many sober, non-drinkers in this state! if we wern't so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end, i might just come up that and have a talk wit you! b-> ----===== dod #8177 = technician(dr. speed) .not. student =====---- stolen taglines... hey! where did they go? you don't think .... naahh. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105155">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105155" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 all our local 'experts' say it's the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that. i would like any advice anyone had. i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places. is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of? any problems anyone else has encountered? i would stongly recommend a factory service manual, and if you are not an experienced machanic then get a chiltons or haynes (sp?) also. make sure the bike has cooled at least 6 hours since being run. read the books and if you have more questions you could mail me. also, be very careful when tightening valve cover bolts. they take very little torque and breaking one is disaster. rich sturges falls church, va 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105159">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105159" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project. man, every time this thread comes up, i start jumping up and down screaming ' easy wheels! easy wheels!' but to date, it seems like _i'm_ the only one who' s ever seen this. it's absolutely hysterical. basic plot is this: reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a ( very hot) gang of babe bikers in leather. he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet-nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time. they soon discover that the gang 'o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves (the reasoning behind this is complex), and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world. it is one of the 5 funniest movies i have ever seen in my life. kyle cassidy cassidy@rowan.edu "fire all of your guns at once!" dod #760 i actually saw this movie about three months ago, but it wasn't called easy wheels. it was something else that escapes me at the moment but i did rent it from blockbuster video and it was a hoot, in the same class as plan 9 from outer space. jim groh groh@sig.cs.fsu.edu | dod #0356 | hog# 0437643 |new improved 1959 xlh 900 ** 1982 fxr ** 1989 xlh 883 ** 1990 xlh 1200 | smaller sig 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105161">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105161" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was just wondering what kind (brand, name, etc...) would be best on this bike.... thanks for your advice.... jbourgui@ucs.indiana.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105202">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105202" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 & and speaking of shims, why would the clearance of the valves get smaller, & i.e. & need the use of a thinner shim? because the valves recede into the cylinder head faster than the shims/cams wear down.. frank ball 1ur-m frankb@sad.hp.com (707) 794-4168 work, hewlett packard (707) 794-3844 fax, (707) 538-3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175, xt350, seca 750, '62 f-100, pl510 rohnert park ca 94928-4999 kc6wug, law, ama, dod #7566, i'm the nra. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105204">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105204" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ed>1. all of us that argue about gyroscopes, etc., throughly understand ed>the technique of countersteering. me>including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way me>through a corner?? ed>well... all the way through a decreasing-radius corner, anyway... maybe they are riding around an ever-decreasing circle of lies which eventually leads to the truth.... me>the official line here (though i do have my doubts about it) is that the me>front brake is applied first, followed by the rear brake, the idea being me>that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place. if that's the "official line" taught in those rider education classes you were refering to, that also don't teach countersteering, i have to question the quality of the classes. me too, though unfortunately the "official line" is the one that you have to adhere to if you want to get a full licence. the examiner's guidelines are laid down by the government, and the basic rider education courses have no choice but to follow them. it surprises me that none of the rider groups here, either mag or the bmf make much noise about the fact that the riding test requires you to ride three feet from the kerb all the time in order to pass, that the front brake must be applied before the rear, that you have to keep looking over your shoulder all the time (instead of just when it is justified) - there's probably a few more too, which i can't think of for the moment. if the riding test could be rejigged a bit to include more of the real-world survival skills and less of the woefully simplistic crap that it contains now, then the accident figures would (imho) reduce still further. don't think we should include countersteering knowledge in our test though... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105205">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105205" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson ( yes he has not left the country, yet) mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr750 shows that the light switch is a three position switch. my cb750 does it too. the "switch continuity" section of the wiring diagram looks something like this: hl l h x--x low x--x--x (n) x-----x high and my '78 cx500 too - i first thought it was the wiring diagram that didn't fit my machine ;-) /jb 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105208">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105208" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 greetings all, can anyone let me know status of uk law about riding motorcycles. i used to ride one about 12 years ago and never took my dot test ( one of a whole list of things i wished i had done when i was young),but i have passed my car driving test. i now travel from littlehampton to brighton every day and i'm getting pissed off with the traffic/road works. i thinking about getting a 100cc bike ( don't laugh ) just to get "streetwise" and to take my test, then to get a bigger one ( 400 to 600 cc ). now i have been told i don't have to do the cbt but what will i have to do to get a full licence ? thanks in advanced * leigh dodd * * engineering and applied science (eaps) * * university of sussex, * * brighton bn1 9qh, uk * * phone: 44 273 606755 ext. 2616 * * fax: 44 273 678399 * * janet: leighd@uk.ac.susx.eaps * * internet: leighd@eaps.susx.ac.uk * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105209">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105209" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 % i can't haul my big dic. around on my bike... ...or is it a boast? | john little - gaijin@japan.sun.com - sun microsystems. atsugi, japan | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105210">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105210" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 make sure you ride us 12 between capitol reef and bryce, it's been on a number of "top 10 roads" lists. did they ever put in any gas stations on us 12? i rode through there in 1987, skipped a fillup at bryce canyon and rode 100+ miles before seeing a gas station at torrey. awesome road, i recall riding up a narrow ridge above 9,000? 10,000? feet. bruce tanner (310) 860-2451 x 596 tanner@cerritos.edu cerritos college norwalk, ca dod #0161 nomad #007 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105211">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105211" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, mjs@sys.uea.ac.uk (mike sixsmith) says: is there a way to wax out a dull finish (minor scrathes)? while "passngering" on my fiance's bandit, my hip-pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches. is there a way to get rid of these? buff them out? wax them out? help! okay, here's what to do. get a drill and a sanding disk. use, say a 100 disk and go at it at a very low rpm. if you don't have a drill, try coarse steel wool and brake fluid. dot 4 has an uncanny knack for removing _any_ paint imperfections. oh, i'm not responsible for misuse or miapplication of either of these dod #650<----------------------------------------------------------->darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - albert einstein ___________________the eternal champion_________________ 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105212">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105212" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in article <93113.202310c09615bt@wuvmd.wustl.edu>, brad thone <c09615bt@wuvmd> writes... if you haven't done it before, it can be dangerous. it takes some getting used to. read ed's list. yep. if ed's list is over 45-degrees, the wind's too strong to ride. :-) ivan reid, paul scherrer institute, ch. ivan@cvax.psi.ch gsx600f, rg250wd. si=2.66 "american degrees; not european!" dod #484 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105213">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105213" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a few months ago, in one the the motorcycle mags, there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw. the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight, and reflect in other colors at night to has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source? terry mccandlish, president of my local bmw club (buckeye beemers) sells this type of tape. it comes as a strip approximately 3" x 12" and can be cut to sizes needed. you can call terry at (614) 837-1960 (columbus, ohio). 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105215">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105215" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from .1 to .08. it faces stiff opposition in the senate. recently, the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots, and when they hit .07, put them on a course dodging cones. they failed, and will probably change their votes as a result. did they try to do the course before having a few drinks ? i don't see a senator that has is fat but driven around in a limo being a good driver no mater how many drinks he has had before. yeah, really, no shit! like that jerk loch faircloth that couldn't win an election as a democrat so he switches to republican the year before this past election and takes terry sanford out with his bitch and moan campaigning typical of nc senate/house/gubner races. i swear, i'd kick jesse helms in the head if i ever got the chance. maybe then he'd get a fucking clue as to how the rest of the world lives. andy infante | you can listen to what everybody says, but the fact remains | '71 bmw r60/5 | that you've got to get out there and do the thing yourself. | dod #2426 | -- joan sutherland | ==============| my opinions, dammit, have nothing to do with anyone else!!! | 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105220">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105220" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 sorry for my stupid question :->, but what do you "americans" mean with "shaft-drives". my dictionary knows only strange meanings like: schaft, stiel, pfeil, strahl, welle, deichsel, schacht. shaft: bamboozle, beat, beguile, burn (or flame), deceive, hoax, drive: campaign, crusade, push. so, 'shaft drive' may be a campaign to decieve or a crusade of beguile, efforts where are true to the spirit of this list. wheel: revolution, swing crusaders of beguile are innefective in revolutions and they cannot swing, either, therefore shaft drives cannot do wheelies. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105221">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105221" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 so of the 120 hp produced by my fj1100 engine, 12 hp * (745.7 watts)/1 hp = 8.948 kilowatts is being dumped into 220 leetle tiny o-rings? that's 40.67 watts per o-ring! seems a little *hot*, doncha think? :-o chuck rogers car377@torreys.att.com so, hey, like, does this work the other way? if i was to like, you know, strap a generator to my fzjrr11000krx and route its output to the chain, could i increase the horsepower? 32 meters a sec is pretty nice and all, but, i'd still like to be able to blow away a goldwing without going to nitro... dod #388 xj1100j "big maroon" vf700f "l'audace" don't blame me, i voted libertarian 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105222">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105222" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i am in hte market for a new bike (been without for a few years). the two main bikes i'm looking at seriously are the yamaha virago 535 and the honda shadow vlx 583. i am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive, the honda is chain. insurance in fla. is more costly than i thought, so i am staying in this power range. thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences a friend of mine (who's probably reading this right now) just bought a new yamaha virago 750. after spending 1-2 hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts (had to remove the right peg, loosen the brake pedal, &c. &c.) i've pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil/filter for me. compared to the 5-minute change he was used to for his honda, this is just a design flaw/oversight in my eyes. phj@remus.rutgers.edu 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105223">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105223" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 help! i've got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle. this is great! unfortunately, she needs at most a 28" seat. this is not great. so far, the only thing we've found was an old and unhappy-looking kz440. i have been checking out bikes (hoping for lowish seats) for a few weeks. a honda twinstar (250cc) fit me well, a honda hawk (400cc) did not, the kawasaki 250hb/sb/sh? (can't remember) looked like it would fit me well but the price tag was way too large... i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago. did anybody keep that list? please post this list or mail me one too! phj@remus.rutgers.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105224">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105224" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official (tm) dod product of choice. is there an "official dod products-of-choice" list? if so would the appropriate party please post it. p.s. if its in the faq, keep them to yourself-- i got plenty. maybe i'll go recheck them now, just to be sure 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105225">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105225" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
<context>
 but, on a similar note; for a while i drove a 1976 vw wesfalia -- this is their camper van conversion. i found that other drivers of this same model would wave to me, and i waved back. maybe its because we were all driving a funny looking vehicle? no, it is more because van drivers need a little support for driving such underpowered pathetic and truly utilitarian vehicles. me and my '71 used to wave and be waved at all across the country between nh and co. now that we live in so. cal., though, i find you'd have to damn near wave your arm off to keep up with all the van drivers! this is truly vee-dub heaven. mike taffe * disclaim this! mtaffe@ucsd.edu * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105228">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105228" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 "silver dream racer" -- frustrated brit club racer's buddy dies, leaving him a built-in-garage "revolutionary, experimental" 500 gp bike. brit club racer uses machine to beat bad american on bad japanese factory bike at british gp. filmed at silverstone, i believe. pretty | dave tharp | dod #0751 | "you can't wear out | | davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com | mra #151 | an indian scout, | | '88 k75s '48 indian chief | ahrma #751 | or its brother the chief.| | '75 r90s(#151) '72 tr-2b(#751) | ama #524737 | they're built like rocks | | '65 r50/2/velorex '57 nsu max | | to take the knocks, | | 1936 bmw r12 | (compulsive | it's the harleys that | | my employer has no idea. | joiner) | give you grief." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105229">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105229" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 what about disks? won't it erase them if you're carrying them in the bag? cathy saum ............................cs20+@andrew.cmu.edu 1252 s. negley ave.#2................'82 yamaha seca xj650 pgh, pa 15217................'73 cl450 (custom wooden tank) studio:............................'64 1/2 mustang (351 v8) (412)521-0363......dod # supercalifragilisticexpealidotious "what we see is what we know, but what we feel is who we are. what we feel is what nobody can ever take away." -t.m. mcnally until your heart stops 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105233">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105233" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 quite right, your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well, but i'd throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it. and before anyone says i'm wrong, remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry, and they are perfectly ok even after several years' storage at the shop. mark fox 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.motorcycles105234">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105234" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : well, here goes. after lurking for a long time, i'll announce myself. yes, i'm : the enemy. the enemy that also happens to ride an "arrest me red" 90 vfr. i don't generally consider police officers "the enemy". i hope you don't think bikers in general have that attitude. stereotypes suck either way. : i'll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not : apply in your state. : p.s. anyone got a nomex suit for sale? you shouldn't get flamed for being a cop. i can't promise you won't because there are jerks on this newsgroup same as any other, but if you've been lurking for a while you already know that. you might get lots of flames if you try to convince people that you know more than them just because you have a badge. and of course, you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion, no matter what the opinion is *somebody* will flame you for it. so, have you ordered any official dod paraphenalia yet? wristwatch, bandana, patches? tell your boss your going undercover with a real badass biker gang. :-) * bill ranck (703) 231-9503 bill.ranck@vt.edu * * computing center, virginia polytchnic inst. & state univ., blacksburg, va. * 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105237">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105237" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 my /5 will do wheelies because it's a chain drive model. wow, is that custom made? no, it is the stock setup. someone really ought to put an end to the confusion regarding bmw's chain drive boxers. didn't someone post the faq on this some time ago? in essence, it describes the problem bmw is having with their decision to settle down to a shaft drive as a standard. they vacilate and persist in reintroducing the chain drive in various models. (r/c) gosh. well, on with the crusade! john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105238">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105238" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 [...] therefore, there is a point in time when even though my front wheel is turned to the right i must be going straight ahead (the point when i go from the right turn to the left). [...] what you are trying to describe is that transition point where the front wheel actually reverses direction; turns backwards. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105241">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105241" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 motorcycles are not allowed on th 17 mile drive at pebble beach. are there posted signs? what do they cite you for? they don't. it's a closed access road, you pay to get in (if you don't have a resident sticker), and they simply don't open the gates if you're on a bike. ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105243">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105243" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 well maintained chains, running in oil, without those little rubber 'o' rings to cause frictional losses, might reach 99% efficiency. the average open to the dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making 90% how about some citations or is this just impressionistic speculation on your part? for 30 years i've been laboring under the delusion that chain drives were more efficient that shaft drives. chain drives are also stronger. (ever seen a successful shaftie dragster? no.) no flames, please! i've got both kinds of drives. john stafford minnesota state university @ winona all standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105244">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105244" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 : my 83 nighthawk has two (related?) problems with the ignition system: : - it won't start when on cold mornings ( 10 c, 50 f or so) : - i always need to give it gas when starting it, even when using : the clutch. : this all still happens after a tune-up and a new battery, : any ideas on what could be wrong with the bike? i think you have the choke (starter) jet blocked and even the idle one. manuel arrevola velasco ||| e-mail: manolo@taf.fundesco.es ||| fundesco zx-11 calle alcala, 61 dr-600-s 28014-madrid dod #1033 tel. 341-4351214 "don't waste your time, express it" 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105245">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105245" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 i'm just starting out with motorcycles, i've read up on the subject a bit, talked to many of my friends who own/ride bikes and encourage me to do the same. but when i ask about what kind of bike i should be looking at... i get varied answers. i'm 6'3", about 230#, large/athletic build... i suppose that would help to determine the size bike i'd want. i want something that's going to be fast and powerful enough to satisfy certain cravings once i'm used to it. i also want something that is not going to be like a bronc my first time out. any ideas?! replys are prefered through e-mail. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105249">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105249" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 / hpcc01:rec.motorcycles / xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu / 2:48 pm apr 19, 1993 / is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive? mike terry '82 virago i've seen 'em, but the real question is, can one do a wheelie on a lead wing? if so, how high would the front wheel be off the ground? graeme harrison there was a guy around here who would do them on an early pre fairing wing with a hannigan. he would get it right up and ride a ways. pretty intimidating sight. he was real good. he had to be. i guess you wouldn't get away with chopping the throttle more than once. jorg klinger | gsxr1100 | if you only new who arch. & eng. services |"lost horizons" cr500 | i think i am. umanitoba, man. ca. |"the embalmer" it175 | - anonymous --squidonk-- 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105250">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105250" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 victor johnson, on the thu, 22 apr 1993 00:01:10 gmt wibbled: : > }honda: a "v" designates a v engine street bike. "vf" for v-4, "vt" for v-twin. : > so how about my honda hawk (nt 650)? it's a twin, but not called a vt. : that's because they took the old vt 500 engine and stepped on it to make : the plant for the hawk -> "new twin". or does that only fly for microsoft : nt (new technology)? : i've been at this too long today ... : cheers, : victor "dances with hawks" johnson also the bmw stuff. k100rs. k = kraut, rs = really slow, 100, i suppose that's how much you have to spend each week to keep the damn thing on the road. nick (the pissed off with his bike again biker) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud. nick pettefar, contractor@large. /~~~\ "teneo tuus intervallum" cuurrently incarcerated at bnr, {-o^o-} npet@bnr.ca '86 bmw k100rs "kay" maidenhead, the united kingdom. \ o / pres. pbwasoh(uk), bs 0002 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105253">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105253" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 |another good place for your helmet is your mirror (!). i kid you not. if |you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors |that screw into your handlebars, your helmet should fit over your mirror |and be fairly stable. butt, butt, then yu w0nt be able t0 $ee the car$ $neak!g up behind yu and p0p a whhheeeeelllleeeee t0 d!tchum and the chick$ dig it! seriously, though, putting a helmet on a mirror is inadvisable because you are then resting the weight of the helmet on the fragile foam liner that is expected to cushion your noggin. and once crushed, that foam never pops back. a variation of mirror hanging thing is what i do; with the bike on the sidestand (hey, the centerstand is for maintenance) i turn the wheel to the stop (left) and can hang the helmet by the chin-bar on the right grip. there is no crushable foam in the chin-bar, and it is pretty secure on there (as long as the forks are locked). if i have to leave the helmet with the parked bike (and the bags aren't on/full), that is about the most stable place. dave svoboda (svoboda@void.rtsg.mot.com) | "i'm getting tired of 90 concours 1000 (mmmmmmmmmm!) | beating you up, dave. 84 rz 350 (ring ding) (woops!) | you never learn." ama 583905 dod #0330 cog 939 (chicago) | -- beth "bruiser" dixon 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105254">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105254" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 hey, the lone biker of the apocalypse (see raising arizona) had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes. i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires, especially underneath overpasses at night (it's loud and lights up the whole underpass!!! neal howard '91 xlh-1200 dod #686 computrac, inc (richardson, tx) doh #0000001200 |355o33| neal@cmptrc.lonestar.org std disclaimer: my opinions are mine, not computrac's. "let us learn to dream, gentlemen, and then perhaps we shall learn the truth." -- august kekule' (1890) 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105255">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105255" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ...and i see that for the past 30 miles i've been riding with my side stand down. oops! and who was it that insisted sidestand cutout switches were right up there with tachometers, something like a curse from god? ed green, former ninjaite |i was drinking last night with a biker, ed.green@east.sun.com |and i showed him a picture of you. i said, dod #0111 (919)460-8302 |"go on, get to know her, you'll like her!" (the grateful dead) --> |it seemed like the least i could do... 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105256">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105256" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the $35 while $500 is not quite one week's beer money for me... well know i know how you can afford a harley. keith schauer texas instruments plain o, texas 80 cb900 custom dod #0901 in an insane society, the sane man must appear insane. ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105261">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105261" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 after failing my state of new hampshire noise gestapo test with my hd slash cut pipes i installed my new bubs (which i had been planning to do anyway), went to a different in spection station, and passed with no problem at about 97 db. two points: first, i don't think the first dude did the noise test correctly. holding the meter close to his body probably caused a high reading, and doing it inside the garage with the door closed undoubtedly enhanced the db level! so if any other nh riders need to get this done, make sure the inspection is done outdoors with the meter held well away from the body. second, these bub pipes are bloody terrific. at low revs or cruising through town, they as quiet as the stock pipes, but have a sound thats a more throaty, purring, rumble. when you open her up to >3000 rpm they emit a wonderfully satisfying rumbling roar. best of both worlds! russ hughes '92 fxstc dod# 6022(10e20) "the chrome and steel she rides.....collidin' with the very air she breathes..." -- n. young 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105263">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105263" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 in a previous article, phj@remus.rutgers.edu (p. ju) says: a friend of mine (who's probably reading this right now) just bought a new yamaha virago 750. after spending 1-2 hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts (had to remove the right peg, loosen the brake pedal, &c. &c.) i've pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil/filter for me. compared to the 5-minute change he was used to for his honda, this is just a design flaw/oversight in my eyes. phj@remus.rutgers.edu sure don't know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn't a virago. i've owned both the 750 and 1100 and you can do the filter change in about 5 mins and nothing has to be removed. obviously the "new" bike was modified as the stock machine is simple to work on. watching for imitators!! lloyd -- aa963@freenet.carleton.ca carr -- carr@uranus.dgrc.doc.ca dod # 0814 ve3fhc@ve3osq.amrp.org.#eon.on.can.ca 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105381">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105381" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 3500 miles, black leather tank bra, tank bag, corbin seat, metzler 'b' tires. garaged and pampered. i can't afford to continue paying nyc garage fees for two bikes so one of 'em has to go. best offer above $4500 takes it. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105517">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105517" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 ooooooopsssss. for a second there i thought i was in rec.beatthelivingcrapoutofadog we're not???! hell, i was wondering why there was all the pointless woffle about motorcycles. so how do i find rec.beatthelivingcrapoutofadog? i dont think our system takes it. 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105558">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105558" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 quick question: what are the advantages of slip-on's versus your stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems? i don't see many people using slip-on's but they are heavily advertised and half as expensive. thanks! cost is lower than oem replacements and they weigh less. also, in most instances you do not have to rejet the carburetors to get a little more performance. i replaced my oem canister with an ontario systems slip on. the mid-range performance is better but i also notice a slight stumble at 2-3k rpm. after talking to kaz yoshima, the developer and manufacturer of the slip on, he thinks i might need larger pilot, idle, jets. was not suppose to but maybe where i live makes a difference. altitude, barometric pressure... anyway, besides that minor glitch, i like the slip on performance and the sound, which is louder than stock, but not loud enough to annoy folks. the ontario slip on use some sort of sound baffling technique to reduce the sound at full just remember, every bike is a tuned system. when you change the intake or exhaust characteristics beyond the allowable delta of the manufacturer, you may have to change other areas to compensate. like a complete change of the exhaust system, header and muffler, changes the exhaust characteristic to the point which re-jetting is required to compensate for the new engine breathing/pumping talk with the folks who make the slip on you intend to use and ask them if they have used it on your particular bike. check with people who have the system also to see what they think about there slip on. also, as a last data point, in sport rider's first issue, did a review on a group of header and exhaust systems for the cbr600f2. they also included, as a side bar, the ontario slip on, the dyno showed an increase from stock of 5bhp at the rear wheel, 85 verses 91. buyer beware, of outrageous claimed increases in horse power! it may have been true in the past, but not today! |[0]---[0] | _|___ |_| 1991 cbr600f2 ___|_ (_____) allen tobias technical email: (_____) (_____) convex computer corp. marketing tobias@convex.com (_____) (_____) 3000 waterview parkway (_____) (___) richardson, tx 75083 (___) "this bike is awesome and i'm fearless. let's go."--jay gleason 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105563">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105563" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons.\ do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see/do/avoid. plans are to see bryce, zion, arches. is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required? any help would be nice. thank you for your support. no, the grand canyon is not too far away. short side trips to kolob (between cedar city and hurricane) and pipe springs (on the way from hurricane to the grand canyon) may be interesting--they are right off the highway. pipe springs (a small fort) gives you real insight into just how the pioneers lived. you have missed one major must see attraction--cedar breaks in the mountains above cedar city. take lots of film--they have a reason for calling this kodachrome country. natural bridges in the four corners area is also very scenic, but may be too far off your route. monument valley is spectacular, but again may be too far away. rich tweedie 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles105662">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles105662" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 is there a buying guide for new/used motorcycles (that lists reliability, how to go about the buying process, what to look for, etc...)? _cycle world_ puts one out, but i'm sure it's not very objective. try talking with dealers and the people that hang out there, as well as us. we love to give advice. is there a pricing guide for new/used motorcycles (blue book)? most of the bigger banks have a blue book which includes motos -- ask for the one with rvs in it. are there any books/articles on riding cross country, motorcycle camping, etc? couldn't help you here. is there an idiots' guide to motorcycles? you're reading it. | cliff weston dod# 0598 '92 seca ii (tem) | | "the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body | | is lumpy and hairy and should not be seen by the light of day." | 
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<instance id="rec.motorcycles72052">
<answer instance="rec.motorcycles72052" senseid="rec.motorcycles"/>
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 -->it turns out that the trailer lights were not hooked up -->to the truck. --yep, basic rule: *never* expect or believe turn signals completely. --around here, and many other places, people just don't signal at all. --and, sometimes the signals aren't working. sometimes they get left on. the scary bit about this is the is the non-availability of rear- lights at all. now living in the netherlands i've learned that the only reliable indicators are those red ones which go on at both sides at once - some people call them brake lights. once they light up, expect anything to occur in front of you :-). (it's not just the dutch though) however i never realised how much i relied on this until i got caught a few times behind someone whose lights didn't work at all. once i'd sussed it out it wasn't so bad (knowing it is half the battle), but it's a great way to find out that you've been following someone too closely :-). now i try to check for lights all the time, 'cos that split second can make all the difference (though it shouldn't be necessary, i know), what used to peeve me in canada was the cars with bloody _red_ rear indicators. you'd see a single red light come on and think, "now, is he stopping but one brake-lamp is not working, or does he have those dumb bloody _red_ rear indicators?" this being survival 101, you have to assume he's braking and take the appropriate actions, until such time as the light goes out and on again, after which you can be reasonably certain it's a bloody _red_ rear indicator. ivan reid, paul scherrer institute, ch. ivan@cvax.psi.ch gsx600f, rg250wd. si=2.66 "you porsche. me pass!" dod #484 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102151">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102151" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hell, the orioles' opening day game could easily be the largest in history if we had a stadium with 80,000 seats. but unfortunely the yards (a definitely excellent ballpark) only holds like 45,000 with 275 sro spots. ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast. bleacher seats are almost gone for every game this year. it's a extremely likelyhood that the o's could sell out every game this year (especially if we lead the division for most of the year like '89). on another front, the sale of the orioles to anyone is likely to be forced upon eli jacobs who is major debt apparently. maybe we can get an owner willing to spend on a proven rightfielder free agent in the winter. fernando has made the o's as the fifth starter. the o's pitching staff looks pretty good. sutcliffe, mussina, mcdonald, rhodes, and fernando. baltimore is my pick for the victors in a very competitive al east. |admiral steve c. liu internet address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu| |"committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms | |and their rehabilitation into society" from red dwarf - "polymorph" | |****the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****| | this sig has been brought to you by... frungy! the sport of kings! | second to last day of the season - gregg (the true wild thing) olson uncorks a wild pitch allowing the blue jays to tie. blue jays win in the 11th and ends the baby birds' miracle season of '89. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102585">
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 i say buy out henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries. next season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing. that goes for any bitching ball player. i doubt henderson would clear waivers. and if he did, he would instantly be signed for the major league minimum, with oakland picking up the remaining $3 million tab. some gms value on-field performance too... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102587">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102587" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the rotation has changed due to a "strange" injury to scott erickson. he developed a twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the rotation. new rotation (to the best of my mind's knowledge) is: kevin tapani, jim deshais, pat mahomes, willie banks. add mike trombley in there somewhere, since they need five people. mark guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty. as to ss and 3b: short will be played by scott leius who played short for much of his career before the twins. at third mike pagliarulo and jeff reboulet will platoon. pags and terry jorgenson will platoon at third, with reboulet as the backup infielder. pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for a guy who lead the league in da in 1991, muffing what should be routine grounders (heck, muffing a grounder *i* would probably have gotten to). jorgenson did nothing exceptional that i noticed. leius missed a ball i *think* gagne would have reached; we will certainly miss gag's glove this season. winfield has struggled during preseason. sunday against the colorado rockies he went 2 for 3 with 2 rbis and scored once. he looked pretty good there. contrary to what the mediots have been saying, he looked reasonable at first. he isn't mid-80s hrbek, but then neither is the pretty big guy himself any more (note: i'm used to seeing the twins 1b looking kinda big on the field, but not that big!). if he hits vaguely like last year, he's a perfectly good first baseman. note: much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in a game where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings. winfield may have big holes in his defensive game that didn't show up (he didn't have to pick any bad throws, for example), but i'll take what i saw so far. david thornley "have tickets, will travel to dome" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102590">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102590" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule. any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated. 00ecgillespie "magic" should be rescinded. the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each. let's keep it that way. last weeks sports illustrated has a couple of big articles on the designated hitter. it is the 1993 baseball issue. th is weeks sports illustrated 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102591">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102591" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 philadelphia at chicago: teams tied for 1st after sunday dick redding battled chet brewer in the first game of a dramatic four game series. one friday, one saturday, and a good-old sunday doubleheader. "what could be better," declared ernie banks. perhaps the fact that the cubs are challenging? "it's pitching, it's always been pitching that we've lacked," announced ryne sandberg. "if we can get by brewer, then beat carlton, alexander, or bunning - preferrably 2 of the last three - we'll know we might be able to "lord, i hope we pull it off." the phils scored once in the top of the first; richie ashburn singled, pete rose followed with a hit, sending ashburn around second. kiki cuyler cut the ball off in left center, and threw a bullet in to ernie banks, who threw to ron santo to get ashburn at third. rose went to second on the play. christobel torrienti lifted a long fly to center, moving pete rose to third. schmidt was walked - the cubs were absolutely refusing to let him beat them. both torrienti and schmidt will likely draw 130-150 walks this year. chuck klein is starting to hit very well, and he lashed a double into a gap in right-center. "cool papa" bell's speed allowed him to cut the ball off and prevent schmidt from scoring. nellie fox was walked, and bob boone grounded out to second, ending the threat. "teams are starting to realize that you don't have to pitch to schmidt or torrienti, and that is lowering their run total. it puts a lot of pressure on klein and dick allen (who platoons with chuck klein and occasionally spells rose at first), and it's a credit to the phillies that they've been able to sustain their pace. the picthers have slumped at times." so came the analysis from frank chance. the cubs got that run back when bell bunted for a hit, thomas' grounder moved him to second, and - after sandberg made out - billy williams singled home a run. in the sixth, ron santo launched a two-run homer to make it 3-1. dick redding got in trouble in the eighth, as schmidt singled and klein singled him to third. ed reulbach entered to face fox, but dick allen popped out of the dugout to hit. allen doubled to right, but luckily for the cubs, williams had moved to left and andre dawson had been inserted for defense. he fired a bullet to home plate to keep klein at third. lance parrish, hitting for boone, was walked, and bruce sutter entered. larry bowa grounded into a 1-2-3 double play, but ed delahanty walked as a pinch-hitter. desiring a strikeout, since ashburn was likely to attempt a bunt hit with the quick trillo pinch-running at third, chance brought in lee smith, who induced a pop-up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder, ending the inning. the cubs took the win, 3-2, moving a game behind the phillies. steve carlton was called upon to battle 3-finger brown saturday. to get another righthander in the lineup, ron santo moved to first and bill madlock played third. unfortunately, brown allowed six doubles, and the cub bullpen was worn down even more, as the cubs tried to maintain a lead against lefty. madlock, batting sixth, had knocked two doubles of his own, driving home four runs. gabby hartnett hit two home runs, and cuyler added another, and the score was 8-6, cubs after six innings. the phillie bullpen had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth, as the cubs grabbed 3 more runs to ice an 11-7 triumph. sunday's twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits at one point, including a rare outside-the-park home run in the second game, off robin roberts. grover alexander of the phils took the first contest, 4-2, but the cubs captured the second one 5-4, with waddell gaining the win. bruce sutter tossed two innings for the save, though he allowed one run in the eighth. the cardinals stood half a game behind these co-leaders, and would conclude their series with the expos on monday. montreal at st. louis(august 3-6): 3-way tie for 1st dennis martinez is on a roll, and he continued it versus john tudor friday. the expos have a wide variety of hitters, and - while they aren't among the all-time greats, they are getting the job done. after winning their first first two games, they suddenly found themselves only 2 1/2 games out of first in this wacky season. martinez triumphed 5-3 on friday, and williams outdueled dizzy dean 3-2 saturday. however, the cardinals refused to give up, winning 6-2 on sunday. the cards captured monday's game, too, as steve carlton outdueled steve rogers 3-2. "we're really good against ground ball pitchers because of our team speed," remarked lou brock. "i don't see why we can't win this division." the phillies and cubs may have some reasons for them. two-thirds of the way through the season, there is a 3-way tie for first. new york at pittsburgh(august 3-6): 3 straight 3-2 wins for bucs, now 2 back - but in 4th! "when your team is in a slump like we are, the worst thing is to play in a pitcher's park like this," spoke gil hodges before the series. keith hernandez added that "their defense takes away quite a few runs per year, and it must be giving them an extra 6-7 wins." the pirates have made only 26 errors all season, 6 ahead of the second place dodgers. error totals tend to be around 50 for the best defensive all-time teams. rube foster defeated sid fernandez 5-2 friday, and candelaria outshone seaver 3-2 saturday, in a game featuring some outstanding defense. when nolan ryan and two relivers 6-hit the mets in another 3-2 win sunday, the pirates could once again look forward to a victory getting them back to the .500 mark. they had been unable to several times in the past month. bert blyleven met dwight gooden in the afternoon game. both pitchers possessed fantastic stuff, and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home runs - a solo shot by rusty staub of the mets and a two-run blast by ralph kiner for the pirates. the mets' darryl strawberry singled home a run in the top of the ninth off jesse orosco, working his second inning, after mookie wilson pinch-ran for gary carter at second. with one out and a runner on first, lee mazilli was sent in to pinch-hit. the pirates countered with kent tekulve, placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting barry bonds in left field as the ninth place hitter. tekulve induced a groundout forcing strawberry at second. he slid hard into honus wagner, preventing the pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon. tekulve allowed a hit, but clemente threw mazilli out at third from near the right field line, ending the inning. tug mcgraw relieved randy myers, who entered to pitch the eighth, and got one out before bonds launched a rocket to deep center, running through the stop sign at third to score an inside-the-park homer to win. the pirates had scored an improbable 3 straight 3-2 wins, and had moved to within 2 games of first place, with seven weeks to go. san francisco at boswaukta(august 3-5): another sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule, as the giants managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting pitching that just wouldn't tire. in fact, reported manager john mcgraw, "once this rough part of the schedule is over, maybe as early as this coming week, we may shift to a 4-man rotation again for a little while." juan marichal continued his hot pitching friday, beating lew burdette and the braves 4-1. willie mays had all four r.b.i.s on 3 hits. rick reuschel faced joe niekro saturday in a slugfest. the braves' park had been a homer haven, but this took the cake, as the giants won a seesaw affair 16-13. willie mays had three homers, willie mccovey, eddie matthews, and don baylor had two, and hank aaron, ernie lombardi, biz mackey, and mel ott had one each. the braves had collected 149 home runs going into sunday's doubleheader, putting them on a pace for 223, which would be 4 short of the national league record. they were still a tad behind the '61 yankees' pace. they had allowed over 120, though. vida blue actually got the win after retiring 2 batters in the fifth. he allowed only a run in the sixth, but faltered in the seventh. joe mcginnity earned the save. in the doubleheader, the braves' hoyt wilhelm failed to hold a lead in the first game, but hank aaron homered off bill foster in the eighth as the braves won, 4-3. the giants took the second game, however, by a 6-2 score. the homer by aaron was a magical #150 by the braves; however, they fell to three game below .500, making a comeback extremely unlikely. san diego at cincinnati(aug. 3-5): randy jones faced ewell blackwell in the first of this 3-game series, and the padres felt rather good. with don mattingly straining his back in the last cleveland game, the trade looked even better. mcgriff's batting average was even rising. of course, the bench was very poor, and joe gordon was only adequate in the outfield, but these were minor problems, since the pitching was holding up. jones pitched a good game friday, and won 6-3. mcgriff launched two home runs. mel harder earned a win with the help of mark davis and ray narleski saturday; 5-4 was the final score. tom candiotti battled satchel paige to a 3-3 tie through eight innings before departing. the game was scoreless for 4 more innings until the thirteenth. paige had departed after 10, and john franco hurled a scoreless inning. tom browning was working his second scoreless inning, when dave winfield doubled with one out and joe gordon was pitched around. thurm munson doubled both runners home, and the padres gamed a 5-3 win. the three-game sweep had pulled the giants into a tie with the reds. though the reds denied it, the highly emotional series with the dodgers may have taken too much out of them. brookangeles at houston(august 3-5): another series capped off by a weekend doubleheader took place in the wide open plains of the astrodome. the astros sent joe niekro to the hill in the first game, opposite don drysdale. "normally," drysdale remarked, "i would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them. i can't afford to with this team, though; we have to get our own runners going; we can't afford to let the astros beat us." he then winked and said: "well, maybe davis will get decked once." the fact that glenn davis leads the team in homers with six (!) is primarily why he would be decked, but it should be understood that his current pace would give him nine for the season. the hitting on this team is a little better, but the power is all doubles and triples. still, carl furillo is the main reason no astro home runs were hit over the weekend, as he threw two runners out trying for inside-the-park homers. for those unaware of the nastness of the astros' park, they have a 23-foot high gray wall all around the outfield; balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs. the foul poles are 355 feet from home plate, but the alleys are 400 feet away, with center field at 420 feet. "it's as if some three-year-old threw a tantrum and told his playmates: 'if i can't hit home runs, nobody will hit home runs'," remarked roy campanella. the dodgers stole five bases friday, but the astros decided to revitalize the baltimore chopping that had failed 6 weeks before; for tonight, anyway, davis, jim wynn, and jose cruz did not have to mess with their swings, according to the manager. after poles and willie wells reached base via the baltimore chop, drysdale decked jose cruz with a pitch. he responded with a two-run double, but wynn - playing first for davis - popped up, and the astros didn't score any more in that inning. they did score 3 in the fourth to erase a 3-2 deficit, and the astros wound up winning 6-4. they threatened to do even better the next game, as tommy john would be their opponent. walt alston met privately with the starters at 6 a.m. before the game. "i think i know how we can beat the baltimore chop," he explained. "how can we do that," pee wee reese wondered. "they're going to be beating the ball down, so we've got to be ready to throw on the run. steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt, but i want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws. we'll go with a shallow infield almost the whole time." the plan almost worked. mike scott allowed only two runs through eight innings, but the astros got three; two of them scored when bill doran pushed a bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and third. 3-2 astros was the final, with dave smith earning another save. the dodgers scored a victory in the first game of the twin bill sunday, as nolan ryan walked five, three of whom scored in a 4-1 dodger win. fernando valenzuela lost the second game 4-2 to don sutton, however, as the dodgers' thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough. "we're mostly a power team," remarked ron cey. "jackie and, when he plays, maury wills are our only real speed demons, though a couple other plays can do it now and then. we're sunk in a place like the astrodome. i guess that's why they're so successful there." indeed, it seems that basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome. the 'stros swiped 12 bases in 16 attempts, giving them 230 on the season. standings after these weekend series: a.l.east team w l gb new york 68 42 -- cleveland 65 46 3.5 detroit 64 46 4 boston 64 47 4.5 baltimore 59 52 9.5 toronto 43 69 25.5 washington 39 73 28 a.l.west oaksaselphia 63 48 -- minnesota 61 48 1 chicago 59 53 4.5 kansas city 57 54 6.5 california 57 56 8 milwaukee 45 66 17 seattle 32 78 31.5 n.l.east chicago 57 53 -- philadelphia 58 54 -- st. louis 58 54 -- pittsburgh 56 56 2 montreal 53 56 3.5 new york 48 64 10 n.l.west brookangeles 66 46 -- cincinnati 66 47 0.5 san francisco 65 46 0.5 boswaukta 54 56 11 houston 50 61 17.5 san diego 36 75 29.5 doug fowler: dxf12@po.cwru.edu : me, age 4 & now: "mommys and daddys & other ever wonder if, after casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it? : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!" 
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 the highest single-game attendance was game 5 of the 1959 world series, october 6, at the la coliseum. white sox over dodgers, 1-0. gate? officially 92,706. largest regular-season game? 78,672, again in la, for the first game in the city of angels -- opening day, april 18, 1958 (home opener, anyway). the rockies might really nail the record. the record attendance for a doubleheader is larger, but since dh's are all but nonexistent nowadays, why bother listing it... wasn't there an 85,000 new york at cleveland game in the late 40's? jhon rickert rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu prediction for 1993: marlins: 70 wins, rockies: 50 wins 
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 |> does anyone know where i can get a list of nationally televised |> games, such as espn and tbs? i live on the east coast and i'd |> like to catch as many giants games as i possibly can! this list is published every week in baseball weekly. brian curran mead data central brian@meaddata.com "that was not swimming. that was bathing." - a german reporter, after watching 1972 olympic superstar swimmer mark spitz get badly beaten during a 1991 comeback race 
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 jayson stark (i trhink that's him) fits perfectly in this category. anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers - at this pace, he'll have 324 home runs!" should be shot. if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too. - bob gaj 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102602">
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 hmm - i thought francesca's predictions always hovered at or below .500, especially in the nfl. (not counting college football bowl day). he's a nice analyst for explaining past tense, and for mapping out what plays teams might do - but for predicting the future, he only looks good whne compared to russo. - bob gaj 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102604">
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 mss@netcom.com (mark singer) said: i meant that one should not let the exception make the rule. it's not an exception. good players come up young; most players who come up young will be good. this has always been the rule. are most players who come up young always good when they're young, or worse: it's not a "shift". this is the way it has *always* been. several detailed studies of this have been done, and they've all shown that players aren't coming up any younger or older than in the past, and they aren't playing any more or less in the minors than they used to. the only thing that shifts is our memories of the "good old days" :-). damn. i was afraid you would say that! but all after the fact, which makes it *not* applicable to the current discussion, which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who hasn't "established himself" in the majors over the mediocre veteran. the padres played santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth well, perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there. but they do have others worth playing, at least in *their* opinion. and i happen to agree. both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers, expected to be among the best ever in baseball. not by rec.sport.baseball consensus. that may sound like an incredibly arrogant comment, but i've found that the sdcn consensus (when one exists) is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of "baseball people" affiliated with mlb. i can believe that. i'm a newbie here, so i'll take your word. but alomar *is* a fine defensive catcher, which was my statement above. that is a solid reason for bringing him up at a tender age, as long as they feel he can also hit a bit. lopez does not have such a consensus about his defensive prowess, and imho that is enough to give him that dreaded "seasoning". i don't know "who knows". i suppose the same people (or similar) who "know" he will be better than some other catcher. these are, of course, just differing opinions. i read that his arm is not that strong (i suppose somewhere there is some measurement of sb ratios) and that he is still learning to call a game. that latter skill may be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of his performance, but it is a tangible skill. i disagree, in that i don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than leadership is. i don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers may be much better than others at it, but i really don't see any way that we could ever know who they are. nichols's law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very sorry. new. don't know nichols' law. don't believe in catchers' era. but i am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers. any info on that? absolutely. the evidence is piling up, year after year. the only other alternative is that the braves really don't *know* that their young players are, on average, better than their current starters. i'm not ruling out that kind of gross incompetence, but i think the salary-schedule explanation is more charitable. in other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial. i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta, no? consider: we *know* that the braves are about the strongest team in baseball right now, even with olson and lemke and nixon and bream in the lineup. they have as good a chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has. it actually makes some sense to say "rather than making our team marginally better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly, let's go ahead and compete this year with what we have, and then bring up the studs only as we *have* to, so that we'll still have them under reserve three years from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions." is it fair to the young players? no. does it make organizational sense? i think it does. well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them for their decisions. i mean, please don't tell me how to run my business. especially when i'm being successful. c: i could make it 107 or 108 wins if you let me bring up lopez. s: listen, bobby. i'd like to. but the way i see it, if he hits the big club this year we'll be paying mega-arbitration bucks down the road in a couple of years and there's no way i want to do that. ...and continues with we can win without him, and then _keep_ winning next year with him. how's that? i'm sure you could be right. you could also be smoking some illegal (hey. that's a joke. don't get offended. please.) hey, i'd love to be wrong about this. if you think it's unlikely, i'd love to know why. don't cite anybody's innate ethical rectitude, though, unless you know them personally. well, i can't cite anyone's ethical rectitude because i don't know what it means. :) but again, if it makes organizational sense, then so be it. baseball is a business, and if there is a solid business reason for keeping lopez on the farm then that's what the braves *should* do. i happen to believe that it's a baseball decision. while you from your armchair may disagee, i don't. i think there is a lot of evidence to suggest the decision they made. i predicted it among large guffaws from several at the start of spring training. i think it is a very *normal* decision to have made. it is certainly more reversible than to have started lopez in the bigs and have released one of their catchers. sure, it may be conservative. it may also be logical. i don't know what ethics have to do with it. seems like pretty good common sense to me. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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 robert c hite writes here are the projected lineups, benches, rotation and bullpen for the 1993 national league east champion philadelphia phillies: i think the only phillies in effect here are philly blunts. of course, if this all becomes true, i'll be the first to smoke one myself. david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102606">
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 mike francesa mentioned his '93 baseball picks in passing on the radio yesterday. being that this is francesa talkin', the opinions are well worth consideration. indeed! after all, he was the wizard foresaw the year of the big east in the ncaa tournament! unfortunatly, none of those teams made it into the sweet sixteen, much less new orleans. neither did he! overall mike francesa has an *outstanding* prediction record. overall? how do you figure? ignore him at your own peril. so far my radio hasn't exploded from not being tuned to 660... 
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 1. mo vaughn can hit .400 in the spring. 1b. mo vaughn can only hit .230 during the season. excellent point. i hope to god that ted simmons doesn't get the weird idea of trading for the guy. and if he does, he had better not include jeff king in the deal. oh god--what if he traded zane smith and jeff king for vaughn and greg blosser? it would be worse than the nichols curse! hmm, i guess that doesn't sound sincere enough. oh well, at least i tried... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102609">
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 i was watching peter gammons on espn last night, and he's got me a little while talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they'll be facing: mcgriff hitting 50 home runs, sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and glavine winning 25 games. this was, of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's). what really confused me, though, was the mention of *al* players who would do well next year. specifically, roger clemens winning 25 games, and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting 50 home runs. my question is: how in the hell will the rockies/marlins help the al? the last time i looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues. did i miss something? dennis cleary dfcleary@ucdavis.edu i wondered the same thing. when he first mentioned it, i thought he was just making a mistake but then he said it over and over. and then in the examples from other years, he gave stats for players from both leagues even when only one league expanded. so (since stats *never* lie :-) ), i guess there is an effect on both leagues because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up players that, normally, they would not have had there not been expansion. make sense? 
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 greetings baseballers, i have a choice of two more or less identical conferences to attend, one in denver, and one in dallas, both may 24-28. could some kind rockies or rangers (they do play in the dallas area, right?) fans please let me know if are home dates for that week. i'd love to catch a game. 
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 date: mon, 5 apr 1993 00:19:45 -0400 from: karim edvard ahmed <ka0k+@andrew.cmu.edu> since i haven't been able to keep up with baseball much this season, i have a few questions about my favorite team, the minnesota twins: 1. how good does their rotation look? the last i heard, the order is tapani, erikson, mahomes, banks, and some guy i've never heard of. (sounds pretty pathetic to me) well, maybe it will be. banks is a 24 year-old prospect who "hasn't matured as quickly as they would have liked. mahomes is a 22 year-old who is very highly touted. tapani and erickson are also young, and have looked very good this spring. the last spot was between jim deshaies, formerly of houston and s.d. and mike trombley. deshaies hasn't looked very good this spring, so i believe that the spot has gone to trombley, although they hadn't wanted 3 starters this unproven. i personally believe very highly in mahomes and trombley. 2. who is playing short and third? well, scott leius is the shortstop. he played mostly 3b last year, but was a ss in the minors, and moved back after gagne left to k.c. 3b is split (maybe) between pagliarulo, who has had a great spring, and terry jorgenson, a good looking kid who has languished in portland for 3 years. i'm not sure how the time will be divided, but they seem to be happy with what they have here. i like jorgenson, but i fear they might give too much time to pags. 3. how's winfield doing? sorry, can't help you here. 
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 being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band i was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead (or members of) sang the national anthem at todays giant opener? i would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know, but an answer would be greatly appreciated. robert margesson umaine hockey 156 park st. c5 black bears orono, me 04473 1993 ncaa champs (207)866-7342 42-1-2 
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 well, it really isn't this cut and dry, but as a jay fan the thing i feared worst has happened. the yanks sent down williams g and are going to start williams b in cf. i also believe they kept wickman and millitello in their rotation, which is much nicer than that kaminiecki and mike witt combo i thought they'd throw out their to the slaughterhouse because of their "experience". granted, witt "might" be good, but i think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters up and not given the job to witt because he was a good pitcher and has the yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards; the jays with the loss of dave stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their pitching staff. the orioles should also be there in the end..... gord niguma (to salvage the season, let jj olerud win mvp) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102620">
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 bo jackson 1963 1988 kcr 437 106 16 4 23 28 29 7 .253 67 .243 .288 .455 1989 kcr 517 134 19 5 33 41 27 10 .274 92 .259 .314 .507 1990 kcr 405 110 17 1 27 44 16 9 .286 77 .272 .343 .519 1991 cws 71 16 3 0 3 12 0 1 .240 10 .225 .337 .394 maj 1430 366 55 10 86 125 72 27 .270 246 .256 .316 .489 maj 598 153 23 4 36 52 30 11 this is what jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. his equivalent average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. so let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level of play. that is good. very good, in fact. but it probably doesn't make the top ten in the league. the 10th best eqa in the al in 1992 was dave winfield's .296; thomas was first at .350. first in the nl was bonds, an incroyable .378; tenth was bip roberts, .297. but .280 is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter; it is about what mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what felix jose had the last two years; just ahead of time raines' five-year average; better than ryan klesko's mles. he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting. that is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. i think he was a good, maybe very good hitter. he was imo, something like the 30th best hitter in the majors. clay d. 
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 jayson stark (i think that's him) fits perfectly in this category. could be. there is a jayson stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate and also for baseball america. anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers - at this pace, he'll have 324 home runs!" should be shot. if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too. stark has done this sort of thing, but he has never been serious about it. he usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of such columns. i think he did it one season and some manager was "projected" to be thrown out of 60 games and some hitter could expect to be plunked 150 times. stark does some really funny stuff. his weekly baseball reviews are good collections of strange things that happened during the previous week. he also regularly prints kinerisms. lance "cr2o3.2h2o" smith | "moments after being named manager for the (lsmith@cs.umn.edu) | oakland a's, mr peanut was crushed by a special limited edition | red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat." r.s.bb .signature | _murder at the mausoleum_ 
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 sorry, this doesn't fly. the good players have *always* been ready for the majors early. how many hofers were *not* contributing major leaguers by the time they were 22? that brings up an interesting point. anyone else catch espn's piece about prospects and the relationship between age, career length, mvps and hall of fame members? it was part of their preseason special. basically, they looked at players that had amassed 1000 plate appearances (or abs) by the time they were 24, and noticed some interesting things. for starters, they found out such players comprised the majority of mvps in the history of the game. they also found out such players represented the majority of the players in the hall of fame. the kicker, though, was that they actually did some number-crunching and found that such players' careers lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group. they also found that these players produced at both a greater level of performance and produced over twice the raw totals (hrs, etc) of the other players. the first group outhit the second something like .282 to .260 in raw ba, and blew away the second group in such categories as hrs, 2bs, rbis, etc. it was the most impressive thing i've seen on espn in recent memory. i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight. dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays - do it again in '93 kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu new .. quotes out of context! "not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - stephen lawrence 
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 bosox 3 royals 1 wp: clemens (1-0) lp: appier (0-1) key hit: mike greenwell's 2 out tripple with bases loaded. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102626">
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 that brings up an interesting point. anyone else catch espn's piece about prospects and the relationship between age, career length, mvps and hall of fame members? it was part of their preseason special. wow. espn can repeat eleven-year-old bill james research. (literally. check the 1982 abstract.) it was the most impressive thing i've seen on espn in recent memory. perhaps in 2004 they'll be as reliable as an average sdcn. i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight. oops, maybe not. ted frank | "however teel should have mentioned that though thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | his advice is legally sound, if you follow it the u of c law school | you will probably wind up in jail." standard disclaimers | -- james donald, in misc.legal 
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 usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been any thoughts on the new (old) reds uniforms. i remember seeing a pete rose rookie card, and unless i miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds. the mets (how about doc's performance today?!!!!!) have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey. to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me a little of the dodger logo. many teams have opted for a return to a previous style of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional. (phillies, reds, expos, white sox, padres, etc.) and the once bright colors have been altered to gray. the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties. with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be. 
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 will clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck........all came up through the giants system. geez. everyone comes up with clark, williams, thompson. these guys were all up in 1987. that's ancient history. so in the last 6 years, noone, right? beck doesn't count. i said 2 solid years. btw, manwaring lead the ml last season in throwing out baserunners. he is an excellent defensive catcher. i agree that his offensive skills are limited but he does seem to be improving on them. let's see what he does w/o the help of a pitchout every other pitch. as i remember, even bob brenly had a good throwout percentage under roger craig, who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown out. of course, he suffered from 3 ball 1 strike homers a lot too. i am not a big fan of manwaring. --dave 
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 is there any doubt that this is true? after a few down years, the a.l. east is back to where it was in the early eighties. with the emergence of the o's and the yanks, it is far and away the best. while the n.l. west has the best team in baseball, and the reds aren't bad either, they have nothing else. the giants, astros, and padres all have talent, they do not have the all arounf teams that are found in the a.l. east. and the dodgers just plain suck. as for the rockies, who knows? the a.l. east has the defending champs, and although they lost a lot to free agency, toronto is still one of the best in baseball. the orioles have the preseason favorite to win the cy young in mike mussina, and you can never forget about ripken. the signings of harold baines and harold reynolds don't hurt to much either, although i always liked bill ripken. while they let a lot go this summer (randy milligan, joe orsulak, bill ripken, bob milacki, sam horn, storm davis, and craig lefferts), they kept the heart of their team my predicted finish: 1. baltimore (could be a biased opinion) 2. ny yankees 3. toronto 4. milwaukee 5. detroit 6. boston 7. cleveland (would have been higher if not for the accident) go o's!!!!!!!! 
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 briefly, since i'm off to sleep. mle's work pretty well for aa nd aaa players. players who are 22 and younger will tend to have explosions in their numbers, whether mmle's or not, in the next 2 years... players who are 26 and older, at those levels, generally have inflated mle's. they're about as reliable as having major league stats for a player. - bob gaj 
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 ladies and gentleman, step one was taken on the phils' triumphant trip this year tonight! (yes, that was english!) mulholland's era after tonight's game? 0.00...nice try drabek! ninja jew 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102641">
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 here's an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball... what city do the california angels play out of? richard j. rauser "you have no idea what you're doing." rauser@sfu.ca "oh, don't worry about that. we're professional wni outlaws - we do this for a living." "remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -dr.banzai 
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 the phillies were picked to be in first. someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who picked the mets last year. my reply: yeah, that may be true, but this is the phillies. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102643">
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 ok - sorry about that...i didn't realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things. but i'll tell you, mike lupica (daily news) usually says some pretty funny things in his "shooting from the lip" columns... - bob gaj y'know, if current trends continue, the florida marlins will be the first expansion team to go 162-0 and outscore their opponents by 486 runs. ted frank | "however teel should have mentioned that though thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | his advice is legally sound, if you follow it the u of c law school | you will probably wind up in jail." standard disclaimers | -- james donald, in misc.legal 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102646">
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 sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases. what competition did alomar have? sandberg came in a year after ripken, and the same year as boggs, gwynn, and the other magicians. so less attention was given to sandberg. alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre. besides the numbers don't count. national league pitchers are much better pitchers. you're right: thomas, gonzalez, sheffield, and griffey don't even begin to compare with ripken, boggs, and gwynn, so no wonder alomar gets so much attention. sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible. so was his sophomore year. national league pitchers are "much better pitchers"? that certainly explains sheffield's 1993, hm? are you confusing "have era's that are 0.40 lower because they don't face dh's" with "much better"? ted frank | "however teel should have mentioned that though thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | his advice is legally sound, if you follow it the u of c law school | you will probably wind up in jail." standard disclaimers | -- james donald, in misc.legal 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102647">
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 i was watching peter gammons on espn last night, and he's got me a little while talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they'll be facing: mcgriff hitting 50 home runs, sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and glavine winning 25 games. this was, of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's). what really confused me, though, was the mention of *al* players who would do well next year. specifically, roger clemens winning 25 games, and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting 50 home runs. my question is: how in the hell will the rockies/marlins help the al? the last time i looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues. did i miss something? only if you persist in believing that peter gammons is more knowledgable about baseball than the average mailbox. okay, i'm overstating. still, the man actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the nl this year did not pitch in the majors last year. imo, this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the other expansion drafts had, since the talent was diluted over both leagues. in gammons' defense, because the talent drain came from the al as well, some increase will be seen. he also gets credit for mentioning that the 1969 jump in offense was due also to the rules changes after the 1968 season. he's still full of it... kurt bose (as in daisy, not rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu "if you take out all the f--ks, this is an 18 page book." -wally backman, leafing though a copy of mets teammate lenny dykstra's autobiography, _nails_ 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102648">
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 bo jackson 1963 1988 kcr 437 106 16 4 23 28 29 7 .253 67 .243 .288 .455 1989 kcr 517 134 19 5 33 41 27 10 .274 92 .259 .314 .507 1990 kcr 405 110 17 1 27 44 16 9 .286 77 .272 .343 .519 1991 cws 71 16 3 0 3 12 0 1 .240 10 .225 .337 .394 maj 1430 366 55 10 86 125 72 27 .270 246 .256 .316 .489 maj 598 153 23 4 36 52 30 11 this is what jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. his equivalent average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. so let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level of play. i'm not quite sure how these numbers are generated. it appears that in a neutral park bo's hr and slugging tend to drop (he actually loses two home runs). or do they? what is "equivalent average?" one thing, when looking at bo's stats, is that you can see that kc took away some homers. normally, you expect some would-be homers to go for doubles or triples in big parks, or to be caught, and for that matter you expect lots of doubles and triples anyway. but bo, despite his speed, hit very few doubles and not that many triples. so i would expect his value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park. that is good. very good, in fact. but it probably doesn't make the top ten in the league. the 10th best eqa in the al in 1992 was dave winfield's .296; thomas was first at .350. first in the nl was bonds, an incroyable .378; tenth was bip roberts, .297. but .280 is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter; it is about what mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what felix jose had the last two years; just ahead of time raines' five-year average; better than ryan klesko's mles. felix jose has been a .350/.440 player in a fairly neutral park. i would offhand guess the `89-`90 bo at around a .330/.530 player. maybe .330/.550 . not even close. he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting. that is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. i think he was a good, maybe very good hitter. he was imo, something like the 30th best hitter in the majors. i'd put him about there too. note: i hadn't realized the media had hyped him so much. i thought he was always viewed by them as a better football player, and only so-so at baseball. he did only have one 30-hr, 100-rbi season, and kc wasn't note 2: i maybe have harped on this a bit in the past, but there is a mistake being made (by the sdcn's, as they are known, on this group) with respect to players like bo and deion and lofton (and perhaps others). we find, that if you look at a large group of players, their past major and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well. their are some caveats: the younger they are, the less good the prediction; the lower the minor league, the less good (i imagine), the more recent the player has left college ball, etc. now of course, this prediction involves quite a bit of "error." sometimes a player with poor mle's (dave justice, the 1990 ventura) becomes a star. some hitters develop (shane mack, brian downing), some don't (oddibe mcdowell, mickey brantley). this error involves real things: there are real reasons why oddibe didn't hit and shane did. it may (who knows) involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting and so on. but still, you have this big pool of players, and things work pretty well. one of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background of the players. one thing we know about professional baseball players is that all of them (or almost all) have spent a good deal of time playing ball. their backgrounds are similar. what hasn't been established is what happens when you encounter a player with a different background? is there some reason to believe that a bo, or a deion, or a lofton, or a tony gwynn (?), or an ainge, or so on, has such a different background, that the standard model and standard assumptions fit this person slowly? it hasn't been established that you can use mle's with two-sport players. (it hasn't been established that you can't, but then statistics is, after all, an art). i personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely nonsensical statements about bo and deion and lofton. "look at those good-but-not-great minor league numbers," they say. well, what happens if those numbers simply don't mean what they usually mean? it might mean that ken lofton suddenly has a better year in houston than tuscon. it might mean that deion suddenly has a better half-year in atlanta than greenville. then again, it might not. ken and deion might go right back in the tank this year, live up to those poor mle's. but you guys don't know. what's worse, you don't know that you don't. and you don't know that there are other players you won't know about -- injuries and lifting and wheaties again. you seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal. it's not. it's got some error. oh well. bill guilford still thinks "hairy butt is truly ugly" might be right 
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 i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule. any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated. 00ecgillespie "magic" should be rescinded. the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each. let's keep it that way. not any more the rules don't say that. so that's a pretty dumb argument. david m. nieporent | "only one thing wrong with theory... niepornt@phoenix. | is stupid! is stupidest theory i ever heard!" princeton.edu | --------------------- baltimore orioles 93 | who's the dangerous cult -- the bds or the batf? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102656">
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 %i say buy out henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries. next %season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing. that goes for any bitching %ball player. stay in school. you have a lot to learn. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102660">
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 i wonder if ojeda will sue anyone - because his career may be over. not due to the accident -- he just got a (really) bad haircut. now, if you meant due to his floating fastball, well... mark atchison, a.k.a. <atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu>; graduate student in the computer science dept, the ohio state university (not an ohio state university) any plagiarisms seen above are not my own... 
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 rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (john h. rickert) said: (and i thought mota didn't really start pinch-hitting for a living until after 1973) depends on what you mean by "for a living". 1974 was the year he led the league in pinch-hit at bats with 50, but he'd been getting a lot of ph abs earlier than that, and was never a full-time player. 20-35 ph abs early in his career, 15-20 a year just before going to the dodgers, and 30-50 in the peak years. we're talking about a guy with a 20-year career as an outfielder, a .300+ career batting average, and 1130 or so career hits. david m. tate | (i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as: | and opens; only something in me understands e e (can | the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose's) dy) cummings | nobody, not even tim raines, has such soft hands 
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 sutcliffe gives up 3 hrs (gonzales 1, palmer 2) and mills gives up 1 hr (gonzales) to lose 7-4. sutcliffe texas 7 10 0 lefferts 1-0 baltimore 4 9 0 sutcliffe 0-1 jody hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com data general corporation, linthicum, md 
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 i have posted the logos of the nl east teams to alt.binaries.pictures.misc hopefully, i'll finish the series up next week with the nl west. darren reiniger reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca centre for marine geology, dalhousie university, halifax, n.s., canada | people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves | | where it came from in the first place. | 
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 i thought i'd post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting. sorry this is after opening day. i certify that these were completed before the first pitch. :-) al east 1. new york yankees - the most (only?) improved team in this division 2. toronto blue jays - stewart and morris? no way. 3. milwaukee brewers - they always seem to do better than i expect 4. baltimore orioles - pitching, but devareaux, anderson, and hoiles will drop 5. cleveland indians - still don't seem to know what they are doing 6. detroit tigers - all key players but fryman are another year past peak 7. boston red sox - any team with clemens and viola might be beter than 7th al west - this division was the toughest for me to pick. whoever of the top 4 gets pitching should win it. 1. minnesota twins - young pitchers seem to have best chance for success 2. texas rangers - i don't know why i have them here. jose canseco? 3. chicago white sox - frank thomas but no pitching. 4. oakland a's - larussa is the best manager and would keep any team close 5. seattle mariners - i like pinella, but don't see much here 6. kansas city royals - will score no runs 7. california angels - will win no games nl east 1. montreal expos - good all around, plus no wallach! 2. st. louis cardinals - (jeffries + whiten) >> (jose + clark), no galarraga 3. pittsburgh pirates - youngsters will take up more slack than expected 4. new york mets - some good players, still not a "team" 5. philadelphia phillies - they don't impress me 6. florida marlins - they know what they're doing 7. chicago cubs - they don't know what they're doing nl west - the 2 best teams in baseball are in this division. 1. atlanta braves - awesome starters, but offense could be a concern 2. cincinnati reds - would not surprise me if they won it all 3. houston astros - any team that signs uribe won't contend. closer to 4 than 2 4. san diego padres - plantier could be the sheffield of 1993 5. los angeles dodgers - better pitching than the giants 6. san francisco giants - because the rockies just stink 7. colorado rockies - will become the seattle mariners of the nl. nlcs montreal d. atlanta (braves fans, yes i'm probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment.) alcs new york d. minnesota world series new york d. montreal - hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp: barry bonds, or maybe mcgriff nl cy young: jose rijo al mvp: frank thomas will deserve it (again), but fielder might win it al cy young: roger clemens (at least will deserve it (again)) david kenney kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102668">
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 mss@netcom.com (mark singer) said: we know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played aaa ball. yes. but this is *irrelevant*. you're talking about averages, when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on. i might as well say "we know that very, very few people are more than 7 feet tall, so chances are that manute bol is really only 6 foot 4." no. maybe i need to improve my writing skills. lopez, who is very ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22 (having not played at aaa level) that it is probably not a good idea to rush him into the braves lineup in 1993. why isn't lopez likely to hit that well? he hit that well last year (after adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an absolute scale) than olson or berryhill did. by a lot. as for rushing... if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and i don't believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste lopez's 22-year old good season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent season? the sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to lopez was hitting .588 over 17 ab when he was cut from spring training. what does he have to do to earn a chance? maybe not a full time job, but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth? gee. i don't know. 17 abs sounds pretty good to me! about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather than start every day at aaa. talk about *me* as a gm... the point was not that 17 ab is a significant sample, but rather that he hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him down "until he gets warmed up". ok. most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 most players are *never* ready for the bigs. what does this have to do with javy lopez? most players benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at aaa. see above. most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs. those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year. but i could apply the same reasoning to frank thomas or barry bonds. most players aren't that good, so they probably won't be that good this year now. the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out and demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of a soap bubble. not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans. not superstars, not stars, not even good players. maybe average, if we're being charitable. the braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops. ummm. justice is a very fine hitter. pendleton might have another big year in his bat, but he might also spend the season in hamstring hell. gant is a big question mark. the bream/hunter platoon is decent (not excellent) and has rotten obp or slg (depending on who's in). blauser is a very valuable bat... for a shortstop. the center field platoon will probably hit .300. however good lopez' bat *might* be (given the above) it won't be so much better than what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability. wanna bet? the difference between lopez's bat and olson/berryhill could be 20 or 30 runs over the course of the season. given a choice between a player with experience and a player who can play, i'll take the latter every time. the kid *will* improve playing at aaa, just like keith mitchell did? i am just so surprised i have to spell all of this out. my goodness. do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential? that was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they really don't understand how good lopez is, or overvalue experience, or some combination of the two. i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization. are they idiots who have built this ballclub? [well-argued but inflammatory reply deleted.] david m. tate | (i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as: | and opens; only something in me understands e e (can | the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose's) dy) cummings | nobody, not even tim raines, has such soft hands 
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 mss@netcom.com (mark singer) said: well, perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there. but they do have others worth playing, at least in *their* opinion. catcher is their weakest position, with the possible exception of second base. they have a chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem spot with a well-above-average offensive player *and* acclimate a highly promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team, and they want to play *olson* and *berryhill* instead?! i disagree, in that i don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than leadership is. i don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers may be much better than others at it, but i really don't see any way that we could ever know who they are. nichols's law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very sorry. new. don't know nichols' law. "a catcher's defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his recent offensive level of performance." thus, mickey tettleton goes (in the media) from being a no-hit defensive whiz to a slugging thumb-finger in two short years. the rule doesn't apply to perceived "superstars", who get the gold glove offensive transfer effect instead. greg olson is probably considered to be a good defensive catcher precisely because he can't hit. don't believe in catchers' era. but i am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers. aren't they the same thing? in other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial. either that or just stupidity. i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta, no? of course. is it fair to the young players? no. does it make organizational sense? i think it does. well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them for their decisions. i mean, please don't tell me how to run my business. especially when i'm being successful. one could make the same sort of argument in other cases. pete rose, in pursuing ty cobb's record, was a huge gate attraction (and national media magnet). the reds made a lot of money off that; they also wasted the prime of eric davis. that may be "good business", but that doesn't mean i don't loathe them for it. david m. tate | (i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as: | and opens; only something in me understands e e (can | the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose's) dy) cummings | nobody, not even tim raines, has such soft hands 
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 mlb standings and scores for tuesday, april 6th, 1993 (including yesterday's games) national west won lost pct. gb last 10 streak home road atlanta braves 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 00-00 01-00 cincinnati reds 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 01-00 00-00 san diego padres 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 san francisco giants 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 colorado rockies 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-00 00-01 houston astros 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-01 00-00 los angeles dodgers 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-00 00-01 national east florida marlins 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 01-00 00-00 new york mets 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 01-00 00-00 philadelphia phillies 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 00-00 01-00 pittsburgh pirates 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 st. louis cardinals 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 chicago cubs 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-01 00-00 montreal expos 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-00 00-01 american west won lost pct. gb last 10 streak home road oakland athletics 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 01-00 00-00 texas rangers 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 00-00 01-00 california angels 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 chicago white sox 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 minnesota twins 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 seattle mariners 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 kansas city royals 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-01 00-00 american east boston red sox 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 00-00 01-00 new york yankees 01 00 1.000 -- 1-0 won 1 00-00 01-00 milwaukee brewers 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 toronto blue jays 00 00 .000 0.5 0-0 --- 00-00 00-00 baltimore orioles 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-01 00-00 cleveland indians 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-01 00-00 detroit tigers 00 01 .000 1.0 0-1 lost 1 00-00 00-01 yesterday's scores national league american league montreal 1 new york 9 cincinnati 2 cleveland 1 atlanta 1 texas 7 chicago 0 baltimore 4 los angeles 3 boston 3 florida 6 kansas city 1 philadelphia 3 detroit 4 houston 1 oakland 9 colorado 0 california idle new york 3 chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle st. louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san franciscoidle toronto idle joseph hernandez | rams | | /.\ ******* _|_|_ / | lakers jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu | kings | |__ | | dodgers _|_|_ | | raiders jtcent@soda.berkeley.edu | angels |____||_|_| ******* | | |___| clippers 
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 while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all green a's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise. jeffrey popovich jpopovich@guvax.georgetown.edu 
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 i'm looking for the address to join the cleveland sports mailing list. if anyone knows it, i would be greatful if they could email a copy of it to me. if you are a member, just mail me one of the list's letters. i could probably figure it out from there. thanks! mm mm fffff michael j. fath m m m m f dept of microbiology and molecular genetics m m m fff harvard medical school m m f boston, ma 02115 fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu 
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 whenever a person is put on the 15-day, 30-day or 60-day, the person is on the list longer than the specificed time i've seen a person on the 15-day for maybe 4 months last year, i don't remember what... i just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications. i believe we are down to two: the 15-day and the 60-day. (i don't remember a 30-day, but rather a 21-day. anyways, it's gone now.) the period length is a minimum, not a maximum. you can keep a guy on the 15-day for as long as you want, if he's still certified as injured. the player must be periodically re-evaluated to determine if he's still injured (thus you cannot park a player on the dl who maybe is out of options and you do not wish to expose to waivers). if you get someone qualified for the 60-day that reduces the frequency of re-evaluations. there is no longer, i believe, any limit to the number of players you can place on the dl. when there was, you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between the lists. --king "sparky" banaian |"no taxes: no new taxes, kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu |no old taxes, we are taxed dept. of economics, pitzer college |enough." -- rep. alan keyes latest 1993 gdp forecast: 2.4% | (please run, alan!) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102680">
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 since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions, i've decided to add my own fuel to the fire: they might seem a bit normal, but there are a few (albeit, small) surprises. al manager of the year-buck showalter what makes you think buck will still be in new york at year's end with george back? :-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "next time you go over my head, i'll have yours on a platter." -- cmdr. benjamin sisko, 1993 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102681">
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 while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all green a's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise. no kidding...just ask the white sox... too bad, really... -john neuharth neuharth@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102685">
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 mss@netcom.com (mark singer) said: we know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played aaa ball. yes. but this is *irrelevant*. you're talking about averages, when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on. do you really have *that* much information on him? really? why isn't lopez likely to hit that well? he hit that well last year (after adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an absolute scale) than olson or berryhill did. by a lot. i don't know. you tell me. what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle's *in their rookie season*? we're talking about 1993, you know. as for rushing... if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and i don't believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste lopez's 22-year old good season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent season? the sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to if that were your purpose, maybe. offerman spent 1992 getting acclimated, if you will. the dodgers as a team paid a big price that season. perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road. do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for a pennant? lopez was hitting .588 over 17 ab when he was cut from spring training. what does he have to do to earn a chance? maybe not a full time job, but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth? the point was not that 17 ab is a significant sample, but rather that he hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him down "until he gets warmed up". for a stat-head, i'm amazed that you put any credence in spring training. did you notice who he got those 10 (!) hits off of, or are you going to tell me that it doesn't make a difference? the kid *will* improve playing at aaa, just like keith mitchell did? wait a minute. i missed something here. first, forget keith mitchell. are you saying that a kid who moves from aa to aaa and then does not improve would have been better off making a direct leap to the majors? if a player does well at aa and then does not improve at aaa, isn't that a sign that maybe he doesn't belong in the bigs? now, keith mitchell. as i recall (no stat books handy - surprise!) he jumped from aa to atlanta in 1991. he did so well that he was returned to the minors, where he didn't do very well at all. now his career is in jeopardy. so how does he fit in with your point. good mle's in aa. moved him right to the big club. now he's one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball. that was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they really don't understand how good lopez is, or overvalue experience, or some combination of the two. i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization. well, i've cast my lot. certainly you may understand better how good lopez is. and i may overvalue experience. but neither one of us runs a baseball team. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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 national league west cincinnati ---- houston 5.0 atlanta 8.0 argh! here is where you are obviously dead wrong. not since the yankees of the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and years to come) braves. i don't think that the all-star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison. the 1929-31 yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. in 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only 7, 7 and 3 games out). even great teams can lose - that's why they play the season. (on the other hand... i'm still picking the braves to go all the way) um, surely you didn't intend to compare the '93 reds with the 29 philidelphia a's. the yankees were finishing 2nd to a team that was as good as the 26-28 yankees, while the yankees had aged some from their peak years. ruth and gehrig couldn't play every position simultaneously. imo, given the various ages of the braves and reds this season, that the braves will be closer to their peak, while the reds have slightly passed their peak. also, if you're going to compare braves and yankees, a more appropriate comparison to the '93 braves might be the '23 yankees. after falling short two years in a row in exciting world series, both teams won/will win the series this year, despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team. (casey stengel/ dave winfield???) eric roush fierkelab@ bchm.biochem.duke.edu "i am a marxist, of the groucho sort" grafitti, paris, 1968 tanstaafl! (although the internet comes close.) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102689">
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 my god, hope we don't have to put up with this kind of junk all season! the n.y.yankees, are now one game closer to the a.l.east pennant. they clobbered cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by key, and two homeruns by tartabull(first m.l.baseball to go out this season), and a three how many home runs by tartabull? just 1, right, you must be thinking of dean palmer or juan gonzalez (both of texas) who each had 2 homers. run homer by nokes. for all of you who didn't pick boggs in your pools, tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many more i don't know how many to follow, but he was 1 for 4. go yanks., mattingly for g.glove, and mvp, and abbot for cy young. spare us, please! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102691">
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 your speculation (and others) that lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans is nothing more than speculation, no matter how well founded. your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better than lopez is also no more than speculation. it *does* make a difference whether the speculation is well-founded or not. obviously, the braves believe they can win with the catching they have, and i agree. if they change their minds, they'll call up lopez. though this is a good point. the one speculation is "safer", because it can be reversed. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102692">
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 the regular season of the 1992-93 davis tabletop baseball league has just come to an end. to help us with next year's league, i would appreciate it if you would take a couple of minutes and vote for our league mvp and cy winners. these awards, and players' standings in them, will inflate their salaries for next year's league. please vote for 5 in each category, in order. for example... 1. barry bonds 2. frank thomas 3. biff pocoroba 4. shooty babitt 5. "lips" lundy. please do not vote for pitchers in mvp voting for this league. each team in the league gets one candidate for mvp, and one for cy. defensive position is listed where applicable, along with an abbreviation of their performance there (e=excellent, v=very good, a=average, p=poor, b=very poor) thanks... please reply by april 10. for the record - the season was 144 games long. thanks for your help. mvp candidates name g ab h 2b 3b hr r rbi bb k sb cs ibb ba/obp/slg def griffey 124 338 99 27 0 16 44 64 39 50 0 0 16 293/362/515 8-p emartinez 139 562 176 55 3 14 85 87 44 77 14 5 6 313/359/496 5-a sandberg 137 559 163 35 6 20 100 102 64 67 4 1 2 292/360/483 4-v ventura 144 562 161 32 0 9 83 59 80 61 0 1 3 286/374/391 5-e mcgriff 148 533 150 25 1 33 89 98 102 132 0 3 20 281/398/518 3-p mcgwire 138 487 134 31 1 34 108 104 128 100 0 3 38 275/425/552 3-e ralomar 127 515 159 23 8 5 85 34 70 67 54 11 1 309/389/414 4-p dykstra 144 582 157 27 1 3 94 60 65 67 89 20 3 270/339/335 8-a butler 137 534 158 13 13 1 82 50 83 69 13 19 0 296/386/375 8-b deer 119 425 103 26 1 33 66 75 44 141 1 3 2 242/311/541 9-v bonds 145 465 143 39 4 33 128 101 187 62 23 5 68 308/502/622 7-e hrbek 129 423 112 21 0 12 62 52 80 77 1 0 2 265/380/400 3-p jgonzalez 135 543 121 17 1 38 59 85 28 146 0 0 2 223/259/468 8-b some players missed time due to injuries, others were sat down at the end to avoid the possibility of injury. there are better players than those on this list, but each team gets one and only one candidate. some players played more than 144 games due to being traded to teams with more games left in the same time span. now, on to the pitchers... name era g w l s ip h bb k hr gs cg sho wp dmartinez 3.01 30 15 8 0 209.1 173 76 124 12 30 2 0 2 dibble 0.80 37 0 2 25 33.2 21 8 46 1 0 0 0 0 rijo 3.40 26 13 7 0 177.1 175 56 133 12 26 5 1 5 mussina 2.92 29 15 7 0 206.2 167 46 119 15 29 3 1 2 benes 3.24 28 14 9 0 194.1 172 53 127 13 28 4 1 1 khill 2.93 27 16 7 0 196.2 144 64 166 20 26 8 3 1 smoltz 3.62 28 11 11 0 186.1 177 66 158 9 28 6 1 7 cone 3.46 28 14 7 0 197.2 152 103 193 10 28 7 1 5 drabek 2.79 29 13 10 0 206.2 166 55 131 16 29 4 0 2 tewksbury 3.28 25 12 8 0 172.2 168 36 64 8 25 4 2 1 clemens 2.94 31 16 11 0 223.1 198 71 178 13 31 17! 2 1 tomlin 2.48 28 12 5 0 196.0 172 42 97 8 27 1 0 2 farr 0.81 38 4 1 17 55.1 28 25 38 1 0 0 0 0 there you have it. curt schilling threw a perfect game during the year, and ken hill threw a no-hitter. rob dibble had pitched 32 scoreless innings to start the year, only to choke in the last two games to cost the perot's giant sucking sounds a playoff spot. if you want stats of more players, they are available by request. please take the time to reply if you can. thanks. * gary huckabay * kevin kerr: the al feldstein of the mid-90's! * * "a living argument for * if there's anything we love more than a huge * * existence of parallel * .sig, it's someone quoting 100 lines to add * * universes." * 3 or 4 new ones. and consecutive posts, too. * (o o) /----------------------------ooo--(_)--ooo------------------------------------\ | david zavatson |mein schatz, es ist soweit. unsere liebe ist vorbei.| 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102694">
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 even less publicized than this, however, was that the $300,000 didn't come from the padres, but from an un-named source, and that the money didn't go to the blue jays. in toronto, the money was diverted into a london bank account owned by a shadowy character named vincent i should be so lucky: the account number must have been rejected! :-) oh, come on. everybody on the net has heard about "plausible deniability". you're not fooling anybody. soon after that, gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research, as she controlled both the acker-cook pitch-alike contest and the binaca blast research institute. the prime minister smiled. i hope not. to think that i would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney _really_ ruins my day. note how quick vince was to make the inference that my post claimed that mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news. this sure looks like guilty knowledge to me... realizing the taterific importance of this work, john palmer and i concluded that we might be able to pool some resources. i.e., the $300 grand. who will be the stars this year? can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg's record start to last year? the early money has to be on "tom tom" bolton, who contributed that clutch grandslam in his first appearance. but i expect lots of strong contenders this year, many of them right here in san diego. 
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 i've noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict the marlines to finish ahead of the cubs....how? first base: grace vs destrade...could destrade be the second coming of cecil fielder? i doubt it. if destrade performs to the height of expectations, then even, otherwise, edge to cubs second base: sandberg vs barberie...no contest. sandberg will be back may 1. edge to cubs...a big edge. shortstop: vizcaino vs weiss...vizcaino is excellent defensively, but is an automatic out at bat. weiss isn't much better with the stick. even. third base: dave magadan vs buechelle...magadan has a higher obp and is a better hitter. buechelle has more power and is better defensively (i think) edge to catcher: santiago vs wilkins...wilkins is ok, but santiago is better. edge to left field: conine vs maldonado...wow! 4 for 4 yesterday...i know conine has potential. i watched him play at omaha the last couple years. until he actually proves himself, i give maldonado the edge, however, like at 1b, this is position where florida might be even or better *if* the player there has a huge year. center: scott pose vs wilson/may...edge to may, even if wilson. hopefully the cubs will use may and save wilson for pinch running and the like. may isn't ken griffey jr, but he will hit .275 with 15 homers if he plays full time. right: felix vs sosa...felix jose has occasional power and a bad obp. so does sosa, but sosa also has speed and a good glove. edge to cubs starters: aquino? armstrong? hammond? a lot of fifth starters here. the cubs won't remind anyone of the brave staff, but morgan-castillo-guzman-hibbard is average to ok...better than the marline. edge to cubs middle relief: even. the cubs have some decent middlemen, and so do the marlins. carpenter anf klink or decent, but so are assenmacher and mcelroy. closer: a healthy harvey is a big edge to the marlins. meyers is decent, but no harvey. of course, the cubs may have a few more games to save. look for 30 saves, 5 blown from meyers, and 25 saves, 3 blown (with a better era) for harvey. edge florida. overall, an edge to chicago. neither of these teams will threaten to win anything, of course. msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu go cubs!!! "one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - geddy lee 
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 i have a bet with my buddy on when the dodgers moved from ny to la. does anyone know what year they moved? the dodgers' first year in la was 1958. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102698">
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 i thought i'd post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting. sorry this is after opening day. i certify that these were completed before the first pitch. :-) nl west - the 2 best teams in baseball are in this division. 1. atlanta braves - awesome starters, but offense could be a concern 2. cincinnati reds - would not surprise me if they won it all 3. houston astros -any team that signs uribe won't contend. closer to 4 than 2 4. san diego padres - plantier could be the sheffield of 1993 5. los angeles dodgers - better pitching than the giants 6. san francisco giants - because the rockies just stink 7. colorado rockies - will become the seattle mariners of the nl. nlcs montreal d. atlanta (braves fans, yes i'm probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment.) alcs new york d. minnesota world series new york d. montreal - hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp: barry bonds, or maybe mcgriff i guarantee that if bonds wins the mvp the giants will finish higher than 6th. randy palermo luigi@csd.sgi.com fax: (415)961-6502 silicon graphics computer systems, 2011 n. shoreline blvd mt. view, ca 94039 "play an accordion, go to jail. that's the law" 
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 am i the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly? yet another reason why they won't win the nl west! ;) eric roush fierkelab@ bchm.biochem.duke.edu "i am a marxist, of the groucho sort" grafitti, paris, 1968 tanstaafl! (although the internet comes close.) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102701">
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 speaking of the marlins winning the opener: based on lifetime percentage of games won, who has the second best in baseball history (soon to be the best record again)? if i had to guess i would be forced to say the yankees. on the other the blue jays might be up there too. hmmmmm.... blue jays? no way hell, but the yankees probably do. remember, the yankees had the best record of any team in the 80's, and probably take the 20's through 60's as well. 
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 the n.y.yankees, are now one game closer to the a.l.east pennant. clobbered cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by key, and two homeruns by tartabull(first m.l.baseball to go out this season), and a run homer by nokes. for all of you who didn't pick boggs in your pools, tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many to follow). the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians. the yankees only need to win 95 more games to get the go yanks., mattingly for g.glove, and mvp, and abbot for cy young. ---> jason. jason, i am going to a yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium. i am so but cleveland is a very bad team who lost severalrs. they were an up and coming team, now they are just a sad excuse for a better average. abbot will not win the cy.!!!!!! melido perez will. as bold a prediction as they come., well herot be in last place by the end of the season. mike lurie speaks, and the world listens. 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102705" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 how many runs will be scored in denver? i don't know. but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in mile high stadium during the last few years of the bears/zephyrs tenure in the american association. here's the total runs scored per game in zephyrs games, all league games and the ratio. i found the same ratios for hr. year rpg lea ratio hrpg lea ratio 1992 10.22 9.10 1.12 1.65 1.58 1.04 1991 9.53 8.87 1.07 1.41 1.26 1.12 1990 10.71 8.72 1.23 1.49 1.24 1.20 1989 9.07 8.34 1.09 1.27 1.11 1.14 1988 9.90 8.37 1.18 1.29 1.08 1.19 1987 12.55 10.70 1.17 2.39 1.92 1.24 1986 9.45 9.33 1.01 1.35 1.38 .98 1985 9.50 8.54 1.11 1.53 1.34 1.14 1984 9.99 9.10 1.10 1.55 1.59 .97 1983 10.60 9.99 1.06 2.03 1.74 1.17 1982 11.29 10.35 1.09 2.24 1.91 1.17 1981 10.29 9.25 1.11 1.43 1.49 .96 1980 10.59 9.43 1.12 1.63 1.46 1.12 1446/13-->1.11 1444/13-->1.11 it seems pretty clear that denver will have a large effect on runs scored (i'll stick with my prediction from last year that it'll be one of the top 3 in the nl this year) and a fairly large effect on homeruns - though apparently not as large as atlanta, wrigley, cincinnati and san diego. still it ought to be a pretty decent home run park. john rickert rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102709">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102709" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> i'm going to be in cleveland thursday, april 15 to sunday, april 18. |> does anybody know if the tribe will be in town on those dates, and |> if so, who're they playing and if tickets are available? the tribe will be in town from april 16 to the 19th. there are always tickets available! (though they are playing toronto, and many toronto fans make the trip to cleveland as it is easier to get tickets in cleveland than in toronto. either way, i seriously doubt they will sell out until the end of the season.) doug bank private systems division dougb@ecs.comm.mot.com motorola communications sector dougb@nwu.edu schaumburg, illinois dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 708-576-8207 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102712">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102712" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 any more news on steve's status since he lost the starting job would be appreciated 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102713">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102713" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 most of this discussion has been between mark singer and david tate, with valentine weighing in on the same side as dave at various times. my opinion, fwiw, to all: mark, age doesn't matter; ability does. i would rather have the untried rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven himself to be average at best. i don't care if he is 15; if he plays better than what i have, i want him out there. sandy alomar had decent minor league numbers, grossly inflated by the pcl in general and las vegas in particular; he should have been projected as an average major league hitter (which is good for a catcher, i'll admit). santiago's numbers would probably come out the same as sandy's, but i don't have the league data from the mid-80s to check it out. that being said, i agree with sending lopez to richmond, at least to start the season. as the box below shows, he has *one* minor league season in which he hit well. he has two in which he hit very, very poorly. i want to see that the 92 lopez is real. olson and berryhill are not complete mediocrities; for catchers, especially nl catchers, they are essentially average hitters, with equivalent averages around .220. if he had hit well at prior levels, i would say he belongs on the braves; but there is a reasonable chance that lopez last year was just as much a fluke as alomar in 90 or santiago in 87. one year at any level, at any age, doesn't satisfy my standards of evidence. javier lopez 1971 1990 bur 428 101 10 1 9 5 0 1 .179 33 .236 .245 .327 1991 dur 389 84 8 1 9 14 7 2 .175 29 .216 .243 .311 1992 grn 445 135 22 2 14 22 7 2 .271 71 .303 .336 .456 1992 atl 16 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 .306 3 .375 .375 .500 maj 16 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 .306 3 .375 .375 .500 min 1262 320 40 4 32 41 14 5 .213 133 .254 .277 .368 tot 1278 326 42 4 32 41 14 5 .214 136 .255 .278 .369 maj 650 244 81 0 0 0 0 0 min 630 160 20 2 16 20 7 2 tot 630 161 21 2 16 20 7 2 on a similar note, i don't understand why more people are not supportive of neon deion. granted, i thought his behavior with mccarver last year was completely bush. last year was the first time he ever got 300 ab in one place, so his lines are hard to read. but he has a combined 720 ops in minor league play; with his speed is more valuable than the ops alone indicates; and at a still young age (24), had a monster year with an 868 ops. he has a total, major and minor, eqa of .249; above major league average, and above average for cf (which was about .240 in the nl last year). he has shown at least the potential of going into the .290s, which would make him one of the 15 best hitters in the league. he has two full seasons before reaching his "prime" season of 27. he should be considered as a legitimate prospect, and not as a simple side-show attraction. deion sanders 1968 1988 fla 21 8 2 0 0 1 1 0 .325 4 .381 .409 .476 1988 int 20 3 1 0 0 1 1 1 .086 0 .150 .190 .200 1989 eas 123 35 1 2 2 9 15 4 .257 19 .285 .333 .374 1989 nyy 47 11 1 0 2 3 1 0 .222 6 .234 .280 .383 1989 int 263 70 11 4 6 18 15 6 .246 37 .266 .313 .407 1990 nyy 133 21 2 2 3 13 8 2 .161 9 .158 .233 .271 1990 int 85 26 7 1 1 14 8 1 .312 18 .306 .404 .447 1991 atl 110 20 2 1 4 12 10 3 .201 12 .182 .262 .327 1991 ric 129 30 5 2 4 7 11 3 .230 17 .233 .272 .395 1992 atl 306 92 10 12 11 22 24 9 .295 60 .301 .348 .520 maj 596 144 15 15 20 50 43 14 .245 87 .242 .300 .418 min 641 172 27 9 13 50 51 15 .252 96 .268 .321 .399 tot 1237 316 42 24 33 100 94 29 .249 182 .255 .311 .408 maj 600 145 15 15 20 50 43 14 min 603 162 25 8 12 47 48 14 tot 601 154 20 12 16 49 46 14 clay d. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102719">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102719" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 as for rushing... if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and i don't believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste lopez's 22-year old good season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent season? the sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing? i'm serious; i tend to agree with david that bringing the player up sooner is better, but i'd like to look at players for whom this theory didn't work, if there are any. i'd prefer players within the last 10 years or so, because then i can look up their minor league stats. (it's important to distinguish between players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers would have projected, as opposed to players who were hyped and failed, but actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers). let's kick it off with an example of a player who was "rushed", although there doesn't seem to have been any damage to his career. jay bell was given 135 pas in the major leagues at age 21, and performed well below what you would expect from his aaa numbers the same season. he got 236 pas the next year at age 22, and still underperformed. however, the next year, at age 24, his performance improved, and he won the everyday shortstop job, and has been there ever since. it's really hard for me to see where he would have been better off staying in the minor league (where he was performed quite well in aaa) during this time, rather than being "rushed"; cleveland might have been better off, i suppose, because they might have been less likely to give up on him. yes, if you bring a player up early, he's likely going to struggle. but does that delay the time at which he stops struggling, and starts performing up to expectations? sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102720">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102720" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 otis nixion lined a single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter. cubs win 1-0 on a 1 hitter by jose guzman. that's might be what it takes to beat the braves this year. look at smoltz's pitching line: 6 hits, 2 walks, 1 er, 7 so and a loss. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102721">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102721" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing? i tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues. the braves organization is a fertile ground to test this hypothesis, as they had little talent on their roster for some time. steve avery, for example, was rushed to the majors, and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign. his subsequent pitching has not been affected by his 5+ era during his rookie year. bill james pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so and then rebound. bob horner was also rushed to the majors (out of arizona state directly) had good numbers immediately. i am not certain of the ages of people like pete smith, craig mcmurty, and derek lilliquist. the braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up that they might have been rushed. lilliquist and smith struggled, but it didn't hurt ps and dl may have been overhyped. i seem to recall cm pitching well initially, though i don't have stats handy. douglas bone internet: bone@luciano.stanford.edu standard disclaimers bitnet: bone%luciano.stanford.edu@stanford apply. uucp: ..ucbvax!luciano!sierra.stanford.edu!bone 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102722">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102722" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 stay in school. you have a lot to learn. learn what? i know that 3 million dollars is a lot of money. i know rickey henderson doesn't have a career out of baseball. i know if he didn't have baseball, he wouldn't be making near the money he is now. i just don't understand how some athlete, who only plays a sport for a living for millions of dollars, say he is not being paid enough. if nobody will sign him for his asking price, he will be the one hurting. the a's will still win without him. remeber, many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability. nothing. they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens, and they are complaining of not enough pay. i don't have a problem with them making millions. my problem is when the say they aren't being paid enough, when they already get 3 million--also, their numbers get worse. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102724">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102724" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 mss@netcom.com (mark singer) said: most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs. those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year. now. the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out this is the crux of the argument (to me at least). both the sdcn and the non-sdcn camps seem to agree on the fact that a catcher's defense is basically nonmeasurable at present. you can talk about how important calling a game is, or framing the pitches, or blocking balls in the dirt. but there is little or no way to tell exactly how various catcher's rank in "defense". looking at lopez specifically; is there any reason to suspect that he is a bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the braves (or the media) has labeled him a bad defensive catcher? as far as i can tell he doesn't have any particular problem in his mechanics (such as sasser). he might be a little rough around the edges in blocking the ball, or framing the pitch to get a good call but all he needs to clear that up is playing and practice time. i can't see how repetitions at aaa are any better then reps in the majors! all we're left with is the calling the game aspect. olsen and berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping the pitchering staff. but this is a reputation that is given to almost all veteran catchers. how is catching at aaa going to help lopez learn the major league pitching staff? the only way any catcher is going to learn tom glavine's pitches is to catch tom glavine. similarly, i wouldn't be supprised if the pitcher's claimed to prefer pitching to olsen over pitching to lopez because they are used to pitching to olsen. but given time they will say they are comfortable with lopez. now, since lopez can't learn how to handle the major league pitcher's while he's in aaa and since he doesn't have any glaring problem in his mechanics, what is he going to learn in aaa that he can't learn just as well while in the majors? dave bonar mebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102727">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102727" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> i totally agree with each point you made. jose viscaino looked |> like a single a hitter up there. who swings on 3-1 count with maddux |> pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball |> all |> day. i also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing. |> watching |> the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about |> what |> the cubs should be doing than lefebre does. harry said it best when he |> stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til |> sandberg returns! i tell you, steve stone is like a prophet. he must be making a ton in the boradcoast booth because i can't understand why he's not actually back in the game itself. the other day he called sosa's homerun against the sox and claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the score was 8-3 in the 5th. so yesterday he notices that sosa's ahead in the count against maddux and says, "this is a fastball situation and sosa will be looking for it. but this is also the spot where maddux throws the straight change." sure enough. sosa gets ahead on it and pops it up to the infield. stoney for cubs manager! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102731">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102731" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i am fortunate enough to have tickets for an orioles-red sox game in baltimore on saturday, july 31st. i haven't been to the new park, and i was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips or anything helpful about the place so that i can enjoy every moment spent for instance, what time do the gates open? do we see the orioles take bp? when will the red sox take bp? anything you can tell me would be appreciated. thank you in advance. please respond to my e-mail address. i know it's still three-and-a-half months away, but i'm psyched! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102733">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102733" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 has david wells landed with a team yet? i'd think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto! they did. for $950k. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102735">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102735" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 you'd think that an expansion team would be filled with young'ns, not guys like murphy, galaragga, b smith... it depends. if you can get your old veterans cheap, and if they can perform at a higher level than your young talent can *now*, why not the talent develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer. if the veterans are gone in a year or two -- that should be just about right. maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in denver. :) open question -- which was more important to the expansion clubs, the expansion draft or the regular draft. (they've had one of each, i think.) dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102736">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102736" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 morgan and guzman will have era's 1 run higher than last year, and the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard. castillo won't be good (i think he's a stud pitcher) this season so far, morgan and guzman helped to lead the cubs at top in era, even better than the rotation at atlanta. cubs era at 0.056 while braves at 0.059. we know it is early in the season, we cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the short triumph while it is still there. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball102860">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball102860" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i was watching the dodgers/marlins game yesterday and a couple of things impressed me. first is that the way the sun was shining in miami, it had a summer atmosphere in early spring for baseball. in comparison wrigley field in early april still has a wintry look to it with the dead ivy and bundled up fans. the second and most important was the fans. i like these guys/gals! i will admit i am a football fan first but i still enjoy baseball. it was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to the miami dolphins. the way they were cheering, i thought it was the afc playoffs. of course opening day may have a lot to do with it, but i really got feeling of electricity that i think is lacking with a lot of baseball fans in other cities. baseball certainly needs a charge and i hope these two expansion teams bring back some excitement. we'll find out friday how denver bronco fans respond. phillies are 2-0! (i better say it now before my opportunity passes by) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104073">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104073" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary. very scary! don't get me wrong, im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless. the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their chances. of course, don't forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104260">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104260" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 after reading my local paper today, i found out that the phillies started the 1964 season at 10-2. i am not as old as 1964, but i've heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season. they were ahead of the cardinals by 15 games that season in mid-august. they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division. 15!!! games ahead and lost it.... i hope this season is much different. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104321">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104321" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being 50% offense, 50% defense. a run scored is just as important as a run this certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding? i'd really like to know. btw, sherri, thanks for the da data i find it fascinating. of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented. just as a penny saved is a penny earned. enough with the cliches. my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential, they won't need much offensive support. i realize this is a big if. this staff leaves the '92 bosox in the dust. there is no legitimate comparison. two cy young winners, and three other pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first or second starter. it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound, the other teams score less runs. the team that scores the most runs wins. this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage (providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs). a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves. they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting. on the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players, i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers. they would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their opponent. the name of the games is to win. even ray knight knows that you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard. all i'm trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers like the braves have, the offense doesn't need to be as strong. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104323">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104323" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 count me interested in a cardinal's mailing list. if anyone finds one or starts one, please let me know. dick detweiler rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104327">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104327" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary. very scary! don't get me wrong, im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless. the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their chances. of course, don't forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game? first game, first at bat. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104328">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104328" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 didn't bob horner go straight from arizona state univ. to the atlanta braves? i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan. a month? well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone, overweight, and having no work ethic. but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs. len reed holos software, inc. voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16 domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa uucp: lbr@holos0.uucp 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104331">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104331" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire-to-wire. through games of 4/14/93 the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" braves. go astros!!!!! byron t. lee a native texan stuck in utah 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104334">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104334" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 pitchers who are doing well are more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al, so it seems to me that the al, not the nl, promotes pitchers' duels. bob vesterman. on what basis do you make this statement? q sean are you serious? pitchers are pinch-hit for in the nl. they are not in the nl. if a pitcher is cranking in the al, he will stay in the game. if he is cranking in the nl, he may not - especially if it's a pitchers' duel, and his team needs an extra run. bob vesterman. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104335">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104335" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 says: what i think is hotdogish about his ab's is the way he leans out over the plate to watch outside pitches etc. this not done to get a better look at the pitch, but to make it seem,"this ball is so far out i need to lean just to get near it so you better call it a ball". this is my "unbiased" opinion of what i see. your mileage will vary....... rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time. a lot of batters lean in when pitches come. rickey's crouch tends to exaggerate that, i think. "a great player to watch if you forget who he is" - "unbiased"... hmmm... bob vesterman. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104337">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104337" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 rogers is the "one-batter lefty" in the bullpen. dusty has also said he trusts rogers to get the final out in a ballgame where beck is unavailable, so you might see a couple of saves for kevin. then again, if any of the regular rotation falters, rogers is a possible candidate to start, though this would appear less likely now that dave burba did well in an emergency start. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104338">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104338" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball. for anyone who didn't see sunday's game, with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform, a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers. later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter. what the hell is he thinking. earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt, but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench. gilkey hit over 300 last year, what does he have to do to start, the guy would be starting on most every team in the league. furthermore, in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home, i can't take this anymore brian, a very distressed cardinal fan. brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104339">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104339" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 last year brein taylor was in a ball, probably at tampa in the florida state league. i believe he began this year in aa which is albany. hopefully george won't rush him and he'll be allowed to progress at his own rate to aaa and then to the bronx. this guy is the real thing. jonathan alboum 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104342">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104342" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 and now, the not so pleasant surprises: 2)tartabull. the book on tartabull was, keep him healthy and he'll produce. well, he hasn't done too much so far. sure. he's hit a few homers, but those were all solo shots, and he hasn't gotten any of the "big" rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you. then again, he had a slow start last year (once he got off the dl, that is) and turned into a one-man wrecking crew see you in the series! let's see... april 15th... less than 30 at bats.... and you claim that he hasn't done too much so far! cut this guy some slack. danny will produce this year. it's scary to think just how much he'll produce if he were to stay healthy all year. the yanks have a lot going for them this year: good starting rotation, good bullpen, good defense and a good lineup. also, i like buck showalter. frank howard on 1st is also a good move. everything sounds good so far. if the yanks stay healthy, they have a good chance at winning the pennant. this is the most fun i've had watching the yanks since "78! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104344">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104344" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
<context>
 why are the red sox in first place? eight games into the season, they already have two wins each from clemens and viola. clemens starts again tonight, on three days rest. what's up? are the sox going with a four-man rotation? is this why hesketh was used in relief last night? p.s. i was wrong. the sox have already scored 18 runs in two games this week. they should reach 25 without trouble. i still think it's a fluke. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104345">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104345" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 sbp002@acad.drake.edu said: every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being 50% offense, 50% defense. a run scored is just as important as a run of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented. just as a penny saved is a penny earned. enough with the cliches. it's not a cliche, and (unlike your comments below) it's not a tautology. it needn't have been true. if every pitcher in baseball were essentially the same in quality (i.e. if the variance of pitching ability were much smaller than the variance of batting ability), then scoring runs would be much more important than preventing them, simply because the *ability* to actively prevent runs would be much weaker. my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential, they won't need much offensive support. if that's your point, you should have said so. what you in fact said was "pitching and defense win championships", and later "pitching is the essence of baseball". neither of which says what you are now claiming was "your point", and neither of which is true. it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound, the other teams score less runs. the team that scores the most runs wins. and you accuse sherri of mouthing cliches!? this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage (providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs). a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves. it's not clear to me at all that this is true. in high-scoring games, the team with the better offense wins a high percentage of the time. in low- scoring games, the split is essentially 50/50 regardless of team ability. they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting. on the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players, i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers. i thought you said "pitching and defense win championships" and "pitching is the essence of baseball". david m. tate (dtate+@pitt.edu) | greetings, sir, with bat not quick member iie, orsa, tims, sabr | hands not soft, eye not discerning | and in denver they call you a slugger? "the big catullus" galarraga | and compare you to my own mattingly!? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104348">
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 i missed the original post, but aren't the expos rushing alomost their entire team this year? i am from montreal, and am a fan, but geez, the expos rank 27th in salary (only the rockies trail) and someone at the average age would probably be in first year university! corelmark! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104349">
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 today (4/14) cubs activated p mike harkey from dl, whom did they move to make room for harkey? also, are delino deshields & john wetteland of the expos on the dl? thanks for anyone who can give me more info! cal poly, pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march 26 or something like that. wetteland comes off the dl on april 23rd, and will be evaluated on the 24th. he is throwing well, and without pain on the side. deshields is not on the dl. he suffered from the chicken pox and lost (this is the official total) 12 pounds. he will be back, hopefully, next week. walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow... corelmark! from montreal. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104353">
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 also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg, catcher/linguist/espion of ww2. any references (or anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated. moe berg, my hero! we were just talking about him on monday at the yankee game. well, there's a book about him that's just been reissued: i think the title is _moe berg: athlete, scholar, spy_, by tom sewell and two other people whose names i forget. sewell wrote the chapter on berg in danny peary's book _cult baseball players_; this is a good source for some of the more famous anecdotes about berg. also excellent is the section on him in bill gilbert's book _they also served_, about baseball during wwii. i'm told berg's spy activities are mentioned in the recent book _heisenberg's war_. his sister also "wrote" a book about moe that she self-published. the title is something like _my brother, morris berg_. it's mainly some of her memories and page after page of xerox copies of pictures and letters that moe had saved. copies are kinda hard to find, but the smith baseball library has one for those in minneapolis... we have one here, at berg's alma mater (class of 1923). it's kind of a sour thing; she disapproved of the job that sewell et al had done. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104356">
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 honestly, ozzie smith and robin yount don't belong there. they're both shortstops that just hung around for a long time. big deal. are you for real? how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have? if a guy hung around and hit 30 homers a year for 15 years, wouldn't he be a given for the hall? is defense not just as important? and if robin yount couldn't hit, why would he have stuck around long enough to get 3,000 hits? are you saying 3,000 hits is a fluke? 3,000 hits is no big deal? let's be a little more selective, huh? stop handing out these honors liberally. save them for the guys who really deserve it. face it, if isn't done, there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore. when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates, the absurdity is apparent. gee, can these guys even compare to i agree, garvey and morris don't deserve it. the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan? well, based on your argument, nolan ryan doesn't deserve the hall of fame. he is just a right hander who stuck around for a long time and could throw hard. very few 20 game winning seasons, lots of losing seasons, lots of walks. no cy young awards. how does nolan ryan compare to a guy like steve carlton who dominated 5 or 6 major league seasons, won 7 divisons, 2 world series, and won half of his teams games in 1972? he doesn't compare. not even close. kirby puckett hasn't done it long enough for me. give me 5 more seasons like he's been having, then i'll think about it. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104357">
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 does any one out there listen to wfan? for those of you who do not know what i am talking about, it is an all sports radio staion in new york. on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast. in particular, i want to know how len berman and mike lupica's show is. i go to school in virginia so i can't listen when there are on during the day. just the fan is an okay sports radio station, but doesn't come close to the ultimate in sports radio, 610 wip in philadelphia. the signal might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in new york feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining 24 hours a day. wip took two of your best sports jockeys too, jody macdonald and steve fredericks. 610 wip is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 am till midnight, check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia. if i'm not mistaken, wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation? p.s the only nice thing about the fan is that they talk sports all night. hopefully 610 will begin to do that somewhat soon 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104358">
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 it was my impression watching the mets & rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt, too, but not as far up as the letters. it would be nice if this were the case. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104360">
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 last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said: cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck oh yeah, he aqlso added that harry is a drunken idiot who shoulda stayed in st louis where his heart is, but also added that fair weathered fans all like to be together. i guess this is the reason harry is now a cub fan, bud man. note he never really left st, louis. jim walker go sox, cubs suck! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104368">
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 i seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here recently. (that's what happens when you have to split a heap of disorganized files from one machine among two others.) could some kind soul repost the bibliography, or mail me a copy? also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg, catcher/linguist/espion of ww2. any references (or anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated. i believe si had an in-depth article on moe a while ago. i remember that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive moe. my si subscription expired this past february, the second of two years that i received same. therefore my guess is that the article appeared sometime in 1991-92. can anyone else be more definitive as to a date of the si article ? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104369">
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 after reading my local paper today, i found out that the phillies started the 1964 season at 10-2. i am not as old as 1964, but i've heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season. they were ahead of the cardinals by 15 games that season in mid-august. they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division. 15!!! games ahead and lost it.... i hope this season is much different. strictly from memory, i think the phillies were something like ten games up with 12 to go, lost 10 in a row, and 11 of last 12 to lose to the cardinals. seems impossible, but thats how i remember it. i also felt at the time that johnny callison of the phillies lost the mvp as a by-product of their swoon. p.s. in 1964, a single team out of 8 won the pennant; no divisions. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104370">
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 |> hi all, |> does anyone know who were the 4 pitchers for the 1961 orioles |> that were referred to as the "kiddy corp" because they were so young? steve barber 22 18-12 chuck estrada 23 15-9 jack fisher 22 10-13 milt pappas 22 13-9 this list brings to mind possible the worst trade since babe for nono nannette, i.e., milt pappas for frank robinson, i think in 1965 ?. robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in 1966 and may have beaten out yaz in '67 but was injured on a slide into second when he collided with the mighty al weis (chisox). 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104371">
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 do you mean just like reds' fans? have you listened to wlw anytime they open up the lines for fans to call? talk about clueless idiots! the broadcasters are just as bad too. the new york talk shows are just awful in this regard. people are constantly calling wfan and wabc with (stuff like) "i was thinking, why don't the yankees trade kaminicki and silvestri to seattle for ken griffey jr and randy johnson, that would really help the team" or "do you think the yankees can get roger clemens?". the show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys, but it's still annoying. the best one was at the end of one show, a caller started out with "i was thinking, why don't the yankees trade for..." and then the host hung up on him. i cheered! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104375">
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 |> uh, right. you also forgot that you can't get an rbi (barring a hr) with |> nobody on base. what fraction of all runs come on solo hr? actually, for the padres this year so far it's 23%. they are 5th in the league in hrs, and all have been solo shots. pythagorean projection puts them at .360 winning percentage or 58-104. need some pitching help, fast! good news, though, is that hurst has been throwing curveballs w/o any pain. threw 80 pitches yesterday. should be back in a couple of weeks. maybe we can trade him to the yankees for militello. dave demers demers@cs.ucsd.edu computer science & engineering 0114 demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet uc san diego ...!ucsd!cs!demers la jolla, ca 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, fax: (619) 534-7029 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104382">
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 why are the red sox in first place? eight games into the season, they already have two wins each from clemens and viola. clemens starts again tonight, on three days rest. what's up? are the sox going with a four-man rotation? is this why hesketh was used in relief last night? clemens is going on his normal four days' rest (last pitched saturday). hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon, his first outing since an aborted 1-1/3 inning start 6 days before, so he should be plenty rested to go in his expected turn this saturday, as the 5th starter. not that this is a good thing, of course. i'd like to see a well-managed four-man rotation with this team... glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton, ma g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104389">
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 in the bruce springsteen video "glory days", from the born in the usa album, they show two quick shots of a baseball game on television in the bar bruce and the e-street band are playing. name the teams? which stadium? who is the pitcher? what two batters go down swinging? also at the end of the video bruce is throwing at a wooden "strike zone" and his last pitch a young boy lines a base hit into center. as bruce and the kid walk of the field the kid asks him how he did today. bruce mentions the team he was playing and that a certain player got him in the bottom of the ninth. name the player and the team! sandiego and graig nettles if anyone gets these i'll be impressed. anthony m. jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf/atd - fl1 p.o. box 3000 boulder, co 80307 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104391">
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 there is a book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally called _jewish baseball stars_, and baseball mavin peter bjarkman has compiled a pretty definitive list of jewish ballplayers in the bigs. i wish i hadn't sold my copy of jewish baseball stars. it's a short shelf (i.e., the one on top of the toilet tank) special. the writing in that books is so astonishingly awful -- every sportswriting cliche taken to the nth degree and then mangled -- that it's funny. rusinow is the author, i think. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104393">
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 for that matter, how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish? the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams (?), who had a phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the 80s. howard cosell is one who comes to mind. gee, d'ya think len berman's jewish? how about steve stone of wgn who does the cubs? we already got him under pitchers, overrated, jewish. or tony korhiezer and shirly povich (maury's dad) of the washington post? probably. is shirley p still alive? just wondering. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104394">
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 | >one phrase for you....&%#! you!!!! | >thanks. | perhaps it's time to start rec.sport.baseball.graffiti, where the kiddies | can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in | peace. | sherri nichols | snichols@adobe.com well sherri, i'd agree with you except that most 'kiddies' have more sense than to spew their obscenities in front of a group of adults.. i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools, they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers, but i'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that i don't even edit the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash... and thanks to all you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files, that's really nice... i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the .sig. don't get me wrong, i know all the words you do, (and i've even made up some of my own!) or i wouldn't be able to edit them out ;^) but this just doesn't seem to be the place, a public forum, to spew foul language, sorry.. thanks to all you people that keep in mind, there might be some decent, young people, interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup.. they enjoy your articles. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104395">
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 } [stuff about upated inning scores deleted.] at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game is over are not necessary, thanks to mr. hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day. am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? just wondering. i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet, especially for those in the east coast who can't get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts. this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. also, many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs's or some pay news services. by the way, mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions. if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list and use that. remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. other than that, everything is done through private e-mail. currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. and the list grows by an average of 35 people a day. if people on usenet really don't want to see the postings i do to rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. if the response is overwhelming against the posts, i won't do it anymore. thanks for your time. joseph hernandez joseph hernandez | rams | | /.\ ******* _|_|_ / | lakers jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu | kings | |__ | | dodgers _|_|_ | | raiders jtcent@soda.berkeley.edu | angels |____||_|_| ******* | | |___| clippers 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104396">
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 well, officially it's the braves. at least up until they started winning it was. are they still, officially? if so, why? and how did they receive this label? probably because everyone (that is, everyone who has cable) can watch every braves game. they are the only team that has all of its games broadcast nationwide. and if you don't like your local team, or you don't have a local team, the braves can kind of become your local team because you can watch them every day. --i'm outta here like vladimir! | "what's this? this is ice. this is what happens to water when it gets | | too cold. this? this is kent. this is what happens to people when | | they get too sexually frustrated." | | -val kilmer, "real genius" | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104398">
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 hello all, i'd like to learn how to keep score when i watch ball games using official scoring methods. where can i get scoresheets and instructions on how to use them? i appreciate it, ========================== | hofstadter's law: it always takes michael wilson | longer than you think, even if you idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu | take into account hofstadter's law. ========================== | -- douglas hofstadter 
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 and then cjkuo@symantec.com (jimmy kuo) quoth: does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose a 3 game suspension on "let's see... i expect to be back june 15th. how many games do we play before june 15th? take me off the dl 3 games before june 15th." it would be a lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some number of games after he came back. well, either way, the reds have to play a man down for 3 days. jason lee jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu giants e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0 the most beautiful equation in mathematics. magic for all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: number: "it might have been." john greenleaf whittier 153 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104402">
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 well, my guess is because america loves underdogs. every year, no matter the cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as possible) win anything. over the years, as the losing has mounted, america has fallen in love with these perennial losers. the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide. the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else. (including the ws champs) it must be that eternal hope. actually i admired the spirit of the fan at the cubs opener several years ago who held up a sign that said "wait till next year". eric smith | "he threatened me! if it was a president of the erics@netcom.com | united states you'd investigate! ... what's the erics@infoserv.com | difference? i'm a comedian of the united states!" ci$: 70262,3610 | - jerry seinfeld 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104406">
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 smith, ozzie .742 .717 .697 .672 .664 0.701 the wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever. still very good, but i don't like the way his numbers have declined every year. in a few years may be a defensive liability. that's rich... ozzie smith a defensive liability... why? do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until he reaches his seventy-third birthday, or something? why is it such a strange concept that a forty-one-year-old ozzie smith might be a defensive liability in 1996? ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104407">
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 $ mlb -m pit phi monday, 5/10 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) tuesday, 5/11 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) wednesday, 5/12 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) friday, 6/25 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) saturday, 6/26 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:05 pm) sunday, 6/27 philadelphia at pittsburg (11:35 am) friday, 7/30 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) saturday, 7/31 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:05 pm) sunday, 8/ 1 pittsburg at philadelphia (11:35 am) monday, 9/27 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) tuesday, 9/28 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) wednesday, 9/29 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) thursday, 9/30 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) are these times correct?? they seem as if they are 2 hrs ahead of the usual tiems for these two teams. the origin of that first message was boise, which is on central time. p. tierney whoops! i meant mountain time. p. tierney 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104409">
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 } >} [stuff about upated inning scores deleted.] } >at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game } >is over are not necessary, thanks to mr. hernandez who posts daily } >standings and results here every day. } am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? just wondering. it was meant entirely, 100%, as a compliment. } i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet, especially } for those in the east coast who can't get final scores for west coast games } in their newspapers or late tv newscasts. this is helpful to fans in other } countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. also, } many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only } available through bbs's or some pay news services. by the way, mine is free } of charge and has no copyright restrictions. i was not trying to criticize your service at all. in fact, i was trying to encourage others to use it. i don't personally use it, but i'm sure others do, and that was my point in posting--there is no need for individuals to duplicate, in an ad hoc fashion, what you have already organized. } >if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list } >and use that. } remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the } rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. other than that, everything is done through } private e-mail. currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that } branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. and the list } grows by an average of 35 people a day. having one person, such as yourself, who does it, is a great idea. having 100 do it is not. that's all. keep up the good work, joseph. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104410">
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 well, officially it's the braves. at least up until they started winning it was. are they still, officially? if so, why? and how did they receive this label? there is no team, repeat, no team, that is america's team. this is a diverse country with 26 mlb teams (+2 up north) and there is no one team that is america's. who would the other teams belong to? and how does it happen? well, teams receive this monicker through success (cowboys), national exposure (cubs), or both (braves). it spreas aby successful advertising campaigns. harry caray, ted turner, amd other dupe people into thinking that their representative teams are "hip" so that people will watch them on tv and buy their products. arrogant local fans adapt the monicker and think that "their" team is the one that america idolize it comes down to dollars and egos. p. tierney 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104411">
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 / hpcc01:rec.sport.baseball / pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu / 12:23 pm apr 14, 1993 / what's up with kevin rogers of san francisco?? i thought he was slated to be the fifth starter, but he's only gotten a few relief appearences. are they going with four starters for now, or is someone else the fifth? p. tierney giant's have a five man rotation of john burkett, trevor wilson, bill swift, jeff brantley, and bud black/dave burba. black has been put on the 15 day disables and dave burba will take his starts. 
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 in the new book about the mets it talks about how they like to rape little girls before games. sick jerks!!! is this the book by bob klapisch (spelling?), "the worst team money can buy"? if it is, i wouldn't give the book, or anything in it any value whatsoever. klapisch wrote the book to make money (obviously) and sensational literature is going to sell a lot better than what he usually writes for the papers. i'm not calling him a liar, but if there was any proof that a met player had raped a little girl before a game (let alone doing it on a regular basis) they would be in jail, not for those people who do not know what the press is like in new york, it is probably more cut-throat than in just about any other part of the u.s. keith hernandez said it very well on espn a couple of days ago, they would much rather mention a clubhouse fight, than a two-run homer in the ninth to win a game. i do not read klapisch's news columns regularly, but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb up a news story, even if there isn't one there. now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago, i almost totally blame bonilla. no matter what a member of the press does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a personally, i always thought that a beat writer that always follows a club around should report the news, but not be looking to degrade a team. i don't know whether to blame klapisch, because that may be the only way to keep a job in new 
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 has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season? i'd heard he wasn't with the yankees any more. what happened to him? doug dolven doug dolven warped@cs.montana.edu gdd7548@trex.oscs.montana.edu mel hall signed with a japanese team. /mike@columbia.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104418">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104418" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i'd love to see a shea stadium gif. "behind the bag!" - vin scully 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104419">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104419" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 if people on usenet really don't want to see the postings i do to rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. if the response is overwhelming against the posts, i won't do it anymore. thanks for your time. joseph hernandez mr. hernandez Ñ- i apologize for the misunderstanding. i explained that i know that it is essential for some fans to get scores here, for they cannot get them elsewhere. i have no problem with what you do, posting scores after the games have been completed. however, like i said earlier, i don't think it is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games, like some others have come to practice. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104420">
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 i've recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions. my sources are total baseball, james' historical abstract, the ballplayers (biography), word of mouth, and my own (biased) opinions... feel free to comment, suggest, flame (whatever)...but i tried to be as objective as possible, using statistical data not inlcuded for time/convience's sake. (i judged on rel. ba, adj ops, total average, fielding range/runs, total player rating (total baseball), stolen bases (for curiosity's sake), tpr/150 g, and years played/mvp. 1) mike schmidt 2) ed matthews one "t" in "eddie mathews"! 3) george brett 4) wade boggs 5) ron santo 6) brooks robinson 7) frank baker 8) darrell evans 9) pie traynor 10) ray dandridge how can brooks be # 6? i think he would at least be ahead of ron santo. because a small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near making up for the large difference in hitting. their average seasons, using their combined average 656 (ab + bb) per 162 games: years ab h r 2b 3b hr rbi tb bb avg obp slg ops santo 14.10 577 160 81 26 5 24 94 268 79 .277 .366 .464 .830 robinson 17.55 607 162 70 27 4 15 77 243 49 .267 .325 .401 .726 fielding, we have, per 162 games at third, years p a dp e pct santo 13.15 149 348 30 24 .954 robinson 17.72 152 350 35 15 .971 even if robinson's extra 3 putouts, 2 assists, and 5 dps are taken to mean he was responsible for 10 more outs in the field, that doesn't make up for the extra 28 outs he made at the plate, not to mention the fewer total bases. the difference of .104 in ops should be decreased by about .025 to account for wrigley, but a .079 difference is still considerable. the thorn & palmer ratings are adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo 123 284 -14 137 41.7 robinson 105 52 -5 151 19.8 (26.3) usual disclaimers about t&p's fr apply, but they really shouldn't be way off the mark in this comparison. at least it's better than fielding percentage: carney lansford has a .966 , 10th best all-time, but -225 fr, dead last of all time. also, since this total rating compares players to league average instead of replacement level, robinson should be awarded an extra 6.5 or so for playing 653 more games. he had a great career, but i would prefer santo's plus 4 years of a replacement level 3bman. but i would knock traynor off the list and replace him by stan hack. that's a similar story, hack's far better hitting outweighs traynor's superior fielding. graig nettles and buddy bell would also be better choices (imho of course, though some recent net discussion supports this point of view.) 7) andre dawson shouldn't that be right field? | bob holt | | rjh@allegra.att.com | 
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 one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%. i'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or even 40-10. give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and even if you don't let roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (no offense, gordon). i wouldn't give baserunning that much value. i meant to comment on this at the time. there's just no way baserunning could be that important - if it was, runs created wouldn't be nearly as accurate as it is. runs created is usually about 90-95% accurate on a team level, and there's a lot more than baserunning that has to account for the remaining percent. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104423">
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 dead wrong! last time i checked, jim fregosi was still managing the phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in baseball at 8-1 look, asshole, i got him confused with somebody else. i didn't flame you, and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy. what _is_ your problem? hite's post wasn't a flame. it was a correction of *your* error. that last was me, steve novak. i've since read the entire original posting by hite. mr. fischer was actually restrained. let mr. hite hope he never makes some similar, tiny mistake. | steve novak | |"ban the bomb!" "ban the pope!!"| steven@advtech.uswest.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104424">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104424" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season? i'd heard he wasn't with the yankees any more. what happened to him? doug dolven mel is alive and well and playing in japan. (the yanks let him go because he was asking for too much money, and because they thought that they were going to get barry bonds, making hall obsolete. oopsie! well, at least they got o'neill to replace the mel-man). --i'm outta here like vladimir! | (scene from "real genius" where val kilmer is trying to pick up a | | gorgeous blonde) | | val: so, if there's anything i can do for you, or, more | | to the point, to you, you just let me know. | | blonde: can you hammer a six-inch spike through a board | | with your penis? | | val: not right now, no. | | blonde: a girl's gotta have her standards (she walks away) | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104425">
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 as of today, april 17, jack morris has lost his first three starts. however, the jays are doing well without him and injured dave stuart. this is a credit to the rest of the pitching staff. has jack lost a bit of his edge? what is the worst start jack morris has had? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104426">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104426" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 davis and strawberry attributed their turn arounds to reggie smith, the dodger batting coach who flew in from florida three days ago and gave them a pep talk and some instruction. davis was 4-5 yesterday and had a couple more hits today. strawberry had two hits yesterday and i believe he had two more today, with two home runs. foolish me. and here i thought it had something to do with the fact that they were hitting against wakefield, who had no "kncukle" to his ball that day, and otto, who has no stuff. i wonder if reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the lineup, who also suddenly came alive those two games. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104428">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104428" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 doug roberts - ken hill for nl mvp!! let's go 'spos 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104433">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104433" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 were they palying football or baseball in detroit on saturday? from looking at the school, some people may think it was football. between two games this week, the tigers scored 40 runs!!!! the offense can carry them, i hope the pitching will hold out. i was at camden yards yesterday, everytime i looked up the score was getting higher. what a great site it was to see the tigers kicking butt while enjoying a game at camden yards. go tigers and go tony phillips!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104434">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104434" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone have the scoop on scot erickson? how long is he going to be out for? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104435">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104435" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend. the '69 mets and '89 orioles are prime examples, not the cubs. sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent" over 162 games. i would amend your definition to: underdog: a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated dave! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104437">
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 dave kingman is jewish comarow@eisner.decus.org 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104438">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104438" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 in a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (david steinman) says: the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend. the '69 mets and '89 orioles are prime examples, not the cubs. sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent" over 162 games. i would amend your definition to: underdog: a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated dave! ok, the mets and o's are good examples, but what about the '90 reds? do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a's? i know people who didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the series. we proved them wrong, though, didn't we? as for this year, ignore their record now. they've had a rocky start, and that has nothing to do with colorado. they shall rise again. the hunt for a reds' october continues. (with all due respect to wlw) bye. michelson- - - - -1993 spring olympics champions road rally, 5-legged race, rope pull, snarf, penny wars, banner, spirit cheer. the michelson menace rides again! (don't you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in a residence hall?) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104440">
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 how does one read the betting spreads for baseball? they tend to be something like 8-9 which means it must not be runs! david rex wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- university of colorado at boulder 
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 shaky) innings giving up just one run. then game the dreaded relief. three picthers combined to give up 3 runs (one each i believe) in the 7th inning be taken lightly. going into today's game, the had the league's leading geez, can i type or what? david rex wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- university of colorado at boulder 
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 b.s. about darkness deleted. oh, lighten up. what depresses me is that they might actually finish last, which i believe hasn't happened since their second season in nope the royals are the only team in the majors that have not finished in last place. ^^^^ of course this doesn't include the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at finishing last also. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104446">
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 in a previous article, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (edward [ted] fischer) says: jack morris' starts have been like his playoff starts. he has an era of 17.18 in his 3 starts. what does luck have to do with a 17.18 era? he was lucky to get 21 wins last year, but he had an era of 4.04 with a team that scored a lot of runs. i would be happy if he could still pitch with an era of 4.04, but he seems to be suffering from a total callapse. bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers. they are closer to the chasm of mediocrity. the smallest push and they completely lose their grip. but good ones can collapse somewhat, then come back the next year. burleigh grimes went from 20+ wins and an era of 3 or so in '24 to 13-19 and an era around 4 in '25. he pitched well for several more years. carlton won 13 and lost 20 the year after his 27-10 record. (source: bill james historical baseball abstract.) and let's not forget john tudor, who started 1-5 and finished 21-6 in 1985. he had a pretty bad era when you take busch stadium into account at the start of the season. he gave up early runs in his '92 games and would get stronger as the game went on, thus giving up few runs in the last going. he stays in the game and gets the win. how else would he have pitched so many innings? yup. he used to dig himself a hole, then get it together and stick in until the run support eventually came through. this year he just hasn't gotten it together. if i recall, he had a 4.50 era in the 1st half and a 3.50 era in the 2nd half of last year. hmmm, 21 runs in 11 innings. suppose he starts 30 more games, and winds up w/200 innings pitched. if he allows 4 runs a game in the next 189 innings, he'll have a 4.75 era or so at the end of the year. (i think i have his totals right.) this is going to be hard to come back from. jack may be finished. it is time to retire or be released, if he does not return to his form from last year. his $5 million contract is an awful lot to eat! my 1st hunch is that morris is very gutsy, and that he may be pitching through an injury and not telling anyone. my 2nd guess is that he will be banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after a few more starts. (perhaps when stewart comes off the dl? or will danny cox, who went 3 or 4 scoreless innings against the tribe today, start for morris? he looks like a really good one. gaston is scrambling to find starters, i'd imagine. luckily, the jays have a very good offense.) i don't think they would dare release him before the end of the year. he'll just be replaced by stewart or cox. doug fowler: dxf12@po.cwru.edu : me, age 4 & now: "mommys and daddys & other ever wonder if, after casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it? : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104447">
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 kevin mitchell's sacrifice fly in the eighth off brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez to give the reds a 2-3 come-from-behind victory over new york. hernandez ran for pinch-hitter cecil espy, who got the inning started with a solid single to right, moved to second on "bob" kelly's infield sneaker down the third-base line, and to third on jeff branson's well-placed bunt--a rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless reds offense. cincinnati trailed 2-0 after starter tim pugh blinked in the fifth. he had only given up one hit in the first four innings, a fourth-inning lead-off double by vince coleman. coleman was left stranded at third by bobby bonilla after joe orselak popped to short. orselak was pinch-hitting for eddie murray who argued plate umpire kellogg's inside strike by "drawing the line" (really, he should know better than that). murray, and later manager jeff torborg ended up getting the mets' fifth started with a howard johnson's first-pitch homer. pugh must have been slightly shaken, as he was popped on the next pitch by jeff kent's single, then a ryan thompson liner to left was (surprise) misplayed by mitchell and turned into a rbi triple. catcher hundley's grounder to the drawn-in branson failed to bring thompson in, then the play of the game occured: saberhagen was due up, so reds pitching coach larry rothschild met with the infield to discuss the possibility of a suicide squeeze. they called it perfectly: thompson was hung out to dry after pugh's first-pitch pitch out and the threat ended. (isn't the national league great??) the reds picked up 2 runs in the seventh to knot up the game. after barry larkin's ground out, mitchell, chris sabo, and randy milligan got back-to-back-to-back singles--the third scoring mitchell. reggie sanders then plated sabo with a long fly to center. a double by oliver might have scored runner dan wilson, but third base coach dave bristol threw up the stop sign too late--wilson himself was hung out to dry killing the reds rally. rob dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily. with two outs and a runner on second bonilla came to the plate and all i could think of was the sunday game in late august last year when bonilla's three-run dinger slapped a loss on dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for cinci's season. bonilla ended up walking, and hojo flied out to left to give the reds their first win in a week, and earned dibble his third save in as many opportunities. the win went to steve foster (1-2) who got in what must be an ego-boosting two perfect innings work, striking out three. saberhagen (2-1) got the loss--though i'm a bit surprised he even pitched in the eighth. i'll take it, though. the reds are now 3-9, still the worst team in baseball with the royals victory today. the mets are 6-5. the line: new york mets ab r h k bb lo coleman lf 4 0 1 0 0 0 fernandez ss 4 0 0 1 0 0 murray 1b 1 0 0 0 0 0 orselak ph/rf 3 0 1 0 0 0 bonilla rf/1b 3 0 0 2 1 1 johnson 3b 3 1 1 1 0 2 kent 2b 3 1 1 1 0 0 thompson cf 3 0 1 1 0 0 hundley c 3 0 0 2 0 0 saberhagen p 3 0 0 0 0 0 totals 30 2 5 8 1 3 hr-johnson (off pugh, leading off fifth, 0-0 pitch) 3b-thompson (off pugh, in fifth, 0 out, 1 rbi, picked-off) 2b-coleman (off pugh, in fourth, 0 out, 0 on, stranded at third) rbi-johnson, thompson cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo kelly cf 4 0 1 0 0 0 branson 2b 3 0 1 0 0 0 larkin ss 3 0 0 0 1 0 mitchell lf 3 1 1 0 0 0 dibble p 0 0 0 0 0 0 sabo 3b 4 1 1 1 0 2 milligan 1b 3 0 3 0 0 0 wilson pr/c 0 0 0 0 0 0 sanders rf 2 0 0 0 0 1 oliver c/1b 3 0 1 1 0 1 pugh p 1 0 0 1 0 0 roberts ph 1 0 0 1 0 0 foster p 0 0 0 0 0 0 espy ph 1 0 1 0 0 0 hernandez pr/lf 0 1 0 0 0 0 totals 28 3 9 4 1 5 (*) (*) oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when wilson was run down. 2b oliver (off saberhagen, 2 out, runner on first, stranded) rbi-milligan, sanders, and mitchell sac-branson sf-sanders and mitchell ibb-larkin gdp-larkin new york 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 ---- 2-5-0 cincinnati 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 x ---- 3-9-0 ip r er h k bb new york saberhagen (l 2-1) 8 3 3 9 4 1 pugh 6 2 2 4 4 0 foster (w 1-2) 2 0 0 0 3 0 dibble (s 3) 1 0 0 1 1 1 pb- wilson ejected-murray, torborg umps-kellogg/relliford/runge/demuth attendance 32,435 t- 2:23 coming up: the reds travel to pittsburgh for three then continue on into chicago for three. next game is tuesday at 7:35, expected to pitch are belcher (0-1) vs. tomlin (0-0). 
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 in a previous article, sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (sean sweda) says: i've been saying this for quite some time, but being absent from the net for a while i figured i'd stick my neck out a bit... the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule. (p.s. any ideas what this is?) they will fall easily short of 600 runs, that's for damn sure. i can't believe these media fools picking them to win the division (like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades/aquisitions he's made) would you say the same thing about the dodgers in '65 or '66? true, cone is probably as good as drysdale, and they have no koufax, but still, these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals, with lots of low-scoring games, etc. and they didn't use relievers, whereas jeff montgomery is having a super season for them. that being said, i still picked them 5th or so, but i think a superb pitching team can win if they have enough hitting. there's more of a chance of that, i think, than of a team with tremendous hitting but no pitching. at least, to me. i wonder, though - which one do you people think would do better - a team with johnson, koufax in his prime, seaver, carlton, and young, in no real order, as the starters, with sutter, fingers, and lyle in the bullpen, but with a puny offense (assuming good defense, like mazeroski, maranville, etc.) or a team with poor pitching, but with an offense of cobb, carew, ruth, gehrig, mays, schmidt, wagner, and bench - again,you pick the order. i would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by seasons' end. even the best hitters can succeed only 2/5 of the time in their best years, but a great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts - taking all the players in their prime, they might throw 50 shutouts in a year. and all the offense would have to do is get 1 run across. i wonder if someone with stratomatic or something could plug such all- time teams into a regular season, have it played, and report the results i would love to see that. doug fowler: dxf12@po.cwru.edu : me, age 4 & now: "mommys and daddys & other ever wonder if, after casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it? : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!" 
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 just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year. ... a concerned fan of the bb ddd, i am hoping to produce the first update of the bb ddd this week; please send info about the most significant (longest, most critical, etc.) home run that you have seen yet this season. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104450">
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 well, officially it's the braves. at least up until they started winning it was. are they still, officially? if so, why? and how did they receive this label? unoffically, but without a doubt, america's team is the cubs. why? bradley u> i'm really a jester in disguise! sorry, but i saw a survey somewhere that showed that america's favorite team is the damn yankees. so much for the underdogs being loved. obbaseball trivia: cardinals have taken 3 out of 5 series from the yanks but have a losing record against them (spring training games not counted) --shannon 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104453">
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 to all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three homer games ina career, the answer is johnny mize in his career with the cards and the yanks. he hit three 6 times. i am almost sure about this. in case anyone is wondering, the record for two homer games is held by babe ruth and is 72. mize's record may not last for much longer because of juan gonzalez. he has at least three games with three and maybe 4. i know that he had at least two last year and one as a rookie. i don't have any record books at college for me to check on though. please let me know, okay, if i am wrong. onto the padres. is there anyone out there who follows them?- especial-ly those with access to local news? i don't here anything in los angeles and i can't get mcpaper consistently around here. comment: it looks as though san diego has gotten the better of the two deals that brought bell and plantier to the padres. it has also forced the team to use darrell shermann. of course, plantier could get injured again or he could hit with the power of 91 but with a lower average. bell always could finish with .240 and 15-18 hrs-essentially jerald clark's numbers. leadoff comment: craig shipley?????? i get on base 29% of the time if i'm lucky at leadoff? hell, of the usual starters, use gwynn. he's got 4 steals already. is shipley starting because of an injury to stillwell, though? i haven't seen stillwell's name in any box scores. anyway unless you are going to use shermann at leadoff then use gwynn. he at lesat gets on base and this year is stealing bases. sheffield comment: though the season is early and stats mean nothing. witness phillips batting .500+ currently. but does sheffield have an injury, or anythingelse wrong with him. i just don't hear anything. andy benes: is he pitching like he did in the second half of '91? or is this a flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then? has anyone seen him pitch the two good games? score for today, sunday april 18: padres 10, st louis 6. padres sweep the cardinals as gwynn goes 5 for 5 with a homer. sheffield and tueful also homer in a winning cause. thanks for listening-reading any comments???? kelly keach kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu 
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 the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend. the '69 mets and '89 orioles are prime examples, not the cubs. sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent" over 162 games. well, with players, certainly. however, it is quite possible to win it all with no managerial talent. cf. blue jays, 1992. david shapiro | "people can call it a monkey, but i felt like shapiro-david@yale.edu | i had a piano on my back all winter long.... shapiro@minerva.cis.yale.edu | the piano is off my back. maybe a trombone | will be next." -- stan belinda 
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 anyone have the al individual stats or where i can find them? k--> 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104457">
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 david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year. with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats will bang this summer. already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with fielder, tettleton, and deer i think they can win the division. no pitching! bull! gully, moore, wells, and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games.... yeah, if the tigers can keep scoring 20 runs a game. if i'm reading all this woofing correctly, one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of contention. like yogi says, i'll believe when i believe it. david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104458">
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 } the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year. with } mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats } will bang this summer. already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with } fielder, tettleton, and deer i think they can win the division. no pitching! } bull! gully, moore, wells, and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep } the team into many games. then there is henneman to close it out. watch out } boston, toronto, and baltimore - the motor city kittys are back. nice woofing (or should i say meowing?). and yes, the tiggers are a fun, exciting team that i would pay to see. but last year, they went 75-87. this year, their offense is essentially the same, and their pitching is, at best, essentially the same. so why do you think they will suddenly improve to win the 92 or so games which will be required to win the a.l. east? what has changed that i don't see? remember, a 20-4 win is worth as much in the standings as a 3-2 win... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104459">
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 has jack lost a bit of his edge? what is the worst start jack morris has had? uh, jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above average year in the last 5. again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky. you can count on good tomorrow. lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a bad finish last year :-). (yes, i am enjoying every last run he gives up. who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola?) hey valentine, i don't see boston with any world series rings on their fingers. damn, morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future. therefore, i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing. and don't tell me boston will win this year. they won't even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th. 
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 the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend. the '69 mets and '89 orioles are prime examples, uh, i don't think you can call a team with tom seaver, jerry koosman, and nolan ryan on the pitching staff a team that has "no talent." they did come out of nowhere, but some of the improvement was 
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 in a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (david steinman) says: the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend. the '69 mets and '89 orioles are prime examples, not the cubs. sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent" over 162 games. i would amend your definition to: underdog: a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated dave! ok, the mets and o's are good examples, but what about the '90 reds? do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a's? i know people who didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the series. these people were very silly. any team that gets to the world series can win the world series, and anybody who ever expects a sweep is crazy. if you put the best team in baseball in the series against the worst team in baseball, the worst team would win at least a game most of the time and very well could win the series, though the odds would certainly be against them. 
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 later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter. what the helll is he thinking. if memory serves me well, alicea hit it, and damn near tied the game. torre obviously knows his players better than you do. see y'all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu 
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 hey!!! all you yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of baltimore. you flooded my mailbox with cries of "militello's good, militello's good." where is he??!! i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing. he's not by any chance in columbus now, is he? please don't tell me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the *fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff. as for the o's, it's still early. see y'all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu 
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 "todd karlin" writes i do not read klapisch's news columns regularly, but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb up a news story, even if there isn't one there. now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago, i almost totally blame bonilla. no matter what a member of the press does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a bonilla wasn't threatening anyone. he just wanted to give him the dollar tour. =^) david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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 12) management: big big zero. sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing. i meant argument instead of agreement. also, i think i should add a coouple of ted's positive achievements - smiley trade was good for the pirates. but i think ted could have gotten someone better than neagle. cummings seems to be pretty good. - the cole trade was excellent. but simmons has botched it up now. -this year's draft seems to have gone well for the pirates. but then they lost 2 high picks in the bonds fiasco. oh well, i should give up trying to prove that simmons is not a total 
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 don't you guys think so? i mean, c'mon! what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball. they cause so many problems. just look at lisa olson. remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room? she started crying like a little girl! i just don't think women belong in a man's sport. before you smart guys flame me for this, i know the given example was about football. who cares? it still applies to other male sports. how can we have women umpires? jeez! look at pam postema. just because she's a woman, everybody on the face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to ump. if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires. besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs' bat. or jose oquendo's bat. either way, there are too many complications. Ñaustin jacobs (bob knepper fan club member #12) someone tell me there's a :-) hidden here somewhere... ??? david rex wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- university of colorado at boulder 
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 hey!!! all you yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of baltimore. you flooded my mailbox with cries of "militello's good, militello's good." where is he??!! i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first about as good as mussina's. better than sutcliffe's and mcdonald's he's not by any chance in columbus now, is he? he's in the bullpen. steinbrenner is in charge after all. please don't tell me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the *fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff. he's got the talent to be the 4th starter now, and evetually the ace. he was a higher ranked (and generally better) prospect than arthur rhodes who happens to be, well hey, the oriole's 4th starter. as for the o's, it's still early. as for militello, it's still early. toby elliott 
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 to mr. millitello - listen, sammy, can you explain why buck pitched you in relief yesterday? i figure no-one would know this better than you yourself. jason a. miller "some doctor guy" p.s. tell bam-bam he should've made good on his thread to retire :-) 
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 isn't it funny that a white person calls comeone a "nigger" and gets banned for a year, but a black person calls someone a "faggot" and there is no ted, you're missing a vital point. as roger lustig pointed out in a previous response, the reason why schott was banned from baseball was because she had been known to call and think in a racially biased manner on a constant basis. such thoughts affected her hiring practices. bonilla, on the other hand, was found to have mentioned this one word a single time. if he had been known to go around, criticizing homosexuals, it would be a different story. furthermore, he is merely an athlete. he doesn't have to hire anyone as schott had to do. dave pallone, the former nl umpire who is an admitted homosexual, has decided to assist in a protest before a mets game at shea. he, like you, thinks that bonilla should be suspended from baseball. pallone is hoping for a year's suspension. in my opinion, that's downright ludicrous. as howie rose on wfan said, if you start suspending athletes who have mentioned a derogatory word even a single time under whatever conditions, then you'd probably have enough people remaining to play a three-on-three game. now, honestly, if you truly analyze the differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article, i would think that you'd reconsider your thoughts. "behind the bag!" - vin scully 
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 wasn't ron bloomberg, the former yankee who got the first base hit by a designated hitter, jewish?? i have no idea, nor do i care. however, i'd like to point out that blomberg got the first plate appearance by a designated hitter, and the first walk by a designated hitter. i am not sure, but i do not think that he also got the first hit by a designated hitter. bob vesterman. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104481">
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 says: (which reminds me: do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey?) yup. with onions, of all things. bob vesterman. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104482">
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 lasorda juggled his lineup against the pirates friday night, and from the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes for a while. butler reclaimed leadoff spot, probably for the whole season davis wants to get his speed into play. 4-for-4 last night piazza the kid is doing *everything* well. very well. strawberry the primadonna insists on batting cleanup how do you know this? did lasorda say, before the game, "here's the lineup i'm using. i'm batting strawman fourth because the primadonna insists on batting cleanup"? if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons: 1) publicly humiliating his players; 2) knuckling under to his players wishes. however, i think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda wanted strawberry to bat fourth, and that you hate strawberry. bob vesterman. 
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 prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (phil gunsul) says: i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary , they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers, but i'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that i don't even the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash... and thanks to you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files, that's really nice... i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the .sig. duh, why not just chop out the .sig? bob vesterman. ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents' wallets and mail them to: bob vesterman c/o dept. of mathematics university of notre dame notre dame, indiana 46556 
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 (john franjione) says: also, i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not? yeah. sure. do you own "the bill james players rating book"? bob vesterman. 
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 hey valentine, i don't see boston with any world series rings on their yah. so? damn, morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his he certainly didn't earn his last one. *how* many games did he blow in the world series? all of the ones he started? therefore, i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing. oh, yes. definitely. therefore morris is better than clemens. don't give me that shit. if boston had alomar, olerud, henke, and ward while toronto had rivera, jack clark, jeff reardon, things would have looked a little different last fall. give credit where credit is due. this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick. and don't tell me boston will win this year. they won't even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th. i'm willing to bet they don't finish sixth. i'm also willing to bet they don't finish first. and if you give me 3-2 odds, i'm willing to bet that they finish ahead of the blue jays. 
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 hey!!! all you yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of baltimore. um. how many games have the orioles won? you flooded my mailbox with cries of "militello's good, militello's good." he is, or will be. where is he??!! i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing. he's not by any chance in columbus now, is he? please don't tell me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the *fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff. no, currently there's no room for him in the rotation. key is having a most impressive april. abbott is pitching well. perez is back. wickman has pitched his way into the rotation, and is holding his spot with an outstanding performance his last time out. and kamieniecki isn't doing too poorly himself. if the yankees find themselves in need of a starter, militello will get another chance. until then, he'll have to wait in line. 
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 why did i get sucked into this? don't you guys think so? i mean, c'mon! what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball. they cause so many problems. just assuming you're serious, i guess you'd be surprised to hear that us guys don't think so. i would guess that a tiny fraction of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. i kind of doubt that even you agree with it. i'm not going to go through your points one at a time, because, after all, not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball. i'm only replying to this because you brought up pam postema, the aaa umpire who sued (is suing?) baseball on the grounds of sex discrimination because she wasn't promoted to the majors. jeez! look at pam postema. just because she's a woman, everybody on the face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to ump. if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires. i've never seen her ump a game. i have no first hand experience with her ability as an umpire. but i have seen her on talk shows. and her point seems to be that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most. it seems to me that she is missing the point and if that's how she sees the role of umpires in the game, well i wouldn't promote her the umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners safe or out; hell, joe lundy could do that. their primary function is to maintain order in the game, keep the game moving, and keep the players from trying to kill each other. umpires have to be extremely tough people. that disqualifies most of us, both men and women. and if ms. postema thinks that she deserves to be a major league umpire because of her command of the rulebook, then i think that disqualifies her as well. umpires need to command the game; command of the rulebook is secondary. dave eisen "to succeed in the world, it is not dkeisen@leland.stanford.edu enough to be stupid, you must also sequoia peripherals: (415) 967-5644 be well-mannered." --- voltaire home: (415) 321-5154 
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 |> in article <1993apr17.020347.9554@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com>, |> prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (phil gunsul) says: |> ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your |> parents' wallets and mail them to: |> bob vesterman and send him a shift key too... dave demers demers@cs.ucsd.edu computer science & engineering 0114 demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet uc san diego ...!ucsd!cs!demers la jolla, ca 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, fax: (619) 534-7029 
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 so far simmons looks like a total idiot. whatever you say. i think it's just 12 games into the season myself, so i'm going to wait a bit before calling names. 2) i am sure simmons was ready to say i told you so after otto had an impressive win last week. now otto's latest debacle has restored simmons' reputation. now he looks like he is back in his '92 form when he had the al's highest era among starters. four our sake(not ted's sake), i hope he pitches with a 3.5 era for the rest of the season. yeah, right. i expect that dave otto will be a really bad pitcher, and i have no idea why simmons ever wanted him. on the other hand, i expect him to release otto if he doesn't turn things around pretty fast. (btw, otto's game score for that 0 ip stinker was only 22, which points out a problem with the method since otto's performance was infinitely bad, and excruciatingly prolonged.) 3) tomlin and merced are a bit disappointing. they are still doing decently. but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons, they seem to have actually gotten a little bit worse. i think merced's rookie year was a bit flukey, but aren't you willing to give him some more at bats (and tomlin a few more starts) before acting so gloomy? 4) walk: well, he seems to be on the losing end tonight. but i still think that walk desrved his contract. no he didn't. walk is a time bomb. he has no stuff whatsoever, and when the league finally realizes this, it won't be pretty at all. 8) the rookie batters: well, young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact. other than that, their excellent performance hasn't been too much of a surprise. i think we should thank doughty for that. don't be so fast. doughty is the guy who signed steve buechele, which was a move that threatened to bury kevin young in the minors. meanwhile, i'm not sure whether doughty or simmons signed martin as a six-year free agent before the 1992 season. 9) rookie pitchers: worse than expected, especially cooke. twice through the rotation, and you've given up? yikes. 10) slaught: how come he wasn't given a contract extension last year? now his value has increased immensely. but so has his age, at least in baseball terms. the useful half-life of a 34- year-old injury-prone catcher can't be much longer than a year. 11) lonnie smith!! well, eric davis was signed for a comparable amount. but he wanted to be a dodger, and felt he had something to prove after his disastrous 1992. i don't think there was any chance for the bucs to sign let's see. eric can hit better. he can run better. he can field better. now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis. an injured davis is better than a healthy lonnie smith. he certainly wasn't last year. even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year,he won't be an asset. he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field. hey, that's the "skates smith" package deal. anybody who acquires lonnie for his defense or base-running (particularly at this stage) is a real weirdo. 12) management: big big zero. sauer has yet to make a forceful argument in favor of revenue sharing. he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for a move to tampa bay. if that's the goal of the team ownership, than i don't see why sauer gets a zero for making his boss happy. i don't know what he has or hasn't said about revenue sharing, so i can't comment there. 13) alex cole fiasco. [stuff deleted] ironically, the biggest accomplishment of simmons' tenure was getting alex cole really cheap. too bad. [that he gave him away in the expansion draft.] it's annoying, but since leyland seems to have been pushing for them to retain jeff king, it was probably unavoidable. meanwhile, i think bigger accomplishments of simmons' tenure were getting some value for john smiley, not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch last year, drafting well in 1992, letting the rookies show something in 1993. foley, smith, and candelaria were acquired to be replacement parts, which means that even if fail it hasn't done serious damage to the bucs' future. 14) compensatory draft picks for bonds: forget it. the pirates can rant and rave. they will not get those picks. as of now, the issue is still being appealed. does this mean that the bucs lost the initial arbitration case? i never heard the outcome of this. when will the final verdict be in on now, if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots, nothing else will. i'm not sure who was the idiot in this case, so i don't know who to blame. it might have been doug danforth, after all. in fact, i *seriously* suspect it was doug danforth, who has shown his willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is pointed at his feet. (btw--i've wondered whether my latest posts have been getting off-site, so if somebody known to impersonate e.e. cummings can see this, would he drop me a short note?) 
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 the dodgers have been shopping harris to other teams in their quest for more left-handed pitching. so far, no takers. personally, i think harris is a defensive liability, and he has also led the team in past years for hitting into double plays, or at least been among the leaders. sharperson showed last year that if given a chance to play every day, he can get the job done. if sharpy played just one base every day, say third, he'd also improve defensively. wallach has helped tremendously on defense, as has reed. the improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an effect on the pitching staff. both astacio and martinez were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays. martinez pitched into the ninth in a game that might have seen him lifted in the third in past years. astacio lasted 7 innings the other day under similar circumstances. the dodgers are turning double plays, and keeping more balls in the infield than last year. and piazza has also been great on defense. he has thrown out 10 of 14 batters trying to steal and has at least one pick off at first. wallach, clearly, has contributed to the over all improvement on defense. but his offense is awful and he has cost the dodgers some runs. but i don't think he is as bad as his current average. i suspect he will come out of this slump much as davis and straw seem to have come out of theirs. 
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 |> i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta |> braves did not lead wire-to-wire. through games of 4/14/93 the houston |> astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" braves. and they deserve to be, if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the honor of the nl west. the supposed strongest division in baseball lost 6 of 7 to the east yesterday, with only the astros prevailing. we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula@koufax.cv.hp.com paul andresen hewlett-packard (503)-750-3511 home: 3006 nw mckinley corvallis, or 97330 (503)-752-8424 a sabr member since 1979 
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 1)spike owen. sure, he's hitting like crazy, but the guy *cannot* field to save his life! and they said he was brought in to provide defense? velarde, stankiewicz, and even silvestri are better defensively than owen. remember - it's still early. look for his offense to tail off, and his defense to improve (hopefully). he has that rep because i heard that either last year, or over the last 5 years, or something like that - he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops - behind c.r. and tony (i'm not gonna help this sorry mets team at all) fernandez. i do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far. owen only has one error so far, i believe. that seriously underrepresents the harm he has done in the field. owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches. he will have a fine fielding percentage, like always. the problem is that he doesn't reach anything that isn't hit straight at him! this wouldn't be quite as obvious a problem if he were playing next to kelly gruber or robin ventura. but the third baseman for the yankees is wade boggs (who should have moved across the diamond *last* year)! i've only seen one game, abbott's first start, but there were three balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality defensive players. instead they were charged as hits against abbott. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104501">
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 or second starter. it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound, the other teams score less runs. the team that scores the most runs wins. this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage (providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs). a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves. not clear to me at all. i'd certainly rather have a team who was winning 4-1 games than 2-1 games. in the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the 4-1 game. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104503">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104503" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone know where billy taylor is? richmond or syracuse? he was taken by the jays in the rule v draft, but not kept on the roster. baseball weekly said that he was demoted to syracuse, but a toronto paper indicated that the braves took him back. is there an atlanta fan, or anyone reading this, who knows? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104504">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104504" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 compiled from the last five defensive average reports, here are the career das for the individual players in the reports. stats are courtesy of sherri nichols. players are listed in descending order. third basemen name 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 88-92 mitchell, kevin .690 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.690 gonzales, rene .685 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.685 leius, scott ---- ---- ---- .653 .680 0.672 pendleton, terry .692 .685 .631 .689 .634 0.667 ventura, robin ---- ---- .641 .647 .677 0.657 wallach, tim .728 .674 .600 .630 .665 0.657 gruber, kelly .717 .657 .580 .630 .664 0.650 pagliarulo, mike .631 ---- .575 .744 ---- 0.649 harris, lance ---- ---- .642 .652 ---- 0.648 howell, jack .656 .666 .609 ---- ---- 0.647 williams, matt ---- ---- .633 .653 .656 0.647 caminiti, ken ---- .675 .630 .653 .596 0.642 sabo, chris .751 .626 .616 .613 .575 0.642 gaetti, gary .616 .638 .655 .632 ---- 0.637 buechele, steve .647 .616 .647 .681 .599 0.635 salazar, luis ---- .617 .643 .637 ---- 0.632 pecota, bill ---- ---- ---- .629 ---- 0.629 schmidt, mike .628 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.628 riles, ernie ---- .627 ---- ---- ---- 0.627 boggs, wade .643 .659 .550 .653 .634 0.626 martinez, egdar ---- ---- .621 .645 .599 0.624 molitor, paul .633 .617 ---- ---- ---- 0.624 phillips, tony ---- ---- .623 ---- ---- 0.623 *nl average* .643 .625 .602 .623 .603 0.619 brookens, tom .616 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.616 king, jeff ---- ---- .616 ---- ---- 0.616 seitzer, kevin .654 .583 .593 ---- .635 0.616 *al average* .641 .612 .604 .620 .602 0.615 jacoby, brook .624 .621 .600 ---- .597 0.613 hansen, dave ---- ---- ---- ---- .611 0.611 law, vance .635 .576 ---- ---- ---- 0.611 magadan, dave ---- ---- ---- ---- .609 0.609 jefferies, greg ---- ---- ---- ---- .606 0.606 sharperson, mike ---- ---- .606 ---- ---- 0.606 zeile, todd ---- ---- ---- .614 .593 0.605 baerga, carlos ---- ---- ---- .604 ---- 0.604 hayes, chris ---- .601 .622 .606 .574 0.602 livingstone, scott ---- ---- ---- ---- .597 0.597 hamilton, j. .611 .584 ---- ---- ---- 0.595 kelly, pat ---- ---- ---- .595 ---- 0.595 lyons, steve .590 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.590 oberkfell, ken .590 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.590 johnson, howard .628 .549 .611 .573 ---- 0.588 bell, buddy .587 ---- ---- ---- ---- 0.587 lansford, carney .620 .578 .594 ---- .550 0.587 presley, jim .643 .595 .530 ---- ---- 0.584 schu, rick ---- .584 ---- ---- ---- 0.584 worthington, cal ---- .583 .575 ---- ---- 0.580 hollins, dave ---- ---- ---- ---- .577 0.577 sheffield, gary ---- ---- .584 ---- .567 0.575 blauser, jeff ---- .573 ---- ---- ---- 0.573 fryman, travis ---- ---- ---- .571 ---- 0.571 gantner, jim ---- ---- ---- .570 ---- 0.570 gomez, lee ---- ---- ---- .551 .542 0.546 palmer, dean ---- ---- ---- ---- .520 0.520 dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| grad student at large "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104505">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104505" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 dave winfield's name does not go in the same sentence. as aaron, robinson, and ott. in terms of peak, and i repeat peak years, winfield has done it all. he has batted in the 340's for a season, drove in 100 and more runs many times in a row before his injury. consistently hit at or near 300 while knocking in 35 home runs. have you even looked at dave winfield's slugging percentage for three or 4 of his best seasons. i still think that dave was one of the better of all time, but obviously not the best. he was one of the best athletes evr to play baseball. he hit line drives that hit the scoreboard in left-center field, a feat np one has done in the new stadium. heck, only 2 or 3 other people have hit it over that green fence since it has been remodeled. he could field, had a bullet arm, and his hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields, and barry bonds of last season. he is older now, and slowing down, takes more of an uppercut to lift the ball out of the park, but he will always be my hero, and my idol. there is nothing that could make me happier than george inviting dave back to the bronx to play his last year of ball with the yankees. of course, he will most likely refuse the offer, but who knows? for 3 million dollars, he'll play. heck they are giving gallego 2.5 million this year, having dave as their dh, while leaving him time to play the field when tartabull is injured, or nokes and mass are traded, should give the yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in a new age of yankee domination. michael lurie 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104506">
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 some pleasant (and then some not so pleasant) surprises about the 1993 edition of the bronx bombers so far. 4)wickman. a friend made a comparison between wickman and jack morris - they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win (although morris seems to be losing that ability). i figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade (best trade since we got that ruth guy), maybe winding up as a good middle reliever. but i like i've seen so far. he doesn't pitch pretty, but he gets the job actually, i kind of liked the abott trade. we did trade the rookie of the year, snow, but with don mattingly at first for another 8 years, why 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104510">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104510" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hi, baseball fans! so what do you say? don't you think he deserves it? i mean, heck, if dave winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it, as is lee smith (ha), then why don't we give dave kingman a chance? or darrell evans! yeah, yeah! after the hall of fame takes in them, it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon. oh, yeah. dave winfield--marginal player. guy didn't hit a lick, had negligible power, was a crap fielder and had no staying power. dave winfield, now entering his (i believe) 20th big league season, is still a damn decent hitter. admittedly, his defense has slipped a great deal, but in his prime, he had a powerful arm and great range. take a look at the stats: i don't know where you even begin to make an argument that winfield and kingman are similar players. kingman was a one-dimension power hitter--he couldn't field, he ran like an anvil, hit for a low average (though, if i remember right, his obp wasn't that hideous...), and (for those who consider such things important) was a absolute-primo-dick. eddie murray? yup, only the best 1st baseman of the 80's. i know that mvp votes are conducted by mediots, but given that he got jobbed out of the mvp he deserved in 1983, it seems that he wasn't overrated by the media. lee smith? hmmmm... this one's actually pretty close. he's had a s solid, dependable career as a closer despite pitching in some nasty parks (wrigley, fenway...). i'd have to take a closer look at the stats (it's been a while), but it seems lee arthur is of hof caliber. you do make a legitimate point about the hof credentials of relievers, simply racking up a lot of saves doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if you blow a bunch, too. simply because minnesota and boston and (for a month) atlanta used reardon as a closer for longer than he should have been one, the equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves. no way should homerman be in the hof, imho. darrell evans? nice career, actually a bit underrated (kinda like ted simmons, imho), but not a hof'er. well, in any case, i am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today's standards, lemme ask you this. who the hell playing the game isn't marginal? honestly, ozzie smith and robin yount don't belong there. they're both shortstops that just hung around for a long time. big deal. let's be a little more selective, huh? stop handing out these honors so liberally. save them for the guys who really deserve it. face it, if something now, wait a goddamn minute here. ozzie smith absolutely redefined the position of shortstop. his defense was so good that he's won something along the lines of 10 gold gloves. again, gold gloves are mediot-biased, and a good argument could be made that larkin deserved one or two of ozzie's more recent awards, but usually, this is tempered by someone else in the early 80's getting the gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier in his career. ozzie's offense, you ask? good obp, great speed numbers, in a park which, for most of his career, depressed offense, admittedly, no power ('cept against tom niedenfuer :-|), but still, a definite asset offensively. yount? 3,000 hits, mvp at two different positions, uh-huh, a real stiff. his '82 was one of the great years ever by a player in recent memory, and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of wagner and banks, as far as ss numbers go. he's a clear hof'er, imho. isn't done, there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore. when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates, the absurdity is apparent. gee, can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan? well, as far as garvey goes, you're right. garvey is a "mediot" candidate, pushed because of his "winning attitude" (a minor factor, if one at all), and his "great defense" (no errors, admittedly, but the range of a tree stump...). garvey shouldn't be in the hof. skyjack? i've said a lot of nasty things about skyjack in the last year or so, but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk about morris' "ability to win" which is nothing more than morris' "ability to pitch when toronto to score tons of runs". at this point, morris is an average pitcher (although from his early returns in '93, he may be damned close to done.). but, in all fairness, morris was a dominant pitcher in the 80's for up-and-down tiger teams. while 1984 was (obviously) a great year for detroit, the rest of the decade, the team was generally in contention, but not favorites. morris' career numbers are quite good, and worthy of hof "consideration". ryan? of course, but be careful. i guarantee you that someone will throw back your earlier logic about "yount and smith being shortstops who hung around a long time". after all, nolan never won a cy... damn, he's just pitcher who hung around for 99 years... his w-l record is mediocre... (of course, nolan's a hof'er...) puck? probably, although he's got to play reasonably well for a few more years (10 years, even good ones, aren't enough to make the hof, most likely). that said, i believe puckett will make the hof, pretty much regardless of how the rest of his career turns out (barring something really tragic or sudden). he's very popular in the media and with fans, and legitimately has been one of the best cf's in the game since he joined the league. i've always liked the guy, and i hope he does make it. and, in the end, i think the puck will make it in. but, really, it's too early to sell. this debate comes up rather frequently on the net, and, believe it or not, i never tire of it. it's an interesting subject. here's an off the top of my head list of potential hof'ers from each team. i probably left a couple of guys off, so feel free to follow up. i won't consider anyone who started playing after about 1985 (again, too early to tell.) [note: these are all active players, i'm not counting recent retirees] baltimore: cal ripken (should be a lock by now, even if gehrig's record stands) boston: roger clemens (might be a lock already, which is amazing), dawson (?) detroit: alan trammell and lou whitaker (possibilities) milwaukee: robin yount (discussed earlier) new york: wade boggs (possibly), mattingly (long shot) toronto: paul molitor and jack morris (possibilities) kansas city: george brett (lock) minnesota: kirby (too early to tell), winfield (lock) oakland: eckersley (lock), mcgwire (too early), rickey (lock), welch (long shot) texas: the mighty nolan [too early to consider canseco or strange :-)] cubs: sandberg (lock) st. louis: ozzie (lock), lee smith (probably) new york: murray (almost a lock), saberhagen (obviously, he's got to regain past form) [and most certainly, not vince coleman, despite what he'll tell you :-)] los angeles: butler, strawberry, and hershiser are all long shots. san diego: tony gwynn (pretty good shot) colorado: dale murphy (a good shot), ryan bowen (just to see if you're awake) [before i get flames: this is an off-the-top-of-the-head list, there's probably a few deserving candidates that i left off, and, i didn't include barry bonds, will clark, any atlanta starting pitcher, frank thomas, canseco, mcgriff, etc. because i only considered guys who started playing before 1985)] e-mail or post, i almost fear what i may have started here... bruce hasch hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu sell the team, eli!! "if a hitter is a good fastball hitter, does that mean i should throw him a bad fastball?"-- larry andersen 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104511">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104511" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 darryl strawberry's moon shots were fun! he can hit those high and far home runs that if he actually ran them out he'd be rounding second base by the time they landed. we used to say that he should have to file a flight plan at laguardia for some of them. then _bull_durham_ came out and that was changed. :-) on homers he pulled that didn't go high, they were microwave home runs. microwave, as in they got outta there in a hurry! in a game in 1988, he came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send a rocket down the right field line that didn't even allow bob murphy the "luxury" of a home run call. the story went he stayed in the clubhouse, the with the mets down by two and two on davey johnson sent for him to pinch hit. he came out of the clubhouse saying "one swing and we go home." he hit the homer, ran the bases, then went straight for the clubhouse to shower and go home. those were the days.... scott barman | mets mailing list (feed the following into your shell): scott@asd.com | mail mets-request@asd.com <<! | subscribe let's go mets! | ! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104514">
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 boy, hats off to any cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put down braves fans. i mean, all the braves have done is gone to two consecutive world series. also, being the cubs fan that i am, i really have to hand it to all the braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that infernal cheer that they have. however, i do have to protest anyone saying that all cubs fans are stupid. the way i see it, either i'm just too stupid to acknowledge it, or that observation was just plain wrong. you might have us confused with bear fans. ;) anyway, about a two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the cubs would finish up last in their division. (even behind florida?!? sheesh!) these same people were predicting the braves to clean up in their respective division. well, we're ten games into the season and these people are a little less vocal now. i wonder why. well, the way i see it, the east is up for grabs, and whoever wants it most is going to take it, with the exception of florida. every team seems to have good batting and pitching, with philly presently leading the pack. but, i just have to point out, if the cubs do take the east, they'll do it without the benefit of a competent manager. however, and it pains me to say it, the pennant is going to go to the west. just had to get that off my chest. benefit of a compee 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104515">
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 was going over some videos last night..... studying 1986 and 1992 videotapes of jose canseco proved to be very interesting. and enlightening. here's my analysis of jose canseco, circa sep '92, and jose canseco, circa june 1986. 1. he's bulked up too much. period. he needs to lose about 20 pounds, not gain more bulk. 2. his bat speed has absolutely vanished. conservatively, i'd say he's lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a huge amount of speed. 3. that open stance is killing him. note that he acts sort of like brian downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is released. downing could do this without significant head movement - canseco can't. also, note that canseco doesn't always close his stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes, they're fully closed. without a good starting point, it's hard to make adjustments in your swing. what would i do, if i were jose? aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that i could never touch, so that i'd never have to work again, i'd restructure my entire swing. first, minimize movement before the swing. close and widen the stance, and severely cut down the stride i take on my swing. hopefully, this will cut down on the time i need to swing, and will allow me to move the bathead more freely. second, drop 20 pounds. cut out the weight work. third, relax the wrists. will cost some power, but until i can find my 1988 stroke, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up, rolling the wrists through the strike zone, and hit line drives. his strength is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of the park. if canseco's open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back problems, he'll be out of baseball in three years. if not, he could still hit 600+ hr. * gary huckabay * "you think that's loud enough, a$$hole?" * * "movie rights * "well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir, * * available thru * i'd be happy to turn it up for you. i didn't * * ted frank." * know that many people your age liked king's x." * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104520">
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 *thud* (see .sig) kurt bose (as in daisy, not rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu help cleanse r.s.b of all mindless woofing! whenever someone at your site posts an article with a subject of the form "my team r00lz!!!!!!", simply look him up in the directory, hunt him down, and beat him senseless! easy, fun, rewarding! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104523">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104523" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 : i think most of the problems mainly arose from manager gene mauch's : ineptitude in managing the pitching staff. down the stretch, he : abused jim bunning, chris short, and robin roberts (i think those : are the three) pitching each on only 2 days rest for quite some : time. by the time they hit the last 2 weeks of the season, : obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm. oh : well. roberts was long gone -- he was probably an oriole in 1964. or maybe a colt .45. the 3rd starter was art mahaffey, the previous year's ace. dennis bennett was the 4th starter. they were indeed 6.5 up with 12 to go, but they won their final two games after the horrid 10-loss streak. the final game victory (bunning's 19th win, if memory serves) kept the reds from tying for the title; they and the phils were both 1 game behind the cards, with the giants(?) another game back. the mets couldn't hold an early lead against the cards that final sunday, or there would have been a 3-way tie. too bad they couldn't have saved some of the 15 or so runs they scored on saturday when they crushed st. louis. neal traven+@pitt.edu you're only young once, but you can be traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu immature forever. -- larry andersen 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104527">
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 does any one out there listen to wfan? for those of you who do not know what i am talking about, it is an all sports radio staion in new york. on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast. in particular, i want to know how len berman and mike lupica's show is. i go to school in virginia so i can't listen when there are on during the day. just you're right about the signal being strong. i live in west philadelphia, and i can get fan almost perfectly. it's a sports fans dream (especially if that person is from ny and wants to hear about his teams while he's away at school). as for lupica & berman, it's turned out to be lupica, then berman. neither of them wanted to work a full four hour show, so ed coleman and dave sims' old four-hour slot was broken down into two seperate two-hour show - lupica from 10-12, and berman from 12-2. and they both happen to suck in comparison to eddie and dave. come back, guys! the fan is an okay sports radio station, but doesn't come close to the ultimate in sports radio, 610 wip in philadelphia. the signal might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in new york feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining 24 hours a day. wip took two of your best sports jockeys too, jody macdonald and steve fredericks. 610 wip is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 am till midnight, check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia. if i'm not mistaken, wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation? like i said, i live in philly, so i can hear fan and/or wip whenever i want. but i cannot stand wip. and it isn't because i loathe the philly sports teams - the phillies are my favorite nl team (yanks are favorite al), and the eagles aren't too bad either. there are two big problems: 1)total emphasis on the home teams, especially the eagles. unlike the fan hosts, who can at least answer a question about an out-of-town team if a caller asks, the wip hosts seem to have no clue about any team that doesn't play on broad street. also, fans periodic sports updates (every 20 minutes) gives sports news and scores from around the country. it's very rare to hear an out-of-town score being reported on wip. 2)the hosts. with the exception of jody macdonald, who i miss from his days at fan, none of the hosts really seems to have both a broad knowledge of the sport or a good on-air presence. the worst is gary cobb, who seems to have been hired solely on the basis that he used to play for the eagles. anyway, that's my two cents on the whole fan vs wip battle. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104530">
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 just wondering. a friend and i were talking the other day, and we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players, past and present. we weren't able to come up with much, except for sandy koufax, (somebody) stankowitz, and maybe john lowenstein. can anyone come up with any more. i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but humor us. thanks for your help. hank greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his jewish faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur) pablo iglesias pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104535">
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 i feel as if i might be causing some bad karma by doing this, but i just have to know...... is the ack man still in organized baseball? glad you asked!! the ack-man, and nine of his relatives, are currently impersonating the baltimore orioles pitching staff. personally, i believe that the evil ackers kidnapped the real o's staff, and are currently in the process of impersonating mussina, sutcliffe, mcdonald, olson. no, no no. the ack man is apparently an alien life-form, much like the pod people from planet mars, who can take on any form (the ability remains the same, however). the ack-people have been spotted on many teams to date, but it appears that the orioles staff (mentioned above) and the expos bullpen (barnes, walton, fassero, gardiner and rojas) have been the prime target. apparently john wetteland was roughed up by the ack-people during spring training due to the fact that his system rejected the takeover, and has been on the dl ever since. contact the authorities! this evil plot must be stopped! (the ack-people can keep jack morris and juan guzman, though. i enjoy watching toronto fans suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal ;-) scot hughes | department of chemical engineering | expos in '93! falcon@cs.mcgill.ca| mcgill university, montreal, quebec| {witty saying here} 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104537">
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 substituting irony for brains, (bruce klopfenstein) said: of *course* they left rbis off; we're comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual, so only individual stats count. i forgot. most runs are scored by players stealing home, so rbi don't count for anything. uh, right. you also forgot that you can't get an rbi (barring a hr) with nobody on base. what fraction of all runs come on solo hr? most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good. i use the phrase "happened to be" advisedly. lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to "turn it up a notch" in clutch/rbi/whatever situations, and what they've found is that there is no evidence that *anyone* has such an ability to any measurable extent. there are no clutch hitters. people who tend to do things that *would* cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position. my mistake. i agree. me, too... rbi are a worthless stat. of course, so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases, so batting average, slugging and obp out, too. hmmm... i guess homers would not count then, either. my point? rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. and no stat (or lack of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. maybe no stat can tell me, either, but some people are... i just know it!!! 8) ed o. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104538">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104538" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 attn: those who live inthe philadelphia metro area... back in september i was listening to wip, and i remember the morning guys were talking with mayor ed rendell. the topic of conversation was a new ball park for the phillies. the location for this new park was suggested to be near 30th st station. at the time, the mayor was optimisitic that in the future this could become a reality. has there been any new news on this subject or is it still a pipe dream? i know the city of philadelphia has other projects ahead, such as the new convention center and the upcoming spectrum ii. but it would be nice to see this a reality. it is planned that the phillies leave the vet and leave it solely to the eagles (and if that's the case, the eagles should make the vet a grass stadium, but that's another story). i want to see that day! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104542">
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 here is the opi (offensive production index) for all nl players with at least 10 at-bats. it is early in the season so there are some high numbers. barry bonds finished last season at 0.795. i welcome comments and suggestions. league opi: 0.410 league ba: 0.252 league slg: 0.375 league oba: 0.321 rank player opi ba slg oba 1 phi,daulton 1.101 0.333 0.875 0.515 2 phi,kruk 1.069 0.429 0.821 0.529 3 cub,grace 1.007 0.452 0.742 0.514 4 cub,may 0.931 0.389 0.889 0.421 5 col,boston 0.888 0.545 0.545 0.545 6 pit,bell 0.873 0.429 0.714 0.467 7 col,galarraga 0.867 0.458 0.708 0.458 8 stl,pena 0.833 0.400 0.600 0.516 9 stl,zeile 0.811 0.440 0.560 0.500 10 cin,mitchell 0.810 0.429 0.643 0.467 11 mon,lansing 0.792 0.419 0.677 0.438 12 pit,slaught 0.754 0.474 0.526 0.474 13 mon,vanderwal 0.746 0.389 0.556 0.476 14 nym,tfernandez 0.709 0.300 0.400 0.500 15 snf,martinez 0.697 0.300 0.400 0.500 16 hou,bagwell 0.695 0.367 0.567 0.424 17 col,hayes 0.686 0.333 0.667 0.364 18 col,eyoung 0.682 0.333 0.500 0.407 19 mon,alou 0.675 0.371 0.600 0.389 20 cin,milligan 0.659 0.333 0.375 0.515 21 phi,dykstra 0.646 0.214 0.571 0.405 22 snf,bonds 0.624 0.280 0.680 0.333 22 flo,conine 0.624 0.393 0.393 0.469 24 snd,plantier 0.603 0.286 0.571 0.375 25 hou,gonzalez 0.596 0.296 0.667 0.296 26 hou,anthony 0.594 0.320 0.480 0.414 27 col,cole 0.579 0.318 0.409 0.400 28 atl,sanders 0.576 0.357 0.643 0.357 29 mon,berry 0.566 0.273 0.273 0.500 30 cub,sosa 0.558 0.303 0.545 0.343 31 stl,jefferies 0.551 0.269 0.692 0.296 32 pit,vanslyke 0.549 0.296 0.444 0.387 33 *montreal 0.548 0.312 0.490 0.367 34 los,butler 0.545 0.296 0.333 0.457 35 mon,grissom 0.542 0.333 0.455 0.371 36 pit,king 0.536 0.308 0.346 0.438 37 snd,gwynn 0.533 0.280 0.400 0.379 38 pit,merced 0.532 0.300 0.400 0.391 39 nym,murray 0.521 0.308 0.462 0.357 40 stl,gilkey 0.514 0.312 0.438 0.353 41 nym,bonilla 0.507 0.292 0.417 0.370 42 snd,walters 0.501 0.300 0.500 0.333 43 cub,wilson 0.497 0.323 0.452 0.344 44 flo,weiss 0.492 0.261 0.348 0.433 45 *philadelphia 0.487 0.243 0.431 0.348 46 atl,justice 0.480 0.207 0.448 0.361 47 *pittsburgh 0.479 0.292 0.428 0.351 48 stl,osmith 0.476 0.310 0.448 0.355 49 phi,incaviglia 0.473 0.250 0.500 0.308 50 pit,young 0.470 0.286 0.500 0.310 51 *stlouis 0.467 0.275 0.445 0.344 52 *colorado 0.459 0.287 0.426 0.327 53 nym,hundley 0.458 0.300 0.450 0.333 54 nym,orsulak 0.454 0.357 0.429 0.400 55 snf,benjamin 0.440 0.200 0.500 0.273 56 atl,gant 0.438 0.214 0.464 0.333 56 *nymets 0.438 0.261 0.345 0.356 58 *houston 0.436 0.260 0.415 0.318 59 mon,pitcher 0.434 0.312 0.375 0.353 60 phi,morandini 0.433 0.240 0.360 0.321 61 hou,cedeno 0.427 0.280 0.440 0.308 62 cin,sabo 0.423 0.226 0.452 0.273 63 snf,manwaring 0.413 0.261 0.435 0.292 64 *snfrancisco 0.412 0.253 0.396 0.315 65 atl,blauser 0.409 0.276 0.310 0.364 66 snf,thompson 0.408 0.278 0.389 0.316 66 hou,caminiti 0.408 0.259 0.481 0.286 68 flo,barberie 0.405 0.267 0.267 0.371 69 mon,cordero 0.400 0.276 0.345 0.323 70 snd,sheffield 0.397 0.241 0.448 0.267 71 los,karros 0.392 0.259 0.296 0.355 72 snf,williams 0.391 0.226 0.452 0.250 72 snd,mcgriff 0.391 0.192 0.385 0.276 74 flo,destrade 0.390 0.267 0.333 0.333 75 col,girardi 0.388 0.238 0.381 0.304 76 atl,bream 0.386 0.182 0.409 0.250 77 mon,wood 0.385 0.200 0.300 0.333 78 flo,santiago 0.384 0.200 0.360 0.286 79 phi,thompson 0.383 0.227 0.273 0.320 80 snf,clayton 0.382 0.345 0.379 0.345 80 los,piazza 0.382 0.304 0.391 0.333 82 snd,bell 0.378 0.273 0.364 0.304 83 los,wallach 0.374 0.200 0.400 0.273 84 cin,larkin 0.367 0.281 0.281 0.361 85 pit,garcia 0.366 0.273 0.318 0.304 85 *cincinnati 0.366 0.256 0.319 0.326 87 nym,coleman 0.363 0.259 0.259 0.310 88 nym,kent 0.362 0.190 0.286 0.320 89 stl,whiten 0.361 0.240 0.360 0.321 90 cin,roberts 0.359 0.278 0.278 0.333 90 *cubs 0.359 0.236 0.366 0.277 92 snf,lewis 0.354 0.227 0.364 0.261 92 hou,finley 0.354 0.214 0.250 0.312 92 col,clark 0.354 0.250 0.350 0.286 95 los,pitcher 0.350 0.286 0.357 0.286 95 *sndiego 0.350 0.219 0.357 0.268 97 atl,lemke 0.345 0.200 0.240 0.333 98 *losangeles 0.339 0.221 0.275 0.311 99 snf,mcgee 0.335 0.267 0.300 0.333 99 *atlanta 0.335 0.199 0.308 0.287 101 cin,sanders 0.334 0.267 0.333 0.290 101 cin,oliver 0.334 0.208 0.208 0.345 103 snd,gardner 0.332 0.238 0.333 0.273 103 los,reed 0.332 0.276 0.276 0.323 105 phi,hollins 0.327 0.226 0.290 0.294 106 *florida 0.326 0.226 0.268 0.311 107 los,davis 0.325 0.188 0.219 0.278 108 atl,pendleton 0.322 0.212 0.273 0.297 109 snf,clark 0.316 0.161 0.290 0.257 110 los,strawberry 0.314 0.111 0.185 0.314 110 hou,biggio 0.314 0.179 0.214 0.303 112 phi,bell 0.304 0.182 0.364 0.217 113 flo,magadan 0.303 0.182 0.182 0.357 114 stl,pagnozzi 0.299 0.158 0.316 0.238 115 pit,martin 0.295 0.167 0.417 0.167 115 col,bichette 0.295 0.222 0.389 0.222 117 hou,taubensee 0.294 0.190 0.333 0.227 118 mon,bolick 0.292 0.250 0.312 0.250 119 flo,pose 0.291 0.258 0.323 0.303 120 mon,cianfrocco 0.287 0.188 0.375 0.188 121 nym,johnson 0.274 0.136 0.136 0.296 122 cin,kelly 0.272 0.250 0.333 0.270 123 atl,nixon 0.256 0.185 0.222 0.241 124 nym,pitcher 0.255 0.167 0.250 0.231 125 pit,pitcher 0.250 0.222 0.278 0.222 126 cub,buechle 0.231 0.154 0.192 0.241 127 stl,lankford 0.225 0.133 0.133 0.316 128 atl,olson 0.224 0.150 0.150 0.261 129 cub,vizcaino 0.217 0.148 0.259 0.179 130 cub,sanchez 0.212 0.188 0.219 0.212 131 phi,duncan 0.202 0.214 0.214 0.214 132 los,offerman 0.198 0.182 0.182 0.250 133 snf,pitcher 0.197 0.176 0.235 0.176 134 mon,laker 0.183 0.133 0.267 0.133 135 phi,chamberlain 0.180 0.111 0.111 0.200 136 snd,pitcher 0.164 0.182 0.182 0.182 136 atl,pitcher 0.164 0.182 0.182 0.182 138 phi,pitcher 0.159 0.111 0.167 0.158 139 cub,maldonado 0.150 0.105 0.158 0.150 140 flo,felix 0.148 0.172 0.207 0.172 141 cin,espy 0.141 0.100 0.100 0.182 142 stl,jordan 0.140 0.105 0.211 0.105 143 atl,berryhill 0.128 0.091 0.182 0.091 144 cub,pitcher 0.126 0.111 0.111 0.158 145 snd,shipley 0.122 0.087 0.174 0.087 146 stl,pitcher 0.106 0.125 0.125 0.125 147 hou,pitcher 0.053 0.067 0.067 0.067 147 col,benavides 0.053 0.067 0.067 0.067 147 cin,pitcher 0.053 0.067 0.067 0.067 150 cub,wilkins 0.038 0.000 0.000 0.067 151 flo,pitcher 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 151 col,pitcher 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.74*1b + 1.28*2b + 1.64*3b + 2.25*hr + 0.53*bb + 0.34*(sb-2*cs) opi = ---------------------------------------------------------------- ab - h ba = h / ab slg = (h + 2b + 2*3b + 3*hr) / ab oba = (h + bb) / (ab + bb) jet propulsion laboratory | schmke@cco.caltech.edu 4800 oak grove dr. | schmidt@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov m/s 525-3684 | pasadena, ca 91109 | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104546">
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 well, the red sox have apparenly resigned herm winningham to a aaa contract. ted "larry" simmons signed him to a aaa contract then released him from buffalo, allowing lou "curly" gorman to circumvent the rule about not resigning free agents until may 1. clearly, neither of these guys is bright enough to be moe. mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com make it right before you make it faster. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104547">
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 rawley eastwick 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104549">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104549" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant |> on the team. (to a large extent). if frank thomas hit first, he'd lose a lot |> of rbi's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive |> in 100 runs? doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with devon white's |> ~.300 obp in front of you... i'm pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once. (i know someone will correct me if i'm wrong.) rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics. you can talk about obp and slg% all you want, but the fact remains: the team that scores more runs wins the game! flame away -- john bratt |> gord niguma |> (fav player: john olerud) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104550">
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 joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball. for anyone who didn't see sunday's game, with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform, a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers. later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter. what the hell is he thinking. educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year. lankford injured himself in a previous game and torre was resting as far as the whitten/gilkey controversy. whitten adds some more needed power, and if jordan continues to hit the way he has been, gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough. brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104552">
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 do you think omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club? last week a banner appeared in the kingdome: older women for omar * cheryl marks * hp-ux address: cherylm@lsid.hp.com hp desk: cheryl marks/hpa100 * telenet: 1-335-2193 ma bell: (206) 335-2193 * usps: cheryl marks * ms 330 * 8600 soper hill road * everett, wa 98205-1298 * "too much of a good thing is wonderful." mae west * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104553">
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 actually, i kind of liked the abott trade. we did trade the rookie of the year, snow, but with don mattingly at first for another 8 years, why i'd be willing to make two wagers: 1) snow doesn't win roy. 2) mattingly is out of baseball within five years. i'm skeptical of the first, because i don't think snow is that good a player, and he is on a losing team. i'm skeptical of the second because of his back. mattingly is 32 this year, and how many players play until they are 40? not too many, and most of them didn't have chronic back problems when they were 32. could be wrong on either or both, but i think that's the smart way to bet... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104557">
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 hi, baseball fans! so what do you say? don't you think he deserves it? mean, heck, if dave winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it, is lee smith (ha), then why don't we give dave kingman a chance? or darrell evans! yeah, yeah! after the hall of fame takes in them, it can take in murray and jeff reardon. unfortunately, you seem to lack the ability to rate players. dave winfield has had a better career than half the people in the hall of fame. eddie murray and darrel evans are both one of the top 100 players of all time. lee smith has had probably the greatest long career of any relief pitcher since 1960, with the possible exception of gossage. on the other hand, kingman probably isn't one of the best 750 players of all time. and reardon, though a good pitcher, isn't in smith's class career wise. well, in any case, i am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody hall of fame consideration to players that are by today's standards, honestly, ozzie smith and robin yount don't belong there. they're both shortstops that just hung around for a long time. big deal. we're talking 2 of the top 50 players of all time here. there probably aren't 5 shortstops in history who were better than these two. let's be a little more selective, huh? stop handing out these honors liberally. save them for the guys who really deserve it. face it, if isn't done, there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore. when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates, the absurdity is apparent. garvey sucked. morris, while a very good pitcher, simply doesn't belong near cooperstown. gee, can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan? if puckett and ryan (okay, no if there) get into to the hall, they will be marginal hall of famers (unless puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for a while longer) to put this in perspective, here's a listing of the linear weights values of the careers of the players you mention. in parenthesis is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it. while no one would claim these are perfect rankings, they should give you a good value of these guys' careers as compared to average players. robin yount 43.0 (41) ozzie smith 42.1 (45) dave winfield 40.3 (53) eddie murray 37.5 (68) darrel evans 35.2 (80) kirby puckett 24.3 (180) nolan ryan 21.6 (219) jack morris 11.8 (478) dave kingman 0.4 steve garvey -5.8 to give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the hall: of the 71 eligible players whose career stats equaled 35.0, 64 are in the hall of fame. the ones who aren't include 4 19th century players, ron santo, bobby grich, and bob johnson. of those eligible who score between 30.0 and 34.9, 15 of 25 are in. of those eligible who score between 25.0 and 29.9, 24 of 44 are in. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104558">
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 in a philadelphia inquirer a few days ago, it was reported that there were two (2) plans for a new phillies stadium: the already-mentioned 30th street station proposal, and a location near broad street and race street, i think. i can't remember the exact details, but the stadium would be build practically downtown. there is a small lot that could be used, according to the paper. the 30th street plan has run into some trouble, because amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to accomodate the stadium. i don't have an opinion just yet, just letting everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now. neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon, however, because nobody wants to pay for it :-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104562">
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 wip took two of your best sports jockeys too, jody macdonald and steve fredericks. dude! are you nuts? wfan is second to none. jody mac's exit was quite a loss, but if you think fredericks on the fan was much of one, you're pretty 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104563">
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 yeah, the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year, but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. i *am* as old as 1964 (man!) and i was a big phillies fan at the time (age 13). the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever. since i was born in the late pleistocene, i too remember 1964. that year, the dodgers were several games out of first and i think finished sixth in the league. this was kind of odd because they won the world series both the previous year and the following year. warren usui i'm one with the universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104564">
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 yeah, the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year, but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. i *am* as old as 1964 (man!) and i was a big phillies fan at the time (age 13). september '64 is still a painful thing to remember. but i can tell you that the phillies never led the league by 15 that year. going by memory alone, i believe their biggest lead was 7 1/2 games, and they were 6 1/2 ahead when the famous 10-game losing streak began, a streak during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose known to man. anyway, i think they rebounded just before the end and won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the final day, but finished tied with the giants one game out. and didn't the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever. ok, you guys stirred up my childhood memories, so i went and did some research on the final month or so of the 1964 season. it turns out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate, at least as far as the phillies record goes. on september 1 1964 this was the top of the n.l. standings: w l gb philadelphia 79 51 - cincinnati 74 57 5 1/2 st. louis 72 59 7 1/2 san francisco 73 60 7 1/2 this is a game-by-game description of the remainder of the phillies' season: date score opponent lead pitcher (starting and winner/loser) 9/1 4-3 houston 5 1/2 bunning (15-4) 9/2 2-1 houston 5 1/2 short (15-7) 9/3 0-6 houston 5 1/2 bennett (9-12) 9/4 5-3 san francisco 6 1/2 mahaffey; baldschun (6-5) 9/5 ??win san francisco 6 1/2 bunning (16-4) 9/6 3-4 san francisco 5 1/2 short; baldschun (6-6) 9/7 5-1 los angeles bennett (10-12) 1-3 los angeles 6 1/2 wise (5-3) 9/8 2-3 los angeles 6 mahaffey (12-7) 9/9 5-10/11 st. louis 5 bunning; baldschun (6-7) (cardinals take over 2nd place from cincinnati) 9/10 5-1 st. louis 6 short (16-7) 9/11 1-0 san francisco 6 bennett (11-12) 9/12 1-9 san francisco 6 mahaffey (12-8) (giants move into a tie for 2nd with st. louis) 9/13 4-1/10 san francisco 6 bunning (17-4) (cardinals back in sole possesion of 2nd place) 9/14 4-1 houston 6 1/2 short (17-7) 9/15 1-0 houston 6 bennett (12-12) 9/16 5-6 houston 6 bunning (17-5) 9/17 4-3 los angeles 6 1/2 wise; schantz (2-4) 9/18 3-4 los angeles 6 short; baldschun (6-8) 9/19 3-4/16 los angeles 5 1/2 bennett; baldschun (6-9) 9/20 3-2 los angeles 6 1/2 bunning (18-5) (reds move back into tie for 2nd with cardinals) well so far so good for the phillies. but now it all falls apart ... 9/21 0-1 cincinnati 5 1/2 mahaffey (12-9) (reds take sole possesion of 2nd place) 9/22 2-9 cincinnati 4 1/2 short (17-8) 9/23 4-6 cincinnati 3 1/2 bennett (12-13) 9/24 3-5 milwaukee 3 bunning (18-6) 9/25 5-7/12 milwaukee 1 1/2 short; boozer (3-4) (cards now 2 1/2 back in 3rd, giants 3 1/2 in 4th) 9/26 4-6 milwaukee 1/2 mahaffey; schantz (2-5) 9/27 8-14 milwaukee -1 bunning (18-7) (phils lose 7 1/2 games in 7 days; reds take over 1st, cardinals 1 1/2 back in 3rd) 9/28 1-5 st. louis -1 1/2 short(17-9) (cardinals take over 2nd place, phils drop to 3rd) 9/29 2-4 st. louis -1 1/2 bennett (12-14) (reds and cardinals now tied for 1st) 9/30 5-8 st. louis -2 1/2 bunning (18-8) (cardinals take 1/2 game lead over reds) 10/1 4-3 cincinnati -1 1/2 short; roebuck (5-3) (phillies halt 10-game losing streak; cards lead reds by 1/2 game) 10/2 did not play; cards lose to mets, reds tied for 1st, phils 1 game back 10/3 10-0 cincinnati -1 bunning (19-8) (cards beat mets, take first by 1 from reds and phillies) whew! what a finish! and the final standings were: w l gb st. louis 93 69 - philadelphia 92 70 1 cincinnati 92 70 1 san francisco 90 72 3 now it doesn't appear to me that phillies pitchers bunning and short were really overused, at least by the four-man rotation standard of the day, until well along into the 10-game losing streak, at which time mauch was probably desperate for a win at any cost because the phillies substantial lead had evaporated. the way they were used at that time may have made the problem worse, although bunning had one of his sharpest games of the year in the final day 10-0 shutout of the reds that cost the reds a share of the pennant. bunning pitched a complete game six-hitter, striking out five and walking one. it would be inetersting to see, though, how the total innings for the year for bunning and short stacks up against the rest of the league. also notice that the phillies played every day from at least september 1 through october 1; while they didn't play substantially more games than the other teams, the other teams each had a couple days off during that eric smith erics@netcom.com erics@infoserv.com ci$: 70262,3610 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104565">
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 just a little something i found while reading the village voice, which is not noted for its sports coverage, but occasionally the print some interesting features. this year, the predictions/team analyses for the 1993 season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics. i don't have the article in front of me, so i'll only give the memorable ones here that i remember and know the melody to. i could dig up more if there is interest. yankess (to the tune of "subterranean homesick blues") howe is in the basement, mixing up the medicine. george is on the pavement thinking 'bout the government. wade boggs in a trench coat, bat out, paid off, says he's got a bad back, wants to get it laid off. look out kids, it's somethin' you did. don't know when, but it's columbus again. mets (to the tune of "like a rolling stone") once upon a time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime, didn't you? people said "beware cone, he's bound to roam" but you thought they were just kidding you. you used to laugh about, the strawberry that was headin' out. but now you don't talk so loud, now you don't seem so proud, about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal.... phillies (to the tune of "highway 61") well daulton and dykstra should have some fun, just keep them off of highway 61! giants (to the tune of "the ballad of rubin 'hurricane' carter") this is the story of the magowan, the man st. petersburg came to pan, for something that he never done, he sits in the owner's box but one... day he could have been the tampian of the world! bill moakler | lpo 10280 | !rutgers anime! moakler@remus.rutgers.edu| po box 5064 | !atlantic anime alliance! (908)-932-3465 |new brunswick, nj 08903| !chibi-con '93! i am not an otaku; i am a free man! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104566">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104566" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 well, after suffering from an intense fit of minnesota-induced cabin fever, i've decided to road trip to milwaukee and take in a couple of games this weekend. a couple games at county stadium will be great to relieve tension, but i thought "why not go to wrigley for a game too?" i see the cubs are playing the phillies on sat (2:05 start, i believe that's eastern time listed). i figured it would be fun to bounce down to wrigley for the day game and live it up a little. i'm wondering if anyone (esp. cubbie fans) have some advice on: 1) if i'm taking 41 (skokie hwy) south until it runs into 94, what's the best way to get to wrigley? i'm planning on getting there an hour or two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy. 2) is it probable that i'll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats (2 or 3) on game day? i figure since it's early in the year, ryno's out and the weather isn't great i should be able to get tickets. if not, what's the best way to get advance tickets; can i call the cubs' ticket office directly and pick up tickets at the will call window? 3) any advice on where to eat before or after the game? 4) do they allow inflatable i-luv-ewe dolls (present from lundy) into the bleachers? :-) dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays - do it again in '93 kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu new .. quotes out of context! "not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - stephen lawrence 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104567">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104567" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i would e-mail this to you, but my mailserver doesn't recognize you or anyway, the worst pitcher on the yanks. if you mean currently on the team, then i have to go with scott "i'm a schizophrenic...no, i'm not!" kamienicki. sure, occasionally the guy can pitch well for 5 or 6 innings, but then he starts to go insane. a sure sign that he's losing his stuff (and his mind) is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters and yell at himself. the worst all-time yanks pitcher? gotta go with ed "new york? i have to pitch in [gulp] new york?" whitson. 'nuff said! --i'm outta here like vladimir! -alan sepinwall xviii | "what's this? this is ice. this is what happens to water when it gets | | too cold. this? this is kent. this is what happens to people when | | they get too sexually frustrated." | | -val kilmer, "real genius" | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104571">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104571" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the nl has). i believe one reason are the expansion teams. any thoughts? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104572">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104572" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball. for anyone who didn't see sunday's game, with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform, a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers. later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter. what the hell is he thinking. for your information, lankford is injured (i think it is his shoulder or rib cage), so he could not use him as a pinch hitter. earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt, but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench. gilkey hit over 300 last year, what does he have to do to start, the guy would be starting on most every team in the league. i do believe that whiten was a very good aquisition for the cards. he does not have too much offensive capabilities, but he is an awesome defensively. since when have the cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense?:) i forgot who st. louis gave up for him, but it was not too much. as far as gilkey is concerned, he is a leftfielder and so is brian jordan, who beat him out. i expect to see a gilkey/jordan platoon in lf. furthermore, in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home, i agree with you on this one. as soon as larkin threw that ball, i knew that lankford was a dead bird. but how could dent have known that larkin would make a perfect throw? i strongly believe that torre is one of the best managers in baseball. don't forget the overachieving cards of '91 that won all those close games and went from last place to second place (although they were oveshadowed by the braves/ twins last to first climb). he won a division title, and barely lost a pennant race when he was with the braves (why atlanta ever even considered firing him i will never understand). with torre at the controls, the cardinals are heading in the right direction. one more thing, one game does not make a season. yes, they lost to the reds, but with the second best pitching staff in the national league (first in the east), and a pretty good offense, the redbirds will win a lot more than they lose. maybe this is the year that they will go all the way. charles, a very enthusiastic cardnials fan º charles rosen º thirty-four to thirteen!!! º º university of alabama º national champs!!! roll tide!!! º º tuscaloosa, al º (need i say more?) º 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104575">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104575" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 not clear to me at all. i'd certainly rather have a team who was winning 4-1 games than 2-1 games. in the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the 4-1 game. but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104576">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104576" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 just wondering. a friend and i were talking the other day, and we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players, past and present. we weren't able to come up with much, except for sandy koufax, (somebody) stankowitz, and maybe john lowenstein. can anyone come up with any more. i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but humor us. thanks for your help. hank greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his jewish faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur) i thought that was sandy koufax. pablo iglesias pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104578">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104578" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 you can add steve rosenberg, one-time white sox reliever now in the mets system, to the list. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104582">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104582" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hello, i'm doing a paper on censorship in music and i would appreciate it if you took the time to participate in this survey. please answer as each question asks ('why?' simply means that you have room to explain your answer, if you chose.). the last question is for any comments, questions, or suggestions. thank you in advance, please e-mail to the address at the end. i) are you [male/female] ii) what is your age? iii)what is your major/occupation? iv) what type of music do you listen to (check all that apply)? a. hard rock b. metal c. alternative d. blues e. rap f. jazz g. soft rock h. easy listening i. country j. classical k. hard core l. dance m. new age n. others (did i miss any?)____________ 1) do you think recordings with objectionable or offensive lyrics be labeled? [yes/no] why? 2) do you think certain recordings should be banned from minors (under 18 years of age)? [yes/no] why? 3) do you think certain recordings should be banned. period. [yes/no] why? 4) if yes to any of the above, who should decide: a. parents b. government c. music industry d. other________________ feel free to add any comments on this. 5) do you think [more/less] should be done for controling record sales, or do you think the present labeling system is enough? 6) what is your definition of censorship? also, feel free to add comments, suggestions, questions, or further explanations. please e-mail at: mtt@kepler.unh.edu or hit 'r' to reply. matthew t. thompson disclaimer: if any responses are used in paper, they will be anoynamous (sp?) unless the person specifies they what their name to be used. *************this .sig is closed for repairs******************************** ution,| } matthew t. thompson rrrrrrr! *pound, pound, thud* "ouch"$%#@"duh?" e-mail at mtt@kepler.unh.edu or shazam@unh.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104583">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104583" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them. frank s. kim 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104584">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104584" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i'm no kingman fan. just thought i'd point out that he's the only player in history to have five three-hr games. joe carter has four. eddie murray three. mccovey and gehrig also three. ruth, mays, foxx and dawson two each. i don't think reggie's ws game counts, else i believe he would also have had two. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104585">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104585" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 if the braves continue to average 3 runs a game, then 3 is where they will finish. p. tierney so, if the braves run production falls to 1 per game, which is certainly where it's headed (if they're lucky), does that mean they'll finish @econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke. s to my correspondents: my email has been changed. e l my new address is: fls@econ.duke.edu d f if mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu u 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104590">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104590" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 writes... i've recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions. 2b career what about u. johnny hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in cleveland indians history? 225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300. a great, great second baseman. jon "johnny" hodapp jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104595">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104595" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i can't believe this, howe has an era in the 80's he is improving!!! key pitches a great game, and they screw it up again. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104599">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104599" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 and then cs1442aq@news.uta.edu (cs1442aq) quoth: nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee. is having surgery and is expected to miss 2-5 weeks. that's too bad. i really had hoped nolan could end his career with a great year. i suppose there is still hope. jason lee jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu giants e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0 the most beautiful equation in mathematics. magic for all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: number: "it might have been." john greenleaf whittier 155 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104600">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104600" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 deion sanders hit a home run in his only ab today. nixon was 1 for 4. infield single. deion's batting over .400 nixon: around .200. whom would you start? wise up, bobby. see y'all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104601">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104601" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 who thinks the astros are going places??? they're currently first place. they're 5-4, 5-1 on the road! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104602">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104602" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 today (4/14) cubs activated p mike harkey from dl, whom did they move to make room for harkey? shawn boskie. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104605">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104605" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 spanky is too slow! if he were quicker, he would still be here. but with slaught and tom prince, they didn't want to lose prince in order to bring up that 11th pitcher. slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely! tom prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher. think of him as a young dann bilardello. i can't begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy, who's been in aaa most of the last 5 seasons. the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options, then eventually sent prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep. he's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't clear waivers now? why would they care? sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104606">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104606" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i agree, though i'd also be happy with a stadium that looks like new comiskey. the new park was also made for baseball. unlike three rivers, the vet, riverfront, etc., it's not a football park in which they also play baseball. while we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget shea, which was designed to accommodate both the mets & jets. it was the first stadium (i think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football. of course, with the jets gone to jersey (and a truly good football stadium), the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where, because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the action. the mets announcers--kiner & murphy in particular--have always hyped it as "beautiful shea stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104608">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104608" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to death, but i haven't seen anything in rsb yet. gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two on and his club down by a run. he stroked a line drive into the right field corner. the ball cleared the three-foot high fence and went into the crowd. darryl, racing over from right center, got to the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he missed the ball. a fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt, reached up and caught the ball. home run. now i've seen the replay several times and i have concluded that darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially behind darryl's. several dodger fans with seats in the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry. what cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off it; he was oblivious to where the fielder was playing. he was also quite exuberant as soon as he realized he had made the catch. that exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when strawberry went into a tirade at the man. all reports indicate he used a lot of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of costing the dodgers a game. shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch. dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and just relocated him to another area. in an interview after the game, lasorda blamed the fan for the loss. strawberry also went into a tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about winning. l.a. times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch. before each dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any that are in the field of play. was the fan wrong? should he have been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility of interference? or was he human and just reacting? by the way, he is a season ticket holder and on his request the dodgers have relocated his seats to another area of the stadium where future interference is others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first nine games. i question what he was doing in right center with a left-handed pull hitter up and the game on the line. had he been closer to the play, he certainly would have had a much better chance of catching the ball. but i guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104611">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104611" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 just out of curiosity, what happened to the weekly al and nl game score reports? i used to enjoy reading them throughout the summer for the last two years. inquisitively yours, joel chan <joel@math.toronto.edu>, dept. of mathematics, university of toronto toronto blue jays -- 1992 world series champs! "history: those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it. math, too." - from the comic strip "betty" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104612">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104612" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 anyone know the outcome of tonight's jays game? -home runs? -winning pitcher? eco gods at u.w.o 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104613">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104613" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i'm still catching up from spring break, but bear with me... in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played aaa ball. we certainly believe this kid is going to be very good some day, but there is really no need to rush him, especially since we have a mega- million dollar staff that is probably well served by a battery-mate who is expereienced in game calling and pitcher handling. lopez' time will come. let's give him some time in aaa. javy lopez has proven, over 1400+ ab in the minor leagues, that he is ready to play in the majors. he is *not* being rushed. players who are clearly too good for aa and play behind stiffs at the major league level are wasting their time, and may actually have a court case against major league management for keeping them, at aaa. no. maybe i need to improve my writing skills. lopez, who is very ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22 unless lopez is *me* defensively (i'm 5'7'', 165 and born to play second base :-)), he belongs in the major leagues. training. what does he have to do to earn a chance? maybe not a full time job, but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth? gee. i don't know. 17 abs sounds pretty good to me! about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather than start every day at aaa. talk about *me* as a gm... valentine isn't saying he should back up. he's saying he should be put in a position to *win* the job in the major leagues, which, imho, he would if given the opportunity. (val, if i'm misinterpreting, please let me know.) so far you have come up with two arguments against lopez: 1) he is very ordinary defensively. 2) he is young, and most players suck when they are young. the first is irrelevant. he's trying to make the majors with his bat. and the second involves seriously warped reasoning. ok. most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 (see current related posting on clayton, one of my favorites). most players benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at aaa. most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs. those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year. but the players who *are* ready are 1)the best and 2) the ones most likely to benefit from being in the majors. javy lopez is not a middle- of-the-road prospect. he's the real thing. now. again, the most important thing a player can do is hit. lopez does that miles better than olson or berryhill. if his defense is good enough for greenville, or richmond, it's good enough for atlanta. if he really was awful defensively, he would no longer be a catcher. see sprague, ed. now. the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out runners. not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans. the braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops. the center field platoon will probably hit .300. however good lopez' what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability. the kid *will* improve playing at aaa, and he probably won't being a reserve with the big club. oh, where to start... ok. first of all, solid != good. i want good players. solid is one of those words used to describe nice white guys who really aren't very good at baseball. think of it as "twg" without the caps. it's a losing strategy to say, "we have solid guys, we don't need to improve." you used it four times in that paragraph, btw. same for experienced. i might add, though, that greg olson and damon berryhill aren't exactly carter and fisk. olson has played three years, berryhill five, although 90 and 91 were a wash. the only difference, imho, between olson and valle is the supporting cast. "two big bats." hrm. i like justice, but i find mr. gant's trend disturbing. call it one and a maybe. the braves' platoon is ok, but neither player has *any* value outside of the platoon. bream vs. lh and hunter vs. rh are awful. i'll leave the thirdbase comment alone. pendleton has wasted too much bandwidth already. if the cf platoon hits .300, i'll retrace mr. likhani's midnight run down forbes, and i live in ny and la. (got that, mike?) and doesn't cox call pitches, anyway? goodness. do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential? why on earth do you people thinkthe braves made this decision? are they idiots who have built this ballclub? jeeeesh... nope. they're baseball management, possible the most short-sighted collection of people in the nation. do you not believe this goes on, mark? do you think frank thomas needed those three months in aaa in 1990? or cal eldred wasn't *really* better than ricky bones last year? and *i'm* the treasure... you're mostly polite; make defensible, if flawed cases; have wit and have, in the past, admitted being wrong. that does qualify you on r.s.b. we'll make an sdcn out of you, yet :-) -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com sheehan@aludra.usc.edu "...greg gohr, pitching more like voice: 213 743 0456 tipper gore, i'm afraid..."-- linda cohn, sportscenter 4/8/93 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104614">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104614" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting??? i happen to be a big fan of jayson stark. he is a baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer. every tuesday he writes a "week in review" column. he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week. unusual stats. he has a section called "kinerisms of the week" which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner. every year he has the lgtgah contest. that stands for "last guy to get a hit." he also writes for baseball america. that column is sort of a highlights of "week in review." if you can, check his column out sometime. he might make you laugh. might? you'd have to have no sense of humor at all not to! my favorite stuff are the zero heros, players who haven't hit homers in a long time, the lgtgah (who is that named after, i can't remember), and the box score line of the week. incidentally, i just found out that the column has been moved to sundays. i get my dad to send it to me up here in boston every week. great stuff! adam "a phaithful phillies phan" levin 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104617">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104617" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year. i expect the phillies staff, while getting the wins, would have to rank up there. luis gonzalez and derrick may are among the early league leaders, and all 6 of their bombs have come at the phils' expense. neither of them have exactly been know for their tater prowess in the past. how have the rockies been early? i know mile high has produced a ton of runs, but is it the launching pad everyone expected yet? a concerned fan of the bb ddd, adam "witness to the phillies lone loss of the season so far" levin 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104620">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104620" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the nl has). i believe one reason are the expansion teams. any thoughts? except for the fact that there seems to be a lot of high scoring al games also and i don't think the expansion teams directly affect them. k. scott day (kday@oasys.dt.navy.mil) carderock division, naval surface warfare center code 1252 bethesda, maryland 20084-5000 * "the point to remember is that what the government gives * it must first take away." * -john s. coleman 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104622">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104622" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a really strange one? yes. it was the strangest series i have ever watched. and the ending fit perfectly. kurt in atlanta hoyt@cc.gatech.edu kwh@salestech.com 70242.652@compuserve.com politics: from the greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104624">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104624" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hey guys, who is this jack morris fella ?????? only joking !!!!! but try to lighten up will ya ? the season's only just started and everyone's apoplectic. if all you statheads out there are trying to justify how morris is doing at the moment, just remember that we're talking about a very small sample size. there is a helluva long way to go, so sit back and enjoy the ride. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104625">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104625" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 (thomas miller) / 5:39 am apr 19, 1993 / does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a really strange one? yeah, it was real strange if you think the braves should be awarded the nl west title without actually having to play the games. - gary rosen i didn't say that. did you say that? wow, i can't believe that anyone would think that the braves (or any other team, for that matter) should get the title for free. what a dolt that person would be, if that was what they thought. incredible. thomas miller tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu systems support specialist ii georgia tech network services "...and i looked. and behold, a pale horse. and his name, that sat on him, was death...and hell followed with him." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104626">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104626" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 as a touter of braves prospects, all i can say is that, imo, someone on the braves roster is about to become pipped. it may not even be hunter. but i think they'll have a problem getting klesko out of the lineup once he's in. well, this may be good news. if klesko hits, i'd look for bream to be traded (if possible) or released, since bream is also a lefthander. hope klesko hits. according to the atlanta paper, bream will be the full-time first baseman with klesko used as a late-inning defensive replacement if bream is lifted for a pinch-runner. he'd have to hit a homer in his first ab (or win the game or do some other amazing thing) to be rewarded with a start so he could even attempt to push hunter or bream out of the lineup. kurt in atlanta hoyt@cc.gatech.edu kwh@salestech.com 70242.652@compuserve.com politics: from the greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104627">
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 however, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games. you are the first person ( non-mediot ) i have seen endorse this policy. i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it. i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting "hurry up!" if i cough up big bucks for a ticket, i don't mind a game that last more than 2:10. i really don't understand it. i agree with nick. what's the big deal about long games? if you want to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch. and yes, baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves. i suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games, especially when it's coming from tv people, has to something to do with advertising. probably time "wasted" in the middle of an inning, say by a batter stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves, or by a pitcher walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts, could otherwise be sold as advertising time. hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104630">
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 why did i get sucked into this? don't you guys think so? i mean, c'mon! what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball. they cause so many problems. just assuming you're serious, i guess you'd be surprised to hear that us guys don't think so. i would guess that a tiny fraction of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. i kind of doubt that even you agree with it. sheesh! i agree with you here, dave. anyone for starting rec.sports.idiots for guys like austin? no, but i am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to obvious nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who post obvious flamebait, like yourself. if someone posts something as controversial (not to mention idiotic) as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup, someone should challenge the statement. there is a school of thought that suggests that silence = consent. whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion, which r.s.b. if you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings, alibet in an edited form. it's making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post. in conclusion, if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don't read, fine. he's got the right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech. but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read, then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling. now, of course, you don't have to read any of this. and if you want to cut down on flames, then don't post flamebait! (you don't have to respond to flames, either. saves cyberspace) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104632">
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 there is a correction to the note i posted for today's update: this is how it read: note: saturday, april 20th's scores should be sent out by this coming friday. of course, last saturday was april 17th. people who requested those scores should receive them by friday the 23rd. thanks. joe hernandez joseph hernandez | rams | | /.\ ******* _|_|_ / | lakers jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu | kings | |__ | | dodgers _|_|_ | | raiders jtcent@soda.berkeley.edu | angels |____||_|_| ******* | | |___| clippers 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104633">
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 devon white has not been in the blue jays line up lately. does anybody know why he is not playing? during one of the games last week (wednesday?), both white and sprauge were not playing because they had the flu. i guess white is probably still sick. i hope white gets back in the lineup soon, watching darrin jackson play center is painful. i heard he had a strained abdominal muscle or something like that. --dan brekke-- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104635">
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 some time back in this newsgroup, i seem to recall a thread about predicting the runs a given lineup of 9 batters could be expected to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these hitters (obp, slg, avg, bat length, hat size, day-of-the-week, weather conditions, etc.). :-) anyway, was i dreaming or is there some such animal? my apologies if this has been covered recently, i probably get to read 10% of the articles posted here. no time. many thanks in advance, m. scott walsh scottwa@pogo.wv.tek.com tektronix, inc. graphics printing & imaging products ibd (503)685-3622 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104637">
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 we cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position makes to his team's victory. and since we cannot make that measure with complete confidence of objectivity, and since there is no absolutely necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement i submit to you that it is pointless. if a gm is trying to put together a winning team he might consider era, he might consider attitude, he might consider past performance in key situations. but what he is looking for is not the player that he considers the "best". the gm is looking for the player he thinks can help his team win. we cannot isolate completely, roger, but we can make a pretty good estimate. i won't claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better, robby alomar or carlos baerga, last year; the difference is too close to call. but larkin and lee? clemens and morris? the differences are too great there. in your measure of the game, why should a team that has just won it all ever replace a single player? since they are now clearly "best", how can they do better? yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team; they can always find a player a little better than one they already have. (btw, by my definitions, the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team win. i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.) baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most cases.) morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter, robby alomar, tom henke, juan guzman, john olerud, et al. clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham, luis rivera, and jeff reardon. to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components (as i do, albeit imperfectly) is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you do) clay d. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104638">
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 how about changing team names! post your choices! here i'll start: how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts> shawn - go rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104640">
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 1) the current roster of the lynx. someone on the minor league mailing list probably does. 2) home game schedule of the lynx. i do, but i don't have time to type the whole thing in (i don't mind looking up specific date ranges or individual games when i can, but there are limits). besides, this stuff is easy to find. baseball america puts out a book called the directory. it's $10(us). has every team's data and schedule in it. if i were to type in the whole scheudle, i'd just be spending a lot of time infringing on their copyright. folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list (see the signature), and folks who are tracking down team schedules should chec out the ba directory. you can order it from 800-845-2726. i find it chuq "imho" von rospach, esd support & training (dal/aux) =+= chuq@apple.com member, sfwa =+= editor, otherrealms =+= genie: mac.bigot =+= alink:chuq minor league fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (san jose giants: a/1/9) san francisco giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (the stick?not!) san jose sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (new seat: 127/tbd) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104642">
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 (eric roush) writes... no, but i am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait. nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who post obvious flamebait, like yourself. funny. i didn't realize mr. tanner brought up bob knepper v. pam postema in the first place. thought it was someone named jacobs. if someone posts something as controversial (not to mention idiotic) as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup, someone should challenge the statement. why? if a statement is truly idiotic, and is universally thought so, the challenge is a waste of panting. further, challenges that have nothing (yes, nothing) to do with *baseball* are wasting others' time. you got a problem with what bob knepper thinks? let's hear it, in some sort of categorical manner. (actually, i question whether either knepper or postema aren't "old news" at this point, although what i have read of postema's book is interesting.) there is a school of thought that suggests that silence = consent. i agree this far. whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion... sez you. if you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings, albeit in an edited form. it's making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post. that does not come out in what you say down the road, here. in conclusion, if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don't read, fine. he's got the right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech. but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read, then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling. yo. even elementary school children have had access to our postings, albeit in an edited form. you want them to hear you talk like this? don't you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think you like to do the same? or do you want them to think you're some politically correct demagogue who's oh-so sensitive? (ho-hum.) plus, you're here limiting free speech to "some obscure newsgroup that i don't read." what bs. you got a problem with what jacobs says, what knepper thinks, all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas, more and better speech. yours is the easy way out. as for knepper: ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about any darn thing that pops in their heads when a mike is shoved in front of them? you know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn't pre-prepared. they know knepper has controversial ideas about women, they pop some question about postema. (an interesting related question would be whether the two ever appeared in the same game. off the top of my head, i guess "no." if my guess is right, knepper popped off about something that had nothing to do with him -- and postema gets a book for it, and he doesn't.) now, of course, you don't have to read any of this. and if you want to cut down on flames, then don't post flamebait! (you don't have to respond to flames, either. saves cyberspace) now, why didn't *i* think of that? :-) :-) :-) "i can play me better than anyone. there's only one of me." - barry bonds, on playing himself in two movies 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104644">
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 a reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games. i for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won't get back in the box. a "reasonable" umpire would have recognized that ron gant was disturbed with the call. a "reasonable" umpire would have realized that there was a 1-run game in progress, with two outs in the ninth. what ron gant did was try to regain his composure. what a "normal" baseball player would have done would have been to get into a heated argument with the umpire, and since you can't argue balls and strikes, he would have been ejected from the game. ron gant, by trying to avoid such a conflict, was penalized for showing some restraint. incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as gant requested. if the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike, and gant would not have been so upset. if the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help. finally, the entire game was pretty much a mockery of the so-called efforts to "speed up the game." the game was played very quickly, it was just at 2 hours when the stuff happened in the ninth, and the only delays in the entire game had been *the result* of actions by the umpires (other than deion having to clean garbage off the field). @econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke. s to my correspondents: my email has been changed. e l my new address is: fls@econ.duke.edu d f if mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu u 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104646">
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 you want to speed up ballgames? 1. enforce the two minutes between innings. as it is, many fields are allowing three minutes between them. fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to, thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game. two minutes, last out to first pitch, or a ball is called. 2. don't grant time to batters just because they want it. they may get pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike. 3. mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches (the current rule is too lenient), and then enforce it. fifteen seconds is more than enough time. if the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball, and restart the clock. baseball games take about 2:51 in the nl, and just a shade under 3 hours in the al. that's just too damn long. i don't like to play in 3 hour games, much less watch a game for that long. my butt falls asleep, and if i'm watching on tv, i'll channel surf between pitches, catching colorized versions of mr. ed, leave it to beaver, and "those wacky nieporents" on nick at nite. * gary huckabay * "you think that's loud enough, a$$hole?" * * "movie rights * "well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir, * * available thru * i'd be happy to turn it up for you. i didn't * * ted frank." * know that many people your age liked king's x." * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104649">
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 [deleted] someone told me this game started at 10:05 cdt. is this true??/ who in their right mind would go to a game on monday at 11am???? keep in mind this was in massachussetts. today was patriots day, a state holiday. i think it might be a floating holiday, but given that the marathon also happens the same day, most people don't go in. #include <std_disclaimer.h> dan s. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104650">
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 gary varsho halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there. wait a minute; i could swear that varsho is white. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104652">
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 uh, bill james doesn't sell statistics. he sells books with statistics, but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias, stats, howe, baseball workshop etc. are. bill james is, however, very closely tied to stats. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104653">
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 the facts are that morris |> has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a ws winning club. |> clemens hasn't. what *does* it take to play on a ws winning club? we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris' contribu- tion from the rest of the team's. there is only one way of determin- ing "best" in baseball. and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game. each game determines which *team* is the best that day. at the end of the season, the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division. the playoffs determine the best of the best. but the point is that the only decision making pro- cess used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re- lates to the *teams*. not the individual players. there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances. and that is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game. to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab- solutely that player a's team would have played better with player b in their lineup. sheer speculation. impossible to ascertain. if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as a criteria, then fine. but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual's contribution to winning the ws - because that is the only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the context of base- ball. so until you can prove that clemens contributes to a ws cham- pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub- jective and is mere opinion. i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon. the fact is that morris didn't "win" any ballgames, toronto did, in spite of morris' "contribution". this has been explained to you exactly. the jays won with morris pitching. and boston wins with clemens pitching. i am not saying that morris is better than clemens. i am saying that individual comparisons between players are totally meaningless and that anyone claiming that clemens is better based on his era has missed the point of what baseball is all about. many, many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it. you don't have to be rude. you are completely consumed by the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - ignoratio elenchi. i am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings (although i have, tongue in cheek, claimed that in the past). i am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual's performance from that of his team's for the purpose of comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per- the stats are a nice hobby and that's about it. there is no new knowledge being produced. so when a poster claims that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings, the poster is no more nor less incorrect than the rest of you baying hounds. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104655">
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 [argument over "reasonable" players and umpires deleted] incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as gant requested. if the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike, and gant would not have been so upset. if the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help. yes, but the baseball rules say you can only appeal a ball and not a strike. there was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal. once he called it a strike the call could not be changed. i thought that the umpire did the right thing. pablo iglesias pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104656">
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 |> in article <1993apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, |> [...] however, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the |> games. you are the first person ( non-mediot ) i have seen endorse |> this policy. i have no problem with the length of games at all and |> am tired of the espn crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about |> it. i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking |> at their watches and shouting "hurry up!" if i cough up big bucks for a |> ticket, i don't mind a game that last more than 2:10. i really don't |> understand it. major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans (i.e. the football crowd). (-: invariably, all the arguments from people who don't like to watch baseball on t.v. say the same thing: the games are too long and too boring. baseball is trying to find a way to shorten the games for wider t.v. appeal. if you look at it, though, baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games. the difference is that there is "more action" in that duration in football games. perhaps if there were "more action" in baseball games, you would get more of those fans to tune in. anyway, coming up with a solution to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult. [on soapbox] yet another reason to get a commisioner now since it's obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in nebraska. [off soapbox] steve conroy | conroy@terminus.saic.com | "i'm gone, man - solid gone! science applications | -baloo international corporation | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104657">
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 you want to speed up ballgames? 1. enforce the two minutes between innings. as it is, many fields are allowing three minutes between them. fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to, thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game. two minutes, last out to first pitch, or a ball is called. 2. don't grant time to batters just because they want it. they may get pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike. 3. mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches (the current rule is too lenient), and then enforce it. fifteen seconds is more than enough time. if the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball, and restart the clock. i've only ever seen this called once. back around 1979-1980. i think that steve carlton was pitching. on the other hand, i am not sure how much effect this would have. it seems that most of the time lost is when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this. i have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the game. let's be serious. the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes. does he really need 8 more pitches? pablo iglesias pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104660">
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 i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him. however, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games. you are the first person ( non-mediot ) i have seen endorse this policy. i wholeheartedly endorse it. i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it. i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting "hurry up!" if i cough up big bucks for a ticket, i don't mind a game that last more than 2:10. i really don't understand it. haven't been to many a's games, have you? seriously, i don't mind a baseball game that lasts a long time if it lasts a long time because there is good baseball being played. however, i don't like 3-2 games that take 3+ hours, because there's a lot of dead time going on in that game. i don't find anything exciting about watching batter or pitcher wander around between pitches, or watching the catcher make a slow walk to the mound, or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason (whitey herzog used to be the master of this; the game could be way out of reach, and he'd still be making switches for platoon advantage). i want to see the game, not people standing around. i don't really enjoy watching nfl football games in person, for example, because there's so much dead time (you don't really notice how much dead time there is if you watch it on television, because they're busy showing you replays). i don't like that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game (the ncaa has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next year: they're going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next year, and they're going to a 35 second clock). there's also a difference in how tolerant i am of long games if i'm watching them on the tube, and if i'm going there in person. for me, going to an a's game has become a major commitment of time, one that i'm not willing to make that often: the length of their games is costing the a's revenue from me. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104662">
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 hispanic magazine(april 1993) had a couple of interesting articles about hispanic players including its hispanic all-star team. some of the major points are: npr's morning edition aired a report this morning (4/19) on hispanic/latin american players in mlb and how they have many of the same problems faced by black/negro/african american players when they first entered the league. however, although baseball has adjusted to the presence of black players, many hispanic players still labor under the stereotype of being "fireballs, hot blooded, flashy". the report also emphasised that despite the rantings (my word) of jessie jackson about baseballs discrimination against black players in its upper echelons, baseball has actually done much better by black players than hispanic players. another interesting point was the language barrier problem. the reporter elaborated on an interview with ruben sierra which he gave in spanish to a spanish speaking newspaper reporter with the fact that there are maybe 2 major baseball writers that speak spanish, despite the fact that spanish is one of (if not the) easiest languages to learn, so easy that the author cormac mccarthy learned spanish at age 50 in order to research his book, _all the pretty horses_. yet, few mlb organizations employ spanish speaking personel, one of the exceptions being the oakland a's. another point: nearly 90% of latin american players have some african blood. yet, most report that they'd never really felt black until playing ball in the us. ironically enough, it is the early presence of latin american baseball players in the major leagues that support the idea that baseball was integrated before the arrival of jackie robinson, as many "light black" or "brown", latin americans were incorporated into baseball. /s "i did not know the cure for the disease ------------------- of images, but i believed in the healing | sandra vigil | power of words and stories." | vigil@esca.com | - until the end of the world ------------------- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104665">
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 (btw, by my definitions, the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team win. i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.) well then given your definition of "best" is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs? no. i do not find this conceivable. i also cannot conceive of the possibility that there is any hypothetical team which morris would help more than clemens. would griffin then be better than larkin? given your premise, yes. but you are alone in your ability to conceive of that premise. 
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 i am finding the volume of stuff on rec.sport.baseball overwhelming -- ca. 200 posts/day. an effect of this is that a backlog builds up, and many posts get dumped from my system. i could probably fix that--but don't have the time to read them all in any event. my guess is that mine is a common problem. i have some ideas that would help: 1. each person generally post no more than one article/day. 2. limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced in posts. 3. don't post mindless `woofs,' or `anti-woofs,' e.g. "the jays are best!" or "the jays suck." 4. don't respond to mindless posts, e.g. "jack morris is a better pitcher than frank viola because he's won a world series." i know that you can use the `n' key to get by these posts, but they bump interesting posts from my disk. 5. use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier to read name: jim rising mail: dept. zoology, univ. toronto, toronto, ontario, canada m5s 1a1 uucp: uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising bitnet: rising@zoo.utoronto.ca 
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 i always thought that a reasonable means of measuring value between players was to attempt to determine if a team would trade one for the major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age. even if morris were performing as well as clemens right now, and were likely to this season, nobody would trade clemens for morris straight up because clemens has more of his career left. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104670">
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 don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball.....always has been.....always will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104673">
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 : i have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the : game. let's be serious. the relief pitcher has normally been : throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes. does he really need 8 : more pitches? if the relief pitcher didn't get 8 pitches, there wouldn't be enough time to: 1) play "hit the road jack" 2) the iron city relief pitcher commercial 3) the announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the previous one from the game 4) a detailed biography, both personal and statistical, of the new guy throwing his 8 pitches. 5) get really cool super-slo-mo pictures for diamond vision to put up by said pitchers name and stats! 
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 i suppose a foul ball machine (like brett butler) is pretty valuable, but i'd rather watch (and root for) the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball. and i'd rather watch (and root for) a team that scores lots of runs and wins games. of course, i'm rooting for the rockies and andres anyway. but that's for irrational hometown reaons. i also root for frank thomas. :) david paschich 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104676">
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 hey valentine, i don't see boston with any world series rings on their yah. so? damn, morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his he certainly didn't earn his last one. *how* many games did he blow in the world series? all of the ones he started? he certainly did earn it! he was a valuable member of the blue jay team. not particularly *in* the world series. during the season, he was probably more valuable than, say, putting olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he *was* valuable in getting them there. in the postseason, he sucked dirty canal water through a straw. the jays won *in spite* of morris much more than *because of* him. therefore, i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing. oh, yes. definitely. therefore morris is better than clemens. your definition of "better" refers to some measurement on a scale that has nothing to do with winning ws rings. umm, roger? return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago, where the poster valentine was replying to used # of ws rings as a measure of better. the concept is called "context", and you should really become familiar with it someday. the facts are that morris has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a ws winning club. clemens hasn't. unless this transaltes to "clemens hasn't gone into lou gorman's office with a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to the jays," i'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it. you can go on about what clemens has done in the past and claim that he is "better" than morris if you want to. but the facts are that morris has shown us that he can win and clemens hasn't. what on earth does this mean? over their careers, clemens has "won" 68% of the games he's started, morris 58%. per year, clemens has averaged nearly 17 wins, morris just under 15. would you grant the proposition that preventing the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning a game? if so, then consider that clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. morris allows nearly a run more per nine innings. in fact, jack morris has never in his career had an era for a single year as good as clemens' career era. but i forget, in the maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance to buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had morris been on the sox, it would have been a routine groundout, right? whether or not clemens is better by your standard of measurement is totally meaningless. the object of the game is not to compile high figures in statistics that you have chosen to feel are important. the object of the game is to contribute to ws victories. but this has been patiently explained to you many, many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it. speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. your continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have spent a few too many games in goal without a mask. don't give me that shit. if boston had alomar, olerud, henke, and ward while toronto had rivera, jack clark, jeff reardon, things would have looked a little different last fall. give credit where credit is due. this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick. yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too...forget about what didn't happen and open your eyes, for once, and look out there and see what is really happening. forget about how morris "shouldn't" have won 21 with an era over 4. when morris pitched, last year, the jays won. stop crying about it and get on with life. no one is crying; the jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win at least the al east. they performed well in two short series and won the world series, and i congratulate them for it. as a red sox fan, i hope they keep morris. i was happy when they picked up stewart, and elated when they traded for darrin jackson. you see, unless you believe in some mystical link between morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. luck runs out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992, gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16. seriously, roger, i'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference between the 1982 morris and the 1992 morris. which one was a better pitcher, and why? did morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years? if so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with minnesota with an era over half a run lower than 1992? mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com don't be humble, you're not that great. 
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 nl: chicago wait til next years new york bunch of egos with no chemistrys philedelphia overacheivers until mitch williams blows games pittsburg cheapskates montreal canadiens (love that name!) st. louis cardinals (how boring!) miami marlins (try telling tampa-stpete that the marlins are florida's) san diego she's going down men and children firsters los angeles disables listers san francisco get past number five and you are fines cincinatti underacheivers atlanta bills colorado pitching is 10% of baseballers houston astonomicals al: new york steinbrenners boston wow, we're in firsters cleveland good hit no pitchers detroit lions (hey, they score 20 every game also!) toronto god does jack morris stinkers baltimore we have a great park and a bankrupt owners milwaukee don't drink the water drink the beer insteaders kansas city oh god not againers oakland gezz did the eck blow a saves texas bashers california we won't win but we'll sure as hell tryers seattle griffeys chicago we''l find a way to lose agains minnesota marshmallow domers msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu go cubs!!! "one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - geddy lee 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104681">
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 how about changing team names! post your choices! here i'll start: how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn - go rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104683">
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 it sure does. and it all depends on the definition that you use for "better". yours is based on what could have been and mine is based on what really well, actually, most of ours is based on what really happened and yours is based on some fantasy of how it happened. but that's ok, i understand you have a hockey background. stats like "plus/minus" make rbi look good. is it viola's fault that boston had no offense? is it *because* of morris that the blue jays had such a strong offense? don't tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs. this is the perfect example of your problem. you are isolating viola's contribution from the rest of the team's efforts. you can only do this if you can say for sure what the team would have done without viola. only then can you compare. but you cannot know how the team would have done without viola. your analysis is fallacious. ok, how about a straigh answer, then. here's a very simele question to which i'm sure a fair number of us are very interesed in the answer to. please answer yes or no, roger: can a pitcher cause the offensive players on his team to score more runs? al only, please. for anyone else following along, it is a well-known and demonstrable fact that a team's win-loss record is closely related to the number of runs the team scores and the number the team allows. it's not a definite, hard-and-fast function, but there is definitely a correlation. in fact, as a rule of thumb, if teams a and b both score x runs and team a allows y runs, for every 10 runs fewer than y that team b allows, it will win another game. so, for instance, if we look at the 1991 toronto blue jays, we find that they scored 780 runs and allowed 682, of which morris allowed 114. all other things being equal, if frank viola, with his 3.44 era had replaced jack morris for the 240.2 innings morris threw (plausible, since viola threw 238 for boston), the "red jays" would have allowed about 15 fewer runs, or enough for 1-2 more wins. now, that doesn't take into account that viola pitched half his innings in fenway, which is a harder park to pitch in (particularly for a lefthander) than skydome. so, um, roger. unless you really do believe that a pitcher can somehow affect the number of runs his team scores, could you enlighten us to the fallacy in this analysis? clearly, it would be foolhardy to claim that viola would necessarily have put up a 3.44 if he had been on the jay last year, but that is not the claim. we look at what the actual performances were and evaluate viola's as better than morris' in the sense that "had morris performed as viola did, his team would have been better off." it takes an open mind to really truly understand what is happening out here in the real world guys. this is true, but not so open that your brain falls out. mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com computer...if you don't open that exit hatch this moment i shall zap straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large ax. got - zaphod beeblebrox 
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 i have posted two new postings on the net, since i discovered how to use it, and both times i received redicule for predicting the red sox as high as third in the al east. id like to hear why it is people dont think the sox can be as high as third this year. here are some of my observations: well, had you been a bit less exuberant in both the tone and substance of your predictions, the responses would probably have been a bit more measured. be that as it may.... 1. roger and frank are in vintage form, and the sox are rresponding to them. clemens is always in this form, and viola isn't really performing beyond what might reasonably have been expected. how do you know that the sox are responding to them, and not to al bumbry, hobson, or (my most likely suspect) new hitting coach mike easler? i certainly am more likely to give easler credit for mo vaughhn's hot start than clemens or viola. 2. greenwell is hitting as he did before his injuries. this was the optimistic scenario, but not unreasonably so. he hasn't shown much power yet, though. 3. dawson is providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him. how can you tell that dawson is providing the leadership? perhaps it's calderon? perhaps it's clemens and viola? maybe hobson is finally showing those people skills he was supposed to have when they hired him. or maybe it's all a myth. and dawson has been hitting reasonably well, but not as well as greenwell, vaughn, cooper, or fletcher. 4. russell is finishing well. in three games. why don't we look at this one again in, say, july? 5. fletcher is hitting well as a leadoff hitter. a bit better than could reasonably have been expected. but don't forget that zupcic looked like wade boggs lite for about 75 ab's last year. beware of small sample sizes. still, if fletcher hits as well as he did last year he'd be a great improvement over any sox leadoff hitter from last year. be aware that his career numbers seem to indicate that he puts up good numbers as long as he doesn't have to make more than 300 ab or so in a year. 6. cooper is hitting well (i think he'll be better then boggs in the field and just as good at the plate) ummm...sorry, no. i can buy the "in the field" part, and i think he'll be better at the plate than the 1992 boggs, but in general cooper, while he'll be a pretty good hitter, couldn't carry boggs' jockstrap. with a little luck, he could be the fourth or fifth best 3b in the al (martinez, boggs, ventura, and palmer will all be better). if the sox pitch like last year (they have a better pitchiong staff, now) and hit like they are so far, they coiuld run away with thee division. but since i think that their hitting and pitching may not be up to the challenge of running away with the division, i think that they win be over .500 and at least third if not second or first. see, here is where you make that quick left turn off into the aether. .500 is plausible, third is not unlikely, but phrases like "could run away with the division" are likely to get you a visit from the men in the white coats. it's not really clear that their staff is better than last year. if russell does well, darwin doesn't go on the dl, and hesketh doesn't pitch just barely well enough to avoid losing his spot in the rotation, they could be better. on the other hand, if hesketh pitches miserably and they're too stupid to move him to the pen and bring up conroy or somebody, fossas continues to pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue he's a lefty, and russell explodes they could be pretty bad. mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com god is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh. - mark twain 
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 i had heard the rumors about la, cin, hou, and sd all being interested in mark davis, so it doesn't surprise me that a team had to give up something and cash to actually get him. lynch "mob" ps. anyone else draft this guy? i really did and got a loud cry of "when will you ever give up on this guy" :-) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104692">
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 later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter. what the hell is he thinking. didn't alicea get a hit, though? see y'all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu 
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 that's very true. i live in richmond, home of the aaa richmond braves, and they have this guy ryan klesko who hit 17 hr's at home last year. now that doesn't sound like a whole lot, but the way the "diamond" is built, home runs are a rarity. in fact, ron gant, brian hunter and david justice all proved they could hit in richmond. when they were sent to the majors, they never came back. if you can hit in richmond, you can hit anywhere. so far, after beating scranton (phillies) 9-0 in the first game, the best team in aaa history has been rather underwhelming. too many expectations i guess. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104696">
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 me, too... rbi are a worthless stat. of course, so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases, so batting average, slugging and obp out, too. hmmm... i guess homers would not count then, either. my point? rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. and no stat (or lack of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. maybe no stat can tell me, either, but some people are... i just know it!!! 8) but why would you want to use rbi? rbi is an attempt to measure is some combination of clutch hitting and power hitting. if you believe in clutch hitting, then look at how the guy hit with risp. if you want to see how good of a slugger he is, then look at his slugging average. in terms of evaluating players, rbi totals are better than nothing. but why use them when so many better stats are out there? david frohardt-lane dfl@math.wayne.edu go tigers, lions, pistons, red wings and wolverines !!!!!!!!!! 
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 the royals are darkness. they are the void of our time. when they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front from canada. they are a humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live. they are utterly and completely other than that, i guess they're ok. you must not be old enough to remember the a's in kc! tim evans | e.i. du pont de nemours & co. tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com | experimental station (302) 695-9353/7395 | p.o. box 80357 evanstk at a1 at esvax | wilmington, delaware 19880-0357 
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 npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy (name possibly garbled by me), an official historian for the cia. she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary (which i know from nothing but which sounds good). she said that among other things, berg was the principal spy for the oss (cia's wwii precursor) spying on axis atomic programs, because of his physics background and language skills. she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland, and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him). (i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program, but i don't know how reliable this is.) unfortunately, npr didn't mention any kind of a book she's writing -- i'd certainly buy it. (in case you're wondering about baseball relevance, berg was a longtime mlb backup catcher. he was a member of an mlb all-star team that toured japan in 1934, presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because he was one of the few americans, much less mlb players, who spoke japanese. photos he took of tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids, according to mccarthy.) dave mb 
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 [stuff about ron gant incident deleted] a reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games. i for one am glad to see this happen, (!!!!) i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him. however, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games. you are the first person ( non-mediot ) i have seen endorse this policy. i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it. i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting "hurry up!" if i cough up big bucks for a ticket, i don't mind a game that last more than 2:10. i really don't understand it. games are longer now for several reasons: more pitching changes, more basestealing ( and throws to first ), etc...i think a very small factor is the increased time it takes jose canseco/ deion sanders/ [insert fancy showboat ballplayer here] to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the batter's box. my impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this an issue because they like shorter games - they get to head back to hotel bar, eat steaks, get drunk, tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase stewardesses around the bar. sure they want the game over with. print journalists have a slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games: they have deadlines. the espn guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy - they constantly harp on this - primarily because they often have to work late when the game goes longer than 2:30. maybe i am just a ne'er-do-well with nothing better to do, but i would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you. as a parenthetical note, it seems the league is in any case fighting a losing battle this year. the increased offense thus far will certainly spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly. nick flynn 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104703">
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 tim shippert recently posted summaries of last year's defensive average stats in terms of the linear weights estimated run-value of defensive performances, compared to league average. i've combined those with my position-adjusted mlv numbers to come up with first-approximation total run values for players last year. we can use these as a springboard for reconsideration of the mvp award. major caveats: these numbers include no defensive park adjustment, so if san diego really is just a question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the infield, that will cause some inaccuracies. the offensive numbers are position-adjusted, but not park adjusted, so we have to deflate some and inflate others to be fair. finally, we still don't know what to do about catchers, and i have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions of tony phillips and bip roberts. having said that, there are still some surprises. let's look national league first. all numbers in total runs contributed over the season. player offense defense total sandberg 44 32 76 bonds 67 3 70 walker 26 26 52 justice 14 33 47 daulton 44 ?? 44+? larkin 36 4 40 grace 13 27 40 as i see it, these are the legitimate mvp candidates from last season. if you deflate sandberg's offense a wee bit for playing in wrigley, you get essentially a dead heat. had bonds been his usual defensive self, it wouldn't have been close, but that apparently wasn't the case. darren daulton needs 22 or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference, and i couldn't tell you whether that's easy or impossible. a good case could be made for any of sandberg, bonds, or daulton as top dude. my personal vote: bonds, sandberg, daulton, walker, justice. in the american league: player offense defense total ventura 22 34 56 martinez 47 -1 46 b. anderson 21 25 46 thomas 47 -5 42 r. henderson 25 16 41 raines 17 23 40 tettleton 33 ?? 33+? ok, let's see a show of hands: how many of you picked robin ventura as top player in the al last year? i certainly didn't, but i'd have a hard time arguing against him at this point. yes, i know these numbers are only approximate, but that's a big gap between him and the #2 guy. also, those of you who thought rickey henderson stank last year are out of your minds. once again, there's a catcher in the ointment. if calling a game is as important as it might be, 23 runs is easy to make up (or give away). take a guess, folks; i don't think we can do any better than that. my personal vote (excluding pitchers): ventura, tettleton, anderson, martinez, henderson. i'm a big frank thomas fan, but i have to admit to a bias in favor of balanced offensive/defensive contribution, which should have a higher leverage in w/l record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with negative defense. for the record: carlos baerga 27 5 32 roberto alomar 35 -2 33 forget it; it's a wash. let me also take this opportunity to admit that i was grossly wrong regarding don mattingly's defense this past season. don recovered brilliantly from his weak '90 and '91 to end up with mattingly -1 17 16 runs which is clearly an above-average first baseman. however, it's still 18 runs behind mark mcgwire, 26 runs behind frank thomas, and 7 runs behind john olerud. on the other hand, it's ahead of rafael palmeiro, cecil fielder, and every other al first baseman not yet mentioned. david m. tate (dtate+@pitt.edu) | greetings, sir, with bat not quick member iie, orsa, tims, sabr | hands not soft, eye not discerning | and in denver they call you a slugger? "the big catullus" galarraga | and compare you to my own mattingly!? 
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 ok, there are three balls on this batter. the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter. is that a walk or a hit by pitch? bob vesterman. a hbp, but it reminds of my favorite (apochryphal ? sp ?) don drysdale story. when ordered to intentionally walk a batter who had hot-dogged on him in two previous at-bats, drysdale reared back with the first pitch and drilled him right in the ribs. his manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled "what did you do that for ?" drysdale growled back, "what are you complaining for ? i saved you three pitches !" incidentally, if this is true, i'd love to know the other people involved. ted kury | "one man stands... and the wall, cracks... and the wall, suny at buffalo | cracks... and the wall, cracks... and the wall comes dept. of economics | crumbling down." - anthrax 
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 ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (gary built like villanova huckabay) said: baseball games take about 2:51 in the nl, and just a shade under 3 hours in the al. that's just too damn long. i don't like to play in 3 hour games, much less watch a game for that long. my butt falls asleep, and if i'm watching on tv, i'll channel surf between pitches, catching colorized versions of mr. ed, leave it to beaver, and "those wacky nieporents" on nick at nite. but, gary, for certain sofa tubers like myself, this is an advantage. i can watch the pirates on kbl, the mets on wwor, the braves on tbs, and the mediots on espn at the same time, without missing anything. (if something impressive happens, i'll catch the replay :-) ). so, i see (essentially) 4 games in 3 hours, instead of 1 game in 2 hours. what a deal! (insert smileys as desired...) david m. tate (dtate+@pitt.edu) | greetings, sir, with bat not quick member iie, orsa, tims, sabr | hands not soft, eye not discerning | and in denver they call you a slugger? "the big catullus" galarraga | and compare you to my own mattingly!? 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104708" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris (given his run support)? how about an average ml pitcher? i can't believe that morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance ... i know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on morris, but let's give credit where credit is due. it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris. last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of august, and all the other starters were being shelled, and milwaukee was making a charge, morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (i can't remember exactly). also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save the bullpen every fifth day. if he didn't help us win the al east, forget about the pennent and the world series. his run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was stottlemyer's (5.90 runs) and he won only 12 games. i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of 6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit. he pitched only as good as he needed to be. when he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out" (i hate this expression!). an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down. but morris, being a veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball. by saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra (i hate this too!) when the game was on the line. yes morris is crapping out big time this year, but let's not change history to suit the present. btw, i think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more can he be embarrassed? from where i sit, i'll let others have the excellent players - i'll settle for good enough and the ring :-) ditto! joe leonard jle@world.std.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104710">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104710" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 btw, what is the story with brian hunter? is he in the dog house? paul collacchi no, brian's hurt. his hand i think. he started saturday's game but was taken out. it's far too early to populate the dog house, although bedrock was seen with a milkbone. "read that to memory and process it!" - russell earnest georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4 arpa: russell.earnest@housing.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104711">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104711" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy (name possibly garbled by me), an official historian for the cia. she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary (which i know from nothing but which sounds good). she said that among other things, berg was the principal spy for the oss (cia's wwii precursor) spying on axis atomic programs, because of his physics background and language skills. she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland, and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him). (i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program, but i don't know how reliable this is.) unfortunately, npr didn't mention any kind of a book she's writing -- i'd certainly buy it. dave mb there is a great book out called "they also served" which is about the ballplayers during wwii. there is some info on berg in there. it also has info on pete gray (one armed outfielder) and other players of the era. because of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the draft for medical reasons. there are some very interesting stories in the book. it is very well written and i would suggest reading it to anyone with an interest in baseball. rob koffler |you live day to day and rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu| |dream about tomorrow --don henley | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104715">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104715" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 ok, ok, ok. first, my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request, but here goes anyhow: i'm *very* interested in finding out how i might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year. my very aged folks live about 50 miles away and i know it would be a great thing for them to attend the game. i went with them, and my grandfather who got me into baseball as a small child, to the all star game in dc many years ago. although i'm now in the sf bay area, i'd *love* to be able to treat my folks to this game; it's absolutely the last chance they'd ever have to attend this g ame locally. any info would be greatly appreciated!!!! mary cole mcole@informix.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104720">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104720" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 likewise, i would love to know about a cardinals mailing list. please e-mail me if you have any information. thanks a lot. les poe poe@husc.harvard.edu this is the fifth request to find out about a cardinals mailing list. it looks like one does not exist. if anyone has the initiative, creating a list might be a worthwhile activity. sam passer 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104723">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104723" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the *real* way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on *both* teams: [...details deleted...] i suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for. offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says "i want 5% of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses"... oh, great. we fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games that we don't want to see sped up. terrific. oh. i forgot. checking off that box to finance presidential campaigns doesn't cost us taxpayers anything. do you believe in the tooth fairy, too? -- the beastmaster (sorry. i hate to be so sarcastic on such a beautiful day.) mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104725">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104725" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> there is absolutely, positively, quite verifiably, no causation that runs |> from salaries to ticket prices. the two are separable decisions. the |> owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs; they raise ticket prices |> because demand for seats has risen. (wish i had bold type for that "no".) |> for more evidence, please come to my intro to econ course, somewhere around |> lecture four: sunk costs, opportunity costs, marginal costs. right on. ticket prices are set to maximize revenue. period. for an excellent discussion on how this works, see gerald scully's book of a couple of years back, titled (i think) "the business of baseball". we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula@koufax.cv.hp.com paul andresen hewlett-packard (503)-750-3511 home: 3006 nw mckinley corvallis, or 97330 (503)-752-8424 a sabr member since 1979 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104727">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104727" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by usa today that should give scores for "last night's" games. can some kind soul e-mail me that address? if anyone knows of such a site could they please send it to me also. -acsddc@umassd.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104731">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104731" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 that he'd been thrown out. and gant had a legitimate beef about the 1-0 pitch that was called a strike. a reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation. a reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games. i for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won't get back in the box. while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around, gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately. as soon as he stepped out, hirschbeck told him to get back in the box. now, gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches. the only reason he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call. i expect his concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation i imagine it's best to be as calm as possible. contributing factors would be gant's bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the braves long scoring now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there. you know the umpire is going to do something (call for a strike, throw you out, etc.). gant was wrong. but hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view. aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem. gant had a reason to want some time (disputed strike call). gant hadn't been wasting time all game. the game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old. the score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position. is there *any* reason hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut gant a little slack? for no discernible constructive reason, hirschbeck disrupted the game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key situation. did he have a date to get to? and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game. dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104734">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104734" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 being an old time cardinal fan-now relocated to the nva area-i can recall that harry was not at all "popular" with old man busch, who, as i understand it, fired him and kicked him out of st. louis. i am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly not "enraptured" by ole harry. bern o'dell-- i grew up listening to harry carey call the cardinals' games and really liked him--then. but, as i recall, he was fired because he was too critical (read: honest) when he was announcing. he dared to point out the cards' miscues and such. at least, this is what i remember from when i was a kid. kay jones 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104735">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104735" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 being an old time cardinal fan-now relocated to the nva area-i can recall that harry was not at all "popular" with old man busch, who, as i understand it, fired him and kicked him out of st. louis. i am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly not "enraptured" by ole harry. but maybe his wife was :-) i don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different people (totally unrelated) have said harry was 'relieved' of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch's wife. judgement is left to the individual, cuz i sure don't claim to be an impeachable source in this case. dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays - do it again in '93 kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu new .. quotes out of context! "not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - stephen lawrence 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104736">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104736" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the reason i bothered doing this dr stuff was to see if i could determine the answer to the age-old question: "is jeff blauser more valuable than rafael belliard". well, it looks like, just as doug trumped tim, beating him to the net with his defensive analyses, so tim has gotten in ahead of me. the way i was doing it was a little different. being me, of course, i used equivalent averages to work out how many runs a player was worth, and i calculated both rate of performance (fielding equivalent average) and total performance (fielding equivalent runs). but i compared, not to the average player, but the replacement player, and here's why: because the positional adjustment comes built in to the system. in the al of 1992, the average ss is 32.9 runs above replacement (rar); cf, 31.6; 2b, 28.8; 3b, 26.3; lf, 26.0; rf, 24.6; 1b, 16.9. we may quibble with the exact numbers, but the order looks substantially right. in the equivalent average, i have always set league average to .235. i had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of .180; the name of that replacement level hitter, often as not, is "billy ripken". i decided to let the replacement level fielder be the same distance from .235 as .180, but in the opposite direction as i have set it up; that makes for an eqa of .280. (yes, i can add. runs are proportional to eqa squared; the difference between 180 squared and 235 squared equals the difference to 279 squared, and i rounded off for simplicity). an all-replacement fielding team would have: randy milligan at first (.282), willie randolph (.269) at second, leo gomez (.279) at third, walt weiss (.269) at short, kevin bass (.271) in left, hojo (.257) in center, and eric anthony (.277) in right. ugh. so, the total number of rar for a player is the sum of his batting and fielding rar. i can rate them by total rar, or rar per some number of batting outs, like 400. an average player has a total rar of about 55, 30 batting, 25 fielding. total rar (bat/field) 1. bonds 152 (124/28) ventura 124 (66/58) 2. sandberg 143 (88/55) thomas 122 (110/12) 3. van slyke 122 (91/31) anderson 109 (75/34) 4. grace 114 (70/44) raines 100 (68/32) 5. lankford 111 (76/35) puckett 98 (76/22) 6. pendleton 108 (71/37) alomar 98 (75/23) 7. finley 104 (70/34) martinez e 97 (81/16) 8. bagwell 101 (73/28) mack 93 (70/23) 9. butler 96 (74/22) mcgwire 93 (79/14) 10 sheffield 96 (85/11) griffey 92 (70/22) 11 larkin 96 (65/31) devereaux 89 (56/34) 12 grissom 95 (57/38) henderson 88 (66/23) 13 walker 94 (61/33) listach 87 (50/37) 14 justice 92 (52/40) lofton 85 (46/39) 15 w. clark 91 (73/18) baerga 83 (55/28) 16 kruk 82 (78/ 4) d. white 79 (39/40) 17 o. smith 80 (46/34) palmeiro 76 (54/22) 18 gwynn 80 (47/33) sierra 76 (52/24) 19 hollins 80 (68/12) carter 73 (57/17) 20 j. bell 79 (42/37) gonzalez 73 (60/13) notable entries in a per-400 batting out rating, nl: top 7 are bonds, 177, lf; sandberg, 130, 2b; van slyke, 114, cf; grace, 107, 1b; larkin, 102, ss; justice, 99, rf; sheffield, 99, 3b. one at each position measured! mcgriff, despite +85 batting rar, fifth in league, finishes out of the top 20 due to a -13 in fielding. last by position: galarraga 39, stillwell -10, hansen 30, belliard 30 (blauser gad a 69, 3rd in league), may 43, dascenzo 34, anthony 38. in the al, much-maligned rickey henderson was worth 120, second only to frank thomas' 124; ventura edges edgar at third, 116-111; grebeck rates a potent 102!; griffey edges puckett as top cf, 93-90; listach nudges out lofton among rookies, 82-80. and alomar clearly outpoints baerga, 97-73. last by position: segui 10, sojo 29, palmer 22, lewis 31, polonia 40, cuyler 26, v. hayes 39. all for now. clay d. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104740">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104740" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 how about changing team names! post your choices! here i'll start: how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn - go rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! baltimore baseblazers? where the hell did you come up with that? the orioles are not a base-stealing team except for anderson. besides we would never call them anything but the baltimore orioles. why? the ballpark has all these orthologically (spelling error?) correct baltimore orioles all over the place. i bet you thought the bird is just an oriole. it's not. the bird was named after lord baltimore when maryland was founded. they're called baltimore orioles. but the post is just a joke so why do i care what a non-o's fan thinks of us? but i still wonder where baseblazers came from. san diego padres, now there's a name that needs to be changed. how is padre being used? as "father" ie priest or "father" ie parents? |admiral steve c. liu internet address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu| |1993 world champions - baltimore orioles - why not? - series in the yards| | 1992-1993 stanley cup champions - washington capitals | |*****the bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed!****| | this sig has been brought to you by... frungy! the sport of kings! | |"my god man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" dr. mccoy| 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104742">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104742" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 kubey@sgi.com (ken kubey) said: and finally, i'd like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them, than because they have a great "eye" i'm not sure. i used to think this was true, but more and more i'm becoming convinced that it's the other way around: among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard, the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it a lot. let's break down the four basic categories of hitter, according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk a lot: power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay, i think we all agree that singles hitters should take a strike or two and try to get on base any way they can. so the "no power/impatient" guys have no excuse. the "no power/patient" guys are doing the right thing. now the "impatient/power" guys (how could you leave out the big cat?). would these guys have a better slugging percentage if they took more pitches? perhaps, but i doubt it. if you tell joe carter to go up there and take a few pitches, he will draw more walks, but he also won't hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because he is more likely to hold back on a pitch that he used to drive. the "patient/power" guys? joe morgan had a small strike zone and rickey henderson has "a strike zone the size of hitler's heart" so they get their walks based on the small zone. look at the other 5 guys: thomas, bonds, mcgwire, ruth and williams. wow! a lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe walk these guys that to throw a clear strike to them. the pitchers would do better (in my opinion) by just coming after them with a good fastball for a strike on the first pitch, but pitchers would rather nibble, go 2-0 or 3-1 and then get hurt. ken kubey kubey@wpd.sgi.com (415) 390-3536 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104743">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104743" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 if i were the manager, i'd argue that the runner was out of the base line since he was to the *left* of the first base line. if the umps don't budge (which they won't: they nev- er admit when they are wrong), i'd file a protest with the rule 7.09(k) states: "it is interference by a batter or runner when - in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base ... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of) the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field- er taking the throw at first base..." the key word in the rule is "and." a runner isn't out just for running out of the baseline. he's out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter- so what is your definition of "interfering with the fielder taking the throw"? the rule book certainly doesn't have a definiton or clarification, so it's possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter his throw to avoid hitting the batter-runner, then again we have interference. you know, it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly--if the catcher (or the pitcher, say rob dibble, for example) throws toward first and hits the runner running inside the baseline, the fielder takes the chance of being ejected. therefore he probably would throw around the runner or (your scenario) above him. you should note that in our american legion league, (which uses mlb rules) we interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there is interference per rule 7.09. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104744">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104744" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 umpires are not required to call time out just because a player asks for time. only in extreme cases, like dust in the pitcher's or hitter's eyes, should an umpire call time. the batter has 20 seconds to get situated in the box and receive a pitch. i'm against putting a giant clock (or any size clock for that matter) up to count down 20 seconds between pitches and the minute for warm-ups. but i think umpires should tell hitters to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever, and instruct the pitcher to pitch. the same goes for pitchers. umps should tell them to pitch or feint within 20 seconds or a ball will be called. that's the way it should be. ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456@maine.maine.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104746">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104746" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 pitchers are required to pitch (or feint or attempt a pick-off) within 20 seconds after receiving the ball, not 15. pitchers are required to pitch their warm-up throws within a one minute time frame, beginning after each half inning ends, not two minutes. and the reason why a reliever should be allowed warm-ups is simple: different mound, different catcher. ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456@maine.maine.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104747">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104747" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris (given his run support)? how about an average ml pitcher? i can't believe that morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance ... i know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on morris, but let's give credit where credit is due. it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris. last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of august, and all the other starters were being shelled, and milwaukee was making a charge, morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (i can't remember exactly). also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save the bullpen every fifth day. if he didn't help us win the al east, forget about the pennent and the world series. a guy who threw 240 innings with about .6 run lower era would have saved the bullpen even more. say, somebody like frank viola (238 innings). his run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was stottlemyer's (5.90 runs) and he won only 12 games. i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of 6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit. he pitched only as good as he needed to be. when he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out" (i hate this expression!). an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down. but morris, being a veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball. by saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra (i hate this too!) when the game was on the line. nice audition tape. send it to: baseball tonight attn: ray knight bristol, ct have you, by chance, taken a look at the boxscores from last year to determine the accuracy of your account? i seem to recall morris getting at least 3 or 4 wins last year when the jays came back from behind after they had decided to pull morris at the end of an inning. mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history. - truly donovan 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104748">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104748" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 : hi there, : i'm german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now. : there are many problems occuring for me. one of them is the era statistic for : pitchers. what does it say ?? era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game. thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his era is 3.00. to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9. era = (er/ip) * 9 an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error. more specifically, if an error occurs that represented the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs. earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game. here are some examples: if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base. if an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs. if a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who were left on base. if the those runners who were left on base score, and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game. i hope this explains things for you. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104749">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104749" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> you want to speed up ballgames? |> 3. mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches (the current |> rule is too lenient), and then enforce it. fifteen seconds is more please pardon my ignorance if this is well known, but what is the current |> than enough time. if the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball, |> and restart the clock. i remember a post from last year indicating that a "pitch clock" was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work. i don't remember why they said that it did not work. anyone remember this? jody mcdonnel on wip in phil. has been saying that a pitch clock was inevitable. how would a pitch clock work on throws to first? maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make, and award a balk if he exceeds it. i'd have another question: who would operate the pitch clock? one of the umpires? add another one to the crew? another pair of suggestions: 1. remove the balk rule. it is the runners responsibility to stay "safe" no matter what the pitcher does. i'm not sure i like this idea. i think it would severely diminish the number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play (one of my personal favorites). 2. if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time (x = 3 to 5) without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base as if walked. ahhh! i suppose i should read the whole article before i hit the 'f' key, eh? obviously, from what i wrote above, i like this idea. the no-balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage. the base-walk allows the runner to "challenge" pitcher to throw over to the base. it may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag, since the pitcher knows he doesn't have very many chances to pick off the runner, so he may hurry too much. i'd rather see runs scored as the result of sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness that could result from this kind of rule. so, i suppose there are some disadvantages to that idea too. |> baseball games take about 2:51 in the nl, and just a shade under 3 hours |> in the al. that's just too damn long. i don't like to play in 3 hour |> games, much less watch a game for that long. my butt falls asleep, and |> if i'm watching on tv, i'll channel surf between pitches, catching |> colorized versions of mr. ed, leave it to beaver, and "those wacky |> nieporents" on nick at nite. i too, find myself surfing when i know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his "jewlery". i remember in little league, if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter's box, even for a moment, we were automatically out. that may be a little harsh for the majors, but seriously, how about putting a limit on the batters being able to step out, take several dozen practice swings, pound their shoes, scratch their balls, etc.? maybe forcing them to stay in the batter's box wouldn't be such a bad idea. that could save a few minutes. --randy 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104751">
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 : in article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (bernard o'farmer : >i am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly : >not "enraptured" by ole harry. : but maybe his wife was :-) : i don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different : people (totally unrelated) have said harry was 'relieved' of his duties : because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch's wife. : judgement is left to the individual, cuz i sure don't claim to be an : impeachable source in this case. among those who have said it (well, not quite said it but certainly alluded to it) is bing devine, redbird gm or some other administrator at the time. i heard bing speak about it at last year's sabr national. btw, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's sabr national in san diego? i'll be there... neal traven+@pitt.edu you're only young once, but you can be traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu immature forever. -- larry andersen 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104752">
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 while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around, gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately. as soon as he stepped out, hirschbeck told him to get back in the box. now, gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches. the only reason he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call. i expect his concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation i imagine it's best to be as calm as possible. contributing factors would be gant's bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the braves long scoring and it is not hirschbeck's job to help gant with any of these difficulties. if gant can't gather his concentration for whatever reason, that just makes him all the more meat in the batter's box. the umpire's job is to maintain flow of play. gant is not entitled to time to regather his nor is anyone else. now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there. you know the umpire is going to do something (call for a strike, throw you out, etc.). gant was wrong. absolutely. i think it'd be more accurate to say gant was foolish. but hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view. aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem. gant had a reason to want some time (disputed strike call). if a disputed strike call is ample reason for a timeout, games would last about nine-fifteen weeks, if jack morris or dave "whiner" stieb were pitching. a disputed strike call is not sufficient for a time out. suck it up, get back in the box, and never badmouth the blue. they're not going to change their mind, and you're just going to come across as a pinhead, which won't help you with the borderline calls. ftr - i never speak to umpires when i don't know them personally, nor do i glance at them, or react to calls. as a result, i think i get more than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate, because i have a rep of having a good eye. (actually, there are a lot of negative connotations that go with that rep, including copious questions about my masculinity, party affiliation, and sexual preference.) gant hadn't been wasting time all game. the game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old. irrelevant. he was wasting time then. the score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position. is there *any* reason hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut gant a little 1. because it's not his job. 2. because setting the precedent of cutting slack there can easily extend to those 3 hour games. (kind of like the phantom dp.) for no discernible constructive reason, hirschbeck disrupted the game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key situation. did he have a date to get to? gant hurt himself, and the braves disrupted the game. your biases are exposed, and i'm sitting here defending umpires and the sf giants, which is like phyllis schlafly defending gary segura, jack kevorkian, and the swedish abortion team. and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game. i believe terry said the magic word. there are some truly quick ways to get tossed from a ballgame. for a primer, email me. good ways to get tossed from a game: 1. ask ken kaiser if he got his money back from nutri-system. 2. kiss rich garcia on the lips, and say "hi, honey, i'm home!" 3. goose eric gregg. 4. ask bruce froemming if his parents had any children that lived. 5. get naked. (source: the greg spira book of diamond ettiquette, as told to peter gammons. 1991, collier press.) * gary huckabay * "outside?! that was right down the bleedin' pipe, * * "balder than any * kenny! i realize i don't have great control, but * * dave on the net. * c'mon!" "gary, that was a styrofoam cup. the * * really." * plate's a foot to your right. throw the ball." * 
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 of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that galarraga's inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't paid to walk" or "is an rbi guy" or whatever. alright, that's enough. i've suffered with all kinds of insults (as typical for the net), but give me a break. galarraga is currently batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing enough walks. what would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000? you can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team". if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen), *then* i would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. my comment that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's batting .400 and leading the league in rbi's so what bloody difference does it make if he isn't drawing a lot of walks? sheesh. --greg 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104755">
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 |> hey...i've noticed that luis alicea is starting at 2nd for the cardinals |> instead of geronimo pena. is pena hurt, or was he just benched for poor |> performance? anyone know? after a quick start, pena has been stuck in a rut. torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in. it has worked in the past. _ ____|____====___h___________________====_====_====_ |_______| [[[[ ####### ###### | bob netherton ______| [][] |____ """ missouri pacific | sun microsystems |o ____| mp |__| \___________________________/\_________| dallas, tx |_| / |_5001_| \_| | | | | | | | | | | | |_| |_|=|====|======|===|===/\==================================|_| |_| [(o)=(o)=(o)] |____________________| [(o)=(o)=(o)] |_| 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104756">
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 don't you guys think so? i mean, c'mon! what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball. oh, i don't know. maybe because they love the game? they cause so many problems. just look at lisa olson. remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room? she started crying like a little girl! so people deal with unfair treatment differently. i suppose you would have more respect if she punched out some people, like a stereotypical macho man would have done? just don't think women belong in a man's sport. before you smart guys flame me for this, i know the given example was about football. who cares? it still applies to other male sports. male sports are only that way because they won't let women be involved. there is no divine providence segregating sports. it is the decision of the men who run it. men almost as liberal thinking as you... how can we have women umpires? ummm...by insisting they pass an accredited umpire course, then hiring them? jeez! look at pam postema. just because she's a woman, everybody on the face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to ump. if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires. besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs' bat. or jose oquendo's bat. listen, mr status quo: i know pam postema. i've seen her work. she is, without question, the toughest person i've ever met. she doesn't give a damn about her fingernails, but does care about working the game. she's not there to find a man to take care of her, but to do the best job any umpire can do. your bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you neck, not your grasp on society. there's nothing wrong with a red neck. why, some of us hicks even listen to cultured music and such, can you say the same? aside from that, you shouldn't try to shit on this guy by insulting where you think he comes from. where i'm from, we milk cows, drive trucks, and yes, even like baseball. so screw anyone that doesn't like it. oh yeah, learn the difference between to and too city-boy! (see below) unnumbered wanna-be member of the bob knepper fan club (bkfc) either way, there are too many complications. nobody said life was easy. pam is aware of that. to bad that she has to be judged by people like you, who can't look past anatomy. qaustin jacobs (bob knepper fan club member #12 were you ever an organized baseball owner, or in the political system before women could vote? you seem to feel threatened... ttfn - woody no smileys here either. none. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104757">
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 ok, there are three balls on this batter. the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter. is that a walk or a hit by pitch? bob vesterman. it's gotta be an hbp. doug roberts -- watching chris nabholz pitch reminds me of a quote by bart simpson: "come on snipers! where are you?" go expos! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104758">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104758" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 all of these divisions based on race, religion, etc. make me sick. as they should. isn't it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence? isn't it a shame that hiring practices, on and off the field, have been discriminatory for so long? (quick: name a light-hitting black outfielder or 1b who lasted 10+ years in the bigs. i bet you can name two dozen white ones.) otis nixon. darnell coles henry cotto manny mota. billy hatcher herm winningham. lonnie smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field) gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent obp) cecil espy willie wilson gary pettis milt thompson gary varsho ok, i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook, but only after the first 7 or 8. oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting black outfielder: lou brock. look it up. and curt flood. cesar geronimo. cesar cedeno. note: these guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got to be close. likewise for my list. oh, and a prediction: milt cuyler. mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com you know the great thing about tv? if something important happens anywhere at all in the world, no matter what time of the day or night, you can always change the channel. - jim ignatowski 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104760">
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 don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball.....always has been.....always will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! actually, keith hernandez is the best. "behind the bag!" - vin scully i'll go with mark grace, and in 2 years, frank thomas. chintan amin <the university of illinois urbanachampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu *******sig under construction hard hat area******** 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104761">
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 and then cosper@seq.uncwil.edu (kit cosper) quoth: =>a comment made by one of the braves announcers, attributed to =>an anonymous player after friday night's game, => "i'm sorry we didn't tie it up, i wanted to see some more => umpiring." =>just about sums it up............. sure, like ron gant wasn't completely out of line. if i were hirschbeck, i would have ejected, in order, ron gant, every single last brave who came onto the field, and possibly bobby cox, depending on the language he used. since cox was the only brave rung up, i suspect i would have thrown him out too. you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did. it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire, but of the dignity of the game. jason lee jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu giants e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0 the most beautiful equation in mathematics. magic for all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: number: "it might have been." john greenleaf whittier 150 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104762">
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 why are we continuously putting down other universities? queen's is not as great as is makes itself out to be. this place has only got a good rep because it's been here so long. if someone would take the time to look around and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant misuse of the bell curve they could see that queen's needs some major improvements. i would personally start with hiring professors who can actually teach, not people who are here with the attitude that this place would be okay if it wasn't for all the students running around. when did george bell (ex-blue jay) learn to throw a curve? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104763">
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 when gant turned away, hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box. imo, at this point in time, hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game. gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle. and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play. gant resisted, as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and hirschbeck called for the pitch. at that point, cox came out on the field, the pitch was thrown, and many other braves left the dugout. cox was tossed "protecting his player". i was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game. did you see the same game i saw? gant, most reasonable, argued a horrible call which hirschbeck, correctly, did nothing about. gant then proceeded to walk halfway to 3rd base, lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck. while i don't necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up, this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck. he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation. the bottom line is: gant started a dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost. the events i saw were: 1) called strike by hirschbeck 2) shocked-looking gant asks for appeal to first 3) no appeal to first 4) gant steps out of batters box. 5) hirschbeck *immediately* orders gant back in. [bad move] 6) gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move] 7) hirschbeck yells at gant. gant is silent. 8) hirschbeck calls for the pitch. 9) pitch is called a strike. 10) cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field) 11) cox is ejected, players everywhere 12) play finally resumes. gant shouldn't have ignored hirschbeck. not returning made the strike call fairly likely. although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether. but if hirschbeck had let gant step out, the whole incident probably would have been avoided. dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104764">
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 i agree with nick. what's the big deal about long games? if you want to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch. and yes, baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves. first, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball. the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches. until six or seven years ago i was an enthusiastic fan of nfl football. last year i hardly watched a game. what turned me off were the incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game. a team scores. 2.5 minutes of commercials. kickoff. 1.5 minutes of commercials. three downs and a punt. 2 minutes of commercials. aaaaarrrrgh! earlier in this thread i commented on larussa and the a's, whom i believe institutionalize slow play. i don't mind the cat-and-mouse game with rickey on first; in fact, i rather enjoy it. similarly i would enjoy the battle with listach or lofton or polonia on first. what i object to is when such games are played with karkovice on first, or when the game is a blowout. i don't mind when the pitcher steps off the mound to gather his thoughts in a crucial situation, or when a hitter steps out of the box to regain his concentration. what i object to is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity. when a game is exciting, these little delays serve as tension builders and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game. when the delays happen with regularity, they become nuisances, just like the commercial breaks in football. i understand the nfl imposed a number of rule changes to "speed up" the games, basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move the markers and the ball to the spots faster. that did not address the problem of the continuity of the game. it may have appeased the sponsors and the networks, but i would be amazed if it did anything to enhance the experience of the fans. similary, while some 3-hour baseball games bore me to tears, those are the ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly long periods to get ready for each pitch. i doubt if anyone watching the braves-giants game cared about gant stepping out. i doubt if anyone watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that was present. i would be totally opposed to any effort that would eliminate that aspect of baseball. on the other hand, i wish baseball had a commissioner that was powerful enough to sit down with alderson/larussa/duncan and explain that they are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games out the way that they do. i sure wouldn't mind a little arm-twisting -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104765">
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 out of curiousity, why haven't you pointed this same thing out to mr neiporent, who seems to be making the (unsubstantiated) accusation against will clark? as for "taking the word" of those two, leonard has repeatedly said he had no problems with will, and mitchell refused to mike, you again prove your utter inability to read plain english. it is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability, the critic invariably makes a mistake himself ("english" is generally written "english".) find somebody who *is* literate, and have them explain my *full* post to you. i am not saying will clark is a racist. i am not saying will clark is *not* a racist. i am saying that i do not know, and *you* do not know. i am saying that i do not care, and consider it the giants' concern. oddly, i do not see that i have contested any of that. perhaps you, with assuredly greater "english" ability can explain, in tiny words that i might grasp their meaning, precisely where i infer that you have said any of those david nieporent understood my post and replied in private e-mail. you should, perhaps, take reading lessons from him. no mr fisher, you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the allegation in the first place. you do not. perhaps you might explain why that is? as for the email route, mr fisher, you might have tried that yourself. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104767">
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 disclaimer -- this is for fun. in my computerized baseball game, i keep track of a category called "stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not make with average effort." using the 1992 defensive averages posted by sherri nichols (thanks sherri!), i've figured out some defensive stats for the leftfielders. hits stolen have been redefined as "plays kevin bass would not have made." ok, i realize that's unfair. kevin's probably the victim of pitching staff, fluke shots, and a monster park factor. but let's put it this way: if we replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with kevin's 49.4% out making ability, how many extra hits would go by? to try and correlate it to reality a little more, i've calculated net hits stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make. by the same method i've calculated net extra bases (doubles and triples let by). finally, i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution, or dcon :->. basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player. i add this number to ops to get dops (defense + onbase plus slug), which should represent the player's total contribution to the team. so don't take it too seriously. the formula for dcon appears at the end of this the short version -- definition of terms hs -- hits stolen -- extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs -- net hits stolen -- extra outs compared to average fielder ndp -- net double plays -- extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb -- net extra bases -- extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder dcon -- defensive contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate. dops -- dcon + ops -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution. national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez, l. 63 28 20 .192 .866 gilkey, b. 52 23 14 .150 .941 clark, g. 46 11 11 .065 .726 alou, m. 20 3 12 .052 .835 bonds, b. 54 9 -7 .019 1.099 may, d. 21 0 -7 -.020 .659 gant, r. 31 -5 -2 -.021 .715 bass, k. 0 -24 -4 -.126 .600 ordered by dops 1.099 bonds .941 gilkey .866 gonzalez .835 alou .726 clark .718 *nl average* .715 gant .659 may .600 bass american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops raines, t. 53 22 20 .111 .896 anderson, b. 65 30 8 .102 .924 henderson, r. 43 20 4 .101 .984 vaughn, g. 55 27 -3 .095 .817 gladden, d. 25 4 8 .038 .699 hall, m. 29 6 -2 .017 .756 mack, s. 38 6 -8 .005 .866 polonia, l. 10 -11 10 -.019 .647 mcreynolds, k. 13 -8 -9 -.064 .711 maldanado, c. 9 -21 -12 -.105 .714 reimer, k. 5 -18 -16 -.102 .671 order by dops .984 henderson .924 anderson .896 raines .866 mack .817 vaughn .756 hall .733 *al average* .714 maldanado .711 mcreynolds .699 gladden .671 reimer .647 polonia more discussion -- dcon formula: ((nhs + ndp)/pa) + ((nhs + ndp + neb)/ab) why such a bizzare formula? basically, it's designed to be added into the ops, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored". the extra outs are factored into obp, while the extra bases removed are factored into slg. that's why i used pa and ab as the divisors. for more discussion see the post on hits stolen -- first base 1992 dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104771">
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 i don't think it was that obvious at the time that viola was better. morris and viola had comparable k/ip ratios in 1991. viola was coming off an injury, whereas morris was healthy. at the time i didn't really want the sox to sign either. i was more than a little worried about viola's elbow. but you *surely* remember my shout of relief when, after a week of rumors that morris was coming to the red sox, they ended up with viola now i'm even happier. viola seems to have rebounded nicely. also, morris was willing to sign for only two years. the jays don't like to sign pitchers to long-term contracts, which i think is a sensible policy. how long did viola sign for. three years? i generally agree with their policy of avoiding long-term contracts for pitchers. but i think they enforce it rather too strictly. these days the premier pitchers all sign three or four year deals. which leaves the jays with morris and stewart. if the jays want to compete for top free agent pitchers, they will have to accept greater risks. any idea what the option year deal is for morris? are there any automatic activation clauses? what is the buyout amount?f 
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 i heard they were posted somewhere, but i can not find them. please e-mail location. jody hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com data general corporation, linthicum, md rock, river, tree, mastodon. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104774">
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 here's a few two-sport star trivia questions. i'll admit they're not too difficult, but a bit challenging nevertheless. mail me your answers please; or post them. 1. which pitcher played for the harlem globetrotters? 2. which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in 1978? 3. which does dieon sanders have more of (professionally): career touchdowns or triples? 4. has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball? if so, name him and the years he played each. if you have any other two-sport star tidbits, feel free to include them. 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104775" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 another pair of suggestions: 1. remove the balk rule. it is the runners responsibility to stay "safe" no matter what the pitcher does. 2. if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time (x = 3 to 5) without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base as if walked. this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably. suppose the pitcher uses up (n-1) of his n pick-off attempts. the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base, given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time. would this suggestion apply to pick-off attempts per pitch, per batter, or per base runner (on the same base)? dr. edward j. baranoski mit lincoln laboratory "it's got to be the going, rm. j-118d, po box 73 not the getting there that's good" lexington, ma 02143 --harry chapin, from "greyhound" (617)981-0480 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104776">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104776" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 alright, that's enough. i've suffered with all kinds of insults (as typical for the net), but give me a break. galarraga is currently batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing enough walks. what would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000? you can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team". fine, are you willing to bet that he will bat .400 the rest of the way? the point is that he has hurt the rockies so far; it's that he *will* hurt them, eventually. just as much as he hurt the expos and the cardinals the past couple seasons. if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen), *then* i would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. my comment it has happened for the past 3+ seasons; where have you been? that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's batting .400 and leading the league in rbi's so what bloody difference does it make if he isn't drawing a lot of walks? sheesh. we'll see come september. (i have an outstanding bet with someone that galarraga's obp will be less than .300 on june 1.) go california angels! nelson lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104780">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104780" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 millitello) says: uhhhh i think i spelled my name correctly. sam millitello. uhhhh there are only three l's. bob vesterman. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104786">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104786" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 : >compiled from the last five defensive average reports, here are the career : >das for the individual players in the reports. stats are courtesy of : >sherri nichols. players are listed in descending order. : and some comments, with some players deleted. : >third basemen : >leius, scott ---- ---- ---- .653 .680 0.672 : looks good. too bad he's moving to short. : >pagliarulo, mike .631 ---- .575 .744 ---- 0.649 : this is an interesting line. his 1988 figure was slightly below average. : his 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody. part of : that may be his mobility. 1988 was with the yankees. 1990 was with the : padres, who appear to have a rotten infield. 1991 was with the twins, and : judging by leius and gaetti, the metrodome may be a good place to play : third. gaetti, gary .616 .638 .655 .632 ---- 0.637 apologies if i don't know what i'm talking about :-), but as a twins fan, i like to think they have good players in any park. not sure if i remember completely or not, but i think gaetti played with the twins in '87 for the world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4). i believe the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the angels. lots of factors make a player excell... i hate it when so many use the dome. it may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it's snowing and raining. i'm sure the company for which i work does not have all the same opinions that i do... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104788">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104788" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the boston red sox lead the kc royals 8-0 after 2 innings. the sox are the only undefeated team in the al east after 4 days. go jump in the lake you non-believers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as i have read this net the last few days, i am continually amazed at the pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals. especially when it comes down to saying that the bosox haven't a prayer. as a long time red sox fan, i will simply say: the impossible dream year - 1967 for those of you with short memories. short lives, or both. to be a red sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism from those who only follow 'the hot team'. this statement is supported based on the increased number of 'brave woofers' out on the net. a true fan of a team, any team, will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean years, and be amply rewarded when the time is right. yeah, so what if buckner let a roller go through his legs in `86. who cares if clemens told cooley to go piss up a rope and promptly earned a quick shower. the fact is, they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans supported them. now that it appears that they are on lean times, the number of detracters come from all over. so what! let them play and we will see what happens come september. the red sox may not be that good, but they are certainly not that bad, either and they do have a chance to win the world series, after all, remember the `69 mets? who would have given them a chance to even make it that far, let alone beat baltimore. let's face it, baseball is a wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than football and basketball. because of this, one can never say with absolute certainity what the outcome will be over the course of 162 games. | joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com |warning: elvis impersonating can be hazardous| | joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | to your health -- it sure won't help| | | your reputation. | | i bike, therefore i am! | go red sox! go celtics! | | | go seahawks! go sonics! | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104789">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104789" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 off and on over the last several months, threads about rbis and related topics have gotten me to thinking about how well we can predict a player's rbis using information about his overall performance and the number of runners in scoring position (risp) that he bats with. in the brock2 model, bill james calculated predicted rbis as rbi=.235*(total bases) + home runs. this completely ignores the context, which was all that brock2 could do, since context was unknown to it. so i thought i'd take that idea as a starting point and look how good a fit to the data you get by comparing (rbi-home runs) to slg*risp. i've started with team data, using data from the elias's that i've picked up over the years when a) i could afford them and b) i could stomach the thought of increasing elias's profits. that gave me the years 1984-1986, 1988, and 1990. (i don't have team rbis for '87 or i could add that year.) if you run a simple least squares fit to the data you get (rbi-home runs) = 0.81*slg*risp. the correlation between the lhs and the rhs is 0.86, which is significant at a ridiculously high level. so, i feel like the fit is good at the team level. i've no started to move on to the player level and have looked at 4 players (will clark, ozzie smith, joe carter, and don mattingly). i hope to add quite a few more during my copious free time this year. it doesn't do too badly, except the equation underpredicts the low hr hitter (smith), which may be a fault of the model or it could just be ozzie. the results: rbi-hr years actual predicted carter (84-88,90) 400 402.6 clark (87,88,90,92) 269 269.6 matt'ly (84-88,90) 471 460.8 smith (84-88,90) 317 280.6 i think we can make a case (and i hope to make it stronger) that rbis can be predicted simply from knowing how a player slugs overall and how many men are in scoring position when he comes up. more later, harold brooks hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu national severe storms laboratory (norman, ok) "i used to work for a brewery, too, but i didn't drink on the job." -p. bavasi on dal maxvill's view that florida can win the nl east in '93 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104791">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104791" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i think you can add former a's first baseman mike epstein (no relation) to the list. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104796">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104796" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 houston astros 1 seattle mariners 1 montreal expos 2 toronto blue jays 3 new york mets 3 oakland athletics 2 colorado rockies 5 detroit tigers 3 pittsburgh pirates 5 kansas city royals 5 san diego padres 4 (13) new york yankees 4 st. louis cardinals 4 cleveland indians 3 los angeles dodgers 2 boston red sox 4 (13) atlanta braves 1 california angels ppd san francisco giants 6 milwaukee brewers rain this leads me to believe that it's not really a rabbitball year, and that we've just had a rash of high-scoring games. i bet this one day's worth of games pulled everything back to close to average. interesting, because the other day, all but three games had ten or more runs scored, and yesterday no game had more than nine. ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104798">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104798" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year.... the tater that jack morris served to griffey the younger in his first at-bat this year went 394 feet, if i remember right (i'll have to check my scorecard at home). i think that's the longest so far in the kingdome through the first stand (five games) there. a weak showing, despite some promising taterball candidates ... ben mcdonald, rich delucia, and the rest of the mariner bullpen ... making appearances. anyone have the tape-measure value for omar vizquel's grand slam in the jeff brown big enchilada of the brown bag lunches astronomy dept. jbrown@u.washington.edu u. of washington jbrown@phast.phys.washington.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104800">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104800" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 so who will start this year's all star game for the al? probably alomar. not to put him down; he's a great player. but it helps to have all the recognition he's had, plus to play in a city which is likely to pour in the votes... i like alomar. but i'd like to differ with your opinion about "a city which is likely to pour in the votes...". i attended many games last year during the balloting. i know that a great number of the attendees did not fill out their ballots, but left them, beer soaked and torn on the floor of the stands. toronto gets no more and no less votes than any other city for the all star game. unfortunately, this is not a one time thing. i've attended games during the last four seasons, and it has happened every time. the apathetic attitude to all star ballots really offends me. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104803">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104803" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 one of the chapters in palmer and thorn's 'hidden game' is titled 'pitching is 44% of baseball,' implying that fielding is 6%. how do they determine that? beats me -- it's been a long, long time since i read it. this was (my opinion) the stupidest thing in the hidden game. the argument was 1) defense, or runs allowed, is 50% of the game. 2) unearned runs amount to 12% of the runs allowed; earned runs, 88%. 3) since unearned runs are the result of fielding, not pitching, and earned runs are the product of pitching, not fielding, fielding is 12% of defense and pitching is 88% of defense. 4) caombining with #1, pitching is 44% of the game, fielding 6%. pete is usually sharper than that. my own feel is that fielding is in the 25-33% of defense range; call it 30-70 between fielding and one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%. i'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or even 40-10. give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and even if you don't let roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (no offense, gordon). clay d. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104808">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104808" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anybody else think that ws stats should become part of a player's career stats? why not? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104813">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104813" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 says: dj was a popular player in san diego, derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry. i laugh at you now, and i will laugh at you again, equally publicly, when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent. the jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff, not because derek bell was traded for darrin jakson. i couldn't agree more. the jays have a lot of power in their line-up. so far pitching has been the biggest problem. maybe we can get acker back? :-) but anyway the point of my post, if you missed it, was that derek bell was traded because he was basically in the doghouse with cito and the rest of the team. one incident that sticks out in my mind was when derek bell ran back out on to the feild after the jays had won the division and all the players were back in the clubhouse. bell ran around the field with his arms in the air, waving a big towel over his head. he looked like a big jerk, especially when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole season. the next day, winfield and carter somehow got the keys to bell's jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started. the stadium announcer said that there was going to be a draw later in the game for bell's jeep. bell really freaked out. i don't think bell was to popular after that. i think that jackson might be trying a little too hard right now. he's known for being a great outfielder, and he's not the only blue jay who has been booting balls and playing generally awful. andrew wyllie wyllie@physics.utoronto.ca mrcs university of toronto 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104814">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104814" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 yes, i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net... i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of "dummy". urban myth? true? i gots ta know. dummy hoy, a late 19th-century baseball player, was deaf. in order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or strike, the umpires developed hand signals. this also helped to relieve the stress on umpires' vocal cords, so they didn't have to shout "strike!!!" or "ball!!!!!" 350 times a game... heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book john thorn has ever authored, "a century of baseball lore" :-) mark b. mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca jason a. miller "some doctor guy" frank tanana: 1 win?!?!?! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104816">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104816" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i don't know. i think phil plantier has the ugliest stance. he looks like he's sitting on the toilet. brian "tbo" rosen 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104817">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104817" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 mike schmidt's 500th: not only a milestone, but also a 9th inning game- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104818">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104818" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 says: or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid-season. c'mon, the phillies haven't proved anything yet. atlanta was similar to the phils 2 years ago. they sucked. they started having the phillies finished third 2 years ago. the braves really are. their record is 6-3. can you imagine the phils record if they were batting .188? hahahaha. and atlanta's hitting will improve dramatically. the phillies' opponents haven't hit much better eat our words or not, forgive us. the true fans in philly have been through a lot...:) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104819">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104819" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average. yes, the april 12 usa today lists le grand chapeau as having a .422 batting average and a .413 obp. okay, i'll bite. how can obp be *lower* than batting average? sac flies or something? ken kubey kubey@wpd.sgi.com (415) 390-3536 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104820">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104820" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (mike silverman) says: does anybody know what is going on with lankford? i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths. whereis the ray lankford we saw last year??? be patient. he has a sore shoulder from crashing into the wall. the cards will give him all the time he needs to come around. he is their full time centerfielder. he will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting clean-up. mark kornbluh. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104822">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104822" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 well, officially it's the braves. at least up until they started winning it was. are they still, officially? if so, why? and how did they receive this label? unoffically, but without a doubt, america's team is the cubs. why? well, my guess is because america loves underdogs. every year, no matter the cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as possible) win anything. over the years, as the losing has mounted, america has fallen in love with these perennial losers. the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide. the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else. (including the ws champs) it must be that eternal hope. "this is the year. they've got the talent. they're off to a good start. they've got the pitching (or hitting, or whatever their strong point is at the time)." it's that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again. when? only god knows. since it's been so long, it could come at any time, or it could be another 85 years. but until they do finally win, and start winning consistently, the cubs will remain america's lovable underdogs. the cubs are...america's team. bradley u> i'm really a jester in disguise! you are absolutely correct. braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners. correct me if i am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play.i would bet my next paycheck that 80% of the so-called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than 3 players from their 1988 season. on the other hand, ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name 3 players from any given year and 80% of them probably could. granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but that does not mean they diserve the title "america's team" the only reason they are considered america's team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation. i'll consider toronto america's team before the braves go reds! chris babbitt 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu "all i want in life is a woman to love, and a woman to care for my kids. hopefully the two will never meet." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104823">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104823" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |>>>so, alfredo griffin is better than barry larkin. |>if rings is what you're judging by, then i don't see your point, since barry |>has one (1990). |yes but alfredo has at least two!! (1988 dodgers and 1992 blue jays). |not only that, he has won world series rings for more different teams than |babe ruth and lou gehrig combined!! (how do we know that the yankee dynasty |was not due to lazarri being at third?) warren, i agree with your premise... but... the babe won on two teams. that's right, he was part of the red sox dynasty of the 1910s. and everyone knows that the yankee dynsaty wouldn't have happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at the moment. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104825">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104825" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 let's not forget al michaels, of "do you believe in miracles?" fame. of course, you can't forget mel allen. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104829">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104829" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 as the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting 4th for the giants behind will clark. barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the national league. imho, to have williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting 4th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the 2 simple reasons: (2) having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit. this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls. opposing pitchers don't want to walk williams to get to bonds. i don't understand this at all. matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit. he won't take walks. he'd rather swing. if i'm the opposing pitcher, why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well, when i know that williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit very well) at a low and away curve? john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado, boulder franjion@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104830">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104830" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball.....always has been.....always will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! always has been?????? even before he was even conceived of? that's a neat trick. always will be?????? we leave a lot of room for error don't we. hopefully i missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise ... well i leave that to the individual to fill in but i will say what about gehrig! (shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104831">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104831" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hey folks, saw the giants play ball at the 'stick saturday, april 17. it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two-out, two-run homer to right to win it. (it wasn't the game where the fans threw the give-away "fotoballs" onto the field in response to the homer -- too bad, huh?) well, the 'stick is still cold. the saturday game ended at 5:45pm, and it was cold then. i can't imagine night games in april at the 'stick. the wind kicked up a little, too, and i got this idea. at most games, there's a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field a lot of the time. i propose a kid's clean-up corps composed mainly of 10-12 year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning (when the guy in the toro smooths the infield) and grab the trash. it might not be glamorous, but at that age i probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers. everybody wins here! whaddaya think? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104832">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104832" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the national league. imho, to have williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting 4th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the (2) having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit. this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls. opposing pitchers don't want to walk williams to get to bonds. you're definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds. he must, and i mean must, get fastballs to hit...otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise. what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds, williams, and clark 3-4-5, the reason being that i feel bonds' potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners. i think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with bonds in the 3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the 5 spot. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104834">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104834" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris (given his run support)? how about an average ml pitcher? i can't believe that morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance ... i know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on morris, but let's give credit where credit is due. it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris. well, when you say, without morris, you have to mention an assumed replacement. if the alternative to morris was letting cito gaston soft-toss the ball underhand to the opposition every 5 days, then of course the blue jays wouldn't have won without morris. if the alternative was replacement level, then i think it would've been very close, and yes, morris might've made the difference. if the alternative was frank viola, the blue jays probably would have won more easily with last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of august, and all the other starters were being shelled, and milwaukee was making a charge, morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (i can't remember exactly). yes. you can make the argument that the his presence prevented the team from collapsing in august. also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save the bullpen every fifth day. if he didn't help us win the al east, forget about the pennent and the world series. those innings were probably helpful. his run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was stottlemyer's (5.90 runs) and he won only 12 games. i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of 6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit. he pitched only as good as he needed to be. when he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out" (i hate this expression!). an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down. but morris, being a veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball. by saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra (i hate this too!) when the game was on the line. well, i think is complete bs. what happened most of the time is that morris fell behind, and the team came back and rescued him. mostly, this is because he's a lousy 1st inning pitcher, and much better the rest of the way. that the team can climb out of 4-0, 5-0 holes consistently and win them 6-5 is not to morris' credit; it's to the team's credit. furthermore, while morris did exceed the w-l percentage that would be projected from his runs allowed and run support, he hasn't done this in previous years. in fact, his w-l record in 1991 is a lot worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed. do you think he just came up with this ability in 1992. look at the 2 postseason games he pitched decently in. typical morris games. morris gets behind; team rescues him. he's not responsible for that rescue. and in both those games, the team just didn't rescue him enough. jack morris pitched as well as he did during much of the season in those 2 games; the offense just didn't earn him a victory. btw, i think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more can he be embarrassed? morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can't start anymore; he's too bad a first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104836">
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 first, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball. i definitely do. that's why i don't like going to see games played on artificial turf :-) the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches. and while it's true that the gaps between plays can be interesting, this is only true when they don't become extra-long. well, your idea of "interesting" differs from mine. i think batting practice is interesting, for example, and make a special effort to get to the game very early in order to see it. i think the delaying tactics of batters, pitchers, catchers, and managers are interesting because they're attempts to gain advantage through control of the flow and timing of the game. of course, the umpires can, and should, intervene when these tactics get out of hand. as ryan robbins has pointed out, there are rules that cover this. one of the more fascinating things about baseball, i think, is its open-endedness with regard to time. you never know if the game is going to zip right by and be over in less than two hours, or if it's going to go on until four in the morning. likewise, some games are action-packed, and some games are slow and lazy. that's fine by me. those folks who want constant action should watch the games on tv so they can channel- surf and cater to their short attention spans. hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104838">
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 i need the box score from the april 15 game i believe the score was 5 to 4 if anyone can provide it for me i would appreciate it.... -joseph a. guastella jr. u.s. long distance, mkt. rep- --523 dewitt (210)533-8318 9311 san pedro, suite 300 -- ---san antonio, tx 78204 san antonio, tx 78216 --- ----jguastel@lonestar.utsa.edu (800)-460-8753 ext 395 ---- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104840">
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 cub fever is hitting me again. i'm beginning to think they have a chance this year. (what the heck am i thinking?) sorry. just a moment of incompetence. i'll be ok. really. bradley u. you sure? this maybe a chronic syndrome. if it persists, we may have to banish you to the "cub-crazy sanatarium" in north chicago... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104844">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104844" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the national league. imho, to have williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting 4th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the (2) having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit. this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls. opposing pitchers don't want to walk williams to get to bonds. you're definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds. he must, and i mean must, get fastballs to hit...otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise. what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds, williams, and clark 3-4-5, the reason being that i feel bonds' potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners. i think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with bonds in the 3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the 5 spot. williams does not like hitting cleanup!! secondly, bonds and clark (in that order) are a lot more productive with runners in scoring position than matt "i am streaky, free swinger" williams. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104848">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104848" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone else out there not like deon? i think he's all hype. his .300 season last year was good, but i'm not convinced that he can do it again. it reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when tim wallach hit 30 or so homers and had 127 rbi. it never even came close to happening again. of course, maybe i just prefer guys who go about their business and don't play it up for the attention. just my ho. tim wallach can be explained with the rabbitball. deion can be explained as "learning how to play the game". i'm not betting that deion will be able to play as well as last year, but i think the odds of deion playing as well or better than he did last year are better than the odds of otis nixon doing the same thing. when you factor in defense, otis was more valuable last year. but i'm not convinced he'll be more valuable this year, and especially next year. dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104850">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104850" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 so that's what happened to denny mclain. sad. for those of you who are interested, another baseball pariah, pete rose, has a weekday radio show on the sports and entertainment national radio network. i think it's 3-5 pm locally, 6-8 pm on the east coast. and actually, his on-air monologues about the baseball business sounds a lot more reasonable and articulate than what i hear from the ray knights of the world. greg "mockingbird" franklin "interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu than mingling between g7 races." -- robohen stodgy things argument by an inept speaker. ignorant sermonizing. a drinking bout without hors d'oeuvres. a dried-up sword sheath held together by threads. questioning by a boy favorite about one's other affairs. -- inumakura (the dog pillow) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104854">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104854" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 total baseball, which also tries to evaluate a player's total offensive and defensive contributions, gives barry bonds a total player rating of 9.0 for 1992. only one other player since ruth attained that mark: cal ripken for his 1984 season. rounding out the top five offensive players in the nl last season: sheffield, 5.9; sandberg, 5.8; van slyke, 5.3; and larkin, 4.7. the top 5 offensive players in the al in 1992 were: e. martinez, 4.8; ventura, 4.8; anderson, 4.5; r. henderson, 4.4; and thomas, 4.4 in short, total baseball says bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons ever in the game's history -- better than any year had by mantle, mays, williams, etc. (if you disagree, don't flame me; flame the writers of total baseball.) also, martinez and ventura are neck and neck, so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis, which one had the better year can be considered a toss-up. thus, total baseball supports your choices of bonds and ventura as the mvps of 1992. phil brown | aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104856">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104856" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab- solutely that player a's team would have played better with player b in their lineup. sheer speculation. impossible to ascertain. there are very few disciplines where 100% certainty is necessary to state something as fact. baseball is not one of them. therefore i can say that i know clemens was better than morris last year, and larkin was better than griffin. no, i can't ascertain this. i can't prove it. but i'm not required to do so. and since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless, why don't you simply stay out of them? (no, i'm not going to be cordial. roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead. send me e-mail if you insist on details.) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104857">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104857" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 you can't call time when there's a play in progress. ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456@maine.maine.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104860">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104860" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 on the contrary. it's statistically impaired, opinionated little assholes like yourself, who, while springing up all over the continent like some dirty virus, are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." heheheheh.. sorry, roger, i wronged you.. you're not boring all the time.. this one is a classic. 'cordially, as always' hehehehehhe! are you a jerk? do people hate you? are you no fun at parties? well! come to the roger maynard school of cordiality! we can teach you to be 'cordial' with the best of them! use such time honored 'cordiality' techniques as: 1) calling people assholes! 2) comparing them to viruses! for advanced students: 3) comparing them to dirty viruses. what is a dirty virus, and how can you tell it from a clean one? we know, and here at the roger maynard school of cordiality, we can teach you to know, too! heheheh.. thanks, roger.. this made my evening :-) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104864">
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 : in any case, i think viola would have made a better signing. why? : viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does : toronto have? well, i agree that viola is a better signing. however, why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters? i understand lefthanded spot relievers, even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters. i just don't understand why people insist on lefthanded starters, unless there is a park effect (e.g., yankee stadium). the answer is - they're stupid. seriously, i think you're right on the money; i've never understood the preoccupation with making sure a rotation has left-handed starters. the only time it makes sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main rival(s) is loaded with lefthanded hitters. other than that, i think you're completely right. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104866">
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 (quick: name a light-hitting black outfielder or 1b who lasted 10+ years in the bigs. i bet you can name two dozen white ones.) otis nixon. stole 300 bases. (ok, he's still light-hitting, but baseball managers don't think so, they think he, like omar moreno before him, is a perfect leadoff man. awesome defense.) darnell coles he's still around because of his 1986, when he hit 20 hr. henry cotto hasn't played 10+ years in the bigs. wasn't a full-time major-leaguer until 1988. manny mota. consistent .300 hitter. billy hatcher we'll see if he's still around in 1994 for his tenth year. herm winningham. same goes for herm. lonnie smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field) doesn't count then. gary redus redus is hardly light-hitting, plus he stole 300 bases. close to 800 ops career against lhp. dion james we'll see if he's still around in 1995 to qualify. daryl boston slugged .416 to .440 for three straight years in one of the worst hitters' parks in the nl. he's going to be one of colorado's better players this year. plus, to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in denver and buffalo and hawaii while with the white sox. vince coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent obp) coleman, assuming he makes it to 1994, was never perceived as being weak offensively, though of course he was. led nl in sb his first six years in the majors. cecil espy we'll see if he's still around in 1997. willie wilson wilson has always been overrated, but hit .300 five times in a six-year stretch and led the league in triples five times. but we can count him if he's still playing in 1994, though it'll be because he's otis nixon deluxe with slightly worse defense. gary pettis okay, if he's in the league this year, he can count, though he's also in the majors because of otis nixon syndrome. milt thompson he's not spectacular, but he's neither light-hitting nor a ten-year man. gary varsho halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there. ok, i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook, but only after the first 7 or 8. oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting black outfielder: lou brock. look it up. and curt flood. cesar geronimo. cesar cedeno. brock suffered from otis nixon disease, but he wasn't perceived as light-hitting. neither was curt flood. cesar cedeno was *not* light- note: these guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got to be close. likewise for my list. oh, and a prediction: milt cuyler. he'll have to steal a lot more bases. ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104871">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104871" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris' contribu- tion from the rest of the team's. there is only one way of determin- ing "best" in baseball. and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game. each game determines which *team* is the best that day. at the end of the season, the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division. the playoffs determine the best of the best. but the point is that the only decision making pro- cess used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re- lates to the *teams*. not the individual players. there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances. and that is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game. and you know what? there is no such method inherent in real life either. so i would assume you would endorse the notion that we cannot state, with any level of objectivity, that mother theresa has accomplished more good in this world than joseph stalin. after all, life on earth is a team effort. if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as a criteria, then fine. but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual's contribution to winning the ws - because that is the only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the context of base- ball. so until you can prove that clemens contributes to a ws cham- pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub- jective and is mere opinion. i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon. have you tried glasses? i find them quite useful. after all, there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds of evidence we present. it's too bad you feel it necessary to close your mind and eyes to knowledge; you live a poorer life as a result of that choice. heck, i'd wager that you could predict a ws winner with greater accuracy than jeanne dixon. and you know why? because i have full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary, you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level. you don't have to be rude. have you tried calling a kettle black? for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - ignoratio elenchi. i am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings (although i have, tongue in cheek, claimed that in the past). i am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual's performance from that of his team's for the purpose of comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per- in other words, in your world, you cannot objectively state that jack morris was more important to the blue jays than al leiter last in your world, that may indeed be true. fortunately, in the world the rest of us occupy, it's not. i hope you never serve on a jury, roger. i think the rest of the jury would have to kill you. "there's no way i can objectively judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty. you see, there are 2 billion other people on this planet. we have no way of knowing whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn't for all the other people on the planet. we have no way of knowing how the defendant would have acted had he been on a different planet, because living on this planet is a team effort. and no individual committs a crime totally isolated from his society; he is a part of that society. that being case, anything i have to say on his culpability would be absolute subjectivity, so i refuse to vote." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104872">
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 again, if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring this year. er..no. er..yes. if manny lee was on your team last year, your team would have been the toronto blue jays. _my_ team is the albuquerque leftturns. if manny lee were on my team, i would not be wearing a ring. nor would he. if, however, i were on manny lee's team, again. if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns. it would have been the toronto blue jays. how is that possible? he was on the albuquerque leftturns last year. how could you possibly know what team he would be on if manny lee was on his team last year. after all, manny lee wasn't on his team last year, so it's complete, unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the same team as manny lee last year, it would have been the team of the toronto blue jays. since he and lee weren't on the same team, you cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on if they had both been on the same team. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104874">
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 does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha? arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball. he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery. the injury is to his fielding hand, which is good. unfortunately, he may have some ligament damage and may require surgery, which would lay him up for a while. i don't know about jefferies apparently just a strain of some sort. he hasn't been put on the dl, so it's probably just day-to-day. --aaron 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104876">
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 as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him, the net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling i don't understand. if it is williams' lack of ability (which you say above, and i agree with) which causes him to swing at bad pitches, how will thinking that bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop chasing bad pitches. i didn't mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that specific deficiency. i meant that if having bonds bat behind him gives williams (possibly unfounded) confidence, that might translate into more hitting productivity. but you're right -- if williams' biggest problem is more physical than mental, that's less likely to make a difference. | michael zimmers | voice: 408 996 1965 | | softhelp -- suppliers to software developers | data: 408 996 1974 | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104878">
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 nhs -- net hits stolen -- extra outs compared to average fielder neb -- net extra bases -- extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lankford, r. 39 4 -12 -.007 .844 martinez, d. 21 5 -16 -.017 .660 butler, b. 1 -29 5 -.088 .716 american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops wilson, w. 47 26 0 .125 .787 felix, j. 22 0 32 .063 .713 i suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning. an outfielder who is fast and gets a good jump would be expected to catch a lot of balls, preventing both singles and doubles, and also cut off more uncatchable balls, turinging doubles into singles. however, a fielder who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies; this means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles. has anyone seen these players' positioning? do butler and felix play deep, and lankford, martinez, and wilson shallow, or is this a park effect? i thought butler liked to play shallow. david grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu "we are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary." "please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again." disclaimer: i speak for no one and no one speaks for me. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104881">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104881" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 } last night, boston red sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating seattle } 5-2. roger clemson pitch not so dominate. he walked at least 6 man in } first 6 inns. but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail. clemens struggled with his control, but was also the "beneficiary" of some pretty shoddy umpiring. but to be fair, most of the walks were early in the game, and he adjusted. he was also helped by (dare i say it?) some pretty good defense by the sox, including rivera playing at second, not his normal position. actually, clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win, considering the sox almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the 7th on mo's error catching a throw-over. } i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle, considering darwin will } faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight. must win? in april? they've already won 4 more games so far than anyone thought they would at this point of the season... i hope people aren't getting too caught up in this streak; it's been fun, but teams have 11-3 streaks all the time, and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get so much attention. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104882">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104882" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha? arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball. he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery. i don'y know about jefferies 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104888">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104888" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i didn't say that pitcher's fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire, bonds, and frank thomas was rational. i just said that it exists. but why mcgwire, and not carter? i can see some justification for bonds or thomas, because they tend to have higher batting averages, but the major difference i see between mcgwire and carter is that carter doesn't draw walks. why aren't pitchers afraid to throw strikes to carter? sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104892">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104892" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 mlb standings and scores for friday, april 23rd, 1993 (including yesterday's games) national west won lost pct. gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 10 06 .625 -- 7-3 won 1 05-02 05-04 houston astros 08 06 .571 1.0 7-3 won 1 02-04 06-02 atlanta braves 09 08 .529 1.5 4-6 lost 1 04-03 05-05 san diego padres 06 08 .429 3.0 5-5 won 1 03-04 03-04 los angeles dodgers 06 10 .375 4.0 3-7 lost 3 03-03 03-07 colorado rockies 05 09 .357 4.0 3-7 lost 1 03-03 02-06 cincinnati reds 05 10 .333 4.5 4-6 lost 1 02-04 03-06 national east philadelphia phillies 10 04 .714 -- 7-3 lost 1 06-02 04-02 montreal expos 09 06 .600 1.5 7-3 won 4 06-03 03-03 st. louis cardinals 09 06 .600 1.5 6-4 won 1 06-03 03-03 pittsburgh pirates 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 won 1 04-04 04-03 chicago cubs 07 07 .500 3.0 5-5 lost 1 04-04 03-03 new york mets 07 07 .500 3.0 5-5 lost 1 03-05 04-02 florida marlins 05 10 .333 5.5 3-7 won 1 03-06 02-04 american west won lost pct. gb last 10 streak home road california angels 09 04 .692 -- 7-3 won 3 06-02 03-02 texas rangers 08 05 .615 1.0 5-5 lost 2 04-02 04-03 minnesota twins 08 06 .571 1.5 6-4 won 1 05-04 03-02 chicago white sox 07 07 .500 2.5 5-5 won 2 02-03 05-04 seattle mariners 07 08 .467 3.0 4-6 won 2 05-03 02-05 oakland athletics 05 08 .385 4.0 3-7 lost 2 05-04 00-04 kansas city royals 05 10 .333 5.0 5-5 lost 1 03-06 02-04 american east boston red sox 11 05 .688 -- 7-3 lost 2 06-01 05-04 detroit tigers 09 05 .643 1.0 8-2 won 2 07-01 02-04 new york yankees 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 won 2 03-03 05-04 toronto blue jays 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 won 1 04-02 04-05 milwaukee brewers 05 07 .417 4.0 4-6 lost 1 02-02 03-05 cleveland indians 05 11 .313 6.0 2-8 lost 4 04-03 01-08 baltimore orioles 04 09 .308 5.5 4-6 lost 2 02-05 02-04 yesterday's scores (idle teams listed in alphabetical order) national league american league san diego padres 2 boston red sox 0 philadelphia phillies 1 seattle mariners 7 los angeles dodgers 1 chicago white sox 3 montreal expos 3 baltimore orioles 2 cincinnati reds 4 milwaukee brewers 4 pittsburgh pirates 5 minnesota twins 5 atlanta braves 3 toronto blue jays 6 florida marlins 4 kansas city royals 3 colorado rockies 2 cleveland indians 0 st. louis cardinals 5 california angels 8 san francisco giants 13 new york yankees 5 new york mets 4 oakland athletics 1 chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez | rams | | /.\ ******* _|_|_ / | lakers jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu | kings | |__ | | dodgers _|_|_ | | raiders jtcent@soda.berkeley.edu | angels |____||_|_| ******* | | |___| clippers 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104894">
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 boston (0) at seattle (7) boston ab r h bi seattle ab r h bi riles 2b 3 0 0 0 felder lf 4 0 1 1 quintana rf 2 0 0 0 cotto dh 3 0 0 0 greenwell lf 3 0 0 0 sasser ph 1 0 0 0 dawson dh 3 0 0 0 griffey jr cf 4 0 0 0 m vaughn 1b 3 0 0 0 buhner rf 3 1 0 0 calderon cf 3 0 0 0 boone 2b 4 2 3 2 cooper 3b 3 0 0 0 t martinez 1b 3 1 1 0 john valentin ss 3 0 0 0 blowers 3b 4 1 2 1 pena c 3 0 0 0 valle c 4 1 2 2 vizquel ss 4 1 2 0 totals 26 0 0 0 totals 34 7 11 6 boston 000 000 000-- 0 seattle 022 102 00x-- 7 e--greenwell. dp--boston 1, seattle 1. lob--boston 1, seattle 6. hr--boone (1) (off hesketh). sb--felder (4), blowers (1). ip h r er bb so hr hesketh (l,2-1) 3 6 5 5 2 1 1 quantrill 2 2-3 4 2 1 0 2 0 fossas 1-3 0 0 0 0 0 0 gr harris 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 k ryan 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 bosio (w,1-1) 9 0 0 0 2 4 0 hesketh pitched to two batters in the fourth so--bos: dawson, m vaughn, john valentin, cooper. sea: buhner 2, griffey jr, blowers, boone. bb--bos: riles, quintana. sea: felder, buhner, t martinez. umpires: hp--voltaggio. 1b--kaiser. 2b--johnson. 3b--mckean. t--2:12. a--13,604. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104895">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104895" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i am planning a weekend in chicago next month for my first live-and-in-person cubs game (!!!) i would appreciate any advice from locals or used-to-be locals on where to stay, what to see, where to dine, etc. e-mail replies are fine... thanks in advance! teresa hagerman ohio state university 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104896">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104896" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 :>does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released? :>last year i kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time, :>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but leyland insisted on :>keeping a pretty strict platoon. and now he is released? that doesn't :>make any sense to me. the story goes like this: spanky is too slow! if he were quicker, he would still be here. but with slaught and tom prince, they didn't want to lose prince in order to bring up that 11th pitcher. slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely! well, my question still hasn't been answered: if spanky was bad enough to release this year, why did he get so much playing time last year? yes, i know he was part of a platoon, and that's why he got more playing time than slaught, but that doesn't answer the question. if slaught was so obviously better this year, wasn't this also obvious last year, and shouldn't he have been taking away some of spanky's playing time against righties? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104897">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104897" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez? his 15 days on the dl are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? thanks for any info. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104899">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104899" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 polish and jewish are *not* mutually exclusive. i didn't mean to offend or anything, i'm just quoting stanky himself on the subject. i remember one time last year he was being interviewed by espn, and the interviewer (can't remember who), asked stanky if he was jewish because he (the interviewer) was jewish and wanted to see more jewish ballplayers. to which stanky replied, "i'm polish, not jewish." so maybe that wasn't the most pc thing for stanky to say, and maybe i was a little naive when i posted it. i think we should just devote this subject to finding actual jewish ballplayers (i myself am jewish and the only ones i ever knew until now were koufax, greenberg, and blomberg). 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104902">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104902" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 |> the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to |> death, but i haven't seen anything in rsb yet. |> gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two |> on and his club down by a run. he stroked a line drive into the |> right field corner. the ball cleared the three-foot high fence and |> went into the crowd. darryl, racing over from right center, got to |> the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he |> missed the ball. a fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt, |> reached up and caught the ball. home run. |> now i've seen the replay several times and i have concluded that |> darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially |> behind darryl's. several dodger fans with seats in the immediate |> vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with |> strawberry. what cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan |> who caught the ball never took his eye off it; he was oblivious |> to where the fielder was playing. he was also quite exuberant as |> soon as he realized he had made the catch. |> [stuff about daryl and tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted] i saw the replay several times too. no question about it. daryl missed the ball, *then* the fan caught it. daryl is so tall that he had the first shot at the ball. daryl's just whining again. i think it shows a lack of class when tommy, daryl and the dodgers blame a single fan for losing the game. what about the pitcher who threw up the gopher ball? what about the pitchers that gave up 6 runs up to that point? sorry, tommy. if it were a 2-1 game and daryl was 5 feet 2 inches tall, then maybe - just maybe - you'd have an argument. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104903">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104903" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i've been following the giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers, notesgroup, etc -- but i had my first up close and personal last night at the stick. after watching giants hitters struggle last year, barry's swing was very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even compared to clark (particularly clark as of late). it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well. i'm not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's. the giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds. there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better. clayton's defense has been superb. mcgee seems to like leading off this year. manwaring is driving the ball. so on & so forth. i hope it continues...i think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching. for myself, i think the fresh start of magowan/baker/etc has really wiped out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year. joe loos loos@cup.hp.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104904">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104904" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 buck showalter just can't win. bob wickman's pitching the game of his life through eight innings (yanks lead 6-1), so buck decides to let the kid try and get his first complete game. wickman manages to get two outs, but in between, four funs score, and all of a sudden it's 6-5, and wickman just can't get the third out. so buck goes to the bullpen, and farr gets out the first guy he faces. last night, jimmy key is pitching another in a long string of games of his life (this guy just keeps getting better!) through eight innings (yanks lead 4-0). this time, buck thinks, "i don't want a repeat of that near-fiasco with wickman, so i'll give my bullpen some work." steve howe, whose era was 54.00 coming into the game, left with it at 81.00. he didn't do too good. then farr comes in. he gives up a two-run homer, and the royals win it, 6-5. what's going on? this is already the third or fourth time this year that the bullpen has blown a lead. farr & howe have done it twice together, monteleone's done it once, and i think even habyan did it once. what's the deal? we finally have terrific starting pitching, so all of a sudden, our bullpen turns to shit! what's buck gonna do? and what's george gonna do if this continues to happen? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104905">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104905" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 bo bilinsky? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104908">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104908" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 2) astros relief corps holding together. if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective, then it's passable. there's no reasonable left-handed help, and the middle relief is iffy. tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role, but he's been injured, and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway. houston thought that boever would demand too much money, so they let him go. doug jones can lose his touch - he went from cleveland's all-star closer to the minors in a pretty short span. from what i understand, boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club. houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of players.. art doug jones is the key to houston's success. he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west. no argument at all with murphy. he scared the hell out of me when he came in last year. on the other hand, the club though enough of boever to put him into an awful lot of games (he may have led the league in appearances - he did at least at some point). he seemed to be a very viable setup guy - but i guess that's not considered that crucial by the club. i can just remember two years ago so well, though... the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far. biggio and finley just aren't doing their job of getting on base. instead of filling his role as an rbi man, bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley's job. biggio concerns me, since he usually starts the season very strong. i'm not that concerned. those guys have been relatively consistent over the years and they have no good reasons to decline (no injuries, not old, ...). i expect them to come through just fine. it's those guys that have not been consistently good that are the worrisome part, even if they are coming through right now. on a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year's uniform? there is talk that their road uniform will be (blech..) traditional grey, with the word "houston" written across the chest. if i'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange (shiver..). mclane's favorite color is red, so... this sounds like their old road unis. pretty dull. buttons or pullovers? i'll check through my uniform book to see if they've always had some orange. i'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible. i'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return. they may not have been pretty, but houston had established a long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and i liked it. well, we'll see. i've got a astros pullover shirt with the "astros stripes" across the shoulders and i have trouble making myself wear it in public. i can see why they might want that to change. gee, if they eliminate the orange, will they reupholster the seats in the astros stripes section (what used to be the gold and yellow levels - i don't know those numbers they use now). i saw a pinstripe version of an astros cap and i actually thought it looked good! marc stephenson ibm aws (advanced workstations & systems - austin,tx) disclaimer: the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position. internet->marc@austin.ibm.com vnet: marc at ausvmq ibm t/l: 678-3189 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104911">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104911" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 for that matter, how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish? the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams (?), who had a phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the 80s. mark bernstein eastgate systems, inc. 134 main street watertown ma 02172 usa voice: (800) 562-1638 in usa +1(617) 924-9044 eastgate@world.std.com compuserve: 76146,262 applelink:eastgate 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104912">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104912" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i've been a giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained about the old ballyard place. sure, it's been cold, the food lines were long, and the hired hands were surly, but this was all part of the giants mystique. or so i thought. i went to tuesday's game (3 - 1 giants over the marlins) and the 'stick was a much different place. nothing short of a dome will eliminate the wind, but everything is a lot better. the lines are a lot shorter, the bathrooms are clean and have running water, and the hired hands were very polite. the new foghorn (lights up and blows after each homerun) and the wooden fence are very nice, as are the new bleachers. the bleachers start right at the top of the fence and give a great view, and they've got beer stands at the bottome of the bleachers. the only complaint is that the electronic old-fashioned scoreboard looks electronic - could be better. these things should have been done a long time ago, but it took a real businessman (ex - safeway president peter magowan) to figure it out. just like he used to tell his checkers, "if the customers don't come back, i don't need as many checkers". this isn't a knock on bob lurie - he was a competent businessman but he didn't deal much with the general public. i'll give an example of how the level of service has changed. the onion dispenser jammed as i was using it. an attendant came over, apoligized for the problem and proceeded to fix the machine. after he was done, he cleaned the machine and said he was glad to be able to help. in the old days, there was no attendant and the folks at the concession stands would say "go to the stand 100 feet away - they might be able to help". all in all, it was a fun day craig eid e-mail address craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104913">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104913" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez? his 15 days on the dl are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? thanks for any info. the chicago tribune pitching form has perez pitching today (4/16). but given the way that buck changes his rotation so often, that could just be the work of a confused stat-page editor. adam (as16@midway.uchicago.edu) aka mercutio... obligatory go yankees for baseball season... 5338 s woodlawn ave apt 2/chicago, il 60615/(312) 667-3586 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104914">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104914" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 would the person who is running the e-mail list for kansas city royals please e-mail details regarding mailing list. if you on the list and know the info please send me info as well. please e-mail as i don't have time always to read this group john_carson@mindlink.bc.ca <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< d.john carson j & h concepts (604)589-5118 << 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104917">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104917" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i haven't been following the previous hr's. but there are two, that i saw live that would have to be up there (up where? there!). 1) rick monday's hr to bury the expos in the nl championship in 1981. it was hit off steve rogers, who is a rhp and primarily a starter. why was he used as a reliever when the 'spos had reardon and billlee warming up in the bullpen. considering monday couldn't touch lhp, lee would have been a safe bet. he wasn't even doing any drugs at that time (or so he told me and around 50 others on a recent venture into montreal. the blast wasn't the important aspect. it was the timing. seventh game, a tie game, and in the top of the 9th. the expos almost came back though... 2) mike schmidt hit one that killed the expos in 1980. so close, yet, so 3) strawberry killed a pitch on the second day of the season a couple of years ago. it went off the technical ring in the big o. it almost left the stadium! that was hit hard!!! corelmark! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104919">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104919" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 : >compiled from the last five defensive average reports, here are the career : >das for the individual players in the reports. stats are courtesy of : >sherri nichols. players are listed in descending order. : and some comments, with some players deleted. : >third basemen : >leius, scott ---- ---- ---- .653 .680 0.672 : looks good. too bad he's moving to short. : >pagliarulo, mike .631 ---- .575 .744 ---- 0.649 : this is an interesting line. his 1988 figure was slightly below average. : his 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody. part of : that may be his mobility. 1988 was with the yankees. 1990 was with the : padres, who appear to have a rotten infield. 1991 was with the twins, and : judging by leius and gaetti, the metrodome may be a good place to play : third. gaetti, gary .616 .638 .655 .632 ---- 0.637 apologies if i don't know what i'm talking about :-), but as a twins fan, i like to think they have good players in any park. not sure if i remember completely or not, but i think gaetti played with the twins in '87 for the world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4). i believe the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the angels. actually, gaetti's first year with california was 1991. his .632 da wasn't out of line with his career averages, and his .616 was actually below average in 1988. but check out the last three years at the metrodome. gaetti .655 al avg .604 pags .744 leius .653 al avg .620 leius .680 al avg .603 for the last three years, the highest das in either league have been posted by minnesota players -- three different ones, including one (pags) who was mediocre to horrible elsewhere. that doesn't *prove* a park effect is at work, any more than san diego's horrible infield numbers prove a park effect is at work. but it looks like a strong possibility to me. of factors make a player excell... i hate it when so many use the dome. it may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it's snowing and raining. and it might even be a nice play to thrid base. dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104920">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104920" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 as a philly fan as as a penna. baseball fan, i'm anxious to see the penna. series. anyone know when it starts and where the first games will be played? this is (i think) always good baseball (to me); and the pirates are also off to a good start. ed doc when is it did you say? well let me shell out here and run this handy dandy program.... $ mlb -m pit phi and the answer is: monday, 5/10 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) tuesday, 5/11 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) wednesday, 5/12 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) friday, 6/25 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) saturday, 6/26 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:05 pm) sunday, 6/27 philadelphia at pittsburg (11:35 am) friday, 7/30 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:35 pm) saturday, 7/31 pittsburg at philadelphia (5:05 pm) sunday, 8/ 1 pittsburg at philadelphia (11:35 am) monday, 9/27 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) tuesday, 9/28 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) wednesday, 9/29 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) thursday, 9/30 philadelphia at pittsburg (5:35 pm) this is a great little program - its available at an ftp site near you (unfortunatly i don't recall which one). any schedule question you got is answered with this little gem. many thanks to the author for providing this service. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104921">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104921" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 who thinks the astros are going places??? they're currently first place. they're 5-4, 5-1 on the road! i agree, lumberjack (except that they're in 2nd)! they are going places - san diego, los angeles, san francisco, cincinnati, denver, atlanta, miami, philadelphia, new york, montreal, pittsburgh, chicago, st. louis...and points in between. :-) they're 0-3 at home! they faced the phillies -- a team that got off to an 8-1 start. i'm just not used to an overly enthusiastic houston fan. i really shouldn't discourage it, so hang in there, lumberjack! (but, get ahold of that shift key, will ya?) obbase: apparently the new owner (drayton mclain (sp?)) doesn't particularly like excuses. an item in our paper (the austin american-statesman - "if you read it here, it was somewhere else first") said that he wouldn't take injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for. uh, oh. i don't want an owner that'll keep everybody on edge - i'd never gotten that feeling about him, but who knows? does to be honest, i think the city of houston loves the new owner. he has brought baseball back to houston with key acquisitions -- players that were from the houston area and wanted to play for the astros. i don't think that too many people are fearful that mclane will meddle in the team as he has already admitted that he doesn't know a whole lot about baseball. mclane is a businessman, and doesn't like excuses. he makes a valid point that injuries shouldn't be an excuse to this club. look at the depth of the bench this season.. canadele can play 7 positions; bass and james are solid outfielders and can hit well too; uribe is nice to have as well.. the pitching staff has 6 legitimate starters. we're dealing with a young houston team, so injuries shouldn't play a big role. the only threat is the bullpen -- if jonesy goes out, we may be in trouble but with the type of starters we have this season, there is less pressure on the pen. david s. schwam university of houston st1rp@jetson.uh.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104922">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104922" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i'd have to say the most impressive hrs i've ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon-raker drives... i remember one he hit circa 1976 at wrigley field that went across the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof. he whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out! my favorite was the barry foote homer that bounced on waveland and through a second floor window across the street. second though, would be the kong drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends to the park at waveland. mike timlin timlin@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104923">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104923" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 last year the american league scored 9802 runs in 1134 games, for a total of 8.6 runs per game, with 1.0 hr/game. through tuesday, the al has 477 runs in 48 games, for a total of 9.9 runs per game, and a total of 1.7 hr/game. in 1987 there were 9.8 runs per game, and 2.3 hr/game. the big question: how significant is this? have we returned to 1987? or is this just a minor abberation? some thoughts: d) i thought offense was generally down in april, rising as the weather got warm and pitchers got tired. this may be a bigger abberation from the norm than it seems. 1. i don't get a feeling that the weather has been an issue this year. there doesn't seem to be a really cold spell in north america which does makes it harder to hit (not to mention making the ball carry less) you obviously did not watch the twins in chicago. no cold spell? it's been snowing most of the week in minnesota. (5 inches in duluth last weekend) i would still put things under the too early to tell category. russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect ------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1993 ex-twins' jack morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (world series mvp!) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104924">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104924" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 does anyone know if the dick estelle who does the radio reader on npr is one in the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the jints in '64 & '65? just curious. --->paul, spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula@koufax.cv.hp.com paul andresen hewlett-packard (503)-750-3511 home: 3006 nw mckinley corvallis, or 97330 (503)-752-8424 a sabr member since 1979 
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 tigers' manager sparky anderson gets his 2,000th career win as moments ago, the tigers completed a two game sweep over the oakland a's at tiger stadium by beating the a's 3-2. here are the highlights: r h e oakland 2 9 0 detroit 3 7 1 [game description deleted] in the post game interview (on wjr radio in detroit), sparky anderson said its one of the few times he's gotten emotional in his managing career. it was a big moment for him, and i'm sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him. and what a way to get number 2,000!. [woofing deleted] --randy in another post-game interview, larussa claimed that sparky was "the best manager in basebal," explaining that to be part of the history of sparky softened the blow of losing. go tigers!!! timothy law snyder department of computer science reiss 225 georgetown university washington, dc 20057 tim@normal.georgetown.edu 
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 } in article <1993apr14.175545.3528@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (sam } millitello) says: } i'm telling you, sam, three l's. call up mom and ask. } bob vesterman. yeah, and in case even that isn't enough to prompt boy genius "sam" to pick up a paper and see how "his" name is spelled, here's another hint: the single "l" comes between the two "i"s... 
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 subject line says it all. thanks in advance. please email chuck@cygnus.eid.anl.gov go cubs! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104928">
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 i believe that rusty staub was also a jewish ball-player also, mordaci brown back in the early 20th century. he was a pitcher whose nickname was "3 fingers" brown....for obvious reasons....he had 3 fingers. 
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 writes... i've recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions. 2b career what about u. johnny hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in cleveland indians history? 225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300. a great, great second baseman. um, the header said *career.* hodapp managed about 3000 pa in his nine years in the majors. as for his "consistently over .300," make that "three years in a row, preceded by a part-time year, plus his last year, with boston." hodapp only qualified for the batting title five times. was he injured? he retired right around his 28th birthday. anyway, hodapp put up flashy numbers the year *everybody* put up flashy numbers. that was his only really good year with a bat; his other .300 years were marred by a lack of power and an inability to draw walks. only 163 of those 3000 pa were bases on balls, which does not describe a feared hitter. on the other hand, he was part of the long line of famous cleveland 2b: wambsganss, riggs stephenson, etc. jon "johnny" hodapp jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu 
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 hi, baseball fans! so what do you say? don't you think he deserves it? mean, heck, if dave winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it, is lee smith (ha), then why don't we give dave kingman a chance? or darrell evans! yeah, yeah! after the hall of fame takes in them, it can take in murray and jeff reardon. um, what? eddie murray was a superb first baseman for a *long* time. winfield as produced consistently for almsot 20 years, and excellently on several occasions. dave kingman's *best* year was like darryl strawberry's *typical* year with the mets. darrell evans, too, did a whole lot more than just hit homers, which *is* all that kong did. well, in any case, i am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody hall of fame consideration to players that are by today's standards, whom are you talking about? yes, eddie murray is marginal, but that's because he's 38 years old. he wasn't marginal for a *long* time. honestly, ozzie smith and robin yount don't belong there. they're both shortstops that just hung around for a long time. big deal. smith has hung around for a long time and fielded the position better than anyone else ever has. yount stopped being a shortstop about a decade ago, in case you hadn't one of his two mvp awards was as a centerfielder. let's be a little more selective, huh? stop handing out these honors liberally. save them for the guys who really deserve it. face it, if like whom? there are many players in the hall who aren't anywhere near as goos as the guys you're running down. isn't done, there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore. when that's already the case, by some standards. but the *bad* players in the hall are all from the 20's and 30's. recent picks have generally been certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates, the absurdity is apparent. gee, can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan? no, but who cares? was stan musial anywhere near as good as babe ruth? not really. but he obviously belongs there. the hall has generally had about the top 1% of major leaguers. as more players come through the game, more will be in that top 1%. and, yes, it's pretty easy to argue that smith,. yount, evans, winfield, etc. are in the top 1%. dave kingman on the other hand, was a liability throughout most of his career. of course, garvey *hasn't* gotten a lot of hof press, so i don't know what you mean. as for ryan, is his w-l better than morris'? that's what a lot of voters tend to look at. and morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't lead mlb history in walks allowed, either. 
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 just wondering. a friend and i were talking the other day, and we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players, past and present. we weren't able to come up with much, except for sandy koufax, (somebody) stankowitz, and maybe john lowenstein. can anyone come up with any more. i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but humor us. thanks for your help. stankiewicz? i doubt it. koufax was one of two jewish hofs: the other is hank greenberg. other good players: buddy myer, johnny kling, norm and larry sherry, ken holtzman, saul rogovin, ed reulbach. there have been over 150 jewish major leaguers. a few years ago there was an article about someone who keeps track of this in spy magazine; the article was entitled "jews on first," of course. there have also been at least two books on the subject. 
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 some evidence that is not working: take a look at the standings. it's real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place. if it's working, you don't screw it up by changing things, just because you think it ought to be different. some folks like to argue about theoretical details. i prefer to watch teams win. when the giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange the batting order. until then, i think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong, for the simple fact that it's working as it is. p.s. does the mailing list maintainer think that will clark is the best first baseman in the majors and that matt williams is a better power hitter than any other ballplayer? in the majors? i don't follow al, so i won't comment on "majors". in the nl, if i had my choice of any 1b in the league for my team, it'd be clark, and i'd hit him third. (my fantasy team has both grace and murray on it, because i've never been able to get clark. i'd take any of the three without hesitation in real life, but i think clark is it). williams: not even close. i much prefer his defense, but when he isn't headcasing it, matt has a good, solid swing and some real punch. if he drops to .230, then he wanders out of cleanup, but according to the latest baseball weekly, he's hitting .275, and in the last week, hitting .296. that's not exactly chopped liver. mostly, though, the giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. but evidently, some folks would rather be right than be first. chuq "imho" von rospach, esd support & training (dal/aux) =+= chuq@apple.com member, sfwa =+= editor, otherrealms =+= genie: mac.bigot =+= alink:chuq minor league fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (san jose giants: a/1/9) san francisco giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (the stick?not!) san jose sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (new seat: 127/tbd) 
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 i think sac flies are the only way obp can be below ba. does this seem dumb to anyone else? (the fact not the comment.) why should a batter's obp be hurt by a sac fly? especially if sac bunts don't have the same effect, since they do the same thing, but sac flies usually score a run while bunts just advance a base. but both of these situations involve the batter giving up an ab for the benefit of the team (sacrifice)? so why should it hurt their the sac bunt is a purposeful act, ordered by the manager. the batter does not go up "trying" to get a sac fly, and the evidence available indicates that there is no such ability - players can't will themselves to hit sac flies, they fly out to the same place just as often when there's nobody on third. sorry, i gotta disagree here. last time i played ball, i went up on several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance a runner to third. it's relatively easy actually... you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit a good line drive. with fastballs it's very easy, much more difficult with good breaking balls. a good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least, oh, 60% of the time? you haven't been facing major league pitching. maybe more... you have to be good at the plate, and most of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and helping their average as getting the sacrifice. the best example i know of is jerry willard in the 91 series against minnesota. all he had to do was put one in the of and the game was over. he swung waaaaaay past parallel and accomplished (barely) getting the run in safely. stats did a little study in the 1993 scoreboard book entitled "can you hit sacrifice flies on purpose?" a summary of the findings: over the 5 year period, sac-fly type fly balls were produced 17.6 percent of the time in situations where a sac fly was useful, and 17.7 percent of the time when a sac fly wasn't useful. they looked at the leaders in sac flies, and found that the leaders in sac flies - in other words, the guys you would expect to be good at it it - hit sac fly type fly balls only 3% more often when they needed to - a difference way too small to be the result of a skill. essentially, the players who hit a lot of sac flies seem to do so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often, with and without a runner on third. stats concludes "so it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies on purpose - even if they practice in the batting cage." 
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 last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now likes to play and to follow the professionals. i would like to buy him a board game so he can catch a glimpse of and practise a little of the managerial stragegy. i am not looking for a computer game or any type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner. i am after something that he and his friends can spread out over a table on a rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over. i would appreciate the names of any recommended games. i don't follow this newsgroup, so e-mail responses would be ideal. ....[michael] mgoddard@ehd.hwc.ca : michael goddard : (613) 954-0169 : fax (613) 952-9798 b9, environmental health centre, tunney's pasture, ottawa, canada, k1a 0l2 mgoddard@ehd.hwc.ca : michael goddard : (613) 954-0169 : fax (613) 952-9798 b9, environmental health centre, tunney's pasture, ottawa, canada, k1a 0l2 
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 finally, i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution, or dcon :->. you did mean "defcon," didn't you? well, no. although i admit that's more exciting than a rat killer. dale j. stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| baseball fanatic "it is considered good to look wise, especially when not overburdened with information" -- j. golden kimball 
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 oakland, california, sunday, april 25th, 1:05 pm pdt: jose mesa vs. storm davis. you have been warned. * gary huckabay * "outside?! that was right down the bleedin' pipe, * * "balder than any * kenny! i realize i don't have great control, but * * dave on the net. * c'mon!" "gary, that was a styrofoam cup. the * * really." * plate's a foot to your right. throw the ball." * 
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 wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the twins this year (rickey bones). nice post chuck, but you made just one mistake. bones is a right-handed pitcher. however, hrbek's grand slam came off graehme lloyd, a lefty. --salty 
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 dateline tue, 20/apr93 03:38. in , antonio pera of icop@csa.bu.edu wrote to all at 1:133/411, ap> recently, i heard the red sox on wrol a ap> spanish-speaking radio station. i thought it was so ap> unreal. the red sox in spanish? anyway, i want to find ap> out how widespread this is? being a ny native, i know ap> the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes. i ap> wuold think that la,sd,texas and fla are on in spanish. ap> are there any spanish-speaking networks or is this a ap> local for the last couple of years, the braves have been fostering a program to reach to the latin american audience. this has included licensing spanish fan magazines, encouraging spanish co-broadcasts, and marketing programs directed at the latin american community. one of the biggest heros to the latin american audience has been francisco cabrerra (a fact of which he was slightly embarrassed!). one funny story is that during spring training, the braves played a game in mexico. this game was broadcast back to atlanta in spanish. it took the broadcasters a few innings to get a rythm going because they had to keep changing their location. seems it took a while to find a place where they could get a clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game! david deitch, (gis) atlanta fidonet<==>uucp / \ uucp: wittsend!gisatl!deitch gateway & faq / oo \ internet: deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org (_| /_) david deitch, _`@/_ \ _ galaxy information system administrator | | \ \\ (gis) atlanta (404)252-1699 | (*) | \_ )) ______ |__u__| / \// user: david deitch / fido \ _//|| _\ / via fidonet node: 1:133/411.0 (________) (_/(_|(____/ (jm) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104955">
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 just watch me. mattingly is a below average fielder. before you start up, yes, i have proof. there are really only two adequate ways to measure fielding prowess. the first, which has the advantage of being applicable to older players, since it uses raw data available for almost all of mlb history, is the total chances per game method favored by the total baseball people among others. it basically says that you measure a fielder by how many balls he gets to. but it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely useless for first basemen. from the raw stats, there is no way to tell which of a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders, and which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether a double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3. fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and it thus favors first basemen who play deep, reaching a lot of balls but forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently. it also hurts first baseman who play behind left-handed pitching staffs and thus face few left-handed batters. a better method, but newer and based ondata that has only been collected over the last few years, measures the percentage of balls hit into the part of the field the guy is responsible for. this is better; of course, it still isn't all of a first baseman's some references: mattingly's 1992 defensive rating, stats method, from mike gimbel's baseball player and team ratings: -1. defensive average, which uses larger (and probably better) zones, has mattingly tied for second in the league. on the other hand, he has contributed 233 runs by his batting actions, a pretty healthy number. while 233 batting runs is good, it is mostly in the past; the runs he produced in 1986 don't say much about his value in 1993. david grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu "we are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary." "please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again." disclaimer: i speak for no one and no one speaks for me. 
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 sigh. here we go again. actually, several scdn's stated that there were no definable skills that would make a hitter more likely to perform better in clutch situations vs. non-clutch situations, however one might choose to define "clutch". right. can *you* define such a skill? must i? if i were to say that batting average is a predictor that can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get a hit on a particular plate appearance, is that only valid if i can define the skill in hitting a baseball? that's all i've said, except i used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations. and elsewhere on this thread sherri nichols repeats her position that batting average in clutch situations is a meaningless statistic. for predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless. at least if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it. i did not say i could predict the future. i've suggested that the statistic is not necessarily meaningless. here's the data for this situation: non-clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo 1539 452 .294 259 59 .228 samuel 1564 383 .245 278 83 .299 if you were to have been the reds manager at that time, i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch- hitting samuel. i'm sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance. you just wouldn't have used this particular aspect of prior performance. is this not correct? i'll try to avoid being insulting. but it's difficult when you so cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an "i don't pretend to understand, but..." nobody is denying that there are people who have hit well in the clutch in the past. but i challenge you to find a method to predict who will hit well in the clutch in the *future*. which, after all, is what you are claiming *you* can do. since: one more time. i did *not* claim to be able to predict the future. i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo. and i am not dismissing your work. i'm stating my opinion. you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work. fine. we have plenty of data. obviously our preconceived biases must be coloring our work, since you *know* clutch hitting is a well-defined and consistent skill, all of our failures not-withstanding. so i challenge you to prove it! i guarantee you that *if* you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability, you will have *plenty* of happy sdcns dancing around you. i did not say that clutch-hitting is well defined. i said that the data is significant to me. i did not say that it is a consistent skill. i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances. but you aren't going to win any support by merely stating a position and claiming 'they are stupid, so i must be right'. and, [big sigh] i have not not ever called you or anyone else on r.s.b. "stupid". it is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases. yeah. hindsight is always 20-20. doesn't that make you bright? this is a stupid argument and you know it. ah. i knew we could get to the name calling. and there's that word you like so much. a suggestion? take data from 1990-1991, and attempt to come up with some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in 1992. if that works, we can then attempt to apply it to 1993 and beyond. wait a minute. i thought i first had to define clutch hitting. do i, or don't i? you have made strong statements. now back them up or be proven a total idiot. i made two statements in my post. 1. i am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting. 2. i would have hit for sabo. as for #2, many of us make a number of written statements through this media about what we think will happen in baseball. i'm not shy about it. i'll make the statement again. i believe that by season's end that chris sabo's batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch situations. i can't prove that it will happen, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see. here's another one for you. in 1989 - 1991 joe carter's batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non-clutch situations each year. i presume you think this is random. non-clutch: 1585 ab 411 h .259 clutch: 338 ab 68 h .201 so what could we expect in 1992 from mr. carter? well, his composite ba through 1989 was .268; through 1990 was .262; through 1991 was .263, so i think we have a pretty good idea of what kind of batting average he can produce. in 1992 he hit .264. not surprising, huh? also in 1992: non-clutch: 536 ab 144 h .269 clutch: 86 ab 20 h .233 no, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers. it just makes me think that in 1993 joe carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non-clutch situations. as for #1 (above), i have plenty of company. john dewan of stats,inc. is the editor of the scouting report wherein the statistics regarding clutch hitting are compiled, reported and referenced in the text. bill james makes numerous references to a player's ability to hit well in the clutch. i am not saying that i can predict the future any more than they are. you (and others) are saying that your work renders their statements (and mine) meaningless. i don't accept that, which in your words proves that i am a "total idiot". "stupid". "total idiot". my, my. such hostility. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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 like clinton and reno, i accept full responsibility for this senseless disaster. my wife and i picked this game to go to and thus caused the return of the pre-season-projected sox offense. like all no-no's bosio was good, lucky (hard grounder by vaughn off t. martinez' glove but straight to boone who threw to bosio at first, 3-4-1), and backed by good defense (many non-trivial groundouts). the game was amazingly fast, as the sox tended to go down quickly and hesketh was also working fast. the sox relief pitching was ok -- the runs off quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and a hard line single which greenwell let get past him trying for a catch. greenwell's mental stability is a serious concern (i guess it has always been, but his quirks were amusing back when he was an mvp candidate). wednesday he got in a huff with johnson a after striking out on a bad inside pitch (apparently johnson made an "ok, i've got to stay focused" gesture which iron mike interpreted as taunting), and struck out to heavy booing the next two times. as valentine noted, last night he came up in the first after riles and quintana had walked to open the game. can you say "take the first pitch"? not mike, who dribbled it into a 6-4-3. the pi quoted bosio that this was a "batting practice fastball". next time up he also hit the first pitch, a hard liner straight to kgjr in center. he also made the pathetic error and failed to catch boone's hr (which looked comparable to the ball lance johnson caught on the highlight reel that night). is riles suppsoed to be good defensively? i couldn't tell from the field angle but his range looked bad, and he coughed a dp that cost a run or two. why was he leadoff? i hope fletcher gets well soon. also on lineups, pinella put bret boone fifth for reasons beyond me. it seemed to work, as he was 3-4 with a hr and some good defense (a wag behind us said "he sure don't want to go back to calgary!") there is a theory that you put a leadoff type fifth because they'll likely lead off the second (as boone did). well, now we face the hot angels and another power pitcher in langston. a reminder that contest entries are open through next wednesday -- i expect a surge of pessimism. by the way, ties will be broken by earliest entry. one entry per person or pseudonym, please, and easy on the pseudonyms. dave mb 
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 can anyone out there tell me why they call left-handed pitchers i dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums, the batter faces northeast and so when a pitcher is on the mound, his left arm is to the south, hence the term. "southpaw"? also the story on how the term originated. thanks!! go cubs! prediction: they will finish over .500 this year without winning the east. 
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 but it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely for first basemen. from the raw stats, there is no way to tell which of a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders, which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3. fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and but ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way. range is not the only thing that makes a good firstbaseman. the ability to field all sorts of balls thrown to him: digging some out of the dirt, stretching for others, and so forth is important. thus, putouts do provide some information. maybe what we need is a comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the first baseman vs. how many he actually got. jim mann stratus computer jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com 
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 i'm a season ticket holder and have a pair of s.f. giants tickets available for every game except opening day. they're located in lower reserved, section 3, row 2. they're two rows (about 5 feet) behind the mvp lower box seats that go for $17.25/apiece. i'm selling my tickets for $25/pair. here's the schedule for the next 8 weeks. e-mail me if you're interested. note - all times are pacific daylight savings time apr 28 new york 7:35pm apr 29 new york 1:05pm apr 30 montreal 7:35pm may 1 montreal 1:05pm may 2 montreal 1:05pm may 4 philadelphia 7:35pm may 5 philadelphia 1:05pm may 7 los angeles 7:35pm may 8 los angeles 1:05pm may 9 los angeles 1:05pm may 17 houston 1:05pm may 18 houston 1:05pm may 19 houston 1:05pm may 20 cincinnati 1:05pm may 21 cincinnati 7:35pm may 22 cincinnati 1:05pm may 23 cincinnati 1:05pm june 3 pittsburgh 7:35pm june 4 pittsburgh 7:35pm june 5 pittsburgh 1:05pm june 6 pittsburgh 1:35pm june 8 st. louis 1:05pm june 9 st. louis 1:05pm june 11 chicago 7:35pm june 12 chicago 1:05pm june 13 chicago 1:05pm june 21 san diego 7:35pm june 22 san diego 7:35pm june 23 san diego 1:05pm june 24 colorado 1:05pm june 25 colorado 7:35pm june 26 colorado 1:05pm june 27 colorado 1:05pm craig eid e-mail address craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com 
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 subject sez it... wondering if either team are in town that weekend (5-30/5-31). i can probably get phillies tix, as the vet can hold a bunch (and i hope they're still in 1st but it's late may, and...). camden yards is a problem - is there any way of getting in the park w/o an sro ticket? any advice if there at home? joe leonard jle@world.std.com p.s. please reply directly, to keep the net down to a dull roar... 
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 what's with john franco? the mets are hardly using him. i heard he was completely recovered, but now i'm not so sure. if there is anybody out there with information about franco, i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line. jason lee jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu sf giants e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0 the most beautiful equation in mathematics. magic for all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: number: "it might have been." john greenleaf whittier 148 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104973">
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 i've been a braves fan for as long as i've been watching baseball (almost 12 years now.) i say that just tp preface what i'm about to post. this braves team is made up of slow starters. people are amazed that the braves aren't hitting. don't be. they weren't hitting last year at this time, nor were they the year before. they had slow aprils and mays in the 1991 and 1992 seasons, and yet they still managed to go to the series in those years. well, this team is no different, so why should we be suprised at their slow start? they started that way for the past two years, and they'll be that way until the richmond club makes it to the majors. judge their offense in june or july when things start to average out. i'm just happy that the reds have gotten off to such a poor start. the giants always do well in the early part of the season, but they'll be out of the race by july (just like the last few years). unless bond's developes a knuckelball, their staff will get rocked by mid-june. wow! you really know how to hurt a guy. guess i shouldn't bother watching any more games. it's already been decided. :^) randy palermo luigi@csd.sgi.com fax: (415)961-6502 silicon graphics computer systems, 2011 n. shoreline blvd mt. view, ca 94039 "play an accordion, go to jail. that's the law" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104974">
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 i don't pretend to understand statistical analysis. well, we agree on the last part.:-) cool. and thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly name-calling of others. :) one of the basic things you need to have in a statistic to be able to predict a player's performance on it in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year. a player's batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year. the basic problems with something like "clutch" batting average - overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero. adding to the sample size doesn't seem to help much. actually, i think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem. it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs. clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve. (the x-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting vs. non-clutch; the y-axis being the number of players.) certainly there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell. my *supposition* is that if we were to find the same players consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players (as opposed to all baseball players). as a counterexample to what you showed, consider the following two players from 1984-1987: non-clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado 1060 260 .245 254 78 .307 lemon 1643 457 .278 256 57 .223 if you had had these two players in 1988, by your logic, in those "clutch" situations, you'd bat maldonado for lemon in a blink of an eye. well, in 1988, maldonado hit .267 in "non-clutch" and .190 in "clutch", while lemon hit .254 in "non-clutch" and .313 in "clutch". before you accuse me of completely cooking the data, you won't hear those kind of accusations from me. it is interesting that you selected maldonado, because he is someone whom i have also looked at. he has been a very inconsistent hitter (in terms of ba), hitting in 1989 - 92 .217, .273, .250, .272 admittedly, he has been traded between leagues as well as clubs. his clutch hitting record is equally inconsistent. so, for my purposes in 1993 i would not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based on his prior performance. i don't know how i would have felt in 1988, but you may indeed be right. when i looked at sabo i found a more consistent record of hitting, and a more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately below his non-clutch ba. ditto for joe carter. this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic. must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity? is it impossible (or irrational) to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base? btw, correlating players' _overall_ batting average from '84-'87 with '88 gives a correlation coefficient of 0.59, which is significant at something better than the 99.9% confidence level. correlating their (clutch-non-clutch ba) for the same period gives a correlation of 0.088, significant at no level of any interest. i completely accept that reasoning. again, what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent actually, it's technically incorrect to say that we can't predict future clutch performance. it's more correct to say that we can't predict future clutch performance with any skill. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104975">
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 i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station. the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles' games. if you respond to me i will summarize for the list. wip is the real home of the eagles. merril reese and the birds on fm radio...what a joke. a "classic rock" station at that! whats the sports world coming to? when i think of a good .signature, it will be right about here! until then, this stupid message will have to do. go phillies!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104976">
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 sigh. here we go again. you started it... for predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless. at least if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it. i did not say i could predict the future. you most certainly did! non-clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo 1539 452 .294 259 59 .228 samuel 1564 383 .245 278 83 .299 sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel. yet you would pinch-hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter. right? i'd call that "predicting the future". if you were to have been the reds manager at that time, i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch- hitting samuel. i'm sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance. you just wouldn't have used this particular aspect of prior performance. is this not correct? right. i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past. overall performance, l/r splits, even matching hitting/pitching styles. all of these will give me some advantage if used properly. even if all else were equal, there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance. and in this case, everything else pointed to sabo. one more time. i did *not* claim to be able to predict the future. i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo. that comes down to the same thing. when perez left sabo in, he was predicting the future, the next ab. he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel. by supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite. and i am not dismissing your work. i'm stating my opinion. you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work. well, yes. you are aware of its existance. you claim to be incapable of understanding it (though i suspect you are simply unwilling). yet you rather forcefully state the opposite. you don't seem to think the work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important). i'd say this is insulting. i did not say that it is a consistent skill. i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances. right! this is the beef. it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under *any* circumstances. at least none that we've been able to come up with. if you know of some where it *is* an indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret. it is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases. most certainly. as i have repeatedly stated, if you can come up with a study which even *hints* at a consistent clutch ability, i would love it! however the straightforward attempts at such a study have all failed miserably. yeah. hindsight is always 20-20. doesn't that make you bright? this is a stupid argument and you know it. ah. i knew we could get to the name calling. and there's that word you like so much. well, it was a stupid argument. (are you honestly debating that???) sure, we know sabo didn't get a hit. we have no idea whether samuel would have done any better or not. one ab most certainly doesn't prove anything! i believe that by season's end that chris sabo's batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch situations. i can't prove that it will happen, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see. is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year? or is this a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit (xxx amount?) worse in the clutch than overall? if you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and see. but the second is a much stronger statement. in fact, it suggests a rule. we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years. i think you will agree that if the rule didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do any better this year. right? here's another one for you. in 1989 - 1991 joe carter's batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non-clutch situations each year. i presume you think this is random. i'm not going to get into case analysis. sure, you can find somebody who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well. you can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in '92. no, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers. it just makes me think that in 1993 joe carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non-clutch situations. gambler's fallacy. unless there is reason to expect consistency, a run proves nothing. can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next? i've seen a detailed study of why i *shouldn't* expect it to correlate. "stupid". "total idiot". my, my. such hostility. the "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid. (and i don't see how you can deny it.) as for "total idiot"? yes. if you prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might suggest that you are wrong, i would say the term fits nicely. so tell me? does the term fit? or do you have an open mind? 
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 } > griffey, well, most of it are intentional walks. } are you sure about this? i'd say pitching around him is more likely. yeah, maybe that is more likely. but from the mariners-tigers series, it seems like every time there are base runners, the pitchers seem to purposely pitch around him or give him a free pass. the funny thing was that griffey was struggling up until the last game of the four game series if i remember correctly. - chung yang 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104980">
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 i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first 15-day period was up? i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was wondering if that was new. i thought he was just letting it heal. as of today's usa today (4/23) john wetteland should come off of the dl tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend (i forget who they play.) another question, is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone. i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok. any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated. thank you for your derek lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer, but it will be kind of a bullpen by committee also. | charles james | "if you don't care where you're going, | | lehigh university | then you ain't lost" | | cej0@lehigh.edu | anonymous person in csc 252 | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104981">
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 my prediction: the red sox-cubs series and vikings-broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world. so, which one will officially be the end of the world? ;) i can see the end of the ws now: "well folks, here it is. bottom of the ninth; bases loaded; full count on sandberg in this 1-1 game. clemens winds, heres the pitch. swung on and it is a line drive to center. zupcic moves to his left. he's there and..... *****zot****** | joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com |warning: elvis impersonating can be hazardous| | joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | to your health -- it sure won't help| | | your reputation. | | i bike, therefore i am! | go red sox! go celtics! | | | go seahawks! go sonics! | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104982">
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 in what seems to be a classic mitchell move, he drops a fly ball, and injures his hamstring on the same play. haven't heard anything on how serious the leg is. --->paul, who me? bitter about mitchell's performance in seattle? nah. we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula@koufax.cv.hp.com paul andresen hewlett-packard (503)-750-3511 home: 3006 nw mckinley corvallis, or 97330 (503)-752-8424 a sabr member since 1979 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104984">
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 my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates ac>(though i'd prefer to see texas.) hi tony.i think that i might be able to help you out!the rangers are here in toronto thursday july 8th through sunday july 11th and tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in advance.although i don't have a ticket broker's telephone number off hand if you give me a couple of days i will be able to get a hold a= of a couple.the blue jays ticket info # is (416)341-1111 or if you want to order by credit card,call (416) 341-1234.if you let me know,when you want the tickets i can save you a possible long distance call.if all else fails i might be able to pull a few strings and get you a pair.let me know whats happening. drew carley,toronto canada þ deluxeý 1.25 #2177 þ go away,or i shall taunt you a second time! canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104985">
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 to all the braves doubters: don't worry. the bats will come alive, and the braves will come around. the pitching is solid, and as long the braves don't have serious injuries to the starting rotation, they'll continue to pitch well. heck, with the five starters on the braves rotation, they could even sustain an injury to one of the five (i hope this doesn't happen, though). the bats are there... pendleton will certainly bat over .280, justice is catching fire, bream, nixon, sanders, gant... well, there's too much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer. right now, the cleveland indians have 7 players batting over .300! but i certainly wouldn't their seven for our respective seven (though wouldn't the braves be something right now with their pitching and 7 players batting over .300?). the bullpen... well, it is suspect. but when the bats come alive, the guys in the bullpen will be of less concern. so anyway, i believe the braves will be tough to beat this season. i'm not saying the braves have automatically won the division, but i'm optim- istic about their season (though it's awful painful to watch them at times right now). go braves!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104988">
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 actually, i think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem. it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs. clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve. (the x-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting vs. non-clutch; the y-axis being the number of players.) certainly there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell. right. most definitely. my *supposition* is that if we were to find the same players consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players (as opposed to all baseball players). this may be the root of the confusion... please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind. note that i am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand. suppose we have a simplified lotto game. you pick a number from 1-10 and win if that number is drawn. suppose we have a large population of people who play this game every week. in the first year of the game, approximately 1/4 of the population will win 7 or more times. in the second year of the game, 1/4 of those 7-time winners will again be 7-time winners. in the third year of the game, 1/4 of those who won 7 or more times in each of the first two years will win 7 again. suppose i started with 1024 people in my population. after three years, i have 32 people who have consistently, in each of the last three years, won 140% or more the number of times expected. do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game? no. because we know there is no skill involved. nothing about these "consistent winners" can influence their chances of winning. but suppose we *don't* know whether or not there is a chance that skill might be involved. perhaps some of the people in our population are psychic, or something. how would we test this hypothesis? we can look for correlations in the population. now most of the population will show zero correlation. but our psychics should show a high positive correlation (even if they aren't very good psychics, they should still manage to win 7 or more times most years). net result? a small positive correlation over the entire population. this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic. must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity? is it impossible (or irrational) to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base? well, zero correlation is zero correlation. you mention that sabo has hit poorly in the clutch over the last 3(?) years. but if we look at the past, we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse as they are to remain consistent. the length of the streak doesn't seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be clutch or choke the next year. is there any reason to expect *this* streak to be different from past streaks? now if it were true that "75% of all three-year streaks remained true to form", then we might have something useful. but then we wouldn't have zero correlation. instead we have "50% of all three-year streaks remain true to form, and 50% of all three-year streaks reverse". you look at those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more likely to choke this year". but it would be equally valid to look at those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more likely to be clutch this year", since the probabilities are split 50-50 each i completely accept that reasoning. again, what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent then we would have something useful. and we would also have a positive correlation. but for every individual that exhibits such a pattern and holds true, there is another who exhibits such a pattern and then reverses. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104989">
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 note: i'm not posting this as part of an argument with roger meynard, but as an independent sort of thread. i do actually quote some things that roger meynard wrote, but it might be better to think of this as "sampling" his post (in the hip-hop sense) because it fits in with what i want to say. but the point is that the only decision making pro- cess used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re- lates to the *teams*. not the individual players. there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances. and that is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game. there's an interesting parallel between this way of viewing a baseball team and some people's conception of a biological organism. in the biology context, we would very likely read "fitness" for "the score of the game" and "organisms" for "teams". how we interpret "players" is trickier, but either "organs", or "genes" might seem reasonable choices depending on what point we were trying to make. a "genes" interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case, but that would be a different and probably longer post. if, however, we take the "organ" view, then our knowledge of biology should make us pause before we start saying things like "species x is more fit than species y because of a better organ z". given what we know about the interdependence of organs, we would often be suspicious of such claims. (but note that this type of argument is quite often made when you map "species x" onto 'humans', and "organ z" onto 'brain'). on the other hand, some statements of this kind do seem more reasonable than others, as far as we can test them (e.g. 'brain' above might be more reasonable than 'pancreas' assuming no gross pathology, particularly if species y is a primate). even when you make such statements, you should be concerned with the functioning of the whole organism, and the possibility that one organ might be more crucial for one species and a second organ in another. (not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial in some third species.) however, if we are non-vitalists with any kind of reductionsit streak, we will want to say that an organism is not some completely magical unanalyzable "whole" but an intriguing process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are potentially observable. some of these processes might be localized to particular organs, while others may be distributed across multiple organs. in a way, this is just like a baseball team, except that i think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved in baseball are *much* simpler and less numerous than in most organisms. to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab- solutely that player a's team would have played better with player b in their lineup. sheer speculation. impossible to ascertain. one thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do. but, of course, this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they can, and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the absence of certainty. most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation, but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research. if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better [than another pitcher] with those statistics as a criteria, then fine. in this cases, we're seeing the word "statistics" means "summary of observed events", where the events themselves can be viewed as the output of some process, and possibly inputs for other processes. thus, if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together into the functioning organism, data in the form of statistics might give us a basis to test particular hypotheses. but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual's contribution to winning the ws - because that is the only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the context of baseball. this statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again. fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment; you might be fit in one situation and not another. moving to baseball, it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an environment including all the other teams in the league. in at least a nominal sense, the division winners are the fittest teams in the league, in that they (on average) had better fitness scores than any of their competing opponennts. but in a real sense, there is a fairly large random component in the performance of each team that is difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors intrinsic to (or interesting for) baseball. the same is true in biology. but here is also no direct biological equivalent of the world series in basebal. in the world series, the random component may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played, and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement where they were originally successful. it might be fun to watch, but it's unclear what it all really means. now just one more un-related point: i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon. on the other hand, you have seen some of us who can predict the outcome of the divisional races better than a random assignment of teams to finishes, and maybe some of us (e.g. me) who can do this better than the other participants in this forum on a regular basis. but this is probably only due to the fact that a 162-game schedule gives you a little hope that bad hops aren't the only difference between the winners and the losers. moreover, you've had the opportunity to see some analysis of the world series situation that makes the strong claim that *nobody* can predict the ws winner with reliably greater accuracy than a coin biased only to reflect the well-known home vs. road effect on winning percentage. the stats are a nice hobby and that's about it. there is no new knowledge being produced. since stats are summaries of events, it's true that if you know the events you can derive the stats. but if somebody is trying to understand the process behind the stats, then the stats produce new knowledge, and some of this might even be reliable, repeatable, and useful. speaking of which, i should get back to producing knowledge in a different field. that is, of course, if i can produce knowledge even though i'm relying on stats to do it. 
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 twins update -- posted april 22, 1993 jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins, but of the american league as well. going into today's game, deshaies was 3-0 with a 1.74 era. deshaies allowed 2 earned runs in 6 2/3 innings, meaning his era will climb slightly. deshaies, who came to mn via a trade with philadelphia which sent david west there, continues to make andy macphail look like a true genius. minor correction: hartley came in the west trade to phily. deshaies signed as a free agent ($1.7m over 2 years). he pitched for san diego last year. maynard brandt cray research, inc. 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104992" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 based only on this data*, i don't see any reason to pinch-hit for sabo, or any other player who had been a poor clutch hitter in the past. but there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch-hit. does the pinch-hitter give you a platoon advantage? (any portion of sabo's clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a real ability, even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting.) do you have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run? do you have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves? hey! what's this? we agree! no platoon advantage (sabo vs. samuel). both players have a reputation of being excellent fastball hitters, and both have a reputation of being fooled too often with slow curves and change ups. sabo has more power, and a little bit of a better batting eye. samuel is noted as an agressive free-swinger. sabo has more homerun power. both players started the game hitting below .200. there may have been some game considerations that might have prompted perez to want to reserve samuel for use later. but the game *was* on the line, and samuel never did get in. given all of this, i don't see a lot to suggest pinch-hitting, nor do i see anything to suggest no pinch-hitting. there is, of course, the clutch-hitting information. but if that's useless... then again. if it's not... david grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu "we are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary." "please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again." disclaimer: i speak for no one and no one speaks for me. mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104993">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104993" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team? who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers? (hint: nolan ryan isn't either) what two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams? who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or more career bases for the same team? no fair peeking at your baseball stats.... phil allen texdude@cs1.bradley.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball104996">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball104996" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons: 1) publicly humiliating his players; 2) knuckling under to his players wishes. i did not write that! in fact, those statements were a rebuttal to an earlier posting that i made, and this was culled from my *strong* rebuttal to those statements. please! slander. shame. there is a fine line between "getting players' input" and "knuckling under to players' demands." a manager, much like a military officer, needs to have his (her) players' complete obedience and respect during a game. after the game, it's no big deal, but when there is no time to do more than react, players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart (see: boston red sox, ff. :) ) "after the game, it's no big deal" ???? after the employees leave the workplace, it doesn't matter what they say about the boss or the company? puhlease. strawberry's demeanor as represented by the media, often sounds like demands. i suspect that a comment like "i enjoy hitting fourth; i'm used to it" would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry. russ porter quoted strawberry as saying, "i feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and i think i perform best in that role." (paraphrased by my memory and bias.) that seems like a fairly non-petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question like, "how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order?" first, it's ross porter. second, i am really tired of seeing the kind of response that indicates that all i do is parrot what some media person says or writes. i have a brain. if i choose to characterize something in a certain fashion, it's because that is what i believe to be accurate. it is not just because some unnamed "mediot" made the characterization. a more media-sensitive player might answer "the manager knows what he is doing. if he thinks that batting me third will help the team, then i am all for it." we'd ignore that answer as brown stuff, so it seems a little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl's response as petulant. i did *not* brand darryl's response as petulant, because i never heard any response from darryl. i did call him a name. i referred to him as a primadonna. someone else concluded that i did that because i "hate" him. i don't hate him. i think he's a primadonna. if you disagree, fine. but stop putting words in my mouth. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105001">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105001" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the subject line says it all. what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save? imho this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all of baseball. my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on-deck circle. also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs. i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners/savers/etc. for instance, a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win. has this pitcher earned a win, no i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score. assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth. his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win. the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" i bleed the blue of dodgers and even like lasorda spaghetti sauce. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105003">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105003" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 chris bosio, a seattle m's pitcher, just no hit the red sox 7-0!!! this is the second no hitter in seattle history!! (randy johnson got the first) also, this was bosio's first career no hitter! this is mlb first no hitter this year! go m's.. trivia time!!! ok, we all know that dave "my batting average is down in the" valle caught chris bosio's no hitter last night (and is batting over .300, btw). here is the question: who caught randy johnson's no-hitter in june of 1990. (hint: not dave valle :-)) \\\ the mad kobold *is*: douglas todd norris (n9143349@henson.cc.wwu.edu) \\\ \\\ depeche mode, u2, they might be giants, inxs, o.m.d., a-ha, the police \\\ \\\ "exercise your basic rights, we could build a building site \\\ \\\ from the bricks of shame is built the hope." depeche mode, if you want \\\ \\\ van. canucks sea. supersonics sea. mariners sea. seahawks \\\ \\\ 2-0 (1st rnd) 53-26 (2nd) 6-8 (5th) 2-14 (5th) \\\ \\\ congratulations to chris bosio (mariners) on his no-hitter of boston! \\\ 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105008">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105008" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 is there anyone out there running a chicago national league ballclub list? if so, please send me information on it to... andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu thanks! |o| _ | chihuahua charlie | ou is not responsible |o| |o| | | | academic user services | for anything anywhere, |o| |o| |||| | the university of oklahoma | except for that one |o| |o| |_| | andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu | incident where 200... |o| |o|____________________________________________________________________|o| 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105009">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105009" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 mark singer brings up the strawberry incident, where he lost a homerun and the fan caught it. |> before each dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech |> wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that |> are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any |> that are in the field of play. was the fan wrong? should he have |> been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility |> of interference? yes, i think he should have done more to get out of the way. as much as fans want to catch a ball, they really should be aware that winning the game is more important. as a dodger fan, he has to be aware that this is the home stadium, and that entails helping the home team win in any way possible. as soon as the ball was hit that far, his first instinct should be to root for darryl to catch it, not to try to catch it himself, particularly when he is sitting that close. i enjoy the attitude of the wrigley fans, where they are against visiting team home runs so much, they actually throw them back on the now, this has nothing to do with whether darryl could have caught it or not. sure, he probably screwed up, but the fan should realize his first responsibility is to get out of the way and help the team win. daniel@caldera.usc.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105011">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105011" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 as for ryan, is his w-l better than morris'? that's what a lot of voters tend to look at. and morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't lead mlb history in walks allowed, either. despite walks and loses, ryan deserves to be in the hall of fame (imho) based only on his ho-hitters. the strike-out records are an extra. what do people think about andre "400 hr" dawson for the hof? name: ken kubey or qb | reading, editing or printing of this text address: kubey@sgi.com | without the express written consent of disclaimer: the usual | major league baseball is prohibited. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105012">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105012" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i've been following the giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers, notesgroup, etc -- but i had my first up close and personal last night at the stick. after watching giants hitters struggle last year, barry's swing was very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even compared to clark (particularly clark as of late). it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well. i'm not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's. the giants always hit maddux well, but it was interesting that maddux did not pitch around bonds to get to clayton last night. he threw 2 straight fastballs over the plate to bonds in the 1st last night, got away with the first one, but bonds hit the second one out of the park. then in the 3rd, when clark was at third base with one out, maddux did not intentionally walk bonds, and bonds dropped a single to left-center. the giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds. there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better. clayton's defense has been superb. mcgee seems to like leading off this year. manwaring is driving the ball. so on & so forth. the braves announcers pointed out that mcgee as a leadoff hitter has not scored a run yet. he will always hit around .300, but i'm concerning about his on-base percentage. the key in the lineup is matt williams, he has to stay hot so that bonds can hit with runners on base. i hope it continues...i think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching. the pitching gets a set back as bud black is placed on the dl. burba has done a superb job filling in so far, he looks like a different pitcher from last year. however, swift is terrible in both of his starts. with burba moving into the rotation, mike jackson is the only right-handed reliever aside from rod beck, he'll get a lot of actions. i also hope that dusty can manage his bullpen better than roger craig, especially on beck. i was concerned when beck was used for 3 straight days earlier this week. for myself, i think the fresh start of magowan/baker/etc has really wiped out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year. so far so good! edward hui 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105014">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105014" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 sherri nichols writes spanky is too slow! if he were quicker, he would still be here. but with slaught and tom prince, they didn't want to lose prince in order to bring up that 11th pitcher. slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely! tom prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher. think of him as a young dann or a young don bordello... i can't begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy, who's been in aaa most of the last 5 seasons. the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options, then eventually sent prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep. he's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't clear waivers now? why would they care? there's a strong possibility that the bucs have absolutely no other catching prospects in the minors at this point -- at least nobody ready for any serious aaa/majors duty. the main reason they might have stayed with prince could be just age, especially if spanky was creeping toward his mid-30s or something. all things considered, though, i'd be a lot more comfortable with spanky behind the plate than prince. isn't there decent backup backstop out there looking for work? sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105015">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105015" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i'm sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by rookie j.t. snow of the california angeles. other than the fact that his father was a star receiver with the l.a. rams and is now a radio personality in los angeles and j.t. came from the yankees organization i don't know much about j.t. if anyone has info and background on the young fenom....please post. by the way, for those of you not following his exploits he has hit four home runs in three days. two last night. he has also delivered the winning hit a couple of times for the angeles in this young season. thanks... michael from usc 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105019">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105019" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 uhhhhh. winfield has a carrer slugging average of .480 peak...no during winfield's peak his slugging average was an average of 129 points the league average. mel ott's is 278, hank aaron's is 266, and frank robinson's is 304. in their "worst" years of their peak, they are still better than winfield in his "best" peak year. winfield's best is 158 above the ott's worst is 164 above the average and robinson's worst is 206 above league average. career...no ..480 slugging...big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry and andre dawson can surpass this for a career slugging average. so unless there are some real stats that make winfield worthy of the team he won't even be allowed to be water boy! p.s. eddie gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is better than winfield's. check your facts....andre dawson's career slugging pct is in the .480's so is winny's i would like to see your facts. winny has probably done better than 129 points above with a carrer slg of 480. check on more important stats. defense, and heart. batting average. rbi's peak, and career, especially career, winny ranks in the top 15 outfielders of all time. you are using bs to make your standings. and i would like to know where you are getting your numbers from. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105021">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105021" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball.....always has been.....always will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! don is good - but so was keith hernandez....i just heard don talk about how he learned how to be a good fielder by talking and watching keith play.... jt snow 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105022">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105022" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 henderson's stat's are probably closer to dimaggio's than you then give me numbers man!!!!! winfield could whip henderson's butt. well, you're absolutely, completely dead wrong, but thanks for playing. as soon as i get to my office, i'll be happy to post rickey and dave's career lines. both are very fine players, but henderson has been better. as for rickey 'slacking' due to his contract problems this year -- any comments? considering he's basically picked up the entire team and put them on his back, i think he deserves a little slack, and i think he deserves a 4-year extension at $6m per year. quickly. i was upset at people dissing winfield. henderson is the better player. winfield can come close though. lets see what rickey does for the rest of his career. people forget how good winny was in the 80's, and also how great rickey was. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105023">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105023" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 last night on the giants/mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit 200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while hojo was batting). anyone have a list? not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them. i couldn't. mays, mantle, aaron, henderson, morgan, bonds (dad), ??? frank robinson? molitor? yount? guessing now. i'd be interested to see the whole list. ya think winfield is on it? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105024">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105024" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i don't actually have the answer to this one. bosio, after walking the first two batters, retired 27-straight for a "back-end" perfect game. how many other games - including extra inning games - have seen a pitcher retire 27 straight, excluding official perfect games? the only other instance of this i know about for sure is the famous ernie shore game, which counts as a perfect one according to those goons in cooperstown. shore came into the game when boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown out for arguing over the first-batter walk; shore picked him off and retired 26 straight after that. matt wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * hey, i gotta job here, ok? april 6, 1993: boston red sox seize first place. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105025">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105025" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 just to add to this vein, consider that range of a first baseman is not the only important thing. he is imo the best fielder of bad throws from the other infielders. i have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt, catch balls off a large bounce, take down balls over his head, wide, etc. ad infinitum. *and* he gets the out, much of the time. some of the things he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing. you have to give mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot near the bag (yes, i am sure he gets a few calls because he is mattingly :-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! in this corner let's go quakers!!!!! weighing in at almost every weight imaginable . . . life, and all that surrounds it. -- blues traveler, 1993 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105026">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105026" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the marlins tried something like this and was a complete failure. on opening day, instead of having a 7th-inning stretch with the singing of take me out to the ballgame, they had some young women on the field lead the crowd into doing aerobics while the pa was playing gloria estefan's get on your feet. the fans actually booed and started singing take me out... on their own. i actually kind of felt sorry for the girls. are you kidding? i'm stuck with the toronto skydome, where their idea of a 7th inning stretch is that "blue jays" song where everyone gets to yell: "okay, okay, blue jays, blue jays, let's play ball!" wow.. what genius did it take to compose that one, to outshine the old classic. and there are women on the field to "lead the crowd". then again, this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the "grounds crew" and the word ground is used loosely, than it is by the outstanding plays by the opponents' fielders. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105028">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105028" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 well, i'm finally about to key in the official rules for the archives, but before i do, i will ask again... does anybody have the official mlb rules in electronic format? just trying to save myself a ton of work...no, they don't scan well because of the ridiculous format they're printed in. matt wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * hey, i gotta job here, ok? april 6, 1993: boston red sox seize first place. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105031">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105031" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 jason lee asks: what's with john franco? the mets are hardly using him. i heard he was completely recovered, but now i'm not so sure. you must have heard wrong. his arm is still sore. he hasn't gone on the dl, but he may. managmenet is treating him as a day-to-day situation. his doctors thought that he was ready, and they had him throw in colorado, but his arm wasn't up to the strain. he is throwing every day, but he's just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet. (this is based on an interview that he gave on wfan ny radio on thursday, 4/23) jon lyons jon.k.lyons@att.com at&t bell laboratories att!jon.k.lyons 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105032">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105032" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked. i was also at the saturday game in montreal (apr 17) that rockies won 9-1. i haven't paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different. he stands more erect and very open, with his left foot pointing to 3rd base. i'm wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him? andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. if this is indeed a new stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily? as for his patience, dennis martinez definitely did not have his good stuff. if he was grooving pitches to andres, you can hardly fault him for drilling them (which he did!). does andres generally start hot or cold? does it take until may for most pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away? roger healey 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105034">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105034" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 quoted for future reference... shown to be consistent in the past. overall performance, l/r splits, even matching hitting/pitching styles. all of these will give me some advantage if used properly. was predicting the future, the next ab. he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel. he believed one of two things: 1) sabo was more likely than samuel to get a hit or 2) that more good would be done in the long run by leaving sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome. in fact you don't know what perez had in mind when he left sabo in. by supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite. in fact, i don't think anyone is claiming that they can predict the future, or any particular future event. but we can believe that certain trends are due to a cause (whether or not we have identified the cause) and therefore will continue. and i am not dismissing your work. i'm stating my opinion. you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work. well, yes. you are aware of its existance. you claim to be incapable of understanding it (though i suspect you are simply unwilling). yet you rather forcefully state the opposite. you don't seem to think the work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important). i'd say this is insulting. i think seeing insults in other people's opinions is kind of silly. after all, mark didn't call you a total idiot, or call your work stupid, he simply stated that it didn't change his opinion on the i did not say that it is a consistent skill. i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances. right! this is the beef. it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under *any* circumstances. at least none that we've been able to come up with. if you know of some where it *is* an indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret. if player a hits better on tuesdays and always has, and mark believes that it might be an indication that he will hit on tuesday better next season as well, would you respond the same way? at some point you might admit that all variable might not be known to you (who knows what this guy does every monday night? maybe he sees his sports shrink on tuesday mornings, or has his vitamin b shots monday nights?) but this is something that's true of one guy only. it doesn't mean that there will be a meaningful correlation for the entire league by days of the week, nor that there should be. but it doesn't mean we can't make predictions based on that for that particular i believe that by season's end that chris sabo's batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch situations. i can't prove that it will happen, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see. is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year? or is this a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit (xxx amount?) worse in the clutch than overall? i only see a prediction for one player here. i don't see anything about all batters. here's another one for you. in 1989 - 1991 joe carter's batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non-clutch situations each year. i presume you think this is random. i'm not going to get into case analysis. sure, you can find somebody who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well. you can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in '92. that's exactly what mark is trying to do though. find hitters that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions for these hitters based on their past performance. major league ballplayers. it just makes me think that in 1993 joe carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non-clutch situations. gambler's fallacy. unless there is reason to expect consistency, a huh? what does gambler's fallacy have to do with anything? whether you can know the reason for correlation or not, you can't deny that it has existent, you can only make an argument that you don't think it is likely to continue to exist because you can't see a reason for it to exist. run proves nothing. can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next? i've seen a detailed study of someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate. the argument along the lines of star player with l/r splits will always see an adverse condition in late innings of a close game (i.e. opposing manager will always bring in a ah pitcher to face him, where his manager will not pull him for a ph) i don't see how you can deny it.) as for "total idiot"? yes. if you prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might suggest that you are wrong, i would say the term fits nicely. so tell me? does the term fit? or do you have an open mind? what about you? if the shoe fits, will you wear it with an open mind? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105035">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105035" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the twins this year (rickey bones). nice post chuck, but you made just one mistake. bones is a right-handed pitcher. however, hrbek's grand slam came off graehme lloyd, a lefty. --salty my mistake. -- chuck 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105037">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105037" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 last night on the giants/mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit 200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while hojo was batting). anyone have a list? not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them. i couldn't. mays, mantle, aaron, henderson, morgan, bonds (dad), ??? frank robinson? molitor? yount? guessing now. i'd be interested to see the whole list. first, please watch your line lengths. not everyone has autowrap. second, franklin to the rescue! here's the list: player hr sb aaron 755 240 mays 660 338 frobinson 586 204 rjackson 563 228 winfield 406 216 * dawson 377 304 * baylor 338 285 bobonds 332 461 wynn 291 225 strawberry 280 201 * morgan 268 689 pinson 256 309 yount 235 247 * kgibson 208 253 * sandberg 205 297 * players marked with an * are still active; numbers through 1991. that's 15; the 16th is probably rickey henderson, who was listed at 184 hr, 994 sb or george brett, listed as 186 sb, 291 hr. the surprises? probably reggie, bayor, and wynn for steals. maybe morgan (to a lot of people) for homers. i was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals, though i wasn't surprised that the number mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com dreams are real while they last. can we say more of life? - havelock ellis 
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 (no, i'm not going to be cordial. roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead. send me e-mail if you insist on details.) in fact, he's a complete and total dickhead on at least 2 newsgroups (this one and rec.sport.hockey). since hockey season is almost over, he's back to being a dickhead in r.s.bb. i was in fact going to suggest that roger take his way of discussion over to r.s.football.pro. there this kind of hormone-only reasoning is the standard. being he canadian, and hockey what it is, i would have suggested that r.s.h would work too. it is important in a thread that everyone involved use the same body part to produce a post (brain being the organ of choice here). g. bonvicini bonvicin@cernvm.cern.ch 
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 very interesting, gehrig below bonds and schmidt. ricky henderson? could steal bases, but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio's. uhhhh. where is winfield? henderson's stat's are probably closer to dimaggio's than you jim mann stratus computer jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com 
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 can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense? (at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door.) i must have stared at "cleman" in the mets' box for a good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was. wouldn't it make more sense to use "colemn"? i've seen it as "colmn" also. blame the associated press. after the official scorer balances the official score card, they copy it and give it to several diffent people. one of those is a person from ap whose job it is to type it up (using a template on a laptop) and transmit it to the ap offices in new york (rockefeller center) via the telephone. the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap's news delivery services. if there are corrections, those are issued later. it is the person sitting in front of a laptop at shea (or whereever) whose fault that is. [note: the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one] last week they were in denver. maybe the ap person in denver did this (remember, they just started with mlb out there). check tomorrow's paper (4/21) and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing. scott barman | mets mailing list (feed the following into your shell): scott@asd.com | mail mets-request@asd.com <<! | subscribe let's go mets! | ! 
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 while we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget shea, which was designed to accommodate both the mets & jets. it was the first stadium (i think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football. minor point: shea stadium was designed as a multi-purpose stadium but not with the jets in mind as the tennant. the new york football giants had moved to yankee stadium (from the polo grounds) in 1958 and was having problem with stadium management (the city did not own yankee stadium until 1972). the idea was to get the giants to move into shea. when a deal was worked out between the giants and the yankees the new afl franchise, the new york titans, approached the city about using the new stadium. the titans were playing in downing stadium (where the cosmos played soccer in the 70s). because shea stadium was tied into the world's fair anyway, the city thought it would be a novel idea to promote the new franchise and the world's fair (like they were doing with the mets). so the deal was worked out. of course, with the jets gone to jersey (and a truly good football stadium), the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where, because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the action. the mets announcers--kiner & murphy in particular--have always hyped it as "beautiful shea stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is. i'm under the impression that when murph says it, he means it! as a regular goer to shea, it is not a bad place since they've cleaned and renovated the place. remember, this is its 30th year! scott barman | mets mailing list (feed the following into your shell): scott@asd.com | mail mets-request@asd.com <<! | subscribe let's go mets! | ! 
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 that exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when strawberry went into a tirade at the man. all reports indicate he used a lot of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of costing the dodgers a game. shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch. dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and just relocated him to another area. in an interview after the game, lasorda blamed the fan for the loss. strawberry also went into a tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about winning. l.a. times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch. sounds like darryl being darryl, tommy spending too much time on slim fast and needs a pasta fix, and the media being their usual "charming" selves. sounds like a new york-like story to me!! :-) i saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is? i didn't realize the folks in la were making a big to do about it. i think stawberry, lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch the replay then apologize to the fan. others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first nine games. darryl has not gotten off to a good start, he has to blame someone. but i guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan. as long as the fan doesn't interfere with the play i see no problems. scott barman | mets mailing list (feed the following into your shell): scott@asd.com | mail mets-request@asd.com <<! | subscribe let's go mets! | ! 
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 on a cold, damp night last night at tiger stadium, dave wells, david haas, bob macdonald, and mike henneman combined for a 3-1 victory over the texas rangers. here are the highlights: r h e texas 1 4 1 detroit 3 5 0 wells gets the win, he's now 3-0 with an era just under 1, and henneman gets his third save in three chances. ken rogers started for the rangers and gets the loss. he was relieved by burns in the 7th. the rangers got their only run on a solo home run by dean palmer in the 7th. the tigers opened the scoring with an rbi single by fryman in the 3rd, then took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when whitaker greeted reliever burns with an rbi double which scored tettleton. whitaker in turn crossed the plate on an rbi single by phillips (who has been red hot) for the third tiger run. this afternoon, it's another battle of southpaws, bill krueger for the tigers vs. craig lefferts for the rangers. --randy p.s. toronto blue jay fans, thanks for wells and macdonald! those guys have really been a big help to the tigers pitching staff! 
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 another pair of suggestions: 1. remove the balk rule. it is the runners responsibility to stay "safe" no matter what the pitcher does. quite honestly, this one is ridiculous. consider the following scenario: runner on third. as the pitcher starts to throw home, the runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for the suicide squeeze. the pitcher, seeing this, does not throw home, but stops in mid action and puts the runner in a run down. it is the balk rule that prevents this from happening. believe it or not, this actually happened to me once in an oba (ontario baseball association) game in milton, ontario. i was the batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it. in the 12 years that i played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw. pablo iglesias pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu 
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 |> where did acker get a ring from? i would have to say that they are about |> even. i believe acker got a ring from his wife when they were married |> >the blue jays had such a strong offense? don't tell me that morris has this |> >magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs. i don't know why you guys keep bickering about morris. the stats show he is a mediocre pitcher at best (this year is another case), he just happened to win 21 games. i saw many of his games last year, he did pitch some good games. but this crap about being a clutch pitcher is nonsense, he was constantly giving up go ahead runs in the 6-8th innings (the clutch innings) and the jays would somehow scrape a win for him. another major factor in his 21 wins, is that cito 'i dont realize i have a bullpen' gaston would leave morris in for ever, therefore giving him many more chances to win games (i believe this is the major reason he won 21 games last year). barry walker my opinions 
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 as i recall from kieth hernandez' 'auto'biography, rusty is a devout roman catholic. kieth and rusty would carpool to shea everyday but sunday, when rusty would go to mass. 
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 the best one i saw last year was willie mcgee off matthews (i think?) in phillie. a fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit the second deck facade at the vet. willie mcgee had one homerun last year. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105058">
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 |the official mlb formula for obp is (hits plus walks plus hit-by-pitch) |divided by (at-bats plus walks plus hit-by-pitch plus sacrifice flies). |sac bunts and errors have no effect. source: total baseball (and they sure they might. if an error is recorded on, for example, a ground ball, ie the batter would otherwise be out, it is officially a hitless at bat. if it's some other type of error (greenwell lets a single go by), it doesn't effect the obp. but, most errors are 
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 does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha? 
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 i'm still hoping for a .500 season from the bucs but i really wished they would have coughed up the $$$ to keep doug around. actually, i was hoping for barry bonds. oh well. p.s. jeff king *still* sucks. check this out (from the latest mcweekly): ba slg obp hr rbi jeff king .234 .277 .357 0 4 jose lind .323 .484 .344 0 5 first off, jeff has had like 5 hits in the last two games, and walked *yet again*. sorry ken, but jeff king does have some power, which means his slg won't be below .300, and his walks are *way* up. if that increase is real, jeff king will be an above average nl third baseman in 1993. jose lind, on the other hand, *still* doesn't walk, and clearly isn't a .320 hitter. my bet is that he won't be getting any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the "lind shift" we were seeing in the nl. any predictions as to when he is sent to buffalo or released outright? no, although since the lavalliere weirdness, nothing would really surprise me. jeff king is currently in the top 10 in the league in *walks*. something is up... 
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 in article: 106628 of rec.sport.baseball, <healey@qucdn.queensu.ca> (roger healey) wrote >> the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked. i was also at the saturday game in montreal (apr 17) that rockies won 9-1. i haven't paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different. he stands more erect and very open, with his left foot pointing to 3rd base. i'm wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him? andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. if this is indeed a new stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily? yes, the stance is new. don baylor was his batting coach at st. louis last year, and now, as his manager, is continuing to work with him. maybe andres has a "weak" left eye and the open stance gives him a better look at the ball. or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics - i dunno. but the change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as 5 years ago. his selectivity has not changed. gregg \\ baseball@ncar.ucar.edu // _^ \ / \ / ^_ _\|__/\ / \ /\__|/_ /\___/ / \ \___/\ | cr/ /\/ o \/\ \cr | \ \ / colorado rockies \ / / 
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 maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard) says: to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab- solutely that player a's team would have played better with player b in their lineup. sheer speculation. impossible to ascertain. to take this to its, er, "logical" conclusion, it is impossible to ascertain whether or not i am a better hitter than roberto alomar, or a better pitcher than juan guzman, or a better center fielder than devon white. after all, if i were on the blue jays, can you really prove that they wouldn't have won the world series in both 1991 and while i thank you, mister maynard, for your faith in my atheletic prowess, i can assure you that your faith is misplaced. bob vesterman. 
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 the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a large enough portion of the population, and have suggested various "remedies", such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that "smoke'embake'emdominatebysheerintimidation" is an accurate description of what is, essentially, a laid-back game. forget those lame ideas. here is my new and exciting two-point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses. point one: sex. point two: violence. let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in america. here's how we can implement them in the game: sex: cheerleaders, cheerleaders, and more cheerleaders. dancing on top of the dugouts. bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch. running up and down the stands. (the south bend white sox actually do this). violence: baseball players are such utter wuss boys. the pitcher beans the batter, and both benches empty in what is called a "bench-clearing brawl". everybody just stands there and looks at each other. stand, stand, stand. look, look, look. ho, hum. then, the bullpens come running in. when they reach the "fight", they just stand there, too. anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined. further, the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield, so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield. football: sex, violence. basketball: sex, violence. hockey: violence. baseball: "da pastime of da nayshun!" - yawn. bob vesterman. 
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 mandelbaum) says: yes - everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction. they should finish over .500 this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august. however, i would take back a few moves: 1. the jim abbott trade. bleagh! this was a terrific trade. snow will certainly be better than mattingly in the future, but that they'll be about the same now is a defensible opinion. abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in the game today. 2. wade boggs. i'm not sure about this one. i think that it's good, in that a pre-1992 boggs kicks hayes/meulens/whoevers' ass, and that a 1992 boggs still isn't all that shabby. it's bad, though, that the yankees expect a pre-1992 boggs, and will probably get a 1992 boggs. however, i'd still play boggs over hayes or bam bam. 3. spike owen. you have my full agreement here. he's not all that much better than velarde, and silvestri is just about a lock to be better than him. however, i do enjoy the fact that "spike" is not a nickname. not that this helps the yankees. 4. danny tartabull. i strongly disagree. i'd much much rather have a hundred games of tartabull and sixty games of dion james than 162 games of james. bob vesterman. 
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 the subject line says it all. what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save? imho this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all of baseball. my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on-deck circle. also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs. this is a phenomenon known around work as ready-fire-aim. i am astounded at the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only don't understand but publicly admit to not understanding. in fact, there's a plausible argument that saves are a more rational stat than wins. for the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save: he must finish the game and either 1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck. 2. have pitched at least three innings effectively. a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game. i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners/savers/etc. for instance, a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win. has this pitcher earned a win, no but this is an argument that *wins* is a dumb stat, not saves. i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score. assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth. his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win. the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" this again doesn't support your claim about saves at the beginning of your mike jones | aix high-end development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design. - frederick p. brooks, jr., the mythical man-month 
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 the subject line says it all. what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save? as far as i know, a save opportunity is when it is 7th inning or beyond, and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game. for example if it is the bottom of the 8th inning and clemens is pithching. the red sox are leading 4-1 and clemens has just givin up a hit. so, there is a man on first, the batter, and the batter on deck could tie the game with a homer. if jeff russel came in, (the red sox reliever), and finished the game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score, he would get the save and clemens would get the win. thats how i beleive it works. hope i could help, -the cowboy- 
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 i know there's been a lot of talk about jack morris' horrible start, but what about dennis martinez. last i checked he's 0-3 with 6+ era. is the ageless wonder finally showing his age? does he usually start off the season so slowly? i know he plans to start tonight. i hope he comes around.... i would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of dennis martinez's season... thanks in advance, 
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 come back ten years from now and look at the careers of juan gonzalez vs. mark mcguire, and then tell us how bogus the juanderful one's 1992 hr title was. i'd say that by 2003, juan will be preparing his hof acceptance speech while the voters will be saying "mark mcwho?" ken melcher * i am typing real slow because e-mail: kmelcher@arco.com * i know you can't read very fast. 
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 alan "all in all, it's just another" sepinwall writes... ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble. the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike zone! (he's just lucky that strike zone size isn't determined by how big your afro is:) i agree. however, i have to object. growing up in the early 1980's and playing 2 years of mario mendoza-esque little league, i was told that since my hitting, well, sucked, i would do best to either "walk, or take one in the face for the team". i did both. and, my yankee fan father would say, "bat like oscar gamble". so i did. and my career obp was about .550. not only was oscar a fun guy to watch, but he had some pretty cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league players in history. -i'm outta here like vladimir! jason a. miller "some doctor guy" frank tanana: 1 win?!?!?! 
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 what's with john franco? the mets are hardly using him. don't worry. this is a perfectly normal state of affairs. had they actually been using him, you should be worried. i heard he was completely recovered, but now i'm not so sure. he's recovered totally from his injury. that's why he's not pitching...so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again pitching on 38 days rest and then have fun dining in the diamond club in shea stadium while ay struggles every day out there... if there is anybody out there with information about franco, i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line. i've be quite happy to drop john franco, just the same. bring back randy myers! no, better make that...bring back neil allen! jason lee jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu sf giants e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0 the most beautiful equation in mathematics. magic for all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: number: "it might have been." john greenleaf whittier 148 jason a. miller "some doctor guy" tanana: 1-0, 1.50 
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 for predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless. at least if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it. i did not say i could predict the future. you most certainly did! i really don't want to get into a didso-didnot debate with you. but this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement. i did not say, nor did i imply, that i could predict the future. you have inferred that my comments meant this, and you have based your rebuttal of my comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in regard to clutch hitting. sabo 1539 452 .294 259 59 .228 samuel 1564 383 .245 278 83 .299 sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel. yet you would pinch-hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter. right? i'd call that "predicting the future". that is *your* opinion that sabo is "clearly a better hitter" than samuel. the above data is for a 4-year period ending last season. last season samuel batted .272 while sabo hit .244 (not park adjusted). this season they are both hitting below .200, albeit sabo with more at bats. i will agree that over his career sabo has been a better hitter than samuel, but i will also remind you that samuel has been a better hitter in certain situations than sabo. i did not predict that sabo would choke, nor that samuel would get a hit. i expressed my opinion that had i been the reds manager (or even a reds fan) that i would prefer to have samuel hit in that situation than sabo. if you were to have been the reds manager at that time, i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch- hitting samuel. i'm sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance. you just wouldn't have used this particular aspect of prior performance. is this not correct? right. i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past. overall performance, l/r splits, even matching hitting/pitching styles. all of these will give me some advantage if used properly. ah. "properly". yes. i see. even if all else were equal, there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance. and in this case, everything else pointed to sabo. please help me. what, exactly, is "everything else" that pointed to sabo? well, yes. you are aware of its existance. you claim to be incapable of understanding it (though i suspect you are simply unwilling). yet you rather forcefully state the opposite. you don't seem to think the work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important). i'd say this is insulting. i must say, i was not aware of the publication. can you email me the information regarding its availability? and i guess i must apologize to all of those who have done extensive study on, say, supply side economics. i didn't mean to insult you. but i never did believe you were on the right path. i'm sorry for my contrary opinion/position. i also regret that i don't have the ability to prove that you are wrong. but you are. i believe that by season's end that chris sabo's batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch situations. i can't prove that it will happen, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see. is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year? or is this a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit (xxx amount?) worse in the clutch than overall? it is what it says it is! if you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and see. but the second is a much stronger statement. in fact, it suggests a rule. we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years. i think you will agree that if the rule didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do any better this year. right? the "second" is *your* statement, not mine. i'm not going to get into case analysis. sure, you can find somebody who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well. you can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in '92. well, actually, i haven't yet. but i'm not finished looking. that is, i haven't yet found someone who hit significantly below his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years 1989 - 91, and then reversed that relationship in 1992. gambler's fallacy. unless there is reason to expect consistency, a run proves nothing. can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next? i've seen a detailed study of why i *shouldn't* expect it to correlate. nope. sorry. but if you were interested in a reason why i expect chris sabo's ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next, i think i could. if you were interested in a reason why i expect joe carter's ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next, i think i could. but you're not interested in that, because you think that those conclusions could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire baseball population. and they can't be. the "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid. (and i don't see how you can deny it.) as for "total idiot"? yes. if you prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might suggest that you are wrong, i would say the term fits nicely. the problem here is that i *do* believe you. i accept your work. i believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based on prior clutch history is meaningless. no better than a coin toss. i actually *do* accept your work. as it happens, i also have an *opinion* that in certain situations, for certain players, a history of superior or inferior ability to hit in the clutch might suggest a reason what such history could be valid in projecting future player performance. for that player. and chris sabo is one such player. so tell me? does the term fit? or do you have an open mind? well, since i defer to your statistical wisdom, i think i must have an open mind. now we have to pose the same question to you. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105080">
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 my *supposition* is that if we were to find the same players consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players (as opposed to all baseball players). this may be the root of the confusion... please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind. note that i am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand. suppose we have a simplified lotto game. [detailed explanation deleted..] indeed, you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement. to rebut my opinion, you have made an analogy with a game of chance. your hypothesis assumes that the lotto players have no impact on the selection of the numbers, and hence their ability to win. well, that's certainly true in lotto. but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of baseball. when you start down the wrong path, you finish down the wrong path. i repeat. i do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting i do, however, think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance may, for some players, indicate a deficiency in their game that indeed will provide a basis for projecting their particular future performance. and i think chris sabo is such a player. -- the beastmaster mark singer mss@netcom.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105081">
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 who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team? who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers? (hint: nolan ryan isn't either) what two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams? who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or more career bases for the same team? no fair peeking at your baseball stats.... phil allen texdude@cs1.bradley.edu i'll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted. for most career k's with one team, if it's not ryan, perhaps steve carlton. with the rangers, hough was there for a long time. in the 100 saves department...maybe lee smith(he should have at least a hundred with the cubbies, maybe enough with either the rsox or cards.) then maybe, gossage?(nyy and sd), fingers (mil, oak) don't know about the homers/steals dept. in some other article,(mets trivia), it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams, maybe beating all of 'em too. probably seaver and koosman fit too. and in randy johnson's no-hitter, i think it was scott bradley, the other half of the old mariner catching platoon, who was behind the plate that night. david plurad 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105084">
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 i read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights' game with stiffness in his shoulder. does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury (if indeed there is one), or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints a little stiff? thanks for the help... all they said on the radio that he developed stiffness in the shoulder after throwing a curveball that didn't loosen. because of the cold night in denver they decided to remove him from the game rather than let him pitch. he is expected to pitch his next turn in the rotation (expected to be april 20, at shea vs the giants). scott barman | mets mailing list (feed the following into your shell): scott@asd.com | mail mets-request@asd.com <<! | subscribe let's go mets! | ! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105086">
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 amazingly, pitchers, no matter how good their mechanics, are not machines. cy young winners don't pitch in a vaccuum, unaware of how their offenses are doing. the braves' pitching staff is already showing signs of cracking under the strain of knowing they're not going to get many (if any) runs. unfortunately, the braves' pitchers were so bad for so long that the organization put so much stress (and i mean *stress*) on pitching that they completely ignored hitting. the braves right now are looking woefully similar to the braves of the mid-seventies. heaven help us. @econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke.edu fls@econ.duke. s to my correspondents: my email has been changed. e l my new address is: fls@econ.duke.edu d f if mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu u 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105088">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105088" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 cheryl marks writes do you think omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club? last week a banner appeared in the kingdome: older women for omar that depends. just how much older were they? david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105092">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105092" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 right. so who cares which player gets credited, as long as the team gets more runs? if a player helps the team get more r and rbi, but doesn't score them all himself, who cares? amusing, isn't it? seems only the sdcns realize how much baseball is a *team* game, combining efforts from every player for the win. consider the red sox game last night. the sox won 4-3 in the bottom of the 13th. who won the game? -clemens pitched a strong nine (?) innings, allowing only two runs. -ryan pitched a couple shutout innings, though he needed some excellent defensive plays behind him to do so. -quantrill pitched a couple of innings, gave up the go-ahead run, and got credited with the win when the sox scored two in the bottom of the inning. looks like a team effort to me! yet only quantrill got credit for the win. how about the offense? -dawson and vaughn hit (i think) hrs early in the game. without either one, the sox would have lost in nine. -quintana led off the 13th with a solid single. -zupcic pinch-ran for quintana, providing the speed to go from first to third when... -cooper ripped a *second* single in the inning. -melvin avoided the dp, getting the run home with a sac fly. not much of a help, but it was something. -scrub richardson then hit a double, scoring the speedy cooper all the way from first! (hill's lack of defense helped.) cooper and zupcic were credited with runs, melvin and richardson were credited with rbis. but it seems to me that it was quintana's hit that set up the whole inning! and did melvin really contribute as much as richardson? furthermore, people seem to consider rbis to be more significant than runs. did melvin contribute more than cooper? cooper provided the game-winning baserunner, and moved the tying run to third base with only one out! assigning credit based on runs and rbis is clearly ridiculous. you can argue that obp and slg don't show you who came through in the clutch, but r&rbi don't do any better. at least obp and slg don't *claim* to try to tell you that. here's to the red sox who contributed to last night's victory. all 20 of them! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105093">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105093" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 there's too many >'s here for my taste by now, which means i've reached my maximum depth on this thread. i've cut out some things below, but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion. i agree. i'll delete more as well. perhaps you can give a more recent citation of any player mentioned as a malingerer? thanks. i guess i don't understand your question. i was trying to imply that the accusations of glenn davis' malingering were certainly not played up very much. still, if the 'whispers' reached san francisco, it is certainly possible they were stronger elsewhere. also, it was teammates making the aspersions. in any event, i know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years. but, in any case, i believe mike lavalliere has been accused of poor work habits and general sloth recently (probably not malingering), just as he was being released. it's interesting that nobody heard much about these problems before if they were so important. i have heard sanders called many things as well. i have not heard him called lazy. given the 2-sport phenomenon, it would be difficult to label him as exactly so. which means his media detractors have had to say other things about him. i believe it's a general phenomenon that if writers don't like you, they'll find a label that will stick no matter who you are. i find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in why writers feel they need to act this way. (not that this fascinates me that much, either.) uh, the original author's point was that black and white players were por- trayed differently by "the media", and towards this, he gave a highly selected list to "prove" his case. sanders' name showed up eventually. i dispute that sanders has ever been called lazy by "the media". hmm, big ego, possible club house disturbance, etc. is that good press? no, but it isn't the total extent of the press he received in pittsburgh, where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and spoiled by the local columnists. again, the actual words used may shift around with time and expediency, but "lazy" tends to be higher on the list for non-white players, at least in my subjective opinion. [aside: it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken, and on teams like the red sox which have been traditionally white. nowadays, most people think of carl yastrzemski as one of those blue-collar, hard-working guys, but in the early 70s he was often portrayed as a lazy bum. really.] hmm. i never heard anyone accuse canseco of being lazy. nor sierra. i've heard accusations that canseco was a bad fielder, but could be a great one "if he put his mind to it". ignoring whether or not he is a actually, dave stewart is (was) one of the most vocal about this. in any event, that is not "lazy". at least one poster in the last week has fired off a major screed on the canseco-is-lazy issue, so i think your point is at best a quibble, and probably weaker than that. uh, that poster specifically stated "allow me to be the first". it is not a quibble, then, to state that "the media" did not portray canseco as being lazy. if the other person chooses to so accuse him, after my post, that does not make it a quibble. and in fact, the media around here tend(ed) to play up his time in the wieght room. hardly "lazy", and hardly a "quibble". have you ever seen any "mediot" portray canseco as "lazy"? unconcerned with his fielding, yes. lazy, no. bad fielder, i think this is still interesting. for that matter, i think canseco's colorful off-field antics get lots more national attention than those of, say, roger clemens. well, he's had a few more of them. at least more that you've heard about. i think one of the questions here surrounds selective reporting. having said that, i have to say that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be unfalsifiable, at least by those of us who aren't reporters, police, or private investigators. well, canseco has been involved in several felonies, including his high-speed record, carrying concealed fire-arms, and of course the domestic violence. clemens had a run-in at a bar. canseco had that, as well, and in both cases, the coverage was relatively minimal. puckett? stewart? jackson? i said "over-represent" non-whites. three anecdotal data points don't make an interesting counter-argument. btw--which jackson are we talking about here? reggie, bo, darrin, danny, or ...? uh, if the only evidence offered is anecdotal, how can it be objected that the counter to it is also anecdotal? and it seems like everybody who has ever won a batting title (among others) has been accused at some time of "caring more for his own stats than for the good of the team". it also seems to me that you're kirby puckett? i have never heard this accusation made of puckett. i have heard it of boggs. actually, i believe it of him, but that's another not living in minnesota, i can't say whether or not this line has ever been used against kirby there. as far as boggs goes, i'm not sure why you bring him up, since he's one of the obvious prototypes for the line i quoted (along with ted williams, rod carew, and many others). uh, yes, and i agree with your assesment of boggs, rather specifically. however, you did say "everybody who has ever won a batting title" has been accused of selfishness. i have not ever, anywhere, heard this said of puckett. pendleton, either. similarly, brett, b williams, and others. how about daryl strawberry? and i think the plus or minus refers more to the "born again" types, ie, butler and gaetti. again, you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes. on the other hand, my argument by is of the because-jon-says-so variety if we have no other data. i have to admit i have problems generating lists of non-white players who became (in)famous for their religious or political beliefs, while names like butler, gaetti, dravecky, knepper, hersheiser, et al. come rolling out. there are others. perhaps they are simply not as outspoken, except in the case of the "born-again" types i mention. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105094">
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 1b career: don mattingly!!!!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105095">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105095" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital. can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the i wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice. any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies? eric a. w. behrens behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu "i'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball." --pete 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105097">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105097" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 for the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save: he must finish the game and either 1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck. 2. have pitched at least three innings effectively. a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game. close, but there's a number 3 also: 3. have entered the game with no more than a 3 run lead and pitched at least one inning. if a pitcher finishes a game which his team has won, does not get the win, and satisfies at least one of the three requirements, he gets a save. russell peltz peltz-russell@cs.yale.edu p.o. box 3838 y.s. new haven, ct 06520 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105099">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105099" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it. in the 12 years that i played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw. now this sounds like a fun topic.... in a slo pitch softball game, we had the first base dugout. one of our players hit a shot down the first base line with the bases loaded. the only question was fair or foul. ball hits ground, chalk flies. umpire calls foul. we give him the standard "didn't you see chalk" line. his response was "it hit the foul half of the line". we all started laughing. mark pede not bad. we had a similar situation. slowpitch softball, bases loaded, weakest hitter at the plate. he hits a line drive over the third baseman's head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in foul ground, almost hitting the fence down that side of the field. but the umpire called fair ball! i was coaching third, yelling at evrybody to move up a base. the ump's position: "it was still fair when it passed third base". why the other team didn't immediately protest i'll never know; we certainly weren't going to argue about it, since every body did manage to advance one base safely. there was also the time when a batted ball ricocheted off my (runner from second base) leg, fielded by the ss, steps on second to force the runner from first, and throw to first in time for what the umpire called a triple play; protest removed when we won the game anyway. clay d. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105100">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105100" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them. dunno about miller. if you mean scott erickson, currently the reigning twins least consistent good player, he pulled a muscle in the neighborhood of the rib cage that made it essentially impossible for him to pitch temporarily, and is expected back on the mound sunday. david thornley "with tickets to see one of the scott ericksons pitch" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105104">
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 jiann-ming su writes bobby bonilla supposedly use the word 'faggot' when he got mad at that author in the clubhouse. should he be banned from baseball for a year like schott? it wouldn't bother me... david j.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****blue riddle productions 1993 *-------------------------------it's on.--------------------------------* ***"the rap is an art ep" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.*** *------------------------e-mail me for the 411.-------------------------* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105107">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105107" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 san francisco quakes by the way, quakes is the nickname for the padres affiliate in the california league: the rancho cucamunga quakes! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105108">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105108" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 name pos ab h 2b 3b hr rbi rs sb e avg galarraga 1b 54 23 6 2 15 6 1 .426 sheaffer c 3 1 .333 boston of 28 9 3 8 .321 cole cf 43 13 1 1 2 13 8 .302 hayes 3b 46 13 2 3 11 7 2 3 .283 bichette rf 39 10 1 3 10 8 1 .256 e. young 2b 51 13 2 1 1 7 12 9 3 .255 tatum 3b 8 2 1 .250 murphy of 8 2 2 .250 clark lf 37 9 3 1 1 3 3 1 .243 girardi c 45 10 2 1 3 3 1 .222 castilla ss 7 1 1 .143 benavides ss 35 5 1 5 3 4 .143 pitchers p 24 1 1 .042 g. young of 3 2 1 .000 totals 431 112 19 4 10 61 66 21 14 .260 name l/r gs cg ip h r er k bb era w l s aldred l 6 4 3 1 3 8 1.50 0 0 0 ashby r 2 0 11 12 3 3 5 9 2.45 0 0 0 wayne l 3.7 4 1 1 3 2 2.45 0 1 0 neid r 4 1 29 27 11 10 15 10 3.10 3 1 0 parrett r 10 8 4 4 12 7 3.60 0 0 0 smith r 3 0 16.3 22 8 8 3 5 4.41 1 2 0 blair r 8 9 6 4 5 3 4.50 0 0 0 ruffin l 2 0 9.3 15 7 5 7 6 4.82 1 1 0 henry l 2 0 12.7 14 9 8 5 5 5.68 0 2 0 reed r 3.7 8 7 7 2 3 17.18 0 0 0 holmes r 2.3 8 10 9 3 4 34.71 0 1 0 totals 13 1 112 131 69 60 63 62 4.82 5 8 0 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105112">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105112" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 2. if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time (x = 3 to 5) without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base as if walked. this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably. suppose the pitcher uses up (n-1) of his n pick-off attempts. the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base, given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time. if it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead, it would probably also result ina greater number of pickoffs. i think it would be a workable rule, but it would probably be best to experiment in another league before trying it in the bigs. clay d. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105113">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105113" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 } >oh, yea, and chris bosio pitched a no-hitter. one over the minimum, two } have there ever been any other no-hitters in mariner history? randy johnson, june 2, 1990 against the tigers. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105114">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105114" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 how about matt nokes 2 run single against ron darling. was that a hit or what? while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss' talking about mark connor as bullpen coach. he said something like it's mark connor's fault that the bullpen is so horrible!! here we go again!! george sticking his non-baseball nose in the baseball business. shut up george, just spend the money, get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone. i saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also, and what enraged me more than anything was not that george was speaking up agai and complaining to the media instead of to the proper people, it was that the idiot reporter provided george with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble. this is a supreme example of how the media can truly control situations. the local beat reporters should know better and should stop trying to one-up each other with quotes from the boss. if they just ignored him, he'd really simply go away, and problems would be avoided. what that reporter did was potentially to open up the floodgates again--asshole. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105118">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105118" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 rule 7.09(k) states: "it is interference by a batter or runner when - in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base ... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of) the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field- er taking the throw at first base..." the key word in the rule is "and." a runner isn't out just for running out of the baseline. he's out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter- sorry, i still don't buy it. you're certainly right that the runner is not out merely for running out of the baseline: he must interfere with the play. but the argument here is over what constitutes interference. you certainly cannot infer from what you've quoted that the batter-runner must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference: you haven't posted a definition of interference at all. imo this calls for one of the "approved ruling[s]" that go in small print in the rulebook. something like: approved ruling: if in the judgement of the umpire the runner, by running to the left of the allowed path, caused the fielder to make a bad throw, blocks the vision of the fielder receiving the throw, or otherwise impedes the defensive team's making a play on him, the batter-runner shall be judeged guilty of interference. approved ruling: the runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes contact with a fielder or is hit by the thrown ball. in the absence of such an approved ruling i claim that this is a poor rules trivia question--since it cannot be authoritatively answered. len reed holos software, inc. voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16 domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa uucp: lbr@holos0.uucp 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105119">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105119" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 gary's list of the ten slowest bats in baseball: 8. andre dawson what?! peter gammons' andre "tremendous bat speed" dawson? bat speed so great that dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the left field line without counting to 100 before swinging? bat speed never before seen from a 38-year-old man, much less from any red sox player to precede him? yes, that's him. was i not specific enough? just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that they have a quick bat. dawson's release is slow, and he *is* 38, after all. he may swing early, and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to the left side all the time, but he swings slowly. as for me disagreeing with peter gammons... whoa! that's never happened before! next thing you know, i'll probably believe dave campbell is the biggest imbecile even to come near a mic, and that ray knight has the iq of drained crankcase oil. * gary huckabay * "outside?! that was right down the bleedin' pipe, * * "balder than any * kenny! i realize i don't have great control, but * * dave on the net. * c'mon!" "gary, that was a styrofoam cup. the * * really." * plate's a foot to your right. throw the ball." * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105120">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105120" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hi there, i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first 15-day period was up? i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was wondering if that was new. i thought he was just letting it heal. another question, is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone. i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok. any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated. thank you for your ryan robin. [==================] texas rangers in 1993! [==================] jose canseco for mvp. [==] [==] [==] ryan n. robin [==] 311 weatherford hall [==] corvallis, or. [==] 97331-1701 [========] (robinr@prism.cs.orst.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105122">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105122" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 as the subject tells all i am trying to find out what is the formula to calculate the era for the pitchers. if any of you baseball fans have it please e-mail me at napoli@atc.olivetti.com thank you very much gaetano napolitano 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105123">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105123" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 date: fri, 23 apr 1993 00:03:11 gmt from: tackey chan <tac@world.std.com> so, anybody know what's up with john franco? are the mets just starting him off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work, or what? the mets are really starting him off slow. mike maddax and young can do the job of closing. torborg has said that he franco is his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no need. he does not want franco to get hurt on his return. i have this guy so i know what it is like to see him pitch 2 inns in that lat 2 ------tac well, they just said that franco will probably go on the dl tomorrow. (they mentioned a career minor leaguer as the "warm body" who would go along...i forget.) also, when answering questions about the rotation, coleman (sd broadcaster) said that hurst is gone in about a month-month and a half, which is when he should finish re-hab. dennis parslow that better be a korean good troy, ny 12180 luck symbol! -remo williams p00421@psilink.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105124">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105124" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not, roger clemens (sorry, val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky's neck, and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, clemens nonchalantly motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard, some 70 or so feet about the green monster (over 100 feet above the ground total!) truly an amazing shot. i was at that game, behind home plate next to a scout who was manning the radar gun. the 1991 season was winding down and roger didn't have his best fastball, topping out at 88-90 (in contrast to frank tanana, who went as low as 50 with one lollipop in the process of striking out phil plantier *five* times on the night). inky's shot would have gone further than any i've ever seen if it hadn't crashed *into* the lights (not the lightstand) as you say over 100 feet high, roy hobbs-like, and bounced back onto the field. that had to have been a 525-footer if unobstructed, edging out bo jackson's drive off oil can boyd to the top of the centerfield bleacher back wall in 1988 for the best i've seen personally (i was sitting under that one). glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton, ma g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105130">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105130" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 dear anybody, i am in rochester, ny, where people can look at a rangers-penguins playoff game and say, no joke i heard it, "hey whats this, oh, its not even the ahl, its just the nhl, i think." because of this e get red wings (orioles aaa) stats and updates but no al or nl stats. specifically im looking for red sox stats so far, id like all of them, but could handle just greenwell and vaughn. can anybody please help me!!!!!!!! wizard!!!!! ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105145">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105145" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 this chatting about the best player of all time is pointless. you can't compare players from different era's. of course you can. you just have to be careful about what conclusions you draw. if you will notice the best pitchers (stat wise were in the 20's and 30's) and the best all around hitters probably came from the 40's to 60's. huh? the 20's and 30's were the *worst* decades for great pitching. grove, vance, dean, and not a whole lot else. as for the best all-around hitters, stat-wise, ruth, gehrig, foxx, greenberg, hornsby, cobb, etc. all played before the 40's. stat-wise, the 60's were a graveyard for hitters. now we have a great number of great pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders. (also, how do you know? which ones do you consider great? about fielding, the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early years of baseball) maybe a hitter like sheffield with the .330 ba, 30hr, and 100+ rbi(even though it was probably a fluke year) can be compared to a mantle because the pitching sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better. the so? sheffield also has better shoes. more time between pitches. you can run the comparison, but there are *lots* of things to take into account. same could be said for frank thomas who is said to be the best hitter since ted williams, although frank's defense does suck. well, can we compare them or can't we? all i am saying is that you can't compare players from different era's, if you want a best player try choosing best players from different era's. that why? we can compare players to the *standard* of their era; and we can keep in mind era-to-era differences without throwing up our hands in way there is reasonable basis for comparison. you haven't shown us what's *un*reasonable about the mantle-sheffield comparison that you yourself did. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105149">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105149" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 is there a chicago cubs mailing list?? if so, i'd like to join. any help appreciated.... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105152">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105152" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i don't understand this at all. matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit. he won't take walks. he'd rather swing. if i'm the opposing pitcher, why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well, when i know that williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit very well) at a low and away curve? matt's problem is really more ability than attitude. it isn't that he's got it in his mind that he wants to swing away, but rather that he's (still) a total sucker for the curve ball. it looked for a while in 1990 that he was getting better but it's still his weak point. as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him, the net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling as to whether the giants' lineup is optimal: who knows? batting bonds, the team's best hitter, fifth does seem to be odd, but the #1 and #2 hitters aren't exactly messrs. oba, so they aren't giving much up there. and although clark isn't the overall offensive force that bonds is, he seems better suited to the #3 spot. assuming, of course, that he starts hitting one of these days... | michael zimmers | voice: 408 996 1965 | | softhelp -- suppliers to software developers | data: 408 996 1974 | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105153">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105153" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i think that, everything else being equal, it's not too much to ask that if a weeknight game can be shortened by half-an-hour by cutting out warmup pitches, dawdling outside the batter's box, commerical time-outs and that sort of thing, i'm not asking for too much. how do you know they can be shortened by half-an-hour? has anybody done a study to determine how much time is actually "wasted" -- say, in these a's hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105157">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105157" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 : hi there, : i'm german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now. : there are many problems occuring for me. one of them is the era statistic for : pitchers. what does it say ?? era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game. thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his era is 3.00. to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9. era = (er/ip) * 9 i think there is another formula for era. i heard something about it last year. im not sure what it is, but im gonna give it a stab. it allows for a pitcher to pitch more than 9 innings at a time and not benefit, cuz it uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched... era = (er*27)/outs recorded like i said, im not sure this is exactly it, but im pretty sure they changed it to something of the sort. an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error. more specifically, if an error occurs that represented the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs. earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game. here are some examples: if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base. if an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs. if a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who were left on base. if the those runners who were left on base score, and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game. i hope this explains things for you. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105159">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105159" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 overall (career) 1. don mattingly 2. don mattingly 3. don mattingly 4. don mattingly 5. don mattingly 6. don mattingly 7. don mattingly 8. don mattingly 9. don mattingly 10. don mattingly 11. don mattingly 50. don mattingly 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105160">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105160" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 when i say "black," i mean us-born black people for the purposes of this discussion. hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did. what about black hispanics? good question. it's my impression, not backed by evidence, that general south-of-the-borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring-firing effect i was talking about. back in the 20's there were some attempts to hire black cuban ballplayers; they were rejected by the commissioner and others. and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks? don't know. but remember: this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only: blacks. our national history man, you had better do some serious reading. i really, really doubt that you meant to say this. well, what *did* i mean to say? aside from some short-lived exceptions such as japanese internment in ww ii, only blacks were affected by laws regarding: slavery, jim crow, miscegenation, military service, etc. if my claim of exclusivity is not 100% airtight, that is, if you can come up with this or that exception, fine -- have a cookie. but compared to this list, no other racial group put up with a legal onslaught worth discussing at length. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105161">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105161" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 ielding rf of all time, as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak to or better than winfield. in my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement, could make good cases for ruth, aaron, ott, robinson, clemente, kaline, maris, klein, jackson, waner, and probably a few others. this is not a knock on winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while winfield been more uniformly excellent. hall of fame? absolutely. top-10 peak? i'm not so sure. top 10 total career value? yes, almost certainly. point taken. when was winfield's peak years anyway? probably around 85. that's the trouble: *what* peak years? he wavers between excellent and very good, with no real bell-shaped pattern in there. 1979 was a fine year; 78 and 80 were merely really good. with the yankees, 84 (i think) was the best; that was the one with the .340 ba. of course, 1992 wasn't bad, either. he's been in the bigs since 1973, with a one-year intermission for surgery. though he doesn't have the mix of skills that pete rose did, he's like pete rose in one way: he's not a natural hitter. winfield's swing used to be the ugliest thing in new york, and that includes the gulf+western building. but his sheer athletic prowess and physical size made up for a lot. fascinating player to watch, even now. not obviously great in any one way; but able to do quite a few things in surprising ways and at surprising 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105164">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105164" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 during the local rockies broadcast the other day don baylor went out to bring in a relief pitcher and a graphic came up on the screen that it was the "so and so sponsored" pitching change. i saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored. at other times during the game rockies announcer duane kuiper was setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation that charlie jones would jump in and discuss the situation. but what does charlie do, he read's a beer advertisement and leaves duane hanging. duane's strategy proved prophetic. these examples happen over and over on radio and t.v. braodcasts making them sometimes very boring to listen to. i guess it's just a matter of time before a player sells his name to budweiser, nike, etc. i don't think it will be long until we hear: "nike budweiser drills it deep to left field, chevrolet goes back, back, it's gone! the apple macintoshes (formerly the boston red sox) are the 1998 world champions!!!" back to work, anthony m. jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf/atd - fl1 p.o. box 3000 boulder, co 80307 p.s. rockies fans have the brooms ready for the marlins this weekend. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105167">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105167" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 it's me again! i apologize to everyone out there whom i might have pissed off with that one article about don mattingly. when i said he was the best first basemam in history i meant fielding first baseman. which he is. no one can argue with 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105299">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105299" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 { huckabay's counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited...} well, it's just studying tape, frame by frame. that's all. the biggest thing that you notice, however, is how bastardized the strike zone has become. death to the umpires' union! the plate is 17" (+1") across, not 23"! call the high strikes strikes, and quit calling pitches 3" outside strikes -- they're balls! speaking of this 23" wide strike zone.... i'd sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available. cbs had this during the ws, or did i just dream it. these pictures would be a feedback device for the umpires so that they can see just how terrible (or not) there calls were. tapes could be sent to the league as evidence of bad ball/strike umpiring. tapes are available as evidence of bad out/safe calls on the bases. i guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series (and, in fact all year) have been pretty much consistently correct. remember: the rule says it's a strike if any part of the ball passes through the strike zone. i would certainly agree that high strikes are not called (who could argue this point?) but all in all i think in and out is called pretty well. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105400">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105400" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 woof! gawd, how i hate myself for doing this, but sometimes you get those urges that are too powerful to overcome. to quote sportscenter: bosiooo ooo ooo hey, bosio threw a no-no what the hell a red sox fan going to say to that. heck...remeber matt young last year? ick.. ------tac 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105401">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105401" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 i am just wondering whether the official mlb stats includes intentional walks in the bb category or not? wenhsiang lin 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball105989">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball105989" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital. can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the i wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice. any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies? good question! i kind of wondered about this myself. just one thought i had on it - the babe himself was in "pride of the yankees", which made me think a) that version may be closer to the truth, and b) the babe must have been a pretty good gut to be in the movie even though some of the scenes didn't make him look completely flattering. chris roney (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.baseball99971">
<answer instance="rec.sport.baseball99971" senseid="rec.sport.baseball"/>
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 hello, my friends and i are running the homewood fantasy baseball league (pure fantasy baseball teams). unfortunely, we are running the league using earl weaver baseball ii with the comm. disk ii and we need the stats for the 1992 season. (preferably the 1992 major league stat disk) we have the '92 total stats but ewb2 needs the split stats otherwise we have 200 inning games because the comm. disk turns total stats into vs. l's stats unless you know both right and left -handed stats. so, if anyone has the ewb2 '92 stat disk please e-mail me! |admiral steve c. liu internet address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu| |"committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms | |and their rehabilitation into society" from red dwarf - "polymorph" | |****the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****| | this sig has been brought to you by... frungy! the sport of kings! | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52551">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52551" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the jets use the "breakaway pass" scheme to create a scoring sensation in order to generate interest. if teams score as many or more goals against winnipeg when selanne is on the ice as winnipeg scores when he is on the ice then i can't see how his contribution can be described as impressive. implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne on the ice can be blamed on him...roger, he is a forward. winnipeg has a lousy defensive record anyway. let's put it another way. john cullen's +/- is terrible. what's your excuse for him? that his powerplay points don't count? neither do selanne's... the object of the game is not to feed selanne - it is to win. and feeding selanne does not contribute in any meaningful way to winning. knowledgeable hockey observers the world over would agree that feeding selanne so he can score does contribute in a meaningful way to pat burns wouldn't have a goal suck like this on his team. you're worried about teemu when you have glenn anderson on your team? we don't know what selanne does best. we do know what jet's management wants. and again, the object of the exercise is not to allow selanne to do what he does best, it is to win hockey games. what he does best is score...so i refer you to my comment above. as it is now, selanne is a grandstanding goal suck. did you see the way he parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring a goal? you would think the messiah had returned... nope, didn't see it. i was too busy watching foligno jump up and down after _his_ goal.... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52552">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52552" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i can only comment on the kings, but the most obvious candidate for pleasant surprise is alex zhitnik. he came highly touted as a defensive defenseman, but he's clearly much more than that. great skater and hard shot (though wish he were more accurate). in fact, he pretty much allowed the kings to trade away that huge defensive liability paul coffey. kelly hrudey is only the biggest disappointment if you thought he was any good to begin with. but, at best, he's only a mediocre goaltender. a better choice would be tomas sandstrom, though not through any fault of his own, but because some thugs in toronto decided to threaten his career in order to avoid conceding a goal. other than that, the award goes to robert lang, an uninspiring czech. robitaille could easily be mvp, but i'd prefer to give it to rob blake who is quietly becoming one of the league's premier defensemen, and if the kings manage to hold onto him and the rest of our young defense, it could one day mean that we'll let in fewer goals than hartford. honorable mentions to majestic marty and warren rychel. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52556">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52556" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the shirts are believe or not from a bob probert line of clothes. the whole shirt says "give blood - fight probie". cool. they sound like a cult classic. can someone post a address or phone # of a store that sells these? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52557">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52557" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 lake state/maine in finals...who won? please post. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52560">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52560" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 tampa bay 1 1 0--2 philadelphia 3 2 1--6 first period 1, philadelphia, carkner 3 (unassisted) 1:24. 2, philadelphia, hawgood 9 (recchi, lindros) pp, 5:56. 3, philadelphia, lindros 37 (recchi, hawgood) pp, 9:52. 4, tampa bay, beers 12 (zamuner, chambers) pp, 15:06. second period 5, tampa bay, andersson 13 (hamrlik, lafreniere) pp, 1:58. 6, philadelphia, conroy 3 (butsayev, faust) 12:10. 7, philadelphia, beranek 13 (galley, hawgood) pp, 18:53. third period 8, philadelphia, recchi 51 (brind'amour, galley) pp, 17:56. philadelphia: 6 power play: 5-4 scorer g a pts beranek 1 0 1 brind'amour 0 1 1 butsayev 0 1 1 carkner 1 0 1 conroy 1 0 1 faust 0 1 1 galley 0 2 2 hawgood 1 2 3 lindros 1 1 2 recchi 1 2 3 tampa bay: 2 power play: 7-2 scorer g a pts andersson 1 0 1 beers 1 0 1 chambers 0 1 1 hamrlik 0 1 1 lafreniere 0 1 1 zamuner 0 1 1 vancouver 1 0 0--1 detroit 2 2 1--5 first period 1, detroit, kozlov 4 (fedorov, chiasson) 5:20. 2, detroit, drake 17 (ciccarelli, coffey) pp, 7:48. 3, vancouver, ronning 24 (slegr, bure) pp, 17:35. second period 4, detroit, sheppard 30 (drake, hiller) 6:54. 5, detroit, ciccarelli 38 (chiasson, drake) pp, 12:13. third period 6, detroit, ysebaert 31 (fedorov, cheveldae) sh, 4:59. detroit: 5 power play: 5-2 special goals: pp: 2 sh: 1 total: 3 scorer g a pts cheveldae 0 1 1 chiasson 0 2 2 ciccarelli 1 1 2 coffey 0 1 1 drake 1 2 3 fedorov 0 2 2 hiller 0 1 1 kozlov 1 0 1 sheppard 1 0 1 ysebaert 1 0 1 vancouver: 1 power play: 6-1 scorer g a pts bure 0 1 1 ronning 1 0 1 slegr 0 1 1 buffalo 1 1 0--2 boston 1 1 1--3 first period 1, buffalo, audette 12 (corkum, wood) 16:40. 2, boston, juneau 30 (neely, oates) 18:39. second period 3, buffalo, errey 9 (lafontaine, khmylev) 10:51. 4, boston, douris 3 (d.sweeney, bourque) 17:57. third period 5, boston, donato 12 (unassisted) 17:42. boston: 3 power play: 4-0 scorer g a pts bourque 0 1 1 donato 1 0 1 douris 1 0 1 juneau 1 0 1 neely 0 1 1 oates 0 1 1 sweeney d 0 1 1 buffalo: 2 power play: 5-0 scorer g a pts audette 1 0 1 corkum 0 1 1 errey 1 0 1 khmylev 0 1 1 lafontaine 0 1 1 wood 0 1 1 calgary 1 1 0 1--3 san jose 0 2 0 0--2 first period 1, calgary, suter 21 (reichel, macinnis) pp, 17:47. second period 2, san jose, zmolek 5 (odgers, evason) 3:03. 3, san jose, kisio 24 (garpenlov, gaudreau) pp, 7:23. 4, calgary, lindberg 9 (macinnis) pp, 12:43. third period no scoring. 5, calgary, fleury 31 (otto, yawney) 3:06. calgary: 3 power play: 8-2 scorer g a pts fleury 1 0 1 lindberg 1 0 1 macinnis 0 2 2 otto 0 1 1 reichel 0 1 1 suter 1 0 1 yawney 0 1 1 san jose: 2 power play: 9-1 scorer g a pts evason 0 1 1 garpenlov 0 1 1 gaudreau 0 1 1 kisio 1 0 1 odgers 0 1 1 zmolek 1 0 1 pittsburgh 0 3 2--5 quebec 2 1 0--3 first period 1, quebec, kamensky 15 (huffman) 6:05. 2, quebec, young 27 (lapointe, huffman) 16:52. second period 3, pittsburgh, mullen 29 (lemieux, murphy) 3:54. 4, pittsburgh, lemieux 60 (tocchet, u.samuelsson) 5:07. 5, pittsburgh, lemieux 61 (tocchet, stevens) 8:12. 6, quebec, young 28 (sundin, kovalenko) pp, 14:52. third period 7, pittsburgh, tippett 4 (unassisted) sh, 3:52. 8, pittsburgh, tippett 5 (mceachern, mullen) 8:25. pittsburgh: 5 power play: 1-0 special goals: sh: 1 total: 1 scorer g a pts lemieux 2 1 3 mceachern 0 1 1 mullen 1 1 2 murphy 0 1 1 samuelsson u 0 1 1 stevens 0 1 1 tippett 2 0 2 tocchet 0 2 2 quebec: 3 power play: 4-1 scorer g a pts huffman 0 2 2 kamensky 1 0 1 kovalenko 0 1 1 lapointe 0 1 1 sundin 0 1 1 young 2 0 2 new jersey 0 0 0--0 toronto 0 0 1--1 first period no scoring. second period no scoring. third period 1, toronto, gilmour 32 (andreychuk, anderson) 16:22. toronto: 1 power play: 5-0 scorer g a pts anderson 0 1 1 andreychuk 0 1 1 gilmour 1 0 1 new jersey: 0 power play: 3-0 no scoring ottawa 1 0 2--3 hartford 5 1 1--7 first period 1, ottawa, maciver 17 (baker, luongo) 4:22. 2, hartford, kron 11 (nylander, gosselin) 5:13. 3, hartford, burt 4 (cassels, verbeek) 7:59. 4, hartford, cunneyworth 4 (yake, nylander) 9:59. 5, hartford, sanderson 42 (cassels, houda) 11:11. 6, hartford, verbeek 35 (cassels, zalapski) pp, 15:50. second period 7, hartford, sanderson 43 (cassels, zalapski) pp, 18:38. third period 8, hartford, kron 12 (poulin, burt) 4:57. 9, ottawa, turgeon 23 (lamb) 8:57. 10, ottawa, baker 17 (luongo, maciver) pp, 16:17. hartford: 7 power play: 3-2 scorer g a pts burt 1 1 2 cassels 0 4 4 cunneyworth 1 0 1 gosselin 0 1 1 houda 0 1 1 kron 2 0 2 nylander 0 2 2 poulin 0 1 1 sanderson 2 0 2 verbeek 1 1 2 yake 0 1 1 zalapski 0 2 2 ottawa: 3 power play: 7-1 scorer g a pts baker 1 1 2 lamb 0 1 1 luongo 0 2 2 maciver 1 1 2 turgeon 1 0 1 winnipeg 1 3 2--6 edmonton 1 0 3--4 first period 1, winnipeg, tkachuk 27 (housley, zhamnov) pp, 14:38. 2, edmonton, klima 31 (ciger, elik) 16:05. second period 3, winnipeg, king 8 (unassisted) 3:54. 4, winnipeg, zhamnov 21 (selanne) 10:25. 5, winnipeg, domi 5 (selanne, housley) 18:44. third period 6, edmonton, manson 15 (unassisted) 10:58. 7, winnipeg, eagles 8 (numminen, bautin) pp, 14:13. 8, winnipeg, zhamnov 22 (ulanov, selanne) 15:27. 9, edmonton, gelinas 8 (kravchuk, ranford) 16:48. 10, edmonton, kravchuk 10 (buchberger) 18:42. winnipeg: 6 power play: 5-2 scorer g a pts bautin 0 1 1 domi 1 0 1 eagles 1 0 1 housley 0 2 2 king 1 0 1 numminen 0 1 1 selanne 0 3 3 tkachuk 1 0 1 ulanov 0 1 1 zhamnov 2 1 3 edmonton: 4 power play: 3-0 scorer g a pts buchberger 0 1 1 ciger 0 1 1 elik 0 1 1 gelinas 1 0 1 klima 1 0 1 kravchuk 1 1 2 manson 1 0 1 ranford 0 1 1 chicago 0 3 0 0--3 st. louis 1 2 0 0--3 first period 1, st. louis, shanahan 46 (janney, hull) pp, 4:09. second period 2, chicago, murphy 4 (chelios, roenick) pp, 0:50. 3, st. louis, shanahan 47 (hedican, janney) 1:18. 4, chicago, noonan 16 (murphy, chelios) pp, 5:24. 5, st. louis, bozon 6, ps, 12:13. 6, chicago, roenick 43 (sutter, murphy) pp, 18:39. third period no scoring. no scoring. st. louis: 3 power play: 4-1 special goals: pp: 1 ps: 1 total: 2 scorer g a pts bozon 1 0 1 chelios 0 1 1 hedican 0 1 1 hull 0 1 1 janney 0 2 2 murphy 0 1 1 shanahan 2 0 2 chicago: 3 power play: 3-3 scorer g a pts chelios 0 2 2 murphy 1 2 3 noonan 1 0 1 roenick 1 1 2 sutter 0 1 1 montreal 0 1 2--3 ny islanders 0 2 0--2 first period no scoring. second period 1, montreal, brunet 10 (carbonneau, daigneault) 4:39. 2, ny islanders, turgeon 51 (thomas, kurvers) pp, 9:14. 3, ny islanders, mullen 16 (unassisted) 15:13. third period 4, montreal, bellows 38 (desjardins, dipietro) 3:01. 5, montreal, damphousse 38 (desjardins, bellows) pp, 10:11. montreal: 3 power play: 5-1 scorer g a pts bellows 1 1 2 brunet 1 0 1 carbonneau 0 1 1 daigneault 0 1 1 damphousse 1 0 1 desjardins 0 2 2 dipietro 0 1 1 ny islanders: 2 power play: 5-1 scorer g a pts kurvers 0 1 1 mullen 1 0 1 thomas 0 1 1 turgeon 1 0 1 minnesota 2 1 0--3 los angeles 0 0 0--0 first period 1, minnesota, dahlen 33 (unassisted) 2:34. 2, minnesota, courtnall 33 (dahlen, modano) pp, 9:30. second period 3, minnesota, mcphee 14 (sjodin, hatcher) pp, 7:24. third period no scoring. minnesota: 3 power play: 11-2 scorer g a pts courtnall 1 0 1 dahlen 1 1 2 hatcher 0 1 1 mcphee 1 0 1 modano 0 1 1 sjodin 0 1 1 los angeles: 0 power play: 5-0 no scoring 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52562">
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 b(--> stanley cup champion: vancouver canucks sorry, pittsburgh in a walk. first of all, the penguins will win the cup again. who is going to stop them? definitely not the canucks! my predictions: patrick division winner: pittsburgh adams division winner: quebec or montreal norris division winner: detroit smythe division winner: winnipeg wales conference champ: pittsburgh campbell conference champ: detroit stanley cup champions(again): pittsburgh canucks suck. they'll lose in the first round, compliments of winnipeg and teemu selanne. the pens are almost unstoppable with mario lemieux. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52565">
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 they were, and even if washington might consider patty a bust, i'd rework that trade in a minute. druce has been a complete and utter bust here, only 5 goals. well, druce pretty much sucked when he was with the caps. he had one good **playoffs** (not season). oh well. the caps are notorious for making stupid trades anyway, as can be seen with the cicarelli and hrivnak trades. in another note... i'd have to say the caps biggest surprise was cote, as many caps fans had been expecting a lot from bondra already. go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52570">
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 when talking about hockey broadcasters, let's give a moment of silence to remember the st. louis blues' great, dan kelly. (many of you may have heard him in the late 60s and early 70s on cbs.) he used to do hockey night in canada intermissions, with another recently deceased great, danny gallivan of the canadiens. agreed here...i'll never forget dan kelly calling the play-by-play in the '87 canada cup. he was masterful! and danny gallivan will _never_ be replaced; even now when i watch hnic i remember his voice...when i see an al macinnis or al iafrate (hey, what's with these guys named al who can shoot??) shot from the point i still think "blistering blast"...thn had a tribute to gallivan in the issue following his death; in the story they included a quote from one of the games he did. it went: "it appears risebrough has pugnaciously construed that check," he said, "and will undoubtedly make a visitation to the box of punition." classic, vintage gallivan! he's sorely missed. so here's to two of the best there was and best that ever will be. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52573">
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 okay you hockey playing fans/finatics out there. i'm looking over the wide range of aluminum sticks for the first time. i've been playing with pieces of lumbar that seem to weigh alot and break after a few uses, so i'm thinking of changing to an aluminum shaft so when i break the blade all i have to do is change it. the problem is that there is such a wide reange of models and selections out there that i'm not certain which to consider. can any of you post some of your suggestions and experiences with the aluminum sticks? what is the difference between models? what do you like/dislike about them? and, which brands are best? i've had, and still have a few aluminum sticks. i got my first when i was 15 (a christian), and broke the shaft halfway through the season, two years later. i bought another (a canadian) at the beginning of the next season, and i still have it. i also have an easton, that a friend was getting rid off, after giving up the game. i find that easton blades are easier to get, but all brands of blades are pretty well interchangeable. watch out for dried up bits of firewood, that some stores pass off as blades. in my experiences, the blades of an aluminum break more often than regular sticks, but i've only ever broken one aluminum shaft. i like aluminum sticks. the blades are quickly changed, even on the bench if you have to. on the downside, the shaft won't break if you decide to impale yourself on it :-) mark s. "this is between me and the vegetable" - rick moranis in little shop of horrors mark shoesmith shoe@physics.watstar.uwaterloo.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52574">
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 i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps, biggest surprises, and biggest disappointments this year. now, these are just my observations and are admittedly lacking because i have not had an opportunity to see all the teams the same amount. anyway.... team: mvp: surprise: disappointment: edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby well, since the oilers didn't win a heck of a lot of games, i'm not sure they deserve and mvp ("can't win without him"). however, i'd suggest kelly buchberger instead of dave manson, who has had a brutal year, his pick for the all-star game notwithstanding. as for biggest surprise, i'd say that buchberger had higher expectations this year due to his "breakthrough" year (for him) last year, so he didn't really raise his game. my suggestion would be shjon podein, one of the callups from cape breton during the year. he was quite far down on the depth chart in the oilers stable of prospects, but made a big impact on the team. he has 12 goals in his 33 games and is only -1. those are decent numbers for a third-line player who was seemingly doomed to minor-league oblivion. the oilers coaching staff likens his style to john tonelli. i think he'll be on the full-time roster next year. as for biggest disappointment, you could name any of the players the oilers dumped for lousy production this year (nicholls, gilchrist, tikkanen) or even shayne corson, but mellanby isn't far off. andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom division | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52577">
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 team biggest biggest team: mvp: surprise: disappointment: boston bruins oates d.sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette (jinx?) calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet chelios is by far the mvp on chicago... detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby manson, by his own admission, had a terrible year...the oilers don't really have a team mvp...by default, it should go to craig mactavish. shjon podein was the biggest surprise...tikkanen the biggest disappointment. hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi(not expected back) broten tinordi was back by mid-season last year...and when he plays he is the mvp. montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king(finally) marois king had a great year last year also. new york rangers messier kovalev bourque how can kovalev be a surprise? ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros/recchi fedyk/galley eklund fence-sitting...look at philly's record with eric and without... there is no doubt. soderstrom is probably the biggest surprise. pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet(even for him) jagr tocchet had a near 100 point season in philly with mike bullard as his center...why shouldn't he be able to do that with mario? quebec nordiques sakic/ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c.joseph ron sutter really joseph deserves the mvp nod. tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton/kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett/anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved(finally) momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra/cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52580">
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 tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send 4 players + $15 million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to phillidelphia, phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa, and ottawa will give it's first round pick to montreal. if this is true, it will most likely depend on whether or not ottawa gets to choose 1st overall. can ottawa afford lindros' salary? personally, i can't see philli giving up lindros -- for anything. they didn't give away that much to quebec just to trade him away again. not to mention that lindros seems to be a *huge* draw in phillie -- and that he represents a successful future for the ottawa may be better off taking the 4 players +$15 from montreal for the pick. stephen legge slegge@kean.ucs.munc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52582">
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 i prefer the miami colons myself. headline: flames blow out colons, 9-1 would kevin dineen play for the miami colons??? as a flyers fan, i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes:-)! aw, just take a moment to digest it and i'm sure you'll see the humour... thomas a. darling \\\ the cellar bbs & public access system: 215.539.3043 darling@cellar.org \\\ genie: t.darling \\ facthq "truth thru technology" v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52583">
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 team biggest biggest team: mvp: surprise: disappointment: washington capitals hatcher bondra/cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce weren't these two traded for each other? poetic justice. they were, and even if washington might consider patty a bust, i'd rework that trade in a minute. druce has been a complete and utter bust here, only 5 goals. daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52584">
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 did you ever notice how many people on the net have trouble in the comparitively easy task of spelling the nick name of our fair city? i never knew that philadelphia becomes phillie or philli when spoken of. so for all you who don't know yet here's a _little_ clue. it is spelled: p h i l l y ok...thank you. oh yeah, about that drug-induced trade rumor....i don't think the sniders are that stupid...the rumor you should be looking into is mike keenan coming back to coach the flyers. mike cornell | "there are a great many people in the country today who, mac18@po.cwru.edu| through no fault of their own, are sane." -monty python let's go flyers! stanley cup in '94! "oh! my brain hurts!"- mr d. p. gumby 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52585">
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 the adams division race is certainly interesting this year. here are important data to keep in mind in the eventuality of a tie for a given standing position. in head to head games: quebec wins over montreal, 4-3-0; boston leads against quebec, 3-1-1 with two games remaining; montreal and boston are tied, 4-4-0 with one game remaining. (..) pierre breton (aka fluide glacial) for purposes of the tie breaker, you only count the first three games in each city. therefore, quebec cannot possibly be ahead of montreal 4-3, and there's probably only one game that counts remaining between boston and quebec, which means boston has probably already won. pete clark - rsh flyers contact 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52589">
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 ten years ago, the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now. going into the 1992/93 season, the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats: canadians: 400 americans: 100 europeans: 100 please note that these numbers are rounded off, and taken from the top 25 players on each of the 24 teams. my source is the vancouver sun. here's the point: there are far too many europeans in the nhl. i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team (let's say, the red wings and the canucks) and seeing names like "bure" "konstantinov" and "borshevshky". is this north america or isn't it? toronto, detriot, quebec, and edmonton are particularly annoying, but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well. i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about "pavel bure, the russian rocket" i will completely throw up. as it is now, every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross-check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher. (by the way, i'm not a canucks fan to begin with ;-). okay, the stretcher remark was a little carried away. but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians (and some americans). it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans, who aren't even better hockey players. it's all hype. this "european mystique" is sickening, but until nhl owners get over it, canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league. with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating, the problem is clearly only getting worse. i'm all for the creation of a european hockey league, and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent. i just don't want them on mine. richard j. rauser "you have no idea what you're doing." rauser@sfu.ca "oh, don't worry about that. we're professional wni outlaws - we do this for a living." "remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -dr.banzai 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52591">
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 if anyone out there is keeping an islanders e-mail list, could you please add me to it? thanks in advance. can u add me onto the list too....thanks... count me in !!!! go isles! bui@ee470.ee.mcgill.ca please count me in also... just can't tell you how excited i was when the islanders beat the rangers in overtime on last friday!!! go isles! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52592">
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 on fri, 2 apr 1993 22:05:16 gmt, vamwendt@atlas.cs.upei.ca (michael wendt) said 16. albany (new york), boise (idaho)--a couple of cities with fair interest but size and closeness to other teams is a question. albany has their ahl franchise (though it goes by the capital district label), but boise? forget it. the chl made an attempt at that part of the country in 1983-84, with a franchise in great falls -- and no one showed up. folks up in that part of the pnw just aren't interested in hockey. hey patrick, the montana magic played in billings, not great falls... --plh, i know where i'd put the next two nhl expansion teams: phoenix and houston, assuming the whalers don't pack up and move in the meantime... marc, phoenix and houston it is... _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _ _ _____ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ - - /____/ marc foster, r.s.h contact for the oklahoma city blazers, 1993 central hockey university of oklahoma geography department league adams cup internet: mfoster@geohub.gcn.uoknor.edu champions mfoster@alliant.backbone.uoknor.edu to be placed on the chl mailing list, send email to either address above. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52597">
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 i prefer the miami colons myself. headline: flames blow out colons, 9-1 would kevin dineen play for the miami colons??? as a flyers fan, i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes:-)! aw, just take a moment to digest it and i'm sure you'll see the humour... thomas a. darling \\\ the cellar bbs & public access system: 215.539.3043 darling@cellar.org \\\ genie: t.darling \\ facthq "truth thru technology" v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding. lets go caps!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52598">
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 with the kind of team montreal has now, they can take the cup easily. the only problem they have right now is that everyone is trying to steal the show and play alone. they need some massive teamwork. this is known as the savard syndrome - and we are talking denis, not serge. no team will ever win squat with the likes of denis savard in their lineup. they are also in a little of a slump because long-time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and it was rough on everybody because he has worked with the organization for 21 years. but i know that is no excuse. but if the habs manage to get some good teamwork and get into the spirit, they should have no problem winning in may. they could tell savard to stay home and watch the games on tv. i agree. i also think roy needs a good kick sometimes...that horrible 4-0 loss to the capitals last week...yeeeech! here's to cup #23...this year! sounds like #12 to me. cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52599">
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 tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported tht montreal will send 4 players + $15 million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to philldelphia, phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa, and ottawa will give it's first round pick to montreal. personally, i can't see philli giving up lindros -- for anything. here we go again. is this the same idiot who posted the gretzky trade to toronto???? ^^^^^?!!! listen, *asshole*, i'm just commenting on what i heard reported on the sports news!! you'll notice my skeptical comment! sheesh... i thought this group wasfor conversation! guess i was wrong. }-< stephen legge slegge@kean.ucs.munc.ca 
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 ten years ago, the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now. going into the 1992/93 season, the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats: canadians: 400 americans: 100 europeans: 100 here's the point: there are far too many europeans in the nhl. i am sick you know, you're absolutely right. i think we should round up all those players of european descent and ship 'em back to where they came from. let's see, with whom should we start? i dunno, lemieux? hmmm...sounds like he has *french* blood in him!!! hey! france is part of europe! send that euro-blooded boy back!!! i'm all for the creation of a european hockey league, and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent. i just don't want them on mine. i don't think it would be hard to find some native americans (or native canadians, for that matter) who would dispute your claim to this great continent of *ours.* ya see, if you believe the anthropologists, we're *all* immigrants of some sort. if you really don't think that mogilny, bure, selanne, et al have improved the nhl, then i'm not sure you understand the dan lyddy daniell@cory.berkeley.edu university of california at berkeley "no, i don't play hockey. not too many brothers do." -- deion sanders 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52601">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52601" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i prefer the miami colons myself. headline: flames blow out colons, 9-1 would kevin dineen play for the miami colons??? as a flyers fan, i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes:-)! aw, just take a moment to digest it and i'm sure you'll see the humour... if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding. what about his rectum? go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52602">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52602" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ra> here's the point: there are far too many europeans in the nhl. r> i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian ra> team (let's say, the red wings and the canucks) and seeing names r> like "bure" "konstantinov" and "borshevshky". is this north america ra> isn't it? i disagree. i think the nhl should feature the best hockey talent in the world -- regardless of nationality. i have to admit that when i see players like gretzky and messier traded off to the us because the canadian teams can't afford them, i have been know to say (only half- seriously) that we'd probably be better off if we had our own canadian hockey league for canadian players! ;-) ra> i'm all for the creation of a european hockey league, and let ra> te bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent. ra> ra> i just don't want themon mine. again, it doesn't matter to me -- russian, finnish, mexican, albertan, new yorker, black, white, korean, martian, plutoneon, ... it doesn't any of them can put a leafs' jersey on if they can put the puck in! stephen legge slegge@kean.ucs.munc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52603">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52603" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i prefer the miami colons myself. headline: flames blow out colons, 9-1 would kevin dineen play for the miami colons??? as a flyers fan, i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes:-)! aw, just take a moment to digest it and i'm sure you'll see the humour... if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding. what about his rectum? it's bad jokes like that which draws crohns, i mean groans from the crowd... don't bother looking it up in the appendix, it's useless anyway. just one more word of advice... if you go to a miami game, stay away from any foods made with "natural casings" __-----__ _______________________ / _______ \ / \ |_// \/ \ \_| / hockey! hockey! hockey! \ /__|o||o|__u\ \ joy! joy! joy! / |/_ \_/\_/ _u | \_______________________/ | | (____) | || // stimpson j kat \/\___/\__/ // // stimpy@dev-null.phys.psu.edu (_/ _5_ ~~~| // nagy@physci.psu.edu | \*/ |\/ nagy@cs.psu.edu \___v_____/_/ nagy@crayola.cs.psu.edu \____/---// nagy@love-shack.com __|| _----- and oh yeah... (____(____) ggn100@psuvm.[psu.edu,bitnet] 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52604">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52604" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 lake state/maine in finals...who won? please post. maine 5, lssu 4. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52608">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52608" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 does anyone have the addresses to any of the following hockey teams located in the czech/slovak republics, finland, russia or sweden? any information on how to find these addresses would also be appreciated. hv-71 jyp ht red army soviet wings dee dee france ddf@sgi.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52610">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52610" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 in the smythe: this one is the toughest for me to call, because i have to put personal bias aside (go calgary). i think a lot depends on who wins the division. winnipeg will move into third by the end of the season, and the first place winner will have a clear advantage. it will be a lot easier to build momentum against a team like the kings. whoever plays the kings in the first round will take the division. much as it hurts, i have to pick, division winner - vancouver canucks i'll have to disagree with you on this one. i think vancouver will go as bure goes, and if he continues on his goal scoring slump, then they won't even make it out of the first round. i think the kings will make it out of the first round, regardless of who they play. they seem to be doing pretty well, even with that bad game against minnesota on saturday. i think it'll be either calgary or los angeles to win the smythe (i.e. go on to the conference finals). wales conference trophy: islanders and bruins will fight to the end, but i think the islanders have enough steam to overtake the bruins in seven. campbell conference trophy: a walk for vancouver, maybe in 5 or 6 but definately not 7. stanley cup final: islanders and vancouver. islanders will have nothing left by this point and will succumb fairly easily to the canucks. stanley cup champion: vancouver canucks still have to disagree with you here. i think it'll be pittsburg to get the hat trick in stanley cups. they just look toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good. i hope you have enjoyed my predictions. i hope they are not all correct (go calgary). neither do i. well, may the best team win it all (pittsburg). that's just my $.02 worth. message from the terminal of: carol boudreau <boudreau@athena.mit.edu> 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52611">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52611" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i haven't seen anyone post this so i will do the honors. maine beat lssu 5-4 in milwaukee on saturday night. it was quite a game. maine stormed to a 2-0 lead in the first and looked like they might run away with it. maine's first goal came inside the first thirty seconds of the game. lssu came back at the end of the period to cut the lead to 2-1. lssu came out in the second dominating the play particularly along the boards. the play went quickly with the refs running a no-holds-barred type of game. lssu scored three more unanswered goals to lead 4-2 at the end of the second. now it looked like lssu might just walk away with the game. coach walsh, of maine, replaced the starting goalie dunham with snow, who won the game against michigan. snow proved to be a much more aggressive goalie. the third period, like the second, belonged to the team behind. maine scored three unanswered goals in a span of five minutes after the four minute mark. they were all scored by jim montgomery, the tournament mvp, and all assisted by paul kariya. the last minute of the game bears highlighting. the change to snow also proved the difference in the end. with one minute to go and with the lssu goalie pulled, snow dueled with a lssu forward in a amazing set of moves by both. snow won. it was a great way to end the game. this year's three championships games were sold out last year in about one month. the bradley center holds approximately 17,700. douglas j. peterson have _--____ ____ peterson@pms860.pms.ford.com you ` / ---- / safety laboratories department driven -/- __ ____ _ / ford motor company a . / / \--/___/ \/ (313) 390-8089 \_/ ,\_/ / \_/_ lately? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52613">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52613" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 team biggest biggest team: mvp: surprise: disappointment: philadelphia flyers lindros/recchi fedyk/galley eklund fence-sitting...look at philly's record with eric and without... there is no doubt. soderstrom is probably the biggest surprise. re eric: true, but fortunately we didn't get to find out what they would be like without recchi for 30 games. soderstrom: absolutely. 4 shutouts in 39 games for a rookie without a lot of defense in front of him. runnerups to galley and fedyk who are scoring a ton over their career best. but galley thinks he's paul coffey (puts scoring ahead of defending) and fedyk has tailed off big time. eklund: was a big question mark this year and was coming off injuries. 42 points in 49 games is not bad at all, and recently he's been a huge factor in the wins they've gotten. eklund has never had a point a game season in his career, his production is very typical for him. how does he qualify as a disappointment? if anything he's a surprise. my choice would be roussel if i went strictly by what was expected of players, but i never thought that he had what it takes to be a #1 goalie. my biggest disappointment is bill dineen. i thought that he was going to be the perfect coach for this young team, instead he's made too many bad moves and imho has cost them enough games to keep them out of the playoffs this year. any coach that thinks putting eric lindros at the point on power plays is a bright idea needs to go back to coaching school. pete clark jr - rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52620">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52620" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i was reading a newspaper tidbit that mentioned that there is a grammatical error on the stanley cup. this newspaper, "the union leader" (manchester, new hampshire), stated that one of the years that the new york islanders won the cup, the printing on the actual cup stated "new york ilanders". can anyone verify this?? i forgot the exact year that this supposedly occured. any die-hard islander fans know about this?? the reason why i am asking is because the paper is not very reliable, we call it "the union mis-leader". plymouth state college r_turgeo@oz.plymouth.edu speaking of spelling errors on the cup, i wonder if the "h" in pittsburgh made it to the cup. you know how funny people can be about spelling pittsburgh. warren arbogast darden visual communications "with 10 miles behind them university of virginia and 10,000 more to go" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52622">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52622" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 could anyone recommend a mail order distributor for hockey equipment. thanks in advance < wayne e. westerhold wester@dg-rtp.dg.com > < data general corporation research triangle park, nc > 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52624">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52624" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 you know, you're absolutely right. i think we should round up all those players of european descent and ship 'em back to where they came from. let's see, with whom should we start? i dunno, lemieux? hmmm...sounds like he has *french* blood in him!!! hey! france is part of europe! send that euro-blooded boy back!!! don't you americans study history...the french settled in north america as early or before the british...lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back a lot further than most of us. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52630">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52630" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 here are the standings after the april 6 update. i'll be leaving for japan in 1.5 hours, and i won't be back until april 17. consequently, i will not post the week 27 results until april 18. email sent between april 13 and april 18 will be processed using the numbers available april 18. usenet hockey draft standings week 26 posn team pts proj cash last posn 1. dave wessels 1478 1575.3 1.9 (1) 2. gilles carmel 1389 1533.8 56.3 (5) 3. bob hill 1418 1530.8 24.0 (2) 4. the awesome oilers 1366 1509.9 68.6 (3) 5. seppo kemppainen 1372 1508.9 47.2 (6) 6. mak "the knife" paranjape 1376 1501.8 31.0 (4) 7. hillside raiders 1397 1490.7 7.0 (7) 8. jan stein 1354 1478.8 35.3 (9) 9. rangers of destiny 1346 1472.5 42.0 (10) 10. this years model 1368 1471.8 17.6 (8) 11. tapio repo 1354 1461.0 19.6 (12) 12. frank's big fish 1341 1448.3 22.0 (14) 13. the underachievers 1309 1446.5 65.4 (16) 14. on thin ice 1333 1445.5 32.3 (11) 15. lindros losers 1349 1436.9 1.7 (13) 16. littlest giants 1319 1435.7 35.6 (15) 17. go flames 1290 1422.6 64.4 (17) 18. mopar muscle men 1328 1411.7 3.7 (19) 19. die penguin bandwaggoners 1304 1409.7 20.2 (18) 20. samuel lau (calgary, alberta) 1298 1383.2 4.9 (21) 21. general accounting office 1272 1373.8 20.9 (22) 22. migods menschen 1259 1367.0 31.6 (20) 23. boomer's boys 1285 1366.1 0.2 (23) 24. delaware wombats 1285 1356.2 1.3 (24) 25. wellsy's buttheads dec nh 1223 1354.4 52.6 (27) 26. rocky mountain high 1270 1349.3 1.8 (29) 27. fife flyers 1232 1346.3 31.4 (26) 28. gerald olchowy 1231 1343.0 33.7 (25) 29. fluide glacial 1246 1338.5 18.0 (28) 30. gaoler 1227 1318.3 11.2 (30) 31. smegheads 1238 1313.0 0.3 (32) 32. the young and the skateless 1185 1299.7 42.9 (31) 33. artic storm 1179 1291.8 39.3 (43) 34. sam & his dogs 1206 1289.0 11.6 (33) 35. neural netters 1199 1287.9 11.3 (35) 36. youngbucs 1157 1286.6 101.7 (34) 37. soft swedes 1154 1275.3 46.9 (58) 38. jeff horvath 1188 1262.7 5.6 (39) 39. yan the man loke 1180 1261.3 0.7 (40) 40. milton keynes kings 1180 1259.6 2.8 (42) 41. hamster from hoboken 1178 1257.5 8.7 (36) 42. le fleur de lys 1159 1257.3 25.3 (46) 43. ice legion 1157 1256.6 28.8 (37) 44. simmonac 1133 1254.4 87.6 (44) 45. kuehn crushers 1137 1253.1 45.1 (72) 46. the finnish force 1149 1249.4 22.5 (48) 47. streaks 1117 1247.1 54.8 (38) 48. legion of hoth 1156 1246.3 15.8 (52) 49. goaldingers 1146 1240.6 22.0 (45) 50. grant marven 1155 1236.0 2.9 (50) 51. bemybaby 1161 1235.2 7.3 (49) 52. t c overachievers 1162 1232.8 2.9 (47) 53. skriko wolves 1151 1232.4 5.4 (53) 54. bozrah bruins 1117 1230.7 45.2 (41) 55. brian bergman 1132 1229.3 23.3 (51) 56. lippe 1132 1214.7 13.9 (65) 57. randy coulman 1140 1214.5 5.2 (56) 58. lamp lighters 1138 1214.2 5.9 (66) 59. dave snell 1089 1212.5 182.5 (60) 60. steven and mark dream team 1133 1210.6 3.1 (53) 61. houdini's magicians 1126 1209.9 18.3 (59) 62. real bad toe jam 1096 1208.6 48.9 (63) 63. rec.sport.hockey choices 1137 1208.3 1.3 (63) 64. iowa hockeyes 1118 1205.7 16.3 (55) 65. buffalo soldiers 1085 1204.6 62.1 (57) 66. indianapolis bennies 1114 1200.6 20.8 (67) 67. bloom county all stars 1121 1199.2 4.3 (61) 68. tom 1109 1194.0 13.1 (68) 69. phil and kev's karma dudes 1121 1192.6 0.8 (69) 70. aik exiles 1078 1188.1 34.5 (70) 71. doug bowles 1099 1186.4 20.0 (62) 72. bruins 1117 1184.9 0.1 (75) 73. smithw 1095 1184.3 21.0 (71) 74. the great pumpkin 1057 1178.6 54.4 (73) 75. shooting seamen 1111 1177.8 0.1 (77) 76. frank worthless 1099 1176.6 6.3 (82) 77. non! 1089 1175.7 16.4 (74) 78. invisible inc 1104 1173.5 1.1 (79) 79. brad gibson 1075 1169.0 27.2 (89) 80. chubby checkers 1074 1165.6 16.3 (85) 81. plp fools 1092 1164.8 0.1 (76) 82. john zupancic 1063 1164.2 27.1 (78) 83. staffan axelsson 1082 1163.0 15.1 (80) 84. david wong 1038 1162.5 66.1 (87) 85. kortelaisen kovat 1041 1160.7 164.1 (92) 86. chocolate rockets 1083 1158.9 2.5 (83) 87. ken decruyenaere 1078 1158.8 5.0 (94) 88. cougarmania 1061 1154.7 24.8 (86) 89. garryola 1073 1152.9 9.7 (81) 90. derrill's dastardly dozen 1062 1149.6 22.1 (88) 91. no namers 1033 1147.6 58.2 (91) 92. the campi machine 1022 1145.8 65.3 (90) 93. gary bergman fan club 1071 1145.1 5.1 (98) 94. fisher dirtbags 1073 1144.1 0.7 (93) 95. kodiaks 1076 1141.0 1.3 (84) 96. arsenal maple leafs 1066 1136.0 3.8 (99) 97. the kamucks 1020 1134.1 76.1 (105) 98. bsc oranienburg 1067 1132.1 7.1 (102) 99. bloodgamers 1018 1127.1 42.1 (97) 100. ellis islanders 1055 1125.5 7.6 (100) 101. mombasa mosquitos 1053 1125.4 6.1 (95) 102. edelweiss 1049 1122.8 2.9 (101) 103. zachmans wingers 1006 1117.7 49.8 (103) 104. wormtown woosbags 1001 1114.6 72.6 (96) 105. dirty white socks 1008 1113.6 43.4 (106) 106. hurricane andrew 1040 1113.5 7.6 (104) 107. larry 1034 1113.2 11.8 (109) 108. votenooct26 1010 1108.5 31.8 (108) bruce's rented mules 1033 1108.5 11.9 (110) 110. king suke 1042 1108.2 0.1 (112) 111. teem kanada 1030 1105.3 16.0 (115) 112. bjoern leaguen 987 1104.7 61.4 (123) 113. frank's follies 1020 1101.2 24.2 (117) 114. neil younger 985 1100.9 77.7 (120) 115. het schot is hard 1027 1100.8 18.1 (121) 116. psv dartmouth 1033 1100.7 7.1 (107) 117. pond slime 1034 1096.8 0.7 (111) 118. stanford ice hawks 1008 1096.5 28.2 (114) 119. spuds 1019 1096.4 12.6 (113) 120. mark sanders 1020 1091.9 11.1 (116) 121. oklahoma stormchasers 1004 1089.9 28.3 (137) 122. timo ojala 1015 1084.2 0.3 (130) 123. nesbitt 1025 1083.0 1.1 (118) 124. aye carumba!!! 1016 1082.4 3.9 (124) 125. kokudo keikaku bunnies 976 1081.2 40.3 (119) 126. blue talon 1007 1080.0 13.3 (129) 127. apricot fuzzfaces 1001 1078.3 23.3 (125) 128. haral 1013 1077.8 7.3 (122) 129. garys team 995 1076.5 17.1 (126) 130. late night with david letterman 1013 1075.3 0.0 (133) 131. arctic circles 974 1075.2 37.6 (132) 132. the lost poots 1000 1072.9 6.7 (127) seattle pftb 988 1072.9 22.9 (134) 134. boutch 92-93 987 1071.5 20.0 (135) 135. dirty rotten puckers 1001 1071.2 1.2 (147) 136. flying kiwis 998 1069.8 9.1 (130) cluster buster 996 1069.8 7.6 (136) 138. scott glenn 999 1068.7 10.2 (142) 139. dree hobbs 988 1068.5 13.4 (146) 140. go bruins 999 1066.6 6.2 (144) 141. le groupe mi 975 1065.4 30.2 (141) 142. team gold 992 1065.1 16.7 (128) 143. closet boy's boys 955 1063.4 48.0 (140) 144. gary bill pens dynasty 982 1063.2 19.6 (151) mckees rocks rockers 998 1063.2 5.1 (151) 146. tim rogers 987 1061.9 8.1 (148) 147. andy y f wong 982 1061.1 21.5 (143) 148. buttered waffles 947 1059.6 46.0 (145) 149. bob's blues 951 1059.2 46.8 (139) 150. princeton canucks 945 1058.9 124.2 (154) 151. go habs go 989 1058.7 8.0 (149) 152. wembley lostweekenders 998 1057.6 0.3 (157) 153. wild hearted sons 993 1057.5 4.9 (138) 154. einstein's rock band 994 1054.8 0.0 (160) 155. tap 989 1053.0 0.5 (150) 156. goddess of fermentation 964 1051.0 30.2 (156) 157. hunters & collectors 945 1050.6 42.4 (163) 158. dr joel fleishman 985 1048.7 3.7 (159) 159. furleys furies 983 1048.6 3.6 (153) 160. convex stars 979 1047.9 5.6 (161) 161. les nordiques 939 1046.9 60.4 (155) 162. my team 932 1045.3 174.8 (167) 163. hubert's hockey homeboys 980 1043.9 0.6 (162) book 'em danno's bushbabies 977 1043.9 10.5 (169) 165. riding the pine 956 1038.7 20.7 (158) 166. sundogs 975 1037.1 0.4 (166) 167. jeff nimeroff 927 1037.0 48.8 (172) 168. slap shot marco 930 1036.0 51.8 (164) 169. daryl turner 976 1035.8 2.4 (179) 170. the dreamers 921 1033.1 63.7 (180) 171. east city jokers 919 1031.6 69.1 (173) 172. flowers 921 1031.4 113.6 (168) 173. satan's choice 961 1030.1 14.5 (171) 174. the leafs rule!!!! 943 1030.0 25.8 (165) 175. pierre mailhot 969 1029.9 2.6 (174) 176. voyageurs 968 1029.4 2.7 (170) 177. spinal tap 928 1029.1 41.4 (176) 178. san jose mahi mahi 939 1026.7 31.8 (185) stimpy adg zeta 949 1026.7 21.0 (182) 180. jeff bachovchin 916 1024.7 46.7 (175) 181. bulldogs 941 1024.5 23.4 (184) 182. lana inc 940 1021.0 27.3 (177) 183. big bad bruins 939 1020.6 18.5 (186) 184. mike mac cormack sydney ns can 904 1019.1 107.2 (183) 185. darse billings 925 1017.8 34.7 (178) 186. chappel's chumps 934 1017.6 24.0 (181) 187. jimparker 903 1014.5 179.0 (192) 188. republican dirty tricksters 894 1008.0 66.0 (189) 189. enforcers 924 1007.8 28.1 (191) 190. absolut lehigh 937 1007.7 8.9 (190) 191. yellow plague 933 1005.0 14.2 (187) 192. dr.d and the s.o.d. 929 1003.8 17.1 (198) 193. bunch of misfits 916 1003.3 23.8 (188) 194. ninja turtles 942 1000.8 1.3 (194) 195. great expectations 934 999.3 2.3 (196) 196. cherry bombers 939 998.1 1.2 (200) 197. henry's bar b q 941 998.0 0.7 (195) 198. robyns team 907 993.5 30.0 (198) 199. team melville 891 991.8 46.9 (202) 200. umpire 4 life 919 990.9 11.1 (193) 201. acadien 914 988.9 18.3 (197) 202. kaufbeuren icebreakers 894 988.2 37.6 (207) 203. firebirds 926 986.5 3.9 (201) 204. jayson's kinky pucks 904 986.1 26.9 (203) 205. cobra's killers 891 982.5 31.7 (208) 206. outlaws 871 981.6 164.9 (206) 207. kuta papercuts 912 981.5 18.5 (204) 208. killer apes 902 979.9 24.3 (205) 209. darman's dragons 896 979.4 28.3 (211) 210. roger smith 882 978.2 39.6 (212) 211. those 1st few weeks hurt! 862 975.1 55.9 (210) 212. thundering herd 860 972.8 163.6 (218) 213. ikea wholesale 910 970.2 1.7 (214) 214. believe it or dont 895 968.7 21.1 (215) 215. fred mckim 861 966.8 93.0 (217) 216. 400 hurricane 880 966.4 32.1 (216) 217. creeping death 886 965.0 21.3 (220) 218. knee injuries 897 964.9 10.4 (213) 219. the 200 club 902 964.7 6.8 (209) 220. crazy euros 888 962.1 17.9 (219) 221. frack attack 875 961.8 27.3 (226) 222. todd's turkeys 898 957.0 1.9 (229) 223. ryan's renegades 858 956.4 50.9 (225) 224. cafall and crew 862 955.9 38.3 (222) 225. pig vomit 894 955.2 1.3 (227) 226. ice strykers 848 954.4 105.4 (221) 227. fighting geordies 850 954.1 141.6 (223) 228. cdn stuck in alabama 886 945.7 10.3 (231) 229. ship's way 884 943.4 8.7 (233) 230. swillbellies 870 942.8 18.7 (228) 231. oz 851 941.8 35.0 (235) 232. chris of death 835 939.3 83.6 (234) 233. banko's beer rangers 875 938.6 4.2 (230) 234. ny flames 872 938.1 7.8 (232) 235. laubsters ii 828 937.4 201.6 (237) 236. dayton bomber 882 935.1 0.0 (241) 237. zipper heads 847 931.7 33.9 (224) 238. ninja bunnies 826 928.1 44.9 (236) 239. joliet inmates 832 926.0 45.8 (239) 240. widefield white wolves 832 924.1 36.9 (242) 241. daves team 834 920.9 32.0 (238) 242. great scott 814 917.8 73.3 (240) 243. south carolina tiger paws 806 915.1 78.4 (243) 244. sandy's sabres 854 910.8 4.7 (245) 245. florida tech burgh team 809 904.6 49.3 (250) 246. the ice holes 850 903.9 2.7 (246) 247. leos blue chips 845 902.9 10.4 (244) 248. for xtc 837 897.8 8.2 (248) 249. roadrunners 826 895.9 18.5 (249) 250. mudville kings 816 894.0 27.6 (251) 251. redliners 820 890.8 15.9 (253) 252. pat phillips 827 889.1 10.1 (247) 253. new jersey rob 835 883.0 0.7 (252) 254. stewart clamen 821 869.4 1.6 (255) 255. demon spawn 782 860.1 25.0 (254) 256. sunnyvale storm 772 813.5 0.2 (256) 257. allez les blues 713 810.7 476.9 (257) 258. up for sale hockey club 725 795.0 23.0 (260) 259. petes picks 689 788.1 168.5 (258) 260. rinaco 682 781.6 114.0 (259) 261. brenz revenge 669 718.5 4.0 (261) 262. dinamo riga 571 663.8 571.6 (262) andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52633">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52633" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 here's the point: there are far too many europeans in the nhl. i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team (let's say, the red wings and the canucks) and seeing names like "bure" "konstantinov" and "borshevshky". is this north america or isn't it? toronto, detriot, quebec, and edmonton are particularly annoying, but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well. i'm sick too watching all-american names like gretzky etc. which names you accept ? sitting bull and dances with wolves ? it is north america. what are you doing here ? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52636">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52636" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i was playing this golf game and something interesting happened. on the 7th hole, i drove the ball down the fairway, when the ball was in mid-flight, the game completely froze. a couple seconds later, the screen went completely black, with an error message in large "bubble" letters that said division by zero. i thought it was funny considering i am a computer programmer, and i had never seen an error like this on an actual video game system like sega or nintendo (or even atari or intellevision years ago). oh yeah, after the message, there was also what must have been an address, in hexadecimal. i forget the exact hex code that was given. has this happened to anyone else??? it must have, my game shouldn't have been the only one to do this. r_turgeo@oz.plymouth.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52638">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52638" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 1. foul (any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick). if you get 5 you are out for the game. i've never seen a game where one player has committed 5 penalties. something like this would require more attention by the referee. 2. unsportsmanlike contact. (an intentional foul). this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing, fighting and boarding. if you get two you are thrown out of the game, and fined. 3. technical foul. bad mouthing the ref, by player or coach. penalty shot is awarded. two and you are thrown out of the game. besides the penalty shot for one technical, if the team gets 5 penalties in a period, the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one, until the end of the period. the victim gets two shots if he/she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured. this works well for several reasons. first, penalty shots are the most exciting thing in hockey, right? so, it follows that the more the better. next, when the player is setting up for a penalty shot, the network can take a commercial. finally, with only three penalties, the network announcers (don meredith, dick vitale, john madden, pat summerall, and marv levy, among others) will be able to tell the viewers what happened before the pa announcer says it. but you're creating a scoring opportunity where there might not have been one before. i can see the relationship between free throws awarded after a certain number of fouls, but it's obviously easier to score in basketball, there are more opportunities. if a basketball team scores 100 points, that's at least fifty chances made. the average number of shots taken by each team in a hockey game (and this is a total guess) is probably around 40, and a team is lucky to capitalize on maybe 5 of them. you have some good ideas concerning the other penalties, but i think that a player should be awarded a penalty shot only when they had a chance to score and was interfered with. also, later in the post, you talked about how boring the nba game you attended was, that play was stopped too often. wouldn't your penalty shot rule take up more time during a hockey game? matt att uva 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52642">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52642" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 messier is a joke this year - bad back not withstanding. his play is the reason the rangers will be on the golf course in a couple of weeks. gartner is my choice - the guy works his butt off every game. kovalev - no surprise. he's played adequately but as bad defensively kovalev is too talented a player to play for roger nielson...roger needs players who can't think for themselves and can only skate in straight lines up and down the ice. dudley and nielson are the only two coaches bad enough in the league to take talents like mogilny and kovalev and not know how to turn them into bure and selanne. as was predicted in preseason. perhaps he'll pull an alex mogilny in a couple of years and surprise us then. zubov wasn't expected to make it out of the minors this season and owing to the number of injuries, has proved to be a very pleasant surprise. get muckler as coach, and kovalev will look like mogilny. the trouble with the rangers is that neil smith went out and got players like messier, kovalev, and graves who have been schooled in taking the game to their opponent and attacking, while hiring coaches who are interested in "rope-a-dope" strategies. if you want the roger nielsons of the world to be your coach you don't go out and get a mark messier, who is an old dog who can't learn new tricks from a known loser, and you don't waste your draft picks on players like kovalev. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52645">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52645" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 no no no! since all the penalties fall into three classes, there should only be three penalties: 1. foul (any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick). if you get 5 you are out for the game. 2. unsportsmanlike contact. (an intentional foul). this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing, fighting and boarding. if you get two you are thrown out of the game, and fined. 3. technical foul. bad mouthing the ref, by player or coach. penalty shot is awarded. two and you are thrown out of the game. besides the penalty shot for one technical, if the team gets 5 penalties in a period, the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one, until the end of the period. the victim gets two shots if he/she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured. these new rule changes are great! however, i think that your rules are much too complicated. how will the normal average fan be able to count how many fouls a player has? and then we would even have to remember the names of the players, in order to determine who drew the foul! and, of course, there will have to be new "sub-positions", like the power center who just sits in the slot until the (blue, of course) puck comes near him, and the "shooting defenseman" and the "point defenseman". finally, we'll be able to keep stats on the best and the worst penalty-shot takers. since almost everyone on the ice will be getting fouled, we'll be able to see ulf samuellson (sp?) and tie domi miss penalty shots like crazy. keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "next time you go over my head, i'll have yours on a platter." -- cmdr. benjamin sisko, 1993 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52648">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52648" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 heard last night that paul kuryia will be playing for the canadian world hockey team this year. he was on a local radio station when a friend of the familty called to congratulate him on the invitation. meekly paul told the host that he didn't think they wanted it out yet. this morning i heard that he is destined to play on a line with lindros and recci{unsure of this one}. if he plays well in this arena, he could go #1 or 2 in the draft. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52650">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52650" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 after seeing hrivnak and tabarraci play, who would you prefer to have? and how about tyler larter? what ever happened to him?? you know what my answer will be: hrivnak! the choice is obvious. ok, but have you seen tabaracci play yet? in his two starts and his relief effort for beaupre, he has looked mighty sharp - don't forget the shutout. i think he's let in just four goals over eight periods of play. i like hrivnak, but we might actually have to give some credit to david poile for a change after this trade. hopefully if tabaracci starts against the isles tonight, i haven't jinxed him. frank salvatore fmsalvat@eos.ncsu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52651">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52651" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps, biggest surprises, and biggest disappointments this year. team biggest biggest team: mvp: surprise: disappointment: hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau my votes (fwiw): team mvp: pat verbeek. he fans on 25% of goal mouth feeds, but he still has 36 goals after a terrible start and has been an examplary (sp?) team captain throughout a tough couple of seasons. honorable mention: nick kypreos and mark janssens. probably more appropriate in the unsung heroes category than mvp, but kypreos (17 goals, 320+ pim) has been the hardest working player on the team and janssens is underrated as a defensive center and checker. i guess i place a greater emphasis on hard work than skill when determining value. biggest surprise: geoff sanderson. he had 13 goals and 31 points last season as a center, then moved to left wing and has so far put up 45 goals and 80+ points. he now has a new whaler record 21 power play goals, most all coming from the right wing faceoff circle, his garden spot. honorable mention: andrew cassels and terry yake. the kiddie quartet of sanderson, poulin, nylander, and petrovicky have been attracting the most attention, but cassels is just 23 and will score close to 90 points this season. he has quite nicely assumed the role of number one center on the team and works very well with sanderson. yake bounced around the minors for a number of seasons but is still 24 and will put up about 20 goals and 50 points this season. yake, like sanderson, started performing better offensively once he was converted from center to wing, although lefty sanderson went to the left wing and righty yake went to the right side. biggest disappointment: hands down, john cullen. cullen had a disasterous 77 point season last year, his first full season after the trade. cullen started the season off of summer back surgery, and fell flat on his face (appropriate, since he spent all of his whaler career flat on his ass, and whining about it). cullen scored just 9 point on 19 games, was a clubhouse malcontent, commanded the powerplay to a 9% success percentage (>21% with sanderson), and sulked his way out of town. worst of all, his 4 year, $4m contract had three years left to run, so no one would give up any more than the 2nd round draft pick the maple leafs offered to hartford. honorable mention: steve konroyd, also subpar after signing a 3 year, $2.1m contract; eric weinrich, who showed flashes of competence, but overall has played poorly; jim mckenzie, who was a much better hockey player two seasons ago than he is now; and frank pietrangelo, who only seemed to play well when sean burke was out for an extended period and he got to make a number of starts in a row. -sg (a real live hartford whalers season ticket holder) -steveg@cadkey.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52653">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52653" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the r.s.h faq sheet never fails to crash my newsreader. the only way i can avoid crashing (and restarting the machine) is to look at the headers and avoid reading the faq. does anyone else have problems reading the faq? tim irvin the season is near a merciful end... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52658">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52658" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 anyways, crawl back into the hole you crawled out of...the nba doesn't care where they get basketball players from, major league baseball doesn't give a damn where they get baseball players from (except cuba, that is). mlb is perfectly willing to take players from cuba. they just have to defect first. sort of like the situation used to be with russian/czech/etc hockey players, until the political situation in those countries changed. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52660">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52660" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |>>you know, you're absolutely right. i think we should round up all those |>>players of european descent and ship 'em back to where they came from. let's |>>see, with whom should we start? i dunno, lemieux? hmmm...sounds like he |>>has *french* blood in him!!! hey! france is part of europe! send that |>>euro-blooded boy back!!! |>don't you americans study history...the french settled in north america |>as early or before the british...lemieux can probably trace back his |>north american heritage back a lot further than most of us. |>gerald uh, gerald, i think he was joking... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52662">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52662" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 : of course, penalties will have to be changed: : roughing: chauvanistic males being aggressive : slashing: chauvanistic males venting frustration : fighting: proof that males cannot cope with their feelings no no no! since all the penalties fall into three classes, there should only be three penalties: 1. foul (any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick). if you get 5 you are out for the game. 2. unsportsmanlike contact. (an intentional foul). this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing, fighting and boarding. if you get two you are thrown out of the game, and fined. 3. technical foul. bad mouthing the ref, by player or coach. penalty shot is awarded. two and you are thrown out of the game. besides the penalty shot for one technical, if the team gets 5 penalties in a period, the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one, until the end of the period. the victim gets two shots if he/she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured. this works well for several reasons. first, penalty shots are the most exciting thing in hockey, right? so, it follows that the more the better. next, when the player is setting up for a penalty shot, the network can take a commercial. finally, with only three penalties, the network announcers (don meredith, dick vitale, john madden, pat summerall, and marv levy, among others) will be able to tell the viewers what happened before the pa announcer says it. oh, one other rule. when a goal is scored (10-20 times a period), the play cannot resume until the pa announcer announces it. this way, the network can sneak in a few more commercials. then, once the pa announcer has told them who scored, the tv announcer can tell you the viewer, and even have a chance of pronouncing his name right. seriously, though, i actually went to see a nba basketball game last week, for the first time in my life. i was amazed how boring it was. the play is so slow they actually had fans come out for things like free-throw shooting contests during the period!. of course the 'laker girls' get to do their routines at least 6-8 times during the game, and not just between periods either. there is a whistle every 30 seconds on average, maybe less. the game is 48 minutes, with 2 minutes between quarters 1-2 and 3-4 and a 10 minute halftime, and it still takes over 2 hours. the reason for this has to be tv. there is plenty of room to throw in commercials, and have the announcer jabber while nothing else is happening. on tv, basketball is fairly entertaining, imho. but, it is better to watch it on tv than to be there. if this is the road the nhl is following, then it truly is a sad day. enough for now. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52665">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52665" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i saw a previous request for the rules and instructions for the usenet playoff pool but i haven't seen any responce. does anybody have this info? if so post away or you could mail it to me. thanks in advance. phil barone \ internet: pbarone@x102a.ess.harris.com harris corporation gisd \ cape canaveral a.f.s. \ 407-853-8169 \ 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52666">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52666" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 for those of you who can only decide which team is best after you have seen the standings: tor 42 25 11 95 .609 chi 42 25 11 95 .609 det 44 28 9 97 .599 van 41 28 9 91 .583 no team in the campbell conference has a better record than toronto. that's true, but according to your stats, chicago has just as good a record as toronto. it's interesting that you should list toronto ahead of chicago. laurie marshall wayne state university detroit, michigan go wings!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey52668">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey52668" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 just testing !!! no flames please ! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53468">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53468" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 archive-name: hockey-faq rec.sport.hockey answers to frequently asked questions and other news: contents: 0. new info. 1. nhl 2. nhl minor leagues 3. college hockey (north america) 4. other leagues (e.g. europe, canada cup tournament) 5. e-mail files 6. usenet hockey pool 7. up-coming dates 8. answers to some frequently asked questions 9. miscellaneous send comments, suggestions and criticisms regarding this faq list via e- mail to hamlet@u.washington.edu. 0. new info. this section will describe additions since the last post so that you can decide if there is anything worth reading. paragraphs containing new information will be preceded by two asterisks (**). 1.: new anaheim contact, winnipeg to keep affiliate in moncton. 2.: new milwaukee contact, ihl broadcaster of the year named, rheaume to start against cyclones, san diego sets record. 3.: ticket info included for 1994 ncaa division i championships. 4.: world championship pool b results listed, sweden hockey games final standings listed, swedish elite league final standings listed, new olypmic hockey mailing list. 5.: new montreal mailing list address. 6.: 7.: 8.: 9.: 1. nhl - national hockey league for detailed information concerning a team (particularly where to get tickets and merchandise, where to watch games in town....), send e-mail to the net contact(s) for the team. first # of last team div season cups cup net contacts anaheim mighty ducks - 93-94 - - kris myers kris@fs2.assist.uci.edu boston bruins a 24-25 5 71-72 buffalo sabres a 70-71 0 - jeff horvath jhorvath@macc.wisc.edu calgary flames s 80-81* 1 88-89 caldwell8102@mtroyal.ab.ca chicago blackhawks n 26-27 3 60-61 john scholvin scholvin@casbah.acns.nwu.edu detroit red wings n 33-34* 7 54-55 sglenn@cmsa.gmr.com edmonton oilers s 79-80* 5 89-90 andrew scott andrew@idacom.hp.com hartford whalers a 79-80* 0 - matthew olsen dmolsen@athena.mit.edu los angeles kings s 67-68 0 - stan willis willis@empire.dnet.hac.com minnesota north stars n 67-68* 0 - mitch mcgowan hamlet@u.washington.edu montreal canadiens a 17-18 22 85-86 new jersey devils p 82-83* 0 - new york islanders p 72-73 4 82-83 mark anania ananim@rpi.edu new york rangers p 26-27 3 39-40 paul romano romano@monolith.bellcore.com ottawa senators a 92-93 0 - scott simpson simpson@bnr.ca philadelphia flyers p 67-68 2 74-75 pete clark seth@hos1cad.att.com pittsburgh penguins p 67-68 2 91-92 lori iannamico lli+@cs.cmu.edu thomas sullivan tms@cs.cmu.edu quebec nordiques a 79-80* 0 - st. louis blues n 67-68 0 - joseph achkar jca2@cec1.wustl.edu san jose sharks s 91-92 0 - nelson lu claudius@leland.stanford.edu south florida - 93-94 - - tampa bay lightning n 92-93 0 - tom wilson wilson@eola.cs.ucf.edu toronto maple leafs n 26-27* 11 66-67 darryl gamble darryl@cs.yorku.ca vancouver canucks s 70-71 0 - alan chim chim@sfu.ca washington capitals p 74-75 0 - david lu david@eng.umd.edu winnipeg jets s 79-80* 0 - umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca a=adams n=norris p=patrick s=smythe *calgary: formerly atlanta flames (72/73-79/80) detroit: formerly detroit cougars (26/27-29/30) -> detroit falcons (30/31-32/33) edmonton: formerly alberta oilers (wha) (72/73) -> edmonton oilers (wha) (72/73-78/79) hartford: formerly new england whalers (wha) (72/73-78/79) minnesota: cleveland barons were merged with minnesota for the 1978/79 new jersey: formerly kansas city scouts (74/75-75/76) -> colorado rockies (76/77-81/82) quebec: formerly quebec nordiques (wha) (72/73-78/79) toronto: formerly toronto arenas (17/18-18/19) -> toronto st. patricks (19/20-25/26) winnipeg: formerly winnipeg jets (wha) (72/73-78/79) teams with mailing lists, see section 5 for addresses: boston, buffalo, los angeles, montreal, philadelphia, pittsburgh, st. louis, san jose, tampa bay, vancouver, washington. 1992-1993 schedule for the nhl sun mon tue wed thu fri sat ! ! ! ! ! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! ! ! ! ! !min @ cal!mon @ was!buf @ bos! ! ! ! ! !det @ chi!nyi @ nyr!cal @ sj ! ! ! ! ! !har @ pit! !chi @ stl! ! ! ! ! !que @ ott! !van @ det! ! ! ! ! !tor @ phi! !win @ edm! ! ! ! ! !win @ sj ! !ott @ har! ! ! ! ! !van @ tb ! !min @ la ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !mon @ nyi! ! ! ! ! ! ! !nj @ tor! ! ! ! ! ! ! !tb @ phi! ! ! ! ! ! ! !pit @ que! ! 4 ! 5 ! 6 ! 7 ! 8 ! 9 !10 ! !bos @ buf!har @ nyr!bos @ que!edm @ van!que @ bos!van @ cal!bos @ mon! !cal @ sj ! !buf @ min!har @ ott!chi @ nyi!pit @ nyr!buf @ det! !stl @ chi! !cal @ la !mon @ pit!det @ tb ! !chi @ tb ! !pit @ nj ! !edm @ sj !nyr @ nj !sj @ la ! !har @ que! !nyr @ was! !nyi @ was! !was @ phi! !la @ sj ! !van @ ott! !phi @ win! !tor @ win! !stl @ min! ! ! !stl @ tb ! ! ! !nj @ was! ! ! ! ! ! ! !ott @ nyi! ! ! ! ! ! ! !nyr @ pit! ! ! ! ! ! ! !phi @ tor! !11 !12 !13 !14 !15 !16 !17 ! !ott @ bos!was @ mon!mon @ buf!bos @ ott!phi @ buf! ! ! !que @ buf!nyr @ phi!cal @ edm!nyi @ har!sj @ cal! ! ! !cal @ van! !chi @ min!pit @ nj !tor @ chi! ! ! !tb @ chi! !la @ van!was @ nyr!min @ det! ! ! !win @ edm! !ott @ que! !edm @ win! ! ! !tor @ har! !stl @ tor! !har @ nyi! ! ! !min @ stl! !tb @ win! !van @ la ! ! ! !nyi @ nj ! ! ! !nj @ pit! ! ! ! ! ! ! !tb @ stl! ! ! the season will begin on 10/6 and end on 4/15. playoffs will begin on 4/18 and end on or before 6/14. 24 nhl regular season games will be played in non-nhl cities during 92-93 season. cities: milwaukee (2), sacramento (2), cleveland (2), indianapolis, phoenix, miami, oklahoma city, dallas, atlanta, cincinnati, providence, peoria, hamilton (4), saskatoon (4), here is a chart showing the number of games between the teams (84 games each): n n n p p w b b h m o q c d m s t t c e l s v w j y y h i a o u a o t u h e i t b o a d a j a i i r i t s s f r n t e i t n l r l m n n nj : - 7 7 7 9 7 4 4 4 3 4 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 nyi: 7 - 7 9 7 7 4 3 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 nyr: 7 7 - 7 7 9 3 4 3 4 3 4 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 phi: 7 9 7 - 7 7 4 3 3 4 3 4 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 pit: 9 7 7 7 - 7 5 4 3 3 4 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 was: 7 7 9 7 7 - 3 4 4 3 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 bos: 4 4 3 4 5 3 - 7 7 9 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 buf: 4 3 4 3 4 4 7 - 9 7 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 har: 4 4 3 3 3 4 7 9 - 7 7 7 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 mon: 3 4 4 4 3 3 9 7 7 - 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 ott: 4 3 3 3 4 4 7 7 7 7 - 9 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 3 que: 4 3 4 4 3 3 7 7 7 7 9 - 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 chi: 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 - 9 7 7 7 7 3 4 5 3 4 3 det: 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 - 7 7 7 7 4 3 4 4 3 3 min: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 7 - 9 7 7 4 4 3 3 5 4 stl: 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 7 7 9 - 7 7 4 3 3 3 4 4 tb : 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 7 7 7 7 - 9 3 4 3 4 3 4 tor: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 7 7 7 7 9 - 4 3 4 4 3 3 cal: 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 4 4 3 4 - 7 7 9 7 7 edm: 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 3 4 3 4 3 7 - 7 7 7 9 la : 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 5 4 3 3 3 4 7 7 - 7 9 7 sj : 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 4 3 3 4 4 9 7 7 - 7 7 van: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 4 3 5 4 3 3 7 7 9 7 - 7 win: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 3 3 4 4 4 3 7 9 7 7 7 - valerie hammerl <hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu> has posted this year's version of nhl.c, a schedule program for nhl games. for example, users can find out the games played on a certain date or find out the next ten games played by team x. a copy can be obtained by e-mailing <hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu> following is the neutral site schedule: tue 10/13: calgary vs. minnesota @ saskatoon tue 10/20: ottawa vs. toronto @ hamilton tue 11/03: chicago vs. washington @ indianapolis tue 11/17: toronto vs. quebec @ hamilton wed 11/18: buffalo vs. new jersey @ hamilton tue 12/01: los angeles vs. chicago @ milwaukee tue 12/08: montreal vs. los angeles @ phoenix wed 12/09: tampa bay vs. new york rangers @ miami sun 12/13: edmonton vs. new york islanders @ oklahoma city tue 12/15: new york islanders vs. st. louis @ dallas mon 01/04: san jose vs. montreal @ sacramento mon 01/18: hartford vs. winnipeg @ saskatoon mon 02/08: boston vs. pittsburgh @ atlanta mon 02/08: st. louis vs. hartford @ peoria tue 02/16: philadelphia vs. calgary @ cincinnati sat 02/20: quebec vs. tampa bay @ halifax mon 02/22: new york rangers vs. san jose @ sacramento mon 02/22: detroit vs. philadelphia @ cleveland tue 02/23: winnipeg vs. ottawa @ saskatoon mon 03/01: vancouver vs. buffalo @ hamilton thu 03/11: minnesota vs. vancouver @ saskatoon tue 03/16: washington vs. detroit @ milwaukee tue 03/16: new jersey vs. boston @ providence * sun 03/21: pittsburgh vs. edmonton @ cleveland * location subject to change nhl playoff schedule: wales conference division semifinals: april 18, 20, 22, 24, 26*, 28*, 30* campbell conference division semifinals: april 19, 21, 23, 25, 27*, 29*, may 1* wales conference division finals: may 2, 4, 6, 8, 10*, 12*, 14* campbell conference division finals: may 3, 5, 7, 9, 11*, 13*, 15* wales conference final: may 16, 18, 20, 22, 24*, 26*, 28* campbell conference final: may 17, 19, 21, 23, 25*, 27*, 29* stanley cup final: june 1, 3, 5, 7, 9*, 11*, 14* * - if neccessary - news & scores spike (bryan.k.strouse) <bks@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> posts weekday news and box scores (sunday through thursday). john p. curcio <jpc@philabs.philips.com> posts weekend news and box scores. both maintain e-mail lists for faster delivery. net contacts post team news as they see/hear/read it. - notable team news (transactions and announcements) note that this information is culled from press releases and posts. it is updated each month and only information currently under discussion or of continuing importance or interest will be listed for more than two boston bruins boston legislators and the developers proposing a new boston garden finally agreed to a deal that puts the 19,000-seat, $160 million project back on track to be finished in september 1995. right wing daniel marois will be sidelined indefinitely following surgery to repair a herniated disc in his back. sent defenseman glen murray to providence of the american hockey league. buffalo sabres 1-800-333-puck (1-800-333-7825) acquired left winger bob errey from pittsburgh for defenseman mike veteran buffalo sabres broadcaster ted darling will be inducted into the club's hall of fame sunday, april 11. darling, who joined the expansion sabres in 1970, was the team's play-by-play announcer on both television and radio until illness forced him out of the booth during last season. recalled forwards viktor gordiouk and doug macdonald from rochester of american hockey league. calgary flames acquired veteran right wing greg paslawski from philadelphia for future recalled center todd harkins and left winger tomas forslund from salt lake city of international hockey league. chicago blackhawks the $175 million, privately financed united center, scheduled to open in august 1994, will be home to the nba's chicago bulls and nhl's chicago blackhawks. the stadium is owned by entities controlled by the two teams. the owners apparently still have not made a decision on whether the old chicago stadium will be razed for parking space once the new facility, located directly across the street, opens. suspended defenseman craig muni indefinitely for failing to report following a trade with edmonton. detroit red wings acquired defenseman steve konroyd from hartford for a sixth-round draft annnounced the signing of right wing joe frederick, their 13th pick in the 1989 national hockey league entry draft. two contrite hockey fans have returned the stolen michigan sports hall of fame plaque honoring detroit red wing great gordie howe. the bronze plaque was stolen more than four years ago from cobo hall in detroit, site of the michigan hall of fame. edmonton oilers sent forward esa tikkanen to the new york rangers for center doug traded defenseman craig muni to chicago for forward mike hudson. nhl commissioner gary bettman said the edmonton oilers' lease with northlands coliseum must be improved if the team is to survive in the city. edmonton northlands is a non-profit agency set up by the city to administer exhibition facilities including the coliseum. oilers owner peter pocklington calls his lease with northlands horrendous and has threatened to move the team if he doesn't get a better deal. he makes no money from parking, concessions or building advertising. the 17,313-seat coliseum also has few of the lucrative private boxes that produce significant revenues for other owners. announced center kevin todd will not need surgery but will miss the remainder of the season with a separated shoulder. hartford whalers sent defenseman steve konroyd to detroit for a sixth-round draft pick. acquired left winger robert kron and a third-round draft pick from vancouver for left winger murray craven and a fifth-round draft pick. the state of connecticut will begin negotiations to buy the civic center from the city in an effort to keep the financially struggling hartford whalers franchise in the city. los angeles kings sent center john mcintyre to the new york rangers for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa's fifth-round 1993 draft pick. minnesota north stars 1-800-800-0435 if calling from the u.s. 1-800-800-0458 if calling from canada the dallas city council has approved an agreement with the minnesota north stars that will bring the nhl club to reunion arena next season. defenseman mark tinordi, captain of the north stars, will be sidelined the rest of the season, including any postseason games the north stars might play, because of a broken collarbone. acquired defenseman mark osiecki from winnipeg for ninth- and 10th-round draft picks in 1993. added defenseman travis richards from the university of minnesota. a former employee filed a sexual harassment suit against minnesota north star owner norman green. karen (kari) dziedzic, green's former executive assistant, claims green often instructed her to wear cosmetics, described her outfits as "very hot" and "very sexy," once slapped her hand as she was about to eat and humiliated her by grabbing her hand and rubbing it through a client's hair. the minnesota north stars, who will move to dallas after this season, announced that nearly 11,000 season ticket reservations have been made for their new home at reunion arena, which has a capacity of 16,800. the met center commission has told the minnesota north stars that it wants the club out - with its keys returned - at midnight after the last home game. the club is moving to dallas for next season. the club must pay unpaid interest of $4,492.80 on the team's late rent payment for 1992, which was made earlier this month, and has been instructed not to take property such as the scoreboard and zamboni ice-surfacing machine. derian hatcher's game-misconduct penalty was rescinded by the nhl, allowing the minnesota defenseman to play in the north stars' last two regular-season games. hatcher was given the penalty during a fight at the end of a loss at st. louis on sunday, april 11. but the league didn't rescind the game-misconduct penalty shane churla received. the stars recalled center cal mcgowan from their top minor league club in kalamazoo, mich., to replace churla. montreal canadiens acquired defenseman rob ramage from tampa bay for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations. new jersey devils bernie nicholls publicly apologized for his criticism of referee denis morel after the devils' 5-2 loss to the buffalo sabres. nicholls was ejected by morel for being the third man in on a fight late in the second period of that game and afterward nicholls called morel "a homer" and "an embarrassment to the referee's association." new york islanders traded right wing daniel marois to boston for a conditional draft new york rangers obtained forward esa tikkanen from edmonton for center doug weight. acquired left winger mike hartman from tampa bay acquired center john mcintyre from los angeles for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa's fifth-round 1993 draft pick. defenseman brian leetch will undergo additional surgery on the right ankle he broke in a non-skating fall and is not expected to play again this season. leetch suffered the broken ankle march 19 following a victory over san jose. the team said he slipped on an icy patch of pavement as he was getting out of a taxi cab in front of his apartment. announced that defenseman james patrick will require surgery on a herniated disc in his back and will not play again this season. returned goaltender corey hirsch to binghamton of the american hockey ottawa senators the ottawa senators received the go-ahead to build the 18,500-seat palladium on the proposed location in nearby kanata, ont. the projected cost is c$150 million. construction will be postponed until the 1995-96 season, one year behind schedule. the ottawa senators lost their 37th consecutive nhl road game to tie the 1974-75 washington capitals for most road losses in a row. assigned left wing martin st. amour to new haven of the american hockey philadelphia flyers the opening date of spectrum ii has been pushed back to fall 1995. formal groundbreaking has been postponed indefinitely. traded veteran right wing greg paslawski to the calgary flames for future considerations. pittsburgh penguins traded left winger bob errey to buffalo for defenseman mike ramsey. reacquired defenseman peter taglianetti from tampa bay lightning for a third-round 1993 draft choice. revolutionary comics of san diego agreed to destroy all available copies of a mario lemieux comic book in a settlement with the pittsburgh penguins over a trademark infringement lawsuit. the penguins sued in february charging that the "sport stars mario lemieux" comic infringed on the team's logo and uniform, which are registered trademarks. quebec nordiques 1-800-463-3333 st. louis blues st. louis blues center ron sutter will miss the rest of the season as a result of separating his right shoulder. san jose sharks the san jose sharks announced that ticket prices will increase by about 30% for the 1993-94 season when they move from the cow palace into a new $155-million arena in san jose. recalled defenseman tom pederson from kansas city of the international hockey league. reached agreement in principle with left wing alexander cherbayev. tampa bay lightning 1-800-881-2639 at least two investor groups are poised to build a sports arena in downtown tampa if the delay-plagued company that holds a lease from the tampa bay lightning bows out. tampa coliseum inc. has a lease with the national hockey league team to develop an entertainment and sports arena next to tampa stadium, but has been unable to raise enough money for the sent left winger mike hartman to the new york rangers for center randy sent defenseman peter taglianetti to pittsburgh for a third-round 1993 draft choice. sent defenseman rob ramage to the montreal canadiens for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations. manon rheaume's first starting appearance in goal for the atlanta knights was impressive enough for her coach to say she has a chance to be a backup goalie for another minor league team next season. rheaume, the first female to play professional hockey, stopped 25 shots and gave up six goals against the cincinnati cyclones on saturday night, april 10. after the game, her coach, gene ubriaco, said rheaume performed well enough to compete for the no. 2 goalie spot with the louisville icehawks of the east coast hockey league next season. the knights and the icehawks are minor league clubs of the tampa bay lightning. as their first season comes to a close, there are rumors swirling that the tampa bay lightning just might become the atlanta lightning. or the minnesota lightning. but they are just rumors, according to lightning general manager phil esposito. espn reported on sunday, april 11, that the lightning, who have been playing in 10,400-seat expo hall, are exploring opportunities to move to either atlanta or minneapolis. but esposito said there was no truth to the report. "we were disappointed with espn's irresponsible comment," esposito said. "there is just no substance to the rumor." rumors have been swirling for the past two years regarding a move by tampa bay, which is presently discussing plans to build a new arena. toronto maple leafs defenseman matt martin, who helped maine win the 1993 ncaa hockey championship, gave up his final year of eligibility and signed a contract with the toronto maple leafs. vancouver canucks the vancouver canucks have cleared the last hurdle in their effort to build a new stadium. vancouver council has given the green light for the 100 million dollar complex. it will seat 20 thousand people and will have an adjoining office tower. it will be built between the viaducts near b.c. place in vancouver. site preparation will begin this summer, with a completion date of fall 1995. traded left winger robert kron and a third-round draft pick to hartford for left winger murray craven and a fifth-round draft pick. obtained defenseman dan ratushny from winnipeg for a ninth-round draft signed right wing brian loney to a multi-year contract and assigned him to hamilton of american hockey league (ahl). washington capitals (301) 808-caps traded goaltender jim hrivnak and future considerations to winnipeg for goaltender rick tabaracci. winnipeg jets winnipeg jets have been allowed economic assistance in order to keep them in the smythe division as a result of expansion. sent defenseman mark osiecki to minnesota for ninth- and 10th-round draft picks in 1993. sent goaltender rick tabaracci to washington for jim hrivnak and future sent defenseman dan ratushny to vancouver for a ninth-round draft pick. winnipeg's teemu selanne broke the nhl's rookie points record. the jets rookie tied the record of 109 points, set by peter stastny with quebec (1980-81), with a goal, his 66th of the season, and moved ahead on an assist in a 5-4 loss to toronto. the fort wayne komets said they have been told by winnipeg that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league. there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season. - expansion news: the national hockey league announced that the expansion anaheim and south florida franchises will join the league for the 1993- 1994 season. disney and national hockey league officials announced monday, march 1, that the mighty ducks of anaheim, disney's expansion team, will take to the ice next fall. michael eisner, chairman and chief executive officer of the walt disney co., said the mighty ducks will play at the pond, the new anaheim sports arena, near disney's flagship theme park. the arena is under construction and will be completed in june. the pond seats 17,350. the team still must meet the league's requirement that it sell at least 10,000 season tickets for the final grant of nhl membership. anaheim named jack ferreira general manager and pierre gauthier assistant general manager. veteran nhl scout al godfrey has been hired as the midwest regional scout for the anaheim mighty ducks. philadelphia flyers' senior vice president bobby clarke was named monday, march 1, to the post of general manager for miami's nhl expansion team. franchise owner h. wayne huizenga made the announcement at the miami arena, three months after being awarded a franchise. huizenga said he plans to have a team on the ice in time for the beginning of the nhl season in october. - realignment: eastern conference atlantic division washington capitals, new jersey devils, new york islanders, new york rangers, philadelphia flyers, south florida, tampa bay lightning northeast division boston bruins, buffalo sabres, hartford whalers, montreal canadiens, ottawa senators, pittsburgh penguins, quebec nordiques western conference central division chicago blackhawks, dallas stars, detroit red wings, st. louis blues, toronto maple leafs, winnipeg jets pacific division anaheim mighty ducks, calgary flames, edmonton oilers, los angeles kings, san jose sharks, vancouver canucks schedule: eastern conference teams will play five games against each of six divisional opponents (30); four games against each of the seven teams in the conference's other division (28) and two games against each of the 12 western conference members (24). western conference teams will play six games against each of five divisional opponents (30); four games against each of the six teams in the conference's other division (24) and two games against each of the 14 eastern conference clubs (28). playoffs: the system will be conference-based, with the no. 1 team meeting the no. 8 team in the first round, no. 2 vs. no. 7, no. 3 vs. no. 6 and no. 4 vs. no. 5. matchups will be based on overall points with the four division champions being placed in the first- or second-place seeds in each conference and being assured of home-ice in the first two playoff rounds. all series will be best of seven (2-2-1-1-1 rotation) except matchups between central and pacific teams. those series will rotate 2-3- 2 to reduce travel. in those cases, the team with the most regular-season points will choose whether to start the series at home or away. - draft news: under terms of the new expansion draft, which will be held in june, each of the 24 existing clubs will be allowed to protect one goaltender, five defensemen and nine forwards. the most recent expansion drafts allowed teams to protect two goalies and did not make a distinction between forwards and defensemen. first-year pros only will be exempt from the draft, which is down from the two-year exemption teams had last season. san jose, tampa bay and ottawa still will be allowed to exempt second-year pros. each of the 24 teams will lose two players, with a maximum loss of one goaltender and a maximum loss of one defenseman. the one exception is that a team which loses a goaltender can then no longer lose a defenseman. at the end of the first phase of the draft, the two new franchises will have three goaltenders, eight defensemen and 13 forwards for a total of 24 players. a second phase then will be conducted where san jose, tampa bay and ottawa will select two players each from the rosters of the two new teams. ottawa, tampa bay and san jose will be guaranteed priority drafting selection in the 1993 draft as long as they have the three worst records. anaheim and miami will choose no lower than fourth and fifth. the expansion franchises will move up in the draft should either san jose, tampa bay or ottawa not finish in the bottom three positions. the two new teams will pick first and second in the 1994 entry draft, regardless of their finish in 1993-94. should either of the two new teams not play next season they would have priority drafting position in the owners announced the 1994 draft will be in hartford and the 1995 draft in winnipeg. the 1994 draft was scheduled for boston, but a delay in the construction of a new arena required the draft be moved. - league news: disputes: the nhl owners and players have resolved differences over salary arbitration procedures, clearing the way for about 40 hearings. nhlpa executive director bob goodenow didn't disclose how the issues were resolved, but the prior sticking point had been the manner in which statistics were used in arbitration hearings. olympics: the nhl announced february 26, 1993, it will not make professional players available to compete in the 1994 winter olympics. league leadership: los angeles kings owner bruce mcnall succeeded blackhawks owner bill wirtz as chairman of the nhl's powerful board of governors. appointed to join mcnall on the executive committee were ron corey of the montreal canadiens, mike ilitch of the detroit red wings, peter pocklington of the edmonton oilers and ed snider of the philadelphia flyers. gary bettman, vice president and general counsel of the national basketball association, was named commissioner of the national hockey league, friday, december 11, 1992. miscellaneous: henri richard, bernie parent and billy smith have been named special ambassadors for the stanley cup centennial, a season-long celebration of the nhl championship trophy. the trio will appear at league-wide function such as the all-star game and stanley cup playoffs. the national hockey league named john n. turner, former prime minister of canada, to serve on board of directors of hockey hall of fame and museum and nominated scotty morrison, david m. taylor, larry bertuzzi, robert g. bundy, walter bush, murray costello, jim gregory, leslie kaplan, lawrence g. meyer and alan tonks to serve on board, which takes office march 30. nhl president gil stein was one of four individuals elected to the hockey hall of fame builder's category. the others were buffalo sabres' chairman of the board and president seymour knox iii, vancouver canucks' chairman frank griffiths and veteran canadian hockey executive fred page. former nhl linesman john d'amico was selected in the hall of fame's referee-linesman category. - nhl tv games are carried on tsn and cbc in canada, on espn in the u.s. check your local listings. the national hockey league has struck a conditional five-year deal with espn to televise professional hockey through the 1996-97 season. the series of agreements grants espn exclusive national coverage of the nhl starting with the 1992-93 season, and the cable network has an option to extend the term of that domestic agreement for four more years. the deal also grants espn exclusive international television distribution, excluding canada, for the next five years. the league's new tv contract calls for espn to televise up to 25 regular-season games to its domestic audience this coming season and 37 playoff games, including the entire stanley cup final. the majority of espn's regular-season games will be televised on friday nights. nhl commissioner gary bettman announced wednesday, march 3, that abc sports will televise five stanley cup playoff games starting next month. abc will carry the playoff games on its network through an arrangement with espn, the u.s. rightsholder for nhl games. espn will provide the production of the games. abc owns espn. april 18 - wales conference game #1 quarterfinals april 25 - campbell conference game #4 quarterfinals may 2 - wales conference game #1 semifinals may 9 - campbell conference game #4 semifinals may 16 - wales conference game #1 finals - award winners, all-star teams, hall of fame inductees, and draft picks 91-92 award winners: hart trophy (mvp): mark messier (nyr) vezina trophy (best goalie): patrick roy (mon) norris trophy (best defenseman): brian leetch (nyr) calder trophy (best rookie): pavel bure (van) selke trophy (best defensive forward): guy carbonneau (mon) lady byng trophy (sportsmanship): wayne gretzky (la) jack adams award (best coach): pat quinn (van) bill masterton memorial trophy (perseverance): mark fitzpatrick (nyi) king clancy trophy (contribution to community): ray bourque (bos) jennings trophy (lowest team gaa): patrick roy (mon) art ross trophy (most scoring points): mario lemieux (pit) hall of famer players frank boucher and red dutton and executives bruce mcnall and gil stein thursday were named the 1993 winners of the lester patrick award for ``outstanding service to hockey in the united states''. the award is selected each year by a committee representing a wide cross-section of the hockey community. 91-92 1st all-star team: patrick roy (g, mon), ray bourque (d, bos), brian leetch (d, nyr), mark messier (c, nyr), brett hull (rw, stl), kevin stevens (lw, pit) 92-93 all-star game starters (as voted by fans): wales conference: mario lemieux (c, pittsburgh), jaromir jagr (w, pittsburgh), kevin stevens (w, pittsburgh), ray bourque (d, boston), brian leetch (d, rangers), patrick roy, (g, montreal). campbell conference: steve yzerman (c, detroit), brett hull (w, st. louis), pavel bure (w, vancouver), chris chelios (d, chicago), paul coffey (d, los angeles), ed belfour (g, chicago) 91-92 all-rookie team: gilbert dionne (lw, mon), tony amonte (rw, nyr), kevin todd (c, nj), vladimir konstantinov (d, det), nicklas lidstrom (d, det), dominik hasek (g, chi). 1992 hall of fame inductees: marcel dionne, bob gainey, lanny mcdonald, and woody dumart. first round of the 1992 entry draft: # player (pos, team) 1 roman hamrlik (d, tb) 2 alexei yashin (c, ott) 3 mike rathje (d, sj) 4 todd warriner (lw, que) 5 darius kasparaitis (d, nyi) 6 cory stillman (c, cal) 7 ryan sittler (lw, phi) 8 brandon convery (c, tor) 9 robert petrovicky (c, har) 10 andrei nazarov (lw, sj) 11 david cooper (d, buf) 12 sergei krivokrasov (lw, chi) 13 joe hulbig (lw, edm) 14 sergei gonchar (d, was) 15 jason bowen (lw, phi) 16 dmitri kvartalnov (lw, bos) 17 sergei bautin (d, win) 18 jason smith (d, nj) 19 martin straka (c, pit) 20 david wilkie (d, mon) 21 libor polasek (c, van) 22 curtis bowen (lw, det) 23 grant marshall (rw, tor) 24 peter ferraro (c, nyr) - new nhl rules game ejection for instigating a fight. helmets are optional. grabbing an opponent's stick as a defensive move is a penalty. diving to draw a penalty is a penalty. coincidental minors when both teams are full-strength result in 4 vs. 4 high sticking is from the waist up. - new cba - ratified by nhlpa on 4/11/92 term: september 16, 1991 to september 15, 1993. licensing and endorsements: players own exclusive rights to their individual personality, including their likenesses. salary arbitration: new rules negotiated; 8 salary arbitrators to be jointly agreed upon. free agency: compensation scale reduced for players age 30 and under. group iii free agent age reduced to 30 from 31. a player who has completed 10 or more professional seasons (minor or nhl) and who in last year of contract didn't earn more than the average nhl salary, can elect once in his career to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of his salary and awards: players' playoff fund increased to $7.5m in 1991-92 & $9m in 92-93. new minimum salary of $100,000. insurance: $200,000 disability coverage. dental & broad-based medical improvements. 100% increase in life insurance for players; coverage for pension: improved pension contributions of $8000 to $12500 per player per year, depending on the player's number of nhl games. agreement on language to guarantee continuation of security plan negotiated in 1986. regular season: increased from 80 to 84 games in 92-93. for 2 games played at neutral sites, all arrangements and revenues to be shared. rosters: kept at 18 skaters and 2 goaltenders for 92-93. entry draft: reduced to 11 rounds from 12. supplemental draft: one selection for each non-playoff team. joint study group: examine financial state of nhl & issue report to assist in preparing for 1993 negotiations nhl free agency categories (effective until 9/15/93) group i: - players aged 24 and under - player's choice of player equalization or draft pick compensation - for compensation, old club has right to match offer from new club - for equalization, old club has no right to match offer - equalization, which can consist of players, draft picks, and/or cash, must be agreed upon between two clubs or submitted to arbitration group ii: - players aged 25 to 29 - player's choice of player equalization or draft pick compensation - for equalization, old club has right to match offer only if it is at least $351,000 - for compensation, schedule is: one first round pick if player signs for $350,000-$500,000/year two first round picks if player signs for $500,000-$1 million/year extra first round pick for each additional $1m over $1m/year group iii: - players aged 30 and over - old club gets no compensation, but has right to match offer - to receive right to match, old club must make qualifying offer of 15% over player's salary in prior season group iv: - players considered defected free agents group v: - player with 10 years of experience whose salary is below nhl average can choose to be a free agent without compensation once in his career. 2. nhl minor leagues the nhl minor leagues are the international hockey league, the american hockey league and the east coast hockey league. information on the central hockey league and the american hockey association can be found in section 4. contacts: ihl: rob springall <rgs7077@ultb.isc.rit.edu> atlanta knights: scott clarkson <gt3394c@prism.gatech.edu> cincinnati cyclones: joseph combs <jgcombs@uceng.uc.edu> cleveland lumberjacks: rob gasser <csrag@uoft02.utoledo.edu> ft. wayne komets: rob gasser <csrag@uoft02.utoledo.edu> milwaukee admirals: jason hanson <jason@studsys.mscs.mu.edu> salt lake golden eagles: roland behunin <behunin@logdis1.oo.aflc.af.mil> the international hockey league has granted a franchise to a las vegas group headed by henry stickney for the 1993-1994 season. the international hockey league named bob chase. voice of the fort wayne komets, as the league's broadcaster of the year. the ihl also said the annual award, effective next year, will be named in chase's honor. also honored by the ihl were jim loria of the kansas city blades as marketing director of the year, shelly gartner of the phoenix roadrunners as merchandise manager of the year and steve doherty of the kalamazoo wings as public relations director of the year. the atlanta knights of the international hockey league announced thursday, april 8, that manon rheaume will be the starting goaltender in a home game saturday night, april 10, against the cincinnati cyclones. rheaume will become the first female to start in a regular season professional hockey game. fort wayne -- announced winger scott gruhl will retire at the end of the international hockey league season. gruhl will join the muskegon fury of the colonial league. the fort wayne komets said they have been told by winnipeg that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league. there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season. the san diego gulls of the international hockey league set a record with their 61st victory, 5-1, over the salt lake golden eagles. the gulls (61- 11-8) became the first team in professional hockey to win that many games in a season. the 1976-77 montreal canadiens won 60 games. ihl's 1992 turner cup: the kansas city blades defeated muskegon lumberjacks 4 games to 0. contacts: ahl: rob springall <rgs7077@ultb.isc.rit.edu> bri farenell <farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> mark anania <ananim@rpi.edu> see section 5 for newsletter information. atlantic division: cape breton, fredericton, halifax, moncton, st. john's northern division: adirondack, capital district, providence, new haven, southern division: baltimore, binghamton, hershey, rochester, utica, the new haven senators have been sold by peter shipman to the ottawa senators nhl organization. they are the only canadian nhl team with an american ahl affiliate, and have made it clear they intend to move the team to somewhere in the canadian atlantic provinces. this sale and move has yet to be approved by the ahl head office, but is expected to pass easily at the general meeting in may. the baltimore skipjacks, the washington capitals' american hockey league affliate, will skate next season as the portland pirates. the calgary flames will base their farm team in the ahl in st. john, new brunswick next season. the team will be called the st. john blue flames. the fort wayne komets of the ihl said they have been told by winnipeg of the nhl that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league. there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season. ahl's 1992 calder cup: the adirondack red wings beat the st. john's maple leafs 4 games to 3. the home-ice curse held true as all games in the final were won by the visiting team. john anderson (new haven) is 1992 winner of les cunningham plaque as ahl contacts: echl, toledo storm: rob gasser <csrag@uoft02.utoledo.edu> the toledo storm hockey team is asking seagate convention center to consider becoming its host site beginning with the 1994-95 season. the storm, which has played its last two seasons in the toledo sports arena, said it asked for 55 dates in the downtown facility. the storm also has been talking with backers of a proposed ice complex in suburban sylvania to become a primary tenant. echl's 1992 riley cup: hampton roads beat louisville 4 games to 0. see section 5 for newsletter information. minor league affiliates for nhl teams: bos: providence bruins (ahl), johnstown chiefs (echl) buf: rochester americans (ahl), erie panthers (echl) cal: salt lake golden eagles (ihl), roanoke valley rebels (echl) chi: indianapolis ice (ihl), columbus chill (echl), st. thomas (col. hl) det: adirondack red wings (ahl), toledo storm (echl) edm: cape breton oilers (ahl), winston-salem thunderbirds (echl) har: springfield indians (ahl), louisville icehawks (echl) la : phoenix roadrunners (ihl), raleigh icecaps (echl) min: kalamazoo wings (ihl), dayton bombers (echl) mon: fredericton canadiens (ahl), winston-salem thunderbirds (echl), flint (col. hl) nj : utica devils (ahl), birmingham bulls (echl) nyi: capital district islanders (ahl), richmond renegades (echl) nyr: binghamton rangers (ahl) ott: new haven senators (ahl), thunder bay (col. hl) phi: hershey bears (ahl) pit: cleveland lumberjacks (ihl), knoxville cherokees (echl) que: halifax citadels (ahl), greensboro monarchs (echl) sj : kansas city blades (ihl), nashville knights (echl) stl: peoria rivermen (ihl), dayton bombers (echl), flint (col. hl) tb : atlanta knights (ihl) tor: st. john's maple leafs (ahl), raleigh icecaps (echl), brantford (col. hl) van: columbus chill (echl), hamilton canucks (ahl) was: baltimore skipjacks (ahl), hampton roads admirals (echl) win: moncton hawks (ahl), thunder bay (col. hl) ind: cincinnati cyclones (ihl) fort wayne komets (ihl) michigan falcons (colonial hl) milwaukee admirals (ihl) san diego gulls (ihl) st. thomas (colonial hl) 3. college hockey contacts: ncaa: mike machnik <nin15b34@merrimack.edu> wisconsin badgers: jeff horvath <horvath@cs.wisc.edu> ccha, bowling green state: keith instone <instone@euclid.bgsu.edu> ecac, clarkson: bri farenell <farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> - e-mail lists: wayne smith <wts@maine.maine.edu> maintains 2 lists, one for discussions (hockey-l) and one for news (hockey-d): send e-mail to <listserv@maine.maine.edu> with body: subscribe hockey-l <name & favorite team> subscribe hockey-d <name> (a read-only list containing news from hockey-l) up-to-date division i standings and scores can be obtained through the archives of the college hockey mailing list. send a message to the server at listserv@maine.maine.edu with the body containing only the commands (either or both) - ftp site: andy.bgsu.edu the directory "pub/hockey" contains ccha press releases, scores, standings, and rosters. the sub-directory "archives" has archives of the division i college hockey mailing list since 1989. also, archives from the division iii list since may 1992 are available. ncaa hockey championship: semi-finals: maine 4, michigan 3 (ot) lake superior state 6, boston university 1 finals: maine 5, lake superior state 4 freshman paul kariya who was named winner of the 1992-93 hobey baker award as college hockey's top player. the ncaa division i hockey championships will be held at the st. paul civic center in st. paul, minnesota, on march 31 and april 2, 1994. for priority seating call the university of minnesota ticket office at (612) 624-8080, between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., monday through friday or send a postcard to: university of minnesota ticket office 1994 ncaa hockey championships 516 15th avenue se minneapolis mn 55455 - ncaa division i teams ccha (central collegiate hockey association): bowling green, ferris state, illinois-chicago, lake superior, miami, michigan, michigan state, ohio state, western michigan, notre dame, kent state, alaska-fairbanks (affiliate member ) ccha playoff structure: the top 6 will host the bottom 6 (1 vs 12, 2 vs 11, etc) in a two-of-three weekend series the six winners will advance to joe louis arena for single elimination the rest of the way. the top 2 remaining seeds get a bye while 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 on the first night. on the second night, the 4 remaining teams battle it out, leaving only two to play for the championship, on the third night. alaska- fairbanks, as an affiliate member, will be seeded from #7 to #12 by the league office. ecac (eastern college athletic conference) (men's): brown, clarkson, colgate, cornell, dartmouth, harvard, princeton, rpi, st. lawrence, union, vermont, yale ecac (eastern college athletic conference) (women's): brown, colby, cornell, dartmouth, harvard, new hampshire, northeastern, princeton, providence, rochester institute of technology, st. lawrence, the eastern collegiate athletic conference unveiled the nation's first intercollegiate women's ice hockey league and announced the 12 teams will begin play in the 1993-94 season. the top eight finishers in the ecac women's ice hockey league will qualify for a post-season tournament. the league replaces an informal 15-team conference of nine division i and six division iii schools, which held their own respective division tournaments at the end of the regular season. the ecac said it would discontinue its division iii women's tournament after the 1992-93 season. hockey east: boston college, boston university, umass-lowell, maine, merrimack, new hampshire, northeastern, providence wcha (western collegiate hockey association): colorado college, denver, michigan tech, minnesota, minnesota-duluth, north dakota, northern michigan, st cloud, wisconsin alaska-anchorage has joined the wcha as a full-fledged member for 93-94 independents: air force, alabama-huntsville, alaska-anchorage, alaska-fairbanks, army - canadian intercollegiate athletic union ciau championships: finalists: team: division: university of alberta golden bears west university of guelph gryphons ontario west university of toronto varsity blues ontario east university of acadia axemen east semi-finals: acadia 9, alberta 4 toronto 3, guelph 2 finals: acadia 12, toronto 1 4. other hockey leagues - 1992 world championships in czechoslovakia sweden defeated finland 5-2 (gold medal match) czechoslovakia defeated switzerland 5-2 (bronze medal match) final standings (round robin): group a w t l gf ga pts group b w t l gf ga pts finland 5 0 0 32 8 10 russia 4 1 0 23 10 9 germany 4 0 1 30 14 8 czech 4 0 1 18 7 8 usa 2 1 2 14 15 5 switz 2 2 1 12 11 6 sweden 1 2 2 14 12 4 canada 2 1 2 15 18 5 italy 1 1 3 10 18 3 norway 1 0 4 8 16 2 poland 0 0 5 8 41 0 france 0 0 5 8 22 0 austria will replace poland in pool a of 1993 wc in germany the 1993 world championships (pool a) is scheduled to run from apr 18 to may 2 in munich, germany. - 1993 world championships (pool b) in eindhoven, the netherlands #g w l t pts gf ga 1. great britain 7 7 0 0 14 50 13 2. poland 7 6 1 0 12 71 12 3. netherlands 7 5 2 0 10 47 20 4. denmark 7 4 3 0 8 38 24 5. japan 7 3 4 0 6 34 31 6. romania 7 2 5 0 4 20 44 7. china 7 1 6 0 2 12 79 8. bulgaria 7 0 7 0 0 9 58 great britain advances to pool a. bulgaria is relegated to pool c. - 1992 olympic games - e-mail lists: charlie slavin <slavin@maine.maine.edu> maintains olympuck - the olympic hockey discussion list: send e-mail to <listserv@maine.maine.edu> with body: subscribe olympuck your_name favorite country(ies) cis won the gold, canada the silver, and czechoslovakia the bronze (defeated usa). yale hockey coach tim taylor was named coach for the '94 us olympic team. dany dube from the uqtr patriotes (ciau) and tom renney from the kamloops blazers (whl) are co-coaches of canada's national program. the 1998 nagano winter olympic organizing committee said it has approved the addition of women's ice hockey and curling to the list of official medal events at the games. the decision, which came at the organizing committee meeting here, followed an accord reached in nagano between the committee and the ioc coordination committee. the decision will be formally ratified by an executive board meeting of the international olympic committee (ioc) and its session. as a result, the number of total events at nagano will increase to 64 in seven sports. - 1991 canada cup team canada defeated team usa 2 games to 0. - 1992 izvestia hockey tournament final: russia ii - czechoslovakia 2-1 game for 3rd and 4th place: russia i - sweden 4-1 game for 5th and 6th place: finland - switzerland 3-1 game for 7th and 8th place: canada - germany 6-1 final standings for the 25th izvestia cup: 1. russia ii (the russian olympic team) 2. czechoslovakia 3. russia i 4. sweden 5. finland 6. switzerland 7. canada 8. germany - 1992 germany cup russia defeated team canada 6-3 to win the $170,000 four-team germany cup for the third time. the russian team, coached for the first time by the legendary boris michailov, assured itself of the $67,000 winner's check after a 3-1 win over czechoslovakia. the former soviet union and commonwealth of independent states captured the tournament in 1988 and 1991 under viktor tikhonov. - 1992 spengler cup canada, with fabian joseph scoring his second goal of the game at 3:47 of overtime, beat farjestad (sweden) 6-5 in the final of the spengler cup at davos, switzerland. the canadians overcame a two-goal deficit in the final two minutes of regulation and went on to earn their second overtime victory within 15 hours. final: team canada - farjestad (sweden) 6-5 (1-1,2-2,2-2,1-0) ot - 1992 european cup finals duesseldorf, december 30, 1992 bronze: jokerit helsinki - lions milano 4-2. gold: malmoe if - dynamo moscow 4-3 (shootout) this was the third successive european championship for a swedish team: in 1990 and 1991 the champion was djurgaarden (stockholm). - 1993 sweden hockey games final standings: gp w t l gf-ga p 1. sweden 3 2 0 1 13- 8 +5 4 2. czech republic 3 2 0 1 16-11 +5 4 3. russia 3 1 1 1 9-11 -2 3 4. canada 3 0 1 2 13-21 -8 1 sweden wins due to head-to-head result vs the czech republic. - junior leagues contact: whl: randy coulman <coulman@skdad.usask.ca> mitch mcgowan <hamlet@u.washington.edu> the site for the 75th memorial cup tournament has yet to be chosen. it will be staged in ontario but the exact location won't be determined until next spring. in march of '93, the two regular-season division champions from the ontario hockey league will meet in a best-of-seven series at the start of the playoff season. the winner of the series earns the right to host the memorial cup, traditionally held in may. the eventual ohl champion will also participate in the tourney. but if the league champs also happen to be the club hosting the memorial cup, then the league finalists will advance as well." charles poulin (mon draft) of st-hyacinthe (qmjhl) is '92 canadian hockey league player of the year. 1992 memorial cup at seattle round-robin standings w l gf ga sault ste. marie greyhounds (ohl) 3 0 14 8 kamloops blazers (whl) 2 1 10 7 seattle thunderbirds (whl host) 1 2 9 10 verdun college francais (qmjhl) 0 3 5 13 semifinal kamloops 8 seattle 3 final kamloops 5 sault ste. marie 4 - central hockey league contact: marc foster <mfoster@metgem.gcn.uoknor.edu> <mfoster@alliant.backbone.uoknor.edu> ted wollnik <twollnik@rdxsun11.aud.alcatel.com> see section 5 for newsletter information. chl: fort worth fire, wichita thunder, dallas freeze, tulsa oilers, memphis river kings, oklahoma city blazers six non-affiliated teams play a 60 game schedule extending from early november to mid march. each team is owned by the league, with local interests controlling day to day operations. each team has a $100,000 salary cap for 17 total players (16 dress up). unlike the echl, players are not limited to three years in the league. a western division may be added to the central hockey league for the 93- 94 season if the plans of chl president ray miron materialize. miron confirmed that el paso, amarillo, tuscon, and albuquerque are cities under consideration for the western division, which would play some interlocking games with the eastern division. meanwhile, san antonio and houston are close to being confirmed as the league's newest members. - major league hockey a new hockey league with franchises throughout the united states and canada will begin play in the fallof 1993, officials announced wednesday, february 10. major league hockey was founded by roy boe, former president of the new york islanders of the national hockey league and the new york/new jersey nets of the american and national basketball associations. according to boe, the league will debut with six to eight teams playing a schedule of approximately 80 games. franchise applications have been received from groups in chicago, cleveland, dallas, denver, detroit, houston, minneapolis-st. paul, phoenix, san francisco, saskatoon, toronto and worcester, mass., boe said. although the league will not raid existing leagues to stock its rosters, boe said it will seek the ``world's finest hockey players.'' boe said league play will have an international flair and discussed implementing some rules which are reminiscent of those of the ``we're removing the red line, moving the goal nets forward and eliminating all tie games,'' said boe. the mlh office will operate out of stamford, conn. - british premier division: contacts: neil a. mcglynn: <nmcglynn@axion.bt.co.uk> (from na) <nmcglynn@uk.co.bt.axion> (from europe) steve salvini: <steve@cs.hw.ac.uk> contact steve for the gb usenet draft. e-mail list: send e-mail to <uk-hockey-request@cee.hw.ac.uk> to durham wasps defeated nottingham panthers 7-6 in '92 british championship - finnish elite league (sm-liiga): contacts: juha koivisto & kimmo kauranen <hockey@tac.fi> vesa j pyyluoma <veikko@vipunen.hut.fi> final standings 91-92: 1) jokerit, helsinki 2) jyp ht, jyvaskyla 3) hifk, helsinki 4) assat, pori 5) tps, turku 6) lukko, rauma 7) kalpa, kuopio 8) hpk, hameenlinna 9) ilves, tampere 10) reipas, lahti 11) tappara, tampere 12) jokp, joensuu jokp dropped and kiekko-espoo from espoo qualified to the sm-liiga individual stats leaders 91-92: points: makela mikko, tps 25+45=70 (+ playoffs: 2+3=5 ) scoring: selanne teemu, jokerit 39+23=62 (+ playoffs: 10+7=17) all stars 91-92: briza petr (lukko), virta hannu (tps), laurila harri (jyp ht), makela mikko (tps), janecky otakar (jokerit), selanne teemu (jokerit) - german hockey league: contact: andreas stockmeier <stocki@cs.tu-berlin.de> or <stocki@tub.uucp> duesseldorfer eishockey-gemeinschaft defeated sb rosenheim in '92 german - swedish elite league (elitserien): contact: staffan axelsson <etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se> 1992-93 regular season final standings: 1. vasteras 2. brynas 3. malmo 4. farjestad 5. modo 6. lulea 7. leksand 8. djurgarden 9. hv 71 10. rogle 11. frolunda 12. aik brynas defeated lulea 3 games to 2 for the 1993 swedish hockey - swiss first division: kloten became the 1992-93 champions of the swiss league nationale a by beating fribourg-gotteron 4-2 to sweep the final series 3-0. - 1992 women's world championships at finland 1 canada, 2 usa, 3 finland, 4 sweden, 5 china, 6 norway, 7 denmark, 8 switzerland 1993 world junior hockey championships at sweden final standings: gp w t l gf-ga +/- p 1. canada 7 6 0 1 37-17 +20 12 2. sweden 7 6 0 1 53-15 +38 12 3. czechoslovakia 7 4 1 2 38-27 +11 9 4. usa 7 4 0 3 32-23 + 9 8 5. finland 7 3 1 3 31-20 +11 7 6. russia 7 2 2 3 26-20 + 6 6 7. germany 7 1 0 6 16-37 -21 2 8. japan 7 0 0 7 9-83 -74 0 canada wins gold due to head-to-head result vs sweden. 5. info available via e-mail when requesting items via e-mail please include your preferred address in the body of the message. sometimes the reply-to address is not a good thing to go by. - ftp site: wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4) in directory /doc/misc/sports/nhl there are some new hockey files. get the readme file for information and contents. - e-mail lists: list topic (freq.) to subscribe boston bruins bruins-request@cs.usask.ca list address bruins@cs.usask.ca buffalo sabres sabres-request@potter.csh.rit.edu list address sabres@potter.csh.rit.edu los angeles kings kings-request@cs.stanford.edu list address kings@cs.stanford.edu montreal canadiens habs-request@janus.sdsu.edu list address habs@janus.sdsu.edu philadelphia flyers seth@hos1cad.att.com pittsburgh penguins gp2f+@andrew.cmu.edu list address gp2f@andrew.cmu.edu st. louis blues jca2@cec1.wustl.edu san jose sharks sharks-request@medraut.apple.com list address sharks@medraut.apple.com tampa bay lightning wilson@cs.ucf.edu vancouver canucks boey@sfu.ca list address vancouver-canucks@sfu.ca washington capitals david@eng.umd.edu list address caps@monster.umd.edu nhl boxscores (m-f) bks@cbnewsh.cb.att.com nhl boxscores (s-s) jpc@philabs.philips.com nhl goalie stats (d) coulman@cs.usask.ca nhl scores (n) wilson@cs.ucf.edu nhl team stats (w) wilson@cs.ucf.edu ahl newsletter ahl-news-request@hamlet.cmu.edu list address ahl-news@hamlet.cmu.edu echl newsletter echl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu list address echl-news@andrew.cmu.edu us college hockey (see section 3) ncaa division iii hockey hockey3-request@hooville.mitre.org list address hockey3@request.mitre.org chl newsletter mfoster@geohub.gcn.uoknor.edu british league uk-hockey-request@uk.ac.hw.cs olympic hockey (see section 4) freq: m-f=monday-friday, s-s=saturday-sunday, d=daily, n=nightly, w=weekly if you have something interesting, make it available. when requesting, use the keyword in the body or subject. also, specify team, date, etc., where applicable. available from eric rickin <ab870@cleveland.freenet.edu>: keyword description ahladdr ahl team addresses canjuniors canada junior teams nhltv tv stations for each team nhlradio radio stations for each team usjuniors us junior teams xxxxdraft xxxx (for xxxx=1989-1992) nhl entry draft 1991exp 1991 nhl expansion & dispersal draft available from rob springall <rgs7077@ultb.isc.rit.edu>: keyword description ahl up-to-date info on the ahl ihl up-to-date info on the ihl nhl.c a c program that prints the 91-92 nhl schedule for a specified available from stan willis <willis@empire.dnet.hac.com>: keyword description attend 91-92 nhl team home attendance report by quarters pslogos nhl team logos in postscript available from david anthony wyatt <wyatt@ccu.umanitoba.ca>: keyword description alllist all-time list of professional hockey franchises available from roland behunin <behunin@logdis1.oo.aflc.af.mil>: keyword description satinfo satellite info for nhl teams available from mike machnik <nin15b34@merrimack.edu>: keyword description div1sched 92-93 ncaa division i scores mike can also provide a schedule for any of the 46 division i teams to people who ask. e-mail him for details. available from bill clare <clare@kodak.com>: keyword description retired list of retired numbers for nhl players available from staffan axelsson <etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se>: keyword description wcmedals world championships medalists 1920-1992 wcstand world championships all-time standings, pool a 1920-1992 wcalstar world championships all-star teams 1961-1992 wcrostxx world championships gold winning teams' rosters 1958-1992 (specify xx=58-92) wjhc history of medals given at the world junior hockey wjhcstat team and player stats from the world junior hockey available from paul brownlow <paul@data-io.com>: keyword description chlpoy past canadian hockey league players of the year memcup past memorial cup winners available from <wilson@cs.ucf.edu>: to use the statsmailer, send e-mail to "wilson@cs.ucf.edu" with subject "statsmailer" and a body containing the word help to receive a list of allowable commands. things available: nhl team/league schedules/calendars, a plethora of team statistics, scores of games, and some assorted hockey files. seasons 1988-1992 available. new material was added on 1/19/93. available from mitch mcgowan <hamlet@u.washington.edu> keyword description rosters 1993 nhl all-star game rosters nhllead 1991-92 nhl leaders (scoring, goals, assists, power-play goals, short-handed goals, game-winning goals, shots, goals- against average, victories, save percentage, shutouts) zamboni alan thicke's "book of zamboni" opening from the 1991 nhl awards broadcast available from matt militzok <mmilitzo@skidmore.edu> keyword description stats up-to-date nhl statistics available from harry peltz <hbpeltz@mailbox.syr.edu> keyword description scores compilation of nhl scores for the current month (in compressed and uuencoded format) dates can also be specified for specific box scores, but try not to request too many at one time (max 5 box scores or three days). available from richard stueven <gak@wrs.com> keyword description direct current nhl directory file available from michael burger <mmb@lamar.colostate.edu> keyword description tvinfo tv/radio stations for all teams along with network up-to-date division i standings and scores can be obtained through the archives of the college hockey mailing list. send a message to the server at listserv@maine.maine.edu with the body containing only the commands (either or both) get 9293conf stand (for all division i conference standings) get 9293comp schedule (for a full-season listing of division i scores) the schedule is about 1000 lines long and the standings file is about 50 lines. these files are updated more-or-less weekly around monday. contact mike machnik (nin15b34@merrimack.edu) with any questions. 6. usenet hockey pool send e-mail to <andrew@idacom.hp.com>. 7. up-coming dates apr 18 - may 2: the 1993 world championships (pool a), munich, germany. jun 26: nhl entry draft, quebec city, quebec. feb 12 - feb 27, 1994: xvii olympic winter games, lillehammer, norway. 8. answers to some frequently asked questions: q: why are the montreal canadiens called the habs? a: most of the team during the 40-50's was made up of people who lived in and around montreal. hence they were called "les habitants" (natives of montreal). this was then shortened to the habs. q: why is the montreal canadiens logo a large c with an h within it? a: in 1914-15, the canadiens logo consisted of c with an a within it to signify club athletique canadien (cac). the next year, cac no longer existed and it was changed to what it is now to signify club de hockey. q: what is the most informative hockey publication? a: the hockey news is preferred by most north american hockey fans. it is a weekly journal with up-to-date info. phone: 800-268-7793 (canada and us) phone/fax: 0483 776141 (uk and rest of europe) q: how does a 5-minute power-play count in the penalty killing stats in the nhl? a: if x goals are scored, then the team gets credit for x goals in x+1 q: how is +/- computed in the nhl? a: first, +/- only applies to skaters. except for a power-play goal, when a goal is scored, each skater on the ice for the scoring team is given a +, and each skater on the ice for the other team is given a -. short- handed goals do count for +/-. q: what is the five-hole? a: the space between a goalie's pads. there are five major scoring zones: (1) upper left corner of goal, (2) upper right, (3) lower left, (4) lower right, and (5) five-hole. q: what is the meaning of throwing an octopus on the ice? a: this tradition began in detroit in the 1950's when two best-of-seven series were required to win the stanley cup. every time detroit won a game, an octopus with one less arm was thrown on the ice. q: who was the first woman to play in an nhl game? a: manon rheaume, a 20-year-old goaltender, became the first woman ever to play in an nhl game on september 23, 1992 when she started in net for the expansion tampa bay lightning in an exhibition against the st. louis blues. rheaume played the first period before 8,223 at the 10,400-seat expo hall on the florida state fairgrounds and allowed two goals on nine shots. she left with the score tied 2-2, although the lightning ultimately lost the game, 6-4. q: what is the richest contract in nhl history? a: mario lemieux, the superstar center of the pittsburgh penguins, signed the richest contract in nhl history, a seven-year deal believed to be worth about $42 million. lemieux will earn between $6 million and $7 million a year, nearly twice as much as any other player in the league. q: who is the new commissioner of the nhl? a: gary bettman, vice president and general counsel of the national basketball association, was named commissioner of the national hockey league, friday, december 11, 1992. bettman joined the nba in 1981 as assistant general counsel. he became the league's chief legal officer in september of 1984. a new york resident, bettman graduated from cornell university in 1974 and from new york university school of law in 1977. q: how many professional hockey leagues are there in north america? a: six: national, american, international, east coast, central and colonial hockey leagues. 9. miscellaneous: for field hockey discussions, go to the newsgroup rec.sport.hockey.field. for skating discussions, go to the newsgroup rec.skate. some sites get another hockey group, called clari.sports.hockey. c.s.h consists of the upi feed for all upi news articles that are related to hockey, including game results, summaries, scores, standings, etc. much of the information in the nhl team news section comes from this newsgroup. the rec.sport.hockey frequently asked questions posting is posted semi- monthly, usually on the 1st and 15th of each month, during the hockey season. this file was originally created by tom wilson, who posted it during the 1991-92 season. it was taken over by mitch mcgowan for the 1992-93 season. please make corrections via e-mail, indicating "r.s.h faq" as the subject line. feel free to start a discussion on any previously mentioned topic (but use an appropriate subject line). mitch mcgowan <hamlet@u.washington.edu> 
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 from anna matyas: now if we could just clone chelios's personality and transplant it into all of the defensemen on the islanders, capitals, and devils... in other words, you want to turn them all into assholes so they will spend lots of time in the penalty box and get lots of and this comes from a chelios fan... yeah, and also be second in the team in scoring and play about 35 minutes a game and play on the power play and kill penalties and be the best defenseman in the league. i'd take a whole team of chelioses if i could. (that way, when one got a penalty the others could kill it!) 
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 [more about the messier-samuelsson incident] while this is true, strictly speaking, it was the rocksteady replicant who initially used his stick illegally to measure messier's ribcage. there is no question in my mind, from seeing the replay in slo-mo, that ulf-2000 was coming at messier with intent-to-"hasta la vista" in mind, and should have been gone for that. i agree with rick that ulf's cross check wasn't illegal. it was the kind of check you see a dozen times during a game without being called. slo-mos sometimes have a tendency to make things look worse than they really are. besides, if messier can't take the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen. so staffan, how is mattias timmander doing this year? and any impression on markus czeriew??? (lost my roster list) on hammerby? does it look like they will make it to the eliteserien for next year? and then get stomped if markus goes to boston? well matt, mattias timmander hasn't been playing with the modo elite league team yet (just the modo junior team), so i predict he needs a few more years here before he can join the b's. i saw him play in the swedish championship game for junior players this year, and he played very well, a physical game, but not the kind of rough stuff that ulfie does (i suspect you would like to have a ulf type-of-player on the b's team too? :) as for mariusz czerkawski, he has had a *great* season for hammarby in division 1. he scored -if i remember correctly- 93 points this season, and then we have to keep in mind that a 50+ point season in sweden is considered *very good* due to the limited number of games. mariusz is djurgarden property (he was just on loan to hammarby), so he will play in elitserien next season, unless the b's can get him of course. i would say that mariusz has to be one of the most exciting player to watch in swedish hockey this season. ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 well, the patrick division got a little more interesting last night. the islanders lost in ot and the devils tied the pens. that means if the isles beat the devils on friday, the will meet the caps in the playoffs. however, i have some more comments on the islanders and hockey in general that i need to get off my chest :). first of all, with the islanders back-to-back lackluster performances against the whalers, one may think that the islanders are out of shape. these guys always suck wind in the 2nd period, come on a little in the 3rd and run out of gas too soon. it is unbelieveable how many one goal games these guys have lost. anyway, the games was pretty wide open. the isles still have tons of trouble scoring. the whalers played a golie in is 1st nhl start, i think his name was lenarduzzi (sp?). (his nhl debut was the tuesday tie against the isles). like i mentioned before, this guy looked like the best golie on the planet for a while (until he misplayed a mahlakov slap shot to go to ot). i say it's because the isles don't shoot correctly. has anyone else noticed this? also, i think it is really a shame for hockey when i guy like mick vukota gets as much ice time as he does. this guy has about as much hockey talent as jiggs macdonald (who did play hockey, i think). anytime he gets the puck it gets stolen, and he always starts fights and gets needless penalties. richard pilon is another guy who is on the ice to stir up crap. and he's a defenseman. he's got to be approaching negative infinity for his plus/minus. this guy gets beaten all the time. why the need for such "enforcers"? not only do fights slow the game down alot, but it takes away from the guys who are really trying to play the game. i'll be one of the few to admit, i do enjoy a good fight once in a while, but only when it's "called for". you know, when a guy checks the goalie too hard. in other words, a violation of "hockey ethics" might cause you to get puched. but there is no need to start crap when you are losing or becuase you can get away with it!! does anyone agree that referees need to be a little less lenient in the 3rd and ot? i mean come on already. i'm sick of seeing teams pulling guys down, holding guys etc. just becuase the referee doesn't call it. ot and late in the 3rd should be a time for strategy, not physical prowess. trying to set up a goal should be first and foremost. if you are so afraid that the other team is going to score that you have to pull a guy down to prevent it, you don't deserve to win in the first place. just my honest opinion, gary at hofstra accgsg@vaxb.hofstra.edu accgsg@hofstra.bitnet 
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 if there's anyone who can help me on these items, please let me know. * markus naslund -- i saw that modo lost early in the national tournament and that he was playing for the national team at the world championships. any stats available? any word on how he's playing? when is he expected to join the club? markus had a good season in modo in the swedish elite league, scoring 22 goals, 17 assists, 39 points and 67 pim in 39 games. as daryl points out, markus won't be joining the pens for this year's playoffs, since the world championships starts april 18th. but there is a good chance that markus will join the pens before next season. modo, though, naturally wants to keep their superstars forsberg and naslund, so the latest news on this is that modo is looking for personal sponsors for forsberg and naslund in order to match the kind of money they would receive in nhl. by 'the club', i would assume you mean the pens. don't hold your breath, you aren't going to see naslund this year. the world championship tournament doesn't start until 18 april. so nhl teams won't see any influx of europeans, and no team playing in the wc will see a sudden influx of 'eliminated' nhlers. the earliest a player on a playoff bound team could join a wc-team is the last game of the round robin, and i doubt any coach is going to want to play short one player for that long. actually, swedish coach curt lundmark is thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers. it is mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team, although in a late stage of the tournament. technically, i seem to recall that you can leave spots open until 24 hrs before the wc final. ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 i didn't say every team must have a number of local players. rather, the european teams should get the chance to sign their top players before the rest of the league comes in. i agree that birthplace isn't that important, dusseldorfer eg of the german league average close to 10,000 fans and they don't have a single german-born forward! lion milan made the european final four with fifteen canadian-born players... but nationality is going to be an issue in sweden and finland, i think. we really need an issue preventing lindros and mario from ending up being drafted by a european team and vice versa. player trades are a different matter - any player can end up anywhere after being drafted. deg has many german-born forwards in the team. in fact the majority of players are german-born. 1992-93 deg had 11150 average in 11800 spectator arena. my possible-nhl(european league)-site list: switzerland : berne, zurich (lugano and 1-2 others) germany : dusseldorf, cologne, berlin, munich (mannheim, rosenheim) sweden : stockholm, gothenburg (malmo, gavle) finland : helsinki (turku, tampere) italy : milan france : paris (chamonix, ruoen?) norway : (oslo) austria : (vienna, villach) chech : (prag) slovakia : (bratislava) russia : (moscow, st. petersburg) great britain: ? netherlands : ? petteri kortelainen 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53529">
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 anyway, this game continued a trend that has sadly been taking shape for a couple of weeks now. i had hoped it was fatigue, or an aberration, but i can't snow myself any longer. alex mogilny must be benched as a disciplinary action, and soon. his explanation for ysebaert jumping between him and lafontaine to score the winning goal yesterday? "wasn't my guy, ask patty about it." actually this stuff from mogilny doesn't surprise me all that much. about 4 or 5 weeks ago i read in the toronto sun a quote from alex; it went something like [sarcastically]: "yep, patty's the man. he's responsible for the team's success...i'm a nobody around here." i was going to post it at the time...i must have forgot since nobody else was talking about him being a problem. if i heard that in the locker room, i'd beat the shit out of him on the spot. patty took responsibility in the press, taking the heat off of alex. that's because lafontaine is the epitome of class, and a consummate team player. yep, i'd beat the shit out of him too. lafontaine really must be a team player...makes you wonder what the islander management was thinking. my question is what the hell is muckler doing? whether he wishes to admit it or not, the team is his to coach, and if he can't do the job then maybe the job should be given to somebody who can. gee, kinda like alex's spot on the team, isn't it? dr.d [the devils advocate] 
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 im sorry to tell you this, but unless they pull off another 1986 miracle, there is no way the habs will win this year. ever since they traded for ramage, and since savard came off injury, they have been playing shinny. and you cant blame roy for the 4-0 loss to washington, when 20 players could not score one goal. i know, you think i am a boston fan, but all of my years have been dedicated to les habs. david degan well, it seems that the habs have been much talked-about of late, so here's my $0.02. these guys have absolutely no concept of how to play in front of the damn net!!! watch them in the offensive zone, especially on the powerplay. damphousse or lebeau will skate all over the bloody zone, maybe pass to the point, get it back, skate some more, pass it around....but where's the shot??! answer: the shot is totally useless because they lack a forward who stands in front of the net a la` neely, shanahan, tocchet, etc etc. too bad demers won't put dipietro or leclair on the powerplay more often. dammit, even ewen would at least cause some disruptions. montreal desperately needs a power forward with some talent, imo. then watch them in their own zone. patrick roy is screened on everything. say what you want about his performance; imnsho he cannot stop what he cannot see. and montreal's defence does a miserable job of clearing the front of the net. last night against washington roy played a *great* game. the first goal came on the most ridiculous goalmouth scramble i've seen in a long time, and he didn't have a hope in hell of stopping the shot. the second goal came on a deflection of a shot he only partially saw anyway. pathetic defence. the third goal was en. no wonder he gets pissed off at his defencemen. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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 wales conference, adams division, semifinal boston vs. buffalo: the bruins are playing some excellent hockey, and with cam neely back and moog his old self again this should be a cake-walk. bruins in 5. i'm hoping for a fuhr miracle, but i agree that boston will likely win the series. goaltending is about equal, top offensive players are about equal (mogilny-lafontaine vs. oates-juneau), but buffalo has no answer to neely (not to imply that neely is not a top offensive player btw, in fact he's one of my favourites even though he's a damn bruin :) ). and the rest of the matchup wrt lineup favours boston anyway. but i think it will go six. quebec vs. montreal: this one is very tough to call. montreal certainly has the experience factor, but quebec is more talented imho. it'll come down to the goalies. i'll go with experience and roy. canadiens in 7. agreed here...but montreal will be pushed to the limit. is it just me, or does everything montreal does in the playoffs come down to roy? go habs!! boston vs. montreal: will bruin domination continue in this rivalry? yes. moog has consistently outperformed roy in the playoffs (after 1986)..[other stuff] bruins in five. i can't predict a montreal victory because i've been watching them play for 6 weeks and imo they severly need some tougher players, especially to play in the garden. last time they beat the b's 5-2 but boston had a clear territorial advantage; the victory was roy's. at the same time, i can't bring myself to predict the possibility of a loss, so i'll just say i will not be putting money on this series. :-) patrick division, semifinal pittsburgh vs. ny islanders: what can i say? the pens are flying high and have the most talent in the league. agreed. ny doesn't have the goaltending to stop the onslaught, independent of the trouble they have given pittsburgh this year. pens in five, which is credit to ny. washington vs. new jersey: capitals in 5. agreed here too, but i think it will go at least six. jersey has a decent team, and washington has done poorly against the division this year. pittsburgh vs. washington: if the caps had bill ranford i might see an upset, but don beaupre just doesn't inspire my hopes. penguins in 6. i think they will use tabaracci more after beaupre gets shelled. i don't think it will go six either...*maybe* five. conference final: pittsburgh vs. boston: a replay of last year. the penguins are just as good as 12 months ago, and the bruins are much improved. but... penguins in 6. if pittsburgh plays boston, imo they win in likely five, possibly six. they own the bruins. if they play montreal, i think it will go to seven, and once again i won't be putting money on the seventh game. i say seven because the habs have played pittsburgh very tough this season. campbell conference, norris division, semifinal chicago vs. st. louis (or minnesota): blackhawks in 5. chicago will win, but i think in at least six. chicago is not that good, imo. and remember that they take ridiculous numbers of penalties. detroit vs. toronto: the leafs have had an excellent season, but they've been playing playoff hockey all year - the habs under burns were the same way and always wilted in the playoffs. red wings in 5. very true. the leafs have much to be proud of, but they will soon find out why montreal did so lousy in the playoffs. toronto might win two or three at mlg though. wings in six, maybe even seven. final: chicago vs. detroit: this will be a war. fedorov will win it in ot. red wings in 7. it _will_ be a war...possibly the most intense playoff series of them all. and yes, i think detroit will win. probert will have to come up big though. smythe division semi-finals: vancouver vs. winnipeg: canucks in 7. our first disagreement. canucks are playing like shit. they don't use their size *at* *all*, which may explain why they get hammered 8-1 by a team chasing them (calgary)....winnipeg in six. calgary vs. los angeles: this would have been tough to call, except for three things. 1/ the kings don't have a goalie; 2/ gary roberts will be back; 3/ the kings shot themselves in the foot by trading a proven winner (paul coffey) for a proven loser (jimmy carson). gretzky is just too weary to carry this group. flames in 5. this is also tough for me to call, because i haven't seen the smythe enough. i don't think roberts will be well enough to figure in, coffey is a non-issue, who cares what carson has done before, and *never* underestimate gretzky. la in six. final: vancouver vs. calgary: flames in 6. if it is these two, calgary will not need six games. but i think it will be la-winnipeg anyway, and la in seven, because of home ice. coference final: detroit vs. calgary: red wings in 7. wow, must've been tough to go against your team. but let's see, i picked la-detroit. detroit will win, probably in six. stanley cup final: pittsburgh vs. detroit: three in a row and official 'dynasty' status for the pens? or can the wings complete a dream season? well, the wings are better in goal (not sufficiently so though imho) and have better d-men. however, mario and the boys can sure score. look for jagr to shine in the playoffs, though i sure would love to see probert beat some sense into him. the pens are just too much, especially since detroit will have a tougher battle to get here. penguins in 5. if pittsburgh plays detroit, it will go longer than five, and i wouldn't bet against the wings. they are very strong, imo, and nobody knows *how* strong because they've been underachieving most of the year. if forced to choose, though, i'd have to take the penguins. a side note. vlad, last week you said that selanne was a better player than gilmour. no way. he is a more talented pure goal scorer...but aside from the age difference, there is no way i would take him over gilmour on my team. i'm not asking for flames, either, btw....i've spent more than enough time arguing on behalf of selanne and i still say he's a great player. but while he and gilmour are both dangerous offensively (give teemu an edge), gilmour *does* *it* *all*. i know a lot of gilmour-bashing goes on, esp. from flame fans. but imo you guys are letting your dislike of gilmour cloud your judgement when it comes to his skill. he is easily one of the best all-round players in the nhl. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53533">
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 just a quick note about manon's immediate future: rumor has it(usa today's spor ts page) that she will be playing with tampa bay's affiliate in the echl(i thin k. it's been a couple of days. :)) she will supposedly be competing for the num ber 2 goaltender spot. i think, after her performance, which was damn good for someone who hasn't played squat all year, that we'll be seeing a lot more of h er in atlanta in the years to come. -go blades!! bring home the turner cup, again!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53535">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53535" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 he was already offered $65 million for them from northlands coliseum but refused the offer.... i don't think he is going to sale. i think he may decide to move the team to the states though where he can draw more revenue from the team. pocklington just wanted to wake up the powers that be holding political office, in northlands, and in the business community that the oilers with their current lease arrangement are in a state where on a yearly basis they will likely have an operating loss based on "normal" hockey revenues and expenses. that he did this was a good thing...it is better he complain early, and make the city aware of a potential looming crisis before he begins to lose millions and millions of dollars...which would truly jeopardize the franchise. pocklington's first option is not to sell or to move, but to sell a minority share of the team (to realize some of the appreciated value of the team) and to get a better arena deal, either in northlands, or via a new building. pocklington probably isn't going to get exactly what he wants...but ultimately he will probably get enough, or will sell to someone who will probably get enough. there are a lot of risks in moving a team also... ...one has to remember "peter puck's principle"...it is better to spend other people's money than one's own if at all possible. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53539">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53539" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the bottom line is the bruins are the better team this year. montreal fans have been screaming for years that their beloved canadiens deserve another cup. since the removal of the french canadien rule, they have been screaming foul. welcome to league parity, something the rest of the league has had for years. even if the habs do beat boston in the playoffs, they won't get by the pens. i do agree with you, boston is the more taleneted team. the french canadian rule was an extremely short term feature when the universal draft was instituted in the sixties and only lasted for a few years...and really didn't have any substantial effect during that period. the canadiens stanley cup achievements were earned on a level playing field. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53540">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53540" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ok, i'll join in the fun and give my playoff predictions: 1st round: pitt vs nyi: pitt in 4. wash vs njd: wash in 6. bos vs buf: bos in 5. que vs mon: mon in 7. chi vs stl: chi in 4. det vs tor: det in 6. van vs win: win in 6. cal vs la: cal in 5. 2nd round: pitt vs wash: pitt in 4. bos vs mon: bos in 6. chi vs det: chi in 7. win vs cal: cal in 5. 3rd round: pitt vs bos: pitt in 5. chi vs cal: chi in 5. finals: pitt vs chi: pitt in 5. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53541">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53541" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 that's probably because they couldn't find anyone to sponser it... maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins/us steel steel rod night-- close enough? maybe in the 60's, but not now. steel is a dead industry in pgh. no, a giveaway night in the 90's for pgh would be "baboon liver night" sponored by the pittsburgh zoo... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53544">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53544" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 after watching the pengiuns all year (and as many other teams as possible), i've really noticed an increase in tom barasso's cheap shots this year (and not noticed a corrsponding increase with other goaltenders). have a look at ed belfour. he also kicked john mclean. of course he wasn't called for that. belfour kicked gerrard gallant when the wings played the 'hawks a couple of weeks ago. no penalty. no review. no suspension. this was after he attacked bob probert in the previous period. he was penalized for that. there's no doubt in my mind that barasso is the dirtiest golatender since hextall. he's also very good. likewise belfour. too bad he goes down so much! :-) brian down (bdown@vis.toronto.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53545">
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 player: points: +/- subtraction: lemieux 157 53 -104 lafontaine 145 13 -132 oates 141 12 -129 yzerman 138 33 -105 selanne 137 8 -129 this is wrong. among lemieux's 157 points, we do not know how many are power play points. we may be able to find out how many pp goal he scored, but not how many pp assist he accumulated. we also don't know the # times he was on the ice but not credited on the goals the pens that is what my point really was. there is not straight dependency between the +/- and scored points. apparently most of the netters have realized it by themselves. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53546">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53546" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs. let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st.louis. that just makes it easier in the second round with all the rest they will get and tor/det getting none. for the conf. champ they will have a hard time versus the division but that div. will be pretty battered also so the advantage goes to the hawks again. then bring pitt. and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better to get that far and lose than to not go. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53553">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53553" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 bad news for the patrick division next year. caps gm david polie is reportedly trying to get a front office job with the nhl. i can't believe polie has not been fired despite 10 years of mediocrity. yes! yes! the idiot's gone! the idiot's gone!!!!!!! i wish this happened before he traded hrivnak. anyway, the idiot's gone!!! he's not gone yet. the position opening is down to polie and the sabres' gm gerry meehan. i think i'd like to see meehan gone... valerie hammerl "some days i have to remind him he's not hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu mario lemieux." herb brooks on claude acscvjh@ubms.cc.buffalo.edu lemieux, top scorer for the devils, but v085pwwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu known for taking dumb penalties. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53556">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53556" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 +/- is a good stat because it is the only stat that i am aware of that takes into account defensive play. it isn't a measure of defensive play- it takes into account offense and defence- all aspects of play. if we are interested of real all-round players, the power play stats should be considered, too. because the power play is also one aspect of play! there is still something to be done with these player evaluation tools!! imo any good player should score on power plays because of the man advantage. very good power play scorers tend to become overrated because their point totals are inflated by power play points. +/- tends to expose these overrated players such as brett hull, john cullen and dave andreychuck. given the opportunity to play power play consistently, any player can inflate his totals. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53560">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53560" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 everybody. please send me your predictions for the stanley cup playoffs! i want to see who people think will win.!!!!!!! please send them in this format, or something comparable: 1. winner of buffalo-boston 2. winner of montreal-quebec 3. winner of pittsburgh-new york 4. winner of new jersey-washington 5. winner of chicago-(minnesota/st.louis) 6. winner of toronto-detroit 7. winner of vancouver-winnipeg 8. winner of calgary-los angeles 9. winner of adams division (1-2 above) 10. winner of patrick division (3-4 above) 11. winner of norris division (5-6 above) 12. winner of smythe division (7-8 above) 13. winner of wales conference (9-10 above) 14. winner of campbell conference (11-12 above) 15. winner of stanley cup (13-14 above) i will summarize the predictions, and see who is the biggest internet guru predicting guy/gal. send entries to richard madison rrmadiso@napier.uwaterloo.ca ps: i will send my entries to one of you folks so you know when i say i won, that i won!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53561">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53561" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the hawks won the norris div, and sealed their fate. it's bad luck to win the norris. the hawks will sweep the blues in their dreams but will lose in 6 in reality. i predict that in the 6 game with the blues belfour will go down on his knees 7000 time s and will spend the rest of the time looking behind him self. butcher will pound roenick and the warthawks have no one tough enough to prevent it bye bye wart hawks 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53562">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53562" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 smythe division vancouver vs. winnipeg - jets in 7 the jets have played the canucks tough the last three games. everyone is healthy for the jets. i'm biased. :) calgary vs. los angeles - flames in 6 from what i have seen, the kings have looked flat lately. i just can't see them getting by the flames. final- jets in 6. the jets haven't lost to the flames in '93. they will, but it will be a close series that will come down to how well roberts has recovered. i don't think he'll be 100%, and while it will help, it won't be enough. norris division chicago vs. st. louis/minnesota chicago in 6 against the blues, 7 against the stars. detroit vs. toronto - wings in 6. the wings should be able to shutdown gilmour and andreychuk. chelvadae is more experienced than potvin. final - hawks in 7. brutal series. probert and chelios will go at it. belfour is better than chelvadae, imho. conference final - hawks in 6. it hurts, but the hawks are more experienced, and that will carry them through to the final. prince of wales conference adams division boston vs. buffalo - bruins in 6. b's can check, juneau is darn good, and neely. the sabres rely too much on lafontaine and mogilny. quebec vs. montreal - montreal in 7. classic battle, the inexperience will hurt the nords, this year. final - bruins in 5. habs will be hurting from their series with the nords, and boston has been able to control the scorers on the habs. patrick division pittsburgh vs islanders/devils - pens in 5. one word. mario. washington vs. devils/islanders - caps in 6 / devils in 7. i think the caps can beat the isles, but not the devils. tabaracci has been strong in goal, and if he plays like last year, he could carry the team. it doesn't matter, though. final - pens in 5. two more words. stevens. jagr. cup final - pens in 6. three last words. tocchet. murphy. barrasso. the only thing i don't like about this is that the pens woofers are going to be out in full force again. (i don't mean the regular penguin fans...it's just like the bunch around here that if these predictions are true will post like nuts while the jets are winning, but we won't hear from again when they lose.) (oh yeah...next year's cup prediction...jets in 7 over the nords.) daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53564">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53564" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 greetings! steve summers and the chief were on 48 hours last night shmoozing sports. i unfortunately missed it. those of you who saw it, can you please provide a synopsis. the czar of mainframe computing <jbe5@musicb.mcgill.ca> mcgill university ---> i'm too sexy for cobol. ---> habs...it doesn't look good! ---> let's go expos! | peter peter pumkin eater, | | knew a chick but couldn't meet her.| | saw her brother one fine day, | | sucked his cock now he's gay! | | --andrew dice clay | disclaimer: * needless to say that the opinions expressed by the czar represent * * those of the faculty, staff, and students of mcgill university. * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53565">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53565" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 pens-6 nj devils-6 first period: scoring: 1, pittsburgh, daniels(needham, tippett)4:14. 2, nj devils, c. lemieux(semak, driver)10:19. 3, pittsburgh, stevens (tocchet, murphy)12:40ppg. 4, nj devils, zelepukin(driver, niedermayer) 17:26. penalties: pgh, stevens(roughing)1:30. njd, pellerin-double minor(cross-checking)1:30. njd, zelepukin(tripping)7:21. njd, stasny(holding)11:15. pgh, taglianetti(roughing)13:51. njd, lemieux (roughing)13:51. pgh, jagr(tripping)15:23. second period: scoring: 5, pittsburgh, lemieux(murphy, tocchet)1:42. 6, nj devils, semak(lemieux, zelepukin)2:27. 7, pittsburgh, mceachern (jagr, barrasso)4:24. 8, njd, stevens(guerin, pellerin)5:45. 9, pittsburgh, lemieux(unassisted)12:40shg. 10, nj devils, richer (nicholls)15:53. 11, nj devils, lemieux(zelepukin)17:40. penalties: pgh, stevens(roughing)3:06. njd, mckay(roughing)3:06. pgh, mullen (hooking)10:42. pgh, tocchet(roughing)12:06. njd, stevens(slashing) 12:06. njd, lemieux(unsportsmanlike conduct)12:40. pgh, u. samuelsson(cross checking)20:00. pgh, barrasso-double minor(spearing) served by mceachern, 20:00. njd, holik(cross checking)20:00. njd, lemieux(roughing)20:00. third period: scoring: 12, pittsburgh, mullen(jagr, lemieux)18:54. penalties: njd, daneyko(interference)3:37. pgh, stevens(roughing) 9:18. njd, holik(roughing)9:18. pgh, match penalty-game misconduct,9:50. njd, zelepukin(tripping)12:01. pgh, stevens(roughing)18:41. njd, daneyko(roughing)18:41. overtime: scoring: no scoring. penalties: no penalties. shots on goal: pittsburgh: 9-11-8-2=30 nj devils: 12-15-9-3=39 goalies: barrasso(39 shots, 33 saves. 43-14-5) billington(30 shots, 24 saves) ref: devorski linesmen: gauthier, vines contact for the penguins lli+@cs.cmu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53566">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53566" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 john p. curcio (jpc@philabs.philips.com) responded to my drivel: i still am surprised that no one has tried giving away the goodies at the end of the game. the two problems with that, of course, are that you would want to make sure the first people in the building would be assured of getting them (probably redeemable vouchers), and that the building managers want to avoid at all costs delaying people as they leave the building, if, for instance, the goodies are given to people as they exit. i went to the new jersey devils/carvel ice cream puck night (tm) last year to see the beloved bruins play. the pucks were given out at the end of the game. i could just imagine what would have happened late in the third if the bruins were winning.... it figures, after i posted the first article, i found out that the whalers are going to be using coupons for the the giveaway on friday night. i believe that is is the "some big corporation (probably a bank) flying disk night." i think that we could all see the potential for danger here... |> all in all, i have seen a whole bunch of giveaways land on the ice, and it |> never ceases to amuse me. i'm just thankful for the players that no one has |> yet to sponsor 'lead pipe night' at any arenas... that's probably because they couldn't find anyone to sponser it... maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins/us steel steel rod night-- close enough? naah, it'd probably bounce off of jay caufield. i was at a cincinnati cyclones game a year ago when the local country station sponsored a kazoo giveaway. after a particularly bad call by the underexperienced echl ref, it was kazoostorm time down on the ice. i thought this was a pathetic display by the fans, but they were rightfully 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53568">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53568" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |> the presence of the new team in miami(i can't say south florida; |> it's too long) makes me think of an interesting question. can you sell |> the hispanic community on hockey? miami is 60-70% hispanic. this |> community |> has no experience and no previous exposure to hockey that i know of. |> the |> teams in ny and la which also have big hispanic groups do not seem to |> try |> to woo this group. what will miami do? could they get spanish-language |> tv and radio coverage? you'll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can't play it on account of availability or financial reasons. hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off. well, suffice to say that it is a sport for those able to make the substantial investment in equipment, etc. but here's something, do you think that the availability of in-line skates and road hockey could contribute to a rise in awareness of ice hockey? i would argue this is having an effect here. kids play ice hockey in the winter and road hockey in the summer with in-line skates. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53569">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53569" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 according to the inside information, alpo suhonen won't be the next headcoach of jokerit. it's pretty sure that boris majorov will continue, although owner of the team previously said that he will chance the coach. wrong information. they just announced that suhonen has made a deal with 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53571">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53571" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 gainey is the best defensive forward ever. i stand by that assessment. he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame. did you ever watch him play? he never made a technical error. i watched him over his entire career. i have never seen a player, and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon, screw up as many breakaways as bob gainey. and i will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down. you have been sold a bill of goods on bob gainey. gainey was a plugger. and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on... these players all are pretty good players. they are the depth that the dynasties had to win stanley cups. they tend to be the very good second line guys- who would be first liners on most weaker clubs in the nhl. they were all important to their clubs. probably, several of these stanley cup winning teams would not have won the cups they did if it were not for the depth provided by these players. they compare to rick tocchet and ron francis of the penguins. very good players who can lead lesser teams (francis-hartford, tocchet-philly) who provide the depth to the team that is currently best in the nhl. as a defensive forward, there have been none better than bob gainey. that doesn't mean he was the best player (or even the best forward) the canadians had at that time, but he was excellent at what he did. gainey could dominate games with his defence. he didn't need to get goals to dominate. he shut down the opposition and was thus valuable. there has never been anyone any better at doing this. not ever. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53572">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53572" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 if the penguins get out of the patrick, they will win the cup. however, their hardest task is to get out of that division. i'm sure that washington will most definitly throw a rench into the penguin plans. i'm a canucks fan (not that i think much of their chances this year), but it seems to me like washington is the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup. i was under the impression that the penguins has had the caps number for most of the season. mathew tasalloti mpr teltech ltd. vancouver, bc, canada of course no one asked me, i always interject my opinions on matters i have no concern over. go islanders, playoffs here we come go jets for '93 and last year the capitals had the pens number up until about game 3 of the playoffs. john horstmann 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53576">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53576" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 my vote goes to john vanbiesbrouck. his mask has a skyline of new york city, and on the sides there are a bunch of bees (beezer). it looks really sharp. keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53578">
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 according to the fan here in t.o., ottawa has won the daigle e sweepstakes. they didn't mention why, but san jose had more goals than the sen-sens, so i have a hunch this is why ottawa would pick first..... 
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 it is meaningless to compare one player's plus/minus statistic with another players' out of the context of the role and the playing time of the players involved. it's just as meaningless to compare goals, assists, pim and any other stat i can think of. each player is asked to take a unique role for his team. the contexts will never be the same from one player to another playing on the same team or different teams. and yet ... awards are given and promotions received based in part on these meaningless stats. the operative words are "in part" - stats must be interpreted, tempered with other information one has about the player. to compare jagr's and francis's plus/minus is ridiculous and absurd... and comparing jagr's and francis's points is just as ridiculous and absurd... but not more ridiculous and absurd as comparing goals, assists, points, +\- for selanne, lindros, juneau, potvin, and the other rookies in the league... and yet... how about looking at them for what they are and enjoy the game. 
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 well, since someone probably wanted to know, here's this year's playoff matchups on the left, and what the matchups would be next year under the new alignment and playoff-matchup rules. the same 16 teams make the playoffs under next year's rules, and three of the first round matchups are the same (que-mtl, chi-stl, van-win). pit --+ +-- chi | pit --+ +-- chi nj --+ | | +-- stl | buf --+ | | +-- stl was --+ | | | | +-- det | que --+ | | | | +-- tor nyi --+ | | +-- tor | mtl --+ | | +-- cal bos --+ | | +-- van | was --+ | | +-- van buf --+ | | | | +-- win | nj --+ | | | | +-- win que --+ | | +-- cal | bos --+ | | +-- det mtl --+ +-- la | nyi --+ +-- la jim murawski sr. software engineer (412) 268-2650 [office] administrative computing and (412) 268-6868 [fax] information services jjm+@andrew.cmu.edu carnegie mellon university office: ucc 155 4910 forbes avenue pittsburgh, pa 15213-3890 "le mieux! le magnifique! soixante six! claude...non!" there are 1374 days until clinton (clinocchio) leaves office (1373 too many). 
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 the flyers closed out the season last night with their 8th straight victory, a 5-4 ot winner over the hartford whalers. the ot game winner came from dimitri yushkevich, just his 5th of the season and his first game winner. the flyers never led up until that point in the game. for the whalers, the loss marked an nhl record 9th ot loss this season. roster move: gord hynes was called to to play in place of ryan mcgill injuries: ryan mcgill injured his hand in a fight 4/15 and was scratched. lines: eklund-lindros-recchi beranek-brind'amour-dineen lomakin-butsayev-conroy faust-acton-brown galley-bowen yushkevich-hawgood carkner-hynes dominic roussel game summary: i didn't get tv coverage of the game, and since it was stormy in these parts i didn't have the best radio coverage either. here's the box score followed by a few things i did pick up: first period: hartford, nylander 10, 8:51 philadelphia, recchi 53 (lindros, brind'amour), 19:59.8 (pp) penalties - verbeek, har (holding), :55; carkner, phi (roughing), 13:53; houda, har (interference) 18:43 second period: hartford, burt 6 (cunneyworth, kron), 2:00 philadelphia, bowen 1 (eklund, recchi), 7:09 hartford, nylander 11 (zalapski, sanderson), 9:38 penalties - galley, phi, major-game misconduct (spearing) :58; verbeek, har major-game misconduct (spearing), :58; brown, phi (tripping), 3:22; zalapski, har (tripping), 15:51; brind'amour, phi (slashing), 19:50 third period: hartford, kron 14 (sanderson, cassels), 1:24 (pp) philadelphia, beranek 15 (lomakin, yushkevich), 3:11 philadelphia, faust 2 (brind'amour, roussel), 3:38 penalties - houda, har (tripping), 4:20; hawgood, phi (holding), 5:30 overtime: philadelphia, yushkevich 5 (faust), 1:15. penalties - none power play: philadelphia 1 of 4, hartford 1 of 4 goalies: philadelphia, roussel 14-11-5 (30 shots - 26 saves) hartford, lenarduzzi, 1-1-1 (38 - 33) on the first hartford goal, gord hynes misplayed the puck at the flyers blue line and nylander stripped him and took off. the recchi goal was a 2 on 1 with lindros. the bowen goal was just a puck he threw at the net, got a good carom and it ended up behind the goalie. on the second nylander goal he got three whacks at the puck before it went in. this is the most frustrating part of the flyers defense. take the body, and if they get one shot and beat you fine. don't give them another chance. carkner, galley and mcgill are all terrible about this, i'll bet money at least one of them was the closest flyer to the play. that's all i have, my radio got bad after that and i was lucky to know who it was that scored, much less how. from what i heard, roussel had a very strong game. after the game, gene hart asked bobby taylor to pick the three stars of the season rather than of the game. it was garry galley #3 for his career high point total (i'm surprised that a former goalie wouldn't look closer at his defensive play), tommy soderstrom #2 for his team record tying 5 shutouts in only about 1/2 a season and, mark recchi #1 for his all time high team single season scoring mark. but here's the odd part. he couldn't decide between lindros and recchi for number 1. if he picks recchi as #1 after he had a hard time choosing between him and lindros, doesn't that make lindros #2???? what? you wanna know my three stars of the season? well, since you asked... #1 eric lindros. eric dominates a game simply by stepping out onto the ice. the difference between the team's record with him and without him is no accident. i believe that the team could have been almost as successful without recchi. there is no question that this team is significantly better with eric lindros on it, and i think that he will deservedly wear the 'c' on his jersey next season. #2 tommy soderstrom. 5 shutouts was second in the league to only ed belfour, and tommy didn't have a chris chelios (booo) in front of him. he also didn't play a complete season due to heart problems (sentimental edge here, my family has a history of heart problems). there's no question in my mind that tommy soderstrom is this teams goalie of the future, and if roussel complains again about being number 2 look for him to be traded within 2 years. #3 mark recchi. again, you can't argue with an all-time team high single season scoring mark. there are an awful lot of teams that didn't have a single player get as many points. plus, mark is the only flyer to play the entire season. not a tough choice. honorable mentions: rod brind'amour topped his single season high point total which he set last year. the difference was that he wasn't on the top line this year and didn't get as much playing time. then again, he didn't get the defensive attention that he got last year from the other team either. dimtri yushkevich was the teams most consistent defenseman. yes, he made rookie mistakes, but he was usually fast enough to make up for them. i have a feeling that with his shot he'll score a few more points next year without giving up anything in his own zone, and i suspect that he'll be the teams top defenseman in years to come. garry galley was the team's point leader from defensemen. again, there are some things you just can't argue with. and he battled with chronic fatigue syndrome, he certainly deserves kudos for only missing one game, and that was against his wishes under doctors orders. but his defensive play often negates his offensive contribution. a little more caution, and a little bit smarter in his own end will make him a much more important part of the team next year. brent fedyk was the leagues biggest improvement over last years point total. but consistency became a problem for him. a couple misc notes mostly for mailing list members: tom misnik, a member of the mailing list, would like to exchange e-mail addresses with any list members who want to keep in touch over the summer. if you're interested, you can send him mail at: att!acr.org!tmisnik the flyers end the season 1 game below .500 in 5th place, their best winning percentage since going .500 in 1988-89. 14-20-3 within the division (4th in patrick), 23-14-5 at home. they finished 17th overall, will draft 10th in next years entry draft (quebec had the 1st rounder, though). they scored as many goals as they allowed, 319. the 8 straight wins is the most since they won 13 in a row in 1985. i will be sending out final stats as soon as i get the issue of the hockey news that contains them, since there are no more games for me to go to i have no other way of getting them. i hope you've all enjoyed this years hockey season as much as i have. knowing the future that we have coming to us made missing the playoffs one more time almost bearable. flyers team record watch: eric lindros: 41 goals, 34 assists, 75 points (rookie records) club record goals: club record points: eric lindros 40 1992-93 dave poulin 76 1983-84 brian propp 34 1979-80 brian propp 75 1979-80 ron flockhart 33 1981-82 eric lindros 75 1992-93 dave poulin 31 1983-84 ron flockhart 72 1981-82 bill barber 30 1972-73 pelle eklund 66 1985-86 mark recchi: 53 goals, 70 assists, 123 points. club record goals: club record points: reggie leach 61 1975-76 mark recchi 123 1992-93* tim kerr 58 1985-86,86-87 bobby clarke 119 1975-76 tim kerr 54 1983-84,84-85 bobby clarke 116 1974-75 mark recchi 53 1992-93* bill barber 112 1975-76 rick macliesh 50 1972-73 bobby clarke 104 1972-73 bill barber 50 1975-76 rick macliesh 100 1972-73 reggie leach 50 1979-80 *more than 80 games. flyers career years: player points best prior season mark recchi 123 113 (90-91 penguins) rod brind'amour 86 77 (91-92 flyers) garry galley 62 38 (84-85 kings) brent fedyk 59 35 (90-91 red wings) that's all for now... pete clark jr - rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner 
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 here is yet another prediction for them great playoffs! (you may laugh at your convenience!) :) adams division (i hate the ne (name) divisoin!!!) bos vs buf bos in 5 (the b's are hot lately!) mon vs que mon in 7 (this will be the series to watch in the first round!) bos vs mon mon in 7 (this may be a bit biased but i feel the canadiens will (smarten up and start playing they played two months ago ( i.e. bench savard !!!) patrick division pit vs njd pit in 6 (it wont be a complete cake walk... there be a few lumps (in the cake batter!) was vs nyi was in 6 (this will not be an exciting series..imo) pitt vs was pit in 4 (washington will be tired after the nyi) norris division chi vs stl chi in 5 (stl will get a lucky game in) tor vs det tor in 7 (this , like mon vs que, will be another intense (series to watch!) chi vs tor tor in 7 (potvin will be settling in nicely by this point.) smythe division van vs win van in 5 (teemu is great, but vancouver better as a team!) cal vs lak cal in 6 (gretzky is great, but calgary has been on fire lately) ...sorry for the pun... um, no i am not! :) van vs cal van in 6 (this will be a great series! but van has proven they (will not lie down and get beat!) wales conference finals pittsburgh vs montreal montreal in 6 (montreal imho is the only team (that has a chance against pittsburgh.) campbell conference finals vancouver vs toronto toronto in 6 (potvin will be series mvp) stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens (the classic stanley cup final matchup!!) <---also a dream come true! montreal wins the stanley cup in the 7th game 1 - 0 in double overtime. roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp (if that is possible) vincent damphouse nets game winner from a brilliant pass by brian bellows! canadiens star(?) denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter on his thumb which has left him on the disabled list since the first game of the playoffs (awww shucks). ***************************************yee haa!!******************************* *poof* and i wake up :) well that is my predictions...i hope and dream they come true. and you can stop laughing anytime :) die hard habs fan living with 3 die hard leafs fans! 
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 ahl calder cup playoff game(s) played on 4/16 providence 3 springfield 2 (ot) baltimore 4 binghamton 3 utica 3 rochester 2 (ot) cape breton 5 fredericton 2 game(s) scheduled for 4/17 capital district at adirondack providence at springfield baltimore at binghamton utica at rochester moncton vs st john's at halifax series stati (plural of status? :) adirondack leads cdi, 1-0 springfield leads providence, 2-1 baltimore leads binghamton 1-0 utica leads rochester, 1-0 st john's leads moncton, 1-0 cape breton tied w/fredericton, 1-1 full 1993 calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps *=if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1: springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2: springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3: providence 3 springfield 2 gm 4: 4/17 providence at springfield gm 5: 4/22 springfield at providence gm 6: 4/24 providence at springfield * gm 7: 4/27 springfield at providence * cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1: adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2: 4/17 cdi at adirondack gm 3: 4/18 adirondack at cdi gm 4: 4/21 adirondack at cdi gm 5: 4/23 cdi at adirondack * gm 6: 4/24 adirondack at cdi * gm 7: 4/26 cdi at adirondack * baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm 1: baltimore 4 binghamton 3 gm 2: 4/17 baltimore at binghamton gm 3: 4/23 binghamton at baltimore gm 4: 4/24 binghamton at baltimore gm 5: 4/26 baltimore at binghamton * gm 6: 4/28 binghmaton at baltimore * gm 7: 4/30 baltimore at binghamton * utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1: utica 3 rochester 2 (ot) gm 2: 4/17 utica at rochester gm 3: 4/20 rochester at utica gm 4: 4/22 rochester at utica gm 5: 4/24 utica at rochester * gm 6: 4/26 rochester at utica * gm 7: 4/28 utica at rochester * moncton hawks vs st john's maple leafs gm 1: st john's 4 moncton 2 gm 2: 4/17 moncton vs st john's at halifax gm 3: 4/21 st john's at moncton gm 4: 4/23 st john's at moncton gm 5: 4/26 moncton vs st john's at halifax * gm 6: 4/28 st john's at moncton * gm 7: 4/30 moncton vs st john's at halifax * cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1: fredericton 4 cape breton 3 (2ot) gm 2: cape breton 5 fredericton 2 gm 3: 4/20 fredericton at cape breton gm 4: 4/22 fredericton at cape breton gm 5: 4/24 cape breton at fredericton gm 6: 4/26 fredericton at cape breton * gm 7: 4/28 cape breton at fredericton * + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl and ecac contact for rec.sport.hockey go usa hockey! + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + + congrats to the boston bruins, 1992-93 adams division champions + + phoenix suns, 1992-93 pacific division champions + 
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 newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey summary: expires: references: <1qhsfe$80v@access.digex.net> <1993apr15.093354.14844@abo.fi> <1993apr16.131843.24012@walter.cray.com> sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: marquette university - department mscs bradley center in milwaukee is home to the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team. the owner of the admirals (sorry, i can't remember his name) either owns or at least shelled out the majority of the funds to build the bradley center. lloyd pettit married into allen-bradley corp. (ab.com) family and owns the admirals. he donated the bradley center and the new pettit national ice supposedly he was approached by the nhl about an expansion franchise, but turned it down because he thought the franchise fee of $50 million was too this is not the way i have heard it. see, lloyd (as he is affectionately referred to by milwaukeeans and bob uecker) bought the bradley center *to* get the nhl to come here. like i said, i don't know whether this story is true or just a rumor, but if it's true, don't look for an nhl team in milwaukee anytime soon. the admirals aren't going to be forced out of the building and you won't see an nhl club and a minor league club in the same building, especially since the nba's milwaukee bucks play there as well. yeah, the bucks, the milwaukee wave (soccer), the admirals, the marquette warriors, concerts and a bunch of other things... jason hanson | 915 w. wisconsin ave #1010 | (414) 288-2179 marquette university | milwaukee, wi 53233-2373 | ham radio: n9lea/ae -- jason@studsys.mscs.mu.edu ==+== n9lea@n0ary.#nocal.ca.usa.na -- 
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 all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd, they are a very deep team, with two very capable goalies, and excellent forwards and defensemen. shooter in richer, an all around do it all in todd, chef stasny-master of a thousand dishes, power play captain-stevens. take a look at the numbers, or play with them and see for yourselves. yup. i agree with ya. i think devils can beat red wings easily. so i think all those who send in their votes should try all these diffrent teams before voting. i think islanders and quebec are much better then i had ** ___ ____ ____ ____ ____ ** ** ** / / / /___/ /___/ /___/ ** sex is not the answer, sex is the ** ** /___ /___/ /___/ / \_ / / ** question. yes is the answer. ** ** e-mail: cobra@chopin.udel.edu ** ** 
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 could someone post the flyers record with and without eric lindros in the lineup i have a guy that is trying to compare the quebec/flyers trade to the dallas/minnesota trade in the nfl(hershel walker) i just need the stat to back up my point that eric will be one of the next great players 
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 i recently bought a pack of prospect hockey cards which had various players that were coming into the nhl. i got this particular card of a russian named viktor kozlov. it says "many scouts believe he will be the #1 pick in 1993". another guy is quoted as saying "he's as good as mario lemieux". anyone know who this guy is????? -- via dlg pro v0.995 
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 post: 51246 of 51422 newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey organization: university of western ontario nntp-posting-host: sms.business.uwo.ca lines: 165 i'm not defending bob gainey...frankly, i don't care for him all that much. but your dismissal of him as something less than an effective hockey player is tiresome...it has no basis in anything. how many calders did he win? i think it was four (go ooops...that should read selke...forgive me for my insolence. congenially, as always, james david j3david@student.business.uwo.ca j3david@sms.business.uwo.ca (james david) western business school -- london, ontario 
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 |> >you'll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that |> >can't play it on account of availability or financial reasons. |> >hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off. what is this crap? i'm only interested in intelligent discussion. if you can't answer my question, just say so. can anyone else answer the ques.? 
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 did anyone else see this game last night ? just like a playoff game!! lots of hitting...but i was disappointed by the video goal judge... on all replays, joe murphy's goal shouldn't have counted ! it didn't go in net !! and according to the tsn broadcasters, the video goal judge said that he saw the water bottle on top of the cage move so he assumed the puck went in! this is terrible...hope crap like this doesn't occur in the playoffs! the game would have ended in 2-2 tie ! i thought the red light went on...thus, in the review, the presumption would be to find conclusive evidence that the puck did not go in the net...from the replays i say, even from the rear, the evidence wasn't conclusive that the puck was in or out...in my opinion... 
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 i found this press release from trial lawyers for public justice on another system, and thought it would be of interest on campuses where the administration or the athletics department wants to eliminate the women's ice hockey team. women athletes, tlp win sex discrimination ruling: brown university ordered to restore two women's varsity teams to: national desk, sports writer contact: lynette labinger, 401-421-9794, home 401-274-7507, or ray marcaccio, 401-831-8900, both of trial lawyers for public justice washington, april 16 -- the u.s. court of appeals for the first circuit in boston has upheld a u.s. district court order requiring brown university to immediately reinstate its women's gymnastics and volleyball teams to full varsity status. the ruling in cohen et al. v. brown university is the first appeals court decision in the nation applying title ix to intercollegiate athletics. trial lawyers for public justice (tlpj), is the national public interest law firm representing the women athletes. "this ruling makes clear what we have said all along -- if a school wants to eliminate teams before women have their fair share of opportunities to participate, they can only eliminiate men's teams," said tlpj executive director arthur bryant, co-counsel in the case. the class action, filed april, 1992, charged brown with violating title ix of the education amendments of 1972, the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination by all educational institutions receiving federal funds. brown terminated the two women's teams as university-funded sports in may 1991, allowing them to continue to compete against varsity teams if they could raise their own funds for uniforms, travel, coaches, and all other expenses. they had also been denied admission preferences for use in recruiting new members. "this is a major victory for women and the cause of equal rights," said tlpj lead counsel lynette labinger of providence's roney & labinger. "universities across america need to reevaluate their programs quickly. title ix is the law and it's going to be enforced." three similar title ix appeals await decision. colorado state university, indiana university of pennsylvania (iup), and colgate university are asking federal appeals courts to overturn court orders requiring them to reinstate or establish specific women's varsity teams. continuing its cutting-edge title ix activities, tlpj is representing women athletes at iup. in addition to labinger and bryant, tlpj's legal team included: ray marcaccio of blish & cavanagh and amato deluca of mandell, deluca & schwartz in providence; and sandra duggan of philadelphia. the national women's law center, women's sports foundation, and national association for girls and women in sports filed an amicus brief in support of tlpj's appeal. -30- 
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 individual leaders by total points (final standings) note: games played and points per games not accurate !! player team gp g a pts ppg prj pim +/- m.lemieux pit 59 69 91 160 2.71 160 38 53 lafontaine buf 82 53 95 148 1.80 148 63 13 oates bos 83 45 97 142 1.71 142 32 12 yzerman det 83 58 79 137 1.65 137 44 33 turgeon nyi 80 58 74 132 1.65 132 26 -2 selanne win 82 76 56 132 1.61 132 45 6 mogilny buf 75 76 51 127 1.69 127 40 9 gilmour tor 81 32 95 127 1.57 127 96 32 robitaille la 82 63 62 125 1.52 127 100 16 recchi phi 81 53 70 123 1.52 123 95 -2 sundin que 79 47 67 114 1.44 114 96 19 stevens pit 71 55 57 112 1.58 112 169 16 bure van 82 60 50 110 1.34 110 67 37 tocchet pit 79 48 61 109 1.38 109 240 28 roenick chi 82 50 57 107 1.30 107 82 15 janney stl 82 24 82 106 1.29 106 12 1 sakic que 77 48 57 105 1.36 105 40 -4 juneau bos 83 32 70 102 1.23 102 33 21 hull stl 78 54 47 101 1.29 101 41 -21 andreychuk tor 81 55 45 100 1.23 100 56 4 fleury cal 82 34 66 100 1.22 100 88 15 francis pit 83 24 76 100 1.20 100 68 6 housley win 78 18 79 97 1.24 97 52 -13 ciccarelli det 81 41 56 97 1.20 97 81 12 damphousse mon 82 39 58 97 1.18 97 96 5 hawerchuk buf 79 16 80 96 1.22 96 48 -14 shanahan stl 69 51 43 94 1.36 94 168 9 muller mon 79 37 57 94 1.19 94 75 9 jagr pit 80 34 60 94 1.18 94 69 31 modano min 80 33 60 93 1.16 93 81 -6 messier nyr 72 25 66 91 1.26 91 70 -3 sanderson har 79 46 43 89 1.13 89 28 -24 reichel cal 78 40 48 88 1.13 88 54 23 bellows mon 80 40 48 88 1.10 88 42 4 fedorov det 72 34 53 87 1.21 87 72 33 thomas nyi 76 37 50 87 1.14 87 109 0 coffey det 79 12 75 87 1.10 87 77 16 kurri la 81 27 60 87 1.07 88 38 20 bradley tb 78 42 44 86 1.10 86 90 -22 brind'amour phi 78 37 49 86 1.10 86 87 -9 ronning van 77 29 56 85 1.10 85 30 16 bondra was 80 37 48 85 1.06 85 70 3 cassels har 81 21 64 85 1.05 85 57 -15 murphy pit 82 22 62 84 1.02 84 73 42 bourque bos 78 19 63 82 1.05 82 40 38 granato la 79 37 45 82 1.04 83 165 3 verbeek har 81 39 43 82 1.01 82 180 -11 ridley was 81 26 56 82 1.01 82 38 4 duchesne que 81 20 62 82 1.01 82 57 15 c.lemieux nj 75 30 51 81 1.08 81 149 0 suter cal 80 23 58 81 1.01 81 112 -1 lebeau mon 69 31 49 80 1.16 80 20 23 roberts cal 57 38 41 79 1.39 79 172 31 semak nj 80 37 42 79 0.99 79 70 22 hatcher was 80 34 45 79 0.99 79 110 -12 d.hunter was 81 20 59 79 0.98 79 194 2 courtnall min 82 36 43 79 0.96 79 49 -2 brown stl 69 25 53 78 1.13 78 56 -4 ricci que 76 27 51 78 1.03 78 121 9 kisio sj 77 26 52 78 1.01 78 90 -15 craven van 76 25 52 77 1.01 77 30 0 g.courtnall van 82 31 46 77 0.94 77 167 23 nolan que 72 36 40 76 1.06 76 185 -6 king nyi 74 38 38 76 1.03 76 45 -1 amonte nyr 80 33 43 76 0.95 76 47 0 gagner min 82 33 43 76 0.93 76 141 -15 lindros phi 58 41 34 75 1.29 75 143 25 hogue nyi 67 33 42 75 1.12 75 106 6 nieuwendyk cal 77 38 37 75 0.97 75 52 8 pivonka was 66 21 53 74 1.12 74 51 12 borschevsky tor 76 34 40 74 0.97 74 26 32 dahlen min 81 35 39 74 0.91 74 6 -18 richer nj 76 38 35 73 0.96 73 44 0 emerson stl 80 22 51 73 0.91 73 60 -1 nedved van 82 38 35 73 0.89 73 94 18 chelios chi 82 15 58 73 0.89 73 282 13 carson la 84 37 36 73 0.87 74 30 2 zhamnov win 66 25 47 72 1.09 72 58 5 kvartalnov bos 72 30 42 72 1.00 72 14 9 steen win 78 22 50 72 0.92 72 75 -8 linden van 82 33 39 72 0.88 72 60 15 mullen pit 71 33 37 70 0.99 70 12 21 larmer chi 82 35 35 70 0.85 70 48 22 donnelly la 82 29 40 69 0.84 70 45 18 kovalenko que 80 27 41 68 0.85 68 57 10 gartner nyr 81 45 23 68 0.84 68 55 -2 khristich was 61 31 36 67 1.10 67 26 26 sheppard det 70 32 34 66 0.94 66 29 7 garpenlov sj 78 22 44 66 0.85 66 56 -25 iafrate was 81 25 41 66 0.81 66 169 15 gretzky la 43 16 49 65 1.51 67 6 6 zalapski har 80 14 51 65 0.81 65 86 -32 graves nyr 81 36 29 65 0.80 65 148 -4 anderson tor 74 21 43 64 0.86 64 117 19 zelepukin nj 76 23 41 64 0.84 64 66 16 maciver ott 78 17 46 63 0.81 63 80 -42 dineen phi 80 35 28 63 0.79 63 199 11 chiasson det 78 12 50 62 0.79 62 151 15 ysebaert det 79 34 28 62 0.78 62 42 19 galley phi 80 13 49 62 0.78 62 98 14 mceachern pit 83 28 33 61 0.73 61 46 21 nicholls nj 67 13 47 60 0.90 60 80 -13 keane mon 75 15 45 60 0.80 60 93 28 flatley nyi 77 13 47 60 0.78 60 61 3 s.young que 81 30 30 60 0.74 60 20 4 shannon win 82 20 40 60 0.73 60 91 -4 fedyk phi 74 21 38 59 0.80 59 48 14 blake la 76 16 43 59 0.78 60 152 18 olausson win 66 16 41 57 0.86 57 22 -5 makarov cal 70 18 39 57 0.81 57 40 0 smith chi 76 10 47 57 0.75 57 212 13 elynuik was 77 22 35 57 0.74 57 66 2 stevens nj 79 12 45 57 0.72 57 116 16 adams van 51 25 31 56 1.10 56 14 33 tucker tb 76 17 39 56 0.74 56 69 -10 macinnis cal 48 11 43 54 1.13 54 59 15 sutter chi 63 20 34 54 0.86 54 65 9 bodger buf 80 9 45 54 0.68 54 87 14 nemchinov nyr 81 23 31 54 0.67 54 34 15 driver nj 81 14 40 54 0.67 54 64 -9 ruuttu chi 82 17 37 54 0.66 54 134 14 yake har 63 22 31 53 0.84 53 44 5 turcotte nyr 68 25 28 53 0.78 53 40 -2 sandstrom la 37 25 27 52 1.41 53 51 11 malakhov nyi 61 14 38 52 0.85 52 59 14 ward van 68 22 30 52 0.76 52 82 32 otto cal 74 19 33 52 0.70 52 150 2 kontos tb 66 27 24 51 0.77 51 12 -7 leach bos 78 26 25 51 0.65 51 126 -6 poulin har 78 20 31 51 0.65 51 37 -19 tkachuk win 81 28 23 51 0.63 51 199 -14 savard mon 62 16 34 50 0.81 50 90 2 norton nyi 63 12 38 50 0.79 50 45 -6 cullen tor 64 18 32 50 0.78 50 109 -23 cote was 74 21 29 50 0.68 50 34 28 eklund phi 52 11 38 49 0.94 49 16 8 olczyk nyr 68 21 28 49 0.72 49 52 -1 semenov van 74 12 37 49 0.66 49 32 16 davydov win 77 28 21 49 0.64 49 64 -2 miller stl 80 24 25 49 0.61 49 96 0 poulin bos 83 16 33 49 0.59 49 62 30 klima edm 66 32 16 48 0.73 48 98 -15 dionne mon 73 20 28 48 0.66 48 55 6 baker ott 74 19 29 48 0.65 48 52 -21 rucinsky que 76 18 30 48 0.63 48 51 14 weight edm 76 17 31 48 0.63 48 65 5 zhitnik la 76 12 36 48 0.63 49 78 -2 maclean nj 78 24 24 48 0.62 48 100 -7 corson edm 78 16 31 47 0.60 47 207 -16 sweeney buf 79 21 26 47 0.59 47 118 4 simpson edm 60 24 22 46 0.77 46 36 -14 hawgood phi 66 11 35 46 0.70 46 68 -9 johansson was 74 7 38 45 0.61 45 54 0 miller was 81 18 27 45 0.56 45 32 -1 manson edm 81 15 30 45 0.56 45 210 -26 desjardins mon 81 13 32 45 0.56 45 98 19 schneider mon 58 13 31 44 0.76 44 89 9 goulet chi 63 23 21 44 0.70 44 41 10 leclair mon 70 19 25 44 0.63 44 33 11 drake det 71 18 26 44 0.62 44 91 14 lumme van 73 8 36 44 0.60 44 55 29 gaudreau sj 58 23 20 43 0.74 43 18 -17 gill tor 68 11 32 43 0.63 43 64 4 turgeon ott 70 25 18 43 0.61 43 104 -26 probert det 79 14 29 43 0.54 43 292 -9 wood buf 80 18 25 43 0.54 43 77 7 ranheim cal 82 21 22 43 0.52 43 26 -4 zamuner tb 82 15 28 43 0.52 43 72 -25 tinordi min 69 15 27 42 0.61 42 157 -1 paslawski cal 71 18 24 42 0.59 42 12 0 ruzicka bos 60 19 22 41 0.68 41 38 -6 elik edm 60 14 27 41 0.68 41 56 -4 kudelski ott 61 24 17 41 0.67 41 28 -25 mcsorley la 79 15 26 41 0.52 42 393 0 shaw ott 79 7 34 41 0.52 41 34 -47 lidstrom det 83 7 34 41 0.49 41 28 7 stastny nj 60 17 23 40 0.67 40 20 -3 ellett tor 68 6 34 40 0.59 40 46 17 tikkanen nyr 78 16 24 40 0.51 40 94 -22 niedermayer nj 78 11 29 40 0.51 40 47 8 racine det 79 9 31 40 0.51 40 80 8 mcphee min 82 18 22 40 0.49 40 44 -4 millen la 40 23 16 39 0.98 40 42 15 chambers tb 53 10 29 39 0.74 39 34 -23 holik nj 59 20 19 39 0.66 39 72 -2 clark tor 65 17 22 39 0.60 39 187 3 khmylev buf 66 20 19 39 0.59 39 26 6 creighton tb 81 19 20 39 0.48 39 110 -21 krushelnyski tor 82 19 20 39 0.48 39 60 3 kurvers nyi 49 8 30 38 0.78 38 38 8 crossman stl 57 10 28 38 0.67 38 28 -6 kovalev nyr 63 20 18 38 0.60 38 79 -8 craig min 68 15 23 38 0.56 38 106 -10 krupp nyi 79 9 29 38 0.48 38 67 8 momesso van 82 18 20 38 0.46 38 193 11 kamensky que 31 15 22 37 1.19 37 14 13 numminen win 65 7 30 37 0.57 37 33 4 pearson tor 76 23 14 37 0.49 37 196 -2 graham chi 82 20 17 37 0.45 37 141 1 leetch nyr 36 6 30 36 1.00 36 26 2 ciger edm 62 13 23 36 0.58 36 8 -14 beers tb 62 12 24 36 0.58 36 70 -24 reid bos 65 20 16 36 0.55 36 10 12 lapointe que 73 10 26 36 0.49 36 98 4 sjodin min 75 7 29 36 0.48 36 30 -25 weinrich har 76 7 29 36 0.47 36 76 -10 borsato win 65 15 20 35 0.54 35 38 -1 zezel tor 68 12 23 35 0.51 35 24 -1 burr det 79 10 25 35 0.44 35 74 18 donato bos 81 15 20 35 0.43 35 61 2 benning edm 55 10 24 34 0.62 34 152 -1 howe det 59 3 31 34 0.58 34 22 20 guerin nj 63 14 20 34 0.54 34 63 16 hull ott 67 13 21 34 0.51 34 14 -21 d.sweeney bos 83 7 27 34 0.41 34 66 34 nylander har 56 11 22 33 0.59 33 36 -5 beranek phi 63 15 18 33 0.52 33 78 -6 wesley bos 64 8 25 33 0.52 33 47 -2 matteau chi 77 15 18 33 0.43 33 96 6 broten min 80 12 21 33 0.41 33 22 7 leeman mon 50 15 17 32 0.64 32 24 14 dalgarno nyi 55 15 17 32 0.58 32 60 16 mellanby edm 67 15 17 32 0.48 32 147 -4 primeau det 73 15 17 32 0.44 32 152 -6 gilbert chi 75 13 19 32 0.43 32 57 5 mullen nyi 78 18 14 32 0.41 32 28 7 presley buf 78 15 17 32 0.41 32 92 5 leschyshyn que 81 9 23 32 0.40 32 55 22 zubov nyr 46 8 23 31 0.67 31 4 1 mironov tor 57 7 24 31 0.54 31 38 -2 bureau tb 63 10 21 31 0.49 31 111 -12 brisebois mon 68 10 21 31 0.46 31 77 8 heinze bos 72 18 13 31 0.43 31 24 21 smehlik buf 78 4 27 31 0.40 31 59 10 lemieux chi 79 10 21 31 0.39 31 109 4 yushkevich phi 79 5 26 31 0.39 31 71 10 evason sj 83 12 19 31 0.37 31 132 -33 mcinnis nyi 56 10 20 30 0.54 30 24 7 noonan chi 61 16 14 30 0.49 30 82 1 gallant det 66 10 20 30 0.45 30 186 20 kennedy det 67 19 11 30 0.45 30 46 -1 hough que 77 8 22 30 0.39 30 69 -11 gusarov que 78 8 22 30 0.38 30 57 16 mactavish edm 80 10 20 30 0.38 30 110 -15 buchberger edm 81 12 18 30 0.37 30 133 -24 janssens har 73 12 17 29 0.40 29 233 -12 u.samuelson pit 76 3 26 29 0.38 29 247 37 sydor la 78 6 23 29 0.37 29 59 0 duchesne min 82 16 13 29 0.35 29 30 6 falloon sj 41 14 14 28 0.68 28 12 -25 sandlak van 59 10 18 28 0.47 28 122 2 carpenter was 65 11 17 28 0.43 28 63 -16 kron har 42 14 13 27 0.64 27 18 7 ferraro nyi 43 14 13 27 0.63 27 38 -5 kravchuk edm 55 10 17 27 0.49 27 32 3 plavsic van 56 6 21 27 0.48 27 51 27 ron sutter stl 59 12 15 27 0.46 27 99 -11 cole tb 65 12 15 27 0.42 27 21 -4 odgers sj 65 12 15 27 0.42 27 251 -25 fitzgerald nyi 74 9 18 27 0.36 27 32 -1 fetisov nj 74 4 23 27 0.36 27 158 7 korolev stl 74 4 23 27 0.36 27 20 -1 kypreos har 75 17 10 27 0.36 27 325 -5 andersson tb 75 16 11 27 0.36 27 14 -14 huddy la 80 2 25 27 0.34 27 62 20 rich sutter stl 82 13 14 27 0.33 27 100 -6 slegr van 40 4 22 26 0.65 26 109 16 svoboda buf 40 2 24 26 0.65 26 59 3 patrick nyr 60 5 21 26 0.43 26 61 1 jones was 68 12 14 26 0.38 26 124 16 lamb ott 69 7 19 26 0.38 26 62 -40 osborne tor 75 12 14 26 0.35 26 87 -7 may buf 80 13 13 26 0.33 26 238 3 eagles win 82 8 18 26 0.32 26 131 -1 brunet mon 45 10 15 25 0.56 25 19 13 t.green nyi 58 7 18 25 0.43 25 43 6 stern cal 69 10 15 25 0.36 25 207 2 lidster van 71 6 19 25 0.35 25 36 9 haller mon 72 11 14 25 0.35 25 117 8 tippett pit 73 6 19 25 0.34 25 56 7 peluso ott 79 15 10 25 0.32 25 318 -32 dimaio tb 54 9 15 24 0.44 24 62 0 brady ott 55 7 17 24 0.44 24 57 -25 freer ott 61 10 14 24 0.39 24 39 -32 cavallini que 66 9 15 24 0.36 24 34 10 lachance nyi 74 7 17 24 0.32 24 67 -2 shaw bos 76 10 14 24 0.32 24 108 9 berg tor 78 13 11 24 0.31 24 103 2 ozolinsh sj 37 7 16 23 0.62 23 40 -9 klatt min 45 4 19 23 0.51 23 38 6 loach la 53 10 13 23 0.43 23 27 3 todd edm 55 9 14 23 0.42 23 26 -9 ashton cal 56 10 13 23 0.41 23 52 8 mcbain ott 57 7 16 23 0.40 23 43 -35 gelinas edm 63 11 12 23 0.37 23 30 2 bautin win 69 5 18 23 0.33 23 92 -2 krygier was 74 11 12 23 0.31 23 60 -14 johnson min 79 3 20 23 0.29 23 105 9 acton phi 80 8 15 23 0.29 23 51 -11 barnes win 37 12 10 22 0.59 22 10 -3 huffman que 52 4 18 22 0.42 22 54 0 sutton buf 61 8 14 22 0.36 22 30 0 mckay nj 71 11 11 22 0.31 22 199 1 konstantinov det 81 5 17 22 0.27 22 135 23 pellerin nj 44 10 11 21 0.48 21 37 -1 sillinger det 51 4 17 21 0.41 21 16 0 volek nyi 56 8 13 21 0.38 21 34 -1 lindberg cal 61 9 12 21 0.34 21 18 -4 evans phi 65 8 13 21 0.32 21 70 -9 hamrlik tb 65 6 15 21 0.32 21 65 -20 gilchrist min 68 10 11 21 0.31 21 49 -12 churla min 73 5 16 21 0.29 21 286 -8 kasparaitis nyi 77 4 17 21 0.27 21 166 14 loney pit 81 5 16 21 0.26 21 99 3 courtenay sj 38 7 13 20 0.53 20 10 -15 wilson sj 42 3 17 20 0.48 20 40 -28 t.pederson sj 43 7 13 20 0.47 20 31 -14 lomakin phi 48 8 12 20 0.42 20 34 14 druce win 48 6 14 20 0.42 20 37 -5 hannan buf 53 5 15 20 0.38 20 41 10 corriveau har 54 8 12 20 0.37 20 12 -20 bourque nyr 54 6 14 20 0.37 20 39 -9 hiller det 60 8 12 20 0.33 20 109 6 maltais tb 61 7 13 20 0.33 20 35 -19 burt har 62 6 14 20 0.32 20 116 -14 johansson cal 75 4 16 20 0.27 20 60 11 marchment chi 76 5 15 20 0.26 20 309 13 diduck van 78 6 14 20 0.26 20 163 29 podein edm 38 13 6 19 0.50 19 25 -1 berehowsky tor 40 4 15 19 0.48 19 61 1 babych van 41 3 16 19 0.46 19 42 4 audette buf 42 12 7 19 0.45 19 51 -5 chorske nj 50 7 12 19 0.38 19 25 -1 bassen stl 51 9 10 19 0.37 19 59 -4 hatcher min 65 4 15 19 0.29 19 176 -26 kucera chi 70 5 14 19 0.27 19 59 7 wilson stl 76 8 11 19 0.25 19 44 -7 macoun tor 76 4 15 19 0.25 19 55 3 king win 77 8 11 19 0.25 19 203 4 beukeboom nyr 79 2 17 19 0.24 19 153 10 carkner phi 80 3 16 19 0.24 19 146 16 neely bos 12 11 7 18 1.50 18 25 4 foligno tor 54 13 5 18 0.33 18 84 1 christian chi 60 4 14 18 0.30 18 12 6 errey buf 61 9 9 18 0.30 18 80 1 gavin min 63 10 8 18 0.29 18 59 -4 mcllwain tor 65 14 4 18 0.28 18 30 -17 daigneault mon 65 8 10 18 0.28 18 57 24 ramage mon 74 5 13 18 0.24 18 146 -24 smith edm 76 4 14 18 0.24 18 30 -11 paek pit 76 3 15 18 0.24 18 64 15 murphy chi 17 7 10 17 1.00 17 18 -4 dipietro mon 27 4 13 17 0.63 17 14 10 m.pederson sj 40 10 7 17 0.43 17 24 -20 nattress phi 44 7 10 17 0.39 17 29 1 carbonneau mon 59 4 13 17 0.29 17 20 -8 yawney cal 61 1 16 17 0.28 17 65 5 kasatonov nj 63 3 14 17 0.27 17 55 7 roberts bos 64 5 12 17 0.27 17 103 22 macdermid was 72 9 8 17 0.24 17 80 -13 odjick van 74 4 13 17 0.23 17 360 4 conacher la 79 9 8 17 0.22 17 20 -15 cavallini was 79 6 11 17 0.22 17 56 4 erickson win 39 4 12 16 0.41 16 12 2 straka pit 41 3 13 16 0.39 16 29 3 erixon nyr 42 5 11 16 0.38 16 10 13 murphy bos 48 5 11 16 0.33 16 60 -14 ledyard buf 48 2 14 16 0.33 16 43 0 butsayev phi 49 2 14 16 0.33 16 57 2 ulanov win 54 2 14 16 0.30 16 122 6 carter sj 55 7 9 16 0.29 16 81 -25 glynn edm 62 4 12 16 0.26 16 58 -12 boschman ott 68 9 7 16 0.24 16 95 -27 rumble ott 68 3 13 16 0.24 16 61 -26 stanton pit 76 4 12 16 0.21 16 97 8 murzyn van 77 5 11 16 0.21 16 179 36 musil cal 78 6 10 16 0.21 16 129 26 may was 80 6 10 16 0.20 16 266 0 foote que 80 4 12 16 0.20 16 168 3 odelein mon 81 2 14 16 0.20 16 201 35 andersson nyr 29 4 11 15 0.52 15 16 7 archibald ott 42 9 6 15 0.36 15 32 -15 taylor la 46 6 9 15 0.33 15 49 2 lowe nyr 47 3 12 15 0.32 15 58 -1 domi win 59 5 10 15 0.25 15 340 1 mccrimmon det 60 1 14 15 0.25 15 71 21 konroyd det 65 3 12 15 0.23 15 67 -15 zombo stl 69 0 15 15 0.22 15 78 -4 butcher stl 82 5 10 15 0.18 15 209 0 zmolek sj 83 5 10 15 0.18 15 229 -51 fergus van 36 5 9 14 0.39 14 20 1 skrudland cal 38 7 7 14 0.37 14 65 4 pantaleyev bos 39 8 6 14 0.36 14 12 -6 pearson que 41 13 1 14 0.34 14 95 3 c.j.young bos 43 7 7 14 0.33 14 32 -6 smail ott 51 4 10 14 0.27 14 51 -34 hardy la 53 1 13 14 0.26 14 89 -1 broten nyr 58 5 9 14 0.24 14 48 -6 barr nj 60 6 8 14 0.23 14 44 3 taglianetti pit 71 2 12 14 0.20 14 182 15 ewen mon 74 5 9 14 0.19 14 191 7 bergevin tb 76 2 12 14 0.18 14 66 -16 finn que 79 5 9 14 0.18 14 160 -4 lefebvre tor 79 2 12 14 0.18 14 90 6 m.sullivan sj 81 6 8 14 0.17 14 30 -42 ojanen nj 31 4 9 13 0.42 13 14 -2 reekie tb 42 2 11 13 0.31 13 69 2 lindsay que 44 4 9 13 0.30 13 16 0 ramsey pit 44 3 10 13 0.30 13 28 16 valk van 46 6 7 13 0.28 13 73 5 jelinek ott 49 7 6 13 0.27 13 52 -21 needham pit 55 8 5 13 0.24 13 24 -2 lowry stl 56 5 8 13 0.23 13 101 -18 rychel la 68 6 7 13 0.19 13 293 -14 mcgill phi 70 3 10 13 0.19 13 221 7 stapleton pit 78 4 9 13 0.17 13 10 -8 richardson edm 80 3 10 13 0.16 13 140 -18 rouse tor 80 3 10 13 0.16 13 128 8 daneyko nj 82 2 11 13 0.16 13 222 4 ogrodnick det 18 6 6 12 0.67 12 2 -3 s. king nyr 24 7 5 12 0.50 12 16 4 joseph edm 31 2 10 12 0.39 12 46 -6 petit cal 34 3 9 12 0.35 12 50 -6 williams sj 39 1 11 12 0.31 12 49 -25 b.smith min 43 5 7 12 0.28 12 8 -6 bozon stl 52 6 6 12 0.23 12 55 -1 ronan mon 53 5 7 12 0.23 12 20 6 dirk van 67 4 8 12 0.18 12 146 22 hunter van 72 5 7 12 0.17 12 182 -5 luongo ott 74 3 9 12 0.16 12 68 -42 berube cal 75 4 8 12 0.16 12 209 -6 wilson cal 22 4 7 11 0.50 11 8 10 vujtek edm 28 1 10 11 0.39 11 8 -1 konowalchuk was 36 4 7 11 0.31 11 16 4 snuggerud phi 39 4 7 11 0.28 11 14 -3 murray chi 49 4 7 11 0.22 11 57 -14 donnelly buf 58 3 8 11 0.19 11 219 6 dahl cal 59 2 9 11 0.19 11 52 9 kasper tb 66 4 7 11 0.17 11 20 -16 more sj 73 5 6 11 0.15 11 179 -35 quintal stl 73 1 10 11 0.15 11 100 -6 ludwig min 76 1 10 11 0.14 11 149 0 muni chi 79 0 11 11 0.14 11 73 -15 lazaro ott 26 6 4 10 0.38 10 16 -8 norwood stl 32 3 7 10 0.31 10 63 -5 featherstone bos 34 5 5 10 0.29 10 102 6 murphy ott 42 3 7 10 0.24 10 28 -18 debrusk edm 49 8 2 10 0.20 10 199 -14 wells nyr 50 1 9 10 0.20 10 105 -2 kimble bos 54 7 3 10 0.19 10 177 4 corkum buf 67 6 4 10 0.15 10 38 -2 dahlquist cal 73 3 7 10 0.14 10 66 -2 gordijuk buf 16 3 6 9 0.56 9 0 4 hurlbut nyr 23 1 8 9 0.39 9 16 4 boivin phi 30 5 4 9 0.30 9 76 -5 moller buf 35 2 7 9 0.26 9 83 6 cunneyworth har 36 5 4 9 0.25 9 61 -1 petrovicky har 42 3 6 9 0.21 9 45 -10 mcrae stl 45 3 6 9 0.20 9 167 -13 cirella nyr 52 3 6 9 0.17 9 83 4 maley sj 55 2 7 9 0.16 9 143 -27 daniels pit 57 5 4 9 0.16 9 14 -6 hughes bos 61 5 4 9 0.15 9 191 -5 lalor win 62 1 8 9 0.15 9 74 -13 k.samuelson pit 63 3 6 9 0.14 9 106 25 mckenzie har 63 3 6 9 0.14 9 202 -9 kocur nyr 64 3 6 9 0.14 9 129 -9 loewen ott 77 4 5 9 0.12 9 145 -25 houlder buf 13 3 5 8 0.62 8 6 7 t.sweeney bos 14 1 7 8 0.57 8 6 1 douris bos 18 4 4 8 0.44 8 4 5 keczmer har 21 4 4 8 0.38 8 28 -2 greig har 22 1 7 8 0.36 8 27 -11 day har 24 1 7 8 0.33 8 47 -8 werenka edm 27 5 3 8 0.30 8 24 1 tatarinov que 28 2 6 8 0.29 8 28 6 mcdonough sj 30 6 2 8 0.27 8 6 -21 hill mon 30 2 6 8 0.27 8 47 -5 k.brown chi 31 2 6 8 0.26 8 37 4 loiselle nyi 38 5 3 8 0.21 8 84 -4 hudson edm 39 1 7 8 0.21 8 44 -8 hedican stl 40 0 8 8 0.20 8 30 -4 roberge mon 48 4 4 8 0.17 8 140 3 ahola sj 49 3 5 8 0.16 8 36 -11 mcintyre nyr 57 3 5 8 0.14 8 82 -14 anderson was 57 2 6 8 0.14 8 18 -1 houda har 57 2 6 8 0.14 8 163 -21 hartman tb 58 4 4 8 0.14 8 154 -7 wilkinson sj 58 1 7 8 0.14 8 96 -48 hammond ott 61 4 4 8 0.13 8 104 -40 barrasso pit 62 0 8 8 0.13 8 20 0 kennedy win 77 1 7 8 0.10 8 105 -4 eastwood tor 12 1 6 7 0.58 7 21 -2 quintin sj 14 2 5 7 0.50 7 4 -4 r.brown chi 15 1 6 7 0.47 33 33 6 godynyuk cal 26 3 4 7 0.27 7 17 7 rice edm 26 2 5 7 0.27 7 13 -5 murray bos 27 3 4 7 0.26 7 8 -6 wiemer bos 27 1 6 7 0.26 7 48 -1 berezan sj 28 3 4 7 0.25 7 28 -18 marois nyi 28 2 5 7 0.25 7 35 -3 mallette nj 34 4 3 7 0.21 7 56 3 hynes phi 36 3 4 7 0.19 7 16 -3 gilhen tb 42 3 4 7 0.17 7 12 -13 chase stl 49 2 5 7 0.14 7 204 -9 vukota nyi 71 2 5 7 0.10 7 199 4 zettler sj 79 0 7 7 0.09 7 150 -48 lafreniere tb 9 3 3 6 0.67 6 4 -5 propp min 15 3 3 6 0.40 6 0 -8 belanger mon 18 4 2 6 0.33 6 4 1 kerr har 22 0 6 6 0.27 6 7 -11 shuchuk la 23 2 4 6 0.26 6 14 4 bergland tb 25 3 3 6 0.24 6 11 -9 vaske nyi 25 1 5 6 0.24 6 30 6 carney buf 29 2 4 6 0.21 6 51 2 dinnen ott 31 2 4 6 0.19 6 30 -19 albelin nj 34 1 5 6 0.18 6 14 -1 patterson buf 35 4 2 6 0.17 6 18 -2 ladouceur har 59 2 4 6 0.10 6 107 -17 russell chi 66 2 4 6 0.09 6 151 5 lang la 11 0 5 5 0.45 5 2 -3 lipuma tb 13 0 5 5 0.38 5 32 1 brown nj 15 0 5 5 0.33 5 2 3 kozlov det 16 4 1 5 0.31 5 14 -1 savage was 16 2 3 5 0.31 5 12 -4 bruce sj 17 2 3 5 0.29 5 33 -14 byers sj 18 4 1 5 0.28 5 122 -2 conroy phi 18 3 2 5 0.28 5 17 0 van allen edm 21 1 4 5 0.24 5 6 -2 richer bos 23 1 4 5 0.22 5 18 -9 wolanin que 23 1 4 5 0.22 5 49 8 leach har 24 3 2 5 0.21 5 4 -7 prokhorov stl 26 4 1 5 0.19 5 15 -4 kruse cal 26 2 3 5 0.19 5 41 3 richter nyr 35 0 5 5 0.14 5 2 0 bawa sj 41 5 0 5 0.12 5 47 -24 osiecki min 42 1 4 5 0.12 5 19 -20 matvichuk min 51 2 3 5 0.10 5 26 -7 pedersen har 58 1 4 5 0.09 5 60 2 jennings pit 58 0 5 5 0.09 5 65 7 essensa win 66 0 5 5 0.08 5 2 0 ray buf 68 3 2 5 0.07 5 211 -3 mckim bos 7 1 3 4 0.57 4 0 2 faust phi 8 2 2 4 0.50 4 4 3 smolinski bos 8 1 3 4 0.50 4 0 3 fogarty pit 12 0 4 4 0.33 4 4 -3 hervey tb 15 0 4 4 0.27 4 36 -4 picard sj 25 4 0 4 0.16 4 24 -17 reese cal 25 0 4 4 0.16 4 4 0 romaniuk win 28 3 1 4 0.14 4 22 0 thompson la 28 0 4 4 0.14 4 79 -3 pilon nyi 41 1 3 4 0.10 4 146 -3 giles stl 48 0 4 4 0.08 4 40 -2 baron stl 53 2 2 4 0.08 4 59 -5 cheveldae det 66 0 4 4 0.06 4 4 0 hankinson nj 4 2 1 3 0.75 3 9 2 mcdougall edm 4 2 1 3 0.75 3 4 2 felsner stl 4 0 3 3 0.75 3 0 0 ruff tb 8 2 1 3 0.38 3 8 -1 petrov mon 9 2 1 3 0.33 3 10 2 black min 10 2 1 3 0.30 3 4 0 morris sj 14 0 3 3 0.21 3 6 -11 walter van 23 3 0 3 0.13 3 8 -2 hrivnak win 29 0 3 3 0.10 3 0 0 wakaluk min 29 0 3 3 0.10 3 20 0 dufresne mon 30 1 2 3 0.10 3 30 0 cronin phi 34 2 1 3 0.09 3 37 0 smyth cal 34 1 2 3 0.09 3 95 3 hrudey la 48 0 3 3 0.06 3 8 0 marsh ott 57 0 3 3 0.05 3 30 -25 casey min 58 0 3 3 0.05 3 28 0 berry min 61 0 3 3 0.05 3 107 4 ranford edm 66 0 3 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1 0.03 1 4 0 fitzpatrick nyi 37 0 1 1 0.03 1 2 0 billington nj 40 0 1 1 0.03 1 8 0 potvin tor 46 0 1 1 0.02 1 4 0 vanbiesbrouk nyr 48 0 1 1 0.02 1 18 0 mclean van 54 0 1 1 0.02 1 16 0 moog bos 54 0 1 1 0.02 1 14 0 beaupre was 57 0 1 1 0.02 1 20 0 baumgartner tor 61 1 0 1 0.02 1 155 -11 bales bos 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 burridge was 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 chabot mon 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 d'alessio har 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 littman tb 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 parks nyi 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 semchuk la 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 st. amour ott 1 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 cimellaro ott 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 -2 cote tb 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 -1 marcinyshyn nyr 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 -1 o'neill win 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 raglan tb 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 williams la 2 0 0 0 0.00 0 10 0 charron mon 3 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 ciavaglia buf 3 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 cloutier que 3 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 hamr ott 3 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 -3 wamsley tor 3 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 hirsch nyr 4 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 o'connor nj 7 0 0 0 0.00 0 9 -4 j.messier nyr 9 0 0 0 0.00 0 6 0 knickle la 10 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 chapdelaine la 13 0 0 0 0.00 0 12 -6 shannon tor 15 0 0 0 0.00 0 11 -2 agnew har 16 0 0 0 0.00 0 68 3 waite chi 20 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 langway was 21 0 0 0 0.00 0 20 -13 riendeau det 22 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 hebert stl 23 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 tabaracci was 23 0 0 0 0.00 0 12 0 tugnutt edm 25 0 0 0 0.00 0 2 0 caufield pit 26 0 0 0 0.00 0 60 -1 hasek buf 27 0 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 pietrangelo har 30 0 0 0 0.00 0 4 0 irbe sj 35 0 0 0 0.00 0 10 0 terreri nj 47 0 0 0 0.00 0 6 0 fuhr buf 56 0 0 0 0.00 0 10 0 sidorkiewicz ott 63 0 0 0 0.00 0 8 0 - maurice richard - 
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 un, you better add at least another plus to the pederson for neely trade, the bruins also received a number 1 round draft pick, didn't play great this year but wesley's still a decent defenseman.... and the bruins got pederson back eventually anyway..... pat ellis p.s. go bruins go umaine black bears 42-1-2 number 1...... hockey east regulars season champions..... hockey east tournament champions>...... paul kariya, hobey baker award winner....... ncaa div. 1 hockey tournament champions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! m-a-i-n-e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee! 
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 sorry roger but mr basketbal should what he really means here. ie he should have said that he hopes "fans in the _american_ southeast can follow the names of the divisions." the odds that these people other than those who are displaced "notherners" (who are probably already fans) is on the order of the proverbial snowball's in hell. i am not at all clear about what you are trying to say here. if you asked somone, who had never heard of hockey before, if la played in the smythe division what do you think that the response would be? what if you asked this person if la played in the west division? the naming of divisions after long-dead entrepreneurs is unnecessary i am glad that the names are being changed for another reason. the names patrick, smythe, norris, adams and campbell are all the names of so-called "builders" of the game. this is the same type of thinking that put stein in the hall of fame. this is absolute nonsense. the real builders of the game are richard, morenz, howe, conacher, orr, etc. if you are going to name the divisions after people at least name the divisions after people who deserve it. yes these people deserve recognigtion as hockey greats but the old division names took into account messers patrick, norris, smythe and the prince who had alot more to do with the origins of the league than people who came into an already established situation. it is much easier to be an element of change hardly. the "established" situation existed prior to smythe, et al. the stanley cup was a challenge trophy up for grabs to whatever team could successfully mount the challenge. what our dear founders did was formalize the challenge. they created a closed league, an oligop- olistic professional system, in the interests of making money. wheth- er or not that system has contributed to better hockey is certainly debatable. we are, however, stuck with their invention and that de- bate is academic. the point to be made, however, is that people played hockey and people enjoyed watching hockey long before smythe and his pals showed up. or a standout in an existing situation than it is to be someone who creates a new situation. if you want to honor players like bobby orr than i'm sure you can find a reason to name a torphy after him such as best offensive what's wrong with best defenceman, period? was there ever a better defenceman? was there ever a better player? and if you think that bruce norris' contribution was somehow more significant than bobby orr's then, in the interests of education, why don't you take a poll and find out how many people know who norris was? but you don't have to, do you? no i can't for the reasons i gave above. i'm in the same boat as jason and i grew up with the current divisonal names and learned them when i was about 10 years old and who played in what division. if a 10 year old _american_ can learn this why would it be hard for an "occasional fan" to pick up on who plays in what division? so you don't feel that you should have to make the effort to remember that vancouver plays in the west division? (or pacific, or whatever other intuitively understandable moniker is chosen.) oh. now i see your point. your intention has been to alert us to the erosion of purity. i'll bet you like hockey because it's, for the most part, played by whites of european extraction. probably not. in my case i'm sure of this. what you said would be like me saying that all maple leafs fans are as biased, closed minded, ignorant, and of course you neatly deleted jason's jingoistic rant about the game losing its "canadianization". quoting me out of context does more to erode your credibility than it does mine. my position is clearly progressive and is anything but "biased, closed minded, ig- norant". arrogant, i will grant you. arrogant, and moronic as you. just because someone a) doesn't like what mr basketball is doing, b) voices their opinion. and c) likes the senerio of you going to antartica does not mean that you have the right to insult them. nice try john. but for a flame to be truly effective you have to display at least enough intelligence to earn your target's cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
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 thanks for the 41 people who have entered this year's team pool. here is a summary of what was picked: 1st round: pittsburgh 41, new jersey 0 chicago 40, st. louis 1 boston 40, buffalo 1 vancouver 30, winnipeg 11 calgary 27, los angeles 14 detroit 26, toronto 15 washington 24, new york islanders 15 (2 people picked new jersey) quebec 23, montreal 18 2nd round: pittsburgh 38, washington 2, new york islanders 1 boston 31, quebec 6, montreal 4 detroit 21, chicago 15, toronto 5 calgary 18, vancouver 14, los angeles 8, winnipeg 1 3rd round: pittsburgh 31, boston 7, quebec 2, washington 1 detroit 18, chicago 11, toronto 5, vancouver 3, calgary 2, los angeles 2 finals: pittsburgh 26, boston 5, detroit 4, toronto 2, quebec 2, los angeles 1, chicago good luck to all! * mike burger * my canada includes, quebec, ontario, * * mmb@lamar.colostate.edu * the maritimes, the prairies, and florida * * a beginning computing ta stud * four months a year. * * over 500 students served * --royal canadian air farce * * university of michigan - 1990 -- colorado state university - 199? * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53607">
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 does anyone out there have the shorthanded goal totals of the nhl players for this season? we're trying to finish our rotisserie stats and need shg to make it complete. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53609">
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 a fine 26 year history came to a close tonight, as the minnesota north stars, or norm's stars (whichever you prefer) lost to the red wings by a score of 5-3. the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen, who netted two including the final one in franchise history, with less than a minute to yes, it's a shame that the nhl lost a fine team in one of the best hockey markets in the country. being a north stars fan, it is sad to see all of the tradition of the last 26 years get thrown into oblivion at the hands of a truly crappy owner. hopefully the nhl will install an expansion franchise in the twin cities within the next five years. even if this is the case, a lot has been lost in the north stars move... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53610">
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 mark messier, n. y. rangers messier was not invited due to his nagging injuries. while the press made an issue of it, and attempted to link it to the rangers' internal political woes, mike keenan repeated that to messier personally during the msg press conference. it makes sense ... messier would probably have not declined the invitation if it were made for publicity ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53616">
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 the subject line says it all. is it terribly difficult to get tickets to penguins games, especially now that they are in the playoffs? would it be easy to find scalpers outside of the igloo selling tickets? dean money dmoney@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu here is my traditional experience with tickets, playoffs and otherwise, at the civic arena. scalping is illegal but nonetheless present outside the arena. best strategy, given that you don't mind missing the anthem (which is ok if b.e. taylor decides to come back ever again :) ) is to wait until 7:40 or 7:45, when the game is rolling; the scalpers are at this point desperate to sell and will reduce to near or at face value to get rid of their tickets. playoffs are a little different in that good seats will go early on; what's left at 7:45 may be nosebleed material (d, e sections). others can add on their opinions as well. kevin l. stamber purdue university penguins 6 devils 3 -- pens lead series 1 game to none 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53619">
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 i got back from my trip to discover that my email spool file got blown away. i am missing all the playoff pool entries sent between april 5 and april 17. it looks like about 200 entries got lost. *sigh*. therefore, i would like to ask each person that sent me a team to resend it asap. i am relying on your honesty to not make changes after the deadline today. thanks in advance, and i apologize for the problem. andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53622">
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 the blues scored two power-play goals in 17 seconds in the third period and the beat the chicago blackhawks 4-3 sunday afternoon at chicago stadium. brendan shanahan tied the game 3-3 and brett hull scored the game winner 17 seconds later. jeff brown and denny felsner scored the other blues goals. brian noonan had the hat trick for the hawks, who also had some very good goaltending from ed belfour. blues goalie curtis joseph was solid down the stretch to preserve the blues lead. the hawks came out strong in the first period, outshooting the blues 6-1 and taking a 1-0 lead on noonan's first goal. right after an interference penalty on rick zombo had expired, keith brown intercepted a clearing attempt at the blue line and passed the puck to steve larmer in the right circle. larmer fired a long slap shot, and noonan deflected the puck between joseph's pads. after the goal, the blues picked up the intensity and went on to outshoot the hawks 10-9 in the first period. jeff brown tied the game 1-1 at 3:12 of the second. nelson emerson broke in on the left side, got by craig muni and pushed the puck across the slot. belfour came out to play the pass and shoveled it to the right boards, where brown collected it and slapped it in before belfour could get back to the goal. two minutes later on a hawks power play, belfour stopped rich sutter on a short-handed break-in. chris chelios picked up the puck and passed it to jeremy roenick who carried it on right wing and found an open noonan with a nice pass across the slot. noonan fired it past joseph at 5:30 for the 2-1 lead. noonan completed his hat trick 3:11 later to increase the hawks' lead to 3-1. stephane matteau made a nice pass from the right boards to noonan who beat stephane quintal by driving to the net. joseph had no chance as noonan deflected the puck in the net. denny felsner reduced the blues deficit to 3-1 at 12:49 after picking up the rebound of basil mcrae's slap shot from the slot. janney set up mcrae for the shot, and the puck sailed wide of the net and bounced off the end boards to felsner. felsner sticked the rebound into the partially open net. the blues outshot the hawks 10-5 in the second period. with the blackhawks leading 3-2 at 9:56 of the third, stephane matteau picked up a high sticking penalty. just 53 seconds into the power play, steve smith was called for slashing, giving the blues a 5-on-3 advantage for 1:07. the blues didn't waste time as brendan shanahan scored just 23 seconds into the two-man advantage to tie the game 3-3. janney found hull in the slot, and hull fired a rocket at belfour. jeff brown collected the rebound and passed it to shanahan in the left circle. shanahan beat belfour from a sharp just 17 seconds later, hull scored the game winner for the blues. nelson emerson broke in on right wing, carried the puck behind the net along with two hawks defensemen. emerson made a nice pass to an unchecked hull in the slot, and hull beat belfour to put the blues up 4-3. the hawks had several chances to tie the game in the final minutes, but joseph made some brilliant saves to prevent the hawks from scoring. he stopped troy murray point blank from just right of the crease with 2:30 left in the game. the blues killed off a late hawks power play, with rich sutter clearing the puck with his hand as it was trickling along the goal line. the blues held on to win the game. the hawks oushot the blues 13-7 in the third period, totaling 27 shots on goal for each team. the blues special teams were excellent in the game. the blues killed 6 of 7 hawks power plays, and scored twice on on four power play chances. the blues ranked among the best special teams in the league. they rank 2nd in penalty killing and 3rd on the power play. the game was carried live on abc, the first time an nhl game other than an all-star game has been shown on network television since may 24, 1980, when cbs carried game 6 of the stanley cup finals. the best-of-seven series continues wednesday in chicago and friday and sunday in st. louis. box score blues 4, blackhawks 3 blues 0 2 2 -- 4 chicago 1 2 0 -- 3 first period chi -- noonan 1 (larmer, k.brown), 8:17. penalties -- shanahan, stl (holding), 2:28; zombo, stl (interference), 6:00; murphy, chi (high-sticking), 11:30; grimson, chi (boarding), 14:39; zombo, stl (holding), 18:46. second period stl -- brown 1 (shanahan, emerson), 3:12. chi -- (ppg) noonan 2 (roenick, chelios), 5:40. chi -- noonan 3 (matteau, sutter), 8:51. stl -- felsner 1 (mcrae, janney), 12:49. penalties -- baron, stl (interference), 4:33; wilson, stl (tripping), 9:31. third period stl -- (ppg) shanahan 1 (j.brown, hull), 11:12. stl -- (ppg) hull 1 (emerson, j.brown), 11:29. penalties -- shanahan, stl (roughing), 1:54; matteau, chi (high-sticking), 9:56; smith, chi (slashing), 10:49; baron, stl (roughing), 14:23. shots on goal blues 10 10 7 -- 27 chicago 9 5 13 -- 27 power-play opportunities -- st. louis 2 of 4; chicago 1 of 7. goaltenders -- st. louis, joseph, 1-0-0 (27 shots-24 saves). chicago, belfour, 0-1-0 (27-23). referee -- kerry fraser. linesmen -- kevin collins, brian murphy. a -- 16,199. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53623">
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 i might not be great in math, but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record??? man...retard!!!!!! can't believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker...... well i don't see any smileys here. i am trying to figure out if the poster is a dog or a wordprocessor. couldn't be neither. both are smarter than "i might not be great in math" cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53624">
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 gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) says: locked away, waiting for the tape-delay to start ... i think this guy is going to be just a little bit disappointed. lemieux two, tocchet, mullen, tippett, and jagr. i buzzed my friend because i forgot who had scored mullen's goal. i said, "who scored? lemieux two, tocchet, tippett, jagr." the funny part was i said the "jagr" part non-chalantly as he was in the process of scoring while i was asking this question!!! :-) all in all abc's coverage wasn't bad. on a scale of 1-10, i give it about an 8. how were the games in the chi/st. louis/la area??? it's nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs on network television ... too bad that their playoff game has been preempted on wabc-am for an early-season yankees baseball game! that's stupid!!! i'd complain to the television network! if i were to even see a pirates game on instead of a penguins game at this time of the year, i and many other pittsburghers would surely raise hell!!! it's a 12-2 win by the texas rangers ... and they're delaying the tape-delay by another half-hour for the ballgame "highlights"!!! texas is off to a good start, they may pull it out this year. whoops! that belongs in rec.sport.baseball!!! ** robbie po ** pgh penguins!!! "we do what comes naturally! patrick division semi's '91 stanley cup you see now, wait for the penguins 6, devils 3 '92 champions possibility, don't you see a penguins lead, 1-0 12 straight wins! strong resemblance..."-dg '89 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53626">
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 i hear daigle will eb the first pick next year. what is the word on kariya??? anybody ever seen him play on tv???? is he also entering the draft??? 
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 the mission to revive hockey at umass is now underway. at the 4 pm saturday afternoon press conference held at the new mullins center arena - former boston college asst. coach joe mallen was awarded the 4 year, $85,000/year contract as head coach for the umass minutemen. mallen was the third viable pick for the position, right behind jeff jackson (lake superior) and second behind shawn walsh (umaine). previous offers for the position were rumored to have been offered to the asst. coaches of brown, rpi and the head coach of the ahl springfield indians. umass hockey was disbanded in 1979 due to financial constraints that had undermined the team's position over a period of years. in late november of last year, the $52 million mullins sports center was opened following its one year construction deadline. the minutemen are slated to play an independent div ii/div iii schedule this upcoming winter before officially entering hockey east for the winter 1994 season. mallen has yet to comment on player recruitment strategies or potential team candidates for the minutemen - it is expected that he will leverage off his inside contacts within new england, the bay state and europe to draw on competitive, top ice players for the university. umass has slated 18 hockey scholarships for the upcoming fall semester ; expect to hear more from me as i hear more from my sources. .... j.d. jim doyle univ. of massachusetts - dept. of computer science staff programmer puma/dcc/cnet email: doyle@gaia.cs.umass.edu office: lederle grc room a203 tel. 413-545-3179 home : 91 blackberry ln tel. 413-549-1409 amherst,ma 01002-1516 
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 or boston? you know sinden's going to find some way of screwing up even this good boston team. he'll fire suter or trade away a vital star. (admittedly, his last few trades have been good ones but how long before his luck runs out and he starts making esposito-for- ratelle type trades again?) how was this trade bad? i seem to recall ratelle and middleton making a pretty good centre - right wing combination, and the bruins also got brad park in the deal (and they also lost vadnais and somebody else). after the trade, the bruins were in two finals and one semi-final, all of which, of course, they lost to montreal (which should please you to no end). i doubt, however, keeping esposito would have made a difference in those series, as he did not for the rangers in '79 (or any of his years in boston, for that matter). _ ___ _ //^/o o\^\\ 
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 well put, jason. i am not from wisconsin, but i have close relatives who live in port washington (about 30 minutes north of milwaukee), i visit the city regularly, and i have been in the bradley four times to see the admirals play and the ncaa hockey championships. it is a beautiful building. the pettits and the city like to promote it as the best facility for hockey in north america. as to what will happen with the admirals if milwaukee does acquire a franchise, word is the team will move to green bay and play in the brown county arena. once again, the admirals are an independent franchise, and the people of milwaukee have been supporting them well. the games i have been to have seen crowds anywhere from 10,000 to 13,000, which are numbers some nhl teams (i.e. the islanders, hartford, new jersey) would be envious of having on some nights. plus the fact that the city is able to support a minor league franchise without the glamour of having an nhl club affiliated to it is testimony to the amount of hockey interest exists in the city. martin hill, rt. 2, box 155b, sault ste. marie, mi (home of lssu: go lakers!) p.s. anybody know what the attendance figures are for the ihl and how milwaukee stacks up against other ihl cities such as atlanta, phoenix, san diego, cleveland, and cincinnati? if so, please reply. 
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 i can live with the other changes that have been made (e.g. the playoff format change), but the change to the division and conference names really annoys me. "batman" was on tsn last night saying that changing the names would make the game easier for the "occasional fan to follow". he should have said what he meant: that changing the names will make the game easier for _americans_ in non-hockey cities to follow. i don't know of too many of my friends who had a hard time following which teams were in each division. even a minimal amount of exposure to the game allows a person to quickly pick up on this. there is nothing wrong with making the game easier for "_americans_" to follow. the more fans the merrier and even if you dislike the "occasional" fan there is always the chance that these fans will become fanatics. i am glad that the names are being changed for another reason. the names patrick, smythe, norris, adams and campbell are all the names of so-called "builders" of the game. this is the same type of thinking that put stein in the hall of fame. this is absolute nonsense. the real builders of the game are richard, morenz, howe, conacher, orr, etc. if you are going to name the divisions after people at least name the divisions after people who deserve it. i think that you are incorrect, roger. patrick, smythe and adams all played or coached in the league before becoming front office types. hence, they did help build the league, although they were not great players themselves. i agree that a name is a name is a name, and if some people have trouble with names that are not easily processed by the fans, then changing them to names that are more easily processed seems like a reasonable idea. if we can get people in the (arena) door by being uncomplicated, then let's do so. once we have them, they will realize what a great game hockey is, and we can then teach them something abotu the history of the game. the history of the names can be put rather succinctly. all of the aforemen- tioned used the game of hockey to make money. can you imagine a pocklington division? a ballard division? or how about a green division? no, i would not want to see a ballard division. but to say that these owners are assholes, hence all nhl management people are assholes would be fallacious. conn smythe, for example, was a classy individual (from what i have heard). also, isn't the point of "professional" hockey to make money for all those involved, which would include the players. what i think you might be saying is that the players have not made as much money as should have been their due, and it is the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them on the ice, so naming division after management people rather than players is adding insult (in the form of lesser recognition) to injury (less money than was deserved). evan pritchard -------- number 1 or 9 depending on the hockey pool epritcha@psych.uiuc.edu 
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 mario averaged 2.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 points per game ... the antigretz gretzky averaged 2.69 pts/game mario projected over 80 games. 213 points (beats wayne's record by 1) check your information before posting, gretzky's record is 215 pts in 80 games. over 84 games 97 g + 127 a = 224 points. over 84 games, gretzky's total projected 226 points. pitt's winning percentage with mario (45-10-5) over 84 games -> 133 points. would this have been a record? i know mtl had 132 one year. the 76-77 canadiens had .825 percentage, 132 pts in 80 games. (60-8-12). the 29-30 bruins had a .875 winning percentage. also the 77-78 canadiens had a .806 percentage with a 59-10-11 record. bob wilson ad684@freenet.carleton.ca * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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 for updated playoff updates (scores, stats, summaries) e-mail me. (mmilitzo@skidmore.edu) with the subject stats. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53641">
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 everyone... read this. if you have already sent your predictions, please correct the patrick division if you would like. you have until midnight on monday (my time.) you may need to correct these games... 3 - pittsburgh vs. new jersey 4 - new york islanders vs. washington 10 - patrick division winner 13 - wales conference winner 15 - stanley cup winner please forward all corrections to richard madison rrmadiso@napier.uwaterloo.ca 1st rd: pens over isles in 4. devils over caps in 6. 2nd: pens over devils in 7. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53643">
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 in the mist of the rangers soap box (i.e. captain nemesis-ier/ex-coach roger nebula bad blood bath) and with high hopes turned to new coach mr. klean (commissar keenan)... i would like to know what procedures hockey teams use to select their captains (including a's). are they selected by the coaching staff, do the players vote for a captain, or are they appointed by management? and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other team captain trivia would be appreciated. -- mike 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53644">
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 and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other the leafs have always been kind of comical. during the second imlach era, when darryl sittler was called a "cancer on the team", he tore the c off his sweater and for a while the leafs didn't have a captain. sittler eventually ended up in philly and he was promised the philly captaincy by new gm (and sittler's friend) bobby clarke. instead, sittler got traded to detroit. rick vaive was the leaf captain for awhile but he slept in one day and they took the captaincy away from him. then he was traded to chicago. during doug carpenter's tenure as leaf coach, in an attempt to kiss the ass of a sulking gary leeman, the leafs took the a away from brad marsh to give to leeman. leeman wouldn't take it and when they tried to give it back to marsh, he wouldn't take it neither. the best story i remember about a captain concerned mel bridgman, late of the senators. while he was in philadelphia, bobby clarke, arguably one of the great captains of all time, was bumped up to the status of playing coach and so he had to relinquish the captaincy. bridgman be- came the new captain. a reporter asked a flyer what bridgman did as a captain since clarke was still the undisputed leader amongst the players. the reporter was told that bridgman was in charge of making sure that the soap dispensers in the showers were always full. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53645">
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 are people here stupid or what??? it is a tie breaker, of cause they have to have the same record. how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker??? if it is a tie breaker, how can there be different record???? man, i thought people in this net are good with hockey. i might not be great in math, but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record??? man...retard!!!!!! can't believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker...... golly, i love stupid people. :-) listen, rex, this is hockey. the nhl, to be precise. and in the nhl, there exist these things called "ties". a tie occurs when a game ends with the score for each team equal. each team gets one point for a tie. there also exits these things called "wins". a win is when one team has a higher score than the opponent. (oh yeah, only two teams play each other at a time, so i can say "the opponent".) a team gets two points for a win. so, let's say that a team has a record of 38 wins, 36 losses, and 10 ties. another team has a record of 40 wins, 38 losses and 6 ties. the first team has (38*2)+10 = 86 points. the second team has (40*2)+6 = 86 points. wow! they *both* have the same number of points, but the number of wins is different! how did they do that??!?!?!?! that's amazing. so, rex, when people talk about wins being the first tiebreaker, well, then that's what it means. in our example, the second team would win the tiebreaker and therefore have the "better" record, even though both teams had the same number of points. if you didn't understand this post, rex, maybe you should go back and read it again, very slowly. keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53647">
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 picture if you will, the habs going into the last couple minutes of the game, leading 2-0. the nords get a power play, pull hextall, and get a goal. bout a minute later, they get another one. then they win in overtime...... a bad dream?....... how's that red hot chili peppers song go... "give it away,give it away, give it away now...." oh well. suppose i can always watch the leafs win tomorrow night.... (smilies.....) am i the only female hockey fan in the world? susan carroll-clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca 
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 i can't understand how someone in the sports dept. can't even recognise the name of playoffs shown on the very same station he works for. you think that's bad ... one year, we had all three new york teams in the playoffs and the cableco operator (scny once shared a channel with bet but someone forgot to throw the switch at 6pm) didn't know what i was talking about ... while it's nice that the nhl is back on american network tv, it faces the same problems as it did with the all star game. local preemptions and zero promotion (okay, i don't watch that much tv so i'm just foaming all right?). the league should have made sure that it was solid on cable before going to the networks. in year one of the new espn contract, the saturation coverage of sca (all other games shown to completion, like the quebec-montreal and sabres-bruins overtimes) is missed around here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 mark messier, n. y. rangers messier was not invited due to his nagging injuries. while the press made an issue of it, and attempted to link it to the rangers' internal political woes, mike keenan repeated that to messier personally during the msg press conference. it makes sense ... messier would probably have not declined the invitation if it were made for publicity ... actually, messier was invited, but declined due to nagging injuries... keenan and messier have always gotten along...keenan dumped steve yzerman from the last canada cup team, even though yzerman had endured the training camp, when messier who had missed essentially the entire camp recovering from injuries became available at the last moment. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53658">
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 as the subject suggests the flames were not impressive this afternoon, dropping a 6-3 decision to the la kings. most of the flames neglected to show up, especially in their own zone, as the kings hit at least five posts! the flames best line was probably mike vernon is now 3 wins 11 losses plus that all-star game debacle in afternoon games during his career...with another afternoon game with los angeles next sunday...has the abc deal doomed the flames? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53661">
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 was the abc coverage of the kings/flames game supposed to be the way it was shown in bc with cbc overriding the abc coverage? when i flipped to abc, it was the same commentators, same commercials even. my question is: was this the real abc coverage or did cbc just "black out" the abc coverage for its own? here in nanaimo (on vancouver island, for you furriners out there) we got the abc coverage on komo. it probably depends on your cable company. i started off switching between the cbc and abc broadcasts, but finally settled on abc. i can't stand don whitman, and al michaels was doing a decent job. he followed the play pretty well, knew all the players' names, and only made a couple of "rookie" mistakes that i noticed. one thing that surprised me is that they never once attempted to explain the offside rule. am-i-paranoid-or-is-this-really-happening department: there were no fights in the game, but there were a couple of occasions where it looked like a fight was about to start. both times abc cut away to show a closeup of a coach or mcnall or something. has abc decided to adopt the "spicer policy?" lorne epp epp@mala.bc.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53665">
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 deg has many german-born forwards in the team. in fact the majority of players are german-born. 1992-93 deg had 11150 average in 11800 spectator arena. interesting! one of our german friends here (robert?) told me their forwards were all canadian-germans. perhaps somebody can sort this out for us? my possible-nhl(european league)-site list: switzerland : berne, zurich (lugano and 1-2 others) ok, "this ain't north america" and so on, but i still doubt that _any_ city having a pop. of 500,000 and below could support an nhl team. of course, switzerland probably should be judged as one large city because of small distances between cities but still. germany : dusseldorf, cologne, berlin, munich (mannheim, rosenheim) dusseldorf? yes, although the arena is an anachronism (an open wall behind one of the goals - essentially an outdoor arena!). cologne's arena only seats about 7,000-8,000, berlin is about 6,000 and no new facility will be built unless their olympic bid is successful. munich does have an arena. sweden : stockholm, gothenburg (malmo, gavle) malmo is big enough, but they also need a new arena...the current one has 5,000 seats i think. finland : helsinki (turku, tampere) if we're talking about the nhl, even helsinki would struggle to make it work. turku (despite an excellent arena) and tampere are nowhere near big enough for major league hockey. italy : milan ...rome and the south are out of the question; this could as well be africa to hockey fans. romans were given the chance to host some wc'94 games but showed no interest whatsoever. all teams in the italian league come from milan and the smaller cities in the north. france : paris (chamonix, ruoen?) paris had their own "volans francais"(sp) pro team a couple of years ago. i believe they even made it to the european club championship finals tournament one year, but eventually folded due to lower-than-hoped-for attendances. the remaining cities seem to be too small to support a minor sport like hockey. norway : (oslo) austria : (vienna, villach) chech : (prag) slovakia : (bratislava) russia : (moscow, st. petersburg) the easter cities lack the money and infrastructure to support pro hockey. great britain: ? perhaps . . . most european teams will have to be like the tampa bay lightning anyway; playing in a small 10,000 seat arena, backed by japanese money, run by enthusiasts (phil esposito), heavy marketing, fans that have difficulty telling what "icing" means... london has been mentioned, sheffield and birmingham also have large arenas and a new mega-facility (16,000 seats!) might be built in bristol in a couple of years. netherlands : ? no facilities to speak of; their biggest arena (in eindhoven) seats 2,500 fans for hockey. petteri kortelainen marcu$ 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53666">
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 roger maynard shares his views, with the masses, on bob gainey and life in general: in <1993apr15.160450.27799@sol.uvic.ca> gballent@hudson.uvic.ca the selke candidate forwards main purpose on a shift is to prevent goals from being scored- not to score them. when lemieux or gilmour play their number one purpose is to score- defence is secondary- especially considering the line that plays against them is probably a defensive one. that is why they are not selke candidates. gainey is the best defensive forward ever. i stand by that assessment. he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame. did you ever watch him play? he never made a technical error. i watched him over his entire career. i have never seen a player, and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon, screw up as many breakaways as bob gainey. and i will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down. you have been sold a bill of goods on bob gainey. it was bryan trottier, not denis potvin. it was a vicious 'boarding' from behind...trottier was given a major. but roger, what the hell does this have to do with gainey's skill as a hockey player? if probert smashes gilmour's head into the boards next week, will that diminish your assessment of gilmour's gainey was a plugger. and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on... i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter. i think gainey would be honoured to know that you've included him on this list. i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game...pluggers are an integral part of any team. the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution...i think that most people understand that it's not the nobel prize...so settle down. cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca congenially, as always, james david david@student.business.uwo.ca j3david@sms.business.uwo.ca (james david) western business school -- london, ontario 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53670">
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 well, since you mentioned it... lemieux is clearly the mvp no question here. chip in the masterson as well... selanne wins the calder chelios the norris, if you asked me 30 days ago, i'd agree with you. i now give the nod to raymond bourque; his play took off the same time the b's did. chelios gets a close second... dunno who wins the vezina, but i suspect not potvin. barrasso finally gets his due, in a close one over eddie the eagle... coach of the year is tricky: burns did the most with the least raw talent, king did a good job but the flames clearly underachieved last year, brian sutter has done exceptionally well in his first year with a new team, ditto demers, page has been blessed by the ripening and acquisition of young talent, darryl sutter is having a good year for a rookie coach, berry made the best of a bad situation, terry crisp worked minor miracles, and bowman was bowman. i'd pick burns, but i'm mildly biased. in *your* case, that bias is acceptable :-)... mine shows with the norris pick, so we're even... i'm impressed with what all the coaches you mentioned did, but my pick would be al arbour. not too many folks thought the isles would be in the playoffs, let alone contend for 3rd in their division... granted that they *did* have a little help from their cousins on broadway... :-) and i like the islanders about as much as i like mowing my lawn... mike godfrey david kehrer (dwk@sunsrvr2.cci.com)-northern telecom nas-rochester, new york "it's nothing for me to eat six or seven pieces of pizza, then go out to dinner with my wife and not remember i had the pizza." - jacques demers 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53671">
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 vielen dank desperate fan ps. sweden vs finland finished 6-6 in gothenburg 15th apr. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53674">
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 it was bryan trottier, not denis potvin. it was a vicious 'boarding' from behind...trottier was given a major. perhaps it was trottier. it happened behind the habs goal if i recall. gainey simply didn't have his head up as he was picking up the puck. but roger, what the hell does this have to do with gainey's skill as a hockey player? if probert smashes gilmour's head into the boards next week, will that diminish your assessment of gilmour's if gilmour was taken completely by surprise, as gainey was, then yeah, i would have to say that doug wasn't playing "technically" smart hockey. in any case, to claim as greg did, that gainey *never* made a technical mistake is absolutely ludicrous. gainey was a plugger. and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on... i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter. good for you. you'd only be displaying your ignorance of course, but to each his own... i think gainey would be honoured to know that you've included him i think gainey should feel honoured to know that he is remembered at on this list. i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game...pluggers are an integral part of certainly pluggers are an integral part of any team. and that is simply because there are not enough solid two-way players to go around. who would you rather have as your "checking" centre? doug gilmour or doug jarvis? for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my "checking" centres. do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey? any team. the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution...i think that most people understand that it's not the nobel prize...so settle down. you're wrong again. the selke is awarded to the forward that does the best job defensively and this may or may not be the best plugger. if gilmour does the best defensive job in the league i don't see why he should be out of the running simply because he also contributes offen- settle down? if you think that i have likened the selke to the nobel prize then i suggest that you had best "settle down". and if you are going to try to put words in my mouth, let me suggest that you "settle down" before you bother following up on my postings. congenially, as always, james david david@student.business.uwo.ca you might consider developing your own style. after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention. cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
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 7. carol alt, head coach in 93-94? i wish! she can be *my* head coach any time!!!! (sorry ali! back to real hockey.) hmmmmmm. i think i'll let everyone make there own comment on this one. the bad alexei kovalev. what did the rangers think when they signed him? did they think he was another domi? just let him play! and not on a 4th line. better that he stays in the minors and gets ice-time all the time. whose "bad"? it has been neilson and smith's decision to play him there, if that's what you mean, then that's bad. but kovalev himself is a very good player. you're right, if he weren't stranded on the fourth line maybe he'd produce. sound familiar? darren turcotte? neilson and smith are bad. kovalev is magical. lets go pens! the owl 
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 i'm starting an informal poll on goalie masks. i'd like to know who's mask you think looks the best. i've always like curtis joseph's of the blues the best. anyway, send your nominations to me, or post your vote here on r.s.h. my e-mail adress is: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu thanks for your time. i saw a mask once that had drawings of band-aids, presumably for every puck that goalie stopped with his face/head. i can't remember who it was or even if it was nhl (i see quite a few ahl games here). this is by far the funniest mask i've seen, and for me funny=cool go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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 anyone who really believes that the caps can beat the pens are kidding themselves. the pens may not loose one game in the playoffs. geoff filinuk flyers fan 
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 bad news for the patrick division next year. caps gm david polie is reportedly trying to get a front office job with the nhl. i can't believe polie has not been fired despite 10 years of mediocrity. you know what frank? it's not david poile's fault that the caps have mired in mediocrity for so long. blame it on the owner, abe polin! this guy owns both the nba's bullets and the nhl's capitals. how dumb and selfish could this guy be? he's unwilling to spend the bucks in order to get a big star to landover...no wonder both teams stink! i've heard that the capitals had a chance to get detroit's steve yzerman last summer but they pulled out at the last minute. why? because our good man, abe, is afraid to spend the cash! nevertheless, i'm still faithful and hoping that one day this devilish dictator will be replaced. frank salvatore fmsalvat@eos.ncsu.edu tuan a. van "does it matter where you buy your underwear ?!" --> tom cruise, rain man | t. a. van -- a.k.a. archmage | q: what's orange, black, and ugly | | george mason university | and dwells in the basement ? | | electrical engineering '93 | a: da philadelphia flyers! | | tva1@gmuvax.gmu.edu | | | tva1@mason1.gmu.edu | ** let's go cap-i-tals! ** | 
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 well, the tentative rules, anyway. and, of course, since the season is not entirely over, tentative entry form. but who cares? the real hockey season is starting!!!!! here's the deal: you email (preferably) or post your predictions, and the number of games you think each series will go. each round will be weighted, so that the stanley cup finals will be very important, but the early rounds will still be important. here is the scoring: pick 1st round winner, way off on games: 2 points pick 1st round winner, within one game: 3 points pick 1st round winner, pick # of games: 5 points pick 2nd round winner, way off on games: 3 points pick 2nd round winner, within one game: 4 points pick 2nd round winner, pick # of games: 6 points pick conference champ, way off on games: 5 points pick conference champ, within one game: 6 points pick conference champ, pick # of games: 9 points pick stanley cup champ, way off on games: 8 points pick stanley cup champ, within one game: 10 points pick stanley cup champ, pick # of games: 14 points pick loser in 7, series goes 7: 2 points pick loser in 7, series decided in game 7, ot: 4 points (these last two are sympathy points, probably won't happen anyway) obviously, picking the stanley cup champion is important. i will do some tests to see if the format is fair, but probably i will be too lazy to modify it, so the scoring will probably be like this. as for entry forms, well, this post is getting too long, so see next post. keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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 okay, here's the entry sheet. keep in mind that not all spots are decided, so it may change. series your pick games division semis ny islanders-pittsburgh new jersey-washington buffalo-boston montreal-quebec st. louis-chicago toronto-detroit winnipeg-vancouver los angeles-calgary division finals conference finals stanley cup winner see previous post for scoring. good luck! keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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 here is a review of some of the off-ice things that have affected the ahl this year. st john's maple leafs problems the st john's maple leafs sophomore season has been plagued by problems. on-ice, the leafs won the atlantic division title but off ice was less happy. a strike by public workers has forced the leafs out of the newfoundland city for much of the last half of the seaosn (since mid-jan). they have played "home" games in places like montreal, cornwall and charlottetown. their playoff "home" games will be played in the metro center in halifax, ns. one demostration got violent. workers attacked a leafs' bus and rocked it and broke windows in the st john's memorial stadium. despite the problems, toronto officials insist that the leafs will return to st john's once the strike ends. senators sold the new haven senators have been sold by peter shipman to the ottawa senators nhl organization. they are the only canadian nhl team with an american ahl affiliate, and have made it clear they intend to move the team to somewhere in the canadian atlantic provinces. this sale and move has yet to be approved by the ahl head office, but is expected to pass easily at the general meeting in may. the quote in the story from jack butterfield made it clear the league was more interested in the stability of the ahl franchise accompanied by nhl ownership, rather than maintaining the 56-year history of the ahl in new haven. the senators are currently in serious negotiations with charlottetown new brunswick and are expected to move there. dallas helps hawks stay in moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out of moncton, the winnipeg jets changed their mind. the jets announced the move when they said that they would be slashing their minor league roster from 20-something to around a dozen; and they wanted to share with an existing ahl or ihl franchise. enter the dallas lone stars. dallas agreed to supply the remaining 6 or 8 players to the moncton franchise. thus keeping the hawks in the new brunswick city. the deal is for one year and will be extended to three years if the season ticket base increases to over 3000. the hawks only sold 1400 for this year. saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed a deal with the city of saint john, nb. the saint john blue flames will play in the 6200 exhibition center. the flames still have to apply for an expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected to have no trouble. caps follow jacks to maine despite rumors to the contrary, the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks to maine. the caps' current farm team, the baltimore skipjacks, announced that they would move to maine and become the portland pirates. there was much doubt as to if the caps would follow but they announced a limited deal with portland. they would supply a dozen or so players including 2 goalies. they become the third team to announce a limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders. ahl game of the week in early january, the ahl started a game of the week. the game, produced by, i believe, pyman productions, was televised across the canadian maritimes and northeastern us. the first few weeks saw two games of the week, one in canada and another in the us but since then, there has been only one. sunday afternoon and night games were covered and shown on sportschannel ny and ne in the us and, i believe, atlantic sports network in canada (but i'm not sure about that). i am not sure if playoff games will be covered. utica gone? syracuse added? there were heavy rumors that the utica devils will not be around next season. there were rumors that they might be headed to a midwestern city and that the city of syracuse is trying to lure them. what the ahl might look like next year one option another option northern division southern division adirondack red wings adirondack springfield indians springfield providence bruins providence cd islanders cdi portland pirates hershey southern division rochester hershey bears hamilton binghamton rangers utica rochester americans hamilton canucks atlantic division utica (?) devils portland st john's atlantic division saint john st john's maple leafs moncton moncton hawks halifax halifax citadels fredericton cape breton oilers cape breton fredericton canadiens charlottetown saint john blue flames charlottetown senators (move is unofficial as yet) + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl and ecac contact for rec.sport.hockey go usa hockey! + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champ: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high school, division ii ny state champs: '90 '91 + + join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + + congrats to clarkson golden knights hockey: 1993 ecac champions!!! + 
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 dallas helps hawks stay in moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out of moncton, the winnipeg jets changed their mind. the jets announced the move when they said that they would be slashing their minor league roster from 20-something to around a dozen; and they wanted to share with an existing ahl or ihl franchise. enter the dallas lone stars. dallas agreed to supply the remaining 6 or 8 players to the moncton franchise. thus keeping the hawks in the new brunswick city. the deal is for one year and will be extended to three years if the season ticket base increases to over 3000. the hawks only sold 1400 for this year. saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed a deal with the city of saint john, nb. the saint john blue flames will play in the 6200 exhibition center. the flames still have to apply for an expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected to have no trouble. caps follow jacks to maine despite rumors to the contrary, the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks to maine. the caps' current farm team, the baltimore skipjacks, announced that they would move to maine and become the portland pirates. there was much doubt as to if the caps would follow but they announced a limited deal with portland. they would supply a dozen or so players including 2 goalies. they become the third team to announce a limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders. + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl and ecac contact for rec.sport.hockey go usa hockey! + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + + congrats to the boston bruins, 1992-93 adams division champions + + phoenix suns, 1992-93 pacific division champions + 
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 post: 51213 of 51227 newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey organization: dept. of computer science, laurentian university, sudbury, on date: thu, 15 apr 1993 21:41:29 gmt in <4ld32b2w165w@sms.business.uwo.ca> it was bryan trottier, not denis potvin. it was a vicious 'boarding' from behind...trottier was given a major. perhaps it was trottier. it happened behind the habs goal if i recall. gainey simply didn't have his head up as he was picking up the puck. but roger, what the hell does this have to do with gainey's skill as a hockey player? if probert smashes gilmour's head into the boards next week, will that diminish your assessment of gilmour's skills? if gilmour was taken completely by surprise, as gainey was, then yeah, i would have to say that doug wasn't playing "technically" smart hockey. in any case, to claim as greg did, that gainey *never* made a technical mistake is absolutely later on, in your posting, you make reference to "putting words into other people's mouths"...i would suggest that your last paragraph can only be interpreted in one way...namely, that i, along with greg, claim that gainey never made a technical mistake. if you actually read what i've written, you will find that i make no such claim...soooo, if logic serves me well, you're contradicting yourself. gainey was a plugger. and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on... i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter. good for you. you'd only be displaying your ignorance of course, but to each his own... roger, i'm not sure here, but i think "ignorance" is really a function of "a lack of knowledge" and not "formulating an opinion"...but hey, if you need to take a cheap shot, then by all means go ahead...that's if it makes you feel better. i think gainey would be honoured to know that you've included i think gainey should feel honoured to know that he is remembered at all. my word, such vehemence against poor ol' bob gainey. why does he bother you so much...he was an effective player for his style of play. on this list. i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game...pluggers are an integral part certainly pluggers are an integral part of any team. and that is simply because there are not enough solid two-way players to go around. who would you rather have as your "checking" centre? doug gilmour or doug jarvis? for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my "checking" centres. do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey? i'm really sorry roger, but you have lost me completely here. why don't you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ, himself, in nets? now, if you were to compare, say for example, bob gainey with guy carbonneau, you would have a balanced comparison. any team. the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution...i think that most people understand that it's not the nobel prize...so settle down. you're wrong again. the selke is awarded to the forward that does the best job defensively and this may or may not be the best plugger. if gilmour does the best defensive job in the league i don't see why he should be out of the running simply because he also contributes offen-sively. i'm wrong again...hmmm, let's see...where was i wrong in the first place? i'm only guessing here, rog, but i have a feeling that you've setup a "you're wrong again" macro key on your i agree that my use of the word plugger is simplistic...but i think you know what i'm getting at. i would also like to point out that gilmour's potential as a selke-winner was never part of the debate...are you asking me for an opinion? if so, i think there are far too many other deserving players to include gilmour among the candidates. settle down? if you think that i have likened the selke to the nobel prize then i suggest that you had best "settle down". and if you are going to try to put words in my mouth, let me suggest that you "settle down" before you bother following up on my postings. i would suggest that your comment: "and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on..." demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game...so yes, settle down...nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods. congenially, as always, james david david@student.business.uwo.ca you might consider developing your own style. after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention. c'mon...it has a nice ring to it...and admit it, you had a good congenially, as always, james david david@student.business.uwo.ca j3david@sms.business.uwo.ca (james david) western business school -- london, ontario 
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 it's only test message. 
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 well here it goes...my crazy predictions (which never come true, but hey..) bos vs. buf - bos in 5 (cakewalk for the hot bruins) que vs. mon - que in 6 (best series of the first round) pit vs. nyi - pit in 5 (nyi wins fourth game) was vs. njd - njd in 7 (a grueling upset, possibly ot in game 7) chi vs. stl - chi in 5 (stl is no match for keenan's krew) det vs. tor - tor in 6 (clark steps it up in playoffs this year) smythe (who cares?) van vs. win - win in 7 (so i'm caught up in teemu-mania, sue me!) cal vs. lak - cal in 5 (la sucks!!!!!!!!! imo) division finals bos vs. que - bos in 7 (killer games, watch for cam to shine) pit vs. njd - pit in 6 (njd go insane, kill all on ice, but pit wins) chi vs. tor - tor in 7 (tor defense finally get it together) cal vs. win - cal in 6 (win too tired after 1st series) conference finals pit vs. bos - bos in 6 (pit too beat up by njd to play (i hope)) cal vs. tor - tor in 6 (vernon turns into a sieve) stanley cup bos vs. tor - tor in 7 (two totally different teams, who knows? dreams can come true, pig might one day evolve wings) feel free to laugh at my predictions, i always do! 
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 if gilmour was taken completely by surprise, as gainey was, then yeah, i would have to say that doug wasn't playing "technically" smart hockey. in any case, to claim as greg did, that gainey *never* made a technical mistake is absolutely later on, in your posting, you make reference to "putting words into other people's mouths"...i would suggest that your last paragraph can only be interpreted in one way...namely, that i, along with greg, claim that gainey never made a technical mistake. if you actually read what i've written, you will find that i make no such claim...soooo, if logic serves me well, you're contradicting yourself. nonsense. i quite clearly state that it was greg that made the claim that gainey never made an error. and he made the claim. read below. from rec.sport.hockey thu apr 15 21:22:49 1993 message-id: <1993apr15.160450.27799@sol.uvic.ca> [nonsense deleted] gainey is the best defensive forward ever. i stand by that assessment. he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame. did you ever watch him play? he never made a technical error. [more nonsense deleted] good for you. you'd only be displaying your ignorance of course, but to each his own... roger, i'm not sure here, but i think "ignorance" is really a function of "a lack of knowledge" and not "formulating an opinion"...but hey, if you need to take a cheap shot, then by all means go ahead...that's if it makes you feel better. to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious. your hockey education is not my responsibility. my word, such vehemence against poor ol' bob gainey. why does he bother you so much...he was an effective player for his style of play. he was just another player. to laud him as anything more i find bothersome. i hated the habs. i hated lafleur until i realized that he was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player to ever skate in my lifetime. why would anyone talk about gainey? go around. who would you rather have as your "checking" centre? doug gilmour or doug jarvis? for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my "checking" centres. do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey? i'm really sorry roger, but you have lost me completely here. why don't you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ, himself, in nets? did he play hockey at a high level? was he any good? if not, why would you bother to bring jc up? i am talking about hockey players here. if you can't follow the conversation don't follow up. as i said previously, it is not my responsibility to educate you. now, if you were to compare, say for example, bob gainey with guy carbonneau, you would have a balanced comparison. sure. two journeymen. big deal. neither one of them is worth i'm wrong again...hmmm, let's see...where was i wrong in the i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter. first place? i'm only guessing here, rog, but i have a feeling that you've setup a "you're wrong again" macro key on your that is an excellent idea and if i decide to waste any more time responding to any of your, or greg's, postings then i will be sure to implement that very macro. i would suggest that your comment: "and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on..." demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game...so yes, settle down...nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods. tarasov claimed that gainey was a "hockey god." and greg ate it up. and that is what this thread is all about. if you didn't know that then why are you responding? and as for "blanket disregard for these individuals", i can remember leaf teams, purely populated by such "individuals", winning four stanley cups. teams. no one ran around telling us that george armstrong was the best hockey player in the world. congenially, as always, james david david@student.business.uwo.ca you might consider developing your own style. after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention. c'mon...it has a nice ring to it...and admit it, you had a good right. i had to get to the end of your posting before i realized you were a complete joke. in the future, if you are going to respond to my postings i would appreciate it if you could present a cogent argument supported by facts gleaned from a version of reality that most of the rest of us would recognize. cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
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 pete raymond emailed me this piece of info. not sure if game 7 was intentionally or unintentionally omitted (ie date not set). [begin quoted material] because of the moncton win friday night halifax was eliminated thus st. john's will make halifax home. the first round of play-offs wil take place on these dates. april 14 - halifax metro center (leafs home game) april 17 - halifax metro center april 21 - moncton april 23 - moncton april 26 - halifax metro center april 30 - moncton this is a halifax (or at least this halifax) resident's dream come true!! the leafs are my favorite nhl team (and no, i don't know why)!!!!!!!!! i'd say that this is even better than the citadels making the playoffs (a quebec farm team; who cares??). by the way, for any nfld fans....i'm sure asn will carry some of the games (they'd be stupid not to....but then this is asn) i haven't heard any news about asn carrying any games but the local cable station here in st. john's (cable 9) is carrying the games live! hey, it's better than nothing! go leafs go!!! | "why sex is so popular | dale fraser dale@odie.cs.mun.ca | | is easy to see: | memorial university of newfoundland | | it contains no sodium | cs undergrad - class of '92 | | and it's cholesterol free!" |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| | shelby friedman | blue jays 1992 world series champs!! | | *opinions expressed above do not belong to me or this institution!* | 
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 the presence of the new team in miami(i can't say south florida; it's too long) makes me think of an interesting question. can you sell the hispanic community on hockey? miami is 60-70% hispanic. this community has no experience and no previous exposure to hockey that i know of. the teams in ny and la which also have big hispanic groups do not seem to try to woo this group. what will miami do? could they get spanish-language tv and radio coverage? i think, as do the owners, that hockey will do well in miami since there is a lot of people from the northeast that spend their winters in florida every year. as for the coverage, someone will have to come up with some money for that since broadcast rights can be expensive! just my $0.02! | "why sex is so popular | dale fraser dale@odie.cs.mun.ca | | is easy to see: | memorial university of newfoundland | | it contains no sodium | cs undergrad - class of '92 | | and it's cholesterol free!" |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| | shelby friedman | blue jays 1992 world series champs!! | | *opinions expressed above do not belong to me or this institution!* | 
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 has anyone heard what game espn is showing tonight. they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff-wise. i would assume this would be the blues-tampa game or the minnesota-red wings game... anyone heard for sure??? jeff swartz i heard it will be the minnesota-detroit game. don't know the time david monack e-mail: monack@gas.uug.arizona.edu "love is the delusion that one woman differs from another." h.l. mencken 
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 post: 51240 of 51243 newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey organization: dept. of computer science, laurentian university, sudbury, on date: fri, 16 apr 1993 01:59:36 gmt <discussion deleted> good for you. you'd only be displaying your ignorance of course, but to each his own... roger, i'm not sure here, but i think "ignorance" is really a function of "a lack of knowledge" and not "formulating an opinion"...but hey, if you need to take a cheap shot, then by all means go ahead...that's if it makes you feel better. to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious. your hockey education is not my responsibility. my hockey education? what the f--- are you talking about? i'm not even going to try to refute this absolutely insane statement. my word, such vehemence against poor ol' bob gainey. why does he bother you so much...he was an effective player for his style of play. he was just another player. to laud him as anything more i find bothersome. i hated the habs. i hated lafleur until i realized that he was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player to ever skate in my lifetime. why would anyone talk about gainey? "i hate the habs" ?...you sound like a 10-year old. this statement is just further exemplifies your total inability to argue objectively about hockey. don't give me this crap about "cogent arguments"...i've yet to read something of yours that is cogent. you consistently argue with: (1) emotion; (2) huge, sweeping statements frankly, you have a very unconvincing style. i'm not defending bob gainey...frankly, i don't care for him all that much. but your dismissal of him as something less than an effective hockey player is tiresome...it has no basis in anything. how many calders did he win? i think it was four (go ahead and refresh my memory). what about the conn smythe? was that a fluke? yeah, not the makings of a hockey superstar, i know, but try to have a reason, any reason, to shoot him down. go around. who would you rather have as your "checking" centre? doug gilmour or doug jarvis? for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my "checking" centres. do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey? i'm really sorry roger, but you have lost me completely here. why don't you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ, himself, in nets? did he play hockey at a high level? was he any good? if not, why would you bother to bring jc up? i am talking about hockey players here. if you can't follow the conversation don't follow up. as i said previously, it is not my responsibility to educate you. hey cowboy! you're the "expert" who introduced the idiotic comparison of gainey with gretzky and lemieux...you figure it now, if you were to compare, say for example, bob gainey with guy carbonneau, you would have a balanced comparison. sure. two journeymen. big deal. neither one of them is worth how many individual awards between them? eight...i don't remember (once again, please feel free to refresh my memory...and try to be as sarcastic as possible about my "hockey education"). i'm wrong again...hmmm, let's see...where was i wrong in the i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter. oh my god!!! did i say that? roger...what's your point? fuhr is a goaltender, goaltender's don't "plug"...in his prime, he was one of the best. sanderson was a scrapper...if you stick him on you may as well include half the flyers team of the same era. first place? i'm only guessing here, rog, but i have a feeling that you've setup a "you're wrong again" macro key on your that is an excellent idea and if i decide to waste any more time responding to any of your, or greg's, postings then i will be sure to implement that very macro. oh roger, you shouldn't...really. i don't deserve this...you are far too accomodating already. i would suggest that your comment: "and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers. grant fuhr, essa tikkannen, butch goring, bob nystrom, bob gainey, doug jarvis, derek sanderson, wayne cashman, bob baun, bob pulford, ralph backstrom, henri richard, dick duff...and so on..." demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game...so yes, settle down...nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods. tarasov claimed that gainey was a "hockey god." and greg ate it up. and that is what this thread is all about. if you didn't know that then why are you responding? you seem to have allowed all of these other players fall into your sweeping, vacuous statement...that's why. if you want to debate gainey, go ahead...but why bring up everybody else? how does it support your argument? do you have an argument, or do you just like to throw around a few names hoping to impress us? and as for "blanket disregard for these individuals", i can remember leaf teams, purely populated by such "individuals", winning four stanley cups. teams. no one ran around telling us that george armstrong was the best hockey player in the great. i couldn't agree more. the flyers won two cups for the same reasons...deservedly so. so what? i don't get it. are you angry that the leafs didn't get more recognition? you seem to think these pluggers are "hyped"...i don't agree...plain and simple. if you're last statement is some sort of compromise, fair enough. you might consider developing your own style. after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention. c'mon...it has a nice ring to it...and admit it, you had a good right. i had to get to the end of your posting before i realized you were a complete joke. not a pleasant bone in your body, eh rog? why are you so unhappy? not getting invited to enough parties? what? in the future, if you are going to respond to my postings i would appreciate it if you could present a cogent argument supported by facts gleaned from a version of reality that most of the rest of us would recognize. roger, why are you under the impression that responding to your posts is some great honour? you really should stop...it sounds a little bit pathetic. frankly, it's about as honourable as a good fart. congenially, as always, james david j3david@student.business.uwo.ca/s j3david@sms.business.uwo.ca (james david) western business school -- london, ontario 
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 united states tv schedule: april 18 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 1 est abc (to eastern time zone) april 18 st. louis at chicago 12 cdt abc (to cent/mou time zones) april 18 los angeles at calgary 12 pdt abc (to pacific time zone) april 20 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 7:30 espn april 22 tba 7:30 espn april 24 tba 7:30 espn if somebody would send me the cbc/tsn schedule i'll post that as well. * mike burger * my canada includes, quebec, ontario, * * mmb@lamar.colostate.edu * the maritimes, the prairies, and florida * * a beginning computing ta stud * four months a year. * * over 500 students served * --royal canadian air farce * * university of michigan - 1990 -- colorado state university - 199? * 
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 what it comes down to is that jagr, despite being an arrogant asshole, is a very good hockey player who has had a better season this year than ron francis. jagr has more points and a better +/-. jagr has a higher +/-, but francis has had more points. and take it from an informed observer, ronnie francis has had a *much* better season than jaromir jagr. this is not to take anything away from jaro, who had a decent year (although it didn't live up to the expectations of some). dean j. falcione "badges? what badges? we (using jrmst8 by permission don't need no stinkin' of the owner, joe mcdonald) badges!" 
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 well, since you mentioned it... lemieux is clearly the mvp no question here. chip in the masterson as well... lemieux for the masterson? no doubt he had an awe inspiring season, but what personal records did he set this year? lemieux should have hart locked up...but how about mike gartner for the masterson? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53711">
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 actually, swedish coach curt lundmark is thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers. it is mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team, although in a late stage of the tournament. technically, i seem to recall that you can leave spots open until 24 hrs before the wc final. hmmm...i also heard through the grapevine that team finland might try and leave a spot open for at least one nhler. (some guy named sel{nne, ever hear of him? :) they might have to be content with kurri, though, i hope. :) daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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 selanne's +7 leads the jets; teppo numminen is +4. who do you think is better defensively? ron francis of the penguins is +5, although he has 97 points, while jaromir jagr has only 87 points but is +30. is jagr really better on defense than francis? and how exactly should we interpret the fact that mario lemieux has by far the highest +/- in the league? does he get the selke as well as the ross? the plus/minus does not measure defense alone. it attempts to measure a player's total contribution to the team effort. and certainly, it is far from perfect and my posting never implied otherwise. all that my posting suggested was that the +/- was a better indicator of a player's effectiveness, when examined in the context of that player's team's performance, than mere scoring totals alone. and as for mario getting the selke - why not? after doug gilmour, i would rather have lemieux on the ice in any situation (other than as an enforcer, obvi- ously) than any player in the game. i used to call the selke the "bob gainey award". it came about as a result of the statement made by anatoli tarasov: "bob gainey is the best hockey player in the world." i am sure that tarasov was either misquoted, originally, or had a tiny bit too much vodka and was toying with a reporter. in any event, the nhl decided to honour one dimensional checkers along with one dimen- sional scorers. maybe the league should start awarding the "doug gil- mour award" anually to the league's most effective, all-round player. cordially, as always, roger maynard maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca hey, what about the "roger maynard award" for the most annoying fan....? derrick m. jewlal 34 laurel st. , apt. #1 747 4804 
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 as the sharks' season came to a close tonight, i will start a series of posts, trying to revisit the players, the trades, the moves, etc., that went through for the sharks for the past season. if you are uninterested, since i will have the words sharks review in the subject heading in these postings, you can kill them. i will first try to evaluate how the players did. these ratings, of course, are subject to my own biases, but i hope that i can try to be as objective as possible. i will evalute players who finished the season with the sharks and/or did not play for another nhl team this season. thus, then, let's go to the goaltenders... #1 brian hayward season: 11th acquired: '91-92 from minnesota in dispersal draft grade: p (d) it is sad that his career has to come to this dim an end, a career that featured sharing three jennings trophies (with patrick roy, in '87, '88, and '89). it would indeed be unfair for me to do anything but give him a passing grade (and skip the letter grading), but he had simply been awful on ice this year, save for a bright spot or two, and even if he had been healthy, he would not be any more than the 3rd-string goalie. but hayward was a classy individual, who also figured in on the sharks' first ever victory, the 3rd game of the season last year against the calgary flames. as he retires, the fans will remember what a good guy he was. #30 jeff hackett season: 3rd acquired: '91-92, from n. y. islanders in expansion draft grade: c hackett, after (deservedly) winning the team mvp honors last season, simply wasted the year. other than a few good spots (57 saves against los angeles, almost-shutout against tampa bay, etc.), hackett, finishing with 85.6% save percentage and a 5.28 gaa, watched his status go from the team's #1 goalie to bench decoration at the end of the season. he was expected, early, to carry the team along; instead, he apparently became frustrated, but the an early injury that forced him to miss 12 games may have been a contributing factor, but upon return, he simply wasn't up to the task. he may not return next #31 wade flaherty season: 1st (still eligible as rookie) acquired: '91-92, signed as undrafted free agent grade: i (a-) it is pretty hard to evaluate a goaltender on just one game alone, thus the incomplete grade, but yet in the one start that he did get (against the calgary flames), flaherty was nothing but sharp for at least two periods. he started the season poorly in kansas city, but finished strong, prompting the blades' owner ron parker to comment that he should be a candidate for the ihl mvp honors. the upcoming ihl playoffs would be a major challenge for him as he tries to make it into the nhl; last year, he was a capable backup for arturs irbe in the throughout the season and in the turner cup playoffs, picking up all-star honors along with irbe; now it's time for him to show that he can share the job with irbe next year, because with prospects dan ryder, trevor robins, and scott cashman coming along, if he doesn't make it next year, he may not ever. #32 arturs irbe season: 1st acquired: '91-92, from minnesota in dispersal draft grade: b+ i may yet be overly critical of irbe in a year that he clearly established that he's a bona fide nhl goaltender, perhaps a bona fide #1 goaltender. he has provided most of the little highlight footage that the sharks team had, getting the team's first ever shut-out against the los angeles kings on december 26. he has been fearless in and out of the net, aggressively playing the puck and making passes, reminding people of a young ron hextall (except, of course, the goonism). yet he still needs to develop more consistency, which is hard to do with such a bad defense in front of him, but if the sharks are to challenge for a playoff spot next season, irbe's the key, as he demonstrated in being named as a star of the game 13 times in 32 starts. go calgary flames! al macinnis for norris! gary roberts for hart and smythe! go edmonton oilers! go for playoffs next year! stay in edmonton! nelson lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu) rec.sport.hockey contact for the san jose sharks 
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 |> > deg has many german-born forwards in the team. in fact the majority of players |> > are german-born. 1992-93 deg had 11150 average in 11800 spectator arena. |> interesting! one of our german friends here (robert?) told me their forwards |> were all canadian-germans. perhaps somebody can sort this out for us? as far as i know dusseldorf has only one canadian-german forward (i.e. a player who was born in canada but now has a german passport). benoit doucet became german by marriing a german and he is going to play for germany in the wc. the other canada-born forwards are: peter-john lee (has british passport) chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry (?) at the moment there are only three german-born forwards coming into my mind: bernd trunschka, andreas brockmann, ernst koepf 
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 according to the inside information, alpo suhonen won't be the next headcoach of jokerit. it's pretty sure that boris majorov will continue, although owner of the team previously said that he will chance the coach. wrong information. they just announced that suhonen has made a deal with and boris majorov has made a 1+1 year deal with tappara. 
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 good for you. you'd only be displaying your ignorance of course, but to each his own... roger, i'm not sure here, but i think "ignorance" is really a function of "a lack of knowledge" and not "formulating an opinion"...but hey, if you need to take a cheap shot, then by all means go ahead...that's if it makes you feel better. to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious. your hockey education is not my responsibility. just curious, roger, but since you have such a vast knowledge of the game and the league, how come you haven't made a living out of it? there must be a lot of demand for expertise in the field. i'm sure you'd be of great help to, say, the leafs as an assistant coach or a scout. or maybe try a career as a reporter or tv commentator... i might be wrong, of course, and you already have. jukka a virtanen juvirtan@cc.helsinki.fi university of helsinki 
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 played in scandinavium, gothenburg, april 15 1993: sweden - finland 6-6 (1-2,3-1,2-3) 1st: swe 1-0 peter popovic (markus naslund) 6:10 fin 1-1 ville siren (keijo sailynoja) 8:44 (pp) fin 1-2 juha riihijarvi (timo saarikoski,vesa viitakoski) 13:12 (pp) 2nd: fin 1-3 jari korpisalo (kari harila,rauli raitanen) 6:48 swe 2-3 jan larsson (mikael renberg,stefan nilsson) 7:25 swe 3-3 hakan ahlund (thomas rundqvist) 8:56 swe 4-3 roger akerstrom (roger hansson) 9:13 3rd: swe 5-3 stefan nilsson (patrik juhlin,charles berglund) 2:20 fin 5-4 keijo sailynoja 9:23 fin 5-5 keijo sailynoja 9:44 (ps) swe 6-5 mikael renberg (hakan ahlund,thomas rundqvist) 17:16 fin 6-6 jari korpisalo 17:44 shots on goal: penalties: attendance: referee: sweden 8 10 10 - 28 5*2min 6,799 peter andersson finland 12 10 11 - 33 6*2min,1*10min (sweden) sweden opened the scoring as markus naslund made a drop pass at the finnish blue line, popovic picked it up and advanced towards the finnish goal and shot a nice hard wrist shot in ketterer's top corner. ville siren's slap shot from the blue line on power play made it 1-1, and juha riihijarvi scored a nice goal in another power play when he close in front of goal put the puck high over aslin, 1-2 after the first period. the finns started the second period with really good pressure. korpisalo made it 1-3 with another goal from close range high over aslin. then, during the finnish pressure, sweden turned the game around in 1:47. mikael renberg worked hard behind the finnish goal, and passed the puck to jan larsson in front, who backhanded the puck low, 2-3. rundqvist entered the finnish zone and passed to ahlund, and the finnish defense let ahlund skate in and take a shot that ketterer dropped into the goal, 3-3. next, roger hansson -behind the goal- sent the puck back to the blue line where roger akerstrom took a slap shot and ketterer didn't see the puck since there was traffic in front, 4-3. third period started with a nice goal by stefan "the shadow" nilsson. stefan and patrik juhlin entered the finnish zone, patrik passed the puck back to stefan who alone with ketterer made no mistake, 5-3. then, keijo sailynoja show started. he reduce and equalized the lead in only 21 seconds! first he scored the 5-4 goal, and after that he came in alone with aslin but was tripped by aslin to get a penalty shot. sailynoja made a nice penalty shot, showed forehand and put in with a low backhand shot. the swedes seemed to head for a win when mikael renberg scored the 6-5 goal late in the game on a nice power play combination. renberg waited in the slot, showed that he wanted the puck on the backhand side, ahlund passed the puck and renberg took a turnaround shot low in ketterer's goal's far side. but jari korpisalo had other plans as he only 28 seconds later scored the game's final goal to make it 6-6. korpisalo took a slap shot from a narrow angle that -maybe- aslin should have saved. all in all, a decent game where the defense wasn't the best. both teams juggled around the lines a bit in the second and third period to try no combinations. renberg and rundqvist plays well together in the swedish team. larsson- nilsson-juhlin best line overall again, it seems to be a working wc line. stillman good on defense. some players aren't good enough for the wc though. hakan ahlund (faell ner hjaelmen och jobba!), roger hansson, challe berglund, kenny jonsson will likely have to leave for nhl pros. two-goal scorers jari korpisalo and keijo sailynoja played well in the finnish team. markus ketterer didn't have a very good game, we've seen him a lot better, so lindfors is probably finland's starting goalie in the wc. i heard that esa tikkanen will join the finnish team. it would be inter- resting to know which other pros coach matikainen counts on for the wc. starting lines: sweden finland 35. peter aslin 30. markus ketterer 8. kenneth kennholt 2. mikko haapakoski 14. fredrik stillman 3. ville siren 10. hakan ahlund 28. jarkko varvio 9. thomas rundqvist 40. mika nieminen 29. mikael renberg 18. keijo sailynoja 27. roger akerstrom 4. erik hamalainen 7. arto blomsten 8. kari harila 20. jan larsson 25. rauli raitanen 4. stefan nilsson 26. petri varis 5. patrik juhlin 14. jari korpisalo 3. peter popovic 5. timo jutila 32. stefan larsson 44. harri laurila 11. roger hansson 24. juha riihijarvi 33. fredrik nilsson 22. timo saarikoski 24. peter ottosson 11. vesa viitakoski 6. pasi sormunen 12. janne laukkanen 19. markus naslund 29. juha ylonen 21. peter forsberg 27. timo peltomaa 18. jonas bergqvist 17. marko palo played parts of the game: 22. charles berglund 15. mika alatalo 6. kenny jonsson 16. saku koivu 20. marko palo ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 3rd uptade: here are the standings for the poll after 39 votes: 5 points for 1st, 4 for 2nd,... 1 point for 5th: ea/ nhlpa game 1. det 102 2. chi 97 3. ny 74 4. van 73 5. mtl 69 6. pit 33 7. wsh 29 8. bos 21 9..asw 16 10.cgy 10 11.que 9 12.ase 8 13.wpg 7 14.la 5 otw 5 stl 5 tor 5 18.buf 3 phi 3 tby 3 21.sj 2 22.min 1 atlanta to win turner cup 1 (not in the game, but 1 person vote) 24.edm 0 htf 0 li 0 nj 0 4 teams have no point continue to send your votes in this format (until april 20th, approximately) email : iskander.ayari@loria.fr ou ayari@loria.fr 
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 a fine 26 year history came to a close tonight, as the minnesota north stars, or norm's stars (whichever you prefer) lost to the red wings by a score of 5-3. the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen, who netted two including the final one in franchise history, with less than a minute to tonight, on the air on the stars tv telecast, announcer al shaver, the voice of the north stars, stated basically that he will not follow the team to dallas. shaver, when asked by his son (who was doing the broadcast with him), "what will you do now?" responded, "first i'm going to get me a new pair of slippers. then i'm going to sit in my easy chair and watch the world go by." thank you north stars, and thank you al shaver, for 26 years of minnesota joel alvstad 
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 i can give you a couple. in detroit, wjr (760) will be broadcasting at least the first couple of games of the wings-toronto series, and since they broadcast at 50000 watts, you may be able to pick it up after dark where you are at. the pittsburgh penguins games used to be broadcast on kdka 1020, but i don't know whether they will be pre-empted by baseball (and moved to another station) or not. you can try those if the local baseball teams aren't playing at the same time, anyway. according to this morning's post-gazette: the pens will be carried by kdka-radio(1020 am), unless the pirates are playing. when the pirates play, the games will be carried by wdve(102.5 fm). wdve will carry 12 games, starting with tonight's in fact, after this season, kdka will no longer be the flagship station for the pens. the penguins and kbl have struck a new deal regarding the tv and radio rights to the games. it seems more than likely that wdve will be the flagship radio station next season. kbl will carry 62 games on tv, with 17 of the games to be simulcast on kdka-tv. the remaining 22 games, as well as some of the early round playoff games, will be available by "subscription tv" only. to receive the games, you'll have to pay a one time hook up fee, and then a monthly fee of $11-12 dollars. also, under the new deal, there will no longer be radio/tv simulcasts. there will be a tv broadcast team, and a radio broadcast team. no word on who the announcers will be. mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka, but their contracts expire at the end of this season. kbl president bill craig said he'd like to hire lange and steigerwald. contact for the penguins lli+@cs.cmu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53732">
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 so what's the deal with bill wirtz? apparently, the blackhawks - st. louis game was a standing room only sell out as usual, but the hawks reported the attendace as 16,199. gee, i wonder if wirtz is planning to use this as justification for continuing to keep home games off of tv? what a schmuck. in other tv news, the penguins announced yesterday that they will have 3 fewer broadcast tv games, and will have 22(!) games on some sort of subscription / pay-per-view system. yuck. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53733">
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 |> : >and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, |> : >resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other |> : >team captain trivia would be appreciated. |> : wasn't ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to |> : pittsburgh? |> and rick tochett was the captain of the flyers when traded to the pens |> recently... and of course, mike ramsey was (at one time) the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh. currently, the penguins have 3 former captains and 1 real captain (lemieux) playing for them. they rotate the a's during the season (and even the c while mario was out). even troy loney has worn the c for the pens. john w. huber, jr. - aka jay | penguins - 1991,1992 stanley cup champions software engineering institute | pirates - 1990,1991,1992 nl east champions sei 3409 (412) 268-3550 | mastercraft - the only boat for skiing 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53734">
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 it was nice to see espn show game 1 between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out. instead of showing another baseball game, they decided on the stanley cup playoffs. a classy move by espn. what, did you leave the room each of the 100 or so times they said that there were no other night baseball games? every break they took back at the studio mentioned it, followed by 'so...we're gonna show you hockey instead.' my wife and i are hoping for rain at every baseball game they have a feed for tommorrow night... point is, be glad they showed hockey, but if baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would've watched baseball last night. pete clark 
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 : > i loved the abc coverage. the production was excellent. the appearance : >was excellent. it had a sleek modern look. this was the first time i heard : >thorne & clement & i thought they were great. my only request is to leave : >al micheals out of this. he annoys me. : i was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised at the : coverage. i was particularly impressed by the close range camera coverage : of work in the corners and behind the play without losing a beat getting : back to the puck. boy - everyone has been ripping on espn's hockey coverage (or is it just pittsburgher's who are thrilled with lange & steigy?) for all of you who are unaware -> espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production, advertising sales, commentating, etc -> and even reaped any $ made... 
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 however, that aside, the real question is whether you like the idea of changing the names based on the reasons given for it (making it easier for the 'casual fan'), or whether you like the idea of unique divisional names based on individuals who do deserve the honour. imo, the latter is a nice and unique touch that differs from other sports. in addition, i do not think that changing divisional names will have an effect on the number of people that are interested in hockey, so it's a pointless exercise anyway. there are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the fans. i feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages. and of course, they would not appear nearly as confusing to one approaching the sport for the first time. another thing that bothers me is the points system. percentages, as used in the other major sports are clearly more informative. when i look at the nhl standings the first thing i have to do is make a quick calculation to account for games in hand (which is almost always the case). some will object to percentages, claiming perhaps, that it is an "americanization" of the sport but i feel that using percentages is more informative and whether it is "american" or not is irrelevant. if the current names are inappropriate, then that is a separate issue, not central to the original article. something to consider additionally is whether or not players like orr who 'contributed to the glory of the sport' would have been able to do so _without_ an organized professional league to play in. in this case, honouring builders of the _league_ as opposed to builders of the _sport_ becomes a chicken-and-egg type question. (although it was the chicken.....) even if orr couldn't have contributed without the likes of norris, you would have to agree that norris couldn't have contributed without the likes of orr. and taking a poll of most fans would quickly tell you who the fans feel made the more meaningful contribution. exactly true. naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch is the same kind of nepotism that put stein in the hall of fame. i have always thought that this was nonsense. dunno if the stein comparison is justifiable, since it doesn't look as though his 'unanimous acceptance' to the hall will hold up. it doesn't look as if the division names are going to hold up either does it? cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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 and of course, mike ramsey was (at one time) the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh. currently, the penguins have 3 former captains and 1 real captain (lemieux) playing for them. they rotate the a's during the season (and even the c while mario was out). even troy loney has worn the c for the pens. i had heard(perhaps incorrectly) that while lemieux was out, noone wore a c on their jersey. the as took turns doing captain duties(whatever they are). scott... scott.marks@launchpad.unc.edu scott.marks@launchpad.unc.edu the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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 and now, i interrupt your regularly scheduled news reading to bring you another message sponsored by the department of really mundane statistics: i passed the final individual player stats posted here the other day through a filter to average out games, goals, assists, points, and penalty minutes for the mythical average nhl pro who played in the league this season. (why? because it's monday and i didn't feel like writing any real code...) anyway, after i wiped out the 60-odd goalies in the list, i came up with: nhl average: 55 gp 11 g 19 a 30 pts 69 pim then i passed the list through a second time to come up with the players who had the smallest percentage difference in each of the categories. marty mcinnis (nyi) 56 gp (1%) 10 g (9%) 20 a (5%) 30 pts (0%) 24 pim (65%) igor kravchuk (edm) 55 gp (0%) 10 g (9%) 17 a (10%) 27 pts (9%) 27 pim (53%) these two are close in games, goals, assists, and points, but are too far off in pim. this leaves, as the most average player in the nhl: bobby carpenter (was) 65 gp (18%) 11 g (0%) 17 a (10%) 28 pts (6%) 63 pim (8%) what an honor. i also passed the list through with the goalies still included. kravchuk and carpenter were still in the top three, but rob dimaio came flying up from behind to take the title: nhl average: 53 gp 10 g 17 a 27 pts 64 pim igor kravchuk (edm) 55 gp (3%) 10 g (0%) 17 a (0%) 27 pts (0%) 27 pim (50%) bobby carpenter (was) 65 gp (22%) 11 g (10%) 17 a (0%) 28 pts (3%) 63 pim (1%) rob dimaio (tb) 54 gp (1%) 9 g (9%) 15 a (11%) 24 pts (11%) 62 pim (3%) it's all really kind of underwhelming when you think about it. and now, back to our regularly scheduled programming... 
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 and of course, mike ramsey was (at one time) the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh. currently, the penguins have 3 former captains and 1 real captain (lemieux) playing for them. they rotate the a's during the season (and even the c while mario was out). even troy loney has worn the c for the pens. i think that mike foligno was the captain of the sabres when he got traded to the leafs. also, wasn't rick vaive the captain of the leafs when he got traded to chicago (with steve thomas for ed olcyzk and someone). speaking of the leafs, i believe that darryl sittler was their captain (he'd torn the "c" off his jersey but i think he re-claimed the captaincy later on) when he was traded to the flyers. oh yeah, of course, gretzky was the captain of the oilers before he was traded wasn't he? 
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 toronto 1 1 1--3 detroit 1 4 1--6 first period 1, detroit, yzerman 1 (gallant, ciccarelli) 4:48. 2, toronto, cullen 1 (clark, gill) 10:44. second period 3, detroit, sheppard 1 (probert, coffey) pp, 5:04. 4, detroit, burr 1 (racine) sh, 6:42. 5, detroit, chiasson 1 (coffey) pp,11:00. 6, detroit, howe 1 (yzerman, drake) 14:46. 7, toronto, gilmour 1 (borschevsky, ellett) pp, 19:59. third period 8, detroit, racine 1 (primeau, drake) 5:10. 9, toronto, lefebvre 1 (cullen, pearson) 7:45. detroit: 6 power play: 6-2 special goals: pp: 2 sh: 1 total: 3 scorer g a pts burr 1 0 1 chiasson 1 0 1 ciccarelli 0 1 1 coffey 0 2 2 drake 0 2 2 gallant 0 1 1 howe 1 0 1 primeau 0 1 1 probert 0 1 1 racine 1 1 2 sheppard 1 0 1 yzerman 1 1 2 toronto: 3 power play: 5-1 scorer g a pts borschevsky 0 1 1 clark 0 1 1 cullen 1 1 2 ellett 0 1 1 gill 0 1 1 gilmour 1 0 1 lefebvre 1 0 1 pearson 0 1 1 winnipeg 1 0 1--2 vancouver 2 0 2--4 first period 1, vancouver, adams 1 (linden, bure) pp, 1:23. 2, vancouver, craven 1 (bure, murzyn) 9:56. 3, winnipeg, steen 1 (shannon, housley) pp, 17:53. second period no scoring. third period 4, winnipeg, king 1 (barnes) 3:43. 5, vancouver, linden 1(courtnall, mclean) 12:16. 6, vancouver, ronning 1 (courtnall) 18:31. vancouver: 4 power play: 6-1 scorer g a pts adams 1 0 1 bure 0 2 2 courtnall 0 2 2 craven 1 0 1 linden 1 1 2 mclean 0 1 1 murzyn 0 1 1 ronning 1 0 1 winnipeg: 2 power play: 3-1 scorer g a pts barnes 0 1 1 housley 0 1 1 king 1 0 1 shannon 0 1 1 steen 1 0 1 
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 (detroit, april 19) in a development that shocked most knowledgable observers, the detroit redwings scored no less than six goals against the best goaltender in the world en route to a 6-3 win over the best team in the nhl, the toronto maple leafs. not only that, but if i'm not mistaken detroit scored 4 goals on their first five shots on net...looks like toronto's cream cheese run continues (or is that swiss cheese? after watching potvin i'm leaning towards the latter) 
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 does anyone have the games espn will be airing this week??? hopefully the detroit/toronto game tongiht. i though abc did a decent job by getting some f**king *no* hockey games televised nationally tonight! what the hell is this??? why the hell is espn showing some stupid baseball game, when baseball is not even three weeks into the season and hockey is in the playoffs??? no, wait, i know the answer: $$$$$$ but still! it really pisses me off to no end. they better start putting some more f*cking games on, or they will never make any money off of the deal that brought hockey back to espn. aargh!!!! (not that i'd watch anyway, but hockey needs all the publicity it can get) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "a cow is not a vegetarian dish." -- keith keller, 1993 you obviously don't understand how tv scheduling works. espn had prior contracts to baseball to show monday night games and had contracted all the other bs shows well in advance. the nhl tv deal was very late in the scheduling process (you normally have to do this one-plus year out. the nhl package was finished two weeks before the season started). espn has shown tremendous commitment to the nhl by squeezing in extra telecasts when it could (like the last minnesota game) and putting stanley cup games as backup to their baseball telecasts (which by favorable circumstances they could pull off last night). but the bottom line is that espn cannot break contracts at will. they must honor the previous deals they made. $$$$ _does_ have something to do with it, especially if you risk a $$$$$$$$ lawsuit for breach of contract with baseball. so relax. i'm happy. (i don't get sportschannel anyway). -tom galvin galvint@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil 
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 us easterners who have newspapers with editors unsympathetic to playoff pools, often don't get summaries from west coast games since they finish too late at night for the morning edition. i (and i'm sure others too) would greatly appreciate it if scoring summaries of west coast playoff games could be posted to this group right away. basically, all we need are goal scorers and assists, don't bother with times, penalties, shots etc... this would make a lot of pool-obsessed people very i guess with the senators out golfing now, the local papers have lost interest. ;-) 
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 1992-93 los angeles kings notes and game reports. kings 6 @ calgary flames 3 - 04/18/93 the third place kings opened the 1993 stanley cup playoffs in calgary, against the second place flames and came out with an impressive 6-3 victory in front of a non-sellout crowd of 18,605 at the saddledome in calgary. symthe division playoff hockey this was. both teams seemed a bit tense in the opening period though the kings scored off the opening face-off. the kings got into the flow of the game much earlier than the flames as they played out- standing team defense. it took the flames 9:45 of the first period to record their first shot on goal. the kings, ranked 16th of the 16 playoff teams on penalty killing, shut down the flames. the flames went 0-8 on the power play and could record only 8 shot on goal in those 8 opportunities. the kings had their problems on the power play, yet they did manager to score 2 goals in 10 the kings forwards back-checked while the defense stood the flames up at the blue line, allowing the kings to take took the home ice advantage away from the flames. rob blake missed the game due to the lower back contusion but is ex- pected to be in the lineup on wednesday. wayne gretzky suffered a charlie horse in his right leg. he took a few shifts in the second period before retiring to the dressing room for the rest of the game. interviewed on the radio this morning, he stated that he was fine and would be in the lineup on wednesday. 1st period: 1-0. the kings got things started right off the opening face-off. gretzky won the draw with the puck going to sydor. he crossed center ice and slapped the puck into the flames zone and behind the net. the puck carried around to the far side where robitaille wacked at it and the rebound bounced to sandstrom. he put the puck behind the flames net where gretzky picked it up. gretzky set up in 'his office', moved to the near side and passed into the near circle where sydor had moved in. sydor, who got the puck between the face-off dot and the hash mark, shot off the pass, beating vernon low and between the legs. millen and fleury went off at 4:57. skrudland went off at 12:25 but the kings failed to convert. carson went off at 14:53 and the flames failed to convert. dahlquist went off at 18:34 and dahl went off at 19:30, giving the kings a 30 second 5on3 which they failed to convert. the kings recorded 2 goal posts in the period. 2nd period: the kings opened with a 5on3 carried over from the 1st period which they failed to convert on. with 6 seconds left in the 5on4, vernon put a bouncing puck into the stands and received a delay of game. 1-1. calgary evened the score on the ensuing kings power play. kurri, with the puck in the neutral zone, tried to put the puck into the flames zone but it hit the stick of fleury and bounced to suter at the flames blue line. suter skated down the near wing and into the kings zone. he faked a shot at the circle and skated around kurri. as he cut thorugh the crease, he got hrudey to go with him and he put the puck behind hrudey, on his stick side for a short hander. 2-1. the kings reclaimed the lead 25 seconds later on the same power play. shuchuk, in the far circle passed to sydor at the top of the slot and headed for the net. sydors shot hit shuchuk in the back and dropped into the low slot where 2 kings (shuchuk and granato) were being checked by 3 flames. carson came from the far corner, picked up the loose puck and snapped a wrist shot between the legs of vernon from 5 feet above the crease. 3-1. the kings widened their lead just 24 seconds later. rychel was checked off the puck at the flames blue line. taylor picked up the puck and sent a pass cross the slot to huddy. huddy shot off the pass, from the near face-off dot, beating a diving vernon on the glove side. 4-1. 2:59 later, the kings had a 3 goal lead. mcsorley took a shot form the near point that hit a flame and deflected towards the boards. marty got his own rebound, skated to the bottom of the circle and sent a pass into the low slot that hit dahlquist on the leg and deflected past the stick of vernon. skrudland went off at 10:53 but the kings could not convert. sydor went off at 12:35 and watters went off at 14:40, giving the flames a 5 second 5-3 but they failed to convert. mcsorley went off at 17:19 and the flames had 3 consecutive power plays but the flames killed it themselves when suter went off for high sticking at 17:31. sandstrom went off at 18:03 to close out the period. the kings hit 3 goal post in the period. 3rd period: the kings used the phrase "initiate, not retaliate" and it was very evident here in the 3rd period as the kings continued to pound the body and the flames continued to take bad penalties to take themselves out of the game. 5-1. the kings extended their lead to 4 goals at the 1:06 mark. the kings shot the puck into the near corner of the flames zone. vernon went behind the net to cut off the puck but he could not control it. donnelly, who was behind him, wacked at the puck, sending it into the low slot. as vernon slid back in to the crease, granato got a shot that hit a flame and bounced to the left of the net where millen fired the rebound behind vernon. sydor went off at 1:24; nieuwendyk went off at 3:22 as the teams skated 4 on 4. 5-2. otto, skating down the far side, stepped around mcsorley, cut to the net and passed to dahlquist in the low slot. dahlquist cut through the top of the crease and put the puck in under a diving hrudey. carson and rychel came in on a 2-1. when carson passed across to rychel, fleury tripped rychel with no call. the puck got shoveled into the far corner where fleury knocked rychel down and checked him from behind into the boards, drawing a 5-minute major and a game misconduct at the 6:08 mark. unfortunately, the kings squandered the 5 minute power play when granato (at 6:44) and watters (at 8:19) took penalties. 5-3. the flames closed to within 2 at the 8:47 mark. macinnis, at the near point, passed to yawney at the far point. he took a few strides towards the net, wound up and drove a shot off the near post and in over the glove of hrudey. the play started on another faceoff that the kings lost. timeout - la. 6-3. macinnis took a penalty at 9:56 and the kings converted on the power play to seal the victory. sandstrom, skating down the far wing in the flames zone cut towards the back of the net. just as he crossed the goal line, he passed the puck into the low slot, on the far side, to carson who shot off the pass, beating vernon on the ice, stick side. at the 16:17 mark, skrudland went off for slashing and stern went crazy as he went after shuchuk. stern wound up with a double minor for roughing, a single minor for cross checking and a 10 minute misconduct, and he took the flames right out of the game. on the plus side: the kings, for the most part, played very disciplined hockey as they let calgary retaliate. the kings played good team defense and excellent penalty killing. on the minus side: the kings lost almost every face-off. this must improve or the flames will surely get that power play back on track. notes: the kings recalled guy leveque, brandy semchuk and jim thomson from phoenix. wayne gretzkys 1st period assist was his 307th career playoff point. the kings entered the game 24th in the league in shots per game against, giving the opposing team an average of 34.4 shots per game. flames goaltender mike vernon entered the game with a 3-9-1 record in afternoon games. the flames entered the game with a 34% success rate on the power play over their last 9 games. the teams were 3-3-1 against each other in the regular season. playoffs: campbell conference: smythe division: la 6 @ cal 3 la leads 1-0 win @ van norris division: stl 4 @ chi 3 stl leads 1-0 tor @ det wales conference: adams division: buf 5 @ bos 4 (ot) buf leads 1-0 mon 2 @ que 3 (ot) que leads 1-0 patrick division: nj 3 @ pit 6 pit leads 1-0 nyi 1 @ was 3 was leads 1-0 records: vs smythe norris patrck adams overall home: 0- 0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 0- 0-0 road: 1- 0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 1- 0-0 total: 1- 0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0 1- 0-0 box score: calgary 0 1 2 - 3 los angeles 1 3 2 - 6 1st period: la sydor 1 (gretzky, sandstrom), 0:16 la millen - high sticking, 4:57 cal fleury - high sticking, 4:57 cal skrudland - interference, 12:25 la carson - tripping 14:53 cal dahlquist - holding stick, 18:34 cal dahl - roughing 19:30 2nd period: cal verson - delay of game (served by ashton), 1:34 cal suter 1 (fleury), 2:48 (sh) la carson 1 (shuchuk, sydor), 3:13 (pp) la huddy 1 (taylor, rychel), 3:37 la mcsorley 1 (unassisted), 6:36 cal skrudland - elbowing, 10:53 la sydor - tripping, 12:35 la watters- hooking, 14:40 la mcsorley - holding, 17:19 cal suter - high sticking, 17:31 la sandstrom - hooking, 18:03 3rd period: la millen 1 (granato, donnelly), 1:06 la sydor - hooking, 1:24 cal nieuwendyk - tripping, 3:22 cal dahlquist 1 (otto), 4:23 cal fleury - major (boarding), game misconduct, 6:08 la granato - tripping, 6:44 la watters - interference, 8:19 cal yawney 1 (macinnis, reichel), 8:47 cal macinnis - roughing, 9:56 la carson 2 (sandstrom, robitaille), 10:32 (pp) la hardy - holding, 11:38 cal skrudland - slashing, 16:17 cal stern - double roughing, cross-checking, 10 min. misconduct, 16:17 overtime: none shots: los angeles 8 9 14 - 31 calgary 5 8 11 - 24 power play conversions: for: 2 of 10; for the year: 2 of 10, 20.00% against: 0 of 8; for the year: 8 of 8, 100.00% goalies: los angeles - hrudey (1-0-0) calgary - vernon (0-1-0) attendance: 18,605 scratches: rob blake - back contusion guy leveque - numbers lonnie loach - numbers marc potvin - numbers brandy semchuk - numbers robb stauber - numbers brent thompson - numbers jim thomson - numbers lines - forwards: *robitaille - gretzky - sandstrom donnelly - millen - kurri rychel - conacher - taylor granato - carson - shuchuk lines - defense: *huddy - sydor watters - zhitnik hardy - mcsorley * denotes starting lineup next game: wednesday, april 21 @ calgary flames; 6:30pm pacific time on prime ticket stan willis (willis@empire.dnet.hac.com) net contact: l.a. kings talk with the l.a. kings mailing list ...... kings@cs.stanford.edu to subscribe or unsubscribe: ....... kings-request@cs.stanford.edu 
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 i also think that they will have a hard time with pittsburgh if they face them in the finals (which is what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting). although i think bryan murray is probably the best gm i have ever seen in hockey, i'm not as impressed with his abilities as a bench coach or in general as a motivator. with the amount of talent he has on this team, he should have blown away everyone in the norris. there is not another team in the norris, maybe even in the campbell conference, that can hold a candle to detroit on paper in terms of pure talent. but, some guys have not been pulling their weight at times this year. scotty bowman, on the other hand, who has won (i think, correct me if i'm wrong) nine (9) stanley cups, is an outstanding coach, and i think he could outcoach murray if they faced each other. bryan murray has done very little as gm...yzerman, fedorov, cheveldae, chaisson, the whole russian strategy was a product of the previous gm...murray has made a couple of decent trades...that's about it... that would hardly rank him as the best gm. wasn't primeau, murray's first decision as gm... 
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 i think that jack ferreira's firing eventually led to kingston's firing. you mention consistency of vision. i think the sharks lost that with the loss of ferreira. there has never been a 3 headed g.m. that has ever worked. you need one person making the personnel decisions at the top, not management by committee. the conventional wisdom from around the league is that ferreira would have made the moves that would have fielded a better product on the ice. how exactly would ferreira accomplished this? the three-headed gm-ship has taken a lot of heat, but nobody's explained how things would have been any different had ferreira still been there. would ferreira have made more trades? who would have he had traded? would he have made fewer trades? who should not have been traded? sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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 is there an award for "best back-up behind a hockey great"? underneath all the hype about lemieux, stevens, jagr, ulf, etc., ron francis has quietly put together a 100 point season (24 goals and 76 assists in 84 games). that was probably the best acquisition the penguins have made since getting lemieux (apologies to rick tocchet, who has had a hell of a year himself). the pens got just the right person at just the right time when they got francis before the playoffs two years ago to back-up mario. who was the second-line center before they got francis? i remember randy gilhen (who really plays tough, an ace in the face-off circle), but nobody with all the skills francis has: scoring, passing, winning face-offs, and putting 100% into every game, every night. just wanted to glow a i know what you mean! i glow everytime ronnie's out on the ice. in fact, one of the neatest things about seeing the pens in person is that i can key in on him instead of watching what i'd probably be seeing on tv. he does so many subtle things behind the play. he said in an interview recently that when he was a kid his dad stressed the importance of playing two-way hockey; that you have to learn how to play defense as well as offense and he obviously took that advice to heart. he was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in pittsburgh to the team whose forwards, for the most part, couldn't and wouldn't play a lick of defense. it's really difficult to assess what the key trades were that brought all of this success to the pens. you mention rick tocchet and he has certainly helped, and even ol' kjell has been steady. but looking at this team you could almost take any one of them out of the line-up permanently and replace them with an extremely mediocre player and it wouldn't matter. if i had to pick the top three acquisitions in recent years they would be 1) tom barrasso; 2) ron francis; 3) larry murphy. (i'd love to put francis first but i do think the only thing that could really damage the pens right now would be to lose barrasso.) 
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 next, a clip was shown from an earlier episode, in which don was proclaiming doug gilmour to be the best player, not only in the nhl, but in the world. what about players like lemieux? don said that gilmour was the best player, not "designated point getter". its not like baseball, where you have a "designatted hitter" who can score runs but can't play defense. gilmour is a good two way player. what can you expect from a buffoon who said that the pens should have drafted kirk muller instead of mario lemieux? perhaps once upon a time don cherry had some insight into the game of hockey, but he's really degenerated into a parody of himself. sherri nichols snichols@adobe.com 
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 on all replays, joe murphy's goal shouldn't have counted ! the game would have ended in 2-2 tie ! i thought the red light went on...thus, in the review, the presumption would be to find conclusive evidence that the puck did not go in the net...from the replays i say, even from the rear, the evidence wasn't conclusive that the puck was in or out...in my opinion... i was under the impression that the objective is to find conclusive evidence that the puck _did_ cross the line. and, the replays i saw showed fairly conclusively that the puck did _not_ cross the goal line at any time anyway. somebody screwed up. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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 it was nice to see espn show game 1 between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out. instead of showing another baseball game, they decided on the stanley cup playoffs. a classy move by espn. it was good to see the wings play, but lets not give espn too much credit. there weren't any other late baseball games on so they didn't have another eric sebastian go pens... 
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 thorne is good and i've always been a fan of clement (but i miss mike emrick!). my boyfriend, who is not a hockey fan, even looked up at one point and said, "these guys are pretty good announcers." (this is the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson...:) did your boyfriend comment on the fact that clement looks like a walking ad for brillo pad hair replacement therapy? the guy's just a stuffed shirt who thinks he's the greatest hockey analyst since howie meeker (for gosh sakes). i'll take schoenie any day. george ferguson arpa: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu dept. of computer science uucp: rutgers!rochester!ferguson university of rochester vox: (716) 275-2527 rochester ny 14627-0226 fax: (716) 461-2018 
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 it was nice to see espn show game 1 between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out. instead of showing another baseball game, they decided on the stanley cup playoffs. a classy move by espn. they tried their best not to show it, believe me. i'm surprised they couldn't find a sprint car race (mini cars through pigpens, indeed!) on short notice. george ferguson arpa: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu dept. of computer science uucp: rutgers!rochester!ferguson university of rochester vox: (716) 275-2527 rochester ny 14627-0226 fax: (716) 461-2018 
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 it was nice to see espn show game 1 between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out. instead of showing another baseball game, they decided on the stanley cup playoffs. a classy move by espn. the only reason espn showed that hockey came was because there was no other baseball game scheduled for the evening. r_turgeo@oz.plymouth.edu * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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 boy - everyone has been ripping on espn's hockey coverage (or is it just pittsburgher's who are thrilled with lange & steigy?) for all of you who are unaware -> espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production, advertising sales, commentating, etc -> and even reaped any $ made... no, caleb, it's not the quality of espn that i have a problem with; it is superb, whereas it did not evolve beyond the point where espn left off when hockey went to sc (this is excepting sc's use of feeds from cbc (-;). it's the amount of hockey they're showing, or lack of it, that we're complaining about. they had rights to two ot's that could've been shown on sunday night after baseball ... and they had pickup trucks racing through oversized pigpens followed by super-8 home movies of old car races (yes, i was checking in desperation for canucks-jets) last night after sportscenter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 i was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised at the coverage. i was particularly impressed by the close range camera coverage of work in the corners and behind the play without losing a beat getting back to the puck. thorne is good and i've always been a fan of clement (but i miss mike emrick!). my boyfriend, who is not a hockey fan, even looked up at one point and said, "these guys are pretty good announcers." (this is the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson...:) i have one complaint for the cameramen doing the jersey-pitt series: show the shots, not the hits. on more than one occassion the camera zoomed in on a check along the boards while the puck was in the slot. they panned back to show the rebound. maybe mom's camera people were a little more joseph stiehm 
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 not to mention, mr. francis is an incredibly nice person. over christmas break, a friend of mine had a little xmas gathering. the two of us drove to ron's house. while i stayed in the car out of shyness, my friend went to the door and rang the bell. ron answered and my friend introduced himself. he then proceeded to invite francis to the party. ron declined because he "had to watch his daughter." he then reached out and shook my friend's hand! i know this isn't r.s.b., but i don't think barry bonds would be this polite in this situation. 
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 i finally got it back, with great thanks to mark spiegel for saving and sending #2 rob zettler season: 4th acquired: '91-92, from minnesota in dispersal draft grade: c/c- zettler gave the sharks every bit he's got this year; unfortunately, this still wasn't enough to make him any more than a marginal nhler, if that. he works hard, for sure, but is no better than average on defense, and is prone to costly penalties and defensive lapses at times, while being basically an offensive zero (0 goal and 7 assists in 79 games). he would be hardpressed to make the team next year. #3 david williams season: 2nd acquired: '91-92, free agent from new jersey grade: c/c- imo, williams was the most valuable defenseman for the sharks in '91-92, playing a combination of good offense (3 goals and 25 assists in 56 games) and good defense. but he, playing the first part of this season in kansas city, was good neither offensively nor defensively this year; it, then, appears that '91-92 was a fluke. although he improved towards the end of the season, he was prone to being out of position defensively, and did not demonstrate the playmaking skills that made him the team's leading scorer among defensemen last year. he would also be hardpressed to make the team next year. #4 jayson more season: 2nd acquired: '91-92, from montreal in expansion draft grade: b+ after being touted as the team's top defensive prospects in training camp before '91-92, more had a rather disappointing '91-92, as he was not particularly good defensively, and had just 17 points in 46 games. he, then, proceeded to improve his game massively this season, becoming the team's most reliable defenseman, whom the team can count on night in and night out to play steady defense and providing occasional (but only occasional) offensive flash. offensively, he was even more disappointing than last year (11 points in 73 games), but his defense improved tremendously. he is probably best as the defensive part of a defense combination with an offensive defenseman. #5 neil wilkinson season: 4th acquired: '91-92, from minnesota in dispersal draft grade: b- wilkinson was probably the team's top defensive defenseman in '91-92. however, partially because of injuries, he was not the same this year, as he missed 25 games total due to nagging knee and back injuries, and seemed to be slowed even when playing. he, then, had often to be saved by his defensive partners; that is, if they are there at all. but he also had some solid games, and if he can be complete healthy, he can still be a force. #6 sandis ozolinsh season: 1st acquired: '91-92, 2nd round pick in entry draft grade: i (a) at the time of his injury (december 30, against the philadelphia flyers), ozolinsh was well on track to be, imo, the team's mvp. a serious knee injury in that game, though, forced him to miss the rest of the season (47 games), but he still finished as the team's top scorer among defensemen (23 points), which, of course, tells more about the lack of offense the sharks had from their defensemen, but it also tells of ozolinsh's abilities. at the time, he was playing very good defense along with excellent offense; he was still susceptible to so-called "rookie mistakes," but was probably the defenseman who made the least of them on the team, rookie or veteran. if he can come back from his injuries, he is ready to be a star. #19 doug zmolek season: 1st acquired: '91-92, from minnesota in dispersal draft grade: b zmolek had basically a solid and durable year, being one of the only two sharks to play in all 84 games of the season. he was solid on defense, but after being billed as an offensive defenseman, he didn't show it (15 points). he was also prone to penalties, and his 229 penalty minutes was second on the team; however, that was also an indication that he was fearly when facing tough physical opponents, and he was at his best when playing physically. but to become a fixture in this league, he needs to improve both offensively and defensively, and cut down on the number of power-plays he gives to opponents. go calgary flames! al macinnis for norris! gary roberts for hart and smythe! go edmonton oilers! go for playoffs next year! stay in edmonton! nelson lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu) rec.sport.hockey contact for the san jose sharks 
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 |> > deg has many german-born forwards in the team. in fact the majority of players |> > are german-born. 1992-93 deg had 11150 average in 11800 spectator arena. |> interesting! one of our german friends here (robert?) told me their forwards |> were all canadian-germans. perhaps somebody can sort this out for us? as far as i know dusseldorf has only one canadian-german forward (i.e. a player who was born in canada but now has a german passport). benoit doucet became german by marriing a german and he is going to play for germany in the wc. the other canada-born forwards are: peter-john lee (has british passport) chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry (?) at the moment there are only three german-born forwards coming into my mind: bernd trunschka, andreas brockmann, ernst koepf hm, do you think dusseldorf fans would like it if their team joined the nhl? or do we have to include koln as well (cologne to you anglophiles) to make them happy?:-) marcu$ 
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 need i say more??????? 
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 and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other team captain trivia would be appreciated. wasn't ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to chris chelios was montreal's co-captain with guy carbonneau when he was traded to chicago for denis savard, and peter stastny was captain of the quebec nordiques when he was traded to new-jersey. also mark messier was captain of the edmonton oilers when he was traded to new-york. how about dale hawerchuk with winnipeg when he was traded to buffalo, was he captain too ? i think so. i should not forget wayne (you know who) when he was traded to l.a. he was captain. didn't they strip wendel clark of his capta incy in toronto ? just some updates and thoughts. cheer... daniel piche (lmc/u/det - design) ericsson communications inc. 8400 decarie blvd, 1rd floor town of mont royal, quebec. h4p 2n2 (514)-738-8300 ext. 2178. e-mail: lmcdapi@lmc.ericsson.se memoid: lmc.lmcdapi cheers..... 
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 the detroit red wings put a lot of doubter on ice tonight with a 6 - 3 washing of the toronto maple leafs. all you toronto fans have now seen the power of the mighty red wing offense. toronto's defense in no match for the wing offense. as for the defense, probert, kennedey and primeau came out did they move probert back to defense? why did i see him parking his ass in front of potvin all night? somebody is going to have to discipline probert if the leafs want to win the series. perhaps a fresh clark should hit the ice at the end of a long probert shift and straigten him out for a while... during the regular season, when the intensity is down, not many teams have forwards who will continually go and park themselves in front of the opposing teams net...and the inadequacy of the leafs defense in this regard thus didn't matter...however, the playoffs are a different story...every good team is going to have players who are going to become potted plants in front of potvin...and the leafs relatively unphysical defensive core will finally be exposed as weak an inept. hard work will go a long way during the regular season...almost to 100 points...and the leafs deserve credit for that...but in the playoffs talent matters, because everyone begins working hard. 
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 according to this morning's post-gazette: the pens will be carried by kdka-radio(1020 am), unless the pirates are playing. when the pirates play, the games will be carried by wdve(102.5 fm). wdve will carry 12 games, starting with tonight's in fact, after this season, kdka will no longer be the flagship station for the pens. the penguins and kbl have struck a new deal regarding the tv and radio rights to the games. it seems more than likely that wdve will be the flagship radio station next season. kbl will carry 62 games on tv, with 17 of the games to be simulcast on kdka-tv. the remaining 22 games, as well as some of the early round playoff games, will be available by "subscription tv" only. to receive the games, you'll have to pay a one time hook up fee, and then a monthly fee of $11-12 dollars. also, under the new deal, there will no longer be radio/tv simulcasts. there will be a tv broadcast team, and a radio broadcast team. no word on who the announcers will be. mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka, but their contracts expire at the end of this season. kbl president bill craig said he'd like to hire lange and steigerwald. contact for the penguins lli+@cs.cmu.edu nooooooooooooooooo! who's the mindscheme(?) behind this one -- ted simmons? as the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." i'm 230 miles from home (during the school year) and will never be able to pick up dve. at least now i can sort of make out what mike and steigy say through all the static on kdka. this just may be enough reason for me to transfer to duquesne and live at home. who's going to announce on dve anyway? paulson and krenn? (just kidding.) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53793">
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 what are the leafs to do? i am a leaf supporter and i say the leafs are going down in four unless there is nothing short of a miracle or a stroke of genenius hits pat burns. if you were pat burns what would you do? living in the bay area, i do not get enough leaf coverage to pull something out of the bag, (i would appreciate comments on the leaf/detroit 3rd line match-ups) but here is the basic idea... andreychuck and borchevsky have no business playing against the wings. they are too small. the key to any leafs success will have to be clark. he is the only centre who can have any presence within 3-stick lengths of the slot. where the hell is anderson? anderson can (in days past) get under peoples skin. put a little more bluntly, anderson has to be an asshole. he used to be good at it. we need him now. perhaps, perhaps the leafs can shut down detroit's second line. i was dissappointed to see shepard and yserbeart flying last night. these guys are the "swing" players for the wings. last year they did a major choke in the playoffs and were to blame for the quick exit of the wings. **this has to happen again**. clark-anderson-gilmour should be able to out hustle this line. anderson should do a nasty on yserbeart. clark should bang the hell out of sheppard. score gilmour score! suggestions: clarke-anderson-gilmour vs. sheppard-yserbeart-?? andreychuck-borchevsy-?? vs. detroit checking line toronto's checking line vs. yzerman-fedorov-probert (pray lots) * as suggested - i would bench andreychuck and borchevsky to stir things up and through a monkey wrench into detroits game plan. however, if the detroit coaching would be dumb enough to play their checking line against these "finesse" players - well then let them play. ** potvin can not be faulted on 5 of the goals - keep him in. ** van hellamond can not be faulted for the leafs demise either. ** the wings defense shut down the leafs (especially in the slot). i hope pat burns realizes that his team was out-hit, out-skated, and out-coached on monday night. this was not a loss because of poor goaltending or officiating. this calls for drastic measures ... or tee off is next monday. go leafs !!! 
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 in a previous article, 35002_2765@uwovax.uwo.ca () says: cbc had a great chance for some double headers: toronto/detroit and vancouver/winnipeg, but today they said that the east gets the leafs and the west get the vancouver game. i thought that they would show them i'm totally p*-o'd, too! vancouver-winnipeg is great west-coast hockey - fast-paced and loads of talent. what i've seen so far is hardly entertaining, with the exception of the odd shift every now & then (of course i missed calgary-la & pitts-jersey...) no, because the pinheads at cbc figure everyone here in ontario cares for the leafs, the maple leafs, and nothing but the leafs. half of southern ontario is people who moved from out west, but the good folks in toronto couldn't care less. they should show the doubleheader (heck the second game would have two canadian teams!), and let those desperate for news watch the national on newsworld, but they don't. why? because canada ends at windsor, don'cha know! grrrrr. amen... now i have to get updates every 30 mins. on cnn headline news, for crying out loud... that's cheaper than what i do - phone calls. (there must be a better system - one ring, adams to linden, he scores; two rings bure rushes up the ice, he scores, etc etc :-)) ad215@freenet.carleton.ca (rachel holme)] 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53798">
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 bryan murray has done very little as gm...yzerman, fedorov, cheveldae, chaisson, the whole russian strategy was a product of the previous gm...murray has made a couple of decent trades...that's about it... that would hardly rank him as the best gm. there are many teams in the nhl who have taken a liking to russian players. the "whole russian strategy" is not specific to detroit or to devellano, who was gm before murray. what the previous gm also did was to trade away several players who have gone on to do well with other teams, most notably (in my memory) murray craven, who had a few very good years with philly after leaving here. also, it's not the volume of trades that will necessarily improve a team, but the quality of them. trading adam oates for bernie federko was just plain stupid, even if federko used to be a great player at one time. most of murray's trades have worked significantly to the wings' advantage, with those that didn't being soured mainly by injury to the players involved (such as troy crowder, who suffered back problems from which he never really recovered). devallano went earlier and more extensively to the russian strategy than anyone else...and was the first gm to "waste" high draft choices on young russians...devallano would still be gm but he succombed to demers pleading to make the oates-federko et al trade...which is the deal that sealed his fate. murray has made some decent trades...no doubt...but these are more due to the stupidity or cheapness of other teams than brilliance on his part...washington was too cheap to pay ciccarelli so they essentially gave him away...and carson was really a big anchor to the team, and he was able to sucker a rookie gm to give him paul coffey for deadweight. if detroit still fails this year because he was one defenseman short... then he will have wasted an opportunity because manson was available, and he was unable to pull the trigger. it is his judgement that he has enough with what he's got...yzerman doesn't have that many more years in his prime. 
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 podein is an interesting case...because he was eligible to play in cape breton in the ahl playoffs like kovalev, zubov, and andersson...obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out to be...certainly in this case they've massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers. what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc? i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev, zubov, and andersson for binghamton, but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield, while nylander wanted to play for sweden. the whalers allowed the nhl to decide, and the nhl chose the wcs. how does this differ from the rangers and oilers? did the whalers have to go through the league, or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield? obviously, it is ultimately the teams choice...the nhl would obviously prefer not to annoy the european hockey federations, but the nhl right now cannot force nhl teams to free their players...the whalers probably did it this way so as to not annoy their farm team affiliate. 
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 : speaking of great players, man-oh-man can quebec skate. i haven't seen a : team so potent on the rush in a long time. watching them break out of their : zone, especially sundin, is a treat to watch. they remind me of the red : army. : dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca (pissed-off habs fan) yeah, the nords look like they're going to be good...but (excuse the bias) have you ever watched the pens on a rush?...don't answer: everyone has seen this footage. near the end of the season when the pens played the nords it was like watching a (younger) double of the pens. ...the nords looked good right up to the point when they lost. ravi shah shah+@pitt.edu "la mu'sica ideas portara' approx. translation: "music will bring ideas y siempre continuara' and will continue forever sonido electro'nico electronic sound decibel sinte'tico" -musique non stop- synthetic decibel" 
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 what, did you leave the room each of the 100 or so times they said that there were no other night baseball games? every break they took back at the studio mentioned it, followed by 'so...we're gonna show you hockey instead.' my wife and i are hoping for rain at every baseball game they have a feed for tommorrow night... point is, be glad they showed hockey, but if baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would've watched baseball last night. pete clark i know that there wasn't other games on the schedule, but espn sometimes shows classic games from previous season to fill in the time slot. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53804">
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 with everyone bitching about the hockey coverage by espn its almost like the detroit-toronto game was not televised last nite. i was just thankful to see hockey on a night that it wasn't supposed to be carried. thanks to espn, no matter why they televised the game 
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 here is a press release from the white house. remarks by president clinton to ncaa division i champion hockey team april 19; q&a following to: national desk contact: white house office of the press secretary, 202-456-2100 washington, april 19 -- following is a transcript of remarks by president clinton to the university of maine "black bears" ncaa division i hockey champions: the rose garden 9:58 a.m. edt the president: good morning ladies and gentlemen. it's an honor for me to welcome the university of maine black bears, the winner of the ncaa division i hockey national championship to the rose garden and the white house. i understand from senator mitchell that this is the first team from the university of maine every to win a national championship. and we're glad to have them here. i'm inspired not only by how the team pulled together to win the championship, but how the entire state pulled together to cheer them onto victory. coming from a state that is also relatively small in size, but also filled with pride and tradition and community, i can understand how the people of maine must feel about the black bears. in our state people are still talking about the time we won the orange bowl over the number one ranked football team, and that was back in 1978. i'm sure that 15 years from now, the people of maine will as proud of this team as they are today. you know, in my state football is a slightly more popular sport than hockey. we don't have a lot of ice. (laughter.) but after spending three months getting banged around in this town, i can understand a little more about hockey than i did before i came here. hockey is a tough game. it's a hard-hitting sport. it does have one virtue though, there's a penalty for delay of game. i wish we had that rule in the senate. (laughter.) in government as in hockey, leadership is important. in the united states senate, our team has a great captain, the majority leader and the senior senator from maine, george mitchell; junior senator -- cohen looks so young, i can't imagine. (laughter.) i'm actually bitter about senator cohen because he looks so much younger than me. on your hockey team, the captain jim montgomery has done a great job. he scored the winning goal late in the championship game, leading you to a come-from-behind victory -- something else i know a little bit about. sport brings out the best in individuals and in teams and in communities. i share the pride that senator mitchell and senator cohen and congressman andrews and all the people of maine must feel for the black bears who have shown us all how to play as a team, how to bring out the best in one another, and how to come from i think it's important, as i ask young people from around america who have achieved outstanding things in working together, to come here to the white house to be recognized and appreciated by their country, to remember that those kinds of values and those kinds of virtues need to be ingrained in all of us for all of our lives. we now have another role model, and i'm glad to have them here today. (applause.) (the president is presented with team jersey.) (applause.) the president: that's great. i love it. it's beautiful. (applause.) (the president is presented with an autographed stick.) the president: thank you. that's great. (applause.) q mr. president, did you authorize the move on waco this morning, sir? the president: i was aware of it. i think the attorney general made the decision. and i think i should refer all questions to her and to the fbi. q did you have any instructions for her as to how it should be executed? the president: no, they made the tactical decisions. that was their judgment, the fbi. q is this a raid? the president: and i will -- i want to refer you to -- talk to the attorney general and the fbi. i knew it was going to be done, but the decisions were entirely theirs, all the tactical q what did you and senator mitchell talk about this q any chance for that stimulus package? the president: senator mitchell ought to pay my quarter. (laughter.) i was in there -- (laughter). senator mitchell: you have to pay that quarter. the president: i was ready. (laughter.) senator mitchell, he's worth a quarter any day. q any chance for your bill, sir? the president: we talked about what was going to happen this week in the senate and about what other meetings we're going to have for the rest of the week. we only had about five minutes to talk. and we agreed we'd get back together later, around noon, and talk some more. q senator dole said over the weekend that your compromise is no compromise. the president: well, i know he did, but, look, senator dole and a lot of the other republicans now in the senate voted for the same kind of thing for ronald reagan in 1983; and our research indicates that a majority of them over time voted for a total of 28 emergency spending measures totalling over $100 billion when reagan and bush were president, in those administrations. and many of those purposes were not nearly as worthy as putting the american people back to work. i don't want to go back and revisit every one, but you can do it. you can look at the research there. so this position they're taking is not credible. we have a very tough five-year deficit reduction plan. all these costs are covered during that time and then some. and the very people that are saying this has all got to be paid for don't have much of a history on which to base their position. they've got 12 years of vote for stimulus measures of this kind that had very little to with putting the american people back to work. so i think we've got a chance to work it out, and i'm hopeful. we'll see what happens today and tomorrow. i'm feeling pretty good about it. the press: thank you end 10:10 a.m. edt -30- canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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 in other tv news, the penguins announced yesterday that they will have 3 fewer broadcast tv games, and will have 22(!) games on some sort of subscription / pay-per-view system. yuck. this is incorrect. this year the pens had 61 games on "free" tv and 6 games on ppv. next year they will have 62 games on free tv and 22 on a subscription basis. you actually get 1 more free game than last year, and there will be no more "radio-only" games. its a good deal. last year, everybody bitched about baldwin "breaking up the team". now, he goes out of his way to keep the nucleus of this team together and that takes money. he comes up with a creative way to generate more revenue so he can afford this team, and people bitch some more. everybody wants something for nothing. dean j. falcione "badges? what badges? we (using jrmst8 by permission don't need no stinkin' of the owner, joe mcdonald) badges!" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53809">
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 suggestions: clarke-anderson-gilmour vs. sheppard-yserbeart-?? andreychuck-borchevsy-?? vs. detroit checking line toronto's checking line vs. yzerman-fedorov-probert (pray lots) well, i'm a wings fan and i think the first thing that you should do is to get the opponent's line combinations correct before you try to match up anyone with them. there is no yzerman-fedorov-probert line, except for maybe on a powerplay. these three players usually play on three different lines. which would mean that toronto's checking line would have to pull a triple the wings' lines usually look like this: gallant-yzerman-ciccarelli kozlov-fedorov-drake kennedy-burr-probert ysebaert-primeau-sheppard oh by the way: start praying! : ) laurie marshall wayne state university detroit, michigan go wings!!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53811">
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 pray for the wings to become lazy and overconfident...the wings can only lose the series...toronto cannot win it. take away doug gilmour and the leafs are an old tampa bay. right gerald. and take away bob probert and the wings are dead octopuses. the leafs deserve a lot of credit for their diligent effort during the regular season...but if detroit puts in a reasonable effort, this is not a contest. let's wait for the body to get cold before we start in with the eulogies hm? they have only lost one game. the game was in detroit after all and potvin did not have his best evening. nobody that i saw thought that the leafs would sweep the wings. it looks like it might go six. the leafs will take the wings home advantage away in the next game. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53813">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53813" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 in fact, the tradition has been passed down to their affiliate in adirondack. in gm 6 of last yr's finals, an 8 legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right at the feet of ref lance roberts. it may have been passed to toronto, but i've even seen an octopus at the aud -- last year's bruins-sabres game. i knew all about the detroit version, but seeing at the aud was a bit puzzling. :-) valerie hammerl birtday -(n)- an event when friends get hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu together, set your dessert on fire, then acscvjh@ubms.cc.buffalo.edu laugh and sing while you frantically try v085pwwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu to blow it out. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53814">
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 nooooooooooooooooo! who's the mindscheme(?) behind this one -- ted simmons? as the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." i'm 230 miles from home (during the school year) and will never be able to pick up dve. at least now i can sort of make out what mike and steigy say through all the static on kdka. this just may be enough reason for me to transfer to duquesne and live at home. who's going to announce on dve anyway? paulson and krenn? (just kidding.) don't kid around... they just might listen. kevin l. stamber purdue university waiting to hear 'free bird' as the new penguins theme 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53816">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53816" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |> ok, here's the solution to your problem. move to canada. yesterday i was able |> to watch four games...the nj-pitt at 1:00 on abc, la-cal at 3:00 (cbc), |> buff-bos at 7:00 (tsn and fox), and mon-que at 7:30 (cbc). i think that if |> each series goes its max i could be watching hockey playoffs for 40-some odd |> consecutive nights (i haven't counted so that's a pure guess). the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year. i had the rangers on msg, and the two different games on scny and sca on at the same time. yes, i'd rather have sc cover it, just for the amount of coverage. |> btw, those abc commentaters were great! i was quite impressed; they seemed |> to know that their audience wasn't likely to be well-schooled in hockey lore |> and they did an excellent job. they were quite impartial also, imo. i think thorne earns his money. the best part is that he is the same way when he is earning his $$ from sportschannel as the devils announcer (i.e., unbiased). he goes orgasmic for goals, despite which team scores, and even more excited (if possible) for great saves. he did a good job of explaining certain things to non-hockey types without offending those of us who follow the sport (unlike nbc's clowns for the asg). (ob. playoff-time flame-bait) don't any of you pittsburgh fans tell me how mike lang(e) is better. maybe if he were a little spontaneous, rather than reading rehearsed lines of b.s having nothing to do with hockey he would be better. john p. curcio go bruins! philips laboratories jpc@philabs.philips.com 345 scarborough road (914) 945-6442 briarcliff manor, ny 10510 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53818">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53818" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |> >you'll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that |> >can't play it on account of availability or financial reasons. |> >hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off. what is this crap? i'm only interested in intelligent discussion. if you can't answer my question, just say so. can anyone else answer the ques.? it's not really crap you know... only half crap ;-) from what i understand it's very expensive to play hockey south of the border... (actually it's not that cheap up hear either... though once you have all the equipement it's not more than $300 a year... actually i haven' played in about 8 years so i could be off a bit... ) in the states, where ice time is considerably more expensive it can cost over a thousand a year... compare this to baseball and you'll see that hockey is a sport for the well-to-do... and this brings up the fact that the well-to-do in the us are majority white... btw: what was the original question... i think it has to do with the hispanic communtiy and playing hockey.... cheers! | ingo@sunee.uwaterloo.ca | the more violent the body | | iwweigel@descartes.uwaterloo.ca | contact of the sports you | | ingo@electrical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca | watch, the lower your class. | | iwweigele@electrical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca | -- paul fussell | if the university of waterloo had on opinion, this probably wouldn't be it... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53821">
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 nj> : >and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been nj> : >resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any nj> : >team captain trivia would be appreciated. mike foligno was captain of the buffalo sabres when he was traded to stephen legge slegge@kean.ucs.mun.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53825">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53825" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd, they are a very deep team, with two very capable goalies, and excellent forwards and defensemen. shooter in richer, an all around do it all in todd, chef stasny-master of a thousand dishes, power play kevin todd is an oiler and has been one for months. how closely do you follow the devils, anyway? jeez.... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53826">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53826" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 are people here stupid or what??? it is a tie breaker, of cause they have to have the same record. how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker??? if it is a tie breaker, how can there be different record???? man, i thought people in this net are good with hockey. i might not be great in math, but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record??? man...retard!!!!!! can't believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker...... then allow me to enlighten you, rex. you see, there's a thing called a tie. a tie is worth one point (i know, i know. you're not good at math. but bear with me). a win is worth two points. so, getting two ties is the same as getting one win. if your team played two games, won one and lost one, you'd have two points. if my team played two games and tied them both, we'd also have two points. we'd be tied in the standings even though our records are perhaps you should learn something about hockey before posting again. (i am starting to sound like roger or what?) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53827">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53827" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 all of this is fine. i never said that murray was a bad gm. i merely said that he isn't the best gm in hockey- or even a contender for that honor. if murray is as great as you claim- the wings would have won the stanley cup by now- probably more than once. if he was as great a gm as you claim i think you missed one of my points there. it takes *more* than a great gm to win a stanley cup, even once. some of the guys on the list you gave earlier never won one. i agree that you and i could probably argue back and forth for days to no avail about who is the best gm in hockey- that is a matter of opinion, and who is to say my opinion is any better than yours or yours than mine? but the point of my *original* original post (if not well stated) was that murray has the gm abilities but not the coaching abilities. which leads to below: and he was as poor a coach as you claim- he would have been intelligent enough to hire the coach to push the team to the next level of success. i think at this point there's a personal, emotional element involved here which transcends murray's logical thought. as outsiders, it's fine for us to say, "he should hire a different coach." in fact, he has talked about doing so in the past. but, the press (here in detroit, at least) has so built up this business about murray never getting past the second round of the playoffs as a coach, that i think he has taken it upon himself to prove to the world that he *is* capable of coaching a team past the second round. he needs to, as the papers say, "get that monkey off his back." so it becomes a matter not of intelligence, but of pride. is it foolish to let pride stand in the way of sound logic? perhaps, but we're all a little that way from time to time. i think eventually he'll step down from behind the bench and concentrate on his gm duties, and the team will improve as a result. i think his coaching duties take away time he might have otherwise spent on gm work. in that sense, once he steps down as coach, we'll see how good of a gm he really is. but murray is an average (unspectacular) nhl coach and a pretty good gm so none of this is true anyway. i may not agree with everything you've said, but it's been fun discussing it with you. --randy 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53830">
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 sorry to everyone for wasting space. matt, the other day you posted that you were doing a mailing list of playoff stats. i lost your address. please put me on that list. thanks. sorry again. i guess you need my address. gp2011@mailserver.bgsu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53831">
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 woops! this is rec.sport.hockey! not rec.sport.golf! hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting! steve lee * university of western ontario * london, canada lee139@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca actually steve, i think he was refering to the leafs, and when they can be expected to hit the greens... acadia axemen! ciau champions, 1993! donald.smith@dragon.acadiau.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53832">
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 yeah, the news is true...the leafs lost to the wings 6-3. wish i could say i'd seen the whole game but my husband wanted to watch "young guns ii" on another channel. sometime between the first time i tuned in and d saw the leafs tie and the next time i tuned in and heard the score was 5-1, something happened. please no woofing from red wings fans. they're my third favourite team, and if they make it past the leafs i'll wish them luck. as for potvin...well, it was his fist playoff game. susan carroll-clark who likes anyone doug gilmour plays for 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53833">
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 |> >i think that jack ferreira's firing eventually led to kingston's |> >firing. you mention consistency of vision. i think the |> >sharks lost that with the loss of ferreira. there has never |> >been a 3 headed g.m. that has ever worked. you need one |> >person making the personnel decisions at the top, not |> >management by committee. the conventional wisdom |> >from around the league is that ferreira would have |> >made the moves that would have fielded a better product |> >on the ice. |> how exactly would ferreira accomplished this? the three-headed gm-ship has |> taken a lot of heat, but nobody's explained how things would have been any |> different had ferreira still been there. would ferreira have made more |> trades? who would have he had traded? would he have made fewer trades? |> who should not have been traded? i think the three-headed gm's guiding principle was to keep veterans in favor of youngsters only if they offered a "significant" advantage. at the end of last season, the contracts of several veterans with somewhat maginal contributions (fenton, bozek, anderson, and a couple others i can't remember) were bought out. the idea was that youngsters could play almost as well, and had the potential to improve where these older guys did not. and they traded mullen, because he wanted to go, not because he wasn't good enough, but i think they were a bit too optimistic in thinking they could make up for his contributions. an example from this season, skriko was brought in on a trial basis but not kept, because of his age. i thought he was a decent contributor worth keeping around. the youth movement has its advantages; look at gaudreau who might still be in kc if more veterans had been kept around. but you have to find the right balance. steve cole (steve@sep.stanford.edu, apple!sep!steve) department of geophysics, stanford university, stanford, ca 94305 
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 here are the standings after game 1 of each of the divisional semi-finals. (hey, look who's #4!) i'll try to post the standings after "each game" (i.e. every two days). i managed to recover the email lost up to saturday night, so all i'm missing is mail that arrived between early saturday morning and sunday afternoon. many people re-sent their teams, so you may have received two replies back from me. if your team name is not on this list, please resend your team to me and i'll see what i can do. any kind of "proof" you sent it on the weekend will help your case. :-) seriously, this is only a fun pool and i trust each person to be honest. again, sorry for any inconvenience, and i hope the pool is still fun for you. usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn 1. sneddon scorers 43 25 (--) 2. the borg 42 25 (--) dave wessels 42 25 (--) 4. bruce's rented mules 41 25 (--) great expectations 41 25 (--) hurricane andrew 41 25 (--) jerky boys 41 24 (--) homesick hawaiian 41 25 (--) 9. give you money monday 40 25 (--) einstien's punk band 40 25 (--) 11. zipper heads 39 25 (--) tapio repo 39 25 (--) detroit homeboy 39 25 (--) the dead ducks 39 25 (--) mike burger 39 25 (--) test department 39 25 (--) team elvis 39 25 (--) craig team 39 25 (--) 19. skate or die 38 25 (--) debbie bowles 38 25 (--) fuzzfaces galore 38 25 (--) suds 38 25 (--) the campi machine 38 25 (--) zachmans wingers 38 25 (--) sean forbes 38 25 (--) threepeat 38 25 (--) flamming senators 38 25 (--) team awesome 38 25 (--) a.p. bury 38 25 (--) purdue ricks pens 38 25 (--) gb flyers 38 25 (--) seppo kemppainen 38 25 (--) 33. paige faults 37 25 (--) weenies 37 25 (--) chris roney 37 25 (--) rednecks from hockey hell 37 25 (--) dog's hog's 37 25 (--) mind sweepers 37 25 (--) teem kanada 37 25 (--) northern lights 37 25 (--) fugazi 37 25 (--) delaware destroyers 37 25 (--) mopar muscle men 37 25 (--) lance hill the boston bruins fa 37 25 (--) garryola 37 25 (--) oakville brothers 37 25 (--) sam & his dogs 37 25 (--) cluster buster 37 24 (--) jan stein 37 25 (--) frank's little wankers 37 25 (--) milton keynes kings 37 25 (--) the promise land 37 25 (--) rangers of destiny 37 25 (--) 54. new zealand leafs 36 25 (--) loaded weapons 36 25 (--) bloom county all-stars 36 25 (--) robarts research rebels 36 25 (--) tiger chung lees 36 25 (--) goddess of fermentation 36 25 (--) make beliefs 36 25 (--) rob del mundo 36 25 (--) heikki salmi 36 25 (--) the underwriters 36 25 (--) muller n walker 36 25 (--) controversy warriors 36 25 (--) bjorkloven 36 25 (--) norway killerwhales 36 25 (--) holsteins sfb 36 25 (--) buffalo soldiers 36 25 (--) lemon pepper grizzly bears 36 25 (--) frack attack 36 25 (--) houdini's magicians 36 25 (--) the ^&#@$#$% rangers of 1940 36 24 (--) rangers blow 36 25 (--) 75. dave hiebert 35 25 (--) yan loke 35 25 (--) canadian gladiators 35 25 (--) littlest giants 35 25 (--) alf's all-stars 35 25 (--) the ice kickers 35 25 (--) beer makes me an expert 35 25 (--) force 25 35 25 (--) mr creosote 35 25 (--) the goobmeister 35 25 (--) the mulberry maulers 35 25 (--) rev's rebels 35 25 (--) bosse 35 25 (--) zippety doodah 35 25 (--) kramer george and jerry 35 25 (--) dehradun maawalis 35 25 (--) sludge 35 25 (--) j's rock'em sock'ems 35 25 (--) brians bloodletters 35 25 (--) grant marven 35 25 (--) arctic circles 35 25 (--) all the kane's men 35 25 (--) trevor's triumph 35 25 (--) mark and steve dreaming again 35 25 (--) goaldingers 35 25 (--) bjoern leaguen 35 25 (--) habs playing golf 35 25 (--) 102. shigella 34 25 (--) new jersey rob 34 25 (--) steves superstars 34 25 (--) big bay bombers 34 25 (--) doug bowles 34 25 (--) neural netters 34 25 (--) lippe 34 25 (--) lets go pandas 34 25 (--) les raisins 34 25 (--) daves knee jerk picks 34 25 (--) monica loke 34 25 (--) jason team 34 25 (--) reneb 34 25 (--) schott shooters 34 25 (--) gilles carmel 34 25 (--) lewey's lakers 34 25 (--) smithw 34 25 (--) east city jokers 34 25 (--) daryl turner 34 25 (--) doug mraz 34 25 (--) skriko wolves 34 25 (--) icemachine 34 25 (--) lamp lighters 34 25 (--) on thin ice 34 25 (--) joe's a crak head 34 25 (--) 127. samuel lau (calgary, alberta) 33 25 (--) comfortably numb 33 25 (--) reksa fans of oulu 33 25 (--) gail hiebert 33 25 (--) gee man 33 25 (--) but wait theres more 33 25 (--) marcs maulers 33 25 (--) danielle leblanc 33 25 (--) bobby schmautz fan club 33 25 (--) ottawa bearcats 33 25 (--) boops bets 33 25 (--) triple x 33 25 (--) timo ojala 33 25 (--) flying pigs 33 25 (--) 141. the eradicators 32 25 (--) van isle colonists 32 25 (--) commitments 32 25 (--) bure's blur 32 25 (--) great scott 32 25 (--) weasels 32 25 (--) tequila shooters 32 25 (--) whiters 32 25 (--) frasses faceplants 32 25 (--) high stickers 32 25 (--) mak paranjape 32 25 (--) lord stanley's favourites 32 25 (--) san jose mahi mahi 32 25 (--) oz 32 25 (--) e.i.s 32 25 (--) mann mariners 32 24 (--) jfz dream team 32 25 (--) stacey ross 32 25 (--) louisiana psycho killers 32 25 (--) la coupe stainless 32 25 (--) 161. fighting amish 31 25 (--) evan pritchard 31 25 (--) stanias stars 31 25 (--) pens dynasty 31 25 (--) oceanweavers 31 25 (--) go go gagit 31 25 (--) myllypuro hedgehogs 31 25 (--) arm & hammer 31 25 (--) legzryx 31 25 (--) chapman chaps 31 25 (--) dean martin 31 25 (--) cherry bombers 31 25 (--) 173. sluggo's hosers 30 25 (--) anson mak 30 25 (--) knights on a power play 30 25 (--) 176. canuck force 29 25 (--) butt ends 29 25 (--) beam team 29 25 (--) jukurit 29 25 (--) chapman sticks 29 25 (--) ken de cruyenaere 29 25 (--) gax goons 29 25 (--) tampere salami 29 25 (--) sparky's select 29 25 (--) 185. hillside raiders 28 25 (--) eldoret elephants 28 25 (--) jane's world 28 25 (--) the alarmers 28 25 (--) 189. rolaids required 27 25 (--) chip n dale 27 25 (--) brian bergman 27 25 (--) 192. killer kings 26 25 (--) montys nords 26 25 (--) 194. arsenal maple leafs 25 18 (--) martin's gag 25 25 (--) 196. equipe du jour 24 25 (--) 197. lisa's luggers 23 25 (--) andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53837">
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 to those who are wondering what is happening in minnesota: from what i have seen in the local news (tv and newspaper), various people in the area are trying to get a new hockey team. a columnist for the st. paul "pioneer press" wrote an article giving the "inside scoop" on the issue. there are three local sites competing for a team and three possible candiates to move to the twin cities. first the sites: target center, civic center (st. paul), and yes, even the met center. the columnist was pretty confident that minnesota will get a team, and that the target center will ultimately win out. he argued, however, that the competition from the other two sites will delay the process considerably. without the inter-site competition, the columnist (sorry, i can't remember his name) believes that minnesota would have a team by the 1994-95 season. also, because of the situation with the timberwolves, things will be delayed until (unless) the city of minneapolis takes over the target center. however, they are unlikely to do so until the met center is destroyed, because the city will lose money if there is competition from the met for conventions and short-term events (even with hockey at target). to add to this mess, a study (6 to 12 months) is going to be conducted on the future viability of the met center, which obviously delays the process even further. i hope that the study is cancelled, which will have the effect of knocking the met center out of the running and perhaps encouraging minneapolis to take over the target center sooner. the city would be be even more encourged if the wrecking ball is taken to the met, which may happen. regarding possible candidates, the three teams are hartford, tampa bay, and new jersey. i would prefer the devils (minnesota " ice demons?") although the lightning may have potential. although it hasn't been announced yet, it looks like 6 neutral site games will be played at the target center next year. apparently the devils are interested in playing in as many of those six games as possible, and i wouldn't be surprised to see hartford and tampa show up there either. so, minnesota may end up getting another team, but it may take a few years. go sabres! robert andolina (former buffalonian living in minneapolis) randolin@polisci.umn.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53838">
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 gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) says: i mean that the original poster was looking for a devils victory on the tape delay, and it didn't happen in game 1. i was the original poster, and it was just a complaint about the coverage (meaningless yankee game before playoff devils game). oh! i apologize then...i misinterpreted you! no problem, no offence taken ... of all the teams in the patrick, i least dislike the devils. it is sad, just as a lover of the sport, that this team can be in the metro new york area for over a decade and still exist as just a non-entity ... how is espn's coverage anyways??? i think it starts tonight. we're getting the sabres-bruins as the replacement game (and probably so are you) while the devils-penguins game is played on scny and the islanders-caps are the overflow game on the sca (scny plus). if the sabres-bruins ends early then we'll go to the devils-penguins game (assuming that espn follows their previous patterns; we got the last minute of the islanders-rangers and all of the overtime two weeks ago). espn's coverage started last night, by accident, but as one or more other writers have pointed out, they could've gone to wild hog wrestling for the evening instead ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53840">
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 i am in need of all of the players wearing #77 in the nhl. i know now only of one, ray borque for the bruins. any help would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------the logistician reigns supreme!!!---------------------- | go blue!!! go tigers!!! go pistons!!! go lions!!! go red wings!!! | -------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu------------------------------- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53842">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53842" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 someone give sportchannel a call (or maybe ted turner). wasn't usa network covering the playoffs years ago? jim g. oh to be back in the good old days when i lived in florida (florida for petes sake!!) and could watch hockey every night as espn and usa alternated coverage nights. oh well i guess it would be too simple for the home office to look back into their past to solve a problem in the present... of course i shouldn't complain. at least i'm getting to watch the playoffs for a change. (hooray!!) now if the espn schedulers will realise there are other teams except pittsberg in the patrick. (sounds like a dr suess book lets go caps!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53843">
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 hell is anderson? anderson can (in days past) get under peoples skin. put a little more bluntly, anderson has to be an asshole. he used to be good at it. we need him now. agreed. anderson was nowhere last night. well what do you expect...burns was playing him with krushelnyski and baumgartner...anderson is a finisher...unless you play him with someone to can get him the puck in a finishing position...he ain't going to do much scoring! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53845">
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 game two of the detroit - toronto series will be a rougher game. i believe that clark will be coming out hitting on all cylindars. i believe that probert will take exception to this and a fight between clark and probert will result. i know this sounds kind of ridiculous, but i know game two toronto will come out hitting. any takers on this issue? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53846">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53846" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 hi all, due to living in the bay area, i as unable to see vancouver's victory over the jets last night. i know the score, but that rarely describes the game. could someone please post a brief sonapsis (sp?) of waht happened. how well did each team play? were the cannucks deserving of the victory? also, could some kind soul please email me the end of season, individual player stats? -- vancouver for the cup (in a virtual reality)-- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53848">
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 you can't. but good luck trying. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53849">
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 |> > <kfnjyea00uh_i1vmus@andrew.cmu.edu> |> > nntp-posting-host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu |> > in-reply-to: <kfnjyea00uh_i1vmus@andrew.cmu.edu> |> > from anna matyas: |> >>>now if we could just clone chelios's personality and transplant it |> >>>into all of the defensemen on the islanders, capitals, and devils... |> >>>gerald |> >>in other words, you want to turn them all into assholes so they |> >>will spend lots of time in the penalty box and get lots of |> >>misconducts? |> >>and this comes from a chelios fan... |> > yeah, and also be second in the team in scoring and play about 35 |> > minutes a game and play on the power play and kill penalties and be the |> > best defenseman in the league. i'd take a whole team of chelioses if i |> > could. (that way, when one got a penalty the others could kill it!) |> > ralph |> >how to beat pittsburgh??? |> i.mario lemieux |> a.death |> 1.too much kimo |> 2.slash to skull |> 3.ask the rangers (slashing his wrist????) |> ii.jaromir jagr |> a.deportation |> 1.send him back to whatever commie country |> he's from |> 2.tell him that bill clinton is going too |> iii.kevin stevens |> a.fighting |> 1.call bob probert |> 2.call tie domi |> 3.call my grandmother (she'd kick his ass) since everybody wants to see pittsburgh players not playing, the stanley cup would be devaluated. iskander ayari email : iskander.ayari@loria.fr ou ayari@loria.fr 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53850">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53850" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 (thanks for the goals by steve smith) i don't see why more people don't blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put in his own net, it's common to play the puck back to your own goalie when deep in your own end and under little or no pressure from the offensive team. if fuhr had been in position the puck would have never crossed the line. from this account, it doesn't sound like you even saw the goal, mike. smith came out from behind his own net and fired a breakout pass that hit fuhr in the back of the leg. fuhr was backing up at the time and never saw what happened. the puck went straight off fuhr's leg and into the net. fuhr never had a chance. there was no play back to the goaltender, in fact perry berezan of calgary had just dumped it in and smith was retrieving it. it was unfortunate that it happened; smith is a nice guy and was only a rookie at the time, and on his birthday too. but all the blame lies with him. starting in pee-wee coaches tell players never to make a cross-ice pass in front of their own net. too much chance of having it intercepted, or hitting the goaltender, or whatever. and to the people who say that smith cost the oilers the series, i can only say that he certainly didn't cause the team to lose the other three games. there was no reason for a powerhouse team like edmonton to be tied late in the third period of the 7th game of the second round. everybody on the team has to take responsibility for them even being in that situation. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53851">
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 i was wtahcing right guard hockey week on tsn yesterday and they had a feature on this guy that does a lot (most?) of the masks for nhl goalies. they talked about how they are made, what they are made of, and the designs that are put on them, etc. the best one of all was one he never talked about, he just held it up. it has the current leafs crest on the chin and an awesome looking black panther on the forehead -- it *has* to be a new mask for felix potvin, but he never said whose it was. are you sure this program was current? i know that grant fuhr had a black panther on the forehead of his mask when he played with the leafs. it would seem logical that the mask is potvins. his nickname is "the cat", which would go a long ways towards explaining the panther. of course, it could be an old story and the mask is fuhrs, too..... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53852">
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 does anyone have the nhl standings for march 28th? i need them immediately for a project. please post or email. thanks. andy hillery --- school of architecture state university of new york at buffalo 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53853">
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 (thanks for the goals by steve smith) i don't see why more people don't blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put in his own net, it's common to play the puck back to your own goalie when deep in your own end and under little or no pressure from the offensive team. if fuhr had been in position the puck would have never crossed the line. mike mcdowell i have to disagree with you on this one. it is anything but common. in the 4 or 5 years i have been watching hockey i have never seen this happen ever. i am not sure what league you have been watching. :-) anyone else agree with this? yes, colin... i have to agree with you here... i've put the puck in my own net the same way smith did... (only once, mind you :-) and it was definitely my fault. it is not a common play to play the puck the way that smith did. luckily, for me... when i did it... it was only a scrimmage :-) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53854">
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 by dave luecking of the post-dispatch staff at 9:11 thursday night, the scoreboard watchers at the arena began to cheer. their cheer quickly turned into a roar, and finally, the sellout crowd of 17,816 rose as one to rock the old barn at 5700 oakland avenue in a salute to the playoff-bound blues. the scoreboard had just flashed the news from detroit -- red wings 5, stars 3. with the north stars' loss, the blues officially clinched fourth place and the final playoff spot in the norris division. good thing, because the blues quit they held a 5-1 lead over tampa bay when the detroit-minnesota final appeared with 3 minutes 52 remaining in the second period. they promptly went to sleep and barely held on for a 6-5 victory that nearly slipped away at the buzzer. tampa's bob beers tipped in a pass from shawn chambers, but officiating supervisor john d'amico and video goal judge rich schweigler ruled that the shot had gone into the net after time had expired. ``i'm glad i didn't see it go in at the end," blues coach bob berry said. if the goal had counted, he'd have been more upset than he was by the blues' disappearance in the final 24 minutes. holding on for the victory and making the playoffs tempered berry's anger. ``it wasn't pretty at the end," he said. ``we played 36, 37 great minutes, as good as we played all year. it slipped away at the end. it shouldn't have, but it did." still, the blues won, prompting another ovation from the crowd at game's end. despite their shoddy effort in the third period and all the turmoil this season, the blues still made the playoffs. they'll meet the chicago blackhawks in a best-of-seven norris division semifinal, beginning at noon sunday at chicago stadium. the blues finished the regular-season with a record of 37-36-11 for 85 points, their fourth consecutive plus-.500 season. minnesota finished three points behind in fifth place, with a record of 36-38- 10 for 82 points. tampa bay, which played spoiler last week by tying the blues 2-2 at tampa, ended its first season with a record of 23-54-7 for 53 points. the poor finish cast an unnecessary shadow over what should have been a joyous blues locker room. instead, the mood was one of relief and some disappointment. ``it's a shame we let down," said kevin miller, one of three blues to score two goals. brendan shanahan and bob bassen were the others. ``there was no need for a letdown. if we'd have kept working, it would have ended 6-2 and everyone would be happy." instead, a lot of players were happy just to make the playoffs. ``we won, and that's all that matters," said brett hull, scoreless and minus-3 for the night. ``once we got up 4-0, it was really tough to play." some players didn't have a problem. ``just because the score was announced, our line didn't quit," said rich sutter, who played with bassen and miller. ``we still had a game to play. you can't allow five goals like we did, that's not right. ``it was disappointing to see what was going on." bassen was almost frantic on the bench because of the blues' effort. somehow, he missed the announcement of minnesota's loss. ``i didn't know it was final," he said. ``i was kind of looking around on the bench. i didn't realize it was a final for some reason. we're in the playoffs, and that's great, but it's a little disappointing to play like we did at the end." the letdown was precisely the reason that berry had instructed the scoreboard operators to keep the minnesota-detroit score off of the board. the score showed 0-0 until it first popped up with detroit leading 4-2 in the third period. the blues already led 4-0 at the time. ``i told them i didn't want to see the score, i didn't want to know the score," berry said. ``i felt we had to win the game, and that's the approach we took." if minnesota took a lead, berry feared, the pressure of having to win might bother the blues. if detroit led, he worried, the blues might quit. until the announcement, the blues played splendidly. shanahan got the crowd going at 10:44 of the first period, scoring his 50th of the season. then, miller and bassen took charge late in the period. with the teams playing four on four, miller broke in on left wing, deked defenseman roman hamrlik and beat former blues goalie pat jablonski with the rebound of his own shot with 21.6 seconds remaining in the period. then, just 10.5 seconds later, bassen rifled a long slap shot past jablonski after defenseman rick zombo intercepted a tampa pass in the neutral zone. bassen made it 4-0 just 14 seconds into the second period, scoring on the rebound of bret hedican's shot. the goal gave him his first two-goal game of the season and reminded him of a special friend. last year, bassen befriended young oliver mulvihill, who died of a rare form of cancer at age 6 on feb. 23. ``i was thinking of my buddy oliver," bassen said. ``he's in heaven now, and i know he was watching. i know he's happy." miller increased the blues lead to 5-0 on a break-away goal set up by zombo at 11:09. then, steve maltais broke curtis joseph's shutout just 18 seconds later, making it 5-1. less than a minute after the north stars' final was announced, tim bergland scored and cut the lead to 5-2. but shanahan scored his 51st, converting a pass from nelson emerson with 21.3 seconds remaining in the second period. then, it was all lightning. adam creighton scored 40 seconds into the third period, prompting berry to rest the overworked joseph. guy hebert allowed goals to shawn chambers and danton cole in a span of 1:21 midway through the third the goals by chambers and cole made shanahan's second goal stand up as the winner. ``we were in there," shanahan said. ``the game was over. we were in." * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53855">
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 nhl results for games played 4/14/93. patrick adams norris smythe tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt xpit 56 21 7 119 xbos 51 26 7 109 xchi 46 25 12 104 xvan 45 29 9 99 ywas 42 34 7 91 yque 47 27 10 104 ydet 46 28 9 101 ycal 42 30 11 95 ynj 40 36 7 87 ymon 48 30 6 102 ytor 44 28 11 99 yla 39 34 10 88 ynyi 39 37 7 85 ybuf 38 35 10 86 stl 36 36 11 83 ywin 39 37 7 85 phl 34 37 11 79 har 26 51 6 58 min 36 37 10 82 edm 26 49 8 60 nyr 34 38 11 79 ott 10 70 4 24 tb 23 53 7 53 sj 11 70 2 24 x - clinched division title y - clinched playoff berth boston bruins (51-26-7) 2 2 0 - 4 ottawa senators (10-70-4) 0 1 1 - 2 1st period: bos, roberts 5 - (juneau) 7:19 bos, wiemer 1 - (juneau, oates) 17:47 2nd period: bos, neely 11 - (juneau, murphy) 6:10 bos, hughes 5 - (richer, kimble) 7:55 ott, archibald 9 - (rumble, lamb) 11:37 3rd period: ott, boschman 9 - (kudelski) 5:10 powerplay opportunities-bruins 0 of 2 senators 0 of 4 shots on goal- bruins 13 11 10 - 34 senators 5 9 12 - 26 boston bruins--moog (36-14-3) (8 shots - 8 saves) blue (9:38 second) (18 shots - 16 saves) ottawa senators--sidorkiewicz (8-46-3) (27 shots - 23 saves) berthiaume (6:36 third) (7 shots - 7 saves) att-10,500 washington capitals (42-34-7) 0 0 2 - 2 new york rangers (34-38-11) 0 0 0 - 0 1st period: none 2nd period: none 3rd period: was, bondra 36 - (pivonka, cavallini) 6:54 was, bondra 37 - (cote, pivonka) 10:10 powerplay opportunities-capitals 0 of 2 rangers 0 of 1 shots on goal- capitals 16 11 12 - 39 rangers 8 7 8 - 23 washington capitals--tabaracci (7-11-0) (23 shots - 23 saves) new york rangers--richter (13-17-3) (39 shots - 37 saves) att-17,897 new york islanders (39-37-7) 2 1 1 0 - 4 hartford whalers (26-51-6) 2 1 1 1 - 5 1st period: nyi, ferraro 13 - (malakhov, king) 1:29 nyi, hogue 32 - (thomas, turgeon) 1:57 har, yake 21 - (poulin) 4:15 har, yake 22 - (nylander, poulin) 16:44 2nd period: har, verbeek 39 - (cassels, weinrich) (pp) 2:43 nyi, thomas 35 - (king, ferraro) 7:58 3rd period: har, burt 5 - (sanderson, cassels) 13:41 nyi, malakhov 14 - (hogue) 17:45 overtime: har, janssens 12 - (poulin) 1:08 powerplay opportunities-islanders 0 of 3 whalers 1 of 3 shots on goal- islanders 16 8 7 1 - 32 whalers 7 13 7 1 - 28 new york islanders--fitzpatrick (16-15-5) (28 shots - 23 saves) hartford whalers--lenaduzzi (1-0-1) (32 shots - 28 saves) att-10,915 pittsburgh penguins (56-21-7) 2 3 1 0 - 6 new jersey devils (40-36-7) 2 4 0 0 - 6 1st period: pit, daniels 5 - (needham, tippett) 4:14 njd, c.lemieux 29 - (semak, driver) 10:19 pit, k.stevens 55 - (tocchet, murphy) (pp) 12:40 njd, zelepukin 22 - (driver, niedermayer) 17:26 2nd period: pit, m.lemieux 68 - (stevens, tocchet) 1:42 njd, semak 36 - (c.lemieux, zelepukin) 2:27 pit, mceachern 28 - (jagr, barrasso) 4:24 njd, s.stevens 12 - (guerin, pellerin) 5:45 pit, m.lemieux 69 - (sh) 12:40 njd, richer 37 - (nicholls) 15:53 njd, c.lemieux 30 - (semak, zelepukin) 17:40 3rd period: pit, mullen 33 - (jagr, m.lemieux) 18:54 overtime: none powerplay opportunities-penguins 1 of 5 devils 0 of 3 shots on goal- penguins 9 11 8 2 - 30 devils 12 15 9 3 - 39 pittsburgh penguins--barrasso (43-14-5) (39 shots - 33 saves) new jersey devils--billington (21-14-4) (30 shots - 24 saves) att-14,796 -spike- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53858">
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 |> united states tv schedule: |> april 18 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 1 est abc (to eastern time zone) |> april 18 st. louis at chicago 12 cdt abc (to cent/mou time zones) |> april 18 los angeles at calgary 12 pdt abc (to pacific time zone) |> april 20 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 7:30 espn |> april 22 tba 7:30 espn |> april 24 tba 7:30 espn does anyone know if there will be alternate games in cities where local broadcast rights are being protected? i'd really love to see the bruins a couple times, and with this pro-patrick bias shown by espn something tells me that i will have to wait until the conference finals to see them :-}. john p. curcio go bruins! philips laboratories jpc@philabs.philips.com 345 scarborough road (914) 945-6442 briarcliff manor, ny 10510 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53859">
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 well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs. let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st.louis. that just makes it easier in the second round with all the rest they will get and tor/det getting none. for the conf. champ they will have a hard time versus the division but that div. will be pretty battered also so the advantage goes to the hawks again. then bring pitt. and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better to get that far and lose than to not go. hopefully, a miracle (o.k. not quite a miracle, but close!) will occur and pittsburgh will be elminated prior to the finals. if they make it again, they will probably keep the cup. if they don't, it's the hawks' turn! go blackhawks!! congrats to jeremy roenick for being only the 2nd hawks player to post back to back 50 goal seasons!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53860">
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 well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs. let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st.louis. that just makes it easier in don't be so sure, the blues played the hawks pretty well this season, and won twice at the stadium. the blues will give the hawks a hard time. this series is one of the best first round matchups, could go either way. the hawks will probably prevail in seven games. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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 philadelphia 1 2 4--7 buffalo 0 3 1--4 first period 1, philadelphia, recchi 52 (galley, lindros) 0:18. second period 2, philadelphia, hawgood 11 (dineen, eklund) pp, 2:15. 3, philadelphia, dineen 33 (mcgill) sh, 5:40. 4, buffalo, barnaby 1 (hawerchuk, smehlik) pp, 7:48. 5, buffalo, wood 18 (lafontaine, ledyard) pp, 17:34. 6, buffalo, mogilny 75 (hawerchuk, carney) pp, 18:56. third period 7, philadelphia, eklund 11 (dineen, beranek) 4:42. 8, buffalo, mogilny 76 (errey, lafontaine) 5:24. 9, philadelphia, dineen 34 (brind'amour) pp, 6:44. 10, philadelphia, dineen 35 (brind'amour, galley) sh, 8:39. 11, philadelphia, acton 8 (dineen, brind'amour) 19:48. philadelphia: 7 power play: 5-2 special goals: pp: 2 sh: 2 total: 4 scorer g a pts acton 1 0 1 beranek 0 1 1 brind'amour 0 3 3 dineen 3 3 6 eklund 1 1 2 galley 0 2 2 hawgood 1 0 1 lindros 0 1 1 mcgill 0 1 1 recchi 1 0 1 buffalo: 4 power play: 10-3 scorer g a pts barnaby 1 0 1 carney 0 1 1 errey 0 1 1 hawerchuk 0 2 2 lafontaine 0 2 2 ledyard 0 1 1 mogilny 2 0 2 smehlik 0 1 1 wood 1 0 1 minnesota 1 1 1--3 detroit 0 2 3--5 first period 1, minnesota, mcphee 18 (ludwig) 1:23. second period 2, minnesota, dahlen 34 (courtnall, gagner) pp, 0:31. 3, detroit, drake 18 (howe, ogrodnick) 9:14. 4, detroit, ysebaert 34 (lidstrom, howe) pp, 17:37. third period 5, detroit, ciccarelli 41 (coffey, chiasson) pp, 0:32. 6, detroit, kennedy 19 (burr, probert) 3:42. 7, detroit, yzerman 58 (ciccarelli, gallant) 6:17. 8, minnesota, dahlen 35 (courtnall, gagner) 19:11. detroit: 5 power play: 4-2 scorer g a pts burr 0 1 1 chiasson 0 1 1 ciccarelli 1 1 2 coffey 0 1 1 drake 1 0 1 gallant 0 1 1 howe 0 2 2 kennedy 1 0 1 lidstrom 0 1 1 ogrodnick 0 1 1 probert 0 1 1 ysebaert 1 0 1 yzerman 1 0 1 minnesota: 3 power play: 2-1 scorer g a pts courtnall 0 2 2 dahlen 2 0 2 gagner 0 2 2 ludwig 0 1 1 mcphee 1 0 1 edmonton 0 0 0--0 winnipeg 1 2 0--3 first period 1, winnipeg, shannon 20 (steen, davydov) pp, 2:08. second period 2, winnipeg, selanne 76 (olausson) 5:25. 3, winnipeg, zhamnov 25 (selanne) 19:42. third period no scoring. winnipeg: 3 power play: 6-1 scorer g a pts davydov 0 1 1 olausson 0 1 1 selanne 1 1 2 shannon 1 0 1 steen 0 1 1 zhamnov 1 0 1 edmonton: 0 power play: 3-0 no scoring toronto 1 1 0--2 chicago 0 2 1--3 first period 1, toronto, baumgartner 1 (unassisted) 18:40. second period 2, chicago, roenick 50 (murphy, chelios) 1:29. 3, toronto, andreychuk 55 (mironov, lefebvre) 13:22. 4, chicago, murphy 7 (roenick, chelios) pp, 19:05. third period 5, chicago, matteau 15 (unassisted) 10:51. error: power play goal mismatch. assuming calc value. error: team: toronto calc: 0 read: 1 chicago: 3 power play: 7-1 scorer g a pts chelios 0 2 2 matteau 1 0 1 murphy 1 1 2 roenick 1 1 2 toronto: 2 power play: 3-0 scorer g a pts andreychuk 1 0 1 baumgartner 1 0 1 lefebvre 0 1 1 mironov 0 1 1 first period 1, st louis, shanahan 50 (brown, felsner) 10:44. 2, st louis, miller 23 (bassen, brown) 19:38. 3, st louis, bassen 8 (zombo) 19:48. second period 4, st louis, bassen 9 (hedican, miller) 0:14. 5, st louis, miller 24 (zombo, hedican) 11:09. 6, tampa bay, maltais 7(hamrlik) 11:27. 7, tampa bay, bergland 3 (hervey, gilhen) 17:16. 8, st louis, shanahan 51 (emerson) 19:38. third period 9, tampa bay, creighton 19 (bergland, bergevin) 0:40. 10, tampa bay, chambers 10 (zamuner, cole) 10:37. 11, tampa bay, cole 12 (beers, bradley) 11:58. st louis: 6 power play: 4-0 scorer g a pts bassen 2 1 3 brown 0 2 2 emerson 0 1 1 felsner 0 1 1 hedican 0 2 2 miller 2 1 3 shanahan 2 0 2 zombo 0 2 2 tampa bay: 5 power play: 3-0 scorer g a pts beers 0 1 1 bergevin 0 1 1 bergland 1 1 2 bradley 0 1 1 chambers 1 0 1 cole 1 1 2 creighton 1 0 1 gilhen 0 1 1 hamrlik 0 1 1 hervey 0 1 1 maltais 1 0 1 zamuner 0 1 1 san jose 0 1 2--3 calgary 0 4 3--7 first period no scoring. second period 1, san jose, garpenlov 22 (odgers, gaudreau) pp, 3:37. 2, calgary, nieuwendyk 38 (macinnis, suter) pp, 5:26. 3, calgary, ranheim 21 (otto, suter) 10:43. 4, calgary, yawney 1 (nieuwendyk, roberts) 11:26. 5, calgary, berube 4 (paslawski, skrudland) 13:45. third period 6, san jose, wood 1 (odgers, kisio) 8:00. 7, calgary, reichel 40 (unassisted) 9:26. 8, calgary, roberts 38 (musil, paslawski) pp, 12:27. 9, san jose, kisio 26 (unassisted) 13:10. 10, calgary, paslawski 18 (ashton, stern) 16:16. calgary: 7 power play: 4-2 scorer g a pts ashton 0 1 1 berube 1 0 1 macinnis 0 1 1 musil 0 1 1 nieuwendyk 1 1 2 otto 0 1 1 paslawski 1 2 3 ranheim 1 0 1 reichel 1 0 1 roberts 1 1 2 skrudland 0 1 1 stern 0 1 1 suter 0 2 2 yawney 1 0 1 san jose: 3 power play: 3-1 scorer g a pts garpenlov 1 0 1 gaudreau 0 1 1 kisio 1 1 2 odgers 0 2 2 wood 1 0 1 vancouver 1 2 5--8 los angeles 2 3 1--6 first period 1, los angeles, robitaille 63 (gretzky, sandstrom) 1:39. 2, vancouver, babych 3 (craven, nedved) pp, 9:43. 3, los angeles, sandstrom 25 (gretzky, robitaille) 10:06. second period 4, vancouver, linden 32 (ronning, courtnall) pp, 0:54. 5, vancouver, ward 22 (hunter, nedved) 1:24. 6, los angeles, gretzky 16 (sandstrom, robitaille) 6:57. 7, los angeles, zhitnik 12 (kurri, robitaille) pp, 14:02. 8, los angeles, millen 23 (hardy) pp, 16:57. third period 9, vancouver, ronning 27 (dirk) 5:28. 10, vancouver, ronning 28 (courtnall, linden) pp, 11:15. 11, vancouver, linden 33 (courtnall, ronning) 11:27. 12, los angeles, donnelly 29 (millen, granato) pp, 14:35. 13, vancouver, courtnall 31 (ronning, ratushny) 14:54. 14, vancouver, ronning 29 (linden, diduck) en, 18:47. vancouver: 8 power play: 6-3 special goals: pp: 3 en: 1 total: 4 scorer g a pts babych 1 0 1 courtnall 1 3 4 craven 0 1 1 diduck 0 1 1 dirk 0 1 1 hunter 0 1 1 linden 2 2 4 nedved 0 2 2 ratushny 0 1 1 ronning 3 3 6 ward 1 0 1 los angeles: 6 power play: 10-3 scorer g a pts donnelly 1 0 1 granato 0 1 1 gretzky 1 2 3 hardy 0 1 1 kurri 0 1 1 millen 1 1 2 robitaille 1 3 4 sandstrom 1 2 3 zhitnik 1 0 1 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53863" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 1993 calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps *=if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1: springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2: springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3: 4/16 providence at springfield cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1: last night, cdi at adirondack gm 2: 4/17 cdi at adirondack gm 3: 4/18 adirondack at cdi gm 4: 4/21 adirondack at cdi gm 5: 4/23 cdi at adirondack * gm 6: 4/24 adirondack at cdi * gm 7: 4/26 cdi at adirondack * baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm 1: 4/16 baltimore at binghamton gm 2: 4/17 baltimore at binghamton gm 3: 4/23 binghamton at baltimore gm 4: 4/24 binghamton at baltimore gm 5: 4/26 baltimore at binghamton * gm 6: 4/28 binghmaton at baltimore * gm 7: 4/30 baltimore at binghamton * utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1: 4/16 utica at rochester gm 2: 4/17 utica at rochester gm 3: 4/20 rochester at utica gm 4: 4/22 rochester at utica gm 5: 4/24 utica at rochester * gm 6: 4/26 rochester at utica * gm 7: 4/28 utica at rochester * moncton hawks vs st john's maple leafs gm 1: st john's 4 moncton 2 gm 2: 4/17 moncton vs st john's at halifax gm 3: 4/21 st john's at moncton cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1: fredericton 4 cape breton 3 (2ot) gm 2: 4/16 cape breton at fredericton unfortunately the newspaper didnt list complete playoff skeds for series that already began. also, the paper has not listed final standings so their posting might be delayed until early next week (hockey news). + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl and ecac contact for rec.sport.hockey go usa hockey! + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + + congrats to the boston bruins, 1992-93 adams division champions + + phoenix suns, 1992-93 pacific division champions + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53864">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53864" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 the ottwawa senators fired mel bridgman at 1:00 pm today. randy sexton is gonna replace him. trashy move from a trashy organization. after the front office stated that nobody would lose their job over the sens. poor performance, bridgeman is gone within 24 hours of the teams final game. yes...i know he screwed up letting the king's grab loach. sexton's qualifications (aside from being cheap)?? - he played some us college hockey, - he's pals with club president bruce firestone. just the kind of experience you need when trying to build an expansion franchise. he'll probably be in the hall of fame next year! :-) this continues a tradition of front office gaffs: - paul anka and the arena deal - denis potvin and the gm postion - mike bossy and the scoring coach. how do people in ottawa feel about how the club is being run?? stephane lacelle brian down (bdown@vis.toronto.edu) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53870">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53870" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ok guys, i need a list of the teams who have been hot or cold during the last 25 games. doesn't need to be accurate, a rough guess will do. i'm about to enter a playoff pool and i want to know who is hot going into the playoffs. don't need to mention pittsburgh. they can't get any hotter than they are now. p.s. i need this by sunday yvon lavoie 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53874">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53874" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 let me give my two cents worth in this whole thing: i am very sick of pittsburg fans(and they are my second favorite team) talk about how " why can't bruins forget about ulf samuelsson when we have forgotten all about adam graves" beside the obvious fact that lemeuix's career was never endangered by graves' slash while neely is still bother by his injury, i think the most important reason is: adam graves has played clean hockey ever since! while ulf samulesson continues to play dirty(yes, trying to hit a player where he's injured is dirty). fans have can forget about one dirty play but how can you forget about ulf samulesson when everynight, when i watch hockey high lights, i get reminded of how dirty he is. hitting a player when he's injured is dirty? can you explain this statement? do you mean a player who was just injured on the ice(?) or do you mean a player who is playing hurt. if a player is hurt he should not bother playing because i don't belive any player should be let up on just because they are playing i'm not an ulf fan but at least i can spot the fact he is like calgary's theoren fleury in the respect that part of his game is to really piss other players off as that's part of his job (but he lacks ulf's size!). i am an ulf (and pgh) fan, and what pisses me off about the whole adam graves/ ulf samuesson debate is that ulf plays hard-hitting hockey (nothing wrong with that) while graves does what he does when the only way to win a game is to intentionally hurt someone (which bites!). players that really piss me off are the ones who insist on hitting from behind or try to go for the knees to injure the players. this kind of garbage has got to go (i would really like to see muni get pasted as he is one of the worst offenders). i thought they had instituted all kinds of new rules this season to stop crap like that?!? is it just me, or does the officiating just still stink to high heaven? imho, if they could get rid of the existing refs, and institute a new system with more than one ref on the ice to keep an eye on the trouble-makers then a lot of these things would stop, and then the game would be ruled by the finnesse players: mario, selanne, bure, messier, et.al... just my $0.02. colin layfield | "religion and sex are power plays, | manipulate the people for the money they pay, the university of calgary | selling skin, selling god computer science | the numbers look the same on their credit cards!" layfield@cpsc.ucalgary.ca | - queensryche tim drozinski embry-riddle aero. univ. drozinst@erau.db.erau.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53875">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53875" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 nhl results for games played 4/15/93. patrick adams norris smythe tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt xpit 56 21 7 119 xbos 51 26 7 109 xchi 47 25 12 106 xvan 46 29 9 101 ywas 42 34 7 91 yque 47 27 10 104 ydet 47 28 9 103 ycal 43 30 11 97 ynj 40 36 7 87 ymon 48 30 6 102 ytor 44 29 11 99 yla 39 35 10 88 ynyi 39 37 7 85 ybuf 38 36 10 86 ystl 37 36 11 85 ywin 40 37 7 87 phl 35 37 11 81 har 26 51 6 58 min 36 38 10 82 edm 26 50 8 60 nyr 34 38 11 79 ott 10 70 4 24 tb 23 54 7 53 sj 11 71 2 24 x - clinched division title y - clinched playoff berth minnesota north stars (36-38-10) 1 1 1 - 3 detroit red wings (47-28-9) 0 2 3 - 5 1st period: min, mcphee 18 - (ludwig) 1:23 2nd period: min, dahlen 34 - (courtnall, gagner) (pp) 0:31 det, drake 18 - (howe, ogrodnick) 9:14 det, ysebaert 34 - (lidstrom, howe) (pp) 17:37 3rd period: det, ciccarelli 41 - (coffey, chiasson) (pp) 0:32 det, kennedy 19 - (burr, probert) 3:42 det, yzerman 58 - (ciccarelli, gallant) 6:17 min, dahlen 35 - (courtnall, gagner) 19:11 powerplay opportunities-north stars 1 of 2 red wings 2 of 4 shots on goal- north stars 10 9 11 - 30 red wings 6 15 8 - 29 minnesota north stars--casey (26-26-5) (29 shots - 24 saves) detroit red wings--cheveldae (34-24-7) (30 shots - 27 saves) att-19,749 philadelphia flyers (35-37-11) 1 2 4 - 7 buffalo sabres (38-36-10) 0 3 1 - 4 1st period: phl, recchi 52 - (galley, lindros) 0:18 2nd period: phl, hawgood 11 - (dineen, eklund) (pp) 2:15 phl, dineen 33 - (mcgill) (sh) 5:40 buf, barnaby 1 - (hawerchuk, smehlik) (pp) 7:48 buf, wood 18 - (lafontaine, ledyard) (pp) 17:34 buf, mogilny 75 - (hawerchuk, carney) (pp) 18:56 3rd period: phl, eklund 11 - (dineen, beranek) 4:42 buf, mogilny 76 - (errey, lafontaine) 5:24 phl, dineen 34 - (brind'amour) (pp) 6:44 phl, dineen 35 - (brind'amour, galley) (sh) 8:39 phl, acton 8 - (dineen, brind'amour) 19:48 powerplay opportunities-flyers 2 of 5 sabres 3 of 10 shots on goal- flyers 6 7 13 - 26 sabres 8 19 18 - 45 philadelphia flyers--soderstrom (20-17-6) (45 shots - 41 saves) buffalo sabres--fuhr (10 shots - 7 saves) hasek (11-10-4) (5:40 second) (16 shots - 12 saves) att-15,042 edmonton oilers (26-50-8) 0 0 0 - 0 winnipeg jets (40-37-7) 1 2 0 - 3 1st period: win, shannon 20 - (steen, davydov) (pp) 2:08 2nd period: win, selanne 76 - (olausson) 5:25 win, zhamnov 25 - (selanne) 19:42 3rd period: none powerplay opportunities-oilers 0 of 3 jets 1 of 6 shots on goal- oilers 7 8 16 - 31 jets 10 16 16 - 42 edmonton oilers--ranford (17-38-6) (42 shots - 39 saves) winnipeg jets--essensa (33-26-6) (31 shots - 31 saves) att-12,229 toronto maple leafs (44-29-11) 1 1 0 - 2 chicago blackhawks (47-25-12) 0 2 1 - 3 1st period: tor, baumgartner 1 - 18:40 2nd period: chi, roenick 50 - (murphy, chelios) 1:29 tor, andreychuk 55 - (mironov, lefebvre) 13:22 chi, murphy 7 - (roenick, chelios) (pp) 19:05 3rd period: chi, matteau 15 - 10:51 powerplay opportunities-maple leafs 1 of 3 blackhawks 1 of 7 shots on goal- maple leafs 14 4 8 - 26 blackhawks 10 13 13 - 36 toronto maple leafs--potvin (25-15-7) (36 shots - 33 saves) chicago blackhawks--belfour (41-18-11) (26 shots - 24 saves) att-17,856 tampa bay lightning (23-54-7) 0 2 3 - 5 st. louis blues (37-36-11) 3 3 0 - 6 1st period: stl, shanahan 50 - (brown, felsner) 10:44 stl, miller 23 - (bassen, brown) 19:38 stl, bassen 8 - (zombo) 19:48 2nd period: stl, bassen 9 - (hedican, miller) 0:14 stl, miller 24 - (zombo, hedican) 11:09 tbl, maltais 7 - (hamrlik) 11:27 tbl, bergland 3 - (harvey, gilhen) 17:16 tbl, shanahan 51 - (emerson) 19:38 3rd period: tbl, creighton 19 - (bergland, bergevin) 0:40 tbl, chambers 10 - (zamuner, cole) 10:37 tbl, cole 12 - (beers, bradley) 11:58 powerplay opportunities-lightning 0 of 3 blues 0 of 4 shots on goal- lightning 5 12 14 - 31 blues 11 11 4 - 26 tampa bay lightning--jablonski (8-24-4) (22 shots - 16 saves) bergeron (0:00 third) (4 shots - 4 saves) st. louis blues--joseph (29-28-9) (18 shots - 15 saves) hebert (19:20 third) (13 shots - 11 saves) att-17,816 san jose sharks (11-71-2) 0 1 2 - 3 calgary flames (43-30-11) 0 4 3 - 7 1st period: none 2nd period: sjs, garpenlov 22 - (odgers, gaudreau) (pp) 3:37 cal, nieuwendyk 38 - (macinnis, suter) (pp) 5:26 cal, ranheim 21 - (otto, suter) 10:43 cal, yawney 1 - (nieuwendyk, roberts) 11:26 cal, berube 4 - (paslawski, skrudland) 13:45 3rd period: sjs, wood 1 - (odgers, kisio) 8:00 cal, reichel 40 - 9:26 cal, roberts 38 - (musil, paslawski) (pp) 12:27 sjs, kisio 26 - 13:10 cal, paslawski 18 - (ashton, stern) 16:16 powerplay opportunities-sharks 1 of 3 flames 2 of 4 shots on goal- sharks 5 11 9 - 25 flames 11 14 7 - 32 san jose sharks--irbe (7-25-0) (32 shots - 25 saves) calgary flames--vernon (29-26-9) (25 shots - 22 saves) att-19,532 vancouver canucks (46-29-9) 1 2 5 - 8 los angeles kings (39-35-10) 2 3 1 - 6 1st period: lak, robitaille 63 - (gretzky, sandstrom) 1:39 van, babych 3 - (craven, nedved) (pp) 9:43 lak, sandstrom 25 - (gretzky, robitaille) 10:06 2nd period: van, linden 32 - (ronning, courtnall) (pp) 0:54 van, ward 22 - (hunter, nedved) 1:24 lak, gretzky 16 - (sandstrom, robitaille) 6:57 lak, zhitnik 12 - (kurri, robitaille) (pp) 14:02 lak, millen 23 - (hardy) (pp) 16:57 3rd period: van, ronning 27 - (dirk) 5:28 van, ronning 28 - (courtnall, linden) (pp) 11:15 van, linden 33 - (courtnall, ronning) 11:27 lak, donnelly 29 - (millen, granato) (pp) 14:35 van, courtnall 31 - (ronning, ratushny) 14:54 van, ronning 29 - (linden, diduck) (en) 18:47 powerplay opportunities-canucks 3 of 6 kings 3 of 10 shots on goal- canucks 8 6 16 - 30 kings 10 21 10 - 41 vanocuver canucks--whitmore (18-8-4) (41 shots - 35 saves) los angeles kings--stauber (23 shots - 17 saves) hrudey (17-21-6) (11:27 third) (6 shots - 5 saves) att-16,005 -spike- 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53876">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53876" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 a fine 26 year history came to a close tonight, as the minnesota north stars, or norm's stars (whichever you prefer) lost to the red wings by a score of 5-3. the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen, who netted two including the final one in franchise history, with less than a minute to this is very sad indeed. my condolences to the minnesota fans who are losing their team. i fear that within the next decade or so the only professional sports team left in pittsburgh will be the steelers. we should always enjoy things when we can. you never know when they'll be taken away from us. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53882">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53882" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd, they are a very deep team, with two very capable goalies, and excellent forwards and defensemen. shooter in richer, an all around do it all in todd, chef stasny-master of a thousand dishes, power play kevin todd is an oiler and has been one for months. how closely do you follow the devils, anyway? jeez.... this was written about the game nhlpa hockey '93. which does not have precise up-to-date rosters. why don't people think before they post? jeez... go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53885">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53885" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i was wondering if any star trek tng fans in this newsgroup knew of a possible relationship between the bruins' players douris & moog and the klingon names duras and worf (son of moog). i suppose it's a coincidence. just curious, 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53892">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53892" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 ditto... if we allow people like him to continue to do what he does, it's a shame. people say that cheap shots and drawing penalties by fake- ing is part of the game, i say "bullsh-t!". if he ever tried some like that on a yzerman, he'd would have to deal with probert now wouldn't he? what ulf does isn't even retaliatory! there's now way one could justify what he does and if they do they're fools. /----\==========/ patrick walker / /--\ =========/ university of new brunswick i i()i ======/ canada \ \--/ / detroit fan extraordinaire. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53894">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53894" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 showing a meaningless (relatively) baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than 3 seconds left on the clock? gimme a break! where does espn get these brilliant decisions from? daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53896">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53896" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 tuesday, and the isles/caps game is going into overtime. what does espn do..... tom mees says, "we are obligated to bring you baseball" we're probably stuck, as mike burger pointed out that the baseball deal was made far in advance of the nhl contract. wabc did the same thing; they were thankful that the devils were wiped out by 9:30, because they had to switch over to yankees baseball. the proof of the reasons for this is left to the reader ... it's too bad, but i wonder if espn is stuck with other us local team coverage for their alternate games? we got nesn's coverage of the bruins-sabres with the boston homers ... they were awful!!! i've read that derek sanderson is the colour analyst ... i wonder if he spent his early years after hockey as an intern at pravda before landing this job? *everything* had to be twisted into something good to say about the bruin(s) involved ... not even bill wirtz's shills on sc chicago (pat foley, dale tallon) were this bad. and just to be fair, sc used to take their feed from esn (empire sports network), the sabre homers and they were horrible too ... but they were spacy. from the cnn highlights, i hear chris cuthbert's voice from the cbc coverage of the habs-nords series. too bad that we couldn't get it on espn, with all due respect to the sabres and the bruins. mike emrick is substituting on the devils scny team for gary thorne. mike was the original devils tv play-by-play announcer, by the way. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53898">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53898" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 san jose will then get kariya ya know that kind of funny cause i've seen kariya on campus with a sharks hat on....... pat ellis p.s. go bruins go umaine black bears 42-1-2 number 1...... hockey east regulars season champions..... hockey east tournament champions>...... paul kariya, hobey baker award winner....... ncaa div. 1 hockey tournament champions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! m-a-i-n-e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53905">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53905" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 as for the picks ottawa picks #1 which means it is almost 100% that alexander daigle will go #1. he'll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec. imo i would take kariya. he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships. daigle didn't show this for his junior team. san jose will then get kariya. tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov (i think that's it) or a defenseman rob niedemeyer (probably spelt the last name wrong) the last name is niedermayer, as in new jersey's scott's last name, because (you guessed it) they are brothers. but rob niedermayer is a center, not a defenseman. i am not sure that the sharks will take kariya. they aren't saying much, but they apparently like niedermayer and victor kozlov, along with kariya. chris pronger's name has also been mentioned. my guess is that they'll take niedermayer. they may take pronger, except that they already have too many defensive prospects. go calgary flames! al macinnis for norris! gary roberts for hart and smythe! go edmonton oilers! go for playoffs next year! stay in edmonton! nelson lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu) rec.sport.hockey contact for the san jose sharks 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53908">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53908" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ok, i'm sure that this has been asked 100's of times before, but i have wondered since i heard it... where the hell did the nickname of the "habs" come from for the montreal canadiens? thanks in advance, caine schneider 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53909">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53909" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 *** national hockey league *** 92-93 season home attendance report each qtr. represents 10 home games, qtr. 4 will have 11 home games. neutral site games are not included. s/o indicates the number of sell-outs. name qtr. 1 s/o qtr. 2 s/o qtr. 3 s/o qtr. 4 s/o totals average bos 140,573 5 142,694 7 142,768 6 152,468 8 578,503 14,109 buf 144,701 0 148,516 3 152,133 5 168,878 4 614,228 14,981 cal 190,125 1 196,174 3 196,982 4 217,346 5 800,627 19,527 chi 176,372 10 176,746 9 177,981 10 196,749 11 727,848 17,752 det 196,330 10 196,670 10 197,228 10 217,167 10 807,395 19,692 edm 139,038 0 149,422 2 152,831 2 165,384 2 606,675 14,796 har 92,994 0 110,670 2 108,651 0 122,123 0 434,438 10,596 la 154,065 5 159,014 8 160,050 10 176,055 11 649,184 15,833 min 130,710 2 140,933 3 139,986 1 160,213 4 571,842 13,947 mon 168,097 8 169,671 10 168,784 10 190,186 11 696,738 16,993 nj 127,053 0 124,011 2 145,856 2 163,050 1 559,970 13,657 nyi 114,706 1 108,502 1 123,167 3 139,946 0 486,321 11,861 nyr 178,200 7 179,990 6 182,000 10 199,337 8 739,527 18,037 ott 104,713 10 105,000 10 104,602 10 115,330 11 429,645 10,479 phi 172,372 4 172,967 3 172,613 2 190,520 5 708,472 17,279 pit 160,379 6 161,475 8 161,280 6 177,705 10 660,839 16,118 que 149,452 3 147,911 3 147,394 2 168,830 8 613,587 14,965 sj 110,890 10 110,374 8 110,120 7 121,745 10 453,129 11,051 stl 156,313 3 170,531 5 171,249 5 187,849 7 685,942 16,730 tb 97,269 5 99,621 6 99,611 4 114,059 9 410,560 10,013 tor 155,500 4 157,779 9 157,014 8 172,888 11 643,181 15,687 van 144,120 0 154,184 4 157,094 6 176,751 8 632,149 15,418 was 153,209 0 163,563 1 161,479 2 171,711 2 649,962 15,852 win 131,072 0 135,902 1 133,414 1 154,956 2 555,344 13,544 3,488,253 3,582,320 3,624,287 4,021,246 14,716,106 avg. 14,534 14,926 15,101 15,231 14,955 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53911">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53911" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 f**king *no* hockey games televised nationally tonight! what the hell is this??? why the hell is espn showing some stupid baseball game, when baseball is not even three weeks into the season and hockey is in the playoffs??? no, wait, i know the answer: $$$$$$ but still! it really espn had the houston astros @ chicago cubs game scheduled for last night on the west coast. since the game was rained out, they showed the toronto maple leafs at the detroit red wings game instead. stan willis net contact: la kings 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53914">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53914" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 1993 world championships in germany: group a results: sweden - canada 1-4 (0-0,1-1,0-3) 1st: 2nd: can 0-1 geoff sanderson (kevin dineen) 7:24 swe 1-1 patrik juhlin (jan larsson) 15:23 (pp) 3rd: can 1-2 geoff sanderson 5:54 (ps) can 1-3 mike gartner (greg johnson,adam graves) 10:44 can 1-4 rod brind'amour (shayne corson) 19:59 shots on goal: penalties: attendance: referee: sweden 10 15 12 - 37 4*2min 6,500 rob hearn (usa) canada 10 13 6 - 29 6*2min bill ranford stopped 36 shots to lead canada to a 4-1 victory in a very well played game. the first period started with a give away from a canadian defenseman and rundqvist came in alone on ranford but couldn't put the puck over a sliding ranford. later on, kevin dineen had a great opportunity but soderstrom played very well too. stefan nilsson had a couple of great dekes and set up jan larsson but again ranford came up big. period ended scoreless but the edge to sweden in creating more opportunities. second period action saw tommy soderstrom making a great save. mark recchi made a backhanded cross ice pass to lindros, eric one timed the puck but soderstrom was there to make a glove hand save. at the 7-minute mark, canada started applying pressure on the swedes. sanderson-dineen-brind'amour worked hard and kept the puck in the swedes' zone. dineen gave the puck to sanderson who skated around a screened swedish defenseman, came in on soderstrom and made a wrist shot that went it by soderstrom's far post, 1-0 canada. the swedes picked up their game after that, and peter forsberg had a shot that hit ranford's post (the inside), went parallel to the goal line and out. then gartner got a penalty and the swedes a power play. jan larsson took a shot from the slot, ranford gave a rebound to larsson who saw juhlin by the far post, passed the puck and ranford was beat, 1-1. third period started as the other periods, swedes having most of the pressure but the canadians always dangerous once they were close to the swede goal. at 5:54, canada created some great chances and arto blomsten was forced to cover the puck in the swede goal crease since soderstrom lost sight of it. that resulted in a penalty shot, since a defenseman can't cover the puck in the goal crease. geoff sanderson took the penalty shot (his first ever, he explained afterwards), and he put it low on soderstrom's stick side, close to the post. excellent penalty shot to give canada a go ahead goal. canada increased the lead on a very suspect offside, gartner volleyed a bouncing puck past soderstrom to make it 3-1. the swedes ran out of gas then and couldn't produce as good scoring chances as they had for 2,5 periods. the 4-1 goal came with only 1 second left, rod brind'amour scoring on a rebound from soderstrom, where the swedish defense already had their minds in the dressing room. a very good game (the best in the wc so far?), with both goalies playing great. soderstrom best player in sweden, but ranford even played better than soderstrom, that tells you something about ranford. probably the best goalie in the world, were some comments after the game. canada played a very disciplined defense, ranford pointed out that it is easy to play well with a good defense. lindros played a lot and played well, sanderson naturally game hero with two goals. the forsberg-naslund-bergqvist line sweden's best along with larsson-juhlin- nilsson. swedish defense played well, 197 cm 104 kg peter popovic had the task of neutralizing 192 cm 107 kg eric lindros, and managed this very well. ranger defenseman peter andersson finally got to go to the wc, and considering that he landed in germany just a few hours before the game, he played very well. swedish coach curt lundmark was irritated after the game, partly because of the swedes inability to score, and partly because of the linesman's mistake on the 1-3 goal. lines information follows further below. italy - switzerland 1-0 (0-0,1-0,0-0) 1st: 2nd: ita 1-0 orlando 15:47 3rd: penalties: ita 10*2min, swi 8*2min referee: anton danko, slovakia attendance: 3,500 group b results: czech republic - germany 5-0 (0-0,3-0,2-0) 1st: 2nd: cze 1-0 kamil kastak 1:51 cze 2-0 jiri dolezal 12:26 cze 3-0 petr hrbek 19:10 3rd: cze 4-0 radek toupal 8:28 cze 5-0 josef beranek 17:07 penalties: cze 7*2min, ger 6*2min 1*5min 1*10min game penalty referee: darren loraas, canada attendance: 10,200 the czechs were clearly better than the germans, and the german crowd showed their discontent by throwing in stuff on the ice after a while. finland - usa 1-1 (0-0,1-0,0-1) 1st: 2nd: fin 1-0 jarkko varvio 4:00 3rd: usa 1-1 ed olczyk 4:26 penalties: fin 7*2min, usa 6*2min referee: valeri bokarev, russia attendance: 2,800 i hope some finns can provide information from this game (i didn't see the whole game). the finns took the lead on a jarkko varvio slap shot from the blue line, and a soft goal for an unscreened mike richter. as far as the play in the second period goes, the finns seemed to have the most control, so a 1-0 lead was warranted as i saw it. sweden canada goaltender: 30 tommy soderstrom 30 bill ranford defense: 8 kenneth kennholt 5 norm maciver 14 fredrik stillman 24 dave manson 3 peter popovic 25 geoff smith 55 peter andersson 19 brian benning 7 arto blomsten 6 terry carkner 28 roger akerstrom 3 garry galley 4 derek mayer forwards: 29 mikael renberg 15 dave gagner 9 thomas rundqvist 27 adam graves 34 mikael andersson 22 mike gartner 19 markus naslund 20 paul kariya 21 peter forsberg 88 eric lindros 18 jonas bergqvist 8 mark recchi 5 patrik juhlin 17 rod brind'amour 20 jan larsson 9 shayne corson 4 stefan nilsson 11 kevin dineen 22 charles berglund 10 geoff sanderson 26 michael nylander 12 greg johnson (34 andersson/18 bergqvist) 14 brian savage 16 kelly buchberger ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 the san francisco bay area media is reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs 6-3. can someone who is not part of the media conspiracy against the leafs tell me how the game really went (i am expecting a 4-0 win for the leafs, shutout for potvin, hat trick for andreychuk and a goal and 3 assists for gilmour). if the leafs really lost, how many penalties did whichever biased ref was at the game have to call against the leafs to let the red wings win? ah yes. california. did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana is rumoured to be the leading candidate to replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston? apparently montana is not only coveted for his winning attitude, but as a playing coach he will be expected to quarterback the powerplay. good thing those walls are so soft, eh rollie? cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53920">
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 what's going on? the russians and the czechs are unable to beat easy opponents, and the swedes beat austria only 1:0?!? it's the "opening-game effect" maybe. pros arrive late, nervousness for rookie wc players, and problems to get the lines clicking may make things hard to get it going against these "worse" nations. i'd guess that the better team you face in the opening game, the better it is, since the chances of an upset are greater then. some other reasons why the "worse" teams are so tough to beat was presented by hans "virus" lindberg (former coach in switzerland). 1) the "worse" teams (referring to france, switzerland, austria, italy etc) have now usually world class goalies. 2) their defensive play have become much more disciplined, they take much less unnecessary penalties. 3) they use four lines which makes it harder to make them "run out of gas." 4) the ice quality in the german wc rinks is poor. the only convincing winner was... germany. wierd. another weird thing was that the czechs played entertaining hockey.. err.. just kidding, david. p.s. alex, i would like to see the czech roster, including, if possible, the clubs from which the players come. how many are "finnish", "german", or "swiss"? alex? that's a new name for me ;) ok, i forgot the czech roster at home yesterday, but now i have it. i don't know the teams for all players, so i would appreciate if you guys could fill in the blanks for me (especially i think some of these players play in finland). the czech republic goaltenders: 1. petr briza (finland somewhere, right?) 2. roman turek motor c. budejovice defense: 3. leo gudas ? 4. milos holan tj vitkovice 5. drahomir kadlec ? 6. bedrich scerban brynas, sweden 7. antonin stavjana hv 71, sweden 8. miroslav horava modo, sweden 9. ales flasar tj vitkovice forwards: 10. petr rosol ? 12. kamil kastak hv 71, sweden 13. richard zemlicka ? 14. jiri kucera ? 16. jan caloun hc litvinov 18. petr hrbek ? 19. tomas kapusta ? 20. otakar janecky (finland?) 21. roman horak motor c. budejovice 22. martin hostak modo, sweden 24. radek toupal ? 26. jiri dolezal ? ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53923">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53923" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 first off, anyone accepted into the western business school is not a dork. second, just because one person out of a country of 27 million doesn't think before he/she posts an article, does not mean that he/she is embarrasing canada. this network is for expressing what you feel are your thoughts. just because someone doesn't agree with you, this does not give you the right to call them assholes. anyways, the north stars are shit!!!!!!!!! c'mon leafs... whoa there! lighten up, andrew! when i was referring to "you dorks at the western business school", i was specifically referring to those assholes writing obnoxious comments insulting the state and people of minnesota for no apparent reason. being canadian, and one who has friends who attended uwo, i personally don't want to be associated with the idiots who wrote those messages. one more thing, andrew...until this season, the leafs have sucked pretty badly over the last umpteen years (have they won the cup during our lifetime?)...so the north stars haven't been the only "shit" team in the norris. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53924">
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 on tuesday, when it was raining in chicago, espn provided bonus hockey coverage. now it seems as though some fans are ticked off that the ny-wash ot was replaced with the angels-?? game. people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead of hockey fans in the u.s the baseball game was scheduled to air and advertisers money was paid so they can't skip the baseball game. why don't you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get. geoff filinuk 
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 new jersey 1 0 2--3 pittsburgh 2 3 1--6 first period 1, pittsburgh, tocchet 1 (stevens, lemieux) pp, 1:40. 2, new jersey, barr 1 (guerin, holik) 6:24. 3, pittsburgh, lemieux 1 (jagr, ramsey) 9:33. second period 4, pittsburgh, lemieux 2 (stevens, murphy) pp, 4:11. 5, pittsburgh, francis 1 (ramsey, mullen) 12:57. 6, pittsburgh, tippett 1 (jagr, mceachern) 17:13. third period 7, pittsburgh, jagr 1 (samuelsson, lemieux) pp, 8:35. 8, new jersey, stevens 1 (niedermayer, driver) pp, 11:48. 9, new jersey, stevens 2 (semak, niedermayer) 18:56. pittsburgh: 6 power play: 8-3 scorer g a pts francis 1 0 1 jagr 1 2 3 lemieux 2 2 4 mceachern 0 1 1 mullen 0 1 1 murphy 0 1 1 ramsey 0 2 2 samuelsson 0 1 1 stevens 0 2 2 tippett 1 0 1 tocchet 1 0 1 new jersey: 3 power play: 8-1 scorer g a pts barr 1 0 1 driver 0 1 1 guerin 0 1 1 holik 0 1 1 niedermayer 0 2 2 semak 0 1 1 stevens 2 0 2 st louis 0 2 2--4 chicago 1 2 0--3 first period 1, chicago, noonan 1 (larmer, brown) 8:17. second period 2, st louis, brown 1 (shanahan, emerson) 3:12. 3, chicago, noonan 2 (roenick, chelios) pp, 5:40. 4, chicago, noonan 3 (matteau, sutter) 8:51. 5, st louis, felsner 1 (mcrae, janney) 12:49. third period 6, st louis, shanahan 1 (brown, hull) pp, 11:12. 7, st louis, hull 1 (emerson, brown) pp, 11:29. st louis: 4 power play: 4-2 scorer g a pts brown 1 2 3 emerson 0 2 2 felsner 1 0 1 hull 1 1 2 janney 0 1 1 mcrae 0 1 1 shanahan 1 1 2 chicago: 3 power play: 7-1 scorer g a pts brown 0 1 1 chelios 0 1 1 larmer 0 1 1 matteau 0 1 1 noonan 3 0 3 roenick 0 1 1 sutter 0 1 1 los angeles 1 3 2--6 calgary 0 1 2--3 first period 1, los angeles, sydor 1 (gretzky, sandstrom) 0:16. second period 2, calgary, suter 1 (fleury) sh, 2:48. 3, los angeles, carson 1 (shuchuk, sydor) pp, 3:13. 4, los angeles, huddy 1 (taylor, rychel) 3:37. 5, los angeles, mcsorley 1 (unassisted) 6:36. third period 6, los angeles, millen 1 (granato, donnelly) 1:06. 7, calgary, dahlquist 1 (otto) 4:23. 8, calgary, yawney 1 (macinnis, reichel) 8:47. 9, los angeles, carson 2 (sandstrom, robitaille) pp, 10:32. los angeles: 6 power play: 10-2 scorer g a pts carson 2 0 2 donnelly 0 1 1 granato 0 1 1 gretzky 0 1 1 huddy 1 0 1 mcsorley 1 0 1 millen 1 0 1 robitaille 0 1 1 rychel 0 1 1 sandstrom 0 2 2 shuchuk 0 1 1 sydor 1 1 2 taylor 0 1 1 calgary: 3 power play: 8-0 special goals: sh: 1 total: 1 scorer g a pts dahlquist 1 0 1 fleury 0 1 1 macinnis 0 1 1 otto 0 1 1 reichel 0 1 1 suter 1 0 1 yawney 1 0 1 first period 1, ny islanders, ferraro 1 (flatley, vaske) 5:56. second period no scoring. third period 2, washington, hunter 1 (elynuik, krygier) 3:18. 3, washington, hunter 2 (khristich, johansson) pp, 7:01. 4, washington, khristich 1 (pivonka, johansson) pp, 15:25. washington: 3 power play: 5-2 scorer g a pts elynuik 0 1 1 hunter 2 0 2 johansson 0 2 2 khristich 1 1 2 krygier 0 1 1 pivonka 0 1 1 ny islanders: 1 power play: 5-0 scorer g a pts ferraro 1 0 1 flatley 0 1 1 vaske 0 1 1 buffalo 2 1 1 1--5 boston 0 2 2 0--4 first period 1, buffalo, hannan 1 (unassisted) 2:32. 2, buffalo, lafontaine 1 (mogilny) 9:26. second period 3, boston, juneau 1 (neely, oates) pp, 7:20. 4, boston, neely 1 (oates, juneau) 14:42. 5, buffalo, mogilny 1 (hawerchuk, smehlik) 19:55. third period 6, buffalo, mogilny 2 (unassisted) 3:46. 7, boston, neely 2 (juneau, oates) 15:44. 8, boston, heinze 1 (juneau) 17:00. 9, buffalo, sweeney 1 (khmylev, smehlik) 11:03. buffalo: 5 power play: 3-0 scorer g a pts hannan 1 0 1 hawerchuk 0 1 1 khmylev 0 1 1 lafontaine 1 0 1 mogilny 2 1 3 smehlik 0 2 2 sweeney 1 0 1 boston: 4 power play: 7-1 scorer g a pts heinze 1 0 1 juneau 1 3 4 neely 2 1 3 oates 0 3 3 montreal 1 1 0 0--2 quebec 0 0 2 1--3 first period 1, montreal, dionne 1 (dipietro, brunet) 5:52. second period 2, montreal, bellows 1 (muller, desjardins) 9:58. third period 3, quebec, rucinsky 1 (lapointe, sundin) pp, 18:31. 4, quebec, sakic 1 (lapointe) 19:12. 5, quebec, young 1 (ricci, duchesne) 16:49. quebec: 3 power play: 4-1 scorer g a pts duchesne 0 1 1 lapointe 0 2 2 ricci 0 1 1 rucinsky 1 0 1 sakic 1 0 1 sundin 0 1 1 young 1 0 1 montreal: 2 power play: 1-0 scorer g a pts bellows 1 0 1 brunet 0 1 1 desjardins 0 1 1 dionne 1 0 1 dipietro 0 1 1 muller 0 1 1 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53928">
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 ok, i forgot the czech roster at home yesterday, but now i have it. i don't know the teams for all players, so i would appreciate if you guys could fill in the blanks for me (especially i think some of these players play in finland). the czech republic goaltenders: 1. petr briza (finland somewhere, right?) signed contract for ev landshut, germany for the 1993/94 season defense: 3. leo gudas ? ec hedos muenchen, germany since 1992. s i e m e n s holger ohlwein ap153 otto-hahn-ring 6 8000 muenchen 83 ------------- tel: + 49 (89) 636-3746 email: holger.ohlwein@ap.mchp.sni.de n i x d o r f never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid all together. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53929">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53929" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 being a proud bu alumnus, i'd like to get a list of bu players in the nhl so i can keep an eye on their progress. a lot of terriers are graduating this year so i hope to see them soon in the nhl. if somebody could post or send me a list, i'd appreciate it. please note if the player graduated from here or not. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53930">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53930" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i just overheard that san jose coach george kingston was officially terminated today... maybe good news, maybe bad. i kinda liked him, but he seemed to lack a certain fire. bill gibson : gibson.bill@applelink.apple.com chief technical sponge : applelink: gibson.bill apple computer, inc. : just say: sharks!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53931">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53931" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 what's the deal? c.s.h. has nothing on it yet. is it in ot, is it over, what? i want to know! we all want to know! where's roger when you need him?!?!?!?! :-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "a cow is not a vegetarian dish." -- keith keller, 1993 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53932">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53932" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 current votes for favorite goalie masks (3pts - 1st, 2pts - 2nd, 1pt - 3rd) others receiving less than 4pts: mike vernon (cal), clint glenn healy (nyi), toy espo (???), gilles gratton (???), is this tony esposito? if memory serves me correctly, chicago. god i hope i am right, otherwise i will never hear the end of it. ;-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "a cow is not a vegetarian dish." -- keith keller, 1993 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53936">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53936" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 : detroit's going to beat toronto in 6 or less!!! : granted, gilmour should get the hart trophy, not lemieux... just : look at what gilmour did for toronto. when you think of toronto, : who comes to mind, gilmour, andreychuk, potvin...ah...did i mentio : n gilmour? when you think of the nhl, who comes to mind? gilmour? gretzky? mario? .. ah... did i mention mario? if you said gretzky, you haven't really been following along, have you. if you said gilmour, you are a true i don't even think the selection of the hart deserves serious discussion on this group. it is a no-brainer. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53938">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53938" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 quebec dominated habs for first 2 periods and only roy kept this one from being rout, although he did blow 2nd goal. canadians showed up in third but nords were playing dump & pull back most of the time. do you notice that _nobody_ on the team is willing to take charge? a dominant defenceman would be nice....too bad schneider got hurt. he reminds me of chris chelios sometimes. speaking of chelios, i wonder if serge savard feels like a moron for making that trade. i also wish we still had corson. rob ramage on the ice is less useful than a gatorade bottle on the vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation, apparently. i have no idea why demers is playing denis savard on the checking line with carbonneau. savard is skating well, and is one of the only dangerous canadiens in quebec's zone with the puck. too bad nobody is in front most of the time. do you also notice that in the defensive zone, not a single nordique gets knocked down? it's disgusting. we also have lebeau (5'10", 172) getting pasted at centre ice by wolaninn (6'3", 205) with no reply from the team, except to yell for a penalty. dammit, denis savard threw the best (only?) montreal hit of the night when he knocked sundin off-balance. when denis savard is your team's enforcer, there's big trouble someplace... hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost in first period when nords scored 3 & could have had 5, plus another 4 in 2nd. aside from that second goal, roy did stand on his head. the third period at least provided something to look forward to. habs won the period, imo, and i guess somebody finally came along to smack them a couple of times in the second intermission to remind them that a game had started at 7:30. hopefully they play that way at home. roy made the saves (we'll ignore that second goal), so now it's up to the team. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca p.s. to all those grant fuhr doubters.....buffalo 4, boston 0. 'nuff said. and did somebody say dale hunter was a playoff choker? i'd rethink that position :-) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53941">
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 monday, april 12, 1993 kamloops 4 @ spokane 1 (kamloops wins 3-0) western final matchup kamloops @ portland tuesday, april 13, 1993 no games necessary. wednesday, april 14, 1993 no games necessary. thursday, april 15, 1993 no games scheduled. friday, april 16, 1993 regina 2 @ swift current 7 (series: 0-1) kamloops 3 @ portland 6 (series: 0-1) saturday, april 17, 1993 kamloops 4 @ portland 8 (series: 0-2) sunday, april 18, 1993 swift current 5 @ regina 2 (series: 2-0) whl playoff scoring leaders april 18, 1993 player gp g a pts jamie black, tacoma 7 7 15 22 andy schneider, swift current 8 7 13 20 valeri bure, spokane 9 6 11 17 allan egeland, tacoma 7 9 7 16 dean mcammond, swift current 8 9 6 15 jason krywulak, swift current 8 6 9 15 cam danyluk, medicine hat 10 9 5 14 todd holt, swift current 8 5 9 14 tyler wright, swift current 8 5 9 14 mike mathers, kamloops 10 5 9 14 jeff friesen, regina 11 5 9 14 rick girard, swift current 8 3 11 14 whl playoff leading goaltenders april 18, 1993 (minimum 60 minutes) player mp ga so gaa scott langkow, portland 295 12 0 2.44 milan hnilicka, swift current 497 21 1 2.54 trevor robins, brandon 258 11 0 2.56 steve passmore, kamloops 341 16 1 2.82 mark dawkins, red deer 269 13 0 2.90 randy a. coulman, m.sc. | aries laboratory research assistant | department of computational science | university of saskatchewan coulman@cs.usask.ca | saskatoon, sk s7n 0w0 
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 i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me, so i can put these stats on the archive site. contact me by mail if you want to volunteer. here are the individual goalie stats as of: wed apr 21 09:09:38 cst 1993 these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above. they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday. they don't print shots and save percentage numbers, so those are not verified. these stats are available by mail every weekday and sometimes on weekends, if i'm in town and i can get late game results. just send me a note if you would like to receive these stats by mail. if you have any questions, comments or suggestions, let me know. mp = minutes played, ga = goals against, so = shutouts, gaa = goals against average w = wins, l = losses, t = ties sog = shots on goal, sv = save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 0 1.000 was byron dafoe 11 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 3 1.000 har corrie d'alessio 40 1 0 1.50 0 0 0 19 0.947 mtl frederick chabot 25 1 0 2.40 0 0 0 10 0.900 bos mike bales 2781 116 2 2.50 25 15 7 1287 0.910 tor felix potvin 4106 177 7 2.59 41 18 11 1879 0.906 chi ed belfour 1322 64 1 2.90 9 8 4 596 0.893 bos john blue 996 49 2 2.95 6 7 1 414 0.882 chi jim waite 3702 186 4 3.01 43 14 5 1889 0.902 pit tom barrasso 3890 196 1 3.02 29 28 9 2194 0.911 stl curtis joseph 1817 94 1 3.10 18 8 4 858 0.890 van kay whitmore 1429 75 0 3.15 11 10 4 716 0.895 buf dominik hasek 3194 168 3 3.16 37 14 3 1354 0.876 bos andy moog 1311 70 1 3.20 14 4 1 629 0.889 cal jeff reese 3595 192 2 3.20 31 25 5 1813 0.894 mtl patrick roy 168 9 0 3.21 1 1 1 87 0.897 har mike lenarduzzi 1193 64 0 3.22 13 4 2 522 0.877 det vincent riendeau 1785 96 2 3.23 17 7 4 938 0.898 tor daren puppa 3880 210 4 3.25 34 24 7 1898 0.889 det tim cheveldae 3732 203 2 3.26 29 26 9 1805 0.888 cal mike vernon 2655 146 1 3.30 22 20 2 1314 0.889 nyi glenn healy 3359 185 1 3.30 24 24 6 1726 0.893 buf grant fuhr 2757 152 4 3.31 20 18 7 1519 0.900 nyr john vanbiesbrouck 3282 181 1 3.31 27 23 5 1531 0.882 was don beaupre 3476 193 3 3.33 26 26 5 1683 0.885 min jon casey 3261 184 3 3.39 28 21 5 1620 0.886 van kirk mclean 2672 151 2 3.39 19 21 3 1322 0.886 nj chris terreri 1433 81 1 3.39 17 5 1 686 0.882 mtl andre racicot 1939 110 0 3.40 18 9 4 947 0.884 que stephane fiset 2512 143 5 3.42 20 17 6 1329 0.892 phi tommy soderstrom 1368 78 0 3.42 13 7 2 691 0.887 pit ken wregget 542 31 0 3.43 5 4 0 225 0.862 bos reggie lemelin 2988 172 0 3.45 29 16 5 1525 0.887 que ron hextall 2253 130 0 3.46 17 15 5 1067 0.878 nyi mark fitzpatrick 3855 227 2 3.53 33 26 6 2119 0.893 win bob essensa 1601 96 0 3.60 15 10 2 777 0.876 win jim hrivnak 1596 97 1 3.65 10 12 5 803 0.879 min darcy wakaluk 1591 97 0 3.66 7 19 2 757 0.872 tb wendell young 1163 71 0 3.66 8 10 1 573 0.876 tb jc bergeron 2389 146 2 3.67 21 16 4 1180 0.876 nj craig billington 1210 74 1 3.67 8 8 2 628 0.882 stl guy hebert 1302 80 2 3.69 8 12 0 664 0.880 was rick tabaracci 664 41 0 3.70 5 6 0 344 0.881 buf tom draper 224 14 0 3.75 1 2 1 116 0.879 nyr corey hirsch 1769 111 1 3.76 13 11 5 932 0.881 phi dominic roussel 2105 134 1 3.82 13 19 3 1184 0.887 nyr mike richter 157 10 0 3.82 1 2 0 78 0.872 nyi danny lorenz 3753 240 1 3.84 17 38 6 2069 0.884 edm bill ranford 1735 111 0 3.84 15 8 4 987 0.888 la robb stauber 2718 175 2 3.86 18 21 6 1545 0.887 la kelly hrudey 154 10 0 3.90 0 2 1 66 0.848 que jacques cloutier 867 57 0 3.94 5 9 1 499 0.886 har mario gosselin 532 35 0 3.95 6 4 0 294 0.881 la rick knickle 2268 150 1 3.97 8 24 4 1197 0.875 tb pat jablonski 2074 142 1 4.11 7 26 0 1250 0.886 sj arturs irbe 2656 184 0 4.16 16 27 3 1470 0.875 har sean burke 1338 93 0 4.17 9 12 2 763 0.878 edm ron tugnutt 1326 95 0 4.30 2 17 1 743 0.872 ott daniel berthiaume 802 59 0 4.41 3 9 0 405 0.854 phi stephane beauregard 3388 250 0 4.43 8 46 3 1711 0.854 ott peter sidorkiewicz 65 5 0 4.62 0 0 1 39 0.872 cal andrei trefilov 1373 111 0 4.85 4 15 1 784 0.858 har frank pietrangelo 73 6 0 4.93 0 0 1 34 0.824 win mike o'neill 60 5 0 5.00 0 1 0 46 0.891 sj wade flaherty 2000 176 0 5.28 2 30 1 1220 0.856 sj jeff hackett 930 86 0 5.55 2 14 1 559 0.846 sj brian hayward 160 15 0 5.63 0 3 0 91 0.835 tor rick wamsley 20 2 0 6.00 0 0 0 7 0.714 was olaf kolzig 90 10 0 6.67 0 2 0 44 0.773 ott darrin madeley 249 30 0 7.23 0 5 0 146 0.795 ott steve weeks 98 13 0 7.96 0 2 0 51 0.745 la david goverde 45 7 0 9.33 0 1 0 21 0.667 tb david littman randy a. coulman, m.sc. | aries laboratory research assistant | department of computational science | university of saskatchewan coulman@cs.usask.ca | saskatoon, sk s7n 0w0 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53943">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53943" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me, so i can put these stats on the archive site. contact me by mail if you want to volunteer. here are the team goalie stats as of: wed apr 21 09:09:38 cst 1993 these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above. they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday. they don't print shots and save percentage numbers, so those are not verified. if you have any questions, comments or suggestions, let me know. mp = minutes played, ga = goals against, so = shutouts, gaa = goals against average w = wins, l = losses, t = ties sog = shots on goal, sv = save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player 4106 177 7 2.59 41 18 11 1879 0.906 chi ed belfour 996 49 2 2.95 6 7 1 414 0.882 chi jim waite 5108 230 9 2.70 47 25 12 2296 0.900 chi 479 18 2 2.25 6 2 0 232 0.922 tor daren puppa 2781 116 2 2.50 25 15 7 1287 0.910 tor felix potvin 1665 87 1 3.14 13 9 4 823 0.894 tor grant fuhr 160 15 0 5.63 0 3 0 91 0.835 tor rick wamsley 5097 241 5 2.84 44 29 11 2438 0.901 tor 25 1 0 2.40 0 0 0 10 0.900 bos mike bales 1322 64 1 2.90 9 8 4 596 0.893 bos john blue 3194 168 3 3.16 37 14 3 1354 0.876 bos andy moog 542 31 0 3.43 5 4 0 225 0.862 bos reggie lemelin 5096 268 4 3.16 51 26 7 2190 0.878 bos 3702 186 4 3.01 43 14 5 1889 0.902 pit tom barrasso 1368 78 0 3.42 13 7 2 691 0.887 pit ken wregget 5083 268 5 3.16 56 21 7 2582 0.896 pit 3890 196 1 3.02 29 28 9 2194 0.911 stl curtis joseph 1210 74 1 3.67 8 8 2 628 0.882 stl guy hebert 5110 278 2 3.26 36 36 11 2825 0.902 stl 1817 94 1 3.10 18 8 4 858 0.890 van kay whitmore 3261 184 3 3.39 28 21 5 1620 0.886 van kirk mclean 5087 278 4 3.28 46 29 9 2449 0.886 van 1193 64 0 3.22 13 4 2 522 0.877 det vincent riendeau 3880 210 4 3.25 34 24 7 1898 0.889 det tim cheveldae 5088 280 4 3.30 47 28 9 2425 0.885 det 40 1 0 1.50 0 0 0 19 0.947 mtl frederick chabot 3595 192 2 3.20 31 25 5 1813 0.894 mtl patrick roy 1433 81 1 3.39 17 5 1 686 0.882 mtl andre racicot 5087 280 3 3.30 48 30 6 2522 0.889 mtl 1311 70 1 3.20 14 4 1 629 0.889 cal jeff reese 3732 203 2 3.26 29 26 9 1805 0.888 cal mike vernon 65 5 0 4.62 0 0 1 39 0.872 cal andrei trefilov 5120 282 3 3.30 43 30 11 2476 0.886 cal 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 0 1.000 was byron dafoe 343 10 2 1.75 3 2 0 162 0.938 was rick tabaracci 3282 181 1 3.31 27 23 5 1531 0.882 was don beaupre 1421 83 0 3.50 13 9 2 681 0.878 was jim hrivnak 20 2 0 6.00 0 0 0 7 0.714 was olaf kolzig 5085 286 3 3.37 43 34 7 2391 0.880 was 3476 193 3 3.33 26 26 5 1683 0.885 min jon casey 1596 97 1 3.65 10 12 5 803 0.879 min darcy wakaluk 5090 293 4 3.45 36 38 10 2489 0.882 min 1429 75 0 3.15 11 10 4 716 0.895 buf dominik hasek 1694 98 0 3.47 11 15 2 903 0.891 buf grant fuhr 1306 78 0 3.58 11 5 4 706 0.890 buf daren puppa 664 41 0 3.70 5 6 0 344 0.881 buf tom draper 5104 297 0 3.49 38 36 10 2674 0.889 buf 2655 146 1 3.30 22 20 2 1314 0.889 nyi glenn healy 2253 130 0 3.46 17 15 5 1067 0.878 nyi mark fitzpatrick 157 10 0 3.82 1 2 0 78 0.872 nyi danny lorenz 5088 297 1 3.50 40 37 7 2470 0.880 nyi 1939 110 0 3.40 18 9 4 947 0.884 que stephane fiset 2988 172 0 3.45 29 16 5 1525 0.887 que ron hextall 154 10 0 3.90 0 2 1 66 0.848 que jacques cloutier 5101 300 0 3.53 47 27 10 2536 0.882 que 2672 151 2 3.39 19 21 3 1322 0.886 nj chris terreri 2389 146 2 3.67 21 16 4 1180 0.876 nj craig billington 5080 299 4 3.53 40 37 7 2505 0.881 nj 2757 152 4 3.31 20 18 7 1519 0.900 nyr john vanbiesbrouck 224 14 0 3.75 1 2 1 116 0.879 nyr corey hirsch 2105 134 1 3.82 13 19 3 1184 0.887 nyr mike richter 5108 308 5 3.62 34 39 11 2826 0.891 nyr 2512 143 5 3.42 20 17 6 1329 0.892 phi tommy soderstrom 1769 111 1 3.76 13 11 5 932 0.881 phi dominic roussel 802 59 0 4.41 3 9 0 405 0.854 phi stephane beauregard 5107 319 6 3.75 36 37 11 2672 0.881 phi 3855 227 2 3.53 33 26 6 2119 0.893 win bob essensa 180 13 0 4.33 2 1 0 96 0.865 win jim hrivnak 959 70 0 4.38 5 10 0 502 0.861 win rick tabaracci 73 6 0 4.93 0 0 1 34 0.824 win mike o'neill 5084 320 2 3.78 40 37 7 2755 0.884 win 1591 97 0 3.66 7 19 2 757 0.872 tb wendell young 1163 71 0 3.66 8 10 1 573 0.876 tb jc bergeron 2268 150 1 3.97 8 24 4 1197 0.875 tb pat jablonski 45 7 0 9.33 0 1 0 21 0.667 tb david littman 5088 332 1 3.92 24 53 7 2557 0.870 tb 3753 240 1 3.84 17 38 6 2069 0.884 edm bill ranford 1338 93 0 4.17 9 12 2 763 0.878 edm ron tugnutt 5099 337 1 3.97 26 50 8 2836 0.881 edm 1735 111 0 3.84 15 8 4 987 0.888 la robb stauber 2718 175 2 3.86 18 21 6 1545 0.887 la kelly hrudey 532 35 0 3.95 6 4 0 294 0.881 la rick knickle 98 13 0 7.96 0 2 0 51 0.745 la david goverde 5100 340 2 4.00 39 35 10 2858 0.881 la 11 0 0 0.00 0 0 0 3 1.000 har corrie d'alessio 168 9 0 3.21 1 1 1 87 0.897 har mike lenarduzzi 867 57 0 3.94 5 9 1 499 0.886 har mario gosselin 2656 184 0 4.16 16 27 3 1470 0.875 har sean burke 1373 111 0 4.85 4 15 1 784 0.858 har frank pietrangelo 5097 369 0 4.34 26 52 6 2851 0.871 har 1326 95 0 4.30 2 17 1 743 0.872 ott daniel berthiaume 3388 250 0 4.43 8 46 3 1711 0.854 ott peter sidorkiewicz 90 10 0 6.67 0 2 0 44 0.773 ott darrin madeley 249 30 0 7.23 0 5 0 146 0.795 ott steve weeks 5074 395 0 4.67 10 70 4 2656 0.851 ott 2074 142 1 4.11 7 26 0 1250 0.886 sj arturs irbe 60 5 0 5.00 0 1 0 46 0.891 sj wade flaherty 2000 176 0 5.28 2 30 1 1220 0.856 sj jeff hackett 930 86 0 5.55 2 14 1 559 0.846 sj brian hayward 5077 414 1 4.89 11 71 2 3079 0.866 sj randy a. coulman, m.sc. | aries laboratory research assistant | department of computational science | university of saskatchewan coulman@cs.usask.ca | saskatoon, sk s7n 0w0 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53946">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53946" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don't play, i would like to tune in other games. does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl here are the ones i can remember offhand: kdka 1020 am pittsburgh penguins wabc 770 am new jersey devils wbbm 780 am chicago blackhawks wjm (?) 720 am detroit redwings kmox 1120 am st. louis blues are the flyers on 1210? that's all i can think of. _|__ ted benjamin <_|__+ go cards!! go cavs!! tedb@tyrell.msfc.nasa.gov __|___> go blues!! go vols!! (205) 544 - 9402 |___ go browns!! (a 4-line sig can cramp one's art.) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53947">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53947" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i am in need of all of the players wearing #77 in the nhl. i know now of one, ray borque for the bruins. any help would be greatly pierre turgeon, formely of the sabres and now of the isles wears #77 (at least he did in buffalo ...) tom gwitt gwittt@alleg.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53950">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53950" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? has this ever happened before in a hockey game? go pens! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53951">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53951" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ok, buffalo fans. i am a red wings fan, but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins. is there any reason for this? is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine? i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres. two words: grant fuhr. tom gwitt gwittt@alleg.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53952">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53952" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? that was clint malarchuk. that was a very dangerous accident. he could he died right there on the ice. however, he has played since but i don't know where he is now. i think he is still playing but i'm not positive. he was a sabre at the time. i don't know who skated into him though. has this ever happened before in a hockey game? i remember a couple of seasons before the malarchuk incident borje salming of toronto fell down in the crease and someone skated into his face. that took a lot of stiches to fix. go pens! go toronto (they'd better start going soon)! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53955">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53955" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 does anyone have the player stats for games played up until april 22,1993. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53957">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53957" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i don't know if anyone has posted a message like this yet, but i'm getting really sick of espn showing the last minute of a hockey game, in which the score was just tied, and then cutting out and saying "sorry we can't show you this we have to show baseball tonight" (not even a game. a friggin highlight show). gee, sure would have been nice to see the isles/caps in overtime. i live in pittsburgh (yes i'm a pens fan) where hockey gets a lot of coverage. i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in texas must feel. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53961">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53961" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 tom barrasso wore a great mask, one time, last season. he unveiled it at a game in boston. it was all black, with pgh city scenes on it. the "golden triangle" (pgh's downtown area where the 3 rivers meet) graced the top, along with a steel mill on one side and the civic arena (i think) on the other. on the back of the helmet was the old pens' logo (the really fat little penguin with the blue scarf) the current (at the time) pens logo, and a space for the "new" (now current) logo. tommy had designed the mask, and his mother (an artist) painted it for him. but while wearing the mask, the pens got thumped by the bruins. the very next game, tommy was back to the old paint job. a great mask done in by a goalie's superstition. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53965">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53965" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 upi clarinet has just relayed a "scoop" from the toronto sun (or was that star? i like the star myself ...) that iron mike keenan has come to an agreement with the new york rangers for next season. interestingly, this comes the day after the times sports had an editorial about how the rangers need their own pat riley ... who cares about what happens after next season? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53966">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53966" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 jagr has a higher +/-, but francis has had more points. and take it from an informed observer, ronnie francis has had a *much* better season than jaromir jagr. this is not to take anything away from jaro, who had a decent year (although it didn't live up to the expectations of some). bowman tended to overplay francis at times because he is a bowman-style player. he plays hard at all times, doesn't disregard his defensive responsibilities and is a good leader. bowman rewarded him be increasing his ice time. jagr can be very arrogant and juvenile and display a "me first" attitude. this rubbed bowman the wrong way and caused him to lose some ice time. throughout the year, francis consistently recieved more ice time than jagr. althouhg i have never seen stats on this subject, i am pretty sure that jagr had more points per minute played that francis. when you add to that jagr's better +/- rating, i think it becomes evident that jagr had a better season- not that francis had a bad one. actually, what i think has become more evident, is that you are determined to flaunt your ignorance at all cost. jagr did not have a better season than francis ... to suggest otherwise is an insult to those with a modicum of hockey knowledge. save your almost maniacal devotion to the almighty plus/minus ... it is the most misleading hockey stat available. until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its "quality" (i.e., is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game; is he matched up against the other team's top one or two lines; short-handed, etc), i would much rather see the +/- disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications. brad k. gibson internet: gibson@geop.ubc.ca dept. of geophysics & astronomy #129-2219 main mall phone: (604)822-6722 university of british columbia fax: (604)822-6047 vancouver, british columbia, canada v6t 1z4 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53967">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53967" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |> >you'll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that |> >can't play it on account of availability or financial reasons. |> >hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off. |> what?! white, yes. well off, definitely not. hockey season ticket owners have |> the lowest average income of any of the four major north american sports. do you have a basis for this claim? try these stats (taken from playboy magazine june 1989): percentage of pro football fans who have attended college: 39.7 percentage of pro baseball fans who have attended college: 41.5 percentage of pro basketball fans who have attended college: 39.9 percentage of pro hockey fans who have attended college: 54.6 percentage of pro football fans who earn more than $50k: 34.9 percentage of pro baseball fans who make more than $50k: 22.7 percentage of pro basketball fans who make more than $50k: 27.7 percentage of pro hackey fans who make more than $50k: 44.0 |> and think of where the majority of hockey players come from. from a farm out |> in boondock, saskatchewan or weedville, alberta. the biggest advantage that kids from boondock or weedville have is the availability of ice. in the san jose area we have a population of 800,000 and that population is served by 2 ice arenas. in contrast, kamloops, british columbia has a population of about 50,000 and has 5 rinks! there are also myriad ponds, pools, etc that freeze in the winter. down here it's hard to find a kid without a bicycle; up there it's hard to find a kid without a pair of skates. and before you say "what does he know? he's from california." let me say that i was born and raised in trail, british columbia, a town of about 8,000 with lots of ice in the winter. my father did radio play by play for the local team, the trail smokeaters, who by the way, were the last canadian team to win the world championship (back in 1961). i was on skates almost as soon as i could walk, and have been playing recreational hockey for about 35 years. |> >when was the last time you saw a hockey league in the inner city. |> >the insurance alone is a big enough barrier. |> the inner city isn't the only place that is poor. |> i think the biggest barrier to hockey in the inner city is... no ice to play on. lack of ice is a big factor, but costs is a bigger factor. both my kids play for the santa clara valley hockey association and this season, which just ended, cost me $75 per kid for membership in hockey usa, plus $750 per kid for club dues. the hockey usa fees cover excess medical insurance, and the club dues cover ice time, officials, trophies, etc. other areas have similar fees, unless the city government subsidises some of the costs, as stockton does. by the way; most ice arenas are located in what could be called the "inner city" areas. eastridge and vallco are exceptions ... redwood city's rink is in an industrial area on bay rd, near 101, berkeley's is near ashby and martin luther king, stockton's is in oak park, sacramento's is in an older section of downtown (i forget the name of the street), fresno's is out on the edge of town, just west of 99. santa rosa's is a nice rink, but it's in an older section of town. dublin's is outside of town, off 580. most of the rinks are old, and expensive to run, with huge electric bills and insurance premiums. if you want to buy ice time expect to pay around $100 per hour at any of these rinks. some of them give you a 60 minute hour for your money; others give you a 50 minute hour and include the resurfacing time in the fee. alan hepburn "a man doesn't know what he knows national semiconductor until he knows what he doesn't know." santa clara, ca alan@berlioz.nsc.com thomas carlyle 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53969">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53969" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 upi clarinet has just relayed a "scoop" from the toronto sun (or was that star? i like the star myself ...) that iron mike keenan has come to an agreement with the new york rangers for next season. interestingly, this comes the day after the times sports had an editorial about how the rangers need their own pat riley ... who cares about what happens after next season? the rumour was basically everywhere in toronto based on reports that keenan has told both san jose and philadelphia that he was no longer interested in pursuing further negotiations with either team. the ranger announcement is supposed to happen tomorrow supposedly. the rangers have so many veterans that they had to get a coach with "weight" and a proven record...and whom they know messier respects. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53973">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey53973" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 jagr has a higher +/-, but francis has had more points. and take it from an informed observer, ronnie francis has had a *much* better season than jaromir jagr. this is not to take anything away from jaro, who had a decent year (although it didn't live up to the expectations of some). bowman tended to overplay francis at times because he is a bowman-style player. he plays hard at all times, doesn't disregard his defensive responsibilities and is a good leader. bowman rewarded him be increasing his ice time. jagr can be very arrogant and juvenile and display a "me first" attitude. this rubbed bowman the wrong way and caused him to lose some ice time. throughout the year, francis consistently recieved more ice time than jagr. althouhg i have never seen stats on this subject, i am pretty sure that jagr had more points per minute played that francis. when you add to that jagr's better +/- rating, i think it becomes evident that jagr had a better season- not that francis had a bad one. actually, what i think has become more evident, is that you are determined to flaunt your ignorance at all cost. jagr did not have a better season than francis ... to suggest otherwise is an insult to those with a modicum of hockey knowledge. save your almost maniacal devotion to the almighty plus/minus ... it is the most misleading hockey stat available. until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its "quality" (i.e., is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game; is he matched up against the other team's top one or two lines; short-handed, etc), i would much rather see the +/- disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications. thank you for posting this. as the person who first brought up the fact that jagr has a much higher +/- than francis, i can assure you that i brought it up as an example of the absurdity of +/- comparisons, even on the same team. i never, ever thought that anyone would argue that jagr's higher +/- actually reflected better two-way in my opinion, francis's low +/- is purely a result of him being asked to play against opponents top scorers at all times; the fact that he can chip in 100 points while neutralizing the other team's top center is a testament to how valuable he is, even if his +/- suffers. on the other hand, jagr, for how big, fast and skilled he is, can't even get 90 points, no matter how inflated his +/- is. (by the way, don't get me wrong -- i like jagr. he may be a lazy floater, but he turns it on at exactly the right times -- like overtime of playoff games). roland dreier dreier@math.berkeley.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53974">
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 when was the last time a president's trophy winner fell to last place the following year? a long time, i'd bet. well i think it in 1969 the montreal canadians finished 1st (although there was no president's cup in those days) and missed the playoffs in 1970. i do recall that the 1970 playoff picture wasn't decided until the final day, when the ny rangers defeated the redwings. the tie-breaker was the number of goals for (if i remember correctly), so the rangers played with an empty net for the entire game. some hab loyalists accused the wings of 'throwing' the game to keep them out, but as i recall, gordie and delvecchio had the flu, so coach sid abel sat them out, and the rangers swarmed the redwings most of the night. 
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 final 1992-93 american hockey league standings northern division w l t pts gf ga lyf* providence bruins 46 32 2 94 384 348 56 adirondack red wings 36 35 9 81 331 308 84 capital district isles 34 34 12 80 280 285 75 springfield indians 25 41 14 64 282 336 94 new haven senators 22 47 11 55 262 343 -- southern division w l t pts gf ga lyf binghamton rangers 57 13 10 124# 392 246 91 rochester americans 40 33 7 87 348 332 86 utica devils 33 36 11 77 325 354 74 baltimore skipjacks 28 40 12 68 318 353 66 hershey bears 27 41 12 66 316 339 83 hamilton canucks 29 45 6 64 284 327 -- atlantic division w l t pts gf ga lyf st john's maple leafs 41 26 13 95 351 308 90 fredericton canadiens 38 31 11 87 314 278 96 cape breton oilers 36 32 12 84 356 336 82 moncton hawks 31 33 16 78 292 306 74 halifax citadels 33 37 10 76 312 348 67 *- last year's point total #- league record total + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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 if the islanders beat the devils tonight, they would finish with identical records. who's the lucky team that gets to face the penguins in the opening round? also, can somebody list the rules for breaking 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53980">
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 how to beat pittsburgh??? iii.kevin stevens a.fighting 1.call bob probert 2.call tie domi 3.call my grandmother (she'd kick his ass) yeah...i've seen you're grand mother...i bet she could. joseph stiehm 
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 the ranger announcement is supposed to happen tomorrow supposedly. press conference at 1pm ... the rangers have so many veterans that they had to get a coach with "weight" and a proven record...and whom they know messier respects. interestingly, keenan's co-coach (or is it his "number one"?) on team canada at the world championships is roger neilsen. it'd be interesting if the rangers call in the balance of neilsen's contract to be keenan's assistant ... roger did do a very good job with the mediocre players, just as he handled the cinderella canucks of 10 years ago ... but his mistake was playing the rangers like those canucks last may ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53982">
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 last year. the pens' weak spot is defense and goaltending -- if boston boston doesn't have the guns of the pens, but the pens doesn't have the defense, goaltending, and discipline of boston. still, boston can why do you say this? as of now, the pens and bruins have played the same number of games, and given up the same number of goals. they are tied for the third and fourth best defenses in the league, behind chicago first and toronto second. the pens' weak spot is defense? only by comparison to their offense, which is second in the league to detroit. but the pens are no weaker on defense and goaltending than the bruins are; that is, they are both very strong. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53984">
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 : this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio : for espn hockey. [some text deleted] : espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not : broadcast the ot of the hockey game. next year, espn2 will be introduced so : baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey. i hadn't heard about this new espn2. when is this new network supposed to start? sounds great to me! (as long as my cable co. offers it) tom huot huot@cray.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53985">
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 while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? has this ever happened before in a hockey game? it was clint malarchuk's neck cut by uwe krupp's skate. i know it happened in buffalo, but i can't tell you against whom. krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net. malarchuk became the fourth goalie (behind hasek, puppa and draper) after suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder. he's been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley. krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine/turgeon trade. what do i win? =) patrick ferrel - v120qldp@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu "i always said there was state university of new york at buffalo something fundamentally wrong with the universe." <aka> jay walker, wwivnet 1@7659 -- arthur dent 
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 on the other hand, i'm hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made. imagine indeed, but then again we have the benefit of well, the "jettison for youth fast" strategy was his. also in hindsight, it didn't work all that well, but i think it was more because it left the sharks on a tightrope without a net, not that it was inherently flawed. it was the injuries that caused us to fall. let's say that in the view of the sharks' upper management, the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra. from all indications, it wasn't the "major" factor, but the "last straw". there were personality conflicts among shark management, and disagreements over how personnel were going to be handled (not just who was being traded vs. kept, but who was being sent to kc. what ferriera did, if rumors are right, was not always what the folks behind the bench wanted or needed). i'm inclined to take exactly the opposite view: they should have kept him...he's obviously the luckiest man in hockey! i think if they'd kept ferriera, they would have lost some of their other management staff. depending on which sources you trust, we might have lost grillo and lombardi and murdoch over the summer. frankly, i want to keep those three. (we may well ahve also lost kingston, which, of course, is now a moot point). the sharks have been building an organizational staff that is highly consensual and cooperative. ferriera wanted to run things his way. there were conflicts. ferriera lost. that says nothing about his skills or accomplishments -- at that level, a lot is personality and politics. i think he did some good things for the sharks, but that he never fit in as a "shark person". i hope he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams down in anaheim, too, because it'll be good for hockey. (but i want the ducks to be doormats for a couple of years, so the sharks succeeed first). chuq "imho" von rospach, esd support & training (dal/aux) =+= chuq@apple.com member, sfwa =+= editor, otherrealms =+= genie: mac.bigot =+= alink:chuq minor league fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (san jose giants: a/1/9) san francisco giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (the stick?not!) san jose sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (new seat: 127/tbd) 
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 nothing wrong with what felix did. the only problem was that he didn't dino hard enough. next time felix aim for the ankles!!!!!!!!!! go leafs. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53991">
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 -=> quoting bill gregory to all <=- bg> hey i saw that game! i thought the sabres looked better that you bg> described. it's boston that looked weak and unsure of themselves. even bg> if (big if) they (bruins) win the third game what's that going to bg> prove? they be lucky! well now the sabres are up 3 - 0 in games, and its to bad that boston isn't putting up more of a fight as that could have been the best series of the playoffs, i think boston will come out smoking in the next two games and that buffalo will end the series in game six back in buffalo, and say, how about those islanders? they are up 2 - 1 on the capitals and will probably win the series, only to be clobbered by the penguins who should eliminate the devils in the next game. i cannot see (i'm sad to say) anyone beating the penguins this year (again) and they will take cup # 3 i'm afraid. well talk to ya later. ... to find out a girl's faults, praise her to her girl friends. ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53992">
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 harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business,brian sutter. sutter's playoff record as the head coach in st.louis speaks for itself. the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year... grant fuhr has done this to a lot better coaches than brian sutter... 
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 yes, yes, i can see it now >>>> all those sabre fans finally taking their sabre sweaters out of the moth balls and proudly wearing them. after 9 years of playoff frustration and being up 3 games to nil i guess it is a pretty good bet. but there has not been a team that has come back from an 0-3 deficit since 1975 - could this be the year. (don't throw out the moth balls yet) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53996">
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 i feel the jury is still out on tim cheveldae as a playoff goalie. he was average in his first playoffs. last year, he had a horrible start, but played great the last ten games after he was benched. his gaa, even with the horrible start, was 2.5 last year. this year, i think he's going to play very well (he has to if detroit is going to win the cup). he wasn't sharp in game 1, but he didn't have to be. i thought he looked pretty good yesterday. charles hubbert writes... great write up of the wings/toronto series thus far. i agree with just about everything that you said, but chevy shouldn't have let the shot from the right point in. first goal, mikorov, i think. other than that, the wings are looking good, and chevy is holding his own. not great, but maybe chevy has let in 2 or 3 soft goals so far, but they all didn't matter. however, his recent history has been inconsistant play but comes up big when it counts. the score was 4-0 i think when the goal you mentioned was scored. in the third period when it looked like toronto was coming back, chevy was exceptional. i can see him as a barraso style playoff goalie: inconsistant when there's nothing on the line, but comes up big when really needed. i guess we'll both find out. "and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about. i'm getting bored reading the same problems in the paper, decade after decade. i want people to have to deal with new problems." ... president bill clinton 2-4-93 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey53997">
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 in article 27867 of rec.sport.hockey sclark@epas.utoronto.ca (susan clark) asks: hi guys.... i'm looking to answe a bit of trivia. what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv (i.e., letterman, carson/leno, arsenio, etc.....i.e. shows of a national nature--include canadian equivalents if you can think of any)? this can include nhl, olympic, and world champion- ship players. i'm pretty sure i've seen gretzky and lemieux, but i was wondering if there were any others..... i am not so sure about the celebrated players of the game, but tod hartje, who played for harvard in college and then went on to play in the ahl (initially for moncton and currently for providence-- thanks to daryl turner for the update!) appeared on david letterman's show about two years ago now. tod has the distinction of being the first american born player to go and play in the former soviet union. this was arranged by jets gm mike smith while tod was playing in moncton at about the time all those european players were coming over to north america to play in the nhl. tod spent a year playing in russia and played with or against some of the russian players who have just entered the nhl in the last two years. he wrote a book on his experiences called "behind the red line" (check it out!) and appeared on the letterman show to talk about them. -- mike note: i hope i have my facts straight. it has been a year since i read tod's book. i wanted to dig the book out to double check, but realized i lent it to a friend, and he hasn't returned the book yet! (just wait 'til i get a hold of him...) 
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 did anyone see the montreal - quebec game yesterday? it was tight right down to the last second of the third period. in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods. ok, so montreal won! they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick. their second goal in overtime was also replayed, but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in. the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick. anyways, montreal is back into the series. the overhead replay pretty clearly showed that it was the quebec defender who deflected the puck. the re-play officials did not take nearly as much time to make this call as they did for the first non-goal, so it seemed pretty non-controversial. i agree that it was a great game; good to see roy and damphousse back into form. hopefully the sign of good things to come... paul valin tel: + 1 613 763 7394 bell-northern research ltd. email: pavalin@bnr.ca p.o. box 3511, station c ottawa, ontario, canada k1y 4h7 'only my opinions...' 
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 nhl playoff results for 4/22/93. conference semi-finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf (leads 3-0) stl (leads 2-0) win pit (leads 3-0) bos chi van (leads 2-0) nyi (leads 2-1) mon tor la (tied 1-1) was que (leads 2-1) det (leads 2-0) cal quebec nordiques (leads series 2-1) 1 0 0 0 - 1 montreal canadiens 0 1 0 1 - 2 1st period: que, sundin 1 - (gusarov) 1:17 2nd period: mon, muller 1 - (damphousse, bellows) (pp) 1:30 3rd period: none 1 overtime: mon, damphousse 1 - (bellows, desjardins) (pp) 10:30 powerplay opportunities-nordiques 0 of 4 canadiens 2 of 6 shots on goal- nordiques 12 4 14 5 - 35 canadiens 11 14 13 12 - 50 quebec nordiques--hextall (2-1) (50 shots - 48 saves) montreal canadiens--roy (1-2) (35 shots - 34 saves) att-17,679 pittsburgh penguins (leads series 3-0) 1 0 3 - 4 new jersey devils 1 1 1 - 3 1st period: njd, guerin 1 - 1:03 pit, mceachern 3 - (straka) 9:36 2nd period: njd, holik 1 - (s.stevens) 16:32 3rd period: pit, m.lemieux 4 - (murphy, ramsey) 1:07 pit, taglianetti 1 - (loney, tippett) 7:05 pit, murphy 1 - (francis, tocchet) (pp) 9:31 njd, semak 1 - (zelepukin) 9:44 powerplay opportunities-penguins 1 of 4 devils 0 of 5 shots on goal- penguins 7 16 12 - 35 devils 16 11 5 - 32 pittsburgh penguins--barrasso (3-0) (32 shots - 29 saves) new jersey devils--billington (0-1) (35 shots - 31 saves) att-14,974 boston bruins 1 0 2 0 - 3 buffalo sabres (leads series 3-0) 2 0 1 1 - 4 1st period: buf, mogilny 4 - (lafontaine, hawerchuk) (pp) 1:33 buf, khmylev 1 - (smehlik, hannan) 4:42 bos, bourque 1 - (oates, donato) (pp) 17;33 2nd period: none 3rd period: bos, smolinski 1 - (oates) 13:28 buf, b.sweeney 2 - (khmylev, carney) 14:56 bos, neely 3 - (oates, shaw) 15:57 1 overtime: buf, khmylev 2 - (hawerchuk, lafontaine) (pp) 1:05 powerplay opportunities-bruins 1 of 5 sabres 2 of 7 shots on goal- bruins 11 8 15 0 - 34 sabres 12 11 8 3 - 34 boston bruins--blue (0-1) (34 shots - 30 saves) buffalo sabres--fuhr (3-0) (34 shots - 31 saves) att-16,325 washington capitals 1 1 1 0 - 3 new york islanders (leads series 2-1) 1 0 2 1 - 4 1st period: nyi, thomas 1 - 16:37 was, burridge 1 - (may, cavallini) 18:58 2nd period: was, carpenter 1 - (ridley, bondra) 6:18 3rd period: was, elynuik 1 - (carpenter, ridley) 6:15 nyi, thomas 2 - (turgeon, king) 11:11 nyi, turgeon 3 - (thomas, hogue) 19:17 1 overtime: nyi, ferraro 3 - (hogue, flatley) 4:46 powerplay opportunities-capitals 0 of 2 islanders 0 of 4 shots on goal- capitals 10 8 6 1 - 25 islanders 10 6 8 6 - 30 washington capitals--tabaracci (1-2) (25 shots - 21 saves) new york islanders--healy (2-1) (30 shots - 27 saves) att-14,180 -spike- 
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 dino getting shots in front of the net, he should expect it. this is playoff hockey where anything goes. you lose one game in the regular season, and it's not so bad. you lose a game in the playoffs and it's a difficult thing to overcome. i've watched hockey (and played it too) for a number of years and i haven't seen one post-season game where the forward in front of the net has not finished without any bruises on the back of his leg. the leafs are not doing a good job in clearing the net and potvin has been forced to take matters into his own hands. i remember when cicarelli used to play for the london knights (ohl), he always was a nuisance in front of the net and the goalies took exception to this. he also complained (in this morning's paper) about what happened last night, but to me, it's a lot of bellyaching. his team is up 2-0 and he complains about being whacked...i wonder what would happen if he tried to do the same thing in front of billy smith or a younger ron hextall? seems dino would need two artifical legs. dino should take it as part of the game and thank his lucky stars that he's in the playoffs and has a good chance to go the finals. well, i agree that if you're going to stand in front of the net, that you should expect to get hit and hacked at. in general, you should expect to finish the game with some bruises. however, there is a fine line between hacking at a guy (causing some pain and discomfort) and blatantly attempting to injure another player. felix potvin, imo, crossed that line on wednesday. that two hander on ciccarelli was way out of line. i lost a lot of respect for potvin because of that. it showed an immaturity. he did not slash at ciccarelli to simply try to remove him from the slot area (a legal position for dino to be in). instead, he slashed in an attempt to injure. it was out of shear frustration. as a leaf supporter (just a supporter, i'm not a leaf fan really), i was very disappointed. you're right in mentioning billy smith and ron hextall (at least in his philly days). they both crossed that same line at times and for that reason, many fans (and players) disliked them (that's why their names always comes up as examples when we talk about these issues). let's hope that felix doesn't do that again. i'd hate to see anyone (even dino --- although i admit i don't like him very much) get seriously hurt from such careless (but intentional) use of the stick. 
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 while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? has this ever happened before in a hockey game? it was clint malarchuk's neck cut by uwe krupp's skate. i know it happened in buffalo, but i can't tell you against whom. krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net. it was not krupp's skate. krupp was defending against steve tuttle, of the blues. they both sort of tripped and fell toward malarchuk, and tuttle's skate came perilously close to cutting (but actually just missed) the jugular. malarchuk immediately fell to the ice, hands at his neck, blood on the ice. malarchuk became the fourth goalie (behind hasek, puppa and draper) after suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder. he's been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley. he'd been suffering from it for over a decade. he just wasn't diagnosed for it until he didn't sleep for ten days and decided to have some alcohol to help him sleep. unfortunately, he'd just been put on ulcer medicine a few days earlier. it's amazing he lasted as long as he did. ocd sufferers stop distinguishing the line between reality and imagination, or fail to accept that something they've checked is ok now. for example, an ocd sufferrer can wash his hands over and over and still think they're dirty. he might check the oven ten times to be sure it's turned off. he might see a movie about something and automatically assume the situation is the same for his own life. malarchuk has dramatically decreased the medicine he takes, but still needs it. he went off it this past winter and had a bad ocd episode and i think was in the hospital for a couple days. (he felt it slowed his reflexes, so he tried to go without). in any event, he is alive and well and living in san diego, while playing with the gulls (ihl). krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine/turgeon trade. and tuttle is no longer with the blues, but i don't know where he is. possibly in the ihl, but you'd best ask a blues fan. valerie hammerl john sr. would lift pat over the boards, grab hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu his hand, and start running around the outside, v085pwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu faster and faster. "i wanted to learn how to get that feeling, and the only way was to learn how to skate." p. lafontaine 
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 here's one from the mill. the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal. given what labour relations and puck has been like, it would be a sigh of relief. this way w4e can can both elements!! dave shariff yadallee (b. sc.(econ/math) (u of alberta 1990) ) ( yadalle@amisk.cs.ualberta.ca) god save the queen, god bless us all!remember! jesus saves lives from eternal damnation! newfoundland, keep good old clyde, vote liberal! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54005">
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 |> while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that |> barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his |> jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. |> does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what |> about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? has this ever |> happened before in a hockey game? |> thanks, |> carol |> go pens! that would be clint malarchuck. it was speculated at the time, that the injury was so serious that had he been playing at the other end of the rink at the time (he was playing in the same end as the ambulence is parked), he never would have survived. ditto, if he were playing anything other than a league with an ambulance on if you've seen video tape of the incident, it is amazing how much blood there was. it was literally spurting out all over the ice, as clint grabbed his neck and watched the puddle in horror. amazingly enough, he made a full recovery, and played again in the nhl. he was getting on in years at the time of the incident anyway, and didn't play for too long afterward. some people speculated that he just couldn't get himself back together after the incident, and i think he had a bunch of other personal problems dogging him afterward. he did eventually get back to form, and played another year or so after that, and then i believe he retired. anyone else? carol boudreau #44 a.k.a. the x-terminator boudreau@athena.mit.edu go flames! rock the kings! 
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 lots of debate about the virtues of bryan murray vs pat quinn as a gm deleted. randy graca seems to think murray is the best gm in the league. i think quinn is one of several who are better. plus his team (quinn's) has improved a much greater amount than detroit since he took over with them. how do you figure? both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year: they both won their division, they had close to the same number of points, they both went down 3-1 in the first round of the playoffs before finally escaping in 7 games, and they both got knocked out in the second round by teams they should have been able to beat, with less talent. (specifically, if i remember correctly, third place teams). how does this make vancouver more improved? further, if i'm not mistaken, the wings had more points than vancouver at the end of this season (albeit not many). when quinn took over vancouver- several years ago, not last year, they regularily missed the playoffs. i can't recall if they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did. quinn has improved the team from non-playoff calibre to a serious contender. when murray took over in detroit, the were about a .500 team that was a contender to win the norris division and possibly even a stanley cup so quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over as a gm. quinn is one example of a better gm than murray. 
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<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54009" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 during the first three games of the pens-devils series, i have been impressed time and time again by the pure talent of the pens. jagr, maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun to watch. but, one element of this team which goes unnoticed seems to be scotty bowman. bowman is in the hockey hall of fame as a coach already...and unlike gil stein...he didn't get their by stacking the board of directors! -) while no one can replace the genius and optimism of badger bob johnson, bowman, in his own way, has made himself a permanent, though not clearly seen, mark in pittsburgh. bowman is the genius...johnson isn't. bowman is a great coach...johnson, a very good one. however, bowman is really not a modern coach, and patrick's solution of having him only run the team on game days, and delegate most of the day-to-day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick's part. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54011">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54011" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 joseph, shut-out the hawks 2-0. the blues are playing like they did in '86 - clutch 'n grab, shoot the puck out. it's incredibly boring to watch, but if it works... road. i agree, it's very boring if you're not a blues fan, but the blues played two perfect road games. not boring is right!!! it is more likely to cause me to have a stroke!! i had to listen to game two on the blackhawk station and i don't think i could take another call of "and joseph makes a spectacular saaaaaave". now i'm a blues fan, but i don't want them to play "like" they played in game two. sure the result was fine, but the blues match up very well with the hawks so they really don't need to treat them like the 86 flames. we don't need a "monday night miracle" to have a chance to beat chicago. the blues can do it on talent. at least over the hawks. rich h.--- go blues!! * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54015">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54015" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 here's one from the mill. the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal. the probability is that the oilers are not going anywhere. pocklington has chosen this moment to make his "last" stand is because he is at the moment of maximum advantage...the provincial government is months away from a provincial election...it is the moment when he has maximum power to convince northlands to give him a better arena deal or a better purchase price... and it is before the nhl's new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue-sharing. pocklington is many things...stupid is not one of them. he can dictate terms...because other cities will pay his price if edmonton doesn't. edmonton has already fucked up its international airport, and surrendered supremacy to calgary, and over the next few years edmonton is going to take a hard hit from government cutbacks. it will screw itself beyond recogniton if it manages to find a way to lose its hockey team too...because northlands wants to continue to use the oilers to subsidize horse racing. however, in this case, about the long-term financial viability of the oilers, the fact is that pocklington is basically right, regardless of who owns the team, and it is right to provoke the crisis now, before the team accumulates millions of dollars in losses, or becomes habitually uncompetitive because of lack of money. sather has done his job...the oilers are poised to be competitive again very soon (al strachan, one of the most knowledgeble hockey writers in canada in a post-mortem of the oilers season in the globe and mail recently agrees with me.) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54017">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54017" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 if espn pisses you off, call them - they do respond to calls. last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn't see the sudden-death overtime for the buffalo game. apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away. their phone number is 203-585-2000 susan dart 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54023">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54023" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 the tv coverage of the playoffs is fucking ridicules. overtime time games that are not shown? what the hell kind of shit is this? if that would have happened to the flyers(if they were in the damn playoffs to begin with) while i was watching, i would have gone throught the roof! however, everybody is getting pissed off at espn, but they are not the ones to blame. they have prior contracts that they just can't simply break whenever they want to. the n.h.l. is to blame. when they signed the deal with espn, they had to know of this. they had to know shit like this would happen since they wouldn't have complete priority. the n.h.l. should be feeling the heat that is being thrown at espn. how can the n.h.l. do this to its fans? how dare they. we are the ones that make the damn league exist and they can't even televise complete playoff games for us to watch! they more i write about this, the more pissed off i get. we must let the n.h.l. know that we expect a little better than this. if anybody out there knows how to go about doing this, let me and everybody else know. well i had to get that off my chest and while i'm at it.... mario is the michael jordan of hockey. all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least 2. last night in the 3rd game between nj and pitt, he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off. the guy on him was doing a good job, so he got off a weak shot, but then he decided to fall to the ice. then the fucking ref(van helloamend?) called the guy for holding. they replayed the play, and my roomate(who is clueless about hockey) wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call, because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick, and no, he did not trip him. it is simple, mario gets touched, he falls to the ice, automatic 2. but the thing that really pissed me off is, pitt scored the 3rd or 4th goal, i don't remember, on the resulting pp and eventually won 4-3. his diving/calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game. they gotta stop the damn holding and interference that is so fucking obvious. that is not hockey. it allows inferior players to bring down the level of the better players, and allows inferior teams to beat better ones. this has pissed me off for many years now, and it has improved somewhat. however, during the playoffs and 3rd periods, the damn refs must misplace their balls, because they sure don't make any calls that show that they got all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54024">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54024" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 there are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the fans. i feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages. i think a compromise would work; namely honouring personages in conference names, and using geographical references in the divisional names. although i still do not think the move will draw fans to the game; imo it's a cosmetic change that bettman and the owners _hope_ will have an effect. and it doesn't say much for the mentality of anybody it works on, either. another thing that bothers me is the points system. percentages, as used in the other major sports are clearly more informative. when i look at the nhl standings the first thing i have to do is make a quick calculation to account for games in hand (which is almost always the case). some will object to percentages, claiming perhaps, that it is an "americanization" of the sport surprise, i agree totally. the points system is fine, if everybody at all times has played the same number of games. since this is almost never the case, winning percentage is the way to go. i don't particularly care if it is an "american" thing either, if it works. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54026">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54026" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 here's one from the mill. the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal. given what labour relations and puck has been like, it would be a sigh of relief. i heard yesterday that pocklington was talking with folks at copps that afternoon (yesterday). valerie hammerl john sr. would lift pat over the boards, grab hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu his hand, and start running around the outside, v085pwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu faster and faster. "i wanted to learn how to get that feeling, and the only way was to learn how to skate." p. lafontaine 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54030">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54030" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 if espn pisses you off, call them - they do respond to calls. last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn't see the sudden-death overtime for the buffalo game. apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away. their phone number is 203-585-2000 susan dart well i think whenever espn covers the game they do a wonderful job. but what i don't understand is that they cut the ot just show some stupid baseball news which is not important at all. then i waited for the scores to comeon sportscenter, but they talk about baseball, basketball and football. then they showed penguine highlight and went back to stupid basketball. finally they showed a highlight of the ot goal but that was like 30 sec. i think they should give more attention to nhl during the playoffs then talking about boring basketball games.. i guess it is nhl's fault too for leaving espn. hope things improve by next season... ** ___ ____ ____ ____ ____ ** ** 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54033">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54033" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 [...] and i'll give fuhr's new one an honourable mention, although i haven't seen it closely yet (it looked good from a distance!). this is the new buffalo one, the second since he's been with the sabres? i recall a price tag of over $700 just for the paint job on that mask, and a total price of almost $1500. ouch. yeah, it's the second one. and i believe that price too. i've been trying to get a good look at it on the bruin-sabre telecasts, and wow! does it ever look good. whoever did that paint job knew what they were doing. and given fuhr's play since he got it, i bet the bruins are wishing he didn't have it:) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54038">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54038" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 and tuttle is no longer with the blues, but i don't know where he is. possibly in the ihl, but you'd best ask a blues fan. steve tuttle was traded from the blues to tb in the before the start of this season along with pat jablonski, for future considerations. he played for milwaukee of the ihl, then got traded from tb to que along with michel mongeau. he's currently playing with halifax of the ahl. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54039">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54039" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 that more or less says it. i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross-check valeri in the face. i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach's corner. bill clare, eastman kodak company internet: clare@bissun.kodak.com m/c 35416 -- 901 elmgrove road phone: (716) 726-9419 rochester, new york 14653-5416 any opinions expressed herein belong to me and not to my employer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54040">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54040" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year. i had the rangers on msg, and the two different games on scny and sca on at the same time. yes, i'd rather have sc cover it, just for the amount of coverage. so this year you had a game on scny, a game on sca, a game on espn, and if the rangers hadn't crashed and burned, you would have had a game on msg. what are you complaining about? i seem to recall last year everyone complaining about sc coverage. i even remember orioles' games being shown in the dc area instead of hockey. and what about when sc failed to show the conclusion of other games because its feature game was over? sound familiar? this year i'm getting twice the coverage. i can see all the caps games *plus* the games espn shows. i think it's great that hockey is back on espn. imho, they're doing a great job especially considering the baseball contract they have to work around. peter kester pkester@mitre.org 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54041">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54041" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 felix potvin deserves to have the sh&$ kicked out of him. if there is anyone that he should be hitting with his stick, its his pussy defensemen who can't seem to move big dino ciccerelli (5'10" 180 lbs) out from in front of the net. obviously toronto has realized that they are overmatched by the wings and must rely on trying to antagonize the superior red wings with cheap shots. i prefer to watch hockey than seeing shots of felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing in front of the net. he has every right to stand in front of the net, just not in the crease! yes, he does. but, the goalie sure as hell doesn't want him there! when i played roller hockey (boy do i miss those days) as a goalie, i would scream at my defense to clear guys out of the slot. i don't care if he's in the crease or not, get him the hell away from me so i can see the ball! (yes, roller hockey, remember) and if there was nobody around to clear the slot, then i'd do it myself by pushing the offending player--*hard*. i *hate* people in my way when i'm the goalie, and i am sure felix does too. i should say that i didn't see the incident, so if potvin really swung the stick big time, then that's not right, but he can move people out of the way. he's a player on the ice too, you know. :-) keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! in this corner let's go quakers!!!!! weighing in at almost every weight imaginable . . . life, and all that surrounds it. -- blues traveler, 1993 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54044">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54044" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 : bowman is the genius...johnson isn't. bowman is a great coach...johnson, : a very good one. however, bowman is really not a modern coach, and : patrick's solution of having him only run the team on game days, and : delegate most of the day-to-day responsibity to the assistants is : a shrewd managerial decision on patrick's part. imho bowman is the perfect coach for this group of players at this time. johnson was the perfect coach two years ago for his group of players. i would say we have been very lucky here in pittsburgh that the order these coaches came in was this one. (excluding the unfortunate circumstances which brought about the change.) with the immense talent on the penguins roster this year, a tougher bowman keeps the egos in check. johnson on the other hand, was able to inspire the younger, inexperienced players to new heights. both coaches have / had different strengths. both of which came at exactly the right time. another person also mentioned that bowman is the perfect coach for this time since nobody can argue with his decisions. how can you argue with the coach with the best record in hockey anyway? playing for a great coach like that demands respect which also keeps the egos in check. just a couple of ideas. tom huot huot@cray.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54045">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54045" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 could someone tell me if and where i could find faceoff stats for the 91/92 season and later on the 92/93 (i think its to early to get it now). thanks a lot 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54047">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54047" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 now here this: anyone voting for john blue for best goalie mask poll will be shot on site, no questions asked ;-) but c'mon.. it's a black mask, with yellow paint along the opening.. how totally plain vanilla! eeuu.. heh, someone mentioned tommy soderstrom (flyers) for the besk mask poll too (in the mentioned below part). all he has is a plain white helmet with a big cage. i found this pretty amusing. -john santore philadelphia flyers in '93-'94! / \ "we break the surface tension \_________ ____ \ with our wild kinetic dreams" / / \ \ -rush, grand designs \_______ / (*) ) ) / / /\___/ / go philadelphia flyers! \_____ / / / / / \_______/ john santore (jsbh@andrew.cmu.edu) \________/ rush-yes-king crimson-emerson, lake and palmer-marillion-genesis (w/ gabriel) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54048">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54048" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 hey man! - having spent the past season learning to skate and having played a couple of sessions of mock hockey, i'm ready to invest in hockey equipment (particularly since i will be taking summer 'hockey lessons'). however, i am completely and profoundly ignorant when it comes to hockey equipment. i've checked out local stores and looked at catalogs, but i was hoping to solicit opinions/suggestions before actually plunking down any money. having played football in high school and college i at least have that equipment as a basis for comparison. but for example what are the advantages/disadvantages to different kinds of shoulder pads and pants/girdles? are there any notoriously bad or unsafe brands or styles? etc. so any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. tom menner i when you're swimming in the creek software engineering institute i and an eel bites your cheek, carnegie mellon university i that's a moray! pittsburgh, pa i - fabulous furry freak bros. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54049">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54049" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year. yes, i'd rather have sc cover it, just for the amount of coverage. so this year you had a game on scny, a game on sca, a game on espn, and if the rangers hadn't crashed and burned, you would have had a game on msg. what are you complaining about? the problem is that (by no fault of espn) ongoing games are not covered 'til the final horn sounds. with two channels, scny and sca, late-finishing games (up to pacific time) and overtimes elsewhere will kick in at the end of local coverage. if scny is blocked by the mets, there is still some hockey on sca (scny plus). with an espn 2, the current situation would be alleviated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54055">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54055" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 according to the hockey gurus over at espn, should the islanders win tonite the two teams will have the same record, but the devils will be playing the penguins. this is because the islanders have won the season series against the devils. i think the rules for deciding a tie breaker include: 1. season series 2. goals against 3. goals for in this order (correct me if i'm wrong). anyone have anything to add? go islanders! 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54060">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54060" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 i'm looking to answer a bit of trivia. what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv [...examples deleted...] i'm pretty sure i've seen gretzky and lemieux, but i was wondering if there were any others... michael j. fox was on letterman about a year ago (or two) during the playoffs as a celebrity hockey player for the bruins. while he's not exactly a nhler he did mention that the bruins wanted to break ulfie's legs (or something like that) in response to the neely incident. it was quite amusing, as one of the few letterman viewers who actually knew what he was talking about. anybody know who the pens celebrity hockey player is? michael douglas (aka michael keaton)? joseph stiehm 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54061">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54061" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 what sadist brought up this vein about malarchuk? when i saw what happened i wanted to throw up, and at the same time i was devastated, since i thought that malarchuk wouldn't survive. btw, i believe he picked up an alcohol problem after (before?) the incident. to radically change the subject, the caps must be having nightmares about the isles in overtime in the playoffs. have they *ever* beaten the islanders in a playoff ot game? this is lunacy. the caps are such a sorry team in the playoffs, they consistently choke against opponents who they should be beating. losing two ot games in a row is not coincidence, it's evidence of the choke factor. keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! in this corner let's go quakers!!!!! weighing in at almost every weight imaginable . . . life, and all that surrounds it. -- blues traveler, 1993 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54063">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54063" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 mario is the michael jordan of hockey. all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least 2. last night in the 3rd game between nj and pitt, he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off. the guy on him was doing a good job, so he got off a weak shot, but then he decided to fall to the ice. then the fucking ref(van helloamend?) called the guy for holding. they replayed the play, and my roomate(who is clueless about hockey) wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call, because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick, and no, he did not trip him. it is simple, mario gets touched, he falls to the ice, automatic 2. but the thing that really pissed me off is, pitt scored the 3rd or 4th goal, i don't remember, on the resulting pp and eventually won 4-3. his diving/calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game. all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed. we must have been watching two different games. the devil had one hand on mario's elbow and pulling the elbow caused mario to fall so the call was using clueless people to substantiate your claims doesn't give me a lot of confidence in your call either. next time consider getting a second opinion from a clueful observer. or maybe all those available disagreed. joseph stiehm 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54066">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54066" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 one thing you can be assured of, however, is this: the leafs are the best of all the teams in the league that have allowed 12 goals in 2 cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." roger, you should check your facts before posting! the kings have conceded 12 goals in 2 games. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54067">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54067" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf's head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey. how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it, with your back-assward mentality? saying that hurting a player will solve anyone's problems is asinine. new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted. right now, too many of the real goons get away with too much, because the ref is watching the play (or supposed to be:i've seen koharski and van hellemond, to name a few, with their heads up their asses on a few calls) rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play. even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties, it would be an unfortunately, that is the way the league is heading... you can't fight, so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when the ref isn't looking. ulf has brought this to a high level... players stuck in the past (like neely) who prefer fights to cheap shots are at a disadvantage in the new system. lets face it, a cheap shot (like high sticking) is a very effective method... it is easier to hide from the refs, has a better chance of causing injury, and you can draw people into fights that way. i don't like it, but that's the way the league is going. by the way, there was a rather good hit by ulf in the last penguin-devil game. managed to hit the nj player in the face with a stick. (must have been a legal hit... after all, ulf is a clean player and is allowed to do things like that.) 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54069">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54069" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 ny islanders 1 1 2 0 1--5 washington 0 2 2 0 0--4 first period 1, ny islanders, turgeon 1 (king, thomas) 13:14. second period 2, washington, hunter 3 (johansson, miller) 6:33. 3, ny islanders, turgeon 2 (thomas, vaske) 12:36. 4, washington, hunter 4 (johansson, carpenter) pp, 16:51. third period 5, ny islanders, hogue 1 (unassisted) 3:31. 6, washington, khristich 2 (cavallini, bondra) 7:16. 7, ny islanders, ferraro 2 (flatley, hogue) 14:50. 8, washington, hunter 5 (johansson, khristich) pp, 19:57. first overtime no scoring. second overtime 9, ny islanders, mullen 1 (ferraro, flatley) 14:50. ny islanders: 5 power play: 5-0 scorer g a pts ferraro 1 1 2 flatley 0 2 2 hogue 1 1 2 king 0 1 1 mullen 1 0 1 thomas 0 2 2 turgeon 2 0 2 vaske 0 1 1 washington: 4 power play: 5-2 scorer g a pts bondra 0 1 1 carpenter 0 1 1 cavallini 0 1 1 hunter 3 0 3 johansson 0 3 3 khristich 1 1 2 miller 0 1 1 montreal 0 0 1--1 quebec 3 0 1--4 first period 1, quebec, leschyshyn 1 (kamensky, sakic) pp, 4:19. 2, quebec, young 2 (lapointe) 11:41. 3, quebec, young 3 (lapointe, duchesne) 13:56. second period no scoring. third period 4, montreal, bellows 2 (odelein) 11:05. 5, quebec, lapointe 1 (ricci) en, 19:23. quebec: 4 power play: 2-1 special goals: pp: 1 en: 1 total: 2 scorer g a pts duchesne 0 1 1 kamensky 0 1 1 lapointe 1 2 3 leschyshyn 1 0 1 ricci 0 1 1 sakic 0 1 1 young 2 0 2 montreal: 1 power play: 1-0 scorer g a pts bellows 1 0 1 odelein 0 1 1 new jersey 0 0 0--0 pittsburgh 2 4 1--7 first period 1, pittsburgh, mceachern 1 (francis, taglianetti) 15:09. 2, pittsburgh, lemieux 3 (samuelsson, barrasso) sh, 17:41. second period 3, pittsburgh, tocchet 2 (stevens, samuelsson) 3:48. 4, pittsburgh, jagr 2 (francis, ramsey) 12:39. 5, pittsburgh, stevens 1 (francis, murphy) pp, 15:43. 6, pittsburgh, mceachern 2 (daniels, mullen) 16:56. third period 7, pittsburgh, mullen 1 (francis, barrasso) 17:42. pittsburgh: 7 power play: 4-1 special goals: pp: 1 sh: 1 total: 2 scorer g a pts barrasso 0 2 2 daniels 0 1 1 francis 0 4 4 jagr 1 0 1 lemieux 1 0 1 mceachern 2 0 2 mullen 1 1 2 murphy 0 1 1 ramsey 0 1 1 samuelsson 0 2 2 stevens 1 1 2 taglianetti 0 1 1 tocchet 1 0 1 new jersey: 0 power play: 5-0 no scoring buffalo 2 1 1--4 boston 0 0 0--0 first period 1, buffalo, presley 1 (unassisted) sh, 4:27. 2, buffalo, wood 1 (moller, sweeney) pp, 8:07. second period 3, buffalo, mogilny 3 (lafontaine) 5:03. third period 4, buffalo, hawerchuk 1 (carney, smehlik) pp, 14:48. buffalo: 4 power play: 4-2 special goals: pp: 2 sh: 1 total: 3 scorer g a pts carney 0 1 1 hawerchuk 1 0 1 lafontaine 0 1 1 mogilny 1 0 1 moller 0 1 1 presley 1 0 1 smehlik 0 1 1 sweeney 0 1 1 wood 1 0 1 boston: 0 power play: 5-0 no scoring 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54070">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54070" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 1993 world championships in germany: is there any games being shown here in the us from the wc??? 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54071">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54071" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 clement, although he has a pleasant personality (aggravatingly pleasant in my opinion), is a terrible analyst, because he is almost alway wrong...the prototypical example being new jersey's first goal last sunday. i grew up with dick irvin doing color beside danny gallivan...i knew did irvin, dick irvin was a friend of mine...bill clement you aren't any dick irvin. as long as the teams involved do not include the us national team or the new york rangers, i'd take john davidson over bill clement any personality means something to me. that is exactly why i like clement (and emrick). on the other hand, jd is a pompous, bull-headed, arrogant know-it-all. he's a real turn-off (which is exactly what i do when he's on). one complaint i do have about clement is that he sometimes talks too much. if i wanted that i'd listen to tim mcgarver doing a baseball 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54072">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54072" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 ok, here is my try: the czech republic goaltenders: 1. petr briza (finland somewhere, right?) lukko, finland (look at the colors of his mask) defense: 3. leo gudas ? ex-jypht, finland, now in germany excellent defenseman 5. drahomir kadlec ? hifk, finland 14. jiri kucera ? tappara, finland 19. tomas kapusta ? hpk, finland 20. otakar janecky (finland?) jokerit, finland 24. radek toupal ? hpk, finland 26. jiri dolezal ? jypht, finland, no new contract jypht owns his player rights all of these czechs (kadlec, dolezal not anymore) are very good hockey players. it is a big surprise that hlinka selected dolezal. "dole" had a bad season in jypht and that's why they didn't make a new contract. the other czech we had, jiri jonak, got fired also. there are lots of czechs playing in finland. darius rusnak, igor liba, sejba, svoboda, ... 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54076">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54076" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 you know, i never really appreciated them before! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54077">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54077" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 jesus christ!!! the score is now 6-0. the pens are beating the shit out of the devils who gave up in the middle of the 2nd period. espn does something smart. the announcer states "well folks this game is getting out of hand. lets go to the islander/capitals game." i celebrate as i was actually making progress in my cs homework because i was so bored by the scheduled game. i tear down and throw on my jersey, hunter scores i go ape shit 'cause this is the first caps game i've been able to watch all season. and what does espn do? they go back to the blowout that nj hasn't a chance in hell of winning! the period ends and the sportscaster (capitols just tied it up!! yes!! oops excuse me =) goes into his penguin worship mode (dont freak pens fans! they are worthy of this! i'm so glad we wont have to play them as much next year!) and here comes the 3rd period...what? its the blowout again. oh they were just waiting for the cap/isles to get out of intermission. good they've put a close game back on. wait! whats this shit?!! they're showing the blowout again! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg! (oh guess what the score is now 7-0 penguins! switch games you $%&*#@!!!) holy shit they're changing games! its about goddamned time!! lets see if they'll stay. i think this proves by $#%&* point. the caps game goes into overtime but "due to contractual obligations" they have to switch to the fucking baseball. (sorry for my language but im pissed!) what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime? espn get your head out of your now i know there are a lot first of all i think when espn covers the game they do a wonderful job, but last night i felt the same way. i really hate watching devils/pens game. everyone knows that devils are going to get their ass kicked, why even bother showing them. i was so bored and these espn people don't seem to have any brain. after the sundays and last night games, they are still going to show devils/pens on thu and sun. what the hell are they thinking about? i think if they keep it up like this nhl will never get a major network contract. i'd rather see caps/isls game which is more exciting. now i just hope all baseball games are rained out on espn so atleast we can get diffrent hockey games. ** ___ ____ ____ ____ ____ ** ** ** / / / /___/ /___/ /___/ ** experience is what makes a person ** ** /___ /___/ /___/ / \_ / / ** make new mistakes instead of old ** ** ** one. ** ** e-mail: cobra@chopin.udel.edu ** ** 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54078">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54078" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 |> i am in need of all of the players wearing #77 in the nhl. i know now only |> of one, ray borque for the bruins. any help would be greatly appreciated. |> thanx. |> ------------------------the logistician reigns supreme!!!---------------------- |> | go blue!!! go tigers!!! go pistons!!! go lions!!! go red wings!!! | |> -------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu------------------------------- pierre turgeon of the islanders 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54080">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54080" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn't know anything about him, i don't know whether it is just this area (pittsburgh) of the usa that is "deprived" of his broadcasts or whether he's a canadian thing altogether. seriously, what is he all about? i know he was a coach at one time, and from the volume of posts about him, someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow, but my question is, what is the deal with him? secondly, are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait, or do people actually take him seriously? i gotta tell you, from what i see, he really sounds like an ass. let me know - maybe i'm missing something. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54082">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54082" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 [various justifiable rantings on espn coverage by several deleted] the only way to change espn's thinking, if it is even possible, is to complain to them directly. anyone know there telephone # in bristol, ct? i do find it hard to believe that espn doesn't think viewers will simply change the channel from a boring game....i know i did. and then, when they didn't show the nyi-wash overtime(s), i was livid! if i wanted to watch baseball, i could have turned on the phillies-padres extra inning game....instead, i went to bed angry......i boycotted espn's morning sportscenter today, i was still so incensed. my wife says i shouldn't go to bed angry, but last nite.........grrrrrrr! tim mavor | "i am known by many names....... college of marine studies | some call me.........tim." univ. of delaware | newark, de 19716 | "you know much that is hidden, o' tim!" tmavor@pandora.cms.udel.edu| monty python and the holy grail --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54085">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54085" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 showing a meaningless (relatively) baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than 3 seconds left on the clock? gimme a break! where does espn get these brilliant decisions from? it's called 'contractual obligations' with major league baseball. i would've liked to see the ot of the isles-caps game, but i understand where espn is coming from. espn is committed to a single telecast a night and everything after that is a bonus. -ppv mark 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54087">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54087" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 but only in ny,nj, philadelphia, and chicago. everywhere else, the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts. and local baseball pre-empted the nhl playoffs. thus far into this good point. not only baseball but local nba basketball games took precedence over any sca's nhl playoff coverage. -ppv mark 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54089">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54089" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 it's true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many a year before quinn came, but in those years the smythe division was a lot--i mean *a lot*-- tougher division than the norris, also known as the "snorris", division. vancouver had to play edmonton and calgary, both very legitimate stanley cup contenders, eight times a year, while detroit got to play such powerhouses as toronto and minnesota. now, edmonton is hardly even a force in the league, and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks, while them thar's fighting words...hardly a force...geez...miss the playoffs once in 15 years, and even after making the final four 3 times in the last five years, and everyone thinks its doomsville. over this same period of time in which vancouver was improving, so was everybody in the norris (except st. louis). detroit had to improve just to keep up with the competition in their division. they had to improve *a lot* to get better than their competition in the norris. bryan murray inherited a team with very little talent. for really good players, they had yzerman, burr, and probert, and that was about it. (and no doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good). the rest were either very green rookies or washed up veterans. the only reason they got as far as they did in the years before murray came was due to the coaching of demers, who, at least at first, got every last ounce of effort possible out of his team. then, even his coaching began to degrade. fedorov, primeau, kozlov, lidstrom, sillinger, konstantinov, drake, kennedy, racine, and cheveldae were already in the pipeline due to devellano...murray inherited these guys...in addition to yzerman, probert, carson, chiasson, etc. there are a number of reasons why detroit wasn't in as bad a shape standings wise when murray took over as vanc. was when quinn took over, some of which i outlined above, but murray did not have any better personnel to work with at the outset than did quinn, with the exception of yzerman. and one player cannot alone make a team into a stanley cup contender, as i'm sure everyone reading this will agree. no...quinn had far less...murray took over detroit at a time to take advantage of all of devellano's good drafting...if devellano had not given in to demers request to make the oates trade, he might still be gm. 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54090">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54090" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 m(--> were doomed to 4'th in the division. i'm still not convinced the m(--> sabres will win this series (i've lived in buffalo all my life, and m(--> these last 10 years have been playoff hell), but i'm just sitting m(--> back, crossing my fingers and hoping the offense can keep scoring have no fear, doug, the bruins are toast. statistically, only 2 teams in **all** the stanley cup series ever played have come back to win. and it couldn't have happened to a nicer team, with all the crowing from boston fans i've had to endure over the last month. take heart, bruins fans. at least you finished first in the adams <sinister chuckle>. * laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot. rosereader 2.10 p003814 entered at [rose] rosemail 2.10 : rosenet<=>usenet gateway : rose media 416-733-2285 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54095">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54095" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 tonight in boston, the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins 4-0 tonight in boston. looks like boston can hang this season up, because buffalo's home record is awesome!!!! this is great.. buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year!!!!! :) i'm glad grant fuhr will never be as over-confident after two wins as you are...it takes four wins to defeat an opponent...each tougher to obtain than the previous one. buffalo is off to a good start... fuhr is proving the fuhr-bashers wrong, but boston is an awfully good team. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54096">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54096" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 could anyone post the game summary for the sabres-bruins game. grant fuhr rules! -). 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54100">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54100" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 i knew, despite the lack of a full game telecast last week, it was still too much hockey for atlanta. atlanta's abc has declined to pick up any playoff games till may9. and even when they show the games on may9 and may16, they will continue to skip the first half hour of the telecast. i know this is still a better situation compared to rest of georgia, alabama, etc., but it is still pretty annoying. at least in pittsburgh, we had a network preemptionchannel which showed all netwoork shows prempted by the local affiliate. i asked them what their problem was. i told them that a local 1.9 rating was not that bad considering it was the first nhl game shown after a long time without much promotion. besides, their syndicated programming in the afternoon is usually low rated. so what did they have to lose by showing nhl playoffs. she told me that they had contractual obligations. i asked her if golf was shown oin abc, would contractual obligations come in the way. and how come contractual obligations didn't come in the way of last week's telecast? she then couldn't give me a coherent answer. also, i added that atlanta had one of the highest neutral site game attendances and that the demographics were good. i think abc and other networks should begin to tie their high rated programs like roseanne in with thier sports programming. i hope that everyone in atlanta who reads this bboard calls wsb 2 and complain bitterlyt about this. tell them you will stop watching their news telecasts since they seem to be very unprofessional in handling this situation. the lady did not seem to settle on a single reason. sometimes, the reason is low ratings. then another time, she says contractual obligations. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54101">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54101" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 while watching the penguins/devils game last night, i saw the "slash" that barrasso took on the neck. this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate. i think he was a sabre, but i'm not positive. does anyone remember/know his name? what has happened to him since? what about the player whose skate cut the goalie? name? info? has this ever happened before in a hockey game? go pens! his name is clint malarchuk. i'm not sure what he does now but i've heard he's an extra in slasher films. --brian 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54102">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54102" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 ok. i know i look pretty desperate on this bboard. i think i have posted 3 or 4 messages already on the issue of nhl telecats over the last few weeks. but, hey. i am pretty desperate. what i am interested is not just a sportsbar with multiple screens so thast i can watch the game on one of those silent screens. are there any hockey oriented bars in this area. or does some patrick division or adams division fan have a satellite dish? i don't mind paying an admission fee, if necessary. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54103">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54103" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn't know anything about him, i don't know whether it is just this area (pittsburgh) of the usa that is "deprived" of his broadcasts or whether he's a canadian thing altogether. seriously, what is he all about? i know he was a coach at one time, and from the volume of posts about him, someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow, but my question is, what is the deal with him? secondly, are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait, or do people actually take him seriously? i gotta tell you, from what i see, he really sounds like an ass. let me know - maybe i'm missing something. for those of you who complain about don cherry, and wonder why he is popular... the reply is dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell. john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all-madden team a lot, over much better receivers...for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour...a little guy with heart...yet one doesn't see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles. dick vitale is always promoting this kid from this high school or that college with outrageous statements. why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters in relation to our greatest passion...which is hockey? canadians are very similar to americans...culturally our sports are just hockey and curling, whereas with americans it is football/basketball/baseball and bowling. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54104">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54104" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 however, bowman is really not a modern coach, and patrick's solution of having him only run the team on game days, and delegate most of the day-to-day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick's part. i would argue gerald, that bowman is the first "modern" coach. bowman's canadiens were the first nhl team to have a weight-room in the 70s. he is the first coach i have seen, that manipulates the press into spreading false game plan rumours. (during important games listen to the pre-game interview will bowman and compare that to what is on the ice!) i agree bowman is a master of the lineups. remember last year in the sc when he benched jagr only to set him free in ot. when jagr banged in the winning goal i thought this was trademark bowman and also a sign of a modern coach! i am left asking "what is a modern coach if not bowman?" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54105">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54105" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref. presently in the nhl. we was robbed!!!! no. patrick roy is the reason the game was lost, and ron hextall is the reason quebec won. i don't buy this at all. roy was the reason the game was tied... and that would *not* have been the case had dionne kept his cool. roy stood on his head for the first 15 minutes of the game when the nords were rushing from end-to-end. kamensky's mini-break after the tying goal and the first shot by young in ot were both excellent chances stopped by roy. roy outplayed hextall for most of the game, but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy's team didn't make full use of their opportunities. whoa. what you are effectively doing is implying that if a player plays really well, he 'stores up' mistakes that can be used at a later time. ths is not so. roy is the 'villain', as you so succinctly put it, because he allowed a very cheap goal. if you think roy outplayed hextall, perhaps you should get a tape of the game and watch the first 7-8 minutes of the third period. nhl goaltenders _make_ some great saves. if they did not, they would not be in the nhl in the first place. i do not expect any particular goalie to be able to make the great saves all of the time, even though they are occasionally required. however, when it comes to a routine shot like sakic's, especially at such a crucial time in a game, i don't think there are any legitimate excuses. hextall, on the other hand, had a lot of lucky bounces [description of lucky bounces.....] hextall wasn't particularly brilliant on those plays ... i am not arguing that hextall was brilliant. i am arguing is that a relatively weak wrist shot from the outside of the circle shold not result in a goal. ... but it was just the 1 goal. the timing stank, but against an explosive team like quebec, they gave them 1 opportunity too many with a powerplay that was totally unnecessary. in a one-goal game with less than a minute to go there is no such thing as 'just the 1 goal'. i have not defended dionne for taking the penalty either...in fact i think it was a boneheaded move. but it led to _one_ goal only, and montreal had a _two_ goal lead. my main concern is the second this most certainly was a team loss... leclair missed his opportunities, as did bellows and brunet. dionne took a bad penalty. damphousse and lebeau were *silent*. carbonneau and savard were a step behind all night. roy gave up the bad goal. roy, by no means, can be singled out for this loss. what you say about the skaters is absolutely true. but realize that the game was effectively *won*. you could watch any hockey game (in fact, you could watch any sporting event period) and spend hours discussing the 'what if's' w.r.t. missed opportunities. they are not important when the final result is decided. if i get the time soon, i'll watch the game again and email you a list of lucky montreal bounces and a list of quebec offensive screwups. montreal was _leading_ with a minute to go. the goalie is the last line of defence, and i will grant that extra attention is focussed on him, sometimes without justification. but roy gave up a *lousy* goal, and a team cannot afford such a goal. roy looked like a player in an industrial league on sakic's shot. and hextall didn't on dionne's goal? please. who cares? of what value is it to justify one lousy play with a totally unrelated lousy play? i could do a hextall critique if you'd like. but if you're going to assess his performance, keep in mind that he made the key saves at the key times. roy is paid big money because that is his value compared to other goalies ... and he still is in the top 5 for the record, i did not say that roy was not one of the top goaltenders in the league. in fact, i agree that he is. the montreal media is the quickest to heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs. they are no better than uninformed fans. i assume you are referring to me. however, i have pointed out that i think the loss can be blamed on roy. i have not said he sucks, nor do i think i've made any other 'derogatory comments'. if you regard objective (and informed, fyi) observations as derogatory, i really can't help you. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54106">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54106" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 ok, buffalo fans. i am a red wings fan, but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins. is there any reason for this? is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine? i would like to hear from you since i do not know about the sabres. dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu pure and simple, grant fuhr is money. he has been awesome in the playoffs, especially last night. but mogilny has been scoring well, and his russian friend kymlev (sp?) has also done well. but fuhr is the biggest reason they are winning, and the difference between this year's team and previous years. bill perry 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54116">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54116" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 espn is pathetic, i have been watching everybody complain about espn's coverage and i agree with all of you. might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing. we all knew that espn's coverage was going to suck. i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey? it sucks, i mean really sucks!!! espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass. i was really pissed of about last night, coverage. i go to school in ohio i *know* the indians suck, so why show them? if i were bill clement i would shoot myself. anyway after i calmed down after i realized that they were not going to show overtime of the caps isles game i thought to myself i knew that this was going to happen, in fact i remerbed myself praying that at least they would keep even the boring devils game. overall i think espn does not care if they show hockey or not and i firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans. ie *because of contract obligations*, screw you espn. praise be to all hockey fans who put up with this shit! go hawks!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54118">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54118" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 -=> quoting cire y. trehguad to all <=- : >and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, : >resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other : >team captain trivia would be appreciated. cyt> ; cyt> : wasn't ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to cyt> : pittsburgh? cyt> and rick tochett was the captain of the flyers when traded to the pens cyt> recently... cyt> caleb cyt> and let us not forget that the new jersey devils traded cyt> captain kirk muller for stephen richer and chorske cyt> man i hated that trade! well as for team captains being traded in there first year in the nhl the edmonton oilers traded their captain ron chiperfield to the quebec nordique right at the trading deadline for goaltender ron lowe in their second year of existence the edmonton oilers again right at the trade deadline traded their captain, this time b.j. mcdonald to the vancouver canucks along with the rights to winger ken berry for garry lariviere and the rights to lars gunner petterson as for more captain trivia, the next edmonton captain was lee fogilin who was later traded to the buffalo sabres, after him was wayne gretzky who was traded to l a, then came kevin low who only this year was traded to the n y rangers so that every captain the edmonton oilers have had has been traded. the present captain is craig mctavish and we'll just have to wait and see. well talk to you later ... answers: $1, short: $5, correct: $25, dumb looks are still free. ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54120">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54120" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 in the boston area, you can hear the rangers on wfan and the devils on wabc, the whalers on wtic and the red wings on wjr. this of course is in addition to the bruins who are currently on weei but may move to whdh because the fools at weei are owned by the celtics and thus will show them over the bruins every time there is a conflict. you can also get wbal baltimore but i don't think they have hockey. btw, i once got a station from indiana that had fort wayne comets games. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54121">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54121" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 : >showing a meaningless (relatively) baseball game over the overtime of : >game that was tied up with less than 3 seconds left on the clock? what actually happened. after the pens game, i turned to espn and the game was nearly at the end of regular, then the phone rang. i turened off the tv - later when i turned it back on, the indians were on... then a little later, the hockey games was on again, then the baseball game... what was actually on - not that it matters any more, but some hockey was in deed on... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54122">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54122" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
<context>
 goodbye minnesota,...you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place! whatta weird town!!!!! whatta ass!!!!! go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54124">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54124" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 way back in the early years (~50's) it took 8 wins to garner the stanley cup. soooooo, a couple of local fish mongers (local to the joe louis arena, that is) started the tradition of throwing an octopi onto the ice with every win. after each victory, one leg would be severed before the octopus found its way to the ice. (they are dead by the way.) it was a brilliant marketing strategy to shore up the demand for one of their least popular products. hope this helps. j. lange 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54125">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54125" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 in article <1993apr23.020006.583@spang.camosun.bc.ca> "ua256@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (tom moffat)" says: can some on e give me some stats on forsrg in the world championships if sao mail to ua256@freenet.victoria.bc.ca tom moffat victoria b.c. here are the top point getters in the world jr hockey championships: g a p forsberg,swe 7 24 31 <<i am sooo glad i have both these guys on my naslund,swe 13 11 24 <<rotisserrie team. but then again, w/ mario, vyborny,cze-slo 6 9 15 bure, gretzky, neely, p. turgeon, damphousse, sundstrom,swe 10 4 14 lebeau and juneau, dunno how much time lehtinen,fin 6 8 14 they'll get.. :) :) :) 
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 : >in fact, the tradition has been passed down to their affiliate : >in adirondack. in gm 6 of last yr's finals, an 8 legged creature was : >hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right at the feet of ref : >lance roberts. : it may have been passed to toronto, but i've even seen an octopus at : the aud -- last year's bruins-sabres game. i knew all about the : detroit version, but seeing at the aud was a bit puzzling. :-) i don't think it's puzzling a bit. it's called "unoriginality". (no, i'm not bitter :) + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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 nhl playoff results for 4/20/93. conference semi-finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf (leads 2-0) stl (leads 1-0) win pit (leads 2-0) bos chi van (leads 1-0) nyi (tied 1-1) mon tor la (leads 1-0) was que (leads 2-0) det (leads 1-0) cal new jersey devils 0 0 0 - 0 pittsburgh penguins (leads series 2-0) 2 4 1 - 7 1st period: pit, mceachern 1 - (francis, taglianetti) 15:09 pit, m.lemieux 3 - (u.samuelsson, barrasso) (sh) 17:41 2nd period: pit, tocchet 2 - (k.stevens, u.samuelsson) 3:48 pit, jagr 2 - (francis, ramsey) 12:39 pit, k.stevens 1 - (francis, murphy) (pp) 15:43 pit, mceachern 2 - (daniels, mullen) 16:46 3rd period: pit, mullen 1 - (francis, barrasso) 17:42 powerplay opportunities-devils 0 of 5 penguins 1 of 4 shots on goal- devils 12 11 13 - 36 penguins 13 10 4 - 27 new jersey devils--terreri (0-2) (23 shots - 17 saves) billington (0:00 third) (4 shots - 3 saves) pittsburgh penguins--barrasso (2-0) (36 shots - 36 saves) att-16,164 new york islanders (series tied 1-1) 1 1 2 0 1 - 5 washington capitals 0 2 2 0 0 - 4 1st period: nyi, turgeon 1 - (king, thomas) 13:14 2nd period: was, hunter 3 - (johansson, miller) 6:33 nyi, turgeon 2 - (thomas, vaske) 12:36 was, hunter 4 - (johansson, carpenter) (pp) 16:51 3rd period: nyi, hogue 1 - 3:31 was, khristich 2 - (cavallini, bondra) 7:16 nyi, ferraro 2 - (flatley, hogue) 14:50 was, hunter 5 - (johansson, khristich) (pp) 19:57 1 overtime: none 2 overtime: nyi, mullen 1 - (ferraro, flatley) 14:15 powerplay opportunities-islanders 0 of 5 capitals 2 of 5 shots on goal- islanders 14 17 8 13 9 - 61 capitals 6 9 11 14 5 - 45 new york islanders--healy (1-1) (45 shots - 41 saves) washington capitals--tabaracci (1-1) (61 shots - 56 saves) att-15,421 montreal canadiens 0 0 1 - 1 quebec nordiques (leads series 2-0) 3 0 1 - 4 1st period: que, leschyshyn 1 - (kamensky, sakic) (pp) 4:19 que, young 2 - (lapointe) 11:41 que, young 3 - (lapointe, duchesne) 13:56 2nd period: none 3rd period: mon, bellows 2 - (odelein) 11:05 que, lapointe 1 - (ricci) (en) 19:23 powerplay opportunities-canadiens 0 of 1 nordiques 1 of 2 shots on goal- canadiens 8 10 15 - 33 nordiques 18 14 6 - 38 montreal canadiens--roy (0-2) (37 shots - 34 saves) quebec nordiques--hextall (2-0) (33 shots - 32 saves) att-15,399 buffalo sabres (leads series 2-0) 2 1 1 - 4 boston bruins 0 0 0 - 0 1st period: buf, presley 1 - (sh) 4:27 buf, wood 1 - (houlder, b.sweeney) (pp) 8:07 2nd period: buf, mogilny 3 - (lafontaine) 5:03 3rd period: buf, hawerchuk 1 - (carney, smehlik) (pp) 14:48 powerplay opportunities-sabres 2 of 4 bruins 0 of 5 shots on goal- sabres 9 8 8 - 25 bruins 14 12 8 - 34 buffalo sabres--fuhr (2-0) (34 shots - 34 saves) boston bruins--moog (0-2) (10 shots - 7 saves) blue (5:03 second) (15 shots - 14 saves) att-14,448 -spike- 
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 espn is pathetic, i have been watching everybody complain about espn's coverage and i agree with all of you. might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing. we all knew that espn's coverage was going to suck. i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey? it sucks, i mean really sucks!!! espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass. i was really pissed of about last night, coverage. i go to school in ohio i *know* the indians suck, so why show them? if i were bill clement i would shoot myself. i hope this makes you feel better, but the overtime between the isles and the caps was great!!! hang in there. :) 
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 believe it or not, we do have phone books, but the current information does not include an area code for edmonton alberta. i would not be so hostile towards others for asking simple questions... "i would rather appear stupid than open my moutha nd remove all doubt." -mark twain "if you assult someone you get 5 years--in hockey, 5 minutes. is this a great sport or what?!" kevin d. frank kfrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 
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 if i were pat burns i'd throw in the towel. the wings dominated every aspect of the game. trying to mix up the lines is a dead end. murray has too many combinations to counter with. my prediction is wings in 5. let's go wings!!! 
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 buffalo is up 2-0 is the series with boston, and the reason....grant fuhr ? fuhr is playoff hungry, and he's proving once again why they call him money goaltender. fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore (statistically at least), but he's proving that he can make the big save at the right time. the leafs should have kept fuhr, and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit. but again.......where was andreychoke in game 1 ? i can see the huge smile on gerald's face after fuhr's performance. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54134">
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 does anyone recieve annoying email from roger maynard whenever they post an article telling them to leave him alon and stop posting to the group?? these emails are filled with insults- more than are usual in roger's posts and have little if any hockey info. i have recieved two in the last 2 days. i am just wondering if i am special or roger trys to bully everyone who disagrees with him. obligatory hockey comment: it is highly unlikely that the maple leafs will even get out of their 
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 back to hockey, the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit. a real team like toronto would never be moved!!! well, if shit means going to the stanley cup finals a couple years ago, i'd rather be shit than a leaf fan. go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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 teemu selanne had 3 goals, keith tkachuk had one, and luciano borsato scored a rare jets shorthanded goal as the jets held on to beat the canucks 5-4, and close the series to 2-1. trevor linden and pavel bure had two goals each for the canucks in a losing cause. selanne came out of a two game goal scoring slump, scoring two powerplay goals, and one on a nice breakaway pass from darrin shannon. hard work paid off tonight for the jets, and if the jets continue to exhibit this strong work effort, they can make a series of it. (i woofed last year when we were up 3-1...i ain't going to do that again. i'll have to be quietly happy with a solid performance. ;) daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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 according to the hockey gurus over at espn, should the islanders win tonite the two teams will have the same record, but the devils will be playing the penguins. this is because the islanders have won the season series against the devils. i think the rules for deciding a tie breaker include: 1. season series 2. goals against 3. goals for in this order (correct me if i'm wrong). anyone have anything to add? i thought it was 1) wins 2) goals for. 
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 - broadcast more home games than away games - broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games - jack up my ticket prices from $27 to $38 in two years (not that i'm going to pay 120 bucks for 3 seats. i'll probably next to virtual 107 folks) - not tell me my priority # - not let me sell my priority # - in order for me to get the free jacket, force me to order my for next season before i get to select my section - not let me park at the new arena after paying for their grrrr, let's start a whole 'nother topic on show bad the sharks are doing on these things. i swear that all of my partial plan games were televised (i know, i'm exaggerating, but...). in order: -the new ticket prices suck -wait 'till people try to park at games next year. public transit? yeah right, i'd love to take caltrain for 3 hours to see a 3 hour game. shelling out hundreds of dollars for partial season plans for two years doesnt mean anything to the sharks, as i get to pick my seats after the dead rise from their graves to claim their seats! :-) frank giraffe- fgiraffe@well.sf.ca.us - {apple,pacbell,ucbvax}!well!fgiraffe as the noose of narco-militarism tightens 'round our necks, we worry about burning flags and pee in jars at work to keep our jobs. -- jello biafra 
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 as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn't know anything about him, i don't know whether it is just this area (pittsburgh) of the usa that is "deprived" of his broadcasts or whether he's a canadian thing altogether. seriously, what is he all about? i he's a canadian "thing". former coach of the boston bruins and colorado rockies. from the summaries that get posted i gather that his ongoing beef this year has been the conventional wisdom that canadian hockey is doomed to be second or third rate behind the perceived emergence of the u.s. and european programs. know he was a coach at one time, and from the volume of posts about him, someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow, but my question is, what is the deal with him? secondly, are the comments of his that i after he left the rockies, he got a job with cbc's hockey night in canada and hasn't looked back since. actually, he did work for cbc at least on playoff season after the rockies were eliminated. read about on the net merely flame bait, or do people actually take him seriously? i gotta tell you, from what i see, he really sounds like an i'd say it's a combination of flame bait and serious journalism. the closest thing you'll find to cherry in the u.s. is stan fischler, a self-described hockey maven. the similarities are that they both say things that get people upset. the difference is that cherry knows the game and fischler doesn't. ass. let me know - maybe i'm missing something. don's a character. if he were completely rational and noncontroversial he wouldn't have a job. by some definitions, he could be called an ass. but then some people feel the same about mike lang, another character that i wish would get wider exposure (only one national telecast last year). mike eisler, mre@eng.sun.com ``not only are they [leafs] the best team, but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh's. their players are mighty bright, too. i mean, he really *was* going to get his wallet back, right?'' jan brittenson 3/93, on leaf/pen woofers in rec.sport.hockey 
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 current votes for favorite goalie masks (3pts - 1st, 2pts - 2nd, 1pt - 3rd) player team pts votes 1. ed belfour chicago 31 14 2. andy moog boston 30 13 3. curtis joseph st. louis 26 11 brian hayward san jose 26 10 5. ron hextall quebec 16 8 6. gerry cheevers boston (retired) 11 6 7. john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers 10 4 grant fuhr buffalo 10 4 9. mike richter ny rangers 6 3 10. manon rheaume atlanta (ihl) 5 2 11. don beaupre washington 4 2 ken dryden montreal (retired) 4 2 others receiving less than 4pts: mike vernon (cal), clint malarchuk (buf/sd,ihl), tommy soderstrom (phil), ray leblanc (usa), artus irbe (sj), tim cheveldae (det), sean burke (nj), rick wamsley (tor,ret), jon casey (minn), bob essensa (win), glenn healy (nyi), toy espo (???), gilles gratton (???), rod stauber (la), gump worsley (???), pat jablonski (tb), grant fuhr (tor), felix potvin (tor), stephane beauregard (win), mark fitzpatrick (nyi), chico resch (nyi) can someone please tell me which teams the (???) play(ed) for? thanks. go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54163">
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 so all us hockey/automobile racing fans all know exactly where we stand espn delays the martinsville race by a day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead of the overtime of a nhl playoff game gimme a break, guys => >>does anyone know why this race is tape delay? especially until monday??? => >is this the weekend for the nfl draft? => >if so, postponing the race for a day is => >a real slap in the face for racing fans. => i'm afraid you're right (as usual). as i recall they've been doing this => ever since they started covering the draft live. i wish they could work => out some kind of a deal with somebody else such as tnn to get the race => on live, but i guess espn isn't much into sharing. it also clarifies => where auto racing stands on their priority list (as if we didn't already => know ;-) charlie shub cdash@cs.colorado.edu -or- (719) 593-3492 on leave at the university of iowa cdash@cs.uiowa.edu (319) 335-0739 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54164">
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 : finland: : d-jyrki lumme.......20 : d-teppo numminen....20 : d-peter ahola.......13 well well, they don't like our defenders (mainly lumme and numminen)... about 25 is correct for numminen and lumme. : r-teemu selanne.....27 compared to kurri, selanne's points are too high, lets make it 25 or 26. no, kurri's points are too low. 27 for kurri and 28 for sel{nne. : well in the canada cup and world championships largely due to the efforts of : markus ketterer (the goalie), 3-4 or the players listed above and luck. there's : presumably a lot of decent players in finland that wouldn't be superstars at : the highest level but still valuable role players, however. my guess would be : that the finnish canada cup team would be a .500 team in the nhl. wow, now, it looks like you don't like our players? what about guys like: nieminen, jutila, riihijarvi, varvio, laukkanen, makela, keskinen and (even if he is aging) ruotsalainen? the main difference between finnish and north- american players is, that our players tend to be better in the larger rink. the canadian defenders are usually slower that defenders in europe. and i think that there was more in our success than ketterer and luck (though they helped). i think that the main reason was, that the team worked well that's true. game is so different here in europe compared to nhl. north-ame- ricans are better in small rinks and europeans in large rinks. an average european player from sweden, finland, russian or tsech/slovakia is a better skater and puckhandler than his nhl colleague. especially defenders in nhl are mainly slow and clumsy. sel{nne has also said that in the finnish sm-league game is more based on skill than in nhl. in finland he couldn't get so many breakaways because defenders here are an average much better skaters than in nhl. also alpo suhonen said that in nhl sel{nne's speed accentuates because of clumsy defensemen. i have to admit that the best players come from canada, but those regulars aren't as skilful as regulars in the best european leagues. also top europeans are in the same level as the best north-americans.(except lemieux is in the class of his own). 
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 interestingly, keenan's co-coach (or is it his "number one"?) on team canada at the world championships is roger neilsen. but ultimately their hockey philosophies are like night and day... keenan believes in pressuring the opposition and taking the initiative (within the limits of his system)...while roger has a reactive hockey philosophy...which is why messier will be able to and has played for keenan, but thought roger's way was a sure loser. it'd be interesting if the rangers call in the balance of neilsen's contract to be keenan's assistant ... roger did do a very good job with the mediocre players, just as he handled the cinderella canucks of 10 years ago ... but his mistake was playing the rangers like those canucks last may ... roger is a great assistant coach...but considering what must be bad blood between nielson and messier, it would be a mistake to bring him back even in that role. 
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 as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn't know anything about him, i don't know whether it is just this area (pittsburgh) of the usa that is "deprived" of his broadcasts or whether he's a canadian thing altogether. seriously, what is he all about? i know he was a coach at one time, and from the volume of posts about him, someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow, but my question is, what is the deal with him? secondly, are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait, or do people actually take him seriously? i gotta tell you, from what i see, he really sounds like an ass. let me know - maybe i'm missing something. from his topps "rookie" year (as coach) card (74-75): "for the past couple of seasons, don has been the highly-successful coach of the rochester americans of the ahl, but he is getting his first shot at an nhl job with the bruins. named coach of the year in the ahl the last two years, and he aims to make the bruins a rough team again, as they were a couple of years back. although he played 16 seasons of professional hockey, don never played a regular-season nhl game. he did appear in one playoff game for boston in 1956-57. don's brother, dick, played two seasons in the nhl with boston and philadelphia." mark mckinzie | listen, if they're going to buy lunch boxes, mckinzie@math.wisc.edu | they might as well buy david cassidy lunch boxes. uw dept. of mathematics| madison, wi 53706 | -david cassidy- 
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 |> i watched the game germany-czechs in wc today...and i was astonished about |> the behaviour of the german audience! |> the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went it was not just those penalties. most of all it was the penalty the referee didn't call on the czechs right before their first goal. |> grazy! they threw coins, extra pucks and other trash into the rink...is |> that stupid or what?? i guess the canadian referee (one of the |> isostar-bros ;) gave the german team a penalty for that, but it didn't help |> much. |> i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi-kill-'em-all-everyone- don't you think it's quite silly to call it a nazi attitude, when some people throw coins on the ice? hey, i don't approve the behavior of these guys, especially not in a wc game, but i can't see any reason for using the word 'nazi' in this connection. |> but-us-germans-sucks attitude...they just seem to have that kind of attitude |> in every possible sport (remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer) soccer hooligans are not just a german problem (remember the world cup in italy). again: there's a big difference between throwing coins and smashing shop-windows or fighting with other so-called 'fans', who come to a wc just to see if the dutch or the english or the germans are the best bruisers. which other sports are you talking about? i don't think soccer is 'every possible sport'. |> it really pisses me off! |> i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks, but |> most of them seem to do... how many germans do you know? do you think 200 out of 10000 is 'most of them'? if you hear about some white policemen beating a black man in the us, what do you think about the americans? 'most of them' like beating blacks? |> jokke kylmaoja |> golf@phoenix.oulu.fi 
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 [...] i'd like to see some playoff games since i'm stuck in buffalo at ub, but i think boston isn't giving up so easy. no, boston probably won't go down easy, but if the sabres hadn't won game one buffalo would have been out in four. and what problem are you having with playoff games here in buffalo???!!!??? there's the sabres-bruins, quebec-montreal, and whatever espn and abc show, and on opposite nights there's toronto-detroit and whatever espn(/abc) shows. more hockey than a good chunk of north america, either side of the border. it's wonderful, and there are thousands of folks who'd kill to be in your shoes, coverage-wise. valerie hammerl john sr. would lift pat over the boards, grab hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu his hand, and start running around the outside, v085pwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu faster and faster. "i wanted to learn how to get that feeling, and the only way was to learn how to skate." p. lafontaine 
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 what about including points? probably no goals (at least against opponents) but there have been several assists given. ian neath | there are four kinds of people in this world: neath@psych.purdue.edu | cretins, fools, morons and lunatics - u. eco 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54175">
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 |> >#45 dody wood season: 1st |> >acquired: 3rd round pick in 1991 entry draft |> >grade: i (d+/d, although perhaps i shouldn't give a grade at all) |> >i have been accused of knocking on wood too much. |> you? nah... |> he was seriously unimpressive, even as a tough guy (his rep). however, as |> few games as he had in a season that was at that point meaningless, i hate |> to judge the talent too quickly. butn in dody's case, i"m tempted to make an |> exception. |> but i won't. wood played most of his junior career in seattle. he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in 1992. he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl. however, i was extremely surprised when he was drafted, especially in the third round. he certainly didn't look like nhl material... paul brownlow | visualize data i/o corp. redmond, wa | whirled paul@data-io.com | peas 
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 okay... here's some gripe"ing" (?griping?... whatever). (i live in santa barbara... for reference... i think) okay, abc showed the kings/flames... fine... yawn. espn (through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game) showed the red wings/toronto game... cool. but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt/nj on tuesday and bos/buff on thursday. i raced home from work early (4:30 pacific) to catch the game, but alas, it was the boston/buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt/nj game on thursday. overnight they changed their mind. i didn't mind that much. i watched the game (hockey is much better than no hockey). during the game their were no video highlights from the patrick division. what the hell was going on? at least they should show video highlights of the other games (especially the nyi/caps game that was so close). my father (lives in bowling green, kentucky [bumbf*ck, egypt]) got to watch the pens game on espn. i just don't get it. the biggest problem is that buffalo or boston fans who didn't want to see the pittsburgh/new jersey game 2, will turn on their tvs on thursday and see the pittsburgh/new jersey game 3 instead of the buffalo/boston game 3. at least, in my case, i just had to wait 2 more days to see my game. if i were a big boston or buffalo fan and i missed the game on tuesday due to false advertising on the part of espn, i'd be mad as oh well... hopefully we'll get better coverage next year or matt coohill p.s. the announcers for the buffalo/boston were the worst that i have ever heard (as far emotion goes). they had the enthusiasm of "droopy dog". i hope for better on thursday. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54184">
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 i heard a little while back that gary roberts would be returning to play in calgary's last regular season game. can anybody confirm this?? he'll be a big help to the flames in the playoffs and may change my playoff pool strategy. roberts played in last night game against the sharks and got a goal (38th) and an assist. this definitely bolsters calgary's chances in the playoffs. rahim hirji | rahim hirji life is what happens while you are | actuarial science making other plans | rhirji@descartes.uwaterloo.ca | university of waterloo 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54185">
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 |> united states tv schedule: |> april 18 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 1 est abc |> april 18 st. louis at chicago 12 cdt abc |> april 18 los angeles at calgary 12 pdt abc okay, here's the down side of the espn deal: no additional coverage. with a split contract, sca could have at least gotten at leftovers like canucks-jets, caps-whoever and red wings-leafs (or whoever else is playing). |> april 20 devils/islanders at pittsburgh 7:30 espn |> april 22 tba 7:30 espn |> april 24 tba 7:30 espn does anyone know if there will be alternate games in cities where local broadcast rights are being protected? for our area (islanders-devils), it's likely to be the bruins, since the other adams series is montreal-quebec. i'd prefer the latter myself ... i'm under the impression that the abc deal overrides the local deals, but if st. louis at chicago pops up we'll know ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54192">
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 oh, excuse me for wasting the bandwidth, but i was referring to the original incident, not the recent skirmish which occurred this past month. tom huot huot@cray.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54194">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54194" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 here is an update on the goalie mask poll... first, since so many people gave me their 3 best, i decided to give 3 pts for their favorite, 2 pts for 2nd, 1 for 3rd. if you e-mailed a response with only one, i gave it 3 pts. please feel free to send me your 2 other favorites, if you only sent one before. also, votes are still welcome! any mask you like will do, as i have received votes for players not in the nhl. please mention what team they play for, though. so here are the up-to-date results so far: my vote goes to andy moog 1st, belfour 2nd, vanbiesbrouck 3rd the bruin's are hot at just the right time !!!!! rich beskosty rbeskost@east.sun.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54195">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54195" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 you should be ashamed to call yourself an ulf samuelson fan. anybody who plays the way he does, does not belong in the nhl. there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game, but a lot of them have been talanted players. bobby clarke, kenny linsemen, pie mckenzie, chris chelios etc.. but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf. violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like (should have been a women) samuelson don't belong. when players like ulf, who's main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue, and the league won't stop it, the players should. a christian pro 1000 aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely. if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future, you can bet neely will have his day. the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is, is worth almost as much as a stanely cup. this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game. if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup, the penguins would not even notice he's gone. he's an eyesore on the game of hockey. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54196">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54196" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 does anyone recieve annoying email from roger maynard whenever they post an article telling them to leave him alon and stop posting to the group?? these emails are filled with insults- more than are usual in roger's posts and have little if any hockey info. i have recieved two in the last 2 days. i am just wondering if i am special or roger trys to bully everyone who disagrees with him. you can't be serious! i and many of my colleagues have not received any bad e-mails from roger, in fact, roger happens to have answered most if not all of my hockey questions and curiosities, so before you start flaming at me or roger, better re-consider your nasty attitude towards roger and the like! steve lee * university of western ontario * london, canada lee139@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca speaking of roger, where is his comments from last nights game. you have to admit he can make a nothing game sound like it was game 7 of the stanley cup finals. roger pushes the leafs so much it even bothers me, a long time supporter but he does have a good overall idea of the game. wow i just gave r.m a compliment, guess i better stop it with the rye + water before i give him another.. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54197">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54197" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 so i don't know what you mean by parity; boston never was, is not now, and never will be as good an organization as the montreal canadiens. never was? probably. is not now? debatable. what other valid test can you think of besides the final standings or divisional playoff winner? what do you propose, a worthless vote like they do in college football? what a joke! you boston fans make me laugh: you're going crazy based on a very recent boston domination over montreal in the playoffs. i mean how many cups has boston won compared to montreal's 23? and who do you think is going to win the **next** cup between the 2 teams? montreal or boston? you know sinden's going to find some way of screwing up even this good boston team. he'll fire suter or trade away a vital star. (admittedly, his last few trades have been good ones but how long before his luck runs out and he starts making esposito-for- ratelle type trades again?) if i remember right, brad park was also involved in that trade. he wasn't all that bad a hockey player. but let's look at some of sinden's trades over the years: ??? for rick middleton (rangers). i don't know who sinden gave up for middle- ton, so i'll call this one a +. barry pederson for cam neely (canucks). +++. any questions? greg hawgood for vladimir ruzicka (oilers). ++. didja see that one rosie roofed against roy in last year's playoffs? courtnall/ranford for andy moog (oilers). a wash. moog is a good goaltender, ranford burned boston in the finals in his first year, and courtnall always seems to get his points. anyone in vancouver care to comment on courtnall as a defensive liability? ken linseman for dave poulin (flyers) ++. any more questions? janney/quintal for adam oates (blues). ++. janney is an enormous talent and a personable guy, the the bruins play in adam's division. enough said? so,even if you count the esposito/vadnais/ratelle/park/i don't remember who else (joe zanussi?) trade as a double minus, harry the horse trader comes out on top. i submit that the bruins are always good because of harry, not in spite of him. btw, do you really think the habs will bounce back next season. i'll bet they finish fourth or fifth in the conference, behind any of the following: pittsburgh, quebec, boston, washington, islanders. someone correct me if these five teams will not be in montreal's conference. in summary, things look bleak for the habs, at least in the near future. i suspect that the next team from la belle province to win the cup will be that team that lindros didn't want to play for. i admit that i've been suffering lately with the boston gets hot while montreal swans in the playoffs type years. but i **do** have the sure knowledge that the montreal braintrust will keep plugging away until they hit the right formula for yet another cup. whereas if i were a boston fan, i'd have this kind of despair that as long as harry sinden is running the show, the bruins will always be good but **never** good enough. dan lyddy daniell@cory.berkeley.edu university of california at berkeley my two favorite hockey teams: 1) the boston bruins 2) whoever's playing pittsburgh 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54198">
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 [much text deleted] : plus/minus ... it is the most misleading hockey stat available. not necessarily the most misleading, but you are right, it definitely needs to be taken in the proper perspective. a shining example is if you look at the penguins individual +/-, you will find very few minuses. that only makes common sense, since they didn't lose many games. : until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice : time per game and some measure of its "quality" (i.e., is the player put out : in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game; is he matched up : against the other team's top one or two lines; short-handed, etc), i would : much rather see the +/- disappear altogether instead of having its dubious : merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications. unfortunately, you will need to keep a ridiculous number of stats to really come up with a statistic which really shows a player's value. let's just enjoy the game and not overanalyze it. (like i'm doing now, excuse me!) tom huot huot@cray.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54201">
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 here's one from the mill. the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal. given what labour relations and puck has been like, it would be a sigh of this way w4e can can both elements!! well, dave, i would have to disagree with you there. satan himself could own the team, and i'd be happy as long as the oilers stayed in edmonton. selfish, but true. i don't want to see the oilers move, no matter who their owner is. bart, bart@splunge.uucp or barto@nait.ab.ca i too am of the same sentiment bart, but realistically, this town doesn't want to pay for quality player and hence we are loosing these people left, right and center. labour is also responsible for their boycott pocklington movement. i would like the oilers to stay, but realistically, given this situation, it's bye-bye oilers. dave shariff yadallee (b. sc.(econ/math) (u of alberta 1990) ) ( yadalle@amisk.cs.ualberta.ca) god save the queen, god bless us all!remember! jesus saves lives from eternal damnation! newfoundland, keep good old clyde, vote liberal! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54204">
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 charles achkar) says: it was nice to see espn show game 1 between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out. instead of showing another baseball game, they decided on the stanley cup playoffs. a classy move by espn. it was a classy move. but it looks like espn is going to devote most of the coverage to the pens. on tuesday night, they continued to broadcast the pen-devil game even though pittsburgh had the game well in control. granted they did show some "bonus" coverage of the caps and isles but they cut away from the close game, which went into double ot, to update us on the fifth goal of the rout. thursday was a good game even if it was the second straight game between the pens and devils. imho they should program some variety into the telecasts.(yes i know the game shown on saturday is between the b's and sabres, probably throwing a bone to us bruin fans.) and what about the cambell conference? i'd like to see a game in the norris or smythe. why not have back to back nights of national hockey night? just a thought. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54205">
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 player team gp g a pts +/- pim m.lemieux pit 3 4 2 6 2 0 francis pit 3 1 5 6 5 4 oates bos 3 0 6 6 1 2 yzerman det 2 3 2 5 3 0 coffey det 2 0 5 5 1 0 d.hunter was 3 5 0 5 -4 10 mogilny buf 3 4 1 5 3 4 thomas nyi 3 2 3 5 6 0 lapointe que 3 1 4 5 2 2 johansson was 3 0 5 5 -1 4 carson la 2 4 0 4 0 2 brown stl 2 1 3 4 1 2 fleury cal 2 1 3 4 0 19 g.courtnall van 2 1 3 4 3 2 flatley nyi 2 0 4 4 3 2 macinnis cal 2 0 4 4 -1 4 ferraro nyi 3 3 1 4 2 2 mceachern pit 3 3 1 4 4 8 neely bos 3 3 1 4 1 4 turgeon nyi 3 3 1 4 5 0 bellows mon 3 2 2 4 0 0 jagr pit 3 2 2 4 3 0 khmylev buf 3 2 2 4 3 0 khristich was 3 2 2 4 0 2 hawerchuk buf 3 1 3 4 0 2 hogue nyi 3 1 3 4 3 2 juneau bos 3 1 3 4 0 6 k.stevens pit 3 1 3 4 1 6 l.murphy pit 3 1 3 4 2 0 lafontaine buf 3 1 3 4 2 0 ramsey pit 3 0 4 4 3 4 smehlik buf 3 0 4 4 4 2 noonan chi 2 3 0 3 0 0 gilmour tor 2 2 1 3 -1 12 hull stl 2 2 1 3 0 0 otto cal 2 2 1 3 2 2 reichel cal 2 2 1 3 0 0 bure van 2 1 2 3 2 0 drake det 2 1 2 3 2 0 linden van 2 1 2 3 4 2 nieuwendyk cal 2 1 2 3 -1 2 roberts cal 2 0 3 3 -2 4 young que 3 3 0 3 3 0 b.sweeney buf 3 2 1 3 2 4 s.stevens nj 3 2 1 3 -2 4 tocchet pit 3 2 1 3 0 2 carpenter was 3 1 2 3 0 6 j.mullen pit 3 1 2 3 2 2 ronning van 2 2 0 2 4 0 suter cal 2 2 0 2 0 4 yawney cal 2 2 0 2 3 4 adams van 2 1 1 2 2 0 chiasson det 2 1 1 2 -1 4 craven van 2 1 1 2 2 2 cullen tor 2 1 1 2 -1 0 dahlquist cal 2 1 1 2 2 4 king win 2 1 1 2 2 2 racine det 2 1 1 2 6 14 rychel la 2 1 1 2 1 19 shanahan stl 2 1 1 2 0 4 sheppard det 2 1 1 2 2 0 sydor la 2 1 1 2 0 4 barnes win 2 0 2 2 1 2 emerson stl 2 0 2 2 0 0 gill tor 2 0 2 2 -2 0 granato la 2 0 2 2 1 4 gretzky la 2 0 2 2 -3 0 housley win 2 0 2 2 -2 0 janney stl 2 0 2 2 0 0 king nyi 2 0 2 2 4 6 kozlov det 2 0 2 2 1 2 sandstrom la 2 0 2 2 -4 4 shuchuk la 2 0 2 2 -1 2 vaske nyi 2 0 2 2 1 0 damphousse mon 3 1 1 2 0 0 elynuik was 3 1 1 2 -1 0 guerin nj 3 1 1 2 0 4 hannan buf 3 1 1 2 2 8 holik nj 3 1 1 2 1 4 muller mon 3 1 1 2 0 0 sakic que 3 1 1 2 0 0 semak nj 3 1 1 2 -2 0 sundin que 3 1 1 2 1 2 taglianetti pit 3 1 1 2 3 6 tipett pit 3 1 1 2 -1 6 barasso pit 3 0 2 2 0 2 bondra was 3 0 2 2 1 0 carney buf 3 0 2 2 3 4 cavallini was 3 0 2 2 0 2 desjardins mon 3 0 2 2 0 0 duchesne que 3 0 2 2 1 2 niedermayer nj 3 0 2 2 -1 2 ricci que 3 0 2 2 3 2 ridley was 3 0 2 2 -1 0 u.samuelsson pit 3 0 2 2 4 6 blake la 1 0 1 1 2 0 borschevsky tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 zelepukin nj 1 0 1 1 -2 0 b.mullen nyi 2 1 0 1 -2 0 burr det 2 1 0 1 -1 2 domi win 2 1 0 1 2 4 fedorov det 2 1 0 1 2 2 felsner stl 2 1 0 1 1 0 howe det 2 1 0 1 4 2 huddy la 2 1 0 1 1 0 kurri la 2 1 0 1 -2 2 lefebvre tor 2 1 0 1 0 12 lidstrom det 2 1 0 1 -1 0 lowry stl 2 1 0 1 1 2 mcsorley la 2 1 0 1 -3 12 millen la 2 1 0 1 2 4 mironov tor 2 1 0 1 -1 2 numminen win 2 1 0 1 -2 0 paslawski cal 2 1 0 1 -1 0 steen win 2 1 0 1 -4 0 ysebaert det 2 1 0 1 0 0 anderson tor 2 0 1 1 -2 2 berube cal 2 0 1 1 1 15 chelios chi 2 0 1 1 -1 2 ciccarelli det 2 0 1 1 1 14 clark tor 2 0 1 1 0 6 dahl cal 2 0 1 1 2 6 dipietro mon 2 0 1 1 0 0 donnelly la 2 0 1 1 1 2 ellett tor 2 0 1 1 -3 0 gallant det 2 0 1 1 1 4 k.brown chi 2 0 1 1 1 0 kennedy det 2 0 1 1 1 0 larmer chi 2 0 1 1 0 0 matteau chi 2 0 1 1 -1 2 mclean van 2 0 1 1 0 0 mcrae stl 2 0 1 1 1 2 murzyn van 2 0 1 1 2 0 musil cal 2 0 1 1 0 5 pearson tor 2 0 1 1 -1 21 primeau det 2 0 1 1 1 20 probert det 2 0 1 1 0 6 ranheim cal 2 0 1 1 2 0 robitaille la 2 0 1 1 -4 2 roenick chi 2 0 1 1 -1 0 selanne win 2 0 1 1 -2 0 shannon win 2 0 1 1 4 0 skrudland cal 2 0 1 1 2 10 sutter chi 2 0 1 1 -1 0 taylor la 2 0 1 1 1 0 zhitnik la 2 0 1 1 -2 2 barr nj 3 1 0 1 0 6 bourque bos 3 1 0 1 -2 2 burridge was 3 1 0 1 -2 0 dionne mon 3 1 0 1 0 0 heinze bos 3 1 0 1 0 0 leschyshyn que 3 1 0 1 1 4 presley buf 3 1 0 1 0 0 rucinsky que 3 1 0 1 1 2 smolinski bos 3 1 0 1 -1 2 wood buf 3 1 0 1 -1 4 brunet mon 3 0 1 1 0 0 daniels pit 3 0 1 1 1 0 donato bos 3 0 1 1 -5 0 driver nj 3 0 1 1 -3 4 gusarov que 3 0 1 1 2 0 houlder buf 3 0 1 1 0 0 k.samuelsson pit 3 0 1 1 2 0 kamensky que 3 0 1 1 1 4 krygier was 3 0 1 1 0 4 loney pit 3 0 1 1 2 0 may was 3 0 1 1 1 2 miller was 3 0 1 1 -3 0 odelein mon 3 0 1 1 0 0 pivonka was 3 0 1 1 -1 0 shaw bos 3 0 1 1 -2 4 straka pit 3 0 1 1 0 0 belanger mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 chorske nj 1 0 0 0 0 0 druce win 1 0 0 0 0 0 eagles win 1 0 0 0 0 0 errey buf 1 0 0 0 0 4 ewen mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 foligno tor 1 0 0 0 0 16 goulet chi 1 0 0 0 0 0 grimson chi 1 0 0 0 0 2 hughes bos 1 0 0 0 0 2 kovalenko que 1 0 0 0 0 2 leeman mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 mcllwain tor 1 0 0 0 -2 0 osbourne tor 1 0 0 0 -1 2 richer nj 1 0 0 0 -4 0 roberge mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 schneider mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 watters la 1 0 0 0 1 4 weimer bos 1 0 0 0 -1 4 andreychuk tor 2 0 0 0 -2 2 ashton cal 2 0 0 0 -1 2 babych van 2 0 0 0 2 2 baron stl 2 0 0 0 0 6 bassen stl 2 0 0 0 0 4 baumgartner tor 2 0 0 0 0 0 bautin win 2 0 0 0 -2 2 belfour chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 berg tor 2 0 0 0 -1 4 billington nj 2 0 0 0 0 0 blue bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 borsato win 2 0 0 0 -2 0 bozon stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 butcher stl 2 0 0 0 2 0 cheveldae det 2 0 0 0 0 2 conacher la 2 0 0 0 2 0 corkum buf 2 0 0 0 0 0 diduck van 2 0 0 0 2 2 dirk van 2 0 0 0 0 2 erickson win 2 0 0 0 -1 0 essensa win 2 0 0 0 0 2 gilbert chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 graham chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 hardy la 2 0 0 0 -1 10 hedican stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 hrudey la 2 0 0 0 0 0 j.lemieux chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 johansson cal 2 0 0 0 -1 0 joseph stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 kasatonov nj 2 0 0 0 -2 0 kennedy win 2 0 0 0 0 0 konstantinov det 2 0 0 0 1 4 krushelnyski tor 2 0 0 0 -2 0 lidster van 2 0 0 0 0 0 lumme van 2 0 0 0 2 4 macoun tor 2 0 0 0 -1 6 marchment chi 2 0 0 0 1 6 miller stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 momesso van 2 0 0 0 -1 2 moog bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 muni chi 2 0 0 0 -1 0 murphy chi 2 0 0 0 -1 4 murray chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 nedved van 2 0 0 0 -2 2 olausson win 2 0 0 0 -1 2 pearson que 2 0 0 0 0 0 potvin tor 2 0 0 0 0 6 quintal stl 2 0 0 0 -1 0 ramage mon 2 0 0 0 0 0 ri.sutter stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 rouse tor 2 0 0 0 -2 0 russell chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 ruuttu chi 2 0 0 0 1 0 s.richer bos 2 0 0 0 -1 0 s.smith chi 2 0 0 0 -2 4 sandlak van 2 0 0 0 -2 0 semenov van 2 0 0 0 0 0 stern cal 2 0 0 0 -1 26 t.hunter van 2 0 0 0 0 2 t.sweeney bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 terreri nj 2 0 0 0 0 0 tkachuk win 2 0 0 0 -3 10 ulanov win 2 0 0 0 -1 4 valk van 2 0 0 0 0 2 vernon cal 2 0 0 0 0 2 wilson stl 2 0 0 0 0 4 zezel tor 2 0 0 0 -2 2 zhamnov win 2 0 0 0 -1 0 zombo stl 2 0 0 0 -1 4 albelin nj 3 0 0 0 -1 0 anderson was 3 0 0 0 -1 0 audette buf 3 0 0 0 -1 4 bodger buf 3 0 0 0 3 0 brisebois mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 c.lemieux nj 3 0 0 0 -4 17 carbonneau mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 cavallini que 3 0 0 0 0 0 cote was 3 0 0 0 -3 0 d.sweeney bos 3 0 0 0 -2 4 daigneault mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 dalgarno nyi 3 0 0 0 -3 0 daneyko nj 3 0 0 0 -1 2 douris bos 3 0 0 0 -3 0 fetisov nj 3 0 0 0 -5 0 finn que 3 0 0 0 -1 0 fitzgerald nyi 3 0 0 0 0 0 foote que 3 0 0 0 1 0 fuhr buf 3 0 0 0 0 2 g.roberts bos 3 0 0 0 -1 4 haller mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 hatcher was 3 0 0 0 -1 2 healy nyi 3 0 0 0 0 0 hextall que 3 0 0 0 0 0 hough que 3 0 0 0 0 0 iafrate was 3 0 0 0 -2 0 jennings pit 3 0 0 0 0 4 jones was 3 0 0 0 -2 5 kasparaitis nyi 3 0 0 0 0 4 keane mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 kimble bos 3 0 0 0 0 0 krupp nyi 3 0 0 0 2 2 kvartalnov bos 3 0 0 0 0 2 leclair mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 leach bos 3 0 0 0 0 0 lebeau mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 ledyard buf 3 0 0 0 -3 4 loiselle nyi 3 0 0 0 -1 2 maclean nj 3 0 0 0 -4 4 malakov nyi 3 0 0 0 1 2 may buf 3 0 0 0 0 4 mckay nj 3 0 0 0 0 16 nicholls nj 3 0 0 0 -4 4 nolan que 3 0 0 0 1 2 norton nyi 3 0 0 0 3 0 patterson buf 3 0 0 0 -1 2 pilon nyi 3 0 0 0 1 22 poulin bos 3 0 0 0 -4 0 roy mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 savard mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 simon que 3 0 0 0 -1 2 stapleton pit 3 0 0 0 1 0 stastny nj 3 0 0 0 -1 2 sutton buf 3 0 0 0 2 0 t.green nyi 3 0 0 0 -3 0 tabaracci was 3 0 0 0 0 4 vukota nyi 3 0 0 0 -1 2 wesley bos 3 0 0 0 1 0 wolanin que 3 0 0 0 1 4 - maurice richard - 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54206">
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 i've been a loyal ticket holder, since day 1 (literally) in spring of '90 when the team was announced. and i'm not getting that loyalty well, so are we, and we see it completely different than you. guess it's a matter of perspective. chuq "imho" von rospach, esd support & training (dal/aux) =+= chuq@apple.com member, sfwa =+= editor, otherrealms =+= genie: mac.bigot =+= alink:chuq minor league fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (san jose giants: a/1/9) san francisco giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (the stick?not!) san jose sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (new seat: 127/tbd) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54207">
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 4/23/93 blues shutout hawks again, lead series 3-0 it was a great atmosphere last night at the st. louis arena as joseph and the blues shutout the hawks for the second consecutive game. people were cheering the blues long before face-off time, and they kept going for the entire game. my friends and i went out celebrating until the early morning hours with some of the players. here's a game summary from the st. louis post-disptach. enjoy... by dave luecking of the post-dispatch staff: at 10:24 p.m. friday night, the arena crowd of 17,965 paid homage to blues goalie curtis joseph. the fans began bowing, their arms extended, taking the the lead from a fan who held a sign that read ``only god saves more than joseph." it was a fitting tribute to joseph, who has brought the blues to the verge of a surprising sweep. joseph recorded his second successive shutout friday, blanking the blackhawks 3-0 in game 3 of the norris division semifinals and giving the blues a 3-0 lead in the best-of-seven series. the blackhawks haven't scored against joseph since the 8:51 mark of the second period of game 1. joseph has shut out the blackhawks for 151 minutes 9 seconds, a blues record. jacques plante held the previous record of 146:28, set in the first round of the 1969 playoffs against the philadelphia flyers, one of only two series the blues have sweeped in their history. the blues can wrap up their first sweep since 1969 with a victory in game 4, a nationally televised game that begins at noon sunday. the blues have had only two sweeps in franchise history, both in 1969, when they swept philadelphia and los angeles en route to the stanley cup finals. the shutout friday was easier than on wednesday in game 2 when joseph had to make 47 saves. this time, the blues held the shots down to 34, and the blackhawks couldn't touch joseph. well, they touched joseph, numerous times, shoving him and pushing him at every opportunity to try to get him off his game. but joseph and the blues were unfazed, dishing out their own punishment along the way. the blues' grinders -- bob bassen, rich sutter, kevin miller and dave lowry -- wore down the blackhawks, taking the visitors from chicago off their game. the grinders set the stage for the glamour boys, the gifted playmakers and scorers, who made the most of their opportunities. craig janney, brett hull and nelson emerson scored, getting one goal in each period. hull assisted on janney's first-period power play goal after two unwise chicago penalties. checker miller set up hull's goal in the second period, and rookie denny felsner assisted for emerson, who scored at 16:44 of the final blues fans jumped to their feet in celebration of that goal and began yelling ``sweep. sweep. sweep." they also taunted chicago goalie ed belfour ``bell-four. bell-four." they also chanted ``na, na-na-na, hey-hey good bye." such talk is a tad premature. there's still one game left, but the blues are on a roll. they have the blackhawks on their heels. the blues set the tone early on friday with two crunching hits in the first minute of play. rich sutter leveled bryan marchment, and brendan shanahan dumped steve smith at center ice. chicago tried to retaliate, but troy murray's decision to run into joseph backfired. referee dan marouelli gave him a roughing penalty. the blues didn't get a shot on goal on the power play, and they survived a scare after chicago killed the penalty when rick zombo gave the puck away to steve larmer. joseph stopped larmer's shot and everything else chicago threw at him in the first period. the 'hawks ignored the scouting report on joseph about shooting high and continued to shoot low, where joseph's butterfly style is deadly. rookie bret hedican picked up three consecutive penalties midway through the period -- two for hooking and one for holding -- but chicago got only two shots on goal, as many as miller. the blues' penalty killer twice stole the puck and just missed on good scoring chances against belfour. marouelli began calling penalties on the blackhawks to even things up. he caught brent sutter hooking shanahan four seconds after hedican's third penalty. he called marchment for elbowing janney along the boards at 14:58, and gave the blues a two-man advantage 1:07 later when christian ruuttu slashed shanahan. the blues worked around the puck on the ensuing power play, and hull got it where he likes it -- in the high slot. hull's shot hit belfour's right shoulder, and the puck bounced precariously close to the goal line. belfour dived back to cover, but the puck squirted loose to janney, who poked it into the net at 16:53 for his first goal of the playoffs. the blues continued their relentless hitting as the period ended, and the blackhawks lost their composure. joe murphy tripped ron wilson with two seconds remaining in the period, and after time had expired smith upset the blues by shooting the puck into the blues' bench. chris chelios made a move toward joseph as the teams left the ice, and marouelli slapped him with a 10-minute misconduct. chicago survived the blues' power play, but the loss of chelios hurt. he didn't return until the midway point of the period, and within three minutes of his return, hull had increased the blues' lead to 2-0, deflecting in miller's crisp pass. try as they might, the blackhawks couldn't get to joseph, who stopped everything they could throw at him. he stopped 12 shots in the second period and 13 more in the third. chicago also hit the goalpost twice. emerson's goal put the game away. he went hard to the net and redirected felsner's pass. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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 here are the results after three days of voting. remember 3pts for 1st, 2 for 2nd, and 1 for 3rd. also, you can still turn in votes! and.. if the guy isn't a regular goalie or he is retired, please include the team! thanks for your time, and keep on sending in those votes! player team pts votes 1. brian hayward san jose 15 6 andy moog boston 15 6 3. curtis joseph st. louis 11 5 4. ed belfour chicago 10 5 5. gerry cheevers boston (retired) 5 3 manon rheaume atlanta (ihl) 5 2 ron hextall quebec 5 2 8. don beaupre washington 4 2 others receiving 1 vote: artus irbe (sj), tim cheveldae (det), clint malarchuck (buf/sd,ihl), grant fuhr (buf), rick wamsley (tor,ret), jon casey (minn), john vanbiesbrouck (nyr), ken dryden (mon,ret), bob essensa (win), mike vernon (cal), glenn healy (nyi), tommy soderstron (???), ray leblanc (usa). c'mon, tommy soderstrom is having a fine rookie (i think he's a rookie) season with the flyers. i'm sure most of you knew that already, but just in case. john p. jfp001@acad.drake.edu a longtime, but realistic ranger fan who's willing to admit that the rangers sucked big-time this year. they don't even deserve the luxury of a nice golf course with a warm breeze. god, talk about underachievers! mike keenan - we're waiting for you! go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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 and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other team captain trivia would be appreciated. brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the 1989-90 season. this was during the off-season though. there's countless examples of captains being traded, i'm sure. yeah... i think that the flames and the flyers traded captains once... mel bridgeman for brad marsh. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54225">
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 the problem espn2 faces is the tci-cablevision connection in the merger of their prime and sportschannel networks. prime sportschannel will try to wrestle away nhl from espn in the off-season. also, tci and cablevision have control a large number of cable systems around the country with a total of 15 million subscribers. tci-cablevision will do their best that espn2 never gets off the ground successfully. and the nhl's value will suddenly skyrocket in this cable war between prime sc and espn. nhl is more vital to the survival of a regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have no national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl/nba/mlb sports teams. note that this ominous prospect is fueled by the fact that various sc and prime outlets are wholly or partly owned by local nhl owners. when/if cablevision vp chuck dolan's purchase of the islanders goes through, the islanders will be back solidly in the scny fold (their original owners were, and they've remained due to a lucrative tv contract). the flyer snyders own the philadelphia sc as well as the prism pay channel. there are six teams affiliated with regional sc's, another half dozen affiliated with prime outlets, and other locals like hts and nesn who have barter arrangements. with all this cross-ownership, i was surprised that espn got the deal this season!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54227">
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 nhl playoff results for games played 23 april 1993: conference semi-finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nyi (leads 2-1) mon tor la was que (leads 2-1) det (leads 2-1) cal (tied 2-1) o.k. people, so it's not tied. i meant leads 2-1........ shoot me if you john p. curcio go bruins! philips laboratories jpc@philabs.philips.com 345 scarborough road (914) 945-6442 briarcliff manor, ny 10510 
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 someone asked about the rosters for the college hockey senior all-star shrine game held in orono, maine earlier this month: derek plante minn-duluth (west mvp of the game) greg johnson n dakota bryan smolinski mich st fred knipscheer st cloud state chris campbell wisconsin-superior glenn lang uw-superior chris bergeron miami joe cook miami jamie erb bemidiji brett harkins bowling green david roberts michigan todd trettier uw-stevens point john young mich tech brett hauer minn-duluth pat neaton michigan barry richter wisconsin mike smith lssu chris valicevic st mary's shaun gravistin ak-anchorage (goalie) tom newman minnesota " bryan schoen denver " ron mason mich st (coach) steve nelson uw-superior " jim knapp minn-duluth " jack duffy yale chris foy n'eastern scott meehan mass-lowell aaron miller vermont kevin o'sullivan bu chris potter connecticut ray alcindor middlebury greg carvel st lawrence bob cowan providence steve dubinksy clarkson dan gravelle merrimack ryan hughes cornell mark kauffman yale matt mallgrave harvard chris mcgee babson scott mcnair rit jim montgomery maine david sacco bu chris rogles clarkson (goalie) (east's mvp of the game) garth snow maine " grant wood hamilton " brian durocher brown (coach) shawn walsh maine " bruce marshalll connecticut " these are the original rosters. there may have been a few changes for the actual game (guys not being able to participate or whatever). + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54230">
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 - i heard a story on the local sports news broadcast in edmonton. - oiler owner peter pocklington will be holding a press conference - next week. while the exact details are not known, it is believed - to concern the oiler's future. - rumour has it that pocklington signed a tentative lease arrangement - with copps collesium in hamilton. during the press conference, - pocklington may announce the deal. it is quite possible that - the deal may simply be a way to force edmonton northlands to - renegotiate the oiler lease on the stadium. - northlands has offered to buy the oilers for $65 million earlier, - but the offer was rejected immediately by pocklington. - as for me, my opinion is divided... edmonton has been fairly - supportive of the oilers. even though they're a small market - team, they had many sellouts in the 80s. even with the problems - that the team had this year, they still brought in more fans - than many teams in larger cities did. on the other hand, if - the team does move, there is no place more deserving than - hamilton. of course, how would that affect the grand - realignment scheme of bettman? following up on this, the provincial government has been asked by the opposition to block any deal that pocklington is offering to hamilton. the government said that pock is going nowhere! why don't i believe the government? wasn't it pocklington who wanted to be tory leader 9 years ago? dave shariff yadallee (b. sc.(econ/math) (u of alberta 1990) ) (yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca) god save the queen, god bless us all!remember! jesus saves lives from eternal damnation! newfoundland, keep good old clyde, vote liberal! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54231">
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 full 1993 calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps *=if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1: springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2: springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3: providence 3 springfield 2 gm 4: providence 9 springfield 0 gm 5: springfield 4 providence 2 gm 6: 4/24 providence at springfield gm 7: 4/27 springfield at providence * cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1: adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2: adirondack 5 cdi 3 gm 3: adirondack 3 cdi 0 gm 4: adirondack 3 cdi 1 (adirondack wins series, 4-0) baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm 1: baltimore 4 binghamton 3 gm 2: binghamton 6 baltimore 2 gm 3: binghamton 8 baltimore 3 gm 4: 4/24 binghamton at baltimore gm 5: 4/26 baltimore at binghamton gm 6: 4/28 binghmaton at baltimore * gm 7: 4/30 baltimore at binghamton * utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1: utica 3 rochester 2 (ot) gm 2: rochester 9 utica 3 gm 3: rochester 6 utica 4 gm 4: rochester 4 utica 3 (ot) gm 5: 4/24 utica at rochester gm 6: 4/26 rochester at utica * gm 7: 4/28 utica at rochester * moncton hawks vs st john's maple leafs gm 1: st john's 4 moncton 2 (at halifax) gm 2: st john's 3 moncton 2 (at halifax) gm 3: st john's 6 moncton 5 gm 4: moncton 5 st john's 4 (ot) gm 5: 4/26 moncton vs st john's at halifax gm 6: 4/28 st john's at moncton * gm 7: 4/30 moncton vs st john's at halifax * cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1: fredericton 4 cape breton 3 (2ot) gm 2: cape breton 5 fredericton 2 gm 3: cape breton 3 fredericton 0 gm 4: cape breton 6 fredericton 5 (ot) gm 5: 4/24 cape breton at fredericton gm 6: 4/26 fredericton at cape breton * gm 7: 4/28 cape breton at fredericton * (note about this series: the ap reports that cb has won this series 4-1, but in the original schedule, game 5 wasn't supposed to be until tonight and i only have the oilers as being up 3-1) + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54233">
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 "they're real and they're spectacular", the blues shutout the blackhawks in consecutive playoff games. if the blues sweep the hawks on sunday, i will launch a broom onto the ice in the last seconds of the game. "not that there's anything wrong with that." curtis joseph has been the "master of his own domain", and the hawks have been shooting the puck like a bunch of "chuckers". not even "superman" could play any better in goal. joseph must have been eating his "cereal." "it's like a sauna in here" said a spectator about the hot atmosphere and the wild crowd at the arena. it was "very refreshing" to see the blues "double-dip" the hawks. the hawks goons tried to "pick" on hull, janney, and joseph but the blues checking line "nipped" those hawks real well. the fat "yoyoma" will sing on sunday, and the hawks will head to the "beach". the hawks' trip back to chicago will feel like a long "journey from milan to minsk" enjoy sunday's game with some junior mints and wash them down with a snapple. just a little fun. * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54242">
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 well, i will have to change the scoring on my playoff pool. unfortunately i don't have time right now, but i will certainly post the new scoring rules by tomorrow. does it matter? no, you'll enter anyway!!! good! keith keller let's go rangers!!!!! let's go quakers!!!!! kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu ivy league champs!!!! "when i want your opinion, i'll give it to you." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54244">
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 apparently, the public workers' strike in st john's, newfoundland is over. the strike has, since mid-january, forced the st john's maple leafs hockey team to play their home games in other cities such as toronto, cornwall and charlottetown. they have been playing their playoff home games in halifax, nova scotia. leafs' management said that they could return to st john's for the second round. + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54245">
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 have you ever noticed that after a hockey player has been interviewed in between periods on a tv game. that they usually get a goal or an assist. can you explain this or is it that they usually talk to stars more than regular players which explains the hight percentage of results after. just wondering how everybody else thinks about this or if they dont care about this trivial nonsense. ttyl tom tom moffat victoria b.c. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54249">
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 well, we're almost halfway through the first round, and so far things are good in general: 1. the 2 teams that i hate most: chicago and "basten" are down 3 zip. (even though there is a possibility either can still win their series, yet this ego-thrashing and arrogance-smashing by the underdogs (st. louis and buffalo) is so rewarding). 2. montreal is at this stage in a team's life where they are not good enough to go all the way, yet too good to be able to get some (really) good draft picks... :-( 3. is it just me, or does anyone out there also think that this year the cup final should be played between 2 teams from the wales? 4. is it just because they're playing montreal that i find the diques arrogant ***'s, or are they really? 5. smythe-what???? i'm really getting sick of seeing douggie and wendel night in and night out... we should see some canucks/jets/flames action...! 6. don cherry is an ******* alright, but hey... so are our politicians... obleafsjoke: q. what do you get when you cross a maple leaf and a a. six more weeks of crummy hockey! l8r, dudes... go habs gooooooooooooooooooo! jon shaib ac291@carleton.freenet.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54254">
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 in case anyone missed it, i'm reposting this and i'm also selling some other i would like to sell a few of my hockey cards sets: 1990-91 upperdeck hockey low #'s sets $45 this is the first upperdeck hockey set made. important rookie cards in it are: mogilny, roenick, belfour, recchi, stevens, jagr, nolan, nedved, ricci, sundin, modano, richter and others! the beckett price is $42, but i'm charging $45 to cover the shipping and packaging. i've sold one, but i still have 2 left for sale. i also realize that $45 is alot of money, especially if you don't normally collect cards. so if enough people are interested, i'll break up the set into team sets. i'm not sure how much for each. it would be nice to just sell them for $3 each, but then the people who get the whalers and devils (note, i'm not bagging on these teams its just that they don't have alot of good rookie cards in this set) would be subsidizing the people who want chicago or pittsburgh. so i'll have to make it varialble pricing. but most of them should be about $2 or $3 dollars. 1991-92 score pinnacle (candian) sets $45 this is a very nice set, premium quality cards. has second year cards of the players above, plus bure, potvin, falloon, and lindros ($15 value) second year cards,and the following rookie cards: lidstrom kamensky, zelepukin, roussel, konstantinov. beckett price is $50, but i have alot of these. 1991-92 upperdeck czechoslovakian set $60 this is a 100 card set of the 92 world junior tournament. meant for sale in czechoslovakia, but didn't sell well there, and some of it filtere back in to the us. the cards are bilingual. has lachance, kovalev, and straka rookies. if your interested, please e-mail me. thanks ok someone asked for this one, but he's from canada, if he can get me the money in us funds then its his, if not, the first person who writes in will be the alternate. also i would like to sell 2 upperdeck pavel bure rookie cards (note these are not in the ud low #'s set mentioned above). $16 each. they are $15 in the book, but the $1 goes for postage, packaging and insurance. and if there is something you want that you don't see, e-mail me, i may have it or may be able to get it for you. the owl ted formeza formeza@sun.panix.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54257">
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 buffalo is up 2-0 is the series with boston, and the reason....grant fuhr ? fuhr is playoff hungry, and he's proving once again why they call him money goaltender. fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore (statistically at least), but he's proving that he can make the big save at the right time. the leafs should have kept fuhr, and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit. but again.......where was andreychoke in game 1? i applauded the sabres for making the deal to get fuhr, specifically because i thought it would help them win at least one playoff series. however, i don't think the leafs can be faulted either...there is nothing to say that felix won't be winning playoff series by himself in years to come. anyway, does anybody else find it ironic that fuhr is up against moog? (or at least he was until a guy named alex showed up....:-) ) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54258">
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 i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don't play, i would like to tune in other games. does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl here are the ones i can remember offhand: kdka 1020 am pittsburgh penguins lori, the regular penguins poster here on rec.sport.hockey, indicated to me via e-mail that on the nights that pirates baseball and penguins playoff games coincide, the pens will be covered on wdve fm (102.5). wabc 770 am new jersey devils wbbm 780 am chicago blackhawks wjm (?) 720 am detroit redwings this is wjr in detroit and it's 760 am. however, as i neglected to mention in my earlier response to this thread, on the nights when the tigers baseball games coincide with the wings' playoff games, the wings will be carried on wllz fm (98.7). 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54259">
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 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg! (oh guess what the score is now 7-0 penguins! switch games you $%&*#@!!!) and guess which game espn is showing in my area on thursday - yep, pens-devils. there are so many other interesting series, who cares about mario??? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54260">
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 borchevsky is 5'9" and gilmour is 5'11"...i think gilmour slightly outweighs borchevsky. andreychuk is also about 5'11", i think. teeheehee...oops! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54261">
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 espn (through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game) showed the red wings/toronto game... cool. but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt/nj on tuesday and bos/buff on thursday. i raced home from work early (4:30 pacific) to catch the game, but alas, it was the boston/buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt/nj game on thursday. overnight they changed their mind. what the hell are u talking about? espn showed pens/devils game as advertised. but the morons at espn should know that pens will kick devils ass and the game will be boring. i'd rather see boston/buffalo game which seems to be an exciting series since noone had expected buffalo to get past the first well let's hope they change their mind on thu's game and show some other game. the pens series is really getting boring. i want to see some exciting game no matter who wins. if nhl wants a major network contract then they better put some brains in espn people. ** ___ ____ ____ ____ ____ ** ** ** / / / /___/ /___/ /___/ ** experience is what makes a person ** ** /___ /___/ /___/ / \_ / / ** make new mistakes instead of old ** ** ** one. ** ** e-mail: cobra@chopin.udel.edu ** ** 
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 here's a summary of don cherry's coach's corner from april 21, 1993. the game being broadcast in my region was la and calgary, although i think it was filmed during the toronto-detroit game that night. (warning... anti-fighting people may want to skip this post.) don's tie, grant fuhr, penalties, wings vs leafs, fighting, dale hunter. episode summary this episode began with the camera zoomed in on don's tie. don was pointing out the characters on the tie... bugs bunny, foghorn leghorn, and yosemite sam (who don called lanny macdonald.) ron maclean began by mentioning that don was almost evicted from a hotel where he was watching the previous night's games, because of all the yelling and cheering he was doing over the play of hunter and fuhr. don began to praise fuhr, calling him the "greatest goalie", and said that he's winning the series against boston all by himself. he then showed clips from earlier episodes (nov. 14, jan. 16) when fuhr was still with the leafs, and don advised "don't trade fuhr!" don went on to predict that if buffalo gets by boston, it would be fuhr who wins the series. muckler took a lot of heat for the trade, but don feels muckler's been vindicated. the next topic involved how playoff games are being ruined by too many penalty calls. he showed a clip from a winnipeg-vancouver game, where domi hit a vancouver player, and was given a 2 min. penalty. ron said that it was called a penalty because his stick was involved, but don stuck with the opinion that it was a good hit, with domi hitting the vancouver player with his shoulder. don: "its sad what they're doing for hockey... a 5 minute penalty for a nosebleed." next, they went to the playoff series between detroit and toronto. people in detroit were calling wendel clarke "wendy" for not fighting. however, don pointed out that probert was not fighting either. this lead don into a tirad about fighting and stickwork, and how banning fighting leads to more high sticking: "it's like college hockey... the little wee guy with the visor is brave as anybody. that's why you're seeing so much stickwork. because they know you won't drop your gloves and give them a shot. the rules are made by people who don't know what's going on in hockey". the final topic don discussed was dale hunter. don pointed out that he was leading the league in goals, and showed a clip of hunter from a previous game. when he was younger, hunter was taught to "play to win", which differs from today's idea of just letting kids have fun. at then end of the episode, they showed a clip from a coach's corner, with the tape on fast forward, so that don sounded like one of the chipmunks. typical anti-fighting posturing, not too much humour, but some good quotes. i'd give it a 7.0 out of 10. \ \ |allan sullivan (allan@cs.ualberta.ca) \ \ |department of computing science, \ \_______ |university of alberta, edmonton, alberta, canada. \ ### \ _ |--------------------------------------------------- \___###___\ (_) |my opinions are mine and mine alone. "it is amazing how much can be accomplished if no one cares who gets the credit..." - u. of a. golden bears hockey motto (c. drake) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54263">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54263" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 here's a summary of don cherry's coach's corner from april 23, 1993. it was taken from a tape delay of a vancouver-winnipeg game, but it was filmed during the toronto-detroit game that night. i think it was also shown during the calgary-la game. (warning... anti-fighting people may want to skip this post.) don's tie, doug gilmour, wings/leafs, quebec/montreal, boston/buffalo, wendel clark, fighting and stickwork. episode summary once again, the episode started with a shot of don's tie... this was a different tie than last time. don pointed out some of the characters on the tie, but gave them different names... felix the cat (sylverster), maclean (daffy duck), etc. ron maclean asked don what he thought of the current wings-leafs game. don thought it was good. burns told the leaf players "they won in their building, we're going to win in ours". don then began to praise gilmour again. don pointed out that gilmour has never got less than 2 points or a goal in any game since he got 5 points in a game against st. louis. (don also claims that he gave a lot of encouragement to gilmour, which was partly responsible for his good play.) several clips were then shown of gilmour from the series... a hit on constantinov, and a pass to andrewchuk resulting in a goal. on the game itself, the wings were taking a lot of penalties in the first period. the wings have enough talent to score short handed however, and when the leafs get a power play, coach burns tells the leaf players "don't let them score on you". ron brought up the previous quebec-montreal game. [note: montreal won that game in overtime, despite having a possible game winner disqualified because it was batted in with a high stick.] don thought the high stick was obvious, even without the use of instant replay. on the buffalo-boston series [note: buffalo is currently winning the series 3-0], don gave full credit to goaltender grant fuhr. fuhr should be getting 1/2 the team's playoff checks for his wendel clarke has recently been criticized for his performance during the detroit-toronto series. don defended him, by saying that he can't play the way he should, because of the league's new rules. "this used to be a rough and tough league... now its all hack and slash." don lays the blame on gil stien for the don's opinions on fighting and stickwork are shared by wings gm and coach bryan murray. a clip from a news conference by murray was shown, in which murray made statements claiming the elimination of fighting increases stickwork. don also read a newspaper article in which murray makes the following statements: "players don't fight because they're afraid of getting thrown out of the game as instigator. instead, they settle grudges by getting their sticks and slicing each other. is this what the fans want to see? i guarantee there wouldn't be as many slashes if fighting were kept in the game." don warned league commisioner gary bettman to "smarten up" with fighting in hockey. he went on to say that before, there used to be one guy cut with a high stick in a series. now, with no fights, someone gets cut every period. typical anti-fighting posturing, but here don's opinion is supported by murray. i'd give it a 7.0 out of 10. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54273">
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 i believe the nhl draft is on or the june 18th weekend. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54284">
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 i am an ulf (and pgh) fan, and what pisses me off about the whole adam graves/ ulf samuesson debate is that ulf plays hard-hitting hockey (nothing wrong with that) while graves does what he does when the only way to win a game is to intentionally hurt someone (which bites!). jeesus... i never thought i'd see the day when i defended a ranger.... you obviously don't watch much hockey if you think that graves is a goon. he is one of the hardest working rangers (check that-- the hardest working ranger). he had 36 goals this year (not bad for a checking type of player), and showed up for every single game this season (unlike that stiff messier). he is fearless, and throws clean checks. he will also stand up to someone after he hits them, not like that pussy oaf. exactly my point. if you'd watch games more closely, you'd see a lot of goons going after him. ulf is one of the main reasons why less physical players for pgh are left alone. ulf plays rough hockey, but only when other players are putting the rush on mario or jagr. if you want to say anyone on the penguins is a cheap shot or a goon, say it's jennings or caufield. don'tslander a good defenseman because your favorite players can't beat the pens even when they take dives (like gartner) to try for the cheap penalties. as for his slash of lemieux, fine. it was a cheap shot. it is the exception, not the rule. i bet you think mike gartner is a goon because of the time that he slashed the hell out of oaf's arm last year, right? after all, he did get a suspension for it... hey, that's fine! if a player does something stupid, he should be penalized including ulf. or mario (you're not likely to see that happen) or anyone else for that matter. it's pointless to say any one person is a cheap-shot goon, because you'll see everyone take a cheap shot now and then, especially if you'resomeone who is shadowed as much as ulf is. john p. curcio go bruins! philips laboratories jpc@philabs.philips.com 345 scarborough road (914) 945-6442 briarcliff manor, ny 10510 ********************************************************************************tim drozinski drozinst@db.erau.edu "chew electric death, snarling cur!" spaceman spiff 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54287">
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 the way he does, does not belong in the nhl. there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game, but a lot of them have been talanted players. bobby clarke, kenny linsemen, pie mckenzie, chris chelios etc.. but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf. violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like (should have been a women) samuelson don't belong. when players like ulf, who's main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue, and the league won't stop it, the players should. a christian pro 1000 aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely. if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future, you can bet neely will have his day. the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is, is worth almost as much as a stanely cup. this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game. if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup, the penguins would not even notice he's gone. he's an eyesore on the game of hockey. rich, pull your head out of your ass. joseph stiehm as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf's head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey. how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it, with your back-assward mentality? saying that hurting a player will solve anyone's problems is asinine. new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted. right now, too many of the real goons get away with too much, because the ref is watching the play (or supposed to be:i've seen koharski and van hellemond, to name a few, with their heads up their asses on a few calls) rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play. even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties, it would be an ********************************************************************************tim drozinski drozinst@db.erau.edu "chew electric death, snarling cur!" spaceman spiff 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54289">
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 here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft. congratulations to this year's winner, dave wessels of victoria, b.c., who parlayed his initial 1000 points into 1575.9 points! thanks to all 262 teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever! i hope to hear from you all again this september, for the 7th annual draft. usenet hockey draft standings week 28 posn team total pts cash last posn 1. dave wessels 1575.9 1574 1.9 (1) 79. brad gibson 1174.2 1147 27.2 (79) 262. dinamo riga 658.0 603 571.6 (262) an interesting note ... i have absolutely no recollection who was on my team. i picked all my players about 2 weeks before the start of the season, and then never touched the roster again. i got wrapped up in my own "money" pool and decided not to get involved at all with the usenet pool (sorry andrew btw). the only thing i remember about my team is that i had joe sacco and maybe john maclean. maybe francis and kevin stevens as well. out of curiousity i checked the final standings today on r.s.h., only to find to my amazement that with absolutely no input, the initial team still managed to finsh 79th! i'm not sure what that implies for those who finished below me brad gibson brad k. gibson internet: gibson@geop.ubc.ca dept. of geophysics & astronomy #129-2219 main mall phone: (604)822-6722 university of british columbia fax: (604)822-6047 vancouver, british columbia, canada v6t 1z4 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54290">
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 (laurie marshall) says: door attendants at the joe louis arena have been checking fans for octopuses (sp?), as they are not allow in the arena. i want to know where these people are hiding these octopuses. everytime i've been to the joe they checked my purse and that's the only place i can think of putting one. any other wings fans out there know of ways to sneak these octopuses into the joe? you mean they don't strip-search you and do cavity checks!? the fools!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54291">
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 do the isles have another defenseman to insert into the line-up besides pilon??? once again, last night's stupid penalty put the isles in a hole for the remainder of regulation and 2 minutes into overtime!!! even though the isles nearly survived pilon's blunder in regulation, it was the most inopportune time for a 5-minute major penalty. instead of confronting cote as he came across the blueline, pilon backed up and swiped at cote's nose with his stick. al arbour can't be serious to think pilon is the guy to have out there with the game on the line??? i heard scott lachance is out till later in the series, but there must be someone else!!! bring back the bammer, dave langevin!!!! *******************************lets go islanders******************************** john scialdone scialdone@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov """i've been gambling hereabouts, for 10 good solid years""" jg/rh 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54293">
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 yahooooooooo! the habs tied this sucker at 2 and the teams now head for quebec city to play game 5. btw, final score was habs 3-nords 2. the score might be a bit misleading. the habs dominated the game from the 5:00 mark of the first and then on. the score should have been 8-2 if it weren't for some miraculous save from a ron hextall (bastard!). he's the reason the score was as close. habs winning goal was scored by benoit brunet at 1:07 of the 3rd. roy had an ok game. he made the first save (one way or another) and the defense was there to clear any rebounds. this just in, espn radio reports that the bruins lost 6-5 in ot. yahooooooooooo!!! those suckers got what they deserved. life is just great!!!! now if my finals would go just as well! nick (i'll take off my town crier hat now) the czar of mainframe computing <bgk2@musicb.mcgill.ca> mcgill university 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54294">
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 i will also be happy will a good performance. we played ok in vancouver, but much better last night, as the 'big' guys were going for the jets. yep, though my reasons for being relatively quiet are simple...last year i woofed when we went up 3-1 on the canucks...and look where it got me. :) by the way, did domi play last night? i didn't notice him on the ice. domi got tossed in the 2nd with a high-sticking major. he had been playing with kris king and stu barnes...and it was this line that was arguably the best in the first two games. i am very glad to have found some places in champaign, illinois that have satillite dishes to pick up the cbc vancouver feed. and i'm also glad to have found some other hockey fans, some jets and some canucks fans, to watch the game with. definitely a good thing...every little cheer helps, evan. :) good thing the net doesn't need a voice to operate...i won't have one sunday night when i get home, i hope. white noise here we come! ;) one thing, i will say though...vancouver can keep steve armitage and john garrett as a broadcast team...those two are bad, especially when you are spoiled by don wittman. (at least four or five times, steve called barnes selanne. whoops! :) daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54296">
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 like many others i too was watching the caps/isles game when the went to the baseball game. i too was pissed. how could they interupt such an important game. i understand about contracts, but you would think they would have a clause in the contract concerning important games! anyway, us blues (and hawks) fans got shafted worse! while everyone in the u.s. and watched the game on abc. however those of us who live in the central illinois area were subjected to watching the arthritus(?) telethon. the area that was most affected by the telecast did not get to see the game except through hawk vision. this game, had it been televised, would have been the first home hawks game shown in the area since 1980. this television bull*&%$ has got to stop. we are not only being deprived of seeing games, due to skyrocketing ticket prices, but we are also being deprived of watching them on tv. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54300">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54300" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i'm just wondering where all the bruins fans are??? i mean they woofed it up with about 1,000,000 posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone's @#$ in the playoffs and win the stanley cup. while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving, i'm just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting. i mean i haven't even see just one little boston fan post, 'cept for the bruins fans that aren't cocky. well, maybe they're all out on the golf course or something, but i don't know, i'd sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at :-) still here. just doing a little sobbing in our beer so we're to busy to post :-) seriously i think i caught a .sig curse from nelson :-) first the $%@#$%$ rangers and $50 now the b's...... hmmm....how bout dem whalers? (no offense to steveg or others) in hockey hell...............jwodzia@eng.clemson.edu............john r. wodziak the _real_ black and gold |in memorium: #7 alan kulwicki 1954-1993 | space will triumph over those who |a polish yankee mechanical engineer, | for are pretenders to the crown.|1992 winston cup champion & a great person| rent! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54304">
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 -=> quoting cire y. trehguad to all <=- cyt> hey i am in iowa and i do not mind espn showing the pitt/njd games. cyt> at least i get to see the devils...even if they are gettin there ass cyt> kicked perhaps they will score and even win a game or two cyt> go devils i am sorry to tell you this, but i don't think the devils will win a game against pittsburg, the penguins have so many scoring threats that you shut down one and another will kill you it's too bad but i must conclude that the penguins will win their third stanley cup in a row. i hope someone will beat them, but i just cannot see it s t e v e ... backup not found: (a)bort (r)etry (p)anic ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54305">
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 -=> quoting greg rogers to all <=- gr> hi all, gr> due to living in the bay area, i as unable to see vancouver's victory gr> over the jets last night. i know the score, but that rarely describes gr> the game. could someone please post a brief sonapsis (sp?) of waht gr> happened. how well did each team play? were the cannucks deserving of gr> the victory? gr> also, could some kind soul please email me the end of season, gr> individual player stats? gr> greg gr> -- vancouver for the cup (in a virtual reality)-- i am sorry to tell you this greg, but in all reality, we cannot see vancouver winning the cup. they have a rrally good chance to come out of the smythe division, and a chance to make it to the finals, but no one is capable this year of beating the penguins, they have too many scoring threats. i would love to be proven wrong, but i must conclude that the pens will win cup 3 this year. ... mondays are a rotten way to spend a 7th of your life. ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54306">
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 -=> quoting ohandley@betsy.gsfc.nasa. to all <=- oh> from: ohandley@betsy.gsfc.nasa.gov oh> newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey oh> subject: test...please ignore oh> message-id: <1993apr21.180741@betsy.gsfc.nasa.gov> oh> date: wed, 21 apr 1993 22:07:41 gmt oh> reply-to: ohandley@betsy.gsfc.nasa.gov oh> this is a test.....please ignore. oh> ======================================================================= oh> ======== oh> ======================================================================= oh> ======== ok i will ignore this message since it is only a test. wow, montreal just scored to go up 1 - 0 in game 4 of their series, oh sorry i was supposed to ignore this message wasn't i bye for now. ... dont you dare read this tagline!!!!!!! ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54358">
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 disaster! finland was beaten by czech 1-3 (0-0,1-1,0-2). finland will be 4th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday 28th. lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament. briza (goalie) was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team. jarkko #14 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54359">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54359" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 disaster! finland was beaten by czech 1-3 (0-0,1-1,0-2). finland will be 4th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday 28th. lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament. briza (goalie) was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team. in four of the five games finns have played, the goalie has been chosen the best player of the opposing team. (in the fifth, the finnish goalie, ketterer was elected the best finn) has this to do with the goalies having good days in these games, or are the finnish players just lousy scorers??? anyway, quite few goals have been scored in these games in generally (the exception of course being canada vs. italy). it looks like the goalies are getting too good. is this due to their equipment getting bigger, so they cover more (their gloves, e.g. seem to be much bigger now than they were some years ago). anybody know if the rules on goalie equipment has changed this way???? mikko wihervaara jarkko #14 t{m{ on nyt t{mm|nen testi sigun kai piti olla muutamarivinen nyt viel{ pari 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54361">
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 this is an all-point team for the canadian nhlers who are not playoff bound... bill ranford, edmonton sean burke, hartford peter sidorkiewicz, ottawa zarley zalapski, hartford norm maciver, ottawa garry galley, philadelphia greg hawgood, philadelphia dave manson, edmonton mark tinordi, minnesota mark messier, n. y. rangers geoff sanderson, hartford brian bradley, tampa bay rod brind'amour, philadelphia left wings adam graves, n. y. rangers chris kontos, tampa bay patrick poulin, hartford shayne corson, edmonton right wings pat verbeek, hartford russ courtnall, minnesota mike gartner, n. y. rangers kevin dineen, philadelphia go calgary flames! al macinnis for norris! gary roberts for hart and smythe! go edmonton oilers! go for playoffs next year! stay in edmonton! nelson lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu) rec.sport.hockey contact for the san jose sharks 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54364">
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 wayne made his own bed...choosing mcnall over sather and hockey destiny...he should sleep in it instead of whining. ego got absolute nonsense. the decision that was made was pocklington's. he chose 20 mill over gretzky. if gretzky wasn't upset about not being able to win a cup in la then i submit that he wasn't worth the 20 mill. the best of him...he thought the supporting cast in edmonton didn't matter...that he was the show himself. how do you know what he thinks (or thought)? the only "thought" that i can see that you have revealed is your own. you don't like gretzky. big deal. now, my only complaint about lemieux is that he dives too much... but last year patrick convinced him twice to accept bowman and hockey destiny, rather than his ego. the real purpose of diving is not merely an attempt to draw a penalty. what the player is trying to do is make the checkers keep their distance so the ref won't be fooled. i can't imagine why anyone would expect someone like lemieux to change his game. why don't you pick on 1 dimensional over-rated type like hull and salami. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54365">
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 ahl playoff scores-- first round (home team in caps) games played on tues, 4/20 rochester 6 utica 4 fredericton at cape breton series stati (plural of status? :) adirondack leads cdi, 3-0 providence tied w/springfield, 2-2 binghamton tied w/baltimore, 1-1 rochester leads utica, 2-1 st john's leads moncton, 2-0 cape breton tied w/fredericton, 1-1 + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54367">
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 i am sure some bashers of pens fans are pretty confused about the lack of any kind of posts about the recent pens massacre of the devils. actually, i am bit puzzled too and a bit relieved. however, i am going to put an end to non-pittsburghers' relief with a bit of praise for the pens. man, they are killing those devils worse than i thought. jagr just showed you why he is much better than his regular season stats. he is also a lot fo fun to watch in the playoffs. bowman should let jagr have a lot of fun in the next couple of games since the pens are going to beat the pulp out of jersey anyway. i was very disappointed not to see the islanders lose the final regular season game. pens rule!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54478">
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 here are the standings after game 2 of each of the divisional semi-final usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn 1. sneddon scorers 77 25 (1) 2. arctic circles 75 25 (75) northern lights 75 25 (33) threepeat 75 25 (19) 5. fighting amish 74 25 (161) team elvis 74 25 (11) 7. chris roney 73 25 (33) myers marauders 73 25 (--) the dead ducks 73 25 (11) 10. les poteux 72 25 (--) sludge 72 25 (75) paige faults 72 25 (33) sam & his dogs 72 25 (33) the borg 72 25 (2) hurricane andrew 72 25 (4) lewey's lakers 72 25 (102) einstien's punk band 72 25 (9) 18. homesick hawaiian 71 25 (4) test department 71 25 (11) samuel lau (calgary, alberta) 71 25 (127) mopar muscle men 71 25 (33) jerky boys 71 24 (4) gb flyers 71 25 (19) 24. neural netters 70 25 (102) give you money monday 70 25 (9) bill mcgreer 70 25 (--) fugazi 70 25 (33) detroit homeboy 70 25 (11) bloom county all-stars 70 25 (54) dehradun maawalis 70 25 (75) 31. great expectations 69 25 (4) purdue ricks pens 69 25 (19) 33. frank's little wankers 68 25 (33) jan stein 68 25 (33) allez les blues 68 25 (--) goaldingers 68 25 (75) suds 68 25 (19) weenies 68 25 (33) a.p. bury 68 25 (19) bruce's rented mules 68 25 (4) 41. mind sweepers 67 25 (33) mike burger 67 25 (11) go flames 67 25 (--) garryola 67 25 (33) the mulberry maulers 67 25 (75) lippe 67 25 (102) flamming senators 67 25 (19) big bay bombers 67 25 (102) milton keynes kings 67 25 (33) 50. seppo kemppainen 66 25 (19) freddy beach rockets 66 25 (--) the campi machine 66 25 (19) j's rock'em sock'ems 66 25 (75) sean forbes 66 25 (19) tapio repo 66 25 (11) zachmans wingers 66 25 (19) zipper heads 66 25 (11) canadian gladiators 66 25 (75) 59. teem kanada 65 25 (33) new zealand leafs 65 25 (54) tiger chung lees 65 25 (54) rangers of destiny 65 25 (33) make beliefs 65 25 (54) dave wessels 65 25 (2) norway killerwhales 65 25 (54) 66. force 25 64 25 (75) trevor's triumph 64 25 (75) commitments 64 25 (141) skate or die 64 25 (19) dog's hog's 64 25 (33) delaware destroyers 64 25 (33) craig team 64 25 (11) rangers blow 64 25 (54) debbie bowles 64 25 (19) mak paranjape 64 25 (141) comfortably numb 64 25 (127) loaded weapons 64 25 (54) rob del mundo 64 25 (54) robarts research rebels 64 25 (54) fuzzfaces galore 64 25 (19) houdini's magicians 64 25 (54) la coupe stainless 64 25 (141) 83. cluster buster 63 25 (33) lets go pandas 63 25 (102) tequila shooters 63 25 (141) steves superstars 63 25 (102) reksa fans of oulu 63 25 (127) habs playing golf 63 25 (75) chris stevens 63 25 (--) on thin ice 63 25 (102) oakville brothers 63 25 (33) jason team 63 25 (102) smithw 63 25 (102) 94. anson mak 62 25 (173) skriko wolves 62 25 (102) all the kane's men 62 25 (75) danielle leblanc 62 25 (127) team awesome 62 25 (19) weasels 62 25 (141) alf's all-stars 62 25 (75) zippety doodah 62 25 (75) kramer george and jerry 62 25 (75) rev's rebels 62 25 (75) yan loke 62 25 (75) lamp lighters 62 25 (102) littlest giants 62 25 (75) mr creosote 62 25 (75) 108. oceanweavers 61 25 (161) great scott 61 25 (141) bobby schmautz fan club 61 25 (127) icemachine 61 25 (102) hat trick mike 61 25 (--) the promise land 61 25 (33) daves knee jerk picks 61 25 (102) doug bowles 61 25 (102) holsteins sfb 61 25 (54) lemon pepper grizzly bears 61 25 (54) flying pigs 61 25 (127) les raisins 61 25 (102) reneb 61 25 (102) gilles carmel 61 25 (102) 122. boops bets 60 25 (127) timo ojala 60 25 (127) rednecks from hockey hell 60 25 (33) gee man 60 25 (127) frack attack 60 25 (54) triple x 60 25 (127) ulfie's 16 brothers 60 25 (--) buffalo soldiers 60 25 (54) shigella 60 25 (102) ottawa bearcats 60 25 (127) whiters 60 25 (141) monica loke 60 25 (102) lance hill the boston bruins fa 60 25 (33) 135. mann mariners 59 24 (141) new jersey rob 59 25 (102) frasses faceplants 59 25 (141) doug mraz 59 25 (102) muller n walker 59 25 (54) high stickers 59 25 (141) legzryx 59 25 (161) beer makes me an expert 59 25 (75) gail hiebert 59 25 (127) dean martin 59 25 (161) 145. marcs maulers 58 25 (127) brians bloodletters 58 25 (75) van isle colonists 58 25 (141) charlie cook 58 25 (--) bjorkloven 58 25 (54) schott shooters 58 25 (102) bjoern leaguen 58 25 (75) the eradicators 58 25 (141) lord stanley's favourites 58 25 (141) but wait theres more 58 25 (127) stacey ross 58 25 (141) 156. heikki salmi 57 25 (54) the ice kickers 57 25 (75) chapman chaps 57 25 (161) the ^&#@$#$% rangers of 1940 57 25 (54) the underwriters 57 25 (54) beam team 57 25 (176) dave hiebert 57 25 (75) canuck force 57 25 (176) evan pritchard 57 25 (161) controversy warriors 57 25 (54) jfz dream team 57 25 (141) 167. san jose mahi mahi 56 25 (141) go go gagit 56 25 (161) goddess of fermentation 56 25 (54) bure's blur 56 25 (141) louisiana psycho killers 56 25 (141) east city jokers 56 25 (102) tampere salami 56 25 (176) joe's a crak head 56 25 (102) grant marven 56 25 (75) mark and steve dreaming again 56 25 (75) pens dynasty 56 25 (161) 178. chip n dale 55 25 (189) 179. cherry bombers 54 25 (161) brian bergman 54 25 (189) the goobmeister 54 25 (75) oz 54 25 (141) arm & hammer 54 25 (161) gax goons 54 25 (176) daryl turner 54 25 (102) 186. e.i.s 53 25 (141) bosse 53 25 (75) myllypuro hedgehogs 53 25 (161) chapman sticks 53 25 (176) hillside raiders 53 25 (185) knights on a power play 53 25 (173) 192. eldoret elephants 52 25 (185) sparky's select 52 25 (176) sluggo's hosers 52 25 (173) butt ends 52 25 (176) 196. lisa's luggers 51 25 (197) stanias stars 51 25 (161) 198. ken de cruyenaere 49 25 (176) 199. gary shiff 48 25 (--) 200. jukurit 47 25 (176) 201. montys nords 45 25 (192) jane's world 45 25 (185) rolaids required 45 25 (189) martin's gag 45 25 (194) 205. equipe du jour 44 25 (196) 206. arsenal maple leafs 41 18 (194) the alarmers 41 25 (185) 208. killer kings 38 25 (192) andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54479">
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 curtis joseph and ray leblanc have made some big moves in the poll recently. hextall has shown some strong movement as well. kirk mclean and tom barrasso (i can't see why) have been added to the list recently. keep sending in those votes. current votes for favorite goalie masks (3pts - 1st, 2pts - 2nd, 1pt - 3rd) player team pts votes 1. ed belfour chicago 32 15 curtis joseph st. louis 32 13 3. andy moog boston 30 13 4. brian hayward san jose 26 10 5. ron hextall quebec 16 8 6. grant fuhr buffalo 12 5 7. gerry cheevers boston (retired) 11 6 8. john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers 10 4 9. ray leblanc usa olympic 7 3 10. mike richter ny rangers 6 3 11. manon rheaume atlanta (ihl) 5 2 12. don beaupre washington 4 2 ken dryden montreal (retired) 4 2 others receiving less than 4pts: mike vernon (cal), clint malarchuk (buf/sd,ihl), tommy soderstrom (phil), tom barrasso (pit), artus irbe (sj), tim cheveldae (det), sean burke (nj), rick wamsley (tor,ret), jon casey (minn), bob essensa (win), glenn healy (nyi), tony espo (chi), gilles gratton (bos), rod stauber (la), gump worsley (mtl/nyr), pat jablonski (tb), grant fuhr (tor), felix potvin (tor), stephane beauregard (win), mark fitzpatrick (nyi), chico resch (nyi), kirk mclean (van) go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54509">
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 stanley cup playoff stats through games played sunday, april 25 1993 top 20 point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 9 0 9 0 0 0 0 4 can bos c 12 adam oates 2 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 3 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 3 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 can pit c 66 mario lemieux 3 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 can cal rw 14 theoren fleury 3 7 2 5 1 0 0 0 12 can tor c 93 doug gilmour 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 can det d 77 paul coffey 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 usa buf c 16 pat lafontaine 9 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 can nyi c 20 ray ferraro 9 6 3 3 0 0 1 0 2 rus van rw 10 pavel bure 9 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 0 rus buf lw 13 yuri khmylev 9 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 6 can van rw 16 trevor linden 9 6 2 4 1 0 0 0 2 can buf c 10 dale hawerchuk 9 6 2 4 1 0 2 0 0 usa stl c 15 craig janney 9 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 can bos c 49 *joe juneau 9 6 2 4 0 0 0 1 6 can cal c 25 joe nieuwendyk 9 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 can stl d 21 jeff brown 9 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 can pit c 10 ron francis top 10 goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 2 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 2 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 can was c 32 dale hunter 4 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 can pit c 66 mario lemieux 4 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 can nyi c 20 ray ferraro 4 5 4 1 0 0 1 0 6 can tor lw 14 dave andreychuk 4 5 4 1 1 0 0 0 4 can bos rw 8 cam neely 4 4 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 usa la c 12 jimmy carson 4 4 4 0 0 0 2 0 0 usa que rw 48 scott young top 10 assist scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 9 0 9 0 0 0 0 4 can bos c 12 adam oates 2 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 can det d 77 paul coffey 2 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 usa buf c 16 pat lafontaine 4 7 2 5 1 0 0 0 12 can tor c 93 doug gilmour 4 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 can stl d 21 jeff brown 4 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 can pit c 10 ron francis 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 usa win d 6 phil housley 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 4 swe was d 6 calle johansson 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 8 can cal d 2 al macinnis top 10 power-play goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 2 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 can was c 32 dale hunter 3 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 can cal rw 14 theoren fleury 3 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 3 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 can bos c 49 *joe juneau 3 5 2 3 2 0 0 0 6 can stl lw 19 brendan shanahan 3 4 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 usa la c 12 jimmy carson 3 4 2 2 2 0 0 0 2 tch cal c 26 robert reichel 3 4 3 1 2 0 1 0 2 fin win rw 13 *teemu selanne 3 3 2 1 2 0 1 0 6 can mon lw 25 vincent damphousse all the short-handed goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 can cal rw 14 theoren fleury 1 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 can pit c 66 mario lemieux 1 4 3 1 0 1 1 0 4 usa cal c 29 joel otto 1 4 2 2 0 1 0 0 6 usa cal d 20 gary suter 1 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 23 rus det c 91 sergei fedorov 1 2 1 1 0 1 0 0 10 can bos c 19 dave poulin 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 4 can win c 38 luciano borsato 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 can det lw 11 shawn burr 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 can stl lw 10 dave lowry 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 usa buf rw 18 wayne presley top 10 game-winning goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 1 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 can nyi c 20 ray ferraro 1 6 2 4 1 0 2 0 0 usa stl c 15 craig janney 1 4 4 0 0 0 2 0 0 usa que rw 48 scott young 5 6 3 3 0 0 1 0 2 rus van rw 10 pavel bure 5 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 can pit c 10 ron francis 5 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 0 rus buf lw 13 yuri khmylev 5 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 6 can van rw 16 trevor linden 5 5 4 1 0 0 1 0 6 can tor lw 14 dave andreychuk 5 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 can was c 32 dale hunter top 5 point scoring defensemen rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 can det d 77 paul coffey 9 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 can stl d 21 jeff brown 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 usa win d 6 phil housley 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 4 swe was d 6 calle johansson 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 8 can cal d 2 al macinnis top 4 rookie point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 9 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 can bos c 49 *joe juneau 33 4 3 1 0 0 1 0 8 usa pit c 15 *shawn mceachern 33 4 3 1 2 0 1 0 2 fin win rw 13 *teemu selanne 33 4 0 4 0 0 0 0 2 tch buf d 42 *richard smehlik top 5 penalty minute leaders rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps # player 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 26 can det lw 55 keith primeau 2 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 23 rus det c 91 sergei fedorov 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22 can nyi d 47 richard pilon 4 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 21 can tor rw 12 rob pearson 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 21 can win rw 20 tie domi * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54511">
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 blues playoff scoring through end of norris semifinals ps # name gp g a pts. +/- pim pp sh gw en rw 16 brett hull 4 5 3 8 +2 0 4 0 2 0 c 15 craig janney 4 2 4 6 +1 0 1 0 2 0 d 21 jeff brown 4 1 5 6 +1 4 0 0 0 0 lw 19 brendan shanahan 4 2 3 5 0 6 2 0 0 0 c 7 nelson emerson 4 1 2 3 +1 2 0 0 0 0 rw 9 *denny felsner 4 1 1 2 +2 2 0 0 0 0 lw 10 dave lowry 4 1 0 1 +2 2 0 1 0 0 lw 17 basil mcrae 4 0 1 1 +1 2 0 0 0 0 lw 14 kevin miller 4 0 1 1 -1 2 0 0 0 0 rw 23 rich sutter 4 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 c 28 bob bassen 4 0 0 0 -1 6 0 0 0 0 lw 36 *philippe bozon 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 c 18 ron wilson 4 0 0 0 -2 4 0 0 0 0 d 5 garth butcher 4 0 0 0 +1 2 0 0 0 0 d 33 stephane quintal 4 0 0 0 +1 0 0 0 0 0 d 44 *bret hedican 4 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 0 d 34 murray baron 4 0 0 0 -1 8 0 0 0 0 d 4 rick zombo 4 0 0 0 -1 10 0 0 0 0 g 31 curtis joseph 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 d 6 doug crossman 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 c 22 ron sutter 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 rw 38 *igor korolev 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 rw 39 kelly chase 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 d 2 curt giles 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 g 29 *guy hebert 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 * rookie gp min. ga avg. w l en so sa save% 31 curtis joseph 4 251 6 1.43 4 0 0 2 140 .957 29 *guy hebert 0 00 0 0.00 0 0 0 0 00 --- team totals 4 251 6 1.43 4 0 0 2 140 .957 so -- shutouts ; sa -- shots against. goals 13 6 1st period 4 1 2nd period 3 4 3rd period 5 1 overtime 1 0 power-play goals 7/29 1/24 short-handed goals 1 0 empty-net goals 0 0 shots 97 140 * __ ______________ ____________________________________ % % \ \_)____________/ a l l e z l e s b l u e s ! ! ! * * \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % % \ ________/ * * \ _______/ joe ashkar % % \ \ contact for the blues * * \ \ saint louis jca2@cec1.wustl.edu % % (___) blues * 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54512">
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 1993 world championships in germany: group a results: sweden - switzerland 4-6 (0-3,3-1,1-2) 1st: swi 0-1 manuele celio 1 3:21 swi 0-2 patrick howald 1 11:37 swi 0-3 patrick howald 2 (sven leuenberger) 16:00 2nd: swe 1-3 peter andersson 1 (michael nylander) 2:47 (pp) swi 1-4 roman waeger 1 (martin rauch,sven leuenberger) 8:53 (pp) swe 2-4 jonas bergqvist 3 (markus naslund) 9:08 swe 3-4 jan larsson 1 (patrik juhlin) 18:50 3rd: swe 4-4 mikael renberg 2 (thomas rundqvist,peter andersson) 7:49 swi 4-5 roman waeger 2 9:07 swi 4-6 felix hollenstein 1 (sven leuenberger,thomas vrabec) 11:29 shots on goal: penalties: attendance: referee: sweden 5 20 18 - 43 4*2min 6,000 rob hearn, usa switzerland 10 6 7 - 23 5*2min switzerland beat sweden in a wc for the first time since 1950, and the swiss now have a small chance of reaching the quarterfinals (if austria beats italy tonight). the swiss took the lead after hakan ahlund made an incredibly stupid drop pass at his own blue line, and celio came in alone with soderstrom and beat tommy to the stick side. the swedes continued to make mistakes as howald was allowed to skate in between the swedish d and put the puck past tommy to make it 0-2. 0-3 was a nice one, howald entered the swedish zone, slammed on the breaks, and his shot went in by tommy's far post. one of the lousiest periods i've seen sweden play this year. second period saw a new swedish team, and the swiss had to ice the puck many times. on a pp, nylander skated in from the boards, pavoni made the initial save, but peter andersson scored on the rebound. then a power play goal from the swiss, a slap shot from the blue line hit two players on the way to the goal and past soderstrom also. jonas bergqvist made it 2-4 after a nice pass from naslund behind the goal. jan larsson reduced the lead to 3-4 just before the end of 2nd period, on a pp skated in unattacked in front of the goal, and put the puck through pavoni's 5-hole. third period, sweden equalized on a slap shot from renberg that trickled through pavoni's 5-hole. then, another defensive mistake by the swedes, waeger was allowed to skate around the swedish goal unattacked and from close range could make it 4-5. hollenstein then scored 4-6 on a 2-on-1 break away, and put it top shelf with no chance for soderstrom. switzerland: goaltender: 20 reto pavoni (28 renatio tosio) defense: 26 rick tschumi, 2 martin steinegger 16 sven leuenberger, 5 martin rauch 7 sandro bertaggia, 17 patrick sutter 31 samuel balmer forwards: 22 alfred luthi, 11 felix hollenstein, 25 roman waeger 23 gil montandon, 12 roberto triulzi, 10 patrick howald 35 christian weber, 18 andreas ton, 24 joerg eberle 15 bruno erni, 13 thomas vrabec, 29 manuele celio russia - canada 1-3 (0-2,1-1,0-0) 1st: can 0-1 kevin dineen 1 (garry galley) 4:28 can 0-2 paul kariya 2 (eric lindros) 12:20 (pp) 2nd: can 0-3 eric lindros 10 (paul kariya,shayne corson) 9:40 rus 1-3 valeri karpov 2 (?) 16:24 3rd: penalties: rus 2*2min 1*5min, can 5*2min referee: anton danko, czech republic attendance: 8,600 russia probably made their best game of the tourney, but yet there wasn't enough to win against the effective canadians. galley took a slap shot that found dineen by the far post, and dineen just deflected the puck past trefilov in the russian goal. then a power play goal, after a couple of deflections eric lindros found kariya alone by the far post, and kariya put the puck high over a sliding trefilov. russia won the shots in the first period 12-5, and they had the most of the scoring opportunities, but they just couldn't score. second period saw lindros scoring his 10th (!!) goal of the wc. kariya entered the russian zone, slammed on the break to get past his defenseman, then made a nice pass to corson who just got the stick on the puck to deflect it to lindros who one-timed the puck. the russians then finally got their goal, karpov broke in from the side and made a slap shot in tugnutt's top right hand corner. player of the game in canada was voted paul kariya, and for russia valeri karpov. i agree, the difference in this game was lindros and kariya, and in part also tugnutt. kariya had a far better game now than vs the swedes, and he was very impressive. kariya got the place in the line with lindros after mike gartner went out with a rib-injury early in the first period. lindros, btw, lead the point scoring with 14 pts (9+5) before this game, 7 pts ahead of the next player! i.e. double as much as the next player (among those kariya with 1+6). amazing! group b results: finland - czech republic 1-3 (0-0,1-1,0-2) 1st: 2nd: cze 0-1 petr hrbek 2 11:04 fin 1-1 mika alatalo 1 17:51 3rd: cze 1-2 jiri dolezal 3 5:04 cze 1-3 martin hostak 2 19:45 (en) penalties: fin 8*2min, cze 9*2min referee: vincent moreno, switzerland attendance: 4,300 germany - usa 6-3 (5-0,0-0,1-3) 1st: ger 1-0 raimond hilger 2 7:12 ger 2-0 gerd truntschka 3 11:16 ger 3-0 ernst kopf 3 11:55 ger 4-0 michael rumrich 3 16:06 ger 5-0 benoit doucet 1 18:45 2nd: 3rd: usa 5-1 derek plante 1 4:06 ger 6-1 dieter hegen 5 6:57 usa 6-2 craig johnson 1 7:30 usa 6-3 rob gaudreau 3 13:07 penalties: ger 7*2min, usa 10*2min referee: valeri bokarev, russia attendance: 11,000 ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54518">
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 again i assume this is not just flame bait by roger, but actually a truly held opinion. i would say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that i belong to. and i don't share those views. and i don't believe that the majority of posters on r.s.hockey share those views. and so i have no intention of allowing them to simply "go ahead" without making my feelings on the subject clear. thanks. for speaking for all those who didn't feel it was important enough to say something themselves. i wouldn't say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that you belong to. it represents a subset (that you don't belong to) of a larger group (which you do, if only because this isn't a moderated group). look, there are several ways to state an opposing viewpoint. three that come to mind are as follows: 1) say it subtly. result: it may not be clear. 2) say it directly yet politely. result: probably it will spark some interesting conversation. 3) say it directly and obnoxiously. result: validity goes right out the window. i would agree that unwarranted use of said term is entirely immature. you realize that anything you say can, and most certainly will, be used against you. paul w. francisco in the shadow an angel cries... catcher@netcom.com - front line assembly 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54522">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54522" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i *don't* think the sharks should dig into the free agent market. most of the "good" free agents will require quite a bit of compensation, and set the sharks back as far as player development goes; remember, the sharks were unwilling to give up player(s) in addition to the $2 million they offered for joe murphy, and i think that's a good approach. they tried to sign sergei makarov before this season because makarov wouldn't have required compensation. matching the makarov offer was the only real mistake dave king has made this year. i have to wonder about the intelligence of signing a 33-year old who is obviously on the downside of his career to a 4-year $2 million contract. risebrough matched the offer on king's request and makarov has spent the last quarter of the season in the press box because his work ethic just plain stinks. not to mention that he's lost a step and can no longer get himself into position to make the nifty passes. i think makarov will be available for free this offseason to anybody who agrees to pay his contract. he's ineffective in calgary, but he might be able to help a team like san jose, with their shortage of talent. if there's no takers, and makarov doesn't show improvement in training camp, i think the flames will just bite the bullet and buy out makarov's contract and release him. with his current attitude, he is a detriment to the team. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54524">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54524" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i for one am happy about the ranger's hiring of keenan. it's too bad that they didn't hire him when smith fired nielsen, maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs. what this team needs is a fire under their butts!! reading through most of these hockey news i don't see many ranger fans i'm new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering(1940) fan. but remember suffering builds character!! i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that dreadful stretch. 1. knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline, why didn't we see mike hurlbut, who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first 2. why????!!!!! is joe kocur playing every night? he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play. 3. how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of season. at least he plays with some heart and character, draws penalties and plays 110% when he's on the ice. was he in the doghouse for some 4. joe cirella?????!!!! enough said! ranger fans may be suffering but we're some of the most loyal, unlike fans who only show up when the team wins. as far as the stanley cup goes i think there's only one team that can pittsburgh and that's detroit. this would be the most entertaining and fought series. mario is amazing! i think joe kocus should play every night. he is a big physical guy, and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits. (both checks and fists) its a big advantage to get the crowd going. plus, he helps protect the other players. notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it. i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen, only to go slinking away when kocur steps in. i think he is big asset, but should be third line, and special situation only play. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54527">
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 okay... here's some gripe"ing" (?griping?... whatever). (i live in santa barbara... for reference... i think) okay, abc showed the kings/flames... fine... yawn. espn (through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game) showed the red wings/toronto game... cool. but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt/nj on tuesday and bos/buff on thursday. i raced home from work early (4:30 pacific) to catch the game, but alas, it was the boston/buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt/nj game on thursday. overnight they changed their mind. [rest deleted] espn never committed (and i never saw advertised) to a particular thursday game. they had originally scheduled bos-buf, and that was somehow leaked on this net, but to my knowledge espn never publicly released a schedule until monday when they announced pitt-nj thursday and boston-buffalo saturday. -tom galvin galvint@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54529">
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 vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation, apparently. i have my respect for the power of the hockey gods is preventing me from commenting on the above, and for commenting on whether the guy damphousse was traded for is on vacation or not. perhaps roger (demonstrably in contempt of the hockey gods and paying for it) dares a comment or two? mike eisler, mre@eng.sun.com ``not only are they [leafs] the best team, but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh's. their players are mighty bright, too. i mean, he really *was* going to get his wallet back, right?'' jan brittenson 3/93, on leaf/pen woofers in rec.sport.hockey 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54530">
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 <ww1a+@andrew.cmu.edu> says: you know, i never really appreciated them before! looks like bob errey's ring really sparkles in that locker room, and everyone else wants one, too! :-) correct me if i'm wrong though, (just through no, fuhr's 5 rings out sparkle errey's. and doesn't bob have 2 rings? mike eisler, mre@eng.sun.com ``not only are they [leafs] the best team, but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh's. their players are mighty bright, too. i mean, he really *was* going to get his wallet back, right?'' jan brittenson 3/93, on leaf/pen woofers in rec.sport.hockey 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54531">
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 bruins have never come back to win after falling behind 2-0 in their entire 68-year history. which doesn't mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the 5-game playoff format. but, yes, it looks dark for the b's. what a still, i think the problem is mental. they needed the saves blue came up with, perhaps he can offer something to mentally rally around. who do you think gets the start in game three? i hope it is going to be blue. if the team can rally around him, maybe moog can too. -- jan brittenson bson@gnu.ai.mit.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54533">
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 flames final score: calgary 9 - l.a. 4 things are back to where they belong. gretzky didn't play. kelly hrudey is his old self again. let's hope the flames put the old-timers away asap. - vlad the impaler yes, these last couple of months the kinngs have failed to show up in about one game in five. presumably last night was that one game in five. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54534">
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 of course, ferreira had also traded a number of veterans with marginal contributions before he was fired, so it's not clear that this would have been different. besides, they *were* marginal contributors. let's also not forget that ferreira came *this* close to trading kelly kisio, which, if the rumors i've heard are true, was over the strong objections of other aspects of shark management and probably had a lot to do with both his ouster and the three-headed, consensus oriented gm. imagine, for a second, where the sharks would be today if that fax machine hadn't jammed. on the other hand, i'm hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made. imagine indeed, but then again we have the benefit of let's say that in the view of the sharks' upper management, the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra. i'm inclined to take exactly the opposite view: they should have kept him...he's obviously the luckiest man in hockey! (wonder what sacrifice he made to the muse of fax? (his job, i guess.)) have fun richard stueven aha# 22584 |----------| he has erected a multitude of new internet: gak@wrs.com |----go----| offices, and sent hither swarms attmail: ...!attmail!gakhaus!gak |---sharx--| of officers to harass our people, cow palace: 107/h/3-4 |----------| and eat out their substance. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54535">
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 who should get the hart? gretzky, not in a million years. at least not this year. he hasn't played all year. yzerman, though it would be nice, i don't think he'll get it, he's consistent, but not well known. (thought he should be!) mario. jesus no! it's bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off. they guy's a luber i think he should become a stuntman after he retires. jeez, he ha s enough expericene falling down. oope! stick didn't come anywhe re near me, gotta fall, got to get a penalty against the other team! it's the annual "whine-a-thon" with today's host, jerry lewis by the way, i am canadian, play a little, and watched hockey night in canada, (never missed a show!), not one of these, well, a, my home team is in the finals, and i was a hockey fan for ten minutes now... give me a f--king break with this mario is the best player ever. what! did gretzky die? i wish bobby clarke and the broadstreet bullies were still around, they'd know what to do with a whouse like mario! they'd bounce him around like the puck. not that i condone violence, but i'll make an exception for mario. but if mario is going to complain about being hit, someone should give him and scotty something real to complain about. sorry to ramble. as you can see i hate mario. pat walker you, along with mario lemieux, must be from another planet. the only difference is that lemieux comes from the one with geo. washington, abe lincoln (and many other great men and women of this world) whereas you come from the one with david koresh. yeah, mario is good at drawing penalties, but wouldn't you try do something (you do claim to play) to give your team an advantage? i don't remember lemieux getting any diving penalties this year, whereas many others did. finally, mario has never complained about being hit. he knows it's part of the game; he gets back by dishing out an even bigger hit to the same guy or just scoring a few goals (or setting them up.) don't you have any compassion for a man who has gone through so much in his life? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54537">
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 that's not inner calm. it's boredom, and it's being spoiled. the arena's been as quiet as a church on many nights this year; too many of us just take winning for granted. it's been seemingly forever since the team lost, and we've forgotten what it's like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory. i don't really agree with this. but it is an entirely different "high," at any rate. the first cup the pens won, i didn't think about anything else; i just watched mario and all skate the thing around the ice. now it seems to be more of a question whether or not, thirty years from now, young hockey fans (may there be millions!) will still ask us what it was like to watch this team. that's what they are playing for now. but i was still as nervous as ever when the devils were blasting shots at barrasso in the final seconds of game three, so the fun is far from over i'm not bored either. most people i know say that winning the second cup was better than the first but to me nothing will ever top that first one. but i'm every bit as excited this year and i am experiencing that inner calm to which susan originally referred. inner calm is not boredom. as far as the arena in general being boring, well richard's got that right. it's been that way all season. i attribute it to a lot of new fans who just don't have the same spirit and knowledge as long-time fans. at last tuesday's game, i overheard a man express surprise that a goaltender can get an anyone who follows sports with regularity knows that anything can happen at any time. i'm confident in the pens but i'm also not stupid enough to think for one minute that it's impossible for new jersey to blow them out of this series. i doubt that will happen but it's possible. bored? uh-uh. spoiled? not in the least. forgot what excitement is like? living through that amazing streak wasn't exciting?! i don't take a darned thing for granted. god, look at chicago... and i see no problem with quietly savoring all of this anyway. it isn't gonna last forever and i intend to enjoy it while i can. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54538">
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 here are the nhl's alltime leaders in goals and points at the end of the 1992-3 season. again, much thanks to joseph achkar. notes: an active player is a player that has scored at least one point the past season. the points leaders follow the goal leaders. if you find any mistakes, please send me email. all time nhl leading goal scorers (* denotes active player): 1. gordie howe det-hfd 801 2. *wayne gretzky edm-la 765 3. marcel dionne det-la-nyr 731 4. phil esposito chi-bos-nyr 717 5. bobby hull chi-wpg-hfd 610 6. *mike gartner wsh-min-nyr 583 7. mike bossy nyi 573 8. guy lafleur mtl-nyr-que 560 9. johnny bucyk det-bos 556 10. maurice richard mtl 544 11. stan mikita chi 541 12. frank mahovlich tor-det-mtl 533 13. *michel goulet que-chi 532 14. *jari kurri edm-la 524 15. bryan trottier nyi-pit 520 16. gilbert perreault buf 512 17. jean beliveau mtl 507 18. lanny mcdonald tor-col-cgy 500 19. jean ratelle nyr-bos 491 20. norm ullman det-tor 490 21. *dino ciccarelli min-wsh-det 485 22. darryl sittler tor-phi-det 484 23. *mario lemieux pit 477 24. *glenn anderson edm-tor 459 25. alex delvecchio det 456 26. *mark messier edm-nyr 452 27. *dale hawerchuk wpg-buf 449 28. rick middleton nyr-bos 448 29. *steve yzerman det 445 30. *peter stastny que-nj 444 31. rick vaive van-tor-chi-buf 441 32. *joe mullen stl-cgy-pit 433 33. yvan cournoyer mtl 428 34. *dave taylor la 427 35. steve shutt mtl-la 424 36. *denis savard chi-mtl 423 37. bill barber phi 420 38. *brian propp phi-bos-min 413 39. gary unger tor-det-stl-atl-la-edm 413 40. rod gilbert nyr 406 41. *steve larmer chi 406 42. *john ogrodnick det-que-nyr 402 other active players: *bernie nicholls la-nyr-edm-nj 397 *pat lafontaine nyi-buf 386 *brian bellows min-mtl 382 *dave andreychuk buf-tor 373 *tim kerr phi-nyr-hfd 370 *bobby smith min-mtl 357 *brett hull cgy-stl 356 *luc robitaille la 353 *mike foligno det-buf-tor 351 *dave christian wpg-wsh-bos-stl-chi 340 *paul coffey edm-pit-la-det 330 *brent sutter nyi-chi 325 *pat verbeek nj-hfd 318 *ron francis hfd-pit 311 *cam neely van-bos 292 *ray bourque bos 291 *bob carpenter wsh-nyr-la-bos-tor 285 *brent ashton van-col-nj-min-que-det-wpg-bos-cgy 284 *doug gilmour stl-cgy-tor 277 *rick tocchet phi-pit 277 *kevin dineen hfd-phi 275 *tomas sandstrom nyr-la 273 *dale hunter que-wsh 269 *ryan walter wsh-mtl-van 264 *brian mullen wpg-nyr-sj-nyi 260 *ed olczyk chi-tor-wpg-nyr 260 *kirk muller nj-mtl 258 *joe nieuwendyk cgy 257 *jimmy carson la-edm-det 254 all time nhl scoring leaders (* denotes active player): 1. *wayne gretzky edm-la 765 1563 2328 2. gordie howe det-hfd 801 1049 1850 3. marcel dionne det-la-nyr 731 1040 1771 4. phil esposito chi-bos-nyr 717 873 1590 5. stan mikita chi 541 926 1467 6. bryan trottier nyi-pit 520 890 1410 7. johnny bucyk det-bos 556 813 1369 8. guy lafleur mtl-nyr-que 560 793 1353 9. gilbert perreault buf 512 814 1326 10. alex delvecchio det 456 825 1281 11. jean ratelle nyr-bos 491 776 1267 12. *mark messier edm-nyr 452 780 1232 13. norm ullman det-tor 490 739 1229 14. *peter stastny que-nj 444 777 1221 15. jean beliveau mtl 507 712 1219 16. *dale hawerchuk wpg-buf 449 763 1212 17. bobby clarke phi 358 852 1210 18. *paul coffey edm-pit-la-det 330 871 1201 19. *denis savard chi-mtl 423 769 1192 20. *jari kurri edm-la 524 666 1190 21. *mario lemieux pit 477 697 1174 22. bobby hull chi-wpg-hfd 610 560 1170 23. bernie federko stl 369 761 1130 24. mike bossy nyi 573 553 1126 25. *michel goulet que-chi 532 590 1122 26. darryl sittler tor-phi-det 484 637 1121 27. *mike gartner wsh-min-nyr 583 524 1107 28. frank mahovlich tor-det-mtl 533 570 1103 29. *ray bourque bos 291 806 1099 30. *dave taylor la 427 635 1062 31. denis potvin nyi 310 742 1052 32. henri richard mtl 358 688 1046 33. *steve yzerman det 445 595 1040 34. *bobby smith min-mtl 357 679 1036 35. rod gilbert nyr 406 615 1021 36. *glenn anderson edm-tor 459 559 1018 37. lanny mcdonald tor-col-cgy 500 506 1006 38. rick middleton nyr-bos 448 540 988 39. dave keon tor-hfd 396 590 986 40. *ron francis hfd-pit 311 675 986 41. *bernie nicholls la-nyr-edm-nj 397 580 977 42. *brian propp phi-bos-min 413 561 974 43. andy bathgate nyr-tor-det-pit 349 624 973 44. maurice richard mtl 544 421 965 45. larry robinson mtl-la 208 750 958 46. *dino ciccarelli min-wsh-det 485 472 957 47. *steve larmer chi 406 517 923 48. *joe mullen stl-cgy-pit 433 486 919 49. bobby orr bos-chi 270 645 915 50. brad park nyr-bos-det 213 683 896 51. butch goring la-nyi-bos 375 513 888 52. bill barber phi 420 463 883 53. dennis maruk cal-cle-wsh-min 356 521 877 54. ivan boldirev bos-cal-chi-atl-van-det 361 505 866 55. yvan cournoyer mtl 428 435 863 56. dean prentice nyr-bos-det-pit-min 391 469 860 57. ted lindsay det-chi 379 472 851 58. tom lysiak atl-chi 292 551 843 59. *dale hunter que-wsh 269 570 839 60. john tonelli nyi-cgy-la-chi-que 325 511 836 61. jacques lemaire mtl 366 469 835 62. *larry murphy la-wsh-min-pit 203 631 834 63. *john ogrodnick det-que-nyr 402 425 827 64. *doug wilson chi-sj 237 590 827 65. *doug gilmour stl-cgy-tor 277 548 825 66. red kelly det-tor 281 542 823 67. pierre larouche pit-mtl-hfd-nyr 395 427 822 68. bernie geoffrion mtl-nyr 393 429 822 69. steve shutt mtl-la 424 393 817 70. *phil housley buf-wpg 242 575 817 71. wilf paiment kc-col-tor-que-nyr-buf-pit 356 458 814 72. peter mcnab buf-bos-van-nj 363 450 813 73. *brian bellows min-mtl 382 428 810 74. *dave andreychuk buf-tor 373 436 809 75. pit martin det-bos-chi-van 324 485 809 76. *pat lafontaine nyi-buf 386 421 807 77. ken linesman phi-edm-bos 256 551 807 78. gary unger tor-det-stl-atl-la-edm 413 391 804 79. ken hodge,sr chi-bos-nyr 328 472 800 80. *neal broten min 249 547 796 81. wayne cashman bos 277 516 793 82. rick vaive van-tor-chi-buf 441 347 788 83. borje salming tor-det 150 637 787 84. jean pronovost pit-atl-wsh 391 383 774 85. peter mahovlich det-mtl-pit 288 485 773 86. *dave christian wpg-wsh-bos-stl-chi 340 430 770 87. rick kehoe tor-pit 371 396 767 88. rick macleish phi-hfd-pit-det 349 410 759 89. *thomas steen wpg 240 511 751 other active players: *al macinnis cgy 185 555 740 *luc robitaille la 353 371 724 *mike foligno det-buf-tor 351 367 718 *brent sutter nyi-chi 325 389 714 *mark howe hfd-phi-det 192 520 712 *kirk muller nj-mtl 258 433 691 *tim kerr phi-nyr-hfd 370 304 674 *adam oates det-stl-bos 167 490 657 *randy carlyle tor-pit-wpg 148 499 647 *ryan walter wsh-mtl-van 264 382 646 *pat verbeek nj-hfd 318 313 631 *brent ashton van-col-nj-min-que-det-wpg-bos-cgy 284 345 629 *bob carpenter wsh-nyr-la-bos-tor 285 337 622 *brian mullen wpg-nyr-sj-nyi 260 362 622 *ed olczyk chi-tor-wpg-nyr 260 358 618 *kelly kisio det-nyr-sj 215 402 617 *brett hull cgy-stl 356 247 603 *rick tocchet phi-pit 277 324 601 *dan quinn cgy-pit-van-stl-phi-min 232 367 599 *scott stevens wsh-stl-nj 132 462 594 *tomas sandstrom nyr-la 273 320 593 *tom fergus bos-tor-van 235 346 581 *dave babych wpg-hfd-van 120 460 580 *mike ridley nyr-wsh 230 348 578 *laurie boschman tor-edm-wpg-nj-ott 225 350 575 *keith acton mtl-min-edm-phi 224 350 574 *murray craven det-phi-hfd 205 365 570 *kevin dineen hfd-phi 275 290 565 *rob ramage col-stl-cgy-tor-min-tb 139 423 562 *mike krushelnyski bos-edm-la-tor 234 319 553 *gary suter cgy 124 428 552 *pierre turgeon buf-nyi 218 324 542 *troy murray chi-wpg 217 324 541 *cam neely van-bos 292 241 533 *geoff courtnall bos-edm-wsh-stl-van 246 274 520 *vincent damphousse tor-edm-mtl 195 320 515 *jimmy carson la-edm-det 254 259 513 *peter zezel phi-stl-wsh-tor 182 328 510 *guy carbonneau mtl 207 302 509 *mark osborne det-nyr-tor-wpg 202 301 503 *chris chelios mtl-chi 108 394 502 *dave poulin phi-bos 195 301 496 *ray ferraro hfd-nyi 230 263 493 *russ courtnall tor-mtl-min 208 284 492 *joe nieuwendyk cgy 257 234 491 *john maclean nj 241 248 489 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54541">
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 gaetz may or may not be back next year, but in either event the sharks have to pick up others. gaetz won't be back. there's been rumors he was officially released right at the end of the season when his contract expired, but i haven't seen confirmation. it was clear from my talks with the sharks doctors that he wasn't going to make it for a while, and the sharks would have to sign him to a contract, which given his problems competing at the ihl level this spring, doesn't make sense. chuq "imho" von rospach, esd support & training (dal/aux) =+= chuq@apple.com member, sfwa =+= editor, otherrealms =+= genie: mac.bigot =+= alink:chuq minor league fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (san jose giants: a/1/9) san francisco giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (the stick?not!) san jose sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (new seat: 127/tbd) 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54542">
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 come on boston, where the hell are you? seven wins in a row and what, choke? ah well, another brian sutter team is ground into the dirt with intensity during the regular season and then is burned out by playoff time. yah fuhr has been awesome so far, but really you'd think sutter would have learned his lesson about pushing his team too far during the regular season. stuart esrock bowling green state u. "how bout them blues!!!" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54544">
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 one last point, darryl sutter is getting badly out coached by bob berry. the madder darryl gets the more he reminds me of brian. the hawks are quickly loosing thier focus, i don't think the blues will win in 4 but you never know not to sutter bash or anything since i idolized them as players.... you sure would think the sutters would learn something about burning out their teams in the regular season.....just too much intensity during the regular season. i earlier posted a note about brian and got to thinking after i read this item.....gee both sutters won their divisions and now both have lost home ice advantage and are getting smoked in their opening series in the playoffs. kind of makes you wonder....... bottom line....man it is great to be smoking the warthawks!!!!! agreed jim.....this has been damn sweet, so far. about the only thing that comes close to this is shutting up all the maple laugh fans....detroit has completely kicked their asses so far. but, i will stick with the blues for providing the best playoff tonic so far. stuart esrock bowling green state u. "go you blues!!!" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54548">
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 i for one am happy about the ranger's hiring of keenan. it's too bad that they didn't hire him when smith fired nielsen, maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs. what this team needs is a fire under their butts!! reading through most of these hockey news i don't see many ranger fans i'm new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering(1940) fan. but remember suffering builds character!! i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that dreadful stretch. 1. knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline, why didn't we see mike hurlbut, who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first 2. why????!!!!! is joe kocur playing every night? he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play. 3. how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of season. at least he plays with some heart and character, draws penalties and plays 110% when he's on the ice. was he in the doghouse for some 4. joe cirella?????!!!! enough said! ranger fans may be suffering but we're some of the most loyal, unlike fans who only show up when the team wins. as far as the stanley cup goes i think there's only one team that can pittsburgh and that's detroit. this would be the most entertaining and fought series. mario is amazing! i think joe kocus should play every night. he is a big physical guy, and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits. (both checks and fists) its a big advantage to get the crowd going. plus, he helps protect the other players. notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it. i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen, only to go slinking away when kocur steps in. i think he is big asset, but should be third line, and special situation only play. this is fast becoming a game without the goons. i admit kocur may get the fans into the game but surely they would rather see broten taking a pass from kovalev and scoring a breakaway goal to put the rangers up 3 (magic #) goals in the third period, rather than seeing kocur take another stupid penalty and the rangers giving up another powerplay goal! the rangers need another top flight center who can take the pressure off messier and the first line. nemchinov is a perfect third line center. so who goes beezer or richter? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54549">
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 does anyone know if msg will televise any of the binghampton rangers playoff games. even taped replays would be nice? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54550">
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 rumor has it here in pittsburgh that there is going to be a penguins broadcasting change before next season. according to the rumor, the kbl leadership (the company the broadcasts the pen's games) wants to limit loved broadcaster mike lange to radio only and hire don cherry as his broadcast partner. this would mean paul stiegerwald would be fired (good riddance). does anyone know anything about this? lange is a fun broadcaster to listen to, and pens games wouldn't be the same without him. also i hear cherry doesn't have high opinions of lemieux, ulf sammuelsson, or jaromir jagr. how is he supposed to broadcast their games? i believe that the large number of digits on his paycheck (and it would not be binary) would help don to be a fan of ulf!, jaro, and nate peters - lifetime penguins fan (even from before they were the best) kevin l. stamber purdue university top 10 reasons the pittsburgh penguins won the patrick division: 3. a strong desire to get the cup back to your neighborhood eat 'n' park -- where there's always something special cooking! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54551">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54551" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i'm personally expecting moog. blue played fairly decent (alright spectacular at times) in his 1/2 a game but moog has the experience. what did blue have going for him, nothing, what would happen in a tie game, the prssure is then on the goal tender to insure that you keep the puck out (at the very least until your team scores) blue didn't face that kind of pressure on tuesday. the bruins will come out storming that is for sure. i really think that this series is up to buffalo, boston (except for two bad passes in game one) really hasn't played that bad , as a believer is statistics, you know that your going to get the puck by fuhr sooner or later, just keep shooting. there game plan is sound but they need to take the lead first, and control the tempo..... pat ellis p.s. go bruins go umaine black bears 42-1-2 number 1...... hockey east regulars season champions..... hockey east tournament champions>...... paul kariya, hobey baker award winner....... ncaa div. 1 hockey tournament champions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! m-a-i-n-e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54553">
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 once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year. potvin was solid and wendel completely dominated probert. gilmour, as usual, was the best player on the ice. and to those who claim that andreychuk fades in the playoffs, please take note: andreychuk is averaging a goal a 3 stars andreychuk - 2 goals wendel - all over probert probert - all over everyone else todd gill also played an excellent game. we can't say enough about doug gilmour. when he is right, all is well. gilmour brings to mind davey keon from the previous leaf dynasty. predictions so far on track: nyi over buffalo and leafs over la kings. leafs over nyi in the final. i can't let this pass. *if* the islanders get past pitts. (assuming the isles beat the caps, god willing), them i'm sorry, the isles will crush the leafs. flame shields up. of course no one asked me i always interject my opinions on matters i have no concern over go islanders!!!!!! (3 down, 1 to go) go jets for '93 cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54554">
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 coaching news: vasili tichonov (ex-assat) to san jose sharks wow. so that's probably the reason why current assistant coach drew ramenda hinted that he won't be back. thanks for the news, mikko; can you (or any of our finnish netters) comment on tichonov? the first time i heard this piece of news was on the post game radio interview here in jyvaskyla. that was the bronze medal game in the sm-liiga which tichonov's team porin assat (the aces of town pori:) lost. vasili, the son of victor tichonov (the famous soviet coach), said that for a long time the sharks have been persuading him to take the assistant coach post. but he wants to be the head coach where ever he goes. he definitely won't be coaching assat anymore (after three? seasons). i don't know why. vasili is a good coach i believe. assat was a good team, produced many players to our national team. assat wasn't a skilled team (imho) but they had the fighting spirit. after all, they butchered jokerit in the playoffs and gave hard time to tps, the champs. but assat wasn't consistent, only when they were in the right mood they could beat any team in the sm-liiga. i am not 100% sure about the deal with the sharks. as i said, he wants to be the head coach. but he and the sharks are going to negotiate and decide during the wc. i doubt that he will be the head coach but maybe they'll do some compromise. could somebody post more information about vasili? i know he was coaching in the former soviet league; teams, results? his character as a coach? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54555">
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 nolan) says: if the islanders beat the devils tonight, they would finish with identical records. who's the lucky team that gets to face the penguins in the opening round? also, can somebody list the rules for breaking as i recall, the penguins and devils tied for third place last year with identical records, as well. poor devils -- they always get screwed. yet, they should put a scare into pittsburgh. they always do! pens in 7. ** robbie po ** pgh penguins!!! "it won't be easy, but it contact for the '93-'94 '91 stanley cup will have greater rewards. penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains and valleys are rap115@psuvm.psu.edu 11 straight wins! better than nothing at all!" 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54556">
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 (stephen lawrence) says: goodbye minnesota,...you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place! hope you enjoy your twin city wide mania for high school hockey (hey, by the way my old pee wee team is having a reunion in regina, care to come up and film the event?) yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town!!!!! --minnesota definitely deserves an nhl franchise!!! you'll see the minnesota whalers pretty soon, so fear not minnesota fans. no norm green, 'cept for the team color (sorry, bad pun!) --what a difference two years makes! minnesota finished 29-37-14 in 1992 and made the finals. they finish with a better record at 38-38-10 thi year and move to dallas. every team in the playoffs has a winning record!!! finally!!! it's about time, nhl!!! ** robbie po ** pgh penguins!!! "it won't be easy, but it contact for the '93-'94 '91 stanley cup will have greater rewards. penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains and valleys are rap115@psuvm.psu.edu 11 straight wins! better than nothing at all!" 
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 from matthew rush: but he's starting to push it over the edge imho. of course, holik's chop to barrasso's neck wasn't too sportsmanlike either. it seems that he was following the "the only way to beat the penguins is to injure them" philosophy. it's pretty obvious that holik's hitting barrasso was an accident. he was even apologizing for it immediately before the penguins all jumped on him. 
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 the only player the hawks have lost because they screwed up is peluso. the hapless blues lost stevens and gave away oates. okay, so the blues won this you must be kidding, right? in losing stevens the blues got shanahan and joseph. then they traded oates for janney. as a hawks fan you have got to respect those "hapless" names. 8^) lets see, who scored the game winning overtime goal in the 4th game??? luke decock ldecock@mail.sas.upenn.eu /\ david howarth howarth@sbctri.sbc.com ///\ southwestern bell technology resources inc. /// \ advanced technology laboratory /// \ 1010 pine, rm 635 st. louis, mo. 63101 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54564">
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 i'm a hockey fan from way back, and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands (oklahoma). i'm hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas. i've been under the impression that minnesota was one of, or possibly, the hockey state in the u.s. so why is the team moving to a city in texas? is it that the owner is a greedy, self-serving profiteer, or were the stars really not making a profit? or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging? opinions, please. well, as a hockey fan, i think it's terrible. it's one thing to say, "hey, let's give a hockey team to cities that don't have one!" -- that's fine. it's entirely another to say, "okay, let's take a team from a thriving hockey town and move it!" of course, none of us will ever know the real inside story, but from what i know, a group of minneapolis businessmen told green repeatedly that they would purchase the remaining 3600 (?) season tickets to get to the 10,000 level that green wanted, yet he refused every time. it's pretty obvious that he was determined to get out of minneapolis at any cost and use the season tickets thing as an excuse. i was fortunate enough to get to the penultimate game, and the fans were great! people were tailgating and playing roller hockey in the parking lot before the game, the attendance was so full as to have sro, and the whole atmosphere in the centre was terrific. minnesota is hockey, usa. how the nhl can so blithely let the major league team from there move away is beyond me. i only hope they get a new team soon. just my $0.02. -- ali. ali "procrastination" lemer || "i gave [nhl commissioner gary bettman] a puck columbia university (nyc) || once. he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix@ctr.columbia.edu || open it." -- pat williams, gm, orlando magic ***************** be kind to animals...hug a hockey player! ******************* 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54705">
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 well, i got the scores for sat's games... ahl playoff scores-- first round (home team in caps) games played on sat, 4/24 baltimore 3 binghamton 1 rochester 3 utica 2 springfield 4 providence 3 series stati (plural of status? :) adirondack defeated cdi, 4-0 springfield defeated providence, 4-2 binghamton tied w/baltimore, 2-2 rochester defeated utica, 4-1 st john's leads moncton, 3-1 cape breton defeated fredericton, 4-1 + bri farenell farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu + + ahl, ecac and boston bruins contact for rec.sport.hockey + + adirondack red wings, calder cup champs: '81 '86 '89 '92 + + clarkson hockey, ecac tournament champs: '66 '91 '93 + + glens falls high hockey, ny division ii state champs: '90 '91 + + ahl fans: join the ahl mailing list: ahl-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu + 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54707">
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 1993 world championships in germany: group a standings (munich) group b standings (dortmund) gp w t l gf-ga +/- p gp w t l gf-ga +/- p canada 3 3 0 0 17- 1 +16 6 czech republic 3 2 1 0 8- 1 +7 5 russia 3 2 1 0 12- 4 +8 5 finland 3 2 1 0 5- 1 +4 5 sweden 3 2 0 1 8- 6 +2 4 usa 3 1 2 0 8- 3 +5 4 italy 3 1 1 1 5- 8 -3 3 germany 3 2 0 1 11- 8 +3 4 switzerland 3 0 0 3 0- 9 -9 0 france 3 0 0 3 4-13 -9 0 austria 3 0 0 3 2-16 -14 0 norway 3 0 0 3 0-10 -10 0 april 18: italy - russia 2-2 norway - germany 0-6 sweden - austria 1-0 usa - czech republic 1-1 april 19: canada - switzerland 2-0 russia - austria 4-2 finland - france 2-0 april 20: sweden - canada 1-4 czech republic - germany 5-0 switzerland - italy 0-1 finland - usa 1-1 april 21: germany - france 5-3 italy - sweden 2-6 czech republic - norway 2-0 april 22: switzerland - russia 0-6 usa - france 6-1 austria - canada 0-11 norway - finland 0-2 april 23: switzerland - austria germany - finland 20:00 april 24: russia - sweden czech republic - france 15:30 canada - italy usa - norway 20:00 april 25: sweden - switzerland finland- czech republic 15:30 russia - canada germany - usa 20:00 april 26: austria - italy france - norway 20:00 playoffs: april 27: quarterfinals a #2 - b #3 15:30 a #3 - b #2 20:00 april 28: quarterfinals a #1 - b #4 15:30 a #4 - b #1 20:00 april 29: relegation a #5 - b #6 15:30 a #6 - b #5 20:00 april 30: semifinals a #1/b #4 - a #3/b #2 15:30 a #4/b #1 - a #2/b #3 20:00 may 1: relegation 14:30 bronze medal game 19:00 may 2: final 15:00 ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 1993 world championships in germany: group a results: russia - switzerland 6-0 (2-0,1-0,3-0) 1st: rus 1-0 alexei yashin 1 5:23 rus 2-0 alexei yashin 2 16:45 2nd: rus 3-0 ilia biakin 1 7:13 3rd: rus 4-0 andrei khomutov 3 3:47 rus 5-0 ilia biakin 2 4:13 rus 6-0 sergei sorokin 1 13:50 penalties: rus 7*2min 1*5min game penalty, swi 9*2min referee: rob hearn, usa attendance: 3,500 canada - austria 11-0 (6-0,2-0,3-0) 1st: can 1-0 shayne corson 1 9:51 can 2-0 rod brind'amour 2 10:24 can 3-0 paul kariya 1 12:42 can 4-0 gerry galley 1 18:23 can 5-0 eric lindros 2 19:11 can 6-0 rod brind'amour 3 19:46 2nd: can 7-0 eric lindros 3 0:31 can 8-0 eric lindros 4 8:50 3rd: can 9-0 brian savage 1 13:37 can 10-0 brian benning 1 16:26 can 11-0 geoff sanderson 3 17:55 penalties: can 2*2min, aut 2*2min attendance: 7,500 usa - france 6-1 (3-1,1-0,2-0) 1st: fra 0-1 antoine richer 1 5:02 usa 1-1 adam burt 1 8:32 usa 2-1 rob gaudreau 1 18:15 usa 3-1 jeff lazaro 1 18:29 2nd: usa 4-1 adam burt 2 10:54 3rd: usa 5-1 shjon podein 1 8:03 usa 6-1 rob gaudreau 2 16:25 penalties: usa 3*2min, fra 2*2min referee: darren loraas, canada attendance: 1,511 finland - norway 2-0 (0-0,0-0,2-0) 1st: 2nd: 3rd: fin 1-0 juha riihijarvi 1 4:16 fin 2-0 kari harila 1 12:37 penalties: fin 5*2min, nor 7*2min referee: sven-erik sold, sweden attendance: 3,600 the best goal scorers: eric lindros can 4 rod brind'amour can 3 dieter hegen ger 3 andrei khomutov rus 3 geoff sanderson can 3 ilia biakin rus 2 adam burt usa 2 viacheslav bykov rus 2 jiri dolezal cze 2 mike gartner can 2 rob gaudreau usa 2 patrik juhlin swe 2 frank pajonkowski fra 2 bernd truntschka ger 2 jarkko varvio fin 2 alexei yashin rus 2 some wc stats: * fastest goal in a wc game after first face-off: 10 seconds: steve larmer, canada 1991 in a game vs sweden (ended 3-3) boris michailov, ussr 1978 * most consecutive wc games without a loss: 47: ussr 1978-85 38: ussr 1963-68 37: canada 1937-49 35: ussr 1985-90 27: canada 1950-54 ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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 i've been under the impression that minnesota was one of, or possibly, the hockey state in the u.s. so why is the team moving to a city in texas? is it that the owner is a greedy, self-serving profiteer, or were the stars really not making a profit? or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging? norman green claims that he has lost money over the last three years that he has owned the team. when he bought the team, it seemed kind of obvious that he was going to have to deal with a few years in the red, before the team started making a profit again. he gave the impression that he was willing to do so. he claimed two years ago that the team needed to average only 8000+ fans per game in order to pull a profit, but this season the team averaged 12000+ fans, despite increasd ticket prices. i think the team's attendence and play was clearly in an upward trend, which leaves me dumbfounded as to how he could ignore that in deciding to move. he was even offered the many concessions he rudely demanded, such as guaranteed season ticket sales, cheap rent at the other two arenas in town, etc. oh well, i guess the bottom line is $$$. green wanted immediate huge returns in dallas, and wasn't willing to wait another year or so in mn. dallas gave green a pretty stellar deal to play there (although i feel minnesota's was quite reasonable), and he also has some cronies down there as well. all this means, is that minnesota is without an nhl team for a year or two. too bad for the nhl. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54711">
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 read this all you canucks fan out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! winnipeg are going to kick vancouvers butts so badly they are not going to be able to sit down for weeks. and no this is not a joke. a prediction before the fourth game in winnipeg: winnipeg 6 vancouver 2 (2-0,1-2,3-0) selanne, steen score a couple of goals each!!! winnipeg to win stanley cup playoffs.>> to all you jets fanatics...ha ha ha. to normal jets fans...it was a pretty good fourth game. more physical play than i've seen in the first three games.> these moronic posts that have continued throughout the year about how the jets will cremeate the canucks and selanne will smash bure into the boards is so full of *%it. why don't you take a cue fromm daryl and just wait 'till its over before you make more of a fool of yourself???> i'm not going to predict anything about the canucks. they are up 3-1 and are coming back home, but i'm not going swing any *%it around until the series is wrapped up. bravo tony, i too am sick of all the mindless, fanatical, blind faith jets fans who could prpbably predict the end of the world more accurately than the coutcome of a playoff series. now i will admit that i am a mindless, fanatica, blind faith canucks fan. but unlike those from winterpeg, i do not need to vent my spleen upon the world as to how great my team is. i know, i have confidence in them, and that's enough. granted, the jets finished the season hot, and the canucks were having trouble, but vancouver has built themselves a reputation for being a playoff team. just ask any flames fan. they may not win every series, but they alway fight to the end. i'll admit that last year was not great, but if they combine the work ethic of the past with the new tallent of the present, they will be tough to beat (note: i did not say they would pummel every team they meet and destroy the greatest player playing today). now, like any canucks fan, i would love to see them take the cup. i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe, and a 50-50 shot at detroit (i can't see them losing to st. louis). if pittsburgh makes it to the cup, i'd have to put my money on them (yes even if they're facing the canucks). if buffalo, montreal, or quebec beat pittsburgh, i'd choose the winner of vancuover and detroit to take the cup. oh, and one parting note for the jets fans: just how many times has winnepeg made it to the finals? 8') go canucks devorski unfortunately helped to taint an otherwise brilliant display by maclean. the canucks tied up the jets so tightly that i thought that they were mailing them. btw, greg...next time, don't fall asleep in geography class, it's pretty sad when a fellow in norway can spell winnipeg properly and a guy in north america can't. one more thing...how long has vancouver been in the nhl? how many championships do they have? oh yeah...and i can go to the arena and see not one, not two, but *six* championship banners hanging from the rafters. 3 stanley cup banners, and 3 avco cup banners. my nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once (as many times as the rockin' town of kenora has won it!) daryl turner : r.s.h contact for the winnipeg jets internet: umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca fidonet: 1:348/701 -or- 1:348/4 (please route through 348/700) tkachuk over to zhamnov, up to sel{nne, he shoots, he scores! the jets win the cup! the jets win the cup! essensa for vezina! housley for norris! sel{nne for calder! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54712">
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 okay, the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do, does anyone have the history of the washington capitals' futility record in the playoffs? i remember that terry's first year was the first year that the caps finally made it to the third round but before under brian, i noticed that every other year the caps got to the second round and the years in between they didn't make it past the first round. is this trend continuning? the admiral, a hopeless caps fan. p.s. we still remember that 3 ot loss to the islanders! aurggghhhhhhhhh! |admiral steve c. liu internet address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu| |1993 world champions - baltimore orioles - why not? - series in the yards| | 1992-1993 stanley cup champions - washington capitals | |*****the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****| | this sig has been brought to you by... frungy! the sport of kings! | |"my god man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" dr. mccoy| 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54714">
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 could someone please tell me how i can access the faq for this group? i'm relatively new, and would like to read it, but although i've seen it mentioned, i've yet to see it posted. is it archived somewhere or does someone post it to the group on a regular basis? or, is it distributed on-demand? i'd appreciate any help anyone can give me. thanks in advance. p.s. please respond via email as the articles expire within 24 hours on my mail system, and i don't always get a chance to read everything. thanks. mary blumenstock mblumens@itsmail1.hamilton.edu go rangers!!!! (...next year, of course ;-() 
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 potvin by the way has played very well. he kept toronto in the game last night during those 5 penalties in the first period by making great saves, but they did end up getting to him in the second. the guy has a gaa of 6.00 in the playoffs, and he's "played very well"??? hahahahahaa. what a joke. did you watch the games???? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54717">
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 what did happen to the swiss team ? last year they reached the semi-final and now after 3 matches no points and even no goals !! after the 0:1 against italy it seems they lost any hope and were overrun 0:6 by the russian team. now it seems that they have to work hard not to be relegated to the b-level. does anybody know if this wc is the qualification tournement for the olympic games '94 in lillehammer or are some teams already qualified for them. hopp schwiiz 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54719">
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 once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year. perhaps it was the most exciting game played yet that you have seen. for most of us who watch teams around the league with interest and objectivity, it was *nowhere* *near* the most exciting game... paul stewart called *the* single worst game i've seen this year. federov's major was obvious, and i don't dispute it. however, chaisson's penalty shouldn't even have been a penalty, let alone a major and a game misconduct. the 5-minute+ game misc. call is for high sticking only. there is no "blood" penalty. just because chaisson barely touched the poor sap, and he hit the dasher and bled profusely doesn't mean it is a unfortunately, the instant replay is not used on hits. at first, i immediately thought "5 and a game" because the hit _looked_ much more severe from an intent-to-injure perspective than it was. after seeing the replay, i'd say it deserved 2-4 minutes for boarding (it was careless any way you slice it). if stewart had replay, i do not think chaisson would have gotten 5 and the game. in the second period, behind potvin, probert had the puck, and was going to get out front, and was _tackled!_ i couldn't believe the no-call. this no-call was bullshit, i agree. i admire stewart for letting them go, but probert *looked* *up* saying where the hell is the penalty? i've never seen probert whine either (he doesn't need to). now, if probie decides to put wendel through the boards, he's probably gone, right? i don't remember who (on the leafs) touched the puck on racine's shot towards the end of the game (43.2 seconds left), but stewart called it out of play, last touched by detroit. everybody in the garden, including the linesmen knew it. yzerman protested, but stewart just laughed, and really "homered" the wings. this was also bullshit. but once again, no replay. it was rouse, btw. i'm really pissed that the linesmen didn't correct the call either....it's b.s. when the officials refuse to admit they made a mistake. but, when it all comes down to it, [wings played like shit.....] yes. the calls you describe should not have the difference in a detroit loss. i picked the leafs to win game 3 on emotion and adrenalin, but the wings have no excuses for game 4. they should be the superior team. the call that pissed me off the most was anderson getting 4 for putting his stick in somebody's eye. that was _the_ most dangerous stick infraction i have seen in a long time, and everybody in the damn league _knows_ he's an asshole when it comes to stickwork. four lousy minutes. bullshit call. murray should send the tape in. or a wing should hammer the living shit out of him. dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54720">
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 team canada defeated russia 3-1 to finish the priliminary round unbeaten at 5-0. scoring for the canadians were kevin dineen of the flyers, eric lindros also of the flyers and paul cariya of the maine black bears. cariya has put on quite a show at the worlds. he is sure to be drafted in the top 3 this summer at the nhl entry draft. canada defeated italy 11-2 and austria 11-0 before meeting the russians on sunday. the canadians now face finland in the quarter - finals on tuesday. kevin white white@cc.hollandc.pe.ca holland college ch'town pei canada 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54721">
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 how did the leafs turn it around??? i couldn't get the leaf games on the weekend in ca. did the leaf defense wise up overnight? did the leafs get in the slot or was it just "fluke" goals in a goalie duel? did the wings turn off the jets or muscle? what gives here? i caught game 1 on satellite. i figured my leafs were washed. this is a _major_ turnaround. very few predicted this. how, how, how did it happen? wing and leaf perspectives welcomed! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54722">
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 i've heard rumors recently from reliable sources that abe polin, the moron who owns the washington capitals is looking to move the team after this season or next. milwaukee was mentioned as the team's potential destination. the person who told me this is strongly affiliated with the nhl and has been extremely accurate in the past with news of this sort. does anyone know if this is so or has heard anything of the sort? with baltimore's ahl team gone, that would leave the area with only an echl franchise in baltimore- not good. why!!! dc/baltimore is one of the top media markets (=the only thing the nhl seems to care about these days), they've been doing far better than the nba bullets at the gate for the last five years. the team has been a perennial contender and fan support has been good to excellent . . . why should pollin move to city that's five times smaller but has as many teams in other pro sports. i don't get it... marcu$ 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54723">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54723" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 if you are interested in receiving the final player stats for the 1992-1993 nhl season as well as playoff box scores, stats and scores/updates... then e-mail my stat server mmilitzo@skidmore.edu the subject of the message must be: stats 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54724">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54724" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 finns had to do their best last night when they played against norway in world champs. after two periods the score was still 0-0. this game was quite much similar to the first game finland played (against france). the norwegian goalie was very good and a bit lucky, too. in the third period juha riihij{rvi scored 1-0 from a rebound, the time was around 5 mins or so. the second goal was scored by kari harila, who shot straight from a faceoff behind the nowwegian goalie. saku koivu, the 18-year-old center got his first point of this tournament. saku koivu played very well througout the game and he was awarded the best player of the game- prize. despite the fact that he is quite small in size he handles the puck very well and is a fast skater. i think that we will hear from this guy in the future. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54726">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54726" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 amongst penguins' fans there seems to be an inner calm that i've never experienced before this year with the pens. the players and the fans have so much confidence in the team this year. we're savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup. that's a good way to put it. it's a quiet confidence. i don't feel like i have to defend this team anymore. the devils are a puzzle to me. they have long been one of the few teams i always dreaded playing. their d isn't quite what it used to be but they still usually play us pretty tough. i just can't figure it out. at least last night they mounted an attack. 2. watching some of the devils players being interviewed, i could see in their faces and eyes, that they really don't have any confidence. they are left speechless when asked what more they can to do to beat the pens. they act as though they know it's a hopeless task. bernie nichols was interviewed after game 2 on the late news. he was shaking his head in disbelief over barrasso, saying that tommy is like another defenseman out there and how difficult it is playing against him. then he got this far-away look on his face, his voice started trailing off and he said, "it just isn't right...it just isn't fair..." and he tried to muster a smile. i'm really impressed with bowman's coaching tactics - he's had an answer for every move that brooks has thrown at the pens. as far as coaching goes, a pens/islanders match-up should be pretty good. one guy i feel sorry for in all of this so far is chris terreri. i'm sure tom barrasso knows how he feels. for so long tommy would look up and not have a teammate in sight. terreri's teammates really left him out in the cold in the first two games. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54727">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54727" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 news: for the first time all season, the flames are now injury-free. the only player remaining on the limp is center carey wilson who, even when healthy, is not a major part of the team. trent yawney did not score a goal all season until the last regular season game against san jose. he potted his first of the year in that game, and has also scored goals in both game 1 and game 2 against los angeles. thoughts on game 1: the flames played horribly in dropping the first game of their series with los angeles 6-3 on sunday afternoon. they seemed more interested in throwing big hits than in scoring goals. they physically dominated the kings, but that was the only area they dominated in. the game plan was to rush the net and try and take advantage of a young, inexperienced l.a. defence and the shaky kings goaltending, but those plans fell by the wayside while the flames conducted a steady march to the penalty box. particularily stupid was theoren fleury taking a five minute major and a game misconduct for slamming warren rychel's face into the dasher while rychel was on his knees. goaltender mike vernon played well and could not really be faulted for the loss, despite his well-publicized poor record in afternoon games. he got very little support from his defence in clearing the front of the net and sweeping away rebounds. in fact, marty mcsorley's goal actually went in off chris dahlquist's skate in front of the net. thoughts on game 2: the flames came back strong in the second game, evidently aware of the potentially fatal consequences of losing both the first two games on home ice. the first period was fairly even, with the edge going to the kings. but calgary came out strong in the second period and simply dominated the kings, scoring five goals to take a lead they never relinquished en route to a 9-4 win. the deciding factors in this game were faceoffs and special teams. calgary dominated on faceoffs as they did in game 1, but they were able to make better use of the won faceoffs in this game than they did in the first one. calgary also went 3-for-5 on the powerplay while l.a. only went 1-for-8 and gave up a shorthanded goal to joel otto. l.a.'s powerplay goal also came late in the game with the outcome already decided. the kings' powerplay failed them when they needed it most, in the 1st and 2nd periods. the flames lost rw greg paslawski with a suspected shoulder injury when he was leveled by alexei zhitnik right after scoring calgary's 7th goal. charlie huddy left the game for the kings with a groin injury. the game was marred by stupidity in the last minute. first, craig berube of calgary took a five-minute major for fighting plus a game misconduct for instigating when he went after tony granato for no apparent reason. granato drew a minor for some strange reason. (turtling perhaps). this was followed 30 seconds later by warren rychel drawing a major, minor, and game misconduct for hitting frank musil in the face with his stick and then instigating a fight. musil got a fighting major for some similarily strange reason. hardy and yawney went toe-to-toe and both got double minors. (gregson thought that musil turtling amounted to fighting, but that yawney and hardy throwing punches at each other was just roughing? where's this guy from.....) upcoming games: friday april 23, at l.a. sunday april 25, at l.a. tuesday april 27, home to l.a. thursday april 29, at l.a. (if necessary) saturday may 1, home to l.a. (if necessary) injuries: c carey wilson, indefinite with recurring knee injuries (dec 10) 1992-93 calgary flames final regular season statistics. # pos. name gp g a pts +/- pim 14 rw theoren fleury 83 34 66 100 +14 88 26 c robert reichel 80 40 48 88 +25 54 20 d gary suter 81 23 58 81 -1 112 10 lw gary roberts 58 38 41 79 +32 172 25 c joe nieuwendyk 79 38 37 75 +9 52 42 rw sergei makarov 71 18 39 57 0 40 2 d al macinnis 50 11 43 54 +15 61 29 c joel otto 75 19 33 54 +2 150 28 lw paul ranheim 83 21 22 43 -4 26 23 rw greg paslawski 73 18 24 42 +3 12 22 rw ron stern 70 10 15 25 +4 207 15 lw brent ashton 58 10 13 23 +11 52 11 lw chris lindberg 62 9 12 21 -3 18 34 d roger johansson 77 4 16 20 +13 62 18 d trent yawney 63 1 16 17 +9 67 3 d frank musil 80 6 10 16 +28 131 39 c brian skrudland 39 7 7 14 +4 65 16 lw craig berube 77 4 8 12 -6 209 7 d michel petit 35 3 9 12 -5 54 4 d kevin dahl 61 2 9 11 +9 56 33 c carey wilson (i) 22 4 7 11 +10 8 5 d chris dahlquist 74 3 7 10 0 66 21 d alexander godynyuk 27 3 4 7 +6 19 19 rw todd harkins 15 2 3 5 -4 22 12 lw paul kruse 27 2 3 5 +2 41 35 g jeff reese 26 0 4 4 0 4 6 d greg smyth 35 1 2 3 +2 95 30 g mike vernon 64 0 2 2 0 42 27 rw thomas forslund 6 0 2 2 0 0 ?? c shawn heaphy 1 0 0 0 0 2 ?? lw patrick lebeau 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 g andrei trefilov 1 0 0 0 0 2 # name gp min. gaa w l t en so ga sa save% 30 mike vernon 64 3732 3.27 29 26 9 4 2 203 1799 .888 35 jeff reese 26 1311 3.26 14 4 1 0 1 71 631 .889 1 andrei trefilov 1 65 4.62 0 0 1 0 0 5 39 .872 team totals 84 5119 3.30 43 30 11 4 3 283 2469 .886 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54728">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54728" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 so what's stopping pocklington from going to a bank and borrowing $41 million dollars to pay off his treasury branch loans...i was reading according to the recent tsn report peter puck is not paying any interest on the treasury branch loans. that's a lot of green. somewhere than pocklington business have gross revenues of about $500 million per year...i don't think he would have much problem "borrowing from his visa to pay off his mastercard" if he wanted to. again, according to tsn, virtually everything that peter puck has already has liens against it. of course we can't really be sure of this. pocklington is at the point of maximum advantage right now...and he is basically right in that northlands (which is a creature of the city of edmonton) must give him a better deal in the era of escalating salaries. northlands and the city benefitted as much as he did during the eighties from the oilers...and wealth generated by the oilers success was shared...but the finanical viability of small market teams has radically changed in the space of a couple of years, and for the oilers to remain viable and competitive, they need much more of the revenue stream from concessions, parking, and building advertising as most every other professional sports franchise in north america has. what was once a fair agreement that shared the wealth is now northlands sucking the blood out of the oilers franchise. the oiler rationale regarding the renegotiation of player contracts is that a deal is a deal. sather has spouted this repeatedly. pocklinton has a contract with northlands until 1999. a deal is a deal. perhaps if he included the income he has received from his sale of assets (players such as gretzky) and the income he has received in expansion fees with his revenues he wouldn't be losing money. he has admitted pulling this money out of the oiler franchise to put into his other businesses. the oilers have paid several times over what the coliseum cost to build, and bring edmonton prestige and recognition throughout the world that is essentially priceless...to nickel-and-dime the oilers just so northlands can use revenue sucked out of the oilers to subsidize their horse-racing operations is insanity. i think that pocklington has received ample provincial subsidization. i can't really blame him for going after municipal subsidization but he is certainly not entitled to it. pocklington has "sucked" revenue out of the oilers in order to prop up his failing business interests. pocklington is not to be trusted. i doubt very much that any oiler team will ever again make the playoffs under pocklington's stewardship. as soon as a player shows himself to be a competent nhl'er and expects to be paid accordingly he is shipped off for younger players and or draft picks. cordially, as always, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca "so many morons... rm ...and so little time." 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54730">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54730" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 aargh! paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref. presently in the nhl. he called a total of 4 penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques. the nords' penalty came in o.t. stewart, being an ex-nordique himself, was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder...we was robbed!!!! if my powerplay was as bad as montreal's, i'd be thanking stewart for calling as few penalties as possible. quebec's powerplay is lethal and it is to their advantage to have a penalty-filled game where they can clean up with their superior powerplay. montreal really lost that game (and game 2) because patrick roy is well on his way to having another one of his trademark awful playoffs. the man is truly overrated. quebec has scored six goals on roy and four, perhaps five, were quite stoppable. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54731">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54731" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc? i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev, zubov, and andersson for binghamton, but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield, while nylander wanted to play for sweden. the whalers allowed the nhl to decide, and the nhl chose the wcs. how does this differ from the rangers and oilers? did the whalers have to go through the league, or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield? as long as a player is under contract to an organization, he is obligated to play only where that organization tells him to play or gives him permission to play. the rangers are certainly within their rights to force zubov and andersson to report to binghampton. it certainly does reflect a lack of class on the part of the ranger organization, however. is having binghampton win the calder cup really more important to them than keeping their players happy? 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54732">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54732" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 and, while we are on the subject, has a captain ever been traded, resigned, or been striped of his title during the season? any other team captain trivia would be appreciated. brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the 1989-90 season. this was during the off-season though. there's countless examples of captains being traded, i'm sure. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54734">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54734" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 speaking of roger and ilk, whatever happened to good ol' gln? i had him in my kill file since last year's playoffs and now that i've moved to a new news reader which doesn't have kill files, i find that he's gone. i must admit, however, that unlike gln, roger seems to know something about the game as long as the subject doesn't touch on the leafs. ray skirsky rskirsky@qualcomm.com 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54738">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54738" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe, and a 50-50 shot at detroit (i can't see them losing to st. louis). gee, they lost to st. louis twice this year. maybe you should have your eyes checked. 8^) go canucks go blues....the rodney dangerfield team....they get no respect....except in chicago mabee... /\ david howarth howarth@sbctri.sbc.com ///\ southwestern bell technology resources inc. /// \ advanced technology laboratory /// \ 1010 pine, rm 635 st. louis, mo. 63101 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54739">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54739" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 belfour played well, but i hardly saw any offense from any hawk. what i want to know is where was roenick. as far as i can tell, he was right next to bassen! don't you guys love it when people like me come out of the woodwork...8^) /\ david howarth howarth@sbctri.sbc.com ///\ southwestern bell technology resources inc. /// \ advanced technology laboratory /// \ 1010 pine, rm 635 st. louis, mo. 63101 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54740">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54740" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 1993-1994 nhl hockey pool denis papp and chris stoochnoff rules: - pick 17 players (3 lw, 3 c, 3 rw, 3 ld, 3 rd, 2 goalies) you may pick any 17 players from any team. - points for players are as follows: - 1 point per goal - 1 point per assist - 1 point per 10 pim - points for goalies are as follows: - 2 points per win - 1 point per tie - 1 point per assist - 1 point per 5 pim - 2 points per shutout - 100 points per goal entries: -entries can be sent (by mail or ascii text file) to chris stoochnoff or denis papp on hard wired bbs (434-7996). -due date for entries is the first day of regular season play. after that, no more entries will be accepted (unless it is just slightly late. if that is the case, there will be a small penalty applied to the team). -internet users can send email to dpapp@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca prizes: prizes have not yet been considered. they could range from nothing to free time on hard wired bbs or even something else (if you have any suggestions... please feel free to put your two cents worth in). one idea is to get whoever is willing to to submit an equal amount of money, and that will go to be the prize money. the prize money will go to the top team who has submitted to the prize pool. a list of all people who submit money will be posted, as well as those who didnt - if it is done this way. cost: the cost... absolutely nothing!!! there is absolutely no fee for this pool. note: -if you have any questions, please feel free to send them to denis papp or myself (chris stoochnoff). the players positions (ie. brett hull is right wing) will be decided by the year book i will be using. so, if you do not know a certain players position, or you are not completely sure what position he plays, then ask me and i'll tell you. -and for a great time, call the hard wired bbs at (403)-434-7996 (this will be the location where the pool standings will be displayed). internet users: -to contact denis papp, just email (dpapp@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca). standings will be distributed by email as well. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54741">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54741" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 hi guys.... what happened? 1. potvin didn't let six goals by. 2. wendel and andreychuk woke up. 3. home ice and lots of yelling in the gardens gave the leafs the emotional edge. 4. refs calls (especially last night) tended to favour leafs. a couple of comments: 1. on gilmour: just because the guy isn't one of the three stars doesn't mean he was not leading the team. someone posted the playoff point total and he's in something like fifth or sixth place....plus, he walked away with the molson cup (given for accumulating points from the three star selection) during the regular season. 2. on the officiating: i've heard gripes from both ends on this one. emotions are very high in this series; the rivalry is one of the stronger ones i know of. i do have to agree that the officiating last night was pro-leaf in general (except for whoever missed that slash on gilmour's hand). 3. in general: i still think detroit has one of the better chances vs. pittsburgh (though i think the leafs would do better against the blues....but not as well if they made it out of the division). problem is, i like both these teams, though i'm supporting the leafs on the underdog principle. d by the way...gilmour tiring out is a lot like bob probert not playing aggressive hockey.... by the way....i'm not any sort of expert, nor do i claim to be. i just like watching a good matchup. tee hee hee...ooops! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54743">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54743" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 while i will first congratulate the blues for their victory, i think it must be realized that the primary reason the blues were able to win was curtis joseph. when a goalkeeper gets hot, there is little an opposing team can do. joseph should be given the entire city of st. louis, because otherwise there would probably be a game 6 scheduled. as for the game on sunday. the blues caught a few breaks, without a doubt. one was the referee constantly watching the blackhawks, looking for reasons to give them penalties. second, the blues first goal resulted because the puck hit the linesman as the blackhawks attempted to clear. no linesman, no shot for brett(i can redirect anything)hull to redirect. on another of st. louis' goals, belfour was tripped from behind as he went to make the save by someone who didn't belong in the crease, which means it was a st. louis player. finally, the overtime goal was caused because someone kept belfour from getting back to the crease. no goalie, no way to stop the shot. i congratulate st. louis for beating the hawks. it will be a shame to see bryan murray finally advance to the campbell conference finals because joseph won't be able to stop the powerful red wing attack. |the world reknown jason boskey | mail: bosk@uiuc.edu | |known throughout the world as the bosk |"christ, you know it ain't easy,| |all rights reserved, all lefts enhanced |you know how hard it can be, | |-----------------------------------------|the way things are goin' | |"here they come spinning out of the turn"|they're gonna crucify me" | 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54750">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54750" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i was asked to post the team log of this year's winning team in the regular season draft. here 'tis: %begin dave_wessels ...reading team 'dave_wessels' from database %log all team log: name team points value bought week sold week trevor linden van 72 72.0 78.8 pre 70.4 10 cliff ronning van 85 85.0 74.6 pre 97.8 6 robert reichel cgy 88 88.0 58.9 pre 51.4 8 pat verbeek hfd 82 82.0 63.0 pre 64.3 7 pat falloon sj 28 28.0 62.7 pre 46.8 7 john maclean nj 48 48.0 55.0 pre 27.5 7 eric lindros phi 75 75.0 55.0 pre 105.0 6 rick tocchet pit 109 109.0 81.2 pre 106.9 9 greg adams van 56 56.0 63.0 pre 93.8 8 mike ricci que 78 78.0 60.3 pre 79.8 6 joe juneau bos 102 102.0 55.0 pre 110.9 6 kevin hatcher wsh 79 79.0 57.4 pre 54.6 6 teemu selanne wpg 132 132.0 55.0 pre 109.2 6 pavel bure van 110 110.0 77.5 pre 108.9 8 dixon ward van 52 52.0 55.0 pre 61.2 7 russ courtnall min 79 79.0 60.7 6 84.6 14 darren turcotte nyr 53 53.0 60.7 6 72.1 14 christian ruuttu chi 54 54.0 61.9 6 52.2 13 petr nedved van 71 71.0 59.3 6 84.5 12 petr klima edm 48 48.0 65.3 6 -- -- tony granato la 82 82.0 56.0 6 75.6 12 steve duchesne que 82 82.0 88.7 6 92.2 13 alexander mogilny buf 127 127.0 103.8 6 118.8 14 ray sheppard det 66 66.0 55.0 7 63.0 15 steve larmer chi 70 70.0 64.9 7 79.7 17 vincent damphousse mtl 97 97.0 64.9 7 94.5 15 tony amonte nyr 76 76.0 63.0 7 63.0 16 brendan shanahan stl 94 94.0 55.0 8 -- -- corey millen la 39 39.0 55.0 8 48.9 16 johan garpenlov sj 66 66.0 55.0 8 55.9 15 kelly kisio sj 78 78.0 63.0 8 72.3 15 pat elynuik wsh 57 57.0 57.0 9 56.7 16 benoit hogue nyi 75 75.0 61.6 10 74.3 20 pat flatley nyi 60 60.0 55.0 11 59.9 18 rod brind'amour phi 86 86.0 74.1 12 81.0 19 michal pivonka wsh 74 74.0 55.0 12 -- -- joe mullen pit 70 70.0 55.0 12 -- -- john cullen tor 50 50.0 55.0 13 55.7 19 stephane richer nj 73 73.0 55.0 13 61.8 19 jeff norton nyi 50 50.0 64.0 14 56.3 20 glenn anderson tor 65 65.0 55.0 14 -- -- ray bourque bos 82 82.0 65.6 14 -- -- bernie nicholls nj 60 60.0 72.8 14 67.8 20 andrew cassels hfd 85 85.0 56.0 14 -- -- dmitri kvartalnov bos 72 72.0 82.1 15 -- -- tomas sandstrom la 52 52.0 59.7 15 43.6 22 joe sakic que 105 105.0 109.6 15 -- -- rob blake la 59 59.0 59.5 16 -- -- derek king nyi 76 76.0 68.3 16 70.9 22 michel goulet chi 44 44.0 55.0 16 45.4 23 mike modano min 93 93.0 90.5 17 -- -- dmitri khristich wsh 67 67.0 55.0 18 -- -- alexander semak nj 79 79.0 62.6 19 -- -- nikolai borschevsky tor 74 74.0 69.3 19 -- -- mike donnelly la 69 69.0 70.5 19 -- -- jeff brown stl 78 78.0 69.1 20 -- -- thomas steen wpg 72 72.0 55.0 20 -- -- kevin dineen phi 63 63.0 55.5 20 -- -- mario lemieux pit 160 160.0 134.9 22 -- -- wayne gretzky la 65 65.0 55.0 23 -- -- you have 1.9 cash points. as of week 28, your team is placed 1 (of 262 teams). andrew scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com hp idacom telecom operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 during the roman era, 28 was considered old... 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54751">
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 says: (michael virata sy) says: michael sy mvs1@cec2.wustl.edu (devils consultant) and how 'bout those devils! 4-1 over the penguins. hahahahahahah! attention all penguins fans: if the pens win game 5, show some laughter in that e-mail box address listed above. thanks! :-) attention penguins fans once again, apparently 99.999% of you understand that this was just a joke (hence the :-) next to it) but one idiot on here doesn't as he got pissed at me and sent me two hate e-mails telling me that this is wrong. i have no intentions of sending e-mail to anyone should the pens win tonight, and i really do not expect/do not intend to lead any of you to send this poster e-mail either. it was not a serious request. if you didn't know that (which you probably did) then don't do it. thanks. ** robbie po ** 1993's streakers "we do what comes naturally! patrick division semi's -- pgh penguins -- you see now, wait for the devils 4, penguins 1 1991, 1992 stanley possibility, don't you see a penguins lead, 3-1 cup champions :-) strong resemblance..."-dg '89 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54752">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54752" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 c liu) says: okay, the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do, does anyone have the history of the washington capitals' futility record in the playoffs? i remember that terry's first year was the first don't give up so soon. a lot of burgh fans didn't give up at 3-1 last year. you gotta believe! (hard as that may seem) with the caps with the #1 power play in the playoffs and #1 penalty killing (according to mike lange) all the caps have to do is make sure it doesn't go ot...as that was boston's and chicago's demise. ot can be a curse. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54754">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54754" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ok, buffalo fans. i am a red wings fan, but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins. is there any reason for this? is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine? i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres. dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54755">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54755" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 i'd like to echo these sentiments. this is the worst coverage i can ever remember seeing on cbc. as soon as the game ends, i can count to 30, and by that time, they've signed off the air. no post game interviews, no updating of late scores, nothin'. tsn is really putting cbc to shame. i only hope the later round coverage improves, i mean, who really wants to see cbc primetime news instead of hockey. my $.02, this was a concession to mansbridge and cbc news, they argued that if you're going to play havoc with the schedule, you should at least make sure that prime time is aired as soon as possible. news got a commitment that the post-game show would be scrapped and that the network would go to ptn within one minute or so of the game ending. as for the earlier comments about cbc being "ontariocentric" frankly the no doubleheader decison goes both ways, people in the west cant see the leafs and people in central canada can't see the jets game. the reason for the decision was cbc's feeling they couldn't sell advertising for six hours of hockey in one night. as for who wants to see news over hockey, a lot of people. cbc always gets plenty of complaints about juggling the news schedule. darren reiniger reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca centre for marine geology, dalhousie university, halifax, n.s., canada | people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves | where it came from in the first place. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54756">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54756" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 there was a discussion about how real fans were ones who respect their teams no matter ow bad they are. that's bullshit. anyone who would follow the pens or the pirates in parts of the early eighties on a devoted basis are losers. it's ok to follow and be concerned about your home team. but to give them respect even when it is clear the management and the players suck should not be required of a true fan.a true fan would follow the team in troubled times to the extent that they could discuss how to improve the team. when i visit pittsburgh, i'll refuse to go to a pirates game since i think the management has given pittsburgh a team which could have been much better even if they couldn't sign barry bonds. lert's say the pens start doing to their own team what the oilers have done this year and what the whalers have done in recent years, i would be hard pressed to show much enthusiasm for the team. i'll still follow it and bitch about it. but i won't waste my money on mediocre teams. -p{ravin ratnam 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54763">
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 ua256@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (tom moffat) says: if the oilers move to hamilton what division will they play in . and won't they have to change their name to the "steelers" or something. the only significant deposits of oil around hamilton are those caused by the tire fire a few years back. then again if the nba can have the utah jazz or the l.a. lakers (think about it, what lakes are in l.a.) then i guess the nhl can have the hamilton oilers. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54766">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54766" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 kbl and the penguins have just inked a new deal, giving kbl all tv and radio rights to pens games. plans are that kbl would like to have an entire night of hockey, starting with a 7:00 pre-game show and running to a post game show that would sign off about 11:00 (depending upon length of the game). don cherry announcing penguins games. yeah, and (to quote pgh's goofy mayor) i'm the queen of sheba. contact for the penguins lli+@cs.cmu.edu well i was watching hockey hotline last night and stan said that the station (kbl) had been recieving calls all day concerning this subject. and the verdict was that almost exclusively nobody wanted that load mouth, know it all blow hard, former bruin whiner, ulf hating, scum sucking, pr*ck of missery in pittsburgh on a permanent basis. that's not exactly what stan said; i did do a bit of interpriting. the cmu kiddie 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54767">
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 [obnoxious name-calling deleted] ok, who wants rm off of here? i say we get his net privleges revoked. any seconds? go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54768">
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 shut up. thank you. go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54772">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54772" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 italy-sweden 2-6 (0-1,1-2,1-3) w d l canada 2 2 0 0 6-1 4 sweden 3 2 0 1 8-6 4 russia 2 1 1 0 6-4 3 italy 3 1 1 1 5-8 3 austria 2 0 0 2 2-5 0 switzerland 2 0 0 2 0-3 0 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54773">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54773" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 ali "procrastination" lemer || "i gave [nhl commissioner gary bettman] a puck columbia university (nyc) || once. he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix@ctr.columbia.edu || open it." -- pat williams, gm, orlando magic ***************** be kind to animals...hug a hockey player! ******************* nice sig. like the change. btw: could you post the names of the people who are going to be on the letter? i (and i'm sure others) would like to know if we are included. if i'm not i want to be! roger is a fool! go skins! ||"now for the next question... does emotional music have quite go braves! || an effect on you?" - mike patton, faith no more go hornets! || go capitals! ||mike friedman (hrivnak fan!) internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54776">
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 which doesn't mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the 5-game playoff format. but, yes, it looks dark for the b's. what a the fat lady is about to hit the first note...okay,how about 3-0 deficits? the b's chances for a comeback are now less 1%(that's based on 7-game playoff format)... who do you think gets the start in game three? i hope it is going to be blue. if the team can rally around him, maybe moog can too. he got the start but the headlines on all boston local tv sportscats said it all : "sutter blue it!". and he did. harry sinden's appearance outside of b's dressing room after game 3 was a pathetic site. he said something really retarded to cover sutter's behind,"this game is not about winning or losing..". harry,check the schedule! your team is in the playoffs and about to go on a long summer vacation on sunday morning! harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business,brian sutter. sutter's playoff record as the head coach in st.louis speaks for itself. the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year... -ppv mark 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54778">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54778" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 (detroit, april 21) most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to another easy victory over the best team in the nhl. for the best goaltender in the world, felix potvin, six was a bad number as he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse to the goon tactics employed by the inferior red wings team. p.s. we told you this would happen, roger. didn't we? i love it..... where is roger anyway? haven't heard from him in awhile. he must be out on the golf course waiting for the leafs to join him any day now. : ) laurie marshall wayne state university detroit, michigan go wings!!!! 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54779">
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 roots in detroit. he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return? wake up and smell the norris!! rick zombo was traded to the blues for vince riendo (sp?) last season. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54780">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey54780" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 |> as far as cheveldae is concerned, he is a decent goalie. the most logical |> trade in the offseason to me would be between detroit and ny rangers. i'm sure |> if beezer would be traded he would enjoy the opportunity to go back to his |> roots in detroit. he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the |> rangers could get a zombo in return? beezer got a few good years in him and |> the opportunity to get a fresh start would energize his play. only problem is that zombo was traded to st. louis last year for goalie vincent riendeau. i think that while chevy is not among the elite class of goalies, he is adequate given the offensive firepower of the wings. 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey54900">
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 dear mr. bettman - (ali's letter deleted for brevity) [...] (roger's acid-laced response removed) maybe we should get together and establish some kind of mandatory maturity level to keep some of this stuff off of the air. your responses might just exclude you from sharing your opinions, then. you see, the same rights ali has to mail her letter to the nhl are the same ones that let you post replies that mow her down like wheat at harvest-time. she never said she represented the entire internet or the entire group rec.sport.hockey. she has every right to state her opinion along with those of the fifty or sixty or hundred-odd folk who've agreed to allow her to list their names on the bottom of it. you may not agree with it. fine. i really don't care enough about the name change to care. your name isn't attached to it, so why moan and complain? if you felt her words were leading, well, you're free to feel that way and take exception, but manners never hurt. i personally disagree and feel her generalizations were fine (i have the right to think and say that, too). ali's under no compunction to change a single word. now, while you're free to disagree with every word she wrote, to tear apart her character is uncalled for. i'm posting this as a form of public reprimand. if you tear down ali's integrity and character publicly, you'll get chastised publicly in return. would it have been so hard to say, "ali, please be a bit more specific in your description, the way i've read it indicates you're stating my view also, and that's simply not true. i'd really like to see a disclaimer noting that you don't mean the entire internet or the entire r.s.h. group attached to it, despite your intent to list names at the bottom. thanks. cordially as always," &c. calling her a moron and an asshole just reduces the weight of your words and the opinions of their author in the eyes of myself, and possibly others. oh, and ali, nice to see someone standing up for something, even if it's not something i personally advocate. :-) valerie hammerl john sr. would lift pat over the boards, grab hammerl@acsu.buffalo.edu his hand, and start running around the outside, v085pwpz@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu faster and faster. "i wanted to learn how to get that feeling, and the only way was to learn how to skate." p. lafontaine 
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<instance id="rec.sport.hockey55022">
<answer instance="rec.sport.hockey55022" senseid="rec.sport.hockey"/>
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 1993 world championships in germany: group a standings (munich) group b standings (dortmund) gp w t l gf-ga p gp w t l gf-ga p sweden 1 1 0 0 1-0 2 germany 1 1 0 0 6-0 2 italy 1 0 1 0 2-2 1 czech republic 1 0 1 0 1-1 1 russia 1 0 1 0 2-2 1 usa 1 0 1 0 1-1 1 canada 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 finland 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 switzerland 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 france 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 austria 1 0 0 1 0-1 0 norway 1 0 0 1 0-6 0 april 18: italy - russia 2-2 norway - germany 0-6 sweden - austria 1-0 usa - czech republic 1-1 april 19: canada - switzerland 15:30 russia - austria finland - france 20:00 april 20: sweden - canada czech republic - germany 15:30 switzerland - italy finland - usa 20:00 april 21: germany - france 15:30 italy - sweden czech republic - norway 20:00 april 22: switzerland - russia usa - france 15:30 austria - canada norway - finland 20:00 april 23: switzerland - austria germany - finland 20:00 april 24: russia - sweden czech republic - france 15:30 canada - italy usa - norway 20:00 april 25: sweden - switzerland finland- czech republic 15:30 russia - canada germany - usa 20:00 april 26: austria - italy france - norway 20:00 playoffs: april 27: quarterfinals a #2 - b #3 15:30 a #3 - b #2 20:00 april 28: quarterfinals a #1 - b #4 15:30 a #4 - b #1 20:00 april 29: relegation a #5 - b #6 15:30 a #6 - b #5 20:00 april 30: semifinals a #1/b #4 - a #3/b #2 15:30 a #4/b #1 - a #2/b #3 20:00 may 1: relegation 14:30 bronze medal game 19:00 may 2: final 15:00 ((\\ //| staffan axelsson \\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se \\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for swedish hockey 
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<instance id="sci.crypt14832">
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 archive-name: ripem/attacks last-update: 31 mar 93 21:00:00 -0500 some possible attacks on ripem this is a living list of potential weaknesses to keep your eyes open for when using ripem for secure electronic mail. it does not go into great detail, and is almost certainly not exhaustive. obviously, many of the weaknesses are weaknesses of cryptographically secured mail in general, and will pertain to secure mail programs other than ripem. it is maintained by marc vanheyningen <mvanheyn@cs.indiana.edu>. it is posted monthly to a variety of news groups; followups pertaining specifically to ripem should go to alt.security.ripem. cryptanalysis attacks - breaking rsa would allow an attacker to find out your private key, in which case he could read any mail encrypted to you and sign messages with your private key. rsa is generally believed to be resistant to all standard cryptanalytic techniques. even a standard key (about 516 bits with ripem) is long enough to render this impractical, barring a huge investment in hardware or a breakthrough in factoring. - breaking des would allow an attacker to read any given message, since the message itself is encrypted with des. it would not allow an attacker to claim to be you. des has only 56 bits in its key, and thus could conceivably be compromised by brute force with sufficient hardware, but few agencies have such money to devote to simply read one message. since each message has a different des key, the work for each message would remain high. key management attacks - stealing your private key would allow the same benefits as breaking rsa. to safeguard it, it is encrypted with a des key which is derived from a passphrase you type in. however, if an attacker can get a copy of your private keyfile and your passphrase (by snooping network packets, tapping lines, or whatever) he could break the whole scheme. the main risk is that of transferring either the passphrase or the private key file across an untrusted link. so don't do that. run ripem on a trusted machine, preferably one sitting right in front of you. ideally, your own machine in your own home (or maybe office) which nobody else has physical access to. - fooling you into accepting a bogus public key for someone else could allow an opponent to deceive you into sending secret messages to him rather than to the real recipient. if the enemy can fool your intended recipient as well, he could re-encrypt the messages with the other bogus public key and pass them along. it is important to get the proper public keys of other people. the most common mechanism for this is finger; assuming the opponent has not compromised routers or daemons or such, finger can be given a fair amount of trust. the strongest method of key authentication is to exchange keys in person; however, this is not always practical. having other people "vouch for you" by signing a statement containing your key is possible, although ripem doesn't have features for doing this as automatically as pgp. ripem does generate and check md5 fingerprints of public keys in the key files; they may be exchanged via a separate channel for playback attacks - even if an opponent cannot break the cryptography, an opponent could still cause difficulties. for example, suppose you send a message with mic-only (a pem mode which does not provide disclosure protection) to alice which says "ok, let's do that." your opponent intercepts it, and now resends it to bob, who now has a message which is authenticated as from you telling him to do that. of course, he may interpret it in an entirely different context. or your opponent could transmit the same message to the same recipient much later, figuring it would be seen differently at a later time. or the opponent could change the originator-name: to himself, register your public key as his, and send a message hoping the recipient will send him return mail indicating (perhaps even quoting!) the unknown message. to defeat playback attacks, the plaintext of each message should include some indication of the sender and recipient, and a unique identifier (typically the date). a good front-end script for ripem should do this automatically (imho). as a recipient, you should be sure that the originator-name: header and the sender indicated within the plaintext are the same, that you really are a recipient, and that the message is not an old one. some this also can and should be automated. the author of this faq has made a modest attempt at automating the process of generating and checking encapsulated headers; the programs are included in the standard distribution in the utils directory. local attacks - clearly, the security of ripem cannot be greater than the security of the machine where the encryption is performed. for example, under unix, a super-user could manage to get at your encrypted mail, although it would take some planning and effort to do something like replace the ripem executable with a trojan horse or to get a copy of the plaintext, depending how it's stored. in addition, the link between you and the machine running ripem is an extension of that. if you decrypt with ripem on a remote machine which you are connected to via network (or, worse yet, modem), an eavesdropper could see the plaintext (and probably also your passphrase.) ripem should only be executed on systems you trust, obviously. in the extreme case, ripem should only be used on your own machine, which you have total control over and which nobody else has access to, which has only carefully examined software known to be free of viruses, and so on. however, there's a very real trade-off between convenience and security here. a more moderately cautious user might use ripem on a unix workstation where other people have access (even root access), but increase security by keeping private keys and the (statically linked, of course) executable on a floppy disk. some people will keep ripem on a multi-user system, but when dialing in over an insecure line, they will download the message to their own system and perform the ripem decryption there. however, the security provided by such a mechanism is somewhat illusory; since you presumably type your cleartext password to log in, you've just given away the store, since the attacker can now log in as you and install traps in your account to steal your private key next time you use it from a less insecure line. this will likely remain the situation as long as most systems use the rather quaint mechanism of cleartext password authentication. i find it nice to put a brief statement of how carefully i manage my security arrangement in my .plan next to my public key, so that potential correspondents can be aware what level of precautions are in place. some people use two keys, a short one which is not carefully managed for ordinary use and a longer one which is treated with greater care for critical correspondence. untrusted partner attacks - ripem's encryption will ensure that only a person with the private key corresponding to the public key used to encrypt the data may read the traffic. however, once someone with that key gets the message, she may always make whatever kind of transformations she wishes. there exist no cryptographic barriers to a recipient, say, taking an encrypted message and converting it to a mic-only message, signed by you and readable by anyone, although ripem does not provide this functionality. indeed, the latest pem draft i have seen specifically states that such transformations should be possible to allow forwarding functions to work. including the recipients in the plaintext, as mentioned above, will make it possible for recipients of a redistributed message to be aware of its original nature. naturally, the security of the cryptography can never be greater than the security of the people using it. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt14982">
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 if you have access to ftp, try ftping to rsa.com, login as anonymous. there are several documents there, including a "frequently asked questions about today's cryptography" document. it has faq in its name. i believe this document explains the idea behind the certifying authorities. good luck --john kelsey, c445585@mizzou1.missouri.edu thanks. i've ftp'ed the faq file and it is just what i was looking for. jim-miller@suite.com 
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<instance id="sci.crypt14987">
<answer instance="sci.crypt14987" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 [lots of stuff.] i hate to follow up to my own posting, but i should perhaps clarify some things so i won't get flamed. first of all, when i'm talking about ``factoring the modulus'' or a ``breakthrough in factoring'', what i really mean is a breakthrough in the cryptanalysis of rsa. i know that factoring and breaking rsa are not proven to be equivalent; it's just so damn convenient not to repeat this every time. i also have to admit that i don't really know if the ``non-group'' property of a cipher is essential only for key chaining. i have thought about it a little while, but i can't find a way that a cryptanalyst could exploit a group structure. that, of course, means nothing at all. then i wrote, please note that as long as it is much harder to factor a rsa modulus than it is to generate it, the increase in computer speed alone will keep key lengths and modulus factoring in lock-step, i.e., people will simply start using longer moduli and still be safe. what i meant was that as long as the only advantage of the cryptanalyst is a faster computer, then we will probably have rsa for a long time to come, because even if 1024-bit moduli somehow could be broken with fast computers (not with a new algorithm), then people would simply use longer moduli. both users and cryptanalysts benefit from better technology in the same way. hope this keeps the flames away... have fun. stephan <neuhaus@informatik.uni-kl.de> sig closed for inventory. please leave your pickaxe outside. pgp 2.2 public key available on request. note the expiration date. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt14991">
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 i got a number of requests for code. so, here it is. its written in 80x86 asm. borland tasm will do. tasm lga.asm tlink /t lga.asm the code: ; lga ncryption ; (c) by nick nassuphis code segment assume cs:code, ds:code org 100h start: jmp begin ; gas particle assigment: ; bit 0 particle moving east ; bit 1 particle moving west ; bit 2 particle moving north ; bit 3 particle moving south ; bit 4 particle moving east ; bit 5 particle moving west ; bit 6 particle moving north ; bit 7 particle moving south ; collisiong rules: ; 1. gas rules ; if (e & w) and !(n & s) then (e,w)->(n,s) ; if (n & s) and !(e & w) then (n,s)->(e,w) ; for nibbles: ; 1100 -> 0011 ; 0011 -> 0011 ; and for bytes: ; 11000000 -> 00110000 ; 00110000 -> 11000000 ; 00001100 -> 00000011 ; 00000011 -> 00001100 ; 00110011 -> 11001100 ; 00111100 -> 11000011 ; 11000011 -> 00111100 ; 11001100 -> 00110011 ; 2. reflection rules ; just swap bits along directions ; this look-up table implements two particle collisions ; for the hpp lattice gas hpprule: db 00000000b ;00000000 db 00000001b ;00000001 db 00000010b ;00000010 db 00001100b ;00000011 db 00000100b ;00000100 db 00000101b ;00000101 db 00000110b ;00000110 db 00000111b ;00000111 db 00001000b ;00001000 db 00001001b ;00001001 db 00001010b ;00001010 db 00001011b ;00001011 db 00000011b ;00001100 db 00001101b ;00001101 db 00001110b ;00001110 db 00001111b ;00001111 db 00010000b ;00010000 db 00010001b ;00010001 db 00010010b ;00010010 db 00011100b ;00010011 db 00010100b ;00010100 db 00010101b ;00010101 db 00010110b ;00010110 db 00010111b ;00010111 db 00011000b ;00011000 db 00011001b ;00011001 db 00011010b ;00011010 db 00011011b ;00011011 db 00010011b ;00011100 db 00011101b ;00011101 db 00011110b ;00011110 db 00011111b ;00011111 db 00100000b ;00100000 db 00100001b ;00100001 db 00100010b ;00100010 db 00101100b ;00100011 db 00100100b ;00100100 db 00100101b ;00100101 db 00100110b ;00100110 db 00100111b ;00100111 db 00101000b ;00101000 db 00101001b ;00101001 db 00101010b ;00101010 db 00101011b ;00101011 db 00100011b ;00101100 db 00101101b ;00101101 db 00101110b ;00101110 db 00101111b ;00101111 db 11000000b ;00110000 db 11000001b ;00110001 db 11000010b ;00110010 db 11001100b ;00110011 db 11000100b ;00110100 db 11000101b ;00110101 db 11000110b ;00110110 db 11000111b ;00110111 db 11001000b ;00111000 db 11001001b ;00111001 db 11001010b ;00111010 db 11001011b ;00111011 db 11000011b ;00111100 db 11001101b ;00111101 db 11001110b ;00111110 db 11001111b ;00111111 db 01000000b ;01000000 db 01000001b ;01000001 db 01000010b ;01000010 db 01001100b ;01000011 db 01000100b ;01000100 db 01000101b ;01000101 db 01000110b ;01000110 db 01000111b ;01000111 db 01001000b ;01001000 db 01001001b ;01001001 db 01001010b ;01001010 db 01001011b ;01001011 db 01000011b ;01001100 db 01001101b ;01001101 db 01001110b ;01001110 db 01001111b ;01001111 db 01010000b ;01010000 db 01010001b ;01010001 db 01010010b ;01010010 db 01011100b ;01010011 db 01010100b ;01010100 db 01010101b ;01010101 db 01010110b ;01010110 db 01010111b ;01010111 db 01011000b ;01011000 db 01011001b ;01011001 db 01011010b ;01011010 db 01011011b ;01011011 db 01010011b ;01011100 db 01011101b ;01011101 db 01011110b ;01011110 db 01011111b ;01011111 db 01100000b ;01100000 db 01100001b ;01100001 db 01100010b ;01100010 db 01101100b ;01100011 db 01100100b ;01100100 db 01100101b ;01100101 db 01100110b ;01100110 db 01100111b ;01100111 db 01101000b ;01101000 db 01101001b ;01101001 db 01101010b ;01101010 db 01101011b ;01101011 db 01100011b ;01101100 db 01101101b ;01101101 db 01101110b ;01101110 db 01101111b ;01101111 db 01110000b ;01110000 db 01110001b ;01110001 db 01110010b ;01110010 db 01111100b ;01110011 db 01110100b ;01110100 db 01110101b ;01110101 db 01110110b ;01110110 db 01110111b ;01110111 db 01111000b ;01111000 db 01111001b ;01111001 db 01111010b ;01111010 db 01111011b ;01111011 db 01110011b ;01111100 db 01111101b ;01111101 db 01111110b ;01111110 db 01111111b ;01111111 db 10000000b ;10000000 db 10000001b ;10000001 db 10000010b ;10000010 db 10001100b ;10000011 db 10000100b ;10000100 db 10000101b ;10000101 db 10000110b ;10000110 db 10000111b ;10000111 db 10001000b ;10001000 db 10001001b ;10001001 db 10001010b ;10001010 db 10001011b ;10001011 db 10000011b ;10001100 db 10001101b ;10001101 db 10001110b ;10001110 db 10001111b ;10001111 db 10010000b ;10010000 db 10010001b ;10010001 db 10010010b ;10010010 db 10011100b ;10010011 db 10010100b ;10010100 db 10010101b ;10010101 db 10010110b ;10010110 db 10010111b ;10010111 db 10011000b ;10011000 db 10011001b ;10011001 db 10011010b ;10011010 db 10011011b ;10011011 db 10010011b ;10011100 db 10011101b ;10011101 db 10011110b ;10011110 db 10011111b ;10011111 db 10100000b ;10100000 db 10100001b ;10100001 db 10100010b ;10100010 db 10101100b ;10100011 db 10100100b ;10100100 db 10100101b ;10100101 db 10100110b ;10100110 db 10100111b ;10100111 db 10101000b ;10101000 db 10101001b ;10101001 db 10101010b ;10101010 db 10101011b ;10101011 db 10100011b ;10101100 db 10101101b ;10101101 db 10101110b ;10101110 db 10101111b ;10101111 db 10110000b ;10110000 db 10110001b ;10110001 db 10110010b ;10110010 db 10111100b ;10110011 db 10110100b ;10110100 db 10110101b ;10110101 db 10110110b ;10110110 db 10110111b ;10110111 db 10111000b ;10111000 db 10111001b ;10111001 db 10111010b ;10111010 db 10111011b ;10111011 db 10110011b ;10111100 db 10111101b ;10111101 db 10111110b ;10111110 db 10111111b ;10111111 db 00110000b ;11000000 db 00110001b ;11000001 db 00110010b ;11000010 db 00111100b ;11000011 db 00110100b ;11000100 db 00110101b ;11000101 db 00110110b ;11000110 db 00110111b ;11000111 db 00111000b ;11001000 db 00111001b ;11001001 db 00111010b ;11001010 db 00111011b ;11001011 db 00110011b ;11001100 db 00111101b ;11001101 db 00111110b ;11001110 db 00111111b ;11001111 db 11010000b ;11010000 db 11010001b ;11010001 db 11010010b ;11010010 db 11011100b ;11010011 db 11010100b ;11010100 db 11010101b ;11010101 db 11010110b ;11010110 db 11010111b ;11010111 db 11011000b ;11011000 db 11011001b ;11011001 db 11011010b ;11011010 db 11011011b ;11011011 db 11010011b ;11011100 db 11011101b ;11011101 db 11011110b ;11011110 db 11011111b ;11011111 db 11100000b ;11100000 db 11100001b ;11100001 db 11100010b ;11100010 db 11101100b ;11100011 db 11100100b ;11100100 db 11100101b ;11100101 db 11100110b ;11100110 db 11100111b ;11100111 db 11101000b ;11101000 db 11101001b ;11101001 db 11101010b ;11101010 db 11101011b ;11101011 db 11100011b ;11101100 db 11101101b ;11101101 db 11101110b ;11101110 db 11101111b ;11101111 db 11110000b ;11110000 db 11110001b ;11110001 db 11110010b ;11110010 db 11111100b ;11110011 db 11110100b ;11110100 db 11110101b ;11110101 db 11110110b ;11110110 db 11110111b ;11110111 db 11111000b ;11111000 db 11111001b ;11111001 db 11111010b ;11111010 db 11111011b ;11111011 db 11110011b ;11111100 db 11111101b ;11111101 db 11111110b ;11111110 db 11111111b ;11111111 ; this rule implements the velocity-reversal needed to ; run the gas evolution in reverse. its called a wallrule ; because its the same as is all particles hit a wall ; head on. wallrule: db 00000000b ;00000000 db 00000010b ;00000001 db 00000001b ;00000010 db 00001100b ;00000011 db 00001000b ;00000100 db 00001010b ;00000101 db 00001001b ;00000110 db 00001011b ;00000111 db 00000100b ;00001000 db 00000110b ;00001001 db 00000101b ;00001010 db 00000111b ;00001011 db 00000011b ;00001100 db 00001110b ;00001101 db 00001101b ;00001110 db 00001111b ;00001111 db 00100000b ;00010000 db 00100010b ;00010001 db 00100001b ;00010010 db 00101100b ;00010011 db 00101000b ;00010100 db 00101010b ;00010101 db 00101001b ;00010110 db 00101011b ;00010111 db 00100100b ;00011000 db 00100110b ;00011001 db 00100101b ;00011010 db 00100111b ;00011011 db 00100011b ;00011100 db 00101110b ;00011101 db 00101101b ;00011110 db 00101111b ;00011111 db 00010000b ;00100000 db 00010010b ;00100001 db 00010001b ;00100010 db 00011100b ;00100011 db 00011000b ;00100100 db 00011010b ;00100101 db 00011001b ;00100110 db 00011011b ;00100111 db 00010100b ;00101000 db 00010110b ;00101001 db 00010101b ;00101010 db 00010111b ;00101011 db 00010011b ;00101100 db 00011110b ;00101101 db 00011101b ;00101110 db 00011111b ;00101111 db 11000000b ;00110000 db 11000010b ;00110001 db 11000001b ;00110010 db 11001100b ;00110011 db 11001000b ;00110100 db 11001010b ;00110101 db 11001001b ;00110110 db 11001011b ;00110111 db 11000100b ;00111000 db 11000110b ;00111001 db 11000101b ;00111010 db 11000111b ;00111011 db 11000011b ;00111100 db 11001110b ;00111101 db 11001101b ;00111110 db 11001111b ;00111111 db 10000000b ;01000000 db 10000010b ;01000001 db 10000001b ;01000010 db 10001100b ;01000011 db 10001000b ;01000100 db 10001010b ;01000101 db 10001001b ;01000110 db 10001011b ;01000111 db 10000100b ;01001000 db 10000110b ;01001001 db 10000101b ;01001010 db 10000111b ;01001011 db 10000011b ;01001100 db 10001110b ;01001101 db 10001101b ;01001110 db 10001111b ;01001111 db 10100000b ;01010000 db 10100010b ;01010001 db 10100001b ;01010010 db 10101100b ;01010011 db 10101000b ;01010100 db 10101010b ;01010101 db 10101001b ;01010110 db 10101011b ;01010111 db 10100100b ;01011000 db 10100110b ;01011001 db 10100101b ;01011010 db 10100111b ;01011011 db 10100011b ;01011100 db 10101110b ;01011101 db 10101101b ;01011110 db 10101111b ;01011111 db 10010000b ;01100000 db 10010010b ;01100001 db 10010001b ;01100010 db 10011100b ;01100011 db 10011000b ;01100100 db 10011010b ;01100101 db 10011001b ;01100110 db 10011011b ;01100111 db 10010100b ;01101000 db 10010110b ;01101001 db 10010101b ;01101010 db 10010111b ;01101011 db 10010011b ;01101100 db 10011110b ;01101101 db 10011101b ;01101110 db 10011111b ;01101111 db 10110000b ;01110000 db 10110010b ;01110001 db 10110001b ;01110010 db 10111100b ;01110011 db 10111000b ;01110100 db 10111010b ;01110101 db 10111001b ;01110110 db 10111011b ;01110111 db 10110100b ;01111000 db 10110110b ;01111001 db 10110101b ;01111010 db 10110111b ;01111011 db 10110011b ;01111100 db 10111110b ;01111101 db 10111101b ;01111110 db 10111111b ;01111111 db 01000000b ;10000000 db 01000010b ;10000001 db 01000001b ;10000010 db 01001100b ;10000011 db 01001000b ;10000100 db 01001010b ;10000101 db 01001001b ;10000110 db 01001011b ;10000111 db 01000100b ;10001000 db 01000110b ;10001001 db 01000101b ;10001010 db 01000111b ;10001011 db 01000011b ;10001100 db 01001110b ;10001101 db 01001101b ;10001110 db 01001111b ;10001111 db 01100000b ;10010000 db 01100010b ;10010001 db 01100001b ;10010010 db 01101100b ;10010011 db 01101000b ;10010100 db 01101010b ;10010101 db 01101001b ;10010110 db 01101011b ;10010111 db 01100100b ;10011000 db 01100110b ;10011001 db 01100101b ;10011010 db 01100111b ;10011011 db 01100011b ;10011100 db 01101110b ;10011101 db 01101101b ;10011110 db 01101111b ;10011111 db 01010000b ;10100000 db 01010010b ;10100001 db 01010001b ;10100010 db 01011100b ;10100011 db 01011000b ;10100100 db 01011010b ;10100101 db 01011001b ;10100110 db 01011011b ;10100111 db 01010100b ;10101000 db 01010110b ;10101001 db 01010101b ;10101010 db 01010111b ;10101011 db 01010011b ;10101100 db 01011110b ;10101101 db 01011101b ;10101110 db 01011111b ;10101111 db 01110000b ;10110000 db 01110010b ;10110001 db 01110001b ;10110010 db 01111100b ;10110011 db 01111000b ;10110100 db 01111010b ;10110101 db 01111001b ;10110110 db 01111011b ;10110111 db 01110100b ;10111000 db 01110110b ;10111001 db 01110101b ;10111010 db 01110111b ;10111011 db 01110011b ;10111100 db 01111110b ;10111101 db 01111101b ;10111110 db 01111111b ;10111111 db 00110000b ;11000000 db 00110010b ;11000001 db 00110001b ;11000010 db 00111100b ;11000011 db 00111000b ;11000100 db 00111010b ;11000101 db 00111001b ;11000110 db 00111011b ;11000111 db 00110100b ;11001000 db 00110110b ;11001001 db 00110101b ;11001010 db 00110111b ;11001011 db 00110011b ;11001100 db 00111110b ;11001101 db 00111101b ;11001110 db 00111111b ;11001111 db 11100000b ;11010000 db 11100010b ;11010001 db 11100001b ;11010010 db 11101100b ;11010011 db 11101000b ;11010100 db 11101010b ;11010101 db 11101001b ;11010110 db 11101011b ;11010111 db 11100100b ;11011000 db 11100110b ;11011001 db 11100101b ;11011010 db 11100111b ;11011011 db 11100011b ;11011100 db 11101110b ;11011101 db 11101101b ;11011110 db 11101111b ;11011111 db 11010000b ;11100000 db 11010010b ;11100001 db 11010001b ;11100010 db 11011100b ;11100011 db 11011000b ;11100100 db 11011010b ;11100101 db 11011001b ;11100110 db 11011011b ;11100111 db 11010100b ;11101000 db 11010110b ;11101001 db 11010101b ;11101010 db 11010111b ;11101011 db 11010011b ;11101100 db 11011110b ;11101101 db 11011101b ;11101110 db 11011111b ;11101111 db 11110000b ;11110000 db 11110010b ;11110001 db 11110001b ;11110010 db 11111100b ;11110011 db 11111000b ;11110100 db 11111010b ;11110101 db 11111001b ;11110110 db 11111011b ;11110111 db 11110100b ;11111000 db 11110110b ;11111001 db 11110101b ;11111010 db 11110111b ;11111011 db 11110011b ;11111100 db 11111110b ;11111101 db 11111101b ;11111110 db 11111111b ;11111111 maxbyte equ 55 lineno equ 23 srcptr dw offset buffer1 desptr dw offset buffer2 savebuff: db maxbyte*(lineno+1) dup(0) buffer1: db maxbyte*(lineno+1) dup(0) db 256 dup(0) buffer2: db maxbyte*(lineno+1) dup(0) db 256 dup(0) data: db " " db " " db " " db " this is a test for a lattice gas based encryption " db " algorithm. the data is encoded as particles of a " db " digital gas, whose time evolution is then simulated " db " with a cellular-automaton type algorithm. decryption " db " can be achieved by running the simulation in reverse. " db " a thermodynamic argument ensures that even if a single" db " bit is flipped, no decryption of the data is possible " db " " db " after the gas is let to evolve for 256 timesteps, " db " one can either run the reverse evolution by pressing " db " space, or flip a bit and then run by pressing '0' " db " " db " for a cryptographic application, the key would consist" db " of the number of time steps and the time and location " db " of specific bit inversions. " db " " db " " db " " db " " db " " ; fill the gas with a piece of code initgas: mov di,cs:srcptr mov si,offset data mov cx,lineno ig0: push di push cx mov cx,maxbyte ig1: mov al,cs:[si] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di loop ig1 pop cx pop di add di,maxbyte loop ig0 mov si,cs:srcptr mov di,offset initgas mov cx,maxbyte*3 mov al,0 lg2: mov byte ptr cs:[si],al not al inc si loop lg2 ; display gas molecules bouncing around showgas: push es push si push di push cx push bx mov ax,0b800h mov es,ax mov si,cs:srcptr mov di,160*2+10*2 mov cx,lineno-3 add si,maxbyte*3 sg1: push cx push di mov cx,maxbyte sg2: mov al,cs:[si] mov byte ptr es:[di],al inc si add di,2 dec cx jnz sg2 pop di pop cx add di,160 loop sg1 pop bx pop cx pop di pop si pop es ; cs:si -> sourse of data ; cs:di -> destination of data scanonemiddleline: ; first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] ; north is one line "up" (lower) and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] ; south is one line "down" (higher) and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si+(maxbyte-1)] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di ; middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx,maxbyte-2 sol1: mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] ; north is one line "up" (lower) and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] ; south is one line "down" (higher) and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di loop sol1 ; last byte is also special mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] ; north is one line "up" (lower) and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] ; south is one line "down" (higher) and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si-(maxbyte-1)] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di ; cs:si -> sourse of data ; cs:di -> destination of data scanfirstline: ; first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl,0 mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di ; middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx,maxbyte-2 sfl1: mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di loop sfl1 ; last byte is also special mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si+maxbyte] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si-(maxbyte-1)] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al ; cs:si -> sourse of data ; cs:di -> destination of data scanlastline: ; first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si+(maxbyte-1)] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di ; middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx,maxbyte-2 sll1: mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si+1] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di loop sll1 ; last byte is also special mov bl,0 ; al is the "assembled" byte. mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte] and bh,10001000b ; and at bits 7 and 3 or bl,bh ; or them into the assembled byte mov bh,cs:[si-maxbyte*(lineno-1)] and bh,01000100b ; and at bits 6 and 2 or bl,bh ; place the stuff into al mov bh,cs:[si-1] ; west is one byte "left" (lower) and bh,00100010b ; and at bits 5 and 1 or bl,bh mov bh,cs:[si-(maxbyte-1)] ; east is one byte "right" (higher) and bh,00010001b ; and at bits 4 and 0 or bl,bh mov bh,0 mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + offset hpprule] mov cs:[di],al inc si inc di ; invert all velocities in the gas invertall: push bx push cx push si mov si,cs:srcptr mov bx,0 mov cx,lineno ia1: push cx mov cx,maxbyte ia2: mov bl,cs:[si] mov al,byte ptr cs:[bx + (offset wallrule)] mov cs:[si],al inc si loop ia2 pop cx loop ia1 pop si pop cx pop bx iterateonce: mov si,cs:srcptr mov di,cs:desptr mov cs:srcptr,di mov cs:desptr,si push si push di call scanfirstline pop di pop si add si,maxbyte add di,maxbyte mov cx,lineno-2 ; dont scan first and last l1: push si push di push cx call scanonemiddleline pop cx pop di pop si add si,maxbyte add di,maxbyte loop l1 push si push di call scanlastline pop si pop di l3: ; iterate hpp rule cx times iterate: push cx call iterateonce pop cx call showgas loop iterate ; iterate hpp rule cx times iterateuntil: mov si,0 mov cx,offset iu4 - offset iu3 iu00: mov al,byte ptr cs:[si + offset iu3] xor byte ptr cs:[si + offset iu4],al inc si loop iu00 iu0: call iterateonce call showgas mov si,cs:srcptr mov cx,maxbyte*3 mov bx,0 mov ah,0 mov al,255 iu1: mov bl,byte ptr cs:[si] mov dl,byte ptr cs:[bx+wallrule] not ah xor dl,ah and al,dl inc si loop iu1 mov si,0 mov cx,offset iu4 - offset iu3 iu2: mov ah,byte ptr cs:[si+offset iu4] and ah,al xor byte ptr cs:[si+offset iu3],ah inc si loop iu2 jmp iu3 iu3: mov ax,offset iu0 push ax db 256 dup(90h) iu4: push ax push bx push cx push dx push ds mov ah,9 mov dx,cs:msgptr int 21h pop ds pop dx pop cx pop bx pop ax db 512 dup(90h) msgptr dw offset msg msg db "this message is printed out by",10,13 db "code decrypted using data from the lattice",10,13 db "which was applied to the decoding routine",10,13 db "after every time step",10,13 db "the decoding function left the code unchanged",10,13 db "except after the gas evolution had completelly",10,13 db "reversed the thermalization",10,13,"$" times equ 16 ; 256 repetitions are enough to ; "equilibrate" the gas begin: mov ax,0600h mov bh,7 mov dh,25 mov dl,80 mov cx,0 int 10h mov ah,2 mov bh,0 mov dh,24 mov dl,0 int 10h call initgas call showgas mov ah,0 int 16h push cx mov cx,times call iterate call invertall call showgas mov ah,0 int 16h cmp al,"0" jne begin0 mov si,cs:srcptr xor byte ptr cs:[si],10000001b begin0: mov cx,times call iterateuntil call invertall call showgas mov ax,4c00h int 21h code ends end start 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt14994">
<answer instance="sci.crypt14994" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 it is interesting to note in this regard that permission to export pkzip's encryption scheme has twice been denied by nsa. draw you own uh, i'm afraid that your information is slightly out of date... pkware has obtained a license to export their program to the whole world, except a very limited list of countries... draw your own conclusions about the strength of the algorithm... :-) vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn < pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt14996">
<answer instance="sci.crypt14996" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 this actually supports bill's speculation - if there is a backdoor in rsaref and if pkp is supported secretly by the nsa, then it is more than natural that they will welcome any public-key implementation that uses rsaref and will strongly oppose themselves against any implementation that doesn't. my speculation does not include or depend upon a trapdoor in rsaref. i do not believe that rsa would consent to such. however, there are other limitation in the concept of rsaref in which nsa has an interest. it has an interest in a limited number of implementations, i.e., targets. it has an interest in fixed key or maximum modulus size. it has a legitimate (literally) right to pursue such interests. within bounds, it probably has a right to pursue those interests by covert means. at least it has the same right as the rest of us not to disclose all of its motives and intentions. (institutions are not self-aware; they do not know their intentions in any meaningful sense.) william hugh murray, executive consultant, information system security 49 locust avenue, suite 104; new canaan, connecticut 06840 1-0-att-0-700-wmurray; whmurray at dockmaster.ncsc.mil 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt14997">
<answer instance="sci.crypt14997" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am looking for references to algorithms which can be used for password encryption. i.e., someone has a clear-text word, runs it through the algorithm, and it becomes some other sequence of symbols. i want this algorithm to have the property that it is a) next to impossible to reverse, and b) would take too long to try all possible words to see which one works (even by use of a high-speed computer). please send references or ideas to mlevin@husc8.harvard.edu. the original one-way encryption i put into multics about 1968 (as suggested by joe weizenbaum) was invertible. an air force tiger team demonstrated this to me in may 1973. i then asked an expert (who requested anonymity) what i should use instead; the expert's suggestion was to treat the 8-byte password as both key and data for the lucifer encryption algorithm, which is similar or identical to des. this method or something stronger should take care of (a). issue (b) is discussed in comp.security.misc: longer passwords and quality control on what users can choose as passwords are the common tactics. tom_vanvleck@taligent.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt14999">
<answer instance="sci.crypt14999" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 how about this. i create a bunch of sets of random data, and encrypt it. i keep only one of the sets of random data around, to show that i encypt random data for kicks. the rest, i delete with their keys. i tell all my friends. i think this establishes reasonable doubt about the contents of any encrypted files, and my ability to provides keys. since anyone could do this, any law that forces a user to provide keys on demand is worthless. the law is much worse than worthless. it gives police the power to put innocent people in jail because they (the police) find something they don't understand. most police don't know what the return key does, never mind the difference between a core file and classified military secrets. there are plenty of scenarios where the user would have no idea what something is either. it could be uninitialized junk. the burden of proof is on the user to show that it's something a normal upstanding citizen should have. no one should ever be put in that situation, especially in america. what's disgusting about this is how easily most people go along with it, to provide a bargaining chip against some hypothetical *alleged* child molester or drug dealer, or whatever bad thing is in style at the time. basically most people don't have a clear distinction between criminals and suspects. as an analogy, it's like they find a loose screw in your house, and they insist that you're building a bomb or machine gun. they ask you where it came from (like you'd know), and ask you to prove your claim. when you explain it in such simple terms, people may start to get the idea. as a matter of fact, i do keep random files on my disk. the reason is, without special-purpose hardware, it takes a long time to generate good random bits. i have programs that crank out a couple bits per minute, which is pretty conservative, but over time that's more than i need. if you think about it, there's no point in actually encrypting random data, because it just gives you different random data. if you want some data to look like an encrypted file, you just put an appropriate header on it. if enough people do this, some of them will be put in jail. when you get arrested and the police ask for your keys, you can tell them it's just random junk, although of course they won't believe you. while you're sitting in jail, you can take consolation in the fact that the government will burn a few cpu-years trying to find something that's not there. joe keane, amateur cryptologist jgk@osc.com (uunet!amdcad!osc!jgk) 
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 this came up because i decided to configure up mit-magic-cookie-1 security for x11r5. for this to work you need to stick some bits that an intruder can't guess in a file (readable only by you) which x client applications read. they pass the bits back to the server when they want to establish a what i settled on was grabbing a bunch of traffic off the network. basically, i ran etherfind -u -x greater 0|compress and skipped over 10k of output, then grabbed my bits. as best i can tell, these are bits that can be expected to be reasonably uniformly distributed, and quite unguessable by an intruder. for your application, what you can do is to encrypt the real-time clock value with a secret key. 
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 i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self-incriminating? e.g. the police couldn't demand that you silently take them to where the body is buried or where the money is hidden. but they can make you piss in a jar, and possibly provide dna, semen, and hair samples or to undergo tests for gunpowder residues on your hand. (btw, that was why the chemical engineer arrested in the wtc explosion thrust his hands into a toilet filled with urine as the cops were breaking down the door -- the nitrogen in the urine would mask any residue from explosives. i found it interesting the news reported his acts, but not his reasons). somewhere, perhaps a privacy group, they discussed the legal ramifications of using a password like i shot jimmy hoffa and his body is in a storage locker in camden a while back. the impression i got was that real judges would dismiss arguments that this password is self-incrimination as first-year law school sophistry -- the fact that you use a statement for a password has no bearing on the veracity of that phrase. you are not being asked to incrimidate yourself (e.g., "where did you bury the body?"); you are being asked to provide information necessary to execute a legal search warrant. refusing to provide the password is akin to refusing to provide a key to a storage locker... except that they could always _force_ their way into the locker. of course, that doesn't mean you have to help them _understand_ what they find, or point out things they overlooked in their search! bear giles bear@fsl.noaa.gov 
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 1. do a straight encryption of your keyrings and put the results with misleading names somewhere they won't be noticed (eg. in the \windows directory; nobody knows what half those files are). 2. do a straight encryption of a .bat file that will decrypt the keyrings to ramdisk and will set pgppath to point at it. 3. set up another .bat file to decrypt and execute the first (again on ram disk). have it take the name of the target file as an argument so that there is no link between this file and the (non-existent) batch file referred to by the rest of the system. comment it so it looks like a test script for fooling around with pgp. set pgppath to the pgp directory. 4. leave the original keyrings that came with pgp in the directory with pgp; a good indication that you are playing with, but haven't made serious use of pgp. add a set of keys with your name and a really simple passphrase. never use it, or use it as your widely published key for low-security e-mail. 5. when needed, run the second .bat file. make sure all intermediate and plainfiles are generated on ramdisk. 6. when you hear the concussion grenade, hit the power switch. marc thibault | cis:71441,2226 | put another log marc@tanda.isis.org | nc freenet: aa185 | on the fire. -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.0 mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao+hihtnefrrn+vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n+lftpnnlc42ms+c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc+ =hlnv -----end pgp public key block----- 
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 *** source code to macintosh pgp 2.2 now available via anonymous ftp *** ftp netcom.com cd pub/grady mget macpgp2.2src.sea.hqx mget macpgp2.2srcsignature convert to a compact pro self-extracting archive with binhex 4.0. if appropriate, check the digital signature of the .hqx file with your copy of pgp. (non-macintosh users wishing to check the digital signature please note that 'cr' denotes the end-of-line on a macintosh, not 'lf' or 'crlf'.) for the purposes of the itar act, this 'unclassified technical documentation' is hereby released into the public domain. (however no representation is made as to copyright or other commercial rights that may exist in this package.) full source code, symantec think c 5.0.4 projects and full user documentation is included for both 68020 and 68000 versions of pretty good privacy, a strong public key encryption and digital signature application using the rsa algorithm patented in the united states and the idea cipher patented in switzerland. no executables are included. executables are available via anonymous ftp from: leif.thep.lu.se (sweden) night.nig.ac.jp (japan) van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (canada) soda.berkeley.edu (p.r. of berkeley) src.doc.ic.ac.uk (united kingdom) ghost.dsi.unimi.it (italy) plaza.aarnet.edu.au (australia) nic.funet.fi (finland) other's public keys are available from anonymous server sites: (send message subject "help" for more information.) internet sites: pgp-public-keys@junkbox.cc.iastate.edu michael graff explorer@iastate.edu ftp: tbird.cc.iastate.edu:/usr/explorer/public-keys.pgp pgp-public-keys@toxicwaste.mit.edu derek atkins warlord@mit.edu ftp: toxicwaste.mit.edu:/pub/keys/public-keys.pgp pgp-public-keys@phil.utmb.edu john perry perry@phil.utmb.edu ftp: phil.utmb.edu:/pub/pgp/public-keys.pgp pgp-public-keys@demon.co.uk mark turner mark@demon.co.uk ftp: ftp.demon.co.uk:/pub/pgp/pubring.pgp uucp site: pgp-public-keys@jpunix.com john perry perry@jpunix.com the executable application built from these sources has not been licensed by rsa data security, inc. nor has the rsa public key algorithm or the idea block cipher algorithm been approved by the national security agency. this unclassified technical documentation is made available for educational use only; possession, distribution, or use of an executable binary built from this source may be a civil or criminal suggested improvements, bugs, or comments should be directly posted to alt.security.pgp or to the principal developers listed among the source documents. general questions and comments about public key cryptography or the idea cipher may be posted to alt.security.pgp or to the sci.crypt usenet groups. grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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 archive-name: net-privacy/part1 last-modified: 1993/3/3 version: 2.1 identity, privacy, and anonymity on the internet (c) 1993 l. detweiler. not for commercial use except by permission from author, otherwise may be freely copied. not to be altered. please credit if quoted. information on email and account privacy, anonymous mailing and posting, encryption, and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general. (search for <#.#> for exact section. search for '_' (underline) for next section.) part 1 ====== (this file) <1.1> what is `identity' on the internet? <1.2> why is identity (un)important on the internet? <1.3> how does my email address (not) identify me and my background? <1.4> how can i find out more about somebody from their email address? <1.5> why is identification (un)stable on the internet? <1.6> what is the future of identification on the internet? <2.1> what is `privacy' on the internet? <2.2> why is privacy (un)important on the internet? <2.3> how (in)secure are internet networks? <2.4> how (in)secure is my account? <2.5> how (in)secure are my files and directories? <2.6> how (in)secure is x windows? <2.7> how (in)secure is my email? <2.8> how am i (not) liable for my email and postings? <2.9> how do i provide more/less information to others on my identity? <2.10> who is my sysadmin? what does s/he know about me? <2.11> why is privacy (un)stable on the internet? <2.12> what is the future of privacy on the internet? <3.1> what is `anonymity' on the internet? <3.2> why is `anonymity' (un)important on the internet? <3.3> how can anonymity be protected on the internet? <3.4> what is `anonymous mail'? <3.5> what is `anonymous posting'? <3.6> why is anonymity (un)stable on the internet? <3.7> what is the future of anonymity on the internet? part 2 ====== (next file) <4.1> what unix programs are related to privacy? <4.2> how can i learn about or use cryptography? <4.3> what is the cypherpunks mailing list? <4.4> what are some privacy-related newsgroups? faqs? <4.5> what is internet privacy enhanced mail (pem)? <4.6> what are other request for comments (rfcs) related to privacy? <4.7> how can i run an anonymous remailer? <4.8> what are references on privacy in email? <4.9> what are some email, usenet, and internet use policies? <4.10> what is the mit ``crosslink'' anonymous message tv program? <5.1> what is ``digital cash''? <5.2> what is a ``hacker'' or ``cracker''? <5.3> what is a ``cypherpunk''? <5.4> what is `steganography' and anonymous pools? <5.5> what is `security through obscurity'? <5.6> what are `identity daemons'? <5.7> what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy? <6.1> what is the electronic frontier foundation (eff)? <6.2> who are computer professionals for social responsibility (cpsr)? <6.3> what was `operation sun devil' and the steve jackson game case? <6.4> what is integrated services digital network (isdn)? <6.5> what is the national research and education network (nren)? <6.6> what is the fbi's proposed digital telephony act? <6.7> what other u.s. legislation is related to privacy on networks? <6.8> what are references on rights in cyberspace? <6.9> what is the computers and academic freedom (caf) archive? <7.1> what is the background behind the internet? <7.2> how is internet `anarchy' like the english language? <7.3> most wanted list <7.4> change history part 3 ====== (last file) <8.1> what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites? <8.2> what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity? <8.3> how do i `kill' anonymous postings? <8.4> what is the history behind anonymous posting servers? <8.5> what is the value of anonymity? <8.6> should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed? <8.7> what should system operators do with anonymous postings? <8.8> what is going on with anon.penet.fi maintained by j. helsingius? <1.1> what is `identity' on the internet? generally, today people's `identity' on the internet is primarily determined by their email address in the sense that this is their most unchanging 'face' in the electronic realm. this is your login name qualified by the complete address domain information, for example ``ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu''. people see this address when receiving mail or reading usenet posts from you and in other situations where programs record usage. some obsolete forms of addresses (such as bitnet) still persist. in email messages, additional information on the path that a message takes is prepended to the message received by the recipient. this information identifies the chain of hosts involved in the transmission and is a very accurate trace of its origination. this type of identify-and-forward protocol is also used in the usenet protocol to a lesser extent. forging these fields requires corrupted mailing software at sites involved in the forwarding and is very uncommon. not so uncommon is forging the chain at the origination point, so that all initial sites in the list are faked at the time the message is created. tracing these messages can be difficult or impossible when the initial faked fields are names of real machines and represent real transfer routes. <1.2> why is identity (un)important on the internet? the concept of identity is closely intertwined with communication, privacy, and security, which in turn are all critical aspects of computer networks. for example, the convenience of communication afforded by email would be impossible without conventions for identification. but there are many potential abuses of identity possible that can have very severe consequences, with massive computer networks at the forefront of the issue, which can potentially either exacerbate or solve these problems. verifying that an identity is correct is called `authentication', and one classic example of the problems associated with it is h.g.well's ``war of the worlds'' radio broadcast that fooled segments of the population into thinking that an alien invasion was in progress. hoaxes of this order are not uncommon on usenet and forged identities makes them more insidious. people and their reputations can be assaulted by forgery. however, the fluidity of identity on the internet is for some one of its most attractive features. identity is just as useful as it is harmful. a professor might carefully explain a topic until he finds he is talking to an undergraduate. a person of a particular occupation may be able to converse with others who might normally shun him. some prejudices are erased, but, on the other hand, many prejudices are useful! a scientist might argue he can better evaluate the findings of a paper as a reviewer if he knows more about the authors. likewise, he may be more likely to reject it based on unfair or irrelevant criteria. on the other side of the connection, the author may find identities of reviewers useful in exerting pressure for acceptance. identity is especially crucial in establishing and regulating `credit' (not necessarily financial) and `ownership' and `usage'. many functions in society demand reliable and accurate techniques for identification. heavy reliance will be placed on digital authentication as global economies become increasingly electronic. many government functions and services are based on identification, and law enforcement frequently hinges on it. hence, employees of many government organizations push toward stronger identification structures. but when does identification invade privacy? the growth of the internet is provoking social forces of massive proportions. decisions made now on issues of identity will affect many future users, especially as the network becomes increasingly global, universal, widespread, and entrenched; and the positive or adverse affects of these actions, intended and inadvertent, will literally be magnified exponentially. <1.3> how does my email address (not) identify me and my background? your email address may contain information that influences people's perceptions of your background. the address may `identify' you as from a department at a particular university, an employee at a company, or a government worker. it may contain your last name, initials, or cryptic identification codes independent of both. in the us some are based on parts of social security numbers. others are in the form 'u2338' where the number is incremented in the order that new users are added to the system. standard internet addresses also can contain information on your broad geographical location or nationhood. however, none of this information is guaranteed to be correct or be there at all. the fields in the domain qualification of the username are based on rather arbitrary organization, such as (mostly invisible) network cabling distributions. the only point to make is that early fields in the address are more specific (such as specific computer names or local networks) and the later ones the most general (such as continental domains). typically the first field is the name of the computer receiving mail. gleaning information from the email address alone is sometimes an inspired art or an inconsistent and futile exercise. (for more information, see the faqs on email addresses and known geographical distributions below.) however, unix utilities exist to aid in the quest (see the question on this). common suffixes .us united states .uk united kingdom .ca canada .fi finland .au australia .edu university or college .com commercial organization .org 'other' (e.g. nonprofit organization) .gov government .mil military site <1.4> how can i find out more about somebody with a given email address? one simple way is to send email to that address, asking. another way is to send mail to the postmaster at that address (i.e. postmaster@address), although the postmaster's job is more to help find user id's of particular people given their real name and solve mail routing problems. the sysadmin (i.e. `root@address') may also be able to supply information. users with related email address may have information. however, all of these methods rely on the time and patience of others so use them minimally. one of the most basic tools for determining identity over the internet is the unix utility 'finger'. the basic syntax is: finger user@here.there.everywhere this utility uses communication protocols to query the computer named in the address for information on the user named. the response is generated completely by the receiving computer and may be in any format. possible responses are as follows: - a message `unknown host' meaning some aspect of the address is incorrect, two lines with no information and '???'. - a message 'in real life: ???' in which case the receiving computer could not find any kind of a match on the username. the finger utility may return this response in other situations. - a listing of information associated with multiple users. some computers will search only for matching user ids, others will attempt to find the username you specified as a substring of all actual full names of users kept in a local database. at some sites 'finger' can be used to get a list of all users on the system with a `finger @address'. in general this is often considered weak security, however, because `attackers' know valid user id's to `crack' passwords. more information on the fields returned by `finger' is given below. more information on `finger' and locating people's email addresses is given in the email faq (such as the whois lookup utility). just as you can use these means to find out about others, they can use them to find out about you. you can `finger' yourself to find out what is publicly reported by your unix system about you. be careful when modifying `finger' data; virtually anyone with internet access worldwide can query this information. in one amazing case, the new york times writer j. markoff uncovered the identity of r. morris, author of the internet worm, through the use of an anonymous tip and 'finger'. see the book cyberspace by k. hafner and j. markoff. <1.5> why is identification (un)stable on the internet? generally, identity is an amorphous and almost nonexistent concept on the internet for a variety of reasons. one is the inherent fluidity of `cyberspace' where people emerge and submerge frequently, and absences are not readily noted in the `community'. most people remember faces and voices, the primary means of casual identification in the 'real world'. the arbitary and cryptic sequences of letters and digits comprising most email addresses are not particularly noticeable or memorable and far from a unique identification of an individual, who may use multiple accounts on multiple machines anywhere in the world. currently internet users do not really have any great assurances that the messages in email and usenet are from who they appear to be. a person's mailing address is far from an identification of an - anyone with access to the account, e.g. they know the password, either legitimately or otherwise, can send mail with that address in the from: line. - email addresses for an individual tend to change frequently as they switch jobs or make moves inside their organizations. - as part of current mailing protocol standards, forging the from: line in mail messages is a fairly trivial operation for many the status and path information prepended to messages by intermediate hosts is generally unforgeable. in general, while possible, forgeries are fairly rare on most newsgroups and in email. besides these pathological cases abve there are many basic problems with today's internet protocols affecting identification on the internet: - internet mail standards, described in rfc-822, are still evolving rapidly and not entirely orderly. for example, standards for mail address `munging' or `parsing' tend to vary slightly between sites and frequently mean the difference between finding addresses and bouncing mail. - domain names and computer names are frequently changed at sites, and there are delays in the propagation of this data. - addresses cannot be resolved when certain critical computers crash, such as the receiving computer or other computers involved in resolving names into addresses called `nameservers'. - a whole slew of problems is associated with `nameservers'; if they are not updated they will not find name addresses, and even the operation of what constitutes `updating' has different interpretations at different sites. the current internet mailing and addressing protocols are slightly anachronistic in that they were created when the network was somewhat obscure and not widespread, with only a fraction of the traffic it now sees. today a large proportion of internet traffic is email, comprising millions of messages. <1.6> what is the future of identification on the internet? some new technologies and standards are introducing facial images and voice messages into mail and these will improve the sense of community that comes from the familiarity of identification. however, they are not currently widespread, require large amounts of data transfer, standardized software, and make some compromises in privacy. promising new cryptographic techniques may make 'digital signatures' and 'digital authentication' common (see below). also, the trend in usenet standards is toward greater authentication of posted information. on the other hand, advances in ensuring anonymity (such as remailers) are forthcoming. see below. <2.1> what is `privacy' on the internet? generally, while `privacy' has multiple connotations in society and perhaps even more on the internet, in cyberspace most take it to mean that you have exclusive use and access to your account and the data stored on and and directed to it (such as email), and you do not encounter arbitrary restrictions or searches. in other words, others may obtain data associated with your account, but not without your permission. these ideas are probably both fairly limiting and liberal in their scope in what most internet users consider their private domains. some users don't expect or want any privacy, some expect and demand it. <2.2> why is privacy (un)important on the internet? this is a somewhat debatable and inflammatory topic, arousing passionate opinions. on the internet, some take privacy for granted and are rudely surprised to find it tenuous or nonexistent. most governments have rules that protect privacy (such as the illegal search and seizure clause of the u.s. constitution, adopted by others) but have many that are antithetical to it (such as laws prohibiting secret communications or allowing wiretapping). these rules generally carry over to the internet with few specific rules governing it. however, the legal repercussions of the global internet are still largely unknown and untested (i.e. no strong legal precedents and court cases). the fact that internet traffic frequently passes past international boundaries, and is not centrally managed, significantly complicates and strongly discourages its regulation. <2.3> how (in)secure are internet networks? - `theoretically' people at any site in the chain of sites with access to hardware and network media that transmits data over the internet could potentially monitor or archive it. however, the sheer volume and general 'noise' inherent to this data makes these scenarios highly improbable, even by government agencies with supposedly vast funding and resources. - technologies exist to `tap' magnetic fields given off by electrical wires without detection. less obscurely, any machine with a network connection is a potential station for traffic detection, but this scenario requires knowledge and access to very low-level hardware (the network card) to pursue, if even - a company network general inc. is one of many that manufactures and markets sophisticated network monitoring tools that can 'filter' and read packets by arbitrary criteria for troubleshooting purposes, but the cost of this type of device is prohibitive for casual use. known instances of the above types of security breaches at a major scale (such as at network hubs) are very rare. the greatest risks tend to emerge locally. note that all these approaches are almost completely defused with the use of cryptography. <2.4> how (in)secure is my account? by default, not very. there are a multitude of factors that may reinforce or compromise aspects of your privacy on the internet. first, your account must be secure from other users. the universal system is to use a password, but if it is `weak' (i.e. easy to guess) this security is significantly diminished. somewhat surprisingly and frighteningly to some, certain users of the system, particularly the administrator, generally have unlimited access regardless of passwords, and may grant that access to others. this means that they may read any file in your account without detection. furthermore, not universally known, most unix systems keep fairly extensive accounting records of when and where you logged in, what commands you execute, and when they are executed (in fact, login information is usually public). most features of this `auditing' or `process accounting' information are enabled by default after the initial installation and the system administrator may customize it to strengthen or weaken it to satisfy performance or privacy aims. this information is frequently consulted for troubleshooting purposes and may otherwise be ignored. this data tracks unsuccessful login attempts and other 'suspicious' activities on the system. a traditional part of the unix system that tracks user commands is easily circumvented by the user with the use of symbolic links (described in 'man ln'). unix implementations vary widely particularly in tracking features and new sophisticated mechanisms are introduced by companies regularly. typically system adminstrators augment the basic unix functionality with public-domain programs and locally-developed tools for monitoring, and use them only to isolate `suspicious' activity as it arises (e.g. remote accesses to the 'passwd' file, incorrect login attempts, remote connection attempts, etc.). generally, you should expect little privacy on your account for various reasons: - potentially, every keystroke you type could be intercepted by someone else. - system administrators make extensive backups that are completely invisible to users which may record the states of an account over many weeks. - erased files can, under many operating systems, be undeleted. - most automated services keep logs of use for troubleshooting or otherwise; for example ftp sites usually log the commands and record the domain originations of users, including anonymous - some software exacerbates these problems. see the section on ``x windows (in)security''. indepedent of malevolent administrators are fellow users, a much more commonly harmful threat. there are multiple ways to help ensure that your account will not be accessed by others, and compromises can often be traced to failures in these guidelines: - choose a secure password. change it periodically. - make sure to logout always. - do not leave a machine unattended for long. - make sure no one watches you when you type your password. - avoid password references in email. - be conservative in the use of the .rhost file. - use utilities like `xlock' to protect a station, but be be wary of situations where you think you should supply your password. there are only several basic situations where unix prompts you for a password: when you are logging in to a system or changing your password. situations can arise in which prompts for passwords are forged by other users, especially in cases where you are talking to them (such as internet relay chat). also, be aware that forged login screens are one method to illegitimately obtain (thanks to jim mattson <mattson@cs.ucsd.edu> for contributions here.) <2.5> how (in)secure are my files and directories? the most important privacy considerations are related to file rights, and many lapses can be traced to their misunderstood nature or haphazard maintenance. be aware of the rights associated with your files and directories in unix. if the `x' (`execute') right on your parent directory is off for users, groups, and other, these users cannot gain information on anything in your directories. anything less may allow others to read, change, or even delete files in your home directory. the rights on a directory supersede the rights associated with files in that directory. for a directory, 'x' means that access to the files (or subdirectories) in the directory is possible -- if you know their names. to list the contents of the directory, however, requires the 'r' right. by default most accounts are accessable only to the owner, but the initial configuration varies between sites based on administrator preference. the default file mode specifies the initial rights associated with newly created files, and can be set in the shell with `umask'. the details of rights implementations tend to vary between versions of unix. consult man pages on `chmod' and `ls'. traver.lance % ls -ld ~ drwx------ 15 ld231782 1536 jan 31 21:22 /users/ld231782/ here is a listing of the rights associated with a user's home directory, denoted by `~'. the columns at the left identify what rights are available. the first column identifies the entry as a directory, and the next three columns mean that read, write, and execute rights, respectively, are permitted for that user. for directories, the `x' right means that contents (file and subdirectory names) within that directory can be listed. the subsequent columns indicate that no other users have any rights to anything in the directory tree originating at that point. they can't even `see' any lower files or subdirectories; the hierarchy is completely invisible to them. traver.lance % ls -l msg -rw-r--r-- 1 ld231782 35661 jan 29 23:13 msg traver.lance % chmod u=rw,g=,o= msg traver.lance % ls -l msg -rw------- 1 ld231782 35661 jan 29 23:13 msg here the modes on the file `msg' were changed to take away rights from `group' and `other'. note that `ls -l <file>' requires both the 'r' right to get the list of files and subdirectories, and the 'x' right to access the files and subdirectories in order to get their size, etc. for example, suppose the directory `foo' has rights dr--r--r--, the following is possible: ls foo these commands would fail independent of file rights: ls -l foo ls -l foo/file cat foo/file cd foo if the directory `foo' has rights d--x--x--x, the following are possible if it is known beforehand that `foo' contains an 'r' readable file named `file': ls -l foo/file cat foo/file cd foo the following commands fail: ls foo ls -l foo (thanks to uwe waldmann <uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de> for contributions here.) <2.6> how (in)secure is x windows? x windows is the primary software developed by the mit athena project which is funded by u.s. government grants to develop applications to harness the power of networks in enhancing computational tasks, particularly the human-computer interface. the software implements a client-server interface to a computer via graphical windows. in this case the `client' is the application requesting or utilizing graphical resources (such as windows or a mouse) and the `server' is the machine that provides them. in many situations the client is an application program running on the same machine as the server. the great utility of x windows comes from its complete dissociation of the client and server so that windows may be `broadcast' to a server at a remote location from the client. unfortunately this dynamic power also introduces many deep, intricate, and complicated security considerations. the primary security and privacy issue associated with x windows is that much more sensitive data may be sent over a network, and over wider regions, than in the case where the human is situated near the host computer. currently there is no encryption of data such as screen updates and keystrokes in x due to either intentional design decisions or unintentional design flaws, early versions of the x window system are extremely insecure. anyone with an account on the server machine can disrupt that display or read it electronically based on access to the device unix:0.0 by any regular user. there are no protections from this type of access in these versions. the problem arises because the security is completely based on machine addresses rather than users, such that any user at a `trusted' machine is himself trusted. quoting from x documentation (man xsecurity): any client on a host in the host access control list is allowed access to the x server. this system can work reasonably well in an environment where everyone trusts everyone, or when only a single person can log into a given machine...this system does not work well when multiple people can log in to a single machine and mutual trust does not exist. with the access control list, the `xhost' command may prevent some naive attempts (i.e. those other than the direct-access unix:0.0 evasion); the syntax as typed on the host machine is ``xhost +[name]'' where [name] is the domain name or internet address of an authorized client machine. by default clients running nonlocal to the host are disabled. public domain programs to disrupt a display momentarily (such as 'flip' or slowly mirror the screen image, or cause pixels to 'melt' down to the bottom) have been circulating on the internet among hackers for several years and played as pranks on unsuspecting or inexperienced users. much more serious security breaches are conceivable from similar mechanisms exploiting this inherent weaknesses. (the minimal, easily-bypassed `trusted' security mode of `xhost' has been jokingly referred to as ``x hanging open, security terrible.''). new versions of the x window system (x11r5 and higher) by default make server access as secure as the file system using a .xauthority file and 'magic cookies'. remote machines must have a code in the .xauthority file in the home directory that matches the code allowed by the server. many older programs and even new vendor-supplied code does not support or is incompatible with `magic cookies'. the basic magic cookie mechanism is vulnerable to monitoring techniques described earlier because no encryption of keys occurs in transmission. x11r5 also includes other sophisticated encryption mechanisms. try `man xsecurity' to find out what is supported at your site. even though improved security mechanisms have been available in x windows since ~1990, local sites often update this software infrequently because installation is extremely complex. (thanks to marc vanheyningen <mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu>, jim mattson <mattson@cs.ucsd.edu>, and bill marshall <marshall@cs.iastate.edu> for contributions here.) <2.7> how (in)secure is my email? by default, not very. the characters that you are reading are almost certainly encoded in ascii, the american standard code for information interchange that maps alphabetic and symbolic characters onto numeric codes and vice versa. virtually every computer system uses this code, and if not, has ways of converting to and from it. when you write a mail message, by default it is being sent in ascii, and since the standard is virtually universal, there is no intrinsic privacy. despite milleniums worth of accumulated cryptographic knowledge, cryptographic technologies are only recently being established that afford high priority to privacy as a primary criteria in computer and network design. some potential pitfalls in privacy are as follows: - the most serious threats are instances of immature or unscrupulous system operators reading private mail in the `spool files' at a local site (i.e. at the source or destination of the message), such as a university. - system administrators may also release files to law enforcement agencies, but conventions and protocols for warrants involving computer searches have still not been strongly established and tested legally. - note that bounced messages go to postmasters at a given site in their entirety. this means that if you address mail with an incorrect address it has a good chance of being seen by a human other than the recipient. - typically new user accounts are always set up such that the local mail directory is private, but this is not guaranteed and can be - finally, be aware that some mailing lists (email addresses of everyone on a list) are actually publicly accessable via mail routing software mechanisms. this `feature' can be disabled. most potential compromises in email privacy can be thoroughly avoided with the use of strong end-to-end cryptography, which has its own set of caveats (for example, unscrupulous administrators may still be a threat if the encryption site is shared or nonlocal). see the sections on ``email privacy'' and ``email policies.'' <2.8> how am i (not) liable for my email and postings? as punishment or whatever, your system administrator can revoke certain `privileges' such as emailing, usenet posting or reading certain groups, file transferring, remote communications, or generally any subset of capabilities available from your account. this all is completely at the discretion of the local administrator and under the procedures followed at a particular site, which in many cases are haphazard and crisis-oriented. currently there are virtually no widespread, uniform guidelines or procedures for restricting use to any internet services, and local administrators are free to make arbitrary decisions on access. today punitive measures are regularly applied in various situations. in the typical scenario complaint(s) reach a system adminstrator regarding abuses by a user, usually but not necessarily preceded by complaints to the user in email, regarding that person's objectionable email or postings. `abusive' posters to usenet are usually first given admonitions from their system administrators as urged by others on the `net'. (the debate persists endlessly on many newsgroups whether this is also used as a questionable means of attacking or silencing `harmless crackpots' or censoring unpopular opinions.) system administrators at remote sites regularly cooperate to 'squelch' severe cases of abuse. in general, however, by tradition usenet readers are remarkably tolerant of diverse views and uses of the system, but a colorful vocabularly of slang helps describe their alternatives when this patience is sapped: the options wielded by the individual user are to simply advance to the next message (referred to as ``hitting the `n' key''), or to `plonk' annoying posters (according to the hacker's dictionary, the sound a jerk makes at the end of a fall to the bottom of a kill file). in cases where punitive actions are applied, generally system administrators are least likely to restrict email. usenet postings are much more commonly restricted, either to individual users or entire groups (such as a university campus). restrictions are most commonly associated with the following `abuses': - harassing or threatening notes, `email terrorism' - illegal uses, e.g. piracy or propagation of copyrighted material - `ad hominem' attacks, i.e. insulting the reputation of the poster instead of citing the content of the message - intentional or extreme vulgarity and offensiveness - inappropriate postings, esp. binary files in regular groups `mail-bombing': inundating mail boxes with numerous or massive major problems originate from lack of distinctions in private and official email or postings. most users have internet access via accounts at businesses or universities and their activities on the internet can be construed as representative of their parent organizations. many people put disclaimers in their `signatures' in an attempt dissociate their identity and activities from parent organizations as a precaution. a recent visible political case involves the privacy of electronic mail written by white house staff members of the bush administration. following are some guidelines: - acquaint yourself with your company or university policy. - if possible, avoid use of your company email address for private - use a disclaimer. - keep a low profile (avoid `flamewars' or simply don't post). - avoid posting information that could be construed to be proprietary or `internal'. the following references are available from ftp.eff.com (see also the section on ``internet use policies''): /pub/academic/banned.1991 /pub/academic/banned.1992 computer material that was banned/challenged in academia in 1991 and 1992 including usenet hierarchies. /pub/academic/cases this is an on-line collection of information about specific computers and academic freedom cases. file readme is a detailed description of the items in the directory. /pub/academic/faq/netnews.liability notes on university liability for usenet. <2.9> how do i provide more/less information to others on my identity? the public information of your identity and account is mostly available though the unix utility `finger' described above. - you have control over most of this information with the utility `chfn', the specifics vary between sites (on some systems use `passwd -f'). - you can provide unlimited information in the .plan file which is copied directly to the destination during the fingering. - a technique that works at some sites allows you to find out who is 'finger'ing you and even to vary the .plan file sent to them. - your signature is determined by the environment variable signature - usenet signatures are conventionally stored in the .signature file in your home directory. providing less information on your online identity is more difficult and involved. one approach is to ask your system adminstrator to change or delete information about you (such as your full name). you may be able to obtain access on a public account or one from someone unrelated to you personally. you may be able to remotely login (via modem or otherwise) to computers that you are not physically near. these are tactics for hiding or masking your online activities but nothing is foolproof. consult man pages on the 'chmod' command and the default file mode. generally, files on a shared system have good safeguards within the user pool but very little protection is possible from corrupt system administrators. to mask your identity in email or on usenet you can use different accounts. more untraceable are new `anonymous posting' and remailing services that are very recently being established. see <2.10> who is my sysadmin? what does s/he know about me? the requirements and screening for getting a system administration job (and thereby access to all information on a system) vary widely between sites and are sometimes frighteningly lax, especially at universities. many unix systems at universities are largely managed by undergraduates with a background in computing and often `hacking'. in general, commercial and industrial sites are more strict on qualifications and background, and government sites are extremely strict. the system adminstrator (root user) can monitor what commands you used and at what times. s/he may have a record (backups) of files on your account over a few weeks. s/he can monitor when you send email or post usenet messages, and potentially read either. s/he may have access to records indicating what hosts you are using, both locally and elsewhere. administrators sometimes employ specialized programs to track `strange' or `unusual' activity, which can potentially be misused. <2.11> why is privacy (un)stable on the internet? for the numerous reasons listed above, privacy should not be an expectation with current use of the internet. furthermore, large parts of the internet are funded by the u.s. nsf (national science foundation) which places certain restrictions on its use (such as prohibiting commercial use). some high-level officials in this and other government agencies may be opposed to emerging techniques to guarantee privacy (such as encryption and anonymous services). historically the major threats to privacy on the internet have been local. perhaps the most common example of this are the widespread occurrences of university administrators refusing to carry some portion of usenet newsgroups labelled as `pornographic'. the `alternative' hierarchy in the usenet system, which has virtually no restrictions on propagation and new group creation, is frequently targeted (although this material may appear anywhere). from the global point of view traffic is generally completely unimpeded on the internet and only the most egregious offenders are pursued. for example, verbatim transcriptions of copyrighted material (such as newspaper or magazine articles) are posted to usenet with regularity without major consequences (some email complaints may ensue). more astonishing to some is that currently significant portions of usenet traffic, and less so internet traffic, is comprised of sexually-explicit digitized images almost entirely originating from copyrighted material (newsgroups such as `alt.sex' regularly have the highest traffic). <2.12> what is the future of privacy on the internet? some argue that the internet currently has an adequate or appropriate level of privacy. others will argue that as a prototype for future global networks it has woefully inadequate safeguards. the internet is growing to become a completely global, international superhighway for data, and this traffic will inevitably entail data such as voice messages, postal mail, and many other items of extremely personal nature. computer items that many people consider completely private (such as their local hard drives) will literally be inches from global network connections. also, sensitive industrial and business information is exchanged over networks currently and this volume may conceivably merge with the internet. most would agree that, for these basic but sensitive uses of the internet, no significant mechanisms are currently in place to ensure much privacy. new standards are calling for uniform introduction of `privacy enhanced mail' (pem) which uses encryption technologies to ensure privacy, so that privacy protection is automatic, and may significantly improve safeguards. the same technology that can be extremely destructive to privacy (such as with surreptitious surveilance) can be overwhelmingly effective in protecting it (e.g. with encryption). some government agencies are opposed to unlimited privacy in general, and believe that it should lawfully be forfeited in cases of criminal conduct (e.g. court-authorized wiretapping). however, powerful new technologies to protect privacy on computers are becoming increasingly popular, provoking some to say that ``the cat is out of the bag'' and the ``genie can't be put back in the bottle''. in less idiomatic terms, they believe that the spread of strong cryptography is already underway will be socially and technically to date, no feasible system that guarantees both secure communication and government oversight has been proposed (the two goals are largely incompatible). proposals for ``registration'' of secret keys (by d. denning on sci.crypt, for example) have been met with hot controversy at best and ridicule and derision at worst, mainly because of concerns for the right to privacy and objections of inherent feasibility. electronic privacy issues, and particularly the proper roles of networks and the internet, will foreseeably become highly visible and explosive over the next few <3.1> what is `anonymity' on the internet? simply stated, anonymity is the absence of identity, the ultimate in privacy. however, there are several variations on this simple theme. a person may wish to be consistently identified by a certain pseudonym or `handle' and establish a reputation under it in some area, providing pseudo-anonymity. a person may wish to be completely untraceable for a single one-way message (a sort of `hit-and-run'). or, a person may wish to be openly anonymous but carry on a conversation with others (with either known or anonymous identities) via an `anonymous return address'. a user may wish to appear as a `regular user' but actually be untraceable. sometimes a user wishes to hide who he is sending mail to (in addition to the message itself). the anonymous item itself may be directed at individuals or groups. a user may wish to access some service and hide all signs of the association. all of these uses are feasible on the internet but are currently tricky to carry out in practice, because of all the tracking mechanisms inherent to operating systems and network protocols. officials of the nsf and other government agencies may be opposed to any of these uses because of the potential for abuse. nevertheless, the inherent facelessness of large networks will always guarantee a certain element of anonymity. <3.2> why is `anonymity' (un)important on the internet? anonymity is another powerful tool that can be beneficial or problematic depending on its use. arguably absence of identification is important as the presence of it. it may be the case that many strong benefits from electronic anonymity will be discovered that were unforeseen and unpredicted, because true anonymity has been historically very difficult to establish. one can use anonymity to make personal statements to a colleague that would sabotage a relationship if stated openly (such as employer/employee scenarios). one can use it to pass information and evade any threat of direct retribution. for example, `whistleblowers' reporting on government abuses (economic, social, or political) can bring issues to light without fear of stigma or retaliation. sensitive, personal, potentially damaging information is often posted to some usenet groups, a risky situation where anonymity allows conversations to be carried on completely independent of the identities of the participants. some police departments run phone services that allow anonymous reporting of crimes; such uses would be straightforward on the network. unfortunately, extortion and harassment become more insidious with assurances of anonymity. <3.3> how can anonymity be protected on the internet? the chief means, as alluded to above, are masking identities in email and posting. however, anonymous accounts (public accounts as accessable and anonymous as e.g. public telephones) may be effective as well, but this use is generally not officially supported and even discouraged by some system adminstrators and nsf guidelines. the nonuniformity in the requirements of obtaining accounts at different sites and institutions makes anonymous accounts generally difficult to obtain to the public at large. many communications protocols are inherently detrimental to anonymity. virtually every protocol in existence currently contains information on both sender and receiver in every packet. new communications protocols will likely develop that guarantee much higher degrees of secure anonymous communication. <3.4> what is `anonymous mail'? one approach to `anonymizing' mail has been to set up an `anonymous server' that, when activated by email to its address, responds by allocating and supplying an `anonymous id' that is unique to the person requesting it (based on his email address). this will vary for the same person for different machine address email originations. to send anonymous mail, the user sends email directed to the server containing the final destination. the server `anonymizes' the message by stripping of identification information and forwards the message, which appears to originate from the anonymous server only from the corresponding anonymous user id. this is the `interactive' use of anonymity or pseudonymity mentioned above. another more `fringe' approach is to run a `cypherpunk' remailer from a regular user account (no root system privileges are required). these are currently being pioneered by eric hughes and hal finney <hal@alumni.caltech.edu>. the operator runs a process on a machine that anonymizes mail sent to him with certain characteristics that distinguish it from his regular incoming mail (typically fields in the header). one has been implemented as a perl script running on unix. several of these are in existence currently but sites and software currently are highly unstable; they may be in operation outside of system administrator knowledge. the remailers don't generally support anonymous return addresses. mail that is incorrectly addressed is received by the operator. generally the user of the remailer has to disavow any responsibility for the messages forwarded through his system, although actually may be held liable regardless. these approaches have several serious disadvantages and weaknesses: - the anonymous server approach requires maintaining a mapping of anonymous id's to real addresses that must be maintained indefinitely. one alternative is to allow `deallocation' of aliases at the request of the user, but this has not been implemented yet. - although an unlikely scenario, traffic to any of these sites could conceivably be monitored from the `outside', necessitating the use of cryptography for basic protection,. - local administrators can shut them down either out of caprice or under pressure from local, network, or government agencies. - unscrupulous providers of the services can monitor the traffic that goes through them. - most remailers currently keep logs that may be inspected. - the cypherpunk approach tends to be highly unstable because these operators are basically network users who do not own the equipment and are accountable to their own system administrators, who may be unaware of the use and unsympathetic to the philosophy of anonymity when the operation is discovered, regarding it as illicit use. - in all cases, a high degree of trust is placed in the anonymous server operator by the user. currently the most direct route to anonymity involves using smtp protocols to submit a message directly to a server with arbitrary field information. this practice, not uncommon to hackers, and the approach used by remailers, is generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators. information in the header routing data and logs of network port connection information may be retained that can be used to track the originating site. in practice, this is generally infeasible and rarely carried out. some administrators on the network will contact local administrators to request a message be tracked and its writer admonished or punished more severely (such as revoking the account), all of this actually happening occasionally but infrequently. see the sections ``known anonymous mail and posting sites'' and ``responsibilities associated with anonymity''. <3.5> what is `anonymous posting'? anonymous servers have been established as well for anonymous usenet posting with all the associated caveats above (monitored traffic, capricious or risky local circumstances, logging). make sure to test the system at least once by e.g. anonymous posting to misc.test (however some operators don't recommend this because many sites `autorespond' to test messages, possibly causing the anonymous server to allocate anonymous ids for those machines). see the ``responsibilties associated with anonymous posting'' before proceeding. another direct route involves using nntp protocols to submit a message directly to a newserver with arbitrary field information. this practice, not uncommon to hackers, is also generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators, and similar consequences can ensue. see the sections ``known anonymous mail and posting sites'' and ``responsibilities associated with anonymity''. <3.6> why is anonymity (un)stable on the internet? as noted, many factors compromise the anonymity currently available to the general internet community, and these services should be used with great caution. to summarize, the technology is in its infancy and current approaches are unrefined, unreliable, and not completely trustworthy. no standards have been established and troubling situations of loss of anonymity and bugs in the software are prevalent. here are some encountered and potential bugs: - one anonymous remailer reallocated already allocated anonymous return addresses. - others passed signature information embedded in messages - address resolution problems resulting in anonymized mail bounced to a remailer are common. - forgeries to the anonymous server itself are a problem, possibly allowing unauthorized users to potentially glean anon id - email address mappings in the alias file. this can be remedied with the use of passwords. - infinite mail loops are possible with chaining remailers. source code is being distributed, tested, and refined for these systems, but standards are progressing slowly and weakly. the field is not likely to improve considerably without official endorsement and action by network agencies. the whole idea is essentially still in its infancy and viewed with suspicion and distrust by many on the internet, seen as illegitimate or favorable to criminality. the major objection to anonymity over regular internet use is the perceived lack of accountability to system operators, i.e. invulnerability to account restrictions resulting from outside complaints. system adminstrators at some sites have threatened to filter anonymous news postings generated by the prominent servers from their redistribution flows. this may only have the effect of encouraging server operators to create less characteristically detectable headers. probably the least problematic approach, and the most traditional to usenet, is for individual users to deal with anonymous mail however they prefer, e.g. ignoring it or filtering it with kill files. <3.7> what is the future of anonymity on the internet? new anonymous protocols effectively serve to significantly increase safeguards of anonymity. for example, the same mechanism that routes email over multiple hosts, thereby threatening its privacy, can also be used to guarantee it. in a scheme called `chaining' an anonymous message is passed through multiple anonymous servers before reaching a destination. in this way generally multiple links of the chain have to be `broken' for security to be compromised. re-encryption at each link makes this scenario even more unlikely. even more significantly the anonymous remailers could be spread over the internet globally so that local weaknesses (such as corrupt governments or legal wiretapping within a nation) would be more unlikely to sacrifice overall security by message tracing. however, remailers run by corrupt operators are possible. the future of anonymous services on the internet is, at this time, highly uncertain and fraught with peril. while specific groups seem to benefit significantly from anonymous posting capabilities, many feel that unlimited newsgroup scope for anonymous posting is a disruptive and dangerous idea and detracts from discussions in `serious' groups. the introduction of unlimited group anonymity may have fundamental repercussions on usenet conventions and distribution mechanisms such as moderated and `alt' groups have had in the past. for example, as part of new group creation, the charter may specify whether `anonymous' posting is (un)welcome. nevertheless, the widespread introduction and use of anonymity may be inevitable. based on traffic statistics, anonymous services are in huge demand. pervasive and readily available anonymity could carry significant and unforeseen social consequences. however, if its use is continued to be generally regarded as subversive it may be confined to the underground. the ramifications of widespread introduction of anonymity to usenet are still largely unknown. it is unclear whether it will provoke signficant amounts of new traffic or, instead of expansion, cause a shift where a greater portion of existing traffic is anonymized. conceivably the services could play a role in influencing future mainstream social acceptance of usenet. this is part 1 of the privacy & anonymity faq, obtained via anonymous ftp to pit-manager@mit.edu:/pub/usenet/news.answers/net-privacy/ or newsgroups news.answers, sci.answers, alt.answers every 21 days. written by l. detweiler <ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu>. all rights reserved. 
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 the crypto-key disclosure issue hasn't come up yet, but current law suggests that it's a loser for the defendant--he'll be compelled to turn over the key. it has actually come up (or it will in a week or two) in nz. i'll post the outcome when the trial finishes (which could take months btw). overall it looks like you can't be forced to reveal a password, if anyone can provide a convincing legal argument to the contrary (ie an actual court case) i'd be most interested... pgut1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz||p_gutmann@cs.aukuni.ac.nz||gutmann_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz peterg@kcbbs.gen.nz||peter@nacjack.gen.nz||peter@phlarnschlorpht.nacjack.gen.nz (in order of preference - one of 'em's bound to work) -- think! (or thwim) -- 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15181" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 call for papers the internet society symposium on network and distributed system security 3-4 february 1994, catamaran hotel, san diego, california the symposium will bring together people who are building software and hardware to provide network or distributed system security services. the symposium is intended for those interested in practical aspects of network and distributed system security, rather than in theory. symposium proceedings will be published by the internet society. topics for the symposium include, but are not limited to, the following: * design and implementation of services--access control, authentication, availability, confidentiality, integrity, and non-repudiation --including criteria for placing services at particular protocol * design and implementation of security mechanisms and support services--encipherment and key management systems, authorization and audit systems, and intrusion detection systems. * requirements and architectures for distributed applications and network functions--message handling, file transport, remote file access, directories, time synchronization, interactive sessions, remote data base management and access, routing, voice and video multicast and conferencing, news groups, network management, boot services, mobile computing, and remote i/o. * special issues and problems in security architecture, such as -- very large systems like the international internet, and -- high-speed systems like the gigabit testbeds now being built. * interplay between security goals and other goals--efficiency, reliability, interoperability, resource sharing, and low cost. general chair: dan nessett, lawrence livermore national laboratory program chairs: russ housley, xerox special information systems rob shirey, the mitre corporation program committee: dave balenson, trusted information systems tom berson, anagram laboratories matt bishop, dartmouth college ed cain, u.s. defense information systems agency jim ellis, cert coordination center steve kent, bolt, beranek and newman john linn, independent consultant clifford neuman, information sciences institute michael roe, cambridge university rob rosenthal, u.s. national institute of standards and technology jeff schiller, massachusetts institute of technology ravi sandhu, george mason university peter yee, u.s. national aeronautics and space administration submissions: the committee seeks both original technical papers and proposals for panel discussions on technical and other topics of general interest. technical papers should be 10-20 pages in length. panels should include three or four speakers. a panel proposal must name the panel chair, include a one-page topic introduction authored by the chair, and also include one-page position summaries authored by each speaker both the technical papers and the panel papers will appear in the submissions must be made by 16 august 1993. submissions should be made via electronic mail to 1994symposium@smiley.mitre.org. submissions may be in either of two formats: ascii or postscript. if the committee is unable to read a postscript submission, it will be returned and ascii requested. therefore, postscript submissions should arrive well before 16 august. if electronic submission is absolutely impossible, submissions should be sent via postal mail to robert w. shirey, mail stop z202 the mitre corporation mclean, virginia 22102-3481 usa all submissions must include both an internet electronic mail address and a postal address. each submission will be acknowledged through the medium by which it is received. if acknowledgment is not received within seven days, please contact either rob shirey <shirey@mitre.org> or russ housley <housley.mclean_csd@xerox.com>, or telephone mana weigand at mitre in mclean, 703-883-5397. authors and panelists will be notified of acceptance by 15 october 1993. instructions for preparing camera-ready copy for the proceedings will be postal mailed at that time. the camera-ready copy must be received by 15 november 1993. 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15182">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15182" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i would suggest that 50 attractive mime formatted news messages a day would be sufficient to get a few people thinking about adding mime support to news readers, esp if the content is really worth it. but that's just the problem. there is no such thing as "mime-formatted". by analogy, mime is a content-labelling standard for the box, not a specification for the contents themselves. it provides a standard for "like-minded" individuals to exchange mail containing an agreed-upon data you say tomahto, i say tomaeto; you say postscript, i say sgml... marc thibault | cis:71441,2226 | put another log marc@tanda.isis.org | nc freenet: aa185 | on the fire. -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.0 mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao+hihtnefrrn+vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n+lftpnnlc42ms+c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc+ =hlnv -----end pgp public key block----- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15183">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15183" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 note: this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc.ncsl.nist.gov in directory /pub/nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at 301-948-5717. the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 16, 1993 statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links. for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans. rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth, privacy and law enforcement, previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement. sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer. it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files. while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information, it also can be used by terrorists, drug dealers, and other criminals. a state-of-the-art microcircuit called the "clipper chip" has been developed by government engineers. the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology. it can be used in new, relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone. it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today. this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information, protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically. at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals. a "key-escrow" system will be established to ensure that the "clipper chip" is used to protect the privacy of law-abiding americans. each device containing the chip will have two unique "keys," numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device. when the device is manufactured, the two keys will be deposited separately in two "key-escrow" data bases that will be established by the attorney general. access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a the "clipper chip" technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans. to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology, the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices. in addition, respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings. the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption's dual-edge sword: encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry, but it also can shield criminals and terrorists. we need the "clipper chip" and other approaches that can both provide law-abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities. in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches (like the key-escrow system), the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates: -- the privacy of our citizens, including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes; -- the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data, under proper court or other legal order, when necessary to protect our citizens; -- the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace; and -- the need of u.s. companies to manufacture and export high technology products. the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries, the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed. the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information. this infrastructure of high-speed networks ("information superhighways") will transmit video, images, hdtv programming, and huge data files as easily as today's telephone system transmits voice. since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure, the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent, comprehensive policies regarding its use. the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans' right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law. further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet. the provisions of the president's directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available. for additional details, call mat heyman, national institute of standards and technology, (301) 975-2758. questions and answers about the clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q: does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations? a: no. "clipper chip" technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans. q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device. what would they have to do to decipher the message? a: they would have to obtain legal authorization, normally a court order, to do the wiretap in the first place. they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers. the key is split into two parts, which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system. q: who will run the key-escrow data banks? a: the two key-escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities. at this point, the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key-escrow data banks. q: how strong is the security in the device? how can i be sure how strong the security is? a: this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today. while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system, we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized q: whose decision was it to propose this product? a: the national security council, the justice department, the commerce department, and other key agencies were involved in this decision. this approach has been endorsed by the president, the vice president, and appropriate cabinet q: who was consulted? the congress? industry? a: we have on-going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues, and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy. we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative. q: will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers? a: the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits, but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers. product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them. q: who provides the "clipper chip"? a: mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance, california, and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers. the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future. q: how do i buy one of these encryption devices? a: we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the "clipper chip" into their devices. q: if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed, would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices? a: this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review. the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure, more convenient, and less expensive than others readily available today, but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology, which the administration is the administration is not saying, "since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement, we will prohibit it outright" (as some countries have effectively done); nor is the u.s. saying that "every american, as a matter of right, is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product." there is a false "tension" created in the assessment that this issue is an "either-or" proposition. rather, both concerns can be, and in fact are, harmoniously balanced through a reasoned, balanced approach such as is proposed with the "clipper chip" and similar encryption techniques. q: what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration's policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration? a: it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public-interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans' privacy, help businesses to compete, and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism. q: will the devices be exportable? will other devices that use the government hardware? a: voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements. case-by-case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices. the same is true for other encryption devices. one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u.s. companies operating at home and abroad. with this in mind, we expect export licenses will be granted on a case-by-case basis for u.s. companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad. we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products. 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15186">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15186" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 well, it now seems obvious what professor denning was doing last fall when this key escrow trial balloon was raised! all the more need for end-to-end encryption schemes that bypass the government-approved system. by the way, the "clipper" name...isn't this already used for the clipper processor from intergraph? i doubt they're the ones making the chip, so a name conflict may be present. -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15189">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15189" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 may as well look at one piece of this at a time. this paragraph: to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology, the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices. in addition, respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings. means they aren't planning to make it public, as was done with des. as it says in both sci.crypt faqs, there's no way we are going to achieve the same level of comfort with clipper that we finally have with des if we can't actually get our hands on the bits and watch them flow around. even the best experts aren't going to think of everything: look how long it took biham and shamir to get a handle on just how good des is... and for all we know there's still more to learn. jim gillogly trewesday, 25 astron s.r. 1993, 17:10 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15190">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15190" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self-incriminating? [from mike godwin <mnemonic@eff.org>, posted with permission - carl] no, but they could compell you to produce the key to a safe where, as it happens, evidence that will convict you is stored. the crypto-key disclosure issue hasn't come up yet, but current law suggests that it's a loser for the defendant--he'll be compelled to turn over the key. the test for compelled self-incrimination is whether the material to be disclosed *in itself* tends to inculpate the discloser. in the example i gave above, the safe key itself has no testimonial value--ergo, it can be disclosed under compulsion (e.g., subpoena duces tecum). moreover, the government can always immunize the disclosure of a crypto key--compelling you to disclose the key at the price of not using the fact of your disclosure as evidence in the case against you. of course, they can use whatever they discover as a result of this disclosure against --mike lets carry this one step further. suppose the text of the key is in itself conclusive evidence of the same crime for which the encrypted material is further evidence. i find myself envisaging a scenario like this: you have made some scans of peanuts strips. you encrypt them. the key is a phrase. the comic police haul you in. they seize your system. they find the encrypted file. cp: "whats that file?" you: "i take the fifth." cp: "what's the keyphrase to that file?" you: "i take the fifth." judge: "you have to reveal the keyphrase" [i disagree, but i'm not a judge.] you: "your honor, revealing the keyphrase, in it's own right, would tend to incriminate me of breaking laws, independent of what may or may not be in the encrypted file." judge: "i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself" you: "the keyphrase is: "i confess to deliberately evading copyright; the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips."" judge and cp: "oh." how will they get you now? i'm not saying that they won't, or can't (or even that they shouldn't :-), but what legal mechanism will they use? should we be crossposting this to misc.legal? peter trei ptrei@mitre.org 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15192">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15192" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the key question is whether non-clipper encryption will be made illegal. the administration is not saying, "since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement, we will prohibit it outright" (as some countries have effectively done); nor is the u.s. saying that "every american, as a matter of right, is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product." there is a false "tension" created in the assessment that this issue is an "either-or" proposition. rather, both concerns can be, and in fact are, harmoniously balanced through a reasoned, balanced approach such as is proposed with the "clipper chip" and similar encryption techniques. the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption, but not to unbreakable encryption. this implies that, ultimately, non-clipper strong encryption must become (as an aside, isn't the language here jarring? all this talk about "harmonious balance" when they're talking about taking away people's right to communications privacy?) although the article emphasizes voice communication, data and mail encryption is mentioned as well: sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer. it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files. -- the privacy of our citizens, including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes; it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning's proposals are coming true. if the government continues on this course, i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal. encryption programs for disk files and email, as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications, will be distributed only through the "underground". people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy. it's shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here. hal finney hal@alumni.caltech.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15193">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15193" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it looks like dorothy denning's wrong-headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared. it's time to make sure they hear the other side of the story, and hear it loudly! ------- forwarded message note: this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc.ncsl.nist.gov in directory /pub/nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at 301-948-5717. the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 16, 1993 statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links. for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans. rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth, privacy and law enforcement, previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement. sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer. it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files. while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information, it also can be used by terrorists, drug dealers, and other criminals. a state-of-the-art microcircuit called the "clipper chip" has been developed by government engineers. the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology. it can be used in new, relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone. it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today. this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information, protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically. at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals. a "key-escrow" system will be established to ensure that the "clipper chip" is used to protect the privacy of law-abiding americans. each device containing the chip will have two unique "keys," numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device. when the device is manufactured, the two keys will be deposited separately in two "key-escrow" data bases that will be established by the attorney general. access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a the "clipper chip" technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans. to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology, the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices. in addition, respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings. the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption's dual-edge sword: encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry, but it also can shield criminals and terrorists. we need the "clipper chip" and other approaches that can both provide law-abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities. in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches (like the key-escrow system), the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates: -- the privacy of our citizens, including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes; -- the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data, under proper court or other legal order, when necessary to protect our citizens; -- the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace; and -- the need of u.s. companies to manufacture and export high technology products. the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries, the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed. the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information. this infrastructure of high-speed networks ("information superhighways") will transmit video, images, hdtv programming, and huge data files as easily as today's telephone system transmits voice. since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure, the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent, comprehensive policies regarding its use. the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans' right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law. further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet. the provisions of the president's directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available. for additional details, call mat heyman, national institute of standards and technology, (301) 975-2758. questions and answers about the clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q: does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations? a: no. "clipper chip" technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans. q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device. what would they have to do to decipher the message? a: they would have to obtain legal authorization, normally a court order, to do the wiretap in the first place. they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers. the key is split into two parts, which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system. q: who will run the key-escrow data banks? a: the two key-escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities. at this point, the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key-escrow data banks. q: how strong is the security in the device? how can i be sure how strong the security is? a: this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today. while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system, we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized q: whose decision was it to propose this product? a: the national security council, the justice department, the commerce department, and other key agencies were involved in this decision. this approach has been endorsed by the president, the vice president, and appropriate cabinet q: who was consulted? the congress? industry? a: we have on-going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues, and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy. we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative. q: will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers? a: the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits, but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers. product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them. q: who provides the "clipper chip"? a: mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance, california, and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers. the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future. q: how do i buy one of these encryption devices? a: we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the "clipper chip" into their devices. q: if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed, would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices? a: this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review. the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure, more convenient, and less expensive than others readily available today, but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology, which the administration is the administration is not saying, "since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement, we will prohibit it outright" (as some countries have effectively done); nor is the u.s. saying that "every american, as a matter of right, is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product." there is a false "tension" created in the assessment that this issue is an "either-or" proposition. rather, both concerns can be, and in fact are, harmoniously balanced through a reasoned, balanced approach such as is proposed with the "clipper chip" and similar encryption techniques. q: what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration's policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration? a: it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public-interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans' privacy, help businesses to compete, and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism. q: will the devices be exportable? will other devices that use the government hardware? a: voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements. case-by-case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices. the same is true for other encryption devices. one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u.s. companies operating at home and abroad. with this in mind, we expect export licenses will be granted on a case-by-case basis for u.s. companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad. we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products. 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15196">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15196" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am eager to hear the legal theory behind restricting exchange of cryptographic data and encrypted messages, given the first admendment; the theory behind regulating the *personal* encryption of one's personal *thoughts and feelings* seems even less tenable. perhaps if we make a *treaty* with, say, iceland, to restrict crypto paraphernalia can a good "end run" around the constitution happen... (treaties -- as someone pointed out -- has the force of any other "law of the land". like the bill of rights.) amendment 1 congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. amendment 2 a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. amendment 3 no soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. amendment 4 the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. amendment 5 no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just well -- at least for a few minutes we had some privacy... grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15198">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15198" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : >: i hope my cynicism is misplaced here. go ahead...i'm not afraid to : >: be wrong every once in a while. but, i have an uneasy feeling that i : >: am right. :( : >it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state a bunch of crap as fact : >with a tiny disclaimer at the end. check your facts first and grow up. : >why is there such a strong correlation between interest in cryptography : >and immaturity i wonder. : oh, i see, flame someone, tell them that they are immature, tell them : they are wrong, and then don't offer any proof for your assertions. : you really *are* a putz. put up or shut up. i will provide any proof you wish in private. name it, dickhead. putz cain 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15199">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15199" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 note: the following was released by the white house today in conjunction with the announcement of the clipper chip encryption technology. fact sheet public encryption management the president has approved a directive on "public encryption management." the directive provides for the following: advanced telecommunications and commercially available encryption are part of a wave of new computer and communications technology. encryption products scramble information to protect the privacy of communications and data by preventing unauthorized access. advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology to rapidly and precisely handle a high volume of communications. these advanced telecommunications systems are integral to the infrastructure needed to ensure economic competitiveness in the information age. despite its benefits, new communications technology can also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance. sophisticated encryption can have this effect in the united states. when exported abroad, it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests. in the past, it has been possible to preserve a government capability to conduct electronic surveillance in furtherance of legitimate law enforcement and national security interests, while at the same time protecting the privacy and civil liberties of all citizens. as encryption technology improves, doing so will require new, innovative approaches. in the area of communications encryption, the u. s. government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard, but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption. the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization. to assist law enforcement and other government agencies to collect and decrypt, under legal authority, electronically transmitted information, i hereby direct the following action to be taken: installation of government-developed microcircuits the attorney general of the united states, or her representative, shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the u.s. government-developed key-escrow microcircuits in their products. the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public. all appropriate steps shall be taken to ensure that any existing or future versions of the key-escrow microcircuit are made widely available to u.s. communications hardware manufacturers, consistent with the need to ensure the security of the key-escrow system. in making this decision, i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing, or the government from approving, other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key- escrow system. key-escrow the attorney general shall make all arrangements with appropriate entities to hold the keys for the key-escrow microcircuits installed in communications equipment. in each case, the key holder must agree to strict security procedures to prevent unauthorized release of the keys. the keys shall be released only to government agencies that have established their authority to acquire the content of those communications that have been encrypted by devices containing the microcircuits. the attorney general shall review for legal sufficiency the procedures by which an agency establishes its authority to acquire the content of such procurement and use of encryption devices the secretary of commerce, in consultation with other appropriate u.s. agencies, shall initiate a process to write standards to facilitate the procurement and use of encryption devices fitted with key-escrow microcircuits in federal communications systems that process sensitive but unclassified information. i expect this process to proceed on a schedule that will permit promulgation of a final standard within six months of this directive. the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government's ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications. further, the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15202">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15202" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 though some may argue about the nose of the camel, it's worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony. if it is only used for that purpose, and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption, then it is an improvement over the current mass-produced standard civilian technology which, with a few exceptions, is limited to easy-to-break inverters. note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap. before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e-mail and files, let's focus on this. one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony, or if the government intends to expand it. though i share many of the concerns expressed by some, i find the proposal less threatening than many others, since right now most americans have no secure telephony, and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a "goat" can eavesdrop. this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones. reading between the lines, i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys. this would meet the needs of u.s. businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries, including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies. it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs. most legitimate u.s. corporations trust the nsa, and would be delighted to have a high-security system certified by them, even at the price of depositing keys in escrow. i see no difficulty in creating a reliable escrow. corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week, and that system has worked pretty well. from my point of view this is a fair starting point. there are concerns that need to be addressed, including the reliability of the escrows. but in return we get access to high-security crypto. many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed. there is at least a good possibility (which should be checked) that the proposed system is not so breakable. it doesn't have to be, nor does it have to have trapdoors, if the government can get the keys pursuant to a legitimate court order. thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries, while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order. in discussing this, let's try to avoid the nastiness, personal attacks and noise of some previous threads. this is a substantive and technical issue, and personal remarks have no place in such a discussion. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15204">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15204" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic? i.e., in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow, run them against my ciphertext and "draw a blank". i can imagine the ciphertext exhibiting certain statistical characteristics that might give a clue as to the encryption technique used, but not enough to give a handle for diferential cryptoanalysis. however, superencipherment or some other scheme that shapes the percieved properties of my ciphertext could thwart this. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15205">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15205" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 since the price of 1.44 m 3.5" floppies were still high until the last few years. if you store "old" data, with old file times, in the public filesystem the casual observer may miss the "hd"... especially if you "accidently" cover it with something). bear giles bear@cs.colorado.edu/fsl.noaa.gov it has been done already! in the uk the atari st box was shipped with 360k disks in the first few years and then later 720k disks. in order to make life less complicated, many freebie disks on mags were double formatted like this. side 0 of the disk had 360k on it and could be read by any st. it also had a flip-side program. this would swap the sides around so that side 1 became side 0. mike (mike@avon.demon.co.uk) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15212">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15212" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 okay, let's suppose that the nsa/nist/mykotronix registered key system becomes standard and i'm able to buy such a system from my local radio shack. every phone comes with a built in chip and the government has the key to every phone call. i go and buy a phone and dutifully register the key. what's to prevent me from swapping phones with a friend or buying a used phone at a garage sale? whooa. the secret registered keys just became unsynchronized. when the government comes to listen in, they only receive gobbledly-gook because the secret key registered under my name isn't the right one. that leads me to conjecture that: 1) the system isn't that secure. there are just two master keys that work for all the phones in the country. the part about registering your keys is just bogus. 2) the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this. criminals will quickly figure this out and go to in either case, i think we need to look at this a bit deeper."'jbl)mw:wxld2 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15214">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15214" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic? i.e., in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow, run them against my ciphertext and "draw a blank". i was thinking about this, also. it's quite possible the system transmits, in clear, the serial number of the device being used. that way they can start a tap, get the serial number, and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key. if they tap someone who's apparently using encryption, but don't find that prefix, then they'll assume it's an "un-authorized" encryption scheme. may the kloo gnomes be generous to you. robert crawford betel@camelot.bradley.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15216">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15216" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 procurement and use of encryption devices the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government's ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications. further, the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase. talk about adding insult to injury ... i, for one, believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by a decent administration, not continued. instead, it looks like that ill-gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15217">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15217" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation... [etc] great... nice choice of bad guys to convince everyone how "bad" unrestricted encryption is. why not use a child molester instead? of course, the word *suspect* is never used here, so i guess these people have already been convicted and are operating this drug ring from their jail cells. how about *this* question instead? q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a political opponent of a senior administration official and intercepts a conversation... kinda changes your interpretation of the event, doesn't it? and yes, the presence of the clipper chip does change things, because it will not only give the people talking on the phone a false sense of security, it will also give federal law enforcement agencies the justification to deny use of strong encryption methods that are inconvenient to them. dang it all, it's supposed to be inconvenient (but not impossible). that's the only sure way to make sure that abuses are minimized while still allowing legitimate law enforcement access. q: how strong is the security in the device? how can i be sure how strong the security is? a: this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today. while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system, we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized uh huh... sure. i predict that within two months (weeks?) of the chip's debut, the full technical details will be posted to sci.crypt. and if this has any impact on the security of the key escrow system, then we've been lied to. any cryptosystem worth its salt can withstand the light of public scrutiny, and there is no way you can be sure that an algorithm has no "unrecognized vulnerabilities" unless you have half the world trying to break it for a decade or so. even then, you gotta be careful. michael t. palmer | "a man is crazy who writes a secret in any m.t.palmer@larc.nasa.gov | other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server | from the vulgar." - roger bacon, 1220-1292 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15221">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15221" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the stragegy of the government is interesting. the real fear comes from them doing more than this. this is a voluntary program, and thus harder for us to object to on the surface. their strategy is a business one rather than legal one. they are pushing to get a standard in place, a secret standard, and if they get it as a standard then they will drive competitors out of the market. it will be legal to sell better, untapable encryption that doesn't have registered keys, but it will be difficult, and thus not a plan for most phone companies. you see, with clipper chip phones you'll be able to talk to any cellular company, or other phones or ports because they will follow the standard. at&t has already announced a clipper chip encryption product. the government has marketed hard to get major vendors to use these chips. if they get enough market share, they will rule. and thus there will be very little market for systems that can't be tapped by the police. the public isn't that concerned about it now, after all. they freely do calls that anybody with an old tv can listen to today! they won't pay big extra bucks for proprietary phones that secure them only from the police. well, some people will buy these phones, but they will only work with other proprietary phones, so the market will be small and the phones expensive. unless they are made in numbers large enough to sell them cheap, only the mob will buy them. and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones, because "the only reason a person would want one is to evade the police." brad templeton, clarinet communications corp. -- sunnyvale, ca 408/296-0366 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15222">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15222" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 pk> .perhaps we need the telephony equivalent of an anonymous remailer for .the telephone network? back in prohibition days (alcohol, that is) i .understand a device called the "cheesebox" was a popular means to thwart .the tracing of telephone calls. it connected two phone lines in the back .room of an otherwise uninvolved business. it was the conceptual predecesso .of today's anonymous email remailer. the old "cheesebox" was the pre-carterphone version of the "call diverter." after the carterphone decision there were several vendors that sold call diverters. i've got a couple in my basement that were used to redirect my office phone to my home number when i didn't feel like going into the office. it'd be quite easy to generate an "anonymous redialer" version of the call diverter. about 18 months ago, i heard a report on npr about a 900-number "1-900-sto-pper" or some such, for placing untraceable calls. you call them, and on "bong" tone dial the number you want to call; they told the npr interviewer that nothing short of a court order (which they'd fight) would make them release their matt healy "i pretend to be a network administrator; the lab net pretends to work" matt@wardsgi.med.yale.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15223">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15223" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i'm quite astonished, shocked, and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms. the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography. to do so is tantamount to regulating `acceptable' speech, and is blatantly unconstitutional. perhaps we should rename this year `1984' in honor of such an illustrious proposal. let the crappy chip live in infamy, and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure. i am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures. the u.s. government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this, and i call on everyone with an interest in a sensible government to resist and defy this proposal. the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely a subservient instrument to implement the will of the public, and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty. while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information, it also can be used by terrorists, drug dealers, and other criminals. it seems to me that u.s. diplomatic communications should be tappable by the u.n. whenever any countries produce a warrant to the u.n. in fact, i think we should stop paying the nsa billions of dollars a year to produce unbreakable codes for this reason. these actions violate the sovereignity of international law. (i hope mr. clinton is shrewd enough to recognize my sarcasm and satire here. but if he isn't, it's a modest and reasonable proposal, so he should find merit with it nevertheless.) cryptography is neutral technology. if everybody has strong cryptography (including policemen, bureacrats, businessmen, housewives, thugs and hoodlums), we have a sustainable equilibrium. anything less is an unworkable anti-egaltarian arrangement, intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms, and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality. we don't need to compromise on issues of freedom. for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans. for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and a serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans. since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure, the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent, comprehensive policies regarding its use. the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans' right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law. it is not possible for the federal government to ``act quickly'' or develop ``consistent, comprehensive policies'' period. and even if by some grandiose miracle such a thing were possible, it would only be an efficient way to deprive american citizens of fundamental and inalienable rights. the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone, esp. on this issue. the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications. law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon; they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it. q: if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed, would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices? no such laws can be constitutionally sound, and this is equivalent to a veiled threat, which i don't appreciate. this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism. i will trade threats for threats, and violation for violation. the administration is not saying, "since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement, we will prohibit it outright" (as some countries have effectively done); if the administration did say this, it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential, established, entrenched, and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees. the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever; such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal, and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population. nor is the u.s. saying that "every american, as a matter of right, is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product." the u.s., comprised of a vast majority of people fanatically committed to preserving their privacy in the face of an increasingly totalitarian government, is saying just that. take your chips and give them to nsa employees as christmas bonuses. we can run any algorithm on our computers we damn well please, and we will make any chips we please, and we will send any bit pattern over our data highways we please. and if you try to stop us, you will be gradually or abruptly dissolved into nothingness. [privacy vs. law enforcement] there is a false "tension" created in the assessment that this issue is an "either-or" proposition. this is an outright dingaling denning lie. the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible, and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise. americans are about to discover ways, through the use of technology, to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and *unrepresentative* government. ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15224">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15224" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 besides being an infringement on our civil liberties (not the subject in this post), the name "clipper chip" seems very confusable with the "clipper" chip of intergraph. originally designed by a team at fairchild semiconductor, clipper was a 32-bit risc microprocessor. it is still used in some workstations, notably those from intergraph, the supplier of cad tools. intergraph acquired the clipper product line when fairchild was sold to national semiconductor several years back. when i first saw "clipper chip" in the announcement, i immediately thought the article was referring to the clipper chip i know. this seems to be grounds for intergraph to sue, but then i'm not a lawyer. i'd say i'm a cryptologist, but i don't want to incriminate myself under the laws of the new regime. -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15227">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15227" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic? i.e., in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow, run them against my ciphertext and "draw a blank". i was thinking about this, also. it's quite possible the system transmits, in clear, the serial number of the device being used. that way they can start a tap, get the serial number, and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key. if they tap someone who's apparently using encryption, but don't find that prefix, then they'll assume it's an "un-authorized" encryption scheme. this doesn't handle superencrypted traffic. if the clipper doesn't impose any unfortunate performance side-effects there's no reason not to use it to superencrypt a stream of triple-des encrypted traffic. that way your traffic looks "normal" and perhaps anyone desiring to listen in won't even bother, since they know nobody's going to really trust crypto that has classified internals for important stuff. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15228">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15228" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 fact: it is unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa without a license to do so from pkp, whether or not one is charging for it. furthermore, any use of rsa, other than for research purposes allowed under us patent law, is similarly unlawful. therefore, the "average citizen" cannot use rsa to encrypt message traffic in the us without a license from pkp. wrong: i don't think even pkp claims this one. it is not unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa. it appears to be unlawful to use it, so i agree with your last sentence. fact: there are no restrictions (yet!) on the use of cryptography under us law, although this is beginning to look like it will change. the only impediments to widespread use of rsa cryptography in the us are pkp's yes, that's correct. arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15229">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15229" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 stupid me. i believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives. clinton is just more clever than the other guy. looks like gun control for privacy technology. one small step at a time. wait a minute.... let me think about this. hmmm, i feel better now. i believe the white house when they tell us this first step is, in fact, the final step. all is ok. we've nothing to fear. they're here to help us. god bless america. john hesse | a man, jhesse@netcom.com | a plan, moss beach, calif | a canal, bob. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15231">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15231" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 though i share many of the concerns expressed by some, i find the proposal less threatening than many others, since right now most americans have no secure telephony, and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a "goat" can eavesdrop. this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones. oh great. wonderful news. nobody can listen in--except the feds. you believe that the feds offer the least threat to liberty of anyone, and i'm sure i do too. glad that jerk won't be tapping my phone anymore. john hesse | a man, jhesse@netcom.com | a plan, moss beach, calif | a canal, bob. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15234">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15234" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 their strategy is a business one rather than legal one. they are pushing to get a standard in place, a secret standard, and if they get it as a standard then they will drive competitors out of the market. it will be legal to sell better, untapable encryption that doesn't have registered keys, but it will be difficult, and thus not a plan for most phone companies. if brad's analysis is correct, it may offer an explanation for why the encryption algorithm is being kept secret. this will prevent competitors from coming out with clipper-compatible phones which lack the government- installed "back door." the strategy brad describes will only work as long as the only way to get compatible phones is to have ones with the government (it would be nice, from the point of view of personal privacy, if brad turns out to be right. as long as people still have the power to provide their own encryption in place of or in addition to the clipper, privacy is still possible. but the wording of several passages in the announcement makes me doubt whether this will turn out to be true.) hal finney 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15236">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15236" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 my thoughts on why the algorithm is secret : the chip is (regretably) likely to become a standard. there will be many applications where economic factors dictate use of this chip, like it or not. if the alrogithm is public, and the code is as secure (absent the access to escrowed keys) as represented, an enterprising sort would make "compatible crypto chips for which no key had been escrowed". this is likely what the release was refering to when they refered to the secrecy of the algorithm protecting the security of the escrow system. rob boudrie 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15237">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15237" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 if there is anyone attending the issa conference in arlington, va next week, i would appreciate them getting in touch with me. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15240">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15240" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you, and the escrow houses release your code to the cops, your code is now no longer secure. it's in the hands of cops, and while i am sure most of the time they are good, their security will not be as good as the escrow houses. what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you, at the end of the wiretap, they should be obligated to inform you that a tap was performed, and replace (for free) the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the escrow houses. do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid? in many ways, it would be a positive step if they had to. judges set time limits on warrants, i assume. at the end of the time limit they should have to renew or replace your chip. that's if we go with this scheme, which i am not sure i agree with. brad templeton, clarinet communications corp. -- sunnyvale, ca 408/296-0366 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15241">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15241" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 oh great. wonderful news. nobody can listen in--except the feds. hey, it's better than the status quo. i am far less worried about "the feds" tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls. it would be stupid to rely on even a "clipperized" channel for truly sensitive material, but it *does* seem to finally offer a reasonable way to guard against casual eavesdropping. for example, even with my strong "right to bear arms" view of the private right to possess and use strong cryptosystems, the system as described provides enough security that i would actually buy a cordless phone, and would be much less wary of using cellular phones, walkie-talkies, and so on. as long as it's only used for mass-market voice scrambling, i actually don't see a problem with it. if you want more security than it offers, use something different. use pkcs for electronic mail, celp over des or triple des with diffie-hellman key exchange for your voice traffic, or whatever. and yes, i'd rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted, but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications... amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15243">
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part01 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 1: overview this is the first of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read this part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in the last part. disclaimer: this document is the product of the crypt cabal, a secret society which serves the national secu---uh, no. seriously, we're the good guys, and we've done what we can to ensure the completeness and accuracy of this document, but in a field of military and commercial importance like cryptography you have to expect that some people and organizations consider their interests more important than open scientific discussion. trust only what you can verify firsthand. and don't sue us. many people have contributed to this faq. in alphabetical order: eric bach, steve bellovin, dan bernstein, nelson bolyard, carl ellison, jim gillogly, mike gleason, doug gwyn, luke o'connor, tony patti, william setzer. we apologize for any omissions. if you have suggestions, comments, or criticism, please let the current editors know by sending e-mail to crypt-comments@math.ncsu.edu. we don't assume that this faq is at all complete at this point. archives: sci.crypt has been archived since october 1991 on cl-next2.cl.msu.edu, though these archives are available only to u.s. and canadian users. please contact crypt-comments@math.ncsu.edu if you know of other archives. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. table of contents: 1 overview 2 net etiquette * what groups are around? what's a faq? who am i? why am i here? * do political discussions belong in sci.crypt? * how do i present a new encryption scheme in sci.crypt? 3 basic cryptology * what is cryptology? cryptography? plaintext? ciphertext? encryption? key? * what references can i start with to learn cryptology? * how does one go about cryptanalysis? * what is a brute-force search and what is its cryptographic relevance? * what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem? * if a cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable, then is it guaranteed analysis-proof in practice? * why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break? 4 mathematical cryptology * in mathematical terms, what is a private-key cryptosystem? * what is an attack? * what's the advantage of formulating all this mathematically? * why is the one-time pad secure? * what's a ciphertext-only attack? * what's a known-plaintext attack? * what's a chosen-plaintext attack? * in mathematical terms, what can you say about brute-force attacks? * what's a key-guessing attack? what's entropy? 5 product ciphers * what is a product cipher? * what makes a product cipher secure? * what are some group-theoretic properties of product ciphers? * what can be proven about the security of a product cipher? * how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size? * can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication? * what exactly is des? * what is triple des? * what is differential cryptanalysis? * how was nsa involved in the design of des? * is des available in software? * is des available in hardware? * can des be used to protect classified information? * what are "ecb", "cbc", "cfb", and "ofb" encryption? 6 public-key cryptography * what is public-key cryptography? * what's rsa? * is rsa secure? * how fast can people factor numbers? * what about other public-key cryptosystems? 7 digital signatures and hash functions * what is a one-way hash function? * what is the difference between public, private, secret, shared, etc.? * what are md4 and md5? * what is snefru? 8 technical miscellany * how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect? * how do i break a vigenere (repeated-key) cipher? * how do i send encrypted mail under unix? [pgp, ripem, pem, ...] * is the unix crypt command secure? * how do i use compression with encryption? * is there an unbreakable cipher? * what does ``random'' mean in cryptography? * what is the unicity point (a.k.a. unicity distance)? * what is key management and why is it important? * can i use pseudo-random or chaotic numbers as a key stream? * what is the correct frequency list for english letters? * what is the enigma? * how do i shuffle cards? * can i foil s/w pirates by encrypting my cd-rom? * can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers? * what is the coding system used by vcr+? 9 other miscellany * what is the national security agency (nsa)? * what are the us export regulations? * what is tempest? * what are the beale ciphers, and are they a hoax? * what is the american cryptogram association, and how do i get in touch? * is rsa patented? * what about the voynich manuscript? 10 references * books on history and classical methods * books on modern methods * survey articles * reference articles * journals, conference proceedings * other * how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein? * electronic sources * rfcs (available from [ftprf]) * related newsgroups 
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part08 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 8: technical miscellany this is the eighth of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read the first part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in the last part. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. * how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect? * how do i break a vigenere (repeated-key) cipher? * how do i send encrypted mail under unix? [pgp, ripem, pem, ...] * is the unix crypt command secure? * how do i use compression with encryption? * is there an unbreakable cipher? * what does ``random'' mean in cryptography? * what is the unicity point (a.k.a. unicity distance)? * what is key management and why is it important? * can i use pseudo-random or chaotic numbers as a key stream? * what is the correct frequency list for english letters? * what is the enigma? * how do i shuffle cards? * can i foil s/w pirates by encrypting my cd-rom? * can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers? * what is the coding system used by vcr+? * how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect? wordperfect encryption has been shown to be very easy to break. the method uses xor with two repeating key streams: a typed password and a byte-wide counter initialized to 1+<the password length>. full descriptions are given in bennett [ben87] and bergen and caelli [ber91]. chris galas writes: ``someone awhile back was looking for a way to decrypt wordperfect document files and i think i have a solution. there is a software company named: accessdata (87 east 600 south, orem, ut 84058), 1-800-658-5199 that has a software package that will decrypt any wordperfect, lotus 1-2-3, quatro-pro, ms excel and paradox files. the cost of the package is $185. steep prices, but if you think your pw key is less than 10 characters, (or 10 char) give them a call and ask for the free demo disk. the demo disk will decrypt files that have a 10 char or less pw key.'' * how do i break a vigenere (repeated-key) cipher? a repeated-key cipher, where the ciphertext is something like the plaintext xor keykeykeykey (and so on), is called a vigenere cipher. if the key is not too long and the plaintext is in english, do the following: 1. discover the length of the key by counting coincidences. (see gaines [gai44], sinkov [sin66].) trying each displacement of the ciphertext against itself, count those bytes which are equal. if the two ciphertext portions have used the same key, something over 6% of the bytes will be equal. if they have used different key, then less than 0.4% will be equal (assuming random 8-bit bytes of key covering normal ascii text). the smallest displacement which indicates an equal key is the length of the repeated key. 2. shift the text by that length and xor it with itself. this removes the key and leaves you with text xored with itself. since english has about 1 bit of real information per byte, 2 streams of text xored together has 2 bits of info per 8-bit byte, providing plenty of redundancy for choosing a unique decryption. (and in fact one stream of text xored with itself has just 1 bit per byte.) if the key is short, it might be even easier to treat this as a standard polyalphabetic substitution. all the old cryptanalysis texts show how to break those. it's possible with those methods, in the hands of an expert, if there's only ten times as much text as key. see, for example, gaines [gai44], sinkov [sin66]. * how do i send encrypted mail under unix? [pgp, ripem, pem, ...] here's one popular method, using the des command: cat file | compress | des private_key | uuencode | mail meanwhile, there is a de jure internet standard in the works called pem (privacy enhanced mail). it is described in rfcs 1421 through 1424. to join the pem mailing list, contact pem-dev-request@tis.com. there is a beta version of pem being tested at the time of this there are also two programs available in the public domain for encrypting mail: pgp and ripem. both are available by ftp. each has its own newsgroup: alt.security.pgp and alt.security.ripem. each has its own faq as well. pgp is most commonly used outside the usa since it uses the rsa algorithm without a license and rsa's patent is valid only (or at least primarily) in the usa. ripem is most commonly used inside the usa since it uses the rsaref which is freely available within the usa but not available for shipment outside the usa. since both programs use a secret key algorithm for encrypting the body of the message (pgp used idea; ripem uses des) and rsa for encrypting the message key, they should be able to interoperate freely. although there have been repeated calls for each to understand the other's formats and algorithm choices, no interoperation is available at this time (as far as we know). * is the unix crypt command secure? no. see [ree84]. there is a program available called cbw (crypt breaker's workbench) which can be used to do ciphertext-only attacks on files encrypted with crypt. one source for cbw is [ftpcb]. * how do i use compression with encryption? a number of people have proposed doing perfect compression followed by some simple encryption method (e.g., xor with a repeated key). unfortunately, you can only compress perfectly if you know the exact distribution of possible inputs. for all practical purposes it's impossible to describe ``the typical english text'' beyond coarse characteristics such as single-letter frequencies. you can build up more and more sophisticated models of your inputs, but if the enemy has a slightly more accurate model, he'll be able to find some redundancy in your compressed output. note that nearly all practical compression schemes, unless they have been designed with cryptography in mind, produce output that actually starts off with high redundancy. for example, the output of unix compress begins with a well-known three-byte ``magic number'' that can serve as an entering wedge for cryptanalysis. this is not to say that compression before encryption is inherently a bad idea; it just has to be done very, very carefully, and by no means removes the need for strong encryption. compression after encryption is silly. * is there an unbreakable cipher? yes. the one-time pad is unbreakable; see part 4. unfortunately the one-time pad requires secure distribution of as much key material as of course, a cryptosystem need not be utterly unbreakable to be useful. rather, it needs to be strong enough to resist attacks by likely enemies for whatever length of time the data it protects is expected to remain valid. * what does ``random'' mean in cryptography? cryptographic applications demand much more out of a pseudorandom number generator than most applications. for a source of bits to be cryptographically random, it must be computationally impossible to predict what the nth random bit will be given complete knowledge of the algorithm or hardware generating the stream and the sequence of 0th through n-1st bits, for all n up to the lifetime of the source. a software generator (also known as pseudo-random) has the function of expanding a truly random seed to a longer string of apparently random bits. this seed must be large enough not to be guessed by the opponent. ideally, it should also be truly random (perhaps generated by a hardware random number source). those who have sparcstation 1 workstations could, for example, generate random numbers using the audio input device as a source of entropy, by not connecting anything to it. for example, cat /dev/audio | compress - >foo gives a file of high entropy (not random but with much randomness in it). one can then encrypt that file using part of itself as a key, for example, to convert that seed entropy into a pseudo-random when looking for hardware devices to provide this entropy, it is important really to measure the entropy rather than just assume that because it looks complicated to a human, it must be "random". for example, disk operation completion times sound like they might be unpredictable (to many people) but a spinning disk is much like a clock and its output completion times are relatively low in entropy. * what is the unicity point (a.k.a. unicity distance)? see [sha49]. the unicity distance is an approximation to that amount of ciphertext such that the sum of the real information (entropy) in the corresponding source text and encryption key equals the number of ciphertext bits used. ciphertexts significantly longer than this can be shown probably to have a unique decipherment. this is used to back up a claim of the validity of a ciphertext-only cryptanalysis. ciphertexts significantly shorter than this are likely to have multiple, equally valid decryptions and therefore to gain security from the opponent's difficulty choosing the correct one. unicity distance, like all statistical or information-theoretic measures, does not make deterministic predictions but rather gives probabilistic results: namely, the minimum amount of ciphertext for which it is likely that there is only a single intelligible plaintext corresponding to the ciphertext, when all possible keys are tried for the decryption. working cryptologists don't normally deal with unicity distance as such. instead they directly determine the likelihood of events of interest. let the unicity distance of a cipher be d characters. if fewer than d ciphertext characters have been intercepted, then there is not enough information to distinguish the real key from a set of possible keys. des has a unicity distance of 17.5 characters, which is less than 3 ciphertext blocks (each block corresponds to 8 ascii characters). this may seem alarmingly low at first, but the unicity distance gives no indication of the computational work required to find the key after approximately d characters have been in fact, actual cryptanalysis seldom proceeds along the lines used in discussing unicity distance. (like other measures such as key size, unicity distance is something that guarantees insecurity if it's too small, but doesn't guarantee security if it's high.) few practical cryptosystems are absolutely impervious to analysis; all manner of characteristics might serve as entering ``wedges'' to crack some cipher messages. however, similar information-theoretic considerations are occasionally useful, for example, to determine a recommended key change interval for a particular cryptosystem. cryptanalysts also employ a variety of statistical and information-theoretic tests to help guide the analysis in the most promising directions. unfortunately, most literature on the application of information statistics to cryptanalysis remains classified, even the seminal 1940 work of alan turing (see [koz84]). for some insight into the possibilities, see [kul68] and [goo83]. * what is key management and why is it important? one of the fundamental axioms of cryptography is that the enemy is in full possession of the details of the general cryptographic system, and lacks only the specific key data employed in the encryption. (of course, one would assume that the cia does not make a habit of telling mossad about its cryptosystems, but mossad probably finds out anyway.) repeated use of a finite amount of key provides redundancy that can eventually facilitate cryptanalytic progress. thus, especially in modern communication systems where vast amounts of information are transferred, both parties must have not only a sound cryptosystem but also enough key material to cover the traffic. key management refers to the distribution, authentication, and handling of keys. a publicly accessible example of modern key management technology is the stu iii secure telephone unit, which for classified use employs individual coded ``crypto ignition keys'' and a central key management center operated by nsa. there is a hierarchy in that certain ciks are used by authorized cryptographic control personnel to validate the issuance of individual traffic keys and to perform installation/maintenance functions, such as the reporting of lost ciks. this should give an inkling of the extent of the key management problem. for public-key systems, there are several related issues, many having to do with ``whom do you trust?'' * can i use pseudo-random or chaotic numbers as a key stream? chaotic equations and fractals produce an apparent randomness from relatively compact generators. perhaps the simplest example is a linear congruential sequence, one of the most popular types of random number generators, where there is no obvious dependence between seeds and outputs. unfortunately the graph of any such sequence will, in a high enough dimension, show up as a regular lattice. mathematically this lattice corresponds to structure which is notoriously easy for cryptanalysts to exploit. more complicated generators have more complicated structure, which is why they make interesting pictures--- but a cryptographically strong sequence will have no computable structure at all. see [knu81], exercise 3.5-7; [ree77]; and [boy89]. * what is the correct frequency list for english letters? there are three answers to this question, each slightly deeper than the one before. you can find the first answer in various books: namely, a frequency list computed directly from a certain sample of english text. of course any such list will be ``correctly'' computed, but exactly which list you get depends on which sample was taken. the second answer is that the question doesn't make sense. what do you mean by ``english letters''? the ``english language'' is not a fixed, finite, closed object that can be exactly characterized. it has changed over time; it is different between different authors. any particular message will have different statistics from those of the language as a whole. the third answer is that yes, no particular message is going to have exactly the same characteristics as english in general, but for all reasonable statistical uses these slight discrepancies won't matter. in fact there's an entire field called ``bayesian statistics'' (other buzzwords are ``maximum entropy methods'' and ``maximum likelihood estimation'') which studies questions like ``what's the chance that a text with these letter frequencies is in english?'' and comes up with reasonably robust answers. so make your own list from your own samples of english text. it will be good enough for practical work, if you use it properly. * what is the enigma? ``for a project in data security we are looking for sources of information about the german enigma code and how it was broken by the british during wwii.'' see [wel82], [dea85], [koz84], [hod83], [kah91]. * how do i shuffle cards? card shuffling is a special case of the permutation of an array of values, using a random or pseudo-random function. all possible output permutations of this process should be equally likely. to do this, you need a random function (modran(x)) which will produce a uniformly distributed random integer in the interval [0..x-1]. given that function, you can shuffle with the following [c] code: (assuming arrlth is the length of array arr[] and swap() interchanges values at the two addresses given) for ( n = arrlth-1; n > 0 ; n-- ) swap( &arr[modran( n+1 )], &arr[n] ) ; modran(x) can not be achieved exactly with a simple (ranno() % x) since ranno()'s interval may not be divisible by x, although in most cases the error will be very small. to cover this case, one can take ranno()'s modulus mod x, call that number y, and if ranno() returns a value less than y, go back and get another ranno() value. * can i foil s/w pirates by encrypting my cd-rom? someone will frequently express the desire to publish a cd-rom with possibly multiple pieces of software, perhaps with each encrypted separately, and will want to use different keys for each user (perhaps even good for only a limited period of time) in order to avoid piracy. as far as we know, this is impossible, since there is nothing in standard pc or workstation hardware which uniquely identifies the user at the keyboard. if there were such an identification, then the cd-rom could be encrypted with a key based in part on the one sold to the user and in part on the unique identifier. however, in this case the cd-rom is one of a kind and that defeats the intended purpose. if the cd-rom is to be encrypted once and then mass produced, there must be a key (or set of keys) for that encryption produced at some stage in the process. that key is useable with any copy of the cd-rom's data. the pirate needs only to isolate that key and sell it along with the illegal copy. * can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers? schneier@chinet.chi.il.us (bruce schneier) says: accessdata of orem, utah sells products that break the password scheme of a number of popular macintosh and pc software packages. their telephone number is (801) 224-6970 no pd software has been cited but there are many papers on the subject.... peleg, s. and rosenfeld, a. "breaking substitution ciphers using a relaxation algorithm" comm. acm vol. 22(11) pp 598-605 (nov. 1979) lucks, michael, "a constraint satisfaction algorithm for the automated decryption of simple substitution ciphers", advances in cryptology -- crypto '88, springer lecture notes in computer science, vol. 403 (the paper also contains references to earlier work on the subject.) john carrol and steve martin, "the automated cryptanalysis of substitution ciphers", cryptologia, vol x number 4, oct 86 p193-209. john carrol and lynda robbins, "automated cryptanalysis of polyalphabetic ciphers", cryptologia, vol xi number 4, oct 87 p193-205 martin kochanski, "a survey of data insecurity packages", cryptologia, vol xi number 1, jan 87 p1-15 martin kochanski, "another data insecurity package", cryptologia, vol xii number 3, july 88, p165-177. cryptologia vol xiii number 4 1989 pp 303-326. king and bahler, "probabilistic relaxation in the cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers" cryptologia 16(3):215-225. king and bahler, "an algorithmic solution of sequential homophonic ciphers". cryptologia, april 93 (in press). r. spillman et.al., "use of genetic algorithms in cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers", cryptologia, vol xvii number 1, jan 93 p31-44. * what is the coding system used by vcr+? one very frequently asked question in sci.crypt is about how the vcr+ codes work. the following article attempts to describe it. k. shirriff, c. welch, a. kinsman, "decoding a vcr controller code," cryptologia, 16(3), july 1992, pp 227-234. 
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part10 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 10: references this is the tenth of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read the first part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in this part. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. * books on history and classical methods * books on modern methods * survey articles * reference articles * journals, conference proceedings * other * electronic sources * rfcs (available from [ftprf]) * related newsgroups * books on history and classical methods [cf] lambros d. callimahos, william f. friedman, military cryptanalytics. aegean park press, ?. [dea85] cipher a. deavours & louis kruh, machine cryptography and modern cryptanalysis. artech house, 610 washington st., dedham, ma 02026, 1985. [frie2] william f. friedman, solving german codes in world war i. aegean park press, ?. [gai44] h. gaines, cryptanalysis, a study of ciphers and their solution. dover publications, 1944. [hin00] f.h.hinsley, et al., british intelligence in the second world war. cambridge university press. (vol's 1, 2, 3a, 3b & 4, so far). xxx years and authors, fix xxx [hod83] andrew hodges, alan turing: the enigma. burnett books ltd., 1983 [kah91] david kahn, seizing the enigma. houghton mifflin, 1991. [kah67] d. kahn, the codebreakers. macmillan publishing, 1967. [history] [the abridged paperback edition left out most technical details; the original hardcover edition is recommended.] [koz84] w. kozaczuk, enigma. university publications of america, 1984 [kul76] s. kullback, statistical methods in cryptanalysis. aegean park press, 1976. [sin66] a. sinkov, elementary cryptanalysis. math. assoc. am. 1966. [wel82] gordon welchman, the hut six story. mcgraw-hill, 1982. [yardl] herbert o. yardley, the american black chamber. aegean park press, ?. * books on modern methods [bek82] h. beker, f. piper, cipher systems. wiley, 1982. [bra88] g. brassard, modern cryptology: a tutorial. spinger-verlag, 1988. [den82] d. denning, cryptography and data security. addison-wesley publishing company, 1982. [kob89] n. koblitz, a course in number theory and cryptography. springer-verlag, 1987. [kon81] a. konheim, cryptography: a primer. wiley, 1981. [mey82] c. meyer and s. matyas, cryptography: a new dimension in computer security. wiley, 1982. [pat87] wayne patterson, mathematical cryptology for computer scientists and mathematicians. rowman & littlefield, 1987. [pfl89] c. pfleeger, security in computing. prentice-hall, 1989. [pri84] w. price, d. davies, security for computer networks. wiley, 1984. [rue86] r. rueppel, design and analysis of stream ciphers. springer-verlag, 1986. [sal90] a. saloma, public-key cryptography. springer-verlag, 1990. [wel88] d. welsh, codes and cryptography. claredon press, 1988. * survey articles [ang83] d. angluin, d. lichtenstein, provable security in crypto- systems: a survey. yale university, department of computer science, #288, 1983. [bet90] t. beth, algorithm engineering for public key algorithms. ieee selected areas of communication, 1(4), 458--466, [dav83] m. davio, j. goethals, elements of cryptology. in secure digital communications, g. longo ed., 1--57, 1983. [dif79] w. diffie, m. hellman, privacy and authentication: an introduction to cryptography. ieee proceedings, 67(3), 397--427, 1979. [dif88] w. diffie, the first ten years of public key cryptography. ieee proceedings, 76(5), 560--577, 1988. [fei73] h. feistel, cryptography and computer privacy. scientific american, 228(5), 15--23, 1973. [fei75] h. feistel, h, w. notz, j. lynn smith. some cryptographic techniques for machine-to-machine data communications, ieee ieee proceedings, 63(11), 1545--1554, 1975. [hel79] m. hellman, the mathematics of public key cryptography. scientific american, 130--139, 1979. [lak83] s. lakshmivarahan, algorithms for public key cryptosystems. in advances in computers, m. yovtis ed., 22, academic press, 45--108, 1983. [lem79] a. lempel, cryptology in transition, computing surveys, 11(4), 285--304, 1979. [mas88] j. massey, an introduction to contemporary cryptology, ieee proceedings, 76(5), 533--549, 1988. [sim91] g. simmons (ed.), contemporary cryptology: the science of information integrity. ieee press, 1991. * reference articles [and83] d. andelman, j. reeds, on the cryptanalysis of rotor and substitution-permutation networks. ieee trans. on inform. theory, 28(4), 578--584, 1982. [ben87] john bennett, analysis of the encryption algorithm used in the wordperfect word processing program. cryptologia 11(4), 206--210, 1987. [ber91] h. a. bergen and w. j. caelli, file security in wordperfect 5.0. cryptologia 15(1), 57--66, january 1991. [bih91] e. biham and a. shamir, differential cryptanalysis of des-like cryptosystems. journal of cryptology, vol. 4, #1, 3--72, 1991. [bi91a] e. biham, a. shamir, differential cryptanalysis of snefru, khafre, redoc-ii, loki and lucifer. in proceedings of crypto '91, ed. by j. feigenbaum, 156--171, 1992. [boy89] j. boyar, inferring sequences produced by pseudo-random number generators. journal of the acm, 1989. [bri86] e. brickell, j. moore, m. purtill, structure in the s-boxes of des. in proceedings of crypto '86, a. m. odlyzko ed., 3--8, 1987. [bro89] l. brown, a proposed design for an extended des, computer security in the computer age. elsevier science publishers b.v. (north holland), ifip, w. j. caelli ed., 9--22, 1989. [bro90] l. brown, j. pieprzyk, j. seberry, loki - a cryptographic primitive for authentication and secrecy applications. in proceedings of austcrypt 90, 229--236, 1990. [cae90] h. gustafson, e. dawson, w. caelli, comparison of block ciphers. in proceedings of auscrypt '90, j. seberry and j. piepryzk eds., 208--220, 1990. [cam93] k. w. campbell, m. j. wiener, proof the des is not a group. in proceedings of crypto '92, 1993. [ell88] carl m. ellison, a solution of the hebern messages. cryptologia, vol. xii, #3, 144-158, jul 1988. [eve83] s. even, o. goldreich, des-like functions can generate the alternating group. ieee trans. on inform. theory, vol. 29, #6, 863--865, 1983. [gar91] g. garon, r. outerbridge, des watch: an examination of the sufficiency of the data encryption standard for financial institutions in the 1990's. cryptologia, vol. xv, #3, 177--193, 1991. [gil80] gillogly, ?. cryptologia 4(2), 1980. [gm82] shafi goldwasser, silvio micali, probabilistic encryption and how to play mental poker keeping secret all partial information. proceedings of the fourteenth annual acm symposium on theory of computing, 1982. [hum83] d. g. n. hunter and a. r. mckenzie, experiments with relaxation algorithms for breaking simple substitution ciphers. computer journal 26(1), 1983. [kam78] j. kam, g. davida, a structured design of substitution- permutation encryption networks. ieee trans. information theory, 28(10), 747--753, 1978. [kin78] p. kinnucan, data encryption gurus: tuchman and meyer. cryptologia, vol. ii #4, 371--xxx, 1978. [kru88] kruh, ?. cryptologia 12(4), 1988. [lai90] x. lai, j. massey, a proposal for a new block encryption standard. eurocrypt 90, 389--404, 1990. [lub88] c. rackoff, m. luby, how to construct psuedorandom permutations from psuedorandom functions. siam journal of computing, vol. 17, #2, 373--386, 1988. [mas88] j. massey, an introduction to contemporary cryptology. ieee proceedings, 76(5), 533--549, 1988. [me91a] r. merkle, fast software encryption functions. in proceedings of crypto '90, menezes and vanstone ed., 476--501, 1991. [mey78] c. meyer, ciphertext/plaintext and ciphertext/key dependence vs. number of rounds for the data encryption standard. afips conference proceedings, 47, 1119--1126, [nbs77] data encryption standard. national bureau of standards, fips pub 46, washington, dc, january 1977. [ree77] j. reeds, `cracking' a random number generator. cryptologia 1(1), 20--26, 1977. [ree84] j. a. reeds and p. j. weinberger, file security and the unix crypt command. at&t bell laboratories technical journal, vol. 63 #8, part 2, 1673--1684, october, 1984. [sha49] c. shannon, communication theory of secrecy systems. bell system technical journal 28(4), 656--715, 1949. [she88] b. kaliski, r. rivest, a. sherman, is the data encryption standard a group. journal of cryptology, vol. 1, #1, 1--36, 1988. [shi88] a. shimizu, s. miyaguchi, fast data encipherment algorithm feal. eurocrypt '87, 267--278, 1988. [sor84] a. sorkin, lucifer: a cryptographic algorithm. cryptologia, 8(1), 22--35, 1984. * journals, conference proceedings ieee transactions on information theory cryptologia: a cryptology journal, quarterly since jan 1977. cryptologia; rose-hulman institute of technology; terre haute indiana 47803 [general: systems, analysis, history, ...] journal of cryptology; international association for cryptologic research; published by springer verlag (quarterly since 1988). the cryptogram (journal of the american cryptogram association); 18789 west hickory street; mundelein, il 60060; [primarily puzzle cryptograms of various sorts] cryptosystems journal, published by tony patti, p.o. box 188, newtown pa, usa 18940-0188 or tony_s_patti@cup.portal.com. publisher's comment: includes complete cryptosystems with source and executable programs on diskettes. tutorial. the typical cryptosystems supports multi-megabit keys and galois field arithmetic. inexpensive hardware random number generator details. computer and communication security reviews, published by ross anderson. sample issue available from various ftp sites, including black.ox.ac.uk. editorial c/o rja14@cl.cam.ac.uk. publisher's comment: we review all the conference proceedings in this field, including not just crypto and eurocrypt, but regional gatherings like auscrypt and chinacrypt. we also abstract over 50 journals, and cover computer security as well as cryptology, so readers can see the research trends in applications as well as theory. * other address of note: aegean park press, p.o. box 2837, laguna hills, ca 92654-0837. answering machine at 714-586-8811. the ``orange book'' is dod 5200.28-std, published december 1985 as part of the ``rainbow book'' series. write to department of defense, national security agency, attn: s332, 9800 savage road, fort meade, md 20755-6000, and ask for the trusted computer system evaluation criteria. or call 301-766-8729. [bamfd] bamford, the puzzle palace. penguin books, ?. [goo83] i. j. good, good thinking: the foundations of probability and its applications. university of minnesota press, 1983. [knu81] d. e. knuth, the art of computer programming, volume 2: seminumerical algorithms. addison-wesley, 1981. [kul68] soloman kullbach, information theory and statistics. dover, 1968. [yao88] a. yao, computational information theory. in complexity in information theory, ed. by abu-mostafa, 1988. * how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein? many textbooks on cryptography contain complete reprints of the fips standards, which are not copyrighted. the following standards may be ordered from the u.s. department of commerce, national technical information service, springfield, va 22161. fips pub 46-1 "data encryption standard" (this is des) fips pub 74 "guidelines for implementing as using the nbs des" fips pub 81 "des modes of operation" fips pub 113 "computer data authentication" (using des) the following standards may be ordered from the american national standards institute sales office, 1430 broadway, new york, ny 10018. phone 212.642.4900 ansi x3.92-1981 "data encryption algorithm" (identical to fips 46-1) ansi x3.106-1983 "dea modes of operation" (identical to fips 113) notes: figure 3 in fips pub 46-1 is in error, but figure 3 in x3.92-1981 is correct. the text is correct in both publications. * electronic sources anonymous ftp: [ftpbk] ftp.uu.net:bsd-sources/usr.bin/des/ [ftpcb] ftp.uu.net:usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume10/cbw/ [ftpdf] ftp.funet.fi:pub/unix/security/destoo.tar.z [ftpey] ftp.psy.uq.oz.au:pub/des/ [ftpmd] rsa.com:? [ftpmr] cl-next3.cl.msu.edu:pub/crypt/newdes.tar.z [ftpob] ftp.3com.com:orange-book [ftppf] prep.ai.mit.edu:pub/lpf/ [ftppk] ucsd.edu:hamradio/packet/tcpip/crypto/des.tar.z [ftprf] nic.merit.edu:documents/rfc/ [ftpsf] beta.xerox.com:pub/hash/ [ftpso] chalmers.se:pub/des/des.1.0.tar.z [ftpuf] ftp.uu.net:usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume28/ufc-crypt/ [ftpwp] garbo.uwasa.fi:pc/util/wppass2.zip * rfcs (available from [ftprf]) 1424 kaliski, b. privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail: part iv: key certification and related services. 1993 february; 9 p. (format: txt=17538 bytes) 1423 balenson, d. privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail: part iii: algorithms, modes, and identifiers. 1993 february; 14 p. (format: txt=33278 bytes) (obsoletes rfc 1115) 1422 kent, s. privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail: part ii: certificate-based key management. 1993 february; 32 p. (format: txt=86086 bytes) (obsoletes rfc 1114) 1421 linn, j. privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail: part i: message encryption and authentication procedures. 1993 february; 42 p. (format: txt=103895 bytes) (obsoletes rfc 1113) * related newsgroups there are other newsgroups which a sci.crypt reader might want also to read. some have their own faq as well. alt.comp.compression discussion of compression algorithms and code alt.security general security discussions alt.security.index index to alt.security alt.security.pgp discussion of pgp alt.security.ripem discussion of ripem alt.society.civil-liberty general civil liberties, including privacy comp.org.eff.news news reports from eff comp.org.eff.talk discussion of eff related issues comp.patents discussion of s/w patents, including rsa comp.risks some mention of crypto and wiretapping comp.society.privacy general privacy issues comp.security.announce announcements of security holes misc.legal.computing sci.math general math discussion 
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 here's a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one: make it voluntary. that is--you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key. otherwise you are on your own. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part05 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 5: product ciphers this is the fifth of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read the first part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in the last part. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. contents: * what is a product cipher? * what makes a product cipher secure? * what are some group-theoretic properties of product ciphers? * what can be proven about the security of a product cipher? * how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size? * can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication? * what exactly is des? * what is triple des? * what is differential cryptanalysis? * how was nsa involved in the design of des? * is des available in software? * is des available in hardware? * can des be used to protect classified information? * what are "ecb", "cbc", "cfb", and "ofb" encryption? * what is a product cipher? a product cipher is a block cipher that iterates several weak operations such as substitution, transposition, modular addition/multiplication, and linear transformation. (a ``block cipher'' just means a cipher that encrypts a block of data---8 bytes, say---all at once, then goes on to the next block.) the notion of product ciphers is due to shannon [sha49]. examples of modern product ciphers include lucifer [sor84], des [nbs77], sp-networks [kam78], loki [bro90], feal [shi84], pes [lai90], khufu and khafre [me91a]. the so-called feistel ciphers are a class of product ciphers which operate on one half of the ciphertext at each round, and then swap the ciphertext halves after each round. lucifer, des, loki, and feal are examples of feistel ciphers. the following table compares the main parameters of several product ciphers: cipher | block length | key bits | number of rounds lucifer 128 128 16 des 64 56 16 loki 64 64 16 feal 64 128 2^x, x >= 5 pes 64 128 8 * what makes a product cipher secure? nobody knows how to prove mathematically that a product cipher is completely secure. so in practice one begins by demonstrating that the cipher ``looks highly random''. for example, the cipher must be nonlinear, and it must produce ciphertext which functionally depends on every bit of the plaintext and the key. meyer [mey78] has shown that at least 5 rounds of des are required to guarantee such a dependence. in this sense a product cipher should act as a ``mixing'' function which combines the plaintext, key, and ciphertext in a complex nonlinear fashion. the fixed per-round substitutions of the product cipher are referred to as s-boxes. for example, lucifer has 2 s-boxes, and des has 8 s-boxes. the nonlinearity of a product cipher reduces to a careful design of these s-boxes. a list of partial design criteria for the s-boxes of des, which apply to s-boxes in general, may be found in brown [bro89] and brickell et al. [bri86]. * what are some group-theoretic properties of product ciphers? let e be a product cipher that maps n-bit blocks to n-bit blocks. let e_k(x) be the encryption of x under key k. then, for any fixed k, the map sending x to e_k(x) is a permutation of the set of n-bit blocks. denote this permutation by p_k. the set of all n-bit permutations is called the symmetric group and is written s_{2^n}. the collection of all these permutations p_k, where k ranges over all possible keys, is denoted e(s_{2^n}). if e were a random mapping from plaintexts to ciphertexts then we would expect e(s_{2^n}) to generate a large subset of s_{2^n}. coppersmith and grossman [cop74] have shown that a very simple product cipher can generate the alternating group a_{2^n} given a sufficient number of rounds. (the alternating group is half of the symmetric group: it consists of all ``even'' permutations, i.e., all permutations which can be written as an even number of swaps.) even and goldreich [eve83] were able to extend these results to show that feistel ciphers can generate a_{2^n}, given a sufficient number of rounds. the security of multiple encipherment also depends on the group-theoretic properties of a cipher. multiple encipherment is an extension over single encipherment if for keys k1, k2 there does not exist a third key k3 such that e_k2(e_k1(x)) == e_(k3)(x) (**) which indicates that encrypting twice with two independent keys k1, k2 is equal to a single encryption under the third key k3. if for every k1, k2 there exists a k3 such that eq. (**) is true then we say that e is a group. this question of whether des is a group under this definition was extensively studied by sherman, kaliski, and rivest [she88]. in their paper they give strong evidence for the hypothesis that des is not a group. in fact des is not a group [cam93]. * what can be proven about the security of a product cipher? recall from above that p_k is a permutation produced by e under some key k. the goal of the designer of e is to ensure that p_k appears to be a random element of s_{2^n}, the symmetric group. let r be an element of s_{2^n} selected randomly. we will say that p_k and r are indistinguishable if an observer given p_k and r in some order cannot distinguish between these two permutations in polynomial time. that is, with time bounded resources, the observer cannot determine which of the permutations is produced by e: the optimal decision is no better than simply guessing. luby and rackoff [lub88] have shown that a class of feistel ciphers are secure in this sense when the round mapping is replaced by random boolean functions. * how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size? there are four standard "modes of operation" (and numerous non-standard ones as well). the standard modes of operation are defined in the u.s. department of commerce federal information processing standard (fips) 81, published in 1980. see the question about "ecb" below for more details. although they are defined for the des block cipher, the "modes of operation" can be used with any block cipher. * can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication? one may use a symmetric cryptosystem block cipher to prove to himself that he did or did not generate a message, and to prove to himself whether his message was altered or unaltered since generation. but one cannot prove these things to another without revealing the key, and thereafter that key cannot be used to prove anything about any messages that were authenticated using that key. see ansi x3.106-1983 and fips 113 (1985) for a standard method of message authentication using des. * what exactly is des? des is the u.s. government's data encryption standard - a product cipher that operates on 64-bit blocks of data, using a 56-bit key. it is defined in fips 46-1 (1988) [which supersedes fips 46 (1977)]. fips are federal information processing standards published by ntis. des is identical to the ansi standard data encryption algorithm (dea) defined in ansi x3.92-1981. * what is triple des? triple des is a product cipher which, like des, operates on 64-bit data blocks. there are several forms, each of which uses the des cipher 3 times. some forms use two 56-bit keys, some use three. the "des modes of operation" may also be used with triple-des. some people refer to e(k1,d(k2,e(k1,x))) as triple-des. this method is defined in chapter 7.2 of the ansi standard x9.17-1985 "financial institution key management" and is intended for use in encrypting des keys and ivs for "automated key distribution". its formal name is "encryption and decryption of a single key by a key pair", but it is referenced in other standards documents as ede. that standard says (section 7.2.1): "key encrypting keys may be a single dea key or a dea key pair. key pairs shoud be used where additional security is needed (e.g., the data protected by the key(s) has a long security life). a key pair shall not be encrypted or decrypted using a single key." others use the term "triple-des" for e(k1,d(k2,e(k3,x))) or e(k1,e(k2,e(k3,x))). one of us (carl ellison) keeps advocating des triple use in the form e(k1, tran( e(k2, tran( e(k3, compress( x )))))), where each des instance has its own key and iv (for cbc mode) and tran has been posted on sci.crypt. (it is a large-block transposition program taking its key from the data stream itself, so that it is not an encryption program on its own part.) * what is differential cryptanalysis? differential cryptanalysis is a statistical attack that can be applied to any iterated mapping (ie. any mapping which is based on a repeated round function). the method was recently popularized by biham and shamir [bih91], but coppersmith has remarked that the s-boxes of des were optimized against this attack some 20 years ago. this method has proved effective against several product ciphers, notably feal [bi91a]. differential cryptanalysis is based on observing a large number of ciphertexts y, y' whose corresponding plaintexts x, x' satisfy a known difference d = x+x', where + is componentwise xor. in the basic biham-shamir attack, 2^{47} such plaintext pairs are required to determine the key for des. substantially fewer pairs are required if des is truncated to 6 or 8 rounds. in these cases, the actual key can be recovered in a matter of minutes using a few thousand pairs. for full des this attack is impractical because it requires so many known plaintexts. the work of biham and shamir on des revealed several startling observations on the algorithm. most importantly, if the key schedule was removed from des and a 16*48 = 768-bit key was used, the key could be recovered in less than 2^{64} steps. thus independent subkeys do not add substantial security to des. further, the s-boxes of des are extremely sensitive in that changing even single entries in these tables yields significant improvement in the differential attack. adi shamir is quoted to say (nytimes oct 13 1991), ``i would say that, contrary to what some people believe, there is no evidence of tampering with the des so that the basic design was weakened.'' * how was nsa involved in the design of des? according to kinnucan [kin78], tuchman, a member of the group that developed des at ibm is quoted as saying, ``we developed the des algorithm entirely within ibm using ibmers. the nsa did not dictate a single wire!'' tuchman and meyer (another developer of des) spent a year breaking ciphers and finding weaknesses in lucifer. they then spent two years strengthening lucifer. ``their basic approach was to look for strong substitution, permutation, and key scheduling functions ... ibm has classified the notes containing the selection criteria at the request of the nsa.... `the nsa told us we had inadvertently reinvented some of the deep secrets it uses to make its own algorithms,' explains tuchman.'' on the other hand, a document called ``involvement of the nsa in the development of des: unclassified summary of the united states select committee on intelligence'', printed in the ieee communications magazine, p53-55, 1978, states: ``in the development of des, nsa convinced ibm that a reduced keysize was sufficient; indirectly assisted in the development of the s-box structures; and certified that the final des algorithm was, to the best of their knowledge, free from any statistical or mathematical weakness.'' clearly the key size was reduced at the insistence of the nsa. the article further states that the nsa did not tamper with the algorithm itself, just the parameters, which in some sense resolves the apparent conflict in the remarks of meyer and tuchman presented above. * is des available in software? several people have made des code available via ftp (see part 10 for pathnames): stig ostholm [ftpso]; bsd [ftpbk]; eric young [ftpey]; dennis furguson [ftpdf]; mark riordan [ftpmr]; phil karn [ftppk]. a pascal listing of des is also given in patterson [pat87]. fips 46-1 says "the algorithm specified in this standard is to be implemented ... using hardware (not software) technology. ... software implementations in general purpose computers are not in compliance with this standard." despite this, software implementations abound, and are used by government agencies. * is des available in hardware? the following paragraphs are quoted from messages sent to the editors. we don't vouch for the quality or even existence of the products. chip rosenthal says: ``dallas semiconductor makes a des encryption/decryption device for use on standard, digital 64kbps pcm telecom data streams. it is capable of processing data in real time, e.g. one sample/frame. it is the ds2160. their phone number is 214-450-0400. you would probably need to talk with dewight in telecom marketing.'' christian franke, franke@informatik.rwth-aachen.de, says: ``1. cryptech cry12c102: 22.5mbit/s according to data sheet, with 32 bit interface. we use this one, because it was the only one available when we started the project. no problems ! 2. pijnenburg pcc100: 20mbit/s according to data sheet. address: pijnenburg b.v., boxtelswweg 26, nl-5261 ne vught, the netherlands. 3. infosys des chip (germany): s-boxes must be loaded by software. so you can modify the algorithm. sorry, i don't have the data sheet handy. please e-mail me if you need further information.'' mjr@tis.com (marcus j ranum) says: "supercrypt" 100mb/sec and faster des and proprietary storage for 16 56-bit keys key stream generator integrated hardware des3 procedure extended mode with 112 bit keys; computer elektronik infosys; 512-a herndon parkway,; herndon, va 22070; (800)322-3464 thember@gandalf.ca (tim hember) says: newbridge microsystems sells an am9568 compatible des chip that operates at 25mhz, performs a round of encryption in 18 clocks, has a three-stage pipeline, supports ecb, cbc, cfb-8 and >>> cfb-1 <<<<. further it is very reasonable priced as opposed to other high-end des chips. call newbridge microsystems, ottawa, (613) 592-0714. (... there are no import/export issues with canada and the us). if you require custom des or public key ics then timestep engineering developed newbridge's crypto chips and ics for other commercial and educational establishments. they can be reached at (613) 820-0024. * can des be used to protect classified information? des is not intended to protect classified data. fips 46-1 says: "this standard will be used by federal departments and agencies for the cryptographic protection of computer data when the following conditions apply: 1. ... cryptographic protection is required; and 2. the data is not classified according to the national security act of 1947, as amended, or the atomic energy act of 1954, as amended." * what are "ecb", "cbc", "cfb", and "ofb" encryption? these are methods for using block ciphers, such as des, to encrypt messages, files, and blocks of data, known as "modes of operation." four "modes of operation" are defined in fips 81 (1980 december 2), and also in ansi x3.106-1983. fips 81 specifies that when 7-bit ascii data is sent in octets, the unused most-significant bit is to be set to 1. fips 81 also specifies the padding for short blocks. the four des modes of operation are: electronic code book (ecb), cipher block chaining (cbc), k-bit cipher feedback (cfb), and k-bit output feedback (ofb). these methods are explained below in a c-language-like notation. some symbols: p[n] the n'th block of plaintext, input to encryption, output from decryption. size of block determined by the mode. c[n] the n'th block of ciphertext, output from encryption, input to decryption. size of block determined by the mode. e(m) the des encryption function, performed on 64-bit block m, using the 16-key schedule derived from some 56-bit key. d(m) the des decryption function, performed on 64-bit block m, using the same key schedule as in e(m), except that the 16 keys in the schedule are used in the opposite order as in e(m). iv a 64-bit "initialization vector", a secret value which, along with the key, is shared by both encryptor and decryptor. i[n] the n'th value of a 64-bit variable, used in some modes. r[n] the n'th value of a 64-bit variable, used in some modes. lsb(m,k) the k least significant (right-most) bits of m. e.g. m & ((1 << k) - 1) msb(m,k) the k most significant (left-most) bits of m. e.g. (m >> (64-k)) & ((1 << k) - 1) = ^ << >> & operators as defined in the c langage. electronic code book (ecb): p[n] and c[n] are each 64-bits long. encryption: decryption: c[n] = e(p[n]) p[n] = d(c[n]) cipher block chaining (cbc): p[n] and c[n] are each 64-bits long. encryption: decryption: c[0] = e(p[0]^iv) p[0] = d(c[0])^iv (n>0) c[n] = e(p[n]^c[n-1]) p[n] = d(c[n])^c[n-1] k-bit cipher feedback (cfb): p[n] and c[n] are each k bits long, 1 <= k <= 64. encryption: decryption: i[0] = iv i[0] = iv (n>0) i[n] = i[n-1]<<k | c[n-1] i[n] = i[n-1]<<k | c[n-1] (all n) r[n] = msb(e(i[n]),k) r[n] = msb(e(i[n]),k) (all n) c[n] = p[n]^r[n] p[n] = c[n]^r[n] note that for k==64, this reduces to: i[0] = iv i[0] = iv (n>0) i[n] = c[n-1] i[n] = c[n-1] (all n) r[n] = e(i[n]) r[n] = e(i[n]) (all n) c[n] = p[n]^r[n] p[n] = c[n]^r[n] cfb notes: since i[n] depends only on the plain or cipher text from the previous operation, the e() function can be performed in parallel with the reception of the text with which it is used. k-bit output feedback (ofb): p[n] and c[n] are each k bits long, 1 <= k <= 64. encryption: decryption: i[0] = iv i[0] = iv (n>0) i[n] = i[n-1]<<k | r[n-1] i[n] = i[n-1]<<k | r[n-1] (all n) r[n] = msb(e(i[n]),k) r[n] = msb(e(i[n]),k) (all n) c[n] = p[n]^r[n] p[n] = c[n]^r[n] note that for k==64, this reduces to: i[0] = iv i[0] = iv (n>0) i[n] = r[n-1] i[n] = r[n-1] (all n) r[n] = e(i[n]) r[n] = e(i[n]) (all n) c[n] = p[n]^r[n] p[n] = c[n]^r[n] ofb notes: encryption and decryption are identical. since i[n] is independent of p and c, the e() function can be performed in advance of the receipt of the plain/cipher text with which it is to be used. additional notes on des "modes of operation": ecb and cbc use e() to encrypt and d() to decrypt, but the feedback modes use e() to both encrypt and decrypt. this disproves the erroneous claim that systems which feature e() but not d() cannot be used for data confidentiality, and therefore are not subject to export controls. 
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part06 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 6: public-key cryptography this is the sixth of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read the first part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in the last part. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. contents: * what is public-key cryptography? * what's rsa? * is rsa secure? * how fast can people factor numbers? * what about other public-key cryptosystems? * what is public-key cryptography? in a classic cryptosystem, we have encryption functions e_k and decryption functions d_k such that d_k(e_k(p)) = p for any plaintext p. in a public-key cryptosystem, e_k can be easily computed from some ``public key'' x which in turn is computed from k. x is published, so that anyone can encrypt messages. if d_k cannot be easily computed from x, then only the person who generated k can decrypt messages. that's the essence of public-key cryptography, published by diffie and hellman in 1976. in a classic cryptosystem, if you want your friends to be able to send secret messages to you, you have to make sure nobody other than them sees the key k. in a public-key cryptosystem, you just publish x, and you don't have to worry about spies. this is only the beginning of public-key cryptography. there is an extensive literature on security models for public-key cryptography, applications of public-key cryptography, other applications of the mathematical technology behind public-key cryptography, and so on. * what's rsa? rsa is a public-key cryptosystem defined by rivest, shamir, and adleman. for full details, there is a faq available by ftp at rsa.com. here's a small example. plaintexts are positive integers up to 2^{512}. keys are quadruples (p,q,e,d), with p a 256-bit prime number, q a 258-bit prime number, and d and e large numbers with (de - 1) divisible by (p-1)(q-1). we define e_k(p) = p^e mod pq, d_k(c) = c^d mod pq. now e_k is easily computed from the pair (pq,e)---but, as far as anyone knows, there is no easy way to compute d_k from the pair (pq,e). so whoever generates k can publish (pq,e). anyone can send a secret message to him; he is the only one who can read the messages. * is rsa secure? nobody knows. an obvious attack on rsa is to factor pq into p and q. see below for comments on how fast state-of-the-art factorization algorithms run. unfortunately nobody has the slightest idea how to prove that factorization---or any realistic problem at all, for that matter---is inherently slow. it is easy to formalize what we mean by ``rsa is/isn't strong''; but, as hendrik w. lenstra, jr., says, ``exact definitions appear to be necessary only when one wishes to prove that algorithms with certain properties do _not_ exist, and theoretical computer science is notoriously lacking in such negative results.'' * how fast can people factor numbers? it depends on the size of the numbers. in october 1992 arjen lenstra and dan bernstein factored 2^523 - 1 into primes, using about three weeks of maspar time. (the maspar is a 16384-processor simd machine; each processor can add about 200000 integers per second.) the algorithm there is called the ``number field sieve''; it is quite a bit faster for special numbers like 2^523 - 1 than for general numbers n, but it takes time only about exp(o(log^{1/3} n log^{2/3} log n)) in any case. an older and more popular method for smaller numbers is the ``multiple polynomial quadratic sieve'', which takes time exp(o(log^{1/2} n log^{1/2} log n))---faster than the number field sieve for small n, but slower for large n. the breakeven point is somewhere between 100 and 150 digits, depending on the implementations. factorization is a fast-moving field---the state of the art just a few years ago was nowhere near as good as it is now. if no new methods are developed, then 2048-bit rsa keys will always be safe from factorization, but one can't predict the future. (before the number field sieve was found, many people conjectured that the quadratic sieve was asymptotically as fast as any factoring method could be.) * what about other public-key cryptosystems? we've talked about rsa because it's well known and easy to describe. but there are lots of other public-key systems around, many of which are faster than rsa or depend on problems more widely believed to be difficult. this has been just a brief introduction; if you really want to learn about the many facets of public-key cryptography, consult the books and journal articles listed in part 10. 
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 archive-name: cryptography-faq/part07 last-modified: 1993/4/15 faq for sci.crypt, part 7: digital signatures and hash functions this is the seventh of ten parts of the sci.crypt faq. the parts are mostly independent, but you should read the first part before the rest. we don't have the time to send out missing parts by mail, so don't ask. notes such as ``[kah67]'' refer to the reference list in the last part. the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu as /pub/usenet/news.answers/cryptography-faq/part[xx]. the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci.crypt, sci.answers, and news.answers every 21 days. contents: * what is a one-way hash function? * what is the difference between public, private, secret, shared, etc.? * what are md4 and md5? * what is snefru? * what is a one-way hash function? a typical one-way hash function takes a variable-length message and produces a fixed-length hash. given the hash it is computationally impossible to find a message with that hash; in fact one can't determine any usable information about a message with that hash, not even a single bit. for some one-way hash functions it's also computationally impossible to determine two messages which produce the same hash. a one-way hash function can be private or public, just like an encryption function. here's one application of a public one-way hash function, like md5 or snefru. most public-key signature systems are relatively slow. to sign a long message may take longer than the user is willing to wait. solution: compute the one-way hash of the message, and sign the hash, which is short. now anyone who wants to verify the signature can do the same thing. another name for one-way hash function is message digest function. * what is the difference between public, private, secret, shared, etc.? there is a horrendous mishmash of terminology in the literature for a very small set of concepts. when an algorithm depends on a key which isn't published, we call it a private algorithm; otherwise we call it a public algorithm. we have encryption functions e and decryption functions d, so that d(e(m)) = m for any message m. we also have hashing functions h and verification functions v, such that v(m,x) = 1 if and only if x = h(m). a public-key cryptosystem has public encryption and private decryption. checksums, such as the application mentioned in the previous question, have public hashing and public verification. digital signature functions have private hashing and public verification: only one person can produce the hash for a message, but everyone can verify that the hash is correct. obviously, when an algorithm depends on a private key, it's meant to be unusable by anyone who doesn't have the key. there's no real difference between a ``shared'' key and a private key: a shared key isn't published, so it's private. if you encrypt data for a friend rather than ``for your eyes only'', are you suddenly doing ``shared-key encryption'' rather than private-key encryption? no. * what are md4 and md5? md4 and md5 are message digest functions developed by ron rivest. definitions appear in rfc 1320 and rfc 1321 (see part 10). code is available from [ftpmd]. note that a transcription error was found in the original md5 draft rfc. the corrected algorithm should be called md5a, though some people refer to it as md5. * what is snefru? snefru is a family of message digest functions developed by ralph merkle. snefru-8 is an 8-round function, the newest in the family. definitions appear in merkle's paper [me91a]. code is available from [ftpsf]. 
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 for your application, what you can do is to encrypt the real-time clock value with a secret key. well, almost.... if i only had to solve the problem for myself, and were willing to have to type in a second password (the secret key) whenever i logged in, it could work. however, i'm trying to create a solution that anyone can use, and which, once installed, is just as effortless to start up as the non-solution of just using xhost(1) to control access. i've got religeous problems with storing secret keys on multiuser computers. for a good discussion of cryptographically "good" random number generators, check out the draft-ietf-security-randomness-00.txt internet draft, available at your local friendly internet drafts thanks for the pointer! it was good reading, and i liked the idea of using several unrelated sources with a strong mixing function. however, unless i missed something, the only source they suggested (aside from a hardware rng) that seems available, and unguessable by an intruder, when a unix is fresh-booted, is i/o buffers related to network traffic. i believe my solution basically uses that strategy, without requiring me to reach into the kernel. a reasonably source of randomness is the output of a cryptographic hash function (e.g., md5), when fed with a large amount of more-or-less random data. for example, running md5 on /dev/mem is a slow, but random enough, source of random bits; there are bound to be 128 bits of entropy in the tens (or hundreds) of megabytes of data in a modern workstation's memory, as a fair amount of them are system timers, i/o buffers, etc. i heard about this solution, and it sounded good. then i heard that folks were experiencing times of 30-60 seconds to run this, on reasonably-configured workstations. i'm not willing to add that much delay to someone's login process. my approach (etherfind|compress, skip 10k) takes a second or two to run. i'm considering writing the be-all and end-all of solutions, that launches the md5, and simultaneously tries to suck bits off the net, and if the net should be sitting __so__ idle that it can't get 10k after compression before md5 finishes, use the md5. this way i could have guaranteed good bits, and a deterministic upper bound on login time, and still have the common case of login take only a couple of extra seconds. bet@sbi.com 
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 : it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you, and the escrow : houses release your code to the cops, your code is now no longer secure. : it's in the hands of cops, and while i am sure most of the time they are : good, their security will not be as good as the escrow houses. : what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you, : at the end of the wiretap, they should be obligated to inform you that : a tap was performed, and replace (for free) the clipper chip in your : cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the : escrow houses. getting the court order to reveal the key *also* makes decipherable all *past* conversations (which may be on tape, or disk, or whatver), as i understand the proposal. i could be wrong, but i've seen no mention of "session keys" being the escrowed entities. as the eff noted, this raises further issues about the fruits of one bust leading to incrimination in other areas. but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) and it may also become much worse if the ostensible security is increased, thus allowing greater access to "central office" records by the government (the conversations being encrypted, who will object to letting the government have access to them, perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions...). this was one of the main objections to the s.266 proposal, that it would force telecom suppliers to provide easy access for the government. one the government has had access to months or years of your encrypted conversations, now all it takes is one misstep, one violation that gets them the paperwork needed to decrypt *all* of them! do we want anyone to have this kind of power? -tim may, whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime a remark i heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance. the comment was made that "in other parts of the world the democrats [note the big "d"] would be known as socialists" a [note the small "d"] democrat who wonders what thomas jefferson, on this the 250th anniversary of his birth, would have thought of the state of affairs between the government and the governed. ------- any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer. -------- steven c. johnson, wb3iru / vk2gds | trw | johnson@trwacs.fp.trw.com fp1 / 3133 | [129.193.172.90] 1 federal systems park drive | phone: +1 (703) 968.1000 fairfax, virginia 22033-4412 u.s.a. | fax: +1 (703) 803.5189 ------- any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer. -------- steven c. johnson, wb3iru / vk2gds | trw | johnson@trwacs.fp.trw.com fp1 / 3133 | [129.193.172.90] 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15261">
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 stupid me. i believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives. clinton is just more clever than the other guy. looks like gun control for privacy technology. one small step at a time. remember "defend firearms - defeat dukakis", followed by bush's soon-after- election support for gun-control? this is the democrats' version "defend free speech - reject republicans" followed by speech control. wait a minute.... let me think about this. hmmm, i feel better now. i believe the white house when they tell us this first step is, in fact, the final step. all is ok. we've nothing to fear. they're here to help us. god bless america. hey, like the grrreat j.r. "bob" dobbs says, you've got to pull the wool over your *own* eyes! # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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 encryption's dual-edge sword: encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry, but it also can shield criminals and terrorists. we need the "clipper chip" and other just a random passing thought, but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists. (excluding the iran-contra gang) shaun p. hughes sphughes@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu finger for pgp 2.2 public key 
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 fascinating. most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was *not* said. it gives us almost nothing of value, threatens to take away a lot, and does it with a sincere smile on its face, and the nice friendly word "management". fact sheet public encryption management the first thing it doesn't say is "we're giving you stronger encryption". what it says is the u. s. government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard, but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption. the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization. but des is strong enough that only the government can break it now, so the major effect is to make it easier for government to break! *at best* it makes it more difficult for the nsa to break, since they need to get one of the two escrowed keys to do a brute-force search for the other 40-bit key. similarly, it didn't say "we're making encryption is commercially available." because encryption *is* already commercially available, including forms the nsa may not be able to break, like triple-des or idea. and phone companies could offer des-based systems *now* if they were convinced the government would let them and they could make enough money. the next thing it didn't say is "we're making encryption legal", because of course encryption *has always been* legal, and the president can't change the first amendment merely by decree. what it *did* say was: in making this decision, i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing, or the government from approving, other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key- escrow system. which clearly means "we're making encryption illegal unless we get your keys. soon. once business buys into this." another thing it didn't say is "we're going to ask congress for money to do *lots* more wiretapping", because of course, there's a budget crisis, and congress might debate the policy issues or not give them the cash. what it *did* say was: the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government's ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications. further, the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase. which means "we've got money congress can't control and we're going to buy lots of wiretapping equipment with it to detect non-approved crypto (that's what "preserve the government's ability to conduct ... surveillance" means.) # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15265">
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 right on the heels of the clinton "registered encryption key" debacle comes: [from yesterdays s.f. chronicle] "president clinton has asked congress for authority to spend more money on spy agencies, satellites and other intelligence activities in fiscal 1994 than it allotted for 1993, congressional and administration officials say. " .... clinton had promised to slash intelligence spending by $7 billion over four years. .... although the size of the nations' vast intelligence budget remains an official secret, administration and congressional officials disclosed yesterday that it would total about $28 billion if the increase requested by clinton is approved. wonder how much of that extra money goes into coming up with encryption schemes they can easily crack? the theorem theorem: if if, then then 
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 fascinating. most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was *not* said. it gives us almost nothing of value, threatens to take away a lot, and does it with a sincere smile on its face, and the nice friendly word "management". the computer, err, government, is your friend. have a nice day (under penalty of law). to refuse praise is to seek praise twice. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15269">
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 distribution: na no thanks. this topic is of interest to a much wider audience. in making this decision, i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing, or the government from approving, other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key- escrow system. "in making this decision, i intend to prevent the private sector from developing, except with the government's approval, other microcircuits or algorithms that are more effective in assuring privacy." --apb alan barrett, dept. of electronic eng., univ. of natal, durban, south africa rfc822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15270">
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 but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) excuse me? this has *already* happened. there's a couple of humps in the tent already. ask the folks at qualcomm what became of the non-trivial encryption scheme they proposed for use in their cdma digitial cellular phone standard? there *already* are restrictions in louis mamakos 
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 :judge: "i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key : itself" :you: "the keyphrase is: "i confess to deliberately evading copyright; : the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of : copyrighted peanuts strips."" :judge and cp: "oh." : how will they get you now? i'm not saying that they won't, or :can't (or even that they shouldn't :-), but what legal mechanism will :they use? should we be crossposting this to misc.legal? hm, could another court try you via a bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial? ie your judge is a state judge, and then a federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail. kenneth ng please reply to ken@blue.njit.edu for now. "all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone's table" -- j.l. picard: st:tng 
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 i have been chided for stating that dorthy denning was intellectually dishonest in the acm debate and in this newsgroup. i have previously refrained from suggesting that she is arguing on behalf of consulting now, i say that it is clear that dorthy denning has been functioning as a lobbyist, not a computer scientist. she has used legal ethics (truth is what you can convince anyone of), not scientific ethics (truth is understanding the external world). maybe we can revoke her acm membership? 8) i suggest that you refrain from such insults unless and until you can produce some evidence to back up that claim. given the measures proposed or passed in the last year or so, such as s.266 and the scanner ban, her proposal need not be any more than her own attempt at a technical solution. it's entirely possible, in fact, that it was the notion of splitting the key, which came up in the debate, that softened this proposal. 
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 and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company, and since the phone company complies with court orders, they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out a warrant on you, and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house. lets hope. years ago a telecom tech refused to tap a line unless he saw the warrant. the managment type who told him to do it fired him. the appeal against the dismissal was lost. who makes them forget and destroy all copies of the key once they've decided you're not a criminal today? just curious. good luck. ~paul 
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 i have a question about digital communications encryption: the fact sheet mentioned encryption/decryption microcircuitry with special "keys" for law enforcement for wire tapping purposes. if i wanted to, couldn't i develop encryption of my own? that is, if me and a partner in crime had unique encryption/decryption devices installed before the "tappable" one, couldn't we circumvent the "keys" system? or replace it? i'd be really interested in knowing how the e/d microcircuits might be made to prevent such befuddlement! (laymans' language, please! maybe a bit technical...) please e-mail to me, as i'm not in net news as much as i'd like to be! deuelpm@craft.camp.clarkson.edu deuelpm@craft.camp.clarkson.edu "*regret* is a rough sheet to sleep on." -herman brooks 
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 |> the actual algorithm is classified, however, their main thrust here is |> for cellular phones, and encryption is only over the radio end, not |> end to end, i think. end to end will come later. encrypting just the radio link doesn't make sense to me. that means the telco has to do the decryption, and hence they need the keys. how are they going to be kept secure? 
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 but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) not to pick on mr. may in particular, of course, but isn't this kind of the domino theory? when one little country falls, its neighbor will surely follow, and before you know it, we're all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings. surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value. our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that's pretty secure, with a key that can be escrowed neatly, and they did. the government plans to sell this thing, for the reasons they state. yes, those evil guys in the fbi can probably, with some effort, abuse the system. i got news for you, if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you, they're gonna, and you're gonna hate it. fact is, the fbi doesn't want to listen to your phone calls, and if they do, and if you're using triple-des, they'll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head. this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they're saying they're doing. as is typical with governments, it's mismanaged, and full of holes and compromises. as is typical with our government, it's not too bad, could be worse. my interpretation. -tim may, whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn't this just a little melodramatic? 
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 i've seen pgp 2.2 mentioned for the mac platform. i use 2.0 on ms/dos. is there a 2.2 for ms/dos? if so, a site or two that has it available (i'd need executables, although source would be nice to review). what was "fixed" or changed from 2.0 > 2.2? thanks, mwe mearle@netcom.com finger for pgp2.0 public key 
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 i'd *desparately* prefer it if we didn't rehash the same arguments that went on ad infinitum last time. that's especially true for sci.crypt. for that matter, i've created alt.privacy.clipper, since the traffic is appearing in *many* different groups right now. i'm going to focus here on some technical aspects of the plan, hence my followup to sci.crypt. frankly, if you're not an absolutist, your feelings may turn on some of these issues. for example -- with an 80-bit key, simply splitting it into two 40-bit pieces is much less acceptable than other schemes, because it means that if just one repository is, shall we say, overly pliable, a would-be eavesdropper would need to recover just 40 more bits of key. i need not point out in this newsgroup that that's pretty easy to do by exhaustive search. a slightly more complex scheme -- xor-ing the key with a random number, and then with its complement -- would produce two 80-bit subkeys, neither of which is useful alone. that variant is much more resistant to attack. clearly, one can get even more sophisticated, to protect the subkeys even more. other thoughts... some people have noted the size and complexity of the databases necessary. but the id strings the phones emit could be their back door key, double-encrypted with the escrow repositories' public keys. for that matter, they could do that only with session keys, and have no back door at all. in that case, the fbi would have to bring every intercept to the repositories to be decrypted. this would answer many of the objections along the lines of ``how do you make sure they stop''. we can even combine that with a variant of the digital telephony back door -- have the switch do the tap, but with a digitally-signed record of the time, phone number, etc, of the call. that provides proof to the escrow agents that the tap was done in compliance with the terms of the warrant. i can suggest other variations, too. suppose each clipper chip had 100 public key pairs. each would be used ~10 times, after which you'd need more keying material. (not a bad idea in any event.) this could be used to enforce time limits, or rather, usage limits, on each warrant; the keys the repository agents would deliver wouldn't last for very i suspect that the cryptographic algorithm itself is secure. apart from the obvious -- why push a weak algorithm when you've already got the back door? -- i think that the government is still genuinely concerned about foreign espionage, especially aimed at commercial targets. this scheme lets the spooks have their cake and eat it, too. (i've heard rumors, over the years, that some factions within nsa were unhappy with des because it was too good. not that they couldn't crack it, but it was much too expensive to do so as easily as they'd want.) they're keeping the details secret so that others don't build their own implementations without the back door. the cryptographic protocol, though, is another matter. i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret, and -- as i hope i've shown above -- there are a lot of ways to do things that aren't (quite) as bad. 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15285" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 this announcement is somewhat disconcerting; it doesn't do anything evil in and of itself, but bodes badly for the future of open algorithms and standards in information security. i won't start panicking until/unless des or rsa or stuff like that is prohibited, but i'm a little anxious. (no doubt it won't be long before someone posts explaining how this just a small part of some far-ranging and long-lived nsa-pkp-irs-fbi-cia-handguncontrolinc-clinton conspiracy to subvert freedom, democracy, and mathematics.) my feeling is that the administration probably isn't that worried about things like des and rsa and pgp and ripem, since they'll never be used by a group much wider than us computer geeks. the fact that this just came out now suggests one of two things: 1. the nsa has been working on this for a long time, and it only just now happened to be ``ready'' to release to the world at this time. 2. the nsa has been working on this for a long time, but wasn't able to get the bush administration to go along with this plan. (i find it unlikely that this would have been because of a sympathy for the unescrowed use of cryptography; more likely the administration felt that even escrowed, secret-algorithm and, for all we know, trivially breakable cryptography should not be made widely available.) thus said clipper@csrc.ncsl.nist.gov (clipper chip announcement): this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information, protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically. at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals. the majority of the discussion involving this "clipper chip" seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations. does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals? the language sort of suggests this, but it's hard to say. the main thing i just don't get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques. anybody know? i'm guessing symmetric, but they don't get very clear about it. if it is symmetric, how is it useful for anything other than link-level encryption with an identical chip at each end? how can you negotiate a per-session key using symmetric cryptography without using a trusted third party who knows your key? (or does it even use a per-session key?) if it's asymmetric, what about pkp's patents, which they claim cover all methods of doing asymmetric cryptography? are they getting royalties, or is hiding infringement the real reason for keeping the algorithm secret? :-) marc vanheyningen mvanheyn@cs.indiana.edu mime & ripem accepted kirk: i won't hurt you. alien: you hit me! kirk: well, i won't hit you again. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15286">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15286" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i change login passwords every couple of months. i sure would suck if i had to get a new sparc station everytime i wanted to do this. it seems that this is what they expect you to do if you want to routinely change your password on your phone. i'm sure the government contractor doesn't mind, but a system where you can cheaply change keys (des) has inherent security advantages, regardless of the algorithms involved. -tim cuffel finger for pgp 2.1 the cia has admitted that the assassination of saddam hussien was one of their goals. they failed, of course. seems as though that motorcade through downtown dallas trick only works once. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15288">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15288" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) i agree. this is the danger i see, not the system itself. that is to say, this is a political issue, not a technical one. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15293">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15293" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i tried to mail peter boucher, who posted the question, but my e-mail bounced, so, apologies to thsoe who are not interested. trinomials are all of the form x**a + x**b + 1, where a have you read: bremner,a., on trinomials of type x$+n$-+ax$+m$-+1. math. scand. 49(1981) pp. 145-155. zbl. 458.12012. mr 83k:12002. ljunggren,w., on the irreducibility of certain trinomials and quadrinomials. math. scand. 8(1960) pp. 65-70. tverberg,h., on the irreducibility of the trinomials x$+n$-$mpm$$x$+m$-$mpm$$1. math. scand. 8(1960) pp. 121-126. tverberg,h., on cubic factors of certain trinomials. math. scand. 53(1983) pp. 178-184. zbl. 513.12003. james davenport jhd@maths.bath.ac.uk 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15297">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15297" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 oh great. wonderful news. nobody can listen in--except the feds. hey, it's better than the status quo. i am far less worried about "the feds" tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls. really? why are so you worried about high school kids "getting their kicks" with scanners, as compared to what the feds can do, and have done, to their "better than the status quo" isn't good enough, i'd say. the same technology could be implemented without a back door open to the state. we all know about power and corruption. but we all know that abuse is something that only happens to the other guy. amanda walker intercon systems corporation john hesse | a man, jhesse@netcom.com | a plan, moss beach, calif | a canal, bob. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15298">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15298" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 about coca-cola and pepsi cola and what they can teach us. surely, if we must use pop patent law examples to discuss rc2 and rc4, it would make more sense to consider the case of rc cola? jim reeds 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15300">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15300" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 "your honour, the suspect suddenly started using another level of cryptography and we can't tap his phone calls any more. he must have something to hide. please sign the warrant to search his house..." what they would need to do, though, is make sure that nobody has access to decent crypto in the first place. they probably can't tell clippered voice from clippered triple-desed voice until they get their copy of your key. any criminal who's going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper. the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption. i probably shouldn't say this, but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext. an old-fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre-encryption, which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input. a countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice. you can tell if the nsa built this feature in: blow on the mike, and observe whether a band of thugs comes through your ceiling. pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15301">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15301" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the main thing i just don't get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques. anybody know? i don't know, but i'm as willing to speculate as anyone. several people have suggested that the chips use public-key cryptography. another possibility is to use diffie-hellman key exchange, or some other algorithm which has a similar effect. dh allows both ends to agree on a session key which they use with symmetric cryptography (something like des) for the encryption. how could the "back door" keys work in this system? i can see a few possibilities. one is that the dh-like algorithm has the property that the session key can be deduced by an eavesdropper who knows the back door keys for one (or possibly both) communicants. perhaps the random numbers used in the dh are seeded by the back door key, or some such. another possibility, as was suggested here earlier, is that the chips simply broadcast the session key, encrypted with the chip's own internal secret key. in this system the back door keys are secret keys usable for decrypting this session key broadcast. actually the chip's secret key doesn't need to be a public key in this usage, but can be identical to the secret back-door key. (this proposal seems most straightforward to me.) still another possibility is that the encryption algorithm used for the message itself has a "dual key" property, that possession of either of two keys can be used to decrypt it. one key would be the session key from the dh exchange, and the other would be the back door key for the chip. it's worth noting that one of the proposals dorothy denning raised during her amazingly prescient on-line discussion last november and december was a variation on diffie-hellman in which a third party would participate in deriving the session keys. this doesn't quite fit into what we know of how clipper works but it hints that those who had early knowledge of clipper (or whose thinking was somehow synchronized with clipper designers) may have had diffie-hellman on their minds. hal finney 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15302">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15302" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 it looks like dorothy denning's wrong-headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared. i'd lay long odds that it was the other way around. clinton didn't just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices; the nsa has to have been working on it for years. while it's possible that denning (and other prominent people) just happened to start arguing for such a system, it seems more likely that there was a suggestion involved. if this guess is wrong, i apologize. pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15304">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15304" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 in light of my recent paranoia concerning government proposals, i'd love to see a unix-based encryption scheme that: 1) kept some files encrypted on the host machine (say, all the files in your home directory) 2) used a key system that could not be compromised by eavesdropping over a modem line. it seems that this would require modifications to a shell program and a way of telling whether a file was encrypted or not, among other things. i'd love to know about potential security holes in such a system. does such a system exist? if it were made easy-to-use and readily available, i think it would be a good thing(tm). i realize that this would probably just involve putting a nice front-end on a readily available and very secure encryption scheme, but it should be done. thanks for the ear, 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15307">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15307" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 :judge: "i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key : itself" :you: "the keyphrase is: "i confess to deliberately evading copyright; : the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of : copyrighted peanuts strips."" :judge and cp: "oh." : how will they get you now? i'm not saying that they won't, or :can't (or even that they shouldn't :-), but what legal mechanism will :they use? should we be crossposting this to misc.legal? hm, could another court try you via a bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial? ie your judge is a state judge, and then a federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail. no. the lapd officers were tried first by the state of california on charges of police brutality, and secondly by the federal government on depriving rk of his civil rights - a different crime. the scenario i outline is more similar to the oliver north trial. ollie confessed to treason (aiding an enemy of the us) during senate hearings, under immunity. the team which was later to prosecute him on criminal charges had to sequester itself from all reports of on's immunized testimony. on's lawyer brought up the probability that at least someone on the team had heard about the senate testimony, and it was a strong factor against the prosecution, which is one of the reasons this on is still walking around free today. peter trei ptrei@mitre.org 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15308">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15308" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 % telnet csrc.ncsl.nist.gov 25 trying... connected to csrc.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 first.org sendmail 4.1/nist ready at sat, 17 apr 93 20:42:56 edt expn clipper 250-<csspab@mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov> 250-<denning@cs.georgetown.edu> 250-<hoffman@seas.gwu.edu> 250-<mkapor@eff.org> 250-<rotenberg@cpsr.org> 250-<rivest@mit.edu> 250-<mhellman@stanford.edu> 250-<alanrp@aol.com> 250-<dparker@sri.com> 250-<jim@rsa.com> 250-<branstad@tis.com> 250 <mgrsplus@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov> 221 first.org closing connection connection closed. note also: % telnet csmes.ncsl.nist.gov 25 trying 129.6.54.2... connected to csmes.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 csmes.ncsl.nist.gov sendmail 4.1/nist(rbj/dougm) ready at sat, 17 apr 93 23:08:58 edt expn mgrsplus 250-<mcnulty@ecf.ncsl.nist.gov> 250-irene gilbert <igilbert> 250-dennis branstad <branstad> 250-robert rosenthal <rmr> 250-gene troy <troy> 250-<smid@st1.ncsl.nist.gov> 250-dennis steinauer <dds> 250 <katzke@st1.ncsl.nist.gov> telnet mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov 25 trying 129.6.48.199... connected to mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov sendmail 4.1/rbj/jck-3 ready at sat, 17 apr 93 23:06:50 edt expn csspab 250-<burrows@ecf> 250-<mcnulty@ecf> 250-bill colvin <colvin> 250-<gangemi@dockmaster.ncsc.mil> 250-john kuyers <kuyers> 250-<slambert@cgin.cto.citicorp.com> 250-<lipner@mitre.org> 250-<gallagher@dockmaster.ncsc.mil> 250-<cindy_rand@postmaster.dot.gov> 250-<walker@tis.com> 250-<willis@rand.org> 250-eddie zeitler <zeitler> 250-cris castro <castro> 250 <whitehurst@vnet.ibm.com> % telnet st1.ncsl.nist.gov 25 trying 129.6.54.91... connected to st1.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 st1.ncsl.nist.gov sendmail 4.1/nbs-rbj.11 ready at sat, 17 apr 93 23:13:43 edt expn smid 250 miles smid <smid> expn katzke 250 stuart katzke <katzke> 221 st1.ncsl.nist.gov closing connection connection closed by foreign host. % telnet ecf.ncsl.nist.gov 25 trying 129.6.48.2... connected to ecf.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 ecf.ncsl.nist.gov tgv/multinet smtp service ready. expn burrows 250 burrows, james <burrows> expn mcnulty 250 mcnulty, lynn <mcnulty> 221 ecf.ncsl.nist.gov tgv/multinet smtp service complete. % whois -h rs.internic.net first.org national institute of standards and technology (first-dom) 225/a216 gaithersburg, md 20899 domain name: first.org administrative contact: wack, john p. (jpw18) wack@enh.nist.gov (301) 975-3411 (fts) 879-3411 technical contact, zone contact: hunt, craig w. (cwh3) hunt@enh.nist.gov (301) 975-3827 (fts) 879-3827 record last updated on 17-dec-91. domain servers in listed order: dove.nist.gov 129.6.16.2 ames.arc.nasa.gov 128.102.18.3 the internic registration services host only contains internet information (networks, asn's, domains, and poc's). please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for milnet information. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15309">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15309" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the greatest danger of the escrow database, if it were kept on disk, would be the chance that a complete copy could somehow leak out. you of course then it's hard to backup. however, i think the consequences of no backup -- the data is not there when a warrant comes -- are worse than the consequences of a secret backup. if the data isn't there when the warrant comes, you effectively have secure crypto. if secret backups are kept...then you effectively have no crypto. thus, this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto. if the data isn't there when the warrant comes, then the government will just have to use normal law enforcement techniques to catch crooks. is this so bad? btw, bugging isn't yet a normal law enforcement technique. with the privacy clipper, it will become a normal technique. /jim information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15311">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15311" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i probably shouldn't say this, but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext. an old-fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre-encryption, which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input. a countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice. this way to detect pre-encryption may be defeated ; one can do transformation of the spectrum of encrypted signal just by adding some pre-arranged (in the beginning of communication) function. i think so. say, you can do fft of your encrypted signal. just thinking ... for pgp2.1 public key finger mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15312">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15312" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i wish i could agree with you. ask yourself this. why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised? (key escrows in this instance) why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that had not been properly evaluated? (i.e. algorythm not publically released) the answer seems obvious to me, they wouldn't. there is other hardware out there not compromised. des as an example (triple des as a better one.) what follows is my opinion. it is not asserted to be "the truth" so no flames, please. it comes out of a background of 20 years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune 50 companies. i'd be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business, if they told me it was more secure than des, and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese, french, and other competitive companies and governments to break. i'd be happy to do so even with escrowed keys, provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies (the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me, as would something set up by one of the big 8 accounting firms). i'd trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors--i'd be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure. i'd trust something from the nsa long before i'd trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese. this may seem surprising to some here, but i suggest most corporations would feel the same way. most/many/some (pick one) corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and "we support our government", as one very famous ceo put it to me one day. just some perspective from another point of view. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15315">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15315" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 it looks like dorothy denning's wrong-headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared. i'd lay long odds that it was the other way around. clinton didn't just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices; the nsa has to have been working on it for years. i first heard rumors of a similar government proposal (in risks digest???) in 1987 or 1988. peter trei ptrei@mitre.org 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15317">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15317" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : the message from the nist about the clipper chip comes from the : following address: : clipper@csrc.ncsl.nist.gov (clipper chip announcement) : just who is that, i asked myself, or rather, i asked the computer. : % telnet csrc.ncsl.nist.gov 25 ...list of name elided for brevity...... : well, isn't that interesting. dorothy denning, mitch kapor, marc : rotenberg, ron rivest, jim bidzos, and others. the government, rsa, : tis, cpsr, and the eff are all represented. i don't suppose anybody : within any of these organizations would care to comment? or is this : just the white house's idea of a cruel joke on these peoples' inboxes? i know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper! and another has already fired off a letter of protest to nist. my point? i suspect this list, interesting as it is for various reasons, does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together. some of them, yes. others, no. this may be nothing more than a mailing list of people who get crypto-related announcements from nsa, er, i mean "nist." -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15320">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15320" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 -----begin pgp signed message----- 2) the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this. criminals will quickly figure this out and go to depends.. its possible that the phone sends its serial number in the clear at some specified interval... so all a listener needs to do is get that sn, and then get the key for it... so swapping phones isn't a problem (for the gov't, that is). they still know that this line belongs to you, so they just watch the line and see the sn, and then they get the key for that sn... in either case, i think we need to look at this a bit deeper."'jbl)mw:wxld2 well, i think this is understood. the major problem is that a lot of people just don't trust this key escrow stuff, and the fact that the algorithms are classified... so, yes, a lot of this needs to be looked at closer! - -derek pgp 2 key available upon request on the key-server: pgp-public-keys@toxicwaste.mit.edu -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqbuagubk9ebxdh0k1zbsgrxaqhzcalcalvwtnvi7ayswf565id1mn++nsybtwqi jqlgpkx/4tx6qjgc69buqrzatmqutkovnvx/mqt5ezfm7uundrwd4cowbb7cc4gy gt7jtlrqu0af9vsf4sgnqqg= =fgrj -----end pgp signature----- derek atkins, mit '93, electrical engineering and computer science secretary, mit student information processing board (sipb) mit media laboratory, speech research group warlord@mit.edu pp-asel n1nwh 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15325">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15325" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : p.s. i can't work out why the us government doesn't want to sell : them overseas. after all, they are rather easy for us interests to decode, : so make a perfect tool for industrial/military espionage...lulling : anyone stupid enough to buy it into a false sense of security. you will : notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non-americans. don't forget, you are in the country that wouldn't let the russians buy apple ii's because of security concerns. ben (-: bena@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au :-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15330">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15330" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 yes, those evil guys in the fbi can probably, with some effort, abuse the system. i got news for you, if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you, they're gonna, ... and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy, he wouldn't have had to send people into the watergate. but that's not really the issue. the real issue is whether this will be used to justify a ban against individuals' use of private (i.e., anything else) encryption methods. unrelated question...isn't the term "clipper," as neat as it is, already taken by intergraph? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15331">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15331" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : however, unless i : missed something, the only source they suggested (aside from a hardware rng) : that seems available, and unguessable by an intruder, when a unix is : fresh-booted, is i/o buffers related to network traffic. i believe my : solution basically uses that strategy, without requiring me to reach into : the kernel. a few more sources are statistics on your filesystems (easily and quickly obtained) and the output from the "rusage" system you can also exec a finger to one or more favorite heavily-used systems, though this can take several seconds. cf. the source code to ripem on ripem.msu.edu. mark r. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15332">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15332" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 here's a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one: make it voluntary. that is--you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key. otherwise you are on your own. as long as "you are on your own" means that you can use your own encryption, i'm sold. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15333">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15333" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am currently writing a paper on computer protocols security. i would appreciate your help. i currently have no insight into these topics except that they relate to security in multilevel security network. please semd me any references, books, faqs or contact persons names and internet addresses. the topics i am interested in: 1. the "firewall gateway model" as implemented in internet gateways. 2. kerberos authentication service please send me a private e-mail at eldar@sfu.ca and/or post it on the board. thanks a lot, 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15334">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15334" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) not to pick on mr. may in particular, of course, but isn't this kind of the domino theory? when one little country falls, its neighbor will surely follow, and before you know it, we're all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings. surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value. our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that's pretty secure, with a key that can be escrowed neatly, and they did. the government plans to sell this thing, for the reasons they state. yes, those evil guys in the fbi can probably, with some effort, abuse the system. i got news for you, if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you, they're gonna, and you're gonna hate it. fact is, the fbi doesn't want to listen to your phone calls, and if they do, and if you're using triple-des, they'll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head. with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they're saying they're doing. as is typical with governments, it's mismanaged, and full of holes and compromises. as is typical with our government, it's not too bad, could be worse. my interpretation. -tim may, whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn't this just a little melodramatic? if the new regime comes to fruition, make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights. doug holland 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15335">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15335" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you, and the escrow :houses release your code to the cops, your code is now no longer secure. a very good point! :it's in the hands of cops, and while i am sure most of the time they are :good, their security will not be as good as the escrow houses. why should we expect the cops to be honest! they're underpaid for the risks they face every day. the media dumps on the all the time and blames them for all sorts of discrimination, brutality.... how can we expect them to be more than human? besides there are lots of cases of police abuses ranging from protection scams to outright robbery (when i worked in d.c. there was a breakin at a local radio shack and the alarm company heard the cops responding to the call over the audio pickup in the store:-). :what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you, :at the end of the wiretap, they should be obligated to inform you that :a tap was performed, and replace (for free) the clipper chip in your :cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the :escrow houses. then you would know that big brother had been listening. does he really want to let you know? :do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are :laid? in many ways, it would be a positive step if they had to. :judges set time limits on warrants, i assume. at the end of the time :limit they should have to renew or replace your chip. :that's if we go with this scheme, which i am not sure i agree with. i'm completely against anything that makes it easier for the government to encroach on the rights of individuals. the founders of this country spent a lot of effort limiting the power of the government and specifying exactly what the governments rights were (and this didn't include a gov't spy in every bedroom). imho, there are entirely too many things going on today designed to preserve the government organism at the expense of individuals. look around and reread 1984 and many early heinlein books. aren't there many parallels between the thought police (can you spell waco texas?), and heinlein's ``crazy years''? internet: bill@celestial.com bill campbell; celestial software uucp: ...!thebes!camco!bill 6641 east mercer way uunet!camco!bill mercer island, wa 98040; (206) 947-5591 speed costs money -- how fast do you want to go? 
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 though some may argue about the nose of the camel, it's worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony. if it is only used for that purpose, and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption, then it is an improvement over the current mass-produced standard civilian technology which, with a few exceptions, is limited to easy-to-break inverters. note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap. before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e-mail and files, let's focus on this. one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony, or if the government intends to expand it. though i share many of the concerns expressed by some, i find the proposal less threatening than many others, since right now most americans have no secure telephony, and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a "goat" can eavesdrop. this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones. reading between the lines, i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys. this would meet the needs of u.s. businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries, including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies. it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs. most legitimate u.s. corporations trust the nsa, and would be delighted to have a high-security system certified by them, even at the price of depositing keys in escrow. i see no difficulty in creating a reliable escrow. corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week, and that system has worked pretty well. from my point of view this is a fair starting point. there are concerns that need to be addressed, including the reliability of the escrows. but in return we get access to high-security crypto. many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed. there is at least a good possibility (which should be checked) that the proposed system is not so breakable. it doesn't have to be, nor does it have to have trapdoors, if the government can get the keys pursuant to a legitimate court order. thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries, while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order. let me ask you this. would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys? i wouldn't. doug holland 
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 i received the following two notes from martin hellman with details on how clipper will work. they are posted with his permission. the implications of some details are fascinating. to: (a long list of recipients) most of you have seen the announcement in friday's ny times, etc. about nist (national institute of standards & technology) announcing the "clipper chip" crypto device. several messges on the net have asked for more technical details, and some have been laboring under understandable misunderstandings given the lack of details in the news articles. so here to help out is your friendly nsa link: me. i was somewhat surprised friday to get a call from the agency which supplied many of the missing details. i was told the info was public, so here it is (the cc of this to dennis branstad at nist is mostly as a double check on my facts since i assume he is aware of all this; please let me know if i have anything wrong): the clipper chip will have a secret crypto algorithm embedded in silicon. each chip will have two secret, 80-bit keys. one will be the same for all chips (ie a system-wide key) and the other will be unit specific. i don't know what nist and nsa will call them, but i will call them the system key sk and unit key uk in this message. the ic will be designed to be extremely difficult to reverse so that the system key can be kept secret. (aside: it is clear that they also want to keep the algorithm secret and, in my opinion, it may be as much for that as this stated purpose.) the unit key will be generated as the xor of two 80-bit random numbers k1 and k2 (uk=k1+k2) which will be kept by the two escrow authorities. who these escrow authorities will be is still to be decided by the attorney general, but it was stressed to me that they will not be nsa or law enforcement agencies, that they must be parties acceptable to the users of the system as unbiased. when a law enforcement agency gets a court order, they will present it to these two escrow authorities and receive k1 and k2, thereby allowing access to the unit key uk. in addition to the system key, each user will get to choose his or her own key and change it as often as desired. call this key plain old k. when a message is to be sent it will first be encrypted under k, then k will be encrypted under the unit key uk, and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk e{ e[m; k], e[k; uk], serial number; sk} when a court order obtains k1 and k2, and thence k, the law enforcement agency will use sk to decrypt all information flowing on the suspected link [aside: it is my guess that they may do this constantly on all links, with or without a court order, since it is almost impossible to tell which links over which a message will flow.] this gives the agency access to e[m; k], e[k; uk], serial number in the above message. they then check the serial number of the unit and see if it is on the "watch list" for which they have a court order. if so, they will decrypt e[k; uk] to obtain k, and then decrypt e[m; k] to obtain m. i am still in the process of assessing this scheme, so please do not take the above as any kind of endorsement of the proposed scheme. all i am trying to do is help all of us assess the scheme more knowledgably. but i will say that the need for just one court order worries me. i would feel more comfortable (though not necessarily comfortable!) if two separate court orders were needed, one per escrow authority. while no explanation is needed, the following story adds some color: in researching some ideas that silvio micali and i have been kicking around, i spoke with gerald gunther, the constitutional law expert here at stanford and he related the following story: when edward levi became pres. ford's attorney general (right after watergate), he was visited by an fbi agent asking for "the wiretap authorizations." when levy asked for the details so he could review the cases as required by law, the agent told him that his predecessors just turned over 40-50 blank, signed forms every time. levi did not comply and changed the system, but the lesson is clear: no single person or authority should have the power to authorize wiretaps (or worse yet, divulging of personal keys). sometimes he or she will be an edward levi and sometimes a john mitchell. martin hellman to: smb@research.att.com it is fine to post my previous message to sci.crypt if you also post this message with it in which: 1. i ask recipients to be sparse in their requesting further info from me or asking for comments on specific questions. by this posting i apologize for any messages i am unable to respond to. (i already spend too much time answering too much e-mail and am particularly overloaded this week with other responsibilities.) 2. i note a probably correction sent to me by dorothy denning. she met with the person from nsa that i talked with by phone, so her understanding is likely to better than mine on this point: where i said the transmitted info is e{ e[m; k], e[k; uk], serial number; sk} she says the message is not double encrypted. the system key (or family key as she was told it is called) only encrypts the serial number or the serial number and the encrypted unit key. this is not a major difference, but i thought it should be mentioned and thank her for bringing it to my attention. it makes more sense since it cuts down on encryption computation overhead. 
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 but is it any worse than the current unsecure system? it becomes much worse, of course, if the government then uses this "clinton clipper" to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption. (this is the main concern of most of us, i think. the camel's nose in the tent, etc.) not to pick on mr. may in particular, of course, but isn't this kind of the domino theory? as john gilmore has pointed out repeatedly, if you produce the infrastructure that would permit a police state to function, all that is required to suddenly find yourself living in one is a change of attitude on the part of the government. our constitution was built by men who had to risk their lives to ensure freedom in our country. they designed the system to make it difficult for tyranny to arise. for instance, one of the reasons the fourth amendment was put there was to make it harder for the government to try to make smuggling a crime. think i jest? john hancock made all his money smuggling rum, which is, after all, a drug. think about it. the government has everyones keys in escrow, and the fbi gets their pet "wiretap without leaving the office" scheme. there is a coup, which happens every day all around the world. within hours, everyone in the country who might oppose the tyrants is being monitored more closely than ever before possible. without the tools being in place, a tyranny cannot stand. with tools like this in place, a tyrannical dictatorship could actually be successfully imposed. why give the government tools with which to enslave you? maybe you can trust bill clinton, but are you willing to tell me that you can trust every government that will ever arise in the u.s. hereafter? i am not willing to make that leap of faith. -tim may, whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn't this just a little melodramatic? i'm a political dissident. as such, i am acutely aware of what happens to political dissidents in most of the world. in most of the world, i could be killed for my beliefs. call amnesty international some time to find out what happens to dissidents in most of the world. all that seperates the u.s. from most of those places is a thin piece of parchment in the national archives thats being constantly more and more eroded by such farces as the war on drugs. coups have happened in countries that have had stable democracies for over a hundred years. governments throughout history have fallen. no government has lasted for more than a few hundred years. often, they are replaced by dictatorships. do you really believe so intensely that it could never ever ever happen here that you are willing to bet your own life and the lives of your children and other loved ones on it? if we construct the tools with which tyranny could be enforced, we make it orders of magnitude more likely that it could happen, because if it happened with the tools already in place it could actually naive fools such as our leadership believe they can protect us where hundreds that have gone before have failed. thriving democracies led by men far more skillfull than bill clinton have fallen to dictatorship. rome had a thriving republic run by exquisitely skilled men before they became a tyranny. i, for one, am unwilling to trust that it could never happen here. only hubris would allow us to believe we are immune to what has happened elsewhere. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15341">
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 i know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper! and another has already fired off a letter of protest to nist. my point? i suspect this list, interesting as it is for various reasons, does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together. some of them, yes. others, no. i received mail from mitch kapor saying that he did not ask to be on the list, and does not know why he was added. i'm sure the same applies to others on the list. so, i guess my initial theory was right, that the clipper list was just someone's idea of a bad joke. i guess i should be happy it wasn't a conspiracy. marc horowitz n1nzu <marc@mit.edu> 617-253-7788 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15342">
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 note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. i think this to be inaccurate. one can buy tempest equipment commercially. even macs. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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 short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says: there is a global key g, plus one key u_c for each chip c. the user can choose a new session key k_p for each phone call p he makes. chip c knows three keys: g, its own u_c, and the user's k_p. the government as a whole knows g and every u_c. apparently a message m is encrypted as e_g(e_{u_c}(k_p),c) , e_{k_p}(m). that's it. the system as described here can't possibly work. what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip? to get m the receiving chip needs k_p; to get k_p the receiving chip needs u_c. the only information it can work with is c. if u_c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the ``key escrow'' is bullshit. otherwise how is a message decrypted? ---dan 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15344">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15344" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest? if the new regime comes to fruition, make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights. i'll second that. "i stood up on my van. i yelled, `excuse me, sir. ain't nothing wrong with this country that a few plastic explosives won't cure!'" - steve taylor, i blew up the clinic real good `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,` 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15345">
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 yes, those evil guys in the fbi can probably, with some effort, abuse the system. i got news for you, if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you, they're gonna, ... and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy, he wouldn't have had to send people into the watergate. this appears to be generic calling upon the name of the anti-christ. just for the hell of it, let's destroy this remark. let us imagine that the executive branch actually could extract keys from the escrow houses without anyone knowing, or telling. now what? dick has 80 bits of data. what the hell's he gonna do with it? 1) trot around to the telco and say 'we'd like an unauthorised decrypting tap'. uh huh. 2) break in to watergate and install his own tap (so his people still do have to break in, neat, huh?) record some noise, then get the executive branch phone decryption box (huh? they've got one? goodness, wait 'til the washington post gets hold of this) and decrypt the noise. 3) more likely, stare at the key, and say 'oh, hell it's not worth all this bloody hassle' truth is, even granted *lots* of covert power on the part of the executive branch, this system is *more* difficult to tap with than pots gear. the fact that it is easier to tap than some hypothetical system neither you nor i am going to place on our phones is neither here nor there. the only rational concerns i am seeing raised are: a) is the key really just chopped in half, and not some xor arrangement? that is, has some egregious technical error been built in to the plan? b) is this is the first step toward strict regulation of strong but that's not really the issue. the real issue is whether this will be used to justify a ban against individuals' use of private (i.e., anything else) encryption methods. this is b), of course. i suspect not. if the government actually wanted to make such regs, they'd just do it. a few hundred people on usenet yelling about it wouldn't even slow the machine down. besides, who is this mysterious 'they' who's going to take away all our rights the instant we let our guard down? congress? that gang of buffoons can't even balance their checkbooks. the fbi? but.. they don't make the laws. the nsa? ditto. the white house? bill clinton is probably still looking for the bathroom. it's a big place, after all. 
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 being a browser of this group for some time, and being very concerned about the clipper chip proposal, i am hoping someone with more knowledge can help out. who would be the most influential people to write to, protesting the obvious next step hinted at by this proposal ? (heads of what committees, etc.) what are the major flaws in the plan ? (from a cryptological standpoint) shaun p. hughes "facts are stupid things." sphughes@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu ronald reagan republican national finger for pgp 2.2 public key convention 1988 
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 |>in article <1qpg8finn982@dns1.nmsu.edu> amolitor@nmsu.edu |>>in article <tcmayc5m2xv.jex@netcom.com> |>>>-tim may, whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime |>>isn't this just a little melodramatic? |>not at all. two weeks ago i registered a concern about some programming |>that was being conducted by a student organisation here at the |>university of texas at san antonio. as a result, i was interrogated |>by the capus police, who also attempted to create a positive-identification |>file (photo, fingerprints, etc.). i refused to permit this, and filed a |>complaint with the university administration. the vice-president for |>business affairs (the 'boss' of the campus police) stated that he had no |>interest in the legal/constitutional implications of those actions. |> a remark i heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly |>frightening significance. the comment was made that "in other parts |>of the world the democrats [note the big "d"] would be known as |>socialists" we might get further if we begin by accepting that the government really couldn't be bothered less about the political opinions of the right wing pro establishment types. just about the only circumstances in which i could think that they would be interested in their political views would be to recruit them as spooks. they can be guaranteed to give the government line when it counts. in us history it has been the socialists such as myself who have been persecuted. now before people start asserting that there is no mechanism by which the administration can get their new chip adopted without legal force lets try thinking. in the first place the clipper chip must have existed for several years as a defense project. therefore this is not a party matter at all. george bush was in any case hardly adverse to tapping calls, he was chief spook secondly the govt can quite easily apply pressure. they simply "ask" their chums who they give huge defense contracts to (motorola etc) to be "nice" boys. after all bill is giving them a nice little trade monopoly since the chips won't be avaliable to foreign firms. thirdly the people who consider the democrats to be socialist are not the same as the ones who consider socialists to be communist. people might know this if the us education system did not suffer from the mcarthyite and dewy version of political correctness - the sort with tribunals and show trials. ever seen ed meese pissed? i have, it was when he said that socialism and communism were the same thing and brought the house down with laughter. it took several minutes before we realised that he was serious. phill hallam-baker phill hallam-baker 
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 i was wanting to ask the same question dan bernstein asked--how does the clipper chip exchange keys? if the public key is only 80 or 160 bits long, does anyone know of any public-key schemes that are secure with that key size? (diffie-hellman or maybe el gamal, with p set to a constant value?) presumably, the real scheme is something like: 1. exchange/verify public keys. 2. send encrypted (randomly-generated) session key. 3. encrypt / decrypt voice trafic with some sort of fast stream cipher. can anyone elaborate on this, or show me what i'm missing here? --john kelsey, c445585@mizzou1.missouri.edu 
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 with all the talk about this clipper chip, i have developed one question... how does it work??? if you use this, then how does it get decrypted on the other end? does the other party (receiving the phone call/mail/etc) have to know some code to undo it? do i use a different method for calling one party than i would for another?. if the other party can decrypt it, doesn't that mean that someone else could also? i assume that if everyone has a different key, the only use would be storing secure data for later retrieval by the same key. this seems like a fundamental question to me, but i have very little experience with cryptosystems, other than des. if someone could give me an explanation as to how it would be used (remember that i have had little experience with this sort of thing) it would be very much appreciated. justin york jyork@iastate.edu 
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 the cryptographic protocol, though, is another matter. i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret, and -- as i hope i've shown above -- there are a lot of ways to do things that aren't (quite) as bad. it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret. if it were published, one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips. but the cloner wouldn't provide the keys to the escrow houses. hmmn. or is there a technical hack that i've missed? e.g. how about if the chips were made unprogrammed but serialized, and then shipped to the two escrow houses who programmed in their halves of the keys, but in a way that requires that secret keys known only to the escrow houses be installed as well, without which clone versions wouldn't interoperate? this is getting awfully complicated, but that's crypto for you. john r. levine, iecc, pob 349, cambridge ma 02238, +1 617 492 3869 johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {ima|spdcc|world}!iecc!johnl "time is money! steal some today!" 
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 thus said djb@silverton.berkeley.edu (d. j. bernstein): short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says: there is a global key g, plus one key u_c for each chip c. the user can choose a new session key k_p for each phone call p he makes. chip c knows three keys: g, its own u_c, and the user's k_p. the government as a whole knows g and every u_c. apparently a message m is encrypted as e_g(e_{u_c}(k_p),c) , e_{k_p}(m). that's it. the system as described here can't possibly work. what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip? to get m the receiving chip needs k_p; to get k_p the receiving chip needs u_c. the only information it can work with is c. if u_c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the ``key escrow'' is bullshit. otherwise how is a message decrypted? given the description of the algorithm given, the only plausible explantion i can find is that k_p must be agreed to out of bandwidth in advance by the two parties; i.e. it's a standard shared symmetric marc vanheyningen mvanheyn@cs.indiana.edu mime & ripem accepted security through diversion: n. theory which states that the public availability of good computer games is vital to maintaining system safety. contrast security through obscurity. 
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 [... a bunch of well-meaning (maybe) cynnical text about screw-thread sizes, the rights of people to have their own standards, and the non-right of the gov. to regulate screw-threads...] well, as funny as your little comment may seem, it has very little to do with your personal privacy as a citizen, and about the governemnt being able to look at everything you have ever typed into a computer at one point or another. this "clipper chip" stuff is the seeds for nightmares to make the nightmare on elmstreet cheese-on-celluloid movies look like episodes of mr. roger's neighborhood. if the gov establishes a cryptography standard that has to be used by everyone, and everyone's personal key is divided into two segments and stored at two separate, albeit easy to find places, and that key is only 80 bits to begin with, we are screwed (pardon the allusion to the affore-mentioned article)! the gov, i believe, as do many others probably already have the cracking chips for this clipper chip made. hell, they probably based the encoder on the chip that cracks it, that way it's easier to break the code, but since it is a classified algorythm, no one knows that they can crack it so easily. i, for one, and quite scared of this kind of thing, and plan to support organizations (and even disorganizations) who are fighting against this clipper chip in any way that i can. i do not want the government to be able to have access, even with a search warrant, to my keys... and i don't want those keys to be only 80 bits long to begin with! -nate sammons o---------------------------+======================================o | "i hate quotations. | this message brought you by | | tell me what you know." | nate sammons, and the number 42. | | --ralph waldo emerson | ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu | o---------------------------+======================================o 
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 with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. 1. i don't think they are classified. 2. i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head. if i had studied advanced e & m a little better, i could probably come up with a _very_ good system. if the new regime comes to fruition, make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights. doug holland phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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 i envision incorporation of new standart into various communication systems, thus making it prevalent on the market & therefore cheap. the way to do that may be detaching crypto chip from communication equipment. it seems logical to provide clipper chip to the end-user not as a part of phone, fax, modem & like but in the form of smart-card compatible with various telecomm. products. banks will encourage extensive use of new cards to make transactions by phone. natural step will be to cross-reference this card to the person in the government databases - or else this new version of "wiretap proposal" make no sence at all; one wish to eavesdrop (spell.) on the particular person, not on the particular modem or phone. as a side note, i disagree with one poster, who said he won't care about ability of the government to eavesdrop, since they can do that now anyway. clipper will take away electronic survelliance from citizens, making it monopoly of the government. may be, we can find examples when interceptions made by (unauthorised) people uncovered crimes of state officials ? for pgp2.1 public key finger mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu 
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 i've recently moved from unix to a dos box and have a number of files that i used crypt to "protect". does anyone know of a dos version of crypt? i've found one, but it insists on six letter keys and i used some shorter ones. thanks for your help. -- doug 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15370">
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 once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access. the telco isn't supposed to give that without a warrant. that's the rule today. but even so, the evidence would not be admissible, i think, unless the judge so ordered. i think that even interception of the crypttext without a warrant would be illegal. cops can't record today's plain cellular calls and then ask a judge, "hey, can we have permission to listen to those tapes?" can they? how long do you think it will be before it becomes legal for the police to record encrypted conversations "it's not violating your privacy because we can't read the encryption without a warrant", with the usual good-faith exception if they accidentally record a non-encrypted conversation. besides, it's covered by the drug exception to the fourth amendment... # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15371" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 let me ask you this. would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys? i wouldn't. i take it you mean president nixon, not private citizen nixon. sure. nothing i'm doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon . david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15374">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15374" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 [summary elided] the system as described here can't possibly work. what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip? to get m the receiving chip needs k_p; to get k_p the receiving chip needs u_c. the only information it can work with is c. if u_c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the ``key escrow'' is bullshit. otherwise how is a message decrypted? the description of the chip's operation evidently leaves out some of the key management aspects. either the k_p is the secret key corresponding to a public key which is broadcast at message initiation, or it is the result of a diffie-hellman key exchange or something similar. either way there must be some protocols beyond those described here. it isn't clear whether they are implemented in the clipper wiretap chip or must be provided by other system components. hal finney 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15375">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15375" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says: there is a global key g, plus one key u_c for each chip c. the user can choose a new session key k_p for each phone call p he makes. chip c knows three keys: g, its own u_c, and the user's k_p. the government as a whole knows g and every u_c. apparently a message m is encrypted as e_g(e_{u_c}(k_p),c) , e_{k_p}(m). that's it. the system as described here can't possibly work. what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip? to get m the receiving chip needs k_p; to get k_p the receiving chip needs u_c. the only information it can work with is c. if u_c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the ``key escrow'' is bullshit. otherwise how is a message decrypted? via k_p, of course. nothing was said about where k_p comes from. it's the session key, though, and it's chosen however you usually choose session keys --- exponential key exchange, shared secret, rsa, etc. but however you choose it, the chip will apparently emit the escrow header when you do. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15376">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15376" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 what follows is my opinion. it is not asserted to be "the truth" so no flames, please. it comes out of a background of 20 years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune 50 companies. i'd be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business, if they told me it was more secure than des, and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese, french, and other competitive companies and governments to break. i'd be happy to do so even with escrowed keys, provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies (the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me, as would something set up by one of the big 8 accounting firms). i don't doubt that this will be the attitude of many corporate leaders. it's understandable--most corporate execs don't know much about cryptology, and it's easy to get taken in by someone peddling snake oil. and, the proposed scheme *is* a major improvement in telephone security to what exists now. the problem is that, with any security scheme of this kind, you have to concern yourself with the weakest link in the chain. i suspect that nsa has put a fairly strong encryption algorithm in this wiretap chip of theirs, probably at least as strong as (say) des in ofb-mode. unfortunately, the existence of the key-registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at a small fraction of the expense of trying to build (say) a des keysearch machine. as originally described, it sounded like any police / court combination could acquire the key for a given chip. i hope that's not the case, since it would imply a glaring hole. (how much does it cost to find *one* crooked jodge and *one* crooked cop? especially for a foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss?) however, even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations, there will be weak- nesses. they may be very expensive, and very difficult. but who would trust his/her confidential information to an encryption scheme that, for (say) $100,000 could by cracked one time in a hundred? (des, for all the complaints about a 56-bit key, would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for.) how many million dollars would the confidential phone messages of the gm headquarters be worth to nissan, chrysler, or audi? how about home phones of major execs and important engineers and designers? "gee, mr jones, i understand you've had some financial problems lately. maybe i can help..." i'd trust something from the nsa long before i'd trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese. indeed, if nsa really designed the algorithm to be secure, it's very likely as secure as idea or 2-key des. however, the system as a whole isn't resistant to "practical cryptanalysis." in _the puzzle palace_, bamford describes how several nsa employees were turned by foreign (presumably kgb) agents, despite security measures that i doubt any big 8 accounting firm could match. and nsa confidential data was *not* subject to being requested by thousands of police organizations and courts across the land. --john kelsey, c445585@mizzou1.missouri.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15379">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15379" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 get their copy of your key. any criminal who's going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper. the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption. this isn't true. today's criminals regularly use all sorts of unsafe methods, from cordless phones to cellular phones to plain old copper wire analog phones that you can put alligator clips on to plan and execute their crimes. it is amazing how stupid they are, which is why the fbi was so keen on the digital telphony law, and its successor the clipper chip. they're hoping here that most crooks will remain stupid, feel safe using clipper chip phones and get caught. brad templeton, clarinet communications corp. -- sunnyvale, ca 408/296-0366 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15380">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15380" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the greatest danger of the escrow database, if it were kept on disk, would be the chance that a complete copy could somehow leak out. you of course then it's hard to backup. however, i think the consequences of no backup -- the data is not there when a warrant comes -- are worse than the consequences of a secret backup. if the data isn't there when the warrant comes, you effectively have secure crypto. if secret backups are kept...then you effectively have no crypto. thus, this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto. no, the poster (me) has his brain in the wrong gear. as you can infer from the first sentence, i meant the consequences of no backup are *better* than the consequences of an easy to copy database. brad templeton, clarinet communications corp. -- sunnyvale, ca 408/296-0366 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15381">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15381" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 perhaps one way of getting away from this cripple chip that the u.s. government seems to be pushing would be to come up with a good alternative. for example, how about a scheme using rsa, and some hybrid of des-cfb and another strong stream cipher (maybe idea-cfb)? this could be substantially the same as the cripple chip, except that instead of key-registration, the police could demand that you give up your secret key to them (with a court- issued warrant). then, they could read the last few months of wiretapped messages you've sent, and assuming you've committed no crimes, you could generate a new key pair and go about your business. i find that i'd be willing to pay rsa for the right to use such a system, especially given the alternative. if you were unwilling to give up your secret key, then you'd probably stay in jail (has anyone got a real legal precedent for this?). this would allow court-issued warrants to be used to gather information on suspected criminals, but it couldn't be done in secrecy, and there would be enormously less likelihood of corruption or theft of escrowed keys. (maybe someone from the law-enforcement or intelligent community will correct me, but this doesn't *seem* like such a big loss in terms of law-enforcement capabilities.) any comments? --john kelsey 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15383">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15383" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i think your ideas are well taken and constructive. thanks for articulating them in this forum. 2) work the press. talk with your local newspaper's science and technology reporter. write to your favorite trade rags. better yet, write some articles yourself for your favorite magazines or newspapers. explain why the clipper chip initiative is a bad idea. remember to tailor it to your audience. the general public may be slow to grasp why it's a bad idea, since it seems so technical and arcane and innocent sounding. try not to come across as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist, even if you are one. as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist (:-), i'at a loss for specific objections that don't sound frighteningly technical. any suggestions? perhaps somebody could post a list of these? 5) mobilize opposition in industry. companies that will presumably develop products that will incorporate the clipper chip should be lobbied against it, from within and from without. if you work for a telecommunications equipment vendor, first enlist the aid of your coworkers and fellow engineers against this initiative, and then present your company's management with a united front of engineering talent against this initiative. write persuasive memos to your management, with your name and your colleagues' names on it. hold meetings on it. one way to do this might be to suggest that these companies should be implementing their own schemes, not being limited to the govt's i find that most of my reasons for opposition to the clipper scheme are algoritm insecurity and mistrust of the govt/nsa. these are hard to sell in letters to the editor and to nontechnical people. any hints or advice. maybe a small faq-type thing "why should i hate clipper" would be a good idea. <><><><><><><><><><>james holthaus james-holthaus@uiowa.edu<><><><><><><><><> < government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us. > < -- leo tolstoy > <><><><><>pgp 2.2 public key available on request or from key server<><><><><> 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15384">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15384" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the cryptographic protocol, though, is another matter. i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret, and -- as i hope i've shown above -- there it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret. if it were published, one could then build physically identical clone versions i recall seeing a post some time ago saying that if the details of an encryption scheme couldn't be revealed, then the encryption scheme is worthless. i believe the statement was in response to somebody saying that they had some new snazzy scheme, but the algorithm was a secret. does this algorithm depend on the fact that the scheme is secret or is it for the stated reasons above? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15387">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15387" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 let's assume, for the moment, that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses. let's say you even trust the escrow houses -- one is the aclu and the other is the eff. (and i'm not entirely joking about those two names) hi, i'm new to internet, so this is a bit of a test message, so even a token reply would be very appreciated. anyways, reading this i'd figure this would be as excellent a method of corrupting the aclu and the eff as could be wished for. "who gaurds the guardians?", etc... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15388">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15388" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 also.. how about a box that you plug your phone into, which would allow encrypted voice communications with someone who has a similar box? (digitizing input speech, transmitting, and decrypting on the other end). i don't know how a public-key system could work in this regard, but it might heh heh... i posted this just before reading all the clinton chip messages.. i guess they beat me to it.. anyway, i think it would be a great idea to develop such a product, perhaps in the underground, as it would otherwise probably become illegal pretty quickly here... it's really very feasible and shouldn't be too expensive - all that's needed is a box with a phone jack on one side, a dsp in the middle to do codec functions of speech->compressed bytestream, and an rs232 on the other side. you'd plug your phone into it, plug the rs232 into your computer, and have a good old fashioned normal modem on your other rs232 port. the cpu in the middle would do the encryption with a version of pgp modified to work on a byte stream. with v32bis or better modems to carry the bytestream, it should work. quality would only be marginally lower than a normal telephone. at the very highest price, you could use one of those voice-mail compatible modems to do the digitisation - that puts an upper bound of about $500 on the cost of such a box. in practice, you really ought to be able to get the price well below $100 - i could do it now in software on my cheap&nasty home risc box (acorn archimedes) with the digitising microphone i bought for 25 pounds, if i knew how to write good speech compression software (which i don't). the reason it won't work of course is that hardly anyone will have one - the only consumer equipment to have encryption will use the wiretap chip. economics, i'm afraid. however... we can get about 2kcps throughput on the internet even with the bottleneck of a v32bis modem. when we get isdn for all (ha ha ha) and the new nren, it might then be trivial to run compressed speech over a tcp/ip connection on the internet. perhaps we should start thinking now of a standard to keep voice on the internet compatible for everyone, and side-step the clipper stuff and use internet for all our phone calls in future :-) [1/2 joking] 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15389">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15389" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the protocol/key-management description published so far is either incomplete or incorrect. it leaves me with no idea of how the system would actually _work_. i hope the cpsr foia request succeeds so that we get full details. wouldn't it be easier just to ask denning@cs.georgetown.edu? ;-) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15393">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15393" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 [..stuff deleted] existence of the key-registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at a small fraction of the expense of trying to build (say) a des keysearch machine. as originally described, it sounded like any police / court combination could acquire the key for a given chip. i hope that's not the case, since it would imply a glaring hole. (how much does it cost to find *one* crooked jodge and *one* crooked cop? especially for a foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss?) however, even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations, there will be weak- nesses. they may be very expensive, and very difficult. but who would trust his/her confidential information to an encryption scheme that, for (say) $100,000 could by cracked one time in a hundred? (des, for all the complaints about a 56-bit key, would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for.) i can buy a des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx $500k, but it is not sold by that name. go buy a circuit emulation machine (eg. quickturn) containing a bunch of fpgas, (say 500 to 1000 3090's), and program each to be a des search engine. lets say 500 chips, running at 10mhz = 5g tests/sec. time is 14e6 sec max = 23 weeks, 12 weeks average. can't wait that long? buy a bigger machine. david lewis 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15394">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15394" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 not to pick on mr. may in particular, of course, but isn't this kind of the domino theory? when one little country falls, its neighbor will surely follow, and before you know it, we're all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings. there was an interesting column on the editorial page of the dallas morning news on saturday by walter williams, who i believe is a professor at georgetown (i wonder if he knows of dorothy "you're not in kansas anymore" denning). the article was titled "government slowly eroding our liberties", and in it he tells a story attributed to the late leonard read who explained that if you wanted to take liberty away from americans, you had to know how to cook a frog. mr. read said you can't cook a frog by boiling a pot of water and then throwing the frog in. his reflexes are so quick that as soon as his feet touch the water, he will leap away. you must put the frog in a pot of cold water and heat it up bit by bit. by the time the frog realizes he's being cooked, it is too late. it is the same with americans. if anyone tried to take our freedoms all at once, we would naturally rebel and suppress the tyrant. but as with successful frog cooking, our liberties can be taken a little bit at a time. the last line of the article says, "it's not too late for us, but the water is getting pretty warm." i'd have toagree that it's warm and the clipper is keeping the temperature on an upward course. note: followups redirected to alt.privacy.clipper jim jdailey@asic.sc.ti.com ti pays absolutely no attention to me or my opinions; therefore, the foregoing information cannot possibly represent ti's viewpoint. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15396">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15396" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 here's a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one: make it voluntary. as usually, you are not reading. the proposal -does- say that it is a "voluntary program". this doesn't make it more desirable, though... that is--you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key. otherwise you are on your own. "secure"? how do you know? because nsa is trying to make you believe it? "trust us." yeah, right. "otherwise you are on your own"? how do you know that tomorrow they will not outlaw encrypring devices that don't use "their" technology? because they are promising you? gee, they are not doing even that - read the proposal again. vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn < pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15399">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15399" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 though some may argue about the nose of the camel, it's worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony. if it is only used for that purpose, and does not extend to electronic mail or file as usual, david sternlight is demonstrating his inability to read. the proposal clearly states: => the initiative will involve the creation of new products to => accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure => telecommunications networks and wireless communications links. it speaks about telecommunications in general. read it again, david. maybe you'll understand it the next time... nah, probably not. encryption, then it is an improvement over the current mass-produced standard civilian technology which, with a few exceptions, is limited to easy-to-break inverters. that's exactly what the government wants all sheep-minded people to think. let's look at the current situation. it allows to almost anybody to eavesdrop almost everybody, unless secure (and i mean secure) encryption is used. what will happen when ("if"? ha! optimists...) the new proposal gets accepted? almost nobody except some will be able to eavesdrop everybody else, but the ability of these "some" to eavesdrop will be guaranteed! the proposal emphasizes on the former ("almost nobody") - which is clearly an improvement - and "forgets" to mention the drawbacks of the latter ("guaranteed"). yes, my statement assumes that the next step will be to make the strong crypto unlawful. you think that it will not happen? good luck. note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap. it's not just "continued ability". it's -guaranteed- ability. before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e-mail and files, let's focus on this. yeah, that's exactly what your government wants you to think. let's take small steps, one at a time. concentrate on the current one, don't think about the future. trust us. one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony, or if the government intends to expand it. it's not asked because the proposal clearly says that this is the intention. they, unlike you, read what they write. though i share many of the concerns expressed by some, i find the proposal less threatening than many others, since right now most americans have no secure telephony, and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a "goat" can eavesdrop. this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones. yes, it will. it will stop the jerk who is eavesdropping now. it will allow only to the government to eavesdrop. (if the scheme is secure, of course, which is yet to be proven.) but how do you know that the jerk you are fearing now will not get a government job tomorrow? the new proposal -guarantees- him the ability to eavesdrop then. hell, that will even motivate him to get that job - if he indeed is that mentally pervert... reading between the lines, i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys. great. the greatest cryptographer of all times david sternlight (tm) has succeeded to evaluate the new system in the absense of any details whatsoever and has concluded that it is "highly secure". i guess, that comes from the background of working some 50 years for the two major crypto evaluating companies, right? gee, now the government can save all that money and trouble to ask a secret council of crypto experts to secretly analyse the new secret method - for david sternlight has already done all the job for them... this would meet the needs of u.s. businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries, including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies. it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs. "trust us, we're from the government and we're here to help you." most legitimate u.s. corporations trust the nsa, and would be delighted to have a high-security system certified by them, even at the price of depositing keys in escrow. i see no difficulty in creating a reliable "those who are prepared to trade their liberties for the promises of future safety, do not deserve either." this (or something like that; i don't have the exact quote, but the meaning is the same) has been said by one of your great men. maybe you should study their works more carefully, if you have the brains to understand them, of course. from my point of view this is a fair starting point. there are concerns that need to be addressed, including the reliability of the escrows. but in the main question is to guarantee to availability of -really- secure cryptography to the masses. gee, if the proposal was saying "we guarantee that every american will still have the full right to use any kind of encryption s/he would like and regard this proposal as just a default, voluntary implementation", there would have been much less opposition... for some reason, they didn't even try to promise you that. i wonder why... was orwell off only by 10 years? return we get access to high-security crypto. no, in return you get crypto that is guaranteed to be crippled. many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed. while the above is just rumors, and while even if it is true, it is not done -easily-, the new scheme can is guaranteed to be easily breakable by anybody who has the two keys. it might be also breakable by somebody who does not have them but knows the right trick. or who has only one of them. nsa also told you that des is secure, why don't you simply trust them, huh? there is at least a good possibility (which should be checked) that the proposed system is not so breakable. it doesn't have to it is -guaranteed- to be -easily- breakable - just get the keys. it might be even easier, but until there is some evidence, this is just a wild speculation. be, nor does it have to have trapdoors, if the government can get the keys the trapdoors -are- there. in government's hands. the keys. pursuant to a legitimate court order. thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries, while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order. legitimate? and who decides what communications are legitimate? oh, i guess, it's the government, right? the guys who already have the keys? it's kinda if i have the keys from your car and i am asked to decide who has the right to use it "legitimately"... in discussing this, let's try to avoid the nastiness, personal attacks and noise of some previous threads. impossible, since you are demonstrating the same level of incompetence and ignorance as in the provious threads. this is a substantive and technical issue, and personal remarks have no place in such a discussion. unfortunately, i have yet to see you posting a technically competent vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn < pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15403">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15403" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i've been asked to supply more specific directions for automated fetching of the source and documentation for "agrep," the powerful similarity pattern matching tool. it is at cs.arizona.edu 192.12.69.5 in directory /agrep/readme /agrep/agrep-2.04.tar.z /agrep/agrep.ps.1.z /agrep/agrep.ps.2.z (the .ps suffixed files are the optional postscript docs; a reasonably good research report with benchmarks is included.) note for macintosh mpw users: after a few hours of drudgery, i ported the tool to mpw 3.2.3 running under system 7.1. if you would like me to e-mail a binhexed copy of the tool suitable for dropping in to your mpw/tools folder, please write... other than the more purely cryptographic uses for the tool i've been having lots of fun picking up the "lost" references to things i'm interested in. for example, starting a search like: agrep -1 -i 'burning chrome' cyberpunkspool immediately finds references like 'burning crome' that i have always missed before. see how many times john gilmore's name is mentioned in the cud archives (and how often misspelled). how about _your_ name? as usual, i will e-mail the uuencoded tar.z upon request if you cannot do anonymous ftp. grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15404">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15404" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 misinterpretation, though it should be a crime in itself, is what united states lawyers use to make their bread and butter. in manchester, ct a few years ago, a small company wanted to run a game system galled "lasergames," similar in many aspects to photon (tm). three lawyers and about a hundred citizens found an ancient law in manchester's books which clearly from context was designed to prohibit travelling carnivals by enumerating the features of a carnival which they felt at the time made the prohibition obvious. among these things was "shooting galleries," which is what the lawyers for the opposition to lasergames wanted to harp upon. the judge took the two words from this law, completely out of context, and ruled that lasergames could not operate in manchester. keep in mind that most travelling carnivals use projectile weapons in their shooting galleries, and not light beams. clearly from context, lasergames got shafted, but if the two words are applied, their denial of operating permission was justified. if i had the text of the law i'd post it, but i'm afraid i don't remember it all well enough to even try. that little bit with the two words stuck well, though. : john dormer : jad@expert.cc.purdue.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15407">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15407" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i wish i could agree with you. ask yourself this. why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised? (a) to use for sensitive but not strategically important traffic, (b) if the system was cheap. for example, i don't own a cordless phone. with clipper, i would. if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza, i'm no worse off than i am now, and i don't have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors. that is to say, clipper "raises the bar" on insecure channels. it doesn't make them secure, by any means, but a wall, even if the fbi can get a master key by court order, is still better than a "keep off the grass" sign. the answer seems obvious to me, they wouldn't. there is other hardware out there not compromised. des as an example (triple des as a better one.) so, where can i buy a des-encrypted cellular phone? how much does it cost? personally, cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use :)... how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u.s... ? the second and fourth amendments do come to mind. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15409">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15409" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret. if it were published, one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips. but the cloner wouldn't provide the keys to the escrow houses. hmmn. not necessarily --- they could release the details of the algorithm without releasing the "system key" (called sk by hellman). that would make most people happy, and with some sort of verification procedure before key exchange, the "official" chips would only work with other "official" chips. in other words, secrecy of sk makes "physically identical clone versions" impossible; secrecy of the algorithm shouldn't be necessary. of course, revealing the algorithm opens them up to attacks on sk --- since all units share this key, compromising it may be a big deal. personally, i wouldn't feel too comfortable knowing that one "secret" 80-bit number held in many places was all that guaranteed my security. of course, compromise of sk doesn't necessarily mean that the system is compromised, but it's impossible to tell whether or not that's true with a secret algorithm. incidentally, what's to keep a "secret algorithm" from using the secret sk as the main key, with uk being only marginally important. then a court order for uk may not even be necessary to do a wiretap. steve tate srt@cs.duke.edu | the reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem, dept. of computer science | above all other sciences, is that its laws are duke university | absolutely certain and indisputable, while those of all durham, nc 27706 | other sciences are to some extent debatable. (einstein) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15413">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15413" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self-incriminating? [from mike godwin <mnemonic@eff.org>, posted with permission - carl] sadly, it does not. suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars, and to take blood and dna tests. i am sure that mike is correct on this point. i am also pretty sure that administering "truth serum" would be ruled a violation of your right not to incriminate yourself. but, what is the salient difference? both drawing blood and injecting "truth serum" incapacitate you for a while, but do no permanent damage. is it simply that we have come to view one as acceptable, while the other is viewed as a fundamental violation of one's rights? if this is the case, how do we expand the protections of the 5th amendment to incorporate new technologies without the results being a hodgepodge of different judges personal opinions? rob stampfli rob@colnet.cmhnet.org the neat thing about standards: 614-864-9377 ham radio: kd8wk@n8jyv.oh there are so many to choose from. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15414">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15414" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 yes, those evil guys in the fbi can probably, with some effort, abuse the system. i got news for you, if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you, they're gonna, and you're gonna hate it. fact is, the fbi doesn't want to listen to your phone calls, and if they do, and if you're using triple-des, they'll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head. just because they can do it anyway, somehow, does not mean it is smart to make the job easier for them. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15415">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15415" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ( below is my response to dr. denning's letter to steven bellovin. comments are invited. - paul ) in alt.privacy.clipper, steve bellovin posted your message to him, which included a brief passage concerning selection of agencies as escrow agencies. i am glad to see that the proposal as written states that the escrow agencies won't be law enforcement agencies. i would argue, however, that *one* of the escrow agencies shouldn't be federal at all. as a private citizen, i would feel much more "secure in my person and papers" knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties- the aclu and the nra come to mind- was safeguarding half of my key. both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported, funded, or overtly controlled by the government. of those federal and federally funded candidate agencies that you mentioned, i have the following comments: - sri, rand, mitre, and national labs: i agree that they have great experience safeguarding sensitive information. i am not convinced that they would adequately safeguard _this_ information, since in any case requiring disclosure, there's likely to be sigificant pressure for disclosure- possibly *wrongful* disclosure. - gao: perhaps. i would like to see more concrete evidence of their fidelity and ability. - *treasury*? surely you're joking. perhaps you'd ask batf to safeguard keys. maybe the federal reserve would be a better choice. ever since last fall's "trial balloon" was posted in sci.crypt, your name has been synonymous with those who place a great deal of trust in the ability of government agencies and agents to act within the law. i agree with you in part: those agencies and agents *almost always* act properly. however, there have been enough cases where _sworn agents of the federal government_ have acted wrongly to make me feel that having two federal agencies as key repositories is unacceptable. -paul robichaux (not speaking for nti, bcss, or nasa) paul robichaux, kd4jzg | help stop the big brother chip! nti mission software development div. | ripem key on request. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15418">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15418" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : [deletions] : > how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of : > providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making : > the clipper system the only crypto available in the u.s... ? : the second and fourth amendments do come to mind. i think i heard someplace (misc.legal?, comp.org.eff.talk?) that the courts have pretty much eliminated the fourth amendment already. allen@well.sf.ca.us words got me the wound ethridge@bnr.ca and will get me well, my opinions are my own if you believe it. -- jim morrison 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15420">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15420" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if you can't be bothered reading, get the video "manufacturing consent". in reply to mail queries; i don't know if a video is available yet. i asked about a month ao and was told rsn. yes it is. from the national film board of canada. ah, not in the usa. thats a relief, thought 'reality' must be slipping for a second. :-) st noam was on the radio tonight, he has just published a new book "501 years". published by south end i guess. could some bostonian confirm please? i would love to hear what he thinks of the clipper scam. ~paul ps the first posting i saw i thought was a joke in *very* bad taste. my appologies to the person who broke the news. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15422">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15422" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 |> >sadly, it does not. suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and |> >voice exemplars, and to take blood and dna tests. |> i am sure that mike is correct on this point. i am also pretty sure that |> administering "truth serum" would be ruled a violation of your right |> not to incriminate yourself. but, what is the salient difference? you can find the salient difference in any number of 5th amendment related supreme court opinions. the court limits 5th amendment protections to what they call "testimonial" evidence, as opposed to physical evidence. the whole question would hinge on whether a crypto key would be considered "testimonial" evidence. i suppose arguments could be made either way, though obviously i would hope it would be considered 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15424">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15424" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if we do not trust the nsa to be a registrar of clipper chip key halves, i would not trust mitre either. mitre does lots of work for nsa, at least in the trusted product evaluation program (evaluation of commercial off the shelf software for its efficacy in safeguarding classified information), and i assume in other, less open, programs. there are at least two other ffrdcs (federally funded research and development corporations) that work for nsa: aerospace corporation and the institute for defense analysis. now, if nsa were to be untrustworthy (a position that i am neutral about, for purposes of this posting), it would be in a position to exert economic pressure upon mitre to release key halves on demand. it could just say, "if you don't cooperate with us, we'll place all our evaluation contracts with aerospace and ida." i am not saying that people at nsa, mitre, aerospace, or ida are dishonest folk. but since they are people, and people occasionally go bad, the system works better if organizations that you are depending upon to be independent really are. and, of course, i speak for myself, not my employer. lynn grant 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15425">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15425" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum, for example, about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence. this might put a stop to such things, which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions. far more likely, these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given. "key escrow" is likely going to prove to be a perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15427">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15427" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 further, the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase. talk about adding insult to injury ... i, for one, believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by a decent administration, not continued. instead, it looks like that ill-gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment. i wholeheartedly agree. knowing that we have let our law enforcement agencies seize our property against the fifth amendment of our constitution tells me that we are absolving ourselves of our responsibility for self-governance. we have to take our government back from the self-serving politicians who create laws and rules only to better their positions within the government. we have allowed them to take too much power from the people of this nation. that situation has to be changed. allowing the law enforcement agencies to use the seized property to pay-off drug informants who lie and continue to deal in drugs is tantamount to making a pact with the devil himself. it's a vicious cycle. the law enforcement agencies are motivated to seize property to fund their own activities. and having no easy way for the citizen to regain the property intact once taken gives even more incentive for the agencies to take property. it's also interesting to note that two months ago rush limbaugh said that clinton would have the "plumbers" out in force shortly. clinton and his henchmen firmly believe in strong ubiquitous government control. anytime a leader believes in that, the leader will use every means possible to retain that control and take more. we have to take our government back. otherwise we will end up living in the equivalent of a high-tech third world dictatorship. we have to take responsibility for ourselves, our personal welfare, and our actions. __ paul j. olson - vax systems manager & resident amiga addict c= /// voice - 301/286-4246, 301/210-7701 __ /// decnet- charon::paul \\\/// internet - paul@charon.gsfc.nasa.gov \xx/ disclaimer: statements in my messages are wholely my own. amiga "ignorance is a renewable resource." -- p.j. o'rourke 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15431">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15431" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the system, or 'family', key would appear to be cryptographically useless, since *every* chip must know it and be able to remove its effects from the bitstream. i daresay that it will be widely known almost immediately after this system is deployed, and since it's been pointed out that there is not a separate decrypt key -- the same key is used for both encryption and decryption -- there goes any benefit to the use of a system-wide key in skipjack. robert bickford "a hacker is any person who derives joy from rab@well.sf.ca.us discovering ways to circumvent limitations." rab'86 "i recognize that a class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves 'hackers', but i consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word; just as the mafia calls themselves 'businessmen' but nobody pays that fact any attention." rab'90 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15432">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15432" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 for example, i don't own a cordless phone. with clipper, i would. if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza, i'm no worse off than i am now, and i don't have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors. i do tend to agree. sigh. so, where can i buy a des-encrypted cellular phone? how much does it cost? of course, if we didn't have government monopolies on cellular phone service, there probably *would* be some available. how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u.s... ? the second and fourth amendments do come to mind. the second amendment is especially apt, given the itar definitions of crypto equipment as munitions, and the gun-control people's increasing ability to define things as "assault weapons" and make them illegal. triple-des is obviously used for "assault phones", while cripple will be legal, and triple-cripple may fall into the gray area of "illegally upgrading to an assault phone"... # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15441">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15441" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the following is available in some ftp archive somewhere, i insert my comments liberally throughout this demonic memo of big brotherdom: white house announcement on screw thread standards this is to announce that the american national standards institute (or whatever it is) has been given the authority to define standard dimensions for screw threads. look! this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications. if this madness isn't fought, tooth and nail, every step of the way, it'll be a crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so *graciously* define for us. [sarcastic text deleted, no value judgement implied] screw you, bill clinton! you and your totalitarianist thugs! amolitor@nmsu.edu | finger for pgst personal screw thread pitch, or screw threads | see the screw thread servers. must be freed! | at first i was going to complain that your analogy was completely irrelevant. but then i remembered something. remember that move to get the u.s. to the metric system all those years ago? as far as i know we were supposed to be there by now. the government sold it as better for the people, easier to be in tune with the rest of the world. they had decided it was for our own good. then, when the plan was released, it soon became apparant that the government were a bunch 'o' thickies. think about it, change all the railroad track widths, signs, screws, abolish the old regime. at the cost of millions of dollars. your point is well taken. you think there is nothing to worry about, you could care less who designs your cryptography, any more than who designs your screws or the system of measurement you use. sit back, that's right, just relax, we'll take care of all your needs mr. molitor. uni@acs.bu.edu -> public keys by finger and/or request public key archives: <pgp-public-keys@pgp.iastate.edu> sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past.<>fight clinton's wiretap chip! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c <> crypto is not a crime! ask me how! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15442">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15442" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in previous postings by hellman, bellovin, etal it was reported the big brother (clipper) chip will encrypt plaintext in 64 bit blocks as is done with des. the users key k which can be derived from rsa, diffy-hellman, etc. is used to encrypt plaintext m and is then used to form a "three part message". this three part message consists of e[m; k], k encrypted with some other key, and the chip serial number. this three part message is then encrypted by still another key. my question is: what is a message? for example, say we are dealing with an encrypted digitized voice application. the speech waveform is sampled and digitized and then some number of samples are grouped into a 64 bit block. this block is then encrypted and transmitted over a non-secure communications link. where is the three part message? is something appended to each 64 bit block? is a header sent at the beginning of the if the header is sent at the beginning of the session, how do they insure the equipment manufacturer using the chip does just that? can just anyone manufacture products using the chip? is a facility clearance required to manufacture? any ideas? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15446">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15446" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i suspect that this clipper thing could backfire on the gov in a big hurry. i expect that products using these chips will socket them rather than soldering them, since once the keys are handed over by the escrow agencies, the chip is so much garbage, and will need to be replaced. i expect that someone will come along with a pin compatible chip that uses secure encryption -- possibly even disguised so that it's not possible to tell it from the clipper chip until you try to use the 2 backdoor keys. if i were to manufacture such a chip, as part of my marketing strategy, i would try to subvert one or both escrow agencies either through bribes or industrial espionage -- and then publicize the fact. (doing my best not to be connected with such activities -- which would likely not be legal :-) publicly discrediting the escrow agencies would go quite far towards creating a market for a secure alternative. i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip, and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread. any back- doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme, and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative. i believe that the company that provides such an alternative will make few friends in the le community, but lots of money. i also believe that the government will do it's best to make such plug replacements illegal. i expect that they will see the same success in limiting the availability of such alternatives as they have seen in limiting the availability of certain illicit drugs -- ie. little to none. ian ameline. (of course the ramblings above have nothing to do with my employer, nor do i necessarily advocate doing any of the things described here -- i just believe that the events above are likely to take place) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15448">
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 another objection occurred to me. there was a comment about how supposedly there would only be one decode box, operated by the fbi. this is flat ridiculous, and i don't believe it for a millisecond. even *if* they in fact only build one (or two or some other small number) of these, that won't stop others from building one. make it work like two clipper-chip phones, one listening to each side of the recorded conversation. i'll have to have another look at the specs posted so far, but offhand i didn't see anything that would preclude this sort of thing..... robert bickford rab@well.sf.ca.us treasurer and newsletter editor, /-------------------------------------\ lib. party of marin county (ca) | don't blame me: i voted libertarian | member, ca state central committee \-------------------------------------/ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15451">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15451" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum, for example, about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence. this might put a stop to such things, which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions. far more likely, these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given. "key escrow" is likely going to prove to be a i feel like winston churchill in 1941 :( ...... but, the privacy clipper will, to the extent key escrow is legitimate, stop most of the abuse of wiretaps by local cops, company cops, angry husbands/ wives, etc... it is going to be hard for the keystone cops, the proctor&gamble cops, etc. to bypass even a product as flawed as the clipjob. now i admit, i am hard pressed to find anything else good to say about it except that, if it actually takes off, someone will certainly come up with a real crypto chip (pin compatable!) that we can buy... unless, of course, big brother makes it illegal to have real crypto 'cause good honest law abiding citizens will be happy to let the government listen to their every word.... "me? did i say that?" "i am not a crook." - president richard m. nixon information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15453">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15453" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the algorithm is classified because a military contract (or similar government equivalent to military) has been let for this "proprietary" design that the feds say that nsa developed. is there a patent? is that patent publicly available? my betting is that that too is classified. unless there has been a _major_ change in the law, there's no such beast as a "classified patent." patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art. (the 17-year lock is a nuisance, but historically has been pretty trivial. it's only in an industry which doubles performance every three years (or 18 months, for some hardware) that 17 years is an eternity). the same thing applies in civilian development: you can't patent something _and_ declare it a "trade secret." however, you can (and should) mark all software (including proprietary code) "unpublished copyright" so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection. (post-berne this isn't required, since everything is "born copyrighted." but it takes a while for people to learn the new rules). bear giles bear@fsl.noaa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15455">
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 the following document summarizes the clipper chip, how it is used, how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process, and how law enforcement decrypts communications. since there has been some speculation on this news group about my own involvement in this project, i'd like to add that i was not in any way involved. i found out about it when the fbi briefed me on thursday evening, april 15. since then i have spent considerable time talking with the nsa and fbi to learn more about this, and i attended the nist briefing at the department of commerce on april 16. the document below is the result of that effort. dorothy denning the clipper chip: a technical summary dorothy denning april 19, 1993 on april 16, the president announced a new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in a voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement. at the heart of the plan is a new tamper-proof encryption chip called the "clipper chip" together with a split-key approach to escrowing keys. two escrow agencies are used, and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct a key. chip structure the clipper chip contains a classified 64-bit block encryption algorithm called "skipjack." the algorithm uses 80 bit keys (compared with 56 for the des) and has 32 rounds of scrambling (compared with 16 for the des). it supports all 4 des modes of operation. throughput is 16 mbits a second. each chip includes the following components: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used, imagine that it is embedded in the at&t telephone security device (as it will be). suppose i call someone and we both have such a device. after pushing a button to start a secure conversation, my security device will negotiate a session key k with the device at the other end (in general, any method of key exchange can be used). the key k and message stream m (i.e., digitized voice) are then fed into the clipper chip to produce two values: e[m; k], the encrypted message stream, and e[e[k; u] + n; f], a law enforcement block. the law enforcement block thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n, all encrypted under the family key f. chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif (secure computer information facility), which is essentially a vault. the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips. about 300 chips are programmed during a single session. the scif is located at at the beginning of a session, a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault. agent 1 enters an 80-bit value s1 into the laptop and agent 2 enters an 80-bit value s2. these values serve as seeds to generate keys for a sequence of serial numbers. to generate the unit key for a serial number n, the 30-bit value n is first padded with a fixed 34-bit block to produce a 64-bit block n1. s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple-encrypt n1, producing a 64-bit block r1: r1 = e[d[e[n1; s1]; s2]; s1] . similarly, n is padded with two other 34-bit blocks to produce n2 and n3, and two additional 64-bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed: r2 = e[d[e[n2; s1]; s2]; s1] r3 = e[d[e[n3; s1]; s2]; s1] . r1, r2, and r3 are then concatenated together, giving 192 bits. the first 80 bits are assigned to u1 and the second 80 bits to u2. the rest are discarded. the unit key u is the xor of u1 and u2. u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow as a sequence of values for u1, u2, and u are generated, they are written onto three separate floppy disks. the first disk contains a file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u1. the second disk is similar but contains the u2 values. the third disk contains the unit keys u. agent 1 takes the first disk and agent 2 takes the second disk. the third disk is used to program the chips. after the chips are programmed, all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave. the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind. the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two. the first two would provide the seeds s1 and s2, and the second two (the escrow agents) would take the disks back to the escrow agencies. the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined, but they will not be the nsa, cia, fbi, or any other law enforcement agency. one or both may be independent from the government. law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line, they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line. let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with clipper. they will first decrypt the law enforcement block with the family key f. this gives them e[k; u] + n. they will then take a warrant identifying the chip serial number n to each of the key escrow agents and get back u1 and u2. u1 and u2 are xored together to produce the unit key u, and e[k; u] is decrypted to get the session key k. finally the message stream is decrypted. all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder operated by the fbi. acknowledgment and distribution notice. all information is based on information provided by nsa, nist, and the fbi. permission to distribute this document is granted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15460">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15460" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 encrypted under k, then k will be encrypted under the unit key uk, and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk e{ e[m; k], e[k; uk], serial number; sk} my understanding is that e[m; k] is not encrypted under sk (called the "family key") and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement. does anyone have first hand knowledge on this? i will also check it out, but this is 7am sunday so i did not want to wait. ok, so there are in fact two distinct components transmitted by the chip; the real message encrypted with the "conventional" key, and the serial number and encrypted "conventional" key encrypted with the (imho kind of bogus, as the whole concept of "one key that millions of people use which can't be changed" doesn't seem reasonable) "family key". suppose i analyze the output of this chip and i'm able to determine which bits are the encrypted packet which contains the serial number and session key. suppose i also design a simple algorithm based on this information which takes the data containing the encrypted session key and twiddles a bit (or several) before it's sent down the line. mind you, i'm sure the nsa thought of this along with a dozen other attacks i can't imagine, and the system is probably somehow designed so that manipulation of this information will cause a compliant receiving chip to somehow fail to decrypt successfully. but how? what if the two parties agree in advance on some kind of consistent bit-twiddling scheme, so the decryption chip sees the restored "proper" bitstream but an eavesdropper gets a e[k; uk] packet that's i suppose this could be easily defeated if the chip "sends" that information out many times in slightly different ways, making it effectively impossible to be certain you know all the information being sent. marc vanheyningen mvanheyn@cs.indiana.edu mime & ripem accepted if your theory predicts different outcomes depending on whether you use discrete mathematics or continuous mathematics, then you've got the wrong theory. - bruce maclennan 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15461">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15461" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 now, i'm not one of the people who distrusts the government at every turn, but taking someone's word for it that the s1/s2 pairs are not kept around is pushing what i'm willing to believe just a little bit too far. even if they somehow address this issue it is unlikely to be the only back door in -- they might even have a few intentionally visible to distract from the ones that aren't visible. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15463">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15463" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms, why is not every american entitled, as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context? if not, please do so before posting this misinterpretation again. it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia, not for individuals to carry handguns, grenades, and assault rifles. the supreme court seems to disagree with you -- they have stated that "the people" is a term of art refering to an individual right, and have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example. i quote: "... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the constitution. the preamble declares that the constitution is ordained, and established by 'the people of the the u.s.' the second amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms ...." - supreme court of the u.s., u.s. v. uerdugo-uriquidez (1990). furthermore, in the miller decision, they only permitted prosecution for possession of a sawed-off shotgun because the defense had not presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the government that such weapons have no military value -- they held that the amendment protected the individual right to possess military weapons. unfortunately, no second amendment case has successfully gotten to the court in fifty years. however, that does not change the furthermore, it appears that others disagree with you as well, vis: "the conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the constitution of the united states, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratifi- cation, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." - report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary, united states senate, 97th congress, second session ( february 1982 ) you might rightfully ask "well then, what does that first bit about militias mean?" well, "militia" in historical context basically means the whole of the adult males of the country. (indeed, the u.s. code still defines "militia" as all armed men over the age of 17). "the militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense .... and ... these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." - supreme court of the united states, u.s. v. miller (1939). the reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale behind the amendment, which was this: by depending on the people to bear arms in defense of the country, no centralization of military power could ever occur which would permit tyranny -- in short, the government would remain perpetually in fear of the people, rather than the other way around. "no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - thomas jefferson, proposal virginia constitution, june 1776 1 thomas jefferson papers, 334 (c. j. boyd, ed., 1950). "and what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance ? let them take arms ... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - thomas jefferson (letter to william s. smith, 1787, in jefferson, on democracy 20, s. padover, ed., 1939). "before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of europe. the supreme power in america cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the united states." - noah webster, "an examination into the leading principles of the federal constitution" (1787), in pamphlets on the constitution of the united states (p. ford, 1888). you may disagree with the second amendment, and wish that it be repealed, but please do not pretend that it isn't there and that it doesn't mean what it says. you might argue that conditions have changed and that it should no longer be present, but you can't imagine it away. i could fill a book with detailed argumentation. many have already. however, none of this has anything to do with cryptography. lets get it out of here. if you insist on discussing this, please do it in talk.politics.guns, where people will gladly discuss this matter with perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15469">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15469" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the answer seems obvious to me, they wouldn't. there is other hardware out there not compromised. des as an example (triple des as a better one.) so, where can i buy a des-encrypted cellular phone? how much does it cost? personally, cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use :)... if the clipper chip can do cheap crypto for the masses, obviously one could do the same thing without building in back doors. indeed, even without special engineering, you can construct a good system right now. a standard codec chip, a chip to do vocoding, a des chip, a v32bis integrated modem module, and a small processor to do glue work, are all you need to have a secure phone. you can dump one or more of the above if you have a fast processor. with integration, you could put all of them onto a single chip -- and in the future they can be. yes, cheap crypto is good -- but we don't need it from the government. you can do everything the clipper chip can do without needing it to be compromised. when the white house releases stuff saying "this is good because it gives people privacy", note that we didn't need them to give us privacy, the capability is available using commercial hardware right now. indeed, were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them, qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering. were it not for the nsa and company, cheap encryption systems would be everywhere. as it is, they try every trick in the book to stop it. had it not been for them, i'm sure cheap secure phones would be out right now. they aren't the ones making cheap crypto available. they are the ones keeping cheap crypto out of people's hands. when they hand you a clipper chip, what you are getting is a mess of pottage -- your prize for having traded in your birthright. and what did we buy with our birthright? did we get safety from foreigners? no. they can read conference papers as well as anyone else and are using strong cryptography. did we get safety from professional terrorists? i suspect that they can get cryptosystems themselves on the open market that work just fine -- most of them can't be idiots like the guys that bombed the trade center. are we getting cheaper crypto for ourselves? no, because the market would have provided that on its own had they not deliberately sabotaged it. someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography? perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15471">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15471" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 since the wiretap chip is being distributed internationally, allowing the u.s. government to spy on foreign governments, companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens, this is a world-wide issue. please put distribution: world on the distrubution: line. thank you. no! distribution keywords are case sensitive. what you want distribution: world or no distribution line at all. "world" in capital letters is wrong. --apb alan barrett, dept. of electronic eng., univ. of natal, durban, south africa rfc822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15476">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15476" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip, and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread. the chip and algorithm are classified. if you reverse engineer it and tell people, you are likely to go to jail. perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa. the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware, but a software implementation should be practical. john carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15477">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15477" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : from: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (perry e. metzger) : indeed, were it not for the government doing everything possible to : stop them, qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to : the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering. were it not for : the nsa and company, cheap encryption systems would be everywhere. as : it is, they try every trick in the book to stop it. had it not been : for them, i'm sure cheap secure phones would be out right now. in the uk, it's impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network. (anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved - for some reason crypto devices just never are...) i was wondering some time ago how big a market there was for good old- fashion acoustic coupler technology to build a secure phone :-) ... is it possible to mask out all the real voice well enough so that none of it strays into the mouthpiece? perhaps a well-sealed coupler attachment that was as well blocked as possible, then a white noise generator on the outside to muffle any real speech? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15478">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15478" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : the cops/feds do *not* need to be able to get hold of your private key to : listen in to cellular conversations. encryption is not end-to-end, but : cellphone to base-station - it *has* to be this way so that cellular users : and fixed installations can talk to each other. for cellular to cellular : calls, the transmission is decrypted at the base-station, passed to another : base-station and re-encrypted. the cops/feds can listen to the unscrambled : call *provided* they get a warrant to tap into the cellular provider's : equipment. the only reason for wanting a crackable system is so they can : listen without having to obtain a warrant. : but, maybe the clipper system is secure, and they really do need a warrant : to get the key out of escrow before they can listen in using a scanner (see : above - they don't *have* to go down this route anyway). i have my doubts, : but even if true once they have the key they will *never* again need a : warrant to tap into that particular phone whenever they want. `well, judge, : it appears he wasn't a drug-dealer after all, so naturally we'll stop : listening in'... that was true for the uk paul, but i'm fairly sure they're talking about building end-to-end encryption phones out of this chip. it's *not* for cellular (though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15479">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15479" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 since the at&t wiretap chip is scheduled to be distributed internationally, allowing the u.s. government to spy on foreign governments, companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens, this is a world-wide issue. thus distribution: world. however assuming that i can still encrypt things as i please, who cares about the clipper chip? why do we hackers care about the clipper chip? do we give a shit about anybody's privacy accept our own? and perhaps not even our own; are we so smart that we always know when we're talking to somebody who has a wiretap on their phone? i find the "call thru your computer" ideas may reflect this attitude. ideas that are of, by, and for hackers, and don't help anybody in the real world, aren't going to do anybody much good, including ourselves where voice phones are concerned. we *do* need an alternative to nsa-bugged telephones, but we're talking inexpensive *telephones* here, including hand-sized cellulars, that need strong crypto, real privacy. make-shift computer hacker rigs that require living by your computer to talk privately over the phone are just a dumb stunt that doesn't do anything for anybody's privacy in the real world. what we need is a true *privacy chip*. for example, a real-time voice-encryption rsa, silicon compile it and spit out asic. put this chip on the market as a de facto standard for international business, diplomats, and private communications. if the u.s. bans it, we make it somewhere else and import it. the japanese, german, dutch, taiwanese, korean, etc. electronics companies don't want the nsa spying on them. u.s. workers lose more jobs to government fascist jhart@agora.rain.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15482">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15482" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 just a question. as a provider of a public bbs service - aren't you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs, if police comes with sufficent authorisation ? i guessed this would be a basic condition for such systems. (i did run a bbs some time ago, but that was in switzerland) you are obliged to let the police search the equipment if they have a proper court order. you are under no legal obligation to keep the data intelligble. if you wish to run your bbs entirely with all data encrypted such that if the police show up they cannot read anything, well, thats their problem. there are no legal restrictions on domestic use of cryptography in the united states -- yet. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15484">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15484" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 [..stuff deleted] but who would trust his/her confidential information to an encryption scheme that, for (say) $100,000 could by cracked one time in a hundred? (des, for all the complaints about a 56-bit key, would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for.) i can buy a des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx $500k, but it is not sold by that name. go buy a circuit emulation machine (eg. quickturn) containing a bunch of fpgas, (say 500 to 1000 3090's), and program each to be a des search engine. lets say 500 chips, running at 10mhz = 5g tests/sec. time is 14e6 sec max = 23 weeks, 12 weeks average. can't wait that long? buy a bigger machine. oh, but can big brother afford such things in these times of tight i don't know how many folks noticed it, but dorothy "trust me" denning gave a real clue to the current state of the art at nsa on decrypto machines when she said the nsa told her they didn't even want to be the holder of any part of the key. now why is that? i doubt there is a trapdoor in skipjack. (but we will never know). and i doubt the nsa would promote a mass market chip they couldn't compromise. ergo, nsa is now capable of compromising (probably with brute force keysearch) engines of the complexity of skipjack. look at the specs. why, i bet they have thousands of little chips chugging away in their crypto busters... maybe even tens of thousands. complexity? not much more than a 3090. how many such machines will fit into fort meade? i think pgp2.3 should have 256 bit idea keys... information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ support privacy: support encryption (--)\ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15485">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15485" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i'd be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business, if they told me it was more secure than des, and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese, french, and other competitive companies and governments to break. (it's nist, not nsa. nsa is not supposed to have anything to do with this.) with all the activity in sci.crypt these past few days, i am not supprised you missed it... nist got skipjack from the nsa :) i'd trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors--i'd be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure. i wouldn't trust the nsa. i think i would trust the president on this, but i'm not certain he would be told. "i am not a crook." president richard m. nixon information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ support privacy: support encryption (--)\ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15494">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15494" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip *must* have been under development for considerably longer than the 3 months that clinton has been president. this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest; it has been in the works for some time. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15495">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15495" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 each chip includes the following components: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip hmmm. a thirty bit serial number. and, we are told, the unit key u is derived deterministically from this serial number. that means that there are only one billion possible unit keys. oh hell, it's *much* worse than that. you think they'll ever make more than a million of them? serial numbers aren't handed out at random you know, they start at 1 and work up... call it a 20 bit space maybe. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15497">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15497" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from 2. i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head. if i had studied advanced e & m a little better, i could probably come up with a _very_ good system. wouldn't a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks? rob stampfli rob@colnet.cmhnet.org the neat thing about standards: 614-864-9377 ham radio: kd8wk@n8jyv.oh there are so many to choose from. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15500">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15500" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 proof windows is a virus:it is very widespread, it eats up your disk space, it slows down your computer, it takes control over your computer, it performs disk access at random times, it displays silly messages on your screen, it randomly crashes the computer-vesselin this sounds like a version unix. solaris? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15504">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15504" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones, a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created. criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications (specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats) will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user, and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed. once a suitable collection of devices is stolen, criminals can communicate with impunity (assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow) until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means. because life-is-cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal very large and conspicuous property (luxury cars), it is reasonable to assume that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous property (a cipher cellular phone). just as we have seen in the past with "blue box" technology, and in the present with modified cellular phones, we can expect to see among high-stakes criminals a lucrative market for stolen cipher phones which can be used for a few days. the high-stakes criminals will pay the life-is-cheap types substantial amounts for stolen because a person is typically discovered as missing or dead in a few days, a stolen instrument will be usable for only a few days. there will be a continuing demand for fresh phones: fresh bodies. in other words, clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn a current inconvenience to law enforcement into a direct, vicious, and persistent threat to the general public. on the other hand, if a criminal were to apply some arbitrary cipher to a device in a mostly non-ciphered network, the communication will at least stand out as being unusual, and perhaps worthy of other means of investigation. finally, because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments, there will exist strong motivation to record and archive _all_ communications in the network for ex-post-facto scrutiny (once some criminal act is discovered, and the instruments involved have been identified). while recording and archiving may not be feasible for wireline networks, it is probably feasible across the more limited bandwidth of radio networks. the existence of these recordings could open up vast potential for abuse. brad yearwood brad@optilink.com {uunet, pyramid}!optilink!brad petaluma, ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15505">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15505" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from 2. i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head. if i had studied advanced e & m a little better, i could probably come up with a _very_ good system. wouldn't a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks? actually, old video games and pinball machines are supposed to work pretty good (at blocking em eavesdropping), too. those things put out a lot of em noise. back in the 80's, i read about computer companies putting bunches of games in their buildings for just this purpose (not to mention the $$$). 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15506">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15506" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 it seems to me that all discussions about clipper security are almost irrelevant - if i cannot choose the key, but have to use a key chosen for me by the foundry, the security of the whole universe of users is as good (or as bad) as the security of vlsi technologies inc. - or their handlers. it is a trivial effort to run any ciphertext agains all the keys ever manufactured - after all we are talking about 1 to 100 million keys that will ever be manufactured. the key depositories can be as secure and incorruptible as they wish to be, nobody cares anyway...:-( they key depositories are irrelevant. in order for the applicable law enformcement agencies to be able to know what keys to request from escrow, the system will have to squawk its serial number in clear text as part of the link establishment protocol. whoever owns the program that assigns keys to each serial number won't need access to the key in other words, the fbi may need a court-ordered release of escrowed keys, but the nsa has the keys before the chip is ever manufactured. there is no need to go through the escrow or to try all keys. while relations between law enforment agencies have sometimes been strained, there is also a long history of trading favors. this will re-establish the nsa as a very important agency for everyone to get along with, because they can give you untraceable encryption leaks without court the more i think about this affair, the fouler it smells. i'd rather have a des with an engineered-in backdoor ... / lars poulsen, smts software engineer internet e-mail: lars@cmc.com cmc network products / rockwell int'l telephone: +1-805-968-4262 santa barbara, ca 93117-3083 telefax: +1-805-968-8256 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15511">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15511" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 whatever happens though, the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like a sore thumb. it already does. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15513">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15513" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 with e-mail, if they can't break your pgp encryption, they'll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal. note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest? i can see high-voltage type display devices being vulnerable (crts, plasma displays, etc.) but jason beat me to this question. what about em radiation from low-voltage items like lcd displays? perhaps the critical element is the driver circuitry? the cabling? what about a portable pc/mac/etc., where all the "noise" is bunched into one tiny area? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15516">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15516" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications (specificall the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats) will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user, and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed. why doing it in such a rough manner? it is much more professional to steal the chip from the phone and even to replace it with a pin-compatible do-nothing chip that does not encrypt at all. chances are that the victim will not notice anything, especially if it is done once a suitable collection of devices is stolen, criminals can communicate with impunity (assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow) until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means. no, because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations. true, they'll blame the wrong guys, but nevertheless one cannot say something like "the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship 'terminus'" when the feds are listening, even if they cannot identify who the speaker is. no, the criminals will just use some secure encryption. the new proposal does not stop criminals; it ensures that the government will be able to wiretap the average citizen and stops the casual snooper. to me, it also clearly looks as a step towards outlawing any other strong encryption devices. vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn < pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15519">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15519" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the majority of the discussion involving this "clipper chip" seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations. does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals? the language sort of suggests this, but it's hard to say. i'd lay a few bucks that its just data-in-data-out in parallel. i suspect to make it a phone you'd need a codec and speech compression. there would be a loss of bandwidth on the speech signal, which i suspect would scupper any of the suggestions i've seen here about putting a different encryption front end on it. there's no hint of any modulation scheme in the docs. i'm sure it's purely a digital chip. the back end will come later, but i'm *positive* it won't be left to the manufacturers - they all have to be the same modulation scheme to make it easy for the nsa to tap them. the only other possibility is that this is intended only for isdn phones. (puts a whole new spin on effs obsession about isdn if true, bwahahaha! ;-) ) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15520">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15520" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :if the clinton clipper is so very good, why not make its algrithm public :so many people can exchange ideas and examine it, rather than a few :isolated 'respected experts' (respected by whom? for what? perhaps a :certain professor who likes key banks would be one of the selected :experts... this does seem to expand on some ideas the person was :advocating, if i recall :-). how would anybody know that what the actually, i am *completely* baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this. it looks to me like a *major* career limiting move. there can be very few people who know what she's been saying who take her seriously any more. i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn't care any more? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15521">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15521" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i have lurked here a bit lately, and though some of the math is unknown to me, found it interesting. i thought i would post an article i found in the saturday, april 17, 1993 toronto star: 'clipper chip' to protect privacy politics is of course dirty pool, old man, and here we have a classic example: the nsa and the administration have been working on this for a *long* time, and in parallel with the announcement to us techies, we see they're hitting the press with propoganda. it's my bet the big magazines - byte, scientific american, et all - will be ready to run with a pre-written government-slanted story on this in the next issue. ('just keep us some pages spare boys, we'll give you the copy in time for the presses') we *must* get big names in the industry to write well argued pieces against this proposal (can you call it that when it's a de facto announcement?) and get them into the big magazines before too much damage is done. it would be well worth folks archiving all the discussions from here since the day of the announcement to keep all the arguments at our fingertips. i think between us we could write quite a good piece. now, who among us carries enough clout to guarantee publication? phil? don parker? mitch kapor? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15522">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15522" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 ] > try reading between the lines david - there are *strong* hints in there ] > that they're angling for nren next, ] where? i honestly didn't see any... hint 1: : sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to : protect electronic funds transfer. it is now being used to : protect electronic mail and computer files. while encryption hint 2: : this new technology will help companies protect proprietary : information, protect the privacy of personal phone conversations : and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted : electronically. at the same time this technology preserves the : -- the privacy of our citizens, including the need to : employ voice or data encryption for business purposes; : -- the ability of authorized officials to access telephone : calls and data, under proper court or other legal : order, when necessary to protect our citizens; very big hint 3: # the administration is committed to working with the private # sector to spur the development of a national information # infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer # technologies to give americans unprecedented access to # information. this infrastructure of high-speed networks # ("information superhighways") will transmit video, images, hdtv # programming, and huge data files as easily as today's telephone # system transmits voice. very big hint 4: (see above) ## since encryption technology will play an increasingly important ## role in that infrastructure, the federal government must act ## quickly to develop consistent, comprehensive policies regarding ## its use. ] > and the only conceivable meaning of ] > applying this particular technology to a computer network is that they ] > intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption. ] i disagree, if for no other reason than that there are already other ] standards in place. besides, even if they restrict encryption on the nren, ] who cares? most of the internet is commercial anyway. the nren is only for ] geovernment and university research (read the proposals--it's a "data ] superhighway" for cray users, not anything having to do with the internet). oh, i see your point. i think you're wrong. but if you sit back and wait to find out if i'm right, it'll be too late. just listen *very* carefully for the first 'such and such will not be permitted on network xyz' shoe to 
</context>
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<instance id="sci.crypt15524">
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 nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip *must* have been under development for considerably longer than the 3 months that clinton has been president. this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest; it has been in the works for some time. i've got no doubts that this would probably have gone ahead if bush was still president. what's puzzling to me are the people who are apparently amazed that clinton is going along with it. other than that, mrs. lincoln, how did you like the play? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15526">
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 [ responding to claims about skipjack cracking engines ] thousands? tens of thousands? do some arithmetic, please... skipjack has 2^80 possible keys. let's assume a brute-force engine like that hypothesized for des: 1 microsecond per trial, 1 million chips. that's 10^12 trials per second, or about 38,000 years for 2^80 trials. well, maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond, and build a machine with 10 million chips. sure -- only 3.8 years for each solution. i think i should also point out that the mystical des engines are known plaintext engines (unless you add a ton of really smart hardware?) the 'plaintext' is digitized voice, and exists for a very short time, probably in a couple inches of copper, tops. it's flatly not available -- your bug in my office can hear my voice, and even digitize it, but it's going to get a different bitstream. it is horribly naive to suppose that regular folks can figure out how to crack skipjack, or clipper based telephones. i'm certainly not devoting a great deal of thought to it. andrew molitor 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15529">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15529" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the 'plaintext' is digitized voice, and exists for a very short time, probably in a couple inches of copper, tops. it's flatly not available -- your bug in my office can hear my voice, and even digitize it, but it's going to get a different bitstream. i am an idiot. the plaintext that's relevant is the session key. if you know that, you probably don't need a roomful of chips, do you? if you were going to brute force something interesting, that'd be the message stream, which is sort of approximately known by, say, a bug in my office. then your roomful of chips could get the session key. which i change every morning. really, it's just a whole lot easier for the illicit wiretappers to stick a bug in your phone. andrew molitor 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15530">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15530" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 | if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against | using other cipher systems on these phones, a new and potentially dangerous | class of crime is created. | criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications | (specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow | cite as threats) will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a | legitimate user, and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery | of compromise of the device will be delayed. yow - get some sleep brad! you mean that people (i.e. life-is-cheap terrorists & drug-dealing warlords) who want to communicate in privacy will prefer to break into my house, kill or kidnap me, and steal my telephone, rather than: - spending $15 at k-mart to buy a new phone. - purchasing a load of phones from the black market / flea market / super market. - talking (*gasp*) face-to-face. - walking down to any one of millions of pay phones. - using messengers. - going to excruciating effort to think of code phrases like "i had a blowout on the freeway today". look, this system does nothing to threaten folks who _know_ they're being wiretapped, since it's trivial to find other avenues of communication; they'd have no reason to resort to extreme measures, since a plethora of simple alternatives are easily available to them. among all the legitimate reasons to damn the proposed system, i don't think we need to worry about terrorist commie drug warlord assasin thugs murdering our families, kicking the dog and leaving the toilet seat up just to steal a $15 telephone. the system is more like urine testing: it catches some small number of very stupid people, has no effect on the "bad guys" with at least three neurons working in unison who wish to subvert it, and penalizes most heavily those who have no cause to be subject to it. steve hollasch kubota pacific computer, inc. hollasch@kpc.com santa clara, california 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15532">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15532" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the only way to view this method of generating unit keys is as a back-door. what else can you call a key deterministically generated from the serial to generate the unit key for a serial number n, the 30-bit value n is first padded with a fixed 34-bit block to produce a 64-bit block n1. s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple-encrypt n1, producing a 64-bit block r1: r1 = e[d[e[n1; s1]; s2]; s1] . similarly, n is padded with two other 34-bit blocks to produce n2 and n3, and two additional 64-bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed: r2 = e[d[e[n2; s1]; s2]; s1] r3 = e[d[e[n3; s1]; s2]; s1] . r1, r2, and r3 are then concatenated together, giving 192 bits. the first 80 bits are assigned to u1 and the second 80 bits to u2. the rest are discarded. the unit key u is the xor of u1 and u2. u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow what happens is that the need for the escrow houses is completely eliminated. or should i say, the need to _access_ the escrow houses to decrypt the data. the houses will still serve a real purpose as far as generating the illusion of protection, and small-town cops won't be let in on the "secret", so they will still go through the motions of going to the escrow houses, but the fact is __the federal government can and will build a chip which generates the unit keys from the encrypted serial number!__ 'nuff said. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15533">
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- why do we hackers care about the clipper chip? do we give a shit about anybody's privacy accept our own? and perhaps not even our own; are we so smart that we always know when we're talking to somebody who has a wiretap on their phone? i find this a very disturbing view! yes, we do care about everyone's privacy... even if "they" don't know it. what happens if the gov't starts creating legislation such that the clipper and such technologies become the only "legal" encryption forms? what happens when the clipper is the *only* type of encryption chips available to the masses? sure, you might have your own method of encryption, but if you don't have anyone else to talk to, what use is it? you can't assume that everyone will be as open as you appear to be about encryption. the point here is not the specific instance of the wiretap chip. rather, it is like having the government telling you that they want a copy of your house key, safe-deposit box keys, etc., and telling you that "they wont use them unless its totally neccessary." i sure wouldn't want that. why should encryption be any different? - -derek pgp 2 key available upon request on the key-server: pgp-public-keys@toxicwaste.mit.edu -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 +sjlcugzzxtcfxbrqif7mslp98p0evyynlzbboryvhfszyyhyheqqqilhek3lpqe ap29+od6yzrccharnrs024e= =ftek -----end pgp signature----- derek atkins, mit '93, electrical engineering and computer science secretary, mit student information processing board (sipb) mit media laboratory, speech research group warlord@mit.edu pp-asel n1nwh 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15534">
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 quoting pla@sktb.demon.co.uk in article <8aohonj024n@sktb.demon.co.uk>: you have every reason to be scared shitless. take a look at the records of mccarthy, hoover (j. edgar, not the cleaner - though they both excelled at sucking) and nixon. history does not record whether j. edgar hoover was any good at sucking. as for the cleaners, i'll stick with my 850w electrolux and damn the __ _____ \/ o\ paul crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \\ // /\__/ trust me. i know what i'm doing. \x/ fold a fish for jesus! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15536">
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 +>and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american +>to bear arms, why is not every american entitled, as a matter of +have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in +context? if not, please do so before posting this misinterpretation again. +it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia, not for individuals +to carry handguns, grenades, and assault rifles. hmmm, this could become a flame war very quickly. the text is "...well regulated militia..." when that amendment was written and approved, "regulated" meand "armed". remember all of those westerns where bounty hunters were called "regulators"? this is now an archaic usage of the word, but the original intent of the amendment was about weapons, not my $0.02. dan robinson 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15537">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15537" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :thousands? tens of thousands? do some arithmetic, please... skipjack :has 2^80 possible keys. we don't yet know if all 80 bits count. anyway, its looking like the keys and escrow arrangements are smoke and mirrors to cover the way the nsa can regenerate the key from the transmitted serial number. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15544">
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 i'm attempting to write a serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap (or "clipper") chip is a cost-effective tool for police investigation. that is, ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy, is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry, and their customers, to support this wiretap technology? a rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to u.s. law enforcement agencies. (in 1990, 872 u.s. wiretaps led to 2057 arrests, while total police expenditures of $28 billion led to 11.25 million arrests [ref us statistical abstracts].) i'm working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately, but i'd like to ask hardware experts out there to help me with estimating the costs of the new proposed wiretap technology. please send me quotable/citeable estimates for: - how many chips which would need to be made per year to keep all phones with wiretap chips? - how much would it cost to make each chip? - how much did it cost to develop this technology in the first place? - how much more would supporting hardware, people, etc. cost, per chip? - what percentage cheaper would encryption chips and support have been if private enterprise could compete to meet customer encryption needs? - what percentage of phone traffic would be taken up by the proposed "law enforcement blocks"? - what is the total cost of handling all phone traffic per year? put another way, the question i'm asking is, what if each police agency that wanted a particular wiretap had to pay for it, being charged their share of the full social cost of forcing communication to be wiretap compatible? would they choose to buy such wiretaps, or would they find it more cost-effective to instead investigate crimes in other ways? robin hanson hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov 415-604-3361 ms-269-2, nasa ames research center, moffett field, ca 94035 510-651-7483 47164 male terrace, fremont, ca 94539-7921 first, what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew/mission? second, this isn't a problem of economics. this is a problem of the incremental accumulation of police-state powers by our government. how, exactly, do you put a price on the loss of freedom of a society? maybe use the dollars/life lost calculations for the extra people killed by the gov. the pain and suffering cases for those tortured. the dollars/life lost caused by the inevitable collapse of the economy, and all the secondary effects of diseases, diet, etc. plus, the inevitable collapse of the economy as the gov controls it, becomes corrupt, etc. do us a favor. resign rather than right this paper for nasa. go do useful work for the society. lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15550">
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 after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip, any tactic is fair. this is pernicious nonsense! david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15552">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15552" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- in message <9304190956.aa10390@pizzabox.demon.co.uk> you write: : the cops/feds do *not* need to be able to get hold of your private key to : listen in to cellular conversations. encryption is not end-to-end, but : cellphone to base-station that was true for the uk paul, but i'm fairly sure they're talking about building end-to-end encryption phones out of this chip. it's *not* for cellular (though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest) i'd lost the white house's deathless prose when i posted (that's what happens when you read news at home when you're rat-arsed), but i did have a bunch of follow-ups going on about cellular/cordless comms. the original article has reappeared, so: the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law hmm, telephone communications could indeed include end-to-end encryption on ordinary landlines. the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links. but the next paragraph says telecoms networks and wireless communications ok, it's far from clear exactly what cripple (what an apposite anagram) will be applied to, but the reason joe public wants secure comms is to stop people listening in to his cellular or cordless phones (and he wouldn't even be bothered about that were it not for wingnut and squidqy's misfortunes). yes, cripple *might* be for end-to-end encyption, dropping to clear when the other end doesn't have cripple. but then a cordless-to-ordinary conversation would be in clear leaving the cordless end just as vulnerable as at present. nope, i suspect that cripple will only be used on radio ok, it's possible `telecommunications networks' could mean `ordinary phone lines', but i'm betting it means the microwave links used by the telcos. my apologies if i'm wrong, particularly if the turgid press release makes it clear that i'm wrong and i missed it, but as far as i can see it was full of obfuscation, and anyone expecting end-to-end encryption is in for a surprise (imho). btw, graham, i've posted questions to alt.security.pgp and not seen any replies/followups from outside europe - how about you? have i made it into everyone's kill file, or is there some problem? - --paul -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqcvagubk9spbmv14asak9pnaqgjbwp/zokyrm0gemlyysnj8bqoh8l8qljomrbo yb7p/vwvqbxyia6zdj5zkqsdep7x6ckidvdrz5cdis+onxtiothk3s3b3wjqbjcu vks8kov8gfg= =gvy0 -----end pgp signature----- 
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 <> here's a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable <> one: make it voluntary. <as usually, you are not reading. the proposal -does- say that it is a <"voluntary program". this doesn't make it more desirable, though... <> that is--you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree <> to escrow your key. otherwise you are on your own. <"secure"? how do you know? because nsa is trying to make you believe it? <"trust us." yeah, right. <"otherwise you are on your own"? how do you know that tomorrow they <will not outlaw encrypring devices that don't use "their" technology? <because they are promising you? gee, they are not doing even that - <read the proposal again. one minor nitpick: it is not a proposal. it is a *decision* ... from their point of view it is a done deal. the chips are being manufactured, it obviously has been budgeted, the whole thing. that is what is so upsetting. this was all done in secret. because they didn't want the people to know what was going on until it is too late. otherwise, i agree with you 100 percent. how come it always takes someone who has lived under the eastern bloc to remind us about how precious and fragile our liberties are? please, keep up the good work. hopefully you will wake someone up... <regards, <vesselin <vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg <tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn << pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c <e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15559">
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 i want to see an organization which will combat such statements. encryption does _not_ threaten the public safety, any more than ski masks do. every american _is_ entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is _not_ crippled by a key-escrow system. i guess i'm looking for a ``league for cryptographic freedom.'' or a ``national cryptography association.'' an excellent idea. to what extent does the eff serve this purpose? is a new organization necessary? does it already exist? while i don't know the full scope of the activities of the eff, from what little i've seen i think it would be better to lobby for strong cryptography through a distinct organization. the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities. horror stories about the contents of those groups (e.g. exploitative pictures of possibly underaged models) have already surfaced in the press. the white house bulletin already raised the specter of drug-dealing and terrorism, which is only one step removed from the old "crypto-wielding child molester" argument. an eff lobbying effort for cryptography would be too easily derailed by the connection to child pornography and the like. similarly, lpf is connected with stallman and his gnu project. in light of, say, the gnu manifesto, this means that in a public debate it stands to be labelled as "communist", "anarchist hackers", radical, etc. i don't know about cpsr, but if it is an offshoot of physicians for social responsibility (best known for helen caldicott and her hysterical antinuclear lobbying) then it probably also carries unwelcome political perhaps for practical reasons a lobbying organization for cryptography would best be formed under the umbrella of eff or some other existing group, but its charter should then be distinct, independent, and limited to advocacy for the right to cryptography. to reiterate dan bernstein's question: does any suitable organization exist? if not, what are you going to do about it? having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations, i would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction: gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first-amendment side. tal kubo@math.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15564">
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 proof windows is a virus:it is very widespread, it eats up your disk space, it slows down your computer, it takes control over your computer, it performs disk access at random times, it displays silly messages on your screen, it randomly crashes the computer-vesselin this sounds like a version unix. solaris? as someone who just lived through a switch from sunos4.x.x. to solaris, i'll heartily agree with this. obcrypt: one of my main gripes with solaris is its braindead mailx, which is -almost- enough like mail to get you hoping, but crashes horribly when you try to do anything useful with it. (like use pgp- capable sendmail replacements.) "i stood up on my van. i yelled, `excuse me, sir. ain't nothing wrong with this country that a few plastic explosives won't cure!'" - steve taylor, i blew up the clinic real good `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,` 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15566">
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 the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities. so what? justices william brennan, thurgood marshall, john paul stevens, and byron white are associated with a plurality supreme court decision that prevented the removal of "anti-american, anti-christian, anti-semitic, and just plain filthy" books from a public high school library [_board of education v. pico_ (1982)]. does this mean that they could no longer defend free expression and privacy? carl kadie -- i do not represent any organization; this is just me. = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15570">
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 the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities. so what? justices william brennan, thurgood marshall, john paul stevens, and byron white are associated with [...] it means that the eff's public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se. there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don't care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue (or may even disagree with the eff's position). ending up with pallets of baggage to drag around is a frequent problem with permanent organizations. eff is no exception. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15572">
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 [a list of large-integer arithmetic packages elided] i thought i would note that except lenstra's packages, none of the large-integer packages are in the public domain. as an alternative, a straightforward *pd* implementation of knuth's algorithms may be found as a part of uof arizona's icon distribution. with diligence, it is possible to make | electric: oz@sis.yorku.ca anything run slowly. --tom duff | ph:[416] 736 2100 x 33976 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15573">
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 thousands? tens of thousands? do some arithmetic, please... skipjack has 2^80 possible keys. let's assume a brute-force engine like that hypothesized for des: 1 microsecond per trial, 1 million chips. that's 10^12 trials per second, or about 38,000 years for 2^80 trials. well, maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond, and build a machine with 10 million chips. sure -- only 3.8 years for each solution. normally i'd be the last to argue with steve . . . but shouldn't that read "3.8 years for *all* solutions". i mean, if we can imagine the machine that does 1 trial/nanosecond, we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it. "shadwell hated all southerners and, by inference, was standing at the north pole." -- "good omens", by neil gaiman and terry pratchett 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15574">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15574" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do, why wouldn't it happen? not enough magtape. seriously, do you have any idea how much traffic flows through the us phone system in a single day? amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15575">
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 dwight tuinstra posts a very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police. actually, reading between the lines, it could be a very good thing for civil liberties in one respect, since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally. instead of reading between the lines, try to think a little bit. ok, if that's way too difficult to you, here are some hints. indeed, the new proposal imposes some additional burocratic burden on the local police, if they badly want to tape the magic cookie recipie that your mom is telling you on the phone. so, guess what they will do? propose that the new technology is removed? or implement some "facilitations"? of course, you won't want to wait until they get the approval from two different agencies to decrypt the conversation between two child molesters, because meanwhile those two child molesters might be conspiring about molesting your child, right? so, there should be some way for them to get access to those keys -quickly-, right? like, they could have a copy of the database, and worry about a warrant later... i perhaps should have been clearer and more concise in my post, but that's what i get from posting at 1 am... the central point i made is that local/state police agencies attempting to play by the rules and get warrants, legit escrowed keys, etc., may find themselves at the mercy of bureaucratic inertia and agency infighting at the federal level. i disagree that this would assist civil liberties by hobbling the cowboy cops. it would be a strong incentive, as vesselin points out, for more police agencies to "go rogue" and try to get keys through more efficient (but less constitutional) means. notice what the release said: q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device. what would they have to do to decipher the message? a: they would have to obtain legal authorization, normally a court order, to do the wiretap in the first place. the clear implication is that there are "legal" authorizations other than a court order. just how leaky are these? (and who knows what's in those 7 pages that authorized the nsa?). there may well arise a black market of sorts _within_ police agencies, in which keys are traded. furthermore, the police will be in an excellent position to carry out this kind of thing without being caught. they already have a communication infrastructure with secure portions. there are a few laws that i know of, that limit citizens' rights to access police communications (or use the information they get). it may be very difficult to prove police misuse -- the fact that you have such evidence may itself be evidence that you have broken some other law. throw in private detectives, who have even fewer policy/constitutional restrictions. also consider mercenaries who've "retired" from intelligence agencies. william gibson must be loving it. great story material. don't think it'll happen? well, consider e.g. the michigan state police, generally a very professional organization, which for years kept "red files" on thousands of suspected commies, knowing full well it was not consititutional. the standards of evidence were just about zero: people were in the file because they happened to park near a place where, say, a us-china people's friendship rally was happening -- the police went around writing down license plate numbers. if you happened to be visiting a friend who lived near the meeting place, well, the state police wound up filing you as a subversive. (they were eventually found out and a court ruled against carrying on any more such nonsense. i believe thay may have had to destroy the tapes as well.) even with well-meaning cops (and i'm sure there are many), there will be strong pressure to bend the constitutional safeguards. we don't need to assume corrupt or unbalanced officers -- it will all be in the interest of enforcing sensible laws, saving lives, and protecting property. compromises will be made by well-meaning officers, facing what (to them) will be a moral dilemma. clipper will make criminals out of cops. do we want to do this to our police forces? | dwight tuinstra best: tuinstra@sandman.ece.clarkson.edu | | tolerable: tuinstrd@craft.camp.clarkson.edu | | "homo sapiens: planetary cancer?? ... news at six" | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15576">
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 i wouldn't trust the nsa. i think i would trust the president on this, but i'm not certain he would be told. "i am not a crook." president richard m. nixon this president. (and i could easily be wrong.) arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15577">
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- so, don't just think of replacements for clipper, also think of front this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non-escrowed encryption schemes. otherwise, why not just use the front end without david, they (== the gov't) have already said that they hope to do this in the long run... - -derek pgp 2 key available upon request on the key-server: pgp-public-keys@toxicwaste.mit.edu -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqbuagubk9tkndh0k1zbsgrxaqeaqglfefnh9hlhyovhuwr5rwd9y+mbrxkykwsc aazo1x1wxhca5fg+uk9/tyyobpbtlqgsurgkgdzpxwfh8/+zxgxrggwf6wp2edst byccyb9jrx3lozcg5whgoi4= =8h7y -----end pgp signature----- derek atkins, mit '93, electrical engineering and computer science secretary, mit student information processing board (sipb) mit media laboratory, speech research group warlord@mit.edu pp-asel n1nwh 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15578">
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 chances are the government has thought of this, and "just anyone" won't be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a "fake" clipper once the chips are released (in phones, or whatever), they are vulnerable to phsyical inspection and observation. now, i will grant that there will no doubt be safeguards against "peeling" the chip, but the nsa has no monopoly on cleverness. the chip, and the algorithms it uses, will not remain secret for very long. any university with a vlsi lab has the required equipment, as does any offshore semiconductor manufacturer. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15582">
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 normally i'd be the last to argue with steve . . . but shouldn't that read "3.8 years for *all* solutions". i mean, if we can imagine the machine that does 1 trial/nanosecond, we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it. hmmmm. i think, with really large keyspaces like this, you need to alter the strategy discussed for des. attempt decryption of several blocks, and check the disctribution of the contents. i don't think it's at all feasible to keep 2**80 encryptions of a known plaintext block on *any* amount of tape or cd-rom. and certainly not 2**128 such encrypted blocks. (anyone know a cheap way of converting every atom in the solar system into a one bit storage device?) actually, a keysearch of this kind shouldn't be much worse than the simpler kind in terms of speed. it's just that you have to do it over for *every* encrypted message. dumb question: has anyone ever done any serious research on how many legitimate ascii-encoded 8-byte blocks there are that could be part of an english sentence? for attacking des in ecb mode, it seems like a dictionary of this kind might be pretty valuable.... --john kelsey 
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 1. american manufacturers peddling cripple chips with a secret untested algorithm whose keys are held by people with a history of untrustworthy behavoir, or er, excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren't yet chosen, how can you say they have a "history of untrustworthy behavoir[sic]"? i'm sure each of us can think of agencies without such a history. price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years, even in the face of an aggressive press. the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until publication. even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely. frankly, i'd trust the above (not the d of a, of course since they might be subject to political pressure) far sooner than the aclu, eff, or cpsr which, though not exactly government apologists, have no particular track record for internal security that i know of. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15585">
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 one thing that clipper offers is interoperability, at a higher degree of security than we currently have in non-proprietary voice encryption systems. this means it will be cheaper than anyone's proprietary scheme, and easier to i may be an anarchist nutcase, but i wouldn't have frothed overmuch had the government proposed a secure encryption standard. in fact, if the nsa had come up with a privacy chip rather than a wiretap chip, i would have been happy. they *could* have done this -- set up an ansi committee, picked a secure cryptosystem, defined a protocol and interface, and said, "hey, start building them." instead we have a deliberately brain-dead version of a cryptosystem that has not even been peer reviewed. yes, the nsa owns some smart people. but if they pulled a feal, well, at&t is going to be left with a lot of dud phones on its hands. perry said: someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography? can you tell me where exactly we have given up that right? heh heh. the government already gave it up for us. remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption? so much for clinton's support of the "right of privacy". pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail (void when prohibited) eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15589">
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 <if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against <using other cipher systems on these phones, a new and potentially dangerous <class of crime is created. aside from possession of "terrorist tools" (unapproved encryption devices or programs)... <criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications (specifically <the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats) <will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user, and <to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the <device will be delayed. <once a suitable collection of devices is stolen, criminals can communicate <with impunity (assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from <key escrow) until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means. <because life-is-cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal <very large and conspicuous property (luxury cars), it is reasonable to assume <that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous <property (a cipher cellular phone). just as we have seen in the past with <"blue box" technology, and in the present with modified cellular phones, <we can expect to see among high-stakes criminals a lucrative market for <stolen cipher phones which can be used for a few days. the high-stakes <criminals will pay the life-is-cheap types substantial amounts for stolen <instruments. <because a person is typically discovered as missing or dead in a few days, <a stolen instrument will be usable for only a few days. there will be a <continuing demand for fresh phones: fresh bodies. and since clinton is also going full-bore to deny unconnected citizens the means to defend themselves ("we will protect you ... 911 is good enough for you...") by perverting or trashing the second amendment, the targeted individuals will be guaranteed easy prey. what is a few bodies compared to the "greater good" of the fed being able to defeat a citizen's security with impunity? you don't think there doesn't exist a means by which the nsa can do their usual eavesdropping, scanning for keywords, with or without a court order or any 'keys', do you? if so, i got some great florida real estate you might be interested in... perhaps the idea of escrowed keys is meant to divert the discussion to how they will be safeguarded, and away from the basic fact that the government is systematically taking away our right to privacy, to be secure, for the means of self-defense, and just about every other right spelled out in the bill of rights? nawwww - they are the government! "trust us..." <in other words, clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn a <current inconvenience to law enforcement into a direct, vicious, and <persistent threat to the general public. what is more important to the government? law enforcement (people control) or the safety of the general public? the gun control issue should answer that one - look at how good that works in making cities safer: the places that are the worst in that regard are also the places with the 'best' gun control. government is not about public good, it is about control. never forget that. our founding fathers sure were concerned about it. < [ ... remainder deleted ... ] pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 [not very comprehensive list deleted] there is a very comprehensive list in sci.math.symbolic, which detailed descriptions of many packages. (especially you, mark, should update your list :-) ) here it is: available systems this is the list of currently developed and distributed software for symbolic math applications. no informations is supplied on systems no longer being supported like: saint, formac, alpak, altran, mathlab, sin, sac, camal, scratchpad, mumath, sheep, trigman, analitik, smp or ccalc. for more detailed info on any of the systems below, look into the directory pub/symbolic_math in the anonymous ftp of "math.berkeley.edu". no particular recommendation is made for any of these. if you want prices contact the company. programs are listed by (aprox.) the reverse order of the number of machines they run on, in each class, general purpose systems first. if you have any information to add to this list (we know we are missing mupad & felix) please send it to : ca@math.berkeley.edu paulo ney de souza department of mathematics university of california berkeley ca 94720 desouza@math.berkeley.edu general purpose maple:: type: commercial machines: most impressive list of machines i seen for a program: workstations (dec, hp, ibm, mips, sun, sgi, apollo), 386 pc's, mac, amiga, atari, at&t 3b2, gould, convex, ncr, pyramid, sequent, unisys and cray's. contact: maple@daisy.waterloo.edu waterloo maple software, 160 columbia street west, waterloo, ontario, canada n2l 3l3 phone: (519) 747-2373 version: 5 release 1 comments: general purpose , source available for most routines , graphics support in 5.0. a demo of the program for pc-dos can be obtained from anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu:/edu/math/msdos/modern.algebra/maplev.zip mathematica:: type: commercial machines: cray ymp down to mac's and pc's contact: info@wri.com, phone: 1-800-441-math wolfram research, inc. 100 trade center drive, champaign il 61820-7237 version: 2.1 comments: general purpose, notebook interface on next, mac, nice graphics. macsyma:: type: commercial machines: sun-3, sun-4 (sparc), vax (unix and vms), apollo, hp 9000, dec risc, pc386/dos, symbolics computers, 368/387 and 486 (no sx's) pc's. contact: macsyma-service@macsyma.com, phone: 800-macsyma macsyma inc, 20 academy st., arlington ma 02174-6436 version: depends on machine: 417.100 is the latest (for sun-4, hp, and dec risc), 417.125 for pc's comments: general purpose, many diverse capabilities, one of the oldest around. includes propietary improvements from symbolics and macsyma inc. descendant of mit's macsyma. doe-macsyma: type: distribution fee only machines: gigamos, symbolics, and ti explorer lisp machines. the nil version runs on vaxes using the vms system. the public domain franz lisp version, runs on unix machines, including suns and vaxes using unix. contact: estsc - energy science & technology software center p. o. box 1020 oak ridge tn 37831-1020 phone: (615) 576-2606 comments: help with doe-macsyma, general and help with issues such as obtaining support, new versions, etc: lph@paradigm.com leon harten from paradigm assoc. paradigm associates, inc. 29 putnam avenue, suite 6 cambridge, ma 02139 (617) 492-6079. maxima:: type: licence for a fee. get licence from estc before download. machines: unix workstations (sun, mips, hp, pc's) and pc-dos (beta). contact: wfs@rascal.utexas.edu (bill schelter) version: 4.155 comments: general purpose - mit macsyma family. common lisp implementation by william f. schelter, based on kyoto common lisp. modified version of doe-macsyma available to estsc (doe) sites. get the licence from estsc (phone: 615-576-2606) and then dowload the software from dos: math.utexas.edu:pub/beta-max.zip or unix: rascal.ics.utexas.edu:pub/maxima-4-155.tar.z currently their charge for 1 machine license is $165 to universities. site licenses are also available. aljabr:: type: commercial machines: mac's with 4meg of ram. contact: aljabr@fpr.com, phone: (508) 263-9692, fort pond research. 15 fort pond road, acton ma 01720 us version: 1.0 comments: mit macsyma family descendant, uses franz lisp. paramacs:: type: commercial machines: vax-vms, sun-3, sun-4, (sgi and mac's on the works) contact: lph@paradigm.com version: ??? comments: ??? vaxima:: type: distribution fee only machines: vax-unix contact: estsc (see doe-macsyma above) version: ??? comments: general purpose - mit macsyma family descendant. includes source and binaries with assembler for macsyma and franz lisp opus 38 reduce:: type: commercial machines: all unix workstations, a variety of mainframes, ms-dos/386/4mbyte and atari st. contact: reduce-netlib@rand.org version: 3.34 comments: general purpose form:: type: public domain verison 1 , version 2 commercial machines: msdos, atarist , mac, sun3, sun4/sparc, apollo, next, vax/vms, vax/ultrix , decstation , and others contact: t68@nikhef.nl (jos vermaseren) binary versions of version 1 are available by anonymous ftp from nikhef.nikhef.nl (192.16.199.1) version: 1 and 2. comments: general purpose , designed for big problems , batch-like axiom:: type: commercial machines: ibm rs 6000's and other ibm plataforms contact: ryan@nag.com, phone: (708) 971-2337 fax: (708) 971-2706 nag - numerical algorithms group, inc 1400 opus place, suite 200, downers grove, il 60515-5702 version: ??? comments: general purpose. simath:: type: anonymous ftp machines: suns, apollo dn and siemens workstations. contact: simath@math.uni-sb.de version: 3.5 comments: general purpose derive:: type: commercial machines: runs on pc's and hp 95's. contact: 808-734-5801 soft warehouse inc. 3615 harding ave, suite 505 honolulu, hawaii 96816-3735 version: 2.01 comments: said to be very robust, gets problems that other larger programs fail on. low cost. theorist:: type: commercial machines: mac's contact: prescien@well.sf.ca.us, phone:(415)543-2252 fax:(415)882-0530 prescience corp, 939 howard st #333, san francisco, ca 94103 version: 1.11 comments: general purpose , graphics , if you like the mac interface you'll love this , fixed precision ( 19 digits ), runs on smaller mac's than mma. mas:: type: anonymous ftp machines: atari st (tdi and spc modula-2 compilers), ibm pc/at (m2sds and topspeed modula-2 compilers) and commodore amiga (m2amiga compiler). contact: h. kredel. computer algebra group university of passau, germany version: 0.60 comments: mas is an experimental computer algebra system combining imperative programming facilities with algebraic specification capabilities for design and study of algebraic algorithms. mas is available via anonymous ftp from: alice.fmi.uni-passau.de = 123.231.10.1 mockmma:: type: anonymous ftp from peoplesparc.berkeley.edu machines: anywhere running common lisp. contact: fateman@cs.berkeley.edu version: ??????? comments: it does matematica (or i mispelled that!). weyl:: type: anonymous ftp from ftp.cs.cornell.edu /pub/weyl contact: rz@cs.cornell.edu version: 4.240 comments: intended to be incorporated in larger, more specialized flac:: type: ??? machines: ibm pc's (dos) contact: victor l. kistlerov, institute for control sciences, profsoyuznaya 65, moscow, ussr version: ??? comments: functional language group theory cayley:: type: cost recovery machines: sun 3, sun 4, ibm aix and vm machines, apollo, dec vax/vms, mac running a/ux 2.01 or higher and convex. contact: cayley@maths.su.oz.au phone: (61) (02) 692 3338, fax: (61) (02) 692 4534 computational algebra group university of sydney nsw 2006 australia version: 3.8.3 comments: designed for fast computation with algebraic and combinatorial structures such as groups, rings, fields, modules and graphs. although it began as a group theory system it has recently evolved into a general (abstract) algebra system. gap:: type: anonymous ftp (free, but not pd; basically gnu copyleft) machines: all unix workstations, atari st, ibm pc and mac contact: gap@samson.math.rwth-aachen.de ftp site: samson.math.rwth-aachen.de (137.226.152.6) & math.ucla.edu version: 3.1 (3.2 to be released dec 92) comments: group theory calculations. algebra & number theory pari:: type: anonymous ftp machines: most workstations, mac and next contact: pari@mizar.greco-prog.fr anonymous ftp to math.ucla.edu (128.97.64.16) in the directory /pub/pari version: 1.35 comments: number theoretical computations, source available, key routines are in assembler, ascii and xwindows graphics. pc-dos version available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu:/edu/math/msdos/modern.algebra/pari386 macaulay:: type: anonymous ftp machines: complete source available, binary mac versions available contact: anonymous ftp to zariski.harvard.edu (128.103.1.107) version: ??? comments: focused on algebra type computations ( polynomial rings over finite fields ), things like that. kant:: type: ??? machines: ??? contact: kant group prof. dr. m. e. pohst / dr. johannes graf v. schmettow mathematisches institut, heinrich-heine-universit\"at universit\"atsstr. 1, d-4000 d\"usseldorf 1 pohst@dd0rud81.bitnet or schmetto@dd0rud81.bitnet version: 1 & 2 comments: kant (computational algebraic number theory) is subroutine package for algorithms from geometry of numbers and algebraic number theory. there are two versions of kant: kant v1 is written in ansi-fortran 77, while kant v2 is built on the cayley platform and written in ansi-c. lie:: type: commercial machines: unix workstations (sun, dec, sgi, ibm), next, pc's, atari and mac's. contact: lie@can.nl, phone: +31 20 592-6050, fax: +31 20 592-4199 can expertise centre, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, the netherlands version: 2 comments: lie group computations ubasic:: type: anonymous ftp (ubas830.zip) machines: mac and ibm pc's contact: malm@argo.acs.oakland.edu, phone: (313) 370-3425 donald e. g. malm, department of mathematical sciences oakland university, rochester, mi 48309-4401 version: 8.30 comments: basic-like environment for number theory. in the collection of programs written for it one can find: malm (collection of ubasic number theory programs (malm.zip) by donald e. g. malm (and copyrighted by him), including: baillie-wagstaff lucas pseudoprime test, algorithm for chinese remaindering, elliptic curve method to factorize n, fermat's method of factoring, general periodic continued fraction to quadratic routine, evaluates carmichael's function & d. h. lehmer's method of solving x^2 = q (mod p). ubmpqs (prime factorization program for numbers over 80 digits (ubmpqs32.zip)), that can be found in the wurst archives (wuarchive.wustl.edu). numbers:: type: free but not public domain, registration required. machines: pc-dos contact: ivo dntsch phone: (++49) 541-969 2346 rechenzentrum fax: (++49) 541-969 2470 universitt osnabrck bitnet: duentsch@dosuni1 postfach 4469 w 4500 osnabrck germany version: 202c comments: numbers is a calculator for number theory. it performs various routines in elementary number theory, some of which are also usable in algebra or combinatorics. available in the anonymous ftp in ftp.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de in the directory /pub/msdos/math cocoa:: type: ??? machines: mac's contact: cocoa@igecuniv.bitnet version: ??? comments: computations in commutative algebra galois:: type: commercial machines: ibm-pc dos contact: cifeg inc., kalkgruberweg 26, a-4040 linz, austria version: ??? comments: algebra and number theory microcomputer written by r. lidl, r. w. matthews, and r. wells from the u. tasmania in turbo pascal v3.0. ganith:: type: anonymous ftp machines: any system with vanilla common lisp, x 11, and has at least a rudimentary lisp/c interface. contact: chanderjit bajaj & andrew royappa department of computer science, purdue university west lafayette, in 47907 (bajaj and royappa@cs.purdue.edu) version: comments: ganith is an algebraic geometry toolkit, for computing and visualising solutions to systems of algebraic equations. it is written in common lisp and c, and runs under version 11 of the x window system. ganith is available from the anonymous ftp at cs.purdue.edu in the file /pub/avr/ganith-src.tar.z tensor analysis schoonship:: type: ??? machines: ??? contact: mentioned in comp.phys. comm. 8, 1 (1974). version: ??? comments: i have heard this program mentioned , supposely it's designed for large problems (i.e. thousands of terms in series expansions ). developed at cern for cdc7600 ? stensor:: type: ???? machines: vax, sun, apollos, orion, atari & amiga contact: lh@vand.physto.se, lars hornfeldt, physics department, university of stockholm vanadisv.9, s-113 46, stockholm, sweden version: ???? comments: system for tensor calculus and noncommutative algebra lisp calculators jacal:: type: gnu copyleft machines: needs a lisp (either common or scheme) contact: available by anon ftp to altdorf.ai.mit.edu [18.43.0.246] version: ??? comments: an ibm pc version on floppy for $50 is available from aubrey jaffer, 84 pleasant st. wakefield ma 01880, usa. gnu-calc:: type: gnu copyleft machines: where emacs runs. contact: free software foundation version: ??? comments: it runs inside gnu emacs and is written entirely in emacs lisp. it does the usual things: arbitrary precision integer, real, and complex arithmetic (all written in lisp), scientific functions, symbolic algebra and calculus, matrices, graphics, etc. and can display expressions with square root signs and integrals by drawing them on the screen with ascii characters. it comes with well written 600 page online manual. you can ftp it from any gnu site. differential equations delia:: type: informal distribution machines: ibm pc's (dos) contact: a. v. bocharov, program systems institute, ussr academy of science, pereslavl, p.o. box 11, 152140 ussr, tlx: 412531 boat version: ???? comments: differetial equation computations pc shareware symbmath:: type: shareware, student and advanced versions. machines: ibm pc contact: chen@deakin.oz.au version: 2.1.1 comments: runs on plain (640k) dos machines. the shareware version is available in the file sm211a.zip on the wurst archives. more capable versions are available by mail-order from the cla:: type: anonymous ftp machines: pc-dos contact: ???? version: 2.0 comments: a linear or matrix algebra package which computes rank, determinant, rwo-reduced echelon form, jordan canonical form, characteristic equation, eigenvalues, etc. of a matrix. file cla20.zip on the wurst archives. xpl:: type: anonymous ftp machines: pc-dos contact: david meredith, department of mathematics san francisco state university san francisco, ca 94132 meredith@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu version: 4.0 comments: formerly called ccalc. well-integrated graphics and some (numerical) matrix manipulation routines. intended for calculus students. prentice hall sells this with a book (isbn 0-13-117441-x--or by calling 201-767-5937), but it is also available (without the manual but with a comprehensive help system) by anonymous ftp from wuarchive.wustl.edu: /edu/math/msdos/calculus/cc4-9206.zip. amp:: type: commercial, evaluation copy available by anonymous ftp machines: pc-dos contact: mark garber (71571,2006@compuserve.com) ph: (404) 452-1129 cerebral software, po box 80332, chamblee, ga 30366 version: 3.0 comments: the algebraic manipulation program (amp) is written in modula-2 and is a symbolic calculation tool. amp functions in an interpreter mode and program mode. it has tensor manipulation using index notation. the evaluation copy is available in the anonymous ftp at: ftp.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de:pub/msdos/math/amp30.zip mercury:: type: shareware machines: pc-dos contact: ??? version: 2.06 comments: limited in symbolic capabilities, but is extremely adept at numerically solving equations and produces publication quality graphical output. this used to be borland's eureka!, but when borland abandoned it, its original author started selling it as shareware under the name mercury. available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu:/edu/math/msdos/calculus/mrcry206.zip pfsa:: type: public domain machines: pc-dos contact: ??? version: 5.46 comments: available from the anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu:/edu/math/msdos/modern.algebra/vol546.zip lie:: type: public domain machines: pc-dos contact: head@rivett.mst.csiro.au (a. k. head) csiro division of materials science and technology melbourne australia or locked bag 33, clayton, vic 3168, australia phone: (03) 542 2861 telex: aa 32945 fax: (03) 544 1128 version: 3.3 comments: lie is a program written in the mumath language (not a package) for lie analysis of differential equations. available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu: /edu/math/msdos/adv.diff.equations/lie33 calculus:: type: shareware machines: pc-dos with ega contact: byoung keum, dept. of mathematics university of il. urbana, il 61801. version: 9.0 comments: program for calculus and differential equations. it has symbolic diff. & integration (simple functions), graphs. very unstable program - no reason to use it, except for price (suggested registration fee is $ 30.00). available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu: /edu/math/msdos/calculus/calc.arc \ / | marc conrad, universitaet des saarlandes \ luxemburg | marc@math.uni-sb.de france \| germany | these opinions are not necessarily these \x <---- you are here! | of the simath-group (and maybe even not mine). 
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 even more interesting: the smtp server at csrc.ncsl.nist.gov no longer recognizes the 'expn' and 'vrfy' commands... telnet csrc.ncsl.nist.gov smtp trying 129.6.54.11... connected to csrc.ncsl.nist.gov. escape character is '^]'. 220 first.org sendmail 4.1/nist ready at tue, 20 apr 93 17:01:34 edt expn clipper 500 command unrecognized seems like sombody didn't like your snooping around, marc. or mine. or the dozen or so other people who probably had the same idea :-) so does this rush to shut it down imply that some of the names on that list *are* heavy-duty spooks? :-))) 
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 actually, many of us have noted this. we have noted that the program started at least 4 years ago, that the contracts with vlsi technology and microtoxin were let at least 14 months ago, that production of the chips is well underway, and so forth. nobody i know has claimed clinton intitiated the program. but he chose to go ahead with it. perhaps the nsa realised that *no-one* would even contemplate falling for the dual-escrow bluff while under the bush administration and *had* to wait for a democrat govt to con into promoting this because people *might* just believe they were honest. (didn't work, did it? :-) ) 
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 the key question is whether non-clipper encryption will be made illegal. it seems pretty obvious that it will be made illegal if very loud noise is not made about this immediately to congress and the house! it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning's proposals are coming true. if the government continues on this course, i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal. encryption programs for disk files and email, as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications, will be distributed only through the "underground". people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy. i don't know what's worse - the waste of money, or the fact that (in spite of all clinton's rhetoric to the contrary) this is a feeble attempt by a large group of bored intelligence bureaucrats to justify their currently useless jobs. clinton said he was going to trim the fat from the government. this doesn't look very dietetic to me! as i said before in this group: drug dealing and terrorism both tend to be international crimes which are not going to cease if the us starts to regulate encryption. the drug dealers and terrorists will simply go to other countries to communicate their plans, and will still carry them out here and/or wherever else. this is not the solution to the problem. they try to invent a new problem by saying we "need" encryption. i guess it's a good thing bill gates isn't a 4-star general or we would all "need" our own copies of ms-dos too, right? und vee haff vays uff findink out iff you are usink doctor dos!! it's shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here. our health care and education systems are in the toilet and they come up with this pearl. if this goddamned government doesn't get a clue real quick and start trying to repair the infrastructure of the country rather than inventing someone to blame, germany and japan are going to eat the us alive, and we will deserve it. it's not like there's any shortage of real problems to solve, guys! a clipper chip is really going to help the homeless! a clipper chip is really going to help educate the children in the ghettos of our cities! just think of the generation gap that can be developed when they rehire dod engineer dad to work on clipper chips that will be used to decrypt slightly rebellious adolescent hacker son's naughty gif files! i can see the shitcom already. if that wasn't a forged post or a sick joke, i'm popping that dead kennedys tape into the car stereo and tearing ass to canada. clinton on white horse is near. it's the suede/denim secret police! they have come for your uncool niece! don't worry it's only a phone...shit, i knew i should have gotten some of those "consent to monitoring" stickers they keep on autovon phones when i had the chance. i should have known i'd need them in civilian life. redsonja@olias.linet.org \\\rs/// self possession is 9/10 of the law. alien: "we control the laws of nature!" | "how come when it's human, it's an joel: "and you still dress that way?" | abortion, but when it's a chicken, (mst3k#17 - gamera vs guiron) | it's an omelet?" - george carlin 
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 er, excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren't yet chosen, how can you say they have a "history of untrustworthy behavoir[sic]"? i refer to the federal law enforcement apparatus (which is ultimately in charge of this) generally. 
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 unrelated question...isn't the term "clipper," as neat as it is, already taken by intergraph? yes, "clipper" is a trademark of intergraph. its the risc chip used in some of thier workstations. i wonder what intergraph is going to do to this infringement on thier name sake? // jeff hyche -there can be only one- \\ // presto!random@uunet.uu.net \x/ 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15602" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : do you know of any freely distributable c++ (or c) code for public : key cryptography (such as rsa)? : i've tried various archie searches to no avail. have you heard of pgp? i assume from your post that you have not. pgp 2.2 is a freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities. most sites also keep the source code. a growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt (to a very high standard) their email and data. get it before clinton outlaws it. two of the many sites are: rsa.com /pub/pgp soda.berkeley.edu /pub/cypherpunks/pgp hope this helps, | jon saville | who alive can say, 'thou art no | | ee92jks@brunel.ac.uk | poet, may'st not tell thy dreams?' | ------------------------ ----------- keats, 1819 ----------- pgp 2.2 public key available upon request or by finger 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15603">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15603" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 excerpts from the clipper announcement, with some questions: -- the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data, under proper court or other legal order, when necessary to protect our citizens; q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device. what would they have to do to decipher the message? a: they would have to obtain legal authorization, normally a court order, to do the wiretap in the first place. they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers. the key is split into two parts, which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system. in these two sections the phrases `or other legal order' and `normally a court order' imply there is some other way or ways of doing a legal wiretap. what is/are these? how do they affect the way people who trust the system of court orders to protect them feel about this escrow system? the second section shows the sequence of events. the law enforcer, armed with his warrant, attaches his headphones to the line with his croc-clips (remember, these are the folk who couldn't cope with digital telephony) and hears a load of modem-like tones (we are talking analogue telephony here). what next? what modulation scheme do these clipper boxes use? is it possible to record the tones for use after the keys are obtained? i thought it was quite difficult to record a modem session at some intermediate point on the line. maybe they have taken a crash course in data comms and have a unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later. this would still suffer from the same problems as trying to record the tones as the demodulator would not be at one end of the line. if calls can't be recorded for decryption later it would be quite easy to foil the system by buying lots of clipper units (these are supposed to be cheap mass market items) and using them in turn. how tolerant is the modulation scheme to errors? these things are proposed for use by us corporations to secure their foreign offices, where phone line quality may well be poor. it seems hard enough to me to get digitised speech of any quality into something a modem can handle without having to add lots of error correction to keep the decryption in sync. q: will the devices be exportable? will other devices that use the government hardware? a: voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements. ... one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u.s. companies operating at home and abroad. with this in mind, we expect export licenses will be granted on a case-by-case basis for u.s. companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad. this raises an intersting question in the uk. here it is illegal to connect anything to a public telecomms network without it being approved by a body called babt. it has been stated, either here or in the uk.telecom group, that they will not approve equipment that does encryption. i don't know if this is true or not, but this would make a good test case. perhaps `friendly' countries, and the uk may still qualify, will get to fish in the escrowed key pool as well. peter ilieve peter@memex.co.uk 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15605">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15605" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it would be a strong incentive, as vesselin points out, for more police agencies to "go rogue" and try to get keys through more efficient (but less constitutional) means. notice what the release said: q: suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device. what would they have to do to decipher the message? a: they would have to obtain legal authorization, normally a court order, to do the wiretap in the first place. the clear implication is that there are "legal" authorizations other than a court order. just how leaky are these? (and who knows what's in those 7 pages that authorized the nsa?). there i was a cryptologic tech in the us navy (ctrsn, nothing big). all 'spooks' in the navy are required to know the "gist" of "ussid 18", the navy-way of naming a particular presidential "executive order". it outlines what spooks can and can't do with respect to the privacy of us nationals. the following information is (of course) unclassified. the whole issue hangs about what you mean by "wiretap". if the signal can be detected by "non-intrusive" means (like radio listening), then it may be recorded and it may be "analyzed". "analyzed" means that it may be either deciphered and/or radio-location may be used to locate the transmitter. the catch is this: any and all record of the signal and its derivatives may only be kept for a maximum of 90 days, after which they are destroyed unless permission is obtained from the us attorney general to keep them. didn't you ever wonder how coast guard cutters *find* those drug-runners in all those tens of thousands of square miles of sea, even in the dark?!? rick miller <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <ricxjo@discus.mil.wi.us> ricxjo muelisto send a postcard, get one back! | enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion! rick miller // 16203 woods // muskego, wis. 53150 // usa 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15606">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15606" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : it means that the eff's public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant : to the encryption issue per se. there may well be people who care about : the encryption issue who don't care to associate themselves with the : network erotica issue (or may even disagree with the eff's position). perhaps these encryption-only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted? these issues are not as seperable as you maintain. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15610">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15610" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if there are many as..., er, people in the usa who reason like the above, then it should not be surprising that the current plot has been allowed to happen... the willingness of the majority of the people to give up their freedom in exchange for a sense of safety is hardly limited to the usa, and is an endemic problem in any human society of any appreciable size. the structure of the us government does try to combat this tendency to some extent, but fighting entropy is always a losing battle. most people would rather have comfort than freedom. the paradox is that you can't really have the former, in the long term, unless you have the latter. one of the reasons that i probably come across to some people as a weird cross between a libertarian and an "establishment tool" is that i end up taking an utterly pragmatic view of government. i don't get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people, because in my lifetime it never has--therefore, i have no expectation that it will. as a result, i protect my own interests rather than expecting the government to be "fair". i will use strong cryptography when i think it is needed, whether or not it is legal at the time. same thing with anything else the government would rather not see in private hands--that's their problem. what's important to me is using the right tool for the job. if it's legal, so much the better. if it is not, but does not violate my (very strong) sense of personal ethics, i will use it anyway as long i think it is worth it. expecting the government to actually protect the interests of its citizens, except by accident, is utter folly. even jefferson, one of the major architects of the american system of government, figured that in a couple hundred years it would become so corrupt and self-serving that it would be time dismantle it and try again, by revolution if necessary. i agree, and while i don't go around trying to spark one, i'll certainly participate if it happens when i'm around. there is a reason i am such a strong supporter of individual rights while being so cynical about politics. i've already written off politics. and yes, this may get me in trouble some day. if so, so be it. i drive faster than 55 mph, too. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15611">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15611" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : 1) monitor my phonecalls. : 2) monitor usenet. : 3) provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack. : 4) etc etc. : this is not to say that they *don't*, they might. but you don't : know that they do, and you have no evidence that they do, for almost : all values of you. it follows, therefore, that for most values of 'you', : your claims about the nsa border on paranoia. : andrew now i wouldn't be the one to claim that you are injecting some disinformation into the net, andrew, but 'paranoia' refers to unwarranted or excessive suspicions or fear, not those that have reasonable roots. let's start with looking at the professionals, the nsa itself. its birth was by secret executive order by harry s truman in 1952. until even 1976 not even one word of this executive order chartering the nsa was sealed. paranoia, right? on the outside of the nsa complex is a ten foot cyclone fence with multiple rows of barbed wire, with high voltage, complete with signs prohibiting even making sketches under penalty of the internal security act. the area is completely scanned by closed circuit television. more paranoia. these are professionals, maybe they know something we don't, eh? do you think it would have helped admiral yamamoto if the japanese had been a little more 'paranoid' of their purple cipher? or maybe the germans should have been a little more 'paranoid' about their engima with respect to turing and the british. how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram? would a little more paranoia have helped the germans here? maybe the nsa should have been a little more 'paranoid' about emma woikin, or joseph sidney petersen, jr., or ... maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley's japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn's the codebreakers.. paranoia, right? the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one-time pad, even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about, is known to be the only proven unbreakable system. soviet paranoia, right? and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers? and huge rhombics pointed embassy row? and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites? duh. when i worked in a classified mitre communications lab at one time even with a "secret" clearance i had to be escorted to the toilet and the entire site was built into a mosler-type vault with *very* thick bomb-proof door. mitre paranoia? i could cite probably a hundred more facts which all support, as best hypothesis, the notion that the nsa is grabbing as much as it can, as fast as it can. one would be a fool to ignore the pattern of facts and conclude that they were random... and we know the government is violent -- even against children as recent events prove. judge william sessions is a disgrace but a solemn warning to those who ignore the web of evidence that our government institutions have in their contempt for our civil rights. and of course we have to err somewhat on the excessive side of caution because that does much less harm than erring on the reckless side. as member of the crew of the uss liberty might aver. i might suggest, andrew, that you read kahn's codebreakers and bamford's puzzle palace and come back with some more facts to support your sheepish acquiescence to authority. grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15612">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15612" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it seems likely to me that that a large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and a warrant is obtained. i can even imagine this being found legal and constitutional, since nothing is actually listened to until a valid warrant is issued and the keys are obtained. imagine archiving all pay-phone conversations, so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer, you can listen to all their past drug deals. and archive calls to/from suspected mafia members, potential terrorists, radicals, etc. imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year. imagine if this were available during the 1992 elections; instead of clumsily searching through the clinton passport file, they could have just done a "voice-grep" (as someone stated earlier) on his telephone conversations for the last 10 years. i'm not a lawyer and i don't even play one on tv, but intuitively there's something wrong with having one's words archived for possible future use against you. this possibility frightens me more than any of the talk about the clipper chip, right to cryptography, etc. since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do, why wouldn't it happen? i'm afraid it just might. nina h. yuan "it's a miracle that curiosity harvard college survives formal education." yuan1@husc.harvard.edu - albert einstein 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15613">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15613" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 [a lot of this article has been deleted for space.] look! this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications. if this madness isn't fought, tooth and nail, every step of the way, it'll be a crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so *graciously* define for us. the clipper standard *is* the first step toward outlawing other strong encryption standards. if the government didn't intend to outlaw other forms of encryption, than clipper is just a big waste of time and money. why, you ask? because anyone who is transferring data that any government agency could use against him/her would be a total fool to use the clipper system..so why add the backdoor-key if all lawbreakers will use alternate encryption methods? because they assume they can just do away with everything i, for one, am planning on boycotting any equipment that contains clipper technology. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15614">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15614" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 and some people thought that i am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just a first step in a totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa... it seems that i've even been an optimist - the things are happening even faster than i expected.... that's another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime - do something secret, then tell the people about is (after the fact, when nothing can be done any more), and of course, explaining them how much better the situation is now... in my previous messages i wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal. now it seems to me that it is already too late - it has already happened, the civil liberties have been violated, no, stollen from the american people, while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily... :-((( too sad... as one of the happily sleeping people, i would just like to ask this-> aren't people just slightly overreacting to this? or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia? the point of the matter is that; yes this is a serious problem. but it is not the end of the world. guess what? we're doing something now you can't do in a communist country or nazi germany. we're complaining about it, (or rather, you're complaining about it) and nobody is shooting at us. (or, rather, if they're shooting at me, they have real bad aim. (:-) ) guess what people? you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at. people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong, or somebody did that wrong, or whatever. sit down and figure out two things: 1) what have they done right? 2) how much worse can it get? and you'll find that you and i, are pretty damn lucky. so let's talk about it, get some action going, decide what's going on. but let's not overreact! vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center, university of hamburg tel.:+49-40-54715-224, fax: +49-40-54715-226 fachbereich informatik - agn < pgp 2.2 public key available on request. > vogt-koelln-strasse 30, rm. 107 c e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de d-2000 hamburg 54, germany jerry han-crc-doc-div. of behavioural research-"jhan@debra.dgbt.doc.ca" ///////////// these are my opinions, and my opinions only. \\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\ a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band //////// "memories of those i've left behind, still ringing in my ears."-genesis- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15616">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15616" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? a good vocoder like ours will give you 8000 bits per second locked at full rate (it's a variable rate voice activity vocoder). if you want less quality, cut that to 4000 bps (half rate). at full rate variable you could put two full-duplex conversations on a v.32bis modem. this requires a dsp or asics, though. an rs-6000 has a cpu that could probably do it in real-time, because it has the add-and-multiply instruction and a few other dsp things. if you want to do speech in real-time you need about 4000 samples a second (for not very good voice) with your 8 bit samples (isdn is 8000 8-bit samples a second), which is 32 kbps. you could do a fast 2:1 compression on that to get it down to 16 kbps, which is just about v.32bis. the quality at this point is very bleah, but it should work. now add in the time for your encryption method. you're going to need sampling hardware, which is no problem on a new mac, an amiga. or a pc with a soundblaster card (just because they're so popular and cheap - you could also build a simple adc). the problem with the soundblaster is that it doesn't seem to be full duplex - you can't sample and play backq at the same time, making a two-way conversation a bit tough. the special hardware or a more capable sound card may be the only thing that worries me is that 2:1 compression - the soundblaster can do it automatically in hardware, but other than that i don't have a good feel for how processor intensive it is, so i can't estimate how fast a pc you'd need. not all men who drink are poets. some of us drink because we are not poets. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15617">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15617" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until how are you sure of that? weren't there some recent studies that found corelations between not-yet announced decisions and market changes? aren't there continuing early rumors of their deliberations? even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely. sheesh! remember the big scandal a year or two (or 3?) ago about exactly such leaks? vernon schryver, vjs@sgi.com 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15618">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15618" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 this isn't intended to be a flame or anything, i am just really curious how to manufacture these things while still maintaining the key escrow security without simply saying "trust the manufacturer, they won't look". without getting into the *really* *thorny* questions about reverse engineering and all of that, let me just point out that there already exist gate arrays and suchlike that have what's known as a security fuse which can be programmed after you've verified all other programming -- this makes it impossible to read out the programming of the device (again, ignoring the reverse engineering questions). speaking from experience here: i had to completely reinvent one of my designs some six or seven years ago when the disk file was zapped, the backups were all bad, and the devices were unreadable because of the security fuses. made me appreciate the value of printouts. ;-) so on this point at least there's not so much worry. but whether or not we can get the chips made reliably and securely is really secondary to the question of whether use of the chip is itself likely to be secure, methinks. robert bickford "a hacker is any person who derives joy from rab@well.sf.ca.us discovering ways to circumvent limitations." rab'86 "i recognize that a class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves 'hackers', but i consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word; just as the mafia calls themselves 'businessmen' but nobody pays that fact any attention." rab'90 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15623">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15623" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 do you know of any freely distributable c++ (or c) code for public key cryptography (such as rsa)? i've tried various archie searches to no avail. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15624">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15624" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :if the clinton clipper is so very good, why not make its algrithm public :so many people can exchange ideas and examine it, rather than a few :isolated 'respected experts' (respected by whom? for what? perhaps a one more time... if they released the algorithm, it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical, but lacking an escrowed key. note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system. in this case security means "an escrowed key for every clipper chip". assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm, and the escrow system, which would you buy : (a) chip from firm a with the escrowed key (b) second source chip from reputable firm b with no key in government escrow. there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for a second source, non escrowed, vendor. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15635">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15635" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 agreed. this is like the bay of pigs fiasco (planned by the eisenhower administration but given the final green light by kennedy). to be sure, hen it all went down, kennedy was at least man enough to take full responsibility, which is not what i expect from slick willie clinton.... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15637">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15637" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 remember that they've promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design. i hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware. while i doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point -- they have to expect that the chip will be reverse-engineered sooner or later -- it's an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes. --steve bellovin pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15638">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15638" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations, i would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction: gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first-amendment side. hmmm, this gave me an interesting idea. how about this argument: 1) second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms. 2) strong cryptography is "arms", according to the u.s. government (that's why it's so hard to export). therefore, we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography! q.e.d. [. . .] maybe the nra _would_ be the best existing organization? i think a new organization would be a much better idea, as the nra carries as much undesireable baggage for me as the eff and cpsr do for others. are any hot-shot, reputable organizers reading this message? if an effective group comes into existence, it can count on me signing up. -- george mitchell (george@tessi.com) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15639">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15639" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 however, it's likely to be as hard or harder to exercise this right as it is getting to exercise the other rights that the government is slowly restricting. maybe the nra _would_ be the best existing organization? (although i think a new one might be better, but perhaps would take too to start up. i would certainly join.) the nra is successful because (among a number of things), on the drop of a hat, they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards, faxes and phone calls. certainly, with our way-cool internet powers of organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate. as long as we are kept informed of events, anyone on this bboard can make a call to action. hopefully, we're a strong enough community to act on those calls. i realize this is a little optomistic, and i'm glad eff is working in the loop on these issues, but don't underestimate the potential of the net for political action. * i speak for myself 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15642">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15642" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 whatever happens though, the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like a sore thumb. only if this chip catches on. which means alternatives have to be developed. which will only happen if clipper is discredited. tony lezard is tony@mantis.co.uk | pgp 2.2 public key available from key or tony%mantis.co.uk@uknet.ac.uk | servers such as pgp-public-keys@demon.co.uk or even arl10@phx.cam.ac.uk | 172045 / 3c85783f 09bbea0c b86cf9c6 7a5fa172 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15645">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15645" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? note: i am *not* a cable freak, so i might have completely misunderstood what you said. also, my math is frequently noted for being wrong, so you'll better check the calculations yourself. i assume that 14.4k means 14.4k bits. so if we assume one start and one stopbit, and no protocol overhead, the effective number of bytes per second is 1.44k. let's also assume that you do not want to transmit your speech in stereo, so that you can send 1,440 samples/sec. this corresponds to a nyquist frequency of 720 hz, which should be too low, especially if you think about the 8-bit low quality sound. furthermore, your d/a converter will probably not present you with a signal that has been cut off at 720 hz, but will instead alias in all the higher frequencies. (although you can definitely build a filter to overcome that problem.) on the other hand, speech should be easily compressible. for example, you could form power spectra, or you could simply band-pass filter and then linearize the fourier transforms. it won't be cd quality sound, but it'll be discernible. the power spectrum method is very good in that respect. i have once programmed such a software compressor, and compression rates of 90% with relative errors due to linearization of less than 5% were common. although i must say that these were musical sounds, not speech. have fun. stephan <neuhaus@informatik.uni-kl.de> sig closed for inventory. please leave your pickaxe outside. pgp 2.2 public key available on request. note the expiration date. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15646">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15646" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :if the clinton clipper is so very good, why not make its algrithm public :so many people can exchange ideas and examine it, rather than a few :isolated 'respected experts' (respected by whom? for what? perhaps a one more time... if they released the algorithm, it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical, but lacking an escrowed key. note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system. in this case security means "an escrowed key for every clipper chip". assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm, and the escrow system, which would you buy : (a) chip from firm a with the escrowed key (b) second source chip from reputable firm b with no key in government escrow. there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for a second source, non escrowed, vendor. but what about second sources for pin-compatible non-clipper algorithm chips that also have escrowed keys? if a "reputable firm" produces a chip (with escrowed key) that is a pop-in replacement for the clipper chip in my phone, and uses an algorithm that is widely known and evaluated and "trusted," then what's the problem? the clipper is going to be reverse engineered anyway by any organization with sufficient resources (can you say "billions of cocaine dollars?") so those drug dealers they're so worried about will be slipping through the cracks. we law-abiding (non-incredibly-wealthy) citizens, naturally, will not have this recourse. but claiming that the algorithm can't be released to prevent people from using non-key-escrowed chips is plain deceitful... analysis of the chip output will provide information on the necessary headers and whatnot, so the "bad guys" could build chips using a *different* algorithm and still not escrow their keys. or, they could just buy bunches of cheap phones at k-mart every week, and play swap-the-clipper-chip with their cellular phone every day. michael t. palmer | "a man is crazy who writes a secret in any m.t.palmer@larc.nasa.gov | other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server | from the vulgar." - roger bacon, 1220-1292 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15647">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15647" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 as for my impressions of the whole scheme it seems that instead of trying to ban strong crypto, they are trying to co-opt it. their contention that they need to keep the algorythm secret to protect the security of the key registration suggests possible inherent weakness to the algorythm. more likely is that they dont want anyone constructing black market devices which dont have the keys registered. anyone else notice that in their q&a session, they preventing black market chips w/non-escrowed keys is exactly what they mean by protecting the security of the key escrow system. there are two parts to the security of such a system: (a) preventing decruption by unauthorized personel (b) assuring that the gummit can always decrypt clipper traffic when it authorizes itself to do so. of course, the ministry of propoganda will do a lot of tallking about (a) and very little about (b). rob boudrie rboudrie@chpc.org ps: anyone care to guess what encryption scheme the gov't is using on its newly formed database of anarch-cryptists who oppose this entire 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15648">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15648" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish, but there are certainly exceptions. if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon, it is classified. as i understand the law, nuclear weapons design is _automatically_ classified even if you do the work yourself. i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper. this has now been thrown out by the courts. (the "progressive" case.) a less serious example: if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into, you can be fined, even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman. the charge is interfering with a police officer, which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip. this is outright illegal. it does violate the first amendment. if you would, give a case in which your "speed trap" example has been upheld by the courts. arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15651">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15651" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 here's a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one: make it voluntary. that is--you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key. otherwise you are on your own. as an economist, i'm sure you can see the flaws in this logic. if the (naive) market is flooded with proprietary, but weak, encryption, then truly strong encryption will be unable to compete. suppose the govt had a secret tv broadcast standard, and then sold tvs below cost. private industry has a better standard, but it's not as widespread due to the govt early flooding of the market with cheap proprietary sets. even though the industry's technology is better, the programming is being broadcast to the govt's unduplicatable standard. who could compete? the other flaw, of course, is that making something voluntary today ensures that it will be voluntary in the future. i went to renew my ca drivers license last week and was required not only to give my ssn, but to produce an ssn card to veryify the number! note that a federal law once said that no state or local govt could ever require the use of ssns for drivers license registration (specifically!). i do not trust the govt that says "trust me on this even though we could have an arrangement that doesn't require your trust." something is big time fishy. if you look more carefully, you'll see it. | mel beckman | internet: mbeckman@mbeckman.com | | beckman software engineering | compuserve: 75226,2257 | | ventura, ca 93003 | voice/fax: 805/647-1641 805/647-3125 | |______________________________|_______________________________________| "you can observe a lot just by watching." -yogi bera 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15652">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15652" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it might be nice to: 1. cut out the ad hominem attacks on prof. denning, mr. sternlight, etc. if you have something objective to say about their views, go ahead and say it (subject to point 2.). personal attacks reflect more on the attacker more than on the attackee. throw light, not heat! 2. restrict the discussion to appropriate newsgroups. i submit that comp.org.acm and comp.org.ieee are not appropriate for this discussion. you have now made subscribers to these newsgroups aware of the issue. if they want to know more or participate in the discussion, they can easily join sci.crypt, comp.security.misc, alt.security, or comp.org.eff.talk. ...russ schnapp email: netcom!metaflow!rschnapp or rschnapp@metaflow.com or rschnapp@bix.com metaflow technologies voice: 619/452-6608x230; fax: 619/452-0401 la jolla, california unless otw specified, i`m speaking only for myself! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15654">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15654" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the chip and algorithm are classified. if you reverse engineer it and tell people, you are likely to go to jail. i don't find this a credible argument, for two reasons. one you have supplied below: unless i care about entering the usa at any time in the future (eg. the taiwanese backyard cloners - who btw have been known to decap custom silicon and reproduce it on daughterboards when pirating high-profit arcade machines and the like - who wouldn't care less), i am not going to care much about us confidentiality, am i? only people like the real me, who does care about travelling to various countries for business reasons, will sit up and follow laws like this, but i would contend that we're not the main threat. i also have grave doubts whether an algorythm widely distributed in silicon could possibly be called "classified." it's like handing out military secrets to the whole world in envelopes marked "don't open me." i can imagine several credible defences which could be employed if it came to a trial. one would be the stupidity of the government's actions. perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa. the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware, but a software implementation should be practical. amusing thought: could they have employed an algorythm which is infeasable for a fast software implementation, but which is easy in custom hardware? in des, the extensive use of permutation tables (trivial in hardware: you just swap bus lines), but relatively slow in software have had a big effect on the speed difference between hardware and software implementations of that cipher (indeed, i suspect that lucifer's designers were well aware that it would be, and approved.) certain algorythms (usually parallel search algorythms) can be very slow in software, yet can fly in custom hardware. i have no proof of their employment in clipper -- it is pure conjecture. however, as a software implementation of this cipher is something that its designers would have been trying to avoid at all costs, then the inclusion of such techniques seems credible. hmmm... i also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name "clipper" for this device. :) ian farquhar phone : + 61 2 805-9400 office of computing services fax : + 61 2 805-7433 macquarie university nsw 2109 also : + 61 2 805-7420 australia email : ifarqhar@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15655">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15655" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip, and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread. any back- doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme, and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative. i must admit that this point has been running through my mind for most of the discussion: one the dice are out there, it won't be long before someone decaps it and, after a bit of work, has full details of the clipper algorythm. this isn't trivial to do, but then again, it is not impossibly difficult either. any half way decent vlsi design student should be able to take a photograph of a technology s/he is familiar with, and given a description of the input, output, control and supply lines, figure out the function of various subsystems on the die. indeed, this is not an uncommon exercise performed during training (because it makes you think about design decisions made by other designers. i could speculate that these chips are going to be manufactured using "tamperproof" carriers (unlikely - such techniques are *very* expensive and this thing is supposed to be relatively cheap to produce), or that there will be some legal or legislative framework to prevent publication of the algorythm (unlikely - please correct me if i am wrong but aren't these supposed to be sold internationally?). i suppose that the most likely reason the algorythm is remaining secret for the moment is that some idiot bureaucrat, untrammeled by the realities of the situation, decided that "well, we should keep it a secret because it is supposed to be secret, isn't it?" just some random thoughts... ian farquhar phone : + 61 2 805-9400 office of computing services fax : + 61 2 805-7433 macquarie university nsw 2109 also : + 61 2 805-7420 australia email : ifarqhar@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15657">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15657" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i guess the cryptowranglers read this group too. but of course i knew that because it is so easy to do. there is not a single doubt in my mind that every byte that passes every significant gateway or 'bone is captured for the colligation of data about __________? (maybe your name is here). i really like these claims. where did they come from? we hear, practically daily, that the nsa monitors, oh, everything. they can crack anything. they'd never release a cryptosystem they couldn't crack. where do people get these fascinating facts? 'the puzzle palace'? if you can get it for a buck, 2nd hand, it must be true, eh? i'm pretty sure the nsa is supposed to, among many other things, provide high-quality cryptosystems to a variety of places. i don't recall reading anywhere reliable that they're supposed to: 1) monitor my phonecalls. 2) monitor usenet. 3) provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack. 4) etc etc. this is not to say that they *don't*, they might. but you don't know that they do, and you have no evidence that they do, for almost all values of you. it follows, therefore, that for most values of 'you', your claims about the nsa border on paranoia. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15659">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15659" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 methods. ``this year's crime bill will have teeth, not bare gums,'' clinton said. in particular, his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols, and require the registration of so-called ``cryptographic keys,'' in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret. clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity, such as ``the deficit-causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren.'' and some people thought that i am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just a first step in a totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa... it seems that i've even been an optimist - the things are happening even faster than i expected.... that's another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime - do something secret, then tell the people about is (after the fact, when nothing can be done any more), and of course, explaining them how much better the situation is now... in my previous messages i wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal. now it seems to me that it is already too late - it has already happened, the civil liberties have been violated, no, stollen from the american people, while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily... :-((( too sad... i'm definitely going to write my congressman, and nobody's ever going to make me respect a law that violates my freedom of speech, and if the feds try to enforce this law on me, i will protect my freedoms, with force if it ever comes to that. (hopefully, it won't) doug holland | doug holland | anyone who tries to take away my freedom | | holland@cs.colostate.edu | of speech will have to pry it from my | | pgp key available by e-mail | cold, dead lips!! | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15660">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15660" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 agreed. remember, i don't even think of clipper as encryption in any real sense--if i did, i'd probably be a lot more annoyed about it. i agree with this assessment. furthermore, its promotion as providing greater protection than bare voice is quite true, as far as it goes. however, the only way for it to fulfill its stated goal of letting le wiretap "terrorists and drug dealers" is to restrict stronger techniques. wiretap targets presently use strong encryption, weak encryption, or (the vast majority) no encryption. the latter two classes can be tapped. with weak encryption in every phone, the no-encryption class is merged into the weak-encryption class. will the introduction of clipper cause targets presently enjoying strong privacy to give up on it? that is, to rely for privacy on a system expressly designed to deny it to people like them? i doubt it. the mere introduction of this scheme will give the government *nothing*. the stated goal of preventing the degradation of wiretapping capabilities can be fulfilled by restriction of domestic cryptography, and only by this restriction. "clipper" appears to be no more than a sop, given to the public to mute any complaints. we would find this a grossly inadequate tradeoff, but i fear the public at large will not care. i hate to even mention gun control, but most people seem to think that an `assault weapon' (as the nyt uses the word) is some sort of automatic weapon, .50 caliber maybe. who wants to have such a thing legal? well, people know even less about cryptology; i suspect that strong cryptography could easily be labeled "too much secrecy for law-abiding citizens to need". that's not for clinton (or anyone under him) to say, though. only the federal and supreme courts can say anything about the constitutionality. anything the administration or any governmental agency says is opinion at what they say is opinion, but what they do is what matters, and will continue unless overturned. and the courts are reluctant to annul law or regulation, going to some length to decide cases on other grounds. furthermore, congress can get away with quite a bit. they could levy a burdensome tax; this would place enforcement in the hands of the batf, who as we've seen you really don't want on your case. they could invoke the commerce clause; this seems most likely. this clause will get you anywhere these days. the 18th was required because the supreme court ruled a prohibitory statute unconstitutional. in 1970 congress prohibited many drugs, with a textual nod to the commerce clause. the controlled substances act of 1970 still stands. i think the government could get away with it. amanda walker pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15661">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15661" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i don't get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people, because in my lifetime it never has--therefore, i have no expectation that it will. just to make sure everyone is clear on this: "it never has" refers to "protects", not "fails to protect"; i.e., in my lifetime i have never seen the u.s. government consistently protect the interest of u.s. citizens, except by accident. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15662">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15662" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 wouldn't a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks? it would be in a different location, so a directional antenna could probably lock in on just the one monitor. failing that, a phased array could likely seperate the signals. admittedly, this is expensive, but so is all the rest of this stuff anyway. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15663">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15663" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 thousands? tens of thousands? do some arithmetic, please... skipjack has 2^80 possible keys. let's assume a brute-force engine like that hypothesized for des: 1 microsecond per trial, 1 million chips. that's 10^12 trials per second, or about 38,000 years for 2^80 trials. well, maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond, and build a machine with 10 million chips. sure -- only 3.8 years for each solution. normally i'd be the last to argue with steve . . . but shouldn't that read "3.8 years for *all* solutions". i mean, if we can imagine the machine that does 1 trial/nanosecond, we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it. at the company i worked for previously, i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it, went on vaction. rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time. it only took two(2) days to crack the file. no, i don't have any faith in des. a.g. a.g. russell dept a06s oltp section of pals group vm id sc39093 at ausvm1 email arussell@austin.ibm.com phone 512-838-7953 tieline 678-7953 these are my views, on anyone else they would look silly. free the berkeley 4.4 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15665">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15665" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 one thing that clipper offers is interoperability, at a higher degree of security than we currently have in non-proprietary voice encryption systems. this means it will be cheaper than anyone's proprietary scheme, and easier to probably cheaper than you think. i'll bet some of my (and yours) tax dollars become a subsidy for these chips. if these chips don't sell well, what's to stop the us government from 'giving' them away (in the interest of national security)? deploy. this is, of course, either a bug or a feature depending on how you look at it :). amanda walker intercon systems corporation steven p. holton network administrator - rtp fast northern telecom, inc. replies to: cmsph02@nt.com on bounce: [ sholton@aol.com | 70521.2430@compuserve.com ] "opinions expressed here are my own." 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15668">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15668" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 fishing expeditions without the target's knowlege. don't give up the right to be safe from that - that should be non-negotiable, and clinton and co. know it (which is probably why they quietly developed this thing, figuring if they get it this far, they can ram it on through). it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn't possibly have initiated. this chip had to take *years* to develop, yet already we're claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us. bullshit. the *bush* administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror, and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as a fait accompli. that doesn't excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it, but let's lay the body at the proper door to start with. you are so correct - clinton did not initiate it. he just cast it in granite by implimenting, not stopping the decision. i also stated in another post i don't give a damn what administration does it, i still find it totally unacceptable, and whoever impliments it or rams it down our throats ought to be run out of office. also, bush was not trying to deprive us of our second amendment rights. clinton is busting his butt in that regard. that reveals a total difference in philosophy. clinton appears to support the idea of total people control. eavesdropping whenever they feel like it, no real security for the common person, and no ability to defend oneself against illegal attack, from whatever source. "trust us, we will protect (and control) you... if we don't find it inconvenient..." clinton has also shown his utter contempt for public disclosure and accountability, as well. he had plenty of time to change the policy. he didn't. he expanded on it. i bet had bush been in office, you would be in there howling louder than i. pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15670">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15670" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 here is a revised version of my summary which corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation. the clipper chip: a technical summary dorothy denning revised, april 21, 1993 on april 16, the president announced a new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in a voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement. at the heart of the plan is a new tamper-proof encryption chip called the "clipper chip" together with a split-key approach to escrowing keys. two escrow agencies are used, and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct a key. chip contents the clipper chip contains a classified single-key 64-bit block encryption algorithm called "skipjack." the algorithm uses 80 bit keys (compared with 56 for the des) and has 32 rounds of scrambling (compared with 16 for the des). it supports all 4 des modes of operation. the algorithm takes 32 clock ticks, and in electronic codebook (ecb) mode runs at 12 mbits per second. each chip includes the following components: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number (this length is subject to change) u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the chips are programmed by mykotronx, inc., which calls them the "myk-78." the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc. they are implemented in 1 micron technology and will initially sell for about $30 each in quantities of 10,000 or more. the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to .8 micron. encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used, imagine that it is embedded in the at&t telephone security device (as it will be). suppose i call someone and we both have such a device. after pushing a button to start a secure conversation, my security device will negotiate an 80-bit session key k with the device at the other end. this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip. in general, any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie-hellman public-key distribution method. once the session key k is established, the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m (digitized voice). the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values: e[m; k], the encrypted message stream, and e[e[k; u] + n; f], a law enforcement field , which are transmitted over the telephone line. the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n, all encrypted under the family key f. the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed. the ciphertext e[m; k] is decrypted by the receiver's device using the session key: d[e[m; k]; k] = m . chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif (secure compartmented information facility), which is essentially a vault. the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips. about 300 chips are programmed during a single session. the scif is located at at the beginning of a session, a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault. agent 1 enters a secret, random 80-bit value s1 into the laptop and agent 2 enters a secret, random 80-bit value s2. these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers. thus, the unit keys are a function of 160 secret, random bits, where each agent knows only 80. to generate the unit key for a serial number n, the 30-bit value n is first padded with a fixed 34-bit block to produce a 64-bit block n1. s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple-encrypt n1, producing a 64-bit block r1: r1 = e[d[e[n1; s1]; s2]; s1] . similarly, n is padded with two other 34-bit blocks to produce n2 and n3, and two additional 64-bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed: r2 = e[d[e[n2; s1]; s2]; s1] r3 = e[d[e[n3; s1]; s2]; s1] . r1, r2, and r3 are then concatenated together, giving 192 bits. the first 80 bits are assigned to u1 and the second 80 bits to u2. the rest are discarded. the unit key u is the xor of u1 and u2. u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow as a sequence of values for u1, u2, and u are generated, they are written onto three separate floppy disks. the first disk contains a file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u1. the second disk is similar but contains the u2 values. the third disk contains the unit keys u. agent 1 takes the first disk and agent 2 takes the second disk. thus each agent walks away knowing an 80-bit seed and the 80-bit key parts. however, the agent does not know the other 80 bits used to generate the keys or the other 80-bit key parts. the third disk is used to program the chips. after the chips are programmed, all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave. the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind. the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two. the first two would provide the seeds s1 and s2, and the second two (the escrow agents) would take the disks back to the escrow agencies. the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined, but they will not be the nsa, cia, fbi, or any other law enforcement agency. one or both may be independent from the government. law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line, they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line. let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip. the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key f, giving e[k; u] + n. documentation certifying that a tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number n is then sent (e.g., via secure fax) to each of the key escrow agents, who return (e.g., also via secure fax) u1 and u2. u1 and u2 are xored together to produce the unit key u, and e[k; u] is decrypted to get the session key k. finally the message stream is decrypted. all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder. capstone: the next generation a successor to the clipper chip, called "capstone" by the government and "myk-80" by mykotronx, has already been developed. it will include the skipjack algorithm, the digital signature standard (dss), the secure hash algorithm (sha), a method of key exchange, a fast exponentiator, and a randomizer. a prototoype will be available for testing on april 22, and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july. acknowledgment and distribution notice. this article is based on information provided by nsa, nist, fbi, and mykotronx. permission to distribute this document is granted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15673">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15673" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 a rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to u.s. law enforcement agencies. (in 1990, 872 u.s. wiretaps led to 2057 arrests, while total police expenditures of $28 billion led to 11.25 million arrests [ref us statistical abstracts].) i'm working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately, but you seem to be assuming that all arrests are of equal value, and that the use of wiretaps is spread uniformly among them. given this comparatively tiny number of wiretaps, and the associated difficulty and cost involved (judges, technicians, etc) i expect that law enforcement reserves the use of wiretaps for the most valuable cases. since the "value" of an arrest can vary over an enormous range (eg. jaywalking -> mass murder) i think your $5 million estimate may be too low by a couple of orders of magnitude. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15678">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15678" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 clipper might be a good way to cover the use of another layer of could somebody provide an overview of the proposed systems using the chip? (ought to see if att has a spec sheet) skipjack sounds like a normal digital encryption algorithm, so the data path will have to be voice --> digitize --> compress --> encrypt compression will be necessary to fit the data on the wire, unless they want to wait for isdn (that we should be so lucky...). feeding pre-encrypted data into the compressor will cause it to chuckle at you; you'd have to tap into the guts of the phone and hack either the compressed data stream, or selected parts of the output stream before it hits the modem. unless you want to pay for two fast modems on top of the encryption, and just plug the box in between your phone and the wall. pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15682">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15682" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i am *completely* baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this. she hasn't. dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues, and something won in this manner is not easily lost. her support of the clipper -- no matter how unpopular that position may be -- serves far more to enhance the clipper's respectability than to diminish her own. :: jeff makey department of tautological pleonasms and superfluous redundancies department disclaimer: all opinions are strictly those of the author. domain: makey@visicom.com uucp: nosc!visicom!makey 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15683">
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 from denning: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip e[m; k], the encrypted message stream, and e[e[k; u] + n; f], a law enforcement block. where the session key is k, and is transmitted encrypted in the unit key u. which along with the serial number n is encrypted in the family key f. presumably the protocol can be recovered (if by nothing else, differential analysis). postulate if you will, a chip (or logic) sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel. the function of this spoof chip is twofold: 1) transmit channel the spoof chip xors the 30 bit encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable. this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the family key 2) receive channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable (assuming integrity of the law enforcement block is necessary for local operation - checksums, sequence control, etc.). this has the net result of hiding the serial number. it is probable theere is a known plaintext pattern used as a filler in the block containing n (34 bits as used in generating u, u1,u2) correctness of the law enforcement block can be determined with only the family key f. whereas, no one has proposed federal agencies be denied f, and because they could recover it themselves, the correctness of the serial number can be tested by examining the pad bits of n in e[n; f]. the one could selectively alter the law enforcement block as above, but the mutilation could be detected. a better approach would be to mutilate the entire law enforcement block. if it were done with a group encryption scheme such as des or (presumably) skipjack, the chances the law enforcement block can be recovered are lessened. what do you want to bet the transmission protocol can be recognized and the serial numbers decrypted in a target search? when digital transmission becomes widely available, would there be a requirement that clipper protocol transmissions be refused when containing mutilated law enforcement blocks? one way to avoid notice, would be to spoof protocol information of the block containing m, as well as spoofing the law enforcement block. the goal is to use a secure communications scheme, without redress to detection or key k interception (contained encrypted within the law enforcement block). the data stream is returned to its original state for use by the clipper chip (or system) if required, for proper operation. it is somewhat improbable that the entire protocol will be contained within the clipper chip, yet likely that sequence of events will be tested for, requiring a valid law enforcement block to be received before accepting and decrypting e(m; k); the spoof chip could be implemented anywhere in the protocols, including on the resulting serial data stream. existing clipper products could be subborned. after all, they are high security encryption systems right? super encipherment/encryption could allow the chip to be used without redress to detection of the use of the chip, or disclosure of the serial number. security must be adequate to deny the serial number, which should not be recoverable by other means. one can see the use of cut outs for procurring clipper phones, or once the number of units is high enough, stealing them. it would be a mistake on the part of authority, but nice from a point of privacy, if the serial number n were not associated with a particular clipper chip or lot of chips through the manufacturing and distribution process. hopefully the list of known missing or stolen clipper serial numbers n encrypted with f, and the protocols are not sufficient plaintext to attact the super encrypted clipper stream. this could be further made difficult by altering the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream to that of the super encrypted detection of an encrypted stream could tip off the use of the aforementioned if you could capture valid law enforcement blocks not your own, and use them in a codebook sustitution with your own, where they point to a valid law enforcement block stored in a library utilizing a session key matching the remainder of the transmission, you could simply out and out lie, yet deliver to monitoring and/or hostile forces a seemingly valid law enforcement block. these captured law enforcement blocks would be used as authenticators, such as in a manually keyed encryption system. fending this off would require escalation in examining the protocols and blocks in the transmission. the m code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext. this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper m stream and the actual transmitted stream, under the control of a secure key generator synchronized between endpoints. the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception. you would need a large number of them, but, hey there's supposed to be millions of these things, right? adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical, who wants an encryption chip with a real time clock? the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated. 
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 the clear implication is that there are "legal" authorizations other than a court order. just how leaky are these? i don't have the wiretap statute handy. but here's what the law says on pen registers. this is all from title 18 of the u.s. code. note how vague s. 3125(a)(1)(b) is.... i haven't had a chance to check out 50 u.s.c. 1801 yet. 18 usc s. 3121 pen registers (as of 4/93) s. 3121. general prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use; exception (a) in general. except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the foreign intelligence surveillance act of 1978 (50 u.s.c. 1801 et seq.). s. 3125. emergency pen register and trap and trace device (a) notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter , any investigative or law enforcement officer, specially designated by the attorney general, the deputy attorney general, the associate attorney general, any assistant attorney general, any acting assistant attorney general, or any deputy assistant attorney general, or by the principal prosecuting attorney of any state or subdivision thereof acting pursuant to a statute of that state, who reasonably determines that-- (1) an emergency situation exists that involves-- (a) immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury to any person; (b) conspiratorial activities characteristic of organized crime, that requires the installation and use of a pen register or a trap and trace device before an order authorizing such installation and use can, with due diligence, be obtained, and (2) there are grounds upon which an order could be entered under this chapter to authorize such installation and use "may have installed and use a pen register or trap and trace device if, within forty-eight hours after the installation has occurred, or begins to occur, an order approving the installation or use is issued in accordance with section 3123 of this title." (b) in the absence of an authorizing order, such use shall immediately terminate when the information sought is obtained, when the application for the order is denied or when forty-eight hours have lapsed since the installation of the pen register or trap and trace device, whichever is earlier. (c) the knowing installation or use by any investigative or law enforcement officer of a pen register or trap and trace device pursuant to subsection (a) without application for the authorizing order within forty-eight hours of the installation shall constitute a violation of this chapter. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15687">
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 imagine archiving all pay-phone conversations, so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer, you can listen to all their past drug deals. and archive calls to/from suspected mafia members, potential terrorists, radicals, etc. imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year. since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do, why wouldn't it happen? apart from the storage and search requirements, because the evidence is inadmissible: wiretaps require a warrant. and as soon as one such case comes to light, all previous cases are likely to be discovered, and thrown out. there was an article in the ny times a few months ago about how many convictions in the state might be invalidated because they relied on pen registers -- and the court of appeals ruled that pen registers were equivalent to wiretaps, and hence required warrants under new york law. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15691">
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 in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish, but there are certainly exceptions. if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon, it is classified. as i understand the law, nuclear weapons design is _automatically_ classified even if you do the work yourself. i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper. hate to mess up your point, but it is incredibly easy to learn how to make a nuclear weapon. the hard part is getting the radioactives to put in it. have you ever read tom clancy's _the sum of all fears_? it describes in great detail how a palestinian terrorist group constructed a nuclear bomb using stolen (actually found) plutonium, with some help from an east german nuclear physicist. for some non fiction, read tom clancy's article _five minutes till midnight_. it shows how a terrorist group could construct a nuke using neptunium, a low grade radioactive waste product dumped in toxic waste sites and forgotten about. he also claims information on constructing a nuke is easily found in any large library. sounds kind of scary, doesn't it? :-( a less serious example: if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into, you can be fined, even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman. the charge is interfering with a police officer, which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip. don't tell me that you think this violates the constitution -- find some court cases which have struck down such laws. many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them. don't know whether you could get busted for warning of a speedtrap. doug holland | doug holland | anyone who tries to take away my freedom | | holland@cs.colostate.edu | of speech will have to pry it from my | | pgp key available by e-mail | cold, dead lips!! | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15692">
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 chances are the government has thought of this, and "just anyone" won't be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a "fake" clipper chip. chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at a very high level, and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level. assume in this case the usual canard-adversary of narcotraficantes. they probably have more cash than the kgb did, and they're probably more generous at handing it out. it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys, and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse-engineer the chip (unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective). brad yearwood brad@optilink.com {uunet, pyramid}!optilink!brad petaluma, ca 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15694">
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 : 1) monitor my phonecalls. : 2) monitor usenet. they may collect the data, but making sense of it is another matter. on sci.crypt i'm a graduate cs major (with strong math background) and experienced programmer taking a cryptology course. (<< keyword for alleged nsa filters). on sci.skeptic i'm an ex-physics major who's a new-age flake, talking about silly things like how a person's expectations colors what he on talk.religion.newage i'm a physics geek who enjoys squashing interesting idea with wasp science, although i do write occasional posts showing a minimal knowledge of zen, mythology, etc. i could go on, but i'm sure you see my point. i'm a single person, but i react differently on different groups (admittedly, in part because i'm a contrarian you always shouts "but, on the other hand..."). on top of that, i _loath_ certainty and have taken public positions in the past for no reason other than to challenge "conventional wisdom". i wish them luck in figuring out who "i" am based on that information. (they can probably figure out i'm liberal, with a technical degree but humanistic interests, from a common thread throughout my posts. but that describes a fair portion of the users of internet). bear giles bear@cs.colorado.edu/fsl.noaa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15696">
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 finally, because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments, there will exist strong motivation to record and archive _all_ communications in the network for ex-post-facto scrutiny (once some criminal act is discovered, and the instruments involved have been identified). "all" is a *very* big number. the at&t long distance network has around 20,000 t3 trunks (45 mbit/sec), which is on the order of 10**12 bits/sec. that doesn't even count the amount of traffic in the local phone companies, or our long-distance competitors. it's about 200 exabytes tapes / second, which is pretty large even for the nsa :-) on the other hand, i can easily see them recording the traffic for "interesting" people, such as dissidents, suspected criminals, foreign telephone calls, and anybody noticed using encryption. as ken shiriff speculates, recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon .... # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15697">
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 (the date i have for this is 1-26-93) note clinton's statements about encryption in the 3rd paragraph.. i guess this statement doesen't contradict what you said, though. --- cut here --- washington (upi) -- the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start, president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington. in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural, clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war ``would make everything so far seem so half-hearted that for all practical i just found out from my source that this article was a joke. heh heh.. it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start -- i just didn't notice the smiley at the end of the article, and there were a few other hints which i should of caught. anyway -- i guess this 'joke' did turn out to resemble clinton's true feelings at least to some extent. sorry about that... andersom@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15698">
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 just a little nitpicking. wasn't it the government that required a standard railway gauge ? didn't that improve things ? please don't misunderstand. i'm utter suspicious of this clipper chip. why hold the design top secret ? was this a work around the law that says that any discoveries made by people working for the government is public domain. ( e.g. nih class library, etc. ) des has its designs published all over the place and it is considered fairly strong ( although could be stronger ). 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15700">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15700" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms? i know des is 56 bits ("tripple des" is 112 bits) and idea is 128 bits. is there anything made in the us that has 128 bit keys? anything anywhere that has larger keys? i've heard that rc2 can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys, but is this actually implemented anywhere? my mdc cipher (which uses any one-way hash function as a cfb-mode stream cipher, the current implementation uses md5) uses a key of up to 2048 bits (that is, you can use a 1-bit key if you want and copy it over the entire 2048-bit range, or you can use the entire 2048 bits). runtime is independant of key size, the system runs slightly slower than md5 itself. i presume rc2 and rc4 use a similar system (or possibly they just hash an arbitrary-length key down to n bits, maybe 128, using something like md5). 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15701">
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 i just found out from my source that this article was a joke. heh heh.. it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start -- i just didn't notice the smiley at the end of the article, and there were a few other hints which i should of caught. people took this article seriously? i mean, i know it's the net and all, but the prankster didn't even have clinton's sound-bites rita rouvalis rita@village.com 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15703">
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 i am most embarassed that my irrate, intemperate post is still i have been chided by experts for my behavior. i now agree with all of them, although some were no more restrained in their speech than i was 8) i have apologized to robin hanson. lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15704">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15704" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? it's all easy with a dsp. the olivetti quaderno, for example [*great* 1kg subnotebook/palmtop pc -- sorry for the plug, folks, but olivetti don't seem to be doing a good job marketing it themselves :-)] includes sound digitisation hardware; they provide vocoders for their dsp which produce varous bit-rates. there's one which gives pretty acceptable voice quality at 13kbit/sec, just right for a v.32bis modem. their dsp can play and record at the same time, too -- so you wouldn't need to play "two-way-radio". you can also download code to the dsp subunit, though you'd need a software development kit for the dsp in question [dunno which it is...] if you wanted to produce your own vocoder for, say, v.32 speeds. \ paul ducklin duck@nuustak.csir.co.za / / csir computer virus lab + box 395 + pretoria + 0001 s africa \ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15705">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15705" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hmmm. we must assume that generating the unit key u from the serial number n rather than generating it from a randomly selected u1 and u2 is an intentional way of assuring a "fail safe" for the government -- u is completedly determined given s1, s2 and n. if s1 and s2 do not change, even if they remain secret i wonder if they can somehow be back-derived given enough unit key/serial number pairs. [...] maybe 300 such pairs suffice to reconstruct s1 and s2? by such a back- door (in the encryption algorithm perhaps) it would be possible (for the manufacturer) to get the keys of all chips that were programmed in one session. this would not, btw, enable anybody else to retrieve the keys in the same way because they'll never get a bunch of 300 (n,u) pairs with identical s1 and s2. (note that these have to be constant for the whole batch by the very nature of the procedure, i.e., they have to be typed in manually by the `random number supplying agents'!) and i was wondering why they'll always do 300 chips in one session ... since the procedure described by ms denning imposes high costs on the production of every chip (at least three persons for one hour each, plus the cost of a laptop finally blown to pieces in a spectacular, hollywood-like bonfire; add travelling expenses, drinks and lighting, divide the sum by 300) there won't be a larger demand -- not from the private sector anyway. and let me mention one other thought that certainly has occurred to all the notoriously paranoid people in this group before: who is going to verify that _no_ interested party will perform tempest attacks on the vault?? where there's so much smoke and mirrors -- there can't be a nice, honest fire but something really worth hiding ... detlef lannert dc3ek e-mail: tsos@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de pgp 2.2 key via server or finger lannert@clio.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de "i am psmith." - "oh, you're smith, are you?" - "with a preliminary p. which, however, is not sounded." p.g.wodehouse 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15707">
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 wouldn't a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks? we've got a tempest receiver in the lab here, and there's no difficulty in picking up individual monitors. their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies. even where they overlap, you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies - you can lock in on one and average the others out. the signals are weird in any case, with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building. just moving a folded dipole around is also highly effective as a (randomised) means of switching from one monitor to hell, just set up a spark jammer, or some other _very_ electrically-noisy device. or build an active farrady cage around the room, with a "noise" signal piped into it. while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment, they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition, at best. there is, of course, the consideration that these measures may (and almost cretainly will) cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems. it's a matter of balancing security versus convenience. btw, i'm an ex-air force telecommunications systems control supervisor and telecommunications/cryptographic equipment technician. remember waco! who will the government decide to murder next? maybe you? [opinions are mine; i don't care if you blame the university or the state.] 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15708">
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 the recent discussion in this news group suggests that a key search attack against des is quite feasible now. but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses a random init vector of 8 bytes. questions: - makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key? then we have a 56 + 64 = 120 bit key. - if yes: is anything known about the security of this key scheme? can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the 120 bit key space? klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes-gutenberg-universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse 69, w-6500 mainz, germany 
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 [article deleted] just doing a quick reality check here - is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people? it sounds more like the sort of thing you'd have heard, suitably rephrased, from the leader of a certain german political party in the 1930's.... it sounds like a joke (but then the war on drugs has always been a joke...). ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15710">
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 and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms, why is not every american entitled, as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context? if not, please do so before posting this misinterpretation again. it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia, not for individuals to carry handguns, grenades, and assault rifles. read the constitution yourself. the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, so a well regulated militia may be more easily formed. i have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms. if you want, i can e-mail it to you. by the way, gun talk belongs in talk.politics.guns. doug holland mr. ward, before you start blathering about your skill "interpreting" the constitution, it might be helpful to learn to read. after a review with a high school english teacher emphasizing participial phrases, you might start with the second amendment, and follow it up with: 97th congress, 2nd session, committee print, *the right to keep and bear arms*, of the subcomittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary, united states senate, 97th congress, second session, february, 1982. gpo no. 88-618-o this authoritative, heavily researched and annotated document clearly turns your "interpretation" into specious claptrap, which is a polite way of saying utter bullshit. in spite of your false assertion to the contrary, the second amendment does protect the right of the individual citizen, in his capacity as an individual, to keep and bear arms. and, mr. holland, imho, blatantly and harmfully false information, asserted as fact and globally distributed, deserves globally distributed rebuttal in the forum in which it is posted. (and besides, this site doesn't carry t.p.g...:-) harryb%phred@data-io.com phred!harryb@data-io.com no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. --thomas jefferson 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15711" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : 1) monitor my phonecalls. : 2) monitor usenet. : 3) provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack. : 4) etc etc. : this is not to say that they *don't*, they might. but you don't : know that they do, and you have no evidence that they do, for almost : all values of you. it follows, therefore, that for most values of 'you', : your claims about the nsa border on paranoia. : andrew or maybe the germans should have been a little more 'paranoid' about their engima with respect to turing and the british. how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram? would a little more paranoia have helped the germans here? maybe the nsa should have been a little more 'paranoid' about emma woikin, or joseph sidney petersen, jr., or ... maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley's japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn's the codebreakers.. paranoia, right? the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one-time pad, even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about, is known to be the only proven unbreakable system. soviet paranoia, right? and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers? and huge rhombics pointed embassy row? and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites? duh. grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f one case of slovenian paranoia. once upon a time a tried to walk over the (famous) marathon field, not far away from athens. i could not do that mostly becouse the field is now a huge antenna farm. probably a greek comint installation, would you agree? borut b. lavrencic, d.sc. | x.400 :c=si;a=mail;p=ac;o=ijs;s=lavrencic j. stefan institute | internet:borut.b.lavrencic@ijs.si university of ljubljana, | phone :+ 386 1 159 199 si-61111 ljubljana, slovenia | pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15713">
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 if "i forgot" doesn't have as much credibility as you'd like, consider this alternative. somewhere on the hard disk, duplicated a few times, keep a 128-bit random number. when the 128-bit digest of your passphrase is computed, it is xorred with the random number before being used as the key for your hard disk. writing random junk over the random numbers makes the hard disk unreadable by anyone. now, if you were merely to *claim* that you have written random junk over the xor key, no-one would be able to tell whether or not you were telling the truth. this is (a) perjury, and (b) vunerable to rubber-hose cryptography, but otherwise effective. __ _____ \/ o\ paul crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \\ // /\__/ trust me. i know what i'm doing. \x/ fold a fish for jesus! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15715">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15715" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 (regarding nsa monitoring of us military code traffic) [btw, folks, nsa wasn't being given the keys. and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems, the kgb didn't need them either.] on the contrary- the walker spy case is one where the kgb was given keys (as i recall) allen j. baum apple computer baum@apple.com, abaum@armltd.co.uk 
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<answer instance="sci.crypt15716" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i'm quite astonished, shocked, and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms. the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography. to do so is tantamount to regulating `acceptable' speech, and is blatantly unconstitutional. perhaps we should rename this year `1984' in honor of such an illustrious proposal. let the crappy chip live in infamy, and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure. imho, encryption is (also) protected under the second amendment of the constitution of the united states. i am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures. the u.s. government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this, and i call on everyone with an interest in a sensible government to resist and defy this proposal. the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely a subservient instrument to implement the will of the public, and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty. i am not surprised that this administration is doing this. i could have told you so. cryptography is neutral technology. if everybody has strong cryptography (including policemen, bureacrats, businessmen, housewives, thugs and hoodlums), we have a sustainable equilibrium. anything less is an unworkable anti-egaltarian arrangement, intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms, and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality. we don't need to compromise on issues of freedom. privacy has always been something that has the effect of restricting out ability to prosecute criminals. we are supposed to have the presumption of innocence. i have the right to pull the curtains over my windows and close my door, and the police may not come in. if i perform a crim in my home, they will have to find out by means other than simply looking. encryption is to my data as the window curtains are to my home. simple enough? for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and a serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans. and yet the people vote for these people because they come out a lie to them about promising to fix things. the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone, esp. on this issue. the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications. law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon; they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it. you mean they might have to go back to actually working to do their job? oh heavens. no such laws can be constitutionally sound, and this is equivalent to a veiled threat, which i don't appreciate. this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism. i will trade threats for threats, and violation for violation. perhaps the first amendment. definitely the second and fifth. if the administration did say this, it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential, established, entrenched, and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees. the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever; such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal, and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population. unfortunately, the vast segments of the population are misinformed. they just haven't appended -sr to the name of out country, yet. this is an outright dingaling denning lie. the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible, and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise. americans are about to discover ways, through the use of technology, to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and *unrepresentative* government. i seriously doubt that the nsa thinks that privacy and surveillance are compatible. i doubt of any smart person in any other agency thinks so, either. the problem is that they simply hold privacy to be of no value at all. | phil howard, pdh@netcom.com, ka9wgn spell protection? "1(911)a1" | | right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money | | left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else!! | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15719">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15719" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 first, note that the "experts" will only look at "details", and of just the algorithm: in addition, respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings. why not the chip design? well, here's the possiblity: in addition to encryption, the chip pre-processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze/transcribe electronically. the chip, once widespread, might effectively be part of a massively parallel computer for "voice- grepping" the us phone network (or the criminal & wrong-thinking patrons thereof). first of all, the chip doesn't do that. it runs at 16 megabits/second, which is far beyond what you need for voice. it's obviously intended for data as well, and on high-speed lines at that. second -- what advantage is there to doing the processing in the phone? i don't care how fancy that chip is; it's not as fancy as the roomful of analyzers at fort meade running the program they'll have 5 years from now. they can't update every clipper chip that's out there. third -- if they did do this preprocessing in the chip, it would probably have a serious effect on recognizability of the voice patterns. if nothing else, that would hurt the acceptability of the product. the v.32bis modems are just barely fast enough to do a good job on properly- massaged voice as is; add any more to the mix, and you're completely out of the ballpark. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15723">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15723" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am testing idea block cipher implementations for correctness and needs some golden test vectors. i've looked through the postscript idea chapter but the single example gives me zero degrees of freedom. i'll contact the inventor if necessary but since we are not paying him money for use of his invention, i'd like to offload this from him. anybody got vectors? (no disease vectors, please). grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15725">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15725" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 in the uk, it's impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network. (anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved - for some reason crypto devices just never are...) whats the difference between a v.32bis modem and a v.32bis modem? i'm not being entirely silly here: what i'm pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice. absolutely. i just meant that no secure *dedicated* crypto device has ever been given approval. guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today's high-speed modems (not that i can think of many v32bis modems that are approved either mind you - just the overpriced couriers) can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? reasonably fancy. standard "voice" circuits run at 56kbps inter-exchange in the us. therefore, you need to achieve 4:1 to get standard voice quality. if you're willing to give up some quality, you need only 2:1. this is still acceptable from a speech standpoint; it will be a little less faithful to the original, but certainly intelligable. that's all you really need for this application. karl denninger (karl@genesis.mcs.com) | you can never please everyone except data line: [+1 312 248-0900] | by bankrupting yourself. live internet in chicago; an mcsnet first! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15727">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15727" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 looking for postscript or tex version of a paper called: "public-key cryptography" written by: james nechvatal security technology group national computer systems laboratory national institute of standards and technology gaithersburg, md 20899 december 1990 the version i obtained is plain text and all symbolic character formatting has been lost. gregb@tosgcla.den.mmc.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15728">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15728" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the algorithm is classified because a military contract (or similar government equivalent to military) has been let for this "proprietary" design that the feds say that nsa developed. is there a patent? is that patent publicly available? my betting is that that too is classified. unless there has been a _major_ change in the law, there's no such beast as a "classified patent." patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art. yes there is, the patent can be classified as secret. i recently saw a patent from 1947 (dealing with nuclear weapons technology) that was only declassified in the last couple of years. there is of course the problem of enforcing the patent. the same thing applies in civilian development: you can't patent something _and_ declare it a "trade secret." however, you can (and should) mark all software (including proprietary code) "unpublished copyright" so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection. this is absolutely right. alec chambers 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15730">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15730" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch, it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch. i suggest the supreme court, or, regionally, the courts of appeal. more specifically, the offices of their clerks. now that makes sense. but the other half must be in a non-government escrow. (i still like eff, but i admin their security has not been tested.) arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15732">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15732" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am *completely* baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this. she hasn't. dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues, and something won in this manner is not easily lost. her support of the clipper -- no matter how unpopular that position may be -- serves far more to enhance the clipper's respectability than to diminish her own. i wouldn't think so. asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me. arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15738">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15738" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i think this is no accident. it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules/controls the people, not the people controlling the government, that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them, so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need ... "we know best...". and the idea that that a commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook. combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with 'smart chips' to encode anything they please (internal passport) under the guise of streamlining the state people's health care system, and with (you can be certain) more jewels yet to come, and one sees an extremely ominous trend. so what if "1984" will be ten years late... it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy... unless a lot of people wake up, and in a hurry. one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights, etc. from the unconnected/unprivileged citizen (or should we now be saying 'subject' instead?)... why shouldn't the average person have a good, secure system of data security, not dependent on nebulous 'safeguards' for maintaining that security? why shouldn't the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue? 0i am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to (but it would take some work), and using the same logic, one should not be allowed to have a good safe, unless a duplicate of the key(s) or combination are submitted for 'safekeeping' by the government? i don't really see a difference, philosophically. encrypted data sure won't evaporate, not with such high-tech tools as a tape recorder... the average amerikan today seems to think that the government should be able to eavesdrop on everyone (else). opinion polls show that most people belive the bill of rights to grant too much freedom to people, when it is not identified as such (btw, if anyone knows of a cite for that, i'd love to have it). not only does this mean that these people are willing to give up everyone (else's) rights, they don't even know what the bill of rights actually says. how can we show the average person (not the average usenet reader) that people are actually entitiled to these rights? so many people don't care if the government is taking more and more control of us all, a little at a time. if there was some sort of awareness of what the government is trying to do by a majority of the us population... just think about what could be accomplished - but there are so many that trust, unthinkingly, in whatever the media and government tell them. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15740">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15740" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 |> >(the date i have for this is 1-26-93) |> >note clinton's statements about encryption in the 3rd paragraph.. i guess |> >this statement doesen't contradict what you said, though. |> >--- cut here --- |> > washington (upi) -- the war on drugs is about to get a fresh |> >start, president clinton told delegates to the national federation |> >of police commisioners convention in washington. |> > in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural, |> >clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war ``would make |> >everything so far seem so half-hearted that for all practical |> i just found out from my source that this article was a joke. heh heh.. |> it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start -- i just didn't |> notice the smiley at the end of the article, and there were a few other |> hints which i should of caught. well, isn't this just a hoot! :) all i read on this group is a bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt. this just happens to be a case of an ordinary-joe-netter, who decided that he would create and/or distribute some misinformation. ppl buy into bs posts like this (i know, because i forwarded a copy of the post to my office mate, who turned around and was (although he won't admit it...sorry joe!) ready to get in a fight about f-o-r-f-e-i-t-u-r-e!!!) please, if we're going to hold our govt (which admittedly has had and still has its problems) to high standards, then mustn't we follow these too? electronic freedoms only go so far. |> anyway -- i guess this 'joke' did turn out to resemble clinton's true |> feelings at least to some extent. |> sorry about that... |> -marc |> andersom@spot.colorado.edu hey, i'm willing to forgive...after of course my office mate takes his extra anti-paranoia pills! :) doug mckee mckee@cs.buffalo.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15746">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15746" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i have an idea as to why the encryption algorithm needs to be keep secret, and some things that i think it implies. (of course these could all be wrong.....) the clipper chip: a technical summary dorothy denning revised, april 21, 1993 the clipper chip contains a classified single-key 64-bit block encryption algorithm called "skipjack." the algorithm uses 80 bit keys (compared with 56 for the des) and has 32 rounds of scrambling (compared with 16 for the des). it supports all 4 des modes of operation. the algorithm takes 32 clock ticks, and in electronic codebook (ecb) mode runs at 12 mbits per second. each chip includes the following components: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number (this length is subject to change) u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used, imagine that it is embedded in the at&t telephone security device (as it will be). suppose i call someone and we both have such a device. after pushing a button to start a secure conversation, my security device will negotiate an 80-bit session key k with the device at the other end. this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip. in general, any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie-hellman public-key distribution method. once the session key k is established, the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m (digitized voice). the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values: e[m; k], the encrypted message stream, and e[e[k; u] + n; f], a law enforcement field , which are transmitted over the telephone line. the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n, all encrypted under the family key f. the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed. suppose i knew how the algorithm worked and knew the n for my chip, but did not know f, then by cryptanalysis i might be able to determine f from if law enforcement field e[e[k; u] + n; f] not knowing n would might make this much harder. now suppose that i know f, (either legitimately or not), if i know k (either because i am involved in the conversation, or i know u for a party in the conversation), i may now be able to determine u for the other party. if i know f i can also defeat the law enforcement field, since i could make my own, with a different k then the one i am using. knowing f also allows traffic analysis to be performed. so i might not know what you are saying but i could know who you are saying it too. now i admit that someone trying to compute u will not have lots of messages to work from, but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not (deliberately?) generate weak keys, or for that matter that the published method is in fact used, perhaps the u's will be chosen from know weak keys for the system. obviously the compromise of f would be a disaster, both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed, and for the people who believe that it is giving them security. f is but one number, and i sure that alot of people (more then 1) know what it is (and if some "panel of experts" is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know f, forget grinding chips, bribery and blackmail work just fine. so, am i wrong? or are these problems. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15747">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15747" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip, any tactic is fair. this is pernicious nonsense! in what way david? our government is totally out of control, whether you realize it or not. i know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it's true. other democracies have fallen before. ours is on its way and knee-jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide. power corrupts david, why is that so hard to understand? that wasn't my point. my point is that your implied position about the "waco massacre" is an assertion cum political position. according to a cnn poll, about 86% of americans think the fbi acted properly, and a majority think they should have done it (the tear gas) a lot sooner. a large majority also believe the fbi was not at all responsible for the death of the victims, koresh was. (let's avoid the kind of fruitless argument of the sort if a hadn't x'd, then b might not have y'd....) what you call the "big brother chip" is right now a proposal under discussion, and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be therefore neither justifies "any tactic is fair." thus the statement is nonsense. it is pernicious, because "any tactic" can lead to damaging as i see you know from the tone of your reply, there's nothing personal david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15748">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15748" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 < > i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in < >the design and propoganda stages that she doesn't care any more? < which is to say: is the nsa -totally- perfidious, or does it at least <have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own? <g> of course they take care of their own ... very well ... until the person has 'outlived his/her/undefined usefulness'... then 'elimination' becomes a consideration... :-) pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15749">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15749" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 at the company i worked for previously, i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it, went on vaction. rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time. it only took two(2) days to crack the file. taking this at face value (though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking, unless russell was lucky with respect to the key), i'd be very interested in whether the program russell used is available? in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand? in whether he used a known plaintext attack? this has to be a dictionary attack. no other attack makes sense. this means that whoever encrypted the file just typed some password which was a single dictionary word, and then russell tried all the words in the dictionary. this isn't too implausible, especially if he was smart and clipped the first plaintext block off the ciphertext (if the first block doesn't decrypt then obviously the others won't either). assuming one attempt a second, it takes seven hours to try all the words in /usr/dict/words. not real tough. if you want des to be secure, you have to use random keys. you can't just type your wife's name and think "aha they'll never guess that one!" daniel f. boyd -- boyd@cs.buffalo.edu "welcome to the first church of appliantology. the white zone is for loading and unloading only." 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15751">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15751" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 psionic@wam.umd.edu, whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides, posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors, while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper. will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt.privacy.clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15752">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15752" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 1) i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope, and the cost of printing out a letter. 2) if some kind soul out there would write a letter, and upload it to the net, everyone could capture it, print it out, and snail-mail it out to their local congressional critter. btw>> i'm working on one. o---------------------------+======================================o | "i hate quotations. | this message brought you by | | tell me what you know." | nate sammons, and the number 42. | | --ralph waldo emerson | ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu | o---------------------------+======================================o 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15753">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15753" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 thanks a bunch, o---------------------------+======================================o | "i hate quotations. | this message brought you by | | tell me what you know." | nate sammons, and the number 42. | | --ralph waldo emerson | ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu | o---------------------------+======================================o 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15755">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15755" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 no, because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations. true, they'll blame the wrong guys, but nevertheless one cannot say something like "the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship 'terminus'" when the feds are listening, even if they cannot identify who the speaker is. it's not a question just of who is holding the phone. it's a question of what circuit to wiretap in the first place. if two drug dealers are both using stolen cellular phones, the fbi doesn't know which lines to tap -- unless of course they're tapping *all* phones (maybe *all* cellular phones). if they haven't tapped the connection (ie., at least one end of the connection) then they don't know what key to request. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15759">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15759" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the clipper chip: a technical summary dorothy denning revised, april 21, 1993 the chips are programmed by mykotronx, inc., which calls them the "myk-78." the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc. all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif (secure compartmented information facility), which is essentially a vault. the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips. about 300 chips are programmed during a single session. the scif is located at acknowledgment and distribution notice. this article is based on information provided by nsa, nist, fbi, and mykotronx. permission to distribute this document is granted. so, who is mykotronx, inc.? it would be nice to know that they were not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the u.s. government. trusting the fox to guard the chickens, and all that. seems suspicious when the rest of the sources are foxes. while we are at it, the chip design(s) should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon, regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm. it would be a shame if some three letter agency had the ability to interrogate my chip, when all i'd know is that someone rang, and when i attempted to go off hook the line went dead. could be even worse if the chip were intended to connect directly to a modem. the design examination should be done to the gate level. does anyone have a good idea how to tell if there is a piggyback design on silicon? the model would be extra logic sharing pins with the advertised function. tip offs would be circuitry that would ignore incoming data if formats or sequence is not right. i can think of only two ways an output pin could be used, and its possible that might be noticed, but could be edited from the netlist. i think the silicon itself needs to be investigated. imagine a design done in two layer metalization, yet finding a third layer under the the government is asking for a lot of blind trust: the encryption algorithm, operating protocols, the agency having physical control of the devices, the silicon implementation. i'd feel like keeping one hand on my wallet. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15767">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15767" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs. clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps. further, how do we know clancy knows, rather than repeating what he's read or been told in the unclassified domain? david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15768">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15768" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 from these figures, estimate the number of clipper-tap requests the fbi is expecting. publish this figure. compare it on a per-capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected. the attorney general publishes the number of court-ordered taps each year. it isn't enough (around a thousand) for the average non-crook, non-spy to worry about. in fact, considering any reasonable guess about the number of big-time crooks and spies around, it may not be enough even for most crooks and spies to worry about. there's no reason to believe that it will go up with clipper, since the number of taps now includes many targets too stupid to use encryption (based on the playbacks we've heard in court cases). david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15769">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15769" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 so, don't just think of replacements for clipper, also think of front this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non-escrowed encryption schemes. otherwise, why not just use the front end without because everyone but you expects that making alternative methods of encryption illegal is the next step. otherwise the cripple chip is utterly worthless. it should be obvious that a) the cripple chip is aimed at spying on ordinary citizens b) that other forms of encryption will soon be illegal. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15771">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15771" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one's clipper messages somehow if non-escrowed crypto goes away. a little perspective might be in order. the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low. law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government, and for that to happen they have to: a) have a pretty good reason, with evidence; b) use this sparingly on highest priority "pretty good reasons." though the system may be imperfect, it is a long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15772">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15772" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud (fear, uncertainty, doubt) factor. if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely -- the government says it's solid; other people in the field say it's swiss cheese -- the balance of doubt could shift against the feds. any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition. since you asked, the above is a bit inaccurate. more accurate is that the government says its solid, other people in the field who might be able to find out haven't yet done their review of the chip design, and there's been a lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15774">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15774" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the attorney general publishes the number of court-ordered taps each year. i believe you are mistaken. i don't believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps. carl kadie -- i do not represent any organization; this is just me. = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15776">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15776" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the attorney general publishes the number of court-ordered taps each year. i believe you are mistaken. i don't believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps. carl kadie -- i do not represent any organization; this is just me. = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = hmmm.... now if we could have *3* keys kept in escrow, with one of the groups keeping a key being the government, then the states would need federal permission to run a wiretap.... interesting possibility:-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15777">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15777" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones, a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created. criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications (specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats) will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user, and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed. you obviously haven't read the information about the system. the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified. the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units. i am against the proposal, but lets be accurate in our objections. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15778">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15778" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 maybe we should start a newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with a shared private key. for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting, a private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by a moderator. minutes, followup comments to other participants, and so on could be posted to the alt.encrypted group for the use of the people who attended. communiques intended by the group for non-attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted. i like it. pgp would be useful, i guess. although i don't have a working version for vms yet... :-( grady@netcom.com 2ef221 / 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f david l. cathey |inet: davidc@montagar.com montagar software concepts |uucp: ...!montagar!davidc p. o. box 260772, plano tx 75026-0772 |fone: (214)-618-2117 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15779">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15779" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : "numerical recipes in c"..fortran..pascal has a nice section on : encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm. there is : also source code provided (i think some versions of this book are : distributed with the source code on disk; the source code can : also be ordered from the publisher). : --victor iseli : victori@xetron.com yes i benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in c book.. it is about 1 1/2 orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge/karn/gillogly/et al implementation. it may be instructional, but it isn't very fast. it has also apparently been excised from the second edition. lefty (lefty@apple.com) c:.m:.c:., d:.o:.d:. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15780">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15780" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 absolutely. i just meant that no secure *dedicated* crypto device has ever been given approval. guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today's high-speed modems (not that i can think of many v32bis modems that are approved either mind you - just the overpriced couriers) can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? it is said that celp vocoders can run on the highest speed 486s with some room to spare -- they turn 64kbit (8 bit samples, 8k samples/sec) into 4800 baud. however, dsp is hairy, and i have yet to see actual proof of this in the form of an implementation. i have heard fairly reliable rumors to the effect that a famous internetworking guru has a celp implementation that runs on sparcstation 1+'s with some room to spare, but i have not succeeded thus far in getting my hands on a copy -- the guru in question has a reputation for not releasing code without having beaten on it for a very very long time first. dsp experts are heavily encouraged to try their own hand at this perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15789">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15789" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 really, none of this stuff is especially hard. all you need for a true private phone is an isdn codec, a vocoder (either a chip or software), an encryptor (a chip is fine, but software is more than fast enough), a v.32 or v.32bis modem module, and maybe a microcontroller to run the whole thing. its easy to do, its cheap. and any "normal" company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington, just like qualcomm have the feds shut down the people making sound blaster? what about apple and next? apple, next, sun, and others make systems that can handle cd-quality audio in and out, and can perform arbitrary transformation on it in the process of transmitting it across a network or modem. perhaps there's a market for a portable vocoder. not a crypto device, simply an rs232<->voice converter. make it capable of recording speech and playing it back simultaneously. it has applications for multimedia, computing for the handicapped, internet talk radio, irc, etc, etc, etc. it wouldn't be a cryptographic device at all - but i suppose someone could have it hooked to a 486 laptop with a v.32bis modem and some crypto software. i'd market the thing with an api for text-to-speech using simple phonemes and the ability to use speech samples. and, of course, i'd publish the interface to it so other folks could write any applications they wanted to talk to the thing. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15793">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15793" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 psionic@wam.umd.edu, whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides, posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors, while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper. i have a couple reasons why i would be more likely to trust this algorithm: 1. the algorithm will be made totally public, once it is patented. 2. the keys will not be escrowed. of course if either of these is not true, i will not use this new algorithm. since i have never seen this new algorithm, i have no idea how secure it is i suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be, but how does the writer know the firm isn't, for example, an nsa front? for purposes of this message, how do we know "psionic" isn't? i don't suggest that, but post this to point out that there is a class of speculation that has no more truth value, without lots of hard evidence, than the contrary one. by the way, if "psionic" had said, in lower case letters, that the firm claims there was no back door, i'd have no problem with that phrasing. i can't make any judgements about the algorithm itself yet, but i do notice that the creators of this algorithm are being more open about how the thing works, and is willing to make it public, showing that after a bit of scrutiny, any weaknesses will probably be revealed, while we don't know about clipper. doug holland | doug holland | anyone who tries to take away my freedom | | holland@cs.colostate.edu | of speech will have to pry it from my | | pgp key available by e-mail | cold, dead lips!! | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15795">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15795" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 there are chips which perform the voice compression/expansion. they can't be expensive, because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards, as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses voice-grade circuits to save the cost of long-distance, leased t1s or satellite circuits. i can't remember the generic term for these chips. my impression is that this was a big deal 10 years ago, but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn't done much now. lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15803">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15803" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption? so much for clinton's support of the "right of privacy". there's an out for him. the announcement talked about strong cryptography i believe. specifically: nor is the u.s. saying that "every american, as a matter of right, is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product." every vendor claims his product is unbreakable -- so this was sloppy wording. i am not claiming that we private citizens should have access to the nsa's best, secret algorithms. i don't want any nsa algorithms, actually. i'll let them break my pitiful amateur algorithms -- and rsa's. all i want is what i have already -- the ability and right to invent and use my own algorithms, share them with my friends and sell them. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15805">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15805" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 perhaps these encryption-only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted? these issues are not as seperable as you maintain. to paraphrase, i may not agree with what you're encrypting, but i defend your right to encrypt it. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15806">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15806" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 does anyone know where i can get a hold of some secure encrypting chips or devices before they are banned completely?!? "if encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption" 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15807">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15807" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ever since craig rowland posted his piece "new encryption" to sci.crypt there has been some discussion of our company, secured communications technologies, inc, and on encryption algorithm, nea. i spoke to craig at length on 4/21/93 and we covered a lot of ground. some of the information in the posting requires some clarification, and i would like to answer some of the questions raised on sci.crypt. sct is a small company based in silver spring maryland. our two main products at this time are a pc based secure communications program called secom and a general purpose encryption chip which uses the nea algorithm developed for secom. secom provides an encrypted secure communication link between two pc's connected over dial up telephone lines. it supports simultaneous bi-directional file transfer and keyboard to screen "chat". it has its own proprietary communications protocol which is tightly integrated to the encryption. all though it is a packetized link, the data stream appears to be continuous because the packet boundaries are hidden. when secom was initially developed, it was implemented to use des encryption. a business decision was made to seek export approval for the product because it was perceived that the overseas market was a large one and provided a good marketing we soon found out that we would never be granted general export approval for anything using des. all though the reason for this was never explicitly stated, it seems to have something to do with secret government to government agreements which are still in effect. in any event, the decision was made to develop a new and different algorithm which would take the place of des. this was the reason nea (new encryption algorithm) was born. at this time nea is being held as a trade secret. the preliminary work of patenting it has begun, and the plan is to make it public once the patent process is complete. all though one can make certain legal arguments for keeping it an ongoing secret, i think in the case of an encryption algorithm it is necessary to let people "shoot at it" over an extended period of time to prove its worth. in order to get export approval for secom/nea, it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm. this was done only after we had a finished product to submit. let me state unequivocally that there is no "back door" to the program or the algorithm. secured communications technologies is a closely held private company and nsa/fbi/cia/nist/whatever has no financial interest in any way whatsoever with the company or any of the people involved. from a practical business standpoint, we are interested in selling chips and software (hopefully in large quantities) and a back door to the encryption, if found out, could destroy our credibility and our business. with the encryption algorithm approved for export, we set out to talk to a number of potential customers for encryption products and systems. we were able to identify several common threads of functionality requirements. this led to the design of a chip with the encryption algorithm "cast in silicon" and certain other capabilities added so that the chip could fulfill the broad range of requirements that we identified. we are strongly opposed to the clipper/capstone chips. in a press release today, our president, dr. stephen bryen stated: "it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public. but do we not understand how the national security agency, which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying, can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u.s. government domestic spying activities." if they had asked me to put a "back door" in nea i would have told them to g__ f____ed. can nsa break nea? or for that matter can they break des, rsa, idea, diffy-hellman, pgp, rc2, rc4, or whatever? i don't know and probably never will. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15808">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15808" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i just signed up for this group, so i hope i'm not missing something in a faq, but i'm looking for a good introduction to the mathematics of encryption -- particularly des and public-key, though others would be interesting also. probably a good library could help me out, but i thought it might be even easier if i could obtain a nice article entirely electronically (besides, i have this rather *rational* phobia of libraries for reasons stemming from this "dissertation" thing hanging over my head :-)). i have a basic knowledge of mathematics... number-theory is a bit unfamiliar to me, but i've had a few graduate-level math courses in some other areas; anyway, i'm not a complete novice to the field. so probably something aimed at a basic graduate introductory level would be about right. something, anyway, which is more specific than "a really big prime number is generated to code the message". if someone knows of a good text available by ftp (or gopher), or would like to email me one... please let me know. i'll probably keep reading this group; but it would be nice if you would email me at the same time, so i don't miss it. thanx, lulu... _/_/_/ this message was brought to you by: postmodern enterprises _/_/_/ _/_/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[quilty@philos.umass.edu]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _/_/ _/_/ the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer... _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ surely you don't think that *i* believe them! _/_/ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15809">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15809" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if you can get it for a buck, 2nd hand, it must be true, eh? i'm pretty sure the nsa is supposed to, among many other things, provide high-quality cryptosystems to a variety of places. i don't recall reading anywhere reliable that they're supposed to: 1) monitor my phonecalls. 2) monitor usenet. 3) provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack. 4) etc etc. this is not to say that they *don't*, they might. but you don't know that they do, and you have no evidence that they do, for almost all values of you. it follows, therefore, that for most values of 'you', your claims about the nsa border on paranoia. ok, andrew, i'll provide some evidence. a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west-coast office. they routinely sold equipment to the japanese. one day, the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices. the japanese had simply intercepted it. so my friend, the computer systems admin, came up with a solution. he started sending the data out double-block-encrypted with des. two days after this new distribution plan was implemented, the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents. they told him to "knock it off". the president gave in, since his company did a considerable business with the federal government. now, if the government wasn't monitoring the communications, how would they even know that the encryption system was installed? further, since encryp- tion isn't illegal, and des certainly isn't, what is the basis of the government's cease-and-desist demand? the spooks do whatever they think is necessary, with or without the blessings of the law. i'll say "no thanks" to clipper, or anything else the government produces. for the moment, double or triple des is probably adequate. and when the line is idle, send random garbage, just to keep 'em busy. david hayes merlin@lerami.lerctr.org 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15810">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15810" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in this giant bally-ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e-mail and posts i've tossing back and somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this. the reason is very simple: how many people do you want to die in a riot? in a new civil war? everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it, and i'm worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper. can people work within the system before trying to break it? a circut court judge in illinois once said "when dealing with a government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its' citizenry, one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy." (unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors....) the point remains. more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy. even unwittingly. do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth? do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i'm saying? even if there is no evidence of my guilt? do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its' citizenry without recourse of any kind? i'm tired of it. there is (imho) no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy. more than the proposals themselves, i read the language of the press releases, the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public, and i am sickened. i am revolted. i am repulsed. 90%, perhaps even 95% of this country could care less about the clipper chip, the wiretap bill, the smart card, because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration. this saddens and frightens me. i am a conserveative believe it or not. a law and order conserveative. but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me, mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people. tell them it's going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists, and they will let you put cameras in their home. even in the wake of waco, you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves. somebody once said something like: "armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack. it is not meant to be used in agression. this is the difference between self-defence and murder." to be quite honest, the way things are going, i'd call it self defense. let's try to avoid killing things, eh? there's enough blood shed in the world, without adding a couple of riots, civil wars, etc. i'm probably overreacting. but what i've read scared me a lot. i don't want my children growing up in a war zone. and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera 24 hours a day. jerry han-crc-doc-div. of behavioural research-"jhan@debra.dgbt.doc.ca" ///////////// these are my opinions, and my opinions only. \\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\ a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band //////// "memories of those i've left behind, still ringing in my ears."-genesis- uni@acs.bu.edu -> public keys by finger and/or request public key archives: <pgp-public-keys@pgp.iastate.edu> sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past.<>fight clinton's wiretap chip! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c <> crypto is not a crime! ask me how! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15811">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15811" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : would wiretap chip be cost-effective? : summary: compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars, : wiretaps are only worth two cents a month to police. so the : proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part : in three thousand to be cost-effective. robin's calculation is interesting and important, even if it's off by an order of magnitude (for example). even if hardware costs for the clipper chip phones were zero, the protocol overhead in transmitting the escrow field would be much higher than the 1 part in 3 thousand...it depends on the exact details of the phone call length, protocol, etc. (shorter calls get a proportionately greater hit). however, i suspect most americans will not find this line of reasoning as persuasive as the analogies about escrowing keys to one's house -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15815">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15815" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the points raised about checking what is actually -in- the chip, as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein, raise yet another trust issue. even if we assume that these "trusted agents" are really entering a wide range of s1 and s2 seeds (rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to 30 bits), i assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data. they would presumably be punching numbers into a computer, which for all they know could program the chips in a manner completely independent of the s1 and s2 values they are feeding into the system. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15816">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15816" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones. they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity. the government decided to "discourage" them. you're blowing smoke. qualcomm wants to sell to nice, lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec. the government told them "don't do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology". the reason that cdma doesn't have encryption is not because the g-men came a'knocking at qualcomm's door. it's because qualcomm doesn't think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them. this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again. if you don't believe me, call qualcomm and ask them. don't just throw out conspicracy theories. at least, don't do it on sci.crypt--there are whole other newsgroups devoted to this kind of uninformed claptrap. any "normal" company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington, just like qualcomm did. i suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive. hah. they're not that much more expensive. besides, if a drug dealer can afford a rolex and a mercedes, he can darn well afford cylink phones. no, cylink sells their phones because they're willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs. export. qualcomm isn't. so cylink makes money--that's capitalism, comrade. someone out there will build a unit to do all this. better yet, prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any 486 box with a sound card into a secure phone. "someone" this and "someone" that. if you think it's so easy, why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it? your name would become known and loved by dozens! but no, that would require actual effort. -= servalan =- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15820">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15820" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in order to get export approval for secom/nea, it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm. this was done only after we had a finished product to submit. with the encryption algorithm approved for export, we set please don't be insulted, but based on this i would say that your encryption algorithm is very likely not worth the paper it's printed on. if the nsa gave export approval, that means they felt confident that they could crack it -- that's their job, mandated by law, and i'm sure they believe in what they do. if they gave export approval to an encryption algorithm which they weren't confident of being able to crack, they would be derelict in their sworn duty to monitor foreign communications for us national security related material. just because many (most?) of us think that the government and the spooks are pugnacious slimeballs is no reason to lose sight of the fact that they do their jobs to the best of their ability, and further that said ability is rather high. i hope that one day we can make them all obsolete....... but until then, we have to cope with their existence. export approvals are one thing they do that we can learn a lot from, for example. robert bickford /-------------------------------------\ rab@well.sf.ca.us | don't blame me: i voted libertarian | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15821">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15821" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 acceptance of the wiretap chip) at the company i worked for previously, i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it, went on vaction. rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time. it only took two(2) days to crack the file. no, i don't have any faith in des. taking this at face value (though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking, unless russell was lucky with respect to the key), i'd be very interested in whether the program russell used is available? in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand? in whether he used a known plaintext attack? he probably should also tell us, given his address, what machine he used--a desktop, workstation, or super-computer. depending on his answer, this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa/des. dunno about rsa/idea. if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days (assuming no tricks that are message-specific), then here's my clipper key, nsa; give me the chip at once. :-) david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. a person i know, belonging to a research lab of a rivate company, claimed to me during a priavte conversation that, given the equipment in his lab, he could crack a kerberos ticket in 15 minutes to an hour. he had access to rather powerful des hardware, but not of an extraordinare kind, i believe. the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket, which itself constitutes a small message. this was two years ago. des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data. for a lot of purposes, however, it is still very adequate. jon olnes, norwegian computing centre, oslo, norway e-mail: jon.olnes@nr.no or jon@ifi.uio.no 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15823">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15823" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :in article <apr18.194927.17048@yuma.acns.colostate.edu> :>note that measures to protect yourself from :>tempest surveillance are still classified, as far as i know. :i think this to be inaccurate. one can buy tempest equipment commercially. :even macs. sure you can buy a tempest approved mac -- if you have enough money. i haven't had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about 10 years, but a tempest rating in 1982 would raise the price of a $2,495.00 radio shack model iii to something around $15,000.00. or just dig a deep enough hole in the ground. 50 feet should do it. redsonja@olias.linet.org \\\rs/// self possession is 9/10 of the law. alien: "we control the laws of nature!" | "how come when it's human, it's an joel: "and you still dress that way?" | abortion, but when it's a chicken, (mst3k#17 - gamera vs guiron) | it's an omelet?" - george carlin 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15824">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15824" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if you can get it for a buck, 2nd hand, it must be true, eh? i'm pretty sure the nsa is supposed to, among many other things, provide high-quality cryptosystems to a variety of places. i don't recall reading anywhere reliable that they're supposed to: 1) monitor my phonecalls. 2) monitor usenet. 3) provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack. 4) etc etc. this is not to say that they *don't*, they might. but you don't know that they do, and you have no evidence that they do, for almost all values of you. it follows, therefore, that for most values of 'you', your claims about the nsa border on paranoia. ok, andrew, i'll provide some evidence. a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west-coast office. they routinely sold [story deleted] let me give you another story that actually happened to me. we sell communications boards that use a 68000. they used to be high tech. our agent in the uk sold a system to a company in ch which packaged it in a product for cz (london-bern-prague). i telexed the brits and told them the swiss need to pass export paperwork through the us as, at the time, you needed an export lisence for these systems. now i knew the nsa was watching this traffic (just like they are watching this traffic.) and what do you know... two weeks later an agent of the us government shows up in my office to remind me if we or our agents sold systems into the evil empire, we had better make sure the export lisences were handled properly. he was part of a five man office in columbus ohio!! who did this stuff based on sources he could not reveal. (i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn't that much stuff coming out of columbus :) wow, the electric utility in prague sure is a big worry for these folks :) the point is, we have created a giant bureaucracy (nsa) with a budget bigger than the cia's who, like all bureaucracies, fill their time looking for things to do. the evil empire is gone. the nsa is not. they will do something to fill their time and justify their budgets. (i just wish they too would sit around with their thumbs up their ass... but that is too much to hope for... they will spy on us and do things like skipjack and subvert people like dorothy denning.) sigh... information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ support privacy: support encryption (--)\ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15825">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15825" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 perhaps these encryption-only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted? these issues are not as seperable as you maintain. now why would anyone "post" anything encrypted? encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data. you mean something like uuencode? it isn't super crypto, but it is encrypted. scott moir / satyr on irc ______ # "there's really only one requirement smoir@world.std.com \ \/ / # for a prophet, and you've got it." b4 f t+ w g k+(+!) s+ m r p+ \/\/ # "what's that?" also: pentangl@ursa-major.spdcc.com # "a mouth." - 'god' to j.r.'bob' dobbs 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15828">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15828" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 |> > since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive |> > branch and approved by the judicial branch, it seems clear that one |> > of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the |> > judicial branch. i suggest the supreme court, or, regionally, the |> > courts of appeal. more specifically, the offices of their clerks. |> now that makes sense. but the other half must be in a non-government |> escrow. good idea, but why put all the eggs in one basket? given that the escrow keys are generated 200 at a time on floppy disks, why not keep them there rather than creating one huge database that will have to be guarded better than fort knox. give each floppy to a different bank for safekeeping. the usa has over 10,000 banks and thrifts - there are not likely to be more than 2,000,000 clipper phones sold. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15829">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15829" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in the clipper case, a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it, and we'll have assurances (maybe even from the president) that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors. while some may not have confidence in that (i am not among them) wow, assurances from the president. why, those are almost as good as campaign promises! i don't see why anyone wouldn't have confidence in 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15830">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15830" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 additonally i spoke with mr. melnick about their algorithm. he couldn't tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn't been patented yet. right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business. this is a very real possibility. so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard. if they're planning on patenting an algorithm, then i hope they go out of business as quickly as possible. and you can tell them i said that. i'm sure many other readers of these newsgroups will agree, too. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15833">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15833" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hello. i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq. unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time. cool it, will you? let people form their own opinions. even mr. sternlight might be right sometime, and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net.opinion. this does not bespeak tolerance, imo. c _) david sternlight | ,___| net.police indeed... lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 the gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15834">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15834" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in this giant bally-ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e-mail and posts i've tossing back and me too. a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand. i never advocated "hiding in the sand." i'm advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible. unless you want blood on your hands. how many people do you want jailed for their convictions, for their insistence on real privacy? why sit by quietly while the preconditions for a real civil war are put in place by a short-sighted government. read the above. everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it, and i'm worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper. the terminal is mightier than the pen :) i type corrected. (:-) really? i guess you mean the u.s. revolution. how about england, india, mexico, france, holland.... english revolution-> what revolution? they never had one. india-> if they could get around their religion restrictions mexico-> point taken, i forgot about this one. france-> napoleon bonepart would have something to say about this. holland-> i didn't know they had one, won't comment because i don't know that's not very good odds. you are misinformed. but this whole issue is off the topic. actually, i consider the issue on topic. when you start gambling with fire crackers, sooner or later, somebody is going to lose a hand. when the cops kick in your door for using pgp, tell them that. all we're doing here is exercising our (so-called, rapidly narrowing) right to free speech. fine. exercise the right to free speech. that's great! but don't resort to armed violence until there's no other possibility. perhaps you should talk to the government about that. or are you a disciple of david "the cops are our friends" sternlight? no. i believe there are bad cops, and good cops. there are bad people, and good people. (and all that grey inbetween.) i have had the pleasure of knowing a police officer who did his best to uphold the laws he swore to defend. i have also seen what happens when police power is abused. don't generalize in either direction. it just causes problems. the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto, the not-so-subtle subtext of the clipper announcement, is what worries me. i don't want my children growing up in a police state. me either. nice can of worms, ain't it? jerry han-crc-doc-div. of behavioural research-"jhan@debra.dgbt.doc.ca" ///////////// these are my opinions, and my opinions only. \\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\ a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band //////// "memories of those i've left behind, still ringing in my ears."-genesis- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15836">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15836" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 a person i know, belonging to a research lab of a rivate company, claimed to me during a priavte conversation that, given the equipment in his lab, he could crack a kerberos ticket in 15 minutes to an hour. he had access to rather powerful des hardware, but not of an extraordinare kind, i believe. the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket, which itself constitutes a small message. this was two years ago. that would be a v4 ticket, presumably, not a v5 ticket. the v4 ticket format can even be complicated several more orders of magnitude... lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 the gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15837">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15837" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hello. i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq. unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time. cool it, will you? let people form their own opinions. even mr. sternlight might be right sometime, and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net.opinion. this does not bespeak tolerance, imo. c _) david sternlight | ,___| net.police indeed... lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 the gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 hopefully, he doesnt take it personal... martin hannigan : twisted pair consulting : 617-623-3534 mac : ibm pc & mainframe : unix 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15838">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15838" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i just posted this reply to comp.risks (answering risks digest 14.53). summary: re: [14.53 mark seecof] "key escrow" references: <cmm.0.90.1.735527964.risks@chiron.csl.sri.com> advances in digital computing have made it possible for ordinary people to use powerful machine cipher techniques. it is tempting (albeit chauvinistic) to believe that we have a new situation here, thanks to our pet computers. this is not true. david kahn's "the codebreakers", a history of cryptography, makes two things obvious: 1. cryptography is a spontaneous invention of private human individuals and has been going on for thousands of years. [teen-age slang and cipher inventions provide a modern example of this spontaneous creation.] 2. the systems people created on their own were roughly as secure as (and sometimes more secure than) those used by military and diplomatic users *of that time* (although they seem very simple and insecure today). [e.g., in places, the bible used a more complex simple substitution than caesar did for his military dispatches, but before caesar.] i commend kahn's book to all who might be interested. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15841">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15841" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hmmm... i also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name "clipper" for this device. :) not to mention computer associates. i'll have to be careful to stop telling people i'm a clipper programmer, they might lynch me... :-) 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15842">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15842" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt. standard takes off, only people with lots of money (drug dealers) will be able to justify des stuff. he will slam clinton for this on the air. --rob. i seem to recall rush saying that he has a compuserve account. if anyone wants to e-mail him, all we need is his account number (i.e.: 12345,6789) and then we could e-mail him via gateway by using a dot instead of a comma like so: "12345.6789@compuserve.com". (this is *not* his address.) so, does anyone know his e-mail address? he *says* he uses it all the time. (i wonder if he reads alt.fan.rush-limbaugh... his ego is big enough!) rick miller <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <ricxjo@discus.mil.wi.us> ricxjo muelisto send a postcard, get one back! | enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion! i've heard he doesn't read alt.fan.rush..... but i have no idea of a compuserve e-mail address... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15843">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15843" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 look, we (collectively) have the power to throw the bums out, but we don't use it. we clearly don't need to go burning things down, but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out. unfortunately, the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time, so the masses won't react and throw them out. eventually, the masses will react, unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy. the sooner it happens, the less the damages will be. i don't want to live in a war zone, either -- i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some *real* damage. before they do some real damage?? you haven't been paying attention, it seems. the so-called war on drugs has already done major damage to the us constitution. howard s shubs hshubs@bix.com for to win 100 victories in 100 the denim adept hshubs@cis.umassd.edu battles is not the acme of skill. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15845">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15845" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 1) second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms. 2) strong cryptography is "arms", according to the u.s. government (that's why it's so hard to export). therefore, we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography! better, i think, is our right peacably to assemble. i have a right to meet you in a park and talk privately. i have a right to see if anyone is nearby, listening. in cyberspace, cryptography gives us a right to assemble with control over who overhears us. - <<disclaimer: all opinions expressed are my own, of course.>> - carl ellison cme@sw.stratus.com - stratus computer inc. m3-2-bkw tel: (508)460-2783 - 55 fairbanks boulevard ; marlborough ma 01752-1298 fax: (508)624-7488 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15847">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15847" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 n9045178@henson.cc.wwu.edu (sean dean) writes... [other 2 posts deleted] |i've heard he doesn't read alt.fan.rush..... |but i have no idea of a compuserve e-mail address... does anyone have rush limbaugh's e-mail address? is there anyone out there on compuserve who might be able to look it up or otherwise find it? maybe it would be impossible, but i thought i should at least ask... mr. weather / r1b6116@zeus.tamu.edu / ken blair 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15848">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15848" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i've been reading the sci.crypt, alt.privacy.clipper and comp.org.eff.talk discussions about the clipper chip and find (as usual) that most of us think alike -- so there's a lot of repitition. if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net (or instead of to the net), we might actually have some effect. 0005895485@mcimail.com (white house) i've already written a 5000 char commentary (from my mci mail account, so i can't be accused of being a "hacker".) arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15851">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15851" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : as a private citizen, i would feel much more "secure in my person and : papers" knowing that an organization committed to individual civil : liberties- the aclu and the nra come to mind- was safeguarding half of : my key. both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure : by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported, funded, or : overtly controlled by the government. thats one problem that has so far been overlooked. these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys. who pays for this? if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them? will congress be forced to fund them forever? the problem is that laws can change. congress may pass a law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private. some future congress may change that law. suppose pre-nazi germany had a clipper system. do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid court order? in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance. they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through a court challenge. john eaton !hp-vcd!johne 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15854">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15854" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i came. i lurked. i read the faq. now having purchased the recommended books, and having taken to heart the advice that one knows nothing about crypto without having done a stint as a cryptanalyst, i would like to correspond with people interested in cryptology. i am working on implementing the cryptanalyst's workbench example in booch's ood with applications. i hope to start sending ciphers back and forth so each of us can practice cracking them. i would like to start with simple ceaser's ciphers and progress roughly according to david kahn's book. of course i would be interested in general discussions and math also. i hope to have some foriegn correspondants so that we can test the response time of the "men in the suits" i've been hearing so much about. unfortunately as a product of the american education system i only know english. looking forward to any and all responses. james m. kliegel kliegel@key.amdahl.com (510) 623-3148 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15855">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15855" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the nra is successful because (among a number of things), on the drop of a hat, they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards, faxes and phone calls. certainly, with our way-cool internet powers of organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate. i don't know about you, but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper if i had e-mail to congress, i would have written many letters by now. i haven't written one yet, as it turns out. writing on paper is such a complicated job, for those of us hooked on our way-cool internet. that's what mci mail is for! (compuserve also has "congressgrams" (tm).) this is not intended as an advertisement; that really is what mci mail was intended for (according to their ads). arthur l. rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) beckman instruments/brea 216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal) my opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15857">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15857" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i wouldn't think so. asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me. maybe so, but it's quite common. there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what's in apple's patented roms. many have modems connected. how do you know all your business secrets aren't being stolen? answer: 1. because you trust apple; 2. because if any such attempt, however sophicsticated, came out, it would destroy apple's credibility forever. then there's also 3) because it's not secret. if i want to, i can go look at apple's copyrighted roms in a mac, so they're not keeping any secrets. you don't even have to pry the top off the chip and use an electron microscope, you just have to read the data in memory and see if you can figure out what it means. (motorola object code isn't all *that* obscure!) yes, it's copyrighted, so i can't go selling copies, or using the copy myself, but i can see it, and disassemble it. 4) they're not asking me to trust their honesty. they're asking me to trust the quality of their assembly language programming :-), but i can see for myself what the performance, price, and crashes/day are. nsa, an organization not known for its honesty or openness, is asking me to trust them with my privacy, but they won't trust me. feh! # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15858">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15858" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 there's been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over... well, from comp.dcom.telecom: * the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at&t may not be suitable for government use, says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey. in a letter to commerce secretary brown, markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to "inadvertently increased costs to those u.s. companies hoping to serve both" the government and private markets. markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april 28. (communications daily, 4/20/93) show me a guy who's afraid to look bad, and i'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -- renee auberjonois 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15860">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15860" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs. clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps. further, how do we know clancy knows, rather than repeating what he's read or been told in the unclassified domain? on the other hand, when john aristotle phillips was a junior at princeton trying to keep from flunking physics by doing a terrific term paper, his atom bomb design was good enough that it got classified. a few of the steps were derived from social engineering (e.g. the name of the explosive), but it was fundamentally sound (and did get an a.) the pakistan embassy also called him up trying to get a copy; at the time they were lobbying the us government to get some nuclear reactors for "purely non-military" electrical power generation. # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15863">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15863" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 thats one problem that has so far been overlooked. these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys. who pays for this? if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them? will congress be forced to fund them forever? the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured. this makes the funding separate from government. it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn't catch on, the scheme breaks down, and the government is back to the drawing boards, assuming that they haven't prohibited alternatives in the meantime. in fact, maybe this should be part of the "official" system. before the government is allowed to move this past the "experimental" stage, they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption. the government is very fond of demonstration projects proving feasibility in the use of government funds for social programs--they should have to make a similar feasibility demonstration (on economic viability cum acceptance terms) for this baby as well. let's put it to the only vote that counts--a marketplace vote among those who have to pay for it. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15864">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15864" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- meeting of the uk cryptoprivacy association saturday, 8 may 1993, 1500 to be held at the offices of: 4th floor 2 grosvenor gardens london sw1w 0dh this is located at the corner of hobart place, a couple of blocks west of victoria station, and almost directly across from the dark green cabbie shelter. if you have trouble finding the place, please call the office on 071-823-6550. or, call me (russell whitaker) on my pager, 081-812-2661, and leave an informative message with the telephone number where you can be reached; i will return the call almost immediately. discussion will range from the usual general topics, such as the use of secure public key cryptosystems to protect message data, to specific topics, such as recent moves by the u.s. government to restrict choice in data privacy (reference recent discussion on usenet groups, e.g. sci.crypt and alt.security.pgp). all are invited. particularly welcome are members of the newly-formed uk community group ... the local eff-in-spirit-if-not-in-name folks. those who plan to attend should email me and let me know. all attendees are requested to bring diskettes - preferably ms-dos - with their pgp 2.+ public keys. as is usual at these gatherings, several of us will bring our laptops, and will sign public keys, subject to the usual caveats (reference the documentation for pgp 2.2, specifically files pgpdoc1.doc and pgpdoc2.doc). if you do not already have a copy of pgp 2.2 (ms-dos), and would like to have a copy of this public domain program, please bring a formatted, medium or high density 3.5 inch floppy pc diskette; you will be provided a copy of the program. of course, you might prefer to ftp a version of the program from one of the various archive sites. i suggest trying demon internet systems, which carries the full range of pgp (phil zimmerman's "pretty good privacy") implementations: directory /pub/pgp at gate.demon.co.uk. meetings are of indeterminate time. those who are interested are invited to join the rest of us at a pseudorandomly determined pub afterwards. please note: in the past few months, interested people have emailed me, requesting faqs and special information mailings. i regret that, except in very unusual cases (e.g. working press), i cannot, in a timely manner, respond to these requests. i will, however - and for the first time - do a writeup of this meeting, which i will post in various places. what i *am* willing to supply is general information on our activities for the maintainers of existing faqs, such as that for alt.privacy. faq maintainers can contact me at whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk russell earl whitaker whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk communications editor amix: rwhitaker extropy: the journal of transhumanist thought board member, extropy institute (exi) ================ pgp 2.2 public key available ======================= -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqcvagubk9bg/itj7/vxxwtpaqg0/aqampqkql7knb43dyniryudu5tixstxd2f7 k5ciwnwn/u9exzfptpgajwy91dsafx0h53rv5+lt8osnvix35qmmgbmpqojcgngj zuj2egisvfultamgmqtsltjh5x/vxmuil8sjhzrffiz3sjnkcentzrqngc7udiq6 x85instijzu= =y9gs -----end pgp signature----- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15866">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15866" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 each chip includes the following components: the skipjack encryption algorithm f, an 80-bit family key that is common to all chips n, a 30-bit serial number (this length is subject to change) u, an 80-bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip to see how the chip is used, imagine that it is embedded in the at&t telephone security device (as it will be). suppose i call someone and we both have such a device. after pushing a button to start a secure conversation, my security device will negotiate an 80-bit session key k with the device at the other end. this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip. in general, any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie-hellman public-key distribution method. once the session key k is established, the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m (digitized voice). the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values: e[m; k], the encrypted message stream, and e[e[k; u] + n; f], a law enforcement field , which are transmitted over the telephone line. the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n, all encrypted under the family key f. the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed. one very interesting thing i notice about this is that the only use of the chip key is to encode the session key for the law enforcement field. it is not used at all by the encryption algorithm. it seems like it would be possible to create a device that would be otherwise compatible, but would send out a bogus law enforcement field. this might render the device unusable with "normal" devices if there's some sort of validation involving the law enforcement field, but it could certainly be used with other such modified devices. of course, this is irrelevant if the nsa has a backdoor in the algorithm, but it does make it possible to defeat the key escrow system. wilt thou seal up avenues of ill? pay every | tom weinstein debt, as though god wrote the bill. -- emmerson | tomw@orac.esd.sgi.com 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15867">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15867" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 (i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn't that much stuff coming out of columbus :) compuserve is in columbus, oh. so are the corporate headquarters of several major insurance companies, the largest private r&d company in the world (batelle memorial institute), dcsc (the defense construction & supply center), ohio state university (one of the three largest us universities), oclc (the online college library center), and so on. you'd be amazed, columbus only *looks* like a cow town. amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15869">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15869" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i wouldn't think so. asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me. maybe so, but it's quite common. not when your talking about cryptography. there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what's in apple's patented roms. many have modems connected. how do you know all your business secrets aren't being stolen? answer: 1. because you trust apple; think again. you won't see me using apple's new signature from the finder feature. 2. because if any such attempt, however sophicsticated, came out, it would destroy apple's credibility forever. this analogy fails in its assumption that the government gives two squirts about credibility. in addition, apple's proclaimed purpose in releasing the macintosh wasn't quite the opposite: "on january 24, apple will introduce.... macintosh, and you'll see why 1984 won't be, like '1984'" so don't give me any bullshit analogies about how we trust coke not to put mind control drugs in every can to get us to buy more. in the clipper case, a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it, and we'll have assurances (maybe even from the president) that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors. while some may not have confidence in that (i am not among them), it's a lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life. one of the reasons we should be all the more suspicious. when was the last time the president wasted his time to comfort americans? just another reason to look closely at exactally what's going on. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. uni@acs.bu.edu uni@acs.bu.edu -> public keys by finger and/or request public key archives: <pgp-public-keys@pgp.iastate.edu> sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past.<>fight clinton's wiretap chip! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c <> crypto is not a crime! ask me how! 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15870">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15870" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ok, i heard a lot of talk about the nsa's infamous control over encryption export through the itar. here's a question. say i develop this great new encryption system, and i want to sell my software worldwide. the thought police then come in and say "this algorithm is a threat to national security. you will not be permitted to export it." at this point, what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway? doug holland | doug holland | anyone who tries to take away my freedom | | holland@cs.colostate.edu | of speech will have to pry it from my | | pgp key available by e-mail | cold, dead lips!! | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15871">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15871" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 let me ask you this. would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys? i wouldn't. i take it you mean president nixon, not private citizen nixon. sure. nothing i'm doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon . mr. sternlight, your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling. [ history lesson detailing 1968-74 deleted. ] nonsense! i wasn't asked if larry o'brien should trust nixon with his keys, but whether i would. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15873">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15873" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 stikes me that all this concern over the government's ability to eavesdrop is a little overblown... what can't they do today? my understanding is that they already can tap, listen, get access exc. to our phone lines, bank records, etc. etc again. well, they can't listen in on much of mine, since i already use cryptography for much of my electronic mail, and will start using it for my telephony as soon as practical. however, allow me to tell a parable. there was once a far away land called ruritania, and in ruritania there was a strange phenonmenon -- all the trees that grew in ruritainia were transparent. now, in the days when people had lived in mud huts, this had not been a problem, but now high-tech wood technology had been developed, and in the new age of wood, everyone in ruritania found that their homes were all 100% see through. now, until this point, no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on someone's home, but the new technology made this tempting. this being a civilized country, however, warrants were required to use binoculars and watch someone in their home. the police, taking advantage of this, would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going on. occassionally, they would use binoculars without a warrant, but everyone pretended that this didn't happen. one day, a smart man invented paint -- and if you painted your house, suddenly the police couldn't watch all your actions at will. things would go back to the way they were in the old age -- completely indignant, the state decided to try to require that all homes have video cameras installed in every nook and cranny. "after all", they said, "with this new development crime could run rampant. installing video cameras doesn't mean that the police get any new capability -- they are just keeping the old one." a wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the lives of the police easy, that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will, and that ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted. for instance, in a neighboring country, it had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to solve crimes. ruritania had banned this practice in spite of its expedience. indeed, "why have warrants at all", he asked, "if we are interested only in expedience?" a famous paint technologist, dorothy quisling, intervened however. she noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating should the new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards, and the law was passed. soon it was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths while speaking to each other, thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras. this had to be prevented, the police said. after all, it was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveilance. the wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed to listen in on people's homes, but dorothy quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and mutilation of children. no one in the legislature wanted to be accused of being in favor of mutilating children, but then again, no one wanted to interfere in people's rights to wear what they liked, so a compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with microphones in each room to accompany the video cameras. the wise man lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solved by the old lip reading technology, but it was too late -- the microphones were installed everwhere. however, it was discovered that this was insufficient to prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities, because some of them would cleverly speak in languages that the police could not understand. a new law was proposed to force all citizens to speak at all times only in ruritanian, and, for good measure, to require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones. "after all", dorothy quisling pointed out, "they might be using the opportunity to speak in private to mask terrorist activities!" terrorism struck terror into everyone's hearts, and they rejoiced at the brulliance of this new law. meanwhile, the wise man talked one evening to his friends on how all of this was making a sham of the constitution of ruritania, of which all ruritanians were proud. "why", he asked, "are we obligated to sacrifice all our freedom and privacy to make the lives of the police easier? there isn't any real evidence that this makes any big dent in crime anyway! all it does is make our privacy forfeit to the state!" however, the wise man made the mistake of saying this, as the law required, in ruritanian, clearly and distinctly, and near a microphone. soon, the newly formed ruritanian secret police arrived and took him off, and got him to confess by torturing him. torture was, after all, far more efficient than the old methods, and had been recently instituted to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes, which dorothy quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age of plenty and joy. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15874">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15874" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 arthur melnick posts an interesting first-hand message about his nea algorithm. though i have no reason to disbelieve anything he says, i want to clarify one point: he says he has no connection with the nsa. if he was part of an "nsa plot", of course he'd say that. now i don't think he is. but the level of some discussion here is of that sort, and very quickly we reach the point where it's impossible to continue rationally discussing some issues. "i am not a crook" "well, if you were, of course you'd say that" or the ever popular favorite: "please prove the following negative." i don't know what to do with such messages, so i have taken to ignoring david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15875">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15875" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 for some reason my fingers want to type "probably" cause whenever i want to say "probable" cause. sorry for any confusion in the previous message. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15877">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15877" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license. (others will correct me if this is inaccurate.) glad to! you are correct, it is illegal to send cryptographic code (and lots of other things) out of the country without a license. however, every us citizen has a general export license, allowing export of lots of things, including constitutionally protected speech. this has the effect that it is legal for us citizens to export some things which it is illegal for a us corporation to export without first obtaining a license. dunno if you'd get one for the particular code you have; the only way to find out is to apply for a license. nope, talk to a good lawyer in the area of export law. but, in general, the government has to have a very good national security case to try prevent the export of anything you personally might wish to publish. (yes, i worded that the way i did intentionally. it is a lot easier for the government to try to prevent the export of information than to charge someone with a crime after the fact. espionage is probably the only exception.) note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such a license, and what is legal to send if you don't. if you are a us citizen, you have a general license. (i am not a lawyer, so take some of this with a grain of salt. however, i have also had to swim through both itar and export regs in a few cases.) robert i. eachus with standard_disclaimer; use standard_disclaimer; function message (text: in clever_ideas) return better_ideas is... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15880">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15880" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 well, i'm not a lawyer, but from what i can tell this is completely and utterly untrue. the u.s. does not have an official secrets act. we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as a government official, contractor, etc, and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information. however, if they sell you the chip, i can't see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal. in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish, but there are certainly exceptions. if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon, it is classified. as i understand the law, nuclear weapons design is _automatically_ classified even if you do the work yourself. i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper. oh? what about the precedent in which nuclear weapons information was published in "the progressive"? i was under the impression that the court held that prior restraint could not be used. any lawyers out perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15885">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15885" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 brings up the issue of how the escrow agent will be paid, and the fact that the government had financial leverage if they don't cooperate. it's an important issue, especially if one of the escrow agents decides they'd rather stop offering the service. i assume that if the escrow agent isn't the government, then the contract for providing escrow service would include some termination clause like returning the keys. the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured. this makes the funding separate from government. but who's the user paying the fees here, and what's the service? if the user is the government, then the funding's not separate from the government. if the user is the buyer, what's the service? keeping the key for me? no thanks - i don't need, and won't buy their service! not telling everybody my key? sounds like blackmail! if the user is the manufacturer, does the user have a choice about buying? the alternative is to just generate the key and not escrow it, which is fine - i'd certainly pay more for this kind of key than an escrowed key! face it, the escrow provider is providing a service the users don't want. the only people who want it are the government, not the users. what you're really talking about is either the government paying for the service, up front or per-year, either from general taxes, or from a special direct tax on wiretap chips, or on an indirect tax (forcing the manufacturer to pay the fee to the escrow agent.) i hope the escrow people have no way of finding out your name from your serial number, especially if the escrow is a government agency. here in new jersey, we have lots of people willing to provide that sort of services for user fees. there are people willing to keep your store from burning down for a small monthly fee, though sometimes people refuse to pay and discover that the service really was effective. if you go to a baseball game at yankee stadium, there are people who will watch your car in the parking lot for a small user fee. something could scratch the paint, after all. and what a shame if your clipper key got out! # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15886">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15886" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 what is the reason for the push on clipper? two days after the lead story here in the mercury times (murky news) there was another article on industrial espionage by the french. someone had said what can it hurt to allow the government to have continued access to our communications, they already have it. the problem is that, yes the do have access, and probably more than we realize. the government wants exclusive access to communications intercept here in the united states, cutting out other access detrimental to the national security (tm). i also doubt that a certain3 letter agency, that originated the encryption algorithm and the chip designs needs to have anything to do with the escrow system to continue their intercept effort. better yet, who owns the company doing the programming? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15887">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15887" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely. sheesh! remember the big scandal a year or two (or 3?) ago about exactly such leaks? my choice for the escow house would be the smithsonian, and someplace on the west coast. my biggest concern isn't that the escrow house could be compromised (it will be), but the fact it has been compromised will be kept secret. the keys could be kept under glass, with 24-hour c-span coverage. if you thought your key had been stolen just turn on the cable, and wait until the roving camera reachs the musuem case with your key. or if you think the c-span satellite has been compromised, take a tour of the smithsonian yourself, and view the seal on your key. sean donelan, data research associates, inc, st. louis, mo domain: sean@sdg.dra.com, voice: (work) +1 314-432-1100 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15888">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15888" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ok, i heard a lot of talk about the nsa's infamous control over encryption export through the itar. here's a question. say i develop this great new encryption system, and i want to sell my software worldwide. the thought police then come in and say "this algorithm is a threat to national security. you will not be permitted to export it." at this point, what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway? first of all, it's not the thought police, it's the export police. if you move overseas with your great thoughts in your head, write the software there, and then sell it, the us thought police probably can't do too much about it, though you might want to check with your lawyer first. however, if you write the program here, and sell it to furriners, you are now an international arms dealer and can get thrown in the clink for *many* years, especially if they decide you'd be a good example, and cuban drug dealers and fanatic middle eastern terrorists buy your stuff. (definitions of "public domain" are different for itar purposes, so if you've got a good enough lawyer who'll do your case for free after they've confiscated everything you own as evidence, you might win. but nobody wants to go first, since the stakes are _quite_ high.) # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15889">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15889" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 we are strongly opposed to the clipper/capstone chips. in a press release today, our president, dr. stephen bryen stated: "it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public. but do we not understand how the national security agency, which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying, can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u.s. government domestic spying activities." well, actually, this one's easy. it's their job. the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems. if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses, so be it. this sounds a lot like slamming the competition, not a cry for justice. these guys are way out on a limb, if i read that right. they've commited their new algorithm to silicon before it's been made public. what are they gonna do if shamir writes a paper showing how to crack the entire class of algorithms in 5 minutes with a slide rule and a pencil? if they weren't busy throwing muck to smear their competitors, i'd feel kinda sorry for 'em. still do, a little. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15892">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15892" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : from: caronni@nessie.cs.id.ethz.ch (germano caronni) : >can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run : >digital speech down 14.4k? i think it is; i've heard it's not. lets : >say 8 bit samples. would *raw* data at the corresponding sampling rate : >be usable? if not, how fancy does the compression need to be? : as far as i know isdn (call it swissnet here, and it's being plugged in) it's : 8 bit 8000hz (gives you one channel of 64kbit/sec) i guess you should not go : below a sampling rate of 6000 hz if you want to have same quality as on an : analog-line. anybody knows compression-algorithms & -factors for voice ? i've posted some info on celp coding on sci.crypt. looks like you can squeeze speech into 4000bps if you have a fast enough computer like a sparcstation (or a newton with the acorn risc machine in it :-) ) this drops the bandwidth to so low a figure that it's feasible to run speech over tcp/ip running on top of slip down a v32bis modem. not only will this let us run point to point encrypted speech, it'll let us run speech internationally over the internet if no-one stops us by getting *very* heavy about regulations. the thought of this, if the administration realised, would probably scare them shitless. now of course the trick is to develop and define a standard protocol for internet speech *damn fast*, allowing anyone who feels brave to inplement custom handheld hardware as well as us hacking it on our workstations. shouldn't be too difficult. the celp stuff is standardised, we use tcp/ip streams, and a protocol allowing silences to be used to catch up on any net lag, and also to avoid sending any data during silences (ie it's not wise to be synchronised real-time on each end because any net delays would add up to big voice-lags) as for me, i'm going to press ahead on trying this stuff as soon as i get my sparc back from being loaned out and buy the necessary microphone. it'll save me a fortune in calling my friend in texas every night :) (whether encrypted or not) you know, surely *someone* is working on this. who? it's so obvious, why doesn't it exist already? i've only seen netphone for suns and it didn't do the celp compression so was restricted to ether connections. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15893">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15893" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : from: brad@optilink.com (brad yearwood) : assume in this case the usual canard-adversary of narcotraficantes. they : probably have more cash than the kgb did, and they're probably more generous : at handing it out. it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers : and pollards for the keys, and it will be easy enough to find someone to : reverse-engineer the chip (unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and : effective). if the administration *really* believes big-time drug dealers are the threat (personally i thought it was the cia and the air force that did all the real drug shipping :-) ) then they *ought* to take this seriously: unlike the kgb, drug dealers can make a most convincing argument for cooperation: "help us and we'll be nice and give you some money, don't help us and we'll start cutting off your favourite body parts" after all, it was probably an argument like that that persuaded jack ruby to shoot oswald in full view of the police. life in jail probably seems much more preferable to most people than several weeks of something nasty followed by no life at all... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15894">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15894" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : at the company i worked for previously, i received a file that was des encryped : and the person that had sent it, went on vaction. rather than wait two weeks : i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time. it only took two(2) : days to crack the file. no, i don't have any faith in des. : a.g. fun! three questions: 1) what hardware did you use? 2) when you found the key, was there anything about it that was special that meant you had been lucky to find it early? (like the first 30 bits all being 0) 3) ... or did you mean a dictionary attack rather than a binary key attack? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15895">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15895" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip, any tactic is fair. this is pernicious nonsense! david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of since the fbi's account of what happened is being contradicted on an increasingly frequent basis by other officials investigating the fire, the most pernicious idea of all is believing that big brother is going to be well-behaved with respect to cryptographic keys. in light of the very serious allegations with respect to the doj selling software to various other intelligence services, what do you suppose the chances are of some future doj selling escrowed keys to business firms? trusting the government to be honest and fair is putting the fox in charge of protecting the chickens. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15896">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15896" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 about 50 people so far have asked, "once the fbi gets your clipper keys, won't they be able to read all your future and past traffic?" there has been no response from nist, nsa, ms. denning, mr. hellman, or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer. this is troubling. didn't nsa think about this? or is it a feature, and they thought we wouldn't notice? i would have thought that by now they would have responded with something of the form, "well, that won't be a problem because ...." very curious. lynn grant 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15899">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15899" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 about 50 people so far have asked, "once the fbi gets your clipper keys, won't they be able to read all your future and past traffic?" there has been no response from nist, nsa, ms. denning, mr. hellman, or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer. this is troubling. the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don't charge you with a crime within, say, 90 days, they have to buy you a new phone. if they do charge you, and you are found innocent, they have to buy you a new phone. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15901">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15901" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 (alt.security.clipper added, to keep them informed of this issue) : the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you : and don't charge you with a crime within, say, 90 days, they have to buy you : a new phone. : if they do charge you, and you are found innocent, they have to buy you a : new phone. yes, but will they buy you a ticket on a time machine to allow you to go back and use the phone with the new key instead of the phone whose key they obtained? it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time 0 also unlocks messages recorded (by whomever) at earlier times. the announcement was silent on this. the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained (by the authorities, by divorce lawyers, by the mafia, by the fbi, by lost or stolen backup tapes, by the nsa, etc.). all previous conversations are unsecure. (session keys are negotiated, but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security. no doubt more details will emerge.) so, the loss of a key, whether one is guilty or innocent, may mean a lot more than merely replacing the phone. sort of like saying to someone, "oh, i copied your diary. but i'll buy you a new one." and the system, if made mandatory (as i expect), will make such storing of conversations much easier, i fear. for one thing, the transmission of the escrow key field acts as a clear signal to anyone listening, a kind of "caller id" and "callee id" on a grand scale. also, the phone companies may not care as much about protecting the privacy of the calls, as they perceive them all to be useless encrypted junk. (this is a bit of a reach, i know, suggesting that the clipper will make security more lax...). anyway, still lots of issues unresolved. -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15902">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15902" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : we would like to keep it that way. thats the point. by reacting : strongly and forcefully now, we will assure that we continue to remain : free. you cannot overreact to a threat like this. the worst that : happens if we overreact is that we waste time and effort. the worst that : happens if we underreact is tyranny. i prefer overreaction myself. : only through centuries of overreaction have we managed to maintain : ourselves in this state of even moderate freedom. i suggest that : overreacting now and in the future is a good thing. perry is right on target here. careful analysis of the clipper chip announcement reveals that is *not* likely to remain "voluntary" for very long...the cost of the system, the cost of generating and _then storing_ the escrow keys, and the admitted security holes pretty much make the clipperphone a loser. strong crypto will outcompete it, if strong crypto is allowed. this is the battle we face. we had rumblings of this totalitarian key registration thing a while back, and now the other shoe has dropped. the firestorm of commentary and criticism this time around reveals the almost immediate revulsion this wiretap chip (and automatic caller id and callee id, don't forget!) generates in everyone, or almost everyone, who hears about this is a battle we can't afford to lose. -tim may timothy c. may | crypto anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, w.a.s.t.e.: aptos, ca | black markets, collapse of governments. higher power: 2^756839 | public key: pgp and mailsafe available. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15903">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15903" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 you obviously haven't read the information about the system. the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified. the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units. i am against the proposal, but lets be accurate in our objections. do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read. the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units, but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow. this necessity raises the stakes in favor of a criminal's coercing or colluding use of some other person's clipper phone. i will restate my assumptions more explicitly and amplify my argument. the original title perhaps should have been "distinction between legal and illegal cipher systems considered harmful", but "clipper considered harmful" is not inaccurate, and is more eye-catching in the current context. assumptions: 1. clipper is made available. 2. laws are passed to make use of cipher systems other than clipper illegal (either on radio systems, or on any common carrier system). these laws also include enforcement authority to listen across the relevant radio spectrum (or other medium), characterize signals, validate clipper wrappers, detect probable use of non-clipper ciphers, and make such detection a cause for further action. 3. for escrowed keys to be useful, some specific clipper chip must be associated with a suspected criminal. this means that at a minimum some association between the common carrier's unique phone id (esn) and the clipper chip serial number n will be stored in a government database. an observed pairing of n and esn other than the one recorded raises a red flag. 4. to reduce ordinary fraud, the cellphone system which offers clipper will also be constructed with an esn mechanism much more tamper-proof and much less spoofable than today's cellphones. 5. criminals want inscrutable communications. some criminals are not entirely stupid or ignorant, and will figure out both that clipper cellphones offer excellent security in normal circumstances, and that they offer no security against law enforcement once a (presumably legitimate) wiretap order exists. they will also figure out that the wiretap order must necessarily be against a specific cellphone, because each one has a unique unit key. 6. criminals do not want to call attention to themselves. because they are not stupid or ignorant (or because they read netnews), and because they know that their open use of a non-clipper cipher is likely to be detected, they will generally avoid using non-clipper ciphers directly on some monitorable/tappable channel. they know that do so would raise a red flag, putting a given cellphone (if not a given person) under immediate suspicion. 7. it is impractical to reverse engineer skipjack, discover family key f, and construct a functional clone of a clipper chip. by #2, #3, #4, and #7 it will be very difficult to spoof a given clipper phone without immediate detection. because it is difficult to obscure one's association to a specific phone by reprogramming or changing chips around, the criminal will be motivated to find an intact phone which is associated with someone else. a non-stupid criminal will conclude that they can have clipper-secure communications, at least for some limited time t, if they buy, beg, borrow, or steal use of someone's phone in a way that prevents that person from reporting compromise of the phone for at least time t. the encrypted communications might have been recorded, and thus be retrievable later, but the criminal can delay, and quite likely evade, discovery by destroying or abandoning the phone before t elapses. it would be unusual for an innocent person to volunteer use of their clipper phone to someone else. the honest subscriber doesn't want to pay someone else's bill, and he doesn't want to fall under suspicion. this leaves two sources of clipper phones for criminal use: coercion and collusion. coercion first. theft bears a relatively low risk, but also sometimes a low time until detection (a few minutes if a phone is stolen from a car parked in front of a store, a couple of weeks if a phone is stolen from someone who is away on vacation). criminal commerce is likely to arise in stolen clipper phones, with phones coming from risk-inured poor criminals, and cash coming from risk-averse wealthy criminals. someone who is extraordinarily motivated to gain a day or two of undetected communication (like a terrorist) could kill a person or hold them hostage. the limited time (before detection) that a coerced phone is useful means that continuing criminal enterprises require a continuing supply of freshly coerced phones. there would also be created a collusive commerce between relatively wealthy criminals, and ignorant or don't-care patsies who need money, and who will submit to being paid in return for subscribing to clipper phone service for someone else's use. criminals will learn that it is more to their advantage to coerce use of a clipper cellphone than it is to apply a non-clipper cipher to a normal cellphone. they will call much less attention to themselves (or at least to their stolen phone) this way. the fact of a phone's use being coerced must first be reported before it can be identified as an interesting phone, and have its keys obtained from escrow. clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super-encryption. an automated full-system surveillance mechanism (quite feasible across radio bandwidth) which knows family key f, can validate clipper wrappers and n:esn associations, but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super-encryption, unless it knows all unit keys, which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces, upon specific wiretap-like order. whereas a criminal's use of any cipher within a normally cleartext medium would stand out, a criminal's use of a non-clipper cipher within a clipper medium would be very difficult to detect, even ex post facto in bulk recordings, as long as the association between criminal and specific clipper chip is fractured. if you make use of this other cipher illegal per se, then you can charge the criminal with this (if you can identify the true criminal - he'll be using someone else's phone), but you'll have no evidence to help you against whatever traditional crime he might have been planning. you will not even be able to detect that unusual (encrypted) communications are occurring until you identify specific phones and obtain their keys from escrow. the gangster and terrorist are thus arguably more, not less, secure than they were before clipper came along. i therefore consider clipper harmful because: 1. it does not provide absolute privacy to the honest public against aggressive or dishonest government. 2. if other ciphers are proscribed, it engenders new types of direct criminal threat to the honest public. 3. it provides an extraordinarily effective mechanism for criminals to hide their use of some other cipher, making it more difficult than ever even to gain notice that unusual communications are occurring and that plans for some criminal act might be in progress. 4. if other ciphers are proscribed, lazy investigators and prosecutors are more likely to pursue the easily quantifiable cipher-use crime than they are the traditional and directly harmful crimes which key escrow is claimed to help against. 5. if other ciphers are proscribed, the stage is set for witch hunting of "illegal" cipher use. because any computer can be used as a cipher machine... brad yearwood brad@optilink.com {uunet, pyramid}!optilink!brad petaluma, ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15904">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15904" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 something that no one has discussed yet (or i missed it): the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed. only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n. what happens next, does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n, and, since a warrant was issued for the line, the fbi simply gets it? what if multiple phones are used from the same house, the fbi just asks for n1, n2, etc.? exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number, x, was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x? either a second court order (for the specific serial/key) is required (and i have seen no indication of this), or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time, so the escrow key holders are a total fake. an unrelated issue: if and when all phones always use the clipper chip, how are call-transfers going to take place?! michael golan mg@cs.princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15905">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15905" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 nonsense! i wasn't asked if larry o'brien should trust nixon with his keys, but whether i would. well, that explains it. the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother; it's the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15906">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15906" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 well, actually, this one's easy. it's their job. the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems. if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses, so be it. ah, but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government's domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate, into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15907">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15907" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 on the contrary, the entire clipper proposal is an example of the government servicing the people (in the sense of the term found in the sentence, "the farmer paid $100 to rent a bull to service his cows.") 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15908">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15908" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive :branch and approved by the judicial branch, it seems clear that one :of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the :judicial branch. i suggest the supreme court, or, regionally, the :courts of appeal. more specifically, the offices of their clerks. i've got a better idea. we give one set to the kgb c/o washington embassy, and the other set to the red chinese. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15909">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15909" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : i've been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available : in some form on ebcdic machines. don't encourage them. let ebcdic machines die an honorable death :) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15911">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15911" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : there are chips which perform the voice compression/expansion. they can't : be expensive, because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the : pbx line cards, as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses : voice-grade circuits to save the cost of long-distance, leased t1s or : satellite circuits. : i can't remember the generic term for these chips. my impression is that : this was a big deal 10 years ago, but circuits have gotten so cheap that : it isn't done much now. codecs. they have to get about 6:1 compression on 8 bit samples to squeeze them down v32bis. i played around with the lossless 'shorten' program last night, but it only managed 2.5:1. i've got some specimen celp code but it's not obvious that it runs in real time; i think it's just proof-of- concept code, and i have some mucking about with file formats to do before i can put my own sample through it. looks like the current option is to use a voice-mail modem with built-in dsp chip to do this in hardware. that means two modems for a system, putting the cost at $600 upwards. ouch. maybe soon we'll be able to do it in software on high-powered games consoles - isn't the 3do an acorn risc machine inside? that cpu runs like shit off a shovel... and will be nicely mass-market too. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15913">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15913" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : does dorothy denning read this group? if not, is someone on the group : forwarding questions like these to her, or martin hellman, or anyone else : who's seen more details about the chip? of course she does; it's just she's been toasted so often for being an nsa patsy that she's keeping her head down. you can always mail her directly as denning@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu, denning@cs.cosc.georgetown.edu or denning@cs.georgetown.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15914">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15914" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i thought it was quite difficult to record a modem session at some intermediate point on the line. maybe they have taken a crash course in data comms and have a unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later. this would still suffer from the called babt. it has been stated, either here or in the uk.telecom group, that they will not approve equipment that does encryption. i don't know if this is true or not, but this would make a good test case. peter ilieve peter@memex.co.uk you forget the obvious! if it is an *authorised* tap then it can be done at the exchange. if the exchange is *digital* then i suspect that you can auto-monitor a line and pickup the full link. therefore syncing a piggyback modem on the line would not be impossible - i suspect. mike h. (mike@avon.demon.co.uk) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15915">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15915" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i don't think mr. clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme. so, his "assurances" are of no value at al, if he gives them he just says what a panel of experts(?) told him. if i lived in the usa, i would hope those experts were not paid by the <fill here you favorite 3-letter combination>. "the doctrine of plausible deniability". no-one is going to tell him it has a back door. the nsa will assume he has the sense to work it out for himself or they wouldn't be pushing it. clinton might even *believe* the nsa when they tell him, for the record, it doesn't have a back door. and no foia request in the world will ever find it. these guys don't play by that set of rules. they have their own rule book, and no, you're not allowed to see that either. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15916">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15916" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 can people work within the system before trying to break it? examine your history books, and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic (or democratic style) governments. i think you'll only find one in over five thousand years of written history. that's not very good odds. i may be misreading you here. are you saying the american revolution wasn't a good idea because it was bad odds? i kind of doubt that any revolution, armed or otherwise, was ever started without vast amounts of failed "working within a system". a good sign of a system being not worth preserving would probably be that very inability to work within it productively. hopefully i've misunderstood. (btw, i'm not a big fan of arms myself. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15918">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15918" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 of course don't over react --- but don't under react. better yet: act. * john w. luther | anybody who mistakes my * * jluther@cs.umr.edu <-best for email | opinions for umr's just * * 71140.313@compuserve.com <-$$$$$! | doesn't know umr. * 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15919">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15919" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 and the fox has rabies too. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> <sig being revised> 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15920">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15920" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low. law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government, and for that to happen they have to: a) have a pretty good reason, with evidence; b) use this sparingly on highest priority "pretty good reasons." david, given the proposition of the first first paragraph, the conclusion of the second *should* read: thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded legally by the government [...] which completely overturns your argument. to not see this requires an unbelievable degree of stupidity or naivete on your part. perhaps it's time for you to own up and say which spook agency you work for... - --paul -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqcvagubk9h5ymv14asak9pnaqhupqp/vj3fnzrljlixkju2bndc0mzeh1im2vm1 b3kohisgjhkmpa6y8f/mpj2fizdnckresnujq8tc4kqqjppdg/rkydr7w4hka/z2 jfwt8bxznrwvqjac539lgyonena8dc6hcpg4zkty8q4hbzohns8/etmhaopxj1pj jd8zuw3aizk= =y8ct -----end pgp signature----- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15921">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15921" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 good points. in addition, i would point out that now is one of the best times to fight this political battle, with much of the opposition in disarray -- an fbi director (sessions) on his way out, an attorney general (reno) who has only been in long enough to find the office coffee machine two tries out of three (and, between slow confirmations and clinton's saturday night massacre, hasn't much of a staff in place). if we really get lucky, both of the above will be too busy trying to keep their feet from being held to the waco fire to spend much effort insisting on their alleged right to spy on the american people. "i swear to you, we aren't finished yet." -- james t. kirk, st iii 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15922">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15922" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 forwarded from libernet@dartmouth.edu: to: libernet@dartmouth.edu clipper tm chip is a registered trademark of intergraph corp. the so-called clipper chip which was recently mentioned here and in other media with respect to encryption is being used in violation of that trademark. the intergraph clipper chip is a unix microprocessor, originally developed by fairchild semiconductors, and has no relationship to the encryption chip whatsoever. i mention this here with the hope that someone reading this will intercede before the group alt.privacy."clipper" is established. --al date 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15923">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15923" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 <sl3b+@andrew.cmu.edu> says: hi everybody! does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public? get them while you can! some pointers would be greatly appreciated. i believe fisher(sp?) international, makers of the watchdog(tm) pc security package offers a hardware implementation of des as an add-on to that package. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15926">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15926" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : at the company i worked for previously, i received a file that was : des encryped : and the person that had sent it, went on vaction. rather than wait : two weeks : i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time. it only : took two(2) : days to crack the file. no, i don't have any faith in des. then it was either _really_ good luck or you had some _very_ fast machine. des has 2^56 possible keys, each two of which are simply to convert into each other, so you have to expect 2^54 trial encryptions in the mean case, assuming known plaintext. 2^54 / 2 / (24*60*60) / 1000000 is ca. 104250. so you must have managed to do 104250 encryptions per microsecond. ce infosys builds a very fast des chip that manages 2 (!) encryptions per microsecond. yes, i'm not very seriously bothered about the security of des yet; though you might prefer to use triple des or idea, both of which use more key bits. joerg czeranski email czeranski@rz.tu-clausthal.de osteroeder strasse 55 smtp injc@[139.174.2.10] w-3392 clausthal-zellerfeld voice (at work) +49-5323-72-3896 germany voice (at home) +49-5323-78858 to obtain pgp public key, finger injc@sun.rz.tu-clausthal.de, or email me. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15927">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15927" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i think this didn't get posted before (i've been reading usenet for the longest time, but never had much interest in posting until recently). this is what i typed before: i have written mr. limbaugh before, and i loathe to use the name rush in association with him, because he is unworthy to have a name in common with some of the greatest musicians in our time, the band, rush. his address, as some of you wanted is: 70277.2502@compuserve.com he has been to wrapped up in himself to respond to me, but maybe some of you will have better luck. :) bye! g'bye for now... -=i tree i=- a.k.a. andy novak anovak@titan.ucs.umass.edu anovak@twain.ucs.umass.edu g'bye for now... -=i tree i=- a.k.a. andy novak anovak@titan.ucs.umass.edu anovak@twain.ucs.umass.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15929">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15929" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the clipper chip's user key is formed by: r1 = e[d[e[n1;s1];s2];s1] r2 = e[d[e[n2;s1];s2];s1] r3 = e[d[e[n3;s1];s2];s1] why is the triple-encrytion used? is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat a potential keysearch? (if so, why use 80 bit keys?) not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm, it's not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s1,s2. why are n1, n2, and n3 formed as they are? it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm, to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way. where do the 34-bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n1,n2,n3 come from? are they changed from chip to chip, or session to session? (even if they're published in the ny times, if skipjack is resistant to known-plaintext attacks, when using triple- encryption, then there's no break in security. but why allow that kind of weird format? if those three 34-bit values are truly-random bits, then maybe it's used to ensure that a known-plaintext attack on skipjack, if it exists, can't be easily used to derive s1 and s2 for a whole production run of these chips....) i can't answer all our questions in detail, but i can take a stab at the form the operations that compute r1, r2, and r3 is, of course, the famous ``triple encryption'' suggested for use with des. it's much stronger than a single encryption, and has an effective key length of 160 bits. for reasons that were discussed when des was first standardized, a simple double encryption would not have the same strength. triple encryption has been used by ibm since more or less the beginning to encrypt other keys. it's recommended for anything of very high value. and i think we can agree that the r_i and s_i fit that description. why n_1, n_2, and n_3? well, you need different plaintext values. i have no idea if they'll be disclosed or not. at a guess, they're constructed so that they differ in as many bit positions as possible. a goo cryptosystem will scramble things a lot with even a 1-bit change -- but the values of n in a series will have fairly similar bit patterns, and there might, conceivably, be a weakness. so the n_i values are -- and i'm guessing -- chosen to increase the hamming in any event, i'm quite convinced that one cannot go back to the s_i from the u_i, let alone u. (observe: if the nsa has u, they don't need to find s_i. but even if they do, they can't get u_1 and u_2. in theory, they should never even see those values, even with a warrant.) the real question, i think, is why use this scheme at all, as opposed to a hardware random number generator. my answer is that this is *much* more verifiable. look -- suppose that nsa, nist, the aclu, the eff, and the nra combined to build a *really* good random number generator, and that it passed every test you could think of. when you come back next week to program some more chips, does it still work that well? have any components changed in value? have the components been changed out from under you? does it still work well the in the presence of a focused microwave beam that tends to bias it towards selecting 1 bits? yes, you can run detailed statistical tests on it again, but that's hard. consider, on the other hand, a software solution. you bring your own floppies with you, you can run cryptographic checksums, etc. it's a lot easier to verify that the software is unchanged, in other words. (yes, i can think of ways to cheat software, too. i think that they're a lot harder.) there are three issues with clipper. the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working. my answer, with one significant exception, is yes. i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be, assuming that their real objectives are as stated: to permit wiretapping, under certain carefully-controlled circumstances, with a minimum risk of abuse. (the exception is that u exists outside of the chip, on a programming diskette. that's seriously wrong. u_1 and u_2 should be loaded onto the chip separately.) to those who disagree (and i don't claim my answer is obvious, though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper -- i had originally blasted the scheme), i issue this invitation: assume that you were charged with implementing such a system, with complete regard for civil rights and due process. what would you do differently? in answering this question, please accept nsa's fundamental assumptions: that both strong cryptography against outsiders, and the ability to wiretap *some* domestic users, is necessary. (if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions, do it in the context of the last issue i present below. right here, i'm discussing *just* the technical aspects. and no, i don't by any means claim that just because something can be done, it should be.) the second issue is whether or not this whole architecture is actually going to be used. just because clipper chips are made this way doesn't mean that that's the only way they'll be made. maybe the nsa will substitute its own chips between the programming facility and the shipping dock. and they'll generate bogus warrant requests, so that the escrow agents don't wonder why they've never called. (``sorry, guys; all them terrorists and drug dealers and pedophiles seem to have bought triple-des phones instead. who'd 'a' thunk it?'') i have no answer to this question, and at the moment, i don't see a way of answering it. those concerns are part of my reasoning in my answer to the final question, below. the third, and most serious issue, is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law. i think that the answer is no, but it's not a no-brainer. i'm a civil libertarian, not a libertarian, for reasons that i explained at great length on the net in the elder days, and that i don't have the energy to repeat now. but that means that i'm willing to accept that some laws are necessary, so long as they respect the essential rights of individuals. the government already has the ability and -- in our system -- the right to issue search warrants, and while that power has certainly been abused, it's also been used quite properly and fairly in other cases. is key escrow sufficiently different? i think so -- but again, it's not an easy question for me. (it is easy for libertarians to answer, of course, since clipper is completely alien to much of the rest of their (oft-admirable) philosophy. and it's also easy for those who give their unreserved trust to government, a group i'm much more distant from.) --steve bellovin 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15935">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15935" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 something that no one has discussed yet (or i missed it): the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed. only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n. what happens next, does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n, and, since a warrant was issued for the line, the fbi simply gets it? what if multiple phones are used from the same house, the fbi just asks for n1, n2, etc.? exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number, x, was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x? either a second court order (for the specific serial/key) is required (and i have seen no indication of this), or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time, so the escrow key holders are a total fake. two safeguards: 1. the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies, and associate it with a particular court order; 2. if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely. it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered. putting it another way, this question is not very different from the pre-clipper question "what's to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead?" david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15939">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15939" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 <> somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this. <that was probably me. <i meant only that nobody has overreacted yet. it seemed to me that <jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting, and i <vehemently disagree. i see a lot of talk, but not much action. <i see now that i misunderstood jerry's position. <> the reason is very simple: how many people do you want to die in a riot? <> in a new civil war? <> everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it, and i'm worried <> that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens <> and paper. <not this bunch. they'll just bitch on the net for a while, and <then go back to lurking. <> can people work within the system before trying to break it? examine your <> history books, and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic <> (or democratic style) governments. i think you'll only find one in over <> five thousand years of written history. <actually, it's not quite that bad, but it's close. i think everyone would just as soon work within the system. the presence of the possibility of using the bullet box instead of the ballot box is supposed to be a deterrent - by keeping the price of massive abuse unacceptable. however, governments being what they are, sure would like to remove that deterrence, which will make the need for armed citizens all the more great (you don't need 'em till you don't have 'em). then i think we can be more accurately called 'subjects' instead of 'citizens'. the idea of the people being sovereign over the government is sure not in vogue in the beltway these days, that is for sure... the administration is saying "we know best. we will tell you what you need, or don't need..." "after, that old-fashioned anachronism called the bill of rights is not needed in these 'enlightened times'... <look, we (collectively) have the power to throw the bums out, but we <don't use it. we clearly don't need to go burning things down, but we not if the government has its way: there are eight bills before congress that will either ban, tax exhorbitantly, or register all useful weapons in the hands of the unconnected us subject. can you say $200.00 just for a box of cartridges for practice? one of the current administrations top priority items is to disarm all who are not well-connected, or that work for the government. <clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out. <unfortunately, the bums have learned to target only small groups of <people at a single time, so the masses won't react and throw them out. <eventually, the masses will react, unless the bums cease their <relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy. <the sooner it happens, the less the damages will be. i don't want to <live in a war zone, either -- i want to see the bums thrown out before <they do some *real* damage. another tactic is to toss out so many outrages at once that nobody can give justice to them all. like is being done right now. <lyle transarc 707 grant street <412 338 4474 the gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15940">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15940" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 steve bellovin writes a well-thought-out and nearly persuasive article about why the clipper (are we still calling it clipper today, or have they figured out a non-infringing word yet?) protocol is almost as good as one can do given their marching ordes. i issue this invitation: assume that you were charged with implementing such a system, with complete regard for civil rights and due process. what would you do differently? in answering this question, please accept nsa's fundamental assumptions: that both strong cryptography against outsiders, and the ability to wiretap *some* domestic users, is necessary. i'll accept the second assumption only for the sake of argument. in my view the primary remaining flaw is that the encryption algorithm is secret, leading to suspicion that there is a back door. without complete disclosure this suspicion cannot be dispelled, no matter how many trusted experts are allowed to look at it in isolation. is it possible to do this whole thing with a public algorithm? the only concern i've seen with making skipjack public is that someone could build clipperphones without registering the keys. assume f can really be kept secret as the government assumes. then as part of the initial connection, a clipperphone executes a protocol with the pseudophone to demonstrate that they both know f. for example, the initiating phone picks a number q and sends e[q; f]. the receiver sends back e[q+1; f], and the initiator sends back e[q+2; f] to demonstrate that her first packet wasn't just a random 64-bit block. repeat in the opposite direction with another q so it can't be defeated by somebody building up a library of sequential numbers by remembering responses and using those responses as the initial numbers of subsequent challenges. this way clipperphones will talk only to other clipperphones. of course the pseudo company can build their own proprietary skipjack phone, but the presidential fact sheet implies that they won't get approval for it without equivalent key escrow. what's wrong with this picture? it depends of f staying secret and on skipjack being resistant to cryptanalysis, but the government appears to believe in both of these. even if the particular q&a i suggest has some flaw, i imagine there's a zero-knowledge-proof protocol that doesn't. smb says: the third, and most serious issue, is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law. agreed. my view, and you can quote me: if it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well. jim gillogly hevensday, 3 thrimidge s.r. 1993, 20:48 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15941">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15941" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 there is a description of something called a "fair crypto system" in the may 1993 issue of byte, p. 134, attributed to mit professor silvio micali. the way it works is as follows: you generate your private key s, and break it up into pieces s1, s2, s3, s4, and s5, such that (s1 + s2 + ... + s5) mod p = s. you give each piece s1, s2, etc. to a different escrow agency. the agencies each compute g^sn mod p, and forward the result to the public key telephone book keeper. the public key telephone book keeper multiplies all the g^sn mod p, reduces the result to mod p, and this will be the user's public key. now, if there were several hundered recognized escrow agencies, and the user could give a piece of the key to each of the ones he trusted, the result would be something of an improvement over the proposed clipper system. i still don't think key escrow is a good idea, for both philosophical and security reasons, but i do offer this suggestion simply to determine whether escrow advocates are at all interested in considering alternatives in good faith, or whether the goal is to insure the use of only two agencies selected for spinelessness in the face of official requests. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15942">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15942" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if the crooks use an innocent person's clipper phone on the tapped line there's no problem. the feds don't care whose phone instrument is used, just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line. they get the serial number, get the keys, and they are in business. so, you admit that clipper opens the doors wide for the following scenario: feds: we need the keys to joe blow's phone. escrow agent: joe blow? you have a warrant to tap his line? feds: well, no, but we have a warrant to tap carlos "slime-devil" gonzales' line, and our tap shows that mr. gonzales is using mr. blow's phone. escrow agent: well, ok.... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15943">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15943" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 though i think this an overstatement, it does contain a grain of truth. it's drug dealers, spies, terrorists, and organized crime figures (assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge) who need to be watched, not law-abiding citizens. don't tell me; tell the feds. they, not i, need to get a clue about this. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15944">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15944" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if the crooks use an innocent person's clipper phone on the tapped line there's no problem. the feds don't care whose phone instrument is used, just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line. they get the serial number, get the keys, and they are in business. no clipper chip to person association is ever needed. yeah, but who wants to start a pool on the first person arrested mistakenly and has their life turned upside-down because some law enforcement agency *does* make a chip::person association? i wonder if there are any plans to keep these records (e.g. encode the serial number into the upc scanned at k-mart along with the credit card info, voila.) at least your phone number tends to only locate to your house or whatever (i.e. to be coming from your telephone number the person likely is in your house etc.), plus or minus some shenanigans of but i'd hate to think of these guys getting the clipper id, recording the conversation, then doing a quick cross-lookup and your name comes up as owner of that id (mistakenly, maybe you sold the phone at a garage sale or the phone was stolen from your car or whatever.) they might only know who one side of the conversation is, for example. anyone who thinks the govt is forbidden by law to cross-correlate such databases loses two points. first, law enforcement agencies can of course do this. second, they're only forbidden from budgeting any money for it. the irs, for example, does do this anyhow. they just don't spend any money on it so it's (technically) legal i guess. instead they probably trade little favors with companies like mastercard (if you're the irs i'll bet you have a *lot* of opportunities to trade favors with major corps for their databases.) i know, an irs guy read an amazing list off to me (from his screen, i could hear him typing to pull up each screen) once on the phone during a dispute i had with them (to intimidate me, actually, not much of a dispute, i didn't particularly disagree, but for some reason this fellow wanted to play tough guy with me, i hope he's better now.) amazing stuff he had at his finger tips. be afraid. -barry shein software tool & die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs purveyors to the trade | voice: 617-739-0202 | login: 617-739-wrld 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15945">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15945" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 if the crooks use an innocent person's clipper phone on the tapped line there's no problem. the feds don't care whose phone instrument is used, just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line. they get the serial number, get the keys, and they are in business. no clipper chip to person association is ever needed. celular phones........... 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15946">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15946" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time 0 also unlocks messages recorded (by whomever) at earlier times. the announcement was silent on this. the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained (by the authorities, by divorce lawyers, by the mafia, by the fbi, by lost or stolen backup tapes, by the nsa, etc.). all previous conversations are unsecure. (session keys are negotiated, but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security. no doubt more details will emerge.) it is completely clear. you have to assume that each byte that was encrypted by this 'clipper chip' has been compromised. some people wondered, why denning, hellman and others did not respond, when asked what would be done about such compromised phones, or if compromise could not be restricted in time. (i did too) let us just assume that a) they do not know and b) those who know don't tell and c) they do not care. it seem's to be an 'other person's problem' ... instruments register only through things they're designed to register. space still contains infinite unknowns. pgp-key-id:341027 germano caronni caronni@nessie.cs.id.ethz.ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15947">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15947" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 how fast do the fastest modems go? the shannon limit for voice lines is likely somewhere around 25kbps. we are rapidly approaching it. the fastest affordable full-duplex modems currently on the market are v32bis, which is 14400bps. how far can voice be compressed? celp manages to sound decent at 4800 bps. in theory, if you built a speech recognition system that turned voice into ascii, and a perfect synthesis system on the other end that sounded just like the person you were speaking to, you could get it down to the information content of the speech. with various kinds of lpc, you can get it down to 2400 bps or prehaps even less, at which point it sounds horrible. 4800 bps is more than adequite for our purposes. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15948">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15948" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices. the japanese had simply intercepted it. so my friend, the computer systems admin, came up with a solution. he started sending the data out double-block-encrypted with des. two days after this new distribution plan was implemented, the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents. they told him to "knock it off". the president gave in, since his company did a considerable business with the federal government. now, if the government wasn't monitoring the communications, how would they even know that the encryption system was installed? how can you be sure the two visitors were really government agents? --john john flanagan ||"i believe in my theories, johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu || they give me a feeling of u. of hawaii, dept. of physics & astro.|| security, and, they inflate 2505 correa rd., honolulu, hi 96822 || my ego enormously." --a. abian 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15949">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15949" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hell, just set up a spark jammer, or some other _very_ electrically-noisy as i've noted, you can likely get around that with a directional sensor. phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15952">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15952" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 some countries have laws about importing crypto gear--i believe the u.s. does. without a license the above scheme won't work (at least not legally) in such countries, including at least france and the u.s. bzzt! wrong. the us does not have crypto import laws. derek atkins, mit '93, electrical engineering and computer science secretary, mit student information processing board (sipb) mit media laboratory, speech research group warlord@mit.edu pp-asel n1nwh 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15953">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15953" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 hell, just set up a spark jammer, or some other _very_ electrically-noisy as i've noted, you can likely get around that with a directional sensor. phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme. true, but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access, but to make access more expensive (in time, money, manpower) than it is worth. remember waco! who will the government decide to murder next? maybe you? [opinions are mine; i don't care if you blame the university or the state.] 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15954">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15954" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 maybe so, but it's quite common. there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what's in apple's patented roms. many have modems connected. how do you know all your business secrets aren't being stolen? answer: 1. because you trust apple; 2. because if any such attempt, however sophicsticated, came out, it would destroy apple's credibility forever. neither (1) or (2) apply with the government, though. the feds, unlike apple, have repeatedly demonstrated that trust is an unsafe thread on which to hang your freedom. why? because unlike apple in (2), the govt has no credibility to lose. i'm serious about this. one can name just about any agency -- the irs, rtc, fcc, faa, fbi, nsa, cia -- and find numerous examples of the public trust run roughshod over. worse, one can rarely find in such examples any serious consequences to the offending agency. even supposing we could get a reign on trust somehow, there's always the matter of competence in govt agencies. can they even trust themselves? p.s. i was amused when you mentioned the usda as an example of an agency capable of managing the an escrow. i'm a consultant to the usda, and while those *i* work with are wonderful <grin>, the agency itself is ranked in industry publications such as govt computer news as one of the worst caretakers of its computer resources. recently, prime time live did a long segment on the usda's computer troubles. they are making a concerted effort to change, but intentions don't make a track record. | mel beckman | internet: mbeckman@mbeckman.com | | beckman software engineering | compuserve: 75226,2257 | | ventura, ca 93003 | voice/fax: 805/647-1641 805/647-3125 | |______________________________|_______________________________________| "you can observe a lot just by watching." -yogi bera 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15955">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15955" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 er, excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren't yet chosen, how can you say they have a "history of untrustworthy behavoir[sic]"? i'm sure each of us can think of agencies without such a history. price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years, even in damn, you're dead right! that pretty much settles it. not to worry. john hesse | a man, jhesse@netcom.com | a plan, moss beach, calif | a canal, bob. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15956">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15956" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 feds: we need the keys to joe blow's phone. escrow agent: joe blow? you have a warrant to tap his line? feds: well, no, but we have a warrant to tap carlos "slime-devil" gonzales' line, and our tap shows that mr. gonzales is using mr. blow's phone. escrow agent: well, ok.... no no no no no no no. it will go like this: feds: we need the key to phone 334re67d99. escrow: you have a warrant to tap the line phone 334re67d99 is on? feds: yes. escrow: fine, here is our key. what happens is, feds tap a line; find clipper is being used; extract serial number; get key; decipher convo. the serial number is never registered to a specific owner, it is _sent_ as part of the conversation. if i give you my clipper phone, you do not need to re-register it (mainly because it was never 'registered' to me in the first place). there are a lot of things that bother me about clipper, but this is not one of them. let's get our facts straight and not waste effort demolishing straw men. rogue@cs.neu.edu (rogue agent/sod!) the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography, but in all areas of advanced mathematics. if you'd like a circular describing these new research opportunities, just pick up your phone, call your mother, and ask for one. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15958">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15958" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured. this makes the funding separate from government. it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn't catch on, the scheme breaks down, and the government is back to the drawing boards, assuming that they haven't prohibited alternatives in the meantime. in fact, maybe this should be part of the "official" system. before the government is allowed to move this past the "experimental" stage, they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption. while i disagree strongly with you on the issue of our trusting the government, i think you have a good idea here. there is danger that, with funding coming from asset forfeitures, the government could continue to promulgate a bad product in spite of poor acceptance. making the product pay its way (as it must for private ventures) would be a good incentive for quality and listening to we, the ranters. :) | mel beckman | internet: mbeckman@mbeckman.com | | beckman software engineering | compuserve: 75226,2257 | | ventura, ca 93003 | voice/fax: 805/647-1641 805/647-3125 | |______________________________|_______________________________________| "you can observe a lot just by watching." -yogi bera 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15961">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15961" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 two safeguards: 1. the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies, and associate it with a particular court order; exactly what would that show, ?! the "law enforcement block" is easy to create, given the government key and any serial number. 2. if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely. it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered. *if* it comes to trail about the wiretap.... ya, some safegaurd that is. what if they just harass people as a result, or learn things they shouldn't have learned, etc? putting it another way, this question is not very different from the pre-clipper question "what's to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead?" the whole point of the escrow system is to prevent the fbi from making illegal wiretaps. why not have the fbi holds the keys and that's it? why do we need the escrow system at all? unless a 3rd party (a judge) verifies that the requested serial number is "right", and the fbi can get any key they like at anytime, the escrow system is useless. -- michael golan mg@cs.princeon.edu 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15962">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15962" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don't charge you with a crime within, say, 90 days, they have to buy you a new phone. if they do charge you, and you are found innocent, they have to buy you a new phone. yeah, right, and if the atf trashes your place on a bad tip they have to pay to repair it, sure. and if your computer equipment is confisticated in a raid they have to charge you with a crime within, say, 90 days. you're stretching the naivete bit on this one. love: two minds without a single thought. -- philip barry 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15963">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15963" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt. standard takes off, only people with lots of money (drug dealers) will be able to justify des stuff. he will slam clinton for this on the air. well, lets for a hypothetical put our selves in the place of the us end of the drug rings. what do we do about the cripple chip? first off, we would express disaproval to our congress critters, and remind them of the large sums of money our legitimate co.s provide to their campain coffers. we would also let them know via the 'other' channels that a) their income is about to take a hit, and b) their health may not be too good either. but just in case, the next obvious step to take is to buy mycotoxic and vlsi! yeah, free enterprise at work. :-) now they have the cripple in their pockets, literaly as well as figurativly. tough about the masses though. ~paul 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15964">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15964" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i am both new to this news group and to the net. i am facinated by the things i have heard about the pgp encryption program. does anybody out there know where i might get a version of this program that runs under windows 3.1, ms-dos, unix w/source? as of this writting i have no unix access and am running on a nifty windows implamentation of uucico. thanks in advance! \jeff hupp |internet: jhupp@shockwave.win.net \ |9797 medowglen, apt. 1807 |ad: contract programming, novell | |houston, texas 77042 | network design and support. | |voice: (713) 780 - 9419 |"the best govenment doesn't" -- me. | \_____________________________________________________________________\ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15966">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15966" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 just curious, how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls? it's not clipper, it's any encryption system. i've seen a number of designs; they generally involve a multi-line cleartext bridge. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15967">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15967" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 hell, just set up a spark jammer, or some other _very_ electrically-noisy device. or build an active farrady cage around the room, with a "noise" signal piped into it. while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment, they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition, at best. there is, of course, the consideration that these measures may (and almost cretainly will) cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems. it's a matter of balancing security versus convenience. the problem is that this will also cause "a certain amount of interference" in *all* systems within the range of the device. a long time ago i built a small jammer to dissuade my brother from using his radio alarm clock at something like 4am, which had just enough range to cover my room and his. however something powerful enough to mask all (or at least most) emissions from your computer equipment is also going to knock out half your neighbourhoods radio and tv reception. this isn't going to make you many friends. incidentally, an older-model trs80 makes a fine wideband jammer <grin> pgut1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz||p_gutmann@cs.aukuni.ac.nz||gutmann_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz peterg@kcbbs.gen.nz||peter@nacjack.gen.nz||peter@phlarnschlorpht.nacjack.gen.nz (in order of preference - one of 'em's bound to work) -- everything was so different before it all changed -- 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15968">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15968" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i've recently been reading a paper of merkle's (publixhed only on the net, i think) discussing three potential replacements for des. was anyting ever done with these? are khufu, khafre, and/or snefru still being discussed anywhere? (i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq, and i think it may also be in the sci.crypt faq.) the paper was distributed (against the wishes of the nsa - i have a copy with a few 'illicit distribution' footnotes scribbled on it :-), and eventually published at one of the crypto conferences. things were looking good. then xerox patented the algorithms. <plonk!> i don't know of anything which uses them. also, khafre was broken at a later conference and from work on a related algorithm i don't think the existing khufu would hold up too well against a converted differential cryptanalysis attack, although it can probably be changed to resist this type of attack.... [in case you don't know what the <plonk> is about, check _the new hacker's dictionary_. it's the sound someone makes when they fall to the bottom of a killfile] 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15969">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15969" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 just curious, how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls? it's not clipper, it's any encryption system. i've seen a number of designs; they generally involve a multi-line cleartext bridge. depending on the encryption system, so long as everyone has the same key, it can be done. for example, i was using "vat", which is an internet audio tool, for a conference call, and we were encrypting the session. (unfortunately, one site was doing more work, and didn't have the cpu for it, so it didn't sound all that good at a different site) so, you don't neccessarily have to have a clear-text bridge. but if you do, its totally internal to one of the sites involved in the conversation.... derek atkins, mit '93, electrical engineering and computer science secretary, mit student information processing board (sipb) mit media laboratory, speech research group warlord@mit.edu pp-asel n1nwh 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15971">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15971" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i forwarded an old posting about celp speech compression: i've since been told that the source of this is on cygnus.com in /pub/celp.speech.tar.z i'm not in a position to; any sun tcp/ip gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone by the end of the week? ;-) seriously. i think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running by the end of the week. then we ask the pgp guys to add a bytestream crypto filter. two weeks at the most. [damn, i wish i had my sparc back... i'm stuck on a 25mhz 386sx] i tried this code yesterday. on my sparcstation elc it takes over 300 seconds to compress 22 seconds' worth of speech. this means that it needs to be "optimized" by over a factor of 10 before it will be usable in even a half-duplex mode. i question whether celp is the best approach for this application. it produces great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads. we want something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high-end pc's without dsp cards. my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be a better starting point. hal finney 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15972">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15972" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 second question: why!?!? why is such a strange procedure used, and not a real rng ? this turns those s1,s2 in a kind of bottleneck for system- the only theory that makes any sense is that s1 and s2 are either the same for all chips, or vary among very few possibilities, so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers (2^30, about one billion), multiplied by the number of different s1, s2 combinations. my interpretation of denning's description is that s1 and s2 are chosen randomly by agents of the key escrow companies at the start of each 300- chip programming session. i imagine that the chips are in a carrier which will allow them all to be programmed fairly quickly - there would not be a need to transfer chips one at a time into a little pla programmer as some people have envisioned. my guess as to why this procedure is used is that basing the keys on the s1 and s2 using a specified algorithm provides an (in-principle) checkable way to verify that no back doors exist in the choice of the random numbers used to generate the keys. since we have to trust the escrow companies anyway, it does not weaken the system to have the keys be generated from random seeds entered by the escrow agents. and since the algorithm for key-generation is public (modulo skipjack secrecy) then in principle an agent could challenge the procedure, ask for s1 and s2 to be exposed, and run his own independent calculation of u1 and u2 to verify that that is what is actually being put onto the floppies. and yes, there are many ways in which failures to follow this scheme could be hard to check. the laptop probably will not really be destroyed each time. hidden cameras in the ceiling could see the s1 and s2 entered by the trusted escrow agents. back doors in the chip could allow u to be recovered. heck, each chip could be recorded with the same u, ignoring what was on the floppy. hal finney 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15973">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15973" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ok, i heard a lot of talk about the nsa's infamous control over encryption export through the itar. here's a question. say i develop this great new encryption system, and i want to sell my software worldwide. the thought police then come in and say "this algorithm is a threat to national security. you will not be permitted to export it." at this point, what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway? doug holland you would be arrested as an international arms trafficker. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15974">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15974" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 certainly, with our way-cool internet powers of organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate. as long as we are kept informed of events, anyone on this bboard can make a call to action. hopefully, we're a strong enough community to act on those calls. i realize this is a little optomistic, and i'm glad eff is working in the loop on these issues, but don't underestimate the potential of the net for political action. * i speak for myself i second the motion. all in favor? sounds great. but how would something like this be done? start up a news group for discussions of things like lobbying tecniques and how to get non-computer geeks as pissed-off as we are? |matthew cline | read in the "letters to the editor" colum of "time" | | | in response to an article on teen suicide: "people | |mpcline@cats.ucsc.edu| should be aware of the dangers of killing themselves" | 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15975">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15975" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ever since craig rowland posted his piece "new encryption" to sci.crypt there has been some discussion of our company, secured communications technologies, inc, and on encryption algorithm, nea. the classic comment on new encryption algorithms comes from friedman: "no new cypher is worth considering unless it comes from someone who has already broken a very hard one." historically, friedman has been right. it's really hard to develop a good cypher. ibm's lucifer, the precursor to des, turns out to have been fatally flawed. most of the des-like systems other than des seem to be vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis. the first two tries at public key encryption (remember knapsack cyphers?) were broken. most if not all of the machine cyphers of the electromechanical era were broken eventually. attempts in the computer era to home-brew encryption have been disappointing; the classic "a survey of data insecurity packages" in cryptologia contains analyses and breaking techniques for a few of the popular "security packages" of the late 1980s. a new, proprietary algorithm? no way. if the us is permitting general export of this thing, it has to be weak; that's how the current regulations work. currently there's a willingness to allow systems with short keys (32 bits appears to be no problem; the 56 bits of des are too many) or weak algorithms (i think word perfect qualifies under that rule) to be exported. i can't believe these guys shepherded their technique through the pto and the state department's arms control division without finding that out. john nagle p.s. no, i'm not thrilled with clipper either, but that's a different issue. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15976">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15976" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 ...the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access, but to make access more expensive (in time, money, manpower) than it is worth. true of all security sytems, i think, and it is the fundamental measure to be used in establishing a requisite security level. -= owen lewis =- tele/fax +44-(0)794-301731 eloka consultancy & project management oml@eloka.demon.co.uk pgp 2.x public key on request 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15977">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15977" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 :i tried this code yesterday. on my sparcstation elc it takes over :300 seconds to compress 22 seconds' worth of speech. this means that it :needs to be "optimized" by over a factor of 10 before it will be usable :in even a half-duplex mode. ouch! thanks for trying it. :i question whether celp is the best approach for this application. it produces :great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads. we want :something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high-end pc's :without dsp cards. my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be :a better starting point. yes. i'm not sure if my xposting to comp.speech made it to here too, but i've found that a low sample rate (3300 samples/sec at 8 bits per sample) plus the pd 'shorten' lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into 14.4k with a simdgen left over. this is *definitely* worth working on, folks. and shorten works in well under real-time. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15980">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15980" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : i am a new reader of sci.crypt i would like to obtain a copy of a : public domain program that can encrypt files, preferably using des, : that runs under ms-dos. : i would also like to obtain a program which will password protect : floppy disks, if this is possible. : thanks. : david maddison : melbourne, australia when you find out a floppy password protect program, could you e-mail me. marcus jones mt92mmj@brunel.ac.uk dept. materials technology, brunel university. pgp v2.2 public key on request 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15981">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15981" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 ah, but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government's domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate, into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping. unlike the cia, the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying. read bamford's the puzzle palace. i did. you're mistaken. nsa's communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments. here's an excerpt from the enabling charter (24 oct 52, truman) that should clarify this. the charter was declassified in about feb 1990 when an foia request made it public. mind you, i don't know that they never collect anything they're not supposed to... but spying on us citizens isn't in their charter. b. the comint mission of the national security agency (nsa) shall be to provide an effective, unified organization and control of the communications intelligence activities of the united states conducted against foreign governments, to provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto. as used in this directive, the terms "communications intelligence" or "comint" shall be construed to mean all procedures and methods used in the interception of communications other than foreign press and propaganda broadcasts and the obtaining of information from such communications by other than intended recipients, but shall exclude censorship and the production and dissemination of finished intelligence. they're also tasked with protecting the us's communications, but i haven't seen the specific enabling memo on that. i assume that's the role under which skipjack was developed. nsa is not in the standard-setting business, though -- that's why this clipper stuff came from nist, which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies, which would include nsa. jim gillogly mersday, 4 thrimidge s.r. 1993, 21:59 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15988">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15988" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 : i'd really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive :internet talk radio could be done. ideally, though, it should be a general :purpose device. it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody :should be able to balk at its widespread use. obviously, to make it easy :for homebrewers, it should use pretty common hardware. i suggest we start with the ubiquitous sun, to get a lot of momentum going. custom hardware isn't going to go anywhere until there's a user base. : anyone interested? i'll start a provisional mailing list. let :me know if you want on. count me in. i need someone at the us end to experiment on the protocols with, and i like the way you code. give me 3 weeks to move house and settle in then we'll go for it seriously... 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15993">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15993" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 of interest. i understand that on 29 april, mr. markey will be holding hearing on the questions raised in this letter. there may also be a follow-on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip, but that's not definite. thanks for posting that. i was surprised to notice, however, that one question i might have expected to be asked was not: "are all forms of strong encryption other than the clipper to be made illegal?" speaking of which, is anyone aware of whether that question *has* been asked of any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government? i have not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been reported, but i could have easily missed it. ted lee trusted information system, inc. tmplee@tis.com po box 1718 minnetonka, mn 55345 
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<instance id="sci.crypt15994">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15994" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 well, actually, this one's easy. it's their job. the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems. if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses, so be it. ah, but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government's domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate, into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping. the nsa's charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work, i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter. but as with any intrenched government agency, they will do what they think is expedent. \jeff hupp |internet: jhupp@shockwave.win.net \ |9797 medowglen, apt. 1807 |ad: contract programming, novell | |houston, texas 77042 | network design and support. | |voice: (713) 780 - 9419 |"the best govenment doesn't" -- me. | \_____________________________________________________________________\ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15995">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15995" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i did. you're mistaken. nsa's communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments. here's an excerpt from the enabling charter (24 oct 52, truman) that should clarify this. the charter was declassified in about feb 1990 when an foia request made it public. interesting! where can i get the whole thing? nsa is not in the standard-setting business, though -- that's why this clipper stuff came from nist, which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies, which would include nsa. several of the newspaper reports have made it fairly clear that the nsa did all the real work. you can't believe everything you read in the papers :-), but the package of information the nist is faxing out has so little information beyond what's widely known that it sounds like it's true. # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15997">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15997" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 "the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms" -- dorothy denning cite source, please. --mike mike godwin, | ariel rose godwin mnemonic@eff.org| born 4-15-93 at 4:34 pm in cambridge (617) 576-4510 | 7 pounds, 1.5 ounces, 19.75 inches long eff, cambridge | a new citizen of the electronic frontier 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt15999">
<answer instance="sci.crypt15999" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : ps the first posting i saw i thought was a joke in *very* bad taste. my appologies : to the person who broke the news. for what it's worth... : note: this file will also be available via anonymous file : transfer from csrc.ncsl.nist.gov in directory /pub/nistnews and : via the nist computer security bbs at 301-948-5717. : the white house i haven't been able to open an ftp session with that machine. operating under the assumption that the address was wrong, i tried using nslookup and nicname/whois... ls nist.gov [nnsc.nsf.net] host or domain name internet address ncsl server = mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov mail-gw.ncsl 129.6.48.199 ncsl server = dove.nist.gov ncsl server = ecf.ncsl.nist.gov ecf.ncsl 129.6.48.2 ncsl server = enh.nist.gov ncsl server = sunmgr.ncsl.nist.gov sunmgr.ncsl 129.6.48.12 that's all i could find about the ncsl domain...oh, and i tried an mx lookup on the machine in question, which failed. nicname/whois domain lookups at both registries failed, too. so i thought, "hey, i'm just not using the tools right" and tried calling the bbs number -- no answer. i'm probably doing something wrong...or, perhaps, the machine has been put behind a firewall. but it does look like csrc.ncsl.nist.gov has become an un-machine. if someone would try ftp'ing to it, or knows what's up, i'd really appreciate the info. scott doty <sdoty@odie.santarosa.edu> 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16003">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16003" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 |> unlike the cia, the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying. read |> bamford's the puzzle palace. we had a senior nsa scientist in cambridge at one of our workshops recently (in fact he was here when the clipper announcement was made, but we didn't learn of it till after he'd gone). he said on this point that he was forbidden by law to monitor conversations between us nationals (and he is a chap who is very precise about his choice of words). so i don't expect he'd have any qualms about monitoring a domestic us conversation if one of the parties was an alien. however it got me thinking of the navajo code talkers. just imagine: + `hello, is that the iraqi mission in new york? this is the iraqi foreign + ministry in baghdad, i am farouq hussein, us citizen, social security number + so-and-so' + `yes, indeed, this is the new york mission, mustafa jadid speaking, also a + us citizen, my social security number is such-and-such, here is our report + on activities against the satan clinton' 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16004">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16004" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 [ideas that are claimed not to work deleted...] how about putting your system inside a faraday cage? even i could build one... /jim information farming at... for addr&phone: finger a/~~\a the ohio state university jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ((0 0))____ jim ebright e-mail: jre+@osu.edu \ / \ support privacy: support encryption (--)\ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16007">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16007" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 the nsa's charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work, i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter. but as with any intrenched government agency, they will do what they think is expedent. there are other laws and directives which bear upon the subject. for example, the national computer security act of 1987 specifically directs nbs [sic] to work with nsa on developing security standards for civilian federal computers. (pick up the bill from cpsr.org; it also includes a report describing it, and some of the legislative history, including concerns about nsa's involvement.) note also that nsa is specifically charged with running the national computer security center, -- to quote the aforementioned report -- ``nsa also will work with industries at the dod computer security center to develop security standards for private sector use.'' it may or may not be a good idea to have nsa tinkering with this, but i'm pretty sure it's legal. (btw -- when it comes to development of cryptosystems, there may be two choices. either nsa helped develop it, in which case maybe they can crack it, maybe not, but probably, no one else can; or nsa didn't help, in which case they probably can crack it, and maybe others as well...) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16008">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16008" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 but it does look like csrc.ncsl.nist.gov has become an un-machine. if someone would try ftp'ing to it, or knows what's up, i'd really appreciate the info. csrc.ncsl.nist.gov (129.6.54.11) is ftp-able from here... 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16011">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16011" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors? how much data per bit will be lost in average (i assume you still have the correct key)? thanx for hints, experience is what you get if you don't get what you want... systemberatung axel dunkel, koenigsberger strasse 41, d 6239 kriftel, germany e-mail: ad@cat.de, voice: +49-6192-46949, fax: +49-6192-46949 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16015">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16015" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 "the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms" -- dorothy denning cite source, please. dorothy denning, _cryptography and data security_, 1982, addison wesley. page 8, under the heading "cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements. the other two are efficiency and ease of use. --michael l. mauldin carnegie mellon university 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16016">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16016" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors? how much data per bit will be lost in average (i assume you still have the correct key)? it depends on the mode you're using. for a single 64-bit input block, a one-bit error will have a 50 percent chance of corrupting each of the 64 output bits - in other words, it essentially turns the output block into a random number. if you're encrypting data in cbc mode, however, only the one 64-bit block will be affected. the next block, and all that follow it will be decrypted properly. it's a good idea to have some kind of error correction in your system if corrupted bits are likely. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16017">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16017" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology, however, is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u.s. to another country? if so, then which laws apply to this situation? georgel@neosoft.com |                         george livsey |  visualize whirrled peas!  net's worth |                         (713) 994-0447 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16018">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16018" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 ok, i should have read the thread before posting my own $0.02. i would just add to phil's very infomative discussion the following caveat: the fifth amendment applies only in crinial cases. ("...nor shall any person . . . be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."). maybe you are using the wrong amendment. if someone were to seize a safe containing your (paper) records, and demand that you produce the combination, the applicable defense would be on grounds of unreasonable search and seizure. the police would be entitled to subpoena documents relating to a specific matter, but any broad search such as implied by impounding all your records would be unconstitutional. in the case of the safe, they would probably get a locksmith and assert that they only examined documents covered by the warrent. (sure!) in the cryptographic case, their only resort would be rubber-hose cryptography. (this would also make a good "mental experiment" to use in choosing escrow agents. would you trust this proposed agent with a key to your hard disk?--or half the key for that matter.) robert i. eachus with standard_disclaimer; use standard_disclaimer; function message (text: in clever_ideas) return better_ideas is... 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16019">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16019" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 second question: why!?!? why is such a strange procedure used, and not a real rng ? this turns those s1,s2 in a kind of bottleneck for system- security. the only theory that makes any sense is that s1 and s2 are either the same for all chips, or vary among very few possibilities, so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers (2^30, about one billion), multiplied by the number of different s1, s2 combinations. suppose instead that s1 and s2 can be reconstructed given 3 or 4 of the unit keys generated in a single batch (through some sort of known plaintext attack, say). suppose further that 3 or 4 of the chips programmed in each session never find their way into commercial products, but instead end up "elsewhere". suppose the folks at "elsewhere" can determine a unit key, given physical access to one of these chips. then those same folks can determine s1 and s2 for the whole batch... too many suppositions? yeah, probably. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16020">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16020" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from wiretaps in court? won't defense attorneys attempt to obtain the details of the method if the prosecution attempts to present evidence from wiretaps in court? is it certain that such attempts will fail? james b. shearer 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16024">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16024" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super-encryption. an automated full-system surveillance mechanism (quite feasible across radio bandwidth) which knows family key f, can validate clipper wrappers and n:esn associations, but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super-encryption, unless it knows all unit keys, which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces, upon specific wiretap-like order. the serial number will be in a 64 bit block, with a 34 bit filler. doesn't take a lot to check to see if that is correct. depends on whether the filler is a constant (makes checking easy, but susceptible to replay), or variable (e.g. timer, counter, random), which makes replay harder and can also make it easier for the inquisitors to know if they've missed messages, or gotten them out of sequence, or other interesting things that sort of person might care about. it is still easy to conceal super-encryption, at least until the inquisitors get ahold of the k key, which can take a while, presumably not in near-real-time. (worst-case, in which the escrow agencies provide the u key to the local cops, still only gets one side of the conversation per warrant, unless the same key is used for both directions, which i suppose the capstone version of the chip will probably insist on.) # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16025">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16025" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 conference calls? it's not clipper, it's any encryption system. i've seen a number of designs; they generally involve a multi-line cleartext bridge. a 'multi-line cleartext bridge?" and just were would you put that bridge? if it isn't at one of the receiptants location, forget encryption at all. you have blown any security you thought you might have had. most of the people using encrypted conference bridges these days are military (or equivalent, like cia and other embassy personnel), so putting bridges on the recipient's location is normal - it's in a vault on a military base or ft. meade, and the secure phones are in sound-proof rooms with big locks on the doors because they're talking about classified stuff (or golf with other generals.) that paradigm will change as we start using encrypted phones in our offices or homes to carry on normal conversations about dinner plans and stock purchases and meeting schedules and technical info and the good batch of illegal frop that we got last weekend from bob; most people don't use sound-proof vaults, and may use bridges in their pbx or from the local phone company (3-way calls) or long distance or value-added phone company (e.g. alliance conference bridges). if clipjack is mainly used for the radio portion of cellular phones, the conferencing aspects don't change. but there may be a market niche for trusted conference-bridge providers, though i suppose the inquisitors would try to get a blanket wiretap authorization for many bridges, just in case a bad guy might use the service. # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16026">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16026" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 i'm afraid this doesn't work either. we can pick up laptop screens without any most of the so-called `low radiation' monitors are also useless. the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one. we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit, but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers. we built a prototype, it works, and it's still sitting on my lab bench. commercial interest was exactly zero. in the absence of open standards, a monitor which really is `low radiation' (and costs 500 dollars more) can't compete against a monitor which just claims to be `low radiation' (and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box). i heard somewhere (can't name the source) that tempest does not necessarily pick-up just crts, but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip. if that is true, the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked-up from the video controller. can anybody verify or refute this? * angel@foghorn_leghorn.coe.northeastern.edu * * * * btw: these are my opinions, and not that of any other entity * * * my god, its full of stars! - dave * i don't know about you, but we've got company! - epidemic 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16028">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16028" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 sorry, my news reader doesn't seem to know how to copy a subject header. this tracks the thread "why people don't need strong crypto....." the atomic energy act of 1954 expressly forbids *thinking* about building nuclear devices. while i was in grad school, a friend of mine got a security clearance to work on the defense for the progressive magazine. he found lots of articles which were public domain *removed* from the local engineering library (madison wisconsin). so the lawyers sent him all over the states to other libraries to show that the information in the article was already public. what pissed everyone off was a local underground paper went and published the article anyway (it had been precensored by the feds, that's what this was all about) so the judge declared the case moot. the atomic energy act of 1954 has never been tested in court. from my discussions with several people familiar with the case, only 2 other times has this preemptive clause been used. in every case the people simply did what they felt like and courts tossed the cases out. for all intents and purposes, the government *does* have precidence for declaring things classified *after* it has been published. while i was working on star wars this happened to me: my clearance was in the works and i developed a method for tracking particle beams. it was good enough to classify, so i was no longer allowed to work on it. a friend from canada was in the same boat: he developed a method to compute stripping cross sections, but because the subject was classified *he was not allowed to present his own paper at a conference!*. he later published it in an open journal without problems. when the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro. the feds can do whatever they want whenever they feel like it, and they will make up rules to let themselves get away with it. since the mass media can't tell the difference between a joke and the real thing (like "ranch appocolypse" for the waco massacre) don't count on them to help spread the word about their loss of freedom. the government *can* make strong crypto illegal. so what? since the government does not obey any of its own rules, why should we? patience, persistence, truth, reality: dvader@hemp-imi.hep.anl.gov dr. mike home: mrosing@igc.org 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16029">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16029" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 deeply grateful for citations to any papers on electronic cash schemes. enquiring minds &c... eric weaver sony avtc 677 river oaks pkwy, ms 35 sj ca 95134 408 944-4904 & chief engineer, kfjc 89.7 foothill college, los altos hills ca 94022 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16031">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16031" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 there are three issues with clipper. the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working. my answer, with one significant exception, is yes. i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be, assuming that their real objectives are as stated: to permit wiretapping, under certain carefully-controlled circumstances, with a minimum risk of abuse. (the exception is that u exists outside of the chip, on a programming diskette. that's seriously wrong. u_1 and u_2 should be loaded onto the chip separately.) to those who disagree (and i don't claim my answer is obvious, though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper -- i had originally blasted the scheme), i issue this invitation: assume that you were charged with implementing such a system, with complete regard for civil rights and due process. what would you do differently? in answering this question, please accept nsa's fundamental assumptions: that both strong cryptography against outsiders, and the ability to wiretap *some* domestic users, is necessary. (if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions, do it in the context of the last issue i present below. right here, i'm discussing *just* the technical aspects. and no, i don't by any means claim that just because something can be done, it should be.) ok steve, here's a sketch of an alternative that i believe addresses most of the objections to the clipper scheme. notation: + concatenation ^ exclusive or e(m,k) message m encrypted by key k d(m,k) message m decrypted by key k h(m) hash (digest/signature) of message m important values: u0[x] local chip unit key from escrow agency x u1[x] remote chip unit key from escrow agency x n[0] serial number of the local chip n[1] serial number of the remote chip a number of escrow agencies k[0],k[1] "session keys" agreed upon external to this protocol f "family key", need not be secret protocol: choose k0[1],...k0[a] such that k[0] = k0[1]^...^k0[a] remote chip does same for k[1],k1[1],...,k1[a]. compute the following: l0[1] = e(k0[1], u0[1]) l0[a] = e(k0[a], u0[a]) l[0] = n[0] + e(n[0] + l0[1] + ... + l0[a], f) remote chip does the same for l1[1],...,l1[a],l[1] send l[0] to remote chip and receive l[1] from remote chip compute: ke[0] = h(k[0] + n[0] + l0[1] + ... + l0[a] + k[1] + d(l[1], f) kd[0] = h(k[1] + d(l[1], f) + k[0] + n[0] + l0[1] + ... + l0[a] note that d(l[1], f) = n[1] + l1[1] + ... + l1[a] remote chip does the same for ke[1] and kd[1] user data is encrypted (decrypted) with keys ke[0], ke[1] (kd[0], kd[1]) assumptions: no trap doors in e(), d() and h(). h() is not invertible. algorithms for e(), d() and h() are secret. otherwise a software implementation (bogus chip) could communicate with a real chip. the chip only supports the following operation: 1) return n[0] 2) load k0[x] 3) return e(k0[x], u0[x]) 4) return e(n[0] + l0[1] + ... + l0[a], f) 5) given e(n[1] + l1[1] + ... + l1[a], f), return n[1],l1[1],...,l1[a] 6) load k[1] 7) given e(n[1] + l1[1] + ... + l1[a], f), compute ke[0], kd[0] 8) given m, return e(m, ke[0]) 9) given m, return d(m, kd[0]) anything programmed into the chip can be determined by destroying the chip (u[1],...,u[a],f,n[0]). u[1],...,u[a] can not be determined except by destroying the chip. (unfortunately this may not be true in reality. i suppose it's possible to determine how a chip has been programmed with a sophisticated[sp?] x-ray machine to look for blown fuses.) the u's are programmed independantly by the escrow agencies. notes: for tapping escrow agency y is given n[0], e(k0[y], u0[y]), n[1], e(k1[y], u1[y]) and returns k0[y], k1[y]. lea's must contact all escrow agencies with the serial numbers from both chips and the encrypted partial keys. this allows the agencies to record that both chips were tapped. lea's only get the session key, not the key to all conversations of a particular chip. this precludes real-time decrypting of a conversation but that isn't one of the stated requirements. observation: in order for any secure by "tap-able" communication scheme to work, the active parts need to share a secret. and if this secret is revealed, communications by those that know the secret can be made "un-tap-able". obvious candidates are the cryptographic algorithm and the master (family) key. relative size and complexity suggests that the key can be obtained from a silicon implementation of the scheme a lot easier and faster than the algorithm. raymond s. brand rbrand@usasoc.soc.mil 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16035">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16035" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super-encryption. an automated full-system surveillance mechanism (quite feasible across radio bandwidth) which knows family key f, can validate clipper wrappers and n:esn associations, but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super-encryption, unless it knows all unit keys, which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces, upon specific wiretap-like order. the serial number will be in a 64 bit block, with a 34 bit filler. doesn't take a lot to check to see if that is correct. yes, but the extra encryption could be applied *before* the message is encrypted by the clipper, so that the wrapper would be fine, the phone's serial number and the session key would be in the law-enforcement field, etc., but the message wouldn't be readable even if the particular clipper's key were obtained from the escrow agents. in fact, it shouldn't even be possible to detect that a message has been double-encrypted without a court order, right? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16037">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16037" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 [text deleted] to be quite honest, the way things are going, i'd call it self defense. i never advocated not saying what you believe in. i'm advocating second thought, and calm. "a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield" "a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield" "the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield" think about it. i have, my thesis was on sun tzu. more to the point: those who are called the good militarists of old, could make opponents lost contact between front and back lines, lose reliability between large and small groups, lose mutual concern for the welfare of the different social classes among them, lose mutual accomodation between the rulers and the ruled, lose enlistments among the soldiers, lose coherence within the armies. they went into action when it was advantageous, stopped when it was not. today it is. sitting on your hands will get you nowhere in this battle. jerry han-crc-doc-div. of behavioural research-"jhan@debra.dgbt.doc.ca" ///////////// these are my opinions, and my opinions only. \\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\ a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band //////// "memories of those i've left behind, still ringing in my ears."-genesis- uni@acs.bu.edu uni@acs.bu.edu -> public keys by finger and/or request public key archives: <pgp-public-keys@pgp.iastate.edu> sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past.<>fight clinton's wiretap chip! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c <> crypto is not a crime! ask me how! 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16038">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16038" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i've been reading the sci.crypt, alt.privacy.clipper and comp.org.eff.talk discussions about the clipper chip and find (as usual) that most of us think alike -- so there's a lot of repitition. if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net (or instead of to the net), we might actually have some effect. 0005895485@mcimail.com (white house) is this "white house e-mail address" really working yet? someone posted such an address on compuserve a few months ago, but apparently the white house wasn't really set up to recive hundreds (thousands?) of messages a day to that account and didn't want people to use it yet. so is this mci address something the people at the white house actually read, or is it another craig shergold story? i don't know -- i'm just asking. unless the people at the white house print and distribute this mail every day, you may have better luck printing out a letter (on paper, that flat white stuff all over my desk) and snail-mailing it to the white house. i imagine writing to your local representative and senator wouldn't hurt either. heck, why not write to al gore while you're at it? greg brail ------------------ citibank -------------------- gjb@fig.citib.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16039">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16039" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 a person i know, belonging to a research lab of a rivate company, claimed to me during a priavte conversation that, given the equipment in his lab, he could crack a kerberos ticket in 15 minutes to an hour. he had access to rather powerful des hardware, but not of an extraordinare kind, i believe. the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket, which itself constitutes a small message. this was two years ago. i don't believe you, and i don't believe your friend. because des is not known to have any known plaintext attacks readily availble. unless your friend knows something and is keeping it secret, he was bullshitting you. now, it is possible that he noted a weakness in the *implementation* of the kerberos protocol. for instance, using a weak rng to generate keys might cut down on the keyspace (not for the user keys -- for the other kind who's name i can't remember). however, this is not what was claimed. you are claiming a general weakness in des, which is not known to exist in the open literature. don't get me wrong -- des is weaker than it should be. however, cracking it in 15 minutes requires more money be spent on the cracking machine than any organization i know of has available. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16041">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16041" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology, however, is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u.s. to another country? if so, then which laws apply to this situation? from the us law perspective, unless you're engaging in illegal speech, it's not illegal to use encryption. yet. the nsa is allowed to try to listen, but you're not obligated to make it easy for them. yet. the other country may have more repressive laws about that; i gather france's bureaucracy wants to know what you're saying, and in the old soviet union, they didn't need laws to make things illegal :-( (paranoia follows, for those of you who want to play it safe :-) the fact that the nsa is listening may affect your willingness to use wimpy crypto technologies, but it may also affect your willingness to use technologies that violate rsa's patents, e.g. if you use pgp, the nsa may tell rsa that you're doing so, and if the secret service catches on, they may decide that the mere fact that rsa hasn't filed a lawsuit against you doesn't mean that you don't deserve to have your computer confiscated for possible patent violation, munitions law violation, espionage, money laundering, drug importation, and creatin' a disturbance, and then not give it back because you *did* violate the patent even though they had to drop all the other charges, unlike that nasty steve jackson who had the gall not to be guilty of *anything*. # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16042">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16042" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i'm afraid this doesn't work either. we can pick up laptop screens without any problem. [...] i heard somewhere (can't name the source) that tempest does not necessarily pick-up just crts, but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip. if that is true, the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked-up from the video controller. can anybody verify or refute this? yes, that's true. tempest is nothing magic, it's just listening to any available electromagnetic emissions and using all the analysis techniques you know to separate out the interesting stuff. the nice thing about old crts is that they used to put out lots of signal, so they're easy to detect, and if you do your sync carefully, you can watch the output on the monitor in your deceptively-marked chevy step-van. some brands of electric typewriters were even worse. in both cases, it's especially nice because it gets you the data the user is looking at, rather than whatever stuff the paging algorithm is paging out to disk, etc. with newer, quieter equipment, there isn't as much signal, and it's harder to isolate the fun parts. tempest-rated equipment has much lower signal levels. but "everything has vibrations", as master chuan said. # pray for peace; bill # bill stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com at&t bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj # no, i'm *from* new jersey, i only *work* in cyberspace.... # white house commect line 1-202-456-1111 fax 1-202-456-2461 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16043">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16043" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 "the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms" -- dorothy denning cite source, please. "cryptography and data security", page 8, perhaps. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16044">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16044" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 has anyone ported ripem to the amiga yet or is anyone working on it? emailed responses are fine. ken guyton, emory university | preferred: uskmg@unix.cc.emory.edu information technology division | uucp: ...gatech!emoryu1!uskmg atlanta, ga 30322 | non-domain bitnet: uskmg@emoryu1 phone: (404) 727-7685 | fax: (404) 727-2599 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16048">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16048" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am writing an article on clipper for network world. i am looking for comments and opinions (that i can quote) on the scheme, its implications for security and privacy, its acceptance here and overseas, etc. i hope this to be a balenced article, with opinions from various quarters. the only catch is that your name and company affiliation will appear in i am on very tight deadline (i need to finish this wednesday night). please call or e-mail responses. (708) 524-9461 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16049">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16049" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 but i have no idea of a compuserve e-mail address... 70277.2502@compuserve.com ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma@swdev.si.com grand rapids, michigan 73115.1041@compuserve.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16051">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16051" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 guess what people? you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at. only guessing, but from his address i'd say that jerry, like me, lives in canada. unlike me, he thinks that our friends in the us enjoy the same freedom that we do, and he has not seen the slow but steady erosion to the south of us. we have the benefit of relatively slow politicians and ineffective law enforcement. our rednecks tend to be the objects of derision rather than elected officials. it's everything le can do to keep up with the real criminals. any time they actually go after somebody just because they don't like his or her attitude, it's national news (it also often blows up in their faces: eg. the well-intentioned but flawed zundel case, which resulted in a scolding from the supreme court, not only to le for prosecuting the case but to parliament for passing the law it was prosecuted under). our friends south of the border don't have as easy a time of it. among other things they have as many le agencies as we have agencies, and some of them have teeth. they also have the war on drugs which gives law-enforcement agencies exceptional powers to ignore individuals' rights (the dea has more arbitrary power than that given to canadian agencies under the war measures act). we have the rcmp and csis who can't stop fighting each other long enough to do any really effective suppression of private citizens' rights. not only that, our police commissions have teeth, as i learned when i had to fend off a bent cop. it may be ironic that the nation founded on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is getting government-imposed order, while the nation founded on peace, order and good government is getting in-your-face liberty. that's not to say our time won't come. it looks like chretien is going to run on a law-and-order platform. be afraid. marc thibault | marc@tanda.isis.org automation architect | cis:71441,2226 r.r.1, oxford mills, ontario, canada | nc freenet: aa185 -----begin pgp public key block----- mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao+hihtnefrrn+vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n+lftpnnlc42ms+c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc+ =hlnv -----end pgp public key block----- 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16053">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16053" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 great slogan! i'm ready to sign up with a crypto-lobbying effort (though i wouldn't want to do it through an nra offshoot). shall we also push for the cra -- cryptographic rights amendment ?? looking at it from up here in the frozen north, it looks like you could do worse than get the nra involved. they have a kindred problem, a large number of voters, the right attitude, and lots of funds. from an ethical _or_ constitutional viewpoint, i haven't seen a good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn't also support the nra position on guns (and vice-versa). marc thibault | marc@tanda.isis.org automation architect | cis:71441,2226 r.r.1, oxford mills, ontario, canada | nc freenet: aa185 -----begin pgp public key block----- mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao+hihtnefrrn+vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n+lftpnnlc42ms+c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc+ =hlnv -----end pgp public key block----- 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16054">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16054" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 "a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield" "a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield" "the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield" y'all got the first two reversed. - judge roy bean 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16055">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16055" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 well, actually, this one's easy. it's their job. the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems. if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses, so be it. ah, but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government's domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate, into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping. but the nsa will not be doing any wiretapping. the actual wiretapping will, presumably, be conducted by the fbi. of course, the capability for this was provided by the nsa, but i think that they are still within the limitations of their charter. i realize this is a fine point, and some may differ, but this is my opinion. although i don't care for clipper and won't support or use it, i don't see the nsa as having overstepped their bounds. david r. conrad "no his mind is not for rent/to any god or government" = cat-talk conferencing network, computer conferencing and file archive = - 1-313-882-2209, 300bps-14400bps, v.32/v.32bis/turbopep new users use 'new' - = as a login id. available via pc-pursuit!!! (city code "midet") = e-mail address: dave@michigan.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16057">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16057" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 looks like you can't be forced to reveal a password, if anyone can provide a convincing legal argument to the contrary (ie an actual court case) i'd be most interested... this is the case in britain, according to the head of the computer crime unit here when i interviewed him a couple of months ago. wendy m. grossman 9a north avenue, kew founder, the skeptic (uk) richmond, surrey tw9 3lz freelance writer +(44) (81) 948 3784 recovering folksinger 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16060">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16060" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 in order to have formulate a rational position on what cryptography policies are acceptable, we must set forth a list of basic requirements. i would propose the following as a starting point: 1. the algorithm must be publicly known, and must have a record of surviving attempts by outside experts to find weaknesses. 2. the system implementation must make it possible to verify that the advertised algorithm is, in fact, the one that is being used. 3. the key must be quickly changeable by the user, and must be of a sufficient length and complexity to defeat any brute-force search possible now or in the reasonably near future. note that these requirements are not incompatible with some form of key escrow system; the may 1993 issue of "byte" describes an example of an encryption system which can clearly be implemented in a manner consistent with the above requirements while requiring that parts of the key be escrowed in order to have one's public key listed by a central distributor. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16062">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16062" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am looking for some public domain (and exportable) code for encryption. nothing elaborate, just something that will satisfy a marketing need :-) oh yes, unix platform. jerry natowitz guest user on: arpa jin@ursa-major.spdcc.com uucp {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!jin 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16066">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16066" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 i am looking for some public domain (and exportable) code for encryption. nothing elaborate, just something that will satisfy a marketing need :-) oh yes, unix platform. you can find what you're looking for on hundreds of sites worldwide. try anonymous ftp to nic.funet.fi (finland) /pub/unix/4.3bsd/net2/lib/libc/gen/crypt.c.z this includes source code for fully-functional des encryption and decryption. there are some who believe that public domain code is exportable, some who don't. make your own judgements, but it seems obvious to me. ed hamrick 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16068">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16068" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 : it means that the eff's public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant : to the encryption issue per se. there may well be people who care about : the encryption issue who don't care to associate themselves with the : network erotica issue (or may even disagree with the eff's position). perhaps these encryption-only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted? these issues are not as seperable as you maintain. well, regardless of what policy liabilities anyone in washington may think eff has, it is going ahead aggressively attacking the assumptions that are behind the administrations clipper chip initiative. for all the reasons stated here. in washington, you have to work under the assumption that everyone has some liabilities. government and non-governmental organizations alike all share the same glass house. eff is variously identified as the hacker defense fund, the first amendment absolutists, the new communists, etc, but it is also an acknowledged leader in the civil liberties arena and is respected as a serious player in the policy circles. so unless there is another organization with the credibility and clout and right policy stance that you know of in washington, please don't count eff out as a valid representative of your views in the clipper chip matter. cliff figallo fig@eff.org eff online guy (617)576-4506 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16069">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16069" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 at the moment pgp is available in executable format for ms-dos and mac, and source code for most other platforms including unix. many ftp sites keep a copy (although the mac version is getting hard to find). try the following site: soda.berkeley.edu /pub/cypherpunks/pgp for those with out ftp access, try nitv-bbs (see .sig). i have the following: (all from nic.funet.fi, garbo.uwasa.fi, sony.com, and ftp.uni-erlangen.de) platform execs source patch4src xtras bbs file area fido freqname dos x x x login pgpdos, pgpsdos mac x x nonibm pgpmac, pgpsmac amiga x ? nonibm pgpami archimedes x ? nonibm pgparc os/2 x ? win pgpos2 next x nonibm pgpnxt unix x x nonibm pgpunx ? = haven't looked in the archive to see if it has source or not (usually because i can't handle the format). for fidonet freq magic-names, the pgps??? names are source code, others are either execs or execs + src [+ extras], or in the case of next, just a patch (you still need one of the full source code packages). nitv-bbs is free. this is not an ad, it is a public service announcement. testes saxi solidi! ********************** podex opacus gravedinosus est! stanton mccandlish, sysop: noise in the void data center bbs indranet: 369:1/1 fidonet: 1:301/2 internet: anton@hydra.unm.edu data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, n-8-1) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16078">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16078" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 you obviously haven't read the information about the system. the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified. the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units. i am against the proposal, but lets be accurate in our objections. do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read. the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units, but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow. big deal. if you are a legitimate law enforcement agent and have a legitimate wiretap order, you just listen in on the line for 10 minutes, get the serial number, and then take the order and go to the escrow agencies. if you notice the criminal is now using a different phone instrument, take your still-valid wiretap order to the escrow agency with the new serial number. (this provides opportunities for abuse by law enforcement, but thats not what we are discussing right now.) i oppose clipper, but the mechanics here are simple and easy to understand. the whole rest of your article is based on a large series of false premises, all predicated on the notion that this simple act is somehow impossible. i feel free to presume to tell you that you do not seem to understand the mechanics of the proposal. arguing that terrorists will be killing people for their clipper phones is silly because its pointless. lets be alarmist about what really would show up as a problem, shall we? perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16079">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16079" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 in this giant bally-ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e-mail and posts i've tossing back and me too. a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand. i never advocated "hiding in the sand." i'm advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible. unless you want blood on your hands. no one has mentioned violence other than you, mr. han. i believe you are imagining things. perry metzger pmetzger@shearson.com laissez faire, laissez passer. le monde va de lui meme. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16081">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16081" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 [some deleted] unlike the cia, the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying. read bamford's the puzzle palace. i have that book, and the way i read it is, one side of the conversation must be from outside the united states. of coures, that ass u mes that the nsa plays by the rules... one thing that seems ambiguous is whether a signal being echoed down from geosynchronous orbit is "...from outside the united states." also, being able to assess whether nsa is playing by the rules requires knowing what the rules are. we only know a subset. for those even more suspicious, there could be other surveillance organizations "blacker" than the nsa. bryan l. allen bryan@devvax.jpl.nasa.gov telos corp./jpl (818) 306-6425 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16084">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16084" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
<context>
 "the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms" -- dorothy denning cite source, please. "cryptography and data security", page 8, perhaps. thanks. got that from two other sources as well. the full quote is as follows: from dorothy denning, cryptography and data security, addison-wesley 1982,1983, page 8: "cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements: "1. the enciphering and deciphering transformations must be efficient for all keys. "2. the system must be easy to use. "3. the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of algorithms e [enciphering] or d [deciphering]." --mike mike godwin, | ariel rose godwin mnemonic@eff.org| born 4-15-93 at 4:34 pm in cambridge (617) 576-4510 | 7 pounds, 1.5 ounces, 19.75 inches long eff, cambridge | a new citizen of the electronic frontier 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.crypt16085">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16085" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 <: as a private citizen, i would feel much more "secure in my person and <: papers" knowing that an organization committed to individual civil <: liberties- the aclu and the nra come to mind- was safeguarding half of <: my key. both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure <: by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported, funded, or <: overtly controlled by the government. <thats one problem that has so far been overlooked. these two escrow <agencies will have to create a secure database and service the <input and output of keys. who pays for this? if they refuse an <illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their <budget by cut to punish them? will congress be forced to fund <them forever? congress isn't forced to do anything. not even follow their own rules, if it isn't expedient. if caught with their collective pants down, they make some funny noises, perhaps crucify a skapegoat or two, then continue business as usual. i notice those senators involved with the s&l scandal weren't hurt too much, if at all. deconcini's personal stake in suppliers to those big aerostats hasn't affected his credibility at all, inside congress, at least. he is still pushing his police state agenda... <the problem is that laws can change. congress may pass a law setting <up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private. some <future congress may change that law. suppose pre-nazi germany had <a clipper system. do you think the escrow agencies would have <told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid <court order? it will be like the old saw in new jersey and new york, chicago, etc when the politicians promised that this spiffy new gun registration law will not be used for future confiscation purposes. sure enough, a few years later, when they were used just for that purpose, and folks complained, the response was "well, *i* didn't make that promise..." some politicians may not even wait a few years... escrowed keys would have the same assurances of security. besides, if someone wants to snoop, how are you to know - you don't think they will send you a letter saying "we are now snooping on your private conversations...", do you? what are the assurances the escrow people will not be forbidden to report any access attempts for one's keys? so much for government assurances of privacy. <in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of <the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance. <they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no <accountability to anyone except through a court challenge. how? the feds will just change the law, or just ignore it. nothing new here... they got the muscle, the resources, the guns... as an aside, since export of crypto is verboten because of itar, shouldn't the second amendment also come into play here? <john eaton <!hp-vcd!johne pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16086">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16086" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 < some countries have laws about importing crypto gear--i believe the u.s. < does. without a license the above scheme won't work (at least not legally) < in such countries, including at least france and the u.s. < david <bzzt! <wrong. the us does not have crypto import laws. i'd not be so sure about that: are there any munitions import laws, and could those be used against importation of crypto hardware/software as well as firearms? importing so-called 'assault weapons' for use by commoners come to mind.... note - talk.politics.guns added to newsgroups for possible feedback... pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16088">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16088" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 in some hobby shop, they sell a flexible tube (1/4-inch diameter, 18-inch ling) that will illuminate if you bend or shake it (it is also sold in amusement parks in the evenings). the brightness can last 2 to 4 hours. if it is left in refrigrator (in coldness), you can prolong its life of illumination. is this something we can make ourself easily? or, do you know any reading can provide details about this stuff? working with kids, it would be nice if it can be a do-it-yourself project with minimum budget. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16089">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16089" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 you should realize that form letters are the *worst* way to influence your congresscritters; exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder. if you want to write (and i think you should!), take the time to really *write* a letter. things to emphasize: [excellent and helpful list deleted] - be concise; don't ramble. rants are *definitely* out of place. cite references, if necessary, but only use "accepted" references like academic journals. "my neighbor jim" is *not* a real refer- ence. 8) wes's list is of "do"s and "don't"s for writing your congressional representatives is a fine one but i'd like to encourage people to pay extra attention to the point above. as cliched as the saying may be it's nevertheless true that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. while the writing styles prevalent on the net possess a certain charm please remember that the person reading your letter is likely to be uninfluenced or negatively influenced if you express your concerns in a way that makes you sound like a flake or a paranoid crackpot. wild and unsupported accusations about the menace from the nsa will not carry much weight, nor are overblown conclusions about the inevitable consequences of the proposal likely to convince (especially not ones that attempt strained analogies to the rise of the nazi party. please save the niemoller quote for another letter..) if you want your opinions to be taken seriously it is *very* important that you state those opinions in a manner that is understandable and seems reasonable to a layman. don't overburden your reader with technical details or expect them to know the history of various encryption technologies. before you mail it, hand your letter to a non-technical friend and ask them to sanity-check it. above all, realize that legislators are often motivated as much by self-interest as by anything else. try to point out risks in terms that will be meaningful and motivating to them such as the loss of individual privacy rights or the damage restrictive export regulations do to american businesses' ability to compete in the global marketplace. pull the strings that you think will work with your legislator -- if your legislator is unlikely to be swayed by civil-rights concerns then point out how a government-granted monopoly for mycotronx damages the competitiveness of businesses in your district that manufacture or market phone or crypto 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16102">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16102" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 david sternlight says: it discredits the writer with third parties to claim clipper has a back door. it does not. actually, david, i don't think it's any more intellectually honest to say there are no backdoors than to say there are backdoors, unless you've had a chance to examine the algorithm and the silicon closely. for all we know, skipjack could be easily broken, or impossible to break. and clearly, if skipjack is not secure, then the clipper chip is not worth much. --john kelsey 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16105">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16105" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 if these personal attacks are what stopped prof. denning from replying on issues of substance, they have cause real harm to the serious debate here. they are and they have. if prof. denning is afraid of posting here due to personal attacks, perhaps she should use an anonymous posting service. that is why they are there, to allow heated debate to occur without the personal is anon@penet back up yet? 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16117">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16117" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 we don't know this, do we? the algorithm is classified. i speculate, from the mykotronx data sheet on the myk-78, that the algorithm is a classified cryptosystem, similar in application to des but cleared by the nsa for classified traffic, that has been in use for a number of years. myktotronx refers to it as "government type ii encryption", which matches the designation of one of the types of encryption available on stu-iii phones, and may be the same as a cryptosystem i have heard called "cipher2". this would make sense, since this is evidently a field-proven cryptosystem which can act as a "pin-compatible" substitute for des. combined with a tappable key exchange protocol, this would offer exactly what is claimed for clipper: secure encryption with access via a key escrow. if this is fact the case, it would make me quite confident of the encipherment algorithm itself. now, i do not know if these are in fact the same cryptosystem; my knowledge of classified cryptography isn't even fuzzy :), it's nonexistent. however, it would certainly have been the least-effort approach on the part of the government: take an old military cipher that people can drop in place of des (and which is at least as secure), set up a key escrow scheme for law enforcement, and promote it for public use. this also fits with mykotronx, who's been around but almost invisible for years. has anyone else made this sort of connection, or am i just hallucinating pink elephants here? :). my curiousity has been piqued... amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16118">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16118" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 encryption technologies are currently reguarded as arms by the feds, hence the export ban. while the second is under enough attack for guarrentteing our rights to fire arms, perhaps we should reflect on this as well. (perhaps fire arms are not the only weapons covered under the second amendment) hmmm... i wouldn't consider encryption to be a weapon. how would the government classify encryption? seems to me that encryption ought to be covered by the first amendment. using this line of reasoning, the government shouldn't be able to restrict what data people encrypt and what encryption algorithms they use because this would be restricting one's freedom of speech. in other words, encrypted data---text, graphics, or other information---is just another form of free speech. for this reason the government shouldn't be able to regulate the use of encryption algorithms and encrypted data. the only time the government should be able to 'force' someone to reveal his or her encryption keys for some encrypted data is when the encrypted data in question may be something that isn't protected by the first amendment such as kiddy porn. even in a case like this the government should be required to get a search warrant before coercing someone into revealing the keys. btw, what encryption methods are considered to be state-of-the-art nowdays. have the feds relaxed export restrictions on des yet? also, is des still regarded as a good form of encryption? robert johnston johonston@cyberia.win.net scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me * batf = cigarette cops * * fbi = fuehrer's bureau of incineration * 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16120">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16120" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 1) i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope, and the cost of printing out a letter. 2) if some kind soul out there would write a letter, and upload it to the net, everyone could capture it, print it out, and snail-mail it out to their local congressional critter. btw>> i'm working on one. dear senator/congressman/president {fill in the blank} i am writing you to voice my strong opposition to president clinton's clipper chip initiative. this proposal to establish a secret government designed cryptography chip with government key registration as the standard for voice encryption is very disturbing. the idea that citizens must register their secrets with the government just in case they are trying to keep them secret is patently unamerican. additionally, the press release for this program strongly implied that other forms of cryptography would be banned after the clipper chip standard is in place. this latest attack on our civil rights is deeply disturbing and is frankly a voting issue for me. the presidents press release stated that the plan strikes a balance between the legitimate needs of law enforcement and a citizens right to privacy but this is not the case. the fact is that since other strong cryptographic equipment is avalible the criminals, drug dealers and terrorists mentioned in the press release will simply use non clipper cryptography. meanwhile the average citizen may gain no protection against warentless wiretaps by the government since the government escrowed key is derived deterministicly from the unit serial number which is broadcast by the chip durring its opperation. this seems like an obvious back door for the nsa and law enforcement. if you still do nott understand my objection to key registration, consider the way j. edgar hoover blackmailed government officials like yourself; would you now use a phone to transmit personal details of your life that the nsa and fbi have the keys to? well heres a letter, i didnt spell check it since i dont know how in emacs so you might want to do that. bill smythe 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16123">
<answer instance="sci.crypt16123" senseid="sci.crypt"/>
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 -----begin pgp signed message----- please note that the following speech was made by chuck hammill in 1987. address all letters to his address, given at the end of this document. -- russell from crossbows to cryptography: thwarting the state via given at the future of freedom conference, november 1987 you know, technology--and particularly computer technology--has often gotten a bad rap in libertarian cir- cles. we tend to think of orwell's 1984, or terry gilliam's brazil, or the proximity detectors keeping east berlin's slave/citizens on their own side of the border, or the so- phisticated bugging devices nixon used to harass those on his "enemies list." or, we recognize that for the price of a ticket on the concorde we can fly at twice the speed of sound, but only if we first walk thru a magnetometer run by a government policeman, and permit him to paw thru our be- longings if it beeps. but i think that mind-set is a mistake. before there were cattle prods, governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses. before there were lasers for eavesdropping, governments used binoculars and lip-readers. though government certainly uses technology to oppress, the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools. in fact, technology represents one of the most promis- ing avenues available for re-capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them. by its very nature, it favors the bright (who can put it to use) over the dull (who can- not). it favors the adaptable (who are quick to see the merit of the new (over the sluggish (who cling to time- tested ways). and what two better words are there to de- scribe government bureaucracy than "dull" and "sluggish"? one of the clearest, classic triumphs of technology over tyranny i see is the invention of the man-portable crossbow. with it, an untrained peasant could now reliably and lethally engage a target out to fifty meters--even if that target were a mounted, chain-mailed knight. (unlike the longbow, which, admittedly was more powerful, and could get off more shots per unit time, the crossbow required no formal training to utilize. whereas the longbow required elaborate visual, tactile and kinesthetic coordination to achieve any degree of accuracy, the wielder of a crossbow could simply put the weapon to his shoulder, sight along the arrow itself, and be reasonably assured of hitting his tar- get.) moreover, since just about the only mounted knights likely to visit your average peasant would be government soldiers and tax collectors, the utility of the device was plain: with it, the common rabble could defend themselves not only against one another, but against their governmental masters. it was the medieval equivalent of the armor- piercing bullet, and, consequently, kings and priests (the medieval equivalent of a bureau of alcohol, tobacco and crossbows) threatened death and excommunication, respec- tively, for its unlawful possession. looking at later developments, we see how technology like the firearm--particularly the repeating rifle and the handgun, later followed by the gatling gun and more advanced machine guns--radically altered the balance of interpersonal and inter-group power. not without reason was the colt .45 called "the equalizer." a frail dance-hall hostess with one in her possession was now fully able to protect herself against the brawniest roughneck in any saloon. advertise- ments for the period also reflect the merchandising of the repeating cartridge rifle by declaring that "a man on horseback, armed with one of these rifles, simply cannot be captured." and, as long as his captors were relying upon flintlocks or single-shot rifles, the quote is doubtless a true one. updating now to the present, the public-key cipher (with a personal computer to run it) represents an equiv- alent quantum leap--in a defensive weapon. not only can such a technique be used to protect sensitive data in one's own possession, but it can also permit two strangers to ex- change information over an insecure communications channel--a wiretapped phone line, for example, or skywriting, for that matter)--without ever having previously met to exchange cipher keys. with a thousand-dollar com- puter, you can create a cipher that a multi-megabuck cray x-mp can't crack in a year. within a few years, it should be economically feasible to similarly encrypt voice communi- cations; soon after that, full-color digitized video images. technology will not only have made wiretapping obsolete, it will have totally demolished government's control over in- formation transfer. i'd like to take just a moment to sketch the mathemat- ics which makes this principle possible. this algorithm is called the rsa algorithm, after rivest, shamir, and adleman who jointly created it. its security derives from the fact that, if a very large number is the product of two very large primes, then it is extremely difficult to obtain the two prime factors from analysis of their product. "ex- tremely" in the sense that if primes p and q have 100 digits apiece, then their 200-digit product cannot in gen- eral be factored in less than 100 years by the most powerful computer now in existence. the "public" part of the key consists of (1) the prod- uct pq of the two large primes p and q, and (2) one fac- tor, call it x , of the product xy where xy = {(p-1) * (q-1) + 1}. the "private" part of the key consists of the other factor y. each block of the text to be encrypted is first turned into an integer--either by using ascii, or even a simple a=01, b=02, c=03, ... , z=26 representation. this integer is then raised to the power x (modulo pq) and the resulting integer is then sent as the encrypted message. the receiver decrypts by taking this integer to the (secret) power y (modulo pq). it can be shown that this process will always yield the original number started with. what makes this a groundbreaking development, and why it is called "public-key" cryptography," is that i can openly publish the product pq and the number x , while keeping secret the number y --so that anyone can send me an encrypted message, namely a (mod pq) , but only i can recover the original message a , by taking what they send, raising it to the power y and taking the result (mod pq). the risky step (meeting to exchange cipher keys) has been eliminated. so people who may not even trust each other enough to want to meet, may still reliably ex- change encrypted messages--each party having selected and disseminated his own pq and his x , while maintaining the secrecy of his own y. another benefit of this scheme is the notion of a "dig- ital signature," to enable one to authenticate the source of a given message. normally, if i want to send you a message, i raise my plaintext a to your x and take the result (mod your pq) and send that. however, if in my message, i take the plaintext a and raise it to my (secret) power y , take the result (mod my pq), then raise that result to your x (mod your pq) and send this, then even after you have normally "decrypted" the message, it will still look like garbage. however, if you then raise it to my public power x , and take the result (mod my public pq ), so you will not only recover the ori- ginal plaintext message, but you will know that no one but i could have sent it to you (since no one else knows my secret y). and these are the very concerns by the way that are to- day tormenting the soviet union about the whole question of personal computers. on the one hand, they recognize that american schoolchildren are right now growing up with com- puters as commonplace as sliderules used to be--more so, in fact, because there are things computers can do which will interest (and instruct) 3- and 4-year-olds. and it is pre- cisely these students who one generation hence will be going head-to-head against their soviet counterparts. for the soviets to hold back might be a suicidal as continuing to teach swordsmanship while your adversaries are learning ballistics. on the other hand, whatever else a personal computer may be, it is also an exquisitely efficient copying machine--a floppy disk will hold upwards of 50,000 words of text, and can be copied in a couple of minutes. if this weren't threatening enough, the computer that performs the copy can also encrypt the data in a fashion that is all but unbreakable. remember that in soviet society publicly ac- cessible xerox machines are unknown. (the relatively few copying machines in existence are controlled more inten- sively than machine guns are in the united states.) now the "conservative" position is that we should not sell these computers to the soviets, because they could use them in weapons systems. the "liberal" position is that we should sell them, in the interests of mutual trade and cooperation--and anyway, if we don't make the sale, there will certainly be some other nation willing to. for my part, i'm ready to suggest that the libertarian position should be to give them to the soviets for free, and if necessary, make them take them . . . and if that doesn't work load up an sr-71 blackbird and air drop them over moscow in the middle of the night. paid for by private sub- scription, of course, not taxation . . . i confess that this is not a position that has gained much support among members of the conventional left-right political spectrum, but, af- ter all, in the words of one of illuminatus's characters, we are political non-euclideans: the shortest distance to a particular goal may not look anything like what most people would consider a "straight line." taking a long enough world-view, it is arguable that breaking the soviet govern- ment monopoly on information transfer could better lead to the enfeeblement and, indeed, to the ultimate dissolution of the soviet empire than would the production of another dozen missiles aimed at moscow. but there's the rub: a "long enough" world view does suggest that the evil, the oppressive, the coercive and the simply stupid will "get what they deserve," but what's not immediately clear is how the rest of us can escape being killed, enslaved, or pauperized in the process. when the liberals and other collectivists began to at- tack freedom, they possessed a reasonably stable, healthy, functioning economy, and almost unlimited time to proceed to hamstring and dismantle it. a policy of political gradualism was at least conceivable. but now, we have patchwork crazy-quilt economy held together by baling wire and spit. the state not only taxes us to "feed the poor" while also inducing farmers to slaughter milk cows and drive up food prices--it then simultaneously turns around and sub- sidizes research into agricultural chemicals designed to in- crease yields of milk from the cows left alive. or witness the fact that a decline in the price of oil is considered as potentially frightening as a comparable increase a few years ago. when the price went up, we were told, the economy risked collapse for for want of energy. the price increase was called the "moral equivalent of war" and the feds swung into action. for the first time in american history, the speed at which you drive your car to work in the morning be- came an issue of federal concern. now, when the price of oil drops, again we risk problems, this time because ameri- can oil companies and third world basket-case nations who sell oil may not be able to ever pay their debts to our grossly over-extended banks. the suggested panacea is that government should now re-raise the oil prices that opec has lowered, via a new oil tax. since the government is seeking to raise oil prices to about the same extent as opec did, what can we call this except the "moral equivalent of civil war--the government against its own people?" and, classically, in international trade, can you imag- ine any entity in the world except a government going to court claiming that a vendor was selling it goods too cheaply and demanding not only that that naughty vendor be compelled by the court to raise its prices, but also that it be punished for the act of lowering them in the first place? so while the statists could afford to take a couple of hundred years to trash our economy and our liberties--we certainly cannot count on having an equivalent period of stability in which to reclaim them. i contend that there exists almost a "black hole" effect in the evolution of nation-states just as in the evolution of stars. once free- dom contracts beyond a certain minimum extent, the state warps the fabric of the political continuum about itself to the degree that subsequent re-emergence of freedom becomes all but impossible. a good illustration of this can be seen in the area of so-called "welfare" payments. when those who sup at the public trough outnumber (and thus outvote) those whose taxes must replenish the trough, then what possible choice has a democracy but to perpetuate and expand the tak- ing from the few for the unearned benefit of the many? go down to the nearest "welfare" office, find just two people on the dole . . . and recognize that between them they form a voting bloc that can forever outvote you on the question of who owns your life--and the fruits of your life's labor. so essentially those who love liberty need an "edge" of some sort if we're ultimately going to prevail. we obvi- ously can't use the altruists' "other-directedness" of "work, slave, suffer, sacrifice, so that next generation of a billion random strangers can live in a better world." recognize that, however immoral such an appeal might be, it is nonetheless an extremely powerful one in today's culture. if you can convince people to work energetically for a "cause," caring only enough for their personal welfare so as to remain alive enough and healthy enough to continue working--then you have a truly massive reservoir of energy to draw from. equally clearly, this is just the sort of ap- peal which tautologically cannot be utilized for egoistic or libertarian goals. if i were to stand up before you tonight and say something like, "listen, follow me as i enunciate my noble "cause," contribute your money to support the "cause," give up your free time to work for the "cause," strive selflessly to bring it about, and then (after you and your children are dead) maybe your children's children will actu- ally live under egoism"--you'd all think i'd gone mad. and of course you'd be right. because the point i'm trying to make is that libertarianism and/or egoism will be spread if, when, and as, individual libertarians and/or egoists find it profitable and/or enjoyable to do so. and probably only while i certainly do not disparage the concept of poli- tical action, i don't believe that it is the only, nor even necessarily the most cost-effective path toward increasing freedom in our time. consider that, for a fraction of the investment in time, money and effort i might expend in try- ing to convince the state to abolish wiretapping and all forms of censorship--i can teach every libertarian who's in- terested how to use cryptography to abolish them there is a maxim--a proverb--generally attributed to the eskimoes, which very likely most libertarians have al- ready heard. and while you likely would not quarrel with the saying, you might well feel that you've heard it often enough already, and that it has nothing further to teach us, and moreover, that maybe you're even tired of hearing it. i shall therefore repeat it now: if you give a man a fish, the saying runs, you feed him for a day. but if you teach a man how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. your exposure to the quote was probably in some sort of a "workfare" vs. "welfare" context; namely, that if you genuinely wish to help someone in need, you should teach him how to earn his sustenance, not simply how to beg for it. and of course this is true, if only because the next time he is hungry, there might not be anybody around willing or even able to give him a fish, whereas with the information on how to fish, he is completely self sufficient. but i submit that this exhausts only the first order content of the quote, and if there were nothing further to glean from it, i would have wasted your time by citing it again. after all, it seems to have almost a crypto-altruist slant, as though to imply that we should structure our ac- tivities so as to maximize the benefits to such hungry beggars as we may encounter. but consider: suppose this eskimo doesn't know how to fish, but he does know how to hunt walruses. you, on the other hand, have often gone hungry while traveling thru walrus country because you had no idea how to catch the damn things, and they ate most of the fish you could catch. and now suppose the two of you decide to exchange information, bartering fishing knowledge for hunting knowledge. well, the first thing to observe is that a transaction of this type categorically and unambiguously refutes the marxist premise that every trade must have a "winner" and a "loser;" the idea that if one person gains, it must necessarily be at the "expense" of another person who loses. clearly, under this scenario, such is not the case. each party has gained some- thing he did not have before, and neither has been dimin- ished in any way. when it comes to exchange of information (rather than material objects) life is no longer a zero-sum game. this is an extremely powerful notion. the "law of diminishing returns," the "first and second laws of thermodynamics"--all those "laws" which constrain our possi- bilities in other contexts--no longer bind us! now that's anarchy! or consider another possibility: suppose this hungry eskimo never learned to fish because the ruler of his nation-state had decreed fishing illegal. because fish contain dangerous tiny bones, and sometimes sharp spines, he tells us, the state has decreed that their consumption--and even their possession--are too hazardous to the people's health to be permitted . . . even by knowledgeable, willing adults. perhaps it is because citizens' bodies are thought to be government property, and therefore it is the function of the state to punish those who improperly care for govern- ment property. or perhaps it is because the state gener- ously extends to competent adults the "benefits" it provides to children and to the mentally ill: namely, a full-time, all-pervasive supervisory conservatorship--so that they need not trouble themselves with making choices about behavior thought physically risky or morally "naughty." but, in any case, you stare stupefied, while your eskimo informant re- lates how this law is taken so seriously that a friend of his was recently imprisoned for years for the crime of "pos- session of nine ounces of trout with intent to distribute." now you may conclude that a society so grotesquely oppressive as to enforce a law of this type is simply an affront to the dignity of all human beings. you may go far- ther and decide to commit some portion of your discretion- ary, recreational time specifically to the task of thwarting this tyrant's goal. (your rationale may be "altruistic" in the sense of wanting to liberate the oppressed, or "egoistic" in the sense of proving you can outsmart the oppressor--or very likely some combination of these or per- haps even other motives.) but, since you have zero desire to become a martyr to your "cause," you're not about to mount a military campaign, or even try to run a boatload of fish through the blockade. however, it is here that technology--and in particular in- formation technology--can multiply your efficacy literally a hundredfold. i say "literally," because for a fraction of the effort (and virtually none of the risk) attendant to smuggling in a hundred fish, you can quite readily produce a hundred xerox copies of fishing instructions. (if the tar- geted government, like present-day america, at least permits open discussion of topics whose implementation is re- stricted, then that should suffice. but, if the government attempts to suppress the flow of information as well, then you will have to take a little more effort and perhaps write your fishing manual on a floppy disk encrypted according to your mythical eskimo's public-key parameters. but as far as increasing real-world access to fish you have made genuine nonzero headway--which may continue to snowball as others re-disseminate the information you have provided. and you have not had to waste any of your time trying to convert id- eological adversaries, or even trying to win over the unde- cided. recall harry browne's dictum from "freedom in an unfree world" that the success of any endeavor is in general inversely proportional to the number of people whose persua- sion is necessary to its fulfilment. if you look at history, you cannot deny that it has been dramatically shaped by men with names like washington, lincoln, . . . nixon . . . marcos . . . duvalier . . . khadaffi . . . and their ilk. but it has also been shaped by people with names like edison, curie, marconi, tesla and wozniak. and this latter shaping has been at least as per- vasive, and not nearly so bloody. and that's where i'm trying to take the libertech project. rather than beseeching the state to please not en- slave, plunder or constrain us, i propose a libertarian net- work spreading the technologies by which we may seize freedom for ourselves. but here we must be a bit careful. while it is not (at present) illegal to encrypt information when government wants to spy on you, there is no guarantee of what the fu- ture may hold. there have been bills introduced, for exam- ple, which would have made it a crime to wear body armor when government wants to shoot you. that is, if you were to commit certain crimes while wearing a kevlar vest, then that fact would constitute a separate federal crime of its own. this law to my knowledge has not passed . . . yet . . . but it does indicate how government thinks. other technological applications, however, do indeed pose legal risks. we recognize, for example, that anyone who helped a pre-civil war slave escape on the "underground railroad" was making a clearly illegal use of technology--as the sovereign government of the united states of america at that time found the buying and selling of human beings quite as acceptable as the buying and selling of cattle. simi- larly, during prohibition, anyone who used his bathtub to ferment yeast and sugar into the illegal psychoactive drug, alcohol--the controlled substance, wine--was using technol- ogy in a way that could get him shot dead by federal agents for his "crime"--unfortunately not to be restored to life when congress reversed itself and re-permitted use of this so . . . to quote a former president, un-indicted co- conspirator and pardoned felon . . . "let me make one thing perfectly clear:" the libertech project does not advocate, participate in, or conspire in the violation of any law--no matter how oppressive, unconstitutional or simply stupid such law may be. it does engage in description (for educa- tional and informational purposes only) of technological processes, and some of these processes (like flying a plane or manufacturing a firearm) may well require appropriate li- censing to perform legally. fortunately, no license is needed for the distribution or receipt of information it- so, the next time you look at the political scene and despair, thinking, "well, if 51% of the nation and 51% of this state, and 51% of this city have to turn libertarian before i'll be free, then somebody might as well cut my goddamn throat now, and put me out of my misery"--recognize that such is not the case. there exist ways to make your- self free. if you wish to explore such techniques via the project, you are welcome to give me your name and address--or a fake name and mail drop, for that matter--and you'll go on the mailing list for my erratically-published newsletter. any friends or acquaintances whom you think would be interested are welcome as well. i'm not even asking for stamped self- addressed envelopes, since my printer can handle mailing la- bels and actual postage costs are down in the noise compared with the other efforts in getting an issue out. if you should have an idea to share, or even a useful product to plug, i'll be glad to have you write it up for publication. even if you want to be the proverbial "free rider" and just benefit from what others contribute--you're still welcome: everything will be public domain; feel free to copy it or give it away (or sell it, for that matter, 'cause if you can get money for it while i'm taking full-page ads trying to give it away, you're certainly entitled to your capitalist profit . . .) anyway, every application of these principles should make the world just a little freer, and i'm certainly willing to underwrite that, at least for the forseeable fu- i will leave you with one final thought: if you don't learn how to beat your plowshares into swords before they outlaw swords, then you sure as hell ought to learn before they outlaw plowshares too. --chuck hammill the libertech project 3194 queensbury drive los angeles, california 310-836-4157 hammill@netcom.com [the above libertech address was updated december 1992, with the permission of chuck hammill, by russell whitaker] those interested in the issues raised in this piece should participate in at least these newsgroups: alt.privacy alt.security.pgp comp.org.eff.talk sci.crypt a copy of the rsa-based public key encryption program, pgp 2.1 (pretty good privacy), can be obtained at various ftp sites around the world. one such site is gate.demon.co.uk, where an ms-dos version can be had by anonymous ftp as pgp22.zip in /pub/pgp. versions for other operating systems, including unix variants and macintosh, are also available. source code is also here's the blurb for pgp, by the way: - ---------------------- quote ---------------------------------------- pgp (pretty good privacy) ver 2.2 - rsa public-key encryption freeware for msdos, protects e-mail. lets you communicate securely with people you've never met, with no secure channels needed for prior exchange of keys. well featured and fast! excellent user documentation. pgp has sophisticated key management, an rsa/conventional hybrid encryption scheme, message digests for digital signatures, data compression before encryption, and good ergonomic design. source code is free. filenames: pgp22.zip (executable and manuals), pgp22src.zip (sources) privacy, authentication, signatures, email - ---------------------- end quote ------------------------------------- russell earl whitaker whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk communications editor amix: rwhitaker extropy: the journal of transhumanist thought board member, extropy institute (exi) -----begin pgp signature----- version: 2.2 iqcvagubk922pytj7/vxxwtpaqebkgqasgoxctzjdzmzurfm05nwm2obsolh/cfh ahrnb6dmp1o+4+yxar+bo4fpratnmmohn6wusooujz1qqqkghfolyru/tecdr9du irrb7tcwndksqc+wcti/q4+cmq3hrrrtnaiwyjmfaqxpeyrodvfdxc409umvgrjb 5igxfngaz78= =t1vu -----end pgp signature----- 
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 i have seen various references to 'triple des' recently. could anyone tell me what it is ? from context, i would guess that it means encrypting each block 3 times, with a different key each time, but i'd like to be sure. replies by email preferred - our news is unreliable. pgp public key available on request pgp public key available on request - disclaimer: please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16126">
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 "the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms" -- dorothy denning jhart@agora.rain.com you're reading far too much into this (aside from the obvious fact that you shouldn't hold anybody to what they wrote in a 10 year old book in a rapidly changing field like this.) quite simply she says that the security should not depend on the secrecy of the algorithm. a secret algorithm can still be secure, after all, we just don't know it. only our level of trust is affected, not the security of the system. the algorithm *could* be rsa for all we know, which we believe to be secure. they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security. they want to protect its market share. if they publish the algorithm, then shortly manufacturers would make chips that implement the algorithm and standard but do not use a key stored in escrow. and of course, everybody would buy them. the whole push of this chip is that by establishing a standard that you can only use if you follow their rules, they get us to follow their rules without enacting new laws that we would fight tooth and quite simply, with clipper established, it would be much harder for another encryption maker to define a new standard, to make phones that can't talk to the leading phone companies. the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds, for 99% of the to get untappable crypto, you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system, and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one. that's the chicken and egg of crypto. the government is using its very special ability to solve chicken and egg problems of new technologies to control this one in a way they like. it's almost admirably clever. when the eff started, i posed the question here "what are the police going to do when they wake up and discover they can't wiretap?" and nobody here had an answer (or even thought it was much of a question) then came the backdoor and digital telephony bills, which we fought. now we have their real answer, the cleverest of all. brad templeton, clarinet communications corp. -- sunnyvale, ca 408/296-0366 
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 |> is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details |> of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from... |> james b. shearer i do not think they can use the eavesdropping as evidence at all. however, using the info they gather while listening, they can go searching the right place and find good, strong evidence, which they can use in court. question : currently, it is easy to wire-tap, from the technical point of view, at least. anybody using the appropriate radio receiver can listen to communications between a car-telephone and the ground station. the police also, obviously. the clipper chip will make it much more difficult for the non-authorized person to eavesdrop (note that i do not write << impossible>> ). the privacy will thus improve from the current situation. poeple who really have something to hide already do not use the phone to speak of these things. if an illegal operation is really worth, one can afford having critical data carried by a person rather than sending it electronically. the clipper chip will not change this. the problem is more politic. foreign countries will never accept the clipper chip is the access to the escrow cannot be directly granted to their own police following their own law, not the us law. i.e. each country will have its own escrow. how then will it be possible to monitor the international traffic? or, will encrypted international traffic be possible ? or will there be an international escrow, some kind of u.n. thing ? forbidding crypted communication is impractical: how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks. what about private networks ? and this will be more and more impossible as the volume of electronic traffic will increrase in the next years. i think that the clipper chip can only be an interesting device to limit the risk of , for instance, one's girlfriend's husband listening to his wife's communications. it will bring no more as regards to security. is it worth ? i think so if its cost is limited, i think that many privacy invasions are done not only by official services, but also by private entities. the clipper can help reducing these. provided we do not hope too much of it, it is not a real danger and it can be helpful. ph. hoogvorst 
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 i'm afraid i have to disagree with you on that point. nsa will *not* tell rsa or any other non-dod entity anything that its eavesdropping i don't know about that; they might if they find it the most expedient way to keep people from using something they can't crack. 
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 i believe there is no technical means of ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining a secret of some kind. not necessarily. for instance, in the system outlined in the may 1993 issue of "byte", the process of getting one's public key listed for general use involves giving pieces of your private key to escrow agencies, which do calculations on those pieces and forward the result to the publishers of the public key directory, which combines these results into your listed public key. if you try to give the escrow agencies pieces which -don't- yield your private key when they are all put together, the result is that the public key listed for you is wrong and you can't read messages encrypted to you. 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16130">
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 forbidding crypted communication is impractical: how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks. what about private networks ? i suspect the government feels it is enough to prevent companies from offering secure encryption services. big companies don't take that kind of risk. they're too visible and have too much to lose. the us government may not have to make encryption illegal to prevent its use. if they could credibly say to ibm or mit: you will receive no us government money next year unless you follow these voluntary guidelines on use of encryption, i doubt either organization would delay making use of encryption a violation of local policies. the us government gets much of its power by making it impractical to operate without getting money from the government while putting restrictions on use of such money that would be illegal if they were enacted as laws. john carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu) 
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 [modify] pgp to allow it to compress/decompress 144 bit frames every 30msec... as part of the project i'm working on now, we're trying to get celp up and running in realtime full duplex mode... i gotta find the source to pgp and see how tough it would be to integrate the en/decryption parts into the code. i presume you are just going to use idea for the session encryption and transmit the session key with rsa? david r. conrad "no his mind is not for rent/to any god or government" = cat-talk conferencing network, computer conferencing and file archive = - 1-313-882-2209, 300bps-14400bps, v.32/v.32bis/turbopep new users use 'new' - = as a login id. available via pc-pursuit!!! (city code "midet") = e-mail address: dave@michigan.com 
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 perhaps these encryption-only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted? to paraphrase, i may not agree with what you're encrypting, but i defend your right to encrypt it. i suppose after waco, it's only prudent to leave the "to the death" part out. rob stampfli rob@colnet.cmhnet.org the neat thing about standards: 614-864-9377 ham radio: kd8wk@n8jyv.oh there are so many to choose from. 
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 i heard somewhere (can't name the source) that tempest does not necessarily pick-up just crts, but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip. if that is true, the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked-up from the video controller. can anybody verify or refute this? you are correct (several times). tempest is a codeword for a standard, shared between the nato governments, to limit the inadvertent emission of information by either electromagnetic radiation or conduction. the limits set in the standard are classified but there is open source information to the effect that either the electrical or magnetic components of electromagnetism can be exploited. it is a basic rule of physics that there is an electromagnetic field associated with any path that conducts a flow of electrons. among other things, i drive a 1987 korean built at clone and an associated 24 pin dotmatrix printer. the major source of unintentional emission is the crt. to that can be added the video driver card, the rs232 parallel cable and the printer head. the emissions from these are gross can be detected with the crudest of equipment. were i to apply good test equipment and some intelligence to measuring emission levels, i would find many other potential sources of leaked information. where cryptography is used for serious purposes, poor tempest protection becomes an important security hazard. in the early eighties, the need to allow some commercial concerns, particularly financial institutions, a level of protection against tempest threat led to a series of briefings to invited corporations and to the 'release' of a cut-down tempest stansard for commercial use. i say 'release' for while equipment to meet the standard is available (at a price and to approved customers) afaik even the commercial standard remains classified. if you think about it, it would really have to wouldn't it? -= owen lewis =- tele/fax +44-(0)794-301731 eloka consultancy & project management oml@eloka.demon.co.uk pgp 2.x public key on request 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16136">
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 this is stupid. won't it cost more to those companies hoping to serve the gov't and private markets if they don't use the same i would guess that they won't use clipper at all. what they will do is use their stu-iiis amoung themselves and the governmental agencies they need to talk to, and ignore clipper. after all, if it's not secure enough for the agency/department they are communicating with why should the coprations trust it? \jeff hupp |internet: jhupp@shockwave.win.net \ |9797 medowglen, apt. 1807 |ad: contract programming, novell | |houston, texas 77042 | network design and support. | |voice: (713) 780 - 9419 |"the best govenment doesn't" -- me. | \_____________________________________________________________________\ 
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 but i think that mind-set is a mistake. before there were cattle prods, governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses. before there were lasers for eavesdropping, governments used binoculars and lip-readers. though government certainly uses technology to oppress, the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools. evil and good walk hand in hand. it is also important to note that the good in the tools lies in the wielder of the tools. in fact, technology represents one of the most promis- ing avenues available for re-capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them. i cannot accept this ridiculous leap in logic. technology is neutral to good or evil. when technology is used by "evil" men, it is called evil technology. when it is used by "good" men, it is called good technology. really, it is just technology that allows action to be realized more efficently and on a larger scale. by its very nature, it favors the bright (who can put it to use) over the dull (who can- not). try not to confused the development of technology with its use. certainly, "bright" people will be better at creating technology, but even young children know how to program vcr machines. are vcr machines not extremely complex to create? it favors the adaptable (who are quick to see the merit of the new (over the sluggish (who cling to time- tested ways). adaptibility and flexibility is always better at enduring than the stiff and stubborn. a young child is soft and supple; an old man is stiff and inflexible. a dripping of water can cut through stone. this has nothing to do with technology, rather technology just allows us to magnify action. and what two better words are there to de- scribe government bureaucracy than "dull" and "sluggish"? i have no objection to this! :) joshp@cmu.edu /o)\ silent \(o/ thunder 
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 quoting amanda@intercon.com (amanda walker) in article <1rn1b3$khb@news.intercon.com>: guns are offensive. cryptography is defensive. see the difference? nope. information, properly delivered, can be just as deadly as lead. the same is true of lemon meringue pie. __ _____ \/ o\ paul crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \\ // /\__/ trust me. i know what i'm doing. \x/ fold a fish for jesus! 
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 why are people willing to trust the stu-iii? because the government does? \jeff hupp |internet: jhupp@shockwave.win.net \ |9797 medowglen, apt. 1807 |ad: contract programming, novell | |houston, texas 77042 | network design and support. | |voice: (713) 780 - 9419 |"the best govenment doesn't" -- me. | \_____________________________________________________________________\ 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16144">
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 i heard somewhere (can't name the source) that tempest does not necessarily pick-up just crts, but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip. if that is true, the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked-up from the video controller. can anybody verify or refute this? anything can be an emissions problem, right down to the video cable. given the right equipment, you can pick the screen paint from the cable. but, given any cable, you must know what is being sent through it to know the format of the signal, as well as how many wires, etc. 
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 you all mention that the algorithm is classified and have expressed concerns and ideas of how to figure out the algorithm using software. the question that i have is why cant someone take one of these chips and reverse engineer it? i mean, take the thing to a chip testing/ analysis facility, one with a decent electron microscope. just pry off the top of the chip and start scanning it with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry. i remembered a place that i use to work for had one of these facilities that they used to analyze chips that we accidently blew out while running tests. they could actually find the area that was fried and show us where in the circuit it was. i am sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential is there, especially at a university where the security at such a facility is looser, for someone to take a clipper apart and analyze it? what can the government do to prevent this? start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes?? they are using some technology developed by vlsi systems, the other manufacturer of the clipper chips, that produces chips that are supposed to be highly resistant to reverse engineering. matthew lyle matt@oc.com matt@utdallas.bitnet openconnect system, dallas, texas (214) 888-0474 
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 they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security. they want to protect its market share. that's one way to put it. keeping the algorithm classified means that disclosure of it falls under the rubric of "national security." nothing like federal marshalls to guard a monopoly... the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds, for 99% of the agreed, although this is still somewhat better than the status quo :). to get untappable crypto, you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system, and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one. sounds like a job for the free software foundation :)/2... amanda walker intercon systems corporation 
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<instance id="sci.crypt16151">
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 : i have seen various references to 'triple des' recently. could anyone : tell me what it is ? from context, i would guess that it means : encrypting each block 3 times, with a different key each time, but : i'd like to be sure. : replies by email preferred - our news is unreliable. could people replying to the above question post their responses here as well, as i'm sure others (including myself) would like to hear them. # jon saville # who alive can say, 'thou art no | keats, # ee92jks@brunel.ac.uk # poet, may'st not tell thy dreams?' | 1819 pgp 2.2 public key available upon request or by finger 
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 |> so, the question is: has a "fast" hash |> function been designed for hardware implementation ? yes, you can use a stream cipher chip to hash data with only slight modification. see: `a fast cryptographic checksum algorithm based on stream ciphers', x lai, ra rueppel, j woolven, auscrypt 92 pp 8-7 to 8-11. 
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 i don't wish to rehash the pgp patent issue at all, but i do feel that some potential misconceptions in interpretting intellectual property laws need to be raised. if pgp violates rsas patents, then only executing pgp could be a violation. distributing pgp could be contributory infringement, but the pgp documentation seemed sufficient to me to protect distributors (before i deleted it -- using pgp might be a patent violation in the us, so i have no need to keep it.) you are correct that executing pgp would be a violation (unless the patent were declared invalid by the courts), but... there is a question as to when, how, or if distributing pgp would be a violation. if the person or company distributing pgp receives money for doing so, then it is clearly a sale (for example, if it were on compuserve, they charge you for access so they would be selling pgp). when there is no charge for pgp things get less clear, but there would still be a reasonable view that it is inducing an infringement. ... [nb re: jim bidzos] you have no legal action you can take, unless you believe you can prove someone is using pgp in the us, for a purpose other than that specifically allowed by patent laws. (not entirely correct, anyone can sue for any reason, but, you cannot prevail unless you can prove that by a prepoderance of evidence). under patent laws, pgp does have legitimate uses, as a means to study your algorithm, in order to produce improvements (which would still require your approval to execute, until the patent runs out around 2000). this is a common misconception. the patent laws do not mention any valid purpose for infringing a patent. although it is clear that in order to create a new invention either based on a prior patent or to avoid infringing a prior patent, one must perform research on an existing patent. to just say that you infringed a patent (assume we're not talking the rsa patent) only for research purposes (wink wink, nudge nudge) and then never develop any related invention (ie. only use it), would be a clear glenn tenney voice: (415) 574-3420 fax: (415) 574-0546 tenney@netcom.com ham radio: aa6er 
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 part of the basis for my belief is that we [nsa] have more people, spend much more money, and have much better hardware than anyone else. the same could be said for many other goverment agencies, but big budgets, large staffs, and long lead time haven't made many of them into models of the fact is that those of us outside the inner circles have only james bamford's word that the people at the nsa use those legendary masses of computers for anything other than reading netnews, like many of us. the nsa *doesn't* have an impressive record of accomplishments, at least not a public record. david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information, errors and omissions excepted. this, on the other hand, is priceless! where's it from? 
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 anyone interested in adopting british telecom's quantum encryption scheme? they've demonstrated it over a 10 km link. it automatically detects can you tell us more? 
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 : what if clipper is fairly secure but leaves a distinct clipper signature... : that is, what if it's not too difficult to tell that a msg. was clipper : encrypted, even if you can't tell the contents? in that case, anyone : who is trying to hide behind anther encryption scheme will stand out : from all of the other traffic and raise a red flag to the nsa, etc. i think the obvious answer (which may have been posted, but i haven't seen it) is to encrypt your data with some other scheme, then run it through clipper. the only way the police will be able to detect the other encryption is through a wiretap, so even if they do notice with an illegal wiretap, i have a hard time seeing a judge issuing a warrant for a search to "confiscate" the illegal scheme (assuming that at one day, it comes to this; a worse case) based on an illegal wiretap. then again, maybe i am an idealist. :> : ben liberman internet ben@genesis.mcs.com : ben@tai.chi.il.us michael sawyer - my opinions are mine, not necessarily uh's, nsf's, or nasa's university of hawaii physical oceanography/satellite remote sensing ripem public key available, md5ofpublickey: c53c8744a87664168d135c0763dccc1d 
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 i can think of a couple of ways of guaranteeing authenticity in a one-time pad encrytped scheme, though i'm not sure how to prove that what kind of authenicity they provide. an obvious first-attempt might be to prepend a truly random (unpredictable for eve) block to the message, and then calculate a crc which included the random starting block and all of the message. this could be encrypted after the message. the problem is, i'm not sure it's impossible to come up with a message that will hash to the same crc regardless of the random starting block. (it intuitively seems like it ought to be hard, but i'm not *that* sure....) clearly, a crypto-strength hash like md5 or the sha would be stronger, but again, i'm not sure i'm comfortable claiming that it's a scheme to use up some of the pad bits to decide how many bits of 0's to include in the plaintext stream before going on wouldn't be too bad, either. at the cost of increasing the speed with which you use up your pad, this could be used to give you arbitrarily low probability that your opponent could spoof a valid-looking message, since any deciphered plaintext in a spot that should be carrying 0's will show that something funny's going if, for each message bit m_i, we used up one random bit, r_i, to decide whether to insert a 0 into the plaintext stream, we'd get a total pad use of 2.5 times the message length. (we'd expand the message size by about half.) each 0 that should appear in the plaintext stream that doesn't is a guess for our would-be spoofer. at each bit, she has to guess. i'm trying to see how to quantify her chances of making it all the way through the spoofed message, but it gets a little complicated, because she can get un- synched, and still happen to have a 0 in that place in the spoofed message. now, i can see a simple way of doing this that's got to be as secure as a one-time pad, at a cost of using 4 times the message length in pad bits. for each message bit, m_i, use one random bit, r_i, and xor them together to get x_i. now, encrypt the three bits with the one-time pad. the enemy has no way of guessing what r_i is, so he/she can't guess what x_i is, either. any change she makes in the ciphertext stream will have to involve a guess of what r_i was. is there any way to do this without using so many pad bits? spoofing the message is equivalent to correctly guessing as many random bits as there are bits in the message. clearly, this makes spoofing messages just as hard if you know the whole message text as if you know none of it. in fact, it looks to me like this makes it just as hard to generate a spoofed message with the ciphertext as without it, but i'm not entirely sure about is there an easier way of doing this that's provably as secure as the one-time pad? --john kelsey 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52446">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52446" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 new england area major flea market *** dates *** 1993 p 1 of 2 all events are ham radio/ electronic related except ~_____~ 1993 contact source 3 april upper saddle river nj crrc 9-3 sell @8 jack w2ehd 201 768 8360 d 4 april southington ct sara @hs $20@6:3 $10@8:3 $3@9 n1gcv 203 621 6191 f 17 april nashua nh ne antique rc $5@8 $1@9 @ res ctr church ray 508 865 1290 18 april cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f buy $2@9a sellers $10/sp@7a $8in adv $35 for season pass 3rd sunday each month april thru october 18 april webster ma ecara @ pt breeze rest $3 tables $10 gary 203 974 2564 f 18 april agawam ma hcra @ southwick rec ctr $3@9a bob w1zgp 203 653 0715 f 23,24,25 april dayton oh adm $11 sell $30/50++ evenings 513 767 1107 f 2 may yonkers ny @lincoln hs otto wb2slq 914 969 1053 a 7-8 may rochester nh hoss traders @fg ex13 off rt 16 $5 noon fri wa1ivb sase 15 may n smithfield ri rifmrs @vfw main st 8a rick k1kyi 401 725 7507 16 may cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 16 may pittsfield ma @taconic hs sell $5@7 buy $2@8 cliff w1sjv 413 743 3334 21-22-23 may rochester ny arrl-ny conv @ monroe fg harold k2hc 800 724 8515 f 5 june s burlington vt mitch wb2jsj 802 879 6589 6 june newington ct @hs flea les ka1krp 203 523 0453 12 june bangor me pine st arc @hermon es 146.34/94 8am-$2 roger 207 848 3846 20 june cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 17 july nashua nh ne antique rc $5@8 $1@9 @ res ctr church ray 508 865 1290 17 july union me @ fairground $3@7am state conv skeet ka1lpw 207 622 2915 last update 3-29-93 de w1gsl p 1 of 2 additions/ corrections via internet w1gsl@athena.mit.edu us mail w1gsl pob 82 mit br cambridge ma 02139 sase for updated copy as issued. 1993 contact source 18 july cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 3rd sunday each month april thru october 24 july manchester nh nhara @hi 8a$4 ne dc 300ts (no tg) wb1hbb 603 432 6011 f 8 aug white planes ny wecafest sarah n2eyx 914 962 9666 d 8 aug wellseley ma wars+bars @babson college barry wn1n 508 877 4947 t 14 aug st albans me @ snow mobile club hitch k1hhc 207 796 2282 15 aug cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 29 aug fall river ma bcra tom wa1lbk 508 674 4163 t+ 11 sept windsor me @ fairground $3@7am skeet ka1lpw 207 622 2915 12 sept gaithersburg md far @mg cty fg $5@6a- $7tg nancy drahim 703 691 0078 j 12 sept s dartmouth ma se mass ara 8a- dan n1hcv 508 933 0678 + 19 sept cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 19 sept sandy hook ct candlewood ara harold kb1us a 25 sept greenbush me wcsn/barc @wcsn xmtr ed cockburn 207 732 4366 26 sept framingham ma @ hs $12@8 $5@9 $2@10 barry wn1n 508 877 4947 f 26 sept yonkers ny metro 70 arc otto wb2slq 914 969 1053 a 15,16 oct rochester nh hoss traders @fg ex13 off rt 16 $5 noon fri k1rqg 17 oct cambridge ma flea at mit nick 617 253 3776 f 13 nov plymouth ma mayflower rc @mem hall 9-3 sell@8 jim nm1f 508 747 2224 14 nov branford ct scara @intrm sch brad wa1tas 203 265 9983 t last update 3-29-93 de w1gsl p 2 of 2 source f= flyer j= john roberts list a= arrl list wr nv 73 cq qst = mags t= tentative early info d= w1dl + = new info this month this list has been compiled from many sources. while we believe the info to be accurate the author can not be responsible for changes or errors. check with the sponsoring organizations for more details. this list will be posted monthly to usenet if additions have been made. mailed copies are sent when additions are made. additions/ corrections via internet w1gsl@athena.mit.edu us mail w1gsl pob 82 mit br cambridge ma 02139 sase for updated copy as issued. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52464">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52464" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 a couple of years ago i put together a tesla circuit which was published in an electronics magazine and could have been the circuit which is referred to here. this one used a flyback transformer from a tv onto which you wound your own primary windings. it also used 2 power transistors in a to 3 10 years ago i built a 1'000,000 volt tesla, and the thing was very spectacular, but besides scaring/amazing friends (depending on their knowledge of science), and generating strong emi, i never found anything useful that could be done with it ... is there any real-world application for tesla coils today ? david prutchi first of all, realize that tesla invented ac power generators, motors, transformers, conductors, etc. technically, *all* transformers are tesla coils. in general though when someone refers to a tesla coil, they mean an "air core resonant transformer". the tv flyback version tesla coil (see the _encyclopedia_of_electronic_circuits_ v3, 106-1 for diagram) has not an air core. it is of a class of circuit called "oscillating shuttle circuit" (osc). generally osc's are highly efficient, but this version uses transistors and resistors, which are very lossy devices. typically tesla used active reactances instead of passive resistors, so that he could achieve efficiencies of 99.5%, and better. the usual application of an air-core resonant transformer, or of an osc, is to produce strong emi for wireless broadcasts. how well do you think your computer screen would work if we removed the hf hv tesla (flyback) coil from it? if we were to remove from our homes and industries all tesla coils, our lights would go dark, our cars would sputter and die, our radios would go silent, our industries would grind to a halt, and we would have to go back to using coal for heat, gas for lamps, horses for transportation, steam for power, and telegraph for communication. is that real world enough for you??????? get the message! we would not have 1/100 the convieniences we have today if not for tesla. give credit where credit is due! if it had been up to edison, we'd still be in the 19th century. (flame me at your own peril. i'm very good at putting edison down). et "tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. perhaps now his time comes". 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52717">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52717" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 eric h. taylor writes ... if you are determined to go faster, get an airplane. they dont have speed limits. just don't make a habit of buzzing your local airport at >200 knots (250 knots if you're flying a jet). :-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52719">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52719" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 similarly, people usually use db for dbm. another common mistake is spelling ``db'' instead of ``db'' as you did in your article. see the ``b'' is for ``bell'' company, the mother of at&t and should be capitalized. thus, a decibell (deci-, l., tenth of + bell) is a fractional part of the original bell. for example, southwestern bell is a decibell. and the measure of current, amp, is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company. both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires. the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, thus our use of the ohms... alexander graham bell, actually, is where bell came from... actually, bel refers with highest regards, babak sehari. joseph chiu | josephc@cco.caltech.edu "os/2: you gotta get this thing!" msc 380 - caltech | pasadena, ca 91126 | os/2: the operating system of tomorrow, today. +1 818 449 5457 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52724">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52724" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 for an upcoming project i want to use 4 megs of dram configured as two 2 meg banks of 16 bit data. i was wondering if anyone out there knows of a dram controller which will handle refreshing the data. it's ok if the controller doesn't handle bank switching - that part is easy. the only controllers i know of are the ones out of the national semiconductor dram management handbook (1988 edition) eg. dp8429. i would like to know if another manufacturer produces one which may be easier to implement in my circuit. btw, if anyone is wanting to hook up dram to a microcontroller, dallas semiconductor makes a neat chip: the ds1262 serial dram nonvolatizer chip. it uses the spi (i2c) bus and refreshes/controls up to 16mx1 of dram memory. it can use an external battery to refresh the dram when the power is off. price is $11.75 from dallas (quan 1). i wish i could use this chip but its maximum spi clock rate is 1 mhz (too slow for me...). thanks in advance, wayne schellekens <schellew@wu2.wl.aecl.ca> wayne schellekens, ve4wts internet: schellew@wu2.wl.aecl.ca aecl research ax.25: ve4wts@ve4kv.#wpg.mb.can whiteshell laboratories twisted pair: (204)753-2311 x2317 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52726">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52726" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was wondering if anyone knows of a chip that that is similar to the internal timer 0 on the intel 80c188? i want a timer that has a maxcount a and b and the output should the same as intel's timer. i called intel and they told me that they don't make such a chip. any suggestions are welcome. thanks in advance. rajan ranga e-mail: rajan@cco.caltech.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52727">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52727" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 jeh@cmkrnl.com this is almost exactly the reason i keep only the latest databook around. too many times last years books turn into three years ago and the data in them doesn't match the current production parts. -alan kilian but... if you are in the habit of trying to repair old and obsolete machines, the old data books are a goldmine of information you can not get anywhere else. if you are trying to find a modern replacement for an obsolete part, the original specs really come in handy. design out of the new books but save the old ones (or donate them to a ham). if anybody in phoenix disagrees, i'll drive over and help them 'get rid' of all their old data books. (450 data books and growing) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52729">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52729" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 c >hi: c >i have a 486dx2-66mhz computer to use with an a/d board c >for data acquisition on an at bus...i'm having problems. c >the at bus runs at 12.5 mhz - correct? so there should c >be no bus speed conflict. but i read somewhere that the c >new 486dx2-66 mhz cpu runs on a 33 mhz bus - is that for c >the local bus or the at bus also - if so then i have a problem. c >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ c >when i run on non-turbo-mode the speed goes to 8 mhz and the c >a/d doesn't work. please mail your views! thanks. c >vincent c >cyl5@musica.mcgill.ca c > the standard at bus (isa) runs at 8mhz, not 12.5 mhz, but some non-stnadard isa buses do have higher clock rates, but be careful, since some boards don't work with faster than standard rates. for instance, my 486 has adjustable at bus speeds, and my pas16 audio card chokes when i do ad data acquisition with a bus speed faster than 10mhz. the fact that non-turbo-mode speed a/d doesn't work is weird. you may have a motherboard with a hardware 'bug'. 33 mhz bus on the 486dx2 66 does refer to the local bus. fyi: the at bus operates asynchronously, and is linked to the local bus via a 'bus interface', which is one function that your 'chipset'. . winqwk 2.0b#0 . unregistered evaluation copy * kmail 2.95d w-net hq, hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us, +1 313 663 4173 or 3959 | hal 9000 bbs: qwk-to-usenet gateway | four 14400 v.32bis dial-ins | | free usenet mail and 200 newsgroups! | pcboard 14.5am * uupcb * kmail | | call +1 313 663 4173 or 663 3959 +--------------------------------+ | member of eff, asp, asad * 1500mb disk * serving ann arbor since 1988 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52731">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52731" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 these circuits abound in most electronic project books. if you're more inclined to buy something, try radio shack. i think they still have a device that is designed to disconnect an answering machine when an extension line is lifted. it has led indicators also. --kyler 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52732">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52732" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 there are a few more details to radar and some rumors that are not true. a common one is that two beams are sent one reading the car speed and one the ground speed. if this were true then calabration would be murder. hope this helps (flame on) gee, then i guess the extra horn that's mounted in the floor of some sdpd cars, firing at the ground at a shallow angle, is just for show, huh? (for calibration, they simply turn off one horn or the other.) --- jamie hanrahan, kernel mode systems, san diego ca internet: jeh@cmkrnl.com uucp: uunet!cmkrnl!jeh cis: 74140,2055 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52733">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52733" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi there, i am looking for a high quality log/stereo 10k pot for an audio preamplifier. the design specifies alps rkga-2 10k ax2, but i cannot find it anywhere! any suggestions? the best pots around (imho) are made by penny & giles in the uk. their basic model has a solid brass case, and conductive plastic elements matched to 0.5db across the whole rotation. the downside is that they cost upwards of 50 quid each :-( the p&g pots are very good. the alps ones are usually carried by the same folks who run the audio amateur magazine. i'll also recommend the noble potentiometers, if you don't mind weird metric sizes on everything. --scott 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52734">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52734" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 the manual also got into the "cosine effect", wherein the motorist always gets the benefit of the doubt (effectively). depending on relative directions of the radar gun and target car, the reading will always be the same as or lower than the actual speed of the car. never higher. and always remember that the cop doesn't even need radar to ticket you. his (her?) word as a skilled observer is enough. the father of a friend of mine is a police officer in west virginia. not only is his word as a skilled observer good in court, but his skill as an observer has been tested to be more accurate than the radar gun in some cases . . .. no foolin! he can guess a car's speed to within 2-3mph just by watching it blow by - whether he's standing still or moving too! (yes, i realize that calibrated guns are more accurate than this, but . . .). his ability is not that uncommon among people who watch moving things for a living, i have heard . . .. so what good is a radar detector except to give you a split second warning that the guy who just cut you off to pass the guy ahead and to your left is about to panic stop from 85 on a crowded freeway??? mark s. underwood ee student, university of kentucky lab assistant, boyd hall microlab (a tiny little division of uk library microlabs) e-mail: msunde01@mik.uky.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52735">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52735" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 thanks for the resposes as they were all good ideas and i am looking at using a couple of the ideas. i recieved in the mail today the spec sheets on the mil. spec version of exar's xr-2240 timer/counter chip. it is stable down to -50 c and sucks very little power. they show an application for a ultra-long time delay (up to several years depending on the rc time constant). in this application, they have two of them cascaded together. the reset and trigger pins of both chips are tied together and the timebase of the second chip is disabled. in this configuration, the output is high when the system is reset. when triggered, the output goes low and stays that way for a total of 65,536 x the timing cycle of the first chip. the total timing cycle of the two chips can be programmed from to = 256 x r x c to 65,536 x r x c in 256 steps by selecting any combination of the counter outputs to the timer output. the beauty of it is, the timebase chip would only have to have a 100uf timing cap and a 391k resistor for 39.1 seconds per timing cycle. so i can get a maximum of 2,562,457.6 seconds between timing cycles (39.1 x 65,536 or about 29 days !) of course, that's much more than i need (14 days). but the counter allows for 256 binary steps that can be selected for the output for the 'pellet puker'. after the first 14 days and it trips, it would reset its self for the next 14 day timing cycle and so forth. power is still a problem though. a few ideas that you suggested was to bury the electronics in a hole dug in the snow (as an insulator) and put the pellet puker up on a tower above the estimated snow fall with a solar panel on it to keep a charge on a lithium battery pack. i like that idea ;-) this thing has to work for at least six weeks for three samples and the gas valves are 12 volts to spit the pellets out onto the snow. anyway, i ordered the xr-2240's to see what i can do with them. should be interesting (as long as i'm not the one that has to go digging up the pellets in the middle of antartica freezing my buns off ;-) thanks again everyone... -=-= wes =-=- 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52737">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52737" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 in nz apparently things like aftershave are also giving positive 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52738">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52738" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i too had trouble finding hc11's when i looked for them a while back. i'd be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now... the newest jdr microdevices catalog has at least one variant of the hc11. rainer m. malzbender fyzzicks, cu boulder (303)492-1366 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52745">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52745" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 there is at least one optically-isolated rs-232 transceiver chip. i don't remember where i saw it. rs components (they exist in australia and the uk. don't know about the us) have little chips called isolated max 250 and 251. they give you isolated rs-232 from a single 5v supply. external components are 4 caps, 4 optoisolators, a diode, and an isloting transformer. they go up to 19.2k baud.. john west for the humour impaired: insert a :-) after every third word 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52746">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52746" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 recently, my video monitor went dead, no picture, some low distorted sound. i didn't hear the tell-tale cracking that indicated hv at work, nor are the filaments at the far end of the tube glowing orange, just nothing. on examining the power board, i noticed the largest capacitor with a very bad bulge at the top. naturally, i want to replace it, but i can't find any sources. the electrolytic capacitor is 330 mf at 250wv. it has radial leads, and is roughly 1 1/2 inches long, 1 1/8" wide. the dimensions are important since the whole board fits in a metal cage, leaving little room. living in the los angeles area, i've been to numerous stores (dow radio, all electronics, itc elect, sandy's, yale elect) with empty hands. can anyone suggest sources for high-voltage capacitors? mail order is fine, although i'd rather check out a store to compare the can. i'm going to try a video electronics store, hopefully they'll have hv caps. (by the way, the monitor is a atari sc1224, goldstar circuitry, masushita tube. anyone else had problems?) thanks in advance, rich k. email> rkim@opus.calstatela.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52748">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52748" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 |> >was told by other people that it just takes a long time. i heard |> >rumors that the hc11 is very hard to get these days and is being |> >replaced by the 711 series. the sales person is trying to push |> >the 711. can someone please tell me what is going on with these |> >microcontrollers. i can't seem to get a straight answer. |> i too had trouble finding hc11's when i looked for them a while back. |> i'd be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now... |> thanks, |> pat the hc711 is an eprom version of the hc11. raw hc11 parts have factory set rom images, and as such are useless to the hobbyist. hc811 parts have eeprom, allowing for electrical erasure and reprogramming. some motorola parts (such as the hc705k1) have eprom, making them user programmable, but come with options of either windowed or sealed. the more expensive windowed packages allow multiple use, the plastic dip varieties are one-time programmable, since there is no way of exposing the eprom array to light. | _ |_ _ |_| _ _| _| electronics department |_| (_) | | | | | | (_| (_| (_| \/ school of mpce ---------------------------------/- macquarie university sydney, australia 2109 email: johnh@mpce.mq.edu.au, ph: +61 2 805 8959, fax: +61 2 805 8983 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52749">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52749" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the subject line says it all. i'm working on a project that will use a car battery. i need to pull off 3v and possibly 48v at 3a. i have several ideas, but i'd prefer to benefit from all you brilliant people :-) "conquest is easy, control is not" | tom glinos @ u of toronto statistics [star trek tos] | tg@utstat.toronto.edu usl forgot this simple history lesson 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52751">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52751" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 )>>>>>>>>> votre host est mal configure... <<<<<<<<<<<< )bonjour sylvain, ) j'ai travaille avec le hc11 il y a 3 ans et je ne me souviens pas de toutes les possibilites mais je vais quand meme essayer de t'aider. ) je ne crois pas que downloader une programme directement dans le eeprom soit une bonne idee (le eeprom a une duree de vie limitee a 10 000 cycles il me semble). le communication break down vient peut-etre du fait que le eeprom est long a programmer (1ms par 8 bytes mais c'est a verifier) et que les delais de transfer de programme s19 vers la memoire sont excedes. normalement, les transferts en ram du code s19 est plus rapide car le ram est plus rapide que le eeprom en ecriture. ) c'est tout ce que ma memoire me permet de me souvenir! )bonne chance, oh yeah easy for him to say!... ken thompson n0itl ncr corp. peripheral products division disk array development 3718 n. rock road wichita ks 67226 (316)636-8783 ken.thompson@wichitaks.ncr.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52752">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52752" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 *after a considerable amount of research, review of discussions *on this group, and mainly fruitless time on breadboards, i have *decided that the path of least resistance for prototyping my (not *necessarily someone else's) electronic designs is wire wrapping. i have no idea about what you want to do, but be careful : wire wrapping increases a lot the wiring capacitance. that shouldn't be a problem for "slow" applications (i.e a few mhz), but as for quicker ones (around 30 / 40 mhz), i doubt that it can work. fortunately, wire-wrapping is a better wiring technique than most at high frequencies; cray computers (up to the x-mp, at least) all had wirewrapped backplanes. wirewrap gets into trouble at much higher frequencies than any ttl can handle. the 'increase' of wiring capacitance is not really relevant (you have to use transmission line techniques, and the capacitance is no problem). *1) where can i get a decent wrapping tool? i'd like to spend less *than $150 for an ac powered unit including bit and sleeve. hand powered is the best. there are good ac powered ones, but rather expensive. a low-cost one doesn't work very well. hand-powered is a terrible choice (imho) unless you are a field maintenance person who will do maybe a dozen connections at a time. your hands will cramp. battery-powered wire-wrap guns are available in the $150 range, and so are the little twiddle-stick manual types ($15). for a modest project, of a couple hundred connections, i'd prefer to borrow a professional ac unit... or a pneumatic one. john whitmore 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52753">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52753" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i'm trying to figure out how to operate a pioneer laserdisc ld-1000 that i bought at a surplus store. it is reputedly from some kind of computerised viewing and/or ordering system. there is what may be an hpib connector on the back. when i power it up, the front panel power light comes on, but no activity, and the door doesn't open. anyone have any experience with this unit or any ideas on how to obtain documentation? what you have is one of the ld players from a video game (dragon's lair, space ace, etc). call pioneer technicial support 213-498-0300 (at least that's the number i called them at) and ask for the ld-v1000 interface guide. it shows how the parallel interface should be wired and the codes for the commands (play, pause, reject, etc). the guide is mainly for hooking the player to a computer, but with a little work, you could build a wired jim keais jkeais@ucssun1.sdsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52754">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52754" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 |> (1) don't use big capacitors. they are unreliable for timing due to |> leakage. true (especially for electrolytic capacitors at high temperature). |> instead, use a quartz crystal and divide its frequency by 2 40 times |> or something like that. ... wouldn't a crystal be affected by cold? my gut feeling is that, as a mechanically resonating device, extreme cold is likely to affect the compliance (?terminology?) of the quartz, and hence its resonant frequency. low power quartz oscillators are usually 32 khz (and these have significant temperature drifts, which one doesn't often notice while wearing the watch on one's wrist). low temperature sensitivity is available in other crystal types, which unfortunately are larger and higher frequency (1 mhz or so) and take more battery power. programmable timers might be less accurate, but they are more power-stingy than suitable crystal oscillators. john whitmore 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52755">
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 yes, i know it's nowhere near christmas time, but i'm gonna loose net access in a few days (maybe a week or 2 if i'm lucky), and wanted to post this for interested people to save 'till xmas. :-( note: bell labs is a good place if you have a phd and a good boss, i have neither. another version of a variable brightness xmas light set: this set starts with a 2 blinker 35 bulb string. diagram: orginal 2 way set 120v---+--b-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--! !---b-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-! 120rtn_____________________! modified set for 2 level brightness: string 1 120v---------*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--! \_10k_______*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-! 5w ! string 2 ! b ________________! 120v rtn__!___! ^ note: no mods to wiring to the right of this point. only one blinker is used. note that the blinker would not have as much current thru it as the string 1 bulbs, because of the second string of bulbs in parallel with it. that's why the use of the 10k 5w resistor here to add extra current thru the blinker to make up for the current shunted thru the second string while the blinker is glowing and the second string is not glowing. when the blinker goes open, this resistor has only a slight effect on the brightness of the strings, s1 slightly dimmer, s2 slightly brighter. or use a 3w 120v bulb in place of the 10k resistor if you can get one. caution, do not replace with a standard c9 bulb, as these draw too much current and burn out the blinker. c9 = approx 7w. what you'll see when it's working: powerup, string 1 will light at full brightness, and b will be lit, bypassing most of the current from the second string, making them not light. b will open, placing both strings in series, making the string that was out to glow at a low brightness, and the other string that was on before to glow at reduced brightness. be sure to wire and insulate the splices, resistor leads, and cut wires in a safe manner! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52760">
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 if you know much about pc's (ibm comp) you might try the joystick port. though i haven't tried this myself, i've been told that the port has built in a-d converters. this would allow the joystick to be a couple of pots. if you could find the specs this might just work for you... i guess 100k, connecting pins 1-3 (1x), 1-6 (1y), 9-11 (2x), and 9-13 (2y). or: get an 8-bit da-converter (merely a couple of transistors and resistors) and an opamp to compare its output to the voltage you want to measure, connect them to a spared printer port (if you have one), and do the rest by software (stepwise refinement). the port addresses for your printer ports are probably: &h378 (lpt1), &h278 (lpt2). this should work well enough for your purposes. hope this helps gmd, schloss birlinghoven, postfach 1316, d-5205 st. augustin 1, frg e-mail: peter.hendricks@gmd.de ph@zi.gmd.dbp.de ph@gmd.de 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52761">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52761" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if you know much about pc's (ibm comp) you might try the joystick port. though i haven't tried this myself, i've been told that the port has built in a-d converters. this would allow the joystick to be a couple of pots. if you could find the specs this might just work for you... i believe that the "a-d converters" found on a joystick port are really timers that tick off how long it takes an r-c circuit (the r being your paddle) to charge up to something like 1/2 vcc. for games this works pretty well, but you certainly wouldn't want to try to take lab measurements off something as non-linear as that. hmm... i suppose you could linearize it in software, but the real problem is that the precision of your measurement is no longer constant (higher voltages would be more precise). on the other hand, i could be wrong and perhaps the game card designers splurged for the extra $.50 to make a cheap constant current source out of an op amp. but i wouldn't expect that... ---joel kolstad 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52762">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52762" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i want to convert a 500 volt sinewave with frequency between 1 khz and 10 khz, to a 10 volt sinewave with the same frequency, by means of a transformer. the secondary current will be .6 a (600 ma). what kind of transformer should i use (ferrite?) can i buy one? if so, i need a partnumber and supplier if i cannot buy one, how do i go about winding one myself? what core do i use, how big must it be in order not to saturate, what thickness copper wire, how many turns, etc.? i know little about analog electronics, so i hope some kind soul here will help me out. pointers to relevant databooks will also be highly appreciated. mark de rooi rooi@tpd.tno.nl 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52764">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52764" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : please don't ask questions like "why don't you buy a soundblaster". the : answer is simple "overpriced considering the sound quality". why not try one of the projects to build a dac connected to the parallel port as documented in some files which come with modplay ? these vary from a 4 dac design to a simple single dac made only of resistors.-- david hembrow eo europe ltd., email: dhembrow@eoe.co.uk abberley house, granhams road, great shelford, cambridge cb2 5lq, england 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52769">
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 anyone know a reasonable circuit for programming pals? i am interested in programming a wide range of eplds but would be happy with something that could handle a 22v10 or thereabouts. i too would be interested in any information on the subject of programing pals etc..... better to know what your on about before you start something, i always say. often saves you a packet as well !! thanks in advance.. chris ;-) |name : mr chris smith | twang on that 'ole guitar ! | |addrs: scst83@uk.ac.liv | | |uni : liverpool university |quest: to build more and more hardware | |dgree: computer science | | "what ever the sun may be, it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas!" -- d.h. lawrence. * all views expressed are my own, and reflect that of private thought. * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52772">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52772" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need a off-the-shelf method of transmitting small amounts of data up to 300 feet. the data is low speed and can be encoded as needed. low power on the transmitting end would be a plus. an fcc certified product would be prefered. if you have any pointers to products or companies i'd appreciate hearing from 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52773">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52773" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've been wanting to build a tesla coil for quite awhile now ( who doesn't, right? ) and i thought it would be a good intermidiate step to build a jacob's ladder first. well, i have been looking for a high voltage transformer that is reasonable inexpensive ( neon sign transformers cost mucho ). in the past i've managed to buy used neon sign transformers from sign shops for about $20. try calling around. warren n. massey massey@travis.llnl.gov lawrence livermore national laboratory 7000 east ave., p.o. box 808, l-495 livermore, calif. 94550 <<<my opinions are mine alone>>> (510)422-1958 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52775">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52775" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : >similarly, people usually use db for dbm. another common mistake is spelling : >``db'' instead of ``db'' as you did in your article. see the ``b'' is for : >``bell'' company, the mother of at&t and should be capitalized. : thus, a decibell (deci-, l., tenth of + bell) is a fractional part of the : original bell. for example, southwestern bell is a decibell. out of what hat did you pull this one? db is a ratio not an rboc! : and the measure of current, amp, is actually named after both the amp company : and the amphenol company. both companies revolutionized electronics by : simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets : were affected by the amount of current running through the wires. sorry. the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french-man named ampere who studied electrical current. the term amp is just an abbreviation of it. the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use. : the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, thus : our use of the ohms... i don't know about this one, but it doesn't sound right. : alexander graham bell, actually, is where bell came from... well you got one thing right! : actually, bel refers : > with highest regards, : > babak sehari. : joseph chiu | josephc@cco.caltech.edu "os/2: you gotta get this thing!" : msc 380 - caltech | : pasadena, ca 91126 | os/2: the operating system of tomorrow, today. : +1 818 449 5457 | greg moffatt bell-northern research inc., ottawa canada "my opinions; not bnr's" 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52776">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52776" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> |> question 2: |> |> if i am right about the doppler(if i spell it different every time, |> |> maybe one will be right) effect, how does the radar get an accurate reading |> |> when the car containing it is moving?? it would seem to me ( for all thats |> |> worth) that it would need to be calibrated with the speedometer of the car |> |> containing it?? i am fairly sure this isn't the case, so whats the deal?? |> essentially, this is actually how it is done. the radar gun is tied into |> the speedometer of the car. no, it is independent of the speedometer. the gun processes two doppler returns--the speed of the car relative to the pavement and the speed of the target, taking the difference between the two. some guns with a "moving mode" actually have a split beam with one beam aimed preferentially at the pavement. car and driver had a good article on traffic radar, but it was back in 1985. i used its contents and references to defend myself against a bogus radar-measured ticket. it detailed "moving mode," which is easier to defend against because of the increased amount of variables. dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52779">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52779" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> |> the 'beam' is split in two, with one beam aimed at the target car (sort of) and |> |> the other at the ground. the speeds of each are calulated for the final |> |> number |> actually, this is true on the more expensive ones, but the cheaper ones |> just read the speedometer. i've never seen a speedometer-reading model. are you sure? who makes them? consider the difficulty of reading the speedo on various makes of cars in use... i've seen single beam moving-mode and split beam moving-mode. dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52780">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52780" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> >the crt, in fact, does have an intentional built-in capacitor for |> >its function just as ic's have built-in transistors, etc. |> gee, mr. myers, are we going to let this go without a correction? two things: 1. read your own posts. i was agreeing with bob. no correction 2. don't quote stuff out of context. dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52781">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52781" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 }out of what hat did you pull this one? db is a ratio not an rboc! }sorry. the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french-man }named ampere who studied electrical current. the term amp is just an abbreviation }of it. the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use. }i don't know about this one, but it doesn't sound right. }well you got one thing right! hello? john? oh, nevermind... jeffrey s. curtis sidewinder@uiuc.edu | "resplendent in full regalia, they the power of 37 free2207 at uiucvmd | revel in their role as self-appointed sony - phase linear - sanyo - sennet | critics of the establishment..." jensen - polk - streetwires - proton | -- inxs _welcome to wherever you are_ 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52782">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52782" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 permit me to quote fragments of praetzel@sunee.uwaterloo.ca's article out of context. -newsgroups: sci.electronics,comp.lsi.cad -from: praetzel@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (eric praetzel) -date: 10 feb 93 15:46:41 gmt - currently the xnf format is propierty and i know of at least on person at -a university who was able to get it after signing a non-disclosure agreement. -the xilinx-bit map format is pretty well top secret. i would love to know it -because then you could make self_modifying_hardware ;-) as it is i had to -reverse eng. the xilinx tools to dump the bit map to the fpga because it only -runs on the computer with the hardware key. self-modifying hardware could be *very* interesting -- computers that could write thier own programs (assemblers, compilers) were an immense breakthrough from calculators that couldn't. - i eagerly await a programmable gate array which uses a pd format and does -not cost your first born to program. till then we will keep on reverse -engineering whatever we can. as it is one company that i worked at has gone -under. fpgas are what they needed to make their product competitive. they -could not afford them. in the end you could say that they could not afford -to not use them but the management discovered that too late. - - eric my condolences. i can't even imagine what i could do with self-modifing hardware. i *can* imagine self-modifying software, and even though *all* my teachers say that's bad, even worse than goto, check out what the experts *used* to say about self-modifying code: (he uses "orders" rather than "opcodes") "on the principles of large scale computing machines" by goldstine and von neumann, collected in _john von neumann: collected works, vol. v_ reprinted here with absolutely no permission from anyone. "we plan... to have a full size (40 binary digit) word hold either contain 1 full size number (... equivalent to 12 decimal digits, but we will use the first binary digit to denote the sign) or two (20 binary digit) orders. it should be added that this technique of automatic substitutions into orders, i.e. the machine's ability to modify its own orders (under the control of other ones among its orders) is absolutely necessary for a flexible code. thus, if part of the memory is used as a "function table", then "looking up" a value of that function for a value of the variable which is obtained in the course of the computation requires that the machine itself should modify, or rather make up, the reference to the memory in the order which controls this "looking up", and the machine can only make this modification after it has already calculated the value of the variable in question. on the other hand, this ability of the machine to modify its own orders is one of the things which makes coding the non-trivial operation which we have to view it as." david cary, tenor, e- and comp. engineering (finger caryd@a.cs.okstate.edu). 227 s. 163 e. ave, tulsa, ok 74108-3310, usa, sol 3, universe v. 1.2 david cary, tenor, e- and comp. engineering (finger caryd@a.cs.okstate.edu). 227 s. 163 e. ave, tulsa, ok 74108-3310, usa, sol 3, universe v. 1.2 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52783">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52783" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, thus our use of the ohms... yeah, right. and the company was started by george simon ohmite. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52786">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52786" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've just built a valve preamp and use a diode/capacitor voltage multiplier to step the 12vac supply voltage up to approx 260vdv. as the load resistance increases, the rc constant decreases and hence the output voltage drops. i need as high an output voltage as possible. (about 260v). the circuit consists of seven voltage multiplier stages (ie 14 diodes and 14 capacitors) each capacitor develops about 38v across them, and i take the output from across seven capacitors=260v. each capacitor is 100mfd at 68v. if i increase each of the capacitors rating (220-470mfd), that will increase the rc constant, and hence alleviate some of the problem. these capacitors are going to be a little expensive as i need 14 of them, so: 1. what would happen if i connected a 470mfd at 400v capacitor in parallel with the output (and hence in parallel with the seven 100mfd capacitors)? will it, as i assume, increase the c in circuit and hence increase the rc time constant? if it does, and my output voltage becomes more stable by doing this, then i will have killed two birds with one stone... as i am experiencing some 50hz ripple (and hence amp hum), and this new capacitor will 'smooth' this out. 2. can anyone recomend a suitable value for an inductor (choke) to be placed in the output line of the power supply to filter out the 50hz mains hum. lowest resistance possible ! i've not got my preamp with me at the moment because it is too much of a distraction.... (i'm at university and i've got to get my dissertation finished in two weeks !!!!!!!) hence i'm mailing not playing with my solderoing iron (it'll be cheaper too in the long run... especially if 14 new large capacitors don't work as planned!) email please.... can't always read the net..... thanks in advance.. chris ;-) |name : mr chris smith | twang on that 'ole guitar ! | |addrs: scst83@uk.ac.liv.csc | | |uni : liverpool university |quest: to build more and more hardware | |dgree: computer science | | "what ever the sun may be, it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas!" -- d.h. lawrence. * all views expressed are my own, and reflect that of private thought. * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52788">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52788" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 power lines and airplanes don't mix. in areas where lines are strung very high, or where a lot of crop dusting takes place, or where there is danger of airplanes flying into the lines, they place these plastic balls on the lines so they are easier to spot. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52789">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52789" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i got a question from my dad which i really can't answer and i'd appreciate some net.wisdom. his question is about some 18-24" diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area. he's seen up to a half dozen between two poles. neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution. my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid, but why so many between two poles?. anyone know what they really are? is there a related faq for this? is there a better group to submit to? we'd both appreciate some enlightenment. the balls are used to reduce the amplitude of oscillations of the wire during periods of high winds. i've seen what looks like paint cans filled with concrete used for the same purpose. mike behnke | senior tech/advisor | quid est illuidin aqua?? fermi nat accel lab | equipment suuport | batavia, il. | computing div | pistrix!! pistrix!! behnke@fnalf.fnal.gov | | my opinions are my own, not of the lab. so, if you don't like them, call 1-800-uwh-iner 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52790">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52790" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> >>can someone out there explain exactly what the 'trigger' |> >>feature found on oscilloscopes does? |> { lots og good explanation deleted} <lots more deleted> |> is it just me, or does anybody else out there not like digital |> scopes. my school has some beauutful 100mhz hp that are digital with |> all the bells and whistles, including soft-keys, which i think are a |> loveley touch. ( that is, software keys. ) you don't forget that you |> are dealing with a computer. those scopes even with all their |> neatness, still make the ickyest looking waves. lotsa features, but |> ugly output. and those are the best digitals i have ever seen. i've |> seen a lot of cheaper digitals and they look terrible. i think the hangup with digital scopes is that you have to know so much more about them and how they work on a scope-by-scope basis, and some of the functions are typically presented, in my opinion, in a counter-intuitive fashion (hp has made some strides in their 54600 series, imo). automatic setups are fine for simple, repetitive waveforms, but can give you some crazy results on more complex events where you need to understand how the scope is actually measuring/processing the event. for example, is the scope in "equivalent time" or in "real time" sampling mode (equivalent time being a mode where samples are built-up slowly by adding a delay to the trigger event each sweep)? what was the scope's actual sampling rate at the time? how is the data being massaged after capture but before display, etc. one common misconception is the speed of the scope. is the hp scope you're using really a 100 mhz scope? or is it a 20 mhz sample rate scope (~5 mhz single shot significance) whose front end including s/h can support 100 mhz waveforms (important for equivalent time sampling)? the 100 mhz input in this case really only helps you when your waveform is repetitive, or on a single sample, when you get lucky and hit a transient event during a sample time. so, there are a lot more variables in understanding how to get useful information from a digital scope. i prefer an analog scope for general use and the digital for events where i need storage for later analysis or comparison, when the event is within the capability of the scope. now, for the price of true 100 mhz digital scopes to fall... dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52791">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52791" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 this is for a friend of mine. please send answers directly to him (e-mail adress see below )! highspeed analog-digital pc-board hello ladies and gentleman ! i am looking for a highspeed a/d pc-board with a sampling rate above 250 mhz an a resolution of 8-bit. the sampling rate can be arranged by an interleave mode where the time equivalent sampling yields 2, 4 or 8 times higher sampling rate than the a/d-converter uses in non interleave mode. the board must content an a/d-converter similar to analog devices ad 9028 or ad 9038 or if available a faster on. if you a pc-board (16-bit slot, isa) with this specification or better, please send me an email hansch@cdc2.ikph.uni-hannover.dbp.de or a telefax to: ++49 / 511 / 7629353 thanks in advance for your help ! matthias hansch ikph, university of hannover, germany andreas heinbokel heinboke@tnt.uni-hannover.de *** ... all wisdom is print on t-shirts *** 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52792">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52792" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : thus, a decibell (deci-, l., tenth of + bell) is a fractional part of the : original bell. for example, southwestern bell is a decibell. out of what hat did you pull this one? db is a ratio not an rboc! : and the measure of current, amp, is actually named after both the amp company : and the amphenol company. both companies revolutionized electronics by : simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets : were affected by the amount of current running through the wires. sorry. the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french-man named ampere who studied electrical current. the term amp is just an abbreviation of it. the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use. : the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, : thus our use of the ohms... i don't know about this one, but it doesn't sound right. : alexander graham bell, actually, is where bell came from... well you got one thing right! actually, i think j. chiu knows the score and is just being silly. however, "decibel" is in fact 1/10th of a bel. he is right on that one, but i don't know if it was accidental or not. strictly defined, a bel is the ratio of the log of two power levels, and a decibel is 1/10th of a bel so you have 10x decibels for every bel, hence bel=log(p2/p1) and decibel=10xlog(p2/p1). the bel, ohm, volt, farad, ampere, watt, hertz, henry, etc. are all named for pioneers in the field. it's a traditional and fine way to honor researchers who discover new knowledge in a new field. hertz was one of the most important of the early electronics explorers, but had been left out in having a term or unit named after him until recently, (1960's, prior to that what is now a hertz was a cps.) all the other units were defined many decades earlier. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52795">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52795" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 telephone systems have the capability of a passband of 30hz to 4khz. the reason they do not implement this is: it is not backward compatable to every telephone system. in addition, the most effecent mix of electrical effecency, and intelegability closly mateches a 300hz-3khz close, but no banana (to paraphrase garfield)... the reason 300-3300 hz is used is that voice channels used to occupy 4khz bands when multiplexed on a trunk line. therefore, 300hz at the bottom, and 700hz at the top of this band were filtered to minimise interference with the next band. nowadays, digital trunks have made this less relevant, but the phone companies still see no reason to improve quality (especially for free!). therefore, digital "chunk of a trunk" segments still have a guaranteed bandwidth of only 4khz (so they can carry the equivalent of one analog line) at the clock rate of a standard pcm t1 or e1 digital trunk. it's all historical... here in the uk, the bandwidth restriction apparently only apply to local lines.. ie those used by the average domestic client. private lines which are run from the local exchange to the leasing client are usually capable of a higher bandwidth if the exchange is digital. don't quote me on that..... but i think i remember a bt engineer saying something to that effect when i was doing some work shadowing a few years ago. byeeeee ! chris ;-) |name : mr chris smith | twang on that 'ole guitar ! | |addrs: scst83@uk.ac.liv.csc | | |uni : liverpool university |quest: to build more and more hardware | |dgree: computer science | | "what ever the sun may be, it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas!" -- d.h. lawrence. * all views expressed are my own, and reflect that of private thought. * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52797">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52797" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking to build a dsp for guitar processing. hence lots of background information would be really useful ! if anyone's got any info, could they email..... well, i'm not sure i'd use this to process a guitar but there was a audio filter dsp construction article in the sept 92 issue of qst magazine (ham radio oriented). the dsp is available in kit form for about $120. this particular dsp filter was targetted toward processing audio to remove noise (static). i built it and it really works well. the source code is available too. it makes a noisy audio signal much easier to hear. note that this is for communication applications and is not "high fidelity". mike linnig, texas instruments inc. | 97.43% of all statistics are made | phone: (214) 575-3597 call: n5qaw | up; most of them (83.6 percent) | internet: mike.linnig@dseg.ti.com | are wrong. | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52799">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52799" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> |> |> the 'beam' is split in two, with one beam aimed at the target car (sort of) and |> |> |> the other at the ground. the speeds of each are calulated for the final |> |> |> number |> |> actually, this is true on the more expensive ones, but the cheaper ones |> |> just read the speedometer. |> i've never seen a speedometer-reading model. are you sure? who makes |> them? consider the difficulty of reading the speedo on various makes |> of cars in use... i've seen single beam moving-mode and split beam |> moving-mode. obviously the police officer reads the speedometer. i cannot believe the nit-picking in this group. there's 2 beams, there is not, is too, etc.... |> [dave medin's 10 line sig deleted] 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52800">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52800" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 it used to be that the only way the law could be enforced was for an officer to actually see the radar detector. not any more! many law enforcement agencies are now using radar detector detectors. right, a super sensitive receiver that is capable of picking up rf from the radar detector itself. my first reaction was "no way!" but, guess again, these little buggers really work and the police are writing citations right and left for people using radar detectors. one news story quoted an officer as saying that he had found the radar detector in all of the cars he stopped except one, and he could never figure out where it was - but he knew it was there. this tends to make one assume there are few false arrest. from what i understand about radar dectectors all they are is a passive device much like the radio in your car. they work as an antenna picking up that radar signals that the radar gun sends out. therefore there would be no way of detecting a radar detector any more than there would be of detecting whether some one had a radio in their car. neal howland nhowland@matt.ksu.ksu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52801">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52801" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i might add that collecting last year's data books (or even ones two years out |> of date) is usually pretty cheap, and has benefits besides: you usually don't |> want to base a design on a brand-new chip. there may be bugs; availability may |> be limited; the data sheets may be missing critical information that will show |> up in the ap notes in next year's data books. kinda like buying version 1.0 of |> a major new software package: sometimes you get lucky, but don't count on it. there are two more reasons to save old databooks and then beyond two years--obsoleted parts and better application notes and tutorials. when a part is dropped from future production planning, such as the national mm-series white noise generators, camera sync generators, etc., it will disappear from current databooks although it still may be produced for a short time (or be available from stock somewhere). now, if you have some old plans calling for such a device, or you have a dead gadget on your workbench and it has such a part in it, you'll know the functions so you can troubleshoot and substitute as necessary. the old ge thyristor data books contain real good tutorials on scr and triac applications that are not found elsewhere, for |> > in summary, read. read! ****read!!!**** that's how you'll know what to |> > design in, which parts to use, and how to solve the intractable problem |> > that your boss has presented you with. |> it helps to have a prodigous memory for details... here, here!... dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52804">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52804" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need information on microstrip circuit design especially filter design for the 1-3ghz range. can you recommend any good books, journals, or microstrip circuit design software. all help appreciated gerry corley, ece department, univesity of limerick, ireland. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52807">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52807" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm interested in buying or building an omnidirectional antenna for the commercial fm band (88-108mhz). the commonly sold ones are a folded dipole bent in an "s" shape; and one with a pair of crossed dipoles. i don't see either of these designs as exhibiting any gain, and they probably aren't truely omnidirectional. i'm intrigued by the discone antenna. does anyone have detailed information on how to design one for the fm band (with 75-ohm impedence)?? is one commercially available?? are there other designs that have gain?? i already own a 10-element fm yagi. it works great, but requires frequent rotation for those distant stations. brad beer, 4414 castle gate drive, beavercreek, oh 45432-1814 for an antenna, gain is synonymous with directionality. the only way to get gain (>1) out of an antenna is to design in directionality. the "gain" of an antenna is defined as the signal increase (for a preferred direction) over the signal obtained by an isotropic antenna. bob sciamanda edinboro univ of pa 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52808">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52808" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a project that was drooped in my lap that is somewhat a pain to design. what i am looking for is a stable ultra-long solid state timer. what they want to do is to place this thing on the antartic ice shelf and measure the amount of snow fall over a period of six weeks. every two weeks, they want to trip a selonoid to discharge different colored pellets by gas pressure out across the snow. then by digging down into the snow, the snow fall amount can be measured as they come to the different color pellets. the problem is trying to build a timer that would stand the cold (-40 degrees) and a power source that wouldn't drain. i have looked at the xr-2204 timers and the standard ne556 dual timers, but thier temp specs won't go that low. also, two weeks equates to 1,209,600 seconds per firing, which means one big timing cap ! i have found 2.2 farad (yes, farad !) caps that have a working voltage of 5 volts and are small in size. but again, the time of discharge at -40 or lower degrees isn't linear. i was thinking of using several timers chained together to fire the selonid at the end of the timing period, but that blasted cold and the drain on a battery over six weeks is the pain. one possibility would be to use solar panels, but this is during the six month twilight. anyone have any good ideas ? thanks in advance... -=-= wes =-=- just a suggestion: take a motorola mc14536b set it up to give you a pulse once every sec or ten secs with either a rc or xtal clock input. then feed to a mc14521b as clock input and decode output for 1,209,600 sec output ,might have to add a few 'and' gates or decoder chips to get output and reset pulse back to the'521 to restart cycle... trigger a oneshot from the decoded riseing edge ;the one shot then goes to a mosfet to drive the mechanism to fire the pellet launcher.. these ckts require uamps of current,between 5 - 15 volts, so a 12 volt gel cell of a few amphours would last the six weeks. then take the ckt board & battery wrap in 3" or 4" of foam or build a box of out of the stuff...with plywood or metal exterior... build a small heater out of 10-50 watt resistors in series to keep the battery and ckts warm. 2nd thought use 2 batteries one for heater one for timer and pellet trigger. insolate-insolate.......even though the chips state that the - al rated devices are good to -55 c.. the batteries have a considerable reduction in capacity...oh make sure the area inside has minium air leakage.. hope this helps rw ( is this to long winded for the net??)(be gentle)... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52809">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52809" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i think there is a huge difference in the materials and process for printer/toner pcb's. i get first time, everytime results from a local hp postscript, and hardly ever works from copies of the same artwork. the printer results are so good that i have quit even looking for pc board processes. if i had to use the copier version, i would think i would look elsewhere. the moral? experiment and find what works. toner transfer can give excellent results. it, like any process, gives erratic results with variable inputs. r.g. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52813">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52813" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was having a look through a couple of components catalogues when i came across a range of peltier effect heat pumps intended for cooling components. for those who have not heard of this effect, you put a current through one of these devices, and it pumps heat from one side to the other. reverse the current and you reverse the effect. i think a temperature difference can give you an emf as well. anyway, it struck me that you could make a nice cool/hot box for picnics with one of these, a power regulator, a thermostat and a couple of heat sinks. the biggest device can shift 60w with an efficiency of 80-90%, which ain't bad (although it would flatten my car battery in about half an hour). so-called cool-hot boxes have been advetised for several years. i recall damark advertising them in a recent catalog. problem with the units is they do a sh***y job of keeping food cold/warm. the peliter devices used just don't seem to have enough punch to keep up. if you want something hot, you need to heat it up before you put it in the box, and end up hours later with food thats only moderately warm. same goes for cold items. unfortunately the catalogue didn't list anything more than the basic specs as a heat pump. i imagine that you would get a back-emf as the temperature gradient across the device increases. if so, presumably its power decreases as the back-emf increases, until eventually we have a steady state with no current being consumed (assuming no leakage). if so, then the final temperature difference between the two sides could be set by the supply voltage and nothing more (although that would be a lousy way to control it). what i would like to know is: 1: are the above guesses correct? 2: what is the open-circuit thermal resistance of a typical device? (i just want to be sure that my coolbox is not going to get warm too fast when i unplug it) you'de probably be better off getting a good coleman(tm) cooler and stocking up on "blue ice" blocks. 3: how does a peltier effect heat pump actually work? it looks like magic! 4: why don't they use these things in domestic fridges/freezers? same as above. not enough "punch" in them to keep/get things cold/hot. thanks in advance, paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions mike behnke | senior tech/advisor | quid est illuidin aqua?? fermi nat accel lab | equipment suuport | batavia, il. | computing div | pistrix!! pistrix!! behnke@fnalf.fnal.gov | | my opinions are my own, not of the lab. so, if you don't like them, call 1-800-uwh-iner 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52815">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52815" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking at buying a low cost (< $500) scope for general purpose use. any recommendations? is this info in a faq somewhere? any pointers appreciated. * gerard talatinian | * * network systems | gtalatin@ucs.indiana.edu * * university computing services | fax: (812) 855-8299 * * indiana university | voice: (812) 855-0962 * 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52817">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52817" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi all, i've been following this thread about jacob's ladder for a few weeks and i happened to come across one of the best project books that i've seen in a while. the book "gadgeteer's goldmine" by gordon mccomb offers over 55 excellent low cost projects including: jacob's ladder, tesla coils, plasma spheres, a van de graaff generator, robots, an ir scope, and several laser projects. the instructions come with complete part lists, warnings and diagrams. for those of you who are interested in building any of the above listed projects, you should seriously consider getting this book. the paperback version is only $19.95 too. for those who want more information: title: gadgeteer's goldmine! 55 space-age projects auth: gordon mccomb pub: tab books cw: 1990 isbn: 0-8306-8360-7 0-8306-3360-x (paperback) price: $19.95 (paperback) | scott a. bailey | #include "std_disclaimer.h" | | ecl operator |------------------------------------------------| | computer engineering | i'm just a knight who chases the moon... | | university of rhode island | haven't caught it yet,but i haven't let that | | bailey@vader.egr.uri.edu | keep me from still trying each day and night | | bailey@ecl1.uri.edu | --(---------- ----------)-- | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52819">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52819" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the father of a friend of mine is a police officer in west virginia. not only is his word as a skilled observer good in court, but his skill as an observer has been tested to be more accurate than the radar gun in some cases . . .. no foolin! he can guess a car's speed to within 2-3mph just by watching it blow by - whether he's standing still or moving too! (yes, 1) how was this testing done, and how many times? (calibrated speedometer?) 2) it's not the "some cases" that worry me, it's the "other cases" :-) (eg: suboptimal viewing conditions; even the best subjective viewer can only partial compensate for certain distortions and optical illusions). 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52821">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52821" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a hp 1740 scope that (i think) has a problem in the hv section. symptom: started turning on and off on its own, making intermittant bright flashes on the crt, and then finally, passed away. if you have a manual (or any suggestions), please send me mail. will gladly pay reproduction/shipping costs plus a little $ for your efforts for the manual. thanks in advance. --- jeff jeff depolo wn3a twisted pair: (215) 337-7383h 387-3059w depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu rf: 443.800+ mhz 442.700+ mhz 24.150 ghz university of pennsylvania 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52822">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52822" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, thus : our use of the ohms... i don't know about this one, but it doesn't sound right. damn right it doesn't! ohm's come from the greek letter omega, which is used for resistance/impedance. of course, the original poster may have been being facetious (let's hope so). mark neidengard mneideng@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52825">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52825" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i got a question from my dad which i really can't answer and i'd appreciate some net.wisdom. his question is about some 18-24" diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area. he's seen up to a half dozen between two poles. neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution. my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid, but why so many between two poles?. i'll bet there's a runway nearby. jeff babb babb@sciences.sdsu.edu babb@ucssun1.sdsu.edu programmer, sdsu - larc 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52826">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52826" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if you're thinking of reactive polymers they're making esd safe contauiners out of it. as far as being conductive goes anything with a resistance less than 10 to the fouthrth power ohms per cubic measure is classed as conductive per mil-std-1686 for esd protection. my $0.02 ($0.016 us). 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52827">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52827" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i tried to e-mail you, but the message bounced. motorola has a university support program through which (i've been told) folks at schools can get sample quantities of parts. if you'd like to try this route, e-mail me for the address/phone #...i don't wish to post it for all the world to see. dick young motorola, inc. (who doesn't have a thing to do with my opinions: they're my own fault.) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52828">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52828" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 from what i understand about radar dectectors all they are is a passive device much like the radio in your car. they work as an antenna picking up that radar signals that the radar gun sends out. therefore there would be no way of detecting a radar detector any more than there would be of detecting whether some one had a radio in their car. from my rather rusty knowledge of radio, most radio receivers use a superhet circuit, so that the incoming signal is mixed with a local oscillator, giving a fixed intermediate frequency (if) that is more easily amplified. the detector detectors work by picking up if re-radiated from your radar detector. in britain, where one has/used to pay for a tv licence, there are/were tv detector vans prowling the streets, looking for people who hadn't paid their licence fee. they had a couple of long solenoid antennae on the roof, and i believe could triangulate an operating tv from the if. i wonder how much of the if is radiated back from the detector antenna, and how much from the rest of the module. it might be worth putting the detector in a proper rf shielded enclosure. andrew daviel, vancouver, canada <advax@triumf.ca> finger advax@reg.triumf.ca for pgp key 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52829">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52829" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i just heard an unbelievable rumor that motorola has decided to drop their |> integrated circuit manufacture business. apparently a digikey rep called |> one of our production coordinators, for out information so that we could |> make plans to deal with this, that moto was getting out. anybody else |> get a call about this? |> too much for me. it's about like intel announcing they were getting out |> of the ic business. this rumor didn't happen to appear on april 1st? if this digikey rep was serious, i think i will buy my parts elsewhere. if that is the way they do business, you cannot trust them. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics52830">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52830" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 do you know if there is an airport nearby? they may just be markers to tell pilots of small planes that there are power lines nearby. /joe 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics52831">
<answer instance="sci.electronics52831" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 here's a question for all you electrical engineers out there: i bought an 'infrared detector module' at radio shack for $3.95 - it is a little gizmo that senses infrared remotes and produces an output signal. then i hooked the output through a transistor to an infrared led. the circuit works like a minature remote control extender in my car - all remote commands are relayed to the cd player hidden in the glove compartment. it works fine with my denon cd player, but when i tried to build the same circuit for a friend's vcr, it didn't work. the circuit appears to work for other remotes (you can see infrared with a sony ccd camcorder) but coincidentally it only seems to work for my cd player... any advice would be appreciated.... ubsiler @ msuvx1.memst.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53505">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53505" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just got an ibm-pc xt with no documents. its a true ibm, and i was wondering if anyone had the definitions of the 2 8 position dip switches? - thankx jim 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53506">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53506" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 as for adcoms mobil, they are going with amps that canb use balanced inputs, a very nice toy, but i'm afraid its goig to push their amps beyound resonable price ranges. especialy because taking advantage of those balanced inputs requires a $120+ rca to balanced adapter... umm, when i was doing sound reinforcement for a living, i used to get direct boxes (which convert unbalanced 1/4" jacks to balanced xlrs) for about $25 each, or a little more for higher quality. you'll need two for a stereo signal, of course, and a little adapter thingy from radio sh#$&^t to convert from rca to 1/4". total cost should be around $50. you can also buy transformers for quite a bit less and wire them yourself. total cost there should be under $30. you can get all this stuff from any pro music shop that sells sound reinforcement gear. the benefit? no noise that you can hear will be generated in the cables going to the component with the balanced inputs, even when you run them in bad places, like next to power lines. john bell nasa langley research center bell@hops.larc.nasa.gov 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53507">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53507" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 : >> in article <1ptolq$p7e@werple.apana.org.au> petert@zikzak.apana.org.au (peter : >> >just a thought of mine here: : >> >since an on-hook line is aprox 48-50v, and off-hook it usually drops below 1 : >> >how about an led in series with a zener say around 30v. : >> >on-hook = led on : >> >off-hook = led off. : >> >would this work? if anyone tries/tried it, please let me know. : >> aye, there's the rub -- if you draw enough current to light an led, the : >> equipment at the phone company will think you've gone off hook. : >> in the on-hook state you're not supposed to draw current. : >which means you should just use your digital voltmeter. you can use an : >old vom but the phone company equipment can detect that and might think : >there's something wrong with the cable. : look guys, what's the problem here? if you want a light that goes on when : the 'phone is *off* hook, all you need it to run it in *series* with the : line, as i mentioned in my previous post. if you want a light that goes on : when the 'phone is *on* hook, all you need is a voltage threshold detector. if you're going to do the series diode thing (which is the easiest), just make sure that the led can take the current (i can't recall it off-hand, but it's something like 100ma or more?) greg moffatt moffatt@bnr.ca bell-northern resarch inc., ottawa canada "my opinions; not bnr's" 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53510">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53510" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 here in the dallas area i have noticed that it is quite common to see an odd "sensor" on top of traffic lights. these have been here for at least six years. i've often wondered what they are. mike linnig, texas instruments inc. | 97.43% of all statistics are made | here in erie, pa there is a system in the inner city called rado-lite (a trade name) which allows police and ambulance vehicles to gain right of way by controlling traffic lights through radio signals. the receivers look much like what you describe, but they include a uhf whip antenna (less than a foot tall) and a light which flashes on and off to let traffic know that an emergency vehicle has taken control and is approaching. local folklore says this system was invented here; i don't know if this company has any other installations. it has been in operation for at least 30 years, going only by my memory. bob sciamanda edinboro univ of pa 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53512">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53512" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 this is not a new idea. at least 10 years ago i got this little gadget with a keyboard on the back and 8 led's in a vertical row on the front. it has a long handle and when you wave it in the air it "writes" the message you typed on the keyboard in the air. this is not news. in fact it's where i got the idea from, since it was such a neat item. mattell made it, i believe, modeled after a "space saber" or "light sword" or something likewise theme-y. my addition was using a motor for continuous display, and polar effects in addition to character graphics. i should have protected it when i had the chance. no one to kick but myself... ten years ago is about right, since i built mine in '84 or '85. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53513">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53513" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 just a shot here, but ya never know: i once bought a (real) cheap equalizer / power amp for my car tape player at one of those motel-room truckload sales, and it sounded great. for a while, that is. then one channel quit entirely. i opened it up, and the amplifier chip for the bad channel had simply melted some of its solder joints attaching it to the pcb. i soldered them back and it worked fine. i just had to keep the volume a bit lower than i did before. probably lousy heat sinking. you said "a nice alpine" which i'm sure is a few orders of mag higher in quality than the p.o.s. i had. but the point is - look inside before you scrap it, since you occasionally find something you can repair. maybe even the same thing i found. good luck! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53515">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53515" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i had a ge emerson 13" color tv for about 3 years and one fine day, while we were watching something (i doubt if the program was the cause), we heard a mild explosion. our screen went blank but there was sound, so we thought, 'oh we have special effects on the program'. but soon the sound stopped and smoke started to appear at the back of the tv. the brilliant ees we are, we unplugged the tv and called customer service only to be thrown around by please hold, i will transfer u to blah blah.. finally we abandoned the idea of trying to fix the tv and got a new one (we wanted a bigger one too!). after all the story, what i wanted to know is: is my problem an isolated incident or a common one? (i recall reading about russian tvs exploding, but not here, in the us). why would the picture tube explode or even smoke? i still have the left over tv set, i might dig into it this summer. any idea where i can get parts for these things? (probably will cost more than tv). w/my 0.02 prasadr@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53517">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53517" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 1. can low voltage lights be controlled with an x10 module by putting it before the transformer? it seems to work, even the dimmer works. not very reliable. will it damage the module? can it be done reliably? 2. i put a motion switch (heath) to a low voltage light, it worked but now it is broken, too much current? how can i get arround that? 3. how can i increase the intensity of a light using the x10 pc computer interface without having it go 100% on first and then down. i am doing my own programing, not the x10 program. thanks c. montenegro 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53519">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53519" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 |> > i was wondering if people had any good uses for old |> >256k simms. i have a bunch of them for the apple mac |> >and i know lots of other people do to. i have tried to |> >sell them but have gotten no interest. we use them as christmas tree decorations, the cat doesn't eat these. ...wex 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53520">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53520" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i suggest that misc.consumer.house is a better forum for this, several electricians, a huge faq that adresses all the issues raised here. ...wex 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53522">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53522" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 instead of using a +15vdc supply for the 4066 try using a +7 and -7 volt supply. i have some commercial audio equipment that uses this approach for ground referenced audio. they use the -7 volt supply as the logic in this case would the switch control voltages be -7v to turn the switch off and >0v to turn the switch on? michael fulbright msf@as.arizona.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53524">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53524" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 what happens when dvc (digital videon compression) is introduced next year and instead of just receiving squiggly lines on 2 or 3 channels we'll be receiving sqigglies on, let's see 3*10 = 30 channels eventually. since the digital transmission schemes include error correction and concealment, the performance remains about the same down to a very low carrier-to-noise ratio, below which it degrades very quickly. hence, digitally compressed tv is supposed to be less susceptible to interference than amplitude modulated tv. bill mcfadden tektronix, inc. p.o. box 500 ms 58-639 beaverton, or 97077 bill@tv.tv.tek.com, ...!tektronix!tv.tv.tek.com!bill phone: (503) 627-6920 how can i prove i am not crazy to people who are? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53526">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53526" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i had the insturment panel go out in my car (a 1990 lincoln contenintal) which is a digital dash. they replaced the whole thing with a 1991 dash (thank god it was under the warrenty ! :-) anyway, the odometer was reading the exact milage from the old panel. it must have a eeprom of some sort in it that is up-dated. seems to me that removing the battery would erase it, but it doesn't. so i guess they swapped the nvm chip (non-volitile memory) and installed it in the new dash. no, they wouldn't let me have the old dash to tinker with :-( -=-= wes =-=- 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53529">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53529" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was wondering if people had any good uses for old 256k simms. i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to. i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest. so, if you have an inovative use (or want to buy some simms 8-) ), i would be very interested in hearing about it. one of the guys at work takes 20 of them, uses cyano-acrylate glue to make five four-wide "panels" then constructs a box, with bottom, to use as a pencil holder. or, if you've got some entreprenuerial (sp?) spirit, get a cheapy clear plastic box, mount the simm inside, and sell it as a 'pet simm'! i'm sure there are *plenty* of suckers out there who would go for it! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53530">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53530" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the |> 12/2 with ground, and that on these circuits, the ground |> wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral (white) wire. this is contrary to the electrical code and should be fixed. sorry, but this is exactly according to the nec. no need to be sorry, i blew it on this one. at the main breaker box where there is a thick wire ground leading to the earth, both neutral and ground are hooked to this bus. in any other breaker box (or an outlet box, etc.) the ground and neutral must not be connected together. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53531">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53531" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 initial symptoms: -no picture or sound -crt filament does not glow -flyback ticking as described abovew discovered when hooked up the scope: -if strip is not putting out audio or video signals -everything is making simple 20-30 hz pulses -horiz out transistor collector (case of the to-3) is a 20-30 hz downgoing sawtooth with ca. 15khz ring at front end guys, what"s going on here? anyone seen this before? what is happening is this: 1) you turn the tv on. 2) the horizontal output begins normal operation. this powers up the high voltage and most of the rest of the circuitry. 3) a problem is sensed and the horizontal oscillator shuts down. 4) after it powers down the cycle repeats. things to check: first check for a shorted high power component. your best bet is the vertical output transistor(s) or, if there is one, the voltage regulator. the most common cause of this type of failure is too much current being drawn also look for shutdown circuits (which your tv may or may not have), if you can find one that is shutting down the horizontal oscillator then it shouldn't be too hard to find the problem from there. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53532">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53532" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 anyone know of any good supplier's of chips, one that could have almost any chip i need? i don't want to hunt down all the chips i may need so it would be greatly appreciated if anyone knows of a good distributor unfortunately, there are not too many retail outlets that'll stock just about every chip made. the stuff they will stock are the ones that'll sell, like standard dram's, 80386's, 68000's, etc,etc. i.e. i cna't think of any 'one-stop-shopping' store. the closest you can get is to pick up a copy of byte magazine or the circuit cellar, popular electronics, and the like and flip through them. distributors like wyle electronics, hamilton avnet, pioneer electronics, etc, etc, don't normally deal with end-users like ourselves where we only a couple of everything...they only deal with people who buy by the hundreds or more. each distributor represents and sells a variety of different non-competing manufacturers. what do i mean by this? suppose abc electronics sells intel 80386's. it's a pretty good bet that they won't be selling any of amd's 386's, or vice-versa. they also can obtain just about *any* chip you want from a manufacturer they represent. who knows? you might be lucky to be able to buy from one of them. but i'd be suprised if you do. also bear in mind that the 1 or 2 qty prices they will charge you will be *much* greater than what a mail order outlet will charge. my advice? if you're gonna be designing anything, try to stick with off-the-shelf stuff. you're going to get stuck if you use too many esoteric parts sooner or later. good luck, 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53537">
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 attention hardware hackers and bargain seekers! i just bought a 640x200 pixel lcd panel for 25 uk pounds. i have a datasheet for a similar panel, but i'm looking for proper data. if anyone can help with locating data for this device (before i start with the routine on the phone to hitachi and rummaging through the library), then i'll pass on the source. type: lm225 (hitachi) resolution: 640w x 200h (so can do 80x25 chars on 8x8 matrix) bought from: greenweld electronics ltd 27 park rd southampton so1 3tb, uk tel. +44 703 23 63 63 fax. +44 703 23 63 07 email: compuserve [100014,1463] nb: i only just bought this! i don't even know if it works! price was 25 uk pounds including vat (17.5%), which isn't payable if you're outside the ec. thanks for any info! chris hand, lecturer internet mail: cph@dmu.ac.uk dept of computing science, voice: +44 533 551551 x8476 de montfort university, the gateway, fax: +44 533 541891 fidonet: 2:440/32.50 leicester, uk le1 9bh >> linux: *free* unix for ibm pcs! << 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53538">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53538" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i talked to a friend who works for radio shack, and he said the deal with the red batteries were that they had too much lead in them. condidering the red batteries had a life cycle shorter than a mayflies, i think the epa was worried about all those batteries being dumped out. pardon me, but why would carbon-zinc cells have any lead in them at all. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53542">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53542" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the same folks now have out lbl (little big lan) for $75. i think you get it for $50 if you already own $25 network. lbl works with arcnet, parallel ports, and serial ports in any combination for up to 250 or so lbl now offers ethernet support also, although presently it is limited to ne1000/ne2000 style boards. lbl owners can get an update for $8.50. ray berry kb7ht ray@ole.cdac.com rjberry@eskimo.com 73407.3152@compuserve.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53544">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53544" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 we have a sun cd-rom drive which i would like to play audio cd's in. i have an old 10 watt amplifier which works fine when connected to a junk "walkman" style am/fm radio. this amp ties the common path of the earphone connection to ground. however, it doesn't work with my sony walkman cassette player, or the cd drive, it produces of loud low-frequency tone. obviously sony doesn't ground the earphone output common. does anyone have specs on the cd drive's output? will an audio transformer help? what are others using to play there cd's in the sun drive so that more than one can listen? thanks for the help. bill morrow clinical neurosciences, university of calgary e-mail: morrow@cns.ucalgary.ca voice: (403) 220-6275 fax: (403) 283-8770 3330 hospital drive nw calgary, alberta, canada t2n 4n1 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53545">
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 so, the questions are - what do the radar detector detectors actually detect? would additional shielding/grounding/bypassing shield stray rf generated by a radar detector, or is the rf actually being emitted by the detector are any brands "quieter" than others? ok, so your a ham. well, tune in 10.7mhz or 455khz. these numbers sound like some you have herd before? thats right, you guessed it, they are common if numbers. every super-het receiver has a local oscillator(s) which generates an if. this is what your detector detector is detecting (the local oscillator). some of these have two or more local oscillator which generate more ways to receiver you. if you want to receiver something at say 10.525ghz you must generate a local oscillator signal of 10.525ghz - 10.7mhz = your local osc frequency. this 10.7mhz if is then fed into a normal agc ckt. the detector is keyed uppon the agc voltage (your mileage may vary). since the agc is a negative feed back device, a positive voltage sets off a ... i think you get the picture. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53547">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53547" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've got two lines coming into my apartment. two different telephone numbers. when i ordered the second line installed, instead of bringing out another 4 wire bundle, the telco just connected up to my yellow and black wires. so i have one line on red & green and the other on yellow & black. today i was monitoring the voltage on both lines. i had a voltmeter across the red and green and read back 52 volts. i then lifted up the receiver on my second line.(black & yellow wires) the voltage dropped to 31 volts on the first line. (red & green wires) i repeated this experiment with the second line(monitoring black & yellow and lifting the handset off the cradle on the red and green line.) it also dropped to 31 volts. why is this ? i thought these were separate lines. next i went to the 66 block and disconnected the blue and white lines coming in from the telco cable. i then disconnected all the phones in my apartment and went back to the 66 block and did some resistance measurements. both lines read i'll appreciate any help on this. is this considered normal ? guy urbina urbina@novax.llnl.gov 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53550">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53550" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 anyone out there in netland have a spare data pod or two from an old 1615a hewlett packard logic analyzer? if you do, i'd like to buy it off of you. the pod's part number is 10248b. as a side note, anyone know of any good surplus dealer or other organization that would carry wayward logic analzer pods? thanks a byte, tod@cco.caltech.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53555">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53555" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : >> >just a thought of mine here: : >> >since an on-hook line is aprox 48-50v, and off-hook it usually drops below 1 : >> >how about an led in series with a zener say around 30v. : >> >on-hook = led on : >> >off-hook = led off. : >> >would this work? if anyone tries/tried it, please let me know. : >> aye, there's the rub -- if you draw enough current to light an led, the : >> equipment at the phone company will think you've gone off hook. : >> in the on-hook state you're not supposed to draw current. : >which means you should just use your digital voltmeter. you can use an : >old vom but the phone company equipment can detect that and might think : >there's something wrong with the cable. : look guys, what's the problem here? if you want a light that goes on when : the 'phone is *off* hook, all you need it to run it in *series* with the : line, as i mentioned in my previous post. if you want a light that goes on : when the 'phone is *on* hook, all you need is a voltage threshold detector. if you're going to do the series diode thing (which is the easiest), just make sure that the led can take the current (i can't recall it off-hand, but it's something like 100ma or more?) careful now folks... also consider the 90vac+ @20hz that is forced on ring and tip when the phone's supposed to ring! even with a simple zener and led setup, you might end up with some carbon real quick. whatever scheme you use, make sure you've got at least 200v-rated components on the frontend. also remember that, if i'm not mistaken, the phone line is a 600ohm equivalent circuit. any current you draw from the 48v or so gets dropped across that 600ohms. that's fine until you're down to roughly 12v, when ma bell considers it to be off-hook. but dropping it that far down is probably a big no-no. the easiest implementation to accomplish the above?? tip ------->|-----\/\/\/\-----+----------+ rectifier resistor | | diode | \ v / zener /---/ \ resistor | v led ring --------------------------+----------+ this is only a suggestion...go ahead and blow holes in it, but you get the idea. choose a high-efficiency led so you don't need much current to get it to light up. choose values for the other components as required. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53556">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53556" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm no expert at ups's, but you said something that made it sound like you didn't realize something. on a typical ups (well, on ours, anyway), there is no switchover from ac to dc. all the protected equipment is always running from the batteries (via an inverter), with the usual condition of also having them on charge. if the power fails, big deal - the computers never see it (until the batteries start to droop, but there's something like 60 car-sized batteries in that cabinet, so it takes a while). if you were gonna run the guts on straight dc instead of an inverter, why not do it all the time? then there'd be no switchover to screw things up, and no having to sense the failure fast. just keep the dc on charge when the power is on, and it'll be there in zero time when you "need" it. actually, it's a bit more complicated than that...i sounds to me, your ups takes in ac, rectifies it to dc to charge the batteries, and then takes the battery dc and chops it to ac again, feeding your equipment. this approach is the easiest and cleanest way to switchover from the mains to battery once your power kicks out since, as you mentioned, nothing will know about what happened down the line. another way to do the ups scheme is to use the mains until you lose power, and then kick in the battery backup with it's inverter to replace the lost power. the problem here is the switchover time and you've got to resync the ac in no time flat. unfortunately, most everything is built around the assumption that ac is available, so the ups guys have to provide and ac output to be usable...ya sorta have to make it work with what there already. similar story with our telephone system. it was first invented back in the 1800's. we're still using the same damn system (media) as they did back then. if i have a phone from back then, i can assure you it'll work on today's phone system. it costs too much to overhaul everyone to a new system, so they make it work with what is out there. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53558">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53558" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to digitize the output of a squid magnetometer (range -10 v to +10 v) and do digital signal processing in a computer, say a macintosh ii or a 486 pc. i would like a good 16 bit adc with good linearity and a high conversion speed, at least 50 khz, preferably 200 khz. other concerns (2) must i use an adc external to my computer to avoid digital noise feedback into my sensitive squid electronics? might be a good idea... the resolution you requested is about 0.3mv in order to get what you've paid for, noise level better be lower than that. it is kind of hard to do it in a noisy box like you can expect inside a pc. before you pay $$$ for a pc card, test it out by sampling a low distortion sine wave (i think there is a sine wave on a cd. digital domain ? there are possibly other low thd sources) run the digitized waveform through a fft transform and take alook at the noise floor on the spectrum. that's should give you a good indication of the design. (that's what i am doing to test a data acquistion system i have designed - i got the idea from maxim data sheet.) if you can live with 14 bit resolution, i would recommend looking at the max121 from maxim. it is a high speed (308khz) complete sampling a/d with dsp interface. the input range is +/- 5v and it uses a serial interface (which can easily be optically isolated from the computer to elinimate a major noise source) the analog design guide i got from them shows a -100db noise level. they claim a -77db max (-85 typ.) thd. looks pretty good for the $12 @ 1000 pieces a evaluation kit is available. might want to give these nice folks a call. 1-800-998-8800 or fax: (408)737-7194 and (408) 737-7600 ext4000 for application assistance. this assumes that you can build your own das and write your own software. (hey you can get the max121 as a free sample just by calling the 1-800 #) i would appreciate discussion of your personal experience with a mac or pc- based adc system. i would recommend you to find out the resolution that can be gotten out of your system by looking at the noise level, otherwise you might be throwing out your money. charles cunningham cec@imager.llnl.gov k. c. lee elec. eng. grad. student i have no connection with maxim except i do in general recommend companies that give samples to students to others. i feel they deserve that for being nice to me. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53559">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53559" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i was wondering if people had any good uses for old |> 256k simms. i have a bunch of them for the apple mac |> and i know lots of other people do to. i have tried to |> sell them but have gotten no interest. |> so, if you have an inovative use (or want to buy |> some simms 8-) ), i would be very interested in hearing |> about it. the most practical use i've seen for them is as key ring ornaments :-) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53561">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53561" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there are devices you can buy and/or make. look in radio & popular electronics mags for the devices. if all else fails, you can build one using the curcuit design from the dec. '87 issue of radio electronics. my very favorite ad for such a device is on the back of the latest damark catalog. quoting from memory: [big flashy type] "dual deck vcr copies any tape -- even those that are copy protected!*" (and underneath the ad in very small print: *this device is not intended for making illegal copies of copyrighted material.) gordon s. hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec. 3rd! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53562">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53562" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 }|> there are two simple procedures for alterating any odometer. }|> 1. mechanical driven odometer: }|> remove the speedo cable from the transmission. }|> attach a drill and run at max speed until the speedo turns over. }|> continue until the desired mileage is reached. }|> 2. electronically driven odometer: }|> remove the sensor wire from the sensor. }|> attach the calibration out signal from an oscope to the wire. }|> run until the speedo turns over and attains the desired mileage. }dear faster.. i kinda wonder.. have you ever tried version 2? on what? }since the sensor wire on a bmw feeds also into the computer.. and we }don't know what signal voltage is expected from it.. bad things }*could* happen... also since we don't know the pulse rate, we }may damage the analog part of the speedo (yes.. bmw uses a combined }instrument.. speed in analog, trip and total milage is digital) with }the needle pegged up against the 160mph stop.. }just a thought... you've got the oscilliscope, so you connect it up to the sensor wire and measure this stuff. that way you know what it expects. matthew t. russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu some news readers expect "disclaimer:" here. just say no to police searches and seizures. make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53563">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53563" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 recently, i discovered that it was possible to receive cable tv through the telescopic aerial on the top of my tv. the nearer this aerial is moved to the cable (which i am not connected to) which runs under the eaves of the house the better the signal. now, i was wondering how can i improve the signal? is it possible to improve the signal significantly? (some channels cable egress or emanations if you will are being radiated at free space impedance from cables that may be harmonically realated to certain channels and therfore the standing waves at 1/4 wave will transfer efficiently. also your antenna (a loose monopole) is also harmonically tuned and will be more efficient at 1/2 wavelength multiples. your best bet for this research is to use a tuned yagi antenna to get the gain you need. (std tv roof antenna type) the dipoles should be parallel to the radiating cable. a pre-amp doesn't help significantly in my experience in most cases. dino@inqmind.bison.mb.ca the inquiring mind bbs, winnipeg, manitoba 204 488-1607 wow, what a concept! does anybody want to speculate on how this "non-connection" would fit into the theft of cable services laws? it seems to me that unless this case is specifically written into the legislation that the cable company would not have a leg to stand upon in court. does anybody out there have any specific legal knowledge on this? jim ritterbusch ritterbus001@wcsu.ctstateu.edu - or - ne22@radiomail.net (temp, rf) there is an art, the guide says, or rather a knack to flying. the knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53569">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53569" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 since electrical wiring questions do turn up from time to time on sci.electronics (and the answers aren't always apparent, even to those skilled in electronics), i am hijacking the following faq and posting a copy here. i've asked the writers to cross-post to sci.electronics in the future. --- jeh@cmkrnl.com x-news: cmkrnl news.answers: 6685 newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,rec.woodworking,news.answers,misc.answers,rec.answers message-id: <wirefaq_733900891@ecicrl> reply-to: wirefaq@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (wiring faq commentary reception) followup-to: poster expires: 2 may 93 05:21:31 gmt organization: elegant communications inc., ottawa, canada summary: a series of questions and answers about house wiring approved: news-answers-request@mit.edu supersedes: <wirefaq_732691289@ecicrl> lines: 1524 archive-name: electrical-wiring last-modified: sun feb 21 16:56:10 est 1993 frequently asked questions on electrical wiring steven bellovin (smb@ulysses.att.com) chris lewis (clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca) comments to (automatic if you reply to this article): wirefaq@ferret.ocunix.on.ca this faq is formatted as a digest. most news readers can skip from one question to the next by pressing ^g. answers to many other topics related to houses can be obtained from the misc.consumers.house archive; send an empty piece of mail to house-archive@dg-rtp.dg.com for information. changes to previous issue marked with "|" in left column. watch particularly for "new" in the questions list for new or substantively changed answers. note that this is now a registered faq - cross-posted to news.answers and should appear in the faq list of lists. introduction/disclaimers what is the nec? where can i get a copy? what is the cec? where can i get a copy? can i do my own wiring? extra pointers? what do i need in the way of tools? what is ul listing? what is csa approval? are there any cheaper, easier to read books on wiring? inspections how and what? why should i get my wiring inspected? my house doesn't meet some of these rules and regulations. a word on voltages: 110/115/117/120/125/220/240 what does an electrical service look like? what is a circuit? "grounding" versus "grounded" versus "neutral". what does a fuse or breaker do? what are the differences? breakers? can't i use fuses? what size wire should i use? where do these numbers come from? what does "14-2" mean? what is a "wirenut"/"marrette"/"marr connector". how are they used? what is a gfi/gfci? where should gfcis be used? where shouldn't i use a gfci? what is the difference between a gfci outlet and a gfci breaker? what's the purpose of the ground prong on an outlet, then? why is one prong wider than the other? polarization what kind of outlets do i need in a kitchen? where must outlets and switches be in bathrooms? what is romex/nm/nmd? what is bx? when should i use each? should i use plastic or metal boxes? junction box positioning? can i install a replacement fixture? what does it mean when the lights brighten when a motor starts? what is 3 phase power? should i use it? can i get it in my house? is it better to run motors at 110 or 220? what is this nonsense about 3hp on 110v 15a circuits? how do i convert two prong receptacles to three prong? are you sure about gfcis and ungrounded outlets? should the test button work? how should i wire my shop? underground wiring aluminum wiring i'm buying a house! what should i do? what is this weird stuff? old style wiring where do i buy stuff? although we've done a fair bit of wiring, we are not electricians, and we cannot be responsible for what you do. if you're at all uncertain about what is correct or safe, *don't do it*. contact someone qualified -- a licensed electrician, or your local electrical inspector. electricity is no joke; mistakes can result in shocks, fires, or electrocution. furthermore, our discussion is based on the u.s. national electrical code (nec) and the canadian electrical code (cec). to the best of our abilities, we have confirmed every detail with the electrical code, but we don't quote sections simply to keep this thing readable. if you think we're wrong, we invite you to correct us, but please - quote references! the nec and the cec do not, in and of themselves, have the force of law. many municipalities adopt it en toto. others, however, do not. check your with your local building department (and <provincial> hydro inspection offices in canada) to find out what applies in your area. also, your local electrical utility may also have special requirements for electrical service installation. bear in mind, too, that we say here applies primarily to ordinary single-family residences. multi-family dwellings, mobile homes, commercial establishments, etc., are sometimes governed by different also note that, contrary to popular belief in the u.s. (and in some parts of canada), canada is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of the u.s. consequently, the nec does not apply in canada. lots of things are the same, including voltages, line frequencies, and the laws of physics. but there are a number of crucial differences in the regulations. where we can, we've noted them, flagging the relevant passages with ``nec'' or ``cec''. remember that the cec and nec are minimal standards. it is often smart to go beyond their minimal requirements. the nec is a model electrical code devised and published by the national fire protection association, an insurance industry group. it's revised every three years. the 1993 version has been released. you can buy a copy at a decent bookstore, or by calling them directly at 800-344-3555. the code exists in several versions. there's the full text, which is fairly incomprehensible. there's an abridged edition, which has only the sections likely to apply to most houses. and there's the nec handbook, which contains the ``authorized commentary'' on the code, as well as the full text. that's the recommended version. unfortunately, there's no handbook for the abridged edition. and the full handbook is expensive -- us$65 plus shipping and handling. the canadian standards association is an organization made up of various government agencies, power utilities, insurance companies, electrical manufacturers and other organizations. the csa publishes csa standard c22.1 which is updated every two or three years. each province adopts, with some amendments, this standard and publishes a province-specific code book. since each province publishes its own slightly modified standard, it would be somewhat confusing to obtain the csa standard itself. in this faq, "cec" really means the appropriate provincial standard. in particular, this faq is derived from the ontario hydro electrical safety code, 20th edition (1990). which is in turn based on csa c22.1-1990 (16th edition). while differences exist between the provinces, an attempt has been made to avoid specific-to-ontario detail. the appropriate provincial code can be obtained from electrical inspection offices of your provincial power authority. in ontario, it's ontario hydro. the ontario hydro book isn't overly fat. it's about c$25, and includes mailed updates. i hear that these standards are somewhat easier to read than the equivalent nec publications. don't bother asking in quebec - diy wiring is banned throughout the province. in most places, homeowners are allowed to do their own wiring. in some, they're not. check with your local electrical inspector. most places won't permit you to do wiring on other's homes for money without a license. nor are you permitted to do wiring in "commercial" buildings. multiple dwellings (eg: duplexes) are usually considered "semi-commercial" or "commercial". however, many jurisdictions will permit you to work on semi-commercial wiring if you're supervised by a licensed electrician - if you can find one willing to supervise. if you do your own wiring, an important point: do it neat and well! what you really want to aim for is a better job than an electrician will do. after all, it's your own home, and it's you or your family that might get killed if you make a mistake. an electrician has time pressures, has the skills and knows the tricks of the trade to do a fast, safe job. in this faq we've consciously given a few recommendations that are in excess of code, because we feel that it's reasonable, and will impress the inspector. the inspector will know that you're an amateur. you have to earn his trust. the best way of doing this is to spend your time doing as neat a job as possible. don't cut corners. exceed specifications. otherwise, the inspector may get extremely picky and fault you on the slightest transgressions. don't try to hide anything from the inspector. use the proper tools. ie: don't use a bread knife to strip wires, or twist wires with your fingers. the inspector won't like it, and the results won't be that safe. and it takes longer. and you're more likely to stick a hunk of 12ga wire through your hand that way. don't handle house wire when it's very cold (eg: below -10c or 16f). thermoplastic house wire, particularly older types become very brittle. first, there's the obvious -- a hammer, a drill, a few screwdrivers, both straight and phillips-head. if you're lucky enough to live in canada (or find a source of csa-approved devices) you need robertson ("square recess") screwdrivers (#1 and #2) instead of phillips. for drilling a few holes, a 3/4" or 1" spade bit and 1/4" or 3/8" electric drill will do. if you're doing a lot, or are working with elderly lumber, we recommend a 1/2" drill (right-angle drills are wonderful. can be rented) and 3/4" or 1" screw-point auger drill bits. these bits pull you through, so they're much faster and less fatiguing, even in 90 year old hardwood timbers. screw-driver bits are useful for drills, expecially if you install your electrical boxes using screws (drywall screws work well). for stripping wire, use a real wire stripper, not a knife or ordinary wire cutters. don't buy the $3 k-mart "combo stripper, crimper and bottle opener" types. you should expect to pay $15 to $20 for a good "plier-type" pair. it will have sized stripping holes, and won't nick or grab the wire - it should be easy to strip wire with it. one model has a small hole in the blade for forming exact wire loops for screw terminals. there are fancier types (autostrip/cut), but they generally aren't necessary, and pros usually don't use them. a pair of diagonal side cutter pliers are useful for clipping ends in constricted places. don't use these for stripping wire. you will need linesman pliers for twisting wires for wire nuts. you should have a pair of needle-nose pliers for fiddling inside boxes and closing loops, but it's better to form wire loops with a "loop former hole" on your wire stripper - more if you're using non-metallic cable, get a cable stripper for removing the sheath. or, do what some pros do, they nick the end of the sheath, grab the ground wire with a pair of pliers, and simply rip the sheath back using the ground wire as a "zipper", and cut the sheath off. you shouldn't try to strip the sheath with a knife point, because it's too easy to slash the insulation on the conductors. apparently stanley utility knives fitted with linoleum cutters (hooked blades) can be used to strip sheath, but there is still the possibility that you'll gouge the conductors. for any substantial amount of work with armored cable, it's well worth your while to invest in a rotary cable splitter (~us$ 18). hack saws are tricky to use without cutting into the wire or the insulation. three-prong outlet testers are a quick check for properly-wired outlets. about $6. multimeters tell you more, but are a lot more expensive, and probably not worth it for most people. a simple voltage sensor, which can detect potential through an insulated wire not supplying any devices, is extremely helpful; they cost about us$ 10 at radio shack. you should have a voltage detector - to check that the wires are dead before doing work on them. neon-bulb version are cheap ($2-3) and work well. if you get more serious, a "audible alarm" type is good for tracing circuits without a helper. (though i've been known to lock the drill on, and hit breakers until the scream stops ;-) for running wires through existing walls, you need fish tape. often, two tapes are needed, though sometimes, a bent hanger or a length of thin chain will suffice. fish tapes can be rented. electrical tape. lots of it ;-) seriously, a good and competent wiring job will need very little tape. the tape is useful for wrapping dicy insulation in repair work. another use is to wrap around the body of outlets and switches to cover the termination screws - i don't do this, but drywall contractors prefer it (to prevent explosions when the drywall knife collides with a live outlet that has no cover plate). the ul stands for "underwriters laboratory". it used to be an insurance industry organization, but now it is independent and non-profit. it tests electrical components and equipment for potential hazards. when something is ul-listed, that means that the ul has tested the device, and it meets their requirements for safety - ie: fire or shock hazard. it doesn't necessarily mean that the device actually does what it's supposed to, just that it probably won't kill you. the ul does not have power of law in the u.s. -- you are permitted to buy and install non-ul-listed devices. however, insurance policies sometimes have clauses in them that will limit their liability in case of a claim made in response to the failure of a non-ul-listed device. furthermore, in many situations the nec will require that a wiring component used for a specific purpose is ul-listed for that purpose. indirectly, this means that certain parts of your wiring must be ul-listed before an inspector will approve it and/or occupancy permits issued. every electrical device or component must be certified by the canadian standards association before it can be sold in canada. implicit in this is that all wiring must be done with csa-approved materials. they perform testing similar to the ul (a bit more stringent), except that csa approval is required by law. again, like the ul, if a fire was caused by non-csa-approved equipment, your insurance company may not have to pay the in canada, there is a branch organization of the ul, called ulc (ul of canada). ulc does not have power of law, and seems to be more a liason group between the csa and insurance usa: the following three books were suggested by our readers residential wiring by jeff markell, craftsman books, carlsbad ca for $18.25. isbn 0-934041-19-9. practical electrical wiring residential, farm and industrial, based on the national electrical code ansi/nfpa 70 herbert p. richter and w. creighton schwan mcgraw-hill book co. wiring simplified h. p. richter and w. c. schwan park publishing co. try to make sure that the book is based on the latest nec revision. which is currently 1990. canada: p.s. knight authors and publishes a book called "electrical code simplified". there appears to be a version published specific to each province, and is very tied into the appropriate provincial code. it focuses on residential wiring, and is indispensible for canadian diy'ers. it is better to get this book than the cec unless you do a lot of wiring (or answer questions on the net ;-). it is updated each time the provincial codes are. this book is available at all diy and hardware stores for less than c$10. most jurisdictions require that you obtain a permit and inspections of any wiring that is done. amongst other more mundane bureaucratic reasons (like insurance companies not liking to have to pay claims), a permit and inspections provides some assurance that you, your family, your neighbors or subsequent owners of your home don't get killed or lose their homes one night due to a sloppy wiring job. most jurisdictions have the power to order you to vacate your home, or order you to tear out any wiring done without a permit. california, for instance, is particularly nasty about if fire starts in your home, and un-inspected wiring is at fault, insurance companies will often refuse to pay the damage in general, the process goes like this: - you apply to your local inspections office or building department for a permit. you should have a sketch or detailed drawing of what you plan on doing. this is a good time to ask questions on any things you're not sure of. if you're doing major work, they may impose special conditions on you, require loading calculations and ask other questions. at this point they will tell you which inspections you will need. - if you're installing a main panel, you will need to have the panel and service connections inspected before your power utility will provide a connection. this is sometimes done by the local power authority rather than the usual inspectors. - after installing the boxes and wiring, but before the insulation/walls go up, you will need a "rough-in" inspection. - after the walls are up, and the wiring is complete, you will need a "final inspection". do i have to upgrade? in general, there is no requirement to upgrade older dwellings, though there are some exceptions (ie: smoke detectors in some cases). however, any new work must be done according to the latest electrical code. also, if you do ``major'' work, you may be required to upgrade certain existing portions or all of your system. check with your local electrical inspector. one thing where things might get a bit confusing is the different numbers people bandy about for the voltage of a circuit. one person might talk about 110v, another 117v or another 120v. these are all, in fact, exactly the same thing... in north america the utility companies are required to supply a split-phase 240 volt (+-5%) feed to your house. this works out as two 120v +- 5% legs. additionally, since there are resistive voltage drops in the house wiring, it's not unreasonable to find 120v has dropped to 110v or 240v has dropped to 220v by the time the power reaches a wall outlet. especially at the end of an extension cord or long circuit run. for a number of reasons, some historical, some simple personal orneryness, different people choose call them by slightly different numbers. this faq has chosen to be consistent with calling them "110v" and "220v", except when actually saying what the measured voltage will be. confusing? a bit. just ignore it. one thing that might make this a little more understandable is that the nameplates on equipment ofen show the lower (ie: 110v instead of 120v) value. what this implies is that the device is designed to operate properly when the voltage drops that 208v is *not* the same as 240v. 208v is the voltage between phases of a 3-phase "y" circuit that is 120v from neutral to any hot. 480v is the voltage between phases of a 3-phase "y" circuit that's 277v from hot to neutral. in keeping with 110v versus 120v strangeness, motors intended to run on 480v three phase are often labelled as 440v... there are logically four wires involved with supplying the main panel with power. three of them will come from the utility pole, and a fourth (bare) wire comes from elsewhere. the bare wire is connected to one or more long metal bars pounded into the ground, or to a wire buried in the foundation, or sometimes to the water supply pipe (has to be metal, continuous to where the main water pipe entering the house. watch out for galvanic action conductivity "breaks" (often between copper and iron pipe)). this is the "grounding conductor". it is there to make sure that the third prong on your outlets is connected to ground. this wire normally carries no current. one of the other wires will be white (or black with white or yellow stripes, or sometimes simply black). it is the neutral wire. it is connected to the "centre tap" (cec; "center tap" in the nec) of the distribution transformer supplying the power. it is connected to the grounding conductor in only one place (often inside the panel). the neutral and ground should not be connected anywhere else. otherwise, weird and/or dangerous things may happen. furthermore, there should only be one grounding system in a home. some codes require more than one grounding electrode. these will be connected together, or connected to the neutral at a common point - still one grounding system. adding additional grounding electrodes connected to other portions of the house wiring is unsafe and contrary to code. if you add a subpanel, the ground and neutral are usually brought as separate conductors from the main panel, and are not connected together in the subpanel (ie: still only one neutral-ground connection). however, in some situations (certain categories of separate buildings) you actually do have to provide a second grounding electrode - consult your the other two wires will usually be black, and are the "hot" wires. they are attached to the distribution transformer as the two black wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. this means if you connect something to both hot wires, the voltage will be 220 volts. if you connect something to the white and either of the two blacks you will get 110v. some panels seem to only have three wires coming into them. this is either because the neutral and ground are connected together at a different point (eg: the meter or pole) and one wire is doing dual-duty as both neutral and ground, or in some rare occasions, the service has only one hot wire (110v only service). inside the panel, connections are made to the incoming wires. these connections are then used to supply power to selected portions of the home. there are three different combinations: 1) one hot, one neutral, and ground: 110v circuit. 2) two hots, no neutral, and ground: 220v circuit. 3) two hots, neutral, and ground: 220v circuit + neutral, and/or two 110v circuits with a common neutral. (1) is used for most circuits supplying receptacles and lighting within your house. (3) is usually used for supplying power to major appliances such as stoves, and dryers - they often have need for both 220v and 110v, or for bringing several circuits from the panel box to a distribution point. (2) is usually for special 220v motor circuits, electric heaters, or air conditioners. [note: in the us, the nec frequently permits a circuit similar to (2) be used for stoves and dryers - namely, that there are two hot wires, and a wire that does dual duty as neutral and ground, and is connected to the frame as well as providing the neutral for 110v purposes - three prong plugs instead of four (*only* for stoves/dryers connected to the main panel. when connected to most sub-panels, 4 prong plugs and receptacles are required). in our not-so-humble opinion this is crazy, but the nfpa claims that this practice was re-evaluated for the 1992 nec, and found to be safe. check your local codes, or inquire as to local practice -- there are restrictions on when this is permissible.] (1) is usually wired with three conductor wire: black for hot, white for neutral, and bare for grounding. (2) and (3) have one hot wire coloured red, the other black, a bare wire for grounding, and in (3) a white wire for neutral. you will sometimes see (2) wired with just a black, white and ground wire. since the white is "hot" in this case, both the nec and cec requires that the white wire be "permanently marked" at the ends to indicate that it is a live wire. usually done with paint, nail polish or sometimes electrical tape. each circuit is attached to the main wires coming into the panel through a circuit breaker or fuse. there are, in a few locales, circuits that look like (1), (2) or (3) except that they have two bare ground wires. some places require this for hot tubs and the like (one ground is "frame ground", the other attaches to the motor). this may or may not be an alternative to gfci protection. according to the terminology in the cec and nec, the "grounding" conductor is for the safety ground, i.e., the green or bare wire. the word "neutral" is reserved for the white when you have a circuit with more than one "hot" wire. since the white wire is connected to neutral and the grounding conductor inside the panel, the proper term is "grounded conductor". however, the potential confusion between "grounded conductor" and "grounding conductor" can lead to potentially lethal mistakes - you should never use the bare wire as a "grounded conductor" or white wire as the "grounding conductor", even though they are connected together in the panel. [but not in subpanels - subpanels are fed neutral and ground separately from the main panel. usually.] in the trade, and in common usage, the word "neutral" is used for "grounded conductor". this faq uses "neutral" simply to avoid potential confusion. we recommend that you use "neutral" too. thus the white wire is always (except in some light switch applications) neutral. not ground. fuses and circuit breakers are designed to interrupt the power to a circuit when the current flow exceeds safe levels. for example, if your toaster shorts out, a fuse or breaker should "trip", protecting the wiring in the walls from melting. as such, fuses and breakers are primarily intended to protect the wiring -- ul or csa approval supposedly indicates that the equipment itself won't cause a fire. fuses contain a narrow strip of metal which is designed to melt (safely) when the current exceeds the rated value, thereby interrupting the power to the circuit. fuses trip relatively fast. which can sometimes be a problem with motors which have large startup current surges. for motor circuits, you can use a "time-delay" fuse (one brand is "fusetron") which will avoid tripping on momentary overloads. a fusetron looks like a spring-loaded fuse. a fuse can only trip once, then it must be breakers are fairly complicated mechanical devices. they usually consist of one spring loaded contact which is latched into position against another contact. when the current flow through the device exceeds the rated value, a bimetallic strip heats up and bends. by bending it "trips" the latch, and the spring pulls the contacts apart. circuit breakers behave similarly to fusetrons - that is, they tend to take longer to trip at moderate overloads than ordinary fuses. with high overloads, they trip quickly. breakers can be reset a finite number of times - each time they trip, or are thrown when the circuit is in use, some arcing takes place, which damages the contacts. thus, breakers should not be used in place of switches unless they are specially listed for the neither fuses nor breakers "limit" the current per se. a dead short on a circuit can cause hundreds or sometimes even thousands of amperes to flow for a short period of time, which can often cause severe damage. statistics show that fuse panels have a significantly higher risk of causing a fire than breaker panels. this is usually due to the fuse being loosely screwed in, or the contacts corroding and heating up over time, or the wrong size fuse being installed, or the proverbial "replace the fuse with a penny" trick. since breakers are more permanently installed, and have better connection mechanisms, the risk of fire is considerably less. fuses are prone to explode under extremely high overload. when a fuse explodes, the metallic vapor cloud becomes a conducting path. result? from complete meltdown of the electrical panel, melted service wiring, through fires in the electrical distribution transformer and having your house burn down. breakers don't do this. many jurisdictions, particularly in canada, no longer permit fuse panels in new installations. the nec does permit new fuse panels in some rare circumstances (requiring the special inserts to "key" the fuseholder to specific size fuses) some devices, notably certain large air conditioners, require fuse protection in addition to the breaker at the panel. the fuse is there to protect the motor windings from overload. check the labeling on the unit. this is usually only on large permanently installed motors. the installation instructions will tell you if you need one. for a 20 amp circuit, use 12 gauge wire. for a 15 amp circuit, you can use 14 gauge wire (in most locales). for a long run, though, you should use the next larger size wire, to avoid voltage drops. 12 gauge is only slightly more expensive than 14 gauge, though it's stiffer and harder to work with. here's a quick table for normal situations. go up a size for more than 100 foot runs, when the cable is in conduit, or ganged with other wires in a place where they can't dissipate heat easily: gauge amps 14 15 12 20 10 30 8 40 6 65 we don't list bigger sizes because it starts getting very dependent on the application and precise wire type. there are two considerations, voltage drop and heat buildup. the smaller the wire is, the higher the resistance is. when the resistance is higher, the wire heats up more, and there is more voltage drop in the wiring. the former is why you need higher-temperature insulation and/or bigger wires for use in conduit; the latter is why you should use larger wire for long neither effect is very significant over very short distances. there are some very specific exceptions, where use of smaller wire is allowed. the obvious one is the line cord on most lamps. don't try this unless you're certain that your use fits one of those exceptions; you can never go wrong by using larger this is used to describe the size and quantity of conductors in a cable. the first number specifies the gauge. the second the number of current carrying conductors in the wire - but remember there's usually an extra ground wire. "14-2" means 14 gauge, two insulated current carrying wires, plus bare ground. -2 wire usually has a black, white and bare ground wire. sometimes the white is red instead for 220v circuits without neutral. in the latter case, the sheath is usually red too. -3 wire usually has a black, red, white and bare ground wire. usually carrying 220v with neutral. a wire nut is a cone shaped threaded plastic thingummy that's used to connect wires together. "marrette" or "marr connector" are trade names. you'll usually use a lot of them in diy wiring. in essence, you strip the end of the wires about an inch, twist them together, then twist the wirenut on. though some wirenuts advertise that you don't need to twist the wire, do it anyways - it's more mechanically and electrically there are many different sizes of wire nut. you should check that the wire nut you're using is the correct size for the quantity and sizes of wire you're connecting together. don't just gimble the wires together with a pair of pliers or your fingers. use a pair of blunt nose ("linesman") pliers, and carefully twist the wires tightly and neatly. sometimes it's a good idea to trim the resulting end to make sure it goes in the wirenut properly. some people wrap the "open" end of the wirenut with electrical tape. this is probably not a good idea - the inspector may tear it off during an inspection. it's usually done because a bit of bare wire is exposed outside the wire nut - instead of taping it, the connection should be redone. a gfci is a ``ground-fault circuit interrupter''. it measures the current current flowing through the hot wire and the neutral wire. if they differ by more than a few milliamps, the presumption is that current is leaking to ground via some other path. this may be because of a short circuit to the chassis of an appliance, or to the ground lead, or through a person. any of these situations is hazardous, so the gfci trips, breaking the circuit. gfcis do not protect against all kinds of electric shocks. if, for example, you simultaneously touched the hot and neutral leads of a circuit, and no part of you was grounded, a gfci wouldn't help. all of the current that passed from the hot lead into you would return via the neutral lead, keeping the gfci happy. the two pairs of connections on a gfci outlet are not symmetric. one is labeled load; the other, line. the incoming power feed *must* be connected to the line side, or the outlet will not be protected. the load side can be used to protect all devices downstream from it. thus, a whole string of outlets can be covered by a single gfci outlet. the nec mandates gfcis for 110v, 15a or 20a single phase outlets, in bathrooms, kitchens within 6' of the sink, garages, unfinished basements or crawl spaces, outdoors, near a pool, or just about anywhere else where you're likely to encounter water or dampness. there are exceptions for inaccessible outlets, those dedicated to appliances ``occupying fixed space'', typically refrigerators and freezers, and for sump pumps and laundry appliances. the cec does not mandate as many gfcis. in particular, there is no requirement to protect kitchen outlets, or most garage or basement outlets. basement outlets must be protected if you have a dirt floor, garage outlets if they're near the door to outside. bathrooms and most exterior outlets must have gfcis. even if you are not required to have gfci protection, you may want to consider installing it anyway. unless you need a gfci breaker (see below), the cost is low. in the u.s., gfci outlets can cost as little as us$8. (costs are a bit higher in canada: c$12.) evaluate your own risk factors. does your finished basement ever get wet? do you have small children? do you use your garage outlets to power outdoor tools? does water or melted snow ever puddle inside your garage? gfcis are generally not used on circuits that (a) don't pose a safety risk, and (b) are used to power equipment that must run unattended for long periods of time. refrigerators, freezers, and sump pumps are good examples. the rationale is that gfcis are sometimes prone to nuisance trips. some people claim that the inductive delay in motor windings can cause a momentary current imbalance, tripping the gfci. note, though, that most gfci trips are real; if you're getting a lot of trips for no apparent reason, you'd be well-advised to check your wiring before deciding that the gfci is broken or useless. for most situations, you can use either a gfci outlet as the first device on the circuit, or you can install a breaker with a built-in gfci. the former is generally preferred, since gfci breakers are quite expensive. for example, an ordinary ge breaker costs ~us$5; the gfci model costs ~us$35. there is one major exception: if you need to protect a ``multi-wire branch circuit'' (two or more circuits sharing a common neutral wire), such as a canadian-style kitchen circuit, you'll need a multi-pole gfci breaker. unfortunately, these are expensive; the cost can range into the hundreds of dollars, depending on what brand of panel box you have. but if you must protect such a circuit (say, for a pool heater), you have no choice. one more caveat -- gfci outlets are bulky. you may want to use an oversize box when installing them. on second thought, use large (actually deep) boxes everywhere. you'll thank yourself for it. incidentally, if you're installing a gfci to ensure that one specific outlet is protected (such as a bathroom), you don't really have to go to all of the trouble to find the first outlet in the circuit, you could simply find the first outlet in the bathroom, and not gfci anything upstream of it. but protecting the whole circuit is preferred. when you install a gfci, it's a good idea to use the little "ground fault protected" stickers that come with it and mark the outlets downstream of the gfci. you can figure out which outlets are "downstream", simply by tripping the gfci with the test button and see which outlets are dead. apart from their use in electronics, which we won't comment on, and for certain fluorescent lights (they won't turn on without a good ground connection), they're intended to guard against insulation failures within the device. generally, the case of the appliance is connected to the ground lead. if there's an insulation failure that shorts the hot lead to the case, the ground lead conducts the electricity away safely (and possibly trips the circuit breaker in the process). if the case is not grounded and such a short occurs, the case is live -- and if you touch it while you're grounded, you'll get zapped. of course, if the circuit is gfci-protected, it will be a very tiny zap -- which is why you can use gfcis to replace ungrounded outlets (both nec and cec). there are some appliances that should *never* be grounded. in particular, that applies to toasters and anything else with exposed conductors. consider: if you touch the heating electrode in a toaster, and you're not grounded, nothing will happen. if you're slightly grounded, you'll get a small shock; the resistance will be too high. but if the case were grounded, and you were holding it, you'd be the perfect path to ground... nowadays, many two-prong devices have one prong wider than the other. this is so that the device could rely (not guaranteed!) on one specific wire being neutral, and the other hot. this is particularly advantageous in light fixtures, where the the shell should neutral (safety), or other devices which want to have an approximate ground reference (ie: some radios). most 2-prong extension cords have wide prongs too. this requires that you wire your outlets and plugs the right way around. you want the wide prong to be neutral, and the narrow one hot. most outlets have a darker metal for the hot screw, and lighter coloured screw for the neutral. if not, you can usually figure out which is which by which prong the terminating screw connects to. the nec requires at least two 20 amp ``small appliance circuits'' for kitchens. the cec requires split-duplex receptacles. outlets must be installed such that no point is more than 24" (nec) (900 mm cec) from an outlet. every counter wider than 12" (nec) or 300 mm (cec) must have at least one outlet. the circuit these outlets are on may not feed any outlets except in the kitchen, pantry, or dining room. furthermore, these circuits are in addition to any required for refrigerators, stoves, microwaves, lighting, etc. non-dedicated outlets within 6' of a sink *must* be protected by a gfci (nec only). split duplex receptacles are fed with a 220v circuit. the tab is broken on the hot side of the outlet, and one hot goes to the upper outlet, and the other hot goes to the lower outlet. the neutral connects to both outlets through one screw. when "carrying through" to another outlet, the neutral must be pigtailed, such that removing the outlet, or having the neutral connection fall off doesn't cause the neutral to disconnect from downstream outlets. there must be at least one outlet in each bathroom, adjacent to the sink, in addition to any outlet that may be incorporated in the light fixture. all such outlets *must* be gfci-protected. romex is a brand name for a type of plastic insulated wire. sometimes called non-metallic sheath. the formal name is nm. this is suitable for use in dry, protected areas (ie: inside stud walls, on the sides of joists etc.), that are not subject to mechanical damage or excessive heat. most newer homes are wired almost exclusively with nm wire. there are several different categories of nm cable. bx cable -- technically known as armored cable or "ac" has a flexible aluminum or steel sheath over the conductors and is fairly resistant to damage. teck cable is ac with an additional external thermoplastic protection for cable in concealed locations: where nm or ac cable is run through studs, joists or similar wooden members, the outer surface of the cable must be kept at least 32mm/1.25" (cec & nec) from the edges of the wooden members, or the cable should be protected from mechanical injury. this latter protection can take the form of metal plates (such as spare outlet box ends) or conduit. [note: inspector-permitted practise in canada suggests that armored cable, or flexible conduit can be used as the mechanical protection, but this is technically illegal.] additional protection recommendations (these are rules in the canadian codes - they are reasonable answers to the vague references to "exposed to mechanical damage" in both the nec and cec): - nm cable should be protected against mechanical damage where it passes through floors or on the surface of walls in exposed locations under 5 feet from the floor. ie: use ac instead, flexible conduit, wooden guards etc. - where cable is suspended, as in, connections to furnaces or water heaters, the wire should be protected. canadian practise is usually to install a junction or outlet box on the wall, and use a short length of ac cable or nm cable in flexible conduit to "jump" to the appliance. stapling nm to a piece of lumber is also sometimes used. - where nm cable is run in close proximity to heating ducts or pipe, heat transfer should be minimized by means of a 25mm/1" air space, or suitable insulation material (a wad of fiberglass). - nm cable shall be supported within 300mm/1' of every box or fitting, and at intervals of no more than 1.5m/5'. holes in joists or studs are considered "supports". some slack in the cable should be provided adjacent to each box. [while fishing cable is technically in violation, it is permitted where "proper" support is impractical] - 2 conductor nm cable should never be stapled on edge. [knight also insists on only one cable per staple, referring to the "workmanship" clause, but this seems more honoured in the breach...] - cable should never be buried in plaster, cement or similar finish. - cable should be protected where it runs behind baseboards. - cable may not be run on the upper edge of ceiling joists or the lower edges of rafters where the headroom is more than 1m (39"). whenever bx cable is terminated at a box with a clamp, small plastic bushings must be inserted in the end of the cable to prevent the clamps forcing the sharp ends of the armor through the insulation. bx is sometimes a good idea in a work shop unless covered by solid wall coverings. in places where damage is more likely (like on the back wall of a garage ;-), you may be required to use conduit, a ul- (or csa-) approved metal pipe. you use various types of fittings to join the pipe or provide entrance/exit for the service entrances frequently use a plastic conduit. in damp places (eg: buried wiring to outdoor lighting) you will need special wire (eg: cec nmw90, nec uf). nmw90 looks like very heavy-duty nmd90. you will usually need short lengths of conduit where the wire enters/exits the ground. [see underground wiring section.] thermoplastic sheath wire (such as nm, nmw etc.) should not be exposed to direct sunlight unless explicitly approved for that many electrical codes do not permit the routing of wire through furnace ducts, including cold air return plenums constructed by metal sheeting enclosing joist spaces. the reason for this is that if there's a fire, the ducting will spread toxic gasses from burning insulation very rapidly through the building. teflon insulated wire is permitted in plenums in many areas. canada appears to use similar wire designations to the us, except that canadian wire designations usually include the temperature rating in celsius. eg: "ac90" versus "ac". in the us, nm-b is 90 degrees celcius. note: local codes vary. this is one of the items that changes most often. eg: chicago codes require conduit *everywhere*. there are very different requirements for mobile homes. check your local codes, *especially* if you're doing anything that's the slightest out of the ordinary. wire selection table (incomplete - the real tables are enormous, uncommon wire types or applications omitted) condition type cec nec exposed/concealed dry plastic nmd90 nm armor ac90 ac exposed/concealed damp plastic nmd90 nmc armor acwu90 exposed/concealed wet plastic nmwu90 armor acwu90 exposed to weather plastic nmwu tw etc. armor teck90 direct earth burial/ plastic nmwu* uf service entrance rwu armor ra90 [* nmwu not for service entrance] the nec permits use of plastic boxes with non-metallic cable only. the reasoning is simple -- with armored cable, the box itself provides ground conductor continuity. u.s. plastic boxes don't use metal cable clamps. the cec is slightly different. the cec never permits cable armor as a grounding conductor. however, you must still provide ground continuity for metallic sheath. the cec also requires grounding of any metal cable clamps on plastic boxes. the advantage of plastic boxes is comparatively minor even for non-metallic sheathed cable -- you can avoid making one ground connection and they sometimes cost a little less. on the other hand, plastic boxes are more vulnerable to impacts. for exposed or shop wiring, metal boxes are probably better. a junction box is a box used only for connecting wires together. junction boxes must be located in such a way that they're accessible later. ie: not buried under plaster. excessive use of junction boxes is often a sign of sloppy installation, and inspectors may get nasty. in general, one can replace fixtures freely, subject to a few caveats. first, of course, one should check the amperage rating of the circuit. if your heart is set on installing half a dozen 500 watt floodlights, you may need to run a new wire back to the panel box. but there are some more subtle constraints as well. for example, older house wiring doesn't have high-temperature insulation. the excess heat generated by a ceiling-mounted lamp can and will cause the insulation to deteriorate and crack, with obvious bad results. some newer fixtures are specifically marked for high temperature wire only. (you may find, in fact, that your ceiling wiring already has this problem, in which case replacing any devices is a real adventure.) other concerns include providing a suitable ground for some fluorescent fixtures, and making sure that the ceiling box and its mounting are strong enough to support the weight of a heavy chandelier or ceiling fan. you may need to install a new box specifically listed for this purpose. a 2x4 across the ceiling joists makes a good support. metal brackets are also available that can be fished into ceilings thru the junction box hole and mounted between the joists. there are special rules for recessed light fixtures such as "pot" lamps or heat lamps. when these are installed in insulated ceilings, they can present a very substantial fire hazard. the cec provides for the installation of pot lamps in insulated ceilings, provided that the fixture is boxed in a "coffin" (usually 8'x16"x12" - made by making a pair of joists 12" high, and covering with plywood) that doesn't have any insulation. (yes, that's 8 *feet* long) nec rules are somewhat less stringent. they require at least 3" clearance between the fixture and any sort of thermal insulation. the rules also say that one should not obstruct free air movement, which means that a cec-style ``coffin'' might be worthwhile. presumably, that's up to the local inspector. [the cec doesn't actually mandate the coffin per-se, this seems to be an inspector requirement to make absolutely certain that the fixture can't get accidentally buried in insulation. ie: if you have insulation blown in later.] there are now fixtures that contain integral thermal cutouts and fairly large cases that can be buried directly in insulation. they are usually limited to 75 watt bulbs, and are unfortunately, somewhat more expensive than the older types. before you use them, you should ensure that they have explicit ul or csa approval for such uses. follow the installation instructions carefully; the prescribed location for the sensor can vary. there does not yet appear to be a heat lamp fixture that is approved for use in insulation. the "coffin" appears the only legal approach. this usually means that the neutral wire in the panel is loose. depending on the load balance, one hot wire may end up being more than 110v, and the other less than 110v, with respect to ground. this is a very hazardous situation - it can destroy your electronic equipment, possibly start fires, and in some situations electrocute you (ie: some us jurisdictions require the stove frame connected to neutral). if this happens, contact your electrical authority immediately and have them come and check out the problem. note: a brief (< 1 second) brightening is sometimes normal with lighting and motors on the same 220v with neutral circuit. a loose main panel neutral will usually show increased brightness far longer than one second. in case of doubt, get help. three phase power has three "hot" wires, 120 degrees out of phase with each other. these are usually used for large motors because it is more "efficient", provides a bit more starting torque, and because the motors are simpler and hence cheaper. you're most likely to encounter a 3 phase circuit that shows 110 volts between any hot and ground, and 208 volts between any two hots. the latter shows the difference between a normal 220v/110v common neutral circuit, which is 240 volts between the two hots. there are 3 phase circuits with different voltages. bringing in a 3 phase feed to your house is usually ridiculously expensive, or impossible. if the equipment you want to run has a standard motor mount, it is *much* cheaper to buy a new 110v or 220v motor for it. in some cases it is possible to run 3 phase equipment on ordinary power if you have a "capacitor start" unit, or use a larger motor as a (auto-)generator. these are tricky, but are a good solution if the motor is non-standard size, or too expensive or too big to replace. the taunton press book ``the small shop'' has an article on how to do this if you must. note that you lose any possible electrical efficiency by using such a converter. the laws of thermodynamics guarantee that. theoretically, it doesn't make any difference. however, there is a difference is the amount of power lost in the supply wiring. all things being equal, a 220v motor will lose 4 times less power in the house wiring than a 110v motor. this also means that the startup surge loss will be less, and the motor will get to speed quicker. and in some circumstances, the smaller power loss will lead to longer motor life. this is usually irrelevant unless the supply wires are more than 50 feet long. it is a universal physical law that 1 hp is equal to 746 watts. given heating loss, power factor and other inefficiencies, it is usually best to consider 1 hp is going to need 1000-1200 watts. a 110v 15a circuit can only deliver 1850 watts to a motor, so it cannot possibly be more than approximately 2 hp. given rational efficiency factors, 1.5hp is more like it. some equipment manufacturers (sears in particular, most router manufacturers in general ;-) advertise a hp rating that is far in excess of what is possible. they are giving you a "stall horsepower" or similar. that means the power is measured when the motor is just about to stop turning because of the load. what they don't mention is that if you kept it in that condition for more than a few seconds hopefully your breaker will trip, otherwise the motor will melt -- it's drawing far more current than it can continuously. when comparing motors, compare the continuous horsepower. this should be on the motor nameplate. if you can't find that figure, check the amperage rating, which is always present. older homes frequently have two-prong receptacles instead of the more modern three. these receptacles have no safety ground, and the cabling usually has no ground wire. neither the nec or cec permits installing new 2 prong receptacles anymore. there are several different approaches to solving this: 1) if the wiring is done through conduit or bx, and the conduit is continuous back to the panel, you can connect the third prong of a new receptacle to the receptacle box. nec mainly - cec frowns on this practise. 2) if there is a copper cold water pipe going nearby, and it's continuous to the main house ground point, you can run a conductor to it from the third prong. 3) run a ground conductor back to the main panel. 4) easiest: install a gfci receptacle. the ground lug should not be connected to anything, but the gfci protection itself will serve instead. the gfci will also protect downstream (possibly also two prong outlets). if you do this to protect downstream outlets, the grounds must not be connected together. since it wouldn't be connected to a real ground, a wiring fault could energize the cases of 3 prong devices connected to other outlets. be sure, though, that there aren't indirect ground plug connections, such as via the sheath on bx cable. the cec permits you to replace a two prong receptacle with a three prong if you fill the u ground with a non-conducting goop. like caulking compound. this is not permitted in the nec. should the test button work? we're sure about what the nec and cec say. remember, though, that your local codes may vary. as for the test button -- there's a resistor connecting the load side of the hot wire to the line side of the neutral wire when you press the test button. current through this resistor shows up as an imbalance, and trips the gfci. this is a simple, passive, and reliable test, and doesn't require a real ground to work. if your gfci does not trip when you press the test button, it is very probably defective or miswired. again: if the test button doesn't work, something's broken, and potentially dangerous. the problem should be corrected immediately. the instructions that come with some gfcis specify that the ground wire must be connected. we do not know why they say this. the causes may be as mundane as an old instruction sheet, or with the formalities of ul or csa listing -- perhaps the device was never tested without the ground wire being connected. on the other hand, ul or csa approval should only have been granted if the device behaves properly in *all* listed applications, including ungrounded outlet replacement. (one of us called leviton; their gfcis are labeled for installation on grounded circuits only. the technician was surprised to see that; he agreed that the nec does not require it, and promised to investigate.) as with any other kind of wiring, you need enough power for all devices that will be on simultaneously. the code specifies that you should stay under 80% of the nominal capacity of the circuit. for typical home shop use, this means one circuit for the major power tools, and possibly one for a dust collector or shop vac. use at least 12 gauge wire -- many power tools have big motors, with a big start-up surge. if you can, use 20 amp breakers (nec), though cec requires standard 20a receptacles which means you'd have to "replug" all your equipment. lights should either be on a circuit of their own -- and not shared with circuits in the rest of the house -- or be on at least two separate circuits. the idea is that you want to avoid a situation where a blade is still spinning at several thousand rpm, while you're groping in the dark for the off switch. do install lots of outlets. it's easier to install them in the beginning, when you don't have to cut into an existing cable. it's useful if at least two circuits are accessible at each point, so you can run a shop vac or a compressor at the same time as the tool you really want. but use metal boxes and plates, and maybe even metal-sheathed cable; you may have objects flying around at high speeds if something goes a bit note that some jurisdictions have a "no horizontal wiring" rule in workshops or other unfinished areas that are used for working. what this means is that all wiring must be run along structural members. ie: stapled to studs. other possible shop circuits include heater circuits, 220v circuits for some large tools, and air compressor circuits. don't overload circuits, and don't use extension cords if you can help it, unless they're rated for high currents. (a coiled extension cord is not as safe as a straight length of wire of the same gauge. also, the insulation won't withstand as much heat, and heat dissipation is the critical issue.) if your shop is located at some remove from your main panel, you should probably install a subpanel, and derive your shop wiring from it. if you have young children, you may want to equip this panel with a cut-off switch, and possibly a lock. if you want to install individual switches to ``safe'' particular circuits, make sure you get ones rated high enough. for example, ordinary light switches are not safely able to handle the start-up surge generated by a table saw. buy ``horsepower-rated'' switches instead. finally, note that most home shops are in garages or unfinished basements; hence the nec requirements for gfcis apply. and even if you ``know'' that you'd never use one of your shop outlets to run a lawn mower, the next owner of your house might have a different idea. note: fine woodworking magazine often carries articles on shop wiring. april 1992 is one place to start. you will need to prepare a trench to specifications, use special wire, protect the wire with conduit or special plastic tubing and possibly lumber (don't use creosoted lumber, it rots thermoplastic insulation and acts as a catalyst in the corrosion of lead). the transition from in-house to underground wire is generally via conduit. all outdoor boxes must be specifically listed for the purpose, and contain the appropriate gaskets, fittings, etc. if the location of the box is subject to immersion in water, a more serious style of water-proof box is needed. and of course, don't forget the gfcis. the required depths and other details vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so we suggest you consult your inspector about your specific situation. a hint: buy a roll of bright yellow tape that says "buried power line" and bury it a few inches above where the wire has been placed. during the 1970's, aluminum (instead of copper) wiring became quite popular and was extensively used. since that time, aluminum wiring has been implicated in a number of house fires, and most jurisdictions no longer permit it in new installations. we recommend, even if you're allowed to, that do not use it for new but don't panic if your house has aluminum wiring. aluminum wiring, when properly installed, can be just as safe as copper. aluminum wiring is, however, very unforgiving of improper installation. we will cover a bit of the theory behind potential problems, and what you can do to make your wiring safe. the main problem with aluminum wiring is a phenomenon known as "cold creep". when aluminum wiring warms up, it expands. when it cools down, it contracts. unlike copper, when aluminum goes through a number of warm/cool cycles it loses a bit of tightness each time. to make the problem worse, aluminum oxidises, or corrodes when in contact with certain types of metal, so the resistance of the connection goes up. which causes it to heat up and corrode/ oxidize still more. eventually the wire may start getting very hot, melt the insulation or fixture it's attached to, and possibly even cause a fire. since people usually encounter aluminum wiring when they move into a house built during the 70's, we will cover basic points of safe aluminum wiring. we suggest that, if you're considering purchasing a home with aluminum wiring, or have discovered it later, that you hire a licensed electrician or inspector to check over the wiring for the following things: 1) fixtures (eg: outlets and switches) directly attached to aluminum wiring should be rated for it. the device will be stamped with "al/cu" or "co/alr". the latter supersedes the former, but both are safe. these fixtures are somewhat more expensive than the ordinary ones. 2) wires should be properly connected (at least 3/4 way around the screw in a clockwise direction). connections should be tight. while repeated tightening of the screws can make the problem worse, during the inspection it would pay off to snug up each connection. note that aluminum wiring is still often used for the main service entrance cable. it should be inspected. 3) "push-in" terminals are an extreme hazard with aluminum wire. any connections using push-in terminals should be redone with the proper screw connections immediately. 4) there should be no signs of overheating: darkened connections, melted insulation, or "baked" fixtures. any such damage should be repaired. 5) connections between aluminum and copper wire need to be handled specially. current canadian codes require that the wire nut used must be specially marked for connecting aluminum to copper. the nec requires that the wire be connected together using special crimp devices, with an anti-oxidant grease. the tools and materials for the latter are quite expensive - not practical to do it yourself unless you can rent the tool. 6) any non-rated receptacle can be connected to aluminum wiring by means of a short copper "pigtail". see (5) above. 7) shows reasonable workmanship: neat wiring, properly stripped (not nicked) wire etc. if, when considering purchasing a home, an inspection of the wiring shows no problems or only one or two, we believe that you can consider the wiring safe. if there are signs of problems in many places, we suggest you look elsewhere. if the wrong receptacles are used, you can replace them with the proper type, or use pigtails - having this professionally done can range from $3 to $10 per receptacle/switch. you can do this yourself too. congratulations. but... it's generally a good idea to hire an inspector to look through the house for hidden gotchas. not just for wiring, but plumbing and structural as well. if an inspection of the wiring shows no problems or only one or two minor ones, we believe that you can consider the wiring safe (after any minor problems are fixed). if there are signs of problems in many places, we suggest you look elsewhere. here's some hints on what to look for: obvious non-code wiring can include: - zip cord wiring, either concealed or nailed to walls - hot wiring on the identified (neutral) conductor without proper marking. - ungrounded grounding outlets (except when downstream of a gfci) - splices hanging in mid-air (other than proper knob-and-tube) - switched neutrals - unsecured romex swinging about like grapevines certain wiring practises that are actually to code (or were at one time) sometimes reveal diy wiring that may have hidden violations: - switches that seem to control nothing (abandoned, perhaps not properly terminated wiring) - a wall switch that shuts off a group of lights that are separately controlled by other wall switches. (except when it's *really* convenient ;-) - switches and outlets in bizarre locations - great numbers of junction boxes without outlets or lamps - junction boxes with great numbers of wires going into them - wiring that passes through a closet instead of a wall or - backwrapped grounding wires in the years since edison "invented" electricity, several different wiring "styles" have come and gone. when you buy an older home you may encounter some of this stuff. this section describes the old methods, and some of their idiosyncrasies. the oldest wiring system you're likely to encounter is called "knob and tube" (k&t). it is made up of individual conductors with a cloth insulation. the wires are run along side structural members (eg: joists or studs) using ceramic stand-offs (knobs). wire is run through structural members using ceramic tubes. connections were made by twisting the wire together, soldering, and wrapping with tape. since the hot and neutral were run separately, the wiring tends to be rather confusing. a neutral often runs down the centre of each room, with "taps" off to each fixture. the hot wire tended to run from one fixture to the next. in some cases k&t isn't colour-coded, so the neutral is often the same colour as the hot wires. you'll see k&t in homes built as late as the 40's. comments on k&t: - the people installing k&t were pretty paranoid about electricity, so the workmanship tends to be pretty good. - the wire, insulation and insulators tend to stand up very well. most k&t i've seen, for example, is in quite good condition. - no grounding. grounding is usually difficult to install. - boxes are small. receptacle replacement (particularly with gfci) can be difficult. no bushing on boxes either, so wiring changes need special attention to box entry. - sometimes the neutral isn't balanced very well between separately hot circuits, so it is sometimes possible to overload the neutral without exceeding the fusing on any circuit. - building code does not permit insulation in walls that contain k&t. - connection to existing k&t from new circuits can be tricky. consult your inspector. - modern wiring practise requires considerably more outlets to be installed than k&t systems did. since k&t tends to be in pretty decent condition it generally isn't necessary to replace it simply because it's k&t. what you should watch out for is renovations that have interfered with it and be cautious about circuit loading. in many cases it's perfectly reasonable to leave existing k&t alone, and add new fixtures on new circuits using modern techniques. after k&t, they invented multi-conductor cable. the first type you will see is roughly a cloth and varnish insulation. it looks much like the romex cable of the last decade or two. this stuff was used in the 40's and 50's. again, no grounding conductor. it was installed much like modern wiring. its major drawback is that this type of insulation embrittles. we've seen whole systems where the insulation would fracture and fall off at a touch. bx cable of the same vintage has similar problems. this stuff is very fragile, and becomes rather hazardous if the wires become bare. this wiring should be left untouched as much as possible - whenever an opportunity arises, replace it. a simple receptacle or switch replacement can turn into a several hour long frustrating fight with electrical tape or heat-shrink after this wiring technique, the more modern romex was invented. it's almost a asphalt impregnated cloth. often a bit sticky. this stuff stands up reasonably well and doesn't present a hazard and is reasonably easy to work with. it does not need to be replaced - it should be considered as safe as the "modern" stuff - thermoplastic insulation wire. just don't abuse it too much. try to find a proper electrical supply outlet near you. their prices will often be considerably better than chain hardware stores or diy centres, have better quality materials, have wider variety including the "odd" stuff, and have people behind the counter that know what you're talking about. cultivate friendly knowledgeable sales people. they'll give you much valuable information. chris lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; phone: canada 613 832-0541 psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca 
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 i really don't know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate. i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites. they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle. does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are?. i hear that they're called 'cooling towers' but what the heck do they cool? water. nuclear stations don't generate electricity directly from the reactor, they use the reactor to generate heat. the heat is then used to heat water just as in a conventional oil or coal station, and the resultant steam drives the turbines. the cooling towers are used to cool the steam and recondense it into water to continue the cycle steve mckinty sun microsystems icnc 38240 meylan, france email: smckinty@france.sun.com bix: smckinty 
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 : a quick and dirty way to get higher current carrying capacity : on pc board traces for one- or few-of-a-kind boards is to : strip some #14 romex house wiring cable to bare copper, form : the bare copper to follow the trace, and solder it down. and if it's not quick and dirty, you can get bus bars that are stamped out with leads that insert in the pc board. mark zenier markz@ssc.wa.com markz@ssc.com 
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 hi !!! is there somebody using a 56001 dsp from motorola ??? i am searching for programms concerning audio effects. i built a 4 channel mixer (4adc + 1dsp) for audio signals. i built some digital filters and echos, but now i want to include some effects like harmonic equalizer or chorus. the problem is, i dont know how these effects work (so i cant write a programm). so if someone has programms or just knows how such effects work, please contact me in the newsgroup or via e-mail. (also if there are books about this problem) thanks in advance (dwo) 
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<answer instance="sci.electronics53580" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 dear netters i want to send emg-signals from a running person to a computer. each signal is 4khz wide and there is up to 30 of them on each running person. the signal is only to be sent over a few hundred meters. it seems to me that the frequency intended for this use is about 150mhz and about 440mhz. to make the transmitters as light as possible i suppose it will be best the to send the signals in an analog form. as this application is rather specialized i do not expect to be able to buy the exact transmitter- units i need. on the other hand i imagine that i can buy the receiver somewhere. i need a multichannel (up to 30 channels) receiver or 30 complete receivers in some rack system where one can add as many receivers as needed in the particular case. do anybody know if there is existing such receiver system on the market? baldur@rsp.is (tf3bp) (please respond by email rather than nn) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53581">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53581" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 since an on-hook line is aprox 48-50v, and off-hook it usually drops below 10v. how about an led in series with a zener say around 30v. on-hook = led on off-hook = led off. would this work? if anyone tries/tried it, please let me know. not recommended. your circuit would take too much current, when telephone is on-hook. telephone company does not like it. tomi.engdahl@hut.fi ! lowery's law: then@niksula.hut.fi ! "if it jams - force it. if it breaks, ! it needed replacing anyway." * this text is provided "as is" without any express or implied warranty * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53583">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53583" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 howdy chaps has anybody got any pointers to good c, pascal, etc compilers for microcontrollers, shareware or otherwise ? my specific need is for 8051 c, but if the responses are many and varied i will post a summary. mike abbott mabbot@stellenbos.csir.co.za cape town mabbot@fred.csir.co.za south africa 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53585">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53585" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 off-shore assembly is one reason that adcom is able to make products that perform as well as those from people like audio research and van alstine (and better than hafler and forte'), but at a much lower cost. how do you spell "tuna helper" ? i gather by off-shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built by blue-fin tuna's who are into that squid-fi sound? (i agree on that one). my adcom 555 preamp did sound better after installing the famous "running the chips class "a" resistor mod", and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass,, too bad the factory could not make em sound better,, but better sound, unfortunately, does not appear to be a priority with adcom, else the mods would neither have been necessary, nor would they have improved what was already touted as superlative state-o-d-art le'sound. i really want to hear from all those people out there who have traded up from an sp9ii (even an sp3a!) to a gfp-555/etc., or maybe from those that have dumped their forte' amps for a gfa-555/etc.... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53589">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53589" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know what causes the ever-growing black border around the edges of my computer screen? the growth has been gradual so i don't know how long it's taken to get this bad. i have a 19" dec (?) color monitor, maybe five years old, and the black border is about 1.1 inches on the left and right sides, about 1.75 inches on the bottom and negligible at the top of the screen. the only controls are brightness knob, contrast knob, degauss switch, and power switch. is there anything to be done, or are the monitor's days numbered? larry hsu larryhsu@mtl.mit.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53590">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53590" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 1) output offset: obtain the service manual for the oscilloscope and adjust the internal output offset contorl. there is virtual certainty that there is an internal ajustment for the offset control's zero detent position. 2) verify that the function generator is properly loaded. many generators expect you to supply a 50 ohm load. go to a hamfest flea market and scrounge around for a pass-through 50 ohm terminator that has a male and female bnc (or whatever) connector on it. the calibrator on my tektronix scope is designed to put out .4v into a 1 meg load, but .1 volt into a 50 ohm load. you may also find that loading the output of the function generator also reduces the harmonic distortion. build an attenuator. you don't have to use (and i wouldn't want to use) the input impedance of the device under test as part of the voltage divider to drop the input test voltage. consider this: ------10k--------+---------? ohm ---- gen 50 ohm d.u.t. (loaded) | think about the ratio of 50/10k and then think about the accuracy to which you can read voltages on your oscilloscope. you can virtually discount the loading of the d.u.t. also you have the millivolt test generator you want. good luck, bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53592">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53592" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 just to complete that thought, the cooling towers cool water that circulates through heat exchangers that recondense the turbine exhaust back into feedwater for the heat exchangers that transfer energy from the reactor's cooling circuit. |---------------| |------turbine, etc---| |---------| reactor < < < > . | > > > > c. t. the reactor has a closed loop circuit to prevent radioactive contamination of the the turbine feedwater. the cooling tower is a separate circuit to avoide contamination of the turbine feedwater with atmospheric contamininats, etc. purifying boiler feedwater is important business at both fossil fired and nuclear generation facilities. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53593">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53593" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for carbon-doped rubber. or an highly elastic material that changes its resistivity, or some other electrical property when streched. if you could email me any info you may have on material names or companies that make the stuff it would be highly appreaciated. biomedical engineering louisiana tech university 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53594">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53594" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 great, the first advantage of cheap coax, i've ever heard. cheers robert (hb9nby) robert ganter /------------\ universitaet basel | i am a fan | institut fuer informatik | of my plan | basel/switzerland \------------/ ganter@ifi.unibas.ch amateurradio: hb9nby packet: hb9nby@hb9eas.che.eu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53595">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53595" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i really don't know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate. i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites. they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle. does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are?. i hear that they're called 'cooling towers' but what the heck do they cool? i hope someone can help this is definitely the wrong newsgroup for this, but never mind. any machine powered by heat (motor, steam- or gasturbine, steamengine, thermoelement,etc) work the better, the bigger the temperature difference between input and output is. because you never get all thermic energy out of the powering medium (steam, burning gaz, etc), you have to eliminate the rest of the energy to keep the efficency high. a thermal electric power plant (coal, oil or atomic power) works just the same way. you heat water (steam) to power the turbine and generators. because you don't get the whole energy out of the steam (efficency is never 100%) you have to cool down this steam again by something else. most power plants use cooling towers for this purpose (some type of mega-refrigerator...). others use water of a river (ecologically not unobjectionable). got it ? cheers robert (hb9nby) robert ganter /------------\ universitaet basel | i am a fan | institut fuer informatik | of my plan | basel/switzerland \------------/ ganter@ifi.unibas.ch amateurradio: hb9nby packet: hb9nby@hb9eas.che.eu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53597">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53597" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 help !! - i'm looking for a isa driver card and driver software for a logical devices husky programmer (it aint mush good without these) can anyone help with either of these items ? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53598">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53598" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 one thing to consider is time division multiplexing the emg channels to reduce the number of rf carriers you have to generate. if you multiplexed the emg inputs at 10khz, that would probably be sufficient for most physiology studies (you'd have ~ 330 hz per channel sampling rate.) that level of analog multiplexing should be rather easy to accomplish. combining a lot of rf carriers is pretty tricky to do without generating intermodulation. a system to be carried by a runner is in a fairly harsh environment and would probably be difficult to keep balanced. a commercial hand-held transciever could probably be employed with a little modification to accomodate widening the bandwidth. obviously, this has to be done in accordance with whatever laws govern the use of transeivers in your location. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53600">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53600" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 so.. here's my question. it seems to me that i'd have the same electrical circuit if i hooked the jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new 'three prong' grounding outlets. what's wrong with my reasoning here? what you can do if you want three-prong outlets without additional wiring is to use a gfci outlet (or breaker, but the outlet will be cheaper). in fact, depending on where you are putting your new outlet(s), a gfci may be *required*. you still need to supply a proper ground for a ground fault circuit interrupter! so rewiring is still a part of this job, however, the ground may be connected to a local earth ground, rather than back at the breaker box. as jamie said, gfci devices are required by code in a number of places, most notably: bathrooms, and outside the house. i do suggest the use of gfci outlets, rather than the breakers. you will end up with much less headaches. noise pickup in long cable runs is sometimes enough to cause frequent tripping of the breakers. gfci devices do save lives, if you decide to install them, be sure to check them regularly (using the test button). running the family business (electrical supplies and lighting) for many years, i have seen too many seasoned electricians fried, because they forgot to double check their common sense list. please exercise caution. gary gendel vice president: current consulting assignment: genashor corp mentor graphics corporation 9 piney woods drive 15 independence boulevard belle mead, nj 08502 warren, nj 07059 phone: (908) 281-0164 phone: (908) 604-0883 fax: (908) 281-9607 email: garyg@warren.mentorg.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53607">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53607" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 we have a setup with with 13 polaroid transducers and rangefinders. we would like to fire these three at a time with about 5 ms between firings. the three that are being fired do not fire in the same to further explain the situation, assume we are firing sonars a,b,c 5 ms apart each other. we should normally see an echo on a that corresponds to the distance. however, sonar a detects the init line of sonar b! the detection is actually through the transducer of sonar a; we can see a very faint 50khz signal on the transducer, exactly at the time the init line of sonar b is activated. we feel that there is some ground coupling that is causing this interference. we came to this conclusion since we are using a separate power supply for sonars b and c. has anyone else had any problems with these particular units and this type of experience? your suggestions for remedies will be greatly caglan m. aras [] aras@eceris.ece.ncsu.edu ece department [] ph: 919-515-5405 north carolina state university[] fx: 919-515-5523 raleigh, nc 27695 [] 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53609">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53609" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 sorry if this isn't the correct news group . . . but . . . a colleague of mine is trying to find out when the first public use of electronic voice amplification was . . . i.e. a p-a system. any reference would be appreciated. please reply via e-mail. mitch kazel (n9hdq) internet: kazel@uiuc.edu this is vague, so i am posting it in case anyone else knows more. i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification. compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup. the result was noisy and distinctly lo-fi, but much louder than a conventional phonograph. it tended to wear the disks out pretty quickly though. paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53618">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53618" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 you are experiencing what is called macrovision. it is the protection that they use on the video tapes. there are two ways around this that i know of. first of all, you can try using a different vcr to copy onto. it is the input of the vcr that reacts to the protection so sometimes just switching the two vcrs around will take care of it. some models just don't react to it. does this also affect the viewing of tapes ? i have had problems with a couple of rented tapes; they were virtually unviewable. i fiddled with the tuning, tracking and vertical hold but it was no good. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53621">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53621" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 let me try sending this message again, i botched up the margins the first time; *sorry* 'bout that :) does anyone out there know of any products using motorola's neuron(r) chips mc143150 or mc143120. if so, what are they and are they utilizing standard network variable types (snvt)? ted van den heuvel heuvel@neptune.iex.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53623">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53623" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for suppliers of 900mhz spread spectrum radio modules. i need to implement a two-way audio band link (essentially the guts of a cordless 900mhz phone is what i want.) this isn't exactly audio, but take a look in "rf design" magazine, april 93, for the article "a robust signaling technique for part 15 rf control netowrk applications." page 29. sources of parts are mentioned; in the same issue is an article that features a chipset for the digital european cordless telecommunications standard. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53624">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53624" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 so.. here's my question. it seems to me that i'd have the same electrical circuit if i hooked a jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new 'three prong' grounding outlets. what's wrong with my reasoning here? may i respectfully suggest you not do this?? the ground is supposed to be a protective ground, and though what you suggest looks good on paper, it's dangerous to rely on the same wire for power and protection. it'd never meet code, and if you now own the property and later sell it, you may end up with liabilities you don't want, and if you _don't_ now own it, well... there's a "wiring" faq that i think addresses this. i believe an alternative is use of a gfci, but i'm really not sure what current code allows in this area. the gfci senses alternate (unwanted) current paths, and doesn't rely on a specific protective ground wire, at least not beyond the gfci in the protected circuit. gfci breakers are available (but expensive). 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53628">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53628" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows of good software for antenna simulation, particularly in source form suitable for unix workstations (though good pc software would also be of interest). i'm aware of the numerous mininec mutations, and have been using mn for some time now. i'm primarily interested in hf, vhf, and low uhf (< 500 mhz) designs, mostly wire antennas, but for thick wires and mesh surfaces as well as for your basic thin wire assumption. is anything interesting happening with nec itself? i've seen a version that was mutilated to run (sort of) under microsoft fortran, but i'm not sure how many "new and improved" versions of the code might be out there i'd also be interested in non-nec derivatives. the ones i've seen have been aimed at microwave applications, but if there is something out there useful at the lower frequencies, i'd like to know about it. don rice e-mail: ddr@flux.isr.alaska.edu (internet) geophysical institute fnddr@alaska (bitnet) university of alaska flux::ddr (span) fairbanks, ak 99775 phone: (907) 474-7569 loran: 64.86n 212.16e 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53629">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53629" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for some help in choosing a package for a high-speed silicon adc (100mhz) currently being fabricated. this is a phd research project and i have to test the chip at speed on a pcb. i expect to have roughly 100 packaged circuits and will do dc, low-speed and high-speed testing using 3 different set-ups for the test chip. i know for sure that a dip will not work (the long lead lines have too high an inductance). getting a custom-made package is too expensive, so i am trying to choose between a flatpak and a leadless chip carrier. the flatpack would be hard to test since it has to be soldered on to the test setup and i would spend loads of time soldering as i kept changing the test chip. the leadless chip carrier sockets also have long lead lines and may not work at high speeds. does anyone out there have experience/knowledge of this field ? i would greatly appreciate help! any ideas/ names of companies manufacturing holders/sockets/packages would help. p.s. the multi-layer fancy gaas packages seem like a bit of overkill(?) --- seema varma you didn't mention whether or not cost is an issue. where exactly are you running 100mhz?? the digital side? ttl? ecl? we run 200mhz and 100mhz all over our ic test equipment all day long in the ecl domain, and we use dip's along with plcc's, 25mil and 20mil pitch 256pin qfp's to name a few. i don't see a problem in packaging as long as you adhere to sound engineering practices. a good source of information is motorola's mecl system design handbook. the latest ed. is dated 2/88. that is considered to be one of the *bibles* in high-speed design. the very fact that you need to build a test fixture means you're most likely going to need a socket. it in itself has far more inductance per pin than the package you are testing, not to mention any impedance discontinuities. i don't see the big concern over the packaging because it probably isn't going to make that much difference if you're trying to get ttl to run at 100mhz, have fun... ttl was never designed to run in a 100mhz environment. p.s. my opinions have nothing to do with my company...the standard disclaimer applies. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53633">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53633" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 at 50 miles, a conventional set of tv antennas on a pole (one aimed at each transmitter location) should work well. "rabbit ears" inside the house are probably not adequate. gadgets to plug into your house wiring are even worse. at vhf, you don't want a _big_ antenna, you want a _resonant_ :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53635">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53635" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've recently picked up some til311 display chips, but i can't find any information on them. it seems they are no longer made by ti, and i don't have an old enough data book. :-( it appears to have a dot-matrix led display capable of showing one hex digit. it is in a 14 pin dip package, but pins 6, 9, and 11 are not if you have any information on this part (pinout, power requirments, functions, ...) please send me e-mail. thank you, gary segal motorola inc. segal@oscar.rtsg.mot.com cellular infrastructure division --- we are standing here only to gaze at the wind --- 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53637">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53637" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 my friend has a nice alpine car stereo, and it only has 2 channels, but one of them does not work. it does not put out any current or voltage at all, is that channel therefore blown? i then shut the radio off and ran continuity into the two speaker ouputs of the channel, and it charged and discharged so i know the wires just aint bad.... this probably only tells you that the dc blocking capacitor that's in series between the one-chip, single-ended audio amp and the speaker terminal is there. any ideas? open it up and look for the power amp "ics". they'll be fairly obvious. replace the one connected to the dead output. how would i locate where the signal of the radio/tape unit is before it gets amplified, because then couldn't i hook up rca outputs to that signal so then he could just use a little amplifier? well, one thing you should do is poke around the terminals of the power amp chips. use a probe with a 10m resistor (like a scope probe) connected to the input of a small audio amp w/speaker. if you find line-level input to both chips, one of the chips is bad and can probably replaced pretty easily. if you want to pick off a near-line-level signal, suitable for feeding to an outboard amp, the outer legs of the volume control pot will often be good enough. this is *before* the volume control (and usually before the tone and balance controls too). if you take off from the center and ground legs of the volume pot, this will be after the volume control (but again, probably before the other controls). if the unit is a modern type with an electronic volume control chip, you should probably forget the whole thing. --- jamie hanrahan, kernel mode systems, san diego ca internet: jeh@cmkrnl.com uucp: uunet!cmkrnl!jeh cis: 74140,2055 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53638">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53638" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i keep finding these programmers in local junk shops. this may mean that they are indeed junk - but i'd like to hear from anyone else that may have met up with them. the basic device is a "data i/o 29a universal programmer", and the usual pod is a "logicpak 303a-vo4" with a "303a-001" programming tester/ adapter. i'd really like to hear from anyone who knows whether these monsters are worth bothering with. all i want to do is blast palce22v10s. - ideas, folks 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53640">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53640" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 getting a custom-made package is too expensive, so i am trying to choose between a flatpak and a leadless chip carrier. the flatpack would be hard to test since it has to be soldered on to the test setup and i would spend loads of time soldering as i kept changing the test chip. the leadless chip carrier sockets also have long lead lines and may not work at high speeds. does anyone out there have experience/knowledge of this field ? i would greatly appreciate help! any ideas/ names of companies manufacturing holders/sockets/packages would help. check with kyocera america, inc. 24 prime park way, suite 150 natick, ma 01760 they are one of the largest manufacturers of ic packaging in the it sounds like you would be a good candidate for wafer probing or at least ic probing to test performance. hp, cascade microtech and tektronix should be able to help you here. one note, testing at high frequency accurately can be an *expensive* business. andrew karanicolas mit microsystems technology laboratory ankleand@mtl.mit.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53643">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53643" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi there, i have a friend who'd like to get a hold of a bunch of those simple voice recognition chips that radio shack used to sell (and no longer does). if anybody knows of a source for these, please e-mail me. i'll forward the responses to him. thanks! ---joel kolstad 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53647">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53647" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just installed a motorola xc68882rc50 fpu in an amiga a2630 board (25 mhz 68030 + 68882 with capability to clock the fpu separately). previously a mc68882rc25 was installed and everything was working perfectly. now the systems displays a yellow screen (indicating a exception) when it check for the presence/type of fpu. when i reinstall an mc68882rc25 the system works fine, but with the xc68882 even at 25 mhz it does not work. the designer of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data_strobe (470 ohm) might help, but that didn't change anything. does anybody have some suggestions what i could do? does this look like a cpu-fpu communications problem or is the particular chip dead (it is a pull, not new)? moreover, the place i bought it from is sending me an xc68882rc33. i thought that the 68882rc33 were labeled mc not xc (for not finalized mask design). are there any mc68882rc33? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53648">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53648" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 allmichael covingtontelephone on hook/off hok mc>from: mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (michael covington) mc>organization: ai programs, university of georgia, athens mc>aye, there's the rub -- if you draw enough current to light an led, th mc>equipment at the phone company will think you've gone off hook. mc>in the on-hook state you're not supposed to draw current. ok lets have some calculation here: going by australian standards, which i presume might be similar to other countries ( if not, lets have some input) a phone uses 600ohm to loop a 48v line = 80ma. a standard led drains 20ma. so what is the actual loop current required for an "off hook" indication, do you know? peter t. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53649">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53649" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 alltall cool onewhat's a good ic for rs23 tc>from: rky57514@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (tall cool one ) tc>organization: university of illinois at urbana tc>i'm looking for an ic that will convert rs232 voltage levels to ttl vo tc>levels. something relatively inexpensive would be nice, too. anyone tc>a suggestion?? thanks. try a maxim "max232cpe" 8 pin dil, converts 5v to 12v for 232commms. what a clever little gizmo! peter t. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53651">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53651" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 allmartin mccormickwhat's exactly in a flour mm>from: martin@datacomm.ucc.okstate.edu (martin mccormick) mm>organization: oklahoma state university, stillwater, ok mm> what sort of lamp is the little glass bulb found inside the mm>it sort of reminds me of a ne2 neon lamp. starters appear open when m mm>with an ohm meter so the little lamp is either a neon or has a capacit mm>in series with it. mm> mm> i have seen these things all my life, but never read a really good mm>description of what is happening inside that little can. do you know what a bi-metallic strip is? just in case: it is two strips of different metals bonded together, which when heated bend to one side (check out the blinker globe in your christmas tree lights). so when you turn on the power, this causes the bulb to work like a neon, heating up and shorting out, thus providing a loop to power the heaters in the main tube. when the tube fires, insufficient current runs through the starter to keep the heat up and the bi-metalic strip straightens out (o/c). btw, i too thought that they were nothing more than a small neon, so one day when the neon in my sisters digital (flip the metal squares type) clock broke (flimsy leads), i replaced it with one from a starter. well powering up made a bit of a mess of the clock! peter t. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53652">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53652" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 allmartin emdedmm advice needed me>from: mce5921@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (martin emde) me>organization: boeing me> me>i an currely in the market for a dmm and recently saw an add me>for a kelvin 94 ($199). does anyone own one of these or some me>other brand that they are extremely happy with. how do the me>small name brands compare with the fluke and beckman brands? me>i am willing to spend ~$200 for one. me> me>any help is greatly appreciated. (please email) me> me>-martin if you are going to use one where it counts (eg:aviation, space scuttle, etc) then i suggest you go and buy a fluke (never seen a beckman), however for every other use you can buy a cheapie. i have a metex which is some made up name, as i have seen the same dmm with other brand names on it, i bought it about 4 yrs ago for aus$125.00 (convert that to us and you see that it's definetly a cheapie.) so far it has proved to be accurate, taken moderate abuse, and has many features on it (cap, freq,transistor check, etc). i am very happy with it and would definetly not buy a fluke just for the name. hope this helps. peter t. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53654">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53654" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 mc>aye, there's the rub -- if you draw enough current to light an led, th mc>equipment at the phone company will think you've gone off hook. mc>in the on-hook state you're not supposed to draw current. ok lets have some calculation here: going by australian standards, which i presume might be similar to other countries ( if not, lets have some input) a phone uses 600ohm to loop a 48v line = 80ma. a standard led drains 20ma. so what is the actual loop current required for an "off hook" indication, do you know? up to 60 microamperes = on hook over something like 10 ma = off hook in between = defective line, and the phone company comes looking for leaky insulation. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53655">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53655" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 intel also makes some neat memory and peripheral chips: old technology (early 1980's) 8155 ram plus io (slow ram as i recall) 8755 eprom plus io (expensive and slow) intel does make eproms with built in address latches. i fear that you would need a very flexible and up-to-date eprom programmer to write to them. give them a call. i am not able to locate their memory products book sigh... now, who borrowed it... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53656">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53656" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 an now-deceased prof told us willing students about a project he had worked on during wwii. they needed a mega-power pa with very clear audio quality. the purpose was to bellow at refugees from aircraft. their solution was a giant compressed-air source, and a horn with parallel shutters worked by a small audio system. i think he said it worked very well, thus the war dept. cancelled the project ;_}. gee, i got the idea from somewhere that devices like this were in common use in wwii, so that commanders on board ships could bellow at the troops landing on a beach, for example. which reminds me of an anecdote from the mid-60s. at a communications conference a marine corps communications officer said he didn't care much for all the spread-spectrum multi-access expensive communication systems that people were talking about at the time; what he wanted was a kilowatt broadcast transmitter on the ship and a $4.95 japanese transistor radio stuck in the ear of every marine hitting the beach. haynes@cats.ucsc.edu haynes@cats.bitnet "ya can talk all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!" "no it aint! but ya gotta know the territory!" meredith willson: "the music man" 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53657">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53657" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 this is vague, so i am posting it in case anyone else knows more. i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification. compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup. the result was noisy and distinctly lo-fi, but much louder nasa and related agencies apparently used this same principles to create the loudest reported reproduced sound. they used an "analog" electrically controlled valve to control the flow of air across a horn throat. if i remember correctly it was called a "modulated air blast transducer". there were reports of the thing being able to produce 106 db @ 80 hz @ 10 mile distance, communicate directly with fighter pilots @ 5000 ft, etc. waters,clyde gordon-bme '93-georgia institute of technology atlanta ga. "out of the mountain of despair, we can hew the stone of hope"- mlk jr. uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0869a internet: gt0869a@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53659">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53659" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if my life depended on it, i'd say that it's a scope that uses long-persistance phosphor to keep the successive taces on the screen for some unit of time - "store" them. do i get to live? we'll let you live, but just this once.... there's more to a real "storage" scope than just a long-persistence phosphor. actually, the phosphor isn't usually anything special at all; what makes a storage tube work is a screen placed just *behind* the phosphor, which becomes charged as the electron beam intially "writes" the trace. with the trace now written to the screen, a separate low-level "flood" electron gun keeps the image lit by exciting those areas of phosphor which are next to the "written" areas on the storage screen. there are some problems with this - the resolution is limited compared to a non-storage tube, and the stored trace tends to "bloom" with time. of course, this is pretty much obsolete technology, done in by the current digital scopes which use raster-scan displays and keep everything in a frame-buffer memory anyways. / filip "i'll buy a vowel" gieszczykiewicz. | best e-mail "fmgst+@pitt.edu" \ ah, yes - from the same people who brought you that amazing new reading program that's sweeping eastern europe: "hooked on consonants!" :-) bob myers kc0ew hewlett-packard co. |opinions expressed here are not systems technology div. |those of my employer or any other myers@fc.hp.com fort collins, colorado |sentient life-form on this planet. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53666">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53666" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've also found that the electronic starters on these "instant-on" compact fluourescent lamp fixtures kick out interference that nukes my cordless phone. (i can hear it in my guitar amplifier, too...) paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens . 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53667">
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 this is a followup post to something i've written previously. several people responded with good information, but i don't think i communicated exactly what i am looking for. i'm working on a custom i/o device that will communicate with a host via rs-232. my custom circuitry will use an 80c186eb or ec cpu and require about 64k of ram (preferably flash ram). in looking around, i see that lots of people have engineered uart-cpu-rom-ram subsystems that are ready to be interfaced to your custom i/o devices. it's been done so much, that it would be best if i can avoid reinventing a system. it just needs to use an 80c186 (or 188) cpu, and be able to load a program from the host then transfer control to that program. well, there's one other thing the rom needs to know how to do. it should have routines to send and receive bytes to/from the host, that utilize the hardware control lines (dtr,rts,dts,cts). everything i've seen is in the $200.00 and up range. that's too much for this application. i need something around $100.00. the cpu has the uart built-in, so you're only looking at a few chips. does anyone know a company that markets a good board in this range, or some public domain circuitry i can use? thanks in advance for the info. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53671">
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 hi: i'd like to know how much the foll. equipment will fetch in the used equipment market (without manuals or other accessories): 1. tektronix 2465 scope 2. tektronix 2465a scope 3. tektronix 1240 logic analyser thanks much for your help. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53673">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53673" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 my monitor display has a bad case of the wigglies. i have a good ground. i live in an old house and i have replaced much of the wiring. i have two emi filters on the computer, the monitor plugs into the computer. when fluorescent lights are on upstairs, the display jiggles, when motors run in the house, the display jiggles, when incandescent lights are on in the kitchen the display jiggles. i could bring a separate line from the breaker box, and use it only for the computer, would this do it? emi doesn't only travel the 110 volt line though. should i shield the back of the monitor? ground a grid or plate? your expertise is appreciated. thanks very much! ed byrnes | ed byrnes fax: 313-651-7392 eabyrnes@vela.acs.oakland.edu | | kensington academy & oakland university rochester, mi north america | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53675">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53675" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to experiment with the intel 8051 family. does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers, assemblers, etc.? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53676">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53676" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a fujitsu m2322k which has been removed (i believe) from a digital x-ray machine (takes x-ray pictures without film). the fujitsu part number is b03b-4745-b002a. i have obtained some data on the device, it is 8-inch winchester-type of 168 megabyte capacity (though i was told it was over 800 megabytes). however, there is very little information on the interface standard used. it appears to use two balanced-line connections, but what each connection corresponds to i know not. one connection is a 30-way idc, the other a 60-way idc. if anyone has any information on this device, i would be most grateful if you could provide it. chris powell. | the man from : ##### ####### | janet : cjp1@uk.ac.aber | | # # _# | internet : cjp1@aber.ac.uk | | # # _# | nyx : cpowell@nyx.cs.du.edu | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53677">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53677" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 radio shack has canceled their "battery of the month" club. does anyone know why? they say they'll honor existing cards in customer hands, but no new cards will be issued. i was told that this is an environmental based move. i was also told that there will be 'somthing' else to replace the battery club. like maybe the 360k floppy club ;-). we'll see .... * bill quinn billq@ms.uky.edu * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53678">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53678" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 how hard would it be to somehow interface them to some of the popular motorola microcontrollers. not hard, you can do the refreshing and access cycles by software, but this hogs most of the available cpu cycles on a low-end controller. i've seen some application note from philips that used one of their 8051 derivatives as a printer buffer, with up to 1mb of dynamic ram that was accessed and refreshed with software bit-banging. another alternative would be to use one of those nice dram controller chips that "create static ram appearance" and all that, but they may be too expensive to make it worthwhile. segmented memory helps structure software 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53679">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53679" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 can circuits found in electronics magazines (with no patent disclaimer) be used legally as subcircuits of a commercial unit ? there are two issues here: copyright and patent. the magazine article's contents are copyrighted, and may not be reproduced, translated, etc., without the copyright holder's permission. however, this does not cover the *ideas* expressed, only the form of expression. copying their circuit diagram or pc-board pattern is copyright infringement. but it's unlikely that they could stretch copyright far enough to claim that the circuit design itself is copyrighted. so long as you draw your own diagrams and lay out your own boards, copyright shouldn't be an issue. patents are different. the author does *not* have to give you any warning that the design is covered by patent (although it would be sensible for him to do so). in fact, it's possible that *he* was infringing on someone else's patent without realizing it. ignorance of the patented status is not a defence against infringement, although it might reduce the damages a court would award. however... unless there was something seriously novel about the circuit, almost certainly it is "obvious to one skilled in the art" and therefore unpatentable. routine engineering is not patentable; patents (in theory) cover only inventions, ideas that are genuinely new. caution: i am not a lawyer. consulting a professional would be wise if significant amounts of money are at stake. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53680">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53680" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ... patent law says you can build anything you want to, for your own personal noncommercial use... i'm not up on the details of us patent law, but i think this is incorrect. there is a "reasonable use" exemption for *copyright*. there is none for *patents*. the exemptions from patent licensing are quite narrow; r&d work is exempt but personal use is not. that is, it's okay to experiment with a patented idea, but not to put it to practical use (e.g. to improve your stereo), even if it's only your own private practical use. of course, it is unlikely that discreet personal use will ever be detected or that you will ever be sued over it. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53682">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53682" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could some kind soul post me the max power/voltage/current ratings of 2sc1096 and 2sa634 transistors, their conductance types and pinouts. they are used in the sweep portion of a tv set. maximum ratings: vcbo = 40v vceo = 30v ic = 3a pc = 10w (t=25c) icbo max = 1ua vcb = 30v cob = 55pf at q-point vce=5, ic=1a --> hfe = 100 maximum ratings: vcbo = -40v vceo = -30v ic = -3a pc = 10w (t=25c) icbo max = -1ua vcb = -30v cob = 75pf at q-point vce = -5v, ic = -1a --> hfe = 100 that's all i can get from my data book, hope that helps. suwanto@iastate.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53683">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53683" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 how hard would it be to somehow interface them to some of the popular motorola microcontrollers. i am a novice at microcontrollers, but i am starting to get into them for some of my projects. i have several 256k simms laying around from upgraded macs and if i could use them as "free" memory in one or two of my projects that would be great. one project that comes to mind is a caller id device that would require quite a bit of ram to store several hundered cid records etc... assuming 68hc11... in expanded muxed mode, you *could* do it. much easier if you get a dram controller ic. the mmi 673102 could be used to implement this, or you could use a counter and a huge multiplexer to provide row/column/refresh address multiplexing. the thing with drams is that they require wierd timing, address multiplexing, and refresh. actually, if you wanted to use a 68008 ic, you could look at an897, which has a neat controller built in. there is also the 683xx, i think one of those has the dram controller built in. this one is for the 6664 dram, however, the 41256 has only one more address line, adding only another component or so. the 256k simms are basically 8 or 9 41256 dram chips (or their equivalent in fewer packages). it *can* be done, just takes a bit of logic design. i'm actually about to do it using a 65c02p3 chip... i've got 8 256k simms... that's 2 megabytes on my apple //e... (used to be in my '386). 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53685">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53685" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 so when you turn on the power, this causes the bulb to work like a neon, heating up and shorting out, thus providing a loop to power the heaters in the main tube. when the tube fires, insufficient current runs through the starter to keep the heat up and the bi-metalic strip straightens out (o/c). imprecise. this description 1. ignores the role of the ballast, 2. misrepresents the heating effects in the starter. the bimetalic strip cools down immediately after the contacts short circuit, because the neon discharge stops, and much less heat is generated from the i^2r loss in the metal as compared to the neon discharge. the starter contacts open before the tube fires. actually, the tube fires as a result of the back-emf generated in the ballast because of this immediate opening of the starter's contacts. a capacitor is connected in parallel with the contacts to prevent excessive arcing during the firing. the neon reionizes but does not draw sufficient current to prevent firing of the tube itself. mustafa kocaturk mustafa@seas.smu.edu ee dept., room 305a, caruth bldg. home: 214-706-5954 office: 214-768-1475 smu box 753190, dallas, tx 75275 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53686">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53686" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ok, what's a quick rundown on all the 7400 series variations? we're repairing something with a 74act00 on it and the question arises, "well, do i really need the act part?" flipping through digi-key i see als, as, c, hc, ac, acq, act, hct, acht, hctls... here's something i posted about this a few years ago. it's not fully up to date with all the new variations (some of which are just different manufacturer's synonyms): in practical terms, ignoring the technological details, this is my view of the families (nb i am not a giant corporation, which influences my views on things like availability and backward compatibility): 74 the original. speed good, power consumption fair. effectively obsolete now; use 74ls or later, except for a *very* few oddball functions like 7407 which are hard to find in newer families. 74h modification of 74 for higher speed, at the cost of higher power consumption. very obsolete; use 74f. 74l modification of 74 for lower power, at the cost of lower speed. very obsolete; use cmos. 74s later modification of 74 for even higher speed, at some cost in power consumption. effectively obsolete; use 74f. 74ls combination of 74l and 74s, for speed comparable to 74 with lower power consumption. best all-round ttl now, widest variety of 74f fast as blazes, power not too bad. the clear choice for high speed in ttl. availability and prices generally good. 74as failed competitor to 74f, although a few 74as parts do things that are hard to find in 74f and thus are still useful. 74als possible replacement for 74ls. generally souped up. still fairly new, availability and prices possibly a problem. 74c fairly old family, cmos devices with ttl pinouts. competed with 4000 series, not too successfully. obsolete; use 4000 or newer cmos 74 families. 4000 (thrown in as the major non-74 non-ecl logic family.) the old cmos family, still viable because of *very* wide range of devices, low power consumption, and wide range of supply voltages. not fast. very forgiving and easy to work with (beware static electricity, but that comment applies to many other modern logic families too). there are neat devices in this family that exist in no other. the clear choice when speed is not important. 74hc a new attempt at 74-pinout cmos. fast compared to old cmos, power consumption often lower than ttl. possibly a good choice for general-purpose logic, assuming availability and affordability. cmos logic levels, *not* ttl ones. beware very limited range of supply voltages compared to older cmos, also major rise of power consumption at faster speeds. 74hct 74hc with ttl logic levels. much the same comments as 74hc. read the fine print on things like power consumption -- ttl compatibility in cmos involves some compromises. 10k (thrown in for speed freaks.) the low end of ecl. various sources claim that it is *easier* to work with than super-fast ttl for serious high-speed work. less forgiving, though: read and follow the rules or it won't work. availability to hobbyists limited, can be expensive. 100k (for real speed freaks.) hot ecl. harder to handle than 10k, and inconvenient packages. much more useful datasheets, however. as for compatibility between families: the 74 families (except 74c and 74hc) are all more or less logic-level compatible, but how many 74x devices you can drive from one 74y output varies enormously with x and y. you just have to read the specs and do the arithmetic. 74c and 74hc are compatible with the others with a bit of hassle. 4000 compatibility can be a bit of hassle or a lot of hassle depending on what supply voltage 4000 is using. 10k or 100k to anything else is considerable hassle. me? i use 4000 and 74ls with a sprinkling of 74f. 74hc[t] and 10k are interesting but i haven't used either significantly yet. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53687">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53687" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites. they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle. does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are?. i hear that they're called 'cooling towers' but what the heck do they cool? i hope someone can help the actual hourglass is hollow and is designed to generate a draft, exploiting the venturi effect. around the base of the hourglass is a ring of water towers. warm river water, coming from the steam condenser in the plant, is sprayed over louvres. the draft being pulled through the tower cools the water by both evaporation and convection. the sensible heat extracted from the cooling water is the driving force for draft generation. it should be noted that the hourglass-shaped cooling towers are used on both fossile and nuclear plants. it should also be noted that at locations where water is plentiful, the cooling towers are only used part time, when the discharge temperature would exceed some release limit. it was once thought that the warm discharge water was damaging to fish. fishermen know that is thoroughly incorrect. nontheless, stringent, usually state, regulations remain in some instances. since it typically takes 60,000 hp worth of pumping to move the volume of water needed to cool a 1000 mwe plant, the cost of using the towers is not insignificant. john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53688">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53688" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 you are experiencing what is called macrovision. it is the protection that they use on the video tapes. there are two ways around this that i know of. first of all, you can try using a different vcr to copy onto. it is the input of the vcr that reacts to the protection so sometimes just switching the two vcrs around will take care of it. some models just don't react to it. does this also affect the viewing of tapes ? i have had problems with a couple of rented tapes; they were virtually unviewable. i fiddled with the tuning, tracking and vertical hold but it was no good. it sounds like your tv is one of the ones that also reacts to the video protection. (poor you!) the macroscrubber from radio electronics removes the protection so you souldn't have any more problems. however, if you use the method of copying it from one vcr to another where the second vcr doesn't react to the protection, you will end up with a duplicate tape, including the one thought comes to mind about your problem... when playing the tape for viewing, are you feeding the signal from the source vcr through an extra device before going to the tv? if you feed it through a second vcr first, that is your problem. as to other devices such as converters, i don't know if they would react or not. just to be safe, you might want to make sure that you have nothing between the vcr and tv. victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca the inquiring mind bbs, winnipeg, manitoba 204 488-1607 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53690">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53690" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 {michael fulbright} said "analog switches/balanced" to <all> on 04-15-93 01:08 mf> i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i've hit a snag. mf> in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an mf> op amp amplifier from 1 to -1, controlable via a digital input. mf> the most obvious way i've come up with is to use analog switches mf> to adjust the gain of the op amp. the only analog switch i have mf> experience with it the 4066. unfortunately i want to switch an mf> ac signal which goes from about -5v to 5v, and the 4066 is only mf> for positive signals. how about using a 4053 it has a seperate ground for the analog outputs. it would get you 3 bits. mf> another part which caught my eye was the analog devices ad630. this mf> is a balanced demodulator which appears to fill exactly the need i mf> have. the data sheet was somewhat skimpy on application notes. could mf> someone comment on using this chip for the following application? or how about a multiplying d/a convertor? this is essentiallty what you are makeing. stephen cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us mangled on fri 04-16-1993 at 13:36:11 ... catch the blue wave! * blue wave/qwk v2.12 * 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53691">
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 im designing a circuit with just a silicon diode. i dont need to modify any of the parameters. but the problem will not accept the following .model diode d the pspice book i have is terrible. i would appreciate any help. neil gandler gandler electronics home automation & electronic design technology 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53692">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53692" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone has a table about the size of the wire to the amount of current it can carry. probably in the 1-15amp range. my friend is interested in converting a mazda into an electric car. needed information for estimation. thanks in advance. p.s. any info on electric will be greatly appreaciated. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53694">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53694" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 others said: # > actually, fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual # >boiling-water reactor nuclear plants. (there's a gripe in the industry # >that nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology). so it's # >more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system # >as cold as possible. hence big cooling towers. when the utility gave up on that cinnci, oh plant (zimmer?) and announced they were going to convert it to a coal-fired scheme, the turbines were already in place, and they were the low-temp type. so the plan was: install a second set of high temp turbines, and feed the low-temp ones with the output of the new ones. never saw anything more on this. did they ever really build it? a host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(301) 56-linux unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53695">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53695" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 others said: # 74s later modification of 74 for even higher speed, at some cost in # power consumption. effectively obsolete; use 74f. # 74ls combination of 74l and 74s, for speed comparable to 74 with lower # power consumption. best all-round ttl now, widest variety of # devices. # 74f fast as blazes, power not too bad. the clear choice for high # speed in ttl. availability and prices generally good. i hate to disagree w/ a fellow as smart as henry, but... a few years back, i worked on a project using lots of high-speed stuff. (my part was slow & parallel, whew.) the mild-mannered designer working on the fast (serial) stuff cussed & swore at 74f all the time. it was the harry reams of ttl. one ultra-tiny power line glitch, one hickup, one eyeblink across the board, and bang - the f had toggled/counted/whatevered. at times he swore it would count even without any 5 volt supply ;-} you can guess what the "f" stood for.... they would do anything to push s or work around it to avoid using f. i don't think i'd consider using f to replace s unless the consequences were *fully* understood....... a host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(301) 56-linux unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53696">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53696" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i recently bought an apparantly complete expansion chassis by mountain computer inc. it consists of a box with 8 apple ][+ compatible slots, powersupply brick, interface card and ribbon cable to attach it to the computer to be expanded. there was also included a small card with empty sockets on top and pins on the bottom that looks like it would plug into the ][+ motherboard somewhere after pulling a chip. there's an empty socket also on the interface card and a short 16-pin dip jumper like the ones used with ][+ language cards. this technological marvel came with no docs and i haven't a clue as how to hook this thing up. if anyone has docs and/or users disk of any sort for this i could really use copies of them or at least some help. i need to know: o how to orient the ribbon cable between the card and the chassis. o how to attach the short cable from the motherboard to the card and if the small card is used. o the purposes of the various jumper-pins on the card (it has more of those than my cms scsi card!) thanks john daniels ah499@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53698">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53698" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 where can i buy or build a device that will convert 20 ma current loop signals to rs232 voltages? i know some old terminals came with that option, but none of the ones i own have that. anyway, i want to connect a computer to this old industrial computer to use the computer with communications software as a console instead of an old decwriter. please e-mail me if you have any info that would point me in the right direction. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53699">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53699" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 during the nuclear fission reaction the uranium fuel can get hot enough to melt. when this happens the liquid uranium is pumped to the cooling tower where it is sprayed into the air. contact with the cool outside air will condense the mist and it will fall back to the cooling tower floor. there it is collected by a cleaning crew using shop vacs and is then reformed into pellets for reactor use the next day. cooling towers are a lot taller than they really need to be. power companies are forced to make them that tall by some enviromental law that requires the raw uranium emisions to be held to under 1%. this law is now under attack by lawyers arguing that the 1% should be measured at the edge of the property rather than the edge of the cooling tower. eliminating this law will save power companies thousands of dollars in concrete costs for new nukes. john eaton !hp-vcd!johne i think you posted your article 15 days too late :-)) april 1st is over. i don't like nuclear powerplants but i think it's not fair to tell such "storys" about them. ok ? let me try to explain what that tower is used to: -1st. even the modernst nuclear powerplant is only a simple steam-engine. it has an hightech "boiler" but the rest is still verry verry conventional. and if you've already visited any condensation- powerstation you'l have seen the cooling towers too. if you look at any good book about thermophysics you'll find a chapter about the "carnot-process" which describes how to get energy from a temperature difference ! and that is the reason for cooling towers too !!! you only can get energy if you've an temperature gradient. that means that you have steam on the one side and need to cool down the steam 'till you get water again on the other side if you want to get aprox. 30% of the energy you (or better the uranium) brought into the water to let it boil. if you only have hot steam on the one and "cold" steam on the other side you'll loose much more of the energy. and so they cool down the steam to get at least the 30% of energy that carnot will give them. the cooling towers are for cooling the steam ! the vapor you'll see is not the steam of the main core circulation, because that steam is radioactive ! the circulation is divided in at least 2 circuits connected about heat exchangers to prevent radioactive pollution of the environment ! -2nd. ok, the main core is hot, but even in the modernst hightemperature- reactors (htr) they only run at ~800 deg celsius. this is still verry far away from uraniums melting point which is somewhere around 2000 deg. celsius ! but you'll have lot's of problems with the boiler's steel. that's because at this temperature the metal is attacked by steam and will corrode verry fast. this is only for bwr's. the new he cooled reactors have temperatures up to 1200 deg. celsius. but this is only experimental. -3rd. i personaly think that nuclear waste should be as low as ever possible because the dose you get will accumulate about the years. today 1 mrem and next year 0.5 mrem won't be 0.75 mrem at all. it accumulates and even in 80 years you'll still have 1.5 mrem. and i'm not interested in glowing in the night and getting children with 2 heads. this is my point of view. only my 0.02$ ! christian reisel student of electronic sciences christian reisel, goldammerweg 2, w-6601 buebingen, germany voice +49 6805 22179 fax & email +49 6805 22179 pgp pubkey: begin 777 pcr.pub mf5l`p`"s*q%296es96pl($-h<fes=&ea;ox!p7r5'f0qy1q_.=+sy(;dz0l:6 mmo(]]0`=k?/vh[u-"6mx]7g\-mf]/;&`h5kl/%,m\$:89^5fi6;w:$t$;9m!q $+04`$0`=@ 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53700">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53700" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need to reduce the speed of a boxer fan by about 30-50%. i recall reading somewhere that the right capacitor in series will do it. if this isn't a case of brain fade, can someone suggest the cap value ? the specifics; it's a real boxer fan (tm). the label says 115 v, .2 amps. al dykes adykes@jpr.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53704">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53704" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings! situation: i have a phone jack mounted on a wall. i don't know the number of the line. and i don't want to call up the operator to place a trace on it. question: is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line? thanks for any response. there usually is a way, however, often, telephone companies like to keep all of their internal numbers private. depends on your exchange. any modern electronic switching equipment usually have voice synth lines that echo the number you called from. the line service guys use this to make sure they connect up the right pairs of lines. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53705">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53705" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hello again, i asked this a year ago, but i am still looking. i am getting sick of having to use a hc373 jeff, just use the damned 373. sure, there are oddball latched memory chips, but do you really want to use them? sorry if i'm pedantic but: design your circuit using reasonably available parts, and move on to more important we're looking at a series of chips by wsi, the psd3xx series. they have _mega_ address decoding logic on them, various rom sizes (upto 1mbit), various ram sizes (upto 16 k), and 19 i/o ports which can be chip select lines, i/o or the buffered address lines. cute chip, 44 pin plcc package. second sourcing may be a problem though :-( bryan ryan, vk3tkx melbourne, australia bryan@philips.oz.au 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53706">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53706" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 {jason haines} said "what to do with old 256k" to <all> on 04-15-93 04:38 jh> i was wondering if people had any good uses for old jh> 256k simms. i have a bunch of them for the apple mac jh> and i know lots of other people do to. i have tried to jh> sell them but have gotten no interest. how about collecting them all together (ie everyones) and selling them as a lot? the other thing is to give to a jh> so, if you have an inovative use (or want to buy jh> some simms 8-) ), i would be very interested in hearing jh> about it. if they are free and you can send them real cheap! i would be intrested in them. hehehe are these 2 chip or 8 chip devices what speed? jh> i have seen ram disc storage devices but they have been jh> very pricey (plus i am still a little worried about having data jh> stored on ram). why? do you use a ram disk? :) stephen cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us mangled on fri 04-16-1993 at 19:58:29 ... badgers... we don't need no steenking badgers! ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53710">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53710" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings! situation: i have a phone jack mounted on a wall. i don't know the number of the line. and i don't want to call up the operator to place a trace on it. question: is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line? thanks for any response. how about calling someone with the caller id service and have them call you back with the number? richard cook (519) 641-1985 e-mail: rcook@gfx.engga.uwo.ca elect. eng. fax (519) 661-3488 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53711">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53711" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : as the subject says - can i use a 4052 for digital signals? i don't see : why it couldn't handle digital signals, but i could be wrong. anyone have : any advice? thanks. the switches have a non-negligable on resistance (up to 1k ohm when powered by 5 volts) and a maximum current and a maximum static voltage across switch. not a good bet for ttl. should work for cmos, but slow things down a bit. there are 74hc versions that have better specs. but lower max voltage. mark zenier markz@ssc.wa.com markz@ssc.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53712">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53712" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : > this is not a new idea. at least 10 years ago i got this little gadget with : > a keyboard on the back and 8 led's in a vertical row on the front. it has a : > long handle and when you wave it in the air it "writes" the message you typed : > on the keyboard in the air. : this is not news. in fact it's where i got the idea from, since it was : such a neat item. mattell made it, i believe, modeled after a "space : saber" or "light sword" or something likewise theme-y. my addition was : using a motor for continuous display, and polar effects in addition to : character graphics. i should have protected it when i had the chance. : no one to kick but myself... : ten years ago is about right, since i built mine in '84 or '85. it's even older than that. i remember seeing a description of a garage operation selling them at some of the early computer faires in san francisco about 5 years before that. mark zenier markz@ssc.wa.com markz@ssc.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53713">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53713" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi there, i have a mac 512 with a burned out part which looks like a voltage regulator. the part number is bu 406 and i believe the vender is sgs thomas judging by teh sgs logo printed on the package. if anyone has teh spec for this part i would greatly appreciate an email with the import info so i can find a replacement. thanx in advance. dnewman@lynx.northeastern.edu btw i don't need people telling me to throw the computer away. if i had the money the thing would be in the trash in a second, but it does make a good terminal if nothing else. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53714">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53714" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the object of a cooling tower is to distribute dissolved salts in cooling water over large areas of farmland and to therefore decrease farm subsidies for non-producers by rendering their land infertile. a side effect of this deficit-reduction program is that they provide a low-t reservoir for a variety of industrial processes. now you know. john berryhill 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53715">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53715" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 just as a not of possible interest on this subject .. it is my understanding that exploding televisions were a major cause of domestic accidents in the soviet union in past years! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53721">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53721" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi netters! i am looking for the list of universities in austrailia, which has electronics department. i am considering to spend a year for research in austrailia about communication area.ýé i am interested in mobile communication areas and spread spectrum communications etc. but i don't have any information about austrailian universities. can anybody recommend a good university in coûßmmunic÷³ation area? any comments will be welcomed! jaehyung kim 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53722">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53722" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 great explaination, however you left off one detail, why do you always see them at nuclear plants, but not always at fossil fuel plants. at nuclear plants it is prefered to run the water closed cycle, whereas fossil fuel plants can in some cases get away with dumping the hot water. as i recall the water isn't as hot (thermodynamically) in many fossil fuel plants, and of course there is less danger of radioactive actually the reasons you don't see so many cooling towers at fossil plants are 1) fossil units (multiple units per plant) are generally smaller than nuclear plants. 300 mwe seemed to be a very popular size when many fossil plants were built. the average nuclear plant is 1000 mwe. 2) many fossil plants were grandfathered when water discharge regulations were adopted ("why those old dirt burners can't harm anything, let 'em go."). 3) powered draft cooling towers, low enough to the ground to be generally not visible from off-site, are quite popular with fossil plants. 4) fossil plants used to get much less regulatory attention than nuclears. actually, fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual boiling-water reactor nuclear plants. (there's a gripe in the industry that nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology). so it's more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system as cold as possible. hence big cooling towers. oil and gas fired steam plants also have condensers, but they usually are sized to get the steam back into hot water, not most of the way down to ambient. some plants do cool the condensers with water, rather than air; as one canadian official, asked about "thermal pollution" de-icing a river, said, "up here, we view heat as a resource". actually the condensing environment is essentially the same for plants of similar size. the issues are the same regardless of where the heat comes from. condensers are run at as high a vacuum as possible in order to reduce aerodynamic drag on the turbine. the condenser pressure is normally water's vapor pressure at the condensing temperature. it is desirable that the steam exhaust be free of water droplets because moisture in the steam causes severe erosion damage to the turbine low pressure blades and because entrained water moving at high velocity causes erosion of the condenser tubes. the coldest and thus lowest pressure condensing environment is always the best. a related issue is that of pumping the condensate from the hotwell (where the water ends up after dripping off the condenser tubes.) since the condenser is at a very low pressure, the only force driving the condensate into the hotwell pumps is gravity. if the condensate is too hot or the gravity head is too low, the condensate will reflash into steam bubbles and cause the condensate pumps to cavitate. this is a particularly destructive form of cavitation that is to be avoided at all the hotwell pumps are located in the lowest point in the plant in order to provide a gravity head to the pumps. how much lower they must be is a function of how hot the water is allowed to get in the hotwell. typically hotwell temperatures run between 100 and 120 degrees depending on the temperature of the river water (this term is used to describe the river grade water even when the cooling tower system is operating in closed loop mode and essentially no river water is pumped.) when the river water temperature is high in the summer, operators will typically allow the hotwell level to rise in order to provide more gravity head. there is a tradeoff involved since higher hotwell levels will encroach onto the condensing tubes and reduce the condenser area. at least in the east and elsewhere where moisture actually exists in the air :-), the river water will almost always be cooler than the discharge water from the cooling towers. the temperature of the discharge water from the cooling towers is set by the ambient air temperature and humidity. it is very rare in the east to hear of actual river water temperatures exceeding 70 degrees. a vast difference from the typical "95-95" days (95 degrees, 95% humidity) we see routinely in the east. it is not unusual, particularly where the econazis have been successful in clamping rigid discharge water temperature limits on a plant, for the plant to have to reduce the firing rate when the air temperature gets too high and the condenser cannot handle the heat load without excessive everybody runs closed-cycle boilers. the water used is purified of solids, which otherwise crud up the boiler plumbing when the water boils. purifying water for boiler use is a bigger job than cooling it, so the boiler water is recycled. true. actually secondary plant (the part that makes electricity and feeds feedwater to the boiler) water chemistry has been the bastard stepchild until recently and has not gotten the respect it deserves. the plant chemists have just in the past decade or so fully understood the costs of impure water. by "impure", i mean water with a few dozen extra micromho of conductivity and/or a few ppm of dissolved oxygen. secondary water is now typically the most pure one will find outside the laboratory. john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53723">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53723" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : and the measure of current, amp, is actually named after both the amp company : and the amphenol company. both companies revolutionized electronics by : simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets : were affected by the amount of current running through the wires. sorry. the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french-man named ampere who studied electrical current. the term amp is just an abbreviation of it. the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use. : the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers, thus : our use of the ohms... i don't know about this one, but it doesn't sound right. are you (two) joking? is the entire internet flaming you (two)? ahh!, now i remember that ohmite company was the first introducing "the pink colored resistor", only for electronics working females ;-) manuel arrevola velasco ||||| true e-mail: manolo@taf.fundesco.es ||||| dod #1033 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53727">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53727" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 -| i just installed a motorola xc68882rc50 fpu in an amiga a2630 board (25 mhz -| 68030 + 68882 with capability to clock the fpu separately). previously -| a mc68882rc25 was installed and everything was working perfectly. now the -| systems displays a yellow screen (indicating a exception) when it check for -| the presence/type of fpu. when i reinstall an mc68882rc25 the system works -| fine, but with the xc68882 even at 25 mhz it does not work. the designer -| of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data_strobe (470 ohm) -| might help, but that didn't change anything. does anybody have some -| suggestions what i could do? does this look like a cpu-fpu communications -| problem or is the particular chip dead (it is a pull, not new)? -| moreover, the place i bought it from is sending me an xc68882rc33. i thought -| that the 68882rc33 were labeled mc not xc (for not finalized mask design). -| are there any mc68882rc33? -| thanks -| christian have you changed the crystal that clocks for the fpu. if you haven't then it won't work. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53728">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53728" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 my goal is to come up with an inexpensive design for a receiver "back end" with if input on one end and an fsk demondulator on the other. i'm particularly interested in ways to use a higher if than 10.7 -- do any current chips work up to, say 150mhz with internal downconversion so a normal if filter can be used? gec/plessey specify a series of fm demodulators (sl1454 etc) for use in satellite tv receivers : 150 or 600mhz in, 10mhz of baseband video out. i think there's also a related data slicer / clock recovery circuit intended for use in dmac decoders, though that isn't used in the most common implementation - it may not be in volume production. the most easily available components probably vary with local satellite standards, and i think the european systems vary rather widely from those in the us - so it may be worth investigating locally-available receiver designs to find out what's in common use. adrian godwin : agodwin@acorn.co.uk : adrian@fangorn.demon.co.uk : g7hwn@gb7khw obdisclaimer : i believe this rubbish .. don't imagine that anyone else does. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53730">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53730" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if you are going to use one where it counts (eg:aviation, space scuttle, etc) then i suggest you go and buy a fluke (never seen a beckman), however for every other use you can buy a cheapie. my beckman died a few days ago, thanks do about a 4 or 5 foot drop onto a lab table. !@#!@$#!@$@#$ probably not indicative of anything, but i've already filled out the requisition for a fluke 87. :-) oh yeah, and sometimes our measurements here do count. not often, but often enough that i want at least _one_ good meter! ---joel kolstad we used to buy beckman 110 and hd110 ("ruggedized") versions for use by electricians in the steel mill where i work. after a while we got round to filling all the current-input jacks with silicone - electricians have a regrettable habit of not checking where the last guy left the leads before using a 3 1/2 digit 0.5 % autoranging $400 meter to check if a fuse is good or not. its very hard on meters (and electricians) when you put the milliamp shunt across a 600 volt but that's not why we stopped buying beckmans - after a while a lot of them got "funny" in the lcd display. a black stain would spread from one edge, or else they'd come adrift from those zebra connectors and fail to operate. now we buy flukes, the low-end 20 series mostly ( and we still fill the amp jack with silicone). what the world needs is a meter that won't let you change ranges or turn it on/off with a lead stuck in the amps jack - a little bit of clever plastic detailing would take care of this and make the world safer for electricans, anyway. not that i've ever put a meter on the wrong range into a live circuit, no, not me...not more than a dozen times, anyway.... bills@inqmind.bison.mb.ca the inquiring mind bbs, winnipeg, manitoba 204 488-1607 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53734">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53734" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've got a pace modem , series four 2400s ( made in england by pace micro technology ) with a broken power supply . so i'd like to know : - the voltage and current values of the original power supply ps1001. - the pinout of the power supply connector. - the pinout of the user port and how to use it. many thanks in advance to all the people help me. please post the reply also to my e-mail.......... | sender: stefano mora | | email : mora@verdi.eng.unipr.it | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53735">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53735" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would appreciate some help in locating a telephone controlled power bar for my pc. the unit would power up the pc when the telephone rings and keep it up as long as the telephone connection is present. i also need to be able to power up this same pc through the use of an external timer. i can supply power or a contact closure to do this. i will summarize and post the results of this query here. thank you. dan gould gould@waterloo.hp.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53740">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53740" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a mosfet pulled out of a trygon power supply, for which i have no manual. it's a motorola part with a 1972 date code and the number 285-4 which the motorola folks assure me is a house number, which they can't help me with. any suggestions from folks out there? i can't put it on a curve tracer to try to get an equivalent, since it's completely shot. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53742">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53742" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking for brief information on new applications of electronics (or new electronics in applications.) if you know of any interesting new stuff, i would be intrested in hearing about it. thanks, mjh 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53746">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53746" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 someone was looking for these a few weeks ago - check out comp.dsp 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53747">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53747" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 my monitor display has a bad case of the wigglies. i have a good ground. i live in an old house and i have replaced much of the wiring. i have two emi filters on the computer, the monitor plugs into the computer. when fluorescent lights are on upstairs, the display jiggles, when motors run in the house, the display jiggles, when incandescent lights are on in the kitchen the display jiggles. i could bring a separate line from the breaker box, and use it only for the computer, would this do it? emi doesn't only travel the 110 volt line though. should i shield the back of the monitor? ground a grid or plate? your expertise is appreciated. thanks very much! ed byrnes aaahh... a problem very near and dear to my heart. in our case, other monitors cause this problem - the deflection coil of other monitors to be specific. have also seen a monitor backed up to a fuse panel exhibit this problem. this sounds like your problem since flourescent lites, motors, etc several 10s of feet away seem to me to be too far to cause it, but the juice running to them must pass nearby your monitor. fusebox on other side of wall maybe? we started spec'ing panasonic ct-1331y video monitors (3 switchable input lines(vid & aud) s-vhs on one) <$400. this stopped the wavy interference effect on the computer monitor next to it. now on to your problem. you need what is known as mu shielding (very common, in fact almost mandatory on electrostatic deflection type o'scopes). i talked to a ee prof. he said get a coffee can, cut both ends off, mount around deflection coil of interfering monitor. be careful to avoid all high voltage circuitry. especially the thicker high voltage anode lead usually colored red. if you kill yourself, don't blame/sue me!!! use plastic or other non-conducting stand-offs and such to mount can. now, i would assume that what is good for keeping mag fields in is also good at keeping them out, so hopefully this'll work by mounting shield on monitor being interfered with as well. if not, start shielding those other jeff babb babb@sciences.sdsu.edu babb@ucssun1.sdsu.edu programmer, sdsu - larc 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53748">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53748" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i've been seeing all over late-night tv recently? i was wondering if they use forced air, heat, or both. if there's heat involved, anybody know what temperature they run at? my wife would like one and i'm not inclined to pay >$100.00 for a box, a fan and a heater. seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks. heck, the technology is only what? 1,000 years old? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53753">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53753" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know what frequencies the wireless transmitter/receiver microphone systems that radio shack sells operate at? i've tried everything short of opening one up (not actually owning one makes this difficult...) and just looking.. any help would be greatly appreciated.. these systems are designed for wireless pa systems, etc.. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53759">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53759" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings! situation: i have a phone jack mounted on a wall. i don't know the number of the line. and i don't want to call up the operator to place a trace on it. question: is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line? call a friend long distance, collect. ask to speak with yourself. when the operator asks for you, you won't be there, so ask the operator to leave your number. she'll read it out in the clear. --scott even easier, my area supports 311. dial this and a recording recites your number. phone techs use it to verify an installed line. gary gendel vice president: current consulting assignment: genashor corp mentor graphics corporation 9 piney woods drive 15 independence boulevard belle mead, nj 08502 warren, nj 07059 phone: (908) 281-0164 phone: (908) 604-0883 fax: (908) 281-9607 email: garyg@warren.mentorg.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53762">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53762" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ... i don't know why my fpu has an xc (my original 33mhz fpu was label mc68882-33), but it seems to work fine on my system... p.s. or does it mean experimental chip instead of motorola chip? .-) the rule for the designations is that if it says mc, that means it works *exactly* the way the datasheet/book specifies. if it says xc, that means there is at least one known bug. often these bugs are small and obscure; you might never run into them in practice. at least motorola admits it, unlike certain other companies... all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53763">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53763" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a mosfet pulled out of a trygon power supply, for which i have no manual. it's a motorola part with a 1972 date code and the number 285-4 which the motorola folks assure me is a house number, which they can't help me with. any suggestions from folks out there? i can't put it on a curve tracer to try to get an equivalent, since it's completely shot. --scott since your mosfet is a 1972 vintage, it's probably not a very good one by today's standards. if you have an idea about its voltage and current ratings, e.g. 60vdc @ 6a, you can probably get away with replacing it with anything with better specs. early mosfets had a gate-source voltage rating of approximately +/- 20 vdcmax, and they would usually turn completely "on" at +10vdc. otherwise, mosfets are not really mysterious -- they're more or less voltage controlled current sources. if the mosfet in your circuit is used as an open-loop, voltage controlled current source, you may have to experiment with various gain-altering techniques. bill willis willisw@coe-nw.clemson.edu (803) 656-5550 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53765">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53765" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to experiment with the intel 8051 family. does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers, assemblers, etc.? try lyman.pppl.gov -- /pub/8051 brian day bday@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov new technology, inc. (205) 461-4584 mission software development division opinions are my own - 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53771">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53771" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am in the midst of designing a project which requires two motors and an led illuminator driven with pulse-width modulation. i'm using the 8751, and i understand that the -fb version has a programmable counter array that can essentially be set and forgotten to do the pwm. the problems is, that variant is difficult to come by. i need two or three of the d prefix (ceramic window) version for development, and then lots of the p prefix (plastic otp) for later production. i've tried avnet, arrow, and pioneer. they (might) have them, but i'm looking for samples at this point, and they're not too willing to provide them. i would buy them, but these vendors have $100.00 minimums. any help is appreciated. [ mark e. levy, fermilab | ] [ bitnet: levy@fnal | unix is to computing ] [ internet: levy@fnald.fnal.gov | as an etch-a-sketch is to art. ] [ hepnet/span: fnald::levy (vms!) | ] 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53773">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53773" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to modulate a 40khz squarewave over rf. this is for a rf remote control project. the squarewave has a high of 5 v and low of 0v. t t t t t t t t 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53774">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53774" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 last week i asked for help in getting an old homemade amp working with my sun cd-rom drive. it turns out that the channel i was testing with was burned out in the amp. the other channel works fine. so now i need a new amplifier chip. my local radio shack no longer carries components! the chip is a 12 pin sip (?) labelled with ba5406 and then "502 515" below that. does anyone have a source? thanks, bill morrow clinical neurosciences, university of calgary e-mail: morrow@cns.ucalgary.ca voice: (403) 220-6275 fax: (403) 283-8770 3330 hospital drive nw calgary, alberta, canada t2n 4n1 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53777">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53777" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i repair a lot of monitors here, and i'd like to know where i can get a pattern generator (or a circuit for one) that will provide mda, ega and vga signals. using a whole pc to do this takes up too much space on my bench, and is somewhat less than portable. i guess i could sit down and design something, but i don't have the time right now - any (reasonable) suggestions would be tony grimwood, zl1ttg "make no friendship with an elephant biomedical engineering services keeper, unless you have room to university of auckland entertain an elephant." auckland, new zealand == saadi of shiraz == 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53778">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53778" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 can anyone please email a diagram or give me details of an ftp site where there is a diagram of a simple, small fm mono voice transmitter for trasnmitting in the 90-104 range (preferably above 100 mhz). only a short distance requiered, and frequency variation no too important but must run from 9v or smaller dc thanx in advance /\ /\ __ __ /_ howeg@uk.ac.man.cs / \ / \ / / / / / / / howeg@cs.man.ac.uk __/ \/ \_/__/_/ /_/__/_/____________________________________________ ____________________________/ save the vinyl! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53781">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53781" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 does anyone know if a source for the tcm3105 modem chips (as used in the baycom and my pmp modems)? ideally, something that is geared toward hobbyists: small quantity, mail order, etc. for years, we've been buying them from a distributor (marshall) by the hundreds for pmp kits. but orders have dropped to the point where we can no longer afford to offer this service. and all of the distributors i've checked have some crazy minimum order ($100, or so). i'd like to find a source for those still interested in building pmp kits. any suggestions? andrew c. payne dec cambridge research lab 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53785">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53785" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 the federal communications act of 1934 made it *legal* for you to operate a radio receiver of any kind, on any frequency (including x, k, and ka bands) in the united states. the electronic communications privacy act of 1989(?) restricted the fca of 1934 by making it illegal to receive the land-mobile telephone service, including (i believe) cellular phones. illegal to receive land-mobile telephone service? don't you have to have a mobile reciever to even have land-mobile telephone service? what about ship-to-shore telephone service? no restriction was placed on receiving radar (or, curiously, cordless phones.) enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of 1934. isin't there some kind of rule (regulation, law, whatever) in some juristictions that prohibit the use of *police band* recievers in vehicles? and that radar transmissions are included in the police band so they get covered by the same regulation? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53790">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53790" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 msg-id: <1quomg$f6m@bigboote.wpi.edu> posted: 19 apr 1993 17:49:04 gmt org. : worcester polytechnic institute well, this is my second try at posting on this subject. here goes... in texas (corpus christi at least) if you pick up the phone and 890 the phone company will read the number of the phone you are on back to you. i believe the service department uses this to make certain they are repairing the correct lines when they open the big junction boxes. i don't know if it will work but you can give it a try. good luck. where i live, i use bctel. the number to dial is 211 for the same result. | sean oliver | | internet address: a8647@mindlink.bc.ca | | mindlink! bbs (604)576-1412 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53792">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53792" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 being a electronic engineering student with only electronic ii under my belt, i find myself *needing* to build a moderate wattage audio amp. so, i'll throw out a couple of question for the vast knowledge of the 'net'! please explain how watts are calculated in audio amp circuits. no, not p=i*e, just how it relates to one of the following: ai [current gain] av [voltage gain] ap [power gain] or whatever. i already have a ?wonderful? cheap i.e <$20 schematic for a 20w amp, but i would like to cross/improve the circuit. the problem is that the parts list has ic1 and ic2 as nec70001ab amplifiers. they look like ?11 pin? sip packages with a heatsink. this schematic was published in a 1991 mag so it may be non-existant now. anyway, i tried looking up a replacement in the latest digi-key cat and found it not listed 8(. the closes i could figure was a 9 pin sip as tda1520bu. anyone got any ideas? i thought, hey i can rin a pspice simulation using 741 opamp models. yea, great! it worked. but, i guess the 741 wasn't made for high power amps. as a result, i got a voltage gain of ~15mv/v. worse than i started with 8(... does anyone have a pspice ckt file with cheap yet good gain? how about some models for some of the chips listed in this e-mail? any ascii chip info you guys can send me? i'm open to suggestions/ideas/comments/help! please e-mail since i have little time to search the news... and i'll post if there's and interest! ____________ _------_ |||ibm & | ee majors do it best 8-) --------\\ ] ~-______-~ |||atari |~~~~~~~~~john d. zitterkopf~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (~~~~~\\|_(__ ~~ / | \rules!jdz1@ra.msstate.edu jdz1@msstate.bitnet \______| ( / | \ |aol: zitt@aol.com jdz1@isis.msstate.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53793">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53793" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 no restriction was placed on receiving radar (or, curiously, cordless phones.) enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of 1934. isin't there some kind of rule (regulation, law, whatever) in some juristictions that prohibit the use of *police band* recievers in vehicles? and that radar transmissions are included in the police band so they get covered by the same regulation? those rules/regulations/laws would be subject to the same attack: that they are attempting to preempt federal authority to regulate (or not) radio communications. of course, as the original poster noted, court challenges of this kind can get expensive. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53795">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53795" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was looking at the amps diagram for sony 1090/2090 receivers, and i was amazed to find a difference between the us and canadian model on the capacitor(s) that hangs off the output to the speakers: ------\/\/\----- to speaker (identical both models from amp ---------------| (idnetical both models) > < 10 0.022 --- --- canadian model only! us model --- --- 0.047 and world-wide | | model only. | --- candian model only! | --- 0.047 ----------- gound the board itself is also identical, with room for all three caps. the us/can versions is clearly indicated in both places. how does that make sense? 0.047/2 is 0.0235, essentially 0.022 for caps (there are just standard caps, no special w/type/precision). please explain this michael golan mg@cs.princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53796">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53796" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hello net. i have a 386sx motherboard with the phoenix bios, an on-board ide controller port, and two on-board serial ports. unfortunately, i don't have a manual for this beast and i would like to be able to disable the ide controller in order to use the mfm controller i have. the board says it is made in korea and it uses the chips chipset. if anyone can give me a clue as to how to go about configuring the board so as not to use the ide controller, or how to go about finding out how to do it, their help would be greatly appreciated. thank you in advance for your assistance. please mail buhrow@nfbcal.org with your responses as my news feed is rather thank you very much! -brian <buhrow@nfbcal.org> 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53797">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53797" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for a source for a 4 circuit sequence flasher. input 24 volts ac, 8 amps output: sequence to 4 channels (knob to vary frequency) (max 2 amps per leg) switch to put all channels on full time please email any assistance you can provide. randy email: randy@ve6bc.ampr.ab.ca / ) randy j pointkoski p.eng / __________ _ __ _ _ _ o ________ compression technologies (__/ (_) / / / <_/_)_/ (_</_/_)_/_)_<_(_) / / <_ 7141 77 ave 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53798">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53798" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i am having trouble obtaining the specified standby current drain from a mc146818a real time clock. has anyone out there had some experience in doing this? the specs call for a few sequences to be met before standby mode is activated, and are a bit hard to decipher on that, but i thought that i had it worked out. however, with a 32khz crystal the lowest current drain i can acheive at 3.7v vcc is 150ua. this is three times the specified maximum under the conditions i am attempting to create. i have done the following things: 1) made sure that reset/ is asserted for trlh after powerup, and as is low during this time. 2) made sure that there is a cycle on as after the negation of rd/ or wr/ during which stby/ was asserted. what am i doing wrong? thanks very much, 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53799">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53799" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could someone please tell me if a 1/4 decoder is the same as a 1 to 4 demultiplexer. i know how to link 2 of these to get an 8 output circuit, but how do i link 5 of these to make a 1/16 multiplexer. sorry if this seems like a lame question, but i'm only a newbie to electronics, and i have to do this circuit. please make any mail as droolproof as possible. taro ogawa (u934132@student.canberra.edu.au) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53801">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53801" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the fujitsu 2322 uses what is known as an 'smd' interface (storage module device?). a lot of older minis used it. sun still does on their server models. there are several different speeds of smd, and i think that the fuji drive you have is rated at about 24 mb/sec (thats megabits). there used to be several companies that made couplers for the pc (interphase in texas being one), but i think that the market pretty much has dried up. controllers for this type of drive are readily available for vme buses though. rumor has it that there is a smd to scsi adapter available, but i think that it was designed for slower smd devices. in other words, if you have a pc or mac, that drive is pretty much dogmeat. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53802">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53802" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 currently i am using the 8051 microcontroller with external eprom.. in order to drive the dc motor (with direction) i use the pulse width modultion thru software control(assembly language programming). however i am afraid that they will be overheads and thus alter the pulse timing. my question is is the software pwm control reliable?. i understand that port 0 is a latch and so i vary the duty cycle by setting it high first and at the desire duty cycle then i set low..? any improments ? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53803">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53803" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi netters! i am looking for the list of universities in austrailia, which has electronics department. i am considering to spend a year for research in austrailia about communication area.ýé i am interested in mobile communication areas and spread spectrum communications etc. but i don't have any information about austrailian universities. can anybody recommend a good university in coûßmmunic÷³ation area? any comments will be welcomed! jaehyung kim well, i honestly don't know if they are good, bad or indifferent, but there is an electronics dept here at la trobe: la trobe university, bundoora vic 3083 australia fax +613 471 0524 chairman is prof ian white. sorry, don't have an email address. graham b 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53805">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53805" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does someone sell oem scale units with either analog or digital output? i need something like the scales used in supermarket cash registers, with a dynamic range of a few pounds and reasonable accuracy. any sources ? -david | david prutchi hc1dt | | washington university <prutchi@mesun4.wustl.edu> | | campus box 1185 <dp@cec1.wustl.edu> | | one brookings drive <prutchi@eng.tau.ac.il> | | st. louis, mo 63130-4899 | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53807">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53807" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 since i have seen various different numbers to dial to get your number read back to you by the phone company, could someonepost a list or point me to a book where i could get a list of all the different numbers for the u.s.? failing that, could someone tell me ohio's? ? 451 ? i don't speak for wright ? ? mvanhorn@desire.wright.edu ? state, i just give them ? ? wright state university ? huge amounts of money. ? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53808">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53808" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings! situation: i have a phone jack mounted on a wall. i don't know the number of the line. and i don't want to call up the operator to place a trace on it. question: is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line? thanks for any response. do you get a dial tone when you plug a phone into the jack?? if not, then the line is possibly disconnected from the nearest telco junction box. if you do get a dial tone, then surely the telco is sending a bill for the line to *someplace* or *somebody*. are you sure that what you are doing is on the level. sounds to me like you are just trying to get at somebody's unlisted number. fess up. | keith boyd (ncr- mcpd cola.) | nothing could be finer than huntin' and | | 3325 platt springs rd. | and fishin' in south carolina! -me- | | west cola., s.c. 29170 | go gamecocks! | keith.boyd@columbiasc.ncr.com | | vp: 803-791-6419 or 6455 | from uunet: uunet!ncrcom!ncrcae!clodii!keith | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53809">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53809" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i asked this a year ago, but i am still looking. i am getting sick of having to use a hc373 or a 8751/2. check out xicor's new goodie in the april 12th edition of eetimes x88c64 - an 8k * 8 e2prom with built in latch and bootloader setup. you hook it directly to your '51, power it up, the prom initialises the serial port on the '51, you load in your code via rxd, this gets blatted onto the e2prom, then you reset and run - i'm sure dallas also does something like this too, i suppose it would boil down to relative prices, and the dallas part freeing up p0 & p2 completely. i wonder if anyone has ever managed to design a single sided pcb with an 8051, 573, eprom, sram and >>no links<< ? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53810">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53810" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi all, i'm an assistant manager at a local art theater here in columbus. i'd like to expand our show automation a bit- namely add the capability to use cue tapes to bring the houselights up. our current automation consoles date from the early 60's and don't provide this function. we already have the combo failsafe/contact rollers to read the cuetapes, and our dimmer system will raise the houselights when its fade-up control circuit (120 vac) is momentarily closed, for at least 0.5 second. i've tried wiring the dimmer control to a 12v relay, activated when the cue tape completes the circuit. low tech and simple, but there's one problem: in order to get the 1/2 second pulse, there needs to be a sh**load of cuetape on the film. (35mm runs at 90 feet per minute, so to get a 1/2 second pulse, there needs to be at least 9 inches of solid cuetape!) ideally, i would like to use a single cross-cue to accomplish this function. (a single strip of cuetape perpendicular to the length of the film) this would give a pulse of approximately 1/100 of a second. what i need is a circuit to detect the short cue and activate the relay for around 1/2 second. the ability to adjust how long the relay is activated would be nice. i figure this would require an rc circuit of some sort. i'm sure some of you already have the solution figured out in your heads. any suggestions and schematics would be appreciated! mark fontana "of all the arts, the cinema is | mark a. fontana the most important." | computer and information science --v.i. lenin | the ohio state university 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53812">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53812" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 any info on modern 20mhz or better dual trace scopes would be appreciated. should i buy a used one or a new one? and where? please e-mail. thanks in advance. ken gravenstede, performance technologies incorporated kng@pt.com 315 science parkway, rochester, new york 14620 uupsi!ptsys1!kng 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53815">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53815" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know of an ftp site where i might find public domain software for the motorola 68hc16 microprocessor? i am looking for a basic interpreter/compilier or a 'c' compiler. thanks in advance. ed murashie ed murashie us mail : beckman instruments inc. phone: (714) 993-8895 diagnostic system group fax: (714) 961-3759 200 s. kraemer blvd w-361 internet: murashiea@mail.beckman.com brea, ca 92621 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53816">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53816" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 article 10886 of alt.radio.scanner: path: usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.freenet.edu!aj008 newsgroups: alt.radio.scanner organization: case western reserve university, cleveland, ohio (usa) lines: 26 message-id: <1r16oo$3du@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> nntp-posting-host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu i have a realistic pro-2024 scanner for sale.here is a small desc ription: 60 programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage: 30-50mhz 118-174mhz 380-512mhz it originally cost $200, but i will sell for $150. thank you. / / buchanan in `96! / / fear the goverment that fears your guns. \ \/ / without the 2nd amendment, we cannot guarantee ou \/ / r freedoms. aj008@cleveland.freenet.edu / / buchanan in `96! / / fear the goverment that fears your guns. \ \/ / without the 2nd amendment, we cannot guarantee ou \/ / r freedoms. aj008@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53819">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53819" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 |> >no restriction was placed |> >on receiving radar (or, curiously, cordless phones.) enforcement |> >of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of 1934. |> isin't there some kind of rule (regulation, law, whatever) in some |> juristictions that prohibit the use of *police band* recievers |> in vehicles? and that radar transmissions are included in the police band |> so they get covered by the same regulation? what do you mean by "police band" - there is no such thing. anyway, radar detectors work in shared bands. if you applied your test, all of those radar operated door openers in malls would be illegal. one of the great problems here is that there are too many ill-educated (read illiterate) people making too many laws about subjects on which they are incompetent - there may well be laws refereing to "police bands", they are almost certainly local in scope (state or county) - created by well-meaning, but incompetent idiots. unfortunaltely, laws do not have to be sensible (or even enforceable). lawmakers exist to pass laws - and will continue to do so, until the day where you are faced with death for not doing x, and amputation of all your limbs for doing x ... the choice will be yours. note: no smiley. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53820">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53820" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 while driving through the middle of nowhere, i picked up knbr, am 1070, a clear-channel station based in los angeles. they had an ad claiming that they were able to get traffic flow information from all of the thousands of traffic sensors that caltrans has placed under the pavement. does caltrans sell this info? does knbr have an exclusive? what's the deal? ==doug "former l.a. commuter" claar 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53826">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53826" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know what processor the atari 2600 used? what i'm looking for is th e pin-outs for the atari 2600.... the schematics for it it... does anyone have any idea where i could find this or any related information? this is very impor tant. also, are the rom chips that were used fo rthe 2600 games still available , or were they propreitary? please email me with any responces, as this is very important.. thanks a million... btw- anyone who works/has worked for atari, i could really use your help with i nfo on the old 2600, please email me if you are willing to help me.... thatnks alot!! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53827">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53827" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i've had my fluke 8060a here at work for just over 10 years now. it is a wonderful meter. several colleagues here have some of the newer fluke meters, though i still would just as soon hang on to my 8060. the 8060 a is the 1980s digial "analog" to the simpson 260 analog dmm of the 1950-1960s. there was/is (?) an 8060b that had extended frequency response. i've got a nifty little pen shaped meter made by soar that i keep in my toolbox at home. i've had that for six or seven years now and only replaced the batteries a couple of timees; it is more than adequate for day-to-day hobby use. i think soar oems their stuff for a number of vendors. some of jdr microdevices' stuff looks rather similar to soar's. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53835">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53835" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 well, i'm not too sure if this would be the right place to post this, but anyway, here goes: i was just noticing that some of the current bubblejet printers offers up to 360x360 resolution while a lot of lower end laser printers only offer 300x300. however, the laser printers still seems to be significantly pricier than the bubblejets... how is this? or am i missing something about the resolution thing? hl00@pl122.eecs.lehigh.edu hl00@m180k.cc.lehigh.edu hl00@lehigh.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53836">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53836" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 p.s. any really good books on am/fm theory along with detailed electrical diagrams would help a lot. i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of circuit books with no theory, but one without the other does not help. mixers have a wide variety of implementations; the mini-circuits part you mention is a doubly-balanced diode mixer, but active ones (bjt, fet) seem more popular in consumer receivers. you might call mcl; they have a nice catalog. the universal answer for wide-coverage, theory+practice, rf design is the _arrl handbook_, published by the american radio relay league, the radio amateur organization. any technical bookstore can order you one. the book is superb, with lots of accessible theory, construction projects, and generally interesting stuff. you might also check out _solid state design for the radio amateur_ (i think), by hayward and <someone>. this has sharper design and test information about subsystems like mixers. peter monta monta@image.mit.edu mit advanced television research program 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53839">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53839" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anybody have informations about the w 86 c 451 and w 86 c 456 chips (40pin dil pckg)? they are build in a multifunction io-card for pc. dirk junghanns junghanns@rz.tu-ilmenau.de 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53840">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53840" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hams can legally run up to 1500 watts. it is very unlikely, however, that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car. not possible either. you'd need about a 300 amp alternator for just the amplifier. it is too possible. as the original poster said "it is very unlikely" but definately possible. (can you say batteries?) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53841">
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 after i have produced a schematic with pads-logic, how do i import it into pads-pcb to create a pcb pattern? the only way i've gotten it to work is to output a futurenet netlist, and then import this into pads-pcb. is there another way of doing this? i didn't see any information in the instructions provided, but i might have missed something. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks! (_@_) (_@_) | | raymond yeung internet: nimbus@uiuc.edu | | | | rky57514@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | | | | ee student at the | | | | university of illinois compuserve: 70700,1011 | | | | at urbana-champaign | | (___)-------------------------------------------------------------------(___) i i 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53842">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53842" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need help on 4 components: bat85 diode i know digi-key or newark sells them, but the minimum order is 25! does anyone know where i can get smaller orders of this diode, or an equivalent replacement? bc546b transistor ditto for this transistor. 74hc239 chip digi-key, newark and mouser do not appear to carry ths chip - does anyone know what this does and where i can obtain it? ym3623b chip this yamaha chip decodes s/pdif data (from cd or dat). where can i obtain one of these? thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53843">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53843" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 well, i'm not too sure if this would be the right place to post this, but anyway, here goes: i was just noticing that some of the current bubblejet printers offers up to 360x360 resolution while a lot of lower end laser printers only offer 300x300. however, the laser printers still seems to be significantly pricier than the bubblejets... how is this? or am i missing something about the resolution thing? bubblejets often splatter a little bit, whereas laserjets (given half-way decent toner, like hp's "microfine" stuff) don't. both produce very good output, but you don't have to look too closely at the two to tell that laserjet output is definitely superior. on the other hand, laserjets which haven't been maintained properly and use the cheapest toner the owner could find often produce awful output, much worse than a bubblejet. :-) one other thing... there are bubblejets, and then there are bubblejets. there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output (such as hp's dinky little bubblejet), whereas most produce really good looking output (such as hp's deskjets). ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets. ---joel kolstad p.s. -- if you're in the market for a portable bublejet printer, i can highly recommend the hp portable deskjet, although i've heard the portable canons are good too (i needed pcl support, myself). with the deskjet portable, you even get an undocumented pcmcia card slot! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53844">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53844" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 (posted for a friend) hello there, i would like to know if any one had any experience with having on-board decoupling capacitors (inside a cmos chip) for the power lines. say i have a lot of space left im my pad limited design. any data on the effect of oxide breakdown? any info or pointers are appreciated. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53846">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53846" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to be able to detect the angular position (low accuracy) of an ir emitting source at a distance of about 100 meters (more is better) in daylight. the ir source could be emitting a signature; i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave with 50% duty cycle. i am considering the use of a quadrant detector from centronic inc. to give information to a pan/tilt head to point the sensor and thus determine the angles. for the source i am considering wazing the heck out of an ir led(s), possibly an optek op290 or motorola mled81. wazing would mean at least 1 amp current pulses. at this current the duty cycle of the led drops to 10% and i would need to cycle five of them in turn to get the 50% required. has anyone done something like this? stan burton (dnd/crad/dres/dtd/mss/agcg) sburton@dres.dnd.ca (403) 544-4737 dre suffield, box 4000, medicine hat, ab, canada, t1a 8k6 a method which will directly (almost) provide you with the information that you require is that which is commonly used for coordinate measurements of human body landmarks (eg. the selspot system by selspot ab, sweden, and the watsmart system ??). these use lateral photoeffect detectors [lindholm and oberg, 1974; woltring and marsolais, 1980] to determine the position of a spot of light projected (using a camera lens) over its surface. in escence, the detector is a large photodiode with four cathodes (one on each of the four sides of the square detector crystal) and a single anode (the back of the crystal). a spot of light will produce currents which are proportional to the position of the spot on the detector's face. let's try some ascii graphics in 2-d (so the detector has two cathodes to detect linear position) -------------------------> 1 ----- cathode 1 | | \ xxxxx ________| + \ xxxxx| | \ ------- light >xxxxx| | \_____ divider __ output xxxxx| | | / ------- xxxxx|-----| |-- | / | xxxxx| + | | ________| - / 1 + 2 xxxxx| --- gnd | | / xxxxx| \ / | |/ xxxxx| anode | xxxxx | ----- cathode 2 | --------------------------> 2 if the dot of light from the led is the only source of light, then the position of the projection is given by this circuit regardless of the level of illumina- tion (the divider is used to normalize relative to total received power). when this circuit is used in the presence of other sources of light, then the way of "tuning" to it is to sample for a few msec the background signal, light the led for an equal time and sample that signal separately. the difference between the two is the position of the led. hamamatsu photonics sells linear and 2-d lateral photoeffect detectors, and they also sell the required signal processing electronics. the ready-made systems by selspot and others are not cheap ... lindholm, l.e., and k.e. oberg, "an optoelectronic instrument for remote on-line movement monitoring", biotelemetry, 1, 94-95, 1974. woltring, h.j., and e.b. marsolais, "opto-electronic (selspot) gait measure- ments in two and three dimensional space - a preliminary report", bull. pros- thetics research, 46-52, 1980. most probably this technique can provide you with a much more accurate measurement than you need, but i think that its simplicity beats scanning a quadrant detector with a pan/tilt system until you reach zero difference. | david prutchi hc1dt | | washington university <prutchi@mesun4.wustl.edu> | | campus box 1185 <dp@cec1.wustl.edu> | | one brookings drive | | st. louis, mo 63130-4899 | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53849">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53849" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i want to start a dsp project that can maniplate music in a stereo cassette. is that any chip set, development kit and/or compiler that can equilize/mix music? ideally, the system should have d/a a/d converters & a dsp compiler. a rough estimate of the cost is greately appreciated. thanks in advance. jing chin e-mail address:chin@bode.ee.ualberta.ca 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53850">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53850" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 according to my ti databook, the pinouts for the til311 display are as follows: pin 1 - led supply voltage pin 2 - latch data input b pin 3 - latch data input a pin 4 - left decimal point cathode pin 5 - latch strobe input pin 6 - omitted pin 7 - common ground pin 8 - blanking input pin 9 - omitted pin 10 - right decimal point cathode pin 11 - omitted pin 12 - latch data input d pin 13 - latch data input c pin 14 - logic supply voltage, vcc the logic supply voltage is 5v @ 60-90ma. the led supply is also 5v, but it need not be particularly well regulated. the led drivers on the chip use a constant current source, so led intensity is not affected by the supply voltage. <o_o> kelly gray gray@feline.uucp (preferred) gray@admin.humberc.on.ca 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53851">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53851" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was wondering, what copy protection techniques are avaliable, and how effective are they? has anyone have any experience in this area? with highest regards, babak sehari. uh oh... umm, there are a number of copy protection schemes. some involve modifying the physical media, and some involve encryption schemes, &c. all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time. i recall, however, near monthly releases of new ways to "crack" the copy protection scheme of the latest releases. the fact is, none of them are completely secure, or anywhere near it. some are more or less difficult to crack, and some have already been cracked. i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i incidentally, the "uh oh..." at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack. the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers, many of which include breaking the law, or at least addressing it (from one side or the other.) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53852">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53852" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 my main question is the bulb: where can i get uv bulbs? do they need a lot of power? etc., etc. he ones i have seen are all fluorescent tubes. maybe you could find a small tube to go in one of those hand-held fluoro lanterns? one other thing: a friend of mine mentioned something about near-uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light. does anyone know what he was referring to? blue lights. ultra-violet (by definition?) goes from the blue end of the spectrum that people see to the radio spectrum (x-rays, cosmic rays etc). possibly you could get light at the fringe of visibility (which people with false eye-lenses can see easily, since it's your lenses that soak up most of the uv), however since most people use uv to get other things to `glow', and the near-blue is less energetic, it would probably not work as well, if it worked at all. (lecture on basic atomic physics fits in here, about electron transitions (quantum leaps) and stuff. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53853">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53853" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hams can legally run up to 1500 watts. it is very unlikely, however, that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car. ham rigs not possible either. you'd need about a 300 amp alternator for just the amplifier. i can just see it. you need to slow down on a downgrade, so you hit the push to talk button. now, that indeed is possible. a good friend of mine is running about 1 kw pep from his car. yes, he does have a second alternator. yes, he calls the rig an "electronic brake" since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down. my car, unfortunately, has so much computer junk under the hood that it's astonishingly sensitive to rfi. if i key a 2w ht over the engine with the hood open, the car loses timing due to the rf leaking into the distributor pickup. very poor design. i will, however, point out that ham radio operators are usually quite willing to help when interference is detected. remember that any interference is wasted power; if i put out 1w in the tv band, that's 1w that i am not putting out in the band i am trying to transmit on, and 1w can often be the difference between a nice card hanging on the wall, and nothing. cbers, however, are usually not as helpful. most illegal cbers, however, will stop operation when you inform them of a problem. the rest of them will stop operation when you inform the local fcc office of the problem (in writing, and giving details and addresses). last, you can usually tell ham radio vs. cb. ham operators are required to declare their call (sign) every so many minutes (no more than 10). so if you hear "this is wa1qt" or some other call starting with a, w or k and no more than 6 total characters, you heard a ham. cb'ers probably won't sign (i don't know that they're even required to) and fire/police have other private ids. good advice. hams will frequently give their call, and will never use a "handle." they are less apt to use immense amounts of profanity as well, but that's not to say that they don't from time to time. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53854">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53854" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 let me introduce a problem: when i measure a sinusoidal wave (voltage) with a digital voltmeter, using ac mode, my output is an rms value (a peak value over 2 squared). / right? / when i measure a square wave in the same mode (ac), my output is equal to a peak value, actually, to the upper flat boundary of the wave. i assumed, that a digital voltmeter makes some kind of integration of the input value, and divides it over the wave period. / right?/ now, i used it to measure the same square wave as above, but distorted by high-frequency harmonics. ideally, output should be the same, but... the output value was only about 10% of the previous one! why? what is the nature of this output value? what does the voltmeter actually measure? and what does it show? related question (less important to me): what are advantages and disadvantages of digital voltmeters to compare with analog ones? thank you for your attention, you could mail me your opinion at avm1993@zeus.tamu.edu or open a discussion here. i would appreciate either alexander v. mamishev power system automation laboratory <> phone office (409) 845-4623 department of electrical engineering <> phone home (409) 846-5850 texas a&m university <> fax (409) 862-2282 college station, tx 77843, usa <> internet: avm1993@zeus.tamu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53855">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53855" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 890 the phone company will read the number of the phone you are on where i live, i use bctel. the number to dial is 211 for the same result. in ny city, the number to dial is 958... it seems to be different in different 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53856">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53856" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was wondering, what copy protection techniques are avaliable, and how effective are they? has anyone have any experience in this area? with highest regards, babak sehari. one of the easiest, and really very used ways of copyprotection, is to mark a specific sector on the installation disk bad. this is very easy to get around, though, if you have any knowledge of hw-hacking, but most 'normal' users (yes those lowly key-punchers) don't. whatever you do, please do _not_ use a hardware key. these were very popular a few years ago, and they stink!! mail-mail: gunnarh@sofus.dhhalden.no snail-mail: gunnar horrigmo gunnarh@fenris.dhhalden.no oskleiva 17 n-1772 norway disclaimer: the above posting may seem like insignificant rubbish at first glance, but if you read between the lines, you will be surprised to discover the annals of burt bacharach, world peace, oxford advanced readers dictionary, quantum physics made easy, and an easy-to-use step-by-step walkthrough on how to make a time travelling device that actually works. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53857">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53857" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 one other thing: a friend of mine mentioned something about near-uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light. does anyone know what he was referring to? i don't want to get into a semantic argument, but contrary to some other postings "near uv light" /is/ "actual uv light." the "near" means that it is close to the visible spectrum (i.e. of relatively long wavelength), not that it is "nearly uv." (i'm sure you can figure out now just what "far uv" is.) regular incandenscent flashlight bulbs emit tiny amounts of uv in the near end of the spectrum, such that a filter can be used to remove the visible light and thus create a weak uv source. stronger sources are going to require gas (probably mercury vapor) discharge tubes (such as fluorescent tubes with uv phosphor). be careful, though; strong uv sources can cause physiological damage, especially to the eyes. the shorter wavelengths are the most dangerous. it wouldn't project a beam like a flashlight, but replacing the tubes in a portable fluorescent lantern with uv tubes would be a relatively cheap way to create a portable source. it would be bright enough to be useful, but not dangerously so. -ed hall edhall@rand.org 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53861">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53861" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 suppose we have a boolean function which is a minimal sum-of-products (derived from a k-map or something), like this: f(a,b,c,d) = bc'd' + acd' + abc' + ab'c the books on logic design i have consulted all seem to imply that this is where the analysis ends ... but by factoring out the `a' term in the function, we can get fewer gates: f(a,b,c,d) = bc'd' + a(cd' + bc' + b'c), which yields 9 gates. yes, but... the minimization of gates is important in part because of timing considerations. a ttl gate has the basic structure of and/or/invert, and an inversion of a sum of a product is just exactly one gate delay. the reason to find a minimal sum of products is that this matches a hardware optimization. a positive-or gate (such as the 9-gate solution uses) has two gate delays (and there's another gate delay in the second term) so that the second solution, while simpler in logic symbols, can be expected to be something less than optimal in the real world. ecl is similar to ttl, in that it can support an or/and gate with the minimum delay (unlike ttl, you get both true and inverse outputs for 'free' when using ecl). pals are basically large programmable and/or/invert gates (with your choice of internal connections between the various sections, and perhaps some latches), so a minimum sum of products also is a way to shoehorn a logic design into a few pals. it's not comparably easy to design with a minimization of logic gates, but some software packages claim to allow you to do so, and will take just about any mess of gates (as a nodelist with 74xxx series logic ics) and produce a description of a logic cell array to do the same job. xilinx's xact software does this by treating each logic block as a macro, and expanding it all out, then simplifying. john whitmore 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53867">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53867" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was wondering, what copy protection techniques are avaliable, and how effective are they? has anyone have any experience in this area? with highest regards, babak sehari. uh oh... umm, there are a number of copy protection schemes. some involve modifying the physical media, and some involve encryption schemes, &c. all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time. i recall, however, near monthly releases of new ways to "crack" the copy protection scheme of the latest releases. the fact is, none of them are completely secure, or anywhere near it. some are more or less difficult to crack, and some have already been cracked. i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i incidentally, the "uh oh..." at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack. the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers, many of which include breaking the law, or at least addressing it (from one side or the other.) i have written a program and i want to market it. i would like certain degree of protection, since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations. i know laser hole burning method, and hardware key method, however, my software is going to cost only $15.00, so i can not afford that. also, at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software. well, i guess say upto %20 illigal copying is ok by me. however, i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software. off course, i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying, since they can develope a better program anyway. with highest regards, babak sehari. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53869">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53869" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : yes, i know it sounds crazy. call it an urge. call it what you want. : just don't ask why :-) : anyway, i'd like to build a uv flashlight, cheaply. "flashlight" means : it should be reasonably portable, but could have a power pack if : necessary. : my main question is the bulb: where can i get uv bulbs? do they : need a lot of power? etc., etc. : i'm not too concerned with whether it's long-wave or short-wave : (but hey, if anyone has a cheap source of bulbs, i'll take both). check out a medical supply catalog, the thing you are looking for is called a woods lamp (so you can check for woods sign, certain skin conditions flourecse (sp) under uv light) they come in disposable penlight like types and larger ac powered types. it is also used in eye examinations, a flourescent dye is introduced to the surface of the eye, then uv is shined on it, shows up scratches and abrasions very clearly that would otherwise be very difficult to detect. (for the completest the dye is called flouescien, and in normal light appears orangish, and leaves a mild burning sensation to the eye for 10-15 minutes, until the tears flush it all out. have fun. --dale farmer 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53870">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53870" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 this may sound like a simple-minded question, but this is the first time i've ever had a need for this: i've been designing some relatively simple chip circuits based on things like photoresistors (you know, no light to photoresistor, emit a logic high, etc.). anyway, i've got some servos lying around, and i wanted to do some things with them using digital logic. i know all about having to pulse the signal and everything, i just have one problem: i'm assuming i need a negative (yes, negative) logic high to get the thing to turn in the direction opposite the direction it would turn under normal logic high. is a negative logic high (i've seen this in schematics) the same thing as an active low, or what? i'm not using a bi-polar power source, so how would i get a negative logic high out of this thing? i need to have all three signals available: logic high, logic low, and negative logic high. any help would be greatly appreciated. also, please reply via email, as i never seem to have time to read this (or any other) group lately. thanks much, umlangston@memstvx1.memst.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53871">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53871" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 does anyone know the details of the interface (5 wire din) for the ir remote sensor & (2 wire ir repeater) for the adcom gtp-500ii preamp? the adcom part numbers are the xr-500ii, spm-500ii, and ira-500ii. a cursory physical examination of the pre-amp connector indicates that the connector (5 pin din) may provide: (viewed from connector front) 5 1 (pin ?) +?v @ ???ma 4 2 (pin ?) +/-?v @ ???ma 3 (pin 3) signal ground (pin ?) demodulated signal ?v-pp, ? polarity, ? ma drive (pin ?) signal to drive repeater led (drives through 150ohm resistor) ?v-pp i assume that the repeater connectors (mini-plugs) drive the ir repeater led's directly. true? can anyone fill in the ?'s. thanks. here's the scoop. when you get your home brew receiver working, would you be willing to share it with the rest of us? i always wanted to build my own but never have the time to fool around and design it. pin 1: signal ground pin 2: signal pin 3: always hot +6 volts pin 4: +6 volts, hot only when preamp is turned on pin 5: infrared repeater connectors the infrared repeater jacks on the back of the preamp are not connected to anything inside the preamp except the 5 pin connector pin #5. there is a 150 ohm resistor between the two jacks, with a 1.5k from pin 5 to the signal pin #2 in the preamp is summed with the built in ir receiver. they use a chip called cx20106a and a bjt to amplify the signal. i would imagine the logical way would be to duplicate this circuit and use it as the external receiver. if you need more info, let me know. randy randyd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53873">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53873" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does any one know if the 6551 is timing/pin compatible with the 6551.. no, the 6551a is able to operate in a 2 mhz system, the 6551 can only take 1 mhz without problems. if you see a 8551 made by mos or csg, take it, its a 6551a. it seems the 6551 has in iheirent bug with cts/rts handshaking and i need a suitable pin replacement to put in my serial card... possibly a buffered version perhaps? i know no fixed version of the 6551. there are different possibilities to work around this bug. the easiest is to tie _cts to gnd and use _dsr or _dcd as _cts. it should be easy to fix the software, _dsr is bit 6 and dcd ist bit 5 of the status register (read 6551 with rs1 = low and rs0 = high). using the _cts-line can lead into big trouble. the 6551 _instantly_ stops transmission if _cts goes high. this means, that you may get only a half byte... gerrit heitsch moenchweg 16 7038 holzgerlingen germany logical adresses: uucp: gerrit@laosinh.stgt.sub.org fido: (2:2407/106.9) if we will ever be visited by aliens, it will be very hard to explain, why a lifeform, that is intelligent enough to build atomic weapons can be stupid enough to do it. (taken from geo special about space, page 88-91) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53875">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53875" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just moved to nyc and wondered if there are any electronics hackers out there who could point me to places in nyc that sell individual electronic components (switches, pots, transformers, caps, try cables and chips ... let me dig out a reciept ... here we are... cables & chips at 121 fulton street, that's near south street seaport and wall street. phone is 212-619-3132 and 800-843-4117. however, when ordering there, be very exact or there's a good chance they'll screw up. otherwise, they're pretty good, and they deliver too. [ robert s. mah | voice: 212-947-6507 | "every day an adventure, ] [ one step beyond | email: rmah@panix.com | every moment a challenge" ] 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53877">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53877" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i would like to know if any one had any experience with having |> on-board decoupling capacitors (inside a cmos chip) for the power |> lines. say i have a lot of space left im my pad limited design. |> any data on the effect of oxide breakdown? any info or pointers |> are appreciated. dec did this on their new alpha chip. i'm sure you could call them up and ask them how they did it (haha). actually, there are some details in their article in ieee journal of solid-state circuits. i think it was sometime around nov. 1992. --andy s. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53878">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53878" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i have written a program and i want to market it. i would like certain degree of protection, since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations. i know laser hole burning method, and hardware key method, however, my software is going to cost only $15.00, so i can not afford that. also, at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software. well, i guess say upto %20 illigal copying is ok by me. however, i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software. off course, i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying, since they can develope a better program anyway. i wouldn't bother with the copy protection, if i were you. if you program is any good, the pirates will have stripped the protection and will be distributing the stripped version is well under a week. hardware methods prevent j. random loser from using his copy ii pc to pirate your software, but doesn't stop anyone who knows a few people with enough connections to "real" pirates who _will_ be able to defeat your "check for the hole" code. you may want to price your software (depending on what it is) a tad higher... a price change from $15 to $25 probably would turn off very few potentials buyers, and that way you could tolerate more pirates (whose numbers don't change with the price). as for the 20% pirating figure... ha, ha. of course, a lot of pirates just have this "thing" about having pirated software, even if they never use it, so perhaps that really wouldn't count towards 20%. even so, 20% is awfully ---joel kolstad p.s. -- i assume you're talking pc software. if you're talking unix, hp-48, or something else somewhat obscure, copy protection might be a slightly more viable alternative. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53881">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53881" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hey everyone, i'm new to this newsgroup so please excuse me if this is a dumb question....i want to build a crossover for my stereo and i need a coil with an inductance of 6.8mh (actually i need 4). i was wondering if anyone knew where i could buy these or how to make these. i've called many places and no one i can find sells them. if you have the answers just e - mail me.... thanks in advance.... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics53882">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53882" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hmmm. how are those orange "isolated ground" outlets (often used in computer rooms) wired? they require two separate grounds. one ground goes to the ground pin of the outlet, and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet's mounting tabs (and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate, if any). the box/faceplate ground goes to the normal distribution panel ground. the outlet ground-pin wire is generally connected to an insulated busbar in the distribution panel which is, in turn, connected to the building-entrance main ground by its own wire. so the two separate ground systems are connected together at the building's service entrance. but one is also connected to every grounded piece of electrical equipment in the whole building, while the isolated ground is shared only by the equipment plugged into isolated-ground outlets of that panel. if someone happens to accidentally short one phase of a 600v feeder to ground, the main building ground is likely to have a lot of noise on it until the breaker trips or the fuse blows, while the isolated ground will remain relatively noise-free. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53886">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53886" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 does anyone know what processor the atari 2600 used? what i'm looking for is th e pin-outs for the atari 2600.... the schematics for it it... does anyone have any idea where i could find this or any related information? this is very impor tant. also, are the rom chips that were used fo rthe 2600 games still available , or were they propreitary? please email me with any responces, as this is very important.. thanks a million... btw- anyone who works/has worked for atari, i could really use your help with i nfo on the old 2600, please email me if you are willing to help me.... thatnks alot!! the atari 2600 used a 6502 cpu, just like their entire 8-bit line (400, 800,1200,1400, 1440, 130xe, 65xe computers, as well as the 5200 game machine). the 2600 had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia's for the joysticks. later model 2600 might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci, as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years. additionally, i think the 2600 used 2k, 4k, and up to 8k of rom for their games. i have no idea how much ram it had to work with, but i would hazard a guess of 2 or 4k ram. think comes from a lot of hacking with the 800 and 130xe computers. and occasionally hacking with the 2600 (fixing it for monitor composite video use, and audio hookups). also i tryed to make a cartridge-less system that stored the rom into a ram cartridge that could be loaded up at some prior time (a way to backup cartridges). i've heard of a setup like this where games could be bought (cheaply) on fsk-recorded tapes, then you would load them into a special ram cartidge, and play them. anyways, if you're interested in looking for 2600 equipment, we've got two 2600 machines around (one composite a/v modified), and lotsa cartridges. willing to sell for reasonable offer + shipping and handling. don't play it anymore, since going to computers + nintendo (interested in that too?). hope that helps your question... i might grab some 6502's out too, since they must be fun to play with (as microcontrollers). -shishin "squish" yamada squish@endor.harvard.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53888">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53888" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a "copy protection faq" ? i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative! *i* will volunteer to ask some of the questions, if you will provide the answers :-) ketil albertsen 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53890">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53890" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 taft electronics, 45th street between 5th & 6th -- the only one left in what was once an entire district of electronics stores. a little expensive. trans-am electronics, canal street near 7th ave -- lots of surplus type several other electronics or "surplus" type places are still on canal i think bronx wholesale radio is still in business -- fordham road not too far from arthur avenue in the bronx. also in the bronx is northeastern (or was it northwestern? northeast electronics?) on jerome avenue near bedford park boulevard. they're mostly a tv parts supply house, but when i was building cb radio projects, they were quite handy.. ed ravin | "a tv cop fires a gun three times an hour. a real cop prodigy services co. | fires a gun only once every five years." white plains, ny 10601 |------------d i s c l a i m e r - w a s - h e r e ----- +1-914-993-4737 | elr@trintex.uucp or elr%trintex@uunet.uu.net 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53891">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53891" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i want to connect a very small "home-made" speaker up to the headphone jack on my macintosh lc for an experiment. the dc resistance of the speaker is 1 ohm. any ideas how i can do this safely? i think i need some kind of an impedance transformer or something.? wayne@uva386.school.virginia.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53892">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53892" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 has anyone ever heard of fet-trons (or is it fetrons, fettrons, ...). these were fet replacement modules for vacuum tubes. i'm looking for applications where they were used. charlie brett - hp ft. collins 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53893">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53893" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 : while driving through the middle of nowhere, i picked up knbr, am 1070, : a clear-channel station based in los angeles. they had an ad : claiming that they were able to get traffic flow information from : all of the thousands of traffic sensors that caltrans has placed : under the pavement. does caltrans sell this info? does knbr have : an exclusive? what's the deal? : ==doug "former l.a. commuter" claar you were right the second time, it is knx. believe it or not, i also listen to knx in the evenings here in colorado! it's kind of fun driving through the country listening to traffic jams on the 405. back to your original question. yes, there are sensors just past every on-ramp and off-ramp on the freeways. they're the same sensors used at most stoplights now (coils in the pavement). you might want to give caltrans a call or even ask bill keene (knx's traffic reporter). i doubt if just anyone can get the information, but it would be worth asking just in case you can get it. charlie brett (former la commuter) ft. collins, co 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53902">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53902" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i am involved with a michigan company that has an application requiring wireless data transfer. if you have expertise or information that may assist us in this project, please contact me (internet: leblanc@cvm.msu. edu). 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53903">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53903" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hello-- i just bought a new portable cd player for the office, and i notice that it proudly proclaims "8 times oversampling" on the box. now while i think i understand what oversampling is (the rate of discrete "samples" exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor), i don't understand this "8 times" business... it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player (was it really 10 years ago?!), the specs said "4 times" ... could someone please tell me whether i'm getting senile? if i'm not, then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate? if i really wanted better fidelity, wouldn't i have to have the same higher rate of sampling during the recording process? furthermore, am i wrong in interpreting the sampling rate (from the player's point of view) as being the same thing as the data rate for the bit stream coming off the optical medium? does this mean that the data rate (related to the rotational speed of the disk) has changed since 1983? i'm so confused... --cliff | clifford bowman, box 1890, russellville, ar 72811 | hcb@netcom.com | | i'm pretty sure the world *isn't* fair... if it | (501) 968-2232 | | were, i'd be a lot worse off! | n5tju | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53905">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53905" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 almost any two dissimilar metals in almost any electrically conductive example: copper and zinc in coca-cola... copper and galvanized steel nails in a lemon... don't expect much power out, but it should be easily detectable with a voltmeter. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< a copper and a zinc rod in a potato also work nice. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53909">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53909" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i built a little project using the radio shack 5vdc relays to switch audio. i got pretty bad 'clicks' when the thing switched. is there a good relay/relay circuit that i can use for switching audio, so that there will be *no* noise of any kind on the audio lines. with relays alone, you will always get a transient when you abruptly turn on or off any channel. if you don't want to hear the transient, use some other device (a photoresistor-output optoisolator is the usual sort of thing) to gently mute the signal, then switch, then remove the power from the lamp in the optoisolator. it used to be standard practice to employ photoresistors in switching audio, because the photoresistor time delay (a few thousandths of a second) kept any noise in the digital side (which drives the lamp) from contaminating the audio. and, the devices are cheaper than relays. john whitmore 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53910">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53910" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 : on december 29, 1992, it was illegal to operate a radar detector : in the state of virginia. if one got caught, one got fined $65.00. the federal communications act of 1934 made it *legal* for you to operate a radio receiver of any kind, on any frequency (including x, k, and ka bands) in the united states. and the commonwealth of virginia has not exactly butted against the issue on those grounds. the claim is that as a matter of traffic safety one is not allowed to have a functioning radar detector on the dashboard while operating a motor vehicle. yes, the argument is bogus, but... it hasn't been successfully challenged in court. yet. john whitmore 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53913">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53913" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 well, my house was built just last year, and the breaker box is wired the same way. all the white and ground wires are on a common bus. except for the 220v circuits, only black wires are hooked to the breakers. it was the same way in the last two houses i had also. are you sure this is wrong? i still have the building inspector's signature on the breaker box. the point is that the original poster was talking about connecting ground and neutral in the *outlet* box (big no no), and you are talking about them being connected in the breaker box (as things should be). if this is not obvious, the point is that there should be current flow in the white, i.e. neutral/return wires when things in the house are operating. there should not be any flow in the ground wires unless there is a fault condition. notice also that in the breaker box there is a wire leading from the above-mentioned junction to earth ground, usually a pipe or spike driven into the ground. tom trebisky ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53914">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53914" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hello-- i just bought a new portable cd player for the office, and i notice that it proudly proclaims "8 times oversampling" on the box. now while i think i understand what oversampling is (the rate of discrete "samples" exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor), i don't understand this "8 times" business... it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player (was it really 10 years ago?!), the specs said "4 times" ... could someone please tell me whether i'm getting senile? if i'm not, then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate? if i really wanted better fidelity, wouldn't i have to have the same higher rate of sampling during the recording process? furthermore, am i wrong in interpreting the sampling rate (from the player's point of view) as being the same thing as the data rate for the bit stream coming off the optical medium? does this mean that the data rate (related to the rotational speed of the disk) has changed since 1983? [note: i just tried to figure this stuff out about a month ago myself, from various people on the net, so i could be wrong.] the data is only ever read once (barring mistracks and such, of course), and eventually gets turned into 44.1 khz, 16 bit, two channel data. oversampling takes two discrete data points, and interpolates n-1 points between them for n times oversampling. when i asked, people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation, but significantly more anyway, then, the purpose of oversampling is to move the "effective" sampling rate up to n times 44.1 khz, in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters. for the same quality filter, higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters, whereas for the same price filter, higher oversamplings lets you build better filters. so, assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same, oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce _slightly_ better sound due to anti-alias ---joel kolstad 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53915">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53915" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i built a little project using the radio shack 5vdc relays to switch audio. i got pretty bad 'clicks' when the thing switched. i was doing my question is: is there a good relay/relay circuit that i can use for switching audio, so that there will be *no* noise of any kind on the audio lines. are you switching high level signals or low level signals like pre-amp a novel circuit i used to build was a primitive "optical isolator".. it consists of a resistive photocell and a lamp, all packaged in a tube. when the lamp is off the cell is high resistance. turn the lamp on and the resistance lowers i use an h11f1 fet optoisolater to switch microphone level signals. there is no click, since i put a .1uf cap across the led. distortion measurement are very low with mic level, and they went up to 0.03% at a + 14 db line level. all i did was put the fet in series with one leg of the balanced line. no hums, pops, just audio jumping out of silence. the fet runs about 100 million ohms with the led dark and drops to 150-200 ohms with it on. hey, it works, and works well. galen watts, kf0yj 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53920">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53920" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 we are dartmouth engineering students.we are looking for documented data regarding the wear associated with turning on an off a monitor and how it relates to power consumption. interested in a comparison between the wear on a monitor which is left on continuously and one which is turned off when not in use. please personalize e-mail to: ds@dartmouth.edu thank you, dan stern oliver weir 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53921">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53921" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 write a good manual to go with the software. the hassle of photocopying the manual is offset by simplicity of purchasing the package for only $15. also, consider offering an inexpensive but attractive perc for registered users. for instance, a coffee mug. you could produce and mail the incentive for a couple of dollars, so consider pricing the product at $17.95. or, _documentation_ for the program ;-). a lot of shareware out there is very similar in the approach - send in your money, and you get documentation, and a free upgrade to the latest version. perhaps even support of some small degree. whatever you want to offer that is "better" than the circulating version. you're lucky if only 20% of the instances of your program in use are non-licensed users. figure about 50%, as i have seen. the best approach is to estimate your loss and accomodate that into your price structure. sure it hurts legitimate users, but too bad. it doesn't really hurt legit users. shareware is still much cheaper than the alternatives. ---------visit the sounding board bbs +1 214 596 2915, a wildcat! bbs------- obdis: all opinions are specifically disclaimed. no one is responsible. patrick taylor, ericsson network systems thx-1138 exuptr@exu.ericsson.se "don't let the .se fool you" 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53922">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53922" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was wondering if people had any good uses for old 256k simms. i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to. i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest. so, if you have an inovative use (or want to buy some simms 8-) ) sure i'll give you 10 bucks for all of them 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53924">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53924" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 is cci still published? if so, does anyone have their address? circuit cellar inc. 4 park st. suite 20 vernon, ct 06066 (203)875-2751 jeff babb babb@sciences.sdsu.edu babb@ucssun1.sdsu.edu programmer, sdsu - larc 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53925">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53925" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 can anybody recommend a good, application-oriented beginner's reference to rf circuits? i am pretty good on theory & know what different types of modulation mean, but don't have a lot of practical experience. a book detailing working circuits of different types (modulation, power, frequency, what is legal, what is not, et cetera), would be very helpful. steve klinkner at&t bell labs srk@boeing.att.com att!boeing!srk 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53928">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53928" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi! after i have produced a schematic with pads-logic, how do i import it into pads-pcb to create a pcb pattern? the only way i've gotten it to work is to output a futurenet netlist, and then import this into pads-pcb. is there another way of doing this? i didn't see any information in the instructions provided, but i might have missed something. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks! sorry, it's german, but i hope you understand it. uebertragung der schaltplan-daten (*.sch) in die board-daten (*.job): pads-logic: in/out net list select pads-pcb net list output file name -> filename angeben pads-pcb: in/out ascii in ascii input file name -> filename angeben errors aoutput file name -> filename angeben, nicht cr jetzt sind alle bauteile auf einem haufen und muessen mit move verteilt werden. viele gruesse 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53931">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53931" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was just wondering one thing, actually two. ( i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject) why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead (totally unuseable) when stored on a concrete floor? i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year, *to preserve them* and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work, but they act like the two terminals are shorted. i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that, 'cause it ruins them, but he couldn't tell me why. camter28@astro.ocis.temple.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53934">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53934" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 this is message is only of interest to those going to international symposium on circuits and systems that is being held in chicago this may. i checking to see if there is any people out there who would be interested in getting together for a pickup game of soccer during the off hours of the conference. if so could you e-mail me at: philc@macs.ee.mcgill.ca i'll bring a ball. if you know someone who is going to the conference and you know that they are avid soccer players please pass on this message to them. also if someone in chicago is going to the conference please let me know if there is any field near the hotel where we can play. thanks. bye. philip crawley 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53935">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53935" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i am having trouble obtaining the specified standby current drain from a mc146818a real time clock... lowest current drain i can acheive at 3.7v vcc is 150ua. this is three times the specified maximum... 1) made sure that reset/ is asserted for trlh after powerup, and as is low during this time. 2) made sure that there is a cycle on as after the negation of rd/ or wr/ during which stby/ was asserted... are any of the inputs to the chip coming from ttl? standby-drain specs for cmos chips typically apply only if inputs are pulled all the way down to zero or all the way up to vcc. ttl isn't good at doing the former and it won't do the latter at all without help from pullup resistors. this sort of thing can easily multiply power consumption by a considerable factor, because the cmos transistors that are supposed to be off aren't all the way hard off. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53939">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53939" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i have notice a lot of electronics questions by people who are obviously not "tuned-in" to electronics. many of them have rather simple answers, and many of them require a circuit diagram. rather than muck up the network, why don't you write to me, send a self- addressed, stamped envelop, and i'll answer your questions, if i can. w. l. willis, p. e. 114 fern circle clemson, sc 29631 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53940">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53940" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 in most areas of the country, serviced by ess (or cess), your phone * paula@nlbbs.com * * paula stockholm cumberland, maine usa * 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53941">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53941" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 one other thing... there are bubblejets, and then there are bubblejets. there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output (such as hp's dinky little bubblejet), whereas most produce really good looking output (such as hp's deskjets). ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets. p.s. -- if you're in the market for a portable bubblejet printer, i can highly recommend the hp portable deskjet, although i've heard the portable canons are good too (i needed pcl support, myself). with the deskjet portable, you even get an undocumented pcmcia card slot! i second that suggestion. although i don't own the hp portable deskjet, i *do* own the hp deskjet 500. it gives the nicest outputs, with only a minor loss of quality. for all intensive purposes (papers, letters, resumes), i treat my deskjet like a laser printer (you *do* have to look a bit closely to see the blurs in the characters). only one grudge, the ink that hp gives you does smudge rather quickly in the presence of moisture (even though the ink is waterproof). however, you would have to spend about $500 more for laser quality. the cannon bubblejets are nice, however they don't seem to have as much support (eg: drivers for popular programs) as the hp ink-jets. also hp deskjet (regular,plus,500,500c) accepts xerox paper (i believe that the cut-sheet feeder is an option for the cannon bubblejet). if you don't mind refilling your printer with cheap ink (say fountain-pen ink), then the hp deskjets are *very* cheap to maintain (i paid $3.50 for my last bottle of ink and i expect it to last 9 months). -kimball (who doesn't work for hp, but just loves his printer very much!) ps: i have a question for you netters, i'm too afraid to refill with the waterproof inks they sell in art-supply houses because i had brought a bottle of waterproof ink and it clogged up my cartridge. i wonder what is a 'good' waterproof ink (aside from buying refill-kits) to refill my cartridge? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53943">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53943" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : my 9 yr old son has signed up to do a science report on batteries. i was : wondering if anyone could provide me with some information as to how to : construct a home-built battery. in my grade school days, i remember seei : the 'ice cube tray' version, but i don't remember what to use as a good : electrolyte or what the easily obtainable metals were. : thank you in advance. i remember watching a whole "mr. wizzard" program on this subject when i was a kid. the battery constructed on the program which made the biggest impression on me, and generated the most power, was made using a galvanized bucket (for the zinc) and a copper toilet tank float. the electrolyte was sauerkraut! take a lemon. stick a copper strip into the lemon. stick a galvanized nail in about 1 to 1-1/2 inches from the copper strip. you should get about 1/2 volt from it - enough to light an led. * slmr 2.1 * support your medical examiner, die strangely. the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53946">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53946" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 mjm>hi, i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me on twwo related mjm>subjects. i am currently learning about am/fm receivers and recieving mjm>circuits. i understand a lot of things ,but a few things i am confused mjm>abuot. the first is the mixer, to mix the rf and local oscillator mjm>frequencies to make the if. does anyone have any cicruit diagrams (as mjm>simple as possible) for this kind of mixer? i have come across a mjm>mc-sbl mixer chip but i have not been able to find it in any catalogs mjm>(active,etc...) mjm>along the same note, are there any simple fm receiver circuits anyone mjm>may have stashed away somewhere and they couold let me see?. mjm>p.s. any really good books on am/fm theory along with detailed mjm>electrical diagrams would help a lot. mjm>i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of mjm>circuit books with no theory, but one without the other does not help. digi-key has the ne-622 chip which has a local oscillator and mixer on one chip. for a great combination of theory with actual circuits, the best reference for non-engineers is probably the radio amateur's handbook from the arrl. most library's have it in the reference section. * slmr 2.1 * if ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy folk? the ozone hole bbs * a private bulletin board service * (504)891-3142 3 full service nodes * usrobotics 16.8k bps * 10 gigs * 100,000 files skydive new orleans! * rime network mail hub * 500+ usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to: postmaster@ozonehole.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53948">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53948" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 this may be a safety issue; the csa is more paranoid in certain areas than ul and such. two caps in series means that you don't have a short if one of them shorts. not necessarily true; a short in one, if near the maximum series voltage drop, will overvoltage the other one and short it too, more <bgb> lihan@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu / the only reason the world hasn't (really bruce bostwick) / dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas / murphy's law also applies to murphy. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53949">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53949" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i had a catalog with membrane keypads, but i dunno what happened to it, and it was so long ago that i forget the name of the company. anyway, you could make your own legend and slip it behind the bezel. really nice and reasonably priced. can anyone tell me where to get some more of these critters? for some reason the name grayhill springs to mind -- saw something like that in a grayhill catalog, along with options for custom printed overlays and a neat little electroluuminescent backing that would make the whole shebang glow a nice shade of green .. mighty handy if you're trying to key a door combination in the dark and don't want to turn on the &%#$!! light .. <bgb> lihan@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu / the only reason the world hasn't (really bruce bostwick) / dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas / murphy's law also applies to murphy. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53952">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53952" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i know what the 68hc811e2 is all about, but i'm trying to figure out what the 68sec811e2 is... specifically, what does the sec stand for? dale ulan ve6dau ulan@ee.ualberta.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53955">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53955" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 : they require two separate grounds. one ground goes to the ground pin : of the outlet, and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet's : mounting tabs (and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal : faceplate, if any). i thought the ground was connected to the metal frame on the socket. christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf@mtu.edu remember, even if you win the rat race - you're still a rat. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53957">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53957" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 one not-so-quick question to throw out there for you guys... for our class project, we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs: voltatge: adjustable from 1-12v current: *limited* at 1a voltage must stay within 2% of designated value for i from 0-1a ac ripple less than 5 mv (rms) of course, we can't just use an adjustable voltage, current-limiting regulator chip ;^) our problem is with the current limiting (i.e. we've found stuff to do the rest of the parts of the circuit). what the supply must do, if presented with a load which would draw more than 1a, given the supply voltage, is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal one amp. thus, if we were to short the thing with the ammeter, we should read one amp. if we measure the current through a 1 ohm resistor at 12v, we should read one amp (and the output voltage, by necessity, must be 1v. the only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output power transistor, and therefore reduce the output. so, does anybody have any ideas we could work from? thanks in advance. andy collins, kc6yey acollins@uclink.berkeley.edu ps: if anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project, i agree fully, but i still have to do it, its graded ;^) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53960">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53960" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i've used on-chip capacitors to reduce ground-bounce noise on a small systolic array chip that had 50pf loads on the clock lines. (design was in 2-micron n-well cmos, using the mosis scalable design rules.) here are some thoughts on the bypass capacitors: 1) they don't help much with simultaneous output switching--there is still a large inductance between the bypass capacitor and the load capacitor (on both the signal line and the ground return), so you still get ground and power line bounce. 2) they do help a lot with on-chip loads, as i had with the high load on the clock lines. 3) the transients you are trying to suppress are really high frequency, so forget about large areas of poly-thin-oxide-diff capacitors, since the rc time constant is too large. what i did is to make a metal2, metal, poly, diff sandwich, but put a lot of holes in the poly layer, allowing frequent diff-metal1 contacts. i forget exactly how wide the poly lines were. if i were doing this design again, i'd probably omit the diff altogether, and use a solid poly sheet instead, using just m2, m1, and poly (and substrate, but that has such a high resistance it can be ignored at these speeds). 4) you are probably better off trying to tune your circuit to run with slightly slower edges and lower voltage swings (especially for output signalling), than spending chip area on capacitors. i had spare space on the die since the circuit was too big for a mosis tiny chip, and the next size up was twice as big as i kevin karplus kevin karplus karplus@ce.ucsc.edu due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is being turned off. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53961">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53961" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 name your price, cap colours & quantity available. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53964">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53964" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 for all people that are interested in every aspect of the 2600 try the zine: 2600 connection $1 cash to : timothy duarte po box n, 664 westport, ma 02790 for sample pgp key on request. mycal@netacsys.com mycal's way of skiing moguls: // \ turn, turn, turn, air, survive, survive, survive... no risk, no rush 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53965">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53965" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi there, can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games. many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them. thanx in advance. try parts express in dayton, ohio also. they have a complete line of professional arcade buttons, joysticks etc... the have a 1-800 number so call 1-800-555-1212 and ask them what the 1-800 number for part express in dayton, ohio is. i love the free 1-800 directory assistance... daniel joseph rubin rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu go bengals! go bucks! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53968">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53968" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 for a project of my own, i would like to build a infra-red remote control receiver (for regular vcrs and tvs remotes). does anybody have any info or tips on how to build such receiver ? in particular, a) which photo detector should i use (which wavelength do remotes use) ? b) which ics or circuit should i use ? c) any suggestions for circuit layout another suggestion - find a brand of tv that uses an ir remote, and go look at the sams photofact for it. you can often find some very detailed schematics and parts list for not only the receiver but the transmitter as well, including carrier freq. specs. and tone decoding specs. if the system uses that. probably won't help. i'd be willing to bet that _every_ manufacturer used those little self-contained modules. i think sharp made them. radio shack used to sell them for a few bucks (maybe they still do.) the module had 3 leads: power, ground and demodulated output. it contained the photo-detector, amplifier, integrator and demodulator all in a tiny metal can. if you want to buy one, try radio shack, or else a tv repair shop can probably order one. btw - the carrier frequency is 40 khz, and each different tv/vcr/cable box/stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment. jim ritterbusch ritterbus001@wcsu.ctstateu.edu - or - ne22@radiomail.net (temp, rf) there is an art, the guide says, or rather a knack to flying. the knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53969">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53969" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi people.. ok heres my problem.... i keep hearing about these little credit card type of things which detect ir light.... i believe that you have to 'charge them up' under normal (visible) light and then if they are exposed to ir light they glow or something like that... i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england, but alas i live in australia. could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here, and if so where??? and how much??? also are they really commonly avaliable in the states, and if so, then how much are they and who sells them (maybe if i cant get one here, i'll write to one of the companies over seas..) anyway.... thanks in advance... 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53970">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53970" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i built a little project using the radio shack 5vdc relays to switch audio. i got pretty bad 'clicks' when the thing switched. is there a good relay/relay circuit that i can use for switching audio, so that there will be *no* noise of any kind on the audio lines. i missed the first part of this thread; are you switching line level or speaker level audio? if line level, there's a single chip 4x1 *stereo* audio switch available that switches 4 two-channel inputs into 1 two-channel output, and also has a mute function, all controllable with ttl inputs. lm1037, i think? if speaker level, never mind. :( phil torre (ptorre@u.washington.edu) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53972">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53972" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i just bought a new portable cd player for the office, and i notice that it proudly proclaims "8 times oversampling" on the box. now while i think i understand what oversampling is (the rate of discrete "samples" exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor), i don't understand this "8 times" business... it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player (was it really 10 years ago?!), the specs said "4 times" ... could someone please tell me whether i'm getting senile? if i'm not, then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate? the data is only ever read once (barring mistracks and such, of course), and eventually gets turned into 44.1 khz, 16 bit, two channel data. oversampling takes two discrete data points, and interpolates n-1 points between them for n times oversampling. when i asked, people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation, but significantly more you are quite correct in your understanding. the filtering is not interpolation, as that would distort the frequency content of the signal you are listening to. generally, these players run the samples thru an all-pass filter network. i have done this for ecg waveforms from a person's heart, and the effect is rather spooky. it actually reconstructs peaks that weren't there (correctly, too!) and fills in the gaps with the properly computed values, just as if there had been a real sample taken at that point. i use a cpu to do all the math. it takes a decent (but not unreasonable) amount of cpu time to do this. you can keep up with things in realtime if you write efficient code. in case you care, the filtering method uses an fir (finite impulse response) filter. i'd guess that cd makers use the same kind of method. anybody out there know the real answer? i'd say that they use a tapped delay line with resistor/op-amp weighting to accomplish the filtering. this strikes me as the most cost effective method for volume production runs. anyway, then, the purpose of oversampling is to move the "effective" sampling rate up to n times 44.1 khz, in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters. for the same quality filter, higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters, whereas for the same price filter, higher oversamplings lets you build better filters. so, assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same, oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce _slightly_ better sound due to anti-alias actually, i think the only reason they do this is so that they can say that they have a marketting gimic. i would guess that it is acutally cheaper to filter an oversampled signal than not. you can use sloppier components and give the filter a roll-off that isn't so sharp. it's too bad that they charge more for something that (i think) is actually less costly to build. i seriously doubt that the filters cost the same but are better. they are built to a price spec, and that spec says "cheap as possible!". ---joel kolstad dave mcmahan mcmahan@netcom.com 37n 17.382 121w 59.190 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53973">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53973" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i'm wondering if it's possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter(s) and receiver? seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance. this would be for short distances (2000 ft), and i would need to have accuracy of 6 inches, or so. how about measuring vertical distance as well, any chance - or am i getting what frequencies would be best for this? or does matter? sorry if i'm "mucking up" the network with one of those questions best answered by bill willis via us mail... and i apologize for not being "tuned-in" to electronics. :-) r.g. carpenter, ph.d., p.e. (sorry... only an me) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53975">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53975" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 motorola has a good app note on a 10 band equalizer using a 56000 dsp. it could be easily ported to an ariel board, or even a turtle beach 56k development system. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53977">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53977" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 can anybody recommend a good, application-oriented beginner's reference to rf circuits? i am pretty good on theory & know what different types of modulation mean, but don't have a lot of practical experience. a book detailing working circuits of different types (modulation, power, frequency, what is legal, what is not, et cetera), would be very helpful. well, you might try the a.r.r.l.'s license study guides. for example, my advanced class study guide has lots and lots of good rf and electronics theory in it. i would imagine the other books are good too. -- anthony s. pelliccio, kd1nr/ae // yes, you read it right, the // -- system @ garlic.sbs.com // man who went from no-code // -----------------------------------// (thhhppptt!) to extra in // -- flame retardent sysadmin // exactly one year! // -- this is a calm .sig! -- 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53979">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53979" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 btw, i have seen irleds with outputs up to 6 watts...honest, 6 watts. i don't have the book here at work so i can't recall the company name. the 6 watter ain't cheap, around $108 but if you want some power, mamamia, that's pretty hot. they also have a 4 watt, a 2 watt and a 1 watt device in their line, and will sell small quan. to individuals. if you are interested, i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info. you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp. 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 91320 805 499-0335 the make some amazing irled's. the really high-powered devices are arrays of 3, 6, or 9, led's on a to-66 header. the 9-chip model puts out 6.5 watts in response to a 5 amp, 10 us. pulse at a .5% duty cycle. i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems. i would also be interested in the application here. i work with a dance and technology program, and want to build something to track dancers on a 30 foot wide stage from 50 feet away. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53983">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53983" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i gather by off-shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built by blue-fin tuna's who are into that squid-fi sound? (i agree on that one). my adcom 555 preamp did sound better after installing the famous "running the chips class "a" resistor mod", and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass,, too bad the factory could not make em sound better,, but better sound, unfortunately, does not appear to be a priority with adcom, else the mods would neither have been necessary, nor would they have improved what was already touted as superlative state-o-d-art le'sound. i really want to hear from all those people out there who have traded up from an sp9ii (even an sp3a!) to a gfp-555/etc., or maybe from those that have dumped their forte' amps for a gfa-555/etc.... i am one of those folks who traded up from a 500 to an audio research sp9 ii! am i enjoying it? yes! the sp9 does sound better... but at a price. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53985">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53985" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i have an eprom blower made by logical devices and the model name is prompro-8, but i have lost the manual. does anyone have a spare manual that they would like to sell ? declan hughes hughes@ral.rpi.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53986">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53986" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 there is a file at the simtel archives called adda10.zip i think that is for dsp. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53988">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53988" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 when constructing active filters, odd values of resistor are often required (i.e. something like a 3.14 k ohm resistor).(it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded). is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance, given fixed resistors of the standard 12 values per decade?.(1, 1.2,1.5,1.8,2.2,3.3 etc ). it is a common enough problem, yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx+ry//rz gives rq, starting with q and finding prefered values x,y and z. ian h 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53991">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53991" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments? pink noise is a random signal with more low-frequency components than white noise. if you look at the frequency spectrum of white noise at a frequency analyzer, you will find that the spectrum power density is flat, which means that every frequency is present in the noise signal. often pink noise is obtained from white noise by integrating of low-pass filtering a white noise signal. therefore pink noise contains much more low-frequency components. the effect of pink noise is sometimes used to simulate thunder or roaring animals. an additional low-pass filter with variable cutoff frequency will explain you why. enjoy it. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53993">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53993" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 what is the difference between vertical and horizontal? gravity? doesn't gravity pull down the photons and cause a doppler shift or something? (just kidding!) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53995">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53995" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games. many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them. thanx in advance. hap controls just outside chicago sells these. andrew macrae actually, it's happ, and some of their equipment can be found in the parts express catalog (1-800-338-0531). they show switches for $2, joysticks for $13 and trackballs for $80. they also have pinball parts. you're right, it is happ controls, inc., but you can buy direct from them. i don't have a phone number with me, but anyone interested in it can email me for it. i don't remember their button price, but the joystick price was $8.95 per dozen at last check. should be slightly higher for one or two, but cheaper than parts express. as for the trackballs, i don't know the new price either. but i can sell you rebuilt arcade trackballs for $50. that includes new rollers and new bearings (when nec.). i also have a pile of used joysticks and buttons that i would be willing to sell. please email to address below if interested. --donnie ///////////////////please note the new email address below//////////////////// donald barnes | "coach, i'm having blackouts." barnes@yoda.csc.ncsu.edu | computer engineering | "kind of a nice break in the day, isn't it sam." n.c. state university | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53996">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53996" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 how does the radio electronics free information cards work. do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a that depends entirely upon the advertiser whose number you circled. radio electronics compiles all of the cards, then each advertiser gets a computer printout of the names and addresses of all of the readers who circled their number. some magazines also provide the data on self-adhesive labels, and the really big magazines provide the data on computer disk. the advertiser decides what to do with the data they get. you will notice that the radio electronics information card (commonly called a "bingo card" in the industry) includes lines for a company name and a business phone number. my guess would be that the big, national advertisers make a distinction between hobbiests and professionals as best they can. for example, if you include motorola as your company and include a business phone (and a mail stop), tektronics will probably send you a copy of their hard-bound catalog and have a sales engineer call you about a week later. if you leave it blank, odds are they will send you a slick brochure and direct you to a local retail outlet. medium and small companies are more likely to send you th e whole catalog. and then some companies, like digikey or jameco, have nothing to mail out accept the catalog. a couple of other interesting points about bingo cards: free, industry magazines like edn and such also log your card to their computer. they use the information at least three ways. they note that you really do read the magazine and are more likely to continue your subscription or push you, through repeated mailings, to re-subscribe. they also compile how many people requested which data for their marketing demographics. this way thay can tell a prospective advertiser that "23% of readers requesting data were interested in capacitors." and finally, some magazines rent lists of readers who request certain information. for example, tektronics can rent a list of everyone who requested information about test equipment other than tektronic's, in the past 6 months. the other point, in the data the advertiser receives, many magazines include how many items you circled on the card. if they want, the advertiser can attempt to cull out the "literature collectors" from the serious potential customers. "can you say qualified sales leads? i thought you could." what's the best way for a hobbiest to deal with bingo cards? never circle more than 8 number on the card. if you want more than 8 items, use the second card and mail it a couple of weeks later. if you are really, really serious and you really, really want the information, call the advertiser and ask! this will also cut about 15 days off the the response time. virtually everyone takes a voice on the phone more seriously than data on a computer printout. to help insure you keep getting a trade magazine that you're not really "qualified" for, send in a bingo card at least every other month and circle two or three numbers. include a business name and phone number, even if it's your house. advertisers almost never call. john schuch publisher of: the arizona high-tech times the arizona electrical journal the arizona hvac news (all of which have bingo cards) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53998">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53998" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi all, i think the subject says it all - does anyone know how to take the rgb/h/vsync from a standard vga connector and record them on video tape?? any help is appreciated! mark j cargill why?? i have a program for the pc that i want to videotape so that i can show people how the program works at a presentation i am giving. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics53999">
<answer instance="sci.electronics53999" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate. my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal. i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product. any help would be greatly appreciated. wayne dawe (pick a path, any path but don't send me wayne@r-node.hub.org anything bigger than 15k) wayne@r-node.gts.org wayne@r-node.pci.on.ca wayne@r-node.uucp 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54000">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54000" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 trans-am electronics, canal street near 7th ave -- lots of surplus type they've been out of busines for years. several other electronics or "surplus" type places are still on canal not any more. about 2 years ago they all closed. when ramco/electronics city closed, it took weeks and many dumpsters to clear everything out (so i heard). there are a few places that sell connectors and phone wires, but no chips, capacitors or discrete stuff. sylvan/wellington is still on broadway and canal, but they're not cheap, and not surplus. it's mostly a tv repairman's store. -- jeffrey jonas jeffj@panix.com jeffrey jonas jeffj@panix.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54001">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54001" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 yeesh, you will be nailing those irleds. may i suggest getting your mitts on the siemens sfh484-2 irled? this unit is designed to take some big current pulses if you can get your duty cycle down a bit. it will output nearly a watt (975 mw) with real short duty cycle times. (nice thing about the sfh484-2 is that it is cheap. i got mine for about 50 cents a piece, even though i had to buy 100 of them....) are you saying that you have some extras that you would like to do some cost recovery on? i may be interested. i think for practical and cost reasons i am limited to envelope detection so that leaves me with only increasing the output power and increasing the optical gain at the receiver as methods to extend range. btw, i have seen irleds with outputs up to 6 watts...honest, 6 watts. i don't have the book here at work so i can't recall the company name. the 6 watter ain't cheap, around $108 but if you want some power, mamamia, that's pretty hot. they also have a 4 watt, a 2 watt and a 1 watt device in their line, and will sell small quan. to individuals. if you are interested, i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info. yes i'm interested in the company name. i have access to an extensive data book collection. with that kind of power, are we getting into an area where eye safety is getting to be a problem. now, as for the position detector, you might try eltec in florida. phone number listed in the 92/93 etid is 904-253-5328. they seem like nice people. their specialty is passive infrared detection devices, so they might be able to help you out. they are a long way from me but they might be a better source than i can find around here. i'm curious about your applications if you don't mind saying. the device sounds like it could be useful in a lasertag game, although you'd need to up your carrier signal concept to 58.8 khz...... i'm keeping my application confidential for now. raising the frequency should be no problem, in fact one respondent to my question said that i may not have to mimic the 50% duty cycle normally used by ir detector chips. stan burton (dnd/crad/dres/dtd/mss/agcg) sburton@dres.dnd.ca (403) 544-4737 dre suffield, box 4000, medicine hat, ab, canada, t1a 8k6 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54002">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54002" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp. 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 91320 805 499-0335 the make some amazing irled's. the really high-powered devices are arrays of 3, 6, or 9, led's on a to-66 header. the 9-chip model puts out 6.5 watts in response to a 5 amp, 10 us. pulse at a .5% duty cycle. i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems. jeez, that should do it. i would also be interested in the application here. i work with a dance and technology program, and want to build something to track dancers on a 30 foot wide stage from 50 feet away. very interesting application, controlled lighting and environment, moderate distances ... might be more interesting than my application. just a thought, you could use a roof mounted ir sender, similar in operation to a tv remote control that tells each persons coded ir pulser to send a pulse. a hamamatsu detector, as was mentioned in a previous message in this thread, would give the current position. store and collate this on a computer and you could replay the movements on the screen. interesting! stan burton (dnd/crad/dres/dtd/mss/agcg) sburton@dres.dnd.ca (403) 544-4737 dre suffield, box 4000, medicine hat, ab, canada, t1a 8k6 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54003">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54003" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 when constructing active filters, odd values of resistor are often required (i.e. something like a 3.14 k ohm resistor).(it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded). is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance, given fixed resistors of the standard 12 values per decade?.(1, 1.2,1.5,1.8,2.2,3.3 etc ). it is a common enough problem, yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx+ry//rz gives rq, starting with q and finding prefered values x,y and z. since you're worrying about the third decimal place, i assume you're using 1% tolerance resistors and capacitors? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54005">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54005" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 how does the radio electronics free information cards work. do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a it varies. you may get a catalog or price list from the advertiser, or if the ad was a specific product - a slec sheet on that product or line. mike schuster | schuster@panix.com | 70346.1745@compuserve.com ------------------- | schuster@shell.portal.com | genie: mschuster 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54006">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54006" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a "copy protection faq" ? i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative! *i* will volunteer to ask some of the questions, if you will provide the answers :-) hey, now will you stop encouraging him? copy protection only serves one pur- pose: to keep the honest buyer from making (legal) backup copies. it will definitely not stop any pirates. if you want to protect you soft, supply a good documentation and support. this is imho the *only* way of effectively protecting software. there are several types of copy protection, and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy. the simplest and virtually fool-proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed on (some sort of checksum, serial number, whatever) so a copy put on a different machine (not installed from original disks) will not work. the program is definitely backupable, if restored to the same machine (depends on the programmer... don't use a disk drive characteristic!) if the user did an upgrade to the machine, he/she should reinstall all programs any way. no document look-up, no disk wear-and-tear! i did not say that the originals would allow only one install. the user's conscience should do that. i know, i'll get flamed for this... but with the increasing number of "casual" users who either unknowingly or don't care about the software copyrights (it's the truth. i have "friends" who ask me for copies of my latest games all the time, and when i refused, they went after somebody else.), casual pirating is becoming more of a problem. some sort of copy protection will discourage the casual copying. i've seen what some of my "friends" dug up somewhere... latest and the greatest games, all cracked, within days of actual release! you know how many bytes you need to change in x-wing to disable the quiz? two! yes, two! (and don't ask me which ones they are.) determined pirates are unstoppable, given enough time, but their results do not spread that far, since pirate boards are not that well-known, and easily tracked once found by authorities. it is the "casual" pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage. what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup "registered to xxxxx -- address, city, state zip" and disables the above. two benefits: 1) encourages registration, 2) cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable, because if the patch's registration message is encrypted, it will be quite hard to change, and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands, and thus violated their license agreement. this way, the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort (who does major upgrades to their computer frequently?) as only problem they have is they won't be able to restore to another computer. the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights, and can restore to different machines. on the other hand, the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be. if this user's copy was found to be somewhere it was not supposed to be, we know who has broken their license agreement. of course, a hacker can break that eventually, but that's not the point, is it? --kasey chang 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54007">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54007" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind of encryption in the process, this "change two bytes here" thing would go right out the window. michael chen | from the depths of our most lucid horrors | | spring our fond hopes and pure desires... | mchen@cs.psu.edu | except what comes from hell! :-) 7/23/92 | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54009">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54009" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 hi people.. ok heres my problem.... i keep hearing about these little credit card type of things which detect ir light.... i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england, but alas i live in australia. could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here, and if so where??? and how much??? edmund scientific company 101 e. glouchester pike barrington, nj, 08007-1380 (609) 573-6250 the card is on page 15 of the last catalog i got. the cost ranges from $19.00us to $80.00us, depending on size and range of wavelengths the card responds to. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54010">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54010" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i was wondering, what copy protection techniques are avaliable, and how effective are they? has anyone have any experience in this area? with highest regards, babak sehari. uh oh... umm, there are a number of copy protection schemes. some involve modifying the physical media, and some involve encryption schemes, &c. all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time. i recall, however, near monthly releases of new ways to "crack" the copy protection scheme of the latest releases. the fact is, none of them are completely secure, or anywhere near it. some are more or less difficult to crack, and some have already been cracked. i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i incidentally, the "uh oh..." at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack. the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers, many of which include breaking the law, or at least addressing it (from one side or the other.) i have written a program and i want to market it. i would like certain degree of protection, since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations. i know laser hole burning method, and hardware key method, however, my software is going to cost only $15.00, so i can not afford that. also, at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software. well, i guess say upto %20 illigal copying is ok by me. however, i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software. off course, i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying, since they can develope a better program anyway. with highest regards, babak sehari. one of the most popular methods of course is the password check where they ask you for a word from page x, line y, and word z, but this is pitifully simple to remove unless you throw some checksums into the main part of your program, and some self-rewriting code to confuse some people. also, make sure that your program can not be run out a debugger. another method of course is to not even make bad sectors on the original disk, just write a certain key to a certain unallocated sector. to help you here, you also must do the code protection schemes mentioned in the first paragraph. make sure you also fill the rest of the unallocated parts of the disk with garbage as well, or they (wanna be crackers) can just look for the junk in some random sector. like you mentioned, there are the laser holed disks and hardware keys, but they are both expensive and a pain in the butt for the end-user, which you is the opposite of what you want. another configuration that can be used is to save the configuration of the machine that it is being installed to in the most undecipherable format you can think of. if the program does not find that this is the same system, it requests being installed by the original disk again. the original disk should be encrypted, compacted, have many sectors that should be checked, and anything else you can think of to make sure that the original cannot be copied. once again, you must put code-encryption, self-rewriting code, and multiple crc checks in the program to make sure that it does not get changed. among other things, this also protects your program from virii. if the program detects a change in its code, tell the user that a virus has been detected in the program. tell them the program is "virus secure", and remember, you have helped the world kill some pirating and kill some viruses. feel good. i hope that i have helped. have fun. knock some cracking out (well, you can't do it, everything that can be written can be cracked, but you'll piss'em off in the process!). goodbye. what is the program that will be sold? george gruschow death do you gronk. ag625@yfn.ysu.edu ggruscho@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54011">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54011" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 kennehra@logic.camp.clarkson.edu (rich"theman"kennehan) says: hi. i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper, and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at 1/200ths of a second. is that possible? i thought the take a look over in alt.folklore.urban. there is a thread about subliminal messages on tv. the fact that subliminal messages don't work aside, an image can't be flashed on a tv screen fast enough to not be noticed. well, yes and no. the _image_ can't be on the screen less than 1/30 of a second, but a _mixture_ of images that's about 90% of the field that was supposed to be there and 10% of the 'subliminal' addition could be overlaid for one field, producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for 1/300 second. ..although, like the previous poster, i have to reserve my doubts about the effectiveness of said discrete image in steering my subconscious around .. <bgb> lihan@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu / the only reason the world hasn't (really bruce bostwick) / dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas / murphy's law also applies to murphy. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54013">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54013" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult, if not impossible, to answer. what exactly do you want to know? do you need a good one for a project you are working on? how secure must it be? are you trying to crack one that someone else has used? i can probably make suggestions, assuming the activity is strictly legal. (in general, it is a bad idea, legally, to tamper with copy protection. it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of (being as they are copy protected,) which can be devestating.) do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications, and are merely curious? please clear up those questions, and i'll try to help as much as i may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a "copy protection faq" ? i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative! *i* will volunteer to ask some of the questions, if you will provide the answers :-) ketil albertsen that's great. read my article. edit out the personal formality, and save. george gruschow death do you gronk. ag625@yfn.ysu.edu ggruscho@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54015">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54015" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 can anyone point me to a cross compiler and/or assembler for the motorola 68008, hosted by a pc compatible. preferable free or shareware. also does anyone know of a gnu cc port to this chip. thanks in advance. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54016">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54016" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for a 20/40 mhz scope, in good condition. please email me or call me at (713)280-2788. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54017">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54017" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england, but alas i live in australia. could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here, and if so where??? and how much??? also are they really commonly avaliable in the states, and if so, then how much are they and who sells them (maybe if i cant get one here, i'll write to one of the companies over seas..) anyway.... thanks in advance... i got mine for about 7 bucks at radio shack. the instructions do say to expose it to light for a while, but mine doesn't seem to require very much to make it work. i just wish i could get a big sheet of the stuff, abouit 12" x 12" for a reasonable price.....it isn't cheap, from what i've seen. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54018">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54018" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp. 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 91320 805 499-0335 the make some amazing irled's. the really high-powered devices are arrays of 3, 6, or 9, led's on a to-66 header. the 9-chip model puts out 6.5 watts in response to a 5 amp, 10 us. pulse at a .5% duty cycle. i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems. yeah! that's the guys! i would also be interested in the application here. i work with a dance and technology program, and want to build something to track dancers on a 30 foot wide stage from 50 feet away. yeah, that sounds a lot like lasertag anyway.... :-) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54020">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54020" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 if you want to buy one, try radio shack, or else a tv repair shop can probably order one. btw - the carrier frequency is 40 khz, and each different tv/vcr/cable box/stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment. some tv's, including my rca set at home, uses simple carriers which i think run between 32 and 36 or 38 khz. there is no tone decoding in it. all one has to do to piss the thing off :-) is just hook an irled up to a variable oscillator and tune through. wreaks all kinds of havoc. :-) similarly, my vcr remote changes channels on my cable box. always seems to change the cable box to channel 5 when you do the pause/play. soooo, some things do have some overlap to them. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54022">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54022" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 [stuff deleted] also, at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software. well, i guess say upto %20 illigal copying is ok by me. you should be clear in your mind what your goal is. two possible goals are (1) maximizing you income from your program, and (2) minimizing the number of illegal copies which get created. accomplishing (2) doesn't usually accomplish (1). most vendors have concluded that copy protection reduces the number of normal legitimate sales by far more than it increase sales by virtue of changing 'copiers' to 'purchasers', and hence merely reduces revenue. most legitimate buyers nowadays (including me) have had bad experiences with copy protected products (e.g., hard to make a legitimate backup, incompatabilties when new system on system upgrade, etc.), and they won't touch them with a ten foot pole. wally bass 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54024">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54024" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
<context>
 i'm wondering if it's possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter(s) and receiver? yes. it's called radar. well, actually not quite. both radar and radio-altimeters measure distances by measuring the time required to transmit a signal, then receive its reflection from a target. radar generally uses pulses, while radio altimeters use either pulses or a modulated continuous-wave transmission. in the case of the latter, highly accurate distance measurement can be made. as an example, the original bendix ala-52 radio altimeter was accurate to 1/8 foot at 2500 feet altitude. note, however that this is a different method of measuring than the poster originally asked about. the problem with gaining accurate measurements between a transmitter and a seperate receiver is that you need a highly accurate time base which starts at the receiver at the exact instant the transmitter triggers. this cannot be wire connected, since radio waves will actually travel faster in free-space (air, in this case) than wire (the difference is called the velocity factor of the cable). so you need to resort to a common timebase that is automatically corrected for distance, etc. something like a pll connected to a gps receiver should do the trick, triggering both the transmitter and receiver simultaneously. sound expensive? not too bad, but plan on spending a few bucks in both equipment and effort. why not go to a different method? surveyors use a laser-light system where again the reflection time is measured. why not try this? (sounds like something a p.e. should know about anyway ;-). seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance. this would be for short distances (2000 ft), and i would need to have accuracy of 6 inches, or so. this is actually highly inaccurate, since the power output of a transmitter varies from unit to unit, there are variances in the antenna and transmission line, and the receiver may also vary, both from unit to unit, and the same unit over time. you would need to continuously calibrate the entire system. with the radio altimeter this is also done, but since everything is located at one place, it is much easier to do. note especially that the time base for the r.a. receiver and transmitter is one unit also... depends on the environment: in a static environent such as a waveguide yes, in a dynamic environment (with objects moving about) the multipath kills this nope. fm capture effect says that the strongest signal wins. that is, unless the two interfering signals are seperated by more than 3 db in signal strength. this is the one problem that makes altimeters inaccurate at very low altitudes. signals bouncing off runways tend to be very strong... what frequencies would be best for this? or does matter? as high as possible to eliminate outside influence, and also to enhance attenuation of multipath signals. radio altimeters typically use frequencies around 4 ghz. hope this helps... jack brindle ham radio: wa4fib internet: jackb@mdd.comm.mot.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54026">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54026" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 )do you know what frequencies chanels 17 to 19 use and what is usually )allocated to those frequencies for broadcast outside of cable? 17 is air comm. 18 is amateur 19 is business and public service ken thompson n0itl ncr corp. peripheral products division disk array development 3718 n. rock road wichita ks 67226 (316)636-8783 ken.thompson@wichitaks.ncr.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54027">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54027" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc. software, hardware, whatever. please e-mail any info to koberg@spot.colorado.edu. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54028">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54028" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 you might want to get a disposible flash camera, shoot the roll of film, then take it apart (they're snapped together). we used a bunch of them at my wedding, but instead of sending the whole camera in, i just took the film out (it's a standard 35mm canister), and kept the batteries (they use one aa battery). sorry, i didn't keep any of the flash electronics. charlie brett - ft. collins, co 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54029">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54029" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hopefully this should sort it all out .... not bad for 9 quid (normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates, but what is a quid, how does it relate to the british pound (or whatever it's called) and what is that in american dollars??? :-) thanks! mark s. underwood ee student, university of kentucky lab assistant, boyd hall microlab (a tiny little division of uk library microlabs) e-mail: msunde01@mik.uky.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54030">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54030" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed "in series with the tip or ring lines" of the phone wire. which ones are those? suppose i am holding a regular phone wire, such that the little plastic tooth (on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone) is facing down, and away from me. which of the 4 wires that i see is the "tip" and which is the "ring"? please reply to mlevin@husc8.harvard.edu. mike levin 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54032">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54032" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would appreciate very much the address and/or phone # of this company. they supposely make analog eeproms. thanks in 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54035">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54035" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there are several types of copy protection, and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy. the simplest and virtually fool-proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed (some sort of checksum, serial number, whatever) so a copy put on a machine (not installed from original disks) will not work. okay, so what do you do if some part of the machine (presumably the part on which the code number or whatever that the program has fixated itself upon goes bad, you replace that part, and now your program won't run because it's on a "different" computer??? this is, of course, assuming that the program uses something in rom (like the bios serial number, maybe?) and not a disk-based code number. obviously if the drive goes bad you'll be reinstalling the stuff anyway. i work in a computer lab which is part of the university microlab system. we have the wonderfully fun task of maintaining well over a hundred machines, both pc and macintosh, as well as administering a network of over 50 next machines. i personally am concerned only with a small lab with ten pc's and ten mac's. (i'm not the manager, but help him with admin often). imho, copy-protection schemes of any sort are nothing more than a major headache for the legitimate user. anyone who wants a copy of your program and doesn't care about legality will get a copy. period. "pirate board" or no pirate board. i too have "friends" who blatantly and quite successfuly "hack" copy protection schemes practically in their let's consider what goes on in our lab. almost daily we have at least one machine down, sometimes several, due to some goofball screwing up some setting or other on a piece of software. admittedly, we (being students, mostly) are not the world's most efficient and effective network administrators, but we try. keeping even the twenty machines that are (partly) my responsibility even vaguely looking and "acting" similar to the average user, and maintaining "behind-the-scenes" consistency is a real headache, but not so bad a headache as trying to remember twenty different folder locations of norton utilities when some guy trashes his often we have hardware problems at peak "business" times and have to do some parts-swapping to get stuff working temporarily. . . . well, i'll cut to the chase and quit boring y'all . . .. the point is, often we have to re-install software and copy configuration files etc. from machine to machine. by far the easiest way we have found to do this is to get one machine working exactly the way we want to, then copy the complete setup of this machine to the other nine (of that machine's type). this ensures us that (for at least ten minutes) we have ten identical machines to work with. having them networked simplifies this considerably, as our major packages (wordperfect, windows, etc.) are all network versions and thus only one copy to mess with. often, however, we need to install a package requested by some instructor to one, some, or all of the machines for a special project. this is usually a hand-written or shareware,etc. program similar to what i believe the original poster was asking about. the few we have had with "copy protection" schemes have caused nothing but nightmares for us to maintain in short, don't waste your time with a copy protection scheme. it's sort of like outlawing guns. the criminals will get your program anyway, and you will only be hurting the legitimate, honest user. write a good user's guide and tech manual, whatever else for your program (please do this regardless of whether you copy protect the thing!!!), and only distribute the manual to licensed users. jack the price to cut your losses, but please take a cue from the major companies (who can admittedly afford the costs of illegal copies far better than you) and don't burden the legitimate user with a "copy protection" scheme! sorry for the tirade, but it's been a long day here . . .. :-) mark s. underwood ee student, university of kentucky lab assistant, boyd hall microlab (a tiny little division of uk library microlabs) e-mail: msunde01@mik.uky.edu the program is definitely backupable, if restored to the same machine (depends on the programmer... don't use a disk drive characteristic!) if the did an upgrade to the machine, he/she should reinstall all programs any no document look-up, no disk wear-and-tear! i did not say that the originals would allow only one install. the user's conscience should do that. i know, i'll get flamed for this... but with the increasing number of "casual" users who either unknowingly or don't care about the software copyrights (it's the truth. i have "friends" who ask me for copies of my latest all the time, and when i refused, they went after somebody else.), pirating is becoming more of a problem. some sort of copy protection discourage the casual copying. i've seen what some of my "friends" dug somewhere... latest and the greatest games, all cracked, within days of release! you know how many bytes you need to change in x-wing to the quiz? two! yes, two! (and don't ask me which ones they are.) pirates are unstoppable, given enough time, but their results do not that far, since pirate boards are not that well-known, and easily tracked once found by authorities. it is the "casual" pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage. what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup "registered to xxxxx -- address, city, state zip" and disables the two benefits: 1) encourages registration, 2) cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable, because if the patch's registration message is encrypted, it will be quite hard to change, and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands, and thus violated their license agreement. this way, the legitimate users who does not register will experience discomfort (who does major upgrades to their computer frequently?) as problem they have is they won't be able to restore to another computer. the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and gains full rights, and can restore to different machines. on the other the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be. if this user's copy was found to be somewhere it was supposed to be, we know who has broken their license agreement. of a hacker can break that eventually, but that's not the point, is it? --kasey chang 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54036">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54036" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 one other thing... there are bubblejets, and then there are bubblejets. there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output (such as hp's dinky little bubblejet), whereas most produce really good looking output (such as hp's deskjets). ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets. ** i am considering either an inkjet or bubble jet printer. i've seen inkjet printers and i was impressed with the near lazer quality. i have heard a lot of bad things about the cheaper bubble-jet printers. does the ink smudge very easily and take a long time to dry ? t 3/4 c2 l1(s) hbl d- a w+ c- y e++ g f t+ k++ s++ m1+ * graham wilson * lsg001@cck.coventry.ac.uk * * ll.b. law iii * coventry university * s8 b+ g- l-- y+ z/ n-- o++ x+ a- u+ v- j++ 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54037">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54037" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 can somebody tell me what kind of mov's are most useful for a computer surge protector? radio shack have 2 types, both rated 130v, one for a 10a current and the other for 20a. on the other hand, commercial surge protectors i have seen claim a clamping voltage of 330v-400v, which seems to me in imply a rated voltage of about 250v (250v * sqrt(2.)=353). what is the right kind? while at it, ow important is really the emi/rfi module? is there really any noticable level of such noise in the power line? please- e-mail to me, as this group has too much volume for me to be able to follow. thanks! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54041">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54041" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there is or was a microwave tower next to florida's turnpike, and you could watch the cars hit the breaks as they came in sight of it every morning... funny . . . i and most of the detector-owning friends i have, are generally able to *remember* such things as nearby microwave towers and radar detectors going off in exactly the same spon every day . . .. i know on i-64 at the grayson, ky exit, there's a store just off the side of the road (think it's a liquor store . . .) with what must be a security system that would make most federal prisons proud. it's the only thing i've ever driven by (besides a cop) that puts my whistler in "oh my god he's right behind you!!!!" mode . . .. i simply ignore the detector and use my eyes when i drive by that store . . . 40 seconds later, all's quiet on the front and no problem. mark s. underwood ee student, university of kentucky lab assistant, boyd hall microlab (a tiny little division of uk library microlabs) e-mail: msunde01@mik.uky.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54043">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54043" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ** for my computer law module i have been asked to write a computer contract for the supply of computer software to a business. the software is being especially written for the company. would anyone, per chance happen to have a copy of a computer contract on their system which they could mail me. if anyone has a computer contract but it contains sensitive material then i can assure them that it will remain confidential and i will not pass it on, or allow anyone else to view it. t 3/4 c2 l1(s) hbl d- a w+ c- y e++ g f t+ k++ s++ m1+ * graham wilson * lsg001@cck.coventry.ac.uk * * ll.b. law iii * coventry university * s8 b+ g- l-- y+ z/ n-- o++ x+ a- u+ v- j++ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54045">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54045" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was just wondering one thing, actually two. ( i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject) why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead (totally unuseable) when stored on a concrete floor? i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year, *to preserve them* and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work, but they act like the two terminals are shorted. i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that, 'cause it ruins them, but he couldn't tell me why. camter28@astro.ocis.temple.edu i am not a battery expert, but from recent reading, a lead acid battery will self discharge at a relatively high rate, and if stored in a discharged state, will develop a condition i think is called sulfation. in storage, either the electrolyte should be removed and replaced for use (fat chance i'd ever do that at home), or the battery should be stored on a trickle charge. i have also (i think) read that the condition may be reversable if hooked up to a current limited charging circuit fro a long period of time. the refernce i remember is to use c/50 (where c is the amp hours) as the charging circuit, and leave it hooked up for weeks. some of this may only apply to gel type cells, but i suspect the same applies to the liquid richard dell 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54047">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54047" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc. software, hardware, whatever. please e-mail any info to koberg@spot.colorado.edu. try rec.radio.packet _______ ______ / / / / michael a. de kraker / /______ / / georgia state university 404-651-2390 / ___ / / / internet:regmad@gsusgi2.gsu.edu /_______/ ______/ /_______/ bitnet :regmad@gsuvm1 packet:kd4fkw@w4qo to iterate is human, to recurse devine 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54049">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54049" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the atari 2600 used a 6502 cpu, just like their entire 8-bit line (400, 800,1200,1400, 1440, 130xe, 65xe computers, as well as the 5200 game machine). wrong, it has a 6507. the 2600 had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia's for the joysticks. it had one custome chip (not an asic in the sense that word is now understood): the tia (sometimes known as the 6526, although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter.) tia stands for television interface adapter, and it handles sound, paddles and the minimal video hardware the 2600 possessed. there was also a standard 6532 ram, i/o, timer (riot), plus a voltage regulator and (if memory serves) a 555 timer. that's all. later model 2600 might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci, as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years. not according to the servicing documentation i have here. the 2600 did not change intenally very much at all. additionally, i think the 2600 used 2k, 4k, and up to 8k of rom for their games. roms were mapped into the upper 4k of the 6507's address space. 2k and 4k games were fine, but later 8k and 16k games needed bank switching. atari (and others) made much of these "huge" cartridges. i have no idea how much ram it had to work with, but i would hazard a guess of 2 or 4k ram. wrong, it had 128 bytes of ram from the riot. this was multiply mapped into both page 0 (pseudo-registers) and page 1 (stack), and also throughout the bottom 4k of memory. tia registers also sat in this address space. as 128 bytes of ram was somewhat limiting, some later cartridges also carried ram themselves, which was interesting as atari had provided no write line to the cart. this was managed by mapping the reads from ram into one address range, and the writes into another, but all the time this scheme ate into the *very* scarce rom address space. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54050">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54050" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 one way to make cheap trimmable resistors is to use a high-wattage carbon composition resistor, and saw a notch in it with a triangular file. of course, you can only increase the resistance, not decrease it. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54052">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54052" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the simplest and cheapest soft uv bulb is an ar-1 argon bulb (or other argon bulb). it works like a neon bulb except it glows purple. it will cause stuff to fluoresce. it requires very little power, just a battery, an oscillator, and a step-up transformer to about 100 volts. electronic goldmine (602) 451-7454 has several uv lamps, both as pre-built units and kits. ask for their catalog. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54053">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54053" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hams can legally run up to 1500 watts. it is very unlikely, however, that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car. ham rigs not possible either. you'd need about a 300 amp alternator for just the amplifier. i can just see it. you need to slow down on a downgrade, so you hit the push to talk button. now, that indeed is possible. a good friend of mine is running about 1 kw pep from his car. yes, he does have a second alternator. yes, he calls the rig an "electronic brake" since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down. it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio, but i seem to remember that pep is actually 4x the "real" power. which makes 1kw pep actually around 250w. or was it 2x? i disremember. "effective transmitted power" is also "odd", in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry. which is why a tv station with a 50kw klystron might advertise a megawatt (if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower ;-). this is like sears hp ;-) though, 1500 real watts still isn't impossible. about 125-150a with a 12v alternator, less if the alternator produces higher voltages. it's only three horsepower (taking into account inefficiencies). you'll feel it when you hit the key. but not too much. chris lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; phone: canada 613 832-0541 psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54055">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54055" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would also be interested in the application here. i work with a dance and technology program, and want to build something to track dancers on a 30 foot wide stage from 50 feet away. could make for some interesting choreography... light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage, or by the number of dancers on stage. neat. you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage! can you tell us more about what you're doing? sounds like a very cool program. caleb strockbine cstrockb@ic.sunysb.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54056">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54056" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a couple applications for high speed data links 1__replacement of ultrasonic signal coaxial cables with fiber optic cable 2__applying fiber optic slip ring for 16 channel ultrasonics inspection system for candu reactor inspection 3__remote data link from ultrasonic pipeline inspection device including transfer of 16 channels via microwave or other higher speed transfer of ultrasonic data from remote inspection head. i would be happy to share sources...other info as acquired. please mail me or post here. .....this is a long term upgrade over the next years _+ thanks...... _/_/_/ truemner@mac-truemner.rd.hydro.on.ca _/ _/ _/ _/ ontario hydro.automated.ndt&welding.r&d _/_/_/ _/_/_/ (416)207 6380.fax:237 9285.toronto.canada _/ _/ 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54060">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54060" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc. software, hardware, whatever. / / / / michael a. de kraker [ question about packet radio deleted ] / /______ / / georgia state university 404-651-2390 how about rec.radio.amateur.packet? at least at my site, there is no general packet radio (i.e. non-amateur) newsgroup. that said, i would definately subscribe to r.r.a.packet if you want to learn about all aspects of amateur packet radio, at both the high and low ends. also, i would get the faq from the group, and then post any specific questions to that group. everything i could tell you is probably in the faq, and the people who really know what's going on all seem to be on r.r.a.packet (although they might be here too, you never know :) hope it helps... andy collins, kc6yey acollins@uclink.berkeley.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54063">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54063" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would expect that cd-rom software would not even need copy protection. as the program on a cd-rom would not fit onto a hard-drive, and it is impossible for the average (and even not-so-average) user to write to a cd-rom, copies of the software (that still work) could never be made. hmmm.. now that i think about it.. with a creative tsr, maybe disk-swapping could be used to simulate files on a single disk. you would need a tonne of disks though. there are many programs on cd-rom that fit on a harddisk, not all software is that big (but we're getting there :-)). guido klemans internet: rcstage1@urc.tue.nl valid until 16 may 1993 'listen very carefully, i will say this only ones.' michelle of the resitance 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54064">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54064" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the atari 2600 used a 6502 cpu, just like their entire 8-bit line (400, 800,1200,1400, 1440, 130xe, 65xe computers, as well as the 5200 game machine). wrong, it has a 6507. for those who would like to know, the 6507 was a 6502 without irq or nmi, and with only 13 address lines (giving 8k memory space). it had one custome chip (not an asic in the sense that word is now understood): the tia (sometimes known as the 6526, although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter.) tia stands for television interface adapter, and it handles sound, paddles and the minimal video hardware the 2600 possessed. didn't know about it being called the 6526 - thats the cia found in the commodore 64 (i don't believe this chip existed when the 2600 was around). the tia was mapped into the bottom 128 bytes of page 0, and shadowed in the bottom 128 bytes of page 1. to get an image on the screen, you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at, load bitmaps for this line into the 'sprite' registers, tell them what x positions to take, how many duplicates you wanted, etc, then do it all again for the next line. this took all of the processor's time during the visible portion of the there was also a standard 6532 ram, i/o, timer (riot), plus a voltage regulator and (if memory serves) a 555 timer. that's all. the ram was mapped into the top 128 bytes of page 0, and shadowed in page 1. the 6502 has a zero-page addressing mode on most instructions that is both shorter and faster than the normal ones, so it is important on a machine like this to have the scratchpad ram in page 0. unfortunately, it also wants its stack to be in page 1 (the stack pointer is 8 bits, and the high byte of the address is hardwired to 1). the iot section was mapped into page 2 somewhere. 2 8 bit i/o registers (can't remember if each bit could be independantly set to i or o like the 6522 and 6526), and 1(?) 8(?) bit timer with a programmable prescaler (i think this was some power of 2). there were no interrupts in the system, so many games would set up the timer at some known time, go away and do something else for a while, then sit and wait for the timer to run down. there was no logic in the box to do address decoding - the riot had at least 2 chip select pins (probably one active high, one active low), and i imagine the tia was much the same. various address lines were fed directly to chip selects. the 6507 likes to have rom right at the top of memory, so the 2600 had to use roms with active high chip selects - not exactly normal, so some cartriges had a 7404 in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select. john west 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54067">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54067" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does any one know where i can get a telecaption decoder module? need it to build a close caption decoder. 'wait till finals are over, that is when the fun really begins.' 'enjoy the sun while its still young and out there.' 'when one dreams of his home town, he is not wishing that everything could be as it was, but he wishes that he was still young to enjoy it all again.' 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54071">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54071" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 newsgroup: sci.electronics does anyone know the telephone number for the circulation department of 'electronic design' magazine? þ olx 2.1 td þ procontrol * kemptville, on * 04-22-93 9:35 pm 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54074">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54074" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 wrong, it has a 6507. for those who would like to know, the 6507 was a 6502 without irq or nmi, and with only 13 address lines (giving 8k memory space). yes, but still not a 6502 for those differences. same instruction set, of course. it had one custom chip (not an asic in the sense that word is now understood): the tia (sometimes known as the 6526, although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter.) tia stands for television interface adapter, and it handles sound, paddles and the minimal video hardware the 2600 possessed. didn't know about it being called the 6526 - thats the cia found in the commodore 64 (i don't believe this chip existed when the 2600 was around). yes, the same number, but an entirely different device. i should have qualified this further by stating that this was the pal version of the tia - i am not 100% sure that the ntsc tia would have a different number. the tia was mapped into the bottom 128 bytes of page 0, and shadowed in the bottom 128 bytes of page 1. to get an image on the screen, you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at, load bitmaps for this line into the 'sprite' registers, tell them what x positions to take, how many duplicates you wanted, etc, then do it all again for the next line. this took all of the processor's time during the visible portion of the does anyone on the net actually have details of the tia, as this is the only device i have not yet discovered details about? atari australia, when asked, claimed that their attempts to get the programmers documentation for the 2600 had failed, as the us head office had refused to provide it. to chip selects. the 6507 likes to have rom right at the top of memory, so the 2600 had to use roms with active high chip selects - not exactly normal, so some cartriges had a 7404 in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select. i saw a couple of cheaper devices with pn2222's and a couple of resistors hooked up as a cheap inverter. nasty, but workable, and cheaper than a 7404 inverter if labor costs almost nothing. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54076">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54076" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need to make a power supply that can take input from a cigarette lighter in a car (12v dc) and drive 7.5 volts at up to 3.0 amps. i know enough to know that a simple voltage divider with two resistors won't do it right. can such a thing be made from radio-shack-able parts without too much difficulty? p.s. i've looked for premade things like this at radio shack but none of it seems to go any higher than about 800ma. joel skelton -- north avenue trade school, dept. of round things gt4417a@prism.gatech.edu (ask for scooter technologies, and receive) see if radio shack has a national semiconductor adjustable voltage regulator, (national) part number: lm350t or lm350k. these devices are rated for an input to output differential of up to 35 volts @ 3 amps. digi-key corp. has these parts, as well as several other useful regulators. if you don't have their catalog, their phone number is: 1-800-344-4539. i can only guess that you may intend to recharge a 7.5 vdc nicad battery with this device, and if i'm right, you may want to look through some of the hobbiest books to get various ideas for battery charging circuits, first. if you get stuck, e-mail me your fax number, if you have one, and i'll send you some suggestions or schematics. e-mail: willisw@coe-nw.clemson.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54077">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54077" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i hate hard copy manuals, and would rather have all docs online - *not* because i want to copy the program, but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can't find. just mho, but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed (next to the desk in my dorm) and reference them while using the program full-screen. the windows help things come closest to good on-line documentation i've seen, but they generally aren't detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space (even compressed) which is at a premium on my system . . .. in fact, the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland's c++ compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed (in the lab, of course). i've got a shelf full of books to help me out when i'm stuck. :-) to each his own . . . :-) agree 100%, personally i cannot flip from page to page on a screen and retain information as easily as in the written page. off deeper end-> why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy? almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk, so you are left with the originals as your backups. i think its a waste of time, space, and money, as well as it makes it to tempting to "lend" out the backups. we've destroyed about six sets of original microsoft word for mac 5.0 and word for windows (may have been a bad batch of disks). don't have the faintest idea what happened to them, they just went bad. weren't stored near any magnetic fields or otherwise mistreated, indeed they were only used once. given this, and the massive headaches finding a working set of disks to fix some of the machines that periodically go down, i'd say having working backups is a godsend. i sure wish we'd had them (sometimes i think murphy's law holds true more often than newton's!!) when we needed them. i think it's sortof like snake antivenin. 99.995% of the time you have absolutely no use for it, but when you need it, boy do you ever need it! ditto's ... in fact .. at work, where things are dead if the backup is no good, i insist on having at least a 2 level backup system. it seems that whenever you have 2 good backups, you never need them, but if you don't have them, murphy guarantees that you'll suffer for it. i don't have backups of my originals at "home" but then my machine doesn't see anywhere near the use/abuse of these here at the lab, and so i consider it less of a risk. still, i usually make "working copies" of them when i install them and then eventually re-use these "working copies" for something else. . .. no flames intended - just my thoughts. just mine, too! :-) and mine of course. richard dell 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54078">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54078" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> the same thing happens to my car (citroen 2cv) -- damp gets under the |> bonnet (us: "hood") and shorts the spark-plugs to earth so it won't start. |> the solution (for the car) is to clean the plug leads and spray with |> wd-40 (moisture repellant). if damp *is* the problem, then storing the well, this is off-topic, but back in the days when i used to drive bangers i never found wd-40 to do anything that wiping with a dry cloth did'nt do. i think the effectiveness of wd-40 is a myth invented by the guy who owns the company. back in high school i used to work for a detailing company, and one of the services we offered was an engine cleaning (remove all that oil before you sell the car... ;-}). unfortunately, we did not have a high pressure washer so we would use one several miles from the shop. on more than one occasion after washing the engine, it would not start as water would have gotten under the distributor (i would put a plastic bag around it to try and minimize this), around the spark plug wires, etc and it would be nearly impossible to try and wipe all these areas down with a dry rag. the usual solution was to carry a can of wd-40, and when the car wouldn't start to spray all the likely areas and it would then start on the very first time. it may be a myth, but it certainly kept me from being stranded at a car wash... rodney radford || computer graphics/imaging sasrer@unx.sas.com || sas institute, inc. (919) 677-8000 x7703 || cary, nc 27513 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54081">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54081" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings. i've recently decided to chuck the linear regulators and learn the "black magic" art of switching power supplies... (before anyone flames me, i know, both have their place :-) anyways, i've built the basic up & down converters with pretty good results (>80% efficiency) but i'm running into problems when i try to design & build anything that puts out serious amps... i know it can be done (i have some 5v@200a guts on my bench) but something puzzles me: i'm using a simple choke as the storage element (basicly a toroid with a single winding) but all commercial models use transformers with many windings. i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error/feedback but some of the others seem to loose me... what are they for? better than that, anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of? i'd love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume :-) my other problems (in getting high amps & good efficiency) are 1) lack of sources of ideal components (calculated) and 2) limited knowledge of the whole topic... i'm doing this on my own (not school) mind you (in fact, i have yet to take any course that covers transistors ;-) so, is the answer to #1 the accumulation of dead commercial models and truning into a scavanger (not that it's not what i'm doing now...) and #2 getting & understanding schematics and a bit more of the [mind-boggling] theory? take care. p.s. my goal is 12v @ ~25a in (car battery) -> 250vac out and (on the other end) 250v -> +5vdc @ 5a, -5v @ 1a, +12vdc @8a and -12vdc @1a... the distance between the two will be more than 100 feet (of 14-16 gauge) but less than 300 feet. would like to have a working model in a year or so... :-) (do i have a chance to make it?) / filip "i'll buy a vowel" gieszczykiewicz. | best e-mail "fmgst+@pitt.edu" \ | all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only $0.99 so respond now!!!! | | i live for my ee major, winsurfing, programming, sca, and assorted dreams. | \ 200mb drive - linux has 100mb and ms-dos has 100mb. ms-dos is worried ;-) / 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54083">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54083" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was just wondering one thing, actually two. ( i hope that this is proper place to post this subject) why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead (totally unuseable) when stored on a concrete floor? i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the from the unheated garage this year, *to preserve them* and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work, but they act like the two terminals are shorted. i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that, 'cause it ruins them, but he couldn't tell me why. camter28@astro.ocis.temple.edu what happens is that (i heard this discussed on "northern exposure") there is a molecular juxtaposition of the molecules in the battery and the molecules in the concrete. this acts as an attractant to ufos (actually their crew members) and they arrive at the scene of the battery/concrete then they proceed to suck all the energy out of the batteries! remedy: set the battery on a nonconcrete floor. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54084">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54084" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just got caller-id (except bell calls it "call display" and didn't know what i was talking about when i asked for "caller-id"). i got the cheapest display box i could find, and hope to convert it to serial out. the chip used is an 18-pin dip marked "cdt 14-285" and "1473 9220". i presume the 9220 is the date. i'm hoping somebody out there knows something about this chip, to save me a very strange few hours hooked up to a scope, asking my friends to call me again and again. i'll post any interesting replies, and my experiences. -simon tooke simon@sco.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54085">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54085" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know the pin-outs for the 27c512 eprom?? i have bought several of them, none of which has come with the pin-outs! any info would be appreciated.... % sean kelly - sysop amizon bbs (312)594-1146 % % always looking for classic video games for the following systems: % % atari 2600-atari 5200-colecovision-atari 5200-intellivision-vectrex % 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54088">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54088" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> i built a little project using the radio shack 5vdc relays to switch |> audio. i got pretty bad 'clicks' when the thing switched. i was doing |> most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and |> nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks. |> my question is: |> is there a good relay/relay circuit that i can use for switching |> audio, so that there will be *no* noise of any kind on the audio lines. |> i will appreciate any advice or references to advice. also, exact part |> numbers/company names etc. for the relays will help! the first step is to make sure that there is no dc component, intentional or not, on the audio lines to be switched. if neither the output or input presents an unintentional dc level (let's say they're capacitively coupled), then putting a 22 k resistor from each input to ground, and from the output to ground is a good precaution against leakage in any coupling caps presenting a dc level that is guaranteed to cause a click. if the device presents an unintentional dc level that is from more than just coupling capacitor leakage, then you need to remove the dc before switching with coupling capacitors of your own. if you have more than one relay (each relay switching one input through to a common output), you can use make-before-break switching where for a brief instant both sources are connected during a switch change. this may mask the switch click. an audio switch that is clickless is made by taking a light bulb and making your own ersatz opto-isolator with a light-dependent resistor (ldr) sealed inside a piece of black heatshrink. many broadcast consoles use this older, but time-honored technique. claro actually makes a complete optisolator like this, but i don't have a part number handy. radio shack has a ldr grab-bag (276-1657) you might want to try. for a simple, solid state clickless switch that is cheap, you might try looking at the cd4066 analog switch that is commonly available (or its older predecessor, the 4016). again, the dc component must be removed prior to switching. other alternatives include jfet switches (both discrete and ic) and diode switching (which works relatively well, surprisingly). all the above, with their pitfalls and application tips could easily make a subject for a multi-page article. solid state switches may induce a click of their own when turned on due to charge being injected into the audio line through device capacitance when the control signal changes state. techniques to minimize this include lowering the impedance of the signal paths through the switch, differential switching, and slowing the risetime of the control pulse. with the 4016, cutting the click can be as simple as putting 10k - 47k resistors in series with the control pins. hope this helps at least get you started. dave medin phone: (205) 730-3169 (w) ssd--networking (205) 837-1174 (h) intergraph corp. m/s gd3004 internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com huntsville, al 35894 uucp: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin ******* everywhere you look (at least around my office) ******* * the opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54091">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54091" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video (vs. a blank screen) by monitoring the r,g, and b outputs of a graphics card. it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at 65 mhz, which would mean detecting a 15 ns pulse. it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen (about 300 mv) and a dim screen (say, around 310 mv). oh yes, it also needs to be my first circuit was a dismal failure. i used 3 compariators; each compariator had the + input going to one of the guns, the - input went to a reference created by a voltage divider(a potentiometer). the first problem was that the compariator was way too slow.. i needed to get several pixels in a row before it would fire the compariators, so i could have a whole screen full of text, but my the second problem is that there was more noise on the reference then the smallest difference between a blank screen and a dim screen. in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only 650 mv. i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work. there are faster compariators, but they are expensive, and require split supplies. i would need to replace my .49 quad compariator with three 1.89 compariators, and create a whole new power supply at this point, i think what i need is some sort of transistor circuit. transistors are fast and cheap and should do the trick... unfortunately, i am way out of my league when it comes to designing transistor circuits, so i am appealing to the net for help. any ideas, tips, circuits, pointers, references, etc. would be greatly oh yes, i only sample the output of this thing every second or so, so i don't need a fast response time at all, however, i haven't found a way to take advantage of that fact. thanks a lot for any help anybody might be able to give. of course, you will have my undying gratitude. steve verity steve verity + + ...maxed on midi + . + verity@jack.sns.com + .. + in order to get the 15 ns response time you need, you are better off going to an ecl slicer which can run off a single +5 or -5.2 v supply, you just need to bias or do some level shifting perhaps to get it in the range. check out the ecl 10k books for a simple cheap solution. dino@inqmind.bison.mb.ca the inquiring mind bbs, winnipeg, manitoba 204 488-1607 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54093">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54093" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 greetings.. i'm a novice in this area. i'm trying to gather info. on standard phone line settings. quick questions : if i just want to send out a beep over the phone lines, can i do it with some function generator & tie it up to one of those phone wires ?? which one of those wires should i connect to my dtmf chip as audio in ?? any help would be much appreciated.. thankx in advance - handy trisakti uc532838@mizzou1.missouri.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54094">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54094" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 one not-so-quick question to throw out there for you guys... for our class project, we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs: voltatge: adjustable from 1-12v current: *limited* at 1a voltage must stay within 2% of designated value for i from 0-1a ac ripple less than 5 mv (rms) of course, we can't just use an adjustable voltage, current-limiting regulator chip ;^) our problem is with the current limiting (i.e. we've found stuff to do the rest of the parts of the circuit). what the supply must do, if presented with a load which would draw more than 1a, given the supply voltage, is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal one amp. thus, if we were to short the thing with the ammeter, we should read one amp. if we measure the current through a 1 ohm resistor at 12v, we should read one amp (and the output voltage, by necessity, must be 1v. the only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output power transistor, and therefore reduce the output. so, does anybody have any ideas we could work from? thanks in advance. andy collins, kc6yey acollins@uclink.berkeley.edu ps: if anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project, i agree fully, but i still have to do it, its graded ;^) you can design for ramp shutoff, brick-wall current limit or even fold-back cutoff....sounds like you want "brick-wall" current limit. your lead is correct to pull down the bias to the series regulator base drive. in order to get the brick -wall, you need enough voltage gain on the current sensor. normally a darlington on the current sensing resistor will be adequate, but for infinite gain.. use an op amp to sense the current releative to a stable voltage reference and use a driver to turn off the base bias on the series-pass transistor. phase compensation may be necessary with this closed loop control system if yopu have more than 180 degrees phase shift in your feedabck circuit at unity gain ok?? dino@inqmind.bison.mb.ca the inquiring mind bbs, winnipeg, manitoba 204 488-1607 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54099">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54099" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 not that the question is anything important, but i am still curious: why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green? i have seen a few blue ones, but no red, yellow, company logo etc. is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing "geniuses" have not tought about it (yet)? the color of the board shows the composition of it, hence the use of it. original and older boards were bakelite composition, and were brown. phenolic (spelling) was a tan most "non filled" fiberglass boards used in computers are green. filled fiberglass is blue. teflon is white. as boards evolved more and more demands were made of them. first boards were used mainly in audio circuitry. couldn't be used in high voltage or rf because it would arc and burn. most boards today are fiberglass, the type being chosen by its use and cost. boards in satellite and microwave communication are teflon (and ceramic) as the fiberglass, and other boards are conductive (they actually work more as a capacitive dialectric, but the word conductive simplifies explaination) at the high frequencies. another printed circuit material used mainly in automotive and interconnections is a thin flexible (mostly mylar) material and is used to connect the front of the vehicle (etc) to the back instead of wiring harnesses. camcorders use this to intereconnect the boards inside where wires would be a nuisance. am working on a generator made by hewlet packard right now and the entire board is gold plated, boy it looks expensive!!! hope i got most of my facts right as i am working from memory of material read. my education was pre-transister! 73, tom tom wagner, audio visual technician. malaspina college nanaimo british columbia (604)753-3245, loc 2230 fax:755-8742 callsign:ve7gda weapon:.45 kentucky rifle snail mail to: site q4, c2. rr#4, nanaimo, british columbia, canada, v9r 5x9 i do not recyle..... i keep everything! (all standard disclaimers apply) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54106">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54106" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have 2 omti 3527 scsi adapters for sale. these make an st-506 rll drive look like a scsi disk drive. each adapter will support two rll drives. i have used this model omti adapter with my amiga a500 and a c-ltd scsi host adapter without problems. i'm selling these because i got them about the same time i decided to sell instead of expand my amiga so i have never even used them. i can't guarantee they will work with every scsi host adapter. they are essentially new in box. i paid $150/ea, make me an offer. (708) 202-1030 little@pecan.enet.dec.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54108">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54108" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold. the temperature |> combined with self-discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of |> the battery. i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn't |> go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite |> cooler. please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt. sheesh....... it's not the temperature, it's the karma. you see, dirt has good karma, since it's all organic and full of living things, but cement is all squared off and artificial looking, and has lost its karma in the process. being a karma sink, it sucks all of the good karma out of the battery which is no longer able to keep a charge. because wood is also good and organic, putting a board between the battery and the cement will fix the problems. the buddha-nature is in the acid, but it is also in the lead plate. the novice asked the master whether the spongy lead had more of the karma or whether the solid lead had it. the master handed the novice a 250v b battery, terminals downward, and thus the novice was enlightened. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54110">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54110" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hello again, i asked this a year ago, but i am still looking. i am getting sick of having to use a hc373 if you are just getting sick of the real estate used by the hct373, you could always use the approach i have seen one designer take - he stuck the chip in the middle of the eprom socket, under the eprom. naturally, you have to use an ic socket with the right dimensions, but layout is really easy. -steven murray 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54111">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54111" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 a little correction on my previous post about an hour ago. please replace the term 'eeprom' with the term 'eprom' wherever it appears. (don't not why i added that extra 'e' every time.) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54113">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54113" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for a very high speed d/a converter (at least 8bits and 150mhz) for a research application. a paper in the january issue of ieee solid-state circuits mentions a gaas, 1ghz, 8bit dac - anyone know where i can find such a thing? even a somewhat slower si dac would needless to say, i have looked in all the conventional places (vitesse, motorola, national, etc. etc.). any pointers would be appreciated. --- seema varma 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54114">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54114" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 backupable, if restored to the same machine >>(depends>> on the programmer... don't use a disk drive characteristic!) if the user >> did an upgrade to the machine, he/she should reinstall all programs any way. no document look-up, no disk wear-and-tear! > this is not a good idea.. i upgraded my motherboard last fall. i >would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards. > opinion is understandable. :-) i assume you have a tape drive? not all of us have about 200 floppies around for backup, you know. any info in the bios is too volatile to use as a checksum. are you going to require that a user re-install all their software if they add 4mb >of ram to their computer? i did that a couple of weeks ago. it's in the >bios, and if software had told me "this isn't the machine you installed me >on" i would never have used that software again. really bad ram is something you add all the time, so no. it's more like bios manufacturer and/or processor type (386/486/etc). data cannot be used, esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates on a diskette. on the other hand, to make this less intrusive it could be disguised as "please insert original disk #xx as i need file yyyyyy for update". :-) it would be perfectly reasonable... sort of. i did not say that the originals would allow only one install. the user's >> conscience should do that. this is silly. it's much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk, and then give >them that. your scheme isn't going to stop anyone. of course it is easier. are you saying then the originals should allow only one install? what is your point? you know how many bytes you need to change in x-wing to disable >> the quiz? two! yes, two! (and don't ask me which ones they are.) do you know any assembly language at all? all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz, and insert a jmp instruction >to just completely skip it. not that difficult, really! and there is very >little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing. using pklite or >some similar utility would help, but only if the resulting compressed .exe >were tagged as uncompressable. i know x86 and 680x0 assembly quite well, thank you. i know exactly which two bytes need to be changed, i have the code to do them too. i just said "don't ask me which ones." i didn't say i don't know what that means. such hacking can be easily discouraged by adding anti-patching code which does a self-check upon execution and refuse to load if crc does not match value stored (encrypted, of course) in the program. it could be claimed as a part of anti-virus code, and it would not be far from the truth. what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus >> a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup "registered to xxxxx -- address, city, state zip" and disables the this is by far the best idea you presented in your post. making it plainly obvious who registered is going to stop casual pirates. but, the determined ones are just going to answer "joe blow" to the question of "what's your name" so this won't stop them in the long run. did anyone read what i wrote? that is not what i wrote! (or meant!) what i said was the program should have certain restriction (such as the restrict-to-one-machine) until the program is registered with the manufacturer. the manufacturer will then supply the then-proven-legitimate-user with a patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the "registered to xxx" screen. pirates are always going to win this fight. they simply have more time to work on the software and figure out the protection scheme. of course they will, but that was not my point. the purpose of copy protection is to discourage casual pirates ("oh, can i have a copy of that?"/"sure, here.") and the less sophisticated pirates ("let's look for all those calls to int13h...") . any one determined enough to break copy protection can and will succeed. they can always backtrace the entire load-sequence of the program. the point of copy protection is to make such attempts take as long as possible while not intruding upon the uses (or to minimize such intrusion) of legitimate use. pirates who see copy protection as a challenge love breaking them, and no amount of copy protection will stop them, but the rest of us will be stopped. how many of these hardcore pirates are there compared to rest of us? not that many. --kasey chang 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54115">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54115" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could someone please tell me if the 486slc and 486slc2 processors ibm is putting in their thinkpad 700's and other pc's is a real 486 with a math coprocessor or if it is really some kludge that should not be called a 486 at all? eric w. braeden | "der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university | doch das nuetzte am ende nicht viel" ebraeden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu | peter schilling 120 grad 1983 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54116">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54116" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead (totally unuseable) when stored on a concrete floor? i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year, *to preserve them* and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work, but they act like the two terminals are shorted. i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that, 'cause it ruins them, but he couldn't tell me why. this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago. the concrete is not the problem. lead-acid batteries often fail from disuse (not being charged for a long time), but there's no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the the concrete floor accelerates the problem because it is a heat sink and a colder lead-acid battery self-discharges at a slightly faster rate. that's why the old wives' tale of sitting it on a piece of wood on the floor works to help keep from killing the battery as fast ---- it insulates the battery thermally. it you'll set the battery down on a piece of styrofoam, it will self-discharge even slower. the best thing would be to attach a small load such as a small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave it on constantly, but also trickle-charge it every couple days too to "shallow- cycle" the charge in the battery. such mild "exercising" of a lead-acid battery is the next best thing to completely removing the electrolyte for storage. if you do remove the electrolyte, may sure you keep separate storage containers for each cell's electrolyte and put it back into the same cells when you refill the battery. this isn't so critical for a brand-new battery in a fully charged state, but will maximize the restored output of an older battery which may not be fully charged when you remove the electrolyte for neal howard '91 xlh-1200 dod #686 computrac, inc (richardson, tx) doh #0000001200 |355o33| neal@cmptrc.lonestar.org std disclaimer: my opinions are mine, not computrac's. "let us learn to dream, gentlemen, and then perhaps we shall learn the truth." -- august kekule' (1890) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54118">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54118" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ok i posted this b4 but: ___ blue wave/qwk v2.12 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54119">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54119" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi folks, i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original. i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes. however, i've never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don't want to take the chance even it's small. anyone has experience in this kind of self-destructing video tapes? thanks in advance. ka lun pang (a.k.a. andy) - lost between frequency and time on the unit circle email: klp@doe.carleton.ca dod# 0687 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54122">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54122" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 article: 41686 of sci.electronics newsgroups: sci.electronics path: news.nd.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!asuvax!ennews!mcdphx!schuch message-id: <1993apr19.154356.17880@phx.mcd.mot.com> sender: news@phx.mcd.mot.com nntp-posting-host: bopper2.phx.mcd.mot.com organization: motorola computer group, tempe, az. distribution: usa lines: 9 does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i've been seeing all over late-night tv recently? i was wondering if they use forced air, heat, or both. if there's heat involved, anybody know what temperature they run at? my wife would like one and i'm not inclined to pay >$100.00 for a box, a fan and a heater. seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks. heck, the technology is only what? 1,000 years old? try mother earth news, feb/march 1993, pg 54, "build a food dryer" 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54126">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54126" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 would anyone have a few extra 3479p's lying around that i could buy off of them.. problem is that around here i can only perchase them in $30 quantities, and i don't need this, and can't take this financially right now.... if anyone can accomodate me with this please reply to both for the following mailing addresses... thanks!!! _______ | baden de bari | / \ | baden@sys6626.bison.mb.ca | (| o o |) | baden@inqmind.bison.mb.ca | | ^ | | >> true life can only | \ -=- / | >> be experianced by | \_____/ | >> those who do not fear death. | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54127">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54127" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm a 2600 hacker from the old days. let's see how much trouble i can get into by telling you what you want to know... ;-} eric weaver sony avtc 677 river oaks pkwy, ms 35 sj ca 95134 408 944-4904 & chief engineer, kfjc 89.7 foothill college, los altos hills ca 94022 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54129">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54129" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need to know about the market for cellular antenna technology today... who are the main companies in the market.. how much are they selling them for? who are the contact people? what are the specs? i will mail oyou our reserach so far if youcan help us!! erini@ifp.uiuc.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54130">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54130" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm working on an audio mixer project, but i'm having trouble finding parts. i want to use op-amps for the gain control stages. the ones i have found that are good for audio are lm739 and lm833, but i cannot find either of these in the electronic parts places i've looked. are there any good substitute op-amps and/or are there any parts suppliers in the la area that carry this kind of thing (10kohm dual audio taper slider pots would be nice, too). any info would be appreciated. thanks in advance. martin lin triumvir@cco.caltech.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54131">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54131" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 [discussion on piracy deleted] off deeper end-> why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy? almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk, so you are left with the originals as your backups. i think its a waste of time, space, and money, as well as it makes it to tempting to "lend" out the backups. my own practice with new software : make a copy of the original floppies to a second set of floppies. install to hard drive from second set of floppies. put originals in a box in room number one. put copies in box in room number two. 1) accidents do happen to original floppies. 2) accidents can happen to the installation floppy. 3) sometimes software goes out on floppies that are just marginally good. or gets too close to a magnet in shipping or storage. i've had experience with something like the last. i purchased a compiler from a reputable vendor. the debugger in the package just would not install to the hard drive. no way. repeated floppy-to-floppy copies finally got a clean read of the disk. i don't recall if i used "diskcopy", "copy/b", or "xcopy". i made a second copy of the marginal floppy and installed from that. no problenms ( except with my typing :-) ) since. i regard backup floppies as cheap insurance. just my side of the question... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54132">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54132" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 while driving through the middle of nowhere, i picked up knbr, am 1070, a clear-channel station based in los angeles. knx am, 1070 in la, will be unhappy to hear about this, i'm sure. :-) (isn't knbr in the bay area?) --- jamie hanrahan, kernel mode systems, san diego ca internet: jeh@cmkrnl.com uucp: uunet!cmkrnl!jeh cis: 74140,2055 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54135">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54135" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 so what's the story here... we're all stuck with the regular green, red, and off yellow-orange led's!? what gives!!?? anybody have a 'scoop' on fairly low priced >blue< led's??? in order to emit blue light, a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of 2.6 to 2.8 electron volts. according to my physical electronics prof, you can't get an led with that band gap. that's why you he's mistaken. they exist, the semiconductor is silicon carbide, and they are inefficient and expensive. the bandgap is around 2.7 ev. don't find blue leds or, for that matter, some other colour of leds. that is not to say that blue leds can't be found. i've seen 'blue' leds sold, but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering. they didn't emit very much light... the ones i have are clear plastic. pray tell, what would make a "typical" led emit blue light? david josephson <davidj@rahul.net> 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54136">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54136" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have a project in mind that requires an array of leds that can be addressed individually by a microprocessor (say, 16x16 or so). is there an lsi that is designed to drive an led array (including ram to hold the array state), or failing that, some way of multiplexing the display so i don't have to latch a bit for each led using a discrete latch? (i want to avoid having a huge board covered with 373s if possible!) thanks in advance... phil torre (ptorre@u.washington.edu) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54138">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54138" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm looking for some specs for a toshiba ta6267-bp. it appears to be a power amp housed in a 7-pin inline package and is used in my mitsubishi vcr, circa 1985, as a dc motor controller for the tape drive. checking in the oldest ic master i have (1990), i don't see it listed, and it appears to have been discontinued. if anyone has anything on this part, i'd be *greatly* indebted! thanks in advance, 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54139">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54139" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hams can legally run up to 1500 watts. it is very unlikely, however, that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car. ham rigs not possible either. you'd need about a 300 amp alternator for just the amplifier. i can just see it. you need to slow down on a downgrade, so you hit the push to talk button. now, that indeed is possible. a good friend of mine is running about 1 kw pep from his car. yes, he does have a second alternator. yes, he calls the rig an "electronic brake" since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down. it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio, but i seem to remember that pep is actually 4x the "real" power. which makes 1kw pep actually around 250w. or was it 2x? i disremember. "effective transmitted power" is also "odd", in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry. which is why a tv station with a 50kw klystron might advertise a megawatt (if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower ;-). this is like sears hp ;-) though, 1500 real watts still isn't impossible. about 125-150a with a 12v alternator, less if the alternator produces higher voltages. it's only three horsepower (taking into account inefficiencies). you'll feel it when you hit the key. but not too much. chris lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; phone: canada 613 832-0541 psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca it sorta depends on what you drive. i remember running a two channel motorola with a vibrator power supply and about 40 tubes in a 1958 volkwagen. the poor little 6 v generator had a heck of a time, and if you keyed the mic at night, you needed to be stationary, because your lights got awful dim. isn't progress wonderful? emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca (robert smits ladysmith bc) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54141">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54141" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i strongly disagree. i think most pirating is done by amateurs, who won't copy the program if "diskcopy" can't do it. i hate to disagree, but i will. :) (note: i don't pirate software, nor do i trade it. i simply have met and talked extensively with those who have. that's it. the fbi can tap someone else's phone :) most pirating is done by people who don't use the programs they pirate. a cracked program tends to get passed on, resplendant in the various graphics and animations that advertise whoever performed the modification(s). i admit that a large portion of the business world is involved in 'giving' copies of programs to one's fellow workers, maybe taking it home for use on one's own pc, but such trading tends to be interdepartmental or at most spread throughout the business as a whole- how many times have you had someone walking from business to business letting people copy disks? it's mostly a matter of convenience: a person sees a program they want to use and they feel justified in making a copy since "someone's already paid for it", etc., etc. (a note: this is starting to change a bit. not much though.) if you're talking a 20% max goal of pirated copies, i bet that anything that will beat diskcopy, and can't be easily copied from a hard drive, will what about commercially available copy programs? copyii? how about programs like teledisk, that can do things diskcopy can't? and before anyone disputes this because they feel that those who would copy wouldn't know about this: after working with people around computers, one comes to realize that the 'average' user doesn't know much. any computer enthusiast is at least 200x better at pre-guessing commands and how to use them (can *you* sit down and use something without reading the manual?) and it is these people who are doing the '20% pirating', not joe windows user who can't remember a few arguments to the dir command. i hate hard copy manuals, and would rather have all docs online - *not* because i want to copy the program, but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can't find. really? i find it evens out- the online stuff can be read through faster, but you're stuck reading it in linear flow: start to finish, unless you jump ahead with a search or such. a book, though, you can flip through faster than you can read text on a screen and they usually have a nifty index too! but i partially agree: i often wish i could grep something that was written off deeper end-> why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy? almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk, so you are left with the originals as your backups. i think its a waste of time, space, and money, as well as it makes it to tempting to "lend" out the backups. what if they need to re-install? the idea of a backup still holds- if the original disk goes bad, they're out of luck for about 1-2 weeks, which is the usual turn around time for a company to send a new set of disks- if they'll do it without a charge. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: edward w. jajko ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::: the nekomancer :: ejajko@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu ::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::"mein fuhrer! i can walk!!" -doctor strangelove:::::::::::::::: 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54142">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54142" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could make for some interesting choreography... light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage, or by the number of dancers on stage. neat. you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage! can you tell us more about what you're doing? sounds like a very cool program. tis' only a gleam in my eye at this point. i have yet to chose a tracking method. the initial requirement was to design a system to locate a dancer in one of eight zones across the stage. i did some experiments with pyroelectric detectors and found them difficult to align to get a definite zone transition. and dancers stand still alot, so their ir signature goes away. the good thing about pryoelectrics is that their signal is proportional to the size of the warm body (or body part), and the velocity of said body. this could be useful for detecting the intensity of a dance gesture. dancers also really hate to wear little boxes and batteries strapped on their bodies, but they really need to be emitting some kind of signal to be tracked. the current toy i have been working with is a program called mandala for the amiga, used with a live! video digitizer. this works with a video camera trained on the stage. you can set thresholds for a zone within the field of view, and an object brighter than the threshold will trigger an event. events can be midi objects or sequences, amiga sounds or graphic objects. it's been fun to play with, but the documentaion is arcane, and the digitizer is noisy. still, it's very appealing, the dancers don't have to wear any appliances, you can have ots of zone,s, it speaks midi, which can be used to control lights, and i don't have to build any electronics. it's all done with lighting and video brightness and contrast adjustments. i have yet to do anything particularly useful or artistic, but i have hopes... 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54143">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54143" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video (vs. a blank screen) by monitoring the r,g, and b outputs of a graphics card. it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at 65 mhz, which would mean detecting a 15 ns pulse. it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen (about 300 mv) and a dim screen (say, around 310 mv). oh yes, it also needs to be cheap. ............... in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only 650 mv. i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work. try a differential amplifier. put back-to-back diodes between the collectors restrict the voltage swing. have 10 ma flow, with 500 ohm collector rs, and keep the stray c below 10 pf. try 2n5179s. run collector to your logic. allen sullivan 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54145">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54145" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 sburton@dres.dnd.ca (stan burton) writes:.......... i would like to be able to detect the angular position (low accuracy) of an ir emitting source at a distance of about 100 meters (more is better) in daylight. the ir source could be emitting a signature; i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave with 50% duty cycle. i designed and built hardware in 1988 that would output a logic level (from a 567 tone detector) upon detecting a 500 microwatt led 28 feet away. used a motorola mrd360, biased linearly in a dc-feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight (and 60hz from lights). used no lenses. allen sullivan 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54147">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54147" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt. sheesh....... i hope david isn't going to be too upset with me for sticking my nose in here again, but here goes......:-) it isn't the average temperature that is the key factor here, but rather which is better at transferring the heat out of the (presumably warmer than ground temperature) battery. call it a question of thermal conductivity, or of insulating ability, or "thermal mass" - whatever you like. question - why does a concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand on it? bob myers kc0ew hewlett-packard co. |opinions expressed here are not systems technology div. |those of my employer or any other myers@fc.hp.com fort collins, colorado |sentient life-form on this planet. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54148">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54148" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 anyways, i've built the basic up & down converters with pretty good results (>80% efficiency) but i'm running into problems when i try to design & build anything that puts out serious amps... i know it can be done (i have some 5v@200a guts on my bench) but something puzzles me: i'm using a simple choke as the storage element (basicly a toroid with a single winding) but all commercial models use transformers with many windings. i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error/feedback but some of the others seem to loose me... what are they for? better than that, anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of? i'd love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume :-) most commercial switchers do not use magnetics for their energy storage; that's handled by the big caps on the primary side, those which in a linearly-regulated power supply would be considered the "filter" caps, coming right after the bridge. the transformer is just that - a transformer. it's there primarily to step the voltage up or down. (although the inductance seen by the switch transistor on the primary side is not negligible, as anyone who's zapped said transistor from either failing to get one with a high enough breakdown voltage or neglecting to include a "snubber" diode across it would tell you. actually, many transistors intended for switcher use today have the diode built in.) the basic switched-mode power supply operates something like this (in a somewhat simplified manner): the ac line is rectified to produce a high voltage, more-or-less unregulated dc rail. the energy storage (or "filter") caps appear across this rail, as does the switching transistor. the transistor chops the current into the primary side of the transformer, resulting in stepped-up or stepped-down pulses out the secondary, which are then rectified and filtered. at least one of the transformer's outputs is sampled and fed back to the control circuit for the switching transistor, which acts in a "pulse-width modulation" (pwm) fashion to control (by varying the pulse width) the amount of energy being dumped into the primary, and therefore the voltage coming out at the secondary. the remaining outputs may be allowed to simply run at whatever value they will, more-or-less tracking the regulated output, or they may have some additional linear regulation added. you may also note that the feedback between the regulated output and the pwm control (which is most typically an ic) is not done via a direct electrical connection; this is due to various safety standards which require primary and secondary circuits to be electrically isolated. often, the feedback path involves an optoisolator to meet this requirement. while the transformer isn't the primary energy-storage device in these designs, this does not mean that the energy stored in the transformer can be ignored; besides the inductive "kick" giving the switch transistor a bad time (as noted above), you also need to worry about getting all the energy that went *in* to the transformer back *out* again, one way or another. in some designs, this happens more or less automatically - but in others, you need to take special care to ensure that the transformer core doesn't saturate, which again would have disastrous results (best left to the imagination! :-)). i'm not by any stretch of the imagination a power-supply designer; hopefully, a real one will come along soon and clean up any gross errors in the above. bob myers kc0ew hewlett-packard co. |opinions expressed here are not systems technology div. |those of my employer or any other myers@fc.hp.com fort collins, colorado |sentient life-form on this planet. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54149">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54149" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 please replay yxy4145@usl.edu thanks a lot 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54150">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54150" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm doing some work on the mac iisi and need some information on the cpu. i have the motorola mc68030um/ad rev. 1, but i fear it is out of date as it does not have the characteristics for the cpu package type used in the iisi. what i need is the theta (jc) thermal characteristic (the junction to case thermal resistance) for the _plastic_ fe style package. if you have this info, i would appreciate your sending it by email as postings suffer a few days delay here. if you are keen on this stuff, i am also interested in a more accurate value for the typical power dissipation. i'm assuming 2.25 watts (using the 2.6 w maximum at 0 c decreased the way the pd drops in the 6801x as ta increases). if your manual has a chart of power dissipation, i'd like to know what it reads at 25 c and 40 c. thanks for reading! james macphail jmacphai@cue.bc.ca (on bounce try james@mirg2.phy.queensu.ca) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54156">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54156" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i've hit a snag. in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an op amp amplifier from 1 to -1, controlable via a digital input. the most obvious way i've come up with is to use analog switches to adjust the gain of the op amp. the only analog switch i have experience with it the 4066. unfortunately i want to switch an ac signal which goes from about -5v to 5v, and the 4066 is only for positive signals. i have recently used the 4066 to switch a bipolar signal. i simply ran the 4066 off a bipolar supply, +/- 8v in this case. as long as your analog input signal stays between the supply rails, the 4066 will work fine. of course, your control (logic) input must use -8v as the logic low and +8v as the logic high reference, so that either (1) all your driving logic must be 4000 cmos with the same bipolar supply or (2) you must provide some kind of voltage level shifting circuit between the 4066 and the control logic. in my case, i was able to use the bipolar supply all the carlos puig, kj6st cpuig@infoserv.com san jose, ca (408) 289-8174 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54161">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54161" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there is one wild difference between the two printers: a laserprinter is a page printer whilst an inkjet is a line printer. this means that a laserprinter can rotate graphic images whilst an inkjet cannot. few drivers actually use this facility. (there is also the matter of downloadable fonts and so on) e-mail: tchannon@black.demon.co.uk or tchannon@cix.compulink.co.uk i have a deskjet 500 and i thought i'd give a little info. the deskjet 500 will do landscape mode like the hp laserjets. i can't say if other inkjets do though. also the deskjet can do downloadable fonts only if you buy a softfont memory cart for it. oh! you said the laserjet can rotate a graphic image! hmmmmm! the deskjet can only rotate text. nevermind! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54162">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54162" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 where can i buy blinking leds besides radio shack? * does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate? (by voltage i guess) if so, what hertz (pulse) rate are they adjustable or set to? i'd like blinking leds that can be set for approx 5 hz, 10 hz, 15 hz, or 20 hz. something like that... i'm interested in what's out there for flash rates. i like the idea of leds with flasher circuits already in them. i hate soldering ics in general. guess i don't have a hell of a lot of patience. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54165">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54165" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having? i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc. these boards run on the serial interface. i need to run * of the boards somwehat simultaneously. i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc> the problem is, how do i hook up 8+ serial devices to one pc inexpensivley, so that all can send data simulataneously (or close to it)? any help would be greatly appreciated! abhin singla 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54167">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54167" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original. i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes. however, i've never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don't want to take the chance even it's small. anyone has experience in this kind of self-destructing video tapes? i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it, or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it, i would place a small magnet near the take-up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played. who would think to check? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54168">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54168" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 once upon a time, long long ago in this news group, someone posted a schematic for a 1-bit a/d converter. well i just found a use for the little monster. anyone out there still got this text file? it had a flip-flop, a resistor and a cap, and a comparator/op-amp i think. i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news-group. +-----+---\ +-----+ o o beware the light at the end of the | | | | -- >| ---+ + tunnel. it may be an oncoming dragon. +-+-+-+---/ +-----+ \_/ m d c u mcorbin@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54169">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54169" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 that's why you don't find blue leds or, for that matter, some other colour of leds. that is not to say that blue leds can't be found. i've seen 'blue' leds sold, but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering. they didn't emit very much light... sorry charlie... i have a dozen, very blue led's on my bench right now. they have a clear plastic case and when lit, are absolutely blue. the hue is sort of a "summer day cloudless sky blue" but make no mistake, they are blue. you can buy them from digikey, circuit specialist, jameco (i think), led-tronics, stanley optoelectronics, and others. the current price is around $2.50 each for small quantities. i will also be selling them through my mail-order company in the near future (4 weeks). write for details if interested. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54170">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54170" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hmmm... a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold. the clerk sticks it in the store pc and asks for the buyers id. later, if pirated versions showed up they could be tracked to the original purchaser. in addition copies which were sent to distributors/stores would have a vendor reg # or serial # in order to track in store piracy. possible additional program security schemes would be: 1. having monthly password changes which necessitate user call in and registration. (inconvenient) 2. taking dire legal action on anyone caught (expensive) 3. encryption, crc check, self modifying code (limited effectiveness) 4. have an independent watchdog program in the installation/setup config or memory manager, etc. which would check the main program's crc. (only as effective as above methods at best.) 5. have the above watchdog circulating as a virus which would trash cracked copies of the program and/or the offenders hard drive. (risky, and probably illegal, certainly immoral) my new ideas aren't terribly feasible to implement as presented, but i thought if i threw them out people could think of variations that might be effective. what is the problem with parallel port security keys? i haven't used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes, so i don't know what the drawbacks are. i know the companies that make them claim they're uncrackable, but i've seen cracks of autodesk 3d-studio floating around (i don't have one so don't ask) and i had heard that it had parralel port keys. vamilliron@othello.ucd.edu -my apologies if i rambled, but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54171">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54171" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 inkjet and bubblejet printers are the same tech. "bubblejet" was trademarked by cannon and inkjet was by hp i belive. i have seen both, and own a "bubblejet" (a apple stylewriter which has a cannon engine) with a 360 dpi rated output. the output is very good with quality paper, which is very importaint. cheap paper gives bad results. i use sealed paper and the only differenc is that the ink is less dark than toner (i compaire to the apple personal laserwriter ntx), but then again the difference is $300 to $1500 so.... | david a. smith | "i like to skate on the other side of the ice" | - dasmith@suntan.ec.usf.edu | i didn't do it, and i don't know anything | - smithd@eggo.csee.usf.edu | either. usf better not know i'm here :) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54173">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54173" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hello again, i asked this a year ago, but i am still looking. i am getting sick of having to use a hc373 i didn't catch your posting one year ago, but i presume you like to leave out an extra a-latch ? (i presume you allready know there is a '573 but that couldnt be the question, could it ? ;-) during my student-trainee project, i discouvered a nice device, it's a psd301 from waferscale integration. in one single (44 plcc i think it was) package it contained: rom, ram, i/o lines and a programmable addressdecoder... as far as i can recall, it can be hooked directly with a mcs-51 series up ... neat huh ? but it needs programming before assembly, so it wasn't suitable for my project. perhaps usefull for you (future) plans ? greetings! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54175">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54175" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 milliron) says: a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold. the clerk sticks it that's kind of extra work that one cannot expect the store people to do. imho it would be easier if companies sell their software as cheaply as possible and to sell the customers detail manuals (for the brain-deads) , quick reference books, how to do books and videos, paid support hot line (1-900 :). for the registered purchasers, these can be part of their package. i have seen many books to teach people how to use dos, wp and other software. i i suspect either users can't read the manuals or they don't have manuals. either way, there is $$$ to be made. btw books are quite a bit more expensive to reproduce than a $1 disk. what is the problem with parallel port security keys? i haven't used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes, so i don't know what the drawbacks are. i know the companies that make them claim they're uncrackable, with the popularity of multitasking and pseudo multitasking systems (eg. os0.5, windoze, mack system 7), it is pretty easy to run a debugger and figure out the protection schemes by disassembling/tracing/trapping the application during run time. schemes like compressed software/ special loaders would be easy pray even to beginner hackers. hardware keys (unless well designed and *totally* transparent) is a pain in the b*t. we having using a piece of software under windoze that uses a hardware key. the key interfers with the printer stuff with other programs and often has to be unplugged for those software to work properly. but i've seen cracks of autodesk 3d-studio floating around (i don't have one so don't ask) and i had heard that it had parralel port keys. all the hacker has to do is to remove/modify code that communicate with the port. vamilliron@othello.ucd.edu -my apologies if i rambled, but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly. k. c. lee elec. eng. grad. student os0.5, windoze, mack are not trademarked... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54177">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54177" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 for discussion of nikolai tesla (who else??) --russ <nelson@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> businesses persuade; governments force. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54178">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54178" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi, i have a few questions about laying out a pcb. i am using easytrax for dos which is a great program. but what my question is when laying out traces what thickness should they be? i am mainly designing low voltage low current boards for micro controller apps. what should pad sizes be for resistors? i will be turning to a commercial pcb maker to produce 1's of these boards and i was wondering what is the minimum distance traces should be from each other. well any info would be great. thanks. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54179">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54179" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies. this is in most cases around the 20-3.3k hz range. pink/white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that. there are a few eq's out on the market that have pink noise built in. most all from audio control have them i know the c-101 does. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54180">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54180" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i need a small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply to deliver ~6 joules at 250 volts... the ubiquitous camera flash circuit is what i want, but i cant get mine apart without breaking it... charlie brett's suggestion -- buy one of the disposable flash cameras, use the film, then take the thing apart -- is a good one. note, though, that you won't get a particularly precise voltage out of such a thing, and it may be a single-point design that won't adapt well to off-nominal operation. the things are easy to dismantle. the key piece of information is that when you advance the film on one of them, you are winding it *into* the film cassette -- it is unwound from the cassette in the factory, when the camera is made. so no darkroom is needed for dismantling. it's standard film, so just take the cassette in for processing. all the camera-store people do when you bring in one of the disposables is rip it apart, toss the film cassette into the to-be-processed bin, and throw the battery in one trashcan and the rest of the camera in another. if you take it apart yourself, you get an aa alkaline battery (still with a fair bit of life in it) and all kinds of little bits and pieces from the camera. i expect you could even re-load and re-use the camera if you were really svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54183">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54183" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i hate hard copy manuals, and would rather have all docs online - *not* because i want to copy the program, but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can't find. just mho, but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed (next to the desk in my dorm) and reference them while using the program full-screen. the windows help things come closest to good on-line documentation i've seen, but they generally aren't detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space (even compressed) which is at a premium on my system . . .. in fact, the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland's c++ compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed (in the lab, of course). i've got a shelf full of books to help me out when i'm stuck. :-) to each his own . . . :-) it is also much easier to scribble corrections on a hard-copy manual. jeff white jhwhit01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54191">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54191" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could someone point me toward a source (ftp/bbs/whatever) for development tools for the 8051 microprocessor. i specifically am looking for a macintosh cross-assembler/disassembler. also, is there a mailing-list dedicated to discussing the 8051? thanks. james speth email for pgp compatible public-key speth@cats.ucsc.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54195">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54195" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for a suitable uart for a project. what i require is a stand alone device (i.e. not cpu controlled) which will receive 1200 baud rs232. also a nice extra would be a received data buffer. please reply with any info you have. chad d. hubich university of regina dept. of computer science 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54196">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54196" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi folks, i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining sayi that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original. i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two differen processes. however, i've never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don't want to take the chance even it's small. greetings. there are 3 types of warnings on (us) tapes: 1) a hologram is glued across the seam of the 2 halves of the tape. the message usually reads, "if seal is broken, you must buy this tape" 2) the standard "macrovision" warning, "copies of this tape will be unviewable" 3) [your case] extended message for the average consumer (tm) which states that even attempting to copy the tape will destroy the original. i don't believe you can sue them for misinformation in cases like this :-) take care. p.s. of course, #3 is utter bs - but the average consumer (tm) believes it. heck, my mom once returned such a tape without watching it... she was afraid that something might just happen :-) / filip "i'll buy a vowel" gieszczykiewicz. | best e-mail "fmgst+@pitt.edu" \ | all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only $0.99 so respond now!!!! | | i live for my ee major, winsurfing, programming, sca, and assorted dreams. | \ 200mb drive - linux has 100mb and ms-dos has 100mb. ms-dos is worried ;-) / 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54199">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54199" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 this has been an interesting thread to follow... and obviously this group wasn't intended as a forum for the discussion of piracy... has anyone seen any estimates of the lost revenue due to pirates? i was wondering if piracy is more rampant in home or corporate computing environments. i would tend to think that business environment "piracy" is the major contributor to this form of lost revenue. so many companies will purchase a few copies of a software package and then employees will internally distribute them as if they owned a site-license! what do you guys think? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54201">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54201" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it, or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it, i would place a small magnet near the take-up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played. who would think to check? that is an exceptionally cool idea. would it work? how strong a field is needed? pat@fegmania.wustl.edu ------------------------------------------------------- c c "revely, nancy sinatra, christmas carols... a kind of stereo hell" ( " ) -- chris buery, abc news ---------------------------------------------------------------- (314)-851-0993 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54202">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54202" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 once upon a time, long long ago in this news group, someone posted a schematic for a 1-bit a/d converter. well i just found a use for the little monster. anyone out there still got this text file? it had a flip-flop, a resistor and a cap, and a comparator/op-amp i think. i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news-group. hmmm... how about a piece of copper wire? 0 to 5v input range, standard ttl output, instantaneous conversion time! [ (-: for the humor impaired ] mark a. haun | internet: haunma@wwc.edu 252 sittner hall | amateur radio kj6pc college place, wa 99324 | +1 509 527 2297 | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54204">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54204" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 well, yes and no. the _image_ can't be on the screen less than 1/30 of a second, but a _mixture_ of images that's about 90% of the field that was supposed to be there and 10% of the 'subliminal' addition could be overlaid for one field, producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for 1/300 second. this is a 1950s idea. supposedly, splicing in a frame of "buy popcorn" upped popcorn sales in a movie theatre. big flap at the time. congress involved. talk of making it illegal. general agreement by networks not to do it. more than talk: from the fcc rules: 73.4250 subliminal perception: (a) see public notice, fcc 74-78, dated january 24, 1974, 44 fcc 2d, 1016; 39 fr 3714, january 29, 1974. (b) see fcc information bulletin, "subliminal projection" (sic, at least in my rules service copy of the rules), dated november 1977. since i don't have either old copies of the federal register or the information bulletin around, i can't tell you what you can't do on tv ( or radio) but i seem to remember this being an unnecisarily hot subject in the late '70s. practically speaking, i dont have too much trouble seeing the one frame edits in mtv promos, badly scratched or torn single frames in films and such, but maby that's just because the contrast between the single frame and the surrounding material was significant. i never believed in the one-frame type of sp being real. on the other hand, the coca-cola or brand (insert desired name here) beer cans conveniently placed so the brand name is visible in the movie you just watched, that's another story, and if your tv station or network was paid by the beer company for the privilege of doing that, there has to be a "promotional consideration paid by ...) or similar message included with the program; but if the tv station bought the movie already edited that way from the film company and didn't get any of the payment for "brand visibility" that the film company got, then they don't have to run the message. a few years ago, some junior person at an advertising agency re-invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out on tape with single-frame messages. it aired on a few stations, but a tech at one station, previewing the tape, noticed a flicker and looked at the tape frame-by-frame to find the "defect". big flap. fcc notified. commercial pulled. press reports. embarassed ad agency. you could probably find the press reports via dialog or nexis if you wanted. now that everybody has vcrs, it's not likely that anybody could get away with this on tv. john nagle john h. schmidt, p.e. |internet: schmidt@auvax1.adelphi.edu technical director, wbau |phone--days (212)456-4218 adelphi university | evenings (516)877-6400 garden city, new york 11530 |fax-------------(212)456-2424 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54205">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54205" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 having vainly looked for devices capable of dealing to the nec 77p20 dsp chip which dont require taking out a mortgage, i decided to roll my own. not a difficult task for an 8751, given that all the timing relationships are set out in the databook. one thing bothers me, that is the accursed 50ms 21 volt vpp pulse. sure, a little buck step-up converter can achieve this (in what is otherwise an all 5 volt widget) but i know latterday eproms dont need nearly this pulse length. q : has anyone come up with a more efficient programming algorithm which is failsafe ? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54206">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54206" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : (why do all postings from bnr seem to have bogus addresses? : both : gstovall@crchh67.nosubdomain.nodomain : and : gstovall@bnr.com : bounce.... : this makes it rather difficult to reply....) they go through uunet. this is often the problem - as uunet often has problems with return paths. ... deleted ... : oh, and most importantly, no amount of transmitted rf, short of a : transmitter the size of small house, is likely to cause the equipment : failures you describe. so you are looking at two different problems. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54209">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54209" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 [request for wdc65c816 mac cross-development stuff] apple themselves sells a 65816 cross-developer for the macintosh called 'mpw iigs' (it's intended for use with the apple iigs computer, which uses the '816). oscar r. mitchell ian schmidt - two meg software: irsman@{iastate.edu | aol.com} "i will choose a path that's | author of audiozap, modzap, and more. clear: i will choose free will" | co-author of soundconvert and desktracker. - n. peart, 1980 | coder and musician for the gs<>irc. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54210">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54210" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion/encrustation that collects on the battery terminals (usually the cathode) when using alkaline batteries (or more accurately, when not using them for a long time)? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54220">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54220" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed "in series with the tip or ring lines" of the phone wire. which ones are those? suppose i am holding a regular phone wire, such that the little plastic tooth (on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone) is facing down, and away from me. which of the 4 wires that i see is the "tip" and which is the "ring"? please reply to mlevin@husc8.harvard.edu. mike levin mike, ring is the red wire. tip is the green wire of most standard phone lines. they two constitute the two wires most often used for voice telephone (the two live lines). they are the two innermost connectors of an rj-11 phone jack. another way of telling is that if you measure voltage from red to green (ring to tip. tip/green being at ground potential of the voltmeter), it should read -48 volts in the on-hook no-ring position). i am 98% sure it's -48 v and not +48 volts. doesn't hurt a phone too much if they're reversed, it's just bad if one happens to somehow get grounded to earth ground elsewhere). additionally, when off-hook, the voltage drops to about -4 to -9 volts dc. i think it is supposed to correspond to a 36 to 40 ma current loop. and lastly, when ringing, the two wires develop an ac potential of about 80 v p-p at 20 to 30 hz across them (where you get the electromechanical old fashioned bell ringer from). hope that clears things... -squish@endor.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54224">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54224" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany. it's dc powered, and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe. the question is if the general electronics work the same. i can buy a different wall plug and refit it (i'm sure i'd have to), but would that do the trick? two things to watch for: in germany (and i think the same holds for sweden) only some of the connections can handle tone dialing, so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing. in sweden, the '0' is the first digit and all other digits are pushed "down" by one position; this makes dialing (and in the process converting numbers) an interesting task. otherwise, it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system. otoh neither you nor i would ever try that, as it is of course wolfgang diestelkamp wd@cs.tu-berlin.de wolfgang@first.gmd.de 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54225">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54225" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hopefully this should sort it all out .... not bad for 9 quid (normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates, but what is a quid, how does it relate to the british pound (or whatever it's called) and what is that in american dollars??? :-) sorry ... should have used correct terminology 1 quid = 1 knicker = 1.54 approx u.s. dollars the terry pratchett book "good omens" contains an adequate explanation of the rather strange uk money system, past and present for "americans, tibetans, and other alien species" :-) _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ | _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/ | michael brown _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ | _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ | csulo@csv.warwick.ac.uk _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ | mjb@dcs.warwick.ac.uk lost interest ?? it's so bad i've lost apathy! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54231">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54231" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> >two things to watch for: |> >in germany (and i think the same holds for sweden) only some |> >of the connections can handle tone dialing, so make sure the |> >phone can be set to pulse dialing. |> >in sweden, the '0' is the first digit and all other digits |> >are pushed "down" by one position; this makes dialing (and |> >in the process converting numbers) an interesting task. i think all connections in norway can handle touchtone dialing. |> not to touchtone. |> btw; norway is even more interesting. they got both system! so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live. the oslo-region has one system, the rest of the country another system. |> so you need different phones depending on where in the country you |> live. (almost right for pulsdialing.) some phones have a little switch inside, so you are able to use them all over norway, or you can just renumber the numbers on your phone. anders bj{\o}rnestad division of computer science and telematics norwegian inst. of technology, trondheim, norway email : abjoern@idt.unit.no (internet) x.400 : c=no; prmd=uninett; o=unit; ou=idt; s=abjoern 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54232">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54232" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi there, does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site? as i understand it, it is in the public domain - please correct me if i'm wrong on this one. any other pd rf design tools out there that can be recommended? especially microstrip filter tools... 73's lehane kellett. g8kmh. siemens nixdorf information systems, bracknell. lehane@sni.co.uk phone 0344 850393 fax 0344 850401 compuserve 100065,3563 standard disclaimers apply. warranty void if opened. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54234">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54234" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 comments about "who needs backup copies"? and "you do" deleted.... i'll toss in my 2 cents worth - i've begun to think that distribution disks are made on some of the least reliable floppy disk stocks available. we've been especially plagued by borland's distribution disks. i'm lucky if i can install from them as many as 3 times before they crap out on me. so definitely, as a matter of course we always make copies to do our installations with. paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens . 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54236">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54236" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am interested in finding a supplier for an array of leds on material which is transparent when nothing is lit. i'm not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but i would guess they are not too clear. an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about 1/2" square. (yes very course) this is for distance viewing, but on a window. any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated. -mark battisti mbattist@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1940 summit street #b columbus, ohio 43201 (614) 299-0317 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54238">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54238" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 we have to design an rf link for a distance of 250 m. we're using standard rs232 waves (square pulses) as the modulating waves and the carrier wave is sinusoidal. the link has to be bidirectional. we would appreciate any advice on the type of modulating techniques or antennas that we should use. what frequency is your carrier? have you considered using two tones, one for 1 and another for 0? how high is your rs-232 data rate? can you use more than one carrier freq? have you considered hiring an rf data transmission consultant? just curious, galen watts, kf0yj 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54239">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54239" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : listen to the interference. if you hear voices clearly, it almost : certainly isn't ham radio, and might well be cb. if you can record a : bit of it, you could take the tape over to a local ham operator's house : and ask him for his opinion of what you're hearing. most communities you cannot do that legally. why can't he record it legally? it may not be admissable in court, but recording for personal use is legal. if he wants to play it for his ham friend, that's legal too, as long as he doesn't charge admission. unfortunately, most consumer equipment is succeptable - it is all poorly here, here! : (btw: hams are allowed amplifiers; cb isn't. "illegal ham amplifier" : doesn't compute.) it does, but not for a mobile radio. there are very few mobile rigs that could power a 1500 watt amplifier. it doesn't actually have to be 1500 watts at 100 feet. i've heard radio transmissions from concert security over guitar amps with no guitar plugged in, and security uses radios transmitting 2-5 watts into a rubber duck antenna, which acts more like a dummy load than an antenna. hey bill, where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with? galen watts, kf0yj 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54240">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54240" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have an ic i need help in identifying. it is an 8-pin ic with the following label: w03563 9144w4 any help would be greatly appreciated in identifying this chip. kevin jones kpjone01@ulkyvx.ct.louisville.edu lab supervisor kpjone01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu computing and telecommunications phone: 502-588-6303 university of louisville, ky fax: 502-588-0150 the only good racist is a dead racist. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54243">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54243" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a 2% silver : content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings. : can anyone tell me why it is not used? (silver is not such an expensive : metal). : andy for the most part, silver-solder is not used for general soldering tasks due to the mechanism of dendritic growth. silver-solder, when exposed to high humidity and placed in an electric field, will actually grow dendrites which are conductive and will adventually electrically short across closely spaced nodes which are creating the field. for this reason, silver is allowed only in hermetically sealed assemblies. fortunatly, tin-lead solder is quite stable and will not grow dendrites as fast as silver-solder. therefore, it is used extensively. jerry long long@spk.hp.com disclaimer.... opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54244">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54244" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there is a cartridge capping upgrade for older deskjet printers available from hewlett-packard. older original deskjet and possibly deskjet 500 units may have a black plastic slide with rubber capping components in the cartrige parking area on the right side (viewed from front) of the printer. newer printers have a gray or white plastic slide. the black plastic slide can allow your cartridge to dry out. there was and may still be information packaged with ink cartridges explaining the situation. hp placed a coupon for a free upgrade kit to modernize old deskjets to the new capping mechanism. i did this on my printer and did indeed find that the cartidges now last longer. i don't have the information handy. i suggest contacting your nearest hp service center for information on obtaining the kit. hp has upgrade kits that consist of electronics and mechanical components that vary depending on the starting level printer and the level to which you wish to upgrade. i upgraded my original desket to a dekjet 500. the kit was fairly expensive. you are likely better off selling your old printer and purchasing a new deskjet 500 now that prices have declined so much. upgrading an original deskjet to 500 requires a fair amount of skill, but no soldering. upgrading a deskjet plus to a 500 is involves swapping the processor card and changing a few minor parts. contact your hp service center for further information. the pcl language used by deskjets is considerably different from the pcl used by laser printers, especially the newer laser printers. the biggest problem is dumb laser drivers that send a raster end command after each scan line. this makes no material difference for lasers, but causes the deskjet to print the accumulated raster. as you might guess, the result is hideously slow printing. the new dos wordperfect print deskjet drivers are still guilty of this particular behavior. from the way wordperfect works, this would not be easy to change. windows wordperfect works efficiently unless you use the dos drivers instead of windows'. the pcl4 dialect used in the laserjet iiip allows compression that permits a full page 300 dpi image to be rendered with only one megabyte of memory. an uncompressed image could be as large as about 909 kbytes, but the printer needs about 300k of memory for its internal house-keeping. laserjet iv models support banded printing that allows incrmental download of the image with compression in limited memory situations. deskjet downloadable fonts are not compatible with laserjet fonts. a single page from a laserjet only requires about 20 seconds. this is faster than any but the most trivial printing from a deskjet printer. the presumption, of course, being that the laser printer has completed its warm-up cyle. until ink chemistry is changed, wicking resulting in image deterioration is unavoidable. i won't use the word impossible, but matching laser quality output from a deskjet printer is unlikely. chosing an appropriate paper type helps, but does not eliminate the laser printers are more wastful of energy and consumable components. hp does accept return of spent toner cartridges, mitigating the material waste problem to a degree. energy waste could use more work. warm-up times have decreased, allowing stand-by current consumption to be significantly reduced in the laserjet iv. kyocera produces a laser print engine that employs an amorphous silicon imaging drum with a replacable toner system. the image drum is good for approximately 100k copies. it is a very nice print engine. i wish hp used the kyocera engine. kyocera also has a neat modular paper source and stacker system. the recommended duty cycle for a deskjet is significantly lower than any of hp's laser printers. the pick-up pressure rollers are subject to wear and i case confirm eventually do wear out. the usual symptom is that the printer becomes reluctant to feed paper. the paper feed is integrated in a transport mechanism that is a single part from hp service. replacement cost for the transport is almost $200. the feed rollers are not separately replacable, though it would not be a difficult job for a competent technician. i have disassembled and reassembled the transport on my own printer. it depends upon the application which printer is best for you. if you only print 5 or 10 pages a day and are satisfied with the appearance of output, the deskjet is a very good choice. as noted, the deskjet 500 is my choice for personal use. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54246">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54246" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having? i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc. these boards run on the serial interface. i need to run * of the boards somwehat simultaneously. i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc> the problem is, how do i hook up 8+ serial devices to one pc inexpensivley, so that all can send data simulataneously (or close to it)? any help would be greatly appreciated! abhin singla if you can modify the design of the dtmf decoder, the ideal comunications would be over a multi-drop system, like rs-485. rs-485 boards are available for pc's, probably cheaper than a bunch of rs-232 channels, and rs-485 is cheaper to build onto your satellite modules, using only a single supply 8-pin dip driver chip. software at the pc end would be similarly complex for either rs-232 or rs-485, in my opinion. the higher data rates possible with rs-485 would permit quasi-simultaneous data transmission. hope this helps. rod nussbaumer, programmer/technologist bitnet: bomr@triumfer triumf --- university of british columbia, internet: bomr@erich.triumf.ca vancouver, bc, canada. phone: (604)222-1047 ext 510 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54247">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54247" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i don't know much about phones in germany, but this is what i know: i bought a phone in the u.s. for my mother who lives in bratislava, slovakia and it works just fine. the problem is they don't have wall jacks like we do here. there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall. so you need to connect the wires (i'm not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe - they may). hope this helps. dagmar kniha@carson.u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54248">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54248" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 what are people's opinions about laser detectors? escort makes a laser detector, the passport 1000, and claims it works fine. however, i've talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you are lucky - i.e. if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in front of you, and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your detector. otherwise it won't work. regular radar, of course, travels in all directions; hence it is more detectable. any comments? escort has a deal (till the end of april, i think), where if you buy their wideband (passport 3200 - x, k, ka) and laser detectors, you'll save $60 off of buying them separately. in this case, the addition of the laser detector over the passport 3200 is only $40 (i.e. passport 1000 normally costs $100). eddie gornish university of illinois - center for supercomputing research & development gornish@csrd.uiuc.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54250">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54250" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 hi there, does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site? as i understand it, it is in the public domain - please correct me if i'm wrong on this one. puff is sold by caltech, although very inexpensively for the quality. source was also available for the earlier releases for a nominal charge, but i'm not sure if this practise is continued. regards, stu beal, ve3mwm, u009@csx.cciw.ca, national water research institute, burlington, ontario, canada. "we'd made it through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten its first robin." - kyle j. spiller 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54251">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54251" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am looking for a high speed d-to-a converter ( at least 8 bits and 150mhz) for testing a chip - any ideas on where i can find such a monster? a paper in the january issue of ieee journal of solid-state circuits (authors from philips eindhoven) mentions a 1ghz, 8bits, gaas dac they use in their testing, so i know that such circuits are around somewhere. triquint (beaverton, oregon), has been selling an 8 bit, 1 ghz d to a for several years. i have used it and it works well, faster settling time and smaller glitch area than any video d dacs i have seen. also, they have been developing a more precise version that may be for sale now - it's somewhere in the 10 to 12 bit area at 1 ghz. arnold frisch tektronix laboratories 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54252">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54252" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 not that the question is anything important, but i am still curious: why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green? i have seen a few blue ones, but no red, yellow, company logo etc. is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing "geniuses" have not tought about it (yet)? the green layer is a solder-mask, and is used to make a finished board look neat, and to avoid solder bridges, especially when using wave soldering (or any other mechanized approach). i've seen red mask, but most that i've seen are green. a bakelite board will look brown in colour, and, if the solder mask is put on, looks like a brown board with green 'paint' on either side (or just one side) of the board. a fibreglass board will look green from the side, because the green solder-mask makes the board appear that colour. if you got a fibreglass board with no mask, it would be a whitish-grey colour. teflon boards do exist, as well... but i'm not sure about that one. i'd guess the stuff they invented for solder mask was green, so they're not about to change. also, any change in any chemical probably requires a better than normal cleaning of the machines that make boards. a lot of companies do not make their own boards... they ship them to a real 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54253">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54253" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : nothing, but if you read my whole suggestion, i'm saying that you register : via mail by mailing in your registration card, then the company send you : the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card. the problem with this scheme, is that when i buy a game, i want to play it *that* day...mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more. i didn't say the program is disabled, did i? (i hate!!!! it when people take my words out of context...) i mean that once you have installed it, you cannot deinstall it without registering it, or transfer it to another machine, or some sort of limitation (the author will decide), which will be removed when the program is registered. --kasey chang 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54254">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54254" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i have an ic i need help in identifying. it is an 8-pin ic with the following label: w03563 9144w4 the 9144w4 is the date code but none of my books list a w03563. what is it out of and can you tell us what kind of circuit it is in? in the odd case that 9144w4 is not the date code, nte says a 9144-60 is an am reciever subsystem and a 9144-61 is an fm subsystem, but these are both in 16 pin packages. more info, please! galewn watts, kf0yj 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54255">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54255" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i would like to hook up some cameras that were recently donated to our local community cable tv station which have sync inputs in the form of horizontal and vertical drive. our station sync is a black burst which works fine with other boxes with "genlock" style inputs. can anyone point me at a design, article, or whatever showing how to produce the horizontal & vertical drive signals? check the station's master sync generator. you'll probably find that it already has horizontal and vertical drive outputs that just aren't being used. a couple of cables and you're in business. another possibility is to find a genlockable sync generator with hd and vd outputs - genlock it to station sync, and then feed hd and vd to the if neither of these is possible, then you'll have to build a sync separator. look at the circuit diagrams of your existing sync generators - they probably all include circuitry that does what you want. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54257">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54257" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 # when soaking in water). lasers are slightly sharper, but the only # instance where i needed precise layouts was printed circuit board # transparencies for photoetching. i found a textronix color phaser # postscript (thermal wax transfer) to work the best to make pcb # negatives directly onto a transparency. did the deskjet work at all when printing on transparencies ? if it did, what sort of resolution could it manage ? adrian godwin : agodwin@acorn.co.uk : adrian@fangorn.demon.co.uk : g7hwn@gb7khw obdisclaimer : i believe this rubbish .. don't imagine that anyone else does. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54259">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54259" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i know this is a long shot, but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct-tape adhesive from carpet? someone taped wires to the carpet, and now it is time to move out. is the solvent the same as what's used to clean up the goop in coax? (whatever that is ... but it just barely ties this query into sci.electronics) thanks for your help best regards, john r ruckstuhl, jr ruck@alpha.ee.ufl.edu dept of electrical engineering ruck@cis.ufl.edu, uflorida!ruck university of florida ruck%sphere@cis.ufl.edu, sphere!ruck 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54261">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54261" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion/encrustation that collects on the battery terminals (usually the cathode) when using alkaline batteries (or more accurately, when not using them for a long time)? generally, the corrosion is a signal that it's time to send them of to the recyclers, but if you're that desperate or cheap try baking soda and a wire brush. use gloves and goggles, please! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54264">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54264" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 alltronics in san jose (408) 943-9773 sells the votrax sc-01 speech synthesis chip for about $5.00. also i noticed that radio shack sells the isd chip which will store small amounts of digitized speech. good luck 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54265">
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 : nothing, but if you read my whole suggestion, i'm saying that you register : via mail by mailing in your registration card, then the company send you : the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card. the problem with this scheme, is that when i buy a game, i want to play it *that* day...mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more. i didn't say the program is disabled, did i? (i hate!!!! it when people take my words out of context...) i mean that once you have installed it, you cannot deinstall it without registering it, or transfer it to another machine, or some sort of limitation (the author will decide), which will be removed when the program is registered. what??!!!! you can't remove it, unless you register? you gotta be joking, right? what happens if i get a demo-version of that program, install it, and then decide that i don't like it. do i have to register to be able to get rid of it? (hell, no, that is the last thing i would think of!) if that is what you mean, then you would better make pretty sure, that a statement to that effect is printed loud and clear on the package! a better way to implement the above mentioned scheme is (imho) to allow anyone to install the program, but if they register, they get some additional features enabled. it could mean only one new .exe file needed to be copied, to have got the full-version of the program. of course anyone is _free_ to _delete_ or _remove_ that program at whatever time they like. still, we face the trouble of 'moving' the new .exe file around. that could be solved by having the user registering him self, and get back a specially marked for him (or her) a new .exe file. as for some sort of limitations, here are some suggestions: limit the size of data that the program can work with, disable saving the data, print it out with some defects in the output (but be sure to mark them as such) let some pop-up screen appear for ca. 10 secs. when the program is started and/or exited etc.... but don't have it that you _must_ register to be able to remove it. einari@rhi.hi.is 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54266">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54266" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate. my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal. i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product. any help would be greatly appreciated. wayne dawe (pick a path, any path but don't send me wayne@r-node.hub.org anything bigger than 15k) wayne@r-node.gts.org wayne@r-node.pci.on.ca wayne@r-node.uucp wayne: look for these advertised in sailboat supplies catalogs and sail-related magazines (eg. sail ...). | david prutchi hc1dt | | washington university <prutchi@mesun4.wustl.edu> | | campus box 1185 <dp@cec1.wustl.edu> | | one brookings drive | | st. louis, mo 63130-4899 | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54267">
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 in article <735604750.28979.0@unix5.andrew.cmu.edu>, mark yeck hey, can someone clue me in on these and other weird types of amplifiers? just a brief intro to the concepts behind these would be cool. i have the clues on type a, b, and ab already and stuff, but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and i dont know what they do. i think type d is like a pwm scheme or something. thanx in advanced. the whole point to these weird amplifier types is improved efficiency. class d amps *are* pwm (pulse width modulation) amps which work very much like switching power supplies. i think i've seen these things called "class s" before as well. they're capable of very high efficiencies, and would be suitable for very high power. i've yet to see anything like this used in an audiophile amp, though. i've been trying to design a three-kilowatter for the last year (to be used as an inverter for an ups), but have been having serious problems with layout parasitics (10 irf 450's in parallel... any help with a do-able isolated drive ckt would be appreciated :) ) i'm not absolutely positive about this, but i beleive a 'class g' amp is one that operates off a variable- or switched power supply rail voltage. the carver amps do something like this. they use some sort of phase-control circuit (i do not fully understand its operation) to reduce the transformer size, and i beleive that is patented. i had an m400 apart (trying to fix) and found that it had three rail voltages that it switched between. i ran a simulation on pspice and found that the topology would greatly reduce power dissipation (heat) under large-signal conditions, or when driving reactive loads (which draw high current at the zero-voltage crossings). think speaker....... /| dr. diode "great sound starts with || | warren@eggo.csee.usf.edu the source" ||\ | warren@renoir.cftnet.com 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54268">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54268" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 could someone tell me what's in a cornell-dubilier emi filter fil 3363-001? it is rated at 13a 115/250vac 50/60hz. is it just mov's and ferrite? dave / n2mxx stevens institute of technology hoboken, new jersey 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54272">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54272" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 ok i sold all but these, i had some offers and i accepted an offer of 25.00 for the pair from bdale@gag.com ( bdale garbee ). i don't know what happened to him but he won't reply now that i accepted it so i'll offer these again. please take these and use them. take advantage of me... i really don't know what they are worth. qty 2 - canoga perkins fiber optic modems, model 2250, rs-422 interface, appear new. i have powered up but that's all, i have not used them and i cannot tell you whether they work or not. make offer......... thanks and please buy this stuff or it goes out the door mdgoodma@cbda8.apgea.army.mil 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54276">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54276" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the last issue of electronics world describes ranger 2.0 a pcb cad program. according to the article there is a crippled version available as shareware, does anybody know of any ftp sites/bbses where this program may be found? thanks in advance. malmedal@unix01.dhmolde.no 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54282">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54282" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 what kind of csa/ul/fcc approval do $60+ mail-order pc computer cases and power supplies have? can i assume that the certification process for small-scale custom hardware (ie digital/analog circuitry) is reduced, or even eliminated, if i use such a case and (certified) power supply? also, assuming that i use a "certified" power supply, have i satisfied the requirements of csa/ul approval, and possibly fcc approval as well? do mail-order pc cases satisfy fcc certification? is fcc certification even necessary for scientific (non-commercial/non-residential) use? 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54283">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54283" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 at least locally, many shops carry a product called goo gone. it works well on scummy-gummy-sticky-goop-that-won't-go-away... as always, color test in an inconspicuous corner before use. joseph chiu | josephc@cco.caltech.edu "os/2: you gotta get this thing!" msc 380 - caltech | pasadena, ca 91126 | happiness is suspending x-wings to make an appointment +1 818 449 5457 | calendar entry and to send a fax, and resuming the game. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54285">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54285" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> what are people's opinions about laser detectors? escort makes a |> laser detector, the passport 1000, and claims it works fine. however, |> i've talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you |> are lucky - i.e. if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in |> front of you, and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your |> detector. otherwise it won't work. regular radar, of course, travels |> in all directions; hence it is more detectable. any comments? |> escort has a deal (till the end of april, i think), where if you buy |> their wideband (passport 3200 - x, k, ka) and laser detectors, you'll |> save $60 off of buying them separately. in this case, the addition of |> the laser detector over the passport 3200 is only $40 (i.e. passport |> 1000 normally costs $100). uniden makes an all in one unit (x, k, ka, laser) for about $130. colorado radar sells passive radar jammers, the passive supposedly being legal, for about $100. wont help you with laser however. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54287">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54287" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i know this is a long shot, but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct-tape adhesive from carpet? may i tease out a sub-thread from this discussion? can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses' appliances and outdoor lampposts? especially the lamppost, right on the glass. isn't there something you can rub into stuck-on labels that will release them from their death-grip on glass or other hard surfaces? "petroleum naphtha," available at most hardware stores, will remove most frank reid@ucs.indiana.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54290">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54290" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i know this is a long shot, but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct-tape adhesive from carpet? someone taped wires to the carpet, and now it is time to move out. i don't know for sure that this will work, but you might try mek (methyl ethyl keytone?). it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper, and is available at paint stores. use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation--this stuff really stinks! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54292">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54292" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 platen, etc flew across the room, and several people in the room almost had heart attacks. beware the explosive properties of wd40 vapor. we use it as starting fluid for jet ski's. the fact that its a lubricant works very well since jet ski's are 2 cycle. it also helps when a ski floods with water because we clean the spark plus with the stuff. ob sci.electronics: i have an office/studio in my garage with a phone in it. our wireless phone has a page feature where you can make the phone or hand set ring to get the attention of the other person. is there a simple circuit that i can use over the second pair of wires (or the first pair) to emulate this effect with the phone in the garage? (ie push a button to make the phone ring in the house or push a button to make it ring in the garage.) matthew xavier mora matt_mora@qm.sri.com sri international mxmora@unix.sri.com 333 ravenswood ave menlo park, ca. 94025 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54293">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54293" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just bought a new portable cd player for the office, and i notice that it proudly proclaims "8 times oversampling" on the box. the data is only ever read once (barring mistracks and such, of course), and eventually gets turned into 44.1 khz, 16 bit, two channel data. oversampling takes two discrete data points, and interpolates n-1 points between them for n times oversampling. when i asked, people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation, but significantly more you are quite correct in your understanding. in case you care, the filtering method uses an fir (finite impulse response) filter. i'd guess that cd makers use the same kind of method. anybody out there know the real answer? typical (in the old 2x-oversampling units) was a thirteen-tap fir, implemented as a dedicated hardware addition circuit. at this kind of speed (slow, by digital standards) such an adder is much less expensive than analog components of comparable precision. i gleaned this information from a hardware manual for an old cd player design; where one would find similar info for a particular cd (the digital filter is an interesting component, from my point of view), i have no idea. the digital filter is a kind of interpolation scheme (read a book on numerical analysis, to see just how broad the term 'interpolation' is...), john whitmore 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54294">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54294" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system. i vaguely remember a few years ago, when "deutsche bundespost" split into postdienst, postbank, and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation. i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom, but does that hold true for regular phones? in my areacode in germany (2234 - frechen, near koeln) you can use touch-tone dialing. i assume, however, that most areas are still exclusively set to pulse dialing. last time i checked (jan '93) the cologne areacode 221 was still solely pulse dialing. btw, touch tone does become more common in germany, bringin with it the flourishing of 1-900 services (in germany 0190). i just hope we'll all have isdn some time at an affordable price - idle wishes... does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one? i know at least the british system is not -- it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work. but my modem (american) has a special setting for british standards... michael lemke astronomy, ut austin, texas (michael@io.as.utexas.edu or utspan::utadnx::io::michael [span]) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54298">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54298" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 can anybody send me pinouts of real time clock ic of oki semiconductors, 58321. i wish to know if any rtc ic of oki has an inbuilt crystal rather than an external 32.768khz crystal. thanks in advance. nilesh parikh nilesh@shakti.ncst.ernet.in 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54301">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54301" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i know this is a long shot, but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct-tape adhesive from carpet? someone taped wires to the carpet, and now it is time to move out. i don't know for sure that this will work, but you might try mek (methyl ethyl keytone?). it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper, and is available at paint stores. use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation--this stuff really stinks! for those who don't know, methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover. your wife's probably got some hangin' around.... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54302">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54302" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm trying to bring in 8+ bits to a pc, and would like to use interrupt-driven routines. without buying an io board or making a new port, _where_ can i bring in these bits? lpt seems to have only a few inputs, but i've heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines. anybody know fer sure? if any bi-d lpts, which boards have them (i'll be running a new 386dx-33)? alan erickson erickson@baltic.nmt.edu to all sunrayce '93 competitors: i hope you're getting about as much sleep as i am..... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54306">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54306" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : : bit of it, you could take the tape over to a local ham operator's house : : and ask him for his opinion of what you're hearing. most communities : you cannot do that legally. however, you can ask a ham over to listen. : if the interference occurs at a specific time each day, then it would : be possible to do such scheduling. if nothing else, you could invite : the ham over to transmit from your driveway, to see if he interferes. : if he does, then you probably need to have your equipment worked on to : make it immune to rf interference. as a coupld of people have pointed out - this is wrong. it is not illegal to record or disclose what you heard on the ham bands. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54307">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54307" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : why can't he record it legally? it may not be admissable in court, but : recording for personal use is legal. if he wants to play it for his ham : friend, that's legal too, as long as he doesn't charge admission. yeah - i goofed - a slip of the mind. i must be getting senile. ... deleted ... : hey bill, where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted : and dealt with? busy posting on about 20 other groups. i get to this one about once every three months or so. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54311">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54311" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 has anyone got an active filter design program that runs on an ibm pc ?? something that will easily let me specify bandpass filter parameters, and it will give me the appropriate component values ?? it has to be public domain, if anyone has one, could you mail it to me. thanks in advance, u9035710@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au p.s. it can run under windows if necessary. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54314">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54314" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was wondering, since i've got a few fax machine scanners intact, if they could be integrated to the pc environment as a mono-scanner? if so, where to start?! inspiration | ___ | comes to | \ o baden@sys6626.bison.mb.ca | those who | ( ^ ) baden@inqmind.bison.mb.ca | seek the | /-\ =] baden de bari [= | unknown. | | 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54317">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54317" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 what i usually use...and this stuff is only good on glass....is either acetone, or a little benzene. the latter of the two is a bit dangerous (possibly a carcinogen(sp?)) but it usualy gets the job done. i imagine you can you the two solvents on most metals as well as glass, but keep the stuff away from plastic. benzene is most definitely a carcinogen. if you can get your hands on it * don't use it! * _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ | _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/ | michael brown _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ | _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ | csulo@csv.warwick.ac.uk _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ | mjb@dcs.warwick.ac.uk lost interest ?? it's so bad i've lost apathy! 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54318">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54318" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i know this is a long shot, but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct-tape adhesive from carpet? someone taped wires to the carpet, and now it is time to move out. i don't know for sure that this will work, but you might try mek (methyl ethyl keytone?). it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper, and is available at paint stores. use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation--this stuff really stinks! for those who don't know, methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover. your wife's probably got some hangin' around.... oh dear, time for me to try to remember my chemistry. let's see if i can find the formulae somewhere in the dim recesses of my mind. <sounds of gears> <fumes of overheated oil> <unmistakable stench of the nasal chromatograph> ha! i knew there was a double bond! now how shall i show that in ascii? mek: acetone: c - c - c - c c - c - c o o the hydrogens are not shown, and # represents double bond. mek has a methyl (ch3) on one side, and an ethyl (c2h5) on the other. acetone has two methyls. so acetone is not methyl ethyl ketone, but instead is dimethyl ketone. both solvents have similar properties. i think that mek may be a little less flammable but a lot worse to breathe. it's a lot harder to buy mek than it once was. use acetone. nail polish remover consists almost entirely of acetone. if you buy some for your workshop, get the very cheapest, because the more expensive kind has oils and perfumes that you don't need. nothing is so foolish that it has not been posted to some net newsgroup. peter neilson --- neilson@osf.org <<< quote changed daily. if you've seen this one before, burn your calendar. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54320">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54320" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall. so you need to connect the wires (i'm not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe - they may). son of the return of the "how much does americans know about the rest of the word?"-flamewar anyone? -bertil- "it can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the net. the proof is left as an exercise for your kill-file." 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54326">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54326" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 : >there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall. so you : >need to connect the wires (i'm not sure if they have wall jacks in western : >europe - they may). : son of the return of the "how much does americans know about the rest of : the word?"-flamewar anyone? well, bertil, you might laugh, but in many places here in austria, there are no wall jacks yet, either - just wires sticking out of the wall (and put into a closed, often sealed, box) :-) as far as i remember from germany, it is a nicely mixed situation - somebody had wires sticking, somebody had jacks... on the other hand, everywhere in bohemia i have seen wall jacks, and never seen just wires sticking out of the wall... and i thought slovakia was the same case. well... "how much do scandinavians know about the rest of europe?? :-))" ___ / ___ / ____/ tomas kovar / / / / / alcatel austria forschungszentrum g.m.b.h. ___ / ___ / __/ a-1210 wien, ruthnergasse 1-7 / / / / / tel: +431-391621-283 fax: +431-391452 __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ e-mail: tom.kovar@rcvie.co.at 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54328">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54328" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 h h a rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss h h a a r r r r i s hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr i ssss h h a a r r r r i s h h a a r r r r iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax. answerfax is on-line 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes by using your touch-tone telephone and fax machine. the number to call is (407) 724-3818. (it is not set up to do international calls at this time.) the general decision tree for the answerfax is as follows, the numbers are the available selections: welcome to harris semiconductors answerfax 1 2 select 1 if you select 2 for an are familiar with explanation of answerfax. answerfax 1 2 select 1 to order select 2 for a a document (the list of catalogs: document list is 1 new products in the catalogs, 2 linear products get them first) 3 data acquisition products | 4 digital signal processing products | 5 discrete power and intelligent | power products | 9 application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog do you want to order do you want to order anything else? if yes, anything else? if yes, you will be taken back you will be taken back to the selection decision. to the selection decision. what is phone number for your fax? what is your name? (request the instructions) bill werner bill werner wwerner@hsscam.mis.semi.harris.com harris semiconductor wwerner@thor.mlb.semi.harris.com melbourne florida "....life is but a candle, and a (407)729-5515 dream will give it flame..." - rush, caress of steel 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54329">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54329" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 son of the return of the "how much does americans know about the rest of the word?"-flamewar anyone? let's save some bandwidth, skip the intermediate articles and go straight to the nazis and hitler :-) (we do have wall sockets, thank you, and they're better than yours) segmented memory helps structure software 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54330">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54330" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i wrote a commercial program called game-maker (can you guess what it does). what we do is have a document protect (answer question on page x, line y), which is a real pain. we also allow the user to register by sending in a card, and computing a # based on their name. the system works in that we've gotten lots of registration cards. i hear that the program has been cracked though. someone two people actually called up my support--one with a question, the other wanting to buy our graphics libraries (right!). anyway if anyone wants to help me catch a cracker and has the cracked version, mail me. i won't accuse you (unless you're the cracker of course). i know of at least one ftp-site from which you can download the cracks of about any commercial game in existence. the names of the companies (yes, companies!) are also blatantly advertised with the crack codes. according to them, it is not illegal (at least in the usa, according to a statute or something) to remove the copy protection from any program. the only condition is that you may only use this code on legally owned software for your own if there is any interest i will download the advertisement of one such company. i will not give the name of this ftp-site to anyone, even if only to protect the companies which wrote the original games. disclaimer: i do not condone the use or cracking of any programs. i believe it hurts the industry and individuals in the long run. on the subject of copy protection: most pirates don't give a damn about using software on which the name of the registered owner came up on starting the program. they just don't have a conscience. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54331">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54331" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i am trying to design a small 90mw 472mhz fm transmitter for remote alarm pretty high frequency for one chip... is there an fm transmitter ic available that can be used for this purpose? any help, circuits, info etc will be greatfully accepted. please reply to bsc_graham@seqeb.gov.au yes and no. i would use the fm transmitter chip from motorola (linear and interface databook), a stable cristal oscillator and a mixer (e.g. sbl-1 from mini circuits lab). everything is done in the fm chip and then mixed up with the oscillator frequency. just have a look at the arrl handbook. there are lots of ideas in there about oscillators and mixing. i don't think, there are single chip designs for such high frequencies yet. thanks in advance. graham castledine. cheers robert hb9nby robert ganter /------------\ universitaet basel | i am a fan | institut fuer informatik | of my plan | basel/switzerland \------------/ ganter@ifi.unibas.ch amateurradio: hb9nby packet: hb9nby@hb9eas.che.eu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54332">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54332" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 if you want to try a non-toxic solvent, there's one made of citrus that works very well and doesn't take your skin off in the process. one brand name i've used is citra-solve, but there are others too. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54333">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54333" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just got a copy of spice 5.2. i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one. i would appreciate any help. thank you neil gandler 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54339">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54339" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 |> from: jmichael@vnet.ibm.com |> date: tue, 27 apr 93 09:00:18 edt |> subject: re: solvent for duct-tape adhesive |> you are removing the goo, use pure grain alcohol :-). if the alcohol does |> not work try carbon tetrachloride. if neither of these work you may need to do not heat the ccl4 -- it makes phosgene gas of ww-i poison gas fame (remember when they used carbon tet in fire extinguishers?) (yes, i know i was yelling) ...wex 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54340">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54340" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the 200cd is one of three oscillators that hp made many years ago. (the others were the low frequency oscillator and the wide range oscillator.) these are the ones with the 7" diameter chrome dial, a wein bridge circuit that used pilot lights as the feedback loop, and firebottles that produced many volts of output. i've just acquired a pair of these venerable old beasts. the non-working one, sn 605, (owned by crosley radio at one point!) needs help. i know i can likely buy a microfiche copy of the book from hp, but that costs.... and considering i paid a dollar for the pair in the rain at the dayton hamvention;-} does anyone have such a book they could copy parts of for me? thank you.... 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54341">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54341" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 rubbish. the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder the may 1993 cover of qst has a picture of three different boards without any solder mask (you can tell from the copper colored traces). the box labeled 2304 transverter has the brown teflon/glass board, while the one in the center has the grayish board exposed. on the left is some fiberglass board that looks green to me. i see no reason for putting solder mask on circuit board used for box covers :-). i wonder if any manufacturer actually puts a solder mask on their low noise microwave preamps? often, microwave circuits have odd bits of wire/foil/metal attached to wherever/whatever is necessary to make the unit work properly (this is a commercial product?). a solder mask would certainly make doing this tougher, never mind the finding something that minimally degrades the circuits. (q dope for coils *does* not improve the q--it just holds things together with minimal loss). zack lau kh6cp/1 internet: zlau@arrl.org "working" on 24 ghz ssb/cw gear operating interests: 10 ghz cw/ssb/fm us mail: c/o arrl lab 80/40/20 cw 225 main street station capability: qrp, 1.8 mhz to 10 ghz newington ct 06111 modes: cw/ssb/fm/packet amtor/baudot phone (if you really have to): 203-666-1541 zack lau kh6cp/1 internet: zlau@arrl.org "working" on 24 ghz ssb/cw gear operating interests: 10 ghz cw/ssb/fm us mail: c/o arrl lab 80/40/20 cw 225 main street station capability: qrp, 1.8 mhz to 10 ghz newington ct 06111 modes: cw/ssb/fm/packet amtor/baudot phone (if you really have to): 203-666-1541 mask that is used. older boards (bakelite and phenolic) rarely used a solder mask (these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques) and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them. these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering (and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments). the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a "dry film" mask applied to them (usually applied as a complete film photographically produced). the blue (and red or orange) boards are a two-part epoxy or a liquid-imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner. there's a lot of info about the pro's and con's of each, but that's another story... sla/n go fo/ill, risky b. geoff swan (research & development) _--_|\ swanee@mega.com.au megadata pty ltd / \ 2/37 waterloo rd, north ryde, \_.--._/ +61 2 805 0899 nsw 2113, australia. v (fax) +61 2 887 4847 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54342">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54342" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm trying to bring in 8+ bits to a pc, and would like to use interrupt-driven routines. without buying an io board or making a new port, _where_ can i bring in these bits? lpt seems to have only a few inputs, but i've heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines. anybody know fer sure? if any bi-d lpts, which boards have them (i'll be running a new 386dx-33)? alan erickson erickson@baltic.nmt.edu to all sunrayce '93 competitors: i hope you're getting about as much sleep as i am..... i'm watching one being built right here at uvm and the team is shaggin' it these days. me170pjd@uvm.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54343">
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 i'm trying to bring in 8+ bits to a pc, and would like to use interrupt-driven routines. without buying an io board or making a new port, _where_ can i bring in these bits? lpt seems to have only a few inputs, but i've heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines. anybody know fer sure? if any bi-d lpts, which boards have them (i'll be running a new 386dx-33)? yes, it is possible. i'm making a 7 stepper controller board, with 7 digital inputs, and (up to) 18 digital outputs from the // port. one main thing that will tell you whether the // port is bi-directional or not is the bus tranceiver on it. look for a chip numbered 74ls245. if you don't have this, then it's probably a 74ls244, which will do you no good for reading in. now, if you do have the '245 then do the following: first, find the address of the port, (decimal) either 888, or 632. in pascal, you would "write(port[xxx]);" where xxx is the address in either hex or decimal. the status lines, pins 14, 16, 17, as well as the strobe, pin 1, are bi-directional lines, and are read by base address +2, so for 888, to read from status, then read from 890. you can also output to these lines in the same fashion as to the data lines. in pascal, do "port[xxx]:=value hope this helps. let me know if you need more help. inspiration | ___ | comes to | \ o baden@sys6626.bison.mb.ca | those who | ( ^ ) baden@inqmind.bison.mb.ca | seek the | /-\ =] baden de bari [= | unknown. | | as it happens, you've helped me quite a bit. i'm considering building a very similar device just for something to do this summer. the idea is to code the 8 output bits into multiple 2-bit current-amplified output channels. software will handle the way the amplified outputs are manipulated so that this magic box can handle more applications than just stepper motors. also looking for a robot arm (cheap) to attach this box to so i can wow and impress my friends. any hints? peter j demko me170pjd@uvm.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54344">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54344" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 a while ago i saw some translucent pads, about 6"x8" or so that could be plugged into (something) and they would glow. one was red, another green, another blue. interresting. i was wondering if anyone would have a feed on anything of this nature, and of the price. oh, the pads were rubber-like and were floppy like, about 1cm thick or the curiosities that you speak of are el (electro-luminescent) pads. they are mostly used as backlights for lcd's, and as you pointed out, comes in several different colors. many of them emit white-ish colors ("true" white, and blue-whiteis-blue are the ones that i've personally encountered the most often.) they vary in their input requirements, however, they tend to operate at about 100 vrms, and at much higher than 60 hz. (400 hz to 1 khz, if i recall correctly.) you can get them to work at 120 vrms, 60 hz (i.e., line) but they don't glow as brightly, and they will degrade much faster. (oh yes, almost forgot, el's have this tendency to wear out over time...) joseph chiu | josephc@cco.caltech.edu "os/2: you gotta get this thing!" msc 380 - caltech | pasadena, ca 91126 | dear ibm: hire bunch of technically incompetent people +1 818 449 5457 | (like my brother) to test os/2 installation procedures. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54347">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54347" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm trying to bring in 8+ bits to a pc, and would like to use interrupt-driven routines. without buying an io board or making a new port, _where_ can i bring in these bits? lpt seems to have only a few inputs, but i've heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines. anybody know fer sure? if any bi-d lpts, which boards have them (i'll be running a new 386dx-33)? i know for sure that the everex magic i/o ev-170a can be jumpered for a printer mode, or for a general purpose bidirectional i/o mode. also, i know for sure that the ibm technical reference says the following about the monochrome display & printer adapter and the ibm parallel printer adapter: it is essential that the external device not try to pull these lines [referring to the data lines] to ground. and later: if an external device should be driving data on these pins (in violation of usage ground rules) at the time of an input, this data will be `or'ed with the latch contents. i will accept no responsibility if you incur damages of any kind as a result of my saying, ``i do not know for sure, but i think you should be able to use a traditional parallel port as an input port by writing 0x to the data lines, and then reading from the data lines, while an external device drives them.'' the input data will not be latched, so noise could make this infeasible. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54348">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54348" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the color of the board shows the composition of it, hence the use of it. original and older boards were bakelite composition, and were brown. phenolic (spelling) was a tan most "non filled" fiberglass boards used in computers are green. filled fiberglass is blue. teflon is white. rubbish. the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder mask that is used. older boards (bakelite and phenolic) rarely used a solder mask (these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques) and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them. these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering (and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments). the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a "dry film" mask applied to them (usually applied as a complete film photographically produced). the blue (and red or orange) boards are a two-part epoxy or a liquid-imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner. there's a lot of info about the pro's and con's of each, but that's another story... sla/n go fo/ill, risky b. geoff swan (research & development) _--_|\ swanee@mega.com.au megadata pty ltd / \ 2/37 waterloo rd, north ryde, \_.--._/ +61 2 805 0899 nsw 2113, australia. v (fax) +61 2 887 4847 sorry geoff, agree solder mask is green, but in the old days we didn't have wave soldering machines (which are another topic again). i had a crew of a dozen ladies which could stuff and hand solder a board like lightning! board under the mask was the original query. btw cheap inport electronic devices (mainly from 3rd world countries) are done with brown pheonolic boards. is seems the electronics industry has discovered the cheap labor pools. workers are paid by the board to assemble circuits at home. they are very obviously hand soldered. quite a few tape recorders are being brought into canada from red china. in china there is no warranty for the equipment other than if you plug it in and it works it's yours. one of my co-workers spent a year there and he said the failure rate out of the box was almost 50%. also, the original method for making printed with conductive ink on a regular printing press. an old lithographer friend had a press for this. after the etching method was developed he used the press to print wood grain on doors. 73, tom tom wagner, audio visual technician. malaspina college nanaimo british columbia (604)753-3245, loc 2230 fax:755-8742 callsign:ve7gda weapon:.45 kentucky rifle snail mail to: site q4, c2. rr#4, nanaimo, british columbia, canada, v9r 5x9 i do not recyle..... i keep everything! (all standard disclaimers apply) 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54349">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54349" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 for some time i've been thinking about the possiblity of starting a group where scientific articles can be published (or perhaps just summaries). possible advantages would be: * free disribution * fast acceptance * online discussion between authers and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion. the best thing would be if all the articles would be in a standard format which would make it possible to print or view the documents camera ready. perhaps postscript or rich text format? but how do you start a new group? anyone interrested? greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university of technology 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54351">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54351" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort? it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction. thanx, mike michael deaddio (mts) | work hard, play hard, bell communication research | the only problem is that deaddio@thumper.bellcore.com | playing hard makes 201-829-5024 | working harder. mre 2q-260 | setra systems, 4 nagog park, acton, ma 01720, ph: (617) 263 - 1400 schaevitz engineering, us rt. 130 & union ave., pennsauken, nj 08110 ph: (710) 892 - 0714 accelerometers are not cheap, mainly because the outputs are fairly linear with respect to acceleration. you don't say what the range of acceleration you want to measure is, and there are other ways in which to measure it other than using an accelerometer. additional information would be helpful to anyone who may respond. call, if you wish. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54353">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54353" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i remember, back before commercial mikes with the "pzm" label (for pressure zone microphone) started showing up, i read an article, in some engineering journal, that described the principles involved. all the physics aside, from a practicle standpoint the author's said they built a prototype with nothing more than a small sony lavelier mike laid up against a large aluminum disk. in demonstrating it at a presentation to audio engineers, this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them. yup, it's not all that difficult to do. anyway...i want to build some to use as "choir mikes" (wide coverage). i've had good luck using some small electret mike elements i got from digi-key - most of these are limited-bandwidth, peakey units but for a buck or two more i got the ones spec'd to go out to 20khz with a bit flatter response. the panasonic cartridges aren't bad, but they aren't spectacular. the distance of the mike opening from the flat plate is kind of critical. i'm debating whether to mount it on it's side, which puts the opening a shade under 2mm from the plate, or mounting it with the opening actually pointing down into the plate at a small clearance. i haven't dissected a unit like you can buy at radio shack to see how they do it. thoughts? don't mount it on the side. call up crown, the company that has the patent on the pzm, and ask them for information on construction and use of the things. you may have to determine the correct spacing emperically with a noise source and a spectrum analyzer because the design of the panasonic cartridges uses a tuned cavity in front of the electret element to increase the high frequency response, and you are going to be altering the resistance through the cavity entrance. crown has a nice book on the subject, though it's unfortunately rather short on mathematics. there's a jaes article from many years back, too. still, for your application, you'll be a lot better off buying the cheap radio shack models and using phil rastoczny's modifications to get a clean balanced output. phil's mods seem to get reposted here on a regular --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54477">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54477" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does anyone have recommendations on whether a smart data i/o (print spooler, digital sampling, etc.) would be better implemented with a dma chip or a dedicated microcontroller? essentially what i am trying to decide is the best way to handle moving data from a port with automatic handshaking from or to a memory area that will be accessible by a main system processor when not in use by the smart data i/o. which dma or microcontroller chip would be best to use? fast, cheap, and easy to obtain would be nice, but i won't limit my choices to only those that fit those characteristics. even an 8086/8088 (under $5) would do what i want, but i am sure there is a better alternative -- like a microcontroller with onchip (e)eprom. so i essentially want to hear about all dma and microcontrollers that are simple to interface and will move data from one place to another while monitoring a few i/o lines. jeff white jhwhit01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54480">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54480" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 :lighter fluid is butane. it's absolutely non-toxic but is an extreme fire :hazard. you definately don't want to go splashing this stuff around. :(use a little on an old rag.) butane : "a colourless flammable gaseous alkane..." non-toxic? it has some effects when you inhale, allegedly, which can't all be down to asphyxia (imho). steve l. 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54482">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54482" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen, and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics (case with pins). try draftchoice, its not windows but its shareware and object oriented. use it with printgl for high quality output. look for spice or pspice 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54483">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54483" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i just got a copy of spice 5.2. i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one. i would appreciate any help. thank you neil gandler isbn 0-13-747270-6 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54484">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54484" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 jvannes@vms.macc.wisc.edu writes:.... i designed and built hardware in 1988 that would output a logic level (from a 567 tone detector) upon detecting a 500 microwatt led 28 feet away. used a motorola mrd360, biased linearly in a dc-feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight (and 60hz from lights). used no lenses. allen sullivan i would be interested in knowing more about the sensing hardware. what did you use for the detector? could you detect the angle of location, or did the system simply respond to the presence of the transmitter in the sensors field of view? phototransistor-> x100 -> x100 -> ne567 with 330kohm limiter feedback to base to control operating point (i expect this really hurts noise figure! any comments from phototransistor experts?) we intended to use this atop a stepper motor, to provide headings to the beacons. the plan was to have 3 or 4 beacons, of different frequencies, in each room, and tell the 567 what frequency to phase-lock to. we did not do so. one challenge was that the available stepper had 8 degree steps! knowing the headings to each beacon, we would have used the surveyor technique of resection to determine robot location. (no, i ain't going to explain resection over the net.) given hindsight, i would digitize the amplified output of the self-nulling phototransistor circuit, and correlate in-phase & quadrature square-waves at the several expected frequencies, to extract amplitude of each beacon. by doing this at the numerous steps, even with 8 degree steps, with knowledge of the angular response of the phototransistor, you should be able to rather more accurately determine the heading to each beacon. allen sullivan 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54487">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54487" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 re: ultrasonic pest repelling devices. the ones i've seen use piezoelectric transducers driven by a 35-85 khz swept oscillator. is there evidence that insects are actually repelled by these devices? can anybody cite gov't pubs, or independent lab studies? i saw another device that supposedly repels pests by "altering the electro-magnetic field of your house wiring". i suppose they capacitively couple a hi freq signal to the ac wiring. and this is supposed to repel pests???? how? by magnestriction of the wiring? i dont think so. i've been wondering about this myself. the house wiring thing is really hokey. there is no doubt that high pressure ultrasound is annoying, but to whom? given that these devices have been advertised to be effective against everything from insects to rodents to nasty dogs, what is to say that my insect repeller won't just annnoy my dog and give me headaches? could there be that much selectivity in frequencies? have there been any studies on the effects of various pressure levels, bands, and sweep patterns on various life forms? and how effective could they be? i certainly would not want to tell anyone that they are safe from nasty dogs because they were carrying a piezoelectric buzzer... jeff babb babb@sciences.sdsu.edu babb@ucssun1.sdsu.edu programmer, sdsu - larc kurt a. geisel snail : 7 quaker rd. white pine software, inc. nashua, nh 03063 arpa2 : kurtg@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu bix : kgeisel genie : k.geisel air : n3jtw "i will not be pushed, filed, indexed, stamped, briefed, debriefed, or numbered!" - the prisoner 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54489">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54489" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i'm trying to build a mixer for a friend of mine to run several things into a single boom box. i have a circuit that uses an op-amp powered by either a couple of 9v batteries or using some kind of power supply. but in a catalog i was looking at recently, a "passive mixer" for guitar was advertised taht doesn't appear to use any power at all. does anyone know what the circuit for this would be, because then i could just adapt it for rca jacks, and save my friend and i alot of messing with batteries and plugs. thanks. well, the fastest, crudest mixer (aside from just physically connecting all your inputs together directly) is to run each signal through a resistor to a common output. the resistors give some isolation so the signal sources aren't driving directly into each other. taking a wild, seat-of-the-pants guess, i'd say that if you are mixing high-impedance sources like some dynamic mikes, electric guitar pickups, etc., your resistors ought to be maybe 5k - 10k or so. if you are mixing line-level stuff or the outputs of a walkman, or such, i'd go with 1k. input 1 --/\/\/\/ -------------+--- output input 2 --/\/\/\/\-------------+ input 3 --/\/\/\/\-------------+ paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens . 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54490">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54490" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 <lots of stuff deleted> the lead-acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic. i am glad you do not dispute this point. if you don't want the lead storage battery to discharge, it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state. during winter, the ground, be it covered with concrete, dirt, or wood, maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery. the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete, dirt, or wood, so it heats faster. conversely, air cools faster, too. the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement. the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air, with the battery temperature somewhere in-between. e.g., the basement air temperature may be 70 f, the floor temperature 65 f, and the battery temperature 66 f. the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature. the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient. the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature, and heat is going to move to it. the floor is an incredible heat sink. might depend on where you live .. i know locally, for most of the winter the ground, and concrete floor, within sheds and garages (unheated) is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature. the air does get warmer during the day, but during the night, the ground and concrete is definitely warmer, especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect. and the nights are longer by several hours than the <rest of quoted text deleted> jeff white jhwhit01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu richard dell 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54492">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54492" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one? i know at least the british system is not -- it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work. but my modem (american) has a special setting for british standards... bzzzzzt! wrong answer. the uk tone dialling is identical to the us system. the different settings on your modem are so that it uses ccitt v21 & v22 tones for data transmission, rather than bell 103 & bell 121 tones, which are used only in the usa and canada afaik. as most people now use at least v22bis, this is largely irrelevant. |tony kidson | ** pgp 2.2 key by request ** |voice +44 81 466 5127 | |morgan towers, | the cat has had to move now |e-mail(in order) | |morgan road, | as i've had to take the top |tony@morgan.demon.co.uk | |bromley, | off of the machine. |tny@cix.compulink.co.uk | |england br1 3qe|honda st1100 -=<*>=- dod# 0801|100024.301@compuserve.com| 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54493">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54493" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i was a bit surprised that the manual for my fluke-87 multimeter suggests applying wd-40 to the test lead sockets, especially the current range socket. the intention is to prevent the test-lead-is-in-the-wrong-scocket beeper from going off when there is no test lead in that socket. the manual is a bit vague, but i think i'd apply the wd-40 to a swab, then wipe the socket instead of spaying the stuff directly from the can. speaking of said meters: i compared the 87 against the 8060a that i've had on my bench for almost 11 years. it has been five years since the 8060a has been calibrated. on the dc scale, they agree within .01 mv. ac scale is within about .1 mv. the 87 would be just about the perfect portable meter if it had the db scale; i didn't feel it was worth the extra $100 for a second 8060 since i don't use db all that much in my work. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54494">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54494" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i've bothered the rental shops and audio shops about the problem, but most of them have precious little experience in dealing with generated power. my suspicion is that i don't really need anything larger than 2kw and this could all be resolved with a transformer of some sort. nope. your problem is either being caused by excessive voltage drop in the long cable from the generator, or just plain not having enough power. i would suspect that those amps are going to draw a lot of current on short you can try using larger (and shorter) cables to the generator, or try strapping the amps for 240v service and running 240v mains cables out, which will minimize the line drop. if these don't work, though, you're going to need a bigger generator. i assume that you're using well-maintained generators, and have watched the voltage output on the generator properly. if you don't have 120v coming out of the unloaded generator you'll never get 120v at the other end. can anyone offer any advice? i want to do a lot of outdoor events this summer, and it would be nice if this power problem could be resolved easily. i've been looking into buying a power-pack so i could tap into junction boxes directly, but have no idea where to start. one that would resolve my generator problems as well would be of high value to me. i recommend you talk with an electrician who has experience in this sort of work, and not with the pro-audio people. also, i recommend that you don't try to tap into junction boxes at all, but hire a licensed electrician if you don't really know what you are doing. i've had to clean up after two people who nearly killed themselves playing in hot 200a boxes, and it wasn't much fun. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54495">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54495" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 basically, i am looking for something to operate in the ranges of accelerations found in an automobile environment. i would like the device to operate as a trigger for other systems when the car's deceleration reaches a threshold value (which is how i assume some seat belt lock mechanisms and air bag deployment systems work?). open up one of the airbag control boxes. they have inexpensive piezoelectric accelerometers in them. i know that the gm cars use the setra units. the cheapest way to get such an accelerometer is to cannibalize an existing automotive unit. incidentally, these things aren't very linear, but for the application they would do a fine job. --scott 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54496">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54496" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 while i have gotten 8-9 years out of this digital receiver, it has been acting verry strange of late. i hope that the following symptoms may help someone diagnose the error: - i know that whatever lithium memory backup it had - has long died thus if i unplug it - it won't remember the presets - it has given up listening to the remote. (i tried changing the remote's batteries) when i try a remote function - the receiver registers that it received it (a green remote light flashes) but the right function doesn't happen - if any function at all. (also strange- when i hit the "mute" button, for example, the display panel goes black - yikes- i've never seen that before ...) - before all the strangeness started, the system turned itself off and on again - by itself - sometimes it won't play a radio station, so i have to kinda twist it (yes kinda flex the motherboard, chasis) for it to get the radio tuning back - the aux in function always works however.... it is inconvenient, but not inconvenient enough to pay an expensive repair fee. while, i'm not a hardware guy, i wonder if something as simple as a surge supressor will be a quick fix. the strange thing is that these symptoms come and go ... someone told me this unit series has a bad voltage amp chip. -anyway ...arghh 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54497">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54497" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 i don't know for sure that this will work, but you might try mek (methyl ethyl keytone?). it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper, and is available at paint stores. use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation--this stuff really stinks! :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< if you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses or better still industrial goggles. the small est drop in the eye will casue blindness by a catalysis reaction that is non cureavble once it starts. the results are similar to mustard gas contamination. note mek peroxide is a hardner form fibreglass resins. dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa, ontario, canada internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca 
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<instance id="sci.electronics54499">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54499" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 summary: how about starting a group where scientific articles can be pre-publish for some time i've been thinking about the possibility of starting a group where scientific articles can be published (or perhaps just summaries). possible advantages would be: * free distribution * fast acceptance * online discussion between authors and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion. i think its a great, but idealistic idea. a reseacher will first of all try to publish a worthy paper in a credible, professional magazine and not in a community like usenet which is infamous for lots (not all) of junk information. the papers that will be "published" here will, in general, be of low quality. also, it is improbable that any credit will be given to a researcher who publish here - and sadly, that is nowadays a main reason for usenet is great for informal discussions and free exchange of ideas - keep it like that. a new, specialist group is just not worth it. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54500">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54500" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 fiberglass boards are available in several colors. sitting right here, i have unetched board stock that is white, blue, green and yellow respectively. i've also seen black boards. solder mask is available in a variety of colors too. depending on the supplier, the color helps indentify the material. don't forget conformal coating. i don't think i've seen phenolic impregnated paper boards in anything other than the familar brown, but it would not be difficult to add a dye to change the color. bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown, oh 44272-9995 usa phone: 216-325-2511 wtm@uhura.neoucom.edu (140.220.1.1) 146.580: n8wed 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54501">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54501" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 the discussion under the old topic went in the wrong direction. some people, instead of discussing the issue itself, they decided to discuss the non-technical part of the issue. so, here i go with my limited knowledge about this issue. hoping you guys cut the crap and talk about the real technical ways to do this. the methods that i am aware that are effective are: 1- laser hole burning. this would leave the disk damaged, so if you format that particular sector of the disk you can not write to it. it is very laser holes are (or were) used to prevent someone from making exact copies of a disk. you do not want to write to the damaged disk, only read and use the programs. hard for crackers to damage the disk exactly the same way. i remember a program called copywrite that could copy a disk with a laser hole in it. i think it simulates the laser hole. after copying the disk the program is, if necessary, used in conjunction with a program called nokey or something. (the program tells you which program to use) no solution. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.electronics54503">
<answer instance="sci.electronics54503" senseid="sci.electronics"/>
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 <lots of stuff deleted> the lead-acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic. i am glad you do not dispute this point. if you don't want the lead storage battery to discharge, it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state. during winter, the ground, be it covered with concrete, dirt, or wood, maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery. the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete, dirt, or wood, so it heats faster. conversely, air cools faster, too. the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement. the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air, with the battery temperature somewhere in-between. e.g., the basement air temperature may be 70 f, the floor temperature 65 f, and the battery temperature 66 f. the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature. the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient. the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature, and heat is going to move to it. the floor is an incredible heat sink. might depend on where you live .. i know locally, for most of the winter the ground, and concrete floor, within sheds and garages (unheated) is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature. the air does get warmer during the day, but during the night, the ground and concrete is definitely warmer, especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect. and the nights are longer by several hours than the <rest of quoted text deleted> jeff white jhwhit01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu richard dell sorry about following up my own article, but i wanted to continue that what might be being missed here is that the important thing might not be temperature differences per se, but the action of heat sinking the battery. perhap someone could conduct an experiment, taking two identical lead acid batteries, placing both on wooden shelves, but putting one of them in a water bath designed to act as a heat sink. this would eliminate the 'concrete floor effect', and keep both batteries at the same ambient temperature. i think the argument over temperatures is not pertinent, but the one over heat conductance and removing the exothermic heat may have some validity. richard dell 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med57110">
<answer instance="sci.med57110" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have a 42 yr old male friend, misdiagnosed as having osteopporosis for two years, who recently found out that his illness is the rare gaucher's disease. gaucher's disease symptoms include: brittle bones (he lost 9 inches off his hieght); enlarged liver and spleen; internal bleeding; and fatigue (all the time). the problem (in type 1) is attributed to a genetic mutation where there is a lack of the enzyme glucocerebroside in macrophages so the cells swell up. this will eventually cause death. enyzme replacement therapy has been successfully developed and approved by the fda in the last few years so that those patients administered with this drug (called ceredase) report a remarkable improvement in their condition. ceredase, which is manufactured by biotech biggy company--genzyme--costs the patient $380,000 per year. gaucher's disease has justifyably been called "the most expensive disease in the world". need info: i have researched gaucher's disease at the library but am relying on netlanders to provide me with any additional information: **news, stories, reports **people you know with this disease **ideas, articles about genzyme corp, how to get a hold of enough money to buy some, programs available to help with **basically any help you can offer thanks so very much! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58045">
<answer instance="sci.med58045" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 another uncommon problem is maternal hemorrhage. i don't remember the incidence, but it is something like 1 in 1,000 or 10,000 births. it is hard to see how you could handle it at home, and you wouldn't have very much time. thing you might consider is that people's risk tradeoffs vary. i consider a 1/1,000 risk of loss of a loved one to require considerable effort in the avoiding. mark, you seem to be terrified of the birth process that's ridiculous! and unable to believe that women's bodies are actually designed to do it. they aren't designed, they evolved. and, much as it discomforts us, in humans a trouble-free birth process was sacrificed to increased brain and cranial size. wild animals have a much easier time with birth than humans do. domestic horses and cows typically have a worse time. to give you an idea: my family tree is complicated because a few of my pioneer great-great- grandfathers had several wives, and we never could figure out which wife had each child. one might ask why this happened. my great-great- grandfathers were, by the time they reached their forties, quite prosperous farmers. nonetheless, they lost several wives each to the rigors of childbirth; the graveyards in spencer, indiana, and boswell, north dakota, contain quite a few gravestones like "ida, wf. of jacob liptrap, and baby, may 6, 1853." you wanted to section all women carrying breech in case one in a hundred or a thousand breech babies get hung up in second stage, more like one in ten. and the consequences can be devastating; i have direct experience of more than a dozen victims of a fouled-up breech birth. and now you want all babies born in hospital based on a guess of how likely maternal hemorrhage is and a false belief that it is fatal. it isn't always fatal. but it is often fatal, when it happens out of reach of adequate help. more often, it permanently damages one's health. clearly women's bodies _evolved_ to give birth (i am no believer in divine design); however, evolution did not favor trouble-free births for humans. you have your kids where you want. you encourage your wife to get six inch holes cut through her stomach muscles, expose herself to anesthesia and infection, and whatever other "just in case" measures you think are necessary. my, aren't we wroth! i haven't read a more outrageous straw man attack in months! i can practically see your mouth foam. we're statistically sophisticated enough to balance the risks. although i can't produce exact statistics 5 years after the last time we looked them up, rest assured that we balanced c-section risks against other risks. i wouldn't encourage my wife to have a caesarean unless it was clearly indicated; on the other hand, i am opposed (on obvious grounds) to waiting until an emergency to give in. and bear this in mind: my wife took the lead in all of these decisions. we talked things over, and i did a lot of the leg work, but the main decisions were really hers. but i for one am bothered by your continued suggestions, especially to the misc.kidders pregnant for the first time, that birth is dangerous, even fatal, and that all these unpleasant things are far better than the risks you run just doing it naturally. i don't know of very many home birth advocates, even, that think that a first-time mother should have her baby at home. i'm no luddite. i've had a section. i'm planning a hospital birth this time. but for heaven's sake, not everyone needs that! but people should bother to find out the relative risks. my wife was unwilling to take any significant risks in order to have nice surroundings. in view of the intensity of the birth experience, i doubt surroundings have much importance anyway. somehow the values you're advocating seem all lopsided to me: taking risks, even if fairly small, of serious permanent harm in order to preserve something that is, after all, an esthetic consideration. mark a. fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk@cs.rochester.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58046">
<answer instance="sci.med58046" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i sometimes see otc preparations for muscle aches/back aches that combine aspirin with a diuretic. the idea seems to be to reduce inflammation by getting rid of fluid. does this actually work? -larry c. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58048">
<answer instance="sci.med58048" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 how long does it take a smoker's lungs to clear of the tar after quitting? does your chances of getting lung cancer decrease quickly or does it take a considerable amount of time for that to happen? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58049">
<answer instance="sci.med58049" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> forget about total cholesterol when assessing health risk factors. |> instead, use a relationship between ldl and hdl cholesterol: |> if your ldl is you need an hdl of at least |> 90 35 |> 100 45 |> 110 50 |> 120 55 |> 130 60 |> 140 70 gee, what do i do? my ldl is only 50-60. (and my hdl is only 23-25) i must be risking something, but is it the same risk as those with very high ldl? |> if your triglycerides are above 300, and your hdl is below 30, the |> drug of choice is gemfibrozil (lopid) taken as a 600mg tablet |> thirty minutes before your morning and evening meals. what about exercise and a low-fat diet? what are the long-term effects of this drug? doug bank private systems division dougb@ecs.comm.mot.com motorola communications sector dougb@nwu.edu schaumburg, illinois dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 708-576-8207 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58050">
<answer instance="sci.med58050" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have question that i hope is taken seriously, despite the subject content. problem: my long time girlfriend lately has not been initiating any sexual activity. for the last four months things have changed dramatically. --to make this shorter-- summary: nothing that i can think of has changed.... she suggested we go to a sex counselor, but i really don't want to (just yet). any suggestions would be appreciated. if you think you can help me, please contact me by e-mail for further info. please serious replies only. thanks, larry larry: the subject content is serious; as is the question. on one hand you state that "things have changed dramatically" but, at the same time nothing you "can think of has changed". your girlfriend seems to want to see a counselor, but you don't. i'd recommend that you examine your hesitation to see a counselor. it's a very good environment to examine issues. the fact of the matter is: your girlfriend has a different perception than you. the two of you need to address the issue in order to resolve it. please consider going to a counselor with your girlfriend. what could it possibly hurt? cliff (the paramedic) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58060">
<answer instance="sci.med58060" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 unfortunately it was rather poorly researched, and would not be available today if it were just invented. keep in mind however that those were the days when a bottle of coca cola really did contain coca extract and a certain amount of active cocaine. times have changed, and our attitudes need to change with them. well, yes. that was a part of my point. aspirin has its problems, but in some situations it is useful. ditto stuff like licorice root. taking anything as a drug for theraputic purposes implicitly carries the idea of taking a dose where the benefits are not exceeded by any unwanted, additional effects. taking any drug when the potential ill-effects are not known is a risk assumed by the parties involved, and it may be that in a given situation the risk is worthwhile. like prozac, for instance; prozac has been shown to be theraputic in some cases where the tri-cyclics fail. but prozac hasn't been in use that long, and it really isn't clear what if any effects it may have when taken over long periods of time, even though it has been tested by present day standards. should prozac be taken off the market because long-term effects, if any, are not known? imho, i'd say no. = kenneth gilbert | university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine --*-- pittsburgh, pa = = kxgst1+@pitt.edu | "...dammit, not a programmer! = = kenneth gilbert | university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine --*-- pittsburgh, pa = = kxgst1+@pitt.edu | "...dammit, not a programmer! = euclid k. standard disclaimers apply "it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model [of light] to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace." --hudson & nelson (_university_physics_) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58061">
<answer instance="sci.med58061" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine has a trouble with her ears ringing. the ringing is so loud that she has great difficulty sleeping at night. she says that she hasn't had a normal night's sleep in about 6 months (she looks like it too :-(). this is making her depressed so her doctor has put her on anti-depressants. the ringing started rather suddenly about 6 months ago. she is quickly losing sleep, social life and sanity over this. does anyone know of any treatments for this? any experience? coping mechanisms? any opinions on the anti-depressant drugs? [j.f.] 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58062">
<answer instance="sci.med58062" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm surprised nobody mentioned that twitching of the eyelid can be a symptom of an infection, especially if it also itches or stings. (it happened to me, and antibiotic eyedrops cleared it up nicely.) :- michael a. covington internet mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542-0358 : ********* :- the university of georgia fax 706 542-0349 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58065">
<answer instance="sci.med58065" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine has a trouble with her ears ringing. the ringing is so loud that she has great difficulty sleeping at night. she says that she hasn't had a normal night's sleep in about 6 months (she looks like it too :-(). this is making her depressed so her doctor has put her on anti-depressants. sometimes i have a problem with doctor's prescribing medicine like this. i of course don't know the exact situation, and anti-depressants may work, but it isn't helping the ringing at all, is it? the ringing started rather suddenly about 6 months ago. she is quickly losing sleep, social life and sanity over this. mine started about three years back. turns out i have tinnitus bilateral (translation: ringing in both ears, basically ;). if this is what it is, she'll probably get used to it. it would keep me up and drive me nuts too, but nowadays, i have to plug both my ears with my fingers to check to see if they are ringing. usually they are, but you get so used to it, it just gets tuned out. yes, this is what i've read about it... not just from my own personal experience. does anyone know of any treatments for this? any experience? coping mechanisms? any opinions on the anti-depressant drugs? millions have it, according to my physician. you just learn to cope with it (like i mentioned earlier) by ignoring it. it eventually becomes unconscious. the doc also said it could be caused by diet (ie: too much caffeine) and stress, but i haven't changed my lifestyle much, and it just comes and goes (it is always there somewhat, but now i rarely notice it when it really "kicks in"). also, it doesn't necessarily mean there is any hearing loss, either caused by it or causing it. i had an ent (ear/nose/throat) exam, and passed. in fact, my hearing is quite good considering i don't take as good of care of my hearing as i should. her reaction is normal. if it is tinnitus, chances are good she'll begin to not even notice it. this info is taken mostly from a few "experts", my own experience, and some readings (sorry, it was a few years back and don't have any specifics handy). 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58066">
<answer instance="sci.med58066" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine is going in later this week for tests to see if has emphysema. his lung capacity has decreased over time. his father died of the disease. he works in woodworking. i believe he has a very occasional cigarette, perhaps one cigarette a day or even less. he tells me this..i've never seen him light up. he has some pretty healthy life style habits, good diet, exercise, meditation, retreats, therapy etc. anyhow..he is very concerned with this check up. i know really nothing about the disease. i believe it interferes with the lining of the lung being able to exchange oxygen. is a diagnosis of emphysema a death sentence? if he were to give up smoking entirely would that better his chances for recovery? what are some modern therapies used in people with this disease? i would appreciate any information. thanks. amigan@cup.portal.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58071">
<answer instance="sci.med58071" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 there is this newsgroup sci.med.physics and there has been quite a lot discussion in this group about many chemical items e.g. prolactin cholesterol, tsh etc. should there also be a newsgroup sci.med.chemistry? antero julkunen, dept clinical chemistry, university of kuopio, finland e-mail: julkunen@messi.uku.fi, phone +358-71-162680, fax +358-71-162020 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58072">
<answer instance="sci.med58072" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend has the following symptoms which have occurred periodically every few months for the last 3 years. an episode begins with extreme tiredness followed by: 1. traveling joint pains and stiffness affecting mostly the elbows, knees, and hips. 2. generalized muscle pains 3. tinnitus and a feeling of pressure in her ears 4. severe sweating occuring both at night and during the day 5. hemorrhaging in both eyes. her opthamologist calls it peripheral retinal hemorhages and says it looks similar to diabetic retinopathy. (she isn't diabetic--they checked. 6. distorted color vision and distorted vision in general (telephone poles do not appear to be straight) 7. loss of peripheral vision. many tests have been run and all are normal except for something called unidentified bright objects found on a mri of her brain. the only thing that seems to alleviate one of these episodes is prednisone. at times she had been on 60 mg per day. whenever she gets down to 10-15 mg the symptoms become acute again. she is quite concerned because the retinal hemorrhages are becoming worse with each episode and her vision is suffering. none of the docs she has seen have any idea what this condition is or what can be done to stop it. any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance. kathy turner 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58073">
<answer instance="sci.med58073" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 gordon, your experience is valid for many, but not all. the fact that you know a few people who have been overweight and are now stable at a lower (normal or just less?) weight does not contradict the observation that only 5-10 per cent can maintain ideal weight with current technology. actually, the observation is that only 5-10% of those who seek help from your so-called "diet evangelists" can maintain their weight. i happen to agree with keith lynch that there are many people who can and do lose weight on their own, and who are not reflected in the dismal failure rate that is often quoted. wasn't there a study where a researcher asked a more general population, perhaps some part of a university community, about weight loss and he/she found that a much higher percentage had lost and maintained? in fact adiposity 101 mentions a similar study (search for "life events" in any recent version of adiposity 101). the problem with anecdotal reports about individuals who have lost weight and kept it off is that we don't know what caused the weight gain in the first place. this is critical because someone who gains weight because of something temporary (drug effect, life event, etc.) may appear successful at dieting when the weight loss was really the result of reversing the temporary condition that caused the weight gain. chuck forsberg wa7kgx ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf author of ymodem, zmodem, professional-yam, zcomm, and dsz omen technology inc "the high reliability software" 17505-v nw sauvie is rd portland or 97231 503-621-3406 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58074">
<answer instance="sci.med58074" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 getting back to the original question in this thread: i experienced breathing difficulties a few years ago similar to those described. in my case, it turned out that i was developing type i diabetes. although i never sought direct confirmation of this from my doctor, i think that the breathing problem was associated with the presence of ketones due to the diabetes. i think that ketosis can occur in lesser degree if one is restricting their food intake drastically. i don't know if this relevant in this case, but you might ask your daughter if she has been eating steve kirchoefer (202) 767-2862 code 6851 kirchoefer@estd.nrl.navy.mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington, dc 20375-5000 electronics sci. and tech. division 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58078">
<answer instance="sci.med58078" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 hi there, i have a very oily skin. my problem is when i wash my face, it becomes oily in half an hour. especially in the nose region. is this an illness? how can i prevent it from occuring in such short time? is there a cleanser out there that will do a better job -- that is after cleaning, my face won't become oily in such a short time. thank you for any suggestion. if this is a disease, everyone should have it. my skin has always been oily - i used to say "if i were hot enough, you could fry an egg on my oily face". i am now 50 yrs old and my skin looks younger (i'm told) than some people's skin at 30 (it's still oily). i have only a very few tiny wrinkles. thank your lucky stars for that skin. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58079">
<answer instance="sci.med58079" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a very simple question : it seems to me that the contraceptive pill just prevents the ovule to nest in the vagina and forces it to fall every month. but it does not prevent the fertilzation of the ovule. is it true ? if yes, is there a risk of extra-uterine pregnancy, that is the development of the ovule inside the fallopian tube ? j.cherbonnier jec@zurich.ibm.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58080">
<answer instance="sci.med58080" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 there were a few people who responded to my request for info on treatment for astrocytomas through email, whom i couldn't thank directly because of mail-bouncing probs (sean, debra, and sharon). so i thought i'd publicly thank everyone. thanks! (i'm sure glad i accidentally hit "rn" instead of "rm" when i was trying to delete a file last september. "hmmm... 'news?' what's this?"....) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58082">
<answer instance="sci.med58082" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 in <julkunen.734086202@messi.uku.fi> julkunen@messi.uku.fi (antero there is this newsgroup sci.med.physics and there has been quite a lot discussion in this group about many chemical items e.g. prolactin cholesterol, tsh etc. should there also be a newsgroup sci.med.chemistry? it's got potential. instead of *.chemistry, how about splitting the classification into *.biochemistry (which are probably the topics you're thinking of) and *.pharmaceutical (which otherwise might end up in *.(bio)chemistry)? (this is separate from the issue of whether there is sufficient potential news volume to support either or both groups.) i'll add 'em to my medical/health newsgroup wish list (which i'm looking forward to posting and discussing -- but not for another 10 days or so). 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58085">
<answer instance="sci.med58085" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i have a friend who has just been diagnosed with lupus, and i know nothing about this disease. the only thing i do know is that this is some sort of skin disease, and my friend shows no skin rashes - in fact, they used a blood test to determine what had been wrong with an on going sacro- illiac joint problem. i am finding a hard time finding information on this disease. could anyone please enlighten me as to the particulars of this disease. please feel free to e-mail me at bytor@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us thanks in advance. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58101">
<answer instance="sci.med58101" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 can anyone out there enlighten me on the relationship between lung disorders and "clubbing", or swelling and widening, of the fingertips? what is the mechanism and why would a physician call for chest xrays to diagnose the cause of the clubbing? purists often distinguish between "true" clubbing and "pseudo" clubbing, the difference being that with "true" clubbing the angle of the nail when viewed from the side is constantly negative when proceeding distally (towards the fingertip). with "pseudo" clubbing, the angle is initially positive, then negative, which is the normal situation. "real" internists can talk for hours about clubbing. i'm limited to a couple of minutes. whether this distinction has anything to do with reality is entirely unclear, but it is one of those things that internists love to paw over during rounds. supposedly, only "true" clubbing is associated with disease. the problem is that the list of diseases associated with clubbing is quite long, and includes both congenital conditions and acquired disease. since many of these diseases are associated with cardiopulmonary problems leading to right to left shunts and chronic hypoxemia, it is very reasonable to get a chest xray. however, many of the congenital abnormalities would only be diagnosed with a cardiac the cause of clubbing is unclear, but presumably relates to some factor causing blood vessels in the distal fingertip to dilate abnormally. clubbing is one of those things from an examination which is a tipoff to do more extensive examination. often, however, the cause of the clubbing is quite apparent. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58105">
<answer instance="sci.med58105" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i shouldn't have to be posting here. physicians should know the lyme literature beyond steere & co's denial merry-go-round. patients should get correctly diagnosed and treated. why do you think steere is doing this? isn't he acting in good faith? after all, as the "discoverer" of lyme for all intents and purposes, the more famous lyme gets, the more famous steere gets. i don't see the ulterior motive here. it is easy for me to see it the those physicians who call everything lyme and treat everything. there is a lot of money involved. i'm a computer engineer, not a doctor (,jim). i was building a computer manufacturing company when i got lyme. i lost several years of my life to near-total disability; partially as a result, the company failed, taking with it over 150 jobs, my savings, and everything i'd worked for for years. i'm one of the "lucky" ones in that i found a physician through the lyme foundation and now can work almost full-time, although i have persistent infection and still suffer a variety of sypmtoms. and now i try to follow the lyme literature. well, it is tragic what has happened to you, but it doesn't necessarily make you the most objective source of information about it. if your whole life is focussed around this, you may be too emotionally involved to be advising other people who may or may not have lyme. certainly advocacy of more research on lyme would not be out of order, though, and people like you can be very effective there. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58107">
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 this past weekend a friend of mine lost his 13 month old daughter in a matter of hours to a form of menangitis. the person informing me called it 'nicereal meningicocis' (sp?). in retrospect, the disease struck her probably sometime on friday evening and she passed away about 2:30pm on saturday. the symptoms seemed to be a rash that started small and then began progressing rapidly. she began turning blue eventually which was the tip-off that this was serious but by that time it was too late (this is all second hand info.). my question is: is this an unusual form of menangitis? how is it transmitted? how does it work (ie. how does it kill so quickly)? no, the neiseria meningococcus is one of the most common forms of meningitis. it's the one that sometimes sweeps schools or boot camp. it is contagious and kills by attacking the covering of the brain, causing the blood vessels to thrombose and the brain to swell up. it is very treatable if caught in time. there isn't much time, however. the rash is the tip off. infants are very susceptible to dying from bacterial meningitis. any infant with a fever who becomes stiff or lethargic needs to be rushed to a hospital where a spinal tap will show if they have meningitis. seizures can also immediate family members were told to take some kind of medication to prevent them from being carriers, yet they didn't have any concerns about my wife and i coming to visit them. it can live in the throat of carriers. don't worry, you won't get it from them, especially if they took the medication. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 my 14-y-o son has the usual teenage spotty chin and greasy nose. i bought him clearasil face wash and ointment. i think that is probably enough, along with the usual good diet. however, he is on at me to get some product called dalacin t, which used to be a doctor's-prescription only treatment but is not available over the chemist's counter. i have asked a couple of pharmacists who say either his acne is not severe enough for dalacin t, or that clearasil is ok. i had the odd spots as a teenager, nothing serious. his father was the same, so i don't figure his acne is going to escalate into something disfiguring. but i know kids are senstitive about their appearance. i am wary because a neighbour's son had this wierd malady that was eventually put down to an overdose of vitamin a from acne treatment. i want to help - but with appropriate treatment. my son also has some scaliness around the hairline on his scalp. sort of teenage cradle cap. any pointers/advice on this? we have tried a couple of anti dandruff shampoos and some of these are inclined to make the condition worse, not better. shall i bury the kid till he's 21 :) :) no...i was one of the lucky ones. very little acne as a teenager. i didn't have any luck with clearasil. even though my skin gets oily it really only gets miserable pimples when it's dry. frequent lukewarm water rinses on the face might help. getting the scalp thing under control might help (that could be as simple as submerging under the bathwater till it's softened and washing it out). taking a one a day vitamin/mineral might help. i've heard iodine causes trouble and that it is used in fast food restaurants to sterilize equipment which might be where the belief that greasy foods cause acne came from. i notice grease on my face, not immediately removed will cause acne (even from eating meat). keeping hair rinse, mousse, dip, and spray off the face will help. warm water bath soaks or cloths on the face to soften the oil in the pores will help prevent blackheads. body oil is hydrophilic, loves water and it softens and washes off when it has a chance. that's why hair goes limp with becoming convinced that the best thing to do with a whitehead is leave it alone will save him days of pimple misery. any prying of black or whiteheads can cause infections, the red spots of pimples. usually a whitehead will break naturally in a day and there won't be an infection afterwards. tell him that it's normal to have some pimples but the cosmetic industry makes it's money off of selling people on the idea that they are an incredible defect to be hidden at any cost (even that of causing more pimples). -jackie- 
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<instance id="sci.med58112">
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 i may not be the world's greatest expert on chiggers (a type of mite indigenous to the south), but i certainly have spent a lot of time contemplating the little buggers over the past six years (since we moved to n.c.). here are some observations gained from painful experience: 1. reactions to chiggers vary greatly from person to person. some people get tiny red bites. others (like me) are more sensitive and get fairly large swollen sore-like affairs. 2. chigger bites are the gift that keeps on giving. i swear that these things will itch for months. 3. there is a lot of folklore about chiggers. i think most of it is fiction. i have tried to do research on the critters, since they have such an effect on me. the only book i could find on the subject was a *single* book in unc's special collections library. i have not yet gone through what is required to get it. 4. based on my experience and that of my family members, the old folk remedy of fingernail polish simply doesn't work. i recall reading that the theory upon which it is based (that the chiggers burrow into your skin and continue to party there) is false. i think it is more likely that the reaction is to toxins of some sort the little pests release. but this is speculation. 5. the *best* approach is prevention. a couple of things work well. a good insect repellent (deet) such as deep woods off liberally applied to ankles, waistband, etc. is a good start. there is another preparation called "chig away" that is a combination of sulfur and some kind of cream (cortisone?) that originally was prepared for the army and is not commercially available. in the summer i put this on my ankles every morning when i get up on weekends since i literally can't go outside where we live (in the country) without serious consequences. (they apparently don't like sulfur much at all. you can use sulfur as a dust on your body or clothing to repel them.) 6. no amount of prevention will be *completely* successful. forget the fingernail polish. i have finally settled upon a treatment that involves topical application of a combination of cortisone creme (reduces the inflamation and swelling) and benzocaine (relieves the itch). i won't tell you all the things i've tried. nor will i tell you some of the things my wife does since this counts as minor surgery and is best not mentioned (i also think it gains nothing). 7. the swelling and itching can also be significantly relieved by the application of hot packs, and this seems to speed recovery as well. doctors seem not to care much about chiggers. the urban and suburban doctors apparently don't encounter them much. and the rural doctors seem to regard them as a force of nature that one must endure. i suspect that anyone who could come up with a good treatment for chiggers would make a *lot* of money. gary h. merrill [principal systems developer, c compiler development] sas institute inc. / sas campus dr. / cary, nc 27513 / (919) 677-8000 sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm 
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<instance id="sci.med58114">
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 explain. i thought there were 3 types of cones, equivalent to rgb. you're basically right, but i think there are just 2 types. one is sensitive to red and green, and the other is sensitive to blue and yellow. this is why the two most common kinds of color-blindness are red-green and blue-yellow. yes, i remember that now. well, in that case, the cones are indeed color sensitive, contrary to what the original respondent had claimed. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58116">
<answer instance="sci.med58116" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 by the way, does the brain even have pain receptors? i thought not--i heard that brain surgery can be performed while the patient is conscious for precisely this reason. no, no, we aren't talking about receptors for the brain's sensory innervation, but structures such as the thalamus that handle pain for the entire organism. apples and oranges. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58122">
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 i would like any information available on this rare disease. i understand that an operation referred to as pollidotomy may be in order. does anyone know of a physician that performs this procedure. all responses will be appreciated. please respond via email to ktodd@walrus.mvhs.edu it isn't that rare, actually. many cases that are called parkinson's disease turn out on autopsy to be snd. it should be suspected in any case of parkinsonism without tremor and which does not respond to l-dopa therapy. i don't believe pallidotomy will do much for snd. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58124">
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 dr. banks, i don't know if you make a point of keeping up with liver transplant research but you're certainly in the right place for these questions. has there been anything recent in "transplant proceedings" or somesuch, on xenografts? how about liver section transplants from living donors? i'm sure the pittsburgh group has published the baboon work, but i don't know where. in chicago they were doing lobe transplants from living donors, and i'm sure they've published. i don't read the transplant literature. i just see the liver transplant patients when they get into neurologic trouble (pretty frequent), so that and the newspapers and scuttlebutt is the way i keep up with what they are doing. howard doyle works with them, and can tell you more. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58125">
<answer instance="sci.med58125" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 imho, you have lyme disease. i sent you in private email a summary of the treatment protocols put forth by the lyme disease foundation. i respectfully suggest that you save yourself a great deal of suffering by contacting them for a lyme-knowledgeable physician referral and seek treatment at once. you'll know in 2 weeks if you're on the right course; and the clock is ticking on your 6 weeks if you have it. 1-800-886-lyme. if these folks are who i think they are, lyme-knowledgeable may mean a physician to whom everything that walks in the door is lyme disease, and you will be treated for lyme, whether or not you have it. hope you have good insurance. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58126">
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 3) is there any way around the scheduled drug mess so that he can use just the substance that works and not one adulterated with tylenol? can the md perscribe a year long supply on one script? his doctor basically refused to prescribe it, saying "his clinic does not prescribe controled substances. its is 'company' rule.!" short of changes by the feds, there is no way. codeine alone is very difficult to prescribe without a lot of hassles. tylenol #3 is the best compromise. that way he can get refills. the amount of acetominophen he is getting with his codeine won't hurt him any. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58127">
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 i read that hormonal fluctuations can contribute to migraines, could taking supplemental estrogen (ert) cause migraines? any information i'm not sure it is the fluctuation so much as the estrogen level. taking premarin can certainly cause migraines in some women. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58128">
<answer instance="sci.med58128" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have two questions. is there any obvious connection between the flushed appearance and the migraine? was i foolish to play through the migraine (aside from the visual disturbance affecting my play)? i just prefer to ignore it when possible. the flushing is due to vascular dilation, part of a migraine attack. some people event get puffy and swollen. as long as you are careful you can see well enough to avoid getting hit in the face or eye by the ball, migraine will not hurt your health. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58129">
<answer instance="sci.med58129" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 disclaimer: i speak only for myself. so just what was it you wanted to say? gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58132">
<answer instance="sci.med58132" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 could someone please tell me, what effect an overdose (900-1000mg) of amitriptyline would have? probably would not be fatal in an adult at that dose, but could kill a child. patient would be very somnolent, with dilated pupils, low blood pressure. possibly cardiac arrhythmias. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58133">
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 if you want to throw around names, drs. donald calne, terry elizan, and jesse cedarbaum don't recommend selegiline (not to mention dr. william landau). gosh, jesse is that famous now? he was my intern. landau not liking it makes me like it out of spite. (just kidding, bill). gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58135">
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 also, i'm not sure that physician fees at the very, very highest levels don't have to come down. (i'm not talking about the bulk of physicians making good but not great salaries who have mega-loans from medical school debts.) i'd also like to see some strong ethics with teeth for physicians i agree that some specialties have gotten way out of line. the main problem is the payment method for procedures rather than time distorts the system. i hope they will fix that. but i'm afraid, as usual, the local doc is going to take the brunt. people grouse about paying $50 to see their home doctor in his office, but don't mind paying $20,000 to have brain surgery. they think their local doc is cheating them but worship the feet of the neurosurgeon who saved their life. what they don't realize is that we need more local docs and fewer gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58136">
<answer instance="sci.med58136" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 any comments on the use of the drug parlodel for high prolactin in the blood? it can suppress secretion of prolactin. is useful in cases of galactorrhea. some adenomas of the pituitary secret too much. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58138">
<answer instance="sci.med58138" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 sometime in the future diet evangelists may get off their "our diet will work if only the obese would obey it" mode and do useful research to allow prediction of which types of diet might be useful to a given individual. "diet evangelist". good term. fits atkins to a "t". gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58139">
<answer instance="sci.med58139" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hmmmm... here's one place where i really think the patient ought to take more responsibility for him- or herself. there is absolutely no reason why you can't ask the pharmacist filling the prescription for the "physicians' package insert" for the medication when you pick it up at the pharmacy. make sure to tell the pharmacist that you want the "physicians' package insert" *not* the if people are going to do this, i really wish they would tell me first. i'd be happy to go over the insert (in the pdr) with them and explain everything. all too many patients read the insert and panic and then on the next visit sheepishly admit they were afraid to take the drug and we are starting over again at square one. some of them probably didn't even come back for followup because they didn't want to admit they wouldn't take the drug or thought i was trying to kill them or something. what people don't understand about the inserts is that they report every adverse side effect ever reported, without substantiating that the drug was responsible. the insert is a legal document to slough liability from the manufacturer to the physician if something was to happen. if patients want to have the most useful and reliable information on a drug they would be so much better off getting hold of one of the ama drug evaluation books or something similar that is much more scientific. there are very few drugs that someone hasn't reported a death from taking. patients don't realize that and don't usually appreciate the risks to themselves properly. i'm sure herman is going to "go ballistic", but so be it. another problem is that probably most drugs have been reported to cause impotence. half the males who read that will falsely assume it could permanently cause them to lose sexual function and so will refuse to take any drug like that. this can be a real problem for pdr readers. there needs to be some way of providing patients with tools geared to them that allow them to get the information they need. i am involved in a research project to do that, with migraine as the domain. it involves a computer system that will provide answers to questions about migraine as well as the therapy prescribed for the patient. for common illnesses, such as migraine and hypertension, this may help quite a bit. the patient could spend as much time as needed with the computer and this would then not burden the physician. clearly, physicians in large part fail to answer all the questions patients have, as is demonstrated over and over here on the net where we get asked things that the patients should have found out from their physician but didn't. why they didn't isn't always the physician's fault either. sometimes the patients are afraid to ask. they won't be as afraid to ask the system, we hope. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58143">
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 i will be traveling to bangaldesh this summer, and am wondering if there are any immunizations i should get before going. you can probably get this information by calling your public health department in your county (in pittsburgh, they give the shots free, as well). there are bulletins in medical libraries that give recommendations, or you could call the infectious diseases section of the medicine department of your local medical school. you also will probably want to talk about malaria prophylaxis. you will need your doctor to get the prescription. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58144">
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 i have an acquaintance who has been diagnosed as having blood clots and "compartment syndrome". i searched the latest edition of the columbia medical encyclopedia and found nothing. mosby's medical dictionary gives a very brief description which suggests it's an arterial condition. can someone point me (an compartment syndrome occurs when swelling happens in a "compartment" bounded by fascia. the pressure rises in the compartment and blood supply and nerves are compromised. the treatment is to open the compartment surgically. the most common places for compartment syndromes are the forearm and calf. it is an emergency, since if the pressure is not relieved, stuff will die. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58146">
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 |> |it's not an eyepiece. it is called a head mirror. all doctors never a speculum? the speculum is the little cone that fits on the end of the otoscope. there are also vaginal specula that females and gynecologists are all too familiar with. in fairness, we should note that if you look up "speculum" in the dictionary (which i did when this question first surfaced), the first definition is "a mirror or polished metal plate used as a reflector in optical instruments." which doesn't mean the name fits in this context, but it's not as far off as you might think. -- david wright, hitachi computer products (america), inc. waltham, ma wright@hicomb.hi.com :: these are my opinions, not necessarily hitachi's, though they are the opinions of all right-thinking people 
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<instance id="sci.med58147">
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 i attended high school in the san jose, california area in the early 1980's, and i remember a (smallish) outbreak of a strange illness, in which people developed measles-like spots on their bodies. this condition seemed to last only a few days, and i don't recall anyone reporting any other symptoms. i seem to recall reading somewhere that this was believed to have been viral in nature, but i don't know for sure. however, i have been curious since then about this. anyone have any ideas about what this might have been? 
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<instance id="sci.med58149">
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 on tue, 6 apr 1993 03:28:57 gmt, dyer@spdcc.com (steve dyer) said: |>i sometimes see otc preparations for muscle aches/back aches that |>combine aspirin with a diuretic. | you certainly do not see otc preparations advertised as such. | the only such ridiculous concoctions are nostrums for premenstrual | syndrome, ostensibly to treat headache and "bloating" simultaneously. | they're worthless. |>the idea seems to be to reduce |>inflammation by getting rid of fluid. does this actually work? | that's not the idea, and no, they don't work. i *believe* there is a known synergism between certain analgesics and caffiene. for treating pain, not inflammation. now that i am an ibuprofen convert i haven't taken it for some time, but excedrin really works! (grin) | steve dyer | dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer ......:bb|`:||, nathan@chemres.tn.cornell.edu ... .||: `||bbbbb .. ,:` .``"p$$$ .||. , . ` .`p$ 
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<instance id="sci.med58150">
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 explain. i thought there were 3 types of cones, equivalent to rgb. you're basically right, but i think there are just 2 types. one is sensitive to red and green, and the other is sensitive to blue and yellow. this is why the two most common kinds of color-blindness are red-green and blue-yellow. yes, i remember that now. well, in that case, the cones are indeed color sensitive, contrary to what the original respondent had claimed. i'm not sure who the "original respondent" was but to reiterate cones respond to particular portions of the spectrum, just as _rods_ respond to certain parts of the visible spectrum (bluegreen in our case, reddish in certain amphibia), just as the hoseshoe crab _limulus polyphemus_ photoreceptors respond to a certain portion of the spectrum etc. it is a common misconception to confound wavelength specificity with being color sensitive, however the two are not so in sum and to beat a dead horse: (1) when the outputs of a cone are matched for number of absorbed photons _irrespective_ of the absorbed photons wavelength, the cone outputs are _indistinguishable_. (2) cones are simply detectors with different spectral sensitivities and are not any more "color sensitive" than are rods, ommatidia or other photoreceptors. (3) color vision arises because outputs of receptors which sample different parts of the spectrum (cones in this case) are "processed centrally". (the handwave is intentional) i've worked and published research on rods and cones for over 10 years so the adherence to the belief that cones can "detect color" is frustrating. but don't take my word for it. i'm reposting a few excellent articles together with two rather good but oldish color vision texts. the texts: robert boynton (1979) _human color vision_ holt, rhiehart and winston leo m. hurvich (1981) _color vision_, sinauer associates. the original articles: baylor and hodgkin (1973) detection and resolution of visual stimuli by turtle phoreceptors, _j. physiol._ 234 pp163-198. baylor lamb and yau (1978) reponses of retinal rods to single photons. _j. physiol._ 288 pp613-634. schnapf et al. (1990) visual transduction in cones of the monkey _macaca fascicularis_. j. physiol. 427 pp681-713. edwin barkdoll barkdoll@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu eb3@world.std.com edwin barkdoll eb3@world.std.com 
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<instance id="sci.med58152">
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 the biggest reason why the cost of medical care is so extremely high and increasing is that natural methods of treatment and even diagnosis are still being systematically ignored and suppressed by the money-grubbing and power- mongering "medical" establishment. some examples of very low cost natural anti-cancer remedies are listed in the following article: natural anti-cancer remedies a 3rd opinion ( some of these remedies also work against aids. ) disclaimer: this list was compiled from unorthodox sources that have shown themselves to be reliable. the compiler of this list is not a doctor of any kind, but is exercising his first amendment constitutional right of free speech on the subjects of his choice. ( most of these remedies can be found in any grocery store. most of the rest of them can be found in any health food store. what is important is how they are used, and what else is excluded during their use. ) (1) the 7-day fast. 1st day: eat as much fresh fruit as you want, one kind at a time, preferably grapes. 2nd day: eat all the vegetables you want, at least half raw, including garlic; also, whole kernel corn to help scrape clean the intestinal linings. 3rd day: drink all the fresh fruit and vegetable juice you want. preferably start with 16 to 32 ounces of prune juice with pulp, followed by a gallon of pure (not from concentrate) apple juice, then grape juice. (stay close to your home bathroom.) 4th day: eat all the un-salted nuts (no peanuts) and dried fruit you want, preferably raisins and almonds (almonds contain laetrile.). 5th day: one gallon of lemonade. squeeze the juice from two lemons into a gallon of water (preferably distilled), and add 2 to 4 tablespoons of locally-made honey, (no sugar). drink one glass per hour. [everyone, including healthy people, should do this one day every week, preceded by a large glass of prune juice with pulp.] 6th day: same as 5th day. 7th day: same as 6th day. all 7 days, eat only the foods listed above for each day, along with your usual vitamin and mineral supplements, plus as much distilled water as you want. (2) the grape diet. eat 2 to 3 ounces of fresh grapes every 2 hours, 8 am to 8 pm, every day for six days. eat nothing else during the six days, but drink as much distilled water as you want. (3) apple cider vinegar. mix a teaspoon of pure apple cider vinegar (not apple cider "flavored" vinegar. regular vinegar is harmful.) in a glass of water (preferably distilled) and drink all of it. do this 3 or 4 times per day, for 3 weeks; then stop for a week. repeat if desired. do this along with a normal healthy diet of natural foods. this remedy is especially effective against those types of cancer that resemble a fungus, as well as against other kinds of fungus infections. (4) the sea-salt & soda bath. [please keep an open mind.] fill a bathtub with moderately warm water so the level comes up almost to the overflow drain when you get in. immerse yourself in it for a minute, and then completely dissolve in the bath water 1 pound of sun-evaporated sea-salt (regular salt won't work.) and 1 pound of fresh baking-soda. soak in this bath for 10 to 20 minutes, while exercising your fingers, toes, and limbs, turning sideways and onto your stomach, dunking your head, sitting up and laying back down, chomping your teeth together, etc.. among other things, the sea-salt & soda bath neutralizes the accumulated effects of x-rays, etc., as described in the book "born to be magnetic, vol. 2", by frances nixon, 1973. precautions: only the one person using each bath should prepare it and drain it. for at least 30 minutes after taking the bath, stay away from, and even out of sight of, other people. (your greatly expanded aura energy-field during that time could disrupt other people's fields.) two hours after the bath, eat at least 8 ounces of yogurt containing active yogurt cultures. (the bath may kill friendly bacteria also.) better yet, take a 2-billion-bacteria "acidophilus" capsule, which is also an excellent daily remedy against the effects of "a.i.d.s." (because it kills all kinds of harmful bacteria in the digestive tract, taking a big load off the remaining immune system). [because this external bath can kill in-ternal bacteria, it may also be a cure for "lyme disease".] do not take this bath within a few hundred miles of a thunder storm, within 3 days of a full moon, nor during "major" or "minor periods" as listed in the "solunar tables" published bimonthly in "field & stream" magazine, (because of the measurable disruptive ambient environmental energy-fields present at those times). do not take this bath more than four times per year. (5) miscellaneous natural anti-cancer remedies: for skin cancer, apply stabilized aloe vera jel to the affected skin twice daily, and take 2 to 4 tablespoons per day of stabilized aloe vera juice internally, for about 2 months. d.m.s.o. (dimethyl sulfoxide) causes cancer cells to perform normal cell functions. almonds (un-blanched, un-roasted) contain laetrile. to help prevent cancer, eat several almonds every day. to help cure cancer, eat several ounces of almonds per [never take large concentrated doses of laetrile orally. it will kill you! take it intravenously only. (cancer cells contain a certain enzyme which converts laetrile into cyanide, which then kills the cell. this enzyme is also present in the digestive system.)] anti-oxidants are free-radical scavengers, and include vitamin e, selenium (200 mcg. per day is safe for most people.), chromium (up to 100 mcg. per day), vitamin a (25,000 iu per day is safe for most people.), superoxide dismutase (up to 4,000,000 units per day), vitamin c (up to 3000 mg. per day), and bht (butylated hydroxy- toluene), [1 to 4 capsules of bht every night at bedtime will also make one immune against herpes (both types), suppress herpes symptoms if one already has herpes, prevent spreading herpes to other people, but will not cure herpes. bht might also do these things against "a.i.d.s.", which is really a form of cancer similar to leukemia.] (see the book "life extension", by durk pearson and sandy shaw.) hydrogen-peroxide. dilute twelve(12) drops of 3% hydrogen-peroxide in a glass of pure water (preferably distilled) and drink it. do this once or twice per day, hours before or after eating or drinking anything else. apply 3% hydrogen-peroxide directly to skin cancers several times per day. use hydrogen-peroxide only if you are taking a good daily dose of some of the various anti-oxidants described above. vitamin & mineral supplements are more effective, and much less expensive, when combined together in mega doses into single tablets made from natural sources. cancer cells can not live in a strong (100,000 maxwell) north magnetic field, especially if it is pulsating on and off. [a strong south magnetic field is an aphrodisiac.] in my opinion, all types of ionizing- radiation treatments for cancer should be replaced with daily 30-minute doses of pulsating 100,000-maxwell north magnetic fields. properly made and operated radionics/psionics machines can both diagnose and cure all forms of cancer, as well as most other medical problems. some radionics/psionics machines can even take cross-sectional x-ray-like photos of cancer tumors, etc., with-out x-rays! interferon tablets. taheebo tea, (lapacho). homeopathy can cure cancer, and many other medical problems (even drug addiction!). 50 mg. per day of chelated zinc can help prevent or cure prostate trouble. this list is not exhaustive. the above natural remedies can cure both diagnosed and un- diagnosed cancers, as well as prevent them, and also prevent and cure many other medical problems including heart- diseases. they are not too simple and inexpensive to work besides acting on a person biologically and chemically, these remedies, especially the 7-day fast and the grape diet, send a strong message to one's subconscious mind, programming it to cure the cancer. in my opinion, if a person finds out that s/he has cancer, then s/he should promptly try at least the first 4 remedies described above, in sequence (starting with the 7-day fast), before resorting to the un-natural and expensive mutilations and agonies [poison, burn, and mutilate!] of orthodox cancer treatment [organi$ed-crime!]. disclaimer: this list was compiled from unorthodox sources that have shown themselves to be reliable. the compiler of this list is not a doctor of any kind, but is exercising his first amendment constitutional right of free speech on the subjects of his choice. for more information, contact cancer control society, 2043 n. berendo st., los angeles, ca 90027, and/or other organiza- tions listed in the "alternative medicine" and "holistic medicine" portions of the "health and medical organizations" section (section 8) of the latest edition of the "encyclope- dia of associations" reference book in your local public or university library. un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine 
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 my biggest resentment is the doctor who makes it seem like most people with dizziness can be cured. that's definitely not the case. in most cases, like i said above, it is a long, tedious process that may or may not end up in a partial cure. be sure to say "chronic" dizziness, not just dizziness. most patients with acute or subacute dizziness will get better. the vertiginous spells of meniere's will also eventually go away, however, the patient is left with a deaf ear. all true. and all good points. to anyone suffering with vertigo, dizziness, or any variation thereof, my best advice to you (as a fellow-sufferer) is this... just keep searching...don't let the doctors tell you there's nothing that can be done...do your own research...and let your this may have helped you, but i'm not sure it is good general advice. the odds that you are going to find some miracle with your own research that is secret or hidden from general knowledge for this or any other disease are slim. when good answers to these then, spending a great deal of time and energy on the medical problem may divert that energy from more productive things in life. a limited amount should be spent to assure yourself that your doctor gave you the correct story, but after it becomes clear that you are dealing with a problem for which medicine has no good solution, perhaps the best strategy is to join the support group and keep abreast of new findings but not to make a career out of it. well, making a career out of it is a bit strong. i still believe that doing your own research is very, very necessary. i would not have progressed as much as i have today, unless i had spent the many hours in stanford's med library as i have done. and 5 years ago, it was clear that there was no medicine that would help me. so should i have stopped searching. thank goodness i didn't. now i found that there is indeed medicine that helps me. i think that what you've said is kind of idealistic. that you would go to one doctor, get a diagnosis, maybe get a second opinion, and then move on with your life. just as an example... having seen 6 of the top specialists in this field in the country, i have received 6 different diagnoses. these are the top names, the ones that people come to from all over the country. i have had to sort all of this out myself. going to a support group (and in fact, heading that support group) was helpful for a while, but after a point, i found it very unproductive. it was much more productive to do library research, make phone calls and put together the pieces of the puzzle myself. a recent movie, lorenzo's oil, offers a perfect example of what i'm talking about. if you haven't seen it, you should. it's not a put down of doctor's and neither is what i'm saying. doctors are only human and can only do so much. but there are those of us out here who are intelligent and able to sometimes find a missing piece of the puzzle that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. i guess i'm biased because dizziness is one of those weird things that is still so unknown. if i had a broken arm, or a weak heart, or failing kidneys, i might not have the same opinion. that's because those things are much more tangible and have much more concise definitions and treatments. with dizziness, you just have to decide to live with it or decide to live with it while trying to find your way out of it. i have chosen the latter. lindae@netcom.netcom.com gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 archive-name: typing-injury-faq/keyboards version: $revision: 5.11 $ $date: 1993/04/13 01:20:43 $ answers to frequently asked questions about keyboard alternatives the alternative keyboard faq copyright 1992,1993 by dan wallach <dwallach@cs.berkeley.edu> the opinions in here are my own, unless otherwise mentioned, and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor. [current distribution: sci.med.occupational, sci.med, comp.human-factors, {news,sci,comp}.answers, and e-mail to c+health@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, sorehand@vm.ucsf.edu, and cstg-l@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu] changes since previously distributed versions are marked with change || bars to the right of the text, as is this paragraph. || information in this faq has been pieced together from phone conversations, e-mail, and product literature. while i hope it's useful, the information in here is neither comprehensive nor error free. if you find something wrong or missing, please mail me, and i'll update my list. thanks. all phone numbers, unless otherwise mentioned, are u.s.a. phone numbers. all monetary figures, unless otherwise mentioned, are u.s.a. dollars. products covered in this faq: using a pc's keyboard on your workstation / compatibility issues apple computer, inc. key tronic flexpro dragon systems the bat comfort keyboard system kinesis ergonomic keyboard the tony! ergonomic keysystem the vertical the mikey the wave the minimal motion computer access system half-qwerty braille 'n speak gif pictures of many of these products are available via anonymous ftp from soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury. (128.32.149.19) i highly recommend getting the pictures. they tell much more than i can fit into this file. if you can't ftp, send me mail, and i'll uuencode and mail them to you (they're pretty big...) using a pc's keyboard on your workstation / compatibility issues mini outline: 1. spoofing a keyboard over the serial port 2. x terminals 3. next 4. silicon graphics 5. ibm rs/6000 6. other stuff 1. spoofing a keyboard over the serial port if you've got a proprietary computer which uses its own keyboard (sun, hp, dec, etc.) then you're going to have a hard time finding a vendor to sell you a compatible keyboard. if your workstation runs the x window system, you're in luck. you can buy a cheap used pc, hook your expensive keyboard up to it, and run a serial cable to your workstation. then, run a program on the workstation to read the serial port and generate fake x keyboard events. the two main programs i've found to do this are kt and a2x. a2x is a sophisticated program, capable of controlling the mouse, and even moving among widgets on the screen. it requires a server extension (xtest, dec-xtrap, or xtestextension1). to find out if your server can do this, run 'xdpyinfo' and see if any of these strings appear in the extensions list. if your server doesn't have this, you may want to investigate compiling x11r5, patchlevel 18 or later, or bugging your vendor. kt is a simpler program, which should work with unextended x servers. another program called xsendevent also exists, but i haven't seen it. both a2x and kt are available via anonymous ftp from soda.berkeley.edu. 2. x terminals also, a number of x terminals (ncd, tektronics, to name a few) use pc-compatible keyboards. if you have an x terminal, you may be all set. try it out with a normal pc keyboard before you go through the trouble of buying an alternative keyboard. also, some x terminals add extra buttons -- you may need to keep your original keyboard around for the once-in-a-blue-moon that you have to hit the setup key. 3. next next had announced that new next machines will use the apple desktop bus, meaning any mac keyboard will work. then, they announced they were cancelling their hardware production. if you want any kind of upgrade for an older next, do it now! 4. silicon graphics silicon graphics has announced that their newer machines (indigo^2 and beyond) will use standard pc-compatible keyboards and mice. i don't believe this also applies to the power series machines. it's not possible to upgrade an older sgi to use pc keyboards, except by upgrading the entire machine. contact your sgi sales rep for more 5. ibm rs/6000 ibm rs/6000 keyboards are actually similar to normal pc keyboards. || unfortunately, you can't just plug one in. you need two things: a || cable converter to go from the large pc keyboard connector to the || smaller ps/2 style din-6, and a new device driver for aix. believe || it or not, ibm wrote this device driver recently, i used it, and it || works. however, they don't want me to redistribute it. i've been || told judy hume (512) 823-6337 is a potential contact. if you learn || anything new, please send me e-mail. || 6. other stuff some vendors here (notably: health care keyboard co. and accucorp) support some odd keyboard types, and may be responsive to your queries regarding supporting your own weird computer. if you can get sufficient documention about how your keyboard works (either from the vendor, or with a storage oscilloscope), you may be in luck. contact the companies for more details. apple adjustable keyboard apple computer, inc. sales offices all over the place. availability: february, 1993 price: $219 supports: mac only apple has recently announced their new split-design keyboard. the keyboard has one section for each hand, and the sections rotate backward on a hinge. the sections do not tilt upward. the keys are arranged in a normal qwerty fashion. the main foldable keyboard resembles a normal apple keyboard. a separate keypad contains all the extended key functions. the keyboard also comes with matching wrist rests, which are not directly attachable to the keyboard. as soon as soda comes back up, i'll have a detailed blurb from tidbits available there. flexpro keyboard key tronic phone: 800-262-6006 possible contact: denise razzeto, 509-927-5299 sold by many clone vendors and pc shops availability: spring, 1993 (?) price: $489 (?) supports: pc only (highly likely) keytronic apparently showed a prototype keyboard at comdex. it's another split-design. one thumb-wheel controls the tilt of both the left and right-hand sides of the main alphanumeric section. the arrow keys and keypad resemble a normal 101-key pc keyboard. keytronic makes standard pc keyboards, also, so this product will probably be sold through their standard distribution channels. dragondictate-30k (and numerous other dragon products) dragon systems, inc. 320 nevada street newton, ma 02160 phone: 800-talk-typ or 617-965-5200 fax: 617-527-0372 shipping: now. price: dragondictate-30k -- $4995 (end user system) dragonwriter 1000 -- $1595 / $2495 (end user/developer system) various other prices for service contracts, site licenses, etc. compatibility: 386 (or higher) pc only (3rd party support for mac) free software support for x windows is also available -- your pc with dragon hardware talks to your workstation over a serial cable or network. the program is called a2x, and is available via anonymous ftp: soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury/a2x.tar.z export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/a2x.tar.z (most current) if you want to use your dragon product with x windows, you may want to ask for peter cohen, an salesman at dragon who knows more about this sort of thing. dragon systems sells a number of voice recognition products. most (if not all) of them seem to run on pc's and compatibles (including ps/2's and other microchannel boxes). they sell you a hardware board and software which sits in front of a number of popular word processors and spreadsheets. each user `trains' the system to their voice, and there are provisions to correct the system when it makes mistakes, on the fly. multiple people can use it, but you have to load a different personality file for each person. you still get the use of your normal keyboard, too. on the dragondictate-30k you need to pause 1/10th sec between words. dragon claims typical input speeds of 30-40 words per minute. i don't have specs on the dragonwriter 1000. the dragondictate-30k can recognize 30,000 words at a time. the dragonwriter 1000 can recognize (you guessed it) 1000 words at a time. dragon's technology is also part of the following products (about which i have no other info): microsoft windows sound system (voice pilot) ibm voicetype voice navigator ii (by articulate systems -- for macintosh) emstation (by lanier voice products -- "emergency medical workstation") the bat old phone number: 504-336-0033 current phone number: 504-766-8082 infogrip, inc. 812 north blvd. baton rouge, louisiana 70802, u.s.a. ward bond (main contact) david vicknair (did the unix software) 504-766-1029 shipping: now. supports: mac, ibm pc (serial port -- native keyboard port version coming very soon...). no other workstations supported, but serial support for unix with x windows has been written. pc and mac are getting all the real attention from the company. a chording system. one hand is sufficient to type everything. the second hand is for redundancy and increased speed. price: $495 (dual set -- each one is a complete keyboard by itself) $295 (single) (cheaper prices were offered at macworld expo as a show-special.) datahand 602-860-8584 industrial innovations, inc. 10789 north 90th street scottsdale, arizona 85260-6727, u.s.a. mark roggenbuck (contact) supports: pc and mac shipping: in beta. "big backlog" -- could take 3+ months. price: $2000/unit (1 unit == 2 pods). (new price!) || each hand has its own "pod". each of the four main fingers has five switches each: forward, back, left, right, and down. the thumbs have a number of switches. despite appearances, the key layout resembles qwerty, and is reported to be no big deal to adapt to. the idea is that your hands never have to move to use the keyboard. the whole pod tilts in its base, to act as a mouse. (see also: the detailed review, written by cliff lasser <cal@think.com> available via anonymous ftp from soda.berkeley.edu) comfort keyboard system 414-253-4131 fax: 414-253-4177 health care keyboard company n82 w15340 appleton ave menomonee falls, wisconsin 53051 u.s.a. jeffrey szmanda (vice president -- contact) shipping: now. supports: pc (and mac???) || planned future support: ibm 122-key layout (3270-style, i believe) sun sparc decision data unisys uts-40 silicon graphics others to be supported later. the hardware design is relatively easy for the company to re-configure. price: $690, including one system "personality module". || the idea is that one keyboard works with everything. you purchase "compatibility modules", a new cord, and possibly new keycaps, and then you can move your one keyboard around among different machines. it's a three-piece folding keyboard. the layout resembles the standard 101-key keyboard, except sliced into three sections. each section is on a "custom telescoping universal mount." each section independently adjusts to an infinite number of positions allowing each individual to type in a natural posture. you can rearrange the three sections, too (have the keypad in the middle if you want). each section is otherwise normal-shaped (i.e.: you put all three sections flat, and you have what looks like a normal 101-key keyboard). kinesis ergonomic keyboard 206-455-9220 206-455-9233 (fax) kinesis corporation 15245 pacific highway south, seattle, washington 98188, u.s.a. shirley lunde (vp marketing -- contact) shipping: now. supports: pc. mac and sun sparc in the works. price: $690. volume discounts available. the $690 includes one foot pedal, one set of adhesive wrist pads, and a typingtutor program. an additional foot pedal and other accessories are extra. the layout has a large blank space in the middle, even though the keyboard is about the size of a normal pc keyboard -- slightly smaller. each hand has its own set of keys, laid out to minimize finger travel. thumb buttons handle many major functions (enter, backspace, etc.). you can remap the keyboard in firmware (very nice when software won't allow the reconfig). foot pedals are also available, and can be mapped to any key on the keyboard (shift, control, whatever). maltron (+44) 081 398 3265 (united kingdom) p.c.d. maltron limited 15 orchard lane east molesey surrey kt8 obn pamela and stephen hobday (contacts) u.s. distributor: jim barrett applied learning corp. 1376 glen hardie road wayne, pa 19087 phone: 215-688-6866 supports: pc's, amstrad 1512/1640, bbc b, bbc master, mac apparently now also available price: 375 pounds $735 shipped in the u.s.a. (basically, converted price + shipping) the cost is less for bbc computers, and they have a number of accessories, including carrying cases, switch boxes to use both your normal keyboard and the maltron, an articulated arm that clamps on to your table, and training 'courses' to help you learn to type on your maltron. you can also rent a keyboard for 10 pounds/week + taxes. u.s. price: $120/month, and then $60 off purchase if you want it. shipping: now (in your choice of colors: black or grey) maltron has four main products -- a two-handed keyboard, two one-handed keyboards, and a keyboard designed for handicapped people to control with a mouth-stick. the layout allocates more buttons to the thumbs, and is curved to bring keys closer to the fingers. a separate keypad is in the middle. accucorp, inc. p.o. box 66 christiansburg, va 24073, u.s.a. 703-961-3576 (pete rosenquist -- sales) 703-961-2001 (larry langley -- president) shipping: now. supports: pc, mac, ibm 3270, sun sparc, and televideo 935 and 955. cost: $495 + shipping. doesn't use conventional push-keys. soft rubber keys, which rock forward and backward (each key has three states), make chords for typing keys. learning time is estimated to be 2-3 hours, for getting started, and maybe two weeks to get used to it. currently, the thumbs don't do anything, although a thumb-trackball is in the works. the company claims it takes about a week of work to support a new computer. they will be happy to adapt their keyboard to your computer, if possible. twiddler 516-474-4405, or 800-638-2352 141 mt. sinai ave. mt. sinai, ny 11766 chris george (president) shipping: now. price: $199. supports: pc only. mac and x windows in the works. the twiddler is both a keyboard and a mouse, and it fits in one hand. you type via finger chords. shift, control, etc. are thumb buttons. when in "mouse" mode, tilting the twiddler moves the mouse, and mouse buttons are on your fingers. the cabling leaves your normal keyboard available, also. most applications work, and windows works fine. desqview has trouble. geoworks also has trouble -- mouse works, keyboard doesn't. braille 'n speak 301-879-4944 blazie engineering 3660 mill green rd. street, md 21154, u.s.a. (information provided by doug martin <martin@nosc.mil>) the braille n speak uses any of several braille codes for entering information: grade i, grade ii, or computer braille. basically, letters a-j are combinations of dots 1, 2, 4, and 5. letters k-t are the same combinations as a-j with dot 3 added. letters u, v, x, y, and z are like a-e with dots 3 and 6 added. (w is unique because louis braille didn't have a w in the french alphabet.) the tony! ergonomic keysystem 415-969-8669 tony hodges the tony! corporation 2332 thompson court mountain view, ca 94043, u.s.a. supports: mac, pc, ibm 3270, sun, and dec. shipping: ??? price: $625 (you commit now, and then you're in line to buy the keyboard. when it ships, if it's cheaper, you pay the cheaper price. if it's more expensive, you still pay $625) the tony! should allow separate positioning of every key, to allow the keyboard to be personally customized. a thumb-operated mouse will also be available. the vertical contact: jeffrey spencer or stephen albert, 619-454-0000 p.o. box 2636 la jolla, ca 92038, u.s.a. supports: no info available, probably pc's available: summer, 1993 price: $249 the vertical keyboard is split in two halves, each pointing straight up. the user can adjust the width of the device, but not the tilt of each section. side-view mirrors are installed to allow users to see their fingers on the keys. the mikey 301-933-1111 dr. alan grant 3208 woodhollow drive chevy chase, maryland 20815, u.s.a. shipping: as of july, 1992: "should be available in one year." supports: pc, mac (maybe) price: $200 (estimated) the keyboard is at a fixed angle, and incorporates a built-in mouse operated by the thumbs. function keys are arranged in a circle at the keyboard's left. the wave (was: 213-) 310-644-6100 fax: 310-644-6068 iocomm international technology 12700 yukon avenue hawthorne, california 90250, u.s.a. robin hunter (contact -- in sales) cost: $99.95 + $15 for a set of cables supports: pc only. shipping: now. iocomm also manufactures "ordinary" 101-key keyboard (pc/at) and 84-key keyboard (pc/xt), so make sure you get the right one. the one-piece keyboard has a built-in wrist-rest. it looks *exactly* like a normal 101-key pc keyboard, with two inches of built-in wrist rest. the key switch feel is reported to be greatly improved. the minimal motion computer access system 508-263-6437 508-263-6537 (fax) equal access computer technology dr. michael weinreigh 39 oneida rd. acton, ma 01720, u.s.a. price: infogrip-compatible: "a few hundred dollars" + a one-handed bat for their own system: $300 (dos software) + "a few hundred dollars" shipping: these are custom-made, so an occupational therapist would make moulds/do whatever to make it for you. you can buy one now. supports: pc only, although the infogrip-compatible version might work with a mac. in a one-handed version, there is exactly one button per finger. in a two-handed version, you get four buttons per finger, and the thumbs don't do anything. you can also get one-handed versions with three thumb buttons -- compatible with the infogrip bat. basically, get it any way you want. they also have a software tutorial to help you learn the chording. works on a pc under dos, not windows. planning on macintosh and pc/windows support. no work has been done on a unix version, yet. half-qwerty (canada) 416-749-3124 the matias corporation 178 thistledown boulevard rexdale, ontario, canada m9v 1k1 e-mail: ematias@dgp.toronto.edu supports: mac and pc (but, not windows) demo for anonymous ftp: explorer.dgp.toronto.edu:/pub/half-qwerty || price: $129.95 (higher in canada, quantity discounts available) shipping: now. this thing is purely software. no hardware at all. the software will mirror the keyboard when you hold down the space bar, allowing you type one-handed. octima (israel) 972-4-5322844 fax: (+972) 3 5322970 ergoplic keyboards ltd. p.o. box 31 kiryat ono 55100, israel (info from mandy jaffe-katz <rxhfun@haifauvm.bitnet>) a one-handed keyboard. microwriter agenda (u.k.) (+44) 276 692 084 fax: (+44) 276 691 826 microwriter systems plc m.s.a. house 2 albany court albany park surrey gu15 2xa, united kingdom (info from carroll morgan <carroll.morgan@prg.oxford.ac.uk>) the agenda is a personal desktop assistant (pda) style machine. you can carry it along with you. it has chording input. you can also hook it up to your pc, or even program it. it costs just under 200 pounds, with 128k memory. thanks go to chris bekins <as.ccb@forsythe.stanford.edu> for providing the basis for this information. thanks to the numerous contributors: doug martin <martin@nosc.mil> carroll morgan <carroll.morgan@prg.oxford.ac.uk> mandy jaffe-katz <rxhfun@haifauvm.bitnet> wes hunter <wesley.hunter@atlantaga.ncr.com> paul schwartz <pschwrtz@cs.washington.edu> h.j. woltring <woltring@nici.kun.nl> dan sorenson <viking@iastate.edu> chris vanharen <vanharen@mit.edu> ravi pandya <ravi@xanadu.com> leonard h. tower jr. <tower@ai.mit.edu> dan jacobson <dan_jacobson@att.com> jim cheetham <jim@oasis.icl.co.uk> cliff lasser <cal@think.com> richard donkin <richardd@hoskyns.co.uk> paul rubin <phr@napa.telebit.com> david erb <erb@fullfeed.com> bob scheifler <rws@expo.lcs.mit.edu> chris grant <chris.grant@um.cc.umich.edu> scott mandell <sem1@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> and everybody else who i've probably managed to forget. the opinions in here are my own, unless otherwise mentioned, and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor. dan wallach "one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach@cs.berkeley.edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office#: 510-642-9585 of its cabinet." -- cm paris ref. manual, v6.0, p48. 
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 archive-name: typing-injury-faq/software version: 1.8, 7th december 1992 this faq is actually maintained by richard donkin <richardd@hoskyns.co.uk>. i post it, along with the other faq stuff. if you have questions, you want to send mail to richard, not me. -- dan software tools to help with rsi this file describes tools, primarily software, to help prevent or manage rsi. this version now includes information on such diverse tools as calendar programs and digital watches... please let me know if you know any other tools, or if you have information or opinions on these ones, and i will update this faq. i am especially interested in getting reviews of these products from people who have evaluated them or are using them. richard donkin internet mail: richardd@hoskyns.co.uk tel: +44 71 814 5708 (direct) fax: +44 71 251 2853 changes in this version: added information on stressfree, another typing management tool for windows. typing management tools: these aim to help you manage your keyboard use, by warning you to take a break every so often. the better ones also include advice on exercises, posture and workstation setup. some use sound hardware to warn of a break, others use beeps or screen messages. often, rsi appears only after many years of typing, and the pain has a delayed action in the short term too: frequently you can be typing all day with little problem and the pain gets worse in the evening. these tools act as an early warning system: by listening to their warnings and taking breaks with exercises, you don't have to wait for your body to give you a more serious and painful warning - that is, getting rsi. tool: at your service (commercial software) available from: bright star tel: +1 (206) 451 3697 platforms: mac (system 6.0.4), windows description: provides calendar, keyboard watch, email watch, and system info. warns when to take a break (configurable). has a few recommendations on posture, and exercises. sound-oriented, will probably work best with sound card (pc) or with microphone (mac). should be possible to record your own messages to warn of break. tool: audioport (sound card and software) available from: media vision tel: +1 (510) 226 2563 platforms: pc description: a sound card to plug into your pc parallel port. includes 'at your service'. tool: computer health break (commercial software) available from: escape ergonomics, inc 1111 w. el camino real suite 109 mailstop 403 sunnyvale, ca tel: +1 (408) 730 8410 platforms: dos description: aimed at preventing rsi, this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval, based on clock time, or after a set number of keystrokes -- whichever is earlier. it gives you 3 exercises to do each time, randomly selected from a set of 70. exercises are apparently tuned to the type of work you do - data entry, word processing, information processing. exercises are illustrated and include quite a lot of text on how to do the exercise and on what exactly the exercise does. chb includes hypertext information on rsi that you can use to learn more about rsi and how to prevent it. other information on non-rsi topics can be plugged into this hypertext viewer. a full glossary of medical terms and jargon is included. chb can be run in a dos box under windows, but does not then warn you when to take a break; it does not therefore appear useful when used with windows. cost: $79.95; quantity discounts, site licenses. comments: the keystroke-counting approach looks good: it seems better to measure the activity that is causing you problems than to measure clock time or even typing time. the marketing stuff is very good and includes some summaries of research papers, as well as lots of arguments you can use to get your company to pay up for rsi management tools. tool: eyercise (commercial software) available from: ran enterprises one woodland park dr. haverhill, ma 01830, us tel: 800-451-4487 (us only) platforms: windows (3.0/3.1), os/2 pm (1.3/2.0) [not dos] description: aimed at preventing rsi and eye strain, this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval (or at fixed times). optionally displays descriptions and pictures of exercises - pictures are animated and program beeps you to help you do exercises at the correct rate. includes 19 stretches and 4 visual training exercises, can configure which are included and how many repetitions you do - breaks last from 3 to 7 minutes. also includes online help on workplace ergonomics. quote from their literature: "eyercise is a windows program that breaks up your day with periodic sets of stretches and visual training exercises. the stretches work all parts of your body, relieving tension and helping to prevent repetitive strain injury. the visual training exercises will improve your peripheral vision and help to relieve eye strain. together these help you to become more relaxed and productive." "the package includes the book _computers & visual stress_ by edward c. godnig, o.d. and john s. hacunda, which describes the ergonomic setup for a computer workstation and provides procedures and exercises to promote healthy and efficient computer use. cost: $69.95 including shipping and handling, quantity discounts for resellers. free demo ($5 outside us). comments: i have a copy of this, and it works as advertised: i would say it is better for rsi prevention than rsi management, because it does not allow breaks at periods less than 30 minutes. also, it interrupts you based on clock time rather than typing time, which is not so helpful unless you use the keyboard all day. worked ok on windows 3.0 though it did occasionally crash with a uae - not sure why. also refused to work with the space bar on one pc, and has one window without window controls. very usable though, and does not require any sound hardware. tool: lifeguard (commercial software) available from: visionary software p.o. box 69447 portland, or 97201, us tel: +1 (503) 246-6200 platforms: mac, dos (windows version underway) description: aimed at preventing rsi. warns you to take a break with dialog box and sound. includes a list of exercises to do during breaks, and information on configuring your workstation in an ergonomic manner. price: $59; quantity discounts and site licenses. the dos product is bought in from another company, apparently; not sure how equivalent this is to the mac version. the mac version got a good review in desktop publisher magazine (feb 1991). good marketing stuff with useful 2-page summaries of rsi problems and solutions, with tool: stressfree (commercial software, free usable demo) available from: lifetime software p.o. box 87522 texas 77287-7522, us tel: 800-947-2178 (us only) fax: +1 (713) 474-2067 mail: 70412.727@compuserve.com demo (working program but reduced functions) available from: compuserve: windows advanced forum, new uploads section, or health and fitness forum, issues at work section. anon ftp: ftp.cica.indiana.edu (and mirroring sites) platforms: windows (3.0/3.1) (mac and dos versions underway) description: aimed at preventing rsi, this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval (or at fixed times). displays descriptions and pictures of exercises - pictures are animated and program paces you to help you do exercises at the correct rate. quite a few exercises, can configure which ones are included to some extent. online help. version 2.0 is out soon, mac and dos versions will be based on this. cost: $29.95 if support via compuserve or internet, otherwise $39.95. site license for 3 or more copies is $20.00 each. (note: prices may have gone up for v2.0). comments: i have had a play with this, and it works ok. its user interface design is much better in 2.0, though still a bit unusual. expensive tool around and it does the job. it is also the only tool with a redistributable demo, so if you do get the demo, post it on your local bulletin boards, ftp servers and bitnet servers! does not include general info on rsi and ergonomics, but it does have the ability to step backward in the exercise sequence, which is good for repeating the most helpful exercises. tool: typewatch (freeware), version 3.8 (october 1992) available from: email to richardd@hoskyns.co.uk anonymous ftp: soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury/typewatch.shar platforms: unix (tested on sco, sunos, mach; character and x window mode) description: this is a shell script that runs in the background and warns you to stop typing, based on how long you have been continuously typing. it does not provide exercises, but it does check that you really do take a break, and tells you when you can start typing again. typewatch now tells you how many minutes you have been typing today, each time it warns you, which is useful so you know how much you *really* type. it also logs information to a file that you can analyse or simply print out. the warning message appears on your screen (in character mode), in a pop-up window (for x windows), or as a zephyr message (for those with athena stuff). tim freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu> has put in a lot of bug fixes, extra features and support for x, zephyr and mach. not formally supported, but email richardd@hoskyns.co.uk (for sco, sunos, character mode) or tsf@cs.cmu.edu (for mach, x window mode, zephyr) if you have problems or want to give tool: various calendar / batch queue programs available from: various sources platforms: various description: any calendar/reminder program that warns you of an upcoming appointment can be turned into an ad hoc rsi management tool. or, any batch queue submission program that lets you submit a program to run at a specific time to display a message to the screen. using windows as an example: create a calendar file, and include this filename in your win.ini's 'load=' line so you get it on every startup of windows. suppose you want to have breaks every 30 minutes, starting from 9 am. press f7 (special time...) to enter an appointment, enter 9:30, hit enter, and type some text in saying what the break is for. then press f5 to set an alarm on this entry, and repeat for the next appointment. by using windows recorder, you can record the keystrokes that set up breaks throughout a day in a .rec file. put this file on your 'run=' line, as above, and you will then, with a single keypress, be able to set up your daily appointments with rsi exercises. the above method should be adaptable to most calendar programs. an example using batch jobs would be to submit a simple job that runs at 9:30 am and warns you to take a break; this will depend a lot on your operating system. while these approaches are not ideal, they are a good way of forcing yourself to take a break if you can't get hold of a suitable rsi management tool. if you are techie enough you might want to write a version of typewatch (see above) for your operating system, using batch jobs or whatever fits best. tool: digital watches with count-down timers available from: various sources, e.g. casio bp-100. description: many digital watches have timers that count down from a settable number of minutes; they usually reset easily to that number, either manually or automatically. while these are a very basic tool, they are very useful if you are writing, reading, driving, or doing anything away from a computer which can still cause or aggravate rsi. the great advantage is that they remind you to break from whatever you are doing. comments: my own experience was that cutting down a lot on my typing led to my writing a lot more, and still reading as much as ever, which actually aggravated the rsi in my right arm though the left arm improved. getting a count-down timer watch has been very useful on some occasions where i write a lot in a day. i have tried an old fashioned hour-glass type egg timer, but these are not much good because they do not give an audible warning of the end of the time period! keyboard remapping tools: these enable you to change your keyboard mapping so you can type one-handedly or with a different two-handed layout. one-handed typing tools may help, but be very careful about how you use them -- if you keep the same overall typing workload you are simply doubling your hand use for the hand that you use for typing, and may therefore make matters worse. tool: hsh (public domain) available from: anonymous ftp: soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury/hsh.shar platforms: unix (don't know which ones) description: allows one-handed typing and other general keyboard remappings. only works through tty's (so, you can use it with a terminal or an xterm, but not most x programs). tool: dvorak keyboard tools (various) available from: anonymous ftp: soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury/xdvorak.c also built into windows 3.x. description: the dvorak keyboard apparently uses a more rational layout that involves more balanced hand use. it *may* help prevent rsi a bit, but you can also use it if you have rsi, since it will slow down your typing a *lot* :-) dan wallach "one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach@cs.berkeley.edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office#: 510-642-9585 of its cabinet." -- cm paris ref. manual, v6.0, p48. 
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 ... or, to use a phrasing that i think is more accurate, science is the investigation of phenomena that avoids methods and reasoning that are known to be erroneous from past foul-ups. i can agree with this if you are talking about the less fundamental aspects of scientific method. ... ... in fact, i don't see the alternative, as i don't think that the fundamentals are capable of experimental investigation. in saying this i am agreeing with the work of people like kuhn (1970), feyerabend (1981) and lakatos (1972). while methodology cannot be subject to the same kind of "experimental investigation," as that to which it is applied, it *can* be critically appraised. methodologies can be compared to each other, sometimes by the conflicting results they produce. this kind of critical appraisal and comparison, together with the inappropriateness of existing methodologies for new fields of study, is what drives the evolution of methodologies and how we think about them. as usual, you are missing the whole point, russell, because you are not willing to even consider questionning your basic article of faith, which is that science is merely a matter of methodology and that the highest purpose of science is to avoid making mistakes. this is like saying that the most important aspect of business management is accurate bookkeeping. if science were no more than methodology and not making mistakes, it would be a poor thing indeed. what was the methodology of darwin? what was the methodology of einstein? what was, for that matter, the methodology of jenner and pasteur? none of the foregoing should be read as meaning that we should open the door to practitioners of quackery and psuedo-science. modern advocates of homeopathy, chiropracty, and traditional chinese medicine receive little respect because, for the most part, they use methods and reasoning that the kind of research lee lady recommends has shown to be terribly faulty. (this does *not* imply that all their treatments are ineffective. it *does* imply that those who rely on faulty methodology and reasoning are incapable of discovering *which* treatments are effective and which are not.) first of all, i think you are arguing against a straw man, because i don't think that anyone here is arguing that quackery, pseudo-science, homeopathy, chiropracty, and traditional chinese medicine should be accepted as science. i, in particular, think the basic ideas of homeopathy and chiropracty seem extremely flaky. what some of us do believe, however, is that some of these things (including some of the flaky ideas) are deserving of serious scientific if in fact it were true, as you have stated above, that those who do not use the currently fashionable methodology can have no idea what is effective and what is not, then science today would not exist. for all of current science is based on the past work of scientists whose methodology, by current standards, was seriously flawed. it is certainly true that as methodology improves, we need to re-examine those results derived in the past using less perfect methodologies. it is also true that the results obtained by people today who still rely on those early methodologies needs to be re-examined in a more rigorous fashion by those qualified to do so credibly. but to say that nobody who fails to do elaborate double-blind studies is capable of knowing their ass from a hole in the ground and to say that no ideas that come from outside the scientific establishment could possibly be worthy of serious investigation ... this truly marks one's attitude as doctrinaire, cultist. this attitude is not compatible with a belief in in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists, psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects. lady@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu lady@uhunix.bitnet 
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 archive-name: typing-injury-faq/general version: $revision: 4.28 $ $date: 1993/04/13 04:17:58 $ answers to frequently asked questions about typing injuries the typing injury faq -- sources of information for people with typing injuries, repetitive stress injuries, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc. copyright 1992,1993 by dan wallach <dwallach@cs.berkeley.edu> many faqs, including this one, are available on the archive site pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive-name line at the top of the article. this faq is archived as typing-injury-faq/general.z there's a mail server also. just e-mail mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu with the word 'help' on a line by itself in the body. the opinions in here are my own, unless otherwise mentioned, and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor. i'm not a medical doctor, so my advice should be taken with many grains of salt. [current distribution: sci.med.occupational, sci.med, comp.human-factors, {news,sci,comp}.answers, and e-mail to c+health@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, sorehand@vm.ucsf.edu, and cstg-l@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu] changes since previously distributed versions are marked with change || bars to the right of the text, as is this paragraph. || table of contents: ==1== mailing lists, newsgroups, etc. ==2== the soda.berkeley.edu archive ==3== general info on injuries ==4== typing posture, ergonomics, prevention, treatment ==5== requests for more info ==6== references ==1== mailing lists, newsgroups, etc. usenet news: comp.human-factors occasionally has discussion about alternative input devices. comp.risks has an occasional posting relevant to injuries via computers. sci.med and misc.handicap also tend to have relevant traffic. there's a brand new newsgroup, sci.med.occupational, chartered specifically to discuss these things. this would be the recommended place to post. mailing lists: the rsi network: available both on paper and via e-mail, this publication covers issues relevant to those with repetitive stress injuries. for a sample issue and subscription information, send a stamped, self- addressed business envelope to caroline rose, 970 paradise way, palo alto ca 94306. e-mail to <crose@applelink.apple.com> $2 donation, requested. all rsi network newsletters are available via anonymous ftp from soda.berkeley.edu (see below for details). c+health and sorehand are both ibm listserv things. for those familiar with listserv, here's the quick info: c+health -- subscribe to listserv@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu post to c+health@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu sorehand -- subscribe to listserv@vm.ucsf.edu post to sorehand@vm.ucsf.edu quick tutorial on subscribing to a listserv: % mail listserv@vm.ucsf.edu subscribe sorehand j. random hacker info ? that's all there is to it. you'll get bunches of mail back from the listserv, including a list of other possible commands you can mail. cool, huh? what'll those bitnet people think of, next? ==2== the soda.berkeley.edu archive i've started an archive site for info related to typing injuries. just anonymous ftp to soda.berkeley.edu:pub/typing-injury. (128.32.149.19) currently, you'll find: informative files: typing-injury-faq/ general -- information about typing injuries keyboards -- products to replace your keyboard software -- software to watch your keyboard usage changes -- changes since last month's edition (new!) || keyboard-commentary -- dan's opinions on the keyboard replacements amt.advice -- about adverse mechanical tension caringforwrists.sit.hqx -- pagemaker4 document about your wrists caringforwrists.ps -- postscript converted version of above... carpal.info -- info on carpal tunnel syndrome carpal.explained -- very detailed information about cts carpal.surgery -- jama article on cts surgery carpal.tidbits -- tidbits article on cts tendonitis.info -- info on tendonitis rsi.biblio -- bibliography of rsi-related publications rsi-network/* -- archive of the rsi network newsletter (currently, containing issues 1 through 11) || rsi.details -- long detailed information about rsi rsi.physical -- study showing rsi isn't just psychological various product literature: apple-press -- press release on the apple adjustable keyboard apple-tidbits -- extensive info about apple's adjustable keybd bat-info -- macweek review on the bat || comfort-* -- marketing info on the comfort keyboard datahand-review -- detailed opinions of the datahand datahand-review2 -- follow-up to above datahand-desc -- description of the datahand's appearance kinesis-review -- one user's personal opinions maltron-* -- marketing info on various maltron products maltron-review -- one user's personal opinions vertical-info -- marketing info on the vertical (new!) || programs: (with the exception of accpak.exe, everything here is distributed as source to be compiled with a unix system. some programs take advantage of the x window system, also.) hsh.shar -- a program for one-handed usage of normal keyboards typewatch.shar -- tells you when to take a break xdvorak.c -- turns your qwerty keyboard into dvorak xidle.shar -- keeps track of how long you've been typing rest-reminder.sh -- yet another idle watcher kt15.tar -- generates fake x keyboard events from the serial port -- use a pc keyboard on anything! (new improved version!) accpak.exe -- a serial port keyboard spoofer for ms windows (note: a2x.tar and rk.tar are both from export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/ so they may have a more current version than soda.) a2x.tar -- a more sophisticated x keyboard/mouse spoofing program. supports dragondictate. (note: a new version is now available) || rk.tar -- the reactive keyboard -- predicts what you'll type next -- saves typing pictures (in the gifs subdirectory): howtosit.gif -- picture of good sitting posture (the caringforwrists document is better for this) accukey1.gif -- fuzzy picture accukey2.gif -- fuzzy picture with somebody using it apple.gif -- the apple adjustable keyboard || bat.gif -- the infogrip bat comfort.gif -- the health care comfort keyboard datahand1.gif -- fuzzy picture datahand2.gif -- key layout schematic datahand3.gif -- a much better picture of the datahand flexpro.gif -- the key tronic flexpro keyboard || kinesis1.gif -- the kinesis ergonomic keyboard kinesis2.gif -- multiple views of the kinesis || maltron[1-4].gif -- several pictures of maltron products mikey1.gif -- the mikey mikey2.gif -- schematic picture of the mikey tony.gif -- the tony! ergonomic keysystem || twiddler1.gif -- "front" view twiddler2.gif -- "side" view vertical.gif -- the vertical keyboard || wave.gif -- the iocomm `wave' keyboard many files are compressed (have a .z ending). if you can't uncompress a file locally, soda will do it. just ask for the file, without the .z extension. if you're unable to ftp to soda, send me e-mail and we'll see what we can arrange. ==3== general info on injuries first, and foremost of importance: if you experience pain at all, then you absolutely need to go see a doctor. as soon as you possibly can. the difference of a day or two can mean the difference between a short recovery and a long, drawn-out ordeal. go see a doctor. now, your garden-variety doctor may not necessarily be familiar with this sort of injury. generally, any hospital with an occupational therapy clinic will offer specialists in these kinds of problems. don't wait, though. go see a doctor. the remainder of this information is paraphrased, without permission, from a wonderful report by new zealand's department of labour (occupational safety and health service): "occupational overuse syndrome. treatment and rehabilitation: a practitioner's guide". first, a glossary (or, fancy names for how you shouldn't have your hands): (note: you're likely to hear these terms from doctors and keyboard vendors :) rsi: repetitive strain injury - a general term for many kinds of injuries oos: occupational overuse syndrome -- synonym for rsi ctd: cumulative trauma disorder -- another synonym for rsi wruld: work-related upper limb disorders -- yet another synonym for rsi cts: carpal tunnel syndrome (see below) hyperextension: marked bending at a joint. pronation: turning the palm down. wrist extension: bending the wrist up. supination: turning the palm up. wrist flexion: bending the wrist down. pinch grip: the grip used for a pencil. ulnar deviation: bending the wrist towards the little finger. power grip: the grip used for a hammer. radial deviation: bending the wrist toward the thumb. abduction: moving away from the body. overspanning: opening the fingers out wide. now then, problems come in two main types: local conditions and diffuse conditions. local problems are what you'd expect: specific muscles, tendons, tendon sheaths, nerves, etc. being inflamed or otherwise hurt. diffuse conditions, often mistaken for local problems, can involve muscle discomfort, pain, burning and/or tingling; with identifiable areas of tenderness in muscles, although they're not necessarily "the problem." --- why does occupational overuse syndrome occur? here's the theory. normally, your muscles and tendons get blood through capillaries which pass among the muscle fibers. when you tense a muscle, you restrict the blood flow. by the time you're exerting 50% of your full power, you're completely restricting your blood flow. without fresh blood, your muscles use stored energy until they run out, then they switch to anaerobic (without oxygen) metabolism, which generates nasty by-products like lactic acid, which cause pain. once one muscle hurts, all its neighbors tense up, perhaps to relieve the load. this makes sense for your normal sort of injury, but it only makes things worse with repetitive motion. more tension means less blood flow, and the cycle continues. another by-product of the lack of blood flow is tingling and numbness from your nerves. they need blood too. anyway, when you're typing too much, you're never really giving a change for the blood to get back where it belongs, because your muscles never relax enough to let the blood through. stress, poor posture, and poor ergonomics, only make things worse. --- specific injuries you may have heard of: (note: most injuries come in two flavors: acute and chronic. acute injuries are severely painful and noticable. chronic conditions have less pronounced symptoms but are every bit as real.) tenosynovitis -- an inflamation of the tendon sheath. chronic tenosynovitis occurs when the repetitive activity is mild or intermittent: not enough to cause acute inflamation, but enough to exceed the tendon sheath's ability to lubricate the tendon. as a result, the tendon sheath thickens, gets inflamed, and you've got your problem. tendonitis -- an inflammation of a tendon. repeated tensing of a tendon can cause inflamation. eventually, the fibers of the tendon start separating, and can even break, leaving behind debris which induces more friction, more swelling, and more pain. "sub-acute" tendonitis is more common, which entails a dull ache over the wrist and forearm, some tenderness, and it gets worse with repetitive activity. carpal tunnel syndrome -- the nerves that run through your wrist into your fingers get trapped by the inflamed muscles around them. symptoms include feeling "pins and needles", tingling, numbness, and even loss of sensation. cts is often confused for a diffuse condition. adverse mechanical tension -- also known as 'neural tension', this is where the nerves running down to your arm have become contracted and possibly compressed as a result of muscle spasms in the shoulders and elsewhere. amt can often misdiagnosed as or associated with one of the other oos disorders. it is largely reversible and can be treated with physiotherapy (brachial plexus stretches and trigger point therapy). others: for just about every part of your body, there's a fancy name for a way to injure it. by now, you should be getting an idea of how oos conditions occur and why. just be careful: many inexperienced doctors misdiagnose problems as carpal tunnel syndrome, when in reality, you may have a completely different problem. always get a second opinion before somebody does something drastic to you (like surgery). ==4== typing posture, ergonomics, prevention, treatment the most important element of both prevention and recovery is to reduce tension in the muscles and tendons. this requires learning how to relax. if you're under a load of stress, this is doubly important. tune out the world and breath deep and regular. relaxing should become a guiding principle in your work: every three minutes take a three second break. every three minutes, take a three second break. really, do it every three minutes. it's also helpful to work in comfortable surroundings, calm down, and relax. if you can't sleep, you really need to focus on this. rest, sleep, and relaxation are really a big deal. there are all kinds of other treatments, of course. drugs can reduce inflamation and pain. custom-molded splints can forcefully prevent bad posture. surgery can fix some problems. exercise can help strengthen your muscles. regular stretching can help prevent injury. good posture and a good ergonomic workspace promote reduced tension. ice or hot-cold contrast baths also reduce swelling. only your doctor can say what's best for you. --- posture -- here are some basic guidelines. [i so liked the way this was written in the new zealand book that i'm lifting it almost verbatim from appendix 10. -- dwallach] . let your shoulders relax. . let your elbows swing free. . keep your wrists straight. . pull your chin in to look down - don't flop your head forward. . keep the hollow in the base of your spine. . try leaning back in the chair. . don't slouch or slump forward. . alter your posture from time to time. . every 20 minutes, get up and bend your spine backward. set the seat height, first. your feet should be flat on the floor. there should be no undue pressure on the underside of your thighs near the knees, and your thighs should not slope too much. now, draw yourself up to your desk and see that its height is comfortable to work at. if you are short, this may be impossible. the beest remedy is to raise the seat height and prevent your legs from dangling by using a now, adjust the backrest height so that your buttocks fit into the space between the backrest and the seat pan. the backrest should support you in the hollow of your back, so adjust its tilt to give firm support in this if you operate a keyboard, you will be able to spend more time leaning back, so experiment with a chair with a taller backrest, if available. [now, i diverge a little from the text] a good chair makes a big difference. if you don't like your chair, go find a better one. you really want adjustments for height, back angle, back height, and maybe even seat tilt. most arm rests seem to get in the way, although some more expensive chairs have height adjustable arm rests which you can also rotate out of the way. you should find a good store and play with all these chairs -- pick one that's right for you. in the san francisco bay area, i highly recommend "just chairs." the name says it all. --- keyboard drawers, wrist pads, and keyboard replacements: there is a fair amount of controvery on how to get this right. for some people, wrist pads seem to work wonders. however, with good posture, you shouldn't be resting your wrists on anything -- you would prefer your keyboard to be "right there". if you drop your arms at your side and then lift your hands up at the elbow, you want your keyboard under your hands when your elbows are at about 90 degrees. of course, you want to avoid pronation, wrist extension, and ulnar deviation at all costs. wrist pads may or may not help at this. you should get somebody else to come and look at how you work: how you sit, how you type, and how you relax. it's often easier for somebody else to notice your hunched shoulders or deviated hands. some argue that the normal, flat keyboard is antiquated and poorly designed. a number of replacements are available, on the market, today. check out the accompanying typing-injury-faq/keyboards for much detail. ==5== requests for more info clearly, the above information is incomplete. the typing-injury archive is incomplete. there's always more information out there. if you'd like to submit something, please send me mail, and i'll gladly throw it in. if you'd like to maintain a list of products or vendors, that would be wonderful! i'd love somebody to make a list of chair/desk vendors. i'd love somebody to make a list of doctors. i'd love somebody to edit the above sections, looking for places where i've obviously goofed. ==6== references i completely rewrote the information section here, using a wonderful guide produced in new zealand by their occupational safety & health service, a service of their department of labour. special thanks to the authors: wigley, turner, blake, darby, mcinnes, and harding. semi-bibliographic reference: . occupational overuse syndrome . treatment and rehabilitation: a practitioner's guide published by the occupational safety and health service department of labour new zealand. first edition: june 1992 isbn 0-477-3499-3 price: $9.95 (new zealand $'s, of course) thanks to richard donkin <richardd@hoskyns.co.uk> for reviewing this posting. dan wallach "one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach@cs.berkeley.edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office#: 510-642-9585 of its cabinet." -- cm paris ref. manual, v6.0, p48. 
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 chinese, and many other asians (japanese, koreans, etc) have used msg as flavor enhancer for two thousand years. do you believe that they knew how to make msg from chemical processes? not. they just extracted it from natural food such sea food and meat broth. and to add further fuel to the flame war, i read about 20 years ago that the "natural" msg - extracted from the sources you mention above - does not cause the reported aftereffects; it's only that nasty "artificial" msg - extracted from coal tar or whatever - that causes chinese restaurant syndrome. i find this pretty hard to believe; has anyone else heard it? 
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<instance id="sci.med58765">
<answer instance="sci.med58765" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 see the ulterior motive here. it is easy for me to see it the those physicians who call everything lyme and treat everything. there is a lot of money involved. you keep bringing this up. but i don't understand what's in it financially for the physician to go ahead and treat. unless the physician has an investment in (or is involved in some kickback scheme with) the home infusion company, where is the financial gain for the doctor? well, let me put it this way, based on my own experience. a general practitioner with no training in infectious diseases, by establishing links to the "lyme community", treating patients who come to him wondering about lyme or having decided they have lyme as if they did, saying that diseases such as ms are probably spirochetal, if not lyme, giving talks at meetings of users groups, validating the feelings of even delusional patients, etc. this gp can go from being a run-of-the-mill $100k/yr gp to someone with lots of patients in the hospital and getting expensive infusions that need monitoring in his office, and making lots of bread. also getting the adulation of many who believe his is their only hope (if not of cure, then of control) and seeing his name in publications put out by support groups, etc. this is a definite temptation. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58769">
<answer instance="sci.med58769" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia? 
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<instance id="sci.med58770">
<answer instance="sci.med58770" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 if the nose culture shows staph, then ceftin or even ceclor are better. suprax does not kill staph. treating bacterial infections involves a lot of try-and-fail because the infections often involve multiple organisms with many resistant strains. some 60% of hemophilus influenza strains are now resistant. what works for me and my organisms may not work for you and yours. keep experimenting. ken colby 
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<instance id="sci.med58772">
<answer instance="sci.med58772" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 gordon banks: a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity. i think all of us cycle. one's success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are. some people can cycle only 5 pounds. unfortunately, i'm not one of them. this certainly describes my situation perfectly. for me there is a constant dynamic between my tendency to eat, which appears to be totally limitless, and the purely conscious desire to not put on too much weight. when i get too fat, i just diet/exercise more (with varying degrees of success) to take off the extra weight. usually i cycle within a 15 lb range, but smaller and larger cycles occur as well. i'm always afraid that this method will stop working someday, but usually i seem to be able to hold the weight gain in check. this is one reason i have a hard time accepting the notion of some metabolic derangement associated with cycle dieting (that results in long-term weight gain). i have been cycle- dieting for at least 20 years without seeing such a change. i think a vigorous exercise program can go a long way toward keeping the cycles smaller and the baseline weight low. 
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<instance id="sci.med58773">
<answer instance="sci.med58773" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 probably within 50 years, a new type of eugenics will be possible. maybe even sooner. we are now mapping the human genome. we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome. using genetic engineering, we will be able to insert whatever genes we want. no breeding, no "hybrids", etc. the ethical question is, should we do this? should we make a race of disease-free, long-lived, arnold schwartzenegger-muscled, supermen? even if we can. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58774">
<answer instance="sci.med58774" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 accepted by whom? not by scientists. there are people in every country who waste time and money on quackery. in britain and scandanavia, where i have worked, it was not paid for. what are "most of these countries?" i don't believe you. i am told (by the person who i care a lot about and who i am worried is going to start putting his health and money into homeopathy without really knowing what he is getting into and who is the reason i posted in the first place about homeopathy) that in britain homeopathy is available on the national health service and that there are about 6000 gps who use homeopathic practices. true? false? what? have there been any important and documented investigations into homeopathic principles? i was reading a book on homeopathy over the weekend. i turned to the section on the principles behind homeopathic medicine, and two paragraphs informed me that homeopaths don't feel obliged to provide any sort of explanation. the author stated this with pride, as though it were some sort of virtue! why am i sceptical about homeopathy? is it because i am a narrow-minded bigot, or is it because homeopathy really looks more like witch-doctory than anything else? 
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<instance id="sci.med58776">
<answer instance="sci.med58776" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> > what about kekule's infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings |> > from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails? is this |> > specific enough to count? certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic |> > phil. of sci. texts as an example of the inventive component of |> > hypothesizing. |> i think the question is: what is extra-scientific about this? |> it has been a long time since anyone has proposed restrictions on |> where one comes up with ideas in order for them to be considered |> legitimate hypotheses. the point, in short, is this: hypotheses and |> speculation in science may come from wild flights of fancy, |> daydreams, ancient traditions, modern quackery, or anywhere else. |> russell yes, but typically they *don't*. not every wild flight of fancy serves (or can serve) in the appropriate relation to a hypothesis. it is somewhat interesting that when anyone is challanged to provide an example of this sort the *only* one they come up with is the one about kekule. surely, there must be others. but apparently this is regarded as an *extreme* example of a "non-rational" process in science whereby a successful hypothesis was proposed. but how non-rational is it? of course we can't hope (currently at least) to explain how or why kekule had the daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails. surely it wasn't the *only* daydream he had. what was special about *this* one? could it have had something to do with a perceived *analogy* between the geometry of the snakes and problems concerning geometry of molecules? is such analogical reasoning "extra-scientific"? or is it rather at the very heart of science (perice's notion of abduction, the use of models within and across disciplines)? upon close examination, is there a non-rational mystical leap taking place, or is it perhaps closer to a formal (though often incomplete) analogy or model? gary h. merrill [principal systems developer, c compiler development] sas institute inc. / sas campus dr. / cary, nc 27513 / (919) 677-8000 sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm 
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<instance id="sci.med58777">
<answer instance="sci.med58777" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 thanks for all your assistance. i'll see if he can try a different brand of patches, although he's tried two brands already. are there more than two? mmatusev@radford.vak12ed.edu "after a time you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. it is not logical, but it is often true." spock to stonn 
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<instance id="sci.med58781">
<answer instance="sci.med58781" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> >>is there such a thing as msg (monosodium glutamate) sensitivity? |> >>i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before |> >>an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are |> >>superstition. anybody here have experience to the contrary? |> >>i'm old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least |> >>a couple of times since the 1960s. then it was called the |> >>"chinese restaurant syndrome" because chinese cuisine has |> >>always used it. |> so far, i've seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence, but |> no facts. i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at |> work here. does anyone have results from a scientific study |> using double-blind trials? here is another anecdotal story. i am a picky eater and never wanted to try chinese food, however, i finally tried some in order to please a girl i was seeing at the time. i had never heard of chinese restaurant syndrome. a group of us went to the restaurant and all shared 6 different dishes. it didn't taste great, but i decided it wasn't so bad. we went home and went to bed early. i woke up at 2 am and puked my guts outs. i threw up for so long that (i'm not kidding) i pulled a muscle in my tongue. dry heaves and everything. no one else got sick, and i'm not allergic to anything that i know of. suffice to say that i wont go into a chinese restaurant unless i am physically threatened. the smell of the food makes me ill (and that *is* a psycholgical reaction). when i have been dragged in to suffer through beef and broccoli without any sauces, i insist on no msg. i haven't gotten sick yet. doug bank private systems division dougb@ecs.comm.mot.com motorola communications sector dougb@nwu.edu schaumburg, illinois dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 708-576-8207 
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<instance id="sci.med58783">
<answer instance="sci.med58783" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> ok, just for grins: |> - kekule hypothesized a resonant structure for the aromatic benzene |> ring after waking from a dream in which a snake was swallowing his tail. |> - archimedes formalized the principle of buoyancy while meditating in |> his bath. well, certainly in archimedes case the description "while observing the phenomena in his bath" seems more accurate than "while meditating in his bath" -- it was, after all, a rather buoyancy intense environment. gary h. merrill [principal systems developer, c compiler development] sas institute inc. / sas campus dr. / cary, nc 27513 / (919) 677-8000 sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm 
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<instance id="sci.med58784">
<answer instance="sci.med58784" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 |> i woke up at 2 am and puked my guts outs. |> i threw up for so long that (i'm not kidding) i pulled a muscle in |> my tongue. dry heaves and everything. no one else got sick, and i'm |> not allergic to anything that i know of. the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly. some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face. some claim their heart "skipped" beats once in a while. some reacted with headache, some stomach ache. some had watery eyes or running nose, some had itchy skin or rashes. more serious accusations include respiration difficulty and brain damage. now here is a new one: vomiting. my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem. in this case. it might be just food poisoning. but if you heard things about msg, you may think it must be it. jason chen 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58785">
<answer instance="sci.med58785" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 |> here is another anecdotal story. i am a picky eater and never wanted to |> try chinese food, however, i finally tried some in order to please a |> girl i was seeing at the time. i had never heard of chinese restaurant |> syndrome. a group of us went to the restaurant and all shared 6 different |> dishes. it didn't taste great, but i decided it wasn't so bad. we went |> home and went to bed early. i woke up at 2 am and puked my guts outs. |> i threw up for so long that (i'm not kidding) i pulled a muscle in |> my tongue. dry heaves and everything. no one else got sick, and i'm |> not allergic to anything that i know of. |> suffice to say that i wont go into a chinese restaurant unless i am |> physically threatened. the smell of the food makes me ill (and that *is* |> a psycholgical reaction). when i have been dragged in to suffer |> through beef and broccoli without any sauces, i insist on no msg. |> i haven't gotten sick yet. i had a similar reaction to chinese food but came to a completly different conclusion. i've eaten chinese food for ages and never had problems. i went with some chinese malaysian friends to a swanky chinses rest. and they ordered lots of stuff i had never seen before. the only thing i can remember of that meal was the first course, scallops served in the shell with a soy-type sauce. i thought, "well, i've only had scallops once and i was sick after but that could have been a coincidence". that night as i sat on the bathroom floor, sweating and emptying my stomach the hard way, i decided i would never touch another scallop. i may not be allergic but i don't want to take the chance. amy mossman 
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<instance id="sci.med58791">
<answer instance="sci.med58791" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 .. not every wild flight of fancy serves (or can serve) in the appropriate relation to a hypothesis. it is somewhat interesting that when anyone is challanged to provide an example of this sort the *only* one they come up with is the one about kekule. surely, there must be others. but apparently this is regarded as an *extreme* example of a "non-rational" process in science whereby a successful hypothesis was proposed. but how non-rational is it? indeed, an extreme example. it came "out of nowhere." the connection kekule saw between it and his problem is fortunate but not extraordinary. i, for example, often receive/conjure solutions (hypotheses for solutions) to my everyday problems at moments when i appear to myself to be occupied with activities quite removed. algorithms for that new software feature come when i trample the meadow on my occasional runs. alternative (better>) ways to instruct and rear my sons arrive while i weed the garden. i'll swear i am not thinking about any of it when ideas come. these ideas are not the stuff of "great" discoveries, of course, but my connecting them to particular problems is fraught with deliberation and occasional fits of rationality. surely it wasn't the *only* daydream [kekule] had. what was special about *this* one? could it have had something to do with a perceived *analogy* between the geometry of the snakes and problems concerning geometry of molecules? yes. and he was lucky to have such a colorful, vivid image. i, alas, will never figure out why returning worms to the loose soil of my garden brought, "have him count objects instead of merely count" to mind regarding my 2 year-old's fledging arithmetic skills. ... upon close examination, is there a non-rational mystical leap taking place, or is it perhaps closer to a formal (though often incomplete) analogy or model? the latter. worms wiggling around in the dirt fascinate my son. ted lehr | "...my thoughts, opinions and questions..." future systems technology group, aws | ibm | internet: lehr@futserv.austin.ibm.com austin, tx 78758 | 
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<instance id="sci.med58792">
<answer instance="sci.med58792" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 avoiding mistakes is certainly highly desirable. however it is also widely acknowledged that perfectionism is inimicable to creativity. and in ordinary life, perfectionism carried beyond a certain point is indicative of a psychological disorder. in the extreme case, a perfectionist becomes so paralyzed by all the possible mistakes he might make that he is unable to even leave the house. in science, we want to discover as much truth about the world as possible and we also want to have as much certainty as possible about these discoveries. usually there is some trade-off between these two desiderata --- the search for scope and the search for certainty. if 18th century mathematicians had demanded total rigor from newton and leibniz then there would probably be no calculus today, because neither of the two could explain calculus in a way that really made sense, since they lacked the concept of a limit. and in fact, because of the lack of a rigorous foundation, they made a number of errors in their use of calculus. it was only a hundred years later that weistrass was able to give a solid grounding for the ideas of newton and leibniz. nonetheless, what newton and leibniz did was undoubtedly science and mathematics gained a great deal more from the application of their important ideas than it lost through the mistakes they made. [ somebody writes: ] i doubt if einstein used any formal methodology. .... he also proposed numerous experiments which if performed would distinguish a universe in which special relativity holds from one in which it does not. einstein played by the rules, which demand that hypotheses only be put out there if there exists a specific experiment that could disprove them. these are not the rules according to many who post to sci.med and sci.psychology. according to these posters "if it's not supported by carefully designed controlled studies then it's not science." taken to the extreme, i believe that the attitude that empirical studies are everything and ideas are nothing results in a complete stultification of science. for one thing, an insistence on an elaborate and expensive methodology results in a sort of scientific trade-unionism, where those outside the establishment and lacking institutional or corporate support have no chance to obtain a hearing. (i don't in the least believe that this is the intention of the arbiters of scientific methodology. nonetheless, it is one of the results.) and although institutional science has certainly produced many wonderful results, i think it is a foolish arrogance for scientists to believe that no one outside the establishment --- and using less than perfect empirical methodology --- will ever come with anything worthwhile. furthermore, the big bucks approach to science promotes what i think is one of the most significant errors in science: choosing to investigate questions because they can be readily handled by the currently fashionable methodology (or because one can readily get institutional or corporate sponsorship for them) instead of directing attention to those questions which seem to have fundamental significance. for instance, certain questions cannot be easily investigated with statistical methods because the relevant factors are not quantitative. (one could argue that this is the case for almost all questions in many areas of psychology. in my opinion, a perusal of many of the papers resulting from the attempt by psychologists to force these questions into a statistical framework gives the lie to russell turpin's assertion that current scientific methods "avoid all known errors.") i think that asking the wrong question is probably the most fundamental error in science. (ignoring potentially valuable ideas is one of the others.) and i think that scientific journals are full of all too many studies done with impeccable empirical methods but which are worthless because the wrong question was asked in the first place. in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists, psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects. lady@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu lady@uhunix.bitnet 
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<instance id="sci.med58793">
<answer instance="sci.med58793" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ... the other day i played tennis during my lunch hour. i'm out of tennis shape so it was very intense exercise. i got overheated, and dehydrated. afterwards, i noticed a tingling sensation all over my head then about 2 hours later, i could feel a migraine start. (i continued to drink water in the afternoon.) i took cafergot, but it didn't help and the pain started although it wasn't as intense as it usually is and about 9pm that night, the pain subsided. this isn't the first time that i've had a migraine occur after exercise. i'm wondering if anyone else has had the same experience and i wonder what triggers the migraine in this situation (heat buildup? dehydration?). i'm not giving up tennis so is there anything i can do (besides get into shape and don't play at high noon) to prevent this? hi janet, sounds exactly like mine. same circumstance, same onset symptoms, same cafergot uselessness, same duration. in fact, of all the people i know who have migraines, none have been so similar. there is such a wide variation between people with respect to what causes their headaches, that i generally don't bother sharing what i've learned about mine, but since ours seem to be alike, here are my observations. i don't think it's heat, per se (i've had more in winter than summer). dehydration could conceivably figure, though. try tanking up before playing rather than after. being in shape doesn't seem to help me much, either. i've identified four factors that do make a difference (listed in descending order of importance): 1) heavy exercise 2) sleep deprivation 3) fasting (e.g., skipped breakfast) 4) physical trauma (e.g., head bonk) heavy exercise has preceded all of my post-adolescent migraines, but i don't get migraines after every heavy exercise session. one or more of the other factors *must* be present (usually #2). since i discovered this, i've been nearly migraine-free -- relapsing only once every two or three years when i get cocky ("it's been so long, maybe i just don't get them anymore") and stop being careful. hope this is helpful. 
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<instance id="sci.med58795">
<answer instance="sci.med58795" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 :thanks for all your assistance. i'll see if he can try a :different brand of patches, although he's tried two brands :already. are there more than two? the brands i can come up with off the top of my head are nicotrol, nicoderm and habitrol. there may be a fourth as well. = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58797">
<answer instance="sci.med58797" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia? it depends on the cause of the pneumonia. for treating bacterial pneumonia in young otherwise-healthy non-smokers, erythromycin is usually considered the antibiotic of choice, since it covers the two most-common pathogens: strep pneumoniae and mycoplasma david rind rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med58798">
<answer instance="sci.med58798" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> i woke up at 2 am and puked my guts outs. |> i threw up for so long that (i'm not kidding) i pulled a muscle in |> my tongue. dry heaves and everything. no one else got sick, and i'm |> not allergic to anything that i know of. the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly. some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face. some claim their heart "skipped" beats once in a while. some reacted with headache, some stomach ache. some had watery eyes or running nose, some had itchy skin or rashes. more serious accusations include respiration difficulty and brain damage. now here is a new one: vomiting. my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem. in this case. it might be just food poisoning. but if you heard things about msg, you may think it must be it. surprise surprise, different people react differently to different things. one slightly off the subject case in point. my brother got stung by a bee. i know he is allergic to bee stings, but that his reaction is severe localized swelling, not anaphylactic shock. i could not convince the doctors of that, however, because that's not written in their little rule book. i would not be surprised in the least to find out the some people have bad reactions to msg, including headaches, stomachaches and even vomiting. not that the stuff is bad or poison and needs to be banned, but people need to be aware that it can have a bad effect on some people. lone wolf happy are they who dream dreams, ed philips and pay the price to see them come true. slyx0@cc.usu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58800">
<answer instance="sci.med58800" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 what about kekule's infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails? is this specific enough to count? certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic phil. of sci. texts as an example of the inventive component of i sometimes wonder if kekule's dream wasn't just a wee bit influenced by aromatic solvent vapors ;-) heh heh. neal howard '91 xlh-1200 dod #686 computrac, inc (richardson, tx) doh #0000001200 |355o33| neal@cmptrc.lonestar.org std disclaimer: my opinions are mine, not computrac's. "let us learn to dream, gentlemen, and then perhaps we shall learn the truth." -- august kekule' (1890) 
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<instance id="sci.med58801">
<answer instance="sci.med58801" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have a back machine and have had one since january. while i have not found it to be a panacea for my back pain, i think it has helped somewhat. it mainly acts to stretch muscles in the back and prevent spasms associated with pain. i am taking less pain medication than i was previously. the folks at back technologies are very reluctant to honor their return policy. they extended my "warranty" period rather than allow me to return the machine when, after the first month or so, i was not thrilled with it. they encouraged me to continue to use it, abeit less vigourously. like i said, i can't say it is a cure-all, but it keeps me stretched out and i am in less pain. dale m. webb, dvm, phd * 97% of the body is water. the veterinary diagnostic center * other 3% keeps you from drowning. university of nebraska, lincoln * 
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<instance id="sci.med58802">
<answer instance="sci.med58802" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : could somebody explain to me what a centrifuge is and what it is : used for? i vaguely remembre it being something that spins test tubes : around really fast but i cant remember why youd want to do that? purely recreational. they get bored sitting in that rack all the time. bob. | i only smile when i lie, you can learn more in a bar | and i'll tell you why... than you can in a lawyer's office. | were these more than just my opinions, they would have cost a bit more. 
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<instance id="sci.med58803">
<answer instance="sci.med58803" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 gordon banks: a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity. i think all of us cycle. one's success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are. some people can cycle only 5 pounds. unfortunately, i'm not one of them. this certainly describes my situation perfectly. for me there is a constant dynamic between my tendency to eat, which appears to be totally limitless, and the purely conscious desire to not put on too much weight. when i get too fat, i just diet/exercise more (with varying degrees of success) to take off the extra weight. usually i cycle within a 15 lb range, but smaller and larger cycles occur as well. i'm always afraid that this method will stop working someday, but usually i seem to be able to hold the weight gain in check. this is one reason i have a hard time accepting the notion of some metabolic derangement associated with cycle dieting (that results in long-term weight gain). i have been cycle- dieting for at least 20 years without seeing such a change. as mentioned in adiposity 101, only some experience weight rebound. the fact that you don't doesn't prove it doesn't happen to others. chuck forsberg wa7kgx ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf author of ymodem, zmodem, professional-yam, zcomm, and dsz omen technology inc "the high reliability software" 17505-v nw sauvie is rd portland or 97231 503-621-3406 
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<instance id="sci.med58805">
<answer instance="sci.med58805" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my mom has just been diagnosed with cystic breast disease -- a big relief, as it was a lump that could have been cancer. her doctor says she should go off caffeine and chocolate for 6 months, as well as stopping the estrogen she's been taking for menopause-related reasons. she's not thrilled with this, i think especially because she just gave up cigarettes -- soon she won't have any pleasures left! now, i thought i'd heard that cystic breasts were common and not really a health risk. is this accurate? if so, why is she being told to make various sacrifices to treat something that's not that big of a deal? thanks for any information. -- chris black@sybase.com note: my mailer tends to garble subject lines. 
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<instance id="sci.med58806">
<answer instance="sci.med58806" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can anyone give me more information regarding endometriosis? i heard it's a very common disease among women and if anyone can provide names of a specialist/surgeon in the north carolina research triangle park area (raleigh/durham/chapel hill) who is familiar with the condition, i would really appreciate it. --naomi naomi l.t. courter network services specialist mcnc - center for communications concert network 
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<instance id="sci.med58808">
<answer instance="sci.med58808" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a(> from: adwright@iastate.edu () a(> a woman i know is tapering off klonopin. i believe that is one of the a(> benzodiazopines. she is taking a very minimal dose right now, half a tablet a(> a day. she is also pregnant. my question is are there any known cases where a(> klonopin or similar drug has caused harmful effects to the fetus? a(> how about cases where the mother took klonopin or similar substance and had a(> normal baby. any information is appreciated. she wants to get a feel for a(> what sort of risk she is taking. she is in her first month of pregnancy. klonopin, according to the pdr (physician's desk reference), is not a proven teratogen. there are isolated case reports of malformations, but it is impossible to establish cause-effect relationships. the overwhelming majority of women that take klonopin while pregnant have normal babies. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58809">
<answer instance="sci.med58809" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 as an animal science student, i know that a number of animals transfer immunoglobin to thier young through thier milk. in fact, a calf _must_ have a sufficient amount of colostrum (early milk) within 12 hours to effectively develop the immune system, since for the first (less than) 24 hours the intestines are "open" to the ig passage. my question is, does this apply to human infants to any degree? thanks for your time responding, matthew keeler c599143@mizzou1.missouri.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58812">
<answer instance="sci.med58812" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm assuming that you mean rheumatoid arthritis (ra). i've never heard of the "cold treatment" you mentioned. i can't imagine how it would work, since most of us who have rh.arthr./ra seem to have more problems in cold weather than in warm weather. would be interested to hear more! no, obviously talking about research assistants. i favor a high protein, low fat diet, barely adequate salary on a fixed time schedule, four hours of sleep a night, continuous infusion of latte, unpredictable praise mixed randomly with anxiety-provoking, everpresent glances with lowered eyebrows, unrealistic promises of rapid publication, and every three months a dinner consisting of nothing but microbrewery ale and free pretzels. actually, mine hails from san diego, and indeed has more problems in seattle in cold weather than in warm. doug fitts dfitts@u.washington.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58813">
<answer instance="sci.med58813" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i love the faq. the comment about contact lenses not being an option for any remaining correction after rk and possibly after prk is interresting. why is this? does anyone know for sure whether this applies to prk as well? also, why is it possible to get a correction in prk with involvement of only about 5% of the corneal depth, while rk is done to a depth of up to 95%? why such a difference? i thought the proceedures were simmilar with the exception of a laser being the cutting tool in prk. i must not be understanding all of the differences. in the faq, the vision was considered less clear after the surgery than with glasses alone. if this is completly attributable to the intentional slight undercorrection, then it can be compensated for when necessary with glasses (or contacts, if they can be worn afterall!). it is important to know if that is not the case, however, and some other consequence of the surgery would often interfere with clear vision. the first thing that came to my mind was a fogging of the lense, which glasses couldn't help. would not help. | daniel r. field, aka infospunj | i'm just a lowly phlebe. | | dfield@oboe.calpoly.edu | | | biochemistry, biotechnology | i'm at the phlebottom | | california polytechnic state u | of the medical totem pole. | 
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<instance id="sci.med58814">
<answer instance="sci.med58814" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hello to everybody, i write here because i am kind of desperate. for about six weeks, i've been suffering on pains in my left head side, the left leg and sometimes the left arm. i made many tests (e.g. computer tomography, negative, lyme borreliosis, negative, all electrolytes in the blood in their correct range), they're all o.k., so i should be healthy. as a matter of fact, i am not feeling so. i was also at a neurologist's too, he considered me healthy too. the blood tests have shown that i have little too much of hemoglobin (17.5, common range is 14 to 17, i unfortunately do not know about the units). could these hemi-sided pains be the result of this or of a also possible block of the neck muscles ? i have no fever, and i am not feeling entirely sick, but neither entirely please answer by direct email on <ghilardi@urz.unibas.ch> thanks for every hint 
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<instance id="sci.med58816">
<answer instance="sci.med58816" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 :>i think the scientists are biased towards the food industry or something. :>was the article long? would anyone be interested in posting it? :a neuroscientist told me that msg is used as a neurotoxin...that's :right...some labs use it to "kill" neurons in mice and rats vitamin a (and i think vitamin d) in strong enough amounts can kill. the key words are dosage and exposure mechanism. kenneth ng please reply to ken@blue.njit.edu for now. "all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone's table" -- j.l. picard: st:tng 
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<instance id="sci.med58820">
<answer instance="sci.med58820" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 after two weeks of limping around with an acute pain in my low back and right leg, my osteopath sent me to get an mri which revealed a protruding (and extruded) disc at l4-l5. i went to a neurosurgeon who prescribed prednisole (a steroidal anti-inflamitory) and bed for several days. it's been nearly a week and overall i feel slightly worse - i take darvocet three times a day so i can deal with daily activities like preparing food and help me get to sleep. i'll see the neurosurgeon tomorrow and of course i'll be asking whether or not this rest is helpful or if surgery is the next step. what are my non-surgical options if my goal is to resume full activity, including competitive cycling. i should add this condition is, in my opinion, the result of commulative wear and tear - i've had chronic low-back pain for years - but i managed you don't say whether or not you have any symptoms other than pain. if you have numbness, weakness or bladder problems, for example, these would suggest a need for surgery. if pain is your only symptom you might do well to find a reputable, multi-disciplinary pain clinic in your area. chronic low back pain generally doesn't do well with surgery, acute on chronic pain (as only symptom) doesn't fare much better. e correlation between mri findings and symptoms is controversial. don mackie - his opinions um will disavow... 
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<instance id="sci.med58822">
<answer instance="sci.med58822" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 this was known long ago. brain produces and uses some msg naturally, but not in doses it is served at some chinese places. having said that, i might add, that in mho, msg does not enhance flavor enoughf for me to miss it. when i go to chinese places, i order food without msg. goos places will do it for you. i just wanted to point out that some of the food, particularly the soups, are prepared in a big batch, so the restaurant won't be able to take the msg out of it. sometimes its pretty hard to find out if this is the case or not. alexander m. milshteyn m.d. <milsh@cipr-server.mgh.harvard.edu> cipr, mgh in boston, ma. (617)724-9507 vox (617)726-7830 fax david b. considine dbc@welkin.gsfc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.med58825">
<answer instance="sci.med58825" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can anyone tell me if a bloodcount of 40 when diagnosed as hypoglycemic is dangerous, i.e. indicates a possible pancreatic problem? one dr. says no, the other (not his specialty) says the first is negligent and that another blood test should be done. also, what is a good diet (what has worked) for a hypo- glycemic? tia. anthony anello batavia, illinois 
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<instance id="sci.med58828">
<answer instance="sci.med58828" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 now here is a new one: vomiting. my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem. in this case. it might be just food poisoning. but if you heard things about msg, you may think it must be it. yeah, it might, if you only read the part you quoted. you somehow left out the part about "we all ate the same thing." changes things a bit, eh? you complain that people blame msg automatically, since it's an unknown and therefore must be the cause. it is equally (if not more) unreasonable to defend it, automatically assuming that it can't be the culprit. pepper makes me sneeze. if it doesn't affect you the same way, fine. just don't tell me i'm wrong for saying so. these people aren't condemning chinese food, mr. chen - just one of its (optional) ingredients. try not to take it so personally. 
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<instance id="sci.med58829">
<answer instance="sci.med58829" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i love the faq. the comment about contact lenses not being an option for any remaining correction after rk and possibly after prk is interresting. why is this? does anyone know for sure whether this applies to prk as well? i've had prk. i would suggest asking a doctor about contacts. mine said yes to contacts. i think the scars from rk would preclude contacts. also, why is it possible to get a correction in prk with involvement of only about 5% of the corneal depth, while rk is done to a depth of up to 95%? why such a difference? i thought the proceedures were simmilar with the exception of a laser being the cutting tool in prk. i must not be understanding all of the differences. no. rk makes radial cuts around the circumference of the cornea, up to 8 i think, and these change the curvature of the cornea through stress chages. prk vaporizes (burns) away a thin layer from the front of the cornea making the optical axis of the eye shorter. the laser doesn't cut in prk, it vaporizes. in rk, the eye is cut into. in the faq, the vision was considered less clear after the surgery than with glasses alone. if this is completly attributable to the intentional slight undercorrection, then it can be compensated for when necessary with glasses (or contacts, if they can be worn afterall!). it is important to know if that is not the case, however, and some other consequence of the surgery would often interfere with clear vision. the first thing that came to my mind was a fogging of the lense, which glasses couldn't help. would not help. i find my vision is more clear for some things, and less clear for others, only at night. i notice a definite haloing at night in the darkness when i look at automobile headlamps, though this is not something i spend inordinate amounts of time doing. for ordinary things, my vision, in particular having a fully-operating peripheral vision, is clearer than with glasses, or contacts. | le jojo: fresh 'n' clean, speaking out to the way you want to live | today; american - all american; doing, a bit so, and even more so. 
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<instance id="sci.med58832">
<answer instance="sci.med58832" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 you can also swab the inside of your nose with bacitracin using a q tip. bacitracin is an antibiotic that can be bought otc as an ointment in a tube. the doctor i listen to on the radio says to apply it for 30 days, while you are taking other antibiotics by mouth. i have a new doctor who gave me a prescription today for something called septra ds. he said it may cause gi problems and i have a sensitive stomach to begin with. anybody ever taken this antibiotic. any good? suggestions for avoiding an upset stomach? other tips? phil de haan (dod #0578) why yes. that is my 1974 honda cl360. "that's the nature of being an executive in america. you have to rely on other people to do something you used to do yourself." -- donald fehr, executive director, major league baseball players association. 
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<instance id="sci.med58833">
<answer instance="sci.med58833" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 of course, bee venom isn't a single chemical. could be your brother is reacting to a different component than the one that causes anaphylactic shock in other people. similarly, chinese food isn't just msg. there are a lot of other ingredients in it. why, when someone eats something with lots of ingredients they don't normally consume, one of which happens to be msg, do they immediately conclude that any negative reaction is to the msg? read the memos!!!! i said that i personally had other people order the exact same food at two different times from the same restaurant and the people that ordered the food for me did not tell me which time the msg was in the food and which time it was not in the food. one time i had a reaction one time i did not the reaction came the time the msg was in the food that was the only difference same restaurant - same ingredients!!! why, when someone eats something with lots of ingredients they don't normally consume, one of which happens to be msg, do they immediately conclude that any negative reaction is to the msg? i eat lots of chinese food - i love chinese food. i've just learned the following if i get food at one of the restaurants that does not use msg or if i prepare the food myself without msg or if i order the food from a restaurant that will hold the msg (and i never get soup unless it's from a restaurant that cooks without the msg) i do not get a reaction!!!! do you understand!!!! i get a reaction from msg i do not get a reaction when there is no msg if you're having trouble understand this, please tell me which of the words you do not understand and i'll look them up in the dictionary for you. the great secret of successful marriage is to treat all disasters as incidents and none of the incidents as disasters. -- harold nicholson mary allison (mary@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu) urbana, illinois 
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<instance id="sci.med58836">
<answer instance="sci.med58836" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 => now here is a new one: vomiting. my guess is that msg becomes the number one => suspect of any problem. in this case. it might be just food poisoning. but => if you heard things about msg, you may think it must be it. =yeah, it might, if you only read the part you quoted. you somehow left =out the part about "we all ate the same thing." changes things a bit, eh? perhaps. now, just what leads you to believe that it was msg and not some other ingredient in the food that made you ill? =these people aren't condemning chinese food, mr. chen - just one of its =(optional) ingredients. try not to take it so personally. and you're condemning one particular ingredient without any evidence that that's the ingredient to which you reacted. carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med58839">
<answer instance="sci.med58839" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have had a sore throat for almost a week. when i look into the mirror with the aid of a flash light, i see white plaques in the very back of my throat (on the sides). i went to a health center to have a throat culture taken. they said that i do not have strep throat. could a viral infection cause white plaques on the sides of my throat? first, i am not a doctor. i know about this because i have been through it. it sounds like tonsilitis (lit. swollen tonsils). feel under your jaw hinge for a swelling on each side. if you find them, its tonsilitis. i've had this a couple of times in the past. the doctor prescribed a weeks course of penicillin and that cleared it up. in my case it was associated with glandular fever, which is a viral infection which (from my point of view) resembled flu and tonsilitis that kept coming back for a year or so. there is a blood test for in conclusion, see a doctor (if you have not done so already). paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions 
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<instance id="sci.med58840">
<answer instance="sci.med58840" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : could somebody explain to me what a centrifuge is and what it is : used for? i vaguely remembre it being something that spins test tubes : around really fast but i cant remember why youd want to do that? purely recreational. they get bored sitting in that rack all the time. no, this is wrong. the purpose is to preserve the substances in the tubes longer by creating relativistic speeds and thus time dilatation. of course, by slowing the subjective time of the test tubes they get less bored, which is probably what you were thinking of. david rind rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58842">
<answer instance="sci.med58842" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the subject-line says it: every time i run a fever, i get an amazing rosy rash over my torso and arms. fortunately, it doesn't itch. the rash always comes on the day after the fever breaks and no matter what the illness was: cold, flu, whatever. it started happening about four years ago after i moved to my current town, although i don't know if that has anything to do with anything. severity and persistance of the rash seems to vary with the fever: a severe or long-lasting fever brings a long-lasting rash. a mild fever seems to bring rashes that go away faster. anybody know what might be causing this? it's no more than an embarassment, but i'd be curious to know what's going on. am i carrying some kind of fever-resistant bug that goes wild when fever knocks out its competition? jim jones 
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<instance id="sci.med58848">
<answer instance="sci.med58848" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 it's worse than that -- there *is* no such thing as a double-blind study on the effects of msg, by virtue of the fact that msg changes the taste of food in a characteristic way that is detectable by the subject and that cannot be duplicated by a placebo. common! you can easily disguise to flavor of msg by putting it in a capsule. then, the study becomes a double blind of msg capsules against control capsules (containing exactly the same contents minus the msg). mark feblowitz, gte laboratories inc., 40 sylvan rd. waltham, ma 02254 mfeblowitz@gte.com, (617) 466-2947, fax: (617) 890-9320 
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<instance id="sci.med58849">
<answer instance="sci.med58849" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there such a thing as msg (monosodium glutamate) sensitivity? i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition. anybody here have experience to the contrary? i'm old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least a couple of times since the 1960s. then it was called the "chinese restaurant syndrome" because chinese cuisine has always used it. so far, i've seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence, but no facts. i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at work here. does anyone have results from a scientific study using double-blind trials? check out #27903, just some 20 posts before your own. maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses? yet again, the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of. for cites on msg, look up almost anything by john w. olney, a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development. it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive, and that its major constituent, glutamate is essentially the premierie neurotransmitter in the mammalian brain (humans included). too much in the diet, and the system gets thrown off. glutamate and aspartate, also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts, and are freely available in many foods, but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food. by eating lots of junk food, packaged soups, and diet soft drinks, it is possible to jack your blood levels so high, that anyone with a sensitivity to these compounds will suffer numerous *real* physi9logical effects. read olney's review paper in prog. brain res, 1988, and check *his* sources. they are impecable. there is no dispute. --dianne murray wcsbeau@ccs.carleton.ca in order to excitotoxin effects of msg, msg that in blood must go through blood-brain barrier that i am not sure msg can go through or not. in normal condition, the concentration of glutamate in the cerebrospinal fluid is about 2 um that is high enough to activate one type of glutamate receptor-the nmda receptor. but the question is neuron and glial cell in the brain have a lots of transport to get glutamate into neuron or glial. so no one know exact concentration of glutamate is around neurons. glutamate is most important neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. it is involved in not only in daily life like the controling of movement, it is alsoinvolved in develpoment, memory and learn (it is involved in logn-term potentialtion that be thought is the basis of learning). 
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<instance id="sci.med58851">
<answer instance="sci.med58851" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 you can also swab the inside of your nose with bacitracin using a q tip. bacitracin is an antibiotic that can be bought otc as an ointment in a tube. the doctor i listen to on the radio says to apply it for 30 days, while you are taking other antibiotics by mouth. i have a new doctor who gave me a prescription today for something called septra ds. he said it may cause gi problems and i have a sensitive stomach to begin with. anybody ever taken this antibiotic. any good? suggestions for avoiding an upset stomach? other tips? i've taken septra. my daughter has taken it many times for ear infections. it works sometimes. it is a sulfa drug. about the only problem i found was that i'm sensitive and developed a rash after nine days of a ten day course. no more septra for me. my doctor was remiss in not telling me to watch out for a rash. i was quite in the dark and didn't realize that it could be a drug reaction. no harm done though. douglas s. rand <drand@osf.org> osf/motif dev. snail: 11 cambridge center, cambridge, ma 02142 disclaimer: i don't know if osf agrees with me... let's vote on it. amateur radio: kc1kj 
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<instance id="sci.med58853">
<answer instance="sci.med58853" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i agree with everything that lee lady wrote in her previous post in this thread. in case this puzzles people, i would like to expand on two of her comments. avoiding mistakes is certainly highly desirable. however it is also widely acknowledged that perfectionism is inimicable to creativity. ... in the extreme case, a perfectionist becomes so paralyzed by all the possible mistakes he might make that he is unable to even leave the house. one of the most important (and difficult) aspects of reasoning about empirical investigation lies in understanding the context, scope, and importance of the various arguments and pieces of evidence that are marshalled for a claim. some errors break the back of a piece of research, some leave a hole that needs to be filled in, and some are trivial in their importance. it is a grave mistake to confuse these. past snippets from this thread: i doubt if einstein used any formal methodology. .... he also proposed numerous experiments which if performed would distinguish a universe in which special relativity holds from one in which it does not. ... back to lee lady: these are not the rules according to many who post to sci.med and sci.psychology. according to these posters "if it's not supported by carefully designed controlled studies then it's not science." these posters are making the mistake that i have previously criticized of adhering to a methodological recipe. a "carefully designed and controlled study" is neither always possible nor always important. (on the other hand, if someone is proposing a remedy that supposedly alleviates a chronic medical problem, we have enough knowledge of the errors that have plagued *this* kind of claim to ask for a "carefully designed and controlled study" to alleviate our skepticism.) rules such as "support the hypothesis by a carefully designed and controlled study" are too narrow to apply to *all* investigation. i think that the requirements for particular reasoning to be convincing depends greatly on the kinds of mistakes that have occurred in past reasoning about the same kinds of things. (to reuse the previous example, we know that conclusions from uncontrolled observations of the treatment of chronic medical problems are notoriously problematic.) 
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<instance id="sci.med58854">
<answer instance="sci.med58854" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there some difference between the purposes behind amniocentesis and chorionic villi sampling? they sound similar to me, but are intended to detect different 
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<instance id="sci.med58856">
<answer instance="sci.med58856" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a relative of mine was recently diagnosed with colon cancer. i would like to know the best source of survival statistics for this disease when discovered at its various stages. i would prefer to be directed to a recent source of this data, rather than receive the data itself. thank you, * barry rein * brein@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov * no clever comment. 
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<instance id="sci.med58860">
<answer instance="sci.med58860" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 probably within 50 years, a new type of eugenics will be possible. [...should] we do this? should we make a race of disease-free, long-lived, arnold schwartzenegger-muscled, supermen? even if we can. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." two thoughts. - i think that psychologically it will be easier for the next generation to accept genetic manipulation. it seems that people frown upon 'messing with nature', ignoring our eons-old practice of doing just that. any new human intervention is 'arrogance and hubris' and manipulation we routinely do is 'natural' and certainly 'not a big deal'. - most interesting human traits will probably be massively polygenetic and be full of trade-offs. in addition, without a positive social environment for the cultivation of genetic gifts, having them won't be the advantage it's made out to be. some people will certainly pursue it as if it is the grail, but we know how most of those quests turn out. chris schaeffer 
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<instance id="sci.med58862">
<answer instance="sci.med58862" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the following 4 addresses are on the lymenet mailing list, but are rejecting mail. since the list server originally accepted these addresses successfully, i assume these addresses have since been eliminated. improperly functioning mail gateways might also be responsible. if you are listed here and would still like to remain on the list, please write to me. otherwise, i will remove these addresses from the list before the next newsletter goes out. as a general rule, please remember to *unsubscribe* from all your mailing lists before your account is closed. this will save the listserv maintainer from many headaches. lezliel@sitka.sun.com kenneth_r_hall@roch817.xerox.com westmx!ayoub@uunet.uu.net absol.absol.com!rsb@panix.com marc c. gabriel - u.c. box 545 - (215) 882-0138 lehigh university 
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<instance id="sci.med58863">
<answer instance="sci.med58863" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 [from kalat, j.w.. (1992): _biological psychology_. wadsworth publishing co. belmont, ca. pg. 219. reproduced without permission.] digression 6.1: miracle berries and the modification of taste receptors although the _miracle berry_, a plant native to west africa is practically tasteless, it temporarily changes the taste of other substances. miracle berries contain a protein, _miraculin_, that modifies sweet receptors in such a way that they can be stimulated by acids (bartoshuk, gentile, moskowitz, & meiselman, 1974). if you ever get a chance to chew a miracle berry (and i do recommend it), for about the next half an hour all acids (which are normally sour) will taste sweet. they will continue to taste sour as well. miraculin was, for a time, commercially available in the united states as a diet aid. the idea was that dieters could coat their tongue with a miraculin pill and then eat and drink unsweetened, slightly acidic substances. such substances would taste sweet without providing many calories. a colleague and i once spent an evening experimenting with miracle berries. we drank straight lemon juice, sauerkraut juice, even vinegar. all tasted extremely sweet. somehow we forgot how acidic these substances are. we awoke the next day to find our mouths full of ulcers. [... continued discussion of a couple other taste-altering substances ...] refs: bartoshuk, l.m., gentile, r.l., moskowitz, h.r., & meiselman, h.l. (1974): sweet taste induced by miracle fruit (_synsephalum dulcificum_). _physiology & behavior_. 12(6):449-456. anyone ever hear of these things or know where to get them? andersom@spot.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58866">
<answer instance="sci.med58866" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife has become interested through an acquaintance in post-polio syndrome this apparently is not recognised in new zealand and different symptons ( eg chest complaints) are treated separately. does anone have any information on 
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<instance id="sci.med58867">
<answer instance="sci.med58867" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 carl lydick: and you're condemning one particular ingredient without any evidence that that's the ingredient to which you reacted. believe what you will. the mass of anectdotal evidence, combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis, makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events. 
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<instance id="sci.med58869">
<answer instance="sci.med58869" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 sp> from: paulson@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (sharon paulson) sp> to describe here. i have a fourteen year old daugter who experienced sp> a seizure on november 3, 1992 at 6:45am after eating kellog's frosted sp> flakes. sp> well, we were going along fine and the other morning, april 5, she had sp> a bowl of another kellog's frosted kind of cereal, fruit loops (i am sp> when i mentioned what she ate the first time as a possible reason for sp> the seizure the neurologist basically negated that as an idea. now sp> after this second episode, so similar in nature to the first, even sp> he is scratching his head. there's no data that sugar-coated cereals cause seizures. i haven't even seen anything anecdotal on it. given how common they are eaten - do you know any child or adolescent who *doesn't* eat the stuff? - i think that if there were a relationship we would know it by now. also, there's nothing weird in those cereals. as far as the brain is concerned (except for a few infantile metabolic disorders such as galactosemia), sugar is sugar, regardless if it is coated on cereal, sprinkled onto cereal, or dissolved in soda, coffee or whatever. there was some interest a few years ago in aspartame lowering seizure thresholds, but i don't believe anything ever came of it. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58870">
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 gb> from: geb@cs.pitt.edu (gordon banks) gb> the hmo would stop the over-ordering, but in hmos, tests are gb> under-ordered. that's a somewhat overbroad statement. i'm sure there are hmos in which the fees for lab tests are subtracted from the doctor's income. in most, however, including the one i work for, there is no direct incentive to under-order. profits of the group are shared among all partners, but the group is so large that an individual's generated costs have a miniscule effect. i don't believe that we under-order. then again, i'm not really sure what the right amount of ordering is or should be. relative to the average british neurologist, i suspect that i rather drastically over-order. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58871">
<answer instance="sci.med58871" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'd dump him. rude is rude and it seems he enjoys belittling and humiliating you. but don't just dump him, write to him and tell him why you are firing him. if you can, think about sending a copy of your letter to whoever is in charge of the clinic where he works, if applicable, or maybe even to the ama. don't be vindictive in your letter, be truthful but very firm. but don't be a victim and just put up with it. take control! it'll make you feel great! nancy m. nancy p. milligan npm@netcom.com npm@dale.cts.com 
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<instance id="sci.med58875">
<answer instance="sci.med58875" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine is having some symptoms and has asked me to post the following information. a few weeks ago, she noticed that some of her hair was starting to fall out. she would touch her head and strands of hair would just fall right out. (by the way, she is 29 or 30 years old). it continued to occur until she had a bald spot about the size of a half dollar. since that time, she has gotten two more bald spots of the same size. other symptoms she's described include: several months of an irregular menstrual cycle (which is strange for her, because she has always been extremely regular); laryngitis every few days -- she will wake up one morning and have almost no voice, and then the next day it's fine; dizzy spells -- she claims that she's had 4 or 5 very bad dizzy spells early in the morning, including one that knocked her to the ground; and general fatigue. she went to a dermatologist first who couldn't find any reason for the symptoms and sent her to an internist who suspected thyroid problems. he did the blood work and claims that everything came back normal. she's very concerned and very confused. does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? i told her that i thought she should see an endocrinologist. does that sound like the right idea? ** by the way, in case you are going to ask...no, she has recently taken any medications that would cause these symptoms...no, she hasn't recently changed her hair products and she hasn't gotten a perm, coloring, or other chemical process that might cause hair to fall thanks in advance for any help! 
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<instance id="sci.med58876">
<answer instance="sci.med58876" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 probably within 50 years, a new type of eugenics will be possible. maybe even sooner. we are now mapping the human genome. we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome. using genetic engineering, we will be able to insert whatever genes we want. no breeding, no "hybrids", etc. the ethical question is, should we do this? should we make a race of disease-free, long-lived, arnold schwartzenegger-muscled, supermen? even if we can. probably within 50 years, it will be possible to disassemble and re-assemble our bodies at the molecular level. not only will flawless cosmetic surgery be possible, but flawless cosmetic psychosurgery. what will it be like to store all the prices of shelf-priced bar-coded goods in your head, and catch all the errors they make in the store's favor at safeway? what will it be like to mentally edit and spell- check your responses to the questions posed by a phone caller selling vacation time-share options? indeed, we are today a nation at risk! the threat is not from bad genes, but bad memes! memes are the basic units of culture, as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics. we stand on the brink of new meme-amplification technologies! harmful memes which formerly were restricted in their destructive power will run rampant over the countryside, laying waste to the real benefits that future technology has to offer. for example, jeremy rifkin has been busy trying to whip up emotions against the new genetically engineered tomatoes under development at calgene. this guy is inventing harmful memes, a virtual memetic typhoid we must expand the public-health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes. they should not be allowed to infect other people with their memes against genetically-engineered food, electromagnetic fields, and the space shuttle solid rocket boosters. 
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<instance id="sci.med58878">
<answer instance="sci.med58878" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 furthermore, the big bucks approach to science promotes what i think is one of the most significant errors in science: choosing to investigate questions because they can be readily handled by the currently fashionable methodology (or because one can readily get institutional or corporate sponsorship for them) instead of directing attention to those questions which seem to have fundamental significance. shades of james watson! that's exactly the way many workers have described their misgivings about the human genome project. if you take a rigid definition of scientific research, the mere accumulation of data is not doing science. one of the early arguments against the project were that the resources would be better used to focus on specific genetics-related problems rather than just going off and collecting maps and sequence. the project can't be so narrowly defined or easily described now though. 
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<instance id="sci.med58880">
<answer instance="sci.med58880" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have bad luck and got a vd called <granuloma ingunale>, which involves the growth of granules in the groin. i found out about it by checking medicine books and i found the prescriptions. and i know i can just go to a clinic to get it cured. but unfortunately i am serving my duty in the army right now and i think it's impossible to prevent anyone from knowing this if i take leaves every day for two weeks for treatment. thus i bought the prescribed tablets at some drugstore, but to cure it i must get injection of <streptomycin>, with a dose of 1g every 12 hours, for at least 10 days. i can probably buy the tools and this solution somewhere but i don't know how to do injection by myself can any kind people here tell me: if it's possible to do it? can i do it on my arm? or it must be done on the hip only?? any info is welcome and please write me or post your help soon!! (i am already taking the tablets ..and i can't wait!!) please don't flame me for posting this, and don't judge me. i've learned a lesson and all i need now is real medical help. desperate from taipei 
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<instance id="sci.med58882">
<answer instance="sci.med58882" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 gordon rubenfeld responds to ron roth: gr> gr> rr> well, gordon, i look at the results, not at anyone's *scientific* gr> rr> stamp of approval. gr> gr> if you and your patients (followers?) are convinced (as you've written) gr> by your methods of uncontrolled, undocumented, unreported, unsubstantiated, gr> subjective endpoint research - great. but, why should the rest of us care? gordon, even if you are trying to beat this issue to death, you'll never get more than a stalemate out of this one! i have never tried to force my type of medicine on any of you. why should i? my patients are happy. i'm happy. you and your peers seem to be the only miserable ones around bemoaning the steady loss of patients to the alternative camp. just look at europe. there has been a steady exodus from 'synthetic' medicine for over a decade now, and it'll be just a matter of time before more people on this continent will abandon their drug and white coat worship as well and visit different doctors for different needs. gr> you see ron, the point isn't whether you and your patients are gr> convinced that whatever it is you do works; it's whether what you do is gr> more effective in similar cases (of whatever it is you think you are gr> treating) than cupping, bloodletting, and placebo. this is very interesting. i have come exactly to the same conclusions but in regards to *conventional* medicine. you see, i don't just treat little old ladies that wouldn't know any different of what is being done, but a bulk of my patients consist of teachers, lawyers, judges, nurses, accountants, university graduates, and various health practitioners. if these people have gotten results with my method after having been unsuccessful with yours or their own, i certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over whether you or your peers approve of my treatments --- let's face it, with all the blunders committed by "scientific" mds over the years, i know a lot of people who hold your *scientific* method in much lower esteem than they hold mine! gr> as far as we know ayurveda = crystals = homeopathy = ron roth gr> which may all equal placebo administered with appropriate gr> trappings... sorry, but i'm not familiar or interested with what appears to be 'new age' medicine (ayurveda, crystals), with the exception of homeo- pathy, of which i took a course. but gordon, you already knew that - you just wanted to make my system look a bit more far out, right? i use homeopathy very little, since my cellular test (emr) is hard to beat for accuracy and minerals are more predictable, while homeopathy does have a problem with reliability, especially in acute conditions. an exception perhaps are homeopathic nosodes which act fairly quickly and are more dependable in certain viral or bacterial situations. gr> my colleagues and i spend hours debating study design gr> and results, even of therapies currently accepted as "standard". gr> as good (well, adequate) scientists, we are prepared, *if gr> presented with appropriate data*, to abandon our most deeply held gr> beliefs in favor of new ideas. i have met the challenges of hundreds of sceptics by verifying the accuracy of measuring their mineral status to their total satisfac- tion --- in other words everyone involved is happy! if you were to cook a meal, would you worry over whether everyone in this world would find it to their liking, or only those that end up eating it? since i have financed every research project that i have undertaken entirely myself, i don't need to follow any of your rules or guide- lines to satisfy any aspects of a grant application, which you may have to; neither am i concerned of whether or not my study designs meet your or anyone else's criteria or acceptance. gr> sorry ron, if conviction were the ruler of truth, a flat earth would gr> still be the center of the universe and epilepsy a curse of the gods. i think there would be more justification for an uneducated person growing up in an uncivilized environment to believe in a flat earth, than for a civilized, well educated and scientifically trained mind to follow the doctrine of evolution. genetic engineering of course is now the final frontier to show god how it is (properly) done. now we've become capable of creating our own paradise and give disease (and god) the boot, right? but just before we get rid of him for good, perhaps he could leave us some pointers on how to solve a couple of tiny problems, such as war, poverty, racism, crime, riots, substance abuse... and one last thing, could he also give us a hint on how to control natural disasters, the weather, and last, but not least --- peace? --ron-- rosereader 2.00 p003228: the lab called: your brain is ready. rosemail 2.10 : usenet: rose media - hamilton (416) 575-5363 
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<instance id="sci.med58884">
<answer instance="sci.med58884" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 cross-posted and with followups directed to talk.politics.theory. indeed, we are today a nation at risk! the threat is not from bad genes, but bad memes! memes are the basic units of culture, as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics. we must expand the public-health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes. ... in other words, we should jail people who say the wrong things. in this advocacy, we can see a truly ugly meme. does mark robert thorson advocate jailing himself? 
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<instance id="sci.med58888">
<answer instance="sci.med58888" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 |> i have been contemplating this idea for some time as well. i am not a |> doctor, but my wife is a nurse and i know a lot of doctors and nurses. |> the point here being that doctors and nurses do not seem to get sick |> nearly as much as people outside the medical profession. this is a lovely area for anecdotes, but i am sure you are on to something. as a physician, i almost never get sick: usually, when something horrendous is going around, i either don't get it at all or get a very mild case. when i do get really sick, it is always something unusual. this was not the situation when i was in medical school, particularly on pediatrics. i never had younger siblings myself, and when i went on the pediatric wards i suddenly found myself confronting all sorts of infectious challenges that my body was not ready for. pediatrics for me was three solid months of illness, and i had a temp of 104 when i took the final exam! i think what happens is that during training, and beyond, we are constantly exposed to new things, and we have the usual reactions to them, so that later on, when challenged with something, it is more likely a re-exposure for us, so we deal with it well and get a mild illness. i don't think it is that the immune system is hyped up in any way. also, don't forget that the hospital flora is very different from the home, and we carry a lot of that 
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<instance id="sci.med58891">
<answer instance="sci.med58891" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 keith is the only person i have ever heard of that keeps the weight off without any conscious effort to control eating behavior. ... most of us have to diet a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity. i attribute my success to several factors: very low fat. except when someone else has cooked a meal for me, i only eat fruit, vegetables, and whole grain or bran cereals. i estimate i only get about 5 to 10 percent of my calories from fat. very little sugar or salt. very high fiber. most americans get about 10 grams. 25 to 35 are recommended. i get between 50 and 150. sometimes 200. (i've heard of people taking fiber pills. it seems unlikely that pills can contain enough fiber to make a difference. it would be about as likely as someone getting fat by popping fat pills. tablets are just too small, unless you snarf down hundreds of them daily.) my "clean your plate" conditioning works *for* me. eating the last 10% takes half my eating time, and gives satiety a chance to catch up, so i don't still feel hungry and go start eating something else. i don't eat when i'm not hungry (unless i'm sure i'll get hungry shortly, and eating won't be practical then). i bike to work, 22 miles a day, year round. fast. i also bike to stores, movies, and everywhere else, as i've never owned a car. i estimate this burns about 1000 calories a day. it also helps build and maintain muscle mass, prevent insulin resistance (diabetes runs in my family), and increase my metabolism. (even so, my metabolism is so low that when i'm at rest i'm most comfortable with a temperature in the 90s (f), and usually wear a sweater if it drops to 80.) cycling also motivates me to avoid every excess ounce. (cyclists routinely pay a premium for cycling products that weigh slightly less than others. but it's easier and cheaper to trim weight from the rider than from the vehicle.) there's no question in my mind that my metabolism is radically different from that of most people who have never been fat. fortunately, it isn't different in a way that precludes excellent health. obviously, i can't swear that every obese person who does what i've done will have the success i did. but i've never yet heard of one who did try it and didn't succeed. i think all of us cycle. one's success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are. some people can cycle only 5 pounds. i'm sure everyone's weight cycles, whether or not they've ever been fat. i usually eat extremely little salt. when i do eat something salty, my weight can increase overnight by as much as ten pounds. it comes off again over a week or two. keith lynch, kfl@access.digex.com f p=2,3:2 s q=1 x "f f=3:2 q:f*f>p!'q s q=p#f" w:q p,?$x\8+1*8 
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<instance id="sci.med58893">
<answer instance="sci.med58893" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet. the theory -- which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results -- is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people. i don't remember any connection being made with seizures, but it certainly couldn't hurt to try an all-natural diet. 
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<instance id="sci.med58895">
<answer instance="sci.med58895" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the mass of anectdotal evidence, combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis, makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events. you forgot the smiley-face. i can't believe this is what they turn out at berkeley. tell me you're an aberration. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med58897">
<answer instance="sci.med58897" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses? you mean the responses some of which pointed to double-blind tests which show no such "chinese restaurant effect" unique to msg (it's elicited by the placebo as well.) many people responded with more anecdotal stories; i think its safe to say the original poster is already familiar with such stories. presumably, he wants hard info to substantiate or refute claims about msg making people ill. similarly, debunking such claims without doing research (whether literature and lab), is equally beside the point. the original poster no doubt already knows that some people think 'chinese restaurant syndrome' is bogus. placebos are all very interesting, but irrelevant to the question of what effects msg has. you could have real effects *and* placebo effects; people may have allergies in addition. yet again, the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of. like youself? someone who can read a scientific paper and apparently come away from it with bizarrely cracked ideas which have nothing to do with the use of this substance in human nutrition? have you read olney's work? i fail to see how citing results from peer-reviewed studies qualifies as "bizarrely cracked". for cites on msg, look up almost anything by john w. olney, a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development. it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive, no, it's undisputed in the literature that glutamate is an amino acid which is an excitatory neurotransmitter. there is also evidence that excessive release of glutamate may be involved in the pathology of certain conditions like stroke, drowning and lou gehrig's disease, just to name a few. this is a completely different issue than the use of this ubiquitous amino acid in foods. people are not receiving intra-ventricular injections of glutamate. tests have been done on rhesus monkeys, as well. i have never seen a study where the mode of administration was intra-ventricular. the glu and asp were administered orally. some studies used iv and sc. intra-ventricular is not a normal admin. method for food tox. studies, for obvious reasons. you must not have read the peer-reviewed works that i referred to or you would never have come up with this brain injection bunk. too much in the diet, and the system gets thrown off. sez you. such an effect in humans has not been demonstrated in any controlled studies. infant mice and other models are useful as far as they go, but they're not relevant to the matter at hand. which is not to say that i favor its use in things like baby food--a patently ridiculous use of the additive. but we have no reason to believe that msg in the diet effects humans adversely. pardon me, but where are you getting this from? have you read the journals? have you done a thorough literature search? but, you're right, mice aren't the best to study this on. they're four times less sensitive than humans to msg. glutamate and aspartate, also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts, and are freely available in many foods, but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food. wrong. do you know how much aspartate or phenylalanine is in a soft drink? milligrams worth. compare that to a glass of milk. do you know how much glutamate is present in most protein-containing foods compared to that added by the use of msg? the point is exceeding the window. of course, they're amino acids. note that people with pku cannot tolerate any phenylalanine. olney's research compared infant human diets. specifically, the amount of freely available glu in mother's milk versus commercial baby foods, vs. typical lunch items from the standard american diet such as packaged soup mixes. he found that one could exceed the projected safety margin for infant humans by at least four-fold in a single meal of processed foods. mother's milk was well below the effective dose. read olney's review paper in prog. brain res, 1988, and check *his* sources. they are impecable. there is no dispute. impeccable. there most certainly is a dispute. between who? over what? i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer-reviewed non-food-industry-funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer hmm. ".com". why am i not surprised? - dianne murray wcsbeau@ccs.carleton.ca 
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<instance id="sci.med58898">
<answer instance="sci.med58898" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar. some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet. it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances. the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage, as both are toxic to living cells. all i can say is that i will not consume it. phenylalanine is nothing for you to worry about. it is an amino acid, and everyone uses small quantities of it for protein synthesis in the body. some people have a disease known as phenylketoneurea, and they are missing the enzyme necessary to degrade this compound and eliminate it from the body. for them, it will accumulate in the body, and in high levels this is toxic to growing nerve cells. therefore, it is only a major problem in young children (until around age 10 or so) or women who are pregnant and have this disorder. it used to be a leading cause of brain damage in infants, but now it can be easily detected at birth, and then one must simply avoid comsumption of phenylalanine as a child, or when pregnant. 
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<instance id="sci.med58899">
<answer instance="sci.med58899" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet. the theory -- which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results -- is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people. i don't remember any connection being made with seizures, but it certainly couldn't hurt to try an all-natural diet. yeah, the "feingold diet" is a load of crap. children diagnosed with add who are placed on this diet show no improvement in their intellectual and social skills, which in fact continue to decline. of course, the parents who are enthusiastic about this approach lap it up at the expense of their children's development. so much for the value of "interesting anecdotal results". people will believe anything if they want to. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med58905">
<answer instance="sci.med58905" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 this will be the first of monthly postings of the newsletter of the long island chapter of the transplant recipients international organization (trio). unfortunately, i was unable to post it before the date of this month's meeting. i'm posting it anyway, and posting it world-wide instead of regional, in the hopes that some of the information may be useful or illustrative. also, i hope it can be used as an example and inspiration for the posting of other newsletters and data related to organ transplantation and donation. transplant recipients international organization long island chapter p.o. box 922 huntington, ny 11743-0922 newsletter 516/421-3258 april 1993 volume iv no. 8 next meeting the next meeting is wednesday april 14 at 8 pm at the knights of columbus emerald manor, 517 uniondale avenue in uniondale. our guest speaker will be dr. lewis teperman. dr. teperman trained in pittsburgh under dr. starzl and is now the assistant director of the liver transplant program at new york university medical center. dr. teperman will discuss current trends in transplantation and treatment and will answer questions. he is a long time friend of trio, surgeon to many of our members, and always a gracious and delightful guest. it is sure to be a very informative, interesting and engaging evening. our hospitality committee, bette and vito suglia and jim spence will be well prepared, and at last the weather should be cooperative. we hope to see a very large gathering to welcome dr. teperman. wednesday april 14 k of c uniondale last meeting it has been noted here before that the long island chapter of trio has extraordinary power in predicting bad weather, being able to forecast rain, sleet and snow fully a month in advance. no tv weatherman can match us. this time we not only scored again, but we were also able to disable the long island railroad, making travel really difficult. none the less, many braved the snow and we had an interesting meeting and good conversation. our scheduled speaker, mrs. elizabeth linnehan, a professional nutritionist, had a family emergency and was not able to attend. she hope she will be with us in the fall to discuss diet and medications. however, ms. jennifer friedman, an image consultant and sister of a liver transplant recipient was kind enough to step in on very short notice. ms. friedman gave us a lot of good advice about choosing clothes and makeup, (even a bit for men) to help us look well and healthy and to minimize some of the cosmetic effects of some of the medicine and drugs we take. we are most grateful to jennifer and thank her for an entertaining evening. annual meeting in addition to welcoming dr. teperman, the april meeting is also the annual meeting of the chapter. this is the official notice of the meeting as required by our by-laws. the main purpose of the meeting is to review the past year, solicit member views and ideas for better ways to meet their needs, and to elect members of the board of directors for the coming two year term. the nominating committee has prepared the following slate for the board. anne (liver recipient) and don treffeisen robert (heart recipient) and eulene smith vito (kidney recipient) and bette suglia kay grenzig (liver recipient) jan schichtel (kidney recipient) larry juliano (kidney recipient) david bekofsky (director public education litp) those remaining on the board for another year are: robert carroll (liver, kidney & pancreas recipient) jerry (kidney recipient) and jeanne eichhorn ron (kidney donor) and marie healy peter smith (bone marrow recipient) patricia ann yankus (kidney and pancreas recipient) walter ruzak (kidney recipient) this may seem to be a big board, but many hands make light work and with our various medical uncertainties, it is good to have backups for all the jobs on the board. therefore, in addition to the slate being presented for voting, nominations will also be accepted from the floor. there is no set number of board members and there is plenty of work. in addition, brief treasurer's and membership reports will be given and the floor will be open for any new business, suggestions, or comments anyone would like to bring up. we will keep the formal meeting short so that we can spend the majority of the time with dr. teperman. future meetings remember the scheduled guests for the rest of the year. may 12 dr. peter shaprio, chief of psychiatry columbia presbyterian medical center june 9 dr. felix rappaport, director of the stony brook kidney transplant program. plan on being with us the second wednesday of each month. the week of april 18-24 is national organ and tissue donor awareness week. notdaw. while we are planning news releases, speaking engagements and meetings with supervisors gullata and gaffney, we have decided not to have our softball game because of two year's experience with miserable weather. we all can help spread the word on donor awareness, however. we have found it effective to ask your pastor, or rabbi to publish a letter or announcement in the parish bulletin, allow you to address the congregation, or include mention of the gift of life in his sermon. attached to this newsletter is a sample letter and fact sheet you can use. thank you. dr. starzl to be honored the long island chapter of the american liver foundation will hold its annual auction and dinner dance on may 7th at the fountainbleu on jericho turnpike in jericho. dr. thomas starzl will be the honored guest. tickets are $50 person and are going fast. if you'd like to meet dr. starzl, call anne treffeisen at (516) 421-3258 for details. membership news congratulations to al reese. al received his heart transplant in pittsburgh after waiting 3 1/2 years. he is home and doing well after only 12 days in hospital. arthur michaels, liver recipient, is planning to run the boston marathon in april. what fantastic proof that transplantation works! we hope the national press notices. bob mccormack, after a persistent bout with infection, had his transplanted kidney removed. he is home now, back on dialysis and feeling better. nicole healy, kidney recipient and daughter of ron and marie, spent the past several weeks in hospital in miami with problems encountered on vacation. marie has been with her in florida. they are back in new york where nicole's treatment will continue. we wish nicole a speedy recovery. kay grenzig, liver recipient, is mending now after a bad fall that resulted in a broken arm and a broken leg. kay is a candidate for the board so we need her well soon. and best wishes to all coming out of the flu. it was a tough winter for many, but the tulips are just under the snow. see you......wednesday april 14 8 pm k of c uniondale dr. lewis teperman 
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<answer instance="sci.med58907" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 many people responded with more anecdotal stories; i think its safe to say the original poster is already familiar with such stories. presumably, he wants hard info to substantiate or refute claims about msg making people ill. there has been no hard info provided about msg making people ill. that's the point, after all. like youself? someone who can read a scientific paper and apparently come away from it with bizarrely cracked ideas which have nothing to do with the use of this substance in human nutrition? have you read olney's work? i fail to see how citing results from peer-reviewed studies qualifies as "bizarrely cracked". that's because these "peer-reviewed" studies are not addressing the effects of msg in people, they're looking at animal models. you can't walk away from this and start ranting about gloom and doom as if there were any documented deleterious health effects demonstrated in humans. note that i wouldn't have any argument with a statement like "noting that animal administration has pro- duced the following [blah, blah], we must be careful about its use in humans." this is precisely not what you said. tests have been done on rhesus monkeys, as well. i have never seen a study where the mode of administration was intra-ventricular. the glu and asp were administered orally. some studies used iv and sc. intra-ventricular is not a normal admin. method for food tox. studies, for obvious reasons. you must not have read the peer-reviewed works that i referred to or you would never have come up with this brain injection bunk. it most certainly is for neurotoxicology. you know, studies of glutamate involve more than "food science". pardon me, but where are you getting this from? have you read the journals? have you done a thorough literature search? so, point us to the studies in humans, please. i'm familiar with the literature, and i've never seen any which relate at all to olney's work in animals and the effects of glutamate on neurons. the point is exceeding the window. of course, they're amino acids. note that people with pku cannot tolerate any phenylalanine. well, actually, they have to tolerate some phenylalanine; it's a essential amino acid. they just try to get as little as is healthy without producing dangerous levels of phenylalanine and its metabolites in the blood. olney's research compared infant human diets. specifically, the amount of freely available glu in mother's milk versus commercial baby foods, vs. typical lunch items from the standard american diet such as packaged soup mixes. he found that one could exceed the projected safety margin for infant humans by at least four-fold in a single meal of processed foods. mother's milk was well below the effective dose. goodness, i'm not saying that it's good to feed infants a lot of glutamate-supplemented foods. it's just that this "projected safety margin" is a construct derived from animal models and given that, you can "prove" anything you like. we're talking prudent policy in infant nutrition here, yet you're misrepresenting it as received wisdom. read olney's review paper in prog. brain res, 1988, and check *his* sources. they are impecable. there is no dispute. impeccable. there most certainly is a dispute. between who? over what? i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer-reviewed non-food-industry-funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever. you mean "asserting". you're being intellectually dishonest (or just plain confused), because you're conflating reports which do not necessarily have anything to do with each other. olney's reports would argue a potential for problems in human infants, but that's not to say that this says anything whatsoever about the use of msg in most foods, nor does he provide any studies in humans which indicate any deleterious effects (for obvious reasons.) it says nothing about msg's contribtion to the phenomenon of the "chinese restaurant syndrome". it says nothing about the frequent inability to replicate anecdotal reports of msg sensitivity in the lab. dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com hmm. ".com". why am i not surprised? - dianne murray wcsbeau@ccs.carleton.ca probably one of the dumber remarks you've made. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med58908">
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 does anyone know of any method to reduce this frequency? my younger brothers each tried a skin transplant (thigh to nose lining), but their nosebleeds soon returned. i've seen a reference to an herb called rutin that is supposed to help, and i'd like to hear of experiences with it, or other rutin is a bioflavonoid, compounds found (among other places) in the rinds of citrus fruits. these have been popular, especially in europe, to treat "capillary fragility", and seemingly in even more extreme cases-- a few months ago, a friend was visiting from italy, and he said that he'd had hemorrhoids, but his pharmacist friend sold him some pills. incredulously, i asked to look at them, and sure enough these contained rutin as the active ingredient. i probably destroyed the placebo effect from my skeptical sputtering. i have no idea how he's doing hemorrhoid-wise these days. the studies which attempted to look at the effect of these compounds in human disease and nutrition were never very well controlled, so the reports of positive results with them is mostly anecdotal. this stuff is pretty much non-toxic, and probably inexpensive, so there's little risk of trying it, but i wouldn't expect much of a result. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med58911">
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 i looked for diab in my .newsrc and came up with nuthin. anyone have any good sources for where i can read? in particular, i'm interested in finding out more about intravenous insulin injection for hepatic vein liver activation. (whew! wotta mouthful!) anything that smells like a pointer would be helpful: newsgroup, mailinglist, etc.... many thanks. ----------time flies like the wind. fruit flies like bananas.------------------ steven w. orr steveo@world.std.com uunet!world!steveo ----------everybody repeat after me: "we are all individuals."----------------- 
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<instance id="sci.med58912">
<answer instance="sci.med58912" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods, namely that carcinogens are generated. is this a valid concern? if so, is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures? is it a function of the cooking elements, wood or charcoal vs. lava rocks? i wish to know more. thanks. i recall that the issue is that fat on the meat liquifies and then drips down onto the hot elements--whatever they are--that the extreme heat then catalyzes something in the fat into one or more carcinogens which then are carried back up onto the meat in the smoke. --the ol' professor 
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<instance id="sci.med58913">
<answer instance="sci.med58913" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 this reminds me of the last graham kerr cooking show i saw. today he smoked meat on the stovetop in a big pot! he used a strange technique i'd never seen before. he took a big pot with lid, and placed a tray in it made from aluminum foil. the tray was about the size and shape of a typical coffee-table ash tray, made by crumpling a sheet of foil around the edges. in the tray, he placed a couple spoonfuls of brown sugar, a similar quantity of brown rice (he said any rice will do), the contents of two teabags of earl grey tea, and a few cloves. on top of this was placed an ordinary aluminum basket-type steamer, with two chicken breasts in it. the lid was put on, and the whole assembly went on the stovetop at high heat for 10 or 12 minutes. later, he removed what looked like smoked chicken breasts. what surprises and concerns me are: 1) no wood chips. where does the smoke flavor come from? 2) about 5 or 10 years ago, i remember hearing that carmel color (obtained by caramelizing sugar -- a common coloring and flavoring agent) had been found to be carcinogenic. i believe they injected it under the skin of rats, or something. if the results were conclusive, caramel color would not be legal in the u.s., yet it is still being used. was the initial research result found to be incorrect, or what? 3) about 5 or 10 years ago, i remember earl grey tea being implicated as carcinogenic, because it contains oil of bergamot (an extract from the skin of a type of citrus fruit). does anyone know whatever happened with that story? if it were carcinogenic, earl grey tea could not have it as an additive, yet it apparently continues to do wrt natural wood smoke (i've smoking a duck right now, as it happens), i've noticed that a heavily-smoked food item will have an unpleasant tangy taste when eaten directly out of the smoker if the smoke has only recently stopped flowing. i find the best taste to be had by using dry wood chips, getting lots of smoke right up at the beginning of the cooking process, then slowly barbequing for hours and hours without adding additional wood chips. my theory is that the unpleasant tangy molecules are low-molecular weight stuff, like terpenes, and that the smoky flavor molecules are some sort of larger molecule more similar to tar. the long barbeque time after the initial intensive smoke drives off the low-molecular weight stuff, just leaving the flavor behind. does anyone know if my theory is correct? i also remember hearing that the combustion products of fat dripping on the charcoal and burning are carcinogenic. for that reason, and because it covers the product with soot and some unpleasant tanginess, i only grill non-drippy meats like prawns directly over hot coals. i do stuff like this duck by indirect heat. i have a long rectangular weber, and i put the coals at one end and the meat at the other end. the fat drops directly on the floor below the meat, and next time i use the barbeque i make the fire in that end to burn off the fat and help ignite the coals. and yet another reason i've heard not to smoke or barbeque meat is that smoked cured meat, like pork sausage and bacon, contains nitrosamines, which are carcinogenic. i'm pretty sure this claim actually has some standing, don't know about the others. an amusing incident i recall was the duncan hines scandal, when it was discovered that the people who make duncan hines cake mix were putting a lot of ethylene dibromide (edb) into the cake mix to suppress weevils. this is a fumigant which is known to be carcinogenic. the guy who represented the company in the press conference defended himself by saying that the risk from eating duncan hines products every day for a year would be equal to the cancer risk from eating two charcoal- broiled steaks. what a great analogy! when i first heard that, my immediate reaction was we should make that a standard unit! one charcoal broiled steak would be equivalent to 0.5 duncans! 
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<instance id="sci.med58914">
<answer instance="sci.med58914" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 could someone please define a "brain abscess" for me? a relative has one near his cerebellum. a brain abscess is an infection deep in the brain substance. it is hard to cure with antibiotics, since it gets walled off, and usually, it needs surgical drainage. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58916">
<answer instance="sci.med58916" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ml> from: libman@hsc.usc.edu (marlena libman) ml> i need advice with a situation which occurred between me and a physican ml> which upset me. ml> my questions: (1) should i continue to have this doctor manage my care? that's easy: no. you wouldn't take your computer into a repair shop where they were rude to you, even if they were competent in their business. why would you take your own body into a "repair shop" where the "repairman" has such a bad attitude? . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58919">
<answer instance="sci.med58919" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine took appoximately 60 cvs sleeping pills, each containing 25mg of diphenhydramine, i think. that's 1500 mg, total. i'm worried, though, about the long-term effects. since he never had his stomach pumped, will he have liver or brain damage? any information would be greatly appreciated. shouldn't have. but he may need to see the shrink about why he wanted to kill himself. depressed people can be succesfully treated gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58921">
<answer instance="sci.med58921" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar. some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet. it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances. the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage, as both are toxic to living cells. all i can say is that i will not consume it. phenylalanine is nothing for you to worry about. it is an amino acid, and everyone uses small quantities of it for protein synthesis in the body. some people have a disease known as phenylketoneurea, and they are missing the enzyme necessary to degrade this compound and eliminate it from the body. for them, it will accumulate in the body, and in high levels this is toxic to growing nerve cells. therefore, it is only a major problem in young children (until around age 10 or so) or women who are pregnant and have this disorder. it used to be a leading cause of brain damage in infants, but now it can be easily detected at birth, and then one must simply avoid comsumption of phenylalanine as a child, or when pregnant. if i remember rightly pku syndrome in infants is about 1/1200 ? they lack two genes. and people who lack one gene are supposed to be 1/56 persons? those with pku have to avoid naturally occuring phenylalanine. and those who only have one gene and underproduce whatever it is they are supposed to be producing are supposed to be less tolerant of aspartame. the methol, formaldahyde thing was supposed to occur with heating? i don't drink it. i figure sugar was made for a reason. to quickly and easily satiate hungry people. if you don't need the calories it's just as easy to drink water. used to drink a six pack a aday of aspartame soda. don't even drink one coke a day when sugared. 
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<instance id="sci.med58922">
<answer instance="sci.med58922" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 one problem is very few scientists are interested in alternative medicine. so gordon, why do you think this is so? probably because most of them come packaged with some absurd theory behind them. e.g. homoeopathy: like cures like. the more you dilute things, the more powerful they get, even if you dilute them so much there is no ingredient but water left. chiropractic: all illness stems from compressions of nerves by misaligned vertebrae. such systems are so patently absurd, that any good they do is accidental and not related to the theory. the only exception is probably herbalism, because scientists recognize the potent drugs that derive from plants and are always interested in seeing if they can find new plants that have active and useful substances. but that isn't what is meant by alternative medicine, usually. if you get into the qi, accupuntunce charts, etc, you are now back to silly theories that probably have nothing to do with why accupuncture works in some cases. perhaps another reason they are reluctant is the rhine experience. rhine was a scientist who wanted to investigate the paranormal and his lab was filled with so much chacanery and fakery that people don't want to be associated with that sort of thing. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58924">
<answer instance="sci.med58924" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 so, why are the scans so expensive, and what can be done to reduce the expense? isn't it just a box with some big magnets, a radio transmitter, and an attached pc? the magnets are huge! good mri sets with big (>1.5 tesla) magnets cost millions of dollars. then, the radiologist wants $400 for reading each scan. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58925">
<answer instance="sci.med58925" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 how does the helium get consumed? i would have thought that failure to contain it perfectly would result in its evaporation .. back into the atmosphere. sounds like a cycle to me. obviously, it takes energy to run the cycle, but i seriously doubt that helium consumption is a resource issue. it's not a cycle. free helium will escape from the atmosphere due to its high velocity. it won't be practical to recover it. it has to be mined. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58926">
<answer instance="sci.med58926" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i looked for diab in my .newsrc and came up with nuthin. anyone have any good sources for where i can read? check out the diabetic mailing list -- a knowledgable, helpful, friendly, voluminous bunch. send email to listserv@pccvm.bitnet, with this line in the body: subscribe diabetic <your name here> also, the vote for misc.health.diabetes, a newsgroup for general discussion of diabetes, is currently underway, and will close on 29 april. from the 2nd cfv, posted to news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, and sci.med, message <1q1jshinn4v1@rodan.uu.net>: to place a vote for the creation of misc.health.diabetes, send an email message to yes@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil to place a vote against creation of misc.health.diabetes, send an email message to no@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil the contents of the message should contain the line "i vote for/against misc.health.diabetes as proposed". email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for/against newsgroup creation as proposed. conditional votes will not be accepted. only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted; mailed replies to this posting will be returned. in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual, only the most recent vote will be counted. one additional cfv will be posted during the course of the vote, along with an acknowledgment of those votes received to date. no information will be supplied as to how people are voting until the final acknowledgment is made at the end, at which time the full vote will be made public. voting will continue until 23:59 gmt, 29 apr 93. votes will not be accepted after this date. any administrative inquiries pertaining to this cfv may be made by email to swkirch@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil the proposed charter appears below. charter: misc.health.diabetes unmoderated 1. the purpose of misc.health.diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management, i.e.: diet, activities, medicine schedules, blood glucose control, exercise, medical breakthroughs, etc. this group addresses the issues of management of both type i (insulin dependent) and type ii (non-insulin dependent) diabetes. both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome. 2. postings to misc.heath.diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only, and are in no way to be construed as medical advice. diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician. -----(end of charter)----- 
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<instance id="sci.med58928">
<answer instance="sci.med58928" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am looking for information on possible causes and long term effects of bone marrow sclerosis. i would also be thankful if anyone reading this newsgroup could list some recognized treatment centers if anything else than massive blood transfusion can be effective. if you plan on a "go to the library"-style reply, please be kind enough to add a list of suggested topics or readings: medicine is not my field. joel malard. joel@cs.mcgill.ca 
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<instance id="sci.med58929">
<answer instance="sci.med58929" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 does anybody know of any information regarding the implementaion of total quality management, quality control, quality assurance in the delivery of health care service. i would appreciate any information. if there is enough interest, i will post the responses. thank you abhin singla ms bioe, mba, md president ac medcomp inc 
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<instance id="sci.med58930">
<answer instance="sci.med58930" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 if you have time to type it in i'd love to have the reference for that paper! thanks! kathleen richards email: karicha@eis.calstate.edu ~sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!~ -dire straits 
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<instance id="sci.med58933">
<answer instance="sci.med58933" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 help! maybe anybody know names of conferences in please help me find any information for next keywords: echocardiography and cardiology+dopler i hawe no informatins on this subjects 2 years becouse i leave in sorry for my bad english! my adress: irina@kiria.kheta.georgia.su 
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<instance id="sci.med58934">
<answer instance="sci.med58934" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a(> can anyone tell me if a bloodcount of 40 when diagnosed as hypoglycemic is a(> dangerous, i.e. indicates a possible pancreatic problem? one dr. says no, the a(> other (not his specialty) says the first is negligent and that another blood a(> test should be done. also, what is a good diet (what has worked) for a hypo- a(> glycemic? tia. a(> a(> a(> anthony anello a(> fermilab a(> batavia, illinois once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the proper channels, you might consider ther following: 1) chelated manganese 25-50mg/day. 2) chelated chromium 400-600mcg/day. 3) increase protein through foods or supplements. 4) avoid supplements/foods high in potassium, calcium, zinc. 5) avoid vit c supplements in excess of 100mg. 6) avoid honey and foods high in simple sugars. 7) enjoy breads, cereals, grains... discuss the above with your health practitioner for compatibility with your body chemistry and safety. --ron-- rosereader 2.00 p003228: beer - it's not just for breakfast anymore. rosemail 2.10 : usenet: rose media - hamilton (416) 575-5363 
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<instance id="sci.med58937">
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 otoh, who are we kidding, the new england medical journal in 1984 ran the heading: "ninety percent of diseases are not treatable by drugs or surgery," which has been echoed by several other reports. no wonder mds are not amused with alternative medicine, since the 20% magic of the "placebo effect" would award alternative practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine... 1: "90% of diseases" is not the same thing as "90% of patients". in a world with one curable disease that strikes 100 people, and nine incurable diseases which strikes one person each, medical science will cure 91% of the patients and report that 90% of diseases have no therapy. 2: a disease would be counted among the 90% untreatable if nothing better than a placebo were known. of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly dispense placebos... 
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<instance id="sci.med58940">
<answer instance="sci.med58940" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods, namely that carcinogens are generated. is this a valid concern? if so, is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures? is it a function of the cooking elements, wood or charcoal vs. lava rocks? i wish to know more. thanks. from the tufts university guide to total nutrition: stanley gershoff, ph.d., dean of tufts university school of nutrition; harperperennial, 1991 (isbn #0-06-272007-4): "the greatest hazard of barbecuing is that the cook will not use enough caution and get burned. some people suggest that the barbecuing itself is dangerous, because the smoke, which is absorbed by the meat, contains benzopyrene, which, in its pure form, has been known to cause cancer in laboratory animals. however, in order to experience the same results, people would have to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time." -rich young (these are not kodak's opinions.) 
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<instance id="sci.med58942">
<answer instance="sci.med58942" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have a friend who has a very pronounced slouch of his upper back. he always walks and sits this way so i have concluded that he is is this a genetic disorder, or is it something that people can correct. i.e. is it just bad posture that can be changed with a bit of will isabelle.rosso@dartmouth.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58943">
<answer instance="sci.med58943" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ks> from: keith@actrix.gen.nz (keith stewart) ks>my wife has become interested through an acquaintance in post-polio syndrome ks>this apparently is not recognised in new zealand and different symptons ( eg ks>chest complaints) are treated separately. does anone have any information i'm not sure that this condition is "recognised" anywhere (in the sense of a disease with diagnostic criteria, clear boundaries between it and other diseases, unique pathologic or physiologic features, etc), but here goes with what many neurologists agree on. post-polio syndrome patients have evidence of motor neuron disease by clinical examination, emg, and muscle biopsy. the abnormalities are mostly chronic (due to old polio) but there is evidence of ongoing deterioration. clinically, the patients complain of declining strength and endurance with everyday motor tasks. musculoskeletal pain is a nearly universal feature that doubtless contributes to the impaired performance. the examination shows muscle weakness and atrophy. the emg shows evidence of old denervation with reinnervation (giant and long-duration motor unit action potentials) *and* evidence of active denervation (fibrillation potentials). the biopsy also shows old denervation with reinnervation (fiber-type grouping) *and* evidence of active denervation (small, angulated fibers with dense oxidative enzyme staining) - but curiously, little or no group atrophy. post-polio patients do not have als. in als, there is clinically evident deterioration from one month to the next. in post-polio, the patients are remarkably stable in objective findings from one year to the next. of course, there are patients who had polio before who develop genuine als, but als is no more common among polio survivors than among people who never had polio. the cause of post-polio syndrome is unknown. there is little evidence that post-polio patients have active polio virus or destructive immunologic response to virus antigen. there is no solid evidence that patients with post-polio have anything different happening to the motor unit (anterior horn cells, motor axons, neuromuscular junctions, and muscle fibers) than patients with old polio who are not complaining of deterioration. both groups can have the same emg and biopsy findings. the reason for these "acute" changes in a "chronic" disease (old polio) is unknown. possibly spinal motor neurons (that have reinnervated huge numbers of muscle fibers) start shedding the load after several there are a couple of clinical features that distinguish post-polio syndrome patients from patients with old polio who deny deterioration. the pps patients are more likely to have had severe polio. the pps patients are *much* more likely to complain of pain. they also tend to score higher on depression scales of neuropsychologic tests. my take on this (i'm sure some will disagree): after recovery from severe polio there can be abnormal loading on muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, and joints, that leads to inflammatory and/or degenerative conditions affecting these structures. the increasing pain, superimposed on the chronic (but unchanging) weakness, leads to progressive impairment of motor performance and adl. i am perhaps biased by personal experience of having never seen a pps patient who was not limited in some way by pain. i do not believe that pps patients have more rapid deterioration of motor units than non-pps patients (i.e., those with old polio of similar severity but without pps complaints). . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58944">
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 dn> from: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (david nye) dn> briefly, this is a condition in which patients who have significant dn> residual weakness from childhood polio notice progression of the dn> weakness as they get older. one theory is that the remaining motor dn> neurons have to work harder and so die sooner. if this theory were true, the muscle biopsy would show group atrophy (evidence of acute loss of enlarged motor units); it doesn't. instead, the biopsy shows scattered, angulated, atrophic fibers. this is more consistent with load-shedding by chronically overworked motor neurons - the neurons survive, at the expense of increasingly denervated muscle. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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<instance id="sci.med58946">
<answer instance="sci.med58946" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ;probably within 50 years, a new type of eugenics will be possible. ;maybe even sooner. we are now mapping the human genome. we will ;then start to work on manipulation of that genome. using genetic ;engineering, we will be able to insert whatever genes we want. ;no breeding, no "hybrids", etc. the ethical question is, should ;we? two past problems with eugenics have been 1) reducing the gene pool and 2) defining the status of the eugenized. inserting genes would not seem to reduce the gene pool unless the inserted genes later became transmissible to progeny. then they may be able to crowd out "garbage genes." this may in the future become possible. even if it does, awareness of the need to maintain the gene pool would hopefully mean provisions will be made for saving genes that may come in handy later. evidently the genes for sickle cell disease in equatorial africa and for diabetes in the hopi *promoted* survival in some conditions. we don't really know what the future may hold for our environment. the reduced wilderness- and disease-survival capacity of our relatively inbred domesticated animals comes to mind. vulcanism, nuclear winter, ice age, meteor impact, new microbiological threats, famine, global warming, etc., etc., are all conceivable. therefore, having as many genes as possible available is a good strategy for species survival. of course, the status of genetically altered individuals would start out as no different than anyone else's. but if we could make "philosopher-kings" with great bodies and long lives, would we (or they) want to give them elevated status? we could. the romans did it with their kings *without* the benefits of such eugenics. the race eventually realized and dealt with the problems which that caused, but for a while, it was a problem. orwell introduced us to the notion of what might happen to persons genetically altered for more menial tasks. but there is nothing new under the sun. we treated slaves the same way for millennia before "1984." i see no inherent problem with gene therapy which avoids at least these 2 problems. humans have always had trouble having the virtue and wisdom to use any power that falls into their hands to good ends all the time. that hasn't stopped the race as a whole yet. many are the civilizations which have died from inability to adapt to environmental change. however, also many are the civilizations which have died from the abuse of their own power. the ones which survived have hopefully learned a lesson from the fates of others, and have survived by making better choices when their turns came. not that i don't think that this gene altering power couldn't wipe us off the face of the earth or cause endless suffering. nuclear power or global warming or whatever could and may still do that, too. the real issue is an issue of wisdom and virtue. i personally don't think man has enough wisdom and virtue to pull this next challenge off any better than he did the for last few. we, as eugenists, may make it, an we may not. if we don't, i hope there are reservoirs of "garbage" people out in some backwater with otherwise long discarded "garbage" genes which will pull us through. i believe that the real problem is and will probably always be the same. man needs to accept input from the great spirit of god to overcome his lacks in the area of knowing how to use the power he has. some men have, and i believe all men may, listen to and obey the still small voice of god in their hearts. this is the way to begin to recieve the wisdom and virtue needed to escape the problems consequent to poor choices. peoples have died out for many reasons. the societies which failed to accept enough input from god to safely use the power they had developed have destroyed themselves, and often others in the process. it is self-evident that the ones which survive today have either accepted enough input from the spirit to use their powers wisely enough to avoid or survive their own mistakes thus far, or else haven't had enough power for long enough. in summary, i would say that the question of whether to use this new technology is really an ancient one. and the answer, in some ways hard, in some ways easy, is the same ancient answer. it isn't the power, it is the sorry for the long post. got carried away. bob (ruegg@med.unc.edu) 
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<instance id="sci.med58947">
<answer instance="sci.med58947" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 *not* imply that all their treatments are ineffective. it *does* imply that those who rely on faulty methodology and reasoning are incapable of discovering *which* treatments are effective and which are not.) to start with, no methodology or form of reasoning is infallible. so there's a question of how much certainty we are willing to pay for in a given context. insistence on too much rigor bogs science down completely and makes progress impossible. (expenditure of sufficiently large sums of money and amounts of time can sometimes overcome this.) on the other hand, with too little rigor much is lost by basing work on results which eventually turn out to be false. there is a morass of studies contradicting other studies and outsiders start saying "you people call this science?" (my opinion, for what it's worth, is that one sees both these phenomena happening simultaneously in some parts of psychology.) some subjective judgement is required to decide on the level of rigor appropriate for a particular investigation. i don't believe it is ever possible to banish subjective judgement from science. my second point, though, is that highly capable people can often make extremely reliable judgements about scientific validity even when using methodology considered inadequate by the usual standards. i think this is true of many scientists and i think it is true of many who approach their discipline in a way that is not generally recognized as scientific. within mathematics, i think there are several examples, especially before the twentieth century. one conspicuous case is that of riemann, who is famous for many theorems he stated but did not prove. (later mathematicians did prove them, of course.) i think that for a good scientist, empirical investigation is often not so much a matter of determining what is true and what's not as it is a matter of convincing other people. (people have proposed lots of incompatible definitions of science here, but i think the ability to objectively convince others of the validity of one's results is an essential element. not that one can necessarily do that at every step of the scientific process, but i think that if one is not moving toward that goal then one is not doing science.) when a person other than a scientist is quite good at what he does and seems to be very successful at it, i think that his judgements are also worthy of respect and that his assertions are well worth further namely, is there really justification for the belief that science is a superior path to truth than non-scientific approaches? admittedly, my question was not at all well posed. a considerable amount of effort in a "serious scholarly investigation" such as i suggested would be required simply to formulate an appropriately specific question to try and answer. the "science" i was thinking of in my question is the actual science currently practiced now in the last decade of the twentieth century. i certainly wasn't thinking of some idealized science or the mere use of "reason and observation." one thing i had in mind in my suggestion was the question as to whether in many cases the subjective judgements of skilled and experienced practitioners might be more reliable than statistical studies. since russell turpin seems to be much more familiar than i am with the study of scientific methodology, perhaps he can tell us if there is any existing research related to this question. in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists, psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects. lady@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu lady@uhunix.bitnet 
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<instance id="sci.med58948">
<answer instance="sci.med58948" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 thanks to tarl neustaedter of ma for kindly letting me know that my reference in prior post to orwell and "1984" should probably have been to huxley and "brave new world." sorry, al. bob (ruegg@med.unc.edu) 
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<instance id="sci.med58949">
<answer instance="sci.med58949" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am 35 and am recovering from a case of chicken pox which i contracted from my 5 year old daughter. i have quite a few of these little puppies all over my bod. at what point am i no longer infectious? my physician's office says when they are all scabbed over. is this true? is there any medications which can promote healing of the pox? speed up healing? please e-mail replies, and thanks in advance. |marc grant | internet: marcbg@feenix.metronet.com | |pob 850472 | amateur radio station n5mei | |richardson, tx 75085| voice/fax: 214-231-3998 | 
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<instance id="sci.med58951">
<answer instance="sci.med58951" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ron roth recommends: "once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the proper channels, you might consider ther following:..." [diet omitted] 1) ron...what do you consider to be "proper channels"...this sounds suspiciously like a blood chemistry...glucose tolerance and the like...suddenly chemistry exists? you know perfectly well that this person can be saved needless trouble and expense with simple muscle testing and hair analysis to diagnose...no "confirm" any aberrant physiology...but then again...maybe that's what you meantby "proper channels." 2) were you able to understand dick king's post that "90% of diseases is not thesame thing as 90% of patients" which was a reply to your inability to critically evaluate the statistic you cited from the new england journal of medicine. couldyou figure out what is implied by the remark "of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly dispense placebos..."? 3) ron...have you ever thought about why you never post in misc.health.alterna- tive...and insist instead upon insinuating your untrained, non-medical, often delusional notions of health and disease into this forum? i suspect from your apparent anger toward mds and heteropathic medicine that there may be an underlying 'father problem'...of course i can confirm this by surrogate muscle testing one of my patients while they ponder my theory to see if one of their previously weak 'indicator' muscles strengthens...or do you have reservations about my unique methods of diagnosis? oh..i forgot what you said in an earlier post.."neither am i concerned of whether or not my study designs meet your or anyone else's criteria of acceptance." john badanes, dc, ca romdas@uclink.berkeley.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med58952">
<answer instance="sci.med58952" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am posting the following for my brother. please post your replies or send him email to his address at the end of his message. thank you. my supervisor is looking for a image analysis software for ms dos. we need something to measure lengths and areas on micrographs. sometime in the future, we may expand to do some densitometry for gels, etc. we've found lots of ads and info for the jandel scientific products: sigmascan and java. but we have not been able to find any competing products. we would appreciate any comments on these products and suggestions / comments on other products we should consider. userdono@mtsg.ubc.ca 
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<instance id="sci.med58953">
<answer instance="sci.med58953" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 as promised, below is a personal critique of a pressure point massager i recently bought from the self care catalog. i am very pleased with the results. the catalog description is as follows: the pressure point massager is an aggressive physical massager that actually kneads the tension out of muscles ... much like a professional shiatsu masseur. the powerful motor drives two counter-rotating "thumbs" that move in one-inch orbits -- releasing tension in the neck, back, legs and arms. pressure point massager a2623 $109 to order or receive a catalog, call (24 hours, 7 days) 1-800-345-3371 or fax at 1-800-345-4021. note: when i ordered the massager, the item number was different, and the price was $179, not $109. when i received it, i glanced thru the newer catalog enclosed with it to see anything was different from the first one. i was quite annoyed to see a $70 difference in price. i called them about it, and the cust rep said that they had switched manufacturers, although it looks and works exactly the same. he told me to go ahead and return the first one and order the cheaper one, using the price difference as a reason for return. in fact, since the newer ones might take a while to ship from the factory (i received this one in 3 days), he told me i could use the one i already have until the new one arrives, then return the old one. very reasonable people. i have long-term neck, shoulder and back pain (if i were a building, i would be described as "structurally unsound :-) ). i have stretches and exercises to do that help, but the problem never really goes away. if, for whatever reason, i do not exercise for a while (illness, not enough time, lazy, etc.), the muscles become quite stiff and painful and, thus, more prone to further strain. even with exercise, i sometimes require physical therapy to get back on track, which 1st requires a doctor visit to get the prescription for p.t. the tension in my neck, if not released, eventually causes a headache (sometimes confused with a sinus headache) over my left eye. when my physical therapist has massaged my neck, and the sub-occipital muscles in particular (the 2 knobby areas near the base of the skull), the headache usually eased within a day, although it hurts like hell to while it is being massaged. i ordered this device because it seemed to be exactly what i was wishing someone would invent --a machine that would massage, not vibrate, my neck and sub-occipital muscles like my physical therapist has done in the past, that i could use by myself. no doctor visit or inconvenient p.t. appts for a week later would be needed to use it. i could get up in the middle of the night and use it, if necessary. i have been using it for about a week or so now, and love it. the base unit is about a 14" x 9" rectangle, about 3-3/4" high, with handles on each side, and it plugs into an average outlet. the two metal "thumbs" are about 1-1/2" in diameter and protrude about 2-1/2" above the base. the thumbs are covered with a gray cloth that is non-removable. they are located more toward one end, rather than centered (see figure below). they move in either clockwise or counter-clockwise directions, depending on which side of the switch is pushed, and are very quiet. it can be used from either side. for instance, the thumbs can be positioned at the base of the neck or the top of the neck, depending on which direction you approach it. | __ _______________ __ | | | | |_______________| | | | | |__| |__| | |_______________________________| for the neck/head, the user varies the amount of pressure used by (if laying down) allowing all or part of the full weight of the head and/or neck to rest on the thumbs. the handles can also be used if sitting or standing, applying pressure with the arms/wrists. since my wrists are also impaired (i'm typing this over an extended period of time), and i don't have someone living with me who can apply it, laying down works well for me. for my back, i sit in a high-backed kitchen chair, position the massager behind me at whatever point i want massaged, and lean back lightly (or not so lightly) against it. the pressure of leaning back holds it in place. if i want to massage the entire spine, i simply move it down a few inches whenever i feel like it. for my back, this machine is far superior to use than the commonly used "home-made" massager of 2 tennis balls taped together (with the balls, position (against a wall or door) them over the spine and move the body up and down against them). the tennis balls are better than nothing, but difficult to use for very long, especially if your quads are not in good shape, and my long hair gets (painfully) in the way if i don't pin it up first. as far as i'm concerned, the easier something like this is to use, the more likely i'll use/do it. if there are multiple considerations/hassles, i'm more likely to not bother with it. not only has this machine helped with my headaches, but my range of motion for my neck and back are greatly increased. the first time i used it on my neck/sub-occipital muscles, however, i overdid it and pressed too hard against it, which resulted in a very tender, almost bruised area for a few days. i laid off it for about 3 days and applied ice, which helped. after that, i was more gradual about applying pressure. at this point, the pain in the sub-occipital area is now minimal while being massaged. i also learned to use very light pressure on my lower back, which is the most vulnerable point for me. it also eased some painful knots of tension between my shoulder blades, although, again, it took a few days of massaging (just a few minutes at a time) to really work it out. i highly recommend this product if you have similar problems, although i cannot vouch for its durability (it seems pretty sturdy), since i've had it such a short time. i plan to use it not only to ease tension, but also to loosen the muscls before exercising (and maybe after, too). i have been ill recently and not able to exercise much for a few weeks, so this was very timely for me. this is the 1st product i've ordered from this company and only recently became aware of it thru a co-worker. the catalog states they have been in business since 1976. it contains quite a few health care products and, while they appear to be more expensive than the average health care catalog products, they also appear to be of much higher quality with more thought put into what they actually do. definitely a step above some other ones i've seen such as "dr. leonards health care catalog" or "mature wisdom". i'm only 37, but have ended up on some geriatric-type mailing lists (no big surprise here :-) ). i consider many of those products to be rip-offs, particularly targeted toward the elderly, with dubious health benefits. i apologize for the length of this, but it's the kind of info _i_ would like to know before ordering something thru the mail. robin coutellier northern telecom, mountain view, ca internet: robin@ntmtv.com uucp:portal!ntmtv!robin 
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<instance id="sci.med58957">
<answer instance="sci.med58957" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 just had the opportunity to watch this flick on a&e -- some 15 years since i saw it last. i was very interested in the technology demonstrated in this film for handling infectious diseases (and similar toxic substances). clearly they "faked" a lot of the computer & robotic technology; certainly at the time it was made most of that was science fiction itself, let alone the idea of a "space germ". quite coincidentally [actually this is what got me wanted to see the movie again] i watched a segment on the otherwise awful _how'd they do that?_ dealing with a disease researcher at the cdc's top lab. there was description of the elaborate security measures taken so that building will never be "cracked" so to speak by man or nature (short of deliberate bombing from the air, perhaps). and the researchers used "spacesuits" similar to that in the film. i'm curious what people think about this film -- short of "silly". is such a facility technically feasible today? as far as the plot, and the crystalline structure that is not life as we know it, that's a whole 'nother argument for rec.arts.sf.tech or something. | next: a waco update ... an ohio prison update ... a bosnia update ... a | | russian update ... an abortion update ... and a congressional update ... | | here on snn: the standoff news network. all news, all standoff, all day | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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<instance id="sci.med58961">
<answer instance="sci.med58961" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 following a series of miscarriages, my wife was given a transfusion of my white cells. (the theory as i understand it is that there is some kind of immune blocking that prevents the body from attacking the pregnancy as it normally would a "foreign" body. where this blocking is deficient, the body evicts the "intruder", resulting in a miscarriage. the white cells apparently enhance the blocking capability.) following the transfusion, she successfully carried the next pregnancy to term, and jake is now an active 9 month-old who cannot wait to walk. we're now thinking about having another child, but no one (including the obgyn who supervised the first transfusion) really seems to know whether or not the transfusion process needs to be repeated for successive is there anyone in net-land who has experience with this? thanks...gene (and jane and jake) p.s. i've also posted this in misc.kids. 
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<instance id="sci.med58964">
<answer instance="sci.med58964" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife and i are in the process of selecting a pediatrician for our first child (due june 15th). we interviewed a young doctor last week and were very impressed with her. however, i discovered that she is actually not an medical doctor (m.d.) but rather a "doctor of osteopathy" (d.o.). what's the difference? i believe the pediatrician *i* went to for many years was a d.o. and he didn't seem different from any other doctor i've seen over the years. my dictionary says that osteopathy is "a medical therapy that emphasizes manipulative techniques for correcting somatic abnormalities thought to cause disease and inhibit recovery." jeez, this sounds like chiropractic. i remember getting shots and medicine from *my* pediatrician d.o., and don't remember any "manipulative techniques". perhaps someone could enlighten me as to the real, practical difference between an m.d. and a d.o. also, i'm interesting in hearing any opinions on choosing a pediatrician who follows one or the other medical philosophy. readers of sci.med: please respond directly to sbrenner@attmail.com; i do not read this group regularly and probably won't see your response if you just post it here. sorry for the cross-posting, but i'm hoping there's some expertise here. a t d h v a a n n k c s e scott d. brenner at&t consumer communications services sbrenner@attmail.com basking ridge, new jersey 
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<instance id="sci.med58965">
<answer instance="sci.med58965" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 this reminds me of the last graham kerr cooking show i saw. today he smoked meat on the stovetop in a big pot! he used a strange technique i'd never seen before. he took a big pot with lid, and placed a tray in it made from aluminum foil. the tray was about the size and shape of a typical coffee-table ash tray, made by crumpling a sheet of foil around the edges. in the tray, he placed a couple spoonfuls of brown sugar, a similar quantity of brown rice (he said any rice will do), the contents of two teabags of earl grey tea, and a few cloves. on top of this was placed an ordinary aluminum basket-type steamer, with two chicken breasts in it. the lid was put on, and the whole assembly went on the stovetop at high heat for 10 or 12 minutes. later, he removed what looked like smoked chicken breasts. what surprises and concerns me are: 1) no wood chips. where does the smoke flavor come from? 2) about 5 or 10 years ago, i remember hearing that carmel color (obtained by caramelizing sugar -- a common coloring and flavoring agent) had been found to be carcinogenic. i believe they injected it under the skin of rats, or something. if the results were conclusive, caramel color would not be legal in the u.s., yet it is still being used. was the initial research result found to be incorrect, or what? 3) about 5 or 10 years ago, i remember earl grey tea being implicated as carcinogenic, because it contains oil of bergamot (an extract from the skin of a type of citrus fruit). does anyone know whatever happened with that story? if it were carcinogenic, earl grey tea could not have it as an additive, yet it apparently continues to do wrt natural wood smoke (i've smoking a duck right now, as it happens), i've noticed that a heavily-smoked food item will have an unpleasant tangy taste when eaten directly out of the smoker if the smoke has only recently stopped flowing. i find the best taste to be had by using dry wood chips, getting lots of smoke right up at the beginning of the cooking process, then slowly barbequing for hours and hours without adding additional wood chips. my theory is that the unpleasant tangy molecules are low-molecular weight stuff, like terpenes, and that the smoky flavor molecules are some sort of larger molecule more similar to tar. the long barbeque time after the initial intensive smoke drives off the low-molecular weight stuff, just leaving the flavor behind. does anyone know if my theory is correct? i also remember hearing that the combustion products of fat dripping on the charcoal and burning are carcinogenic. for that reason, and because it covers the product with soot and some unpleasant tanginess, i only grill non-drippy meats like prawns directly over hot coals. i do stuff like this duck by indirect heat. i have a long rectangular weber, and i put the coals at one end and the meat at the other end. the fat drops directly on the floor below the meat, and next time i use the barbeque i make the fire in that end to burn off the fat and help ignite the coals. and yet another reason i've heard not to smoke or barbeque meat is that smoked cured meat, like pork sausage and bacon, contains nitrosamines, which are carcinogenic. i'm pretty sure this claim actually has some standing, don't know about the others. an amusing incident i recall was the duncan hines scandal, when it was discovered that the people who make duncan hines cake mix were putting a lot of ethylene dibromide (edb) into the cake mix to suppress weevils. this is a fumigant which is known to be carcinogenic. the guy who represented the company in the press conference defended himself by saying that the risk from eating duncan hines products every day for a year would be equal to the cancer risk from eating two charcoal- broiled steaks. what a great analogy! when i first heard that, my immediate reaction was we should make that a standard unit! one charcoal broiled steak would be equivalent to 0.5 duncans! i don't understand the assumption that because something is found to be carcinogenic that "it would not be legal in the u.s.". i think that naturally occuring substances (excluding "controlled" substances) are pretty much unregulated in terms of their use as food, food additives or other "consumption". it's only when the chemists concoct (sp?) an ingredient that it falls under fda regulations. otherwise, if they really looked closely they would find a reason to ban almost everything. how in the world do you suppose it's legal to "consume" tobacco products (which probably should be banned)? dave allen space science & engr. ctr. uw-madison 
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<instance id="sci.med58966">
<answer instance="sci.med58966" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there an effect where the doctor believes so strongly in a medicine that he/she sees improvement where the is none or sees more improvement than there is? if so, what is this effect called? is there a reverse of the above effect where the doctor doesn't believe in a medicine and then sees less improvement than there is? what would this effect be called? have these effects ever been studied? how common are these effects? thank you in advance for all replies. these effects are a very real concern in conducting studies of new treatments. researchers try to limit this kind of effect by performing studies that are "blind" in various ways. some of these are: o the subjects of the study do not know whether they receive a placebo or the test treatment, i.e., whether they are in the control group or the test group. o those administering the treatment do not know which subjects receive a placebo or the test treatment. o those evaluating individual results do not know which subjects receive a placebo or the test treatment. obviously, at the point at which the data is analyzed, one has to differentiate the test group from the control group. but the analysis is quasi-public: the researcher describes it and presents the data on which it is based so that others can verify it. it is worth noting that in biological studies where the subjects are animals, such as mice, there were many cases of skewed results because those who performed the study did not "blind" themselves. it is not considered so important to make mice more ignorant than they already are, though it is important that in all respects except the one tested, the control and test groups are treated alike. 
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<instance id="sci.med58967">
<answer instance="sci.med58967" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there a right-eye dominance (eyedness?) as there is an overall right-handedness in the population? i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other? if so, what kinds of percentages can be attached to this? there is eye dominance same as handedness (and usually for the same side). it has nothing to do with refractive error, however. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58969">
<answer instance="sci.med58969" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 newsgroups: sci.med path: news.larc.nasa.gov!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!think.com!hsdndev!spdcc!dyer organization: s.p. dyer computer consulting, cambridge ma references: <20996.3049.uupcb@factory.com> <79727@cup.portal.com> lines: 18 i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet. the theory -- which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results -- is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people. i don't remember any connection being made with seizures, but it certainly couldn't hurt to try an all-natural diet. yeah, the "feingold diet" is a load of crap. children diagnosed with add who are placed on this diet show no improvement in their intellectual and social skills, which in fact continue to decline. of course, the parents who are enthusiastic about this approach lap it up at the expense of their children's development. so much for the value of "interesting anecdotal results". people will believe anything if they want to. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer thanks for all the interest in this problem of mine. i don't think it is a reaction to sugar or junk food per se since kathryn has never shown any signs of hyperactivity or changes in behavior in response to food. she has always been very calm and dare i say, a neat, smart kid. the fact that this happened while eating two sugar coated cereals made by kellog's makes me think she might be having an allergic reaction to something in the coating or the cereals. of the four of us in our immediate family, kathryn shows the least signs of the hay fever, running nose, itchy eyes, etc. but we have a lot of allergies in our family history including some weird food allergies - nuts, mushrooms. anyway, our next trip is to an endocrinologist to check out the body chemistry. but so far, no more sugar coated cereals and no more seizures either. every day that goes by without one makes me heave a sigh of relief. thanks again. sharon paulson s.s.paulson@larc.nasa.gov nasa langley research center bldg. 1192d, mailstop 156 work: (804) 864-2241 hampton, virginia. 23681 home: (804) 596-2362 
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<instance id="sci.med58970">
<answer instance="sci.med58970" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife cannot donate blood because she has been to a malarial region in the past three years. in fact, she tried to have her bone marrow typed and they wouldn't even do that! why? the fda, i believe. rules say no blood or blood products donations from anyone who has been in a malarial area for 3 years. i was a platelet donor until my thailand trip and my blood bank was very disappointed to find out they couldn't use me for 3 years. when the secretary of state asked me if i wanted to donate my organs i said no because i figured that no one would want them given my history. was i correct? not necessarily. the same rules may not apply to organ donation as to blood donation. in fact, i'm sure they don't. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58971">
<answer instance="sci.med58971" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i've been invited to spend a couple weeks this summer rafting down the mississippi. my journey partners want to live off of river water and catfish along the route. should i have any concerns about pollution or health risks in doing this? you'd have to purify the river water first. i'm not sure how practical that is with the mississippi. you'd better check with health agencies along the way to see if there are toxic chemicals in the river. if it is just microorganisms, those can be filtered or killed, but you may need activated charcoal or other means to purify from chemicals. better be same than sorry. obviously, drinking the river without processing it is likely to make you sick from bacteria and parasites. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med58976">
<answer instance="sci.med58976" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a bit more than a year ago, a hernia in my right groin was discovered. it had produced a dull pain in that area. the hernia was repaired using the least intrusive (orthoscopic?) method and a "plug and patch". the doctor considered the procedure a success. a few months later the same pain returned. the doctor said that he could find nothing wrong in the area of the hernia repair. now the pain occurs more often. my gp couldn't identify any specific problem. the surgen who performed the original procedure now says that yes there is a "new" hernia in the same area and he said that he has to cut into the area for the repair this time. my question to the net: is there a nonintrusive method to determine if in fact there is a hernia or if the pain is from something else? steve heffner 
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<instance id="sci.med58978">
<answer instance="sci.med58978" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there a right-eye dominance (eyedness?) as there is an overall right-handedness in the population? i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other? if so, what kinds of percentages can be attached to this? there is eye dominance same as handedness (and usually for the same side). it has nothing to do with refractive error, however. i recall reading/seeing that former baseball star chris chambliss' hitting abilities were (in part) attributed to a combination of left-handedness & right-eye dominance. 
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<instance id="sci.med58979">
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 stuff deleted ... have to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time." i have to confess that this is one of my few unfulfilled ambitions. no matter how much i eat, it still seems realistic. don mackie - his opinion 
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<instance id="sci.med58980">
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 situation. qa activities are a routine part of every hospital's administrative function and are required by accreditation agencies. are even entire publications devoted to qa issues. indeed. i spend about 60% of my time dealing with quality stuff. it is a hot number. two journals worth looking at are:- quality review bulletin. pub:joint commission on accreditation of healthcare organizations, one renaissance boulevard, oakbrook terrace, il 60181 quality in health care. bmj publishing group, box no. 560b, kennebunkport, me 04046 don mackie - his opinions um anesthesiology will disavow 
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<instance id="sci.med58981">
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 i think that part of the problem is that i have proposed a definition of science that i intended to be interpreted broadly and that lee lady has interpreted fairly narrowly. my definition is this: science is the investigation of the empirical that avoids mistakes in reasoning and methodology discovered from previous i don't think that science should be defined in a way that some of the activities that lead to really important science --- namely thinking and informal exploration --- are not recognized as scientific work. unless one classifies "thinking and informal exploration" as a mistake, they fall under my definition. i hope no one would consider speculation, thinking, and informal exploration as seriously, i'm not sure whether i misjudged you or not, in one respect. i still have a major problem, though, with your insistence that science is mainly about avoiding mistakes. ... here is where i think we are talking at cross-purposes. it is not clear to me that the kind of definition i have proposed should be taken as describing what "science is mainly about." consider, for example, a definition of invertebrates as all animals lacking a backbone. this fairly tells what is an invertebrate and what is not an invertebrate, but it hardly tells you what invertebrates are all about. one can read this definition and still not know that 95% of all animal species are invertebrates, that invertebrates possess a remarkably broad range of form, that some invertebrate groups -- such as insects and nematodes -- are ubiquitous in all ecosystems, etc. in short, knowing the definition of invertebrates does *not* tell one what they are "mainly about." the misunderstanding here is my fault. i did not give sufficient context for people to understand my proposed definition. okay, so let's see if we agree on this: first of all, there are degrees of certainty. it might be appropriate, for instance, to demand carefully controlled trials before we accept as absolute scientific truth (to the extent that there is any such thing) the effectiveness of a certain treatment. on the other hand, highly favorable clinical experience, even if uncontrolled, can be adequate to justify a *preliminary* judgement that a treatment is useful. ... secondly, it makes sense to be more tolerant in our standards of evidence for a pronounced effect than for one that is marginal. i agree on both counts. as an example of the second, it would only take a few cases of curing rabies to convince most veterinarians that a treatment was effective, despite a lack of controls. as to the first, i do not think it is useful to talk about "absolute scientific truth." i think it is more useful to talk about the kinds of evidence that various claims have and the kinds of evidence in particular fields that in the past have proven faulty or reliable. the latter is obviously a matter of degree, and in each field, practitioners try to discover the relevance of different kinds of evidence. one of the primary mistakes that marks the advocacy of an idea as psuedo-science is that the advocacy lacks any sense of proportion regarding the kinds of evidence related to the proposed claim, the kinds of evidence that are actually relevant to it, and the historical reasons in the field that certain kinds of evidence are given more weight than others. it is perfectly alright to speculate. i have read quite a few refereed papers that speculated left and right. but the authors were careful to identify the notions as speculative, to list what little evidence was presently available for them, and to describe how research could proceed to either put the notion on more firm footing or to uncover its problems. often what distinguishes whether a paper of this sort passes muster is the thoughtfulness with which the author sets the context and paves the way for future work. (it is in this area that many proponents of speculative ideas fail.) the folks over in sci.psychology have a hundred and one excuses not to make this simple test. they claim that only an elaborate outcome study will be satisfactory --- a study of the sort that nlp practitioners, many of whom make a barely marginal living from their practice, can ill afford to do. (most of them are also just plain not interested, because the whole idea seems frivolous. and since they're not part of the scientific establishment, they have no tangible rewards to gain from scientific acceptance.) i think a lot of scientists steer away from things that -- deserving or not -- garner a patina of kookiness. when proponents of some practice see no value in more careful investigation of that practice, that sets alarms ringing in many researchers' minds. this is unfortunate, because there is undoubtedly some intersection between things that are worth investigating and things that are advocated by those who seem careless or unreasonable in their advocacy. on the other hand, i can understand why many scientists would just as soon select other directions for research. as gordon banks has pointed out, no one wants to become this generation's rhine. one academic in sci.psychology said that it would be completely unscientific for him to test the phobia cure since it hasn't been described in a scientific journal. ... i think this is absurd. actually, at least one fairly careful academic study has been done (with favorable results), but it's apparently not acceptable because it's a doctoral dissertation and not published in a refereed journal. i wonder why the results were not published. in my field, dissertation results are typically summarized in papers that are submitted to journals. often the papers are accepted for publication before the dissertation is finished. (this certainly eases one's defense.) finally, i hope lee lady will forgive me from commenting either on nlp or the discussion of it in sci.psychology. i know little about either and so have nothing to offer. 
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<instance id="sci.med58986">
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 k(> k(> rr> otoh, who are we kidding, the new england medical journal in 1984 k(> rr> ran the heading: "ninety percent of diseases are not treatable by k(> rr> drugs or surgery," which has been echoed by several other reports. k(> rr> no wonder mds are not amused with alternative medicine, since k(> rr> the 20% magic of the "placebo effect" would award alternative k(> rr> practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine... k(> k(> 1: "90% of diseases" is not the same thing as "90% of patients". k(> k(> in a world with one curable disease that strikes 100 people, and nine k(> incurable diseases which strikes one person each, medical science will cure k(> 91% of the patients and report that 90% of diseases have no therapy. k(> k(> 2: a disease would be counted among the 90% untreatable if nothing better than k(> a placebo were known. of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly k(> dispense placebos... k(> k(> -dk hmmm... even *without* the ;-) at the end, i didn't think anyone was going to take the mathematics or statistics of my post seriously. i only hope that you had the same thing in mind with your post, otherwise you would need at least two ;-)'s at the end to help anyone understand your calculations above... --ron-- rosereader 2.00 p003228: this mind intentionally left blank. rosemail 2.10 : usenet: rose media - hamilton (416) 575-5363 
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<instance id="sci.med58989">
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 my comments about the feingold diet have no relevance to your daughter's purported frostedflakes-related seizures. i can't imagine why you included it. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med58990">
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 is there a right-eye dominance (eyedness?) as there is an overall right-handedness in the population? i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other? if so, what kinds of percentages can be attached to this? i have a long sighted eye and a short sighted eye. my right eye tends to cut out when i look at distant things, my left eye when i am close up. i had specs to balance things up a bit but could do without them. i thought that, one way or another, i would always be able to see clearly. unfortunately middle age is rearing its ugly head and i can no longer see close up objects clearly. maybe it's just that my arms are getting shorter :-) the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch@swell.actrix.gen.nz pat churchill, wellington new zealand 
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<instance id="sci.med58992">
<answer instance="sci.med58992" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have heard that epileptic patients go into seizures if they eat anything with msg added. this may have something to do with the excitotoxicity of neurons. 
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<instance id="sci.med58994">
<answer instance="sci.med58994" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 as nobody in the food industry has even bothered to address my previous question "why do you need to put msg in almost every food?" i must assume that my wife's answer is closer to the truth than i hoped it was. she believes that msg is added to food to cause people to eat more of it and not quit when they shoud be sated. to put it a different way, she believes that for some people msg causes them to act toward food like an addict. (eat all the chips, chow down on several packages of noodle soup .... you get the idea! } if she is right, then the moral and ethical standards of the food, chemical and regulatory groups need to be addressed!!! can msg be considered a conditioning substance (not addictive but sort of habit forming) ? this brings up a side question of mine. i have noticed that cats (my children's and my parent's) seem to fixate on a particular brand of pet food. the cat will eat any product within one brand and not any other brand. i have wondered if this is not a case of preference, but, some sort of chemical training or addiction. my questions, for the net, are: does the fda regulate the contents of pet food? is it allowed for pet food to contain addictive or conditioning substances? is msg put in pet food? i speak for myself and not motorola walter lundby 
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<instance id="sci.med58995">
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 i think that's the correct spelling.. the proper spelling is kirlian. it was an effect discoverd by s. kirlian, a soviet film developer in 1939. as i recall, the coronas visible are ascribed to static discharges and chemical reactions between the organic material and the silver halides in the films. tarl neustaedter stratus computer tarl@sw.stratus.com marlboro, mass. disclaimer: my employer is not responsible for my opinions. 
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<instance id="sci.med58996">
<answer instance="sci.med58996" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i recently had a case of shingles and my doctors wanted to give me intravenous acyclovir. it was a pain finding iv sites in my arms...can i have some facts about how advantageous it is to give intravenous antibiotics rather than oral? 
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<instance id="sci.med58997">
<answer instance="sci.med58997" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 betty harvey writes, i am not a researcher or a medical person but it amazes me that when they can't find a scientific or a known fact they automatically assume that the reaction is psychological. it is mind boggling. this, simply stated, is a result of the bankrupt ethics in the healthcare and scientific medicine industries. america is fed up with the massive waste and fraud that is costing us 15% of our gnp to support these industries, while delivering marginal health care to the community. unfortunately, the "clinton plan", in whatever form it takes, will probably cost us an even greater sum. bleah. 
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<instance id="sci.med58999">
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 i seem to recall that there was an article in radio electronics about this subject. in fact i have a copy of the article in front of me, but i can't find anywhere in the article a refrence as to what month it was in. the system they describe uses an automobile ignition coil for the high voltage. the article even includes some information on what kind of film to use and where to get it. hope this helps. joseph m. krzeszewski ski@wpi.wpi.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59000">
<answer instance="sci.med59000" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 as a physician, i almost never get sick: usually, when something horrendous is going around, i either don't get it at all or get a very mild case. when i do get really sick, it is always something unusual. this was not the situation when i was in medical school, particularly on pediatrics.... pediatrics for me was three solid months of illness, and i had a temp of 104 when i took the final exam! i think what happens is that during training, and beyond, we are constantly exposed to new things, and we have the usual reactions to them, so that later on, when challenged with something, it is more likely a re-exposure for us, so we deal with it well and get a mild illness. this is also commonly seen in new teachers. the first few years, they're sick a lot, but gradually seem to build up immunities to almost everything common. come to think of it, i was about my healthiest when i was working in a pathogens lab, exposed to who-knows-what all the time. pre-osha, of course. kay klier biology dept uni 
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<instance id="sci.med59003">
<answer instance="sci.med59003" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 as nobody in the food industry has even bothered to address my previous question "why do you need to put msg in almost every food?" i must assume that my wife's answer is closer to the truth than i hoped it was. i don't mean to be disrespectful to your concerns, but it seems to me that you're getting all wound up in a non-issue. as many knowledgeable people have pointed out, msg is a naturally occurring substance in a lot, if not most, foods. when food manufacturers add it to a preparation, they do so because it's a known flavor enhancer. your wife's theory, that msg is added to food to stimulate appetite, may well be true. but i don't believe it's always the reason it's added. people are (largely, for the most part) in charge of their own appetites. children's and my parent's) seem to fixate on a particular brand of pet food. the cat will eat any product within one brand and not any other brand. i have wondered if this is not a case of preference, but, some sort of chemical training or addiction. my questions, for the net, are: does the fda regulate the contents of pet food? is it allowed for pet food to contain addictive or conditioning substances? is msg put in pet food? you don't know much about cats, do you? cats will take advantage of you. resign yourself: you will never understand a cat. their tastes are whimsical. i also suspect, though it's been a while since i've checked ingredients on commercial cat food, that there are much more stringent requirements on pet food additives than human. see, the fda has this stupid idea that human beings have the intelligence to look out after their own interests. barbara, wondering how her cat would take care of *her* 
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<instance id="sci.med59004">
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 [newsgroups: m.h.a added, followups set to most appropriate groups.] in <1993apr19.205615.1013@unlv.edu> todamhyp@charles.unlv.edu (brian m. i am looking for any information/supplies that will allow do-it-yourselfers to take krillean pictures. (it's "kirlian". "krillean" pictures are portraits of tiny shrimp. :) one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe (as we know it) has its own energy signature. i think it's safe to say that anything that's not at 0 degrees kelvin will have its own "energy signature" -- the interesting questions are what kind of energy, and what it signifies. i'd check places like edmund scientific (are they still in business?) -- or i wonder if you can find ex-soviet union equipment for sale somewhere in the relcom.* hierarchy. some expansion on kirlian photography: from the credulous side: [stanway, andrew, _alternative medicine: a guide to natural therapies_, isbn 0-14-008561-0, new york: viking penguin, 1986, p211, p188. a not-overly critical but still useful overview of 32 alternative health therapies.] ...the russian engineer semyon kirlian and his wife valentina during the 1950s. using alternating currents of high frequency to 'illuminate' their subjects, they photographed them. they found that if an object was a good conductor (such as a metal) the picture showed only its surface, while the pictures of poor conductors showed the inner structure of the object even if it were optically opaque. they found too that these high frequency pictures could distinguish between dead and living objects. dead ones had a constant outline whilst living ones were subject to changes. the object's life activity was also visible in highly variable colour patterns. high frequency photography has now been practised for twenty years in the soviet union but only a few people in the west have taken it up seriously. professor douglas dean in new york and professor philips at washington university in st louis have produced kirlian photographs and others have been produced in brazil, austria and germany. using kirlian photography it is possible to show an aura around people's fingers, notably around those of healers who are concentrating on healing someone. normally, blue and white rays emanate from the fingers but, when a subject becomes angry or excited, the aura turns red and spotty. the soviets are now using kirlian photography to diagnose diseases which cannot be diagnosed by any other method. they argue that in most illnesses there is a preclinical stage during which the person isn't actually ill but is about to be. they claim to be able to foretell a disease by photographing its preclinical phase. but the most exciting phenomenon illustrated by kirlian photography is the phantom effect. during high frequency photography of a leaf from which a part had been cut, the photograph gave a complete picture of the leaf with the removed part showing up faintly. this is extremely important because it backs up the experiences of psychics who can 'see' the legs of amputees as if they were still there. the important thing about the kirlian phantoms though is that the electromagnetic pattern can't possibly represent a secondary phenomenon -- or the field would vanish when the piece of leaf or leg vanished. the energy grid contained in a living object must therefore be far more significant than the actual object itself. kirlian photography has shown how water mentally 'charged' by a healer has a much richer energy field around it than ordinary water... from the incredulous side: [macrobert, alan, "reality shopping; a consumer's guide to new age hokum.", _whole earth review_, autumn 1986, vnon4 p4(11). an excellent article providing common-sense guidelines for evaluating paranormal claims, and some of the author's favorite examples of hokum.] the crank usually works in isolation from everyone else in his field of study, making grand discoveries in his basement. many paranormal movements can be traced back to such people -- kirlian photography, for instance. if you pump high-voltage electricity into anything it will emit glowing sparks, common knowledge to electrical workers and hobbyists for a century. it took a lone basement crank to declare that the sparks represent some sort of spiritual aura. in fact, kirlian photography was subjected to rigorous testing by physicists john o. pehek, harry j. kyler, and david l. faust, who reported their findings in the october 15, 1976, issue of science. their conclusion: the variations observed in kirlian photographs are due solely to moisture on the surface of the body and not to mysterious "auras" or even necessarily to changes in mood or mental state. nevertheless, television shows, magazines, and books (many by famous parapsychologists) continue to promote kirlian photography as proof of the unknown. peter kaminski kaminski@netcom.com 
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 what exactly are knots, those sore, tight spots in your muscles? in certain kinds of massage, people try and break up these knots; it this really helpful? ho leung ng ng4@husc.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59007">
<answer instance="sci.med59007" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 mark mcwiggins <markmc@halcyon.com> reminds us: mm> also, don't forget that it's better for your health mm> to enjoy your steak than to resent your sprouts ... yes! i call this notion "psychological health food" and, in fact, have determined that the four food groups are ice cream, pizza, barbecue, and chocolate. ideally, every meal should contain something from at least two of these four groups. food does serve functions other than nutrition, and one of them is keeping the organism happy and thus aiding its immune and i didn't spend a million bucks commissioning a study that told me to redraw my silly little pyramid in different colors and with a friendlier typeface, either. (ref: consumer reports' back page--one of the best things ever to turn up there.) rich young <young@serum.kodak.com> writes of one of six impossible things: ry> to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time." donald mackie <donald_mackie@med.umich.edu> confesses: dm> i have to confess that this is one of my few unfulfilled ambitions. dm> no matter how much i eat, it still seems realistic. yeah, i want to try one of those 42oz steaks (cooked over applewood) at wally's wolf lodge inn in coeur d'alene. that seems quite unrealistic--unrealistically small. and a few slabs of ribs from the east texas smoker (rip, again) in louisville is not at all unrealistic either. what say we have a rec.food.cooking dinner at the moonlite bar-b-que inn in owensboro? (it's all you can eat including lamb ribs & mutton for about $10.) we could invite julie kangas as guest of honor and see if the moonlite's very hot sauce is too hot for her. (it is too hot for me, and i don't say that very often.) and she could bring ice cream with crushed dried chiltepins for dessert. and we could see if there is such a thing as an "unrealistically large quantity" of barbecue--the owner of the moonlite estimates that the owensboro restaurants serve a hundred thousand pounds of meat a week in the summer, and forty thousand in the winter--in a town of 50 000 or so. two pounds per person per week? again, sure sounds unrealistic to me--thats just too meager to be healthy. ~ kiran (now a two-pound slab of ribs a day, that's realistic.) fuzzy pink niven's law: never waste calories. potato chips, candy, whipped cream, or hot fudge sundae consumption may involve you, your dietician, your wardrobe, and other factors. but fuzzy pink's law implies: don't eat soggy potato chips, or cheap candy, or fake whipped cream, or an inferior hot fudge sundae. larry niven, niven's laws, n-space 
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<instance id="sci.med59008">
<answer instance="sci.med59008" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my 6 year son is so plagued. lots of vaseline up his nose each night seems to keep it under control. but let him get bopped there, and he'll recur for days! also allergies, colds, dry air all seem to contribute. but again, the vaseline, or a&d ointment, or neosporin all seem to keep them from recurring. if you can get it, you might want to try a canadian over-the-counter product called secaris, which is a water-soluble gel. compared to vaseline or other greasy ointments, secaris seems more compatible with the moisture that's already there. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="sci.med59011">
<answer instance="sci.med59011" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 [reply to geb@cs.pitt.edu (gordon banks)] i believe it is illegal for a residency to discriminate against fmgs. is that true? i know some that won't even interview fmgs. i think a case could be made that this is discriminatory, particularly if an applicant had good board scores and recommendations but wasn't offered an interview, but i don't know if it has ever gone to court. david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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<instance id="sci.med59012">
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 [reply to todamhyp@charles.unlv.edu (brian m. huey)] i think that's the correct spelling.. the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed, and depending on what type of object it is, the spikes or energy patterns will vary. one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe (as we know it) has its own energy signature. there turned out to be a very simple, conventional explanation for the phenomenon. i can't recall the details, but i believe it had to do with the object between the plates altering the field because of purely mechanical properties like capacitance. the "aura" was caused by direct exposure of the film from variations in field strength. david nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). midelfort clinic, eau claire wi this is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- bertrand russell 
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<instance id="sci.med59013">
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 we will be holding a bake and craft sale at communiversity in princeton on nassau street, saturday april 24th 12-4 p.m. to benefit the recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation, a nonprofit foundation established to encourage research toward a cure for recurrent respiratory papillomatosis. our three year old daughter suffers from this disease. below is a press release that appeared in local newspapers. hope you can join us. on saturday, april 24 as part of communiversity in princeton, a local family will be having a bake and craft sale to raise money for and create public awareness about a rare disease called recurrent respiratory papillomatosis. bill and marlene stern's daughter lindsay is afflicted with this disease characterized by tumors attacking the inside of the larynx, vocal cords and trachea. caused by a virus, the tumors grow, block the air passages and would lead to death from suffocation without continual surgery to remove the growths. three year old lindsay has undergone 11 operations thus far since her diagnosis last year and faces the prospect of over a hundred operations throughout her even though the disease is hardly a household word, it has affected the lives of enough people to inspire the formation of the recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation, a non-profit foundation whose goals are to provide support for patients and families by networking patients and publishing a newsletter, enhance awareness of rrp at the local and national level, and aid in the prevention, cure, and treatment. since medical researchers know that the virus causing the disease is similar to those viruses causing warts, they feel a cure would be within reach if money were available for research. because rrp is rare, it not only gets scant attention but also paltry funds to search for a cure. part of the rrp foundation's mission is to change that. anyone interested in contributing items to the bake and craft sale, please call marlene or bill at 609-890-0502. monetary donations can be made at the foundation's booth during communiversity, april 24th, 12 to 4 p.m., in downtown princeton, or sent directly to: the recurrent respiratory foundation 50 wesleyan drive hamilton sq., nj 08690. thanks mstern@lindsay.princeton.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59014">
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 it would be nice to think that individuals can somehow 'beat the system' and like a space explorer, boldly go where no man has gone before and return with a prize cure. unfortunately, too often the prize is limited and the efficacy of the 'cure' questionable when applied to all this applies to both medical researchers and non-medical individuals. just because it appears in an obscure journal and may be of some use does not make the next cure-all. what about the dozens of individuals who have courageously participated in clinical trials? did they have any guarentee of cures? are they any less because they didn't trumpet their story all over the world? as a parting note, wasn't there some studies done on gingko seeds for meniere's? (to the original poster : what about trying for a trial of that? it's probably not a final answer but it certainly may alleviate some of the discomfort. and you'd be helping answer the question for future sufferers.) 
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<instance id="sci.med59016">
<answer instance="sci.med59016" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 it is not true that dermatologists gave not reached the laser age, in fact, lasers in dermatological surgery is a very new and exciting field. it probably won't be effective in tinea pedis because the laser is usually a superficial burn (to avoid any deeper damage). limited tinea pedis can be cured albeit sometimes slowly by topical antifungals as well as systemic medication i.e. tablets. finally, a self-diagnosis is not always reliable, lichen simplex chronicus can look like a fungal infection and requires very different treatment. 
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<answer instance="sci.med59017" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 is there a right-eye dominance (eyedness?) as there is an overall right-handedness in the population? i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other? if so, what kinds of percentages can be attached to this? there is eye dominance same as handedness (and usually for the same side). it has nothing to do with refractive error, however. i recall reading/seeing that former baseball star chris chambliss' hitting abilities were (in part) attributed to a combination of left-handedness & right-eye dominance. i was part of a study a few years ago at the university of arizona to see whether cross dominant individuals (those with a particular handedness but who had dominance in the opposite eye) were better hitters than those with same side dominance of hand and eye. i was picked from my softball class because i was cross dominant (right hand, left eye) which put me in a small minority (and the grad student was trying to get an equal number of cross dominant and same side dominant people). to control the study, she used a pitching machine - fast pitch. since i was used to slow pitch, i didn't come close (actually i think i foul tipped a few) to hitting the ball. if there were a lot of people like me in her study (i.e., those who can't hit fast pitch, or are not used to hitting off a machine), i would seriously question the results of that study!! i think there have been some studies of major league players (across a fairly large cross section of players) to test whether eye dominance being the same or opposite side was "better" - but i don't know the results. (the woman who ran the study i was in said that there was a higher incidence of crossdominance in major leaguers than across the general population - but i'm not sure whether i'd believe her.) janice rathmann 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59020">
<answer instance="sci.med59020" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 this is the third and final call for votes for the creation of the newsgroup misc.health.diabetes. a mass acknowledgement of valid votes received as of april 19th 14:00 gmt appears at the end of this posting. please check the list to be sure that your vote has been registered. read the instructions for voting carefully and follow them precisely to be certain that you place a proper vote. instructions for voting: to place a vote for the creation of misc.health.diabetes, send an email message to yes@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil to place a vote against creation of misc.health.diabetes, send an email message to no@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil the contents of the message should contain the line "i vote for/against misc.health.diabetes as proposed". email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for/against newsgroup creation as proposed. conditional votes will not be accepted. only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted; mailed replies to this posting will be returned. in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual, only the most recent vote will be counted. voting will continue until 23:59 gmt, 29 apr 93. votes will not be accepted after this date. any administrative inquiries pertaining to this cfv may be made by email to swkirch@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil the proposed charter appears below. charter: misc.health.diabetes unmoderated 1. the purpose of misc.health.diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management, i.e.: diet, activities, medicine schedules, blood glucose control, exercise, medical breakthroughs, etc. this group addresses the issues of management of both type i (insulin dependent) and type ii (non-insulin dependent) diabetes. both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome. 2. postings to misc.heath.diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only, and are in no way to be construed as medical advice. diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician. -----(end of charter)----- the following individuals have sent in valid votes: 9781bmu@vms.csd.mu.edu bill satterlee a2wj@loki.cc.pdx.edu jim williams ac534@freenet.carleton.ca colin henein ad@cat.de axel dunkel al198723@academ07.mty.itesm.mx jesus eugenio s nchez pe~a anugula@badlands.nodak.edu ramakrishna reddy anugula apps@sneaks.kodak.com robert w. apps arperd00@mik.uky.edu alicia r perdue baind@gov.on.ca dave bain balamut@morris.hac.com morris balamut bch@juliet.caltech.edu bgaines@ollamh.ucd.ie brian gaines bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no bobw@hpsadwc.sad.hp.com bob waltenspiel bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk bruce bspencer@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca brian spencer cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu ernest a. cline coleman@twin.twinsun.com mike coleman compass-da.com!tomd@compass-da.com thomas donnelly csc@coast.ucsd.edu charles coughran curtech!sbs@unh.edu stephanie bradley-swift debrum#m#_brenda@msgate.corp.apple.com debrum, brenda dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com david barton dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu deborah lynn gillaspie dougb@comm.mot.com douglas bank ed@titipu.resun.com edward reid edmoore@hpvclc.vcd.hp.com ed moore ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu eric j. olson emcguire@intellection.com ed mcguire ewc@hplb.hpl.hp.com enrico coiera feathr::bluejay@ampakz.enet.dec.com franklig@gas.uug.arizona.edu gregory c franklin fsspr@acad3.alaska.edu hardcore alaskan gabe@angus.mi.org gabe helou gasp@medg.lcs.mit.edu isaac kohane gasp@medg.lcs.mit.edu isaac kohane geir.millstein@tf.tele.no ggurman@cory.berkeley.edu gail gurman ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us gregory g. woodbury greenlaw@oasys.dt.navy.mil leila thomas grm+@andrew.cmu.edu gretchen miller halderc@cs.rpi.edu handelap%duvm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu phil handel hansenr@ohsu.edu hc@nyongwa.cam.org hc heddings@chrisco.nrl.navy.mil hubert heddings herbison@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com b.j. hmpetro@mosaic.uncc.edu herbert m petro hosch2263@iscsvax.uni.edu hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu herman rubin hudsoib@auducadm.duc.auburn.edu ingrid b. hudson huff@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu edward j. huff huffman@ingres.com gary huffman huynh_1@estd.nrl.navy.mil minh huynh ishbeld@cix.compulink.co.uk ishbel donkin james.langdell@eng.sun.com james langdell jamyers@netcom.com john a. myers jc@crosfield.co.uk jerry cullingford jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com randell jesup jjmorris@gandalf.rutgers.edu joyce morris joep@dap.csiro.au joe petranovic john.burton@acenet.auburn.edu john e. burton jr. johncha@comm.mot.com jorgensonke@cc.uvcc.edu jpsum00@mik.uky.edu joey p sum jtm@ucsfvm.ucsf.edu john maynard julien@skcla.monsanto.com kaminski@netcom.com peter kaminski kerry@citr.uq.oz.au kerry raymond kieran@world.std.com aaron l dickey knauer@cs.uiuc.edu rob knauerhase kolar@spot.colorado.edu jennifer lynn kolar kriguer@tcs.com marc kriguer lau@ai.sri.com stephen lau lee@hal.com lee boylan lmt6@po.cwru.edu lunie@lehigh.edu lusgr@chili.cc.lehigh.edu stephen g. roseman m.beamish@ins.gu.edu.au marilyn beamish m.rich@ens.gu.edu.au maurice h. rich. maas@cdfsga.fnal.gov peter maas macridis_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz gerry macridis markv@hpvcivm.vcd.hp.com mark vanderford maschler@vms.huji.ac.il mcb@net.bio.net michael c. berch mcday@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu mcookson@flute.calpoly.edu mfc@isr.harvard.edu mauricio f contreras mg@wpi.edu martha gunnarson mhollowa@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu michael holloway misha@abacus.concordia.ca misha glouberman mjb@cs.brown.edu manish butte moflngan@vax1.tcd.ie muir@idiom.berkeley.ca.us david muir sharnoff nancy.block@eng.sun.com nancy block ndallen@r-node.hub.org nigel allen nlr@b31.nei.nih.gov rohrer, nathan owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu bill owens pams@hpfcmp.fc.hp.com pam sullivan papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca paul prescod paslowp@cs.rpi.edu pillinc@gov.on.ca christopher pilling pkane@cisco.com peter kane popelka@odysseus.uchicago.edu glenn popelka pulkka@cs.washington.edu aaron pulkka pwatkins@med.unc.edu pat watkins rbnsn@mosaic.shearson.com ken robinson rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu richard h. miller robyn@media.mit.edu robyn kozierok rolf@green.mathematik.uni-stuttgart.de rolf schreiber sageman@cup.portal.com sasjcs@unx.sas.com joan stout scottjor@delphi.com scrl@hplb.hpl.hp.com scs@vectis.demon.co.uk stuart c. squibb shan@techops.cray.com sharan kalwani sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com sharen a. rund shazam@unh.edu matthew t thompson shipman@csab.larc.nasa.gov floyd s. shipman shoppa@erin.caltech.edu tim shoppa slillie@cs1.bradley.edu susan lillie steveo@world.std.com steven w orr surendar@ivy.wpi.edu surendar chandra swkirch@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil steven kirchoefer s_fagan@twu.edu taryn@arizvm1.ccit.arizona.edu taryn l. westergaard thomas.e.taylor@gagme.chi.il.us thomas e taylor tima@cfsmo.honeywell.com timothy d aanerud tsamuel%gollum@relay.nswc.navy.mil tony samuel u45301@uicvm.uic.edu m. jacobs vstern@gte.com vanessa stern wahlgren@haida.van.wti.com james wahlgren waterfal@pyrsea.sea.pyramid.com douglas waterfall weineja1@teomail.jhuapl.edu wgrant@informix.com william grant yeager@mscf.med.upenn.edu yozzo@watson.ibm.com ralph e. yozzo z919016@beach.utmb.edu molly hamilton steve kirchoefer (202) 767-2862 code 6851 kirchoefer@estd.nrl.navy.mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington, dc 20375-5000 electronics sci. and tech. division 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59023">
<answer instance="sci.med59023" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans, a disease about which i can find no information. apparently it has something to do with the body's production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast. can anyone out there tell me any more about it? candida albicans can cause severe life-threatening infections, usually in people who are otherwise quite ill. this is not, however, the sort of illness that you are probably discussing. "systemic yeast syndrome" where the body is allergic to yeast is considered a quack diagnosis by mainstream medicine. there is a book "the yeast connection" which talks about this "illness". there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists. david rind rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59025">
<answer instance="sci.med59025" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i believe it is illegal for a residency to discriminate against is that true? i know some that won't even interview fmgs. i think a case could be made that this is discriminatory, if an applicant had good board scores and recommendations but wasn't offered an interview, but i don't know if it has ever gone to court. fmgs who are not citizens are, like all aliens, in a difficult situation. only citizens get to vote here, so non-citizens are of little or no interest to legislators. also, the non-citizen may well be in the middle of processing for resident alien status. there is a stron sense that rocking the boat (eg. suing a residency program) will delay the granting of that status, perhaps for ever. don mackie - his opinions 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59026">
<answer instance="sci.med59026" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i am under the impression that msg "enhances" flavor by causing the taste buds to swell. no, that's not how it works. if this is correct, i do not find it unreasonable to assume that high doses of msg can cause other mouth tissues to swell. this may be through a different mechanism. also, as the many of the occurances (including two of the above) involved beef, and as beef is frequently tenderized with msg, this is what i suspect as being the cause. tenderizing beef involves sprinking or marinading it in papain, an enzyme. "meat tenderizer" packets might contain papain and msg and seasonings, but msg doesn't act as a tenderizer. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59031">
<answer instance="sci.med59031" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 msg is common in many food we eat, including chinese (though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them). i've noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants, i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards. this happens to many of my friends and relatives too. and, heh, we eat chinese food all the time at home :) (but we don't use msg when we're cooking for ourselves) so, when we put one and one together, it can be safely assumed that msg may cause some allergic reactions in some people. stick with natural things. msg doesn't do body any good (and possibly harms, for that matter). so, why bother with it? taste food as it should be tasted, and don't cloud the flavor with an imaginary cloak of msg. as i understood it, msg *is* natural. isn't it found in anyway, lots of people are terribly allergic to lots of natural things; peanuts, onions, tomatoes, milk, etc. just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it won't cause problems with some folks. as for how foods taste: if i'm not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it, why shouldn't i use it? saying i shouldn't use it is like saying i shouldn't eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer. people have long modified the taste of food by additives, whether they be chiles, black pepper, salt, cream sauces, etc. all of these things cloud the flavor of the food. why do we bother with them? how should food be tasted? isn't it better left to the diner? disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59034">
<answer instance="sci.med59034" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans, a disease about which i can find no information. apparently it has something to do with the body's production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast. can anyone out there tell me any more about it? candida albicans can cause severe life-threatening infections, usually in people who are otherwise quite ill. this is not, however, the sort of illness that you are probably discussing. "systemic yeast syndrome" where the body is allergic to yeast is considered a quack diagnosis by mainstream medicine. there is a book "the yeast connection" which talks about this "illness". there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists. there's a lot of evidence, it just hasn't been adequately gathered and published in a way that will convince the die-hard melancholic skeptics who quiver everytime the word 'anecdote' or 'empirical' is used. for example, dr. ivker, who wrote the book "sinus survival", always gives, before any other treatment, a systemic anti-fungal (such as nizoral) to his new patients if they've been on braod-spectrum anti-biotics 4 or more times in the last two years. he's kept a record of the results, and for over 2000 patients found that over 90% of his patients get significant relief of allergic/sinus symptoms. of course, this is only the beginning for his in my case, as i reported a few weeks ago, i was developing the classic symptoms outlined in 'the yeast connection' (i agree it is a poorly written book): e.g., extreme sensitivity to plastics, vapors, etc. which i never had before (started in november). within one week of full dosage of sporanox, the sensitivity to chemicals has fully disappeared - i can now sit on my couch at home without dying after two minutes. i'm also *greatly* improved in other areas as well. of course, i have allergy symptoms, etc. i am especially allergic to molds, yeasts, etc. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if one has excessive colonization of yeast in the body, and you have a natural allergy to yeasts, that a threshold would be reached where you would have perceptible symptoms. also, yeast do produce toxins of various sorts, and again, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that such toxins can cause problems in some people. in my case it was sinus since that's the center of my allergic response. of course, the $60,000 question is whether a person who is immune compromised (as tests showed i was from over 5 years of antibiotics, nutritionally-deficiencies because of the stress of infections and allergies, etc.), can develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere in the body. it is a tough question to answer since testing for excessive yeast colonization is not easy. one almost has to take an empirical approach to diagnosis. fortunately, sporanox is relatively safe unlike past anti-fungals (still have to be careful, however) so there's no reason any longer to withhold sporanox treatment for empirical reasons. btw, some would say to try nystatin. unfortunately, most yeast grows hyphae too deep into tissue for nystatin to have any permanent affect. you'll find a lot of people who are on nystatin all the time. in summary, i appreciate all of the attempts by those who desire to keep medicine on the right road. but methinks that some who hold too firmly to the party line are academics who haven't been in the trenches long enough actually treating patients. if anybody, doctors included, said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the 'yeast connection', i cannot guarantee their safety. for their incompetence, ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59035">
<answer instance="sci.med59035" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 does the proventil inhaler for asthma relief fall into the steroid or nonsteroid category? looking at the product literature it's not clear. rick@ysu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59037">
<answer instance="sci.med59037" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 "weight rebound" is a term used in the medical literature on obesity to denote weight regain beyond what was lost in a diet cycle. there are any number of terms which mean one thing to can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it exceeds the starting weight? or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers? gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59038">
<answer instance="sci.med59038" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 now, i'm not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose; it's very hard to culture bb in most cases. the point is that dr. n has developed a "feel" for what is and what isn't ld. this comes from years of experience. no serology can match that. unfortunately, some would call dr. n a "quack" and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck. why do you think he would be called a quack? the quacks don't do cultures. they poo-poo doing more lab tests: "this is lyme, believe me, i've seen it many times. the lab tests aren't accurate. we'll treat it now." also, is dr. n's practice almost exclusively devoted to treating lyme patients? i don't know *any* orthopedic surgeons who fit this pattern. they are usually gps. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59041">
<answer instance="sci.med59041" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i have seen a couple of postings refering to an sri called paxil. i have been on prozac for a number of years and recently switched to zolf. i have seen a bit of comparsion of prozac to paxil but none on zolft to prozac can some one enlight me on the differences/ side effect profile/ etc... does anyone know? james robie skinner | jodrey school of computer science james.skinner@dragon.acadiau.ca | acadia university, wolfville, ns, canada 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59045">
<answer instance="sci.med59045" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 now, i'm not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose; it's very hard to culture bb in most cases. the point is that dr. n has developed a "feel" for what is and what isn't ld. this comes from years of experience. no serology can match that. unfortunately, some would call dr. n a "quack" and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck. why do you think he would be called a quack? the quacks don't do cultures. they poo-poo doing more lab tests: "this is lyme, believe me, i've seen it many times. the lab tests aren't accurate. we'll treat it now." also, is dr. n's practice almost exclusively devoted to treating lyme patients? i don't know *any* orthopedic surgeons who fit this pattern. they are usually gps. are you arguing that the lyme lab test is accurate? the books that i've read say that in general the tests have a 50-50 chance of being correct. (the tests result in a large number of both false positives and false negatives. i am in the latter case.) we could get those same odds by "rolling the dice". ralph yozzo (yozzo@watson.ibm.com) from the beautiful and historic new york state mid-hudson valley. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59046">
<answer instance="sci.med59046" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 no, there is something called the "delany amendment" which makes carcinogenic food additives illegal in any amount. this was passed by congress in the i think what we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be illegal to commercially produce/sell food with carcinogenic substances, it is not illegal for people to do such to their own food (smoking, etc). is this true? whoa. what did you say your name was? address, ssn? smoking foods, eh? i think the gov't would like to know about this... 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59050">
<answer instance="sci.med59050" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 a friend's daughter has been diagnosed with an eye disease called "star gartds" (or something close) - it is apparently genetic, according to her, and affects every fourth generation. she would appreciate any information about this condition. if anything is available via ftp, please point me in the right direction.. the old frog's almanac - a salute to that old frog hisse'f, ryugen fisher (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) sco xenix 2.3.2 gt ladysmith, british columbia, canada. serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail - home to the holocaust almanac 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59052">
<answer instance="sci.med59052" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend of mine is seeing an acupuncturist and wants to know if there is any danger of getting aids from the needles. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59054">
<answer instance="sci.med59054" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 a relative of mine has recently been diagnosed with "stage 3 papillary cell ovarian cancer". we are urgently seeking the best place in the country for treatment for this. does anyone have any suggestions? as you might suspect, time is of the essence. thanks for your help. bob 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59056">
<answer instance="sci.med59056" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 a friend of mine is seeing an acupuncturist and wants to know if there is any danger of getting aids from the needles. ask the practitioner whether he uses the pre-sterilized disposable needles, or if he reuses needles, sterilizing them between use. in the former case there's no conceivable way to get aids from the needles. in the latter case it's highly unlikely (though many practitioners use the disposable variety anyway). euclid k. standard disclaimers apply "it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model [of light] to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace." --hudson & nelson (_university_physics_) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59059">
<answer instance="sci.med59059" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i have become involved in a project to further develop and improve the performance of spect (single photon emission computerized tomography) imaging. we will eventually have to peddle this stuff somewhere, and so as i move this thing along, i would like to know -- what is the current resolution of spect imaging? what kinds of jobs is spect used for, specifically? what kind of specific jobs could i hope that spect could be used for, if its resolution improved, say, to close to that of pet (positron emission tomography)? and how much does a spect machine cost? how much does a single spect image cost? if anyone knows the answer to any or all of these questions, or where i could find that answer, i would be very grateful, indeed. thanks in advance for any replies dave eliezer eliezer@physics.llnl.gov 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59060">
<answer instance="sci.med59060" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i recently learned about these devices that supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies in their users simply by wearing them. mind machines consist of led gogles, head phones, and a microprocessor that controls them. they strobe the (closed) eye and send sound pulses in sync with the flashing leds. i understand that these devices are experimental, but they are available. i've heard claims that they can induce sleep, and light trance states for relaxation. essentially they are supposed to work without aid of drugs etc... i would think that if they work as reported they would be incredibly useful, the few sources i've seen are biased (they are selling the things, and a friend who has tried them claims that "every home should have one"). so do these mind machines (aka light and sound machines) work? can they induce alpha, theta, and/or delta waves in a person wearing them? what research if any has been done on them? could they be used in lieu of a tranquilizer? or are they just another bit of quackery? web homer homer@tripos.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59063">
<answer instance="sci.med59063" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 :my wife's ob-gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office. when :the doctor couldn't hear a fetal heartbeat (13 weeks) she used :the ultrasound to see if everything was ok. (it was) :on her next visit, my wife asked another doctor in the office if :they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist :read the pictures. the doctor very vehemently insisted that they :were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not! :[stuff deleted] this is one of those sticky areas of medicine where battles frequently rage. with respect to your ob, i suspect that she has been certified in ultrasound diagnostics, and is thus allowed to use it and bill for its use. many cardiologists also use ultrasound (echocardiography), and are in fact considered by many to be the 'experts'. i am not sure where obs stand in this regard, but i suspect that they are at least as good as the radioligists (flame-retardant suit ready). = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59067">
<answer instance="sci.med59067" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 to: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (david nye) there is a person on the fido cfs echo who claims that he was cured of cfs by taking accutane. he also claims that you are using it in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome. are you using accutane in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome? have you used it for cfs? have you gotten good results with it? are you aware of any double blind studies on the use of accutane in these conditions? thank you in advance for all replies. ... i think they should rename waco tx to wacko tx! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59070">
<answer instance="sci.med59070" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can someone tell me whether or not any of the following medications has been linked to rapid/excessive weight gain and/or a distorted sense of taste or smell: hismanal; azmacort (a topical steroid to prevent asthma); vancenase. hismanal (astemizole) is most definitely linked to weight gain. it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect, and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and so tends not to cause steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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<instance id="sci.med59071">
<answer instance="sci.med59071" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly. some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face. some claim their heart "skipped" beats once in a while. both of these symptoms are related - tachycardia. getting a flushed face is due to the heart pumping the blood faster than a regular pulse. i suspect this is related to an increase in sodium levels in the blood, since note *sodium chloride* monosodium glutamate. both are sodium compounds. our bodies require sodium, but like everything else, one can get too much of a good thing. some reacted with headache, again, this could be related to increased blood flow from increased heart rate, from the sodium in the msg. distended crainial arteries, essentially. one of many causes of headaches. there is no discrepency her, necessarily. some stomach ache. well stomache ache and vomiting tend to be related. again, not necessarily a discrepency. more likely a related reaction. vomiting occurs as a response to get rid of a noxious compound an organism has eaten. if a person can't digest the stuff (entirely possible - the list of stuff people are allergic to is quite long), and lacks an enzyme to break it down, gastrointestinal distress (stomach or belly ache) would be expected. some had watery eyes or running nose, these are respiratory reactions, and are now considered to be similar to vomitting. they are a way for the body to dispose of noxious compounds. they are adaptiove responses. of course, it is possible some other food or environmental compound could be responsible for the symptoms. but it's important to remember that a lot opf these effets can be additive, synergystic, subtractive, etc, etc. it would be necessary to know exactly what was in a dish, and what else the person was exposed to. respiratory does sound suspicious but resopiration and heart rate are connected. things in the body are far from simple...very inetractive place, the vertebrate body. had itchy skin or rashes. people respond in a myriad of ways to the same compound. it depends upon what it is about the compound that "pisses off" their body. pollen, for example, of some plants aggrivates breathing in many people, because, when inhaled, it sets of the immune system, and an histamine attack is launched. the immune system goes overboard, causing the allergic person a lot of misery. and someone with an allergy to some pollens will have trouble with some herb teas that contain pollens (chamomile, linden, etc). drinking the substance can perturb that person's system as much as inhaling it. more serious accusations include respiration see above. and don't think that heart rate changes, and circulatory problems are not serious. they can be deadly. and brain damage. the area of the brain effected is the neuroendocrine system controlling the release of gonadotropin, the supra-hormone controlling the cyclical release of testosterone and estradiol, as well as somatostatin, and other steroids. testing for effective dose would be, uh, a wee bit unethical. now here is a new one: vomiting. my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem. in this case. it might be just food absolutely. but it could also be some synergystic mess from eating , say, undetected shrimp or mushrooms (to which many are allergic), plus too much alcohol, and inhaling too much diesel fumes biking home, plus, let's say, having contracted flu from one's sig. other 3 days before from drinking out of the same glass. could be all sorts of but it might be the msg. if you heard things about msg, you may think it must be it. if noone else got sick, its likely not food poisoning. probably stomach flu or an undetected thing the guy's allergic to. anyway, the human body's not a machine; people vary widely in their responses, and a lot of reactions are due to combinations of things. dianne murray wcsbeau@ccs.carleton.ca 
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<instance id="sci.med59072">
<answer instance="sci.med59072" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a person posted certain stuff to this newsgroup, which were highly selected quotes stripped of their context. here is the complete posting which was quoted (lacking the context of other postings in which it was made): probably within 50 years, a new type of eugenics will be possible. maybe even sooner. we are now mapping the human genome. we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome. using genetic engineering, we will be able to insert whatever genes we want. no breeding, no "hybrids", etc. the ethical question is, should we do this? should we make a race of disease-free, long-lived, arnold schwartzenegger-muscled, supermen? even if we can. probably within 50 years, it will be possible to disassemble and re-assemble our bodies at the molecular level. not only will flawless cosmetic surgery be possible, but flawless cosmetic psychosurgery. what will it be like to store all the prices of shelf-priced bar-coded goods in your head, and catch all the errors they make in the store's favor at safeway? what will it be like to mentally edit and spell- check your responses to the questions posed by a phone caller selling vacation time-share options? indeed, we are today a nation at risk! the threat is not from bad genes, but bad memes! memes are the basic units of culture, as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics. we stand on the brink of new meme-amplification technologies! harmful memes which formerly were restricted in their destructive power will run rampant over the countryside, laying waste to the real benefits that future technology has to offer. for example, jeremy rifkin has been busy trying to whip up emotions against the new genetically engineered tomatoes under development at calgene. this guy is inventing harmful memes, a virtual memetic typhoid we must expand the public-health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes. they should not be allowed to infect other people with their memes against genetically-engineered food, electromagnetic fields, and the space shuttle solid rocket boosters. 
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<instance id="sci.med59076">
<answer instance="sci.med59076" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 jb> jb> ron roth recommends: "once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the jb> proper channels, you might consider the following:..." jb> [diet omitted] jb> jb> 1) ron...what do you consider to be "proper channels"...this sounds suspiciously i'm glad it caught your eye. that's the purpose of this forum to educate those, eager to learn, about the facts of life. that phrase is used to bridle the frenzy of all the would-be respondents, who otherwise would feel being left out as the proper authorities to be consulted on that topic. in short, it means absolutely nothing. jb> like a blood chemistry...glucose tolerance and the like...suddenly chemistry jb> exists? you know perfectly well that this person can be saved needless trouble jb> and expense with simple muscle testing and hair analysis to diagnose...no jb> "confirm" any aberrant physiology...but then again...maybe that's what you mean" muscle testing and hair analysis, eh? so what other fascinating space-age medical techniques do you use? do you sit under a pyramid over night as well to shrink your brain back to normal after a mind- expanding day at your 'save the earth' clinic? jb> 2) were you able to understand dick king's post that "90% of diseases is not thy jb> evaluate the statistic you cited from the new england journal of medicine. coul? once i figure out what *you* are trying to say, i'll still have to wrestle with the possibility of you conceivably not being able to understand my answer to your question?! jb> 3) ron...have you ever thought about why you never post in misc.health.alterna- jb> tive...and insist instead upon insinuating your untrained, non-medical, often jb> delusional notions of health and disease into this forum? i suspect from your jb> apparent anger toward mds and heteropathic medicine that there may be an you little psychoanalytical rascal you! got me all figured out, ja? jb> underlying 'father problem'...of course i can confirm this by surrogate muscle jb> testing one of my patients while they ponder my theory to see if one of their jb> previously weak 'indicator' muscles strengthens...or do you have reservations jb> about my unique methods of diagnosis? [......] jb> jb> john badanes, dc, ca jb> romdas@uclink.berkeley.edu oh man, when are you going to start teaching all this stuff? i'll bet everyone on this net must be absolutely dying to learn more about going beyond spinal adjustments and head straight for the mind for some freudian subluxation. --ron-- rosereader 2.00 p003228: in the next world, you're on your own. rosemail 2.10 : usenet: rose media - hamilton (416) 575-5363 
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<instance id="sci.med59077">
<answer instance="sci.med59077" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 "weight rebound" is a term used in the medical literature on obesity to denote weight regain beyond what was lost in a diet cycle. there are any number of terms which mean one thing to can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it exceeds the starting weight? or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers? not one, but two: obesity in europe 88, proceedings of the 1st european congress on obesity annals of ny acad. sci. 1987 gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." chuck forsberg wa7kgx ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf author of ymodem, zmodem, professional-yam, zcomm, and dsz omen technology inc "the high reliability software" 17505-v nw sauvie is rd portland or 97231 503-621-3406 
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<instance id="sci.med59078">
<answer instance="sci.med59078" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 fell about 3 weeks ago down into the hold of the boat and broke or cracked a rib and wrenched and bruised my back and left arm. my question, i have been to a doctor and was told that it was best to do nothing and it would heal up with no long term effect, and indeed i am about 60 % better, however, the work i do is very hard and i am still not able to go back to work. the thing that worries me is the movement or "clunking" i feel and hear back there when i move certain ways... i heard some one talking about the rib they broke years ago and that it still bothers them.. any opinions? your doctor is right. it is best to do nothing, besides taking some pain medication initially. some patients don't like this and expect, or demand, to have something done. in these cases some physicians will "tape" the patient (put a lot of heavy adhesive tape around the chest), or prescribe an elastic binder. all this does is make it harder to breath, but the patient doesn't feel cheated, because soemthing is being done about the problem. either way, the end results are the same. howard doyle doyle+@pitt.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59079">
<answer instance="sci.med59079" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i live at sea-level, and am called-upon to travel to high-altitude cities quite frequently, on business. the cities in question are at 7000 to 9000 feet of altitude. one of them especially is very polluted... mexico city, bogota, la paz? often i feel faint the first two or three days. i feel lightheaded, and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea-level. also, it is very dry in these cities, so i will tend to drink a lot of water, and keep away from dehydrating drinks, such as those containing caffeine or alcohol. thing is, i still have symptoms. how can i ensure that my short trips there (no, i don't usually have a week to acclimatize) are as comfortable as possible? is there something else that i could do? an unconventional remedy that you might try for altitude sickness in the andes is chewing coca leaves or taking teas made from coca leaves. you might notice that many of the natives have wads in their mouths... the tea can be obtained in s. american pharmacies. this remedy alleviates some of the lightheadedness and dizziness - but don't try to jog with it. i've tried this when travelling and hiking in peru and ecuador. the amount of cocaine you would ingest are too minute to cause any highs... also it is a good idea to eat lightly and dress warm while adjusting to high altitudes. 
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<instance id="sci.med59083">
<answer instance="sci.med59083" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i experienced a sudden numbness in my left arm this morning. just after i completed my 4th set of deep squats. today was my weight training day and i was just beginning my routine. all of a sudden at the end of the 4th set my arm felt like it had gone to sleep. it was cold, turned pale, and lost 60% of its strength. the weight i used for squats wasn't that heavy, i was working hard but not at 100% effort. i waited for a few minutes, trying to shake the arm back to life and then continued with chest exercises (flyes) with lighter dumbells than i normally use. but i dropped the left dumbell during the first set, and experienced continued arm weakness into the second. so i quit training and decided not to do my usual hour on the ski machine either. i'll take it easy for the rest of the day. my arm is *still* somewhat numb and significantly weaker than normal -- my hand still tingles a bit down to the thumb. color has returned to normal and it is no longer cold. horrid thoughts of chunks of plaque blocking a major artery course through my brain. i'm 34, vegetarian, and pretty fit from my daily exercise regimen. so that can't be it. could a pinched nerve from the bar cause these symptoms (i hope)? has this happened to anyone else? nothing like this has ever happened to me before. does it come with age? tom molnar unix systems group, university of toronto computing & communications. 
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<instance id="sci.med59086">
<answer instance="sci.med59086" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 what does a lack of taste of foods, or a sense of taste that seems "off" when eating foods in someone who has cancer mean? what are the possible causes of this? why does it happen? pt has stage ii breast cancer, and is taking tamoxifin. also has stage iv lung cancer with known cna metastasis, and is taking klonopin (also had cranial radiation treatments). thanks! [not a doctor, but trying to understand family member's illness] 
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<instance id="sci.med59089">
<answer instance="sci.med59089" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 report them to your local bbb (better business bureau). bill claussen 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59100">
<answer instance="sci.med59100" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i live at sea-level, and am called-upon to travel to high-altitude cities quite frequently, on business. the cities in question are at 7000 to 9000 feet of altitude. one of them especially is very polluted... mexico city, bogota, la paz? often i feel faint the first two or three days. i feel lightheaded, and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea-level. also, it is very dry in these cities, so i will tend to drink a lot of water, and keep away from dehydrating drinks, such as those containing caffeine or alcohol. thing is, i still have symptoms. how can i ensure that my short trips there (no, i don't usually have a week to acclimatize) are as comfortable as possible? is there something else that i could do? go three days early. preliminary acclimatization takes 3-4 days. it takes weeks or months for full acclimatization. could you be experiencing some jet lag, too? 
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<instance id="sci.med59102">
<answer instance="sci.med59102" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 a good source of information on burzynski's method is in *the cancer industry* by pulitzer-prize nominee ralph moss. also, a non-profit organization called "people against cancer," which was formed for the purpose of allowing cancer patients to access information regarding cancer therapies not endorsed by the cancer industry, but which have shown highly promising results (all of which are non-toxic). anyone interested in cancer therapy should contact this organi- zation asap: people against cancer po box 10 otho ia 50569-0010 (515)972-4444 fax (515)972-4415 greg nigh 
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<instance id="sci.med59103">
<answer instance="sci.med59103" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 anyone have any information on the effects/origin of oxaprozin? it's marketed under the name "daypro", and appears to be an anti-inflammatory. is it similar to naproxin? stronger? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59106">
<answer instance="sci.med59106" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 if anyone knows of any database or newsgroup or as i mentioned up above, any information relating to this disorder i would sure appreciate hearing from you. i am not trying to play doctor here, but only trying to gather information about it. as i know now, these particular types of disorders are still not really well understood by the medical community, and so i'm going to see now....if somehow the internet can at least give me alittle insight. thanks. there is no database for infantile spasms, nor a newsgroup, that i know of. the medical library will be the best source of information for you. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59109">
<answer instance="sci.med59109" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 what causes those little brown spots on older people's hands? are they called "liver spots" because they're sort of liver-colored, or do they indicate some actual liver dysfunction? senile keratoses. have nothing to do with the liver. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59111">
<answer instance="sci.med59111" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 {much deleted] : the fact that this happened while eating two sugar coated cereals made : by kellog's makes me think she might be having an allergic reaction to : something in the coating or the cereals. of the four of us in our : immediate family, kathryn shows the least signs of the hay fever, running : nose, itchy eyes, etc. but we have a lot of allergies in our family history : including some weird food allergies - nuts, mushrooms. many of these cereals are corn-based. after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn (contains tryptophan) and seizures. the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder, not cause it. check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based. i'd be interested. david ozonoff, md, mph |boston university school of public health dozonoff@med-itvax1.bu.edu |80 east concord st., t3c (617) 638-4620 |boston, ma 02118 
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<instance id="sci.med59114">
<answer instance="sci.med59114" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 my insurance company encourages annual physicals, and at my age [42] i'm thinking that biannual physicals, at least, might be a good idea. therefore, i'm shopping for a gp. might as well get a good one. could the assembled net wisdom suggest things i should look for, or point me to the faq archive if on this topic if there is one? please email; i suspect that this topic is real net clutter bait. 
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<instance id="sci.med59115">
<answer instance="sci.med59115" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i experienced a sudden numbness in my left arm this morning. just after i completed my 4th set of deep squats. today was my weight training day and i was just beginning my routine. all of a sudden at the end of the 4th set my arm felt like it had gone to sleep. it was cold, turned pale, and lost 60% of its strength. the weight i used for squats wasn't that heavy, i was working hard but not at 100% effort. i waited for a few minutes, trying to shake the arm back to life and then continued with chest exercises (flyes) with lighter dumbells than i normally use. but i dropped the left dumbell during the first set, and experienced continued arm weakness into the second. so i quit training and decided not to do my usual hour on the ski machine either. i'll take it easy for the rest of the day. my arm is *still* somewhat numb and significantly weaker than normal -- my hand still tingles a bit down to the thumb. color has returned to normal and it is no longer cold. horrid thoughts of chunks of plaque blocking a major artery course through my brain. i'm 34, vegetarian, and pretty fit from my daily exercise regimen. so that can't be it. could a pinched nerve from the bar cause these symptoms (i hope)? it likely has nothing to do with "chunks of plaque" but it sounds like you may have a neurovascular compromise to your arm and you need medical attention *before* doing any more weight lifting. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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<instance id="sci.med59122">
<answer instance="sci.med59122" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ------------- cut here ----------------- hicnet medical newsletter page 13 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 gonorrhea -- colorado, 1985-1992 source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 the number of reported cases of gonorrhea in colorado increased 19.9% from 1991 to 1992 after declining steadily during the 1980s. in comparison, in the united states, reported cases of gonorrhea in 1992 continued an overall decreasing trend (1). this report summarizes an analysis of the increase in gonorrhea in colorado in 1992 and characterizes trends in the occurrence of this disease from 1985 through 1992. in 1992, 4679 cases of gonorrhea were reported to the colorado department of health (cdh) compared with 3901 cases reported in 1991. during 1992, reported cases increased 22.7% and 17.5% among females and males, respectively (table 1). similar increases occurred among blacks, whites, and hispanics (15.6%, 15.1%, and 15.9%, respectively); however, the number of reported cases with race not specified increased 88% from 1991 to 1992 and constituted 9.7% of all reported cases in 1992. although the largest proportional increases by age groups occurred among persons aged 35-44 years (80.4%) and greater than or equal to 45 years (87.7%), these age groups accounted for only 11.0% of all reported cases in 1992. persons in the 15-19-year age group accounted for the largest number of reported cases of gonorrhea during 1992 and the highest age group-specific rate (639 per 100,000). reported cases of gonorrhea increased 32.9% in the five-county denver metropolitan area (1990 population: 1,629,466) but decreased elsewhere in the state (table 1). half the cases of gonorrhea in the denver metropolitan area occurred in 8.4% (34) of the census tracts; these represent neighborhoods considered by sexually transmitted diseases (stds)/acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (aids) field staff to be the focus of gang and drug activity. when compared with 1991, the number of gonorrhea cases diagnosed among men in the denver metro health clinic (dmhc, the primary public std clinic in the denver metropolitan area) increased 33% in 1992, and the number of visits by males to the clinic increased 2.4%. concurrently, the number of cases diagnosed among women increased by 1%. among self-identified heterosexual men, the number of gonorrhea cases diagnosed at dmhc increased 33% and comprised 94% of all cases diagnosed in males, while the number of cases diagnosed among self-identified homosexual men remained low (71 and 74 in 1991 and 1992, respectively). four selected laboratories in the metropolitan denver area (i.e., hmo, university hospital, nonprofit family planning, and commercial) were contacted to determine whether gonorrhea culture-positivity rates increased. gonorrhea culture-positivity rates in three of four laboratories contacted increased 23%-33% from 1991 to 1992, while the rate was virtually unchanged in the fourth (i.e., nonprofit family planning). from 1985 through 1991, reported cases of gonorrhea among whites and hispanics in colorado decreased; in comparison, reported cases among blacks hicnet medical newsletter page 14 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 increased since 1988 (figure 1). during 1988-1992, the population in colorado increased 9.9% for blacks, 9.8% for hispanics, and 4.5% for whites. in 1992, the gonorrhea rate for blacks (1935 per 100,000 persons) was 57 times that for whites (34 per 100,000) and 12 times that for hispanics (156 per 100,000) (table 1). among black females, reported cases of gonorrhea increased from 1988 through 1992 in the 15-19-year age group; among black males, cases increased from 1989 through 1992 in both the 15-19-and 20-24-year age groups. reported by: ka gershman, md, jm finn, ne spencer, msph, std/aids program; re hoffman, md, state epidemiologist, colorado dept of health. jm douglas, md, denver dept of health and hospitals. surveillance and information systems br, div of sexually transmitted diseases and hiv prevention, national center for prevention svcs, cdc. editorial note: the increase in reported gonorrhea cases in colorado in 1992 may represent an overall increase in the occurrence of this disease or more complete reporting stimulated by visitations to laboratories by cdh surveillance staff during 1991-1992. the increases in confirmed gonorrhea cases at dmhc and in culture-positivity rates in three of four laboratories suggest a real increase in gonorrhea rather than a reporting artifact. however, the stable culture-positivity rate in the nonprofit family planning laboratory (which serves a network of clinics statewide) indicates that the gonorrhea increase did not uniformly affect all segments of the population. one possible explanation for the increased occurrence of gonorrhea in colorado may be gang- and drug-related sexual behavior, as implicated in a recent outbreak of drug-resistant gonorrhea and other stds in colorado springs (2). although the high morbidity census tracts in the denver metropolitan area coincide with areas of gang and drug activity, this hypothesis requires further assessment. to examine the possible role of drug use -- implicated previously as a factor contributing to the national increase in syphilis (3-6) -- the cdh std/aids program is collecting information from all persons in whom gonorrhea is diagnosed regarding drug use, exchange of sex for money or drugs, and gang affiliation. the gonorrhea rate for blacks in colorado substantially exceeds the national health objective for the year 2000 (1300 per 100,000) (objective 19.1a) (7). race is likely a risk marker rather than a risk factor for gonorrhea and other stds. risk markers may be useful for identifying groups at greatest risk for stds and for targeting prevention efforts. moreover, race- specific variation in std rates may reflect differences in factors such as socioeconomic status, access to medical care, and high-risk behaviors. in response to the increased occurrence of gonorrhea in colorado, interventions initiated by the cdh std/aids program include 1) targeting partner notification in the denver metropolitan area to persons in groups at increased risk (e.g., 15-19-year-old black females and 20-24-year-old black males); 2) implementing a media campaign (e.g., public service radio hicnet medical newsletter page 15 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 announcements, signs on city buses, newspaper advertisements, and posters in schools and clinics) to promote awareness of std risk and prevention targeted primarily at high-risk groups, and 3) developing teams of peer educators to perform educational outreach in high-risk neighborhoods. the educational interventions are being developed and implemented with the assistance of members of the target groups and with input from a forum of community leaders and health-care providers. 1. cdc. table ii. cases of selected notifiable diseases, united states, weeks ending december 26, 1992, and december 28, 1991 (52nd week). mmwr 1993;41:975. 2. cdc. gang-related outbreak of penicillinase-producing neisseria gonorrhoeae and other sexually transmitted diseases -- colorado springs, colorado, 1989- 1991. mmwr 1993;42:25-8. 3. cdc. relationship of syphilis to drug use and prostitution -- connecticut and philadelphia, pennsylvania. mmwr 1988;37:755-8, 764. 4. rolfs rt, goldberg m, sharrar rg. risk factors for syphilis: cocaine use and prostitution. am j public health 1990;80:853-7. 5. andrus jk, fleming dw, harger dr, et al. partner notification: can it control epidemic syphilis? ann intern med 1990;112:539-43. 6. gershman ka, rolfs rt. diverging gonorrhea and syphilis trends in the 1980s: are they real? am j public health 1991;81:1263-7. 7. public health service. healthy people 2000: national health promotion and disease prevention objectives--full report, with commentary. washington, dc: us department of health and human services, public health service, 1991; dhhs publication no. (phs)91-50212. hicnet medical newsletter page 16 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 effectiveness in disease and injury prevention impact of adult safety-belt use on restraint use among children less than 11 years of age -- selected states, 1988 and 1989 source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 motor-vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death among children and young adults in the united states and account for more than 1 million years of potential life lost before age 65 annually (1). child safety seats and safety belts can substantially reduce this loss (2). from 1977 through 1985, all 50 states passed legislation requiring the use of child safety seats or safety belts for children. although these laws reduce injuries to young children by an estimated 8%-59% (3,4), motor-vehicle crash-related injuries remain a major cause of disability and death among u.s. children (1), while the use of occupant restraints among children decreases inversely with age (84% usage for those aged 0-4 years; 57%, aged 5-11 years; and 29%, aged 12-18 years) (5). in addition, parents who do not use safety belts themselves are less likely to use restraints for their children (6). to characterize the association between adult safety-belt use and adult-reported consistent use of occupant restraints for the youngest child aged less than 11 years within a household, cdc analyzed data obtained from the behavioral risk factor surveillance system (brfss) during 1988 and 1989. this report summarizes the findings from this data were available for 20,905 respondents aged greater than or equal to 18 years in 11 states * that participated in brfss -- a population-based, random-digit-dialed telephone survey -- and administered a standard injury control and child safety module developed by cdc. of these respondents, 5499 (26%) had a child aged less than 11 years in their household. each respondent was asked to specify the child's age and the frequency of restraint use for that child. the two categories of child restraint and adult safety-belt use in this analysis were 1) consistent use (i.e., always buckle up) and 2) less than consistent use (i.e., almost always, sometimes, rarely, or never buckle up). data were weighted to provide estimates representative of each state. software for survey data analysis (sudaan) (7) was used to calculate point estimates and confidence intervals. statistically significant differences were defined by p values of less than 0.05. each of the 11 states had some type of child restraint law. of these, six (arizona, kentucky, maine, nebraska, rhode island, and west virginia) had no law requiring adults to use safety belts; four (idaho, maryland, pennsylvania, and washington) had a secondary enforcement mandatory safety-belt law (i.e., a vehicle had to be stopped for a traffic violation before a citation for nonuse of safety belts could be issued); and one state (new york) had a primary enforcement mandatory safety-belt law (i.e., vehicles could be stopped for a safety-belt law violation alone). in nine states, child-passenger protection hicnet medical newsletter page 17 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 laws included all children aged less than 5 years, but the other two states used both age and size of the child as criteria for mandatory restraint use. the analysis in this report subgrouped states into 1) those having a law requiring adult safety-belt use (law states), and 2) those without such a law (no-law states). overall, 21% of children aged less than 11 years reportedly were not consistently restrained during automobile travel. both child restraint use and adult restraint use were significantly higher (p less than 0.05, chi-square test) in law states than in no-law states (81.1% versus 74.3% and 58.7% versus 43.2%, respectively). high rates of restraint use for children aged less than or equal to 1 year were reported by both adults indicating consistent and less than consistent safety-belt use (figure 1). adults with consistent use reported high rates of child-occupant restraint use regardless of the child's age (range: 95.5% for 1-year-olds to 84.7% for 10-year-olds). in comparison, for adults reporting less than consistent safety-belt use, the rate of child- occupant restraint use declined sharply by the age of the child (range: 93.1% for 1-year-olds to 28.8% for 10-year-olds). when comparing children of consistent adult safety-belt users with children of less than consistent adult safety-belt users, 95% confidence intervals overlap for the two youngest age groups (i.e., aged less than 1 and 1 year). reported child-occupant restraint use in law states generally exceeded that in no-law states, regardless of age of child (table 1). in addition, higher adult educational attainment was significantly associated with increased restraint use for children, a factor that has also been associated with increased adult safety-belt use (8). reported by: national center for injury prevention and control; national center for chronic disease prevention and health promotion, cdc. editorial note: the findings in this report are consistent with others indicating that adults who do not use safety belts themselves are less likely to employ occupant restraints for their children (6,9). because these nonbelted adults are at increased risk of crashing and more likely to exhibit other risk-taking behaviors, children traveling with them may be at greater risk for motor-vehicle injury (10). educational attainment of adult respondents was inversely associated with child restraint use in this report. accordingly, occupant-protection programs should be promoted among parents with low educational attainment. because low educational attainment is often associated with low socioeconomic status, such programs should be offered to adults through health-care facilities that serve low-income communities or through federal programs (i.e., head start) that are directed at parents with young children. injury-prevention programs emphasize restraining young children. in addition, however, efforts must be intensified to protect child occupants as hicnet medical newsletter page 18 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 they become older. parents, especially those with low educational attainment, those who do not consistently wear safety belts, and those from states that do not have mandatory safety-belt use laws, should be encouraged to wear safety belts and to protect their children by using approved child safety seats and safety belts. finally, the increased use of restraints among children may increase their likelihood of using safety belts when they become teenagers -- the age group characterized by the lowest rate of safety-belt use and the highest rate of fatal crashes (5). 1. cdc. childhood injuries in the united states. am j dis child 1990;144:627- 2. partyka sc. papers on child restraints: effectiveness and use. washington, dc: us department of transportation, national highway traffic safety administration, 1988; report no. dot-hs-807-286. 3. guerin d, mackinnon d. an assessment of the california child passenger restraint requirement. am j public health 1985;75:142-4. 4. hall w, orr b, suttles d, et al. progress report on increasing child restraint usage through local education and distribution programs. chapel hill, north carolina: university of north carolina at chapel hill, highway safety research center, 1983. 5. national highway traffic safety administration. occupant protection trends in 19 cities. washington, dc: us department of transportation, national highway traffic safety administration, 1991. 6. wagenaar ac, molnar lj, margolis lh. characteristics of child safety seat users. accid anal prev 1988;20:311-22. 7. shah bv, barnwell bg, hunt pn, lavange lm. software for survey data analysis (sudaan) version 5.50 software documentation. research triangle park, north carolina: research triangle institute, 1991. 8. lund ak. voluntary seat belt use among u.s. drivers: geographic, socioeconomic and demographic variation. accid anal prev 1986;18:43-50. 9. margolis lh, wagenaar ac, molnar lj. use and misuse of automobile child restraint devices. am j dis child 1992;146:361-6. 10. hunter ww, stutts jc, stewart jr, rodgman ea. characteristics of seatbelt users and non-users in a state with a mandatory use law. health education hicnet medical newsletter page 19 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 research 1990;5:161-73. * arizona, idaho, kentucky, maine, maryland, nebraska, new york, pennsylvania, rhode island, washington, and west virginia. hicnet medical newsletter page 20 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 publication of cdc surveillance summaries source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 since 1983, cdc has published the cdc surveillance summaries under separate cover as part of the mmwr series. each report published in the cdc surveillance summaries focuses on public health surveillance; surveillance findings are reported for a broad range of risk factors and health conditions. summaries for each of the reports published in the most recent (march 19, 1993) issue of the cdc surveillance summaries (1) are provided below. all subscribers to mmwr receive the cdc surveillance summaries, as well as the mmwr recommendations and reports, as part of their subscriptions. surveillance for and comparison of birth defect prevalences in two geographic areas -- united states, 1983-88 problem/condition: cdc and some states have developed surveillance systems to monitor the birth prevalence of major defects. reporting period covered: this report covers birth defects surveillance in metropolitan atlanta, georgia, and selected jurisdictions in california for the years 1983-1988. description of system: the california birth defects monitoring program and the metropolitan atlanta congenital defects program are two population- based surveillance systems that employ similar data collection methods. the prevalence estimates for 44 diagnostic categories were based on data for 1983- 1988 for 639,837 births in california and 152,970 births in metropolitan atlanta. the prevalences in the two areas were compared, adjusting for race, sex, and maternal age by using poisson regression. results: regional differences in the prevalence of aortic stenosis, fetal alcohol syndrome, hip dislocation/dysplasia, microcephalus, obstruction of the kidney/ureter, and scoliosis/lordosis may be attributable to general diagnostic variability. however, differences in the prevalences of arm/hand limb reduction, encephalocele, spina bifida, or trisomy 21 (down syndrome) are probably not attributable to differences in ascertainment, because these defects are relatively easy to diagnose. interpretation: regional differences in prenatal diagnosis and pregnancy termination may affect prevalences of trisomy 21 and spina bifida. however, the reason for differences in arm/hand reduction is unknown, but may be related to variability in environmental exposure, heterogeneity in the gene pool, or random variation. actions taken: because of the similarities of these data bases, several collaborative studies are being implemented. in particular, the differences in the birth prevalence of spina bifida and down syndrome will focus attention on the impact of prenatal diagnosis. authors: jane schulman, ph.d., nancy hicnet medical newsletter page 21 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 jensvold, m.p.h, gary m. shaw, dr.p.h., california birth defects monitoring program, march of dimes birth defects foundation. larry d. edmonds, m.s.p.h., anne b. mcclearn, division of birth defects and developmental disabilities, national center for environmental health, cdc. influenza -- united states, 1988-89 problem/condition: cdc monitors the emergence and spread of new influenza virus variants and the impact of influenza on morbidity and mortality annually from october through may. reporting period covered: this report covers u.s. influenza surveillance conducted from october 1988 through may 1989. description of system: weekly reports from the vital statistics offices of 121 cities provided an index of influenza's impact on mortality; 58 who collaborating laboratories reported weekly identification of influenza viruses; weekly morbidity reports were received both from the state and territorial epidemiologists and from 153 sentinel family practice physicians. nonsystematic reports of outbreaks and unusual illnesses were received throughout the year. results: during the 1988-89 influenza season, influenza a(h1n1) and b viruses were identified in the united states with essentially equal frequency overall, although both regional and temporal patterns of predominance shifted over the course of the season. throughout the season increases in the indices of influenza morbidity in regions where influenza a(h1n1) predominated were similar to increases in regions where influenza b predominated. only 7% of identified viruses were influenza a(h3n2), but isolations of this subtype increased as the season waned, and it subsequently predominated during the 1989-90 season. during the 1988-89 season outbreaks in nursing homes were reported in association with influenza b and a(h3n2) but not influenza a(h1n1). interpretation: the alternating temporal and geographic predominance of influenza strains a(h1n1) and b during the 1988-89 season emphasizes the importance of continual attention to regional viral strain surveillance, since amantadine is effective only for treatment and prophylaxis of influenza a. actions taken: weekly interim analyses of surveillance data produced throughout the season allow physicians and public health officials to make informed choices regarding appropriate use of amantadine. cdc's annual surveillance allows the observed viral variants to be assessed as candidates for inclusion as components in vaccines used in subsequent influenza seasons. authors: louisa e. chapman, m.d., m.s.p.h., epidemiology activity, office of the director, division of viral and rickettsial diseases, national center for infectious diseases; margaret a. tipple, m.d., division of quarantine, national center for prevention services, cdc. suzanne gaventa folger, m.p.h., health investigations branch, division of health studies, agency for toxic substances and disease registry. maurice harmon, ph.d., connaught hicnet medical newsletter page 22 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 laboratories, pasteur-mirieux company, swiftwater, pennsylvania. alan p. kendal, ph.d., european regional office, world health organization, copenhagen, denmark. nancy j. cox, ph.d., influenza branch, division of viral and rickettsial diseases, national center for infectious diseases; lawrence b. schonberger, m.d., m.p.h., epidemiology activity, office of the director, division of viral and rickettsial diseases, national center for infectious diseases, cdc. 1. cdc. cdc surveillance summaries (march 19). mmwr 1993;42(no. ss-1). hicnet medical newsletter page 23 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 clinical research news clinical research news for arizona physicians vol. 4, no. 4, april 1993 tucson, arizona published monthly by the office of public affairs at the university of arizona health sciences center. copyright 1993, the university of arizona high tech assisted reproductive technologies following the birth of the first in vitro fertilization-embryo transfer (ivf- et) baby in 1978, a host of assisted reproductive technologies have been developed that include ivf-et, gamete intrafallopian tube transfer (gift), embryo cryopreservation (freezing) and gamete micromanipulation. together, these technologies are referred to as the high-tech assisted reproductive technology (art) procedures. ovulation induction, sperm insemination and surgery for tubal disease and/or pathology still are the mainstays of the therapies available for infertility management. however, when these fail, it almost always is appropriate to proceed with one of the art procedures. therefore, in addition to a comprehensive basic and general infertility service at the university of arizona center for reproductive endocrinology and infertility, there is a program of assisted reproduction that specializes in art procedures. this program serves as a tertiary provider for those patients in the state of arizona whose infertility problems cannot be resolved by the traditional therapies. the following article (on back) describes the art procedures available in our center, clarifies appropriate applications for each, and considers the realistic expectations for their success. procedures included are: o in vitro o fertilization - embryo transfer (ivf-et), gamete intrafallopian tube o (gift), cryopreservation of human embryos and gamete micromanipulation. this article also considers ongoing research in our program that is directed towards improved success of these technologies. hicnet medical newsletter page 24 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 future areas of research in addition to ongoing research that is directed exclusively toward the management of infertile couples, we are developing the technology to assist couples who are at risk for producing embryos with a serious hereditary this technology involves biopsying the preimplantation human embryo and then subjecting the biopsied cells to genetic analysis using either dna amplification or fluorescent in situ hybridization. there are recent reports of the successful application of dna amplification by other centers, for example, for diagnosis of the genes for cystic fibrosis and hemophilia. we hope to apply and further focus fluorescent in situ hybridization technology for probing the x chromosome, the identification of which will provide a scientific basis for counselling patients who exhibit sex-linked disorders. the considerable clinical application of such technology lies in the fact that it circumvents the need for prenatal diagnosis, in addition to the possibility of a subsequent termination of affected fetuses, in order to avoid the birth of affected children. catherine racowsky, ph.d. associate professor and director of research department of obstetrics and gynecology college of medicine university of arizona tucson, arizona applications, success rates and advances for the management of infertility the following are the art procedures available at the university of arizona center for reproductive endocrinology and infertility. in vitro fertilization - embryo transfer is the core art procedure of our assisted reproduction program. this procedure involves retrieval of unfertilized eggs from the ovary, their insemination in vitro in a dish, and the culture of resultant embryos for 1 or 2 days, before they are transferred to the patient's uterus. all cultures are maintained in an incubator under strictly controlled atmospheric and temperature conditions. before being processed for use in insemination, semen samples are evaluated in our andrology laboratory using both subjective light microscopy and computer- hicnet medical newsletter page 25 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 assisted semen analyses. to ensure an adequate number of eggs with which to perform ivf-et, or indeed, gift, follicular development is typically stimulated, with gonadotropins (perganol, metrodin), gonadotropin releasing hormone (gnrh, factrel, lutrepulse) and/or gnrh analogues (lupron, depo lupron, synarel). occasionally, however, ivf-et is accomplished with eggs obtained in non-stimulated cycles. while some programs utilize laparoscopic egg retrieval in the operating room with the patient under general anesthesia, we undertake the less costly approach of ultrasound-guided retrieval in our infertility unit, with the patient sedated. couples who resort to ivf-et exhibit such pathologies as tubal deficiencies, ovulatory dysfunction, endometriosis, and/or mild forms of male factor infertility. according to the united states ivf registry, the overall success rate for ivf-et nationwide has stabilized at about 14 percent per cycle. results from our program, involving 86 patients who have undergone 173 ivf-et cycles, reflect a comparable success rate. nevertheless, the overall incidence of success with this procedure is disconcertingly low and emphasizes the need to address those physiological factors that limit achievement of a higher percentage of pregnancies. well recognized predictors of outcome include patient age, response to exogenous ovarian stimulation, quality of sperm and number of repeated ivf-et cycle attempts. however, among these, age is the single most significant determinant of conception. therefore, it is critical that such patients are referred to an assisted reproduction program at the earliest opportunity following failure of traditional therapies. the underlying basis for the negative effect of age on fertility has not been clearly delineated beyond recognition that: 1) the number of eggs available for retrieval declines markedly with age; 2) fertilization rates significantly decrease in eggs retrieved from patients who are over 40 years; and 3) provided the appropriate hormonal background is present, age is unrelated to uterine competency to sustain pregnancy. ongoing research in our center, therefore, is investigating physiological changes in the egg that may be impacted by age. we have determined that more than 50 percent of eggs that fail to fertilize in vitro are chromosomally abnormal, and that a significant proportion of these abnormalities are accountable to patient age. currently, the only recourse for such patients is to use eggs obtained from a donor. our program has initiated recruitment of volunteer egg donors to satisfy the needs of a list of recipients interested in this form of therapy. gift - this high-tech art procedure is performed in the operating room, usually with the use of a laparoscope and, in contrast to ivf-et, involves introducing sperm and freshly retrieved eggs into the lumen of the fallopian tube (an average of 3 eggs/tube). under these circumstances, fertilization occurs in vivo and, if excess eggs are retrieved, the remainder undergo ivf, with subsequent options for embryo transfer in that cycle, or freezing for transfer in a subsequent cycle. this art procedure is applied to cases in hicnet medical newsletter page 26 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 which there is at least one patent fallopian tube but the couple has such pathologies as ovulatory dysfunction, endometriosis, male factor infertility and/or idiopathic infertility. the data reported in the united states ivf registry for 1985 through 1990 indicate that the overall success rate with gift is higher than that obtained with the ivf-et technique (range of clinical pregnancies for gift is 24 to 36 percent and for ivf-et 14 to 18 percent). in view of this fact, one might expect more patients to be treated with gift than ivf-et. however, in our program we have taken into account three basic concerns which, while substantially reducing the number of gift cycles performed, benefit the patient. these concerns are: 1) the increased costs associated with performing a procedure in the operating room; 2) the risks, albeit minimal, of undergoing general anesthesia; and 3) the considerable benefits to be accrued from obtaining direct information on the quality and fertilizability of the eggs, and the developmental competency of resultant embryos. the increased success with gift undoubtedly reflects the artificial environment provided by the laboratory in the ivf-et procedure. between january 1, 1991, and december 31, 1992, we have performed a total of 12 gift cycles, with an overall success rate of 20 percent. embryo cryopreservation, or freezing, is applied in our program when embryos result from residual gift eggs or from non-transferred ivf embryos. this procedure not only provides patients with a subsequent opportunity for success at much reduced costs, but also circumvents the legal and ethical issues relating to disposal of supernumerary embryos. therefore, as stipulated by the american fertility society ethical guidelines for art programs, from both a practical and an ethical standpoint, all assisted reproduction programs should have the capability of cryopreserving human embrys. gamete micromanipulation - this art procedure, which is still very new, is applied to couples who are unaccepting of insemination with donor semen but who have severe male factor infertility (less than 10 million sperm/ml in combination with fewer than 20 perccent motile sperm, and/or less than 10 percent sperm with normal morphology). we are currently developing the procedure of sub-zonal insertion (szi), which entails injecting sperm under the coating around the egg, the barrier normally penetrated by the sperm through enzymatic digestion. available data from szi programs world-wide indicate that only 5 to 10 percent of szi cycles result in a pregnancy. this statistic undoubtedly relates to limitations imposed by abnormalities inherent in the sperm. therefore, we are currently focusing on the development of improved techniques for the recognition and selection of sperm chosen for manipulation. such efforts are unquestionably worthwhile in view of the fact that this technology offers the only realistic opportunity for severe male factor patients to establish conception. catherine racowsky, ph.d. hicnet medical newsletter page 27 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 associate professor and director of research department of obstetrics and gynecology college of medicine --------- end of part 2 ------------ internet: david@stat.com fax: +1 (602) 451-1165 bitnet: atw1h@asuacad fidonet=> 1:114/15 amateur packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na 
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 ------------- cut here ----------------- limits of azt's efficacy and now suggest using the drug either sequentially with other drugs or in a kind of aids treatment "cocktail" combining a number of drugs to fight the virus all at once. "treating people with azt alone doesn't happen in the real world anymore," said dr. mark jacobson of the university of california--san francisco. also, with recent findings indicating that hiv replicates rapidly in the lymph nodes after infection, physicians may begin pushing even harder for early treatment of hiv-infected "new infectious disease push" american medical news (04/05/93) vol. 36, no. 13, p. 2 the center for disease control will launch a worldwide network to track the spread of infectious diseases and detect drug-resistant or new strains in time to help prevent their spread. the network is expected to cost between $75 million and $125 million but is an essential part of the clinton administration's health reform plan, according to the cdc and outside experts. the plan will require the cdc to enhance surveillance of disease in the united states and establish about 15 facilities across the world to track disease. april 13, 1993 "nih plans to begin aids drug trials at earlier stage" nature (04/01/93) vol. 362, no. 6419, p. 382 (macilwain, colin) hicnet medical newsletter page 42 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 the national institutes of health has announced it will start treating hiv-positive patients as soon as possible after seroconversion, resulting from recent findings that show hiv is active in the body in large numbers much earlier than was previously believed. anthony fauci, director of the u.s. national institute of allergy and infectious diseases (niaid), said, "we must address the question of how to treat people as early as we possibly can with drugs that are safe enough to give people for years and that will get around microbial resistance." he said any delay would signify questions over safety and resistance rather than a lack of funds. fauci, who co- authored one of the two papers published last week in nature, rejects the argument by one of his co-authors, cecil fox, that the new discovery indicates that "$1 billion spent on vaccine trials" has been "a waste of time and money" because the trials were started too long after the patients were infected and were ended too quickly. john tew of the medical college of virginia in richmond claims that the new evidence strongly backs the argument for early treatment of hiv-infected patients. aids activists welcomed the new information but said the scientific community has been slow to understand the significance of infection of the lymph tissue. "we've known about this for five years, but we're glad it is now in the public domain," said jesse dobson of the california-based project inform. but peter duesberg, who believes that aids is independent of hiv and is a result of drug abuse in the west, said, "we are several paradoxes away from an explanation of aids--even if these papers are right." april 14, 1993 "risk of aids virus from doctors found to be minimal" washington post (04/14/93), p. a9 the risk of hiv being transmitted from infected health-care professionals to patients is minimal, according to new research published in today's journal of the american medical association (jama). this finding supports previous conclusions by health experts that the chance of contracting hiv from a health care worker is remote. three studies in the jama demonstrate that thousands of patients were treated by two hiv-positive surgeons and dentists without becoming infected with the virus. the studies were conducted by separate research teams in new hampshire, maryland, and florida. each study started with an hiv-positive doctor or dentist and tested all patients willing to participate. the new hampshire study found that none of the 1,174 patients who had undergone invasive procedures by an hiv-positive orthopedic surgeon contracted hiv. in maryland, 413 of 1,131 patients operated on by a breast surgery specialist at johns hopkins hospital were found to be hiv-negative. similarly in florida, 900 of 1,192 dental hicnet medical newsletter page 43 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 patients, who all had been treated by an hiv-positive general dentist, were tested and found to be negative for hiv. the florida researchers, led by gordon m. dickinson of the university of miami school of medicine, said, "this study indicates that the risk for transmission of hiv from a general dentist to his patients is minimal in a setting in which universal precautions are strictly observed." related story: philadelphia inquirer (04/14) p. a6 "alternative medicine advocates divided over new nih research program" aids treatment news (04/02/93) no. 172, p. 6 (gilden, dave) the new office of alternative medicine at the national institutes of health has raised questions about the nih's commitment to an effort that uses unorthodox or holistic therapeutic methods. the oam is a small division of the nih, with its budget only at $2 million dollars compared to more than $10 billion for the nih as a whole. in addition, the money for available research grants is even smaller. about $500,000 to $600,000 total will be available this year for 10 or 20 grants. kaiya montaocean, of the center for natural and traditional medicine in washington, d.c., says the oam is afraid to become involved in aids. "they have to look successful and there is no easy answer in aids," she said. there is also a common perception that the oam will focus on fields the nih establishment will find non-threatening, such as relaxation techniques and acupuncture. when the oam called for an advisory committee conference of about 120 people last year, the aids community was largely missing from the meeting. in addition, activists' general lack of contact with the office has added suspicion that the epidemic will be ignored. jon greenberg, of act-up/new york, said, "the oam advisory panel is composed of practitioners without real research experience. it will take them several years to accept the nature of research." nevertheless, dr. leanna standish, research director and aids investigator at the bastyr college of naturopathic medicine in seattle, said, "here is a wonderful opportunity to fund aids research. it's only fair to give the office time to gel, but it's up to the public to insist that it's much, much more [than public relations]." "herpesvirus decimates immune-cell soldiers" science news (04/03/93) vol. 143, no. 14, p. 215 (fackelmann, kathy a.) scientists conducting test tube experiments have found that herpesvirus- 6 can attack the human immune system's natural killer cells. this attack causes the killer cells to malfunction, diminishing an important component in the immune system's fight against diseases. also, the herpesvirus-6 may be a factor in immune diseases, such as aids. in 1989, paolo lusso's research found that herpesvirus-6 attacks another white cell, the cd4 t-lymphocyte, which is the primary target of hiv. lusso also found that herpesvirus-6 can hicnet medical newsletter page 44 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 kill natural killer cells. scientists previously knew that the natural killer cells of patients infected with hiv do not work correctly. lusso's research represents the first time scientists have indicated that natural killer cells are vulnerable to any kind of viral attack, according to anthony l. komaroff, a researcher with harvard medical school. despite the test-tube findings, scientists are uncertain whether the same result occurs in the body. lusso's team also found that herpesvirus-6 produces the cd4 receptor molecule that provides access for hiv. cd4 t-lymphocytes express this surface receptor, making them vulnerable to hiv's attack. researchers concluded that herpesvirus-6 cells can exacerbate the affects of hiv. april 15, 1993 "aids and priorities in the global village: to the editor" journal of the american medical association (04/07/93) vol. 269, no. 13, p. 1636 (gellert, george and nordenberg, dale f.) all health-care workers are obligated and responsible for not only ensuring that politicians understand the dimensions of certain health problems, but also to be committed to related policies, write george gellert and dale f. nordenberg of the orange county health care agency, santa ana, calif., and the emory university school of public health in atlanta, ga., respectively. dr. berkley's editorial on why american doctors should care about the aids epidemic beyond the united states details several reasons for the concerted interest that all countries share in combating aids. it should be noted that while aids leads in hastening global health interdependence, it is not the only illness doing so. diseases such as malaria and many respiratory and intestinal pathogens have similarly inhibited the economic development of most of humanity and acted to marginalize large populations. berkley mentions the enormous social and economic impact that aids will have on many developing countries, and the increased need for international assistance that will result. berkley also cites the lack of political aggressiveness toward the aids epidemic in its first decade. but now there is a new administration with a promise of substantial differences in approach to international health and development in general, and hiv/aids in particular. vice president al gore proposes in his book "earth in the balance" a major environmental initiative that includes sustainable international development, with programs to promote literacy, improve child survival, and disseminate contraceptive technology and access throughout the developing world. if enacted, this change in policy could drastically change the future of worldwide health. "aids and priorities in the global village: in reply" journal of the american hicnet medical newsletter page 45 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 medical association (04/07/93) vol. 269, no. 13, p. 1636 (berkley, seth) every nation should tackle hiv as early and aggressively as possible before the disease reaches an endemic state, even at a cost of diverting less attention to some other illnesses, writes seth berkley of the rockefeller foundation in new york, n.y., in reply to a letter by drs. gellert and nordenberg. although it is true that diseases other than aids, such as malaria and respiratory and intestinal illnesses, have similarly inhibited economic development in developing countries and deserve much more attention than they are getting, berkley disagrees with the contention that aids is receiving too much attention. hiv differs from other diseases, in most developing countries because it is continuing to spread. for most endemic diseases, the outcome of neglecting interventions for one year is another year of about the same level of needless disease and death. but with aids and its increasing spread, the cost of neglect, not only in disease burden but financially, is much greater. interventions in the early part of a rampantly spreading epidemic like hiv are highly cost-effective because each individual infection prevented significantly interrupts transmission. berkley says he agrees with gellert and nordenberg about the gigantic social and economic effects of aids and about the need for political leadership. but he concludes that not only is assertive political leadership needed in the united states for the aids epidemic, but even more so in developing countries with high rates of hiv infection and where complacency about the epidemic has been the rule. hicnet medical newsletter page 46 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 aids/hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins in hiv-infected children h h s n e w s u.s. department of health and human services march 29, 1993 first hiv vaccine therapy trial begins in hiv-infected children the national institutes of health has opened the first trial of experimental hiv vaccines in children who are infected with the human immunodeficiency virus (hiv), the virus that causes aids. the trial will compare the safety of three hiv experimental vaccines in 90 children recruited from at least 12 sites nationwide. volunteers must be hiv- infected but have no symptoms of hiv disease. hhs secretary donna e. shalala said this initial study can be seen as "a hopeful milestone in our efforts to ameliorate the tragedy of hiv-infected children who now face the certainty they will develop aids." anthony s. fauci, m.d., director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and of the nih office of aids research, said the trial "is the first step in finding out whether vaccines can help prevent or delay disease progression in children with hiv who are not yet sick." if these vaccines prove to be safe, more sophisticated questions about their therapeutic potential will be assessed in phase ii trials. the centers for disease control and prevention estimates 10,000 children in the united states have hiv. by the end of the decade, the world health organization projects 10 million children will be infected worldwide. the study will enroll children ages 1 month to 12 years old. niaid, which funds the aids clinical trials group network, anticipates conducting the trial at nine actg sites around the country and three sites participating in the actg but funded by the national institute of child health and human preliminary evidence from similar studies under way in infected adults shows that certain vaccines can boost existing hiv-specific immune responses and hicnet medical newsletter page 47 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 stimulate new ones. it will be several years, however, before researchers know how these responses affect the clinical course of the disease. the results from the pediatric trial, known as actg 218, will be examined closely for other reasons as well. "this trial will provide the first insight into how the immature immune system responds to candidate hiv vaccines," said daniel hoth, m.d., director of niaid's division of aids. "we need this information to design trials to test whether experimental vaccines can prevent hiv infection in children." in the united states, most hiv-infected children live in poor inner-city areas, and more than 80 percent are minorities, mainly black or hispanic. nearly all hiv-infected children acquire the virus from their mothers during pregnancy or at birth. an infected mother in the united states has more than a one in four chance of transmitting the virus to her baby. as growing numbers of women of childbearing age become exposed to hiv through injection drug use or infected sexual partners, researchers expect a corresponding increase in the numbers of infected children. hiv disease progresses more rapidly in infants and children than in adults. the most recent information suggests that 50 percent of infants born with hiv develop a serious aids-related infection by 3 to 6 years of age. these infections include severe or frequent bouts of common bacterial illnesses of childhood that can result in seizures, pneumonia, diarrhea and other symptoms leading to nutritional problems and long hospital stays. at least half of the children in the trial will be 2 years of age or younger to enable comparison of the immune responses of the younger and older participants. all volunteers must have well-documented hiv infection but no symptoms of hiv disease other than swollen lymph glands or a mildly swollen liver or spleen. they cannot have received any anti-retroviral or immune- regulating drugs within one month prior to their entry into the study. study chair john s. lambert, m.d., of the university of rochester medical school, and co- chair samuel katz, m.d., of duke university school of medicine, will coordinate the trial assisted by james mcnamara, m.d., medical officer in the pediatric medicine branch of niaid's division of aids. "we will compare the safety of the vaccines by closely monitoring the children for any side effects, to see if one vaccine produces more swollen arms or fevers, for example, than another," said dr. mcnamara. "we'll also look at whether low or high doses of the vaccines stimulate immune responses or other significant laboratory or clinical effects." he emphasized that the small study size precludes comparing these responses or effects among the three hicnet medical newsletter page 48 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 the trial will test two doses each of three experimental vaccines made from recombinant hiv proteins. these so-called subunit vaccines, each genetically engineered to contain only a piece of the virus, have so far proved well- tolerated in ongoing trials in hiv-infected adults. one vaccine made by microgenesys inc. of meriden, conn., contains gp160--a protein that gives rise to hiv's surface proteins--plus alum adjuvant. adjuvants boost specific immune responses to a vaccine. presently, alum is the only adjuvant used in human vaccines licensed by the food and drug both of the other vaccines--one made by genentech inc. of south san francisco and the other by biocine, a joint venture of chiron and ciba-geigy, in emeryville, calif.--contain the major hiv surface protein, gp120, plus adjuvant. the genentech vaccine contains alum, while the biocine vaccine contains mf59, an experimental adjuvant that has proved safe and effective in other phase i vaccine trials in adults. a low dose of each product will be tested first against a placebo in 15 children. twelve children will be assigned at random to be immunized with the experimental vaccine, and three children will be given adjuvant alone, considered the placebo. neither the health care workers nor the children will be told what they receive. if the low dose is well-tolerated, controlled testing of a higher dose of the experimental vaccine and adjuvant placebo in another group of 15 children will each child will receive six immunizations--one every four weeks for six months--and be followed-up for 24 weeks after the last immunization. for more information about the trial sites or eligibility for enrollment, call the aids clinical trials information service, 1-800-trials-a, from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m., est weekdays. the service has spanish-speaking information specialists available. information on niaid's pediatric hiv/aids research is available from the office of communications at (301) 496- 5717. nih, cdc and fda are agencies of the u.s. public health service in hhs. for press inquiries only, please call laurie k. doepel at (301) 402-1663. hicnet medical newsletter page 49 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 new evidence that the hiv can cause disease independently news from the national institute of dental research there is new evidence that the human immunodeficiency virus can cause disease independently of its ability to suppress the immune system, say scientists at the national institues of health. they report that hiv itself, not an opportunistic infection, caused scaling skin conditions to develop in mice carrying the genes for hiv. although the hiv genes were active in the mice, they did not compromise the animals' immunity, the researchers found. this led them to conclude that the hiv itself caused the skin disease. our findings support a growing body of evidence that hiv can cause disease without affecting the immune system, said lead author dr. jeffrey kopp of the national institute of dental research (nidr). dr. kopp and his colleagues described their study in the march issue of aids research and human developing animal models of hiv infection has been difficult, since most animals, including mice, cannot be infected by the virus. to bypass this problem, scientists have developed hiv-transgenic mice, which carry genes for hiv as well as their own genetic material. nidr scientists created the transgenic mice by injecting hiv genes into mouse eggs and then implanting the eggs into female mice. the resulting litters contained both normal and transgenic animals. institute scientists had created mice that carried a complete copy of hiv genetic material in l988. those mice, however, became sick and died too soon after birth to study in depth. in the present study, the scientists used an incomplete copy of hiv, which allowed the animals to live longer. some of the transgenic animals developed scaling, wart-like tumors on their necks and backs. other transgenic mice developed thickened, crusting skin lesions that covered most of their bodies, resembling psoriasis in humans. no skin lesions developed in their normal, non-transgenic littermates. studies of tissue taken from the wart-like skin tumors showed that they were a type of noncancerous tumor called papilloma. although the papillomavirus can cause these skin lesions, laboratory tests showed no sign of that virus in the tissue samples taken from the sick mice throughout the study revealed the presence of a protein-producing molecule made by the hiv genetic material. hicnet medical newsletter page 50 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 evidence of hiv protein production proved that the viral genes were "turned on," or active, said dr. kopp. the scientists found no evidence, however, of compromised immunity in the mice: no increase in their white blood cell count and no signs of common infections. the fact that hiv genes were active but the animals' immune systems were not suppressed confirms that the virus itself was causing the skin lesions, dr. kopp said. further proof of hiv gene involvement came from a test in which the scientists exposed the transgenic animals to ultraviolet light. the light increased hiv genetic activity causing papillomas to develop on formerly healthy skin. papilloma formation in response to increased hiv genetic activity proved the genes were responsible for the skin condition, the scientists said. no lesions appeared on normal mice exposed to the uv light. the transgenic mice used in this study were developed at nidr by dr. peter dickie, who is now with the national institute of allergy and infectious collaborating on the study with dr. kopp were mr. charles wohlenberg, drs. nickolas dorfman, joseph bryant, abner notkins, and paul klotman, all of nidr; dr. stephen katz of the national cancer institute; and dr. james rooney, formerly with nidr and now with burroughs wellcome. hicnet medical newsletter page 51 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 clinical consultation telephone service for aids h h s n e w s u.s. department of health and human services march 4, 1993 hhs secretary donna e. shalala today announced the first nationwide clinical consultation telephone service for doctors and other health care professionals who have questions about providing care to people with hiv infection or aids. the toll-free national hiv telephone consulting service is staffed by a physician, a nurse practitioner and a pharmacist. it provides information on drugs, clinical trials and the latest treatment methods. the service is funded by the health resources and services administration and operates out of san francisco general hospital. secretary shalala said, "one goal of this project is to share expertise so patients get the best care. a second goal is to get more primary health care providers involved in care for people with hiv or aids, which reduces treatment cost by allowing patients to remain with their medical providers and community social support networks. currently, many providers refer patients with hiv or aids to specialists or other providers who have more experience." secretary shalala said, "this clinical expertise should be especially helpful for physicians and providers who treat people with hiv or aids in communities and clinical sites where hiv expertise is not readily available." the telephone number for health care professionals is 1-800-933-3413, and it is accessible from 10:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. est (7:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. pst) monday through friday. during these times, consultants will try to answer questions immediately, or within an hour. at other times, physicians and health care providers can leave an electronic message, and questions will be answered as quickly as possible. health care professionals may call the service to ask any question related to providing hiv care, including the latest hiv/aids drug treatment information, clinical trials information, subspecialty case referral, literature searches and other information. the service is designed for health care professionals rather than patients, families or others who have alternate sources of information or materials. when a health care professional calls the new service, the call is taken by either a clinical pharmacist, primary care physician or family nurse practitioner. all staff members have extensive experience in outpatient and inpatient primary care for people with hiv-related diseases. the consultant asks for patient-specific information, including cd4 cell count, current medications, sex, age and the patient's hiv history. this national service has grown out of a 16-month local effort that hicnet medical newsletter page 52 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 responded to nearly 1,000 calls from health care providers in northern california. the initial project was funded by hrsa's bureau of health professions, through its community provider aids training (cpat) project, and by the american academy of family physicians. "when providers expand their knowledge, they also improve the quality of care they are able to provide to their patients," said hrsa administrator robert g. harmon. m.d., m.p.h. "this project will be a great resource for health care professionals and the hiv/aids patients they serve." "this service has opened a new means of communication between health care professionals and experts on hiv care management," said hrsa's associate administrator for aids and director of the bureau of health resources development, g. stephen bowen, m.d., m.p.h. "providers who treat people with hiv or aids have access to the latest information on new drugs, treatment methods and therapies for people with hiv or aids." hrsa is one of eight u.s. public health service agencies within hhs. aids hotline numbers for consumers cdc national aids hotline -- 1-800-342-aids for information in spanish - 1-800-344-sida aids clinical trials (english & spanish) -- 1-800-trials-a hicnet medical newsletter page 53 ------------- cut here ----------------- -- this is the last part --------------- internet: david@stat.com fax: +1 (602) 451-1165 bitnet: atw1h@asuacad fidonet=> 1:114/15 amateur packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na 
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 ------------- cut here ----------------- volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 ! health info-com network ! ! medical newsletter ! editor: david dodell, d.m.d. 10250 north 92nd street, suite 210, scottsdale, arizona 85258-4599 usa telephone +1 (602) 860-1121 fax +1 (602) 451-1165 compilation copyright 1993 by david dodell, d.m.d. all rights reserved. license is hereby granted to republish on electronic media for which no fees are charged, so long as the text of this copyright notice and license are attached intact to any and all republished portion or portions. the health info-com network newsletter is distributed biweekly. articles on a medical nature are welcomed. if you have an article, please contact the editor for information on how to submit it. if you are interested in joining the automated distribution system, please contact the editor. e-mail address: editor: internet: david@stat.com fidonet = 1:114/15 bitnet = atw1h@asuacad listserv = mednews@asuacad.bitnet (or internet: mednews@asuvm.inre.asu.edu) anonymous ftp = vm1.nodak.edu notification list = hicn-notify-request@stat.com fax delivery = contact editor for information t a b l e o f c o n t e n t s 1. comments & news from the editor ocr / scanner news ................................................... 1 2. centers for disease control and prevention - mmwr [16 april 1993] emerging infectious diseases ......................... 3 outbreak of e. coli infections from hamburgers ....................... 5 use of smokeless tobacoo among adults ................................ 10 gonorrhea ............................................................ 14 impact of adult safety-belt use on children less than 11 years age ... 17 publication of cdc surveillance summaries ............................ 21 3. clinical research news high tech assisted reproductive technologies ......................... 24 4. articles low levels airborne particles linked to serious asthma attacks ....... 29 nih consensus development conference on melanoma ..................... 31 national cancer insitute designated cancer centers ................... 32 5. general announcments uci medical education software repository ............................ 40 6. aids news summaries aids daily summary april 12 to april 15, 1993 ........................ 41 7. aids/hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins in hiv-infected children .............. 47 new evidence that the hiv can cause disease independently ............ 50 clinical consultation telephone service for aids ..................... 52 hicnet medical newsletter page i volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 comments & news from the editor i would like to continue to thank everyone who has sent in a donation for the mednews ocr/scanner fund. we have reached our goal! a hewlett packard scanjet iip was purchased this week. thank you to the following individuals whose contributions i just received: john sorenson carol sigelman carla moore barbara moose judith schrier again, thank you to all who gave! i have been using wordscan plus for the past couple of weeks and would like to review the product. wordscan plus is a product of calera recognition systems. it runs under windows 3.1 and supports that accufont technology of the hewlett packard scanners. when initially bringing up the software, it lets you select several options; (1) text / graphics (2) input source ie scanner, fax file, disk file (3) automatic versus manual decomposition of the scanned image. i like manual decomposition since the software then lets me select which parts of the document i would like scanned, and in what order. once an image is scanned, you can bring up the pop-up image verification. the software gives you two "errors" at this point. blue which are words that were converted reliability, but do not match anything in the built-in dictionary. yellow shade, which are words that wordscan plus doesn't think it converted correctly at all. i have found that the software should give itself more credit. it is usually correct, instead of wrong. if a word is shaded blue, you can add it to your personal dictionary. the only problem is the personal dictionary will only handle about 200 words. i find this to be very limited, considering how many medical terms are not in a normal dictionary. after a document is converted, you can save it in a multitude of word processor formats. also any images that were captured can be stored in a seperate tiff or pcx file format. i was extremely impressed on the percent accuracy for fax files. i use hicnet medical newsletter page 1 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 an intel satisfaxtion card, which stores incoming faxs in a pcx/dcx format. while most of my faxes were received in "standard" mode (200x100 dpi), the accuracy of wordscan plus was excellent. overall, a very impressive product. the only fault i could find is the limitations of the size of the user dictionary. 200 specialized words is just too small. if anyone has any specific questions, please do not hesitate to send me email. hicnet medical newsletter page 2 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 centers for disease control and prevention - mmwr emerging infectious diseases source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon be eliminated as a public health problem (1), infectious diseases remain the major cause of death worldwide and a leading cause of illness and death in the united states. since the early 1970s, the u.s. public health system has been challenged by a myriad of newly identified pathogens and syndromes (e.g., escherichia coli o157:h7, hepatitis c virus, human immunodeficiency virus, legionnaires disease, lyme disease, and toxic shock syndrome). the incidences of many diseases widely presumed to be under control, such as cholera, malaria, and tuberculosis (tb), have increased in many areas. furthermore, control and prevention of infectious diseases are undermined by drug resistance in conditions such as gonorrhea, malaria, pneumococcal disease, salmonellosis, shigellosis, tb, and staphylococcal infections (2). emerging infections place a disproportionate burden on immunocompromised persons, those in institutional settings (e.g., hospitals and child day care centers), and minority and underserved populations. the substantial economic burden of emerging infections on the u.s. health-care system could be reduced by more effective surveillance systems and targeted control and prevention programs (3). this issue of mmwr introduces a new series, "emerging infectious diseases." future articles will address these diseases, as well as surveillance, control, and prevention efforts by health-care providers and public health officials. this first article updates the ongoing investigation of an outbreak of e. coli o157:h7 in the western united states (4). 1. burnet m. natural history of infectious disease. cambridge, england: cambridge university press, 1963. 2. kunin cm. resistance to antimicrobial drugs -- a worldwide calamity. ann intern med 1993;118:557-61. 3. lederberg j, shope re, oaks sc jr, eds. emerging infections: microbial threats to health in the united states. washington, dc: national academy press, 1992. hicnet medical newsletter page 3 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 4. cdc. preliminary report: foodborne outbreak of escherichia coli o157:h7 infections from hamburgers --western united states, 1993. mmwr 1993;42:85-6. hicnet medical newsletter page 4 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 update: multistate outbreak of escherichia coli o157:h7 infections from hamburgers -- western united states, 1992-1993 source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 from november 15, 1992, through february 28, 1993, more than 500 laboratory-confirmed infections with e. coli o157:h7 and four associated deaths occurred in four states -- washington, idaho, california, and nevada. this report summarizes the findings from an ongoing investigation (1) that identified a multistate outbreak resulting from consumption of hamburgers from one restaurant chain. washington on january 13, 1993, a physician reported to the washington department of health a cluster of children with hemolytic uremic syndrome (hus) and an increase in emergency room visits for bloody diarrhea. during january 16-17, a case-control study comparing 16 of the first cases of bloody diarrhea or postdiarrheal hus identified with age- and neighborhood-matched controls implicated eating at chain a restaurants during the week before symptom onset (matched odds ratio or=undefined; lower confidence limit=3.5). on january 18, a multistate recall of unused hamburger patties from chain a restaurants was initiated. as a result of publicity and case-finding efforts, during january- february 1993, 602 patients with bloody diarrhea or hus were reported to the state health department. a total of 477 persons had illnesses meeting the case definition of culture-confirmed e. coli o157:h7 infection or postdiarrheal hus (figure 1). of the 477 persons, 52 (11%) had close contact with a person with confirmed e. coli o157:h7 infection during the week preceding onset of symptoms. of the remaining 425 persons, 372 (88%) reported eating in a chain a restaurant during the 9 days preceding onset of symptoms. of the 338 patients who recalled what they ate in a chain a restaurant, 312 (92%) reported eating a regular-sized hamburger patty. onsets of illness peaked from january 17 through january 20. of the 477 casepatients, 144 (30%) were hospitalized; 30 developed hus, and three died. the median age of patients was 7.5 years (range: 0-74 years). idaho following the outbreak report from washington, the division of health, idaho department of health and welfare, identified 14 persons with culture- confirmed e. coli o157:h7 infection, with illness onset dates from december 11, 1992, through february 16, 1993 (figure 2a). four persons were hospitalized; one developed hus. during the week preceding illness onset, 13 (93%) had eaten at a chain a restaurant. california in late december, the san diego county department of health services was notified of a child with e. coli o157:h7 infection who subsequently died. active surveillance and record review then identified eight other persons with e. coli o157:h7 infections or hus from mid-november through mid-january 1993. four of the nine reportedly had recently eaten at a chain a restaurant and hicnet medical newsletter page 5 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 four at a chain b restaurant in san diego. after the washington outbreak was reported, reviews of medical records at five hospitals revealed an overall 27% increase in visits or admissions for diarrhea during december 1992 and january 1993 compared with the same period 1 year earlier. a case was defined as postdiarrheal hus, bloody diarrhea that was culture negative or not cultured, or any diarrheal illness in which stool culture yielded e. coli o157:h7, with onset from november 15, 1992, through january 31, 1993. illnesses of 34 patients met the case definition (figure 2b). the outbreak strain was identified in stool specimens of six patients. fourteen persons were hospitalized, seven developed hus, and one child died. the median age of case-patients was 10 years (range: 1-58 years). a case-control study of the first 25 case-patients identified and age- and sex-matched community controls implicated eating at a chain a restaurant in san diego (matched or=13; 95% confidence interval ci=1.7-99). a study comparing case-patients who ate at chain a restaurants with well meal companions implicated regular- sized hamburger patties (matched or=undefined; lower confidence limit=1.3). chain b was not statistically associated with illness. nevada on january 22, after receiving a report of a child with hus who had eaten at a local chain a restaurant, the clark county (las vegas) health district issued a press release requesting that persons with recent bloody diarrhea contact the health department. a case was defined as postdiarrheal hus, bloody diarrhea that was culture negative or not cultured, or any diarrheal illness with a stool culture yielding the washington strain of e. coli o157:h7, with onset from december 1, 1992, through february 7, 1993. because local laboratories were not using sorbitol macconkey (smac) medium to screen stools for e. coli o157:h7, this organism was not identified in any patient. after smac medium was distributed, the outbreak strain was detected in the stool of one patient 38 days after illness onset. of 58 persons whose illnesses met the case definition (figure 2c), nine were hospitalized; three developed hus. the median age was 30.5 years (range: 0-83 years). analysis of the first 21 patients identified and age- and sex- matched community controls implicated eating at a chain a restaurant during the week preceding illness onset (matched or=undefined; lower confidence limit=4.9). a case-control study using well meal companions of case-patients also implicated eating hamburgers at chain a (matched or=6.0; 95% ci=0.7- 49.8). other investigation findings during the outbreak, chain a restaurants in washington linked with cases primarily were serving regular-sized hamburger patties produced on november 19, 1992; some of the same meat was used in "jumbo" patties produced on november 20, 1992. the outbreak strain of e. coli o157:h7 was isolated from 11 lots of patties produced on those two dates; these lots had been distributed to restaurants in all states where illness occurred. approximately 272,672 (20%) of the implicated patties were recovered by the recall. a meat traceback by a cdc team identified five slaughter plants in the united states and one in canada as the likely sources of carcasses used in the hicnet medical newsletter page 6 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 contaminated lots of meat and identified potential control points for reducing the likelihood of contamination. the animals slaughtered in domestic slaughter plants were traced to farms and auctions in six western states. no one slaughter plant or farm was identified as the source. further investigation of cases related to secondary transmission in families and child day care settings is ongoing. reported by: m davis, dvm, c osaki, msph, seattle-king county dept of public health; d gordon, ms, mw hinds, md, snohomish health district, everett; k mottram, c winegar, mph, tacoma-pierce county health dept; ed avner, md, pi tarr, md, dept of pediatrics, d jardine, md, depts of anesthesiology and pediatrics, univ of washington school of medicine and children's hospital and medical center, seattle; m goldoft, md, b bartleson, mph; j lewis, jm kobayashi, md, state epidemiologist, washington dept of health. g billman, md, j bradley, md, children's hospital, san diego; s hunt, p tanner, res, m ginsberg, md, san diego county dept of health svcs; l barrett, dvm, sb werner, md, gw rutherford, iii, md, state epidemiologist, california dept of health svcs. rw jue, central district health dept, boise; h root, southwest district health dept, caldwell; d brothers, ma, rl chehey, ms, rh hudson, phd, div of health, idaho state public health laboratory, fr dixon, md, state epidemiologist, div of health, idaho dept of health and welfare. dj maxson, environmental epidemiology program, l empey, pa, o ravenholt, md, vh ueckart, dvm, clark county health district, las vegas; a disalvo, md, nevada state public health laboratory; ds kwalick, md, r salcido, mph, d brus, dvm, state epidemiologist, div of health, nevada state dept of human resources. center for food safety and applied nutrition, food and drug administration. food safety inspection svc, animal and plant health inspection svc, us dept of agriculture. div of field epidemiology, epidemiology program office; enteric diseases br, div of bacterial and mycotic diseases, national center for infectious diseases, cdc. editorial note: e. coli o157:h7 is a pathogenic gram-negative bacterium first identified as a cause of illness in 1982 during an outbreak of severe bloody diarrhea traced to contaminated hamburgers (2). this pathogen has since emerged as an important cause of both bloody diarrhea and hus, the most common cause of acute renal failure in children. outbreak investigations have linked most cases with the consumption of undercooked ground beef, although other food vehicles, including roast beef, raw milk, and apple cider, also have been implicated (3). preliminary data from a cdc 2-year, nationwide, multicenter study revealed that when stools were routinely cultured for e. coli o157:h7 that organism was isolated more frequently than shigella in four of 10 participating hospitals and was isolated from 7.8% of all bloody stools, a higher rate than for any other pathogen. infection with e. coli o157:h7 often is not recognized because most clinical laboratories do not routinely culture stools for this organism on hicnet medical newsletter page 7 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 smac medium, and many clinicians are unaware of the spectrum of illnesses associated with infection (4). the usual clinical manifestations are diarrhea (often bloody) and abdominal cramps; fever is infrequent. younger age groups and the elderly are at highest risk for clinical manifestations and complications. illness usually resolves after 6-8 days, but 2%-7% of patients develop hus, which is characterized by hemolytic anemia, thrombocytopenia, renal failure, and a death rate of 3%-5%. this report illustrates the difficulties in recognizing community outbreaks of e. coli o157:h7 in the absence of routine surveillance. despite the magnitude of this outbreak, the problem may not have been recognized in three states if the epidemiologic link had not been established in washington (1). clinical laboratories should routinely culture stool specimens from persons with bloody diarrhea or hus for e. coli o157:h7 using smac agar (5). when infections with e. coli o157:h7 are identified, they should be reported to local health departments for further evaluation and, if necessary, public health action to prevent further cases. e. coli o157:h7 lives in the intestines of healthy cattle, and can contaminate meat during slaughter. cdc is collaborating with the u.s. department of agriculture's food safety inspection service to identify critical control points in processing as a component of a program to reduce the likelihood of pathogens such as e. coli o157:h7 entering the meat supply. because slaughtering practices can result in contamination of raw meat with pathogens, and because the process of grinding beef may transfer pathogens from the surface of the meat to the interior, ground beef is likely to be internally contaminated. the optimal food protection practice is to cook ground beef thoroughly until the interior is no longer pink, and the juices are clear. in this outbreak, undercooking of hamburger patties likely played an important role. the food and drug administration (fda) has issued interim recommendations to increase the internal temperature for cooked hamburgers to 155 f (86.1 c) (fda, personal communication, 1993). regulatory actions stimulated by the outbreak described in this report and the recovery of thousands of contaminated patties before they could be consumed emphasize the value of rapid public health investigations of outbreaks. the public health impact and increasing frequency of isolation of this pathogen underscore the need for improved surveillance for infections caused by e. coli o157:h7 and for hus to better define the epidemiology of e. coli o157:h7. 1. cdc. preliminary report: foodborne outbreak of escherichia coli o157:h7 infections from hamburgers --western united states, 1993. mmwr 1993;42:85-6. 2. riley lw, remis rs, helgerson sd, et al. hemorrhagic colitis associated with a rare escherichia coli serotype. n engl j med 1983;308:681-5. hicnet medical newsletter page 8 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 3. griffin pm, tauxe rv. the epidemiology of infections caused by escherichia coli o157:h7, other enterohemorrhagic e. coli, and the associated hemolytic uremic syndrome. epidemiol rev 1991;13:60-98. 4. griffin pm, ostroff sm, tauxe rv, et al. illnesses associated with escherichia coli o157:h7 infections: a broad clinical spectrum. ann intern med 1988;109:705-12. 5. march sb, ratnam s. latex agglutination test hicnet medical newsletter page 9 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 use of smokeless tobacco among adults -- united states, source: mmwr 42(14) date: apr 16, 1993 consumption of moist snuff and other smokeless tobacco products in the united states almost tripled from 1972 through 1991 (1). long-term use of smokeless tobacco is associated with nicotine addiction and increased risk of oral cancer (2) -- the incidence of which could increase if young persons who currently use smokeless tobacco continue to use these products frequently (1). to monitor trends in the prevalence of use of smokeless tobacco products, cdc's 1991 national health interview survey-health promotion and disease prevention supplement (nhis-hpdp) collected information on snuff and chewing tobacco use and smoking from a representative sample of the u.s. civilian, noninstitutionalized population aged greater than or equal to 18 years. this report summarizes findings from this survey. the 1991 nhis-hpdp supplement asked "have you used snuff at least 20 times in your entire life?" and "do you use snuff now?" similar questions were asked about chewing tobacco use and cigarette smoking. current users of smokeless tobacco were defined as those who reported snuff or chewing tobacco use at least 20 times and who reported using snuff or chewing tobacco at the time of the interview; former users were defined as those who reported having used snuff or chewing tobacco at least 20 times and not using either at the time of the interview. ever users of smokeless tobacco included current and former users. current smokers were defined as those who reported smoking at least 100 cigarettes and who were currently smoking and former smokers as those who reported having smoked at least 100 cigarettes and who were not smoking now. ever smokers included current and former smokers. data on smokeless tobacco use were available for 43,732 persons aged greater than or equal to 18 years and were adjusted for nonresponse and weighted to provide national estimates. confidence intervals (cis) were calculated by using standard errors generated by the software for survey data analysis (sudaan) (3). in 1991, an estimated 5.3 million (2.9%) u.s. adults were current users of smokeless tobacco, including 4.8 million (5.6%) men and 533,000 (0.6%) women. for all categories of comparison, the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use was substantially higher among men. for men, the prevalence of use was highest among those aged 18-24 years (table 1); for women, the prevalence was highest among those aged greater than or equal to 75 years. the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use among men was highest among american indians/alaskan natives and whites; the prevalence among women was highest among american indians/alaskan natives and blacks. among both men and women, prevalence of smokeless tobacco use declined with increasing education. prevalence was substantially higher among residents of the southern united states and in rural areas. although the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use was higher among hicnet medical newsletter page 10 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 men and women below the poverty level, * this difference was significant only for women (p less than 0.05) (table 1). among men, the prevalence of current use of snuff was highest among those aged 18-44 years but varied considerably by age; the prevalence of use of chewing tobacco was more evenly distributed by age group (table 2). although women rarely used smokeless tobacco, the prevalence of snuff use was highest among those aged greater than or equal to 75 years. an estimated 7.9 million (4.4% 95% ci=4.1-4.6) adults reported being former smokeless tobacco users. among ever users, the proportion who were former smokeless tobacco users was 59.9% (95% ci=57.7-62.1). among persons aged 18-24 years, the proportion of former users was lower among snuff users (56.2% 95% ci=49.4-63.0) than among chewing tobacco users (70.4% 95% ci=64.2-76.6). among persons aged 45-64 years, the proportion of former users was similar for snuff (68.9% 95% ci=63.1-74.7) and chewing tobacco (73.5% 95% ci=68.9-78.1). among current users of smokeless tobacco, 22.9% (95% ci=19.9-26.0) currently smoked, 33.3% (95% ci=30.0-36.5) formerly smoked, and 43.8% (95% ci=39.9-47.7) never smoked. in comparison, among current smokers, 2.6% (95% ci=2.3-3.0) were current users of smokeless tobacco. daily use of smokeless tobacco was more common among snuff users (67.3% 95% ci=63.2-71.4) than among chewing tobacco users (45.1% 95% ci=40.6- 49.6). reported by: office on smoking and health, national center for chronic disease prevention and health promotion; div of health interview statistics, national center for health statistics, cdc. editorial note: the findings in this report indicate that the use of smokeless tobacco was highest among young males. adolescent and young adult males, in particular, are the target of marketing strategies by tobacco companies that link smokeless tobacco with athletic performance and virility. use of oral snuff has risen markedly among professional baseball players, encouraging this behavior among adolescent and young adult males and increasing their risk for nicotine addiction, oral cancer, and other mouth disorders (4). differences in the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use among racial/ethnic groups may be influenced by differences in educational levels and socioeconomic status as well as social and cultural phenomena that require further explanation. for example, targeted marketing practices may play a role in maintaining or increasing prevalence among some groups, and affecting the differential initiation of smokeless tobacco use by young persons (5,6). in this report, one concern is that nearly one fourth of current smokeless tobacco users also smoke cigarettes. in the 1991 nhis-hpdp, the prevalence of cigarette smoking was higher among former smokeless tobacco users than among current and never smokeless tobacco users. in a previous study among college students, 18% of current smokeless tobacco users smoked hicnet medical newsletter page 11 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 occasionally (7). in addition, approximately 7% of adults who formerly smoked reported substituting other tobacco products for cigarettes in an effort to stop smoking (8). health-care providers should recognize the potential health implications of concurrent smokeless tobacco and cigarette use. the national health objectives for the year 2000 have established special population target groups for the reduction of the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use, including males aged 12-24 years (to no more than 4% by the year 2000 objective 3.9) and american indian/alaskan native youth (to no more than 10% by the year 2000 objective 3.9a) (9). strategies to lower the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use include continued monitoring of smokeless tobacco use, integrating smoking and smokeless tobacco-control efforts, enforcing laws that restrict minors' access to tobacco, making excise taxes commensurate with those on cigarettes, encouraging health-care providers to routinely provide cessation advice and follow-up, providing school-based prevention and cessation interventions, and adopting policies that prohibit tobacco use on school property and at school-sponsored events (5). 1. office of evaluations and inspections. spit tobacco and youth. washington, dc: us department of health and human services, office of the inspector general, 1992; dhhs publication no. (oei-06)92-00500. 2. national institutes of health. the health consequences of using smokeless tobacco: a report of the advisory committee to the surgeon general. bethesda, maryland: us department of health and human services, public health service, 1986; dhhs publication no. (nih)86-2874. 3. shah bv. software for survey data analysis (sudaan) version 5.30 software documentation. research triangle park, north carolina: research triangle institute, 1989. 4. connolly gn, orleans ct, blum a. snuffing tobacco out of sport. am j public health 1992;82:351-3. 5. national cancer institute. smokeless tobacco or health: an international perspective. bethesda, maryland: us department of health and human services, public health service, national institutes of health, 1992; dhhs publication no. (nih)92-3461. 6. foreyt jp, jackson as, squires wg, hartung gh, murray td, gotto am. psychological profile of college students who use smokeless tobacco. addict behav 1993;18:107-16. 7. glover ed, laflin m, edwards sw. age of initiation and switching patterns hicnet medical newsletter page 12 volume 6, number 10 april 20, 1993 between smokeless tobacco and cigarettes among college students in the united states. am j public health 1989;79:207-8. 8. cdc. tobacco use in 1986: methods and tabulations from adult use of tobacco survey. rockville, maryland: us department of health and human services, public health service, cdc, 1990; dhhs publication no. (om)90-2004. 9. public health service. healthy people 2000: national health promotion and disease prevention objectives. washington, dc: us department of health and human services, public health service, 1991; dhhs publication no. (phs)91- --------- end of part 1 ------------ internet: david@stat.com fax: +1 (602) 451-1165 bitnet: atw1h@asuacad fidonet=> 1:114/15 amateur packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na 
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 can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it exceeds the starting weight? or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers? not one, but two: obesity in europe 88, proceedings of the 1st european congress on obesity annals of ny acad. sci. 1987 hmmm. these don't look like references to me. is passive-aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound? :-) i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned, and benefit therefrom. chuck forsberg wa7kgx ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf author of ymodem, zmodem, professional-yam, zcomm, and dsz omen technology inc "the high reliability software" 17505-v nw sauvie is rd portland or 97231 503-621-3406 
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 gb> from: geb@cs.pitt.edu (gordon banks) gb> >(i am excepting migraine, which is arguably neurologic). gb> i hope you meant "inarguably". given the choice, i would rather argue <g>. no arguments about migranous aura; in fact, current best evidence is that aura is intrinsicially neuronal (a la spreading depression of leao) rather than vascular (something causing vasoconstriction and secondary neuronal ischemia). migraine without aura, however, is a fuzzier issue. there do not seem to be objectively measurable changes in brain function. the copenhagen mafia (lauritzen, olesen, et al) have done local cbf studies on migraine without aura, and (unlike migraine with aura, but like tension-type) they found no changes in lcbf. from one (absurd) perspective, *all* pain is neurologic, because in the absence of a nervous system, there would not be pain. from another (tautologic) perspective, any disease is in the domain of the specialty that treats it. neurologists treat headache, therefore (at least in the usa) headache is neurologic. whether neurologic or not, nobody would disagree that disabling headaches are common. perhaps my fee-for-service neurologic colleagues, scrounging for cases, want all the headache patients they can get. working on a salary, however, i would rather not fill my office with patients holding their heads in pain. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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 dyer is beyond rude. i'll drink to that. yeah, yeah, yeah. i didn't threaten to rip your lips off, did i? there have been and always will be people who are blinded by their own knowledge and unopen to anything that isn't already established. given what the medical community doesn't know, i'm surprised that he has this outlook. nice to see steve still has his high and almighty intellectual prowess in tact. for the record, i have had several outbreaks of thrush during the several past few years, with no indication of immunosuppression or nutritional deficiencies. i had not taken any antobiotics. listen: thrush is a recognized clinical syndrome with definite characteristics. if you have thrush, you have thrush, because you can see the lesions and do a culture and when you treat it, it generally responds well, if you're not otherwise immunocompromised. noring's anal-retentive idee fixe on having a fungal infection in his sinuses is not even in the same category here, nor are these walking neurasthenics who are convinced they have "candida" from reading a quack book. yawn... my dentist (who sees a fair amount of thrush) recommended acidophilous: after i began taking acidophilous on a daily basis, the outbreaks ceased. when i quit taking the acidophilous, the outbreaks periodically resumed. i resumed taking the acidophilous with no further outbreaks since then. exactly my question to you, steve. what's your point? this person had one, you didn't steve dyer nice to see that some things never change, steve, if you aren't being ignorant in one group [*.alternative] you're into another. one positive thing came out of it, you are no longer bothering the folks in *.alternative, it's just a shame that these people have to suffer so that others may breath freely. sorry for wasting bandwidth folks. don't forget to bow down once every second day, and to offer your first born to the almight omniscient, omnipotent, mr. steve. 
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 can anyone provide information on cs chemical agent--the tear gas used recently in waco. just what is it chemically, and what are its effects on the body? dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov | regards, | hughes stx | code 926.9 gsfc | | doug caprette | lanham, maryland | greenbelt, md 20771 | "a path is laid one stone at a time" -- the giant 
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 and to add further fuel to the flame war, i read about 20 years ago that the "natural" msg - extracted from the sources you mention above - does not cause the reported aftereffects; it's only that nasty "artificial" msg - extracted from coal tar or whatever - that causes chinese restaurant syndrome. i find this pretty hard to believe; has anyone else heard it? msg is mono sodium glutamate, a fairly straight forward compound. if it is pure, the source should not be a problem. your comment suggests that impurities may be the cause. my experience of msg effects (as part of a double blind study) was that the pure stuff caused me some rather severe effects. i was under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that most of the msg on our foods was made from processing sugar beets. is this not true? are there other sources of msg? soya bean, fermented cheeses, mushrooms all contain msg. i am one of those folx who react, sometimes strongly, to msg. however, i also react strongly to sodium chloride (table salt) in excess. each causes different symptoms except for the common one of rapid heartbeat and an uncomfortable feeling of pressure in my chest, upper left quadrant. the symptoms i had were numbness of jaw muscles in the first instance followed by the arms then the legs, headache, lethargy and unable to keep awake. i think it may well affect people differently. 
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 i don't know if anyone knows about this topic: electrical heart failure. one of my friends has had to go to the doctor because he had chest pains. the doc said it was arythmia. so he had to go to a new york hospital for a lot of money to get treated. his doctors said that he could die from it, and the medication caused cancer ( that he was taking). well, i suggested that he run, excersize and eat more, ( he is very skinny) but he says that has nothing to do with it. does anyone know what causes arythmia and how it can be treated? 
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 even properly controlled studies (e.g. double blind studies) are almost useless if you are trying to prove that something does not affect anyone. -- and -- the mass of anectdotal evidence, combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis, makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events. good grief; has no one ever heard of biostatistics?? the university of washington (plus 3 or 4 others [harvard, unc]) has a department and advanced degree program in biostatistics. my wife has an ms biostat, and there are plenty of mds, phds, and postdocs doing biostatistical work. people do this for a living. really bright people study for decades to do this sort of study well. anecedotal evidence is worthless. even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years, and who swear it is effective, are often suprised at the results of clinical trials. whether or not msg causes describable, reportable, documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover. the last study on which my wife worked employed 200 nurses, 100 doctors, and a dozen ph.ds at one university and at 70 hospitals in five nations. i would think the msg question could be settled by one lowly biostat ms student in a thesis. --bruce 
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 i am interested in trying this "desensitization" (?) method against hay fever. what is the state of affairs about this. i went to a doctor and paid $85 for a 10 minute interview + 3 scratches, leading to the diagnostic that i am allergic to (june and timothy) grass. i believe this. from now on it looks like 2 shots per week for 6 months followed by 1 shot per month or so. each shot costs $20. talking about soaring costs and the health care system, i would call that a racket. we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here, but the garbage which grows behind the doctor's office. apart from this issue, i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever. is that right? thanks for information. 
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 someone wrote in expressing concern about getting aids from acupuncture needles..... unless your friend is sharing fluids with their acupuncturist who themselves has aids..it is unlikely (not impossible) they will get aids from acupuncture needles. generally, even if accidently inoculated, the normal immune response should be enough to effectively handle the minimal contaminant involved with acupuncture needle insertion. isn't this what hiv is about - the "normal immune response" to an exposure? most acupuncturists use disposable needles...use once and throw away. i had electrical pulse nerve testing done a while back. the needles were taken from a dirty drawer in an instrument cart and were most certainly not sterile or even clean for that matter. more than likely they were fresh from the previous patient. i was concerned, but i kept my mouth shut. i probably should have raised hell! any comments? no excuses. 
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 what resources and services are available on internet/bitnet which would be of interest to hospitals and other medical care providers? i'm interested in anything relelvant, including institutions and businesses of interest to the medical profession on internet, special services such as online access to libraries or diagnostic information, etc. etc. please reply directly to andy@maine.edu 
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 i am looking for a rat cell line of adrenal gland / cortical cell -type. i have been looking at atcc without success and would very much appreciate any thank you for reading this. christophe roos institute of biotechnology fax: +358 0 4346028 pobox 45, valimotie 7 e-mail: christophe.roos@helsinki.fi university of helsinki x-400: /g=christophe/s=roos sf-00014 finland /o=helsinki/a=fumail/c=fi 
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 : in article <1993apr12.201056.20753@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu ( : >now, i'm not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose; it's very : >hard to culture bb in most cases. the point is that dr. n has developed a : >"feel" for what is and what isn't ld. this comes from years of experience. : >no serology can match that. unfortunately, some would call dr. n a "quack" : >and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck. : why do you think he would be called a quack? the quacks don't do cultures. : they poo-poo doing more lab tests: "this is lyme, believe me, i've : seen it many times. the lab tests aren't accurate. we'll treat it : now." also, is dr. n's practice almost exclusively devoted to treating : lyme patients? i don't know *any* orthopedic surgeons who fit this : pattern. they are usually gps. no, he does not exclusively treat ld patients. however, in some parts of the country, you don't need to be known as an ld "specialist" to see a large number of ld patients walk through your office. given the huge problem of underdiagnosis, orthopedists encounter late manifestations of the disease just about every day in their regular practices. dr. n. told me that last year, he sent between 2 and 5 patients a week to the ld specialists... and he is not the only orthopedists in the town. let's say that only 2 people per week actually have ld. that means at the *very minimum* 104 people in our town (and immediate area) develop late stage manifestations of ld *every year*. add in the folks who were diagnosed by neurologists, rheumatologists, gps, etc, and you can see what kind of problem we have. no wonder just about everybody in town personally knows an ld he refers most patients to ld specialists, but in extreme cases he puts the patient on medication immediately to minimize the damage (in most cases, to the knees). gordon is correct when he states that most ld specialists are gps. marc c. gabriel - u.c. box 545 - (215) 882-0138 lehigh university 
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 <>hismanal (astemizole) is most definitely linked to weight gain. <>it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect, <>and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly <>doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and so tends not to cause <>drowsiness. <the original poster mentioned fatigue. i had that too, but it was <mostly due to the really bizarre dreams i was having -- i wasn't getting <any rest. my doctor said that was a common reaction. if astemizole <doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, how does it cause that side <effect? any ideas? it made me really bitchy for the first few weeks. now that i think about it i was having some bizarre dreams too. my doctor said it made him feel like he had to be doing something all the time. but if you keep taking it, after a few weeks these symptoms seem to go away, he said hang in there. i did and they did. 
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 responds well, if you're not otherwise immunocompromised. noring's anal-retentive idee fixe on having a fungal infection in his sinuses is not even in the same category here, nor are these walking neurasthenics who are convinced they have "candida" from reading a quack book. speaking of which, has anyone else been impressed with how much the descriptions of neurasthenia published a century ago sound like cfs? gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it exceeds the starting weight? or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers? annals of ny acad. sci. 1987 hmmm. these don't look like references to me. is passive-aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound? :-) i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned, and benefit therefrom. good story, chuck, but it won't wash. i have read the ny acad sci one (and have it). this am i couldn't find any reference to "weight rebound". i'm not saying it isn't there, but since you cited it, it is your responsibility to show me where it is in there. there is no index. i suspect you overstepped your knowledge base, as usual. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 the mass of anectdotal evidence, combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis, makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events. the following is from a critique of a "60 minutes" presentation on msg which was aired on november 3rd, 1991. the critique comes from the tufts diet and nutrition letter, february 1992. [...edited for brevity...] "chances are good that if you watched '60 minutes' last november 3rd [1991], you came away feeling msg is bad for you. [...] in the segment entitled 'no msg,' for instance, show host ed bradley makes alarming statements without adequately substantiating them ('millions are suffering a host of symptoms, and some get violently sick'); peppers his report with sensational but clinically unproven personal testimony...; and speaks of studies on msg that make the substance seem harmful without explaining just how inconclusive those studies are. consider his making reference at the beginning of the program to a study conducted at the eastern virginia medical school in order to back up his comment that there is 'a lot of evidence' that msg, a flavor enhancer in chinese and other asian cuisines as well as in many supermarket items, causes headaches. what he does not make reference to is the fact that the study was performed not on humans but on rabbits. one of the researchers who conducted the study, pharmacologist patricia williams, ph.d., says it certainly is conceivable that a small minority of people are sensitive enough to msg to get headaches from it. 'but,' she explains, 'the show probably overemphasized the extent of the problem.' a second lapse comes with mention of dr. john olney, a professor at the washington university school of medicine who, mr. bradley remarks, 'says that his 20 years of research with laboratory animals shows msg is a hazard for developing youngsters' because it poses a threat of irreversible brain damage. dr. olney's research with lab animals does not 'show' anything about human in fact, only under extreme circumsrtances did dr. olney's experiments ever bring about any brain damage: when he injected extremely high doses of msg into rodents, completely bypassing their digestive tracts and entering their bloodstreams more directly, and when he used tubes to force-feed huge amounts of the substance to very young animals on an empty stomach. of course, neither of those procedures occurs with humans; they simply take in msg with food. and most of what they take in is broken down by enzymes in the wall of the small intestine, so that very little reaches the bloodstream -- much to little, in fact, for human blood levels of msg to come anywhere near the high concentrations found in dr. olney's lab animals..... the world health organization appears to be very much aware of that fact. and so does the european communities' scientific committee for food....both, after examining numerous studies, have concluded that msg is safe. their determination makes sense, considering that msg has never been proven to cause all the symptoms that have been attributed to it -- headaches, swelling, a tightness in the chest, and a burning sensation, among others. in fact, the most fail-safe of clinical studies, the double-blind study..., has consistently exonerated the much-maligned substance. that's quite fortunate since the alleged hazardous component of monosodium glutamate, glutamate, enters our systems whenever we eat any food that contains protein. the reason is that one of the amino acids that make up protein, glutamic acid, is broken down into glutamate during digestion. it's a breakdown that occurs frequently. glutamic acid is the most abundant of the 20 or so amino acids in the diet. it makes up about 15 percent of the protein in flesh foods, 20 percent in milk, 25 percent in corn, and 29 percent in whole wheat. that doesn't mean it's entirely unimaginable that a small number of people have trouble metabolizing msg properly and are therefore sensitive to it...the consensus reached by large, international professional organizations [is that msg is safe], the same consensus reached by the fda and the biomedical community at large." -rich young (these are not kodak's opinions.) 
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 a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn's but she can't seem to eat certain foods, such as fresh vegetables, without discomfort, and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence. her question is: are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn's disease ? (i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric). thanks in advance, john eyles jge@cs.unc.edu if she is having problems with fresh vegetables, the guess is that there is some obstruction of the intestine. without knowing more it is not possible to say whether the obstruction is permanent due to scarring, or temporary due to swelling of inflammed intestine. in general, there are no dietary limitations in patients with crohn's except as they relate to obstruction. there is no evidence that any foods will bring on recurrence of crohn's. it is important to distinguish recurrence from recurrent symptoms. a physician would think of new inflammation as recurrence, while pains from raw veggies just imply a narrowing of the your friend should look into membership in the crohn's and colitis foundation of america. 1-800-932-2423 good luck to your friend. steve holland 
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 i can not believe the way this thread on candida(yeast) has progressed. steve dyer and i have been exchanging words over the same topic in sci. med. nutrition when he displayed his typical reserve and attacked a women poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist. calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well. let me tell you who the quacks really are, these are the physicans who have no idea how the human body interacts with it's environment and how that balance can be altered by diet and antibiotics. these are the physicians who dismiss their patients with difficult symptomatology and make them go from doctor to doctor to find relief(like elaine in sci. med. nutrition) and then when they find one that solves their problem, the rest start yelling quack. could it just be professional jealousy? i couldn't help elaine or jon but somebody else did. could they know more than me? no way, they must be a i've been teaching a human nutrition course for medical students for over ten years now and guess who the most receptive students are? those that were raised on farms and saw first-hand the effect of diet on the health of their farm animals and those students who had made a dramatic diet change prior to entering medical school(switched to the vegan diet). typically, this is about 1/3 of my class of 90 students. those not interested in nutrition either tune me out or just stop coming to class. that's okay because i know that some of what i'm teaching is going to stick and there will be at least a few "enlightened" physicians practicing in the u.s. it's really too bad that most u.s. medical schools don't cover nutrition because if they did, candida would not be viewed as a non-disease by so many in the medical profession. in animal husbandry, an animal is reinnoculated with "good" bacteria after antibiotics are stopped. medicine has decided that since humans do not have a ruminant stomach, no such reinnoculation with "good" bacteria is needed after coming off a braod spectrum antibiotic. humans have all kinds of different organisms living in the gi system(mouth, stomach, small and large intestine), sinuses, vagina and on the skin. these are nonpathogenic because they do not cause disease in people unless the immune system is compromised. they are also called nonpathogens because unlike the pathogenic organisms that cause human disease, they do not produce toxins as they live out their merry existence in and on our body. but any of these organisms will be considered pathogenic if it manages to take up residence within the body. a poor mucus membrane barrier can let this happen and vitamin a is mainly responsible for setting up this barrier. steve got real upset with elaine's doctor because he was using anti-fungals and vitamin a for her gi problems. if steve really understoood what vitamin a does in the body, he would not(or at least should not) be calling elaine's doctor a quack. here is a brief primer on yeast. yeast infections, as they are commonly called, are not truely caused by yeasts. the most common organism responsible for this type of infection is candida albicans or monilia which is actually a yeast-like fungus. an infection caused by this organism is called candidiasis. candidiasis is a very rare occurance because, like an e. coli infection, it requires that the host immune system be severly depressed. candida is frequently found on the skin and all of the mucous membranes of normal healthy people and it rarely becomes a problem unless some predisposing factor is present such as a high blood glucose level(diabetes) or an oral course of antibiotics has been used. in diabetics, their secretions contain much higher amounts of glucose. candida, unlike bacteria, is very limited in it's food(fuel) selection. without glucose, it can not grow, it just barely survives. if it gets access to a lot of glucose, it blooms and over rides the other organisms living with it in the sinuses, gi tract or vagina. in diabetics, skin lesions can also foster a good bloom site for these little buggers. the bloom is usually just a minor irritant in most people but some people do really develop a bad inflammatory process at the mucus membrane or skin bloom site. whether this is an allergic like reaction to the candida or not isn't certain. when the bloom is in the vagina or on the skin, it can be easliy seen and some doctors do then try to "treat" it. if it's internal, only symptoms can be used and these symptoms are pretty candida is kept in check in most people by the normal bacterial flora in the sinuses, the gi tract(mouth, stomach and intestines) and in the vaginal tract which compete with it for food. the human immune system ususally does not bother itself with these(nonpathogenic organisms) unless they broach the mucus membrane "barrier". if they do, an inflammatory response will be set up. most americans are not getting enough vitamin a from their diets. about 30% of all american's die with less vitamin a than they were born with(u.s. autopsy studies). while this low level of vitamin a does not cause pathology(blindness) it does impair the mucus membrane barrier system. this would then be a predisposing factor for a strong inflammatory response after a candida bloom. while diabetics can suffer from a candida "bloom" the most common cause of this type of bloom is the use of broad spectrum antibiotics which knock down many different kinds of bacteria in the body and remove the main competition for candida as far as food is concerned. while drugs are available to handle candida, many patients find that their doctor will not use them unless there is evidence of a systemic infection. the toxicity of the anti-fungal drugs does warrant some caution. but if the gi or sinus inflammation is suspected to be candida(and recent use of a broad spectrum antibiotic is the smoking gun), then anti-fungal use should be approrpriate just as the anti-fungal creams are an appropriate treatment for recurring vaginal yeast infections, in spite of what mr. steve dyer says. but even in patients being given the anti-fungals, the irritation caused by the excessive candida bloom in the sinus, gi tract or the vagina tends to return after drug treatment is discontinued unless the underlying cause of the problem is addressed(lack of a "good" bacterial flora in the body and/or poor mucus membrane barrier). lactobacillus acidophilus is the most effective therapy for candida overgrowth. from it's name, it is an acid loving organism and it sets up an acidic condition were it grows. candida can not grow very well in an acidic environment. in the vagina, l. acidophilius is the predominate bacteria(unless you are hit with broad spectrum antibiotics). in the gi system, the ano-rectal region seems to be a particularly good reservoir for candida and the use of pantyhose by many women creates a very favorable environment around the rectum for transfer(through moisture and humidity) of candida to the vaginal tract. one of the most effctive ways to minimmize this transfer is to wear undyed cotton underwear. if the bloom occurs in the anal area, the burning, swelling, pain and even blood discharge make many patients think that they have hemorroids. if the bloom manages to move further up the gi tract, very diffuse symptomatology occurs(abdominal discomfort and blood in the stool). this positive stool for occult blood is what sent elaine to her family doctor in the first place. after extensive testing, he told her that there was nothing wrong but her gut still hurt. on to another doctor, and so on. richard kaplan has told me throiugh e-mail that he considers occult blood tests in stool specimens to be a waste of time and money because of the very large number of false positives(candida blooms guys?). if my gut hurt me on a constant basis, i would want it fixed. yes it's nice to know that i don't have colon cancer but what then is causing my distress? when i finally find a doctor who treats me and gets me 90% better, steve dyer calls him a quack. candida prefers a slightly alkaline environment while bacteria tend to prefer a slightly acidic environment. the vagina becomes alkaline during a woman's period and this is often when candida blooms in the vagina. vinegar and water douches are the best way of dealing with vaginal problems. many women have also gotten relief from the introduction of lactobacillus directly into the vaginal tract(i would want to be sure of the purity of the product before trying this). my wife had this vagina problem after going on birth control pills and searched for over a year until she found a gynocologist who solved the problem rather than just writting scripts for anti-fungal creams. this was a woman gynocologist who had had the same problem(recurring vaginal yeast infections). this m.d. did some digging and came up with an acetic acid and l. acidophilis douche which she used in your office to keep it sterile. after three treatments, sex returned to our marraige. i have often wondered what an m.d. with chronic gi distress or sinus problems would do about the problem that he tells his patients is a non-existent syndrome. the nonpathogenic bacteria l. acidophilus is an acid producing bacteria which is the most common bacteria found in the vaginal tract of healthy women. if taken orally, it can also become a major bacteria in the gut. through aresol sprays, it has also been used to innoculate the sinus membranes. but before this innoculation occurs, the mucus membrane barrier system needs to be strengthened. this is accomplished by vitamin a, vitamin c and some of the b-complex vitamins. diet surveys repeatedly show that americans are not getting enough b6 and folate. these are probably the segement of the population that will have the greatest problem with this non-existent disorder(candida blooms after antibiotic therapy). some of the above material was obtained from "natural healing" by mark bricklin, published by rodale press, as well as notes from my human nutrition course. i will be posting a discussion of vitamin a sometime in the future, along with reference citings to point out the extremely important role that vitamin a plays in the mucus membrane defense system in the body and why vitamin a should be effective in dealing with candida blooms. another effective dietary treatment is to restrict carbohydrate intake during the treatment phase, this is especially important if the gi system is involved. if candida can not get glucose, it's not going to out grow the bacteria and you then give bacteria, which can use amino acids and fatty acids for energy, a chance to take over and keep the candida in check once carbohydrate is returned to the gut. if steve and some of the other nay-sayers want to jump all over this post, fine. i jumped all over steve in sci. med. nutrition because he verbably accosted a poster who was seeking advice about her doctor's use of vitamin a and anti-fungals for a candida bloom in her gut. people seeking advice from newsnet should not be treated this way. those of us giving of our time and knowledge can slug it out to our heart's content. if you saved your venom for me steve and left the helpless posters who are timidly seeking help alone, i wouldn't have a problem with your behavior. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine 1111 west 17th st. tulsa, ok. 74107 "without discourse, there is no remembering, without remembering, there is no learning, without learning, there is only ignorance". 
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 i was wondering if anyone had any information about molluscous contagiosem. i acquired it, and fortunately got rid of it, but the question still lingers in my mind: where did it come from? the little bit of info that i have received about it in the past states that it can be transmitted sexually, but also occurs in small children on the hands, feet and genitalia. any information will be greatly appreciated. "i grow old, i grow old; i shall wear my trousers rolled." -t. s. eliot 
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 the reason i'm posting this article to this newsgroup is to: 1. gather any information about this disorder from anyone who might have recently been *e*ffected by it ( from being associated with it or actually having this disorder ) and 2. help me find out where i can access any medical literature associated with seizures over the internet. i tried to e-mail you but it bounced back. please e-mail me and i will give you someone's name who might be very helpful. you might also post your message to misc.kids. sastls@mvs.sas.com 
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 i had electrical pulse nerve testing done a while back. the needles were taken from a dirty drawer in an instrument cart and were most certainly not sterile or even clean for that matter. more than likely they were fresh from the previous patient. i was concerned, but i kept my mouth shut. i probably should have raised hell! could you describe in more detail the above procedure? i've never heard about it. and yes, if they pierced you with the needles you probably should have euclid k. standard disclaimers apply "it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model [of light] to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace." --hudson & nelson (_university_physics_) 
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 does anybody know of any information regarding the implementaion of total quality management, quality control, quality assurance in the delivery of health care service. i would appreciate any information. if there is enough interest, i will post the responses. thank you abhin singla ms bioe, mba, md president ac medcomp inc dr singla, you might contact kaiser health plan either in the area closest to you or at the central office in oakland ca. we have been doing qa, qos, concurrent ur, and tqm for some time now in the hawaii region, and i suspect it is nationwide in the system. len howard md 
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 hi all, would anyone out there in 'net-land' happen to have an authentic, sure-fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro's and souvlaki? -=< tron >=- e-mail: tron@locus.com *vidi, vici, veni* 
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 here is the tollfree hotline for the epilepsy foundation of america - 1-800-efa-1000. they will be able to answer your questions and send you information and references on seizure types, medication, etc. they can also give you references for a pediatric neorologist in your area. also ask for the number of your local foundation who can put you in touch with a parent support group and social workers. good luck. 
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 i had allergy shots for about four years starting as a sophomore in high school. before that, i used to get bloody noses, nighttime asthma attacks, and eyes so itchy i couldn't get to sleep. after about 6 months on the shots, most of those symptoms were gone, and they haven't come back. i stopped getting the shots (due more to laziness than planning) in college. my allergies got a little worse after that, but are still nowhere near as bad as they used to be. so yes, the shots do work. 
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 i live at sea-level, and am called-upon to travel to high-altitude cities quite frequently, on business. the cities in question are at 7000 to 9000 feet of altitude. one of them especially is very polluted... often i feel faint the first two or three days. i feel lightheaded, and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea-level. also, it is very dry in these cities, so i will tend to drink a lot of water, and keep away from dehydrating drinks, such as those containing caffeine or alcohol. thing is, i still have symptoms. how can i ensure that my short trips there (no, i don't usually have a week to acclimatize) are as comfortable as possible? is there something else that i could do? i saw a lifetime medical television show a few months back on travel medicine. it briefly mentioned some drugs which when started two or three days before getting to altitude could assist in acclimitazation. unfortunately all that i can recall is that the drug stimulated breathing at night??? i don't know if that makes sense, it seems to me that the new drug which stimulates red blood cell production would be a more logical approach, erythropoiten (sp?). alas, i didn't record the program, but wish i had, since i live at over 7000ft. and my mother gets sick when visiting. please let me know if you get more informative responses. phone: (505) 845-7561 martin e. lewitt my opinions are domain: lewitt@ncube.com p.o. box 513 my own, not my sandia: melewitt@cs.sandia.gov sandia park, nm 87047-0513 employer's. 
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 we are just completing a project on nebuliser performance, and have a wealth of data on particle size and output which we are going to use to adjudicate a contract next week. although the output data is easy for us to present, there seems to be little concensus on the optimum diameter of the nebulised droplets for straightforward inhalation therapy (eg: for asthmatics). some say that the droplets must be smaller than 5 microns, whilst others say that if they are too small they will not be effective. anyone up on this topic who could summarise the current status ? pete phillips, deputy director, surgical materials testing lab, bridgend general hospital, s. wales. 0656-652166 pete@smtl.demon.co.uk "the four horse oppressors of the apocalypse were nutritional deprivation, state of belligerency, widespread transmittable condition and terminal inconvenience" - official politically correct dictionary 
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 the best way of self injection is to use the right size needle and choose the correct spot. for streptomycin, usually given intra muscularly, use a thin needle (23/24 guage) and select a spot on the upper, outer thigh (no major nerves or blood vessels there). clean the area with antiseptic before injection, and after. make sure to inject deeply (a different kind of pain is felt when the needle enters the muscle - contrasted to the 'prick' when it pierces the skin). ps: try to go to a doctor. self-treatment and self-injection should be avoided as far as possible. 
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 anecedotal evidence is worthless. even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years, and who swear it is effective, are often suprised at the results of clinical trials. whether or not msg causes describable, reportable, documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover. i tend to disagree- i think anecdotal evidence, provided there is a lot of it, and it is fairly consistent, will is very important. first, it points to the necessity of doing a study, and second, it at least says that the effects are all psychological (or possibly allergy in this case). as i've pointed out before, pyschological effects are no less real than other effects. one person's "make-believe" can easily be another person's reality. using psychadelic drugs in a bizarre and twisted example, the hallucinations one person experiences on an acid trip cannot be guaranteed to another person on an acid trip- there is no clinical evidence that those effects are always going to happen. anyhow, that was a pretty lame example, but hopefully i made my point- it's all a matter of perception, and as long as someone ingesting msg perceives it as causing bad effects, then s/he can definitely experience those affects. on the other hand, it could just be an allergy to the food it's in, or something. still, anecdotal evidence is not worthless- it's the stuff that leads to the study being done. 
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 alexis perry asked if low blood potassium could be dangerous. yes. 
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 many of these cereals are corn-based. after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn (contains tryptophan) and seizures. the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder, not cause it. check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based. i'd be interested. years ago when i was an intern, an obese young woman was brought into the er comatose after having been reported to have grand mal seizures why attending a "corn festival". we pumped her stomach and obtained what seemed like a couple of liters of corn, much of it intact kernals. after a few hours she woke up and was fine. i was tempted to sign her out as "acute corn intoxication." gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and how about contaminants on the corn, e.g. aflatoxin??? :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it exceeds the starting weight? or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers? annals of ny acad. sci. 1987 hmmm. these don't look like references to me. is passive-aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound? :-) i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned, and benefit therefrom. good story, chuck, but it won't wash. i have read the ny acad sci one (and have it). this am i couldn't find any reference to "weight rebound". i'm not saying it isn't there, but since you cited it, it is your responsibility to show me where it is in there. there is no index. i suspect you overstepped your knowledge base, as usual. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." it's on page 315, about 2 1/2 inches up from the bottom and an inch in from the right. at least we know what some people *haven't* read and remembered. chuck forsberg wa7kgx ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf author of ymodem, zmodem, professional-yam, zcomm, and dsz omen technology inc "the high reliability software" 17505-v nw sauvie is rd portland or 97231 503-621-3406 
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 i've just returned from a visit with my ob/gyn and i have a few concerns that maybe y'all can help me with. i've been seeing her every 4 weeks for the past few months (i'm at week 28) and during the last 2 visits i've gained 9 to 9 1/2 pounds every 4 weeks. she said this was unacceptable over any 4 week period. as it stands i've thus far gained 26 pounds. also she says that though i'm at 28 weeks the baby's size is 27 weeks, i think she mentioned 27 inches for the top of the fundus. when i was 13 weeks the baby's size was 14 weeks. i must also add, that i had an operation a few years ago for endometriosis and i've had no problems with endometriosis but apparently it is causing me pain in my pelvic region during the pregnancy, and i have a very difficult time moving, and the doc has recommended i not walk or move unless i have to. (i have a little handicapped sticker for when i do need to go out.) anyway that's 1/2 of the situation the other is that almost from the beginning of pregnancy i was getting sick (throwing up) about 2-3 times a day and mostly it was bile that was being eliminated. (i told her about this). i know this because i wasn't eating very much due to the nausea and could see the 'results'. well now i only get sick about once every 1-2 weeks, and it is still bile related. but in addition i had begun to feel movement near my upper right abdomen, just below the right breast, usually when i was lying on my right side. it began to get worse though because it started to hurt when i lay on my right side, and then it hurt no matter what position i was in. next, i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone, and the pain in the area got worse. however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to 'cut' the fat it wasn't as much of a problem. so the doctor says i have cholistatis, and that i should avoid fatty foods. this makes sense, and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own. but i'm still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods. but doc wants me to be on a non-fat diet. this means no meat except fish and chicken w/o skin (i do this anyway). no nuts, fried food, cheese etc. i am allowed skim milk. she said i should avoid anything sweet (e.g. bananas). also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day ( potatoes, pasta, rice)! she said i can't even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed. i'm concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process. and if i'm not taking in fat, is she expecting the baby will take it from my stores? and why this restriction on carbohydrates if she's concerned about fat? i'm not clear how much of her recommendation is based on my weight gain and how much on cholistatis, which i can't seem to find any information on. she originally said that i should only gain 20 pounds during the entire pregnancy since i was about 20 lbs overweight when i started. but my sister gained 60 lbs during her pregnancy and she's taken it all off and hasn't had any problems. she also asked if any members of my family were obese, which none of them are. anyway i think she is overly concerned about weight gain, and feel like i'm being 'punished' by a severe diet. she did want to see me again in one week so i think she the diet may be temporary for that one week. what i want to know is how reasonable is this non-fat diet? i would understand if she had said low-fat diet, since i'm trying that anyway, even if she said really low-fat diet. i think she assumes i must be eating a high-fat diet, but really it is that because of the endometriosis and the operation i'm not able to use the energy from the food i do eat. any opinions, info and experiences will be appreciated. i'm truly going stark raving mad trying to meet this new strict diet because fruits and vegetables go through my system in a few minutes and i'll end up having to eat constantly. thus far i don't find any foods satisfying. 
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 if it were my wife, i would insist that a radiologist be involved in the process. radiologist are intensively trained in the process of interpreting diagnostic imaging data and are aware of many things that other physicians aren't aware of. maybe, maybe not. a new graduate would obviously be well trained (but perhaps without sufficient experience). a radiologist trained 10 or 15 years ago who has not kept his continuing education current is a whole 'nuther matter. a ob who has trained in modern radiology technology is certainly more qualified than the latter and at least equal to the former. would you want a radiologist to deliver your baby? if you wouldn't, then why would you want a ob/gyn to read your ultrasound study? if the radiologist is also trained in ob/gyn, why not? john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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 a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn's but she can't seem to eat certain foods, such as fresh vegetables, without discomfort, and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence. her question is: are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn's disease ? (i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric). thanks in advance, john eyles all your friend really has to do is find a registered dietician(rd). while most work in hospitals and clinics, many major cities will have rd's who are in "private practice" so to speak. many physicans will refer their patients with crohn's disease to rd's for dietary help. if you can get your friend's physician to make a referral, medical insurance should pay for the rd's services just like the services of a physical therapist. the better medical insurance plans will cover this but even if your friend's plan doesn't, it would be well worth the cost to get on a good diet to control the intestinal discomfort and help the intestinal lining heal. crohn's disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestinal lining and lipoxygenase inhibitors may help by decreasing leukotriene formation but i'm not aware of tea or turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors. for if you do a medline search on "turmeric" you'll see that it is a potent lipoxygenase inhibitor which is being investigated in a number of areas. i'm in cardiology and about 4 years ago the cardiothoracic surgery lab at my hospital compared the effect of a teaspoon of dissolved turmeric vs. a $2000 bolus of tpa in preventing myocardial reperfusion injury in a perfused langendorff sheep heart. the turmeric was more effective :-) a colleague of mine in the school of pharmacy (dr. ron kohen) has a paper "in press" on the free radical scavenging activity and antioxidant activity of tea. backon@vms.huji.ac.il bad inflammation, steroids are used but for a mild case, the side effects are not worth the small benefit gained by steroid use. upjohn is developing a new lipoxygenase inhibitor that should greatly help deal with inflammatory diseases but it's not available yet. marty b. 
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 hi... i need information on scaring. particularly as a result of grazing the skin i really wanted to know of 1. would a scar occur as a result of grazing 2. if yes, then would it disappear? 3. how long does a graze take to heal? 4. will hair grow on it once it has healed? 5. what is 'scar tissue'? 6. should antiseptic cream be applied to it regularly? 7. is it better to keep it exposed and let fresh air at it? please help - any info - no matter how small will be appreciated greatly. but please e-mail me directly because i dont read this newsgroup often (this is my first time). ....shaz.... 
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 in many european countries homepathy is accepted as a method of curing (or at least alleiating) many conditions to which modern medicine has no answer. in most of these countries insurance pays for the accepted by whom? not by scientists. there are people in every country who waste time and money on quackery. in britain and scandanavia, where i have worked, it was not paid for. what are "most of these countries?" i don't believe you. when were you in britain?, my information is different. from miranda castro, _the complete homeopathy handbook_, isbn 0-312-06320-2, oringinally published in britain in 1990. from page 10, .. and in 1946, when the national health service was established, homeopathy was included as an officially approved method of treatment. 
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 [cross-posted from alt.psychology.personality since it talks about physician's personalities. apologies to sci.med readers not familiar with the myers-briggs "nt/nf" personality terms. but, in a word or two, the nts (intuitive->thinkers) are approximately your philosophy/science/tech pragmatic types, and the nfs (intuitive-feelers) are your humanities/social-"science"/theology idealistic types. they hate each others' guts (:-)) but tend to inter-marry. the letter "j" is a reference to conscienciousness/decisiveness.] jon noring emits typical nf-type stuff [physicians] are just responding in their natural way: hyper-choleric syndrome (hcs). .. ..it is fascinating that a disproportionate number of physicians will type out as nt .. one driving characteristic of an nt, especially an ntj, is their obvious choleric behavior (driver, type a, etc.) - the extreme emotional need to control, to lead, and/or to be the best or the most competent. .. please get it right, jon. (this ntj has a strong desire to correct semantic mistakes, because the nfs of this world are fouling the once-pristine nt intellectual nest with their verbal poop.) the dominant correlation is nt <-> phlegmatic (and _not_ nt <-> choleric). one of the semantic roots of "choleric" is the idea of "hot" (emotional) and one of the semantic roots of "phlegmatic" is "cold" (unemotional). here is a thumbnail sketch (taken from hans eysenck, refering to wundt) relating the ancient greek quadratic typology with modern terms: ("melancholic") | ("choleric") thoughtful suspicious | quickly-aroused hotheaded unhappy worried | egocentric histrionic anxious | exhibitonist serious | active unchangeable < ------------------------------------------------> changeable calm | playful reasonable | carefree steadfast persistent | hopeful sociable highly-principled controlled | controlled easy-going ("phlegmatic") | ("sanguine") non-emotional i suspect that your characterisation of nts as "choleric" is what you psych-types call a "projection" of your own nf-ness onto us. maybe we need more nf doctor's. :^) perhaps in serious pediatics and "my little boy's got a runny nose, doctor" general practice, but, please god, not in neurology, opthamology, urology, etc. etc. and nf-psychiatry should seperate from nt-(i.e. real) psychiatry and be given a new name .. something like "channeling" :-). tony@nexus.yorku.ca = tony wallis, york university, toronto, canada 
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 anecedotal evidence is worthless. even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years, and who swear it is effective, are often suprised at the results of clinical trials. whether or not msg causes describable, reportable, documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover. but it is quite a leap in logic to observe one situation where anecdotal evidence led nowhere and therefore conclude that anecdotal evidence will never lead anywhere. i'm sure somebody here can provide an example where anecdotal evidence (and the interpretation of it) was upheld/verified by follow-on rigorous clinical trials. i tend to disagree- i think anecdotal evidence, provided there is a lot of it, and it is fairly consistent, will is very important. first, it points to the necessity of doing a study, and second, it at least says that the effects are all psychological (or possibly allergy in this case). as i've pointed out person's "make-believe" can easily be another person's reality... good point. there has been a tendency by some on this newsgroup to "circle the wagons" to the viewpoint that anecdotal medical evidence is worthless (maybe to counter the claims of those who are presenting anecdotal evidence to support controversial subjects, such as the "yeast hypothesis"). but evidence is evidence - it requires a "jury" or a process to sort it out and determine the truth from the junk. medicine must continue to strive to better understand the workings of the body/mind for the purpose of alleviating illness - anecdotal evidence is just one piece of the puzzle; it is not worthless. rather, it can help focus limited resources in the right direction. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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 i got asked in sci. med. nutrition about vitamin c and oxalate production( toxic, kidney stone formation?). i decided to post my answer here as well because of the recent question about kidney stones. not long after i got into sci. med. i got flamed by a medical fellow for stating that magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation. i'm going to state it again here. but the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming is to take b6 supplements. read on to find out why(i have my asbestos suit on now guys). vitamin c will form oxalic acid. but large doses are needed (above 6 grams per day). 1. review article "nutritional factors in calcium containing kidney stones with particular emphasis on vitamin c" int. clin. nutr. rev. 5(3):110-129(1985). but glycine also forms oxalic acid(d-amino acid oxidases). for both glycine and vitamin c, one of the best ways to drastically reduce this production is not to cut back on dietary intake of vitamin c or glycine, but to increase your intake of vitamin b6. 2. "control of hyperoxaluria with large doses of pyridoxine in patients with kidney stones" int. urol. nephrol. 20(4):353-59(1988) 200 to 500 mg of b6 each day significasntly decreased the urinary excretion of oxalate over the 18 month treatment program. 3. the action of pyridoxine in primary hyperoxaluria" clin. sci. 38 :277-86(1970). patients receiving at least 150mg b6 each day showed a significant reduction in urinary oxalate levels. for gylcine, this effect is due to increased transaminase activity(b6 is required for transaminase activity) which makes less glycine available for oxidative deamination(d-amino acid oxidases). for vitamin c, the effect is quite different. there are different pathways for vitamin c catabolism. the pathway that leads to oxalic acid formation will usually have 17 to 40% of the ingested dose going into oxalic acid. but this is highly variable and the vitamin c review article pointed out that unless the dose gets upto 6 grams per day, not too much vitamin c gets catabolized to form oxalic acid. at very high doses of vitamin c(above 10 grams per day), more of the extra vitamin c (more than 40% conversion) can end up as oxalic acid. in a very early study on vitamin c and oxalic production(proc. soc. exp. biol. med. 85:190-92(1954), intakes of 2 grams per day up to 9 grams per day increased the average oxalic acid excretion from 38mg per day up to 178mg per day. until 8 grams per day was reached, the average excreted was increased by only 3 to 12mg per day(2 gram dose, 4 gram dose, 8 gram dose and 9gram dose). 8 grams jumped it to 45mg over the average excretion before supplementation and 9 grams jumped it to 150 mg over the average before supplementation. b6 is required by more enzymes than any other vitamin in the body. there are probably some enzymes that require vitamin b6 that we don't know about yet. vitamin c catabolism is still not completely understood but the speculation is that this other pathway that does not form oxalic acid must have an enzyme in it that requires b6. differences in b6 levels could then explain the very variable production of oxalic acid from a vitamin c challenge(this is not the preferred route of catabolism). increasing your intake of b6 would then result in less oxalic acid being formmed if you take vitamin c supplements. since the typical american diet is deficient in b6, some researchers believe that the main cause of calcium-oxalate kidney stones is b6 deficiency(especially since so little oxalic acid gets absorbed from the gut). diets providing 0 to 130mg of oxalic acid per day showed absolutely no change in urinary excretion of oxalate(urol int.35:309 -15,1980). if 400mg was present each day, there was a significant increase in urinary oxalate excretion. here are the high oxalate foods: 1. beans, coca, instant coffee, parsley, rhubarb, spinach and tea. contain at least 25mg/100grams 2. beet tops, carrots, celery, chocolate, cumber, grapefruit, kale, peanuts, pepper, sweet potatoe. contain 10 to 25 mg/100grams. if the threshold is 130mg per day, you can see that you really have a lot of latitude in food selection. a recent n.eng.j. med. article also points out that one good way to prevent kidney stone formation is to increase your intake of calcium which will prevent most of the dietary oxalate from being absorbed at all. if you also increase your intake of b6, you shouldn't have to worry about kidney stones at all. the rda for b6 is 2mg per day for males and 1.6mg per day for females(directly related to protein intake). b6 can be toxic(nerve damage) if it is consumed in doses of 500mg or more per day for an extended peroid(weeks to months). the usda food survey done in 1986 had an average intake of 1.87 mg per day for males and 1.16mg per day for females living in the u.s. coupled with this low intake was a high protein diet(which greatly increases the b6 requirement), as well as the presence of some of the 40 different drugs that either block b6 absorption, are metabolic antagonists of b6, or promote b6 excretion in the urine. common ones are: birth control pills, alcohol, isoniazid, penicillamine, and corticosteroids. i tell my students to supplement all their patients that are going to get any of the drugs that increase the b6 requirement. the dose recommended for patients taking birth control pills is 10-15mg per day and this should work for most of the other drugs that increase the b6 requirement(this would be on top of your dietary intake of b6). any patient that has a history of kidney stone formation should be given b6 supplements. one other good way to prevent kidney stone formation is to make sure your ca/mg dietary ratio is 2/1. magnesium-oxalate is much more soluble than is calcium-oxalate. 4. "the magnesium:calcium ratio in the concentrated urines of patients with calcium oxalate calculi"invest. urol 10:147(1972) 5. "effect of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide on the crystallization of calcium in urine: changes producted by food-magnesium interaction"j. urol. 143(2):248-51(1990). 6.review article, "magnesium in the physiopathology and treatment of renal calcium stones" j. presse med. 161(1):25-27(1987). there are actually about three times as many articles published in the medical literature on the role of magnesium in preventing kidney stone formation than there are for b6. i thought that i was being pretty safe in stating that magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation in an earlier post in this news group but good old john a. in mass. jumped all over me. i guess that he doesn't read the medical literature. oh well, since kidney stones can be a real pain and a lot of people suffer from them, i thought i'd tell you how you can avoid the pain and stay out of the doctor's office. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine 1111 w. 17th street tulsa, ok. 74107 "without discourse, there is no remembering, without remembering, there is no learning, without learning, there is only ignorance". from a wise man who lived in china, many, many years ago. i think that it still has meaning in today's world. 
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 :in article <1993apr22.205341.172965@locus.com> michael trofimoff, :>would anyone out there in 'net-land' happen to have an :>authentic, sure-fire way of making this great sauce that :>is used to adorn gyro's and souvlaki? :i'm not sure of the exact recipe, but i'm sure acidophilus is one of :the major ingredients. :-) the only recipies i've ever seen for this include plain yogurt, finely chopped cucumber and a couple of crushed cloves of garlic -- yummy. = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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 hate to wreck your elaborate theory, but steve dyer is not an md. so professional jealosy over doctors who help their patients with nystatin, etc., can't very well come into the picture. steve doesn't have any patients. response to specificially candida albicans, and i showed a strong positive. another question, would everybody show the same strong positive so this test is essentially useless? and, assuming it is true that candida can grow yes, everyone who is normal does that. we use candida on the other arm when we put a tuberculin test on. if people don't react to candida, we assume the tb test was not conclusive since such people may not react to anything. all normal people have antibodies to candida. if not, you would quickly turn into a fungus ball. this brings up an interesting observation used by those who will deny and reject any and all aspects of the 'yeast hypothesis' until the appropriate studies are done. and that is if you can't observe or culture the yeast "bloom" in the gut or sinus, then there's no way to diagnose or even recognize the disease. and i know they realize that it is virtually impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body. it's a real catch-22. you've just discovered one of the requirements for a good quack theory. find something that no one can *disprove* and then write a book saying it is the cause of whatever. since no one can disprove it, you can rake in the bucks for quite some time. ...i have often wondered what an m.d. with chronic gi distress or sinus problems would do about the problem that he tells his patients is a non-existent syndrome. that is odd, isn't it? why do you suppose it is that mds with these common problems don't go for these crazy ideas? does the "professional jealosy" extend to suffering in silence, even though they know they could be cured if they just followed this quack book? gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 from miranda castro, _the complete homeopathy handbook_, isbn 0-312-06320-2, oringinally published in britain in 1990. from page 10, .. and in 1946, when the national health service was established, homeopathy was included as an officially approved method of treatment. i was there in 1976. i suppose it must have died out since 1946, then. certainly i never heard of any homeopaths or herbalists in the employ of the nhs. perhaps the law codified it but the authorities refused to hire any homeopaths. a similar law in the us allows chiropractors to practice in va hospitals but i've never seen one there and i don't know of a single va that has hired a chiropractor. there are a lot of britons on the net, so someone should be able to tell us if the nhs provides homeopaths for you. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 ... if you can't observe or culture the yeast "bloom" in the gut or sinus, then there's no way to diagnose or even recognize the disease. and i know they realize that it is virtually impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body. you've just discovered one of the requirements for a good quack theory. find something that no one can *disprove* and then write a book saying it is the cause of whatever. since no one can disprove it, you can rake in the bucks for quite some time. i hope gordon banks did not mean to imply that notions such as hard-to-see candida infections causing various problems should not be investigated. many researchers have made breakthroughs by figuring out how to investigate things that were previously thought "virtually impossible to test for." indeed, i would be surprised if "candida overbloom" were such a phenomena. i would think that candida would produce signature byproducts whose measure would then set a lower bound on the extent of recent infection. i realize this might get quite tricky and difficult, probably expensive, and likely inconvenient or uncomfortable to the subjects, but that is not the same as "virtually impossible." 
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 okay, this is a long shot. my friend robin has recurring bouts of mononucleosis-type symptoms, very regularly. this has been going on for a number of years. she's seen a number of doctors; six was the last count, i think. most of them have said either "you have mono" or "you're full of it; there's nothing wrong with you." one has admitted to having no idea what was wrong with her, and one has claimed that it is epstein-barr syndrome. now, what she told me about ebs is that very few doctors even believe that it exists. (obviously, this has been her experience.) so, what's the story? is it real? does the medical profession believe it to be real? has anyone had success is treating ebs? or is it just something to live with? thanks for your assistance. outbreaks of a chronic-mono-like entity were originally called ebs (or some variant thereof) because most of the people with this disease had elevated levels of antibodies to the ebv virus. but not all of them did, which prompted an official renaming of the disease to chronic fatigue syndrome (this renaming took place in the annals of internal medicine, jan. 1988, i believe). now it's also called chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome (cfids), since it seems clear that some sort of immune disregulation is causing the probs. astonishly, there are still docs who tell people with massively swollen glands, recurrent fevers and nightsweats, etc., that there's nothing wrong with them. this is not the same thing as saying that the syndrome may have a (at least partly) psychological cause. the disagreement among people whose thoughts are worth considering centers on just what the cause is. no one knows, but theories include: psychological stress, some sort of virus (a retrovirus, say most -- maybe one of the newly discovered herpes viruses), environmental toxins, bacteria (and, yes, candida), genes, (and/)or some combo of there's no outright cure at the moment, but different docs try different things, some of which seem to help. massive amounts of info on the condition are available these days. post your q to alt.med.cfs, and you will be flooded w/facts. note: there are lots of far better understood (and better treatable) diseases that look like cfids. make sure these get ruled-out by a good 
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 ihave had a frozen shoulder for over a year or about a year. it is still partially frozen, and i am still in physical therapy every week. but the pain has subsided almost completely. until last week when i mowed the lawn for twenty minutes each, two days in a row. i have a push type power mower. the pain started back up a little bit for the first time in quite a while, and i used ice and medicine again. can anybody explain why this particular activity, which does not seem to stress me very much generally, should cause this shoulder problem? 
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 i hope gordon banks did not mean to imply that notions such as hard-to-see candida infections causing various problems should not be investigated. many researchers have made breakthroughs by figuring out how to investigate things that were previously thought "virtually impossible to test for." indeed, i would be surprised if "candida overbloom" were such a phenomena. i would think that candida would produce signature byproducts whose measure would then set a lower bound on the extent of recent infection. i realize this might get quite tricky and difficult, probably expensive, and likely inconvenient or uncomfortable to the subjects, but that is not the same as "virtually impossible." i recall reading in the recently revised edition of the "yeast connection" that there is indeed work by researchers to do this. of course, they are working on the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated "mild" inflammatory response can and does occur in a large number of people. if you reject this "yeast hypothesis", then i'd guess you'd view this research as one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor. stay tuned. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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 one thing that i haven't seen in this thread is a discussion of the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile of ingested fatty acids (fas). i was diagnosed last may w/crohn's of the terminal ileum. when i got out of the hospital i read up on it a bit, and came across several studies investigating the role of epa (an essentially fa) in reducing inflammation. the evidence was mixed. [many of these studies are discussed in "inflammatory bowel disease," macdermott, stenson. 1992.] but if i recall correctly, there were some methodological bones to be picked with the studies (both the ones w/pos. and w/neg. results). in the studies patients were given epa (a few grams/day for most of the studies), but, if i recall correctly, there was no restriction of the _other_ fas that the patients could consume. from the informed layperson's perspective, this seems mistaken. if lots of n-6 fas are consumed along with the epa, then the ratio of "bad" prostanoid products to "good" prostanoid products could still be fairly "bad." isn't this ratio the issue? what's the view of the gastro. community on epa these days? epa supplements, along with a fairly severe restriction of other fas appear to have helped me significantly (though it could just be the low absolute amount of fat i eat -- 8-10% calories). -brian <bmdelane@midway.uchicago.edu> as you note, the research is mixed, so there is no consensus on the role of fatty acids in ulcerative colitis. there is a role for short chain fatty acids in patients with colostomies and rectal pouches that are inflammed (short is butyrate and shorter). there may be a role for treatment of uc with short chain fatty acids, and i am looking forward to the upcoming aga meeting in boston to see what people are you raise a hypothesis about the studies and restriction of other fatty acids. you should contact the authors directly about that or even write a letter to the editor - it is a good point. by the way, the abbreviation epa is not in general use, so i do not know what fatty acid you are speaking about. and to brian an u of c --- there is a physician named stephen hanauer there who is a recognized expert in the treatment of ibd. you might give him a call. he is interested in new combinations of drugs for the treatment of ibd. if you call please say hello to him from me, i was looking at u of c for a position, and perhaps still am. and be sure to look into joining the ccfa. best of luck. steve holland 
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 i am writing this to find out the following: 1.) any information on surgery to prevent reflux esophagitis. 2.) the name(s) of a doctor(s) who specialize in such surgery. 3.) information on reflux esophagitis which leads to cancer. my boyfriend, age 34 and otherwise in good health, was diagnosed with reflux esophagitis and a hiatal hernia about 2 years ago. at that time he saw a gastroenterologist and has tried acid controllers (mylanta, tagamet), as well as a restricted diet and raising the head of his bed. these treatments were not effective and because the damage was worsening, he opted for a surgical repair 3 months ago. he was told there were two repair techniques that could fix the problem; a nissen wrap and a "hill repair". he opted for the "hill repair". he recovered very well from the surgery itself but the pain he had originally is worse and in addition he now has trouble swallowing (including saliva). the doctor now wants to do an endoscopy and has also informed him that a biopsy might be necessary if he has a pre-cancerous condition which he called "barrett's syndrome". if he can't avoid having reflux will he necessarily get cancer? basically, if anyone has any information on what he should do now, i'd appreciate it. pat lydon/ netmanage, inc./ pat@netmanage.com 
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 would anyone out there in 'net-land' happen to have an authentic, sure-fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro's and souvlaki? i'm not sure of the exact recipe, but i'm sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients. :-) it's plain yoghurt with grated cucumber and coriander (other spices are sometimes used). some people use half yoghurt and half mayonaise. 
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 rousseaua@immunex.com writes about heat shock proteins (hsp's) and dna. i hate to be derogatory, but in this case i think it's warranted. hsp's are part of the cellular response to stress. the only reason they are called 'heat shock proteins' is because they were first demonstrated using heat shock. dead tissue (ie. meat) is not going to produce any protein- because it's dead! also, who cares if the dna you are ingesting is mutated!? it will be completely digested in your stomach, which is about ph 2. some of you worry way too much. eat a healthy, balanced diet and relax. my advice is, if you don't know what you are talking about, it is better to keep your mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt about your ignorance. don't speculate, or at least get some concrete information before you do! sherry olmstead sherry olmstead title: lab technician forestry canada phone: (604) 363-0600 victoria, b.c. internet: solmstead@a1.pfc.forestry.ca 
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 i recall reading somewhere, during my youth, in some science popularization book, that whyle isotope changes don't normally affect chemistry, a consumption of only heavy water would be fatal, and that seeds watered only with heavy water do not sprout. does anyone know about this? i also heard this. i always thought it might make a good eposide of 'columbo' for someone to be poisoned with heavy water - it wouldn't show up in any chemical test. no one else seems to know, so i'll post this. this topic came up on sci.physics.fusion shortly after the cold-fusion flap started. as i recall, its been done to some experimental mice. they showed various ill effects and eventually died. the reason is that deuterium does not have exactly the same reaction rates as hydrogen due to its extra mass (which causes lower velocity, boltzman constant, mumble). this throws various bits of body biochemistry out of kilter, and you get sick and die. i've never heard of anyone being poisened this way, in or out of real life. the process takes quite a while. if anyone wants to write this book, i would imagine you would have to: 1: replace a significant fraction of the water in the body with heavy 2: wait while normal breakdown and repair processes cause other molecules in the body to be synthesised using the deuterium. during this process the victim would gradually deteriorate and eventually die, but i imagine it would take weeks during which the poisoner would have to ensure that a significant proportion of the water the victim ingested was heavy. you would get such a mess of symptoms that the doctors would be both alarmed and confused. why should every organ in the body suddenly begin to deteriorate? if you can figure out how the poisoner gets the heavy water into the victim in a hospital then you could have a real story here. come to think of it, <2> would continue even after the heavy water was no longer being ingested, so hospitalisation might be too late. the most detectable effect would be that the victim's body fluids would literally be "heavy". water has a molecular weight of 18 and heavy water has a mw of 20. thus the victim's weight will increase by about 1% for every 10% of body water replaced by heavy water. maybe the detection occurs because some pathologist in the lab notices that the victim's urine is strangely dense. is there any medical test involving the specific gravity of a body fluid? paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions 
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 is there a right-eye dominance (eyedness?) as there is an overall right-handedness in the population? i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other? if so, what kinds of percentages can be attached to this? yes, there is such a thing as eye dominance, although i am not sure if this dominance refers to perscription strength. as i recall, if you selectively close your dominant eye, you will percieve that the image shifts. this will not happen if you close your other eye. i believe that which eye is dominant is related to handedness, but i can't recall the relation at the moment. barry d. benowitz email: bbenowit@telesciences.com (...!pyrnj!telesci!bbenowit) phone: +1 609 866 1000 x354 snail: telesciences co systems, 351 new albany rd, moorestown, nj, 08057-1177 
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 poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist. calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well. do you believe that any quacks exist? how about quack diagnoses? is being a "licensed physician" enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack, or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack, other people shouldn't say so? can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis, or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous "healers" taking advantage of david rind sure there are quacks. there are quacks who don't treat and quacks who treat. one's that refuse to diagnose and ones that diagnose improperly. there are lucky quacks and unlucky quacks. smart quacks and dumb ones. there are people ahead of their time, with unprobable or unproven theories and rationals. there are ill-reasoned, absurd, theorists. sometimes it's hard to tell who's who. reading a book of ancient jokes it seems that doctors called other doctors quacks in babylon. arguments abound when there aren't any firm answers. plenty of illnesses aren't, or can't, be diagnosed or treated. but i think it's better to argue against the theory, as was originally done with postings on candida a month or so ago. stating the facts usually works better than simply asserting an opinion about someone's competency. and you can't convince everybody. sometimes a correct diagnosis takes years for people: they don't run into a doctor who recognizes the disease, they haven't developed something recognizable yet, or they have something that no one is going to recognize, because it hasn't been described yet. sometimes they get a cure, sometimes the illness wears out, sometimes they stumble on an improper diagnosis with the right treatment, sometimes they find it's incurable. there is no profit in a patient accepting a hopeless attitude about an illness. unless it's a rock solid diagnosis of terminal disease it's is more like ly that a person will find a cure if they keep looking. -jackie- 
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<instance id="sci.med59237">
<answer instance="sci.med59237" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 do you believe that any quacks exist? how about quack diagnoses? is being a "licensed physician" enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack, or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack, other people shouldn't say so? i would say there are also significant numbers of unscrupulous doctors (of the squeaky-clean, traditional crew-cut, talk to the ama before starting any treatment, kind) umm, weren't you the one objecting to someone who is a "licensed physician" being called a quack? or is it just that being a licensed physician is a good defense against charges of quackery when the physician agrees with your system of beliefs? lately i've seen the word "quack" bandied about recklessly. actually, i almost never use the term quack. when i discuss "systemic yeast syndrome", however, i always point out that mainstream medicine views this as a quack diagnosis (and i agree with that characterization). let me put it another way to make my point clear: "quack" is a nebulous word lacking in any precision. really? i bet virtually everyone reading these posts understands what steve dyer, gordon banks, and i am implying when we have talked about systemic yeast syndrome as a quack diagnosis. would you prefer the word "charlatan"? (i don't happen to think that all quacks are charlatans since i suspect that some believe in the "diseases" they are diagnosing.) (p.s., may i suggest - seriously - that if the doctors and wanna-be-doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories, such as the "yeast theory", should create your own moderated group. why? is there some reason why you feel that it shouldn't be pointed out in sci.med that there is no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome? david rind rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59238">
<answer instance="sci.med59238" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife's ob-gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office. when on her next visit, my wife asked another doctor in the office if they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist read the pictures. the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not! my wife is concerned about this. she saw a tv show a couple months back (something like 20/20 or dateline nbc, etc.) where an expert on fetal ultrasounds (a radiologist) was showing all the different deffects that could be detected using the ultrasound. should my wife be concerned? should we take the pictures to a radiologist for a second opinion? (and if so, where would we find such an expert in chicago?) we don't really have any special medical reason to be concerned, but if a radiologist will be able to see things the ob-gyn can't, then i don't see why we shouldn't use one. any thoughts? as far as i can see if your obstetrition has an ultrasound in his rooms and is expirienced its use and interpretation, he should be just as capable of reading it as any radiologist. all doctors are "qualified" to read x-rays, u/s, ct scans etc. it is just that a radiologist does nothing else, and thus, is only better at reading them because of all this time spent doing this (skill in reading x-rays etc. just comes from plenty of practice). if your obstetrition reads heaps of obstetric ultrasounds he should be able to pick up any abnormalities that can be demonstrated by this technique. | zikzak public access unix, melbourne, australia. | < o o > | ########################################## | /// 
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<instance id="sci.med59243">
<answer instance="sci.med59243" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my brother's affine has recently been diagnosed with sweet's syndrome. also called steroid resistant sweet's syndrome. this syndrome started after she had had iodine 131 treatment for hyperthyroidism. she'd been reluctant to have treatment for the hyperthyroidism for many years and apparently started to show exaustion from it. i understand that she may still be testing high in thyroid level but she's isn't being treated by an endocrinologist. her previous endocrinologist bowed out when she entered the hospital. she entered the hospital because of the sweet's syndrome symptoms (skin lesions). i've looked through the last two years of medline and didn't find an abstract mentioning a correlation between thyroid and sweets. . i checked a handbook which said that sweet's was associated with leukemia. i'd like a reccomndation for experts who are in new york city or who travel to new york city. for the sweets and perhaps for the endocrinology. any information that might help. apparently there hasn't been much improvement in her condition over the past several months. -jackie- 
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<instance id="sci.med59244">
<answer instance="sci.med59244" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 if you think you have kidney stones or your doctor tells you that you do, definitely follow up on it. my sister was diagnosed with kidney stones 1 1/2 years ago and given medication to take to dissolve them. after that failed and she continued to be in great pain, they decided she had endometriosis. when they did exploratory surgery, they discovered she had a tumor, which turned out to be rhabdomyosarcoma -- a very rare and agressive cancer. i realize this is not what happens in the majority of cases, but you never know what can happen and shouldn't take chances! 
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<instance id="sci.med59246">
<answer instance="sci.med59246" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ... of course, they are working on the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated "mild" inflammatory response can and does occur in a large number of people. if you reject this "yeast hypothesis", then i'd guess you'd view this research as one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor. stay tuned. i do not have enough medical expertise to have much of an opinion one way or another on hidden candida infections. i can understand the skepticism of those who see this associated with various general kinds of symptoms, while there is a lack of solid demonstration that this happens and causes such general symptoms. (to understand this skepticism, one only needs to know of past failures that shared these characteristics with the notion of hidden candida infection. there have been quite a few, and the proponents of all thought that the skeptics were overly skeptical.) on the other hand, i am happy to read that some people are sufficiently interested in this possibility, spurred by suggestive clinical experience, to research it further. the doubters may be surprised. (it has happened before.) i realize that admitting ignorance in the face of ignorance may not endear me to those who are so sure they know one way or another. (and, indeed, perhaps some of them do know -- i am the one who is currently ignorant.) but i find this the most honest route, and so i am happy with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59247">
<answer instance="sci.med59247" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 do you believe that any quacks exist? how about quack diagnoses? is true focus of the medical profession. the ama and the boards should focus on these "quacks" instead of devoting unbelievable energy on 'search-and- destroy-missions' to pull the licenses of those doctors who are trying non- traditional or not fully accepted treatments for their desperate patients that traditional/accepted medicine cannot help. if i prescribe itraconazole for a patient's sinusitis neither the ama, fda, state licensing board, nor abfp will be knocking on my door to ask why. this is a specious argument. on their backs and pee-pee on themselves in obedience. what do they teach you in medical school - how to throw your authority around? among other things, how to evaluate new theories and treatments. let me put it another way to make my point clear: "quack" is a nebulous word lacking in any precision. its sole use is to obfuscate the issues at hand. funny, i thought it meant "one who fraudulently misrepresents his ability and experience in the diagnosis and treatment of disease or the effects to be achieved by the treatment he offers" (dorland's 27th). certainly more precision than conveyed by "chronic yeast". the indiscriminate use of this word is a sure sign of incompetency; and coming from any medical doctor (or wanna-be), where competency is expected, is real the inability to discriminate between fraudulent or erroneous representations is far more frightening. it is fraud to promote a treatment where the evidence for it is either lacking or against it and the quacksalver knows so, or error if the honest practitioner doesn't know so. failure to speak out against either bespeaks (p.s., may i suggest - seriously - that if the doctors and wanna-be-doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories, such as the "yeast theory", should create your own moderated group. may i reply - seriously - that if the practitioners and proponents of non-scientific medicine have left their minds so open that the parts of their brains that do critical evaluation have fallen out, they should learn to edit their newsgroup headers to conform to the existing hierarchy and divisions. john angelo gnassi lab of computer science jgnassi@hstbme.mit.edu massachusetts general hospital "eternal student" boston, massachusetts, usa "the earth be spanned, connected by a network" - walt whitman 
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<instance id="sci.med59249">
<answer instance="sci.med59249" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am looking for the email address of the world health organization, in particular the address for the department of nursing or the chief scientist for nursing: dr. miriam hirschfeld. the snail-mail address i have is the following: world health organization 20 avenue appia 1211 geneva 27 please respond directly to me. thank you for your assistance. --- elg --- elizabeth glaser, rn elg@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59253">
<answer instance="sci.med59253" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 putting aside our substantial differences, i'd like to ask the knowledgeable ones to give feedback on this. let me explain. one of my family members last week was discovered to have a brain tumor after having some difficulties with walking and writing (she is 64 years old). otherwise, she is in fine health. the discovery was made via cat scans. she then had mri scans done, where small cancerous areas were discovered in her lungs. biopsies showed it to be adenocarcinoma. one spot is in the lungs, and another in the pneumothorax. the oncologists believe the cancer started in the lungs and caused the brain tumor (she smoked until four years ago). anyway, i'd like feedback as to what adenocarcinoma is, how it is different from other cancers, how she will be treated (luckily the tumor is right below the skull and can be easily removed), and statistically what are the chances for full remission/recovery? jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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<instance id="sci.med59254">
<answer instance="sci.med59254" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 could some please refer me to someone who can perform prk (photo refractive keratostomy) in canada (preferably eastern portion). i've looked in the yellow pages with little success, and if someone has had a good (or bad, for that matter) experience, that would be especially helpful if you could please let me know. kurt hozak 92hozak@lab.cc.wmich.edu (preferred address) 
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<instance id="sci.med59257">
<answer instance="sci.med59257" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 last year, i was totally surprised when my annual physical disclosed an inguinal hernia. i couldn't remember doing anything that would have caused it. that is, i hadn't been lifting more than other people do, and in fact probably somewhat less. eventually the thing became more painful and i had the repair operation. this year i developed a pain on the other side. this turned out to be another inguinal hernia. so i go back to the hospital monday for another fun 8-) operation. i don't know of anything i'm doing to cause this to happen. i'm 38 years old and i don't think i'm old enough for things to start falling apart like this. the surgeon who is doing the operation seems to suspect a congenital weakness, but if so, why did it suddenly appear when i was 37 and not really as active as i was when i was younger? does anyone know how to prevent a hernia, other than not lifting anything? it's rare that i lift more than my 16-month-old or a sack full of groceries, and you may have noticed that your typical grocery sack is fairly small these days. is there some sort of exercise that will reduce the risk? of course, my wife thinks it's from sitting for long periods of time at the computer, reading news... j. porter clark jpc@avdms8.msfc.nasa.gov or jpc@gaia.msfc.nasa.gov nasa/msfc flight data systems branch 
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<instance id="sci.med59258">
<answer instance="sci.med59258" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a friend, a 62 year old man, has calcium deposits on one of his heart valves . what causes this to happen and what can be done about john.greze@execnet.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59259">
<answer instance="sci.med59259" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 could someone tell me what the density of skull bone is or direct me to a reference that contains this info? i would appreciate it very much. vinay j. rao vrao@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59261">
<answer instance="sci.med59261" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the following article by columnist mike royko is his humorous commentary on some of the public's perception of doctors and their salaries. i hope some of you will find it as amusing as i did. [reprinted w/o permission] "there's no cure for stupidity of poll on doctors' salaries" by mike royko tribune media services on a stupidity scale, a recent poll about doctors' earnings is right up there. it almost scored a perfect brain-dead 10. it was commissioned by some whiny consumers group called families usa. the poll tells us that the majority of americans believe that doctors make too much money. the pollsters also asked what a fair income would be for physicians. those polled said, oh, about $80,000 a year would be how generous. how sporting. how stupid. why is this poll stupid? because it is based on resentment and envy, two emotions that ran hot during the political campaign and are still simmering. you could conduct the same kind of poll about any group that earns $100,000-plus and get the same results. since the majority of americans don't make those bucks, they assume that those who do are stealing it from them. maybe the berlin wall came down, but don't kid yourself. karl marx lives. it's also stupid because it didn't ask key questions, such as: do you know how much education and training it takes to become a physician? if those polled said no, they didn't know, then they should have been disqualified. if they gave the wrong answers, they should have been dropped. what good are their views on how much a doctor should earn if they don't know what it takes to become a or maybe a question should have been phrased this way: "how much should a person earn if he or she must (a) get excellent grades and a fine educational foundation in high school in order to (b) be accepted by a good college and spend four years taking courses heavy in math, physics, chemistry, and other lab work and maintain a 3.5 average or better, and (c) spend four more years of grinding study in medical school, with the third and fourth years in clinical training, working 80 to 100 hours a week, and (d) spend another year as a low-pay, hard-work intern, and (e) put in another three to 10 years of post-graduate training, depending on your specialty and (f) maybe wind up $100,000 in debt after medical school and (g) then work an average of 60 hours a week, with many family doctors putting in 70 hours or more until they retire or fall over?" as you have probably guessed by now, i have considerably more respect for doctors than does the law firm of clinton and clinton, and all the lawyers and insurance executives they have called together to remake america's health care. based on what doctors contribute to society, they are far more useful than the power-happy, ego-tripping, program-spewing, social tinkerers who will probably give us a medical plan that is to health what clinton's first budget is to frugality. but propaganda works. and, as the stupid poll indicates, many americans wrongly believe that profiteering doctors are the major cause of high medical costs. of course doctors are well-compensated. they should be. americans now live longer than ever. but who is responsible for our longevity--lawyers, congress, or the guy flipping burgers in a mcdonald's? and the doctors prolong our lives despite our having become a nation of self-indulgent, lard-butted, tv-gaping couch ah, that is not something you heard president clinton or super spouse talk about during the campaign or since. but instead of trying to turn the medical profession into a villain, they might have been more honest if they had said: "let us talk about medical care and one of the biggest problems we have. that problem is you, my fellow american. yes, you, eating too much and eating the wrong foods; many of you guzzling too much hooch; still puffing away at $2.50 a pack; getting your daily exercise by lumbering from the fridge to the microwave to the couch; doing dope and bringing crack babies into the world; filling the big city emergency rooms with gunshot victims; engaging in unsafe sex and catching a deadly disease while blaming the world for not finding an instant cure. "you and your habits, not the doctors, are the single biggest health problem in this country. if anything, it is amazing that the docs keep you alive as long as they do. "in fact, i don't understand how they can stand looking at your blubbery bods all day. "so as your president, i call upon you to stop whining and start living cleanly. now i must go get myself a triple cheesy- greasy with double fries. do as i say, not as i do." but for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid, there is another solution: don't use them. that's right. you don't feel well? then try one of those spine poppers, needle twirlers, or have rev. bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit. or there is the do-it-yourself approach. you have chest pains? then sit in front of a mirror, make a slit here, a slit there, and pop in a couple of valves. you're going to have a kid? why throw your money at that overpaid sawbones so he can buy a better car and a bigger house than you will ever have (while paying more in taxes and malpractice insurance than you will ever earn)? just have the kid the old-fashioned way. squat and do it. and if it survives, you can go to the library and find a book on how to give it its shots. by the way, has anyone ever done a poll on how much pollsters should earn? royko is a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for tribune media vinay j. rao vrao@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59263">
<answer instance="sci.med59263" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 how about kirlian imaging ? i believe the faq for sci.skeptics (sp?) has a nice write-up on this. they would certainly be most supportive on helping you to build such a device and connect to a 120kvolt supply so that you can take a serious look at your "aura"... :-) filipe santos cern - european laboratory for particle physics please sign the relevant documents and forward the remaining parts to our study 'effect of 120 kv on human tissue wrapped in film'. thanks for your support... *dr. thomas trusk * * *dept. of cellular biology & anatomy * email to ttrusk@its.mcw.edu * *medical college of wisconsin * * *milwaukee, wi 53226 disclaimer (ala foghorn leghorn):* *(414) 257-8504 it's a joke, son. a joke i say! * 
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<instance id="sci.med59265">
<answer instance="sci.med59265" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 to: milsh@nmr-z.mgh.harvard.edu (alex milshteyn) am> having said that, i might add, that in mho, msg does not enhance am> flavor enoughf for me to miss it. when i go to chinese places, am> i order food without msg. to me, msg tastes just like a mixture of salt and sugar. i don't think that is the case with most people. what does it taste like to you? ... if wishes were horses, we'd all have to wear hip boots! * origin: one world los angeles 310/372-0987 32b (1:102/129.0) 
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<instance id="sci.med59266">
<answer instance="sci.med59266" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 to: smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (lost boy) lb> i know from personal experience that men can get yeast infections. i lb> get rather nasty ones from time to time, mostly in the area of the lb> scrotum and the base of the penis. i used to have problems with recurrent athlete's foot until i started drying between my toes with my blow drier after each time i bathe. i also dry my pubic area while i am at it to prevent problems. you might want to try it. ... my cat types with his tail. * origin: one world los angeles 310/372-0987 32b (1:102/129.0) 
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<instance id="sci.med59267">
<answer instance="sci.med59267" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 does anyone know of research done on the use of haldol in the elderly? does short-term use of the drug ever produce long-term side-effects after the use of the drug? my grandmother recently had to be hospitalized and was given large doses of haldol for several weeks. although the drug has been terminated, she has changed from a perky, slightly senile woman into a virtual vegetable who does not talk to anyone and who cannot even eat or brush her teeth without assistance. it seems incredible to me that such changes could take place in the course of just one and one-half months. i have to believe that the combination of the hospital stay and some drug(s) are in part catalysts for this. any comments? will estes internet: westes@netcom.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59271">
<answer instance="sci.med59271" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 =which was why i started checking every time i got sick. and every =time i got sick msg was somehow involved in one of the food products. which points up the "studies" made by amateurs: did you also check every time you did *not* get sick? "no," you say? why not check every thing you eat when you don't get sick and find out how much msg you're actually consuming? => all that's needed now is that final step, a double-blind study done => on humans. there isn't even an ethical question about "possible => harm", as this is a widely used and approved food additive. =but - some say that only 2% of the population has a problem with msg - =some say it's more like 20% - but let's say that it's 5%. how many =people would have to be tested that would have a problem? also - i =know i have a problem with it, and i wouldn't volunteer for a test. if you knew enough about what the test was about to decide that you didn't want to participate because it involved msg, you'd've already made yourself ineligible (since msg is detectable by taste). how can anybody be so clueless as to what double blind studies are all about? carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59274">
<answer instance="sci.med59274" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm a nursing student, and i would like to respond to #66966 on haldol and the elderly. message-id: <25apr199316225142@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu> organization: florida state university - school of higher thought news-software: vax/vms vnews 1.4-b1 first, i'm sorry to hear that you have had to see your grandmother go through this. i know it has to have been tough. there are many things that can cause long term confusion in elderly adults. the change in environment can cause problems. anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out of the body as easily. in addition, medications and interactions between medications can cause confusion. as far as whether or not haldol can have long lasting effects even after the drug has been discontinued, i do not know. i have not _seen_ anything to that effect. however, i also had not been looking for that information. i can see what i can find... i can tell you that haldol is an antipsychotic drug, and, according to the nursing93 drug handbook, it is "especially useful for agitation associated with senile dementia" (p. 400). it also should not be discontinued abruptly. it did not say anything about long lasting because so many things can cause confusion, it is hard for me to know what else was going on at the time; if i had more history, i might be able to answer you better. if you want to send me e-mail with more information, i would be happy to try to help you piece together what might have picl25@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59275">
<answer instance="sci.med59275" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i understand robert centor has a program called roc analyzer, that can be used to do receiver operating characteristic (roc) curve analysis. does anyone know if this is avaliable from an ftp site? if not, does anyone know how to get a copy of it? howard doyle doyle+@pitt.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59278">
<answer instance="sci.med59278" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i got this recipe from a watier on the greek island of samos. they use it as a spread for bread there butit is excellent on gyro's as well. by the way, the actual name is tzatziki. here is the recipe: yoghurt, chopped garlic, peeled chopped cucumber, salt, white pepper, a little olive oil and a little vinegar. i would love to hear of any other good greek recipes out there. jon walker jowalker@oboe.calpoly.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59279">
<answer instance="sci.med59279" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 while i don't have an answer for you, i reckon blaise pascal is generally credited with inventing the syringe per se. i don't know much about the needles; however, i do know of a southwest virginia country doctor who some thrity or more years ago invented, patented, used, and sold a syringe/ hypodermic needle combination that retracted, injected with the flip of a trigger, then retracted, giving a near-painless injection. the fellow was dr. daniel gabriel, and it was termed the gabriel--somebody else syringe. did you come across that one. (plastic, disposable syringes came onto the market about that time and his product went by the wayside, to my knowledge.) 
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<instance id="sci.med59280">
<answer instance="sci.med59280" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i've seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays. in the examples i've seen, drugs were definitely involved. my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital. he was fifty-three at the time, and he was on 21 separate drugs... no wonder he became confused! with so many drugs, it is almost impossible to know which one is causing the problem. and because some drugs potentiate the effect of each other, they can make the side effects all the worse, and even dangerous. (kinda like mixing alcohol and antihistamines!) ...he was disoriened [the doctors thougt ] they should put him on something else as well! unfortunately, doctors prescribe drugs to treat the side effects of the drugs a patient is receiving. if one drug they are taking causes the patient's blood pressure to go up, many times an antihypertensive is prescribed instead of re-evaluating the need for the original drug. this is why many older adults are trying to take a dozen or so drugs at home!!!! ....procure a list of the drugs your grandmother is getting, and discuss it with an independent doc. her problems may not be the effect of haldol at all. haldol may have been used validly, or it may have been prescribed because other medication confused her, and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly. i fully agree. in addition, she proably should be examined by another doctor who can re-evaluate the need for the medications she is taking. i can't remember the guidelines i either saw in a text or heard during a lecture, but any elderly adult who is receiving medications should have the need for the drug re-evaluated regularly. if her current physician is unwilling to do this, find one who will. either check the phone book for a physician who specializes in geriatric medicine or gerontology, or contact a physician referral line or the american medical society. by finding a geriatric specialist, he (she) will more likely be in tune with the special needs of elderly adults and maybe can help. 
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<instance id="sci.med59281">
<answer instance="sci.med59281" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i know that there is a relationship between fibromyalgia and deep sleep. i believe that there are five levels of sleep. i think that r.e.m. sleep is the third deepest level of sleep and that there are two deeper levels of sleep. if i am in error in any of this, please let me know. which level of sleep is thought to be deficient in people with fibromyalgia? are there any known sleep disturbances associated with cfs? what sleep disturbances (if any) are associated with clinical depression? do antidepressants correct the sleep disturbances in these diseases? are there any good books or medical journal articles about sleep disturbances and these diseases? thank you in advance for all replies. ... the more inconvenient it is to answer the phone, the more it rings. * origin: one world los angeles 310/372-0987 32b (1:102/129.0) 
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 when i was a school boy, my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse. somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation. was my biology teacher misinforming us, or do such incidents actually 
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 ------------- cut here ----------------- hicnet medical newsletter page 13 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 food & drug administration news fda approves depo provera, injectable contraceptive p92-31 food and drug administration for immediate release susan cruzan - (301) 443-3285 the food and drug administration today announced the approval of depo provera, an injectable contraceptive drug. the drug, which contains a synthetic hormone similar to the natural hormone progesterone, protects women from pregnancy for three months per injection. the hormone is injected into the muscle of the arm or buttock where it is released into the bloodstream to prevent pregnancy. it is more than 99 percent "this drug presents another long-term, effective option for women to prevent pregnancy," said fda commissioner david a. kessler, m.d. "as an injectable, given once every three months, depo provera eliminates problems related to missing a daily dose." depo provera is available in 150 mg. single dose vials from doctors and clinics and must be given on a regular basis to maintain contraceptive protection. if a patient decides to become pregnant, she discontinues the as with any such products, fda advises patients to discuss the benefits and risks of depo provera with their doctor or other health care professional before making a decision to use it. depo provera's effectiveness as a contraceptive was established in extensive studies by the manufacturer, the world health organization and health agencies in other countries. u.s. clinical trials, begun in 1963, also found depo provera effective as an injectable contraceptive. the most common side effects are menstrual irregularities and weight gain. in addition, some patients may experience headache, nervousness, abdominal pain, dizziness, weakness or fatigue. the drug should not be used in women who have acute liver disease, unexplained vaginal bleeding, breast cancer or blood clots in the legs, lungs or eyes. the labeling advises doctors to rule out pregnancy before prescribing the drug, due to concerns about low birth weight in babies exposed to the drug. hicnet medical newsletter page 14 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 recent data have also demonstrated that long-term use may contribute to osteoporosis. the manufacturer will conduct additional research to study this potential effect. depo provera was developed in the 1960s and has been approved for contraception in many other countries. the upjohn company of kalamazoo, mich., which will market the drug under the name, depo provera contraceptive injection, first submitted it for approval in the united states in the 1970s. at that time, animal studies raised questions about its potential to cause breast cancer. worldwide studies have since found the overall risk of cancer, including breast cancer in humans, to be minimal if any. hicnet medical newsletter page 15 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 new rules speed approval of drugs for life-threatening illnesses p92-37 food and drug administration monica revelle - (301) 443-4177 the food and drug administration today announced that it will soon publish new rules to shed the approval of drugs for patients with serious or life- threatening illnesses, such as aids, cancer and alzheimer's disease. "these final rules will help patients who are suffering the most serious illnesses to get access to new drugs months or even years earlier than would otherwise be possible," said hhs secretary louis w. sullivan, m.d. "the effort to accelerate fda review for these drugs has been a long-term commitment and indeed a hallmark of this administration." these rules establish procedures for the food and drug administration to approve a drug based on "surrogate endpoints" or markers. they apply when the drug provides a meaningful benefit over currently available therapies. such endpoints would include laboratory tests or physical signs that do not in themselves constitute a clinical effect but that are judged by qualified scientists to be likely to correspond to real benefits to the patient. use of surrogate endpoints for measurement of drug efficacy permits approval earlier than if traditional endpoints -- such as relief of disease symptoms or prevention of disability and death from the disease -- are used. the new rules provide for therapies to be approved as soon as safety and effectiveness, based on surrogate endpoints, can be reasonably established. the drug's sponsor will be required to agree to continue or conduct postmarketing human studies to confirm that the drug's effect on the surrogate endpoint is an indicator of its clinical effectiveness. one new drug -- zalcitabine (also called ddc) -- was approved june 19, using a model of this process, for treating the human immunodeficiency virus, hiv, the cause of aids. accelerated approval can also be used, if necessary, when fda determines that a drug, judged to be effective for the treatment of a disease, can be used safely only under a restricted distribution plan. "the new rules will help streamline the drug development and review process without sacrificing goad science and rigorous fda oversight," said fda commissioner david a. kessler, m.d. "while drug approval will be accomplished faster, these drugs and biological products must still meet safety and effectiveness standards required by law." hicnet medical newsletter page 16 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 the new procedures also allow for a streamlined withdrawal process if the postmarketing studies do not verify the drug's clinical benefit, if there is new evidence that the drug product is not shown to be safe and effective, or if other specified circumstances arise that necessitate expeditious withdrawal of the drug or biologic. hicnet medical newsletter page 17 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 research shows promise for preventing or slowing blindness due to retinal disease national retinitis pigmentosa foundation neutrophilic factors rescue photoreceptor cells in animal tests baltimore, md - researchers at the university of california san francisco and regeneron pharmaceuticals, inc. [nasdaq: regn] have discovered that certain naturally occurring substances known as neurotrophic factors can prevent the degeneration of light-sensing cells in the retina of the eye. the degeneration of these cells, known as photoreceptors, is a major cause of visual impairment this research, published to in the december issue of the proceedings of the national academy of science (pnas), holds promise for people who may lose their sight due to progressive retinal degeneration -- currently, no drug treatment for retinal degeneration exists. it is estimated that 2.5 million americans have severe vision loss due to age-related macular degeneration and 100,000 americans are affected by retinitis pigmentosus, a hereditary disease that causes blindness. in addition, each year more than 15,000 people undergo surgical procedures to repair retinal detachments and other retinal traumas. the research was funded in part by the rp (retinitis pigmentosa) foundation fighting blindness, regeneron pharmaceuticals and the national eye institute. it was conducted by drs. matthew m. lavail, kazuhiko unoki, douglas yasurnura, michael t. matthes and roy h. steinberg at ucsf, arld dr. c;eorge yancoooulos, regeneron's vice president for discovery. regeneron holds an exclusive license for this research from ucsf. in the research described in the pnas , a light-damage model was used to assess the survival-promoting activity of a number of naturally occurring substances. experimental rats were exposed to constant light for one week. eyes that had not been treated with an effective factor lost most of their photoreceptor cells -- the rods and cones of the retina -- after light exposure. brain derived neurotrophic factor (bdnf) and ciliary neurotrophic factor (cntf) were particularly effective in this model without causing unwanted side effects; other factors such as nerve growth factor (ngf) and insulin-like growth factor (igf-1) were not effective in these experiments. discussing the research, dr. jesse m. cedarbaum, regeneron's director of clinical research, said, "bdnf's ability to rescue neurons in the retina that have been damaged by light exposure may hold promise for the treatment of age- related macular degeneration, one of the leading causes of vision impairment, and for retinal detachment. following detachment, permanent vision loss may hicnet medical newsletter page 18 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 result frorn the death of detached retinal cells. it is possible that bdnf could play a role in rescuing those cells once the retina has been reattached surgically." "retinitis pigmentosa is a slowly progressing disease that causes the retina to degenerate over a period of years or even decades. vision decreases to a small tunnel of sight and can result in total blindness. it is our hope that research on growth factors will provide a means to slow the progression and preserve useful vision throughout life," stated jeanette s. felix, ph.d., director of science for the rp foundation fighting blindness. in addition to the work described , regeneron is developing bdnf in conjunction with aingen inc. [nasdaq:amgn] as a possible treatment for peripheral neuropathies associated with diabetes and cancer chemotherapy, motor neuron diseases, parkinson's disease, and alzheimer's disease. by itself, regeneron is testing cntf in patients with arnyotrophic lateral sclerosis (commonly known as lou gehrig's disease). regeneron pharlnaceuticals, inc., based in tarrytown, new york, is a leader in the discovery and development of biotechnology-based compounds for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, peripheral neuropathies and nerve injuries, which affect more than seven million americans. drs. lavail and steinberg of ucsf are consultants to regeneron. hicnet medical newsletter page 19 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 affluent diet increases risk of heart disease research resources reporter written by mary weideman nov/dec 1992 national institutes of health high-fat, high-calorie diets rapidly increase risk factors for coronary heart disease in native populations of developing countries that have traditionally consumed diets low in fat. these findings, according to investigators at the oregon health sciences university in portland, have serious implications for public health in both industrialized and developing "this study demonstrates why we can develop coronary heart disease and have higher blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels. it shows also the importance of diet and particularly the potential of the diet to increase body weight, thereby leading to a whole host of other health problems in developing countries and affluent nations as well," explains principal investigator dr. william e. connor, head of the section of clinical nutrition and lipid metabolism at oregon health sciences university. over the past 25 years dr. connor and his team have characterized the food and nutrient intakes of the tara humara indians in mexico, while simultaneously documenting various aspects of tarahumara lipid metabolism. these native mexicans number approximately 50,000 and reside in the sierra madre occidental mountains in the state of chihuahua. the tarahumaras have coupled an agrarian diet to endurance racing. probably as a result, coronary heart disease, which is so prevalent in western industrialized nations, is virtually non existent in their culture. loosely translated, the name tarahumara means "fleet of foot," reflecting a tribal passion for betting on "kickball" races, in which participants run distances of 100 miles or more while kicking a machete-carved wooden ball. the typical tarahumara diet consists primarily of pinto beans, tortillas, and pinole, a drink made of ground roasted corn mixed with cold water, together with squash and gath ered fruits and vegetables. the tara humaras also eat small amounts of game, fish, and eggs. their food contains approximately 12 percent of total calories as fat of which the majority (69 percent) is of vegetable origin. dietician martha mcmurry, a coinvestigator in the study, describes their diet as simple and very rich in nutrients while low in cholesterol and fat. the tarahumaras have average plasma cholesterol levels of 121 mg/ dl, low-density lipoprotein (ldl)-cholesterol levels of 72 mg/dl, and high-density lipoprotein (hdl)-cholesterol levels of 32 to 42 mg/dl. all of those values are in the good, low-risk range, according to the researchers. elevated cholesterol and ldl-cholesterol levels are considered risk factors for heart hicnet medical newsletter page 20 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 disease. hdl-cholesterol is considered beneficial. in previous studies the tarahumaras had been found to be at low risk for cardiac disease, although able to respond to high-cholesterol diets with elevations in total and ldl- clinical research center dietitian mcmurry and coinvestigator maria teresa cerqueira established a metabolic unit in a jesuit mission school building near a community hospital in the small village of sisoguichi. food was weighed, cooked, and fed to the study participants under the investigators' direct supervision, ensuring that subjects ate only food stipulated by the research protocol. fasting blood was drawn twice weekly, and plasma samples were frozen and shipped to dr. connors laboratory for cholesterol, triglyceride, and lipoprotein analyses. regular measurements included participant body weight, height, and triceps skin fold thickness. thirteen tarahumaras, five women and eight men, including one adolescent, were fed their native diet for 1 week, followed by 5 weeks of an "affluent" diet. "in this study we went up to a concentration of dietary fat that was 40 percent of total calories. this is the prototype of the holiday diet that many americans consume a diet high in fat, sugar, and cholesterol, low in fiber," elaborates dr. conners. such dietary characteristics are reflected in the cholesterol-saturation index, or csi, recently devised research dietitian sonja conner working with dr. connor. "the csi is a single number that incorporates both the amount of cholesterol and the amount of saturated fat in the diet. csi indicates the diet's potential to elevate the cholesterol level, particularly the ldl," dr. connor explains. the tarahumaran diet averages a very low csi of 20; dr. connor's "affluent" diet used in the study ranks a csi of 149. the experimental design of this study reflects the importance of establishing baseline plasma lipid levels, typical of the native diet, before exposing subjects to the experimental diet. the standard curve relating dietary food intake to plasma cholesterol demonstrates a leveling off, or plateau, for consumption of large amounts of fat. changes in dietary fat and/or cholesterol in this range have little effect on plasma levels. "you must have the baseline diet almost free of the variables you are going to put into the experimental diet. the framingham study, for example, did not discriminate on the basis of diet between individuals who got heart disease because the diet was already high in fat. all subjects were already eating on a plateau," dr. connor says. after 5 weeks of consuming the "affluent" diet, the subjects' mean plasma cholesterol levels had in creased by 31 percent, primarily in the ldl fraction, which rose 39 percent. hdl-cholesterol increased by 31 per cent, and ldl to hdl ratios changed therefore very little. plasma triglyceride levels increased by 18 percent, and subjects averaged an 8-pound gain in weight. according to dr. connor, lipid changes occurred surprisingly soon, yielding nearly the same results after 7 days of affluent diet as after 35 hicnet medical newsletter page 21 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 the increase in hdl carries broad dietary implications for industrialized nations. "we think hdl-cholesterol increased because we increased the amount of dietary fat over the fat content used in the previous tarahumara metabolic study. in that study we saw no change in hdl levels after raising the dietary cholesterol but keeping the fat relatively consistent with native consumption. in the present study we increased fat intake to 40 percent of the total calories. we reached the conclusion in the tarahumara study that hdl reflects the amount of dietary fat in general and not the amount of dietary cholesterol. hdl must increase to help metabolize the fat, and it increased quite a bit in this study," dr. connor explains. low hdl in the tarahumarans is not typically an important predictor of coronary heart disease because they do not normally consume large amounts of fat or cholesterol. hdl remains an important predictor to americans because of their usual high fat intake. dr. connor recommends a diet for americans that contains less than 20 percent of total calories as fat, less than 100 mg of cholesterol, and a csi around 20, varying in accordance with caloric needs. such a diet is low in meat and dairy fat, high in fiber. dr. connor also comments on recent suggestions that americans adopt a "mediterranean-style" diet. "the original mediterranean diet, in its pristine state, consisted of a very low intake of fat and very few animal and dairy products. we are already eating a lot of meat and dairy products. simply to continue that pattern while switching to olive oil is not going to help the situation." the world health organization (who) is focusing much attention on the emergence of diseases such as coronary heart disease in nations and societies undergoing technological development. dr. connor says that coronary heart disease starts with a given society's elite, who typically eat a different diet than the average citizen. "if the pattern of afluence increases, the entire population will have have a higher incidence of coronary heart disease, which places a termendous health care burden on a society. who would like the developing countries to prevent coronary heart disease, so they can concentrate on other aspects of their economic development and on public health measures to improve general well-being, rather than paying for unnecessary, expensive medical technology," dr. connors says. "the overall implication of this study is that humans can readily move their plasma lipids and lipoprotein values into a high-risk range within a very short time by an affluent, excessive diet. the present rate of coronary heart disease in the united states is 30 percent less than it was 20 years ago, so a lot has been accomplished. we are changing rapidly," he concludes. hicnet medical newsletter page 22 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 general announcments publications for health professionals available from nci (1/93) unless otherwise noted, the following materials are provided free of charge by calling the nci's publication ordering service, 1-800-4-cancer. because federal government publications are not subject to copyright restriction, you are free to photocopy nci material. general information anticancer drug information sheets in spanish/english. two- sided fact sheets (in english and spanish) provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer, their proper usage, and precautions for patients. the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention, inc., for distribution by the national cancer institute. single sets only may be ordered. cancer rates and risks, 3rd edition (85-691). this book is a compact guide to statistics, risk factors, and risks for major cancer sites. it includes charts and graphs showing incidence, mortality, and survival worldwide and in the united states. it also contains a section on the costs of cancer. 136 pages. diet, nutrition & cancer prevention: a guide to food choices (87-2778). this booklet describes what is now known about diet, nutrition, and cancer prevention. it provides information about foods that contain components like fiber, fat, and vitamins that may affect a person's risk of getting certain cancers. it suggests ways to use that information to select from a broad variety of foods--choosing more of some foods and less of others. includes recipes and sample menus. 39 pages. national cancer institute fact book. this book presents general information about the national cancer institute including budget data, grants and contracts, and historical hicnet medical newsletter page 23 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 national cancer institute grants process (91-1222) (revised 3/90). this booklet describes general nci grant award procedures; includes chapters on eligibility, preparation of grant application, peer review, eligible costs, and post- award activities. 62 pages. physician to physician: perspective on clinical trials. this 15-minute videocassette discusses why and how to enter patients on clinical trials. it was produced in collaboration with the american college of surgeons commission on cancer. students with cancer: a resource for the educator (91-2086). (revised 4/87) this booklet is designed for teachers who have students with cancer in their classrooms or schools. it includes an explanation of cancer, its treatment and effects, and guidelines for the young person's re-entry to school and for dealing with terminally ill students. bibliographies are included for both educators and young people. 22 pages. understanding the immune system (92-529). this booklet describes the complex network of specialized cells and organs that make up the human immune system. it explains how the system works to fight off disease caused by invading agents such as bacteria and viruses, and how it sometimes malfunctions, resulting in a variety of diseases from allergies, to arthritis, to cancer. it was developed by the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and printed by the national cancer institute. this booklet presents college level instruction in immunology. it is appropriate for nursing or pharmacology students and for persons receiving college training in other areas within the health professions. 36 pages. materials to help stop tobacco use chew or snuff educator package (91-2976). each package contains: ten copies of chew or snuff is real bad stuff, a brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders that describes the health and social effects of using hicnet medical newsletter page 24 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 smokeless tobacco products. when fully opened, the brochure can be used as a poster. one copy of chew or snuff is real bad stuff: a guide to make young people aware of the dangers of using smokeless tobacco. this booklet is a lesson plan for teachers. it contains facts about smokeless tobacco, suggested classroom activities, and selected educational resources. how to help your patients stop smoking: a national cancer institute manual for physicians (92-3064). this is a step- by-step handbook for instituting smoking cessation techniques in medical practices. the manual, with resource lists and tear-out materials, is based on the results of nci clinical trials. 75 pages. how to help your patients stop using tobacco: a national cancer institute manual for the oral health team (91-3191). this is a handbook for dentists, dental hygienists, and dental assistants. it complements the physicians' manual and includes additional information on smoking prevention and on smokeless tobacco use. 58 pages. pharmacists helping smokers quit kit. a packet of materials to help pharmacists encourage their smoking patients to quit. contains a pharmacist's guide and self-help materials for 25 patients. school programs to prevent smoking: the national cancer institute guide to strategies that succeed (90-500). this guide outlines eight essential elements of a successful school-based smoking prevention program based on nci research. it includes a list of available curriculum resources and selected references. 24 pages. self-guided strategies for smoking cessation: a program planner's guide (91-3104). this booklet outlines key characteristics of successful self-help materials and programs based on nci collaborative research. it lists additional resources and references. 36 pages. smoking policy: questions and answers. these ten fact sheets hicnet medical newsletter page 25 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 provide basic information about the establishment of worksite smoking policies. topics range from the health effects of environmental tobacco smoke to legal issues concerning policy implementation. strategies to control tobacco use in the united states: a blueprint for public health action in the 1990s (92-3316: smoking and control monograph no. 1). this volume provides a summary of what has been learned from 40 years of a public health effort against smoking, from the early trial-and- error health information campaigns of the 1960s to the nci's science-based project, american stop smoking intervention study for cancer prevention, which began in 1991. it offers reasons why comprehensive smoking control strategies are now needed to address the smoker's total environment and to reduce smoking prevalence significantly over the next materials for outreach programs cancer prevention and early detection: community outreach programs for health professionals three kits are available for community program planners and health professionals to set up local cancer prevention and early detection education projects: do the right thing. . . get a new attitude about cancer community outreach program. this community outreach kit targets black american audiences. it contains materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs for black audiences. the kit emphasizes the early detection of breast cancer by mammography and of cervical cancer by the pap test. it also discusses smoking and nutrition. the kit includes helpful program guidance, facts, news articles, visuals, and brochures. hagalo hoy community outreach program. this community outreach kit targets hispanic audiences. it contains bilingual and spanish language materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs. the materials educate hispanic audiences about early detection of breast cancer by mammography hicnet medical newsletter page 26 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 and of cervical cancer by pap tests. the kit also discusses smoking and related issues. the kit includes helpful guidance, facts, news articles, visuals and brochures. once a year..for a lifetime community outreach mammography program. this community outreach kit targets all women age 40 or over. it supplies community program planners and health professionals with planning guidance, facts about mammography, news articles, visuals and brochures. making health communication programs work: a planner's guide (92-1493). this handbook presents key principles and steps in developing and evaluating health communications programs for the public, patients, and health professionals. it expands upon and replaces "pretesting in health communications" and "making psas work." 131 pages. support material for community outreach programs the video and slide presentations listed below support the mammography outreach programs. once a year...for a lifetime videotape. this 5-minute vhs videotape uses a dramatic format to highlight the important facts about the early detection of breast cancer by mammography. una vez al ano...para toda una vida videotape. this 27- minute spanish videotape informs spanish-speaking women of the need for medical screening, particularly mammography. it explains commonly misunderstood facts about breast cancer and early detection. the program, in a dramatic format, features edward james olmos and cristina saralegui. once a year...for a lifetime speaker's kit (slide show). this kit includes 66 full-color slides and a number- coded, ready-to-read script suitable for a mammography presentation to a large group. it addresses the misconceptions prevalent about mammography and urges women age 40 and older to get regular mammograms so that breast cancer can be detected as early as possible. kit hicnet medical newsletter page 27 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 includes a guide, poster, media announcement, news feature, flyer, and pamphlets on mammography. this kit is available directly by writing to: modern, 5000 park street north, st. petersburg, fl 33709-9989. --------- end of part 2 ------------ internet: david@stat.com fax: +1 (602) 451-1165 bitnet: atw1h@asuacad fidonet=> 1:114/15 amateur packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na 
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 ------------- cut here ----------------- call for employers to keep information about the hiv status of health-care workers confidential. but doctors who know of an hiv-positive colleague who has not sought advice must inform the employing authority and the appropriate professional regulatory body. the guidelines also emphasize the significance of notifying all patients on whom an invasive procedure has been done by an infected health-care worker. a model letter to patients who have come into contact with such an individual is provided, along with suggestions for health officials on how to deal with the media. in addition, a u.k. advisory panel on hiv infection in health-care workers has been formed to provide specific occupational recommendations to those treating such patients. "properties of an hiv 'vaccine'" nature (04/08/93) vol. 362, no. 6420, p. 504 (volvovitz, franklin and smith, gale) the questions raised by moore et al. about recombinant gp160 envelope glycoprotein precursor from hiv-1 produced by microgenesys are advantages rather than disadvantages, write franklin volvovitz and gale smith of microgenesys in meriden, conn. moore et al. says that gp160 in a baculovirus expression system does not bind strongly to the cd4 receptor, and that this recombinant gp160 does not stimulate the same antibodies as the hiv-1 virus does in natural infection. but vaccination with recombinant gp160 in patients infected with hiv-1 broadens hiv-1 specific envelope-directed immune responses, including crossreactive antibodies to gp160 epitopes and cd4 and cd8 cytotoxic t-cell responses. volvovitz and smith claim that they never intended their gp160 molecule to be identical to the native protein. antibody responses against native hiv-1 proteins, including the types described by moore et al., exist in nearly all aids patients but do not prevent hicnet medical newsletter page 42 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 progression of hiv disease. in addition, the binding of gp120 or gp120- antibody complexes to cd4 has been shown to interfere with antigen specific activation of cd4 cells and trigger programmed cell death in vitro, which may contribute to the pathogenesis of hiv infection. the absence of cd4 binding by the microgenesys gp160 vaccine may therefore be viewed as an added safety feature. phase i studies have demonstrated stable cd4 counts, stimulation of cytotoxic t cells, and the suggestion of restoration of immune function. based on these and other clinical results, microgenesys gp160 was chosen by researchers at the karolinska institute in sweden for the first phase iii vaccine therapy studies, conclude volvovitz and smith. "hiv-1 infection: breast milk and hiv-1 transmission" lancet (04/10/93) vol. 341, no. 8850, p. 930 (mok, jacqueline) there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv-1-positive women breastfeeding their babies, writes jacqueline mok of the lancet. the anti-infective properties of milk are well documented. while the numbers of leukocytes, concentrations of lactoferrin and iga, and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels, lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months, with 90 percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga. breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses, in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv-positive mothers. the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv- 1 infected children had a longer median incubation time (19 months) than bottlefed infants (9.7 months). breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids. there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv-1 infection. studies of the biological properties of milk from 15 hiv-1 infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins, as well as iga antibodies against core antigens. binding of hiv-1 to the cd4 receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor. in the developing world, where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality, breast milk is still the best food for infants, regardless of the mother's hiv status. transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded. the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids, concludes mok. "absence of hiv transmission from an infected dentist to his patients" journal of the american medical association (04/14/93) vol. 269, no. 14, p. 1802 (dickinson, gordon m. et al.) if universal precautions are practiced, the risk of hiv transmission from dentist to patient appears to be infinitesimal, write gordon m. dickinson hicnet medical newsletter page 43 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 et al. of the university of miami school of medicine in miami, fla. the researchers contacted all patients treated by a dentist with aids and attempts were made to contact all patients for hiv testing. living patients with newly detected hiv infection were interviewed, and dna sequence analysis was performed to compare genetic relatedness of their hiv to that of the dentist. death certificates were obtained for deceased patients, and the medical records of those with diagnoses suggestive of hiv disease or drug abuse and those dying under the age of 50 years were examined in detail. there were 1,192 patients who had undergone 9,267 procedures, of whom 124 were deceased. an examination of the death certificates of patients identified five who had died with hiv infection, all of whom were either homosexuals or iv-drug users. the researchers were able to detect 962 of the remaining 1,048 patients, and 900 agreed to be tested. hiv infection was reported in five of the 900 patients, including four who had clear evidence of risk factors for the disease. one patient who had only a single evaluation by the dentist denied high-risk behavior. comparative dna sequence analysis showed that the viruses from the dentists and these five patients were not closely related. the study suggests the potential for hiv transmission from a general dentist to his patients is minimal in a setting in which universal precautions are strictly observed, conclude dickinson et april 22, 1993 "aids patients are susceptible to recurrences of tb, study says" washington post (04/22/93), p. a13 tuberculosis can strike aids patients more than once, which makes the resurging health hazard harder to control, according to a study published in today's new england journal of medicine. people who contract tb usually develop an immunity that protects them if they are exposed to the bacteria again. but a person whose immune system is depleted may not be able to fight off a new tb infection, doctors found. peter m. small of the howard hughes medical institute at stanford university, director of the study, said that in order to protect against reinfection, it may be necessary for some people to use tb medicines permanently. the study examined the genetic makeup of tb bacteria and how the germs changed over time in 17 patients at kings county hospital in new york. "hiv-1 infection: breast milk and hiv-1 transmission" lancet (04/10/93) vol. 341, no. 8850, p. 930 (mok, jacqueline) there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv-1-positive women breastfeeding their babies, writes jacqueline mok of the lancet. the anti-infective properties of milk are well documented. while the numbers of hicnet medical newsletter page 44 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 leukocytes, concentrations of lactoferrin and iga, and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels, lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months, with 90 percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga. breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses, in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv-positive mothers. the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv- 1 infected children had a longer median incubation time (19 months) than bottlefed infants (9.7 months). breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids. there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv-1 infection. studies of the biological properties of milk from 15 hiv-1 infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins, as well as iga antibodies against core antigens. binding of hiv-1 to the cd4 receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor. in the developing world, where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality, breast milk is still the best food for infants, regardless of the mother's hiv status. transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded. the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids, concludes mok. "hiv and the aetiology of aids" lancet (04/10/93) vol. 341, no. 8850, p. 957 (duesberg, peter) because there is no proof that hiv is the cause of aids, the hypothesis that drug use leads to aids will hopefully become a hindrance to the physiologically (azt) and psychologically (positive aids test) toxic public health initiatives, writes peter duesberg of the university of california-- berkeley. in the lancet's march 13 issue, schechter et al. call duesberg's hypothesis that injected and orally used recreational drugs and azt lead to aids, "a hindrance to public health initiatives." however, their hypothesis that hiv is the cause of aids has not attained any public health benefits. the u.s. government spends $4 billion annually, but no vaccine, no therapy, no prevention, and no aids control have resulted from work on this hypothesis. schechter et al. conclude that hiv has a key role in cd4 depletion and aids based on epidemiological correlations with antibodies against hiv and with self reported recreational drug use among homosexuals from vancouver. however, their survey neglects to disprove duesberg's drug- aids hypothesis, because it does not provide controls--i.e., confirmed drug- free aids cases--and because it does not quantify drug use and ignores azt use altogether. to refute duesberg's hypothesis schechter would have to produce a controlled study demonstrating that over a period of up to 10 years hiv-positive patients who use recreational drugs or azt or both have the same aids risks as positives who do not do so. the 10 year period is claimed by hicnet medical newsletter page 45 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 proponents of the hiv hypothesis to be the time needed for hiv to cause aids. alternatively, they could show that hiv-free individuals who have used drugs for 10 years never get aids-defining illnesses, concludes duesberg. "rapid decline of cd4+ cells after ifna treatment in hiv-1 infection" lancet (04/10/93) vol. 341, no. 8850, p. 959 (vento, sandro et al.) interferon (ifn), which induces autoantibodies and autoimmune diseases in some settings, may hasten cd4 t-cell loss in some hiv-1 infected individuals through the amplification of harmful "autoimmune" reactions, write sandro vento et al. of the a. pugliese hospital in catanzaro, italy. the researchers report three asymptomatic hiv-1 infected individuals with hepatitis c virus related chronic active hepatitis (cah) who had a rapid, profound decline of cd4 cells after ifn. all three patients throughout the observation were consistently negative for serum hiv p24 antigen and had circulating antibodies to p24. sera from all three patients, obtained at the end of ifn treatment and testing in enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, contained high titres of antibodies reacting to a sequence located in the aminoterminal of the beta chain of all human hla class ii antigens, homologous to a sequence located in the carboxy terminus of hiv-1 gp41. these autoantibodies, which also recognize "native" class ii molecules and may contribute to the elimination of cd4 t cells "in vivo", were at low tires (50-100) in all three patients six months after stopping ifn. such autoantibodies were not detected in 28 other patients with hiv infection and hcv related cah treated with ifn and who did not experience cd4 t-cell loss in some hiv-1 infected individuals through the amplification of harmful "autoimmune" reactions. the subjects had a1; b8; dr3; and b35, dr1 hla antigen combinations which are linked with a more rapid fall in cd4 cell counts and clinical progression of hiv-1 disease. ifn can induce a very rapid decline of cd4 cells and should be used cautiously in patients with these hla haplotypes, the researchers conclude. april 23, 1993 "tb makes a comeback" state government news (04/93) vol. 36, no. 4, p. 6 (voit, william and knapp, elaine s.) although tuberculosis was once believed to be eliminated in the united states, it is emerging again among the homeless, aids patients, immigrants, minorities, and prisoners. dr. lee b. reichman, professor of medicine at the university of new jersey medical school and president of the american lung association, said, "right now, it's a big city problem, but potentially it's everyone's problem." the ala predicts that 10 million americans are infected with tb, and about 10 percent of them will develop the disease because their immune systems are depressed, especially those with aids or hiv. gene hicnet medical newsletter page 46 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 tammes, a centers for disease control expert, said that is why the cdc has issued guidelines warning hospitals and institutions not to mix aids with tb patients. state health officials believe the tb is also spreading because those who are most susceptible are the least likely to follow through with treatment. in addition, the increase is attributed to a shortage of public health services. in new york city, tb is an epidemic "because the number of cases is increasing faster than we can treat people," said dr. george diferdinando, director of the new york state tb control. according to diferdinando, curbing the spread of tb entails keeping 85 percent or more of diagnosed tb cases in treatment. about 40 percent of infected new york city residents don't complete therapy. when tb patients don't finish taking their medication, multi-drug resistant tb can develop, which requires taking more expensive drugs and can take two years instead of the normal six months to "increasing frequency of heterosexually transmitted aids in southern florida: artifact or reality?" american journal of public health (04/93) vol. 83, no. 4, p. 571 (nwanyanwu, okey c. et al.) the alarmingly high rate of heterosexually acquired aids cases in southern florida was partially related to misclassification of risk, write okey c. nwanyanwu et al. of the centers for disease control in atlanta, ga. the researchers investigated 168 such aids cases from broward and coastal palm beach counties. all of these cases attributed to heterosexual transmission reported sexual contact with bisexual men, injecting drug users, or persons born in countries where heterosexual contact is the primary route of hiv transmission. medical records of patients, in addition to records from social services, hiv counseling and testing centers, and sexually transmitted disease (std) clinics were reviewed. if no other hiv risk factor was found from medical record review, patients were interviewed using a standardized questionnaire. once std clinic and other medical records were reviewed, 29 men and 7 women were reclassified into other hiv transmission categories. after adjustments were made for the reclassification, the percentage of aids cases reported from palm beach and broward counties between january 1, 1989, and march 31, 1990, that was attributed to heterosexual transmission decreased from 10 percent to 6 percent among men and from 33 percent to 28 percent among women. while the percentage of heterosexually transmitted aids cases in southern florida decreased after adjustment was made for reclassified cases, it still remained above the national average, the researchers conclude. hicnet medical newsletter page 47 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 aids statistics world health organization, geneva organisation mondiale de la sante, geneve weekly epidemiological record releve epidemiologique hebdomadaire 15 january 1993 - 68th year acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (aids) data as at 31 december 1992 syndrome d'immunodeficience acquise (sida) donnees au 31 decembre 1992 number date of of cases report country/area - nombre date pays/territoire de cas de notifi- africa - afrique algeria - algerie 92 31.08.91 angola 514 24.09.92 benin - benin 247 31.03.92 botswana 353 30.06.92 burkina faso 1,263 20.03.92 burundi 6,052 20.03.92 cameroon - cameroun 1,407 05.10.92 cape verde - cap-vert 52 08.02.92 central african republic - republique centrafricaine 1,864 20.03.92 chad - tchad 382 17.09.92 comoros - comores 3 11.03.92 congo 3,482 30.01.92 cote d'ivoire 10,792 09.03.92 djibouti 265 17.12.92 egypt - egypte 57 17.12.92 equatorial guinea - guinee equatoriale 13 16.05.92 ethiopia - ethiopie 3,978 11.11.92 hicnet medical newsletter page 48 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 gabon 215 31.05.92 gambia - gambie 180 25.02.92 ghana 3,612 01.07.92 guinea - guinee 338 20.03.92 guinea-bissau - guinee-bissau 189 13.07.92 kenya 31,185 01.10.92 lesotho 64 31.03.92 liberia - liberia 28 31.03.92 libyan arab jamahiriya - jamahiriya arabe libyenne 7 17.12.92 madagascar 2 06.11.92 malawi 22,300 02.12.92 mali 1,111 17.07.92 mauritania - mauritanie 36 19.07.92 mauritius - maurice 11 29.02.92 morocco - maroc 121 17.12.92 mozambique 538 10.10.92 namibia - namibie 311 20.03.92 niger 497 07.02.92 nigeria - nigeria 184 12.03.92 reunion - reunion 65 20.03.92 rwanda 8,483 12.11.92 sao tome and principe - sao tome-et-principe 11 03.07.92 senegal - senegal 648 09.03.92 seychelles --- 18.02.92 sierra leone 40 20.03.92 somalia - somalie 13 17.12.92 south africa - afrique du sud 1,316 30.06.92 sudan - soudan 650 17.12.92 swaziland 197 08.07.92 togo 1,278 03.04.92 tunisia - tunisie 114 17.12.92 uganda - ouganda 34,611 01.11.92 united republic of tanzania - republique-unie de tanzanie 34,605 31.05.92 zaire - zaire 18,186 14.05.92 zambia - zambie 6,556 15.10.92 zimbabwe 12,514 31.03.92 total 211,032 hicnet medical newsletter page 49 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 americas - ameriques anguilla 6 10.12.92 antigua and barbuda - antigua-et-barbuda 6 10.12.92 argentina - argentine 1,820 10.12.92 bahamas 934 10.12.92 barbados - barbade 315 10.12.92 belize 53 10.12.92 bermuda - bermudes 199 10.12.92 bolivia - bolivie 49 10.12.92 brazil - bresil 31,364 10.12.92 british virgin islands - iles vierges britanniques 4 10.12.92 canada 6,889 10.12.92 cayman islands - iles caimanes 13 10.12.92 chile - chili 573 10.12.92 colombia - colombie 2,957 10.12.92 costa rica 419 10.12.92 cuba 137 10.12.92 dominica - dominique 12 10.12.92 dominican republic - republique dominicaine 1,809 10.12.92 ecuador - equateur 224 10.12.92 el salvador 382 10.12.92 french guiana - guyane francaise 232 10.12.92 grenada - grenade 32 10.12.92 guadeloupe 182 10.12.92 guatemala 273 10.12.92 guyana 333 10.12.92 haiti - haiti 3,086 10.12.92 honduras 1,976 10.12.92 jamaica - jamaique 361 10.12.92 martinique 227 10.12.92 mexico - mexique 11,034 10.12.92 montserrat 1 10.12.92 netherlands antilles and aruba - antilles neerlandaises et aruba 110 10.12.92 nicaragua 31 10.12.92 panama 388 10.12.92 paraguay 51 10.12.92 peru - perou 614 10.12.92 hicnet medical newsletter page 50 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 saint kitts and nevis - saint-kitts-et-nevis 37 10.12.92 saint lucia - sainte-lucie 48 10.12.92 saint vincent and the grenadines - saint- vincent-et-grenadines 41 10.12.92 suriname 122 10.12.92 trinidad and tobago - trinite-et-tobago 1,085 10.12.92 turks and caicos islands - iles turques et caiques 25 10.12.92 united states of america - etats-unis d'amerique 242,146 10.12.92 uruguay 310 10.12.92 venezuela 2,173 10.12.92 total 313,083 asia - asie afghanistan --- 17.12.92 bahrain - bahrein 3 31.03.92 bangladesh 1 30.11.92 bhutan - bhoutan --- 30.11.92 brunei darussalam - brunei darussalam 2 19.12.91 burma see myanmar - birmanie voir myanmar cambodia - cambodge --- 31.10.92 china(a) - chine(a) 11 28.04.92 cyprus - chypre 24 17.12.92 democratic people's republic of korea - republique populaire democratique de coree --- 30.11.92 hong kong 61 26.09.92 india - inde 242 30.11.92 indonesia - indonesie 24 30.11.92 iran (islamic republic of) - iran (republique islamique d') 56 17.12.92 iraq 7 17.12.92 israel - israel 192 17.12.92 hicnet medical newsletter page 51 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 japan - japon 508 04.12.92 jordan - jordanie 24 17.12.92 kuwait - koweit 7 17.12.92 lao people's democratic republic - republique democratique populaire lao 1 23.04.92 lebanon - liban 35 17.12.92 macao 2 03.11.92 malaysia - malaisie 46 25.05.92 maldives --- 30.11.92 mongolia - mongolie 1 30.11.92 myanmar 16 30.11.92 nepal - nepal 12 30.11.92 oman 27 17.12.92 pakistan 25 17.12.92 philippines 80 07.10.92 qatar 31 17.12.92 republic of korea - republique de coree 10 19.11.92 saudi arabia - arabie saoudite 46 17.12.92 singapore - singapour 43 05.08.92 sri lanka 20 30.11.92 syrian arab republic - republique arabe syrienne 19 17.12.92 thailand - thailande 909 30.11.92 turkey - turquie 89 17.12.92 united arab emirates - emirats arabes unis 8 17.12.92 viet nam --- 28.04.92 yemen - yemen --- 17.12.92 total 2,582 albania - albanie --- 30.09.92 austria - autriche 828 30.09.92 belarus - belarus 6 30.09.92 belgium - belgique 1,224 17.12.92 bulgaria - bulgarie 16 17.12.92 czechoslovakia - tchecoslovaquie 32 17.12.92 denmark - danemark 1,072 17.12.92 finland - finlande 112 17.12.92 hicnet medical newsletter page 52 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 france 21,487 17.12.92 germany - allemagne 8,893 17.12.92 greece - grece 689 17.12.92 hungary - hongrie 105 17.12.92 iceland - islande 22 17.12.92 ireland - irlande 294 17.12.92 italy - italie 14,783 17.12.92 latvia - lettonie 2 30.09.92 lithuania - lituanie 2 30.09.92 luxembourg 55 17.12.92 malta - malte 25 17.12.92 monaco 9 17.12.92 netherlands - pays-bas 2,330 17.12.92 norway - norvege 283 17.12.92 poland - pologne 118 17.12.92 portugal 1,007 17.12.92 romania - roumanie 2,073 17.12.92 russian federation - federation de russie 94 30.09.92 san marino - saint-marin 1 17.12.92 spain - espagne 14,991 17.12.92 sweden - suede 743 17.12.92 switzerland - suisse 2,691 17.12.92 united kingdom - royaume-uni 6,510 17.12.92 yugoslavia(b) - yougoslavie(b) 313 30.09.92 total 80,810 oceania - oceanie american samoa - samoa americaines --- 18.11.92 australia - australie 3,615 02.12.92 cook islands - iles cook --- 18.02.92 federated states of micronesia - etats federes de micronesie 2 01.09.92 fiji - fidji 4 28.11.91 french polynesia - polynesie francaise 27 28.11.91 guam 10 13.09.91 kiribati --- 08.11.91 mariana islands - iles mariannes 4 14.10.92 marshall islands - iles marshall 2 18.03.91 nauru --- 17.12.92 new caledonia and dependencies - hicnet medical newsletter page 53 volume 6, number 11 april 25, 1993 nouvelle-caledonie et dependances 22 26.08.92 new zealand - nouvelle-zelande 348 03.11.92 niue --- 18.02.92 palau --- 15.10.92 papua new guinea - papouasie- nouvelle-guinee 45 10.08.92 samoa 1 18.02.92 solomon islands - iles salomon --- 19.12.91 tokelau --- 18.02.92 tonga 2 24.07.92 tuvalu --- 22.11.92 vanuatu --- 08.06.92 wallis and futuna islands - iles wallis et futuna --- 27.05.91 total 4,082 world total - total mondial 611,589 (a) the above statistics relating to china do not include 48 cases of aids in the province of taiwan. -- les statistiques ci-dessus se rapportant a la chine ne comprennent pas 48 cas de sida dans la province de taiwan. (b) refers to republics and areas of the former socialist federal republic of yugoslavia: bosnia and herzegovina; croatia; macedonia; montenegro; serbia; slovenia. -- se refere aux republiques et territoires de l'ancienne republique federative socialiste de yougoslavie: bosnie-herzegovine; croatie; macedoine; montenegro; serbie; slovenie. hicnet medical newsletter page 54 ------------- cut here ----------------- -- this is the last part --------------- internet: david@stat.com fax: +1 (602) 451-1165 bitnet: atw1h@asuacad fidonet=> 1:114/15 amateur packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na 
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 :when i was a school boy, my biology teacher told us of an incident :in which a couple were very passionate without actually having :sexual intercourse. somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm :cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation. :was my biology teacher misinforming us, or do such incidents actually :occur? sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg. there is only one way for pregnancy to occur: intercourse. these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques, but we're speaking of "natural" acts here. it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina (i.e. coitus interruptus), but that's about at far as you can get. through clothes -- no way. better go talk to your biology teacher. = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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 i've seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays. in the examples i've seen, drugs were definitely involved. speaking from experience, one doesn't need drugs to become disoriented during hospital stays. i was in hosp for 5 days in late jan; what with general noise at all hours of night, staff coming every time i turned over, or whatever, to check me out, i didn't get much sustained sleep at night. spent days groggy & dozing, and all it was from my perspective was that i was tired! bobm - let's *reinvent* hospital organization!s 
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 just one quick question: my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed. since he lives down in mexico, he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery, kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery. any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot!... thanks in advance. gary sheutter. at&t bell labs. 
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 |> |> krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident |> |> in |> |> the seas surrounding the antarctic. or pictures taken by them, perhaps. |> |> bill from oz |> bill, |> no flame intended but you're way, way off base. in simple terms kirilian |> photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects, in simple, |> it takes pictures of your aura. |> greg |> -- be still, be silent...the rest is easy. -- no flame intended, but i think you just missed one of the rare attempts of humor in sci.skeptic. "krillean" against "kirilian". get it? btw, i think you're a bit of base yourself, since, to my knowledge, the electromagnetic field around a stone is rather abscent. but still, a stone has a nice "aura" on the kirilian photographs. don't remember excactly, but "corona discharge" i think is a more fitting expression than aura. think you'll find something on this in the skeptic-faq. 
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 this is to followup my previous reply on this topic, which it has been pointed out to me might have been dangerously misleading in two spots. 1. i stated that psychotherapy (meaning talking therapy and so on) was used to treat obsessive compulsive disorder, which though sometimes true is misleading. it is not often found effective, particularly by itself. primary treatment today usually consists at least in part of drug therapy. the most current theories of this condition attribute it to more to biological causes than psychological, in places where this distinction becomes important. 2. i mentioned that the dsm-iiir mentions 'impulses' as a possible diagnostic marker. however, this might look like something people associate with psychotic conditions, uncontrollable or unpredictable behaviors, which is not the case with ocd. one of the diagnostic criteria of ocd is that the individual can and does suppress some of their 'impulses,' although they are an unending source of anxiety. the obsessive thoughts and ritualistic actions usually associated with ocd are most frequently very mundane and predictable, closer to a superstitious nature than a dangerous nature for the most part. some references (one non-technical and several technical) that someone was kind enough to supply for me but was unable to post themself : |"the boy who couldn't stop washing" by judith rapaport. *** (technical refs) : | pharmacotherapy of o-c disorder | donna m jermain and lynn crismon | pharmacotherapy 1990; 10(3):175-198 | epidemiology of ocd | seteven a rasmussen and jane eisen | j clin psychiatry 1990;51(2, suppl.):10-13 | the waking nightmare: an overview of ocd | judith l rapoport | j clin psychiatry 1990; 51(11, suppl.):25-28 | absence of placebo response in ocd | matig r mavissakalian, bruce jones, stephen olson | j nerv ment disease 1990 vol 178 no. 4 and thanks very much to those who supplied constructive criticism to my first post on ocd. i hope this helps clarify the parts that were misleading. kind regards, | todd i. stark stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com | | digital equipment corporation (215) 354-1273 | | philadelphia, pa. usa | | "(a word is) the skin of a living thought" olliver wendell holmes, jr. | 
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 poor person's kirlian photography (try this at home) 1. hold your hand up to a cold window. 2. look closely at the stunning corona effects around your fingertips. 3. remove hand (from window) and observe after image. 4. invent crackpot theory to explain the effect. advanced kirlian photography (try this at home, too) 1. get a camera 2. have your subject face you with his/her back to the sun. 3. take photo 4. observe the glow behind their silhouetted image on the photo 5. invent crackpot theory to explain the effect john mechalas "i'm not an actor, but mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu i play one on tv." aero engineering, purdue university #include disclaimer.h 
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 as for how foods taste: if i'm not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it, why shouldn't i use it? saying i shouldn't use it is like saying i shouldn't eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer. julie, it doesn't necessarily follow that you should use it (msg or something else for that matter) simply because you are not allergic to it. for example you might not be allergic to (animal) fats, and like their taste, yet it doesn't follow that you should be using them (regularly). msg might have other bad (or good, i am not up on knowledge of msg) effects on your body in the long run, maybe that's reason enough not to use it. perhaps i should quit eating mushrooms, soya beans, and brie cheese which all have msg in them. it occurs naturally. i'm not going to quit eating something that i like just because it *might* cause me trouble later or causes problems in *some* people. i would much rather avoid stress by not worrying over what goes in my mouth and not spending every day reading conflicting reports of what is good/bad for you. i may eat some things in quantities that may not be good for me. fine. i've made my decision and i don't think it's appropriate for anyone to try to 'convert' me. "it's for your own good" are the most obnoxious and harmful words, imo, in the english (or any other) language. altho' your example of the ulcer is funny, it isn't an appropriate comparison at all. i think it is. i get tired of people saying 'don't eat x because it's bad!' well, x may not be bad for everyone. and even if it is, so what? give people all the information but don't ram your decisions down their throats. disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
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 i don't like the term "quack" being applied to a licensed physician david. questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical(in my opinion). 3. using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous(cyanide release) by the nci. hmm. this is certainly among the things i would refer to as quack therapy and would tend to refer to any practitioner who prescribed laetrile (whether licensed or not) as a quack. there are unethical behaviors (such as ordering unneccessary tests to increase fees) which i would not lable as quackish, but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a quack. david rind one of the responsibilities of a licensed physician is to read the medical literature to keep up with changes in medical practice. all the clamor over laetril resulted in the nci spending quite a bit of money on clinical trials which proved(to me anyway) that laetril was ineffective against cancer. a physician who continued to use it, when better, more effective, treatments are available, may deserve to be called a quack. anti-fungals are in a different class. the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that *could* be due to candida blooms following the use of broad-spectrum antibiotics? gorden rubenfeld, through e-mail, has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad-spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with *good* bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body. i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice. he deals with critical care patients where fungal infection(systemic) is a real problem and just because he tries to keep *good* bacteria in his patients does not mean that all physicians do this. i think that aspergillis is more likely to be found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida. women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti-fungal creams. since candida colonizes primarily in the ano-rectal area, gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad-spectrum antibiotic use. the problem we have here david is proof that gi discomfort can be caused by a candida bloom. the arguement is that without proof, no action is medicine has not, and probalby never will be, practiced this way. there has always been the use of conventional wisdom. a very good example is kidney stones. conventional wisdom(because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention), was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming. clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed. through the recent new england j of medicine article, we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong, increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake. the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with *good* bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy. if it makes sense for livestock, why doesn't it make sense for humans david? we are not talking about a dangerous treatment(unless you consider yogurt dangerous). if this were a standard part of medical practice, as gordon r. says it is, then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline. marty b. 
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<instance id="sci.med59306">
<answer instance="sci.med59306" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic. or pictures taken by them, perhaps. no flame intended but you're way, way off base. in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects, in simple, it takes pictures of your aura. greg, no flame intended, but you have no discernible sense of humor. what bill wrote was intended to be funny. it's called a "joke", greg. look into it. besides, kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend's two-year-old son kiril. perhaps you meant "kirlian"? mark meyer | mmeyer@dseg.ti.com | texas instruments, inc., plano tx +--------------------+ every day, jerry junkins is grateful that i don't speak for ti. "you have triggered primary defense mechanism." "blast!" "affirmative." 
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 i use a zygon mind machine as bought in the usa last year. although it's no wonder cure for what ail's you. it is however very good at stopping you thinking! sound strange? well suppose you're tired and want to go to bed/sleep. but your head is full of niggling problems to resolve, you lay in the bed, and quickly they all come to the surface, churning around from one unresolved thing to the next and then back again. been there, bought the t-shirt? i slip on the zygon and select a soothing pattern of light & sound, and quickly i just can't concentrate on the previous stuff. your brain's cache kinda get's flushed, and you start on a whole new set of stuff. a useful addition, is the facility to feed the output of a tape player or cd through the box, i use new age elevator muzak to enhance the overall effect. deffo better than a pill. cheers nigel * nigel ballard | int: nigel@dataman.demon.co.uk | i'm pink * * bournemouth uk | cis: 100015.2644 radio-g1hoi | therefore i'm spam * 
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 does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through in her personal life with severe mood swings. did she have some form of chemical imbalance that triggered these problems? i recall that she wrote a book about her troubles. does someone have the title of that book? 
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<instance id="sci.med59313">
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 [synopsis] young man with inguianl hernia on one side, repaired, now has new hernia on other side. what gives, he asks? [and he continues...] of course, my wife thinks it's from sitting for long periods of time at the computer, reading news... there is the possibility that there is some degree of constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements. the classic problems that are supposed to be looked for in someone with a hernia are constipation, chronic cough, colon cancer (and you're not too young for that) and sitting for long periods of time at the computer, reading news. good luck with your surgery! steve holland 
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 by the way ms. olmstead dna is not degraded in the stomach nor under ph of 2. its degraded in the duodenum under approx. neutral ph by dnaase enzymes secreted by the pancreas. my point: check your facts before yelling at other people for not doing so. just a friendly suggestion. aaj 4/26/93 
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 somewhere or other i read that when a person of chinese heritage was told that he had high blood pressure he responded by eating celery (sorry, i don't recall the "dosage"). apparently this is supposed to work in reducing hypertension. can anyone out there verify this? and if it does work, does anyone know the appropriate amounts and possible side-effects? leon traister (lmtra@uts.amdahl.com) 
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<instance id="sci.med59319">
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 i have a fairly severe high frequency hearing loss. a recent rough test showed a gently sloping loss to 10-20db down at 1000cps. then it falls off a cliff to 70-80dbs down from 1500cps on. this type of loss is difficult to fit. i am currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep me roughly functional, but leave a lot to be desired. recently i had an opportunity to test the widex q8 behind the ear aids for several weeks. these have four independent programs which are intended to be customized for different hearing situations and can be reprogramed. i found them to be a definite improvement over my current aids and was about to go ahead with them until another local outfit advertised a free trial of another programmable system called resound. unfortunately i was only able to try the resound aids in their office for about 30 minutes and i couldn't compare them 'head to head' with the widex. nevertheless, it did appear to me that they were superior and i was impressed by what i was able to read about the theory behind them which i will give in a separate posting. they also carry the widex aids and had one patient (presumably wealthy) who decided to go ahead and get the resound even though he had purchased the widex only 6 months ago. the problem is that the resound aids are about twice as expensive as the widex and other programmable aids. i could take a trip to europe on the difference! being a lover of bargains and hating to spend money, i am having a hard time persuading myself to go with the resounds. i would appreciate any opinions on this and other hearing aids and projections about when and if i might see improvements in technology that aren't quite so expensive. -rich haller <rhaller@ns.uoregon.edu> university of oregon, eugene, or, 
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 could the people discussing recreational drugs such as mj, lsd, mdma, etc., take their discussions to alt.drugs? their discussions will receive greatest contribution and readership there. the people interested in strictly "smart drugs" (i.e. nootropics) should post to this group. the two groups (alt.drugs & alt.psychoactives) have been used interchangably lately. i do think that alt.psychoactives is a deceiving name. alt.psychoactives is supposedly the "smart drug" newsgroup according to newsgroup lists on the usenet. should we establish an alt.nootropics or alt.sdn (smart drugs & nutrients)? i have noticed some posts in sci.med.nutrition regarding "smart nutrients." we may lower that groups burden as well. i beg to disagree with you on this subject. if i recall correctly, alt.drugs was being flodded by posts like "how do i grow mj" "how do i use a bong?" "wow, man, i just had the coolest trip" etc... there were quite a few people out there who were versed in pharmacology and biology who wanted to discuss centrally active substabces at a higher level without all the other crap filling the bandwidth. i would suggest that you proceed to create a newsgroup dedicated to nootropics if you must have one dedicated to them, and leave alt.psychoactives to the discussion of psychoactives (including nootropics, which are but a small portion of the realm of centrally active substances). i was wondering if a group called 'sci.pharmacology' would be relevent. this would be used for a more formal discussion about pharmacological issues (pharmacodynamics, neuropharmacology, etc.) just an informal proposal (i don't know anything about the net.politics for adding a newsgroup, etc.) [more alt.psychoactives stuff deleted] andersom@spot.colorado.edu 
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 the following is based on copies i was given of some articles published in hearing instruments. i would appreciate any comments about this and other 'new' technology for hearing aids. the resound system was developed on the basis of some research at at&t and appears to take a different approach from other aids. it appears to me that a new 'programmable' aid like the widex just uses a more flexible (and programmable) version of the classical approach of amplifying some parts of the spectrum more than others and adding some compression to try and help out in 'noisy' situations. the major difference in the resound approach is that it divides the spectrum into low and high frequencies (splitting point is programmable), apparently based on the fact that lots of vowel information can be found in the low frequencies, while the important consonant information (unfortunately for me) is in the high frequencies. the two bands then are treated with different compression schemes which are programable. they have also developed a new fitting algorythm that builds on what they call 'abnormal growth of loudness'. this latter is interesting and fits my own personal experience, though i think the phrase is missleading. what appears to be the case is that as you exceed the minimum threshold for a person with hearing loss, the deficit becomes progresslively less compared to normals and by the time you reach the 'too loud' point the sensitivity curves appear to converge. this means that if you just boost all sound levels, you are overloading at the high end for people with hearing losses. hence what you want is progressively less amplification as the signal get closer to the maximum tolerable point. you want to boost low volume sounds more than high and do so potentially differently for the low and high frequency parts of the spectrum (specially for someone like me who is relatively normal up to 1000 cps and then falls off a cliff). aids with simple compressors don't descriminate between energy in the low and high frequencies and can therefor 'compress' useful high frequency information because of high volume of low frequency components. particularly impressive was the resound performance with whispered speech and in simulated restaurant noise situations. -rich haller <rhaller@ns.uoregon.edu> university of oregon, eugene, or, 
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 to candida blooms following the use of broad-spectrum antibiotics? gorden rubenfeld, through e-mail, has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad-spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with *good* bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body. i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice. nor is it mine. what i tried to explain to marty was that it is clearly understood that antibiotic exposure is a risk factor for fungal infections - which is not the same as saying bacteria prevent fungal infections. marty made this sound like a secret known only to veternarians and biochemists. anyone who has treated a urinary tract infection knowns this. at some centers pre-op liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed at retaining "good" anaerobic flora in an attempt to prevent fungal colonization in this soon-to-be high risk group. i also use lactobacillus to treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea (that may be in part due to alterations in gut flora). however, it is not part of my routine practice to "reinnoculate" patients with "good" bacteria after antibiotics. i have seen no data on this practice preventing or treating fungal infections in at risk patients. whether or not it is a "logical extension" from the available observations i'll leave to those of you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations in the absence of clinical trials. one place such therapy has been described is in treating particularly recalcitrant cases of c. difficile colitis (not a fungal infection). there are case reports of using stool (ie someone elses) enemas to repopulate the patients flora. don't try this at home. not give give her advise to use the otc anti-fungal creams. since candida colonizes primarily in the ano-rectal area, gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad-spectrum antibiotic use. except that it isn't. at least symptomatically apparent disease. medicine has not, and probalby never will be, practiced this way. there has always been the use of conventional wisdom. a very good example is kidney stones. conventional wisdom(because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention), was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming. clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed. through the recent new england j of medicine article, we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong, increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake. seems like this is an excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom (a euphemism for no data) and doing a good clinical trial, like: au dismukes-w-e. wade-j-s. lee-j-y. dockery-b-k. hain-j-d. ti a randomized, double-blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome [see comments] so n-engl-j-med. 1990 dec 20. 323(25). p 1717-23. psychological tests. results. the three active-treatment regimens and the all-placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms (p less than 0.001), but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo. [ . . . ] conclusions. in women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome, nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo. consequently, the empirical recommendation of long-term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted. does this trial address every issue raised here, no. jon noring was not surprised at this negative trial since they didn't use *sporanox* (despite crook's recommendation for nystatin). maybe they didn't avoid those carbohydrates . . . the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with *good* bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy. if it makes sense for livestock, why doesn't it make sense for humans david? we are not talking about a dangerous treatment(unless you consider yogurt dangerous). if this were a standard part of medical practice, as gordon r. says it is, then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline. marty, you've also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms (noring syndrome) to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis (elaine palmer syndrome) with systemic symptoms. there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials. are we talking about "real" candida infections, the whole "yeast connection" hypothesis, the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans, or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies (challenged by a negative randomized trial) to confirm an etiologic hypothesis (post hoc ergo propter hoc). we can't seem to focus in on a disease, a therapy, or a hypothesis under discussion. i'm lost! 
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<instance id="sci.med59323">
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 this question came up in sci. med. nutrition and i'm posting my answer here. only 22 medical schools in the u.s. teach courses on human nutrition. we have already seen what a lack of nutrition education can do when candida and kidney stones present themselves to the medical community. i think that the best example of where u.s. medicine is really missing the mark when it comes to a knowledge of nutrition is pms. so many women(and their husbands) suffer from this disorder that it is really criminal that most physicians in the u.s. are not taught that pms is primarily caused by diet and diet changes can prevent it from ever happpening. before shooting your flames, read the entire article and then decide if flaming is from a poster in sci. medi. nutrition: in a psychological anthropology course i am taking, we got sidetracked onto a short conversation about pms. some rumors shared by several of the students included ideas that vitamin levels, sugar intake, and caffeine intake might affect pms symptoms. is there any data on this, or is it just so much hooey? many thanks, michael, i've wanted to reply to this post ever since i saw it but i got side-tracked with candida. pms is a lot like candida blooms, most physicians don't recognize it as a specific "disease" entity. here is everything that you would ever want to know about pms. premenstrual syndrome has been divided into four specific subgroups: pmt-a(anxiety) pmt-d(depression) anxiety depression irritability forgetfulness insomnia confusion depression lethargy pmt-c(craving) pmt-h(hyperhydration) craving for sweets weight gain increased appetite breast congestion and tenderness sugar ingestion causes: abdominal bloating and tenderness 1. headache edema of the face and extremities 2. palpitations 3. fatigue or fainting pmt-a is characterized by elevated blood estrogen levels and low progesterone levels during the luteal phase of a women's cycle. pmt-c is caused by the ingestion of large amounts of refined simple carbohydrates. during the luteal phase of a women's cycle, there is increased glucose tolerance with a flat glucose curve after oral glucose challenge. the metabolic findings believed to be responsible for pmt-c are a low magnesium and a low prostaglandin e1. this condition of hypoglycemia is not unique to pms but there are a number of different causes of hypoglycemia, magnesium and pge1 seem to be specific to pms hypoglycemia. a. am. j. psychiatry 147(4):477-80(1990). unrefined complex carbohydrate should be substituted for sugar, magnesium supplementation and alpha linoleic acid supplementation(increased to 5-6% of the total calories) using safflower oil or evening primrose oil as sources of alpha linoleic acid. pmt-d is characterized by elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase of a women's cycle. another cause of pmt-d has been found to be lead toxicity(in women without elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase). "effect of metal ions on the binding of estridol to human endometrial cystol" fertil. steril. 28:312-18(1972). pmt-h is associated with water and salt retention along with an elevated serum aldosterone level. salt restriction, b6, magnesium and vitamin e for breast tenderness have all been effective in treating pmt-h this general discussion of the pms syndromes came form: a. "management of the premenstrual tension sundromes: rational for a nutritional approach". 1986, a year in nutritional medicine. j. bland, ed. keats, publishing, 1986. b. "nutritional factors in the etiology of premenstrual tension syndromes", j. reprod. med.28(7):446-64(1983). c. "premenstrual tension", prob. obstet. gynecol. 3(12):1-39(1980) treatment has traditionally involved progesterone administration if you can find a doctor who will treat you for pms(just about as hard as finding one that will treat you for candida blooms). while progesterone will work, supplementation with vitamins and minerals works even better. there really has been an awful lot of research done on pms(much more than candida blooms). many of these studies have been what are called experimental controlled studies(the type of rigorous clinical studies that doctors like to see done). here are a few of these studies: carbohydrate: experimental controlled study, "effect of a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet on symptoms of cyclical mastopathy" lancet 2:128-32(1988). 21 pts with severe persistent cyclical mastopathy of at least 5 years duration were randomly selected to receive specific training to reduce dietary fat to 15% of total calories and increase complex carbohydrate ingestion or given general dietary advise with no training. after 6 months, there was a significant reduction in the severity of the breast swelling and tenderness in the trained group as reported by self-reported symptoms as well as physical exams which quantitated the degree of breast swelling, tenderness and nodularity. vitamin a: experimental controlled study, "the use of vitamin a in premenstrual tension" acta obstet. gynecol scand. 39:586-92(1960). 218 pts with severe recurring pms received 200,000 to 300,000iu vitamin a daily or a placebo. serum retinol levels were monitored and high dose supplementation was discontinued when evidence of toxicity occured(serum retinol above 450ug/ml). the intent of the study was to load the liver up with vitamin a and get a normal pool size(500,000iu to 1,000,000iu) and then see if this normal vitamin a pool could prevent pms. 48% getting the high dose vitamin a had complete remission of the symptoms of pms. only 10% getting the placebo reported getting complete relief of pms sysmptoms. 10% of the vitamin a treated group reported no improvement in pms experimental controlled study, "premenstrual tension treated with vitamin a" j. clinical endocrinology 10:1579-89(1950). 30 pts received 200,000iu of vitamin a daily starting on day 15 of their cycle with supplementation continuing until the onset of pms symptoms. after 2-6 months, all 30 pts reported a significant improvement in pms symptoms. vitamin a supplementation was stopped once evidence of toxicity was demonstrated and all 30 pts were followed for one year after high dose vitamin a supplementation was stopped. pms symptoms did not reoccur in any of these 30 pts for upto one year after the vitamin a supplementation was stopped. most americans do not have a normal store of vitamin a in their liver. these studies and several others were designed to see if getting a normal store of vitamin a into the liver could eliminate pms. of all the vitamins given for pms(vitamin a, b6, and vitamin e), vitamin a has shown the best single effect. this is probably because vitamin a is involved in steroid (estrogen/progesterone) metabolism in the liver. getting your liver full of vitamin a seems to be one of the best things that you can do to prevent the symptoms of pms. but vitamin a is toxic and you don't want to be trying to do this without being seen by a physician who can monitor you for vitamin a toxicity. vitamin b6: experimental double-blind crossoverr study, "pyridoxine (vitamin b6) and the premenstrual syndrome: a randomized crossover trial"j.r. coll. gen. pract. 39:364-68(1989). 32 women aged 18-49 with moderate to severe pms randomly received 50mg b6 daily or placebo. after 3 months the groups were switched and followed for another 3 months. b6 had a significant effect on the emotional aspects of pms(depression, irritability and tiredness). other symptoms of pms were not significanttly affected by b6 supplementation. experimental double-blind study, "the efects of vitamin b6 supplementation on premenstrual sysmptoms" obstet. gynecol 70(2):145-49(1987). 55 pts with moderate to severe pms received 150mg b6 daily or placebo for 2 months. analysis of convergence showed that b6 significantly improved premenstrual symptoms related to the autonomic nervous system(dizziness and vomiting) as well as behavior changes(poor mental performance, decreased social interaction) anxiety, depression and water retention were not improved by b6 vitamin b6 is below the rda for both american men and women. birth control pills and over 40 different drugs increase the b6 requirement in man. women on birth control pills should be supplemented with 10-15 mg of b6 per day. the dose should be increased if symptoms of pms appear. dr. david r. rubinow who heads the biological psychiatry branch of nimh was quoted in clin. psychiatry news, december, 1987 as stating that b6 should be considered the "first-line" drug for pms(over progesterone) and if the patient does not respond, then other treatments should be tried. vitamin b6 can be toxic(nerve damage) if consumed in doses of 500mg or more each vitamin e: experimental double-blind study, "efficacy of alpha- tocopherol in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome" j. reprod. med. 32(6):400-04(1987). 35 pts received 400iu vitamin e daily for 3 cycles or a placebo. vitamin e treated pts had 33% who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms(weight gain and breast tenderness) while the placebo group had 14% who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms. the vitamin e group reported that 38% had a significant reduction in anxiety versus 12% for the placebo group. for depression, the vitamin e group had 27% with a significant decrease in depression compared with 8% for the placebo group. experimental double-blind study, "the effect of alpha-tocopherol on premenstrual symptomalogy: a double blind study" j. am. coll. nutr. 2(2):115-122(1983). 75pts with benign breast disease and pmt randomly received vitamin e at 75iu, 150iu, or 300iu daily or placebo. after 2 months of supplementation, 150iu of vitamin e or higher significantly improved pmt-a and pmt-c. the 300iu dose was needed to significantly improve pmt-d. no dose of vitamin e significantly improved pmt-h (other studies have shown that a higher vitamin e doses will relieve pmt-h symptoms). magnesium: experimental double-blind study, "magnesium prophylaxis of menstrual migraine: effects on itracellular magnesium" headache 31:298-304(1991). 20 pts with perimenstrual headache received 360 mg daily of magnesium as magnesium pyrrolidone carboxylic acid or a placebo. treatment was started on the 15th day of the cycle and continued until menstruation. after 2 months, the pain total index was significantly lower in the magnesium group. magnesium treatment was also assocoiated with a significant reduction in the menstrual distress questionnaire scores. pretreatment magnesium levels in lymphocytes and polymorphonuclear leukocytes were significantly lower in this group of 20 pts compared to control women who did not suffer from pms. after treatment, magnesium levels in these cells was raised into the normal range. experimental double-blind study, "oral magnesium successfully relieves premenstrual mood changes" obstet. gynecol 78(2):177-81(1991). 32pts aged 24-39 randomly received either magnesium carboxylic acid 360mg of mg per day or a placebo from the 15th day of the cycle to the onset of the menstrual flow. after 2 cycles, both groups received magnesium. the menstrual distress questionnaire score of the cluster pain was significantly reduced during the second cycle(month) for the magnesium treatment group as well as the placebo group once they were switched to magnesium supplementation. in addition, the total score on the menstrual distress questionnaire was significantly decreased by magnesium supplementation. the authors suggest that magnesium supplemenation should become a routine treatment for the mood changes that occur during pms. there are numerous observational studies that have been published in the medical literature which also suggest that pms is primarily a disorder that arises out of a hormone imbalance that is dietary in nature. but since observational studies are considered by most physicians in sci. med. to be anecdotal in nature, i have not bothered to cite them. there are also over a half dozen good experimental studies that have been done on multivitamin and mineral supplementation to prevent pms. i've chosen the best specific studies on individual vitamins and minerals to try to point out that pms is primarily a nutritional disorder. but doctors don't recognize nutritional disorders unless they can see clinical pathology(beri-beri, pellagra, scruvy, etc.). pms is probably the best reason why every doctor being trained in the u.s. should get a good course on human nutrition. pms is really only the tip if the iceberg when it comes to nutritional disorders. it's time that medicine woke up and smelled the roses. here's some studies which show the importance in multivitamin/mineral supplementation and/or diet change in preventing pms. experimental study, "effect of a nutritional programme on premenstrual syndrome: a retrospective analysis", complement. med. res.5(1):8-11(1991). 200pts were given dietary instructions and supplemented with optivite(r) plus additional vitamin c, vitamin e, magnesium, zinc and primrose oil. the dietary instructions were to take the supplements and switch to a low fat, complex carbohydrate diet. on a retrospective analysis, 96.5% of the 200pts reported an improvement in their pms symptoms with 30% of the sample stating that they no longer suffered from pms. experimental double-blind study, "role of nutrition in managing premenstrual tension syndromes", j reprod. med. 32(6):405-22(1987). a low fat, high complex carbohydrate diet along with optivite supplementation significantly decreased pms scores compared with diet change and placebo. after 6 months on the experimental program, the vitamin/mineral supplementated group had significantly decreased estradiol and increased progesterone in serum during the midlutel phase of their cycle. experimental double-blind study, "clinical and biochemical effects of nutritional supplementation on the premenstrual syndrome", j. reprod. med. 32(6):435-41(1987). 119pts randomly given optivite(12 tablets per day) or a placebo. the treated groups showed a significant decrease in pms symptoms compared to the placebo. another group of 104pts got optivite(4 tablets per day) or placebo. for this second group of patients, no significant effect of supplementation on pms symptoms was observed. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine 1111 w. 17th st. tulsa, ok 74107 "without discourse, there is no remembering, without remembering, there is no learning, without learning, there is only ignorance" 
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 greg:flame definitely intended here. bill was making fun of the misspelling. go look up the word "krill." also, the correct spelling is kirlian. it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high-voltage source, not of some "aura." it works equally well with inanimate objects. true.. but what about showing the missing part of a leaf? is this "corona discharge"? "that is a dry turtle. that turtle is not moist!" ezra story, a student at rit, and eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu, his trusty(?) mailing address. 
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 i'm an avid dieter and the new miracle drug seems to involve thermo- genics. the drug is claimed to stimulate the brown fat to burn food creating eat as opposed to the fat being stored. there are all sorts of warnings about fevers, elevated blood pressure and heart rate, ect.. the silver lining is that apparently some weight loss does not require a change in diet. is this possible? are the pills dangerous or just 
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<answer instance="sci.med59329" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 does anyone know if either theophylline or ephedrine, or the two in combination, can reduce the body's ability to make use of available water? i had kind of an odd experience on a group hike recently, becoming dehyrated after about 9 hours of rigorous hiking despite having brought 1 1/2 gallons of water (c. 6 liters). i drank close to twice as much as anyone else, and no one else was dehydrated. i don't think general physical condition was an issue, since i was in at least the middle of the pack in terms of general stamina, so far as i could tell. it may be that i just plain need more water than most people. but i am wondering if theophylline and/or ephedrine might be aggravating things. i took a couple of primatene tablets during the hike to control asthma (24 mg. ephedrine, 100 mg. theophylline). i gather that both those drugs are diuretics. so now i'm wondering: does that mean they can reduce the body's ability to utilize available water? would it be a particularly stupid thing to take that medication during hot-weather exercise? (i always assumed diuresis just meant you urinated a lot, but that wasn't the case yesterday.) 
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<answer instance="sci.med59331" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i need information on the medical (including emotional :-) pros and cons of circumcision (at birth). i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages. a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper, and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision, the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer. please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group. i will summarize to the net. * gunnar blix * good advice is one of those insults that * * blix@cs.uiuc.edu * ought to be forgiven. -unknown * * gunnar blix * good advice is one of those insults that * * blix@cs.uiuc.edu * ought to be forgiven. -unknown * 
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<instance id="sci.med59334">
<answer instance="sci.med59334" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 to whomever who can help me, i am a doctor from kota bharu, kelantan, malaysia. i have recently hooked up my private home computer to email via the local telephone company. i am really interested in corresponding with other doctors or medical researchers through email. i also hope to be able to subscribe to a news network on medicine. can someone please tell me what i should do? i am completely new to this and have no idea about the vast capabilities of email. thank you for your attention. 
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<instance id="sci.med59340">
<answer instance="sci.med59340" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 besides, kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend's two-year-old son kiril. perhaps you meant "kirlian"? i think it was a typo for "karelian photography", which is the practice of taking pictures of either finns or russians, depending on whom one asks. eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59343">
<answer instance="sci.med59343" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : hello, : just one quick question: : my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors : have diagnosed an operation is needed. since he lives down in : mexico, he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in : the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery, : kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors : in eye surgery. any additional info or pointers will be : appreciated a whole lot!... there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its orthopedists, namely the hospital for special surgery. they are located on the upper east side of manhattan. if you want their address and phone let me know, i'll get them, i dont know them off hand. /\ _ /\ | felix the cat | 0 0 |-------\== the wonderful, wonderful cat! \==@==/\ ____\ | =============================== meow!--- \_-_/ || || hoss@panix.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59345">
<answer instance="sci.med59345" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hi all, ive applied for the class of 93 at quite a number of schools (20) and have gotten 13 rejects, 4 interviews and 3 no responses. any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters? according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march. whats going on... i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day. also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in, i kind of looked into chiropractic and podiatry but they really dont interest me. thanks. /\ _ /\ | felix the cat | 0 0 |-------\== the wonderful, wonderful cat! \==@==/\ ____\ | =============================== meow!--- \_-_/ || || hoss@panix.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59347">
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 * lyme disease electronic mail network * * lymenet newsletter * volume 1 - number 09 - 4/26/93 i. introduction ii. announcements iii. news from the wires iv. questions 'n' answers v. op-ed section vi. jargon index vii. how to subscribe, contribute and get back issues i. ***** introduction ***** in this issue of the newsletter, we learn of the cdc's announced concern for the "resurgence of infectious diseases" in the united states. thanks to jonathan lord for sending me the upi release. the cdc announced they would feature a new series of articles in the morbidity and mortality weekly report on these infectious diseases (ld is one of them). we will keep you up to date on this series. in addition, we feature a the wall street journal article on the legal issues surrounding ld. we also look at lyme's effects from the perspective of urologists in an abstract entitled "urinary dysfunction in lyme disease." finally, terry morse asks an intriguing question about a tick's habitat. ii. ***** announcements ***** source: the lyme disease update subject: call for articles attention health care professionals: the lyme disease update would like to publish your articles on lyme disease diagnosis, lyme treatment, and the effects on lyme on lyme patients' physical and mental health. the ldu has a monthly circulation of 6,000. our mailing list includes lyme patients, physicians, researchers, county health departments, and over 100 lyme support groups nationwide. we strive to give our readers up-to-date information on lyme disease prevention, diagnosis, and treatment, and a source for support and practical advice on living with lyme disease. articles for the ldu should be approximately 900 to 1200 words and should address lyme disease issues in non-scientific language. to submit your article, mail to: lyme disease update p.o. box 15711-0711 evansville, in 47716 or fax to: 812-471-1990 one year subscriptions to the lyme disease update are $19 ($24 outside the us). mail your subscription requests to the above address, or call 812-471-1990 for more information. iii. ***** news from the wires ****** sender: jonathan lord <jml4s@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu> atlanta (upi) -- a resurgence of infectious diseases blamed on newly emerging viruses and bacteria pose a major challenge for the nation's health care system, federal health officials said thursday. the centers for disease control and prevention, reporting its latest findings in an investigation of contaminated hamburger meat that sickened hundreds in 4 states and killed at least four, said it will put renewed emphasis on battling infectious diseases. part of that emphasis includes a new series titled "emerging infectious diseases" to be featured in the cdc's morbidity & mortality weekly report, which has a wide circulation in the health community. the issue also will top the agenda of a two-day meeting of scientific counselors to update the cdc's draft plan for dealing with the growing threat of infectious ailments. "this is an issue that has been coming and we do have a responsibility to deal with it," said dr. ruth berkelman, deputy director of the cdc's national center for infectious diseases. there were more cases of malaria in the u.s. in 1992 than in any year since the 1960s, and latin america is experiencing a cholera epidemic, the first in this century, she said. resistance of disease-causing agents to antibiotics is also a problem. "we are seeing much more antibiotic resistance than we have in the past" berkleman said. she said even common ear infections frequently seen in children are becoming resistant to antibiotic treatment. "despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon be eliminated as a public health problem, infectious diseases remain the major cause of death worldwide and a leading cause of illness and death in the united states," the cdc said. it cited the emergence since the 1970s of a "myriad" of newly identified pathogens and syndromes, such as escherichia coli o157:h7, a deadly bacterial infection; the hepatitis c virus; hiv, the virus that causes aids; legionnaires disease; lyme disease; and toxic shock syndrome. "the incidences of many diseases widely presumed to be under control, such as cholera, malaria and tuberculosis, have increased in many areas," the cdc said. it said efforts at control and prevention have been undermined by drug resistance. source: wall street journal reference: 04/15/93, pb1 headline: lyme-disease ruling raises liability issues the tick that causes lyme disease may have found a new way to cause damage: legal liability. a federal judge's decision holding a property owner liable for not doing enough to protect workers from lyme disease is getting as much attention as the latest medical study on the disease, a flu-like illness that can cause severe physical and mental disabilities and in rare instances death. the decision last week has put property owners on notice that they may have to do more than protect themselves from the ticks-they also may have to protect themselves from litigation if someone becomes infected while on the property. the decision by u.s. district judge robert j. ward in new york came after a week-long trial in a case involving four track workers for the long island railroad. judge ward found that the workers contracted the disease after they were bitten by ticks while on the job. he ordered the new york state-owned commuter line to pay the workers more than $560,000 to compensate for pain and suffering, in addition to medical expenses and lost wages. summer camps, schools, companies with facilities in rural or semirural areas, and homeowners who rent to vacationers are among the groups that need to be worried about this ruling, says stephen l. kass, an attorney at new york law firm berle, kass & case, who wrote a legal article three years ago warning property owners of the potential liability. even a family that invites friends over for a backyard barbecue might be potentially liable. lawsuits for insect bites, while rare, aren't unheard-of. a summer vacationer in southampton, n.y., last year sued the owner of the home she rented, claiming that a tick on the property gave her rocky mountain spotted fever. in 1988, also on long island, a jury ordered an outdoor restaurant to pay more than $3 million to a patron who was stung by a bee, causing an allergic reaction and permanent quadriplegia. the judge later threw out the award, citing no evidence that a beehive was near the restaurant. but lawyers say that the attention to lyme disease throughout the country -- it's most prevalent in new england, the middle atlantic states, wisconsin, minnesota and the northwest -- may make this particular insect bite a particularly litigious one. the illness already has proved to be a source of controversy in the courtroom over such issues as the type of medical care insurers will cover and medical malpractice claims against doctors for not diagnosing the disease. lawyers say worker's-compensation claims related to lyme disease have become common in some states in recent years. payments in worker's-compensation cases, however, are limited to medical costs and lost earnings. the case before judge ward dealt with a potentially much more lucrative avenue for damages, because it involved the question of negligence. unlike the worker's compensation process, the law governing injuries to rail workers allows for a finding of negligence and, as a result, for additional payments for pain and suffering. property owners and lawyers say that negligence claims can be made in many other situations where people are exposed to the ticks that carry the ira m. maurer, a partner at new york law firm elkind, flynn & maurer, who represented the rail workers, says the decision will help to establish "the duty of all sorts of property owners to protect against lyme disease." lawyers caution that despite judge ward's decision, winning a lawsuit for damages caused by lyme disease may prove difficult. for one thing, victims have to demonstrate that they have pinned down when and where they got the tick bite. judge ward found that the plaintiffs in the railroad case got lyme disease while working on property owned by the railroad, even though none of the men remembered being bitten. the workers, who weren't outdoorsmen likely to be exposed elsewhere to the insects, said they saw ticks in the high grass that surrounded some work sites. a spokeswoman for the railroad says that there was no proof that the four men were bitten while on the job and that the railroad is considering an appeal. the railroad also disputes judge ward's finding that it didn't do enough to protect employees. the spokeswoman says the railroad provides track workers with insect repellent and special pants to protect against bug bites. debate in the scientific community over lyme disease could open up some legal defenses for property owners, such as questioning whether a victim actually has the disease rather than some other illness. earlier this week, the journal of the american medical association reported that doctors overly diagnose patients as having lyme disease. and damages awarded to a victim also might be influenced by medical disputes over the degree of harm that lyme disease causes. because of health and safety concerns, some groups and companies already take special measures to protect against lyme disease. last year, at its headquarters in franklin lakes, n.j., becton, dickinson & co. began using damminix, a pesticide made by ecohealth inc. of boston that is designed to kill ticks carrying the disease. the medical- supply company's headquarters include a 120-acre park, and the company was worried that employees who walk on its trails for recreation might get infected. ruth lister, a spokeswoman for the american camping association in indianapolis, says that many youth camps accredited by her organization also have begun to check children for ticks. and carole katz, a member of the board of the fire island pines property owners association, says her group spends $30,000 each year to treat their 100-acre site off the coast of new york with the tick-killing title: urinary dysfunction in lyme disease. authors: chancellor mb; mcginnis de; shenot pj; kiilholma p; hirsch ih, department of urology, jefferson medical college, thomas jefferson university, philadelphia, pennsylvania. reference: j urol 1993 jan; 149 (1): 26-30 lyme disease, which is caused by the spirochete borrelia burgdorferi, is associated with a variety of neurological sequelae. we describe 7 patients with neuro-borreliosis who also had lower urinary tract dysfunction. urodynamic evaluation revealed detrusor hyperreflexia in 5 patients and detrusor areflexia in 2. detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia was not noted on electromyography in any patient. we observed that the urinary tract may be involved in 2 respects in the course of lyme disease: 1) voiding dysfunction may be part of neuro-borreliosis and 2) the spirochete may directly invade the urinary tract. in 1 patient bladder infection by the lyme spirochete was documented on biopsy. neurological and urological symptoms in all patients were slow to resolve and convalescence was protracted. relapses of active lyme disease and residual neurological deficits were common. urologists practicing in areas endemic for lyme disease need to be aware of b. burgdorferi infection in the differential diagnosis of neurogenic bladder dysfunction. conservative bladder management including clean intermittent catheterization guided by urodynamic evaluation is recommended. iv. ***** questions 'n' answers ***** note: if you have a response to this question, please forward it to the sender: terry morse <morset@ccmail.orst.edu> when i visited my sister on long island, ny, i was cautioned to avoid the compost heap in her back yard, as she thinks this is where she became a friend of mine here in oregon who has a compost heap would like me to back that claim up with documentation. do lyme-carrying ticks hang out in compost heaps? thank you. v. ***** op-ed section ***** this section is open to all subscribers who would like to express an opinion. vi. ***** jargon index ***** bb - borrelia burgdorferi - the scientific name for the ld bacterium. cdc - centers for disease control - federal agency in charge of tracking diseases and programs to prevent them. cns - central nervous system. elisa - enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays - common antibody test em - erythema migrans - the name of the "bull's eye" rash that appears in ~60% of the patients early in the infection. ifa - indirect fluorescent antibody - common antibody test. ld - common abbreviation for lyme disease. nih - national institutes of health - federal agency that conducts medical research and issues grants to research interests. pcr - polymerase chain reaction - a new test that detects the dna sequence of the microbe in question. currently being tested for use in detecting ld, tb, and aids. spirochete - the ld bacterium. it's given this name due to it's spiral western blot - a more precise antibody test. vii. ***** how to subscribe, contribute and get back issues ***** subscriptions: anyone with an internet address may subscribe. send a memo to listserv@lehigh.edu in the body, type: subscribe lymenet-l <your real name> fax subscriptions are also available. send a single page fax to 215-974-6410 for further information. deletions: send a memo to listserv@lehigh.edu in the body, type: unsubscribe lymenet-l contributions: send all contributions to lymenet-l@lehigh.edu or fax them to 215-974-6410. all are encouraged to submit questions, news items, announcements, and back issues: send a memo to listserv@lehigh.edu in the body, type: get lymenet-l/newsletters x-yy (where x=vol # and yy=issue #) example: get lymenet-l/newsletters 1-01 (will get vol#1, issue#01) lymenet - the internet lyme disease information source editor-in-chief: marc c. gabriel <mcg2@lehigh.edu> fax: 215-974-6410 contributing editors: carl brenner <brenner@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> john setel o'donnell <jod@equator.com> advisors: carol-jane stolow, director william s. stolow, president the lyme disease network of new jersey (908-390-5027) chief proofreader: ed mackey <elm4@lehigh.edu> when comments are presented with an attribution, they do not necessarily represent the opinions/analyses of the editor. this newsletter may be reproduced and/or posted on bulletin boards freely as long as it is not modified or abridged in any way. send all bug reports to mcg2@lehigh.edu. 
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<instance id="sci.med59348">
<answer instance="sci.med59348" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can men get yeast infections? spread them? what kind of symptoms? my ent doctor told me that it is not uncommon for the wife to get a vaginal yeast infection after the husband takes antibiotics. in fact this recently happened to my wife. explanation is that the antibiotics kill the yeast's competition, they then thrive and increased yeast around the penis spread the infection during intercourse. i was on ceclor for 30 days, then my wife got the yeast. jay keller badboy@netcom.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59350">
<answer instance="sci.med59350" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 could anyone give me information on umbilical hernias. the patient is over weight and has a protruding hernia. surgery may be risky due to the obesity. what other remedies could i try? thanx in advance dr. gary taylor 
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<instance id="sci.med59351">
<answer instance="sci.med59351" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a woman once told me her doctor told her that i could catch, asymptomatically, her yeast infection from her, then give it back to her, causing a relapse. probably bogus, but if not, it's another reason to use latex... 
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<instance id="sci.med59353">
<answer instance="sci.med59353" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hi all, ive applied for the class of 93 at quite a number of schools (20) and have gotten 13 rejects, 4 interviews and 3 no responses. three possible results after interview: 1) rejection outright 2) acceptance outright 3) the infamous 'wait list'... if you are on a 'wait list', your entrance into medical school is dependent upon some other applicant withdrawing their acceptance. this can happen as late as day -1 of starting any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters? according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march. whats going on... i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day. you can always call the admissions office. the secretaries should have some idea of when a decision might be made on your application. be calm, respectful, and friendly; secretaries have more power than you might realize, and you never know- could be the dean of admissions answering the phone. also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in, i if you don't get in this year, sit down and re-evaluate yourself: your motives, desires, and goals that are directing you into medicine; your academic and extracurricular accomplishments. make a decision about whether you *really* want to be a medical doctor. i had classmates who dropped out in the first semester of med school because they found it was not what they wanted to do; i have friends who applied four years in a row before they were accepted. medicine as a career is a choice you must make for yourself; don't be pushed into it because of your parents/family/significant if you still want to be a medical doctor, determine how you can improve your application. a letter of recommendation from a professor who knows you well and can give an honest positive recommendation is far better than one from a 'big-shot' famous professor who only vaguely remembers your face. also, don't be afraid to ask these people if they can give you an honest and positive recommendation; give them a chance to say 'no, sorry' instead of the medical school saying 'no, sorry'. i have turned down writing recommendations for some students because i did not know them well enough to make any meaningful comments, and some because i honestly could not recommend them at that point. rewrite your personal statement; take it by an english professor or some other friendly person with skill and experience in writing and proof-reading and get their criticism, both about what you are saying as well as how you say it. review your academic accomplishments. if your grades are poor in some area, don't be afraid to spend some time in further coursework. evidence of determined committment will help here. if you filled your pre-medicine curriculum with gut courses, it usually shows. look at your extracurricular involvements. participating in local philanthropic or service organizations is a plus; substantial leadership roles in an organization help also. beware of 'resume padding'; such things are not difficult to spot and weed out. overall, a clear conception of where you wish to head and why you want to get there, combined with an honest self-appraisal of skills and aptitude, will be the best path to take in applying to any program, medical or what-have-you. good luck with the process -- as tom petty says, 'the waiting is the hardest part', at least emotionally. :) bob schmieg 
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<instance id="sci.med59355">
<answer instance="sci.med59355" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a "licensed herbologist and iridologist" what are your opinions? how much can you tell about a person's health by looking into their eyes? 
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<instance id="sci.med59356">
<answer instance="sci.med59356" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i like to know how effective prohibit is to prevent spiral meningitis for a child who is five years old. i heard it's from canada. what sort of side effects , etc. chul-hee cho 
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<instance id="sci.med59357">
<answer instance="sci.med59357" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i think you must have the same hygiene teacher i had in 1955. there is a story about the civil war about a soldier who was shot in the groin. the bullet, after passing through one of his testes, then entered the abdomen of a young woman standing nearby. later, when she (a young woman of unimpeachible virtue) was shown to be pregnant; the soldier did the honorable thing of marrying her. according to this story, they lived happily ever after. perhaps the most famous of mr. rau's classes was the time he would come into class brandishing an aluminum turning mandrel (tapering from about 3/8" to 1/2" over a 10 inch length). he would say, "boys, do you know what this is? it's a medical instrument called a 'cock reamer' and it's used to unclog your penis when you have vd. they just ram it up there without an anesthetic!" needless to say this had a chilling effect. i didn't have lascivious thoughts for at least an hour. later in life as i perused medical instrument catelogs and saw the slender flexible urethral sounds that are actually used, i could not escape thinking that i might one day see, "reamer, cock (style of rau) ." 
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<instance id="sci.med59358">
<answer instance="sci.med59358" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 speaking of educational systems, i recently had a colleague tell me that the reason one of our fifth grade students is so physically developed is because she was sexually abused as a younger child. this, she went on to say, kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty. 
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<instance id="sci.med59359">
<answer instance="sci.med59359" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 kw> if you don't like additives, then for godsake, kw> get off the net and learn to cook from scratch. sheesh. mary allison exclaims: ma> excuse me!!!!!!!!!!!! ma> why can't people learn to cook from scratch *on* the net. ma> i've gotten lots of recipes off the net that don't use additives. because one simply _can't_ cook on the net, nor can one cook while on the net. cooking is best done in a kitchen, on a stove. (gotcha! *grin*) (i said this out of general frustration at people (not anyone in particular) who seem to expect packaged food to conform to their tastes. in other words, if packaged foods are not to your liking, prepare foods that are.) ma> if you like additives then get off the net and go to your local ma> supermarket, buy lots of packaged foods, and you get off the net!! i don't have strong feelings about additives, as long as i can't taste 'em. (as for the rest of your reply to me, i am sorry it it seemed as if i was picking on you. i wasn't trying to do so. please accept my apologies.) ~ kiran 
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<instance id="sci.med59360">
<answer instance="sci.med59360" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hi. does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary? also, in the advacned cases, what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking? 
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<instance id="sci.med59361">
<answer instance="sci.med59361" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 :hello, :i heard that a certain disease (toxoplasmosys?) is transmitted by cats which :can harm the unborn fetus. does anybody know about it? is it a problem to :have a cat in the same apartment? having the cat around is not a problem, but the pregnant woman should not change the litter box. toxoplasmosis can be transmitted from the stool of some cats. = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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<instance id="sci.med59362">
<answer instance="sci.med59362" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i am looking for some clarification on a subject that i am trying to find some information on. how is hsv-2 (herpes) transmitted? i currently know that it can be transmitted during inflammation but, what i am looking for is if it can be transmitted during in other periods. also, i want to know if you can be accurately tested for it while you are not showing symtoms? if you can help i would greatly appreciate it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59363">
<answer instance="sci.med59363" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 msg is common in many food we eat, including chinese (though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them). i've noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants, i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards. this happens to many of my friends and relatives too. and, heh, we eat chinese food all the time at home :) (but we don't use msg when we're cooking for ourselves) heck, i seem to feel like that *every* time i eat out. including in the cafeteria at work. about half the time, the headache intensifies until nothing will make it go away except throwing up. ick. as you might imagine, i don't eat out a lot. i guess my tolerance for food additives has plummeted since i switched to eating mostly steamed veggies. they're easy to fix, that's all. i won't even mention what happened the last time i ate corned beef. (oops. too late.) the graphics bbs 908/469-0049 "it's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" internet: lim@graphics.rent.com (julie lim) uucp: rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!lim 
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<instance id="sci.med59364">
<answer instance="sci.med59364" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : a woman once told me her doctor told her that i : could catch, asymptomatically, her yeast infection : from her, then give it back to her, causing : a relapse. : probably bogus, but if not, it's another reason to use : latex... : steve it isn't bogus. i had chronic vaginal yeast infections that would go away with cream but reappear in about 2 weeks. i had been on 3 rounds of antibiotics for a resistant sinus infection and my husband had been on amoxicillin also for a sinus infection. after six months of this, i went to a gynecologist who had me culture my husband seminal fluid. after 7 days incubation he had quite a bit of yeast growth (it was confirmed by the lab). a round of nizerol for him cleared both of us. andrea kwiatkowski 
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<instance id="sci.med59366">
<answer instance="sci.med59366" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 hi. does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary? nasopharyngeal cancer is (roughly, don't have references at hand) 20-30 times more prevalent in chinese than caucasians, particularly those chinese from southern china. one province (or region) has an extraordinary excess. the chinese and others have done major studies. some association with the epstein-barr virus has been noted. also, in the advacned cases, what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking? palliative radiotherapy is used. 
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<instance id="sci.med59369">
<answer instance="sci.med59369" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the private scietific & industrial firm "intercom 2000" can supply you with the transplantants that could be delivered according to your order. selection and preparation of the materials is carried out by the qualified personnel having 20-year experience in this sphere. we provide: - immunological selection of tissues ( on the special request); - aids, syphilis & other infection diseases tests; - bio-chemical tests. we guarantee deliverance of our products within temperature habital providing their prime condition. o.yarosha st. 39 apart. 49 kharkov, ukraine. tel. +7 (057)-2-323177 fax +7 (057)-2-431651, 231192 e-mail: tuser%azbuka.kharkov.ua@relay.ussr.eu.net 
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<instance id="sci.med59374">
<answer instance="sci.med59374" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 my (then) wife used to get recurrent yeast infections. one day, her doctor sent her home with medication for her and a pill for me. i took the pill, upon her insistence, and was very relieved the next day when i looked it up in the pdr. it only rarely causes testicular atrophy... anyway, men apparently do get yeast infections. 
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<instance id="sci.med59375">
<answer instance="sci.med59375" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 recently i've come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition. in particular, dr. bernard jenssen in his book "colon cleansing for health and longevity" -- the title actually escapes me, but it is very similar to that -- claims that regular self-administered colonics, along with certain orally ingested "debris-loosening agents", boosts the immune system to a significant degree. he also plugs a unique appliance called the "colema board", which facilitates the self-administration of colonics. it sells for over $100 from a california-based company. he also plugs vitra-tox products as his chemical agents of choice: these include volcanic ash, supposedly for its electrical charge, and psyllium powder, for its if anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory, its particulars, or the colema board and related products, i'd be very interested to hear about research and personal experience. this article is crossposted to alt.magick as the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through a "ritual" system of purification. -- eli ![wiesel@cs.yale.edu] elisha wiesel, davenport college '94 yale university! ![wiesel@minerva.cis.yale.edu] (203) 436-1338<-school (212) 371-2756<-home! 
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<instance id="sci.med59377">
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 i heard that a certain disease (toxoplasmosys?) is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus. does anybody know about it? is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment? the disease you are talking about is toxoplasmosis. it is a protozoan that lives and multiplies within cells. in cats, the protozoan multiplies in the intestinal cells and eggs are shed in the cat's feces. the protozoa can cross the placenta to infect the fetus. the disease may be asymptomatic after the baby is born, or it may be very severe. toxo may cause blindness and mental retardation. having a cat in the same apartment should not be a problem; however, pregnant women should not scoop or change the cat's litterbox. in addition, whoever does empty the litterbox should thoroughly wash his/her hands before handling anything else, especially food. information came from _the merck manual, 15th ed._ i hope this information is helpful to you. picl25@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59378">
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 this request goes out to medical students who have done or are planning to sit the usmle (or national boards) part 1. my wife is sitting this examination in early june this year and would like to have a look at some old national boards, part 1 questions found in the following books. these books are currently out of print. the books are: (1) retired nbme basic medical science test items, nbme; published by nbme in 1991 (2) self-test in the part 1 basic medical sciences, nbme; published by nbme in 1989 i would appreciate if anyone who has these books is willing to loan it to her for a couple of days. obviously, i would reimburse for you all postage and related charges. failing that it would be beneficial if anyone could point to any library in the ny, nj or pa area that may have these books. please respond by e-mail since i do not read this newsgroup thanks in advance. e-mail: daniel@learning.siemens.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59380">
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 unless i plan on getting sick - i won't eat the stuff without my seldane. and did i ever learn to read labels. - it might not please a medical researcher - but it pleased my own personal physician enough for him to give me allergy medicine -allergy medicine, huh? is this just to get rid of the resultant migraine or whatever, or does it actually suppress allergic reactions? (i.e. like an antihistamine does?) as far as doctors over here are concerned, if you slip up and eat something you're allergic to (even if they won't test you to tell you what to avoid) then tough; if a _cheap_ medicine will alleviate your symptoms, then fine, otherwise you just suffer. one doctor did prescribe me imigran (costs the nhs #48 for 6 tablets) after having to rehydrate me because i'd been throwing up for four solid days and couldn't even drink water - but i got taken off it again when i moved and had to change doctors. reasoning: they did not know what the side-effects were because it was new. ok, fine - but it has passed the safety tests to get on the prescription list, and anyway i was prepared to take the risk to have quality of life now. the only alternatives i have is to get it prescribed privately, which i cannot afford, or to pay a private allergy specialist to test me and tell me what to avoid. i am fairly certain i am allergic to more than one chemical additive, as a lot of things i can't eat have nothing in common except things i know are safe, so testing myself isn't really an option; there are too many permutations. i'm not saying i never consume anything with msg. i've noticed that i have a certain tolerance level - like a (small) bag of bbq chips once a month or so it not a problem - but that same bag of chips will bother me if i also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch at one of the chinese restaurants the day before. yes, i've noticed that - and i can work it up by eating just under the tolerance level fairly regularly. if i don't eat anything except home cooking for a month or so i lose it and have to work it up from scratch... a bad experience. now i know what the early-warning symptoms are, though, i can usually tell whether i am allergic to food before i've eaten too much of it... usually... 
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<instance id="sci.med59381">
<answer instance="sci.med59381" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hello, a friend is under going kemotherapy(sp?) for breast cancer. i'm trying to learn what i can about it. any info would be appreciated. 
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<instance id="sci.med59382">
<answer instance="sci.med59382" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 =>greg:flame definitely intended here. bill was making fun of the misspelling. =>go look up the word "krill." also, the correct spelling is kirlian. it =>involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the =>subject to a high-voltage source, not of some "aura." it works equally well =>with inanimate objects. =true.. but what about showing the missing part of a leaf? is this ="corona discharge"? yup. the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates, and taking a kirlian photograph of it. you then cut off part of the leaf, put the top plate back on, and take another kirlian photograph. you see pretty much the same image in both cases. turns out the effect isn't nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs. seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity. surprise, surprise! carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59383">
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 isn't there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non-invasive use of ultra-sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he/she undergoes treatment? i'm sure i've read about it somewhere. if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment. a couple of weeks ago i visited a hospital here in stockholm and saw big signs showing the way to the "kidney stone chrusher" ... i saw this a few years ago on "tomorrow's world" (low-brow bbc technology news program). the patient is lowered into a bath of de-ionized water and carefully positioned. high intensity pressure waves are generated by an electric spark in the water (you don't get electrocuted because de-ionised water does not conduct). these waves are focused on the kidneys by a parabolic reflector and cause the stone to break up. this is completely painless. of course, you then have to get these little bits of gravel through the urethra. ouch! paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions 
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<instance id="sci.med59385">
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 : i've seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and : demented during hospital stays. in the examples i've seen, drugs were : definitely involved. : my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the : hospital. he was fifty-three at the time, and he was on 21 separate : medications. the family protested, but the doctors were adamant, telling : us that none of the drugs interact. they even took the attitude that, if : he was disoriented, they should put him on something else as well! with : the help of an md friend of the family, we had all his medication : discontinued. he had a seizure that night, and was put back on one drug. : two days later, he was his old self again. i guess there aren't many : medical texts that address the subject of 21-way interactions. i saw the same thing happen to my father, and i can more or less validate your take on hospitals. it seems to me that medical science understands precious little about taking care of the human machine. drugs are given as a response to symptoms (and i guess that makes sense since all the studies that validate the effectiveness of those drugs are based on a narrow assessment of the degree of particular symptoms). but there seems to be very little appreciation for the well-being of a person outside of the numbers that appear on a test. i watched my dad wither away and lose huge amounts of body fat and muscles tissue while in the hospital. there is something a little crazy about a system in which there is more attention paid to giving you every latest drug available than there is attention paid to whether you have had enough to eat to prevent loss of muscle tissue. it is really, really bizarre. will estes internet: westes@netcom.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59388">
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 dear netters: maybe one of you can explain this. from time to time i experience a strange kind of feeling (i have all kinds of weird feelings) which can be best described as the feeling of "losing gravity", like that one experiences in a descending elevator. needless to say, it is not enjoyable. it sometimes comes with shortness of breath and extreme fatigue. it lasts from a few minutes to an hour and when it lasts that long, it makes me sweatening. initially i called it "palpitation (spelling?)" until i later learnt that the terminology has been reserved for the self-awareness of heart beats. so, is there a specific term for this feeling, or am i a stragne person? i always believe i am unique. 
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<instance id="sci.med59389">
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 re: serious discussion about drugs vs. "where can i get a good bong, man?" why not have the group moderated? that would eliminate some of the idiots. 
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<instance id="sci.med59392">
<answer instance="sci.med59392" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm a fellow applicant and my situation is not too much better. i applied to about 20 schools, got two interviews, got one offer, and am waiting to hear from the other school. let me be honest about my experiences and impressions about the medical school admissions process. numbers (gpa, mcats) are not everything, but they are probably more important than anything else. in fact, some schools screen out applicants based on these numbers and never even look at your other qualities. of course, when this happens, don't expect a refund on your $50 application fee. but, the fact that you got four interviews tells me that you have the numbers and are very well qualified academically. you mentioned one response, was it an acceptance, denial, or wait-list? if i assume the worst, that it was a denial, then you still have a great probability of acceptance somewhere. how did your interviews go? as for how long you have to wait, i've called a few schools who never contacted me for anything. many of them told me that the interview season for them was over and that if i haven't heard by now, i can assume a denial. many rejection letters are not sent out until may or as late as june. but some schools are still interviewing. i really don't think you should worry. don't become fixated on the mailbox, go out, have fun, be very proud of yourself. what do people think of the medical school admissions process? i had a very mediocre gpa, but high mcat scores, and i have been working as a software engineer for two years. i majored in computer science at stanford. still, i think the profile of the person who has the best chance of getting admitted is something like this: very important gpa: 3.5 or better mcat: top 15% in all subject medium importance writing/speaking ability motivation for going into medicine less important college or university work experience anything else you want them to know anyway, you are in good shape. i think admissions committees are bound in many ways by the numbers, but would like very much to understand each person as an individual. sometimes thats just not practical. but getting four interviews is an indicator that you have the numbers. hopefully, you were able to impress them with your character. good luck, 
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<instance id="sci.med59393">
<answer instance="sci.med59393" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : isn't there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving : a non-invasive use of ultra-sound where the patient is lowered : into some sort of liquid when he/she undergoes treatment? i'm sure : i've read about it somewhere. if i remember it correctly it is a : painless and effective treatment. the use of shock waves (not ultrasound) to break up stones has been around for a few years. depending on the type of machine, and intensity of the shock waves, it is usually uncomfortable enough to require something... the high-power machines cause enough pain to require general or regional anesthesia. afterwards, it feels like someone slugged you pretty good! 
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<instance id="sci.med59395">
<answer instance="sci.med59395" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 oxygen(just like it does in the vagina). as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l. acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections, i'm really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out. i've mentioned this study a couple of times now: ingestion of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus as prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis, annals of internal medicine, 3/1/92 116(5):353-7. do you have a problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules of lactobacillus (even though it had positive results)? the study was a crossover trial of daily ingestion of 8 ounces of yogurt. there was a marked decrease in infections while women were ingesting the yogurt. problems with the study included very small numbers (33 patients enrolled) and many protocol violations (only 21 patients were analyzed). still, the difference in rates of infection between the two groups was so large that the study remains fairly david rind david, this study looks like a good one. gordon rubenfeld did a medline search and also sent me the same reference through e-mail. since commercial yogurt does not always have a good lactobacillus a. or bulgaricus culture, a negative finding would not have been too informative. this is often the reason why lactobacillus acidophilus tablets are recommended rather than yogurt. i guess the next question is why would this introduction of "good" bacteria back into the gut decrease the incidence of vaginal candida blooms if the anus was not serving as a candida reservoir(a fact that gordon r. vehementy denys)? i see two possible theories. one, the l. acidophilus, which is a facultatively anaerobic bacterium, could make it through the gut and colonize the rectal area to overgrow the candida. this would not explain the reoccurance of candida blooms in the vagina after the yogurt ingestion was stopped though. the other is that the additional bacteria in the intestinal tract remove most of the glucose from the feces and candida looses it's major food source. getting lactobacillus acidophilus to colonize the vaginal tract(where it is normally found) would have a much better effect on the recurrance of vaginal yeast blooms though. an acetic acid, lactobacillus acidophilus douche has been used to get this effect but i've not seen any such treatment reported in the medical literature. this would be an example of physicians conducting their own clinical trials to try to come up with treatments that help their patients. when this is done in private practice, the results are rarely, if ever published. it was the hallmark of medicine until the modern age emerged with clinical trials. it really raises a big question. does the medical profession cast out the adventerous few who try new treatments to help patients or does it look the other way. this particular issue is really a very simple one since no real dangerous therapy is involved(even the anti-fungals are not all that dangerous). but there are some areas(like edta chelation therapy), where the fire is pretty hot and somebody could get burned. it's really tough. do i follow only well established protocols and then give up if they don't work that well or do it try something that looks like it will work but hasn't been proven to work yet? my stand is to consider other treatment possibilities, especially if they involve little or no risk to the patient. getting good bacteria back into the gut after antibiotic treatment is one treatment possibility. the other is getting l. acidophilus into the vaginal tract of a woman who is having a problem with recurring yeast infections. marty b. 
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<instance id="sci.med59396">
<answer instance="sci.med59396" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 =>greg:flame definitely intended here. bill was making fun of the misspelling. =>go look up the word "krill." also, the correct spelling is kirlian. it =>involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the =>subject to a high-voltage source, not of some "aura." it works equally well =>with inanimate objects. =true.. but what about showing the missing part of a leaf? is this ="corona discharge"? yup. the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates, and taking a kirlian photograph of it. you then cut off part of the leaf, put the top plate back on, and take another kirlian photograph. you see pretty much the same image in both cases. turns out the effect isn't nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs. seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity. surprise, surprise! this is true, but it's not quite the whole story. there were actually some people who were more careful in their methodology who also replicated the 'phantom leaf effect.' one of the most influential critics of kirlian electrophotography is a theosophist (and threfore presumably willing to entertain the hypothesis of scientific evidence for a human aura, electromagnetic or otherwise), professor of electrical engineering at london's city university, and a past president of the society for psychic research named a. j. ellison. after years of studying the method and the claims, ellison came to the conclusion that the photographic images are what we calls 'lichtenberg figures,' an effect of intermittent ionization of the air around the object. it's a bit more complicated than 'not wiping off the plates,' but it comes down to the same thing in the end, kirlian electrophotography has much more limited value (if any) than was previously widely thought. electrical and magnetic fields generated by the body are much too small to be of much use diagnostically without very elaborate equipment and usually also tracer chemicals. kind regards, | todd i. stark stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com | | digital equipment corporation (215) 542-3573 | | philadelphia, pa. usa | | "(a word is) the skin of a living thought" oliver wendell holmes, jr. | 
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<instance id="sci.med59398">
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 sorry. my friend's address who wants the faq and info is jjsulliv@colby.edu sorry about that folks. jody rebecca colby college majors: history/sociology class o' '94 e-mail: jrgould@colby.edu samuel@paul.rutgers.edu fantasy, music, colors, and animals will lead this society out of oppression. 
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<instance id="sci.med59400">
<answer instance="sci.med59400" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 % mail newsserv@kiae.su dear ladies and gentlemen! we should be grateful for any information about address and (or) e-mail address of loma-linda hospital (approximate position: usa, california, near vaimor town, 60 miles from los-angelos). a patient needs consultation in this clinics before operation. with respect, igor v. sidelnikov this is also being replied to via e-mail. i dialed my university librarian, and he looked it up: loma linda university medical center loma linda, ca 92350 i don't know an internet address for them, but they can be reached by telephone at (714) 824-4300. good luck. | daniel r. field, aka infospunj | "never believe any experiment until | | dfield@oboe.calpoly.edu | it has been confirmed by theory." | | biochemistry, biotechnology | -arthur eddington | | california polytechnic state u | tongue-in-cheek or foot-in-mouth? | 
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<instance id="sci.med59401">
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 need info on circumcision, medical cons and pros i need information on the medical (including emotional :-) pros and cons of circumcision (at birth). i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages. a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper, and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision, the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer. please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group. i will summarize to the net. i'm very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision of newborn males on the population. since your friend is not a man, she money probably has a lot to do with keeping the practice of routine circumcision alive... it's another opporitunity to charge a few hundred extra bucks for a completely unnecessary procedure, the rationale for which until recently has been accepted without question by most parents of newborns. one could also imagine that complications arising from circumcision (infections, sloppy jobs, etc) are far more common than the remote chance of penile cancer it is purported to prevent. can't imagine what it's like to have a penis, much less a foreskin. i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male, then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance... the penile cancer thing has been *completely* debunked...she must be going to school on a south pacific island. tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles. i remember at least 1 on an old jewish man (cut at birth) who developed penile cancer....i mean, if the cancer risk was that great, the europe who have been circumcising like crazy, too. teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue: a little proper hygiene goes a long way - americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it: that's just way too much like mastubation. so you have surgical intervention that is basically peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana-champaign 
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<instance id="sci.med59403">
<answer instance="sci.med59403" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 all right, listen up.... what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water? especially if the chlorination isn't up to par? i've heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on? but the sperm would be very diluted in a "x" gallon swimming pool * j e n n i f e r s c h e i b e r * email: scheiber@sage.cc.purdue.edu school of nursing - purdue university 
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<instance id="sci.med59404">
<answer instance="sci.med59404" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 =flame on =reading through the posts about kirlian (whatever spelling) =photography i couldn't help but being slightly disgusted by the =narrow-minded, "i know it all", "i don't believe what i can't see or =measure" attitude of many people out there. where have you seen that attitude? =i am neither a real believer, nor a disbeliever when it comes to =so-called "paranormal" stuff; but as far as i'm concerned, it is just =as likely as the existence of, for instance, a god, which seems to be =quite accepted in our societies - without any scientific basis. =i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to =something, anything, simply because it doesn't fit your current frame =of reference. history shows that many great people, great scientists, =were people who kept an open mind - and were ridiculed by sceptics. fine, jackass. suppose you point out even one aspect of kirlian photography that's not explained by a corona discharge. carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59406">
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 can anyone out there tell me the difference between a "persistent" disease and a "chronic" one? for example, persistent hepatitis vs chronic 
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<instance id="sci.med59407">
<answer instance="sci.med59407" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i heard a short blurb on the news yesterday about an herb called feverfew (?) that some say is good for preventing migraines. i think the news said there were two double-blind studies that found this effective. does anyone know about these studies? or have experience with feverfew? i'm skeptical, but open to trying it if i can find out more about this. what is feverfew, and how much would you take to prevent migraines (if this is a good idea, that is)? are there any known risks or side effects of feverfew? thanks in advance for any info! 
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<instance id="sci.med59409">
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 harvested to order? 
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<instance id="sci.med59410">
<answer instance="sci.med59410" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 colonics were a health fad of the 19th century, which persists to this day. except for certain medical conditions, there is no reason to do this. certainly no normal person should do this. frequent use of enemas can lead to a condition in which a person is unable to have normal bowel passage, essentially a person becomes addicted to enemas. as i understand it, this is a very unpleasant condition, and it would be best to avoid it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59411">
<answer instance="sci.med59411" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 then there are always osteopathy colleges.... 
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<instance id="sci.med59412">
<answer instance="sci.med59412" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 in article ?????? i write: when i was a school boy, my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse. somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation. was my biology teacher misinforming us, or do such incidents actually ohboy. here we go again. and one wonders why the american education system is in such abysmal shape? actually, this was a school in england. this same biology teacher also told me that the reason that stars twinkle is that the small spot of light on the retina sometimes falls between the light recepive cells. so his info was suspect from the start. 
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<instance id="sci.med59413">
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 : hi all, : would anyone out there in 'net-land' happen to have an : authentic, sure-fire way of making this great sauce that : is used to adorn gyro's and souvlaki? : thanks, i have a receipe at home that was posted to me by one of our fellow netters about a month ago. i am recalling this from memory but i think i'm fairly close (by the way it was great!) 1 pint of plain yogurt 1/2 med. sized cucumber finely shredded 3 cloves of garlic (more or less by taste) 1/4 tsp dill weed the yogurt is dumped into a strainer lined with a coffee filter and allowed to drain at least 2 hours (you can adjust the consistancy of the sauce by increasing this time up to 24 hours) the shredded cuc is drained the same way mix it all together and let it steep for at least 2 hours (it's better the next day) and enjoy! 
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<instance id="sci.med59414">
<answer instance="sci.med59414" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 greg:flame definitely intended here. bill was making fun of the misspelling. go look up the word "krill." also, the correct spelling is kirlian. it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high-voltage source, not of some "aura." it works equally well with inanimate objects. true.. but what about showing the missing part of a leaf? is this "corona discharge"? i think i can explain the "missing part of a leaf" story. i have actually seen a reproduction of that particular kirlian photograph, in a book compiled by people who were enthusiasts of kirlian photography. "that particular photograph" ... ? that's right, the effect has been observed only once. even the writers of the book were inclined to disbelieve in it. i conjecture that the maker of that photograph began by placing a whole leaf between two plates and taking its kirlian photo. for his next experiment, he cut the leaf in half, put one half down between the same two plates, and took another k. p. the "missing half" effect was created by water, oils, etc. left behind after the first photo. this explanation must be tentative, because after all i wasn't there when it happened. chris henrich 
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<instance id="sci.med59416">
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 draper) says: this homeopathic remedies. i tried the dander one for a month. 15 drops three times a day. i didn't notice any change whats so ever. how long were you using the drops before you noticed a difference? it is not a homeopathic remedy. improvement began in a few months. i am allergic to bermuda grass and if anyone nearby was mowing a lawn my nose would start to run. now i can walk right by and it doesn't bother me at all. the same success with desert ragweed. bruce long 
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<instance id="sci.med59418">
<answer instance="sci.med59418" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 =>yup. the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between =>the plates, and taking a kirlian photograph of it. you then cut off part of =>the leaf, put the top plate back on, and take another kirlian photograph. you =>see pretty much the same image in both cases. turns out the effect isn't =>nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between =>photographs. seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place =>conducts electricity. surprise, surprise! = this is true, but it's not quite the whole story. there were = actually some people who were more careful in their methodology = who also replicated the 'phantom leaf effect.' you can also replicate the effect with a rock: take your first kirlian photograph. then moisten one edge of the rock. lo! and behold! phantom rock! carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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<instance id="sci.med59420">
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 i am a student from san leandro high school. i am doing a research project for physics and i would like information on edward jenner and the vaccination for small pox. any information at all would be greatly apprectiated. thank you. 
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<instance id="sci.med59424">
<answer instance="sci.med59424" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : : hello, : : just one quick question: : : my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors : : have diagnosed an operation is needed. since he lives down in : : mexico, he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in : : the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery, : : kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors : : in eye surgery. any additional info or pointers will be : : appreciated a whole lot!... : there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its : orthopedists, namely the hospital for special surgery. they are located on : the upper east side of manhattan. if you want their address and phone let : me know, i'll get them, i dont know them off hand. for those who are interested the hospitals i was referring to are: the hospital for special surgery 535 east 70th street new york, ny 10021 212-606-1555 (physician referral service & info) the hospital for joint diseases 301 east 17th street new york, ny 10003 212-598-7600 /\ _ /\ | felix the cat | 0 0 |-------\== the wonderful, wonderful cat! \==@==/\ ____\ | =============================== meow!--- \_-_/ || || hoss@panix.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59425">
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 i get tired of people saying 'don't eat x because it's bad!' well, x may not be bad for everyone. and even if it is, so what? give people all the information but don't ram your decisions down their throats. it is evident you did not read my post carefully. i wasn't trying to tell you not to eat msg products and produce, nor was i arguing for or against msg. i was simply questioning the logic of your statement that simply because (a) one is not allergic to something, and (b) likes eating that it follows that one could keep eating whatever it is. in my post, i had clearly said that i don't know enough about msg. the statement "don't eat x because its bad" is just _your_ interpretation of nutritional info out there. prakash das 
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<instance id="sci.med59427">
<answer instance="sci.med59427" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have seen copper bracelet by the name of sabona created by dr. john sorenson. i am looking for literature on the effectiveness of copper bracelet in dealing with arthritis. i know in one case a 70-year old person developed bruise at the base of her left thumb after wearing the copper bracelet on her left wrist for several months. she was told the bruise is "normal" and would disappear. is the bruise reason to be concerned? should the person discontinued wearing the copper bracelet? could anyone kindly point me to literature on copper bracelet? what are the other information on copper bracelet? your response would be very much appreciated. thank you. lau hon-wah 
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<instance id="sci.med59430">
<answer instance="sci.med59430" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can anybody out there provide me with any advice concerning the following two health problems: first, i was recently diagnosed (using a ugi series) as having a schatzki ring and small sliding hiatal hernia. as i understand it, the hernia is a relatively minor problem, though i do occasionally have some nasty heartburn that is probably related to it. the schatzki ring, on the other hand, is causing swallowing difficulty. in particular, if i'm not careful about eating slowly, and thoroughly chewing food, food occasionally gets "stuck" before reaching my stomach. this results in a period of painful spasms as the food attempts to pass the obstruction. fortunately, the food has always managed to pass, but this is annoying, and causes frequent discomfort. my doctor wants to "dilate" the ring using the following procedure: use an endoscope to examine the esophagus and stomach for any inflammation, then cut through the ring and dilate it by passing some kind of balloon or something thru the esophagous. i would like to know if anyone out there has had this (or a similar) procedure done-if so, was it painful, successful, etc. also, can anyone comment on safety, advisability, and success rate of this procedure? has it become a common procedure? i am kind of leery of having such an invasive-sounding procedure performed for a (currently) non-threatening condition such as this, especially considering the possible side effects (bleeding, perforation, reaction to anesthesia). the second issue: for the past 3-4 years i have had a large number of "extra" heartbeats. in particular, during the past month or so there has been a dramatic increase-a holter monitor recently showed 50 pvc's in 24 hrs, along with a few pac's. (many days, there are far more than this, however-five to ten per hour). all of them were isolated, and the cardiologist indicated that such a number was "normal". it certainly doesn't feel normal. in the past there have also been a couple of episodes of extended "runs" of these beats, one of which lasted long enough to cause severe light-headedness. i am relatively young (30-ish), thin and in good health (recent bloodtests were all normal), and do not smoke, use drugs or caffeine, etc. i'm willing to accept the extra beats as "normal", but don't want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom. the number of pvc's seems to increase throughout the day, and with exercise (or something as simple as climbing some stairs). also, if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while, i tend to get a couple of extra beats. could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems? both seemed to develop at about the same time. thanks for any help/advice! 
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<instance id="sci.med59431">
<answer instance="sci.med59431" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 we're about to have our first baby, and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction. reguarding having a baby boy circumsized, what are the medical pros and cons? all we've heard is 'its up to the parents'. how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water? we've heard stories of infection, etc. how about after the water has broken? rmccown@world.std.com old macdonald had an agricultural real estate tax abatement. 
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<instance id="sci.med59433">
<answer instance="sci.med59433" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 :all right, listen up.... what are the possibilities of transmission through :swimming pool water? especially if the chlorination isn't up to par? :i've heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what :else is going on? no dice. as soon as the sperm cells hit the water they would virtually explode. the inside of the cell is hypertonic, and since the membrane is semipermeable water would rush in and cause the cell to burst. = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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<instance id="sci.med59437">
<answer instance="sci.med59437" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm looking for information regarding dosages of prozac used in minor depression. also any other information regarding the drug is helpful. please send responses direct. thanks! rrome@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59441">
<answer instance="sci.med59441" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 someone please help me. i am searching to find out (as many others may) an absolute 'cure' to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body. is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis. if so where can these substances be found. you could do what i do: never go near the stuff! :) :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="sci.med59442">
<answer instance="sci.med59442" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 dear news readers, is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research, specifically concerned with arrhythmias, pacing or defibrillation? i would like to hear from you. many thanks, andrew mears *************** please email me ************* ** * andrew mears h: 61-2-9774245 * * ** crc for cardiac technology, uts w: 61-2-3304091 * * ** westbourne st, gore hill f: 61-2-3304003 * ** * n.s.w 2065 email: <andrewm@iris.bio.uts.edu.au> * 
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<instance id="sci.med59445">
<answer instance="sci.med59445" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy. my son (3 months old), breast-fed, now has the same symptoms. she has been to a skin-specialist, but he has merely prescribed various medicines (one each visit as though by trial and error :-)) anti-histamines worked on both of them, but looks like becoming less effective. are there other solutions? thanks. kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road, singapore 0511 
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<instance id="sci.med59446">
<answer instance="sci.med59446" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 we're about to have our first baby, and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction. reguarding having a baby boy circumsized, what are the medical pros and cons? all we've heard is 'its up to the parents'. unfortonately, that truly is about the best summation of the research that there is. advantages stated of circumcison included probably prevention of penile cancer, (which, interestingly, occurs mostly in men whose personal hygiene is exceptionally poor), simplicity of personal hygiene, prevention of urinary tract infections, and prevention of a unretractible foreskin, disadvantages include infection from the procedure, pain, etc. i apologize; i am trying to pull this off the top of my head. i will post what i discovered in research; i did a paper on the topic in my research class in nursing school. it really is a decision that is up to the parents. some parents use the reasoning that they will "look like daddy" and like their friends as justification. there is nothing wrong with this; just be sure it is what you want to do, since it is rather difficult to uncircumcise a male, although a major surgical procedure exists. how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water? we've heard stories of infection, etc. how about after the water has broken? as long as your membranes have not broken and you have not had any problems with your pregnancy, it should be ok to sit in a tub of water. however, i would recommend using your own bathtub in your own home! it is nearly impossible to guarantee the cleanliness and safety of "public" hot tubs. a nice warm bath can be very relaxing, especially if your back is killing you! and it would possibly be advisable to avoid bubble bath soap , esp. if you are prone to yeast infection. hope these tips help you some. picl25@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59447">
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 b > medicine has not, and probalby never will be, practiced this way. there b > has always been the use of conventional wisdom. a very good example is b > kidney stones. conventional wisdom(because clinical trails have not been b > done to come up with an effective prevention), was that restricitng the b > intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b > from forming. clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b > breakdown the stone once it formed. through the recent new england j of b > medicine article, we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong, b > increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b > restricting calcium intake. b > marty b. marty, i personally wouldn't be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel. first of all, i would want to know who sponsored that study. i have seen too many "nutrition" bulletins over the years from local newspapers, magazines, to tv-guide, with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries. there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one's calcium intake. secondly, were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition? the study didn't say that, it only claimed that "most kidney stones are large- ly calcium." perhaps it won't be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings. a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong. it wouldn't be the first time. sodium/magnesium/calcium/phosphorus ratios are, in my opinion, still the most reliable indicators for the cause, treatment, and prevention of kidney stones. i, for one, will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one's diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type; and they definitely won't include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people's chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus-raising approach instead! ron roth -- internet: rn.3228@rose.com - rosenet: ron roth@rosehamilton -- * a stone on the ground is better than a stone in the body. rosereader 2.10 p003228 entered at [rosehamilton] rosemail 2.10 : usenet: rose media - hamilton (416) 575-5363 
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<instance id="sci.med59449">
<answer instance="sci.med59449" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am currently in the throes of a hay fever attack. so who certainly never reads usenet, let alone sci.med, said quite spontaneously " there are a lot of mushrooms and toadstools out on the lawn at the moment. sure that's not your problem?" well, who knows? or maybe it's the sourdough bread i bake? after reading learned, semi-learned, possibly ignorant and downright ludicrous stuff in this thread, i am about ready to believe anything :-) if the hayfever gets any worse, maybe i will cook those toadstools... the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch@swell.actrix.gen.nz pat churchill, wellington new zealand 
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<instance id="sci.med59450">
<answer instance="sci.med59450" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am interested in trying this "desensitization" (?) method against hay fever. what is the state of affairs about this. i went to a doctor and paid $85 for a 10 minute interview + 3 scratches, leading to the diagnostic that i am allergic to (june and timothy) grass. i believe this. from now on it looks like 2 shots per week for 6 months followed by 1 shot per month or so. each shot costs $20. talking about soaring costs and the health care system, i would call that a racket. we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here, but the garbage which grows behind the doctor's office. apart from this issue, i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever. is that right? thanks for information. go to your public library and get the february, 1988 issue of consumer reports. an article on allergy shots begins on page 96. this article is must reading for anyone contemplating allergy shots. 
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<instance id="sci.med59453">
<answer instance="sci.med59453" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months. i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages, and i have tried m-bonding the gages to the bone. apart from those two application methods there doesn't seem to be much else in the literature. i have only an engineering background not medical or biological. i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone. thanks for oyur help in advance. terrance j dishongh ame_0123@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu there is a good article entitled: "a long-term in vivo bone strain measurement device," journal of investigative surgery 1989; 2(2): 195-206 by szivek ja & magee fp. i think you can find some others by searching medline. partap s. khalsa, ms, dc, faco post-doc research fellow u.mass.med. school 
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<instance id="sci.med59456">
<answer instance="sci.med59456" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 (i've already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn't really help them). i am a moderately severe asthmatic. ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery. also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved. did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life? actually, severe headaches due to stopped up sinuses (plugged ostia) are possible, and sinus surgery which widens the ostia - from the normal 2 mm to about 10 mm - should relieve this. there are non-surgical ways, however, to keep the ostia open (however, in a few individuals, their ostia are naturally very small), and dr. ivker's book talks about this. the underlying cause of chronic sinusitis is not cured by this kind of sinus surgery, though. about asthma, that's a little more controversial. dr. ivker, in his book, "sinus survival", *speculates* (and says it's not proven), that many cases of asthma are triggered by chronic sinusitis due to the excessive drainage (postnasal drip) from the sinuses. he's had many patients who've found relief from asthma when the chronic sinusitis is reduced or eliminated - not clinical proof, but compelling anecdotal information of this speculation. before doing any sinus surgery, first get the book - it discusses surgery, as well as a good non-surgical treatment program for chronic sinusitis. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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<instance id="sci.med59459">
<answer instance="sci.med59459" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 a student told me today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones, a cyst on one kidney, and a kidney infection. she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall, and she has been ill all this time. during her most recent doctor's appointment at her parents' hmo clinic, she said that about forty! x-rays were made of her kidney. when she asked why so many x-rays were being made, she was told by a technician that they need to see the area from different views, but she says that about five x-rays were made from each angle. she couldn't help feeling that something must be wrong with the procedure or something. she is a pre-med student and feels she could have understood what was happening if someone would have explained. when nobody would, she got also, she is told that thre are 300! surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so. it is now april... she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids. but she has to go to classes. she wonders why they have given her no medicine. she plans to call back her doctor's office / clinic and try to get answers to these questions. but i told her i would also write in to sci.med and see what i could find out about why there were so many x-rays and whether it seems o.k. to wait in line 3 or more months for surgery for something like this or whether she should be looking elsewhere for her care. she does plan to get a second opinion, too. i will pass info on to her. it never hurts to get information from more than one source. you can e-mail me or post. my opinion(for what it's worth) is that 40 x-rays is *way* too many. guidleines have been set on the number of dental x-rays and chest x-rays that one should have over a given period of time because of all the environmental factors that can cause cancer in humans, ionizing radiation is one of the most potent(splits dna and causes hydroxyl free radical formation in tissue cells). ultasound(like that used in seeing the fetus in the uterus) has been shown to be extremely good at picking up tumors in the prostate and gallstones in the gallbladder. but kidney tissue may be too dense for ultrasound to work for kidney stones(any radiologists care to comment?). most stones will pass(but it's a very painful process). unlike gallstones, i don't think that there are many drugs that can help "dissolve" the kidney stone(which is probably calcium-oxalate). vitamin c and magnesium have worked in rabbits to remove calcium from calcified plaques in the aterial wall. i have no idea if a diet change or supplementation could speed up the process of kidney stone passage(but i'm pretty confident that a diet change and/or supplementation can prevent a reoccurance). if surgery is being contemplated, the stone must be in the kidney tubule. a second opinion is a good idea because there are better(less damaging) ways to break up the stone if it's logged within the kidney(sonic blasts). hmo's are notorious for conservative care and long waits for expensvie treatments. my condolences to your friend. marty b. 
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<instance id="sci.med59460">
<answer instance="sci.med59460" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax? should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it, or should you clean it out every so often? can cleaning it out damage your eardrums? are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked? 
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<instance id="sci.med59461">
<answer instance="sci.med59461" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can anyone out there tell me the difference between a "persistent" disease and a "chronic" one? for example, persistent hepatitis vs chronic i don't think there is a general distinction. rather, there are two classes of chronic hepatitis: chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis. i can't think of any other disease where the term persistent is used with or in preference to chronic. much as these two terms "chronic active" and "chronic persistent" sound fuzzy, the actual distinction between the two conditions is often fairly fuzzy as well. david rind rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59464">
<answer instance="sci.med59464" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 forgive me, but just the other day i read on some newsgroup or other a physician's posting about the theraputic uses of vitamin b6. i can't seem to locate the article, but i recall there was mention of some safe i looked at a "balanced 100" time release formulation from walgreen's and noted that the 100 mg of b6 was some thousands times the rda. is this safe?!?. also what was the condition that b6 was theraputic for? mail would be just fine if you don't want to clog the net. leon traister (lmtra@uts.amdahl.com) 
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<instance id="sci.med59466">
<answer instance="sci.med59466" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife has requested that i poll the sages of usenet to see what is known about the use of chromium in weight-control diet suppliments. she has seen multiple products advertising it and would like any kind real information. my first impulse was "yuck! a metal!" but i have zero data on it. what do you know? henry melton rhca80@melton.sps.mot.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59469">
<answer instance="sci.med59469" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 [summarized] a person with a schatzki's ring (a membrane partially blocking the espphagus) has worsening dysphagia (difficulty swallowing) and the doctor proposes dilation by balloow or bougie (using an inflatable balloon to rupture the ring or a rubber hose to push through it. question: is balloon dilation safe, common, and indicated? it sounds pretty invasive. [end summary] yes, this is a common and safe procedure. the majority of schatzki's rings described by x-ray, however, wnd up being due to inflammation instead of the congenital schatzki's ring. occassionally a cancer masquerades as a ring. you should have the endoscopy to see if it is due to the heartburn, and if so, you will need treatment for the heartburn ong term. the balloon dilation is an alternative to cutting open your chest and cutting out a section of the esophagus, so dilation is not at all invasive, considering the alternative. the second issue: [summarized] he has had extra heartbeats for the past 3 to 4 years, and once was symptomatic from them, with some he is young, (30-ish), thin and in good health (recent bloodtests were all normal), and do not smoke, use drugs or caffeine, etc. i'm willing to accept the extra beats as "normal", but don't want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom. the number of pvc's seems to increase throughout the day, and with exercise (or something as simple as climbing some stairs). also, if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while, i tend to get a couple of extra beats. could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems? both seemed to develop at about the same time. i' not an expert on heart problems, but pvc's are common and have been overtreated in the past. my personal experience, and i have the same history an build you do (related to the heart, that is), is that my pvc's come and go, with some months causing anxiety. taking on more fluids seems to help, and they seem worse in the summer. remember that a slow heart rate will allow more pvc's to be apparent, so perhaps it is an indication of a healthy cardiac system (but ask an expert about that last point, especially) good luck, hope we don't die of arrhythmias. (god, what a happy thought) steve holland 
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<instance id="sci.med59470">
<answer instance="sci.med59470" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 recently i've come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition. no doubt the sci.med* folks are getting out their flamethrowers. i'm rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature in the accepted academic/scientific journals. so, the righteous among them will no doubt jump on that. also, insofar as it doesn't conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn't matter what you eat, and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong (except for maybe cancer and ulcers), the righteous will no doubt jump on that too. then there'll be the ones who call your doctor a raving quack, even though he, like linus pauling, is lucid and robust well into his nineties--but nevermind about that. he shouldn't charge for his equipment and supplies, since they're no doubt not approved by the fda. of course, with fda approval an md or pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments as thalidomide. but nevermind about that either. unfortunately, you dared to step into the sacred turf of net.medical. discussion without a credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you as a fool. but maybe somebody without such a huge chip on their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses by e-mail. 1/2 ;^) 1/2 ;^( oh yes, i did have a point. a few years ago an md with a thriving practice in a very wealthy part of silicon valley once recommended that i take such treatments to clear up a skin condition. (not through his office, i might add.) although i'm sure that's not conclusive, it was sure an unusual prescription! the bacteria in your gut are important. but colonic flushes are not the way to improve gut function. each person has almost a unique mix of bacteria in his/her gut. diet affects this mix as does the use of antibiotics. a diet change is a much better way to alter the players in your gut than is colonic flushes. cross contamination has been a real problem in some of the outfits that do this "treatment" since the equipment is not always cleaned as well as it should be between patient "treatments". dental drills have me a little concerned about hiv infection and i've picked a dentist that uses both chemical and autoclave sterilization of his instruments(more clostly but much safer). full sterile technique is also used just like that practiced in an or(mask, gloves and gowns worn and disposed of between patients). each visit costs me 15 dollars more than the standard and customary fee so i have to pay it out of pocket. his much higher fees do not drive away patients. i can not think of any good reason why someone should subject themselves to this colonic flush procedure. for very little, if any benefit, you subject yourself to hepatitis, cholera, parasitic disease and even hiv. just ask yourself why someone might resort to this kind of treatment? could they be having gi distress? could this distress be due to a pathogenic organism? could i get this organism if the equipment is not cleaned properly between patients? do i really want to take this risk? food for thought. marty b. 
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<instance id="sci.med59471">
<answer instance="sci.med59471" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy. my son (3 months old), breast-fed, now has the same symptoms. she has been to a skin-specialist, but he has merely prescribed various medicines (one each visit as though by trial and error :-)) anti-histamines worked on both of them, but looks like becoming less effective. are there other solutions? thanks. kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road, singapore 0511 food products can get through breast milk and cause allergies in the young. since the son is allergic it would be best not to go to bottle feedings, but rather eliminate foods from mother's diet. your pediatrician should be able to give you a list of foods to avoid. good luck, steve 
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<instance id="sci.med59474">
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 : my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones. she says that because she has no : medical insurance, she cannot get them removed. : my question: is there any way she can treat them herself, or at least mitigate : their effects? any help is deeply appreciated. (advice, referral to literature, : etc...) : thank you, : dave carvell : pk115050@wvnvms.wvnet.edu first off, i would consider the severity of the pain. i had stones several years ago, and there's now way i could have made it without heavy duty doses of morphine and demerol and a two week stay in the hospital. i was told that there was nothing that i could take that would dissolve them. if the stones are passible, the best thing she could do is drink lots of water, and hope that they pass, but every time they move a little, the pain will be excrutiating. i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth. (yes, by a male doctor, so i'm sure some of you women will disagree). i'd really like to know the truth in this, so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in. jeff silva (707) 577-2681 jeffs@sr.hp.com 
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 (i've already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn't really help them). i am a moderately severe asthmatic. ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery. also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved. did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life? you probably were trying to be facetious but just for the record partial nasal obstruction is correlated with a number of chronic disorders such as migraine, hyperthyroidism, asthma, peptic ulcer, dysmenorrhea, and lack of libido (:-) ) [riga in. rev d'oto-neuro-ophthalmol 1957;24:325-335], cardiac symptoms [jackson rt. annals of otology 1976;85:65-70 cvetnic mh, cvetnic v. rhinology 1980;18:47-50 cottle mh. rhinology 1980;18:67-81], and fever, inadequate oral intake and electrolyte imbalance [fairbanks dnf. otorhinolaryngology head and neck surgery 1986;94:412-415). so before you post your inane comments it would be nice if you'd run a medline search on the topic say back to 1966. there's been extensive literature on this for over a 100 years. i may be in cardiology but i've had a very good working relationship with my colleagues from ent. backon@vms.huji.ac.il 
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 what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax? should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it, or should you clean it out every so often? can cleaning it out damage your eardrums? are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked? assuming that the wax is causing hearing loss, congestion or popping in the ears, you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with a bulb syringe, but it is awkward to do for oneself and may not work or may even make things worse. (my wife would disagree, she does it successfully every six months or so.) in any case do not attempt anything with q-tips!!! my experience has been that this is initially best handled by a ear/nose/throat person. i say initially, because an ent can evaluate whether or not you might have success on your own with a little i am not a physician (obviously, because i eschew the term otolaryngologist); this posting is based only on personal experience. <usual disclaimer> "the best is the enemy of the good" - voltaire leon traister (lmtra@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com) c/o amdahl corporation (408)737-5449 1250 e. arques ave. m/s 338 p.o. box 3470 sunnyvale, ca 94088-3470 
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 i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months. i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages, and i have tried m-bonding the gages to the bone. apart from those two application methods there doesn't seem to be much else in the literature. i have only an engineering background not medical or biological. i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone. thanks for oyur help in advance. terrance j dishongh ame_0123@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu 
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 i do believe that depression can have a dietary component. depression can also have various chemical (environmental) components. i noticed that i became depressed in various buildings, and at home when the air conditioning was on. subsequent testing revealed that i was allergic to stemphyllium, a mold commonly found in air conditioners. after i began taking antigens, that problem disappeared. bruce l. 
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 laser printers often emit ozone (which smells sort of like clorox). adequate ventilation is recommended. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 move a little, the pain will be excrutiating. i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth. (yes, by a male doctor, so i'm sure some of you women will disagree). i'd really like to know the truth in this, so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in. one more reason for men to learn the lamaze breathing techniques, in order to be able to get some pain reduction instantly, wherever you are. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 some of the md's in this newsgroup have been riding my butt pretty good (maybe in some cases with good reason). in this post on depression, i'm laying it all out. i'll continue to post here because i think that i have some knowledge that could be useful. once you have read this post, you should know where i'm coming from when i post again in the future. a family member of mine is suffering from a severe depression brought on by menopause as well as a mental break down. she is being treated with halydol with some success but the treatments being provided through her psychiatrist are not satisfactory. someone suggested contacting a nutritionist to discuss alternative treatment. since she is sensitive to medication, i think this is a good suggestion but don't know where to begin. if anyone can suggest a philly area nutritionist, or else some literature to read, i'd appreciate it. i can emphasize with your situation. both my wife and i suffered from bouts of depression. her's was brought on by breast cancer and mine was a rebound stress reaction to her modified radical mastectomy and chemotherapy. lida, i used my knowledge of nutrition to get her through her six months of chemotherapy(with the approval of her oncologist). when severe depression set in a few months after the chemo stopped, i tried to use supplements to bring her out of it. i had "cured" her pms using supplements and i really thought that i knew enough about the role of diet in depression to take care of her depression as well. it didn't work and she was put on prozac by her oncologist. two winters ago(three years after by wife's breast cancer) i got hit with severe depression(pretty typical and one reason why many marriages break up after breast cancer or another stressor). i tried to take care of it for several months with supplementation. didn't work. my internist ended up putting me on prozac. i was going to give you a list of several studies that have been done using b6, niacin, folate and b12 to "cure" depression. i'm not going to do that because all you would be doing is flying blind like i was. lida, i do believe that depression can have a dietary component. but the problem is that you need to know exactly what the problem is and then use an approach which will "fix" the problem. for chemotherapy, i knew exactly what drugs were going to be used and exactly what nutrients would be affected. same thing for pms. i was flying blind for both of these stressors but the literature that i used to devise a treatment program was pretty good. depression is just too complicated. what you really need is a nutritional scan. this is not a diet analysis but an analysis of your bodies nutrient reserves. for every vitamin and mineral(except vitamin c), you have a reserve. the rda is not designed to give you enough of any nutrient to keep these reserves full, it is only designed to keep them from being emptied which would cause clinical pathology. stress will increase your need for many vitamins and minerals. this is when your reserves become very important. lida, without your permission, i'm going to use your post as a conduit to try to explain to the readers in this group and sci. med. where i'm coming from. i have taught a course on human nutrition in one of the osteopathic medical schools for ten years now. i've written my own textbook because none was available. what i teach is not a rehash of biochemistry. i preach nutrient reserves(yes my lectures in this course are referred to by my students as sermons). here is what i cover: indroduction and carbohydrates lipids proteins i proteins ii energy balance evaluation of nutritional status i, a clinical evaluation of nutritional status ii, evaluation of nutritional a biochemical perspective status iii, homework assignment using the nutritionist iv diet and fitness analysis software weight control food fads and facts age-related change in nutrient requirements food additives, contaminants and cancer drug-nutrient interactions mineral and water balance sodium, potassium and chloride calcium, magnesium and iron zinc and copper iodine and fluoride other trace minerals vitamin a vitamin e vitamins d and k vitamin c thiamin and niacin riboflavin and pyridoxine pantothenic and folic acids biotin and b12 other nutrient factors enteral nutrition parenteral nutrition every three years i spend my entire summer reviewing the medical literature to find material that i can use in my nutrition textbook. i last did this in the summer of 1991. i read everything that i can find and then sit down and rewrite my lecture handouts which are bound in three separate books that have 217, 237 and 122 pages. opposite each page of written text(which i write myself) i've pulled figures, tables and graphs from various copyrighted sources. since this material is only being used for educational purposes, i can get around the copyright laws (so far). i can not send this material out to newsgroup readers(as i've been asked to do). i am now in the process of trying to get a grant to setup a nutrition assessment lab. this is the last peice of the nutrition puzzle that i need to make my education program complete. this lab will let me measure the nutrient reserve for almost all the vitamins and minerals that are known to be required in humans. the mayo clinic already uses a similiar lab to design supplement programs for their cancer patients. cancer treatment centers of america, which is a private for-profit organization with hospitals in illinois and oklahoma(tulsa) also operates a nutritional assessment clinical lab. i also believe that the pritikin clinic in california has a similiar lab setup. for physicians reading this post, i would suggest that you get the new clinical nutrition textbook that has just been published(feb) by mosby. i have been using alpers manual of nutritional therapeutics(a little brown series book) as a supplemental text for my course but alpers is geared more to residency training. two m.d's have written this new clinical nutrition textbook and it is geared more towards medical student education and it does a good job of covering the lab tests that can be run to assess a patient's nutritional status. let me quote a few sentences from the preface of this new text: "so-called nutrition specialists were in reality gastroenterologists, hematologists, or pediatricians who just happened to profess some knowledge of nutrition as it related to their field of practice." "unfortunately, about two thirds of the medical schools in the united states require no formal instruction in nutrition." "but times and medical practice have changed. more than half of the leading causes of death in this country are nutrition related." "... this monograph should accomplish the following two objectives: (1) it should complement your medical training by emphasizing the relevance of nutrition to your medical practice; and (2) it should heighten your awareness of nutrition as a medical speciality that is vitally important for both disease prevention and the treatment of diseases of essentially every organ system." roland l. weinsier, md, drph lida, my advise to you is that you tell your family members to try to find a physician who has an understanding of the role that vitamins and minerals (yes even magnesium may play a role in depression) play in depression and who could get a nutritional profile run. menopause is often a time when women suffer depression. there are a lot of hormonal changes that are occuring but they are not the same ones that occur during pms. a nutritionist may also be able to help. not too long ago a poster mentioned that his nutritionist had diagnosed a selenium deficiency based on a red cell glutathionine peroxidase test(the specific test for the selenium reserve). most clinical labs will not run this test and i advised him to try to make sure that the lab that did the test was certified. there are also a lot of hair and nail analysis labs setup to do trace mineral analysis but these labs are not regulated. checks of these labs using certified standards, and also those doing water lead analysis, showed some pretty shoddy testing was going on. if you or anyone else finds someone who will run these speciality nutrition tests, make sure that they are using a lab that has been certified under clia(the clinical laboratory improvement act). a diet analysis may be helpful since many nutrient reserves have been shown to correlate fairly well with the dietary intake as monitored by food logging and software analysis(nutritionist iv and other software programs). but there are still about half of the nutrients required by humans that do not show a very good correlation between apparent dietary intake and reserve status. until we have more nutritional assessment clinical labs in operation in the u.s. and physicians who have been trained how to use the nutritional profile that these labs provide to devise a treatment approach that uses diet changes and supplementation, anti-depressants will probably continue to be the best approach to depression. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine "without discourse, there is no remembering, without remembering, there is no learning, without learning, there is only ignorance." 
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 b > medicine has not, and probalby never will be, practiced this way. there b > has always been the use of conventional wisdom. a very good example is b > kidney stones. conventional wisdom(because clinical trails have not been b > done to come up with an effective prevention), was that restricitng the b > intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b > from forming. clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b > breakdown the stone once it formed. through the recent new england j of b > medicine article, we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong, b > increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b > restricting calcium intake. b > marty b. marty, i personally wouldn't be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel. first of all, i would want to know who sponsored that study. i have seen too many "nutrition" bulletins over the years from local newspapers, magazines, to tv-guide, with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries. there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one's calcium intake. secondly, were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition? the study didn't say that, it only claimed that "most kidney stones are large- ly calcium." perhaps it won't be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings. a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong. it wouldn't be the first time. sodium/magnesium/calcium/phosphorus ratios are, in my opinion, still the most reliable indicators for the cause, treatment, and prevention of kidney stones. i, for one, will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one's diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type; and they definitely won't include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people's chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus-raising approach instead! ron roth ron, you are absolutely right. not all kidney stones have calcium and not all calcium stones are calcium-oxalate. but the vast majority are calcium- oxalate. calcium is just one piece of the puzzle. i cited that nejm article as a way of pointing out to some of the physicians in this group that conventional wisdom is used in medicine, always has been and probably always will be. if one uses conventional wisdom, there is a chance that you will be wrong. as long as the error is not going to cause a lot of damage, what's the big deal(why call a physician who gives anti-fungals to sinus suffers or gi distress patients a quack?). on the kidney stone problem. i'd want a mineral profile run in a clinical chemistry lab. balance is much more important than the dietary intake of calcium. i know that you use an electrical conductance technique to measure mineral balance in the body. i know that you don't think that the serum levels for minerals are very useful(i agree). if i can get a good nutritional assessment lab setup where i can actually measure the tissue reserve for minerals, i'd like to do a collaborative study with you to see how your technique compares with mine. marty b. 
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 i have just started taking allergy shots a month ago and is still wondering what i am getting into. a friend of mine told me that the body change every 7 years (whatever that means) and i don't need those antibody-building allergy shots at all. does that make sense to anyone? btw, can someone summarize what is in the consumer report february, 1988 article? 
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 hi all, my skin is very dry in general. but the most serious part is located from knees down. the skin there looks like segmented. the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin. i would like to know if there is any cure for this. at the supermarkets or pharmacies, there are quite a lot of stuffs for dry skins, but what to chose? thanks in advance for all advices and hints. reply by email preferred. 
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 does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are? ... the millipede's around here (austin) have no sting. some of the centipedes do. the question rebecca snyder asks is much like asking "how venomous are snakes?" one either wants to ask "which snake?" or point to some reference on the many different species of snake. similarly, there are many different species of millipede and centipede. (these are different families; millipedes have two pairs of legs per body segment, while centipedes have but one pair.) sorry if this information is not useful. 
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 i recently heard of some testing of a new migraine drug called sumatripton (i have no idea of the actual spelling) that supposedly utilizes a chemical that trips neuro-transmitters. my mother has regular migraines and nothing seems to help - does anyone know anything about this new drug? is it in a testing phaze or anywhere near approval? does it seem to be working? any information would help. please feel free to e-mail rather than take up bandwidth if you prefer. thanks in advance, roxannen@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us "virtue is a relative term." 
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 someone please help me. i am searching to find out (as many others may) an absolute 'cure' to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body. is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis. if so where can these substances be found. you could do what i do: never go near the stuff! :) there's always the old switcheroo. my brother works at a dialysis clinic. they were interviewing candidates for a technician job (mainly electronics tech), and a urine screen was part of the interview. the bathroom was across the hall from a lab. one candidate managed to switch his urine sample with one he grabbed from the lab. (no one was in it at the time.) most inner-city dialysis patients have quite a few medical problems, so it was immediately obvious what had happened. my brother fleetingly considered telling the candidate, "i'm sorry but you are very ill and need medical attention immediately." they offered him another *well-monitored* chance and he declined. 
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 flame on reading through the posts about kirlian (whatever spelling) photography i couldn't help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow-minded, "i know it all", "i don't believe what i can't see or measure" attitude of many people out there. i am neither a real believer, nor a disbeliever when it comes to so-called "paranormal" stuff; but as far as i'm concerned, it is just as likely as the existence of, for instance, a god, which seems to be quite accepted in our societies - without any scientific basis. accepted by whom? people who think digital watches are a real good idea? that 60 channels of television is 10x better than 6 channels of television? i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something, anything, simply because it doesn't fit your current frame of reference. history shows that many great people, great scientists, were people who kept an open mind - and were ridiculed by sceptics. you're right. keep an open mind to the following: 1. taco flavored donuts. 2. cannibalism. good way to get that extra protein in the diet. 3. belief in yawanga, armadillo god of parking meters. mark vandewettering truest servant of yawanga! oh yawanga! he who never will become a road-pizza! all of my quarters and dimes, nay even nickels, will be spent to buy time to park in your eternal parking lot! 
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 my wife has requested that i poll the sages of usenet to see what is known about the use of chromium in weight-control diet suppliments. she has seen multiple products advertising it and would like any kind real information. my first impulse was "yuck! a metal!" but i have zero data on it. what do you know? henry melton i'll tell you all that i know about chromium. but before i do, i want to get a few things off my chest. i just got blasted in e-mail for my kidney stone posts. kidney stones are primarily caused by diet, as is heart disease and cancer. when i give dietary advise, it is not intended to encourage people reading this news group(or sci. med. nutrition where i do most of my posting) to avoid seeing a doctor. nothing can be further from the truth. kidney stones can be caused by tumors and this possibility has to be ruled out. but once it is, diet is a good way of preventing a reoccurance. same thing with heart disease and cancer, if you suspect that you may have a problem with one of these diseases, don't use what i'm going to tell you or what you read in some book to avoid going to a doctor. you have to go. hopefully you will find a doctor who knows enough about nutrition to help you change your risk factors for both diseases as part of a treatment program(but the odds are that you will not and that's why i'm here). when my wife detected a lump in here breast i didn't say, don't worry my vitamin e will take care of it. any breast lump has to be worked up by a physician, plan and simple. if it's begnin(which most are) fine, then maybe a diet change and supplementation will prevent further breast lumps from occuring. but let me tell you right now, if you have tried diet and supplementation and another lump returns, get your butt into the doctor's office as fast as your little feet can carry you(better yet, have a mammography done on a regular basis, my wife kept putting her's off, both myself and her gynocologist told her she needed to have one done). her gynocologist even scheduled one, but she didn't show up(too busy running the operating room for the biggest hospital in tulsa). one more thing, i am not an orthomolecular nutritionist. this group uses high dose vitamins and minerals to treat all kinds of disease. there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that vitamins and minerals can and do have drug actions in the body. but you talk about flying blind, man this is really blind treatment. no drug could ever be used as these vitamins and minerals are being used. i'm not saying that some of this stuff couldn't be right on the money, it may well be. but my approach to nutrition is a lot like that of weinsier and morgan, the two m.d's who wrote the new clinical nutrition textbook. my push is the nutrient reserves and the lab tests needed to measure these reserves and then supplementation or diet changes to get these reserves built up to where they should be to let you handle stress. that's where i'm coming from folks. blast away if you want, i'm not going to change. put me in your killfile if you want, i really don't care. i'm averaging 8-10 e-mail messages a day from people who think that i've got something important to say. but i'm also getting hit by a few with an axe to grind. that's life. chromium is one of the trace elements. it has a very limited(but very important) role in the body. it is used to form glucose tolerance factor (gtf). gtf is made up of chromium, nicinamide(niacin), glycine, cysteine and glutamic. only the chromium and the niacin are needed from the diet to form gtf. some foods already have gtf(liver, brewers or nutritional yeast, and black pepper). when chromium is in gtf, a pretty good absorption is seen(about 20%). but when it is simply present as a mineral or mineral chelate(chromium picolinate) it's absorption is much lower(1 to 2%, lowest for all the minerals). i've been posting in misc. fitness and chromium has come up there several times as a "fat burner". chromium is among the least toxic of the minerals so you could really load yourself up and not really do any harm. i wouldn't do it though. the adequate and safe range for chromium is 50 to 200ug per day. the average american is getting about 30ug per day from his/her diet. chromium levels decrease with age and many believe that adult onset diabetes is primarily a chromium deficiency. i can cite you several studies that have been done with glucose tolerance in type ii diabetes but i'm not going to because for each positive one, there also seems to be a negative one as well. i'm convinced that the problem is bioavailability. when yeast(gtf) is used, good results are obtained but when chromium itself is used the results are usually negative. in addition to type ii diabetes, chromiuum has been examined in cardiovascular disease and glucoma, again with mixed results as far as cardiovascular disease is since a high blood glucose level can lead to cardiovascular disease, this possible link with chromium isn't too surprising. glucoma is a little more interesting. muscle eye focusing activity is primarily an insulin responsive glucose-driven metabolic function. if this eye focusing activity is impaired(by a lack of glucose due to a poor insulin response), intraocular pressure is believed to be elevated. in a fairly large study of 400 pts with glaucoma, the one consistent finding was a low rbc chromium. j. am. coll. nutr. 10(5):536,(1991). but this one preliminary study should not prompt people to go out and start popping chromium supplements. for one thing, just about every older person is going to have a low rbc chromium unless they have been taking chromium suppleemnts(yeast). since glucoma is often found in older people, it's not too surprising that chromium was low in the rbc's. if chromium supplementation could reverse glucoma, that would prompt some attention. i suspect that there will be a clinical trail to check out this possible chromium link to glucoma. you could find out what your body chromium pool size was by either the rbc chromium test or hair analysis. most clinical labs are not going to run a rbc chromium. there are plenty of labs that will do a hair and nail analysis for you, but i wouldn't use them. there is just too much funny business going on in these unregulated labs right now. here's weinsier and morgan, advise on chromium. they do not consider chromium to be one of those minerals for which a reliable clinical test is available(they don't like the hair and nail analysis labs either, and they also recognize the rbc chromium is primarily a research test that is not routinely available in most clinical chemistry labs). this has to change and as more labs run a rbc chromiuum, it will. what then do they suggest? make a diagnosis of chromium deficiency based on a documented clinical response to chromium(run a glucose tolerance test before and after chromium supplementation). once you make the diagnosis, put the patient on 200ug of crcl3 orally each day or 10grams of yeast per day. what's my advise? don't take chromium supplements to try to loose weight (they just do not work that way). if you want to take them and then exercise, that would be great. do include yeast as part of your diet(most americans are not getting enough chromium from their diet). if you do have a poor glucose tolerance, ask your doctor to check your chromium status. when he or she says, "what in the world are you talking about", just say, please get a copy of weinsier and morgan's new clinical nutrition textbook and do what they say to do with patients who present with a poor glucose tolerance. if you can't do that, i'll find a doctor who can, thank you very much. marty b. 
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 : >move a little, the pain will be excrutiating. i was told by my doctor : >at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth. (yes, : >by a male doctor, so i'm sure some of you women will disagree). i'd : >really like to know the truth in this, so maybe some of you women who : >have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in. : one more reason for men to learn the lamaze breathing techniques, in order : to be able to get some pain reduction instantly, wherever you are. : :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** : :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* : :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * : :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< it would have been pretty difficult to practice my hee hee's while i was keeled over pukeing my guts out though. jeff silva jeffs@sr.hp.com 
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 i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a "licensed herbologist and iridologist" i don't believe any state licenses herbologists or iridologists. robert greenstein what the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking green@srilanka.island.com that by his laughter he shows superiority instead of latent idiocy - m. corelli 
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 i am looking for statistics on the prevalence of disorders that are treatable with botulinum type a. these disorders include: facial dyskinesia, meige syndrome, hemifacial spasm, apraxia of eyelid openeing, aberrant regeneration of the facial nerve, facial paralysis, strabismus, spasmodic torticollis, muscle spasm, occupational dystonia (i.e. writers cramp, etc.), spasmodic dysphonia, and temporal mandibular joint disease. i realize many of the disorders i listed (such as "muscle spasm" !!) are vaguely defined and may encompass a wide range of particular disorders. my apologies; the list was provided to me as is. i have some numbers, but not any ideas on sources or, even bbetter, any actual figures (with source listed)? many thanks, ~ meg arnold, business intelligence center, sri international. ~ ~ 333 ravenswood avenue, menlo park, ca 94025. ~ ~ phone: (415) 859-3764 internet: meg_arnold@qm.sri.com ~ 
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 in a previous article, banschbach@vms.ocom.okstate.edu () says: least a few "enlightened" physicians practicing in the u.s. it's really too bad that most u.s. medical schools don't cover nutrition because if they did, candida would not be viewed as a non-disease by so many in the medical profession. case western reserve med school teaches nutrition in its own section as well as covering it in other sections as they apply (i.e. b12 deficiency in neuro as a cause of neuropathy, b12 deficiency in hematology as a cause of megaloblastic anemia), yet i sill hold the viewpoint of mainstream medicine: candida can cause mucocutaneous candidiasis, and, in already very sick patients with damaged immune systems like aids and cancer patients, systemic candida infection. i think "the yeast connection" is a bunch of hooey. what does this have to do with how well nutrition is taught, anyway? here is a brief primer on yeast. yeast infections, as they are commonly called, are not truely caused by yeasts. the most common organism responsible for this type of infection is candida albicans or monilia which is actually a yeast-like fungus. well, maybe i'm getting picky, but i always thought that a yeast was one form that a fungus could exist in, the other being the mold form. many fungi can occur as either yeasts or molds, depending on environment. candida exibits what is known as reverse dimorphism - it exists as a mold in the tissues but exists as a yeast in the environment. should we maybe call it a mold infection? a fungus infection? maybe we should say it is caused by a mold-like fungus. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine 1111 west 17th st. tulsa, ok. 74107 you're the chairman of biochem and micro and you didn't know that a yeast is a form of a fungus? (shudder) or maybe you did know, and were oversimplifying? 
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<instance id="sci.med59505">
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 the second issue: [summarized] he has had extra heartbeats for the past 3 to 4 years, and once was symptomatic from them, with some he is young, (30-ish), thin and in good health (recent bloodtests were all normal), and do not smoke, use drugs or caffeine, etc. i'm willing to accept the extra beats as "normal", but don't want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom. the number of pvc's seems to increase throughout the day, and with exercise (or something as simple as climbing some stairs). also, if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while, i tend to get a couple of extra beats. could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems? both seemed to develop at about the same time. i' not an expert on heart problems, but pvc's are common and have been overtreated in the past. my personal experience, and i have the same history an build you do (related to the heart, that is), is that my pvc's come and go, with some months causing anxiety. taking on more fluids seems to help, and they seem worse in the summer. remember that a slow heart rate will allow more pvc's to be apparent, so perhaps it is an indication of a healthy cardiac system (but ask an expert about that last point, especially) i too have had premature ventricular heartbeat, starting in 1974. (these are not, by the way, "extra" heartbeats. this is how they feel, and this is how i described them initially to the doctor, but they're actually *premature* heartbeats. i would sometimes experience a lapse after one of these that went on for a suffocatingly long period of time, making me wonder if my heart were ever going to beat again.) i had them persistently for eighteen years. then i went on a low-fat diet, and they just stopped. i haven't had a single episode of pvh for almost two years. i know: correlation does not imply causation. this is just fwiw. --barbara 
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<instance id="sci.med59507">
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 ideas for the relief of sciatica. please respond to my e-mail 
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<instance id="sci.med59508">
<answer instance="sci.med59508" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i heard a great civil war story... a guy on the battlfield is shot in the groin, the bullet continues on it's path, and lodges in the abdomen of a female spectator. lo and behold.... as the legend goes, both parents survived, married, and raised the child. "death. taxes. math. jazz." - wean hall bathroom graffiti gabriel underwood gabe+@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.med59510">
<answer instance="sci.med59510" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : am i justified in being pissed off at this doctor? : last saturday evening my 6 year old son cut his finger badly with a knife. : i took him to a local "urgent and general care" clinic at 5:50 pm. the : clinic was open till 6:00 pm. the receptionist went to the back and told the <: ....other good stuff about the drs idiocy ok, much as i hate to do it, here i am posting an even better "dr. idiot" i was in my 18th hour of labor, had been pushing for 4.5 hours and was exhausted. my ob and i decided to go for a csec. the ob called in the anesthisiologist (sp?) and asked him to help prep me for surgery. after, watching me go through a couple contractions, the anes (or anus as i like to refer to him) said, "well, i am off duty now." (still staring between my legs at that). the ob asked to go call whomever it was who was on duty and ask him/her how long it would take...and if it was going to take more than a few minutes, to please stay even though he was off duty. the anes. went out, supposedly to call the on-call anes. in a couple of minutes the nurse came running in to tell the ob that the anes. had left without even trying to get ahold of the on-call. it was the only time during my labor that i swore. the on-call anes. took 20 minutes to get come to find out, the anes. had only just gone off duty (about 2 minutes before) and technically was supposed to stay in the hospital until the next on-call got there. good thing for all of us (especially him) that it was not a critical emergency. but boy would i love to knock that fellow's ouchie places ...just to let him be in pain a few little minutes. i have run into "dr. idiots", "mechanic idiots", "clerk idiots" and "etc. idiots" in my time, but this fellow i would like to have words with. 
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<instance id="sci.med59511">
<answer instance="sci.med59511" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 if the student has a kidney infection, she ought to be on antibiotics. kidney infections-- left untreated-- can cause permanent damage to the kidneys. i was hospitalized with a kidney infection a while ago and i was very sick. also, she is told that thre are 300! surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so. it is now april... she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids. but she has to go to classes. she wonders why they have given her no medicine. she plans to 
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<instance id="sci.med59512">
<answer instance="sci.med59512" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 can't imagine what it's like to have a penis, much less a foreskin. i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male, then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance... the penile cancer thing has been *completely* debunked...she must be going to school on a south pacific island. tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles. i remember at least 1 on an old jewish man (cut at birth) who developed penile cancer....i mean, if the cancer risk was that great, the europe who have been circumcising like crazy, too. teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue: a little proper hygiene goes a long way - americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it: that's just way too much like mastubation. so you have surgical intervention that is basically peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana-champaign first off, use some decent terms if ya don't mind. this is sci.med, not alt.sex. secondly, how absolutely bogus to assume that "american's are just too hung up on the penis....blah,blah". i think most american's don't care about anything so comlicated as that. they just think it "looks nicer". ask a few of them and see what response you get. others still opt for circumcision due to religious traditions and beliefs. some think it is easier to clean. still others do it because "daddy was". dont' be so naive as to think american's are afraid of sexuality. my son is not circumcised, and i can vouch for the argument that it is more difficult to keep clean than a circumcised kids'. not so much that the foreskin is difficult to pull back (it isn't) but because my son doesn't want to wait long enough for a thorough check for smega or misplaced feces. so, many times it just gets a once over dab. it worries me that he might get an infection due to his lack of cooperation. i am sure, however, that he will be able to handle cleaning under the foreskin himself once he is old enough. until, there is always the decision at each diaper change...is this the time to clean or can we wait till next 
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<instance id="sci.med59513">
<answer instance="sci.med59513" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 if anyone has any information on this deficiency i would very greatly appreciate a response here or preferably by email. all i know at this point is a deficiency can cause myoglobin to be released, and in times of stress and high ambient temperature could cause renal failure. 
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<instance id="sci.med59514">
<answer instance="sci.med59514" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 -| in article <c65oil.436@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> -| okay. name one single effect that kirlian photography gives that -| can't be explained by corona discharge. dozens of very funny postings to sci.image.processing [of which this may not be one :-]. ata <(|)> 
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<instance id="sci.med59516">
<answer instance="sci.med59516" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 there is no data to show chromium is effective in promoting weight loss. the few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher ently biased (the investigators were making money from marketing it). theoretically it really doesnt make sense either. the claim is that chromium will increase muscle mass and decrease fat. of course, chromium is also used t o cure diabetes, high blood pressure and increase muscle mass in athletes(just as well as anabolic steroids). sounds like snake oil for the 1990's :-) on the other hand, it really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet, and place bo effects of anything can be pretty dramatic... | paul sovcik, pharm.d. u of illinois college of pharmacy | | email- u18183@uicvm.uic.edu | 
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<instance id="sci.med59517">
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 in <fauk03m6d0kq00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, dated 29 apr 93 15:43:10 gmt, what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax? should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it, or should you clean it out every so often? can cleaning it out damage your eardrums? are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked? assuming that the wax is causing hearing loss, congestion or popping in the ears, you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with a bulb syringe, but it is awkward to do for oneself and may not work or may even make things worse. (my wife would disagree, she does it successfully every six months or so.) in any case do not attempt anything with q-tips!!! i'll agree with your wife. while i was a student, i had doctors remove rather surprising amounts of wax from my ears by flushing them out a couple times, usually because they were examining my ears for some other reason, and said something like "gee, you've got a lot of wax in there". in my case, removal of these large wax buildups did noticeably improve my hearing, and i've since gotten in the same habit as your wife of flushing them out with warm water from a little rubber bulb every few months. you can buy little bulbs together with ear drops for this express purpose from the drug store - i don't notice that the drops accomplish much of anything. one question i do have - a doctor who flushed out my ears once also advocated a drop of rubbing alcohol in them afterwards to flush out any remaining trapped water - said he told swimmers to do this after swimming, too. it works, but it stings like the devil, so i've always been content to let any water in my ears from swimming or flushing them out figure out how to get out by itself if shaking my head a few times won't do the trick. any 
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<instance id="sci.med59520">
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 anp is secreted by the atria in response to increases in fluid volume and acts to facilitate sodium and water excretion from the kidneys. can someone tell me the molecular mechanism by which this is done? please email your response po'g mo thon 
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<instance id="sci.med59522">
<answer instance="sci.med59522" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 biological alchemy ( another form of cold fusion ) ( alternative heavy element creation in universe ) a very simple experiment can demonstrate (prove) the fact of "biological transmutations" (reactions like mg + o --> ca, si + c --> ca, k + h --> ca, n2 --> co, etc.), as described in the book "biological transmutations" by louis kervran, [1972 edition is best.], and in chapter 17 of the book "the secret life of plants" by peter tompkins and christopher bird, 1973: (1) obtain a good sample of plant seeds, all of the same kind. [some kinds might work better that others.] (2) divide the sample into two groups of equal weight and number. (3) sprout one group in distilled water on filter paper for three or four weeks. (4) separately incinerate both groups. (5) weigh the residue from each group. [the residue of the sprouted group will usually weigh at least several percent more than the other group.] (6) analyze quantitatively the residue of each group for mineral content. [some of the mineral atoms of the sprouted group have been transmuted into heavier mineral elements by fusing with atoms of oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc..] biological transmutations occur routinely, even in our own bodies. ingesting a source of organic silicon (silicon with carbon, such as "horsetail" extract, or radishes) can speed healing of broken bones via the reaction si + c --> ca, (much faster than by merely ingesting the calcium directly). some mineral deposits in the ground are formed by micro- organisms fusing together atoms of silicon, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, etc.. the two reactions si + c <--> ca, by micro-organisms, cause "stone sickness" in statues, building bricks, etc.. the reaction n2 --> co, catalysed by very hot iron, creates a carbon-monoxide poison hazard for welder operators and people near woodstoves (even properly sealed ones). some bacteria can even neutralize radioactivity! all of these things and more happen, in spite of the currently accepted "laws" of physics, (including the law which says that atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures and pressures.) "biological transmutations, and their applications in chemistry, physics, biology, ecology, medicine, nutrition, agrigulture, geology", 1st edition, by c. louis kervran, active member of new york academy of 163 pages, illustrated, swan house publishing co., p.o. box 638, binghamton, ny 13902 "the secret life of plants", by peter tompkins and christopher bird, 402 pages, harper & row, new york [chapters 19 and 20 are about "radionics". entire book is fascinating! ] for more information, answers to your questions, etc., please consult my cited sources (the two books). un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine b.s., physics and astronomy, uw-ec 
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<instance id="sci.med59523">
<answer instance="sci.med59523" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 it just received fda approval a few months ago. i have a prescription which i haven't had to use yet. i believe the company [glaxol] is developing an oral form. at this stage, one must inject the drug into one's muscle. the doctor said that within 30 minutes, the migraine is gone for good! 
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<instance id="sci.med59524">
<answer instance="sci.med59524" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i cured mine with bag balm which i bought at the local farm supply store. it is relatively cheap and works in a few days. the product was developed to treat sore udders. 
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<instance id="sci.med59525">
<answer instance="sci.med59525" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 does anyone know of any studies done on the long-term health effects of a man's vasectomy on his female partner? i've seen plenty of study results about vasectomy's effects on men's health, but what about women? for example, might the wife of a vasectomized man become more at risk for, say, cervical cancer? adverse effects from sperm antibodies? changes in the vagina's ph? yeast or bacterial infections? outside of study results, how about informed speculation? i've heard of no studies, but speculation: why on _earth_ would there be any effect on women's health? that's about the most absurd idea i've heard since ted kaldis's claim that no more than 35,000 people would march on washington. ok, _one_ point: greatly reduced chance of pregnancy. but that's it. --josh 
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<instance id="sci.med59527">
<answer instance="sci.med59527" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 ...i'm not asking anyone here to buy into "the yeast connection" book because i don't know what's in that book, plain and simple. and to be honest with you, i'm beginning to wish that it was never written. i agree with this consensus that it should not have been written the way it was. my doctor - who claims to have introduced dr. crook to the possibility of candida overbloom causing diffuse symptoms way back in 1961 (i have no reason to doubt him on this) - does not like the book because 1) it makes too many unfounded claims, and 2) is horribly written from a scientific viewpoint. on the other hand, my doctor has always kept an open mind on the subject and does believe in aspects of the "yeast connection". but, i believe there is some truth to the book. hopefully the right clinical studies can be done to separate the fact from the fiction. in the meantime, i'd still encourage people who have "incurable" chronic sinus problems (especially if they overused antibiotics), to find a doctor to administer a systemic-type anti-fungal such as itraconazole (along with liver panels before, during and after treatment just to play it safe). it is an empirical approach for sure, but when all else fails, and your ent says "sorry, you'll just have to live with it", it is time to step out and try an empirical approach backed up with significant anecdotal evidence (dr. ivker), supported by plausible theories (outlined by marty). at this stage you have little to lose, particularly if you use itraconazole and have the proper monitoring - the health risk has been shown through extensive clinical studies both in europe and the u.s. to be very minimal with relatively healthy (i.e., non-aids) patients. i'm glad i did this, since i saw remarkable results after only one week on sporanox (itraconazole). of course, your mileage may vary a lot - everyone is different so it may not work for you. talk to your doctor. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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<instance id="sci.med59528">
<answer instance="sci.med59528" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my mother has been advised to have a bone scan performed? what is this procedure for, and is it painful? she's been having leg and back pain which her gp said was sciatica. her oncologist listened to her symptoms and said that it didn't sound like sciatica, and she should get a bone do i assume correctly from the above aricle that your mother has a historyy of cancer? i was just wondeing, since you mentioned thhat she has an a bone scan is a nuclear scan. thperson receivving the scan is gven a dose of a radioactive tracer, and an imaging device is used to track the distribution of the tracer wwithin the body. the tracer is usually given intravenously. (iv) this means that the physician or his assistant will insert a needle into a vein and inject medicine into the vein. after a few minutes has passed for the tracer to circulate through the body, the person is scanned with an imaging device to detect high concentrations of the tracer. the radiologist or doctor is looking for areas that take up more of the radioactive tracer or less of it. as far as pain, the only pain comes from the needle stick that is required to start the iv line. what the doctor is probably looking for are changes in the bones that may have resulted from cancer. this is also why i was wondering if your mother has had cancer, since cancer can spread from one site and wind up in the skeletal system. i hope i have answered some of your questions. feel free to e-mail me if you have more questions related to the bone scan or anything else related to your mother's care. i'm a newly graduated nurse, and i enjoy sharing information with other people to help them understand things that they did not know about before. my thoughts are with you both. elisa b. hanson (picl25@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu) "the chief function of the body is to carry the head around." --albert einstein 
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<instance id="sci.med59529">
<answer instance="sci.med59529" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 for a very long time i've had a problem with feeling really awful when i try to get up in the morning. my sleep latency at night is also pretty long, ranging from 30 min to an hour. i get about 7 hours of bedtime (maybe 6 of actual sleep) a night and more on the weekends. i will spend two or three hours laying in bed after this if i can, because i feel so tired when i wake up, even more tired than i was when i went to bed, which is usually too tired to work. anyway, i recently had a really bad flu, so i called a friend to get me some cough syrup with both an expectorant and a nasal decongestant; but he got vicks formula 44m which has everything but an expectorant. so i used that anyway, and the three nights i used it, i fell asleep rapidly and felt that i got really good quality sleep -- that is, i actually felt refreshed the next morning. so, i am now trying to look into, both in the literature and experimentally, the use of antihistamines as sleep aids, since i am presuming that it was the antihistamine that caused the effect. the antihistamine in vicks formula 44 is chloriphenamine maleate, so i bought some generic tablets of that, and tried one last night and didn't notice any improvement. i might try one with a little alcohol (about 1 beer) to see if it is a synergism effect. also, library research seems to show that benadryl is the antihistamine with the strongest sedative effect of what is availible otc. so i might also buy a generic form of that and try that; the pdr seems to suggest that 50 mg is a good dosage level to try. for other medical information, i have allergies but rarely have an allergic reaction living in new mexico. i also have chronically dry eyes, which get horrible if i try to use most underarm deoderants. i did guess that my problem might be caused by hypoglycemia, so i made some changes in my diet consistent with that, and it didn't help, so i went back to a normal diet (pretty diverse, also taking vitamin supplements) anyway, i am looking for advice for the use of antihistamines as sleep aids, and if there are any dangers of such use (seems safe to me since they are used chronically for allergies by millions). i don't want to try bzs, because bz addiction seems to be a serious threat, and from what i hear, bz sleep quality is not good, whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems to be better for me. i have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff, and that also seems to lower sleep quality, i seem to wake up around 4:00 or so and be in some kind of mental haze until 7:00 or 8:00. also, i would be interested in any other advice for helping my problem. (although i've already tried many of the non-pharmacological solutions) 
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<instance id="sci.med59533">
<answer instance="sci.med59533" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm interested in this from the other angle: what antihistamine can i take at bedtime for relief of allergies, with the assurance that its sedative effect will have completely worn off by the next morning, but preferably with the anti-allergy effect lasting longer? i'm thinking mainly of otc products. which has the least duration of sedative action: benadryl, chlor-trimeton, or what? note that i'm asking about duration, not intensity. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="sci.med59537">
<answer instance="sci.med59537" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 first off, if i'm not mistaken, only hibernating animals have brown fat, not humans. human infants do have bown fat deposits while adult humans are believed not to have brown fat. also while brown fat may play an important role in rousing hibernators, it is definitely not limited to hibernating animals -- it is a common energy source for nonshivering thermogenesis. edwin barkdoll barkdoll@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu eb3@world.std.com 
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<instance id="sci.med59538">
<answer instance="sci.med59538" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 hi all, my skin is very dry in general. but the most serious part is located from knees down. the skin there looks like segmented. the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin. i would like to know if there is any cure for this. at the supermarkets or pharmacies, there are quite a lot of stuffs for dry skins, but what to chose? thanks in advance for all advices and hints. reply by email preferred. as a matter of fact, i just saw a dermatologist the other day, and while i was there, i asked him about dry skin. i'd been spending a small fortune on various creams, lotions, and other dry skin treatments. he said all i needed was a large jar of vaseline. soak in a lukewarm tub of water for 10 minutes (only 10 minutes!) then massage in the vaseline, to trap the moisture in. that will help. i haven't tried it yet, but you can bet i will. the hard part will be finding the time to rub in the vaseline properly. if it's not done right, you remain greasy and stick to your clothes. try it. it's got to be cheaper then spending $30 for 8 oz. of 'natural' 
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<instance id="sci.med59541">
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 |one question i do have - a doctor who flushed out my ears once also advocated |a drop of rubbing alcohol in them afterwards to flush out any remaining |trapped water - said he told swimmers to do this after swimming, too. it |works, but it stings like the devil, so i've always been content to let any |water in my ears from swimming or flushing them out figure out how to get |out by itself if shaking my head a few times won't do the trick. any |comments? when i have trouble it's usually because of water trapped by some remaining wax. i don't see why you can't just let it evaporate; it should do this eventually. /j nets: levin@bbn.com | "earn more sessions by sleeving." pots: (617)873-3463 | n1mnf | -- roxanne kowalski 
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<instance id="sci.med59544">
<answer instance="sci.med59544" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 my wife has aquired some thyroidal (sp?) deficiency over the past year that gives symptoms such as needing much sleep, coldness and proneness to gaining weight. she has been to a doctor and taken the ordinary (?) tests and her values were regarded as low. the doctor (and my wife) are not very interested in starting medication as this "deactivates" the gland, giving life-long dependency to the drug (hormone?). the last couple of monthes she has been seeing a hoemoepath (sp?) and been given some drops to re-activate either her thyroidal gland and/or the 'message-center' in the brain (sorry about the approximate language, but i haven't got many clues to what the english terms are, but the brain-area is called the 'hypofyse' in norwegian.) my questions are: has anyone had/heard of success in using this approach? her values have been (slowly but) steadily sinking, any comment on the probability of improvement? although the doctor has told her to 'eat normally', my wife has dieted vigorously to keep her weight as she feels that is part of keeping an edge over the illness/condition, may this affect the treatment, development? i can get the exact figures for her tests for anyone interested, and i will greatly value any information/opinion/experience on this topic. i don't intend this post to be either a flaming of the established medical profession or a praise for alternatives, i am just relaying events as they have happened. erik a. wolff 
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<instance id="sci.med59548">
<answer instance="sci.med59548" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i'm *so* glad that you posted your biological alchemy discussion. i've been compared to the famous robert mcelwaine by some readers of sci. med. i didn't know how to respond since i had not seen one of your posts(just like i haven't read "the yeast connection"). let me just start by stating that the authors of the "cold fusion" papers of recent years are now in scientific exile(i believe that one has actually left the country). scientific fraud is rare. i'm still not sure that if a review of the research notes of the "cold fusion scientists" actually proved fraud or just very shoddy experimentation. your sources do not seem to be research articles. they are more like lay texts designed to pique human interest in a subject area(just like the food combining and life extension texts). robert, i try to keep an open mind. but some things i just can't buy(one is taking sod orally to prevent oxidative damage in the body). your experiment, if conducted by readers of this news group, would prove that you are right(more ash after seed sprouting than before). unless you use a muffle furnance and obtain a very high temperature(above 600 degrees i believe), you will get organic residue in the ash. even the residue in commercial incinerators contains organic residue. i remember doing this kind of experiment in my organic chemistry couurse in college but i couldn't find a temperature for mineral ash formation so i'm really guessing at 600 degrees f, it may actually be much higher. the point is that no one in their home could ever get a high enough temperature to produce *only* a mineral ash. they also could not measure the minerals so they could only weigh the ash and find out that you appear to be correct. chemical reactions abound in our body, in our atmosphere, in our water and in our soil. are these fusion reactions? yes many of them do involve fusing oxygen, nitrogen and sulfur to both organics and inorganics. do we really have the transformation of silicone to calcium if carbon is fused with silicon? not in my book robert. silicon is the most abundant mineral on our planet. i've seen speculation that man could have evolved to be a silicon based rather than a carbon based life-form. i like reading science fiction, as many people do. but i know enough about biochemistry(and nutrition) to be able(in most cases) to separate the fiction from the fact. silicon may be one of the trace elements that turns out to be essential in humans. we have several grams of the stuff in our body. what's it doing there? only the lord knows right now. but i will tell you what i do know about silicon and why, as you state, it helps bone healing(and it is not because silicon is transformed into calcium). almost all of the silicon in the human body is found in the connective tissue(collagen and elastin). there have been studies published which show that the very high silicon content in elastin may be an important protective factor against atherosclerosis(the higher the silicon content in elastin, the more resistant the elastin is to a an age-related loss of elasticity which may play a role in the increase in blood pressure that is often seen as part of the ageing process in humans). for bone fracture healing, the first step is a collagen matrix into which calcium and phosphate are pumped by osteoblasts. a high level of silicon in the diet seems to speed up this matrix formation. this first step in the bone healing process seems to be the hardest for some people to get going. electriacl currents have been used in an attempt to get the matrix forming cells oriented in the right direction so that the matrix can be formed in the gap(or gaps) between the ends of the broken bone. a vitamin c deficiency (by slowing collagen formation as well as causing the prodcution of defective collagen) does slow down both bone and wound healing. zinc is also another big player in bone and wound healing. and so is silicon(in an undetermined role that most likely involes matrix formation and not transformation of silicon to calcium). for you to take this bone healing observation and use it as proof that silicon is transformed into calcium is an interesting little trick. but robert, i have the same problem myself when i read the lay press(and yes even some scientific papers). is the explanation reasonable? without a very good science knowledge base, you and most readers of this news group are flying blind(you have to take it on faith because you don't know any better). if the explanation seems to make sense to me based on my knowledge base, i'm inclined to consider it(this usually means trying to find other sources that come to the same conclusion). if the idea(like a candida bloom) seems to make sense to me, i tend to pursue it as long as any advice that i'm going to give isn't going to really mess somebody up. if this makes us kindred souls robert, then i guess i'll have to live with that label. for the physicians who have decided to read my response to robert's interesting post, i hope that you saw the segment on the pediatric neurosurgeon last night on u.s. tv. i can't remember the network or his name(like many nights, i was on my computer and my wife was watching tv in our den where i have my computer setup). this neurosurgeon takes kids with brain tumors that everyone else has given up on and he uses"unconventional" treatments(his own words). he says that he has a 70% success rate. the one case that i heard him discussing would normally use radiation(conventional treatment). he was going to go in and cut. you guys complain about the cost of the anti-fungals. what do you think the cost difference between radiation treatment and surgery is guys? i'm going to ask you guys one more time, why blast a physician who takes the chronic sinus sufferer(like jon) and the chronic gi sufferer(like elaine) and tries to help them using unconventional treatments? treatments which do not result in death(like those that the neurosurgeon uses?). is it because candida blooms are not life-threatening while brain tumors are? how about quality of life guys? may the candida demon never cross your sinus cavity or gut(if it does, you may feel differently about the issue). marty b. 
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 does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer/toner of laser printers? what chemical stuff is involved? mainly carbon dust with iron in a plastic binder that is melted on to the paper. same stuff as dry paper photocopiers. allergies? haven't heard of any, but anything's possible with allergies ;-) kay klier biology dept uni 
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 i've sent gordon r. my posts on protein, vitamin c and vitamin a prior to posting on internet as a professional courtesy. somehow i've managed to delete my vitamin a post from my text file. gordon r. had promised to send it back to me but he's pretty mad at me right now so i'll just retype it. since digging through all my references is very time consuming(took me all day for that pms post), i'm not going to cite any references(gordon r. has them). i'm going to include some of the material from weinsier and morgan's new nutrition textbook(which was not in my original material) to point out that what i'm going to say has some support in the medical diet has been know to affect the immune system of man for a very, very long time. protein has always had the biggest role in infection and i've already covered the role of protein in protecting you against infection. now i'm going to hit what i consider to be the most important nutrient in the u.s. as far as infection is concerned(vitamin a). when vitamin a was originally discovered, it was commonly referred to as the anti-infection vitamin. many people(linus pauling being one) have decided to take this title away from vitamin a and give it to vitamin c (which i've already covered). big mistake(in my opinion). vitamin a is also getting a reputation as an anti-cancer vitamin(with good reason). the nci currently has numerous clinical trials in progress to see if vitamin a can not only prevent cancer but cure it as well. it's role in both cancer and infection is almost identical(but not quite). vitamin a comes in two completely different forms(retinol and beta-carotene). retinol is the animal form and it's toxic, beta-carotene is the plant form and it's completely nontoxic. both retinol and beta- carotene display good absorption in the human gut if bile is present (60-80%). the liver stores all of your retinol and doles it out for other tissues to use by synthesizing retinol binding protein(rbp). a normal human adult liver should have 500,000iu to 1,000,000iu of retinol stored. we are born with 10,000iu in our liver. u.s. autopsy has shown that about 30% of americans die with the same(or less) amount of vitamin a as they were born with. if you don't believe that nutritional reserves(like that of retinol in the liver) are important, then this low vitamin a reserve is not going to affect you. but if you believe(like i do) that the nutrient reserves are important, then there is a problem with vitamin a in the u.s. the u.s. rda for vitamin a in an adult male is 1,000 re or 5,000iu of vitamin a. for adult feamles its 800 re or 4,000iu of vitamin a. diet surveys show that most americans are getting this amount of vitamin a (either retinol or beta-carotene) from their diet. but the nrc(national research council) was going to release a new rda table in 1985 that had the rda for both vitamin a and vitamin c raised(c to 90mg per day and a to 7,500iu per day for adult males). that report and it's recommendations was killed. why? concern over the increasing supplementation was the main reason. rdas are set to prevent clinical disease, not to keep nutrient reserves full. many scientist in the u.s. feel that the time has come to move away from the prevention of clinical pathology concept and move towards the promotion of optimum health concept, especially since we have some very good data now that show that nutrient reserves are extremely important during periods of stress. the nutritonal concervatives won that battle and a new group of scientist were collected to come out with the 1989 rda list which lowered the rda for several nutrients and moved the dietary guidelines back to where they were when we first started in the 1940's(get enough to prevent clinical pathology, but not enough to fill the reserves). we know from autopsy that only about 10% of americans have a liver with a normal vitamin a reserve(500,000iu to 1,000,000iu). i preach nutrient reserves to my students and tell them to measure them in their patients. but for vitamin a, only a liver biopsy(or autopsy data) will tell you how much somebody has stored. we can tell very easily if someone has overfilled his or her liver with vitamin a by measuring the serium retinol level(levels above 450ug/dl are highly suggestive that you have filled your liver with vitamin a and it's time to stop taking retinol). the normal range of serum retinol will be 20-100ug/dl. hypervitaminosis a is diagnosed with a serum retinol level of 2,000ug/dl or higher(interpretation of diagnostic test, wallach, m.d., a little brown series book). this level of vitamin a in blood means that medical attention is necessary due to vitamin a toxicity. weinsier and morgan take a much more conservative approach to vitamin a toxicity than does wallach, as you will see later in this post. between 450ug/dl and 2,000ug/dl you should have plenty of warning that it's time to eliminate the retinol from your diet(headache, redness of the skin, hair loss, joint pain). i tell all my students that will use vitamin a in their practice that they had better monitor the serum retinol level and stop when there are clear signs that the liver is full. you will never really know if the patient needs the vitamin a(because you can not measure the pool in liver) but you will always know when it's time to stop(just like in those vitamin a for pms studies). beta-carotene can be taken to fill up your liver with retinol and you will never have to worry about toxicity because the conversion of beta-carotene to retinol that occurs in both your gut and your liver will slow down(stops in the liver and slows down in the gut) when your liver is full of retinol. but taking beta-carotene as the source of retinol takes a very long time to fill the liver up(i've seen estimates of 20-30 years) if you are in the 30% that only has as much as you were born with in your liver(10,000iu). one other problem with beta-carotene, if you have a zinc deficit, you will not convert as much beta-carotene to retinol in the gut or the liver because the enxzyme that does this conversion requires zinc. in addition, the release of retinol from the liver is a zinc dependent process so a zinc deficit will cause a vitamin a deficit even if your liver has plenty of vitamin a. now what does vitamin a do in cancer and infection protection? the body uses vitamin a(retinol) for many different things. vision(the first to be nailed down and where you see overt clinical pathology) uses the aldehyde (retinal) and alcohol(retinol) form of vitamin a. reproduction uses the retinol form and some retinal. infection and cancer protection uses retinoic acid. how do you convert retinol(which your white blood cells and the mucosal cells get from blood) to retinoic acid? you use enzymes, one of which requires vitamin c(this is why pauling has tried to pull the title of anti-infection vitamin away from vitamin a). vitamin c does play a role in infection(interferon production for example) but it's biggest role is the conversion of retinol to retinoic acid. if you increase your intake of vitamin c, you will increase your formation of retinoic acid. but retinoic acid can not be converted back to retinol(as retinal can) and once it's formed, it's used and then lost to the body. this is why the 1985 nrc group wanted to increase both vitamin c and vitamin a rda's. most people taking large amounts of vitamin c really think that they are helping themselves. if they don't have much vitamin a in their liver and they are not also increasing their intake of vitamin a, they actually do themselves more harm than good. retinoic acid functions in white blood cells to promote antibody formation. in the mucus membrane, it is the main factor in promoting good mucus production and a good epithelial cell barrier to prevent infectious agents from entering the blood system. the mucus membrane is referred to as the "first line" defense against infection. for cancer, retinoic acid has been shown to act as a cell brake(it counteracts the effect of cell promoters which stimulate cells to divide). cancer has two distinct steps, dna alteration and cell promotion. for cells that normally divide all the time, promoters are not that important. but for lung and breast tissue which does not normally divide, promoters are real important in the malignant process. this is the major reason why the nci has so many different clinical trials in progress using retinol and/or beta-carotene. chronic infection(irritation) of the mucus membranes is a signal that vitamin a may not be adequate. i tell my students that any patient who walks into their office with a complaint of chronic infection has to be worked up for vitamin a(along with the other factors that medicine already has on it's list of causes for chronic infection). i drive this home in my course at the osteopathic college in tulsa, when i teach at the allopathic medical school in tulsa(ou's branch campus) and when i give cme lectures. dark adaptation is the best clinical test for vitamin a status since night vision is impacted when liver reverves drop to 50,000iu of retinol. the serum level of retinol can also be used, but it does not drop until liver reserves drop below 10,000 to 20,000iu. asking a patient if they have trouble seeing at night is a good initial screen(if cataracts are ruled out). in one study done on u.s. spanish-americans where serum retinol levels were measured, 25% of the sample population had a serum retinol level below 20ug/dl. as more studies are done on serum retinol levels in population groups of the u.s. that have had a history of high infection rates, we will probably see a much stonger correlation between infection incidence rates and low serum retinol levels. what do weinsier and morgan have to say about vitamin a? here are excerpts from their book: vitamin a functions in vision in the forrm of retinol, it is necessay for growth and differentation of epithelial tissue, and is required for reproduction, embryonic development, and bone growth. protein-calorie malnutrition and zinc deficiency may impair the absorption, transport, and metabolism of vitamin a. retinaldehyde is converted to retinoic acid, which has biological activity in growth and in cell diferentiation but not in reproduction or vision. the most common procedure to evaluate vitamin a status is to measure the retinol level in plasma or serum. the normal range for vitamin a content for a child is 20 to 90ug/dl. lower values are indicators of deficiency or depleted body stores. serum levels greater than 100ug/dl are indicative of toxic levels of vitamin a. dark adaptation tests and electroretinogram measurements are also useful but difficult to perform on young children. rapidly proliferating tissues are sensitive to vitamin a deficiency and may revert to an undifferentiated state. the bronchorespiratory tract, skin, genitourinary system, gastrointestinal tract and sweat glands are adversely affected. a daily intake of more than 7.5mg(about 37,000iu) of retinol is not advised and chronic use of amounts over 20mg(100,000iu) can result in a dry and itching skin, desquamation, erythematous dermatitis, hair loss, joint pain, chapped lips, hyperostois (bony depositis), headaches, anorexia, edema and fatigue. they recommend 30mg of retinol via im injection in children for vitamin a deficiency but do not discuss treatment for adults. their toxic serum retinol level is very conservative. i recommend that my students try 25,000iu in adults that are having problems with chronic infection. they have to rule out a zinc deficit first by getting an rbc zinc run(or if their clinical lab can't run it, i tell them to do what weinsier and morgan suggest, give them the zinc along with the vitamin a. at 25,000iu per day, toxicity should not be a problem and you will not have to worry about pulling the patient into the office on a regular basis to run a serum retinol. both elaine and jon found doctors who used a much higher dose of vitamin a. recall that the pms papers were using 100,000iu to 200,000iu of vitamin a. i don't suggest that my students use these high doses. if you wanted to fill the liver up fast(as part of a clinical trial) and were monitoring the serum retinol level, then you would be okay. but my knowledge of the vitamin a literature suggests to me that 25,000iu for patients with a demonstrated vitamin a deficit(dark adapatation test or serum retinol) will provide a good and steady improvement(as long as zinc and vitamin c status are good) without having to worry about toxicity. if they want to get more agressive, fine if they follow my advise to check the serum retinol. but vitamin a(retinol) should never be given in high dose to women who could become pregnant since vitamin a shows teratogenicity towards the human fetus. the dose needed to show this effect on the developing fetus is 18,000iu of retinol per day. beta-carotene will never have this effect on the human fetus. could just taking beta-carotene instead of retinol supplements help? yes but the effect will take a long time to develop. my advise is to use retinol to fill the liver up and then switch to beta-carotene to keep it full. vitamin a is probably one nutrient that is better off left to prescription by doctors. but when we have the m.d.'s in this newsgroup jumping all over me and other doctors that propose the use of vitamin a supplements for treating patients with chronic sinus and gi distress, i think that the most prudent option is to keep vitamin a in the otc market but require manufactors to provide package inserts to educate the general public about the dangers of vitamin a supplementation. marty b. 
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 : does anyone know about these studies? or have experience with feverfew? i keep an accurate log of my migraine attack frequency; feverfew didn't seem to do anything for me. however, eliminating caffeine seems to pre- vent the onset of migraine in my case. in other words, no caffeine, no don montgomery donrm@sr.hp.com 
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 we need following data for human aorta: tear and shear stress for aorta. a plot of the aortic cross-sectional area. stroke-volume at the aortic root. approximate distribution of blood through the major arterial branches of the aorta. flow velocity of blood in aorta. we have various values for flow velocity, if you have any data remember to give us the references too include in our report stud. jakob hilmer fax: (+45) 45 93 34 34 hus 7.1 gr. 8a roskilde university, denmark postbox 260 dk-4000 roskilde 
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 she has been to a doctor and taken the ordinary (?) tests and her values were regarded as low. the doctor (and my wife) are not very interested in starting medication as this "deactivates" the gland, giving life-long dependency to the drug (hormone?). this is ridiculous, and your doctor sounds like a nut, if what is reported here is what the doctor actually said. if your wife's pancreas stops producing insulin and therefore becomes diabetic, she'll need insulin replacement. that doesn't mean she's "dependent" on insulin, anymore than she was beforehand--if her body doesn't make enough, she'll have to get it elsewhere. oral thyroid replacement hormone therapy is the cornerstone of treatment for hypothyroidism, and it's really the only effective therapy available anyway. plus, it's cheap. taking thyroid hormone when it isn't needed does cause your thyroid gland to reduce its own production of the hormone, but that's a _feature_, not a _bug_, and it's irrelevant in any case in the face of hypothyroidism, because her problem that her gland isn't producing enough. there isn't a clinical phenomenon of "thyroid insufficiency" caused by a sudden discontinuation of exogenous thyroid hormone analogous to adrenal insufficiency caused by the sudden cessation of prolonged administration of corticosteroids, so there should be no worry about inappropriately "suppressing" the thyroid gland. the last couple of monthes she has been seeing a hoemoepath (sp?) and been given some drops to re-activate either her thyroidal gland and/or the 'message-center' in the brain (sorry about the approximate language, but i haven't got many clues to what the english terms are, but the brain-area is called the 'hypofyse' in norwegian.) homeopathy is nonsense. tell her to stop wasting her money, health and time, and get her to a legitimate doctor who will be in a position to make a proper diagnosis and recommend the right therapy. steve dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer 
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 hi sci.med folks... i would like to know anything you folks can tell me regarding lithium. i have a 10 year old son that lives with my ex-wife. she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin, tofranil, and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion. i would like to know whatever is important that i should know. i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros/cons regarding lithium therapy. i have a booklet from the "lithium information center" based at the university of wisconsin, but feel that it is pro-lithium and would be interested in comments from the "not necessarily pro" side of the fence. i am a concerned father and just wish to be well informed... thanks for any information you can provide. please email me directly... /\ george a. perkins \\ \ systems engineer \ \\ / sun microsystems computer corporation / \/ / / 6200 courtney campbell causeway / / \//\ suite 840 \//\ / / tampa, fl 33607 / \\ \ phone: (813) 289-7228 \ \\ fax: (813) 281-0219 \/ email: george.perkins@east.sun.com 
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 as a matter of fact, i just saw a dermatologist the other day, and while i seeing a dermatologist sounds like a very good idea if you are worried about your dry skin. don mackie - his opinions 
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 friend's unpleasant experience uring ct scan deleted is there anything i can do about these pigs ? i'd suggest writing a detailed letter about the incident to the hospital administrator. specify the date and time. if possible the names of the technicians. send a copy to the clinician under whose care your friend was admitted. i say this because, though your friend has no argument with the doctor, i have found that administrators sometimes ignore complaints until the patient becomes litigious. clinicians may not have been informed of the complaint and are very surprised to find themselves named in a suit. if there is no response within a week send a follow up letter. attach a photocopy of the original letter. do this weekly until you do get a response. cat scans are non-invasive but they can be very scary. the scanner can be a bad place for the claustrophobic. there was an interesting study in the bmj, about 10 years ago, which found that around 10% of people who had cat scans found it so unpleasant that they would never have another. this compares with 15% who said the same about a lumbar puncture. don mackie - his opinions 
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 i heard a news report indicating research showing improved hearing in people taking vitamin a. the research showed that new growth replaced damaged "hairlike" nerves. has anyone heard about claude bowie | voice: (901)797-6332 federal express corp | fax: (901)797-6388 box 727-2891, memphis, tn 38194 | email: claude@banana.fedex.com 
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 i originally posted this to alt.suicide.holiday but it was recommended that i try you guys instead: my friend insists that ny-quil can be deadly if enough is taken -- he suggested something like 20-30 of the night-time gelcaps would do someone in. being a normal user of ny-quil :), i checked the 'ingredients' and have a very hard time believing it. they are: 250 g acetaminophen 30 mg pseudoephedrine hcl 10 mg dextromethorphan hbr 6.25 mg doxylamine succinate (per softgel) can someone settle our bet (a package of ny-quil of course :) -- what effect would 20-30 of these babies have? *-nathan-* | inter arma silent leges | | "worship ditka now." email: bitn@midway.uchicago.edu | |______________________________________________________________________| 
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 thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness, coldness, and weight gain. there is also water retention (possibly around heart), changes in vision, and coarser hair and skin among other things. is there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression? 
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 how is it that placebos are legal? it would seem to me that if, as a patient, you purchase a drug you've been prescribed and it's just sugar (or whatever), there's a few legal complications that arise: if you have been diagnosed with a condition and you aren't given accepted treatment for it, it seems like intentional medical malpractice. a placebo is an accepted treatment at times. a placebo should fall, legally, under the label of quackery (why not?) why should it? placebos are effective under certain circumstances. that's why they're used. actually, i don't know know anyone who has actually gotten a "sugar pill". i don't know how it could be done, since prescription drugs are always labeled, and it's easy enough to find out what's in a pill if you have the it's more common to prescribe a drug which is effective for something, just not for what you have. antibiotics for viral infections are the most common such placebo. getting what you pay for. (deceptive "bait and switch" to an extreme...). false advertising (what if mcdonalds didn't put 100% pure beef in their hamburgers?) i'm not sure what you mean by this. what do you think you're paying for? you're not entitled to a prescription drug just because you pay for a doctor's appointment. jack hamilton kd6ttl jfh@netcom.com po box 281107 sf, ca 94128 usa 
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 i heard a news report indicating research showing improved hearing in people taking vitamin a. the research showed that new growth replaced damaged "hairlike" nerves. has anyone heard about claude, i've not heard or read anything that would suggest that vitamin a( retinol) could reverse hearing loss due to nerve damage(usually caused by high sound levels, but also occassionally due to severe infection). the types of cells that vitamin a regulates are the general epithelial cells and these cell types are not the ones that function in the ear hearing process. the hair cell nerve-like epithelial cells in the ear may respond to vitamin a during cellular differentiation(embryogenesis) but i don't know if they are still capable of responding in adults. if they are capable of responding with new hair growth, this would be a very major breakthrough in hearing loss. with all of the medical interest in vitamin a, it would not be too surprising if a clinical study was done using vitamin a to reverse hearing loss. but with only a news announcement to go on(and this type of communication is notoriously bad), i can't comment on your question anymore than i already have. if one study has been done, more will need to follow to firm up a link between vitamin a and hearing loss if there really is one. marty b. 
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 voting for creation of the newsgroup misc.health.diabetes ended at 23:59 gmt on 29 apr 93. at this time, the total response received consisted of 155 votes for newsgroup creation and 14 votes against newsgroup creation. under the guidelines for usenet group creation, this response constitutes a passing vote. there will be a delay to allow time for the net to respond to this result, after which the newsgroup misc.health.diabetes should be please check the vote acknowledgement list to be sure that your vote was received and properly credited. any inconsistencies or errors should be reported to swkirch@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil by email. i want to thank everyone who participated in the discussion and vote for this newsgroup proposal. the following is the voting summary: votes received against newsgroup creation: cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu ernest a. cline coleman@twin.twinsun.com mike coleman ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu eric j. olson elharo@shiva.njit.edu elliotte rusty harold emcguire@intellection.com ed mcguire hansenr@ohsu.edu hmpetro@mosaic.uncc.edu herbert m. petro jjmorris@gandalf.rutgers.edu joyce morris julian@bongo.tele.com julian macassey knauer@cs.uiuc.edu rob knauerhase lau@ai.sri.com stephen lau macridis_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz gerry macridis owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu bill owens rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu richard h. miller votes received for newsgroup creation: 9781bmu@vms.csd.mu.edu bill satterlee a2wj@loki.cc.pdx.edu jim williams ac534@freenet.carleton.ca colin henein ad@cat.de axel dunkel al198723@academ07.mty.itesm.mx jesus sanchez pe~a andrea@unity.ncsu.edu anugula@badlands.nodak.edu ramakrishna reddy anugula apps@sneaks.kodak.com robert w. apps arperd00@mik.uky.edu alicia r. perdue baind@gov.on.ca dave bain balamut@morris.hac.com morris balamut bch@juliet.caltech.edu bryan hathorn bernsteinn@lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil norman p. bernstein bgaines@ollamh.ucd.ie brian gaines bgeer@beorn.sim.es.com bob geer bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no bjorn b. larsen bobw@hpsadwc.sad.hp.com bob waltenspiel bock@vsikp0.uni-muenster.de dirk bock bruce@uxb.liverpool.ac.uk bruce stephens bspencer@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca brian spencer claudia@lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil claudia servadio-coyne compass-da.com!tomd@compass-da.com thomas donnelly constabiled@lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil diane constabile csc@coast.ucsd.edu charles coughran curtech!sbs@unh.edu stephanie bradley-swift debrum#m#_brenda@msgate.corp.apple.com brenda debrum dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com david barton dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu deborah lynn gillaspie dougb@comm.mot.com douglas bank drs@sunsrvr3.cci.com dale r. seim dt4%cs@hub.ucsb.edu david e. goggin ed@titipu.resun.com edward reid edmoore@hpvclc.vcd.hp.com ed moore emilio@accurate.com elizabeth milio ewc@hplb.hpl.hp.com enrico coiera "feathr::bluejay"@ampakz.enet.dec.com franklig@gas.uug.arizona.edu gregory c. franklin fsspr@acad3.alaska.edu gabe@angus.mi.org gabe helou gasp@medg.lcs.mit.edu isaac kohane gavin@praxis.co.uk gavin finnie geir.millstein@tf.tele.no geir millstein ggurman@cory.berkeley.edu gail gurman ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us gregory g. woodbury gmalet@surfer.win.net gary malet gonzalez@suhep.phy.syr.edu gabriela gonzalez greenlaw@oasys.dt.navy.mil leila thomas grm+@andrew.cmu.edu gretchen miller halderc@cs.rpi.edu carol halder handelap%duvm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu phil handel hc@nyongwa.cam.org heddings@chrisco.nrl.navy.mil hubert heddings herbison@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com hosch2263@iscsvax.uni.edu kathleen hosch hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu herman rubin hudsoib@auducadm.duc.auburn.edu ingrid b. hudson huff@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu edward j. huff huffman@ingres.com gary huffman huynh_1@estd.nrl.navy.mil minh huynh ishbeld@cix.compulink.co.uk ishbel donkin james.langdell@eng.sun.com james langdell jamie@ssd.intel.com jamie weisbrod jamyers@netcom.com john a. myers jc@crosfield.co.uk jerry cullingford jcobbe@garnet.acns.fsu.edu james cobbe jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com randell jesup joannm@hpcc01.corp.hp.com joann mcgowan joep@dap.csiro.au joe petranovic john.burton@acenet.auburn.edu john e. burton, jr. johncha@comm.mot.com jorgensonke@cc.uvcc.edu keith jorgenson jpsum00@mik.uky.edu joey p. sum jtm@ucsfvm.ucsf.edu john maynard julien@skcla.monsanto.com kaminski@netcom.com peter kaminski kerry@citr.uq.oz.au kerry raymond kieran@world.std.com aaron l. dickey kolar@spot.colorado.edu jennifer lynn kolar kriguer@tcs.com marc kriguer laurie@lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil laurie j. key lee@hal.com lee boylan lmt6@po.cwru.edu lia m. treffman lunie@lehigh.edu lusgr@chili.cc.lehigh.edu stephen g. roseman m.beamish@ins.gu.edu.au marilyn beamish m.rich@ens.gu.edu.au maurice h. rich maas@cdfsga.fnal.gov peter maas marilyn@lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil marilyn m. tucker markv@hpvcivm.vcd.hp.com mark vanderford maschler@vms.huji.ac.il michael maschler mcb@net.bio.net michael c. berch mcday@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu marrianne c. day mcookson@flute.calpoly.edu melynda@titipu.resun.com melynda reid mfc@isr.harvard.edu mauricio f. contreras mg@wpi.edu martha gunnarson mhollowa@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu michael holloway misha@abacus.concordia.ca misha glouberman mjb@cs.brown.edu manish butte moflngan@vax1.tcd.ie margaret o' flanagan muir@idiom.berkeley.ca.us david muir sharnoff n.d.treby@southampton.ac.uk n. d. treby n.j.c.hookey@durham.ac.uk n. j. c. hookey nancy.block@eng.sun.com nancy block ndallen@r-node.hub.org nigel allen nlemur@eecs.umich.edu nigel lemur nlr@b31.nei.nih.gov nathan rohrer pams@hpfcmp.fc.hp.com pam sullivan papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca paul prescod paslowp@cs.rpi.edu pam paslow phil@unet.umn.edu phil lindberg pillinc@gov.on.ca christopher pilling pkane@cisco.com peter kane pmmuggli@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu pauline muggli popelka@odysseus.uchicago.edu glenn popelka pulkka@cs.washington.edu aaron pulkka pwatkins@med.unc.edu pat watkins rbnsn@mosaic.shearson.com ken robinson rmasten@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu roger masten robyn@media.mit.edu robyn kozierok rolf@green.mathematik.uni-stuttgart.de rolf schreiber sageman@cup.portal.com sasjcs@unx.sas.com joan stout sca@space.physics.uiowa.edu scott allendorf scottjor@delphi.com scrl@hplb.hpl.hp.com scs@vectis.demon.co.uk stuart c. squibb shan@techops.cray.com sharan kalwani sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com sharen a. rund shazam@unh.edu matthew t. thompson shipman@csab.larc.nasa.gov floyd s. shipman shoppa@erin.caltech.edu tim shoppa sjsmith@cs.umd.edu stephen joseph smith slillie@cs1.bradley.edu susan lillie steveo@world.std.com steven w. orr surendar@ivy.wpi.edu surendar chandra swkirch@sun6850.nrl.navy.mil steven kirchoefer s_fagan@twu.edu liz fagan taryn@arizvm1.ccit.arizona.edu taryn l. westergaard thomas.e.taylor@gagme.chi.il.us thomas e. taylor tima@cfsmo.honeywell.com timothy d. aanerud tsamuel%gollum@relay.nswc.navy.mil tony samuel u45301@uicvm.uic.edu mary jacobs vstern@gte.com vanessa stern wahlgren@haida.van.wti.com james wahlgren waldref@tv.tv.tek.com greg waldref waterfal@pyrsea.sea.pyramid.com douglas waterfall weineja1@teomail.jhuapl.edu wgrant@informix.com william grant wingb@underdale.unisa.edu.au brian wing yeager@mscf.med.upenn.edu yozzo@watson.ibm.com ralph e. yozzo ysharma@yamuna.b11.ingr.com yamuna sharma z919016@beach.utmb.edu molly hamilton zulu@iesd.auc.dk bjoern u. gregersen the charter for misc.health.diabetes appears below. charter: misc.health.diabetes unmoderated 1. the purpose of misc.health.diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management, i.e.: diet, activities, medicine schedules, blood glucose control, exercise, medical breakthroughs, etc. this group addresses the issues of management of both type i (insulin dependent) and type ii (non-insulin dependent) diabetes. both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome. 2. postings to misc.heath.diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only, and are in no way to be construed as medical advice. diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician. -----(end of charter)----- steve kirchoefer (202) 767-2862 code 6851 kirchoefer@estd.nrl.navy.mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington, dc 20375-5000 electronics sci. and tech. division 
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 |> there is no data to show chromium is effective in promoting weight loss. the |> few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher |> ently biased (the investigators were making money from marketing it). |> theoretically it really doesnt make sense either. the claim is that chromium |> will increase muscle mass and decrease fat. of course, chromium is also used t |> o cure diabetes, high blood pressure and increase muscle mass in athletes(just |> as well as anabolic steroids). sounds like snake oil for the 1990's :-) where are your references? i have been unable to find studies that state that chromium "cures diabetese". it can reduce the amount of insulin you have to take. "high blood pressure" - i have never heard of this claim before. "... anabolic steroids" - i have also never heard of this claim before. sounds like you are making things up and stretching the truth for god knows what reason. did somebody piss you off at one time? |> on the other hand, it really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet, and place |> bo effects of anything can be pretty dramatic... i agree with you that chromium picolinate by itself isn't likely to make a fat person thin. but it can be the decisive component of an overall strategy for long-term weight control and make an important contribution to good health. it is important to exercise (11, 12) and also avoid fat calories (9, 10). chromium picolinate has shown to reduce fat and increase lean muscle (1, 2, 3). i will not bore you with the statistics. you wouldn't believe these anyway. chromium picolinate is an exceptionally bioactive source of the essential mineral chromium. chromium plays a vital role in "sensitizing" the body's tissues to the hormone insulin. weight gain in the form of fat tends to impair sensitivity to insulin and thus, in turn, makes it harder to lose weight (4). insulin directly stimulates protein synthesis and retards protein breakdown in muscles (5, 6). this "protein sparing" effect of insulin tends to decline during low calorie diets as insulin levels decline, which results in loss of muscle and organ tissue. by "sensitizing" muscle to insulin, chromium picolinate helps to preserve muscle in dieters so that they "burn" more fat and less muscle. preservation of lean body mass has an important long-term positive effect on metabolic rate, helping dieters keep off the fat they've lost. chromium picolinate promotes efficient metabolism by aiding the thermogenic (heat producing) effects of insulin. insulin levels serve as a rough index of the availability of food calories, so it's not at all surprising that insulin stimulates metabolism (4, 7, 8). note that i did not say that chromium picolinate increases metabolism. in summary, you need to change your life style in order to loose weight and stay healthy: a. reduce dietary fat consumption to no more than 20% of calories. - eating fat makes you fat. b. increase dietary fiber - low in calories; high in nutrients. c. get regular aerobic exercise at least 3 times a week - burn calories. d. take chromium picolinate daily - lose fat; keep muscle references: 1. kaats gr, fisher ja, blum k. abstract, american aging association, 21st annual meeting, denver, october 1991. 2. evans, gw. int j biosoc med res 1989; 11: 163-180. 3. page tg, ward tl, southern ll. j animal sci 69, suppl 1: abstract 403, 1991. 4. felig p. clin physiol 1984; 4: 267-273. 5. kimball sr, jefferson ls. diabetes metab rev 4: 773, 1988. 6. fukugawa nk, minaher kl, rowe jw. et al. j clin invest 76: 2306, 1985. 7. fehlmann m, freychet p. biol chem 256: 7449, 1981 8. pittman cs, suda ak, chambers jb, jr., ray gy. metabolism 28: 333, 1979. 9. danforth e, jr. am j clin nutr 41: 1132, 1985. 10. mccarty mf. med hypoth 20: 183, 1986. 11. bielinski r, schutz y, jequier e. am j clin nutr 42:69, 1985. 12. young jc, treadway jl, balon tw, garvas hp, ruderman nb. metabolism 35: 1048, 1986. best regards, michael vincze mav@asd470.dseg.ti.com 
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 you can try adding a few drops of olive oil into the ear during a shower to soften up the wax. do this for a couple days, then try syringing again. it is also safe to point your ear up at the shower head, and allow the water to rinse it out. about six years ago my ears clogged up with wax, probably as a result of to much headphone use. anyway, the clinic that cleaned them out used the following procedure: 1. inject olive oil into ears. 2. prevent leakage of oil with cotton. 3. come back in an hour. 4. rinse ears with warm vater, forcefully injected into ear (very strange sensation). 5. done. they had special tools to do this, and were evidently quite familiar with the problem: very large steel syringe. special bowl with cutout for ear to take the grime coming out without good luck bjorn r. bjornsson brb@falcon.is 
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 any opinions on burzynski's antineoplastons or information about the current status of his research would be appreciated. burzynski's work is not too promising. none of his a-1 through a-5 antineoplastons have been shown to have antineoplastic effects against experimental cancer. the nci conducted tests of a-2 and a-5 against leukemia in mice, with the result that doses high enough to produce toxic effects in the mice were not effective in inhibiting the growth of the tumor or killing it. (these were in 1983 and 1985) burzynski claims that a-10 is the active factor common to all of a-1 and a-5 (something which he has not shown, a-10 has only been extracted from a-2. he also hasn't shown that a-1 through a-5 are actually distinct substances). the nci conducted a series of tests using a-10 against a standard panel of tumors that included different cell lines from tumors in the following classes: leukemia, non-small-cell and small-cell lung cancer, colon cancer, cancer of the central nervous system, melanoma, ovarian cancer and renal cancer. a-10 exhibited neither growth inhibition nor cytotoxicity at the dose levels tested. it is necessary to process a-10 since it is not soluble (burzynski's theory requires soluble agents), but this basically hydrolizes it to pag (which he calls as 2.5). pag is not an information carrying peptide, something which byrzynski claims is necessary for antineoplastic activity. as 2.1 (also derived from a-10) is a 4:1 mixture of pa and pag. pa (also not a peptide) can be purchased at a chemical supply houses for about $0.09 a gram. a-10 is chemically extremely similar to glutithamide and thalidomide, both of which are habit forming and can cause peripheral neuropathy. the nasty effects of thalidomide are widely known. in spite of this similarity, a-10 does not appear to have been tested for it's potential to induce teratogenicity or peripheral neuropathy. many of burzynski's statements about the origin of his theory, early research, past and present support by others for his work have been shown to be untrue. sdb@ssr.com 
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 i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a "licensed herbologist and iridologist" what are your opinions? how much can you tell about a person's health by looking into their eyes? its bogus. see the sci.skeptic faq (i edit it). you can diagnose some things by looking at the eyes. glaucoma is the classic example, but there are probably others. iridology maps parts of the body onto the irises of the eyes. by looking at the patterns, striations and occasional blobs in the irises you are supposed to be able to diagnose illnesses all over the body. the two questions to ask any alternative therapist are: 1: how does it work? 2: what evidence is there? the answer to question 1 takes a little knowledge of medicine to evaluate. i don't know about iridology, but i've read a book on reflexology, which is a remarkably similar notion except that the organs of the body are mapped onto the soles of the feet. there are supposed to be channels running down the body carrying information or energy of some sort. anatomists have found no such structures. (always beware the words "channel" and "energy" in any spiel put out by an alternative practitioner.) the answer to question 2 is rather simpler. if all they have is anecdotal evidence then forget it. ask for referreed papers in mainstream medical journals. ignore any bull about the conspiracy of rich doctors suppressing alternative practitioners. studies are done and papers are published. some of them are even positive. the word "licensed" in the flyer is an interesting one. licensed by whom? for what? it is quite possible that the herbology is real and requires a license: you can kill someone by giving them the wrong plants to eat, and many plants contain very powerful drugs (foxglove and willow spring to mind). it is not clear whether the license extends to the iridology, and i suspect that if you ask you will be told that it means "(licensed herbologist) and iridologist". btw, the usual term is "herbalist". why use a different word? paul johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk). | tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245 these ideas and others like them can be had | gec-marconi research is not for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions 
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 thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness, coldness, and weight gain. there is also water retention (possibly around heart), changes in vision, and coarser hair and skin among other things. is there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression? there can be. but depression is not diagnositic of thyroid deficiency. thyroid blood tests are easy, cheap, and effective in diagnosing thyroid -jackie- 
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<instance id="sci.med59587">
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 i have two quations to ask: 1) does it cause the body any harm if one picks one's nose? for example, might it lead to a loss of ability to smell? 2) is it harmful for one to eat one's nose pickings? 
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 i've heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on? do you swim nude in a public swimming pool? :) i doubt sperm can penetrate swimsuit material, assuming they aren't immediately dispersed by water currents. brian tao:: taob@r-node.hub.org (r-node bbs, 416-249-5366, free!) ::::::::::: 90taobri@wave.scar.utoronto.ca (university of toronto) 
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 i am neither a real believer, nor a disbeliever when it comes to so-called "paranormal" stuff; but as far as i'm concerned, it is just as likely as the existence of, for instance, a god, which seems to be quite accepted in our societies - without any scientific basis. but no one (or at least, not many people) are trying to pass off god as a scientific fact. not so with kirlian photography. i'll admit that it is possible that some superior intelligence exists elsewhere, and if people want to label that intelligence "god", i'm not going to stop them. anyway, let's _not_ turn this into a theological debate. ;-) i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something, anything, simply because it doesn't fit your current frame of reference. history shows that many great people, great scientists, were people who kept an open mind - and were ridiculed by sceptics. read alt.fan.robert.mcelwaine sometime. i've never been so closed-minded before subscribing to that group. :) brian tao:: taob@r-node.hub.org (r-node bbs, 416-249-5366, free!) ::::::::::: 90taobri@wave.scar.utoronto.ca (university of toronto) 
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 i remember as a kid visiting my relatives on kauai, and one of the things that really frightened me was centipedes. i'd been told they were poisonous and infrequently one would pop up and scare the heck out of me. once one came out of the vacuum cleaner and it seemed like it was at least a foot long and moving at 35 miles an hour! 
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 gt> from: gary@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (gary taylor) gt> hi, we are trying to develop a image reconstruction simulation for the skull you could do high resolution ct (computed tomographic) scanning of the skull. many ct scanners have an algorithm to do 3-d reconstructions in any plane you want. if you did reconstructions every 2 degrees or so in all planes, you could use the resultant images to create user-controlled animation. . slmr 2.1 . e-mail: jim.zisfein@factory.com (jim zisfein) 
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 oh yeah ? scene: navy boot camp di: "son, you smel awful! dont you ever clean that thing?" recruit: "no sir !" di: "why the hell not!" recruit: "your not sposed to touch down there?" di: "why ?" recruit: "cause thats the eye of god down there, an' your not s'posed to touch it..." this did not happen 40 years ago, it happened 2 years ago. i think americans are quite hung up about sex and the involved plumbing! wow that certainly convinced me that all americans ar hung up about sex. just one example of something that probably ran in a hustler mag is enough to convince me. sarchasm off. | patrick draper-zbt we are a nation of laws, not people. | | draper@umcc.umich.edu flames > /dev/koresh | | university of michigan computer club | 
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 (this is a cross post to rec.gardens and sci.med. set the follow-up (line in the header, depending on what kind of advice you give, or (e-mail directly to me: ceci@lysator.liu.se.) i have a problem with wasps -- they seem to love me. last summer i couldn't spend more than ten to fifteen minutes at a time in my garden before one or several wasps would come for me. i am asking for advice on how to repel wasps. this year the wasps have built their nest under a stone next to one of my tiny ponds. the caretaker (poor fellow!) will have to take care of them, and that will give me a head start on them. last year we couldn't find any nest. even after the caretaker has gassed the nest in my tiny garden of 30 square meter, other wasps will most likely vie for the territory. is there anything i can grow, rub on my skin or spread on the soil that will repel the black and yellow bastards? never mind if it turns my skin purple or kills off all my beloved plants, i want to be able to spend time in my garden like everyone would it help to remove the ponds and the bird bath? the wasps seem to come to drink at them, and i suppose that their prey will breed in them. the black tits seem to be afraid of the wasps, because as soon as the wasp season starts, they stop coming to have their bath. even when i am not trying to win back my patio from 15-20 wasps, they seem to love me. the advice i usually get when i ask what to do about wasps, is to stand still and not wave my arms. i've got some painful stings when trying to follow that advice. i have also tried to use hygienic products without perfumes, to no avail. they still love me, and come for me, even when i'm in the middle of a crowd. so far only two things seem to work: to kill it dead or to run into the house and close all doors and windows. nb: i don't have a problem with bees or bumble-bees, just wasps. patronizing advice redirected to /dev/null. --ceci =====ceci@lysator.liu.se=========================================== "the number of rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon is infinite." phaedrus' law from rm pirsig's _zen_and_the_art_of_motorcycle_maintenance_ 
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 i would like to know anything you folks can tell me regarding lithium. i have a 10 year old son that lives with my ex-wife. she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin, tofranil, and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion. i would like to know whatever is important that i should know. i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros/cons regarding lithium therapy. i have a booklet from the "lithium information center" based at the university of wisconsin, but feel that it is pro-lithium and would be interested in comments from the "not necessarily pro" side of the fence. i am a concerned father and just wish to be well informed... i get "antsy" about posts like this. is the concern more for son or about ex-w ife??? the standard impartial procedure is to ask for a second opinion about son's condition. then too, is son "acting out" games between divorced parents???? 
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 [someone writes:] i have a 10 year old son that lives with my ex-wife. she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin, tofranil, and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion. i would like to know whatever is important that i should know. i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros/cons regarding lithium therapy. i get "antsy" about posts like this. is the concern more for son or about ex-w ife??? the standard impartial procedure is to ask for a second opinion about son's condition. then too, is son "acting out" games between divorced parents???? precisely. one wonders what unusual strain the boy might be under that could be causing "difficulty with his behavior". standard practice would be to get a second opinion from a child psychiatrist. one would want to rule out the possibility that the "bad behavior" is not psychiatric illness at all. (disclaimer: i am not a medic. but i am a parent.) :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<answer instance="sci.med59602" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 not everything that goes in comes out, and personaly i don't mind giving my body a hand once in a while. just my experience, george paap i've got a very nice collection of historical books on medical quackery, and on the topic of massage this is a recurring theme. ordinary massage is intended to make a person feel better, especially if they have muscular or joint problems. but -- like chiropracty -- there are some practitioners who take the technique to a far extreme, invoking what seems to me to be quack science to justify their technique. in the case of massage, there is a technique called "deep abdominal massage" in which the masseur is literally attempting to massage the intestines! the notion is that undigested food adheres to the inner surface of the intestines and putrifies, releasing poisons which cause various disease syndromes. by this vigorous and painful procedure, it is alleged that these deposits can be loosened up and passed out. i just can't believe this idea has any truth behind it! the human intestine is not a new york city sewer pipe! and even if it were, you eat half of a small box of triscuits, and there ain't gonna be nothin' sticking to the inner surface of your intestine :-) mark, this is the most reasonable post that i've seen in sci. med. on the topic of colonic flushing. i'm in a profession that uses manipulation(a very refined form of massage) to treat various human diseases. proving that manipulation works has been extremely difficult(as the md's delight in pointing out). the osteopathic profession seems to be making better progress than the chiropractors in proving(scientifically) that their techingues work. the jaoa recently had a study on the use of manipulation to relieve mensrual cramps in women with results that were as good or better than drug treatment(using physiological measurements, and not just the woman's preception of improvement). this study was hailed by the jaoa editors as the turning point in the profession's long struggle to prove itself to the medical community. i'm currently trying to get the aoa(american osteopathic association) which has supported most of the osteopathic research in the u.s. to also support nutrition education and research. i've pointed out, in a grant proposal, that the founder of osteopathic medicine(a.t. still) embraced both diet and manipulation to set himself apart from the md's of his time who were pushing only drugs(still was himself an md who got real dissillusioned with drugs during his service in the civil war). he decided that there had to be a better way to treat human disease since he saw the cure(drugs) as being worse than the disease. through his many years of study of the human body, he developed his manipulation techniques that he then taught to his students in the u.s's first osteopathic medical school. we now have 17. still used manipulation to treat(and also diagnose) human disease but he used diet to prevent human disease. i'm trying to get the osteopathic profession to return to it's roots and beat the md's to the punch(so to speak). both do's and md's in current medical practice have very little understanding of how diet affects human health. this has to change. martin banschbach, ph.d. professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine "you are what you eat." 
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<instance id="sci.med59603">
<answer instance="sci.med59603" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i have just started taking allergy shots a month ago and is still wondering what i am getting into. a friend of mine told me that the body change every 7 years (whatever that means) and i don't need those antibody-building allergy shots at all. does that make sense to anyone? btw, can someone summarize what is in the consumer report february, 1988 article? i am reluctant to summarize it, for then you will have my opinion of what the article says, rather than your own opinion. i think it is important enough for you to take the trouble to go to the library and get the article. the title is "the shot doctors" and it appears on pages 96-100 of the february, 1988 issue of consumer reports. the following excerpt from the article may entice you to read the whole article: too often, shots are overused....."when you put a patient on shots, you've got an annuity for life," a former president of the american academy of allergy and immunology told cu. [page 97] 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59606">
<answer instance="sci.med59606" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 i posted about a "pulse of (relaxation) electricity". i now think it more like a pulse of "relaxation" or comfort than a pulse of electricity. it is what you feel if you are overwhelmed by a feeling of comfort, such as seeing or thinking about something beautiful. another thing. when you sleep, you lie down facing up, with your palms aside of you and facing down on the surface of the bed. then you relax, and there start involuntary nerve firings inside your flesh. so, you feel a "shiver" below the surface of the skin (not heart-beat). then this shiver increases, and comes up to your head, and the roam you hear loudens. (note that you always hear a high-pitch when you lie down in bed; this is just the noise of your blood running in your ear.) this roam is different from the high pitch, but follows the shiver of your "shiver" is not the word. it may be called a mild vibration or quake. what is this shiver and roam? can i use this to induce out-of-body daniel chung (mr.), u.s.a. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59616">
<answer instance="sci.med59616" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 :being a chronic hbsag carrier does not necessarily mean the patient has chronic :persistent anything. persons who are chronic carriers may have no clinical, :biochemical, or histologic evidence of liver disease, or they may have chronic :persistent hepatitis, chronic active hepatitis, cirrhosis, or hepatocellular :carcinoma. :most cases of chronic persistent hepatitis (cph) are probably the result of :a viral infection, although in a good number of cases the cause cannot be :determined. the diagnosis of cph is made on the basis of liver biopsy. it :consists of findings of portal inflammation, an intact periportal limiting :plate, and on occasion isolated foci of intralobular necrosis. but in contrast :to chronic active hepatitis (cah) there is no periportal inflammation, :bridging necrosis, or fibrosis. :cph has, indeed, an excellent prognosis. if i had to choose between cah and :cph there is no question i would also choose cph. however, as david pointed :out, the distinction between the two is not as neat as some of us would have :it. the histology can sometimes be pretty equivocal, with biopsies showing :areas compatible with both cph and cah. maybe it is a sampling problem. maybe :it is a continuum. i don't know. darn. just when i think i understand something someone who knows the pathology has to burst my bubble :-( we'd better not start talking about glomerular diseases, then i'll really get depressed. seriously though, i wonder how someone with cph would end up getting a biopsy in the first place? my understanding (and feel free to correct me) is that the enzymes are at worst mildly elevated, with overall normal hepatic function. i would think that the only clue might be a history of prior hepb infection and a positive hepb-sag. or is it indeed on a continuum with cah, and the distinction merely one of pathology and prognosis, but otherwise identical clinical features? = kenneth gilbert __|__ university of pittsburgh = = general internal medicine | "...dammit, not a programmer!" = 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59617">
<answer instance="sci.med59617" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 the prozac gave very bad anxiety/jitters and insomina, it was impossible to sit still for more than a minute or so. i tried prozac a few months ago, and had some insomnia from it, but no anxiety or jitters. i probably could have lived with the insomnia if the prozac had done any good, but it only provided a tiny benefit. maybe because the person who prescribed it didn't know much and gave up after a 20mg dose didn't work. now i'm seeing a psychiatrist who has put me on zoloft (another serotonin reuptake inhibitor like prozac). one pill/day (50mg) seemed to help some. now i'm trying 100mg/day. zoloft has fewer and milder side effects than prozac. i think my doctor said that only 4% of the people taking zoloft have to discontinue it because of side effects. the only problem i'm having is some minor gi distress, but nothing too annoying. hopefully the zoloft will work. maybe your friend should try this one next. my psychiatrist's strategy seems to be to first try one of the serotonin drugs, usually prozac. if that works, great. if it works but has too many side effects, try zoloft or maybe paxil. if the serotonin drugs don't work at all, try one of the tricyclics like desipramine. ...suggestions as to the next step? having a doctor who knows something about antidepressants can make a big difference. my psychiatrist claims that most gps and fps don't have much experience in this area, and from what i've seen i'm inclined to believe him. i think i know more about antidepressants than the people at my family practitioner's office. disclaimer: i'm not a doctor; what i know about this comes from talking to my psychiatrist and reading sci.med. john werner werner@soe.berkeley.edu uc berkeley school of education 510-596-5868 
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<instance id="sci.med59621">
<answer instance="sci.med59621" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 there's a chiropractor who has a stand in the middle of a shopping mall, offering free examinations. part of the process involves a multiple-jointed sensor arm and a computer that says in a computer- sounding voice "digitize left psis" "digitize right psis" "digitize c7" "please stand with spine in neutral position". i'm wondering whether this doesn't really measure anything and the computer voice is to impress the victims, or whether it is measuring something that chiropractors think is useful to measure. haynes@cats.ucsc.edu haynes@cats.bitnet "ya can talk all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!" "no it aint! but ya gotta know the territory!" meredith willson: "the music man" 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59623">
<answer instance="sci.med59623" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 : > does anyone know of any studies done on the long-term health effects of a : > man's vasectomy on his female partner? : i've heard of no studies, but speculation: : why on _earth_ would there be any effect on women's health? that's about : the most absurd idea i've heard since ted kaldis's claim that no more than : 35,000 people would march on washington. : ok, _one_ point: greatly reduced chance of pregnancy. but that's it. : --josh well, there might be another: since i'm sterile my wife can enjoy sex without fear of getting pregnant. ______ __ _ _ / /_ __________ __. _ /--< . . // // o ____ _, _ __ (_/ / /_(_) / / / <_(_/|_/_) /___/_(_/_</_</_<_/ / <_(_)_</_/ (_ uucp: ..rutgers!ur-valhalla!btoy1!mrbulli /| compu$erve: internet: mrbulli@btoy1.rochester.ny.us |/ 76535,2221 
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<instance id="sci.med59624">
<answer instance="sci.med59624" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 but after you have taken antihistamines for a few nights, doesn't it start to have a paradoxical effect? i used to take one every night for allergies and couldn't figure out why i developed bad insomnia. insomnia is a known, but relatively infrequent, side-effect of for most people, this does not occur. on the other hand, most people can build up a tolerance to an antihistamine with extended use. (allergy sufferers are often switched from one antihistamine to another to avoid this.) steven litvintchouk mitre corporation 202 burlington road bedford, ma 01730-1420 fone: (617)271-7753 arpa: sdl@mitre.org uucp: linus!sdl 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59627">
<answer instance="sci.med59627" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 hi: i went to the orthopedist on tuesday. he diagnosed me as having "intersection syndrome". he prescribed feldene for me. i want to know more about the disease and the drug. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59628">
<answer instance="sci.med59628" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 could someone give me some information on the cause, pathophysiology and clinical manifestations and treatment of this type of cancer. thank you in advance, jason. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59630">
<answer instance="sci.med59630" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i've read that exercise makes the heart pump more blood at a stroke, and that it also makes the heart pumb slower, in order to make up for the greater volume. my internist, who diagnosed my av block, slow heart rate and pvc's, told me something different. she says that heart rate is associated with the electrical properties of the hear muscle, not its size. exercise lowers heart rate and increases stroke volume, but the effects are unrelated except for their common source. the av block, she asserts, is another electrical effect, which is irreversable - even when exercise is dicontinued. pvc's are also common in runners. so my ekg puts me in a class with trained athletes and also with heart patients. isn't that strange, though? are there any not-so-beneficial aspects to athlete's heart? is it all good? not worried, just curious, -larry c. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59633">
<answer instance="sci.med59633" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 nnget 93122.1300541 moss is people against cancer's director of communications. people against cancer seems to offer pretty questionable information, not exactly the place a cancer patient should be advised to turn to. and where do you advise people to turn for cancer information? (maybe all) of the infomation in their latest catalogue concern treatments that have been shown to be ineffective against cancer, and many of the treatments are quite dangerous as well. it seems to me you've offered a circular refutation of moss's organization. who has shown the information in the latest book of pac to be questionable? could it be those 'regulatory' agencies and medical industries which moss is showing to be operating with *major* vested interests. whether one believes that these vested interests are real or not, or whether or not they actually shape medical research is a seperate argument. if one sees a possibility, however, that these interests exist, then the 'fact' that some of the information put out by pac has been refuted by the medical industry doesn't hold much weight. as for the ineffectiveness of antineoplasteons, the fact that the nih didn't find them effective doesn't make much sense here. of course they didn't! i tend to have more faith in the word of the patients who are now alive after being told years ago that they would be dead of cancer soon. they are fighting like hell to keep that clinic open, and they credit his treatment with their survival. anyone who looks at the nih's record for investigation of 'alterna- tive' cancer therapies will easily see that they have a strange knack for find- ing relatively cheap and nontoxic therapies dangerous or useless. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59635">
<answer instance="sci.med59635" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 1) does it cause the body any harm if one picks one's nose? for example, might it lead to a loss of ability to smell? 2) is it harmful for one to eat one's nose pickings? i've seen children do this and wondered about something. if the mucus in one's nose collects (filters) particles going into the airway, if a child then picks and ingests this material, might it have a vaccinatory effect, since if the body ingests airborne diseases or other 'stuff' on the mucus, the body might generate antibodies for this small "invasion"? maybe this is why some children don't get sick very often? :-) internet : mvac23!thomas@udel.edu or thomas%mvac23@udel.edu (home) : lapp@cdhub1.dnet.dupont.com (work) osi : c=us/a=mci/s=lapp/d=id=4398613 uucp : {ucbvax,mcvax,uunet}!udel!mvac23!thomas location : newark, de, usa 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59637">
<answer instance="sci.med59637" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 our 20-month son has started falling sick quite often every since he started going to day care. he was at home for the first year and he did not fall sick even once. now it seems like he has some sort of cold or flu pretty much once a month. most of the time the cold leads to an ear infection as well, with the result that he ends up being on antibiotics 3 weeks out of 4. i know kids in day care fall sick more often, but we sounds pretty familiar. i posted similar cries about last september when caroline just entered daycare. she was two, then, and have been with continuous colds since until last march. as spring approaches, her colds slowed down. meanwhile we grew more and more relaxed about her colds. only once did the doctor diagnosed an ear infection and only twice she had antibiotics. (the other time was due to sinus infection, and i wished that i did not give her that awful septra.) are there any studies that can help answer some of these questions? there are the 'net studies' -- that is, if you read this newsgroup often, there will be a round of questions like this every month. there might be formal studies like that, but bear with my not so academic experience. -- how often do kids in their first, second and third years fall sick? how often do they get colds, flus, ear infections? gee, i bet 50/50 you'll hear cases in all these catagories. is there any data on home care vs. day care? i am pretty sure, an insulated child at home sicks less. but, that child still will face the world one day. -- does being sick "build immunity" (leading to less illness later), that's what i believe and comfort myself with. caroline will get more and more colds for sure before she learned not to stick her hand in other kid's mouth nor let other kids do the same. cold virus mutate easily. however, i hope that her immune system will be stronger to fight these diseases, so she would be less severely affected. everytime she has a cold, we make sure she blow her nose frequently and give her dorcol or dimetapp at night so she can have good rest (thanks to some suggestions from the net). that's about all the care she needs from us. i try very hard to keep her off antibiotics. twice her ped. gave me choice to decide whether she would have antibiotics. i waited just long enough (3-4 days) to see that she fought the illness off. i do understand that you don't have much choice if the child is in pain and/or high fever. does it make kids "weaker" (leading to more illness later), or does it not have any long term effect? if the child doesn't rely on antibiotics to fight off the sickness everytime, then the child should be stronger. -- does taking antibiotics on a regular basis have any negative long term effects? i'll leave this to expert. -- how does one tell if a child is more susceptible to illness than normal, and what does one do about it? if your child just entered daycare, i'm pretty sure the first 6 months will be the hardest. (then, you get more used to it. boy, do i hate to see me typing this sentence. i recall when i read something like this last september, i said to myself, 'oh, sure.' but, i do get used to it, now.) however, i do hear people say that it does get better after a year or two. i am looking forward to a healthier next winter. as it gets warmer, i hope you do get some break -- is there any way to build immunity and resistance? eat well, sleep well. try not to use antibiotics if not absolutely necessary. good luck. wen-lin 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59638">
<answer instance="sci.med59638" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 hi all, my skin is very dry in general. but the most serious part is located from knees down. the skin there looks like segmented. the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin. i would like to know if there is any cure for this. as a matter of fact, i just saw a dermatologist the other day, and while i was there, i asked him about dry skin. i'd been spending a small fortune on various creams, lotions, and other dry skin treatments. he said all i needed was a large jar of vaseline. soak in a lukewarm tub of water for 10 minutes (only 10 minutes!) then massage in the vaseline, to trap the moisture in. that is the standard advice in dermatology texts. the soak part greatly increases the inconvenience. don't bother unless it doesn't work otherwise. the hard part will be finding the time to rub in the vaseline properly. exactly, but it adds to the "ritual" aspect, which is important for us suggestible patients. (posters, don't bother to repeat the rationale for the soak.) if it's not done right, you remain greasy and stick greasy no matter what. vaseline (generically, petrolatum) is famous for that. one text states that the more greasy a dry-skin cream is, the more effective. try it. it's got to be cheaper then spending $30 for 8 oz. of 'natural' try usp lanolin, at least for maintenance (preventive) therapy. usp lanolin is natural and much less greasy and cheap (don't buy the more expensive perfumed lanolin mixture). as i've commented before, petrolatum is a poorly characterized mixture of hydrocarbons which are not found in biological systems (that is not inherently bad, but smell it up close, even on your hand), are partially absorbed into the body and remain there for months or more, and have associations with cancer. don't panic, but also don't believe it's god's gift to the human skin. oren haber-schaim 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59639">
<answer instance="sci.med59639" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 does the "thermoscan" instrument really work? it is supposed to give you a fast and accurate temperature reading in the ear. how far in the ear does one have to insert the instrument? is it worth the $100 it is currently selling for? no, they do not work well. my doctor started using one recently, and i thought the concept was so amazing that i bought one too. the thing works by reading the infrared emissions from the ear drum. the ear drum is hotter than the ear canal walls, so you have to point the thing very carefully. this means tugging on the top of the ear to straighten out the ear canal, then inserting the thing snugly, then pushing a button. unfortunately, there are many things that can go wrong. it is almost impossible to aim the thing correctly when you do it on yourself. i get readings which differ from each other by up to 2 degrees, and may differ from an oral thermometer by up to 2 degrees. i talked to one of the nurses in my doctor's office recently about this, and she said she didn't like them either, for same reasons. she did give me some instruction on how to tug on my ear, and what correct insertion feels like, but she said she thought it was impossible to do correctly on one's self. she also said that she and other nurses had complained to the company about inaccurate readings, and that someone from the company had told them to take great care to clean the infrared window at the end of the probe with alcohol from time to time. she demonstrated this prior to reading my temperature, and managed to get a reading within 0.5 degree of the oral temperature i took at home before driving to the dr's office. i have also noticed tha some nurses click the button, then remove the probe immediately. this causes wrong readings. in my experience, you have to leave the probe in a good 1 to 2 seconds after clicking the button to get a good measurement. the nurse i talked with agreed. i suspect that many people don't realize this, and therefore get bad readings for yet another reason. in short, it's a great idea. it may work for some folks, but i believe it doesn't work well for a person who wants to take his own temperature. 
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<instance id="sci.med59641">
<answer instance="sci.med59641" senseid="sci.med"/>
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 in a previous article, jeffs@sr.hp.com (jeff silva) says: i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth. (yes, by a male doctor, so i'm sure some of you women will disagree). i'd really like to know the truth in this, so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in. i've had three children and the pain was different in degree for each. i think it just depends. i was impressed by how awful a kidney stone seemed to be, when i saw a relative with one. i bet they depend, too--some are probably worse than others. pain--yucch. bonita kale 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59642">
<answer instance="sci.med59642" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 i have osteoarthritis, and my huband has just been diagnosed with diabetes (type ii, i guess--no insulin). i've been trying to read up on these two conditions, and what really surprises me is how few experiments have been done and how little is known. losing weight appears to be imperative for diabetes and advisable for arthritis (at least, for -women- with arthritis), but, of course, the very conditions that make weight loss advisable are part of the reason for the weight gain. for myself, i'm almost afraid to lose weight, because no matter how gentle and sensible a diet i use (the last one was 1800-2000 calories, in about eight small meals), the weight won't go off gradually and stay off. instead, it drops off precipitously, and then comes back on with much interest, like bread on the waters. with this experience, it's hard to be encouraging to my husband. all i can suggest is to make it as gradual as possible. meanwhile, some experts recommend no sugar, others, no fat, others, just a balanced diet. it's almost impossible to tell from their writings -which- parts of their recommendations are supposed to help the condition, and which are merely ideas the expert thinks are nifty. is it my imagination, or are these very old conditions very poorly understood? is it just that i'm used to pediatrician-talk ("it's strep; give him this and he'll get well.") and so my expectations are too high? bonita kale 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.med59645">
<answer instance="sci.med59645" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 bullshit ! ! ! 
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<instance id="sci.med59646">
<answer instance="sci.med59646" senseid="sci.med"/>
<context>
 organization: temple university x-newsreader: nnr/vm s_1.3.2 last week i went to see a gastroenterologist. i had never met this doctor before, and she did not know what i was there for. as soon as i arrived, somebody showed me to an examining room and handed me a gown. they told me to undress (from the waist down, to be exact) and wait for the doctor. is this the usual drill when you go to a doctor for the first time? i don't have much experience going to doctors (knock on wood), but on the couple of occasions when i've gone to a new doctor, i met him with my clothes on. first, he introduced himself, asked what i was there for and took a history, all before i undressed. are patients usually expected to get naked before meeting a doctor for the first time? personally, i'd prefer to meet the doctor on something remotely resembling a condition of parity and to establish an identity as a person who wears clothes before dropping my drawers. if nothing else, it minimizes the time that i have to spend in the self conscious, ill at ease and vulnerable condition of a person with a bare bottom talking to somebody who is fully clothed. does anybody besides me regard this get-naked-first-and-then-we-can-talk attitude as insensitive? also, is it unusual? james arbuckle email: v5113e@vm.temple.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space59497">
<answer instance="sci.space59497" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 "existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in [crb] dong .... dong .... dong .... do i hear the death-knell of string theory? i agree. you can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list, including the omni-present "black holes." will bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory alone? then what about my original criticism, when i said "curvature can only exist relative to something non-curved"? bruce replied: "'existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in physics. we cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about." at the moment i don't see a way to defend that statement and the existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously. -|tom|- "i hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties." "of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. to say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved, is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. i, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - nikola tesla et "tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. perhaps now his time comes." 
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<instance id="sci.space59849">
<answer instance="sci.space59849" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 archive-name: space/groups last-modified: $date: 93/04/01 14:39:08 $ space activist/interest/research groups and space publications aia -- aerospace industry association. professional group, with primary membership of major aerospace firms. headquartered in the dc area. acts as the "voice of the aerospace industry" -- and it's opinions are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of the firms in aia. [address needed] aiaa -- american institute of aeronautics and astronautics. professional association, with somewhere about 30,000-40,000 members. 65 local chapters around the country -- largest chapters are dc area (3000 members), la (2100 members), san francisco (2000 members), seattle/nw (1500), houston (1200) and orange county (1200), plus student chapters. not a union, but acts to represent aviation and space professionals (engineers, managers, financial types) nationwide. holds over 30 conferences a year on space and aviation topics publishes technical journals (aerospace journal, journal of spacecraft and rockets, etc.), technical reference books and is _the_ source on current aerospace state of the art through their published papers and proceedings. also offers continuing education classes on aerospace design. has over 60 technical committees, and over 30 committees for industry standards. aiaa acts as a professional society -- offers a centralized resume/jobs function, provides classes on job search, offers low-cost health and life insurance, and lobbies for appropriate legislation (aiaa was one of the major organizations pushing for iras - individual retirement accounts). very active public policy arm -- works directly with the media, congress and government agencies as a legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace technology technical issues. reasonably non-partisan, in that they represent the industry as a whole, and not a single company, organization, or viewpoint. membership $70/yr (student memberships are less). american institute of aeronautics and astronautics the aerospace center 370 l'enfant promenade, sw washington, dc 20077-0820 (202)-646-7400 amsat - develops small satellites (since the 1960s) for a variety of uses by amateur radio enthusiasts. has various publications, supplies quicktrak satellite tracking software for pc/mac/amiga etc. amateur satellite corporation (amsat) p.o. box 27 washington, dc 20044 (301)-589-6062 asera - australian space engineering and research association. an australian non-profit organisation to coordinate, promote, and conduct space r&d projects in australia, involving both australian and international (primarily university) collaborators. activities include the development of sounding rockets, small satellites (especially microsatellites), high-altitude research balloons, and appropriate payloads. provides student projects at all levels, and is open to any person or organisation interested in participating. publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal. membership $a100 (dual subscription) subscriptions $a25 (newsletter only) $a50 (journal only) asera ltd po box 184 ryde, nsw, australia, 2112 email: lindley@syd.dit.csiro.au bis - british interplanetary society. probably the oldest pro-space group, bis publishes two excellent journals: _spaceflight_, covering current space activities, and the _journal of the bis_, containing technical papers on space activities from near-term space probes to interstellar missions. bis has published a design study for an interstellar probe called _daedalus_. british interplanetary society 27/29 south lambeth road london sw8 1sz no dues information available at present. isu - international space university. isu is a non-profit international graduate-level educational institution dedicated to promoting the peaceful exploration and development of space through multi-cultural and multi-disciplinary space education and research. for further information on isu's summer session program or permanent campus activities please send messages to 'information@isu.isunet.edu' or contact the isu executive offices at: international space university 955 massachusetts avenue 7th floor cambridge, ma 02139 (617)-354-1987 (phone) (617)-354-7666 (fax) l-5 society (defunct). founded by keith and carolyn henson in 1975 to advocate space colonization. its major success was in preventing us participation in the un "moon treaty" in the late 1970s. merged with the national space institute in 1987, forming the national space nsc - national space club. open for general membership, but not well known at all. primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace industry. acts as information conduit and social gathering group. active in dc, with a chapter in la. monthly meetings with invited speakers who are "heavy hitters" in the field. annual "outlook on space" conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government annual planning for space programs. cheap membership (approx $20/yr). [address needed] nss - the national space society. nss is a pro-space group distinguished by its network of local chapters. supports a general agenda of space development and man-in-space, including the nasa space station. publishes _ad astra_, a monthly glossy magazine, and runs shuttle launch tours and space hotline telephone services. a major sponsor of the annual space development conference. associated with spacecause and spacepac, political lobbying organizations. membership $18 (youth/senior) $35 (regular). national space society membership department 922 pennsylvania avenue, s.e. washington, dc 20003-2140 (202)-543-1900 planetary society - founded by carl sagan. the largest space advocacy group. publishes _planetary report_, a monthly glossy, and has supported seti hardware development financially. agenda is primarily support of space science, recently amended to include an international manned mission to mars. the planetary society 65 north catalina avenue pasadena, ca 91106 membership $35/year. ssi - the space studies institute, founded by dr. gerard o'neill. physicist freeman dyson took over the presidency of ssi after o'neill's death in 1992. publishes _ssi update_, a bimonthly newsletter describing work-in-progress. conducts a research program including mass-drivers, lunar mining processes and simulants, composites from lunar materials, solar power satellites. runs the biennial princeton conference on space manufacturing. membership $25/year. senior associates ($100/year and up) fund most ssi research. space studies institute 258 rosedale road po box 82 princeton, nj 08540 seds - students for the exploration and development of space. founded in 1980 at mit and princeton. seds is a chapter-based pro-space organization at high schools and universities around the world. entirely student run. each chapter is independent and coordinates its own local activities. nationally, seds runs a scholarship competition, design contests, and holds an annual international conference and meeting in late summer. students for the exploration and development of space mit room w20-445 77 massachusetts avenue cambridge, ma 02139 (617)-253-8897 email: odyssey@athena.mit.edu dues determined by local chapter. spacecause - a political lobbying organization and part of the nss family of organizations. publishes a bi-monthly newsletter, spacecause news. annual dues is $25. members also receive a discount on _the space activist's handbook_. activities to support pro-space legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting with legislative staff. spacecause primarily operates in the legislative process. national office west coast office spacecause spacecause 922 pennsylvania ave. se 3435 ocean park blvd. washington, d.c. 20003 suite 201-s (202)-543-1900 santa monica, ca 90405 spacepac - a political action committee and part of the nss family of organizations. spacepac researches issues, policies, and candidates. each year, updates _the space activist's handbook_. current handbook price is $25. while spacepac does not have a membership, it does have regional contacts to coordinate local activity. spacepac primarily operates in the election process, contributing money and volunteers to pro-space candidates. 922 pennsylvania ave. se washington, dc 20003 (202)-543-1900 united states space foundation - a public, non-profit organization supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting international education, understanding and support of space. the group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested in education. other projects include developing lesson plans that use space to teach other basic skills such as reading. publishes "spacewatch," a monthly b&w glossy magazine of ussf events and general space news. annual dues: charter $50 ($100 first year) individual $35 teacher $29 college student $20 hs/jr. high $10 elementary $5 founder & $1000+ life member united states space foundation po box 1838 colorado springs, co 80901 (719)-550-1000 world space foundation - has been designing and building a solar-sail spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many jpl employees lend their talents to this project. wsf also provides partial funding for the palomar sky survey, an extremely successful search for near-earth asteroids. publishes *foundation news* and *foundation astronautics notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. contributing associate, minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects). world space foundation post office box y south pasadena, california 91301 aerospace daily (mcgraw-hill) very good coverage of aerospace and space issues. approx. $1400/yr. air & space / smithsonian (bimonthly magazine) box 53261 boulder, co 80332-3261 $18/year us, $24/year international esa - the european space agency publishes a variety of periodicals, generally available free of charge. a document describing them in more detail is in the ames space archive in pub/space/faq/esapublications. final frontier (mass-market bimonthly magazine) - history, book reviews, general-interest articles (e.g. "the 7 wonders of the solar system", "everything you always wanted to know about military space programs", etc.) final frontier publishing co. po box 534 mt. morris, il 61054-7852 $14.95/year us, $19.95 canada, $23.95 elsewhere space news (weekly magazine) - covers us civil and military space programs. said to have good political and business but spotty technical coverage. space news springfield va 22159-0500 (703)-642-7330 $75/year, may have discounts for nss/ssi members journal of the astronautical sciences and space times - publications of the american astronautical society. no details. aas business office 6352 rolling mill place, suite #102 springfield, va 22152 (703)-866-0020 gps world (semi-monthly) - reports on current and new uses of gps, news and analysis of the system and policies affecting it, and technical and product issues shaping gps applications. gps world 859 willamette st. p.o. box 10460 eugene, or 97440-2460 (503)-343-1200 free to qualified individuals; write for free sample copy. innovation (space technology) -- free. published by the nasa office of advanced concepts and technology. a revised version of the nasa office of commercial programs newsletter. planetary encounter - in-depth technical coverage of planetary missions, with diagrams, lists of experiments, interviews with people directly world spaceflight news - in-depth technical coverage of near-earth spaceflight. mostly covers the shuttle: payload manifests, activity schedules, and post-mission assessment reports for every mission. box 98 sewell, nj 08080 $30/year us/canada $45/year elsewhere space (bi-monthly magazine) british aerospace trade journal. very good. $75/year. space calendar (weekly newsletter) space daily/space fax daily (newsletter) short (1 paragraph) news notes. available online for a fee (unknown). space technology investor/commercial space news -- irregular internet column on aspects of commercial space business. free. also limited fax and paper edition. p.o. box 2452 seal beach, ca 90740-1452. all the following are published by: phillips business information, inc. 7811 montrose road potomac, mc 20854 aerospace financial news - $595/year. defense daily - very good coverage of space and defense issues. $1395/year. space business news (bi-weekly) - very good overview of space business activities. $497/year. space exploration technology (bi-weekly) - $495/year. space station news (bi-weekly) - $497/year. undocumented groups anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following groups (or others not mentioned) for inclusion in the answer is encouraged to do so. aas - american astronautical society other groups not mentioned above next: faq #14/15 - how to become an astronaut 
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 archive-name: space/diff diffs since last faq posting (in posting order) (these are hand-edited context diffs; do not attempt to use them to patch old copies of the faq). diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.intro *** /tmp/,rcst1a06400 thu apr 1 14:47:22 1993 --- faq.intro thu apr 1 14:46:55 1993 *** 101,107 **** nasa langley (technical reports) nasa spacelink national space science data center - space and planetary image facility space telescope science institute electronic info. service astronomical databases --- 101,106 ---- *** 130,135 **** --- 129,135 ---- llnl "great exploration" lunar prospector lunar science and activities + orbiting earth satellite histories spacecraft models rocket propulsion spacecraft design diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.net *** /tmp/,rcst1a06405 thu apr 1 14:47:24 1993 --- faq.net thu apr 1 14:46:57 1993 *** 58,63 **** --- 58,67 ---- elements are sent out on the list from dr. kelso, jsc, and other sources as they are released. email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join. + gps digest is a moderated list for discussion of the global positioning + system and other satellite navigation positioning systems. email to + gps-request@esseye.si.com to join. space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in space-related companies. email vincent cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join. *** 223,227 **** --- 227,241 ---- 1030. if in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact nasa personnel. + claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. none + have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. readers + detecting fraud, waste, abuse, or mismanagement should contact the nasa + inspector general (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write + nasa + inspector general + p.o. box 23089 + l'enfant plaza station + washington dc 20024 next: faq #3/15 - online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc. diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.data *** /tmp/,rcst1a06410 thu apr 1 14:47:26 1993 --- faq.data thu apr 1 14:46:54 1993 *** 216,237 **** telephone: (301) 286-6695 email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov - space and planetary image facility - available 24 hours a day via anonymous ftp from pioneer.unm.edu. has - approximately 150 cd-rom's full of imagery, raw, and tabular data. to - start, get the file: - pioneer.unm.edu:pub/info/beginner-info - this will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data - from their machine. beginner-info has been translated to other - languages, you should look inside pub/info for the particular language - that meets your needs. - contact help@pioneer.unm.edu. space telescope science institute electronic information service --- 216,221 ---- diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.math *** /tmp/,rcst1a06415 thu apr 1 14:47:28 1993 --- faq.math thu apr 1 14:46:56 1993 *** 60,65 **** --- 60,71 ---- gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a period + or - 300 years from now. pluto is included but stated to have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes. + _multiyear interactive computer almanac_ (mica), produced by the us + naval observatory. valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside us). + available for ibm (order #pb93-500163hdv) or macintosh (order + #pb93-500155hdv). from the ntis sales desk, (703)-487-4650. i believe + this is intended to replace the usno's interactive computer ephemeris. _interactive computer ephemeris_ (from the us naval observatory) distributed on ibm-pc floppy disks, $35 (willmann-bell). covers dates diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.references *** /tmp/,rcst1a06420 thu apr 1 14:47:30 1993 --- faq.references thu apr 1 14:46:59 1993 *** 93,100 **** us naval observatory 202-653-1079 (usno bulletin board via modem) 202-653-1507 general - 202-653-1545 nautical almanac office (info on the interactive - computer ephemeris) willmann-bell p.o. box 35025 --- 93,98 ---- *** 138,151 **** sdi's ssrt (single stage rocket technology) project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc-x that should fly in mid-1993. further development towards an operational single-stage to ! orbit vehicle is uncertain at present; for considerably more detail on ! the ssrt program, get the document ! ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/space/faq/deltaclipper ! by anonymous ftp or through the email server. how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international --- 136,151 ---- sdi's ssrt (single stage rocket technology) project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc-x that should fly in mid-1993. further development towards an operational single-stage to ! orbit vehicle (called delta clipper) is uncertain at present. ! an collection of pictures and files relating to dc-x is available by ! anonymous ftp or email server in the directory ! bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper + chris w. johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive. how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international *** 223,228 **** --- 223,236 ---- university press, 1970. information about the lunar orbiter missions, including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by various orbiters. + orbiting earth satellite histories + a list of earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is + available by anonymous ftp in: + ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/space/faq/satellites spacecraft models diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.addresses *** /tmp/,rcst1a06435 thu apr 1 14:47:34 1993 --- faq.addresses thu apr 1 14:46:51 1993 *** 75,80 **** --- 75,85 ---- the latter, an sf 171 is useless. employees are caltech employees, contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities. they offer an alternative to funding after other nasa centers. + a fact sheet and description of jpl is available by anonymous + ftp in + ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/space/faq/jpldescription nasa johnson manned space center (jsc) houston, tx 77058 diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.new_probes *** /tmp/,rcst1a06450 thu apr 1 14:47:38 1993 --- faq.new_probes thu apr 1 14:46:58 1993 *** 8,13 **** --- 8,19 ---- team, isas/nasda launch schedules, press kits. + asuka (astro-d) - isas (japan) x-ray astronomy satellite, launched into + earth orbit on 2/20/93. equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20 + angstrom) x-ray telescope, x-ray ccd cameras, and imaging gas + scintillation proportional counters. cassini - saturn orbiter and titan atmosphere probe. cassini is a joint nasa/esa project designed to accomplish an exploration of the saturnian system with its cassini saturn orbiter and huygens titan probe. cassini *** 98,115 **** magellan - venus radar mapping mission. has mapped almost the entire ! surface at high resolution. currently (11/92) in mapping cycle 4, ! collecting a global gravity map. mars observer - mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera. ! launched 9/24/92 on a titan iii/tos booster. mo is currently (3/93) in transit to mars, arriving on 8/24/93. operations will start 11/93 for one martian year (687 days). ! topex/poseidon - joint us/french earth observing satellite, launched in ! august 1992 on an ariane 4 booster. the primary objective of the topex/poseidon project is to make precise and accurate global observations of the sea level for several years, substantially increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. the satellite also --- 104,121 ---- magellan - venus radar mapping mission. has mapped almost the entire ! surface at high resolution. currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity ! map. mars observer - mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera. ! launched 9/25/92 on a titan iii/tos booster. mo is currently (4/93) in transit to mars, arriving on 8/24/93. operations will start 11/93 for one martian year (687 days). ! topex/poseidon - joint us/french earth observing satellite, launched ! 8/10/92 on an ariane 4 booster. the primary objective of the topex/poseidon project is to make precise and accurate global observations of the sea level for several years, substantially increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. the satellite also diff -t -c -r1.18 faq.astronaut *** /tmp/,rcst1a06465 thu apr 1 14:47:43 1993 --- faq.astronaut thu apr 1 14:46:52 1993 *** 162,174 **** specific standards: distant visual acuity: ! 20/100 or better uncorrected, correctable to 20/20, each eye. blood pressure: 140/90 measured in sitting position. ! 3. height between 60 and 76 inches. pilot astronaut candidate: --- 162,174 ---- specific standards: distant visual acuity: ! 20/150 or better uncorrected, correctable to 20/20, each eye. blood pressure: 140/90 measured in sitting position. ! 3. height between 58.5 and 76 inches. pilot astronaut candidate: 
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 archive-name: space/data last-modified: $date: 93/04/01 14:39:07 $ online and other sources of images, data, etc. a wide variety of images, data, catalogs, information releases, and other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net. a few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access, while the remainder support some form of file transfer. many sites are listed as providing 'anonymous ftp'. this refers to the file transfer protocol on the internet. sites not connected to the internet cannot use ftp directly, but there are a few automated ftp servers which operates via email. send mail containing only the word help to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com or bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu, and the servers will send you instructions on how to make requests. the sources with the broadest selection of material are the nasa ames space archive and the national space science data center. don't even ask for images to be posted to the net. the data volume is huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it. viewing images the possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly large, and i won't attempt to cover common formats (gif, etc.) here. to read pds and vicar (and many other) formats on unix systems running x, use xv 2.11, available by anonymous ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in contrib/xv-2.11.tar.z and the other standard x11 ftp the faq for the usenet group alt.binaries.pictures discusses image formats and how to get image viewing software. a copy of this document is available by anonymous ftp from the usenet faq archives at pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), in directory pub/usenet/alt.binaries.pictures. online archives nasa ames extensive archives are maintained at nasa ames and are available via anonymous ftp or an email server. these archives include many images and a wide variety of documents including this faq list, nasa press releases, shuttle launch advisories, and mission status reports. please note that these are not maintained on an official basis. ftp users should connect to ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) and look in pub/space. pub/space/index contains a listing of files available in the archive (the index is about 200k by itself). to access the archives by email, send a letter to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). in the subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like: send space index send space shuttle/ss01.23.91. the capitalization of the subdirectory names is important. all are in caps. only text files are handled by the email server at present; use one of the ftp email servers described in the introduction to this section for images or programs. the magellan venus and voyager jupiter, saturn, and uranus cd-rom image disks have been put online in the cdrom and cdrom2 directories. the disks will be rotated on a weekly basis. thousands of images are available in these collections. the gif directory contains images in gif format. the vicar directory contains magellan images in vicar format (these are also available in the gif directory). a pc program capable of displaying these files is found in the imdisp directory (see the item "viewing images" below). the nasa media guide describes the various nasa centers and how to contact their public affairs officers; this may be useful when pursuing specific information. it's in misc/media.guide. any problems with the archive server should be reported to peter yee (yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov). nasa astrophysics data system the ads is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and provides uniform access to ground-based and space-based astronomy data from nasa data centers across the country. it currently has over 140 data catalogs of radio, infrared, optical, uv, and x-ray data which can be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog. the ads also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results. in addition, ads has a beta version of an abstracts service which allows users to query over 125,000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors, keywords, title words, or abstract text words. ads use requires direct internet access. for more info and to sign up to become a user, email ads@cuads.coloradu.edu. the user's guide and "quickstart" guide are available by anonymous ftp to sao-ftp.harvard.edu in directory pub/ads/ads_user_guide (postscript files). contact carolyn stern grant (stern@cfa.harvard.edu). nasa jet propulsion lab (mission information and images) pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2) is an anonymous ftp site operated by the jpl public information office, containing news releases, status reports, fact sheets, images, and other data on jpl missions. it may also be reached by modem at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1 stop bit). contact newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170. nasa langley (technical reports) techreports.larc.nasa.gov is an anonymous ftp site offering technical reports. to get started, cd to directory pub/techreports/larc/92 and retrieve files readme and abstracts.92. most files are compressed postscript. the reports are also in a wais database with the following description: (:source :version 3 :ip-name "techreports.larc.nasa.gov" :tcp-port 210 :database-name "nasa-larc-abs" :cost 0.00 :cost-unit :free :maintainer "m.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov" :description "nasa langley research center technical reports contact tr-admin@techreports.larc.nasa.gov. nasa spacelink spacelink is an online service located at marshall space flight center in huntsville, alabama. the system is specifically designed for teachers. the data base is arranged to provide easy access to current and historical information on nasa aeronautics, space research, and technology transfer information. also included are suggested classroom activities that incorporate information on nasa projects to teach a number of scientific principles. unlike bulletin board systems, nasa spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers. however it does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments for nasa which may be answered by regular mail. messages are answered electronically, even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by mail. messages are generally handled the next working day except during missions when turnaround times increase. the mail system is closed-loop between the user and nasa. spacelink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs useful for science educators as well as space graphics and gif images from nasa's planetary probes and the hubble telescope. you can dial in at (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(v.32) baud, 8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit), or telnet to spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov (128.158.13.250, also known as xsl.msfc.nasa.gov) if you're on the internet. anonymous ftp capability (password guest) is now available. most of this information is also available from the ames server in directory spacelink. national space science data center (nssdc) the national space science data center is the official clearinghouse for nasa data. the data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online. internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.36.23) and log in as 'nodis' (no password). you can also get the catalog by sending email to 'request@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov'. you can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits, no parity, one stop). at the "enter number:" prompt, enter md and carriage return. when the system responds "call complete," enter a few more carriage returns to get the "username:" and log in as 'nodis' (no password). the system is menu-driven; topics available as of 3/93 are: 1 - master directory - nasa & global change 2 - personnel information management system 3 - nimbus-7 grid toms data 4 - interplanetary medium data (omni) 5 - request data and/or information from nssdc 6 - geophysical models 7 - canopus newsletter 8 - international ultraviolet explorer data request 9 - czcs browse and order utility 10 - astronomical data center (adc) 11 - step bulletin board service 12 - standards and technology information system 13 - planetary science & magellan project information 14 - other online data services at nssdc 15 - cd-roms available at nssdc for users with internet access, datasets are made available via anonymous ftp once you select the desired datasets from the online catalog. for other users, data may be ordered on cd-rom and in other formats. among the many types of data available are voyager, magellan, and other planetary images, earth observation data, and star catalogs. viewers for macintosh and ibm systems are also available. as an example of the cost, an 8 cd set of voyager images is $75. data may ordered online, by email, or by physical mail. the postal address is: national space science data center request coordination office goddard space flight center code 633 greenbelt, md 20771 telephone: (301) 286-6695 email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov space telescope science institute electronic information service stsci.edu (130.167.1.2) has a large amount of information about the hubble space telescope available by anonymous ftp, such as status reports and newsletters, in addition to material oriented towards hst observers and proposers. get the top level readme file to begin with. contact pete reppert (reppert@stsci.edu) or chris o'dea (odea@stsci.edu). the space telescope european coordination facility, at eso/garching provides on-line access to a huge astronomical database, featuring - observation log files of several satellites/telescopes (iue,iras,hst,ntt...). - spectra and images (iue, hst). - most of the astronomical catalogues (sao, hr, ngc, ppm, iras, veron, gsc and many others, more than 50) in a very convenient way (give center+radius+kind of objects, and you get the corresponding files!). log on as ``starcat'' (no password) on node stesis.hq.eso.org (134.171.8.100) or on stesis (decnet). the files created can be retreived by ftp. contact: benoit pirenne, bpirenne@eso.org (phone +49 89 320 06 433) at st-ecf astronomical databases the full sao stellar database is *not* available online, probably due to the 40 mb size. it may be ordered on magnetic tape from the nssdc. a subset containing position and magnitude only is available by ftp (see "astronomy programs" below). nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) has a large collection of astronomical programs for many types of computers, databases of stars and deep sky objects, and general astronomy information in directory /pub/astro. this site is mainly for european users, but overseas connections are the ames archives contain a database of 8,436 galaxies including name, ra, declination, magnitude, and radial velocity in misc/galaxy.dat. supplied by wayne hayes (wayne@csri.utoronto.ca). iris1.ucis.dal.ca (129.173.18.107) has a number of gifs from voyager, hubble, and other sources available by anonymous ftp in pub/gif (most of this data is also in space/gif on the ames server). please restrict access to 5pm - 8am atlantic time. pomona.claremont.edu has the yale bright star catalog for anonymous ftp in directory [.yale_bsc]. contact james dishaw (jdishaw@hmcvax.claremont.edu). the hubble guide star catalog is available on cd-rom for the mac and pc for $49.95 us (catalog # st101). astronomical society of the pacific 390 ashton ave. san francisco, ca 94112 phone: (415) 337-2624 9 am - 3 pm pacific time fax: (415) 337-5205 for german (and possibly other european) readers, jost jahn has a service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost. about 30-40 catalogs are available for dm 6..8/disk. several floppy disk formats are available. because of the expense of receiving email on his system, he asks that you contact him by physical mail: jost jahn neustaedter strasse 11 w-3123 bodenteich phone: frg-5824-3197 astronomy programs various astronomy-related programs and databases posted to the net in the past are archived for anonymous ftp at multiple sites, including ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9). also see the astro-ftp list posted to sci.astro monthly, which is more complete than this list. astonomical/space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.unix: volume 8: phoon moon phase and date routines volume 12,13: starchart starchart program & yale star data volume 15: moontool shows moon phase picture on suns volume 16: sao reduced sao catalog astonomical/space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.misc: volume 8: moon another moon phase program volume 11: starchart starchart program, version 3.2 volume 11: n3emo-orbit orbit: track earth satellites volume 12: starchart2 starchart program, update to version 3.2.1 volume 13: jupmoons plotter for jupiter's major moons [in perl] volume 13: lunisolar lunisolar (not sure what this does) volume 14: ephem-4.21 astronomical ephemeris, v4.21 volume 14: n3emo-orbit patch to orbit 3.7 volume 18: planet planet generation simulator elwood downey (e_downey@tasha.cca.cr.rockwell.com), the author of "ephem", has offered to mail copies to people who can't find it on one of the archives. xsat, an x window system based satellite tracking program, is available by anonymous ftp from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in contrib/xsat1.0.tar.z. contact dave curry (davy@ecn.purdue.edu) for more information. xsky, a computerized sky atlas for the x window system, is available for anonymous ftp on arizona.edu in the directory [.software.unix.xsky] as xsky.tarz. contact terry r. friedrichsen (terry@venus.sunquest.com) for more information. the "variable stars analysis software archive" is available via anonymous ftp from kauri.vuw.ac.nz (130.195.11.3) in directory pub/astrophys. this is intended for specialists in this field, and they would appreciate people from outside new zealand confining their ftp access to the astrophys directory, as they pay a significant amount for internet access. contents are relatively sparse at present due to the youth of the archive - contributions are encouraged. contact the archive administrator, timothy banks (bankst@kauri.vuw.ac.nz) for more the "idl astronomy users library" is available by anonymous ftp from idlastro.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.57.82). this is a central repository for general purpose astronomy procedures written in idl, a commercial image processing, plotting, and programming language. contact wayne landsman (landsman@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov) for more information. orbital element sets the most recent orbital elements from the nasa prediction bulletins are carried on the celestial bbs, (513)-427-0674. documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. the celestial bbs may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. orbital element sets are available via anonymous ftp from the following sites: archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) nasa,tvro,shuttle directory: /pub/space ftp.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) nasa,tvro,molczan,celbbs, directory: /pub/astro/pc/satel shuttle (*) kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.1.165) nasa,molczan directory: /pub/space/ space digest archives copies of back issues of space digest are archived on listserv@uga.bitnet. send mail containing the message "index space" to get an index of files; send it the message "get filename filetype" to get a particular file. landsat and nasa photos you can get black-and-white 1:1m prints, negatives, or positives for $10, $18, $12 respectively for any landsat data more than 2 years old from edc, (eros (earth resources orbiting satellite) data center). call them at (605)-594-6511. you get 80 meter resolution from the mss scanner, 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size. i think you have to select one band from (green, red, near ir, second near ir), but i'm not sure. digitial data is also available at higher prices. transparencies of all nasa photos available to the public can be borrowed from the nasa photo archive; you can have copies or prints nasa audio-visual facility 918 north rengstorff ave mountain view, ca 94043 (415)-604-6270 planetary maps the usgs address for maps of the planets is: u.s. geological survey, distribution branch, box 25286, federal center, bldg. 41 denver, co 80225 maps cost $2.40 to $3.10 per sheet (a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets). the best global maps of mars based on viking images are 1:15,000,000 scale in 3 sheets. these maps are: i-1535 (2 sheets only) - relief, albedo, names i-1535 i-1618 (3 sheets) - relief, names i-2030 (3 sheets) - relief, topographic contours i-1802-a,b,c (3 sheets) - geology there are many other maps as well: 30 sheets at 1:5,000,000 scale in relief, albedo, geology, photomosaic forms (not all 30 sheets available in all formats); 140 sheets at 1:2,000,000 scale as photomosaics of the whole planet, about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1:500,000 scale in photomosaic format, and lots of special sheets. then there are maps of mercury, venus, the moon, the four galilean satellites, six moons of saturn and five of uranus. [phil stooke (stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca), the author of this item, has offered to respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar and planetary maps.] cometary orbit data the central bureau for astronomical telegrams and the minor planet center announce the sixth edition of the catalogue of cometary orbits in iau circular 4935. the catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent all known comets through november 1989 and is 96 pages long. non-subscribers to the circulars may purchase the catalogue for $15.00 while the cost to subscribers is $7.50. the basic catalogue in ascii along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate ephemerides is available on ms-dos 5.25-inch 2s2d diskette at a cost of $75.00 (the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor). the catalogue alone is also available by e-mail for $37.50 or on magnetic tape for $300.00. except for the printed version of the catalogue, the various magnetic media or e-mail forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion non-subscribers. it is possible that these forms of the catalogue may not be available to non-subscribers or that their prices may be more expensive than those given. mail requests for specific information and orders to: central bureau for astronomical telegrams smithsonian astrophysical observatory cambridge, ma 02138, usa next: faq #4/15 - performing calculations and interpreting data formats 
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 archive-name: space/references last-modified: $date: 93/04/01 14:39:21 $ references on specific areas publishers of space/astronomy material astronomical society of the pacific 1290 24th avenue san francisco, ca 94122 more expensive but better organized slide sets. cambridge university press 32 east 57th street new york, ny 10022 crawford-peters aeronautica p.o. box 152528 san diego, ca 92115 (619) 287-3933 an excellent source of all kinds of space publications. they publish a number of catalogs, including: aviation and space, 1945-1962 aviation and space, 1962-1990 space and related titles european southern observatory information and photographic service dr r.m. west karl scharzschild strasse 2 d-8046 garching bei munchen slide sets, posters, photographs, conference proceedings. finley holiday film corporation 12607 east philadelphia street whittier, california 90601 (213)945-3325 (800)films-07 wide selection of apollo, shuttle, viking, and voyager slides at ~50 cents/slide. call for a catalog. hansen planetarium (utah) said to hold sales on old slide sets. look in sky & telescope for contact info. lunar and planetary institute 3303 nasa road one houston, tx 77058-4399 technical, geology-oriented slide sets, with supporting john wiley & sons 605 third avenue new york, ny 10158-0012 sky publishing corporation po box 9111 belmont, ma 02178-9111 offers "sky catalogue 2000.0" on pc floppy with information (including parallax) for 45000 stars. roger wheate geography dept. university of calgary, alberta canada t2n 1n4 (403)-220-4892 (403)-282-7298 (fax) wheate@uncamult.bitnet offers a 40-slide set called "mapping the planets" illustrating recent work in planetary cartography, comes with a booklet and information on getting your own copies of the maps. $50 canadian, shipping included. superintendent of documents us government printing office washington, dc 20402 univelt, inc. p. o. box 28130 san diego, ca. 92128 publishers for the american astronomical society. us naval observatory 202-653-1079 (usno bulletin board via modem) 202-653-1507 general willmann-bell p.o. box 35025 richmond, virginia 23235 usa (804)-320-7016 9-5 est m-f careers in the space industry in 1990 the princeton planetary society published the first edition of "space jobs: the guide to careers in space-related fields." the publication was enormously successful: we distributed 2000 copies to space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in great britain, australia, and ecuador. due to the tremendous response to the first edition, pps has published an expanded, up-to-date second edition of the guide. the 40-page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and full-time job opportunities as well as graduate school programs. the second edition of "space jobs" features strategies for entering the space field and describes positions at consulting and engineering firms, nasa, and non-profit organizations. the expanded special section on graduate schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing to space policy. additional sections include tips on becoming an astronaut and listings of nasa space grant fellowships and consortia, as well as nasa centers for the commercial development of space. to order send check or money order made payable to princeton planetary society for $4 per copy, plus $1 per copy for shipping and handling (non-us customers send an international money order payable in us dollars) to: princeton planetary society 315 west college princeton university princeton, nj 08544 dc-x single-stage to orbit (ssto) program sdi's ssrt (single stage rocket technology) project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc-x that should fly in mid-1993. further development towards an operational single-stage to orbit vehicle (called delta clipper) is uncertain at present. an collection of pictures and files relating to dc-x is available by anonymous ftp or email server in the directory bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper chris w. johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive. how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international astronomical union, and are not for sale. there are purely commercial organizations which will, for a fee, send you pretty certificates and star maps describing where to find "your" star. these organizations have absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they assign are not used by anyone else. it's also likely that you won't be able to see "your" star without binoculars or a telescope. see the back pages of astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact info; one such organization may be found at: international star registry 34523 wilson road ingleside, il 60041 this is not an endorsement of isr. llnl "great exploration" the llnl "great exploration", a plan for an on-the-cheap space station, lunar base, and mars mission using inflatable space structures, excited a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time. some references cited during net discussion were: avation week jan 22, 1990 for an article on the overall great nasa assessment of the llnl space exploration proposal and llnl responses by dr. lowell wood llnl doc. no. ss 90-9. their address is: po box 808 livermore, ca 94550 (the nasa authors are unknown). briefing slides of a presentation to the nrc last december may be available. write llnl and ask. conceptual design study for modular inflatable space structures, a final report for purchase order b098747 by ilc dover inc. i don't know how to get this except from llnl or ilc dover. i don't have an address for ilc. lunar prospector lunar exploration inc. (lei) is a non-profit corporation working on a privately funded lunar polar orbiter. lunar prospector is designed to perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the poles. a set of reference files describing the project is available in ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/space/lei/* lunar science and activities grant h heiken, david t vaniman, and bevan m french (editors), "lunar sourcebook, a user's guide to the moon", cambridge university press 1991, isbn 0-521-33444-6; hardcover; expensive. a one-volume encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the moon, reviewing current knowledge in considerable depth, with copious references. heavy emphasis on geology, but a lot more besides, including considerable discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to future mission design. *the* reference book for the moon; all others are wendell mendell (ed), "lunar bases and space activities of the 21st century", $15. "every serious student of lunar bases *must* have this book" - bill higgins. available from: lunar and planetary institute 3303 nasa road one houston, tx 77058-4399 if you want to order books, call (713)486-2172. thomas a. mutch, "geology of the moon: a stratigraphic view", princeton university press, 1970. information about the lunar orbiter missions, including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by various orbiters. orbiting earth satellite histories a list of earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is available by anonymous ftp in: ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/space/faq/satellites spacecraft models "space in miniature #2: gemini" by michael j. mackowski 1621 waterwood lane, st. louis, mo 63146 $7.50 only 34pp but enough pictures & diagrams to interest more than just the modelling community, i feel. marco's miniatures of dracut, mass. have produced a 1/144 skylab in an edition of 500 & a 1/48 lunar rover (same scale as monogram and revell lunar modules) in a similar edition. prices are $45 for skylab, $24 for lrv. check with them for postage etc. i have no connection with them, but have found their service to be good and their stock of rare/old kits *is* impressive. prices range from reasonable ($35 for monogram 1/32 scale apollo csm with cutaway details) to spectacular ($145 for airfix vostok). four star collectibles p.o. box 658 dracut mass 01826, usa. (508)-957-0695. voyager, hst, viking, lunar rover etc. kits from: lunar models 5120 grisham rowlett, texas 75088 (214)-475-4230 as reviewed by bob kaplow: peter alway's book "scale model rocketry" is now available. mine arrived in the mail earlier this week. to get your own copy, send $19.95 + $2.50 s/h ($22.45 total) to: peter alway 2830 pittsfield ann arbor, mi 48104 the book includes information on collecting scale data, construction of scale models, and several handy tables. appendicies include plans for 3 sport scale models, a 1:9.22 d region tomahawk (bt50), a 1/40 v-2 (bt60), and a 1/9.16 aerobee 150a (bt55/60). i've only begun to study the book, but it certainly will be a valuable data source for many modellers. most vehicles include several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the rocket, various specs including "nar" engine classification, along with a dimensioned drawing, color layouts & paint pattern, and a black & white photograph. the vehicles included are the aerobee 150a, aerobee 300, aerobee hi, arcas, asp, astrobee 1500, astrobee d, atlas centaur, atlas-agena, atlas-score, baby wac, d-region tomahawk, deacon rockoon, delta b, delta e, gemini-titan ii, iris, javelin, juno 1, juno 2, little joe 1, little joe 2, mercury-atlas, mercury-redstone, nike-apache, nike-asp, nike-cajun, nike-deacon, nike-tomahawk, ram b, saturn 1 block 1, saturn 1 block 2, saturn 1b, saturn 5, scout, standard aerobee, terrapin, thor-able, titan iii c, titan iii e, trailblazer 1, v-2, vanguard, viking model 1, viking model 2, and wac corporal. rocket propulsion george p. sutton, "rocket propulsion elements", 5th edn, wiley-interscience 1986, isbn 0-471-80027-9. pricey textbook. the best (nearly the only) modern introduction to the technical side of rocketry. a good place to start if you want to know the details. not for the math-shy. straight chemical rockets, essentially nothing on more advanced propulsion (although earlier editions reportedly had some coverage). dieter k. huzel and david h. huang, "design of liquid propellant rocket engines", nasa sp-125. ntis n71-29405 pc a20/mf a01 1971 461p out of print; reproductions may be obtained through the ntis (expensive). the complete and authoritative guide to designing liquid-fuel engines. reference #1 in most chapters of sutton. heavy emphasis on practical issues, what works and what doesn't, what the typical values of the fudge factors are. stiff reading, massive detail; written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers. spacecraft design brij n. agrawal, "design of geosynchronous spacecraft", prentice-hall, isbn 0-13-200114-4. james r. wertz ed, "spacecraft attitude determination and control", kluwer, isbn 90-277-1204-2. p.r.k. chetty, "satellite technology and its applications", mcgraw-hill, isbn 0-8306-9688-1. james r. wertz and wiley j. larson (editors), "space mission analysis and design", kluwer academic publishers (dordrecht/boston/london) 1991, isbn 0-7923-0971-5 (paperback), or 0-7923-0970-7 (hardback). this looks at system-level design of a spacecraft, rather than detailed design. 23 chapters, 4 appendices, about 430 pages. it leads the reader through the mission design and system-level design of a fictitious earth-observation satellite, to illustrate the principles that it tries to convey. warning: although the book is chock-full of many useful reference tables, some of the numbers in at least one of those tables (launch costs for various launchers) appear to be quite wrong. can be ordered by telephone, using a credit card; kluwer's phone number is (617)-871-6600. cost $34.50. esoteric propulsion schemes (solar sails, lasers, fusion...) this needs more and more up-to-date references, but it's a start. antimatter: "antiproton annihilation propulsion", robert forward afrpl tr-85-034 from the air force rocket propulsion laboratory (afrpl/xrx, stop 24, edwards air force base, ca 93523-5000). ntis ad-a160 734/0 pc a10/mf a01 pc => paper copy, a10 => $us57.90 -- or maybe price code? mf => microfiche, a01 => $us13.90 technical study on making, holding, and using antimatter for near-term (30-50 years) propulsion systems. excellent bibliography. forward is the best-known proponent of antimatter. this also may be available as udr-tr-85-55 from the contractor, the university of dayton research institute, and dtic ad-a160 from the defense technical information center, defense logistics agency, cameron station, alexandria, va 22304-6145. and it's also available from the ntis, with yet another number. "advanced space propulsion study, antiproton and beamed power propulsion", robert forward afal tr-87-070 from the air force astronautics laboratory, dtic #ad-a189 218. ntis ad-a189 218/1 pc a10/mf a01 summarizes the previous paper, goes into detail on beamed power systems including " 1) pellet, microwave, and laser beamed power systems for intersteller transport; 2) a design for a near-relativistic laser-pushed lightsail using near-term laser technology; 3) a survey of laser thermal propulsion, tether transportation systems, antiproton annihilation propulsion, exotic applications of solar sails, and laser-pushed interstellar lightsails; 4) the status of antiproton annihilation propulsion as of 1986; and 5) the prospects for obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons." again, there is an extensive bibliography. "application of antimatter - electric power to interstellar propulsion", g. d. nordley, jbis interstellar studies issue of 6/90. bussard ramjets and related methods: g. l. matloff and a. j. fennelly, "interstellar applications and limitations of several electrostatic/electromagnetic ion collection techniques", jbis 30 (1977):213-222 n. h. langston, "the erosion of interstellar drag screens", jbis 26 (1973): 481-484 c. powell, "flight dynamics of the ram-augmented interstellar rocket", jbis 28 (1975):553-562 a. r. martin, "the effects of drag on relativistic spacefight", jbis 25 (1972):643-652 fusion: "a laser fusion rocket for interplanetary propulsion", roderick hyde, llnl report ucrl-88857. (contact the technical information dept. at livermore) fusion pellet design: fuel selection. energy loss mechanisms. pellet compression metrics. thrust chamber: magnetic nozzle. shielding. tritium breeding. thermal modeling. fusion driver (lasers, particle beams, etc): heat rejection. vehicle summary: mass estimates. vehicle performance: interstellar travel required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusion's capability. interplanetary missions are limited by power/weight ratio. trajectory modeling. typical mission profiles. references, including the 1978 report in jbis, "project daedalus", and several on icf and driver technology. "fusion as electric propulsion", robert w. bussard, journal of propulsion and power, vol. 6, no. 5, sept.-oct. 1990 fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion systems, with propulsion thrust-power-input-power ratio (the thrust-power "gain" g(t)) much greater than unity. gain values of conventional (solar, fission) electric propulsion systems are always quite small (e.g., g(t)<0.8). with these, "high-thrust" interplanetary flight is not possible, because system acceleration (a(t)) capabilities are always less than the local gravitational acceleration. in contrast, gain values 50-100 times higher are found for some fusion concepts, which offer "high-thrust" flight capability. one performance example shows a 53.3 day (34.4 powered; 18.9 coast), one-way transit time with 19% payload for a single-stage earth/mars vehicle. another shows the potential for high acceleration (a(t)=0.55g(o)) flight in earth/moon space. "the qed engine system: direct electric fusion-powered systems for aerospace flight propulsion" by robert w. bussard, emc2-1190-03, available from energy/matter conversion corp., 9100 a. center street, manassas, va 22110. [this is an introduction to the application of bussard's version of the farnsworth/hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion technology to propulsion. 1500<isp<5000 sec. farnsworth/hirsch demonstrated a 10**10 neutron flux with their device back in 1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising stability of the soviet tokamak. hirsch, responsible for the panic, has recently recanted and is back working on qed. -- jim bowery] "plasmaktm star power for energy intensive space applications", by paul m. koloc, eight ans topical meeting on technology of fusion energy, special issue fusion technology, march 1989. aneutronic energy (fusion with little or negligible neutron flux) requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times larger than can be delivered by current approaches. if plasma pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds could be achieved in aneutronic fuels, then high power densities and very compact, realtively clean burning engines for space and other special applications would be at hand. the plasmaktm innovation will make this possible; its unique pressure efficient structure, exceptional stability, fluid-mechanically compressible mantle and direct inductive mhd electric power conversion advantages are described. peak burn densities of tens of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the multi-gigawatt electric output size. engineering advantages indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost. [i strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously. bob hirsch, the primary proponent of the tokamak, has recently declared koloc's plasmaktm precursor, the spheromak, to be one of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather than tokamak. aside from the preceeding appeal to authority, the plasmaktm looks like it finally models ball-lightning with solid mhd physics. -- jim bowery] ion drives: retrieve files pub/space/spacelink/6.5.2.* from the ames space archive; these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the sert i and ii missions, which flight-tested cesium ion thrusters in the 1960s and 70s. there are numerous references. mass drivers (coilguns, railguns): ieee transactions on magnetics (for example, v. 27 no. 1, january 1991 issue). every so often they publish the proceedings of the symposium on electromagnetic launcher technology, including hundreds of papers on the subject. it's a good look at the state of the art, though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners. anybody know some good review papers? nuclear rockets (fission): "technical notes on nuclear rockets", by bruce w. knight and donald kingsbury, unpublished. may be available from: donald kingsbury, math dept., mcgill university, po box 6070, station a, montreal, quebec m3c 3g1 canada. solar sails: starsailing. solar sails and interstellar travel. louis friedman, wiley, new york, 1988, 146 pp., paper $9.95. (not very technical, but an adequate overview.) "roundtrip interstellar travel using laser-pushed lightsails (journal of spacecraft and rockets, vol. 21, pp. 187-95, jan.-feb. 1984) tethers: _tethers and asteroids for artificial gravity assist in the solar system,_ by p.a. penzo and h.l. mayer., _journal of spacecraft and rockets_ for jan-feb 1986. details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 km/sec. if it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid. general: "alternate propulsion energy sources", robert forward afprl tr-83-067. ntis ad-b088 771/1 pc a07/mf a01 dec 83 138p hydrogen, solar pumped (sic) plasmas, antiproton annihiliation, ionospheric lasers, solar sails, perforated sails, microwave sails, quantum fluctuations, antimatter rockets... it's a wide, if not deep, look at exotic energy sources which might be useful for space propulsion. it also considers various kinds of laser propulsion, metallic hydrogen, tethers, and unconventional nuclear propulsion. the bibliographic information, pointing to the research on all this stuff, belongs on every daydreamer's future magic. dr. robert l. forward, avon, 1988. isbn 0-380-89814-4. nontechnical discussion of tethers, antimatter, gravity control, and even futher-out topics. spy satellites *deep black*, by william burrows; "best modern general book for spysats." 1) a base for debate: the us satellite station at nurrungar, des ball, allen and unwin australia, 1987 isbn 0 04 355027 4 [ covers dsp early warning satellites] 2) pine gap: australia and the us geostationary signals intelligence satellite program, des ball, allen and unwin australia, 1988 isbn 0 04 363002 5. [covers rhyolite/aquacade, chalet/vortex, and magnum signals intelligence satellites] 3) guardians: strategic reconnaissance satellites, curtis peebles, 1987, ian allan, isbn 0 7110 17654 [ good on mol, military salyut and soviet satellites, less so on others. tends to believe what he's told so flaws in discussion of dsp, rhyolite et al..] 4) america's secret eyes in space: the keyhole spy satellite program, jeffrey richelson, 1990, harper and row, isbn 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class of its own, *the* historical reference on the keyhole satellites] 5) secret sentries in space, philip j klass, 1971. "long out of print but well worth a look" space shuttle computer systems %j communications of the acm %v 27 %n 9 %d september 1984 %k special issue on space [shuttle] computers %a myron kayton %t avionics for manned spacecraft %j ieee transactions on aerospace and electronic systems %v 25 %n 6 %d november 1989 %p 786-827 other various aiaa and ieee publications. computers in spaceflight: the nasa experience james e. tomayko seti computation (signal processing) %a d. k. cullers %a ivan r. linscott %a bernard m. oliver %t signal processing in seti %j communications of the acm %v 28 %n 11 %d november 1984 %p 1151-1163 %k cr categories and subject descriptors: d.4.1 [operating systems]: process management - concurrency; i.5.4 [pattern recognition]: applications - signal processing; j.2 [phsyical sciences and engineering]: general terms: design additional key words and phrases: digital fourier transforms, finite impulse-response filters, interstellar communications, search for extra-terrestrial intelligence, signal detection, spectrum analysis amateur satellies & weather satellites a fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite photos is available from the ames space archive in pub/space/faq/weatherphotos. the american radio relay league publication service offers the following references (also see the section on amsat in the space groups segment of the faq): arrl satellite experimenters handbook, #3185, $20 arrl weather satellite handbook, #3193, $20 ibm-pc software for weather satellite handbook, #3290, $10 amsat na 5th space symposium, #0739, $12 amsat na 6th space symposium, #2219, $12 shipping is extra. the american radio relay league publications department 225 main street newington, ct 06111 (203)-666-1541 srinivas bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides, available from the ames space archive in pub/space/faq/tides. it covers the following areas: - 2-d example of tidal deformation - treatment of tidal fields in practice - long term evolution of the earth-moon system under tides the writeup refers to the following texts: "geophysical geodesy" by k. lambeck "tides of the planet earth" by p. melchior next: faq #6/15 - constants and equations for calculations 
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<instance id="sci.space59906">
<answer instance="sci.space59906" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 archive-name: space/launchers last-modified: $date: 93/04/01 14:39:11 $ orbital and planetary launch services the following data comes from _international reference guide to space launch systems_ by steven j. isakowitz, 1991 edition. notes: * unless otherwise specified, leo and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm * reliablity data includes launches through dec, 1990. reliabity for a familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when * prices are in millions of 1990 $us and are subject to change. * only operational vehicle families are included. individual vehicles which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk (*) if a vehicle had first launch after publication of my data, it may still be marked with an asterisk. vehicle | payload kg (lbs) | reliability | price | launch site (nation) | leo polar gto | | | (lat. & long.) ariane 35/40 87.5% kourou (esa) (5.2 n, 52.8 w) ar40 4,900 3,900 1,900 1/1 $65m (10,800) (8,580) (4,190) ar42p 6,100 4,800 2,600 1/1 $67m (13,400) (10,600) (5,730) ar44p 6,900 5,500 3,000 0/0 ? $70m (15,200) (12,100) (6,610) ar42l 7,400 5,900 3,200 0/0 ? $90m (16,300) (13,000) (7,050) ar44lp 8,300 6,600 3,700 6/6 $95m (18,300) (14,500) (8,160) ar44l 9,600 7,700 4,200 3/4 $115m (21,100) (16,900) (9,260) * ar5 18,000 ??? 6,800 0/0 $105m (39,600) (15,000) [300nm] atlas 213/245 86.9% cape canaveral (usa) (28.5 n, 81.0w) atlas e -- 820 -- 15/17 $45m vandeberg afb (1,800) (34.7 n, 120.6w) atlas i 5,580 4,670 2,250 1/1 $70m (12,300) (10,300) (4,950) atlas ii 6,395 5,400 2,680 0/0 $75m (14,100) (11,900) (5,900) atlas iia 6,760 5,715 2,810 0/0 $85m (14,900) (12,600) (6,200) * atlas iias 8,390 6,805 3,490 0/0 $115m (18,500) (15,000) (7,700) delta 189/201 94.0% cape canaveral (usa) vandenberg afb delta 6925 3,900 2,950 1,450 14/14 $45m (8,780) (6,490) (3,190) delta 7925 5,045 3,830 1,820 1/1 $50m (11,100) (8,420) (2,000) energia 2/2 100% baikonur (russia) (45.6 n 63.4 e) energia 88,000 80,000 ??? 2/2 $110m (194,000) (176,000) h series 22/22 100% tangeshima (japan) (30.2 n 130.6 e) * h-2 10,500 6,600 4,000 0/0 $110m (23,000) (14,500) (8,800) kosmos 371/377 98.4% plestek (russia) (62.8 n 40.1 e) kosmos 1100 - 1350 (2300 - 3000) $??? kapustin yar [400 km orbit ??? inclination] (48.4 n 45.8 e) long march 23/25 92.0% jiquan slc (china) (41 n 100 e) * cz-1d 720 ??? 200 0/0 $10m xichang slc (1,590) (440) (28 n 102 e) taiyuan slc cz-2c 3,200 1,750 1,000 12/12 $20m (41 n 100 e) (7,040) (3,860) (2,200) cz-2e 9,200 ??? 3,370 1/1 $40m (20,300) (7,430) * cz-2e/ho 13,600 ??? 4,500 0/0 $??? (29,900) (9,900) cz-3 ??? ??? 1,400 6/7 $33m (3,100) * cz-3a ??? ??? 2,500 0/0 $???m (5,500) cz-4 4,000 ??? 1,100 2/2 $???m (8,800) (2,430) pegasus/taurus 2/2 100% peg: b-52/l1011 (usa) taur: canaveral pegasus 455 365 125 2/2 $10m or vandenberg (1,000) (800) (275) * taurus 1,450 1,180 375 0/0 $15m (3,200) (2,600) (830) proton 164/187 87.7% baikonour (russia) proton 20,000 ??? 5,500 164/187 $35-70m (44,100) (12,200) scout 99/113 87.6% vandenberg afb (usa) wallops ff scout g-1 270 210 54 13/13 $12m (37.9 n 75.4 w) (600) (460) (120) san marco (2.9 s 40.3 e) * enhanced scout 525 372 110 0/0 $15m (1,160) (820) (240) shavit 2/2 100% palmachim afb (israel) ( ~31 n) shavit ??? 160 ??? 2/2 $22m (350) space shuttle 37/38 97.4% kennedy space (usa) center shuttle/srb 23,500 ??? 5,900 37/38 $248m (28.5 n 81.0 w) (51,800) (13,000) [fy88] * shuttle/asrm 27,100 ??? ??? 0/0 (59,800) slv 2/6 33.3% shar center (india) (400km) (900km polar) (13.9 n 80.4 e) aslv 150 ??? ??? 0/2 $???m (330) * pslv 3,000 1,000 450 0/0 $???m (6,600) (2,200) (990) * gslv 8,000 ??? 2,500 0/0 $???m (17,600) (5,500) titan 160/172 93.0% cape canaveral (usa) vandenberg titan ii ??? 1,905 ??? 2/2 $43m (4,200) titan iii 14,515 ??? 5,000 2/3 $140m (32,000) (11,000) titan iv/srm 17,700 14,100 6,350 3/3 $154m-$227m (39,000) (31,100) (14,000) titan iv/srmu 21,640 18,600 8,620 0/0 $???m (47,700) (41,000) (19,000) vostok 1358/1401 96.9% baikonur (russia) [650km] plesetsk vostok 4,730 1,840 ??? ?/149 $14m (10,400) (4,060) soyuz 7,000 ??? ??? ?/944 $15m (15,400) molniya 1500kg (3300 lbs) in ?/258 $???m highly eliptical orbit zenit 12/13 92.3% baikonur (russia) zenit 13,740 11,380 4,300 12/13 $65m (30,300) (25,090) (9,480) 
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<instance id="sci.space60151">
<answer instance="sci.space60151" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 titan iv launches ain't cheap granted. but that's because titan iv's are bought by the governemnt. titan iii is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all us expendable in that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial market. is there a single titan iii on order? the problem with commercial titan is that mm has made little or no attempt to market it. they're basically happy with their government business and don't want to have to learn how to sell commercially. a secondary problem is that it is a bit big. they'd need to go after multi-satellite launches, a la ariane, and that complicates the marketing task quite significantly. they also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time to get them started properly. if memory serves, the pad used for the mars observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had prevented launches from it for a year or so. there have been a few ct launches. mars observer was one of them. so was that stranded intelsat, and at least one of its brothers that reached orbit properly. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space60154">
<answer instance="sci.space60154" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i have the "osculating elements at perigee" of an orbit, which i need to convert to something useful, preferably distance from the earth in evenly spaced time intervals. a gsm coordinate system is preferable, but i convert from other systems. c, pascal, or fortran code, or if you can point me to a book or something that'd be great. here's the first few lines of the file. 0 () 1 (2x, a3, 7x, a30) 2 (2x, i5, 2x, a3, 2x, e24.18) 3 (4x, a3, 7x, e24.18) 1 sma semi-major axis 1 ecc eccentricity 1 inc inclination 1 omg ra of ascending node 1 pom argument of pericentre 1 tra true anomaly 1 hap apocentre height 1 hpe pericentre height 2 3 beg 0.167290000000000000e+05 3 sma 0.829159999999995925e+05 3 ecc 0.692307999999998591e+00 3 inc 0.899999999999999858e+02 3 omg 0.184369999999999994e+03 3 pom 0.336549999999999955e+03 3 tra 0.359999999999999943e+03 3 hap 0.133941270127999174e+06 3 hpe 0.191344498719999910e+05 2 1 ref 0.167317532658774153e+05 3 sma 0.829125167527418671e+05 3 ecc 0.691472268118590319e+00 3 inc 0.899596754214342091e+02 3 omg 0.184377521828175002e+03 3 pom 0.336683788851850579e+03 3 tra 0.153847166458030088e-05 3 hap 0.133866082767180880e+06 3 hpe 0.192026707383028306e+05 thanks in advance, larry kepko lkepko@igpp.ucla.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60155">
<answer instance="sci.space60155" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being built is that there isn't any reason to do so. natural uranium is still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks technically reasonable. november/december, 1987 page 21 - "science and technology in japan". seawater uranium recovery experiment "the ground uranium reserves are estimated at about 3.6 million tons, and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the end of the 20th century. in japan, a resources poor country, technological development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in seawater. the total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated to be about 4.6 billion tons, a huge amount when compared with ground uranium reserves......." i hate to pour cold water on this, but currently seawater extracted uranium, even using the new, improved fiber absorbers from japan, is about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market. uranium is *very* cheap right now, around $10/lb. right now, there are mines closing because they can't compete with places like cigar lake in canada (where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards to the mines, who work in shielded vehicles). plenty of other sources (for example, uranium from phosphate processing) would come on line before uranium reached $200/lb. "demand and supply balance will collapse" is nonsense. supply and demand always balance; what changes is the price. is uranium going to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century? not bloody likely. new nuclear reactors are not being built at a sufficient rate. uranium from seawater is interesting, but it's a long term project, or a project that the japanese might justify on grounds of self-sufficiency. paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60156">
<answer instance="sci.space60156" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [questions and issues wrt congress raised and discussed} dennis replies; now black when it is white is just white. except that when black is called white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is justified to call black, white. it is also apparant that when white is called black, just the opposite occurs. now white is a color, but when white is called black, it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum. it is a given however that nasa nor the military, whose competence in differentating black from white is well known (remember the black and white paint on the saturn v rocket?) that nothing will occur here either. when black and white are used by congress, who cares nothing for results, just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the black/white controversy.... dennis, why must you always see things in black and white terms? :-) -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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<instance id="sci.space60161">
<answer instance="sci.space60161" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am doing a political science paper on the funding of nasa and pork-barrel politics. i would be interested in information about funding practices and histories of some of the major programs (apollo, sts, ssf, etc) and the funding of ssto to contrast. could someone please recommend some sources that would be useful? thank you. sean gallagher gallas2@rpi.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60162">
<answer instance="sci.space60162" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 on date: 01 apr 93 18:03:12 gmt, ralph buttigieg <ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au> /why can't the government just be a tennant? private commercial concerns /could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government /financed researchers wanting to use it. i believe that this was the thought behind the industrial space facility. i don't remember all the details, but i think space services (?) wanted nasa to sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but nasa didn't like the deal. (i'm sure i'll hear about it if i'm wrong!) disclaimer: opinions stated are solely my own (unless i change my mind). ben muniz munizb%rwtms2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com w(818)586-3578 space station freedom:rocketdyne/rockwell:structural loads and dynamics "man will not fly for fifty years": wilbur to orville wright, 1901 
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<instance id="sci.space60165">
<answer instance="sci.space60165" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of vulcan? all that i know is that there were apparently two sightings at drastically different times of a small planet that was inside mercury's orbit. beyond that, i have no other info. does anyone know anything more specific? as i heard the story, before albert came up the the theory o'relativity and warped space, nobody could account for mercury's orbit. it ran a little fast (i think) for simple newtonian physics. with the success in finding neptune to explain the odd movments of uranus, it was postulated that there might be another inner planet to explain mercury's orbit. it's unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the sun than mercury. i'm sure we would have spotted it by now. perhaps some professionals can confirm that. /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | heaven, n.: | | a place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk | | of their own personal affairs, and the good listen with | | attention while you expound your own. | | ambrose bierce, "the devil's dictionary" | 
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<instance id="sci.space60166">
<answer instance="sci.space60166" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 according the iau circular #5744, comet shoemaker-levy 1993e, may be temporarily in orbit around jupiter. the comet had apparently made a close flyby of jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the comet. attempts to determine the comet's orbit has been complicated by the near impossibility of measuring the comet's center of mass. am i missing something -- what does knowing the comet's center of mass do for you in orbit determination? i'm not sure, but it almost sounds like they can't figure out where the _nucleus_ is within the coma. if they're off by a couple hundred miles, well, you can imagine the rest... phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space60168">
<answer instance="sci.space60168" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this might a real wierd idea or maybe not.. i have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them that then drys and makes hard walls... why not do the same thing for a space station.. fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such, blow up the baloons, spin then around (i know a problem in micro gravity) let them dry/cure/harden? and cut a hole for the docking/attaching ring and bingo a space station.. of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation protective covering/heat shield(?) and the material used to make the wals would have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paint/covering of the inner wall would have to be human safe.. maybe a special congrete or maybe the same material as makes caplets but with some changes (saw where someone instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture, got a mix that was just as strong as congret but easier to carry around and such..) sorry for any spelling errors, i missed school today.. (grin).. why musta space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not earth, why be limited by earth based ideas?? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked going crazy in nome alaska, break up is here.. 
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<instance id="sci.space60169">
<answer instance="sci.space60169" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how 'bout some more info on that alleged supernova in m-81? i might just break out the scope for this one. "no sir, i don't like it! "-- mr. horse dan kelo dkelo@pepvax.pepperdine.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60171">
<answer instance="sci.space60171" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how difficult would it be to set up your own ground station? ground station for *what*? at one extreme, some of the amateur-radio satellites have sometimes been reachable with hand-held radios. at the other, nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on galileo. please be more specific. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry specific: basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do.. monitor, and control if need be the shuttle... such as the one in australia and such.... michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60173">
<answer instance="sci.space60173" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 any comments on the absorbtion of the office of exploration into the office of space sciences and the reassignment of griffin to the "chief engineer" position? is this just a meaningless administrative shuffle, or does this bode ill for sei? in my opinion, this seems like a bad thing, at least on the surface. griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to getting things done faster, better, and cheaper. it's unclear to me whether he will be able to do this at his new position. does anyone know what his new duties will be? first i've heard of it. offhand: griffin is no longer an "office" head, so that's bad. on the other hand: regress seemed to think: we can't fund anything by griffin, because that would mean (and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the $ 400 billion mars mission to prove it) that we would be buying into a mission to mars that would cost 400 billion. therefore there will be no artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera... they were killing griffin's main program simply because some sycophants somewhere had congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into the same old stuff. sorta like not giving aid to yeltsin because he's a communist hardliner. at least now the sort of reforms griffin was trying to bring forward won't be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded ghetto. that griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very good. and if he brings something up, noone can say "why don't you go back to the ose where you belong" (and where he couldn't even get money for design studies). phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space60175">
<answer instance="sci.space60175" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 sounds liek what the fed has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a commerical company or consortium of companies (such as like alyeska) for a small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such.. such as tax and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products.. the commerical builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier (taxes , contracts, regulatory concesions and such..) is it workable, just might work.. after all, if china can lease out hong kong and the people of hong kong can make money, this could work.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space60176">
<answer instance="sci.space60176" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 would someone please send me james oberg's email address, if he has one and if someone reading this list knows it? i wanted to send him a comment on something in his terraforming book. paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu potential explosive yield of the annual global production of borax: 5 million megatons 
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<instance id="sci.space60177">
<answer instance="sci.space60177" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the supersonic booms hear a few months ago over i belive san fran, heading east of what i heard, some new super speed mach 25 aircraft?? what military based int he direction of flight are there that could handle a mach 25aircraft on its landing decent?? odd question?? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60180">
<answer instance="sci.space60180" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [excellent discussion of dc-x landing techniques by henry deleted] since the dc-x is to take off horizontal, why not land that way?? the dc-x will not take of horizontally. it takes of vertically. why do the martian landing thing.. for several reasons. vertical landings don't require miles of runway and limit noise pollution. they don't require wheels or wings. just turn on the engines and touch down. of course, as henry pointed out, vetical landings aren't quite that simple. or am i missing something.. don't know to much about dc-x and such.. (overly obvious?). well, to be blunt, yes. but at least you're learning. why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? parachute in then... the soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets just before they hit the ground. parachutes are, however, not especially practical if you want to reuse something without much effort. the landings are also not very comfortable. however, in the words of georgy grechko, "i prefer to have bruises, not to sink." josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable de la realiser" -jules verne 
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<instance id="sci.space60182">
<answer instance="sci.space60182" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 can somebody elaborate on "area ruling". i gather it's something to do with aerodynamics of trans-sonic planes, and can be summarised as "coke bottle good, coke can bad". anyone provide more details, derivation etc? gregory bond <gnb@bby.com.au> burdett buckeridge & young ltd melbourne australia knox's 386 is slick. fox in sox, on knox's box knox's box is very quick. plays lots of lsl. he's sick! (apologies to john "iron bar" mackin.) 
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<instance id="sci.space60183">
<answer instance="sci.space60183" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 according the iau circular #5744, comet shoemaker-levy 1993e, may be temporarily in orbit around jupiter. the comet had apparently made a close flyby of jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the ooooh -- who would have thought that galileo would get the chance to check out a comet too?!? 
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<instance id="sci.space60184">
<answer instance="sci.space60184" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> russia's operative |> in march 1993, russian president boris yeltsin |> proposed to the united states and the united nations a global |> defense shield (with "star wars"-type weapons) against funny. a bit disturbing. forging a posting seems somewhat unethical, even if the subject is as notorious as mcelwaine. followups should definitely not go to sci.space. david rickel drickel@sjc.mentorg.com 
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<instance id="sci.space60190">
<answer instance="sci.space60190" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [titan iii is the cheapest us launcher on a $/lb basis] in that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial market. is there a single titan iii on order? they have a few problems. the biggest technical problem is the need to find two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch. they also don't show much interest in commercial launches. there is more money to be made churning out titan iv's for the government. after all, it isn't every day you find a sucker, er, customer who thinks paying three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea! | allen w. sherzer | "a great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------71 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60191">
<answer instance="sci.space60191" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why can't the government just be a tennant? i think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately current spending rules don't permit it to be workable. actually, that is no longer true. in the last few years congress has ammended laws to provide whatever is needed. note that both spacehab and comet are funded this way. the problems aren't legal nor technical. the problem is nasa's culture. | allen w. sherzer | "a great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------71 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60192">
<answer instance="sci.space60192" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : has anyone ever heard of a food product called "space food sticks?" i remember those awful things. they were dry and crumbly, and i recall asking my third-grade teacher, miss g'francisco, how they kept the crumbs from floating around in zero-g. she had no clue. i have not seen anything like them in today's space program. some apollo technology is best forgotten. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july 1969, a.d. we came in peace for all mankind." 
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<instance id="sci.space60193">
<answer instance="sci.space60193" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 si neatly separates the concepts of "mass", "force" and "weight" which have gotten horribly tangled up in the us system. this is not a problem with english units. a pound is defined to be a unit of force, period. there is a perfectly good unit called the slug, which is the mass of an object weighing 32.2 lbs at sea level. (g = 32.2 ft/sec^2, of course.) american military english units, perhaps. us real english types were once taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force (being that force that causes 1 pound to accelerate at 1 ft.s-2). we had a rare olde tyme doing our exams in those units and metric as well. american, perhaps, but nothing military about it. i learned (mostly) slugs when we talked english units in high school physics and while the teacher was an ex-navy fighter jock the book certainly wasn't produced by the military. [poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out funny; sort of the same reason proponents of si give for using that.] "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60194">
<answer instance="sci.space60194" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program] i reply; btw, fred, you've really crossed the border, since you admit that the ideas you support can only be carried out with coercive power. now that's really f***in' intolerant, so get off yer high horse about tolerance. fred replies; no, tommy, i "admit" that there are such things as 'market failures' which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to i guess your understanding of this 'market failure' should be classified under phil's 'economics on the level of 19th century medicine', since you apparently completely ignored that this 'market failure' can as easily, or even much more easily, be attributed to "government intervention failure". so, in addition to a strong moral argument against what you propose, there is also a strong utilitarian argument, namely that gov's destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder to make. i note that you make no such case as you claim can be 'even more easily made'. yes, the argument can (and has) been made that current government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were in the first place, but there is no such term as 'government failure', since the government can change policies whenever it pleases. the market doesn't do that and is governed by (relatively) well-understood forces. this libertopican bilge about 'moral arguments' about taxation, etc., is, at bottom, so much simplistic economic thinking. it can only be 'justified' by cliche derision of anyone who knows more about economics than the libertopian -- which is what invariably happens. tripe a la tommy, the new libertopian dish. get a clue, little boy, and go salve your wounded pride in my not considering you infallible in some other fashion. i'm not interested in your ego games. puh-leese, fred. this, besides being simply an attempt to be insulting, really belongs on private mail. if 'ego-games' are so unimportatnt to you, why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me? wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance? "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60197">
<answer instance="sci.space60197" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 well this pretty much says it. i have gotten alot of replys to this and it looks like oil is only on earth. so if those greedy little oil companys who obviously don't give **** about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us high a dry. greedy little oil companies? don't blame them; oil companies just supply the demand created by you, me, and just about everyone else on the planet. if we run out, its all our faults. he also ignores a few other things. while organics would become significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear (and thus some things would no longer be economically feasible), oil is hardly an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables. as supply decreases, prices rise and alternatives become more competetive. he also needs to consider that there has been an estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared about petroleum; whatever the current usage rate is, we always seem to have about a 30 year reserve that we know about. [i'm not sure that last figure is still true -- we tend not to look as hard when prices are comparatively cheap -- but it was certainly true during hte 'oil crisis' days of the 70's.] "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60198">
<answer instance="sci.space60198" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone know ifthe sts-56 email press kit was ever released? -tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: astronomy ireland, p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. 6 issues (one year sub.): uk 10.00 pounds, us$20 surface (add us$8 airmail). access/visa/mastercard accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). (world's largest astro. soc. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%) tel: 0891-88-1950 (uk/n.ireland) 1550-111-442 (eire). cost up to 48p per min 
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<instance id="sci.space60200">
<answer instance="sci.space60200" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i need as much information about cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993- 018b) as possible. both its purpose, launch date, location, in short, everything! can you help? -tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: astronomy ireland, p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. 6 issues (one year sub.): uk 10.00 pounds, us$20 surface (add us$8 airmail). access/visa/mastercard accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). (world's largest astro. soc. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%) tel: 0891-88-1950 (uk/n.ireland) 1550-111-442 (eire). cost up to 48p per min 
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<instance id="sci.space60203">
<answer instance="sci.space60203" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in first and second grade (69-70, 70-71). they came in chocolate, strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed like space foil at the time). wasn't there a "plain" flavor too? they looked more like some kind of extruded industrial product than food -- perfectly smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends. kinda scary. the taste is hard to describe, although i remember it fondly. it was most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "power bar." sort of a toffee injected with vitamins. the chocolate power bar is a rough approximation of the taste. strawberry sucked. an other post described it as like a "microwaved tootsie roll" -- which captures the texture pretty well. as for taste, they were like candy, only not very sweet -- does that make sense? i recall liking them for their texture, not taste. i guess i have well developed texture buds. man, these were my "60's." it was obligatory to eat a few while watching "captain scarlet". does anybody else remember _that_, as long as we're off the topic of space? rob unverzagt | shag@aerospace.aero.org | tuesday is soylent green day. unverzagt@courier2.aero.org | 
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<instance id="sci.space60207">
<answer instance="sci.space60207" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 a friend of mine and i were wondering where the expression "pushing the envelope" comes from. anyone out there know? every aircraft has flight constraints for speed/aoa/power. when graphed, these define the 'flight envelope' of that aircraft, presumably so named because the graphed line encloses (envelopes) the area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft doesn't fall out of the sky. hence, 'pushing the envelope' becomes 'operating at (or beyond) the edge of the flight (or operational) envelope'. note that the envelope isn't precisely known until someone actually flies the airplane in those regions -- up to that point, all there are are the theoretical predictions. hence, one of the things test pilots do for a living is 'push the envelope' to find out how close the correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is -- in essence, 'pushing back' the edges of the theoretical envelope to where the airplane actually starts to fail to fly. note, too, that this is done is a quite calculated and careful way; flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what is going to be 'pushed' and how far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans, such as the 'early' first flight of the f-16 during its high-speed taxi tests). i'm sure mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about this process (and then some). "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60210">
<answer instance="sci.space60210" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 suppose the soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working and had made it first. they could have beaten us if either: * their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back, and/or * a saturn v went boom. the apollo fire was harsh, a saturn v explosion would have been hurtful but the soviets winning would have been crushing. that could have been *the* technological turning point for the us turning us from today's "we can do anything, we're *the* super power" to a much more reserved attitude like the soviet program today. kennedy was gone by 68\69, the war was still on is the east, i think the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon by 70 would have been dead with nasa trying to figure were they went wrong. if they had beaten us, i speculate that the us would have gone head and done some landings, but we also would have been more determined to set up a base (both in earth orbit and on the moon). whether or not we would be on mars by now would depend upon whether the soviets tried to go. setting up a lunar base would have stretched the budgets of both nations and i think that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value of going to mars (at least in the short run). thus we would have concentrated on the moon. i speulate that: +the saturn program would have been pushed into the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil. nixon still wins. +the shuttle was never proposed and skylab never built. +by 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis. +a string of small launches mark the mid seventies. +by 76 the goal of a us man on the moon is dead and the us space program drifts till the present day. /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "i believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving | | the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the | | moon and returning him safely to the earth." | | <john f. kennedy; may 25, 1961> | 
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<instance id="sci.space60213">
<answer instance="sci.space60213" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i need as much information about cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993- 018b) as possible. both its purpose, launch date, location, in short, everything! can you help? -tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: ocean reconnaissance launch surprises west space news, april 5-11, 1993, p.2 [excerpts] russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months march 30, confounding western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead. the itar-tass news agency announced the launch of cosmos 2238 from plesetsk cosmodrome, but provided little description of the payload's mission. however, based on the satellite's trajectory, western observers identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement. geoff perry of the kettering group in england... [said] western observers had concluded that no more would be launched. but days after the last [such] satellite re-entered the earth's atmosphere, cosmos 2238 was "cosmos-2238" satellite launched for defense ministry moscow itar-tass world service in russian 1238 gmt 30 march 1993 translated in fbis-sov-93-060, p.27 by itar-tass correspondent veronika romanenkova moscow, 30 march -- the cosmos-2238 satellite was launched at 1600 moscow time today from the baykonur by a "tsiklon-m" carrier rocket. an itar-tass correspondent was told at the press center of russia's space-military forces that the satellite was launched in the interests of the russian defense parameters given moscow itar-tass world service in russian 0930 gmt 31 march 1993 translated in fbis-sov-93-060, p.27 moscow, 31 march -- another artificial earth satellite, cosmos-2238, was launched on 30 march from the baykonur cosmodrome. the satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research. the satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters: initial period of revolution--92.8 minutes; apogee--443 km; perigee--413 km; orbital inclination--65 degrees. besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for transmitting to earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific apparatus. the apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally. 
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<instance id="sci.space60214">
<answer instance="sci.space60214" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 (martin mariatta, boeing, mcdonell douglas, general dynamics, lockheed, rockwell) getting together, and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles, and spending say $3million to do that. recognizing that most of the military requirements for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere (say, has the shuttle ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability? you get the idea, figure out how many, how often, where to, etc...) then taking this data, and forming a sematech type company (bad example, i know... but at least its an example...) to develop between 3 and 5 craft designs. then to take all of those designs, and figure out exactly what the technologies are, and demonstrate those technologies, in order to eliminate designs that can't be built today. and lets say that this portion again funded by the gov cost about $20 million. and from here all of these companies went their separate ways, with the intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall street, and saying "i want to build this vehicle, and here are the numbers that show %20 roi, fund me...) now many of you think that this is a joke, but i have it on good authority that just this project is shaping up in the background. it seems that the aerospace companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled (nasp, nls, als, dcy?, etc...) they need to work more in the japaneese, and european spirit of initial cooperation. they have also learned that design requirements that are phony (i.e. some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be) ends up getting chopped up in congress, because it is not a real requirement. any feedback? 
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<instance id="sci.space60216">
<answer instance="sci.space60216" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 on tue, 6 apr 1993 02:19:59 gmt, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (phil g. fraering) said: on 4 apr 1993 20:31:10 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (pat) said: pat> in article <1993apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu> pat> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >question is can someone give me 10 examples of direct nasa/space related >research that helped humanity in general? it will be interesting to see.. pat> tang :-) mylar i think. i think they also pushed hi tech pat> composites for airframes. look at fly by wire. swept wings--if you fly in airliners you've reaped the benefits. phil> didn't one of the early jet fighters have these? i also think phil> the germans did some work on these in wwii. the naca came up with them before world war ii. nasa is directly descended from the naca, with space added in. you'll notice that i didn't mention sweep wings even though the x-5, tested at what's now dryden, had them. we did steal that one dirctly from the germans. the difference is that swept wings don't change their angle of sweep, sweep wings do. perhaps the similarity of names has caused some confusion? 747s have swept wings, f-111s have sweep wings. winglets. area ruling. digital fly by wire. ride smoothing. phil> a lot of this was also done by the military... after nasa aerodynamicists proposed them and nasa test teams demonstrated them. richard whitcomb and r.t. jones, at langley research center, were giants in the field. dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area ruling (in the 70s and 50s, respectively). it's true that we used military aircraft as the testbeds (kc-135 and yf-102) but that had more to do with availability and need than with military involvement. the yf-102 was completely ours and the kc-135 was bailed to us. the air force, of course, was interested in our results and supportive of our efforts. dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. no mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were. general dynamics decided to make the f-16 flyby-wire when they saw how successful we were. (mind you, the avro arrow and the x-15 were both fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.) phil> egad! i'm disagreeing with mary shafer! the nasa habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. on the other hand, all those second-hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance to fold the wings--something most pilots at edwards air force base can't do. mary shafer dod #0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility, edwards, ca shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov of course i don't speak for nasa "a mig at your six is better than no mig at all." unknown us fighter pilot 
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<instance id="sci.space60217">
<answer instance="sci.space60217" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the taste is hard to describe, although i remember it fondly. it was most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "power bar." sort of a toffee injected with vitamins. the chocolate power bar is a rough approximation of the taste. strawberry sucked. peanut butter was definitely my favorite. i don't think i ever took a second bite of the strawberry. i recently joined nutri-system and their "chewy fudge bar" is very reminicent of the chocolate space food. this is the only thing i can find that even comes close the taste. it takes you back... your taste-buds are happy and your intestines are in knots... joy! mark ---------------------------- (adam@paix.sw.stratus.com) | my opinions are not those of stratus. | hell! i don`t even agree with myself! "logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad." 
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<instance id="sci.space60219">
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 todays new york times just wrote about a pact being negotiated between us and the russians to develope high temperature gas cooled fission reactors using re-cycled weapons grade plutonium from warhead stockpiles. the fuel will be pelletized in ceramic for safety, and then after depletion will be sufficiently contaminated with by-products to make extraction of the remaining plutonium hazardous enough to deter re-use. apparently the project will be led by general atomics of san diego with funding from the us government. the pilot plant will be built and operated by the russians. 
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<instance id="sci.space60221">
<answer instance="sci.space60221" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |>>paul, quite frankly i'll believe that this is really going to work on |>>the typical trash one needs to process when i see them put a couple |>>tons in one end and get (relatively) clean material out the other end, |>>plus be able to run it off its own residual power. sounds almost like |>>perpetual motion, doesn't it? |i will believe that this process comes even close to approaching |technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the |trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of |separating things first and having a different 'run' for each |actinide) when i see them dump a few tons in one end and pull |(relatively) clean material out the other. once the costs, |technological risks, etc., are taken into account i still class this |one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun. sure, it's possible |and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable |approach? how is it ever going to be an off- the shelf technology if someone doesn't do it? maybe we should do this as part of the ssf design goals. ;-) gee fred. after your bitter defense of 20 khz power as a basic technology for ssf, id think you would support a minor research program like this. and does anyone who knows more particle physics then me, know if the ipns could prove this technology? |>the real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being |>built is that there isn't any reason to do so. natural uranium is |>still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks |>technically reasonable. it may also help there is political gridlock on the entire nuclear technical agenda. there were big political opponenents to fast breeder technologies. wipp is being fought to death in courts. even if you could make a nuclear incinerator, do you really think even deaf smith county nevada would accept it? nimby'ism rules nuclear power concerns. only the medical community has been able to overrule nuclear technology opposition. 
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<instance id="sci.space60223">
<answer instance="sci.space60223" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 dillon comments that space food sticks may have bad digestive properties. i don't think so. i think most nasa food products were designed to be low fiber 'zero-residue' products so as to minimize the difficulties of waste disposal. i'd doubt they'd deploy anything that caused whole sale gi distress. there aren't enough plastic baggies in the world for a bad case of gi disease. 
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<instance id="sci.space60224">
<answer instance="sci.space60224" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am sure mary or henry can describe this more aptly then me. but here is how i understand it. at speed, near supersonic. the wind behaves like a fluid pipe. it becomes incompressible. so wind has to bend away from the wing edges. as the wing thickens, the more the pipes bend. if they have no place to go, they begin to stall, and force compression, stealing power from the vehicle (high drag). if you squeeze the fuselage, so that these pipes have aplace to bend into, then drag is reduced. essentially, teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf remain constant for all areas of the fuselage. that is where the wings are subtract, teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage. 
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<instance id="sci.space60225">
<answer instance="sci.space60225" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 since the dc-x is to take off horizontal, why not land that way?? why do the martian landing thing.. or am i missing something.. don't know to much about dc-x and such.. (overly obvious?). you missed something. i think it takes off vertically and is intended to land the same way. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60226">
<answer instance="sci.space60226" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |i think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately |current spending rules don't permit it to be workable. for this to |work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain |minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk |enough to make this attractive to a private firm. since they |generally can't allocate money except one year at a time, the |government can't provide such a tenant guarantee. try reading a bit. the government does lots of multi year contracts with penalty for cancellation clauses. they just like to be damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year contract. the reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much as they would like is the reagan administration signed enough multi year contracts, that it's now cheaper to just finish them out. i don't have to "try reading a bit", pat. i *work* as a government contractor and know what the rules are like. yes, they sign some (damned few -- which is why everyone is always having to go to washington to see about next week's funding) multi-year contracts; they also aren't willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties when they *do* decide to cut the multi-year contract and not pay on it (which can happen arbitrarily at any time, no matter what previous plans were) to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a private space station with the government as the expected prime i'd like a source for that statement about "the reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much as they would like"; i just don't buy it. the other thing i find a bit 'funny' about your posting, pat, is that several other people answered the question pretty much the same way i did; mine is the one you comment (and incorrectly, i think) on. i think that says a lot. you and tommy should move in together. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space60228">
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 ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria? i figure that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it. any comments? sure. why keep using oil? a hydrogen/electric economy would likely be cleaner and more efficient in the long run. the laws of supply and demand should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of matthew deluca georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60229">
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 nasa headquarters distributed the following press release today (4/6). i've typed it in verbatim, for you folks to chew over. many of the topics recently discussed on sci.space are covered in this. gibbons outlines space station redesign guidance dr. john h. gibbons, director, office of science and technology policy, outlined to the members-designate of the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station on april 3, three budget options as guidance to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space station. a low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7 billion and a high option of $9 billion will be considered by the committee. each option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development, operations, utilization, shuttle integration, facilities, research operations support, transition cost and also must include adequate program reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds. over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within the nasa budget for the president's new technology investment. as a result, station options above $7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in the rest of the nasa budget. for example, a space station option of $9 billion would require $2 billion in offsets from the nasa budget over the next 5 years. gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of the advisory committee. generally, the members-designate focused upon administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted. they also received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the station redesign team is following to develop options for the advisory committee to gibbons also announced that the united states and its international partners -- the europeans, japanese, and canadians -- have decided, after consultation, to give "full consideration" to use of russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process. to that end, the russians will be asked to participate in the redesign effort on an as-needed consulting basis, so that the redesign team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of mir and the possible use of mir and other russian capabilities and systems. the u.s. and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of the russian participants in assessing russian systems and technology. the overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilities. careful integration of russian assets could be a key factor in achieving that goal. gibbons reiterated that, "president clinton is committed to the redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the science, the technology and the jobs that the space station program represents. however, he also is committed to a space station that is well managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation." nasa administrator daniel s. goldin said the russian participation will be accomplished through the east- west space science center at the university of maryland under the leadership of roald sagdeev. 
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 on 6 apr 1993 14:06:57 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (pat) said: pat> in article <shafer.93apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> successful we were. (mind you, the avro arrow and the x-15 were both fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.) pat> gee, i thought the x-15 was cable controlled. didn't one of them pat> have a total electrical failure in flight? was there machanical pat> backup systems? all reaction-controlled aircraft are fly-by-wire, at least the rcs part is. on the x-15 the aerodynamic control surfaces (elevator, rudder, etc) were conventionally controlled (pushrods and cables) but the rcs jets were fly-by-wire. |the nasa habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using |them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. on the other |hand, all those second-hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance |to fold the wings--something most pilots at edwards air force base |can't do. pat> what do you mean? overstress the wings, and they fail at teh pat> joints? navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings, in order to save space on the hangar deck. the f-14 wings sweep, all the rest fold the wingtips up at a joint. air force planes don't have folding wings, since the air force has lots of room. mary shafer dod #0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility, edwards, ca shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov of course i don't speak for nasa "a mig at your six is better than no mig at all." unknown us fighter pilot 
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 now isn't that always the kicker. it does seem stupid to drop a mission like magellan, because there isn't 70 million a year to keep up the mission. you'd think that ongoing science could justify the money. jpl gets accused of spending more then neccessary, probably some validity in that, but nasa does put money into some things that really are porcine. oh well. i attended a colloquium at goddard last fall where the head of the operations section of nasa was talking about what future missions were going to be funded. i don't remember his name or title off hand and i have discarded the colloquia announcement. in any case, he was asked about that very matter: "why can't we spend a few million more to keep instruments that we already have in place going?" his responce was that there are only so many $ available to him and the lead time on an instrument like a cobe, magellan, hubble, etc is 5-10 years minumum. if he spent all that could be spent on using current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have very little to nothing for future projects. if he did that, sure in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular, however starting a few years after he had retired he would become one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments. just as he had benefited from his predicessor's funding choices, he owed it to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new missions, even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them. covert c beach dragon@access.digex.com 
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 ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria? i figure that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it. any comments? they exist. even photosynthetic varieties. not economical at this time, though. paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu 
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 it isn't feasible for japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power. of course, given they export 50 % of the gnp, what do they do. well they don't export anywhere near 50% of their gnp. mexico's perhaps but not their own. they actually export around the 9-10% mark. similar to most developed countries actually. australia exports a larger share of gnp as does the united states (14% i think off hand. always likely to be out by a factor of 12 or more though) this would be immediately obvious if you thought about it. anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will also hose their export routes. it is their import routes that count. they can do without exports but they couldn't live without imports for any longer than six months if that. given they import everything, oil is just one more critical commodity. too true! but one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry. joseph askew joseph askew, gauche and proud in the autumn stillness, see the pleiades, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. disclaimer? sue, see if i care north of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, actually, i rather like brenda beyond the pale, the river murmurs on. 
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 in the april edition of "one small step for a space activist", allen sherzer & tim kyger write: "another problem is what are called 'wraps' (or sometimes the 'center tax'). when work for a large program like freedom or shuttle is performed at a nasa center, the center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts to a slush fund. this money is used to fund work the center manager wants to fund. this sum is estimated to be over a third of the funds allocated. think about that: of the $30 billion cost of freedom, fully $10 billion won't be spent on anything having anything to do with space stations! now, maybe that $10 billion was wisely spent (and maybe it wasn't), but the work done with it should stand on its own merits, not distorting the cost of other projects. congress has no idea of the existense of these wraps; congress has never heard the term 'center tax'. they look at the station they are getting and the price they are paying and note that it doesn't add up. they wonder this blissfully unaware that a third of the money is going for something else." my dear friends, your mixing fact and fiction here. a couple of weeks ago, when i first read this in your posting, i talked with one of the cost experts here in space station at headquarters [if you wondering why i didn't post a response immediately, i do have a real job i'm supposed to be doing here at headquarters, & digging up old 20 khz data & looking into sherzer/kyger claims rates pretty low on the totem pole of priority. also, i spent last weekend in kansas city, at the national science teachers association conference, extolling the virtues of ssf to 15,000 science teachers.] first off, yes, the concept of 'center tax', or 'wrap' does exist. if i recall the numbers correctly, the total 'tax' for the ssf program for this fiscal year is around $40 million. this was computed by adding up the wp-1, wp-2, and wp-4 center 'taxes'. with the ssf budget for this fiscal year at $2.2 billion, my calculater says the tax percentage is 04/2.2 = 1.8% over the life of the ssf program, using your figure of $30 billion for the cost of ssf, a tax at a 1.8% rate comes to $540 million. this is alot less than $10 billion, but i will concede it's still an appreciable amount of pocket i should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 1/3 could be close to the actual rate. the tax is only charged on funds that are spent at the center (kind of like mcdonalds at some states, where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat the food at the restaurant, but you don't if you get it take-out). for example, at wp-4, the vast bulk of the funds we receive go to the rocketdyne contract, and are *not* subject to the center tax (i don't have the numbers in front of me, but i'd guess at least 95% of the wp-4 funds go to rocketdyne). so, you could be right about a tax rate of 1/3, but it's only applied to funds spent at the center, and not to the prime contracts. this leads to the obvious question "what is the government doing with ssf funds that don't go to the prime contractors? (i.e. ok, wp-4 gets a slice of the $30 billion pie. a big portion of this slice goes to rocketdyne. what happens to the balance of the funds, which aren't eaten up by the center tax?)" at wp-4, we call these funds we spend in-house supporting development funds (as they are supporting the development work done by rocketdyne). we have used these funds to setup our own testbed, to checkout the electrical power system architecture. our testbed has a real life solar array field (left over from solar cell research research a few years back), with lead-acid car batteries (to simulate the nickel-hydrogen batteries on ssf), dc switchgear, dc-dc converter units, and simulated loads. data from the testbed was used in a recent change evaluation involving concerns about the stability of the power system. we have also used the supporting development money to purchase nickel hydrogen batteries, which are on life testing at both lewis and the crane naval facility in indiana. as a side point, 6 of the battery cells on test recently hit the four year life test milestone. 38 cells have completed 18,552 to 23,405 cycles (the on-orbit batteries go through 5,840 cycles per year). as a final example, my 'home' division at lewis used the supporting development funds to purchase personal computers and work stations, for performing system analyses (like modeling of the performance of the electrical power system, availability calculations using a monte-carlo simulation, setting up a database with information on weight of the power system elements). finally, the money raised by the 'tax' does not all go into a 'slush fund.' at lewis, the director does control a small discretionary fund. each year, any individual at lewis can submit a proposal to the director to get money from this fund to look at pretty much anything within the lewis charter. most of the tax, however, goes to fund the 'general' services at the center, like the library, the central computer services division, the contractor who removes the snow, etc. thus, it is rather difficult to determine what percentage of the ssf budget doesn't go for ssf activities. to get an accurate figure, you would have to take the annual expenditure for the library (for example), and then divide by the amount of the library funds used to support ssf (which would be hard to compute by itself - how would you figure out what percentage of the bill for aviation week for 1 year is 'billable' to ssf, would you base it on the person-hours ssf employees spend reading av-week versus the rest of the center personnel). you would then have to compare this estimate of the ssf portion of the library expense with the portion of the tax that goes to support the library. who knows, maybe ssf overpays on the tax to run the library, but we underpay for snow removal? talk about a burecratic nightmare! my last point is that i can't believe your claim that congress has never heard of the term 'center tax.' unfortunately, all of the nasa testimony before congress isn't on a computer, so i can't do a simple word search someplace to prove you wrong. but surely, in some gao audit somewhere, these nasa cost methods were documented for congress? 
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 mcdonnell douglas rolls out dc-x huntington beach, calif. -- on a picture-perfect southern california day, mcdonnell douglas rolled out its dc-x rocket ship last saturday. the company hopes this single-stage rocket technology demonstrator will be the first step towards a single-stage-to-orbit (ssto) rocket ship. the white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the white sands missile range in new mexico this week. flight tests will start in mid-june. although there wasn't a cloud in the noonday sky, the forecast for ssto research remains cloudy. the sdi organization -- which paid $60 million for the dc-x -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a follow-on vehicle. to get the necessary hundreds of millions required for a sub-orbital dc-xa, sdio is passing a tin cup among its sister government sdio originally funded ssto research as a way to cut the costs for orbital deployments of space-based sensors and weapns. however, recent changes in sdi's political marching orders and budget cuts have made ssto less of a priority. today, the agency is more interested in using dc-x as a step towards a low-cost, reusable sounding rocket. sdio has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies, said col. simon "pete" worden, sdio's deputy for technology. but worden declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the program. "i didn't make colonel by telling my contractors how much money i have available to spend," he quipped at a press conference at mcdonnell douglas astronautics headquarters. while sdio has lowered its sights on the program's orbital objective, agency officials hail the dc-x as an example of the "better, faster, cheaper" approach to hardware development. the agency believes this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that "leapfrog" ahead of evolutionary technology developments. worden said the dc-x illustrates how a "build a little, test a little" approach can produce results on time and within budget. he said the program -- which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months -- showed how today's engineers could move beyond the "miracles of our parents' time." "the key is management," worden said. "sdio had a very light hand on this project. we had only one overworked major, jess sponable." although the next phase may involve more agencies, worden said lean management and a sense of government-industry partnership will be crucial. "it's essential we do not end up with a large management structure where the price goes up exponentially." sdio's approach also won praise from two california members of the house science, space and technology committee. "this is the direction we're going to have to go," said rep. george brown, the committee's democratic chairman. "programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years aren't sustainable....nasa hasn't learned it yet. sdio has." rep. dana rohrbacher, brown's republican colleague, went further. joking that "a shrimp is a fish designed by a nasa design team," rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it were left to the civil space agency. rohrbacher, whose orange county district includes mcdonnell douglas, also criticized nasa-air force work on conventional, multi-staged rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology. "let's not build fancy ammunition with capsules on top. let's build a spaceship!" although rohrbacher praised sdio's sponsorship, he said the private sector needs to take the lead in developing ssto technology. mcdonnell douglas, which faces very uncertain prospects with its c-17 transport and space station freedom programs, were more cautious about a large private secotro commitment. "on very large ventures, companies put in seed money," said charles ordahl, mcdonnell douglas' senior vice president for space systems. "you need strong government investments." while the government and industry continue to differ on funding for the dc-xa, they agree on continuing an incremental approach to development. citing corporate history, they liken the process to douglas aircraft's dc aircraft. just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for the dc-3 transport, a gradual evolution in single-stage rocketry could eventually lead to an orbital delta clipper (dc-1). flight tests this summer at white sands will "expand the envelope" of performance, with successive tests increasing speed and altitude. the first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering, verticle take-off and landing. the second series will send the unmanned dc-x up to 5,000 feet. the third and final series will take the craft up to 20,000 maneuvers will become more complex on third phase. the final tests will include a "pitch-over" manever that rotates the vehicle back into a bottom-down configuration for a soft, four-legged landing. the flight test series will be supervised by charles "pete" conrad, who performed similar maneuvers on the apollo 12 moon landing. now a mcdonnell douglas vice president, conrad paised the vehicles aircraft-like approach to operations. features include automated check-out and access panels for easy maintainance. if the program moves to the next stage, engine technology will become a key consideration. this engine would have more thrust than the pratt & whitney rl10a-5 engines used on the dc-x. each motor uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14,760 pounds of based on the engine used in centaur upper stages, the a-5 model has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and three-to-on throttling capability. it also is designed for repeat firings and rapid worden said future single-stage rockets could employ tri-propellant engine technology developed in the former soviet union. the resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes. the mechanism for the teaming may already be in place. pratt has a technology agreement with npo energomash, the design bureau responsible for the tri-propellant and energia cryogenic engines. 
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 [on the issue of 'burning' nuclear wastes using particle beams...] how is it ever going to be an off- the shelf technology if someone doesn't do it? maybe we should do this as part of the ssf design goals. ;-) gee fred. after your bitter defense of 20 khz power as a basic technology for ssf, id think you would support a minor research program like i sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than everyone else, pat. just a *few* corrections: 1) i never 'defended' 20khz power, other than as something reasonable to go look at. 2) i have also never opposed a *research project* into feasibility of the spalling reactor approach to 'cleaning' nuclear waste -- i simply doubt it could be made to work in the real world (tm), which ought to become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility (sort of like what happened to 20 khz power -- it proved to have a down-side that was too expensive to overcome). i figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault density for even you, pat. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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 this might a real wierd idea or maybe not.. why musta space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not earth, why be limited by earth based ideas?? choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above: 1. politics 2. traditions 3. congress 4. beauracrats 
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 in sci.space you write: try the environet database at gsfc. ftp to envnet.gsfc.nasa.gov or 128.183.104.16, or call (310)286-5690. they have data on sts, ariane, titan, atlas, delta and scout launch environments. howdy. thanks for the info. i tried "anonymous" ftp there, but it didn't work. i also tried telnetting to the same address, but it asked for a login and password, although there was a note saying that the new username for environet was "envnet". anyways, do you have any idea what else i should try? the home office number for environet is (301) 286-5690 (note area code change). a friend of mine used to use it to get ldef data, but he had to apply for a login name and password. i have a call in for more info, which i hope to get in the morning. david w. @ gsfc 
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 another legend with the name vulcan was the planet, much like earth, in the same orbit there was a science fiction movie sometime ago (i do not remember its name) about a planet in the same orbit of earth but hidden behind the sun so it could never be visible from earth. turns out that that planet was the exact mirror image of earth and all its inhabitants looked like the earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they would shake hands with the left hand and so on... c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov claudio oliveira egalon 
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 here are some recent observations taken by the hubble space telescope: o the faint object spectrograph (fos) was used to make ultraviolet observations of both the planet pluto, and its moon charon. the peakups were successful. the observations were executed as scheduled, and no problems were reported. o observations were made using the high speed photometer of the planet uranus during an occultation by a faint star in capricornus. these observations will help in our understanding of the planet's atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes. this event occurred close to the last quarter moon, and special arrangements had to be made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations. the observations are currently being reviewed, and all the observations looked okay. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | being cynical never helps /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | to correct the situation |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation | instead. 
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 i just uploaded "dcxart2.gif" to bongo.cc.utexas.edu...after chris johnson moves it, it'll probably be in pub/delta-clipper. thanks again andy. the image is in pub/delta-clipper now. the name has been changed to "dcx-artists-concept.gif" in the spirit of verboseness. :-) ----chris chris w. johnson internet: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu uucp: {husc6|uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!chrisj compuserve: >internet:chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu applelink: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu@internet# ...wishing the delta clipper team success in the upcoming dc-x flight tests. 
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 there are actually only two of us. i do henry, fred, tommy and mary. oh yeah, this isn't my real name, i'm a bald headed space baby. damn! so it was you who was drinking beer with robert mcelwane in the parking lot of the k-mart! unlimited insemination of this message rigidly refused software engineering? that's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > sysmgr@cadlab.eng.umd.edu < -- 
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 : while you're at it, comet experts, explain how a comet gets into : jovian orbit to begin with! : there are non-gravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a : comet gets into the inner solar system. [...] don't forget the galilean satellites of jupiter. my poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny masses, sitting very close to jupiter, play any role whatsoever in the problem. or, to put it more technically, the extra "volume" they add to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible. jupiter is 2e27 kg, while the galilean satellites are around 1e23. also, as i said, the few references that i've looked at do not mention outgassing or breakup as important processes. the important thing is a jupiter-sun-comet "reverse slingshot" that leads to a weakly jupiter-bound orbit for the comet (at least a temporary one). bill higgins | late at night she still doth haunt me fermilab | dressed in garments soaked in brine bitnet: higgins@fnal.bitnet | though in life i used to hug her internet: higgins@fnal.fnal.gov | now she's dead, i draw the line! span/hepnet: 43011::higgins | --after the tragedy, "clementine" 
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 hi all, i really thought that by now i would have seen something about this, but i haven't, so here goes: last night on the evening news, the anchorperson said something to the effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case. there was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was found, of what type of wrench it was, but the anchorperson did say something about a nasa official commenting that there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the ssrb. has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be better than mine heard anything about this? it seems rather mitch ---------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu 
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 forwarded from: public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute of technology national aeronautics and space administration pasadena, calif. 91109. (818) 354-5011 contact: mary a. hardin for immediate release april 15, 1993 #1506 scientists at nasa's jet propulsion laboratory report the successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to measure and study chemicals in the earth's ozone layer. the april 3 flight from california's barstow/daggett airport reached an altitude of 37 kilometers (121,000 feet) and took measurements as part of a program established to correlate data with the upper atmosphere research satellite (uars). the data from the balloon flight will also be compared to readings from the atmospheric trace molecular spectroscopy (atmos) experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle "we launch these balloons several times a year as part of an ongoing ozone research program. in fact, jpl is actively involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three important ways," said dr. jim margitan, principal investigator on the balloon research campaign. "there are two jpl instruments on the uars satellite," he continued. "the atmos experiment is conducted by jpl scientists, and the jpl balloon research provides collaborative ground truth for those activities, as well as data that is useful in its own right." the measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere, specifically the mid-latitude stratosphere during winter and spring. understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps scientists construct more accurate computer models which are instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions. the scientific balloon payload consisted of three jpl instruments: an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere; a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere; and a fourier transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the atmosphere absorbs sunlight. launch occurred at about noontime, and following a three- hour ascent, the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130 kilometers per hour (70 knots). data was radioed to ground stations and recorded onboard. the flight ended at 10 p.m. pacific time in eastern new mexico when the payload was commanded to separate from the balloon. "we needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared measurements," margitan explained, "and we also needed to fly in darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear." it will be several weeks before scientists will have the completed results of their experiments. they will then forward their data to the uars central data facility at the goddard space flight center in greenbelt, maryland for use by the uars the balloon was launched by the national scientific balloon facility, normally based in palestine, tex., operating under a contract from nasa's wallops flight facility. the balloon was launched in california because of the west-to-east wind direction and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest. the balloons are made of 20-micron (0.8 mil, or less than one-thousandth of an inch) thick plastic, and are 790,000 cubic meters (28 million cubic feet) in volume when fully inflated with helium (120 meters (400 feet) in diameter). the balloons weigh between 1,300 and 1,800 kilograms (3,000 and 4,000 pounds). the scientific payload weighs about 1,300 kilograms (3,000) pounds and is 1.8 meters (six feet) square by 4.6 meters (15 feet) high. the jpl balloon research is sponsored by nasa's upper atmosphere research program and the uars correlative measurements ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | being cynical never helps /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | to correct the situation |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation | instead. 
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<answer instance="sci.space60788" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 there was a science fiction movie sometime ago (i do not remember its name) about a planet in the same orbit of earth but hidden behind the sun so it could never be visible from earth. this was known as *journey to the far side of the sun* in the united states and as *doppelganger* in the u.k. it was produced by the great team of gerry and sylvia anderson (whose science was usually a bit better than this). it may have been their first production using live actors-- they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows, such as *supercar*, *stingray*, and *thunderbirds*. later, they went on to do more live-action sf series: *ufo* and *space: 1999*. the astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, vtol airliners, and mighty portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to look at. bill higgins, beam jockey | in a churchyard in the valley fermi national accelerator laboratory | where the myrtle doth entwine bitnet: higgins@fnal.bitnet | there grow roses and other posies internet: higgins@fnal.fnal.gov | fertilized by clementine. span/hepnet: 43011::higgins | 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60793">
<answer instance="sci.space60793" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 for immediate release contact: oasis (310) 364-2290 15 april 1993 los angeles, ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk by l.a. advocate of lunar power system as energy source for the world on april 21, the oasis and ventura county chapters of the national space society will sponsor a talk by lunar power system (lps) co- inventor and vice-president of the lps coalition, dr. robert d. waldron. it will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the rockwell science center in thousand oaks, ca. dr. waldron is currently a technical specialist in space materials processing with the space systems division of rockwell international in downey, california. he is a recognized world authority on lunar materials refinement. he has written or coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial materials processing or utilization. along with dr. david criswell, waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept. momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal experts, and soviet and u.s. scientists and engineers to build the lunar power system, a pollution-free, energy source with a potential to power the globe. for the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half from california, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific concept of a solar power system based on the moon. the lps concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar surface and beaming the power to earth as microwaves transmitted through orbiting antennae. a mature lps offers an enormous source of clean, sustainable power to meet the earth's ever increasing demand using proven, basic technology. oasis (organization for the advancement of space industrialization) is the greater los angeles chapter of the national space society, which is an international non-profit organization that promotes development of the space frontier. the ventura county chapter is based in oxnard, ca. where: rockwell science center auditorium, 1049 camino dos rios, thousand oaks, ca. directions: ventura freeway 101 to thousand oaks, exit onto lynn road heading north (right turn from 101 north, left turn from 101 south), after about 1/2 mile turn left on camino dos rios, after about 1/2 mile make first right into rockwell after camino colindo, parking at top of hill to the left 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60796">
<answer instance="sci.space60796" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest bidder....." attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated. clive trotman 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60797">
<answer instance="sci.space60797" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case. i heard a similar statement in our local news (utah) tonight. they referred to the tool as "...the pliers that took a ride into space...". they also said that a thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb. no more info as to the location in the srb. i agree, pretty weird. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60799">
<answer instance="sci.space60799" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 quick! everyone who sees this, post a reply that says: "hey, i read sci.space!" then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-) (this will also help answer that nagging question: "just what is the maximum bandwidth of the internet, anyways?") don't you think it would be better to e-mail back to you that we read sci.space so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get bw'd to death. or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into a single post and save on header bandwidth.... not meaning to be taken as a flame it's late and we have to work toward a demo .... little punchy -jftm- 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60801">
<answer instance="sci.space60801" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets? thanks in advance, 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60803">
<answer instance="sci.space60803" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets? well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the tanks big enough. working out how much cold gas is another problem, depending on vehicle configuration, flight duration, thruster isp (which couples into storage pressure, which may be a factor in selecting tank wall thickness etc.) ralph lorenz unit for space sciences university of kent, uk 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60804">
<answer instance="sci.space60804" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back. i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention. it was from a company name "personal missle, inc." or something like that. anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length and engines of sizes "f" to "m". they also said that some rockets will reach 50,000 feet. now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts, isn't this illegal? i can't imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes. not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down. and no, i'm not going to even think of buying one. i'm not that crazy. -paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" dokas #include <std.disclaimer> #define full_name "paul dokas" #define email "pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com" /* just remember, you *will* die someday. */ 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60808">
<answer instance="sci.space60808" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length and engines of sizes "f" to "m". they also said that some rockets will reach 50,000 feet. now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts, isn't this illegal? i can't imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes. the situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years. see the discussion of "high-power rocketry" in the rec.models.rockets frequently-asked-questions list. this is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy; you need proper certification. that can be had, mostly through tripoli (the high- power analog of the nar), although the nar is cautiously moving to extend the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too. you need special faa authorization, but provided you aren't doing it under one of the lax runway approaches or something stupid like that, it's not especially hard to arrange. as with model rocketry, this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled properly. proper handling takes more care, and you need a lot more empty air to fly in, but it's basically just model rocketry scaled up. as with model rocketry, the high-power people use factory-built engines, which eliminates the major safety hazard of do-it-yourself rocketry. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60812">
<answer instance="sci.space60812" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space, but doesn't have an internet feed (or has a cryptic internet feed), i would be willing to feed it to them. i have a nice offline message reader/editor, an automated modem "mailer" program which will pick up mail bundles (quickly and easily), and an install.exe to set them up painlessly. no charge for the sci.space feed, though you have to dial washington, d.c. this is not a bbs -- it's a store & forward system for mail bundles, with minimum connect times. (i'm used to overseas calls.) (this is not an offer for a free feed for any other particular newsgroups.) speeds of up to 14400 (v32bis) are supported. vip's might be offered other free services, such as internet address and other functionality. i get my feed from uunet and run a 4-line hub. i've been hubbing for years -- i have an extremely reliable hub. the software i provide runs under ms-dos (and os/2 and windows as a dos box). other, compatible software packages exist for the macintosh and unix. any responses should be private and go to: mark.prado@permanet.org (by the way, to all, my apologies for the public traffic on my glib question. i really didn't expect public replys. but thanks to bill higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead.) * origin: permannet ftsc <=> internet gateway (1:109/349.2) 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60814">
<answer instance="sci.space60814" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back. i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention. it was from a company name "personal missle, inc." or something like that. anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length and engines of sizes "f" to "m". they also said that some rockets will reach 50,000 feet. now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts, isn't this illegal? i can't imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes. not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down. and no, i'm not going to even think of buying one. i'm not that crazy. -paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" dokas could it be public missile, inc in michigan? from the description of ad here, it sounds like they're talking about "high power rocketry", an outgrowth of model rocketry. this hobby uses non-metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured engines ranging in impulse classification from g to p. the hobby has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular. technically this is not consider amateur rocketry. any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 3.3 pounds or using a total impulse of g or greater, requires an faa waiver to launch. typically, a group of people get an faa waiver for specified period of time (ie week, weekend, etc.) at a designated site and time, and all of the launches are then covered under this "blanket waiver". there is also a "high power safety code" which designates more specific rules such as launch field size, etc. finally, in order to purchase any of the larger (class b) rocket motors you need to certified through either the national association of rocketry or tripoli rocketry association. certification procedures require a demonstarted handling and "safe" flight at a total impulse for more information, watch rec.models.rockets newsgroup. r. michael jungclas uucp: att!ihlpb!rjungcla at&t bell labs - naperville, il. internet: rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60815">
<answer instance="sci.space60815" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 let's see. these aren't, in a strict sense, amateur rockets. that term denotes rockets, the engines of which are constructed by the user. the rockets you describe are called hpr, or high power rockets, to distinguish them from (smaller) model rockets. they use factory-made ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines with graphite nozzles. the engines are classified by impulse. a "d" engine, for example, can have no more than 20 newton-seconds of impulse. an "f" engine can have no more than 40 ns. each letter corresponds to a doubling of the maximum impulse. so far, engines up to size "o" are available pretty much off the shelf. engines of size h and above are shipped as class b explosives, and as such are controlled. engines of size f and below are shipped as class c explosives, and are not as controlled. class f engines, btw, are not hpr engines, but model rocket engines. (class g engines go in and out of legal limbo.) there is an hpr society, the tripoli rocket society, i believe, which holds events at various sites throughout the year, with all legalities (faa waiver included) taken care of. the national association of rocketry is more concerned with engines below h, though it is involved in hpr as well. these societies certify users of hpr rockets, and companies will not sell to uncertified individuals. bottom line: it's legit. i suggest you send for a catalog - but forget the dynamite, will ya? -larry c. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60816">
<answer instance="sci.space60816" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 apologies if this gets posted twice, but i don't think the first one made it. for immediate release contact: oasis (310) 364-2290 15 april 1993 los angeles, ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk by l.a. advocate of lunar power system as energy source for the world on april 21, the oasis and ventura county chapters of the national space society will sponsor a talk by lunar power system (lps) co- inventor and vice-president of the lps coalition, dr. robert d. waldron. it will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the rockwell science center in thousand oaks, ca. dr. waldron is currently a technical specialist in space materials processing with the space systems division of rockwell international in downey, california. he is a recognized world authority on lunar materials refinement. he has written or coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial materials processing or utilization. along with dr. david criswell, waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept. momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal experts, and soviet and u.s. scientists and engineers to build the lunar power system, a pollution-free, energy source with a potential to power the globe. for the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half from california, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific concept of a solar power system based on the moon. the lps concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar surface and beaming the power to earth as microwaves transmitted through orbiting antennae. a mature lps offers an enormous source of clean, sustainable power to meet the earth's ever increasing demand using proven, basic technology. oasis (organization for the advancement of space industrialization) is the greater los angeles chapter of the national space society, which is an international non-profit organization that promotes development of the space frontier. the ventura county chapter is based in oxnard, ca. where: rockwell science center auditorium, 1049 camino dos rios, thousand oaks, ca. directions: ventura freeway 101 to thousand oaks, exit onto lynn road heading north (right turn from 101 north, left turn from 101 south), after about 1/2 mile turn left on camino dos rios, after about 1/2 mile make first right into rockwell after camino colindo, parking at top of hill to the left 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60822">
<answer instance="sci.space60822" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 reported yesterday in the washington post (kathy sawyer, writer): the article plays down the russian role in us space. gibbons (science advisor to clinton) sent goldin a letter indicating nasa should not limit redesign options to those compatible with mir the white house thinks expectations for russian cooperation have been raised too high. the article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly impossible. that's why some think goldin has begun looking at russian hardware. goldin states nasa will present all options to the administration which will then have decision making power. goldin and the white house have totally ruled out using energia to boost the station. chuck divine 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60825">
<answer instance="sci.space60825" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space, but doesn't have an internet feed (or has a cryptic internet feed), i would be willing to feed it to them. kudos to mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts: space digest. it mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication. to subscribe: send the following message in the *body* (not subject) of an email message: subscribe space john q public to one of these addresses: listserv@uga listserv@uga.cc.uga.edu listserv@finhutc listserv@finhuc.hut.fi space-request@isu.isunet.edu you'll receive all the posts in "digest" form once a day. please use a listserv if you can, the "space-request" address is handled to post messages: send your message (with a reasonable subject line) to: space@isu.isunet.edu questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu mark maimone phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698 carnegie mellon computer science email: mwm@cmu.edu 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60826">
<answer instance="sci.space60826" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down. the idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn't interested, but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for actually, hiten wasn't originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all, so it indeed didn't have much fuel on hand. the lunar-orbit mission was an afterthought, after hagoromo (a tiny subsatellite deployed by hiten during a lunar flyby) had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion into lunar orbit couldn't be positively confirmed. it should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages. it takes a long time, and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit. if you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit, you do have to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel, although it is reduced from what you'd need for the brute-force approach. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60828">
<answer instance="sci.space60828" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i thought that under emergency conditions, the sts can put down at any good size airport. if it could take a c-5 or a 747, then it can take an orbiter. you just need a vor/tac i don't know if they need ils. anyone know for sure. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60829">
<answer instance="sci.space60829" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 |>in the old days, their used to be arbitron stats' that analyzed |>the readership and posting volumes by group and user. |>they were available from uunet. that's how you check the |>readership of sci.space, not some stupid unscientific attempt |>to flood the newsgroup. |>i have abetter idea. why don't we all reply directly to the |>origanator of this post, and tell him we read sci.space ;-) |>pat | sigh. | i try to make a little joke, i try to inject some humour here |and what happens? in the immortal words of foghorn leghorn: | "i say, that was a _joke_, son." | i thought that the bit about mcelwaine, not to mention the two |smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that i was |joking. (and will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat) *please* stop sending me email.) | i shot a man just to watch him die; | ross borden | | i'm going to disneyland! | rborden@ra.uvic.ca | now, i had put a wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was intensely sarcastic. i can't help it if everyone got all serious. i never saw your original posting. it dropped on the floor somewhere. i just saw the trickle down, thought it was intensely stupid, not knowing anything about the joke, mentioned arbitron and left it with an equally stupid joke. bill in his ever increasing devotion to thoroughness dug up several arbitron stats. i myself think the arbitron stats are severely methodologically impaired, but are a good measure of proportion. i don't think anyone knows how many people read news anymore. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60830">
<answer instance="sci.space60830" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit is it right??? that is new stuff for me. so it means that you just can not put a sattellite around around the moon for too long because its orbit will be unstable??? if so, what is the reason??? is that because the combined gravitacional atraction of the sun,moon and earth that does not provide a stable orbit around the moon??? c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov claudio oliveira egalon 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60831">
<answer instance="sci.space60831" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 portugese launch complex were *wonderful portuguese launch complex??? gosh.... polish are for american in the same way as portuguese are for brazilians (i am from brazil). there is a joke about the portuguese space agency that wanted to send a portuguese astronaut to the surface of the sun (if there is such a thing). how did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the sun??? simple... their astronauts travelled during the night... c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov claudio oliveira egalon 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60832">
<answer instance="sci.space60832" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one srb during the jan 12 endeavour launch. it lasted only three seconds and the thrust difference between the two srbs was not enough to cause nozzle gimballing. the srb casing shows no abnormalities. is this the one that had the {wrench|pliers} found inside after 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60833">
<answer instance="sci.space60833" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest bidder....." attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated. clive trotman 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60834">
<answer instance="sci.space60834" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i have attached a copy of an announcement i picked up during my trip to moscow last week. i have several friends at the moscow aviation institute who have asked me to post this announcement. (i have done some editing, but the contents is unchanged from the original announcement.) for those of you not familiar with the moscow aviation institute, it is the leading russian school of higher education dedicated to the training of aircraft and spacecraft designers. it specializes in airframe design, powerplant design, control systems, and power systems. virtually all of the major former soviet airframe designers (tupolev, su, iluchine, migoyan, etc.) were schooled at mai. i had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at mai. the aircraft include mig23, su 27, yak 38, the cockpit of an f-111(!), among others. it was a fascinating and eye opening experience, expecially given the fact that the museum was, until a year or so ago, closed to virtually everyone. i also had the opportunity to see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines for future space craft use. if you have any questions about the institute, or the program, i would be glad to try and answer them. the institute, and most of it's faculty have e-mail addresses. however, it takes about a day or so for the receiver to get the message. they are still a bit antiquated - but they are rapidly changing! steve emmett semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ps please send any questions you have for me via e-mail. george mason university has about a 2 week (!) delay in news feed delivery. moscow international aviation school the aviation school "poljot" (meaning flight) is organized by the the moscow aviation institute, the prominent russian center of airspace education and the foreign trade firm poljot, well known in various parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches. the course of studies will last only 50 days, but during this time you will have the unique opportunity: - to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation disciplines, the history and theory of techniques, and design of airplanes; - to visit and get acquainted with the world known russian aviation firms - tu, mig, yak, il and su; - to meet and have discussions with famous aviation scientists, engineers and pilots; - to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation techniques which were closed for many years to the public; - to see the international airspace show which will take place in moscow from 31 august through 3 september 1993; - to visit famous art museums, historical and architectural monuments, theatres and concert halls; - to take part in sport competitions and have a great time with new friends. the director of the school is mr. oleg samelovich, a well known russian scientist, professor, general designer and the chief of the airplanes design department of the moscow aviation institute. mr. samelovich is one of the designers of the the su-24, su-25, and su-27 the lectures are given in english, using a multi-media concept. the students are provided with all the necessary text books and literature. after the full course of studies are completed, the student will receive a special certificate of graduation. the cost of studies, including hotel, meals, excursions, theatres, etc is $3500. to apply for admission, send your application to: 109147 moscow marksistskaja 34 foreign trade firm "poljot" 274 00 13 (phone) 274 00 22 (fax) 411989 polex su (telex) in your application, include your full name, address, date and place of birth. in addition, include complete passport information, as well as a description of your education. upon receipt of this information, "poljot" will immediately forward to you an official invitation for obtaining a russian entrance visa as well as details on payment. should you require additional information, please do not hesitate to contact us. (signed) o. samelovich steve emmett semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu csi/physics, george mason university 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60838">
<answer instance="sci.space60838" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 the most current orbital elements from the norad two-line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when possible). documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. as a service to the satellite user community, the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. the celestial bbs may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space. sts 56 1 22621u 93 23 a 93105.58333333 .00090711 00000-0 25599-3 0 249 2 22621 57.0029 144.8669 0004136 304.2989 134.3206 15.92851555 1179 1993 023b 1 22623u 93 23 b 93103.37312705 .00041032 00000-0 11888-3 0 86 2 22623 57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650 66.5967 15.92653917 803 dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso@afit.af.mil air force institute of technology 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60839">
<answer instance="sci.space60839" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 in reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid rockets as payloads. thiokol provided me with samples and data on a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations. solid motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of aluminum in the mix. for example, the space shuttle srbs are 16 percent aluminum. the technique is to use a 'foamed aluminum' structure. the structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles (an i suspect some bubbling process is used to form it). in other words, if you made a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum, then froze it, this is what you get. it forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in all directions. the remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into the voids, and you get aluminum-reinforced solid propellant. the foamed-aluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant, so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain. the major improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking, which is the principal failure mode for solid propellant. dani eder dani eder/meridian investment company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/ rt.1, box 188-2, athens al 35611/location: 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w +100m alt. 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60843">
<answer instance="sci.space60843" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 background: the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept. it was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by freeman dyson et al many years ago. i don't know how well-known this is, but a high explosive orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in san diego back in 1957 or 1958. i was working at general atomic at the time, but i didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later, ted taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment, and i'd really like to see it. has anyone out there seen it? 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60844">
<answer instance="sci.space60844" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i am a newbie to the net, and i am trying to get some information for a paper i am working on to get back into college. if anyone can send me data on solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be a big help. or, if you have information on more esoteric things like telluric current, surge bafflers power companies use, or other effects sporatic aurora have on the earth's magnetic field, i'd be eternally gratefull. please send anything interesting to me at marty crandall-grela van vleck observatory wesleyan university middletown,ct 06487 or e-mail it to me at mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu thank-you in advance, marty 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60846">
<answer instance="sci.space60846" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone have any russian contacts (space or other) or contacts in the old ussr/su or eastern europe? post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions.. i think the cost of email is high, so we would have to keep the content to specific topics and such.. basically if we want to save russia and such, then we need to make contacts, contacts are a form of info, so lets get informing. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked alive in nome, alaska (once called russian america). 
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<answer instance="sci.space60849" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space? after i graduate, i will have a commitment to serve in the army, and i would like to spend it in a space-related field. i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter-part. any more info on that would be appreciated. i'm looking for things like: do i branch intelligence, or signal, or other? to whom do i voice my interest in space? what qualifications are necessary? etc, etc. btw, my major is computer science engineering. please reply to ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu thanks for any info. = whether they ever find life there or not, i think jupiter should be = = considered an enemy planet. -- jack handy = ---ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu---cirop59@elm.circa.ufl.edu---endeavour@circa.ufl.edu-- 
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<instance id="sci.space60852">
<answer instance="sci.space60852" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 we are not at the end of the space age, but only at the end of its that space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation, or a focus of american cultural attention is certainly debatable; however, technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the cost of future space operations. the dream is alive and well. -jeff bytof member, technical staff institute for remote exploration 
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<instance id="sci.space60855">
<answer instance="sci.space60855" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space? after i graduate, i will have a commitment to serve in the army, and i would like to spend it in a space-related field. i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter-part. any more info on that would be appreciated. i'm looking for things like: do i branch intelligence, or signal, or other? to whom do i voice my interest in space? what qualifications are necessary? etc, etc. btw, my major is computer science engineering. kerry-- i'm guessing a little at this, because it's been a few years since i saw the info, but you will probably want to look at air defense artillery as a specialty, or possibly signals. the kind of thing you're looking for is sdi-type assignments, but it'll be pretty prosaic stuff. things like hard-kill atbm missiles, some of the cobra rigs -- that kind of thing. hope that gives you some ideas on where to look, though. charlie prael - dante@shakala.com shakala bbs (clanzen radio network) sunnyvale, ca +1-408-734-2289 
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<instance id="sci.space60856">
<answer instance="sci.space60856" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 btw, universities do the same thing. they however, have a wrap of 10% to 15% (again, this is over and above any overhead charge). wrong allen. the max overhead charge is all of the charge. there is no seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion. a professor at the university of virginia told me their wrap was about 15%. the subcontracts i have let out and worked on for other universities are about the same. my employer (a non-profit research institute) does the same. this is generally reffered to as the fee. i don't care who told you this it is not generally true. i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it. there is no such thing as wrap at this university. i also asked around here. ther is no wrap at marquette, university of wisconsin madison, utah state, weber state or embry riddle u. i am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance that i have been able to track down it does not. also the president of our university who was provost at university of west virgina said that it did not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead to be a legitimate charge. how do i know? i write proposals and have won contracts and i know to the dime what the charges are. at uah for example the overhead is 36.6%. sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project. i did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead. if you have some numbers allen then show them else quit barking. i did dennis; read the article. to repeat: an internal estimate done by the reston costing department says freedom can be built for about $1.8b a year and operated for $1b per year *if* all the money where spent on freedom. since we spend about half a billion $$ more per year it looks like roughly 25% of the money is wasted. now if you think i'm making this up, you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few weeks ago in space news. no allen you did not. you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa. nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on. kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead. this dennis, is why nasa has so many problems: you can't accept that anything is wrong unless you can blame it on congress. oh, sure, you'll say nasa has problems but do you believe it? remember the wp 02 overrun? you insisted it was all congresses fault when nasa management knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act. do you still blame congress for the overrun? why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems? methinks that you are being selective with the facts again. by your own numbers allen, at a cost of 500 million per flight the service cost of flying shuttle to ssf is 2 billion for four flights, so how did you get your one billion number? i have no idea what your trying to say here dennis. if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. you stated that your "friend" at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see. dennis, university of alabama in huntsville. sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen's math for him for a while. i will have little chance to do so. 
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<instance id="sci.space60857">
<answer instance="sci.space60857" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 there is the army ballistic missile defense organization. they were the precursors to sdio. and still exist under that umbrella. army signal corp's and dca defense comm agency oops disa, they just changed names do space work. that's the point of all those defense comm sats. but don't worry, there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging, somehow you'll end up there ;-) 
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<instance id="sci.space60858">
<answer instance="sci.space60858" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 oddly, enough, the smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight. i would call it the granite years, reflecting the primitive nature of it. it was romantic, swashbuckling daredevils, "those daring young men in their flying machines". but in reality, it sucked. death was a highly likely occurence, and the environment blew. ever see the early navy pressure suits, they were modified diving suits. you were ready to star in "plan 9 from outer space". radios and nav aids were a joke, and engines ran on castor oil. they picked and called aviators "men with iron stomachs", and it wasn't due to vertigo. oddly enough, now we are in the golden age of flight. i can hop the shuttle to ny for $90 bucks, now that's golden. mercury gemini, and apollo were romantic, but let's be honest. peeing in bags, having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime you needed a bowel movement. living for days inside a vw bug. romantic, but not commercial. the dc-x points out a most likely new golden age. an age where fat cigar smoking business men in loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls and used space ship lots. hhhmmmmm, maybe i'll retract that golden age bit. maybe it was better in the old days. of course, then we'll have wally schirra telling his great grand children, "in my day, we walked on the moon. every day. miles. no buses. you kids got it soft". 
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 the first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical landing. there will be no payload. dc-x will never carry any kind exactly when will the hover test be done, and will any of the tv networks carry it. i really want to see that... john lussmyer (dragon@angus.mi.org) mystery spot bbs, royal oak, mi --------------------------------------------?-- 
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<instance id="sci.space60864">
<answer instance="sci.space60864" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i don't care who told you this it is not generally true. i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it. there is no such thing as wrap at this university. dennis, i have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of $$. customers included government (including nasa), for profit and non-profit companies. all expected a wrap (usually called a fee). much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors. the subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and even some of the nasa centers for the commercialization of space. all charged fees as part of the work. down the street is one of the nasa commercialization centers; they charge a fee. now, i'm sure your a competent engineer dennis, but you clearly lack experience in several areas. your posts show that you don't understand the importance of integration in large projects. you also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. this isn't a flame, jsut a statement. your employer does charge a fee. you may not see it but you do. sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project. i did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead. well there you are dennis. as i said, they simply include the fee in their overhead. many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer. no allen you did not. you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa. integration, dennis, isn't overhead. nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on. dennis, reston has been the only nasa agency working to reduce costs. when wp 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station. kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead. when you have a bit more experience dennis, you will realize that integration isn't overhead. it is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort. why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems? methinks that you are being selective with the facts again. the story you refer to said that some nasa people blamed it on congress. suprise suprise. the fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address the problems until the press published the story. are you saying the reston managers where wrong to get nasa to address the overruns? you approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns? if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. you stated that your "friend" at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see. you should know dennis that nasa doesn't include transport costs for resuply. that comes from the shuttle budget. what they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport. sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen's math for him for a while. i will have little chance to do so. i do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of reston to ask that the problems with wp 02 be addressed. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------60 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60866">
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 to all -- i thought the net would find this amusing.. from the march 1993 "aero vision" (the newsletter for the employees of mcdonnell douglas aerospace at huntington beach, california). space clippers launched successfully "on monday, march 15 at noon, quest aerospace education, inc. launched two dc-y space clippers in the mall near the cafeteria. the first rocket was launched by dr. bill gaubatz, director and ssto program manager, and the second by air force captain ed spalding, who with staff sgt. don gisburne represents air force space command, which was requested by sdio to assess the dc-x for potential military operational use. both rocket launches were successful. the first floated to the ground between the cafeteria and building 11, and the second landed on the roof of the quest's space clipper is the first flying model rocket of the mcdonnell douglas dc-x. the 1/122nd semi-scale model of the mcdonnell douglas delta clipper has an estimated maximum altitude of 300 feet. the space clippers can be used in educational settings to teach mathematics and science, as well as social studies and other applications. the space clipper is available either in the $35 space clipper outfit, which includes everything needed for three launches, or as individual rockets for $12 each. both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1-800-858- 7302." by the way -- this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is it an advertisement to buy the product. i make no claims about the product. this is posted for public information only (hey, i found it amusing...), and is merely a repeat of what was included in the mdssc huntington beach newsletter. wales larrison space technology investor --- maximus 2.01wb 
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<instance id="sci.space60868">
<answer instance="sci.space60868" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking the very leading question (in two or three parts) what are your long term expectations of space market, what projects specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels and what competition do you expect in this area. (this last point is always worth hitting upper management with "gently" if you want them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that there really is competion) 
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<instance id="sci.space60872">
<answer instance="sci.space60872" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and i ought not to post when i've a hundred some odd posts to go, but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic. since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would _without_ space industry, eventually, they will simply be able to afford more stuff. if i read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a lunar facility. that was certainly partially the case with apollo, but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have the money, why not?" approach. it's conceivable that luna will have a military purpose, it's possible that luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred years at least. therefore, lunar bases should be predicated on funding levels little different from those found for antarctic bases. can you put a 200 person base on the moon for $30 million a year? even if you use grad students? gary coffman ke4zv | you make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary destructive testing systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 shannon way | guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary lawrenceville, ga 30244 | | 
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<instance id="sci.space60875">
<answer instance="sci.space60875" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this was known as *journey to the far side of the sun* in the united states and as *doppelganger* in the u.k... later, they went on to do more live-action sf series: *ufo* and *space: 1999*. the astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, vtol airliners, and mighty portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to look at. exactly. some of the space:1999 effects remain first-rate even today. they recycled a lot of models and theme music for ufo. some of the concepts even showed up in space: 1999. later on, the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in tv history by flying "into infinity." this was a one-off thing done as part of bbc's "educational sf" series "the day after tomorrow." the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light ("lightship altares"), the four-man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy (i think). i saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very much, but then again i was a fan of space:1999 so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days:-) does anyone know if "into infinity" has been released on video? i have some space:1999 shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc. also are available in marcu$ software engineering? that's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > sysmgr@cadlab.eng.umd.edu < -- 
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 is the film from the "putt-putt" test vehicle which used conventional explosives as a proof-of-concept test, or another one? c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/ c/ nathan f. wallace c/c/ "reality is" c/ c/ e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu c/c/ ancient alphaean proverb c/ c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/c/ 
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<instance id="sci.space60879">
<answer instance="sci.space60879" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> >the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'. these |> >are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a |> >three body system. the probe was launched into this region for the |> >earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to |> >allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow |> >down. the idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without |> >expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". the |> >originator of the technique said that nasa wasn't interested, but that japan |> >was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for |> >deceleration. |> i should probably re-post this with another title, so that |> the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical |> use of "temporary orbits..." |> another possible temporary orbit: |> phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. |> pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man if you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained you should try and find the following paper: hiroshi yamakawa, jun'ichiro kawaguchi, nobuaki ishii, and hiroki matsuo, "a numerical study of gravitational capture orbit in the earth-moon system," aas-92-186, aas/aiaa spaceflight mechanics meeting, colorado springs, colorado, 1992. the references included in this paper are quite interesting also and include several that are specific to the hiten mission itself. | * _!!!!_ * | | steven davis * / \ \ * | | daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov * (<o><o>) * | | * \>_db_</ * mcdonnell douglas | | - i don't represent * |vv| * space systems company| | anybody but myself. - * (__) * houston division | 
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<instance id="sci.space60882">
<answer instance="sci.space60882" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the sdio has "contracted" with the nrl (naval research laboratory) to fly the clementine mission. btw we call it dspse (deep space project science experiment). the nrl is building the spacecraft, designing the detailed mission and doing the integration and operations (with help from, jpl & goddard & prob. some folks i have left out...don't be mad). i am on the tamp (trajectory analysis & mission planning) team and am responsable for the iv&v of the traj that goddard/csc are designing. as for why sdio is doing it, some of the reasons are: 1) the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the lidar in leo 2) in leo we don't get any new radiation data on the sensors, we will get that data on our 9 passages through the van allen (sp?) belts 3) since we are going out there...why not piggy-back some general science 4) the intercept problem is a lot easied over long distances and long times i am sure there are some things i have forgotten, and some i haven't been told but, those are the reasons we all talk about. jim blackshear jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.space60883">
<answer instance="sci.space60883" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 can these questions be answered for a previous instance, such as the gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting? orbital elements of comet 1977vii (from dance files) p(au) 3.424346 e 0.151899 i 1.0988 cap_omega(0) 243.5652 w(0) 231.1607 epoch 1977.04110 thanks for the information! i assume p is the semi-major axis and e the eccentricity. the peri- helion and aphelion are then given by p(1-e) and p(1+e), i.e., about 2.90 and 3.95 au respectively. for jupiter, they are 4.95 and 5.45 au. if 1977 was after the temporary capture, this means that the comet ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 au to jupiter's -- which i take to be a rough indication of how far from jupiter it could get under jupiter's influence. also, perihelions of gehrels3 were: april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 ~3 jupiter radii where 1 jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 au. so the 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove. is that the case for the 1973 figure as well? mark brader, softquad inc., toronto "remember the golgafrinchans" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- pete granger this article is in the public domain. 
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<instance id="sci.space60884">
<answer instance="sci.space60884" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 later on, the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in tv history by flying "into infinity." this was a one-off thing done as part of bbc's "educational sf" series "the day after tomorrow." the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light ("lightship altares"), the four-man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy (i think). i saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very much, but then again i was a fan of space:1999 so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days:-) wow. i was beginning to think that i had made that up. i remember that movie (it was about 1.5 hours long). i don't think they ended up anywhere in the known universe. i remember they got a message halfway out to proxima centauri, that earth transmitted a day after they launched, timed to catch up with them at the halfway point. i thought it was neat, i think i was all of 10 at the time. does anyone know if "into infinity" has been released on video? i have some space:1999 shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc. also are available in space:1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in american stores. i will look for the into infinity show, i never did know that was the name of it, i thought the show was called "the day after tomorrow", and that was it. if you blow fire against the wind, take care to not get the smoke in your eyes. big & growly dragon-monster | bafta@cats.ucsc.edu --------> shari brooks <-------- | brooks@anarchy.arc.nasa.gov the above opinions are solely my own. 
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<instance id="sci.space60886">
<answer instance="sci.space60886" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i've just read richard langley's latest "navstar gps constellation status". it states that the latest satellite was placed in orbit plane position c-3. there is already one satellite in that position. i know that it's almost ten years since that satellite was launched but it's still in operation so why not use it until it goes off? why not instead place the new satellite at b-4 since that position is empty and by this measure have an almost complete gps-constellation (23 out of 24)? /thomas ericsson telecom, stockholm, sweden thomas enblom, just another employee. 
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 has anyone heard of or played buzz aldrin's race into space? does anyone know when it is expected to be released...? thanx, tom. 
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<instance id="sci.space60888">
<answer instance="sci.space60888" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 posted to the internet by wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu 000062david42 041493003715 the lunar tele-operation model one (ltm1) by david h. mitchell march 23, 1993 introduction: in order to increase public interest in space-based and lunar operations, a real miniature lunar-like environment is being constructed on which to test tele-operated models. these models are remotely-controlled by individuals located world-wide using their personal computers, for edutainment not only does this provide a test-bed for simple tele-operation and tele-presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of on methods of operating in space, including, but not limited to, layout of lunar colony, tele-operating machines for work and play, disseminating educational information, providing contests and awards for creativity and achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in twenty-first century remote learning methods. because of the nature of the ltm1 project, people of all ages, interests skills can contribute scenery and murals, models and structures, and electronics, software and graphics. in operation ltm1 is an evolving playground and laboratory that can be used by children, students and professionals worldwide. using a personal computer at home or a terminal at a participating institution a user is able to tele-operate real models at ltm1 base for experimental or recreational purposes. because a real exists, ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the of the lunar model, its operation and new features to be added as suggested by the users themselves. this has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups: - tele-operations and virtual reality research - radio control, model railroad and ham radio operation - astronomy and space planetariums and science centers - art and theater - bbs and online network users - software and game developers - manufacturers and retailers of model rockets, cars and trains - the child in all of us ltm1 overall design: a room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout. the walls are used for murals of distant moon mountains, star fields and a view of the earth. the "floor" is the simulated lunar surface. a global call for contributions is hereby made for material for the lunar surface, and for the design and creation of scale models of lunar colony elements, scenery, and machine-lets. the ltm1 initial design has 3 tele-operated machinelets: 1. an ssto scale model which will be able to lift off, hover and land; 2. a bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area; and 3. a moon-train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface. each machinelet has a small tv camera utilizing a ccd tv chip mounted on it. a personal computer digitizes the image (including reducing picture content and doing data-compression to allow for minimal images to be sent to the operator for control purposes) and also return control signals. the first machinelet to be set up will be the moon-train since model trains with tv cameras built in are almost off-the-shelf items and control electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal. the user will receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their data link to ltm1. next, an ssto scale model with a ccd tv chip will be suspended from a servo-motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the to be controlled by the operator to take off, hover over the entire lunar landscape and land. finally, some tank models will be modified to be ccd tv chip equipped bulldozerlets. the entire initial ltm1 will allow remote operators to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and takeoff, traveling and doing work. the entire system is based on available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced ham radio operator and computer hardware/software developers. by taking a graphically oriented communications program (dmodem) and adding a tele-operations screen and controls, the necessary user interface can be provided in under 80 man hours. plan of action: the diaspar virtual reality network has agreed to sponsor this project by providing a host computer network and internet access to that network. diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction of the lunar model. diaspar has, in stock, the electronic tanks that can be modified and one ccd tv chip. diaspar also agrees to provide "rail stock" for the lunar train model. diaspar will make available the dmodem graphical communications package and modify it for control of the machines-lets. an initial "ground breaking" with miniature shovels will be performed for a live photo-session and news conference on april 30, 1993. the initial models will be put in place. a time-lapse record will be started for historical purposes. it is not expected that this event will be completely serious or solemn. the lunar colony will be declared open for additional building, operations and experiments. a photographer will be present and the photographs taken will be converted to .gif images for distribution world-wide to major online networks and bbs's. a press release will be calling for contributions of ideas, time, talent, materials and scale for the simulated lunar colony. a contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then announced. universities will be invited to participate, the goal being to find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of the lunar colony model. field trips to ltm1 can be arranged and at that the results of the class work will be added to the model. contributors will then be able to tele-operate any contributed machine-lets once they return their campus. a monthly ltm1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via conventional means to the media. any major new tele-operated equipment addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media. having a large, real model space colony will be a very attractive photo opportunity for the television community. especially since the "action" be controlled by people all over the world. science fiction writers will be invited to issue "challenges" to engineering and human factors students at universities to build and operate the tele-operated equipment to perform lunar tasks. using counter-weight and pulley systems, 1/6 gravity may be simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges. the long term goal is creating world-wide interest, education, and remote operation of a lunar colony. ltm1 has the potential of being a term global edutainment method for space activities and may be the generic example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited to space edutainment. all of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars! conclusion: edutainment is the blending of education and entertainment. anyone who has ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a globally available layout for recreation, education and experimentation purposes. by creating a tele-operated model lunar colony we not only create world-wide publicity, but also a method of trying new ideas that require (not virtual) skills and open a new method for putting people's minds in moonlighters: "illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development." the following people are already engaged in various parts of this work: david42, rob47, dash, hyson, jzer0, vril, wyatt, the dark one, tiggertoo, the mad hatter, sir robin, jogden. come join the discussion any friday night from 10:30 to midnight pst in diaspar virtual reality network. ideas welcome! internet telnet to: 192.215.11.1 or diaspar.com (voice) 714-376-1776 (2400bd) 714-376-1200 (9600bd) 714-376-1234 email inquiries to ltm1 project leader jzer@hydra.unm.edu or directly to jzer0 on diaspar. 
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<instance id="sci.space60889">
<answer instance="sci.space60889" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment, and i'd really like to see it. has anyone out there seen it? i've seen a film of it, my memory may be faulty, but as i remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long, with a thick baseplate 30-40 cm in diameter. i think the narrative said it was propelled by dynamite sticks. there were four detonations within about 2 s, the second coming after about 2 m of flight in. max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m, but that is hard to judge. urban fredriksson urf@icl.se 
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<instance id="sci.space60891">
<answer instance="sci.space60891" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike. it can actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than from the ground. but with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to reach more orbits than from the ground. also remember, that the presence of a repair/supply facility adds value to the space around it. if you can put your satellite in an orbit where it can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain benefit from economies of scale. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------58 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60894">
<answer instance="sci.space60894" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the work is privately funded, the data belongs to sbv. i don't see either george or fred, scoriating ibm research division for not releasing data. we publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look. .sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one. greg nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private) 
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<instance id="sci.space60895">
<answer instance="sci.space60895" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers... sorry, mark. i think i can. largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened: 1. nasa reprogrammed funds to keep nasp alive in 1991. 2. efforts to kill dc-x and the ssrt progam where twice twarted (feb. and june of last year). 3. gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him. this may not be what mark was thinking of but it shows that the readers of sci.space do have power and influence. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------58 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60896">
<answer instance="sci.space60896" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae, and so forth? if so, is there any ftp site where i can get one? there are several star map programs available. your job is to choose that you like. try anonymous-ftp from: ftp.funet.fi:pub/astro/pc/stars pc/solar -veikko- 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60897">
<answer instance="sci.space60897" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and i ought not to post when i've a hundred some odd posts to go, but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic. since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would _without_ space industry, eventually, they will simply be able to afford more stuff. if i read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a lunar facility. that was certainly partially the case with apollo, but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have the money, why not?" approach. ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not wasted on the moon. it's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000r?) bills to fuel their moon-dozers. the money to fund a lunar base would be spent in the country to which the base belonged. it's a way of funding high-tech research, just like darpa was a good excuse to fund various fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the defense of the country, or like esprit is a good excuse for the ec to fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-european now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of money (in fact, i'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at the size of that multiplier :->). nick haines nickh@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60900">
<answer instance="sci.space60900" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the national air & space museum has both the prototype and the film. when i was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating. great! i'll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month with my wife, who was also working at general atomic at the time. once again netnews has enriched my life. sorry to put a damper on your plans, but i was there three weeks ago and it wasn't there. not that i would have known to look for it, of course, but i combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that would have caught my attention instantly. this is news. this is your | peter scott, nasa/jpl/caltech brain on news. any questions? | (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov) 
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<instance id="sci.space60901">
<answer instance="sci.space60901" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 zillion lines in response to article <1993apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>, in which allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article <17apr199316423628@judy.uh.edu>, in which dennis wrote another zillion lines in response to allen. hey, can it you guys. take it to email, or talk.politics.space, or alt.flame, or alt.music.pop.will.eat.itself.the.poppies.are.on.patrol, or anywhere, but this is sci.space. this thread lost all scientific content many moons ago. nick haines nickh@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60905">
<answer instance="sci.space60905" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from doug griffith, magellan project manager magellan status report april 16, 1993 1. the magellan mission at venus continues normally, gathering gravity data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper mantle which can be correlated to surface topography. spacecraft performance is nominal. 2. magellan has completed 7225 orbits of venus and is now 39 days from the end of cycle-4 and the start of the transition experiment. 3. no significant activities are expected next week, as preparations for aerobraking continue on schedule. 4. on monday morning, april 19, the moon will occult venus and interrupt the tracking of magellan for about 68 minutes. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space60908">
<answer instance="sci.space60908" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 we run "spacenews & views" on our stareach bbs, a local operation running wwiv software with the capability to link to over 1500 other bbs's in the u.s.a. and canada through wwivnet. having just started this a couple of months ago, our sub us currently subscribed by only about ten other boards, but more are being added. we get our news articles re on internet, via ftp from nasa sites, and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals. we get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students who access the system. | george hastings ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu | | space science teacher 72407.22@compuserve.com | if it's not | mathematics & science center stareach bbs: 804-343-6533 | fun, it's | 2304 hartman street office: 804-343-6525 | probably not | richmond, va 23223 fax: 804-343-6529 | science! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60909">
<answer instance="sci.space60909" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 with the continuin talk about the "end of the space age" and complaints by government over the large cost, why not try something i read about that might just work. announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed. there'd be a different kind of space race then! gene@theporch.raider.net (gene wright) theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 the macinteresteds of nashville if that were true, i'd go for it.. i have a few friends who we could pool our resources and do it.. maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "solar car race" in australia.. anybody game for a contest! michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60915">
<answer instance="sci.space60915" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 just a pointer to the article in the current science news article on federal r&d funding. very briefly, all r&d is being shifted to gaining current competitive advantage from things like military and other work that does not have as much commercial utility. chuck divine 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60917">
<answer instance="sci.space60917" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 well, we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting responders. however, just in case the other posting was overlooked by an incredibly talented person ... mea culpa for posting this here for mike, but we're looking for someone special: tandem computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help us architect & implement a fault-tolerant generalized instrumentation subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel (tns kernel). the tns kernel is a proprietary, loosely-coupled parallel, message-based operating system. the tns kernel has wide connectivity to open standards. in this key individual contributor role, you will work with other developers working on various components of the transaction management your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories (3 of 4 would be excellent): category 1. math: working knowledge of statistics, real analysis, as used in experimental physics or chemistry, or in engineering. category 2. working knowledge of telemetry issues-- i.e. time series, autocorrelation, and statistical correlation of data streams. category 3. integration & test -- instrumentation of systems under test, i.e. payloads, flight modules, etc. category 4: software engineering: programming skills, algorithms, and systems software techniques. please send your resume to mike fleice, tandem computers 10555 ridgeview ct., loc 100-27, cupertino, ca 95014-0789; fax (408) 285-0813; or e-mail fleice_mike@tandem.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60920">
<answer instance="sci.space60920" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 keesler, loftus, potter, stansbery, kubriek....? i gues it is keesler. the others do not ring the bell but they might be involved as well. sometime ago keesler was here at langley teaching a course on space debris and, if my memory does not fai,l i think there was even a reference to a book on the subject. c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov claudio oliveira egalon 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60923">
<answer instance="sci.space60923" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a and with $1b on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly likely to involve more than just the lunar environment! "oh dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of acme's base and they all died. how sad. gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents." "quick boss, the slime from yoyodyne are back, and this time they've got a tank! man the guns!" one could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that sort of environment..... (i'm kidding, btw, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness military procurement programs. and $1b is probably far too small a reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk proposition.) gregory bond <gnb@bby.com.au> burdett buckeridge & young ltd melbourne australia knox's 386 is slick. fox in sox, on knox's box knox's box is very quick. plays lots of lsl. he's sick! (apologies to john "iron bar" mackin.) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60924">
<answer instance="sci.space60924" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 aw&st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th at crystal city virginia, under the auspices of aiaa. does anyone know more about this? how much, to attend???? a good summary has been posted (thanks), but i wanted to add another comment. i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this, in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. sorry i don't rember where i heard this, but i'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. anyone else know anything on this angle? hrumph. they didn't send _me_ anything :( josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60926">
<answer instance="sci.space60926" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 hi all, i'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following companies. specifically, i need addresses for their personnel offices or like bureau. the companies are: - orbital sciences corp. (sp?) - spacehab, inc. (i know this one is somewhere in seattle, wa, or at least part of it is.) - space industries, inc. (somewhere in houston) - space enterprises inc. if anybody could point me in the right direction on this, i would be most appreciative. i prefer an email response, but i will post a summary if sufficient interest exists. mitch-------------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60928">
<answer instance="sci.space60928" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic booms. having taken various relevant classes, i have several ideas of where they come from, but none of them are very convincing. exactly what causes them? are they a one time pheneomenon, or a constant one like the supersonic shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane, but you hear only when it goes over you? | carlos g. niederstrasser | only two things are infinite, | | princeton planetary society | the universe and human | | | stupidity, and i'm not sure | | | about the former. - einstein | | carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------| | space@phoenix.princeton.edu | ad astra per ardua nostra | 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60930">
<answer instance="sci.space60930" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i'm writing a science fiction script and i'm looking for some answers to questions regarding the moon and earth. my starting point is an impossible situation. [i checked with a professor at berkeley and his response was a very helpful "can't happen".] if you enjoy playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions please contact me via e-mail (jennise@dgi.com). i get extremely annoyed when screen and tele-plays ignore basic facts about computers that i'm determined to be as scientifically accurate as i can. sorry for being vague, but i'd like to protect my idea as much as i can until i'm ready to sell it (hopefully). 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60931">
<answer instance="sci.space60931" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 sorry but i forgot this ps. right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so it's kind of necessary (to me) that any responses be sent to me directly. thanks a lot jennise@dgi.com 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60936">
<answer instance="sci.space60936" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i think if there is to be a prize and such.. there should be "classes" such as the following: large corp. small corp/company (based on reported earnings?) large government (gnp and such) small governemtn (or political clout or gnp?) large organization (planetary society? and such?) small organization (alot of small orgs..) the organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ?? of course this means the prize might go up. larger get more or ?? basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class winners.. more fair? there would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events, umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want to risk thier own lives let them do it?). any other ideas?? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60939">
<answer instance="sci.space60939" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use as a reuseable sounding rocket? dc-x as is today isn't suitable for this. however, the followon sdio funds will. a reusable sounding rocket was always sdio's goal. thank ghod! i had thought that spacelifter would definitely be the bastard son of nls. so did i. there is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon which should be very favorable. the insiders have been very bush briefing the right people and it is now paying off. however, public support is still critical. in politics you need to keep constant pressure on elected officials. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------57 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60943">
<answer instance="sci.space60943" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 joint press release esa/un no 18-93 paris, 19 april 1993 un/esa joint training course on satellite applications to be held in italy, 19-30 april the united nations and the european space agency (esa) are jointly organising a training course on the applications of satellite data gathered by the european remote sensing satellite (ers-1), to be held in frascati, italy, from 19 to 30 april. the training course will discuss the applications of satellite data concerning natural resources, renewable energy and the environment. the training course, organised for the benefit of francophone african experts, will be hosted by esrin, the european space agency's establishment in frascati, which is responsible for coordination with the users of data from esa's remote sensing satellite. twenty-four experts in the field of remote sensing, selected from 19 francophone countries from northern, western and central africa, and three regional african centres, will attend the two-week session. the course will focus on remote sensing techniques and data applications, particularly ers-1 the ers-1 satellite, developed by esa and launched in 1991 with the european ariane launcher, carries an advanced radar instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year 2000. the aim of the training course is to increase the potential of experts using the practical applications of radar remote sensing systems to natural resources, renewable energy and the environment, with particular emphasis on applications to geology and mineral prospecting, oceanography and near- coastal areas, agriculture, forestry and meteorology. the education and practical training programme was developed jointly by the united nations and esa. the facilities and the technical support, as well as lecturers and information documents for the training course, will be provided by the agency. lecturers at the training course will include high-level experts from other european and african organisations active in remote sensing applications. funds for the training course are being provided by the united nations trust fund for new and renewable sources of energy; the primary contributor to that fund is the government of italy. a similar training course is being planned for latin american 
</context>
</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60953">
<answer instance="sci.space60953" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 with the continuin talk about the "end of the space age" and complaints by government over the large cost, why not try something i read about that might just work. announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed. there'd be a different kind of space race then! i'll say! imagine that there were a couple groups up there, maybe landing a few weeks apart. the year-mark starts coming on for the first group. isn't a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential winner? "yeah, that's a shame that team a's life support gave out so close to the deadline. thanks for the billion." on the other hand, if apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more than only 1 billion to get any takers? -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60954">
<answer instance="sci.space60954" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 nick haines sez; (given that i've heard the shuttle software rated as level 5 in maturity, i strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case). level 5? out of how many? what are the different levels? i've never heard of this rating system. anyone care to clue me in? -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60956">
<answer instance="sci.space60956" senseid="sci.space"/>
<context>
 i think if there is to be a prize and such.. there should be "classes" such as the following: large corp. small corp/company (based on reported earnings?) large government (gnp and such) small governemtn (or political clout or gnp?) large organization (planetary society? and such?) small organization (alot of small orgs..) whatabout, schools, universities, rich individuals (around 250 people in the uk have more than 10 million dollars each). i reecieved mail from people who claimed they might get a person into space for $500 per pound. send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money among the ground crew! the organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ?? of course this means the prize might go up. larger get more or ?? basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class winners.. more fair? there would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events, umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want to risk thier own lives let them do it?). agreed. i volunteer for any uk attempts. but one clause: no launch methods which are clearly dangerous to the environment (ours or someone else's). no usage of materials from areas of planetary importance. any other ideas?? yes: we should *do* this rather than talk about it. lobby people! the major problem with the space programmes is all talk/paperwork and no action! michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked marvin batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck "and they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base, that their fathers put there just the night before. at about 8 o'clock!" 
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<instance id="sci.space60957">
<answer instance="sci.space60957" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this, in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. the general chairman is paul bialla, who is some official of general the emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people* on the moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. you'd think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but there's not a hint of this in the brochure. it may be that they just didn't mention it, or that they actually haven't thought about it. i got the vague impression from their mission proposal that they weren't taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing. they seemed to want to land people on the moon by the end of the decade without explaining why, or what they would do once they got there. the only application i remember from the av week article was placing a telescope on the moon. that's great, but they don't explain why it can't be done robotically. hrumph. they didn't send _me_ anything :( you're not hanging out with the right people, apparently. but i'm a _member_. besides bill, i hang out with you :) josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space60958">
<answer instance="sci.space60958" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar i was at an interesting seminar at work (uk's r.a.l. space science dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale solar sail proposed as a student space project. the guy giving the talk was keen to generate interest in the project. i'll typein the handout he gave out at the meeting. here goes : [stuff deleted] however it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most people realize. the pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per square kilometer. ^^^^ ^^^^ i'm glad to see that someone is working on this. however, it would be nice if he got his units right. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space60960">
<answer instance="sci.space60960" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. for example, why couldn't magellan just be told to go into a "safe" mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low-power-use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again. for that matter, why exactly were the apollo lunar experiments "turned off" rather than just "safed". was it political (i.e. as along as they could be used, someone would keep bugging congress for funds)? turning them off keeps them pesky scientists out of the bureaucrat's hair.... i've heard the argument that an active but "uncontrolled" spacecraft causes "radio noise." i find that hard to believe that this could be a problem in a properly designed "safe" mode. this safe mode could be a program routine which causes the spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation, and once a (week, month, year, whatever) attempts a signal lock on earth. at that time, if funding has been restored, the mission can continue. if no signal is recieved, the spacecraft goes back to the safe mode for another time period. as we would know when the spacecraft is going to try to contact earth, we could be prepared if necessary. as another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is beam stored data towards earth. if someone can receive it, great, if not, so it's lost and no big deal. by making the time and signal location generally known, perhaps someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the data even if they're not willing to contact the spacecraft. i see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to places which are otherwise unaccessible (jupiter/saturn orbit, exiting the solar system, etc). perhaps those designing future spacecraft (cassini, pluto flyby, etc) should consider designing in a "pause" mode in case their spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of the primary mission. perhaps mars observer and galilleo could have some kind of routine written in for the post mission "drift" phase. so any holes in all this? /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "i believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving | | the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the | | moon and returning him safely to the earth." | | <john f. kennedy; may 25, 1961> | 
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<instance id="sci.space60961">
<answer instance="sci.space60961" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 be the site of major commercial activity. as far as we know it has no materials we can't get cheaper right here on earth or from asteroids and comets, aside from the semi-mythic he3 that *might* be useful in low grade fusion reactors. i don't know what a "low grade" fusion reactor is, but the major problem with 3he (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some fractions, but still very small). massive amounts of regolith would have to be processed. this thread reminds me of wingo's claims some time ago about the moon as a source of titanium for use on earth. as i recall, wingo wasn't content with being assured that titanium (at .5% in the earth's crust, average) would not run out, and touted lunar mines, even though the market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around $.06/pound. this prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources. on the moon, titanium occurs in basalts; "high-ti" basalts (apollo 11 and 17) have 8-14% titanium dioxide (by weight). this is nice, but... terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in titanium. they very often have 3% tio2, frequently have 4%, and sometimes even 5% tio2 (again, by weight). these flood basalts are *enormous* -- millions of cubic kilometers, scattered all over the world (siberia, brazil, the nw united states, ethiopia, etc.). if even 1% of the basalts are 5% tio2, this is trillions of tons of tio2 at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-ti basalts. it is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being mined today). paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60963">
<answer instance="sci.space60963" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the nasm photo archives are open to the public. all (or almost all) still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but i don't know about films. at least it might be worth a try. i'm not sure if appointments are necessary, but i think not. is posible to make copies of these photographs (or any other aerospace photographs at nasm) if you pay a copyright fee? andres c. gaeris || "living example of the application of newton's junior laser fusioneer || zeroth law: agae@lle.rochester.edu || `every body in rest wants to remain in bed'" 
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<instance id="sci.space60967">
<answer instance="sci.space60967" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why paul, it's obvious. once chlorine chemistry has been banned on earth, as is being advocated by some groups, ti prices will sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to assume any developments in ti processing). lunar ti will then be eminently competitive for the trendy jewelry market and certain applications of national importance well, there already is a sulfate process for tio2 purification. the chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving dominance in the marketplace. most ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced white lead pigment some decades ago. very little is reduced to the seriously, i'd say there is a flaw in gary's analysis in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe the lunatics will just want some native ti for local use... which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.) paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60968">
<answer instance="sci.space60968" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the rollout was great and i got lots of great shots. i attended the press briefing and got shots of the dc-y model, too. all in 3d david h. mitchell are you still planing on scanning these and posting them somewhere? hope hope hope. if you could that would be great. thanks for report of the rollout as well take care they did the rollout already??!? i am going to have to pay more attention to the news. are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive?? patrick grady |how do they manage it, these humans-beginning pwg25888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |each time so innocently, yet always ending up pwg25888@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu |with the most blood on their hands? |fathertree to bugger, o.s. card's _xenocide_ 
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<instance id="sci.space60970">
<answer instance="sci.space60970" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a ssto, but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists. actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough to do ssto development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. of course, they may be over-optimistic. you can also assume that a working ssto would have other applications that would help pay for its development costs. i'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1g might be enough. this all sounds like that indecent proposal movie. wouldn't there be a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just to get the dough? if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10mil, then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero. just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make you --dong 
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<instance id="sci.space60971">
<answer instance="sci.space60971" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 from the article "what's new" apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research: what's new (in my opinion), friday, 16 april 1993 washington, dc 1. space billboards! is this one the "spinoffs" we were promised? in 1950, science fiction writer robert heinlein published "the man who sold the moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard. nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future. observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with "schwarzenegger" painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets. space marketing inc. had arranged for the ad to promote arnold's latest movie. now, space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth orbit. nasa would provide contractual launch services. however, since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates (wn 26 mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. this may look like environmental vandalism, but mike lawson, ceo of space marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment! the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs. what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky? it is not even april 1 anymore. what about light pollution in observations? (i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night). is nasa really supporting this junk? are protesting groups being organized in the states? really, really depressed. vincenzo liguori | enzo@research.canon.oz.au canon information systems research australia | phone +61 2 805 2983 po box 313 north ryde nsw 2113 | fax +61 2 805 2929 
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<instance id="sci.space60972">
<answer instance="sci.space60972" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae, and so forth? if so, is there any ftp site where i can get one? i posted my public-domain msdos program "sunlight.zip" to "sci.astro" yesterday. it easily locates the sun, moon, and planets, and can also be used to locate other objects if you input their right ascesion and declination. use "uudecode" to extract. robert sheaffer - scepticus maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com past chairman, the bay area skeptics - for whom i speak only when authorized! "marxism and feminism are one and that one is marxism" - heidi hartmann and amy bridges, quoted by catharine mackinnon above the first chapter of her "toward a feminist theory of the state" 
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<instance id="sci.space60973">
<answer instance="sci.space60973" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails. [...] are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ? bill says ... also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by louis friedman, a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, josh), i presume the one you refer to is "space sailing" by jerome l. wright. he worked on solar sails while at jpl and as ceo of general astronautics. i'll furnish ordering info upon request. the friedman book is called "starsailing: solar sails and interstellar travel." it was available from the planetary society a few years ago, i don't know if it still is. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space60974">
<answer instance="sci.space60974" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton/centaur combo? i don't know a whole lot on proton, but given that it is a multi stage rocket, up to 4 stages, it may not really need the centaur, plus it may end up seriously beating on said centaur. also, the centaur is not small, unless the proton has an oversize shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it. dennis, you know much about this? 
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<instance id="sci.space60977">
<answer instance="sci.space60977" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 some birds require constant management for survival. pointing a sensor at the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out. pointing a parabolic antenna at sol, from venus orbit may trash the foci elements. even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena. 
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<instance id="sci.space60978">
<answer instance="sci.space60978" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i saw in the newspaper last night that dr. mae jemison, the first black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew on endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the "star trek: the next generation" episode that airs the week of may 31. it's hardly space science, i know, but it's interesting. doug loss interesting is rigth.. i wonder if they will make a mention of her being an astronaut in the credits.. i think it might help people connect the future of space with the present.. and give them an idea that we must go into space.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space60979">
<answer instance="sci.space60979" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1g might be enough. this all sounds like that indecent proposal movie. wouldn't there be a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just to get the dough? if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10mil, then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero. just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make you any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability, rather than a lucky one-shot. it can be done. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space60980">
<answer instance="sci.space60980" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 on the other hand, if apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more than only 1 billion to get any takers? apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited technology base... and on government contracts. just doing it privately, rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space60985">
<answer instance="sci.space60985" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such.. why not?? if you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion beacon, to take a directional plot on?? wierd or what? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space60987">
<answer instance="sci.space60987" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 hmm. $1 billion, lesse... i can probably launch 100 tons to leo at $200 million, in five years, which gives about 20 tons to the lunar surface one-way. say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its fuel, a bigger mercury or something (might get that as low as two tons), leaving fifteen tons for a one-man habitat and a year's supplies? gee, with that sort of mass margins i can build the systems off the shelf for about another hundred million tops. that leaves about $700 million profit. i like this idea 8-) let's see if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8-) 8-) [slightly seriously] -george william herbert retro aerospace 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space60988">
<answer instance="sci.space60988" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 hideous vision of the future. observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with "schwarzenegger" painted in huge block letters on the this is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*. what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky? it is not even april 1 anymore. if this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in terrorism. this is unbelievable! who do those people think they are, selling every bit that promises to make money? i guess we really deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "stupidity wins". i guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers. another depressed planetary citizen, uwe "hoover" schuerkamp hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de clear skies --- fight light pollution! 
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<instance id="sci.space60990">
<answer instance="sci.space60990" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.) paul-- for the same reason that many other colonies are founded. why not? charlie prael - dante@shakala.com shakala bbs (clanzen radio network) sunnyvale, ca +1-408-734-2289 
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<instance id="sci.space60992">
<answer instance="sci.space60992" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 also, peri[jove]s of gehrels3 were: thanks again. one final question. the name gehrels wasn't known to me before this thread came up, but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the "inconstant cosmos", with a photo of neil gehrels, project scientist for nasa's compton gamma ray observatory. same person? i would guess not. dr. neil gehrels of cgro is the son of dr. tom gehrels of the university of arizona. since he's long had research interests in asteroids and other solar-system astronomy, tom is the one more likely to have discovered a comet (and thus had his name attached to it). tom gehrels is a leader in the spacewatch project, which has recently increased mankind's discovery rate on near-earth asteroids (they're finding a couple every month). for much more on this interesting guy, read his autobiography, *on a glassy sea*. "do you know the asteroids, mr.kemp?... bill higgins hundreds of thousands of them. all wandering around the sun in strange fermilab orbits. some never named, never charted. the orphans of the solar higgins@fnal.fnal.gov system, mr. kemp." higgins@fnal.bitnet "and you want to become a father." --*moon zero two* span/hepnet: 43011::higgins 
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<instance id="sci.space60993">
<answer instance="sci.space60993" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such.. why not?? if you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion beacon, to take a directional plot on?? wierd or what? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked there is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites in the process of being phased out right now. the transit/oscar satellites are being replaced by gps. or were you thinking of deep space navigation, which is best done with doppler/vlbi/ stellar measurements. i do not think additional radio beacons would help much. dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa, ontario, canada internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca 
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<instance id="sci.space60994">
<answer instance="sci.space60994" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-) sherzer methodology!!!!!! software engineering? that's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > sysmgr@cadlab.eng.umd.edu < -- 
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<instance id="sci.space60996">
<answer instance="sci.space60996" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what is the deal with life on mars? i save the "face" and heard associated theories. (which sound thin to me) are we going back to mars to look at this face agian? does anyone buy all the life theories? don schiewer | internet schiewer@pa881a.inland.com | onward great inland steel | uucp: !uucp!pa881a.inland!schiewer | stream... 
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<instance id="sci.space60997">
<answer instance="sci.space60997" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 so how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the u.s. government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida? why would you want to do that? the goal is to do it cheaper (remember, this isn't government). instead of leasing an expensive launch pad, just use a ssto and launch from a much cheaper facility. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------56 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space60998">
<answer instance="sci.space60998" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 nick haines sez; (given that i've heard the shuttle software rated as level 5 in maturity, i strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case). level 5? out of how many? what are the different levels? i've never heard of this rating system. anyone care to clue me in? this is a rating system used by arpa and other organisations to measure the maturity of a `software process' i.e. the entire process by which software gets designed, written, tested, delivered, supported see `managing the software process', by watts s. humphrey, addison wesley 1989. an excellent software engineering text. the 5 levels of software process maturity are: 1. initial 2. repeatable 3. defined 4. managed 5. optimizing the levels are approximately characterized as follows: 1. no statistically software process control. have no statistical basis for estimating how large software will be, how long it will take to produce, how expensive it will be, or how reliable it will be. most software production is at this level. 2. stable process with statistical controls, rigorous project management; having done something once, can do it again. projects are planned in detail, and there is software configuration management and quality assurance. 3. the process is defined and understood, implementation is consistent. this includes things like software inspection, a rigorous software testing framework, more configuration management, and typically a `software engineering process group' within the 4. statistical information on the software is systematically gathered and analysed, and the process is controlled on the basis of this information. software quality is measured and has goals. 5. defects are prevented, the process is automated, software contracts are effective and certified. nick haines nickh@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space60999">
<answer instance="sci.space60999" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> okay here is what i have so far: |> have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon, |> set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. does |> that mean no resupply or ?? |> need to find atleast $1billion for prize money. my first thought is ross perot. after further consideration, i think he'd be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third. try bill gates. try sam walton's kids. matthew_feulner@qmlink.draper.com 
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<instance id="sci.space61001">
<answer instance="sci.space61001" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this, in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. sorry i don't rember where i heard this, but i'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. anyone else know anything on this angle? if by that you mean anything on the gd approach, there was an article on it in a recent avation week. i don't remember the exact date but it was | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------56 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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<instance id="sci.space61003">
<answer instance="sci.space61003" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 all of this talk about a commercial space race (i.e. $1g to the first 1-year moon base) is intriguing. similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before. the $25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers. if memory serves, the $25k prize would not have been enough to totally reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects (such as fokker's, nungesser and other multi-engine projects). however lindbergh ultimately kept his total costs below that amount. but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than $25,000. could it work with the moon? who are the far-sighted financial backers of layne cook cook@apt.mdc.com mcdonnell douglas space systems co. 
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<instance id="sci.space61004">
<answer instance="sci.space61004" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what is the deal with life on mars? i save the "face" and heard associated theories. (which sound thin to me) are we going back to mars to look at this face agian? does anyone buy all the life theories? try alt.alien.visitors 
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<instance id="sci.space61006">
<answer instance="sci.space61006" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> need to find atleast $1billion for prize money. my first thought is ross perot. after further consideration, i think he'd be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third. try bill gates. try sam walton's kids. when the lunar society's $500m estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was mentioned at making orbit, somebody asked jerry pournelle "have you talked to bill gates?". the answer: "yes. he says that if he were going to sink that much money into it, he'd want to run it -- and he doesn't have the time." (somebody then asked him about perot. answer: "having ross perot on your board may be a bigger problem than not having the money.") all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61007">
<answer instance="sci.space61007" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what is the deal with life on mars? i save the "face" and heard associated theories. (which sound thin to me) the "face" is an accident of light and shadow. there are many "faces" in landforms on earth; none is artificial (well, excluding mount rushmore and the like...). there is also a smiley face on mars, and a kermit the frog. the question of life in a more mundane sense -- bacteria or the like -- is not quite closed, although the odds are against it, and the most that the more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils. there are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life. are we going back to mars to look at this face agian? mars observer, currently approaching mars, will probably try to get a better image or two of the "face" at some point. it's not high priority; nobody takes it very seriously. the shadowed half of the face does not look very face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin the illusion. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61010">
<answer instance="sci.space61010" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 c-3's bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon. or c-3 may orbit over major users areas, and it may be needed to provide redundancy on that plane while b-4 may orbit over hicksville, and not have muc of a user community. 
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<instance id="sci.space61011">
<answer instance="sci.space61011" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 all of this talk about a commercial space race (i.e. $1g to the first 1-year moon base) is intriguing. similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before. the $25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers. but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than $25,000. could it work with the moon? who are the far-sighted financial backers of the commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled- and-civilized areas are obvious. spaceflight is not in this position. the correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery. it didn't require gov't to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination. in practice, some were gov't funded, some were private. but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff. i am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop, and large numbers of people will live and work off-earth. but if you ask me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base, i can't give them. we just don't know enough. the launch rate demanded by existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much, and we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries will be, when they will practical, how much will have to be invested to start them, etc. keith mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> | n5wvr <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> | "black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, | when your back's against the wall...." -leslie fish | 
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<instance id="sci.space61014">
<answer instance="sci.space61014" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. for example, why couldn't magellan just be told to go into a "safe" mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low-power-use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again. one consideration to remember is that if you don't turn it off now, you may not be able to later. this isn't a case of reaching over and flipping a switch; much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly to execute a "turn off" command successfully. spacecraft do malfunction in their old age. the big concern is not radio clutter from idle spacecraft, but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can no longer be turned off. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61015">
<answer instance="sci.space61015" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton/centaur combo? i don't know a whole lot on proton, but given that it is a multi stage rocket, up to 4 stages, it may not really need the centaur, plus it may end up seriously beating on said centaur. the proton has been used in 2, 3, and 4 stage versions. the two stage version was used for the first 3 launches, while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used today. the four stage version is used mostly for escape (and geosynchronous?) orbits, while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits. since this is the version that launched mir and the salyuts (and the add-on modules for mir), as long as centaur is smaller than mir (which i believe it is), it should fit under the shroud. i vaguely recall that the russians are developing a lh2/lox upper stage for the chris jones clj@ksr.com 
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<instance id="sci.space61017">
<answer instance="sci.space61017" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 orbiting billboard... i would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital velocity. for a target 300 km above the surface of earth, you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s. assuming that rockets with specific impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer... unfortunately, if you launch this from the us (or are a us citizen), you will need a launch permit from the office of commercial space transportation, and i think it may be difficult to get a permit for an antisatellite weapon... :-) the threshold at which ocst licensing kicks in is roughly 100km. (the rules are actually phrased in more complex ways, but that is the result.) all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61018">
<answer instance="sci.space61018" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what's new (in my opinion), friday, 16 april 1993 washington, dc 1. space billboards! is this one the "spinoffs" we were promised? in 1950, science fiction writer robert heinlein published "the man who sold the moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard. nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future. observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with "schwarzenegger" painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets. space marketing inc. had arranged for the ad to promote arnold's latest movie. well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct some of this moral outrage towards glavcosmos as well. they pioneered this capitalist application of booster adverts long before nasa. (sign of the times: a sony logo on a soyuz launcher...) now, space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth this sounds like something lowell wood would think of. does anyone know if he's involved? nasa would provide contractual launch services. however, since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates (wn 26 mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. this may look like environmental vandalism, but mike lawson, ceo of space marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment! the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs. this may be the purpose for the university of colorado people. my guess is that the purpose for the livermore people is to learn how to build large, inflatable space structures. what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky? it is not even april 1 anymore. if this is true, i think it's a great idea. learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential step towards space development, and given that freedom appears to be shrinking towards the vanishing point, i question whether nasa's space station is going to provide much, if any, knowledge in this area. (especially if a design such as faget's wingless orbiter is chosen...) if such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so much the better. is nasa really supporting this junk? and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip? how serious is this project? is this just in the "wild idea" stage or does it have real funding? are protesting groups being organized in the states? not yet. though, if this project goes through, i suppose the return of jeremy rifkin is inevitable... brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu department of computer engineering and science 
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<instance id="sci.space61019">
<answer instance="sci.space61019" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a ssto, but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists. actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough to do ssto development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. of course, they may be over-optimistic. in spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, i think their cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. if nothing else, a working ssto is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience base. it therefore seems that ssto development should cost at least as much as a typical airliner development. that puts it in the $3g to $5g for the purpose of a contest, i'd bet some things could be cut. like fuel for re-entry, any kind of heat shielding, etc., etc. even still, if the contest participants had to fund dc-1 development, it probably wouldn't be worth it to develop dc-1 (just for the contest). just give me the cheapest heaviest lift man rated (or at least under 6 or so gs) booster... if i don't have to pay for dc-1 development, great!, i'll use it. but back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in aw&st about a low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon. a general dynamics scheme involving a titan iv & shuttle to lift a centaur upper stage, lev, and crew capsule. the mission consists of delivering two unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission. total cost: us was $10-$13 billion. joint esa(?)/nasa project was $6-$9 billion for the us share. i didn't find a mention of how long the crew could stay, but i'd bet that its around 30 days. and the total payload delivered was about 30 metric tonnes. so if you ignore the scientific payload, hitch a ride in the crew habitation module (no return trip...), and toss in a few more tonnes for the additional consumables to last another 11 months, then you *might* be able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes (and in case its not obvious, that's a wild ass guess). a pretty boring visit, since every trip outdoors eats up a bit of lox. and i'm not certain if a home brewed (or college-brewed) life support system could last a year. but let's round this up to 19.4 tonnes (convient, since the gd plan talks about 9.7 ton payloads delivered to the lunar surface. this adds up to two centaurs, two levs, two shuttle flights... all to put a single man on the moon for a year. hmmm. not really practical. anyone got a cheaper/better way of delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade? anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year's supply of consumables and equipment would weigh? and i was wondering about the gd lev. is it reusable? or is it discarded to burn up on return to leo? if its not discarded, could it be refueled? henry: do you know anything about the gd lev? i noted that it uses rl-10 engines. aren't they reusable/restartable? would a lev fit in a dc-1? i've forgotten (if i ever knew) what the cargo bay dimensions are for the dc-1. all in all, i'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the moon for a year is wise and/or useful. how about: a prize for the first non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a manned moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth. find some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure... having a single goal might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared to win. and for those that didn't give up, i find something a little scary about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters. i'd like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition. lastly, about ten or fifteen years back i seem to recall that there was an english space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases on the cheap. i recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from solar flares, etc. unfortunately i don't remember the name of this magazine. does this ring a bell to anyone? craig keithley |"i don't remember, i don't recall, apple computer, inc. |i got no memory of anything at all" keithley@apple.com |peter gabriel, third album (1980) 
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<instance id="sci.space61020">
<answer instance="sci.space61020" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 also, peri[jove]s of gehrels3 were: april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 ~3 jupiter radii where 1 jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 au. ... sorry, _perijoves_...i'm not used to talking this language. thanks again. one final question. the name gehrels wasn't known to me before this thread came up, but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the "inconstant cosmos", with a photo of neil gehrels, project scientist for nasa's compton gamma ray observatory. same person? mark brader, softquad inc., toronto "information! ... we want information!" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- the prisoner this article is in the public domain. 
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<instance id="sci.space61021">
<answer instance="sci.space61021" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from john spencer (spencer@lowell.edu): there will be two eclipses of iapetus by saturn and its rings, in may and july. please spread the word! here's some information about the events, and then a couple of messages from jay goguen of jpl appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to learn more about the thermal properties of iapetus. he might also have some money available... john spencer, 1993/04/21 iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of saturn's rings and saturn itself on 1993/05/01-02 (18:27-13:43 ut) and again on 1993/07/20-21, (21:16-09:38 ut). timing is as follows; 1993 may 1-2 a-ring ingress 18:27 egress 19:30 b-ring ingress 19:51 egress 21:42 c-ring egress 23:00 saturn ingress 23:59 egress 10:02 b-ring ingress 10:28 egress 12:19 a-ring ingress 12:40 egress 13:43 1993 july 20-21 saturn ingress 21:16 egress 05:08 a-ring ingress 05:13 (grazing) egress 09:38 times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris, and photometric observations are important for refining iapetus' orbit. because the sun's size projected on the rings as seen from iapetus is 3100 km it's unlikely that we will learn anything new about the rings themselves from the observations. see soma (1992), astronomy and astrophysics 265, l21-l24 for more details. thanks to andy odell of northern arizona university for bringing the events to my thermal observations? to me, the interesting thing to do would be thermal ir of the 20 july disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia, etc. unfortunately, the 21:30 ut of this event renders it inaccessible, except from russia. even from calar alto, saturn is rising through 3 airmasses at 23:00 ut. do you know anyone in russia or ukraine with a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation that's looking for something to do? i'd be willing to make a personal grant of >$100 for the data. and again: please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths. my impression would be that it's not an easy observation. iapetus will be faint and getting fainter in eclipse, so you'll need a big telescope that's a good ir telescope and reasonable 10 - 20 um instrumentation. i don't think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are well placed for observation. we need sofia for this one. one possibility would be the ir telescope in india, but it's only a 1.2 m. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61022">
<answer instance="sci.space61022" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 some time ago i sent the following message: every once in a while i design an orbital space colony. i'm gearing up to do another one. i'd some info from you. if you were to move onto a space colony to live permanently, how big would the colony have to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable? specifically, how many people do you want to share the colony with? what physical dimensions does the living are need to have? assume 1g living (the colony will rotate). assume that you can leave from time to time for vacations and business trips. if you're young enough, assume that you'll raise your children there. i didn't get a lot of responses, and they were all over the block. thanx muchly to all those who responded, it is good food for thought. here's the (edited) responses i got: how many people do you want to share the colony with? what physical dimensions does the living are need to have? cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long rui sousa ruca@saber-si.pt how many people do you want to share the colony with? 100,000 - 250,000 what physical dimensions does the living are need to have? 100 square kms surface, divided into city, towns, villages and countryside. must have lakes, rivers amd mountains. how many 1000. 1000 people really isn't that large a number; everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year, and will probably be sick of everyone else within another year. what physical dimensions does the living are need to have? hm. i am not all that great at figuring it out. but i would maximize the percentage of colony-space that is accessible to humans. esecially if there were to be children, since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways. and everyone, especially me, likes to "go exploring"...i would want to be able to go for a walk and see something different each time... for population, i think i would want a substantial town -- big enough to have strangers in it. this helps get away from the small-town "everybody knows everything" syndrome, which some people like but i don't. call it several thousand people. for physical dimensions, a somewhat similar criterion: big enough to contain surprises, at least until you spent considerable time getting to know it. as a more specific rule of thumb, big enough for there to be places at least an hour away on foot. call that 5km, which means a 10km circumference if we're talking a sphere. henry spencer at u of toronto zoology henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry my desires, for permanent move to a space colony, assuming easy communication and travel: size: about a small-town size, say 9 sq. km. 'course, bigger is better :-) population: about 100/sq km or less. so, ~1000 for 9sqkm. less is better for elbow room, more for interest and sanity, so say max 3000, min 300. -tommy mac tom mcwilliams | 517-355-2178 (work) \\ inhale to the chief! 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu | 336-9591 (hm)\\ zonker harris in 1996! 
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<instance id="sci.space61024">
<answer instance="sci.space61024" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. for example, why couldn't magellan just be told to go into a "safe" mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low-power-use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again. it can be, but the problem is a political one, not a technical one. also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode (probably a spin-stabilized sun-pointing orientation) is a dollar not spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft. in order to turn the spacecraft back on, you either need to insure that the ops guys will be available, or you need to retrain a new team. having said that, there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed. many of the operational satellites goddard flies (like the tiros noaa series) require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set. extras which get replaced on-orbit are powered into a "standby" mode for use in an emergency. in that case, however, the same ops team is still required to fly the operational birds; so the standby maintenance is relatively cheap. finally, pat's explanation (some spacecraft require continuous maintenance to stay under control) is also right on the mark. i suggested a spin- stabilized control mode because it would require little power or maintenance, but it still might require some momentum dumping from time to time. in the end, it *is* a political decision (since the difference is money), but there is some technical rationale behind the decision. david w. @ gsfc 
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<instance id="sci.space61025">
<answer instance="sci.space61025" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will be significant commerical activity on the moon? wishful thinking mostly. [lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbase=fantasyland] then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the earth? i'm not trying to flame you. i just want to know where you chuck chung (919) 660-2539 (o) duke university dept. of physics (919) 684-1517 (h) durham, n.c. 27706 cchung@phy.duke.edu "if pro is the opposite of con, then what is the opposite of progress?" 
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<instance id="sci.space61026">
<answer instance="sci.space61026" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton/centaur combo? what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other than the obvious instability in the xssr now)? i haven't seen any speculation about it. but, the salyut kb (design bureau) was planning a new lh/lox second stage for the proton which would boost payload to leo from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (geostationary goes from 2600 kg. (gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. this scheme was competing with the energia-m last year and i haven't heard which won, except now i recently read that the central specialized kb was working on the successor to the soyuz booster which must be the energia-m. so the early results are energia-m won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in russia. i'm sure if salyut kb gets funds from someone they will continue their development. the centaur for the altas is about 3 meters dia. and the proton is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the block-d which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. i don't know about launch loads, etc.. but since the centaur survives titan launches which are probably worse than the proton (those titan srb's probably shake things up pretty good) it seems feasible. except, the centaur is a very fragile thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now. protons are assembled and transported horizontially. does anyone know how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track and erected on the pad? they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads (unless the new proton second stage is actually built), and of course any centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the us at great cost. these systems may viloate us law so there are political problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention. dennis newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com) motorola, land mobile products sector schaumburg, il 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61028">
<answer instance="sci.space61028" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> >has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton/centaur combo? |> >what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other |> >than the obvious instability in the xssr now)? |> the centaur for the altas is about 3 meters dia. and the proton |> is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the block-d |> which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. i don't know about |> launch loads, etc.. but since the centaur survives titan launches which |> are probably worse than the proton (those titan srb's probably shake things |> up pretty good) it seems feasible. except, the centaur is a very fragile |> thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now. |> protons are assembled and transported horizontially. does anyone know |> how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while |> bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track |> and erected on the pad? the centaur that is being built for t4 would be a better bet to integrate onto the proton as the t4/centaur is designed for the extremely harsh envorinment of the t4 launch. it is also closer to 4 m in diameter. you've hit on the real kicker, however. the centaur is pressure stabilized. it cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks. additionally, the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to ~+/- 5 psi. that is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train. the pressure stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance. on numerous occasions (when i was there 88-91) the af wanted to see what it would take to make a non-pressure stabilized centaur. the answer -- a centaur not worth launching. the atlas/centaur does not require on-pad integration, however the t4/centaur does. i believe the on-pad integration is to a great extent due to the cleanliness requirements and pfl configuration, so maybe something can be done there........ |> they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads |> (unless the new proton second stage is actually built), and of course |> any centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the |> us at great cost. these systems may viloate us law so there are political |> problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention. the addition of lox/lh facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it lifts off. a lhe facility is also needed. i don't know what the proton uses for fuel, but since they are derived from icbm's i would suspect that they use storable propellants which don't have the ullage problem that cryo's do. if there is no cryo at the sight at all, the addition of these systems could be big $$, not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with providing centaur gse to russia. that issue alone might be enough to kill this idea. h.d. stevens stanford university email:hdsteven@sun-valley.stanford.edu aerospace robotics laboratory phone: (415) 725-3293 (lab) durand building (415) 722-3296 (bullpen) stanford, ca 94305 fax: (415) 725-3377 
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<instance id="sci.space61029">
<answer instance="sci.space61029" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 prb@access.digex.com (pat) pontificated: some birds require constant management for survival. pointing a sensor at the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out. pointing a parabolic antenna at sol, from venus orbit may trash the foci elements. what i was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be possible to put enough brains on board future deep-space probes for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble. i heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in that essentially says "if you never hear from earth again, here's what to do." this was a back up in the event a receiver burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but still some data). even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena. since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for startup, if some type of cosmic bem took out the probe, it might not be such a big loss. obviously you can't plan for everything, but the most obvious things can be considered. /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "i know you believe you understand what it is that you | | think i said. but i am not sure that you realize that | | what i said is not what i meant." | 
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<instance id="sci.space61032">
<answer instance="sci.space61032" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm a very amuture astronomer in adelaide australia, and today, i heard some very interesting and exciting news from a local program on tv. as i couldn't find anything on it on the news server, i have posted this. however, if it is old information, tell me, and ill sue the tv station for saying they are 'up to date' ;-) (also, my news server could be slow. . so . . .!!! i only caught the end of the article, so all the information on the topic is not known to me at the moment. the news is of a small 'psudo' planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a hawiian obsevatory, supposably 'recently' - acording to the report. it was meant to be about 150miles in diamater, and a faily large distance from the plutos orbit. (it had a computer drawing, and the orbit distance from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest apart. this is all i found out about it. oh it is called karna. (un-officially can anyone give any more information to me on it??? brendan woithe swoithe@crackle.aelmg.adelaide.edu.au btw - if this is old news, does anyone know a good lawyer. . . .8) 
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<instance id="sci.space61034">
<answer instance="sci.space61034" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 all of this talk about a commercial space race (i.e. $1g to the first 1-year moon base) is intriguing. similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before. the $25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers. but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than $25,000. could it work with the moon? who are the far-sighted financial backers of the commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled- and-civilized areas are obvious. spaceflight is not in this position. the correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery. lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties. it didn't require gov't to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination. in practice, some were gov't funded, some were private. could you give examples of privately funded ones? but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff. your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies. however, the concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons, i suspect. i'm not aware that mr orteig received any significant economic benefit from lindbergh's flight. modern analogies, such as the prize for a human powered helicopter face similar arguments. there is little economic benefit in such a thing. the advantage comes in the new approaches developed and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the equivalent amount of direct investment would. a person who puts up $ x billion for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money off the deal. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61035">
<answer instance="sci.space61035" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i have a nice quote that i like (or as close as i can remember it). if i say something that you think is crazy, ask me what i mean before you think its crazy.. so some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was wilbur and orville wright, and quite a few others.. sorry if i do not have the big degrees and such, but i think (i might be wrong, to error is human) i have something that is in many ways just as important, i have imagination, dreams. and without dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. sorry my two cents worth. or is it two rubles worth? the basic quote idea is from h. beam pipers book "space vikings". its a good book on how civilization can fall, and how it can be raised to new heights. unfortunately h. beam piper killed him self just weeks short of having his first book published, and have his ideas see light.. such a waste. 
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<instance id="sci.space61036">
<answer instance="sci.space61036" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited technology base... and on government contracts. just doing it privately, rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several. so how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the u.s. government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida? software engineering? that's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > sysmgr@cadlab.eng.umd.edu < -- why must it be a us government space launch pad? directly i mean.. i know of a few that could launch a small package into space. not including ariadne, and the russian sites.. i know "poker flats" here in alaska, thou used to be only sounding rockets for auroral borealous(sp and other northern atmospheric items, is at last i heard being upgraded to be able to put sattelites into orbit. why must people in the us be fixed on using nasas direct resources (poker flats is runin part by nasa, but also by the univesity of alaska, and the geophysical institute). sounds like typical us cultural centralism and protectionism.. and people wonder why we have the multi-trillion dollar deficite(sp). yes, i am working on a spell checker.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61038">
<answer instance="sci.space61038" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth.. you think this is crazy. well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality. there is a billin the congress to do just that.. basically to make it so expensive to mine minerals in the us, unless you can by off the inspectors or tax collectors.. ascially what i understand from talking to a few miner friends of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there normal taxes. so by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and other expenses you can owe more than what you made. basically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe 600.00 in federal taxes.. bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. and the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks.. basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the eco-freaks or the protectionist.. such fun we have in these interesting times.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61040">
<answer instance="sci.space61040" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 speech by pete worden delivered before the u.s. space foundation conference colorado springs, colorado april 15, 1993 what a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble. for providing me this forum i would sincerely like to thank the u.s. space foundation. my topic today is the single stage rocket technology rocket or ssrt. by i intend to speak of more. how to lower the cost and make rapid progress. ssrt is to my mind -- and i hope to convince you -- the erupting a new rallying cry for our generation in space -- faster, cheaper, and better. faster, cheaper, better and ssrt represent the passing of a torch from one technical generation to another. it is a new thing to be sure -- but it is also a relearning of old things from past masters. when we rolled out the ssrt baby two weeks ago, so called experts told us it violates the laws of physics -- it made no sense. for example, dr. eberhart rachtin - former president of the aerospace corp., said of ssrt in the l.a. times that it, "defies the best principles of launching payloads into space." well dr. rachtin -- you've made us mad! what are these principles that ssrt defies? well i'll tell you. it violates the principle that you need a giant program office to build space hardware. it violates the "fact" that it takes 20 years to build something new. and it violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for less than many billions of dollars. it took some of the last generation's experts to teach us some new/old lessons. werhner von braun's first rocket was not a saturn v. general schriever's icbm's didn't take ten years to demonstrate. and the x-1 airplane didn't cost $1 billion. it took one of the great engineers of the 1950's to remind us of these truths -- max hunter. max, to remind you, was a senior engineer in the thor irbm program, and old faster, better, cheaper success story. max has been persistent in a vision of a single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960's. because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps - build a little, test a little. next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration. we didn't solicit a bunch of requirements -- they'd just change every few years anyway. [ not included in the speech -- the als/nls has such ephemeral requirements that it would better known as "shape shifter" than "space lifter." we didn't spend a lot money -- this x-rocket only cost $60 million. when's the last time we even built a new airplane for that? and it didn't take a lot of time to build -- mcdonnell douglas completed it in 18 months. finally, the government program office consisted of one very over-worked air force major -- motivated in part by the threat that he'd get to ride on it in a strapped-on lawn chair if it ran over cost or schedule. as i described what ssrt is -- and isn't keep in mind its only a first step. there are several more steps -- and steps that can easily fail -- before the u.s. can field an ssto. but each step should follow the same principles -- a small management team -- a few years technology demonstration -- and a modest let me show a few details on ssrt and how it might evolve: (see charts) i'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's and 1960's. they went to the moon - we built a telescope that can't see straight. they soft-landed on mars - the least we could do is soft-land on earth! but we do have an answer. we can follow their build a little, test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable and routine access to space. i know there are nay sayers among you -- those who say ssrt is a stunt. it needs more thermal protection, the engines are wrong, it would be better to land horizontally, etc, etc. i say to you -- we'll see you at white sands in june. you bring your view-graphs, and i'll bring my rocketship. if we do what we say we can do, then you let us do the next step. [ not included in the speech: if we fail -- you still have your program offices, staff summary sheets, requirement analyses, and decade long programs.] i bet on my generation and max hunter's idea -- any takers? 
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 well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative the question i have about the proton, is could it be handled at one of ksc's spare pads, without major malfunction, or could it be handled at kourou or vandenberg? now if it uses storables, then how long would it take for the russians to equip something at cape york? if proton were launched from a western site, how would it compare to the t4/centaur? as i see it, it should lift very close to the t4. 
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 unfortunately h. beam piper killed him self just weeks short of having his first book published, and have his ideas see light.. such a waste. piper lived in my town (williamsport, pa) when he killed himself. it was in the early '60's. he had had more than a few books published by that time, but he was down on his luck financially. rumor was that he was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food. he viewed himself as a resourceful man, and (imo) decided to check out gracefully if he couldn't support himself. the worst part is that john campbell, the long-time editor of astounding/analog sf magazine had cut a check for piper's most recent story, and said check was in the mail. if campbell had known piper's straits, i'm sure he would have phoned to say hang on. campbell was like that. i wish it had happened differently. i always enjoyed piper's stuff. doug loss 
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<instance id="sci.space61046">
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 hideous vision of the future. observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with "schwarzenegger" painted in huge block letters on the this is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*. what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky? it is not even april 1 anymore. if this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in terrorism. this is unbelievable! who do those people think they are, selling every bit that promises to make money? i guess we really deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "stupidity wins". i guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers. another depressed planetary citizen, this isn't inherently bad. this isn't really light pollution since it will only be visible shortly before or after dusk (or during the day). (of course, if night only lasts 2 hours for you, you're probably going to be inconvienenced. but you're inconvienenced anyway in that case). finally: this isn't the bronze age, and most of us aren't indo european; those people speaking indo-eurpoean languages often have much non-indo-european ancestry and cultural background. so: please try to remember that there are more human activities than those practiced by the warrior caste, the farming caste, and the and why act distressed that someone's found a way to do research that doesn't involve socialism? it certianly doesn't mean we deserve to die. phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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 +i love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... it will be a +really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt (or even better, a +westford needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec. pageos and two echo balloons were inflated with a substance which expanded in vacuum. once inflated the substance was no longer needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse. this inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no disastrous deflation. bruce watson (wats@scicom.alphacdc.com) bulletin 629-49 item 6700 extract 75,131 
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<instance id="sci.space61051">
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 also, peri[jove]s of gehrels3 were: april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 ~3 jupiter radii where 1 jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 au. ... sorry, _perijoves_...i'm not used to talking this language. thanks again. one final question. the name gehrels wasn't known to me before this thread came up, but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the "inconstant cosmos", with a photo of neil gehrels, project scientist for nasa's compton gamma ray observatory. same person? neil gehrels is prof. tom gehrels son. tom gehrels was the discoverer of p/gehrels 3 (as well as about 4 other comets - the latest of which does not bear his name, but rather the name "spacewatch" since he was observing with that system when he found the latest comet). mark brader, softquad inc., toronto "information! ... we want information!" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- the prisoner jim scotti {jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu} lunar & planetary laboratory university of arizona tucson, az 85721 usa 
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 this discussion is better followed in talk.politics.space joseph cain cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu cain@fsu.bitnet scri::cain (904) 644-4014 fax (904) 644-4214 or -0098 
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<instance id="sci.space61057">
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 i'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following companies. specifically, i need addresses for their personnel offices or like bureau. the companies are: - space industries, inc. (somewhere in houston) 101 courageous dr. leage city, tx 77573 phone: (713) 538-6000 good luck! doug egan "it's not what you got - lockheed engineering and sciences co. it's what you give." houston, tx -tesla ***** email: egan@blkbox.com ***** 
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<instance id="sci.space61058">
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 prb@access.digex.com (pat) pontificated: i heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in that essentially says "if you never hear from earth again, here's what to do." this was a back up in the event a receiver burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but still some data). voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the solar system. all it's doing is collecting fields data, and routinely squirting it down. one of the mariners is also in stable solar orbit, and still providing similiar solar data. something in a planetary orbit, is subject to much more complex forces. comsats, in "stable " geosynch orbits, require almost daily stationkeeping operations. for the occasional deep space bird, like pff after pluto, sure it could be left on "auto-pilot". but things like galileo or magellan, i'd suspect they need enough housekeeping that even untended they'd end up unusable after a while. the better question should be. why not transfer o&m of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding to support these kind of ongoing science missions. when ongoing ops are mentioned, it seems to always quote operations and data analysis. how much would it cost to collect the data and let it be analyzed whenever. kinda like all that landsat data that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole. even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena. since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for startup, if some type of cosmic bem took out the probe, it might not be such a big loss. obviously you can't plan for everything, but the most obvious things can be considered. /~~~(-: james t. green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ | "i know you believe you understand what it is that you | | think i said. but i am not sure that you realize that | | what i said is not what i meant." | 
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<instance id="sci.space61060">
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 i once read an article on computer technology which stated that every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it replaced. silicon was less effective then the germanium products then available. gaas was less capable then silicon. multi-processors were slower then existent single processors. what the argument was, though was that these new technologies promised either theoretically future higher performance or lower cost or higher densities. i think that the dc-1 may g=fit into this same model. elv's can certainly launch more weight then a ssrt, but an ssrt offers the prospect of greater cycle times and lower costs. this is kind of a speculative posting, but i thought i'd throw it out as a hjistorical framework for those interested in the project. 
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<instance id="sci.space61063">
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 here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth.. if raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long before the space mines could be built. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------55 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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 hi guys, i've been hearing lots of talk on the net about dc-x and dc-y, but none of the many posts actually explain what they are !!! sorry if this is a faq, but would somebody please explain to me what they are. reply by email please . . . thanks. ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk andy jonathan j. broderick, | "i have come that they might have | rutherford lab., uk | life, and have it to the full" | mail : ajjb@adam2.bnsc.rl.ac.uk | - jesus christ | 
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 hmmm. i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record- players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems. mind you, my father was a vacuum-tube fan in the 60s (switched to solid-state in the mid-seventies and then abruptly died; no doubt there's a lesson in that) and his account could have been biased. james nicoll 
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<instance id="sci.space61066">
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 as for advertising -- sure, why not? a nasa friend and i spent one drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need to put the golden arches of a certain american fast food organization on the face of the moon. fortunately, we sobered up in the morning. hmmm. it actually isn't all that much, is it? like about 2 million km^2 (if you think that sounds like a lot, it's only a few tens of m^2 per burger that said organization sold last year). you'd be best off with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an unmanned craft in lunar orbit (or, rather, a large set of such craft). if you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new moon (since the moon itself is quite dark), and _bright_ at full moon. you might have to abandon the colour, though. buy a cheap launch system, design reusable moon -> lunar orbit unmanned spraying craft, build 50 said craft, establish a lunar base to extract tio2 (say: for colour you'd be better off with a sulphur compound, i suppose) and some sort of propellant, and bob's your uncle. i'll do it for, say, 20 billion dollars (plus changes of identity for me and all my loved ones). delivery date 2010. can we get the fast-food chain bidding against the fizzy-drink vendors? who else might be interested? would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km inflatable billboards in leo (or in geo, visible 24 hours from your key growth market). i'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of identity). nick haines nickh@cmu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61068">
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 pat sez; oddly, enough, the smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight. i would call it the granite years, reflecting the primitive nature of it. it was romantic, swashbuckling daredevils, "those daring young men in their flying machines". but in reality, it sucked. death was a highly likely occurence, and the environment blew. yeah, but a windscreen cut down most of it. canopies ended it completely. of course, the environment in space continues to suck :-) -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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 press release no.19-93 paris, 22 april 1993 users of esa's olympus satellite report on the outcome of their experiments "today europe's space telecommunications sector would not be blossoming as it now does, had olympus not provided a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s". this summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300 participants at the conference on olympus utilisation held in seville on 20-22-april 1993. the conference was organised by the european space agency (esa) and the spanish centre for the development of industrial technology (cdti). olympus has been particularly useful : - in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of new users, thanks to satellite terminals with very small antennas (vsats). olympus experiments have tested data transmission, videoconferencing, business television, distance teaching and rural telephony, to give but a few - in opening the door to new telecommunications services which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower- frequency bands; olympus was the first satellite over europe to offer capacity in the 20/30 ghz band. - in establishing two-way data relay links olympus received for the first time in europe, over several months, high-volume data from a low-earth orbiting spacecraft and then distributed it to various centres in europe. when olympus was launched on 12 july 1989 it was the world's largest telecommunications satellite; and no other satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands. olympus users range from individual experimenters to some of the world's largest businesses. access to the satellite is given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or services; over the past four years some 200 companies and organisations made use of this opportunity, as well as over 100 members of the eurostep distance-learning as the new technologies and services tested by these olympus users enter the commercial market, they then make use of operational satellites such as those of olympus utilisation will continue through 1993 and 1994, when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the end of its design life. 
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 |> > with the continuin talk about the "end of the space age" and complaints |> > by government over the large cost, why not try something i read about |> > that might just work. |> > announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation |> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. |> > then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin |> > to be developed. there'd be a different kind of space race then! |> > gene@theporch.raider.net (gene wright) |> > theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 the macinteresteds of nashville |> if that were true, i'd go for it.. i have a few friends who we could pool our |> resources and do it.. maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "solar car race" |> in australia.. |> anybody game for a contest! |> michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked oh gee, a billion dollars! that'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the feasability study! happy, happy, joy! joy! feasability study?? what a wimp!! while you are studying, others would be doing. too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering. "he who sits on his arse sits on his fortune" - sir richard francis burton dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 the centaur is controlled technology.. state dept will not allow it to be used outside of us. sorry. has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton/centaur combo? what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other than the obvious instability in the xssr now)? i haven't seen any speculation about it. but, the salyut kb (design bureau) was planning a new lh/lox second stage for the proton which would boost payload to leo from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (geostationary goes from 2600 kg. (gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. this scheme was competing with the energia-m last year and i haven't heard which won, except now i recently read that the central specialized kb was working on the successor to the soyuz booster which must be the energia-m. so the early results are energia-m won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in russia. i'm sure if salyut kb gets funds from someone they will continue their development. the centaur for the altas is about 3 meters dia. and the proton is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the block-d which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. i don't know about launch loads, etc.. but since the centaur survives titan launches which are probably worse than the proton (those titan srb's probably shake things up pretty good) it seems feasible. except, the centaur is a very fragile thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now. protons are assembled and transported horizontially. does anyone know how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track and erected on the pad? they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads (unless the new proton second stage is actually built), and of course any centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the us at great cost. these systems may viloate us law so there are political problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention. dennis newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com) motorola, land mobile products sector schaumburg, il 
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 seriously though. if you were to ask the british government whether their colonisation efforts in the americas were cost effective, what answer do you think you'd get? what if you asked in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-) what do you mean? are you saying they thought the effort was profitable or that the money was efficiently spent (providing max value per money spent)? i think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions. exceptions would be places like the us from the french indian war to the end of the us revolution. but even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the british engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies. five years after the american revolution england was still the largest us trading partner. | lady astor: "sir, if you were my husband i would poison your coffee!" | | w. churchill: "madam, if you were my wife, i would drink it." | +----------------------55 days to first flight of dcx-----------------------+ 
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 pageos and two echo balloons were inflated with a substance which expanded in vacuum. called "gas". once inflated the substance was no longer needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse. this inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no disastrous deflation. the balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced some air resistance. when they were finally punctured, this preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to catastrophically deflated. the large silvered shards that remained were easily visible for some time before reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder. the billboard should pop like a dime store balloon. 
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<instance id="sci.space61077">
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 apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited technology base... and on government contracts. just doing it privately, rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several. so how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the u.s. government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida? why use a ground launch pad. it is entirely posible to launch from altitude. this was what the shuttle was originally intended to do! it might be seriously also, what about bio-engineered co2 absorbing plants instead of many lox bottles? stick 'em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door. marvin batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck "and they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base, that their fathers put there just the night before. at about 8 o'clock!" 
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 hello. i am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times. would you mind posting the responses you get? i am also interested, and there may be others. n. shirlene pearson pearson@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu 
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<answer instance="sci.space61079" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 (given that i've heard the shuttle software rated as level 5 ... level 5? out of how many? ... ... also keep in mind that it was *not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand... i think this is a little inaccurate, based on feynman's account of the software-development process *before* the standdown. fred is basically correct: no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking care. but they got this one right *before* challenger; feynman cited the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people. (he also noted that the software people were starting to feel management pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.) among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure. as a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero. as fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software. software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of tender loving care. (none of the experimenters could afford it.) all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry news-software: ureply 3.1 x-x-from: wingert@vnet.ibm.com (bret wingert) references: <c5sy4s.4x2.1@cs.cmu.edu> <1993apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> <c5ubn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu> (given that i've heard the shuttle software rated as level 5 ... level 5? out of how many? ... ... also keep in mind that it was *not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand... i think this is a little inaccurate, based on feynman's account of the software-development process *before* the standdown. fred is basically correct: no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking care. but they got this one right *before* challenger; feynman cited the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people. (he also noted that the software people were starting to feel management pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.) as fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software. software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of tender loving care. a couple of points on this thread. 1. we have been using our processes since way before challenger. challenger in and of it self did not uncover flaws. 2. what mr. spencer says is by and large true. we have a process that is not dependent on "sophisticated tools" (case tools?). however, tools cannot fix a bad process. also, tool support for hal/s (the shuttle language) is somewhat limited. 3. the onboard flight software project was rated "level 5" by a nasa team. this group generates 20-40 kslocs of verified code per year for nasa. 4. feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info on our software development process. bret wingert (713)-282-7534 fax: (713)-282-8077 bret wingert (713)-282-7534 fax: (713)-282-8077 
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 on thu, 22 apr 1993 04:54:03 gmt, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu said: nsmca> so some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but nsmca> so was wilbur and orville wright, and quite a few others.. this is a common misconception. there was nothing "off the wall" about the wright brothers. they were in correspondance with a number of other experimenters (octave chanute, lillienthal, etc), they flew models, they had a wind tunnel. in short, they were quite mainstream and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community. i suggest you read the bishop's boys or the biography by harry gates? combs? (i can never remember which it is--the guy that had the fbos and owned learjet for a while). these are both in print and easily obtainable. the bishop's boys is in trade paperback, even. even better would be the multi-volume set of the wrights' writings, but this is out of print, rare, and hideously expensive. mary shafer dod #0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility, edwards, ca shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov of course i don't speak for nasa "a mig at your six is better than no mig at all." unknown us fighter pilot 
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<answer instance="sci.space61083" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 there are actually only two of us. i do henry, fred, tommy and mary. oh yeah, this isn't my real name, i'm a bald headed space baby. yes, and i do everyone else. why, you may wonder, don't i do 'fred'? well, that would just be too *obvious*, wouldn't it? oh yeah, this isn't my real name, either. i'm actually elvis. or maybe a lemur; i sometimes have difficulty telling which is which. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61086">
<answer instance="sci.space61086" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the $25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers. but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than $25,000. could it work with the moon? who are the far-sighted financial backers of today? the commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled- and-civilized areas are obvious. spaceflight is not in this position. the correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery. lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties. of course; sorry for the misunderstanding. i was referring to the fact that far more aeronautical development took place in the '30's. for much of the '20's, the super-abundance of jennies and ox-5 engines held down the industry. by 1926, many of the obsolete wwi aircraft had been retired and whirlwind had their power/weight ratio and reliability up to the point where long-distance flights became practical. it's important to note that the atlantic was flown not once but three times in 1927: lindbergh, chamberlin and levine, and byrd's _america_. "when it's time to railroad, you railroad." it didn't require gov't to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination. in practice, some were gov't funded, some were private. could you give examples of privately funded ones? not off the top of my head; i'll have to dig out my reference books again. however, i will say that the most common arrangement in prince henry the navigator's portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and merchants to put up the rest. they profits from the voyage would then be but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff. a person who puts up $x billion for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money off the deal. the problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a moon base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations can even consider putting up. the kremer prizes (human powered aircraft), orteig's prize, lord northcliffe's prize for crossing the atlantic (won in 1919 by alcock and brown) were much smaller. the technologies required were within the reach of individual inventors, and the prize amounts were well within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals. i think that only a gov't could afford to set up a $1b+ prize for any purpose whatsoever. note that burt rutan suggested that nasp could be built most cheaply by taking out an ad in avweek stating that the first company to build a plane that could take off and fly the profile would be handed $3b, no questions keith mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> | n5wvr <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> | "black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, | when your back's against the wall...." -leslie fish | 
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<instance id="sci.space61088">
<answer instance="sci.space61088" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 hmmm. i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record- players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems. i don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity, id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up. 
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<instance id="sci.space61089">
<answer instance="sci.space61089" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the question i have about the proton, is could it be handled at one of ksc's spare pads, without major malfunction, or could it be handled at kourou or vandenberg? seems like a lot of trouble to go to. its probably better to invest in newer launch systems. i don't think a big cost advantage for using russian systems will last for very long (maybe a few years). lockheed would be the place to ask, since you would probably have to buy the proton from them (they market the proton world wide except russia). they should know a lot about the possibilities, i haven't heard them propose us launches, so i assume they looked into it and found it now if it uses storables, yes... then how long would it take for the russians to equip something at cape york? comparable to the zenit i suppose, but since it looks like nothing will be built there, you might just as well pick any the message is: to launch now while its cheap and while russia and kazakstan are still cooperating. later, the story may be different. dennis newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com) motorola, land mobile products sector schaumburg, il 
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<instance id="sci.space61094">
<answer instance="sci.space61094" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in my first posting on this subject i threw out an idea of how to fund such a contest without delving to deep into the budget. i mentioned granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining rights.) somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are not anybody's to grant (although i imagine it would be a fait accompli situation for the winner.) so how about this? give the winning group (i can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year moratorium on taxes. tom freebairn 
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<instance id="sci.space61096">
<answer instance="sci.space61096" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from neal ausman, galileo mission director mission director status report post-launch april 16 - 22, 1993 1. on april 19, cruise science memory readouts (mros) were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer (euv), dust detector (dds), and magnetometer (mag) instruments. preliminary analysis indicates the data was received 2. on april 19, a command detector unit signal-to-noise ratio (cdusnr) test and a radio frequency subsystem automatic gain control (rfsagc) test were performed using the lga-1 (low gain antenna #1) over dss-63 (madrid 70 meter antenna) and dss-61 (madrid 34 meter antenna), respectively. data analysis is in process. these tests are periodically performed to provide detailed information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity. 3. on april 19, a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase. 4. on april 21, the first of two suppressed carrier/dsn (deep space network) advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over dss-14 (goldstone 70 meter antenna). the spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings. 5. the ac bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change (greater than 25 dn) throughout this period but the dc bus imbalance measurement has. the ac measurement reads 20 dn (4.5 volts). the dc measurement has ranged from 43 dn (4.6 volts) to 138 dn (16.2 volts) and currently reads 138 dn (16.2 volts). these measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ac/dc special anomaly team. 6. the spacecraft status as of april 22, 1993, is as follows: a) system power margin - 68 watts b) spin configuration - dual-spin c) spin rate/sensor - 3.15rpm/star scanner d) spacecraft attitude is approximately 21 degrees off-sun (lagging) and 5 degrees off-earth (leading) e) downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/lga-1 f) general thermal control - all temperatures within acceptable range g) rpm tank pressures - all within acceptable range h) orbiter science- instruments powered on are the pws, euv, uvs, epd, mag, hic, and dds i) probe/rrh - powered off, temperatures within acceptable range j) cmd loss timer setting - 264 hours time to initiation - 184 hours as of noon thursday, april 22, 1993, the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was as follows: distance from earth 169,747,800 km (1.14 au) distance from sun 286,967,900 km (1.92 au) heliocentric speed 91,200 km per hour distance from jupiter 532,735,900 km round trip light time 18 minutes, 58 seconds special topic 1. as of april 22, 1993, a total of 70185 real-time commands have been transmitted to galileo since launch. of these, 65077 were initiated in the sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the real-time command process. in the past week, one real time command was transmitted: one was initiated in the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command process. the only command activity was a command to reset the command loss ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61097">
<answer instance="sci.space61097" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what's new (in my opinion), friday, 16 april 1993 washington, dc now, space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth this sounds like something lowell wood would think of. does anyone know if he's involved? no. the idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible near-term commercial space activities. one of the folks involved in those discussions, a spacecraft engineer named preston carter, passed the suggestion on to some entreprenurial types, and mike lawson is apparently going ahead with it. preston is now at llnl, and is working with space marketing on the sensors that might be carried. nasa would provide contractual launch services. however, since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates (wn 26 mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. actually, that sounds unlikely. i don't know what the launch vehicle would be, but i would expect it to go on a commercial launcher -- certainly not on the shuttle -- and the fraction of the cost paid to nasa for, e.g., launch support would probably cover nasa's incremental costs pretty well. may look like environmental vandalism, but mike lawson, ceo of space marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment! the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs. this may be the purpose for the university of colorado people. my guess is that the purpose for the livermore people is to learn how to build large, inflatable space structures. no, as noted, llnl is involved in lightweight sensor design, per clementine and related programs. i'm sure folks around here would like to see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure, but after all, the u.s. did the echo satellites long ago, and an advertising structure would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than echo was (or a parade balloon, for that matter). what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky? it is not even april 1 anymore. while i happen to personally dislike the idea, mostly because i've got a background in astronomy, it's hardly vandalism -- it would be a short-lived intrusion on the night sky, doing no permanent damage and actually hurting only a small subset of astronomers. on the other hand, it would certainly draw attention to space. if this is true, i think it's a great idea. learning how to build structures in space in an essential step towards space development... which, unfortunately, this is not likely to contribute much to. if such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so much the better. is nasa really supporting this junk? as far as i know, it's a purely commercial venture. and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip? how serious is this project? is this just in the "wild idea" stage or does it have real funding? i gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers. commercial projects, however, generally don't get "funding" -- they get "customers" -- whether it will have customers remains to be seen. are protesting groups being organized in the states? not yet. though, if this project goes through, i suppose the return of jeremy rifkin is inevitable... nahh. he's too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in the sky :-) brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu department of computer engineering and science jordin kare jtk@s1.gov lawrence livermore national laboratory [these are my personal views only and do not represent official statements or positions of llnl, the university of california, or the u.s. doe.] 
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<instance id="sci.space61101">
<answer instance="sci.space61101" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back. i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention. it was from a company name "personal missle, inc." or something like that. the company was probably "public missiles, inc" of michigan. anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length and engines of sizes "f" to "m". they also said that some rockets will reach 50,000 feet. now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts, isn't this illegal? i can't imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes. not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down. nope, it's not illegal. it is, however, closely regulated. in order to purchase and use the big rocket motors required, it is necessary to be one of the following: a) an employee of a government agency. b) an employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets. c) a member or representative of an educational organization involved in research or other uses of rockets. there are two such organizations: the tripoli rocketry association and the national association of rocketry. members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own. the faa will issue a waiver of its regulations, upon request, to any organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions to avoid conflicts with aircraft. the usual stipulations are: - only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed. depending on the location, this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet agl. - the operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft within the operating radius around the launch site. - flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited. - the faa will provide a notam informing other users of the airspace that unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time. most of the launches that are held (and there are dozens of them every year) are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light, such as over the western deserts (the black rock desert north of reno is particularly popular since it is 25 x 150 miles of *nothing to hit* on the ground). the two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members' use, to insure safety. depending on motor size, the launcher setback is from 50 to 500 or more feet. by the way, rockets under 1 lb and powered by an "f" motor are exempt from most federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway. see far 101, subpart c, for details. as for recovery...although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to 50,000 feet, most of them only get to 2,000 to 5,000 feet. the typical rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter, and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute, or multiple parachutes, depending on the payload. many rockets also carry either a small transmitter or an audio sounder--particularly at launches in the eastern us, where there are more obstructions. camera, telemetry transmitter, and video payloads are becoming quite common. and no, i'm not going to even think of buying one. i'm not that crazy. why not? it's a lot of fun...check out the traffic on rec.models.rockets for information about the model (3 lb and under) and high power (everything bigger) rocket hobbies. as with all dangerous activities, the key is to practice safety. i've been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 4-5 lbs takeoff weight for 27 years, and still have all my extremities intact. -paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" dokas that's another thing. no explosive warheads of any kind are allowed on these rockets. none! please forgive me for shouting, but that's one of the biggest misconceptions people have about our hobby. /* just remember, you *will* die someday. */ true. but it will not be related to the rocket hobby, unless i get hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand. mark johnson usnail: ncr peripheral products division e-mail: mark.johnson@wichitaks.ncr.com 3718 n. rock rd. voice: (316) 636-8189 [v+ 654-8189] wichita, ks 67226 [non-business email: 76670.1775@compuserve.com] 
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<instance id="sci.space61103">
<answer instance="sci.space61103" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 you'd need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff. do you know of a private titan pad? you'd need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume no new launcher development. if you assume new launcher development, with lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to build something hlv-sized anyway. nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy titans. it doesn't take many titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large gas gun or a development program for a big dumb booster, all of which would have far better cost-effectiveness. 
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<instance id="sci.space61110">
<answer instance="sci.space61110" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in my first posting on this subject i threw out an idea of how to fund such a contest without delving to deep into the budget. i mentioned granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining rights.) somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are not anybody's to grant (although i imagine it would be a fait accompli situation for the winner.) so how about this? give the winning group (i can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year moratorium on taxes. tom freebairn who says there is no mineral rights to be given? who says? the un or the us major question is if you decide to mine the moon or mars, who will stop you? the un can't other than legal tom foolerie.. can the truly inforce it? if you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will stop you from doing it. maybe not acknowledge you? why can't a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great beyond of space? what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is not.. maybe i am a few years ahead on this.. it is liek the old catholic church stating which was portugals and what was spains, and along came the reformation and made it all null and void.. what can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what ever.. as long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble.. basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason or another, but who will give you a "home".. such as saudia arabia or whatever.. there are nations in the world who are not part of the un, got to them and offer your services and such.. i know that sound crazy, but. is it.. also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it. the un if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will not care.. if your worried about the us, do the same thing.. why be limited by the short sighted people of earth.. after all they have many other things to worry about that if someone is mining the moon or mars or what ever.. basically what i am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a little bit farther out, to do jus ta little bit more, and to tell the crown to piss off.. if my ancestors thought the way many today think, id have been born in central europe just north of the black sea.. i just read a good book, "tower of the gods" interesting.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61111">
<answer instance="sci.space61111" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining. they still mine coal in the midwest, but now it doesn't look like the moon when theyare done. i aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" i am talking the small miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).the people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point). i am talking the guy who coem to nome evry year, sets up his tent on the beach (the beach was washed away last year) and sets up his/her sluice box and goes at it "mining". i know the large corps, such as alaska gold company, might complain to.. my opinions are what i learn at the local bs table.. my original thing/idea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the eco-freaks thier way.. as they have done with other mineral development. you can't in many places can't go to the bathroom in the woods without some form of regulation covering it.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61113">
<answer instance="sci.space61113" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 are breathable liquids possible? i remember seeing an old nova or the nature of things where this idea was touched upon (it might have been some other tv show). if nothing else, i know such liquids are possible because... they showed a large glass full of this liquid, and put a white mouse (rat?) in it. since the liquid was not dense, the mouse would float, so it was held down by tongs clutching its tail. the thing struggled quite a bit, but it was certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid. it never did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top. now, this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations, but it certainly shows breathable liquids can be made. *isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___ * * _____/_o_\_____ * twinkle, twinkle, little .sig, *(==(/_______\)==) * keep it less than 5 lines big. * \==\/ \/==/ 
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<instance id="sci.space61114">
<answer instance="sci.space61114" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 so some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was wilbur and orville wright, and quite a few others.. sorry if i do not have the big degrees and such, but i think (i might be wrong, to error is human) i have something that is in many ways just as important, i have imagination, dreams. and without dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh? the alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most pernicious fallacys of the new age. michael, thanks for the generous offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you. you, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here) which would give your imagination wings. just to show this isn't a flame, i leave you with a quote from _invasion of the body snatchers_: "become one of us; it's not so bad, you know" ', ,',' | del cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,',' 
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<instance id="sci.space61117">
<answer instance="sci.space61117" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> 3. on april 19, a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to |> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase. this activity is regularly reported in ron's interesting posts. could someone explain what the command loss timer is? thanks, alan 1 belle vue court |"they're unfriendly, which | home: 0684 564438 32 belle vue terrace | is fortunate, really. they'd | away: 0628 784351 great malvern | be difficult to like." | work: 0628 794137 worcestershire | | wr14 4pz | kerr avon, blake's seven | temporary: agc@bnr.ca england | | permanent: alan@gid.co.uk 
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<instance id="sci.space61122">
<answer instance="sci.space61122" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows: "in a cavern, in a canyon, excavating for a mine, dwelt a miner, forty-niner, and his daughter, clementine" chorus: "oh my darling, oh my darling, oh my darling clementine. you are lost and gone forever, oh my darling clementine." let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the sentiments of the first verse (miner) rather than the second (lost and gone forever). bruce dunn vancouver, canada bruce_dunn@mindlink.bc.ca 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61124">
<answer instance="sci.space61124" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> 3. on april 19, a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to |> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase. this activity is regularly reported in ron's interesting posts. could someone explain what the command loss timer is? the command loss timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the spacecraft. if the command loss timer ever countdowns to zero, then the spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with earth and will go through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact. the command loss timer is set to 264 hours and reset about once a week during the cruise phase, and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61125">
<answer instance="sci.space61125" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral basically get the eco-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth. they aren't going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining. quite a few of those people are, when you come right down to it, basically against industrial civilization. they won't stop with shutting down the mines here; that is only a means to an end for them now. the worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without radical change. telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is treason of the vilest kind. trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to harness a buffalo to pull your plough. he's got plenty of muscle, all right, but the furrow will go where he wants, not where you want. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61127">
<answer instance="sci.space61127" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> ... a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer ... this activity is regularly reported in ron's interesting posts. could someone explain what the command loss timer is? if i'm not mistaken, this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of communications. that timer is counting down continuously; if it ever hits zero, that means galileo hasn't heard from earth in a suspiciously long time and it may be galileo's fault... so it's time to go into a fallback mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances of restoring contact. i don't know exactly what-all galileo does in such a situation, but a common example is to switch receivers, on the theory that maybe the one you're listening with has died. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61128">
<answer instance="sci.space61128" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> [pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about |> 2005 increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent |> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible. where does the shadow come from? there's nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them. i wouldn't expect there to be anything block our view of them either. what am i missing? 
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<instance id="sci.space61129">
<answer instance="sci.space61129" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [a good deal of healthy if not deeply thought out idealism deleted below.] major question is if you decide to mine the moon or mars, who will stop you? [...] can the truly inforce it? [...] if their parent company does business (and they will) on the face of the earth then they are vulnerable to govt. sanctions. yes they can be stopped. if you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will stop you from doing it. [...] for the first 100 - 500 (imho) years nobody will have to. the colonists will be too dependent on earth too pull it off. eventually they will, history shows us that. also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it. the un if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will not care [...] what exactly do you mean here? terrorism? start an international incident so your dream can come true? crack a few eggs to make the omelet? this sounds fairly irresponsible. basically what i am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a little bit farther out, to do jus ta little bit more, and to tell the crown to piss off.. if my ancestors thought the way many today think, id have been born in central europe just north of the black sea.. again, the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than any immigrants that have gone before. even those intrepid asian explorers that crossed the bering land bridge did not have to carry their air on their backs. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked keep the dream alive, maybe dream it a little more cogently. tom freebairn | there once was a man | who built a boat | to sail away in. | it sank. | j.p. donleavy _fairy tale of new york_ (maybe?) 
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<instance id="sci.space61131">
<answer instance="sci.space61131" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 interesting question about galileo. galileo's hga is stuck. the hga was left closed, because galileo had a venus flyby. if the hga were pointed att he sun, near venus, it would cook the foci elements. question: why couldn't galileo's course manuevers have been designed such that the hga did not ever do a sun point.? after all, it would normally be aimed at earth anyway? or would it be that an emergency situation i.e. spacecraft safing and seek might have caused an hga sun point? 
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<instance id="sci.space61132">
<answer instance="sci.space61132" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ed campion headquarters, washington, d.c. april 23, 1993 (phone: 202/358-1780) kyle herring johnson space center, houston (phone: 713/483-5111) release: 93-76 hubble telescope servicing mission scheduled for eleven days the december flight of endeavour on space shuttle mission sts-61 to service the hubble space telescope (hst) has been scheduled as an 11 day mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability for an additional two, if needed. the decision to schedule five extravehicular activities, or evas, was reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training, maneuver times required using the shuttle's robot arm based on software simulations and actual eva tasks on previous missions. "basically what we've done by going to five evas rather than three is to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the dynamics, or unknowns, of spacewalks," mission director randy brinkley said. "it improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real-time situations." in laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the spacewalks, officials have determined that changing out the gyros, solar arrays and the wide field/planetary camera (wf/pc) and installing the corrective optics space telescope axial replacement (costar) are priority objectives during the mission. "when we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks, highest through lowest priority, and recognizing that the major tasks -- gyros, solar arrays, wf/pc and costar -- would consume most of the time set aside for each spacewalk, five evas were deemed appropriate," said milt heflin, lead flight director for the mission. while the five spacewalks will be unprecedented, the use of two alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than previous missions requiring two, three or four evas. "we have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five evas," heflin said. "in planning for all space shuttle missions, it is necessary to formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible to accomplish the mission objectives." planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions that include support from the mission control center, called joint integrated simulations, lasting between 10 and 36 hours. in addition, many stand alone underwater training "runs" will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk. various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the mission. also, lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight will be valuable in assisting the sts-61 crew in its training techniques. endeavour's june flight and discovery's july mission both will include spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the hst mission. the evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at the johnson space center, houston, and the marshall space flight center, huntsville, ala. also, the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the experience levels among the astronaut corps, the flight controllers and designed to be serviced by a space shuttle crew, hubble was built with grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures. the telescope was launched aboard discovery in april 1990. at that time the nasa mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to hst in 1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have become necessary. - end - ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<answer instance="sci.space61133" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 didn't the little joe and big joe get built in under a year? 6 months for little joe, and 12 months for big joe? i thought i saw something on that for a old mercury film. 
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<instance id="sci.space61134">
<answer instance="sci.space61134" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining. i aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" i am talking the small miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).the people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point). lot's of these small miners are no longer miners. they are people living rent free on federal land, under the claim of being a miner. the facts are many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining, do not often even live their full time, and do fotentimes do a fair bit of environmental damage. these minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's when the west was uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier. times change people change. deal. you don't have a constitutional right to live off the same industry forever. anyone who claims the have a right to their job in particular, is spouting nonsense. this has been a long term federal welfare program, that has outlived it's usefulness. 
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 [ a nearly perfect parody -- needed more random caps] thanks for the chuckle. (i loved the bit about relevance to people starving in somalia!) to those who've taken this seriously, read the name! (aloud) thank you, thank you, i'll be here all week. enjoy the buffet! 
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<instance id="sci.space61136">
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 hmmm. i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record- players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems. i don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity, id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up. careful. making statements about how solid state is (generally) more reliable than analog will get you a nasty follow-up from tommy mac or pat. wait a minute; you *are* pat. pleased to see that you're not suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind. ;-) "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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 |> 3. on april 19, a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to |> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase. this activity is regularly reported in ron's interesting posts. could someone explain what the command loss timer is? the command loss timer is a timer that does just what its name says; it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving commands. upon expiration of the command loss timer, i believe the probe starts a 'search for earth' sequence (involving antenna pointing and attitude changes which consume fuel) to try to reestablish communications. no-ops are sent periodically through those periods when there are no real commands to be sent, just so the probe knows that we haven't forgotten about it. hope that's clear enough to be comprehensible. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61139">
<answer instance="sci.space61139" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 now, space marketing what about light pollution in observations? (i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night). i can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant effect on the overall sky brightness. venus is visible during the day, but nobody complains about that. besides, it's in leo, so it would only when i was at the texas star party a few years ago, the sky was so dark that venus did, indeed, cause light pollution until it set. even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem. imagine observing an object and halfway through your run, your object was occulted! i would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not fanatically serious observers. it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be. george krumins | george krumins | | gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | 
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 from the "jpl universe" april 23, 1993 cosmologist stephen hawking tours lab by karre marino some 15 years after his first visit to jpl, prof. stephen hawking, lucasian professor of mathematics at cambridge university and author of "a brief history of time," returned to the lab april 5. on a tour hosted by jpl chief scientist dr. moustafa chahine and merle mckenzie, manager of the international affairs office, hawking visited a variety of facilities, met with lab director dr. edward stone and various project scientists and managers, and felt "like royalty," he said. hawking, whose theories attempt to explain the origin of distant galaxies, black holes and alternate dimensions, wanted to re-visit jpl, he explained, "because while i'm most interested in those things in space that are farther away, i know that here is where the first steps are taken." hawking, who was accompanied by his family, two graduate students and his aides, began the tour in von karman auditorium, as david evans, deputy assistant lab director in the office of flight projects, and dr. arden albee, mars observer's project scientist, briefed him on current and past flight projects. voyager was pointed out to him, with special attention paid to a gold plate with a series of engraved images. should extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft, evans noted, they would find a variety of images that would explain something of earth. the professor asked if we were still communicating with the spacecraft, and evans affirmed that we are. using a model of mars observer, albee spent several minutes describing the project and the spacecraft's features. in answer to a question from hawking, chahine described a proposed drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only a concept." chahine, who had met hawking at caltech about five years before, described the professor as "a living miracle of the power of the brain. he's miraculous, and he has such a good sense of humor." the next stop, a demonstration on scientific data visualization in section 384's digital image animation lab, entertained and delighted the group, as everyone donned goggles to view 3-d images of mars. project scientist dr. eric de jong showed off the latest data -- a comet that had only recently been discovered in orbit close to jupiter. hawking was curious about its composition, and as he was shown how images are developed, he asked several questions on their interpretation. norman haynes, ald, office of telecommunications and data acquisition, briefed the professor on the space flight operations facility, and then hawking spoke with stone. the day ended with two technical discussions of particular interest to the professor. technical group leader dr. frank estabrook and senior research scientist hugo wahlquist described a three-spacecraft gravity wave experiment, currently under way. then planetary astronomer dr. richard terrile explained the philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection. the hawking party, which had been visiting southern california for five weeks, was headquartered at caltech, and planned to leave for england within a few weeks after the lab tour. upon departing, the cambridge-based scientist promised chahine that he would return to jpl for another visit. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61144">
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 on fri, 23 apr 93 09:06:09 bst, nicho@vnet.ibm.com (greg stewart-nicholls) said: gs> how about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is gs> able to accept donations to keep craft operational. i seem to remember nasa considering this for some of the apollo equipment left on the moon, but that they decided against it. or maybe not... ed mccreary ,__o edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<, "if it were not for laughter, there would be no tao." (*)/'(*) 
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 there is a nice little tool in lucid emacs. it's called "calendar". on request it shows for given longitude/latitude coordinates times for sunset and sunrise. the code is written in lisp. i don't know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to calculate these things. theo w. theo wawers lahmeyer international gmbh email : wawers@sunny.lif.de lyonerstr. 22 phone : +49 69 66 77 639 d-6000 frankfurt/main fax : +49 69 66 77 571 germany 
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<instance id="sci.space61150">
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 if the new kuiper belt object *is* called 'karla', the next one should be called 'smiley'. unless i'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 qb1, the kuiper belt object discovered last year, is known as smiley. jeff foust [49 days!] "you're from outer space." senior, planetary science, caltech "no, i'm from iowa. i only work in jafoust@cco.caltech.edu outer space." jeff@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov -- from star trek iv: the voyage home 
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<instance id="sci.space61153">
<answer instance="sci.space61153" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if the new kuiper belt object *is* called 'karla', the next one should be called 'smiley'. unless i'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 qb1, the kuiper belt object discovered last year, is known as smiley. as it happens the _second_ one is karla. the first one was smiley. all subject to the vagaries of the iau of course, but i think they might let this one slide... * steinn sigurdsson lick observatory * * steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" * * "the worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his * * revolution is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without * * radical change. telling people that paradise can be attained without * * revolution is treason of the vilest kind." -- h.s. 1993 * just had to try out my new .sig# on this forum ;-) 
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<instance id="sci.space61154">
<answer instance="sci.space61154" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> [pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about |> 2005 increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent |> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible. it's my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the growing distance of pluto and charon from the sun, due to it's elliptical orbit. it is not due to shadowing effects. where does the shadow come from? there's nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them. i wouldn't expect there to be anything block our view of them either. what am i missing? pluto can shadow charon, and vice-versa. george krumins | george krumins | | gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | | pufferfish observatory | 
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<instance id="sci.space61156">
<answer instance="sci.space61156" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april 23, 1993 10:00 am pdt flight sequence c8 is active, the spacecraft subsystems and instrument payload performing well in array normal spin and outer cruise configuration, with uplink and downlink via the high gain antenna; uplink at 125 bps, downlink at the 2 k engineering data rate. as a result of the spacecraft entering contingency mode on april 9, all payload instruments were automatically powered off by on-board fault protection software. gamma ray spectrometer random access memory was successfully reloaded on monday, april 19. to prepare for magnetometer calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in flight sequence c9 on tuesday and wednesday of next week, a reload of payload data system random access memory will take place this morning beginning at 10:30 am. over this weekend, the flight team will send real-time commands to perform differential one-way ranging to obtain additional data for analysis by the navigation team. radio science ultra stable oscillator testing will take place on monday . the flight sequence c9 uplink will occur on sunday, april 25, with activation at midnight, monday evening april 26. c9 has been modified to include magnetometer calibrations which could not be performed in c8 due to contingency mode entry on april 9. these magnetometer instrument calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the spacecraft-generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument. this information is critical to martian magnetic field measurements which occur during approach and mapping phases. mag cals will require the sequence to command the spacecraft out of array normal spin state and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the mag team data points in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations. today, the spacecraft is 22,971,250 km (14,273,673 mi.) from mars travelling at a velocity of 2.09 kilometers/second (4,677 mph) with respect to mars. one-way light time is approximately 10 minutes, 38 ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61162">
<answer instance="sci.space61162" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> [pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about |> 2005 increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent |> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible. where does the shadow come from? there's nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them. i wouldn't expect there to be anything block our view of them either. what am i missing? you're assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface into sunlight. not so. even on earth, each pole gets several weeks without sunlight in mid-winter. pluto and charon have much more extreme axial tilt and a much longer orbit. pluto's north pole, for example, gets over a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light. at the moment, we're in luck -- pluto and charon are just past their equinox, when the sun was just on the horizon at both poles (of each). if we get probes there soon, only the immediate vicinity of one pole (on each) will be in long-term shadow. this will get steadily worse the longer we wait. all work is one man's work. | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology - kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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 is there a few grasp pictures of space related items, namely space station designs, so you can see the "finished" revolt around.. if you don't know what a grasp prograsm is.. check out some adult entertainment files and see what i mean.. or maybe geta few gif files and create a "slide shows" (i think cshow can do this).. i liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a autocad program or to see it revolt around and look at it. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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 {description of "external tank" option for ssf redesign deleted} mark proposed this design at joe shea's committee in crystal city, and he reports that he was warmly received. however, the rumors i hear say that a design based on a wingless space shuttle orbiter seems more likely. yo ken, let's keep on-top of things! both the "external tank" and "wingless orbiter" options have been deleted from the ssf redesign options list. today's (4/23) edition of the new york times reports that o'connor told the panel that some redesign proposals have been dropped, such as using the "giant external fuel tanks used in launching space shuttles," and building a "station around an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed." currently, there are three options being considered, as presented to the advisory panel meeting yesterday (and as reported in today's times). option "a" - low cost modular approach this option is being studied by a team from msfc. {as an aside, there are ssf redesign teams at msfc, jsc, and larc supporting the srt (station redesign team) in crystal city. both lerc and reston folks are also on-site at these locations, helping the respective teams with their redesign activities.} key features of this option are: - uses "bus-1", a modular bus developed by lockheed that's qualified for sts and elv's. the bus provides propulsion, gn&c communications, & data management. lockheed developed this for the air force. - a "power station capability" is obtained in 3 shuttle flights. ssf solar arrays are used to provide 20 kw of power. the vehicle flies in an "arrow mode" to optimize the microgravity environment. shuttle/spacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power source for 30 day missions. - human tended capability (as opposed to the old ssf sexist term of man-tended capability) is achieved by the addition of the us common module. this is a modified version of the existing ssf lab module (docking ports are added for the international partners' labs, taking the place of the nodes on ssf). the shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions. the orbiter would provide crew habitability & eva capability. - international human tended. add the nasda & esa modules, and add another 20 kw of power - permanent human presence capability. add a 3rd power module, the u.s. habitation module, and an acrv (assured crew return vehicle). option "b" - space station freedom derived the option "b" team is based at larc, and is lead by mike griffin. this option looks alot like the existing ssf design, which we have all come to know and love :) this option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for use on all ssf assembly flights (so does option "a"). also, the number of flights is computed for a 51.6 inclination orbit, for both options "a" and "b". the build-up occurs in six phases: - initial research capability reached after 3 flights. power is transferred from the vehicle to the orbiter/spacelab, when it visits. - man-tended capability (griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist language) is achieved after 8 flights. the u.s. lab is deployed, and 1 solar power module provides 20 kw of power. - permanent human presence capability occurs after 10 flights, by keeping one orbiter on-orbit to use as an acrv (so sometimes there would be two orbiters on-orbit - the acrv, and the second one that comes up for logistics & re-supply). - a "two fault tolerance capability" is achieved after 14 flights, with the addition of a 2nd power module, another thermal control system radiator, and more propulsion modules. - after 20 flights, the internationals are on-board. more power, the habitation module, and an acrv are added to finish the assembly in 24 flights. most of the systems currently on ssf are used as-is in this option, with the exception of the data management system, which has major option c - single core launch station. this is the jsc lead option. basically, you take a 23 ft diameter cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 space shuttle main engines on the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors, and launch the can. some key features are: - complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout - 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels - body mounted radiators (which adds protection against micrometeroid & orbital debris) - 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end) - 7 berthing ports - a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet (twice the volume of skylab). - 7 floors, center passageway between floors - 10 kw of housekeeping power - graceful degradation with failures (8 power channels, 4 thermal loops, dual environmental control & life support system) - increased crew time for utilization - 1 micro-g thru out the core module 
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 newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space (excerpts from posting on this topic) now, space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth ... the real purpose of the project is to help the environment! the platform will carry ozone monitors i can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant effect on the overall sky brightness. venus is visible during the day, but nobody complains about that. besides, it's in leo, so it would only be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time as it goes zipping across the sky. (i've seen satellites at midnight - they're not only in twilight.) :o) from the book "prodigal genius: the life of nikola tesla" by john j. o'neill: "this remarkable conductivity of gases, including the air, at low pressures, led tesla to suggest, in a published statement in 1914, a system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat the whole earth, with its surrounding atmosphere, as if it were a single lamp.... the whole earth would be transformed into a giant lamp, with the night sky completely illuminated. ... making the night as bright as day." now my comments: i'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers. some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics. many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred - unsullied by the actions of humans. the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be. with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time - none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man. any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men. whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife. the space age changed all that. the effect of the first sputniks and echo, etc. on this view could only happen once. to see a light crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating the scales involved is also awesome - even if the few hundreds or thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe. but there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky. yes, i know aircraft are almost always in sight. i have to live in a very populated area (6 miles from an international airport currently) where light pollution on the ground is ghastly. the impact of humans is so extreme here - virtually no place exists that has not been shaped, sculpted, modified, trashed or whipped into shape by the hands of man. in some places the only life forms larger than bacteria are humans, cockroaches, and squirrels (or rats). i visited some friends up in the appalacian mountains one weekend, "getting away from it all" (paved roads, indoor plumbing, malls, ...) and it felt good for a while - then i quickly noticed the hollow was directly under the main flight path into dulles - 60-80 miles to the east. (their 'security light' didn't help matters much either.) but i've heard the artic wilderness gets lots of high air traffic. so i know the skies are rarely perfect. but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't fouled in some way. (i mean they've been trying this forever - like, concerning tesla's idea to banish night, - wow!) i don't watch commercial television, but i can imagine just how disgusting beer, truck, or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high. if ya' gotta make a buck on it (displaying products in heaven), at least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life. to be open about this though, i have here my listing of the passage of hst in the evening sky for this weekend - tonight friday at 8:25 p.m. edt it will reach an altitude of 20.1 degrees on the local meridian from baltimore vicinity. i'll be trying to see it if i can - it _is_ my mealticket after all. so i suppose i could be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky while complaining about billboards proposed by others. be that as it may, i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid, even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved. wm. hathaway baltimore md 
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<answer instance="sci.space61167" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 all in all, i'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the moon for a year is wise and/or useful. how about: a prize for the non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth. some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure... having a single might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person to win. and for those that didn't give up, i find something a little about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters. i'd like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition. lastly, about ten or fifteen years back i seem to recall that there was english space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases the cheap. i recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from flares, etc. unfortunately i don't remember the name of this magazine. does this ring a bell to anyone? craig keithley |"i don't remember, i don't recall, apple computer, inc. |i got no memory of anything at all" keithley@apple.com |peter gabriel, third album (1980) i love the idea of progressive developmental prizes, but the assumption been all along that only the u.s. gummint could fund the prizes. it wouldn't and couldn't do such a thing ... but ... an eccentric billionaire could offer such a prize or series of prizes. anyone know h. ross perot or bill gates personally? john g. 
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 ----- news saved at 23 apr 93 22:22:40 gmt ether implodes 2 earth core, is gravity!!! this paper both describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary, ether sucking structures, and why we observe "orbital" motion!! "light-years" between galaxies is a misnomer. the distance is closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion. (defining edge = 0 ether spin) to find out about all of this, i recommend studying history. well, i'm working on it, but getting a little impatient. so far, i've made it through egyptian, chinese, and greek cultures, and up through the rennaisance. but so far, these insights just don't seem to be gelling. perhaps it's in an appendix somewhere. in its own right, though, the history is kind of fun. lots of good yarns in there, with varied and interesting characters. and, more to come. 
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<answer instance="sci.space61172" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. i've transcribed some of my notes below. since my note taking ability is by no means infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine. permission is granted to copy this without restriction. note for newbies: the delta clipper project is geared towards producing a single staget to orbit, reusable launch vehicle. the dc-x vehicle is a 1/3 scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in ssto. it is currently undergoing tests. the dc-y vehicle would be a full scale experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit. it has not yet been funded. on april 6th, rocky nelson of macdonnell douglas gave a talk entitled "optimizing techniques for advanced space missions" here at the university of illinois. mr nelson's job involves using software to simulate trajectories and determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements. although he is not directly involved with the delta clipper project, he has spent time with them recently, using his software for their applications. he thus used the dc-y project for most of his examples. while i don't think the details of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers (i hope they aren't - i fell asleep during that part), i think that many of you will be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples. the first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit. the main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 gs. i assume that this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints, but i did not verify that. the delta clipper y version has 8 engines - 4 boosters and 4 sustainers. the boosters, which have a lower isp, are shut down in mid-flight. thus, one critical question is when to shut them down. mr nelson showed the following plot of acceleration vs time: 3 g /| / | / | / | as ascii graphs go, this is actually fairly / | / | good. the big difference is that the lines 2 g / |/ | made by the / should be curves which are / | concave up. the data is only approximate, as / | the graph wasn't up for very long. 1 g / | 0 g | ~100 sec ~400 sec as mentioned before, a critical constraint is that g levels must be kept below 3. initially, all eight engines are started. as the vehicle burns fuel the accelleration increases. as it gets close to 3g, the booster engines are throtled back. however, they quickly become inefficient at low power, so it soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether. this causes the dip in accelleration at about 100 seconds. eventually the remaining sustainer engines bring the g level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut out entirely. the engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit. the trajectory is aimed for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of air drag slow the vehicle slightly, thus lowering the final altitude to that desired. questions from the audience: (paraphrased) q: would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs, rather than all at once? a: very perceptive. worth considering. they have not yet done the simulation. shutting down all four was part of the problem as given. q: so what was the final payload for this trajectory? a: can't tell us. "read aviation leak." he also apparently had a good propulsion example, but was told not to use it. my question: does anyone know if this security is due to sdio protecting national security or md protecting their own interests? the second example was reentry simulation, from orbit to just before the pitch up maneuver. the biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating, and the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange. he showed graphs of heating using two different models, to show that both were very similar, and i think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate. the end result was that for a polar orbit landing at ksc, the dc-y would have about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start it's reentry profile about 60 degrees south latitude. i would have asked about the landing maneuvers, but he didn't know about that aspect of the flight profile. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61175">
<answer instance="sci.space61175" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i saw in the newspaper last night that dr. mae jemison, the first black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew on endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the "star trek: the next generation" episode that airs the week of may 31. it's hardly space science, i know, but it's interesting. doug loss interesting is rigth.. i wonder if they will make a mention of her being an astronaut in the credits.. i think it might help people connect the future space with the present.. and give them an idea that we must go into space.. a transporter operator!?!? that better be one important transport. usually it is a nameless ensign who does the job. for such a guest appearance i would have expected a more visible/meaningful role. | carlos g. niederstrasser | only two things are infinite, | | princeton planetary society | the universe and human | | | stupidity, and i'm not sure | | | about the former. - einstein | | carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------| | space@phoenix.princeton.edu | ad astra per ardua nostra | 
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<instance id="sci.space61176">
<answer instance="sci.space61176" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 galileo's hga is stuck. the hga was left closed, because galileo had a venus flyby. if the hga were pointed att he sun, near venus, it would cook the foci elements. question: why couldn't galileo's course manuevers have been designed such that the hga did not ever do a sun point.? the hga isn't all that reflective in the wavelengths that might "cook the focal elements", nor is its figure good on those scales--the problem is that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to venus-level sunlight, lest like icarus' wings it melt. (i think it was glues and such, as well as electronics, that they were worried about.) thus it had to remain furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun, so that the small sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded hga. (a larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus.) --mark looper "hot rodders--america's first recyclers!" 
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<instance id="sci.space61178">
<answer instance="sci.space61178" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 using a model of mars observer, albee spent several minutes describing the project and the spacecraft's features. in answer to a question from hawking, chahine described a proposed drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only a concept." chahine, who had met hawking at caltech about five too bad they didn't give him a tour of the cgro data? i think he'd be fascinated by the gamma ray bursters. the mind of hawking might even propose a mechanism. so what's a drag free satellite? coated with wd-40? carries an aluminum-gold set of grateful dead albums? inquiring minds want to know? and why would mo carry any features for being drag free? i thought aero-braking was a possible mo experimental activity? 
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<instance id="sci.space61180">
<answer instance="sci.space61180" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 while we are on the subject of the shuttle software. what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software was a major factor in the loss of 51-l. to wit, that during the wind shear event, the flight control software indicated a series of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic resonance leading to an overstress of the struts. 
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<instance id="sci.space61181">
<answer instance="sci.space61181" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 summary: dong .... dong .... do i hear the death-knell of relativity? "existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in [crb] dong .... dong .... dong .... do i hear the death-knell of string theory? i agree. you can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list, including the omni-present "black holes." will bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory alone? then what about my original criticism, when i said "curvature can only exist relative to something non-curved"? bruce replied: "'existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in physics. we cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about." at the moment i don't see a way to defend that statement and the existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously. -|tom|- "i hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties." "of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. to say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved, is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. i, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - nikola tesla et "tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. perhaps now his time comes." 
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<instance id="sci.space61182">
<answer instance="sci.space61182" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away? given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by? why would they have to be at galactic ranges? gamma ray bursts (grbs) are seen coming equally from all directions. however, given the number of bright ones, there are too few faint ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far as we can see--it is as if they are all contained within a finite sphere (or a sphere with fuzzy edges) with us at the center. (these measurements are statistical, and you can always hide a sufficiently small number of a different type of grb with a different origin in the data. i am assuming that there is only one population of grbs). the data indicates that we are less than 10% of the radius of the center of the distribution. the only things the earth is at the exact center of are the solar system (at the scale of the oort cloud of comets way beyond pluto) and the universe. cosmological theories, placing grbs throughout the universe, require supernova-type energies to be released over a timescale of milliseconds. oort cloud models tend to be silly, even by the standards of astrophysics. if grbs were galactic (i.e. distributed through the milky way galaxy) you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of the galaxy (for a 'disk' population), or towards the galactic center (for a spherical 'halo' population). we don't see this, so if they are galactic, they must be in a halo at least 250,000 light years in radius, and we would probably start to see grbs from the andromeda galaxy (assuming that it has a similar halo.) for comparison, the earth is 25,000 light-years from the center of the galaxy. my own pet theory is that it's flying saucers entering hyperspace :-) the aren't concentrated in the known spacelanes, and we don't see many coming from zeta reticuli and tau ceti. but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in. there are more than 130 grb different models in the refereed literature. right now, the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium on new models until new observational evidence comes in. david m. palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.space61183">
<answer instance="sci.space61183" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i just got out of the army. go signal corps or intelligence; photointelligence interpretation. if you go ada you might get to play with rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt protecting the foward troops from low flying objects. good luck * origin: *americomm*, 214/373-7314. dallas'info source. (1:124/6507) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61186">
<answer instance="sci.space61186" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 please get a real life. 
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<instance id="sci.space61187">
<answer instance="sci.space61187" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in answer to a question from hawking, chahine described a proposed drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only a concept." so what's a drag free satellite? coated with wd-40? i am puzzled by the term "concept." drag free may already have been flown. it was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would more accurately respond to motions from the earth's gravity field and ignore drag. it was proposed many years ago and involved a ball floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them. the ball itself would then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity anisotropies, whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously adjusting its position to compensate for drag. joseph cain cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu cain@fsu.bitnet scri::cain (904) 644-4014 fax (904) 644-4214 or -0098 
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<instance id="sci.space61188">
<answer instance="sci.space61188" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 did the russian spacecraft(s) on the ill-fated phobos mission a few years ago send back any images of the martian moon? if so, does anyone know if they're housed at an ftp site? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61189">
<answer instance="sci.space61189" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 another fish to check out is richard rast -- he works for lockheed missiles, but is on-site at nasa johnson. nick johnson at kaman sciences in colo. spgs and his friend, darren mcknight at kaman in alexandria, va. good luck. r. landis "behind every general is his wife.... and... behind every hillary is a bill . ." 
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<instance id="sci.space61190">
<answer instance="sci.space61190" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what in blazes is going on with wayne matson and gang down in alabama? i also heard an unconfirmed rumor that aerospace ambassadors have disappeared. can anyone else confirm?? ++rob landis stsci, baltimore, md 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61193">
<answer instance="sci.space61193" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software was a major factor in the loss of 51-l. to wit, that during the wind shear event, the flight control software indicated a series of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic resonance leading to an overstress of the struts. this sounds like another of ali abutaha's 57 different "real causes" of the challenger accident. as far as i know, there has never been the slightest shred of evidence for a "harmonic resonance" having occurred. the windshear-induced maneuvering probably *did* contribute to opening up the leak path in the srb joint again -- it seems to have sealed itself after the puffs of smoke during liftoff -- but the existing explanation of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61194">
<answer instance="sci.space61194" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [ a nearly perfect parody -- needed more random caps] thanks for the chuckle. (i loved the bit about relevance to people starving in somalia!) to those who've taken this seriously, read the name! (aloud) well, i thought it must have been a joke, but i don't get the joke in the name. read it aloud? david macaloon. david macalloon. david macaloon. i don't geddit. -dave empey (speaking for himself) thank you, thank you, i'll be here all week. enjoy the buffet! 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61197">
<answer instance="sci.space61197" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 somebody mentioned a re-boost of hst during this mission, meaning that weight is a very tight margin on this mission. how will said re-boost be done? grapple, hst, stow it in cargo bay, do oms burn to high altitude, unstow hst, repair gyros, costar install, fix solar arrays, then return to earth? my guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost? why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst, then let it make the re-boost. it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug. that way, now that they are going to need at least 5 spacewalks, then they can carry an edo pallet, and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array tilt motor fix. 
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<instance id="sci.space61199">
<answer instance="sci.space61199" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 sorry for asking a question that's not entirely based on the technical aspects of space, but i couldn't find the answer on the faqs ! i'm currently in the uk, which makes seeing a space shuttle launch a little difficult..... however, i have been selected to be an exchange student at louisiana state uni. from august, and i am absolutely determined to get to see a space shuttle launch sometime during the year at which i will be in america. i hear there's a bit of a long mailing list, so if someone can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from, then please e-mail me ! thanks very much for your patience.... (and if anyone else wants to know, tell me and i'll summarize for you - just to save all those poor people who have to pay for their links !) =============================== april is the cruellest month andrew wong \ mixing memory and desire -----x----- \ e-mail:c.h.a.wong@bradford.ac.uk \ t.s.eliot - the wasteland 1918 
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<instance id="sci.space61201">
<answer instance="sci.space61201" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ether implodes 2 earth core, is gravity!!! if not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, i'd swear that mcelwaine had changed his name and moved to cal poly. i also find the choice of newsgroups 'interesting'. perhaps someone should tell this guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'? it's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country. small wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we have the problems that we do. [in case you haven't gotten it yet, david, i don't think this was quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.] was that post for real? i thought it was a late april fool joke. some of it seemed a bit over the top even by mcelwaine/abian/etc standards :-) ... ross smith (wanganui, nz) ............ alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ... "and crawling on the planet's face some insects called the human race lost in time and lost in space" (rhps) 
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<instance id="sci.space61202">
<answer instance="sci.space61202" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 re: space billboards even easier to implement than writing messages on the moon, once upon a time a group of space activists i belonged to in seattle considered a "goodyear blimp in orbit". the idea was to use a large structure that could carry an array of lights like the goodyear blimp has. placed in a low earth orbit of high inclination, it could eventually be seen by almost everyone on earth. only our collective disapproval of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing it. it had quite feasible economics, which i will not post here because i don't want to encourage the idea (if you want to do such a thing, go figure it out for yourself). dani eder dani eder/meridian investment company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/ rt.1, box 188-2, athens al 35611/location: 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w +100m alt. 
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<instance id="sci.space61203">
<answer instance="sci.space61203" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 your description sounds like one of the gravity probe spacecraft 
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<instance id="sci.space61204">
<answer instance="sci.space61204" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 isn't my real name, either. i'm actually elvis. or maybe a lemur; i sometimes have difficulty telling which is which. definitely a lemur. elvis couldn't spell, just listen to any of his songs. 
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<instance id="sci.space61205">
<answer instance="sci.space61205" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year. experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles. compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below the arctic circle. if you want to have some fun. plug the basic formulas into lotus. use the spreadsheet auto re-calc, and graphing functions to produce bar graphs based on latitude, tilt and hours of day light avg. 
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<instance id="sci.space61206">
<answer instance="sci.space61206" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular/spherical. does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate as to actual shape, landmass configuration/long/lat lines etc.? thanks in advance. bill@xpresso.uucp (bill vance), bothell, wa rwing!xpresso!bill you listen when i xpresso, i listen when uuxpresso.......:-) 
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<instance id="sci.space61207">
<answer instance="sci.space61207" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 commercial space news/space technology investor number 22 this is number twenty-two in an irregular series on commercial space activities. the commentaries included are my thoughts on these developments. sigh... as usual, i've gotten behind in getting this column written. i can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in the space biz. this column is put together at lunch hour and after the house quiets down at night, so data can quickly build up if there's a lot of other stuff going on. i've complied a lot of information and happenings since the last column, so i'm going to have to work to keep this one down to a readable length. have fun! contents: 1- us commercial space sales flatten in 1993 2- delta wins two key launch contracts 3- commercial remote sensing venture gets doc "go-ahead" 4- investment firm calls gd's space biz "still a good investment" 5- ariane predicts dip in launch demand 6- ntsb investigates pegasus launch over aborted abort 7- another pegasus competitor is announced 8- georgia launch site dropped from planning 9- spain's capricornia launcher still proceeding 10- pacastro signs launch reservation with swedish space corp 11- china and taiwan joint satellite venture reported 12- south korea announces national move into space technologies 13- space technology indexes through march final notes 1- us commercial space sales flatten in 1993 the us department of commerce projects us commercial space sales will remain flat in 1993, with current data showing only a 2 percent growth over 1992. as published in "us industrial outlook 1993" (which was released in january), revenues from the 1993 us space business are currently projected to be about $4,890 m. in contrast to previous years when us commercial space sales had shown double digits growth rates, this year's projected results are driven by the us satellite manufacturing industry, where sales are projected to drop from 12 satellites worth $1,300 m in 1992 to 7 satellites worth $ 670 m in 1993. the us industrial outlook also projects u.s. commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year, and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to $450 m, future sales will be "adversely affected by the downward revision in department of defense launch plans." offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries, revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to increase to $1,900 m, primarily driven by increased revenues from broadcast and cable tv networks. similarly, remote sensing products and sales are projected to increase to $250 m in 1993 (up 15%). us commercial space revenues 1989 1990 1991 1992(r) 1993(e) commercial satellites 900 1,000 1,100 1,300 670 satellite services 750 800 1,200 1,500 1,900 fixed (700) (735)(1,115)(1,275) (1,520) mobile (50) ( 65)( 85)( 225) ( 380) satellite ground equip 790 860 1,350 1,400 1,560 mobile equipment (40) (85) (280) (352) ??? commercial launches 150 570 380 450 450 remote sensing data and services 125 155 190 215 250 private microgravity research lab -- -- -- -- 60 total annual revenues 2,715 3,385 4,220 4,815 4,890 (r) = revised data for 1992 (e) = estimated data for 1993 [commentary: this is the first look at how the us commercial space industry is expected to do in 1993. in general, not a bad report -- with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite manufacturing area. there, changes of only a few satellites worth $100 m or so apiece can substantially influence the annual projection. if we look forward over several years, this market sector should retain strong sales as us firms have been very successful in regaining international market share in the satellite furthermore, sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in the next revision of this data, expected to be released about mid- year. data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales (including such items as gps receivers and portable satellite terminals) appears to be missing from the january data set. doc usually publishes a listing of "space business indicators" in mid-year, and the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released then. i expect the revised revenues should easily top $5,000 m, if the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the numbers, and the year should show about a 10% overall market growth. looking beyond this year's data, future markets look quite promising. the doc projects satellite service revenues could top $3,000 m by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct broadcasting are implemented as planned, and that mobile satellite station sales are expected to continue to growth at 15-20 % per year through the mid 1990's. my numbers are somewhat more pessimistic for near-term market growth, but i agree the trend should be for substantial growth in us commercial space sales over at least the next 5-10 years. (my pessimism is due to more conservative assumptions on market capture and growth in leo communications and satellite direct broadcasting services. i don't believe all of the current players in the yet-to-be-born leo communications satellite market and in the yet-to-be-proven direct broadcasting market will be financial successes, nor that sales growth will be as explosive as currently projected.) it should also be noted this year's doc data is the first release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research facilities. the $60 m shown in the janurary data is primarily for the spacehab module, planned for launch in april on the space shuttle, but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first sales from the comet orbital launch and recovery experiment module.] 2- delta wins two key launch contracts mcdonnell douglas corporation, which builds and markets the delta launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts. motorola inc. announced in mid february that it had selected the delta to launch most of the satellites in the 66-satellite iridium leo communications constellation, and in mid april, mcdonnell douglas was awarded the usaf medium launch vehicle iii contract. the launch services contract with motorola for the iridium constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 iridium satellites. another 21 satellites have been contracted to be launched by khrunichev enterprise in russian on 3 proton vehicle launches. these 45 satellites planned for the delta will be launched 5 at a time, providing for at least 9 launches. additional satellites in the iridium constellation, such as a planned on-orbit spares, may also be launched on delta. although details of the launch services contract were reported to be negotiation, and not yet final. the usaf mlv contract also went to mdc, bidding a variant of their delta ii launcher. this contract is only initially worth $7.5 million, but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36 launches, encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002. these launches will deploy the next generation of the usaf's global positioning system block iir navigation satellites, plus other programs. first option for to meet the usaf launch options is expected to be exercised this year, after which the usaf is expected to request launches of up to 6 deltas per year for at least 6 years. under this contract the usaf can also request "launch on demand" services from mdc for the 1996-2002 time period, with a launch to occur within 40 days of the request. [commentary: if these two contracts are fulfilled, they should provide an excellent business base for mdc's delta launch program through the turn of the century. combined, these two contracts have a potential for about 45 launches, worth about $2,200 m to mdc, and sustaining a core business base of $300-400 m/year. other contracts for international and commercial payloads, as well as for nasa medium elv-class payloads, will add to this business base -- keeping mdc as a viable commerical launch company. however, it should be noted there are risk elements in these contracts. motorola's iridium leo communications constellation has not yet received a us federal communications commission license for operation in the u.s., nor has motorola lined up all the financing and financial partners for the iridium venture. without these approvals or financial backing there will be no iridium launches. but, hopefully, these uncertainties will be settled this year. similarly, the usaf mlv iii program has been the target of several congressional actions which have slowed the production of the gps block iir satellites and deleted the funding for the mlv iii program in favor of the usaf nls/"spacelifter" program. at this time, while it appears the mlv iii contract will be executed, future funding for the mlv iii and other usaf commercial launch contracts is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy reviews. some opinions expressed from within the administration and congress propose cancellation of all "elv upgrade" programs (including the mlv programs) in favor of the proposed "spacelifter" program. such opinions may have some weight in this year's budget deliberations, particularly as dod funds will be more difficult to find in the shrinking us defense budget.] 3- commercial remote sensing venture gets doc "go-ahead" the first commercial license to operate a remote sensing satellite was approved in early february by the us department of commerce's office of space commerce. a license was granted to worldview imaging corporation of oakland, california to build and operate a pair of leo imaging satellites to provide multi-spectral images of the earth. [commentary: there has been little data released on this venture by worldview and the doc, other than the announcement of the operating and construction license. this was reported to be at the request of worldview. most industry speculation identifies this new venture as a "star wars" spinoff, using sdi-type technology to provide digital earth sensing data, and heavily integrated into digital gis databases for remote sensing/gis users. most probable customers for this service include exploration geologists, agricultural planners, and urban planners. it is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the 1992 land remote sensing policy act. the act, as passed last november, provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices. prior to this act, remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to all users at the same prices, and private remote sensing ventures would have had to sell at the government-set landsat data prices. there are rumors of several other potential commercial remote sensing ventures working their way through the system at different stages of development. i think the large landsat and spot satellite systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing data market for the next decade or so. in contrast to these large, government-sponsored remote sensing systems, smaller market ventures such as worldview and others can exploit market niches and use innovative technology, and i believe, can find profitability on the margin. i predict there may be some very interesting ventures appearing in the next year or so.] 4- investment firm calls gd's space biz "still a good investment" wall street investment house morgan stanley thinks general dynamic's space systems division could still be a moneymaker, despite having failed in the last 3 atlas launches. in a recent analyst's report morgan stanley said "we are more than ever convinced that if the company can return the atlas to its historical 95%-plus success rate, this will become a highly profitable, cash- generating unit." based upon discussions with gd's corporate management, morgan stanley projects that if the atlas problems are cleared up the unit could see $70 m in earnings per year by 1995 and $100 m per year by 2000. this is based upon gd's projection of capturing about 10 atlas launches per year on the world market. [commentary: three failures in a row of their launch system has hurt general dynamic's space systems division. since gd has restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses, many market pundits have been speculating gd's space business might be next to be sold. the morgan stanley report indicates gd's space systems division has some potential as a moneymaker, despite current problems -- if they can get their act together. sales are projected to be about $560 m in 1993, which will probably generate a loss of about $25 m. if gd can capture their projected share of the space launch market, and if they have managed to clean up the reliability of their atlas launchers, then they could generate healthy profits from those sales. but until they demonstrate the atlas centaur program is back on track, this division will continue to show substantial losses. in response to the sell-off rumors, in my opinion, this operation is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability. to do such a takeover, the current set corporate and divisional management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm. in gd ssd's case, to get the division back on track, the management team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with the atlas centaur, as well as in selling atlas services. this would indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch operations could find such talent in-house, and be able to convince customers to buy their launch services. optimally, the firm would have substantial liquid rocket experience, and experience in marketing space technology internationally as well. candidates for this might be trw, rockwell, lockheed, and martin, and possibly mcdonnell douglas and boeing. but most of those firms have cash flow problems (mdc), have had a substantial business contraction (boeing and mdc), are involved with other launch firms (lockheed), or have taken on substantial debt (martin). and coming up with the $700-1500 m purchase price for the division is a big chunk of change for any company.] 5 - ariane predicts dip in launch demand arianespace, the operator of the ariane launch system, is projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990's. in early february, arianespace released their annual market survey, which detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the next decade. over short run, arianespace expects to retain their dominant position and sustain a majority share of the launch market. of 54 international and commercial launches planned through 1995, ariane holds contracts for 31, general dynamics' atlas vehicle holds 14 contracts, mcdonnell douglas' delta holds 7, and great wall's long march vehicle holds 2 launch contracts. three-quarters of future launch contracts for which ariane can compete are projected to come from communications satellites with the remaining 25% split between weather, earth observation, and scientific satellites. most of the future telecommunications demand growth is predicted to come from the asia/pacific region. arianespace expects the current market consolidation of individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will continue, with these groups investing in heavier satellites with larger communications payloads carrying more transponders. arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications satellites should increase by 20 % over today's average level, to about 3000 kg in geo. demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain strong over the next three years, but in the second half of the decade, arianespace predicts demand will decrease. arianespace bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder demand and supply, particularly as new data compression techniques appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing or near-term transponders. one of the significant possible changes in the market was identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles, including russian launch systems. but arianespace predicts that in the long term, investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade off between launch service quality and price, and that russian and other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities and service quality, and their market penetration will be minimal. [commentary: ariane releases their market surveys annually, and i reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of csn/sti. comparing the two surveys, there aren't outstanding differences in the numbers. the most notable change is the consideration of new data compression techniques, reducing the demand for new physical transponders on orbit. i note that in contrast to some predictions, demand for space- based communications transponders appears to be remain strong. while fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the established point-to-point telecommunications markets, growing demand for telecommunications services world wide and for point-to- multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space transponder demand. fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability service, but only from established point a to established point b. to establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable between the points, and while there are improved network solutions, installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost millions or billions of dollars. for broadcast services where there is not an existing ground network structure, satellites still offer the most cost effective solution. and if new services are required into a new region, it is cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite network. this allows rapid growth of new satellite services, and has kept demand high. the replacement market for fiberoptics is growing as well, since as demand grows between the points serviced, it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to handle the increase in traffic. since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still growing rapidly, satellite market projections remain rosy. but satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes. current generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of on-orbit service or more, in contrast to 10 years of service from last generation's satellites. this has cut back some of the launch demand, as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite launches over longer intervals. and as last note; arianespace didn't flag it this year, but it looks like the space transportation market will be rather over- supplied by existing launch systems in the near term. the annual commercial launch demand is for about 15-20 medium sized satellites per year. from the supply side, ariane is capable of launching up to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year, delta is capable of about 9-12 per year, atlas is capable of 6-12, long march 4-8, japan's h-vehicle 2-4, russia's proton capable of 8, and other systems such as zenit and soyuz another 10-20 medium launches per year. that's a lot of capability for a small market. we can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial launches.] 6- ntsb investigates pegasus launch over aborted abort the 9 feb pegasus launch by orbital sciences corporation has spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety rules. a valid abort order from a nasa range safety officer to halt the mission was overridden and the pegasus was launched in violation of range safety rules. in the last few minutes of the pegasus launch countdown, one of two abort command receivers aboard the pegasus failed. such a failure typically scrubs a launch,and a nasa range safety officer at wallops island, va issued a mission abort order about a minute before the scheduled pegasus launch. somehow this command was overridden by the osc launch team or the message was lost in the communications channels, and the pegasus was launched despite the valid abort call. fortunately, the pegasus functioned as expected, and the abort command receiver was not needed. but this incident did spark an investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreed-to launch constraint rules, and was not obeyed. leading the investigation is the national transportation safety board (ntsb) with support from nasa, osc, and the air force. this investigation marks the first time ntsb has taken the lead on an incident involving a space launch. according to the ntsb, their investigation will take about 6 months, and is primarily looking at lines of authority, communications links and safety procedures used in the launch. [commentary: this is the first time that the ntsb has led an investigation into a space launch. their leadership was requested by the department of commerce's office of commercial space transportation, who had licensed the commercial launch. at the time of writing this column, some of the initial investigations have been concluded, and some of the results are starting to leak out into the trade press. apparently, 3 or four different communications channels were in use during the test. after the abort destruct receiver stopped responding, the nasa test director and range controller in the mission control room at wallops island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch. according to the mission rules, this should have stopped the launch. somehow, the osc test conductor ordered the abort reversed, and the nasa communicator on the net relayed that order to the b-52 carrying the pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch. differing explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed -- with the best set being that clear lines of communications and clear definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team, and understanding of the mission rules were not established before the as we see more and more commercial launches, more of these procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved. this case is interesting because it is the first time the ntsb has been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem (as they do with commercial aircraft problems). i think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with procedures and communications, and will be cleared up with issuance of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how specific lines of authority should be delineated.] 7- another pegasus competitor is announced tsniimach enterprise in russia announced it is marketing a new small space launch system, based upon converted icbm components. two versions of the launcher are being marketed: the "aerokosmos" winged vehicle launched like the osc pegasus, and the "severkosmos", launched from a mobile ground transporter. the aerokosmos is projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to an 800 km circular orbit, and the severkosmos to be capable of 430 kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km. also proposed to be used with these launch systems is a leo data relay system called 'sineva'. tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex-military establishment, focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the buran shuttle system, they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad, outside of moscow. [commentary: there's very little released information on this new venture. my suspicion is it is another russian enterprise looking for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their in-house knowledge of ex-soviet launch systems. it adds to the list of numerous commercial space startups announced from the ex-soviet union. this one's a little different in that they are offering variants of ex-soviet icbms, but i can't identify any key customers being targeted or substantial financial backing.] 8- georgia launch site dropped from planning in late january, georgia tech research institute released the results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial rocket launching site in camden county, georgia at the old kingsland missile test launching site on the atlantic coast. the preliminary study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch site, stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected low investment returns, plus environmental and other geographic considerations. however, the report did say the site might be ideal for other aerospace uses, and recommended other potential uses. [commentary: this should put the nails in the coffin of the kingsland commercial launch site. while other sites are still proceeding with commercial launch site development plans, kingsland found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant, and if substantial infrastructure had to be put in, then the expected returns were too low to justify the cost of development. this might point out some key discriminators in judging the feasibility of a commercial launch site. these include: - is there an identified key customer to provide core usage sufficient to recover setup costs? - is there a market advantage of using the site? - can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site? - can financing be found at low enough cost to support the other commercial launch site ventures -- including those at woomera, poker flat, cape york, white sands, alabama off-shore platform, hawaii, and vandenberg have to also be judged against these criteria. in my opinion, some of these ventures are flying on hope and speculation, and not on sound financial grounds.] 9- spain's capricornia launcher still proceeding in one of his last official acts, former president bush authorized space technology transfer for several joint space ventures between us and other firms. one of these was a proposed use of us technology by spain to build a small booster. with that regulatory impediment removed, the 3-stage capricornia launch vehicle will start development later this year, planning for a first launch in the 1995/96 time period. the capricornia is described as a small 3-stage all solid booster designed to put 250-500 kg into leo. several launch sites are being examined for the system, including 2 on the iberian peninsula and 1 on the canary islands. originated by inta in spain, the project reports it has $ 30 m in development funding, and will use technology from argentina's condor launch vehicle as well as from the us. [commentary: several firms have identified a market opportunity in providing a small launcher for the european market. small payloads from european firms or organizations currently use either ariane piggyback launches or the us/italian scout launcher. however, ariane piggyback opportunities are limited, and the scout program is being phased out (accompanied by some disarray in the italian government and space industry regarding any follow-on system). this has left an apparent niche for a new european small launch system. surprisingly enough, esa has not supported development of such a system within the current space funding structure. studies have been performed by british aerospace, aerospatiale, deutsche aerospace, and italian organizations, but with the exception of the swedish/pacastro system (reported below), i have not been able to find any other european development work with even a rumor of funding for hardware. also of interest is the linking of the capricornia to the argentinian condor launcher. there have been some interesting rumors surfacing out of argentina over the past year about a space launcher/irbm program funded under the military junta which ruled the country in the 1970's and early 1980's. what is known is in feb 1992, the argentinian air force formally transferred control of the condor 2 missile program to the new civilian argentinian national space agency (comison nacional de atividades espaciales - cnae). the condor 2 program was described as originating in 1983, expanding upon the smaller condor 1 rocket program in collaboration with egypt and with support of german firms. the condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by iraq in the mid-1980's. fairly large solid rocket motors were built and tested, but argentinan development of a suitable guidance package lagged that of the propulsion system. it should be noted cnae is planning to launch its first scientific satellite in late 1994. the us$ 9 m, 181 kg, sac-b satellite will study the earth's upper atmosphere and includes cooperative experiments from italy and the us. no launch vehicle has yet been selected, but osc's pegasus and the russian burlak air launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this contract.] 10- pacastro signs launch reservation with swedish space corp pacastro, a small launch firm in herndon, virginia announced in late february it had received a $6 m launch reservation contract from the swedish space corp to launch a satellite on pacastro's pa-2 launch vehicle. this will be performed as part of the polar satellite service (pss), a joint norwegian space center/ swedish space corp. program to upgrade the andoya rocket range in norway and offering small satellite launches into the polar regions. according to pacastro, pss is also performing an $8 m upgrade of the andoya launch facilities, including a new integration facility and a fully- enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like the pacastro pa-2. pacastro has been chosen as "the main alternative rocket supplier" for the small satellite launch service to be offered by pss from andoya. the date of the launch of the swedish satellite was not specified. [commentary: pacastro has been trying to line up customers and funding for their launch vehicle for some time now. the pa-2 is a small, two stage rocket fueled by rp-1 and liquid oxygen. from pacastro's literature, the engines designed for the pa-series rockets are built of "off the shelf" components based upon the lunar module descent engines built by trw, and are capable of putting a 225 kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit. pacastro is trying to arrange construction financing for its first three pa-2 vehicles, with a first launch planned for 1995, and 2 orbital launches planned for 1996. my records show pacastro hired trw to provide marketing support and systems design, with primary engineering to be done by aeroastro, a small satellite builder closely associated with pacastro (headquartered in the same building). the swedish space corporation would supply engineering, launch operations, vehicle subsystems, and marketing support. sumitomo corp. of tokyo, is a first round investor and sits on the board of directors. pacastro has gotten a first round financial package of at least $550 k (some sources place this of high as $1 m), but has been searching for about a year for the additional $20-30 m needed to design, build and launch their first set of vehicles. the launch reservation from ssc can possibly be used to help bring some investors on board, but by my estimate, they will need much more than the single $6 m sale to put their venture into real hardware.] 11- china and taiwan joint satellite venture reported in early march, it was reported a joint satellite communications venture between a taiwanese and mainland chinese was in the works. as reported in the taipei press, china development corp. (cdc), headquartered in taiwam and with links to the ruling nationalist party, is planning to set up a joint venture in hong kong with china great wall industry corp. with the objective of launching a regional communications satellite. cdc would cover about 10% of the satellite system cost (us $10 m) in exchange for rights to 10% of the satellite's communications channels. [commentary: this announcement came close on the heels of the release of taiwanese plans for space development (released in mid january). in those plans, the national space program office of taiwan will launch 3 satellites, starting with rocsat-1, a 400 kg scientific spacecraft, planned for launch in 1997. two additional satellites are planned, both communications satellites. trw has been helping taiwan plan this program, budgeted at t$13.6 b (us $530 m) through 2006. i haven't been able to establish any relationship between this venture and those of the nspot, but there might be a connection. while taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures, the current taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two separate sastellite ventures. the reported name for the tiawanese/chinese system is "asiasat- 2", but i don't thinks this has any relationship with the existing hong kong-based "asiasat" program involving chinese, hong kong, and other asian investors, other than using it as an organizational model. there are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing venture -- it could provide excellent first-hand experience to taiwan for a very low cost, which then can be used in later satellite ventures. but there are internal political issues between taiwanese and chinese ventures, but putting any joint venture through a hong kong intermediary corporation might allow it to in any case, the east asian satellite market is lighting up with substantially growth projected in space services and revenues. this is just another indicator to add to the list.] 12- south korea announces national move into space technologies south korea's trade, industry and resources ministry recently announced plans to invest us$22 b in research and development and another us$17 b into manufacturing and research facilities for advanced aerospace technologies. space technologies have been specifically targeted as part of this program, beginning with manufacture and launch of an advanced multi-purpose satellite by 1997. the objective of this investment is to raise south korea's aerospace technology to the level of the world's top 10 countries by [commentary: south korea has been quietly working to develop its national aerospace industry, specifically including space activities. i'm noting this as a flag that potential new players are coming into the commercial space market. as part of their national effort, 2 national telecommunications satellites for korea telecom will be launched in april and oct 1995 on delta. designated koreasat 1 and 2, the platforms will provide television and telephone service throughout the korean peninsula, southwestern japan and portions of china bordering north korea. south korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on ariane in aug 1992, called uribyol-1 (our star) and costing about us $8.8 m. uribyol-2 is planned for piggyback launch in october of this year, again on ariane, and will be entirely "made in korea." uribyol-3, projected for a 1995 launch, will be an environment- monitoring micro-satellite. this satellite may be the precursor to a series of small earth observation satellites, the keos (korean earth observation system) project, which has been submitted for approval to the south korean government, would use two or three 300-kg spacecraft equipped with optical and microwave sensors. south korean press reports claim there is also a parallel military effort to establish the capabilities for building and launching small military satellites by 2001. supposedly a government panel had been established to oversee such an effort, funded at us $ 500 m between 1993 and 2001, in anticipation of an expected pullout of u.s. intelligence-gathering systems from the korean peninsula. in conjunction with all of these reported efforts, south korean is also pursuing production work either as off-sets to existing aerospace technology contracts (for example, mcdonnell douglas is offsetting production of some delta parts to south korean firms as part of the koreasat launch contracts), or for production of consumer space items (among other products, south korea exports satellite receiver television setups to japan, and samsung has announced teaming for production of osc's orbcomm user terminals.). this looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies. considering that east asia is currently the fastest growing sector for commercial space services (primarily for telecommunications), a south korean push into space technologies may change the composition of commercial space market there over the next decade.] 13- space technology indexes through march as announced in the last csn/sti, each issue will give the results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and investments. the table below summarizes results to the end of march. the space technology index did quite a bit better than the market as a whole, as represented by the s&p 500 index. since 90+% of the values included in the index are us firms, this represents a general increase in the market value of space-related firms. the increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992 -- which is a very promising sign, although future months may reverse this trend. the commercial space technology index has also done quite well, but the pure play portfolio -- consisting of stocks of firms which are pure plays in space technologies -- has also surpassed its results in all of 1993. we'll keep an eye on these .... index results through march beginning beginning 1 jan 93 to 1992 1993 31 mar 1993 s&p 500 416 436 (+4.7%) 452 (+3.7%) space tech index 267 304 (+13.6%) 373 (+22.7%) comm'l space tech index 167 194 (+16.3%) 222 (+14.2%) space tech pure plays 147 169 (+15.4%) 197 (+16.2%) final notes - what? this column's already full? and i still have bunches of commercial space developments to report on. as i said at the start of this, column there's been a lot of interesting happenings - but i'll have to put them into the next issue. looking ahead, i've got several articles in the works on new happenings with iridium and the leo communications satellite market, more news on international launchers appearing (and disappearing) on the market, new international commercial space ventures, and other interesting developments. and as always, i hope you folks find this stuff useful and interesting -- any and all comments are welcome. wales larrison space technology investor "felicitas multos habet amicos" p.o. box 2452 seal beach, ca 90740-1452 
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 two developments have brought these type of activities back to the forefront in 1993. first, in february, the russians deployed a 20-m reflector from a progress vehicle after it had departed from the mir space station. while this "banner" reflector was blank, npo energia was very active in reporting that future banner reflectors will be available to advertisers, who could use a space- based video of their logo or ad printed on the banner in a tv commercial, as filmed from the mir. the second development, has been that space marketing inc, the same company responsible for merchandising space on the conestoga booster and comet spacecraft, is now pushing the "environmental billboard". as laid out by smi chief engineer dr ron humble of the university of colorado space laboratory and preston carter of the lawrence livermore national laboratory, the "environmental billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to 804x1609 meters. advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area, deployed by the inflatable 'frame'. to help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the earth's delicate protective ozone layer," according to mike lawson, head of smi. furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the earth's atmosphere. according to imi, "as the biodegradable material burns, it will release ozone-building components that will literally replenish the ozone layer." the remaining spacecraft will monitor the atmosphere for another year before it, too, re-enters and burns up and "adds to the ozone supply." this would not be a cheap advertisement, costing at least several millions of dollars (exact costs were not available). but smi estimates that market exposure would be 3-5x that of the people who watched the superbowl, where a 30-second advertising 'unit' cost $600,000. since smi is located in atlanta, georgia, it is being promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996 summer olympics in atlanta. but back to brian's questions: and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip? how serious is this project? is this just in the "wild idea" stage or does it have real funding? see above. as for serious -- if they can get $15-20 m or so (my estimate of $5-10 for development costs and a flight unit, plus $10-15 m for a launch), then it's probably real. they are claiming to tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for optimum advertising impact so they probably can't piggy back upon someone else's planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated launch. that's a $10-15 m cost they need to raise, right there. and there will probably be some legal challenges to this as well. note there is one potential legal challenge to smi on the use of launch vehicle advertising already. while i don't think the legal challenges would win out (and yes, i am an amateur astronomer, and no, i don't really like the idea of this additional light pollution, but i know of no prohibition of it...), the legal challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive aspects of the advertising. i can imagine several ways to make the advertisers look like louts for doing this -- which would change positive market exposure to negative market exposure, and negate the space advertising advantage. (would you spend $15 m to look like an idiot?) (and light pollution might not be too bad -- if it's in a low enough orbit, and it relies upon reflected light only, it would only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before dawn. for maximum market exposure, you want to have it visible just after dusk --minimizing impact on astronomy, since that's the time of worse seeing due to day/night thermal turbulence. it might still be a problem, but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this...) as for having real funding -- none that i can identify. there were about 60 expressions of interest made on the conestoga advertising opportunity, but that included curious folks and was for only a $500,000 commitment. i haven't heard of any serious funding for this, but i'm sure they are shopping the venture around looking for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more. but i am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time. and if anybody wants to cross-post this to sci.astro, please be my guest. i don't have posting privileges to that area (or at least i don't think i do...). wales larrison space technology investor --- maximus 2.01wb 
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<answer instance="sci.space61209" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 brian yamauchi asks: [regarding orbital billboards...] and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip? how serious is this project? is this just in the "wild idea" stage or does it have real funding? well, i had been collecting data for next edition of the commercial space news/space technology investor... to summarize: space advertising first, advertising on space vehicles is not new -- it is very common practice to put the cooperating organization's logos on the space launch vehicle. for example, the latest gps launcher had the (very prominent) logos on its side of - mcdonnell douglas (the delta launcher) - rockwell international (who built the gps satellite) - usaf (who paid for the satellite and launch), and - the gps/navstar program office this has not been considered "paid advertising" but rather "public relations", since the restrictions have been such that only organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the side, and there was no money exchanged for this. [however, putting a 10' high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras is "advertising" as much as it is "public relations", in my opinion.] [and by the way, i note that the dc-x test vehicle has rather prominent mcdonnell-douglas and sdio logos on the side...] there have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials for use of space vehicles for advertising, or placing large advertising signs in orbit. on the shuttle, for example, i know of several serious studies in the early and mid 1980's which looked at putting logos on the external tank, or on the sides of the payload bay. these ventures would be different than "public relations", in that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms participating on that flight, and would involve payment of sums for the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization. (for example, painting the et to look like a pepsi can, or putting a disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras would scan past it.) adverts on launch vehicles the first paid advertising was done on a soviet launcher in about 1990, when several non-involved foreign organizations were allowed to pay to put their logos on a proton launch. (an italian shoe company was one of the first advertisers, i remember.) similarly, soviet cosmonauts on mir made a paid advertisement for the last olympic games, and have gleefully shown banners and other items from participating firms and organizations. mars candy bars, for example, got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the british visiting cosmonaut to mir. now us firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch vehicles. the upcoming conestoga launch (in june) putting the comet recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements on the side, for arnold schwarzenegger's upcoming movie "the last action hero". besides the usual logos of the participating organizations, columbia pictures has paid $500,000 to put ads on the main fuselage of the mission's conestoga rocket, its booster rockets, and on the comet payload, which will orbit the earth for one month. a concept for this advertising display was published in space news magazine a couple of months ago. (as a side note: robert lorsch, an advertising executive, is talking about suing nasa. he charges nasa with appropriating an idea he created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising sponsorships on nasa spacecraft as a way to get funding for the space program. lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on the upcoming comet, nasa violated an agreement that it "would not use his idea without him being the exclusive representative for nasa and receiving compensation." this is being disputed, since the launch is a "commercial launch" and nasa is receiving none of the advertising revenues, but the funding for the comet program is coming from nasa.) orbital "billboards" orbital "billboards" have been the staple of science fiction for some time. arthur c. clarke wrote about one example, and robert heinlein described another in "the man who sold the moon". several different potential projects have been developed, although none have been implemented, but the most real prior to 1993 being the "eiffel ii" project, which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in orbit to celebrate the french republic's bi-centennial. (cont) --- maximus 2.01wb 
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<instance id="sci.space61210">
<answer instance="sci.space61210" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular/spherical. does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate as to actual shape, landmass configuration/long/lat lines etc.? i don't think you're going to be able to see the differences from a sphere unless they are greatly exaggerated. even the equatorial bulge is only about 1 part in 300 -- you'd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe -- and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61212">
<answer instance="sci.space61212" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i like option c of the new space station design.. it needs some work, but it is simple and elegant.. its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex... basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for it.. might be an idea for a moon/mars base to.. where is captain eugenia(sp) when you need it (reference to russian heavy lifter, i think). michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61214">
<answer instance="sci.space61214" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |better idea for use of nasa shuttle astronauts and crew is have them be found |lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch.. |maybe age jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost.. of course that asumes the mission was able to launch :-) 
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<instance id="sci.space61215">
<answer instance="sci.space61215" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away? their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution, crudely speaking, indicates we're seeing an edge to the distribution. given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by? why would they have to be at galactic ranges? now, in the good old days before gro data, it was thought the gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy, it was expected that gro would confirm this by either showing they were a local population (within a few hundred light years) or that they were in the galactic halo. (mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed) (also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was probably in the lmc, suggesting theorists might be wrong back then...) as the sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo population should show anisotropy (a local disk population is ruled out completely at this stage) - to avoid the anisotropy you have to push the halo out, the energy then gets large, the mechanism of getting ns out that far becomes questionable, and we should start to see for example the andromeda's bursters. the data is consistent with either a oort cloud distribution (but only just) - but no one can think of a plausible source with the right spectrum. or, it can be a cosmological distances (hence isotropy) and the edge is "the edge of the universe" ;-) if at cosmological distances you need very high energy (to detect) and a very compact source (for spectrum), ergo a neutron star colliding with another neutron star or black hole. even then getting the spectrum is very hard, but conceivable. if we know anything about physics at that level, the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic strings, wrong spectrum for one thing. the situation is further complicated by recent claims that there are two classes of sources ;-) [in the colliding ns they'd actually probably fit relatively easily into the ns-ns and ns-bh collision scenarios respectively] my own pet theory is that it's flying saucers entering hyperspace :-) but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in. if you can think of one, remember to invite me to stockholm... * steinn sigurdsson lick observatory * * steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" * * the laws of gravity are very,very strict * * and you're just bending them for your own benefit - b.b. 1988* 
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<instance id="sci.space61216">
<answer instance="sci.space61216" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 from scott fri apr 23 16:31:21 1993 received: by igc.apc.org (4.1/revision: 1.77 ) id aa16121; fri, 23 apr 93 16:31:09 pdt message-id: <9304232331.aa16121@igc.apc.org> sender: scott to: cdplist status: r redwood city, ca (api) -- a tense stand-off entered its third week today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with charismatic cult leader steve jobs. negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound, but some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside have been terminated. others claim to be staying of their own free will, but jobs' persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm. in conversations with authorities, jobs has given conflicting information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the industry. at times, he has claimed to "have hardware which will blow anything else away", while more recently he claims they have stopped manufacturing their own. agents from the atf (apple-taligent forces) believe that the group is equipped with serious hardware, including 486-caliber pieces and possibly canon equipment. the siege has attracted a variety of spectators, from the curious to other cultists. some have offered to intercede in negotiations, including a young man who will identify himself only as "bill" and claims to be the "ms-iah". former members of the cult, some only recently deprogrammed, speak hesitantly of their former lives, including being forced to work 20-hour days, and subsisting on jolt and twinkies. there were frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of "interpersonal computing" which rejects traditional roles. late-night vigils on chesapeake drive are taking their toll on federal marshals. loud rock and roll, mostly talking heads, blares throughout the night. some fear that jobs will fulfill his own apocalyptic prophecies, a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers carry jobs' own speeches -- typically beginning with a chilling "i want to welcome you to the 'next world' ". roland j. schemers iii | networking systems systems programmer | g16 redwood hall (415) 723-6740 distributed computing group | stanford, ca 94305-4122 stanford university | schemers@slapshot.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61217">
<answer instance="sci.space61217" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the great 72" reflector built at birr castle, ireland in 1845 which remained the largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century. "the astronomy of birr castle" was written by patrick moore who now sits on the committee which is going to restore the telescope. (the remains are on public display all year round - the massive support walls, the 60 foot long tube, and other bits and pieces). this book is the definitivie history of how one man, the third earl of rosse, pulled off the most impressive technical achievement, perhaps ever, in the history of the telescope, and the discoveries made with the instrument. patrick moore is donating all proceeds from the book's sale to help restore the telescope. astronomy ireland is making the book available world wide by mail order. it's a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer. =====ordering information===== "the astronomy of birr castle" dr. patrick moore, xii, 90pp, 208mm x 145mm. price: u.s.: us$4.95 + us$2.95 post & packing (add $3.50 airmail) u.k. (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 1.50 post & packing europe (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 2.00 post and packing rest of world: as per u.s. but funds payable in us$ only. payment: make all payments to "astronomy ireland". credit card: mastercard/visa/eurocard/access accepted by email or snail mail: give card number, name & address, expiration date, and total amount. payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft. send to our permanent address: p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. you can also subscribe to "astronomy & space" at the same time. see below: tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: astronomy ireland, p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. 6 issues (one year sub.): uk 10.00 pounds, us$20 surface (add us$8 airmail). access/visa/mastercard accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). (world's largest astro. soc. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%) tel: 0891-88-1950 (uk/n.ireland) 1550-111-442 (eire). cost up to 48p per min 
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<instance id="sci.space61218">
<answer instance="sci.space61218" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm on a fact-finding mission, trying to find out if there exists a list of potentially world-bearing stars within 100 light years of the sun... is anyone currently working on this sort of thing? thanks... in principle, any star resembling the sun (mass, luminosity) might have planets located in a suitable orbit. there several within 100 ly of the sun. they are single stars, for double or multiple systems might be troublesome. there's a list located at ames.arc.nasa.gov somewhere in pub/space. i think it is called stars.dat. by the way, what kind of project, if i may know? *** infinity is at hand! rui sousa *** if yours is big enough, grab it! ruca@saber-si.pt all opinions expressed here are strictly my own 
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<instance id="sci.space61219">
<answer instance="sci.space61219" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be. it's called a democracy. the majority rules. sorry. if ytou don't like it, i suggest you modify the constitution to include a constitutional right to dark skies. the theory of government here is that the majority rules, except in the nature of fundamental civil rights. if you really are annoyed, get some legislation to create a dark sky zone, where in all light emissions are protected in the zone. kind of like the national radio quiet zone. did you know about that? near teh radio telescope observatory in west virginia, they have a 90?????? mile emcon zone. theoretically they can prevent you from running light ac motors, like air conditioners and vacuums. in practice, they use it mostly to control large radio users. 
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<instance id="sci.space61220">
<answer instance="sci.space61220" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the "environmental billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to 804x1609 meters. advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area, deployed by the inflatable 'frame'. to help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the earth's delicate protective ozone layer," according to mike lawson, head of smi. furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the earth's atmosphere. according to imi, "as the biodegradable material burns, it will release ozone-building components that will literally replenish the ozone layer." can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry? granted it probably a great advertising gimic, but it doesn't sound at all practical. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61226">
<answer instance="sci.space61226" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be. umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about here .. greg nicholls ... : vidi nicho@vnet.ibm.com or : vici nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : veni 
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<instance id="sci.space61228">
<answer instance="sci.space61228" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in answer to a question from hawking, chahine described a proposed drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only a concept." so what's a drag free satellite? coated with wd-40? triad, the first drag-free satellite, was designed and built by the johns hopkins applied physics laboratory and launched 2 sept 1972. the satellite was in three sections separated by two booms. the central section housed the discos disturbance compensation system, which consisted of a proof mass of special non-magnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity. the proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit, free from drag and radiation pressure. teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered around the proof mass, thereby flying the entire satellite drag free. triad was one of the apl-designed navy navigation satellites. the 2nd-generation operational navigation satellites flying today (nova) use a single-axis version of discos. triad was also the sixth apl satellite to be powered by an rtg (apl flew the first nuclear power supply in space, in 1961). further info on triad, discos, etc. can be found in "spacecraft design innovations in the apl space department," johns hopkins apl technical digest, vol. 13, no. 1 (1992). --eric hoffman 
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<instance id="sci.space61230">
<answer instance="sci.space61230" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 as for sf and advertising in space. there is a romantic episode in mead's "the big ball of wax" where the lovers are watching the constellation pepsi cola rising over the horizon and noting the some 'stars' had slipped cause the teamsters were on strike. this was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation of space mirrors published in spaceflight in 1986. as the reviews said: this seems technically feasible, and could be commercially viable but is it aesthetically desirable? these days the only aesthetics that count are the ones you can count! dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa, ontario, canada internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca 
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<instance id="sci.space61232">
<answer instance="sci.space61232" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 3. the onboard flight software project was rated "level 5" by a nasa team. this group generates 20-40 kslocs of verified code per year for nasa. will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "level 5" comes from? it sounds like the risks digest equivalent of large, extra large, jumbo... or maybe it's like "defcon 5..." i gather it means that shuttle software was developed with extreme care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in the computing world is level 1, or cheesy dime-store software. not surprising. but who is it that invents this standard, and how come everyone but me seems to be familiar with it? level 5 refers to the carnegie-mellon software engineering institute's capability maturity model. this model rates software development org's from1-5. with 1 being chaotic and 5 being optimizing. dod is beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts. i have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000. i have a 20-30 page presentation that summarizes it wethat i could fax to you if you're interested... bret wingert wingert@vnet.ibm.com (713)-282-7534 fax: (713)-282-8077 
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<instance id="sci.space61233">
<answer instance="sci.space61233" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the galaxy be expected? how transparent is the galactic core to gamma how much energy does a burster put out? i know energy depends on distance, which is unknown. an answer of the form _x_ ergs per megaparsec^2 is ok. john carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu) 
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<instance id="sci.space61234">
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 : i have 19 (2 mb worth!) uuencode'd gif images contain charts outlining : one of the many alternative space station designs being considered in : crystal city. [...] i just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp on server ics.uci.edu. you can retrieve them from: ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode09.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodea.gif ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeb.gif the last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing these will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days, so now's the time to grab them if you're interested. sorry it took me so long to get these out, but i was trying for the ames server, but it's out of space. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "the earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind will not stay in the cradle forever." -- konstantin tsiolkvosky 
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<instance id="sci.space61235">
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 somebody mentioned a re-boost of hst during this mission, meaning that weight is a very tight margin on this mission. i haven't heard any hint of a re-boost, or that any is needed. why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst, then let it make the re-boost. it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug. nasty, dirty combustion products! people have gone to monumental efforts to keep hst clean. we certainly aren't going to bolt any thrusters to it. 
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<instance id="sci.space61236">
<answer instance="sci.space61236" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i can tell you that when amsat launched some birds along a spot satellite (french), that during installation of some instruments on spot 2, there heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners' look on there faces. spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit robert w. mcgwier | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org center for communications research | interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf princeton, n.j. 08520 | asst scoutmaster troop 5700, hightstown 
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<instance id="sci.space61241">
<answer instance="sci.space61241" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am posting this for someone else. please respond to the address listed below. please also excuse the duplication as this message has been crossposted. thanks! request for ideas for applications of remote sensing databases via the internet nasa is planning to expand the domain of users of its earth and space science data. this effort will: o use the evolving infrastructure of the u.s. global change research program including the mission to planet earth (mtpe) and the earth observing system data and information system (eosdis) programs. o use the internet, particularly the high performance computing and communications program's nren (national research and education network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of science data and images and value added products. o provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in cooperation with other agencies (especially noaa, epa, doe, ded, doi/usgs, and usda). o support remote sensing image and data users and development the user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g., television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and aqua business. this program will be initiated in 1994. your assistance is requested to identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data. we would like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of the implementation plan. please note: this is not a request for proposals. we are seeking your ideas in these areas: (1) potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images; (2) potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels k-12) and other noncommercial areas; (3) types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more accessible; (4) additional points of contacts for ideas; and (5) addresses and names from whom to request proposals. for your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below. feel free to amend it as necessary. either e-mail or fax your responses to us by may 5, 1993. e-mail: on internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov" ascii - no binary attachments please fax: ernie lucier, c/o rsdwg, nasa hq, fax 202-358-3098 survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the ftp directory ~ftp/pub/rsdwg on orion.nasa.gov. please indicate the format. acceptable formats are: word for windows 2.x, macintosh word 4.x and 5.x, and ----------------------------response format-------------------------- request for ideas for applications of remote sensing databases via the internet (1) potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images (if possible, identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and standards). (2) uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels k-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and standards). (3) types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards, and user tools) (4) additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for further ideas on applications areas. please include: name, organization, address and telephone number. (5) organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed. please include: name, organization, address and telephone number. (6) we would benefit from knowing why users that know about nasa remote sensing data do not use the data. is it because they do not have ties to nasa investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats, poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...? (7) in case we have questions, please send us your name, address, phone number (and e-mail address if you have one). if you don't wish to send us this information, feel free to respond to the survey anonymously. thank you for your assistance. 
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<instance id="sci.space61243">
<answer instance="sci.space61243" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i know it's only wishful thinking, with our current president, but this is from last fall: "is there life on mars? maybe not now. but there will be." -- daniel s. goldin, nasa administrator, 24 august 1992 -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "the man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything." -- edward john phelps, american diplomat/lawyer (1825-1895) 
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<instance id="sci.space61244">
<answer instance="sci.space61244" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 larsonian astronomy and physics orthodox physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists claim to be looking for a "unified field theory" in which all of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single set of laws or equations. but they have been systematically ignoring or suppressing an excellent one for 30 years! the late physicist dewey b. larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, which he calls the "reciprocal system", is built on two fundamental postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of space and time: (1) "the physical universe is composed entirely of one component, motion, existing in three dimensions, in discrete units, and in two reciprocal forms, space and time." (2) "the physical universe conforms to the relations of ordinary commutative mathematics, its magnitudes are absolute, and its geometry is euclidean." from these two postulates, larson developed a complete theoretical universe, using various combinations of translational, vibrational, rotational, and vibrational- rotational motions, the concepts of in-ward and out-ward scalar motions, and speeds in relation to the speed of light (which larson called "unit velocity" and "the natural datum"). at each step in the development, larson was able to match objects in his theoretical universe with objects in the real physical universe, (photons, sub-atomic particles [incomplete atoms], charges, atoms, molecules, globular star clusters, galaxies, binary star systems, solar systems, white dwarf stars, pulsars, quasars, etc.), even objects not yet discovered then (such as exploding galaxies, and gamma-ray bursts). and applying his theory to his new model of the atom, larson was able to precisely and accurately calculate inter- atomic distances in crystals and molecules, compressibility and thermal expansion of solids, and other properties of all of this is described in good detail, with-out fancy complex mathematics, in his books. books of dewey b. larson the following is a complete list of the late physicist dewey b. larson's books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe. some of the early books are out of print now, but still available through inter-library loan. "the structure of the physical universe" (1959) "the case against the nuclear atom" (1963) "beyond newton" (1964) "new light on space and time" (1965) "quasars and pulsars" (1971) "nothing but motion" (1979) [a $9.50 substitute for the $8.3 billion "super collider".] [the last four chapters explain chemical bonding.] "the neglected facts of science" (1982) "the universe of motion" (1984) [final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries.] "basic properties of matter" (1988) all but the last of these books were published by north pacific publishers, p.o. box 13255, portland, or 97213, and should be available via inter-library loan if your local university or public library doesn't have each of them. several of them, including the last one, are available from: the international society of unified science (isus), 1680 e. atkin ave., salt lake city, utah 84106. this is the organization that was started to promote larson's theory. they have other related publications, including the quarterly journal "reciprocity". physicist dewey b. larson's background physicist dewey b. larson was a retired engineer (chemical or electrical). he was about 91 years old when he died in may 1989. he had a bachelor of science degree in engineering science from oregon state university. he developed his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe while trying to develop a way to compute chemical properties based only on the elements used. larson's lack of a fancy "ph.d." degree might be one reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him, but it is not a valid reason. sometimes it takes a relative outsider to clearly see the forest through the trees. at the same time, it is clear from his books that he also knew orthodox physics and astronomy as well as any physicist or astronomer, well enough to point out all their contradictions, ad hoc assumptions, principles of impotence, in-consistencies, etc.. larson did not have the funds, etc. to experimentally test his theory. and it was not necessary for him to do so. he simply compared the various parts of his theory with other researchers' experimental and observational data. and in many cases, his explanation fit better. a self-consistent theory is much more than the orthodox physicists and astronomers have! they claim to be looking for a "unified field theory" that works, but have been ignoring one for over 30 years now! "modern physics" does not explain the physical universe so well. some parts of some of larson's books are full of quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who agree. and remember that "epicycles", "crystal spheres", "geocentricity", "flat earth theory", etc., also once seemed to explain it well, but were later proved conceptually wrong. prof. frank h. meyer, professor emeritus of uw-superior, was/is a strong proponent of larson's theory, and was (or still is) president of larson's organization, "the international society of unified science", and editor of their quarterly journal "reciprocity". he moved to minneapolis after retiring. "super collider" boondoggle! i am against contruction of the "superconducting super collider", in texas or anywhere else. it would be a gross waste of money, and contribute almost nothing of "scientific" most physicists don't realize it, but, according to the comprehensive general unified theory of the late physicist dewey b. larson, as described in his books, the strange goofy particles ("mesons", "hyperons", alleged "quarks", etc.) which they are finding in existing colliders (fermi lab, cern, etc.) are really just atoms of anti-matter, which are created by the high-energy colliding beams, and which quickly disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible with their environment. a larger and more expensive collider will only create a few more elements of anti-matter that the physicists have not seen there before, and the physicists will be even more confused than they are now! are a few more types of anti-matter atoms worth the $8.3 billion cost?!! don't we have much more important uses for this wasted money?! another thing to consider is that the primary proposed location in texas has a serious and growing problem with some kind of "fire ants" eating the insulation off underground cables. how much poisoning of the ground and ground water with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of the "supercollider"?! naming the "super collider" after ronald reagon, as proposed, is totally absurd! if it is built, it should be named after a leading particle physicist. larsonian anti-matter in larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, anti-matter is not a simple case of opposite charges of the same types of particles. it has more to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the photons of which they are made, in relation to the vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light, which larson calls "unit velocity" and the "natural datum". in larson's theory, a positron is actually a particle of matter, not anti-matter. when a positron and electron meet, the rotational vibrations (charges) and rotations of their respective photons (of which they are made) neutralize each in larson's theory, the anti-matter half of the physical universe has three dimensions of time, and only one dimension of space, and exists in a reciprocal relationship to our material half. larsonian relativity the perihelion point in the orbit of the planet mercury has been observed and precisely measured to advance at the rate of 574 seconds of arc per century. 531 seconds of this advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational perturbations from the other planets (venus, earth, jupiter, etc.). the remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to help "prove" einstein's "general theory of relativity". but the late physicist dewey b. larson achieved results closer to the 43 seconds than "general relativity" can, by instead using "special relativity". in one or more of his books, he applied the lorentz transformation on the high orbital speed of mercury. larson totally rejected "general relativity" as another mathematical fantasy. he also rejected most of "special relativity", including the parts about "mass increases" near the speed of light, and the use of the lorentz transform on doppler shifts, (those quasars with red-shifts greater than 1.000 really are moving faster than the speed of light, although most of that motion is away from us in time.). in larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, there are three dimensions of time instead of only one. but two of those dimensions can not be measured from our material half of the physical universe. the one dimension that we can measure is the clock time. at low relative speeds, the values of the other two dimensions are negligible; but at high speeds, they become significant, and the lorentz transformation must be used as a fudge factor. [larson often used the term "coordinate time" when writing about this.] in regard to "mass increases", it has been proven in atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near the speed of light. but the formula for acceleration is acceleration = force / mass, (a = f/m). orthodox physicists are ignoring the third factor: force. in larson's theory, mass stays constant and force drops toward zero. force is actually a motion, or combinations of motions, or relations between motions, including inward and outward scalar motions. the expansion of the universe, for example, is an outward scalar motion inherent in the universe and not a result of the so-called "big bang" (which is yet another mathematical fantasy). the universe of motion i wish to recommend to everyone the book "the universe of motion", by dewey b. larson, 1984, north pacific publishers, (p.o. box 13255, portland, oregon 97213), 456 pages, indexed, hardcover. it contains the astrophysical portions of a general unified theory of the physical universe developed by that author, an unrecognized genius, more than thirty years ago. it contains final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries, including the formation of galaxies, binary and multiple star systems, and solar systems, the true origin of the "3-degree" background radiation, cosmic rays, and gamma- ray bursts, and the true nature of quasars, pulsars, white dwarfs, exploding galaxies, etc.. it contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are all looking for, if they are ready to seriously consider it with open minds! the following is an example of his theory's success: in his first book in 1959, "the structure of the physical universe", larson predicted the existence of exploding galaxies, several years before astronomers started finding them. they are a necessary consequence of larson's comprehensive theory. and when quasars were discovered, he had an immediate related explanation for them also. gamma-ray bursts astro-physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about the mysterious gamma-ray bursts. they were originally thought to originate from "neutron stars" in the disc of our galaxy. but the new gamma ray telescope now in earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions uniformly, and their source locations in space do not correspond to any known objects, (except for a few cases of directional coincidence). gamma-ray bursts are a necessary consequence of the general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson. according to page 386 of his book "the universe of motion", published in 1984, the gamma-ray bursts are coming from supernova explosions in the anti-matter half of the physical universe, which larson calls the "cosmic sector". because of the relationship between the anti-matter and material halves of the physical universe, and the way they are connected together, the gamma-ray bursts can pop into our material half anywhere in space, seemingly at random. (this is why the source locations of the bursts do not correspond with known objects, and come from all directions uniformly.) i wonder how close to us in space a source location would have to be for a gamma-ray burst to kill all or most life on earth! there would be no way to predict one, nor to stop it! perhaps some of the mass extinctions of the past, which are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids, were actually caused by nearby gamma-ray bursts! larsonian binary star formation about half of all the stars in the galaxy in the vicinity of the sun are binary or double. but orthodox astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory theory about how they form or why there are so many of them. but binary star systems are actually a likely consequence of the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson. i will try to summarize larsons explanation, which is detailed in chapter 7 of his book "the universe of motion" and in some of his other books. first of all, according to larson, stars do not generate energy by "fusion". a small fraction comes from slow gravitational collapse. the rest results from the complete annihilation of heavy elements (heavier than iron). each element has a destructive temperature limit. the heavier the element is, the lower is this limit. a star's internal temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays, gradually reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and lighter elements. when the internal temperature of the star reaches the destructive temperature limit of iron, there is a type i supernova explosion! this is because there is so much iron present; and that is related to the structure of iron atoms and the atom building process, which larson explains in some of his books [better than i can]. when the star explodes, the lighter material on the outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less than the speed of light. the heavier material in the center portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to the speed of light, because of the high temperature. the explosion pushes that material over the speed of light, and it expands outward in time, which is equivalent to inward in space, and it often actually disappears for a while. over long periods of time, both masses start to fall back gravitationally. the material that had been blown outward in space now starts to form a red giant star. the material that had been blown outward in time starts to form a white dwarf star. both stars then start moving back toward the "main sequence" from opposite directions on the h-r the chances of the two masses falling back into the exact same location in space, making a single lone star again, are near zero. they will instead form a binary system, orbiting each other. according to larson, a white dwarf star has an inverse density gradient (is densest at its surface), because the material at its center is most widely dispersed (blown outward) in time. this eliminates the need to resort to mathematical fantasies about "degenerate matter", "neutron stars", "black holes", etc.. larsonian solar system formation if the mass of the heavy material at the center of the exploding star is relatively small, then, instead of a single white dwarf star, there will be several "mini" white dwarf stars (revolving around the red giant star, but probably still too far away in three-dimensional time to be affected by its heat, etc.). these will become planets! in chapter 7 of the universe of motion, larson used all this information, and other principles of his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, to derive his own version of bode's law. "black hole" fantasy! i heard that physicist stephen w. hawking recently completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of two "black holes" merging together into a single "black hole", and concluded that the new "black hole" would have more mass than the sum of the two original "black holes". such a result should be recognized by everyone as a red flag, causing widespread doubt about the whole idea of "black holes", etc.! after reading physicist dewey b. larson's books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, especially his book "the universe of motion", it is clear to me that "black holes" are nothing more than mathematical fantasies! the strange object at cygnus x-1 is just an unusually massive white dwarf star, not the "black hole" that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want to "prove" their theory. by the way, i do not understand why so much publicity is being given to physicist stephen hawking. the physicists and astronomers seem to be acting as if hawking's severe physical problem somehow makes him "wiser". it does not! i wish the same attention had been given to physicist dewey b. larson while he was still alive. widespread publicity and attention should now be given to larson's theory, books, and organization (the international society of unified science). electro-magnetic propulsion i heard of that concept many years ago, in connection with ufo's and unorthodox inventors, but i never was able to find out how or why they work, or how they are constructed. i found a possible clue about why they might work on pages 112-113 of the book "basic properties of matter", by the late physicist dewey b. larson, which describes part of larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe. i quote one paragraph: "as indicated in the preceding chapter, the development of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally different concept of the nature of electrical resistance. the electrons, we find, are derived from the environment. it was brought out in volume i [larson's book "nothing but motion"] that there are physical processes in operation which produce electrons in substantial quantities, and that, although the motions that constitute these electrons are, in many cases, absorbed by atomic structures, the opportunities for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are limited. it follows that there is always a large excess of free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the universe, most of which are uncharged. in this uncharged state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension space, because they are inherently rotating units of space, and the relation of space to space is not motion. in open space, therefore, each uncharged electron remains permanently in the same location with respect to the natural reference system, in the manner of a photon. in the context of the stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron, like the photon, is carried outward at the speed of light by the progression of the natural reference system. all material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation. meanwhile there are other processes, to be discussed later, whereby electrons are returned to the environment. the electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level." note that in larson's theory, uncharged electrons are also massless, and are basically photons of light of a particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) spinning around one axis at a particular rate (below the "unit" rate). ("unit velocity" is the speed of light, and there are vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light, according to larson's theory.) [i might have the "above" and "below" labels mixed up.] larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass- less un-charged electrons flying around at the speed of light! if this is true, then the electro-magnetic propulsion fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these electrons, or other particles in space, perhaps giving them a charge (and mass) and shooting them toward the rear to achieve propulsion. (in larson's theory, an electrical charge is a one-dimensional rotational vibration of a particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) superimposed on the rotation of the particle.) the paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is generated in clouds. suppression of larsonian physics the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson has been available for more than 30 years, published in 1959 in his first book "the structure of the physical universe". it is totally un-scientific for hawking, wheeler, sagan, and the other sacred priests of the religion they call "science" (or "physics", or "astronomy", etc.), as well as the "scientific" literature and the "education" systems, to totally ignore larson's theory has they have. larson's theory has excellent explanations for many things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers, such as gamma-ray bursts and the nature of quasars. larson's theory deserves to be honestly and openly discussed in the physics, chemistry, and astronomy journals, in the u.s. and elsewhere. and at least the basic principles of larson's theory should be included in all related courses at uw-ec, uw-madison, cambridge, cornell university, and elsewhere, so that students are not kept in the dark about a worthy alternative to the dogma they are being fed. for more information, answers to your questions, etc., please consult my cited sources (especially larson's books). un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important partial summary is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine b.s., physics and astronomy, uw-ec 
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 regarding drag free satellites, joe cain gives a good description of the concept. it is however more than a concept. the navy's triad satellite succesfully used drag free control. drag free control is an integral part of the stanford gravity probe-b spacecraft, due to fly in 1999. it is also part of the european step satellite. jeff v. 
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 george william herbert sez: hmm. $1 billion, lesse... i can probably launch 100 tons to leo at $200 million, in five years, which gives about 20 tons to the lunar surface one-way. say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its fuel, a bigger mercury or something (might get that as low as two tons), leaving fifteen tons for a one-man habitat and a year's supplies? gee, with that sort of mass margins i can build the systems off the shelf for about another hundred million tops. that leaves about $700 million profit. i like this idea 8-) let's see if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8-) 8-) i like your optimism, george. i don't know doots about raising that kind of dough, but if you need people to split the work and the $700m, you just give me a ring :-) living alone for a year on the moon sounds horrid, but i'd even try that, if i got a bigger cut. :-) -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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 i assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the event and the 1/r^2 law. so, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits gamma ray propagation), could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer to us? the even distribution could be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy. just some idle babbling, jim batka | work email: batkaj@ccmail.dayton.saic.com | elvis is | home email: jbatka@desire.wright.edu | dead! 64 years is 33,661,440 minutes ... and a minute is a long time! - beatles: _ yellow submarine_ 
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 the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic volume 4, number 9 - april 1993 table of contents * asa membership and article submission information * the soviets and venus, part 3 - larry klaes asa membership information the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic (ejasa) is published monthly by the astronomical society of the atlantic, incorporated. the asa is a non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of amateur and professional astronomy and space exploration, as well as the social and educational needs of its members. asa membership application is open to all with an interest in astronomy and space exploration. members receive the journal of the asa (hardcopy sent through united states mail - not a duplicate of this electronic journal) and the astronomical league's reflector magazine. members may also purchase discount subscriptions to astronomy and sky & telescope magazines. for information on membership, you may contact the society at any of the following addresses: astronomical society of the atlantic (asa) c/o center for high angular resolution astronomy (chara) georgia state university (gsu) atlanta, georgia 30303 u.s.a. asa@chara.gsu.edu asa bbs: (404) 321-5904, 300/1200/2400 baud or telephone the society recording at (404) 264-0451 to leave your address and/or receive the latest society news. asa officers and council - president - eric greene vice president - jeff elledge secretary - ingrid siegert-tanghe treasurer - mike burkhead directors - becky long, tano scigliano, bob vickers council - bill bagnuolo, michele bagnuolo, don barry, bill black, mike burkhead, jeff elledge, frank guyton, larry klaes, ken poshedly, jim rouse, tano scigliano, john stauter, wess stuckey, harry taylor, gary thompson, cindy weaver, bob vickers article submissions article submissions to the ejasa on astronomy and space exploration are most welcome. please send your on-line articles in ascii format to larry klaes, ejasa editor, at the following net addresses or the above society addresses: klaes@verga.enet.dec.com or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes or - klaes%verga.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com or - klaes%verga.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net you may also use the above addresses for ejasa back issue requests, letters to the editor, and asa membership information. when sending your article submissions, please be certain to include either a network or regular mail address where you can be reached, a telephone number, and a brief biographical sketch. back issues of the ejasa are also available from the asa anonymous ftp site at chara.gsu.edu (131.96.5.29). directory: /pub/ejasa submissions are welcome for consideration. articles submitted, unless otherwise stated, become the property of the astronomical society of the atlantic, incorporated. though the articles will not be used for profit, they are subject to editing, abridgment, and other changes. copying or reprinting of the ejasa, in part or in whole, is encouraged, provided clear attribution is made to the astronomical society of the atlantic, the electronic journal, and the author(s). opinions expressed in the ejasa are those of the authors' and not necessarily those of the asa. this journal is copyright (c) 1993 by the astronomical society of the atlantic, incorporated. the soviets and venus part 3 copyright (c) 1993 by larry klaes the author gives permission to any group or individual wishing to distribute this article, so long as proper credit is given, the author is notified, and the article is reproduced in its to the north pole! on june 2 and 7, 1983, two of the soviet union's mighty proton rockets lifted off from the tyuratam space center in the kazakhstan republic. aboard those boosters were a new breed of venera probe for the planet venus. designated venera 15 and 16, the probes were meant not for landing yet more spherical craft on the venerean surface but to radar map the planet in detail from orbit. to accomplish this task, the basic venera design was modified in numerous areas. the central bus core was made one meter (39.37 inches) longer to carry the two tons of propellant required for braking into orbit, double the fuel carried by the venera 9 and 10 orbiters eight years earlier. extra solar panels were added on to give the vehicles more power for handling the large amounts of data which would be created by the radar imaging. the dish-shaped communications antennae were also made one meter larger to properly transmit this information to earth. atop the buses, where landers were usually placed, were installed the 1.4 by 6-meter (4.62 by 19.8-foot), 300-kilogram (660-pound) polyus v side-looking radar antennae. the radar system, possibly a terrain-imaging version of the nuclear-powered satellites used by the soviets for earth ocean surveillance, would be able to map venus' surface at a resolution of one to two kilometers (0.62 to 1.2 miles). the soviet probes' imaging parameters were a vast improvement over the united states pioneer venus orbiter, which could reveal objects no smaller than 75 kilometers (45 miles) in diameter. and while the veneras' resolution was comparable to that of similar observations made by the 300-meter (1,000-foot) arecibo radio telescope on the island of puerto rico, the orbiters would be examining the northern pole of venus. this region was unobtainable by either arecibo or pioneer venus and appeared to contain a number of potentially interesting geological features worthy of investigation. on october 10, 1983, after an interplanetary journey of 330 million kilometers (198 million miles) and two mid-course corrections, venera 15 fired its braking rockets over venus to place itself in a polar orbit 1,000 by 65,000 kilometers (600 by 39,000 miles) around the planet, completing one revolution every twenty-four hours. venera 16 followed suit four days later. the twin probes thus became venus' first polar-circling spacecraft. radar operations began on october 16 for venera 15 and october 20 for venera 16. for up to sixteen minutes every orbit over the north pole, the probes would make a radar sweep of the surface 150 kilometers (ninety miles) wide and nine thousand kilometers (5,400 miles) long. the craft would then head out to the highest part of their orbits over the south pole to recharge their batteries and transmit the data back to two large soviet antennae on earth. each strip of information took eight hours to process by computer. by the end of their main missions in july of 1984, the veneras had mapped 115 million square kilometers (46 million square miles), thirty percent of the entire planet. venera 15 and 16 revealed that venus has a surface geology more complex than shown by pioneer venus in the late 1970s. numerous hills, mountains, ridges, valleys, and plains spread across the landscape, many of them apparently formed by lava from erupting volcanoes in the last one billion years. in planetary terms this makes the venerean surface rather young. hundreds of craters were detected as well, the largest of which had to have been created by meteorites (planetoids would be a better term here) at least fourteen kilometers (8.4 miles) across, due to venus' very dense atmosphere. there were some disagreements between u.s. and soviet scientists on the origins of certain surface features. for example, the probes' owners declared that the 96-kilometer (57.6-mile) wide crater at the summit of 10,800-meter (35,640-foot) high maxwell montes, the tallest mountain on the planet, was the result of a meteorite impact. american scientists, on the other hand, felt the crater was proof that maxwell was a huge volcano sitting on the northern "continent" of ishtar terra. in any event, the u.s. decided to wait on making verdicts about venus until the arrival of their own radar probe, scheduled for later in the decade. originally named the venus orbiting imaging radar (voir), its initial design was scaled back and the craft was redesig- nated the venus radar mapper (vrm). eventually the machine would be called magellan, after the portuguese navigator ferdinand magellan (circa 1480-1521). this vehicle would map the entire planet in even finer detail than the veneras. for the time, however, the soviet probes maintained that distinction. radar imaging was not the only ability of the veneras. bolted next to the polyus v radar antenna were the omega altimeter and the fourier infrared spectrometer, the latter for measuring the world's temperatures. the majority of the areas covered registered about five hundred degrees celsius (932 degrees fahrenheit), but a few locations were two hundred degrees hotter, possibly indicating current volcanic activity. the probes also found that the clouds over the poles were five to eight kilometers (three to 4.8 miles) lower than at the equator. in contrast, the polar air above sixty kilometers (thirty-six miles) altitude was five to twenty degrees warmer than the equatorial atmosphere at similar heights. when the main mapping mission ended in july of 1984, there were plans for at least one of the veneras to radar image the surface at more southernly latitudes. unfortunately this idea did not come to pass, as the orbiters may not have possessed enough attitude-control gas to perform the operation. venera 15 and 16 ceased transmission in march of 1985, leaving the soviet institute of radiotechnology and electronics with six hundred kilometers (360 miles) of radar data tape to sort into an atlas of twenty-seven maps of the northern hemisphere of venus. venus by balloon for years the thick atmosphere of venus had been a tempting target to scientists who wished to explore the planet's mantle of air with balloon-borne instruments. professor jacques blamont of the french space agency centre national d'etudes spatiales (cnes) had proposed such an idea as far back as 1967, only to have a joint french-soviet balloon mission canceled in 1982. nevertheless, late in the year 1984, such dreams would eventually come true. when two proton rockets were sent skyward on december 15 and 21, the soviet union provided western observers with the first clear, full views of the booster which had been launching every soviet venus probe since 1975. this was but one of many firsts for the complex mission. the unmanned probes launched into space that december were named vega 1 and 2, a contraction of the words venera and gallei - gallei being the russian word for halley. not only did the spacecraft have more than one mission to perform, they also had more than one celestial objective to explore, namely the comet halley. this famous periodic traveler was making its latest return to the inner regions of the solar system since its last visit in 1910. since it was widely believed that comets are the icy remains from the formation of the solar system five billion years ago, scientists around the world gave high priority to exploring one of the few such bodies which actually come close to earth. most comets linger in the cold and dark outer fringes of the solar system. some, like halley, are perturbed by various forces and fall in towards the sun, where they circle for millennia spewing out ice and debris for millions of kilometers from the warmth of each solar the soviet union, along with the european space agency (esa) and japan's institute of space and astronautical science (isas), did not wish to miss out on this first opportunity in human history to make a close examination of halley. the esa would be using the cylindrical giotto probe to make a dangerously close photographic flyby of the comet, while japan's first deep space craft - sakigake (pioneer) and suisei (comet) - would view halley from a much safer distance. scientists in the united states also desired to study the comet from the vantage of a space probe, at one time envisioning a vessel powered by solar sails or ion engines. however, government budget cuts to nasa canceled the american efforts. the u.s. would have to make do primarily with earth-based observations and the sharing of data from other nations, though an instrument named the dust counter and mass analyzer (ducma), designed by chicago university professor john simpson, was added on the soviet mission in may of 1984. the soviets' answer to halley were the vegas. instead of building an entirely new craft for the mission, the soviets decided to modify their venera bus design to encounter the comet while performing an advanced venus mission along the way. as vega 1 and 2 reached venus, the buses would drop off one lander/balloon each and use the mass of the shrouded planet to swing them towards comet halley, much as the u.s. probe mariner 10 used venus to flyby mercury eleven years earlier. the soviet craft would then head on to halley, helping to pinpoint the location of the comet's erupting nucleus for the giotto probe to dive in only 605 kilometers (363 miles) away in march of 1986. as planned, the two vegas arrived at venus in june of 1985. vega 1 released its payload first on the ninth day of the month, the lander making a two-day descent towards the planet. the craft touched the upper atmosphere on the morning of june 11. sixty-one kilometers (36.6 miles) above the venerean surface a small container was released by the lander, which produced a parachute at 55 kilometers (33 miles) altitude. thus the first balloon probe ever to explore venus had successfully arrived. one kilometer after the opening of the parachute, helium gas was pumped into the teflon-coated plastic balloon, inflating it to a diameter of 3.54 meters (11.68 feet). dangling on a tether thirteen meters (42.9 feet) below was the instrument package, properly known as an aerostat. the top part of the 6.9-kilogram (15.18-pound) aerostat consisted of a cone which served as an antenna and tether attachment point to the balloon. beneath it was the transmitter, electronics, and instruments. connected at the bottom was a nephelometer for measuring cloud particles. the aerostat was painted with a special white finish to keep at bay the corroding mist of sulfuric acid which permeated the planet's atmosphere. the vega 1 balloon was dropped into the night side of venus just north of the equator. scientists were concerned that the gas bag would burst in the heat of daylight, so they placed it in the darkened hemisphere to give the craft as much time as possible to return data. this action necessitated that the landers come down in the dark as well, effectively removing the camera systems used on previous missions. the author wonders, though, if they could have used floodlights similar to the ones attached to venera 9 and 10 in 1975, when soviet scientists had thought the planet's surface was enshrouded in a perpetual twilight due to the permanently thick cloud cover. the first balloon transmitted for 46.5 hours right into the day hemisphere before its lithium batteries failed, covering 11,600 kilometers (6,960 miles). the threat of bursting in the day heat did not materialize. the vega 1 balloon was stationed at a 54-kilometer (32.4-mile) altitude after dropping ballast at fifty kilometers (thirty miles), for this was considered the most active of the three main cloud layers reported by pioneer venus in 1978. indeed the balloon was pushed across the planet at speeds up to 250 kilometers (150 miles) per hour. strong vertical winds bobbed the craft up and down two to three hundred meters (660 to 990 feet) through most of the journey. the layer's air temperature averaged forty degrees celsius (104 degrees fahrenheit) and pressure was a mere 0.5 earth atmosphere. the nephelometer could find no clear regions in the surrounding clouds. early in the first balloon's flight, the vega 1 lander was already headed towards the venerean surface. both landers were equipped with a soil drill and analyzer similar to the ones carried on venera 13 and 14 in 1982. however, vega 1 would become unable to report the composition of the ground at its landing site in rusalka planitia, the mermaid plain north of aphrodite terra. while still ten to fifteen minutes away from landing, a timer malfunction caused the drill to accidentally begin its programmed activity sixteen kilometers (9.6 miles) above the surface. there was neither any way to shut off the instrument before touchdown nor reactivate it after landing. this was unfortunate not only for the general loss of data but also for the fact that most of venus was covered with such smooth low-level lava plains and had never before been directly examined. nevertheless, the surface temperature and pressure was calculated at 468 degrees celsius (874.4 degrees fahrenheit) and 95 earth atmospheres respectively during the lander's 56 minutes of ground transmissions. a large amount of background infrared radiation was also recorded at the site. as had been done when the drills and cameras on venera 11 and 12 had failed in december of 1978, the soviets focused on the data returned during the lander's plunge through the atmosphere. the french-soviet malachite mass spectrometer detected sulfur, chlorine, and possibly phosphorus. it is the sulfur - possibly from active volcanoes - which gives the venerean clouds their yellowish color. the sigma 3 gas chromatograph found that every cubic meter of air between an altitude of 48 and 63 kilometers (28.8 and 37.8 miles) contained one milligram (0.015 grain) of sulfuric acid. the vega 1 data on the overall structure of the cloud decks appeared to be at odds with the information from pioneer venus. the case was made even stronger by the fact that vega 2's results nearly matched its twin. the vegas found only two main cloud layers instead of the three reported by the u.s. probes. the layers were three to five kilometers (1.8 to 3 miles) thick at altitudes of 50 and 58 kilometers (30 and 34.8 miles). the clouds persisted like a thin fog until clearing at an altitude of 35 kilometers (21 miles), much lower than the pv readings. one possibility for the discrepan- cies may have been radical structural changes in the venerean air over the last seven years. when the lander and balloon finally went silent, the last functioning part of the vega 1 mission, the flyby bus, sailed on for a 708 million-kilometer (424.8 million-mile) journey around the sun to become the first probe to meet comet halley. on march 6, 1986, the bus made a 8,890-kilometer (5,334-mile) pass at the dark and icy visitor before traveling on in interplanetary space. the soviets had accomplished their first mission to two celestial bodies with one space vessel. on june 13, vega 2 released its lander/balloon payload for a two-day fall towards venus. like its duplicate, the vega 2 balloon radioed information back to the twenty antennae tracking it on earth for 46.5 hours before battery failure on the morning side of the planet. during its 11,100-kilometer (6,660-mile) flight over venus, the second balloon entered in a rather still environment which became less so twenty hours into the mission. after 33 hours mission time the air became even more turbulent for a further eight hours. when the balloon passed over a five- kilometer (three-mile) mountain on the "continent" of aphrodite terra, a powerful downdraft pulled the craft 2.5 kilometers (1.5 miles) towards the surface. temperature sensors on the vega 2 balloon reported that the air layer it was moving through was consistently 6.5 degrees celsius (43.7 degrees fahrenheit) cooler than the area explored by the vega 1 balloon. this was corroborated by the vega 2 lander as it passed through the balloon's level. no positive indications of lightning were made by either balloon, and the second aerostat's nephelometer failed to function. the vega 2 lander touched down on the northern edge of aphrodite terra's western arm on the fifteenth of june, 1,500 kilometers (900 miles) southeast of vega 1. the lander's resting place was smoother than thought, indicating either a very ancient and worn surface or a relatively young one covered in fresh lava. the soil drill was in working order and reported a rock type known as anorthosite-troctolite, rare on earth but present in luna's highlands. this rock is rich in aluminum and silicon but lacking in iron and magnesium. a high degree of sulfur was also present in the soil. the air around vega 2 measured 463 degrees celsius (865.4 degrees fahrenheit) and 91 earth atmospheres, essentially a typical day (or night) on venus. far above the vega 2 lander, its carrier bus sped past venus at a distance of 24,500 kilometers (14,700 miles) and followed its twin to comet halley, making a closer flyby on march 9, 1986 at just 8,030 kilometers (4,818 miles). both probes helped to reveal that the comet is a very dark and irregular-shaped mass about fourteen kilometers (8.4 miles) across, rotating once every 53 hours, give or take three since both vega craft were still functioning after their halley encounters, soviet scientists considered an option to send the probes to other celestial objects. one prime target was the near- earth planetoid 2101 adonis, which vega 2 could pass at a distance of six million kilometers (3.6 million miles). sadly, the soviets had to back out on the opportunity to become the first nation to fly a spacecraft past a planetoid when it was discovered that there was not enough maneuvering fuel in the probe to reach adonis as planned. vega 1 and 2 were quietly shut down in early 1987. future plans diverted the impressive vega mission had given some scientists numerous ideas and hope for even more ambitious expeditions to the second world from the sun. one example was the vesta mission, planned for the early 1990s. this soviet-french collaboration called for the launch of multiple probes on a single proton rocket in either 1991 or 1992. the craft would first swing by venus and drop off several landers and balloon probes. the aerostats would be designed to survive in the planet's corrosive atmosphere for up to one month, a large improvement over the vega balloons' two days. the mission would then head out to investigate several planetoids and comets, including a possible landing on vesta (thus the mission name), the most reflective main belt planetoid as seen from earth. unfortunately for venus exploration, plans began to change in the soviet union. in 1986 the soviets decided to reroute the vesta mission to the red planet mars instead of venus, keeping the comet and planetoid aspects intact. by this time in the soviet space program interest was focusing on mars. already under construction was an entirely new probe design called phobos. two members of this class were planned to leave earth in 1988 and orbit mars the next year. phobos 1 and 2 would then place the first instruments on mars' largest moon, phobos. all this was a prelude to even more advanced mars expeditions, including balloon probes, rovers, soil sample return craft, and eventually human explorers in the early twenty-first century. the environment of venus was just too hostile for any serious consideration of human colonization in the near future. but things began to look bleak for soviet venus and mars exploration. both phobos probes failed to complete their missions, one losing contact on the way to the red planet in 1988 and the other going silent in mars orbit just one week before the planned moon landing in march of 1989. in 1989 a plan was devised for a venus orbiter to drop eight to ten penetrators around the planet in 1998. several years later the mission launch date was moved to the year 2005 and has now been put on indefinite hold. no other official soviet missions to venus have since been put forth, a sad commentary after twenty-five years of continuous robotic exploration of the planet. during the late 1980s a drastic political and economic change was taking over the soviet union. president mikhail gorbachev began to "open up" his nation to the benefits of increased cooperation with the rest of the nations, particularly those in the west. while the culture became less oppressive than in the past, the economy was taking a very rough ride as it also underwent the effects of a "free market". these effects hit everywhere, including the space program. missions at all levels were cut back. the soviets began making almost desperate attempts to cooperate with other space-faring nations either to keep their remaining programs alive or just to make money. in early 1992 it was reported that the soviets were offering for sale several fully-equipped veneras they had in storage for the price of 1.6 million dollars each, an incredibly low price for any planetary probe. no nation took them up on the bargain. meanwhile the united states was gearing up for new venus missions of their own. magellan and galileo the u.s. reactivated their long-dormant planetary exploration with the launch of the space shuttle atlantis on may 4, 1989. aboard the shuttle was the magellan spacecraft, a combination of spare parts from other u.s. probes designed to make the most detailed and complete radar-mapping of venus in history. when magellan reached the second world in august of 1990, it would be able to map almost the entire planet down to a resolution of 108 meters (360 feet), surpassing the abilities of venera 15 and 16. in the interim another american probe was launched from a space shuttle which would make a quick flyby of venus on its way to orbit the giant planet jupiter in 1995. on october 18, 1989, the shuttle atlantis released its second unmanned planetary probe into space, named galileo after the famous italian astronomer who discovered the probe's primary target's major moons in 1610. in the absence of a powerful enough booster to send galileo on a direct flight to the jovian planet, the probe was sent around venus and earth several times to build up enough speed to reach jupiter. as a result, venus became galileo's first planetary goal in february of 1990. the probe radioed back images of the planet's swirling clouds and further indications of lightning in that violent atmosphere. on the drawing boards with the incredible success of magellan in the last few years, new plans have been laid out for further journeys to venus. scien- tists in the u.s. have talked to space scientists in the former soviet union - now the commonwealth of independent states since january 1, 1992 - of a cooperative effort to launch new venera lander missions within in the next decade. japan, india, and the esa have also considered their own venus missions in the next few decades. in february of 1993 nasa came up with several new venus projects as part of their discovery program for launching inexpensive probes throughout the solar system. for venus two missions were selected for further study: a venus multiprobe mission involving the landing of fourteen small probes over one hemisphere to measure winds, air temperature, and pressure; and the venus composition probe, designed to study venus' atmosphere while descending through the thick air with the aid of a parachute, much as the soviets had done since 1967. final project decisions will be made in 1994. humans on venus will a human ever be able to stand on the surface of venus? at present the lead-melting temperatures and crushing air pressure would be threatening to any earth life not protected in something even tougher than a venera lander. plans have been looked into changing the environment of venus itself into something more like earth's. however, it should be noted that any such undertaking will require the removal of much of the thick carbon dioxide atmosphere, a major reduction in surface heat, and the ability to speed up the planet's rotation rate to something a bit faster than once every 243 earth days. such a project may take centuries if not millennia. in the meantime efforts should be made to better understand venus as its exists today. we still have yet to fully know how a world so seemingly similar to earth in many important ways became instead such a deadly place. will earth ever suffer this fate? perhaps venus holds the answers. such answers may best be found through international cooperation, including the nation which made the first attempts to lift the cloudy veils from venus. bibliography - barsukov, v. l., senior editor, venus geology, geochemistry, and geophysics: research results from the u.s.s.r., university of arizona press, tucson, 1992 beatty, j. kelly, and andrew chaikin, editors, the new solar system, cambridge university press and sky publishing corp., cambridge, massachusetts, 1990 burgess, eric, venus: an errant twin, columbia university press, new york, 1985 burrows, william e., exploring space: voyages in the solar system and beyond, random house, inc., new york, 1990 chaisson, eric, and steve mcmillan, astronomy today, prentice- hall, inc., englewood cliffs, new jersey, 1993 gatland, kenneth, the illustrated encyclopedia of space technology, salamander books, new york, 1989 greeley, ronald, planetary landscapes, allen and unwin, inc., winchester, massachusetts, 1987 hart, douglas, the encyclopedia of soviet spacecraft, exeter books, new york, 1987 hartmann, william k., moons and planets (third edition), wadsworth publishing company, belmont, california, 1993 harvey, brian, race into space: the soviet space programme, ellis howood limited, chichester, england, 1988 henbest, nigel, the planets: portraits of new worlds, viking penguin books ltd., harmondsworth, middlesex, england, 1992 johnson, nicholas l., soviet space programs 1980-1985, volume 66 science and technology series, american astronautical society, univelt, inc., san diego, california, 1987 johnson, nicholas l., the soviet year in space 1989/1990, teledyne brown engineering, colorado springs, colorado, 1990/1991 lang, kenneth r., and charles a. whitney, wanderers in space: exploration and discovery in the solar system, cambridge university press, new york, 1991 magellan: the unveiling of venus, jpl 400-345, march 1989 murray, bruce, michael c. malin, and ronald greeley, earthlike planets: surfaces of mercury, venus, earth, moon, mars, w. h. freeman and company, san francisco, california, 1981 murray, bruce, journey into space: the first three decades of space exploration, w. w. norton and company, new york, 1989 newcott, william, "venus revealed", national geographic magazine, volume 183, number 2, washington, d.c., february 1993 nicks, oran w., far travelers: the exploring machines, nasa sp-480, washington, d.c., 1985 oberg, james edward, new earths: restructuring earth and other planets, a meridian book, new american library, inc., new york, 1983 robertson, donald f., "venus - a prime soviet objective" (parts 1/2), spaceflight, volume 34, numbers 5/6, british interplanetary society (bis), london, england, may/june 1992 smith, arthur, planetary exploration: thirty years of unmanned space probes, patrick stephens, ltd., wellingborough, northamp- tonshire, england, 1988 voyage through the universe: the near planets, by the editors of time-life books, inc., alexandria, virginia, 1990 wilson, andrew, jane's solar system log, jane's publishing, inc., new york, 1987 about the author - larry klaes, ejasa editor, is the recipient of the asa's 1990 meritorious service award for his work as editor of the ejasa since its founding in august of 1989. larry also teaches a course on basic astronomy at the concord-carlisle adult and community education program in massachusetts. larry is the author of the following ejasa articles: "the one dream man: robert h. goddard, rocket pioneer" - august 1989 "stopping space and light pollution" - september 1989 "the rocky soviet road to mars" - october 1989 "astronomy and the family" - may 1991 "the soviets and venus, part 1" - february 1993 "the soviets and venus, part 2" - march 1993 the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic april 1993 - vol. 4, no. 9 copyright (c) 1993 - asa 
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<instance id="sci.space61256">
<answer instance="sci.space61256" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 option "a" - low cost modular approach - human tended capability (as opposed to the old ssf sexist term of man-tended capability) option "b" - space station freedom derived - man-tended capability (griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist language) option c - single core launch station. i'll vote for anything where they don't feel constrained to use stupid and ugly pc phrases to replace words like 'manned'. if they think they need to do that, they're more than likely engaging in 'politics and public relations as usual' rather than seriously wanting to actually get into space. so that eliminates option "a" from the running. what do they call a manned station in option "c"? [i'm actually about half serious about that. people should be more concerned with grammatical correctness and actually getting a working station than they are with 'political correctness' of terminology.] "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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 (in answer to amruth laxman are you sure 45g is the right number? as far as i know, pilots are blackout in dives that exceed 8g - 9g. 45g seems to be out of human tolerance. would anybody clarify this please. apart from the fact that you get g in the pull-out, not the dive, that figure is about right for sustained g, no protection. the duration of g, it's rate of onset, body position and support aids are all critical parts of the equation. i remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about 200g. stapp, the aviation doctor, either by accident or design, took a short-period 80g in a rocket-sled decelleration, eye-balls-out against a standard (1950's) harness. it had to be short, calculate the stopping time, even from 500 - 600mph at that g. a bang-seat can get up to about 60 g, and you'd better be sitting straight. find the book by martin-bakers human guinea pig to hear how bad it can get if the rate of onset is too high. a reclining position and a good g-suit can keep a pilot functioning at around 12g. a flotation tank should be a good bet, since you can treat the body as a fluid, and high-pressure situations are not new. anyone have any figures? ray fairfield fairfiel@zeus.usq.edu.au 
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 would someone please send me a list of the historic space flights? i am not looking for a list of all flights, just the ones in which something monumental happened. or better yet, is there an ftp site with the list of all shuttle flights? thanks (if you helped), vamwendt@upei.ca 
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<instance id="sci.space61259">
<answer instance="sci.space61259" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away? their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution, crudely speaking, indicates we're seeing an edge to the distribution. how can you tell the difference between an intensity distribution which is due to an "edge" in the spatial distribution and an intensity distribution which is due an a sharp dropoff of intrinsic luminosities below a certain threshold? could you describe (roughly) what the intensity distribution is like? 
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<instance id="sci.space61265">
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 james nicholl sez; if the new kuiper belt object *is* called 'karla', the next one should be called 'smiley'. jeff responds; unless i'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 qb1, the kuiper belt object discovered last year, is known as smiley. jeff foust [49 days!] "you're from outer space." senior, planetary science, caltech "no, i'm from iowa. i only work in jafoust@cco.caltech.edu outer space." jeff@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov -- from star trek iv: the voyage home i wouldn't worry too much about it, jeff. if you work for jpl, then your job is imaging things :-) (i know, it was a just a typo, but i couldn't resist. at least, i hope it was a typo, or my stupid joke is stupider than i intended :-) -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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 if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the galaxy be expected? how transparent is the galactic core to gamma how much energy does a burster put out? i know energy depends on distance, which is unknown. an answer of the form _x_ ergs per megaparsec^2 is ok. john carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu) i had to turn to one of my problem sets that i did in class for this little problem. i don't have a calculator, but i do have the problem set that we did not too long ago, so i'll use that, and hope it's what you wanted. this is a highly simplified problem, with a very simple burst. bursts are usually more complex than this example i will use here. our burst has a peak flux of 5.43e-6 ergs cm^-2 sec^-1 and a duration of 8.95 seconds. during the frst second of the burst, and the last 4 seconds, its flux is half of the peak flux. it's flux is the peak flux the rest of the time. assume that the background flux is 10e-7 erg cm^-2 sec^-1. then we had to find the integrated luminosity of the burst, for several different spheres: r=.25pc(oort cloud radius), r=22.5pc(at the edge of the galaxy), r=183.5pc or the edge of the galactic corona, and lastly at a r=8800mpc. we integrated the flux over all time to find the fluence, then used the old standby formula: luminosity=4(pi)(r^2)fpeak for a radius of .25 pc, we found an l around 10^32 erg/sec. pretty energetic for close by. for the coronal model, we found around 10^43 erg/sec. and lastly, for the cosmological model an l=10^53. that's what you'd call moderately energetic, i'd say. any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second? 
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<instance id="sci.space61270">
<answer instance="sci.space61270" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky... :-d seen that movie already. or one just like it. come to think of it, they might send someone on a quest to get rid of the dang thing... actually, the idea, like most good ideas, comes from jules verne, not ("like most good ideas,..." please, people!) _the gods must be crazy._ in one of his lesser known books (i can't remember which one right now), the protagonists are in a balloon gondola, travelling over africa on their way around the world in the balloon, _five weeks in a balloon_. not a good idea unless you have helium. verne's protagonists didn't. they just got increadibly lucky. and yes, i knew the title of the movie too, just didn't want to start talking about it. except to bring up the image of a team of s. african bushmen showing up at a launch site with spears and flint knives to stop the launch (anyone want to bet on their success in doing so? especially since they could probably stop a shuttle launch by sneezing too hard within a couple miles of the launch site). phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61271">
<answer instance="sci.space61271" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 catalog. these tests all show, that the bursts have an isotropic distribution(evenly spread out in a radial direction), and they show signs of homogeneity, i.e. they do not clump in any one direction. so, unless we are sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy, we are sampling the universe. not cool, if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things. now, i suppose you are saying, "well, we stil only may be sampling from inside the disk." well, not necessarily. remember, we have what is more or less an interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out to beyond pluto(pioneer 11), so we should be able, with all of our detectors de tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite. here's an analogy: you see a plane overhead. you measure the angle of the plane from the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system. one of your friends a mile away sees the same plane, and measures the angle from the zero point of his arbitrary system, which is the same as yours. the two angles are different, and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst, and maybe find a source. to my knowledge, no one has been able to do this. uh, no. these burst detectors are just that, burst detectors. they have no angular resolution. now a network of burst detectors could have angular resolution, but we do not have a decent set of different networks at the distances neccesary from each other to determine if they're happening in the oort cloud or not. we have one network, and trying to make two networks out of it degrades what angular resolution we have. phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61273">
<answer instance="sci.space61273" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 (in answer to amruth laxman are you sure 45g is the right number? as far as i know, pilots are blackout in dives that exceed 8g - 9g. 45g seems to be out of human tolerance. would anybody clarify this please. apart from the fact that you get g in the pull-out, not the dive, that figure is about right for sustained g, no protection. the duration of g, it's rate of onset, body position and support aids are all critical parts of the equation. i remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about 200g. stapp, the aviation doctor, either by accident or design, took a short-period 80g in a rocket-sled decelleration, eye-balls-out against a standard (1950's) harness. it had to be short, calculate the stopping time, even from 500 - 600mph at that g. a bang-seat can get up to about 60 g, and you'd better be sitting straight. find the book by martin-bakers human guinea pig to hear how bad it can get if the rate of onset is too high. a reclining position and a good g-suit can keep a pilot functioning at around 12g. a flotation tank should be a good bet, since you can treat the body as a fluid, and high-pressure situations are not new. anyone have any figures? ray fairfield fairfiel@zeus.usq.edu.au yes a flotation tank, combined with floride breathing water(ref: the abyss breathing solution i think).. also the right position of the astronaut and strapping you can probably get much more than 45gs in an accesloration.. more like near 100g (or somewhat less).. saw i book called the "time master" (i thjink that was the title) that had some ideas on how fast and all you could go.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<answer instance="sci.space61274" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i know that alot of how people think and act in a long distance space project would be much like old tiem explorers, sailors, hunters and such who spent alot of time alone, isolated, and alone or in minimal surroundings and sopcial contacts.. such as the old arctic and antarctic expeditions and such.. i vote for a later on sci.space.medicine or similar newsgroup fro the discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and such.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<answer instance="sci.space61276" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 wm hathaway comments; i'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers. some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics. many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred - unsullied by the actions of humans. the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be. with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time - none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man. any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men. whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife. the space age changed all that. [more on man's effect on the environment] but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't fouled in some way. .... i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid, even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved. i agree that the desire for beauty is valid, but i think your desire to impose your vision of beauty is not. you mention the age-old desire to somehow get up there, but ignore the beauty of the actual achievment of that vision. you mention the beauty of a very dark sky, not impeded by the effects of humans, but ignore the beauty of the as-dark-as-can-be sky that is only visible from space, a vision that we, or at least, our descendents, may one day be able to see, in part, because of efforts that others call ugly. one day, i hope, humans will be able to look out, not upon half the heavens, with only nature-creted lights, but upon all of the heavens, with no lights. if advertising in space can help us reach that goal, it is no less beautiful for the way we reach it, than the 'pristine' sky of yesteryear (or yester-century), which is totally unreachable. one of the original conceptions of beauty in wetsern sculpture was a human form, in the effort of striving to reach a goal. i don't think there's any reason to believe that modernity has changed that, just because it has changed the way we strive. btw, there are places that people haven't fouled. sometimes they make it better. -tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ as the radius of vision increases, 18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows. 
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 i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark, uncluttered night sky. sorry, you have a _wish_ for an uncluttered night sky, but it isn't a right. when you get down to it, you actually have no rights that the majority haven't agreed to give you (and them in the process). it's a common misconception that being born somehow endows you with rights to this that and the other. sadly this is not true. now if you want to talk about the responsibility that _should_ go with the power to clutter the night sky, then that's a different matter. greg nicholls ... : vidi nicho@vnet.ibm.com or : vici nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : veni 
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 a young french skeptic, who reads (skeptically) the ufo review ovni presence (o.p.), sent me the following excerpt from an august 92 issue of this review (r.g. = robert galley, french minister of defense in 1974, answering about the belgian ufo wave): "o.p. : can you conceive that the u.s. could allow themselves to send their most modern crafts over foreign territory, with the belgian hierarchy ignoring that ?" "r.g. : absolutely ! the best proof which i can give is that, some time ago, without informing the french authorities, the u.s. based in germany sent a plane to make photos of pierrelatte (*). we followed this plane, and, after its landing on the ramstein airport, colonel x got back the shots of pierrelatte. the u.s. had not informed us..." (*) there is an important military plant of enrichment of uranium at pierrelatte (drome). what kind of plane could it be ? surely not an sr-71, which our planes could not follow (and still can't)... j. pharabod 
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 about three weeks ago on the space list, someone was quoting a source on the relative traffic and rankings of this listserv. a figure of 88th in traffic(?) was given. unfortunately i did not clip the message and i would like to know the source of the rankings list. if anybody still has that discussion on their disk or knows the source (or is the poster himself!) i'd appreciate getting that reference. being on the road i have temporarily unsubscribed to the list to cut down mail box stuffing <g> so please reply via e-mail to lek@aip.org or 71160.2356@compuserve.com or i won't get your answer! larry krumenaker odyssey magazine 
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 if re-boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it, then why couldn't hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done is it because two shuttle flights would be required, adding to the alredy horrendous expense? dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max-planck-institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de -- w gibson the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 
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 i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans. i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet. the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions. eg temperature range of 280k to 315k (where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature..) atmospheric presure ? - i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass ? - again gravity at surface is important, how much can human bodies take day after day. also how does the mass effect atmosphere. i thinking of planets between .3 and 3 times mass of the earth. i suppose density should be important as well. climate etc does not concern me, nor does axial tilt etc etc. just the above three factors and how they relate to one another. with fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death -- from "too late saint george" 
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 on 26 apr 1993 15:37:32 gmt, jfc@athena.mit.edu (john f carr) said: jfc> if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the jfc> galaxy be expected? how transparent is the galactic core to gamma jfc> rays? and later... jim batka ( jbatka@desire.wright.edu ) said jb> so, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume jb> some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits gamma ray propagation), jb> could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic jb> events happening much closer to us? the even distribution could jb> be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays jb> being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy. well, maybe not zero, but very little. at the typical energies for gamma rays, the galaxy is effectively transparent. hans bloemen had a review article in ann. rev. astr. astrophys. a few years back in which he discusses this in more depth. | e-mail: lazio@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu t. joseph lazio | phone: (607) 255-6420 | icbm: 42 deg. 20' 08" n 76 deg. 28' 48" w cornell knows i exist?!? | stop rape 
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 what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away? given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by? why would they have to be at galactic ranges? . . . david gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic, 'edged' distribution, to whit, they are either part of the universe or part of the oort cloud. why couldn't they be earth centred, with the edge occuring at the edge of the gravisphere? i know there isn't any mechanism for them, but there isn't a mechanism for the others either. keith harwood. 
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 i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans. i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet. the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions. eg temperature range of 280k to 315k (where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature..) atmospheric presure ? - i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass ? - again gravity at surface is important, how much can human bodies take day after day. also how does the mass effect atmosphere. i thinking of planets between .3 and 3 times mass of the earth. i suppose density should be important as well. climate etc does not concern me, nor does axial tilt etc etc. just the above three factors and how they relate to one another. dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled, "habitable planets for man" (i think) in 1964. it should be available in most good libraries, or through inter-library loan. it answered the questions you ask (speculatively, of course), along with many more that need to be considered in habitability studies: length of day (for day/night temperature variation, and agricultural concerns), partial pressures of certain unexpected gasses (ever hear of xenon narcosis? neither did i), density of particulates in the atm, and their composition (ever hear of silicosis? not much fun), etc. climate isn't a global phenomenon and probably needn't concern you, but axial tilt ought to. it plays a large part in determining the severity of seasonal differences, and a lesser but still significant part in determining the speed of prevailing winds. doug loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu 
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 the following is what they feed to us..... most has been posted already, but there are a number of items not seen here yet..... redesign activities update -- following is the weekly status on redesign, based on information provided by nasa headquarters. the station redesign team (srt) provided a detailed status report to the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station on april 22. the day-long meeting was held in anser facilities in crystal city, va; topics covered by the srt included a preliminary mission and goals statement for the space station; science, technology and engineering research; the assessment process; and the design approach. discussions on management options and operations concepts also were held. the design teams then presented the three options under study: option a - modular buildup -- pete priest presented the a option. priest said the team is working to define a station that meets cost goals and has identified three distinct phases of evolution - power station, human tended and permanent presence. the team will define the minimum capability needed to achieve each phase, the total cost of each phase and the achievable capability for budget levels. the a option uses current or simplified freedom hardware where cost effective and is considering other existing systems such as the so-called "bus-1 spacecraft," the orbiter and spacelab. the power station capability could be achieved in 3 flights with freedom photo voltaic modules providing 20 kw of power. 30-day shuttle/spacelab missions docked to the power station are assumed for this phase. human tended capability would be provided by the addition of the u.s. common module module which adds subsystems and 9 payload racks and docking ports for esa and japanese laboratories. 60-day missions with the orbiter docked to the station are assumed for this phase. different operation/utilization modes are being studied for this phase. option b - freedom derived -- mike griffin presented the status of option b activities. griffin detailed the evolution of the freedom-derived option, from initial research capability, to human-tended capability, to permanent human presence capability, to two fault tolerance, and finally permanent human capability. griffin also outlined proposed systems changes to the baseline program, with minor changes to the communications and tracking system, crew health care system and eclss, and a major change to the data management system. initial research capability would be achieved with 2 flights to 28.5 degree inclination (3 flights to 51.6 degrees) and consist of an extended duration orbiter-spacelab combination docked to a truss segment with 2 photo voltaic arrays providing 18.75 kw of power. human-tended capability would be achieved in 6 flights and add truss segments and the u.s. lab. permanent human presence capability would be achieved in 8 flights with two orbiters providing habitation and assured crew return. two fault tolerance, achieved in 11 flights, would build out the other section of truss with another set of pv modules, thermal control and propulsion systems. the freedom derived configuration could achieve an international complete state with 16 flights. three more flights, to bring up the habitat module, a third pv array and two assured crew return vehicles (acrv) would complete the permanent human capability with international stage. griffin told the redesign advisory committee that eliminating hardware would not, by itself, meet budget guidelines for the freedom derived option. major reductions or deferrals must occur in other areas including program management, contractor non-hardware, early utilization and operations costs, he said. option c - singe launch core station -- chet vaughn presented option c, the single launch core station concept. a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit. shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation. the module, 23 feet in diameter and 92 feet long, would provide 26,000 cubic feet of pressured volume, separated into 7 "decks" connected by a centralized passageway. seven berthing ports would be located at various places on the circumference of the module to place the international modules, and other elements. this "can" would have two fixed photo voltaic arrays producing approximately 40 kw of power flying in a solar interial in his closing comments to the redesign advisory committee, bryan o'connor said a design freeze would be established for the 3 options on april 26 so that detailed costing of the options can begin. the next meeting with the redesign advisory committee will be may 3. russian consultants arrive in u.s. -- a delegation of 16 russian space experts arrived in the u.s. on april 21 and briefings to the srt by members of the russian team began on the 22nd. the group includes russian space agency general director y. m. koptev, and v. a. yatsenko, also of the rsa. others on the team include representatives from the ministry of defense, the design bureau salyut, the institute of biomedical problems, the ministry of foreign affairs, npo energia and tsnijmash. the russian team briefed the srt on environmental control and life support system, docking systems, the proton launch vehicle, mir operations and utilization, and the soyuz tm spacecraft. the russian consultants are available to the srt to assess the capabilities of the mir space station, and the possible use of mir and other russian capabilities and systems as part of the space station redesign. they will be available to the srt through may 5. management and operations review continues -- work continued in the srt subgroups. the management group under dr. walt brooks is working to develop a family of options that solve the current problems and build a foundation for the transition to development and operations. various management options have been developed including: lead center with the center director in the programmatic chain of host center with the program manager reporting directly to an associate skunk works/dedicated program office with a small dedicated co-located hand-picked program office. combine space station with shuttle, with the space station becoming an element of the current program. major tune up to current organization, with current contracts and geographical distribution maintained but streamlined. the operations group under dr. john cox is building on the work of the operations phase assessment team lead by gene kranz of nasa-jsc, which had already begun a comprehensive review of operations and had concluded in its preliminary results that significant cost reductions are possible. as part of its work, the operations group has identified teams of agency experts to develop detailed evaluations of each design in the areas of assembly and operations, utilization, maintenance and logistics and testing and ground operations. what's in the week ahead? -- the design support teams will provide a comprehensive status of their option to the station redesign team on monday and tuesday at which point the design will be "frozen" to begin the detailed cost assessment. also this week, the team will begin preparing for the next round of discussions with the redesign advisory committee, to be held may 3. dr. shea steps down -- dr. joe shea stepped down as director of the station redesign team on april 22 and bryan o'connor will take over the activities of the team. dr. shea submitted his resignation as assistant deputy administrator for space station analysis, but will continue to serve as a special advisory to nasa administrator goldin and be available to consult with the srt. mr goldin accepted the resignation so that a request from dr. shea to reduce his workload could be accommodated. key milestones -- the key dates for the srt as they are currently being carried on the schedule are: april 26 design freeze on options for costing april 27 design support team present selected options to srt may 3 status report to redesign advisory committee may 15 interim report by redesign advisory committee june 7 final report to redesign advisory committee (oct. 31-cancellation .....just my opinion...ac) 
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 could someone explain where these names come from? i'm sure there's a perfectly good reason to name a planetoid "smiley," but i'm equally sure that i don't know what that reason is. read john le carre's "tinker, tailor, soldier, spy", "the honorable schoolboy" or "smiley's people". 
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 ... so how about this? give the winning group (i can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year moratorium on taxes. you are talking about the bozos who can't even manage in november to keep promises about taxes made in october, and you expect them to make (and keep!) a 50-year promise like that? we want to give lawyers something to do in the 21st cen., don't we? your faith in the political system is much higher than mine. i wouldn't even begin to expect that in australia, and we don't have institutionalised corruption like you oh i bet you do. they are probably just better at it than our crooks. :-) gregory bond <gnb@bby.com.au> burdett buckeridge & young ltd melbourne australia knox's 386 is slick. fox in sox, on knox's box knox's box is very quick. plays lots of lsl. he's sick! (apologies to john "iron bar" mackin.) tom freebairn | we came. | we saw. | we went home. some early 20th cen. baseball player anybody know who or why? (definitly e-mail stuff.) 
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 newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space my apologies if this is a re-post - i submitted it on friday, but got a message that my post might not have gone out. considering the confusing spitting contest over 'rights', (there are too inalienable rights damn it! the majority can be just as destructive of liberty as a despot), i suspect that my post did not get out of my site. (i ain't saying that dark skies are included in these rights, although we can only preserve any rights by exercising them.) anyway, here are my thoughts on this: i'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers. some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics. many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred - unsullied by the actions of humans. the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be. with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time - none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man. any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men. whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife. the space age changed all that. the effect of the first sputniks and echo, etc. on this view could only happen once. to see a light crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating the scales involved is also awesome - even if the few hundreds or thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe. but there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky. yes, i know aircraft are almost always in sight. i have to live in a very populated area (6 miles from an international airport currently) where light pollution on the ground is ghastly. the impact of humans is so extreme here - virtually no place exists that has not been shaped, sculpted, modified, trashed or whipped into shape by the hands of man. in some places the only life forms larger than bacteria are humans, cockroaches, and squirrels (or rats). i visited some friends up in the appalacian mountains one weekend, "getting away from it all" (paved roads, indoor plumbing, malls, ...) and it felt good for a while - then i quickly noticed the hollow was directly under the main flight path into dulles - 60-80 miles to the east. (their 'security light' didn't help matters much either.) but i've heard the artic wilderness gets lots of high air traffic. so i know the skies are rarely perfect. but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't fouled in some way. (i mean they've been trying this forever - like, concerning tesla's idea to banish night, - wow!) i don't watch commercial television, but i can imagine just how disgusting beer, truck, or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high. if ya' gotta make a buck on it (displaying products in heaven), at least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life. to be open about this though, i have here my listing of the passage of hst in the evening sky for this weekend - tonight friday at 8:25 p.m. edt it will reach an altitude of 20.1 degrees on the local meridian from baltimore vicinity. i'll be trying to see it if i can - it _is_ my mealticket after all. so i suppose i could be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky while complaining about billboards proposed by others. be that as it may, i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid, even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved. wm. hathaway baltimore md (p.s. added tuesday - this again is not a rights/vs./reality tome, just a warning that someone into destroying beauty had better know that other people may not accept it without a complaint.) 
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 [ stuff deleted ] |> this leads to the more general question: do yet other people than |> the us, russia, and japan do space surveillance, and if so, how and |> why? |> allen thomson saic mclean, va, usa the french spot is an example that comes to mind. although the company (name escapes me at the moment) sells images world-wide, you can bet your last dollar (franc??) that the french gov't gets first i remember a few years ago (about the time spot was launched), i was speaking to my dad (an usaf officer) about this and that, and i happend to mention spot (i think we were talking about technology utilization). he just about went ballistic. he wanted to know how i knew about spot and just what i knew. i guess that space surveillance is such a sensitive topic in the air force that he couldn't believe that i would read about such a system in the popular press (ie. av week). mark l. littlefield intelligent systems department internet: mll@aio.jsc.nasa.gov ussnail: lockheed engineering and sciences 2400 nasa rd 1 / mc c-19 houston, tx 77058-3711 
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 i didn't want to quote all the stuff that's been said recently, i just wanted to add a point. the whole question of "a right to a dark sky" revolves around the definition of a right. moral rights and natural rights are all well and good, but as far as i can see, a right is whatever you or someone representing you can enforce. in most civilizations, the government or the church (or both) defines what the rights of the citizens are, and then enforces those rights for them. here in the u.s., the constitution provides a "bill of rights" from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive. i'm sure that most other countries have comparable documents. if you can persuade a court that you have a right to a dark sky derived in some manner from the bill of rights (in the u.s.), you can prevent (maybe) these billboards from being launched. to keep anyone in the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court of justice (correct name?) in the hague, something i know little about. doug loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu 
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 in space digest v16 #487, ...about the protests over proposals to put a giant billboard into orbit, i'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers. some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics. wm. hathaway baltimore md mr. hathaway's post is right on the money, if a little lengthy. in short, an orbiting billboard would be trash, in the same way that a billboard on the earth is trash. billboards make a place look trashy. that is why there are laws in many places prohibiting their use. the light pollution complaints are mainly an attempt to find some tangible reason to be against orbiting billboards because people don't feel morally justified to complain on the grounds that these things would defile the beauty of the sky. regular orbiting spacecraft are not the same in this respect, since they are more like abstract entities, but a billboard in space would be like a beer can somebody had thrown on the side of the road: just trash. dale m. greer, whose opinions are not to be confused with those of the center for space sciences, university of texas at dallas utspan::utadnx::utdssa::greer or greer@utdcss.utdallas.edu "let machines multiply, doing the work of many, but let the people have no use for them." - lao tzu 
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 come on, this is sci.space. an orbital billboard won't do any permanent damage; in a few years it will reenter and probably hit los angles anyway :-) the boost to space commerce orbital advertising might provide might speed the day it is possible for those with a yen for dark skies to get some really dark skies beyond the dust producing the zodiacal light. now, if they wanted to paint the cocacola symbol on the moon in lampblack, that would give me pause. it would be very difficult to reverse such a widespread application of pigments. thomas clarke institute for simulation and training, university of central fl 12424 research parkway, suite 300, orlando, fl 32826 (407)658-5030, fax: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu 
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 yesterday, i went to the boeing shareholders meeting. it was a bit shorter than i expected. last year (when the stock was first down), they made a big presentation on the 777, and other programs. this year, it was much more bare-bones. in any case, i wanted to ask a question that the board of directors would hear, and so i got there early, and figured that if i didn't get to the mike, maybe they would read mine off of a card, and so i wrote it down, and handed it after the meeting started, mr. shrontz said that he would only answer written questions, in order to be fair to the people in the overflow room that only had monitors downstairs. naturally, i was crushed. so, when question and answer time came, i was suprised to find my question being read and answered. admittedly near the end of the ones that he took. presumably getting there early, and getting the question in early made all the difference. so, on to the substance. the question was is boeing looking at anything beyond the high speed civil transport, such as a commercial space launch system, and if not, how will boeing compete with the reusable single stage to orbit technology presently being developed by mcdonnell douglass? well, he read it without a hitch, and without editing, with impressed me, then he answered it very quickly treating it as a two part question, last part first. this is to the best of my recollection what he said. as far as single stage to orbit technology, we think that we have a better answer in a two stage approach, and we are talking to some of our customers about that. as far as commercialization, that is a long ways off. the high speed civil transport is about as far out as our commercial planning goes at this point. so, this tells me that boeing still considers space to be a non-commercial arena, and for the most part this is true, however it also tells me that they consider there to be enough money in building space launchers for them to persue work on their own. now, i do have a friend on the spacelifter program at boeing. actually, this is a mis-nomer, as there is no spacelifter contract for the work that this guy is doing, however, he is doing work in preparation of a proposal for space lifter contracts. he won't tell me what he is doing, but maybe this is where the tsto action is taking place at boeing. at the very minimum, the chairman of the board of boeing said that they have an approach in mind, and they are trying to do something with it. anybody know anything further? is this really news? does this threaten further work on dc-? ? 
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 another factor against bringing the hst back to earth is risk of contamination. luciana c. messina lcm@spl1.spl.loral.com 
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 the space calendar is updated monthly and the latest copy is available at ames.arc.nasa.gov in the /pub/space/faq. please send any updates or corrections to ron baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov). note that launch dates are subject to change. the following person made contributions to this month's calendar: o dennis newkirk - soyuz tm-18 launch date (dec 1993). space calendar april 27, 1993 * indicates change from last month's calendar april 1993 * apr 29 - astra 1c ariane launch may 1993 may ?? - advanced photovoltaic electronics experiment (apex) pegasus launch may ?? - radcal scout launch may ?? - gps/pmq delta ii launch * may ?? - commercial experiment transporter (comet) conestoga launch * may 01 - astronomy day * may 01-2 - iapetus/saturn eclipse may 04 - galileo enters asteroid belt again may 04 - eta aquarid meteor shower (maximum: 21:00 ut, solar lon: 44.5 deg) * may 13 - air force titan 4 launch * may 18 - sts-57, endeavour, european retrievable carrier (eureca-1r) * may 20 - 15th anniversary, pioneer venus orbiter launch may 21 - partial solar eclipse, visible from north america & northern europe may 25 - magellan, aerobraking begins june 1993 jun ?? - temisat meteor 2 launch jun ?? - uhf-2 atlas launch jun ?? - noaa-i atlas launch jun ?? - first test flight of the delta clipper (dc-x), unmanned jun ?? - hispasat 1b & insat 2b ariane launch jun 04 - lunar eclipse, visible from north america jun 14 - sakigake, 2nd earth flyby (japan) jun 22 - 15th anniversary of charon discovery (pluto's moon) by christy jun 30 - sts-51, discovery, advanced communications technology satellite july 1993 jul ?? - msti-ii scout launch jul ?? - galaxy 4 ariane launch jul 01 - soyuz launch (soviet) jul 08 - soyuz launch (soviet) jul 14 - soyuz tm-16 landing (soviet) * jul 20-21 - iapetus/saturn eclipse jul 21 - soyuz tm-17 landing (soviet) jul 28 - s. delta aquarid meteor shower (maximum: 19:00 ut, solar longitude 125.8 degrees) jul 29 - nasa's 35th birthday august 1993 aug ?? - ets-vi (engineering test satellite) h2 launch (japan) aug ?? - geos-j launch aug ?? - landsat 6 launch aug ?? - orbcom fdm pegasus launch * aug 08 - 15th anniversary, pioneer venus 2 launch (atmospheric probes) aug 09 - mars observer, 4th trajectory correction maneuver (tcm-4) aug 12 - n. delta aquarids meteor shower (maximum: 07:00 ut, solar longitude 139.7 degrees) aug 12 - perseid meteor shower (maximum: 15:00 ut, solar longitude 140.1 degrees) aug 24 - mars observer, mars orbit insertion (moi) aug 25 - sts-58, columbia, spacelab life sciences (sls-2) aug 28 - galileo, asteroid ida flyby september 1993 sep ?? - spot-3 ariane launch sep ?? - tubsat launch sep ?? - seastar pegasus launch october 1993 oct ?? - intelsat 7 f1 ariane launch oct ?? - slv-1 pegasus launch oct ?? - telstar 4 atlas launch oct 01 - seawifs launch oct 22 - orionid meteor shower (maximum: 00:00 ut, solar longitude 208.7 degrees) november 1993 nov ?? - solidaridad/mop-3 ariane launch nov 03 - 20th anniversary, mariner 10 launch (mercury & venus flyby mission) nov 03 - s. taurid meteor shower nov 04 - galileo exits asteroid belt nov 06 - mercury transits across the sun, visible from asia, australia, and the south pacific * nov 08 - mars observer, mapping orbit established nov 10 - sts-60, discovery, spacehab-2 nov 13 - partial solar eclipse, visible from southern hemisphere nov 15 - wilhelm herschel's 255th birthday nov 17 - leonids meteor shower (maximum: 13:00 ut, solar longitude 235.3 degrees) * nov 22 - mars observer, mapping begins nov 28-29 - total lunar eclipse, visible from north america & south america december 1993 dec ?? - goes-i atlas launch dec ?? - nato 4b delta launch dec ?? - toms pegasus launch dec ?? - directtv 1 & thiacom 1 ariane launch dec ?? - istp wind delta-2 launch dec ?? - step-2 pegasus launch * dec ?? - soyuz tm-18 launch (soviet) dec 02 - sts-61, endeavour, hubble space telescope repair dec 04 - spektr-r launch (soviet) * dec 05 - 20th anniversary, pioneer 10 jupiter flyby dec 08 - mars observer, mars equinox dec 14 - geminids meteor shower (maximum: 00:00 ut, solar longitude 262.1 degrees) dec 20 - mars observer, solar conjunction begins dec 23 - ursids meteor shower (maximum: 01:00 ut, solar longitude 271.3 degrees) january 1994 jan 03 - mars observer, end of solar conjunction jan 24 - clementine titan iig launch (lunar orbiter, asteroid flyby mission) february 1994 feb ?? - sfu launch feb ?? - gms-5 launch feb 05 - 20th anniversary, mariner 10 venus flyby feb 08 - sts-62, columbia, u.s. microgravity payload (usmp-2) feb 15 - galileo's 430th birthday feb 21 - clementine, lunar orbit insertion feb 25 - 25th anniversary, mariner 6 launch (mars flyby mission) march 1994 mar ?? - tc-2c launch mar 05 - 15th anniversary, voyager 1 jupiter flyby mar 14 - albert einstein's 115th birthday mar 27 - 25th anniversary, mariner 7 launch (mars flyby mission) mar 29 - 20th anniversary, mariner 10, 1st mercury flyby * mar 31 - galaxy 1r delta 2 launch april 1994 * apr ?? - equator s scout launch * apr 04 - mars observer, perihelion * apr 14 - sts-59, atlantis, srl-1 ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61318">
<answer instance="sci.space61318" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 now, if they wanted to paint the cocacola symbol on the moon in lampblack, that would give me pause... wouldn't bother me. i'd laugh. it wouldn't work -- the surface of the moon is *already* pretty dark, and the contrast would be so poor you couldn't possibly see it. the only reason the moon looks bright is that it's in bright sunlight against an otherwise-dark sky. evidently heinlein didn't know that... svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61319">
<answer instance="sci.space61319" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i didn't want to quote all the stuff that's been said recently, i just wanted to add a point. then enforces those rights for them. here in the u.s., the constitution provides a "bill of rights" from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive. i'm sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups to discuss this in, but huh??? all legitimate power to enforce these rights derives from the consent of the governed, not from no steenkin' piece of paper. civilized gov'mnt is not an autonomous computer program, it's interactive. the constitution was made by the people and can be trashed by us - it ain't no sacred scripture from which rights flow. our 'rights' come from our souls. and i sure didn't see any request to vote on trashing the sky. again - my opinion only - we keep our rights by using them, not going to some court. comparable documents. if you can persuade a court that you have a right to a dark sky derived in some manner from the bill of rights (in the u.s.), you can prevent (maybe) these billboards from being launched. to keep anyone in the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court of justice (correct name?) in the hague, something i know little about. doug loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu most gracious regards, 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61321">
<answer instance="sci.space61321" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the most current orbital elements from the norad two-line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when possible). documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. as a service to the satellite user community, the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. the celestial bbs may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space. sts 55 1 22640u 93 27 a 93117.24999999 .00043819 00000-0 13174-3 0 47 2 22640 28.4694 264.3224 0004988 261.3916 194.3250 15.90699957 104 dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso@afit.af.mil air force institute of technology 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61324">
<answer instance="sci.space61324" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 hello out there, if your familiar with the comet program then this concerns you. comet is scheduled to be launched from wallops island sometime in june. does anyone know if an official launch date has been set? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61325">
<answer instance="sci.space61325" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what's more, if you buy titans, the prize money is your entire return on investment. if you develop a new launch system, it has other uses, and the prize is just the icing on the cake. unless you're martin marietta, since (as i recall) they bought out the gd line of aerospace products. i think you've got an off-by-one error in your memory. :-) mm bought the satellite-building side of ge. e, not d. mm and gd are still competitors. if mm/gd does it as an in-house project, their costs would look much better than buying at "list price." better, yes, but we're not talking order of magnitude. (especially if you want to use titan iv, which belongs to the usaf, not mm.) ... c'mon. allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this or that... sure, you can get a heavylift launcher fairly cheap if you do it privately rather than as a gummint project. but we're still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch, unless you can guarantee a large market to justify volume production. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61326">
<answer instance="sci.space61326" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 thanks to the people who have answered here and in email to my question about which countries engage in space surveillance. unfortunately, i apparently didn't make the meaning of the message clear, since most replies have addressed satellite reconnaissance, rather than space surveillance what i meant was _not_ which countries use satellites to look at the earth (satellite reconnaissance) , but _was_ which countries have programs to detect and track (i.e., determine the orbital elements of) satellites as they pass overhead (space surveillance). the us uses missile-defense radars, supplemented by a fascinating quasi-radar operated by the navy, to do this for satellites in leo, and electrooptical systems for objects at altitudes above 5,000 km or so. the fee, i understand, does much the same thing. amateur satellite observers use eyeballs, binoculars, stopwatches and pcs for objects out to around 1500 km, enabling them to keep track of satellites for which, ah, official element sets aren't available. see the fascinating books by desmond king-hele for details, as well as the files in the molczan directory on kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov. the material posted in my previous message suggests that japan engages in optical and radar space surveillance to a modest degree, and it may be that other countries do also. which was the question i meant to ask: who are they, how do they do it, and why do they do it? allen thomson saic mclean, va oh, yes: i don't speak for saic. 
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<instance id="sci.space61329">
<answer instance="sci.space61329" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex-military establishment, focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the buran shuttle system, they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad, outside of moscow. if this facility is in kaliningrad, this is not near moscow, correction, and some more info: the kaliningrad that mr. larrison writes about is indeed near moscow. i've read that it may also be known by the name podlipk, and is a short distance from zvezdny gorodok (star city) and the cosmonaut training center there. i read that the tsniimach (central scientific research institute of machine building, est. 1961) enterprise was also responsible for creating the nkik (ground command and measurement complex) including the kaliningrad flight control center which has controlled all soviet/russian manned spaceflights since its completion in 1973. however, it appears to have been a part of the ministry of general machine building which was not part of the military (ministry of defense) but would have been a part of the military-industrial dennis newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com) motorola, land mobile products sector schaumburg, il 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61330">
<answer instance="sci.space61330" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 astronomy & space magazine's uk telephone newsline carries the times to see the russian space station mir which will be visible every evening (some time between 9 o'clock and midnight) from april 27 to may 7. it's about as bright as jupiter at its best. there are two cosmonuats on board. for the time to watch, tel. 0891-88-19-50 (48p/min peak 36p/min all other times, but prediction is at start of the weekly message so it only costs a few pence). e-mail reports of sightings would be appreciated: give lat/long and ut (a few seconds accuracy if possible) when it passes above or below any bright star (say brighter than mag. 3), planet or moon. with moon in evening sky also, note that from somewhere in u.k. mir will pass in front of the moon each night! please alert local clubs to the telephone newsline, and general public as mir can cause quite a stir! -tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: astronomy ireland, p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. 6 issues (one year sub.): uk 10.00 pounds, us$20 surface (add us$8 airmail). access/visa/mastercard accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). (world's largest astro. soc. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%) tel: 0891-88-1950 (uk/n.ireland) 1550-111-442 (eire). cost up to 48p per min p.s.: mir seen right on time april 28th, passed just above jupiter. brighter than arcturus but dimmer than jupiter (not one of its highest passes!). 
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<instance id="sci.space61331">
<answer instance="sci.space61331" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ...radiation field has been measured and modeled by various groups. if i remember things correctly, the models involved contributions from three different bb sources, so there's no obvious "temperature" of background radiation in our local area... indeed, the sky doesn't look much like a black body if you look carefully enough; in particular, its temperature at radio frequencies is quite a bit higher than you would see from a black body. morgan&gordon's fat "communications satellite handbook" has a graph of sky temperature vs. wavelength, in fact, for communications design. however, in terms of energy content, the rf frequencies are negligible. for thermal purposes, at very large distances from the sun the sky looks like a black body at 3.5k (allen, "astrophysical quantities"). i haven't found a number for non-large distances, since solar radiation tends to be something you can't just ignore :-), but m&g says "about 4k" in a brief discussion of why solar radiation dominates the problem. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61333">
<answer instance="sci.space61333" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 mike adams suggested discussions on long-term effects of spaceflight to the human being. i love this topic, as some of you regulars know. so, having seen henry's encouraging statement about starting to talk about it; i shall. i feel that we as a community of people have unique resources to deliver to the world a comprehensive book which can elaborate on the utility of spaceflight to fields which are as divergent as medical intensive care, agriculture, environmental protection, and probably more. i do not believe that the general public understands the impact of spaceflight on the whole of society. in the absence of such knowledge, we see dwindling support of the world's space effort. i believe that we as a group have the responsibility to not only communicate amongst ourselves, but also with others through print media. a well-orchestrated and technically oriented analysis of life science variables required to support long-duration spaceflight (like long expenditions to the moon or mars) would be entertaining and educational to the general public. the objective of such an effort would be to compile resources and publications from accepted scientific and technical journals which would address each major life science area. in addition, ideas for further research and development could be put forward for the general public to ponder...allowing the general public to take part in the excitement of exploration. individuals interested should be willing to devote an hour per week to running literature searches and finding journal articles. in addition, we need to obtain the assistance of personnel from within the halls of nasa and industry. i have appreciated the positive responses to date and i am personally eager to start this project. perhaps we could start with debate regarding how best to grade the viability of various technologies for application to spaceflight. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61334">
<answer instance="sci.space61334" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 batse, by having 8 detectors of its own, can do its own location determination, but only to within about 3 degrees (would someone at gsfc, like david, like to comment on the current state of location determination?). having inde- pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty. well, i'll avoid your question for now (got some learnin' to do) with a promise to come back with more info when i can find it. i _do_ know that batse is the primary instrument in the development of the all-sky map of long-term sources. given that fact, and the spacecraft attitude knowledge of approx. 2 arcmin, we might be able to figure out how well batse can determine the location (rotational) of a gamma ray burster from knowledge of the all-sky map's accuracy. pr material for the other three instruments give accuracies on the order of "fractions of a degree", if that's any help. speaking of gro, the net-world probably was happy to see that the preps for orbit adjust appear to be going well. our branch guy who's helping out says that things have gone smoothly with the iso-valve preps and the burns will take place in mid-june. anyway, i'm off to find out more. 'be back when i get some info. david w. @ gsfc "i don't know nuthin' 'bout measurin' no gamma rays" _gone with the wind_, paraphrased 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61336">
<answer instance="sci.space61336" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone have a reference (something i can look up, not just your own recollections -- i have a few of those myself) on the temperature of the (night) sky as seen from space? you'll find that in allen, c.w., "astrophysical quantities", athlone press, dover, nh, 3rd edition, pp. 268-269 (1973). to the accuracy it can be calculated (see specific references in allen about how it is calculated), the temperature is 3 degrees k. lots of people have remarked on this temperature. the first may have been in eddington's book, "internal constitution of stars", ch. 13 (1926; reprinted 1986), where he gives the "temperature of space" as 3 degrees. the source of this temperature is the radiation of starlight. my dim recollection is that the net effective temperature is substantially higher than that of the mbr, once you figure in things like stars and the zodiacal light, but i'd like numbers. to the accuracy of measurement, it's the same temperature. some of us think this may not be a coincidence. -|tom|- tom van flandern / washington, dc / metares@well.sf.ca.us meta research was founded to foster research into ideas not otherwise supported because they conflict with mainstream theories in astronomy. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61337">
<answer instance="sci.space61337" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |energetic for close by. for the coronal model, we found around 10^43 erg/sec. |and lastly, for the cosmological model an l=10^53. that's what you'd call |moderately energetic, i'd say. any suggestions about what could put out that |much energy in one second? big capacitor :-) real big capacitor. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61340">
<answer instance="sci.space61340" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |i say: |what i'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably, |would move around in the sky. i, for one, am against legislating |at all. i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and |would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human. this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things, including the night sky. sorry that's an aesthetics argument. maybe this string shoudl mofe to sci.space.aesthetics. planes ruin the night sky. blimps ruin the night sky. radio towers ruin the night sky. like i said, get a vote, and create some more national parks. which include onobstructed air space. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61342">
<answer instance="sci.space61342" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 given that fact, and the spacecraft attitude knowledge of approx. 2 arcmin, we might be able to figure out how well batse can determine the location (rotational) of a gamma ray burster from knowledge of the all-sky map's accuracy. pr material for the other three instruments give accuracies on the order of "fractions of a degree", if that's any help. but i believe that there is a fundamental difference here. the other x three instruments are focusing instruments, that, more or less, form an image, so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the resolving power of the optics. batse is an altogether different beast, effectively just 8 coincidence counters, one on each corner of the craft. positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors. positional error would be predominantly determined by timing errors and errors in craft attitude. since none of the 8 baste detectors have any independant angular resolution whatsoever, they can not be used to determine parallax. indeed, parallax would just add a very small component to the positional error. demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution on the order of arcseconds, since the oort cloud is postulated to extend to about 0.5 parsec (all together now: "parallax arc second", a parsec is the distance of an object that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a 2 au base line). if the 3 degree accuracy reported above is true, we're going to have to add a baste to the pluto fast flyby to get enough baseline. the beauty of baste is that it both gives positional information and watches the entire sky simultaneously, a realy handy combination when you have no idea where the next burst is coming from. batse alone isn't always used to determine position. when a particularly bright burst occurs, there are a couple of other detectors that catch it going off. pioneer 10 or 11 is the one i'm getting at here. this puppy is far enough away, that if a bright burst happens nearby, the huge annulus created by it will hopefully intersect the line or general circle given by batse, and we can get a moderately accurate position. say oh, 2 or 3 degrees. that is the closest anyone has ever gotten with it. actually, my advisor, another classmate of mine, and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites. then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like 200 pounds of eq. well, a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it, and 1 alone weighs about 200 pounds itself. we decided against it. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61343">
<answer instance="sci.space61343" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 my guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost? why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst, then let it make the re-boost. it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug. that way, now that they are going to need at least 5 spacewalks, then they can carry an edo pallet, and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array tilt motor fix. as herny pointed out, you have to develop the thruster. also, while much lighter, you still have to lift the mass of the thruster to orbit, and then the thruster lifts its own weight into a higher orbit. and you take up room in the payload 
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<instance id="sci.space61347">
<answer instance="sci.space61347" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone have a reference (something i can look up, not just your own recollections -- i have a few of those myself) on the temperature of the (night) sky as seen from space? note, i am *not* talking about the temperature of the microwave background radiation. there are more things in the sky than just the mbr; what i'm after is total blackbody temperature -- what a thermal radiator would see, disregarding (or shielding against) the sun and nearby large warm objects. henry, if i read you correctly, you may be asking "if i put a blackbody in interstellar space ('disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects'), what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field?" if that's the case, let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are, well, not-too-far from being blackbodies. many different observations, including iras and cobe, have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from 40k to 150k. you might look in a conference proceedings "interstellar processes", ed. d. j. hollenbach and h. a. thronson, jr., published in 1987. try the articles by tielens et al., seab, and inside the disk of the galaxy, the temperature varies quite a bit from place to place (how close are you to the nearest ob association, i would guess). outside the galaxy, of course, things aren't so i hope this is what you were looking for.... ----- michael richmond "this is the heart that broke my finger." richmond@astro.princeton.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61351">
<answer instance="sci.space61351" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 planes ruin the night sky. blimps ruin the night sky. radio towers ruin the night sky. like i said, get a vote, and create some more national parks. which include onobstructed air space. you should have heard prof. mcnally , from my days as an astronomy undergraduate, denouncing photon pollution. it was easy to imagine him taking practical steps to modify the sodium lamps on the street outside mill hill observatory with a 12-gauge shotgun :-) however, seriously, it is possible to limit the effects of streetlights, by adding a reflector, so that the light only illuminates the ground, which is after all where you need it. as a bonus, the power consumption required for a given illumination level is reduced. strangely enough, astronomers often seek to lobby elected local authorities to use such lighting systems, with considerable success in the desert areas around the major us observatories. at least, thats what mcnally told us, all those years ago. ( british local authorities couldn`t care less, as far as i can see ) i suppose that the "right" to dark skies is no more than an aspiration, but it is a worthwhile one. illuminated orbital billboards seem especially yukky, and are presumably in the area of international law, if any, although i do find the idea of a right to bear anti-satellite weapons intriguing. __._____.___._____.__._______________________________________________________ __|_. ._| ._|_._._|__| peter card, joint european torus, abingdon | | | |_. | | | oxfordshire ox14 3ea uk. tel 0235-464867 fax 464404 | | | _| | | | email pjc@jet.uk or compuserve 100010,366 ._| | | |_. | | | it wasnt me. it was the others. they made me do it. - disclaimer: please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project. 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61353">
<answer instance="sci.space61353" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am taking a course entitled "exploring science using internet". for our final project, we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science-related topic. i chose astronomy. anyway, i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy, space, nasa, or anything like that. thanks! keith malinowski stk1203@vax003.stockton.edu p.o. box 2472 stockton state college pomona, new jersey 08240 
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<instance id="sci.space61355">
<answer instance="sci.space61355" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans. i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet. the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions. [deleted] dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled, "habitable planets for man" (i think) in 1964. it should be available in most good libraries, or through inter-library loan. this is the high-school science version; the original rand study by stephen h dole "planets for man" gives the harder numbers & graphs & such (but predates michael hart's (& later) work on continuously habitable zones) 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61357">
<answer instance="sci.space61357" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i didn't want to quote all the stuff that's been said recently, i just wanted to add a point. then enforces those rights for them. here in the u.s., the constitution provides a "bill of rights" from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive. i'm sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups to discuss this in, but huh??? all legitimate power to enforce these rights derives from the consent of the governed, not from no steenkin' piece of paper. we don't disagree on this. all i said was that a right is whatever you or somebody acting for you can enforce. the bill of rights didn't come into effect until it was ratified by the states (and indirectly, the people); from that point it defined legal rights. "common law" rights are vague and situational; that's why the people insisted on a bill of rights in the constitution, spelling out exactly what they demanded from the government. legitimate or illegitimate, power is power. that's why the federal government can force states to grant their citizens rights they don't wish to: in a slugging match, the feds win. period. and you're right, this doesn't belong in sci.space. i've said my peace. no more frome me on rights (at least not here). most gracious regards, doug loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61358">
<answer instance="sci.space61358" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i have often thought about, if its possible to have a powerfull laser on earth, to light at the moon, and show lasergraphics at the surface so clearly that you can see it with your eyes when there is a new how about a coca cola logo at the moon, easy way to target billions of do you know if its possible? erik m. hansen | email u920496@daimi.aau.dk fuglsangsalle 69 | aarhus university dk-8210 erhus v | denmark, europe | 
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<instance id="sci.space61363">
<answer instance="sci.space61363" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i have never heard of any serious consideration that hst might be brought down for refurbishment. you would have the horrendous cost of transporting, back in january and february there were several articles (wash post, time...) saying that nasa was "considering" the option just as it is now "considering" a followup mission 6-12 months after the servicing mission. however, the down time was estimated to be a year+ (servicing, checkout, sceheduling and training another shuttle, orbit verification...) and to be quite expensive. i think it may have been more a mental exercise than a real plan. don't know. robert dempsey (410) 338-1334 stsci/podps "he which hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart; his passport shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse: we would not die in this man's company that fears his fellowship to die with us." -shakespeare 
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<instance id="sci.space61364">
<answer instance="sci.space61364" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |i say: |what i'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably, |would move around in the sky. i, for one, am against legislating |at all. i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and |would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human. this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things, including the night sky. sorry that's an aesthetics argument. maybe this string shoudl mofe to sci.space.aesthetics. planes ruin the night sky. blimps ruin the night sky. radio towers ruin the night sky. like i said, get a vote, and create some more national parks. which include onobstructed air space. hokay - i am hereby voting my backyard to be a sanctuary - one acre where i can object to anything i do not like for aesthetic reasons. <::-) what a relief to know we both can be happy. 
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<instance id="sci.space61367">
<answer instance="sci.space61367" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ... c'mon. allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this or that... sure, you can get a heavylift launcher fairly cheap if you do it privately rather than as a gummint project. but we're still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch, unless you can guarantee a large market to justify volume production. "let's make a deal!" if you're going to put up a billion, i'd want to budget the whole sheebang for $450-600 million. if i have that much money to throw around in the first place, you betcha i'm going to sign a contract committing to volume production... software engineering? that's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > sysmgr@cadlab.eng.umd.edu < -- 
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<instance id="sci.space61368">
<answer instance="sci.space61368" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i propose that pepsico, mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages, such as, "stop the slaughter in bosnia!" , etc. 
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<instance id="sci.space61370">
<answer instance="sci.space61370" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : : i have 19 (2 mb worth!) uuencode'd gif images contain charts outlining : : one of the many alternative space station designs being considered in : : crystal city. [...] : i just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp on server ics.uci.edu. : you can retrieve them from: : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode09.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodea.gif : ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeb.gif : the last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing : charts. : these will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days, : so now's the time to grab them if you're interested. sorry it took : me so long to get these out, but i was trying for the ames server, : but it's out of space. but now i need to clarify the situation. the "/incoming" directory on ics.uci.edu does not allow you to do an "ls" command. the files are there (i just checked on 04/28/93 at 9:35 cdt), and you can "get" them (don't forget the "binary" mode!), but you can't "ls" in the "/incoming" directory. a further update: mark's design made the cover of space news this week as one of the design alternatives which was rejected. but he's still in there plugging. i wish him luck -- using et's as the basis of a space station has been a good idea for a long time. may the best design win. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "good ideas are not adopted automatically. they must be driven into practice with courageous impatience." -- admiral hyman g. rickover 
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<instance id="sci.space61371">
<answer instance="sci.space61371" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ron miller is a space artist with a long and distinguished career. i've admired both his paintings (remember the usps solar system exploration stamps last year?) and his writings on the history of spaceflight. for several years he's been working on a *big* project which is almost ready to hit the streets. a brochure from his publisher has landed in my mailbox, and i thought it was cool enough to type in part of it (it's rather long). especially given the net's strong interest in vaporware spacecraft... the dream machines: an illustrated history of the spaceship in art, science, and literature by ron miller with foreword by arthur c. clarke krieger publishing company melbourne, florida, usa orig. ed. 1993 pre-publication $84.50 isbn 0-89464-039-9 this text is a history of the spaceship as both a cultural and a technological phenomenon. the idea of a vehicle for traversing the space betwen worlds did not spring full-blown into existence in the tlatter half of theis century. the need preceded the ability ot make such a device by several hundred years. as soon as it was realized that there were other worlds than this one, human beings wanted to reach them. tracing the history of the many imaginative, and often prescient, attempts to solve this problem also reflects the history of technology, science, astronomy, and engineering. once space travel became feasible, there were many more spacecraft concepts developed than ever got off the drawing board-- or off the ground, for that matter. these also are described in theis book, for the same reason as the pre-space-age and pre-flight ideas are: they are all accurate reflections of their particular era's dreams, abilities, and knowledge. virtually every spaceship concept invented since 1500, as well as selected events important in developing the idea of extraterrestrial travel, is listed chronologically. the chronological entries allow comparisons between actual astronautical events and speculative ventures. they also allow comparisons between simultaneous events taking place in different countries. they reveal connections, influences, and evolutions hitherto unsuspected. every entry is accompanied by at least one illustration. nearly every spacecraft concept is illustrated with a schematic drawing. this allows accurate comparisons to be made between designss, to visualize differences, similarities, and influences. this text will be of interest to students of astronautical history, and also to model builders who would be interested in the schematic diagrams. science fiction fans as well as aviation history buffs and historians of science will also find this book to be fascinating. the unique collection of illustrations makes it a visually attractive and very interesting history of the spaceship. special features includes scale drawings of several hundred spacecraft, both real and contains scores of illustrations: artwork, drawings, and photos contemporary with the subject. this includes extremely rare illustrations from scarce books and novels, exclusive photos and drawings fromsoviet spacecraft; rare stills from both famous and obscure science fiction films, and unpublished photographs from nasa an index, bibliography, and appendices are included. part i the archaeology of the spaceship (360 b.c. to 1783 a.d.) part ii the invention of the spaceship (1784-1899) part iii the experimenters (1900-1938) part iv the world war (1939-1945) part v the golden age of the spaceship (1946-1960) part vi the dawn of the space age (1961 to the present) about ron miller [the brochure has a page of stuff here; i'll try to hit the high spots.] former art director for albert einstein planetarium at smithsonian's national air and space museum member of international association for astronomical arts, member of international astronautical association, fellow of the british interplanetary society, consulting editor for *air & space smithsonian* magazine author, co-author, editor, or sole illustrator on many books since 1979, including *space art*, *cycles of fire*, *the grand tour*, and many others, as well as many articles and papers book jackets and interior art for over a dozen publishers contributor to ibm traveling exhibition and book *blueprint for space* production illustrator for movies *dune* and *total recall* designer of ten-stamp set of commemorative space postage stamps for u.s. postal service in 1991 (solar system exploration) ordering information pre-publication price $84.50 before 1 may 1993 afterwards, price will be $112.50 krieger publishing company po box 9542 melbourne, fl 32902-9542 direct order line (407)727-7270 fax (407)951-3671 add $5.00 for shipping by ups within usa for first book, $1.50 for each additional book. for foreign orders, add $6.00 for first book, $2.00 for each additional. additional charges for airmail shipments. o~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/ - ~ -~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap! / \ (_) (_) / | \ | | bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory \ / bitnet: higgins@fnal.bitnet - - internet: higgins@fnal.fnal.gov ~ span/hepnet/physnet: 43011::higgins 
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<instance id="sci.space61372">
<answer instance="sci.space61372" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 static test firings are now scheduled for this saturday.....after many schedule changes..... it may be difficult to get test status during the next two weeks....the number of contacts are drying up as they all go to new mexico......go delta clipper!! 
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<instance id="sci.space61374">
<answer instance="sci.space61374" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ...the temperature of the (night) sky as seen from space? you'll find that in allen, c.w., "astrophysical quantities", athlone press, dover, nh, 3rd edition, pp. 268-269 (1973)... #@$#%$!! i *have* a copy of allen, and it never occurred to me to look in there... i must be getting old... i'll look it up when i get home. ... the temperature is 3 degrees k. i'd remembered a rather higher number, but that may have been for the lunar nearside, where the earth is a significant heat source. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61376">
<answer instance="sci.space61376" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 does anyone have a reference (something i can look up, not just your own recollections -- i have a few of those myself) on the temperature of the (night) sky as seen from space? henry, if i read you correctly, you may be asking "if i put a blackbody in interstellar space ('disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects'), what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field?" if that's the case, let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are, well, not-too-far from being blackbodies. many different observations, including iras and cobe, have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from 40k to 150k. yes, but that's because interstellar grains are very poor radiators, not remotely black bodies. as a consequence they are a lot warmer than the "ambient". inside the disk of the galaxy, the temperature varies quite a bit from place to place (how close are you to the nearest ob association, i would guess). outside the galaxy, of course, things aren't so when i was in graduate school, a long time ago, we used 10,000 deg k with a dilution factor of 10+4 for representative values of the radiant energy background in the galaxy due to starlight. 
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<instance id="sci.space61382">
<answer instance="sci.space61382" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [...] but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems. the shuttle just isn't designed to land with that much weight in the payload. is hst really _that_ much heavier than a spacelab ??? i can't speak to sheer mass, but part of the problem is that hst wasn't built to ever be brought back down. it's not built for those kinds of 'jolt' forces and there is no support cradle for it (which is additional weight that would be required. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61384">
<answer instance="sci.space61384" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 4) we know it's not real close, like slightly extra solar, because we have no parallax measurements on the bursts. we can only say that they are beyond about 25 au, due to the low accuracy of position determination by single detectors. what i am wondering, is this in people's opinion, a new physics problem. einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect. copernicus, started looking at irregularities in planetary motion. is this a big enough problem, to create a new area of physics? just a little speculative thinking folks. it may be a new physics problem (i.e. a problem involving new physics). however, the data is not good enough to rule out the >100 models which use old physics. new physics is a big step, and is only tolerated when there is no alternative. for example , the dark matter problem (there's more to the universe than meets the eye) is a question of comparable mystery to grbs, but we have much better data regarding it. theoreticians postulate new particles all the time to explain it, but no one will actually believe that these particles are real until an experimentalist (or several) detects them in the lab. david m. palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.space61386">
<answer instance="sci.space61386" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 is this a big enough problem, to create a new area of physics? just a little speculative thinking folks. well pat for once i agree with you and i like your first idea that you had. it probably is the gamma ray signature of the warp transitions of interstellar spacecraft! :) well it makes as much sense as some things. i was at the first gamma ray burst conference here at uah and had great fun watching the discomfiture of many of the gamma ray scientists. much scruitiny was given to the data reductions. i remember one person in particular who passionately declared that the data was completely wrong as there were no explanation for the phenomena of the smooth sky distribution. (heck it even shoots down the warp transition theory :(. the next conference is soon and i will endeavour to keep in touch with this fun subject. 
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<instance id="sci.space61387">
<answer instance="sci.space61387" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i propose that pepsico, mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages, such as, "stop the slaughter in bosnia!" or how about: "end light pollution now!!" your banner would have no effect on its subject, but my banner would. david m. palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov 
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<instance id="sci.space61388">
<answer instance="sci.space61388" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 one of the main reasons nations like the us and russia observe satellite that have been launched is forbs system whick loft nuclear bombs into orbit which are planned to be detonated in leo causing emp pulses interfering with the target command and control system. 
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<instance id="sci.space61390">
<answer instance="sci.space61390" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled, "habitable planets for man" (i think) in 1964. it should be available in most good libraries, or through inter-library loan. this is the high-school science version; the original rand study by stephen h dole "planets for man" gives the harder numbers & graphs & such (but predates michael hart's (& later) work on continuously habitable zones) is this still in print or available (other than on loan)? i remember reading this many years ago and it's still the best thing i remember in this vein. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61391">
<answer instance="sci.space61391" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if re-boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it, then why couldn't hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done i'm not sure if this is a big issue, but it seems to me like it might be -- up till now, all >1g forces applied to the mirror and its mounting (and nearly all =1g forces) have been applied along the telescope's optical axis, and against the mirror's base. reentry would apply forces along roughly the same axis, but tending to pull the mirror away from the mount, and the landing would apply on-edge forces to both the mirror and mount. it could be that one or both of these would not survive. greg titus (gbt@zia.cray.com) compiler group cray research, inc. santa fe, nm opinions expressed herein (such as they are) are purely my own. 
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<instance id="sci.space61392">
<answer instance="sci.space61392" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 resolving power of the optics. batse is an altogether different beast, effectively just 8 coincidence counters, one on each corner of the craft. positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors. obviously not. count rates are too low and signal rise times too long for this to be possible. the cgro, is, what, 10 meters long? you'd need to time to an accuracy of nanoseconds to do this. what batse actually does is measure the relative strength in each of the detectors (also as a function of photon energy). each of the detectors does not have isotropic response. to do this right one must model the scattering of photons in the material around each detector, and even scattering of photons off the earth's atmosphere back onto the spacecraft. i believe they have now reduced the error to about 2 paul f. dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61393">
<answer instance="sci.space61393" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i want to know what weightlessness actually feels like. for example, is there a constant sensation of falling? yes, weightlessness does feel like falling. it may feel strange at first, but the body does adjust. the feeling is not too different from that of sky diving. and what is the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience? it is the body's reaction to a strange environment. it appears to be induced partly to physical discomfort and part to mental distress. some people are more prone to it than others, like some people are more prone to get sick on a roller coaster ride than others. the mental part is usually induced by a lack of clear indication of which way is up or down, ie: the shuttle is normally oriented with its cargo bay pointed towards earth, so the earth (or ground) is "above" the head of the astronauts. about 50% of the astronauts experience some form of motion sickness, and nasa has done numerous tests in space to try to see how to keep the number of occurances down. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61395">
<answer instance="sci.space61395" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution on the order of arcseconds, since the oort cloud is postulated to extend to about 0.5 parsec (all together now: "parallax arc second", a parsec is the distance of an object that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a 2 au base line). according to my *glossary of astronomy and astrophysics*: "parsec (abbreviation for parallax second) the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of 1 second of arc. 1 pc = 206,265 au = 3.086 x 10^13 km = 3.26 lt-yr." | george krumins /^\ the serpent and the rainbow | | gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu <^^. .^^> | | pufferfish observatory <_ (o) _> | | \_/ | 
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<instance id="sci.space61396">
<answer instance="sci.space61396" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> >>[...] but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the |> >>back and you could have problems. the shuttle just isn't designed to land |> >>with that much weight in the payload. |> >is hst really _that_ much heavier than a spacelab ??? |> i can't speak to sheer mass, but part of the problem is that hst |> wasn't built to ever be brought back down. it's not built for those |> kinds of 'jolt' forces and there is no support cradle for it (which is |> additional weight that would be required. just to throw it out there: the mass of the telescope is 11,600 kg (25,500 lb). i do not know what space lab weighs, but i believe it is less. can anyone verify?? also, remember that weight was not the only concern, as many others have noted, just one possible concern. i was responding to a statement that if you can boost it, why can't you land it. those are too different | rob douglas | space | 3700 san martin drive | | ai software engineer | telescope | baltimore, md 21218, usa | | advance planning systems branch | science | phone: (410) 338-4497 | | internet: rdouglas@stsci.edu | institute | fax: (410) 338-1592 | disclaimer-type-thingie>>>>> these opinions are mine! unless of course they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines. but with my intellect, i doubt it. besides, if it was useful intellectual property, do you think i would type it in here? | rob douglas | space | 3700 san martin drive | | ai software engineer | telescope | baltimore, md 21218, usa | | advance planning systems branch | science | phone: (410) 338-4497 | 
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<instance id="sci.space61397">
<answer instance="sci.space61397" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 sorry, i've lost track of who asked the question originally (our news server at gsfc keeps things around for tremendously short periods of time), but wanted to be certain before i replied. someone asked about displaying the compressed images from the voyager imaging cd-roms on a mac. as peter ford (mit) pointed out, a decompression program is available via ftp. (sorry, i don't remember the name of the node offhand, although it's .mit.edu.) in any case, though, one of the mac display programs (cd rom browser by dana swift) does display the compressed images directly. the program is shareware and is distributed by nssdc for nominal reproduction costs ($9 + shipping, if memory serves). this does *not* cover the shareware price which should go to dana for his diligent work and upgrades, however. to request current pricing information, information about available display software, catalogs, or data from nssdc, contact our user support office at: national space science data center coordinated request and user support office (cruso) mail code 633 nasa/goddard space flight center greenbelt, md 20771 phone: (301) 286-6695 fax: (301) 286-4952 | dr. edwin v. bell, ii | e-mail: | | mail code 633.9 | (span) ncf::bell | | national space science | or nssdc::bell | | data center | or nssdca::bell | | nasa | or nssdcb::bell | | goddard space flight center | (internet) bell@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov | | greenbelt, md 20771 | | | (301) 513-1663 | | 
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<instance id="sci.space61398">
<answer instance="sci.space61398" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the aiaa san gabriel valley section is sponsoring the following lecture on mars exploration at the jet propulsion lab. admission is free and open to the public. the next frontier: the challenge of mars exploration date: may 6, 1993 time: 6:00pm - 8:30 pm location: von karman auditorium jet propulsion lab 4800 oak grove drive pasadena, california the following five speakers will be featured: a science fiction perspective tom mcdonaugh science fiction writer mars observer dr. arden albee project scientist, mars observer - jpl mars '94 dr. arthur l. lane instrument manager, mars '94 - jpl mars environmental survey (mesur) richard cook mission designer - jpl manned mission to mars dr. robert zubrin senior engineer, martin marietta astronautics for more information, contact aiaa at 800-683-2422 or mark leon at 310-332-1098. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61400">
<answer instance="sci.space61400" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 1. calculators 2. teflon (so your eggs don't stick in the pan) 3. pacemakers (kept my grandfather alive from 1976 until 1988) i don't think touting contributions is a good idea. world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs. eg. radar, jet aeroplanes, rocket technology. i don't think anyone would argue that world war ii was, in and of itself, a good thing. if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself. i disagree with what to tout, although i agree that the space program is inherently a good thing. most people today only care about "what will it cost me?" and "what's in it for me?" and could care less about whether something is simply worthwhile in and of itself. our society has become increasingly geared toward the short-term (which you could read as now!). they couldn't care less about next week, much less next century. they want something to show for the expenditure and they want it *now*. i think we *should* tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs of the space program. that is the only way you can *prove* its worth to *them* - and they vote and pay taxes too. the continued existence of the space program relies upon that money. just my $.02 btw: don't forget velcro... bcnu - john gladu systems support center -- baylor college of medicine internet: jgladu@bcm.tmc.edu | voice: (713)798-7370 us mail: one baylor plaza, houston, texas 77030 .opinions expressed are just that.obviously. 
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<instance id="sci.space61402">
<answer instance="sci.space61402" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky... :-d seen that movie already... actually, the idea, like most good ideas, comes from jules verne, not _the gods must be crazy._... my comment was off the top of my head; i wasn't aware that it had already been thought of. guess it's true that there's nothing new under the sun (or in this case, the flying billboards.) jeff cook jeff.cook@ftcollinsco.ncr.com 
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<instance id="sci.space61406">
<answer instance="sci.space61406" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm wondering if "vandalize" is the proper word to use in this situation. my dictionary defines "vandalism" as "the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property, especially of anything beautiful or artisitc." i would agree the sky is beautiful, but not that it is public or private property. i personally prefer natural skies, far from city lights and sans aircraft. however, there is also something to be said for being able to look up into the sky and see a satellite. many people get a real kick out of it, especially if they haven't seen one before. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61407">
<answer instance="sci.space61407" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april 28, 1993 12:40 pm pdt flight sequence c9 is active as of 00:11 am, tuesday, april 27. with activities beginning at shortly before 5:00 am yesterday, c9 commanded the spacecraft to execute a series of slews and rolls to provide the mag (magnetometer) team data points in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations for the purpose of better characterizing the spacecraft-generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument. the spacecraft was commanded back to sun star init state at 9:07 am to re-establish inertial reference. transition back to array normal spin began at 11:17 am, after which the sequence powered on the on-board transmitter at 11:18 am. telemetry reacquisition occurred at approximately 11:30 am at the 4 kbs science and engineering downlink data rate on the high gain antenna. subsystem engineers report that all systems appear to be nominal. the command to terminate using the low gain antenna for uplink was sent at 12:31 pm. uplink and downlink are currently via the hga. mag calibration data has been recorded on digital tape recorders 2 and 3. playback of dtr 2 is scheduled to take place tomorrow morning between 8:11 am and 12:42 pm. playback of dtr 3 is scheduled to take place tomorrow evening beginning at 11:57 pm and ending at 4:28 am on friday. dtr playback will be performed via the high gain antenna at 42,667 bits per second. upon verification of successful dtr playbacks, downlink will be maintained at the 4k s & e rate. the mag cal activity timeline ends at shortly before 5:00 am on friday ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61408">
<answer instance="sci.space61408" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 message-id: <9304271045.aa00468@ll.mit.edu> to: wingert@vnet.ibm.com if you are familiar with the software work that received the level 5 rating, could you post a description of it and/or some references? i think many people would be interested to know just what the ibm team on that effort is doing differently from most other organizations/projects that earned them that rating. i am familiar with the project. it is the onboard shuttle flight software project. this software controls the space shuttle during all dynamic phases as well as on-orbit. it has ultra-high reliability and extremely low error rates. there have been several papers published on the subject and i'll collect some references. there may be an article in the ibm systems journal late '93, early '94. there is no magic formula. we did it with dedicated and disciplined folks who worked to put together a process that finds and removes errors and is corrected based on errors that "escape". we present a one day overview of our process periodically to interested folks. the next one is may 19th in washington, d.c. i can fax specifics to those who are interested. bret wingert wingert@vnet.ibm.com (713)-282-7534 fax: (713)-282-8077 
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<instance id="sci.space61409">
<answer instance="sci.space61409" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 but i believe that there is a fundamental difference here. the other x three instruments are focusing instruments, that, more or less, form an image, so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the resolving power of the optics. batse is an altogether different beast, effectively just 8 coincidence counters, one on each corner of the craft. positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors. this is not quite right. the differential arrival time techinique requires interplanetary baselines to get good positions. the differential arrival at the eight detectors differ by 10's of nanoseconds. this is smaller than batse's microsecond timing capabilities. batse, ulysses, and mars obsverver are used for this technique. each batse detector does not have a full sky field of view. the sensitivity of each detector decreases with increasing angle of incidence. the burst position on the sky is determined by comparing the count rates in different detectors. 
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<instance id="sci.space61410">
<answer instance="sci.space61410" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 having read in the past about the fail-safe mechanisms on spacecraft, i had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort of function. however i always find disturbing the oxymoron of a "no-op" command that does something. if the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not a "no-op" command. i know its semantics, but the "no-op" _doesn't_ do anything. the command loss timer is simply looking for a command, any command. a "no-op" is simply a spacecraft command that drops bits into the big bit bucket in the sky. "no-op" also get used as timekeepers to provide millisecond delays between command sequences (used on the thruster preps on gro, er, compton) and to verify command links at the beginning of tdrs events. all in all, a rather useful command. and, an intelligent fdc test on galileo (the command loss timer). david w. @ gsfc (still looking for gro data, even though i'm the wrong david) 
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<instance id="sci.space61414">
<answer instance="sci.space61414" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 just a few contributions from the space program to "regular" society: 1. calculators 2. teflon (so your eggs don't stick in the pan) sorry to split hairs, but i just read in "the making of the atomic bomb"(*) that teflon was developed during world war 2. a sealant was needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was gradually enriched by difussion. uf6 is very corrosive, and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals. 3. pacemakers (kept my grandfather alive from 1976 until 1988) alejo hausner (hausner@qucis.queensu.ca) (*) richard rhodes, "the making of the atomic bomb", simon and 
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<instance id="sci.space61416">
<answer instance="sci.space61416" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 forwarded from neal ausman, galileo mission director mission director status report post-launch april 23 - 29, 1993 1. on april 22 and 23, delta differenced one-way range (dor) passes were performed over dss-14/63 (goldstone/madrid 70 meter antennas) and dss-14/43 (goldstone/canberra 70 meter antennas), respectively. initial results indicate the delta dor pass on april 22 was unsuccessful due to ground station hardware problems but the one on april 23 was successfully performed. 2. on april 23, a cruise science memory readout (mro) was performed for the magnetometer (mag) instrument. analysis indicates the data was received 3. on april 23, the spare power relay contacts were commanded closed via the spacecraft stored sequence. these relays were commanded closed by the cds (command data subsystem) prior to launch and were again commanded closed to preclude the possibility at jupiter of the pps relays/wiring being a source of internal electrostatic charge (iesd). 4. on april 26, cruise science memory readouts (mro) were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer (euv), dust detector (dds), and magnetometer (mag) instruments. preliminary analysis indicates the data was received 5. during the period from april 26 to april 27, a navigation cycle was performed. this navigation cycle provided near-continuous acquisition of two-way doppler and ranging data during three consecutive passes of the spacecraft over dss-63, dss-14, and dss-43. 6. on april 26, real-time commands were sent to test slew the radio relay antenna (rra) in preparation for the mini-sequence slew test on april 28. the rra was slewed from approximately 3.5 degrees from stow to approximately 20.3 degrees. preliminary analysis indicated the antenna slewed to about 18 degrees which was well within the predicted range. the rra was commanded back to approximately 15.2 degrees from stow. preliminary analysis indicated the antenna reached about 15.8 degrees also well within the predicted range. the rra motor temperature was at 1 degree c at the start of the activity and had increased to 1.6 degrees c at its completion. after verifying proper rra slewing, the rra slew test mini-sequence was uplinked to the spacecraft for execution on april 28. upon successful uplink, a delayed action command (dac) was sent which will reposition the stator on may 4 to its initial pre-test position. also, a dac was sent to turn the two-way noncoherent (twnc) on april 28 prior to the start of the rra slew test mini-sequence. 7. on april 27, a no-op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase. 8. on april 28, the rra slew test executed nominally. the spacecraft under stored sequence control performed six rra slews starting at about 16 degrees from stow and going to 53 degrees, back to 25 degrees, then to 51 degrees, back to 22 degrees, then to 48 degrees and then back to 21 degrees. all of the slews were well within the predicted range. the rra motor temperature was at 2.3 degrees c at the start of the activity and had increased to 4.4 degrees c at its completion. after completion of the rra slews, real-time commands were sent to reconfigure back to the pre-test configuration. 9. the ac/dc bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant change (greater than 25 dn) throughout this period. the ac measurement reads 17 dn (3.9 volts). the dc measurement reads 134 dn (15.7 volts). these measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ac/dc special anomaly team. 10. the spacecraft status as of april 29, 1993, is as follows: a) system power margin - 75 watts b) spin configuration - dual-spin c) spin rate/sensor - 3.15rpm/star scanner d) spacecraft attitude is approximately 23 degrees off-sun (lagging) and 4 degrees off-earth (leading) e) downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/lga-1 f) general thermal control - all temperatures within acceptable range g) rpm tank pressures - all within acceptable range h) orbiter science- instruments powered on are the pws, euv, uvs, epd, mag, hic, and dds i) probe/rrh - powered off, temperatures within acceptable range j) cmd loss timer setting - 264 hours time to initiation - 203 hours gds (ground data systems): 1. the first galileo-gds test of the mgds v18.0 command system (cmd) took place april 27, 1993 with dss-61 (madrid 34 meter antenna). the test went well and demonstrated that the new command system interfaced with the new dsn (deep space network) group 5 command processor assembly (cpa). the test was successful and the next test for v18.0 cmd is scheduled for may 1, 1993 with dss-15 (goldstone 34 meter antenna). 2. the april system engineers monthly report(semr)/ground system development office (gsdo) mmr was conducted thursday, april 29. a review of current project and institutional (dsn and moso) system status was conducted. on-going cruise development plus the gsdo phase 1 and 2 delivery schedules, past months accomplishments and potential problem areas were discussed. no significant schedule changes or significant problems were reported. as of noon thursday, april 29, 1993, the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was as follows: distance from earth 187,745,300 km (1.26 au) distance from sun 296,335,800 km (1.98 au) heliocentric speed 89,100 km per hour distance from jupiter 522,015,800 km round trip light time 20 minutes, 58 seconds special topic 1. as of april 29, 1993, a total of 70259 real-time commands have been transmitted to galileo since launch. of these, 65150 were initiated in the sequence design process and 5109 initiated in the real-time command process. in the past week, 74 real time commands were transmitted: 73 were initiated in the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process. major command activities included commands to perform the initial rra slew test, uplink the rra slew test mini-sequence, dacs to reposition the stator and turn the twnc on, reset the command loss timer, and execute the rra slew test. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ron baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | jet propulsion lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ m/s 525-3684 telos | the aweto from new zealand /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| pasadena, ca 91109 | is part caterpillar and |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable. 
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<instance id="sci.space61419">
<answer instance="sci.space61419" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 also,if they did come from the oort cloud we would expect to see the same from other stars oort clouds. that's a very good point. perhaps none of the nearby stars have oort clouds? alpha-centauri is a multiple-star system; you wouldn't expect an oort cloud in it. sure about that? maybe proxima might cause problems, but at oort cloud distances ac a and ac b together look like a point source. besides, even the solar system's oort cloud is unstable over geologic time, right, and needs to be replentished from somewhere else, like the short period comets of the kupier belt? (or maybe i'm misremembering something i read or heard somewhere...) what's the nearest single-star that is likely to have a planetary system? until we're able to perform a broad-band survey of nearby stars to detect planets, we won't know enough to say whether or not a single star has planets. and we're likely to find out about the close ones first. heck, if neutron stars can have planets, anything can have planets. (or was that discovery disconfirmed?) phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61420">
<answer instance="sci.space61420" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 actually, my advisor, another classmate of mine, and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites. then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like 200 pounds of eq. well, a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it, and 1 alone weighs about 200 pounds itself. we decided against it. are you talking about a single batse component, or the whole thing? you *could* propose a batse probe; launch two or three with ion drive on various planetary trajectories... your resolution increaces the more they're spaced apart. you could probably cheaply eject them from the solar system with enough flybys and patience. things would start out slow, then slowly get better and better resolution... phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61423">
<answer instance="sci.space61423" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 original to: wats@scicom.alphacdc.com g'day wats@scicom.alphacdc.com 20 apr 93 18:17, wats@scicom.alphacdc.com wrote to all: wac> wats@scicom.alphacdc.com (bruce watson), via kralizec 3:713/602 wac> the apollo program cost something like $25 billion at a time when wac> the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now. no one would wac> take the offer. if we assume 6% inflation since 1969, that $25b would be worth about $100b gd reckon a moon mission today could cost only $10b. thats a factor of ten reduction in cost. it might be possible to reduce that number futher by using a few shortcuts ( russian rockets?). asuming it gets built, i think the delta clipper could very well achive the goal. --- golded 2.41+ * origin: vulcan's world - sydney australia (02) 635-1204 3:713/6 (3:713/635) 
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<instance id="sci.space61428">
<answer instance="sci.space61428" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 there are a number of philosophical questions that i would like to ask: 1) if we encounter a life form during our space exploration, how do we determine if we should capture it, imprison it, and then discect it? 2) if we encounter a civilization that is suffering economicly, will we expend resources from earth to help them? 3) with all of the deseases we currently have that are deadly and undetectable, what will be done to ensure that more new deadly deseases aren't brought back, or that our deseases don't destroy life elsewhere? have a day, ( ) bobo 
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<instance id="sci.space61429">
<answer instance="sci.space61429" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 u920496@daimi.aau.dk (hans erik martino hansen) writes how about a coca cola logo at the moon, easy way to target billions of arthur c. clarke was way ahead of you on this one... he wrote a short story (title?) in the 1950s describing exactly your proposal! tom o'reilly department of geology arizona state university 
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<instance id="sci.space61430">
<answer instance="sci.space61430" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the single launch core station concept. a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit. shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation. why jettison the ssmes? why not hold on to them and have a shuttle bring them down to use as spares? sold my soul to uncle sam . . . now marked down for resale. 
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<instance id="sci.space61432">
<answer instance="sci.space61432" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans. i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet. the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions. eg temperature range of 280k to 315k (where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature..) atmospheric presure ? - i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass ? - again gravity at surface is important, how much can human bodies take day after day. also how does the mass effect atmosphere. i thinking of planets between .3 and 3 times mass of the earth. i suppose density should be important as well. climate etc does not concern me, nor does axial tilt etc etc. just the above three factors and how they relate to one another. jonathan, interesting questions. some wonder whether or not the moon could have ever supported an atmosphere. i'd be interested in knowing what our geology/environmental sciences friends think. as for human tolerances, the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude (i.e. low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure) is in my opinion to the scaling of mt. everest without oxygen assistance. this was accomplished by a team of mountaineers who trained at high altitudes for quite awhile (i think a few months) and then were flown by helicopter from that training altitude to the equivalent altitude on mount everest, where they began the ascent of our planet's highest peak without oxygen tanks. this is quite a feat of physiological endurance, because if you or i tried to go to 20,000 feet and exert ourselves, we would probably pass out, get altitude sick, and could even die from cerebral edema. so this is the limit of low pressure. high pressure situations would be limited by the duration of time which it takes to slowly acclimate to a higher pressure. skin divers would know alot about high pressure situations and could tell you about how they safely make deep dives without getting the bends. some military experiments have put people under several atmospheres of pressure (not sure what the high limit was because the papers aren't in front of me). usually at a certain point, the nitrogen in the air becomes toxic to the body and you start acting idiotic. divers call this nitrogen narcosis. those afflicted can do very dangerous and irrational things, like taking off a diving mask and oxygen tank in order to talk to fish at 100 feet under water. (hope any diving folk can elaborate on this matter, as i am not a diving expert). mars cannot support human life without pressurization because the atmosphere is too thin (1/100 th our earth's atmospheric density). in addition, the mars atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide. basically, you would need a pressure suit there, or you'd die from the low pressure. interesting huh? khayash@hsc.usc.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61433">
<answer instance="sci.space61433" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the other week i saw a tv program about the american space industry and nasa. it said that in the 60's they developed a rocket that used ions or nuclear particles for propolsion. the government however, didn't give them $1billion for the developement of a full scale rocket. did anybody see this program? if not, has anybody heard of the particle propolsion system? thanx. 8-) glen balmer... 
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<instance id="sci.space61435">
<answer instance="sci.space61435" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this file and other text and image files from jpl missions are available from the jpl info public access computer site, reachable by internet via anonymous ftp to pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2); or by dialup modem to +1 (818) 354-1333, up to 9600 bits per second, parameters n-8-1. our solar system at a glance information summary pms 010-a (jpl) june 1991 jpl 410-34-1 6/91 national aeronautics and space administration jet propulsion laboratory california institue of technology pasadena, california for a printed copy of this publication contact the public mail office at the nasa center in your geographic region. from our small world we have gazed upon the cosmic ocean for untold thousands of years. ancient astronomers observed points of light that appeared to move among the stars. they called these objects planets, meaning wanderers, and named them after roman deities -- jupiter, king of the gods; mars, the god of war; mercury, messenger of the gods; venus, the god of love and beauty, and saturn, father of jupiter and god of agriculture. the stargazers also observed comets with sparkling tails, and meteors or shooting stars apparently falling from the sky. science flourished during the european renaissance. fundamental physical laws governing planetary motion were discovered, and the orbits of the planets around the sun were calculated. in the 17th century, astronomers pointed a new device called the telescope at the heavens and made startling but the years since 1959 have amounted to a golden age of solar system exploration. advancements in rocketry after world war ii enabled our machines to break the grip of earth's gravity and travel to the moon and to other planets. the united states has sent automated spacecraft, then human-crewed expeditions, to explore the moon. our automated machines have orbited and landed on venus and mars; explored the sun's environment; observed comets, and made close-range surveys while flying past mercury, jupiter, saturn, uranus and neptune. these travelers brought a quantum leap in our knowledge and understanding of the solar system. through the electronic sight and other "senses" of our automated spacecraft, color and complexion have been given to worlds that for centuries appeared to earth-bound eyes as fuzzy disks or indistinct points of light. and dozens of previously unknown objects have been discovered. future historians will likely view these pioneering flights through the solar system as some of the most remarkable achievements of the 20th century. automated spacecraft the national aeronautics and space administration's (nasa's) automated spacecraft for solar system exploration come in many shapes and sizes. while they are designed to fulfill separate and specific mission objectives, the craft share much in common. each spacecraft consists of various scientific instruments selected for a particular mission, supported by basic subsystems for electrical power, trajectory and orientation control, as well as for processing data and communicating with earth. electrical power is required to operate the spacecraft instruments and systems. nasa uses both solar energy from arrays of photovoltaic cells and small nuclear generators to power its solar system missions. rechargeable batteries are employed for backup and supplemental power. imagine that a spacecraft has successfully journeyed millions of miles through space to fly but one time near a planet, only to have its cameras and other sensing instruments pointed the wrong way as it speeds past the target! to help prevent such a mishap, a subsystem of small thrusters is used to control spacecraft. the thrusters are linked with devices that maintain a constant gaze at selected stars. just as earth's early seafarers used the stars to navigate the oceans, spacecraft use stars to maintain their bearings in space. with the subsystem locked onto fixed points of reference, flight controllers can keep a spacecraft's scientific instruments pointed at the target body and the craft's communications antennas pointed toward earth. the thrusters can also be used to fine-tune the flight path and speed of the spacecraft to ensure that a target body is encountered at the planned distance and on the proper trajectory. between 1959 and 1971, nasa spacecraft were dispatched to study the moon and the solar environment; they also scanned the inner planets other than earth -- mercury, venus and mars. these three worlds, and our own, are known as the terrestrial planets because they share a solid-rock composition. for the early planetary reconnaissance missions, nasa employed a highly successful series of spacecraft called the mariners. their flights helped shape the planning of later missions. between 1962 and 1975, seven mariner missions conducted the first surveys of our planetary neighbors in space. all of the mariners used solar panels as their primary power source. the first and the final versions of the spacecraft had two wings covered with photovoltaic cells. other mariners were equipped with four solar panels extending from their octagonal although the mariners ranged from the mariner 2 venus spacecraft, weighing in at 203 kilograms (447 pounds), to the mariner 9 mars orbiter, weighing in at 974 kilograms (2,147 pounds), their basic design remained quite similar throughout the program. the mariner 5 venus spacecraft, for example, had originally been a backup for the mariner 4 mars flyby. the mariner 10 spacecraft sent to venus and mercury used components left over from the mariner 9 mars orbiter program. in 1972, nasa launched pioneer 10, a jupiter spacecraft. interest was shifting to four of the outer planets -- jupiter, saturn, uranus and neptune -- giant balls of dense gas quite different from the terrestrial worlds we had already surveyed. four nasa spacecraft in all -- two pioneers and two voyagers -- were sent in the 1970s to tour the outer regions of our solar system. because of the distances involved, these travelers took anywhere from 20 months to 12 years to reach their destinations. barring faster spacecraft, they will eventually become the first human artifacts to journey to distant stars. because the sun's light becomes so faint in the outer solar system, these travelers do not use solar power but instead operate on electricity generated by heat from the decay of radioisotopes. nasa also developed highly specialized spacecraft to revisit our neighbors mars and venus in the middle and late 1970s. twin viking landers were equipped to serve as seismic and weather stations and as biology laboratories. two advanced orbiters -- descendants of the mariner craft -- carried the viking landers from earth and then studied martian features from above. two drum-shaped pioneer spacecraft visited venus in 1978. the pioneer venus orbiter was equipped with a radar instrument that allowed it to "see" through the planet's dense cloud cover to study surface features. the pioneer venus multiprobe carried four probes that were dropped through the clouds. the probes and the main body -- all of which contained scientific instruments -- radioed information about the planet's atmosphere during their descent toward the surface. a new generation of automated spacecraft -- including magellan, galileo, ulysses, mars observer, the comet rendezvous/asteroid flyby (craf) and cassini -- is being developed and sent out into the solar system to make detailed examinations that will increase our understanding of our neighborhood and our own planet. the sun a discussion of the objects in the solar system must start with the sun. the sun dwarfs the other bodies, representing approximately 99.86 percent of all the mass in the solar system; all of the planets, moons, asteroids, comets, dust and gas add up to only about 0.14 percent. this 0.14 percent represents the material left over from the sun's formation. one hundred and nine earths would be required to fit across the sun's disk, and its interior could hold over 1.3 million earths. as a star, the sun generates energy through the process of fusion. the temperature at the sun's core is 15 million degrees celsius (27 million degrees fahrenheit), and the pressure there is 340 billion times earth's air pressure at sea level. the sun's surface temperature of 5,500 degrees celsius (10,000 degrees fahrenheit) seems almost chilly compared to its core-temperature. at the solar core, hydrogen can fuse into helium, producing energy. the sun also produces a strong magnetic field and streams of charged particles, both extending far beyond the planets. the sun appears to have been active for 4.6 billion years and has enough fuel to go on for another five billion years or so. at the end of its life, the sun will start to fuse helium into heavier elements and begin to swell up, ultimately growing so large that it will swallow earth. after a billion years as a "red giant," it will suddenly collapse into a "white dwarf" -- the final end product of a star like ours. it may take a trillion years to cool off completely. many spacecraft have explored the sun's environment, but none have gotten any closer to its surface than approximately two-thirds of the distance from earth to the sun. pioneers 5-11, the pioneer venus orbiter, voyagers 1 and 2 and other spacecraft have all sampled the solar environment. the ulysses spacecraft, launched on october 6, 1990, is a joint solar mission of nasa and the european space agency. after using jupiter's gravity to change its trajectory, ulysses will fly over the sun's polar regions during 1994 and 1995 and will perform a wide range of studies using nine onboard scientific instruments. we are fortunate that the sun is exactly the way it is. if it were different in almost any way, life would almost certainly never have developed on earth. obtaining the first close-up views of mercury was the primary objective of the mariner 10 spacecraft, launched on november 3, 1973, from kennedy space center in florida. after a journey of nearly five months, which included a flyby of venus, the spacecraft passed within 703 kilometers (437 miles) of the solar system's innermost planet on march 29, 1974. until mariner 10, little was known about mercury. even the best telescopic views from earth showed mercury as an indistinct object lacking any surface detail. the planet is so close to the sun that it is usually lost in solar glare. when the planet is visible on earth's horizon just after sunset or before dawn, it is obscured by the haze and dust in our atmosphere. only radar telescopes gave any hint of mercury's surface conditions prior to the voyage of mariner 10. the photographs mariner 10 radioed back to earth revealed an ancient, heavily cratered surface, closely resembling our own moon. the pictures also showed huge cliffs crisscrossing the planet. these apparently were created when mercury's interior cooled and shrank, buckling the planet's crust. the cliffs are as high as 3 kilometers (2 miles) and as long as 500 kilometers (310 miles). instruments on mariner 10 discovered that mercury has a weak magnetic field and a trace of atmosphere -- a trillionth the density of earth's atmosphere and composed chiefly of argon, neon and helium. when the planet's orbit takes it closest to the sun, surface temperatures range from 467 degrees celsius (872 degrees fahrenheit) on mercury's sunlit side to -183 degrees celsius (-298 degrees fahrenheit) on the dark side. this range in surface temperature -- 650 degrees celsius (1,170 degrees fahrenheit) -- is the largest for a single body in the solar system. mercury literally bakes and freezes at the same time. days and nights are long on mercury. the combination of a slow rotation relative to the stars (59 earth days) and a rapid revolution around the sun (88 earth days) means that one mercury solar day takes 176 earth days or two mercury years -- the time it takes the innermost planet to complete two orbits around the sun! mercury appears to have a crust of light silicate rock like that of earth. scientists believe mercury has a heavy iron-rich core making up slightly less than half of its volume. that would make mercury's core larger, proportionally, than the moon's core or those of any of the planets. after the initial mercury encounter, mariner 10 made two additional flybys -- on september 21, 1974, and march 16, 1975 -- before control gas used to orient the spacecraft was exhausted and the mission was concluded. each flyby took place at the same local mercury time when the identical half of the planet was illuminated; as a result, we still have not seen one-half of the planet's surface. veiled by dense cloud cover, venus -- our nearest planetary neighbor -- was the first planet to be explored. the mariner 2 spacecraft, launched on august 27, 1962, was the first of more than a dozen successful american and soviet missions to study the mysterious planet. as spacecraft flew by or orbited venus, plunged into the atmosphere or gently landed on venus' surface, romantic myths and speculations about our neighbor were laid to on december 14, 1962, mariner 2 passed within 34,839 kilometers (21,648 miles) of venus and became the first spacecraft to scan another planet; onboard instruments measured venus for 42 minutes. mariner 5, launched in june 1967, flew much closer to the planet. passing within 4,094 kilometers (2,544 miles) of venus on the second american flyby, mariner 5's instruments measured the planet's magnetic field, ionosphere, radiation belts and temperatures. on its way to mercury, mariner 10 flew by venus and transmitted ultraviolet pictures to earth showing cloud circulation patterns in the venusian atmosphere. in the spring and summer of 1978, two spacecraft were launched to further unravel the mysteries of venus. on december 4 of the same year, the pioneer venus orbiter became the first spacecraft placed in orbit around the planet. five days later, the five separate components making up the second spacecraft -- the pioneer venus multiprobe -- entered the venusian atmosphere at different locations above the planet. the four small, independent probes and the main body radioed atmospheric data back to earth during their descent toward the surface. although designed to examine the atmosphere, one of the probes survived its impact with the surface and continued to transmit data for another hour. venus resembles earth in size, physical composition and density more closely than any other known planet. however, spacecraft have discovered significant differences as well. for example, venus' rotation (west to east) is retrograde (backward) compared to the east-to-west spin of earth and most of the other approximately 96.5 percent of venus' atmosphere (95 times as dense as earth's) is carbon dioxide. the principal constituent of earth's atmosphere is nitrogen. venus' atmosphere acts like a greenhouse, permitting solar radiation to reach the surface but trapping the heat that would ordinarily be radiated back into space. as a result, the planet's average surface temperature is 482 degrees celsius (900 degrees fahrenheit), hot enough to melt a radio altimeter on the pioneer venus orbiter provided the first means of seeing through the planet's dense cloud cover and determining surface features over almost the entire planet. nasa's magellan spacecraft, launched on may 5, 1989, has been in orbit around venus since august 10, 1990. the spacecraft uses radar-mapping techniques to provide ultrahigh-resolution images of the surface. magellan has revealed a landscape dominated by volcanic features, faults and impact craters. huge areas of the surface show evidence of multiple periods of lava flooding with flows lying on top of previous ones. an elevated region named ishtar terra is a lava-filled basin as large as the united states. at one end of this plateau sits maxwell montes, a mountain the size of mount everest. scarring the mountain's flank is a 100-kilometer (62-mile) wide, 2.5-kilometer (1.5-mile) deep impact crater named cleopatra. (almost all features on venus are named for women; maxwell montes, alpha regio and beta regio are the exceptions.) craters survive on venus for perhaps 400 million years because there is no water and very little wind erosion. extensive fault-line networks cover the planet, probably the result of the same crustal flexing that produces plate tectonics on earth. but on venus the surface temperature is sufficient to weaken the rock, which cracks just about everywhere, preventing the formation of major plates and large earthquake faults like the san andreas fault in california. venus' predominant weather pattern is a high-altitude, high-speed circulation of clouds that contain sulfuric acid. at speeds reaching as high as 360 kilometers (225 miles) per hour, the clouds circle the planet in only four earth days. the circulation is in the same direction -- west to east -- as venus' slow rotation of 243 earth days, whereas earth's winds blow in both directions -- west to east and east to west -- in six alternating bands. venus' atmosphere serves as a simplified laboratory for the study of our weather. as viewed from space, our world's distinguishing characteristics are its blue waters, brown and green land masses and white clouds. we are enveloped by an ocean of air consisting of 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen and 1 percent other constituents. the only planet in the solar system known to harbor life, earth orbits the sun at an average distance of 150 million kilometers (93 million miles). earth is the third planet from the sun and the fifth largest in the solar system, with a diameter just a few hundred kilometers larger than that of venus. our planet's rapid spin and molten nickel-iron core give rise to an extensive magnetic field, which, along with the atmosphere, shields us from nearly all of the harmful radiation coming from the sun and other stars. earth's atmosphere protects us from meteors as well, most of which burn up before they can strike the surface. active geological processes have left no evidence of the pelting earth almost certainly received soon after it formed -- about 4.6 billion years ago. along with the other newly formed planets, it was showered by space debris in the early days of the solar system. from our journeys into space, we have learned much about our home planet. the first american satellite -- explorer 1 -- was launched from cape canaveral in florida on january 31, 1958, and discovered an intense radiation zone, now called the van allen radiation belts, surrounding earth. since then, other research satellites have revealed that our planet's magnetic field is distorted into a tear-drop shape by the solar wind -- the stream of charged particles continuously ejected from the sun. we've learned that the magnetic field does not fade off into space but has definite boundaries. and we now know that our wispy upper atmosphere, once believed calm and uneventful, seethes with activity -- swelling by day and contracting by night. affected by changes in solar activity, the upper atmosphere contributes to weather and climate on earth. besides affecting earth's weather, solar activity gives rise to a dramatic visual phenomenon in our atmosphere. when charged particles from the solar wind become trapped in earth's magnetic field, they collide with air molecules above our planet's magnetic poles. these air molecules then begin to glow and are known as the auroras or the northern and southern lights. satellites about 35,789 kilometers (22,238 miles) out in space play a major role in daily local weather forecasting. these watchful electronic eyes warn us of dangerous storms. continuous global monitoring provides a vast amount of useful data and contributes to a better understanding of earth's complex weather from their unique vantage points, satellites can survey earth's oceans, land use and resources, and monitor the planet's health. these eyes in space have saved countless lives, provided tremendous conveniences and shown us that we may be altering our planet in dangerous ways. the moon the moon is earth's single natural satellite. the first human footsteps on an alien world were made by american astronauts on the dusty surface of our airless, lifeless companion. in preparation for the human-crewed apollo expeditions, nasa dispatched the automated ranger, surveyor and lunar orbiter spacecraft to study the moon between 1964 and 1968. nasa's apollo program left a large legacy of lunar materials and data. six two-astronaut crews landed on and explored the lunar surface between 1969 and 1972, carrying back a collection of rocks and soil weighing a total of 382 kilograms (842 pounds) and consisting of more than 2,000 separate samples. from this material and other studies, scientists have constructed a history of the moon that includes its infancy. rocks collected from the lunar highlands date to about 4.0-4.3 billion years old. the first few million years of the moon's existence were so violent that few traces of this period remain. as a molten outer layer gradually cooled and solidified into different kinds of rock, the moon was bombarded by huge asteroids and smaller objects. some of the asteroids were as large as rhode island or delaware, and their collisions with the moon created basins hundreds of kilometers across. this catastrophic bombardment tapered off approximately four billion years ago, leaving the lunar highlands covered with huge, overlapping craters and a deep layer of shattered and broken rock. heat produced by the decay of radioactive elements began to melt the interior of the moon at depths of about 200 kilometers (125 miles) below the surface. then, for the next 700 million years -- from about 3.8 to 3.1 billion years ago -- lava rose from inside the moon. the lava gradually spread out over the surface, flooding the large impact basins to form the dark areas that galileo galilei, an astronomer of the italian renaissance, called maria, meaning seas. as far as we can tell, there has been no significant volcanic activity on the moon for more than three billion years. since then, the lunar surface has been altered only by micrometeorites, by the atomic particles from the sun and stars, by the rare impacts of large meteorites and by spacecraft and astronauts. if our astronauts had landed on the moon a billion years ago, they would have seen a landscape very similar to the one today. thousands of years from now, the footsteps left by the apollo crews will remain sharp and clear. the origin of the moon is still a mystery. four theories attempt an explanation: the moon formed near earth as a separate body; it was torn from earth; it formed somewhere else and was captured by our planet's gravity, or it was the result of a collision between earth and an asteroid about the size of mars. the last theory has some good support but is far from certain. of all the planets, mars has long been considered the solar system's prime candidate for harboring extraterrestrial life. astronomers studying the red planet through telescopes saw what appeared to be straight lines crisscrossing its surface. these observations -- later determined to be optical illusions -- led to the popular notion that intelligent beings had constructed a system of irrigation canals on the planet. in 1938, when orson welles broadcast a radio drama based on the science fiction classic war of the worlds by h.g. wells, enough people believed in the tale of invading martians to cause a near panic. another reason for scientists to expect life on mars had to do with the apparent seasonal color changes on the planet's surface. this phenomenon led to speculation that conditions might support a bloom of martian vegetation during the warmer months and cause plant life to become dormant during colder periods. so far, six american missions to mars have been carried out. four mariner spacecraft -- three flying by the planet and one placed into martian orbit -- surveyed the planet extensively before the viking orbiters and landers arrived. mariner 4, launched in late 1964, flew past mars on july 14, 1965, coming within 9,846 kilometers (6,118 miles) of the surface. transmitting to earth 22 close-up pictures of the planet, the spacecraft found many craters and naturally occurring channels but no evidence of artificial canals or flowing water. mariners 6 and 7 followed with their flybys during the summer of 1969 and returned 201 pictures. mariners 4, 6 and 7 showed a diversity of surface conditions as well as a thin, cold, dry atmosphere of carbon dioxide. on may 30, 1971, the mariner 9 orbiter was launched on a mission to make a year-long study of the martian surface. the spacecraft arrived five and a half months after lift-off, only to find mars in the midst of a planet-wide dust storm that made surface photography impossible for several weeks. but after the storm cleared, mariner 9 began returning the first of 7,329 pictures; these revealed previously unknown martian features, including evidence that large amounts of water once flowed across the surface, etching river valleys and flood plains. in august and september 1975, the viking 1 and 2 spacecraft -- each consisting of an orbiter and a lander -- lifted off from kennedy space center. the mission was designed to answer several questions about the red planet, including, is there life there? nobody expected the spacecraft to spot martian cities, but it was hoped that the biology experiments on the viking landers would at least find evidence of primitive life -- past or present. viking lander 1 became the first spacecraft to successfully touch down on another planet when it landed on july 20, 1976, while the united states was celebrating its bicentennial. photos sent back from the chryse planitia ("plains of gold") showed a bleak, rusty-red landscape. panoramic images returned by the lander revealed a rolling plain, littered with rocks and marked by rippled sand dunes. fine red dust from the martian soil gives the sky a salmon hue. when viking lander 2 touched down on utopia planitia on september 3, 1976, it viewed a more rolling landscape than the one seen by its predecessor -- one without visible the results sent back by the laboratory on each viking lander were inconclusive. small samples of the red martian soil were tested in three different experiments designed to detect biological processes. while some of the test results seemed to indicate biological activity, later analysis confirmed that this activity was inorganic in nature and related to the planet's soil chemistry. is there life on mars? no one knows for sure, but the viking mission found no evidence that organic molecules exist the viking landers became weather stations, recording wind velocity and direction as well as atmospheric temperature and pressure. few weather changes were observed. the highest temperature recorded by either craft was -14 degrees celsius (7 degrees fahrenheit) at the viking lander 1 site in midsummer. the lowest temperature, -120 degrees celsius (-184 degrees fahrenheit), was recorded at the more northerly viking lander 2 site during winter. near-hurricane wind speeds were measured at the two martian weather stations during global dust storms, but because the atmosphere is so thin, wind force is minimal. viking lander 2 photographed light patches of frost -- probably water-ice -- during its second winter on the planet. the martian atmosphere, like that of venus, is primarily carbon dioxide. nitrogen and oxygen are present only in small percentages. martian air contains only about 1/1,000 as much water as our air, but even this small amount can condense out, forming clouds that ride high in the atmosphere or swirl around the slopes of towering volcanoes. local patches of early morning fog can form in valleys. there is evidence that in the past a denser martian atmosphere may have allowed water to flow on the planet. physical features closely resembling shorelines, gorges, riverbeds and islands suggest that great rivers once marked the planet. mars has two moons, phobos and deimos. they are small and irregularly shaped and possess ancient, cratered surfaces. it is possible the moons were originally asteroids that ventured too close to mars and were captured by its gravity. the viking orbiters and landers exceeded by large margins their design lifetimes of 120 and 90 days, respectively. the first to fail was viking orbiter 2, which stopped operating on july 24, 1978, when a leak depleted its attitude-control gas. viking lander 2 operated until april 12, 1980, when it was shut down because of battery degeneration. viking orbiter 1 quit on august 7, 1980, when the last of its attitude-control gas was used up. viking lander 1 ceased functioning on november 13, 1983. despite the inconclusive results of the viking biology experiments, we know more about mars than any other planet except earth. nasa's mars observer spacecraft, to be launched in september 1992, will expand our knowledge of the martian environment and lead to human exploration of the red planet. the solar system has a large number of rocky and metallic objects that are in orbit around the sun but are too small to be considered full-fledged planets. these objects are known as asteroids or minor planets. most, but not all, are found in a band or belt between the orbits of mars and jupiter. some have orbits that cross earth's path, and there is evidence that earth has been hit by asteroids in the past. one of the least eroded, best preserved examples is the barringer meteor crater near winslow, arizona. asteroids are material left over from the formation of the solar system. one theory suggests that they are the remains of a planet that was destroyed in a massive collision long ago. more likely, asteroids are material that never coalesced into a planet. in fact, if the estimated total mass of all asteroids was gathered into a single object, the object would be only about 1,500 kilometers (932 miles) across -- less than half the diameter of our moon. thousands of asteroids have been identified from earth. it is estimated that 100,000 are bright enough to eventually be photographed through earth-based telescopes. much of our understanding about asteroids comes from examining pieces of space debris that fall to the surface of earth. asteroids that are on a collision course with earth are called meteoroids. when a meteoroid strikes our atmosphere at high velocity, friction causes this chunk of space matter to incinerate in a streak of light known as a meteor. if the meteoroid does not burn up completely, what's left strikes earth's surface and is called a meteorite. one of the best places to look for meteorites is the ice cap of antarctica. of all the meteorites examined, 92.8 percent are composed of silicate (stone), and 5.7 percent are composed of iron and nickel; the rest are a mixture of the three materials. stony meteorites are the hardest to identify since they look very much like terrestrial rocks. since asteroids are material from the very early solar system, scientists are interested in their composition. spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found that the belt is really quite empty and that asteroids are separated by very large distances. current and future missions will fly by selected asteroids for closer examination. the galileo orbiter, launched by nasa in october 1989, will investigate main-belt asteroids on its way to jupiter. the comet rendezvous/asteroid flyby (craf) and cassini missions will also study these far-flung objects. scheduled for launch in the latter part of the 1990s, the craf and cassini missions are a collaborative project of nasa, the european space agency and the federal space agencies of germany and italy, as well as the united states air force and the department of energy. one day, space factories will mine the asteroids for raw beyond mars and the asteroid belt, in the outer regions of our solar system, lie the giant planets of jupiter, saturn, uranus and neptune. in 1972, nasa dispatched the first of four spacecraft slated to conduct the initial surveys of these colossal worlds of gas and their moons of ice and rock. jupiter was the first port of call. pioneer 10, which lifted off from kennedy space center in march 1972, was the first spacecraft to penetrate the asteroid belt and travel to the outer regions of the solar system. in december 1973, it returned the first close-up images of jupiter, flying within 132,252 kilometers (82,178 miles) of the planet's banded cloud tops. pioneer 11 followed a year later. voyagers 1 and 2 were launched in the summer of 1977 and returned spectacular photographs of jupiter and its family of satellites during flybys in 1979. these travelers found jupiter to be a whirling ball of liquid hydrogen and helium, topped with a colorful atmosphere composed mostly of gaseous hydrogen and helium. ammonia ice crystals form white jovian clouds. sulfur compounds (and perhaps phosphorus) may produce the brown and orange hues that characterize jupiter's atmosphere. it is likely that methane, ammonia, water and other gases react to form organic molecules in the regions between the planet's frigid cloud tops and the warmer hydrogen ocean lying below. because of jupiter's atmospheric dynamics, however, these organic compounds -- if they exist -- are probably short-lived. the great red spot has been observed for centuries through telescopes on earth. this hurricane-like storm in jupiter's atmosphere is more than twice the size of our planet. as a high-pressure region, the great red spot spins in a direction opposite to that of low-pressure storms on jupiter; it is surrounded by swirling currents that rotate around the spot and are sometimes consumed by it. the great red spot might be a million years old. our spacecraft detected lightning in jupiter's upper atmosphere and observed auroral emissions similar to earth's northern lights at the jovian polar regions. voyager 1 returned the first images of a faint, narrow ring encircling jupiter. largest of the solar system's planets, jupiter rotates at a dizzying pace -- once every 9 hours 55 minutes 30 seconds. the massive planet takes almost 12 earth years to complete a journey around the sun. with 16 known moons, jupiter is something of a miniature solar system. a new mission to jupiter -- the galileo project -- is under way. after a six- year cruise that takes the galileo orbiter once past venus, twice past earth and the moon and once past two asteroids, the spacecraft will drop an atmospheric probe into jupiter's cloud layers and relay data back to earth. the galileo orbiter will spend two years circling the planet and flying close to jupiter's large moons, exploring in detail what the two pioneers and two voyagers revealed. galilean satellites in 1610, galileo galilei aimed his telescope at jupiter and spotted four points of light orbiting the planet. for the first time, humans had seen the moons of another world. in honor of their discoverer, these four bodies would become known as the galilean satellites or moons. but galileo might have happily traded this honor for one look at the dazzling photographs returned by the voyager spacecraft as they flew past these planet-sized satellites. one of the most remarkable findings of the voyager mission was the presence of active volcanoes on the galilean moon io. volcanic eruptions had never before been observed on a world other than earth. the voyager cameras identified at least nine active volcanoes on io, with plumes of ejected material extending as far as 280 kilometers (175 miles) above the moon's surface. io's pizza-colored terrain, marked by orange and yellow hues, is probably the result of sulfur-rich materials brought to the surface by volcanic activity. volcanic activity on this satellite is the result of tidal flexing caused by the gravitational tug-of-war between io, jupiter and the other three galilean moons. europa, approximately the same size as our moon, is the brightest galilean satellite. the moon's surface displays a complex array of streaks, indicating the crust has been fractured. caught in a gravitational tug-of-war like io, europa has been heated enough to cause its interior ice to melt -- apparently producing a liquid-water ocean. this ocean is covered by an ice crust that has formed where water is exposed to the cold of space. europa's core is made of rock that sank to its like europa, the other two galilean moons -- ganymede and callisto -- are worlds of ice and rock. ganymede is the largest satellite in the solar system -- larger than the planets mercury and pluto. the satellite is composed of about 50 percent water or ice and the rest rock. ganymede's surface has areas of different brightness, indicating that, in the past, material oozed out of the moon's interior and was deposited at various locations on the callisto, only slightly smaller than ganymede, has the lowest density of any galilean satellite, suggesting that large amounts of water are part of its composition. callisto is the most heavily cratered object in the solar system; no activity during its history has erased old craters except more impacts. detailed studies of all the galilean satellites will be performed by the galileo orbiter. no planet in the solar system is adorned like saturn. its exquisite ring system is unrivaled. like jupiter, saturn is composed mostly of hydrogen. but in contrast to the vivid colors and wild turbulence found in jovian clouds, saturn's atmosphere has a more subtle, butterscotch hue, and its markings are muted by high-altitude haze. given saturn's somewhat placid-looking appearance, scientists were surprised at the high-velocity equatorial jet stream that blows some 1,770 kilometers (1,100 miles) per hour. three american spacecraft have visited saturn. pioneer 11 sped by the planet and its moon titan in september 1979, returning the first close-up images. voyager 1 followed in november 1980, sending back breathtaking photographs that revealed for the first time the complexities of saturn's ring system and moons. voyager 2 flew by the planet and its moons in august 1981. the rings are composed of countless low-density particles orbiting individually around saturn's equator at progressive distances from the cloud tops. analysis of spacecraft radio waves passing through the rings showed that the particles vary widely in size, ranging from dust to house-sized boulders. the rings are bright because they are mostly ice and frosted rock. the rings might have resulted when a moon or a passing body ventured too close to saturn. the unlucky object would have been torn apart by great tidal forces on its surface and in its interior. or the object may not have been fully formed to begin with and disintegrated under the influence of saturn's gravity. a third possibility is that the object was shattered by collisions with larger objects orbiting the planet. unable either to form into a moon or to drift away from each other, individual ring particles appear to be held in place by the gravitational pull of saturn and its satellites. these complex gravitational interactions form the thousands of ringlets that make up the major rings. radio emissions quite similar to the static heard on an am car radio during an electrical storm were detected by the voyager spacecraft. these emissions are typical of lightning but are believed to be coming from saturn's ring system rather than its atmosphere, where no lightning was observed. as they had at jupiter, the voyagers saw a version of earth's auroras near saturn's poles. the voyagers discovered new moons and found several satellites that share the same orbit. we learned that some moons shepherd ring particles, maintaining saturn's rings and the gaps in the rings. saturn's 18th moon was discovered in 1990 from images taken by voyager 2 in 1981. voyager 1 determined that titan has a nitrogen-based atmosphere with methane and argon -- one more like earth's in composition than the carbon dioxide atmospheres of mars and venus. titan's surface temperature of -179 degrees celsius (-290 degrees fahrenheit) implies that there might be water-ice islands rising above oceans of ethane-methane liquid or sludge. unfortunately, voyager's cameras could not penetrate the moon's dense clouds. continuing photochemistry from solar radiation may be converting titan's methane to ethane, acetylene and -- in combination with nitrogen -- hydrogen cyanide. the latter compound is a building block of amino acids. these conditions may be similar to the atmospheric conditions of primeval earth between three and four billion years ago. however, titan's atmospheric temperature is believed to be too low to permit progress beyond this stage of organic chemistry. the exploration of saturn will continue with the cassini mission. the cassini spacecraft will orbit the planet and will also deploy a probe called huygens, which will be dropped into titan's atmosphere and fall to the surface. cassini will use the probe as well as radar to peer through titan's clouds and will spend years examining the saturnian system. in january 1986, four and a half years after visiting saturn, voyager 2 completed the first close-up survey of the uranian system. the brief flyby revealed more information about uranus and its retinue of icy moons than had been gleaned from ground observations since the planet's discovery over two centuries ago by the english astronomer william herschel. uranus, third largest of the planets, is an oddball of the solar system. unlike the other planets (with the exception of pluto), this giant lies tipped on its side with its north and south poles alternately facing the sun during an 84-year swing around the solar system. during voyager 2's flyby, the south pole faced the sun. uranus might have been knocked over when an earth-sized object collided with it early in the life of the solar system. voyager 2 found that uranus' magnetic field does not follow the usual north-south axis found on the other planets. instead, the field is tilted 60 degrees and offset from the planet's center, a phenomenon that on earth would be like having one magnetic pole in new york city and the other in the city of djakarta, on the island of java in indonesia. uranus' atmosphere consists mainly of hydrogen, with some 12 percent helium and small amounts of ammonia, methane and water vapor. the planet's blue color occurs because methane in its atmosphere absorbs all other colors. wind speeds range up to 580 kilometers (360 miles) per hour, and temperatures near the cloud tops average -221 degrees celsius (-366 degrees fahrenheit). uranus' sunlit south pole is shrouded in a kind of photochemical "smog" believed to be a combination of acetylene, ethane and other sunlight-generated chemicals. surrounding the planet's atmosphere and extending thousands of kilometers into space is a mysterious ultraviolet sheen known as "electroglow." approximately 8,000 kilometers (5,000 miles) below uranus' cloud tops, there is thought to be a scalding ocean of water and dissolved ammonia some 10,000 kilometers (6,200 miles) deep. beneath this ocean is an earth-sized core of heavier materials. voyager 2 discovered 10 new moons, 16-169 kilometers (10-105 miles) in diameter, orbiting uranus. the five previously known -- miranda, ariel, umbriel, titania and oberon -- range in size from 520 to 1,610 kilometers (323 to 1,000 miles) across. representing a geological showcase, these five moons are half-ice, half-rock spheres that are cold and dark and show evidence of past activity, including faulting and ice flows. the most remarkable of uranus' moons is miranda. its surface features high cliffs as well as canyons, crater-pocked plains and winding valleys. the sharp variations in terrain suggest that, after the moon formed, it was smashed apart by a collision with another body -- an event not unusual in our solar system, which contains many objects that have impact craters or are fragments from large impacts. what is extraordinary is that miranda apparently reformed with some of the material that had been in its interior exposed on its surface. uranus was thought to have nine dark rings; voyager 2 imaged 11. in contrast to saturn's rings, which are composed of bright particles, uranus' rings are primarily made up of dark, boulder-sized chunks. voyager 2 completed its 12-year tour of the solar system with an investigation of neptune and the planet's moons. on august 25, 1989, the spacecraft swept to within 4,850 kilometers (3,010 miles) of neptune and then flew on to the moon triton. during the neptune encounter it became clear that the planet's atmosphere was more active than uranus'. voyager 2 observed the great dark spot, a circular storm the size of earth, in neptune's atmosphere. resembling jupiter's great red spot, the storm spins counterclockwise and moves westward at almost 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) per hour. voyager 2 also noted a smaller dark spot and a fast-moving cloud dubbed the "scooter," as well as high-altitude clouds over the main hydrogen and helium cloud deck. the highest wind speeds of any planet were observed, up to 2,400 kilometers (1,500 miles) per like the other giant planets, neptune has a gaseous hydrogen and helium upper layer over a liquid interior. the planet's core contains a higher percentage of rock and metal than those of the other gas giants. neptune's distinctive blue appearance, like uranus' blue color, is due to atmospheric methane. neptune's magnetic field is tilted relative to the planet's spin axis and is not centered at the core. this phenomenon is similar to uranus' magnetic field and suggests that the fields of the two giants are being generated in an area above the cores, where the pressure is so great that liquid hydrogen assumes the electrical properties of a metal. earth's magnetic field, on the other hand, is produced by its spinning metallic core and is only slightly tilted and offset relative to its center. voyager 2 also shed light on the mystery of neptune's rings. observations from earth indicated that there were arcs of material in orbit around the giant planet. it was not clear how neptune could have arcs and how these could be kept from spreading out into even, unclumped rings. voyager 2 detected these arcs, but they were, in fact, part of thin, complete rings. a number of small moons could explain the arcs, but such bodies were not spotted. astronomers had identified the neptunian moons triton in 1846 and nereid in 1949. voyager 2 found six more. one of the new moons -- proteus -- is actually larger than nereid, but since proteus orbits close to neptune, it was lost in the planet's glare for observers on earth. triton circles neptune in a retrograde orbit in under six days. tidal forces on triton are causing it to spiral slowly towards the planet. in 10 to 100 million years (a short time in astronomical terms), the moon will be so close that neptunian gravity will tear it apart, forming a spectacular ring to accompany the planet's modest current rings. triton's landscape is as strange and unexpected as those of io and miranda. the moon has more rock than its counterparts at saturn and uranus. triton's mantle is probably composed of water-ice, but the moon's crust is a thin veneer of nitrogen and methane. the moon shows two dramatically different types of terrain: the so-called "cantaloupe" terrain and a receding ice dark streaks appear on the ice cap. these streaks are the fallout from geyser-like volcanic vents that shoot nitrogen gas and dark, fine-grained particles to heights of 2 to 8 kilometers (1 to 5 miles). triton's thin atmosphere, only 1/70,000th as thick as earth's, has winds that carry the dark particles and deposit them as streaks on the ice cap -- the coldest surface yet found in the solar system (-235 degrees celsius, -391 degrees fahrenheit). triton might be more like pluto than any other object spacecraft have so far visited. pluto is the most distant of the planets, yet the eccentricity of its orbit periodically carries it inside neptune's orbit, where it has been since 1979 and where it will remain until march 1999. pluto's orbit is also highly inclined -- tilted 17 degrees to the orbital plane of the other planets. discovered in 1930, pluto appears to be little more than a celestial snowball. the planet's diameter is calculated to be approximately 2,300 kilometers (1,430 miles), only two-thirds the size of our moon. ground-based observations indicate that pluto's surface is covered with methane ice and that there is a thin atmosphere that may freeze and fall to the surface as the planet moves away from the sun. observations also show that pluto's spin axis is tipped by 122 degrees. the planet has one known satellite, charon, discovered in 1978. charon's surface composition is different from pluto's: the moon appears to be covered with water-ice rather than methane ice. its orbit is gravitationally locked with pluto, so both bodies always keep the same hemisphere facing each other. pluto's and charon's rotational period and charon's period of revolution are all 6.4 earth days. although no spacecraft have ever visited pluto, nasa is currently exploring the possibility of such a mission. the outermost members of the solar system occasionally pay a visit to the inner planets. as asteroids are the rocky and metallic remnants of the formation of the solar system, comets are the icy debris from that dim beginning and can survive only far from the sun. most comet nuclei reside in the oort cloud, a loose swarm of objects in a halo beyond the planets and reaching perhaps halfway to the nearest star. comet nuclei orbit in this frozen abyss until they are gravitationally perturbed into new orbits that carry them close to the sun. as a nucleus falls inside the orbits of the outer planets, the volatile elements of which it is made gradually warm; by the time the nucleus enters the region of the inner planets, these volatile elements are boiling. the nucleus itself is irregular and only a few miles across, and is made principally of water-ice with methane and ammonia -- materials very similar to those composing the moons of the giant planets. as these materials boil off of the nucleus, they form a coma or cloud-like "head" that can measure tens of thousands of kilometers across. the coma grows as the comet gets closer to the sun. the stream of charged particles coming from the sun pushes on this cloud, blowing it back like a flag in the wind and giving rise to the comet's "tails." gases and ions are blown directly back from the nucleus, but dust particles are pushed more slowly. as the nucleus continues in its orbit, the dust particles are left behind in a curved arc. both the gas and dust tails point away from the sun; in effect, the comet chases its tails as it recedes from the sun. the tails can reach 150 million kilometers (93 million miles) in length, but the total amount of material contained in this dramatic display would fit in an ordinary suitcase. comets -- from the latin cometa, meaning "long-haired" -- are essentially dramatic light shows. some comets pass through the solar system only once, but others have their orbits gravitationally modified by a close encounter with one of the giant outer planets. these latter visitors can enter closed elliptical orbits and repeatedly return to the inner solar system. halley's comet is the most famous example of a relatively short period comet, returning on an average of once every 76 years and orbiting from beyond neptune to within venus' orbit. confirmed sightings of the comet go back to 240 b.c. this regular visitor to our solar system is named for sir edmond halley, because he plotted the comet's orbit and predicted its return, based on earlier sightings and newtonian laws of motion. his name became part of astronomical lore when, in 1759, the comet returned on schedule. unfortunately, sir edmond did not live to see it. a comet can be very prominent in the sky if it passes comparatively close to earth. unfortunately, on its most recent appearance, halley's comet passed no closer than 62.4 million kilometers (38.8 million miles) from our world. the comet was visible to the naked eye, especially for viewers in the southern hemisphere, but it was not spectacular. comets have been so bright, on rare occasions, that they were visible during daytime. historically, comet sightings have been interpreted as bad omens and have been artistically rendered as daggers in the sky. the comet rendezvous/asteroid flyby (craf) spacecraft will become the first traveler to fly close to a comet nucleus and remain in proximity to it as they both approach the sun. craf will observe the nucleus as it becomes active in the growing sunlight and begins to have its lighter elements boil off and form a coma and tails. several spacecraft have flown by comets at high speed; the first was nasa's international cometary explorer in 1985. an armada of five spacecraft (two japanese, two soviet and the giotto spacecraft from the european space agency) flew by halley's comet in 1986. despite their efforts to peer across the vast distances of space through an obscuring atmosphere, scientists of the past had only one body they could study closely -- earth. but since 1959, spaceflight through the solar system has lifted the veil on our neighbors in space. we have learned more about our solar system and its members than anyone had in the previous thousands of years. our automated spacecraft have traveled to the moon and to all the planets beyond our world except pluto; they have observed moons as large as small planets, flown by comets and sampled the solar environment. astronomy books now include detailed pictures of bodies that were only smudges in the largest telescopes for generations. we are lucky to be alive now to see these strange and beautiful places and objects. the knowledge gained from our journeys through the solar system has redefined traditional earth sciences like geology and meteorology and spawned an entirely new discipline called comparative planetology. by studying the geology of planets, moons, asteroids and comets, and comparing differences and similarities, we are learning more about the origin and history of these bodies and the solar system as a whole. we are also gaining insight into earth's complex weather systems. by seeing how weather is shaped on other worlds and by investigating the sun's activity and its influence throughout the solar system, we can better understand climatic conditions and processes on earth. we will continue to learn and benefit as our automated spacecraft explore our neighborhood in space. one current mission is mapping venus; others are flying between worlds and will reach the sun and jupiter after complex trajectory adjustments. future missions are planned for mars, saturn, a comet and the asteroid we can also look forward to the time when humans will once again set foot on an alien world. although astronauts have not been back to the moon since december 1972, plans are being formulated for our return to the lunar landscape and for the human exploration of mars and even the establishment of martian outposts. one day, taking a holiday may mean spending a week at a lunar base or a martian colony! - end - 
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<instance id="sci.space61437">
<answer instance="sci.space61437" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 2. on april 23, a cruise science memory readout (mro) was performed for the magnetometer (mag) instrument. analysis indicates the data was received am i correct in assuming that the science instruments buffer their acquired data in onboard ram, which is then downloaded upon receipt of the mro command? simon brady you don't need a lot of fancy hardware for university of otago virtual reality - just a walkman and an dunedin, new zealand attitude 
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<instance id="sci.space61438">
<answer instance="sci.space61438" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i expect that retrieving hst would involve 'damaging' it considerably in order to return it to its cradle in the cargo bay. most of the deployed items (antennas and, especially, the solar arays) probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position, even by hand... no, the thing is designed to be retrievable, in a pinch. indeed, this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays, since they had to be retractable as well as extendable, and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array-flapping problems. the retrieval problems are exactly as stated: it would be costly, would involve extensive downtime (and the worry of someone finding a reason not to re-launch it), and would unnecessarily expose the telescope to a lot of mechanical stresses and possibilities for contamination. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61441">
<answer instance="sci.space61441" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 idea for repair of satellites: warning i am getting creative again: why not build a inflatable space dock. basically deploy one side of the space dock (using a scissor shaped structure, saw it on beyond 2000), then maneuer the side to next to the satellite and then move the rest of the dock around the satellite and seal it.. the inflate the dock with a gas (is does not have to be oxygen, just neeeds to be non-flameble, non-damaging to the satellite and abel to maintain heat), thenheat the space dock (for the astronaut who will be working onthe satellite to be able to not have to wear the normal bulky space suit, but a much striped down own).. i know this might take a slot of work or not??? or just to plain wierd, but ideas need to be thought of, for where is tomorrow, but in the imagination of the present.. michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61444">
<answer instance="sci.space61444" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 1. calculators 2. teflon (so your eggs don't stick in the pan) 3. pacemakers (kept my grandfather alive from 1976 until 1988) i don't think touting contributions is a good idea. world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs. eg. radar, jet aeroplanes, rocket technology. i don't think anyone would argue that world war ii was, in and of itself, a good thing. if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself. i disagree with what to tout, although i agree that the space program is inherently a good thing. most people today only care about "what will it cost me?" and "what's in it for me?" and could care less about whether something is simply worthwhile in and of itself. our society has become increasingly geared toward the short-term (which you could read as now!). they couldn't care less about next week, much less next century. they want something to show for the expenditure and they want it *now*. i think to some extent this is a case of stooping to their level. you assume that the general public "can't handle the truth" and then, based on this assumption, go for the fluff arguments. then someone, who can understand a good argument, comes along and asks "why don't you just develop the spinoffs?" or "why can't we just get our spinoffs from some other program, like the military?" there are some good arguments for space development without relying on its side effects. i'm not ignoring the value of spinoffs. i simply think that the general public deserves more credit than you give them. btw: don't forget velcro... and if you're going to use spinoffs you better make darn sure you are right. teflon has been around since before nasa. as i understand it, velcro was conceptualized by a french doctor who went walking in the woods and took the trouble to wonder how burrs stick to your clothes. certainly velcro was available on hiking equipment by the early to mid sixties. i would need to see some good evidence before i believe that either of these would not be here today without nasa. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61447">
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 |>|energetic for close by. for the coronal model, we found around 10^43 erg/sec. |>|and lastly, for the cosmological model an l=10^53. that's what you'd call |>|moderately energetic, i'd say. any suggestions about what could put out that |>|much energy in one second? |>> -jeremy |>big capacitor :-) real big capacitor. |it's been suggested. (specifically, lightning strikes between clouds |in the interstellar medium.) how big of a lightning rod, would you need for protection? and would you need jupiter as a ground plane. 
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<instance id="sci.space61448">
<answer instance="sci.space61448" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i am taking a course entitled "exploring science using internet". for our final project, we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science-related topic. i chose astronomy. anyway, i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy, space, nasa, or anything like that. do you know of the world-wide-web? this is a global hypertext (well, hypermedia) network running on the internet. one of the nice things about it is that is understands and incorporates virtually all of the other systems being used, like wais, gopher, ftp, archie, etc. it is usually quite easy to add existing resources to the web. if you'd like to explore, i'd suggest getting the xmosaic program, written at the ncsa. it's an x-windows web browser, and is pretty slick. it can understand and cope with more than text: gif, jpeg, mpeg, audio, etc. there are other browsers, including a text-mode browser for people stuck on a text terminal, but i'm most familliar with mosaic. under the page "the world-wide web virtual library: subject catalogue" (this is available under the documents menu in mosaic, or by any browser via the url http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/datasources/bysubject/overview.html ) there is a subject "space science." currently this points to a page under construction, with only the nasa jpl ftp archive. i've volunteered to take over this page, and in fact i have a replacement with all sorts of information pointers (mostly gleaned from the sci.space faq). as soon as the overworked "subject catalogue" maintainer switches the "space science" pointer, it'll be visible. i'll post a short note when this happens. frederick g. m. roeber | cern -- european center for nuclear research e-mail: roeber@cern.ch or roeber@caltech.edu | work: +41 22 767 31 80 r-mail: cern/ppe, 1211 geneva 23, switzerland | home: +33 50 20 82 99 "sorry, baby, i can't take you to the pizza joint tonight, i've got to go back to the lab and split the atom." -- ayn rand, "what is romanticism?" 
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<instance id="sci.space61454">
<answer instance="sci.space61454" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 being wierd again, so be warned: being what? oh, _weird_. ok, i'm warned! is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch? i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion. keep watch for what? how about a mission (unmanned) to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto.. i know it is a strange idea, but why not?? oh, the several tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars it would cost to "record things" there. and i'd prefer a manned mission, anyway. it could do some scanning of not only pluto, but also of the solar system, objects near and aaroundpluto, as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about.. we've already got a pretty good platform to "scan" the solar system, as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about.. care to guess where it is? rob unverzagt | shag@aerospace.aero.org | tuesday is soylent green day. unverzagt@courier2.aero.org | 
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<instance id="sci.space61458">
<answer instance="sci.space61458" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 as for human tolerances, the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude (i.e. low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure) is in my opinion to the scaling of mt. everest without oxygen assistance... ... this is quite a feat of physiological endurance... indeed so; it's at the extreme limit of what is humanly possible. it is possible only because mount everest is at a fairly low latitude: there is a slight equatorial bulge in the atmosphere -- beyond what is induced by the earth's rotation -- thanks to the overall circulation pattern of the atmosphere (air cools at poles and descends, flowing back to equator where it is warmed and rises), and this helps just enough to make everest- without-oxygen feasible. only just feasible, mind you: the guys who did it reported hallucinations and other indications of oxygen starvation, and probably incurred some permanent brain damage. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61461">
<answer instance="sci.space61461" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i haven't seen any mention of this in a while, so here goes... when the hubble telescope was first deployed, one of its high gain antennas was not able to be moved across its full range of motion. it was suspected that it had been snagged on a cable or something. operational procedures were modified to work around the problem, and later problems have overshadowed the hga problem. is there any plan to look at the affected hga during the hst repair mission, to determine the cause of its limited range of motion? is the affected hga still limited, or is it now capable of full range of motion? steve derry <s.d.derry@larc.nasa.gov> 
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<instance id="sci.space61462">
<answer instance="sci.space61462" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it said that in the 60's they developed a rocket that used ions or nuclear particles for propolsion. the government however, didn't give them $1billion for the developement... i'd guess this was a garbled report of the nerva effort to develop a solid-core fission rocket (the most mundane type of nuclear rocket). that was the only advanced-propulsion project that was done on a large enough scale to be likely to attract news attention. it *could* be any number of things -- the description given is awfully vague -- but i'd put a small bet on nerva. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61464">
<answer instance="sci.space61464" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch? ... there would be some point to doing long-term monitoring of things like particles and fields, not to mention atmospheric phenomena. however, there is no particular plan to establish any sort of monitoring network. to be precise, there is no particular plan, period. this is a large part of the problem. in this context, it's not surprising that unexciting but useful missions like this get short shrift at budget time. the closest approach to any sort of long-term planetary monitoring mission is the occasional chance to piggyback something like this on top of a flashier mission like galileo or cassini. how about a mission (unmanned) to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto... it is most unlikely that there is much happening on pluto that would be worth monitoring, and it is a prohibitively difficult mission to fly without new propulsion technology (something the planetary community has firmly resisted being the guinea pigs for). the combined need to arrive at pluto within a reasonable amount of time, and then kill nearly all of the cruise velocity to settle into an orbit, is beyond what can reasonably be done with current (that is, 1950s-vintage) propulsion. it could do some scanning of not only pluto, but also of the solar system, objects near and aaroundpluto, as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about.. most of this can be done just about as well from earth. the few things that can't be, can be done better from a voyager-like spacecraft that is *not* constrained by the need to enter orbit around a planet. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61465">
<answer instance="sci.space61465" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : the limit on space-walking is a function of suit supplies (mass) : and orbiter duration. : in order to perform the re-boost of the hst, the oms engines : will be fired for a long period. now the shuttle is a heavy : thing. the hst isn't light either. the amount of oms fuel : needed to fly both up is substantial. a small booster : carried up and used to boost hst on it's own will weigh significantly : less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle, : for a given orbital change. : from what i understand, the mass margins on the hst missions are : tight enough they can't even carry extra suits or mmu's. : pat i haven't seen any specifics on the hst repair mission, but i can't see why the mass margins are tight. what are they carrying up? replacement components (wfpc ii, costar, gyros, solar panels, and probably a few others), all sorts of tools, eva equipment, and as much oms fuel and consumables as they can. this should be lighter than the original hst deployment mission, which achieved the highest altitude for a shuttle mission to date. and hst is now in a lower seems like the limiting factors would be crew fatigue and mission complexity. steve derry <s.d.derry@larc.nasa.gov> 
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<instance id="sci.space61467">
<answer instance="sci.space61467" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if that's the case, let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are, well, not-too-far from being blackbodies. many different observations, including iras and cobe, have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from 40k to 150k. interstellar grains are not at all close to blackbodies. the "large" grains have sizes of order 0.1 micron and absorb visible light with fair efficiency. however, at temperatures below 100 k, 90% of the thermal emission will be beyond 22 microns, where radiating efficiency is poor. (a small antenna cannot easily radiate at long wavelengths.) thus the grains must heat up more in order to radiate the energy they have absorbed. moreover, the iras observations had a maximum wavelength of 100 microns. grains colder than 30 k will radiate primarily at longer wavelengths, and iras would be relatively insensitive to them. in the extreme limit, grains as cold as 5 k will be almost undetectable by any conceivable observation. worse still, iras color temperatures are heavily contaminated by a population of "small" grains. these grains have only perhaps 50 atoms, and when they are hit by a single photon they heat up to temperatures of several hundred or 1000 k. of course they cool quickly and then stay cold for a while, but _when they are radiating_ the characteristic temperature is several hundred k. even a small population of these grains can dramatically raise the observed "average" temperature. a model for local infrared emission consistent with cobe data has three components. these represent scattered radiation from zodiacal dust (color temperature 5500 k), thermal emission from zodiacal dust (tc = 280 k), and thermal emission from galactic dust (tc=25 k). at the ecliptic poles, the emissivities or dilution factors are respectively 1.9e-13, 4e-8, and 2e-5. the first two are roughly doubled in the ecliptic plane. to find the thermal equilibrium temperature, we add up the dilution factor times the fourth power of temperature for all components, then take the fourth root. in the table below, starlight comes from allen's number that stellar emission from the whole sky is equivalent to 460 zero mag stars with b-v color of 0.75. no doubt careful work could do much better. (the person who suggested starlight had a dilution factor of e-4 must have been remembering wrong. we would be cooked if that were the case. in any event, the energy density of starlight comes out about the same as that of the microwave background, and i believe that to be correct.) dilution temp. dt^4 microwave background 1 2.7 53 galactic dust 2e-5 25 8 zodiacal dust (emission) 6e-8 280 369 zodiacal dust (scattering) 3e-13 5500 275 starlight 1e-13 5500 92 the fourth root of 797 is 5.3 k. outside the solar system, the result would be 3.5 k. i find these results surprising, especially the importance of zodiacal dust, but i don't see any serious mistakes. steve willner phone 617-495-7123 bitnet: willner@cfa cambridge, ma 02138 usa internet: willner@cfa.harvard.edu member, league for programming freedom; contact lpf@uunet.uu.net 
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<instance id="sci.space61468">
<answer instance="sci.space61468" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm wondering if "vandalize" is the proper word to use in this situation. my dictionary defines "vandalism" as "the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property, especially of anything beautiful or artisitc." i would agree the sky is beautiful, but not that it is public or private property. it's public because it belongs to everybody. it's vandalism because many people -- power companies -- do maliciously waste light. if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes 30 to 50 percent of its light, they make more _money_. never mind that your money is wasted. never mind that taxpaper's money is wasted. never mind that the sky is ruined. bob bunge greed is great - gordon grekko 
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<instance id="sci.space61469">
<answer instance="sci.space61469" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth. it appears in both the 0430-1500ut ir and visual images of the earth. the gif images can be down loaded from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu and are named ci043015.gif and cv043015.gif for the ir and visual images respectively. pretty cool pictures; in the ir it's saturated but in the visual image details on the moon are viewable. the moon is not in the 1400ut images. george wm turner turner@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61472">
<answer instance="sci.space61472" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth. it appears in both the 0430-1500ut ir and visual images of the earth. the gif images can be down loaded from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu and are named ci043015.gif and cv043015.gif for the ir and visual images respectively. pretty cool pictures; in the ir it's saturated but in the visual image details on the moon are viewable. near midsummer, you can see the relfection of the sun in the ocean. also during solar eclise you can see the shadow of the sun move across the clouds. 
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<instance id="sci.space61473">
<answer instance="sci.space61473" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ...text of options "a" and "b" deleted... option c - single core launch station. this is the jsc lead option. basically, you take a 23 ft diameter cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 space shuttle main engines on the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors, and launch the can. some key features are: - complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout - 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels - body mounted radiators (which adds protection against micrometeroid & orbital debris) - 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end) - 7 berthing ports - a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet (twice the volume of skylab). - 7 floors, center passageway between floors - 10 kw of housekeeping power somehow i have a strange attraction for this idea (living in a modular home maybe has altered my mind). the only thing that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 ssme's and a nosecone on it and "just launching it." i have this vision of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction). i certainly like this "option c"... it's much more like the original phase b studies from the early 1970's. good stuff! dave michelson -- davem@ee.ubc.ca -- university of british columbia 
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<instance id="sci.space61474">
<answer instance="sci.space61474" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 "the forever war", one of my favorite scifi books, had a passage devoted to breathing fluids. the idea was to protect people from the high accelerations required for interstellar travel by emersing the passengers in dry-cleaning fluid saturated with oxygen. plenty of very imaginative ideas is this book. i would certainly recommend it (won the hugo and the nebula awards). and most definitely read it in conjunction with heinlein's _starship trooper_. the two books are radically different viewpoints of the same basic premises. i've even heard tell of english classes built around this. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61476">
<answer instance="sci.space61476" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark, uncluttered night sky. and from whence does this right stem, that it overrides the 'rights' of the rest of us? let me give you an example. when you watch tv, they have commercials to pay for the programming. you accept that as part of watching. if you don't like it, you can turn it off. if you want to view the night sky, and there is a floating billboard out there, you can't turn it off. it's the same reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas. and if you want to view that television station, you have to watch the commercials. you can't turn them off and still be viewing the television station. in other words, if you don't like what you see, don't look. there is no 'right' i can think of that you have to force other people to conform to your idea of aesthetic behaviour. what's next, laws regulating how people must dress and look so as to appeal to your fashion sense, since you have this 'right' of an aesthetic it's called a democracy. the majority rules. sorry. if ytou don't like it, i suggest you modify the constitution to include a constitutional right to dark skies. the theory of government here is that the majority rules, except in the nature of fundamental civil rights. i say: any reasonably in-depth perusal of american history will show you that many wasps have continued the practices of prejudice, discrimination, and violence against others of different races, religions, and beliefs, despite the law. which has what to do with the topic of discussion? pat says: if you really are annoyed, get some legislation to create a dark sky zone, where in all light emissions are protected in the zone. kind of like the national radio quiet zone. did you know about that? near teh radio telescope observatory in west virginia, they have a 90?????? mile emcon zone. theoretically they can prevent you from running light ac motors, like air conditioners and vacuums. in practice, they use it mostly to control large radio users. i say: what i'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably, would move around in the sky. i, for one, am against legislating at all. i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human. this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things, including the night sky. oh, i see. you don't want any legislation that might impinge on you; you just want everyone else on the planet to do what you want. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61477">
<answer instance="sci.space61477" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself. i think we *should* tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs of the space program. that is the only way you can *prove* its worth to *them* - and they vote and pay taxes too. the continued existence of the space program relies upon that money. i have to agree with ward. the problem with your approach is they add up what you can reasonably claim as 'spin-offs', add up what's been spent on space, and then come back with something like, "you spent $x billion for that? wouldn't it be better just to spend the money on direct research and forget all this space stuff? we could have got all that stuff a *lot* cheaper that way. space is wasteful and inefficient." then they cancel your funding and spend it studying mating rituals of new guinea tribesmen or something. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61478">
<answer instance="sci.space61478" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 being wierd again, so be warned: is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch? i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion. how about a mission (unmanned) to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto.. i know it is a strange idea, but why not?? it could do some scanning of not only pluto, but also of the solar system, objects near and aaroundpluto, as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about.. doing this in anything like reasonable time would require more propulsion capability than we can manage. you would have to boost to pluto and then slow back down. you could do something like a hohman orbit, but i think that would take ridiculous amounts of time (my rubber bible is at home). "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="sci.space61480">
<answer instance="sci.space61480" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 re; response from cob of boeing on ssto ... "as far as single stage to orbit technology, we think that we have a better answer in a two stage approach, and we are talking to some of our customers about that. as far as commercialization, that is a long ways off. ... anybody know anything further? is this really news? does this threaten further work on dc-? ? boeing has been looking at several tsto vehicles and has carried out extensive conceptual studies of advanced launch systems for some time. a good reference on this might be: "comparison of propulsion options for advanced earth-to-orbit (eto) applications (iaf-92- 0639)." by v.a. weldon and l.e. fink from boeing. the paper describes a propane-fueled tsto launch system claimed to achieve aircraft-like operational efficiencies without the problems associated with liquid hydrogen fuel. basically, it's a high-speed airplane launching a hermes-type spaceplane the design (the concept is also called "beta") as laid out in the paper can launch at least 10,000 pounds into polar orbit, or 20,000 pounds to space station orbit including a crew of eight persons and life support. system design reliability is .9995. beta is a 360-foot-long first stage powered by two large ramjets and 12 high- speed civil transport (hsct) turbofans. a 108-foot- long reusable orbiter is trapeze-mounted in the belly of the first- stage aircraft, which also could accommodate a longer and heavy payload on an expendable second stage. to launch the orbital vehicle, the first stage takes off like a normal hsct and accelerates to mach 3. at that point the turbofans, modified to burn catalyzed jp-7, would shut off and the ramjets, would take over. at mach 5.5 the orbiter or the elv would swing out, ignite and proceed to orbit. both vehicles would land like aircraft at the conclusion of their respective missions. estimated total weight of the combined configuration at takeoff is about 1.5 m lbs, roughly equivalanet to a fully loaded an-225. the orbiter stages weighs about 400,klbs including 335 klbs of lox and subcooled propane to power two 250 klbs vacuum thrust rocket engines. propellants would be stored at 91 degrees kelvin, with the propane in a spherical tank mounted forward of the 15-by- 25-foot cargo bay and the two-seat orbiter crew station. lox would be stored aft. weldon and fink claim the key to this design's success is the structurally efficient airframe and the compact tankage allowed by the high-density supercooled hydrocarbon fuel. the paper compares tsto design to ssto design. they conclude while a ssto has a slightly lower recurring cost, a tsto is easier, cheaper, and less risky to develop, simpler to build, has greater safety and mission versatility and doesn't carry the hard-to-handle and bulky hydrogen fuel. the conlcude "in conjunction with its major use of airplane type engines and fuel, as well as its inherent self- ferry capability, it is probably the system most likely to provide as close to airline-like operations as possible with a practical configuration, until a single stage airbreather/rocket concept can be shown to be operationally viable." is this really news? does this threaten further work on dc-? weldon and others at boeing have been working on tsto designs for some time. i expect this, or a similar concept (perhaps the hthl ssto they proposed for the sdio ssto first phase) is being re- examined as a basis for a bid on the first phase of spacelifter. does it threaten dc-???. possibly -- there is a set of on-going studies trying straighten out the government's future space transportation strategy. mdc and boeing (as well as other firms) are providing data to a joint study team back in dc. there are various factions and options vying for attention -- including shuttle upgrades, shuttle replacement (what was called the "4-2-3" architecture), spacelifter, elv upgrades, and various advanced vehicles (ales, beta, dc-??, nasp, fsts, sstos of several types, etc.) nasa/dod/dot are trying to put together a coherent strategy for future us gov't space transportation systems, and trying to juggle near-term launch needs (like for dod and nasa) against medium-term needs (including commercial considerations), and against the investment and risk of going to "leap frog" new technologies like sdio/ssto and nasp and beta. it's a heck of a problem. the worst part of the problem isn't that there aren't promising ideas and concepts -- there are dozens of them -- but how they balance cost and risk versus real needs in the near term. they should have a draft report in mid-june, with a final report coming by the end of the fiscal year. wales larrison space technology investor --- maximus 2.01wb 
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<instance id="sci.space61481">
<answer instance="sci.space61481" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 after all the space walking, they are going to re-boost the hst's orbit. i think right now it's sitting at 180 miles up, they would like 220. i don't know the exact orbit numbers. as ben says - this re-boost idea is all news to us here. do you know something we don't? please supply a source - it would be nice for the schedulers of observations to know where the thing is going to be. these altitude numbers are also way off. my best source has: "minimum st altitude in the pmdb is: 573 kilometers" "maximum st altitude in the pmdb is: 603 kilometers" "delta st altitude in the pmdb is: 3 kilometers" (pmdb is proposal management data base - used to schedule observations.) in order to perform the re-boost of the hst, the oms engines will be fired for a long period. now the shuttle is a heavy thing. the hst isn't light either. the amount of oms fuel needed to fly both up is substantial. a small booster carried up and used to boost hst on it's own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle, for a given orbital change. could you supply some calculations? you might check some recent postings that explained that 'a small booster' as suggested does not now exist, so comparing the mass of something that doesn't exist to the mass of the oms fuel seems impossible. the contamination threat also remains. or the hst could even get placed into some sort of medium orbit. the reason they want a high orbit, is less antenna pointing, and longer drag life. longer drag life i can understand, but could you explain the antenna pointing? whatever it is, the problem in the tilt array is a big constraint on hst ops. tell me about it. although the arrays can be (and are) moved perfectly well utilizing the second electronics box. getting them both working is much desireable so as to reclaim redundancy. i don't mean to jump on you - helpful suggestions are always welcome and we all know the more ideas the better, but i do want the true situation to be described clearly and correctly, lest some get wm. hathaway 
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<instance id="sci.space61482">
<answer instance="sci.space61482" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : the limit on space-walking is a function of suit supplies (mass) : and orbiter duration. i haven't seen any specifics on the hst repair mission, but i can't see why the mass margins are tight. what are they carrying up? replacement components (wfpc ii, costar, gyros, solar panels, and probably a few others), all sorts of tools, eva equipment, and as much oms fuel and consumables as they can. this should be lighter than the original hst deployment mission, which achieved the highest altitude for a shuttle mission to date. and hst is now in a lower seems like the limiting factors would be crew fatigue and mission complexity. steve derry <s.d.derry@larc.nasa.gov> one thing to recall. putting a satellite as high as possible is one thing. coming back to not only that altitude, but matching the position of it in its orbit on a subsequent mission is another thing. any misalignment of the plane of the orbit during launch or being ahead or behind the target will require more fuel to adjust. this was considered in the original deployment. i agree though that the demands on the crew and complexity are stupendous. one has to admire how much they are trying to do. wm. hathaway baltimore md 
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<instance id="sci.space61483">
<answer instance="sci.space61483" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i just wanted to point out, that teflon wasn't from the space program. it was from the wwii nuclear weapons development program. pipes in the system for fractioning and enriching uranium had to be lined with it. uranium hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for enrichment. it is massively corrosive. even to stainless steels. hence the need for a very inert substaance to line the pipes with. teflon has all its molecular sockets bound up already, so it is very unreactive. my 2 sense worth. 
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<instance id="sci.space61488">
<answer instance="sci.space61488" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the single launch core station concept. a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit. shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation. why jettison the ssmes? why not hold on to them and have a shuttle bring them down to use as spares? good question....i asked that myself....however, since this option is as expensive as the freedom derivative, the issue will likely be moot. 
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<instance id="sci.space61491">
<answer instance="sci.space61491" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm wondering if "vandalize" is the proper word to use in this situation. my dictionary defines "vandalism" as "the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property, especially of anything beautiful or artisitc." i would agree the sky is beautiful, but not that it is public or private property. it's public because it belongs to everybody. no, the sky does not, at this time, belong to anyone. ownership is necessary to the definition because someone has to have the authority to decide if the action was good or bad. if neither you or i own a brick wall, then i can't unilaterally declare that spraypainting my name on it is right, and you don't have the authority to declare that it is wrong. the owner may find it artistic or she may be call the police. (this applies to the argument on bright satellites more than street lights) it's vandalism because many people -- power companies -- do maliciously waste light. "maliciously" implies evil intent. the lighting companies aren't going out of their way to spoil the sky. they just don't care. if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes 30 to 50 percent of its light, they make more _money_. never mind that your money is wasted. it is the responsibility of the customer to choose the most efficient hardware. if that's what your city will buy, that's what the lighting company will sell. write a letter to city hall. please note that i'm not defending light pollution. the orignial focus of this thread was space based light sources. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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<instance id="sci.space61494">
<answer instance="sci.space61494" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 as for human tolerances, the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude (i.e. low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure) is in my opinion to the scaling of mt. everest without oxygen assistance... ... this is quite a feat of physiological endurance... indeed so; it's at the extreme limit of what is humanly possible. it is possible only because mount everest is at a fairly low latitude: there is a slight equatorial bulge in the atmosphere -- beyond what is induced by the earth's rotation -- thanks to the overall circulation pattern of the atmosphere (air cools at poles and descends, flowing back to equator where it is warmed and rises), and this helps just enough to make everest- without-oxygen feasible. only just feasible, mind you: the guys who did it reported hallucinations and other indications of oxygen starvation, and probably incurred some permanent brain damage. climbers regard 8000 metres and up as "the death zone". even on 100% oxygen, you are slowly dying. at 8848m (everest), most climbers spend only a short period of time before descending. i've been above 8000 once. descending as little as 300m feels like walking into a jungle, the air is so thick. everest in winter without oxygen, no support party (alpine style). that is the "ultimate challenge" (or is it solo?) dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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<instance id="sci.space61497">
<answer instance="sci.space61497" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 analog sf magazine did an article on a similar subject quite a few years ago. the question was, if an alien spacecraft landed in washington, d.c., what was the proper organization to deal with it: the state department (alien ambassadors), the defense department (alien invaders), the immigration and naturalization service (illegal aliens), the department of the interior (new non-human species), etc. it was very much a question of our perception of the aliens, not of anything intrinsic in their nature. the bibliography for the article cited a philosophical paper (the name and author of which i sadly forget; i believe the author was italian) on what constitutes a legal and/or moral person, i.e., a being entitled to the rights normally accorded to a person. the paper was quite interesting, as i recall. this is a whole different situation. if aliens were able to get here prior to us being able to get there, one might conclude that they would be more advanced and therefore "more intelegent" that we are. however if we get somewhere where there is life, chances are we wont be able to communicate with them. so we will have no clue as to weather they are "intelegent" or not. i think you'd have to be very careful here if the answer is yes. the human track record on helping those poor underpriveleged cultures (does underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges?) is terrible. the usual result is the destruction or radical reorganization of the culture. this may not always be wrong, but that's the way to bet. that's a good point, i hadn't thought of it that way. my question however was more along the lines of... every year the us spends millions of tax dollars and giving tax breaks to individuals and companies who feed the poor of foreign countries while thousands of our own people sleep on the streets at night. would we give to the economicly dissadvantaged on another planet if we hadn't resolved these issues on our own? but... your comment brings up another good question. over the years we have decided that certain cultures need improvements. the native americans is a good example. prior to our attempt to civilize them, the native american culture had very little crime, no homelessnes, no poverty. then the europeans came along and now they have those and more. if we encounter life elsewhere, do we tell them they have to live in houses, farm the land and go to church on sunday? have a day, ( ) bobo 
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<instance id="sci.space61500">
<answer instance="sci.space61500" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the most current orbital elements from the norad two-line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when possible). documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. as a service to the satellite user community, the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. the celestial bbs may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space. sts 55 1 22640u 93 27 a 93120.24999999 .00044939 00000-0 12819-3 0 129 2 22640 28.4643 241.8868 0011265 284.7181 109.3644 15.91616537 580 dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso@afit.af.mil air force institute of technology 
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<instance id="sci.space61501">
<answer instance="sci.space61501" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 picture our universe floating like a log in a river. as the log floats down the river, it occasionally strikes rocks, the bank, the bottom, other logs. when this collission occurs, kinetic energy is translated into heat, the log degrades, gets scraped up, and other energy translaions occur. the distribution of damage to the log depends on the shape of the log. however, to a very small virus in a mite on the head of a termite in the center of the log, the shock waves from the collissions would appear uniformly random in direction. this is my theory for grb. they are evidence of our universe interacting with other universes! why not! makes just as much sense as the grb coming from the oort cloud! the log theory of universes can't be ruled out! of course, i'm a layman in the physics world. you physicists out there, tell me about this !!!! bob combs astronautical engineer, stanford telecom 
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<instance id="sci.space61504">
<answer instance="sci.space61504" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |>|energetic for close by. for the coronal model, we found around 10^43 erg/sec. |>|and lastly, for the cosmological model an l=10^53. that's what you'd call |>|moderately energetic, i'd say. any suggestions about what could put out that |>|much energy in one second? |>> -jeremy |>big capacitor :-) real big capacitor. |it's been suggested. (specifically, lightning strikes between clouds |in the interstellar medium.) how big of a lightning rod, would you need for protection? and would you need jupiter as a ground plane. sounds to me like you'd want a star for the ground plane. phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61507">
<answer instance="sci.space61507" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ...over the years we have decided that certain cultures need improvements. the native americans is a good example. prior to our attempt to civilize them, the native american culture had very little crime, no homelessnes, no poverty... this is, shall we say, an overly-broad statement. in particular, are you referring to the native american culture that existed in 1400, or the one that existed in 1800? (simplify things by assuming we're talking about the eastern us rather than the whole continent.) given that those were *radically* different cultures, which one are you referring to? ...if we encounter life elsewhere, do we tell them they have to live in houses, farm the land and go to church on sunday? note that the pre-columbian native americans, east of the mississippi, did all of these things. (well, maybe not "on sunday", but they did have organized religions, not to mention cities and governments.) if you are judging the native americans by the tribal culture that existed in 1800, you might want to read an account of the de soto expedition to find out what pre-columbian native american culture, at least in the more civilized parts of the continent, was like. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61509">
<answer instance="sci.space61509" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'd like to thank everyone and anyone who sent me information to help me with my project. _______ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ | | | __ | / ----- \ | | \ \| | / /\ \ |_| |__| |__| /__/ \__\ |_| \____| /__/ \_\ i'll send my report to all who requested a copy! keith malinowski stk1203@vax003.stockton.edu stockton state college pomona, nj 08240 
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<instance id="sci.space61511">
<answer instance="sci.space61511" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 hi folks, last year america bought two "hall generators" which are used as thrusters for space vehicles from former ussr,if i could recall correctly these devices were sent to jpl,pasadena labs for testing and i am just curious to know how these devices work and what what principle is involved .what became of them.there was also some controversy that the russian actually cheated,sold inferior devices and not the one they use in there space vehicles. any info will be appreciated... ok { thank{ in advance... tamoor a zaidi lockheed commercial aircraft center norton afb,san bernardino teezee@netcom.com de244@cleveland.freenet.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61512">
<answer instance="sci.space61512" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 habital planets are also dependent on what kind of plant life can be grown.. and such.. length of growing season (that is if you want something more than vat food, argh, id ratehr eat an mre for along period of time). i know in fairbanks (furbanks to some) the winter can get to -60 or so f, but in the summer can get to +90 and such.. i know of worse places.. incans and sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are a limit in human adaptability(someone mentioend that incan woman must come to lower elevations to have babies brought to term? true?) i remember a book by pourrnelle i think that delt with a planet was lower density air.. i wonder what the limit on the other end of atmospheres? i am limiting to human needs and stresses and not alien possibilties.. thou aliens might be more adapted to a totally alien to human environment, such as the upper atmosphere of jupiter or?? almost makes bio-engineered life easy... michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61513">
<answer instance="sci.space61513" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how hard or easy would it be to have a combo mission such as a solar sail on the way out to the outer planets, but once in near to orbit to use more normal means.. seems that everyone talks about using one system and one system only per mission, why not have more than one propulsion system? or did i miss something.. ?? or did it die in committee? michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61516">
<answer instance="sci.space61516" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 getting wierd again? okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to pluto is to large and to expensive.. okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts.. kind of liek the old mirv principle of old cold war days. basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions,namely different planets. each probe would be tied in with the mother ship (or earth as the case may be).. this is good when and if we go for mars (the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the also the mother ship would be powered (if not the mars mission) by a normal propulsion, but also a solar sail (main reason for solar sail race is to see what can be done and autmoated?) the sail would get the probes to were they needed.. i know the asteroid/meteor clouds (and such) might get in the way of a sail?? main reasonf ro mother ship idea is to make it more economoical to send multiple probes/mission/satellites/exploreres to different places and cut costs.. the probes could do fly bys or ?? we shall see... michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61517">
<answer instance="sci.space61517" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how different would the contamination threat of a small manuevering tug be from that of the shuttle and it's oms engines?????? the aperture door will be shut during reboost. using the shuttle means that there will be someone nearby to pry the door open again if it should stick. i just figured, if goldin wants to really, prove out faster, cheaper better, have some of the whiz kids slap together an expendable space manuevering tug out of a bus1, and use that for the re-boost. it's clear that the "whiz kids" are not running the show. in any case it's not prudent to stick a "slapped together" explosive device on the end of a billion dollar asset that you'd like to see again. (wiseacres might say that a shuttle is a slapped-together explosive device, but at least it's had some testing.) 
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<instance id="sci.space61519">
<answer instance="sci.space61519" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i commend everybody to look at the ftp site 'ftp.cicb.fr' -> ethernet address 129.20.128.2 <- in the directory /pub/images/astro: there are lots of images (all of kinds in astronomy subject) especially in gif format and a new ! directory of some jpl animations for your comfort, readme files in all subdirectories give size and description of each image, and a 7 days' newer images' list is in readmenew note: you can connect it as 'anonymous' or 'ftp' user, then the quota for each is 8 users connected in the same time. so, if the server responds you "connection refused", be patient ! 2nd note: this site is reachable by gopher at 'roland.cicb.fr' -> ethernet address 129.20.128.27 <- in 'divers serveurs ftp/le serveur ftp du cri-cicb/images/astro' if you have any comments, suggestions, problems, then you can contact me at e-mail 'rousself@univ-rennes1.fr' hope you enjoy it ! 
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<instance id="sci.space61520">
<answer instance="sci.space61520" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 cooked if that were the case. in any event, the energy density of starlight comes out about the same as that of the microwave background, and i believe that to be correct.) yeah, what about that? is this just a weird coincidence? (and let's not see all the same hands this time, tvf.) 
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<instance id="sci.space61521">
<answer instance="sci.space61521" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 [description of boeing study of two-staged spaceplane using supersonic ramjets deleted.] in other words, boeing is not seriously thinking about reliable, less-expensive access to orbit. they just like to fool around with exotic airplanes. 
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<instance id="sci.space61522">
<answer instance="sci.space61522" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 you should have been following the discussion of grbs going on in sci.astro. it's been discussed in some detail, with references even. 
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<instance id="sci.space61527">
<answer instance="sci.space61527" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : in article <1993apr29.121501@is.morgan.com>, jlieb@is.morgan.com (jerry liebelson) writes... : > i want to know what weightlessness actually feels like. for example, is : >there a constant sensation of falling? ron baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) replied: : yes, weightlessness does feel like falling. it may feel strange at first, : but the body does adjust. the feeling is not too different from that : of sky diving. i'm no astronaut, but i've flown in the kc-135 several times. i'll tell you about my first flight. at the on-set of weightlessness, my shoulders lifted and my spine straightened. i felt a momentary panic, and my hands tried to grab onto something (like the strap keeping me firmly against the floor) to prevent me from falling; i remember conciously over-ruling my involuntary motions. my ears felt (not heard) a rush and i could feel fluid moving in my head (like when you get up from bed while you have a cold). at that point, i ceased to concentrate on my physiological response, since i had some science to do. i was busy keeping my experiment going and keeping track of all the parts during the "return" of gravity and subsequent 1.8-g pull-out, so i didn't really pay attention to physiology at that time. after about 5 parabolas, i discovered that i was performing one of the tricks i've discovered to keep myself from getting motion sickness; i was keeping my head very still and moving very slowly -- all except my hands and arms, which needed to be in rapid, concious motion for my experiment. during the pull-out to parabola 5, my queasiness finally started to get to me, and i had to use one of those air-sickness bags. i was basically useless for the rest of that flight, so i went to the seats in the back of the plane while my partner (whom i drafted for just this purpose) kept working on the experiment while i was ill. (he was a vetran vomit comet rider, one of those anomalous people who don't get sick on the thing.) i didn't think of it as a "constant sensation of falling" so much as like swimming in air. it's very close to the sensations i feel when i'm scuba diving and i turn my head down and fins up. jerry: : >and what is the motion sickness : >that some astronauts occasionally experience? ron: : it is the body's reaction to a strange environment. it appears to be : induced partly to physical discomfort and part to mental distress. : some people are more prone to it than others, like some people are more : prone to get sick on a roller coaster ride than others. the mental : part is usually induced by a lack of clear indication of which way is : up or down, ie: the shuttle is normally oriented with its cargo bay : pointed towards earth, so the earth (or ground) is "above" the head of : the astronauts. about 50% of the astronauts experience some form of : motion sickness, and nasa has done numerous tests in space to try to : see how to keep the number of occurances down. i'm a volunteer in jsc's space biomedical laboratory where they do, among other things, some of the tests ron mentions. i was in one called the pre-flight adaptation trainer, which consisted of a chair on a several-degree-of-freedom motion base with moving geometric visual aids. the goal was to measure the victim's^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h subject's responses and subjective physiological descriptions and see if repeated exposure to this environment could reduce future motion sickness jerry -- i don't know of any former or active-duty astronauts who personally read this group. i know that bruce mccandless's office had been waiting anxiously for the space station redesign option i posted last week, but i don't think bruce reads the group himself. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "the man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything." -- edward john phelps, american diplomat/lawyer (1825-1895) 
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<instance id="sci.space61528">
<answer instance="sci.space61528" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : >why not build a inflatable space dock. : if you're doing large-scale satellite servicing, being able to do it in : a pressurized hangar makes considerable sense. the question is whether : anyone is going to be doing large-scale satellite servicing in the near : future, to the point of justifying development of such a thing. that's a mighty fine idea. but since you asked "why not," i'll putting aside the application of such a space dock, there are other factors to consider than just pressurized volume. temperature control is difficult in space, and your inflatable hangar will have to incorporate thermal insulation (maybe a double-walled inflatable). micrometeoroid protection and radiation protection are also required. don't think this will be a clear plastic bubble; it's more likely to look like a big white ball made out of the same kind of multi-layer fabric that soft-torso space suits are made out of today. because almost all manned space vessels (skylab, mir, salyut) used their pressurization for increased structural rigidity, even though they had (have) metal skins, they still kind of qualify as inflatable. the inflation process would have to be carefully controlled. the space environment reduces ductility in exposed materials (due to temperature extremes, monotomic oxygen impingement, and radiation effects on materials), so your "fabric" may not retain any flexibility for long. (this may not matter.) even after inflation, pressure changes in the hangar may cause flexing in the fabric, which could lead to holes and tears as ductility decreases. these are some of the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for an inflatable space station dealt with to varying degrees of -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "good ideas are common -- what's uncommon are people who'll work hard enough to bring them about." -- ashleigh brilliant 
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<instance id="sci.space61529">
<answer instance="sci.space61529" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 just a few contributions from the space program to "regular" society: 2. teflon (so your eggs don't stick in the pan) sorry to split hairs, but i just read in "the making of the atomic bomb"(*) that teflon was developed during world war 2. a sealant was needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was gradually enriched by difussion. uf6 is very corrosive, and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals. i think you're both right. teflon was actually discovered by accident before wwii. from what i've heard, they had some chemical (i assume it was tetrafluoroethylene) in a tank and but the valve got gummed up. cutting it open revealed that it had polymerized. the material was useful for seals, but it had a major problem for, say the linings of vessels: it wouldn't stick to metal. what the space program did was to find a way to get it to stick. thus we had no-stick frypans on the market in the late '60s. dan tilque -- dant@techbook.com 
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<instance id="sci.space61530">
<answer instance="sci.space61530" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 : >why not build a inflatable space dock. [discussion of pros and cons deleted] these are some of the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for an inflatable space station dealt with to varying degrees of could someone give me the references to the llnl proposal? i've been meaning to track it down in conjuntion with something i'm working on. it's not directly related to space stations, but i think many of the principles will carry over. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space61534">
<answer instance="sci.space61534" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |>given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt, and given |>the mass amrgins on the discovery mission is tight enough that spacewalking |>has to be carefully constrained..... no edo pallets, no spare suits, |>no extra mmu's. |has someone actually verified that mass is the predominant constraint on this |mission? you seem to be assuming it without giving supporting evidence. someone from nasa posted that there were very significant mass margins on the hst re-boost mission. a while back i had asked why not carry the edo pallet up, and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough, they weren't even carrying extra suits. |>why not do this? |> quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper, better. |>build a real fast space tug, to handle the re-boost of the hst using |>clean cryo fuels, and get it ready before the hst mission. |pat, this would be slower, more expensive and worse. |slower: the shuttle mission is scheduled to go up in december. that's less |than eight months away. there is no way you could build new hardware, retrain |and reschedule the eva's in that time. where's wingo when you need him:-) come on. knock that s**t off. you forget, that during skylab, they did overnight mission planning for the repair eva's. also during theøÄ    intelsat mission, they did overnight wetf simulations. i somehow think they could train up a new eva in 8 months. and as for building hardware, anything can be built if you want it bad enough. you forget, the bus 1 is already built. all they'd ahve to do is soup it up, even test it on a delta mission. don't get into this mode of negativism. besides, at the rate missions slip, the discovery won't launch on this mission until march. that's almost a year. |more expensive: your proposal still requires the shuttle to do everything it |was going to do execpt fire the oms. in addition, you've added significant |extra cost for a new piece of complex hardware. ah, but how much more expensive is the second hst servicing mission. you forget, there is a bum fgs, the solar array electronics, are getting hinky and there is still 8 months until the servicing mission. the time for the space walks are growing rapidly. this was orignally planned out as 3 spacewalks, now they are at 5 eva's with 3 reserve if the smt can avoid a second servicing mission that's $500 million saved. if the weight savings, means they can sit on orbit for 30 days. and handle any contingency problems, that's quite a savings. |according to a gao report on the omv i have before me, there are |only two currently planned missions that could use such a vehicle -- hst and |axaf. since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely on the shuttle, |there doesn't seem to be any need for your vehicle. of course, there wasn't any need for the saturn v after apollo too. as for the problems with the aperture door, i am sure they can work out some way to handle that. maybe a plug made from frozen ice.? it'll keep out any contamination, yet sublime away after teh boost. 
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<instance id="sci.space61535">
<answer instance="sci.space61535" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how hard or easy would it be to have a combo mission such as a solar sail on the way out to the outer planets, but once in near to orbit to use more normal means.. if you've got a good propulsion system that's not useful for deceleration, sure you can use chemical rockets for that part... but even just doing the deceleration chemically is a major headache. we're talking seriously high cruising velocities; taking the velocity down nearly to zero for a pluto orbit isn't easy with chemical fuels. incidentally, solar sails are not going to be suitable as the acceleration system for something like this. they don't go anywhere quickly. (i speak as head of mission planning for the canadian solar sail project, although that is more or less an honorary title right now because cssp is dormant.) they can't fly a mission like this unless you start talking about very advanced systems that drop in very close to the sun first. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61537">
<answer instance="sci.space61537" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth. near midsummer, you can see the relfection of the sun in the ocean. cool! also during solar eclise you can see the shadow of the sun move across the clouds. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i think you mean moon. (sorry, i had to.) ; ) 
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<instance id="sci.space61539">
<answer instance="sci.space61539" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 ... design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions,namely different planets... not useful unless you've got some truly wonderful propulsion system for the mother ship that can't be applied to the probes. otherwise it's better to simply launch the probes independently. the outer planets are scattered widely across a two-dimensional solar system, and going to one is seldom helpful in going to the next one. uranus is *not* on the way to neptune. don't judge interplanetary trajectories in general by what the voyagers did: they exploited a lineup that occurs only every couple of centuries, and even so voyager 2 took a rather indirect route to neptune. also the mother ship would be powered (if not the mars mission) by a normal propulsion, but also a solar sail ... solar sails are pretty useless in the outer solar system. they're also very slow, unless you assume quite advanced versions. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space61540">
<answer instance="sci.space61540" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 no, the thing is designed to be retrievable, in a pinch. indeed, this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays, since they had to be retractable as well as extendable, and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array-flapping problems. why not design the solar arrays to be detachable. if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst, what bother are some arrays. just fit them with a quick release. i didn't think the bi-stem design was used so much for the retrieval as for the ability to launch in a tight (size) sts envelope. this is my own guess, based on similar designs flown on other large sts-launched s/c (gro, uars). also, there _might_ be some consideration given to mass requirements (bi-stems weight less than conventional s/a). finally, the hst arrays _do_ have the ability to be detached--remember, they're going to be replaced with new arrays. however, as an acs guy who's seen his branch management pull their collective hair out over hst, i would voice a hearty 'yea' to using conventional arrays over bi-stems, whenever possible. no half hertz flexible modes, no thermal snap, no problem. david w. @ gsfc 
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<instance id="sci.space61542">
<answer instance="sci.space61542" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 by what the voyagers did: they exploited a lineup that occurs only every couple of centuries, and even so voyager 2 took a rather indirect route to neptune. indirect compared to what? did voyager 2 traverse a substantially greater distance than, say, a hohmann orbit? i've never heard voyager's path described as "indirect" before... dave michelson -- davem@ee.ubc.ca -- university of british columbia 
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<instance id="sci.space61543">
<answer instance="sci.space61543" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 okay, the earth has a magnetic field (unless someone missed something?) okay if you put a object in the earth magnetic field, it produces electricty.. no, if you put a conductor in a changing magnetic field, it produces a voltage. the two ways you can do that with a permanent magnet is to move the magnet or move the conductor. the slow shifting of the earth's magnetic field isn't really significant, especially when you consider how weak the earth's magnetic field is to begin with. now the question. can you use electricity to power a space/low earth orbit vehicle? and i fyou can, can you use the magnetic field of the earth to power it?? well, it would require generating an incredibly large magnetic field to repel the earth's magnetic field (as a magnet can repel another magnet). of course, this force only works in one direction, and the magnetic field generated has to be unimaginably powerful. magnetic repulsion drops off as 1/r^3, and the earth's magnetic field on the surface is already very weak. it would require some sort of unknown superconductor, and special nonmagnetic construction. and seriously hardenned electronics (optical computers, perhaps). and the physiological danger would be significant (due to the iron content in our blood, among other things). in other words, forget it. can the idea of a "dragless" satellite be used in part to create the electrical after all the dragless satellite is (i might be wrong), a suspended between to pilons, the the pilons compensate for drag.. i think i know what i want to say, just not sure how to say it.. a dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek a generator. i missed out on the "dragless satellite" thread, but it sounds totally bogus, from this little bit. *isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___ * * _____/_o_\_____ * twinkle, twinkle, little .sig, *(==(/_______\)==) * keep it less than 5 lines big. * \==\/ \/==/ 
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<instance id="sci.space61546">
<answer instance="sci.space61546" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 getting wierd again? okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts.. kind of liek the old mirv principle of old cold war days. basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions,namely different planets. each probe would be tied in with the mother ship (or earth as the case may be).. this is good when and if we go for mars (the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the i can't see the need for a single (big? expensive? heavy?) "mothership" except for voyager style flyby missions. a few years ago, i did some calculations on a "grand tour" space probe launched by a saturn v in 1975-76. at the time,i felt the idea of a big "mother ship" had some merit - the voyagers had to be rather small, lightweight craft due to the limitations imposed by using weak titan iii/centaur launchers. the concept i examined (and michael's?) had a lot in common with the british interplanetary society's daedalus project for sending a probe to barnard's star - i.e. a large "bus" spacecraft carrying several smaller probes to be dispatched when the ship arrives at its destination. the saturn v supposedly would have been able to launch a 10-ton payload towards jupiter and beyond. the "bus" could have included far more powerful cameras/telescopes/scientific equipment and a heavier/more powerful power source than the voyagers as there would be no limitations on weight anymore. extremely important as the voyagers had to perform most of their measurements within a couple of weeks before and after planetary encounter, and usually at a relatively great distance. the smaller probes carried aboard might have been based on the "real" voyagers, and an even smaller version like the one scheduled for launch towards pluto in the early 21st century, and would have been released at various points during the mission. the advantages are obvious: the bus would have carried out the same basic jupiter-saturn-uranus-neptune mission than voyager 2 did, but in addition two "sub-probes" could have been relased at saturn, examining that planet's south polar regions before moving on to pluto. this would have enabled nasa to map both hemispheres of pluto/charon by 1986...and several other probes could have examined parts of the jupiter/saturn/uranus/neptune systems that weren't examined in great detail by the voyagers due to trajectory-related factors. a small "swarm" of camera-equipped miniature space probes released a month before encounter would have been too costly for a small voyager-type mission but entirely feasible if launched from a heavy, well-equipped spacecraft. and would we have learned a lot more about the outer planets! the reason why the grand tour was cancelled was lack of money, of marcu$ michael adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- i'm not high, just jacked 
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<instance id="sci.space61547">
<answer instance="sci.space61547" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans. i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet. the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions. dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled, "habitable planets for man" (i think) in 1964. it should be available in most good libraries, or through inter-library loan. some more references: s.h. dole "habitable planets for man" blaisdell publishing company, new york (1964) i don't know if this can be found any more. m.j. fogg "extra-solar planetary systems: a microcomputer simulation" j. brit. interplanetary. soc., _38_, 501-514, (1985) "an estimate of the prevalence of biocompatible and habitable planets" j. brit. interplanetary. soc., _45_, 3-12, (1992) the first paper includes a detailed discussion of the physical conditions for habitability. ', ,',' | del cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,',' 
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<instance id="sci.space61550">
<answer instance="sci.space61550" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 why can't an aircraft be designed so that the pilot can always be maintained in a upright position, perpendicular to the plane of acceleration? with the visual helmets now being used that display some of the flight parameters and with a keyboard and manuvering equipment moving with the pilot, a pilot may be able to function at accelerations in excess of 12g. is anyone currently pursuing this area or is there a reason why this is impossible at the present time? walter a. wohlmuth walter@capone.ccsm.uiuc.edu u. of illinois @ urbana-champaign 
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<instance id="sci.space61551">
<answer instance="sci.space61551" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to pluto is to large and to expensive.. i'd hardly call the current pluto fast flyby proposal "too large" (if the new technology insertion currently taking place succeeds, the s/c mass will drop to 110-120 kg) or "too expensive" ($400 million [fy92 $] for two s/c), especially when compared to other nasa planetary missions. basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions,namely different planets. each probe would be tied in with the mother ship (or earth as the case may be).. this is good when and if we go for mars (the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the probes. this proposal would work only if your various targets are relaively nearby and the require minimal delta-v from the mother ship. a mission to the main belt might be one possibility for such a mission -- i recall a paper being presented at an aiaa deisgn conference in irvine in february where such a proposed spacecraft was designed by some grad students at ut austin (i think). four mini-spacecraft would detatch from the main s/c, each visiting a seperate asteroid and then returning to the main s/c. after analysis, the main s/c would then be targeted for the most "interesting" object for further study. now, if i could only *find* that paper... =) jeff foust [40 days!] "historical analogy is the last refuge senior, planetary science, caltech of people who can't grasp the current jafoust@cco.caltech.edu situation." -- from _red_mars_ by jeff@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov kim stanley robinson 
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<instance id="sci.space61552">
<answer instance="sci.space61552" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it's vandalism because many people -- power companies -- do maliciously waste light. "maliciously" implies evil intent. the lighting companies aren't going out of their way to spoil the sky. they just don't care. if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes 30 to 50 percent of its light, they make more _money_. never mind that your money is wasted. it is the responsibility of the customer to choose the most efficient hardware. if that's what your city will buy, that's what the lighting company will sell. write a letter to city hall. that's fine idea, but it only works if the lighting/power company even bothers to supply good light fixtures. for instance, a power company in virginia recently asked a state commission for permission to sell more lights of various type. yet, all of the different fixture that they sold and wanted to sell were bad designs - one that wasted the light. thus, you couldn't even buy a good light from them. in most places, to get a good light, you have to either order it special at high cost or call a store in arizona. at some point, society starts to make rules. cars have to pass safety tests. companies have to meet pollution standards, etc.. there are two ways to achieve this: educate the public so that they demand good lighting or force code down the lighting companies backs. history seems to suggest that the latter is more likely to work. please note that i'm not defending light pollution. the orignial focus of this thread was space based light sources. agreed, so i won't respond again. it's important for all you spacers out there to realize that some people will object to various wild ideas that have been presented. just like congress, it would be best to consult the astronomers/lovers of the night sky before you try some pr stunt to boost public knowledge about space. josh hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "find a way or make one." -attributed to hannibal bob bunge rbunge@access.digex.com 
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<instance id="sci.space61554">
<answer instance="sci.space61554" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 you mena in the same way french intelliegence agents steal documents from us corporate executives? 
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<instance id="sci.space61555">
<answer instance="sci.space61555" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 :>... also, as implied by other posters, why :>do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway? ... :you don't *need* to, but it's desirable. hst, like all satellites in :low earth orbit, is gradually losing altitude due to air drag. it was :deployed in the highest orbit the shuttle could reach, for that reason. :it needs occasional reboosting or it will eventually reenter. (it has :no propulsion system of its own.) has any thought been given as to how they are going to boost the hst yet? give it a push? i can see the push start cartoons now :-). kenneth ng please reply to ken@blue.njit.edu for now. "all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone's table" -- j.l. picard: st:tng 
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<instance id="sci.space61557">
<answer instance="sci.space61557" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 my data shows that the oms engines hold 10,900 kg of propellant. of that, a substantial fraction is going to be used for the first oms burn, the reentry burn and the reserve. so pat, tell us how much fuel the altitude change is going to take, and how much the edo pallet, bus-1 and extra parts are going mass. if you can make the numbers work out, _then_ i'll be interested. after you show us that it can be done, then tell us how much the edo pallet, bus-1 and extra equipment is going to cost. i don't know. does anyone in nasa land know how much fuel is budgeted for the altitude change? henry, any figures on the mass (full) for the edo pallet plus it's dry weight? how about for the dry mass of bus-1? it was being de-classified as i checked last. also, i need. 1) current orbital parameters of hst 2) projected orbital parameters after re-boost. 3) discovery's dry weight 4) hst's dry weight. i somehow think they could train up a new eva in 8 months. first, while astronauts certainly have done evas with minimal planning, that was because they _had_ to. they don't like to do that as a general rule. so how long do they need to train? a year? 2 years? somehow i think 2-3 moths should be adequate. second, remember why they had to improvise during intelsat 6? they were trying to attach a motor to a piece of hardware that wasn't designed to do that. trying to shortcut the training is only going to make a repeat more likely. also because they significantly lacked on-orbit eva experience. the hst is designed for on-orbit servicing. it should be a lot easier. third, they don't have eight months. they have however much time is left after someone comes up with a plan, shows it can work and gets it approved. you may think i have a pessimistic attitude. i think it's realistic. i'm not saying that the engineering task is impossible (few engineering tasks are). what i'm saying is that this is neither cost effective nor feasible under nasa there comes a time in every project, to kill the management. they can if neccessary, re-schedule the hst mission. december is not a drop dead date, unlike say the ldef retrieval mission. "all they have to do is soup it up?" just what does that mean? i suspect, the bus-1, may not have enough basic thrust for the hst re-boost. it mayu need bigger tanks, or bigger thrusters. my understanding is the second hst servicing mission is not a contingency. my understanding is the mission needs both a new foc and work on the electrical system, plus another re-boost. if the smt can avoid a second servicing mission that's $500 million no pat. that's $500 million minus the cost of the new hardware, minus the cost of the extra struff you want to bring along, minus development and mangement costs, minus extra operating costs. tanstaafl. somehow, i think the cost of an expendable smt will be less then $500 million. and the extra stuff is real cheap. nasa has lots of suits, mmu's, and the edo pallets are re-usable. oh, one double magnum of champagne, now there's a couple hundred bucks. pat, not only is this messy and less reliable than a device that's _made_ to perform this task, it also ignores the point. there is a desire to have astronauts available so that if the door fails to open, something can be done about it. unless you can provide a very reliable way of reopening the door, you haven't solved the problem. that door has cycled, x times already. once after massive g loading. i somehow think they can work ou;reliability methods to ensure the door works. also, please tell me how some sort of sublimated material like co2, or h2o would manage to contaminate the mirror, anything that goes to vapor state, shouldn't adhere to the mirror. somehow, the door, problem can be worked. maybe they can put a one time spring on it. what do they do now, if the door hangs up. that door is part of a intrument safing mechanism. if it hangs up tomorrow, it'll be 8 months until someone gets up there witha crowbar to fix it. 
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<instance id="sci.space61558">
<answer instance="sci.space61558" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 how difficult would it be to do a solar sail mission to say mercury? not much has been there and there is a 23?km/s delta v to eat off. could a solar sail, handle say adiscovery bus, and drop it into mercury orbit, good enough for rockets to put it into some form of polar orbit? 
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<instance id="sci.space61564">
<answer instance="sci.space61564" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 on sat, 1 may 1993 23:13:39 gmt, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (henry spencer) said: no. a "dragless" satellite does not magically have no drag; it burns fuel constantly to fight drag, maintaining the exact orbit it would have *if* there was no drag. well, almost. it turns out that clever orbital mechanics can engineer things so that resonant interactions with the higher order harmonics of the earth's gravitational field can pump energy into a satellite, and keep it from experiencing drag effects for periods of months to years. my favorite example of this is the soviet/russian heavy elint satellites of the cosmos 1603 class, which are in 14:1 resonance. in particular, c1833 has undergone two periods of prolonged *gain* in altitude, the current one having started in june 1991; the mean altitude of the satellite is now as high as it has ever been since launch on 18 march 1987. (looking at the elements for c1833 also shows the limitations of norad's software -- but that's another story.) this probably has little relevance to space stations, since the 71 degree orbits of the c1603 satellites are at 850 km, which is unacceptably far into the inner van allen belt for manned platforms. but it's kind of interesting from the point of view of the physics of the (orbital elements for these satellites are available on request.) allen thomson saic mclean, va is there an opinion here? if so, it's mine, not saic's 
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<instance id="sci.space61566">
<answer instance="sci.space61566" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm afraid i was not able to find the gifs... is the list updated weekly, perhaps, or am i just missing something? (_ ( ) (__________) melissa sherrin perky@acs.bu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space61567">
<answer instance="sci.space61567" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 that's fine idea, but it only works if the lighting/power company even bothers to supply good light fixtures. for instance, a power company in virginia recently asked a state commission for permission to sell more lights of various type. yet, all of the different fixture that they sold and wanted to sell uh, why do they have to ask a state commision? unless the state's buying... such a process will only increace the overhead to the power company of selling different types of light, and will decreace the likleihood that they will do so. and any efficient lights they might have been planning in the future, go down the drain..... were bad designs - one that wasted the light. thus, you couldn't even buy a good light from them. in most places, to get a good light, you have to either order it special at high cost or call a store in arizona. you could order it special. if enough people did so, it would be low cost. last i checked, you could use ups to buy stuff in arizona before going there. finally, i'm sure your state has things like small factories and machine shops. you could go into business making lights that are cheaper to use (thanks to their higher efficiency and the fact that they aren't wasting energy on broadcasting to space) and therefore _better_ than the old style... at some point, society starts to make rules. cars have to pass safety tests. five year plans have to be enacted or the planning for the economy will fall apart. companies have to meet pollution standards, etc.. as if the clean air act really cleaned up the air... there are two ways to achieve this: educate the public so that they demand good lighting or force code down the lighting companies backs. history seems to suggest that the latter is more likely to work. _my_ *experience* seems to suggest that you're trying too hard to *educate* them (with the same methods used in american schools to make any subject whatsoever as relevant and boring as proto-ugric) instead of *selling* them on the idea. agreed, so i won't respond again. it's important for all you spacers out there to realize that some people will object to various wild ideas that have been presented. just like congress, it would be best to consult the astronomers/lovers of the night sky before you try some pr stunt to boost public knowledge about space. well, wake up. space is becoming a field of human endeavor instead of just something we can look at from a long long way away. there are practical space projects that could conceivably (although probably not) cause lots of light pollution, and have been argued against on those grounds, even though they might open up such possibilities, that people could vacation on mars if they wanted really dark skies... bob bunge rbunge@access.digex.com phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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<instance id="sci.space61568">
<answer instance="sci.space61568" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |> [description of boeing study of two-staged spaceplane using |> supersonic ramjets deleted.] |> in other words, boeing is not seriously thinking about |> reliable, less-expensive access to orbit. they just like |> to fool around with exotic airplanes. no, it means that boeing has something called foresight and vision... boeing became the success it is today by working on what you call "exotic airplanes". 
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<instance id="sci.space61569">
<answer instance="sci.space61569" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 all consipiracy theories aside, (they are watching though :-)), will nasa try to image the cydonia region of mars where the "face " is? if they can image it with the high resolution camera, it would settle the face question once and for all. i mean, with a camera that will have a pixel resolution of about 6 feet, we'd know whether all this stuff is real or imagination. come on jpl and nasa folks, try to image it and settle this thing. gene@jackatak.raider.net (gene wright) ------------jackatak.raider.net (615) 377-5980 ------------ 
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<instance id="sci.space62113">
<answer instance="sci.space62113" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 its seems a bit scarry to me that such a project which for the first time in years promisses some hope in changing the current trend in massively overpriced boosting capability, lacks much publicity... the people involved in it have been building hardware rather than writing press releases. this is not a high-manpower project; they don't *have* spare people sitting around. as i understand it, there has also been some feeling on the part of some of the project management that publicity was not a good idea. a lot of people have been working on changing this view, with some success. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space62115">
<answer instance="sci.space62115" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 has someone scanned in an artist's rendering of aurora? if so, is the gif available somewhere? please reply via email. |craig keithley |"if looks could kill, they probably will. | |apple computer, inc. |in games without frontiers, war without tears" | |keithley@apple.com |peter gabriel, third album (1980) | 
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<instance id="sci.space62118">
<answer instance="sci.space62118" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 what is nasa's annual budget? this year will do, a few years back wpuld be nice too but i need this item fast so emails off the top of your head very much appreciated (faqs vanish here!). -tony ryan, "astronomy & space", new international magazine, available from: astronomy ireland, p.o.box 2888, dublin 1, ireland. 6 issues (one year sub.): uk 10.00 pounds, us$20 surface (add us$8 airmail). access/visa/mastercard accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). (world's largest astro. soc. per capita - unless you know better? 0.034%) up another notch as of end april 1993!-----^ tel: 0891-88-1950 (uk/n.ireland) 1550-111-442 (eire). cost up to 48p per min 
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<instance id="sci.space62126">
<answer instance="sci.space62126" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i'm replying to someone who asked for information on space camp. i have a brochure that has all different schedules. what age, what level and what program do you want to know the schedule of? most of the missions are 5 to 8 days long. the address for huntsville is: alabama space science exhibit commission u.s. space and rocket center one tranquility base, huntsville, al 35807 ******** why are we here, what does it mean *********************?? 
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<instance id="sci.space62127">
<answer instance="sci.space62127" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 here is a potentially dumb question: what prevents the martian landers themselves from "polluting" the martian environment with earth based critters? is the long trip in cold radiation bathed space enough to completely sterilize the landers? i could imagine that a few teeny microbes could manage to get all the way there unharmed, and then possibly thrive given the right gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet!jericho!gord gord%jericho@uunet.uu.net or even some days 
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<instance id="sci.space62317">
<answer instance="sci.space62317" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 next gps launch is scheduled for june 24th. * origin: no. va astronomy club 703-256-4777 (1:109/118) 
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<instance id="sci.space62373">
<answer instance="sci.space62373" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 having tracked sci.space for quite a while, i have some questions about a mysterious figure called henry spencer. if there is anything going on in the space community, he seems to know it. the questions are somewhat tounge-in-cheek: 1) is sci.space a hobby or a job for you? 1) do you ever eat or sleep? 3) does u of toronto zoology department conduct space research? or do you just use an account there? just curious. well, henry spencer is *also* responsible for parts of cnews, and other internet related things. quite a guy. :) onya henry! this question comes up frequently enough that there should be a faq about it... thierry lach curlie!thierry@sycom.mi.org #include "std.disclaimer" "sufficiently superior technology is indistingushable from magic" 
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<instance id="sci.space62385">
<answer instance="sci.space62385" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 if by chance you answered my request for neo asteroids in the last two days please send them to me directly. i by mistake deleted instead of read all the space-request messages . thanks and sorry. harry g. osoff science & technology editor access news network jukebox@mcimail.com 
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<instance id="sci.space62386">
<answer instance="sci.space62386" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 the most revealing comparison between shuttle and soyuz is cost. all other comparisons are apples and oranges. --- maximus 2.01wb i like this statement, though for my own reasons. cost comparisons depend a lot on whether the two options are similar, and *then* it becomes very revealing to consider what their differences are. can soyuz launch the long exposure facility? course not. will the shuttle take my television relay to leo by year's end? almost certainly not, but the russians are pretty good about making space accessible on a tight schedule. comparing s and ss points up that there are two active space launcher-and-work-platform resources, with similarities and differences. where they are in direct competition, we may get to see some market economics come into play. my employer's opinions are not my own. i am self-employed. 
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<instance id="sci.space62387">
<answer instance="sci.space62387" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 this "reverse the polarity!" crap always bugged the hell out of me, too, until i found an actual, live, real-life example of it working! i quote from aviation week and space technology for 2 july 1990, page 25: he [colonel charles f. stirling, speaking of the problem of fuel bubble formation in titan 4 aerojet lr87 engines] said engineers at nasa's jet propulsion laboratory had run into the same problem and suggested that the air force look at the effect of aerozene 50 decomposition. the fix, now flown three times without incident, was to reverse the inlet and outlet portions of the hot gas cooler. ! once again, life imitates art. how about the discussion of the sts tether experiment. ran forward, it would suck energy from the earth's magnetic field, while trivially slowing the shuttle. it could also have run backward -- if they ran electricity through the tether the other way, it would have trivially propelled the shuttle faster. but an even better example comes to mind. there's this electronics guy, someone like craig anderton or don lancaster. ten years ago he wrote about an invention of his. he could take a light-detector, run current through it at about a hundred times its rating, and it would glow. he got legal rights to this design of a combination "fiber optic emitter/receiver". this turned out to be the basic unit of att's (i think) plan to bring brazil's communications system into the 21st century. (the article was mostly about his legal wranglings with the company that eventually got him well-compensated for his invention.) (yes that's my real name) (my employer's opinion's are not my own.) (i am self-employed) 
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<instance id="sci.space62389">
<answer instance="sci.space62389" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i know about the phone numbers, etc. to get kennedy/canaveral launch information, but is there any equivalent way of finding out about launches at vandenberg? bear in mind that a lot of the vandenberg launch traffic is military and at least semi-secret. they aren't interested in publicizing it beforehand. svr4 resembles a high-speed collision | henry spencer @ u of toronto zoology between svr3 and sunos. - dick dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry 
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<instance id="sci.space62394">
<answer instance="sci.space62394" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 on sat, 15 may 1993 01:45:54 gmt, hansk@aie.nl (hans kinwel) said: hans> as somebody replied on whether the space shuttle is connected to hans> usenet: "no. of course the main flow of information would be up, hans> unless henry spencer would be aboard, in which case the main hans> flow of information would be down." gene miya says that henry will never go aloft in the shuttle; the payload bay isn't big enough for his chocolate chip cookies. when henry was here at dryden, he was looking pretty covetously at the sr-71s and the f-104s, even though they don't have much cookie space. i guess he figured that he could manage for a short flight.... mary shafer dod #0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility, edwards, ca shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov of course i don't speak for nasa "a mig at your six is better than no mig at all." unknown us fighter pilot 
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<instance id="sci.space62398">
<answer instance="sci.space62398" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 it is interesting to note in the past few days' correspondance that some believe that poor old new mexico is not capable of hosting a commercial space launch business. for many reasons, it can, and we here on the front lines see no reason why it should not. the 'spaceport political publicity' referred to the other day had its intended effect - the state of new mexico did establish the start of the necessary government infrastructure to back a commercial space port. the commanding general at wsmr is in full support of dual-use for the facilities. the wsmr location also has some strategic advantages in the form of necessary infrastructure and controlled air space to support the project. just because the folks involved have not done the traditional aerospace-equivalent of vapor-ware by inviting folks out to kick non-existent tires but have been merely doing their job to prepare for launch, don't think that nothing has happened. from my interactions with the macdac folks, i get the impression that they want to set a firm, believable launch date based on vehicle readiness and not just some fiction to plug a space on a calendar. i believe that all will happen this summer and don't worry, the locals here are planning to let everyone know when it does occur. stephen horan shoran@nmsu.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space62399">
<answer instance="sci.space62399" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in the new york times on sunday may 9th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called "space marketing" in atlanta, georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising. there was an editorial about this in the times the following are others as upset about this as i am? i feel that a global boycott of anyone involved with such a project would be a good idea. perhaps it could be made illegal in various countries around the world? do others agree? [relevant messages found on the net:] newsgroups: sci.space organization: hks, inc. distribution: world if you don't want to see space marketing put up orbiting billboards, write them, or call them, and tell them so. you might also write your congresspeople. space marketing can be reached at: attn: mike lawson public relations dept. space marketing 1495 atmbree rd., suite 600 rosewell, ga 30076 (404)-442-9682 peter webb webb@hks.com hibbitt, karlsson & sorensen, inc. voice: 401-727-4200 1080 main st, pawtucket ri 02860 fax: 401-727-4208 [alternatively, you could try to find out who their clients will be and tell *them* how you feel.] newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,sci.misc,sci.environment,talk.environment organization: digital equipment corporation dave crawford (crawford@noao.edu), executive director of the international dark-sky association (ida), sent me information on where you can write in regards to the proposed "billboards in the sky" and asked me to post it: karen brown center for the study of commercialism 1875 connecticut avenue, suite 300 washington, d.c. 20009-5728 u.s.a. telephone: 202-797-7080 fax: 202-265-4954 please note that i have no involvement whatsoever with the csc. larry klaes klaes@verga.enet.dec.com or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes or - klaes%verga.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com or - klaes%verga.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net "all the universe, or nothing!" - h. g. wells ejasa editor, astronomical society of the atlantic newsgroups: sci.space distribution: sci organization: nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office x-newsreader: tin [version 1.1 pl8] x-posted-from: algol.jsc.nasa.gov : that's roughly akin to saying let's let anaconda strip-mine : the grand canyon so that strip-mining can boldly go where no : strip mining technology has gone before .. because after all, : mining means profits, and profits mean technological advance- : ment, and technogical advancement means prosperity, and pros- : perity means happiness, and so to hell with the grand canyon .. space advertisement in low earth orbit is very short term -- on the order of a few years before the orbit decays. (higher orbits last longer.) advertisers will certainly be aware of the environmental aspects of their advertising. fred's argument is roughly akin to saying that it's bad to cut down trees, so we shouldn't advertise in newspapers. think that through, fred. picture this: our space billboard is a large inflatable structure, filled with "bio-degradable" foam instead of gas. it scoops up space debris as it orbits, thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes at the same time. because of the large drag coefficient, it will de-orbit -- safely burning up -- within a embedded in the foam structure is a small re-entry vehicle, which does not burn up during entry. it contains the electronics and propulsion system (which may be refurbished and re-used) as well as space science experiments proposed and built by high school students in advertiser-sponsored science fairs. advertisers buy time on the billboard, whose surface is made up of tiny mirrors controlled by the avionics package. the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors to reflect different messages at different parts of the globe. clever programming allows different languages to every country. during orbital night, the mirrors turn perpendicular to the surface, and small lights are revealed. the lights spell out messages for all to see. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july 1969, a.d. we came in peace for all mankind." 
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<instance id="sci.space62400">
<answer instance="sci.space62400" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 in the new york times on sunday may 9th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called "space marketing" in atlanta, georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising. there was an editorial about this in the times the following i realy like this idea, it would be wonderfull to see such a big bright satelite on the night sky. i will even promise to try to buy whatever product it advertises to help this project. please write to space marketing and encourage this project. i sadly dosent have enough money to invest in it. congresspeople. space marketing can be reached at: attn: mike lawson public relations dept. space marketing 1495 atmbree rd., suite 600 rosewell, ga 30076 (404)-442-9682 space advertisement in low earth orbit is very short term -- on the order of a few years before the orbit decays. (higher orbits last longer.) advertisers will certainly be aware of the environmental aspects of their advertising. fred's argument is roughly akin to saying that it's bad to cut down trees, so we shouldn't advertise in newspapers. think that through, fred. picture this: our space billboard is a large inflatable structure, filled with "bio-degradable" foam instead of gas. it scoops up space debris as it orbits, thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes at the same time. because of the large drag coefficient, it will de-orbit -- safely burning up -- within a embedded in the foam structure is a small re-entry vehicle, which does not burn up during entry. it contains the electronics and propulsion system (which may be refurbished and re-used) as well as space science experiments proposed and built by high school students in advertiser-sponsored science fairs. advertisers buy time on the billboard, whose surface is made up of tiny mirrors controlled by the avionics package. the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors to reflect different messages at different parts of the globe. clever programming allows different languages to every country. during orbital night, the mirrors turn perpendicular to the surface, and small lights are revealed. the lights spell out messages for all to see. -- ken jenks, nasa/jsc/gm2, space shuttle program office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july 1969, a.d. we came in peace for all mankind." magnus redin lysator academic computer society redin@lysator.liu.se mail: magnus redin, rydsv{gen 240c26, 582 51 link|ping, sweden phone: sweden (0)13 260046 (answering machine) and (0)120 13706 
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<instance id="sci.space62403">
<answer instance="sci.space62403" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 i don't think that idea means what you think it does. having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency's "poor taste" *is* an abomination. well, we already suffer from street hoardings. if you don't watch tv, you are free of commercials there, but if you want to go from a to b you cannot escape beer ads. us loathe it. i'd rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred by a giant billboard, and i'll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious to an astronomer like sagan. i think the right time to stop this proposal is now. if this idea goes through, it's the thin end of the wedge. soon companies will be doing larger, and more permanant, billboards in the sky. i wouldn't want a world a few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas. that would _really_ make me sad. coca cola company will want to paint the moon red and white. (well, if not this moon, then a moon of jupiter). microscum will want to name a galaxy `microscum galaxy'. where do we draw the line? historically mankind is not very good at drawing fine lines. i'm normally extremely enthusiastic about all forms of resource allocation for space research; i think it's the most important investment possible for mankind in the long run. but this is not the way to get the money. ajay shah, (213)749-8133, ajayshah@rcf.usc.edu 
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<instance id="sci.space62405">
<answer instance="sci.space62405" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |no if you're fred hoyle. he rejects the big bang, and proposes an infinitely |old universe (*really*), so in his model life *always* starts on a given planet |by seeding from outer space - there has *always* been life somewhere. didn't fred hoyle abandon the steady state theory? bruce watson (wats@scicom.alphacdc.com) 
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<instance id="sci.space62408">
<answer instance="sci.space62408" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 |had.' and went on to mention that in aviation if you are found |with an adjustable spanner in your tool box you can be fired. an |adjustable spanner by trying to fit all nuts, fits none of them |properly, and so damages all of them. in the demanding environment of |the air the adjustable wrench is rightly considered a lethal instrument. what i recall from air craft maintence. torqque and safety wires or cotters were more important, then if some bolt face were nicked up. if it was in bad shape you replaced it with another $30, aircraft grade bolt. i can see adjustable spanners eating up profit, but lives? 
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</instance>
<instance id="sci.space62414">
<answer instance="sci.space62414" senseid="sci.space"/>
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 having tracked sci.space for quite a while, i have some questions about a mysterious figure called henry spencer. if there is anything going on in the space community, he seems to know it. the questions are somewhat tounge-in-cheek: 1) is sci.space a hobby or a job for you? 1) do you ever eat or sleep? 3) does u of toronto zoology department conduct space research? or do you just use an account there? just curious. my god! you dare posting! i posed these very questions to mr spencer some time ago by email. unfortunately i never received any response. well, imho (and i am just a nobody net.user) henry spencer is to sci.* as kibo is to alt.* and rec.*.... ....but i could be wrong...(did anybody mention the illuminati) conan the librarian a.k.a. kitten /\ /\ a.k.a. barbara ann trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu {=.=} "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" ~ "summmmmmmmmmmertimmmmmmmmmme....and the livin' is easy" gg 
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<instance id="sci.space62415">
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 if this idea goes through, it's the thin end of the wedge. soon companies will be doing larger, and more permanant, billboards in the sky. i wouldn't want a world a few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas. that would _really_ make me sad. think for a moment about the technology required to do that. by the time they could make the earth's sky look like las vegas, the people could afford to go backpacking on the moon. round trip costs for 500 kg to the moon would be about the same as 5000 kg in a low earth "advertising" orbit: very roughly the same cost as a smallish billboard, therefore. if such ads were to become common place, that would have to be a very low price... this is nonsense. its like saying that by the time commercials on television become commonplace every citizen will have their own hour long nationally broadcast tv program. there's always been a problem of having to get away from civilization before you can really find "natural" scenery. 100 years ago, this usually didn't take a trip of over 5 miles. today, most people would have to go 100 miles or more. if we ever get to the point where we have billboards on orbit, that essentially means that no place on earth is still "wild." while that may or may not be a good thing, the orbital billboards aren't the problem: they are just a symptom of growing, densely-populated civilization. banning such ads will not save your view of the night sky, because by the time such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble finding a place without street lights, where you can _see_ the stars... the rest of your post is strange mishmash of "its already really bad" and "it doesn't really matter if it gets worse." you should try to figure out what you are really arguing for. (kneejerk anti-environ- mentalism?) p.s. a passing sattelite does not have the same effect on visible light astronomy as an object as bright as the full moon. 
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 |>report called it the science of order, but that's probably pomposity. |it is, however, now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration |of fractals, strange attractors, and artificial life. whether important |insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown, but it does |tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract |deductive field. how do you do experiments in mathematics? well ... have a look at a new journal: journal of experimental mathematics it has several fields medallists on its editorial board. you want to knwo more? try klaus peters in boston or david epstein at warwick . deep ideas are simple. odd groups are even. even simples are not. 
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 others said: # >coca cola company will want to paint the moon red and white. (well, # >if not this moon, then a moon of jupiter)... this reminds me of the old arthur c. clarke story about the coca cola ad stashed inside an experiment. a host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(301) 56-linux unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 
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 |it is, however, now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration |of fractals, strange attractors, and artificial life. whether important |insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown, but it does |tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract |deductive field. how do you do experiments in mathematics? nowadays, usually with a computer. no theory predicted the numeric discoveries listed above. no one can yet write an algorithm that will predict the precise behavior of any of these at any precise level of their evolution. so it remains for experimenters to gather data on their gary coffman ke4zv | you make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary destructive testing systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 shannon way | guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary lawrenceville, ga 30244 | | 
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 i can see it now emblazened across the evening sky -- this space for rent 
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 i don't think that idea means what you think it does. having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency's "poor taste" *is* an abomination. (abomination : n. loathing; odious or degrading habit or act; an object of disgust. (oxford concise dictionary)) maybe *you* don't mind having every part of your life saturated with commercials, but many of us loathe it. while i'm sure sagan considers it sacrilegious, that wouldn't be because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. modern, ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: the opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based telescopes. in any case, a bright point of light passing through the field doesn't ruin observations. if that were the case, the thousands of existing satellites would have already done so (satelliets might not seem so bright to the eyes, but as far as astronomy is concerned, they are extremely bright.) frank crary cu boulder tell that to the people who run the 10-meter keck telescope, or the astronomers and engineers working on the gemini twin 8-meter telescope project. it took 7 years to build keck i and now they are building keck ii. according to the december 1992 sky & telescope, "this second 10-meter eye will convert the facility into a binocular telescope with double the light-gathering power and the ability to resolve the headlights of a car some 25,000 kilometers away." japan's 8.3-meter subaru telescope will soon join keck on mauna kea. all these telescopes will work in the infrared, yes, but they are _visible light_ telescopes! and haven't you heard anything about adaptive optics? a lot of research was done with "star wars" funding, and some is now being shared with astronomers. this shows great promise. soon, probably within a few years, even the largest telescopes will be able to resolve to their theoretical limit _despite_ the distortions of the atmosphere. to say that "visible light astronomy is already a dying field" is pure hokum. to use the "logic" that things are already bad, so it doesn't matter if it gets worse is absurd. maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields. george krumins pufferfish observatory |^^^^^\^^^^| the universe had its origin gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ^^^/\ \^^^ in two hockeysticks colliding "home of the hockeystick /_/ \_\ memorial telescope" 
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 we're talking about an orbiting ad here, not some little point of light that puts a streak or two on a photograph. it should have been clear that anything used for advertisement is going to be a bit larger than a point source. even if this was not clear there's a previous post on this topic that makes it clear: message-id: <fox.93may15223005@graphics.nyu.edu> sender: notes@cmcl2.nyu.edu (notes person) nntp-posting-host: graphics.cs.nyu.edu organization: courant institute of mathematical sciences lines: 132 in the new york times on sunday may 9th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called "space marketing" in atlanta, georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising. from the description i've read, it's prob. only going to be as bright as jupiter. anything else is probably hype from the opponents or wishful thinking from the sponsors. if we could do something as bright as the full moon that soon, that cheap, the cis would have done it already. phil fraering |"number one good faith! you convert, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. mahen missionary 
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 [deleted] is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on "space advertising" when those children are starving? perhaps some redistribution of wealth would help them ... not to flame (really), but thats an abominable viewpoint (while were on the subject of abominations). if we followed the "redistiribution of wealth" (and by the way, ist that what clinto and the democrats are trying to do...), everyone would starve in short order. not only is it impossoble to organize a fair distribution that depends on every (wo)man's altruism (can you say black market under communisim anyone?), but the current methods of resource production are entirely energy dependant. there are not enough sources of cheap capital (aside from human capital) to allow us to stop looking at space a an excellent source of materials and realestate. more directly, perhaps you mioght consider the fact that billions are spent by tv companies, and their sponsors, (abc, nbc, cbs...) on the superbowl, the olympics, and even on monday night baseball games. perhaps we should boycott those games? if dc-x and company get finished, and there is a market for it, those "abominable" space will probably be much more cost effective for the companies, and those starving children. more people buy products, the company hires more workers, end result fewer children die of starvation. ->polar caps<- or tfv0@lehigh.edu student konsultant making the world safe for computing! "never before have we owed so little to so many..."- r.t.folk "one must not confuse john dunne's famous quote `no man is an island' with new york telephone's `we're all connected'" - dad 
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 for some reasons we humans think that it is our place to control everything. i doubt that space advertising is any worse than any other kind advertising, but it will be a lot harder to escape, and is probably the most blatant example yet of our disregard for the fact that we are not in fact creaters of the universe. annoying little species, aren't we? dan gaubatz (dgaubat1@cc.swarthmore.edu) itty bitty programmer guy the geometry forum swarthmore college 
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 adaptation trainer (pat). dr. harm here at msc (oops, i mean jsc) now is that an aptly named person or what? when i went thru all the spinning chair tests at jsc the phd in charge was milt reshke but the technician who strapped me in and, on occasion, inserted the "probe" (needle) was named bev bloodworth. 
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<instance id="sci.space62478">
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 if anybody has a strong claim to control of the the night sky, it is astronomers. check out the common law. in the days when wild lands weren't scarce, pioneers laid claim to the land by putting it to use, eg clearing and growing a crop. even trespassers can lay claim to the right of passage if if they've done it for long enough and the owners have not complained or taken steps to stop them. usage begets property rights. astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands of years -- they own it. (eg light polluters), they will lose their common-law right of ownership. another consequence of their ownership is that they are free to sell it. now, astronomers need money for their work. if light polluting billboards and mirrors go up, they will need even more money to buy extra image processing equipment, filters, space telescopes etc. to get around the problem. so, as long as we can define who "astronomers" are (eg do "they" include amateur astronomers? nature lovers?) we can set up a system of voluntary consensus to solve this dispute, instead invoking bans, regulations, etc. enforced by bribed politicians at the point of a gun (why do folks always think of that sordid solution, "we ought to pass a law", to solve problems first instead of as a last resort when other methods have failed?) [stuff deleted] this proposal certainly needs work, but how about working on these kind of ideas first before writing "there ought to be a law" letters to our congresscritters: let's give noncoercive consensus, via the free market, a chance to solve this problem. jim hart jhart@agora.rain.com would mr. hart please explain how one could get every nation on earth and every corporation to agree that astronomers own the night sky without `coercion'. remember that not every nation follows the english common law. in most countries, for most of history, it was probably true that the rulers `owned' everything not explicitly owned by individuals. even in north america, where by the principle enunciated, the aboriginal inhabitants should have owned everything, when new arrivals wanted to use land and resources, they just took it over. in case mr. hart hasn't noticed, there is currently a brutal war going on in bosnia about who owns what. of course, if some friendly super power were to give an international astronomy organization some anti-satelite missiles and also agree to defend it if attacked, such a proposal might work, but it would hardly be non-coercive. some of us nutty environmentalists think it might make sense first to try to mobilize public opinion against advertising in space and also to use governmental actions (like taxing power, for example) to discourage them. this of course would be too coercive for mr. hart. leonard evens len@math.nwu.edu 708-491-5537 dept. of mathematics, northwestern univ., evanston, il 60208 
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 hello netters, i'm new to this board and i thought this might be the best place for my post. i have a question regarding satellite technology seen in the movie patriot games. in the movies, the cia utilizes its orbitting sats to pinpoint a specific terrorist camp in n africa. the photos taken by the sats are stunning! i know that sats are capable of photographing the license plates of vehicles. my question is this: the camp in question was taken out by the british sas. and while the sas was in action, the cia team was watching in the warroom back in langley, va. the action of the sas was clear and appeared to be relayed via a sat. the action was at night and the photography appeared to be an x-ray type. that is, one could see the action within the tents/structures of the camp. does such techology exist and what is it's nature? i.e., uv, ir, x-ray, etc. ps who wrote the book patriot games? mad vlad 
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 astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands of years -- they own it. if they don't complain now against scenic trespassers (eg light polluters), they will lose their common-law right of ownership. is english (american, canadian, etc.) common law recognized as legally binding under international law? after all, we're talking about something that by its very nature isn't limited to the territory of one doug loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu 
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 if you think you may have some problems you may want to make it stand up on the side so that the gees won't affect too much the writing on the disk or on the hard disk.... hmm. i would think being on edge would be *worse*, since that might make the tracks unsymmetrical around the spindle due to the sideways force on the head. older drives used to tell you to reformat if you were going to stand the drive on edge; at 3+g, this side force might even be a problem for new drives. well it seemed to work for the mac ii installation i was talking about. oh yeah there is something i forgot to mention : even though you're not suppposed to have water around, there is some condenstion d dripping from the roof of the plane make sure that your hardware is covered. make also sure that your keyboards are protected from the two-phase flow coming out of sick people. it happened to us..... good luck. igor carron texas a&m university 
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 a staffer just told me an interesting story about dc-x. an air force costing team just looked at the dc-x (now called the dc-x1 btw) and gave an estimate on how much it would cost the air force to build it. it cost sdio $70m to build and it would cost the usaf: $320 million or four and a half times as much. i'd be willing to bet that a majority of the cost difference could be accounted for by the af's requirement for superfluous 2167 documentation, 5 or 6 huge requirements and design reviews, travel expenses flying personnel around to meetings, and over specifying the hardware. i doubt that the actual fabrication cost in materials and labor would be very different from sdio's costs. of course, this is my cynical opinion based on years of watching the government procurement process try to cover up a lack of creativity and innovation with reams of documentation. ;) 
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 according to the person i talked to, the proposed "billboard" will be too small to resolve with the naked eye -- so small and visually unimportant... anyway, he suggested that the visual impact would approximate that of a jumbo jet at 45k feet (12km) altitude. are you sure he didn't tailor his comments according to what he guessed you wanted to hear? in other words, lie? think about it - what good would a billboard do for an advertiser if nobody can see it? who would advertise, telescope companies? pretty narrow audience here. 
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 when i do programs, i spend about half the time talking about absitinence [...] i find that most people who object to sex education actually object to the teaching *anything* other than abstinencne, and that imo is just as irresponsible as only talking about comdom use. i'm under the impression that most sex ed instructors and/or policy makers actually object to making any more than a passing reference to abstinence, wishing to spend time only on the "realistic" choices. in the "sex ed" portion of the high school "health" course i took in 1984, it was impressed that the only 100% positive way to *not* get pregnant was to *not* have sex. other methods of contraception were discussed, in the framework of a chart which showed both the _expected_ failure rate (theoretical, assumes no mistakes) and the _actual_ failure rate (based on research). top of the chart was something like this: method expected actual ------ failure rate failure rate abstinence 0% 0% and nfp (natural family planning) was on the bottom. the teacher even said, "i've had some students tell me that they can't use anything for birth control because they're catholic. well, if you're not married and you're a practicing catholic, the *top* of the list is your slot, not the *bottom*. even if you're not religious, the top of the list is safest." yes, this was a public school and after dr koop's "failing abstinence, use a condom" statement on the prevention of aids. #include <stdisclaimer> // jenk@microsoft.com // msdos testing 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20362">
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 hi... i'm new to this group, and maybe this has been covered already, but does anybody out there see the current emphasis on the environment being turned (unintentionally, of course) into i've debated this quite a bit, and while i think a legitimate concern for the planet is a great thing, i can easily see it being perverted into something dangerous. as evidence, may i quote the wall street journal (of all things!), april 2 (editorial page): "we suspect that's because one party to the (environmental) dispute thinks the earth is sanctified. it's clear that much of the environmentalist energy is derived from what has been called the religious left, a secular, or even pagan fanaticism that now worships such gods as nature and gender with a reverence formerly accorded real religions." (emphasis mine). thoughts? reactions? harangues? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20363">
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 i am fairly new to this group. i was wondering about people's opinions on ethical uses of the net, and of technology in general. the classic references in this area are jacques ellul for a liberal/evangelical perspective and os guiness for a straight evangelical view. if you want to look at non-christian sources try alvin toffler as the perennial optimist. his views while blatently non christian explore where technology may be going. for example, there are some chain letters going around which claim to have been written by a christian missionary, but which present a misleading image of the christian religion. this is regardless of technology. be careful to separate the issues of related to speed and dispersion of technology (how far the letter went and how quickly it got there) and the message being passed in the technology (something that seems to be totally wrong.) how can we help to make best use of computer technology ? when lecturing in this area i challenge my (non-christan/atheistic) class about the impact technology has on life, quality of life and the rights that they consider important. depending on how you work out your faith will determine your response to the use of technology. for example friends of mine are considering ivf due to a life threatening situation the wife is going through; when it is over they will have the baby. (god willing). in this case the technology is available and my friends have to decide what to do. in all cases though you must decide if the technology is against god's revealed word. david morgan| university of technology sydney | morgan@socs.uts.edu.au _--_|\ | po box 123 broadway nsw 2007 | ph: + 61 2 330 1864 / \ | 15-73 broadway sydney | fax: +61 2 330 1807 \_.--._/ "i paid good money to get my opinions; you get them for free" v 
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 therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. matthew 18:4 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20489">
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 [a very nice article on the dss, which i thought answered david cruz-uribe's original queries quite well] here are some books i have read recently that helped me not only prepare for a 5 week series i taught in sunday school, but greatly increased my knowledge of the qumran scrolls. [...] one other recent book i would heartily recommend is joseph fitzmyer's _response to 101 questions about the dead sea scrolls_ (paulist, 1992). fitzmyer is one of the preeminent modern nt scholars. he was also one of the early workers on the dss. his book is written in a straightforward q&a that allows it to serve as a source for a great wealth of clearly presented basic, up-to-the-moment information about the dss. (this book is something of a companion volume to raymond brown's _response to 101 questions about the dead sea scrolls_.) pop quiz: what's wrong with the cover of this book? ;) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20490">
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 i would like the opinion of netters on a subject that has been bothering my wife and me lately: liturgy, in particular, catholic liturgy. in the last few years it seems that there are more and more ad hoc events during mass. it's driving me crazy! the most grace-filled aspect of a liturgical tradition is that what happens is something we _all_ do together, because we all know how to do it. led by the priest, of course, which makes it a kind of dialogue we present to god. but the best masses i've been to were participatory prayers. lately, i think the proportion of participation has fallen, and the proportion of sitting there and watching, or listening, or generally being told what to do (which is necessary because no one knows what's happening next) is growing. example. last sunday (palm sunday) we went to the local church. usually on palm sunday, the congregation participates in reading the passion, taking the role of the mob. the theology behind this seems profound--when we say "crucify him" we mean it. we did it, and if he came back today we'd do it again. it always gives me chills. but last week we were "invited" to sit during the gospel (=passion) and _listen_. besides the orwellian "invitation", i was really saddened to have my (and our) little role taken away. this seems typical of a shift of participation away from the people, and toward the musicians, readers, and so on. new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what's happening, the new things have to be explained, and pretty soon instead of _doing_ a lot of the mass we're just sitting there listening (or spacing out, in my case) to how the mass is about to be done. in my mind, i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay "experts", but that may not be just. i do think that a liturgy committee has a bias toward doing something rather than nothing--that's just a fact of bureaucratic life--even though a simpler liturgy may in fact make it easier for people to be aware of the lord's presence. so we've been wondering--are we the oddballs, or is the quality of the mass going down? i don't mean that facetiously. we go to mass every thursday or friday and are reminded of the power of a very simple liturgy to make us aware of god's presence. but as far as the obligatory sunday masses...maybe i should just offer it up :) has anyone else noticed declining congregational participation in catholic masses lately? john murray 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20491">
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 regarding david wilkerson's prophecies. while i'm not real sure of his credibility, i do remember a book he wrote, called a vision or something like that. he made a prediction that people who bought gold would be hurt financially. at the time, gold was up to about $800; now it is less than half that. this prediction stuck in my mind because a lot of people where i worked were buying gold. the problem is, we tend to remember predictions that come true and forget ones that didn't (a la jean dixon). does anyone know if there any of his predictions, perhaps from the book i mentioned, that can pretty definitely be said to have not come true? -fred gilham gilham@csl.sri.com "peace is only better than war when it's not hell too. war being hell makes sense." -walker percy, the second coming 
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 please excuse the interruption. i am seeking pro-life activists to fill out a 13-page questionnaire on attitutes, opinions, and activities. if you would be willing to participate in this research, please email me privately at kste@purccvm.bitnet. all replies and questionnaires will be made anonymous prior to printout and will be kept confidential. thank you very much for your help. --kerry at purdue [note that i don't normally accept postings on abortion. so this isn't an invitation to a discussion in this group. --clh] 
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 be devoted to one another in brotherly love. honor one another above romans 12:10 
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 now, as to the suggestion that all prophecy tends to be somewhat cyclical, can you elaborate? i'm not exactly sure what you mean. how does the suggestion relate to isaiah's prophecy of the birth of christ by a virgin? i don't see any cycles in that prophecy. maybe cyclical is not the best word. that is one aspect of it. in the case of the virgin birth prophecy, it applied to the then and there, and also prophetically to christ. the army that threatened the king would cease to be a threat in a very short time. yet it also prophecied of several prophecies that refered to christ also had application at the time they were made. "out of egypt have i called my son" refers both to israel, and prophetically to christ. "why do the heathen rage" was said of david and also of christ. another example would be the scripture quoted of judas, "and his bishoprick let another take." another example is something that isaiah said of his disciples which is also applied to christ in hebrews, "the children thou hast given me." how does the preterist view account for this phenomenon. link hudson. 
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 what exactly is a definition of sin and what are some examples. how does a person know when they are committing sin? anything that does not bring me closer to god is a sin. (if you think this is too strict, just consider how ambiguous it is.) this implies that staying the same is a sin. a christian should never be satisfied. it does not imply that having fun is a sin. it does not imply that sleeping is a sin. it does imply that i sin every day. a perhaps simpler definition: anything that is counter to the two great commandments: love god, love your neighbor, is a sin. anything i do that is not from love is a sin. the same action can be a sin sometimes and not a sin sometimes. i could yell at my kids as discipline, all the time loving them, considering only to teach them proper behavior, or i could yell at my kids out of anger or selfishness. i could post an excellent article because i am interested in sharing my opinions and getting feedback and learning, or i could post an article because i want everyone to realize how wise i am. chris mussack 
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 : >people who reject god don't want to be wth him in heaven. we spend our : >lives choosing to be either for him or against him. god does not force : >himself on us. : i must say that i am shocked. my impression has been that jayne kulikaskas : usually writes this much less offensive and ludicrous than this. i am not : saying that the offensiveness is intentional, but it is clear and it is : something for christians to consider. jayne stands in pretty good company. c.s. lewis wrote a whole book promoting the idea contained in her first sentence quoted above. it is called "the final divorce". excellent book on the subject of heaven and hell, highly recommended. it's an allegory of souls who are invited, indeed beseeched to enter heaven, but reject the offer because being with god in heaven means giving up their false pride. joe kellett jkellett@netcom.com 
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 [william christie asked about the essene nt. andrew kille reponded there is a collection of gospels which usually goes under the name of the "essene gospel of peace." these are derived from the gnostics, not the essenes, and are ostensibly translations from syriac texts of the fourth and fifth centuries (i vaguely recall; i can't find my copy right now). --clh] there had been recent criticism of this in a listserv for academic biblical scholars: they all say the book(s) are modern fakes. d.h. 
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 i seldom see any posts in this group. is anyone out there in christendom listening? if so, why don't we get some dialog going here? here's a topic to get things started. my daughter's christian school sends home a weekly update on school related topics. this week they sent something *very* interesting. it was an article written by the leader of a national (us) christian school organization about a trip he recently made to jerusalem. while there, he was introduced to one of the rabbis who is working on a project to rebuild the temple at jerusalem. the article included photos of the many furnishings that have already been made in preparation for furnishing the rebuilt temple according to the specifications given in the bible. what was even more striking is the fact that the plans for the temple are complete and the group is only awaiting permission from the israeli government before beginning the building. the other startling fact is the very recent archeological discovery that the original site of the temple is unoccupied and available for building. previously it has been thought that the original site was underneath what is now a mosque, making rebuilding impossible without sparking a holy war. now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices, as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days. although the israeli government will give the permission to start, i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen. brothers and sisters, the time is at hand. our redemption is drawing near. look up! [postings are in the range of 30 to 50 per day, except weekends. if people aren't seeing that, we've got propagation problems. --clh] 
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 in the discussion as to why jesus spoke aloud the "lazarus, come out", i'm surprised that no one has noticed the verse immediately preceeding. jn 12:41 "father, i thank you for listening to me, though i knew that you always listen to me. but i have said this for the sake of the people that are standing around me that they may believe that you have made my your messenger." (goodspeed translation) my guess is that the "lazarus, come out!" was also for the sake of the --- tim rolfe rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu rolfe@junior.dsu.edu rolfet@columbia.dsu.edu 
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 [much of the excellent post deleted for space -- tjl] )->with all the suffering and persecution that it meant to be a believer, )->would be quite probable that at least one of those in the supposed )->would come forward and confess that the whole thing was a big hoax. )->not one did. it seems rather reasonable that the disciples did not )->up the resurrection but sincerely believed that jesus had actually )->from the dead; especially in light of the sufferings that came upon )->who believed. i was at the "jubilee" conference this year in pittsburgh pa, and the speaker there spoke of this as well. he talked about many of the same things you mentioned in your post, but here he went into a little more detail. i'll paraphrase as best i can: "suppose you were part of the `christian consipracy' which was going to tell people that christ had risen. never mind the stoning, the being burned alive, the possible crucifixion ... let's just talk about a scourging. the whip that would be used would have broken pottery, metal, bone, and anything else that they could find attached to it. you would be stood facing a wall, with nothing to protect you. "when the whip hit you the first time, it would tear the flesh off you with instant incredibly intense pain. you would think to yourself `all this for a lie?' the second hit would drop you to your knees, you would scream out in agony that your raw back was being torn at again. you would say to yourself: `all this for a lie?' and you had 37 more coming. "at the third hit you would scream out that it was all a lie, beg for them to stop, and tell them that you would swear on your life that it had all been a lie, if they would only stop...." it is amazing enough that those who believed kept their faith under such torture.... but for a lie? there is no one fool enough to do that.... and no one came forward. excellent post john, thanks for taking the time. tj luoma <luomat@alleg.edu> "god be merciful to "i have fought a good fight, me a sinner."--st luke i have finished my course, "for me to live is christ, and i have kept the faith." 2 tim to die is gain" -- philippians 1:21 
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 yes, i suppose it is true that people make mistakes. it is interesting to note that in those long ago ot days, if you weren't 100% correct in your prophecies, people got very mad and you were no longer believed, even put to death. this is one of the differences between ot prophecy and nt prophecy. in the nt, it is expected that when believers gather, - people will prophesy - the prophecy must be judged (1 cor 14:29) there is nothing about killing someone who makes a mistake. to say that we make mistakes is true. to say that we make mistakes while filled with the spirit is not true. were that true, the entire bible, having been written by men inspired by god would be subject also to those errors, for what is prophecy but like those revelations given in scripture? scripture is scripture; there is no "gift of scripture". and i don't know about you, but i know that _i_ have made mistakes while filled with the spirit. if you don't give grace to allow people to make mistakes, they will never grow in the use of the spiritual gifts! when we minister in my small group, i encourage people to speak out any impressions or images they think might be from the lord. only by trying will they know whether they were right or wrong -- and in either case, they'll have a better handle on it the next time. didn't you fall when you were learning to ride a bicycle? but you kept on trying, and you learned both from your failures and your successes. spiritual gifts are no different -- you get better with experience. which brings me around to asking an open question. is the bible a closed book of scripture? is it okay for us to go around saying "god told me this" and "jesus told me that"? wouldn't that imply that god is still pouring out new revelation to us? i know that some people will feel that is okay, and some will not. the concept of a closed canon would certainly cast a shadow on contemporary prophets. on the other hand, an open canon seems to be indicated sometimes. the canon of scripture is complete. does this mean that god no longer speaks? i have heard his voice -- not audibly (though some have), but clearly nonetheless. is what i heard equivalent to scripture? no. i have never heard contemporary prophets claim that what they receive from the lord is on the same level as scripture; on the contrary, those who are mature obey the scriptures by submitting their prophecies to fellow believers for judgement. and the most reliable yardstick for judging prophecies is, certainly, the scriptures themselves. the canon is closed -- but god is not silent! also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture. is it right to call that prophecy? misleading? wouldn't that be more having to do with knowledge? i know, the gift of knowledge may not be as exciting to talk about, but shouldn't we call a horse a horse? does it matter what it is called? the question is not how to label it, but how to receive it. words of knowledge, incidentally, are similar to prophecy (and sometimes the two overlap), but generally it is supernatural knowledge of some fact that could not be known otherwise. * jon reid * he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep * * reid@cs.uiuc.edu * to gain what he cannot lose. - jim elliot * 
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 {i sent in something on this before but i believe it got lost in the weekend accident the moderator described. this is an improved version anyway so no loss the first time. hl} the standard work on detecting forgeries of ancient documents is probably the writing of friedrich blass, "hermeneutrik und kritik," _einleitende und hilfsdisziplinen_, vol 1 of _handbuch der klassischen altertums- wissenshaft_ (noerdlingen: beck, 1886). portions of this are described in nibley, _the prophetic book op mormon_, pp 219-242 (slc: deseret book, 1989). (if you want to attempt reading this be forewarned. nibley describes blass as a typical german scholar who claims little knowledge of his subject, then proceeds to exhaust both the subject and the reader.) nibley's extract from blass's work is in the form of "rules for forgers." it makes interesting reading. i confess that i have not read blass's work, only nibley's extract thereof. my german falls far short of what would be required and as far as i know there is no english translation available. however, i believe the techniques he describes are known widely enough that any competent classical scholar could examine a purportedly ancient document and at least determine if it is consistent with what one would expect of a genuine document of that time frame. we will not be able to prove who wrote it but at least we should be able to determine with reasonable confidence if it is from that time and culture or is a later forgery. actually there are 2 types of purportedly ancient documents: 1. alleged actual holographs or early copies thereof. for example the dead sea scrolls. these can be tested by various scientific means to determine the age of the paper, inks, and objects found with them. this can provide a pretty clear dating of the actual physical objects. 2. documents claiming to be copies of ancient works although the copy itself may be much more recent. for example we might find a document which monks in a monastary claim is a copy of something from centuries ago (perhaps even having been through several generations of copists). this is more of a problem but can still be tested (although the test is not likely to be simple). we cannot expect a test of the age of the physical objects to tell us much so we must confine our testing to the text itself. it is important to remember that none of these tests can tell us if the document is really what it claims to be. they can only date the document and identify its culture of origin. for example i've heard of a letter supposed to have been written by jesus himself to a king in what is now iraq. if this document were to actually turn up scholars could date the paper and ink (assuming they have the holograph). they could check the language, content and writing style to see if they are consistent with what would be expected of a palestinian jew of that time. however even if all test results were positive there is no way to determine if jesus himself actually wrote it. we would know what time and culture it came from but (barring a known sample of jesus handwriting or other clues for comparison) scholarship must stop there. there is seldom any way to determine who the actual author was. as i say, i'm no expert on blas's work. i do remember some of the tests which can be applied to alleged copies of ancient works. specifically we might ask: 1. is the document internally consistent? does it contradict itself? if the work it is short it would be relatively easy to maintain internal consistency, even if it is a forgery. the longer the forgery the more difficult it is to maintain consistency. for this reason most successful forgers stick to short documents. 2. is it consistent with the history and geography of the time? again a short, non-specific work might not be testable but if the writing is of any significant length no latter-day forger would be able to escape detection. here we look for the minor, inconspicuous things which someone from that culture would get right without even thinking about it but which a later forger would find too numerous and trivial to check. the devil is in the details. 3. what about the literary style of the work, figures of speech etc. any ancient writer would almost certainly speak in ways that seem strange to us. are there any such odd phrases in this book? if so do they fit in with the culture? of course there are complications if the document has been translated, or possibly even if somebody just updated language when he copied it. a few cases of language not from the culture claimed may be allowed in recent copies. they cause problems and reduce certainty to be sure but don't necessarily prove forgery. these tests can be quite effective (given enough material to work with) but they are not easy. they require the skills of the historian, the linguist, the anthropologist etc. the questions to ask are, "is every aspect of this document consistent with what we know about the culture of claimed origin?" if there are things which don't fit how significant are they? are problem areas due to our lack of knowledge, later changes by copists or are they really significant? there will often be some ambiguity since we never know everything about the culture. the end result of any such testing is occasionally certain (particularly in the case of holographs or other ancient copies). however often it may just be a probability or an indication that the document (or maybe parts of it) is probably authentic (or sometimes maybe other parts are later additions). this is often unsettling to a generation raised on tv where all problems are solved in 30 to 60 minutes with time out for commercials. it is, however, the real world and what scholarship has to offer. 
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 is anyone familiar with doug sturm? if so, please post what you think. 
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 ...the computer is not a fantasyland where one's responsibilities disappear. the people on the net are real; slander and deception carried out by net are just as wrong as they would be if carried out on paper or face to face. well said, michael! the catholic traditon has a list of behaviours called the spiritual works of mercy: admonish the sinner instruct the ignorant counsel the doubtful comfort the sorrowful bear wrongs patiently forgive all injury pray for the living and the dead (yes, i know there is some controversy on this and i don't want to argue about it.) these are all things that have a direct application to usenet. people ask questions and express doubts. some are in need of comfort or prayers. imagine what would happen to flame wars if we bore wrongs patiently and forgave injuries. i would add that it is probably more appropriate to do any admonishing by private email than publicly. jayne kulikauskas/ jayne@mmalt.guild.org 
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 my advice is this: if you know someone that you have the hots for who is not a christian, befriend them and try to develop just a friendship with them. at the same time, witness and share the gospel with them, not so that you can date them, but so that they can be saved. once they become a christian, then it is quite possible to let the relationship progress beyond friendship. however, if they don't accept christ, you still have a good friendship and you haven't wasted a lot of emotional energy and gotten while i agree with most of jon says (i deleted those parts, of course), i have serious reservations about this advice. maintaining a `just friends' level of relationship is much easier said than done. people usually end up getting hurt. this is especially likely to happen when they start off with feelings of attraction. when people feel attracted those feelings can cloud their judgement. i've had the experience of going quickly from believing that i shouldn't date non-christians to believing that dating this man would be okay to believing that premarital sex is fine when people really love each other. when the relationship ended my beliefs immediately returned to their original state. this is an especially extreme case because i was young and away from home and fellowship. i don't think it would work exactly this way for most people. however, it's important not to underestimate the power of feelings of attraction. jayne kulikauskas/ jayne@mmalt.guild.org 
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 in quebec french, the word for the celebration of the resurrection is "pa^ques"--this is etymologically related to pesach (passover) and the pascal lamb. so is the french canadian (mostly roman catholic) celebration better because it uses the right name? i was at my parents' seder and noticed the labelling on one of the packages was english, hebrew and french. in the phrase "kosher for passover" the french word used was "pa^ques." we've deliberately mistranslated this at the kulikauskas home and keep referring to foods being kosher for easter. :-) back to the original questions in this thread concerning christians of jewish descent and the law: i always wonder when i see posts on this subject whether the writers are christians of jewish descent relating the life-decisions god has led them to or people who take only an academic interest in the topic. (having known seanna since she was nine years old, i do know in this case.) i admit that the answer to this question affects the amount of weight i give to the writer's statement. jayne kulikauskas/ jayne@mmalt.guild.org 
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 method expected actual ------ failure rate failure rate abstinence 0% 0% these figures don't seem to take account of rape. or is a woman who is raped considered not to have been abstaining? i no longer have the textbook, but abstinence was defined as something like "no contact between the penis and the vagina, vulva, or area immediately surrounding the vulva, and no transfer of semen to the vagina, vulva, or area surrounding the vulva". that is, abstinence wasn't discussed as "sex outside of marriage is morally wrong" but as keep the sperm away from the ovum and conception is impossible. the moral question i recall the teacher asking was, "is it okay to create a child if you aren't able to be a good parent yet?" #include <stdisclaimer> // jenk@microsoft.com // msdos testing 
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 i am a good catholic boy. a convert no less, attracted by the rational tradition [aquinas et al] and the emotional authenticity [in comp. with the faddishness of anglicanism] to roman catholicism. i never had much time for the pope - or any other heirarchs - but i did, and do, believe in the sacremental system. i always felt quite happy to look down my nose at those such as john emery [a few posts back] who had to engage in circuitous textual arguments to prove their faith, entirely oblivious to the fact that a dozen other faiths can do the same [with miracles too], and that since their arguments depend on the belief in the bible as god's sole revelation, it was not very good logic to argue that the bible proved god. no, i was happy to accept the church as god's revelation. it was the church after all that existed before the bible, the church that choose [under grace of course] the canon of scripture. protestant ludicrosity, i thought, was shown by protestants breathtaking acceptance of luther's right to reject a dozen or so books he disliked. but recently i read peter brown's _body and society_. it is very well researched, and well written. but is raises some very upsetting questions. the early christians were weird - even more so than today's carzy fundies. they had odd views on sex, odder views on the body, totally ludicrous views about demons, and distinctly uncharitable views about other human beings. now the question is this: were the first christians just as weird, but we've got used to them, or did the pristine "fall of the church" happen within one generation. it certainly did'nt have to wait until the triumph of the church under constantine. if so, wha does this say about god's promise to always support the church. it's no use throwing the usual protestant pieties about the church not being an organization at me. it's a community or it is nothing, and it was the early communities that were weird. the institional church was a model of sanity by comparison. i would be interested in serious catholic and orthodox responses to this entirely serious issue. i'm not sure it is an issue for protestants with their "soul alone with jesus" approach, but for we who see the "ecclesia" as a "koinoia" over time and space, the weird early christians are a problem. [this is an exaggeration of the protestant view. many protestants have a strong appreciation for the role of the church. "the soul alone with god" is certainly important for protestants, but it's by no means the whole story. i have read the sort of history you talk about. as you point out, protestants don't have quite the same problem you do, because we believe that the church had a fall at some point. however protestant mythology typically places the fall around the time of constantine (or more likely, regard it as happening in a sort of cumulative fashion, starting from constantine but getting worse as the pope accumulated power during the medieval period.) the consequences of having it earlier are somewhat worrisome even to us. most protestants accept the theological results of the early ecumenical councils, including such items as the trinity and incarnation. indeed in the works of reformers such as luther and calvin, you'll find church fathers such as augustine quoted all the time. i think you'll find many protestants resistant to the idea that the early church as a whole was "wierd". (there is an additional problem for protestants that i don't much want to talk about in this context, since it's been looked at recently -- that's the question of whether one can really think of augustine and other fathers as being proto-protestants. their views on mary, the authority of the pope, etc, are not entirely congenial to protestant thought.) one thing that somewhat worries me is a question of methodology. there are certainly plenty of wierd people in the early church. what concerns me is that they may be overrepresented in what we see. we see every christian who courted martyrdom. but i think there's good reason to believe that most ordinary christians were more prudent than that. we see the heroic virgins. but i think there's good reason to think that many christians were happily married. i can't help suspecting that the early church had the same range of wierdos and sane people that we do now. i think there's also a certain level of "revisionism" active in history at the moment. i don't mean that they're manufacturing things out of whole cloth. but don't you think there might be a tendency to emphasize the novel? --clh] 
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 quoth the moderator: i have to say that i some qualms about giving you this explanation, because it raises additional problems: if god is the source of all existence, then a complete separation from him would make existence itself impossible. so, does god maintain just enough connection with those who are rejected to keep them in existence so he can punish in a short poem ("god in his mercy made / the fixed pains of hell"), c. s. lewis expresses an idea that i'm sure was current among others, but i haven't be able to find its source: that even hell is an expression of mercy, because god limits the amount of separation from him, and hence the amount of agony, that one can :- michael a. covington internet mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542-0358 : ********* :- the university of georgia fax 706 542-0349 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 the two historic facts that i think the most important are these: (1) if jesus didn't rise from the dead, then he must have done something else equally impressive, in order to create the observed amount of impact. (2) nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus, even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so (it would have discredited the christians). :- michael a. covington internet mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542-0358 : ********* :- the university of georgia fax 706 542-0349 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 in quebec french, the word for the celebration of the resurrection is "pa^ques"--this is etymologically related to pesach (passover) and the pascal lamb. so is the french canadian (mostly roman catholic) celebration better because it uses the right name? i was at my parents' seder and noticed the labelling on one of the packages was english, hebrew and french. in the phrase "kosher for passover" the french word used was "pa^ques." we've deliberately mistranslated this at the kulikauskas home and keep referring to foods being kosher for easter. :-) however, the word "pa^ques" in french _is_ the word for easter. ask any francophone, whether from quebec or from paris. besides, haven't you heard of the phrase "the paschal lamb" (meaning jesus)? sorry to nitpick on the more trivial part of this thread.... :) vera i am your clock! | i bind unto myself today | vera noyes i am your religion! | the strong name of the | noye@midway.uchicago.edu i own you! | trinity.... | no disclaimer -- what - lard | - st. patrick's breastplate | is there to disclaim? 
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 many christians believe in abstinence, but in a moment will be overcome by desire. we all compromise and rationalize poor choices (sin). last week i was guilty of anger, jealousy, and whole mess of other stuff, yet i am forgiven and not condemned to suffer with aids. to even suggest that aids is "deserved" is ludicrous. when man was told not to have sex with relatives, did they listen ? no! and man found out why ! so what's your point? mark's comment still is valid. to suggest that aids is "deserved" is ludicrous. i sin. i can resolve to abstain from sin, and do weekly (more often, actually). yet i routinely fail. i surely do deserve what i get, yet god compassionately provided the incarnate logos, jesus, as a rememdy and a way out of our situation. if aids is deserved, i surely deserve instant death just as much, as do we all, as st. paul so cogently remids us. to willingly judge "others" as deserving punishment seems to me to be the height of arrogance and lack of humility. i wonder if aids would be a problem now if people didn't get involved in deviant sexual behaviour. certainly, people who received tainted blood are not to blame. but it just goes to show that all mankind is affected by the actions of a few. so what's the point here? i can get aids and never engage in "deviant" sexual behavior. in fact, i could engage in lots of deviant sexual behavior with hiv+ people and never be infected. aids is a consequence of particular behaviors, many of which are not sexual. and not all sexual behaviors carry the risk of transmission. in addition, imho forgiveness is not the end of things. there is still the matter of atonement. is it aids ? i don't know. the end of all things is to know, love and serve god, growing daily closer through prayer, meditation and discipline. even so i could get aids. anyone could, unless they remain forever celibate, iv-drug-free, and transfusion free. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com 
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 there had been recent criticism of this in a listserv for academic biblical scholars: they all say the book(s) are modern fakes. d.h. which listsev was this and is the discussion still current? my questioning is based on some information presented from the essene nt that challenges some of my eating choices. as the info came from a biased (opposed to my preferences) third party i am looking for info as to whether i should dismiss this work or put some consideration into it. thanks again for info! will christie | aatchoo! | philosophy: the principles and university of manitoba | uh-oh... | science of thought and reality winnipeg, mb, canada | i'm leaking | philosopher: someone who thinks chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca | brain lubricant. | they're useful to society 
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 eventually, we got around to how we should pray in jesus' name. then, an excellent question came up, one that i don't have a real answer to. the question was, "if we need to pray in jesus' name, what about the people before jesus? they prayed to god and he listened then, in spite of their sins. why can't it be the same way now?" "and in that day you will ask me no question. truly, truly, i say to you, if you shall ask the father for anything, he will give it to you in my name. until now you have asked for nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full." -john 16:23-24 i don't believe that we necessarily have to say " . . . in christ's name. amen," for our prayers to be heard, but it glorifies the son, when we acknowledge that our prayer is made possible by him. i believe that just as those who were saved in the ot, could only be saved because jesus would one day reconcile god to man, he is the only reason their prayers would be heard by for all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. -isaiah 64:6, nas our prayers like the rest of our deeds are too unholy to go directly to the father because they are tainted by our sin. only by washing these prayers with christ's blood are they worthy to be lifted to to the father. "first, i thank my god through christ jesus . . ." -romans 1:8, nas some scholars believe that this is paul recognizing that even his thanks are too unholy for the father. basically, prayer is a gift of grace, i believe that only through jesus do our prayers have any power; thus, praying in his name glorifies and praises jesus for this beautiful and powerful gift he has given us. carter c. page | of happiness the crown and chiefest part is wisdom, a carpenter's apprentice | and to hold god in awe. this is the law that, cpage@seas.upenn.edu | seeing the stricken heart of pride brought down, | we learn when we are old. -adapted from sophocles 
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 he doesn't contradict himself. the church is to last for all time. however, there are those who use the church to bolster themselves. this is evident in many letters. for instance, paul talks about the "super-apostles" to the corinthians (2 corinthians 11-12), he mentions how people will be led away by miracles, signs, and wonders (2 thessalonians 2:9-12), he tells timothy that it is clear that some will abandon the faith and teach lies (1 timothy 4:1-3) and that some will search for teachers to suit what they want to hear (2 timothy 4:3-4). such passages go throughout the letters and jesus does warn about them (matthew 24:4-14). but look at the promise in this last part. verse 14: "and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." even today, there are false teachings. i can name two which i am well familiar with: the non-need of baptism and the "praying of jesus into your life for salvation". both are taught. both are dead wrong. they have been taken out of context from some verses, interpreted from others, and just plain made up. the only way jesus taught is given in luke 9:23-26 and luke 14:25-33. he then commands baptism in matthew 28:18-20. the church jesus founded, though, is alive and well. it's not being persecuted as much as back then (the laws won't allow it yet), but it is being persecuted. joe fisher + lou nunez (e-mail lnunez@vaxa.stevens-tech.edu) + + + ps 42(43):4 + ps 90(91):5-6 + dn 3:52-90 + ml 1:11 + + + + ad altare dei + ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam + + + + 1cor 4:15 + mt 16:13-19 + 1cor 13:1-13 + luke 10:25-37 + + 
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 sorry for taking this off of sharon's resp, but i'd also like to add some more verses to that and perhaps answer the second q. verses: 1 corinthians 6:9-10 colossians 3:5-10 as for knowing when, that's a bit tricky. people normally have consciences which warn them about it. however, as in my case, a conscience can be hardened by sin's deceitfulness (hebrews 3:12:13) so that the person has no idea (or doesn't care about it) that they are sinning. of course, there are those sins which we do when we don't know that they're sinful to begin with. those take searching and examining of scripture to find out that they are sinful and then repent and change. the best question to ask in every circumstance to judge sinful possibilities is: "would jesus wholeheartedly do this at this point in time?" i know, it sounds like a cop-out, but it truly is a stifling joe fisher oh, i missed one. 1 john 1:8-2:11,15-23. 
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 were the early christians weird? yes! so were their non-christian contemporaries (the more familiar you are with late republican rome or the pricipate, the weirder those people will seem -- forget the creative filtering done by renaissance and eighteenth century hero worship.) so are modern non-christians. and christians. you are pretty weird, yourself, with your rather acid dismissal of luther and of protestantism -- and in apparently buying into a simplistic propaganda model about catholicism *not* being faddish. sure, it's so large that global fads take longer cycles than they do in smaller denominations (and local ones are not usually visible unless you do a lot of traveling to exotic lands :-)). may i recom- mend, as a salutary antidote to this nonsense philippe aries' book _the hour of our death_, a longitudinal study of death customs in western [specifically catholic] christendom? and it won't help to escape into the obscurity of the first christian century. paul was pretty weird, too; as were peter and the others in the (apparently quite weird) circle around jesus. what i think you might find helpful is a bit more charity -- try to understand these weirdos and nutcases with the same respect and love you would expect others to show your notions. we *are* commanded to love one another, after all. and brown's book is, in fact, a heroic attempt to see the groupings he talks about as motivated in love and the gospel and their social contexts. (if anything, brown is *too* heroic here -- he manages to overstrain himself at times :-)) i don't suggest that we *follow* any of these old cult paths -- and it raises hard questions from the skeptic inside me that so much of early christianity *was* like the weird (christian and non-christian) cults we see today. to that extent, i think you raise a serious problem (and perhaps your phrasing is implicitly self-deprecatory and ironic.) but the first principle for *answering* these questions is respect and love for those we do not understand. and it helps to *work* at under- standing (as long as we do not get overwhelmed by revulsion and begin to withdraw our respect for them as people.) i would advise, in other words, more historical reading (brown's other books are also good, most especially his bio. of augustine; also try robin lane fox's _christians and pagans_, maybe the paul veyne ed. _history of private life_, some of foucault's books on sexuality in the ancient world ...) humanity *is* weird -- we have known one sane person, and we killed him. fortunately for us, this has proved a comedy rather than a tragedy. easter, 1993. (yes; this is a tad early -- our vigil service here has been moved forward because so many churches in the area have taken to doing their own vigils, and the seminarians must therefore worship-and-run if they are to do it here and there as well. think of this as an anglican fad. :-)) michael l. siemon we must know the truth, and we must mls@ulysses.att.com love the truth we know, and we must - or - act according to the measure of our love. mls@panix.com -- thomas merton 
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 04 apr 93, david cruz-uribe writes to all: dc> also, what is orthodox practice regarding communion? i read dc> a throw-away remark someplace that the orthodox receive less dc> frequently than catholics do, but was is their current practice? dc> have their been any variations historically? i think orthodox practice varies from place to place, from parish to parish and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. in some parishes here in south africa the only ones who receive communion are infants (i.e. children under 7). in our parish it is expected that one will have been to vespers and confessional prayers the evening before, and that one will have been fasting. as we have to travel 70km to the church, we don' t receive communion every sunday, but about every third sunday. --- golded 2.40 
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 09 apr 93, jill anne daley writes to all: jad> what exactly is a definition of sin and what are some examples. how does jad> a person know when they are committing sin? to answer briefly: sin is falling short of the glory of god (romans 3:23) --- golded 2.40 
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 if i talk with an atheist and tell him the new testament is an historically reliable document, what reasons would i give him? i have found that this isn't a very effective argument. most atheists are perfectly willing to acknowledge the existence and ministry of jesus--but are quite capable of rationalizing the miracles and the resurrection into misunderstandings, hoaxes, or simple fabrications. they can always make an analogy with the _iliad_, a book that tells the story of the historical trojan war, but also talks about gods and goddesses and their conversations. i don't think it's possible to convince atheists of the validity of christianity through argument. we have to help foster faith and an understanding of god. i could be wrong--are there any former atheists here who were led to christianity by argument? alan terlep "incestuous vituperousness" oakland university, rochester, mi atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu --melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread. 
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 the empty tomb: can we trust it? by the late wilbur m. smith, d.d. (1894-1977) when jesus was on earth, he made an amazing prediction about himself, and frequently repeated it. let me quote it for you: behold, we go up to jerusalem; and the son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him; and the third day he shall rise again" (matthew 20:18-19). wholly different from the normal experience of men, jesus, who had *never* done anything worthy of death, even deserving reproval, knew he would die before he was 40 years of age. he knew the very city where he would die. he knew that the religious leaders of his own race would condemn him to death. he knew that one of his own would betray him. he knew that before his actual death took place he would be mocked and scourged. he knew exactly how he would die--*by crucifixion.* all this is in itself remarkable. but more amazing than the minute particulars of his foreknowledge was what he predicted would follow shortly after he was buried--*that he would rise again.* he even designated the time--on the third day. but since it is on this central fact--the death and resurrec- tion of jesus christ--that the whole truth or untruth of chris- tianity turns, let us examine it more closely. the body of jesus was embalmed in long sheets of cloth between the layers of which a great abundance of spices and ointments was distributed. the body was placed in a tomb which had never before been used, and a great stone was rolled against the entrance. the jewish authorities, fully aware that jesus had predicted he would rise again, had the stone officially sealed and on saturday placed a guard before the tomb to prevent the disciples from carrying away the body. early sunday morning some of the women who were faithful followers of christ went out to the tomb to further anoint the body. to their utter astonishment, they found the stone rolled away, the body gone. they rushed back to tell the disciples. shortly two of jesus' friends, peter and john, utterly skeptical about the whole affair, came and found the tomb empty, just as the women had said. even the guards came hurrying into the city to tell the sanhedrin that had hired them to guard the tomb that the body was gone (matthew 28:11). how did this tomb become empty? one of the most famous new testament scholars in america-- professor of new testament literature in a large theological seminary--wrote to the author in answer to my question of *how* the tomb became empty, and wrote it in a letter *not* marked by bitterness or sarcasm, that he could no more explain how the tomb became empty than he could explain how santa claus comes down the chimney at christmas time. but he didn't realize that santa clause never did come down any chimney at christmas time, *because there never was a santa claus!* ...and there *is* a jesus. he died; he was buried in the tomb of joseph of arimathea, and on sunday the body was gone. those are facts of history. no one can escape the responsi- bility of coming to some conclusion about what really happened by mentioning a myth we all abandoned before we were eight years old. another professor, dr. kirsopp lake of harvard university, tried to explain the empty tomb by saying (what no other scholar in the field of new testament criticism has ventured to adopt) that the women went to the wrong tomb. the facts are these: first, so far as we know, there was no other tomb nearby to which by mistake they could have gone. second, it is contrary to all similar experience for three or more people to forget the place where they have buried their dearest loved one within less than three days. even if the women did miss the tomb, when peter and john came, did they too go to the wrong tomb? third, were the soldiers *guarding* the wrong tomb? there is, of course, a record of an attempt to escape the evidence of the empty tomb in the new testament itself. now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city and showed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. and when they were assembled with the leaders and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, saying, say ye, his disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. and if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. so they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is com- monly reported among the jews until this day (matthew 28:11-15). this is a good illustration of many later attempts to escape the fact that the tomb was empty. you will notice at once that the chief priests and the elders never questioned but that the tomb *was* empty. they never even went out to see if what the guards had reported was true--they *knew* it was true. another fact about this story makes it ridiculous to maintain that the tomb was empty--the soldiers were told to say that jesus' disciples came and stole the body away *while they* (the soldiers) *were asleep!* how could they know what was going on while they were asleep? obviously, such testimony would be valueless in any court. even aside from the shallowness and sordidness that make us reject the explanation, the very character and the later history of the disciples compel us to believe they did not steal and secretly carry away the body of jesus. first, as professor heffern points out, the leaders of judaism in jerusalem, who had put the lord jesus to death, had nothing to offer to contradict these disciples as they continued to preach jesus and his resurrection--because all jerusalem knew the tomb was empty. if there had been trickery here, sooner or later it would have been suspected, then proved. second, surely *one* of the disciples, even *most* of them, would have confessed the fraud under the terrific persecution they underwent. it may be possible to live a lie, but men seldom die for a lie--and most of these men did. the result ultimately would have been that the message that christ had risen would have suffered the fate of all such unfounded stories--it would have lost it *power.* instead, this truth swept the world, closed pagan temples, won millions of disciples, brought hope to a despairing humanity, was the very foundation truth of the early church, and is today as believable and as freshly glorious as ever. but not only did jesus come alive again, he did not disappear to leave the disciples speculating through all the subsequent days as to what had happened to him. instead, he appeared to them--literally, visibly, frequently. he appeared to the women at the tomb on resurrection morning (matthew 28:1-10); later that day to mary magdalene alone (john 20:11- 18); and to simon peter, also alone (luke 24:34). in the afternoon he walked with two of his followers toward emmaus (luke 24:13-35); and that night he appeared to ten of the apostles gathered together in an upper room at jerusalem (mark 16:14-16; luke 24:36-40; etc.). a week later he appeared to all eleven of the apostles, probably at the same place (john 20:26-28). once he was seen by above 500 brethren on a mountain in galilee (i corinthians 15:6); and finally to the apostles just before his ascension (mark 16:19; luke 24:50-52; acts 1:3- 8). as with the fact of the empty tomb, so in regard to these histor- ically recorded appearances, all kinds of theories have been proposed attempting to deny their literalness. but these theories are unreasonable, without supporting evidence. none has ever won the unanimous approval of those who refuse to believe in the reality of the moreover, while it is true we are living in an age when may of our leading scientists and agnostics and many of our philosophers are antisuperanaturalistic, let us not forget that some of the greatest thinkers of the ages have firmly believed in this great miracle. increase mather, president of harvard; timothy dwight, president of yale; nathan lord, president of dartmouth; edward hitchcock, president of amherst; mark hopkins, president of williams; john witherspoon, president of princeton--these men and countless others have believed it. but suppose christ *did* rise from the dead, what of it? what has it to do with *my* life? what has it to do with *your* life? just this: it seals with certitude the teachings of christ. jesus taught many great truths--especially many about himself. he claimed to have come down *from* god. he said he was the way *to* god. he said he was the son of god, who alone knew god perfectly. he said that whoever believed on him had eternal life, and no one else had it. he said that whatever we ask god in his name, he would grant it to thus when he did rise from the grave on the third day, he revealed that in these amazing, unparalleled predictions, *he spoke the truth!* do you know any reason, *any good reason,* why we should not believe that his words are all true? the point is, does not the truth of the resurrection convince us that he is none other than the one he claimed to be--the son of god? and then, of course, the fact that christ rose from the dead testifies that he has broken the power of death, and that he will some day raise us also up from the grave, as he promised. in other words, if this person, jesus christ, the son of god, in all this, he should be the cornerstone of the foundation of your life. for he said a life built on him would know forgiveness of sins, his compan- ionship and help, a joy that no circumstances can ever take away, and a hope that shineth more and more unto a perfect day. those who have tried it down through the ages--*and there have been many*--have given their testimony. and we today who believe also know. 
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 we can jillustrate this by pointing to the way god administers his judgment. in the ot, sins were not forgiven, but rather covered up. in the age of the church not only are sins forgiven (taken away), but the power of sin is put to death. ... my, this distinction seems quite arbitrary. blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sin is covered. (ps. 32:1). and quoted by the apostle paul: even as david also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom god imputeth righteousness without works, saying, blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin. (rom. 4:6-8) the biblical perspective seems to be that foregiveness and covering are parallel/equivalent concepts in both testaments. the dispensational distinction is unwarranted. during the millenium, we read that sins are dealt with immediately under the present (ie that christ is present on earth) rulership of christ. i'm sure rex has scripture to back this up. you're suggesting jesus is going to travel around dealing with individual violations of his law -- for millions perhaps billions of people. such activity for moses the lawgiver was considered unwise (cf. ex. 18:13ff). it makes for interesting speculation, though. i'll leave comments on the so-called "bema seat" vs. "throne" judgments to someone else. this also seems like more unnecessary divisions ala tom albrecht 
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 adam, i just finished a study on this, not only looking at the prophecies themselves, but where they were fulfilled. while going only through the ot, i found 508 references. after starting to show their fulfillment, i found out that i had missed some, so needless to say i cannot post them here. however, the study i did i intend to publish (i am in the process of organizing and showing the fulfillments, then i will be ready to write and send it to a publisher). with any luck (and/or free time) i should have it finally done sometime around september (i hope). joe fisher 
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 especially as we approach a time when scientists are trying to match god's ability to create life, we should use the utmost caution. i question the implications of this statement; namely, that there are certain physical acts which are limited to god and that attempting to replicate these acts is blasphemy against god. god caused a bush to burn without being consumed--if i do the same thing, am i usurping god's role? religious people are threatened by science because it has been systematically removing the physical "proofs" of god's existence. as time goes on we have to rely more and more on faith and the spiritual world to relate to god becuase science is removing our props. i don't think this is a bad thing. alan terlep "incestuous vituperousness" oakland university, rochester, mi atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu --melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread. 
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 ...does anybody out there see the current emphasis on the environment being turned (unintentionally, of course) into i've debated this quite a bit, and while i think a legitimate concern for the planet is a great thing, i can easily see it being perverted into something dangerous. many pagans are involved in environmentalism--this is only natural, since respect for the earth is a fundamental tenet of all pagan denominations. this doesn't mean that environmentalism is wrong, any more than supporting peace in the middle east is wrong because jews and muslims also work for it. nonetheless, paganism is certainly on the rise, and we as christians should address this and look at what draws people from paganism to christianity. like it or not, pagan religions are addressing needs that christianity should be, and isn't. i believe that paganism has hit upon some major truths that christianity has forgotten. this doesn't mean that paganism is right, but it does mean that we have something to learn from the pagan movement. first, paganism respects the feminine. christianity has a long history of oppressing women, and many (if not most) male christians are still unable to live in a non-sexist manner. the idea that god is sexless, or that christ could have been a women and still accomplished his mission, is met with a great deal of resistance. this insistance on a male-dominated theology (and the male-dominated society that goes with it) drives away many young women who have had to put up with sexist attitudes in their churches. second, paganism respects the physical world. this is an idea with great ramifications. one of these is environmentalism--respect for our surroundings and our world. another is integration of sexuality. christianity has a long tradition of calling all sexual feeelings sinful and urging people to suppress and deny their sexuality. this is too much--sex is clearly a part of human experience and attempting to remove it is simply not a feasible option. christianity has only begun to develop a workable sexual ethic, and paganism is an attractive option. i'm not advocating that christian doctrines (no sex before marriage, etc.) should be changed--just that christians work toward a more moderate ethic of sexuality. denial of sexuality places as much emphasis on sex as unmoderated sexuality, and neither one does much to bring us closer to god. alan terlep "incestuous vituperousness" oakland university, rochester, mi atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu --melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread. 
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 i would like to see christians devote a bit less effort to _bashing_ paganism and more to figuring out how to present the gospel to pagans. christ is the answer; the pagans have a lot of the right questions. unlike materialists, who deny the need for any spirituality. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 --> note: reply to a message in soc.religion.christian. evenson thomas randall wrote in a message to all: which brings me around to asking an open question. is the bible a closed book of scripture? is it okay for us to go around saying "god told me this" and "jesus told me that"? also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture. is it right to call that prophecy? misleading? hi, you might want to read charismatic chaos by john macarthur. in it he discussed exactly this queation, amongst others. in my own words, very simplified, his position is basically that one must decide, what is the most important - experience or scripture? people tend to say scripture, without living according to that. their own feeling/prophecy/etc tends to be put across without testing in the light of scripture. there's a lot more than this, really worthwhile to read whether you're charismatic or not. groetnis (=cheers) --- timed/b8 internet: deon.strydom@f7.n7104.z5.fidonet.org via: the catalyst bbs in port elizabeth, south africa. (catpe.alt.za) +27-41-34-1122 hst or +27-41-34-2859, v32bis & hst. 
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 being a parent in need of some help, i ask that you bear with me while i describe the situation which plagues me... i am a divorced father. chance would have it that "my weekend" with my daughter has fallen upon easter weekend this year. although i am presbyterian, i had married a catholic woman. we decided that the catholic moray of indoctrination of the spouse into the faith was too confining (and restrictive due to time as we had already set a date), and we were married in a christian church which was non-denominational. during the years of our marriage, we did not often attend church. when our daughter was born, some years later, my wife insisted that she be baptised as catholic. this wasn't a problem with me. during a separation of five years, my ex-wife was taken ill with a disease that affected her mental capacities. she was confined to a mental ward for two months before it was diagnosed. it has since been treated "effectively". in other words, professionals have deemed her a functioning member of society. during the recuperation, my ex-wife has embraced buddism. her influence over my daughter has been substantial, and has primarily allowed me only saturday visitation for a number of years. during this period i have read bible study books to my daughter, and tried to keep her aware of her christian heritage. last fall, our divorce was finalized after a year of viscious divorce hearings. at that time i was awarded visitation rights every other weekend. at that time, i started taking my daughter to church quite often, although not every weekend. i did this to attempt to strengthen the christian ethic and expose her to a religious community. today, easter sunday, i took my daughter to church. when it came time for communion, my daughter took the bread (the body of christ) but left the wine (the blood of christ) professing that she was too young for wine. she then balled the bread up in her hand and tried to descretely throw it under the pew in front of us. i feel this was a slap in the face to me, my religion, and an afront to her religious heritage. it can be construed as breaking several of the commandments if you try. i really felt dishonored by the action. my daughter is only nine years old, but i think she should have been old and mature enough to realize her actions. i have difficulty blaming her directly for religious teachings her mother swears to, but when i discussed this with my daughter she made it clear she believed in buddhism and not christianity. my initial response of anger (moderated) was to suggest if there is no faith in christ then why does she celebrate easter, or christmas? i suggested i would never force her to practice my religious beliefs by celebrating holidays with her again. i do not want to "drive her from the fold", and would be willing to allow her to continue practicing buddhism (as though i had a choice seeing her only for two days out of fourteen) but i want her to want to embrace christianity. any suggestions? if you have a response, please e-mail me a copy. (i'm not a regular reader of this newsgroup.) (naturally, feel free to post too!) thanks, and i hope you've had a happy easter. drew watson systems analysis encore computer corp dwatson@encore.com (301)497-1800 || (703)691-3500 customer services 
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 now, as to the suggestion that all prophecy tends to be somewhat cyclical, can you elaborate? i'm not exactly sure what you mean. how does the suggestion relate to isaiah's prophecy of the birth of christ by a virgin? i don't see any cycles in that prophecy. maybe cyclical is not the best word. ... another example would be the scripture quoted of judas, "and his bishoprick let another take." another example is something that isaiah said of his disciples which is also applied to christ in hebrews, "the children thou hast given me." how does the preterist view account for this phenomenon. ah, double-fulfillment. first of all i would say that i'm not sure all the prophecies had double-fulfillment, e.g., the isaiah 7:14 prophecy. i would say that just because this happens on some occasions does not mean it will occur always, especially with regard to nt prophecies. the apostles who quoted the ot and applied those passages to jesus were acting as divine messengers and giving the inerrant word of god to the church. no one has that authority today. no one has the apostolic authority to say that such-and-such a prophecy has double-fulfillment. if the imagry of revelation fits with events of the 1st century, it is folly for us to try and make it apply to events 20 centuries later. tom albrecht 
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 i realize i'm entering this discussion rather late, but i do have one question. wasn't it a reagan appointee, james watt, a pentacostal christian (i think) who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were "living in the last days" and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods terrance heath heath@athena.cs.uga.edu your comfort is my silence!!!!! act-up! fight back! talk back! 
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 here's how i talk to non-christians who are complaining about hell. me: "do you believe you're going to heaven?" him: "i don't believe in heaven." me: "so are you going there?" him: "if there was a heaven, i would." me: "but since there isn't a heaven, you're not going there, are you?" him: "no." the point is that heaven is based on faith--if you don't believe in heaven, there's no way you're going to be in it. hmmm... people in the americas before the time of christ, children who die young, etc. ? of course, the next step is, "i don't believe in hell either, so why will i be there?" it seems to me that hell is eternal death and seperation from god. but of course, the popular conception of hell (correct or incorrect) is something akin to eternal perpetuation of consciousness, at the very least. most atheists do believe that when they die they will die forever, and never see god--so they do, in fact, believe that they're going to hell. i think a good number of atheists believe there is nothing beyond bodily death, but it is simply an abuse of language to say they believe they're going to hell. they believe they're going to _die_. understand that you've turned hell into a verb. using the same logic, it also follows that all animals are 'going to hell.' are you sure this is what you want to say? (presumably animals don't have the opportunity to get to heaven, but this still doesn't change the fact that they're going to hell (die a final death)) i don't claim to know whether or not there is an afterlife of _some_ sort, but if hell is as you described (final death, and not eternal perpetuation of consciousness) it will be true that there will never be a moment when i am aware of my non-existence. (assuming i 'go to hell' and not to heaven) in other words, i'll never know i'm dead. hmmm... hell doesn't have to be worse than earth to be hell--because it's eternal, ever hear people say of a loved one who was ill, and has died: "at least she's not suffering any more; she's in heaven now." ? consider the following statement: "at least she's not suffering any more; she's in hell now." the above statement sounds odd, but according to your definition of hell, it would be a true statement. the person in hell would not be suffering. granted, they wouldn't be *anything* (wouldn't be having any conscious experience whatsoever). you say hell (death) is eternal. however, this loses its meaning to a dead person. and to me, it seems that the threat of some sort of eternal punishment only makes sense/has force if one expects to be conscious throughout this eternity. many atheists believe that the thirst for an afterlife is simply the product of propaganda ("friend, do you want the free gift of e-ternal life?" it's my understanding that the early jews did not believe in an afterlife. can anyone back me up on this?) combined with the survival instinct all animals share. the difference is we have consciousness, and once we get the idea of eternal life drilled into our brains, we then desire a sort of super-survival. and it's a lot worse than heaven. that's the only comparison that matters. that would depend on what heaven is like. if god is a king, and an eternity in heaven consists of giving thanks and praise to the king, i might opt for hell. i read a lovely account of a missionary trying to convert eskimos to christianity in the book _the illusion of immortality_ by corliss lamont. the missionary started to speak about heaven. "are there seals in heaven? will we be able to go hunting?" asked an eskimo. the missionary said no. the group of eskimos then said something to the effect of, "well what good is your heaven if there's no hunting? scram." i highly recommend the above book (ioi) to anyone who wants an account of the other side of the immortality coin (that there is no immortality). alan terlep "incestuous vituperousness" oakland university, rochester, mi atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu --melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread. 
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 the parable of the prodigal son is not about who is and who isn't an immoral person. it is about grace and the love of god. most people would agree with that concerning the younger son. the elder son is simply a negative example of the some thing. he thinks that he must earn his father's love, that he has earned it, that he is entitled to it. his father tells him that he is on the wrong track. he has always been loved--for the same reason his brother has always been: he is his father's son. we are too performance oriented to consistently get the point. we are willing to be saved by grace, but once we are christians we want to go back to earning and deserving. "are you so foolish? after beginning with the spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" gal 3:3 niv stan armstrong. religious studies dept, saint mary's university, halifax, n.s. armstrong@husky1.stmarys.ca | att!clyde!watmath!water!dalcs!armstrng 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20570">
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 the one single historic event that has had the biggest impact on the world over the centuries is the resurrection of jesus. at the same time, it is one of the most hotly contested topics.... did jesus christ really rise from the dead? since the eyewitnesses are no longer living, we have only their written accounts. ... ... because of the magnitude of significance involved here, either the resurrection is the greatest event in the history of man or the greatest deception played on man. [massive amounts of data deleted] while i will not take the time to rebut you point by point, i will suggest three current works which i think will be helpful in your quest to answer this question. john dominic crossan (professor of religion at de paul univ)- _the cross that spoke_ harper and row pub. 1988, also his latest work _the historical jesus - the life of a mediterranean jewish peasant_ harper and row pub. 1991, also two works of burton mack (professor of new testament at the claremont graduate school) _a myth of innocence_ fortress press 1988, and his latest book _the lost gospel: the book of q and christian origins_ harper and row, 1992. you might start with mack's book on q and then examine the others afterward. however i think that once you do that you will see that your "evidence" is not as sturdy as you'd like. most of the tired arguements you stated, assume eyewitness accounts, such is not the case. but anyway look at mack and crossan and then get back to us. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20571">
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 "suppose you were part of the `christian consipracy' which was going to tell people that christ had risen. never mind the stoning, the being burned alive, the possible crucifixion ... let's just talk about a scourging. the whip that would be used would have broken pottery, metal, bone, and anything else that they could find attached to it. you would be stood facing a wall, with nothing to protect you. ... scream out in agony that your raw back was being torn at again. you would say to yourself: `all this for a lie?' and you had 37 more coming. "at the third hit you would scream out that it was all a lie, beg for them to stop, and tell them that you would swear on your life that it had all been a lie, if they would only stop...." no one was ever flogged, beaten, burned, fed to the lions, or killed in any other way because of a belief in the resurrection - sorry to disappoint you. the idea of resurrection is one which can be found in a host of different forms in the religions of antiquity. the problem was not the resurrection which was a mediorce issue for a tiny fragment of the jewish population (the saducees) but was a non issues for everyone else. the real problem was that christians were pacifist and preached there was only one god. when the state operates by a system of divinitation of the emperor - monotheism becomes a capital offense. the jews were able to get exemption from this, and were also not evangelistic. christians were far more vocal, and gentile, and hence dangerous and were therefore targets of persecution. also since christians were a relatively powerless group, they made good scapegoats as is seen by nero's blaming them for the burning of rome. let's not cloud the issues with the resurrection. [i agree with you that christians were not persecuted specifically because they believed in resurrection. however the beliefs that did cause trouble were dependent on belief in the resurrection of jesus. of course the problem with it is that there are alternatives other than a great conspiracy. the most common theory among non-christians scholars seems to be that the resurrection was a subjective event -- in effect, a delusion. --clh] 
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 i'm inclined to read descriptions such as the lake of fire as indicating annihilation. however that's a minority view. it's my personal view, but the only denominations i know of that hold it officially are the jw's and sda's. i can't find the reference right now, but didn't c.s.lewis speculate somewhere that hell might be "the state of once having been a human soul"? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20575">
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 eric ("damien"?) was presenting his views on christianity; i'll respond to a few of his points: |> firstly, i am an atheist. i am not posting here as an immature flame |> start, but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience. |> <<****strong opinions start here...****>> |> 1) the human being is an _animal_ who has, due to his/her advanced |> mental facilities, developed religion as a satisfiable solution to |> explain the unexplainable. (for example the ancient greeks believed |> that apollo drove his chariot across the sky each day was real. due |> to the advancement of our technology, we know this to be false.) this is certainly a valid objection to religion-as-explanation-of- fortunately for the convenience of us believers, there is a class of questions that can never be reduced away by natural science. for example: why does the universe exist at all? after all, the time-space world didn't have to exist. why does *anything* exist? and: is it possible for persons (e.g. man) to come into being out of a purely impersonal cosmos? these questions which look at the real mysteries of life -- the creation of the world and of persons -- provide a permanent indicator that the meaning of life in the material world can only be found *outside* that world, in its source. |> we are _just_ animals. we need sleep, food, and we reproduce. and we |> die. |> religion (especially christianity) is nothing more than a drug. |> some people use drugs as an escape from reality. christians inject |> themselves with jeezus and live with that high. when you say that man is *only* an animal, i have to think that you are presenting an unprovable statement -- a dogma, if you will. and one the requires a kind of "faith" too. by taking such a hard line in your atheism, you may have stumbled into a religion of your own. but before you write off all christianity as phony and shallow, i hope you'll do a little research into its history and varieties, perhaps by reading paul johnson's "a history of christianity". from your remarks, it seems that you have been exposed to certain types of christian religion and not others. even an atheist should have enough faith in man to know that a movement of 2000 years has to have some depth, and be animated by some enduring values. with best wishes, richard aquinas chonak, norris@mit.edu, usenet addict, intp i have very exclusive and nuanced opinions. license info available on request. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20576">
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 pardon me, a humble atheist, but exactly what is the difference between holding a revealed truth with blind faith as its basis (i.e. regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary) as an absolute truth, fully expecting people to believe you and arrogance? they sound like one and the same to me. i see no wisdom whatsoever in your words i'm not surprised that you see no wisdom in them. that is because your premises are wrong from the word "go". you claim that christianity is based on blind faith, but this simply is not so. just look at the current thread on the evidence for jesus' resurrection for evidence that jesus was real and that he triumphed over death. furthermore, you say that christians hold to their beliefs "regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary." without any evidence to support your claim, this statement is little more than an ad hominem mind you, i don't mean this as a personal attack. i'm merely pointing out the intellectual dishonesty behind condemning christianity in this fashion. it would make much more sense if you could prove that all christians do base their belief on empty nothings, and that they do ignore all evidence to the contrary. only then can you expect your attack to make sense. virgilio "dean" velasco jr, department of electrical eng'g and applied physics cwru graduate student, roboticist-in-training and q wannabee "bullwinkle, that man's intimidating a referee!" | my boss is a "not very well. he doesn't look like one at all!" | jewish carpenter. 
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 in soc.religion.christian you write: regarding david wilkerson's prophecies. while i'm not real sure of his credibility, i do remember a book he wrote, called a vision or something like that. he made a prediction that people who bought gold would be hurt financially. at the time, gold was up to about $800; now it is less than half that. this prediction stuck in my mind because a lot of people where i worked were buying gold. note that the above type of prediction does not require a god to be made. an expert in a field can also predict things based on experience. beware of predictions like "the volcano will erupt tomorrow!" don't follow the preacher because of such statements that come true. note also, that if i'm describing a (hypothetical) death of a friend as a result of his passion for fast motorcycles, i might say "his mother predicted he would die." of course, his father may have said "he 'll make good money because of his hobby" and depending upon the final outcome of the situation i end up mentioning the one that's relevant. a reader down the road will get the impression that the mother or father had predicted accurately the event, when it was just a casual statement. finally, on prophesies, note that there are many prophesies that can be fulfilled my people, often to fool believers. if i say, "beware, the terminal will unexpectedly be shut off!" and then after 2 secs i turn it off (or have someone come out from another room and do it) there was no prediction. a similar situation arises with the establishment of the jewish state. while pressing for it, prominent jews argued that it was predicted that they'd have a state again, and that the time has come. (i've read this somewhere, but can't think of the source - if you can, please let me know.) in this case, the establishment of the state does not really fulfill the prophesy since the prophesy was used in order to push for the establishment of the state. deciding what was truely a fulfillment of prophesy is very tricky. "my mother wanted to save herself until marriage. every |leonidas hepis day i thank god that she didn't. because without pre- | marital sex, i would never have been born. premarital |lhep_ltd@uhura sex -- what a beautiful choice." - greg weeks |.cc.rochester.edu 
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 dear netters: a new religious newsgroup "soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya" was pro- posed on oct 16, 1992. the discussion about this new proposed newsgroup went on in various related groups. the proposal, was supposed to enter a vote during the last week of november 92. due to a false call for votes, by some opponent, the voting had to be canceled. i quote here a statement from the moderator of new.announce.newgroups: "the current call for votes (cfv) for an ahmadiyya newsgroup is being canceled. a new call for votes will be issued within a few weeks, possibly with a new impartial vote taker. discus- sion on the proposal is still open until the new vote is called..." -- by lawrence, nov 20, 1992. a lot of confusion arose among the netter as to whom to vote. therefore it was decided to give a cool down period, so that all confusions are over. it has been over 4 months of that instant and now we are again attempting to create this newsgroup. a fresh rfd is hereby being issued. please! take part in the discussion under the same title heading and in "news.groups" or at least cross-post it to "news.groups". request for discussion name of proposed newsgroup: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya charter: a religious newsgroup, which would mainly discuss the be- liefs, teachings, philosophy and ideologies of all major reli- gions of the world as they exist to foster better religious knowledge and understanding among followers of all religions as they share common basis. this newsgroup will be devoted to build a peaceful mutual understanding of the ahmadiyya branch of islam, its peacefull beliefs, ideology and philosophy and how it is different from other branches of islam in fostering world peace and developing better understanding among religious people. it may also be used to post important religious events within the world wide ahmadiyya islamic community in general. purpose of the group: the following are some of the main purposes this group will achieve: i) to discuss the common beliefs of all major religions as they relate to ahmadiyya muslim community. ii) to discuss the doctrines, origin and teachings of this puissant spiritual force on earth. iii) to examine islamic teachings and beliefs in general in light of the quran and established islamic traditions of 15 centuries from ahmadiyya perspective. iv) to discuss the similarities between ahmadi muslims and people of other religions of the world and discuss how religious tolerance and respect to other's faiths can be brought about to eliminate inter-religion rivalries and hatred among people of religions. v) to discuss the origin and teachings of all religions in general and islamic and ahmadiyya muslims in particular to foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims and other religious people. vi) to discuss current world problems and solution to these problems as offered by religion. vii) to exchange important news and views about the ahmadiyya muslim community and other religions. viii)to add diversity in the religious newsgroups present on usenet. ix) to discuss why religious persecution is on the rise in the world and find solutions to remedy the ever deter- iorating situation in the world in general and in the islamic world in particular. x) to discuss the contributions of founders of all reli- gions and their people for humanity, society and world peace in general and by the international ahmadiyya mus -lim community in particular. type: the group will be moderated for orderly and free religious dialo- gue. the moderation will not prevent disagreement or dissent to beliefs, but will mainly be used to prevent derogatory/squalid use of dialect and irrelevant issues. the moderators have been decided through personal e-mail and through a general consensus among the proponants by discussion in news.groups. the following moderators have been proposed and agreed upon: moderator: nabeel a. rana (rana@rintintin.colorado.edu) co-moderator: dr. tahir ijaz (ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca) a brief description about ahmadiyya/islam: the ahmadiyya movement in islam, an international organi- sation, was founder in 1989 in qadian, india. the founder of this sect, hazrat mirza ghulam ahmad (1835-1908), proclaimed to be the promised reformer of this age as foretold in almost all the major religions of the world today (islam, christianity, judiasm, hin- duism). he claimed to be the long awaited second comming of jesus christ (metaphorically), the muslim mahdi, and the promised messiah. he claimed that the prophecies contained in almost all the great religions of the world about the advent of a messenger from god have been fulfilled. the claims hazrat ahmad raised storms of hostility and extreme oposition from many priestlike people of muslims, chris- tians, jews and hindus of that age. such opposition is often wit- nessed in the history of divine reformers. even today this sect is being persecuted specially in some of the muslim regimes. dispite the opposition and persecution, this sect has won many adherents in 130 countries. it has over 10 million followers, who come from a diverse ethnic and cultural background. the sect is devoted to world peace and in bringing about a better understanding of religion, and the founders of all reli- gions. its mission is to unite mankind into one universal broth- erhood and develop a better understanding of faith. ahmadi muslims have always been opposed to all kind of violence and spe- cially religious intollerance and fundamentalism. among its many philanthropic activities, the sect has es- tablished a network of hundreds of schools, hospitals, and clin- ics in many third world countries. these institutions are staffed by volunteer professional and are fully financed by the sect's internal resources. the ahmadiyya mission is to bring about a universal moral reform, establish peace and justice, and to unite mankind under one universal religion. newsgroup creation: when the call for votes is called, the discussion will officially end. voting will be held for about three weeks. if the group gets 2/3rd majority and 100 more "yes/create" votes than "no/don't create" votes; the group shall be created. any questions or comments may be included in the discussion or directly sent to: rana@rintintin.colorado.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20579">
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 in a previous article, dleonar@andy.bgsu.edu (pixie) says: do the words "question authority" mean anything to you? i defy any theist to reply. well, despite what my mother told me about accepting dares, here goes. you have to be very careful about what you mean by "question authority". taken literally, it is nonsense. that which is authoratative is authoratative, and to say "i question to word of this authority" is ridiculous. if it is open to question, it isn't an authority. on the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable to question whether something is an authority. the catch phrase here should be "authenticate authority." once you have authenticated your authority, you must believe what it says, or you are not treating it as an authority. the difficulty is that authenticating an authority is not easy. you can perhaps discredit a claim to authority by showing logical inconsistency in what it teaches, or by showing that it does not obey its own rules of discourse. but the fact that i cannot discredit something does not, in inself, accredit it. (nor does the fact that i can convince myself and other that i have discredited something necessarilly mean that it is false.) i cannot accredit an authority by independantly verifying its teachings, because if i can independantly verify its teachings, i don't need an authority. i need an authority only when there is information i need which i cannot get for myself. thus, if i am to authenticate an authority, i must do it by some means other than by examining its teachings. in practical matters we accept all kinds of authorities because we don't have time to rediscover fundamental knowledge for ourselves. every scientist woring today assumes, on the authority of the scintific community, all sorts of knowledge which is necessary to his work but which he has not time to verify for himself. in spiritual matters, we accept authority because we have no direct source ofinformation. we select our authorities based on various criteria. (i am a catholic, in part, because the historical claims of the rc church seem the strongest.) without authorities there would be no subject matter for belief, unless we simply made something up for ourselves (as many do). the atheist position seems to be that there are no authorities. this is a reasonable assertion in itself, but it leads to a practical difficulty. if you reject all authority out of hand, you reject all possibility of every receiving information. thus the atheist position can never possibly change. it is non-falsifiable and therefore unscintific. to demand scintific or rational proof of god's existence, is to deny god's existence, since neither science, nor reason, can, in their very nature, prove anything. mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20582">
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 i would like the opinion of netters on a subject that has been bothering my wife and me lately: liturgy, in particular, catholic liturgy. in the last fe years it seems that there are more and more ad hoc events during mass. it's driving me crazy! the most grace-filled aspect of a liturgical tradition is that what happens is something we _all_ do together, because we all know how do it. led by the priest, of course, which makes it a kind of dialogue we present to god. but the best masses i've been to were participatory prayers. on the one hand there are advantages to having the liturgy stay the same. john has described some of these. on the other hand, some people seem to start tuning out `the same old words' and pay attention better when things get changed around. i think innovative priests and liturgy committees are trying to get our attention and make things more meaningful for us. it drives me crazy too. different people have differing preferences and needs in liturgy. my local parish is innovative. i prefer to go to mass at the next parish over. sometimes we don't have the option of attending a mass in the style which best suits us. john put a smiley on it but to "just offer it up" probably is the solution. a related issue, that it sounds like john does not have to deal with, is that spouses may have different liturgical tastes. my husband does like innovative litury. it is a challenge to meet both of our spiritual needs without just going our separate ways. when you include the factor of also trying to satisfy our children's needs, things get pretty one thing to remember is that even the most uncongenial mass is still jayne kulikauskas/ jayne@mmalt.guild.org 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20583">
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 firstly, i am an atheist. i am not posting here as an immature flame start, but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience. [deleted] we are _just_ animals. we need sleep, food, and we reproduce. and we i am glad that i am not an atheist. it seems tragic that some people choose a meaningless existence. how terrible to go on living only because one fears death more than life. i feel so sorry for eric and yet any attempts to share my joy in life with him would be considered as further evidence of the infectious nature of christianity. as a christian i am free to be a human person. i think, love, choose, and create. i will live forever with god. christ is not a kind of drug. drugs are a replacement for christ. those who have an empty spot in the god-shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain. this is why the most effective substance-abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual thank you, eric for your post. it has helped me to appreciate how much god has blessed me. i hope that you will someday have a more joy-filled and abundant life. jayne kulikauskas/jayne@mmalt.guild.org 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20584">
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 the story i related is one of the seven apparitions approved by our church as worthy of belief. it happened in la salle, france. the moral lesson of the story is: the lamb of god has been sacrificed and his blood has been used to cleanse us of our sins every moment as god perceives worthy of being done in heaven. mary weeps for the lamb and for the rest of her offsprings. this will continue while we disobey god or sin against him. mary, as a messenger, has been given the task to make us be 'aware' of the evil serpent (communism, wars, famine, unfaithful, disobedience to god, etc.) running after the rest of her offsprings. the children who went astray by disobedience led by the dragon is brought back by her peace and loving messages, reparations for sins, to obey god's commandments and be more worthy to be in the presence of the lamb. as she was conceived without sin to be worthy of bearing the son of god in her womb, mary has been preparing us, the church, the body of christ, for his second coming (making sure we are protected from the dragon). also, she has been preparing the new eden, by reversing the deed of the ancient eve. the new eden will be the sanctuary of the righteous as judged by christ in his next coming. i relate the story again: i believe this and mary, in one of her apparitions in 19th or 20th century, she appeared to these two children who tends goats and cows (i forgot the exact place). she was weeping and telling the children that she is afraid she's "going to lose her son's arm". she is mourning too for these townfolks because it was their fault that there would be drought in their harvest; not much good food again this year as it was last year. mary tells the children: * most of the townfolks in this place worked whole * * week even on sundays when they should be in church * * honoring god. these townfolks swears and * * uses her son's name in bad words. that is * why her son's arm is so heavy in pain. then she asked them if they pray. the children said "hardly". she asked them to pray every morning and night. when the children went back from work they had to tell somebody about this. when the news was spred and after thorough * investigation of the incident, the townfolks * * were converted and faith and obedience to god * * were restored in their community. * once again, the lamb succeeds. "...spreading god's words through actions..." -mother teresa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20588">
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 hi there, does anyone know about any greek database/word processor that can do things like count occurrences of a word, letter et al? i'm posting this up for a friend who studies greek. p.s. can you email as i seldom look into usenet nowadays. | nicodemus chan, | raffles hall, nus, kent ridge cres. | | department of information systems | singapore 0511. (tel : 02-7797751) | | & computer science, | [hometown address]: | | national university of singapore. | 134, nanyang estate, jinjang north | | kent ridge crescent, | 52000, kuala lumpur, malaysia | | singapore 0511 | e-mail : isc10144@nusunix.nus.sg | | | channico@iscs.nus.sg | "call unto me and i will answer you and show thee great and unsearchable things you do not know." jeremiah 33:3 
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 (2) nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus, even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so (it would have discredited the christians). it is told in the gospels that the pharisees (sp.?) and scribes bribed the roman soldiers to say that the diciples stole his body in the night. good enough excuse for the jewish and roman objectives (of that day). --clator --lbutler@hubcap.clemson.edu 
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 subject pretty much says it all - i'm looking for johnny hart's (creator of the b.c. comic stip) mailing address. for those of you who haven't seen them, take a look at his strips for good friday and easter sunday. remarkable witness! if anyone can help me get in touch with him, i'd really appreciate it! i've contacted the paper that carries his strip and -- they'll get back to me with it! thanks for your help, dave arndt st. peter's evangelical lutheran church st. peter, mn 56082 darndt@nic.gac.edu 
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 example. last sunday (palm sunday) we went to the local church. usually on palm sunday, the congregation participates in reading the passion, taking the role of the mob. the theology behind this seems profound--when we say "crucify him" we mean it. we did it, and if he came back today we'd do it again. it always gives me chills. but last week we were "invited" to sit during the gospel (=passion) and _listen_. besides the orwellian "invitation", on palm sunday at our parish, we were "invited" to take the role of jesus in the passion. i declined to participate. last year at the liturgy meeting i pointed out how we crucify christ by our sins, so therefore it is appropriate that we retain the role of the crowd, but to no avail. musicians, readers, and so on. new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what's happening, the new things have to be explained, and pretty soon instead of _doing_ a lot of the mass we're just sitting there listening (or spacing out, in my case) to how the mass is about to be done. in my mind, i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay "experts", but that may not be just. i do think that a liturgy committee has a bias toward doing something rather than nothing--that's just a fact of bureaucratic life--even though a simpler liturgy may in fact make it easier for people to be aware of the lord's presence. as a member of a liturgy committee, i can tell you that the problem is certain people dominating, who want to try out all kinds of innovations. the priests don't seem even to _want_ to make any decisions of their own in many cases. i guess it's easier to "try something new" than it is to refuse to allow it. at our parish on holy thursday, instead of the priests washing feet ("who wants to get around people's feet," according to one of our priests) the congregation was "invited" to come up and help wash one another's hands. the symbolism of this action distressed me, and again i refused to participate. i thought that if we were to have to come up with rubrics for this liturgical action (i.e. "body of christ" -- "amen" for receiving communion), that they could be "i am not responsible for the blood of this man." also for part of the eucharistic prayer ("blessed are you, god of all creation...") was substituted some text read by a lay couple. the priest certainly should not have given this part of the mass over to others, and i was so disturbed that i declined to receive communion that night (we aren't required to anyway -- i instead offered up prayers for our priests and parish). so we've been wondering--are we the oddballs, or is the quality of the mass going down? i don't mean that facetiously. we go to mass every thursday or friday and are reminded of the power of a very simple liturgy to make us aware of god's presence. but as far as the obligatory sunday masses...maybe i should just offer it up :) has anyone else noticed declining congregational participation in catholic masses lately? the quality of the mass has not changed. again, if it were to be celebrated according to the rubrics set down by the church, it would still be "liturgically" beautiful. the problem comes about from people trying to be "creative" who are not. i think the answer to your question on participation could be that given by father peter stravinskas in answer to the question posed by the title of thomas day's _why catholics can't sing_. "they don't want to" because of all this nonsense. by the way, for any non-catholics reading this, the problem does not reflect bad liturgy by the catholic church, but by those who are disobedient to the church in changing it on their own "authority." steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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 dean velasco quoted a letter from james m stowell, president of moody bible institute: the other day, i was at the dry cleaner and the radio was playing. it caught my attention because a talk show guest was criticizing evangelical christians, saying we believe in absolutes and think we are the only ones who know what the absolutes are. we affirm the absolutes of scripture, not because we are arrogant moralists, but because we believe in god who is truth, who has revealed his truth in his word, and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes." there has been a lot of discussion, but so far nobody seems to have hit on exactly what the criticism of "arrogance" is aimed at. the arrogance being attacked is that we "think we are the only ones who know what the absolutes are". in short, many evangelicals claim that they are infallible on the matter of religious texts. in particular, the problem is one of epistemology. as a shorthand, you can think of epistemology as "how do you know?" that question, it turns out, is a very troubling one. the problem with `absolute certainty' is that, at the bottom, at least some of the thinking goes on inside your own head. unless you can be certain that everything which happens in your head is infallible, the reasoning you did to discover a source of truth is in question. and that means you do not have absolute justification for your source of authority -- which means you do not have absolute certainty. let's take the specific example of biblical inerrancy, and a fictional inerrantist named zeke. (the following arguments applies to the idea of papal infallibility, too.) zeke has, we presume, spent some time studying the bible, and history, and several other topics. he has concluded, based on all these studies (and possibly some religious experiences) that the bible is a source of absolute he may be correct; but even if he is, he cannot be certain that he is correct. his conclusion depends on how well he studied history -- he may have made mistakes, and the references he used may have contained mistakes. his conclusion depends on how well he studied the bible -- he may have made mistakes. his conclusion depends on his own reasoning -- and he may have made mistakes. (noticing a common thread yet? 8-) everything about his study of the world that he did -- everything that happened in his own head -- is limited by his own thinking. no matter what he does to try and cover his mistakes, he can never be certain of his own infallibility. as long as any part of the belief is based on his own reasoning, that belief cannot be considered "absolutely certain". zeke believes that he has found a source of absolute truth -- but that belief is only as good as the quality of the search he made for it. unless he can say that his own reasoning is flawless, his conclusions are in doubt. any belief that you hold about absolute sources of truth depends in part on your own thinking -- there is no way out of the loop. only an infallible thinker can have absolute certainty in all his beliefs. this is easy to demonstrate. let's go back to our shorthand method of doing epistemology: "how do you know?" imagine a hypothetical discussion: a: the bible is a source of absolute truth. b: how do you know? a: i studied history and the bible and religious writings and church teachings and came to this conclusion. b: how do you know you studied history correctly? a: well, i double-checked everything. b: how do you know you double-checked correctly? a: well, i compared my answers with some smart people and we agreed. b: just because some smart guy believes something that doesn't mean it is true. how do you know they studied it correctly? a: ... and, as you see, b will eventually get a to the point where he has to say "i can't prove that there are no mistakes" -- and as long as you may have made a mistake, then you cannot be absolutely certain. there is no way out of the loop. this is where the "arrogance of christians" arises: many people believe that their own personal research can give them absolute certainty about the doctrines of christianity -- they are implicitly claiming that they are infallible, and that there is no possibility of mistake. claiming that you cannot have made a mistake, and that your thinking has led you to a flawless conclusion, is pretty arrogant. people who want to see this argument explained in great detail should try to find _the infallibility of the church_, by george salmon. he is attacking the idea that the pope can be knowably infallible (and he does so very well), but the general argument applies equally well to the idea that the bible is knowably inerrant. darren f provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu "at the core of all well-founded belief, lies belief that is unfounded." -- ludwig wittgenstein 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20597">
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 according to what i have read on biblical idioms, speaking "in x's name" is a standard aramaic/hebrew legal idiom for what we today would call power of attorney. a person from jesus' culture authorized to conduct business "in john's name" had full authority over john's financial affairs, but was held under a solemn fiduciary obligation to work only for john's benefit and consonant with john's wishes. it was not required for the steward to preface each business transaction with "in john's name"; it was sufficient to have valid power of attorney and be operating in good faith. (note the overlap here between legal and religious definitions of "faith".) with this cultural background, praying "in jesus' name" does not mandate a particular verbal formula; rather it requires that the petitioner be operating faithfully and consciously within an analogous "fiduciary" relationship with jesus and for the purposes of his kingdom. the message of "praying in jesus' name" is thus closely aligned with the parable of the talents and other passages about god's delegation of kingdom business to his stewards, both resources and responsibilities. this idea of praying "in jesus' name" is not only present but prominent in the lord's prayer, although the verbal forumula is absent. the act of praying the words "in jesus' name" may be beneficial if they cause us to clarify the relationship of our requests to the advancement of god's kingdom. for that reason, i'm not quite ready to say that the praying the formula is without meaning. prayers to god for other purposes (desperation, anger, thanksgiving, etc.) don't seem to be in this category at all, whether uttered by christian or non-christian, whether b.c. or a.d. (that's b.c.e. or c.e. for you p.c. :-). i don't see anything in christ's words to contradict the idea that god deals with all prayers according to his omniscience and grace. van kelly vek@research.att.com the above opinions are my own, and not those of at&t. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20600">
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 the real problem was that christians were pacifist and preached there was only one god. when the state operates by a system of divinitation of the emperor - monotheism becomes a capital offense. the jews were able to get exemption from this, and were also not evangelistic. i disagree with your claim that jews were not evangelistic (except in the narrow sense of the word). jewish proselytism was widespread. there are numerous accounts of jewish proselytism, both in the new testament and in roman and greek documents of the day. =jim eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (jim eggert) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20601">
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 the concept of god as a teacher is indeed interesting. does he grade on a curve, does he cheat? that is interesting. not to mention thought provoking. my own concept is that he is a father and we are his children. in that he loves us, with a love that we can never understand until we are with him. the bible says that he looks on the heart as the final measure. from that perspective, in a grading context, the heart is the final test. specifically, most christians would agree that there is only one heaven and one hell. from that perspective, it is heaven or hell. you either go to one or the other. the "grading" on a pass/fail basis is done by god the father with intervention by jesus the son. not by others. for only god sees the heart. the bible says of the heart, "...who can know it." i would say there has always been, and always be, an unchanging method. that is what makes a relationship with christ so secure. in an uncertain and ever changing landscape he is always the same. yesterday, today and tomorrow. concerning whether or not our childhoods are considerd as part of the test, my own conviction is no. were that the case i certainly wouldn't be going to heaven. the bible speaks very plainly about the love and care jesus had for and about children. the reality is that we are all children. some of us just have bigger bodies and grey hair. but the father, our father is always there. like most fathers he wants only the best for his own. there maybe decipline, but there is more love. it's sometimes looks like christianity is a test, to see who makes it and who doesn't. those who do pass=heaven, and those who don't go to the other place. but it is really much more than that... there are few experts. most of us are just travelers looking for the light and the way home. praying that we can bring others with us. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20602">
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 i'm inclined to read descriptions such as the lake of fire as indicating annihilation. however that's a minority view. it's my personal view, but the only denominations i know of that hold it officially are the jw's and sda's. i can't find the reference right now, but didn't c.s.lewis speculate somewhere that hell might be "the state of once having been a human soul"? why is it that we have this notion that god takes some sort of pleasure from punishing people? the purpose of hell is to destroy the devil and his angels. to the earlier poster who tried to support the eternal hell theory with the fact that the fallen angels were not destroyed, remember the bible teaches that god has reserved them until the day of judgement. their judgement is soon to come. let me suggest this. maybe those who believe in the eternal hell theory should provide all the biblical evidence they can find for it. stay away from human theories, and only take into account references in the bible. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20604">
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 hi all hope you all had a blessed easter. i have a document which i believe refutes the notion that the sspx (society of saint pius x) is in schism, or that there has been any legitimate excommunication. if anyone is interested in reading the truth about this matter please email me and i'll send them the document via email. its 26 pages long, so i wont be posting it on the news group. its titled neither schismatic nor excommunicated this article was originally an english translation, by the society of saint pius x in ireland, from the french journal 'courrier de rome'. the french article, in its turn, was a translation from the italian of the roman newsletter 'si si no no'. this booklet contains the transcription, with some minor editing, of the irish article, and was transcribed and produced by john clay, townsville, queensland, australia. (there is no copyright attached. simon shields) neither schismatic nor excommunicated.......................1 catholics on the rack.......................................1 the choice of the 'sensus fidei'............................3 ambiguity...................................................4 the church is not bicephalous (two-headed)..................6 the person and the function of the pope.....................6 unity of faith and unity of communion.......................8 the criteria of choice.....................................10 ecumenism - an attack on the unity of the church...........10 the extraordinary situation within the church..............11 extraordinary duties of lay people.........................12 duties and powers of bishops...............................14 from the fact of their greater duties......................14 from the fact of their greater power.......................14 the power and the duty of the papacy.......................15 the election of bishops....................................15 state and right of necessity...............................16 1. there is in the church a real state of necessity........17 for souls..................................................18 for seminarians............................................18 2. all the ordinary means have been exhausted..............19 3. the act itself is not intrinsically evil and there resul..........21 4. in the limits of effective requirements.................22 5. the authority of the pope is not put into question......23 the excommunication........................................24 conclusion.................................................25 bibliography...............................................26-31 god bless ye all, an irish fairwell may the road rise to meet you may the wind be always at your back may the sun shine warm upon your face, the rains fall soft upon your fields, and until we meet again, may god hold you in the palm of his hand. | simon p. shields programmer viva cristo rey !! ----|---- | | monash university college gippsland ph:+61 51 226 357 .jhs. | | switchback rd. churchill. fax:+61 51 226 300 |\|/| | | australia 3842 internet: simon@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au |m j| | 
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 seanna@bnr.ca (seanna (s.m.) watson) asks: what is the objection to celebration of easter? the objection naturally is in the way in which you phrase it. easter (or eashtar or ishtar or ishtarti or other spellings) is the pagan whore goddess of fertility. therefore, your question to me is "what is the objection to celebration of the pagan whore goddess?" when phrased that way i suspect (or at least i would hope) that it becomes immeadiately apparent what my objection to "celebrating" her would be. it is celebration of the resurrection of jesus. no, you are thinking perhaps of "ressurection sunday" i think. (though i'm not too crazy about the word "sunday", but i certainly like this phrasing much better than envoking the name of the whore goddess.) for that matter, stay biblical and call it omar rasheet (the feast of first fruits). torah commands that this be observed on the day following the sabbath of passover week. (sunday by any other name in modern parlance.) why is there so much objection to observing the resurrection on the 1st day of the week on which it actually occured? why jump it all over the calendar the way easter does? why not just go with the sunday following passover the way the bible has it? why seek after unbiblical i don't recall a command in scripture for us to celebrate the resurrection, but it is the sole and only reason that we are christians--how could we not celebrate it? so what does this question have to do with easter (the whore goddess)? i am all for celebrating the resurrection. just keep that whore out of the discussion. if it is only the name which is a problem, i suggest that if we are too concerned about etymology, there are a lot of words we are going to have to drop. (as an aside, some terminally pc people here in ottawa want dictionaries to be altered so that there are no negative definitions associated with the word _black_, so as not to offend people of colour. yes, i have heard of your newspapers speaking of the need to repave streets with "afro-canadiantop". <grin> (i still think "blacktop" sounds better though.) as a short person, i hope they will also remove the definition "curt or surly" associated with my physical description.) fine by me. and while we are at it, the left-handed people are both "sinister" and "gauche" so we probably will have some objections from that quarter as well. in quebec french, the word for the celebration of the resurrection is "pa^ques"--this is etymologically related to pesach (passover) and the pascal lamb. so is the french canadian (mostly roman catholic) celebration better because it uses the right name? yes, that sounds much better to me. is there anyone out there would thinks that phrasing sounds worse? so from this i infer that there are different rules for christians of jewish descent? what happened to "there is neither jew nor greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all are one in christ jesus"? read the letter to philemon. now tell me, was philemon's "slave" returned to him? were there different rules upon the slave than upon philemon? how about male and female? are there different "rules" that apply to them as well? or if there is no more "male and female" can adam and steve get married to each other in your congregation? yes, there are differences in form and function. but the way we come to salvation in messiah remains the same no matter what our position in life. [i am in general not in favor of continuing this discussion, as it seems repetitive, but this particular point is one that i believe is new -- the objection is not to having a holiday but to its name. i'd like to suggest that people think very carefully about this argument. words often change their meaning over time. the days of the week are of course originally based on pagan gods. some christians prefer to refer to "first day", "second day", etc. however the majority of christians have not been persuaded. the question seems to be whether it makes any difference what the dictionary shows as the derivation of a word, if what people mean by it and think when they use it is different. indeed i'd like to suggest that postings like this could themselves be dangerous. suppose people in general use easter to mean the celebration of christ's resurrection. postings trying to convince them that they really mean a celebration in honor of some godess run the risk of creating exactly the situation that they claim to oppose. they are doing their best to *create* a linkage in people's minds between their celebration and the pagan goddess. it's not clear that this is a healthy thing. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20606">
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 i just about closed this once before. i'm now doing so for real, after tonight's posting. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20609">
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 now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices, as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days. although the israeli government will give the permission to start, i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen. brothers and sisters, the time is at hand. our redemption is drawing near. look up! how is a scriptural levitical priesthood resumed? are there any jews who can legitimately prove their levite bloodline? todd stevens tcsteven@iaserv.b1.ingr.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20610">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20610" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 seanna@bnr.ca (seanna (s.m.) watson) asks: what is the objection to celebration of easter? the objection naturally is in the way in which you phrase it. easter (or eashtar or ishtar or ishtarti or other spellings) is the pagan whore goddess of fertility. it is celebration of the resurrection of jesus. no, you are thinking perhaps of "ressurection sunday" i think. tsk.tsk. too much argument on non-issues ! i'm roman catholic and it seems to me that people celebrate easter and christmas for itself rather than how it relates to jesus. i don't really care about some diety. if people have some other definition of easter, then that's their business. don't let it interfere with my easter. "resurrection sunday" 8-) where did that come from ? if people celebrate easter for the cadburry bunny, that's their business. so from this i infer that there are different rules for christians of jewish descent? what happened to "there is neither jew nor greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all are one in christ jesus"? i've always been curious about this. is jesus important to jews at all ? i thought he was thought of only as a prophet ? if that's true what do they celebrate easter for ? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20611">
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 i have been looking for a book that specifically addresses the mystery of god in the paradox. i have read some that touch on the subject in a chapter but would like a more detailed read. is anyone aware of any books that deal with this subject. please e-mail me. thanks. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20612">
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 i would like to get your opinions on this: when exactly does an engaged couple become "married" in god's eyes? some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry, have made their vows to god, and are unswervingly committed to one another (i realize this is a subjective qualifier) they are married/joined in god's sight. suppose they are unable to get before the altar right at the current time because of purely logistical reasons beyond their control. what do you think about this? post or e-mail me with general responses. if you need clarification as to what i am asking, please e-mail. thanks and god bless! robert m. anderson iii randerso@acad1.sahs.uth.tmc.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20613">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20613" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i have a few minor problems with the article posted as proof of christ's resurrection. first the scriptural quotations: this sort of reasoning is such that if you beleive you are justified, if not then your beleif is in vain, so you might as well beleive. most of these quotations are of people who do beleive. people who would try to justify their own positions. second the logical proof: quoted text... [much deleted] 4. in nearly 20 centuries, no body has ever been produced to refute jesus' assertion that he *would indeed* rise from the dead. 5. the probability of being able to perpetrate such a hoax successfully upon the entire world for nearly 20 centuries is astronomically negative! ...end quoted text the period of time that has elapsed from the event growing larger does not increase the odds that a hoax would be discovered. in fact the longer a hoax is perpetuated the stronger it becomes. finally: there is no proof of the resurrection of christ, except in our spirits communion with his, and the father's. it is a matter of faith, belief without logical proof. incedently one of the largest stumbling blocks for rational western man, myself included. i hope that this is taken in the spirit it was intended and not as a rejection of the resurrection's occurance. i beleive, but i wanted to point out the weakness of logical proofs. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20620">
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 i just started reading the group. i was wondering if someone could re-post exactly what the prophetic warning to nyc was. [i suggest sending it to him via email with a cc to me. i'll hold it in my files in case someone else needs it. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20621">
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 there has been some talk recently of latin rites from the early church used to bless same-sex unions.if anyone has any idea where copies of these rites exist (in whole or in part), please notify me by e-mail. (i understand that similar ceremonies written in slavonic exist as well. let me know where i can find these.) it doesn't matter whether the latin rite is in the original or a translation. however, i would prefer to have an english version of the slavon- ic rite, if it exists. thanks in advance. doug hayes @ psu [we've had questions about this in the past. the only source i know of is claims by john boswell in some talks. he is said to be working on publication, but as far as i know, nothing is published yet. i haven't heard of any other source. if anyone knows of another source, please tell us. but i think we're going to have to wait for boswell's publication to appear in order to see what he's really talking about. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20622">
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 darius> let me suggest this. maybe those who believe in the eternal darius> hell theory should provide all the biblical evidence they can darius> find for it. stay away from human theories, and only take darius> into account references in the bible. like most topics, we've been through this one before, but here is a good start: matthew 25:46: "then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." i may post more on this subject when i have more time. in any case, it is clear that the fate of the damned is most unpleasant, and to be avoided. david wagner "sola scriptura!" a confessional lutheran [i'd like to suggest that discussions based on single quotations are a bad way to proceed. there are passages consistent with either theory. the sensible way to proceed is to look at them all, and see if we can come up with a view that encompasses all of them. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20623">
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 religious people are threatened by science because it has been systematically removing the physical "proofs" of god's existence. as time goes on we have to rely more and more on faith and the spiritual world to relate to god becuase science is removing our props. i don't think this is a bad thing. first of all, i resent your assumption that you know why i am threatened by science, or even that i am threatened at all, although i admit the latter. the reason i am threatened by science has nothing to do with my need for proof of my lord's existence-- god reveals himself in many ways, including, to some degree, my problem with science is that often it allows us to assume we know what is best for ourselves. god endowed us with the ability to produce life through sexual relations, for example, but he did not make that availible to everyone. does that mean that if science can over-ride god's decision through alterations, that god wills for us to have the power to decide who should and should not be able to have children? should men be allowed to have babies, if that is made possible. people have always had the ability to end lives unnaturally, and soon may have the ability to bring lives into the world unnaturally. the closest thing to artificially created life is artificially created death, and as god has reserved judgement about when people should die to himself, i believe we should rely on god's wisdom about how people should be brought in to the world. this is not to say that i reject all forms of medical treatment, however. treatment that alleviates pain, or prevents pain from occuring, is perfectly acceptable, i believe, as it was acceptable for jesus to cure the sick. however, treatment that merely prolongs life for no reason, or makes unnecessary alterations to the body for mere aesthetic purposes, go too far. are we not happy with the beauty god gave us? i cannot draw a solid line regarding where i would approve of scientific study, and where i would not, but i will say this: before one experiments with the universe to find out all its secrets, one should ask why they want this knowledge. before one alters the body they have been given, they should ask themseles why their body is not satisfactory too them as it is. i cannot make any general rules that will cover all the cases, but i will say that each person should pray for guidance when trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, and should cease their unravelling if they have reason to believe their search is displeasing to god. ---malcusco 
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 are all truths also absolutes? is all of scripture truths (and therefore absolutes)? the answer to both questions is yes. perhaps we have different definitions of absolute then. to me, an absolute is something that is constant across time, culture, situations, etc. true in every instance possible. do you agree with this definition? i think you do: similarly, all truth is absolute. indeed, a non-absolute truth is a contradiction in terms. when is something absolute? when it is always true. obviously, if a "truth" is not always "true" then we have a contradiction in terms. i agree with carol here. determining absolutes is, practically speaking, a waste of time. and we easily forget that relative truth is, in fact relative. for example, i recently was asking some children the question "what temperature does water boil at?" i got the answer 212 degrees consistently. i asked if they knew what scale, and was told "it's just 212 degrees. any scale. that's what all thermometers say." well, that's sincere, and may be true in the experience of the speaker, but it is simply wrong. it is not an absolute truth. similarly, scripture is full of truth, which we should nurture and cherish, but trying to determine which parts are absolute truth and which parts are the manifestations of that in the context of the time and culture in which the text was penned is missing the point. then religion easily becomes an intellectual head-trip, devoid of the living experience of the indwelling trinity and becomes dead scholasticism, imo. [example of head-covering in church deleted] this was a good example. there may be an absolute truth behind the writing, but the simplest understanding of the passage is that the instructions apply to the corinthians, and not necessarily elsewhere. the instructions may reflect absolute truth in the context of first century culture and the particular climate at corinth, which was having a lot of trouble with order. is it absolute truth to me? no. and i see no compelling, or even reasonable, reason that it should be. evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth. (and there are plenty of other examples.) can you reconcile this? even the most die-hard literalists do not take all of the bible literally. i've yet to meet anyone who takes the verse "blessed is he who takes your babies and smashes their heads against the rocks" literally. the bible was not printed or handed to us by god with color codings to tell us what parts should be interpreted which way. many people claim that there are no absolutes in the world. such a statement is terribly self-contradictory. let me put it to you this way. if there are no absolutes, shouldn't we conclude that the statement, "there are no absolutes" is not absolutely true? obviously, we have a contradiction here. i don't claim that there are *no* absolutes. i think there are very few, though, and determining absolutes is difficult. i agree. very few. and even if we knew them, personally, we may not be able to express that in a way that still conveys absolute truth to another. the presence of absence of absolutes may not make any difference, since i know i can never fully apprehend an absolute if it walks up and greets me. there is hardly consensus, even in evangelical christianity (not to mention the rest of christianity) regarding biblical interpretation. so? people sometimes disagree about what is true. this does not negate the fact, however, that there are still absolutes in the universe. i can't prove the existence of absolutes. i can only rely upon my experience. i also trust god's revelation that we cannot fully comprehend the infinite. therefore we can't comprehend the absolutes. so i don't need them. i can never know the essence of god, only the energies by and through which god is manifested to god's creation. so the reality can be that there are absolutes, but it is of no practical importance. it's like claiming that the original scriptural autographs were perfect, but copies may not be. swell. who cares? it doesn't affect me in any practical useful way. i might as well believe that god has made a lot of electric blue chickens, and that they live on mars. maybe god did. so what? is that going to have any effect on how i deal with my neighbor, or god? whether or not i go to this or that cafeteria for lunch? no. this attitude leads many non-christians to believe that all christians are arrogant idiots incapable of critical reasoning. christianity is true, wonderful and sensible. it appeals to reason, since reason is an inner reflection of the logos of god. explanations that violate that simply appear to be insecure authoritarian responses to a complex world. note: i'm not claiming there is no place for authority. that'd be silly. there is a world of difference between authoritative and authoritarian. authoritative is en expression of authority that respects others. authoritarian is en expression of authority that fails to do that, and is generally agressive. good parents (like god) are authoritative. many christians are simply authoritarian, and, not surprisingly, few adults respond to this treatment. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com 
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 hi all hope you all had a blessed easter. i have a document which i believe refutes the notion that the sspx (society of saint pius x) is in schism, or that there has been any legitimate excommunication. if anyone is interested in reading the truth about this matter please email me and i'll send them the document via email. its 26 pages long, so i wont be posting it on the news group. i may be interesting to see some brief selections posted to the net. my understanding is that sspx does not consider itself in schism or legitimately excommunicated. but that's really beside the point. what does the roman catholic church say? excommunication can be real apart from formal excommunication, as provided for in canon law. after all we orthodox don't cinsider ourselves schismatic or excommunicated. but the catholic church considers us dissident. if this is inappropriate for this group or beyond the charter, i'm sure ofm will let us know. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com [i think it's within the charter. whether this is actually the best group in which to discuss it is up to the people concerned. i am not interested in having this reinvoke the general catholic/protestant polemics, but i don't see why it should -- the issue is primarily one specific to catholics. --clh] 
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 on palm sunday at our parish, we were "invited" to take the role of jesus in the passion. i declined to participate. last year at the liturgy meeting i pointed out how we crucify christ by our sins, so therefore it is appropriate that we retain the role of the crowd, but to no avail. musicians, readers, and so on. new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what's happening, the new things have to be explained, and pretty soon instead of _doing_ a lot of the mass we're just sitting there listening (or spacing out, in my case) to how the mass is about to be done. in my mind, i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay people to be aware of the lord's presence. as a former catholic and now as a very active lutheran - it is some of the "innovations" of the mass which made me leave the catholic church and return to the more traditional catholic chuch - the lutherans. i spent many years as a lector reading the passion parts as appropriate in the catholic church and i found it very meaningful. our lutheran parish just instituted the "tenebrae" service for good friday and i was the lector for a paraphrased passion which was exceptional. i heard and learned things that i have previously overlooked in the gospels - yet those "facts" were always there. as a matter of interest, the pastor and i were talking about the differences between the rc and lutheran church during holy week over breakfast easter sunday. as a member of a liturgy committee, i can tell you that the problem is certain people dominating, who want to try out all kinds of innovations. the priests don't seem even to _want_ to make any decisions of their own in many cases. i guess it's easier to "try something new" than it is to refuse to allow it. my wife is the member of the liturgy committee in the family (called music and worship at our church). our pastor does have control of this committee but listens very carefully to the committee's suggestions. it needs a strong hand to lead and guide, to keep the intent and the message clear and strong as it should be through lent and the rest of the liturgical year. additional reason for my leaving the catholic faith - lack of any selfless spiritual guidance by priests in my parishes. aka "wishy-washy". as you may gather from my comments, i feel that it is very important, ir- regardless of denominational guidelines, to have a service/mass which promotes the true reason that we are gathered there. i am quite comfortable in a traditional mass, with receiving holy communion on the tongue, the sacrament of penance (not reconciliation), stations of the cross, so on and so forth. the reason other types of masses and parishes exist is because these feelings are not shared by everyone. i want more people to attend church and to find the lord, but i don't want them attending a show. it's not. my church works hard to have a meaningful service during lent on wednesdays, but follow traditional lutheran book of worship guidelines. where things are changed or omitted during lent (such as the hymn of praise) it is noted so that we are aware of the reasons that it is not there. quite frankly, it is very hard for a non-catholic to go to a mass and "fit in". my dear wife never could (former methodist). and holy week masses and vigils would intimidate the daylights out of a non-catholic. those catholics who have beared with me this far understand what i mean. please keep in mind why we are there - to gather together in worship. not to worry about how something is done or not done. if there is something wrong that you feel needs addressing, by all means talk to your priest or pastor. i have only ever met one who wouldn't listen. they are there to provide spiritual guidance and to help. use them. my differences with the catholic church are much more fundamental - but my decision to change faiths was done with prayer, intervention, and sessions with priests and in christ, kershner wyatt kwyatt@ccscola.columbiasc.ncr.com my opinions are my own and aren't necessarily my employer's. 
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 does anyone know anything about this group and what they do? any info would be appreciated. thanks! 
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 i'd like to share my thoughts on this topic of "arrogance of christians" and look forward to any responses. in my encounters with christians, i find myself dismayed by their belief that their faith is total truth. according to them, their beliefs come from the bible and the bible is the word of god and god is truth - thus they know the truth. this stance makes it difficult to discuss other faiths with them and my own hesitations about christianity because they see no other way. their way is the 'truth.' but i see their faith arising from a willful choice to believe a particular way. that choice is part faith and part reason, but it seems to me a choice. [i'm sort of mystified about how a christian might respond to this.] i'll start with a parable. a christian woman hires a carpenter to build her a birdhouse. when he comes over, they begin talking about religion. "so you believe that you understand god?" he asks. "yes, i do," she replies. "then have him build you the birdhouse." i don't think that melinda is complaining about the basis of christian belief. however, there is a tendency among christians to say, "i have all the answers because god gave them to me." this is simply not the case. i believe that the bible is inerrant. however, our human interpretations of the bible are necessarily in error, because we are human and imperfect. we have to remember that we all make mistakes in faith, and that because we are human we have an imperfect understanding of the mind and will of god. to claim, as so many people do, that the existence of the bible allows us to determine the answers to all questions is to claim that we humans can fully understand god's will. this is hubris. 
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 hello, i am about to embark on a bible study on acts. i have online bible software with me. i would like to know the the background of the authors of its various topics articles and about the author of the people's new testament. i need to know how realible is the articles in the online bible software. specifically (for your convenience) i want to know about the : 1. darby translation ( i have never heard of this one) 2. young's literal translation (i have also never heard of) 3. the realiability of the hebrew/greek lexicon 4. the authors (from which denomination etc) of the articles in the topics modules. 5. the realiability of the treasury of scripture knowlege ( as i have never heard of too) 6. who are the commentators, scofield and b.w. johnson who wrote the scofield reference bible and the people's new testament respectively 7. the realiability of the strong numbers. i will be most happy to receive a reply of any of you who knows about the above. also, please 'qualify' yourself so that i may know that i am not receiving a 'rubbish' letter. i just want to make sure. wilfred ling *name : wilfred ling siew wee | national university of s'pore * *internet : eng10205@nusunix.nus.sg | electrical engineering * *bitnet : eng10205@nusvm.bitnet | * 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20652">
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 in the new testament (sorry i don't have a bible at work, and can't provide a reference), women are instructed to be silent and cover their heads in church. now, this is scripture. by your definition, this is truth and therefore absolute. do women in your church speak? do they cover their heads? if all scripture is absolute truth, it seems to me that women speaking in and coming to church with bare heads should be intolerable to evangelicals. yet, clearly, women do speak in evangelical churches and come with bare heads. (at least this was the case in the evangelical churches i grew up in.) evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth. (and there are plenty of other examples.) can you reconcile this? the problem you see here is that some christians claim things about the bible which they don't actually believe or practice. i've known all sorts of christians, ranging from the trendiest of liberals to the fire-breathing fundamentalists, and although many on the conservative side of the christian faith do claim that the bible is a (perhaps *the*) source of absolute truth, i don't know of anyone who treats it as anything other than a valuable part of a living tradition. while i am not a roman catholic, i believe this is close to the official position of the rc church (perhaps an rc would like to comment). the particular practice you refer to will usually be explained in terms of the social context of the time. you would think the fact that the conservatives seem to have to break out the tophat-and-cane and give you some big song-and-dance routine about why this (other passages as well) aren't directly applicable today would show them that what they claim about the bible and what they actually practice are two different things, but mostly it doens't. while this thread is supposed to be about the arrogance of christians, i would suggest that some of the problem is really hypocrasy, in this case, making claims about the bible which the claimants don't actually put into practice. but if we step back from the name-calling and look at what people are attempting to say, we see that they are trying to express very concisely the unique place the bible holds within the christian faith. so when people use such words or phrases as "word of god", "inerrant", "infallibale", "the manufacturer's handbook", "the only rule of faith and practice in the church today" to describe the bible, we should try to hear what they are saying and not just look at the mere words they use. some of the above descriptions are demostratably false and others are self-contradictory, but in my experience people are generally pretty good at picking out the intention of the speaker even when the speaker's words are at variance with their intentions. a biblical example is from the garden of eden where god asks "where are you?" and adam explains that he was naked and afraid and hid himself. if adam had answered god's words he would have said something like "i'm here in this tree." the problem seems to arise when christians insist that these words are indeed accurate reflections of their beleif. most people have not made a determined effort to work out their own understanding of the place of the bible within their own faith and so rely on the phrases and explanations that others use. i hope this helps. bill rea (o o) -------------------------------------------------------------------w--u--w--- | bill rea, computer services centre, | e-mail b.rea@csc.canterbury.ac.nz | | university of canterbury, | or cctr114@csc.canterbury.ac.nz | | christchurch, new zealand | phone (03)-642-331 fax (03)-642-999 | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20655">
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 which brings me around to asking an open question. is the bible a closed book of scripture? is it okay for us to go around saying "god told me this" and "jesus told me that"? wouldn't that imply that god is still pouring out new revelation to us? i know that some people will feel that is okay, and some will not. the concept of a closed canon would certainly cast a shadow on contemporary prophets. on the other hand, an open canon seems to be indicated sometimes. let's get back to basics. canon (from the latin) means a rule. if we say that a rule is open then its a rule made to be broken. there is an issue also of measurement against a rule. thus the words that are spoken need to be compared against the rule/canon but not added to the canon. is new revelation necessary? topical, current, personal revelation i'd say is necessary. new revelation for all people for all times is not necessary as we have that in scripture. you also seem to confuse canon with scripture. scripture may speak of itself being open - ie god speaking today. it would speak that it is closed in the sense that the canon is unchangeable. (though the concept of canon is later historically.) also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture. is it right to call that prophecy? misleading? wouldn't that be more having to do with knowledge? i know, the gift of knowledge may not be as exciting to talk about, but shouldn't we call a horse a horse? i agree with the problem of confusion. if prophecy is meant to encourage, exhort or correct then is an overlap with scripture. if prophecy is meant to bring a `word' of the form "the man you live with is not your husband" then that is knowledge. yet the exact words their are scripture. i would expect the difference to be the motive and means for delivery. the reading of scripture itself can be a powerful force. david morgan| university of technology sydney | morgan@socs.uts.edu.au _--_|\ | po box 123 broadway nsw 2007 | ph: + 61 2 330 1864 / \ | 15-73 broadway sydney | fax: +61 2 330 1807 \_.--._/ "i paid good money to get my opinions; you get them for free" v 
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 coming from a long line of "hot tempered" people, i know temper when i see it. one of the tell tale signs/fruits that give non-christians away - is when their net replies are acrid, angry and sarcastic. we in the net village do have a laugh or two when professed, born again christians verbally attack people who might otherwise have been won to christianity and had originally joined the discussions because they were "spiritually hungry." instead of answering questions with sweetness and sincerity, these chrisitan net-warriors, "flame" the queries. you don't need any enemies. you already do yourselves the greatest harm. again i say, foolish, foolish, foolish. 
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 there is no way out of the loop. oh contrer mon captitan! there is a way. certainly it is not by human reason. certainly it is not by human experience. (and yet it is both!) to paraphrase sartre, the particular is absurd unless it has an infinite reference point. it is only because of god's own revelation that we can be absolute about a thing. your logic comes to fruition in relativism. "at the core of all well-founded belief, lies belief that is unfounded." -- ludwig wittgenstein ah, now it is clear. ludwig was a desciple of russell. ludwig's fame is often explained by the fact that he spawned not one but two significant movements in contemporary philosophy. both revolve around tractatus logico-philosphicus ('21) and philosophical investigation ('53). many of witt's comments and implicit conclusions suggest ways of going beyond the explicit critique of language he offers. according to some of the implicit suggestions of witt's thought, ordinary language is an invaluable resource, offering a necessary framework for the conduct of daily life. however, though its formal features remain the same, its content does not and it is always capable of being transcended as our experience changes and our understanding is deepened, giving us a clearer picture of what we are and what we wish to say. on witt's own account, there is a dynamic fluidity of language. it is for this reason that any critique of language must move from talking about the limits of language to talking about its boundaries, where a boundary is understood not as a wall but a threshold. vonwrights's comment that witt's "sentences have a content that often lies deep beneath the surface of language." on the surface, witt talks of the insuperable position of ordinary language and the necessity of bringing ourselves to accept it without question. at the same time, we are faced with witt's own creative uses of language and his concern for bringing about changes in our traditional modes of understanding. philosophy, then, through more perspicacious speech, seeks to effect this unity rather than assuming that it is already functioning. yes? the most brilliant of scientists are unable to offer a foundation for human speech so long as they reject christianity! in his tractatus we have the well nigh perfect exhibition of the nature of the impasse of the scientific ideal of exhaustive logical analysis of reality by man. perfect language does not exist for fallen man, therefore we must get on about our buisness of relating truth via ordinary language. this is why john's gospel is so dear to most christians. it is so simple in it conveyance of the revealation of god, yet so full of unlieing depth of understanding. he viewed christ from the ot concept of "as a man thinketh, so he is." john looked at the outward as only an indicator of what was inside, that is the consciousness of christ. and so must we. words are only vehicals of truth. he is truth. the scriptures are plain in their expounding that there is a truth and that it is knowable. there are absolutes, and they too are knowable. however, they are only knowable when he reveals them to the individual. there is, and we shouldn't shy from this, a mysticism to christianity. paul in rom 8 says there are 3 men in the world. there is the one who does not have the spirit and therefore can not know the things of the spirit (the spirit of truth) and there is the one who has the spirit and has the capacity to know of the truth, but there is the third. the one who not only has the spirit, but that the spirit has him! who can know the deep things of god and reveal them to us other than the spirit. and it is only the deep things of god that are absolute and true. there is such a thing as true truth and it is real, it can be experienced and it is verifiable. i disagree with dr nancy's sweetie's conclusion because if it is taken to fruition it leads to relativism which leads to dispair. "i would know the words which he would answer me, and understand what he would say unto me." job 23ff --rex suggested, easy reading about epistimology: "he is there and he is not silent" by francis schaeffer. 
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 how much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver! proverbs 16:16 
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 i disagree with your claim that jews were not evangelistic (except in the narrow sense of the word). jewish proselytism was widespread. there are numerous accounts of jewish proselytism, both in the new testament and in roman and greek documents of the day. i am not so sure of jewish proselytism then, but i would like to relate an account of a recent dinner i had with jews a few months ago. the dinner was instigated by the aunt of the hostess, whom i had met while visiting my wife in galveston last october. the dear old aunt (now deceased) was very proud of her jewish heritage, although not especially devout. her parents were both murdered in nazi concentration camps in austria during wwii because they were jewish. while conversing with her about politics, world affairs and religion, she remarked that it would be a good idea for me to visit her niece on my return to atlanta. within two days of returning to atlanta, her niece called to invite me over for dinner with her husband. i went, not knowing really what to expect, other than stimulating conversation and fellowship. what i got, however, was rather unexpected. the thrust of the evening's discussion was to condemn the reagan-bush policies prohibiting abortion counseling in federally funded family planning clinics, prohibiting the sterilization of minorities on welfare here and in puerto rico, on the ban on fetal tissue research, and against the mexico city policy, "which denies u.s. foreign aid to programs overseas that promote abortion." the crux of their position was to place the blame for the problems of "overpopulation," rampant domestic crime, african starvation, unwed mothers, etc., on christianity, rather on the fall of adam. now, this is not what i had to come to talk about. but every time i tried to bring up the subject of judaism, they would condemn jews for jesus and admonish me against converting to judaism, "because it involves too much study and effort." and i did not even raise the prospect, nor try to convert them to the truth of christ! there was certainly no jewish proselytism going on there. and again, last november i toured a "traditional" jewish synagogue and was subjected to a 30-minute harangue against jesus and christianity in general. i realize that these are two isolated incidents, and that the best supervisor i ever had at work is jewish, but from my experience, the modern jew is not known for his proselytism. no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra; no he venido a traer la paz, sino la guerra (mateo 10:34, vulgata latina) 
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 on the question, "does god hear the prayers of sinners?" we need to if we say that he never hears the prayers of any who have sinned, we make pointless all prayers by anyone born less than 19 centuries but if we consider the prayers of the impenitent sinner, of someone who says, "lord, i want you to do this for me, but don't expect me to change my way of life," that is a different matter. even here, i would not venture to say that god never grants such petitions (just as he sends sun and rain on the evil and on the good). however, if someone we know well is praying to god in that spirit, we might have the responsibility to say, "remember, if god's help is real, then so are his commands." james kiefer 
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 at the end of a recent (mon 19 apr 1993) post, alastair thomson offers the following "paraphrase" of john 3:16: "god loved the world so much, that he gave us his son, to die in our place, so that we may have eternal life." the "to die in our place" bothers me, since it inserts into the verse a doctrine not found in the original. moreover, i suspect that the poster intends to affirm, not merely substitution, but forensic (or penal) substitution. i maintain that the scriptures in speaking of the atonement teach a doctrine of substitution, but not one of forensic substitution. those interested in pursuing the matter are invited to send for my essays on genesis, either 4 thru 7 (on this question) or 1 through 7 (with lead-in). the n'th essay can be obtained by sending to listserv@asuacad.bitnet or to listserv@asuvm.inre.asu.edu the get gen0n ruff james kiefer "any theologian worth his salt can put anything he wants to say in the form of a commentary on the book of genesis" -- walter kaufman. 
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 goodness that is within the power of each of us. now, the complication is that one of my best friends has become very fundamentalist. that would normally be a non-issue with me, but he hello. firstly, what do you exactly mean by "fundamentalist"? i will for the time being assume that what you mean is that your friend believes that the bible is god's word to mankind? i suspect that what happened to him is what he'll call being "born again"? anyway, was that recent? if the answer is "yes" to all the questions above, it is quite understandable. however, imo, i'ld rather give advice to your friend! i think i've been through something similar to him, and one thing i can say is that the basic problem is that each of you are now trying to communicate from different worldviews. why he talks about those things is because they are now "obvious" to him. what is "obvious" to him is not obvious to you. secondly, why he may be very persuasive is because from his point of view, he has been on "both sides of the fence". this i mean that before he turned "fundamentalist", you two are agreeable because both of you see things from the same side. if suddenly, as if a new world of reality has suddenly opened up to him, it is like the discovery of let's say a new continent, or a new planet. to him, he's got to tell you because he has seen something much more wonderful than where he was, and what he thinks is much better than where you are now. you have got to realise that from his point of view, he means well to you, eventhough he may end up offending you. to him, it is worth that risk. nevertheless, it is really up to him to respect where you stand and listen to you as well. at this moment, it may be difficult because he is either very excited or feel it is too urgent to keep quiet about, however, he may not realise that he's really putting you off. the bible that it is so.' so my question is, how can i convince him that this is a subject better left undiscussed, so we can preserve what is (in all areas other than religious beliefs) a great friendship? how do i convince him that i am 'beyond saving' so he won't try? thanks for any advice. so far, i've only been trying to explain things from his side. however, i do understand how you feel too, because i wasn't a christian for a good part of my life as well. i was quite turned off by christians or "fundamentalists" who were really all out and enthusiastic about their faith. they really scared me, to tell you the truth. unfortunately, "religious belief" is a very personal thing, just as your agnosticism is also a very personal thing to you. since the christian belief is inevitably at odds with anything non-christian (religious or otherwise), it will be a touchy matter. like all friendships, it will take both sides to do their part to make it work. in this matter, maybe you can do your part by telling him nicely that you are not able to dig what he's trying to convince you about, that it's beyond you or not your concern "for now". don't tell him it's nonsense, because to him it is reality - and that would be a real insult. he'll also have to be careful not to insult where you stand too. like i said before, i wish i could give your friend some advice too. i'll admit that i did similarly to some of my friends when i became a christian. in some ways, i wish i could have done things a little differently. however, it was difficult then because i was so excited and just blabbered away about what i've found! to me, it was too good not to know. to some, i was crazy, and i didn't really care most of the time what they thought. you will probably think he's crazy too - but god is very real to him, as real as you are to him. keep that in mind. and he thinks he can convince you because since god is so real to him, he doesn't see why god can't be real to you too. i don't know how helpful this is to you. but all the best anyhow - this is quite a challenge for you to face. by the way, personal conviction: nobody is "beyond saving" except the one we call the devil and his hosts. selbyn liew dept. of ee engineering, university of melbourne, victoria 3052, australia email: sliew@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au ph: +61-3-3447976 fax: +61-3-3446678 
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 [in looking through my files this weekend, i ran across some lyrics from various rock groups that have content. here are two from black sabbath's "master of reality". i'll say this much for the music of the '60's and early '70's, at least they asked questions of significance. jethro tull is another to asked and wrote about things that caused one to wonder. --rex] it is interesting that you posted those lyrics, because just the other day i was thinking of doing the same. i like those lyrics, since whenever i am approached by judgemental, pharisitical, evangelical fundamentalists who throw the bible at me because i have long hair, wear a black leather jacket, and listen to black sabbath, i have something to throw back. usually their chins drop and they come up speechless over those not very satanic lyrics. it just goes to show that there are more important evils in the world to battle than rock lyrics........... steven c. salaris we're...a lot more dangerous than 2 live crew salaris@carcs1.wustl.edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas. we have a philosophy. geoff tate -- queensryche 
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 hooray ! i always suspected that i was human too :-) it is the desire to be like christ that often causes christians to be very critical of themselves and other christians. we are supposed to grow, mature, endeavour to be christ-like but we are far far far from perfect. build up the body of christ, don't tear it down, and that includes yourself. jesus loves me just the way i am today, tomorrow and always (thank god ! :-). -sheila patterson 
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 are 'moody monthly' and 'moody' the same magazine (name change in recent years)? if not: could someone post the address to 'moody monthly'? :)avid __________________ ___________________________________________________ | david a. sjoen |"my sheep hear my voice, and i know them, and they | | gulaksveien 4 | follow me; and i give them life eternal; and they | | n-4017 stavanger | shall never perish, and no one shall seize them | | norway | out of my hand." john 10:27-29 | e-mail: david-s@hsr.no (rogaland university centre, norway) 
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 are all truths also absolutes? is all of scripture truths (and therefore absolutes)? the answer to both questions is yes. an absolute is something that is constant across time, culture, situations, etc. true in every instance possible. do you agree with this definition? ... yes, i do agree with your definition. ... [example of women covering their heads and not speaking] hold it. i said that all of scripture is true. however, discerning exactly what jesus, paul and company were trying to say is not always so easy. i don't believe that paul was trying to say that all women should behave that way. rather, he was trying to say that under the circumstances at the time, the women he was speaking to would best avoid volubility and cover their heads. this has to do with maintaining a proper witness toward others. remember that any number of relativistic statements can be derived from absolutes. for instance, it is absolutely right for christians to strive for peace. however, this does not rule out trying to maintain world peace by resorting to violence on occasion. (yes, my opinion.) i agree that there is truth in scripture. there are principles to be learned from it. claiming that that truth is absolute, though, seems to imply a literal reading of the bible. if it were absolute truth (constant across time, culture, etc.) then no interpretation would be it may be that the lessons gleaned from various passages are different from person to person. to me, that doesn't mean that one person is right and the other is wrong. i believe that god transcends our simple minds, and that scripture may very well have been crafted with exactly this intent. god knows me, and knows that my needs are different from yours or anyone else's. by claiming that scripture is absolute, then at least one person in every disputed interpretation must be wrong. i just don't believe that god is that rigid. evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth. (and there are plenty of other examples.) can you reconcile this? sure. the bible preaches absolute truths. however, exactly what those truths are is sometimes a matter of confusion. as i said, the bible does preach absolute truths. sometimes those fundamental principles are crystal clear (at least to evangelicals). this is where the arrogance comes in to play. since these principles are crystal clear to evangelicals, maybe the rest of us should just take their word for it? maybe it isn't at all crystal clear to *me* that their fundamental principles are either fundamental *or* principles. i think we've established that figuring out biblical truth is a matter of human interpretation and therefore error-prone. yet you can still claim that some of them may be crystal clear? maybe to a certain segment of christianity, but to all. it's very difficult to see how you can claim something which is based on your own *interpretation* is absolute. god revealed his truths to the world, through his word. it is utterly unavoidable, however, that some people whill come up with alternate interpretations. practically anything can be misinterpreted, especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong. care to deny that? not at all. i think it supports my position much more effectively than yours. :-) so, i think that your position is: the bible is absolute truth, but as we are prone to error in our interpretation, we cannot reliably determine if we have figured out what that truth is. did i get that right? what's the point of spending all this time claiming and defending absolute truth, when we can never know what those truths are, and we can never (or at least shouldn't) act upon them? what practical difference can this make? carol alvin caralv@auto-trol.com 
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 = this is not true. science is a collection of models telling us "how", = not why, something happens. i cannot see any good reason why the "why" = questions would be bound only to natural things, assuming that the = supernatural domain exists. if supernatural beings exist, it is = as appropriate to ask why they do so as it is to ask why we exist. i beg to disagree with the assertion that science is a collection of models. scientific models are a game to play, and are only as good as the assumptions and measurements (if any) that go into them. as an example, i remember when nuclear winter was the big hype in atmospheric science. it wasn't long after sagan's admonitions that one of our boys was adding another level of reality into his model of the nuclear winter scenario at erl in boulder. he decided to assume that the atmosphere is more like a two-dimensional thing, than a one- dimensional thing. he also assumed that it rained and that the winds blow in the real atmosphere. on returning to georgia tech, he showed a transparency of atmospheric cooling rates according to the year they were generated by the models. there was an unmistakable correlation between the age (meaning simplicity of assumptions; i.e., remoteness from reality) of each model and the degree of cooling. whereas sagan's model showed an approximate 40-degree cooling episode, the next model in sophistication showed about half that, and so on until we got to our boy's model, which showed a 1-2 degree drop if the war happened in the winter and less than a 10 degree drop if it happened in the summer. he predicted that when we would include the presence of oceans, chemistry, the biosphere, and other indicators of reality in the models, we would probably see even less cooling. thus nuclear winter was reduced to even less than a nuclear autumn, one might say, to a nuclear fizzle. to quote from h.s. yoder, the postulated models have become accepted as the reality instead of the lattice of assumptions they are. authoritarianism dominates the field, and a very critical analysis of each argument is to be encouraged.... skepticism of the model approach to earth problems is warranted because many key parameters have not been included. this statement surely applies equally well to cosmogony. only when convincing observational evidence substantiates the modeled results may one suggest that the model may describe the reality. just thought i'd clear that up before things really got out of hand. no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra; no he venido a traer la paz, sino la guerra (mateo 10:34, vulgata latina) 
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 hello all. we are doing a bible study (at my college) on revelations. we have been doing pretty good as far as getting some sort of reasonable interpretation. we are now on chapters 17 and 18 which talk about the woman on the beast and the fall of babylon. i believe the beast is the antichrist (some may differ but it seems obvious) and the woman represents babylon which stands for rome or the roman catholic church. what are some views on this interpretation? is the falling babylon in chapter 18 the same babylon in as in chapter 17? the catholic church? hate to step on toes. jimmy buddenberg internet: jbuddenberg@vax.cns.muskingum.edu muskingum college [reading this imagery as the roman catholic church was certainly common in earlier protestant writers. a lot of us find that frankly embarassing now, though some of our readers will certainly advocate such a position. the problem is that the description makes it look a lot like a political entity. it's associated with kings, controls world commerce, is seated on seven mountains (17:9 -- recall that rome is traditionally regarded as built on seven hills). if it's a church, then it's not the current roman catholic church, but a church that has been taken over by the anti-christ and merged with the state, turning into something rather different than it is now. presumably in such a scenario the true catholics are among those who are persecuted. given the overall impression that satan is pretending to be an angel of light, and the true church is a persecuted remnant, i think the most consistent playing out of the image would be that the anti-christ would be presiding over a church that claims to be the heir of both the protestant and catholic traditions, but that the true spiritual descendants of both peter and the reformers are equally being persecuted. --clh] 
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 literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view, since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such. this is something i've always found confusing. if all your nerve endings die with your physical body, why would flame hurt you? how can one "wail and gnash teeth" with no lungs and no teeth? one can feel physical pain by having a body, which, if you know the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, is what people will have after the great judgement. "we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come." - nicene-constantinopolitan creed. you will have both body and soul in hell - eventually. andy byler 
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 in article <apr.16.23.17.40.1993.1861@geneva.rutgers.edu<, mussack@austin.ibm.com writes... << < for example: why does the universe exist at all? <whether there is a "why" or not we have to find it. this is pascal's(?) wager. <if there is no why and we spend our lives searching, then we have merely <wasted our lives, which were meaningless anyway. if there is a why and we i find this view of christianity to be quite disheartening and sad. the idea that life only has meaning or importance if there is a creator does not seem like much of a basis for belief. please forgive all the inclusions. i suppose they are neccessary to follow the argument. my point is that "if life has meaning or importance then we should try to find that meaning or importance" which is almost a tautology. (i hope i'm not being too patronizing.) one term for that meaning is "creator", though that is not obvious from my above argument. and the logic is also appalling: "god must exist because i want him to." (it's more like "i think, therefore i am, therefore god is.") i have heard this line of "reasoning" before and wonder how prevalent it is. certainly in modern society many people are convinced life is hopeless (or so the pollsters and newscasts state), but i don't see where this is a good reason to become religious. if you want 'meaning' why not just join a cult, such as in waco? the leaders will give you the security blanket you desire. unfortunately the term "religious" is ambiguous to me in this context. i could say that searching for meaning in life is by definition being religious. i could say cult followers by definition have given up on the search. if you want "meaning" why not search for the truth? so far, my understanding of christianity is congruent with my understanding of truth. there have been many before me who have come to conclusions that are worded in ways that make sense to me. by no means does that imply that i understand everything. chris mussack 
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 i think you are vastly oversimplifying things. we know that early christians suffered totures because of their witness to christ. for example: [ act 5:40 - 41 ] it appears that the jewish rulers of that time had a particular aversion to even hearing jesus's name. finally, the first apostle's death, james of zebedee was certainly not by rome's hand any more than the first martyr stephen. the problem was that if one believed in the resurrection, then one must believe in jesus as truly being the son of god and what he stood for and preached during his ministry on earth. that would have been extremely difficult for some people, especially those that had plotted to kill him. the basic problem with your argument is your total and complete reliance on the biblical text. luke's account is highly suspect (i would refer you to the hermeneia commentary on acts). moreover luke's account is written at least 90 years after the fact. in the meantime everyone he mentions has died and attempts to find actual written sources behind the text have come up with only the we section of the later portion of acts as firmly established. moreover, pauls account of some of the events in acts (as recorded in galatians) fail to establish the acts accounts. what we need, therefore, is a reliable text, critically appreciated, which documents the death of christians for belief in the resurrection. i would suggest you look at some greek and roman historians. i think you will be 
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 i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved. ... didn't paul write that if the resurrection is not true, we are the biggest fools of all? however, whether you believe in christ or not, his teachings (e.g. love your brotherman as yourself), even if only followed at a secular level, could do a great deal to alleviate some of the problems we see today in the world. even when i was a rabid atheist i couldn't deny that. jeff johnson jcj@tellabs.com we also cannot fail to note the intense suffering a devastation which has been wrecked on our world because of christians -- who were certain they were following christ. from captialist who have polluted the enviorment in strict obedience to the gensis command to subdue the earth, to nazi's who have "justly" punished the jews for the killing christ (as well as the other progroms), the innocent women who were burned alive in accordance with "you shall not allow a witch to live", the moslems who were killed in the crusades, the god-fearing men destroyed by the inquistion. the religious wars in spain, france, england, etc. christianity has undoubtedly caused the most suffering and needless loss of life by individuals whose certainity that they were following the instructions therein, was unquestionable. there is much to grieve. 
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 of course they knew where it was. don't forget that jesus was seen by both the jews and the romans as a troublemaker. pilate was no fool and didn't need the additional headaches of some fishermen stealing jesus' body to make it appear he had arisen. since jesus was buried in the grave of a man well know to the sanhedrin, to say that they didn't know where he was buried begs the question. here again, the problem with most of the individuals posting here, you take the biblical account as though it were some sort of historical recounting in the modern sense. i would refer you to john dominic crossans book _the cross that spoke_ (pub. harper and row, 1988). the earliest texts which we have make no reference to an empty tomb. nor is an empty tomb necessary for a claim of resurrection. modern evangelicals/fundamentalists have completely missed what the point of resurrection is -- here the work of george nickelsburg's work _resurrection, immortality, and eternal life in intertestamental judaism_ (publ cambridge, havard univ. press, 1972) is most helpful. look at rom 1:1-3. paul here has no need of an empty tomb. additionally in 1 cor 15, here again there is no mention of an empty tomb. he was raised (note the passive), he appeared, no ascension either. resurrection could be accomplished without ever disturbing the bones in the grave. the whole idea of an empty tomb isn't broached in any of our texts until well after the fall of jerusalem. by that time, the idea of coming up with a body would have been ludicrious. moreover mack has argued (convicingly, i think) that the empty tomb story first appears in mark (we have no texts before this which mention the tomb). now, you say that you think that the disciples stole the body. but think on this a moment. would you die to maintain something you knew to be a deliberate lie!? if not, then why do you think the disciples would!? now, i'm not talking about dying for something you firmly believe to be the truth, but unbeknown to you, it is a lie. many have done this. no, i'm talking about dying, by beheading, stoning, crucifixion, etc., for something you know to be a lie! thus, you position with regards to the disciples stealing the body seems rather lightweight to me. as for graverobbers, why risk the severe penalties for grave robbing over the body of jesus? he wasn't buried with great riches. so, again, this is an argument that can be discounted. that leaves you back on square one. what happened to the body!? [again, let me comment that the most plausible non-christian scenario, and the one typically suggested by sceptics who are knowledgeable about the nt, is that the resurrection was a subjective event, and the empty tomb stories are a result of accounts growing in the telling. --clh] you are quite right here. even the idea of a subjective mystical event as the foundation of the resurrection narratives is currently becoming more untenable. see b. mack _a myth of innocence_. 
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 i think it's really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man, even if he did claim to be the son of god, and/or a prophet. it is just as christ said about his return: "some will say, 'he is in the desert.' or some will say, 'he is in the wilderness.' but do not believe them. for as lightning flashes east to west so shall the coming of the son of man be." { my paraphrase - i think the verse is somewhere in john } sig file broken.... please try later... 
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 i dreamed that the great judgment morning had dawned, and the trumpet had blown. i dreamed that the sinners had gathered for judgment before the white throne. oh what weeping and wailing as the lost were told of their fate. they cried for the rock and the mountains. they prayed, but their prayers were too late. the soul that had put off salvation, "not tonight i'll get saved by and by. no time now to think of ....... religion," alas, he had found time to die. and i saw a great white throne. if i believed in the god of the bible i would be very fearful of making this statement. doesn't it say those who judge will be judged by the same measure? now, some have protest by saying that the fear of hell is not good for motivation, yet jesus thought it was. paul thought it was. paul said, "knowing therefore, the terror of the lord, we persuade men." a god who must motivate through fear is not a god worthy of worship. if the god jesus spoke of did indeed exist he would not need hell to convince people to worship him. today, too much of our evangelism is nothing but soft soap and some of it is nothing but evangelical salesmanship. we don't tell people anymore, that there's such a thing as sin or that there's such a place as hell. it was the myth of hell that made me finally realize that the whole thing was untrue. if it hadn't been for hell i would still be a believer today. the myth of hell made me realize that if there was a god that he was not the all knowing and all good god he claimed to be. why should i take such a being at his word, even if there was evidence for his existance? ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 for src in most languages, the feast of the resurrection of our lord is known as the pasch, or pasque, or some variation thereof, a word which comes from the hebrew pesach, meaning "passover." in english, german, and a few related languages, however, it is known as easter, or some variation thereof, and questions have been asked about the origin of this term. one explanation is that given by the venerable bede in his de ratione temporum 1:5, where he derives the word from the name of an anglo-saxon goddess of spring called eastre. bede is a great scholar, and it is natural to take his word for it. but he lived 673-735, and augustine began preaching in kent in 597. the use of the word easter to describe the feast would have been well established before the birth of bede and probably before the birth of anyone he might have discussed the subject with. it seems likely that his derivation is just a guess, based on his awareness that there had been an anglo-saxon goddess of spring bearing that name, and the resemblance of the words. thus, if the said resemblance (surely it is not surprising that a personification of spring should have a name similar to the word for dawn) is not in istelf convincing, the testimony (or rather the conjecture) by bede does not make it more so. assuming that bede was right, that would not justify saying that the christian celebration (which, after all, had been going on for some centuries before the name easter was applied to it) has pagan roots. it would simply mean that the anglo-saxons, upon becoming christians and beginning to celebrate the resurrection by a festival every spring, called it by the name that to them meant simply "spring festival." however, bede's is not the only theory that has been proposed. j knoblech, in "die sprach," zeitschrift fuer sprachwissenschaft 5 (vienna, 1959) 27-45, offers the following derivation: among latin-speaking christians, the week beginning with the feast of the resurrection was known as "hebdomada alba" (white week), since the newly-baptized christians were accustomed to wear their white baptismal robes throughout that week. sometimes the week was referred to simply as "albae." translaters rendering this into german mistook it for the plural of "alba," meaning "dawn." they accordingly rendered it as eostarum, which is old high german for "dawn." this gave rise to the form easter in english. james kiefer [no, i'm not interested in restarting discussions of the propriety of celebrating easter. however this seems like it contains enough interesting information that people might like to see it. --clh] 
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 hi everyone, i'm a commited christian that is battling with a problem. i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' you fools, do you still think that just believing is enough?' now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god, according to romans that person is still saved by there faith. but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him (i.e. doesn't know him - condemned) so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn't make any attempt to live by the bible. now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do) as taught in romans, but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being 'spat-out' can anyone help me, this really bothers me. in christ, | dallas cowboys - world champions 1992-93 | 
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 rob butera asks about a book called the lost years of jesus, by elizabeth clare prophet. i do not know the book. however, miss prophet is the leader of a group (the church universal and triumphant) derived from the i am group founded by a mr. ballard who began his mission in the 1930's (i am writing this from memory and may not have all the details straight -- for an old account, check your library for a bnook by marcus bach) after an eighteenth-century frenchman appeared, tapped him on the shoulder, and offered him a cup of "cosmic essence." a major tenet of the movement is that there is a monastery in the mountains of tibet from which a monk descends to the lower altitudes every few centuries to preach, and that all major religions have been founded by monks from this monastery. typically, the ballard family and their successors, the prophet family (related by marriage, if i remember aright), base almost all their teachings on messages they have allegedly received by telepathy from tibet. i should be surprised if the book you mention has any scholarly basis. james kiefer 
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 if you know the latin, one really beautiful way to hear the passion is its being chanted by three deacons: the narrator chants in the middle baritone range, jesus chants in the bass, and others directly quoted are handled by a high tenor. this is done in english (same music as the traditional latin) in many anglican parishes. i should expect that many rcc parishes would do likewise. the st matthew passion and st john passion of j s bach are direct offshoots of this tradition james kiefer 
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 according to mdbs@ms.uky.edu, muslims tithe 1/6 of their income. perhaps there are some offshoots of islam that impose this on their followers. but the standard tithe is 1/40 of one's net worth, once a year. the same writer also objects to the bible for teaching that "woman was created after man, to be his helper" etc. this is presumably a reference to genesis 2. suppose that that chapter had been written with the sexes reversed. we have god creating woman, and then saying, "it is not good that woman should be alone. i will make a help meet for her." feminists would be outraged. the clear implication would be that god had started at the bottom and worked up, making first the plants, then the fish and birds, then the beasts, then woman, and finally his masterpiece, the male chauvinist pig. the statement that woman is not capable of functioning by herself, that she needs a man to open doors for her, would have been seen as a particularly gratuitous insult. the fact that the creation of woman from the dust of the ground was given only briefly and in general, while the creation of the man was given in six times the number of words, would have been cited as evidence of the author's estimate of the relative importance of the sexes. the verdict would have been unequivocal. "no self-respecting woman can accept this book as a moral guide, or as anything but sexist trash!" i suggest that moses, fearing this reaction, altered his original draft and described the creation with adam first and then eve, so as to appease miriam and other radical feminists of the day. for some reason, however, it did not work. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20705">
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 : it is a dead and useless faith which has no action behind it. actions : prove our faith and show the genuineness of it. a good example of this is abraham (referred to in the james passage). hebrews says that abraham was justified by faith -- but his faith was demonstrated through his works (i.e., he obeyed what god told him to do). reading abraham's ``biography'' in genesis is very instructive. he was a man beset by *lack* of faith a lot of the time (e.g. lying about sarah being his wife on 2 occasions; trying to fulfil god's promise on god's behalf by copulating with hagar). . . yet it seems that god didn't evaluate him on the basis of individual incidents. abraham is listed as one of the ``heroes of faith'' in hebrews 11. i.e., when it really came to the crunch, god declared abraham as a man of faith. he believed god's promises. this gives us confidence. although real faith demonstrates itself through works, god is not going to judge us according to our success/failure in performing works. ``not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the holy spirit.'' (titus 3.5) amazing grace! hallelujah! michael davis (cs89mcd@brunel.ac.uk) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20710">
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 and the lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that god will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. iitimothy 2:24-26 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20714">
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 on 23-apr-93 in serbian genocide work of god? are the governments of the united states and europe not moving to end the ethnic cleansing by the serbs because the targets are bingo - that and there's no oil there. on 23-apr-93 in serbian genocide work of god? are the serbs doing the work of god? hmm... if this is the "work of god" then i'm doubly glad that i don't worship him. david hunt - graduate slave | my mind is my own. | towards both a mechanical engineering | so are my ideas & opinions. | palestinian and carnegie mellon university | <<<use golden rule v2.0>>> | jewish homeland! ====t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d=========t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d===== email: bluelobster+@cmu.edu working towards my "piled higher and deeper" it will be a great day when scientists and engineers have all the r&d money they need and religions have to beg for money to pay the priest. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20715">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20715" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 (dean and i write lots and lots about absolute truth and arrogance.) i strongly suspect that we are reaching an impasse here, which is why i deign from commenting much further. i agree that we'll probably never agree, and i'm starting to feel frustrated, and i'm tired of having my conversations with my husband dominated by this topic (just kidding, :-)). i do have to say, though, that participating in this discussion has been a good learning experience for me. my views on this topic have evolved and clarified through this, and i suspect that we may not disagree as much as we think. i admit that i'm strongly prejudiced against evangelical christianity, and i may not always be rational in my reactions to it. i grew up in ec, and went to an ec college. it was definitely the wrong place for me, and i react strongly to any implication that ec or conservative christianity has any sort of stronghold on true christianity. i shudder when i remember the condescending attitude i had about other christians who didn't adhere to the ec model. i have come to see that my real objection to this whole notion of absolute truth is the actions i have seen it lead to. i have had some very bad experiences with evangelical christians claiming to know the truth, and judging me or others based on their belief that they have the answers. knowing the truth doesn't seem to leave a whole lot of room for others' opinions. i can accept your belief in absolute truth as long as you* don't try to use that belief to try to force others to comply with it, and you are very careful that you don't hurt others with it. love your neighbor seems to go totally out the window when one knows the truth and believes that everyone should be living by that truth. other people have convictions about the truth every bit as strong and sincere as yours, based on careful searching, prayer, and their relationship with god. don't dismiss them because god didn't lead them to the same conclusions as yours. *this is not directed personally at you, dean. carol alvin caralv@auto-trol.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20716">
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 i must have missed the postings about waco, david koresh, and the second coming. how does one tell if a second coming is the real thing, unless the person claiming to be it is obviously insane? one rule of thumb is that if a person is making the claim, they are wrong. i was just reading john 14 this morning (i think that is the right chapter, anyway it is close and i don't have a bible at work to check with.) and in it jesus is talking to his disciples about his impending death and he says that he will be going away and then later he will be with them. he said something along the lines of "i will be in you and you will be in me." (again i cannot provide the exact quote or citation.) anyway, my understanding of this is that the second coming will not be an outward event. it is an inward event, christ will come to live in our hearts and we will live in him. if you look for a person you will be deceived. it seems to me that the jews had been looking for a messiah that would be a political or military leader and so didn't recognize jesus when he came. jesus tried to show that his kingdom was not of this earth. a lot of what i have seen written about the second coming seems to based on an expectation of christ coming back and finally taking over the world and running it the way it should be. it sounds a lot like what the jews were looking for. the first coming wasn't like that and i see no reason for the second coming to be like that either. oh and by the way, i don't expect it to happen once. there is no one second coming, there are a lot of little ones. every time christ comes into someones heart, christ has come again. | william taber | will_taber@dg.com | any opinions expressed | | data general corp. | will@futon.webo.dg.com | are mine alone and may | | westboro, mass. 01580 | | change without notice. | | when all your dreams are laid to rest, you can get what's second best, | | but it's hard to get enough. david wilcox | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20717">
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 the people who post to this particular newsgroup are either too cowardly, too arrogant, or too apathetic to discuss this issue since i have yet to see any discussion grace my computer screen. while it holds particular interest to the african-american community, everyone has something to gain from discussing it. as any knowledgable person should know, christianity has been used in this country to tighten the spiritual, emotional, & mental hold slavery placed on the minds, souls & hearts of african-americans. this was most effectively done by the display of white icons of jesus in slave churches to encourage the godly superiority of slaveowners. it wasn't enough that the slaveowner was your provider, but he was also your god, to be looked upon with unconditional love & loyalty and to be worshipped with great pride. but how culturally & biblically accurate are these icons? pictures & statues of a black jesus have been found in european countries, as that of a black madonna. but what about biblical physical descriptions of jesus, his hair being compared to that of wool, his feet to that of brass? and think about the area of the world where all biblical actions took place. i welcome all intelligent commentary on this important topic; flamers need not reply. p.s. i expect at least this type of response: "it doesn't matter what color his skin was; his actions & what he did for mankind are what counts." this is true; i am not questioning this. but he walked the earth for 3 decades as a human; this part of his existence intrigues me. and as for saying that "it doesn't matter..." to a member of a physically emancipated people who is still struggling for mental emancipation, believe me: it [the general attack on the members of this group seems unjustified. there has been discussion of this issue in the past. we can't discuss everything at once, so the fact that some specific thing hasn't been discussed recently shouldn't be taken as a sign of general cowardice, arrogance or apathy. in past discussions no one has been outraged by suggestions that jesus could be black (and it has been suggested by a few scholars), but the concensus is that he was most likely semitic. as you probably know, there is a tradition that portrayals of jesus in art tends to show him as one of the people. thus you wouldn't be surprised to find african art showing him as black, and oriental art showing him as oriental. there are good reasons relating to christian devotion to think of him in such a way. it's also good now and then to have that image challenged, and to think of jesus as being a member of xxx, where xxx is the group you least respect. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20720">
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 i've heard it said that the accounts we have of christs life and ministry in the gospels were actually written many years after the event. (about 40 years or so). is this correct?? if so, why the big time delay?? i know all scripture is inspired of god, so the time of writing is i suppose un-important, but i still can't help be curious! ivan thomas barr contact me at u9126619@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk [the gospels aren't dated, so we can only guess. luke's prolog is about the only thing we have from the author describing his process. the prolog sounds like luke is from the next generation, and had to do some investigating. there are traditions passed down verbally that say a few things about the composition of the gospels. there are debates about how reliable these traditions are. they certainly don't have the status of scripture, yet scholars tend to take some of them seriously. one suggests that mark was based on peter's sermons, and was written to preserve them when peter had died or way about to die. one tradition about matthew suggests that a collection of jesus words may have been made earlier than the current gospels. in the ancient world, it was much more common to rely on verbal transmission of information. i think many people would have preferred to hear about jesus directly from someone who had known him, and maybe even from someone who studied directly under such a person, rather than from a book. thus i suspect that the gospels are largely from a period when these people were beginning to die. scholars generally do think there was some written material earlier, which was probably used as sources for the existing gospels. establishing the dates is a complex and technical business. i have to confess that i'm not sure how much reliance i'd put on the methods used. but it's common to think that mark was written first, around 64 ad., and that all of the gospels were written by the end of the century. a few people vary this by a decade or so one way or the --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20721">
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 this is to let you know that the fourth issue of the copt-net newsletter has been issued. the highlights of this issue include: 1. easter greating: christ is risen; truly he is risen! 2. the holy family in egypt (part 1) 3. anba abraam, the friend of the poor (part 4) 4. a review of the coptic encyclopedia 5. a new dictionary of the coptic language this newsletter has been prepared by members of copt-net, a forum where news, activities, and services of the coptic orthodox churches and coptic communities outside egypt are coordinated and exchanged. if you want your name to be included in the mailing list, or have any questions please contact nabil ayoub at <ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu>. copt-net editorial board 
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 another issue of importance. was the crucification the will of god or a tragic mistake. i believe it was a tragic mistake. god's will can never be accomplished through the disbelief of man. i finished reading a very good book, "the will of god", weatherhead. this was very helpful to me in applying thought to the subject of the will of god. weatherhead broke the will of god into three distinct parts; intentional will, circumstancial will, and ultimate will. he (weatherhead) also refuted the last statement (above) by michael parkin above quite nicely. summarizing; _despite_ the failures of humankind, god's ultimate will is never to be defeated. god's intentions may be interfered with, even temporarily defeated by the will of humankind, brought down by circumstance. his ultimate will (the reconcilication of all humankind) will never be stopped. time after time, weatherhead used the cross as the best description of this process at work. his points, paraphrased, were 1) god's intentional will was for jesus, the christ, to live out a full life and perform the work of the living god. 2) the failures, sins, and deviousness of humankind frustrated god's intent for his son. 3) despite the circumstance, god's ultimate will was revealed in the cross, as jesus willingly ("not my will, lord, but yours") died for the redemption of all humankind. the cross was utterly triumphant, overcoming even the most cruel of circumstances. this world to build the kingdom of heaven on the earth. he desperately wanted the jewish people to accept him as the messiah. if the crucification was the will of god how could jesus pray that this cup pass from him. was this out of weakness. never. many men and women have given their lives for their country or other noble causes. is jesus less than these. no he is not. he knew the crucification was not the will of god. it was not the intentional will of god. it was the circumstancial will, thus enabling the victory of the ultimate will. god's will was that the jewish people accept jesus as the messiah and that the kingdom of heaven be established on the earth with jesus as it's head. right, intentional will. (just like the jewish people expected). if this had happened 2000 years ago can you imagine what kind of world we would live in today. it would be a very different world. and that is eactly what god wanted. men and women of that age could have been saved by following the living messiah while he was on the earth. jesus could have established a sinless lineage that would have continued his reign after his ascension to the spiritual world to live with god. now the kingdom of heaven on the earth will have to wait for christ's return. but when he returns will he be recognized and will he find faith on this earth. isn't it about time for his return. it's been almost 2000 years. we know neither the time nor the place. he will return as a thief in the night. -legal mumbo jumbo follows- this mail/post only reflects the opinions of the poster (author), and in no manner reflects any corporate policy, statement, opinion, or other expression by network systems corporation. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20723">
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 hi everyone, i'm a commited christian that is battling with a problem. i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' you fools, do you still think that just believing is enough?' some deleted now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do) as taught in romans, but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being 'spat-out' can anyone help me, this really bothers me. dear will, i've never replied on this thing before so i hope it gets thru ok. i had a few thoughts!: "faith on its own, if not accompanied by action is dead" - james 2:17 faith is both belief and action. if i say that i am a great swimmer but i never go swimming, am i really a swimmer? and will people believe that i am? likewise if i say i'm a christian but i never talk to god, am i really a christian? my faith is demonstrated by my action. the fact that we talk to god proves we have faith. satan believes in god but does not follow him! in a similar vein, i have recently been challenged by 1john2:3-6 v3 says "we know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands" i find this verse quite encouraging as it could imply that 'if we have come to know him, then we'll obey his commands' cos he lives within us and we cannot help but obey what he says. i tend to feel that as we daily submit ourself to god he will keep changing us into the likeness of jesus and his fruit and works will be automatically produced in our lives. hope this helps. james holland (rcfec@westminster.ac.uk) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20725">
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 i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist, but definitely do not believe in the christian god. the recent discussion about atheists and hell, combined with a post to another group (to the effect of 'you will all go to hell') has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men. as a catholic, i was told that a jew, buddhist, etc. might go to heaven, but obviously some people do not believe this. even more see atheists and pagans (i assume i would be lumped into this category) to be hellbound. i know you believe only god can judge, and i do not ask you to, just for your opinions. excellent question timothy. i hpoe the answers you get will be satisfactory as we can not understand the mind of god. but to attempt to answer you clearly. god of the bible has given us humans relativly little about how he intends to judge mankind. the first test is those who have beleived that jesus christ is the son of god and that his death and resurrection was sufficent to serve justice for all the acts we commit that are wrong in the eyes of god, the bible calls this sin. for those who die before the end of the world/have already died it is more complicated to explain without lapsing in to cliche. god must judge people on the baasis of their works in this world. however there is no plus and minus system for god. he has declared that he can not tolerate spiritual imperfection, thus he can only based your worthiness to live with him on the wrong in your life. good people, yes even christians are going to constantly sin before god, the christian hoever thanks god that christ has given his life for his sin's penalty. the proscribed punishment for sin is death, just as the proscribed punishment for robbery is time in jail. god then cannot ask for anything but punishement for those sins. he does not want to condem. the bible says in john 3:17, that god did not send his son in to the word to condem it but that through him it might be saved." when i realize that i have sinned, and i do with painful regularity, i must approach god and ask him to not hold thew sin against me, i have that right and privlige only because of christ. as for jews they are promised that they must believe on the messiah who would come, and dis come in jesus of nazereth. muslims, i fear have been given a lie from the fater of lies, satan. they need christ as do us all. for those who don't have that right, in the view of the bible they stand olone in their defense. are you going to hell? i can not answer that for you. i can only say that perhaps it is eaiser to ask and answer how can i not go to hell? that step is much more rewarding. stan toney stoney@oyster.smcm.edu my opinions are my own, you may borrow them p.s. stay in touch and keep asking questions not just to us but to god as well, he listens too. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20730">
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 i am asking you to believe in things not visible. i don't know if this is > believeing blindly or not. i'm not sure how blindness comes into it. i do > not deny reason, indeed i insist upon it, but reason only draws conclusions > from evidence. if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on > the evidence of the five physical senses, then you cut reason off from any > possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere (beyond the > rather provocative, if inconclusive, conclusion that the physical sphere > is not self explanatory). so your are saying to rely on our feelings and experiences (since this is the only other source of information left to us). how can you then convince somebody that your "feelings and experiences" are the correct ones then if you can't show somebody visible and measurable effects? if my experiences say that "there exists no god" and yours says there does, where does that leave us? since we are only going on experiences, then both of us are correct within our own personal furthermore, the trouble with "feelings and experiences" is that they can lead you astray, as the tragic outcome of waco illustrates. i am sure that many of koresh's followers really believed in him but i think that you and i will agree that they were being misled. finally, how on earth do you come to the conclusion that the physical sphere is not self-explanatory when you only rely on the five senses? christians claim that they have received a different kind of evidence, which they call faith, and which is a gift of god. that is, this evidence is the evidence of a thing which chooses to reveal or hide itself. the evidence of the senses cannot tell you is such a ting exists. reasoning on the evidence of the senses won't help either. but christians do reason of the evidence of faith, and do claim that this evidence is wholly consistent with the evidence of the other senses, and indeed, that the evidence of these other senses is part of god's revelation of himself to us. you must be using a definition of "evidence" that i am not familiar with. to me, evidence is something you can show others -unambiguously- that what you are saying is true. however, i agree with you that belief in a diety is a matter of faith. it is not something you can share around - others must experience it independantly. unfortunately, as i have explained above, this puts belief down to a matter of experience. my impression is that christians do not have the monopoly on reason, evidence and faith as far as any of these things can go. in a previous article, phs431d@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au () says: you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything. however, if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone. and since we can only use faith, why is one picture of "god" (e.g. hinduism) any less valid than another (e.g. christianity)? faith, as i have said, is not opposed to reason, it is simply a new source of evidence on which reason may operate. it is clear that human beings have many systems for explaining the evidence of the physical senses, and similarly there are many systems for explaining the evidence provided by faith. religious believers in general, and christians in particular, use reason to help sift through the evidence to come to a clearer understanding of the evidence provided by faith. science claims, with good reason, to be the most valid system for explaining the physical universe, and christianity claims, also with good reason, to be the most valid system, possessed of the best evidence, for explaining gods revelations of himself to man. at the risk of repeating my argument : as i have explained previously, the trouble is that moslems, buddhists, jews, etc will all say that they claim, with good reason, to be a valid system, possessed of the best evidence, for explaining gods revelations to man (for buddhists it should read "for explaining the non-existence of god"). so not only must you "prove" your own case, you have to "disprove" theirs. (alt.messianic is a good place to see people strong in the belief of their own faiths ... and with their own good reasons) if you doubt that christians use reason, read this newsgroup for a while and you will see rational debate aplenty. i know that all people can use reason ... i never claimed that they don't. i just wish to make sure that their arguments are well-founded. it goes without saying that if i make a blunder that i expect people to correct me. once we have all gone through this process of removing the non-essential and contradictory bits, we should (hopefully) have made some progress towards the truth. mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis don lowe, department of physics, monash university, melbourne, victoria, australia, 3168. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20731">
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 i apologize if this post isn't entirely appropriate for the newsgroup. i would like to correspond with any christians attending the university of illinois at urbana-champaign. i will be transfering there in august to complete my ph.d. and i thought it would be nice to correspond with people before i moved out. steven h. schimmrich department of geological sciences "non semper ss6349@csc.albany.edu state university of new york at albany ea sunt quae ss6349@albnyvms.bitnet albany, new york 12222 (518) 442-4466 videntur." 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20732">
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 in <apr.23.02.55.31.1993.3123@geneva.rutgers.edu> tim asks: i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist, but definitely do not believe in the christian god. the recent discussion about atheists and hell, combined with a post to another group (to the effect of 'you will all go to hell') has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men. as a catholic, i was told that a jew, buddhist, etc. might go to heaven, but obviously some people do not believe this. even more see atheists and pagans (i assume i would be lumped into this category) to be hellbound. i know you believe only god can judge, and i do not ask you to, just for your opinions. this is probably too simplistic for some, but john 3:16 saus, "for god so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". genesis 15:6, "and he (abram) believed the lord; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness". i don't find anywhere that god restricts heaven to particular ethnic groups or religious denominations or any other category that we humans like to drop people into. but he does require that we believe and trust him. in hebrews it says that god spoke of old by the prophets (the old testament), but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son jesus christ. and we learn of him through the pages of the new testament. the bible tells us what we need to believe. for those who have never heard, i leave them in god's capable care, he will make himself known as he desires. it behooves each one of us to act upon the knowledge we have. if you reject the claims of jesus, and still go to heaven, then the joke's on me. if you reject him and go to hell, that's no joke, but it will be final. the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20733">
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 one of the laws of nature, specifying cause and effect seems to dictate (at least to this layman's mind) there must be a causal event. no reasonable alternative exists. the big-bang model supposes a temporal singularity at the point of origin. there was _no_ time for a prior cause to occur in. if you want to invent fables for the surrounding context, fine, but one fable is only as good as any other. why should i prefer to believe in a god that _just_ exists, as opposed to a singularity that _just happened_, or giant puce subspace iguanas, that fling universes off their tongues like gobs of spit? |as far as i can tell, the very laws of nature demand a "why". that isn't |true of something outside of nature (i.e., *super*natural). i believe the "genetic code" will be entirely deciphered in our lifetimes, but we will not see man convert entirely inert material into self sustaining, reproducing life, *ever*. (i've never been much of a prophet, though. i can't even *picture* new york in my mind 8^] ). i don't believe *any* technology would be able to produce that necessary *spark* of life, despite having all of the parts available. just my opinion. just your opinion, and unfortunately wrong. self assembling molecules have already been produced, entirely from inert matter, and have spontaneously mutated into a more rapidly assembling form on exposure to ultraviolet light. both abiogenesis and the beginnings of evolution, today. (saw this in "nature", early last year.) biological vitalism is dead, and has been dead for many, many years. give it up. life is not a 'spark'. life is the self-organization of systems poised between chaos and order. until the king returns, your king baldly and repeatedly stated he would be back within the lifetime of some then present and alive. "soon, soon" he said, over and over - as have many would be messiahs. it is nineteen ninety three of years anno domini tell me, tell me, where is he? nowhere at all, q. e. d. max g. webb [i should have watched this more closely. we had a discussion about the first cause, etc., not long ago. i'm not up for a replay. there was also a detailed discussion of the point max brings up here about the initial singularity. the geometry near the big bang is very interesting. time turns into space, so there is no "before". --clh] 
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<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20735" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 jeff fenholt claims to have once been a roadie for black sabbath. he was never ever a musician in the band. he was in st. louis several months back. the poster i saw at the christian bookstore i frequent really turned me off. it was addressed to all "homosexuals, prostitutes, drug addicts, alcoholics, and headbangers..." or something like that. well, if i showed up with my long hair and black leather jacket i would have felt a little pre-judged. i have seen jeff fenholt speak and i didn't find him judgemental. i think that the wording for that add was certainly inappropriate, but i think they were trying to say that headbangers would like the program. but i would not put headbangers in the same class as alcholics, etc. it is condescending. and i believe that jeff was wearing black when i saw him. by the way, fenholt played jesus in jesus christ superstar. personally, i'm a headbanger at times too, but i have a hard time with what most of the secular metal groups promote. free sex and drugs (my opinion that many promote these) aren't my thing. i have found several good christian metal groups that i like. jon ogden - jono@mac-ak-24.rtsg.mot.com motorola cellular - advanced products division voice: 708-632-2521 data: 708-632-6086 they drew a circle and shut him out. heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. but love and i had the wit to win; we drew a circle and took him in. 
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 (well, i'll email also, but this may apply to other people, so i'll post also.) i've been working at this company for eight years in various engineering jobs. i'm female. yesterday i counted and realized that on seven different occasions i've been sexually harrassed at this i dreaded coming back to work today. what if my boss comes in to ask me some kind of question... your boss should be the person bring these problems to. if he/she does not seem to take any action, keep going up higher and higher. sexual harrassment does not need to be tolerated, and it can be an enormous emotional support to discuss this with someone and know that they are trying to do something about it. if you feel you can not discuss this with your boss, perhaps your company has a personnel department that can work for you while preserving your privacy. most companies will want to deal with this problem because constant anxiety does seriously affect how effectively employees do their jobs. it is unclear from your letter if you have done this or not. it is not inconceivable that management remains ignorant of employee problems/strife even after eight years (it's a miracle if they do notice). perhaps your manager did not bring to the attention of higher ups? if the company indeed does seem to want to ignore the entire problem, there may be a state agency willing to fight with you. (check with a lawyer, a women's resource center, etc to find out) you may also want to discuss this with your paster, priest, husband, etc. that is, someone you know will not be judgemental and that is supportive, comforting, etc. this will bring a lot of healing. so i returned at 11:25, only to find that ever single person had already left for lunch. they left at 11:15 or so. no one could be bothered to call me at the other building, even though my number was posted. this happens to a lot of people. honest. i believe it may seem to be due to gross insensitivity because of the feelings you are going through. people in offices tend to be more insensitive while working than they normally are (maybe it's the hustle or stress or...) i've had this happen to me a lot, often because they didn't realize my car was broken, etc. then they will come back and wonder why i didn't want to go (this would tend to make me stop being angry at being ignored and make me laugh). once, we went off without our boss, who was paying for the lunch :-) for this reason i hope good mr. moderator allows me this latest indulgence. well, if you can't turn to the computer for support, what would we do? (signs of the computer age :-) in closing, please don't let the hateful actions of a single person harm you. they are doing it because they are still the playground bully and enjoy seeing the hurt they cause. and you should not accept the opinions of an imbecile that you are worthless - much wiser people hold you in great esteem. darin johnson djohnson@ucsd.edu - luxury! in my day, we had to make do with 5 bytes of swap... 
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 over the years, i have met christians who are not associated with any local church and are not members of any local church. this is an issue that may be very personal, but is important. what does the bible say about this and how can we encourage our friends with regard to this issue? | gary chin | | staff engineer | | sun microsystems | | mt. view, ca | | gchin@eng.sun.com | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20739">
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 i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist, but so you believe in the existance of one creator i assume. definitely do not believe in the christian god. the recent discussion about atheists and hell, combined with a post to another group (to the effect of 'you will all go to hell') has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men. as a catholic, i was told that a jew, buddhist, etc. might go to heaven, but obviously some people do not believe this. even more see atheists and pagans (i assume i would be lumped into this category) to be hellbound. i know you believe only god can judge, and i do not ask you to, just for your opinions. ok, god has the disclaimer, reserves the right to judge individual cases. if we believe him to be loving, then we also believe him to be able to serve justice to all. don't worry if a jew, or athiest is going to heaven or hell, for that is god to judge (although truly if you were concerned you could only worry abput those who refuse to believe/satisfy gods decrees) as much as keeping yourself straight. if you see something going on that is wrong, discuss it and explore it before making summary judgement. people have enough free will to choose for themselves, so don't force choices on them, just inform them of what they're choices are. god will take care of the rest in his justice. mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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 : > i'm a commited christian that is battling with a problem. i know : > that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet : > hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' you fools, : > do you still think that just believing is enough?' : [stuff deleted] : > now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do) : > as taught in romans, but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james : > in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being 'spat-out' : > can anyone help me, this really bothers me. i have received tons of mail from people replying to this article i wrote, and i would just like to thank everyone who took the time to give me a hand. it has indeed helped me and re-affirmed alot of theories that i held but was a little unsure about. god bless you all | dallas cowboys - world champions 1992-93 | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20742">
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 : the next sunday, the sermon was about joshua 6 (where the israelites : take jericho and then proceed to massacre everybody there --- except : for rahab, who had sheltered the spies). with those reports about : bosnia in my mind, i felt uncomfortable about the minister saying that : the massacre (the one in joshua) was right. but what really bothered : me was that, if i was going to try taking christianity seriously, i : shouldn't be so troubled about the reports of "ethnic cleansing" in : bosnia. certainly, my sympathies shouldn't be with the moslims. : considering that the bosnian muslims are descendants of christians : who, under turkish rule, converted to islam could the serbs be doing : god's work? perhaps it would be useful to ask whether those doing the ethnic cleansing could be said to be loving those they are killing in the very act of killing. does it reflect the attitude of god, who sends rain to both the just and the unjust? if not, then christians should be uncomfortable with it. jesus gave his followers the law of love to follow and it is by exhibiting this that disciples will be known. doctrinal (or political) correctness is not the standard, so i don't see why christians should be moved against the serbs because their ancestors converted from christianity to islam. it seems to me that as a christian you _should_ be troubled by the ethnic cleansing. scott shalkowski scott@arts.uwa.edu.au 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20743">
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 this is an annual time of prayer organized by the focus on the family organization. if you have not heard about it on your christian radio station or at your local church, call them and they may be able to give you the information. many cities in the san francisco bay area have local coordinators organizing the time and the place to meet to pray. in san francisco, oakland, berkeley, san jose, people will be meeting at ~12:15pm at each city's city hall. last year, i attended at the mountain view city hall. it was a very quiet and meaningful time of prayer. | gary chin | | staff engineer | | sun microsystems | | mt. view, ca | | gchin@eng.sun.com | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20745">
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 why do we follow god so blindly? have you ever asked a physically blind person why he or she follows a seeing eye dog? the answer is quite simple--the dog can see, and the blind person of course, you may ask, if i cannot trust my own senses, how do i know whether what i see and hear about god is truth or a lie. that is why we need faith to be saved. we must force ourselves to believe that god knows the truth, and loves us enough to share it with us, even when it defies what we think we know. why would he have created us if he did not love us enough to help us through this world? seems to me if you learned to differentiate between illusion and reality on your own you wouldn't need to rely on doctrines that need to be updated. my experience of christianity (25+ years) is that most christians seek answers from clergymen who have little or no direct experience of spiritual matters, and that most of these questions can be answered by simple introspection. most people suspect that they cannot trust their senses, but few take the next step to figure out that they can trust themselves. not to get too esoteric, but it seems that most religions, christianity included, are founded by particularly intuitive people who understand (stuff deleted) as for you, no one can "convert" you. you must choose to follow god of your own will, if you are ever to follow him. all we as christians wish to do is share with you the love we have received from god. if you reject that, we have to accept your decision, although we always keep the offer open to you. if you really want to find out why we believe what we believe, i can only suggest you try praying for faith, reading the bible, and asking christians about their experiences personally.... and what if the original poster, pixie, is never "converted?" does it make sense that she (or i, or the majority of humanity for that matter) would go to hell for eternity, as many christians believe? it makes more sense to me that rather than be converted to a centuries-old doctrine that holds no life for her, that she simply continue to decide for herself what is best. [you may be right about christians relying on clergy, but i have some reason to hope you're not. protestants emphasize conversion, experience of the holy spirit, and use of the bible. this is intended to make sure that christians have religious experience of their own, and that they have some basis on which to judge claims of clergy and other christians. i can't speak for catholics and orthodox, but i believe they also attempt to avoid having members who simply repeat what they are told. i admit that this isn't always successful -- we certainly see young people join our church because at that age parents expect it. but most of our members do seem quite able and willing to make judgements for themselves, and have a commitment that comes out of their own experience. unfortunately, it's the nature of usenet that doctrinal disagreements get emphasized, so it looks like we spend most of our time dealing with doctrine. that's certainly not my experience of the way christians really live. --clh] 
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 how much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver! proverbs 16:16 ah and how...??? amen to that one!!!!!! thanks chuck for sharing... after all, no one can serve two masters...god and money...... after all, the preciousness of god as lord and savior is far more valuable than being a millionaire will ever be... in him, 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20748">
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 |> >those who have an empty spot in the god-shaped hole in their hearts must |> >do something to ease the pain. |> i have heard this claim quite a few times. does anybody here know |> who first came up with the "god-shaped hole" business? was it pascal, or maybe descartes, who first used this figure of speech? i seem to have some vague recollections from reading some of their essays, but i certainly couldn't say it was one of them for sure. todd smith tsmith@cs.stanford.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20750">
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 above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of ipeter 4:8 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20751">
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 [very good and reasonable statements on "authority" deleted] the atheist position seems to be that there are no authorities. this is a reasonable assertion in itself, but it leads to a practical difficulty. if you reject all authority out of hand, you reject all possibility of every receiving information. thus the atheist position can never possibly change. it is non-falsifiable and therefore unscintific. this is not true. the athiest's position is that there is no proof of the existence of god. as much as some people accept their church, their priests or straight from their own scriptures as the "proof", this does not satisfy atheists. atheists do believe in recognisable authorities. if they were as dogmatic as you claim they are, they would be trying to prove 1 + 1 =2 every time they got up. what they dispute is that churches, priests, scriptures etc. represent true authorities and know the truth. to demand scintific or rational proof of god's existence, is to deny god's existence, since neither science, nor reason, can, in their very nature, prove anything. are you asking us to believe blindly? you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question "does god exist?" i.e. self-awareness and reason. if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth. does god want us to be like that? you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything. however, if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone. and since we can only use faith, why is one picture of "god" (e.g. hinduism) any less valid than another (e.g. christianity)? mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis don lowe, department of physics, monash university, melbourne, victoria, australia, 3168. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20754">
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 i would like to get your opinions on this: when exactly does an engaged couple become "married" in god's eyes? not if they are unwilling to go through a public marriage ceremony, nor if they say they are willing but have not actually done so. let's distinguish _real_ logistical problems (like being stranded on a desert island) from _excuses_ (such as waiting for so-and-so's brother to come back from being in the army so he can be in the ceremony)... :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20755">
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 finally: there is no proof of the resurrection of christ, except in our spirits communion with his, and the father's. it is a matter of faith, belief without logical proof. incedently one of the largest stumbling blocks for rational western man, myself included. i hope that this is taken in the spirit it was intended and not as a rejection of the resurrection's occurance. i beleive, but i wanted to point out the weakness of logical proofs. terms are being used in a loaded way here. "logical proof" is an extremely messy thing to apply to real life. if you think otherwise, try to construct a proof that yesterday happened. obviously it did; anyone old enough to be reading this was there for it and remembers that it happened. but *proof*? a proof starts with axioms and goes somewhere. you need axioms to talk about logical proof. you can say that you remember yesterday, and that you take as axiom that anything you clearly remember happened. i could counterclaim that you hallucinated the whole thing. to talk about proofs of historical events, you have to relax the terms a bit. you can show evidences, not proofs. evidences of the resurrected jesus exist. proofs do not. i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved. i also think that this will not happen, as the evidence for the resurrection is quite good as these things go. it is not entirely fair to claim that you can only take the resurrection on faith. there are reasons to believe it that appeal to the mind, too. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20760">
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 desiree bradley (desiree_bradley@mindlink.bc.ca) asked us whether we should think of the serbs as doing god's work in bosnia. i've refrained from posting, in hope that someone who is more familiar with the ot than i would answer. but at this point i feel i have to say many things about this posting bother me. i know of not the slightest suggestion in the nt that christians should use force to propagate the gospel, and the idea that we should not be concerned about the death of moslems violates the heart of the gospel. christ died to break down these distinctions. in him there is neither jew nor greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female. if moslems do not know him, we may preach to them, but we don't kill them. furthermore, the attack is between states, not religions. there are christians being attacked as well. one of the towns under attack is one of the few places where christians and moslems are living together peacefully. the precedents being suggested are from the ot. there are in fact two different things being alluded to. the first is from the entry into canaan. for that to be a parallel, we would need for god to have promised this land through a prophet. and we would need the war to be a holy war. there were tight constraints on behavior in those attacks. any violations were likely to cause the israelites to be defeated. rape would not have been tolerated. while the accounts in joshua emphasize towns that were totally destroyed, note that it was possible for a town to make peace with the israelites, and that once that was done -- even when deception was involved -- they were expected to honor it. in contrast, there have been many violations of agreement in this incident. i see no evidence that god has granted bosnia to the serbs as a promised land, and if he had, their behavior would have disqualified this from being a holy war. the other ot parallel is from later, when israel was defeated by assyria and babylonia. the prophets saw this as a judgement on israel for her sins. someone asks whether we shouldn't see this as a judgement on the bosnians for their sins. this sounds like a replay of the old claim that we shouldn't have doctors or hospitals because illness is god's judgement. yes, even bad things may be used by god for good. that includes actions of bad people. but that doesn't justify them. if you read the prophets, you find them very clear that in attacking israel, the assyrians and babylonians were acting as *unintentional* agents of god. their intent was to attack god's people, and they would be judged for it. the fact that they were actually carrying out god's plan didn't excuse their action. furthermore, we shouldn't conclude from this that all attacks are judgements from god. god explicitly interpreted that case, through his prophets. as far as i know, he did not send any prophets to bosnia. while i find it hard to see any good in the current fighting, i am sure god will eventually make good come out of bad. but that doesn't justify it, and it won't save the people who are doing it from i am particularly concerned about the implications of this issue because of current tensions between the west and moslem-oriented nations. what we do not need is for moslems to conclude that christians think it's ok to kill moslems. the implications for the mid-east, and even relations with american moslems, could be quite 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20763">
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 i like those lyrics, since whenever i am approached by judgemental, pharisitical, evangelical fundamentalists who throw the bible at me because i have long hair, wear a black leather jacket, and listen to black sabbath, i have something to throw back.... it just goes to show that there are more important evils in the world to battle than rock lyrics........... it just goes to show that not all evangelical fundamentalists are pharisitical! i wear a black leather jacket, like classic rock, but no longer have the long locks i once had. however, i too rely upon the bible as a basis for christian a fundamentalistic evangelical, --rex 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20766">
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 i am a student at uw-eau claire. i am doing a paper an witches and wanted to get your point of view. i will not use you name unless you specifically tell me to do so. please answer this question: as a christian, are you offended by witches and wiccan? do you feel that tehy are pagan in the evil sense of the word? you time and cooperation is appreciated. thanks, j. -this survey is being conducted in partial fulfillment of the course requirements for engl 201, taught by karen welch at the university of wisconsin-eau claire. this course is in compliance with the course certification requirements of the university institutional review board for the protection of human subjects. [but is it in compliance with any reasonable method for choosing samples??? --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20767">
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 [ -and many others mailed me. here is a reply to one of the letters. seems to me that atheist do not like the doctrine of hell!] there's nothing like a preacher to put fear into an ignorant man... if god hadn't created hell in the first place, there'd be no no need to "die" and save us. isn't it also a bit paradoxical to say "god died" when, in fact, no such thing is remotely possible. can the infinite die? your using 20th century concepts to interprete 1st century writers. of course, in your termonology, god could not "cease to exist." however, that is not what death ever means in the scriptures. if you will study the word, you will see that it signifies "separation." death is separation, not ceastation. this is the reason for the agony of the cross. for the first time in eternity, one member of the godhead was separated from the other two. i once met a young lady that was as beautiful as any model that ever lived. she was as personable as any saint ever imagined. she was to become my "girlfriend" for several years. however, having been drafted, we were separated by distance. to me that was a form of death. later, she decided that she couldn't wait for me to come home and bid me adue. that to me was death. it was separation from that which had made me whole. death is separation and eternal death is eternal separation from his fellowship, not because he chose to send you into outer darkness, but because you chose to go did you know that jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven! thank you for this info. what respect i had for the man now has been diminished tenfold. i promise never again to say how wise or loving this man was... when i rebelled against my earthly father, he spanked me. i found no wisdom in that until i had grown older and especially until i had my own children. he was trying to guide me away from hurt that would enter my life if i continued on my suicidal course. he did it in love though i interpreted it as harsh and unloving. if god warns of impending danger, that is love. if choose to let us do as we please, and then at the end tell us the rules, that would be harsh. you have a conscience, no matter how calused or fallen it is, that witnesses to you that a thing is wrong and that there is cause for fear. being jesus was allegedly god, i doubt he could honestly feel the pinpricks man dealt him... this may give light to the error of your understanding. one must have correct knowledge in order to have correct faith. faith and knowledge are inseparable. jesus most certainly felt the "pinpricks" of life. as the scripture say: heb. 4:15 for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without the kenosis passage of phil 2 states that he gave up his godhead attributes when he took upon himself humanity. it has been a favorite meditation of mine to think about this. it was to be my phd thesis. "the consciousness of christ." i have talked at length with a great many people about this interesting study, including clh. it is my conclussion that as jesus, the 2nd member of the trinity, actually suffered as we do. he became part of the human race and experienced it as we do. he "grew in knowledge." he chose not to grasp his omniscience, but chose to be taught. it is my understanding that he was "led of the spirit" to such an extent that sometimes it is hard to distinquish between jesus the man and jesus as god. but in jn 8 where the adulterous women was thrown before him, the tenses are quite clear in that the whole situation took him by surprise. that is, he was not aware that this event was to take place in time. he was living sequential history as you or i. maybe some other time we can discuss this, but it is a very lengthy discussion and one that causes the curcuit breakers of the brain to pop more often than thanks again for the info. just so you know, some friends and i are starting a freethinkers organization-- and i'm going to use some of the info you provided for an organization intro- duction... :-) i was once a member of that club. the "free thinker" is a glorious ideal. by contrast, of course, you believe that the believer is the unforunate repository of everything that is dogmatic, inhibited, reactionary and repressive. i find such a stance to be as amusing as it is absurd. if the liberal humanist wishes to criticize a christian or a buddhist or a marxist, that is his right. but what he must not pretend is that he was led to this solely by his "rational doubt" when in fact he was led to it by his "faith". he must acknowledge that while it is rational doubt for him as a "free thinker" to criticize the christian, it might equally be a rational doubt for the christian to criticize him as a humanist. if there is no faith, there can be no dout. there is no faith which cannot choose to cast doubt on some other faith. pascal pointed out that "sceptical arguments allow the positive to be positive. few. . .speak dubiously of scepticism." the fact that skeptics are not skeptical about skepticism is further evidence that to doubt anything we must believe in something else! the person who is skeptical toward one faith or even most faiths, will be the devoted adherent of another. in fact, it is a measure of his poverty both that he is unaware of it and that he can define himself only in negative terms, hence the term "a"-theist. some people claim otherwise and argue vociferously for complete skepticism. in my campus ministry i ran across this more times than i care to remember. however, they disproved their own argument with every thought, every word, every point of logic that they used. every moment of shared communication speaks against their total skepticism. their very insistence of trying to make sense is eloquent testimony to assumptions that are powerful though silent. that is to say, that complete skepticism is impossible and limited skepticism is arbitrary. next time you're in a room of skeptics, yell out "look, your fly is undone!" each person chooses what he is skeptical about and what he believes without skepticism. to stress this is to belabor the obvious, but it underlines the point that no one can know exhaustively how he knows what he knows. pure objectivism is a myth and complete skepticism an impossiblity. the answer to this impasse lies in a 3rd way of knowing, one which is based on presuppositions. but if knowledge proceeds on what must be presupposed before it is proved, the cover is blown on the pretentions of critical doubt, and critical doubt depends on the idea that human knowledge is totally objective and neutral. in other words, another myth. presuppositions my friend. it is impossible to doubt anything unless there is something we do not doubt -our own assumptions/presuppostions. even these can be criticezed only upon the basis of other assumptions. presuppostitons are our silent partners in thought but their silence must not be mistaken for i tell you what-- if god condemns me for being honest, he is unworthy of my worship. better to burn in hell than to serve a tyrant in heaven.. of course that is hardly an original statement. milton coined it but it had been in use for millenia. it was even used in the first "highlander" movie. but again, your presuption is based on a faulty knowledge of the character of god. you are operating off of a presuppositional premise of humanistic theology, not what he has revealed of himself through history, through his prophets, through his word, and lastly, but most of all, thru his son. if you are to reject god's annointed savior, then reject him from a correct understanding of himself. --rex 
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 but what if the geologists are wrong and these people are warning of a non-existent danger? analogies can only push an argument so far (on both sides). both melinda's and yours assume the premises used to set up your respective analogies are true and thus the correct conclusion will arise. the important point to note is the different directions both sides come from. christians believe they know the truth and thus believe they have the right (and duty) to tell the truth to all. christians can get offended if others do not believe (what is self-evidently to them) the truth. non-christians do not believe this is the truth and get offended at them because they (christians) claim to know the truth. the analogy does not depend on the premisses being true, because the question under discussion is not truth but arrogance. a similar analogy might be a medical doctor who believes that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of a child whose parents are jehovah's witnesses and so have conscientious objections to blood transfusion. the doctor's efforts to persuade them to agree to a blood transfusion could be perceived to be arrogant in precisely the same way as christians could be perceived to be arrogant. the truth or otherwise of the belief that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of the child is irrelevant here. what matters is that the doctor believes it to be true, and could be seen to be trying to foce his beliefs on the parents, and this could well be perceived as arrogance. steve hayes, department of missiology & editorial department univ. of south africa, p.o. box 392, pretoria, 0001 south africa internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za fidonet: 5:7101/20 steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org faq: missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20769">
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 i find it interesting that cls never answered any of the questions posed. then he goes on the make statements which make me shudder. he has established a two-tiered god. one set of rules for the jews (his people) and another set for the saved gentiles (his people). why would god discriminate? does the jew who accepts jesus now have to live under the gentile rules. god has one set of rules for all his people. paul was never against the law. in fact he says repeatedly that faith establishes rather that annuls the law. paul's point is germane to both jews and greeks. the law can never be used as an instrument of salvation. and please do not combine the ceremonial and moral laws in one. in matt 5:14-19 christ plainly says what he came to do and you say he was only saying that for the jews's benefit. your christ must be a politician, speaking from both sides of his mouth. as paul said, "i have not so learned christ." forget all the theology, just do what jesus says. your excuses will not hold up in a court of law on earth, far less in god's judgement hall. pardon me for being a little confused, but at the beginning of your second paragraph, you say, "god has one set of rules for all his people," yet at the end of the same paragraph you declare, "please do not combine the ceremonial and moral laws in one." not only do i not understand where in the bible you find the declaration that there are 2 laws (ceremonial and moral), but i am also unclear on whether you think it is bad to have 2 sets of laws in the first place. if it's bad to have 2 sets of laws, how can there be a ceremonial law that is different from the moral law (and vice versa)? i would also be interested in your comments on the passage in i cor. 10:1-16, where paul teaches different rules for covering you head while praying depending on whether you are a man or a woman. do you think the apostles can prescribe different sets of rules for men and women? if so, then why not for jews and gentiles? also, why did paul, who was so opposed to circumcising gentiles, voluntarily circumcise timothy? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20771">
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 hold it. i said that all of scripture is true. however, discerning exactly what jesus, paul and company were trying to say is not always so easy. i don't believe that paul was trying to say that all women should behave that way. rather, he was trying to say that under the circumstances at the time, the women he was speaking to would best avoid volubility and cover their heads. this has to do with maintaining a proper witness toward others. remember that any number of relativistic statements can be derived from absolutes. for instance, it is absolutely right for christians to strive for peace. however, this does not rule out trying to maintain world peace by resorting to violence on occasion. (yes, my opinion.) i agree that there is truth in scripture. there are principles to be learned from it. claiming that that truth is absolute, though, seems to imply a literal reading of the bible. if it were absolute truth (constant across time, culture, etc.) then no interpretation would be i strongly disagree that absolute truth would not require interpretation. that's because truth may be absolute, but it may not be obvious. like so many things, the truth is always subject to misinterpretation. i strongly suspect that we are reaching an impasse here, which is why i deign from commenting much further. sure. the bible preaches absolute truths. however, exactly what those truths are is sometimes a matter of confusion. as i said, the bible does preach absolute truths. sometimes those fundamental principles are crystal clear (at least to evangelicals). this is where the arrogance comes in to play. since these principles are crystal clear to evangelicals, maybe the rest of us should just take their word for it? maybe it isn't at all crystal clear to *me* that their fundamental principles are either fundamental *or* principles. now hold it. i never said that christians cannot be arrogant. indeed, as many other christians on src have stressed before, this is a trap that christians must always be wary about. however, this does not mean that if you believe in the absolutes established by the bible, you are necessarily being arrogant. a christian can believe that the word of god is absolute, but he or she should not expect this to be immediately evident to everyone. so, i think that your position is: the bible is absolute truth, but as we are prone to error in our interpretation, we cannot reliably determine if we have figured out what that truth is. did i get that right? not quite. you say that according to my stance, we cannot *reliably* determine what is true. that is not what i said. i say that as fallible human beings, we cannot discern the truth with 100% certainty. the distinction is subtle yet important. when a scientist performs an experiment, he can claim that his results are reliable, without claiming that absolutely no mistake whatsoever could have been made. in other words, he can admit that he could be mistaken, without sacrificing his convictions. nobody can establish what absolute truth is with 100% certainty. throughout the centuries, philosophers have argued about what we can know with complete certainty and what we cannot. descartes made a step in the right direction when he uttered, "cogito, ergo sum," yet we have not advanced much beyond that. do you believe that other people aside from you exist? do you believe that the computer terminal you are using exists? if so, can you be absolutely certain about that? are you sure it is not some grand illusion? of course, you have no such assurance. this does not mean, however, that for all practical purposes, you can be certain that they exist. so it is with christianity. the most mature christians i know have deep convictions about absolute morality, yet they acknowledge that there is a non-zero probability that they are wrong. this does not, however, mean that they should (or do) abandon these absolutes. what's the point of spending all this time claiming and defending absolute truth, when we can never know what those truths are, and we can never (or at least shouldn't) act upon them? what practical difference can this make? as i said, we can never be absolutely certain that we are correct. this does not mean that we cannot be certain enough, in light of the evidence, to render all doubts unreasonable. virgilio "dean" velasco jr, department of electrical eng'g and applied physics cwru graduate student, roboticist-in-training and q wannabee "bullwinkle, that man's intimidating a referee!" | my boss is a "not very well. he doesn't look like one at all!" | jewish carpenter. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20775">
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 "well you know that religion has caused more wars than anything else" it bothers me that i cannot seem to find a satisfactory response to this. after all if our religion is all about peace and love why have there been so many religious wars? of course if this question was asked in a group dealing with economics, the answer would be that the cause of war was economic. my observations over the past 30 years (and not withstanding a little history reading beside) is that while religious differences do play a part in many of the conflicts, so does (unfortunately) race, economics and any other items that identify one group of men as being different from another. if we want to couch the cause of conflict in christian terms, i would put it while christ died for our sins, we are yet sinners. while some individuals assume "christlike" natures, most of us do not even come close. i realize that in many ways this is a trite answer, but i guess that it is my way of rationalizing man's constant (or so it seems) jerry kemp (somtime consultant) internet: kempja@rcwusr.bp.com kemp_ja@tnd001.dnet.bp.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20776">
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 julie, it is a really trying situation that you have described. my brother was living with someone like that and things were almost as bad (although he left after a considerably shorter amount of time due to other problems with the relationship). anyway, the best thing to do would be to get everyone in the same room together (optimally in a room with nothing breakable), lock the door behind you, throw the key out underneath the door (just as far as the longest hand can reach. you would like to get out after the conclusion, i would imagine), and hash things out. more than likely, there will be screaming, crying, and possibly hitting (unless of course someone decided to bring some rope to tie people down). some of the best strategies in keeping things calmer would include: have each individual own their own statements (ie, i feel that this relationship is hurting everyone involved because.... or i really don't understand where you're coming from.) reinforce statements by paraphrasing, etc. (ie, so you think that we did this because of...? well, let me just say that the reason for this was ....) don't accuse each other (it was your fault that ... happened!) find a common ground about something (lampshades really are decorational and functional at the same time.) guaranteed, in a situation like this, there is going to be some gunnysacking (re-hashing topics which were assumed resolved, but were truly not and someone feels someone else is to blame). however, this should be kept to a minimum and simply ask for forgiveness or apologize about each situation without holding a smoldering grudge. the relationship really can work. it's just a matter of keeping things smooth and even. it's sort of like making a peace treaty between warring factions: you can't give one side everything; there must be a compromise. breaks can be taken, but communication between everyone involved must continue if the relationships here are to survive. joe fisher 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20777">
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 rob butera asks about a book called the lost years of jesus, by elizabeth clare prophet. marriage, if i remember aright), base almost all their teachings on messages they have allegedly received by telepathy from tibet. i should be surprised if the book you mention has any scholarly basis. actually, there was very little to the book. first of all looking at the titles of her other books, i would personally consider her to be engaged in a bizarre form of christian-like mysticism heavily influenced by eastern philosphies (great titles like _the_astrology_of_the_4_horsemen_). however, other than the chapter one into, there's nothing original, biased, or even new this book. it is basically a collection of previously published works by those who claim that there exist buddhist and hindu stories that christ visited india and china (he was known as issa) during the period from late teens to age 30. conclusion: the book actually lets you come to your own view by presenting a summary of various published works and letters, all of which you could verify independently. it includes refutations to such works as well. therefore, even if you think she is theologically warped, this book is a nice reference summary for the interested. rob butera | ece grad student | "only sick music makes money today" rice university | houston, tx 77054 | - nietzsche, 1888 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20783">
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 hey... i may be wrong, but wasn't jeff fenholt part of black sabbath? he's a major brother in christ now. he totally changed his life around, and he and his wife go on tours singing, witnessing, and spreading the gospel for christ. i may be wrong about black sabbath, but i know he was in a similar band if it wasn't that particular group... how great is th love the father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of god! and that is what we are! (1 john 3:1) grace and peace to all, (i'll see you all someday!) jprzybyl@scott.skidmore.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20786">
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 i think it's really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man, even if he did claim to be the son of god, and/or a prophet. i'll pose a question here that's got me thinking: what distinguishes "true" religion from cults (i'm speaking generally here, not specifially about christianity)? jerry falwell was on good morning america on tuesday ostensibly to answer this question. basically, he said that true religion follows a message whereas a cult follows a person. but, then, christianity is a cult because the message of christianity is the person of jesus. so what distinguishes, for example, the branch davidian "cult" from the presbyterian "church"? doctrinal differences don't answer the question, imho, so don't use them as an answer. -- scott at brandeis "but god demonstrates his "the lord bless you, and keep you; own love for us, in that the lord make his face shine on you, while we were yet sinners, and be gracious to you; christ died for us." the lord lift up his countenance on you, and give you peace." -- romans 5:8 [nasb] -- numbers 6:24-26 [nasb] [there have been some attempts to characterize "cult". most commonly it uses characteristics involving high pressure, brainwashing techniques, etc. but some people characterize it by doctrinal error. in the end i'm afraid it becomes a term with no precise meaning that's used primarily to dismiss groups as not worthy of serious consideration. that doesn't mean that there aren't groups that do highly irresponsible things and have serious doctrinal errors. but past discussions have not suggested to me that "cult" is a very helpful term. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20787">
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 the bible's message is that we are to love all people, and that all people are redeemable. it preaches a message of repentance, and of giving. unfortunately, all people have deceitful hearts, and are capable of turning this message around and contorting it in sometimes unbelievable ways. this is also a fundamental christian doctrine. how i wish this were true, and how i long for the day in which it will be true. but alas, it is not true of history. the bible does not have a message -- it has messages. and some of those are messages of repentance and giving, to turn the other cheek, and do unto the least of these. but some of the messages are the complete opposite. like the isrealites order to wipe out other tribes including women and children down to cattle, and punished severely when they were less than complete about the job. like jews who are said to have cried out in matthew, "his blood be upon our heads and our childrens heads" a verse quoted in every pogrom from the crusades to the holocaust. have these been misunderstood? i think not. they have only been understood too clearly. it is essential that christians grasp firmly the good the bible teaches, the meek carpenter from nazareth is a potent symbol for how we should be, his teachings we must take to heart, but we cannot ignore the other material in the bible which is not to our liking and say those who live by that have misread it. to say that is only to chose a point of interpretation and declare it normative. such can be done with the same legitmacy by anyone. instead we must let the text critique the text. understanding that there is both good and bad in our sacred corpus, we test all things and hold fast to that which is good. p.s. i believe that a line of questioning like you presented is, strangely enough, compatible with becoming a christian. certainly christianity encourages one to question the behaviour of the world, and especially christians. i praise god for jesus christ, and the fact that we can doubt our beliefs and still come back to god and be forgiven, time and time at the risk of sounding heretical (well ok, more heretical) i don't think that doubt is something which requires forgiveness, it is something which requires introspection and reflection. if that is a sin, then there can be no salvation, for doubt is an inescapble part of being human. consider job. his friends had no doubt. whereas job had no doubt in himself but doubted the wisdom and justice of god. when god finally did appear he rebuked the friends and had job make sacrifices for them. to be a christian it to always have doubt, or not to have honesty. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20788">
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 i've just read carol's response and i just had to get into this. i've got some verses which are not subject to interpretation because they say what they say. joe, just 'cause you say they aren't subject to interpretation doesn't necesarily make it so. that's *your* *interpretation* of these texts. they are 2 peter 1:20-21, 2 timothy 3:16-17, and galatians 1:11-12. 2 peter 1:20-21 but know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the holy spirit spoke from god. the study notes in my bible offer three possible meanings for verse 20. apparantly it's not as clear to charles ryrie as it is to you. 2 timothy 3:16-17 all scripture is inspired by god and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of god may be adequate, equipped for every good work. galations 1:11-12 for i would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. for i neither received it from man, nor was i taught it, but i receieved it through a revelation of jesus when i read these passages, it was not immediately clear to me what every phrase meant. i had stop and think about the possible connotations of words, what the intent of the author may have been, wonder if the translator used the correct english word to convey the same meaning: i had to interpret. if you want to believe that your are not interpreting scripture as you read, there's probably nothing i can say to change your mind. but i think it's naive to think that our culture, experiences, education, do not affect everything we read. also, based on the fact that jesus is the word incarnate and he judges people if they follow him (see acts 17:29-31 and john 5:21-27) and that those who reject jesus' teachings are judged by the very words he spoke (see john 12:47-50), then jesus' words are true and do not need interpretation, nor would it be just of god to judge based on his word if it had to be interpreted. in college, i took an entire course in biblical interpretation. go to any christian bookstore, there are scores of books on interpreting and understanding scripture. if interpretation is unnecessary, there are an awful lot of misguided christians out there wasting a lot of time and energy on it. carol alvin caralv@auto-trol.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20789">
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 ofm replies to a question on the multiplicity of translations of the bible, as far as i know, no christians believe that the process of copying manuscripts or the process of translating is free of error. unfortunately, this isn't true. on another news group earlier this year, someone posted that the king james bible was the divinely inspired version of the bible in english and was, therefore, inerrant; all other english translations were from satan, trying to deceive the body of christ. a few years ago, the pastor of a church i was attending showed me a poster advertising the availability of a certain man to address congregations. very prominantly on the poster was the fact that the man used only the kjv. the idea that the kjv is the english bible is more prevalent than many might think. -- scott at brandeis "but god demonstrates his "the lord bless you, and keep you; own love for us, in that the lord make his face shine on you, while we were yet sinners, and be gracious to you; christ died for us." the lord lift up his countenance on you, and give you peace." -- romans 5:8 [nasb] -- numbers 6:24-26 [nasb] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20790">
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 are you suggesting that god supports genocide? perhaps the germans were "punishing" jews on god's behalf? any god who works that way is indescribably evil, and unworthy of my worship or faith. the bible does tell us that governments are ordained by god (romans 13). and furthermore, god foreknows everything that would happen. it is just to difficult for humans to graps with our limited minds, the inevitablity of the sucess of god's plan, and this is especially hard to grasp when we see governemnts doing evil. however, though they are doing evil (and we should not cooperate with them when they do such), it must be understood that what happens is what god wanted so as to lead to the final sucess of his plan to save as many souls from hell as is possible. in short, the slaughter in bosnia, though deplorable in the eyes of god (maybe, then again, they might be getting their just deserts now rather than later; there are plenty of examples of god killing people for their sins - onan in the old testmament for example, and annias and spahira in the new) is what he willed to happen so that his plan might be accomplished. but don't forget, it is not unbiblical for god to use one nation to execute his just judgement upon another. the romans were used to fulfill the chorus of "let his blood be upon our hands" of the crowd in jersualem. and chaldea was chastised by babylon, which got israel, which was inturn gotten by persia, etc. god does use nations to punish other nations, as the bible very clearly shows in the old testament. don't you remember the words of god recorded in daniel, "mene, mene, tekel, peres?" babylon had been weighed in the balance scales of god's justice, found severly wanting, and was thus given over to the persians as their due punishment for their rebellion. another exammple is the extirmination of the cannanites, ordered by god as the task of israel. the cannanites had been given their chance, found severly wanting, and the great judge, carried out his just sentence accrodingly. i could go on with more examples, but i see little need to do so, as my point is quite clear. two things need to be remembered at all times. 1) it is not up to us to question why god has ordered the world as he has. in his divine wisdom, he made the world as was best in his eyes, and like paul says in romans 9, the clay is not one to tlak back to the potter. 2) the message of jesus christ is as follows: "repent now, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." jesus christ did not allow any time for dilly-dallying - "let the dead bury the dead, come, follow me." there is not an infinite amount of time, rather christ is passing by right now, calling people to follow him and become fishers of men. he does not say, "well, alright, you can call me back in a week and see if my kingdom fits in with your plans." he said "follow me." his message is not "i'm just a sweety-pie who would never hurt a fly, you've got all the time in the world, and divine judgement, that's only a fairy tale." "our great god and savior" jesus christ (titus 2.5) is also the just and righteous judge of the world. and it is not up to the defendants in the trial to be questioning his entirely just sentences of either chastisement or mercy. d. andrew byler "does not he who ways the heart perceive [sin], and will he not judge men according to their works?" - proverbs 24.12 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20792">
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 then by that definition, i would be in a cell church only here at iu, not when the whole group gets together at indianapolis (>950 every week in attendance). joe fisher 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20793">
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 here are some notes about what the church is to be like and some helpful ideas about how to choose a church: colossians 1:15-18 a. jesus is the head of the body, the church b. you cannot say "yes" to jesus, but "no" to the church ephesians 2:19-22 a. the church is the family of god b. the church is based on the word of god only cornerstone=christ foundation= apostles=new testament prophets=old testament (see revelation 21:9-14) 1 corinthians 12:12-13 a. baptism is when we become a member of the church as for the question of denominations: a. the bible teaches that there is only one church from ephesians 4:4-6, romans 12:4-5, 1 corinthians 12:12-13 b. 1 corinthians 1:10-13 says that there should be no divisions in the church. there should be no following of personalities in the church (and in time, their writings) c. there are so many churches today because of a problem. 2 timothy 4:1-4 says that people will turn away from the truth and try to find a church that teaches a doctrine that suits their lifestyle hebrews 10:24-25 a. do not miss church b. purpose is to encourage each other, so we will remain faithful. involved on a relationship level in the church c. must come to all services another verse which is helpful is hebrews 3:12-15. the church should be encouraging daily, as it is their duty to do. of course, more standards apply: 1 timothy 4:16 people in the church should be watching their lives and doctrines to make sure they both live up to the word entirely (ie, disciples). acts 17:10-12 the pastor does not come close to the apostle paul (natural conclusion since the apostle paul talked with jesus directly face to face), so if the bereans, who were considered noble, didn't take paul at his word but checked out what he said with scripture to verify his statements, then church members are to do the same and verify the pastor's statements. if they are not verifiable or valid in light of other verses, then that group should be avoided as a church (would've made a wonderful suggestion to the waco group, especially in light of matthew 24). joe fisher 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20796">
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 i'd just like to repeat and emphasize that because someone else is trying to make you feel horrible and worthless does not mean that you should feel that way, although that's easier to say than believe sometimes. remember, god made you and loves you, so he must think you're something special. (excuse the trite language here.) also, the bully may just be someone who is mean for no reason -- not out of intentional mental torture. has anyone else been harassed? maybe they're just not talking about it. i would have emailed but my reactions weren't fast enough and the post i'm responding to didn't include your address. just take courage and remember that all of us on the net are rooting for you. take care! hand over hand noye@midway.uchicago.edu doesn't seem so much (vera noyes) hand over hand is the strength of the common touch drop me a line if you're in the mood - rush, "hand over fist" 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20797">
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 muslims, i fear have been given a lie from the fater of lies, satan. they need christ as do us all. stan toney stoney@oyster.smcm.edu my opinions are my own, you may borrow them just picked out this one point because it struck me.... why do you believe this? muslims believe in many of the same things that christians and jews believe; they believe jesus, while not the messiah, is a prophet. this seems to me to be much closer to christianity than other religions are. (then again i tend to be somewhat liberal about others' beliefs.) this also relates to the serbian "ethnic cleansing" question. i have been waiting for condemnations of this and have seen very few. how can we stand by and watch innocent people, even people whose beliefs we condemn, if this is the case (and don't get me wrong, the things fundamenalist muslims have to say about women make my blood boil), be tortured, raped (the stories about that made me physically ill), and killed? jesus loves all, not just those who love him back -- and he would advocate kindness toward them (in the hopes of converting them, if that's the way you want to put it) rather than killing them. i'm sorry i got off the subject here -- maybe i should have used a different title. i did need to get this off my chest, however. peace (shalom), vera shanti hand over hand noye@midway.uchicago.edu doesn't seem so much (vera noyes) hand over hand is the strength of the common touch drop me a line if you're in the mood - rush, "hand over fist" [i am also worried about this issue. i've made a posting under my own name earlier today. i do not much want to discuss moslem beliefs here. this isn't the right group for it. their beliefs about jesus appear to come as much from the koran as the bible. this means that while they honor him, what they think he did and stood for differs in many ways from christian beliefs about him. but moslem beliefs are an appropriate topic for soc.religion.islam. as i'm sure you know, many christians believe that you must accept christ in order to be saved. while stanley's comment appears to be anti-moslem, i would assume he would say the same thing about all religions other than christianity. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20799">
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 [deletia- sig] p.s. if you do sincerely believe that a god exists, why do you follow it blindly? do the words "question authority" mean anything to you? i defy any theist to reply. [deletia- formalities] i probably should let this pass, it's not worth the time, and it's not really intended for me. but i couldn't resist. a personal weakness of mine. jerkius kneeus. tragically incurable. the foundation for faith in god is reason, without which the existence of god could not be proven. that his existence can be proven by reason is indisputable (cf. my short treatise, "traditional proofs for the existence of god," and summa theologica). not so; i can prove that the existance of god is disputable by showing that people dispute it; this is easy: i dispute that god exists. simple. i missed your "traditional proofs" treatise, but the proofs i remember from the summa theologic (the 5 ways i think it was) were rather poor stuff. the ontological argument is about a billion times better, imho. i would think you'd want non-traditional proofs, considering the general failure of the traditional proofs: at least the ones i know of. (i am thinking of the ontological argument, the cosmological argument and the teleological argument. those are the ones traditional enough to have funny names, anyway.) now, given that god exists, and that his existence can be proven by reason, i assert that his commands must be followed blindly, although in our fallen condition we must always have some measure of doubt about our faith. why? this is the real question. so to discuss it, i'll assume god exists. otherwise, there is no heavenly authority to babble about. because god is the first cause of all things, the first mover of matter, the independent thing that requires nothing else for its existence, the measure of all that is perfect, and the essential being who gives order to the universe (logos). please show this is the case. i am familiar with the first cause argument, and i'll accept (for the sake of argument) that there is a first cause, even though i find some of its premices questionable. the rest you'll have to show. this includes that the first cause is god. i next assert that god is all good. got it. i deny that god is all good. so there. if this is so, then that which is contrary to the will of god is evil; i.e., the absence of the good. and, since god can never contradict himself, then by his promise of a savior as early as the protoevangelium of genesis 3:5, god instructs that because a human (adam) was first responsible for man's alienation from the source of all good, a man would be required to act to restore the friendship. thus god became incarnate in the person of the messiah. this isn't self-consistent: if humans must renew the relationship, then god (incarnate or not) can't do it. well, unless you think god is human. granted, god made himself 'human', but this is nonetheless cheating: the intent of the statement is clearly that man has to fix the problem he caused. god fixing it- even by indirect means- contradicts this. now this messiah claimed that he is the truth (john 14:6). if this claim is true, then we are bound by reason to follow him, who is truth incarnate. also, why assume said claim is true anyway? if *i* claim to be truth, are you bound by reason to follow me? you next seem to have a problem with authority. have you tried the united states marine corps yet? i can tell you first-hand that it is an excellent instructor in authority. undoubtably. do you mean to imply we should all obey the commands of the marines without question? you seem to imply this about god, and that the marines are similar in this respect.. if this is not what you are trying to say, they please explain what it is you are saying, as i have missed it. if you have not yet had the privilege, i will reply that the authority which is truth incarnate may never be questioned, and thus must be followed blindly. why? why not question it? even if it *is* truth, we cannot know this certainly, so why is it so irrational to question? perhaps we will thus discover that we were wrong. you assert that god is truth and we can't question truth. but i assert that god is not truth and anyway we can question truth. how is it my assertion is less good than yours? one may not deny the truth. i hereby deny 1+1=2. i hope you'll agree 1+1=2 is the truth. granted, i look pretty damn silly saying something like that, but i needed something we'd both agree was clearly true. now, you'll notice no stormtroopers have marched in to drag me off to the gulag. no heaven lighting bolts either. no mysterious net outages. i seem to be permited to say such things, absurd or not. example, when the proverbial apple fell on isaac newton's head, he could have denied that it happened, but he did not. the laws of physics must be obeyed whether a human likes them or not. they are true. they are certainly not true. at least, the ones newton derived are not true, and are indeed wildly inaccurate at high speeds or small distances. we do not have a set of laws of physics that always works in all cases. if we did, physics would be over already. science is all about questioning this sort of truth. if we didn't, we'd still follow aristotle. i'd generalize this a little more: if you want to learn anything new, you must question the things you know (tm). because you can always be wrong. therefore, the authority which is truth may not be denied. even presupposing that truth may not be denied, and may not be questioned, and that god is truth, it only follows that god may not be denied or questioned. not that he must be obeyed! we could unquestioningly disobey him. how annoying of us. but you have not connected denial with disobedience. - dan "no nickname" johnson and god said "jeeze, this is dull"... and it *was* dull. genesis 0:0 these opinions probably show what i know. 
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 i have been looking at some of the recent productions on homosexuality and decided that i was interested in videotaped copies of these. if anyone can help me out here, i would very much appreciate it. here is what i am looking for: * - "the gay agenda" produced by ty beeson's group the report. * - john ankerberg's recent series "understanding homosexuality and experiencing genuine change." * - james kennedy's special on homosexuality which aired this week, and the portion of the previous week's program which discussed "the gay agenda." i will not pay money for copies, since this is copyrighted material and that would be illegal. i will pay for return postage. if somebody can think of something they would desire in trade, please let me know and i'll see what i can do. oh, btw, i'm watching the march on washington right now on c-span. other than the fact that i'm generally repulsed by what i'm watching, i found one thing of interest. general david dinkins just finished speaking, and remarked that the new york city delegation consists of about 200,000 people. funny, i don't see 200,000 people out there, period. must've been quite the party scene last night. or maybe their exaggerations were just too much. sean patrick ryan****fsspr@aurora.alaska.edu or sean@freds.cojones.com 3215 oregon dr. #2, anchorage, ak 99517-2048****907-272-9184****fnord abortion stops a beating heart****disclaimer: i didn't inhale, either iditarod scoreboard 1993 - men 16, women 5****read alt.flame.sean-ryan [i don't suppose you'd be interested in hearing about the homosexual agenda from homosexual christians? these portrayals of the homosexual agenda are regarded by some as being somewhat akin to trying to understand fundamentalist christianity by looking at the branch dividians. you might also want to look at some outside evaluations of the groups claiming to change homosexuals. when our church (the presbyterian church (usa)) looked into this issue, even the conservative members of the committee were concerned about how real and long-lasting the changes were. i'll be interested to get reports from police and the press about the number of people participating today. presumably we'll have a better idea by tomorrow. --clh] 
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 can a theist be truly objective? can he be impartial when questioning the truth of his scriptures, or will he assume the superstition of his parents when questioning? i've often found it to be the case that the theist will stick to some kind of superstition when wondering about god and his scriptures. i've seen it in the christian, the jew, the muslim, and the other theists alike. all assume that their mothers and fathers were right in the aspect that a god exists, and with that belief search for their god. occasionally, the theist may switch religions or aspects of the same religion, but overall the majority keep to the belief that some "creator" was behind the universe's existence. i've known muslims who were once christians and vice versa, i've known christians who were once jewish and vice versa, and i've even known christians who become hindu. yet, throughout their transition from one faith to another, they've kept this belief in some form of higher "being." why? it usually all has to do with how the child is brought up. from the time he is born, the theist is brought up with the notion of the "truth" of some kind of scripture-- the bible, the torah, the qur'an, & etc. he is told of this wondrous god who wrote (or inspired) the scripture, of the prophets talked about in the scripture, of the miracles performed, & etc. he is also told that to question this (as children are apt to do) is a sin, a crime against god, and to lose belief in the scrip- ture's truth is to damn one's soul to hell. thus, by the time he is able to read the scripture for himself, the belief in its "truth" is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a matter of course. but it doesn't stop there. once the child is able to read for himself, there is an endeavor to inculcate the child the "right" readings of scripture, to concentrate more on the pleasant readings, to gloss over the worse ones, and to explain away the unexplainable with "mystery." circular arguments, "self-evdent" facts and "truths," unreasoning belief, and fear of hell is the meat of religion the child must eat of every day. to doubt, of course, means wrath of some sort, and the child must learn to put away his brain when the matter concerns god. all of this has some considerable effect on the child, so that when he becomes an adult, the superstitions he's been taught are nearly impossible to remove. all of this leads me to ask whether the theist can truly be objective when questioning god, hell, heaven, the angels, souls, and all of the rest. can he, for a moment, put aside this notion that god *does* exist and look at everything from a unbiased point of view? obviously, most theists can somewhat, especially when presented with "mythical gods" (homeric, roman, egyptian, & etc.). but can they put aside the assumption of god's existence and question it impartially? _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ * atheist _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * libertarian _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-individuality _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-responsibility _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jr. * and all that jazz... [this is ad hominem attack of the most basic kind. none of their statements matter -- they believe the way they do because they were brought up that way. of course there are atheists who have become theists and theists who have become atheists. rather more of the latter, which is not surprising given the statistics. it's hard to see how one could possibly answer a posting of this sort, since any answer could immediately be assumed to be just part of the brainwashing. that is, how can anyone possibly show that they aren't biased? --clh] 
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 the basic problem with your argument is your total and complete reliance on the biblical text. luke's account is highly suspect (i would refer you to the hermeneia commentary on acts). ... even if there was no independent proof that luke's account was valid, i find it strange that you would take the negation of it as truth without any direct historical evidence (at least that you've mentioned) to back it up. the assertion was made, unequivocally that no christian ever sufferred for their faith by believing in the resurrection. luke's account suggests otherwise, and in the absence of direct eyewitnesses who can claim that luke is mistaken, then i suggest that this unequivocal assertion is suspect. the problem here is that you have taken one peice of my response, without bothering to connect it with the other parts. i have repeatedly noted that one needs to take the problematic historcity of acts and then examine the work of john dominic crossan and burton mack. once you have taken the time to examine recent developments in biblical scholarship, i think you will grasp more clearly what i am saying. [i think the original claim may have been somewhat more limited than this. it was an answer to the claim that the witnesses couldn't be lying because they were willign to suffer for their beliefs. thus it's not necessary to show that no christian ever suffered for believing in the resurrection. rather the issue is whether those who witnessed it did. i do agree that the posting you're responding to shows that there can be liberal as well as conservative dogmatism. --clh] certainly this is an issue as i think the situation in waco shows most clearly. if all that is required is that people are willing to die for a belief for it to be true, then surely david koresh is the son of god. no, the spurrious arguement that the resurrection had to be true for people to be willing to die must be put to rest. the other problem is that it is so monologocentric. even if the resurrection was a big deal (which it doesn't seem to have been for either q, thomas, or even john to a certain degree) there are a lot of other things which the early christians could have been doing together that would have been worth dying for. it is my belief that even the idea of a mixed race community, which brought down regional/national boundaries in the name of koinonia could have been enough for people to be willing to die. radical communties do that (e.g. jonestown, waco, warsaw, etc) but my original point was that roman persecution (which is the only persecution we have documented proof of) was not about whether a carpenter came back from the dead. such a claim was not unique nor particularly abhorent to the roman or greek mind. my point is that avoidance of military and civic duty (i.e. emperor worship) would have been much more problematic -- which has nothing to do with the resurrection at all. when nero used christians as human torches to light up his dinner party it wasn't because the believe in a risen savior, it was because they were supposedly involved in incest and cannablism. the argument that christians were martyred for the resurrection just cannot stand up to critical examination. 
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 i'd be fascinated to see such evidence, please send me your article! on the negative side however, i suspect that any such simplistic link abstinence-education => decreased pregnancy, contraceptive-education => increased pregnancy is false. the us, which i'd guess has one of the largest proportion of "non-liberal" sex education in the western world also has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates. (please correct me if my guess is wrong.) i've sent the article. in terms of the group discussion, i wanted to point out that "non-liberal education" (head in the sand) is not the same as "abstinence education". we had "non-liberal education" regarding drugs when i was a kid in the 60's, which didn't do us a lot of good. but "abstinence education" regarding drugs has proven effective, i think. joe kellett jkellett@netcom.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20808">
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 down these distinctions. in him there is neither jew nor greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female. if moslems do not know him, we may preach to them, but we don't kill as a muslim (spelled sometimes as moslem) i must say that muslims strong ly believe in jesus. refered in islamic text as eesau(as) jesus ==> j - esu - s ===> esu (pronounced eee-saw) yah we knew him well. ideally, this war should not even be. and even in a time of war, our goal is peace. we should try to refrain from viloating the peace of others as then if we do violate, we will not have peace in ourselves. i don't like this war eaither, it is a conflict of territory. croats, muslims, and serbs lived together before in peace. the rallying point is 'race'. and im sure that there is a general out there who wouldn't mind being a president. mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu [from a christian perspective, moslem ideas about jesus look rather seriously erroneous. i've generally tried to avoid discussions of islam in this group, since soc.religion.islam is the right place for that. thus i don't much want to go into detail. i will simply note that moslems reject most of what christians regard as the most essential facts about jesus. so at least from a christian perspective moslems don't know jesus. again, this is no justification for christians to hate moslems or to kill them. i agree with you that this war should never be. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20810">
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 jesus was born a jew. we have biblical accounts of both his mother's ancestry and his father's, both tracing back to david. it seems reasonable to assume, therefore, that jesus was semitic. as an interesting aside, jesus' being semitic makes him neither "white" nor "black," and in some sense underscores the point made earlier that his color was not important, it was his message, his grace, and his divinity that we should concentrate finally, i would direct anyone interested in african involvement in the church to the account of the conversion of the ethiopian eunuch in acts chapter 9 (i think it's chapter 9). this is one of the earliest conversions, and the eunuch, treasurer to the queen of the ethiopians, was definitely african. because "ethiopia" at that time indicated a region just south of egypt, many also speculate that this man was not only the first african christian, but the first black christian as well. god bless, charles campbell 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20812">
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 those with bibles on hand can give the exact chapter & verse... at the time jesus told peter that he was the "rock", he said whatever you hold true on earth is held true in heaven, and whatever you don't hold true won't be true in heaven. therefore, with respect to marriage, the ceremony has to be done by an rc priest. no big parties required. just the priest, the couple and witnesses. "divorce" is not allowed. but anullments are granted upon approval by either the bishop or the pope (not sure if the pope delegates this function). maybe i'm a little tired but i can't seem to follow the logic here. if whatever is held true on earth is held true in heaven how is it that a priest (rc only apparently) is required. in fact if i read the next verse correctly (matthew 18:19) i understand that for a marriage to take place only two are required to agree on earth touching one thing and it shall be done. mark ashley |disclaimer: my opinions. not harris' marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com | the lost los angelino | [unfortunately i haven't been able to find any completely precise statements about what is needed. (as usual, the current edition of the catholic encyclopedia is frustratingly vague.) i do know that the priest is viewed as a witness, and thus in some sense would not be required. however part of the purpose of formal marriage is to avoid any ambiguity about who has and has not taken on the commitment. the community provides support to marriage, and in cases of problems are involved in helping to make sure that the people carry out as much of their commitment as possible. thus marriage must be a public commitment. the presence of a priest is required for a regular marriage. where i'm not clear is exactly where the boundaries are in exceptional cases ("valid but irregular"). ne temere (1907) says that no marriage involving a catholic is valid without a priest (according to the oxford dictionary of the church), and they imply that the new canon law retains this, but i'd rather see a more recent and authoritative source. note that while a catholic priest is required for catholics, the catholic church does recognize marriage between baptized non-catholics as valid without a priest. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20813">
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 to what follows, our moderator has already answered the charge of arrogance more ably that i could have done so, so i will confine myself to answering the charge of illogic. in a previous article, eugene.bigelow@ebay.sun.com (geno) says: if i don't think my belief is right and everyone else's belief is wrong, then i don't have a belief. this is simply what belief means. unfortunatly, this seems to be how christians are taught to think when it comes to their religion. this is how everyone in the western intellectual tradition is, or was, taught to think. it is the fundamental premis "a is not not-a". if a thing is true then its converse is necessarilly false. without this basic asumption theology and science as we know them are alike impossible. we should distinguish the strong and weak meanings of the word "believe", however. the weak sense means i am not sure. "i believe tom went to the library." (but he could have gone to the track). the strong sense means i am so certain that i use it as a basis of thought. "i believe that nature operates according to certain fundamental laws." (despite the fact that nature *appears* capricious and unpredictable). christian belief is of the strong kind. (though christians may well hold beliefs of the weak kind on any number of theological and ecclesiological topics.) some take it to the extreme and say that their religion is the only one and if you don't accept their teachings then you won't be "saved". note that these are two separate ideas. most hold the first view, but the majority do not hold the second. is is again a matter of pure logic that if christanity is true, then hinduism (for example) must necessarilly be false, insofar as it contradicts or is incompatible with, christaianity. (and, as a matter of *logic*, vice versa.) it takes quite a bit of arrogance to claim to know what god thinks/wants. it is arrogant to claim to know what *anyone* thinks or wants, unless they have told you. christians believe god has told us what he thinks and wants. especially when it's based upon your interpretation of a book. most christians do not base their belief on the bible, but on the living tradition of the church established by christ and guided constantly by the holy spirit. the bible is simply the written core of that tradition. the logic in the above statement is faulty in that it assumes two people with differing beliefs can't both be if depends what you mean by differing. if i believe tom is six feet tall and you believe he weighs 200 pounds, our beliefs differ, but we may both be right. if i believe tom is six feet tall and you beleive that he is four foot nine, one of us, at least, must be wrong. it's all about perception. no two people are exactly alike. no two people perceive everything in the same way. i believe that there is one truth. call it god's truth, a universal truth, or call it what you will. i don't believe god presents this truth. i think it is just there and it's up to you to look for and see it, through prayer, meditation, inspir- ation, dreams or whatever. just because people may perceive this truth differently, it doesn't mean one is wrong and the other is right. thus you believe that there is a single truth but that no human being can find it. you assert that anyone who believe that we can find absolute truth is mistaken. in short, you believe that anyone who does not share your belief on this point is wrong. qed. as an example, take the question, "is the glass half empty or half full"? you can have two different answers which are contradictory and yet both are correct. so, for your belief to be true, does not require everyone else's belief to be wrong. here i begin to suspect that your real difficulty is not with the knowability of truth, but simply with language. saying that the glass is half empty is not a contradiction of the statement that it is half full: it is the same fact expressed in different words. (the whole point of this phrase is to illustrate the different ways the pessimist and the optimist express the *same* fact.) it is, of course, quite true that different people may express the same belief in different words. it is also true that they may fail to understand each other's words as expressions of the same belief and may argue bitterly and believe that they are miles apart. great scisms have occurred in just this way, and much ecumenical work has been done simply in resolving differences in language which conceal agreement in belief. this does not mean, in any sense, that all beliefs are equally valid. since some of the beliefs people hold contradict some other beliefs that other people hold, after all obfuscations of language and culture in the expression of those beliefs have been stripped away, some of the beliefs that some people hold must, **necessarilly** be false, and it is neither arrogant nor illogical to say so. if i believe x and you believe y we may both be correct, but if y is equivalent to not-x then one of us is wrong and as long as we hold our respective beliefs, we must each regard the other as in error. mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20815">
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 [faq and darius' response deleted] [it's not clear how much more needs to be said other than the faq. i think paul's comments on esteeming one day over another (rom 14) is probably all that needs to be said. i accept that darius is doing what he does in honor of the lord. i just wish he might equally accept that those who "esteem all days alike" are similarly doing their best to honor the lord. i am myself an sda and i am in total agreement with what darius has to say. i also worship on saturday to honor the lord. your mention of "[esteeming] all days alike" imo has to do with the fast days observed by the jews. but no matter how you interpret that passage, i do accept your worship on sunday as being done in honor of the lord, in contrast with what many of my fellow sda believers may believe. to me, though, the bible overwhelmingly points to saturday as the day to be kept in honor of creation and of god's deliverance of the israelites from egyptian bondage. to those who would attempt to point out that my observance of saturday is being legalistic, this is simply not the case. rather, keeping saturday allows me a full day to rest and contemplate god's goodness and grace. however i'd like to be clear that i do not think there's unambiguous proof that regular christian worship was on the first day. as i indicated, there are responses on both of the passages cited. similarly with 1 cor 16:2. it says that on the first day they should set aside money for paul's collection. now if you want to believe that they gathered specially to do this, or that they did it in their homes, i can't disprove it, but the obvious time for a congregation to take an offering would be when they normally gather for worship, and if they were expected to do it in their homes there would be no reason to mention a specific day. the idea was introduced to me once that the reason paul wanted the corinthians to lay aside money for the collection on the first day of the week was because that was when they received their weekly wages. paul wanted them to lay aside money for the collection as first priority, before spending their money on other things. i do not have any proof in front of me for this though, although it would explain why they would lay aside money in their homes instead of a meeting. so i think the most obvious reading of this is that "on the first day of every week" simply means every time they gather for worship. i think the reason we have only implications and not clear statements is that the nt authors assumed that their readers knew when christian worship was. it would seem to me that you assume that the christians in the nt regularly worshipped on the first day. i assume that the christians in the nt regularly worshipped on the seventh day. but i agree with you that we only have implications because the authors did assume the reader knew when worhip --mark 
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 : i would like to get your opinions on this: when exactly does an engaged : couple become "married" in god's eyes? some say that if the two have : publically announced their plans to marry, have made their vows to god, and : are unswervingly committed to one another (i realize this is a subjective : qualifier) they are married/joined in god's sight. the way i read scripture, a couple becomes married when they are *physically* married, i.e. when they first have sexual intercourse. e.g. the end of genesis 2 (quoted from memory) ``for this reason, a man shall leave his parents and be joined to his wife, and they will become one flesh'' (jesus also quotes this scripture referring to marriage). if you read through genesis in particular, you will often come across the phraseology: ``[man] lay with [woman], and she became his wife''. this implies that she became his wife when they lay together, i.e. at the point of intercourse. compare this with jewish tradition: joseph, when he heard that mary was pregnant, had it in mind to divorce her quietly -- but mary and joseph were *betrothed*, not married. i.e., they were in a binding relationship (which required a divorce to get out of), but *marriage* would not occur until mary and joseph went to bed together. compare with christ and the church (ephesians 5, revelation 19): the church is described as the ``bride'' of christ, but the *marriage* of the lamb takes place when jesus returns. i.e., we are in a binding love-relationship with jesus, but we are still looking forward to the time when the marriage will take place. i see this as the spiritual equivalent of sexual intercourse, because it represents the most intimate fellowship possible between man and god. in summary, engagement should be honoured as a binding relationship, but it is not marriage. a civil ceremony is not marriage either. marriage occurs at the point when the betrothed couple go to bed together. (i don't mean to demean the civil or church ceremony -- ours was great! i don't mean to be too pedantic.) historically, i think i am correct in stating that the civil ceremony (i.e. a marriage recognised by the state), has only been around in the west since napoleon, who introduced it to keep tabs on the people (although i'm ready to be corrected on that point!) this view obviously raises some questions: what about those who have had sex with one or more partners, without considering marriage. are those people also ``married''? if it is true that marriage occurs at the point of intercourse, is it necessary to be married in the eyes of the state? (i would say yes, because this honours the laws of our nations in the west. although it is not illegal to sleep together though unmarried in most western countries, i believe that it is god- honouring to proclaim our marriage to the state and to our friends before actually consummating our marriage. its to do with our being salt and light, and also to do with how people will perceive us; i.e. it is culturally insensitive to declare yourself married without going through a civil ceremony.) michael davis (cs89mcd@brunel.ac.uk) and hast thou slain the jabberwock? come to my arms, my beamish boy! 
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 responding to the moderator: choosing what to believe and rely on are important areas of personal sovereignty. what bothers me is when others suggest that, in these matters of faith, their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others. it follows from this that god must give everyone the same revelation of truth, and thus anyone who comes to a different conclusion is intentionally choosing the wrong path. this is the arrogance i see; a lack of respect for the honest conclusions of others on matters which are between them and god. [it is certainly reasonable to ask for some humility about our own ability to know the truth. there are also different paths in some areas of practice. but i'd like to see more clarification about what you mean when you reject the idea of saying "their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others." if something is true, it is true for everyone, assuming that the belief is something about god, history, etc.... yes, i agree. what i'm trying to point out is that, in matters of faith (i.e. tenets which are not logically persuasive), one may be convinced of the truth of certain things through, for instance, personal revelation. and its certainly fine to share that revelation or those beliefs with others. and i don't think that its arrogant, persay, to accepts matters of pure faith as truth for oneself. where i think the conflict arises is in assuming that, where disagreements on beliefs arise, all others *must* have been given the same truth, and that god must reveal his truth to everyone in such a way that all would honestly agree. i think this can lead to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you are being sinful or dishonest; that they are rejecting something they *know* to be truth because it is inconvenient for them, or because they wish to spurn god. i would say that this is equivalent to assuming that *all* truths one holds are universal and absolute. and the problem i see with this is that it negates the individuality of humans and their relationships with god. this does not mean there is no absolute truth; just that some areas of doctrinal disagreement may be areas where god has not established or revealed that truth. comments, criticism welcome... alvin@ucsu.colorado.edu [i agree with you. --clh] 
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 not honoring our wives can cause our prayers to be hindered: prayers may not be hindered. i peter 3:7 one interpretation i've heard of this verse is that it refers to the sin of physically abusing one's wife. the husband is usually physically stronger than his wife but is not permitted to use this to dominate her. he must honor her as his sister in christ. this would therefore be an example of a specific sin that blocks prayer. jayne kulikauskas/ jayne@mmalt.guild.org i would be a bit more specific in looking at this verse in regard to 'blocking' prayer. i have trouble thinking that god would allow anything to block our access to him in prayer, especially if we have sinned and are praying for forgivenenss. i can see, however, how our prayer life might be hindered by our sin, if we are concentrating on what is causing the sin or what has happened, we may not be thinking about prayer, thus our prayers are 'hindered' by our own actions. but i don't think anything can 'block' the transmission, or reception of prayer to god. shalom, len howard 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20822">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20822" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 in a previous article, mhsu@lonestar.utsa.edu (melinda . hsu) says: well the argument usually stops right there. in the end, aren't we all just kids, groping for the truth? if so, do we have the authority to declare all other beliefs besides our own as if i don't think my belief is right and everyone else's belief is wrong, then i don't have a belief. this is simply what belief means. where does the authority for a belief come from? nowhere, for a belief is itself authoratative. if i produce authority for a belief, where will i find authority for my belief in the legitimacy of the authority. in short, the mind has to start somewhere. (by the way, the majority of christians, i.e. catholics, believe in the authority of the church, and derive the authority of the bible from its acceptance by the church.) mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20823">
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 a section of richard badenas' book, "christ the end of the law, romans 10.14 in pauline perspective." the section i have is on the contextual setting and meaning of romans 9-11. in addition, there are 111 endnotes. since the file is so long, and because of other reasons, i will take requests for the article personally. of course, i believe badenas' insights to be true, and, quite damaging to the traditional augustinian/calvinist view. ted kalivoda (tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu) university of georgia, athens ucns/institute of higher ed. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20825">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20825" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i have been told that i seem to be very smug in my post. i appoligize if anyone felt this way. i did not at all desire to come across in that way. i was trying to express that i didn't understand his logic and that i wished him the best in his life. in christ's love, bryan whitsell 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20826">
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 i realize i'm entering this discussion rather late, but i do have one question. wasn't it a reagan appointee, james watt, a pentacostal christian (i think) who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were "living in the last days" and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway? for the record: on february 5, 1981, at a house of representatives interior committee meeting, rep. james weaver (d, ore), asked watt whether "you agree that we should save some of our scenic resources for our children, not just gobble them up all at once?" watt's answer was: < absolutely. that is the delicate balance the secretary of the < interior must have -- to be steward for the natural resources < for this generation as well as future generations. i do not < know how many future generations we can count on before the < lord returns. whatever it is, we have to manage with a skill < to have the resources needed for future generations. my source is a column by rowland evans and robert novak on the op-ed page of the washington post for friday 21 august 1981. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20828">
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 probably a tired old horse, but... maybe with a slightly different twist. i wanted to know if there are any good english-language texts for learning ancient hebrew, and how these compare with german educational texts qualitywise, if anybody has an idea. i can't figure out if i should buy one here for later study or wait until i get back to the u.s. something i find interesting about studying theology in germany is the fact that the students get their ancient language-learning out of the way early [i'm not a theology student, but i spend a lot of time with such folks] in their careers. they take the first two years or so to just do greek and latin and hebrew [possibly aramaic, too--who knows]. what's it like at divinity schools or seminaries in the states? is there a lot of language instruction done? i really don't have a basis for comparison. regards, phil philip sells is anything too hard for the lord? k053730@hobbes.kzoo.edu --gen. 18:14 [for better of worse, we don't have the tradition of classical education in the u.s., so generally if a seminary believes students should know greek, they have to teach it. it's common for seminaries to require at least a semester each of hebrew and greek, though of course more is required for serious scholarship. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20829">
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 [some stuff deleted] fortunately for the convenience of us believers, there is a class of questions that can never be reduced away by natural science. for example: why does the universe exist at all? must there be a "why" to this? i ask because of what you also assume about god-- namely, that he just exists, with no "why" to his existence. so the question is reversed, "why can't we assume the universe just exists as you assume god to "just exist"? why must there be a "why" to the universe?" [remainder of message deleted] pardon me for replying to only a portion of your message :) the reason we can say "god just exists" and can't say "the universe just exists" is because the universe is a natural realm and is subject to natural laws in general and the law of cause and effect in particular. that is, we observe in nature that every cause has an effect, and every effect was produced by a cause. the existence of the natural realm, as an effect itself, cannot be its own cause; it must therefore have a supernatural cause. god, on the other hand, is a supernatural being, and is therefore not subject to such natural laws as the law of cause and effect. as a supernatural being, god's eternal existence does not imply a previous cause the way the existence of a physical, natural cosmos does. thus, those who believe in the supernatural have a valid basis for accepting the existence of uncaused phenomena such as the eternal god, whereas those who deny the existence of the supernatural are faced with the dilemma of a physical universe whose very nature shows that it is not sufficient to explain its own existence. this is, of course, an oversimplification of a complex topic, but i just wanted to clarify some important differences between the supernatural (god) and the natural (the universe), since you seem to mistake them as being 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20830">
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 we are _just_ animals. we need sleep, food, and we reproduce. and we die. i agree we need sleep & etc, but i disagree we are _just_ animals. that statement is a categorical negative; it's like saying there are _no_ polkadoted elephants. it may be true but one would have to be omniscient to know for sure. rob steele in coming to understand anything mit lincoln laboratory we are rejecting the facts as they 244 wood st., m-203 are for us in favour of the facts lexington, ma 02173 as they are. 617/981-2575 c.s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20831">
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 well, then, buddhism, confucianism, taoism, hinduism, judaism, zoerasterism, shintoism, and islam should fit this bit of logic quite nicely... :-) all have depth, all have enduring values, thus all must be true... yep. there's truth in all those religions, even in science. christianity doesn't claim to know it all. it does claim certain things are true though that contradict other religions' truth claims. so they can't all be true. rob steele in coming to understand anything mit lincoln laboratory we are rejecting the facts as they 244 wood st., m-203 are for us in favour of the facts lexington, ma 02173 as they are. 617/981-2575 c.s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20834">
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 listowner: i have sent this to mr anderson privately. post it only if you think it of general interest. here is a copy of something i wrote for another list. you may find it relevant. a listmember asks: what makes common-law marriages wrong? a common-law marriage is not necessarily wrong in itself. there is nothing in the bible (old or new testament) about getting married by a preacher, or by a priest (jewish or christian). and in fact jewish priests have never had any connection with weddings. there is a common notion that the marriage is performed by the clergyman. in fact, the traditional christian view (at least in the west) is that the bride and groom are the ministers of the marriage, and that the clergyman is there only as a witness. however! the essential ingredient of a marriage is mutual commitment. two persons are considered to be married if and only if they have bound themselves by mutual promises to live together as husband and wife, forsaking all others, till death do them part. the reason why those who have reason to be concerned about who is married to whom have always insisted on some kind of public ceremony is in order that society, and the couple themselves, may be clear about whether a commitment has been made. suppose that we do away with the public ceremony, the standard vows, etc. instead, we have a man and a woman settling down to live after a year or so, the man says to the woman: hey, honey, it was great while it lasted, but i think it's time to move on. she says: what are you talking about? he says: i am leaving you and looking for someone prettier and she says: but you can't. we are married! he says: what are you talking about? we never got married. she says: i remember distinctly what you said to me the night we first made love. you said: "my love for you is as deep as the ocean, as eternal as the stars. as long as i live, i am yours, utterly and completely. when i lie on my deathbed, my last feeble breath will utter your name. my..." he says: oh that! that was just rhetoric. just poetry. when a man is in a romantic mood, he is bound to say all kinds of silly things like that. you mustn't take them literally. and that is why you have an insistence on a formal ceremony that is a matter of public record. the church insists on it, because it is her duty (among other things) to give moral advice, and you cannot give a man moral advice about his relations with a woman if you have no idea who is married to whom, if anybody, and vice versa. the state insists on it, since the state has a concern with property rights, with child care and support, and therefore needs to know who has made what commitments to whom. prospective fathers-in-law insist on it, because they don't want their daughters seduced and abandoned. prospective spouses insist on it, because they want to make sure they know whether what they are hearing is a real commitment, or just "poetry." and persons making vows themselves insist on making them formally and publicly, in order that they may be clear in their own minds about what it is that they are doing, and may know themselves that this is not just rhetoric. this is the real thing. hence the insistence on a formal public explicit avowal of the marriage commitment. the church goes further and insists that, when christians marry, a clergyman shall be present at the wedding and record the vows on behalf of the church, not because it is impossible to have a valid wedding without a clergyman, but in order to make sure that the couple understand what the christian teaching about marriage is, and that they are in fact promising to be married in a christian sense. the church also prefers a standard marriage vow, and is wary of letting couples write their own vows, for much the same reason that lawyers prefer standard terminology when they draw up a will or a contract. certain language has been repeatedly used in wills, and one can be sure how the courts will interpret it. try to say the same thing in your own words, and you may find that the probate judge's interpretation of them is not at all what you intended. similarly, the church prefers to avoid endless debates about whether "you are my main squeeze" and "i am here for the long haul" do in fact cover the same territory as "forsaking all others" and "till death do us part." this topic has come up on the list before. (is there any topic that hasn't?) one listmember was asking, "if a couple love each other and are living together, isn't that marriage in the eyes of god?" eventually someone asked, "in that case, what is their status if they break up? is that the moral equivalent of getting a divorce? are they in a relationship that god forbids either of them to walk out on? " the original questioner said: "good grief, i never thought of that!" in fact, there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that someone who says, "we don't need a piece of paper or a ceremony in front of a judge or a preacher in order to show that we love each other," is trying to have it both ways -- to have the advantages of marriage plus the option of changing his mind with a minimum of at this point someone may say, "none of this applies to me and my mate. we are quite clear on the fact that we have assumed a lifelong commitment, 'for better or worse, forsaking all others, till death us do part.' so in our case, no ceremony is needed." to this my reply would be: the reason for requiring a driver's license is to keep dangerous drivers off the road. what is wrong in itself is not the existence of unlicensed drivers, but the existence of dangerous drivers. however, testing and licensing drivers is an obvious and reasonable means of pursuing the goal of reducing the number of dangerous drivers on the road. therefore the state rightly makes and enforces such laws, and you the citizen have a positive moral obligation to refrain from driving without a license no matter how much of a hotshot behind the wheel you think you are. back to the original question. we have a listmember who knows a couple who have been living together for around 20 years. he asks: at what point did they stop fornicating and start being married? i answer: at the point, if any, where they both definitely and explicitly accepted an obligation to be faithful to each other, for better or worse, as long as they both lived. if they have accepted such an obligation, what are their reasons for not being willing to declare it in front of, say, a justice of the peace? james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20835">
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 i'm interested if anyone out here can point me towards a review of the following book in any scholarly christian journal, whether it be conservative or liberal, protestant or catholic. _the_lost_years_of_jesus_ (documentary evidence for jesus' 17 year journey to the east), by elizabeth clare prophet. supposedly this is a theory that was refuted in the past, and she has re-examined it. i thought this was just another novel book, but i saw it listed as a text for a class in religious studies here. also, the endorsements seem to come from some credible sources, so i'm wondering if scholars have reviewed it (or anyone on the net, for that matter). rob butera | ece grad student | "only sick music makes money today" rice university | houston, tx 77054 | - nietzsche, 1888 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20836">
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 frank, i got your mailing on early historical references to christianity. i'd like to respond, but i lost your address. please mail me. -scott oser 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20842">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20842" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 hello, i am about to embark on a bible study on acts. i have online bible software with me. i would like to know the the background of the authors of its various topics articles and about the author of the people's new testament. i need to know how realible is the articles in the online bible software. specifically (for your convenience) i want to know about the : 1. darby translation ( i have never heard of this one) j.n. darby was one of the founders of the "plymouth brethren" and an early supporter of dispensationalism. f.f. bruce highly approved of his translation. he also translated the bible into several other 2. young's literal translation (i have also never heard of) this was from the same fellow who did young's concordance, which was a standard reference work, similar to strong's concordance. 3. the realiability of the hebrew/greek lexicon i believe that these just follow standard reference works. 4. the authors (from which denomination etc) of the articles in the topics modules. some are by larry pierce ("brethren"), some are by baptists, and i think that thompson (of chain reference fame) was presbyterian) 5. the realiability of the treasury of scripture knowlege ( as i have never heard of too) another standard reference work that has been around for decades. a new version was just released and is available through christian book distributers. 6. who are the commentators, scofield and b.w. johnson who wrote the scofield reference bible and the people's new testament respectively c.i. scofield was the creator of the scofield reference bible. for many people (but not me), this is the study bible. the notes are strongly 7. the realiability of the strong numbers. these are probably the most accurate strong's numbers available. shawn abigail abigail@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20844">
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 now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices, as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days. although the israeli government will give the permission to start, i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen. brothers and sisters, the time is at hand. our redemption is drawing near. look up! how is a scriptural levitical priesthood resumed? are there any jews who can legitimately prove their levite bloodline? if i am not mistaken, the jewish family names cohen, kahn, etc. are considered to be legitimate indicators of descent from aaron. the family names levi, levene, etc. are considered to be legitimate indicators of descent from levi. the main legal issue is the purification of the priesthood, which is supposed to involve finding the ashes of of the red heifer last used for this purpose 2000 years ago. steven stovall stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu (310) 825-7307 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20846">
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 the last sentence is ironic, since so many readers of soc.religion.christian seem to not be embarrassed by apologists such as josh mcdowell and c.s. lewis. the above also expresses a rather odd sense of history. what makes you think the masses in aquinas' day, who were mostly illiterate, knew any more about rhetoric and logic than most people today? if writings from the period seem elevated consider that only the cream of the crop, so to speak, could read and write. if everyone in the medieval period "knew the rules" it was a matter of uncritically accepting what they were told. bill mayne [this may be unfair to lewis. the most prominent fallacy attributed to him is the "liar, lunatic, and lord". as quoted by many christians, this is a logical fallacy. in its original context, it was not. --clh] c. s. lewis has taken a couple of pretty severe hits in this group lately. first somebody was accusing him of being self-righteous and unconvincing. now we are told that we christians should be embarrassed by him. (as well as by josh mcdowell, about whom i have no comment, having never read his work.) anyone who thinks that c. s. lewis was self-righteous ought to read his introduction to the problem of pain, which is his theodicy. in it, he explains that he wanted to publish the book anonymously. why? although he believed in the argument he was presenting, he did not want to seem to presume to tell others how brave they should be in the face of their own suffering. he did not want people to think that he was presenting himself as some kind of model of fortitude, or that he was anything other than what he considered himself to be -- "a great coward." ofm has adequately handled the question of whether we ought to be embarrassed by lewis' liar/lunatic/lord argument (which, by the way, is part of a *much* bigger discourse.) i would just like to add that, far from being embarrassed by lewis, i am in a state of continual amazement at the soundness and clarity of the arguments he presents. - phil - hey, we're talking about the phone company, here. the phone company doesn't have opinions on this kind of stuff. this is all me. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20848">
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 4. who exactly is "the lord"? "god" or jesus christ? john 1:1 says (nkjv - the little green gideon someone forced on me one day) "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god." the word refers to jesus christ so from this john declares that god and jesus are one. therefore, "the lord" refers to both. also, david in the psalms refers to both god in heaven and the coming messiah as his lord. once again this refers to god and jesus. 5. what is the definition of a "truly religious" person? should he/she not swear/curse? does it say anything about this in the bible? some of the most "truly religious" people i've known have not been christians and some of the greatest christians i've known have been truly irreligious. however, to answer your question: the bible speaks of this in many places, a previous post to james is a good one. another is psalm 15: "lord, who may abide in your tabernacle? who may dwell in your holy hill? he who walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart he who does not backbite with his tongue, nor does evil to his neighbor, nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; i whose eyes a vile person is despised, but he honors those who fear the lord; he who swears to his own hurt and does not change; he who does not put out money at usury, nor does he take a bribe aginst the innocent. he who does these things shall never be moved." rob coffey "indeed the safest road to coffey@cptc1.neep.wisc.edu hell is the gradual one- the (if you send mail to cptc2 gentle slope, soft underfoot, i'll never read it) without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." -- screwtape the day techwood meets the wrecking ball the world shall rejoice. but i'll have lost a former home. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20849">
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 i must have missed the postings about waco, david koresh, and the second coming. how does one tell if a second coming is the real thing, unless the person claiming to be it is obviously insane? i'm not saying that david koresh is the second coming of christ. how could somebody who breaks his word be the second coming? koresh did promise that he would come out of his compound if only he was allowed to give a radio broadcast. he didn't. still it seems to me that he did fool some people. and, from my meagre knowledge of the bible, it seems that christians have been hard on the jews of christ's day for being cautious about accepting somebody that their religious authorities didn't accept as the messiah. so i was surprised that nobody had discussed the difficulty of wanting to be early to recognize the second coming while, at the same time, not wanting to be credulously believing just anybody who claims to be god. [mark 13:21 and then if any one says to you, 'look, here is the christ!' or 'look, there he is!' do not believe it. mark 13:22 false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. mark 13:23 but take heed; i have told you all things beforehand. mark 13:24 "but in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, mark 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. mark 13:26 and then they will see the son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. my understanding of jesus' answer is that, unlike his first coming, which was veiled, the second coming will be quite unmistakeable. he's telling us not to be misled by the other things that have to happen before his second coming -- the actual second coming will make his power openly visible. by the way, from koresh's public statement it's not so clear to me that he is claiming to be christ. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20852">
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 i'm compiling a bibliography on religious perspectives on esotericism, hermeticism, gnosticism, mysticism, occultism, alchemy and magic, and am interested in sources that others have found particularly interesting and insightful. i'm especially interested in medieval works, such as _the chemical wedding of christian rosenkreutz_ and arthurian legends. please feel free, too, to send personal opinions on any of the above, pro or con or anywhere in between. thanks much. stephen twelker twelker@ide.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20854">
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 all of the arguments concerning the sabbath ought to make the point pretty clear - anyone outside of the catholic or orthodox oranglican or monophysite churches ourght to worship on saturday if they are really sola scriptura. otherwise, they are following a law put into effect by the church, and only the above chruches really recognize any power of the chruch to do so. andy byler [you will note that nothing in the faq said anything about the church establishing or changing a law. the argument against the sabbath is that it is part of the ceremonial law, and like the rest of the ceremonial law is not binding on christians. this argument is based on paul's letters, acts, and in a more general sense, jesus' teachings. further, most people argue that scripture shows worship occuring on sunday, and paul endorsing it. i understand that these points are disputed, and do not want to go around the dispute one more time. the point i'm making here is not that these arguments are right, but that the backing they claim is scripture. accepting the principle of "sola scriptura" does not commit us to obeying the entire jewish law. acts 15 and paul's letters are quite clear on that. i think even the sda's accept it. the disagreement is on where the bible would have us place the line. by the way, protestants do give authority to the church, in matters that are not dictated by god. that's why churches are free to determine their own liturgies, church polity, etc. if you accept that the sabbath is not binding on christians, then the day of worship falls into the category of items on which individual christians or (since worship is by its nature a group activity) churches are free to --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20855">
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 james sledd asks: 1. what is the nature of eternal life? 2. how can we as mortals locked into space-time conceive of it? 2a. if the best we can do is metaphor/analogy, then what is the best metaphor? c s lewis's essay the weight of glory deals with this question. i recommend it enthusiastically. you might also read the chapter on "heaven" in his book the problem of pain. he gives a fictional treatment in his book the great divorce. i have found all of these very helpful. you might also be helped by the treatment in dante's divine comedy. heaven occupies the last third of the poem, but i cannot imagine reading it other than from the beginning. i urge you to use the translation by dorothy l sayers, available from penguin paperbacks. james kiefer 
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 darren> in an earlier article, i explained that what many people find darren> arrogant about christians is that some christians profess darren> absolute certainty about their beliefs and doctrines. darren> in short, the problem is that no matter how good your sources darren> are, if any part of your doctrines or beliefs rest on your own darren> thinking and reasoning, then those doctrines are suspect. the point that darren raises is a very lutheran viewpoint. while reason is a gift from god, it is also infected by sin. yet we do not reject reason entirely--and neither, i think, does darren. we need reason, as darren himself has pointed out, to comprehend god's revelation of himself in the bible. but reason alone is not sufficient to comprehend and believe the word. we need, first and foremost, faith. for "the sinful mind is hostile to god. it does not submit to god's law, *nor can it do so*" (romans 8:7). luther accepted scripture as the sole means of revelation ("sola scriptura"), but accepted the necessity of the use of reason (with faith) in comprehending that revelation. yet luther also said, regarding baptism, "but mad reason rushes forth, and, because baptism is not dazzling like the works which we do, regards it as worthless." (large catechism, fourth part, baptism). to make matters more complicated, luther was the sort of theologian that many people would describe as an `absolutist'. i've seen him described as a `take no prisoners' theologian. we might conclude, given these observations, that luther was inconsistent or mad. and surely at least some have come to that conclusion. but it might be useful to recall that jesus was also called mad. and peter felt compelled to defend himself and the apostles against a charge of drunkenness on pentecost. so we as christians ought to be careful about rejecting luther (or others) as mad. rather, we should imitate the bereans, who examined the scriptures every day to see if what paul said was true (acts 17:11). the basis for the confidence with which luther, peter, paul, and many others preached the gospel was not just reason, but faith and the holy spirit. this is not faith divorced from reason, but a faith that guides, informs, and uses reason. the spirit enables us to know the truth and to proclaim it boldly. god does not want us to preach the message that "i think that jesus might have risen from the dead" but rather "i know that my redeemer lives!" (job 19:25). the christian does not side with pilate in saying "what is truth?" but rather follows christ, who said, "in fact, for this reason i was born, and for this i came into the world, to testify to the truth. everyone on the side of truth listens to me" (john 18:37). we can know the truth because god has promised us that we can know the truth. jesus said, "if you hold to my teachings, you are really my disciples. then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (john 8:31,32). the proverbs urge us "buy the truth, and do not sell it." (pr 23:23). the psalmist prayed "do not snatch to word of truth from my mouth" (ps 119:43). evidently he believed that the word of truth was in fact `in his mouth'. yet we do indeed appear arrogant if our claim to the truth is motivated by self-glorification. but if we present the truth as the teachings of scripture, revealed by the spirit, and not our own invention, and if we stand ready to be proved wrong on the basis of scripture, as luther did, then we are not arrogant, but humble. we should humbly trust in god's promise of truth, just as we trust in his promise of forgiveness. rexlex> it is only because of god's own revelation that we can be rexlex> absolute about a thing. darren> but how far does that get you? once god's revelation stops, darren> and your own reasoning begins, possibility for error appears. i agree that we must make a distinction between the clear teachings of scripture, and the products of our own reason--even when such reasoning is based on scripture. however i think i would draw the line of distinction more `reasonably' :-) and less `academically' than you would. darren> for example, let's suppose that our modern bible translations darren> include a perfect rendering of jesus words at the last supper, darren> and that jesus said, exactly, "this is my body." darren> we'll presume that what he said was totally without error and darren> absolutely true. what can we be certain of? not much. darren> at the moment he stops speaking, and people start darren> interpreting, the possibility of error appears. did he mean darren> that literally or not? we do not have any record that he darren> elaborated on the words. was he thinking of tran- or con- darren> substantiation? he didn't say. darren is almost at the point of making a very lutheran statement about the lord's supper. the lutheran approach is to say that if jesus said, "this is my body," then that is what we should believe. other interpretations are rejected simply because they are not taught in scripture. recall that jesus' words do not stand alone on this subject. we also have paul's words in 1 corinthians 11:17-34,--in which he passed on to us, what he received from the lord. in particular he said, "for whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the lord's death until he comes." by these words we should believe that the bread that we eat in the lord's supper really is bread (as well as the lord's body)--as our senses in fact tell us. does this *prove* that tran-substantiation is false? i suppose someone could say that paul spoke metaphorically of the lord's body as bread, simply because that is the way the body appears when we eat it. but this thought is found nowhere in scripture. so we reject it. thus the primary reason for rejecting tran-substantiation is not that we can prove it false, but that it is simply not found in scripture. [side remark] i've been told that the lutheran doctrine on real presence is con-substantiation. but it has been non-lutherans who have told me this. we tend not to use the word. i almost think that this is used more by professors of comparative religion, who need labels to compare catholic, lutheran and reformed teachings on the lord's supper. but almost every church wants to call their own teaching "real presence" because that was the traditional teaching of the church. [end side remark] darren> when christians speak as if they believe their own reasoning darren> can never lead them astray -- when we implicitly claim that we darren> are infallible -- the non- christians around us rarely believe darren> that implicit claim. witnessing is hardly going to work when darren> the person you are talking to believes that you are either too darren> foolish to recognise your own limits, or intentionally trying darren> to cover them up. this is precisely why christians should not rely on rationalizations in their witnessing. it is far better to take the approach, "i'd like to show you what scripture says. you decide for yourself whether to believe it or not." darren> `rexlex' suggested that people read _he is there and he is not darren> silent_, by francis schaeffer. i didn't think very highly of darren> it, but i think that mr schaeffer is grossly overrated by many darren> evangelical christians. somebody else might like it, though, darren> so don't let my opinion stop you from reading it. darren> if someone is interested in my opinion, i'd suggest _on darren> certainty_, by ludwig wittgenstein. as long as we're trading references, i'd like to suggest dr. siegbert becker's paperback, "the foolishness of god: the place of reason in lutheran theology," published by northwestern publishing house. this book was based on becker's doctoral thesis at the university of chicago. david wagner "not by might, nor by power, a confessional lutheran but by my spirit," says the lord almighty. zechariah 4:6. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20863">
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 |> can anybody tell me the basic reasons for holding a belief that there |> is only jesus? and vice versa: the foundations for the trinity? |> bjorn i'd love to know how "jesus only" proponents would answer questions like: -who is this "father" jesus keeps referring to? why does he call himself "the son"? -why does he pray to the father, and not to himself? -why does he emphasize that he does his father's will, and not his own? if he was doing his own will, what kind of example is that? should we follow it? -when he says he has to return to the father, who is he going to? -when he says he does this in order that the comforter, the holy spirit might come, who might that be? -if he claims that the coming of the holy spirit is such a blessing that it's worth his leaving us and returning to the father, what can that mean if there is no holy spirit? -why doesn't the best known christian prayer begin "our saviour, who art in heaven," rather than "our father?" do they have answers to these questions that are even plausible? (further entertaining queries are left as an exercise to the reader.) |david r. tucker kg2s drt@athena.mit.edu| [there may be some misunderstanding over terms here. i believe "jesus only" originally was in the context of baptism. these are folks who believe that baptism should be done with a formula mentioning only jesus, rather than father, son, and holy spirit. this may have doctrinal implications, but as far as i know it does not mean that these folks deny the existence or divinity of the father. i'm not the right one to describe this theology, and in fact i think there may be several, including what would classically be called monophysite or arian (two rather different views), as well as some who have beliefs that are probably consistent with trinitarian standards, but who won't use trinitarian language because they misunderstand it or simply because it is not biblical. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20865">
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 [several people were involved in trying to figure out who first used the phrase "god-shaped hole". --clh] "there is a god shaped vacuum in all of us" (or something to that effect) is generally attributed to blaise pascal. i believe this is a just another of way of expressing the basic truth "all things were created by him and for him." (emphasis mine) col. 1:16 , rev. 4:11. if you and i have been created for god, naturally there will be a vacuum if god is not our all and all. in fact, the first chapter of collosians brings out this status of christ, that he should have the preeminence. when you life is alligned with him, and you do his will, then the vacuum is filled. marc chamberland mchamberland@violet.uwaterloo.ca 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20866">
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 there was a recent discussion of dungeons and dragons and other role playing games. since there is a lot of crossover between gamers and science fiction and fantasy fans, i will mention that i am the editor and publisher of radio free thulcanra, a christian-oriented science fiction fanzine. it is not a christian magazine with a special interest in science fiction. it is a science fiction fanzine with a special interest in christianity. gaming is not a major topic of discussion but it has come up in some letters. (no, there are no arguments about whether d&d is satanic. people who think it is are not likely to be reading rft.) anyway, i am now working on the april issue. i will send a sample copy to any reader of soc.religion.christian who requests it. it is printed on paper, so requests should include a snail-mail address. marty helgesen bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu "what if there were no such thing as a hypothetical situation?" 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20871">
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 pardon me if this is the wrong newsgroup. i would describe myself as an agnostic, in so far as i'm sure there is no single, universal supreme being, but if there is one and it is just, we will surely be judged on whether we lived good lives, striving to achieve that goodness that is within the power of each of us. now, the complication is that one of my best friends has become very fundamentalist. that would normally be a non-issue with me, but he feels it is his responsibility to proselytize me (which i guess it is, according to his faith). this is a great strain to our friendship... sorry to disappoint you, but i'm afraid your friendship is in danger. perhaps you should examine in yourself why as such a good friend, you are unwilling to accept this imortant part of your friends life? why do you call into question his faith? your friend has changed, he has found something that fills a need in his life. you need to decide if you are still his friend, whether you can accommodate his new life. it sounds as if you are criticizing him for a fundamental belief in the bible, yet you are quick to reveal that your fundamental belief that it is superstition. perhaps if he knew you at least took him seriously, that you at least took an interest in the light he has found, that you at least tried to understand what has become a special part of his life, you could together decide to become fundamentalists, respect each others differences and remain friends, or part ways. maybe even if you stuck it out with him, you could help him to un-convert. of course, if you go in with that attitude he will surely see through your intentions and begin to resent you. i happen to be a person very tolerant of fundamentalists, because i know that the idea of a simple black and white approach to life is appealing. i don't happen to share the beliefs of fundamentalists, but i am not offended by their prosyletizing. i had a few good conversations with some witnesses who came to my door. i didn't switch my beliefs, but for those at home who maybe need a friendly face to invite them somewhere, the witnesses provide a wonderful service. you may have been conditioned to believe that religion is unimportant and witnessing is obnoxious, but why? are you afraid you might be converted and become one of them, that you will be swept up in fundamentalism, that you will become a weirdo. friendship's a two-way street. you must respect your friend, all of him, including his beliefs, if you want the friendship to continue. joe moore 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20876">
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 there is some controversy in my denomination as to what authority is vested in the pastor. i am still forming my opinion. i am solicing opinions, and references for what that is, how much, and how it should be used. as a general reference, i would not exclude responses from different denominations based on biblical teachings, but you have to understand our church is independent, protestant and likely to be much different from those that follow ecclesiastical authority in the church. we may need to discuss the roles of deacons and elders. thanks for your replies. | "answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." | | "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." | | (proverbs 26:4&5) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20877">
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 i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist, but definitely do not believe in the christian god. the recent discussion about atheists and hell, combined with a post to another group (to the effect of 'you will all go to hell') has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men. as a catholic, i was told that a jew, buddhist, etc. might go to heaven, but obviously some people do not believe this. even more see atheists and pagans (i assume i would be lumped into this category) to be hellbound. i know you believe only god can judge, and i do not ask you to, just for your opinions. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20878">
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 my last article included this quote: "if any substantial number of [ talk.religion.misc ] readers read some wittgenstein, 60% of the postings would disappear. (if they *understood* some wittgenstein, 98% would disappear. :-))" -- michael l siemon this quote seems a little arrogant, don't you think? there is a convention called a `smiley', which looks like this: :-) . it is supposed to look like a sideways smiley-face, and indicates that the preceding comment is supposed to be funny. and, i'll note that i have participated on talk.religion.misc for over five years -- i'd say mr siemon was not too far off. 8^) in the meat of his reply, mr boundary serves up an excellent example of what i meant by "there is no way out of the loop". i wrote that human brains "are infested with sin", and can be trusted only in limited circumstances. i would beg to differ with you here. the properly-formed conscience can be trusted virtually all the time. which just moves the problem back one level: how do you tell if your conscience is properly formed? the only way to tell is to presuppose that you are capable of judging the formed-ness of your own conscience. in other words, you can only be sure that your conscience is `properly formed' if you assume that your evaluation can be trusted. assuming your conclusions saves you a lot of time, i'll grant, but it's not a valid way of reasoning. unless you are infallible, your judgements about your own thinking cannot be certain. therefore, it is not possible to be certain your conscience is `properly formed'. (whatever that is supposed to mean.) mr boundary then gives another paradigm example of the problem: now you have hit on the purpose of the church. it is by necessity the infallible interpreter of divine revelation. without the church, christianity would be nothing more than a bunch of little divisive sects. the church is `by necessity' the infallible interpreter of divine revelation? how do you know? presumably, you believe this because of some argument or another -- how do you know that the argument contains no mistakes? you write: therefore, although our minds are finite and susceptible to error, our competence in arriving at inductive insights gives confidence in our ability to distinguish what is true from what is not true, even in areas not subject to the experimental method. but there is a huge difference between `confidence in our ability to distinguish what is true from what is not true' and `infallible'. i am confident about a lot of things, but absolute certainty is a very long way from `confident'. this discussion is about the arrogance of claiming to be absolutely certain (really, go check the subject line). saying you are absolutely certain is significantly different than saying you are confident. when you say that you are confident, that invites people to ask why. except in very limited circumstances, when you say that you are absolutely certain, it invites people to dismiss you as someone who does not have any idea of his own fallibility. i have yet to meet anyone who believed in a knowably-infallible source of truth who would admit the possibility of errors in his reasoning. all of them -- every last one -- has claimed that he was himself infallible. the result has been to convince me that they had no idea what was going on. darren f provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu [this particular discussion may not be entirely relevant to the original criticism. i get the feeling that the original poster regarded as arrogant the very idea that there are right and wrong answers in religion, and that the difference can have eternal consequences. when i say that i think there is a hell and that he is at least in significant danger of ending up there, i will admit that -- as you say -- the reasoning processes i used to reach this are fallible. thus at least in principle i could be wrong. but these basic facts are clearly enough taught in the bible that i think it's unlikely that i'm misinterpreting it. (in order to get this level of confidence, i've tried to frame my statement sufficiently carefully as to sidestep a number of the more controversial issues. i haven't, for example said that all non-christians will definitely end up in hell, and i haven't attempted to describe hell in any detail.) i have a feeling that my view is going to be regarded as arrogant and intolerant even though i acknowledge that i'm fallible and so there's some chance i'm wrong. don't get me wrong -- i think there are a lot of genuinely arrogant christians, and often criticism of us is justified. but in at least some cases i think the criticisms constitute blaming the messenger. if the universe is set up so that there are eternal consequences for certain decisions, it's not my fault -- i'm just telling it the way i think it is. you may think god is immoral for setting things up that way. it's one of the critiques of christianity that i find it most difficult to respond to. but it's not arrogance for me to tell what i think is the truth. --clh] 
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 are the serbs doing the work of god? hmm... i've been wondering if anyone would ever ask the question, are the governments of the united states and europe not moving to end the ethnic cleansing by the serbs because the targets are can/does god use those who are not following him to accomplish tasks for him? esp those tasks that are punative? james sledd no cute sig.... but i'm working on it. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20881">
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 praise god! i'm writing everyone to inform you that i have been accepted to the doctor of psychology program at fuller theological seminary in pasadena, ca. i've been working long and hard to try to get in there and have said many hours of prayer. i'm very excited for this opportunity, but also very nervous about it. i'd appreciate the prayers of the readers of this group for my preparation for school this summer and for my career as a graduate student. i'd also appreciate any information any of the readers of this group might have about fuller, pasadena, or california in general, like good places to have fun, good churches to check out, or anything else that might be good for me to know. also, if anyone knows of any foundations that might have funding or scholarship money available, please let me know! of course, if you wish to make a personal contribution.....:) the contract for my current job is over at the end of april. i'll be taking a couple classes at ut this summer and then i'll be moving to pasadena. hopefully, i'll be able to get net.access next fall, although fuller doesn't have it itself. i've enjoyed the interesting discussions and i commend everyone for their earnest search to please god. thanks to our moderator for providing such a wonderful service and in doing a great job of running this news may god bless you all. vaya con dios, mi amigas y amigos. paul conditt internet: conditt@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu applied research phone: (512) 835-3422 fax: (512) 835-3416/3259 laboratories fedex: 10000 burnet road, austin, texas 78758-4423 university of texas postal: p.o. box 8029, austin, texas 78713-8029 austin, texas <----- the most wonderful place in texas to live ttt ttt ttt ttttttttttttt texas tech lady raiders tt ttt tt 1992-93 swc champions ttt 1992-93 ncaa national champions 
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 [anecedotal material which ultimately shows that...] but from my experience, the modern jew is not known for his proselytism. a rabbi once told me that theres is a talmudic tradition that someone who wanted to convert to judaism was to be turned away three times. if they continue then they were accepted. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20884">
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 : [i have some qualms about postings like this. you might want to : engage in a bit more conversation with joel before deluging : someone who doesn't expect it with cards. --clh] i'd suggest that more than _some_ qualms are in order. without knowing anything about the situation, it is impossible to evaluate the appropriateness of writing. some folks will check, others with more zeal than time may not. imho, requests of this nature should be made only for oneself or for someone who knows and approves of the idea. otherwise, it is intrusive and disrespectful of the individual. revdak@netcom.com 
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 cloak yourself in god's sustaining and abiding love. pray, pray, pray. pray for your brother, that he will assume the godly role that is his. pray for your sister-in-law, the what ever is driving her to separate your brother and herself from the the rest of the family will be healed. pray for god to give you the peace in the knowledge that you may not be able to 'fix' it. from your description it would appear that it will require devine intervention, and the realization by your brother as to what his responsibilities are. seek godly counsel from your pastor, or other spiritually mature believer. know always that he is akways there as a conforter, and will give you wisdon and direction as you call on 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20890">
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 if the papacy is infallible, and this is a matter of faith, then the pope cannot "be wrong!" if, on the other hand, this is not a matter of faith, but a matter of church law, then we should still obey as the pope is the legal head of the church. in other words, given the doctrine of infallibility, we have no choice but to obey. this is a primary problem in the church today. what you are saying is more or less heresy. you might call it "infallibilism". it's the idea that the pope is always right in everything he says or does. this is virtually all over the place, especially in this country. the pope is only infallible under certain very specific and well-defined conditions. when these conditions are not met, he can make mistakes. he can make *big* mistakes. a couple historical examples come to mind. bishop robert grosseteste was perhaps the greatest product of the english catholic church. at one point during his career, the reigning pope decided to install one of his nephews in an english see. bishop grosseteste said that this would happen over his dead body (though maybe not in so many words; you have to treat popes with respect, even when they are wrong). the problem was that this nephew would just collect the income of the see, and probably never set foot there. this would deprive the people of the see of a shepherd. bishop grosseteste was quite right in what he did! another example is that of pope john xxii, a pope of the middle ages. he decided that souls that were saved did not enjoy the beatific vision until the last judgement. he decided that this should be a defined doctrine of the church. though he didn't quite get around to defining it. now there's no way this is compatible with catholic doctrine. the pope's doctrine was criticised by many in the church. he went so far as to put a number of his opponents in jail, even. in the end, he had to admit his mistake. shortly before he died, he recanted. his successor made the exact *opposite* idea a dogma of the if you consult any of the great catholic theologians who treat of such subjects, such as st. robert bellarmine (a doctor of the church), you will find detailed discussions of whether the pope can personally fall into heresy or schism. the teaching of all such theologians is that the commands of a pope must be resisted if they are to the detriment of the catholic faith. a pope's authority is given for the purpose of building up the catholic church. commands in conflict with this purpose have no legal *or* moral force. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20891">
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 a similar analogy might be a medical doctor who believes that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of a child whose parents are jehovah's witnesses and so have conscientious objections to blood transfusion. the doctor's efforts to persuade them to agree to a blood transfusion could be perceived to be arrogant in precisely the same way as christians could be perceived to be arrogant. the truth or otherwise of the belief that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of the child is irrelevant here. what matters is that the doctor believes it to be true, and could be seen to be trying to foce his beliefs on the parents, and this could well be perceived as arrogance. let me carry that a step further. most doctors would not claim to be infallible. indeed, they would generally admit that they could conceivably be wrong, e.g. that in this case, a blood tranfusion might not turn out to be necessary after all. however, the doctors would have enough confidence and conviction to claim, out of genuine concern, that is is necessary. as fallible human beings, they must acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong. however, they would also say that such doubts are not reasonable, and stand by their convictions. virgilio "dean" velasco jr, department of electrical eng'g and applied physics cwru graduate student, roboticist-in-training and q wannabee "bullwinkle, that man's intimidating a referee!" | my boss is a "not very well. he doesn't look like one at all!" | jewish carpenter. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20892">
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 hi everyone, i'm a commited christian that is battling with a problem. i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' you fools, do you still think that just believing is enough?' now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god, according to romans that person is still saved by there faith. my $.02 - yes and no. i do not believe the above scenario is not possible. either they are believing and living (in at least some part) led by god, else they are not. believing (intellectually, but waiting(?)) is not enough. especially important to remember is that no one can judge whether you are so committed, nor can you judge someone else. i guess the closest we can come to know someone's situation is listening to their own statements. this can be fallible, as is our sense of communion one with another. but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him (i.e. doesn't know him - condemned) so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn' t make any attempt to live by the bible. regarding this passage, we need to remember that this is a letter to a church (at laodicea), people who are of the body of christ. (rev.3:14-16) he talks about their works. a translation could say that he says their lack of concern makes him sick (to the point of throwing up). now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do) as taught in romans, but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being ' spat-out' right, saving is by faith alone, except that faith does not come alone, if you catch the two meanings. i can offer the explanation that jesus would that we were either "on fire for him" or so cold we knew we were not in his will and thus could be made aware of our separation. this is admonishment for his children, not eternal | "answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." | | "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." | | (proverbs 26:4&5) 
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 please, define cell church. i missed it somewhere in the past when this was brought up before. in a cell church, the fundamental building block is the "cell group" -- a small group of no more than 15 believers. the small groups are responsible for the ministry of the church: evangelism and discipleship. the emphasis is on relationships, not on programs, and both the evangelism and the discipling are relationship-based. this will probably raise more questions than it answered, but that's it in a nutshell. * jon reid * he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep * * reid@cs.uiuc.edu * to gain what he cannot lose. - jim elliot * 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20894">
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 we also cannot fail to note the intense suffering a devastation which has been wrecked on our world because of christians -- who were certain they were following christ. from captialist who have polluted the enviorment in strict obedience to the gensis command to subdue the earth, to nazi's who have "justly" punished the jews for the killing christ (as well as the other progroms), the innocent women who were burned alive in accordance with "you shall not allow a witch to live", the moslems who were killed in the crusades, the god-fearing men destroyed by the inquistion. the religious wars in spain, france, england, etc. christianity has undoubtedly caused the most suffering and needless loss of life by individuals whose certainity that they were following the instructions therein, was unquestionable. there is much to grieve. very interesting, but i also believe that you have presented a misleading argument. christianity is not the cause of the massacres and horrific injustices that you relate, rather they are the fault of people who misunderstand jesus christ's message, and modify it to suit their own beliefs and aims, rather than alter their ambitions to be more in line with those presented as desirable in the new testament. with every truthful and good message that carries authority or implied authority, comes the inevitable fact that some (many?) people will understand it in a distorted way, with inevitable consequences. the bible's message is that we are to love all people, and that all people are redeemable. it preaches a message of repentance, and of giving. unfortunately, all people have deceitful hearts, and are capable of turning this message around and contorting it in sometimes unbelievable ways. this is also a fundamental christian doctrine. one of the problems is that you look at the world through the eyes of western history. i think that you will find many, many cases of massacres that were instigated by people who never claimed they were christian. i am not saying this to justify the massacres that were, but i am merely pointing you to a tendency which is present in humans already. consider the world without christianity. i doubt that we would have the same freedoms in the countries in which we live, if it wasn't for the peaceful doctrines of jesus christ. perhaps we would even be confronted by a very harsh religion (i won't name any here, though one comes to mind) which would not even allow us the freedom of speech to debate such point the blame at inherent human tendencies of thirst for power, greed and hatred. please don't point the blame at a message which preaches fundamental giving and denial, in love for others. yours in christ, andrew mcveigh p.s. i believe that a line of questioning like you presented is, strangely enough, compatible with becoming a christian. certainly christianity encourages one to question the behaviour of the world, and especially christians. i praise god for jesus christ, and the fact that we can doubt our beliefs and still come back to god and be forgiven, time and time andrew mcveigh 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20895">
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 i'm writing a paper on the role of the catholic church in poland after 1989. church concerning the abortion-law, religious education at schools, there was an article on clari.news.religion in the last few days about a polish tribunal decision. it said that crucifixes and religious classes in public schools were okay; and that children who did not want to take religion class could not be forced to take an ethics class as a substitute. larry henling lmh@shakes.caltech.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20899">
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 and the two simplest refutations are these: (1) what impact? the only record of impact comes from the new testament. i have no guarantee that its books are in the least accurate, and that the recorded "impact" actually happened. i find it interesting that no other contemporary source records an eclipse, an earthquake, a temple curtain being torn, etc. the earliest written claim we have of jesus' resurrection is from the pauline epistles, none of which were written sooner than 20 years after the supposed event. first, off i'd say that the impact if right before your eyes! 8-) that we are even discussing this is a major impact in and of itself. further, the early church bears testimony to the impact. (2) it seems probable that no one displayed the body of jesus because no one knew where it was. i personally believe that the most likely explanation was that the body was stolen (by disciples, or by graverobbers). don't bother with the point about the guards ... it only appears in one gospel, and seems like exactly the sort of thing early christians might make up in order to counter the grave-robbing charge. the new testament does record that jews believed the body had been stolen. if there were really guards, they could not have effectively made this claim, as they did. of course they knew where it was. don't forget that jesus was seen by both the jews and the romans as a troublemaker. pilate was no fool and didn't need the additional headaches of some fishermen stealing jesus' body to make it appear he had arisen. since jesus was buried in the grave of a man well know to the sanhedrin, to say that they didn't know where he was buried begs the question. now, you say that you think that the disciples stole the body. but think on this a moment. would you die to maintain something you knew to be a deliberate lie!? if not, then why do you think the disciples would!? now, i'm not talking about dying for something you firmly believe to be the truth, but unbeknown to you, it is a lie. many have done this. no, i'm talking about dying, by beheading, stoning, crucifixion, etc., for something you know to be a lie! thus, you position with regards to the disciples stealing the body seems rather lightweight to me. as for graverobbers, why risk the severe penalties for grave robbing over the body of jesus? he wasn't buried with great riches. so, again, this is an argument that can be discounted. that leaves you back on square one. what happened to the body!? ihl, gene the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill, the campus office for information technology, or the experimental bulletin board service. internet: launchpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 [again, let me comment that the most plausible non-christian scenario, and the one typically suggested by sceptics who are knowledgeable about the nt, is that the resurrection was a subjective event, and the empty tomb stories are a result of accounts growing in the telling. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20901">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20901" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 "suppose you were part of the `christian consipracy' which was going to tell people that christ had risen. never mind the stoning, the being burned alive, the possible crucifixion ... let's just talk about a scourging. the whip that would be used would have broken pottery, metal, no one was ever flogged, beaten, burned, fed to the lions, or killed in any other way because of a belief in the resurrection - sorry to disappoint you. i think you are vastly oversimplifying things. we know that early christians suffered totures because of their witness to christ. for example: act 5:40 his speech persuaded them. they called the apostles in and had them flogged. then they ordered them not to speak in the name of jesus, and let them go. act 5:41 the apostles left the sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the name. it appears that the jewish rulers of that time had a particular aversion to even hearing jesus's name. act 5:28 "we gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "yet you have filled jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood." finally, the first apostle's death, james of zebedee was certainly not by rome's hand any more than the first martyr stephen. the idea of resurrection is one which can be found in a host of different forms in the religions of antiquity. the problem was not the resurrection which was a mediorce issue for a tiny fragment of the jewish population the problem was that if one believed in the resurrection, then one must believe in jesus as truly being the son of god and what he stood for and preached during his ministry on earth. that would have been extremely difficult for some people, especially those that had plotted to kill him. john g. ata - technical consultant | internet: ata@hfsi.com hfs, inc. va20 | uucp: uunet!hfsi!ata 7900 westpark drive ms:601 | voice: (703) 827-6810 mclean, va 22102 | fax: (703) 827-3729 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20902">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20902" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 in a previous article, phs431d@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au () says: to demand scintific or rational proof of god's existence, is to deny god's existence, since neither science, nor reason, can, in their very nature, prove anything. are you asking us to believe blindly? you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question "does god exist?" i.e. self-awareness and reason. if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth. does god want us to be like that? i am asking you to believe in things not visible. i don't know if this is believeing blindly or not. i'm not sure how blindness comes into it. i do not deny reason, indeed i insist upon it, but reason only draws conclusions from evidence. if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on the evidence of the five physical senses, then you cut reason off from any possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere (beyond the rather provocative, if inconclusive, conclusion that the physical sphere is not self explanatory). christians claim that they have received a different kind of evidence, which they call faith, and which is a gift of god. that is, this evidence is the evidence of a thing which chooses to reveal or hide itself. the evidence of the senses cannot tell you is such a ting exists. reasoning on the evidence of the senses won't help either. but christians do reason of the evidence of faith, and do claim that this evidence is wholly consistent with the evidence of the other senses, and indeed, that the evidence of these other senses is part of god's revelation of himself to us. it is not necessarilly the case however that knowledge of a god must come through this route. there may be other senses than the physical ones providing evidence of non-physical realities. (there may, of course, be physical realities of a type for which we have no corresponding senses, for all we know.) these senses, if they exist, may provide valid evidence for reason to work on. and, as with all senses, these senses may be impaired in some people, that is, they may be spiritually blind. in this sense, belief in god becomes an act of sight, and it is disbelief which is blind. you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything. however, if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone. and since we can only use faith, why is one picture of "god" (e.g. hinduism) any less valid than another (e.g. christianity)? faith, as i have said, is not opposed to reason, it is simply a new source of evidence on which reason may operate. it is clear that human beings have many systems for explaining the evidence of the physical senses, and similarly there are many systems for explaining the evidence provided by faith. religious believers in general, and christians in particular, use reason to help sift through the evidence to come to a clearer understanding of the evidence provided by faith. science claims, with good reason, to be the most valid system for explaining the physical universe, and christianity claims, also with good reason, to be the most valid system, possessed of the best evidence, for explaining gods revelations of himself to man. if you doubt that christians use reason, read this newsgroup for a while and you will see rational debate aplenty. mark baker | "the task ... is not to cut down jungles, but aa888@freenet.carleton.ca | to irrigate deserts." -- c. s. lewis 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20905">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20905" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i think it was lewis who said that in a wedding, it's the principals that marry each other; the church and the state are present merely as [this is not just lewis -- it's a summary of standard catholic theology. however this doesn't mean that the presence of those witnesses is optional, except in odd situations like the standard desert island. --clh] i originally wrote to the person who asked this question personally, but decided to post the information i had on the topic. i spoke to the pastor of my parish (catholic) recently, by coincidence, on this subject. his explaination was that while it is possible for a couple to marry without the presence of a priest, it is important to have it recognized by the church as soon as it is possible. because the church recoginizes itself as a community of believers, members of the church, to some degree, are to be held accountable to each other. to be less hypothetical than that mythical couple on the desert island, there are many places in the world that do not have priests availible for marriages on a regular basis. therefore, couples get married without the priest being present, but get the priest to testify to their marriage when one comes through the area. i remember a religion teacher in high school saying that the marriage ceremony is not for the benefit of the couple as much as it is for the benefit of the community. thus, married couples have some responsibility to the community to stay married, as divorce sets a bad example for the community. also, the couple has vowed to become one with one another--the community should be able to rely on that couple to be as one. while couples may marry without witnesses, they may not get anulments without a priest present. an anulment is simply an admission of the church that what they had declared a marriage was not, in fact, a marriage at all, for whatever reason. so don't start getting married in the back seat of a station wagon and giving yourselves anulments a half-hour later!! i tend to agree with the response back there that said couples become married as soon as they consumate their marriage, but i would add that couples should consider their marriage consumated if they have sex, whether or not they intended to be married, assuming they were both willing partners to the sexual act. the couple must be prepared to raise any children they may have as a result of that sexual act with the benefit of both parents. sex is a commitment, i believe, in god's eyes. but i'm digressing.... god be with you, 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20910">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20910" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i thought everyone who died simply went to sheol. the notion of going to heaven is a christianization based on those parts of the nt that speak of an immaterial afterlife. -richard l. goerwitz goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet goer@midway.uchicago.edu rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer where in the bible is there *any* teaching about an immaterial afterlife? i was always taught that both the o.t. jews and the n.t. christians would have found the notion incomprehensible--as do i. don't we christians believe in the resurrection of the body? or do you mean by material simply the stuff made of the 100+ elements that we know and love too much? stan armstrong. religious studies dept, saint mary's university, halifax, n.s. armstrong@husky1.stmarys.ca | att!clyde!watmath!water!dalcs!armstrng 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20911">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20911" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 many catholics will decide to side with the pope. there is some soundness in this, because the papacy is infallible, so eventually some pope *will* straighten all this out. but, on the other hand, there is also unsoundness in this, in that, in the short term, the popes may indeed be wrong, and such catholics are doing nothing to help the situation by obeying them where they're wrong. in fact, if the situation is grave enough, they sin in obeying him. at the very least, they're wasting a great opportunity, because they are failing to love christ in a heroic way at the very time that he needs this joe; your logic excapes me. if the papacy is infallible, and this is a matter of faith, then the pope cannot "be wrong!" if, on the other hand, this is not a matter of faith, but a matter of church law, then we should still obey as the pope is the legal head of the church. in other words, given the doctrine of infallibility, we have no choice but to obey. bob van cleef peace -0- be revc@garg.campbell.ca.us the land of garg bbs unto /|\ you bbs (408) 378-5108 [you might want to look at the faq on infallibility. the doctrine on infallibility does not say that the pope is always right. all catholic theologians acknowledge that there have been a number of occasions when the pope was wrong. there appear to be two aspects to infallibility. one is a general concept that in the long run the church is protected from serious error. however this does not mean that it's impossible for it to take wrong turns at one time or another. the more specific concept of papal infallibility is that in very specific circumstances a papal statement can be known to be infallible. however a relatively small fraction of statements meet those criteria. this does not absolve catholics from the duty to obey even "ordinary" teachings of the pope. however only a few teachings are made in a way that is explicitly infallible. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20913">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20913" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 hi i am a sociology student and i am currently researching into young offenders. i am looking at the way various groups of children are raised at home. at the moment i am formlulating information on discipline within the christian home. please, if you are a parent in this catagory can you email me your response to the following questionaire. all responses will be treated confidentially and will only be used to prepare 1. ages & sexes of children 2. do you spank your kids? 3. if so how often? 4. do you use an implement to spank with? 5. if you do not spank, what method of discipline do you use? 6. your age? 7. your location 8. while under the age of 16 did you ever commit a criminal 9. how ere you disciplined as a kid thank you in advance for any reply you can make. please e-mail your replies rather than post them on the newsgroup [i hope it is obvious that responses to this question are likely to have serious problems when used for research purposes. our readers are not likely to be a random sample of christians, and this form does not contain enough information to act as a stratified sample. perhaps someone who is familiar with research methods might want to correspond with him. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20914">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20914" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 [insert deletion of paul's and aaron's discourse on anger, ref galatians 5:19-20] i don't know why it is so obvious. we are not speaking of acts of the flesh. we are just speaking of emotions. emotions are not of themselves moral or immoral, good or bad. emotions just are. the first step is not to label his emotion as good or bad or to numb ourselves so that we hide our true feelings, it is to accept ourselves as we are, as god accepts us. oh, but they definitely can be. please look at colossians 3:5-10 and ephesians 4:25-27. emotions can be controlled and god puts very strong emphasis on self-control, otherwise, why would he have paul write to timothy so much about making sure to teach self-control? [insert deletion of remainder of paragraph] re-think it, aaron. don't be quick to judge. he has forgiven those with aids, he has dealt with and taken responsibility for his feelings and made appropriate choices for action on such feelings. he has not given in to his anger. please, re-think and re-read for yourself, joe. again, the issue is self-control especially over feelings and actions, for our actions stem from our feelings in many instances. as for god giving in to his anger, that comes very soon. joe moore joe fisher 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20915">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20915" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i don't think most people understand what a christian is. it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches. rather i think it should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for god's sake. he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the typical statement from an irrational and brainwashed person. the bible was written by some male chavnist thousands of years ago (as were all of the "holy" books). follow the parts that you think are suitable for modern life. ignore the others. for heaven's (!) sake don't take it literally. please, leave heaven out of it. for his own sake, i pray that dan does take it literally because that's how god intended it to be taken. dan, your view of many groups appears correct from my point of view. however, i have found a group which is truly meeting requirements laid down by the bible on what it means to be a disciple of jesus. i have no clue where wwc is, but please mail me. i'd really like to get you in touch with them. same. hey we can't do it, god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him. that's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. but [insert deletion of ranting about other religions which obviously has gone off-center of dan's original context] dan, i'm familiar with this one. you've got a point, though. there are some who don't want to turn over everything and be a disciple, some have no clue about it because they've not been taught, some have done exactly that and turned over everything to follow jesus, some are blocked by difficult doctrine taught by uncaring pharisees and teachers of the law. however, jesus pointed out what it takes to follow him and to be his disciple in luke 9:23-26 and luke 14:25-33. my question is: why do people ignore the command and treat it as optional? i certainly don't have an answer to this. [insert deletion] parting question: would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents? you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study. and therefore i claim you are brain washed. my parents had nothing to do with it. god had and has everything to do with it. as for these attacking responses, i must say that i disagree with your tone and what appears to be some very judgmental statements (possibly to the point of slander) when talking about people, not what they do. please, if you have a response, state it instead of flying off the handle on some discourse which may have nothing truly to do with what is being discussed. i'm sure both dan and i would have a much happier time with your responses. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20917">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20917" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 ******* this is somewhat long, but pleas read it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! boy am i glad you decided to read this. i've got a problem that i need as many people's help from as possible. before i go in to the details of this, let me go ahead and tell you that (though it may sound it) this is not one of those boy meets girl problem...at least not totally like that to me....anyway... ok, i am a 19 year old sophmore at ncsu. about 10 years ago, my family and i were vacationing at the coast in a cottage we rented. across the street, was ths girl who would whistle at me whenever she saw me... her name in erin. well, we became friends that week at the beach and have been writing each other for about 10 years....there was a period of about 2 years we lost contact..but that was a while ago. by the way...erin lives in kansas and me in nc. ok, last year in one of her letters, she says that she is coming back to nc to see some of her family who are gonna be there. so i drove about 4 hours to see her. this is where it begins....i spent the whole day with erin....one of the best days of my life. even though we had been writing each other, we still had to get used to being in person....she has got to be the most incredible woman i ever met. (she's one year older than me btw). i mean, no person in the world could ask for a better person. not only was she incredibly beautiful (not to mention way out of my league...although i'm not unattractive mind you), but she had a great personality and a great sence of humor. her family is one of those families who goes to church but that is about the extent of their christianity...you know the kind of people. but she knows i am a christian. well, you get the idea of what i think of her. if there is ever such a thing as love at first sight....i found it. that was last year...i kid you not when i say that i have thought about her every day since then. in out letters, erin and i always kid each other about not finding dates..(which is true for me, but i know it can't be for her). she has had some problems at home, her folks split up and she ended up leaving school....now we are at the present... let me give you part of the letter i got from her last week.... "okay, now i'm going to try to explain my life to you. i'm not going to ku anymore because something just isn't right. college just wasn't clicking with me here. greek life is really big here and that just isn't my way. i wasn't taking any classes that truly interested me & i really have no idea of what i want to do with my life. i was interested in something medical (physical therpy) & i love working with kids, but 'it' just didn't work for me at this university. and my parents could tell. "so i'm working full time at the bass store [bass shoes that is] and now i have a part-time job at a local daycare. i work in the infant room m-w-f. i've really enjoyed it so far. it spices up my week a little bit and it's great experience. "as of now, i'm not planning on going back to school in the very near future. the main reason being my indecision on what i want to study. but i definatley plan on going back within the next couple of years. where? i have no idea--except for one thing, it won't be to kansas. "right noew i'm discussing a promotion with my boss and district manager. it looks like i'll train at the store i work at now for about 4-6 months as assistant manager and when that's done, i'll basically be given a list of stores (newly or soon to be built) to chose where i would like to manage. i've pretty much decided on either one of the carolinas (hopeully close to the beach) wouldn't it be fun to actually see each other more than once every few years?? what do you think abou that? i would like to know your opinion. "this job would pretty much be temporary. but it is very good pay and any thye of management experience would look good on an application or resume. the company is solid and treats it employees very well. good benefits, bonuses & medical plans. plus- after 1 year of full-time service, they will reimburse tuition. i do have school money waitng for me, but this will help, especially since i will probably end up paying out of state tuition wherever i go. "chris, i really would like to know what you think of my decision. i respect your opinion. i've been completely lost for what to do for soooo long that when the opportunity came along it sounded really good. i do like my job although i'm about 99.9% sure that i want to do more with my life than reatil management..but it is something. i don't think earning about $20,000 a year for a 20 year old female is too bad. "anyway, onto your career decisions. i'll solve your problem right now, marry me... "you can do your pilot thing-- i like to be by myself sometimes! seriously (or not as seriously)- do what will make you the happiest, worry about the home life later." ok, well i'm sure you see what has got me so uptight. what do you think she meant about the marraige thing?? i dream at night about marrying her, and then she mentions it in her letter!!! i don't know what to think?? since she wants to move to the carolina's should i search out a bass store near here and aske her to come to carolina??? i always pick on those people who graduate from high school and get married....but what does she mean??? i've had a lot of stress lately with exams and also the fact that i don't date beacause 1) no time 2) not that much $$ 3) that most college women are wrapped up in the social scene with the greeks whic as a christian i can't support-----and here she says she doesn't like the greek thing either!! maybe i'm so stunned because there is actually a girl that i am so attracted to paying some real attention to me. i mean, what if she did move to nc...what would i do??? i'm only 19 and she 20....i'm only a sophmore struggling through classes.. i have prayed about this over the past year from time to time.. saying, "god if she is the right one, let the situation open up.." could this be my sign??? i would do anything to get her to nc...here is some moree that makes it worse.. should i call her?? i'm terrible over the phone. i don't even like to talk to my friends here for longer than 3 minutes. i mean, what would a girl as perfect as her want with a very average guy like me?? i'm really confused....i would really appreciate any help i can get. [i have a feeling that it might be more appropriate to talk with chris directly via email. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20922">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20922" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i used to be a marriage commissioner for the alaska court system (sort of a justice of the peace). i had great difficulty with that duty. i used to pray earnestly in the courthouse bathroom before the ceremonies, mostly asking that the couples would come to appreciate and fulfill the true holiness and divine purpose in marriage--couples who obviously didn't realize that marriage is god's institution, not the state's. gradually, however, i came to conclude that because i was acting in a strictly secular, public capacity, established as such by both the state and the expectations of the couples involved, i was really conducting a purely secular, legal civil event, with no greater moral or religious implications than if i had been conducting a civil trial (the couple who told me, mid-ceremony, to "please hurry it up" may have helped me to this conclusion). i thought i had neatly rationalized a clear and sharp distinction between marriage before god, and "marriage" before the state, until i had to deal with my own divorce. keeping matthew 19:6 in mind, i felt that the state had no business dissolving my marriage established before god, but of course it assumed jurisdiction nonetheless. i would ask those of you proposing answers to this question to consider this issue's logical extension: if intercourse, or the mental intent of the parties, or the ceremony of the church, or any combination thereof, establishes marriage, then at what moment is it dissolved? karl thoennes iii university of alaska 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20924">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20924" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 religion (especially christianity) is nothing more than a drug. some people use drugs as an escape from reality. christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high. why would you say "especially christianity"? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20925">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20925" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i've been thinking about the idea that was raised (by michael covington, i think) that words mean what we think they mean, regardless of etymology. i've been reflecting on what certain words meant in my childhood and tracing how this shaped some of my attitudes. i grew up in a home where christ was a bad word. people who were very angry said it. the word christian meant someone who was not a jew. it carried connotations of otherness, of threat, of enemy. it took some time to figure out that there was a connection between `christ' and `christian'. when i accepted jesus, i expected to be disowned. to become a christian meant to join the enemy. i knew others would consider me a traitor. at some level, i agreed, but was still prepared to pay this price. like esau, i sold my birthright. however, i made a better bargain. he only got some stew, but i got the incomparable riches of knowing christ. as it turned out, my parents did not disown me. i found out later that they were hoping it was a phase that i would grow out of. by the time they had decided it wasn't a phase, they were sort of used to it. they didn't disown me but they didn't completely accept the situation either. for example, they didn't come to my wedding because it was in a church. when i visited my grandmother in the hospital a few days before her death, she said to me, "as far as i'm concerned, you still are a jew." what she meant was that she loved me and forgave me. but i am not a jew. i am a christian. (i'll concede, one that likes chicken soup with matzoh balls.:-)) i do not keep kosher. i do not celebrate the sabbath on saturday. my sons are not circumcised. but these things are true of some people who do consider themselves jews. it is not these rules that make people jews; it is the heritage from the past. i gave up the past. this is why i find it hard to relate to messianic jews. their experience is unlike mine. they still consider themselves jews while following jesus. some would even say that i *must* do so, too. i am at a stage of my life now where i would like to have a heritage. it was not something i valued very much when i gave it. but i did have a sense that i was giving it for god. it may have been a small sacrifice. it may have been an unnecessary sacrifice. but i gave it and do not want to ask for it back. and while i don't have the heritage i was born with, i do have another. i am an outcast from the house of israel, but i am a member of the church. one of the things i like about being a catholic christian is that it is rich in tradition. it gives me a feeling of, once again, being rooted in the past. this is probably one of the reasons why i don't like it when people mess around with christian traditions (for example, changing the name of easter). these traditions fill an important emotional need of mine. i suppose the point of all this is that people shouldn't assume that all believers of jewish background are the same. for some `jewish christian' is a good name, for others it is an oxymoron. jayne kulikauskas/jayen@mmalt.guild.org 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20926">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20926" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 same. hey we can't do it, god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him. that's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. but so you think it is easy to be a muslim? or be a buddhist? [good points on buddhism, etc. deleted] just because one says christianity -- true christianity -- is hard to follow faithfully does not mean that one discounts the validity and difficulty of other religions. i admire those of any religion who are willing to make the kind of sacrifices and dedicate themselves spiritually in the way you are talking about. [more deleted] and perhaps some more. but leave the crap in it out ("woman was created after man, to be his helper" etc). do you think this is what christianity is all about? not all christians believe in this particular story literally. it sounds above like you are supporting a policy of "to each his own" -- here is another example of that. if it helps someone's faith to take every word of the bible literally, i support and respect that, too. time. we don't rush it in one day, christianity is your whole life. it is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in a while. we box everything into time units. such as work at this time, sports, tv, social life. god is above these boxes and should be when ever i turn on my tv there is this pat robertson and other brain washers (oh boy, what an act they put on!) with an 1-800 number to turn in your pledges. god it seems is alive and well inside these boxes. please don't judge all of christianity by one man. the only man one can truly judge all of christianity by is jesus (makes sense, right?). i think his point about how we put our lives into little boxes is very true -- what does your comment about robertson have to do with that? carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for parting question: would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents? you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study. and therefore i claim you are brain washed. i was raised agnostic -- my father was never baptised and was raised atheist. he is not an atheist because he found a close-mindedness present in the viewpoint of his parents equal to the close-mindedness he found in the viewpoint of the christians he came in contact with. thus i was _free_ to choose how to live my life, and he supported the decision i made to join the episcopal church, although he emphasized to me that his respect for my beliefs should result in my not intruding on his beliefs, ie, i should not try to convert him, as that is his decision. (please, no flames or advice on how to convert him!) one of my good friends is hindi and i greatly respect her beliefs and the culture surrounding her religion. my best friend is jewish and i have always held a profound resepct for the jewish religion (chaim potok and isaac bashevis singer are two of my favorite authors). i really do not think you can make that kind of generalization about how christians choose -- and i do mean choose-- their faith. if they have not consciously accepted the faith in their adult lives (which is what confirmation represents), then you can talk about their being brainwashed. "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!" - rush, "freewill" 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20927">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20927" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 perhaps you can tell your friend that you feel pressured by his continual discussions of this topic -- surely he doesn't feel you should be _pressured_ into something you feel uncomfortable about (since christianity should be a choice one should make on one's own). please also realize that he is doing this out of friendship -- he probably feels you are missing out on something great, and wants to tell you about it. but since you know where you can learn about christianity, you can tell him that it is now up to you to make that choice, and if the choice is no, you should be respected for that. personally i believe that a christian's mission is just to be christ-like, showing his/her own faith and happiness in that faith, and make sure people know they are welcome to talk to you about it. i do not believe in imposing your beliefs upon others -- but then again everyone's definitions of "imposing" may differ. i hope i have made myself clear.... if not, please correct me! :) vera i am your clock! | i bind unto myself today | vera noyes i am your religion! | the strong name of the | noye@midway.uchicago.edu i own you! | trinity.... | no disclaimer -- what - lard | - st. patrick's breastplate | is there to disclaim? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20928">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20928" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 here is some material by michael davies on the subject of schism in general and archishop lefebvre in particular. he wrote it around 1990. the first part of the two-part article was on the scandalous activities of archbishop weakland (in this country), but i cut all that. and i pared down the rest to what was relevant. joe buehler schism and disobedience according to st. thomas aquinas, schism consists primarily in a refusal of submission to the pope or communion with the members of the church united to him. on first sight it would appear that, whatever the subjective motivation of the archbishop, as discussed above, he must be in a state of objective schism as he has refused to submit to the pope on a very grave matter involving his supreme power of jurisdiction. however, standard catholic textbooks of theology make it clear that while all schisms involve disobedience not all acts of disobedience are schismatic. if this were so, as was noted at the beginning of this article, it would mean that the number of american bishops who are not schismatic would not reach double figures. the distinction between disobedience and schism is made very clear in the article on schism in the very authoritative dictionnaire de theologie catholique. the article is by father yves congar who is certainly no friend of archbishop lefebvre. he explains that schism and disobedience are so similar that they are often confused. father congar writes that schism involves a refusal to accept the existence of legitimate authority in the church, for example, luther's rejection of the papacy. father congar explains that the refusal to accept a decision of legitimate authority in a particular instance does not constitute schism but disobedience. the catholic encyclopedia explains that for a catholic to be truly schismatic he would have to intend "to sever himself from the church as far as in him lies." it adds that "not every disobedience is schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the command of the superiors, a denial of their divine right to command."not only does mgr. lefebvre not deny the divine right of the pope to command, but he affirms repeatedly his recognition of the pope's authority and his intention of never breaking away from rome. the archbishop made his attitude clear in the july/august 1989 issue of 30 days: "we pray for the pope every day. nothing has changed with the consecrations last june 30. we are not sedevacantists. we recognize in john paul ii the legitimate pope of the catholic church. we don't even say that he is a heretical pope. we only say that his modernist actions favor heresy." intrinsically schismatic? the principal argument used by those claiming that mgr. lefebvre is in schism is that the consecration of a bishop without a papal mandate is an intrinsically schismatic act. a bishop who carries out such a consecration, it is claimed, becomes ipso facto a schismatic. this is not true. if such a consecration is an intrinsically schismatic act it would always have involved the penalty of excommunication. in the 1917 code of canon law the offence was punished only by suspension (see canon 2370 of the 1917 code). pope pius xii had raised the penalty to excommunication as a response to the establishment of a schismatic church in china. the consecration of these illicit chinese bishops differed radically from the consecrations carried out by mgr. lefebvre as the professed intention was to repudiate the authority of the pope, that is, to deny that he has the right to govern the church, and the illicitly consecrated chinese bishops were given a mandate to exercise an apostolic mission. neither archbishop lefebvre nor any of the bishops he has consecrated claim that they have powers of jurisdiction. they have been consecrated solely for the purpose of ensuring the survival of the society by carrying out ordinations and also to perform confirmations. i do not wish to minimize in any way the gravity of the step take by mgr. lefebvre. the consecration of bishops without a papal mandate is far more serious matter than the ordination of priests as it involves a refusal in practice of the primacy or jurisdiction belonging by divine right to the roman pontiff. but the archbishop could argue that the crisis afflicting the church could not be more grave, and that grave measures were needed in it appears to be taken for granted by most of the archbishop's critics that he was excommunicated for the offense of schism, and the vatican has certainly been guilty of fostering this impression. there is not so much as a modicum of truth in this allegation. the new code of canon law includes a section beginning with canon 1364 entitled "penalties for specific offenses" (de poenis in singula dicta). the first part deals with "offenses against religion and the unity of the church" (de delictis contra religionem et ecclesiae unitatem). canon 1364 deals with the offense of schism which is, evidently, together with apostasy and heresy, one of the three fundamental offenses against the unity of the church. but the archbishop was not excommunicated under the terms of this canon or, indeed, under any canon involving an offense against religion or the unity of the church. the canon cited in his excommunication comes from the third section of "penalties for specific offenses" which is entitled "usurpation of ecclesial functions and offenses in their exercise" (de munerum ecclesiasticorum usurpatione degue delictis iniis exercendis). the canon in question is canon 1382, which reads: "a bishop who consecrates someone bishop and the person who receives such a consecration from a bishop without a pontifical mandate incur an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication reserved to the holy see." the scandalous attempts to smear archbishop lefebvre with the offense of schism are, then, contrary to both truth and charity. a comparable smear under civil as opposed to ecclesiastical law would certainly justify legal action for libel involving massive damages. an accurate parallel would be to state that a man convicted of manslaughter had been convicted of first degree murder. i must stress that what i have written here is not the dubious opinion of laymen unversed in the intricacies of canon law. canon lawyers without the least shred of sympathy for mgr. lefebvre have repudiated the charge of schism made against him as totally untenable. father patrick yaldrini, dean of the faculty of canon law of the institut catholique in paris noted in the 4 july 1988 issue of valeurs actuelles that, as i have just explained, mgr. lefebvre was not excommunicated for schism but for the usurpation of an ecclesiastical function. he added that it is not the consecration of a bishop which constitutes schism but the conferral of an apostolic mission upon the illicitly consecrated bishop. it is this usurpation of the powers of the sovereign pontiff which proves the intention of establishing a parallel church. cardinal rosalio lara, president of the pontifical commission for the authentic interpretation of canon law, commented on the consecrations in the 10 july 1988 issue of la repubblica. it would be hard to the act of consecrating a bishop (without a papal mandate) is not in itself a schismatic act. in fact, the code that deals with offenses is divided into two sections. one deals with offenses against religion and the unity of the church, and these are apostasy, schism, and heresy. consecrating a bishop with a pontifical mandate is, on the contrary, an offense against the exercise of a specific ministry. for example, in the case of the consecrations carried out by the vietnamese archbishop ngo dinh thuc in 1976 and 1983, although the archbishop was excommunicated he was not considered to have committed a schismatic act because there was no intention of a breach with the church. it is not simply unjust but ludicrous to suggest that in consecrating bishops without a papal mandate archbishop lefebvre had the least intent of establishing a schismatic church. he is not a schismatic and will never be a schismatic. the archbishop considers correctly that the the church is undergoing its worst crisis since the arian heresy, and that for the good of the church it was necessary for him to consecrate the four bishops to ensure the future of his society. canon law provides for just such a situation, and even if one believes that the future of the society could have been guaranteed without these consecrations, the fact that the archbishop believed sincerely that it could not means, as canon law states clearly, that he has not incurred excommunication. furthermore, while the vatican allows such prelates as archbishop weakland to undermine the faith with impunity it cannot expect catholics to pay the least attention to its sanctions against a great and orthodox archbishop whose entire life has been devoted to the service of the church and the salvation of souls. dr. eric m. de saventhem, president of the international una voce association, is one of the best informed laymen in the church, and he knows the archbishop intimately. dr. de saventhem, like myself, has no greater desire than to see a reconciliation between mgr. lefebvre and the holy see during the archbishop's lifetime. a quotation from a statement by dr. de saventhem which was published in the 15 february 1989 remnant merits careful study: in retrospect, the road leading to the consecrations of 30 june appears more paved with grave roman (and, unfortunately, also papal) omissions than with lefebvrist "obstinancies." and from the eyes of an informed public this cannot be hidden by attempting to present the archbishop's act of grave disobedience as an offense against the faith! it is said--today--that mgr. lefebvre has "an erroneous concept of tradition." if this were so, cardinal ratzinger could not, on behalf of the pope, have addressed to the archbishop the following words in his letter of 28 july 1987: "your ardent desire to safeguard tradition by procuring for it 'the means to live and prosper' testifies to your attachment to the faith of all time... the holy father understands your concern and shares it." 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20930">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20930" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 my problem with science is that often it allows us to assume we know what is best for ourselves. god endowed us with the ability to produce life through sexual relations, for example, but he did not make that availible to everyone. does that mean that if science can over-ride god's decision through alterations, that god wills for us to have the power to decide who should and should not be able to have children? should men be allowed to have babies, if that is made possible. in a word, yes. i don't believe that physical knowledge has a great deal of impact on the power of god. in the past, god gave us the ability to create life through sexual relations. now, he is giving us the ability to create life through in vitro fertilization. the difference between the two is merely cosmetic, and even if we gain the ability to create universes we won't begin to approach the glory of god. the power we are being given is a test, and i am sure that in many cases we will use our new abilities unwisely. but, people have been using sexuality unwisely for millenia and i haven't heard an outcry to abolish it yet! no matter how far we extend our dominion over the physical world, we aren't impinging on god's power. it's only when we attempt to gain control of the spiritual world, those things that can't be approached through science and logic, that we begin to interfere with god. alan terlep "...and the scorpion says, 'it's oakland university, rochester, mi in my nature.'" atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20931">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20931" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 this is not true. the athiest's position is that there is no proof of the existence of god. as much as some people accept their church, their priests or straight from their own scriptures as the "proof", this does not satisfy atheists. you haven't fully explained the atheist position. many theists believe that there is "no proof of the existence of god" but choose to believe in him anyway. i haven't yet found an argument for atheism that can't quickly be broken down to unprovable assumptions. this isn't a problem with me (everybody needs to have a faith) but if you believe that you can provide a "purely logical" argument for the nonexistence of god, i'd really like to see it. are you asking us to believe blindly? you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question "does god exist?" i.e. self-awareness and reason. if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth. does god want us to be like that? you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything. however, if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone. and since we can only use faith, why is one picture of "god" (e.g. hinduism) any less valid than another (e.g. christianity)? ahh...but when you use science and reason, you have faith in certain beliefs of the scientific method--for example: the physical laws of the universe are stable. our observations of reality are a valid basis for a determination of truth. objective reality exists. logical argument is a valid way to answer all questions. can you prove any of these? alan terlep "...and the scorpion says, 'it's oakland university, rochester, mi in my nature.'" atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20932">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20932" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 and, from my meagre knowledge of the bible, it seems that christians have been hard on the jews of christ's day for being cautious about accepting somebody that their religious authorities didn't accept as the messiah. this is a good point. christ was hardly the only person who claimed to be the messiah--in fact, a number of "messiahs" were active in the area from the time of the roman conquest to after the fall of masada. many of the statements made by the apostles--especially their repeated attempts to give jesus a sword (give him military power) point to the fact that they didn't realize the true nature of his reign until after the fact. many of the statements in the bible can be seen as being oriented toward explaining this new definition of "messiah" to the jews who were being preached to. alan terlep "...and the scorpion says, 'it's oakland university, rochester, mi in my nature.'" atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20933">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20933" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup, and i think that they can be used to explain each other. unfortunately i don't have direct quotes handy... 1) atheists believe that when they die, they die forever. 2) a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair. i don't see what the problem is! to christians, hell is, by definition, eternal death--exactly what atheists are expecting when they die. there's no reason hell has to be especially awful--to most people, eternal death is bad literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view, since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such. personally, i don't think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double-edged sword issuing from his mouth--i treat both these statements as metaphorical. alan terlep "...and the scorpion says, 'it's oakland university, rochester, mi in my nature.'" atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu rushing in where angels fear to tread. --jody 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20934">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20934" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 |> parting question: |> would you have become a christian if you had not |> been indoctrinated by your parents? you probably never learned about |> any other religion to make a comparative study. and therefore i claim |> you are brain washed. you write as if no-one ever became a christian except people from christian families. this is not true, as quite a few people on this group can attest (including me). richard aquinas chonak, norris@mit.edu, usenet addict, intp seeking job change: sys-mgr: vax, sis, cobol, dtr; progr: unix, c/++, x 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20936">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20936" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 the sophomore (romans 1:22) the sophomore says, ``what is truth?'' and turns to bask in the admiration of his peers. how modern how daring how liberating how modern how daring how liberating they chant the sophomore, being american doesn't know that his ``question'' was asked before, by a urbane cosmopolitan politician (appointed not elected) who happened to live two thousand years ago. like many politicians he cared less about ideals than results less about ends than means less about anything than keeping his job (and his head). we might call him a bit brutal though `firm' would be kinder (and no doubt stalin, who let nobody go, laughed at his laxness) he didn't like his job; perhaps he no longer hoped for better (nor feared worse, except regarding his head). and when these wily jews with their heads-i-win, tails-you-lose brought forth their madman, his first impulse was to play the roman: ``i find nothing wrong with him, see to it yourselves.'' but when they mentioned `king' and `caesar' his heart froze. if he killed their madman he'd start a riot and lose his job (and his head) if he saved the king of the jews he'd piss off caesar and lose his job (and his head) and when his wife told him to have nothing to do with the righteous lout she didn't tell him anything he hadn't already figured out. so he punted. ``not my jurisdiction! take him to see herod!'' (who just happened to be in town....) herod appreciated the courtesy but wasn't worried and sent the sharp-tongued fool (who suddenly didn't have much to say, funny how people lose it under pressure....) in the attire proper to his royal state. his ass is covered---if herod has no problem, caesar certainly won't. the fool can be king of whatever world he wants as long as it's not caesar's. ``i'm letting him go,'' he said with a shout. (looks like he'll last this one out....) the crowd's reaction puzzled him. they really wanted him dead. they didn't want the king of the jews, they wanted barabbas instead (and, as josephus records, they got him) oh well, he thought, they all look the same to me. and we'll get barabbas next time. and if i can get them to say ``we have no king but caesar!'' by killing a madman, hell, i'll kill ten a day. and then pilate had his fun a little joke to the point and all this went as it always does when someone gets caught in the gears of government and there's a scientific explanation (no doubt) for the superstitious rumors (persisting to this day) that it didn't all end with a tomb and a roman squadron on guard. our sophomore doesn't know about this he doesn't recognize his kindred spirit (or truth either, as he admits). i guess we haven't learned much in two thousand years. -fred gilham gilham@csl.sri.com "peace is only better than war when it's not hell too. war being hell makes sense." -walker percy, the second coming 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20939">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20939" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 [again, in the normal protestant interpretation, sunday is not a law, and worshipping on another day is not a sin. churches are free to decide on the day they will meet, just as they are free to decide on the hour. it would not be a sin to worship on some other day, but if you belong to a church that worships on sunday and you show up on monday, you will probably worship alone... --clh] i totally agree with that sentiment. but why do you have to go further and advocate violating what god has set up? that is the question which you have not answered from scripture. you can worship on every day, as long as you work. but god says the sabbath is all mine. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20940">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20940" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 in a short poem ("god in his mercy made / the fixed pains of hell"), c. s. lewis expresses an idea that i'm sure was current among others, but i haven't be able to find its source: that even hell is an expression of mercy, because god limits the amount of separation from him, and hence the amount of agony, that one can i have also heard it called an expression of mercy, because heaven would be far more agonizing for those who had rejected god. joe kellett jkellett@netcom.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20942">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20942" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i'm writing a paper on the role of the catholic church in poland after 1989. can anyone tell me more about this, or fill me in on recent books/articles( in english, german or french). most important for me is the role of the church concerning the abortion-law, religious education at schools, birth-control and the relation church-state(government). thanx, "m.m.zwart"<s0612596@let.rug.nl> 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20943">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20943" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved. ... didn't paul write that if the resurrection is not true, we are the biggest fools of all? however, whether you believe in christ or not, his teachings (e.g. love your brotherman as yourself), even if only followed at a secular level, could do a great deal to alleviate some of the problems we see today in the world. even when i was a rabid atheist i couldn't deny that. jeff johnson jcj@tellabs.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20944">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20944" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. galatians 6:9 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20947">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian20947" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i'm concerned about a recent posting about wbt/sil. i thought they'd pretty much been denounced as a right-wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference, including vietnam and south america. a commission from mexican academia denounced them in 1979 as " a covert political and ideological institution used by the u.s. govt as an instrument of control, regulation, penetration, espionage and repression." my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc.religion.christian. it's important that christians don't immediately accept every "christian" organization as automatically above reproach. good heavens, you mean my good friend wes collins, who took his wife and two small children into the jungles of guatemala, despite dangers from primitive conditions and armed guerillas, so that the indigenous people groups their could have the bible in their native languages--the young man who led bible studies in our church, who daily demonstrated and declared his deep abiding faith in the lord of love--you mean he really was a sneaky imperialistic *spy* whose _real_ reason for going was to exploit and oppress the ignorant and unsuspecting masses? imagine my surprise! i never would have thought it of how was this terrible deceit discovered? what exactly was the "cultural interference" they were caught committing? attempting to persuade the locals that their ancestral gods were false gods, and their sacrifices (including human sacrifices in some cases) were vain? destroying traditional lifestyles by introducing steel tools, medical vaccines, and durable clothes? oh and by the way, who did the denouncing? i am terribly shocked to hear that my friend wes, who seemed so nice, was really such a deceitful tool of the devil. please provide me with specific documentation on this charge. there is some risk that i may not believe it 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20948">
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 [in looking through my files this weekend, i ran across some lyrics from various rock groups that have content. here are two from black sabbath's "master of reality". i'll say this much for the music of the '60's and early '70's, at least they asked questions of significance. jethro tull is another to asked and wrote about things that caused one to wonder. --rex] after forever have you ever thought about your soul-- can it be saved? or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in you grave. is god just a thought within you read in a book when you were at school? when you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool? would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope? do you think he's a fool? well i have seen the truth. yes i have seen the light and i've changed my ways. and i'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of your days. could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believed in god above? they should realize before they criticise that god is the only way to love. is your mind so small that you have to fall in with the pack wherever they run? will you still sneer when death is near and say they may as well worship the sun? i think it was true -it was people like you that crucified christ. i think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced. will you be so sure when your day is near to say you don't believe? you had the chance but you turned it down now you can't retrieve. perhaps you'll think before you say that god is dead & gone open your eyes, just realize that he is the one. the only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate. or will you still jeer at all you hear? yes! i think it's too late. lord of this world you're searching for your mind don't know where to start. can't find the key to fit the lock on your heart. you think you know but you are never quite sure your soul is ill but you will not find a cure. your world was made for you by someone above but you choose evil ways instead of love. you made me master of the world where you exist the soul i took from you was not even missed. lord of the world, evil possessor, lord of this world, he's now your confessor! you think you're innocent -you've nothing to fear you don't know me, you say, but isn't it clear? you turned to me in all your worldly greed and pride. but will you turn to me when it your turn to die? 
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 i apologize if this article is slightly confusing, and late. the origonal draft didn't make it through the moderators quote-screens. so i did violence to it, but if you remember the article i am responding to it should still make sence. hi xian netters, god bless you what, no hello for heathan netters? i feel all left out now. :( [deletia- table of content, intro, homosexuality] incredibly chopped up post [deletia- incorrect attributions] uh, you have your attributions wrong, you were responding to my article, so dan johnson should be the 1st one. in article 28388@athos.rutgers.edu, jayne@mmalt.guild.org [deletia- no free gifts speil nuked by moderator fiat.] i find that i am dissatisfied with the little purposes that we can manufacture for ourselves. little in the cosmic sense. ah, in the _cosmic_ sence.. but who lives in the cosmic sence? not me! cosmicly, we don't even exist for all practical purposes. i can hardly use the cosmic sence of stuff as a guide to life. it would just say: "don't bother." luckily for mortals, there are many sences of scale you can talk about. in a human sence, you can have big purposes. even the greatest of the great pharos are long gone, the pyramids historical oddities being worn down by the wind, eventually to be turned into dust. but the influence of aristotle, confucious, alexander, ceasar and countless others is still with us, although their works have perished. but they have changed to course of history, and while humanity exists, their deeds cannot be said to have come to nothing, even if they are utterly forgotten. mankind itself will one day perish. one day, surely. (well, unless you believe in the second coming, which i do not) but in that time we can make a difference. without some interconnectedness that transcends the physical, without god, it is all pointless in the in the end. but it must be the end; until then, there is all the point you can muster. and when that end comes, there will be nobody to ask, "gee, i don't think james sledd's deeds are gonna make much of a difference, ulitmately, ya know?". but they will have already have made a difference, great or small, before the end. why must your ends be eternal to be worthwhile? most people are able to live with that, and for them little purposes (success, money, power, effecting change, helping others) little is in the eye of the beholder, of course. i suppose they never think about the cosmic scale, or are at least able to put it out of their minds. i don't doubt it. but i have thought about the cosmic scale. and it does not seem to mean much to us, here, today. to me, it is comforting to know that reality is an illusion. i would not find this comforting. but perhaps it is merely my definitions. here's what i think the relevant terms are: "reality" that which is real. "illusion" that which is not real, but seems to be. "real" objectively existing for "reality" to be an "illusion" would mean, then: that which is real is not real, but seems to be. or: that which objectively exists, does not objectively exist, but does seem to objectively exist. from which we can conclude, that unless you want to get a contradiction, that no things objectively exist. but i have a problem with this because i would like to say that *i* objectively exist, if nothing else. cogito ergo sum and all that. perhaps you do not mean all that, but rather mean: "objective reality is unreachable by humans." which is not so bad, and so far as i know is true. that the true reality underneath the the physical is spirit. have on. if reality is an illusion, isn't true reality an illusion too? and if true reality is spirit, doens't that make spirit an illusion as well? if i am not distinctly confused, this is getting positively buddhist. that this world is a school of sorts, where we learn and grow, and our souls mature. that is one hell of a statement, although perhaps true. do you mean to imply that it was *intended* to be so? if so, please show that this is true. if not, please explain how this can give a purpose to anything. that gives a purpose to my little purposes, how does it do that? wouldn't the world=school w/ intent idea make the world a preparation for some *greater* purpose, rather than a purpose in itself. and takes some of the pressure off. what pressure? it's not so necessary to make this life a success in human terms if you're really just here to learn. it is not necessary to be a success in human terms, unless your goals either include doing so or require doing so before they themselves can be achived. indeed, many people have set goals for themselves that do not include success in human terms as _i_ understand it. check out yer buddhist monk type guy. out for nirvana, which is not at all the same thing. it's more important to progress, grow, persist, to learn to love yourself and others and to express your love, especially when it's dificult to do so. honest effort is rewarded by god, he knows our limitations. why is learning to love a goal? what happens if you fail in this goal? to you? to god? to the mysterious purpose? [deletia- question about immortailty and my answer deleted because it was mostly quote.] two serious questions/invitations to discussion 1. what is the nature of eternal life? 2. how can we as mortals locked into space time conceive of it? possible answer for #2: the best we can do is metaphor/analogy question 2a what is the best metaphor? i'll have a crack at that. (1) the nature of eternal life is neatly described by its name: it is the concept of life without death, life without end. (2) no. we can put together word to describe it, but we cannot imagine it. (2a) no metaphor is adequate next to eternity; if it were we could not understand it either. (or so i suspect) - dan johnson and god said "jeeze, this is dull"... and it *was* dull. genesis 0:0 these opinions probably show what i know. 
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 i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup, and i think that they can be used to explain each other. unfortunately i don't have direct quotes handy... 1) atheists believe that when they die, they die forever. more correctly: when people die, they cease to exist. 2) a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair. i don't see what the problem is! to christians, hell is, by definition, eternal death--exactly what atheists are expecting when they die. the idea i've gotten is that to christians, hell is -- like heaven -- afterlife; i.e, you don't cease to exist, but are subjected to eternal torture (well, that's the orthodox idea anyway; "eternal death" if you prefer that). atheists don't believe in any sort of afterlife. literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view, since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such. personally, i don't think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double-edged sword issuing from his mouth--i treat both these state- ments as metaphorical. i think it's safe to say that hell was never intended metaphorical. certainly not the equivalent of ceasing to exist. some christian concepts are indeed metaphors, but your idea of hell is a 20th century interpretation. it is, of course, nice to see that even christianity might evolve to fit the worldview of modern age, but i fear the church will not accept it. understandably, per- haps, because if you accept that hell is a metaphor, then you're one step closer to turning god into a metaphor as well. antti lahelma | mtf@saha.hut.fi | gnothi seauton lehtotie 3 -o- stel@purkki.apu.fi -*- ====== ======= 00630 helsinki | <<jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> | tunne itsesi 
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 1) atheists believe that when they die, they die forever. 2) a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair. i don't see what the problem is! to christians, hell is, by definition, eternal death--exactly what atheists are expecting when they die. well, i think that most christians believe that your conciousness will somehow continue on after your 'physical' death, which contradicts what most atheists (myself included) believe, namely that your conciousness, being contained in your brain, dies when your brain dies. there's no reason hell has to be especially awful--to most people, eternal death is bad i fear the pain that often comes with the process of dying, but since i won't be around to worry about it, i don't fear eternal death. literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view, since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such. this is something i've always found confusing. if all your nerve endings die with your physical body, why would flame hurt you? how can one "wail and gnash teeth" with no lungs and no teeth? mark schnitzius schnitzi@eola.cs.ucf.edu university of central florida 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20958">
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 this is why the most effective substance-abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual you might want to provide some evidence next time you make a claim like this. in 12-step programs (like alcoholics anonymous), one of the steps involves acknowleding a "higher power". aa and other 12-step abuse- recovery programs are acknowledged as being among the most effective. [deletia- and so on] i seem to have been rather unclear. what i was asking is this: please show me that the most effective substance-absure recovery programs involve meetinsg peoples' spiritual needs, rather than merely attempting to fill peoples' spiritual needs as percieved by the people, a.a, s.r.c. regulars, or snoopy. this will probably involve defining "spritual needs" (is it not that clear) and showing that such things exist and how they can be filled. annother tack you might take is to say that "fulfilling spiritual needs" means "acknowledging a "higher power" of some sort, then show that systems that do require this, work better than otherwise identical systems that do not. a correlation here would help you, but as you point out this might just be demonstrating swapping one crutch for annother. (however, i do feel that religion is usually a better crutch than alchohol, as it is not usually poisonous! :) ) i hope with that clarification, my question will be answerable. i actually did know about the 12 step program, its the question of what it does, rather than what it tries to do, that makes a difference to me. - dan johnson and god said "jeeze, this is dull"... and it *was* dull. genesis 0:0 these opinions probably show what i know. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20959">
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 it's like refusing 'god's kingdom come'. in one of jesus' revelation in this century, "...same thing as in the old days. people refuse to believe my messengers. even when i was alive here on earth, they refuse me. what more when i am just talking through somebody else?" (paraphrased). with all the knowledge believers accumulated, he would think that we would be 'enlightened' enough to detect which ones are 'authentic and divine' as opposed to 'evil or man-made'. these signs, these miracles, are you afraid that they are not from god? that these are the signs we should not open our hearts and mind to for thinking they are evil? well, is faith in god evil? is true peace evil? is true love that is divine and pure evil? why can't someone accept that god can do what he wants in fulfillment of his generous love and jesus' never ending forgiveness to those who turn back to him for salvation? why are we refusing god's messenger of this truth? the mother to all who are in christ? what brings us these: fears of being shamed by what others will think or say about us? which, in contrary, could be pleasing to god? fears of being humbled? fears of being judged as wrong (wrt mainstream standard of what is right)? why can't we tolerate non-believers' mockery or ridicule of us for the sake of peace, love and obedience to god? the humbling lessons left to us by martyrs and saints? we'd rather engage in never-ending bickering and disproof of each other's opinion - looking at each other's mistakes - for the sake of arguments, instead of having communion in one body with christ. what makes us go blind to the truth that god is all powerful and that he can not be binded by what people wrote and have written about him in all ages? why is our faith in god limited? by all the words and literature we muster? what prevents us from going *beyond* being saved and extend god's rich love to others who are not? why are our eyes not wide open to see that he continuously sees our faith, hope and love which glorify him and so he gives us indications of his acknowledgements with signs/miracles (ordinary/common or divinely inspired) everywhere? isn't that like an atheist/agnostic's view that all these are just ordinary here on earth and not caused by anything supernatural? why then does the holy mother comes back to remind us: "we must really __accept that prayer__ changes the course of things and that with prayers __even wars can be prevented__." but then she continues: "you often have an egotistic attitude. dear children, in these days you have prayed very much, __but your hands have remained empty__." why hesitate in proclaiming what needs to be done: "prayer, conversion, peace, penance, fasting, the holy mass, living life as what the gospel brings."? why not do so? how? to the world? to this, the mother says: "start in your family. be a good example. live the word." why worry if it is going to be of good use to many? our holy mother says: "the fruits, __leave them to the lord__, do not worry about anything or anyone but entrust yourself to the lord." although the holy mother does not insist because: "you are free; i bow before the freedom which god gives you." but she follows this with: "you are surprised because i say to you: decide for god and yet, see how you have lived this day." why does she constantly conveys: "take this life toward god in the way as to __experience__ the lord himself in your __behavior__ and __not only__ when you pray" or one time when we decide that we are saved, or talk/write about god, etc. the holy mother warns: "satan (the serpent) is always trying to dissuade you to turn you away from my peace plan and prayer." (rev 12:17, the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offsprings, those who keep god's commandments, and bear witness to jesus.) do you have fear or hate for god's current messenger of true peace, love and our motherly protector from the anti-christ? the one who is being apprehensive of communism, wars, famine and other evils that the serpent brings upon us? this obedient and blessed new eve? the mother who warns us so we can be prepared and be strong against satan? haven't there been renewed faith, hope, love, peace and obedience wherever this messenger has shared her blessings and graces that god has given her in good purpose? why do we choose to be blind? why fear the truth that god has been giving us a chance and sharing christ's ever-forgetting forgiveness to us through the obedient mother? the mother who has been consecrated the task __to reverse__ the disobedient harm and example done by the ancient eve. she has been preparing the new eden with her immaculate heart. the new eden as sanctuary (the womb) for the next coming and judgement of the righteous by our lord, jesus christ; when the lamb marries his bride. shouldn't we give her a hand in her exhaustive job of preparing us for the second coming of her son as she has been conceived without sin to bear the son of god in her womb? why fear true peace, love and renewed faith and obedience to god that mary faithfully brings to god's children? she has been protecting the flock (the rest of the offsprings) from the greedy dragon so as to present more righteous members for her son's coming. not all apparitions and miracles that resulted from them are worthy of belief. with prayer and guidance from the holy spirit and, of course, approval of our church authorities, we should be aware of the true and divinely inspired ones; specifically, the ones which aligns with the also, our lady reminds us of recommendation of __silence__ in our prayers: "if you speak unceasingly in your prayers, how will you be able to hear god? allow him room to answer you, to speak to you." she encourages us (with motherly nurturing) to continue in exuberant faith, hope and love to jesus, constantly. not with mere emotions, but with deep, constant obedience to jesus, her beloved son and acknowledgement of our need to have him as part of our lives. let's not wait to the last minute to renew our faith and the life that god wants us to live; when there won't be enough time or when it will be late. nowadays, mary says, "pray, pray, pray for peace...reconciliation, my children." have peace within yourself first before you can promote peace to others. for without peace, you can not fully accept my son." and you think she's just an ordinary lady. not to me. she's our good mother/messenger from god and she is so nice enough to share god's kingdom to us through her son and experience it. with mary, we are assured that the lamb always succeeds. note: all enclosed in quotes are from "latest news of medjugorje" number 10, june, 1991 by fr. rene' laurentin. o, new mother of eden, most pure preparing the sanctuary for true christians cleansing us with peace for god's kingdom come bring us to your loving, protective and obedient church that we may belong in one body to your son, jesus christ, our lord and not go astray from his perfect completeness pray that we ourselves pray with the holy spirit guiding us so that we may help you in strength to conquer the enemies of your son while you prepare us for him with your immaculate heart. 
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 this may be a really dumb one, but i'll ask it anyways: christians know that they can never live up to the requirements of god, right? (i may be wrong, but that is my understanding) but they still try to do it. doesn't it seem like we are spending all of our lives trying to reach a goal we can never achieve? i know that we are saved by faith and not by works, but does that mean that once we are saved we don't have to do anything? i think james tells us that faith without works is dead (paraphrase). how does this work? short reply: we can never achieve perfect health, yet we always strive for it. we don't seek to do god's will because we're forced to, we follow his way because his way is best. the reason it's hard is because we are flawed, not because he's unreasonable. but we seek to follow his way because we want to improve ourselves and our lives. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20964">
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 one of the tell tale signs/fruits that give non-christians away - is when their net replies are acrid, angry and sarcastic. we in the net village do have a laugh or two when professed, born again christians verbally attack people who might otherwise have been won to christianity and had originally joined the discussions because they were "spiritually hungry." instead of answering questions with sweetness and sincerity, these chrisitan net-warriors, "flame" the queries. although i certainly agree with the basic sentiment that snideness is unloving and ineffective, i'm a little disturbed by the formulation that ill temper is not a christian trait. it seems like a false argument to say that anyone who displays trait x must not be a christian. could well be a sinning christian, but a christian nonetheless. anger is human, and christians are human: christians get angry and defensive and react badly just like everyone else. it's not perfect righteousness but the effort of seeking righteousness that marks a dedicated christian. and one of the greatest gifts of faith to me is that of seeking and accepting forgiveness for my failures. expecting flawless behavior from self or others isn't christianity: it's perfectionism. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20967">
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 hello everyone. last week i posted a similar question to alt.wedding. now i come in search of a deeper-level answer. my fiance is lutheran and i am catholic. we plan on getting married in her church because she is living there now and i plan on moving there in a month or so. i called my catholic priest to find out what i needed to do in order for the marriage to be recognized by my church. needless to say that i have found that there is no "hard and fast" rule when it comes to how the catholic law for interfaith weddings is interpreted. but i'm pretty sure that we can get married without too much problem; the trick lies in the letter of dispensation. but that is not why i am here.... what i'd like to know is: what are the main differences between the lutheran and catholic religions? my priest mumbled something about how the eucharist was understood... i have heard that if two religions combine soon, it would be these two. any help would be appreciated... thanks so much! bill burns [ internet: wdburns@mtu.edu ] mac network system administrator [ applelink: shadow ] apple student rep, mtu first we must band together as friends, then mearcilessly crush our enemies into paste. [we've had enough catholic/protestant arguments recently that i'm not going to accept any renewals. i suggest responses via email, unless they are clearly non-controversial. i would be happy to see positive summaries of both important catholic and lutheran beliefs. among other things, they'd be useful for the faq collection. but i'm not up for yet another battle. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20968">
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 i am asking you to believe in things not visible. i don't know if this is believeing blindly or not. .... if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on the evidence of the five physical senses, then you cut reason off from any possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere someone said: "thinking if i could see, i would believe. then someone said believe and you will see!!" 
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 library of congress to host dead sea scroll symposium april 21-22 to: national and assignment desks, daybook editor contact: john sullivan, 202-707-9216, or lucy suddreth, 202-707-9191 both of the library of congress washington, april 19 -- a symposium on the dead sea scrolls will be held at the library of congress on wednesday, april 21, and thursday, april 22. the two-day program, cosponsored by the library and baltimore hebrew university, with additional support from the project judaica foundation, will be held in the library's mumford room, sixth floor, madison building. seating is limited, and admission to any session of the symposium must be requested in writing (see note a). the symposium will be held one week before the public opening of a major exhibition, "scrolls from the dead sea: the ancient library of qumran and modern scholarship," that opens at the library of congress on april 29. on view will be fragmentary scrolls and archaeological artifacts excavated at qumran, on loan from the israel antiquities authority. approximately 50 items from library of congress special collections will augment these materials. the exhibition, on view in the madison gallery, through aug. 1, is made possible by a generous gift from the project judaica foundation of washington, d.c. the dead sea scrolls have been the focus of public and scholarly interest since 1947, when they were discovered in the desert 13 miles east of jerusalem. the symposium will explore the origin and meaning of the scrolls and current scholarship. scholars from diverse academic backgrounds and religious affiliations, will offer their disparate views, ensuring a lively discussion. the symposium schedule includes opening remarks on april 21, at 2 p.m., by librarian of congress james h. billington, and by dr. norma furst, president, baltimore hebrew university. co-chairing the symposium are joseph baumgarten, professor of rabbinic literature and institutions, baltimore hebrew university and michael grunberger, head, hebraic section, library of congress. geza vermes, professor emeritus of jewish studies, oxford university, will give the keynote address on the current state of scroll research, focusing on where we stand today. on the second day, the closing address will be given by shmaryahu talmon, who will propose a research agenda, picking up the theme of how the qumran studies might proceed. on wednesday, april 21, other speakers will include: -- eugene ulrich, professor of hebrew scriptures, university of notre dame and chief editor, biblical scrolls from qumran, on "the bible at qumran;" -- michael stone, national endowment for the humanities distinguished visiting professor of religious studies, university of richmond, on "the dead sea scrolls and the pseudepigrapha." -- from 5 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. a special preview of the exhibition will be given to symposium participants and guests. on thursday, april 22, beginning at 9 a.m., speakers will include: -- magen broshi, curator, shrine of the book, israel museum, jerusalem, on "qumran: the archaeological evidence;" -- p. kyle mccarter, albright professor of biblical and ancient near eastern studies, the johns hopkins university, on "the copper scroll;" -- lawrence h. schiffman, professor of hebrew and judaic studies, new york university, on "the dead sea scrolls and the history of judaism;" and -- james vanderkam, professor of theology, university of notre dame, on "messianism in the scrolls and in early christianity." the thursday afternoon sessions, at 1:30 p.m., include: -- devorah dimant, associate professor of bible and ancient jewish thought, university of haifa, on "qumran manuscripts: library of a jewish community;" -- norman golb, rosenberger professor of jewish history and civilization, oriental institute, university of chicago, on "the current status of the jerusalem origin of the scrolls;" -- shmaryahu talmon, j.l. magnas professor emeritus of biblical studies, hebrew university, jerusalem, on "the essential 'commune of the renewed covenant': how should qumran studies proceed?" will close the symposium. there will be ample time for question and answer periods at the end of each session. also on wednesday, april 21, at 11 a.m.: the library of congress and the israel antiquities authority will hold a lecture by esther boyd-alkalay, consulting conservator, israel antiquities authority, on "preserving the dead sea scrolls" in the mumford room, lm-649, james madison memorial building, the library of congress, 101 independence ave., s.e., washington, d.c. note a: for more information about admission to the symposium, please contact, in writing, dr. michael grunberger, head, hebraic section, african and middle eastern division, library of congress, washington, d.c. 20540. -30- canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian20971">
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 you cannot show, from scripture, that the weekly sabbath is part of the ceremonial laws. before you post a text in reply investigate its context. first of all, "ceremonial law" is an extrascriptural term. it is sometimes used as a framework to view scripture. but if you look at collosions, without going into it with the assumption that the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law, you will see that it does refer to the sabbath. paul writes in collosions 2:14-17 how that christ nailed the laws that were against us to his cross, and therefore we should not be judged in what what food we eat, what we drink, the keeping of new moons and holy days, or the keeping of the sabbath. the word for sabbath in this verse is "sabbaton" and is used throughout the new testament to refer to the 7th day. if there is any scripture from which we get the idea of the ceremonial law, this is one of them, and the sabbath is listed among the ceremonial laws. if one goes into this with the fundamental assumption "the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law" then he will have to find some way around it, like saying that this can only refer to the other sabbath holy days besides the 7th day, because "the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law." but paul is very careful in his letters to add some kind of parenthetcal statement if there is anything that can be seen as a liscence to sin in his writings. also, why is the sabbath absent from the epistles (except for hebrews 4, which talks about the rest that comes through faith?) surely it would have been a big problem for first century christians living in a society that did not rest on the 7th day. especially slaves. many new converst were slaves. it would have been difficult for slaves to rest on the sabbath if it had been mandatory. why is there no mention of this in the epistles? link hudson. 
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 some thoughts: [a. on the non-pacifist side:] (1) killing to defend the innocent may be, if anything, _more_ justifiable than killing in self-defense. i can turn my _own_ other cheek, but i have no right to turn someone else's. (2) it seems to me that if jesus had meant to teach pacifism, he would have made his position more explicit. he didn't tell the centurion to leave the army, for instance; and the nt is full of military metaphors. [b. on the pacifist side:] (1) apparently many early christians refused to fight in the roman army, or stated that one should refuse if given a choice. but it's not clear whether they were objecting to war _per se_, or objecting to roman policies. (2) in modern warfare, it seems to be impossible to direct attacks only at combatants. bombing, both conventional and nuclear, kills lots of civilians. (3) it's hard to tell whether any _particular_ war is justified at the time. often it takes decades for the requisite information to become available to the general public. please, no email replies -- this is meant as a contribution to a public discussion, and anyone wanting to reply should also reply publicly. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 romans 8:28 (rsv) we know that in everything god works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. murphy's law: if anything can go wrong, it will. we are all quite familiar with the amplifications and commentary on murphy's law. but how do we harmonize that with romans 8:28? for that matter, how appropriate is humor contradicted by scripture? i've always taken murphy's law to be an exhortation to prudence, and an observation about the behavior of complex systems, rather than a denial of divine benevolence. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 for all those people who insist i question authority: why? how about: the holocaust the spanish inquisition (just to name a few) ? authorities sometimes tell people to do evil things. people who "just follow orders" have tortured and killed others in very large numbers, and protest their innocence afterwards. when your authority starts telling you to do things, you should ask questions. except for situations of pressing need ("i said shut the hatch because the submarine is filling with water!"), any reasonable authority should be able to give at least some justification that you can understand. just be sure to listen when authority answers. (if anybody is interested in questions of psychological pressure and following orders, you might want to read about a study done by solomon ashe in 1951 on conformity, and another done by stanley milgram in 1963 on obedience. both should be in any good book on psychology/sociology. the results are both fascinating and terrifying.) darren f provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu "we do what we're told we do what we're told we do what we're told told to do" -- peter gabriel 
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 i'm concerned about a recent posting about wbt/sil. i thought they'd pretty much been denounced as a right-wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference, including vietnam and south america. a commission from mexican academia denounced them in 1979 as " a covert political and ideological institution used by the u.s. govt as an instrument of control, regulation, penetration, espionage and repression." i have personally know quite of few of the wycliffe bible translators. as an organization their fundamental purpose is to translate the scriptures into the native languages which in terms usual means learning it and developing a written language (along with teaching the natives to read). it is not associated with the u.s. govt. at all. many governments want the help of the translators. to the best of my knowledge the mexican government now encourages them to come. their idea is not cultural interference but the presentation of the good news. to understand more about what they do, i suggest you read some of the books (autobiographical and biographical) about some of the translators. one that stands out in my mind as an excellent is called "peace child." this would give a true picture of what their mission is. my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc.religion.christian. it's important that christians don't immediately accept every "christian" organization as automatically above reproach. i agree with this statement, but we cannot also accept what others say without looking into the issues. that would be the same as taking suddan's discussion about the cia, etc. as being true. we must look at both sides. cathy bareiss 
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 helllo netters: i was told the bible says that god took the body of the virgin mary as she was being carried for burial. is this true, if so were in the bible does it say that. a.faris [i think you're talking about the "assumption of the blessed virgin mary". it says that "the immaculate mother of god, the ever virgin mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." this was defined by a papal statement in 1950, though it had certainly been believed by some before that. like the immaculate conception, this is primarily a roman catholic doctrine, and like it, it has no direct biblical support. note that catholics do not believe in "sola scriptura". that is, they do not believe that the bible is the only source of christian knowledge. thus the fact that a doctrine has little biblical support is not necessarily significant to them. they believe that truth can be passed on through traditions of the church, and also that it can be revealed to the church. i'm not interested in yet another catholic/protestant argument, but if any catholics can tell us the basis for these beliefs, i think it would be appropriate. --clh] again i find myself wanting to respond to a posting and having neither the time nor the proper materials with me (you would think i would learn my lesson by now--but i'm trying to finish writing my thesis and don't have tons of time. anyway...) the basis for our (the catholic church's) belief in the assumption of mary, body and soul, into heaven is that, to put it simply, the apostles and all the early generation christians believed it. in fact, throughout their ministry the apostles kept in close contact with mary, and 11 of the 12 were present when she died. only thomas was missing--when he arrived several days later, he asked to be shown her body, and moved with pity, peter and several of the other apostles brought him to her tomb. when they arrived the seal was still unbroken. they broke the seal, entered, and the body was missing. there was no sign that anyone had entered, forcibly or otherwise, and everything else was laid out exactly as it had been left. the apostles present all believed that mary was assumed into heaven--and the apostles taught this in their preaching (of course, this does not appear in any of the texts currently considered part of the bible, but it does appear in other writings left behind by several of them.) basicaly, as an apostolic church (ie. founded by the apostles), we believe that the teachings of the apostles, whether written down in the bible or written down in other sources, is true, providing that the authenticity of those other sources can be confirmed. at least in the case of the assumption of mary, the authenticity is quite clear. hope this helps--i would welcome anyone who has more information to add to what i've said. - mike walker mdw33310@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (univ. of illinois) 
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 i have seen the claims, but i don't know if there are any authenticated cases of people making prolonged speeches in real languages they don't know. from my observations, "speaking in tongues" in practice has nothing at all do with this. i have a simple test. i take several people who can speak only one language (e.g. chinese, russian, german, english). then i let the "gifted one" start "speaking in toungues". the audience should understand the "gifted one" clearly in their native language. however, the "gifted one" can only hear himself speaking in his own language. works everytime. 8-) perhaps i would believe the "gifted ones" more if they were glorifying god rather than themselves. then perhaps we'd witness a real miracle. mark ashley |disclaimer: my opinions. not harris' marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com | the lost los angelino | 
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 the movie version of "the last temptation of christ" was so awful that practically no one would have seen it, or been influenced by its message, had not conservatives loudly protested its distribution. they unwittingly created a larger market for the movie. in many places, christians were sucessful in their attempts to get the films banned, or at least given a very restrictive i have no problem with christians burning their own pieces of art (though i find it a tragic waste). i do however have a problem with their attempts to censor what i may or may not clive p a u l m o l o n e y come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - geoffm 
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 the god of peace will soon crush satan under your feet. the grace of our lord jesus be with you. romans 16:20 
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 _my advocate_ i sinned. and straightway, posthaste, satan flew before the presence of the most high god and made a railing accusation there. he said, "this soul, this thing of clay and sod, has sinned. 'tis true that he has named thy name; but i demand his death, for thou hast said, 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die.' shall not thy sentence be fulfilled? is justice dead? send now this wretched sinner to his doom! what other thing can righteous ruler do?" thus satan did accuse me day and night; and every word he spoke, o god, was true! then quickly one rose up from god's right hand, before whose glory angels veiled their eyes; he spoke, "each jot and tittle of the law must be fulfilled; the guilty sinner dies! but wait -- suppose his guilt were all transferred to me and that i paid his penalty! behold my hands, my side, my feet! one day i was made sin for him and died that he might be presented, faultless, at thy throne!" and satan flew away. full well he knew that he could not prevail against such love, for every word my dear lord spoke was true! by martha snell nicholson i heard this poem read last night and wanted to share it with other subscribers of this newsgroup. it's such a wonderful blessing to see how secure our salvation is because the lord jesus paid for what he did not owe because we had a debt which we were not capable to pay. thanks and praise be to the savior, the lord jesus christ, who is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high, making intercession for us. liane brown (internet) brownli@ohsu.edu 
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 my, my, my. i knew that i would receive a response to my post, but not this extensive. thank you to all who responded; it at least showed that people were willing to think about it, even though the general response was a return to the same old "why should it matter?" question. to those of you who were a part of this response, i suggest that you read the articles covering this same question in soc.culture.african.american, for you are in dire need of some cultural enlightenment. hasta luego 
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 04 may 93, d. andrew byler writes to all: dab> i think i need to again post the athanasian creed, whicc pretty well dab> delinieates orthodox christian belief on the trinity, and on the dab> incarnation. dab> it's a pretty good statement of the beliefs eventually accpeted, and the dab> creed is in use by the catholic church, as well as the lutheran, dab> anglican, and orthodox churches (the last minus the filioque, which they dab> delete from the original form of the creed). do you have any evidence that it is used by the orthodox churches? as far as i know it is purely western, like the "apostles' creed". the orthodox churches use the "symbol of faith", commonly called "the nicene creed". steve hayes department of missiology university of south africa --- golded 2.40 
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 {:> your roommate is correct. the immaculate conception refers to {:> the conception of mary in her mother's womb. okay, now that we've defined the immaculate conception doctrine would it be possible for those more knowledgeable in the area to give the biblically or other support for it. i've attempted to come to terms with it previously (in an attempt to understand it for learning purposes) and haven't been able to grasp the reasoning. it was a gift from god. i think basically the reasoning was that the tradition in the church held that mary was also without sin as was jesus. as the tenets of faith developed, particularly with augustine, sin was more and more equated with sex, and thus mary was assumed to be a virgin for life (since she never sinned, and since she was the spouse of god, etc.) since we also had this notion of original sin, ie. that man is born with a predisposition to sin, and since mary did not have this predisposition because she did not ever sin, she didn't have original sin. when science discovered the process of conception, the next step was to assume that mary was conceived without original sin, the immaculate conception. mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes. she refered to herself as the immaculate conception. since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine, the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine. rcs hold that all revelation comes from two equally important sources, that being sacred scripture and holy tradition. in this case, mostly tradition. joe moore 
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 it's my understanding that the u.s. supreme court has never given a legal definition of religion. this despite the many cases involving religion that have come before the court. can anyone verify or falsify this? has any state or other government tried to give a legal definition of religion? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21328">
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 note: i am cross-posting (actually, emailing) this to bit.listserv.catholic while main posting goes to soc.religion.christian. [quotations omitted. this is in response to a question about the immaculate conception. i explained it, but left justification up to our catholic readers. --clh] there is no direct reference in the holy scripture except for the mention of mary's _blessedness_/full of grace in the "annunciation" by angel gabriel in luke 1:26-28 and in the 6th month the angel gabriel was sent from god unto a city of galilee, named nazareth. to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was joseph, of the house of david; and the virgin's name was mary. and the angel came unto her and said, _"hail, thou that art highly favoured, the lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."_ now, now, hold that line of thought - "the lord is with mary & blessed art thou among women" - while you read on.... in the book, "first lady of the world, a popular history of devotion to mary" by peter lappin: the _immaculate conception_ matter is really far more complicated than the _assumption_. this arose in 430 ad. it is quite possible that the feast of _mary's conception_ under the title "the conception of saint anne", originally commemorated the _physical miracle_ of a woman _beyond the age_ of child bearing, conceiving a daughter, just as elizabeth had conceived john the baptist. a transfer in emphasis from the physical miracle wrought in anne to the miracle of grace wrought by god in the soul of mary was _logical_. mary is the incorruptible timber "out of which was hewn the _tabernacle_ of christ's sinless body"; she is "god's eden, in whom there is no tree of knowledge, and no serpent that harms." her perfect beauty and spotlessness find their exemplar in christ, her purity in that of the father. at the time of the council of ephesus, she was hailed as "innocent, without blemish, immaculate, inviolate, spotless, holy in soul and body, who was blessed as a lily from among thorns, unlearned in the evil ways of eve". at the end of the thirteenth century, an irish franciscan, john duns scotus (1266-1308),...god maintained that it was a greater thing for him to preserve his (the son) mother from all sin _than to use his power to clease her from it later_. now let's go to the discussion of baptism and original sin. from "pocket catholic cathechism" by john a. hardon: baptism - concupiscence remains after baptism. concupiscence or the tendency to sin remains in the baptized but since it is left to provide trial, it has no power to injure those who do not consent and who by the grace of christ jesus, manfully resist (canon 5). original gifts of adam and eve before their fall: in the light of the foregoing, we see that our first parents were originally gifted three times over: -they had the natural gifts of human beings especially the power to think and to choose freely. -the had the _preternatural_ gifts of bodily immortality and of integrity, or the internal power to control desires. -they had the _supernatural_ gifts of sanctifying grace, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity and the corresponding title to enter heaven. by their disobedience, they lost the _supernatural and preternatural_ gifts entirely, and were weakened (without losing) their natural capacity to reason and to choose baptism restores the _supernatural_ life lost by adam's sin. it _does not_ restore the _preternatural_ gifts but gifts as a title to a glorified restoration of our bodies on the last day... going back to _immaculate conception_ (i am not sure if this interpretation is in any other books but it may be another contribution to the 'puzzle'): given the miracle of st. anne bearing a child at a non-childbearing age, and christ was not yet born and _there was no baptism yet_ on mary's birth but still, the angel gabriel's greetings was: "hail mary, full of grace, the lord is with you. blessed art thou amongst women". even mary was confused about this greeting. mary could very well have possessed all of the _treefold original gifts above_ given to our first parents (adam and eve before their sin): hail mary (example of praise given by the angel gabriel) full of grace (natural, preternatural, supernatural) the lord is with you (at those times, god would definitely want to be with those he has made _blessed_) blessed art thou amongst women (that says it all) at the conception, god made mary _full of grace and blessed_ as the 'tabernacle' for the coming body of christ and so, immaculate conception of mary is true and mary still has maintained her immaculate heart. (p.s. i do hope that others will continue more light and facts on this matter. thanks.) 
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 here's a question that some friends and i were debating last night. q: if you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead, would you remain a christian? (reasoning pertinent to believing xians deleted for space) it strikes me, for no apparent reason, that this is reversible. i.e., if i had proof that there existed a hell, in which i would be eternally punished for not believing in life, would that make me a xian? (pardon my language) _bloody_hell_no_! ...of course, being merely a reversal of your thinking, this doesn't add anything _new_ to the debate, but... several friends disagreed, arguing the fear of hell was necessary to motivate people to christianity. to me that fatally undercuts the message that god is love. a point very well taken, imnsho. "successful terrorism is called revolution, and is admired by history. unsuccessful terrorism is just lowly, cowardly terrorism." - phil trodwell on alt.atheism 
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 [ ... about tongues ... ] the concept of tongues as used at pentecost seems an outdated concept now. with the bible available in nearly every language, and missionaries who are out there in all languages, why does the church need tongues? i guess there are at least some people who are not able to support this claim. there are still a lot of languages without the bible, or a part of the bible. there are still many languages which we are not able to write, simply because the written version of the language has not yet been defined! i guess this is one of the main goals for wycliffe bible translators: to define rules and a grammar for writing the 'rest' of the languages of this world. i do not see that any of them will have any reason to become unemployed during the foreseeable future. (provided they get their neccessary support!) and still they are one of the 3 largest missionary organizations of the world. s-mail: e-mail: | | | bjorn b. larsen bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no |__ |__ | sintef delab | \| \| n-7034 trondheim tel: +47-7-592682 / 592600 |__/|__/|_ norway fax: +47-7-591039 / 594302 
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 ...there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth. the apostle paul (romans 9:11) points out that god chose jacob rather than esau to be the ancestor of the covenant people and ultimately of the messiah, and that he made this choice while the two boys were still in their mother's womb, and therefore could not possibly have done anything good or evil to deserve their appointed destinies. if we admit the possibility that they had lived previous lives, and that (in accordance with the asiatic idea of "karma") their present lives are a reward or punishment for past behaviour, this makes nonsense of paul's whole point. the existence of repeated earth lives and destiny (karma) does not mean that everything that happens is predetermined by past deeds. there is an oriental view of it that tends in that direction, but i did not subscribe to that view. god may choose one individual over another as the fit instrument for his plans, but that does not preclude that the development of that individual into what he is in this earthly life is not the result of a longer course of development. i do not, and rudolf steiner did not, subscribe to the oriental view of an inexorable, mechanistic karma determining everything that befalls one. this is a kind of shriveled caricature of a much greater law in the context of which the deed of christ on golgotha and the ultimate salvation and freedom of the human being as a working of christ can be seen as the master theme and, indeed, a new impulse that was completely free of karma. christ incarnated only once in the flesh, and in that he had no debt of karma or sin. the oriental concepts of reincarnation and karma, which are even more trivialized and mechanized in some new age teachings, incorrectly assume jesus christ to have been the reincarnation of a master. avatar, etc. their teaching of reincarnation and karma also has no concept the continuing individuality from one life to the next (e.g. buddhism). more important, they have no concept of the resurrection of the body, the ultimate continuity of the whole human being -- to ultimate resurrection and judgement on the last day. there is another biblical passage that also has a bearing. it is the tenth chapter of john, devoted almost entirely to the man born blind. clearly here, jesus tells the disciples that it was not his past karma or that of his parents that led to his blindness, but rather that a new impulse is to be revealed through him. but note that he does not refute the disciples' question. in fact, they ask it as a matter of course, the question being stated as if it were self evident that only one of two possibilities existed - it was either the sins of the man himself, obviously not in this incarnation, or the sins of his parents. the fact that they even asked about the first possibility at all indicates an awareness of the idea on their part and the form of christ's answer indicates that he did not disagree with it. there is also matthew 11:14, where jesus says straight out about john the baptist, "if you care to accept it, he himself is elias, who was to come." this also emphasizes that the gospels do not have a positive teaching either way about reincarnation -- or, in fact, about what happens to the human being at all between death and the last day. even jesus did not push this teaching on people who were not ready to embrace it ("if you care to accept it"). so i took care to point out, not that the bible teaches reincarnation but that it does not deny it either, and that much in both scripture and fundamental christian doctrine becomes understandable if reincarnation is understood in the right way. i pointedly used "repeated earth lives" to distinguish a little from the oriental doctrines usually associated with the word "reincarnation". the phrase is rudolf steiner's (wiederholte erdenleben). he noted too that the idea needed to arise as a new insight in the west, completely free from eastern tradition. it did in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the most important expression of it being lessing's "the education of the human race". to return to your original point, paul's statement about jacob and esau does not contradict the idea of repeated earth lives and karma. and both of these principles receive their fulfillment in the incarnation, death, and resurrection, ascension and return of jesus christ, in my view. gerry palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 
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 i have a simple test. i take several people who can speak only one language (e.g. chinese, russian, german, english). then i let the "gifted one" start "speaking in toungues". the audience should understand the "gifted one" clearly in their native language. however, the "gifted one" can only hear himself speaking in his own language. that would be neat, but nowhere in the bible does it say that one who has the gift of tounges can do this. if the gift of tounges were the ability to be understood by everyone, no matter what languages they know, there would be no need for the gift of interpretation, and i corinthians 14 would not have had to have been written. perhaps i would believe the "gifted ones" more if they were glorifying god rather than themselves. then perhaps we'd witness a real miracle. that's a pretty harsh assumption to make about a several million christians world wide. sure, there are some who want glory for themselves who speak in tounges, just as there are among those who do not have this gift. there were people like this in the corinthian church also. that does not mean that there is no true gift or that all who speak in tounges do it for their own glory in the sight of men. i would venture to say that a large percentage of those who do speak in tounges do so more often in private prayer than in public. link hudson [there were apparently those in the early church who claimed that at pentecost the miracle was that the crowd were all given the ability to understand the apostles speaking in greek. --clh] 
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 undoubtedly people adopt atheism for many reasons, but i suspect that a biggie is that the god they've believed in is (in j.b. phillips's words) "too small". if a person's understanding of god is not allowed to grow and develop, it will eventually become inadequate. the grey-haired gentleman on a throne who was a comforting image in childhood becomes a joke. a therapist friend of mine sometimes suggests to her clients that they "fire god". what she means by that is letting go of an inadequate understanding of god to make room for a fuller one. but she follows up by encouraging them to "hire a new one". my guess is that a lot of folks go through the firing process, but are not adequately supported in the subsequent re-hire. 
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 sun075!gerry.palo@uunet.uu.net (gerry palo) writes:>between adam and eve and golgotha the whole process of the fall of man occurred. this involved a gradual dimming of consciousness of the spiritual this was precisely my point. from a theological bent, those who lived immediately after the flood, such as noah, ham, his son cush, and his son nimrod had a much stronger appreciation of divine wrath. they also had a stronger understanding of the true god. in fact, this immediacy was a cause of hardship for some, so much so that atlas, who is seen with heavens resting on his shoulders. but this is not merely the physical heavens that he is lifting. it is to put god and the strict spirituality of his law at a distance, and thus he became the "elevator of the heavens." this "god" made men able to "feel" as if heaven were afar off and "as if either the god of heaven could not see through the dark cloud, or did not regard with displeasure the breakers of his laws." it is interesting to see that it was that was titled "emancipator" or "deliverer" or phoroneus. it was nimrod who invaded the patriarchal system and abridged the liberties of mankind, yet was worship for having given many benefits. he was a deliverer all right but not as we think of christ as a deliverer. one delivered from a conscious feeling of god's wrath, the other actually performed a delivery from gods wrath and it is up to us to accept it as true. the question of what happens to human beings who died before christ is an ever present one with christians. i am not ready to consign adam or abraham, or even cain to eternal damnation. i don't see the problem. from the time of adam, those who looked forward to the coming "anointed one" and put their faith in the fact that it was god who was to do the provision, were accounted as righteous. but up to the crucifixion, their sins were only covered, not taken away. therefore, the dispensation of the church views the accountability of sin the same, but see it as a completed action. rom's makes it clear that it has always been salvation via faith and nothing else. it is possible to experience eternity in a passing moment. the relationship of eternity to duration is not simply one of indefinitely extended conditions of greenwich mean time. i understand what you're trying to convey, but i don't think i'd lay hold of it because the scriptures do equate the eternality of the second death with the eternality of, say the church ruling with christ. jn 17 tells us what eternal life is exactly, as you are correct that it is much more than non-cessation of it was also a standard belief among many peoples that even the righteous were lost. it depends upon your def of "lost." the elect were lost only in time as outside of time they had been chosen from the foundation of the world. existentially we were all born "lost", but the "righteous" were "in christ" and therefore never *assuredly* lost. it would be interesting to share in the results of your studies of ancient people's ideas of life after death. maybe this summer i could find time to put together a paper on it. i simply have to buy more books for myself, and these older books are very expensive. either that or countless trips to the oriental museum. mankind fell into mist and darkness, and at "the turning point of time" a new light entered into the world. the light still grows, and we are developing the eyes with which to see by it. much new revelation and growth in under- standing lies before us. our new vision and understanding is still very feeble, but it contains something new that will grow in time to embrace that which is old and much more as well. couldn't agree with you more. our understanding, of say eschatology, is clearly clearer than that of, say isaiah. but that is not what i was referring (at this point i should acknowledge openly my debt to the work of rudolf steiner, founder of anthroposophy, for many insights that have led me to my views on this subject). the way you refer to it as "doctrine" puts a modern intellectual coloring on it. i think it was much less abstract and much more real and spiritually concrete, a teaching that struck much closer to home than our doctrines or teachings today can be received. no, i understand it as you have said. this was my point. i am not so ready to attribute widespread notions in antiquity to simple dispersion from an original source. even if they were passed on, the question is, to what extent did they reflect real perception and experience? ah! this is it. this is the big question. however, i would say, again i think, that the best lie is one that has an appreciable amount of truth to it. look at satan's twist of god's word when he coerced eve. that is a very interesting study. the similarity in the midst of great variety of expression of the different people's ideas of the time immediately after death testifies to the presence of an underlying reality. yes, that is my point. but it is a two edged sword. for some do not want the underlying reality to be revealed. they were not known as "mystery" religions for no reason. there was the public side of them and there was the private side, that was so protected that the initiates to an oath of death if they revealed that private side. that is why it is so hard to bring their teachings to light. the "mystery of iniquity" that we find in the bible, correlates to this i think. the primary object of the mysteries was to introduce privately, little by little, under the seal of secrecy and sanction of oath, what it would not have been safe to openly profess was the true religion. case in point today might be the masons. (just a note, that they too worshipped osiris in egypt, who can be traced to nimrod, the "husband son.") on the other hand, there is one notion firmly embedded in christianity that originated most definitely in a pagan source. the idea that the human being consists essentially of soul only, and that the soul is created at birth, was consciously adopted from aristotle, whose ideas dominated christian thought for fifteen hundred years and still does no, i disagree with you here gerry. i know what you're alluding to in that the church, primarily the rcc, did endorse aristotelian philosophy into their worldview, but i would disagree with you that it originated in greece. if you are a student of history, you will come to see that much of what greece came to expound to the world as their original, was just an adulteration of that which they had taken from conquered countries. the soul is clearly mentioned and discussed at length in the egyptian religions. as was the unity of god and also the trinity of god. see if you can find wilkinson's "egyptians." he really does a number on what the greeks did to what they "pilfered" from the he was at once the father of modern thought and at the same time lived during that darkened time when the perception of our eternal spiritual being had grown dim. i'm not knocking aristotle or plato or any other greek thinker. its just that "there is nothing new under the sun." indeed. i should also clarify that i do not deny that eternal irrevocable damnation is a real possibility. but the narrow range in which we conceive of the decisive moment, i.e. after the end of a single earthly life, is not in my mind sufficient to embrace the reality, and i think that is why the early creeds were couched in terms that did not try to spell it out. each age has its own focus of theology. the early church struggled with the trinitarian formulation. the reformation dealt with authority. today, eschatology has had much study. the early creeds do not spell these things out in detail because, 1) they weren't the topic of concern, 2) there was insufficient wisdom accumulated, 3) they didn't have the exegetical tools that we have today. also, each age seems to have an air of revelation to it. one age has a well tended and cultivated garden in which a particular doctrine is given growth. it would be natural for the end of times to have the garden appropriate for the growth of eschatology, wouldn't it? tangents, never ending tangents, 
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 hello src readers, again the misconception that copts among other oriental orthodox churches believe in monophysitism pops up again. we had a discussion about it a while ago. the proper term for what mike expresses is monophysitism. this was a heresy that was condemned in the council of chalcedon in 451 ad. it grew up in reaction to nestorianism, which held that the son and jesus are two different people who happened to be united in the same body temporarily. monophysitism is held by the copts of egypt and ethipoia and by the jacobites of syria and the armenian orthodox. then ofm comments : [these issues get mighty subtle. when you see people saying different things it's often hard to tell whether they really mean seriously different things, or whether they are using different terminology. i don't think there's any question that there is a problem with nestorius, and i would agree that the saying christ had a human form without a real human nature or will is heretical. but i'd like to be a bit wary about the copts, armenians, etc. recent discussions suggest that their monophysite position may not be as far from orthodoxy as many had thought. with my appreciation to the moderator, i believe that further elaboration is needed. this is an excerpt from an article featured in the first issue of the copt-net newsletter : under the authority of the eastern roman empire of constantinople (as opposed to the western empire of rome), the patriarchs and popes of alexandria played leading roles in christian theology. they were invited everywhere to speak about the christian faith. st. cyril, pope of alexandria, was the head of the ecumenical council which was held in ephesus in the year 430 a.d. it was said that the bishops of the church of alexandria did nothing but spend all their time in meetings. this leading role, however, did not fare well when politics started to intermingle with church affairs. it all started when the emperor marcianus interfered with matters of faith in the church. the response of st. dioscorus, the pope of alexandria who was later exiled, to this interference was clear: "you have nothing to do with the church." these political motives became even more apparent in chalcedon in 451, when the coptic church was unfairly accused of following the teachings of eutyches, who believed in monophysitism. this doctrine maintains that the lord jesus christ has only one nature, the divine, not two natures, the human as well as the divine. the coptic church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the council of chalcedon! in that council, monophysitism meant believing in one nature. copts believe that the lord is perfect in his divinity, and he is perfect in his humanity, but his divinity and his humanity were united in one nature called "the nature of the incarnate word", which was reiterated by st. cyril of alexandria. copts, thus, believe in two natures "human" and "divine" that are united in one "without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration" (from the declaration of faith at the end of the coptic divine liturgy). these two natures "did not separate for a moment or the twinkling of an eye" (also from the declaration of faith at the end of the coptic divine liturgy). the coptic church was misunderstood in the 5th century at the council of chalcedon. perhaps the council understood the church correctly, but they wanted to exile the church, to isolate it and to abolish the egyptian, independent pope. despite all of this, the coptic church has remained very strict and steadfast in its faith. whether it was a conspiracy from the western churches to exile the coptic church as a punishment for its refusal to be politically influenced, or whether pope dioscurus didn't quite go the extra mile to make the point that copts are not monophysite, the coptic church has always felt a mandate to reconcile "semantic" differences between all christian churches. this is aptly expressed by the current 117th successor of st. mark, pope shenouda iii: "to the coptic church, faith is more important than anything, and others must know that semantics and terminology are of little importance to us." throughout this century, the coptic church has played an important role in the ecumenical movement. the coptic church is one of the founders of the world council of churches. it has remained a member of that council since 1948 a.d. the coptic church is a member of the all african council of churches (aacc) and the middle east council of churches (mecc). the church plays an important role in the christian movement by conducting dialogues aiming at resolving the theological differences with the catholic, greek orthodox, presbyterian, and evangelical churches. as a final note, the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology, in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned. so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in / nabil ayoub ____/ __ / ____/ / / engine research center / / / / / / dept. of mechanical engineering ___/ __ / / / / university of wisconsin-madison / / | / / / email:ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu _____/ __/ _| _____/ / [as i mentioned in a brief apology, the comment quoted above from me is confused. i appear to say that nestorius was monophysite. as andrew byler correctly stated it, the nestorians and monophysites were actually opposite parties. the point i was making, which nabil explains in some detail, is that some groups that have been considered heretical probably aren't. chalcedon was a compromise between two groups, the alexandrians and antiochenes. it adopted language that was intended to be acceptable to moderates in both camps, while ruling out the extremes. i agree that there were extremes that were heretical. however in the course of the complex politics of the time, it appears that some people got rejected who didn't intend heresy, but simply used language that was not understood or even was mispresented. and some seem not to have jointed in the compromise for reasons other than doctrine. there are groups descended from both of the supposedly heretical camps. this posting discussed the descendants of the alexandrians. there are also a remaining nestorians. like some of the current so-called monophysites, there is reason to believe that the current so-called nestorians are not heretical either. they sheltered nestorius from what they saw as unfair treatment, but claim they did not adopt his heresies, and in fact seem to follow more moderate representatives of the antiochene tradition. --clh] 
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 on 2 may 93 13:53:23 gmt, damon@math.okstate.edu (hastings damon tod) said: a christian friend of mine once reasoned that if we were never created, then we could not exist. therefore we were created, and therefore there exists a is this statement considered to be a valid proof by many christians (and followers of other religions, i suppose)? [rest deleted] some variant is quite popular. this, and other arguments, are discussed in john leslie mackie's "the miracle of theism: arguments for and against the existence of god". although mackie ultimately sides with "against", his arguments are, i think, quite fair to both sides. brief discussions can be found in the alt.atheism faqs. bruce cmsr, university of liverpool 
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 as the moderator noted, i think you mean the assumption. catholics believe that the blessed virgin mary went to heaven body *and* soul at the end of her life. this is unusual because the normal course of events is for your body to decay in the grave and stay that way until the resurrection of the dead. well, it wasn't that way for enoch and elijah, both of whom were translated directly into heaven. it's beyond my grasp why some object that mary, who was far greater than either enoch or elijah, should not benefit from the same privelege they recieved. she was after all, mother of god, full of grace, and immaculate. historically, belief in the assumption can be found in the writings of st. gregory of tours (late 6th century). and in st. germain of constantinople and st. john of damascus, and in st. andrew of crete, among others. and it should be noted that the monophysite chruches of egypt and syria also hold to this belief as part of divine revelation, even though they broke away from the unity of the chruch in 451 ad by rejecting the council of chalcedon. it might be argued by some protestants that the catholics and orthodox made this belief up, but the monophysites, put a big hole in that notion, as they also hold the belief, and they split from the chruch before the belief was first annunciated in writing (as far as is known, much has been lost from the time of the fathers). andy byler 
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 do you mean that your fellow christians tend to find you wacky? maybe they're right. you might be interested in franky schaeffer's books about what philistines american christians are: _addicted to mediocrity_ and more recently _sham pearls for real swine_. one day a few years ago franky schaeffer walked into a greek orthodox church. he is now an orthodox christian. so is his mother and if his father, fransis schaeffer, had not passed away he too would have come into the church. franky, like many americans who have recently found the orthodox church, described the experience as finally coming home after a long jouney through a desert. you should also read the book "becoming orthodox" by peter gillquist. it describes the long journey of some 2000 weary evangelical protestants to the orthodox church. come taste and see how good the lord is. timothy richardson rich0043@student.tc.umn.edu 
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 michael bushnell writes; the so-called creed of athanasius, however, has always been a western creed, and has always had the filioque. the orthodox have said that they accept all that it says, with the exception of the filioque, but it is not "in use." which is exactly what i pointed out. (though i was wrong about your use of the creed, the 1913 catholic encylcopedia in which i read about it said the orthodox do use the creed minus the filioque. apparently that has changed.) the athanasian creed has always had the filioque, the nicene - constantinopolitan did not. of course the orthodox did not delete the filioque from the nicene creed (it wasn't there to begin with), but they certainly did from the athanasian creed, which did have it from the beginning. i might point out that the whole problem started over the difference in ways of explaining the generation of the blessed trinity, the east emphasizing the idea of the holy spirit proceeding from the father through the son, and the west using proceeding from the father and the son. in fact, some, such as tertullian, used both formulations (see below) "following, therefore, the form of these examples, i profess that i do call god and his word, - the father and and his son, - two. for the root and the stem are two things, but conjoined; the fountain and the river are two kinds, but indivisible; the sun and the ray are two forms, but coherent ones. anything which proceeds from another must necessarily be a second to that from which it proceeds; but it is not on that account separated from it. where there is second, however, there are two; and where ther is third, there are three. the spirit, then, is third from god and the son, just as the third from the root is the fruit of the stem, and third from the fountain is the stream from the river, and thrid from the sun is the apex of the ray." -tertullian, against praxeas, 8, 5 (about 213 ad) "i believe that the spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the father through the son" -tertullian, against praxeas, 4, 1 (about 213 ad) and as st. thomas showed in his summa theologica part 1, question 36, articles 2 and 3, there is no contradiction between the two methods of generation, and in fact, the two methods of reckoning the procession emphasize what st. augustine, among others taught, that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son, but he proceeds from the father in a more preeminent way. "for whatever the son has, he has from the father, certainly he has it from the father that the holy spirit proceeds from him ... for the father alone is not from another, for which reason he alone is called unbegotten, not, indeed, in the scriptures, but in the practice of theologians, and of those who employ such terms as they are able in a matter so great. the son, however, is born of the father; and the holy spirit proceeds principally from the father, and since the father gives to the son all that he has without any interval of time, the holy spirit proceeds jointly from both father and son. he would be called son of the father and of the son if, which is abhorent to everyone of sound mind, they had both begotten him. the spirit was not begotten by each, however, but proceeds from each and both." -st. augustine of hippo, the trinity, 15, 26, 47 (400 to 416 ad) so, in a sense, all of the formulations are correct (to the west at least), because the holy spirit proceeds from both father and son, but in proceeding from the son, the orgin of that procession is the procession from the father, so the holy spirit is proceeding from the father through the son, but as all that the son has is from the father, the holy spirit can be said to proceed from the father, without any mention of the son being necessary. in any case, i am happy to know that i follow in the beliefs of pope st. leo i, st. fulgence of ruspe, st. cyril of alexandria, pope st. damsus i, st. augustine of hippo, st. epiphanius of salamis, st. ambrose of milan, st. hilary of poitiers, tertullian, and others among the fathers, who all have very quotable quotes supporting the catholic position, which i enunciated above. as for the issue of the adoption of another creed being forbidden, i will point out that the holy fathers of ephesus and chalcedon both spoke of the creed of nicea in their statement forbidding anyone "to produce, write, or compose a confession of faith other than the one defined by the fathers of nicea." that creed is a different creed than that of constantinople, which is commonly called the nicene creed. not of course in that they were condemning the adoption of the constantinopolitan creed, which is but an enlargement upon the creed of nicea, but that they were condemning the impious opinions of nestorious, who had adopted a radically different creed from the one used by the church, which among other things denied the procession of the holy spirit form the son. thus, the additions of the constantinopolitan creed were not thought to be in violation of this, and as the council chalcedon also affirmed the doctrine of the procession of the holy spirit from the son, which nestorius denied, they could hardly have been against explaining in a fuller way the creed, for they themselves approved of previous additions to it. and if the further explanations of the creed made in constantinople were not denigrating of the work done by the holy fathers of nicea or in any way heretical, it follows that the council of toledo was fully able to add what was not disputed by the faithful to the creed so as to combat the impieties of the arians in spain, because the filioque was not in dispute in the church until many years later under photius and others. and that the filioque was not disputed, i provide more quotes below. "since the holy spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to god, and he actually proceeds from the father and son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it." -st. cyril of alexandria, the treasury of the holy and consubstantial trinity, thesis 34, (423-425 ad) "the holy spirit is not of the father only, or of the son only, but he is the spirit of the father and the son. for it is written: `if anyone loves the world, the spirit of the father is not in him'; and again it is written: `if anyone, however, does not have the spirit of christ, he is none of his.' when the father and the son are named in this way, the holy spirit is understood, of whom the son himself says in the gospel, that the holy spirit `proceeds from the father,' and that `he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you.'" -pope st. damasus i, the decree of damasus, 1 (382 ad) "the only-begotten holy spirit has neither the name of the son nor the appelation of father, but is called holy spirit, and is not foreign to the father. for the only-begotten himself calls him: `the spirit of the father,' and says of him the `he proceeds from the father,' and `will receive of mine,' so that he is reckoned as not being foreign to the son, but is of their same substance, of the same godhead; he is spirit divine, ... of god, and he is god. for he is spirit of god, spirit of the father, and spirit of the son, not by some kind of synthesis, like soul and body in us, but in the midst of father and son of the father and of the son, a third by appelation.... "the father always existed and the son always existed, and the spirit breathes from the father and the son; and neither is the son created nor is the spirit created." -st. epiphanius of salamis (which is on cyprus), the man well-anchored, 8 and 75 (374 ad) "concerning the holy spirit, i ought not to remain silent, nor yet is it necessary to speak. still, on account of those who do not know him, it is not possible for me to be silent. however it is necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the father and the son, his sources." -st. hilary of poitiers, the trintiy, 2, 29 (356 to 359 ad) thus, as i have pointed out before, gaul, spain, italy, africa, egypt, palastine, and the lands of the greeks, all of christnedom at that time, all have fathers who can be cited to show that they confess the doctrine expressed by the filioque. i suggest to those of the orthodox church that they come up with some of the fathers, besides st. john of damascus who all will admit denied the filioque, to support their views. it is not enough to bring up the "proceeds from the father" line of the creed or the gospel of john, for that says what we believe also. but it does not say the holy spirit does not proceed from the son, only that he does proceed from the father. andy byler 
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 |> 4) "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (rev. 21.27). therefore, |> babies are born in such a state that should they die, they are cuf off |> from god and put in hell, oh, that must explain matthew 18: 1) in that hour came the disciples unto jesus, saying, "who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2) and he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, 3) and said, "verily i say unto you, except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 14) even so it is not the will of your father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. nice thing about the bible, you don't have to invent a bunch of convoluted rationalizations to understand it, unlike your arguments for original sin. face it, original sin was thought up long after the bible had been written and has no basis from the scriptures. 
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 : are the serbs doing the work of god? hmm... are you suggesting that god supports genocide? perhaps the germans were "punishing" jews on god's behalf? any god who works that way is indescribably evil, and unworthy of my worship or faith. you might want to re-think your attitude about the holocaust after reading deuteronomy chapter 28. tom price | tp0x@cs.cmu.edu | free will? what free will? 
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 |> imagine the worst depth of despair you've |> ever encountered, or the worst physical pain you've ever experienced. |> some people suffer such emotional, physical, and mental anguish |> in their lives that their deaths seem to be merciful. but at least |> the pain does end in death. what if you lived a hundred such lives, |> at the conclusion of one you were instantly reborn into another? |> what if you lived a million, a billion years in this state? |> what if this kept going forever? did this happen to jesus? i don't think so, not from what i heard. he lived one day of suffering and died. if the wages of sin is the above paragraph, then jesus didn't pay for our sins, did he? i'd be surprised to see the moderator let this one through, but i seriously want a reasonable explanation for this. 
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 you might visit some congregations of christians, who happen to be homosexuals, that are spirit-filled believers, gifts of the spirit should not be seen as an endorsement of ones behavior. a lot of people have suffered because of similar beliefs. jesus said that people would come to him saying "lord, lord," and proclaiming the miraculous works they had done in his name. jesus would tell them that they were workers of iniquity that do not know him, and to depart from him. that is not to say that this will happen to everyone who commits a homosexual sin. if the holy spirit were only given to the morally perfect, he would not be given to me, or any of us. god can forgive any sin, if we repent. but people should be careful not to think, "god has given me a gift of the spirit, it must be okay to be gay." that is dangerous (see also hebrews 6 about those who have partaken of the holy spirit and of the powers of the world to come.) the lord is working in our community (the homosexual community, that is). he's not asking us to change our sexual nature, jesus doesn't ask us to change our own nature. we cannot lift ourselves out of our own sin- but we must submit to his hand as he changes our nature. practicing homosexual acts and homosexual lusts violates the morality that god has set forth. if you don't believe that, and think those of us who do are just ignorant, then at least consider us weak in the faith and be celebate for our sake's. is practicing homosexuality worth the cost of a soul, whether it be the homosexual's or the one considered "ignorant?" link hudson. 
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 just a quick question. if mary was immaculately concieved, so she could be a pure vessel, does this mean that she was without sin and, therefore, the perfect (meaning sinless) female human being? is this why she is held so highly in the catholic church despite it's basically patriarchical structure? she was immaculately conceived, and so never subject to original sin, but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life. this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god. she is regarded so highly because of her special relationship to god, and everything that flows from that relationship. the catholic church sees her as the new eve. (the fathers in the early church use this particular figure a lot.) eve is the mother of all the living in a genetic sense. mary is the mother of all the living in the order of grace. as sin came through eve, so grace -- jesus christ -- came through mary. 
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 the only reason for the death penalty is revenge?? if you are going to try to refute a position, try to refute the whole position or acknosledge that you are only speaking to small piece of the problem. broad sweeping "the only reason, " etc on as tough nut to crack as the death penalty reallly doesn't help much. every year the fbi releases crime stats showing an overwhelming amount of crime is committed by repeat offenders. people are killed by folks who have killed (who knows how many times) before. how aobut folks who are for the death penalty, not for revenge, but to cut down on recidivism? 
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 note: i am not the original poster, i am just answering because i think this is important. [evil result of human sinfulness, rather than the will of god] in a certain sense yes. but in the sense that god allows evil to happen, when obviously (he being god) he could have not had it happen, does in a certain sense mean that he wills it to happen. god does not condone evil, but instead uses it for good, as you say, however, what god desires, must be seperated from what actually happens. for example, "god desires that all should be saved" (1 timothy 2.4), however, it is quite obvious that nowhere near all are saved. was god's will thwarted? no, because his will cannot be escaped, for even when it appears that it is your will doing something, it is actually the will of god which by his grace has disposed us to do as he wishes. so we come to the age old question, why does evil occur? to which we must answer that god allows evil to occur, though he does not condone it, so that his ultimate plan may be brought to sucess. personally, i suggest reading the parts of the summa theologica of st. thomas that deal with the knowledge of god to get a good grasp on this whole idea. whoo. i'm going to have to be very careful with my language here. i think god is voluntarily giving up his omniscience in this world so that we can decide on our own where we go -- free will. in this sense god allows evil to occur, and in this sense can be "held responsible" as my chaplain says. however, his will is, of course, that all be saved. he's not going to save us "by himself" -- we have to take a step in his direction before he will save us. read that last sentence carefully -- i'm not saying we save ourselves. i'm saying we have to accept our salvation. i do not believe in predestination -- it would appear from what you say further down that you do. [stuff deleted] i am not saying that anyone deserves punishment more than someone else. i am simply pointing out that god could be using the serbians and croatians as instruments of his punishment, as he did with the israelites against the cannanites. ok -- i have trouble with that, but i guess that's one of those things that can't be resolved by argument. i accept your interpretation. [more deleted] the issue is not questioning why god has made the world in the way god so chooses, it is whether _i_ am discerning the world in the way god intends it. the debate is about whether we should not oppose the serbians in their "ethnic cleansing" because they might be "doing the will of god." and i said christians should not be participants in such wars and slaughters. that does not mitigate the fact that god allows this evil to continue, for he is patient and willing that none should perish, so he waits for those whom he has foreknown to turn to him from their evil. this is what indicates to me that you may believe in predestination. am i correct? i do not believe in predestination -- i believe we all choose whether or not we will accept god's gift of salvation to us. again, fundamental difference which can't really be resolved. [yet more deleted] i am not saying that the evil befalling the bosnians is justified by their guilt. i am saying that it is possible that god is punishing them in this way. in no way is this evil justified, bu that does not mean that god cannot use evil to further his purposes. i am not accusing the bosnians, though they may very well be guilty of great sins, but that is up to god to judge. we are all defendants when the time comes for our judgement by god. let us all sincerely hope and pray that we will have jesus christ as our advocate at that judgement. yes, it is up to god to judge. but he will only mete out that punishment at the last judgement. as for now, evil can be done by human beings that is not god's will -- and the best we can do is see taht some good comes out of it somehow. the thing that most worries me about the "it is the will of god" argument is that this will convince people that we should not stop the rape and killing when i think that it is most christ-like to do just that. if jesus stopped the stoning of an adulterous woman (perhaps this is not a good parallel, but i'm going to go with it anyway), why should we not stop the murder and violation of people who may (or may not) be more andy byler i am your clock! | i bind unto myself today | vera noyes i am your religion! | the strong name of the | noye@midway.uchicago.edu i own you! | trinity.... | no disclaimer -- what - lard | - st. patrick's breastplate | is there to disclaim? 
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 | one thing i don't understand is why being sacred should make the | temple rituals secret. the "so sacred it's secret" explanation is a bit misleading. while there is a profound reverence for the temple endowment, there is no injunction against discussing the ceremony itself in public. but since public discussion is often irreverent, most mormons would rather keep silent than have a cherished practice maligned. but there are certain elements of the ceremony which participants explicitly covenant not to reveal except in conjunction with the ceremony itself. | granted, the gnostic "christians" | had their secret rituals, but these seem to have been taken entirely | from pagan pre-christian mystery religions. there are other interpretations to christian history in this matter. one must recall that most of what we know about the gnostics was written by their enemies. eusebius claims that jesus imparted secret information to peter, james, and john after his resurrection, and that those apostles transmitted that information to the rest of the twelve (eusebius, _historia ecclesiastica_ ii 1:3-4). irenaeus claims this information was passed on to the priests and bishops (_against heresies_ iv 33:8), but eusebius disagrees. he claims the secret ceremonies of the christian church perished with the apostles. interestingly enough, eusebius refers to the groups which we today call gnostics as promulgators of a false gnosis (eusebius, op. cit., iii, 32:7-8). his gripe was not that thay professed *a* gnosis, but that they had the *wrong* one. writings dealing with jesus' post-resurrection teachings emphasize secrecy -- not so much a concealment as a policy of not teaching certain things indiscriminately. in one story, simon magus opens a dialog with peter on the nature of god. peter's response is "you seem to me not to know what a father and a god is: but i could tell you both whence souls are, and when and how they were made; but it is not permitted to me now to disclose these things to you" (_clementine recognitions_ ii, 60). if any one theme underlies the _recognitions_ it is the idea that certain doctrines are not to be idly taught, but can be had after a certain level of spiritual maturity is reached. now one can approach this and other such evidence in many ways. i don't intend that everyone interpret christian history as i do, but i believe that evidence exists (favorably interpreted, of course) of early christian rites analogous to those practiced by mormons today. | neither new testament | christianity nor biblical judaism made a secret of their practices. but if judaism and christianity had such ceremonies, would you expect to read about them in public documents? one can search the book of mormon and other mormon scripture and find almost no information on temple worship. yes, you could establish that mormons worship in temples, but you would probably be hard pressed to characterize that worship. on that basis, can we conclude that the bible explains *all* practices which might have taken place, and that absence of such descriptions proves they did not exist? mormon scholar dr. hugh nibley offers us a list of scriptures from which i have taken a few: 1. "it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" (matt. 13:11). 2. "all men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given" (matt. 19:11). 3. "i have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (john 16:12). 4. "the time cometh, when i shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but i shall shew you plainly of the father" (john 16:25). 5. "... unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (1 cor. 3:1-2). 6. "many things ... i would not write with paper and ink; but i ... come unto you and speak face to face" (2 jn. 1:12). (nibley, _since cumorah_, pp. 92-94) again, these can also be interpreted many different ways. i believe they serve to show that not all doctrines which could have been taught were actually taught openly. | i have heard that joseph smith took the entire | practice (i.e. both the ritual and the secrecy surrounding the ritual) | from the freemasons. anybody in the know have any authoritative | information on whether or not this claim is true? historically, joseph smith had been adiministering the temple endowment ceremony for nearly a year before joining the freemasons. there is diary evidence which supports a claim that the rite did not change after smith became a mason. it can be argued that smith had ample exposure to masonic proceedings through the burlesque of his time and through his brother hyrum (a mason), though no specific connection has yet been established. my conversations with masons (with respect to temple rite transcriptions which have appeared on the net) have led me to believe that the connection from masonry to mormonism is fairly tenuous. as our moderator notes, most of what was similar was removed in the recent revisions to the temple ceremony. i believe that critics who charge that mormon rites were lifted from freemasonry do not have adequate knowledge of the rites in question. jay windley * university of utah * salt lake city jwindley@asylum.cs.utah.edu 
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 [dan's question about mormon temple rituals deleted for brevity] just thought i would interject this, and i believe you dan when you say that you don't mean to offend: for us lds temple goers, the temple ceremonies are very sacred. so much so that anyone who goes there promises never to divulge them. so how much can you trust someone who is telling you about the cerermony? one thing i don't understand is why being sacred should make the temple rituals secret. there are lots of sacred things in christianity, including the sacred scriptures themselves, but there is nothing secret about these things. is it appropriate for the lord not to reveal certain things before the world (i.e., publish them widely)? these things sacred to himself. he may place any pre- or post-conditions he feels are necessary. moreover, there are precedents in scripture where knowledge of sacred things is withheld: 1. after the transfiguration jesus instructed peter, james, and john to "tell the vision to no man, until the son of man be risen again from the dead" (matt. 17:9). if we were living at the time of savior, there would be no (public) record of this event. 2. a faithful friend of paul experiences a vision of "paradise" when he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2 cor. 12:4). this person heard something which paul can not write to the corinthians (and us). 3. there is an incident recorded in the book of mormon where words uttered by "babes" were "forbidden that there should not any man write them (3 nephi 26:16, the entire text follows for those of you without access to the bom). 3 nephi 26:16 behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them. some lds scholars speculate that these words which could not be written are the sacred portions from temple we are to withhold from the world (but it could be something else). can understand why mormons would limit temple access to only faithful mormons, but i have never understood the emphasis on shrouding temple ritual in mystery. there is much we can discuss about the temple ordinances. we can discuss regarding baptisms and other vicarious ordinances for the dead. we can discuss certain concepts regarding the endowment ("the ritual"). however, there are certain elements i can not discuss with anyone (including other saints) outside of the temple. as a portion of the endowment, we receive the tokens and signs that will permit us access to heaven. i must keep this knowledge sacred and respect the conditions under which it is revealed to me. a idler 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21368">
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 arrogance is arrogance. it is not the result of religion, it is the result of people knowing or firmly believing in an idea and one's desire to show others of one's rightness. i assume that god decided to be judge for our sake as much as his own, if we allow him who is kind and merciful be the judge, we'll probably be better off than if others judged us or we judged ourselves. ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ 1 cor 11:31-32 "but if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. when we are judged by the ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ lord, we are being discipled so that we will not be condemned with the world." 1 cor 5:3 "even though i am not physically present, i am with you in spirit. and i have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if i were present." ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ 1 cor 2:15-16 "the spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not ^^^^^^^^^ subject to any man's ^^^ judgement: 'for who has known the mind of the lord that he may instruct him?' but we have the mind of christ." jude :14-15 "enoch, the seventh from adam, prophesied about these men: 'see, the lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to ^^^^ convict all the ungodly of ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.'" arrogance is a sin. although a desire to show others of one's rightness may be a sign of arrogance in some cases, it may be only a sign that they are following the bible in others: jude :22-23 "be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with ^^^^^^ fear -- hating ^^^^ even ^^^^ the clothing stained by corrupted flesh." if i find someone arrogant, i typically don't have anything to do with them. i hope you don't find me arrogant, then. this sounds like a bad practice -- ignoring what certain people say because you perceive them as arrogant. james 1:19 "my dear brothers, take note of this: everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry," 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21370">
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 i have seen the claims, but i don't know if there are any authenticated cases of people making prolonged speeches in real languages they don't know. from my observations, "speaking in tongues" in practice has nothing at all do with this. i have a simple test. i take several people who can speak only one language (e.g. chinese, russian, german, english). then i let the "gifted one" start "speaking in toungues". the audience should understand the "gifted one" clearly in their native language. however, the "gifted one" can only hear himself speaking in his own language. there seem to be many points to the speaking in tongues thing which are problematic. it's use as prayer language seems especially troubling to me. i understand that when you pray in tongues, the spirit is doing the talking. and when you pray, you pray to god. and the spirit is god. so, the spirit is talking to himself. which is why i only go by the pentecost use where it's an actual language. moreover, the phrase "though i speak with the tongues of men and angels" used by paul in i cor. is misleading out of context. some would then assume that there is some angelic tongue, and if when they speak, it is no known language, then it is an angelic tongue. hmmm...in the old testament story about the tower of babel, we see how god punished by giving us different language. can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all, that they have the same one amongst other angels? after all, they were not punished in any manner. so why do these supposed angelic tongues all sound different from one another? it's disturbing to think that some people find ways to justify jabbering. but i'll buy the idea that someone could talk in a language never learned. trouble is, while such stories abound, any and all attempts at verification (and we are to test the spirit...) either show that the witness had no real idea of the circumstances, or that outright fabrication was involved. the brother puka story in a previous post seems like a "friend of a friend" thing. and linguistically, a two syllable word hardly qualifies as language, inflection or no. much as many faith healers have trouble proving their "victories" (since most ailments "cured" are just plain unprovable) and modern day ressurrections have never been validated, so is it true that no modern day xenoglossolalia has been proved by clergy or lay. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21372">
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 i wish to echo what d. andrew kille wrote. i know of no published form in english of the d-type recension of "acts". of course, bezae is quite bizarre in the gospels as well. only d-type texts share bezae's strange readings. [by the way, "d" stands for codex claromontanus elsewhere.] frank d 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21373">
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 hello all, i have a question about satan. i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god's authority. the problem is, i cannot find this in the bible. is it in the bible? if not, where did it satan was one of god's highest ranking angels, like uriel, raphael, michael, and gabriel. in fact, his name was satanel. he did challenge god's authority and got kicked out of heaven. a lot of the mythology of satan (he lost the -el suffix when he fell) comes from the book of enoch and is not found in the bible. read the book of enoch, available thru bookstores, or get the book called "angels: an endangered species" (i think). steven c. salaris we're...a lot more dangerous than 2 live crew salaris@carcs1.wustl.edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas. we have a philosophy. geoff tate -- queensryche 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21374">
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 [why are atheists atheists/ believes it could be the result of "brokenness"] this is condescending at best and a slightly disquised ad hominem attack. this attitude on the part of many theists, especially the vocal ones, is one reason for the hostility you sense. how do you like it when atheists say that people turn to religion out of immature emotionalism? i agree -- if you are going to find out anything from people who don't share your beliefs, do not attack them or condescend to them and hope to get a neutral picture of them. come to them with an open mind. i don't believe that atheists are generally any more "broken" than anybody else. any cause and effect is likely to be the other way. there is an emotional price to pay for being different, hearing one's beliefs (or lack thereof) condemned, and one's motives and character attacked. well, you do believe in something, as i see it, even if it is a sort of "anti-belief" (no negative connotation meant; i mean simply that you believe that god _does not_ exist). christians can also feel that sense of "difference", however, when they are associated with "those weird televangelists who always talk about satan". if you'll excuse the cliched sound of this, everyone has to deal with his/ her differences from other people. i can understand how being an atheist could be hard for you; being a christian is sometimes hard for me. i became an atheist when i got old enough to reason because there was just no good reason to believe the religion i had been taught. this was very painful because of the pressure i was placed under by my family and friends. i wanted to fit in, believe, and be accepted. i tried, but finally the cognitive dissonance was just too great. you should not have to repress how you feel -- you should be able to discuss it without fear. i think there are admirable things to learn from any belief, which can enrich your own -- by asking myself the questions that atheists may ask me, i can learn the answers and become stronger in my faith. if my faith can't support knowing the answers to those questions, it is weak and untrue. i have sympathy for gays growing up in repressive environments and having to hide and sometimes at first try to deny a part of themselves because i've been there. only in my case it was my rationality instead of sexuality which i was forced to try to repress. in some way the pressures were different, of course, because you "chose" your beliefs -- or are you saying that they were not your choice, but born of necessity? [please, no flames about whether or not gay people "choose" their lifestyle -- that's elsewhere in this newsgroup] i must say that i wasn't hurt by my experiences in church any more than some of my friends who didn't become atheists. i was just hurt differently. i'm not sure i understand this sentence -- could you explain? [moderator points out that many/ most atheists aren't "hostile", they just cease believiing in xiantiy/ religion] true. consider also that people like pat robertson and many of the christian extremists in soc.religion.christianity naturally evoke hostility by their attacks on anyone who disagrees and their attempts to force their views on others. you are known by the company you keep. christians trying to preach in alt.atheism should not be surprised by ouch, yes. part of being a christian is accepting _everyone_ with an open heart -- including people of "our own camp" with whom we completely disagree. by the same token, i believe that accusation and suspicion are not the best way to reach out to those not of our faith, nor is it effective to try to browbeat people into accepting our religion. i have a different idea of mission: be what i am, a christian who is happy in her faith, and if others see that and want to know about either the happiness or the religion, i'll share what i know without pressure and let them make their own decisions. at some point you just have to agree to disagree -- acceptance of diversity, not uniformity, is the way to sow peace.... bill mayne vera noyes i am your clock! | i bind unto myself today | vera noyes i am your religion! | the strong name of the | noye@midway.uchicago.edu i own you! | trinity.... | no disclaimer -- what - lard | - st. patrick's breastplate | is there to disclaim? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21375">
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 hello all, i have a question about satan. i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god's authority. the problem is, i cannot find this in the bible. is it in the bible? if not, where did it i did a workshop on this for an episcopalian student gathering a couple months ago because i wanted to know the answer too. as far as i could tell, although that story was never specifically _told_ in the bible, many references are made to it, primarily in the new testament. in the old testament there is actually an entirely different view of satan as a (excuse the pun) "devil's advocate" for yahweh. see the book of job. getting back to the fallen angel story, there are _no_ references to "lucifer" in the bible except for a mistranslation of "the morning star" in the king james version (isaiah 14:12), which probably referred to a babylonian monarch much in the same was as "the sun king" referred to louis xiv. all in all, i don't know where the story _came from_; it may have been rolling around for a long time, or milton (_paradise lost_) may have invented it. sorry for the sketchiness of the rest of this, but i am in a hurry and need to eat lunch! feel free to email me about the other stuff i found out.... (although a lot of it is just the result of a bible concordance program called "quickverse" -- it's really lousy, by the way -- don't buy it.) ______ __ ___ ___ o __ ___ | western kentucky | / /__) /__ /__ / ) / /__) /__ | university | / / \ (___ (___ (__/__/ / / \ (___ | easteee@wkuvx1.bitnet | hope this helped! je cherche une ame, qui of course i don't agree with pourra m'aider mylene farmer's religious views; je suis i just think they're interesting. d'une generation desenchantee (vera noyes) - mylene farmer noye@midway.uchicago.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21381">
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 any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should out: romans 1:27 i corinthians 6:9 i timothy 1:10 jude 1:7 ii peter 2:6-9 gen. 19 lev 18:22 (to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality) in christ's love, bryan whitsell i was waiting for this. i think your question should be rephrased. the many verses of the bible which condem homosexuality (by our beliefs) have been shoved down the throats of homosexuals for a long time by (well-meaning?) christians. the question is how do they interpret these verses. any discussion of any issue (this or any other issue) requires a proof of your case as well as a disproof of the opposing view. we are already familiar with those verses and many have proven to themselves that these condem homosexual behaviour. we must now establish reasons for not believing this to be true based on the interpretation of these scriptures given by someone who has come to grips with todd... 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21384">
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 a few points about mary's being taken into heaven at the end of her life on earth: one piece of evidence for mary's assumption into heaven is the fact that no christian church ever claimed to be the sight where she was buried. some christian churches claimed to be located at the final resting places of peter, mark, and other saints, but no one ever claimed to possess the body of mary, the greatest of the saints. why? because everyone knew that she had been taken up into heaven. although there is no definitive scriptural proof for the assumption of mary, some passages seem suggestive, like the passage in revelation that describes a woman giving birth to a son and later being crowned in the heavens. of course, the woman in this passage has other interpretations; she can also be taken a symbol for the church. the assumption of mary makes sense because of her relationship to christ. jesus, perfect god and perfect man, fulfilled the requirements of the law perfectly. under the law god gave to us, we are to honor our mother and father, and christ's act of taking his mother into heaven is part of his fulfillment of that law. also, he took his flesh from her, so it seems appropriate that he decide not to allow her flesh to rot in the grave. one last point: an ex-catholic attempted to explain catholic doctrine on the assumption by asserting it is connected to a belief that mary did not die. this is not a correct summary of what catholics believe. the dogma of the assumption was carefully phrased to avoid saying whether mary did or did not die. in fact, the consensus among catholic theologians seems to be that mary in fact did die. this would make sense: christ died, and his mother, who waited at the foot of the cross, would want to share in his death. brian finnerty 
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 heres the life of st. maria goretti, posted with kind permission of the editor of the australian catholic magazine "morning star". hope you like it. put up with anything to prevent sin st. maria goretti maria was born on october 16th 1890 to luigi and assunta goretti, the eldest daughter in the family of seven. she was a cheerful girl, always imitating her parents. she had but one disire, but one wish: to receive our lord in the blessed sacrament. the date was finally set for little maria to receive our lord on the feast of corpus christi. for maria, time seemed like an eter- nity as she slowly neared the great day. when it finally arrived, fr. jerome( the priest who was to celebrate the mass and give the children their first holy communion) delivered a sermon on the immense love of jesus christ for them and the great love we should have in return for him. he then warmly urged them to die rather than commit a mortal sin. maria humbly approached the altar of god and received the holy eucharist. her only sadness was the thought of her father's absence, who died some time beforehand. as for the rest of the day, maria remained under the spell of the divine visit; that is -4- her thoughts changed to when she could go next to holy communion. thus ended the happiest day of maria's life. over the next twelve months, maria had changed from a giggling little girl into a quiet young lady with responsibilities. as her mother went out into the fields in place of her husband, maria took on the ironing, cooking, washing and other motherly duties. she was doing this not only for her own family, but also for the serenellis, a father and son who lived with the goretti's, owning a share in the farm. although maria was poorer than all the other children, she by far surpassed them in virtue. in all thi ngs she did the holy will of god. during the month of june, alessandro serenelli(the son) twice made advances upon maria when he chanced to be alone with her. on both occasions maria managed to struggle free of alessandro's strong grip, but on the second, he threatened to kill her if she even uttered a word to her mother. from this day on, maria lived in terror, fearing lest alessandro attack again. on july 5th 1902, alessandro left work in the fields to "get a handkerchief," as he claimed. he went to the storeroom beneath the house where maria, who was outside on the landing with the baby, could hear him fumbling about in with tools. she wondered what he was doing. it was later learned that he was sharpening a 91/2" blade. he went to the house and called for maria. she told him she wouldn't go to him unless she knew why she was needed. he stormed out to the landing and dragged her up to her room. mar ia instantly realized what he was up to. "no, no, no! do not touch me! it is a sin, you will go to hell!" at this point alessandro held the knife over maria's chest, who was now on the floor. "will you or will you not?" maria gathered all her energy. "no i will not, alessandro, no!" she had chosen her martyrdom over sin, god over satan. overcome with rage, alessandro plunged the knife into maria's breast fourteen times. finally he came to his senses and thought maria was dead. frantically he threw the knife behind a closet and locked himself in his room. the crying of the baby teresa on the landing brought the attention to assunta and the father of alessandro. as the baby was unattended and was in danger of falling off, they ran to the house to find maria, who, covered in blood, was dragging herself to the door. when asked what happened she said alessandro stabbed her. "he wanted to make me do wrong and i would not." the ambulance arrived, then the police who took alessandro away. as the ambulance carried maria to the hospital, a large crowd followed on foot. the doctors at the hospital held no hope for poor little maria. the same fr. jerome who gave maria her first -5- came to administer the last rites and to give her holy viaticum. he asked maria if she would forgive her murderer. "yes. for the love of jesus i forgive him. i wish for him to one day join me in paradise. may god forgive him, for i alread y have." maria died at about three o'clock. alessandro was tried and found guilty of maria's death but because of his age he was sentenced to only thirty years in prison. after eight years of being a violent prisoner and show- ing no regret for his crime, he saw in a dream, in the midst of a field of flowers, maria holding out a bunch of white lilies to him. soon later he wrote to the local bishop, begging god's par- don for the grave sin he had committed. he later gave testimony in maria's beatification in 1947. less than three years later, on ju ne 24th 1950, maria was canonised. assunta goretti was the first mother ever to be present at her daughter's canonisation. may st. maria goretti help us to be pure and grant us the strength to die rather than commit a mortal sin. saint maria goretti, pray for us. by brendan arthur internet: simon@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.au viva cristo rey !! long live christ the king. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21390">
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 hello all, i have a question about satan. i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god's authority. the problem is, i cannot find this in the bible. is it in the bible? if not, where did it the quick answer: revelation 12:7-9 "and there was war in heaven. michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels who fought back. but he [the dragon] was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. the great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who leads the whole world astray. he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels with him." the earlier part of chapter 12 deals (very symbolically) with why satan rose up in battle against michael and the good angels in the first place. hope this clears it up. - mike walker 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21392">
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 any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out: romans 1:27 i corinthians 6:9 i timothy 1:10 jude 1:7 ii peter 2:6-9 gen. 19 lev 18:22 (to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality) homosexual christians have indeed "checked out" these verses. some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations. others simply do not address the issues. you would seem to be more in need of a careful and spirit-led course in exegesis than most of the gay christians i know. i suggest that you stop "proof-texting" about things you know nothing about. michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21395">
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 can someone cite biblical references to homosexuality being immoral, other than leviticus? so far, when i ask, around here, i get the verses from leviticus spouted at me, but the whole rest of that book tends to be ignored by christians (haven't seen any stonings in a _long_ time :-). max (bob) muir [the list was posted not long ago, as i recall, aside from lev, commonly cited passages are: the story of sodom. note however that this was a homosexual rape, and there's no disagreement that that is wrong. i take an intermediate position on this: note that sodom is referred to elsewhere in the bible for its sinfulness. it doesn't seem to have been known specifically for homosexuality. rather, i think it was considered a cesspool of all sins. however from what we know of jewish attitudes, homosexuality would have contributed to the horror of the action described. (it almost seems to have been contrived to combine about as many forms of evil in one act as possible: homosexual rape of guests, who were actually angels.) but this story is not specifically about homosexuality. in the nt, the clear references are all from paul's letters. in rom 1, there is a passage that presupposes that homosexuality is an evil. note that the passage isn't about homosexuality -- it's about idolatry. homosexuality is visited on people as a punishment, or at least result, of idolatry. there are a number of arguments over this passage. it does not use the word "homosexuality", and it is referring to people who are by nature heterosexual practicing homosexuality. so it's not what i'd call an explicit teaching against all homosexuality. but it does seem to support what would be a natural assumption anyway, that paul shares the general negative jewish attitude towards the other passages occur in lists of sins, in i cor 6:9, and i tim 1:10. unfortunately it's not entirely clear what the words used here mean. there have been suggestions that one has a broader meaning, such as "wanton", and that another may be specifically "male prostitute". again, we don't have here a precise teaching about homosexuality, but it is at least weak supportive evidence that paul shared the ot's negative judgement on homosexuality. jude 1:7 is sometimes cited, however it's probably not relevant. the context in jude involves angels. since those who were almost raped in sodom were angels, it seems likely that "strange flesh" refers to intercourse with angels. as you can see, the nt evidence is such that people's conclusion is determined by their approach to the bible. conservatives note that the passages from paul's letters imply that he accepted the ot prohibition. this is enough for them to regard it as having nt endorsement. liberals note that there's no specific teaching, and no clear definition of what is being prohibited or why (is the concern in rom 1 the connection of homosexuality to pagan worship? what exactly do the words in the lists of sins mean?). thus some believe it is legitimate to regard this as a attitude paul took with him from his background and not a specific teaching of the gospel. this is an explosive topic, which tends to result in long dissertations on the exact meaning of various greek words. but it's clear to me that that's mostly irrelevant. what it really comes down to is whether people are looking to the bible for law or whether they believe that such as approach is inconsistent with the gospel. this appears to depend upon one's reaction to the message of the bible as a whole, as well as one's perception of the needs of the church today. this is a difference of approach at least as serious as the difference between protestant and catholic in the 16th cent, and one where both sides believe that the bible is so obviously on their side that they keep thinking all they have to do is quote a few more passages and the other side will finally come to their senses. that makes things very frustrating for a moderator, who realizes that such an optimistic outcome is not very likely... --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21396">
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 a listmember (d andrew killie, i think) wrote, in response to the suggestion that genocide may sometimes be the will of god: any god who works that way is indescribably evil, and unworthy of my worship or faith. nobuya "higgy" higashiyama replied (as, in substance, did others): where is your source of moral standards by which you judge god's it is often argued that we have no standing by which to judge god's actions. who is the clay to talk back to the potter? but we find a contrary view in scripture. when god proposes to destroy the city of sodom (genesis 18), abraham says: + suppose that there are some good men in the city. + will you destroy the righteous along with the wicked? + far be it from you, lord, to do such a thing! + shall not the judge of all the earth do right? i am told that the hebrew is actually a bit stronger than this, and can perhaps be better rendered (dynamic equivalence) as + shame on you, lord, if you do such a thing! there are those who say that the definition of "good" is "whatever god happens to want." but if that is so, then the statement that god is good has no meaning. it simply says that god does what he wants. that being the case, no one can either love or obey god because he is good. the only motive left for obeying him is that he is powerful. just as it makes sense to obey a dictator, even when he tells you to round up all jews and exterminate them, because if you defy him you might end up in the gas chamber yourself, so it makes sense to obey god, because he has the power to punish you if you don't. this ethical theory i take to be in radical contradiction to genesis 18 and to christianity in general. any theory that makes our moral judgements worthless makes any further discussion of morality (or of the goodness of god) meaningless. however, it does not follow that our moral judgements are always infallible in particular cases, still less our judgements in particular cases about the course of action most likely to achieve a good result. when i read the scriptural accounts of the actions of god in history, those actions often seem to me very different from what i might expect of a god who loves us and desires what is best for us. moreover, leaving the scriptures aside, and considering the natural world, i find that nature is often very different from what i might expect if it were the work of a benevolent deity. (origen said: "those who believe that the author of nature is also the author of the scriptures must expect to find in the scriptures the same sort of difficulties that they find in nature.") now, that some such difficulties should exist is not in itself an argument against the existence, power, wisdom, and goodness of god. on the contrary, their absence would be such an argument. suppose that i am watching bobby fisher play chess, and suppose that every time he makes a move, i find myself nodding and saying: "good move! just what i was expecting him to do. same move i would have made if i were playing." that would be a sign that fisher is no better a chess player than myself. given that he is better, i expect that at least some of his moves will have me thinking, "now, what do suppose induced him to do that?" or even, "boy, that was a real slip -- he's just thrown the game away!" similarly, if god understands the workings of the universe better than i do, it is to be expected that sometimes it will look to me as if he has made a mistake. one difference between fisher at the chessboard and god at the controls of the universe is that i can see the end of the chess game. if fisher wins, i revise my earlier inference that it was carelessness that made him lose his queen 23 moves earlier. however, if he loses, and particularly if i can see that there was a time when he had an opportunity for a checkmate in two moves and did not take it, then i know that he is not as good a player as i had with god, on the other hand, i shall not in this life see the total result of some of his actions. therefore, my grounds for judging that i have seen a bad move on his part must always be far shakier than my grounds for making a similar judgement about fisher. in the book of genesis, we read that joseph's ten older brothers, who (with good reason) found him insufferable, conspired to sell him into slavery in egypt. there he eventually became viceroy, and when there was a famine in canaan, he was able to provide for his family. when his brothers nervously apologized, he told them: "do not worry. you meant to do me evil, but god turned it into good." i once heard a rabbi speak on this text. he said: the history of the jews is largely a history of events that look like catastrophes that threaten the continued survival of the religion, or the people, or both. but, amazingly, those events turn out to be the saving of the jews and of judaism. the sale of joseph by his brothers looked like the breakup of the family. but in fact, it ended with a reconciliation of the quarrel between them. the famine that drove the family out of canaan looked like a misfortune for them. but in fact, if they had stayed in canaan, they would almost certainly have intermarried with the canaanites and been assimilated into their culture. their oppression by the egyptians a few generations after their arrival in egypt again looked like a disaster. but god used it to bring them out of egypt, and into the promised land. here the people built a temple, and regularly offered sacrifices. but the babylonians captured jerusalem and judea, destroyed temple and city and countryside, and deported most of the people to babylon. you might have thought that that would be the end of the people and the religion. but it was not. living in canaan, the people had been under constant danger of assimilation. again and again, they had turned from the worship of the lord to the worship of the canaanite fertility cults, with their ritual prostitution and ritual human sacrifice. the babylonian captivity put a stop to that. never again did the jews show any interest in polytheism or idolatry. neither the worship of the canaanites mor that of the babylonians ever again had a foothold among them. nor is that all. judaism had been in danger of becoming simply a system of sacrifices and temple observances. the only prescribed acts of worship consisted of coming to jerusalem every so often and offering a sacrifice. during the captivity, with the temple gone, the jews invented the synagogue, a place of meeting for reading and study and discussion of the scriptures. they came to realize clearly, what they were in danger of forgetting while they continued to live in judea, that god is not simply a local or tribal deity, not just the controller of the land of canaan, or the patron of the jewish people, but the creator of the world, and the ruler and judge of all humans everywhere. time passed, and the babylonian empire was replaced by that of the persians, and then that of the greeks, or rather the macedonians. the ruler, antiochus epiphanes, was determined to stamp out judaism, and to this end he made the reading and the study of the torah punishable by death. again, one might think that this would be the end of judaism. but it was not. the people met for worship, and instead of reading the torah portion appointed for the day, they would read some passage from the prophets that had a similar theme, and then discuss that. before this time, the torah, the so-called five books of moses (genesis, exodus, leviticus, numbers, and deuteronomy) were the only books read and studied in the synagogue. if it had not been for antiochus, the books of the prophets would probably have been forgotten altogether. his hatred for judaism saved them. [other examples here omitted for brevity's sake.] some of you may remember that julie andrews first became famous as eliza doolittle in the stage production of my fair lady. when warner brothers undertook to make a movie of it, everyone expected that julie, who had been so magnificent on stage, would play the same role in the movie. instead, the studio decided to go with an established screen star, and cast audrey hepburn. julie andrews was naturally crushed. but she later realized that if she had played the screen role, she would have been type-cast for life as an elize doolittle type. it would have been a disaster for her. as it was, walt disney offered her the role of mary poppins, and she won an oscar for it. at the presentation, she stood there, smiling, and looking at walt disney, she said, "and now, my special thanks to the man who made all this possible -- jack warner!" it was the most memorable line of the evening. in a similar spirit, we jews might thank the men who in the providence of god have preserved judaism, and kept it alive to this day, beginning with joseph's brothers, and continuing with two pharaohs, with nebuchadnezzar, with antiochus epiphanes.... after the formal meeting had broken up, one woman came up to him privately and said, "you were talking about the holocaust, weren't you?" he answered, "if that is an example that came to your mind, then you are right, i was talking about it to you. but i would not talk about it to everyone, for not everyone can bear it." i assume that he meant that, without the holocaust, there would have been no state of israel. someone hearing the rabbi's lecture might leap to the conclusion that god is dependent on the wickedness of men to accomplish his purposes -- or at least that the rabbi thought so. he might then go on to suppose that the wickedness is in fact god's doing -- that he stirred up joseph's brothers to a murderous hate against him, and that when the israelites were in egypt, god hardened pharaoh's heart, so that he oppressed the people, and would not let them go. and this raises questions about how an action can be considered wicked and at the same time be considered something that god has brought about. i suggest another way of looking at it. consider a sculptor who has a log of wood from which he proposes to carve a statue. but the log, instead of having a smooth even grain throughout, has a large knot that spoils the appearance of the surface. the sculptor considers the wood for a while, and then carves a statue that features the knot, that makes that particular interruption in the grain and color of the wood correspond to some feature of the statue, so that observers will say: "how fortunate the sculptor was in finding a piece of wood with a knot like that in just the right place. its presence is the crowning touch, the thing that makes the statue a great work of art." in reality, the knot, far from being what the sculptor was looking for, was a challenge to his skill. if the wood had not contained that flaw, he would still have made a great work of art, but a different one. so, if joseph's brothers had not sold him, god would still have brought about his purposes for the jewish people, but he would have done so in another manner. if judas had not betrayed jesus, if caiaphas and his fellow leaders had not rejected jesus, but had rather acknowledged him as the annointed of god, if pilate had followed his conscience rather than his fears and had set jesus free, it might appear that there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no redemption, and therefore no salvation. not so. god did not need judas' sin to redeem us. if judas had done right, then god in christ would still have reconciled the world to himself. we do not know how, just as we do not know how michelangelo would have painted the sistine chapel if its interior had instead been shaped like grand central station, and just as we do not know how bobby fisher would have won his fourth game agianst spassky if spassky had refused the exchange of bishops and had attacked fisher's knight instead (don't bother to look up the game in question--i am making up this example, but the point is none the less valid). thus, we may say both (1) that god used, say, the cowardice of pilate to accomplish his purposes, and (2) that the said cowardice was not god's doing, and that pilate would not have thwarted god's plans by behaving justly and courageously. what, then, are we to make of the place where god says to moses, "i will harden pharaoh's heart, so that he will not let the people go"? some christians have taken this to mean that pharaoh was a puppet with god pulling the strings, and that his stubbornness and cruelty were not his own work, but the work of god in him. i suppose rather that what god was telling moses was something like this: "if you see that pharaoh is not willing to let the people go, do not be discouraged, or suppose that the situation is out of my control. my purposes will not be thwarted. if pharaoh chooses to hear you and let the people go, well and good. if he does not, i will fit his resistance into my plans, and fit it so perfectly that future historians and theologians will suppose that i would have been thrown for a loss if pharaoh had obeyed me." to return to the question that started this all off. is it possible that the serbs, in slaughtering the moslems of bosnia, are instruments of god's will? first point. what they are doing is wrong, just as what joseph's brothers did was wrong, just as what judas did was wrong. they intend it for evil. if god somehow brings good out of it, that does not make them any less subject to just condemnation and second point. of course, god will bring good out of it. but not the same good that he would have brought if the serbians had refrained from the sins of robbery and rape and murder. nor does the good he purposes excuse us from the duty of doing what is right. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21398">
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 the apostle paul (romans 9:11) points out that god chose jacob rather than esau... if we admit the possibility that they had lived previous lives, and that (in accordance with the asiatic idea of "karma") and following romans to 9:13, "as it is written, jacob have i loved, but esau have i hated." how could god have loved and hated (in the past tense) those that are not yet born, neither having done good or evil? woah...the context is about god's calling out a special people (the jews) to carry the "promise." to read the meaning as literal people is to miss paul's entire point. i'd be glad to send anyone more detailed explanations of this passage if interested. ted kalivoda (tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu) university of georgia, athens institute of higher ed. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21400">
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 the deutero-canonical books were added much later in the church's history. they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture. i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing. and that is where this sort of discussion ultimately ends. david h. wagner a confessional lutheran "now thank we all our god whoah whoah whoah whoah!!! what?!? that last paragraph just about killed me. the deuterocanonicals have always been accepted as inspired scripture by the catholic church, which has existed much longer than any protestant church out there. it was martin luther who began hacking up the bible and deciding to remove certain books--not the fact that the catholic church decided to add some much later--that is the reason for the difference between "catholic" and "protestant" bibles. sorry for the tone--but that comment really irked me. - mike walker mdw33310@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (univ. of illinois) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21401">
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 i posted this a couple of weeks ago, and it doesn't seem to have appeared on the newsgroup, and i haven't had a reply from the moderator. we were having intermittent problems with our mail at the time. please excuse me if you have seen this before... should christians fight? last week alastair posted some questions about fighting, and whether there are such things as "justifiable wars". i have started looking into these things and have jotted down my findings as i go. i haven't answered all his questions yet, and i know what i have here is on a slightly different tack, but possibly i'll be able to get into it more deeply later, and post some more info soon. may i suggest the book: "ethics" by dr. norm geisler, of dallas theological seminary. in it, he goes over all the arguments pro and con and in-between, and comes up with a very reasonable answer. if i have time, and there is enough interest, i may post his position. jon noring charter member --->>> infj club. if you're dying to know what infj means, be brave, e-mail me, i'll send info. | jon noring | noring@netcom.com | | | jkn international | ip : 192.100.81.100 | fred's gourmet chocolate | | 1312 carlton place | phone : (510) 294-8153 | chips - world's best! | | livermore, ca 94550 | v-mail: (510) 417-4101 | | who are you? read alt.psychology.personality! that's where the action is. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21404">
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 that was only the fall of the *western* empire. the *eastern* empire continued for another 1000 years--and a key element in it's fall was the *christian* sack of constantinople. note that i said the fall of rome, not of the empire. the roman empire lasted until 1453, with its transfered capital in constantinople. the main reason for it's fall was not so much the sack of constantinople by the men of the 4th crusade (who were not christians - they had been excommunicated down to the last man after attacking the christian city of zara in croatia), but rather the disastorous defeat in the battle of mazinkert. after the turks breached the frontier, it was only a matter of time before the empire fell, the inability of the empire to hold onto the rim of anatolia, with the ottomans and rum seljuks in the middle should be quite obvious to any student of history. the sack of constantinople only hastened the inevitable along. for if the greeks had wanted to save their empire, why would they not cooperate with the crusaders when they came to do battle with the saracens in the 1st-3rd crusades? because of their obstinacy over cooperating with people they considered heretics, even though those "heretics" were fighting for the cause of the empire and christendom in doing battle with the turkish hordes in anatolia, edessa, lebanon, palastine, and syria, the some hordes who were to later sack constantinople, and overrun a third of europe (the balkans, hungary, the ukraine, the caucasus, etc.) andy byler 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21406">
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 but, haven't "all sinned, and come short of the glory of god" (romans 3:23)? those that cite this scripture to claim that even babes require baptism neglect that "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (romans 5:13). therefore, until someone is capable of comprehending god's laws they are not accountable for living them. they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god. a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn't the bible ever say so. it never comes right and says "only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised." what christ did say was : "i solemly assure you, no one can enter god's kingdom without being born of water and spirit ... do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above." could this be because everyone is born with original sin? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21410">
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 the last state church was in massachusetts. sam adams, the patriot-brewmaster, during his tenure as governor after the revolutionary war got it passed. i believe it was eliminated around 1820. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21411">
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 bruce@liv.ac.uk (bruce stephens) suggests different levels of acceptance of homosexuality: 1) regard homosexual orientation as a sin (or evil, whatever) 2) regard homosexual behaviour as a sin, but accept orientation (though presumably orientation is unfortunate) and dislike people who 3) as 2, but "love the sinner" 4) accept homosexuality altogether. i would add 4': our churches should accept homosexual orientation but hold all people to certain standards of sexual behavior. promiscuity, abuse of power relationships, harrassment, compulsivity are equally out of place in the lives of homosexual as of heterosexual people. of course, this would bring up the dread shibboleth of homosexual marriage, and we couldn't have that! :-) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21414">
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 one last point: an ex-catholic attempted to explain catholic doctrine on the assumption by asserting it is connected to a belief that mary did not die. this is not a correct summary of what catholics believe. the dogma of the assumption was carefully phrased to avoid saying whether mary did or did not die. in fact, the consensus among catholic theologians seems to be that mary in fact did die. this would make sense: christ died, and his mother, who waited at the foot of the cross, would want to share in his death. the above article is a good short summary of traditional christian teaching concerning the death of mary. also very good is "re: question about the virgin mary" by micheal d. walker. he tells the story very well. i would like to add that in the eastern orthodox church we celebrate "the dormition (or falling asleep) of the theotokos (the mother of god)". the icon for this day shows mary lying on a bed surrounded by the apostles who are weeping. christ, in his resurrected glory, is there holding what seems to be a small child. this is, in fact, mary's soul already with christ in heaven. the assumption of mary is one more confirmation for us as christians that christ did indeed conquer death. it forshadows the general resurrection on the last day. the disciples were not surprised to find mary's body missing from the grave. she was the mother of the savior. she was the first of all christians. she gave birth to the word of god. if it were not for her we would not be saved. this is why we pray in the orthodox church, "through the prayers of the theotokos, savior save us." timothy richardson rich0043@student.tc.umn.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21416">
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 basically the teaching on infallibility holds that the pope is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine, the college of bishops is likewise infallible, and the laity is as well. not exactly correct, but nice try. the catholic doctrine of infallibility refers to freedom from error in teaching of the universal church in matters of faith or morals. it is this teaching which is taken as randal lee nicholas mandock gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu 
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<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21420" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 regarding the consequences of the original sin: catholics believe that what adam primarily lost by his sin, for himself and the human race, was sanctifying grace. this is basically a share in the divine life. take a rock and make it able to talk: what god does to a human being through sanctifying grace is similar. it makes such a one able to live on a plane that is above the powers of any possible creature. this is the "everlasting life" that the new testament speaks of. what christ did when he came was to restore this life of sanctifying grace to the human race. he instituted the sacraments as the means by which this life is given to people, and its increase fostered. the absence of sanctifying grace at death means automatic exclusion from heaven. the nature of heaven is such that it's impossible for a human being to have any part in it without the gift of sanctifying grace. to use my example, it would be like taking that rock and attempting to hold a conversation with it: rocks cannot talk. neither can human beings live in heaven without sanctifying grace. this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults, since both have souls. infants must be baptized, therefore, or they cannot enter into heaven. they too need this form of life in them, or they cannot enter into heaven. turning it around, infant baptism is good supporting evidence for the catholic belief in sanctifying grace. unless baptism causes some change in an infant's soul, there is no particular reason to insist on the practice. yet infant baptism was probably practiced by the apostles themselves, and was *certainly* part of the church shortly there is evidence for infant baptism in the new testament itself: 1 cor 1:16, acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, also acts 11:14. it is known for sure that at least one disciple of the apostle john was baptized as an infant: st. polycarp (because of a remark he makes in the acts of his martyrdom). st. justin martyr mentions men and women baptized as infants. there is direct evidence in st. irenaeus's "against heresies", and in tertullian's "on baptism". all these so far mentioned are in the first 170 years after our lord's death. after that, there starts to be tons of evidence for the practice. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21421">
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 the following is a juxtaposition of part of an ancient text known as "de sacramentis", usually attributed to st. ambrose of milan, and the canon of the traditional catholic mass of the roman rite. the conclusion from this comparison is that the central part of the traditional roman canon was already fairly well in place by sometime in the late 4th century. taken from "the mass of the western rites", by the right reverend dom fernand cabrol, abbot of farnborough, 1934, without permission. excerpted from chapter vi: the mass at rome, from the fifth to the seventh centuries. the paragraph at the end is from the book, not me. sorry about the long lines. joe buehler text of de sacramentis roman canon roman canon (about 400 ad) (1962 ad) (english translation) te igitur ... (omitted here) memento domine ... communicantes ... hanc igitur oblationem ... fac nobis (inquit sacerdos), quam oblationem tu deus, in do thou, o god, deign to hanc oblationem ascriptam, omnibus, quaesumus, bless what we offer, and ratam, rationabilem, benedictam, adscriptam, make it approved, acceptabilem, quod figura ratam, rationabilem, effective, right, and est corporis et sanguinis acceptabilemque facere wholly pleasing in every jesu christi. digneris: ut nobis corpus et way, that it may become sanguis fiat dilectissimi for our good, the body filii tui domini nostri jesu and blood of thy dearly christi. beloved son, jesus christ our lord. qui pridie quam pateretur, qui pridie quam pateretur, who, the day before he in sanctis manibus suis accepit panem in sanctas ac suffered, took bread into accepit panem, respexit in venerabiles manus suas: et his holy and venerable caelum ad te, sancte pater elevatis oculis in ccelum, hands, and having raised omnipotens, aeterne deus, ad te deum patrem suum his eyes to heaven, unto gratias agens, benedixit, omnipotentem, tibi gratias thee, o god, his almighty fregit, fractum quae agens, benedixit, fregit, father, giving thanks to apostolis suis et discipulis deditque discipulis suis thee, he blessed it, broke suis tradidit dicens: dicens: accipite et it, and gave it to his accipite et edite ex hoc manducate ex hoc omnes: hoc disciples, saying: take ye omnes: hoc est enim corpus est enim corpus meum. all and eat of this: meum, quod pro multis for this is my body. similiter etiam calicem simili modo postquam in like manner, when the postquam caenatum est, caenatum est, accipiens et supper was done, taking pridie quam pateretur, hunc praeclarum calicem in also this goodly chalice accepit, respexit in sanctas ac venerabiles manus into his holy and caelum ad te, sancte pater suas item tibi gratias venerable hands, again omnipotens, aeterne deus, agens, benedixit deditque giving thanks to thee, gratias agens, benedixit, discipulis suis, dicens: he blessed it, and gave it apostolis suis et discipulis accipite et bibite ex eo to his disciples, saying: suis tradidit, dicens: omnes: hic est enim calix take ye all, and drink of accipite et bibite ex hoc sanguinis mei, novi et this: for this is the omnes: hic est enim sanguis aeterni testamenti: chalice of my blood of the meus. mysterium fidei; qui pro new and eternal covenant; vobis et pro multis the mystery of faith, effundetur in remissionem which shall be shed for peccatorum. you and for many unto the forgiveness of sins. haec quotiescumque feceritis as often as you shall do in mei memoriam facietis. these things, in memory of me shall you do them. ergo memores gloriosissimae unde et memores, domine, nos mindful, therefore, o ejus passionis et ab inferis servi tui, sed et plebs tua lord, not only of the resurrectionis, in caelum sancta, ejusdem christi blessed passion of the ascensionis, offerimus tibi filii tui domini nostri, tam same christ, thy son, our hanc immaculatam hostiam, beatae passionis necnon et lord, but also of his hunc panem sanctum et ab inferis resurrectionis, resurrection from the calicem vitae aeternae; sed et in caelos gloriosae dead, and finally his ascensionis: offerimus glorious ascension into praeclarae majestati tuae de heaven, we, thy ministers, tuis donis ac datis, hostiam as also thy holy people, puram, hostiam sanctam, offer unto thy supreme hostiam immaculatam, panem majesty, of the gifts sanctum vitae aeternae, et bestowed upon us, the calicem salutis perpetuae. pure victim, the holy victim, the all-perfect victim: the holy bread of life eternal and the chalice of unending et petimus et precamur, ut supra quae propitio ac and this do thou deign to hanc oblationem suscipias in sereno vultu respicere regard with gracious and sublimi altari tuo per manus digneris: et accepta habere, kindly attention and hold angelorum tuorum sicut sicuti accepta, habere acceptable, as thou didst suscipere dignatus es munera dignatus es munera pueri tui deign to accept the pueri tui justi abel et justi abel, et sacrificium offerings of abel, thy sacrificium patriarchae patriarchae nostri abrahae, just servant, and the nostri abrahae et quod tibi et quod tibi obtulit summus sacrifice of abraham our obtulit summus sacerdos sacerdos tuus melchisedech patriarch, and that which melchisedech. sanctum sacrificium, thy chief priest immaculatam hostiam. melchisedech offered unto thee, a holy sacrifice and a spotless victim. supplices te rogamus, most humbly we implore omnipotens deus: jube haec thee, almighty god, bid perferri per manus sancti these offerings to be angeli tui in sublime altare brought by the hands of tuum in conspectu divinae thy holy angel unto thy majestatis tuae: etc. altar above; before the face of thy divine majesty; etc. there is no doubt that we have here two editions of the same text; and as that of de sacramentis is localised in upper italy and dated about the year 400, it is the most ancient witness we possess as to the principal parts of the roman canon, which only appear in the sacramentaries some time after the seventh century. the question as to whether the roman canon is not older even than that of de sacramentis is discussed by liturgiologists. mgr. batiffol is of this opinion, but we, on the contrary, think that the former bears traces of closer composition, of a more carefully guarded orthodoxy, and that consequently it is a text corrected from de sacramentis. we shall see, in studying the list of names in the memento of the living and that of the dead, that mgr. batiffol argues with good reason that he can date these fragments from the pontificate of symmachus (498-514). we thus have the state of the roman mass, or at least of the chief parts of the canon, at the beginning of the fourth century. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21422">
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 i am interested in finding out why people become atheists after having believed in some god/god. in conversing with them on other groups, i've often sensed anger or hostility. though i don't mean to imply that all atheists are angry or hostile, it does seem to be one motivation for giving up faith. thus, some atheism might result from broken-ness. i'd like to field this one, if i may. although i am a believer in and follower of christ, my experiences with religion haven't been all that positive. in fact, there was one point in my life when, for about three days, i simply _couldn't_ believe in the existence of god. anyway, when i look back upon the troubles i've had, they seem to fall into two categories -- impulses to unbelief that resulted from logical contradictions, and impulses to unbelief that resulted from frustration with god. the first category doesn't occur to me much anymore, as i have worked through most of the arguments for the non-existence of god. but way back when, these would cause me some problems, and i would have to struggle with my faith to continue to believe. i can see where others less stubborn than i (and i do mean stubborn. stubborness has often been the only thing standing between me an atheism from time to time) would fail. the second category arises out of some long-term personal difficulties and the struggle to live my life as god would have me live it without living my life as others would tell me how god would have me live it. a good example of this is my struggle with the more radical christians i meet. i am not, nor have i ever been, "on fire for chirst," and i don't think i ever want to be. nevertheless, i am not "lukewarm" about my faith, so i don't really fit in with the mainstream either. quite naturally, i feel a lot of anxiety about my dislocation within christian society, and it can lead to a lot of internal tension, when i want to do what i _know_ is right, but when another part of me believes that what i want to do is wrong because all the other christians think so to. quite naturally, this tension has a destructive effect on my relationship with god, and during all of this internal strife, there's atheism sitting there like the promised land -- no rules, no responsibilities, no need to live up to anyone's expectations but my own. complete freedom. of course, it's all an illusion, but nevertheless, it's a very appealing illusion, especially when the so-called "people of god" are behaving like total twits. i can easily understand why someone would go that route, and would be hostile to ever coming back. imho, many of the former-christians-turned-atheists-who-are-now-actively- hostile-to-christianity are so because their experience with christ and god wasn't a very peaceful one, but one of mind-control and "shut-up-and-do-what- you're-told-because-we-know-what's-best-for-you-because-it's-god's-will-and- you're-to-young-to-know-what-god's-will-is-yet" courtesy of some of christ's more overzealous followers. a final reason why people become atheists is because christians do not have a very good reputation right now. one of the things that attracted people to christianity in the ancient days was the love that christians obviously had for one another and the world around them. unlike the rest of the world, christian communities actively cared for their poor, and the christian rich did not trod on the backs of their poorer brothers, but bent down to help them. christians were known for living exemplary lives, even if they were thought to be traitors to the state because they wouldn't sacrifice to the emporer. nowadays, courtesy of the media and some christian leaders who lost christ on their way to power, people see christians as sexually-repressed hippocritical busibodies who want to remake society into a facist version of their own moral view. there are a lot more reasons why people become atheists, but i don't have time to go into them right now. tom ault 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21424">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21424" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i think you should give up the amatuer psysochology :). in all candor, i would be happy to be proven wrong. problem is, i will have to be _proven_ wrong. do i sound "broken" to you? absolutely not. i went through a "journey" of lukewarm christianity, agnosticism, atheism, agnosticism, and now (although i know my faith is less than what it should be) christianity again. i think it's a path many of us take. jeff johnson jcj@tellabs.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21425">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21425" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 woo! so far, we've had the following interpretations of the figure of the `whore of babylon' in rev 17 & 18: a) the united states of america b) mho db) which was as a figure of the fallen spiritual powers who corrupt and oppress human society c) historical jerusalem d) historical rome dare i suggest that the passage might be many layered in meaning? how about * the prophecy reveals god's judgement on the corrupt & idolatrous state oppressing his chosen people (d) * that god's judgement extends _especially_ to his once chosen city (c) because, despite that city's special call, it still rejected god's grace at the decisive time (rev 11:8? - also isn't rev19:24 equally suggestive of rome as jerusalem?) * that the usofa is guilty of many of the crimes of rome/babylon (a) and is equally subject to god's judgement * that the good book(tm) actually encompasses _all_ these viewpoints by revealing the corrupting spiritual powers warring against mankind through the very society that we've created. (b) clever, huh? (<-- flame here!) no need to argue at all! i think mary's view has a lot of sense because there seems to be a deliberate contrast between rev 17/18 and rev 21/22 - the mortal jerusalem chosen by god but never (historically) fulfilling its vocation and the new jerusalem perfected (outside of history) purely by god's grace. eg details like rev 17:1 `.. who sits on many waters' cf rev 22 the single stream in the new jersualem `the river of life flowing from the throne of god and of the lamb.' rex - didn't understand your post - what's the relevance of babylonian mystery religions to all this? please elaborate your ideas about ot & the book of rev? why do you freak at the idea of a primarily `spiritual' interpretation of rev? i'd mail, but i can't get thru: unknown or illegal user: reflex@fnal.fnal.gov something you're not telling us? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21426">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21426" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 what is the basis of the idea of hell being a place of eternal suffering? if it is biblical, please reference. here's my train of thought: if god is using the earth to manufacture heavenly beings, then it is logical that there would be a certain yield, and a certain amount of waste. the yield goes to heaven, and the waste is burned (destroyed) in hell. why is it necessary to punish the waste, rather than just destroy it? peace and joy, dale wyttenbach 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21427">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21427" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 as a final note, the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology, in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned. so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in this is a point that seems to have been overlooked by many. the ending of a 1600 year old schism seems to be in sight. the theologians said that the differences between them were fundamentally ones or terminology, and that the christological faith of both groups was the same. some parishes have concelebrated the eucharist, and here in southern africa we are running a joint theological training course for coptic and byzantine there are still several things to be sorted out, however. as far as the copts are concerned, there were three ecumenical councils, whily the byzantine orthodox acknowledge seven. steve hayes, department of missiology & editorial department univ. of south africa, p.o. box 392, pretoria, 0001 south africa internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za fidonet: 5:7101/20 steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org faq: missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21428">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21428" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out: romans 1:27 i corinthians 6:9 i timothy 1:10 jude 1:7 ii peter 2:6-9 gen. 19 lev 18:22 (to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality) but wouldn't that go for any sin. my father told me when he was growing up catholics were not allowed to associate with anyone who was divorced. there are a few verses prohibitting divorce. somehow, divorce became acceptable (even in catholicism anullments). certainly it is no longer a sin to associate with a divorced person. the point is that each person has their own temptations to deal with. paul repeatedly talks about the "thorn" in his side, some think it refers to lust, others pride, but who knows. whatever the thorn was, apparently it was not "compatible" with christianity, yet does that make his epistles any less? the bible warns us against judging, greed, anxiety, impure thoughts, bearing grudges, etc., etc. i suppose we should seek out all the so-called christians who have entertained impure thoughts and oust them. all those who have given in to greed, get 'em outta here. jesus pointed out that he was the physician for the sinners. any attempts to make homosexuals feel unwelcome because of our discomfort with homosexuality is incompatible with christianity. is our hatred so deep that rather than see someone try to become closer to jesus, we need to keep them away. does jesus need us to screen out those guilty of a particular sin. do we really mistrust jesus when he says he can forgive any sin? think about it. among the people jesus encountered were sinners and the pharisees. the sinners he embraced and forgave. the pharisees, hypocritcal, unmerciful, self-righteous, pointed out others sins and did not seek and thus did not gain forgiveness of their own sins. what i take from this and other verses is that if we do not admit our sins, those sins will not be forgiven. and since those guilty of even one sin are guilty of the whole law, those not repenting the judging of others are guilty, as guilty as if they committed the same sin they judged others the poor in spirit, meek, humble, merciful, pure of heart, peacemakers, those who thirst for justice, those who suffer for his sake are blessed. joe moore 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21430">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21430" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 could anyone enlighten me on how the mormon church views children born out of wedlock? in particular i'm interested to know if any stigma is attached to the children as opposed to the parents. i'm especially keen to learn if there is or is not any prohibition in the mormon faith on bastards entering heaven or having their names entered in the big book the mormons keep in salt lake city. if this is an issue on which the "official" position has changed over time, i'm interested in learning both and new beliefs. e-mail or posting is fine. all information or pointers are well, since my wife is (in your gentle term) a "bastard", i can probably speak with a bit of authority on this. any "stigma" associated with children conceived and/or born out of wedlock rests solely upon the parents--they've committed a sexual transgression for which they should repent. the child itself has no a priori limitations on him or her; indeed, the concept of blaming the child for the parents' sins is one most mormons would find appalling; note that lds theology rejects original sin, as the term is usually defined, and the subsequent need for infant baptism (cf. moroni 8 in the book of mormon). indeed, lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children's sins if they have failed to bring them up properly (cf. d&c 68:25-28; note that this passage applies it only to members of the lds church). also note that there is no "big genealogical book in salt lake city". the lds church has a massive storage facility in the nearby mountains containing (on microfilm) vital statistic records (birth, christening, baptism, marriage, death) gathered from all over the entire world. i may be misremembering, but i believe they have records for some 2 billion people in that vault. at the same time, the lds church is building up an on-line genealogical database. in neither case is there some kind of "worthiness screening" as to whether someone can be entered in. the only potential issue is that of establishing who the parents were, and that would apply only in the case of the database. ..bruce.. bruce f. webster | i love the constitution of this land, cto, pages software inc | but i hate the damned rascals that bwebster@pages.com | administer it. #import <pages/disclaimer.h> | -- attributed to brigham young [the following arrived as a separate posting --clh] a follow-up to my own follow-up--lest anyone misunderstand, the term "bastard" is one which i have never in 25 years of lds church membership heard applied, formally or informally, to a child born out of wedlock, and indeed would (rightly) be considered a vulgar, offensive term. i would not have echoed the expression in my reply, except in hopes that the poster would recognize the offensive nature of the word in the given context. unfortunately, after posting my reply, i remembered that subtle points are often lost on the 'net, and figured i'd better spell it out. ..bruce.. bruce f. webster bwebster@pages.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21431">
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 |>you might visit some congregations of christians, who happen to be homosexuals, |>that are spirit-filled believers, not mcc'rs; before you go lumping us all |>together with troy perry. gee, i think there are some real criminals (robbers, muderers, drug addicts) who appear to be fun loving caring people too. so what's your point? is it ok. just because the people are nice? |>isn't satan having a hayday pitting christian against christian over any issue |>he can, especially homosexuality. let's reach the homosexuals for christ. |>let's not try to change them, just need to bring them to christ. if he |>doesn't want them to be gay, he can change that. if they are living a moral |>life, committed to someone of the same sex, and god is moving in their lives, |>who are we to tell them they have to change? i think the old saying " hate the sin and not the sinner" is appropriate here. many who belive homosexuality is wrong probably don't hate the people. i don't. i don't hate my kids when they do wrong either. but i tell them what is right, and if they lie or don't admit they are wrong, or just don't make an effort to improve or repent, they get punished. i think this is quite appropriate. you may want to be careful about how you think satan is working here. maybe he is trying to destroy our sense of right and wrong through feel goodism. maybe he is trying to convince you that you know more than god. kind of like the adam and eve story. read it and compare it to today's mentality. you may be suprised. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21433">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21433" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 | bob reminds me of my roommate. in order to disbelieve atheism, he says | he will need to be proven wrong about it. well, i don't even waste | my time trying. i tell him that he'll just have to take my word for it. | in response, he tells me he will say an "atheist's prayer" for me. who is the "atheist's prayer" being said to? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21437">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21437" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 whitsebd@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (bryan whitsell) writes, i see no other way of interpreting them other than homosexuyality being wrong. please tell me how these verses can be interpreted in any other way. i read them and the surrounding text. but that is exactly what i was asking. if the homosexual community (is that the proper term?) has decided that christianity is not against homosexual behaviour but rather condones it then how do they interpret these verses. i guess what i am really looking for is a "homosexual" response. todd... 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21440">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21440" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 [on secrecy in lds ceremonies. --clh] i think christ summed it up quite nicely when he said something about "casting pearls before swine." why tell people things that are most sacred to you when all they will do with it is belittle it. you have to be little to belittle. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21441">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21441" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i hate to sound flippant, having shot off my mouth badly on the net before, but i'm afraid that much of this material only adds to my feeling that "the assumption of mary" would be better phrased "our assumptions _about_ mary." in all the time i've been reading about mary on this group, i can not recall reading much about mary that did not sound like wishful veneration with scant, if any, scriptural i find in the new testament a very real portrait of christ's parents as compellingly human persons; to be honored and admired for their humility and submission to god's working, beyond doubt. but the almalga- mation of theories and dogma that has accreted around them gives me an image of alien and inhuman creatures, untouched by sin or human desire. only christ himself was so truly sanctified, and even he knew temptation, albeit without submitting to it. i also don't see the _necessity_ of saying the holy parents were some- how sanctified beyond normal humanity: it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god's grace in being incarnated through an or- dinary human being. i won't start yelling about how people are "worshipping" mary, etc., since folks have told me otherwise about that, but i do think we lose part of the wonder of god's incarnation in christ when we make his parents out to be sinless, sexless, deathless, otherworldly beings. paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens . 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21443">
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 and it should be noted that the monophysite chruches of egypt and syria also hold to this belief as part of divine revelation, even though they broke away from the unity of the chruch in 451 ad by rejecting the council of chalcedon. it might be argued by some protestants that the catholics and orthodox made this belief up, but the monophysites, put a big hole in that notion, as they also hold the belief, and they split from the chruch before the belief was first annunciated in writing (as far as is known, much has been lost from the time of the fathers). the belief that the churches of egypt and syria were (or are) monophysite is false, as is the belief that they often held that the council of chalcedon was nestorian. these misunderstandings were exacerbated by political factors, and thus led to schism - a schism that is on its way to being healed. steve hayes, department of missiology & editorial department univ. of south africa, p.o. box 392, pretoria, 0001 south africa internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za fidonet: 5:7101/20 steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org faq: missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21449">
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 as a final note, the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology, in which the heresey of >monophysitism was condemned. so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in sorry! what does the coptic church believe about the will and energy of christ? were there one or were there two (i.e. human and divine) wills and energies in him. also, what is the objection ot the copts with the pope of rome (i.e. why is there a coptic catholic church)? do you reject the supreme jurisdiction of the 263rd sucessor of st. peter (who blessed st. john mark, bishop of alexandria was translator for) and his predecessors? or his infallibility? or what other things perhaps? for your first set of questions (regarding the energy and will of christ) i quote to you the relevant part of the statement signed by both eastern (chalcedonian) and oriental (non-chalcedonian) orthodox scholars a few years ago (both families = both orthodox churches) : 1. both families agreed in condemning the eutychian heresy. both families confess that the logos, the second person of the holy trinity, only begotten of the father before the ages and consubstantial with him, was incarnate and was born from the virgin mary theotokos; fully consubstantial with us, perfect man with soul, body and mind ($ \nu o \upsilon \zeta $); he was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the heavenly father, where he sits on the right hand of the father as lord of all creation. at pentecost, by the coming of the holy spirit he manifested the church as his body. we look forward to his coming again in the fullness of his glory, according to the scriptures. 2. both families condemn the nestorian heresy and the crypto-nestorianism of theodoret of cyrus. they agree that it is not sufficient merely to say that christ is consubstantial both with his father and with us, by nature god and by nature man; it is necessary to affirm also that the logos, who is by nature god, became by nature man, by his incarnation in the fullness of time. 3. both families agree that the hypostasis of the logos became composite by uniting to his divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, which he has in common with the father and the holy spirit, created human nature, which he assumed at the incarnation and made his own, with its natural will and energy. 4. both families agree that the natures with their proper energies and wills are united hypostatically and naturally without confusion, without change, without division and without separation, and that they are distinguished in thought alone. 5. both families agree that he who wills and acts is always the one hypostasis of the logos incarnate. i guess that adresses your question adequately. as for your second set of questions, i am afraid they are irrelevant to the discussion (at least from my point of view) of monophysitism. i do not see how they relate to the topic we are discussing (other than to start an endless orthodox-rc debate which i do not plan to engage into). as a brief answer to your questions, the position of the coptic orthodox church regarding the roman pontiff, his jurisdiction, his infalability, etc. is exactly the same as all the other orthodox churches. / nabil ayoub ____/ __ / ____/ / / engine research center / / / / / / dept. of mechanical engineering ___/ __ / / / / university of wisconsin-madison / / | / / / email:ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu _____/ __/ _| _____/ / 
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 without quoting at length from the preceeding post, i'd just like to say that i find it a much more appropriate way of dealing with issues like the holocaust and bosnia that asserting that "god is punishing them." the activity of god is always _redemptive_, which means "restoring what has been lost, broken, or distorted." so, god does not _will_ the brokenness, lostness, distortion, genocide, poverty, etc, but is nonetheless capable, willing, and active to restore, heal, mend, and redeeem. revdak@netcom.com 
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 comments : chalcedon was a compromise between two groups, the alexandrians and antiochenes. it adopted language that was intended to be acceptable to moderates in both camps, while ruling out the extremes. i agree that there were extremes that were heretical. however in the course of the complex politics of the time, it appears that some people got rejected who didn't intend heresy, but simply used language that was not understood or even was mispresented. and some seem not to have jointed in the compromise for reasons other than doctrine. there are groups descended from both of the supposedly heretical camps. this posting discussed the descendants of the alexandrians. there are also a remaining nestorians. like some of the current so-called monophysites, there is reason to believe that the current so-called nestorians are not heretical either. they sheltered nestorius from what they saw as unfair treatment, but claim they did not adopt his heresies, and in fact seem to follow more moderate representatives of the antiochene tradition. --clh] there is a big difference between the status of what you refer to as alexandrians (actually, this includes all oriental orthodox churches and not only copts) and that of nestorians. the oriental orthodox churches never even "shelter" eutyches (the advocator of monophysitism) but on the contrary, it condemned (and still does condemn) him and his heresy. that is why the eastren (chalcedonian) orthodox church held talks with the oriental (non-chalcedonian) that started 30 years ago and still continueing till today, but they have converged on many issues the most imporatant of which is christology (i have more details of the inter-orthodox dialogue, in case anyone is interested). so i do not see how the "alexandrians" and the nestorians are in a similar position. / nabil ayoub ____/ __ / ____/ / / engine research center / / / / / / dept. of mechanical engineering ___/ __ / / / / university of wisconsin-madison / / | / / / email:ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu _____/ __/ _| _____/ / 
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 04 may 93, d. andrew byler writes to all: [on the athanasian creed] do you have any evidence that it is used by the orthodox churches? as far as i know it is purely western, like the "apostles' creed". the orthodox churches use the "symbol of faith", commonly called "the nicene creed". i have seen it used in an orthodox church once, although i can't recall why. i found it odd, to say the least. also, i object to the statement that the orthodox delete the filioque from the original form of the creed. the creed originally did not contain that phrase, and it is not present in the greek original, which hangs by my desk. not intending to start a flame war. we didn't need to delete what wasn't there. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com 
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 hey folks, i'm fairly new to these groups, tho' some have heard from me before. i'd like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot: what morals/ethics apply to dreams and out-of-body incidents? in normal dreams, you can't control anything, so obviously you aren't morally responsible for your actions. but if you can contrive to control the action in dreams or do an oobe, it seems like a morality applies. now, there seem to be 3 alternatives: 1) dreams and oobes are totally mental phenomena. in this case no morality applies beyond what might be called 'mental hygiene', that is, not trying to think about anything evil, or indulgining in overly sexy or violent 2) dreams and oobes have a reality of their own (i.e. are 'another plane') evidence for this is that often dreams and oobes are sometimes done in common by more than one person. a mark of objective fact is that >1 people report the same objective experience. in this case, the same interpersonal morality/ethics applies in dreams and oobes as does in waking life. 3) like (2), but here we assume that though the dreeam and oobe environs have a real existence, a different moral/ethics apply there, and no (or maybe different) moral laws apply there. so... there it is. is one of these cases the truth, or does anyone know of another alternative? respond by post or email. thanks very much *dt* 
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 in all candor, i would be happy to be proven wrong [about believing in atheism]. problem is, i will have to be _proven_ wrong. in mentioning some nonsense about psychology :) and atheism, bob muir asks the following question. no smiley on the part about atheism, i see. do you realize that your statement says that i was mentioning "nonsense" about atheism? this is hard for me to defend against if this is the claim you are making, as you have only included the last two sentences of my post and mentioned the first. please address the substance of my post rather than rejecting it out of hand. but, because of the sometimes ambiguous nature of english, i may be misinterpreting your wording here. please clarify: did you or did you not mean to call my statements about atheism "nonsense"? if so, care to back up that claim? do i sound "broken" to you? i answer in the affirmative. ok, then. start up the amatuer psycology again. how am i "broken"? is it politically correct for christians to be the only besieged group permitted the luxury of arrogance? *yawn* excuse me, i don't recall any portion of my post in which i called christians arrogant quote me, if i did. i do remember calling christianity "silly" and then following that up with information that i was nine years old when i thought that. i also said that i find faith to be intellectually dishonest and i would like to see some sort of proof of your god's existence. i define "faith" as "belief in the absense of any proof", btw. also, i subscribe to a.a as i mentioned and we see fundies of all types there, so in answer to your question: "no." finally, i'd hardly call christianity "beseiged" in this country. i seldom see christians ridiculed for merely practising their religion or wearing crosses or having christian bumper stickers. i don't know for sure, of course, i only say i haven't seen it happening. what i have seen happening is my homosexual and/or friends being beat up, or preached at by people who claim to be christ's followers. i know that this sort of thing isn't practiced by the majority of christians, but it is a very vocal minority who are doing it and i don't see comperable victimization of christians. now i have a question for bob. why in the world would any self-respecting atheist want to subscribe to a christian news group? the implication being that i am not self-respecting, of course. i'm not a student of psychology, btw, but i am a student of creative writing and linguistics, so literary analysis _is_ my forte. also, if the implications i see are improper, please let me know. i'm here because i'm not sequestered in my own little atheist cubbyhole as you seem to think atheists should be. did it occur to you that i _don't_ think i know everything and that maybe someone will say something that will change my life? have you read my other posts here or did you see "atheist" and decide it was time to poke at someone who doesn't deserve your respect? aw, geez. i'm sorry, i probably am getting my back up a little too high, here. it's just that the "nonsense" thing really annoys me. i figure you should see my first reactions, though, since they are my true reactions to your question. now, the smoothed feather version: i seek all sorts of knowledge. that's why i came to my university. yes, i am looking at your religion (well, sorta, i have no idea what *kind* of christian you are) from the outside, and hopefully with an objective view. i've been trying to ask reasoned questions here, because i genuinely don't know the answers to them, but when i saw the question directed at atheists i figured i would answer. after all, you can speculate about atheist motives here all you want (hence the "amatuer" psychology crack), but without an atheist, you can't be sure of even one atheist's motive. i'm hoping people really want to know and i was trying to show that i actually checked out several religions and i actually read all the pamphlets people have to offer and i actually think about these things. instead, i'm still faced with the implication that atheism is some kind of aberration and that only "broken" people are atheist. try it from the flip side: i posit that atheism is the natural state and only broken people are theists. i offer as proof that so many people witness from horrible lives which picked up as soon as they discovered their religion, that religion is regional (if people didn't follow the religion of their areas, there would be a more homogenous mix), so many terrorists claim theistic motives, and that theists tend to be so pushy and angry when challenged on alt.atheism. why are religions so successful? because there is so much suffering in the world, which "breaks" people. it's an uncomfortable situation whichever way you look at it, which is another reason i'm here, to try to see the flip side of my thinking (and also as a watchdog for logical fallacies :). i have a difficult enough time keeping up with it, and i think i know something about the subject. the implication here being that atheists can't possibly know anything about christianity. probably jumping at shadows again, but i think my reaction is somewhat justified. after all, the first post suggested that atheists are "broken", hostile people. this post confirms that someone else believes it. bob reminds me of my roommate. in order to disbelieve atheism, he says he will need to be proven wrong about it. well, he got me there. i am a strong atheist, because i feel that lack of evidence, especially about something like an omnipotent being, implies lack of existence. however, i haven't met the strong atheist yet who said that nothing could ever persuade him. call me a "seeker" if you like, i don't. _weak_ atheism is being ignore here, though. some atheists simply say "i don't believe in any god" rather than my position: "i believe that no god(s) exist." for the weak atheist, the is no atheism to disbelieve, because they don't actively believe in atheism. (if you think this is confusing, try figuring out the difference between protestants and methodists from an atheist point of view :). this is another fallacy many theists seem to have, that everyone believes in something (followed up by "everyone has faith in something"). guess what? my atheism ends the moment i'm shown a proof of some god's existence. is that really too much to ask? well, i don't even waste my time trying. well, i guess you won't succeed in converting him or me. why the supposition that you will fail to convince him? (amatuer psycology on) is it because you yourself are unconvinced? :) i tell him that he'll just have to take my word for it. and i told you that i find faith to be intellectually dishonest. note that i can only speak for myself. if you find faith to be honest, show me how. i have been unable to reconcile it so far. maybe that's how i'm "broken"? i tell you that i have invisible fairies living in my garden and that you should just take my word for it. if you accept that, you are of a fundamentally different mind than i and i really would like to know how you think. all i ask for is proof of the assertion "god exists". logical or physical proofs only, please. then we'll discuss the nature of "god". in response, he tells me he will say an "atheist's prayer" for me. prayer?! uh, oh, we'll have to revoke his atheist club card and beanie! :) good luck, bob. and, best regards. good luck to you, as well. and, again, i apologize if the inferences i made were inaccurate. randal lee nicholas mandock gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu muppets and garlic toast forever, max (bob) muir [note that abbreviation of quoted pasages is not always the fault of the poster. i sometimes do it in order to get a posting by the 50% rule in inews. --clh] 
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 [ to summarize: while questioning the sagacity of someone who said they would "rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing even one man would spend his "eternal life" being scorched for his wrongdoings..." i described how horrible hell is and compared the above statement with jesus' suffering on the cross in order to prevent people going to hell.] which kenneth engel challenges: did this happen to jesus? i don't think so, not from what i heard. he lived one day of suffering and died. if the wages of sin is the above paragraph, then jesus didn't pay for our sins, did he? i will wimp out and admit that i never liked the metaphor of jesus "paying" for our sins in the sense that many christians accept as literal. the point is that god understands the suffering we go through, not just intellectually like when we watch the somalians on tv, but _really_ understands, he can "feel" our pain. this fact is manifested by jesus' life. we can argue that someone in history might have suffered more than jesus, we can think of more horrible torture than crucifixion, we can think of cases of betrayal and fruitless effort leading to worse despair, but the main point is that jesus is in the trenches with us, he is in everyone, whatever i do to the least of humanity i do to him, and whatever i do for the least of humanity i do for him. now, to reconcile this with the existence of hell is beyond my capabilities, but that wasn't my goal. i'd be surprised to see the moderator let this one through, thankfully our moderator is surprising. but i seriously want a reasonable explanation for this. as i re-read this i must admit that this is more of a description of my faith than an explanation, but perhaps that's all i can do, hopefully that's all i have to do. chris mussack 
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 can't someone describe someone's trinity in simple declarative sentences with words that have common meaning? when i need a kick-butt god, or when i need assurance of the reality of truth, i pray to god the father. when i need a friend, someone to put his arm around me and cry with me, i pray to jesus. when i need strength or wisdom to get through a difficult situation, i pray for the holy spirit. i realize that the above will probably make some people cringe, but what can i say? i think the doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to reconcile jesus being god and being distinct from god, as described in the bible. i wonder if jesus had been a hindu how different the wording would be. chris mussack 
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 since mary was free from 'original sin' she did not exactly die: 'at the end of her life' (as the dogmatic prounouncement says) she was assumed into heaven. the dogma of the assumption does not state whether or not mary died a physical death before being taken into heaven. catholics are free to believe what they wish, whether it be that she was taken still alive, or after having died. i lean somewhat toward the latter myself. steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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 fear-based religion is not a faith-relationship with the one who made us all. so does that mean that anyone who is a christian to avoid hell isn't really a christian at all? it sounds like it to me. if that's the only reason, i'd be inclined to doubt whether or not what they profess is christianity. the relationship of faith is based upon trust. fear and trust are generally incompatible. if my only motivation is fear, is there room for trust? if so, there's room for faith. if fear precludes trust, then there can't be faith. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com 
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 [lots deleted, with which i generally agree; there is no inherently defensible argument for the inclusion or exclusion of the deuterocanonical books] : i think everyone would agree that principles that cannot be : consistently applied are not very useful as principles. : so, if we are to exclude them (not accord them the authority of : scripture) we would appear to require other reasons. what might these : reasons be? lets talk about principles. if we accept that god sets the standards for what ought to be included in scripture - then we can ask: 1. is it authoritative? 2. is it prophetic? 3. is it authentic? 4. is it dynamic? 5. is it received, collected, read and used? on these counts, the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god. to quote unger's bible dictionary on the apocrapha: 1. they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and 2. they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture. 3. they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture. 4. they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling. : my interim conclusion is that protestant exclusion of : (at least one of) these writings is one of those 'traditions : of men' one hears of so often. they were excluded during the : reformation, and that appears to be the reason many people : continue to exclude them. but the problem with this argument lies in the assumption that the hebrew canon included the apocrapha in the first place, and it wasn't until the sixteenth century that luther and co. threw them out. the jewish council you mentioned previously didn't accept them, so the reformation protestants had good historical precedence for their actions. jerome only translated the apocrapha under protest, and it was literally 'over his dead body' that it was included in the catholic canon. the simple fact is that protestant exclusion, roman inclusion, orthodox inclusion of still other books, or any other definition of a closed canon is the decision of a community of faith about what the standard collection of scripture shall be for that community. they _all_ are "traditions of men." whether one considers that to be a problem or not depends on which community happens to be yours, and how you accept/ define authority within it. i personally believe that the concept of a closed canon, whether catholic, protestant, or orthodox is one that developed rather late in the history of the church, and which has not served the church well. how do you then view the words: "i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy, god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (rev 22.18-9) surely this sets the standard and not just man-made traditions. it is also noteworthy to consider jesus' attitude. he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon (john 10.31-6), and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law, prophets and psalms which referred to him - the ot division of scripture (luke 24.44), as well as in luke 11.51 taking genesis to chronicles (the jewish order - we would say genesis to malachi) as scripture. see dr. lee macdonald's _the formation of the christian biblical canon_ (abingdon, 1988) for a clear and faithful examination of the origins and issues of the canon. i am not familiar with the book. some other arguments you might like to consider are found in chapter 3 of josh mcdowell's evidence that demands a verdict. barney resson "many shall run to and fro, & knowledge shall increase" (daniel) 
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 ...there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth. doesn't it say somewhere "it is appointed to man once to die, and then judgement?" i don't have a concordance here but i have some dim memory that this appears *somewhere* in the bible. given a fairly specific context for what judgement is, i'd say that more or less decides the issue. [heb 9:27 --clh] indeed, the immediate context [nasb] is: 26 otherwise, he would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 and inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgement; 28 so christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, not to bear sin, tro those who eagerly await him. the first point is that this verse is part of an even larger context, the subject of which is not the destiny of the individual human soul but rather the singular nature of christ's sacrifice, "once", and the fulfillment of the law for all of fallen mankind. rudolf frieling elaborates this in detail in his "christianity and reincarnation". the thrust of the passage in its context is to liken the one time incarnation and sacrifice of christ for all mankind to the individual experience of the human being after death. the "once" is repeated and emphasized, and it highlights the singularity of christ's deed. one thing for certain it does is to refute the claims of some that christ incarnates more than once. but the comparison to the human experience - die once, then judgement (note: not "the judgement", but just "judgement". the word for judgement is "krisis". hebrews 9:27 is the one passage most often quoted in defense of the doctrine that the bible denies reincarnation. at this point, i would just emphasize again that the passages that (arguably) speak against it are few, and that invariably they are talking about something eles, and the apparent denial of reincarnation is either inferred, or, as in the case of hebrews, taken literally and deposited into an implied context, namely a doctrine of the destiny of the human being after what should be considered seriously is that the bible is essentially silent about the fate of the individual human being between death and the last day. if you take the few passages that could possibly be interpreted to mean a single earth life, they are arguable. and there are other passages that point, arguably, in the other direc- tion. such as matthew 11:14 and john 9:2. we can continue to debate the individual scraps of scripture that might have a bearinig on this, and indeed we should discuss them. but what i wanted to introduce into the discussion was an approach to the idea of repeated earth lives that, unlike hindu, buddhist and "new age" teachings, takes full cognizance of the divinity, singular incarnation, death, burial, resurrection, and second coming of christ as the savior of mankind; the accountability of each individual for his deeds and the reality of the fall and of sin and its consequences; the redemption of man from sin through christ; the resurrection of the body, and the last judgement. taken in this larger sense, many serious questions take on an entirely different perspective. e.g. the destiny of those who died in their sins before christ came. the relationship of faith and grace to works, the meaning of "deathbed conversion", the meaning of the sacraments, and many other things. not that i propose to answer all those questions by a simple doctrine of convenience, but only that the discussion takes on a different dimension, and in my opinion one that is truly worthy of both man, the earth, and their creator and redeemer. there are many deep questions that continue to be deep, such as the meaning of the second death, and how the whole of christian doctrine would apply to this larger perspective of human existence. there are those who deeply believe that the things of which the bible does not speak are not things we should be concerned with. but christ also indicated that there were other things that we would come to know in the future, including things that his disciples (and therefore others) could not bear yet. this idea that the human capacity for growth in knowledge, not only of the individual in one lifetime, but of the whole of humanity, also takes on great meaning when we realize that our growth in the spirit is a long term process. the bible was not meant to codify all spiritual knowledge in one place forever, but to proclaim the gospel of the incarnation and redeeming deed of christ - taking the gospel in the greater context, from genesis to revelation. now, salvation (healing) becomes, not the end of man's sojourn but its beginning. and the last judgement and the new heaven and earth that follow it become its fulfullment. gerry palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 
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 along the way, she was married, happily, to a wonderful and supportive husband and gave birth to two sons. still, everything was not perfect for jane, since she could never open up the deepest part of her soul to her husband. one of the interesting things that jane said in this whole discussion was "homosexuality is not about what goes on in the bedroom." she found that she was much more able to have a deep, committed relationship with a woman than a man. sex, in her mind, is only a part of the whole relationship. it sounds like she has a problem. she has a problem opening up to her husband so she is lesbian. what? in a marrige, a couple is supposed to open up to each other. because she didn't feel comfortable opening up to her husband she gets a divorce and comes to the conclusion that she is lesbian. before anyone gets maried they should make sure that they would feel comfortable "open up the deepest part of her soul to her husband". "sex, in her mind, is only a part of the whole relationship." did she think it was diffrent with a man. that might be her problem. in christ's love, 
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 doesn't the bible say that god is a fair god [sic]? if this is true, how can >this possibly be fair to the infants? [what do you mean fair? god is just, giving to everyone what they deserve. as all infants are in sin from the time of conception (cf romans 5.12, psalm 1.7), they cannot possibly merit heaven, and as purgatory is for the purging of temporal punishment and venial sins, it is impossible that origianl sin can be forgiven.... as st. augustine said, "i did not invent original sin, which the catholic faith holds from ancient time; but you, who deny it, without a doubt are a follower of a new heresy." (de nuptiis, lib. 11.c.12)] why is it fair to punish you, me and the rest of humanity because of what adam and eve did? suppose your parents committed some crime before you were born and one day the cops come to your door and throw you in jail for it. would you really think that is fair? i know i wouldn't. 
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 this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults, since both have souls. infants must be baptized, therefore, or they cannot enter into heaven. they too need this form of life in them, or they cannot enter into heaven. are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior, but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven? 
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 [material deleted] some object to the idea that christianity should involve secrets of any kind. mormon scholars have provided historical evidence of early christian practices which parallel mormon temple ceremonies. obviously one can choose whether or not to subscribe to such a historical interpretation, but mormon practice is not without precedent in christianity. [deletions] i don't necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it, since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy. but i am interested in your claim that early christian practices "parallel" mormon temple ceremonies. could you give an example? also, why do they only parallel mormon ceremonies? why don't mormon ceremonies restore the original christian practices? wasn't that the whole point of joseph smith's stated 
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 [the only reason for the death penalty is revenge?? if you are going to try to refute a position, try to refute the whole position or acknosledge that you are only speaking to small piece of the problem. broad sweeping "the only reason, " etc on as tough nut to crack as the death penalty reallly doesn't help much. every year the fbi releases crime stats showing an overwhelming amount of crime is committed by repeat offenders. people are killed by folks who have killed (who knows how many times) before. how aobut folks who are for the death penalty, not for revenge, but to cut down on recidivism?] your point is well taken. i acknowledge the fact that there are some who take this position. sorry about that. of course, i still believe that the vast majority of those who favor the death penalty, do so for reason of seeking vengeance. i'm curious, if you favor the death penalty to keep killers from killing again, what do you think we should do with people who commit other crimes, such as rape or robbery? isn't it the muslims who cut your hand off if you're caught stealing? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21479">
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 of faith (if you want to know, i feel that faith is intellectually dishonest). i'd appreciate some support for this statement. i'm not sure it really makes sense to me. the ambiguity of religious beliefs, an unwillingness to take pascal's wager, i've heard this frequently - what exactly is pascal's wager? do i sound "broken" to you? i don't know. you point out that your mother's treatment upset you, and see inconsistencies in various religions. i'm not sure if that constitutes broken-ness or not. it certainly consititutes filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals - surgery fil.sapienza@med.umich.edu 
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 that last paragraph just about killed me. the deuterocanonicals have always been accepted as inspired scripture by the catholic church, which has existed much longer than any protestant church out there. it was martin luther who began hacking up the bible and deciding to remove certain books--not the fact that the catholic church decided to add some much later--that is the reason for the difference between "catholic" and "protestant" bibles. this is misleading, at best. the question, really, has to do with the status of the greek septuagint versus hebrew scripture. and the issue predates the reformation by quite a bit -- jerome was negative about the "deuteroncanonicals" and in fact, even though he transalted them, he put them after the hebrew canon (reordered from the greek ordering to the hebrew one.) his translations of them were quick-and-dirty, also (he reports having done one of them in one day, and another overnight, just dictating his translation to an amanuensis. that is to say, it is the vulgate, and all of its massive importance in western christianity, along with the veneration of jerome, which took the first steps in "reducing" these books from the status they had (and have) among the greeks. furthermore, it is inaccurate to say that the reformers "threw out" these books. basically, they just placed them in a secondary status (as jerome had already done), but with the additional warning that doctrine should not be based on citations from these alone. i think that the emphasis on the hebrew originals is sound, though it seems somewhat arbitrary to disallow on the face of it a translation as part of a collection whose principles of selection (in hebrew or greek) are confused or unknown and likely fraught with accident. it also seems to play into a tendentious notion of the original languages being somehow "more inspired" -- as if magical, and conveying a message untranslatable -- than a translation, as if we could not hear god's word to the jews in greek (or german, or english, ...). this tendency seems to have got a big boost in _sola scriptura_ protestantism, even to the point of current "inerrancy" bizarreness, despite the more basic, underlying tendency of the reformers to see that the texts should and could be translated. if we can profit from an english rendering of hebrew and greek, there is surely little reason to keep sirach, at least, out of our bibles (and of course, anglicans don't do so :-)). for texts originally in greek, it would seem more to be anti-greek prejudice (notably, by the time the hebrew canon is fully attested, including anti-christian prejudice which led to the jewish abandonment of the septuagint) which is operative. btw: readers may enjoy some lectures of bruce metzger on the issues of translation of the bible (including some of what i said about jerome, above) in the current numbers of the journal _bibliotheca sacra_; two of four have been published so far. michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21481">
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 does anyone know about the christian embassy in washington dc? what exactly does it do? please respond to lisa@ux1.lbl.gov 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21484">
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 any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out: romans 1:27 i corinthians 6:9 i timothy 1:10 jude 1:7 ii peter 2:6-9 gen. 19 lev 18:22 (to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality) in christ's love, bryan whitsell like we have never heard of, or read these verses before? how about you read them in context, taking into consideration the times and places in which they were written; the local customs and pagan rituals; what the surrounding verses are talking about and how they interact with the rest of the bible. there are many issues in the bible that are argued, and can be argued successfullly from both sides of an issue. some examples that come to mind gifts of the spirit when the rapture will occur(pre or post tribulation) how people should be baptized to name a few. i have found nothing in scripture that condemns me, or anyone else, for having a monogamous relationship with the person whom i love, even if we are the same sex. i'm sorry if i am coming across as heated. it's just that the lord has been so dear to me the last several years and i'm tired of hearing this same old thing from people who believe what their told rather than finding out for check it out for yourself. invite the holy spirit to guide you. if i weren't confident of this i wouldn't invite you to do this. god bless 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21489">
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 searching out our deceased ancestors so that we can perform the ordinances -- such as baptism, confirmation, and marriage for time and eternity -- that are required for a person to obtain salvation through christ and to live with him through the eternities. these are people who may have not had the opportunity to know christ in their lifetime, so we are making it possible for christ's saving grace (i know there are thousands of interpretations of that phrase) to become fully effective for them if they allow it to do so on the other side. this paragraph brought to mind a question. how do you (mormons) reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ's statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage (luke, chapt. 20)? david hammerslag (dhammers@urbana.mcd.mot.com) "...there ain't nobody so bad that the lord can't save 'em ain't nobody so good they don't need god's love..." -- mullins 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21490">
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 when the protestant reformers opposed and subsequently separated from the church of rome, the battle cry of the new protesting religion was "the bible, the whole bible, and nothing but the bible". underlying that cry was a theory that if people could read the bible for themselves in their native tongue they would discover the truth about god and his purpose. they would shed their old errors and be united by a common faith. this idea, that the reformers somehow were the first to bring the bible to the people in their own language, is a myth. many vernacular translations of the bible existed long before the reformation. the vulgate bible, which is still the official version of the bible for the catholic church, was itself a translation in the common (i.e. vulgar == vulgate) tongue of its day, latin, and had existed for about a millenium before the reformation. it might also be noted that the printing press was not even invented until the same century as that in which the reformation occurred. steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21493">
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 in history seems to imply some pretty serious sin. the one of the pastors in the church i attend, christchurch city elim, considers that a prophesy of a natural disaster as a "judgement from the lord" is a clear sign that the "prophesy" is not from the lord. i would like to see his reasoning behind this. you may have gotten "burned" by natural disaster prophecies down there, but that does not mean that every natural disaster/judgement prophecy is false. take a quick look at the book of jeremiah and it is obvious that judgement prophecies can be valid. here in the us, it seems like we might have more of a problem with positive prophecies, though i am sure there may be a few people who are too into judgement. sometimes god does give words that are difficult to swallow. the relative positiveness of a prophecy is not necesarily grounds to dismiss it. much of the ot is not happy stuff. link hudson. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21494">
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 i am interested in finding out why people become atheists after having believed in some god/god. in conversing with them on other groups, i've often sensed anger or hostility. though i don't mean to imply that all atheists are angry or hostile, it does seem to be one motivation for giving up faith. thus, some atheism might result from broken-ness. this is condescending at best and a slightly disquised ad hominem attack. this attitude on the part of many theists, especially the vocal ones, is one reason for the hostility you sense. how do you like it when atheists say that people turn to religion out of immature emotionalism? i wouldn't and don't. i thought i did a pretty good job of qualifying my statement, but apparently some people misinterpreted my intentions. i apologize for my part in communicating any confusion. my intent was more to stir up discussion rather than judge. it seems to have worked. [rest of post noted - by the way, i did not originally post this to alt.atheism. if it got there, i don't know how it did.] filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals - surgery fil.sapienza@med.umich.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21497">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21497" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 it troubles me that there have been so many posts recently trying to support the doctrine of original sin. this is primarily a catholic doctrine, with no other purpose than to defend the idea of infant baptism. even among, its supporters, however, people will stop short of saying that unbaptised infants will go to hell. it's very easy for just about anyone to come up with a partial list of scripture to support any sort of wrong doctrine. however, if we have the heart to persevere in our beliefs to make sure that they are biblically based, then we can come to an understanding of the truth. let's now take a more complete look at scripture. colossians 2:11-12 "in him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of god, who raised him from the dead." in baptism, we are raised to a new life in christ (romans 6:4) through a personal faith in the power of god. our parent's faith cannot do this. do infants have faith? let's look at what the bible has to say about it. romans 10:16-17 "but not all the israelites accepted the good news. for isaiah says, 'lord, who has believed our message?' consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of christ." so then we receive god's gift of faith to us as we hear the message of the gospel. faith is a possible response to hearing god's word preached. kids are not yet spiritually, intellectually, or emotionally mature enough to respond to god's word. hence they cannot have faith and therefore cannot be raised in baptism to a new life. ezekiel 18:20 "the soul who sins will die. the son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." if you read all of ezekiel 18, you will see that god doesn't hold us guilty for anyone else's sins. so we can have no original guilt from adam. ezekiel 18:31-32 "rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committted, and get a new heart and a new spirit. why will you die, o house of israel? for i take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the sovereign lord. repent and live!" the way to please god is to repent and get a new heart and spirit. kids cannot do this. acts 2:38-39 says that when we repent and are baptized, we will then receive a new spirit, the holy spirit. then we shall live. now then that we have a little more background as to why original sin is not biblical, let's look at some of the scriptures used to support it. romans 5:12 "therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--" sin and death entered the world when the first man sinned. death came to each man because each man sinned. note that it's good to read through all of romans 5:12-21. some of the verses are easier to misunderstand than others, but if we read them in context we will see that they are all saying basically the same thing. let's look at one such. romans 5:19 "for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." through the disobedience of each individual, each was made a sinner. in the same way, through the obedience of jesus, each will be made righteous. we must remember when reading through this passage that death came to each man only because each man sinned, not because of guilt from adam. otherwise the bible would contradict itself. i encourage you to read through this whole passage on your own, looking at it from this point of view to see if it doesn't all fit together. psalm 51:5 "surely i was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble ourselves before god in repentance for sinning. david himself was a man after god's own heart and wrote the psalm after committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband. all that david is saying here is that he can't remember a time when he wasn't sinful. he is humbling himself before god by confessing his sinfulness. his saying that he was sinful at birth is a hyperbole. the bible, being inspired by god, isn't limited to a literal interpetation, but also uses figures of speech as did jesus (john 16:25). for another example of hyperbole, see luke 14:26. now then, even though people see that baptism requires faith and that original sin is not biblical, they will still argue that infant baptism is necessary because children sin by being selfish - not sharing toys with other children, by being mean - hitting others and fighting, etc. certainly we have observed children doing wrong things, but my gut feeling is always that they don't know any better. let's look to see if the bible agrees with my gut feelings. isaiah 7:14-15 "therefore the lord himself will give you a sign: the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him immanuel. he will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right." now just about any church leader will tell you that this is a prophecy about jesus. if they don't, then point them to matthew 1:23 and find a new leader. jesus certainly couldn't have had less knowledge than normal human babies. yet this passage says that he had to mature to a certain extent before he would know the difference between right and wrong. we see that he did grow and become wiser in luke 2:40 and 2:52. the implication is that jesus did wrong things as a child before he knew to choose right over wrong. since we know that jesus was perfect -- without sin, we have rather conclusive proof that babies cannot sin because they don't know to choose the right instead of the wrong. jesus himself was baptized, albeit with john's baptism, not as an infant, but as a thirty-year-old man (luke 3:21-23) and started his ministry as soon as he was baptized (luke 3:23). immediately afterwards, he was tempted by the devil (luke 4:1-13; matthew 4:1-11; mark 1:12-13). thank you for your attention. moderator - this should finish up the subject for a while. perhaps you would like to make a faq out of this response so that you can repost it from time to time when the topic comes up. feel free to rearrange the contents if you would like to, but please send me a copy of the final faq. aaron cardenas aaronc@athena.mit.edu [i think you're overly optimistic about the authoritative quality of your response. first, original sin is not a catholic-only doctrine. it was held by luther and calvin as well, and is still present in one form or another in the lutheran and reformed traditions. second, saying that it has no other purpose than defending infant baptism is an ad hominem argument, which has considerable evidence against it. the original baptist theology included original sin, and some baptists still hold it. and there are certainly groups that baptize infants without believing in original sin. among protestants, the sacraments tend to be a bit more symbolic than among catholics. protestants who baptize infants see baptism as a sign of god's acceptance of us, rather than our acceptance of god. in traditional protestant theology, god's grace precedes our response, and is applicable to children. there are a number of passages one can cite to indicate that god accepts even children. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21503">
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 "hate the sin but love the sinner"...i've heard that quite a bit recently, often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality... but the context really isn't that important. my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity. i would think not. hate begets more hate, never love. consider some sin. i'll leave it unnamed since i don't want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin. now lets apply our "hate the sin..." philosophy and see what happens. if we truly hate the sin, then the more we see it, the stronger our hatred of it will become. eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner. in addition, our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and do things which are taken personally by the sinner (who often does not even believe what they are doing is a sin). after enough of this, the sinner begins to hate us (they certainly don't love us for our constant criticism of their behavior). hate builds up and drives people away from god...this certainly cannot be a good way to build love. in the summary of the law, christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors. he doesn't say anything about hate. in fact, if anything, he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves. so, how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others? i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin (either in others or ourselves)...through prayer. we need to ask god to help us with our own sin, and to help those we love with theirs. only love can conquer sin...hatred has no place. the best way to love someone is to pray for them. this is my signature. there are many like it, but this one is mine. scott holt internet: scott@prism.gatech.edu georgia tech uucp: ..!gatech!prism!scott office of information technology, technical services 
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 : it's my understanding that the u.s. supreme court has never : given a legal definition of religion. this despite the many : cases involving religion that have come before the court. : can anyone verify or falsify this? : has any state or other government tried to give a legal : definition of religion? according to the legal practices of today's america, i imagine the legal definition of religion, if defined, may resemble the following: "any system of belief or practice to which people are committed for the benefit of society which must, in the opinion of secular thought, be isolated from political and educational influence." "should any system of belief or practice to which people are committed be harmful or void of any benefit to society in the opinion of religious thought as defined in the previous paragraph, isolation of such from political and educational influence would constitute unreasonable censorship and an unlawful violation of civil rights." someday, perhaps they'll legalize benevolence :-) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21510">
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 romans 1:27 i corinthians 6:9 i timothy 1:10 jude 1:7 ii peter 2:6-9 gen. 19 lev 18:22 (to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality) homosexual christians have indeed "checked out" these verses. some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations. others simply do not address the issues. you would seem to be more in need of a careful and spirit-led course in exegesis than most of the gay christians i know. i suggest that you stop "proof-texting" about things you know nothing about. well, michael, i don't know if clh has left them in the faq (maybe you should post the "how to get there map again), but i posted two or three lengthy exegetical paper on these verses. they looked at the ot, nt and intertestimental usages of terms in reference. i would suggest you read those before you talk about a "need" in exegetical studies. if those aren't enough, i could also provide "the source and nt meaning of apsevokoitai". dr james deyoung published it in the masters seminary journal in fall of '92. to read any of these 4 papers shows that the shoe is on the other foot as far as a need for honest exegesis. again, please refer to the faq file, or if you are unable to acess it, drop me a line and i will enclose them to you. rexlex@fnal.fnal.gov [they're in a separate file, which i gave a pointer to in my posting yesterday. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21512">
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 therefore, until someone is capable of comprehending god's laws they are not accountable for living them. they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god. a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn't the bible ever say so. it never comes right and says "only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised." what christ did say was : "i solemly assure you, no one can enter god's kingdom without being born of water and spirit ... do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above." could this be because everyone is born with original sin? do we attach some meaning of the israelites entering "the promised land" to i submit god did not hold the children responsible when the adults chose to follow the bad report of the 10 spies over joshua and caleb. this is recorded for us in deuteronomy 1:39 "moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will i give it, and they shall possess it." at least to me it seems there was/is an age, or point in maturity where they were/are held responsible, and could not enter the "promised land", younger ones were not held to the same "rules", at least not by god. | "answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." | | "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." | | (proverbs 26:4&5) 
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 there are various explanations for her reaction to the angel's greeting. one is that she grasped what the angel was getting at, that she was to be the mother of the messiah. and knew what this entailed, all the suffering. this gave her a moment's pause. a priest i know gave me an interesting explanation. he said that the words of mary point not to doubt or troubled thoughts, but rather to complete humbleness. those who are humble and do not revel in themselves frequently are confused when given high praise about themselves, as mary would rightly be. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21514">
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 i have enrolled in "the history of christianity" at a college here in st. louis. the teacher of the class is what i consider to be closed-minded and bigotted on the subject of what the definition of christianity is. his definition is tied directly to that of the trinity and the catholic church's definition of it and belief in jesus christ is not sufficient to call one's self a christian. while his saying it doesn't make it so, i nevertheless feel insulted (or am i just neurotic? :^) ). i would like to be able to respond to him with some sense of literacy while maintaining an amiable student-teacher relationship. so, is there common definition of what christianity is? as the previous discussion of the trinity did not lend itself to an exchange of flames, i am hopeful that this will also not produce major larry autry silicon graphics, st. louis autry@sgi.com [often we get into discussions about who is christian. unfortunately there are a number of possible definitions. starting from the broadest, commonly used definitions are: a historical definition people who accept christ as lord and savior a broad doctrinal definition narrow doctrinal definitions 1) by a historical definition i mean the sort of definition a secular historian would likely use. this would include any group that developed out of the christian church, and continues within the same broad culture. e.g. some unitarians would fail just about any doctrinal test you could come up with. yet it's clear that that group developed from christianity, and people from very different backgrounds (e.g. hindus) would likely see them as part of christianity. this is not a definition most christians like, but it's relevant in some political and ethnic contexts. 2) accepting christ as lord and savior is a test used by many christian groups for membership, e.g. the southern baptists and presbyterian church (usa). i would qualify it by saying that what most people have in mind is an exclusive commitment to christ, so that someone who accepted christ as one of many gods would not fit. it's an attempt to formulate a criterion that is religious but is not based on technical doctrine. by this definition, groups such as arians would be viewed as heretical christians, but still christians. in the modern context this would include mormons, jw's, and "oneness pentecostals". they would be viewed as heretical christians, but still christian. in practice i believe just about everyone who falls into this category would accept the apostle's creed. 3) the next level is an attempt to give a broad doctrinal definition, which includes all of the major strands of christianity, but excludes groups that are felt to be outside "historic christianity." this is of course a slippery enterprise, since catholics could argue that protestants are outside historic christianity, etc. but i think the most commonly accepted definition would be based on something like the nicene creed and the formula of chalcedon. the attempt is to characterize doctrines that all major strands of christianity agree are key. obviously this is to some extent a matter of judgement. a mormon will regard the lds church as a major strand, and thus will not want to include anything that contradicts their beliefs. but i think this definition would have fairly broad acceptance. 4) finally, some people use definitions that i would say are limited to a specific christian tradition. e.g. some evangelicals only consider someone christian if he has had an evangelical-style conversion experience, and some i've even heard of groups that limit it to their specific church. i think you can find contexts where each of these definitions is used. a lot is going to depend upon the purpose you're using it for. if you're using it descriptively, e.g. in history or anthropology, you'll probably use definition 1 or 2. if you're using it normatively, i.e. to say what you believe the christian message is, you'll probably use a definition like 3 or even 4. --clh] 
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 i am writing a paper on religion and how it reflects and or affects modern music. this brief questionaire is summary of the questions i would like answered. a response is requested and can be mailed to me directly at: gtd259a@prism.gatech.edu *please mail - do not post* thanks in advance, matt kressel 1.) how do you feel about groups like diecide, slayer, and dio who freely admit to practicing satanism and preach it in their songs? 2.) how do you feel about groups like petra, old stryper, whitecross, and holy soldier who promote and sing about cristianity? 3.) how do you feel about groups like front 242, xtc, revolting cocks, minor threat, and ministry who condone and sing about atheism? 4.) how do you feel about bands like shelter who preach the hare krishna religion and other minority(but not unheard of) religions? 5.a) do you feel there is any difference between promoting music that supports cristianity and music that condones satanism? b) why do you feel this way? 6.) what types of music do you listen to? 7.a) how often do you purchase music? b) how often does that music contain lyrics with undertones in 8.a) do you feel that music one listens to affects the way one views a particular religion? religion in general? b) how does it affect the way you view your religion? all religions? 9.) feel free to add any comments here matthew owen kressel(gtd259a@prism.gatech.edu) "...nothing settles a man's mind more wonderfully than the knowledge that he will be hanged in the morning." - arthur c. clarke 
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 this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults, since both have souls. infants must be baptized, therefore, or they cannot enter into heaven. they too need this form of life in them, or they cannot enter into heaven. are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior, but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven? my feeling on baptism is this: parents baptize their baby so that the baby has the sanctifying grace of baptism (and thus removal of original sin) on its soul in the event of an unexpected death. that is, the parents speak on behalf of the child which is too young to speak on its own. this should not surprise anyone: don't parents *always* do what they believe is the best for their baby? why would that apply to the baby's physical needs only but not his/her spiritual needs to have god's grace? the purpose of confirmation is for the baby (now young adult) to decide to re-affirm for himself/herself the promises that his/her parents made at baptism. that is where accepting jesus into your heart comes in. in baptism, the parents ask jesus to come into their baby's heart; at confirmation the child repeats that request (by the way, these are my personal feelings, though i believe they are pretty close to what the doctrinal position of the catholic church on this issue. can anyone out there back me up or correct me? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21526">
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 between adam and eve and golgotha the whole process of the fall of man occurred. this involved a gradual dimming of consciousness of the spiritual world. this is discernable in the world outlooks of different peoples through history. the greek, for example, could say, "better a beggar in the land of the living than a king in the land of the dead." (iliad, i think). i would not swear that nothing of the sort is found in the iliad, but the first passage i thought of was the odyssey 11:480 or thereabouts (my copy has no line numbers). the ghost of acchilles speaks (robert fitzgerald translation): better, i say, to break sod as a farm hand for some poor country man, on iron rations, than lord it over all the exhausted dead. the next passage i thought of was from ecclesiastes 9:4 + a living dog is better than a dead lion. on the other hand, there is one notion firmly embedded in christianity that originated most definitely in a pagan source. the idea that the human being consists essentially of soul only, and that the soul is created at birth, was consciously adopted from aristotle, whose ideas dominated christian thought for fifteen hundred years and still does today.... surely aristotle had little influence on christian thought before about 1250 ad. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21527">
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 mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes. she referred to herself as the immaculate conception. since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine, the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine. bernadette was 14 years old when she had her visions, in 1858, four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the james kiefer 
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 we chose to believe whetever we want, but we are not allowed to define our own christianity. we see in parts. if you see something that i do not see, or vice versa, it does not give me the right to play jokes on your belief! it is important if christianity is being damaged by it. if people who "speak in tongues" make claims that they are miraculously speaking a foreign language through the power of the holy spirit, when it can easily be shown that they are simply making noises, it damages all christians, since many who are not christians do not distinguish between the various sects. the more modest claim for "tongues" that it is simply uncontrolled praise in which "words fail you" is surely the one that should be used by those who make use of this practice. i agree with the point that "charismatic" practices like this can lead to forms of worship which are more about the worshipper showing off than genuine praise for god; one of the things jesus warned us about. matthew huntbach 
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 gerry palo wrote that there is nothing in christianity that excludes the theory of a succession of lives. i wrote that the apostle paul, in romans 9, speaks of god as choosing jacob over esau, and adds that this is not as a result of anything that either child had done, since they had not been born clearly, paul does not believe that they had had previous lives, nor does he suppose that his readers will believe it. for if they had had previous lives, it would not make sense to say, "neither of them has done anything good or bad as yet, since they are not yet born." daniel cossack writes to ask whether it is fair for god to hate easau when esau has done nothing bad? i reply that in hebrew it is standard usage to speak of hating when what is meant is simply putting in second place. as an example, consider the saying in matthew 6:24 + no man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one + and love the other, or.... now, it is obviously false that a man with two masters must hate one of them. but it is obviously true that he must put one of them in second place. a dog that always comes when either billy or bobby calls will have a problem if they stand in different places and call simultaneously. it cannot give first priority to both. one must take second place. in our original example, second place means that jacob, not esau, is chosen to bear the covenant blessing and obligation, and to be the ancestor of christ. eugene bigelow mentions matthew 11:14 which says of john the baptist: + and if ye will receive it, this is elijah, who was to come. i take this to mean that john was an elijah-like figure, dressing and living like elijah, preaching like elijah, and fulfilling the prediction that elijah would prepare the way for the messiah. i do not think that he was elijah in a literal sense, and, appareently, neither did he (john 1:21). james kiefer 
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 this is a rfd on a proposal for a newsgroup which would promote a sharing on the "johannine hours" as proposed each month by the monks of the ecumenical community of taize (pronounced te-zay) in france. name of proposed newsgroup: soc.religion.taize (unmoderated) purpose of the group: the taize community is an international ecumenical community of monks based in france. many young adults come there to search for meaning in their life and to deepen their understanding of their faith through a sharing with others. this newsgroup will allow such a sharing through a monthly "johannine hour" which will be posted at the beginning of each month. a "johannine hour" involves a short commentary on a given bible passage, followed by some questions for reflection. any thoughts that may arise in consequence and that you wish to share with others can be posted here. we are not interested in theological debate, and even less in polemics. no expertise is required! the idea is to help one another to deepen our understanding of scripture as it is related to our own life-journey. the idea of "johannine hours" was born in taize as a simple response to all those who were trying to assimilate the bible's message in the midst of their daily life. because of work or studies, it is often impossible to spend long hours in silence and reflection, but everyone can take an hour from time to time to enter a church, sit quietly at home or go out for a walk in the woods. there, in silence, we can meditate on a passage of scripture to listen to the voice of during the time of silence, it is important to concentrate on what we understand and not waste time worrying if, in some biblical expressions, we find it difficult to hear the voice of christ. the idea is to communicate to others what we have understood of christ, not burdening them with our own hesitations but rather telling them what has brought us joy, what has led us to run the risk of trusting more deeply. perhaps those who read and think about the "johannine hours" in this newsgroup could share their reflections and discoveries with others. the important thing is the complementarity between two aspects, the personal aspect of silent, personal reflection and the communal aspect of sharing, which through usenet makes us a part of a worldwide network. background of the taize community: the following provides some background information on the life and vocation of the taize (pronounced te-zay) community. "a parable of communion": august 1940, with europe in the grip of world war ii, brother roger, aged 25, set up home in the almost abandoned village of taize, in eastern france. his dream: to bring together a monastic community which would live out "a parable of community", a sign of reconciliation in the midst of the distress of the time. centering his life on prayer, he used his house to conceal refugees, especially jews fleeing from the nazi occupation. an international and ecumenical community: taize's founder spent the first two years alone. others joined him later and at easter 1949, seven brothers committed themselves together to common life and celibacy. year by year, still others have entered the community, each one making a lifelong commitment after several years of preparation. today, there are 90 brothers, catholics and from various protestant backgrounds, from over twenty different countries. some of them are living in small groups in poor neighbourhoods in asia, africa, north and south america. the brothers accept no donations or gifts for themselves, not even family inheritances, and the community holds no capital. the brothers earn their living and share with others entirely through their own work. in 1966, sisters of saint andrew, an international catholic community founded 750 years ago, came to live in the neighbouring village, to share the responsibility of welcoming people in taize. taize and the young; the intercontinental meetings: young adults, and less young, have been coming to taize in ever greater numbers since 1957. hundreds of thousands of people from europe and far beyond have thus been brought together in a common search. intercontinental meetings take place each week, sunday to sunday, throughout the year and they include youth from between 35 and 60 countries during any one week. the meetings give each person the opportunity to explore the roots of their faith and to reflect on how to unite the inner life and human solidarity. the meetings in summer can have up to 6,000 participants a week. three times every day, the brothers and everybody on the hill come together for common prayer in the church of reconciliation, built in 1962 when the village church became too "a pilgrimage of trust on earth" the community has never wanted to create a "movement" around itself. instead, people are called to commit themselves in their church at home, in their neighbourhood, their city or village. to support them in this, taize has created what it calls "a pilgrimage of trust on earth". at the end of each year, the pilgrimage has a "european meeting" which brings together tens of thousands of young adults from every part of europe for several days in a major city. there have also been meetings in asia and in the united states. every year, brother roger writes an open letter to the young. usually completed during a stay in one of the poor regions of the world, these are translated into thirty languages and provide themes for reflexion for the following year. note: discussion on the creation of this newsgroup will take place in news.groups. for any further information contact: brother.roy@almac.co.uk brother.roy@almac.co.uk . 1st 1.10b #332 . taize-community, 71250 taize, france 
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 [much deleted] point today might be the masons. (just a note, that they too worshipped osiris in egypt...) [much deleted] it bugs me when i see this kind of nonsense. first, there is no reasonable evidence linking masonry to ancient egypt, or even that it existed prior to the late 14th century (and there's nothing definitive before the 17th). my wifes uncle was a 30+ level mason. he let me look at some of the books (which after his death his "brothers" came over and took from his greiving widow before his body had even cooled). don't tell me you don't worship osiris. you must not be past your 20th level. you should read wilkinson's egyptians and how he shows this egyptian religion paralleling his own british masonry. there is a man here at this laboratory who is a 33 degree black mason. i've talked with him, though much he likes to hide ("mystery"). special handshakes and all. when he first started trying to "evangelize" me, he told me all kinds on special this, and special that. here is truely a "mystery" religion. there is the public side with motorcyle mania and childrens hospitals and then there is the priviate side that only the highest degree mason every learns of. second, worship of osiris is not, nor has it ever been, a part of masonic practice (we are strictly non-denominational). i haven't read it, but the literature that is offered by the silver haired apologist (can't remember his name) on tv, didn't exactly come to this same "khons, the son of the great goddess-mother, seems to have been gernaerally represented as a full-grown god. the babylonian divinity was also represented very frequently in egupt in the very same wayas in the land of his nativity -i.e. as a child in his mother's arems. this was the way in which osiris, 'the son, the husband of his mother,' was often exhibited, and what we learn of this god, equally as in the case of khonso, shows that in his original he was none other than nimrod. it is admitted that the secret system of free masonry was originally founded on the mysteries of the egyptian isis, the goddess-mother, or wife of osiris. but what could have led to the union of a masonic body with these mysteries, had they not had particular reference to architecture, and had the god who was worshipped in them not been celebrated for his success in perfecting the arts of fortification and building? now, if such were the case, considering the relation in which, as we have already seen, egypt stood to babylon, who would naturally be liiked up to there as the great patron of the masonic art? the strong presumption is, that nimrod must have been the man. he was the first that gained faim in this way. as the child of the babylonian goddess-mother, he was worshipped in the character of ala mahozim, 'the god of fortification.' osiris, the child of the egyptian modonna, was equally celebrated as 'the strong chief of the buildings.' this strong chief of the buildings was origninally worshipped in egypt with every physicall characteristic of nimrod. i have already noticed the fact that nimrod, as the son of cush, was a negro. now, there was a tradition in egypt, recorded by plutarch, that 'osiris was black'......." hislop it was like a cold slap to my face, when my wifes uncle brought out his cerimonial dress and it was leopard skin. i mean real leopard skin. he told me that only the highest of degrees wore the leopard skin. (the reason that he started telling me all this was that he had just been given a couple of months to live and my wife had led him to a saving faith in christ and he immediately repented from 'mysteries' of the lodge!) nimr-rod from nimr, a "leopard," and rada or rad "to subdue." it is a universal principle in all idolatries, that the high priest wears the insignia of the god he serves. any representation of osiris usually show the wearing of some leopard. it is interesting that the druids of britian also show, or should i say hide, this representation. they, however, worshipped the "spotted cow". i'll stand by my statements. masonry is of the "mystery" religions that all find their source in babylon, the great harlot. sorry peter, i do not mean to be a "cold slap to the face" but there is to much evidence to the contrary that masonry doesn't find its origins in egypt. of the masons i have personally talked to, all refered to egypt as their origin. why are you now separating yourself from this which not many years ago, was freely admitted? 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21540">
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 this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults, since both have souls. infants must be baptized, therefore, or they cannot enter into heaven. they too need this form of life in them, or they cannot enter into heaven. are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior, but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven? i don't think joe was saying any such thing. however, your question on "asking jesus to come into your heart" seems to imply that infants are not allowed to have christ in theirs. why must baptism always be viewed by some people as a sort of "prodigal son" type of thing; i.e. a sudden change of heart, going from not accepting christ to suddenly accepting christ? why can't people start out with christ from shortly after birth, and build their relationship from there? after all, does a man suddenly meet a woman, and then marry her that same day? from my experiences, i've learned that all relationships must be built, including one's relationship with god. also joe is speaking from the standpoint that baptism is not just a ritual, but that through it god bestows sacramental grace upon the recipient. certainly for those with the mental faculties to know christ it is necessary to believe in him. however, the sacrament itself bestows grace on the recipient, and makes a permanent mark of adoption into god's family on the soul. steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21541">
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 i wrote that i thought that 2 peter 1:20 meant, "no prophecy of scripture (or, as one reader suggests, no written prophecy) is merely the private opinion of the writer." tony zamora replies (sat 8 may 1993) that this in turn implies that it is not subject to the private interpretation of the reader either. i am not sure that i understand this. in one sense, no statement by another is subject to my private interpretation. if reliable historians tell me that the athenians lost the pelopennesian war, i cannot simply interpret this away because i wanted the athenians to win. facts are facts and do not go away because i want them to be otherwise. in another sense, every statement is subject to private interpretation, in that i have to depend on my brains and expereience to decide what it means, and whether it is sufficiently well attested to merit my assent. even if the statement occurs in an inspired writing, i still have to decide, using my own best judgement, whether it is in fact inspired. this is not arrogance -- it is just an inescapable fact. james kiefer 
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 [there's some ambiguity about the meaning of the words in the passage you quote. both liberal and conservative sources seem to agree that "homosexual" is not the general term for homosexuals, but is likely to have a meaning like homosexual prostitute. from what i understand of my experience in looking up this word, and discussing it with a greek-literate individual, the meaning of the word is rather clear. basically it literally means "he who beds with a man" or "he who has sex with a man." the burden of proof is on the pro-homosexuality side of the argument to show that the word has an idiomatic meaning nor evident from its literal meaning. one can speculate all day long that it might mean something else, but we need evidence before we create new doctrines, and get rid of the historical understanding of the meaning of this word. link hudson. [i've read enough discussions of this passage, in both liberal and conservative sources, to be sure that the meaning -- even the literal meaning -- is not certain. that doesn't mean one can't come to some conclusion, nor does it mean that i think there's any doubt about what paul thinks of homosexuality. but there are plausible arguments for a couple of different meanings. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21545">
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 : arrogance is arrogance. it is not the result of religion, it is the result : of people knowing or firmly believing in an idea and one's desire to show : others of one's rightness. i assume that god decided to be judge for our : sake as much as his own, if we allow him who is kind and merciful be the : judge, we'll probably be better off than if others judged us or we judged : ourselves. i'm not sure i agree with this 100%. i agree that arrogance is not the result of religion and that god is a far better judge than we are. i also agree if you mean to say that arrogance shows up in the form of trying to prove one's superior knowledge, rightness, or holiness over another person's beliefs. i need to be careful to understand what you mean here so that i do not fall into the mistake of misrepresenting your views. if i fall down in this area i hope you will forgive me. arrogance is not the result of believing one is right or of believing that one's god is greater than the god's of others or of believing that one's religion is better than other religions. these are all naturally self-implied it is self-contradictory to say that i believe my current beliefs to be wrong. were i to find myself in error, my beliefs would naturally change and follow what i believe to be right. therefore, i must always consider my beliefs correct. that's not arrogance. that's unavoidable behavior. it is nonsense to say that i believe another person's god to be greater than my god. were his or her god greater, wouldn't i be obligated to change so that their god would become my god? we are naturally obligated to worship that god which we deem to be the greatest. why should we feel obligated to worship a second best god for the sake of feeling humble? arrogance is not necessarily thinking onesself to be better looking or more intelligent or stronger or having more resources than another person. no doubt many will have to chew on this one awhile. were passive observation of one's superior points arrogance, then god would be most arrogant of all. humility does not rest in slandering or belittling god's work of creation in our lives. people often go around trying to be humble saying to one another, "i'm not very smart. i'm poor. i'm not good looking. i'm just a worm in the ground. i'm such a weak person and although i don't want to sin, i really cannot help it." were this person truely humble, he would take a different approach. "god, thank you for making me the way you did. i know that you never do anything second best. yet with all that you have given me, i have been so unthankful. you've given me power to resist the devil. i have not used it but have indulged myself in doing exactly what you have said not to do. i have slandered your creation in my life and have credited myself with humility for doing so. lord, with all you've given me, i have been completely unfaithful and i do not deserve your forgiveness. and, yet your love for me is so boundless that you would give yourself to die for me to save me. as terribly evil as i am, i deserve to go straight to hell, yet it pleases you somehow to rescue me from this terrible life i've led. lord, please forgive me and help me stay on the right track so that i can bring glory to your name instead of insult. lord i'm so sorry for my wrongs. please help me to change." : i think people take exceptional offense to religious arrogance because : they don't want to be wrong. if i find someone arrogant, i typically : don't have anything to do with them. for me, i've often found it hard to tell the difference. often times, the most humble christian has come across to me as arrogant while the most proud "worm in the ground" false humility type person has been found to be most comfortable company. when i'm wrong and arrogant about my wrongness, i certainly don't feel like being confronted by my wrongness. were someone to confront me verbally with my wrongness, i'd be likely to snap at them and examine them head to toe for all their faults and charge them with hypocricy for what they said to me. at the root, my desire would be to make them shut up so that i can go about living my life arrogantly as i wish. however, were someone to confront me silently by their example, earn my respect, and perhaps mention it to me in humility in private, i'd feel broken down and challenged to seek god for help in changing from the error of my ways. the hard part is getting to the point to where i can be humble before anyone regardless of their humility or pride--regardless of their hypocricy or sincerity--regardless of whether onlookers will frown down upon me or not. it isn't easy to take this pain in love with thankfulness for the opportunity to improve in one's ability to serve god. it's easier to cast aside any hope of reaching true humility and merely hide behind slandering god's creation in our lives instead. : but we should examine ourselves [i hope i typed this back in right] : and why we react to certain situations with such emotions. for instance, : many of us feel "justified" to be insulted by an arrogant person. as if : we needed a reason to feel insulted. but after being insulted over and : over again by the words of others, you'd think we'd either toughen up : or decide not to be insulted, or ignore the insult. just because you : can justify feelings of anger or insult or outrage, that doesn't make that : reaction the appropriate one. it is in this light of self-examination : that we can change our emotional reactions. sometimes it helps when we can understand and feel the difference between what is a true statement of our character and what is a false and slanderous statement of our character. the devil is the accuser of the bretheren. he would love us to feel hopelessly guilty where we are innocent and feel arrogant and self-righteous where we are indeed wrong. the devil's aim is to get us into as much misery as he can. just think of the devil as a cruel and merci- less criminal who torments a parent by burning his or her children with hot irons. the way the devil gets under the father's skin is by hurting those that the father loves so much. "i deplore the horrible crime of child murder... we want prevention, not merely punishment. we must reach the root of the evil... it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed... no mater what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed... but oh! thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime." - susan b. anthony, the revolution july 8, 1869 
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 but you will receive power when the holy spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in jerusalem, and in all judea and samaria, and to the ends of the earth." acts 1:8 
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 if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn't the bible ever say so. it never comes right and says "only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised." this is not a very sound argument for baptising babies. it assumes that if the bible doesn't say specifically that you don't need to do something, then that must mean that you do need to do it. i know there's a specific term for this form of logic, but it escapes me right now. however, if it were sound, then you should be able to apply it this way; if the bible doesn't specifically say that something is wrong, then it must be ok, which, coincidentally, leads perfectly into a question i've often pondered. this is no less logical than the assumption that if something is _not_ in the bible, then it _must not_ be done. but i don't really think that's what he's saying anyway. see below. if slavery is immoral (which i believe it is, can i assume that everyone else in this group does too?), why doesn't jesus or any of the apostles speak out against it? owning slaves was common practice back then. paul speaks about everything else that is immoral. he apparently thought it was important enough to talk about things like not being a drunkard. why doesn't anyone mention slavery? if god's morals are eternal and don't change like the morals of society, then it must have been just as immoral then as it is today. what about the letter to philemon? in it paul at least hints that a certain slave be released. also, slavery in those times was not the same as the type of slavery we had in the u.s. i think a better comparison would be to indentured servitude. i don't really want to get into a discussion on slavery. anyway, although it does demonstrate your point, i don't think it is relevent, because the original poster did not say that absence of specific condemenation proves something is not back to the original poster's assertion. he is not in fact making the logical error of which you accuse him. he stated the fact that the bible does not say that babies cannot be baptized. also, we know that the bible says that _everyone_ must be baptized to enter heaven. _everyone_ includes infants, unless there is other scripture to the contrary, i.e. an exception. since there is no exception listed in the bible, we must assume (to be on the safe side) that the bible means what it says, that _everyone_ must be baptized to enter heaven. and so we baptize infants. to summarize, you accused the original poster of saying if something is not forbidden by the bible, then that proves it is ok; i.e. if something cannot be disproven, it is true. he rather seemed to be asserting that since the bible does not forbid, _you cannot prove_, using the bible, that it is _not_ ok. there is a difference between proving whether or not something can be proven or disproven (there are theories on provability in the field of logic, by the way) and actually proving or disproving it. the other logical error we must avoid falling into is the converse: that if something cannot be proven, then it is false. this seems to be the error of many _sola scriptura_ believers. i think the only thing that can be proven here is that one cannot use scripture alone to prove something either way about infant baptism, although the evidence seems to me to favor it. steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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 my first and most important point is that regardless of how your recovery happened, i'm glad it did! on 10-may-93 in re: how i got saved... i found it ore than coincidental that less than 2 weeks after i put my faith where my mouth was, one more in the long line of doctors and not even an orthopeodic specialist, diagnosed my problems with no difficulty, set me on the path to an effective cure, and i was walking and running again without the pain that had stopped me from that for 4 years. the diagnosis was something he felt the other doctors must have "overlooked" because it was perfectly obvious from my test results. now! the point that i'll try to make is that coincidences like this occur with a very high frequency. how many of us have been thinking of someone and had that person call? much of the whole psychic phenomenon is easily explicable by this - one forgets the misses. consider your astrological forcast in the newspaper. how many times have you said "that's me" vs "that's not me"? you'll remember the hits, but the misses will be much more on 10-may-93 in re: how i got saved... maybe this doesn't hit you as miraculous. but to me it really is. imagine an active 17 year old being told she may not be able to walk mcuh longer...and is now a happy 18 year old who can dance and run knowing that the problem was there all along and was "revealed" just after she did what she knew was right. as the song says... and what if, instead if being healed, your affliction got much worse and you ended up paralyzed? would you have attributed that to god as well? or would that have been the work of satan? if you believe that would have been so, why only good from god, and only evil from satan? couldn't the agony have come from god? think about what he did to poor job! david hunt - graduate slave | my mind is my own. | towards both a mechanical engineering | so are my ideas & opinions. | palestinian and carnegie mellon university | <<<use golden rule v2.0>>> | jewish homeland! ====t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d=========t=h=e=r=e===i=s===n=o===g=o=d===== email: bluelobster+@cmu.edu working towards my "piled higher and deeper" the gostak distims the doches! 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21551">
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 i believe one could take a view like this even while accepting the views paul expressed in rom 1. one may believe that homosexuality is not what god intended, that it occured as a result of sin, but still conclude that at times we have to live with it. note that in the creation story work enters human life as a result of sin. this doesn't mean that christians can stop working when we are saved. please note that god commanded adam to work before the fall: "the lord god took the man and put him in the garden of eden to work it and take care of it." (gen 2:15, niv). work was god's design from the beginning. [i'll clarify the wording. there was obviously a rather different kind of labor imposed after the fall, but the statement as it stands is misleading. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21553">
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 paul repeatedly talks about the "thorn" in his side, some think it refers to lust, others pride, but who knows. whatever the thorn was, apparently it was not "compatible" with christianity, yet does that make his epistles any less? there is no reason to believe that paul's thorn in the flesh was a sin in his life. that makes little sense in the light of paul' writings taken in totality. he writes of how he presses for the mark, and keeps his body submitted. no doubt paul had to struggle with the flesh just like every christian. paul does associate his thorn with a satanic messenger, and with physical infirmities and tribulation, but not with a sin in his life. link hudson. 
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 hello, brycen ?! i'm a norwegian journalist student - and also a christian. thanks for your testimony! but i want to ask you one question: what do you think of heavy metal music after you became a christian? you know there are christian bands like barren cross, whitecross, bloodgood and stryper, that play that kind of music. i like some of it, i feel like it sometimes. of course i listen to the lyrics too. i don't listen to any christian band, but it's better than listening to secular music anyway. hope you're still going strong - with christ!! ann kristin froeystad, college of nordland, norway. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21557">
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 as st. augustine said, "i did not invent original sin, which the catholic faith holds from ancient time; but you, who deny it, without a doubt are a follower of a new heresy." (de nuptiis, lib. 11.c.12)] why is it fair to punish you, me and the rest of humanity because of what adam and eve did? suppose your parents committed some crime before you were born and one day the cops come to your door and throw you in jail for it. would you really think that is fair? i know i wouldn't. you may not think that it is fair, but how many sins do you know of that affect only the sinner? is it fair for us even to be able to get into heaven? do we have a _right_ to heaven, even if we were to lead sinless lives? anyway, your argument seems to be saying, "if _i_ were god, i certainly wouldn't do things that way; therefore, god doesn't do things that way." isaiah 55:8-9: "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the lord. for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." original sin is biblical: romans 5:12-14: "wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. nevertheless death reigned from adam to moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." 1 corinthians 15:22: "for as in adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive." steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21559">
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 whitsebd@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (bryan whitsell) sent in a list of verses which he felt condemn homosexuality. mls@panix.com (michael siemon) wrote in response that some of these verses "are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations" and that others "simply do not address the issues." i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues, however, a couple of them seem as though they do not require "incredibly perverse interpretations" in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality. "... do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of god. and such were some of you..." i cor. 6:9-11. would someone care to comment on the fact that the above seems to say fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of god? how does this apply to homosexuals? i understand "fornication" to be sex outside of marriage. is this an accurate definition? is there any such thing as same-sex marriage in the bible? my understanding has always been that the new testament blesses sexual intercourse only between a husband and his wife. i am, however, willing to listen to scriptural evidence to the contrary. [remainder of my post deleted] the moderator then made some comments i would like to address: [there's some ambiguity about the meaning of the words in the passage you quote. both liberal and conservative sources seem to agree that "homosexual" is not the general term for homosexuals, but is likely to have a meaning like homosexual prostitute. that doesn't meant that i think all the biblical evidence vanishes, but the nature of the evidence is such that you can't just quote one verse and solve things. if you are referring to the terms "effeminate" and "homosexuals" in the above passage, i agree that the accuracy of the translation has been challenged. however, i was simply commenting on the charge that it is an "incredibly perverse" interpretation to read this as a condemnation of homosexuality. such a charge seems to imply that no reasonable person would ever conclude from the verse that paul intended to condemn homosexuality; however, i think i can see how a reasonable person might very well take this view of the verse. therefore i do not believe it is "incredibly perverse" to read it in this way. i think your argument from fornication is circular. why is homosexuality wrong? because it's fornication. why is it fornication? because they're not married. why aren't they married? because the church refuses to do a marriage ceremony. why does the church refuse to do a marriage ceremony? because homosexuality is wrong. in order to break the circle there's got to be some other reason to think homosexuality is wrong. --clh] actually, i wasn't thinking of the church at all. after all, a couple doesn't have to be married by a minister. a secular justice of the peace could do the job, and the two people would be married. my point was that it is easy to find a biblical basis for heterosexual marriage, but where in the bible would one get a christian marriage between two people of the same sex? and if you do see a biblical basis for same-sex marriages, how willing would gay christians be to "save themselves" for such a marriage and to never have sexual intercourse with anyone outside of that marriage relationship? please note that i am not trying to imply that gay christians would not be willing to be so monogamous, i am genuinely interested in hearing opinions on the subject. i have heard comments from gays in the past that lead me to believe they regard promiscuity as one of the main points of being homosexual, yet i tend to doubt that gays who want to be christian would advocate such a position. so what is the gay view? [yes, i agree that a reasonable person might conclude that paul is condemning homosexuality. i was responding to certain details of your posting. that doesn't mean i agree with michael in all respects. --clh] 
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 hmmm...in the old testament story about the tower of babel, we see how god punished by giving us different language. can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all, that they have the same one amongst other angels? after all, they were not punished in any manner. maybe before babel,everyone including angels spoke the same language,so at babel, god punished us by giving us languages different from the original one. so if that's the case,then angels now would be speaking in the tongue mankind spoke before babel. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21562">
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 : |>you might visit some congregations of christians, who happen to be homosexuals, : |>that are spirit-filled believers, not mcc'rs; before you go lumping us all : |>together with troy perry. : gee, i think there are some real criminals (robbers, muderers, drug : addicts) who appear to be fun loving caring people too. so what's : your point? is it ok. just because the people are nice? the point is not about being "nice." "nice" is not a christian virtue. the point is that the gifts and fruits of the spirit (by their fruits you shall know them- mt 7:20) are manifested by and among prayerful, spirit-filled gay christians. it was the manifestation of the spirit among the gentiles that convinced peter (acts 10) that his prejudice against them (based on scripture, i might add) was not in accordance with god's intentions. : i think the old saying " hate the sin and not the sinner" is : appropriate here. many who belive homosexuality is wrong probably : don't hate the people. i don't. i don't hate my kids when they do : wrong either. but i tell them what is right, and if they lie or don't : admit they are wrong, or just don't make an effort to improve or : repent, they get punished. i think this is quite appropriate. you : may want to be careful about how you think satan is working here. : maybe he is trying to destroy our sense of right and wrong through : feel goodism. maybe he is trying to convince you that you know more : than god. kind of like the adam and eve story. read it and compare : it to today's mentality. you may be suprised. of course the whole issue is one of discernment. it may be that satan is trying to convince us that we know more than god. or it may be that god is trying (as god did with peter) to teach us something we don't know- that "god shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (acts 10:34-35). revdak@netcom.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21566">
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 what we call today the "old testament" was being written up to approx- imately 168 bce, according to most modern scholars. aside from the book of daniel, the whole ot predates alexander (the great). these books were written (predominantly) in hebrew. there were also other books being written at about this time and later by greek-speaking, or "hellenistic", jews. these books are those which are reckoned by many denominations as "apocrypha". before the closing of the writings, the third part of what is today called the canon, all of the books were in use by jews of the day. however, there were those who reckoned (based on zech. 13) that prophecy had ceased. this faction maintained that there were no true prophets in their day. they also maintained that literature of a prophetic character could not be genuine teachings from god. by the time of c.65 ce, another faction had entered the mess. christians had come in claiming that their writings were also suitable to be read in synagogues and used for worship. therefore, the palestinian jewish leaders got together and stated that the books written from the time of ben sira (sirach) onward were not sacred writings. they justified this from zech. 13. in particular, they said, the writings of the christians (called heretics) were not inspired. at about 90 ce, they codified things further by closing the canon in somewhat of an official sense at the council of jamnia. a few books (ecclesi- astes, song of songs, esther) made it in after that date, but these were those which had been written prior to the official cut off point (the time of ben sira) for inclusion that they had established in order to keep out the christian and hellenistic writings. jerome excluded the 'apocrypha' because they were not in use by jews of his day and because they were (except for sirach) not found in hebrew in his time. his criterion for separating them from the other pre-christian writings was not based on 'inspiration'. there is plenty more to say, but i do not have time. the passage you quote concerns the book (rev.) in which it is found. frank d. 
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 instead, i'm still faced with the implication that atheism is some kind of aberration and that only "broken" people are atheist. again, as the original poster of the article, i apologize if it implied that atheism = brokenness. such was not my intent and i apologize for any hurt feelings in the process. filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals - surgery fil.sapienza@med.umich.edu 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21572">
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 for those who pray in tongues, when is it appropriate for you to pray/speak in tongues and why? i just would like to gain more knowledge about this subject. ______ __ ___ ___ o __ ___ | western kentucky | / /__) /__ /__ / ) / /__) /__ | university | / / \ (___ (___ (__/__/ / / \ (___ | easteee@wkuvx1.bitnet | 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21573">
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 being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity, integrity, more light presbyterian churches, affirmation, mcc churches, etc. meet some gay christians, find out who they are, pray with them, discuss scripture with them, and only *then* form your opinion. i would absolutly love to have the time and energy to do so. the problem is to be totally fair i would have to go throught this type of search on every issue i belive in. i don't have the time, resources, or ability to do what you ask. maybe you should pray that god gives me the opportunity instead of simply discrediting me because i have not been able to talk to every gay christian. in christ's love, 
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 seeing as how _the_two_babylons_ has been brought up again, it is time for me to respond , once again, and say that this book is junk. it is nothing more that an anti-catholic tract of the sort published ever since the there were protestants. its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious. c. wingate + "the peace of god, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + yet, brothers, pray for but one thing: tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of god." 
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 |> it seems that during the middle ages, it was customary for pastors to |> explain the trinity to their parishoners by analogy to water. |> water is water, but can exist in three forms--liquid, ice and vapor. |> thus it is possible for one essence to exist in three forms. this sounds to me like a sort of generic modalism (in the the three phases of water are but different modes of behavior of the same physical stuff). it certainly does not seem to me to describe the orthodox position. [of course, i suppose that the medieval view of water may have been different, but now we know that the phases of water are just different *behaviors* of the same physical stuff - different modes, not different identities - but perhaps the medieval people did not know that]. |> and recently, the pastor of my church drew an analogy, which i |> also found useful--a woman is often percieved by others in three |> ways, depending on their relationship to her--a mother, a wife and |> an employee in a business. this is clearly modalistic monarchianism, since these three aspects depend solely on point of view, and are do not really represent actual variety within the person. do you now begin to see why sarima@teradata.com (formerly tdatirv!sarima) stanley.friesen@elsegundoca.ncr.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21585">
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 homosexual christians have indeed "checked out" these verses. some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations. others simply do not address the issues. i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues, there are exactly zero verses that "clearly" address the issues. however, a couple of them seem as though they do not require "incredibly perverse interpretations" in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality. the kind of interpretation i see as "incredibly perverse" is that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket equation of homosexual behavior and rape. since christians citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have at least read the story, it amounts to slander -- a charge that homosexuality == rape -- to use that against us. "... do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of god. and such were some of you..." i cor. 6:9-11. the moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of _porneia_ in this. i think we can all agree (with paul) that there are some kinds of activity that could be named by "fornication" or "theft" or "coveting" or "reviling" or "drunkenness" which would well deserve condemnation. we may or may not agree to the bounds of those categories, however; and the very fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at all "clear" but that paul -- an excellent rhetorician -- had no interest in making them clear, leaving matters rather to our spirit-led decisions, with all the uncomfortable living-with-other-readings that has dominated christian discussion of all these areas. homosexual behavior is no different. i (and the other gay christians i know) are adamant in condemning rape -- heterosexual or homosexual -- and child molestation -- heterosexual or homosexual -- and even the possibly "harmless" but obsessive kinds of sex -- heterosexual or homosexual -- that would stand condemned by paul in the very continuation of the chapter you cite [may i mildly suggest that what *paul* does in his letter that you want to use is perhaps a good guide to his meaning?] "'i am free to do anything,' you say. yes, but not everything is for my good. no doubt i am free to do anything, but i for one will not let anything make free with me." [1 cor. 6:12] which is a restatement that we must have no other "god" before god. a commandment neither i nor any other gay christian wishes to break. some people are indeed involved in obsessively driven modes of sexual behavior. it is just as wrong (though slightly less incendiary, so it's a secondary argument from the 'phobic contingent) to equate homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the rape of god's messengers. i won't deal with the exegesis of leviticus, except very tangentially. fundamentally, you are exhibiting the same circularity here as in your assumption that you know what _porneia_ means. there are plenty of laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in leviticus, most of which christians ignore completely. they never even bother to examine them. they just *assume* that they know which ones are "moral" and which ones are "ritual." well, i have news for you. any anthropology course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs. unlcean as categories in an awful lot of societies (we have them too, but buried pretty deep). and i cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of leviticus from the "ritual law" which no christian i know feels applies to us. i'm dead serious here. when people start going on (as they do in this matter) about how "repulsive" and "unnatural" our acts are -- and what do they know about it, huh? -- it is a solid clue to the same sort of arbitrary cultural inculcations as the american prejudice against eating insects. on what basis, other than assuming your conclusion, can you say that the law against male-male intercourse in leviticus is not a part of the ritual law? for those christians who *do* think that *some* parts of leviticus can be "law" for christians (while others are not even to be thought about) it is incumbent on you *in every case, handled on its own merits* to determine why you "pick" one and ignore another. i frankly think the whole effort misguided. reread paul: "no doubt i am free to do anything." but christians have a criterion to use for making our judgments on this, the great commandment of love for god and neighbor. if you cannot go through leviticus and decide each "command" there on that basis, then your own arbitrary selection from it is simply idiosyncracy. in this context, it is remarkably offensive to say: i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse. well, la-ti-da. so what? this is almost as slimey an argument as the one that homosexuality == rape. i know of no one who argues seriously (though one can always find jokers) in "defense" of bestiality. it is absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay christians *do* raise (which concern sexual activity within committed, consensual human adult realtionships), so that your bringing it up is no more relevant than the laws of kashrut. if you cannot address the actual issues, you are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the world. if *you* want to address bestiality, that is your business, not mine. and attempting to torpedo a serious issue by using what is in our culture a ridiculous joke shows that you have no interest in hearing us as human beings. you want to dismiss us, and use the sleaziest means you can think of to do so. jesus and paul both expound, very explictly and in considerable length, the central linch-pin of christian moral thought: we are required to love one another, and all else depends on that. gay and lesbian christ- ians challenge you to address the issue on those terms -- and all we get in return are cheap debate tricks attempting to side-track the issues. christians, no doubt very sincere ones, keep showing up here and in every corner of usenet and the world, and all they ever do is spout these same old verses (which they obviously have never thought about, maybe never even read), in total ignorance of the issues raised, slandering us with the vilest charges of child abuse or whatever their perfervid minds can manage to conjure up, tossing out red herrings with (they suppose) great emotional force to cause readers to dismiss our witness without even taking the trouble to find out what it is. such behavior should shame anyone who claims to have seen truth in christ. why, for god's precious sake, do you people quote irrelevant verses to condemn people you don't know and won't even take the trouble to listen to before you start your condemnations? is that loving your neighbor? god forbid! is that how you obey the repeated commands to not judge or condemn others? christ and paul spend orders of magnitude more time in insisting on this than the half-dozen obscure words in paul that you are so bloody ready to take as license to do what god tells you not to do. why, for god's sake? "for god did not send the son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned for refusing to believe in the name of god's only son. now the judgment is this: the light has come into the world, but men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds were evil. for everyone who practices wickedness hates the light, and does not come near the light for fear his deeds will be exposed. but he who acts in truth comes into the light, so that it may be sh0own that his deeds are done in god." john 3:17-21 for long ages, we (many of us) have been confused by evil counsel from evil men and told that if we came to the light we would be shamed and rejected. some of us despaired and took to courses that probably *do* show a sinful shunning of god's light. blessed are those whose spirits have been crushed by the self-righteous; they shall be justified. however, we have seen the truth, and the truth is the light of humanity; and we now know that it is not we who fear the light, but our enemies who fear the light of our witness and will do everything they can to shadow it with the darkness of false witness against us. michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 some years ago -- possibly as many as five -- there was a discussion on numerology. (that's where you assign numeric values to letters and then add up the letters in words, in an effort to prove something or another. i can never make any sense of how it's supposed to work or what it's supposed to prove.) somebody posted a long article about numerology in the bible, saying things like "this proves the intricate planning of the scriptures, else these patterns would not appear". then there was a brilliant followup, which was about numerology in all the other numerology posts. stuff like "the word `numerology' adds up to 28, and the word appears 28 times in the posting! such elegant planning! further, the word `truth' also adds up to 28; the writer is using these numerological clues to show us that we reach truth via numerology!" (these examples are made up by me just as examples.) i really liked that reply, because it did such an excellent job of showing that these patterns can be found in just about anything. however, i did not save a copy of it. i do not remember the author. i'm only 90% sure that it was posted to this newsgroup. but, on the off chance that somebody remembers it and saved it, or that the author is reading here, i wanted to know if anyone could send me a copy. (i think it should be made into an faq, if we can find it.) darren f provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu "i use not only all the brains i have, but all those i can borrow as well." -- woodrow wilson 
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 i have some articles available on the church and gay people, from a pro-gay viewpoint, which might interest some of the people participating in this thread. please email me if you would like to have me send them to you (warning, about 70k worth of material. make sure you have mailbox and/or disk space available.) there are no short answers to the questions we've been seeing here ("how do you explain these verses?", "how do you justify your actions?") if you've been asking and you really want an idea of the other people's thinking, i encourage you to do some serious reading. *dr. ann b. carlson (a.b.carlson@larc.nasa.gov) * o . *ms 366 * o _///_ // *nasa langley research center * <`)= _<< *hampton, va 23681-0001 * \\\ \\ 
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 i'd like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot: what morals/ethics apply to dreams and out-of-body incidents? in normal dreams, you can't control anything, so obviously you aren't morally responsible for your actions. but if you can contrive to control the action in dreams or do an oobe, it seems like a morality applies. well i am one of those (apparently) odd people who can sometimes control their dreams. for example, i might decide before going to sleep that i want to repeat a favourite dream, or dream about a specific place. or if i am having an unpleasant dream, i can often (not always) redirect events to something more pleasant. i guess i think that the same standards apply in these "directed" dreams as apply in waking fantasies or real life (ref jesus teaching about looking at a woman lustfully being the same a committing adultary). when my normal dreams display themes that i would not conciously chose to dream about, i take that as a sign that all is not well with my "inner life" - maybe i have underlying tenstions/fears that need to be resolved, or maybe its straightforward sin. in either case, the cause needs to be resolved. in fact, either case is pretty rare. i don't often remember dreams that i don't chose to have. when i do, they almost always tell me something important. i also almost never dream in pictures, and especially not in colour (in fact i've had precisely one full colour picture dream that i can remember, and it was definately spiritually important) i tend to dream in sound, with the odd blurred image, in black and interesting topic - i'll be fascinated to read other responses. ps. just to make it clear, i don't do ( and have never tried ) oobes. i tend to think they are off limits for christians. 
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 "raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents, mason was beaten as a child. he once was were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with "raised in oakland by mexican parents, mason was beaten...", my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and although i'm neither fundamentalist nor evangelical, i have often noticed this trend in the media. in short, it is permissable to bash fundamentalists. no need to substitue a nationality such as "mexican..." try simply to substitute a different religion "...raised by muslim parents," or "...raised by jewish parents..." the paper simply would not do this. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21599">
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 really? you may be right, but i'd like proof. as far as i know (and "we however, shall be innocent of this sin, and will pray with earnest entreaty and supplication that the creator of all may keep unharmed the numbers of his elect." -st. clement, bishop of rome, letter to the corinthians, 59.2, (c. 90 ad) "ignatius also called theophorus, to the church at ephesus in asia, which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of god the father, predestined from all eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen in true suffering by the will of the father in jesus christ our god..." -st. ignatius, bishop of antioch, letter to the ephesians, address, (c 110 ad) "we say therefore, that in substance, in concept, in orgin and in eminece, the ancient and catholic church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants .... those already chosen, those predestined by god who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just." -st. clement, patriarch and archbishop of alexandria, miscellanies, 7.17.107.3, (c 205 ad) of course the doctrine was explained more fully later on by sts. augustine, aquinas, etc., but the seeds were ther from the beginning. this is really confusing to me, especially since i still believe that christ jesus died for all of us. preknowledge of obstinacy seems like an awfully convoluted way to account for a couple of verses. but i think you are reading it wrong. i say those who are not saved are not saved on account of their own sins. it is not because god did not give them sufficient grace, for he does do so, in his desire that all men might be saved. however, as only some are saved - and those who are saved are saved by the grace of god, "not by works, lest any man should boast" - the others are damned because of their obstinacy in refusing to heed the call of god. they are damned by their own free will and chosing, a choice forseen by god in his causing them to be not predestined, but reprobated instead. so god uses grace like margarine: he only spreads it where it's needed and not where it isn't? and so there are the saved and the not-saved, and nothing in between. hmmmm. certainly god does not distribute grace evenly. if he did, no one could have their heart hardened (or rather, harden their heart, thus causing god to withdraw his grace). but, you are correct - the world is divided into those who god knows to be saved, and those god knows to be on the road to perdition. the key is that god knows it and we do not. thus, no one can boast in complete assurance that they are one of the elect and predestined. but no one who is a christian in good standin should doubt their salvation either (that shows a lack of trust in god). be punished after we die. you're saying what we get after we die has a direct bearing on how we live now? strange.... you must admit it is possible. anyway, why would you want something in the hear and know, when you can recieve 100 fold in heaven? better to lay up your treasure in heaven is what jesus said. this is not to condemn the rich, but simply to point out that those who are rich are frequently very evil or immoral, so god must give them their blessing know, as they have chosen. remeber, jesus promised tribulation in this world, and hatred of others because we are christians. he did not promise heaven on earth. he promised heaven. so sin is either punished now or later -- and not both? what if it's sort of half-punished? are there any grey areas in this doctrine? not really. unless you do penance here on earth, you will have to do it in purgatory, as paul pointed out (1 corinthians 3.15). those with poorer works, though still done with good intentions, will only be saved through fire (the damned will of course go into fire immeadiately, for whatever good they did was not for god but for self (dead works)). of course, the church gives indulgences, has confession, and annointing of the sick to remove sin and the the vestiges of sin, so there is really little excuse for ending up in purgatory - it is a last hope for the somewhat lazy and careless as i said above in referring to paul. and no comments were taken as flames. you are one of the more polite people i have talked to over the net. andy byler ps. as for balkan military adventures, the old saw about that area is that it produces more history then can be consumed locally: alexander the great, wwi the ottoman empire, the byzantine empire (by which i refer to stirfe and foreign adventures of them in general), the balkans wars of 1913, the latin-greek wars of the 1200's, etc. not a good place to hop into. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21601">
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 [referring to mary] she was immaculately conceived, and so never subject to original sin, but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life. this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god. i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin. was mary fully human? if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin, and free of committing sin their whole life, then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus? why can't god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless, without the need for repentance and salvation and all that? i don't particularly object to the idea of the assumption, or the perpetual virginity (both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ), and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus, but this concept of mary's sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it. seanna watson bell-northern research, | pray that at the end of living, (seanna@bnr.ca) ottawa, ontario, canada | of philosophies and creeds, | god will find his people busy opinion, what opinions? oh *these* opinions. | planting trees and sowing seeds. no, they're not bnr's, they're mine. | i knew i'd left them somewhere. | --fred kaan 
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 i also don't see the _necessity_ of saying the holy parents were some- how sanctified beyond normal humanity: it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god's grace in being incarnated through an or- dinary human being. when elizabeth greeted mary, elizabeth said something to the effect that mary, out of all women, was blessed. if so, it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21604">
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 david hammerslag asked: how do you (mormons) reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ's statement that in the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage (luke, chapt. 20)? several explanations for this seeming contradiction have been proposed, but most lds scholars whose opinions i have studied take more or less one of the following three positions: (1) jesus was talking to a group of people (sadducees) who were trying to trip him up with what they felt was a silly hypothetical situa- tion that ridiculed the concept of a resurrection (something they didn't believe in). these people -- and those associated with them ("now there were with us seven brethren", matt. 22:25) -- would not be receptive to such higher blessings as eternal marriage. hence, the people in the story would likely not be married in the eterni- ties; but that doesn't mean other, more faithful people could not have this blessing. (2) jesus was making a distinction between the state or condition of =being= married, and the process of =becoming= married. the latter activity (marrying and giving in marriage) will not take place in the eternities, because all eternal marriages will be taken care of before then. (3) the account as we have it (in all three of the synoptic gospels) is missing something that would make its real meaning clearer. note that we (lds) do not believe in biblical inerrancy, so we do not in general feel obliged to reconcile each and every bible text with modern revelation through joseph smith and other latter-day proph- ets. nor are we particularly upset that the account in question was not significantly revised in the "joseph smith translation" or "inspired version" of the bible, since we do not believe this work was completed or that failure to revise a passage in the jst con- stitutes divine approval of that passage as it stands in the kjv. rich wales <richw@mks.com> // mortice kern systems inc. (mks) 35 king st. n. // waterloo, ontario, canada n2j 2w9 // +1 (519) 884-2251 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21605">
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 on these counts, the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god. to quote unger's bible dictionary on the apocrapha: 1. they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and so do other parts of the bible when taken literally - i.e. the psalms saying the earth does not move, or the implication the earth is flat with four corners, etc. the bible was written to teach salvation, not history or science. 2. they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture. what ones? paryers for the dead or the intercession of saints? (which are taught in 2 maccabees, sirach, and tobit) 3. they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture. by your own subjective judgement. this falling short is your judgement, and you are not infallible - rather the church of jesus christ is (see 1 timothy 3.15). 4. they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling. more subjective feelings. this is not a proof of anything more than one persons feelings. but the problem with this argument lies in the assumption that the hebrew canon included the apocrapha in the first place, and it wasn't until the sixteenth century that luther and co. threw them out. the jewish council you mentioned previously didn't accept them, so the reformation protestants had good historical precedence for their actions. jerome only translated the apocrapha under protest, and it was literally 'over his dead body' that it was included in the catholic canon. as i have written time and again, the hebrew canon was fixed in jamnia, palestine, in 90 ad. 60 years after the foundation of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. furthermore, the opinons of jerome do not count. he was neither the church, or the pope, or an ecumenical council, or a council in general, or an insturment of the magisterium of the church. he was a private individual, learned admittedly, but subject to erro of opinion. and in exlcuding the deuterocanon, he erred, as pope damsus, and the council of carthage, and the tradition of the fathers, clearly shows, as i pointed out in my previous post. how do you then view the words: "i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy, god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (rev 22.18-9) i suggest you take heed of the last part of the statement, if you want to take it in the sense you are taking it, that taking away from the book will cause you to lose heaven. it is also noteworthy to consider jesus' attitude. he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon (john 10.31-6), and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law, prophets and psalms which referred to him - the ot division of scripture (luke 24.44), as well as in luke 11.51 taking genesis to chronicles (the jewish order - we would say genesis to malachi) as scripture. the order of the canon is unimportant, it is the content that matters. none of jesus' statments exlcude the deuterocanon, which were interspersed throughout the canon. and remeber, there are some completely undisputed books, ezra, nehemiah, esther, ecclesiatses, song of songs, job, etc. that are not quoted in the new testament, which is not taken as prejudicial to their being inspired. andy byler 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21607">
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 hello all, i have a question about satan. i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god's authority. the problem is, i cannot find this in the bible. is it in the bible? if not, where did it hi eddie, many people believe the battle described in rev 12:7-12 describes the casting out of satan from heaven and his fall to the shalom, len howard 
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 i don't necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it, since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy. early in church history, the catechumens were dismissed prior to the celebration of the eucharist. it was secret, giving rise to the rumors that christians were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims. the actions were considered too holy to be observed by non-christians, as well as potentially dangerous for the individual christian who might be identified. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) lawrence overacker shell oil company, information center houston, tx (713) 245-2965 llo@shell.com 
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 |> what is the basis of the idea of hell being a place of eternal |> suffering? if it is biblical, please reference. |> here's my train of thought: if god is using the earth to manufacture |> heavenly beings, then it is logical that there would be a certain |> yield, and a certain amount of waste. the yield goes to heaven, and |> the waste is burned (destroyed) in hell. why is it necessary to |> punish the waste, rather than just destroy it? luke 16 talks about the rich man and lazarus. matthew 25 talks about the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. revelations 20 and 21 reference this fire as the place where unbelievers are thrown. matthew 18 talks about being thrown into the eternal fire and the fire of hell. it seems quite clear that there is this place where a fire burns forever. from the revelations passages it is clear that the devil and his angels will be tormented there forever. from the matthew 25 passage it doesn't seem abundantly clear whether the punishment of unbelievers is everlasting in the sense of final or in the sense of continual. from dale's question, i come away with the suggestion that hell, if it were short, might be an acceptable alternative to living forever with the source of life, peace and joy i.e. the unbeliever ceases to exist. whereas, if punishment goes on continually, then one should have a greater motivation to avoid it. it definately seems to me that hell is something we want to avoid regardless of its exact nature. there seem to be two main questions in dale's thought: what is god's main plan on earth? why is continual punishment a necessary part of hell as opposed to simply destroying completely those who refuse god? i believe that god's main plan is to have a genuine relationship with people. the nature of hell and the reasons for its nature seem a lot more difficult to ascertain. it does seem clear that hell is something to avoid. at a minimum, hell is the state one is in when one has nothing to do with god. in the bible, i am not aware of any discussion about the specifics of hell beyond the general of hot, unpleasant and torment. for instance, it is not discussed how (if at all) the rich man can continually stay in the fire and still feel discomfort or pain or whether there is some point at which the pain sensing ability is burned up. if you can forgive the graphicalness, if you throw a physical body into a fire, assuming the person starts out alive, at some fairly quick point, the nerves are destroyed and pain is no longer sensed. it is not stated what occurs when at the judgement, the unbelievers, (who are already physically dead) are cast into hell i.e. they no longer have a physical body so they can't feel physical pain. what could be sensed continually is that those in hell are to be forever without god. the lazarus/rich man parable is told with the idea of having the listener think in physical terms in order to get the point that some people won't listen to god even after he rises from the dead. the point of the parable is to reach the hard-hearted here who are not listening to the fact of the resurrection nor the gospel about jesus christ. it seems reasonable to also draw from the parable that hell is not even remotely pleasant. peter white disclaimer: none of what is written necessarily reflects a view of my company. phil i want to know christ and the power of his 3:10 resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in niv his sufferings, becoming like him in his death 
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 ----- begin included message ----- the following teaching is brought to you on behalf of malcolm smith ministries, a ministry dedicated to leading believers everywhere into a knowledge of the love of god. if you would like more info on the ministry, and/or would like to comment on whether you found this teaching beneficial, e-mail to randy hunt at rlhunt@hou.amoco.com. love in the morning (psalm 90:14) by malcolm smith moses wrote this prayer at a weary time in the history of israel. a generation before the time of its writing, the people of israel had stood at kadesh, gateway to canaan, and made the fateful choice to go their own way rather than god's way. they refused an adventure of faith in god which would have given them canaan, the homeland of promise. god honored their decision, and said they would wander in the desert only a few miles from the land of promise until they were all buried in the sand. the young decision- makers of that fateful day were between twenty and thirty years old, and destined to be dead within forty years... bleached bones in the desert by the time they were seventy-- eighty, at the most. the lives of these wanderers had been unending sadness. moses described it as ending each year with a sigh (v. 9). the fact that they knew, give or take a few months, when they were going to die, underscored the meaninglessness of their existence. whatever heights of success they reached, they would be a heap of bleached bones within forty years. the only ones to live outside of that depression of hopeless disbelief were joshua and caleb, who had stood against the nation at kadesh and had god' s promise of one day entering the land. the forty-year period was finally drawing to an end. the new generation, those who were children at kadesh, were now grown and eager to take the inheritance their parents had refused to enjoy. in the light of this, moses prays...it is time for a new day to begin and the days of misery to be over. all these years, as moses had walked with these moaning and complaining people through the wilderness of their exile, he had carried a double burden. his was not only the sadness of living in less than what could have been; but he also knew why they had chosen as they had at kadesh. the problem was that they were ignorant of the character of their god. if asked. "who is your god?" they would have described him as the god who is power. when aaron had created their concept of god in an idol. he chose a calf. or young bull--a symbol of power, of virility. in their minds, god was the young bull who had impaled pharaoh on his horns and gored egypt's gods as he led israel to sinai. but when man worships a god of power, his miracles grow thin and even boring. after miracle food on the desert floor and water gushing miraculously from the solid rock through the desert wasteland, the god of almightiness becomes "ho-hum --what' s next on the miracle menu?" and a god of power can be as unpredictable as a young bull calf. he might be all they need, but then...who knows? if he has all power, he has a right to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. the only person these people had known who had absolute power was pharaoh, and men's lives had hung on the whim of his moods, which could change with the wind. they believed god could work his wonders on their behalf, but they did not know him and, so, could not trust him. israel had a god based on what he did, his acts; moses knew the heart of god, the motivation behind the acts. from the day of his encounter at the burning bush, moses had been fascinated by god. at sinai, he asked to be shown his glory...to know who he really was. he had seen what god had done; he wanted to know who god was. this request was granted, and moses was given a glimpse of god's glorious person. he had come to know the heart of god as compassion and lovingkindness (exodus 34:6,7). the word "lovingkindness" is not to be understood as a human kind of love. it speaks of the kind of relationship arising out of the making of a covenant. it can only be understood as the love that says, "i will never leave you nor forsake you." lovingkindness is as tenacious as a british bulldog; when the world walks out, this love digs in its heels and refuses to leave.and it is not human romantic love, based on feelings and rooted in emotions. it is a love of covenant commitment and, therefore, operates quite apart from feelings. god's love is not an emotion that wavers day by day; it is the total commitment of his being to seek our highest and best, and to bring us to our fullest potential as humans. god does not see something good and beautiful in us which arouses his feelings of love toward us...we do not woo him and cause him to fall in love with us! if that were the case, the first ugly, sinful thing we did would cause him to reject us. he is love, and he loves us because of who he is-- not because of who we are. he does not love what we do, but he is committed to us, pursuing us down every blind alley and bypath of foolishness. he will not let us go. his is a love that is not looking for what it can get out of us-- but a committed love that searches for opportunities to give to us. it is saying to the recipient, "for as long as we shall live, i am for you." the god who has revealed himself to man through scripture and, finally, in jesus--in his coming, and in his death and resurrection--is the god who is lovingkindness. thus he loves us and gives himself to us...he will never leave us nor forsake us. tragically, many believers have never seen him as love; they see him as power. no one will come to faith by just seeing miracles. miracles point to who he is, and that is when faith springs in the heart. israel did not see god as lovingkindness; they saw his acts of power. moses knew his ways, the kind of god he was, and the love that he had for these people. because of their total lack of understanding of his love, they could not trust him to be their strength in taking the land. faith is born out of knowing the love he has for us; it is the resting response to the one who gives himself to us. he is not the force, and to call him the almighty is to miss his heart. he is love who is the almighty and the infinite force. if man is to make force or raw power work for him, he must depend on knowing the forrnula and have faith in it. but the power that issues from love demands faith in the person of love himself. the forty years of meaningless wandering was a monument to a people who had never come to know the god of love. at this point, with the new generation and the possibility of enjoying all that god promised, moses prays verse 14. the language moses uses is reminiscent of a baby having slept secure in its mother's love, now waking to look up into the delight of her eyes. it is waking to the consciousness of being loved... watched over, cared for, protected, fed, and cleaned, day and night, by the mother. suppose we were to ask, "what has the baby done to deserve this?" or, "have arrangements been made for the child to repay the parents for this inconvenience?" our questions would be considered unnatural, even immoral. the child was conceived in love, anticipated and prepared for with love's excitement, a love that has been to the gates of death to bring it into being. the parents' love is unconditional, spontaneous...it has nothing to do with the looks of the child or its performance. so god is love. he loves us unconditionally, spontaneously. we were conceived in his imagination and fashioned after his image, to be brought to where we are at this moment by the blood of the lord jesus. it is slanderous, and immoral, to even ask what we must do to earn and deserve that love. the child discovers its personhood and identity through the eyes and touch, through the cuddles, of its parents' love. it is a scientific fact that a baby who is not touched and held will probably die or, if it survives, will have severe emotional problems. and a person who has been held and loved will still never know the true meaning of life without the embrace and knowledge of love from god. moses prays that the new generation will learn to wake every morning, resting with total confidence in the love of god. and will receive all his promises and blessings with joy and gladness. significantly, moses prays that they will be satisfied with his love. "satisfied." in the hebrew language. is a rich picture word describing being filled with an abundance of gourmet food. it is also used to describe the earth after the rain has soaked it and all the vegetation has received enough water. moses prays that they will awaken every morning to be drenched in the life-giving love of god. that sense of satisfaction is the lifelong quest of every man and woman. when we are satisfied in our deepest selves, many of our emotional--and even our physical--problems disappear. man seeks that sense of satisfaction which comes from feeling that he is fulfilled as a human being...his hours have meaning, which make sense out of the ordinary and mundane. apart from god, man seeks this satisfaction through intellectual pursuit, through the exciting of the emotions, and through the feeding of his body...he will even seek it in religious exercise. but man will always be dissatisfied until he is responding to the love of the living god. only in knowing god's love will the rest of life make sense. as the forty years drew to a close and the land of promise again became the inheritance to be taken, moses prayed this psalm. i find it fascinating that he should pray and ask god for a daily revelation of his love. considering the awe with which the people held moses. one would think he could have lectured them on the subject of lovingkindness and, by the knowledge they gained, they would live in it. but moses knew better. god is the only one who can make known to us his love. we won't find it in a religious lecture or a formula which we can learn and use to manipulate him. nor is it in a beautiful poem to titillate our emotions and give us god feelings. it is god, himself, the lover, who must open our eyes and satisfy us with his love. this prayer is man, in helplessness, asking god to make the love he is real in our hearts. moses' prayer was partially answered in the next generation and seen in the exploits of faith which worked by love in the book of judges. but it would not be answered in its fullest dimensions until the coming of the holy spirit, who pours out the love of god in our hearts (romans 5:5). in the history of the early church, we read of the holy spirit "falling upon" the believers. this is an ancient expression that, in modern english, means to give a bear hug. it is used in luke 15 to describe the father running to the prodigal and "falling on his neck and kissing him." the holy spirit is god hugging you in your deepest self and smothering you with divine kisses at the deepest level of your being. this is not a one-time experience to be filed in our spiritual resumes. moses prayed that morning by morning we would awaken to the realization that we are loved. the world, and much of our religious training, has taught us to perform in order to be accepted. we have spent far too long living in a state of doing in order to find satisfaction for ourselves...to find acceptance and love from others, and from god. we now come humbled to receive love we cannot earn...to be still and let him tell us we are loved: to let the holy spirit descend into us, pouring out the love of god. we come in stillness to think on and repeat his words of love to our minds. which have been jaded with the doctrine of "perform to be accepted." we begin to realize that he loves us as we are, and gives meaning and purpose to all of life. i challenge everyone reading this to begin each day, from the moment you open your eyes, by celebrating the god of love and praying this prayer. you may not feel anything, but something always happens. i was x-rayed the other day. i did not see or feel anything, but i noted that the technicians kept behind protective walls. they know you cannot be exposed to those rays without being affected. so it is as we consciously begin our day knowing that we are loved. such experiential knowledge will produce, according to moses, "joy and gladness all our days." joy is the result of a life that is functioning as god intended us to function when he made us. you might say that joy is the hum of an engine that is at peak performance. man' s highest performance is to rest in the love god has for him... the hum will be joy, and the result will be endless creativity arising from the sense of meaning he now has in life. stop wandering in the wilderness. be satisfied with his love and, in joy, day by day, receive all his promised blessings. ----- end included message ----- 
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 |> in the monday, may 10 morning edition of the san jose mercury news an |> article by sandra gonzales at the top of page 12a explained convicted |> killer david edwin mason's troubled childhood saying, |> "raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist |> christian parents, mason was beaten as a child. ... |> [other instances of child abuse deleted] |> were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with |> "raised in oakland by mexican parents, mason was beaten...", my face would |> be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and |> the mexican community as a whole. ... |> why is it that open biggotry like this is practiced and encouraged by the |> san jose mercury news when it is pointed at the christian community? perhaps because there is a connection here that is not there in the mexican variant you bring up. that is, many (not all) extreme fundamentalist christians use the excuse of teaching their children biblical morality to justify this sort of mistreatment. i do not see many mexicans using their mexican heritage as an excuse for abuse. it is indeed this judgemental, controlling legalism of many fundamentalist christians that has led me to reject that branch of our faith as not true to the gospel of christ, the gospel of love. i have seen this sort of thing too often, even amoung my own relatives, to believe there is no relationship. judgementalism often leads to overly strict, and thus abusive, discipline of children. [this is not restricted to just christian fundamentalism, it is found in many extreme sects of other legalistic religions]. |> can a good christian continue to purchase newspapers and buy advertising in |> this kind of a newspaper? this is really bad journalism. i, too, am a christian. but i do not condone the use of the bible to justify this sort of abuse. i believe that it is only by exposing the horrors of the misapplication of the biblical concept of discipline that such abuses can be stopped. just because someone is also a christian does not mean we must identify eith them. this sort of sin needs to be made public. sarima@teradata.com (formerly tdatirv!sarima) stanley.friesen@elsegundoca.ncr.com 
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 does anyone belong to or know any facts about the christian reformed church? [it's one of two major heirs to the dutch reformed tradition in the u.s. the other is the reformed church in america. the crc is more or less a spinoff from the rca. it was unclear to me from my reference exactly the differences between them are. --clh] 
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 aaron> colossians 2:11-12 "in him you were also circumcised, in the aaron> putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done aaron> by christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised aaron> with him through your faith in the power of god, who raised him aaron> from the dead." aaron> in baptism, we are raised to a new life in christ (romans 6:4) aaron> through a personal faith in the power of god. our parent's aaron> faith cannot do this. do infants have faith? let's look at aaron> what the bible has to say about it. yes, let do. try: "and if anyone causes one of these little ones *who believes in me* to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck." mark 9:42 "let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of god belongs to such as these. i tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of god like a little child will never enter it." the colossians passage does not make faith a requirement for baptism. it merely says that in baptism we are born again, regenerated, and resurrected through faith. in the case of an infant i would say that baptism works faith in the heart of the infant--through the power of the word. the colossians passage does make baptism a spiritual circumcision. circumcision was the means by which a male infant was made a part of god's covenant with israel. it was commanded to be performed on the eighth day. the early church understood this, and even debated whether baptism had to be performed on the eighth day, or if it could in fact be done earlier. aaron> romans 10:16-17 "but not all the israelites accepted the good aaron> news. for isaiah says, 'lord, who has believed our message?' aaron> consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the aaron> message is heard through the word of christ." aaron> so then we receive god's gift of faith to us as we hear the aaron> message of the gospel. and the gospel is surely preached at any infant's (or adult's) baptism. indeed, in a very real sense, the sacraments are the gospel made tangible. aaron> faith is a possible response to hearing aaron> god's word preached. kids are not yet spiritually, aaron> intellectually, or emotionally mature enough to respond to aaron> god's word. how do you know they are not yet mature enough to have faith? do you know this on the basis of god's word, or from your own faith is also described as a gift from god, ephesians 2:8,9. he gives faith to infants just as he gives it to adults, through the power of the gospel, romans 1:6. aaron> if you read all of ezekiel 18, you will see that god doesn't aaron> hold us guilty for anyone else's sins. so we can have no aaron> original guilt from adam. here you show that you just don't understand original sin-- you are arguing against a straw man. maybe you've been talking to catholics too much. i don't know. but original sin does not consist of god's imputation of adam's guilt to us. it consists of our inheritance of adam's sinful nature. it is actual sin. see for example, the augsburg confession, article ii, and the apology of the augsburg confession, article ii, and, for extra credit, john knox's `the scots confession', article iii. aaron> now then that we have a little more background as to why aaron> original sin is not biblical, let's look at some of the aaron> scriptures used to support it. aaron> romans 5:12 "therefore, just as sin entered the world through aaron> one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to aaron> all men, because all sinned--" ask yourself this question. "do infants ever die?" then ask yourself, "if infant baptism is not valid, then where was the christian church during all the centuries when almost all of the baptisms were performed on infants? were luther, melancthon, calvin, zwingli, hus, knox, andrae, and chemnitz christians? aaron> psalm 51:5 "surely i was sinful at birth, sinful from the time aaron> my mother conceived me." aaron> this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble aaron> ourselves before god in repentance for sinning. david himself aaron> was a man after god's own heart and wrote the psalm after aaron> committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband. aaron> all that david is saying here is that he can't remember a time aaron> when he wasn't sinful. he is humbling himself before god by aaron> confessing his sinfulness. his saying that he was sinful at aaron> birth is a hyperbole. the bible, being inspired by god, isn't aaron> limited to a literal interpetation, but also uses figures of aaron> speech as did jesus (john 16:25). for another example of aaron> hyperbole, see luke 14:26. who are you to say what is literal and what is not? is a literal interpretation manifestly absurd in psalm 51 by reason of direct contradiction with a clear passage from the word of god? you might also compare genesis 8:21, "the lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart, `never again will i curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood...." aaron> we see aaron> that he did grow and become wiser in luke 2:40 and 2:52. the aaron> implication is that jesus did wrong things as a child before he aaron> knew to choose right over wrong. you are a long way from proving this (rather monstrous) assertion. all you can say is that jesus grew in wisdom and in stature. a conclusion that he did wrong as a child is based on an extrapolation of reason, not on a direct revelation in scripture. david h. wagner "but mad reason rushes forth and, a confessional lutheran because baptism is not dazzling like the works which we do, regards it as worthless." --martin luther, large catechism, --fourth part, baptism. 
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 arthur clarke may have quoted the comment about knowing you're to be hanged in the morning concentrating a man's mind wonderfully, but the source of the comment is samuel johnson. (pardon me if you already knew that.) -----je 
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 |> after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts 4 months, it |> has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with |> liberals, catholics, new agers', and athiests. someone might think |> to change the name to: soc.religion.any - or - perhaps even |> soc.religion.new. it might seem to be more appropriate. |> heck, don't flame me, i'm catholic, gay, and i voted |> for bill clinton. i'm on your side! my sentiments exactly... which is why i'm unsubbing from this group. this is the 3rd 'christian' discussion list i have ever belonged to and once again i'm being chased away by the strife, anger, discontent, lies, et al . as paul (saul) said, 'i come to preach christ, and him crucified' don't let the simple beauty of faith in god get overshadowed by heady theological discussions or thousands of lines of post-incarnation trappings of some church. as for the atheists/agnostics who read this list: if you aren't christian and if you have no intention of ever becoming one why on earth do you waste your time and mine by participating on a christian discussion list ? i will continue to search for christian discussion (prayerful, spirit-filled, kind, humble, patient, etc.) in other circles. sheila patterson, cit cr-technical support group 315 ccc - cornell university ithaca, ny 14853 (607) 255-5388 [i'm afraid that any discussion group containing people with different views tends to turn into arguments about the largest differences present. so talk.religion.misc spends a lot of time on christian/atheist arguments, soc.religion.christian spends a lot of time on arguments among different christian groups, and the bitnet catholic group spends a lot of time on arguments between conservative and liberal catholics. personally i would prefer to have a set of somewhat more specialized groups, at least as an alternative. liberal and conservative protestant and catholic would handle most of the traffic, though there are certainly significant groups (e.g. orthodox). of course it may be that most of our readers like the arguments. i certainly find it painful moderating them. --clh] 
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 ites: while this is essentially a discussion of reincarnation in the context of christianity gerry palo has made some comparisons to asian religious beliefs on this topic which have simplified the asian idea of karma to the point of misrepresentation. i realized that my generalizations would probably have problems under scrutiny from various asian points of view. they need to be discussed in detail, indeed. but for the purposes of this newsgroup and thread thus far and in this newsgroup, i risked oversimpli- fication. my main purpose was to emphasize that i was not coming from a buddhist or hindu point of view. as you observed, the main context is that of christianity. but by all means, add comments and corrections as you find them. i wrote a longer reply addressing some of your points, but decided to not post it. perhaps it would be more appropriate for soc.religion. eastern. instead i just add the following couple of items about karma and reincarnation as i see the matter from an anthroposophical and a christian point of view. 1. karma is not simple reward and punishment dealt out by a "judging deity". 2. reincarnation is not the same as being born again. 3. reincarnation is not the same as the resurrection of the body. 4. reincarnation and karma do not contradict the fundamental teachings of christianity about god, the fall, the being. incarnation, death, and resurrection of christ, his coming again, sin, grace, forgiveness, salvation, and the last judgement. isn't origen usually cited as the most prestigious proponent of reincarnation among christian thinkers? what were his views, and how did he relate them to the christian scriptures? jack carroll origen's work was mostly lost. he was not anathematized, to my knowledge, but his writing comes down largely in fragments and quotations from enemies. perhaps someone else can comment on origen. i don't know if there is a specific statement about reincarnation from him, but from what i do know about him he probably did hold to the teaching in one form or another. i don't know too much about the history of the idea of reincarnation in the church. however, i heard an interesting story about pope john paul ii from an astronomer who teaches at the university of cracow. the pope likes to go to poland for a scientific conference every couple of years so he can relax and talk polish to friends and fellow countrymen. my acquaintance, an anthroposophist, related the fact that woitila knew about steiner and anthroposophy from his early days. before he became a priest he was an actor in a dramatic company in cracow whose leader was a pupil of steiner and based his acting and directing methods on steiner's indications. part of the work was the study of the basic works of anthroposophy. well, going to this conference with him a few years ago, the astronomer and another polish anthroposophist thought they would ask the pope what he thought about anthroposophy. they chickened out at the last minute, but one of them did ask him what he thought about reincarnation. the pope smiled and said, "actually there have been quite a few good catholics who believed in reincarnation," and he proceeded to name several from the earliest times to modern times. then he changed the subject. my polish friend did not say whether origen was among those he mentioned. gerry palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) [as far as i know origen himself was not anathematized. he was controversial, but avoided outright condemnation during his lifetime. however some of his views were condemned at a council in alexandria in 400 and two councils in constantinople in 543 and 553. i am fairly sure the preexistence of souls is one of the doctrines condemned. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21626">
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 until recently i always understood the term "kingdom theology" to mean the theology of the kingdom of god, but now i have discovered that there is a new and more specialized meaning. i gather that it is also called "dominion theology", and that it has to do with a belief that christians must create a theocratic form of government on earth before christ will come again. i have not come across anyone who believes or advocates this, but i am told that it is a very widespread belief in the usa. can anyone give me any more information about it? here are some of my questions: 1. is it the teaching of any particular denomination? if so, which? 2. where and when does it start? 3. are there any particular publications that propagate it? 4. are there any organizations that propagate it? steve hayes, department of missiology & editorial department univ. of south africa, p.o. box 392, pretoria, 0001 south africa internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za fidonet: 5:7101/20 steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org faq: missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21627">
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 therefore, until someone is capable of comprehending god's laws they are not accountable for living them. they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god. a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn't the bible ever say so. it never comes right and says "only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised." what christ did say was : "i solemly assure you, no one can enter god's kingdom without being born of water and spirit ... do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above." could this be because everyone is born with original sin? in some earlier discussions on this thread i may have given the impression that even though children didn't require baptism it wouldn't hurt if they were. to the contrary, when you baptize children before they are capable of comprehending it you deny them their opportunity to demonstrate their desire to serve god. have any of you considered that children are not accountable for sin because they are not capable of peter said to a group of "men and brethren," "repent and be baptized every one of you" (acts 2:38). notice that he specified that if they *repent* then they may be *baptized*. in following peter's instructions people must first demonstrate repentance (a forsaking of their sins and a desire to obey god's commands) *before* they are eligible to be baptized. since young children are not capable of repenting, they are not eligible for baptism. and since god is both just and merciful "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (romans 5:13), young children are not accountable for what they can't a idler 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21628">
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 my feeling on baptism is this: parents baptize their baby so that the baby has the sanctifying grace of baptism (and thus removal of original sin) on its soul in the event of an unexpected death. you are right, michael. in john 3:5, jesus says, "amen, amen, i say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of god without being born of water and spirit." that's really what he said, and he meant it. that verse is the definition of baptism. i don't have the law book in front of me, but there is a canon law that urges parents to baptize their children within one week of birth for the very reason that you state. randal lee nicholas mandock gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu 
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 when an alleged private revelation attracts sufficient attention, the church may investigate it. if the investigation indicates a likelihood that the alleged private revelation is in fact from god, it will be approved. that means that it can be preached in the church. however, it is still true that no one is required to believe that it came from god. a catholic is free to deny the authenticity of even the most well attested and strongly approved private revelations, such as those at fatima and lourdes. (i suspect that few if any catholics do reject fatima and lourdes, but if any do their rejection of them does not mean they are not orthodox catholics in good standing.) it may be a bit much to say that a catholic is free to deny what happened at fatima. that's a bit strong, it is sort of like saying that a catholic is free to deny that hong kong exists. what a catholic *is* free to do is to deny the truth of fatima, without being called a heretic. you can be labeled other things for such an offense, but not a heretic. theologians make a basic distinction as far as the degree of assent one must give to events like fatima and lourdes. things revealed by god through jesus christ or his apostles must be given the assent due to a revelation of god: total and unswerving. fatima and lourdes demand our assent as much as any other well-attested event in human history. perhaps a bit more, given the approval of the church. "approval" of an apparition by the church principally means that whatever happened was in harmony with the catholic faith. i personally think of private revelations as our lord's way of telling us what to do at particular periods in history. he gave us all the doctrines, etc., 2000 years ago, but we can always use some help in knowing how exactly to apply what he gave us. catholic devotion to the sacred heart was a result of a series of apparitions to st. margaret mary alacoque, for example. the problem at the time was extreme moral rigorism that was turning our lord into someone without a heart. the fatima apparitions were a warning of an impending crisis in the church (we are living it), and what to do to save the most souls possible in such a situation. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21634">
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 [often we get into discussions about who is christian. unfortunately there are a number of possible definitions. starting from the broadest, commonly used definitions are: 3) the next level is an attempt to give a broad doctrinal definition, which includes all of the major strands of christianity, but excludes groups that are felt to be outside "historic christianity." this is of course a slippery enterprise, since catholics could argue that protestants are outside historic christianity, etc. but i think the most commonly accepted definition would be based on something like the nicene creed and the formula of chalcedon. are you sure you want to include chalcedon here? i presume that you mean the description of jesus as fully human and fully devine. almost everyone would consider the majority of copts and armenians, and the jacobites, as christians, yet for 15 centuries it has been maintained that they disagree with the formula of chalcedon. those that wouldn't consider them christians are most likely to object that these communities don't require a personal commitment to jesus, which is only tangentially related to the formula of chalcedon. thanks, john kolassa, kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu [as i understand the recent discussion here, the copts for all practical purposes accept chalcedon. they talk about one nature rather than two, but the issue seems to be one of terminology rather than substance. --clh] 
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 [deletia- recovery programs, etc] i do need you to show me that there is such a thing as a "spiritual need"; to do that it may be necessary to show me that *spirits* (souls, whatnot) exist; god is not important to that as far as i can tell. i get the feeling that we are debating at cross-purposes--that we do not see the same fundamental assumptions, and this perhaps makes my answers orthogonal to your questions. i will try again. perhaps you believe that nothing exists aside from objectively observable and provable things. in that case, i cannot show you that there is such thing as a spirit or a spiritual need--these things do not exist in the realm of the objective, but in the realm of the subjective. otoh, if you wish you can simply (but explicitly, please) *assume* spirits exist, and then show me that they would have needs, and that a.a. handles these needs in some way. you can assume god exists too if that will help. i'll play along. (by a.a., i assume you mean alcoholics anonymous, and not alt.atheism ;) i would not say that aa "handles" spiritual needs. rather i would say that aa (and other 12-step programs) help people come to terms with their needs--ie that aa is facilitating the recovery, and that as part of the recovery, they recognize their spiritual needs, and begin to rely on a "higher power" (12-step's term) to fill them instead of whatever substance abuse they had been accustomed to. (sorry, there is no objective proof here either--no way to take 2 identical alcoholics and try to have one recover by fulfilling spiritual needs, and one without and externally compare the difference--we are talking about the virtually infinite complexity of *people* here.) but i should say, if god is a necessary component of your "spiritual needs" then i truely do not understand at all. it sounds to me like *spirits* have needs that should be fulfilled by god, but can be "masked" in other ways (drugs etc). if this is the case, then you can leave out god: just describe the problem, not the solution. spiritual needs could be defined as things that people need in addition to physical requirements like air, food, sleep, etc. these are things like the need for love and acceptance, and the need for meaning in life. if one denies the existence of spiritual things, one would presumably call these "emotional needs". the reason christians call them spiritual needs is that they have aspects that are not fulfillable except by spiritual means--ie a person could be loved and accepted by many people, and do many meaningful things, but still have a need for love, which can only be satisfied by the love of god. now the problem is that there are people who accept the existence of these needs, and people who reject them. since i believe in absolute truth, some of these people are right, and the others are wrong. so here are the 2 possibilities: 1) if christians are right, then we all have spiritual needs--ie we all need god. those who do not realize that they need god are deluded--they just haven't recognized it yet. 2) if christians are wrong, spiritual needs are an artefact of our brain chemicals. well-adjusted and properly-integrated personalities do not have such things. christians are simply using the concept of god and spiritual needs to mask their own inadequacies. i hate to belabour the point, but the existence of spirits and spiritual needs cannot be objectively demonstrated or proven, just like the existence of god cannot. and yes, this means that there is a risk that all my subjective evidence is manufactured by my brain chemicals. but on the other hand, i could venture into solipsism and say that there is a risk that everything that i appear to objectively know is really manufactured by my brain chemicals. i suspect this is an unsatisfactory answer to a request for evidence and demonstration of the existence of spirits and spiritual needs, but my assertion is that such things are not objectively demonstrable. as i have said before, i myself am on the christian side of agnosticism, having been pushed off the fence by subjective evidence. (and no, i was not raised a christian, so it is not a case of simply accepting what i was indoctrinated with.) seanna watson bell-northern research, | pray that at the end of living, (seanna@bnr.ca) ottawa, ontario, canada | of philosophies and creeds, | god will find his people busy opinion, what opinions? oh *these* opinions. | planting trees and sowing seeds. no, they're not bnr's, they're mine. | i knew i'd left them somewhere. | --fred kaan 
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 on these counts, the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god. to quote unger's bible dictionary on the apocrapha: 1. they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and 2. they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture. 3. they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture. 4. they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling. first, to point out the obvious: while #4 would clearly be a highly subjective issue, one would be hard pressed to point to another book of the ot (or for that matter the nt) that doesn't, on some issues, in some way, fail one or more of the first three of these tests. second, one factor the deuterocanonicals share is the lateness of their composition. i don't recall the exact dating of all of the books, but most --if not all-- were written after the latest of the canonical books (i.e. daniel). furthermore, while the deuterocanonical may or may not have been originally written in greek, they are clearly deeply _hellenistic_ in nature. both of these features probably figured heavily in the rejection of these books from the various canons. these may not be strict and uniformly applicable criteria by which to judge the canonicity of these books, but, as these discussions have shown, i think the one thing we can see is that there _are_ no purely objective standards for determining canonicity. ;(and (funcall (get 'smurfy-smile-icon 'like-predicate) 'lisp) (sys::honk)) 
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 [to the moderator: i posted this about a week ago but it never showed up (locally) on the net. if this has already actually been posted, please fill free to flush this copy. --n] does anyone now where an english translation of the long recension of the acts of the apostles can be found? 1] a english translation of this can be found in: "the acts of the apostles, translated from the codex bezae, with an introduction on its lucan origin and importance", j. m. wilson (london, 1923). 2] another work that might be useful is: "the acts of the apostles, a critical edition with introduction and notes on selected passages", albert c. clark (oxford, 1933; reprinted 1970). (this is an edition of text of acts that makes the assumption that the text in codex bezae is the more authentic. i don't know if it actually contains an english translation or not.) 3] another useful that discusses many of the variants in detail is: "the theological tendency of the codex bezae cantabrigiensis in acts", eldon j epp (cambridge, 1966). 4] the most recent reference i found was an edition in french from the early '80s. (i can supply the reference if anyone's interested.) 5] now, many of the works are going to be difficult to find. so if you're interested in examining the differences in the long recension an excellent (and easily obtainable) discussion can be found in: "a textual commentary on the greek nt", bruce metzger (united bible society, 1971). metzger's book serves as a companion volume to the ubs 3rd edition of the greek nt. it contains a discussion on the reasoning that went behind the decisions on each of the 1440 variant readings included in the ubs3. furthermore, notes on an addition 600 readings are included in atcotgnt (the majority of these occur in acts). "[an attempt was made] to set before the reader a more or less full report (with an english translation) of the several additions and other modifications that are attested by western witnesses ... since many of these have no corresponding apparatus in the text-volume, care was taken to supply an adequate conspectus of the evidence that supports the divergent readings." (p 272). i understand that one of the early codexes, vaticanus and siniaticus has this version of acts. it would be interesting to know what the differences are between the long and the short forms. 6] most of the copies of the text of acts that we have (including the ones in vaticanus and siniaticus) adher pretty closely to the shorter (or alexandrian) version. the longer version to which you refer is usually called the "western" version and its main witness is the codex bezae (althought there are a few other rather fragmentary sources). 7] as far as size, the difference is that in clark's edition (mentioned above) the book of acts contains 19,983 words whereas the text edited by westcott and hort (a typical alexandrian text) contains 18,401 words; i.e. a difference of about 8-1/2%. 8] to answer the obvious questions, no, there are no major revelations in the longer text nor major omissions in the shorter text. the main difference seems to "expansion" of detail in the western text (or, if you prefer "contractions" in the alexandrian). the western text seems to be given to more detail. there are some interesting specific cases, but this probably not the place to go into it in detail. 9] the discussion over the years as to which of these versions is the more authentic has been hot and heavy. if there is anything approaching a modern consensus it is (i) that neither text represents purely the "authentic" version, (ii) each variant reading has to be examined on its own merits however, (iii) the variant in the alexandrian text is the "better" more often than not. 
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 and do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. luke 12:29 
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 this paragraph brought to mind a question. how do you (mormons) reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ's statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage (luke, chapt. 20)? that's the whole point, david. as spirits separated from their bodies and living in the spirit world, they cannot undergo the ordinance of marriage, just as they cannot be baptized, since there is no physical body to be baptized. we perform these ordinances as proxies for them, in their behalf. thanks for asking. brooks * brooks haderlie (brh54@cas.org) * " o be wise; what can i say more?" * * columbus, oh by way of ucon, id * - jacob 6:12 * * * * these opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. * 
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 several replies to my post have said that i should get to know christian homosexuals before judging them. i maintain that i was not judging them by saying that homosexuality is wrong. i would like to look at the responces to my post and make a general sterotypical evaluation of the people who responded to the side of christianity and homosexuality being compatible (admitedly not all are homosexuals but i know that many are from their e-mail responces). i don't normally make sterotypical assumptions about groups of people, but since i have been asked to by many of the opposing veiw point i will. so far people have made wild assumptions, put me down because i don't have the resources of others, and even reverted to name calling. if you don't think this is an acurate representation then those of you who are homosexual christians show me the diffrence. in christ's love, 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21645">
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 interesting point. the bible doesn't say "hate the sin". it tells to avoid sin, resist sin, even, when necessary, denounce sin. but not hate. :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< [the following passages all talk about god or people god approves of hating sin or some other action. ps 119:113 also talks about hating the sinner. i believe there are other passages that would talk about hating someone who is evil, but i didn't turn them up in this search (which was on the word "hate" in the kjv, though i've crosschecked each passage in the nrsv). ps 97:10, 101:3, 105:25, 119:104, 113, 128, 163, , 139:21-22 prov 6:16, 8:13 isa 61:8 amos 5:15 zec 8:17 rev 2:6 --clh] 
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 [this is a response to a request for a biblical reference about satan being a fallen angel. --clh] isaiah 14:12 [a common reading of this passage is that it's referring to the king of babylon, using mythological language ironically, because of his claims. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21647">
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 "christianity in crisis" by: hank hanegraaff "controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin. controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command." -dr. walter martin dr. walter martin personally selected hank hanegraaff to succeed him as president of the christian research institute -- the largest evangelical counter-cult organization in the world. in this skillful, careful treatment of an explosive subject, hanegraaff documents and examines how the beliefs of the word of faith movement clearly compromises and confuse the essentials of the historic christian faith. for the first time ever, this large and influential movement is legitimately labeled as cultic. in this book, hanegraaff discusses such leaders of the word of faith movement as e.w. kenyon and the twelve apostles of "another gospel" (gal 1:6-9) (kenneth e. hagin, kenneth copeland, benny hinn, frederick k.c. price, john avanzini, robert tilton, marilyn hickey, paul (david) yonggi cho, charles capps, jerry savelle, morris cerullo, and paul and jan crouch). the book is now available through harvest house publishers and should be in most christian book stores soon. you can order a hard-back copy through cri for $14.99 by calling 1-800-443-9797 and avoid retail mark-ups. the christian research journal, which is a quarterly publication by cri has an article in it's most recent issue just released called, "what's wrong with the word faith movement?" this is a good article that will inform you of each of the teachers above, and tide you over until your book arrives. if you are interested in receiving the journal yourself, you can order it from cri at the number above for $14 a year. it is the best source of the most-accurate and well-researched info in christiandom [if we're going to have a discussion of book here (and this is the third posting so far), i'd like people to say enough about its contents for people to decide whether it's worth reading. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21648">
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 colossians 2:11-12 "in him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of god, who raised him from the dead." in baptism, we are raised to a new life in christ (romans 6:4) through a personal faith in the power of god. our parent's faith cannot do this. do infants have faith? let's look at what the bible has to say about it. i don't think the issue of whether infants have faith is relevant or not. certainly they *can*, as the example of john in utero proves. i find the translation of col 2 above odd in terms of the circumcision of christ, which the kjv and rsv put in terms of christ's cricumcision which we, in union with him *participate* in putting off the body of sins of the flesh. also, perhaps cor 2:12 is dividing the act of burial with him in baptism, which can be independant of faith, from the experience of rising with christ by faith. who says both are by faith? this interpretation has the advantage of explaining those who are faithlessly baptized, for whom their baptisim is not benefit, but serves to put them into the kingdom nonetheless. like the israelites (all of them, children included) who were baptized in the cloud and in the sea, it was of no advantage because they did not add to their baptism faith and obedience. baptism does not impart faith, nor is it done strictly speaking on the basis of the faith of the parent, but because of the covcenant promise of god. it imparts grace, the grace of the kingdom, which can be a punishement in disguise if there is later apostacy. romans 10:16-17 "but not all the israelites accepted the good news. for isaiah says, 'lord, who has believed our message?' consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of christ." so then we receive god's gift of faith to us as we hear the message of the gospel. faith is a possible response to hearing god's word preached. kids are not yet spiritually, intellectually, or emotionally mature enough to respond to god's word. hence they cannot have faith and therefore cannot be raised in baptism to a new life. do you teach a child to pray the lord's prayer? do you expect them to not steal? they *can* have faith appropriate to their condition. and in the new covenant, we shall no longer say: know the lord, for they shall all know him from the least unto the greatest heb 8:11. if you read all of ezekiel 18, you will see that god doesn't hold us guilty for anyone else's sins. so we can have no original guilt from adam. but also according to ezekiel 18, god will not hold innocent anyone on the basis of anyone elses innocense. thus jesus could not be our federal head any more than adam, *if* that's what ezekiel is talking about. shall you make ezekiel 18 contradict the second commandemnt as well? ezekiel 18:31-32 "rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committted, and get a new heart and a new spirit. why will you die, o house of israel? for i take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the sovereign lord. repent and live!" the way to please god is to repent and get a new heart and spirit. kids cannot do this. acts 2:38-39 says that when we repent and are baptized, we will then receive a new spirit, the holy spirit. then we shall live. ezekiel 36:25-26 indicates that this new heart will be given by god, in the context of the sprinkling of water in baptism. it is the action of god puting them into his new order, and not a question of"personal" faith as such. romans 5:12 "therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--" sin and death entered the world when the first man sinned. death came to each man because each man sinned. note that it's good to read through all of romans 5:12-21. some of the verses are easier to misunderstand than others, but if we read them in context we will see that they are all saying basically the same thing. let's look at one such. but the death that came to all because of sin is not just their personal death, but the dead state (originbal sin). we are in a covenant of death, because adam, our federal head gave over his dominion to the devil and death. psalm 51:5 "surely i was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble ourselves before god in repentance for sinning. david himself was a man after god's own heart and wrote the psalm after committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband. all that david is saying here is that he can't remember a time when he wasn't sinful. he is humbling himself before god by confessing his sinfulness. his saying that he was sinful at birth is a hyperbole. the bible, being inspired by god, isn't limited to a literal interpetation, but also uses figures of speech as did jesus (john 16:25). for another example of hyperbole, see luke 14:26. while this psalm is figurative in it's language, it is not hyperbolic, and the one does not necessarily imply the other. there is not other hyperbolic language in this psalm. what v 5 is likely refering to is what is symbolized by the ot cleanliness laws (which make intercourse and childbrith both acts which caus uncleannes and seperation from god). the whole psalm is in the language of ot ritual (hyssop, cleansing, burnt offering, etc) david's sin with bathsheba included this element, as he did not ritually cleanse himself when he should have. but what was symbolized by the ot ritual was the truth that sin was passed generationally. that's why the organ of generation had to be cut. that's why brith was unclean. uncleanness was death, and all babies were born dead, and needed to be washed to newness of life, which we have in baptism today. paul duggan 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21649">
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 hate begets more hate, never love. consider some sin. i'll leave it unnamed since i don't want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin. now lets apply our "hate the sin..." philosophy and see what happens. if we truly hate the sin, then the more we see it, the stronger our hatred of it will become. eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner. though you can certaily assert all this, i don't see why it necessarily has to be the case. why can't hate just stay as it is, and not beget more? who says we have to get disgusted and start hating the sinner. i admit this happens, but i donlt think you can say it is always necessaily why can we not hate with a perfect hatred? in the summary of the law, christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors. he doesn't say anything about hate. in fact, if anything, he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves. so, how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others? i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin (either in others or ourselves)...through prayer. we certainly we should love even our enemies. amos 5:15 says to hate the evil and love the good. this can't contradict christ's teaching. i think we tie up both hate and love with an emotional attitude, when it really should be considered more objectively. surely i don't fly into a rage at every sin i see, but why can i not "hate" it? paul duggan 
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 can't someone describe someone's trinity in simple declarative sentences that have common meaning? i offer him four attempts. first is an essay by me (largely indebted to attempts two and three), obtainable by sending the message get trinity analogy to listserv@asuacad.bitnet or to listserv@asuvm.inre.asu.edu second is a couple of books by dorothy l sayers: a play called the zeal of thy house, and a non-fiction book called the mind of the maker. the play can be found in the book four sacred plays, and also in various other collections, including one called religious drama (meridian books) and one called best plays of 1937. third is the book mere christianity by c s lewis, particularly the last section, called "beyond personality". fourth is a book called theology for beginners, by the roman catholic writer frank sheed. i will say that i do not find sheed's approach altogether satisfying, but i know some persons whose minds i respect who do. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21654">
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 2. it is more likely than not that when st. john (or whomever) wrote the book of revelation what was then considered scripture was ** not ** the same thing you and i are holding in our hands! revelation was almost certainly written durin the reign of domition (sp?), a.d. 80-96. thus it could be argues that we are all in sin if we accept 2 peter as scripture, since it was "added" to the book after the composition of revelation, when we are told to add nothing more. okay, i went back and looked: sure enough, my hunch was right. 2 peter was most likely written between 100-120 a.d. revelation was almost certainly written between 80-96 a.d. odds are the gospel of john was written around 90 a.d. best dates for luke and acts are around 80 a.d., maybe later. again, this is from footnoted information in the new american bible, the best translation i've come across in regards to giving complete historical information about each book. [of course the folks who you're arguing with almost certainly do not accept 2 peter as being pseudonymous. in that case they'd have to date it far earlier than this. --clh] 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21656">
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 fred gilham asks whether it is true that goedel wrote a version of the ontological argument for the existence of god. yes, it is true. someone has published a rebuttal pointing out certain flaws in the argument, and recently professor c anthony anderson, of the philosophy department of the university of minnesota, has written a revised version of the argument, perhaps free of flaws, and at any rate free of the flaws complained of in the original version. he has sent me a copy, which i still have (i saw it last week when i was looking for something else), and when it surfaces again i can supply particulars. my guess is that it is being published (or already has been) in the journal of symbolic james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21657">
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 i have enrolled in "the history of christianity" at a college here in st. louis. the teacher of the class is what i consider to be closed-minded and bigotted on the subject of what the definition of christianity is. his definition is tied directly to that of the trinity and the catholic church's definition of it and belief in jesus christ is not sufficient to call one's self a christian. what you call "the trinity and the catholic church's definition of it" is precisely the result of the first christians getting together and trying to find an acceptable answer to your question "what is a christian?". i can't see what you are objecting to: someone is saying what historians of all beliefs would agree on, and you are calling him a closed-minded bigot? you really ought to say what you mean by "belief in jesus christ". it is not a wording that is sufficient to describe a christian. muslims believe in jesus christ although they believe he was a prophet and not the incarnated son of god. but followers of eastern religions might be quite happy to say that jesus was the incarnation of god - along with large numbers of other historical and mythical figures. so perhaps you ought to rephrase your question and say precisely what it is in the traditional definitions of what it is to be a christian, as handed down by the universal church, you object to but regard as unnecessary for being a christian. matthew huntbach 
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 what is the proper way to dispose of old blessed palms? i`ve have a bunch that i`ve been holding onto. in addition, my mom has been giving me her's. i used to give them to my uncle who would burn them (and leave the ashes to seep into the ground). should i do the same? could i just bury them? could i add them to my compost bin? thanks in advance. --tony 
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 [continuing with dr. deyoung's article-] survey of new interpretations of arsenokoitai d.s. bailey d.s. bailey was perhaps the trailblazer of new assessments of the meaning of arsenokoitai. he takes the term in i cor 6:9 as denoting males who actively engage in homosexual acts, in contrast to malakoi ("effeminate"), those who engage passively in such acts.*4 however, he insists that paul knew nothing of "inversion as an inherited trait, or an inherent condition due to psychological or glandular causes, and consequently regards all homosexual practice as evidence of perversion" (38). hence bailey limits the term's reference in paul's works to acts alone and laments modern translations of the term as "homosexuals." bailey wants to distinguish between "the homosexual *condition* (which is morally neutral) and homosexual *practices*" [italics in source]. paul is precise in his terminology and moffatt's translation "sodomites" best represents paul's meaning in bailey's judgment (39). bailey clearly denies that the homosexual condition was known by biblical writers. j. boswell the most influential study of arsenokoitai among contemporary authors is that of john boswell.*5 whereas the usual translation*6 of this term gives it either explicitly or implicitly an active sense, boswell gives it a passive in an extended discussion of the term (341-53), he cites "linguistic evidence and common sense" to support his conclusion that the word means "male sexual agents, i.e. active male prostitutes." his argument is that the arseno- part of the word is adjectival, not the object of the koitai which refers to base sexual activity. hence the term, according to boswell, designates a male sexual person or male prostitute. he acknowledges, however, that most interpret the composite term as active, meaning "those who sleep with, make their bed with, men." boswell bases his interpretation on linguistics and the historical setting. he argues that in some compounds, such as paidomathes ("child learner"), the paido- is the subject of manthano, and in others, such as paidoporos ("through which a child passes"), the paido- is neither subject nor object but simply a modifier without verbal significance. his point is that each compound must be individually analyzed for its meaning. more directly, he maintains that compounds with the attic form arreno- employ it objectively while those with the hellenistic arseno- use it as an adjective (343). yet he admits exceptions to this distinction regarding arreno-. boswell next appeals to the latin of the time, namely drauci or exoleti. these were male prostitutes having men or women as their objects. the greek arsenokoitai is the equivalent of the latin drauci; the corresponding passive would be parakoitai ("one who lies beside"), boswell affirms. he claims that arsenokoitai was the "most explicit word available to paul for a male prostitute," since by paul's time the attic words pornos ("fornicator") and porneuon ("one committing fornication"), found also in the lxx, had been adopted "to refer to men who resorted to female prostitutes or simply committed fornication."*7 in the absence of the term from pagan writers such as herodotus, plato, aristotle, and plutarch, and from the jewish writers philo and josephus, boswell finds even more convincing evidence for his affirmation that arsenokoitai "did not connote 'homosexual' or even 'sodomite' in the time of paul" (346).*8 he also demonstrates its absence in pseudo-lucian, sextus empiricus, and libanius. he subsequently finds it lacking in "all discussions of homosexual relation" (346)*9 among christian sources in greek, including the didache, tatian, justin martyr, eusebius,*10 clement of alexandria, gregory of nyssa, and john chrysostom. chrysostom is singled out for his omission as "final proof" that the word could not mean homosexuality.*11 boswell next appeals to the omission of the texts of i cor and i tim from discussions of homosexuality among latin church fathers (348).*12 cited are tertullian, arnobius, lactantius, and augustine. the last named uses "circumlocutions." other latin writers include ausonius, cyprian, and minucius felix. the term is also lacking in state and in church legislation. by the sixth century the term became confused and was applied to a variety of sexual activities from child molesting to anal intercourse between a husband and wife (353). having surveyed the sources, boswell concludes, there is no reason to believe that either arsenokoitai or malakoi connoted homosexuality in the time of paul or for centuries thereafter, and every to suppose that, whatever they came to mean, they were not determinative of christian opinion on the morality of homosexual acts (353). it is clear throughout that boswell defines arsenokoitai to refer to male prostitutes. he even goes so far as to conclude that paul would probably not disapprove of "gay inclination," "gay relationships," "enduring love between persons of the same gender," or "same-sex eroticism" (112, 166-17). 4. d.s. bailey, homosexuality and the western christian tradition. (london: 1975) 38. 5. j. boswell, christianity, social tolerance and homosexuality (chicago: 1980). 6. several tranlation of i tim 1:10 are: kjv, "them that defile themselves with mankind"; asv, "abusers of themselves with men"; nasb, "homosexuals"; rsv, nkjv, nrsv, "sodomites"; neb, niv, "perverts"; gnb, "sexual perverts"; in i cor 6:9 these occur: kjv, "abusers of themselves with mankind"; asv, "abusers of themselves with men"; nasb, rsv, "homosexuals"; nkjv, "sodomites"; neb, "homosexual persversion." the rsv and neb derive their translation from two greek words, malakoi and arsenokoitai which gbn has as "homosexual perverts." nrsv has the two words as "male prostitutes" in the text, and "sodomites" in the footnote. the active idea predominates among the commentators as well; it is the primary assumption. 7. boswell, christianity 344. yet this was no a word "available to paul for a male prostitute," for it does not occur at all in any literature prior to paul (as a serach in the thesaurus linguae graecae using ibycuc confirms). if paul coined the term, it would have no prior history, and all such discussion about its lack of usage in contemporary non-christian and christian literature is 8. again this would be expected if paul coined the word. 9. the key phrase here apparently is "discussoin," for boswell admits later (350 n.42) that it occurs in quotes of paul but there is no discussion in the context. hence the implication is that we cannot tell what these writer (polycarp "to the philippian 5:3"; theophilus "ad autolycum 1.2, 2.14";nilus "epistularum libri quattuor 2.282"; cyril of alexandria "homiliae diversae 14"; "sybilline oravle 2.13") meant. yet polycarp, who was a disiple of hohn the apostle and died about a.d. 155, argues in the context that young men should be pure. he uses only the three terms pornoi, malakoi, and arsenokoitai from paul's list. this at least makes boswell's use of "all" subjective. apparently clement of alexandria "paedogogus 3.11"; sromata 3.18"; also belong 10.. yet eusebius uses it in "demonstraionis evangelicae 1." 11. either boswell is misrepresenting the facts about chrysostom's use of arsenokoitai and its form (about 20) in the vice lists of i cor 6 or i tim 1, or he is begging the question by denying that the word can mean homosexual when chrysostom uses it. yet the meaning of arsenokoitai is the goal of his and our study, whether in the lists or other discussions. boswell later admits (351) that chrysostom uses the almost identicl form arsenokoitos in his commentary on i cor. although boswell suggests that the passage is strange, it may be that paul is seeking to make a refinement in arsenokoitai. 12. apparently jerome is a significant omission here, since he renders arsenokoitai as "masculorum concubitores," corresponding "almost exactly to the greek" (348 n.36). footnotes: 5. d.s. bailey, homosexuality and the western christian tradition. (london: 1975) 38. 6. j. boswell, christianity, social tolerance and homosexuality (chicago: 1980). several tranlation of i tim 1:10 are: kjv, "them that defile themselves with mankind"; asv, "abusers of themselves with men"; nasb, "homosexuals"; rsv, nkjv, nrsv, "sodomites"; neb, niv, "perverts"; gnb, "sexual perverts"; in i cor 6:9 these occur: kjv, "abusers of themselves with mankind"; asv, "abusers of themselves with men"; nasb, rsv, "homosexuals"; nkjv, "sodomites"; neb, "homosexual persversion." the rsv and neb derive their translation from two greek words, malakoi and arsenokoitai which gbn has as "homosexual perverts." nrsv has the two words as "male prostitutes" in the text, and "sodomites" in the footnote. the active idea predominates among the commentators as well; it is the primary assumption. 7. boswell, christianity 344. yet this was no a word "available to paul for a male prostitute," for it does not occur at all in any literature prior to paul (as a serach in the thesaurus linguae graecae using ibycuc confirms). if paul coined the term, it would have no prior history, and all such discussion about its lack of usage in contemporary non-christian and christian literature is meaningless. 8. again this would be expected if paul coined the word. 9. the key phrase here apparently is "discussoin," for boswell admits later (350 n.42) that it occurs in quotes of paul but there is no discussion in the context. hence the implication is that we cannot tell what these writer (polycarp "to the philippian 5:3"; theophilus "ad autolycum 1.2, 2.14";nilus "epistularum libri quattuor 2.282"; cyril of alexandria "homiliae diversae 14"; "sybilline oravle 2.13") meant. yet polycarp, who was a disiple of hohn the apostle and died about a.d. 155, argues in the context that young men should be pure. he uses only the three terms pornoi, malakoi, and arsenokoitai from paul's list. this at least makes boswell's use of "all" subjective. apparently clement of alexandria "paedogogus 3.11"; sromata 3.18"; also belong 10. yet eusebius uses it in "demonstraionis evangelicae 1." 11. either boswell is misrepresenting the facts about chrysostom's use of arsenokoitai and its form (about 20) in the vice lists of i cor 6 or i tim 1, or he is begging the question by denying that the word can mean homosexual when chrysostom uses it. yet the meaning of arsenokoitai is the goal of his and our study, whether in the lists or other discussions. boswell later admits (351) that chrysostom uses the almost identicl form arsenokoitos in his commentary on i cor. although boswell suggests that the passage is strange, it may be that paul is seeking to make a refinement in arsenokoitai. 12. apparently jerome is a significant omission here, since he renders arsenokoitai as "masculorum concubitores," corresponding "almost exactly to the greek" (348 n.36). next: r. scroggs 
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 from bit.listserv.christia zane writes... newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia "frank, first of all, thanks for all of the great scripture verses. it was a pleasure to read them." my reply... you are welcome, zane. zane... "i am sure nothing that i will say will change your mind about it... but i would like to ask you if the book in question really does anything for you. i mean, were you all caught up in the word/faith thing, but now that you have read the book you've been rescued from all of the error and pain that will result in your christian life?" my reply... (1) when i first became a christian, i entered into the word/faith movement. it was easy. i wasn't grounded in the word of god and sound doctrine. when i visited christian book stores, the cheapest books i could find to buy were the .50 and $1.00 books by hagin and others. consequently, i began receiving hagin's monthly magazine (and they still send it to me), and also copeland's (also, still sent to me). it wasn't until i read a booklet by jimmy swaggart called _hyper faith: the new gnosticism_ that i began to realize the teachings i were partaking of were error. i started reading the bible more and studying more. sure enough, jimmy was right in many points. as part of my experience, i am alerting christians, particularly new christians, that these teachings are heretical and they need to do as the bereans did in acts 17:11 - check these teachings out with scripture! (2) my brother in law was involved in a word/faith "cult" in my area - it's leader is real good friends with benny hinn. rather then going into much detail about this, suffice it to say he was deceived, mistreated, and has now fallen into atheism. i'm still praying for him (phil. 1:6). (3) the assistant pastor at the church i teach adult sunday school in has been a `follower' of copeland for 15 years. he has thousands of tapes by the faith teachers. in the class recently, i quoted several of the teachers' heretical statements to his surprise. since then, i've been able to talk to him at length about these issues. (4) the leader of the women's group at my church is a benny hinn `fan'. recently, i found that she has been lending _good morning, holy spirit_ to women in the church. that prompted my quotes in sunday school, as well as my lending cic to people in the church. i'm well aware of the abuses and heresies perpetrated in this movement and have an urgency in my heart and life to warn people about the heresies. what heresies? a. jesus became sin - took on the very nature of the devil, and became one with him. b. jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough to atone. c. jesus was dragged to hell after his death, was beat and abused by satan and demons, thus finishing our atonement. satan was ruling over him there. d. jesus was `born-again' in hell. e. jesus died spiritually, lost his divinity, and reassumed it after the resurrection. f. we are gods. these are heresies. documentation will be provided re: these teachings upon request. zane... "or what does it do for you? is it preventing you from going out and joining up with the word/faith movement which you'd been contemplating joining for so long, but now that you've read the book, you've been saved from all of that?" my reply... it wasn't _christianity in crisis_ that helped me; it was a booklet by swaggart that i mentioned above. but cic is much, much better - tremendous documentation and insights. zane... "i don't have a nice scriptural answer for why i believe it is at best un- profitable for christians to engage in this type of activity - heresy hunting." my reply... why do you call it "heresy hunting"? "hunting" implies it isn't readily accessible or available. this movement is the fastest growing movement in christendom. hagin has sold over 40 million books and booklets. hinn has sold more books in the last couple of years than swindoll and dobson combined. fred price has the largest church in terms of seating capacity in the usa. doesn't sound like much "hunting" is needed. it is scriptural to expose doctrinal error. i gave some verses to you before. more can be given. most of the epistles were written due to error (doctrinal, practical) in the churches. the early church had numerous councils to expose error and heresy. it's not a new thing. remember luther? zane... "i would like to point out though, that historically those who hunt heretics often end up causing a bigger mess than the heretics... but this is my un- documented opinion." my reply... (1) if you can provide documentation, it would be appreciated. (2) read ephesians 4:11-16, esp. vss. 13 and 14 and tell me what causes disunity and immaturity in the body. eph 4:13-14 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.... disunity, contrary to popular opinion, isn't caused by exposing error; it's caused by error. zane... "there are many who probably give no place for seeing the scriptures as documenting a spiritual development or growth in its writers - but i would suggest that the fiery paul of the letter to the galatians mellows and matures into the one who loses all for the sake of love in the end." my reply... most scholars believe paul wrote 2 timothy last. let's examine his admonitions to tim to ascertain how mellow he had become... 2ti 1:13-15 hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in christ jesus. that good thing which was committed to you, keep by the holy spirit who dwells in us. this you know, that all those in asia have turned away from me, among whom are phygellus and 2ti 2:15-18 be diligent to present yourself approved to god, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. but shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. and their message will spread like cancer. hymenaeus and philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2ti 2:24-26 and a servant of the lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if god perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2ti 3:6-9 for of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. now as jannes and jambres resisted moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. 2ti 3:12-17 yes, and all who desire to live godly in christ jesus will suffer persecution. but evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. but you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in christ jesus. all scripture is given by inspiration of god, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of god may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2ti 4:2-5 preach the word! be ready in season and out of season. convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. but you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2ti 4:14-15 alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. may the lord repay him according to his works. you also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words. zane... "the picture i have of paul is not of one who goes out of his way to destroy the ministry of wolves... but of one who teaches the sheep, with many tears, the necessity of absolutely not allowing themselves to be transformed into wolves to protect themselves." my reply... act 20:26-31 "therefore i testify to you this day that i am innocent of the blood of all men. "for i have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of god. "therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of god which he purchased with his own blood. "for i know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. "also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. "therefore watch, and remember that for three years i did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. zane... "for all the warning paul does, it is of note that he never once drops a name of a wolf.... - but i will admit he cries in his beard at the end over those who have abandoned him - everyone in asia wasn't it ?" my reply... paul mentioned names... 1ti 1:18-20 this charge i commit to you, son timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are hymenaeus and alexander, whom i delivered to satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 2ti 1:15 this you know, that all those in asia have turned away from me, among whom are phygellus and hermogenes. 2ti 2:16-18 but shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. and their message will spread like cancer. hymenaeus and philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2ti 4:10 for demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for thessalonica--crescens for galatia, titus for dalmatia. 2ti 4:14-15 alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. may the lord repay him according to his works. you also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words. so did john... 3jo 1:9-10 i wrote to the church, but diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. therefore, if i come, i will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. and not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. jesus also singled out teachings and doctrines... rev 2:14-16 "but i have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of balaam, who taught balak to put a stumbling block before the children of israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. "thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans, which thing i hate. 'repent, or else i will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. rev 2:20-23 "nevertheless i have a few things against you, because you allow that woman jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. "and i gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. "indeed i will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. "i will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that i am he who searches the minds and hearts. and i will give to each one of you according to your zane... "i question too, the purposes of those who write books and build ministries on the faults - deliberate or otherwise - of others. maybe if they would wander around in the desert eating locust and honey, or barely cakes...with no worldly goods at stake, money to be made, or no reputations to maintain... i would question their motives - conscious or otherwise - less." my reply... i won't comment on this because it deals with the intangible motives of others. but even if they had bad motives, remember what paul said... phi 1:15-18 some indeed preach christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: the former preach christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that i am appointed for the defense of the gospel. what then? only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, christ is preached; and in this i rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. zane... "if we want to be true to the admonitions of scripture - many of which you list - about protecting ourselves and the flock from wolves and winds of doctrines, i suggest we start by allowing the wolf-program in our own noetic pasture to be nailed to the cross." my reply... please explain. zane... "secondly, i suggest any heresy hunting be restricted to our own fellowships - which in the strict scriptural sense is the local city-church." my reply... if heresy was not being propagated over the mass media, then it may not be needed to go mass media with the exposure. unfortunately, heresy is being taught not just in copeland's church or hagin's or hinn's or price's, but all over the radio, in print, etc. no pastor or church leader knows what materials the sheep are feeding on outside the church. it's imperative that leadership be made aware of this, and cic does just that. also, let's examine a passage of scripture... * eph 4:11 and he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, * eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of christ, these ministry gifts that the lord installs in the church are not just for one individual church, but for "the body of christ". paul was an apostle - he traveled all over distilling his message. he was also a teacher - 1co 4:17 for this reason i have sent timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the lord, who will remind you of my ways in christ, as i teach everywhere in every church. 1co 7:17 but as god has distributed to each one, as the lord has called each one, so let him walk. and so i ordain in all the churches. also - 1co 12:28 and god has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. * eph 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of christ; notice that the "five-fold" ministries are going to be around "till" the church is in "unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god to a perfect man". this, i believe will not occur fully until the lord jesus returns (see 1cor. 13:9-12). but god wants the body to continue on maturing. what hinders maturity and unity of the body? * eph 4:14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, it's clear that false doctrine, integrated into the church "by the trickery of men" causes (1) disunity [the thing we are striving for] and (2) spiritual immaturity - the church continues in spiritual childhood when christians are "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine". the "five -fold" ministry, of which there does not appear to be clear scriptural denominational boundaries ("pastors" appear responsible for their individual flock), is to deal with these doctrines (when necessary) in their struggle to equip the body. all believers are called to do this to a degree... jud 1:3-4 beloved, while i was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, i found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our god into lewdness and deny the only lord god and our lord jesus christ. zane... "if you'll notice, in scripture the heresy hunters that went from church to church and area to area, were the "bad guys" and they went after the "good guy" namely paul - who they considered to be the arch heretic." my reply... they were themselves heretics trying to discredit paul who was preaching contrary to what they taught! zane... "let's face it, the wolves are here for a reason. and we are here for the reason. and let's hope the wolves become sheep, and the sheep, lambs." my reply... yes! 2ti 2:24-26 and a servant of the lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if god perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. amen! "if one wished to contend with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand." job 9:3 
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 "hate the sin but love the sinner"...i've heard that quite a bit recently, often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality... but the context really isn't that important. my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity. i would think not. hate begets more hate, never love. consider some sin. i'll leave it unnamed since i don't want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin. now lets apply our "hate the sin..." philosophy and see what happens. if we truly hate the sin, then the more we see it, the stronger our hatred of it will become. eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner. in addition, our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and that is an assumption on your part. where is your proof that one always will degenerate into hating the sinner, because he hates the sin. i am reminded of the civil rights movement in america. it is true that many individuals hated the proponents of racism. it is also true that many individuals hated segregation and discrimination with their whole heart and never degenerated into hating the individuals who practiced it. dr. king's message was this. love the individual, the loving of the individual would transform him into a friend. however, this did not take away his hatred for segregation. his hatred for injustice. in the summary of the law, christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors. he doesn't say anything about hate. in fact, if anything, he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves. so, how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others? i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin (either in others or ourselves)...through prayer. we need to ask god to help us with our own sin, and to help those we love with theirs. only love can conquer sin...hatred has no place. the best way to love someone is to pray for them. i would ask, "did john the baptist practice love when he criticized the jewish leaders of his day?" did jesus practice love when he threw the moneychangers out of the temple? we must have at least a distase for sin. we must in order to fight it in ourselves. also we must be ready for the call from god to call sin by its right name. jesus loved everyone, but he called sin by its right name. it is true that love for others is to guide every step of our walk, but it is also true that sometimes the love for god calls us to stand up for truth. "competition is the law of the jungle. cooperation is the law of civilization." -- eldridge cleaver sherman cox, ii scox@uahcs2.cs.uah.edu 
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 the following was published in the may 15th rocky mountain news. i guess i have some real ethical problems with the practices at this church. i understand that baptism is an overriding factor. i also understand that this is not an honest way to proceed. unfortunately, this is becoming more typical of congregations as the second coming is perceived to approach. there is a real element of disparation in this 'make it happen at any cost' style of theology. i wonder where trust in the lord fits into this equation? baptisms draw parents' ire -- children at church carnival in springs told they'd be killed by bee stings if they didn't submit to religious by dick foster -- rocky mountain news southern bureau colorado springs -- outraged parents say their children were lured to a church carnival and then baptixed without their permission by a baptist minister. doxens of children, some as young as 8 years old and unaccompanied by their parents, thought they were going to a carnival at the cornerstone baptist church, where there would be a big water fight, free balloons, squirt guns and candy. before that may 1 carnival was over, however, children were whisked into a room for religious instruction and told they should be baptized. in many cases they consented, although they or their families are not of the baptist faith. the baptisms by the church have angered many parents, including paulette lamontagne, a methodist and mother of twin 8-year-old girls who were baptized without her knowledge or consent. 'my understnading was they were going to a carnival. i feel that's a false pretense,' said lamontagne. her daughters said the minister told them they would be killed by bee stings if they were not cornerstone church officials defended their actions. 'we take our instructions from the word of god and god has commanded us to baptize converts. no one can show me one passage in the bible where it says that parental permission is required before a child is baptized,' said dan irwin, associate pastor of the cornerstone baptist church officials did not tell parents their children would be baptized because 'they didn't ask,' irwin said. many other parents also felt they were simply sending their children to a carnival at the invitation of their children's friends who were members of the cornerstone church. police said chhurch officials had broken on laws in baptizing the children, but indicated the parents could pursue civil action. aren't these the same behaviors we condemn in the hari krishnas and other cults? [i think the issues are more complex than the newspaper account mentions. first, i'm not entirely sure that parental consent is absolutely required. this would be extremely difficult, because of the clear commandment to obey parents. but if an older child insisted on being baptized without their parents' consent, i might be willing to do it. however this would be a serious step, and would warrant much careful discussion. the problem i find here is not so much parental consent as that there was nobody's consent. whether you believe in infant baptism or not, baptism is supposed to be the sign of entry into a christian community. if there isn't a commitment from *somebody*, whether parent or child, and no intent to become part of the church, the baptism appears to be a lie. furthermore, it is likely to raise serious practical problems. what if the child is from a baptist tradition? normally when he reaches the age of decision, he would be expected to make a decision and be baptized. but he already has been, by a church claiming to be a baptist church. so does he get rebaptized? neither answer is really very good. if not, he's being robbed of an experience that should be very significant to his faith. --clh] 
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 i'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to a rather trivial question which i've been thinking about: what was the process used to divide the bible into verses. i believe jerome divided the new testament, but i've never seen any discussion of *how* he did this. it seems rather arbitrary, as opposed to, for example, making each sentence a verse. 
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 [...] i believe that the one important thing that those who wrote the old and new testament passages cited above did not know was that there is scientific evidence to support that homosexuality is at least partly _inherent_ rather than completely learned. this means that to a certain extent -- or to a great extent -- homosexuals cannot choose how to feel [...] but one of the most basic concepts of christian morality is that we all have defective appetites due to original sin. not just homosexuals, but everybody. thus we are not entitled to indulge in whatever behavior our bodies want us to. i think we need to keep clear the distinction between homosexual _behavior_ (which is wrong) and homosexual _orientation_ (which is not a sin, merely a misfortune). [please: no email replies. respond in this public forum.] :- michael a. covington, associate research scientist : ***** :- artificial intelligence programs mcovingt@ai.uga.edu : ********* :- the university of georgia phone 706 542-0358 : * * * :- athens, georgia 30602-7415 u.s.a. amateur radio n4tmi : ** *** ** <>< 
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 this might be better directed to s.r.c.bible-study, which i have begun reading, but since my earlier notes were posted to this forum, i will conclude here as well. a week ago, i managed to find time to consult a septuagint concordance and a lxx text with apparatus at the library, and i can now usefully conclude my look at the greek words for love as used in the christian background of the septuagintal translation of the jewish scriptures. the principal result is that there is a cluster of uses of the verbal noun from _erao:_, _eraste:s_ meaning "lover." this cluster occurs just where one might most expect it, in the propethic image (and accusation) of israel as faithless spouse to yhwh. the verses in question are hosea 2:5,7 & 10; jeremiah 4:30, 22:20 & 22; lamentations 1:19; and ezekiel 16:33, 36 &37 and 23:5, 9 & 22. [ hosea seems to have originated this usage, which jeremiah and ezekiel picked up; lamentations is dependent on, though not likely written by, jeremiah. ] the "erotic" meaning (in its allegorical use, not at all literally) is evident. so too in english, unless you complement it with a phrase like "of the arts" the word "lover" is going to have an overtone of sexual relationship. there is no surprise here, but it is worthwhile to see that standard greek usage *does* show up in the translations from the hebrew! :-) more interestingly, and some confirmation of my guess that later koine usage avoided the verb _erao:_ because of its homonymy to _ero:_ (say), _eromai_ (ask), there is an error in codex vaticanus (normally, a very valuable witness) where a form of _erao:_ is used in a completely absurd context -- 2 samuel 20:18, where the meaning *must* be "say." in addition to the above (and the uses i have already mentioned in proverbs), esther 2:17 uses the verb in its most natural application, kai e:rasthe" ho basileus esthe:r -- and the king loved esther and, rather more interestingly, 1 samuel 19:2 supplies a modest degree of support to the gay appraisal of the relationship of david and jonathan: kai io:nathan huios saoul e:[i]reito ton dauid sphodra -- and jonathan, saul's son, loved david intensely [ i'm using the bracketed [i] for io:ta subscript, which i don't yet have a reasonable ascii convention for. ] (the relevance of this to the gay issue is not anything implicit about the "historical" facts, but just that a quasi-official translation of the hebrew text in the hellenistic period makes no bones about using the "erotic" verb in this context. given the quite general usage of _agapao:_ for erotic senses, this need not mean anything "more" than _agapao:_ alone would mean, but it does disambiguate the relationship, as far as this translator goes!) michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 : > i believe with everything in my heart that on may 3, 1993, the city of : >portland, oregon in the country of the united states of america will be hit : >with a catastrophic and disastrous earthquake... : by now, we know that this did not come to pass.... surprise, surprise. i sure didn't lose any sleep over it, and i live there. mistakes in this area are costly and dangerous. for me, my greatest fears in this area would be the following:[..] 4--were god to call me to be a prophet and i were to misrepresent god's word, my calling would be lost forever. god's word would command the people never to listen to or fear my words as i would be a false prophet. my bridges would be burnt forever. perhaps i could repent and be saved, but i could never again be a prophet of god. suppose someone said that he was sure that he would return from death, in glory and power, flying in the clouds with the host of heaven,soon, within the lifetimes of those then standing with him - and 2000 years went by without any such event. [he also asserted, so they say, himself to be god.] 2 questions: 1) is that one of those "false prophecies" you were talking about? 2) does that make the speaker a false prophet? speak directly. if the lord has given you something to say, say it. but, before i declare "thus sayeth the lord", i'd better know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that i am in the correct spiritual condition and relationship with the lord to receive such a prophecy and be absolutely certain, again, without the tiniest shadow of a doubt that there is no possibility of my being misled by my own imaginations or by my hope of gaining recognition or of being misled by the wiles of the devil and his followers. uhh, has it occurred to you that there is no way to know any of these things, for certain, "without the tiniest shadow of a doubt"? that people who thought they did have also been deluded? those of us who believe in actually being able to _check_ our opinions have an out - we can check against some external reality. those who assert that beliefs entertained without evidence, or even despite evidence have a special virtue (ie. "faith") are out of luck -- and this is the it's time that we christians give an example of honesty that stands out in contrast against this backdrop of falsehood. when we say, "thus sayeth the lord", it happens. when we pray, prayer is answered because we prayed right. when we say we're christians, we really mean it. you want to demonstrate christian honesty? great. start with the prophecy above - what can we conclude about the speaker? 
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 i am going to stop reading the homosexuality posts, at least for a while, because of the repeated seemingly personal attacks on me via post/e-mail(mainly e-mail). if anyone has a specific comment, suggestion, and/or note that does not contain any name calling, etc. that they would like for me to read, send it to me via e-mail. i would like a copy of file mentioned by the moderator ragarding the exergetical issue of it. i attempted to get it via ftp but was in christ's love, 
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 this paragraph brought to mind a question. how do you (mormons) reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ's statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage (luke, chapt. 20)? here is the short answer: because only certain marriages are recorded in heaven. now for the long answer: in doctrine and covenants section 132, the chapter discussing eternal marriage (and, yes, plural marriage), the distinction between sealings under the priesthood and other marriages is revealed. when "the children of this world marry, or are given in marriage" when they receive "the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (luke 20:34-35). jesus was simply teaching that marriages "until death do you part" are not in force after death. however, the doctrine and covenants continues describing eternal marriage. d&c 132:19 and again, verily i say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the holy spirit of promise, by him who is anointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; ... [ shortened for brevity ai] and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exhaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. the lord told peter "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (matt 16:19). do you doubt that peter was given the power to perform sealings? peter thought so because he taught that husbands and wives were "heirs *together* of the grace of life" (1 peter 3:7). "in order to obtain the highest" (degree of celestial glory), a man must enter into this order of the priesthood" (d&c 131:2). when a man and wife are sealed they truly become "one flesh" because their eternal "increase" (destinies) are enjoined completely. our father has an eternal companion (and maybe more because of the plural marriage conditions of the law) who participated in our creation and is equally concerned with our progress here. there is no scriptural basis for this doctrine. if fact, the only mention of our mother is in one verse of a hymn written early in the history of the church: o my father i had learned to call thee father, through thy spirit from on high, but, until the key of knowledge was restored, i knew not why. in the heav'ns are parents single? no, the thought makes reason stare! truth is reason; truth eternal tells me i've a mother there. why don't we hear more about our mother? 1. because our father presides under priesthood authority (which is not a calling for her); 2. because we don't all (necessarily) have the same mother it would be confusing for worship; 3. because our father wishes to withhold her name and titles because of how some people degrade sacred things. a idler 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21689">
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 everywhere we see and hear about christianity (due to its evangalistic nature). witnessing, spreading the gospel, etc. but what i want to know is... "why should i (or anyone else) become a christian?" (in twenty five words or less). zeros and ones will take us there.... peace. plastic. 1993. [we've had enough discussions about evidence recently that it would probably be best to respond via email. --clh] 
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 indeed, lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children's sins if they have failed to bring them up properly (cf. d&c 68:25-28 hi bruce. how do you reconcile this practice with ezekiel 18? ezekiel 18:20 "the soul who sins is the one who will die. the son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." actually in d&c 68:25-28 the parents are being held accountable for their own sins. specifically they are accountable for their failure to teach their children properly. if i fail to teach my children that stealing is wrong then i am responsible for their theft if they later indulge in such behavior. this is very similar to the instructions ezekiel was given in eze 3:18. if ezekiel failed to do his duty and warn the wicked, not only would the wicked die in his sins but the lord would hold ezekiel responsible! similarly parents are responsible to teach their children right from wrong. i suspect most christians (and jews etc.) would agree that parents have this responsibility. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21697">
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 way.qub.ac.uk writes (single angle brackets): jesus is talking with the apostles and they ask him why the pharisees say that before the messiah can come elijah must first come. jesus replies that elijah has come, but they did not recognize him. it then says that the apostles perceived that he was referi to john the baptist. this seems to me to clearly imply reincarnation. this was a popular belief in the judaism of jesus` time, that elijah would return again (as he had been taken in to heaven in a chariot and did not actually die). however jesus was referring to john the baptist not in the sense that elijah was reincarnated as john (remember elijah didn`t die) but that john was a similar prophet to elijah. > there is no question of similarity in jesus indication about john. the passage in matthew is very direct. where luke (1:17) reports the angel gabriel prophesying that john will go before christ "in the power and spirit of elias", in matthew 11: 14, jesus himself says of john, "and if you care to accept it, he himself is elijah, who was to come". it is interesting that jesus prepended the words, "if you care to accept it", as if to say that the implications of this truth, namely of rein- carnation, i will not force on you, but for those who can accept it, here it is. a jewish poster to other newsgroups on jewish esotericism and other topics has outlined the esoteric, cabbalistic jewish teaching of of reincarnation and karma, a teaching that is little known among jews today, but which is apparently widespread enough in israel that hannah hurnard ("hinds feet on high places") was told about it by a rabbi she was trying to convert back in the 1940s as a missionary in palestine. thus there may well have been a small number of jews who knew about this, whereas the large number of people did not. the statement of jesus about john, the greatest human personality in the new testament, is guarded but nevertheless quite direct. again, the subject of reincarnation, one way or another, is not a subject of the new testament, nor is the fate in general of the human being between death and the last judgement. but there are occasional indications that point to it. as for the "popular belief" that elijah would come again, it was more than a popular belief, as jesus confirms it in more than one place, and he never corrected those who were expecting elijah -- for example, those who thought that jesus himself be he. gerry palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21698">
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 gerry palo wrote that there is nothing in christianity that excludes the theory of a succession of lives. i wrote that the apostle paul, in romans 9, speaks of god as choosing jacob over esau, and adds that this is not as a result of anything that either child had done, since they had not been born clearly, paul does not believe that they had had previous lives, nor does he suppose that his readers will believe it. for if they had had previous lives, it would not make sense to say, "neither of them has done anything good or bad as yet, since they are not yet born." paul's statement only asserts that that particular choice was not a matter of karmic fulfillment of the past, just as the fate of the man born blind (john 9) was not. there is no question here of the simplistic idea of karma as a machine that is the sole determiner of one's destiny. even the eastern traditions, or many of them, do not say that, as one knowledgeable poster pointed out. and if in fact that paul did not know about or believe in reincarnation does not say anything one way or another about it. even john the baptist, who jesus says emphatically is elijah (matt 11:14), does not appear to have been aware of it, at least at the point at which he was asked. but it is interesting that his threefold denial -- to the question whether he is the christ, the prophet (i.e. isaiah), or elijah, is emphatic in the first case and very weak in the third. i would like to add once again that, while it is important to discuss the different passages that may point directly to the teaching of repeated earth lives, one way or another, what i really see as important in our time is that the subject be revisited in terms of the larger view of christianity and christian doctrine. for the most part, those who do accept it either reject the central ideas of christianity or, if they are christians, hold their conviction as a kind of separate treasure. i believe that christianity has important new understanding to bring to bear on it, and vice versa, much that is central to christianity takes on entirely new dimensions of meaning in light of repeated earth lives. it has a direct bearing on many of the issues frequently discussed in this newsgroup in particular. i have said openly that i have developed my views of repeated earth lives largely from the work of rudolf steiner. not that i hold him as an authority, but the whole picture of christianity becomes clearer in light of these ideas. steiner indicated that the old consciousness of reincar- nation necessarily had to fade away that it could be renewed in later times, after a time of development of the christ idea through the first two millenia after christ's deed on golgotha. in our own time, it becomes important that, having received the basic gospel of salvation, our understanding of life and of the human being can now grow to embrace the significance of this idea. for the discussions in this newsgroup, i have tried to focus on that which can be related as directly as possible to scripture and to fundamental christian teaching and tradition. gerry palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 
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 persons interested in the tongues question are are invited to peruse an essay of mine, obtainable by sending the message get tongues notrans to listserv@asuacad.bitnet or to listserv@asuvm.inre.asu.edu james kiefer 
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 seeing as how _the_two_babylons_ has been brought up again, it is time for me to respond , once again, and say that this book is junk. it is nothing more that an anti-catholic tract of the sort published ever since the there were protestants. its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious. i have not seen this book, though i have had several people quote it in support of some tendentious assertions they were making, so i have become curious about it. i don't want to malign this hislop fellow, whoever he may be, as i have only heard the arguments at second hand, but both of the arguments seemed to turn on false etymology that seemed to be derived from hislop. i would be interested in knowing more about these things. the first one claimed that the word "church" was derived from the greek "cyclos", and that it was therefore related to the worship of "circe". i don't know if hislop is the source of this assertion, but it does seem to be based on false etymology. the second claimed an etymological relationship between "ishtar" and "easter", which seemed to be even more fanciful and far-fetched than some of the wilder notions of the british israelites. regarding the latter, as far as i have been able to find out, "easter" is derived from the old english name for april - "eosturmonath". the venerable bede mentioned that this was associated with a goddess called "eostre", but apart from that reference i have not been able to find out anything more about her. it also seems that the term "easter" is only used by the english and those they evangelized. the germans, for example, also use the term "ostern", but germany was evangelized by english missionaries. so i would be interested in any evidence of "easter" being used for pascha by people who do not have any kind of connection with the ancient anglo- saxons and their offshoots. such evidence might support the claims of those who appear to derive the theory from hislop. steve hayes, department of missiology & editorial department univ. of south africa, p.o. box 392, pretoria, 0001 south africa internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za fidonet: 5:7101/20 steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org faq: missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa 
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 aside to the moderator: <see below...> i won't quote any of it, but there are several errors in the article. not things that are just differences of opinion, but the writer just plain has his facts confused. for example, kip mckean was *asked* to come to the lexington church by the leaders there. he brought no team. he actually had been in charleston, il up to that point. he had many friends, even leaders in gainesville, telling him not to go, because people in the northeast weren't "open" and he'd be wasting his time and talents. really!! (this fact was a kind of "inside joke" at one point after the church in boston took off so well... not open, indeed!) ;-) i could take it on point by point, but i am not in a position to know one way or the other about some things in the article. i just wanted to point out that it contains misinformation. mark wuest | *my* opinions, not at&t's!! mdw@violin.hr.att.com (sun mailtool ok) | mdw@trumpet.hr.att.com (next mail) | 
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 michael> the kind of interpretation i see as "incredibly perverse" is michael> that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket michael> equation of homosexual behavior and rape. since christians michael> citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have michael> at least read the story, it amounts to slander -- a charge michael> that homosexuality == rape -- to use that against us. michael> it is just michael> as wrong (though slightly less incendiary, so it's a michael> secondary argument from the 'phobic contingent) to equate michael> homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the michael> rape of god's messengers. let's review the sodom and gomorrah story briefly. it states clearly that the visitors were angels. but "all the men from every part of the city of sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. they called to lot, `where are the *men* who came to you tonight? bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.' " for the rest of the story the angels are referred to by the men of sodom and by lot as *men*. furthermore we know from gen 18:20,21 that the lord had already found sodom guilty of grievous sin--before the angels visited the city. it is clear that the grievous sin of sodom and gomorrah involved homosexual sex. it appears that the men had become so inflamed in their lust that they had group orgies in the public square--which simply indicates the extremity of their depravity. it does not show that lesser degrees of homosexuality are not sinful, as michael would have us ultimately our understanding of god's will for sexuality comes from the creation story--not solely on the story of sodom and gomorrah. he created us male and female, and instituted marriage as a relationship between one male and one female, "therefore a man will leave his father and mother, and be united with his wife, and they will become one flesh." this marriage relationship is the only sexual relationship which god blesses and sanctions. he regulates and protects the marriage of man and woman, and even uses it as a picture of the relationship between himself and his church. but we find not one word of blessing or regulation for a sexual relationship between two men, or between two women. everything else that we find in the bible about sexuality derives from or expresses god's will in instituting and blessing marriage. thus the levitical code, which was given only to the jews, forbade incest, homosexuality, bestiality; the ten commandments forbade adultery and the coveting of our neighbor's wife; other commandments forbade rape. the men of sodom and gomorrah were regarded as sexually immoral and perverse (jude 7) because they abandoned and/or polluted the marriage relationship. thus also paul regarded homosexuality as `unnatural', romans 1:26,27--not because this was simply paul's opinion, but because it was contrary to god's purpose in creating us male and female. michael> christians, no doubt very sincere ones, keep showing up here michael> and in every corner of usenet and the world, and all they michael> ever do is spout these same old verses (which they obviously michael> have never thought about, maybe never even read), in total michael> ignorance of the issues raised, slandering us with the vilest michael> charges of child abuse or whatever their perfervid minds can michael> manage to conjure up, tossing out red herrings with (they michael> suppose) great emotional force to cause readers to dismiss michael> our witness without even taking the trouble to find out what michael> it is. really, have you no better response to `slander' than more david h. wagner "the day is surely drawing near a confessional lutheran when god's son, the annointed, shall with great majesty appear as judge of all appointed. all mirth and laughter then shall when flames on flames will still as scripture truly teacheth." --"es ist gewisslich an der zeit" v. 1 --bartholomaeus ringwaldt, 1586 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21705">
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 seeing as how _the_two_babylons_ has been brought up again, its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious. c. wingate maybe you should dig a little further charles. hislop's scholarship was accepted by the bristish oriental institute which, at the time, was the premere institute for oriental studies. as i've stated over and over, i've checked out about 25% of his references (most are now out of print or in private libraries) and the likes of wilkerson and layard hold their own merit. they too came to the same conclusions and if you will trouble yourself, you will find that their knowledge of the mysteries have yet to be surpassed. both were highly honored by the british oriental museum. wilkerson is known as one of the leading archeologist in the history of egyptiology and layard is still being refered two after 200 yrs of archeology in the mesopotamian regions. he was recently refered to in a time article on babylonian archeology. phony scholarship is when you review their references and find that they have misquoted or misrepresented the conclusions. hislop did not. his conclusions do not tickle the ears, that much is self evident. but to assert that his conclusions are "spurious" is without merit. he gave references to all his conclusions and as i have stated, for the last 25 years i have used his conclusions in debates at rc seminaries and brotherhoods, not to mention the individual priests and bishops that i have talked to one on one. no counter to hislops scholarship was made. the only rebuttals were against his conclusions because they do totally undermined the claims of the rcc. he was showing that the intitution of the rcc was based on the mysteries (which others have shown even to this day in various articles and topics). the tongues movement in corinth was a direct result of the mysteries entering into the church. if it was so in corinth, why could they not have an influence in rome, the city of seven hills? also, you do not have to listen to his conclusions, you can draw your own conclusions by looking at the customs, artifacts, the cerimonial dress, the docrine of purgatory, etc from the vantage of the mysteries. you don't even have to be a believer to see the parallels. just one example. the mitre. where did it come from? why is it shaped the way it is? what are the two tails that hang down the back represent? was this an ancient head dress from an earlier culture and why was it in rome at the time of the beginnings of the church of the state of rome? does it have pagan history behind it, and if so, why did the rcc chose regardless? any lay person of middle eastern religion can answer these questions. even the scriptures themselves refer to it. all hislop did was collect the information from all the various sources and put them in one binding. there is no lack of scholorship in that. please tell me why you discredit this man by your accusation, yet present no evidence supporting it. --rex 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21706">
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 [much deleted] point today might be the masons. (just a note, that they too worshipped osiris in egypt...) [much deleted] it bugs me when i see this kind of nonsense. first, there is no reasonable evidence linking masonry to ancient egypt, or even that it existed prior to the late 14th century (and there's nothing definitive before the 17th). [i'm going to cut "rex"'s ramblings down a bit.] you must not be past your 20th level. you should read wilkinson's egyptians and how he shows this egyptian religion paralleling his own british masonry. there is a man here at this laboratory who is a 33 degree black mason. i've talked with him, [...] there is the public side with motorcyle mania and childrens hospitals and then there is the priviate side that only the highest degree mason every learns of. rex, there are literally hundreds of thousands of 32nd degree masons in this country, and thousands of 33rds. if nasty stuff was really going on, don't you think you'd have more than a couple of disgruntled members "exposing" it? heck, if what you say is true, then rev. norman vincent peale is an osiris worshiper. long quote from someone named hislop (source not given) deleted. i'm attempting to extract from it the relevent points: * osiris is actually nimrod, a babylonian deity. * "it is admitted that the secret system of free masonry was originally founded on the mysteries of the egyptian isis, the goddess-mother, or wife of osiris." * the babylonian nimrod and osiris are both connected with the building trade, ie, with masonry. * nimrod, as the son of cush, was a negro. [isn't this refering to a biblical nimrod, rather than the babylonian god?] * ...there was a tradition in egypt, recorded by plutarch, that 'osiris was black'. there is a long tradition in masonry of claiming ancient lineage for the order, on the flimsiest of grounds. this dates right back to the constitutions of 1738, which cite adam as the first mason. i've seen other claims which place masonry among the romans, greeks, and egyptians, and atlanteans. i even have a book which claims to prove that stonehenge was originally a masonic temple. claims prove nothing. where's the beef, rex? [...claims ex-mason showed him leopard skin he wore in lodge] any representation of osiris usually show the wearing of some leopard. i'd have to check this. the tomb paintings i remember don't show it is interesting that the druids of britian also show, or should i say hide, this representation. they, however, worshipped the "spotted cow". can you give ancient citations for this? the druids were suppressed over 2000 years ago. what's your point? this whole "leopard skin" business sounds bizarre. i have not yet gone through the scottish rite (which contains all of those "higher degrees" anti-masons get so excited about, and which was invented in the 1750's), but i know enough people who have (and who are good christians), that i reject your claim. i'll stand by my statements. masonry is of the "mystery" religions that all find their source in babylon, the great harlot. sorry peter, i do not mean to be a "cold slap to the face" but there is to much not so much a 'slap in the face' as 'a weary feeling of deja vu'. i'm going through a very similar argument over on soc.culture.african.american. evidence to the contrary that masonry doesn't find its origins in egypt. of the masons i have personally talked to, all refered to egypt as their origin. why don't you try reading some serious books on masonic history, such as hamill's "the craft"? why are you now separating yourself from this which not many years ago, was freely admitted? because we got honest. if you can come up with actual evidence that masonry existed prior to 1390, i'd be very impressed (actually, anything earlier than 1630 would be pretty good.) peter trei ptrei@mitre.org disclaimer: i do not speak for my employer. 
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 q. should teenagers have the freedom to choose what church they go to? my friends teenage kids do not like to go to church. if left up to them they would sleep, but that's not an option. they complain that they have no friends that go there, yet don't attempt to make friends. they mention not respecting their sunday school teacher, and usually find a way to miss sunday school but do make it to the church service, (after their parents are thoroughly disgusted) i might add. a never ending battle? it can just ruin your whole day if you let it. has anyone had this problem and how did it get resolved? 
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 it was the manifestation of the spirit among the gentiles that convinced peter (acts 10) that his prejudice against them (based on scripture, i might add) was not in accordance with god's intentions. i would just like to point out that the particular command not to eat or fellowship with gentiles is not found in the old testament. this was part of the "hedge built around the law." it was a part of peter's tradition, and not the scripture. link hudson. 
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 fred gilham asks (may 11) whether it is true that kurt goedel wrote a version of the ontological argument for the existence of god. yes, he did. he did not publish it, but it will be published by the oxford university press in german and with english translation in volume 3, due to appear this fall, of his collected works. meanwhile, you can find a summary, or perhaps the whole thing, in an article by jordan howard sobel called "goedel's ontological proof" in the book on being and saying, edited by judith jarvis thompson (sp?), published by the mit press in 1987. professor c anthony anderson of the philosophy department of the university of minnesota has written an article, "some emendations of goedel's ontological proof," which appeared in the magazine faith and philosophy, v. 7 (1990): 291-303. it discusses some objections that various critics have raised against goedel's proof, and offers a revised version of the proof that is not vulnerable to these james kiefer 
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 in <may.13.02.31.16.1993.1569@geneva.rutgers.edu> djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu ok, what's more important to gay christians? sex, or christianity? i'm afraid i see that question as very tendentious. try rephrasing it: what's more important to christians? love of god or love of other human beings? to which of course the only conceivable answer is that the one is like the other. i am *deeply* suspicious of any "flavor" of christianity which would elevate one clause of the great commandment to a "priority" over the other such as to claim a conflict. true, we are told to let the dead bury the dead, to "hate" family rather than let it keep us from following christ. but the dichotomy here is not one between love of our fellows and love of god, but of allowing *social* constructs to blind us to the presense of god. it is particularly satanic to twist love of god in such a manner as to become an excuse to treat others as on a different level than the one who is so caught up in "love" of god. the trouble comes in the relation of human love and human sex. yes, it has sometimes been the case that the church has "taught" that all sex was nasty, evil, sinful stuff. but when man and wife leave their parental homes to become helpmates, living in one flesh, it is the sex that is the vehicle of becoming "one flesh" (if you doubt me, read st. paul on what is wrong with frequenting prostitutes :-)). less provocatively, what i mean is just this: sexual bonding is a deeply founded aspect of our social interaction, and in particular is the foundation of the institution of marriage, so that unlike with many mammals, human males remain with and foster the children they beget and support their children's mothers. this is the schema behind genesis 2:18-24 (and behind jesus' citation of that passage.) [ i observe, by the way, that not all human males in fact do as i have just described; but another thing that characterizes human societies is our raising of *non*begotten children, not only orphans and adoptees and the like, but products of the quite common infidelities of humans to their spouses. we are in this not unique in the animal world, but the full extent of social consequences and implications is most intricate for us. ] yes, of course it sometimes goes "wrong" -- like all else we do, it is infected with sin, and you find married "couples" where there is no bond, and people so deliriously addicted to the initial stages of sexual bond formation (the "infatuation", "falling in love" phase) that they break any forming bond in order to keep stepping over the threshold of the deep unity god has prepared for us, and stepping back out again right away. satan may indeed *use* sex as a very handy tool to corrupt human love -- but in the edenic creation, that is not its nature, and with god's grace under the power of christ to make all things new it need not be a problem for christians (though we must be vigilant, even in christ, as the devil is watchful, prowling around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour.) so, returning to the original question, what is more important to straight christians? sex, or christianity? paul, clearly, tended to think that sex was at best a distraction from christianity (though to be charitable to him, his context was in expectation of immediate parousia, so that the hard tasks of a married union -- the lifelong building and adaptation to each other -- seemed somehow to undercut the "proper" preparation for an immediate eschaton. since we *do not* know the hour of return, we should act *both* with instant readiness for that *and* with a commitiment to our mates that proposes a long lifetime together. and telling people *not* to bond in such a perspective strikes me as crippling us in the second clause of the the commandment to love. i would claim that only a very few saints have the capacity to deeply love (without sexual tinges or complication, mind you) their fellow human beings unless they have had a deeply spiritual life in married union growing together as one flesh -- and that means in the type case, with a persistent and continued sexual relationship. we are human, and little good comes of trying to "mortify the flesh" to the point of pretending to be otherwise, pretending not to be sexual beings. christianity i would hope. would they be willing to forgo sex completely, in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others, it depends entirely on context. if that context is major hypocrisy on the part of those who find us "stumbling blocks" i am much less of a mind to efface myself so that they can pontificate about my sins. there are some people for whom a life of celibacy is a spritual gift, and maybe even a victory against a to-them troubling sexual urge that seems to them to lead only to sin. nothing i say should ever be read as demeaning such a gift. nor the even rarer gift of love for all our conspecifics, and indeed for all god's creation, that can develop to the full *without* the tutoring of a spousal/helpmate marriage founded in sex. but there is a difference between spiritual gifts and penance; telling people that they have to have a particular gift (or else? what?) is fraught with manipulation and disregard of the differences of our spiritual endowments from god. to one person is given the gift of speaking in toungues, to another intepretation of toungues; to yet another prophecy; and to still another teaching. the notion that some *particular* gift is required of *all* is one of the earliest heresies. michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 [anyway, your argument seems to be saying, "if _i_ were god, i certainly wouldn't do things that way; therefore, god doesn't do things that way."] i would never have the audacity to say such a thing. my argument says only that i do not understand. 
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 | > mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at | > lourdes. she referred to herself as the immaculate conception. | > since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the | > doctrine, the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed | > the case for the doctrine. |bernadette was 14 years old when she had her visions, in 1858, |four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the |pope. | yours, | james kiefer i forgot exactly what her age was but i remember clearly that she was born in a family of poverty and she did not have any education, whatsoever, at the age of the apparitions. she suffered from asthma at that age and she and her family were living in an abandoned prison cell of some sort. she had to ask the 'lady' several times in her apparitions about what her name was since her confessor priest asked her to do so. for several instances, the priest did not get an answer since bernadette did not receive any. one time, after several apparitions passed, the lady finally said, "i am the immaculate conception". so, bernadette, was so happy and repeated these words over and over in her mind so as not to forget it before she told the priest who was asking. so, when she told the priest, the priest was shocked and asked bernadette, "do you know what you are talking about?". bernadette did not know what exactly it meant but she was just too happy to have the answer for the priest. the priest continued with, "how did you remember this if you do not know?". bernadette answered honestly that she had to repeat it over and over in her mind while on her way to the priest... the priest knew about the dogma being four years old then. but bernadette did not know and yet she had the answer which the priest finally observed and took as proof of an authentic personal revelation of our lady to bernadette. (note: this lady of lourdes shrine has a spring of water which our lady requested bernadette to dig up herself with her bare hands in front of pilgrims. at the start little water flowed but after several years there is more water flowing.) "...spreading god's words through actions..." -mother teresa 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21719">
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 hi everyone, i'm trying to find my way to god, but find it difficult as i can't hear god talking to me, letting me know that he exists and is with me and that he knows me, and i feel that i can't possibly get to know him until he does. maybe he _is_ talking to me but i just don't know or understand how to listen. some christians tell me that (in their opinion) the only way to find god is to take a plunge and commit your life to him, and you will discover. this idea of diving into the totally unknown is a little bit frightening, but i have a few questions. 1) how do you actually commit yourself? if i just say, "ok god, her you go, i'm committing my life to you", i wouldn't really feel that he'd listened - at least, i couldn't be sure that he had. so how does one (or how did you) commit oneself to god? 2) in committing myself in this way, what do i have to forfeit of my current life? what can i no longer do? i feel that i'm as 'good' as many christians, and i try to uphold the idea of 'loving your neighbour' - i don't go round killing people, stealing, etc., and i try not to get jealous of other people in any way - and i would say that i keep to the standards of treating other people as well as many christians. so what do i have to give up? 3) when committed, what do i have to do? what does it involve? what (if any) burdens am i taking on? 4) so then, what's the general difference before and after? i assume, that (like on your birthday you don't suddenly feel a year older) it won't suddenly change my life the day i commit myself. so what happens? 5) how can i be sure that it is the right thing to do? how can i find out what the 'it' in the last sentence actually _is_?! thanks very much for all your help in answering these questions. perhaps e-mail would be a better way to reply, but it's up to you. <benha@castle.ed.ac.uk> <janet:benha@uk.ac.ed.castle> (20 year-old at university in scotland) 
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 "raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents, mason was beaten as a child. he once was were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with "raised in oakland by mexican parents, mason was beaten...", my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and although i'm neither fundamentalist nor evangelical, i have often noticed this trend in the media. in short, it is permissable to bash fundamentalists. no need to substitue a nationality such as "mexican..." try simply to substitute a different religion "...raised by muslim parents," or "...raised by jewish parents..." the paper simply would not do this. i have noticed that newspapers don't even know what a fundamentalist is; at the least, they confuse new evangelicals and fundamentalists. in this news group, the liberals don't even know what a fundamentalist is (crying out "legalist" at anyone who believes and obeys god's word). a fundamentalist would train their children in the way god proscribes, not in the way that man proscribes. this would not include life threatening beatings but would include corporal punishment. to the liberals, i cry out infidel at anyone who does not believe god's word. signature follows: "your statutes are wonderful: therefore i obey them." psalm 119:129 david l. hanson any opinions expressed are my own! [as most people here know, i believe fundamentalist is sufficiently ill-defined that i advise using some more specific term. i think many people use it to cover people who believe in inerrancy and a number of related concepts (e.g. denial of evolution). while the original fundamentals movement was somewhat more specific, i would think most people who accept inerrancy would actually support the whole original agenda. (it included a list of key traditional doctrines, e.g. the virgin birth.) the term is now being used by the press to describe aggressive conservative religions in general, most typically those who are attempting to legislate religion. legalism is yet another ill-defined term. however there is some reason for its use in this context. in fact the common theological definition is the believe that salvation is through the law. i hope no one here believes that our conservative contributors hold this view. however there is a basic difference in approach over what we expect to get out of the bible. the conservative approach expects to find specific behavioral rules. generally the posters advocating this approach talk about the relevant passages from paul's letter as god's law. the liberal approach expects to find general principles, but it regards specific behavioral rules subject to change depending upon the culture and other things. it's easy to see why a liberal would regard the conservative approach as legalism. it's hard to know quite what other term to use. the issue in this case is not inerrancy, because no one is saying that paul made a factual error. rather, the question is whether his statements are to be taken as law. calling the positive answer legalism seems obvious enough terminology. i haven't seen any good alternative. --clh] 
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 |> >anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should |> >check out dignity, integrity, more light presbyterian churches, affirmation, |> >mcc churches, etc. meet some gay christians, find out who they are, pray |> >with them, discuss scripture with them, and only *then* form your opinion. |> if you were to start your own religion, this would be fine. but there |> is no scriptural basis for your statement, how about acts 11: 15-18, 22-23 or, i john 4:1-8 which says to *try* the spirits to see if they be of god. |> in fact it really gets to the heart of the problem. |> you think you know more than scripture. |> your faith is driven by feel goodism and not by the word of god. how do you know? when have you tried to learn anything about me? *dr. ann b. carlson (a.b.carlson@larc.nasa.gov) * o . *ms 366 * o _///_ // *nasa langley research center * <`)= _<< *hampton, va 23681-0001 * \\\ \\ 
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 we are all still human. we don't know it all, but homosexual or heterosexual, we all strive to follow jesus. the world is dying and needs to hear about jesus christ. gaining entry into heaven cannot be done without first being cleansed by the blood of jesus. sin cannot dwell in heaven. it is against the natural laws of god. being converted to christianity means being baptized by the holy spirit. you cannot get to heaven by good works only. because of the union with the holy spirit, the man's behavior will change. if there is true union he will not desire to be homosexual. fornication and homosexuality will leave your life if you are truly baptized by the holy spirit. it's not to say that we don't stumble now and then. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21723">
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 i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin. was mary fully human? if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin, and free of committing sin their whole life, then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus? why can't god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless, without the need for repentance and salvation and all that? yes, mary is fully human. however, that does not imply that she was just as subject to sin as we are. catholic doctrine says that man's nature is good (gen 1:31), but is damaged by original sin (rom 5:12-16). in that case, being undamaged by original sin, mary is more fully human than any of the rest of us. you ask why god cannot "repeat the miracle" of mary's preservation from original sin. a better way to phrase it would be "why _did_ he not" do it that way, but you misunderstand how mary's salvation was obtained. like ours, the blessed virgin mary's salvation was obtained through the merits of the sacrifice of christ on the cross. however, as god is not bound by time, which is his creation, god is free to apply his sacrifice to anyone at any time, even if that person lived before christ came to earth, from our time-bound perspective. therefore, christ's death and resurrection still served a necessary purpose, and were necessary even for mary's salvation. steve creps, indiana university creps@lateran.ucs.indiana.edu 
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 [referring to mary] she was immaculately conceived, and so never subject to original sin, but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life. this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god. skipping...... i don't particularly object to the idea of the assumption, or the perpetual virginity (both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ), and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus, but this concept of mary's sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it. the catholic church has an entirely different view of mary than do "most" other christian churches (those with parallel beliefs notwithstanding). christ, by most accounts, is the only sinless person to ever live. i too, have trouble with a sinless mary concept just. as for the related issue of the "original" sin - only adam and eve will answer for that one. my children do not answer for my sins, certainly i only answer for mine. larry autry silicon graphics, st. louis autry@sgi.com 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21725">
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 [referring to mary] she was immaculately conceived, and so never subject to original sin, but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life. this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god. i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin. was mary fully human? if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin, and free of committing sin their whole life, then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus? why can't god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless, without the need for repentance and salvation and all that? i don't particularly object to the idea of the assumption, or the perpetual virginity (both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ), and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus, but this concept of mary's sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it. if you don't agree with joseph's accurate statement of the catholic dogma of mary's perpetual sinlessness, then how do you interpret luke 1:28, and when the angel had come to her, he said, "hail, full of grace, the lord is with thee. blessed art thou among women." and luke 1:48? ...for, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. i suppose that these verses might be interpreted to mean that mary was possessed of some limited quantity or quality of grace, just as some of us are, but it seems to me that "full of grace" means just what it says: filled to the brim, incapable of containing more. the only other people we know of who have an abundance of grace are those souls existing in heaven now (another catholic dogma, based on the communion of saints, as i explained in an earlier post). full of grace to me means sinless, and anyone who has ever sinned in his life cannot be without sin in the same sense as mary was sinless. as a catholic, i too find certain of the dogmas tough to embrace. but that's where the catholic faith and prayer come into play. i pray god to strengthen my will to accept the faith given the bride of christ, which in turn usually strengthens my community faith in his church. and, as you probably know, faith in christ's church is tantamount to faith in christ inasmuch as the church is christ's mystical body. a catholic by nature must have two aspects to his faith in christ: (1) a personal faith in christ as his own personal redeemer and (2) a community faith in the church as the body of christ. randal lee nicholas mandock gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu [you might want to check the greek. "full of grace" translates a single word that simply means "favored", or perhaps more literally, "graced". the "full" is a vestige of the specific translation you're using. --clh] 
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 hello everyone. i just wanted to let everyone know that i have just been selected as part of the reduction in force here at amdahl. for all that are currently in a dialog with me, or are waiting letters from me, i have saved your letters on floppy and will continue when i get back on the net from another account in the future. for those who are on the genie network, my email address there is: t.rose1 god bless and goodbye until then. if you want to continue dialogs with me via us mail, i can be contacted at: tony rose c/o jude 3 missions p.o. box 1035 felton, ca 95018 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21730">
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 (dear moderator: would you add this to the bcc faq?) in case there are any ex-members of the "boston church of christ" looking for a support organization, here's the number of "bostonex" in burlington, ma: 617-272-1955. s.r.c readers in new england may be interested in seeing a series of news reports about the bcc in the 6 pm nightly news on channel 5 (wcvb, boston), for the next few days (starting wed, 5/19). for viewers outside the boston area, the same telecasts will also be aired on the "new england cable news" channel at 8 pm. 
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 the blessed virgin mary appeared to catherine laboure, a nun of the sisters of charity on july 18, 1830 at rue du bac, paris. sister catherine was awakened late that night by a small boy, age 5 or 6, who was literally glowing with some sort of interior light. the child led her to the sanctuary of the chapel where he promised the virgin mary was to be found awaiting her. our lady appeared to her and instructed her for two hours or more on matters pertaining to her life and to the future of france and the world. on november 27 our lady appeared again to catherine. she instructed her to have a medal struck. she told her that those who wore this medal would enjoy special protection from the mother of god and would receive great graces. in less than a year there were three more apparitions. in june of 1831 the medals were a reality. many reports were received by those who wore it. within two years of its issuing the medal was known as the "miraculous medal". catherine died in 1876. her body to this day is remarkably preserved (incorrupt). she was canonized on july 27, 1947. her body lies in the chapel at the motherhouse on the rue du bac where she had her first meeting with our lady. the apparition on november 27 1830 was of average height and clothed in white with a veil that flowed over the head and fell to the floor. above the altar, a pyramid painted to represent god's all knowing wisdom looked down on them. our lady's feet rested on a white globe and there was also a green serpent with yellow spots that she was stepping on. in her hands was a golden ball that represented the world. great streams of light issued from her hands and she also showed catherine an image of two hearts, the sacred heart wrapped in piercing thorns and her own heart punctured by a sword. the sword represented her suffering with jesus. the apparitions announced the onset of the great battle and forewarned that a dark era lay in the immediate future. it was the apparition leading up to the recent ones. our lady began to dispense secrets. and with the globe she revealed herself in worldwide dispute with the forces of the dark. she told catherine "the times are evil. misfortunes will fall upon france. the throne will be overturned. the entire world will be overcome by evils of all kinds." refer to books on st. catherine for more of our lady's messages. a copy of the medal is also available in catholic bookstores. i will post other marian events every few days or so including the ones happening today which are still under investigation. these postings serve only to introduce you to these events. please look more into them and understand the reason for the increasing number and urgency of these apparitions. mark ashley |disclaimer: my opinions. not harris' marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com | the lost los angelino | 
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 it is also noteworthy to consider jesus' attitude. he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon (john 10.31-6), and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law, prophets and psalms which referred to him - the ot division of scripture (luke 24.44), as well as in luke 11.51 taking genesis to chronicles (the jewish order - we would say genesis to malachi) as scripture. you should remember that in adam's transgression, all men and women sinned, as paul wrote. all of humanity cooperativley reblled against god in adma's sin, thus, all are subject to it, and the sin is transmitted from generation to generation. andy byler] andy, i did not write the above paragraph. i believe this is about the 3rd time someone else's words have been attributed to me. i can't speak for the rest of humanity, but i did not cooperatively rebell against anything. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21734">
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 indeed, lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children's sins if they have failed to bring them up properly (cf. d&c 68:25-28; note that this passage applies it only to members of the lds church). i include the key verse (d&c 68:25) because others may not have the reference. "and again, inasmuch as parents have children in zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in christ the son of the living god, and of baptism and the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents." what is "the sin" of the parents? hi bruce. how do you reconcile this practice with ezekiel 18? ezekiel 18:20 "the soul who sins is the one who will die. the son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." is ezekiel 18 not translated correctly in your eyes perhaps? ezekiel 18 teaches a correct principle. however, it assumes that fathers and sons have equal knowledge to prepare for the judgment. parents are responsible to teach their children the gospel and other life skills. should they fail to make a sufficient attempt to teach their children, the parent would be held responsible -- not for their children's sins, but for not teaching them properly. whenever the lord installs someone to a position of authority in either the family or the church he expects that person to teach those in his charge. in ezekiel 33:7-9 someone called to care for others is likened to "a watchman unto the house of israel." "if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will i require at thine hand. nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul." even though the d&c prefaces this commandment with "parents have children in zion" i believe all parents are responsible for teaching their children whatever good principles they understand. however, lds parents accept greater responsbility and could be judged more strictly. a idler 
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 when elizabeth greeted mary, elizabeth said something to the effect that mary, out of all women, was blessed. if so, it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity. i don't see how this logically follows. true enough, mary received a blessing beyond any granted in all the history of humanity by being privileged to be the mother of the savior. it says nothing about mary needing to be a "blessed person" _first_ in order that she might thereby be worthy to bear the son of god. again, i think the problem is that as humans we can't comprehend how the sinless incarnation could spring from sinful human flesh and god's spirit. rather than simply accept the gracious miracle of god, we must needs try to dope out a mechanism or rationale as to how this could be. mary's own "...my spirit rejoices in god _my savior_, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden,..." sound like the words of a human aware of her own humanity, in need of a savior, similar to what david proclaimed in his psalms...not the words of a holy being with no further need for god's grace. i really apologize for harping on this, i don't suppose it's important. it's just that i see mary and joseph and the baby reduced to placid, serene figurines i feel we lose the wonder in the fact that god chose to come down to you and i, to be born of people like you and i, to share our existence and redeem us from it's fallenness by his holy incarnation. paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens . 
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 protestants love to play up jerome for all he is worth. yes, but no more than he is worth. :-). seriously: jerome is merely (and grandly) another christian witness, to be taken for what he can tell us. he is one in the community of saints. you seem to wish for a greater polarization and dichotomy between catholic and protestant thought than seems to me, from a historical perspective, to be valid. to be sure, rome rejects (some significant aspects of) protestant thought just as vehemently as protestants reject (some significant aspects of) roman thought. other than some peoplw who apparently try to embody the greatest extreme of this rejection, on either side, there is not quite so vast a gulf fixed as casual observers seem to assume. ecumenical consultations between rome and the lutherans, as well as those between rome and the anglican communion (to which i belong) show very nearly complete convergence on understanding the basic theological issues -- the sticking points tend to be ecclesiology and church polity. thus, for example, as you go on to say: they should remeber that after the decree of pope st. damsus i, many of us do not regard a papal decretal as having any necessary (as opposed to political) significance. sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. you misread me if you think that my communion, at least, "throws out" the deuterocanonical books. nor do i think you should overstress the sense in which the more reformed may do so. again, why must the church of jesus christ adopt the canon of the unbelieving jews, drawn up in jamnia in 90 ad, in countering the christian use of the septuagint. ^^^^^ i seriously suggest you rethink what you are saying here. it verges on, and could be taken as, anti-semitic in the worst sense. the "unbelieving" jews were, according to what i understand as a christian, the chosen people of god, and the recipients of his pre-incarnational revelation. i think they have some say in the matter. the javneh meeting should not be over-interpreted. a recent magisterial study titled _mikra_ (i don't have more citation information on hand, sorry) produced primarily from the background of christian (rather than specifically jewish) scholarship suggests strongly that the javneh meeting mostly resolved a lingering question, where in practice the canon had long been fixed on the basis of the scrolls that were kept in the temple, and thereby "made the hands unclean" when used. the list of "sacred books" that may be drawn up from josephus and other pre-yavneh sources correspond (plus or minus one book, if i rememeber the chapter correctly) to the current jewish canon of tanakh. all of this is not to "throw out" the deuterocanonicals (what, by the way, is your position about the books the greeks accept and rome does not? :-)) -- just to observe that the issue is complex and simply binary judgment does not do it justice. andy byler michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 note: i am breaking this reply into 2 parts due to length. homosexual christians have indeed "checked out" these verses. some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations. others simply do not address the issues. i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues, there are exactly zero verses that "clearly" address the issues. i agree that there are no verses that have gone unchallenged by gay rights activists. but if there are zero verses that "'clearly' address the issues," doesn't that mean that there are also no verses that clearly *support* your case? are you sure you want to say that there are zero verses that clearly address the issues? however, a couple of them seem as though they do not require "incredibly perverse interpretations" in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality. the kind of interpretation i see as "incredibly perverse" is that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket equation of homosexual behavior and rape. since christians citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have at least read the story, it amounts to slander -- a charge that homosexuality == rape -- to use that against us. the story in genesis 19 tells of the citizens of sodom demanding an opportunity to "know" the two men who were lot's guests; the fact that the sodomites became angry when lot offered them his daughters could be seen as indicating that they were interested only in homosexual intercourse. yes, what they wanted was rape, homosexual rape, and everybody agrees that that is wrong. some christians believe that the homosexual aspect of their desire was just as sinful as the rape aspect of their desire. the passage does not say what it was that so offended god, whether it was the homosexuality, or the intended rape, or both, but i believe that it is only fair to consider all the possible alternatives in the light of related scriptures. i do not believe that those who believe god was offended by both the homosexuality and the rape are trying to say that homosexuality is itself a form of rape. you seems to take the view that the *only* sin described in gen. 19 is in the fact that the sodomites wanted to commit rape, and that it is unfair to "stigmatize" their homosexuality by associating it with the sin of rape. i can see how you might reach such a conclusion if you started from the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, but then again we're not supposed to start from our conclusions because that's circular reasoning. if god is in fact opposed to homosexual intercourse in general, then the more probably interpretation is that he was at least as offended by the sodomites' blatant homosexuality as he was by their intent to commit rape. later on i will document why i believe the old testament portrays god as one who despises *any* homosexual intercourse, even if both partners are consenting adults. "... do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of god. and such some of you..." i cor. 6:9-11. the moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of _porneia_ in this. the moderator found my proposal to be circular in that he regarded the church as the proper authority for determining what *kinds* of marriages would be legitimate, and thus the church's refusal to recognize "perverted" marriages was circular reasoning. my questions, however, had nothing to do with the church ordaining new kinds of marriages, and so his argument was something of a straw man. in terms of my original question, the precise definition/translation of "porneia" isn't really important, unless you are trying to argue that the bible doesn't really condemn extramarital sex. i'm not sure the moderator was trying to do that. in any case, i think both you and the moderator have missed the point here. when jesus was asked about divorce, he replied, "have you not read, that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh'? consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. what therefore god has joined together, let no man separate." (mt. 19:4-6). i read here that the sexual union of a man (male) and his wife (female) is a divinely-ordained union. in other words, the institution of heterosexual marriage is something ordained and established by god--not by men, and not by the church, but by god. men are not supposed to dissolve this union, in jesus' words, because it is not something created by men. this is not circular reasoning, this is just reading god's word. i read in the bible that god ordained the union of male and female. i do not read of any similar divinely-ordained union of two males or two females. granted, there have been uninspired men who have ordained "alternative" unions (isn't caligula reported to have "married" his horse?), but the only union that jesus refers to as "what god has joined together" is the heterosexual union of a man and his (pardon me for mentioning caligula. i know that's probably inflammatory, and i should save it for the discussion on bestiality, in part 2 of this post. please hold off on passing judgement on me until you have read that section of my reply.) anyway, my original question was not whether we should translate "porneia" in a way that condemns only a select few kinds of extramarital sex, my question was: given that heterosexual marriage is the only union described by the bible as divinely-ordained, and given a biblical prohibition against sex outside of marriage, is homosexual intercourse sinful? of course, i see now that first we need to ask whether the bible really condemns sex outside of marriage. you seem to be trying to argue that only certain kinds of extramarital sex (and other sins) are really wrong: i think we can all agree (with paul) that there are some kinds of activity that could be named by "fornication" or "theft" or "coveting" or "reviling" or "drunkenness" which would well deserve condemnation. we may or may not agree to the bounds of those categories, however; and the very fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at all "clear" but that paul -- an excellent rhetorician -- had no interest in making them clear, leaving matters rather to our spirit-led decisions, with all the uncomfortable living-with-other-readings that has dominated christian discussion of all these areas. alternatively, it may be that the definition of such terms as "porneia" and all the rest was, in paul's day, what we would call a faq; i.e. the law, as the "tutor" appointed by god to lead us to christ, had just spent some sixteen centuries drumming into the heads of god's people the idea that things like homosexual intercourse were abominations that deserved punishment by death. perhaps paul didn't go into detail on what "porneia" &c were because after 1600 years he considered the question to have been dealt with already. perhaps the reason god's apostles and prophets did not devote a great deal of time defining a distinct, new testament sexuality was because he did not intend any significant changes in the sexuality he had already established by the law. i'll discuss the law and homosexuality in greater detail below, but i just wanted to point out that the new testament's failure to develop a detailed new standard of sexuality is not necessarily evidence that god does not care about sexual conduct--especially after 1600 years of putting people to death for practicing homosexuality! homosexual behavior is no different. i (and the other gay christians i know) are adamant in condemning rape -- heterosexual or homosexual -- and child molestation -- heterosexual or homosexual -- and even the possibly "harmless" but obsessive kinds of sex -- heterosexual or homosexual -- that would stand condemned by paul in the very continuation of the chapter you cite [may i mildly suggest that what *paul* does in his letter that you want to use is perhaps a good guide to his meaning?] "'i am free to do anything,' you say. yes, but not everything is for my good. no doubt i am free to do anything, but i for one will not let anything make free with me." [1 cor. 6:12] which is a restatement that we must have no other "god" before god. a commandment neither i nor any other gay christian wishes to break. some people are indeed involved in obsessively driven modes of sexual behavior. it is just as wrong (though slightly less incendiary, so it's a secondary argument from the 'phobic contingent) to equate homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the rape of god's messengers. and how do you define an "obsessively driven" mode of sexual behavior? how do you determine the difference between obsessive sexual behavior and normal sex drives? is the desire to have "sinful" sex an obsessively driven mode of behavior? i think you see that this is circular reasoning: why is it defined as sinful? because it is obsessive. what makes it obsessive? the fact that the person is driven to seek it even though it's sinful. or is it obsessive because it is a desire for that which society condemns? once again, that's circular: why is it defined as obsessive? because the person wants it even though society condemns it. why does society condemn it? because it is you seem to be trying to limit the bible's condemnation of "porneia" to only "perverted" sex acts, but i don't think you can really define "perverted" without falling into exactly the same circularity you accuse me of. what, then, is paul condemning when he declares that "fornicators...shall not enter the kindgom of heaven"? i won't deal with the exegesis of leviticus, except very tangentially. fundamentally, you are exhibiting the same circularity here as in your assumption that you know what _porneia_ means. i think you misunderstood me: i was not trying to make an argument on some technical definition of "porneia", i was raising the issues of the sinfulness of extramarital sex and the lack of any scriptural evidence of a homosexual counterpart to the divinely-ordained union of heterosexual couples. there are plenty of laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in leviticus, most of which christians ignore completely. they never even bother to examine them. they just *assume* that they know which ones are "moral" and which ones are "ritual." well, i have news for you. any anthropology course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs. unlcean as categories in an awful lot of societies (we have them too, but buried pretty deep). and i cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of leviticus from the "ritual law" which no christian i know feels applies to us. i'm dead serious here. when people start going on (as they do in this matter) about how "repulsive" and "unnatural" our acts are -- and what do they know about it, huh? -- it is a solid clue to the same sort of arbitrary cultural inculcations as the american prejudice against eating please remember what you just said here for when we discuss bestiality, in part on what basis, other than assuming your conclusion, can you say that the law against male-male intercourse in leviticus is not a part of the ritual law? i am glad you asked. would you agree that if god condemns homosexual intercourse even among those who are not under the law of moses, then this would show that god's condemnation of homosexual acts goes beyond the ritual law? if i can show you from scripture that god punished the homosexual behavior of people who were *not* under the law of moses, would you agree that god's definition of homosexual intercourse as an abomination is not limited to just the ritual law and those who are under the law? i've been having a private email discussion with a 7th day adventist on the subject of the sabbath, and my main point against a christian sabbath-keeping requirement has been that nowhere in scripture does god command gentiles to rest on the sabbath, nor does he ever condemn gentiles for failing to rest on the sabbath. this illustrates the difference between universal requirements such as "thou shalt not kill", and requirements that are merely part of the (temporary, jews-only) law of moses, such as the sabbath. the point you are trying to make is that you think the classification of homosexual intercourse as "an abomination" is *just* a part of the temporary, jews-only law of moses. i on the other hand believe that it was labelled by god as an abomination for gentiles as well as jews, and that he punished those guilty of this behavior by death or exile. here's why: back in genesis 15, god promises to give abraham all the land that was then in the possession of "the amorite"--kinda hard on the amorite, don't you think? but in verse 16 we have a clue that this might not be as unjust as it sounds: it seems god is going to postpone this takeover for quite a while, because "the iniquity of the amorite is not yet complete". remember, this is all long before there was a ritual law. what then was the iniquity the amorite was committing that, when complete, would justify his being cast out of his own land and/or killed? go back and look at lev. 18 again. verses 1-23 list a variety of sins, including child sacrifice, incest, homosexuality, and bestiality. beginning in verse 24, god starts saying, "do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for _by_all_these_ _things_ the nations which i am casting out before you _have_ _become_defiled_. for the land has become defiled, therefore i have visited its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants... for whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people." notice that god says the gentile nations (who are *not* under the ritual law of moses) are about to be punished because they have "defiled" themselves and their land by committing "abominations" that include incest, bestiality, and homosexuality. flip ahead two chapters to lev. 20, and you will find these same "abominations" listed, and this time god decrees the death penalty on anyone involved in any of these things, including, specifically, a man "lying with another man as one lies with a woman" (lv. 20:13). their "bloodguiltiness" was upon them, meaning that in god's eyes, they deserved to die for having done such things. according to lev. 18:26-29, even "the alien [non-jew] who sojourns among you" was to refrain from these practices, on penalty of being "cut off [by god?] from among their people." under the circumstances, i believe it would be very difficult to support the claim that in the old testament god objected only to the intended rape, and not the homosexuality, in sodom. since god took the trouble to specifically list sex between two consenting men as one of the reasons for wiping out the canaanite nations, (not homosexual rape, mind you, but plain, voluntary gay sex), i'd say god was not neutral on the subject of homosexual behavior, even by those who had nothing to do with the mosaic covenant. for those christians who *do* think that *some* parts of leviticus can be "law" for christians (while others are not even to be thought about) it is incumbent on you *in every case, handled on its own merits* to determine why you "pick" one and ignore another. according to ii tim. 3:16, all scripture is inspired by god and is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness; thus, i believe that even though we gentile christians are not under the law, we can learn from studying it. if a certain action is defined as a sin because it is a violation of the law, then it is a sin only for those who are under the law (for example, in the case of sabbath-keeping). where god reveals that certain actions are abominations even for those who are not under the law, then i conclude that god's objection to the practice is not based on whether or not a person is under the law, but on the sinfulness of the act itself. in the case of homosexuality, homosexual intercourse is defined by god as a defiling abomination for gentiles as well as jews, i.e. for those who are not under the law as well as for those who are. thus, i am not at all trying to say that gentile christians have any obligation to keep any part of the law, i am simply saying that god referred to homosexuality as a sin even for those who are not obligated to keep the law. if this is so, then i do not think we can appeal to our exemption from the law as valid grounds for legitimizing a practice god has declared a bloodguilty abomination that defiles both jew and gentile. (continued in part 2) 
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 |> "raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist |> christian parents, mason was beaten as a child. ... |> were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with |> "raised in oakland by mexican parents, mason was beaten...", my face would perhaps because there is a connection here that is not there in the mexican variant you bring up. this is true. the statement didn't say anything about christians in general. it specifically said "strict fundamentalist" christians. it reflects a common perception that people have about fundamentalists being strict disciplinarians. whether or not this perception is justified is another issue. [the other reading is that they are distinguishing between strict and relaxed fundamentalists. --clh] 
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 | early in church history, the catechumens were dismissed prior to the celebration | of the eucharist. it was secret, giving rise to the rumors that christians i have no problem with the idea that catechumens be dismissed before the eucharist. they were not considered qualified to participate. | were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims. the actions were considered | too holy to be observed by non-christians, as well as potentially dangerous | for the individual christian who might be identified. does the dismissal in the early church mean that the eucharist was a secret? i mean, was it: you don't have to stay; from now on, only the membership can participate; you really don't have to hang around; yes, i know you're obliged to keep up attendance to qualify, but now is an exception, okay? or was it: you may not stay; what happens next is secret when we have had reason to conduct business meetings after church, we've made it clear that only members can vote. but we've always been happy for non-members to stay and observe. do you have evidence for intentional secrecy? (other than rumours, which will always happen when you have an underclass doing things not approved of by those in power?) -- christopher 
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 has anyone read this important book? if so, what are your feelings about it? i have not yet read the book, though i intend to. judging from the promos i hear constantly on the radio, it sounds good. in john macarthur's "charismatic chaos" series and the book, he talks about much of the same things. the "health,wealth,and prosperity" thing is a very real part (and very prominent) of tv religion. every time i turn to tbn, there's paul crouch (showing off his new building) talking about it's a sin to be poor and unhealthy. gr.. 
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 is anybody using david rapier's hebrew quiz software? and can tell me how to *space* when typing in the hebrew? (space bar doesn't work, for me anyway...) email please; thanks. miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu opinions are my own 
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 what presentation package would you recommend for a bible teacher? i've checked out harwards graphics for windows. i think its more suitable for sales people than for preachers or bible teachers to present an outline of a message. i'm looking for one that: * is great for overhead projector slides. * has or imports clip arts * works with word for windows or imports word for windows files. * works with inkjet printers if you know of any that meets part or all of the above, please let me know. please email your response as i don't keep up with the newsgroup. thanking you in advance, 
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 the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way. since god knows everything, he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us. we have free will, and are able to change what happens to us. however, since god knows everything, he knows all the choices we will make "in advance" (god is not subject to time). too often arguments pit predestination against free will. we believe in curiously enough, this subject has occupied a good bit of my prayer life recently. god's experience of time is so completely different from our own, since he is both within and without it. using words like "foreknowledge" and "predestination" are semantically incorrect when it comes to describing god's perception of our action, because, for god, the beginning, living, and ending of our lives are all the same. sort of. for god, there is no "before" when he did not know, so he could not have "foreknowledge" of our lives or a time when he could have "predestined" our actions. in fact, since our understanding of things is so tied to our linear experience of time, i would say that it is impossible for us to understand completely how our free will interacts with god's control of the universe. tom ault 
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 5. both families agree that he who wills and acts is always the one of the logos incarnate. marhaba nabil, if we posit two minds in christ, the mind of the logos and the mind of the human jesus, then we must admit two wills. a mind is not a mind without a will. i know this has been dealt with in past church prnouncements, but there is a philosophical problem here that should examined. t. v. morris argued that the incarnation can be seen like this: (mind of logos) ( _______ ) ( ( ) ) here, the mind of jesus is circumsribed by god the ( ( human ) ) son. god the son has complete access to the human ( ( mind ) ) mind but the human mind only has access to the mind ( ( ) ) of god the son when the son allows access. this ( (_______) ) explains why jesus said even he did not know the (_____________) time of the kingdom. the ideas of a completely healthy version of split personality from the field of psychology, and the intriguing ideas of being in a dream, seeing yourself acting, knowing that is you, but also being omniscient. [i've explained it here before. if you want the full document, ask me by mail --rex] "questions arise as we begin to think about logos and what his inner consciousness was composed of. we need to clarify the two natures of christ briefly. the divine nature, which has existed eternally, did not undertake any essential changes during the incarnation which would cause a conflict with the attributes of god, the foremost of these being his immutability. this would mean that it remained impassable, that is, incapable of suffering and death, free from ignorance and insusceptible to weakness and temptation. in the realm of the divine nature it is better to say that the son of god became that which was not absolute-and in himself. the result of the incarnation was that the divine logos could be ignorant and weak, could be tempted and suffer and die, not in his divine nature, but by the derivation of his possession of a human this would mean that both the properties of the divine nature and the human nature are properties of the person, and therefore ascribed to the person. by this reason we can say that the person can be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, yet at the same time be also a man of limited power, knowledge, a man of sorrows, subject to human wants and miseries. there is, however, no penetration of one nature into the other. deity can no more share the imperfections of humanity than humanity can share in the essential perfection of the godhead. we are not to assume that there is a double personality due to the possession of the double natures. christ's human nature is impersonal, in that it attains self-consciousness and self-determination in the personality of the god-man. we must now differentiate between the person and the nature of the man. nature is defined: "the distinguishing qualities or properties of something; the fundamental character, disposition or temperament of a living being, innate and unchangeable." nature is then, in essence, the substance possessed in common, in as such the trinity have one nature. there is also a common nature of mankind. personality, on the other hand, is the separate subsistence of nature, with the power of consciousness and will. it is for this reason that the human nature of christ has not, nor ever had, a separate subsistence, that it is impersonal. logos, the god-man, represents the principle of personality. it is equally important to see that self-consciousness and self-determination do not, as such, belong to the nature. it is for this reason that we can justifiably say that jesus did not have two consciousness or two wills, but rather one. it is theanthropic, an activity of the one personality which unites in itself the human and the divine natures, being that neither the consciousness nor the will are simply human or simply divine." [the quotation given above is not identified, and it's not entirely clear to me what position loren is taking on it. just for clarity, let me note that the view expressed in it is one of the classic christological heresies -- monothelitism. that's the position that christ's two natures were not complete, in that there was only one will. in most cases (which i think includes this example), it was the human will that was regarded as missing. normally people who talk about christ's human nature as being "impersonal" mean it in a somewhat more abstract sense. that is, they are using "person" as hypostatis, not in the usual english sense of personality. in this use, the doctrine is called "anhypostasia". personally i think anhypostasia is just a more sophisticated way of denying that the logos took on humanity fully. however it has never been formally ruled a heresy, and in fact has been held by influential theologians both ancient and modern (e.g. athanasius). but the quotation above appears to be going farther than even athanasius went, into the realm of the overtly heretical. --clh] 
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 [cont. dr. james deyoung; #3] r. scroggs robin scroggs has built upon the discussion of his predecessors and suggested a new twist to the word. scroggs believes that arsenokoitai is a "hellenistic jewish coinage, perhaps influenced by awareness of rabbinic terminology." the term is derived from lev 18"22 & 20:13 where the lxx juxtaposes the two words arsenos ("male") and koiten ("bed"), and represents the hebrew miskab zabar ("lying with a male"). yet he believes that paul did not originate the term, but borrowed it from "circles of hellenistic jews acquainted with rabbinic discussions" (180 n.14). it was invented to avoid "contact with the usual greek terminology" (108). if this is true, scroggs observes, it explains why the word does not appear in greco-roman discussions of pederasty and why later patristic writers avoided it. it was meaningless to native-speaking greeks (108). scroggs takes the second part as the active word and the first word as the object of the second part, thus differing from boswell's "learned discussion" (107). yet scroggs understands the general meaning of "one who lies with a male" to have a very narrow reference. with the preceding malokoi (i cor 6:9), which scroggs interprets as "the effeminate call-boy," arsenokoitai is the active partner "who keeps the malakos of the 'mistress' or who hires him on occasion to satisfy his sexual desires" (108). hence arsenokoitai does not refer to homosexuality in general, to female homosexuality, or to the generic model of pederasty. it certainly cannot refer to the modern gay model, he affirms (109). this is scrogg's interpretation of the term in i tim 1:10 also. the combination of pornoi ("fornicators"), arsenokoitai and andrapodistai ("slave dealers") refers to "male prostitutes, males who lie [with them], and slave dealers [who procure them]" (120). it again refers to that specific form of pederasty "which consisted of the enslaving of boys as youths for sexual purposes, and the use of these boys by adult males" (121). even "serious minded pagan authors" condemned this form of pederasty. he then uses these instances of arsenokoitai in i cor and i tim to interpret the apparently general condemnation of both female and male homosexuality in rom 1. consequently paul "must have had, could only have had pederasty in mind" (122). we cannot know what paul would have said about the "contemporary model of adult/adult mutuality in same sex relation ships" (122). in relating these terms to the context and to contemporary ethical concerns, scroggs emphasizes the point that the specific items in the list of vices in i cor 6 have no deliberate, intended meaning in paul. the form and function of the catalogue of vices are traditional and stereotyped. any relationship between an individual item in the list and the context was usually nonexistent. he concludes that paul "does not care about any specific item in the lists" (104). both on the basis of the meaning of the terms and of the literary phenomenon of a "catalogue of vices," scroggs argues that the scriptures are "irrelevant and provide no help in the heated debate today" (129). the "model in today's christian homosexual community is so different from the model attacked by the nt" that "biblical judgments against homosexuality are not relevant to today's debate. they should no longer be used in denominational discussions about homosexuality, should in no way be a weapon to justify refusal of ordination. . . " (127). reactions to the new interpretations of arsenokoitai d. wright in more recent years the positions of bailey, boswell, and scroggs have come under closer scrutiny. perhaps the most critical evaluation of boswell's view is that by david wright. in his thorough article, wright points out several shortcomings of boswell's treatment of arsenokoitai. he faults boswell for failing to cite, or citing inaccurately, all the references to lev 18:22 and 20:13 in the church fathers, such as eusebius, the "apostolic constitutions," clement of alexandria, tertullian and origen (127-28). boswell has not considered seriously enough the possibility that the term derives either its form or its meaning from the leviticus passages (129). this is significant, for if the term is so derived, it clearly refutes boswell's claim that the first half of the word (arseno-) denotes not the object but the gender of the second half (-koitai). the lxx must mean "a male who sleeps with a male," making arseno- the object. wright also faults boswell's claims regarding linguistic features of the term, including suggested parallels (129). though boswell claims that compounds with arseno- employ it objectively and those with arreno- employ it as an adjective, wright believes that the difference between the two is merely one of dialectical diversity: "no semantic import attaches to the difference between the two forms" (131). wright believes that in most compounds in which the second half is a verb or has a verbal force, the first half denotes its object and where "the second part is substantival, the first half denotes its gender" (132). it is with boswell's treatment of the early church fathers that wright takes special issue, because the former has failed to cite all the sources. for example, aristides' apology (c. ad 138) probably uses arrenomaneis, androbaten, and arsenokoitias all with the same basic meaning of male homosexuality (133), contrary to boswell's discussion. boswell fails to cite hippolytus (refut. omn. haer. 5:26:22-23) and improperly cites eusebius and the syriac writer bardensanes. the latter uses syriac terms that are identical to the syriac of i cor 6:9 and i tim 1:10 (133-34). next wright shows how the early church fathers use arsenokoitai in parallel with paidophthoria referring to male homosexuality with teenagers, the dominant form of male homosexuality among the greeks (134). sometimes this parallelism occurs in the threefold listings of moicheia ("adultery"), porneia ("fornication"), and paidophthoria, with arsenokoitai replacing paidophthoris (136). clement of alexandria in protr. 10:108:5 cites the second table of the ten commandments as "you shall not kill, ou moicheuseis ("you shall not commit adultery"), ou paidophthoreseis ("you shall not practice homosexuality with boys"), you shall not steal. . ." (150 n. 43). another occurrence of arsenokoitein ("commit homosexuality") exists in the sibylline oracles 2:71-73. it may be, wright observes, that the word was coined by a jewish pre-christian writer in a hellenistic setting represented by or.sib., book 2 (137-38). wright also discusses uses of arsenokoitai in rhetorius (6th c.) who drew upon the first century ad writer teucer, in macarius (4th-5th c.), and in john the faster (d. 595) (139-40). the last in particular bears the idea of homosexual intercourse, contrary to boswell. wright next replies to boswell's contention that the term would not be absent "from so much literature about homosexuality if that is what it denoted (140-41). wright points out that it should not be expected in writers prior to the first century ad since it did not exist before then, that the greeks used dozens of words and phrases to refer to homosexuality, that some sources (e.g. didache) show no acquaintance with paul's letters or deliberately avoid citing scripture, and that boswell neglects citing several church fathers (140-41). boswell's treatment of chrysostom in particular draws wright's attention (141-44). boswell conspicuously misrepresents the witness of chrysostom, omitting references and asserting what is patently untrue. chrysostom gives a long uncompromising and clear indictment of homosexuality in his homily on rom 1:26. boswell has exaggerated chrysostom's infrequent use of the term. wright observes that boswell has "signally failed to demonstrate any us of arsenokoites etc. in which it patently does not denote male homosexual activity" (144). it is infrequent because of its relatively technical nature and the availability of such a term as paidophthoria that more clearly specified the prevailing form of male homosexuality in the greco-roman world. wright also surveys the latin, syriac, and coptic translations of i tim and i cor. all three render arsenokoitai with words that reflect the meaning "homosexual" i.e., they understand arseno- as the object of the second half of the word (144-45). none of these primary versions supports boswell's limited conclusion based on them. wright concludes his discussion with a few observations about the catalogues of vices as a literary form. he believes that such lists developed in late judaism as hellenistic jews wrote in clear condemnation of homosexuality in the greek world. this paralleled the increased concern on the part of moral philosophers over homosexual indulgence. the term came into being under the influence of the lxx (145) so that writers spoke "generally of male activity with males rather than specifically categorized male sexual engagement with paides" (146). if arsenokoitai and paidophthoria were interchangeable, it is because the former encompassed the latter (146). in summary, wright seeks to show that arsenokoitai is a broad term meaning homosexuality and arises with judaism. the views of boswell, scroggs, and others who limit the term to "active male prostitutes" or pederasty are without significant support from linguistic and historical studies. [next: the questioning of wrights position by william peterson. after that, we get into the "good" stuff of historical & linguistic studies. this will include "symposium" by plato. if there is any doubt as to the modern understanding of homosexuality being understood or contemmplated at the time of paul, this will certainly clear things up. also we will review paul's use of lev18-20 in the nt and how, as for him, 1) the law was fulfilled, but not done away with, 2) lev 18-20 was the universal and the following chapters the general. those who put forth that the ot no longer holds true today in our culture, should stick around for this one.] 13 r. scroggs, the new testament and homosexuality (phil: 1983) 86, 107-8. independently we came to the same conclusion. apparently the connection is made in e.a. sophocles, greek lexicon of the roman & byzantine periods (from 146bc to ad 1100). 14 see discussion, 101-4. he says the same thing about paul's language in rom 1:26-27 (128). but this is doubtful. see the more cautious words of p. zaas, "i cor 6.9ff: was homosexuality condoned in the corinthian church? sblasp 17 (1979):205-12. he observes that the words moixai, malakoi, and arsenokoitai were part of jewish anti-gentile polemic. yet paul's wors at the end of the vice list, "and such were some of you," indicate that "paul is addressing real or potential abuses of his ethical message, not citing primitive tradition by rote" (210). wright disputes zaas' attempt to associate the term with idolatry (147). 15 on boswell's treatment of rom 1:26-7, the article by r.b. hays, "relations natural and unnatural" a response to john boswell's exegesis of romans 1," jre 14/1 (spring 1986): 184-215, is an excellent critique. 16 d.f. wright, "homosexuals or prostitutes? the meaning of arsenokoitai (i cor 6:9, i tim 1:10), vc 38 (1984):125-53. 17 in an unpublished paper, henry mendell, "arsenokoitai: boswell on paul," effectively refutres boswell's claims regarding the philology of arsenokoitai. he finds the meaning to be general, "a male who has sex with a male" (4-11). 18 wright's endnotes (148-49) list additional sources in the church fathers. 19 we also have noticed the same tendency by boswell to fail to cite all the references to sodom and sodomy in the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha. see j.b. deyoung, "a critique of prohomosexual interpretations of the ot apocrypha and pseudepigrapha," bsac 146/588 (1990):437-53. 20 in light of the claim made by boswell that the infrequency of arsenokoitai points to a meaning lacking homosexual significance, wright asks pertinently "why neither philo nor josephus use paidofthoria, nor josephus paiderastia, and why . . clement did not use the latter and chrysostom the former?" (152 n. 71) in a more recent article, "homosexuality: the relevance of the bible," evq 61 (1989):291-300, wright reiterates these same points. paul shows a "remarkable originality" in extending the ot ethic to the church (300). 
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<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21755" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 i also don't see the _necessity_ of saying the holy parents were some- how sanctified beyond normal humanity: it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god's grace in being incarnated through an or- dinary human being. when elizabeth greeted mary, elizabeth said something to the effect that mary, out of all women, was blessed. if so, it appears that this exactly places mary beyond whoa, dude i don't see the jump you made. she was blessed, i'll give you that much. what do you mean, she was placed "beyond" the sanctification of normal humanity. mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu if responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21757">
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 the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way. since god knows everything, he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us. we have free will, and are able to change what happens to us. however, since god knows everything, he knows all the choices we will make "in advance" (god is not subject to time). too often arguments pit predestination against free will. we believe in both. that last sentence of steve's is an important one to remember. there are certain things in the catholic religion that cannot be completely comprehended by a human being. were this not the case, it would be good evidence that the religion was man-made. in the case of predestination, you have to reconcile two things that would at first appear to be irreconcilable: the sovereignty of god's will over all things, and man's free will in deciding his own fate. catholics believe in both! but that doesn't mean that anyone has come up with a pat reconciliation... i have often thought that goedel's famous theorem has applicability to catholic dogma, at least in an analogous sense: there are things that are true that cannot be proved. god's intellect is far above ours. there are many truths that we will never be able to understand. 
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 when elizabeth greeted mary with the words: "blessed art thou among women" (luke 1:42), it appears that this places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity. but deborah says (judges 5:24): blessed among women shall be jael the wife of heber the kenite, blessed above all women in the tents. it can doubtless be taken that jael's slaying of sisera was a type of mary's victory over sin. but even if we take deborah's words as applying prophetically or symbolically to mary, they must still be applicable literally to jael. we may well take them to mean that god used her as a part of his plan for the deliverance of his people, and that she has this in common with mary. but we have no reason to suppose that they mean that she was sinless, and thus no reason to take the like expression applied to mary as proof that she was sinless. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21759">
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 a recent post bears the subject line: re: serbian genocide work of god? the text contains 80 lines devoted to a defence of the doctrine of predestination as applied to the salvation of individuals. there is then a five-line post-script on the balkans. it is natural and easy to keep the subject line of the post that one is replying to, but when the focus shifts, keeping the same subject can cause confusion. this is intended as a general request. the post mentioned is just the handiest example. james kiefer 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21761">
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 dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow. proverbs 13:11 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21762">
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 i don't necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it, since i see biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy. early in church history, the catechumens were dismissed prior to the of the eucharist. it was secret, giving rise to the rumors that christians were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims. the actions were considered too holy to be observed by non-christians, as well as potentially dangerous for the individual christian who might be identified. larry overacker (llo@shell.com) [.sig deleted for brevity] larry - thanks for the reply, but this isn't quite the same thing. like i said before, i can understand why non-christians would be denied *access* to holy ceremonies, but the ceremony itself (communion) was not secret. in fact, all four gospels record the first "breaking of the bread" in some detail. communion was a fellowship meal, and it was (and still should be, in my opinion) inappropriate to invite those who did not share in the fellowship of the body of christ. the fact that unbelievers, denied access to these communal meals, began to imagine all sorts of secret and debased rituals during communion does not by any means imply that the early christians were in fact hiding shameful things from the general public. in fact, i think if you read some of the early church fathers, you will find that they were not at all bashful about describing what went on during communion. that's why it seems funny to me when mormons, who claim to be the only true restoration of 1st century christianity, insist on hiding certain rituals on the grounds that they are "too sacred." [actually, that's not quite the case. john omits the central elements of the last supper. his gospel is full of symbolism of bread and wine. but the actual story isn't there. some people think he has omitted some of the details because they were not talked about in public in his community. there is also evidence that some aspects of baptismal practice were kept secret. see morton smith's "secret gospel" -- i don't agree with his lurid speculations on what the secret practices actually were, but there does seem to be some evidence that mark omitted certain details because they were inappropriate for publication. --clh] 
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 ps. just to make it clear, i don't do ( and have never tried ) oobes. i tend to think they are off limits for christians. 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21765">
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 [referring to mary] she was immaculately conceived, and so never subject to original sin, but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life. this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god. i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin. was mary fully human? if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin, and free of committing sin their whole life, then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus? why can't god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless, without the need for repentance and salvation and all that? concept of mary's sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it. it's always a two-way street. god gave her the grace to avoid sin, thus when she was visited by gabriel, she gave her fiat, her total acceptance of god's will. this fiat summarizes why catholics regard her as the highest of all humans, that god chose her and that she accepted. knowing this in advance, we extrapolate that she was neither stained by nor subject to original sin. god did create us all miraculously free to choose or not choose to sin. "sufficient for the day is the evil thereof and the grace of god to command it." this amount of grace was precisely determined by god to be the amount required to do what god asked of her. the grace given to each of us is also enough, but we do not always choose to accept it. we also believe jesus was fully human and never god could have created a much better person than myself, one who always chose the right thing, yet he created me instead, despite my flaws. he proves he loves me as i am, continually drawing me towards perfection. for whatever purpose he has for me, he has confidence that i will accomplish it. if i ask god to repeat his miraculous creation of the mother of his son, where will that leave me? joe moore 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21774">
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 i have been studying the bible now for about a year. i love it, but i am not very familiar with the different denominations, or traditions, or common beliefs of various christian groups. i have heard various people (outside this news group) describe *idols* such as power, money, material possessions etc. these things are worshiped in some sense i suppose, but i never really gave idols much thought. until now... i have been reading the postings in this news group (which i just found a few days ago), and i have a question... first, i'm not trying to question anyone's belief or try to push my views on anyone else (i haven't been at this long enough to have any views other than i cannot get to heaven by being good, i must understand that christ bore my sins on the cross so that i could be saved and i need to repent, i.e. realize that every time i sin, i might as well stick a sharp stick in christ's side because he took the punishment for my sins, when he died on the cross). in my studies, mary never really comes up. i know who she is, but that's about it. it seems to me that a statue of mary could be considered an idol? do people pray to statues of mary? it sounds like educated christians (more educated than myself i'm sure) believe mary was sinless? wow... i hoped to spend the summer convincing myself (one way or the other) about tongues (i'm reading "charismatic chaos"). i guess i'll study tongues in parallel with reading this news group. any help you can give me will be appreciated. [i don't think the issue is so much that people are more educated than you (though it may well be that they are), as that they come from a different tradition than yours. this is a discussion between catholics and protestants. catholics generally believe that mary was sinless. protestants do not. the issue comes down to different sources of authority. protestants generally limit themselves to the bible as a source of doctrine. since this isn't in the bible (except in passages that no one would understand in this way if they didn't already believe it), protestants don't accept it. catholics see continuing revelation through the church, though they believe the results are consistent with the bible. i interpret your posting, not as a call for yet another argument about whether the catholic marian devotions are idolatry (an argument i am not prepared to see newed here), but as a sign of being interested in learning about traditions other than your own. catholics are of course a major one, but by no means the only one. i generally consider the major traditions to be catholic, orthodox, and various subsets of protestantism. within protestantism, it's a matter of how finely you want to cut things. these days i think the major division is between those who accept biblical inerrancy and those who don't. there are also a number of major historical traditions, but in recent decades distinctions are tending to blur. i'd identify the major protestant traditions as: lutheran, reformed, anglican (they're sort of halfway between catholic and protestant), wesleyan, baptist, holiness, pentecostal, church of christ but there are a number of others. historical distinctions tend not to be so important among the liberal churches anymore, and i think current trends in society and the church are also tending to make conservatives seen themselves as allies from a general "evangelical" perspective. but differences among these various traditions are still quite marked. i think the best introduction to these issues is to read a good book on church history. anyone who wants to understand the church really needs to understand how we got where we are now. a church history will normally show you where each of these traditions came from, and give a feeling for their nature. unfortunately i'm away from my library at the moment, so i don't have anything specific to recommend. --clh] 
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 i'm about to revise my resume and was wondering if i should put on there the fact that i'm a christian. give me some input on what you think. jimmy buddenberg (ccjim@vax.cns.muskingum.edu) student systems analyst muskingum college 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21776">
<answer instance="soc.religion.christian21776" senseid="soc.religion.christian"/>
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 does anyone know whether the _acta sanctorum_, the huge multi-volume collection of roman catholic hagiography produced by the bollandists, has ever been translated into english? i'm working on the _vita s. dympnae_ and would love to be able to check my own translation against somebody else's. email replies preferred, unless this query turns out to be of general interest. liz broadwell (ebroadwe@mail.sas.upenn.edu) department of english * ad majorem dei gloriam. the university of pennsylvania 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21777">
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 -= pastortalk =- a weekly dialogue with a local pastor on the news of the day by carl (gene) wilkes startext: mc344578 compuserve: 70423,600 internet: 70423.600@compuserve.com -= this week's thoughts =- last week the supreme court refused without comment to hear an appeal by rensselaer, in, school officials desiring the distribution of bibles in their public schools (rel65, 5/21). a lower court had banned the local gideons, an international bible- distribution group, from passing out bibles to fifth-graders. the aclu's barry lynn was quoted as saying that the court's action protected the "religious neutrality of our public schools." he also said that schools must serve students of "all faiths and none." schools were not to be a "bazaar where rival religious groups compete for converts," according to lynn. several gideons, men who are responsible for putting bibles in hospitals and hotels, are members of our church. they tell of similar stories where they are only allowed to distribute bibles on sidewalks around the schools, but cannot go inside the schools. they tell of mild harassment by parents who do not want their children receiving a bible from a stranger. they are willing to continue their work at a distance, but find the school's position somewhat disheartening. i understand rationally and logically the court's position. and, i can see the sense of fairness for all groups. but, on the other hand, when does "neutrality" become "nihilism?" when does plurality turn into no position at all? i see a couple of ironies here. one is that we can pass out condoms but not bibles in our schools. think on that one for a moment. the other is that while we are seeking "religious neutrality" in our schools, countries like russia--who, by the way, practiced "religious neutrality" for the past seventy years--are making the bible part of their public school curriculum. when i was in st. petersburg in march, the church we worked with had trained over 100 public school teachers to teach the bible, and the government had requested hundreds more! i recently heard a medical doctor who is president of the gideon chapter in moscow tell how they are eagerly invited to the university of moscow to distribute bibles to the students and are given class time to explain its contents. i remember seeing a photograph of this doctor holding a bible and speaking to the university students standing under a statue of lenin. now, that's ironic! i admit two things: 1) we are a pluralistic society, and all faiths have equal footing. this is what our country was founded on. 2) to allow every group on school grounds could create a bazaar-like atmosphere. each city must work to be inclusive of all religions and provide a hearing for them. 3)--i know i said two--the vitality of religious faith is not dependent upon whether or not the public arena acknowledges it as valid. however--and you knew this was coming--i believe, disallowing the distribution of the bible by law-abiding, caring adults in our schools only signals once again our culture's movement away from a singular base from which we as individuals and as a nation can make moral and ethical decisions. what do you think? -= mail box =- (let me know if you do not want me to print your letter or your name.) good column [re: time coverstory about teen sexuality]; i agree with moral education from home, but some homes don't have the kinds of morals i want taught. one family i worked with smoked dope as their primary family activity. another acted like incest was ok. families, no matter where they are, are often a lot sicker than we'd like to believe. i agree that the "home" ain't what it used to be, and some homes are not the place to learn value-based sexuality. i still believe that this is where the church can come into play. i know, those families you speak of may not come to a church to seek information, but the help does not need to be in a church building...i believe that the youth from the families you mentioned will probably disregard the value-free information at school, too. (#) writer's note: the views of this column do not necessarily reflect the views of members of or the church, legacy drive baptist church, plano, tx. 
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 after reading this story about st. maria goretti (posted two weeks ago), i am a bit confused. while it is clear that her daily life is one of probity and sanctity, i am afraid i don't quite understand the final episode of her life. i am reading it correctly, she (and the church apparently) felt that being raped was a sin on _her_ part, one so perfidious that she would rather die than commit it. if this is the case i'm afraid that i disagree rather strongly. can anyone out there explain this one to me? yours in christ, david cruz-uribe, sfo 
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<instance id="soc.religion.christian21783">
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 have i not commanded you? be strong and courageous. do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the lord your god will be with you wherever you go." joshua 1:9 
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 : after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts 4 months, it : has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with : liberals, catholics, new agers', and athiests. someone might think [...etc...] since when did conservative, protestant, old-time religion believers get an exclusive francise to christianity? christianity is, and always has been, a diverse and contentious tradition, and this group reflects that diversity. i, fo one, am not ready to concede to _any_ group- be they "liberal" or "conservative", catholic, protestant, or orthodox, charismatic or not- the right to claim that they have _the truth_, and everyone else is not "christian." i am becoming increasingly convinced that most of us take paul's illustration about one body / many parts far too narrowly. it is easy to say that the one body represents a particular sect of christianity (generally our own), and the parts are clearly the various offices of ministry. there is a place for that. but having met people who are walking closeely with god in a wide variety of doctine - catholic, protestant, liberal, conservative, orthodox, etc. - i am willing to encompass a wide spectrum of views within the context of the 'body of christ.' and i am equally sure that one day, after we shug off this mortal coil, when we no longer see through a glass darkly but see clearly, face to face, we will all be ashamed at some of the things we held as truth. we ought all fellowship, worship, and serve where we are called, and understand that where we are called may not be where everyone else is called. one of the fathers of the reformation (help me out - can't recall the name) put it quite succiently: in essentials, unity. in nonessentials, liberty. in all things, charity. while i agree with lewis (mere christianity) that calling oneself a christian implies some basic, fundamental standards of belief if the word is to mean anything at all, i think most of us define the bounds of essentials a bit too broadly, deny the place for liberty in questionable issues near those bounds, and ignore the requirements of charity all together. me? i attend a vineyard church, speak in tongues, am effectively an inerrantist, though i'll grant some inaccuracy in translation, am moderately pre-mill, and evangelical. but, i'm not ready to damn those who use icons, say mass in latin, uphold the virgin mary (though i really don't believe that she was sinless), vote on church membership, or insist on baptism for salvation. of course, i think my doctine is pretty close to the truth - why would i follow it if i believed something else was closer to the truth? but my understanding of the reality of a walk with christ is continually evolving as i spend more and more time walking with him, studying his word, and fellowshiping with others in the (often extended) family. i read, much of the night, and go south in the winter. --t.s. eliot, the waste land s.w. marlatt, <>< & *(:-) prov. 25.2 university of colorado: marlatt@spot.colorado.edu 492-3939 national center for atmospheric research: marlatt@neit.cgd.ucar.edu 497-1669 
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 continuing part #4 (i think); used by permission, the source and nt meaning of arsenokoitai, with implications for christian ethics and ministry james b. deyoung w. petersen more recently wright's understanding has itself been questioned from a different direction. in a brief 1986 study william petersen found linguistic confusion in using the english word "homosexuals" as the meaning of arsenokoitai.[22] he faulted wright and english bible translaions for rendering it by "homosexuals" in i cor 6:9 and i tim 1:10. in a sense petersen has coalesced bailey, boswell, and scroggs into a single assertion that reiterates, in effect, the position of bailey. he finds "homosexuals" unacceptable as a translation because it is anachronistic. "a major disjunction" exists between contemporary thought and terminology and the thought and terminolgy in paul's time (187-88). what is this "disjunction"? he bases it on historical and linguistic facts. accordingly, ancient greek and roman society treated male sexuality as polyvalent and characterized a person sexually only by his sexual acts. virtually all forms of behavior, except transvestism, were acceptable. christianity simply added the categories of "natural" and "unnatural" in describing these actions. ancient society know nothing of the categories of "homosexuals" and "heterosexuals," and assumed that, in the words of dover quoted approvingly by petersen, "everyone responds at different times to both homosexual and to heterosexual stimuli. . ." (188). [23] in contrast to this, modern usage virtually limits the term "homosexual" to desire and propensity. k.m. benkert, who in 1869 coined the german term equivalent to "homosexual," used it as referring to orientation, impluse or affectional preference and having "nothing to do with sexual acts" (189). petersen then proceeds to cite the "supplement to the oxford english dictionary," which defines "homosexual" only as a propensity or desire with no mention of acts. petersen's point is that by using "homosexuals" for arsenokoitai, one wrongfully reads a modern concept back into early history "where no equivalent concept existed" (189). consequently the translation is inaccurate because it "includes celibate homophiles,. . . . incorrectly exludes heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts . . . [and]incorrectly includes female homosexuals" (19=89). prior to 1869 there was no "cognitive structure, either inour society or in antiquity, within which the modern bifurcation of humanity into 'homosexuals' and 'hetersosexuals' made sence" (189). the foregoing clarifies why petersen feels that the translatio "homosexual" is mistaken. yet is it possible that petersen is the one mistaken, on both historical and linguistic or philological grounds? the next phases of this paper will critically examine petersen's position. the justification for translating arsenokoitai by "homosexuals" historical grounds a refutation of the foregoing opposition to the traslation of arsenokoitai by "homosexuals" begins with the historical and cultural evidence. since virtually everyone acknowledges that the word does not appear before paul's usage, no historical settings earlier than his are available. yet much writing reveals that ancient understanding of homosexuality prior to and contemporary with paul. the goal is to discover wheither the ancient s conceived of homosexuality, particularly homosexual orientation, in a way similar to present-day concepts. peterson, bailey, boswell, and scroggs claim that the homosexual condition, desire, propensity, or inversion -whatever it is called- cannot be part of the definition of the term. they assert this either because the term is limited to acts of particular kind (boswell, active male prostitutes; scroggs, pederasty) or because the homosexual condition was unknown in ancient times (bailey; petersen). the following discussion will show why neither of these positions is legitimate. attention will be devoted to the latter postion first with the former one being addressed below under "linguistic grounds." in regard to the latter position, one may rightfully ask, did not the homosexual condition exist before 1869? is it only a modern phenomenon? yet if it is universal, as alleged today, it must have existed always including ancient times, even though there is lack of sophistication in discussing it. indeed, evidence show that the ancients, pre-christian and christian, not only knew about the total spectrum of sexual behavior, including all forms of same-sex activity (transvestism included), but also knoew about same-sex orientation or condition. petersen admits (190 n. 10) that plato in "symposium" (189d-192d) may be a "sole possible exception" to ancient ingnorance of this condition. he discounts this, however, believing that even here "acts appear to be the deciding factor." however, this is a very significant exception, hardly worthy of being called "an exception," because of the following additional evidence for a homosexual condition. the "symposium" of plato gives some of the strongest evidence for knowledge about the homosexual condition. [24] plato posits a third sex comprised of a maile-female (androgynon ("man-woman"). hence "original nature" palai physis, consisted of three kinds of human beings. zeus sliced these human beings in half, to weaken them so that they would not be a threat to the gods. consequently each person seeks his or her other half, either one of the opposite sex or one of the same sex. plato then quotes aristophances: each of us, then, is but a tally of a man, since every one shows like a flatfish the traces of having been sliced in two; and each is ever searching for the tally that will fit him. all the men who are sections of that composite sex that at first was called man-woman are woman-courters; our adulterers are mostly descended from that sex, whence likewise are derived our mancourting women and adulteresses. all the women who are sections of the woman have no great fancy for men: they are incllined rather to women, and of this stock are the she-minions. men who are sections of the male pursue the masculine, and so long as their boyhood lasts they show themselves to be sliced of the male by making griends with men and delighting to lie with them and to be clasped in men's embrasces; these are the finest boys and striplings, for they have the most manly nature. some say they are shameless creatures, but falsely: for their behavior is due not to shamelessness but to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome their like. sure evidence of this is the fact that on reaching maturity these alone prove in a public career to be men. so when they come to man's estate they are boy-lovers, and have no natural interest in wiving and getting children but only do these things under stress of custom; they are quite contented to live together unwedded all their days. a man of this sort is at any rate born to be a lover of boys or the willing mate of a man, eagerly greeting his own kind. well, when one of them -whether he be a boy-lover or a lover of any other sort- happens on his own particular half, the two of them are wondrously thrilled with affection and intimacy and love, and are hardly to be induced to leave each other's side for a single moment. these are they who continue together throughout life, though they could not even say what they would have of one another (191d-192c) [25] should these two persons be offered the opportunity to be fused together for as long as they live, or even in hades, aristophanes says that each "would unreservedly deem that he had been offered just what he was yearning for all the time: (192e). several observations about this text are in order. lesbianism is contemplated, as will as male homosexuality (191e). "natural interest" (ton noun physei), (192b) refelects modern concepts of propensity or inclination. the words, "born to be a lover of boys or the willing mate of a man: (paiderastes te kai philerastes gignetai), (192b) reflect the modern claims "to be born this," i.e., as homosexual. the idea of mutuallity ("the two of them are wondrously thrilled with affection and intimacy and love," 192b) is present. aristophanes even speaks of "mutual love ingrained in mankind reassembling our early estate" (ho eros emphytos allelon tois anthropois kai tes archaias physeos synagogeus, 191d). the concept of permanency ("these are they who continue together throughout life," 102c) is also present. further mention of and/or allusion to permanecy, mutality, "gay pride," pederasty, homophobia, motive, desire, passion, and the nature of love and its works is clearly the ancients thought of love (homosexual or other) apart from actions. the speakers in the symposium argue that motive in homosexuality is crucial; money, office, influence, etc. . . bring reproach (182e-183a, 184b). they mention the need to love the soul not the body (183e). there are tow kinds of love in the body (186b) and each has its "desire" and "passion" (186b-d). the speakers discuss the principles or "matters" of love (187c), the desires of love (192c) and being "males by nature" (193c). noteworthy is the speech of socrates who devotes much attention to explaining how desire is related to love and its objects (200a-201c). desire is felt for "what is not provided or present; for something they have not or are not or lack." this is the object of desire and love. socrates clearly distinguishes between "what sort of being is love" and the "works" of love (201e). this ancient philosopher could think of both realms -seaual acts as well as disposition of being or nature. his wors have significance for more than pederasty. [26] in summary, virtually every element in the modern discussion of love and homosexuality is anticipated in the symposium of plato. petersen is in error when he claims that the ancients could only think of homosexual acts, not inclination or orientation. widespread evidence to the contray supports the latter. [27] biblical support for homosexuality inclination in the contexts where homosexual acts are discribed adds to the case for the ancient distinction. in rom 1:21-28 such phrases as "reasoning," "heart," "becoming foolish," "desires of the heart." and "reprobate mind" prove paul's concern for disposition and inclination along with the "doing" or "working" of evil (also see vv. 29-32). even the catologues of vices are introdiced (i tim 1:8-10) or concluded (i cor 6:9-11) by words describing what people "are" or "were," not what they "do." habits betray what people are within, as also the lord jesus taught (cf. matt. 23:28). the inner condition is as important as the outer act; one gives rise to the other (cf. mt 5:27). petersen errs regarding other particulars too. transvestism apparently was accepted by the ancients. it was practiced among canaaniteds, syrian, people of asia minor, as well as greeks, according to s.r. driver. [28] only a few moralist and jewish writers are on record as condemning it. for example, seneca (moral epistles 47.7-8) condemns homosexual exploitation that forces an adult slave to dress, be beardless, and behave as a woman. philo also goes to some length to describe the homosexuals of his day and their dressing as women (the special laws iii, 37-41; see also his on the virtues, 20-21, where he justifies prohibition of cross-dressing). even the ot forbade the interchange of clothing between the sexes (deut 22:5). petersen is also wrong in attributing to christianity the creating of the "new labels" of "natural" and "unnatural" for sexual behavior. these did not begin with paul (rom 1:26-27) but go as far back as ancient greece and even non-christian contemporaries used them. plato, the test.naph., philo, josephu, plutarch, and others used these words or related concepts. [29] linguistic grounds 22 w.l. petersen, "can arsenokoitai be translated by 'homosexuals'? (i cor 6:9; i tim 1:10)" vc 40 (1986): 187-91. 23 k.j. dover, greek homosexuality (cambridge, harvard univ, 1978) 1 n. 1. 24 we are conscious of the fact that plato's writings may not reflect athenian society, or that the speakers in "symposium" may not reflect plato's view. however, it is assumed that they do, and with this agrees dover (homosexuality 12) and other evidence cited below 25 the translation is that of w.r.m. lamb, plato: symposioum lcl (cambridge: harvard univ, 1967) 141-143. note the reference to "adulteress." if there is a homosexual condition derived from birth or the genes, logically there must also be an adulterous conditon derived from birth. 26 elsewhere in the symposium we are told that it is the heavenly love to love the male and young men (181c) but this must not be love for boys too young; the latter should be outlawed (181d-e). such love of youths is to be permanent (181d), lifelong and abiding (184a). where homosexual love is considered a disgrace, such an attitude is due to encroachments of the rulers and to the cowardice of the ruled (182d -an early charge of "homophobia"?). in athens it was "more honorable to love openly than in secret" (182d -an ancient expression of "coming out of the closet"). mutality was present ("this compels lover and beloved alike to feel a zealous concern for their own virtue," 184b). for petersen to label the symposium a "possible" exception to his position is inadequate and misrepresentative. it is a significant witness to greek society hundreds of years before the time of christ. 27 dover (homosexuality 12, 60-68) finds homosexual desire and orientation in plato's works (symposioum and phaedrus) and elsewhere. philo writes of those who "habituate themselves" to the practive of homosexual acts (the special laws 3.37-42; cf. de vita contemplativa 59-63). josephus says that homosexuality had become a fixed habit for some (against apion 2.273-75) clement of alexandria on matt. 19:12 writes the "some men, from birth, fhave a natural aversion to a woman; and indeed those who are naturally so consitited do well not to marry" (miscellanies 3:1) it is addressed in novella 141 of justinian's codex of laws (it referes to those "who have been consumed by this disease" as in need of renouncing "there plague," as well as acts). pseudo lucian (erostes 48) and achilles tatius (leucippe and clitophon ii.38) speak of it. finally thucydides 2.45.2 has: "great is you glory if you fall not below the standard which nature has set for your sex." boswell (christianity 81-87) cites poets (juvenal, ovid), witers (martial), statesmen (cicero), and others who describe permanent, mutual homosexual relationships, even marriages. even emperors could be either gay-married (nero) or exlusively gay (hadrian), boswell says. scroggs (homosexuality 28, 32-34) admits that both inversion and perversion must have existed in the past. he discusses possible references to adult mutual homosexual and lesbian relationships, but dismisses them (130-44). 28 see specifics in s.r. driver a critical and exegetical commentary on deuteronomy (edinburgh:1895) 250. he observes that the prohibition of cross-dressing in deut. 22:5 is not a "mere rule of conventional propriety." see also dover, homosexuality 73-76, 144. 29 plato in his last work, in which he seeks to show how to have a virtuous citizen, condemned pederasty and marriage between men as "against nature" (para phosin)(laws 636a-b; 636c; 836a-c; 838; 841d-e). according to test.naph 3:4-5 the sodomites changed the "order of nature." the jewish writers, philo (on abraham 135-137) and josephus (ant. 1.322; 3.261, 275; ag. ap. 2.199; 2.273, 275) label sexual deviation as "against nature." finally,, first century moralist such as plutarch (dianlogue on love 751c-e; 752b-c) spoke of homosexuality as "against nature." christians clearly did not invent the labels "natural" and "unnatural". see j.b. de young, "the meaning of 'nature' in romans 1 and its implications for biblical prosecriptions of homosexual behavior" jets 31/4 (dec 1988):429-41. 
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 the christian reformed church does not allow people to belong to lodges, the reformed church in america does. the conservatives in both churches are very similar, as are the "progressives". the rca currently ordains women; the crc is fighting over the issue. a significant fraction of both churches live in western michigan. (fyi, i went to the crc school calvin college.) 
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 i'm looking for the following article: ``the war within: an anatomy of lust'' leadership 3 (1985), pp 30-48 i've looked in the libraries of 3 uk bible colleges, but none of them subscribe to the magazine (its a us publication, btw). if anyone has access to this article and would be willing to post me a photocopy (i presume that copyright restrictions will allow this?), please e-mail me. thanks, michael davis (cs89mcd@brunel.ac.uk) 
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 i just like to share this rosary and other prayer propagation practice we do in my country. i am not sure if it is going on also here in the us or any other country. in all these 4 1/2 yrs. i've been here in illinois, usa, i have not encountered it. may i just call it "traveling fatima" since i don't know of an exact translation of what we call it in my native language. for certain regions in a district in a town or city, an image/ statue of our lady of fatima is moved from one home (originating from owner) to another. this will stay with that family for one (1) week and this family is required to pray the rosary and other prayers (prayer sheets accompany the image) to our lady of fatima. the move will be like a simple procession of folks picking up the image from its current 'home' after 'departing' prayers and proceeds to move it to the next home which has the prior notification about the move. there will be the 'receiving' prayers at the next home to welcome our lady of fatima image there. it does not have to be that only members of the family in that home who must pray to the image. they may invite others (or others/friends can invite themselves in ;^)) to participate during prayer time in that 'new' home everyday for one week. this image is moved from one family to the next within the bounded region of that district, until it goes back to the owner of the image. this is probably going on around there (philippines) right now (or somebody correct me when exactly since i forgot) and every year, this is part of our devotion to our lady of fatima. it has been easy to facilitate this back home because it is more likely that your next door neighbor is a catholic and the image then is just moved next door. i am thinking of starting something like it in the village where my sister and her family lives. most of our friends and neighbors there are catholics and practicing ones. i'd like to know if there are any state/community laws that this practice will violate, whatsoever, before i go for it. thank you for any comments or help about this matter. -marida (maridai@ecs.comm.mot.com) 
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 are there any members of conservative, religious, politically active groups (such as the christian coalition) out there? i come from a very liberal background, and i'd like to talk to some conservative people out there in a public forum (such as this one.) i frankly can't understand the rationale or christian basis for much of the conservative position, and i'd like to try and learn more about this movement--after all, we're part of the same church. is anyone interested in explaining a bit about the conservative viewpoint? alan terlep "if your children knew just how oakland university, rochester, mi lame you were, they'd murder atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu you in your sleep." rushing in where angels fear to tread. --frank zappa 
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 from the june newsletter of the latin liturgy association: there is a new e-mail discussion group: latin-l, a forum for people interested in classical latin, medieval latin, neo-latin; the languages of choice are latin (of course) and whatever vulgar languages you feel comfortable using. please be prepared to translate on request. the field is open -- name your topic! in order to subscribe, bitnet users should send an interactive message of the form "tell listserv@psuvm sub latin-l [your name]". internet users should send a message (without a subject line) to the address listserv@psuvm.psu.edu. the message should read "sub latin-l [your name]". once subscribed, one may participate by sending messages to latin-l@psuvm or latin-l@psuvm.psu.edu. richard aquinas chonak, norris@mit.edu orbis unus orans 
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 stephen a. creps writes to all: sac> also, we know that sac> the bible says that _everyone_ must be baptized to enter heaven. where exactly does it say that? sac> _everyone_ includes infants, unless there is other scripture to the sac> contrary, i.e. an exception. since there is no exception listed in the sac> bible, we must assume (to be on the safe side) that the bible means what sac> it says, that _everyone_ must be baptized to enter heaven. i think we do see an exception in the case of cornelius and his household, mentioned in acts. of course, they were baptised, but only after "god showed that he accepted them by giving them the holy spirit". this means they were already acceptable to god before their baptism, and had they suddenly died they would have gone to heaven. in case that seems far-fetched - an ancestor of mine was a missionary who worked among the hereros in namibia. some of the tribesmen were jealous of christianity, and they poisoned the first convert before he could be baptised. surely he still went to heaven? i'm inclined to agree with a comment recorded at the time: "it is not the neglect of baptism, but its contempt, that condemns." internet: mike.hahn@p57.f714.n7102.z5.fidonet.org via: the catalyst bbs in port elizabeth, south africa. (catpe.alt.za) +27-41-34-2859, v32bis & hst. 
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 just a quick comment. as a baptist clergyperson, i find the idea of such a "baptism" (if the news report is in fact accurate, and they seldom are regarding religion) offensive. the pastor here seems to have a most unbaptist view of baptism- one that seems to demand the ceremony even when comprehension and choice are absent. we do baptize converts, but no one who has been deceived into hearing the word is likely to be a convert. if in fact the grace of god might work in such a situation, there is no harm done in waiting a day or baptist believe in regenerate membership. did this church include these half-baked (at best) converts into their church fellowship? or do they somehow feel there is some validity in dunking them and turning them loose? this kind of "evangelism" is certainly not baptist, and probably not very christian, either. revdak@netcom.com 
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 [ in response to a question about why jesus' parents would be sanctified beyond normal humanity] when elizabeth greeted mary, elizabeth said something to the effect that mary, out of all women, was blessed. if so, it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity. i would think that simply being pregnant with the incarnation of the almighty god would be enough to make mary blessed among all women, whether or not she had special spiritual attributes. i find that the more special mary needs to be, the less human jesus gets. seanna watson bell-northern research, | pray that at the end of living, (seanna@bnr.ca) ottawa, ontario, canada | of philosophies and creeds, | god will find his people busy opinion, what opinions? oh *these* opinions. | planting trees and sowing seeds. no, they're not bnr's, they're mine. | i knew i'd left them somewhere. | --fred kaan 
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 dear fellow christians, i had a dinner last night with a bible study group which i am in. we had a discussion about the difference between christianity and islam. and i was shocked to hear that our bible study teacher said that mohammad was indeed a prophet but of satan. i said, "what??" i did not believe that, because i have some moslem friends who are so kind and nice, even sometimes i feel i wish i could be like them (in my point of view, they don't sin as much as i do). how come if they were under satan, they could have such personalities. to tell you the truth, i don't know much about islam. but i know that they believe in god, they believe in the day of now i'm asking you what your opinions about islam and its teaching. important : i do not want to discuss whether they are saved or not. i do not want to discuss about politic related to islam. p.s: i post this in bit.listserv.christia, soc.religion.christian, and bit.listserv.catholic. in christ, our lord, smile......... jesus loves you....... tabut torsina torsina@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu [let me start by saying that this is not the right newsgroup for a discussion of islam, since there's a group for that. but i suspect the point your teacher was making was not specifically about islam. indeed it's going to be impossible to see what he was getting at within your groundrules, since the question of whether non-christians are saved is at the heart of it. the classic christian view, which i think most people believed until the last century or so, was that christianity (and of course judaism) was the only religion founded by god, and that all other religions worshipped false gods, and came from satan. this is more or less a corollary of another traditional view that no one but christians (and possibly jews) will be saved. this need not mean that there's no truth in any other religion, nor that all of their members are intentionally satanic. after all, in order to be an effective snare, satanic alternatives would have to be attractive. thus they might contain all kinds of truth, wisdom and spiritual insights. they would be missing only one thing -- knowledge of salvation through christ. if this is the background of your teacher's remarks -- and i suspect it is -- that means that a discussion of islam is not necessarily relevant. the point is not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with it. it may teach a fine code of behavior, and its practitioners may all be wonderful people. but if salvation requires being a follower of christ, it could still be a satanic invention. this is a reasonable deduction from the classic protestant position. christianity says that salvation isn't a matter of being kind and nice. those are good things, and we should encourage them. but no one is able to do them enough to be saved. salvation requires christ. (please forgive me for doing this in protestant terms. there's a catholic equivalent to this that has similar implications, but in different terms.) a religion may be quite attractive in all visible ways. but if it doesn't have christ, it's like a diet that consists of food that looks wonderful, tastes great, but is missing some essential food element so that you end up dying. let me be clear that i am not specifically advocating this position. what i'm trying to do is (as usual) to clarify issues. indeed it is now relatively uncommon for christians to believe that all other religions are satanic. most christians regard such beliefs as an unfortunate vestige of the past. this is part of a general move within christianity in the last century or so to a non-judgemental god. christians now find it hard to believe that god would allow anybody other than a really rotten person to end up in hell, and they find it hard to envision that real malignant spiritual forces are at work in the world doing things like creating superficially attractive alternatives to christianity. whether there is actually a sound basis for the shift is a decision that people need to make for themselves. --clh] 
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 i will remind this list that i have a booklet on fatima i will send to any one who wants it. it is "our lady of fatima's peace plan from heaven". it is 30 pages in length and includes the fatima story. if you want one or more, let me know. wallace mayo mayo@cs.utk.edu 
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 : >: rate := per capita rate. the uk is more dangerous. : >: though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun, the average : >: individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed : >: by whatever means as the average swiss. would you feel any better : >: about being killed by means other than a handgun? i wouldn't. : >what an absurd argument. switzerland is one-fifth the size of the : >uk with one-eigth as many people therefore at any given point on : >swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait. more importantly, : >you are 4x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching : >you on a swiss street than in the uk. : you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total : number. rates are expressed, often, as #/100,000 population. : therefore, if a place had 10 deaths and a population of 100,000, the : rate would be 10/100,000. a place that had 50 deaths and a population : of 1,000,000 would hav a rate of 5/100,000. the former has a higher : rate, the latter a higher total. you are less likely to die in the : latter. simple enuff? for chrissakes, take out your calculator and work out the numbers. here... i've preformatted them for you to make it easier: handgun homicides/population switzerland : 24 / 6,350,000 uk : 8 / 55,670,000 ... and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without...by rate or total number. your choice. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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 : > last year the us suffered almost 10,000 wrongful or accidental : > deaths by handguns alone (fbi statistics). in the same year, the uk : > suffered 35 such deaths (scotland yard statistics). the population : > of the uk is about 1/5 that of the us (10,000 / (35 * 5)). weighted : > for population, the us has 57x as many handgun-related deaths as the : > uk. and, no, the brits don't make up for this by murdering 57x as : > many people with baseball bats. : you just can't compare this way! all homicides must be shown, per capita, not : just handguns. the availability of them in the usa makes them the preferred : murder weapon, but ban them, and some other weapon will step in as the : favorite. as a "favorite", sure. as lethal, not likely. a study of violence in chicago produced this table: percentage of reported gun and knife attacks resulting in death weapon deaths as percentage of attacks knives (16,518 total attacks) 2.4 guns (6,350 total attacks) 12.2 source: firearms and violence in american life it might be contended that if gun murderers were deprived of guns that they would find a way to kill as often with knives. if this were so, knife attacks in cities where guns were widely used in homicide would be expected to show a low fatality rate, and knife attacks in cities where guns were not so widely used (like vancouver) would show a higher fatality rate. but the nat'l commission on the causes and prevention of violence task force analyzed the data and found this not to be the case. it appeared to them that as the number of knife attacks increased in relation to the number of firearms attacks (which presumably happened where guns were less available to assailants), the proportion of fatal knife attacks did not increase relative to the proportion of gun attacks. in fact, the reverse was true. what was found was that most homicides did not show a determination on the part of the assailant to kill. fatalities caused by knife tended to show a single-mindedness on the part of the assailant to do grave physical injury: multiple stabs wounds, wounds concentrated about the head neck and chest, etc. most gun homicides did not show this pattern. rather, more fatal attacks were committed during a moment of rage and not the focused intent to kill the victim. source: report on firearms and violence : then, since england != usa (my ancestors left because of the oppression) you : must compare england before strict gun laws to england after strict gun laws to : be able to draw any meaning at all. england has essentially legalized drugs, : so there are no drug gangs battling for turf, etc., there. if you drop out the : drug related killings here, the usa would look a whole lot more peaceful. there are a lot of factors which make a difference. actually, i'm not fond of making any kind of social parallels between europeans and americans. there are more cultural, beahvioral and economic differences between us than similarities. i just sort of found myself backed into that corner over the last couple of weeks. i don't think we could ever attain the low levels of european violent crime here in the us, whether we banned guns or required every law-abiding citizen to carry a loaded uzi. on the other hand, we can draw lessons from neighbors who are more culturally similar, namely the canadians. in fact, an exhaustive, seven-year study has already been done of the respective crime rates of vancouver, british columbia and seattle, washington... cities with roughly the same population, urban economy, geography and crime but with decidedly different approaches to gun control. in seattle, handguns may be purchased legally for self-defense. after a 30-day waiting period, a permit can be obtained to carry a concealed weapon. the recreational use of handguns is minimally restricted. in vancouver, self-defense is not considered a valid or legal reason to purchase a handgun. concealed weapons are not permitted. recreational uses of handguns (target shooting, collecting) are regulated by the province. purchase of a handgun requires a restricted-weapons permit. a permit to carry may be obtained in order to transport the weapon to licensed shooting clubs. handguns transported by vehicle must be stored in the trunk in a locked box. in short, gun control but not unreasonably so. both cities aggressively enforce their gun laws. convictions for gun-related offenses carry similar penalties. the researchers studied all cases of robbery, assault (simple and aggravated), burglary and homicides occurring in seattle and vancouver from 1/1/80 to 12/31/86. in defining the cases, they used the same standard: the fbi's unified crime report. results: during the seven-year study the annual rate of robbery in seattle was found to be only slightly higher than that in vancouver (1.09 / 1.11). burglaries occurred at nearly identical rates (.99). 18,925 assaults were recorded in seattle versus 12,034 in vancouver. the risk of being a victim of a simple assault in seattle was found to be only slightly higher than vancouver (1.18 / 1.15) and the risk of aggravated assault was also slightly higher (1.16 / 1.12). however, when aggravated assaults were subdivided by weapon and the mechanism of assault, a clear pattern emerged. although both cities reported nearly identical rates of aggravated assault involving knives and other dangerous weapons, firearms were far more likely to be used in seattle. in fact, 7.7 times as often. over the seven-year study, 388 homicides occurred in seattle (11.3 per 100,000) vs. 204 homicides in vancouver (6.9 per 100,000). after adjustment for differences in age and sex among the populations, the relative risk of being a victim of homicide in seattle, as compared to vancouver, was found to be 1.63. when homicides were subdivided by the mechanism of death, the rate of homicide by knives and other weapons (excluding firearms) in seattle was found to be almost identical to that in vancouver. virtually all of the increased risk of death in seattle was due to a more than fivefold higher rate of homicide by firearms. handguns accounted for roughly 85% of homicides involving firearms. handguns were 4.8 times more likely to be used in homicides in seattle than in vancouver. the authors of the report also investigated "legally justifiable" homicides (self-defense). only 32 such homicides occurred during the seven-year study, 11 of which were committed by police. only 21 cases of civilians acting in self-defense occurrred: 17 in seattle and 4 in vancouver. only 13 involved firearms. after excluding these cases, there was virtually no impact on these earlier findings. this is, i feel, a very fair report. one might even make the argument that it is biased against canada as a whole because vancouver reports annual rates of homicide two to three times that of ottawa, calgary and toronto while seattle reports annual homicide rates only half to two-thirds that of nyc, chicago, los angeles and houston. critics of handgun control always argue that limited legal access to handguns will have little effect on the rates of homicide because persons intent on killing others will only try harder to acquire a gun or will kill by other means. this report shows differently. if the rate of homicide in a community were influenced more by the strength of intent than by the availability of weapons, we could expect the rate of homicides by weapons other than guns to be higher in vancouver than in seattle. however, during the study interval, vancouver's rate of homicide by weapons other than guns was not significantly higher than that in seattle, suggesting that few would-be assailants switched to homicide by other methods. as well, ready access to handguns for self-defense by law-abiding citizens was not endorsed in this report. although seattle did experience a higher rate of firearm death for self-defense, these cases accounted for less than 4% of the homicides in both cities during the course of the study period. and, as was reported, seattle apparently didn't enjoy relief from any crime category over vancouver because citizens may legally arm themselves for self-defense. heavily quoted source: handgun regulation, crime, assaults, and homicide: a tale of two cities. john h. sloan, arthur l. kellerman, donald t. reay, james a. ferris, thomas koepsall, frederick p. rivara, charles rice, laurel gray and james logerfo stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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 : frank crary posted: : : sure, but the difference in per-capita crime rates predates the : : gun control laws: the homicide rate in england was a tenth that : : of america, back when anyone in england could buy a gun without : : any paperwork at all. : steve manes asks: : > got a citation for this? : colin greenwood from scotland yard did a study that showed that gun : control has had no effect on crime or murder rates in the uk. his book, : _firearms_controls_, has been published in london by keegan paul (name : may be misspelled). others dispute that, like richard hofstadter, <america as a gun culture>, and newton and zimring's <firearms and violence in american life>. but, again, statistics between too dissimilar cultures are difficult to i don't know how anyone can state that gun control could have no effect on homicide rates. there were over 250 >accidental< handgun homicides in america in 1990, most with licensed weapons. more american children accidentally shot other children last year (15) than all the handgun homicides in great britain. (source: national safety council. please... no dictionary arguments about rates vs total numbers, okay? they're offered for emphasis, not comparison). if mr. greenwood believes that brits are much too sober and coordinated to make such mistakes i'd like to introduce him to my friend, amanda from brighton. i used to have some pretty nice crystal in my place until she moved in. i've gotten used to the snide comments from guests about the clown motif on my rubber wine glasses. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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 ever notice that people in these cases are always described by clever handles such as "eccentric", "religious wackos", "gun nuts", "cultists", "survivalists", etc. so the general public will *not* identify with them? the san jose mercury news described him as "a 61-year old retired chemical engineer". john nagle 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53299">
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 : >: rate := per capita rate. the uk is more dangerous. : >: though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun, the average : >: individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed : >: by whatever means as the average swiss. would you feel any better : >: about being killed by means other than a handgun? i wouldn't. : >what an absurd argument. switzerland is one-fifth the size of the : >uk with one-eigth as many people therefore at any given point on : >swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait. more importantly, : >you are 4x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching : >you on a swiss street than in the uk. killed by handgun, or killed? if i'm dead, i don't much care if it was by being shot or stabbed to death. : you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total : number. rates are expressed, often, as #/100,000 population. : therefore, if a place had 10 deaths and a population of 100,000, the : rate would be 10/100,000. a place that had 50 deaths and a population : of 1,000,000 would hav a rate of 5/100,000. the former has a higher : rate, the latter a higher total. you are less likely to die in the : latter. simple enuff? for chrissakes, take out your calculator and work out the numbers. here... i've preformatted them for you to make it easier: handgun homicides/population switzerland : 24 / 6,350,000 uk : 8 / 55,670,000 ... and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without...by rate or total number. your choice. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o i don't think you can get an accurate indicator of how safe england is compared to switzerland by concentrating only on handgun murders and completely ignoring murders by other weapons, not to mention the rate of other violent crimes. if there are more guns in circulation, if follows that more people will be killed with them 'cause they are available to the person intent on committing a crime _regardless_ of whether they have to do it with a gun, knife, or bare hands. the gun control lobby doesn't seem to understand this point. if people are intent on committing a crime, they will do it with whatever means are available to them. arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 a associated press news story 3/28/93 reports: " in other developments saturday, david troy, intelligence chief for the atf, confirmed reports that authorities suspected the cult had a methamphetamine lab. he said evidence of possible drug activity surfaced late in the atf' investigation of the cult's gun dealings. wow, the scope of the mission of the atf continues to expand. besides alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, they now seem to be involded in child protective services, drug enforcement and tax evasion. they look to be on the road to being the nations *boys in blue*! no knock in one hand, m-16 in the other. zeik-heil!!! | lance w. bledsoe lwb@im4u.cs.utexas.edu (512) 258-0112 | | "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." | 
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 i'm writing a story on the future of gun control. there are a few points i would welcome your opinion on. it's wonderful having a resource like this newsgroup to take advantage of and i thank you in advance for your feedback! 1. what do you believe are the most serious threats to gun-owners in the * the government * liberals * batf, fbi, dea, etc. (see #1) 2. are you concerned that the 2nd ammendment could be reinterpreted to apply to the armed forces only, barring civilians from owning arms of any kind? well... contributions == taxes abortion == elimination of fetal tissue clinton == president faggot == spouse it could happen... 3. if you did have control over what types of arms people would be allowed to buy, which types would you feel compelled to restrict to military uses only (ie. bazooka, m16, grenade, atomic bomb, etc.) hydrogen bomb, perhaps. 4. would you describe hci and all other gun control activists as being determined to make it illegal for a civilian to own or use a firearm? 5. have you personally read the brady bill in its entirety? thank again, | lance w. bledsoe lwb@im4u.cs.utexas.edu (512) 258-0112 | | "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." | 
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 in a previous article, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (brent irvine) says: come on, guys, looks like its time to move that juvenile public-post either to e-mail or to a different newsgroup (alt.sex.bondage.holly.silva?). no, brent that would be alt.sex.bondage.holly.silva.goofy.anti.semite.... :) if you were smarter, you'd have these opinions.... 
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 for those of you interested, i just finished talking with a representative of senator bob krueger's reelection campaign about his position on the rtkba. krueger was appointed by the democratic governor of texas to complete lloyd bentsen's unexpired term. the representative said that senator krueger did not have a position and would only comment on specific legislation that was pending. no comment was available on the various versions of the brady bill. be warned and vote accordingly. 
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 |> >obguns: i'm moving to arizona; everyone carries guns there. if i don't, what |> >are the approximate probabilities that i'll get shot by the end of six months? |> under 1 in 20,000 assuming fbi statistics are meaningfull. of course, if you're a criminal, or hang around with criminals, or flash large wads of cash in the wilder parts of town, or utter verbal bigotry in the right public places, your chances of being shot are much avoiding these behaviors, on the other hand, decreases your chances of being shot. something like 60% of all murders are criminals killing criminals. over 90% of murders are committed by people with a prior *known* history of violence. simplistic moral, suitable for my three year old, and most inane posters: "bad people do bad things - repeatedly." kirk hays - nra life, seventh generation. "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- edmund burke (1729-1797) 
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 i have a few questions i'd like to ask; first,how would someone(me)be able to get a dealers license and second,besides dear old departed gramp's,where would i find a good place to learn gunsmithing. all replies appreciated! 
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 this argument sounds very stupid.. if the ability to make guns from "simple metalworking" was easy, then drug dealers would make their own wouldn't they???.. why spend hundreds of dollars buying a gun that somebody else made cheap and is selling it to you at an exorbitant markup???... the simple truth of the matter is, that regardless of how easy it is to make guns, banning guns will reduce the the number of new guns and seriuosly impede the efforts of a killer intent on buying a weapon.... to show why the tools argument is the silliest i have ever seen.. take an analogy from computer science... almost every computer science major can write a "wordprocessor" yet we(comp sci majors) would willingly pay 3 to 400 bucks for a professional software like wordperfect... why don't we just all write our own software???...... because it is highly inconvinient!!!.. same with guns... secondly.. how does one get this gunpowder for the "home made gun" ??? take a quick trip to the local 7-eleven???. if guns were really that simple to make... the bosnian muslims would be very happy people (or is it the case that metalworking tools are banned in bosnia??? (deep sarcasm) ). well this is my two cents.. i will now resume reading all these ridiculus post from people who must make their living doing stand-up comedy. ** end of forwarded material ** and so, the rubber spheroid arced beneath the brilliant lights. headed for a hoop of dreams he'd dreamt of all those nights. the crowd gasped as the ball descended; would it grant their fondest wish? there was no doubt in casey's mind, he knew it was a *swish*! 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53322">
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 : that's all very well and good, but i was refering to all : homocides, not just ones involving handguns (what is this fixation : on death by shooting, as if it were somehow worse than death : by stabbing?) what relevance are all homicides in this debate?... the issue is guns, not baseball bats. no. the issue is reducing crime, not guns. if gun control doesn't lower crime overall, then is doesn't address the issue. ...even a simpleton knows that he stands a better chance of surviving an attack with a baseball bat... does that matter if assaults with a baseball bat become much more common? muggers using a gun rely primarily on the threat of the gun, and rarely shoot their victim. a mugger using a knife is much more likely to start by stabbing his victim in an effort incapacitate him. so, while a knif may not be as deadly as a gun, criminals are more likely to actually _use_ the knife (as opposed to threatening the victim with it.) it isn't at all clear that replacing the criminal's gun with a knife would reduce murders. stabbings might just become more common. that's why it is important to look at the overall (not the with-gun) homicide rate. it avoids the issue of substitution, different criminal techinques of using different weapons, etc... and measures what we want to prevent: murders. as for knives, see my earlier post. i'd much rather face a knife than a gun, thanks. "face"? possibly. however, facing knife-welding attackers isn't too common: stabbing without warning and by supprise is the usual tactic. very few criminals shoot from cover: it attracts to much attention and they don't have a chance to go through your pockets. overall, i'd much rather be threatened with a gun than actually stabbed with a knife. ...fortunately, the best defense against a knife isn't another knife. anyone trained in unarmed self-defense won't have much of a problem disarming a knife assailant untrained in knife assault (which probably means 99.9% of knife assailants). actually, the exact same statement is true of guns: training in unarmed self-defence will let you disarm an untrained gunman without much problem. you also ignore the criminal's reaction: the national crime survey clearly shows that criminals (unarmed, armed with a knife, gun or whatever) are unwilling to risk their lives in a confrontation. if faced with a serious threat, almost all prefer to leave and find an easier target. therefore, using (or threatening to use, as is much more commonly the case) a weapon _is_ the best defence against an attacker, regardless of how he is armed. knives, however, are much less effective than guns: criminals don't consider knifes as a "serious threat" nearly as often as they do guns. frank crary cu boulder 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53326">
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 on a los angeles radio station last weekend, the lawyers for the family of the murdered rancher said that the los angeles sheriff's department had an assessment done of the rancher's property before the raid. this strongly implies that the sheriff's department wanted the property; any drugs (which were not found) were only an excuse. in viet nam, lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops, in a war setting, deliberately killed innocent people. it is time that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military's. greed killed the rancher, possibly greed killed the davidian children. government greed. it is time to prosecute the leaders who perform these invasions. fred franceschi (these are my own opinions!) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53327">
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 : >: > last year the us suffered almost 10,000 wrongful or accidental : >: > deaths by handguns alone (fbi statistics). in the same year, the uk : >: > suffered 35 such deaths (scotland yard statistics). the population : >: > of the uk is about 1/5 that of the us (10,000 / (35 * 5)). weighted : >: > for population, the us has 57x as many handgun-related deaths as the : >: > uk. and, no, the brits don't make up for this by murdering 57x as : >: > many people with baseball bats. : [snip] : if you examine the figures, they do. stabbing is favourite, closely : followed by striking, punching, kicking. many more people are burnt to : death in britain as are shot to death. take at look and you'll see for : yourself. it means that very few people are shot to death in great britain. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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 : in article <c4u3x5.fw7@magpie.linknet.com> manes@magpie.linknet.com (steve : > i don't know how anyone can state that gun control could have no : > effect on homicide rates. there were over 250 >accidental< handgun : > homicides in america in 1990, most with licensed weapons. more : > american children accidentally shot other children last year (15) : > than all the handgun homicides in great britain. (source: national : > safety council. please... no dictionary arguments about rates vs : > total numbers, okay? they're offered for emphasis, not comparison). : you're a great debater. you chose your sources of information, claim them : to be superior, i've made no such claim. please direct my attention towards any posting of mine where i claimed superior sources of information. it's probably because i bothered to post any references at all while others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone, that you've confused it with fact-twisting. if so, i apologize. : then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying well then, here's fair opportunity for you to prove that i've "twisted numbers." on what grounds do you contradict those references? do you have any citations... any sources of your own that i can take similar gratuitous shots at? : to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population : differences, the usa and gb, and then whine that you are afraid someone might : attack your process, and so claim the numbers are for "emphasis, not : comparison"? emphasis of what? nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style, jim. : anything else is blowing smoke. you seddit, brudda. stephen manes manes@magpie.linknet.com manes and associates new york, ny, usa =o&>o 
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 i suppose that's true if you maintain that ak-47s and ar-15s are hunting weapons. i think they are fun to "plink" cans/targets/random vc with, but not suitable for "real" hunting. wrong. both are legal to hunt with here in kentucky. i have a picture of a friend with a nice 8-point buck which he shot with his ar-15 rifle. i don't think many deer hunters would condone your friends choice of i must agree with nathan. as a deer hunter, i find it inhumane to use underpowered weapons for deer hunting. to kill cleanly with the little .223 requires extremely good marksmanship. most hunting situations don't allow for "perfect" shots. hunters should use sufficiently powerful weapons to drop the deer with a single hit to the chest. the 7.62x39 from the aks-47 or sks is adequate to this task, having similar ballistics to the familiar 30-30, but the little .223 is very marginal. in the hands of the expert, or the lucky, it will do, but hunters really should have more respect for their quarry. i'll agree that the popular 55 gr. loading for .223 rem. is too small for deer-sized game. however, if you use a 70 gr. semi-spritzer or the sierra 63 gr. semi-pointed bullet this would be suitable (like any round, you keep your shots within a reasonable range). it would still be on the lower end of what i'd consider acceptable performance, especially those long distance shots out west hunting monster mule deer. the .223 rem. has been declared legal for deer hunting in oklahoma. the .223 is excellent for varmit hunting and pest control. the ar-15 in particular is well suited, given its heavy barrel and heat shielded foregrip. add a high-power scope, and you're in "dog heaven". however, i don't think nathan janette was refering to the specific chambering of the rifle in question. maybe he thinks self loading rifles have no place in deer hunting. that may (or may not) be his opinion, but many sportsmen do use self loading rifles and shotguns. wrongo, nra man. i was definitely referring to the round, not the auto-loading aspect of the rifle. i have no problem with *responsible* hunting. that doesn't include machine guns from choppers, but a semi is fine. my uncle has bagged several deer with 12 gauge slugs. i would prefer that a hunter use as much of the catch as possible, and i don't condone hunting for "sport" only. imho, of course. two questions: 1) you asserted that both the ar-15 and ak-47 are not suitable for "real hunting". if you have no problem with hunting, or using self loading rifles for hunting, why did you say this? if not for deer, then what about other, smaller game? 2) when did i get the nickname "nra man"? notice i have never referred to you as "janette" which you don't seem to like. do i get any super-powers, like spider man or powdered toast man? scott kennedy brewer, patriot, and now nra-man, defender of truth, justice, and the 2nd amendment. kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu 
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 |> on a los angeles radio station last weekend, the lawyers for the |> family of the murdered rancher said that the los angeles sheriff's |> department had an assessment done of the rancher's property before |> the raid. the briefing documents for the raid had a notation on them about a similar local property which had sold for $800,000 prior to the raid, if recent tv coverage can be believed. |> this strongly implies that the sheriff's department wanted the property; |> any drugs (which were not found) were only an excuse. the ventura county da came to the same conclusion in the report he released, which lambasted the sheriff's office. too bad the old man was nearly blind, and didn't take a few goose-stepping drug warriors (tm) with him. kirk hays - nra life, seventh generation. "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- edmund burke (1729-1797) 
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 in viet nam, lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops, in a war setting, deliberately killed innocent people. it is that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military's. no, lt calley was later acquitted. his troops killed 400-500 people, including kids, elderly and women... i sure don't want to see the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to those "military standards"... if they did, we're all in big trouble...(the my lai massacre was covered up by high-ranking officials and all who were involved were acquitted). == minh == minh lang, software engineer - jet propulsion laboratory instrumentation systems group - instrumentation section 375 note: my employer has nothing to do with what i said here... 
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 here is a press release from handgun control inc. sarah brady calls on governor to veto nra bill; bayh urged to follow clinton's lead to: state desk contact: cheryl brolin of handgun control inc., 202-898-0792 washington, april 2 -- in a letter today to indiana gov. evan bayh, sarah brady, wife of former white house press secretary james brady and chair of handgun control inc., called on the governor to veto nra-backed "preemption" legislation (s.b. 241), which would wipe out existing local gun laws and prohibit localities from enacting future regulations governing the sale, possession or transfer of firearms. "i'm counting on gov. bayh to show the same kind of political courage president clinton showed as governor of arkansas, when he twice vetoed this type of special-interest legislation," mrs. brady said, referring to clinton's veto of nra-backed preemption bills in 1989 and 1991. i knew that cutie would sell us out. full-blooded democrat, he is :-) seriously folks, if it can happen here (remember? we all got gun racks on our 4x4s), it can happen anywhere. now to get that letter ready. `dear cutie, as one who didn't vote for you, i can sincerely say i am unhappy...' -30- nigel allen, toronto, ontario, canada nigel.allen@canrem.com canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 those who know what's best for us must try to save us from ourselves -- rush | jason alley || the opinions expressed were given to me | | earlham college, richmond in || by aliens living in my pancreas. | | alleyja@yang.earlham.edu || the empire never ended. | 
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 the possession of nuclear arms (actually weapons grade fissionables) is currently regulated only by market forces. i.e.: to own them you have to either make them, buy them or steal them. the only thing that stops you is the staggering cost (more than most nations can afford), the fact that no one who has them wants to sell to you and the tight security maintained on existing stocks. (just ask saddam hussein). i was under the impression that to obtain fissionable materials (i.e., plutonium or reactor/weapons-grade uranium) one was required to obtain a federal permit to own such materials. given a source of fissionables, you can build a bomb in your garage with parts from hardware stores and electronic junk supplies. you might have to engage in some shady dealings to get the explosive charge, but that's trivial compared to getting the plutonium. the basic information on the design was declassified years ago and can be dug out of any technical library by a physics grad student. actually, why bother looking it up? from the material we covered last term (in 10 weeks) of ge/ch 127 (nuclear chemistry), i could *derive* what it would take to build a bomb. and as far as the explosive charge, i (as a chemist) could synthesize a variety of explosives from commonly available chemicals in the garage if i felt like. the electronics behind the detonator and the shaped charges are a little trickier, however . . . but not impossible using a few "tricks of the trade." and if i really wanted to be nasty, i could include a core of hydrogen and deuterium . . . of course, the hardest part is getting the fissionable material to start with, and living long enough to put a bomb together. (plutonium has some *nasty* properties . . .) the polymath (aka: jerry hollombe, m.a., cdp, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) head robot wrangler at citicorp laws define crime. 3100 ocean park blvd. (310) 450-9111, x2483 police enforce laws. santa monica, ca 90405 citizens prevent crime. arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle? i'm a great admirer of the swiss, but 500 years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership. can you picture hitler, with panzers and focke-wulfs poised on the border, losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman? sure. hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this world. we'd do well to emulate them on that and forget about getting more rifles on the street. let's disband the nra and start a national investment banking association, replete with red and black sticker for the back window of bubba's mercedes 600! we could fire charlton heston and get paul volcker for a spokesman. 
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 does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle? i'm a great admirer of the swiss, but 500 years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership. can you picture hitler, with panzers and focke-wulfs poised on the border, losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman? sure. the swiss population is (and well was) far larger than that. i think your question should be, "...losing sleep over a million expert riflemen?" certainly he could have conquered switzerland, but a million armed militiamen (especially in a mountainous area, where tanks' effectiveness is limited) would have made it a real pain. the question a conqueror would ask, is "is it worth the trouble?" the more difficult an invasion is, the more likely the answer would be "no." certainly a million riflemen (as opposed to a professional army of only ten or twenty thousand, the best a country the size of switzerland could support), makes invasions more difficult. hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this really? in 1939? i'm not even sure you could prove that today (despite the steriotype.) certainly the swiss bankers were not essential to the german war-time economy. frank crary cu boulder 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53344">
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 i was under the impression that to obtain fissionable materials (i.e., plutonium or reactor/weapons-grade uranium) one was required to obtain a federal permit to own such materials. no, you merely have to start working on yellowcake or else devise a system to get it from other sources. btw: the doe handles reactor fuel, and merely leases it to reactors. the nrc certifies these reactors. the military have their own sources. a private citizen has none of these official sources. actually, why bother looking it up? from the material we covered last term (in 10 weeks) of ge/ch 127 (nuclear chemistry), i could *derive* what it would take to build a bomb. that's freshman-level chemistry. big deal. can you make it work? that's phd-level physics. big difference. and as far as the explosive charge, i (as a chemist) could synthesize a variety of explosives from commonly available chemicals in the garage if i felt like. the electronics behind the detonator and the shaped charges are a little trickier, however . . . but not impossible using a few "tricks of the trade." and if i really wanted to be nasty, i could include a core of hydrogen and deuterium . . . so you admit that there's no law that could stop you? physics aside, could you make one if you had the funds and time? the answer is yes. so, do we lock you up now because of this? surely you can see where the comparison with anti-gun laws comes into play here? of course, the hardest part is getting the fissionable material to start with, and living long enough to put a bomb together. (plutonium has some *nasty* properties . . .) precisely why it's not as readily utilized as you seem to have been lead to believe. btw: 98% u235 is far better for home-made bombs than trying to use plutonium. the laws of physics make the creation of a device without serious manufacturing facilities very low in probability. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53345">
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 if she *needs* a gun right now, why doesn't she already have one? you are the victim of a cut-and-run purse-snatcher. he makes off with your purse, containing your id, your house keys... and your gun. so you're saying she can run right into a store, buy a gun, run back outside and shoot the guy in the back as he runs off? this doesn't no, he's saying she just lost her gun and she wants to buy another so that as she sits home alone tonight, she's not a sitting duck to any bastard who wants to break in. in fact, the situation is more grim that that, even. the purse snatcher now has her home address. if the woman lives alone, she is in great personal danger. 
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 in viet nam, lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops, in a war setting, deliberately killed innocent people. it is time that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military's. here! here! but any call for responsibility and accountability from police is invariably interpreted as being "soft on crime". being "tough on crime" and building more prisons and seizing more property is the politically astute thing to do these days. greed killed the rancher, possibly greed killed the davidian children. government greed. and citizen complacency! it is time to prosecute the leaders who perform these invasions. don't forget the politicians that write the laws that make it easy for the police agencies to become corrupt. the war on some drugs brought us this corruption and only an end to it (legalization) will stop the corruption. 
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 : >: > last year the us suffered almost 10,000 wrongful or accidental : >: > deaths by handguns alone (fbi statistics). in the same year, the uk : >: > suffered 35 such deaths (scotland yard statistics). the population : >: > of the uk is about 1/5 that of the us (10,000 / (35 * 5)). weighted : >: > for population, the us has 57x as many handgun-related deaths as the : >: > uk. and, no, the brits don't make up for this by murdering 57x as : >: > many people with baseball bats. : if you examine the figures, they do. stabbing is favourite, closely : followed by striking, punching, kicking. many more people are burnt to : death in britain as are shot to death. take at look and you'll see for : yourself. it means that very few people are shot to death in great britain. and i'm sure that is a great comfort to the widows and children of those stabbed, beaten and burned to death. the real question is, "did the crime rate in england go down, after they enacted gun control laws?" if you look at the rates before and after their first such law in 1920, you will see no effect. frank crary cu boulder 
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 wasn't she the one making the comment in '88 about george being born with a silver foot in his mouth? sounds like another damn politician to me. ain't like the old days in texas anymore. the politicians may have been corrupt then, but at least they'd take a stand. (my apologies to a few exceptions i can think of.) news now is that the house may already have a two-thirds majority, so her "opposition" out of her concern for image (she's even said this publicly) may not matter. do people expect the texans congressmen to act as the n.j. republicans did? there is a (likely) veto proof majority in the house. the senate, unfortunately, is a different story. the lt.gov. has vowed that the bill will not be voted on, and he has the power to do it. in addition, the senate is a much smaller, and more readily manipulated body. on ther other hand, the semi-automatic ban will likely not live, as at least fifty per cent of the house currently opposes it, and it is very far down in the bill order in the senate (i believe it will be addressed after the ccw bill). and i thought my tx political science class was a waste of time! dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |god gave us weather so we wouldn't complain pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |about other things. padi dm-54909 | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53356">
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 : >: rate := per capita rate. the uk is more dangerous. : >: though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun, the average : >: individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed : >: by whatever means as the average swiss. would you feel any better : >: about being killed by means other than a handgun? i wouldn't. : >what an absurd argument. switzerland is one-fifth the size of the : >uk with one-eigth as many people therefore at any given point on : >swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait. more importantly, : >you are 4x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching : >you on a swiss street than in the uk. : you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total : number. rates are expressed, often, as #/100,000 population. : therefore, if a place had 10 deaths and a population of 100,000, the : rate would be 10/100,000. a place that had 50 deaths and a population : of 1,000,000 would hav a rate of 5/100,000. the former has a higher : rate, the latter a higher total. you are less likely to die in the : latter. simple enuff? for chrissakes, take out your calculator and work out the numbers. here... i've preformatted them for you to make it easier: handgun homicides/population switzerland : 24 / 6,350,000 uk : 8 / 55,670,000 .... and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without...by rate or total number. your choice. if you want to talk "less likely to get killed with a handgun" you'd have a point. "safer" includes other things than simply handguns, and you can't conclude "safer" by ignoring them. now if somebody's got the total homicide rates... david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (mail to veal@utkvm1.utk.edu will bounce.) "taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed." - lazarus long 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53358">
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 yes, i am pro-gun, and yes, i do disagree with this statement. nuclear weapons in and of themselves are dangerous. radioactive decay of plutonium and uranium, as well as the tritium in the weapon, tends to be somewhat dangerous to living things. (can you say "neutron flux"?) can you say, "i get more background radiation from living in denver or having an office in a limestone building than i do standing next to a power reactor at full power or standing next to a nuclear warhead that is armed?" look up "shielding" in your dictionary. you don't need six feet of lead to make decent shielding; your dead skin cell layer does an excellent job on alpha particles, and neutrons are slowed by mere *water*. what do you think 75% of you is? but whatever the neutrons hit has a good chance of absorbing the neutron and becoming radioactive itself. mostly, that means water turning into (harmless) heavy water. but some neutrons would also hit bones, and the resulting harmfull, secondard radioactives would remain in the body for decades. i think an unshielded nuclear warhead could reasonably be considered a public health hazard. as for a shielded warhead, i think a fair amount of maintaince is required for it to remain safely shielded (e.g. storage in a dry, temperature-regulated facility, etc...) for private ownership to be unregulated, i think a single individual must be able not only to keep the weapon, but keep it in a safe condition. if any random private citizen could not properly keep, maintain and store a nuclear weapon, then some regulation is clearly appropriate. plus these things have no self- defense purposes. it's kinda hard to justify their use as a militia weapon when at best they are meant for battlefield use (low-yield weapons) or at worst for industrial target obliteration (translation: cities and population centers). if the militia has as its job the overthrow of an illegal government, they are indeed useful weapons to the militia. i disagree with this purpose: the job of the militia is to defend themselves and their community. if you look at the american revolution as an example, the militias won by seperating themselves from, and becoming independent of, a repressive government. they didn't overthrow it, and those communities (canada and england, for example) that didn't defend themselves were still under that same old regime. if the role of the militia were offensive, to go out and destroy repressive governments, nuclear weapons _might_ be appropriate. but their jobs is defensive, and nuclear weapons aren't suited for that. there is also the question of personal and collective arms: the second amendment definately protects ownership of personal weapons (since the very nature of the militia requires members to provide their own arms.) but it isn't clear if it covers other arms. certainly, not all members would supply (for example) a tank, only a few could or (if they were to be used effectively) should. however, those providing the heavy weapons have a disproportionate control over the militia and its fierpower. the militias, as the framers envisioned them, were extremely democratic: if only 50% of the members supported the cause, only 50% would respond to a muster, and the militia's firepower would be proportionately reduced. militia firepower and the popular will were, therefore, linked. but if a small minority of the members supplied a large fraction of the firepower (in the form of heavy weapons) this would all change: the militia's firepower would depend on the will of a small minority, not of the general public. worse, that minority would be quite different from the general public (at the very least, they would be much richer.) as a result, i think the nature and character of the militia requires that each member provide a roughly equal share of the militia's firepower: his personal weapons, and some equitable fraction of a squad's heavier firepower. frank crary cu boulder 
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 in a previous article, nigel.allen@canrem.com ("nigel allen") says: here is a press release from handgun control inc. statement of sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed to: state desk contact: susan whitmore of handgun control inc., 202-898-0792 washington, march 25 -- following is a statement of sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation: "a handful of lawmakers in austin today have told the public that their safety is of less importance than the interests of the national rifle association. this action comes as local, state and federal law enforcement officials continue their stand-off with a religious cult that has highlighted the need for tougher gun laws, not weaker ones like the carry concealed bill. "a handful of anti-gun zealots are telling the public that their right to self-defense is of less importance than the interests of handgun control, inc. this action comes as local, state and federal law enforcement officials continue their assault on the branch davidian compound--an assault which has already resulted in the death of one two year old child at the hands of federal agents. this has highlighted the need for citizens to be able to defend themselves and their children against the excesses of their own government." "any suggestion by proponents that this bill will help to reduce crime is a distortion of the facts, at best. this so-called crime-fighting law has resulted in a 16 percent increase in violent crime in the state of florida, and i have never heard law enforcement officials bragging that more guns on the streets is the way to reduce "any suggestion by opponents that this bill will increase crime is a distortion of the facts, at best. the aggressive outreach by officials in central florida to train and arm women has led to a dramatic drop in the level of assault and rape in that area. of course, this program is a rare gem, as many law enforcement officials apparently believe that an unarmed citizenry will be easier to control, and thus favor tighter restrictions." "the vote today is an insult to the law enforcement officials who are putting their lives on the line every day to end the standoff in waco. the entire country now knows just how easy it is for an individual bent on destruction to amass an arsenal of weapons. texas lawmakers who voted for this concealed handgun bill have shown total disregard for those law officials on the front lines, and the families of those who have fallen. "the vote today is a tribute to the good sense of the public at large who are putting their lives on the line every day as they go about their lawful affairs. the entire country knows how vulnerable the average citizen is, both to attacks from criminals and from armed assault by our own police. texas lawmakers who voted for this concealed handgun bill have shown total understanding for those innocent, law-abiding citizens on the front lines, and the families of those who have fallen." "i urge the house of representatives to listen to the 70 percent of texans that oppose this measure, and reject this ill-conceived legislation." "i urge the house of representatives to pay attention to the needs of their constituents, and not be stampeded by ill-conceived arguments from ideological fanatics." -30- nigel allen, toronto, ontario nigel.allen@canrem.com canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 ain't propaganda fun? the opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very carefully thought out. it is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the university of iowa or case western reserve university. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53361">
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 as quoted from <1993apr5.172734.8744@icd.ab.com> by kdw@icd.ab.com (kenneth d. whitehead): questions for the media and the politically correct: try asking people who don't understand why anyone would worry about the tactics used against the "child molesting, drug dealing, gun running, cop killing religious wackos in waco" (1) these questions: if the people in the compound were black and the guys in ninja suits charging in with assault weapons and grenades were lapd what would you think? the charges are essentially the same they used against operation move in philadelphia a few years back, where the cops dropped an incendiary bomb on the roof of a tenement and burned down a whole block. move was a black group. there were some significant differences. whereas the branch davidians are reported to have gotten along rather well with their neighbors, the move people are generally conceded to have gone far out of the way to antagonize their black neighbors, using loudspeakers to all hours of the night, keeping large piles of garbage, promoting rat and insect infestation, and allegedly threatening to kidnap their neighbors' children. still the same sort of questions regarding use of force remain in that case. "you're like a bunch of over-educated, new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas" - holly silva 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53363">
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 what relevance are all homicides in this debate? what do you think gun control advocates are saying: that if we get rid of all handguns we will live in a homicide-free world? they sure make it sound like that. the issue is guns, not baseball bats. even a simpleton knows that he stands a better chance of surviving an attack with a baseball bat... certainly of outrunning a bat-wielding assailant. even a simpleton knows a baseball bat is considered a deadly weapon. if one cannot run away (e.g. old, infirm, even middle-aged if the assailant is younger), a handgun is the most effective means of defense. you won't even have to fire a shot 98% of the time. as for knives, see my earlier post. i'd much rather face a knife than a gun, thanks. fortunately, the best defense against a knife isn't another knife. anyone trained in unarmed self-defense won't have much of a problem disarming a knife assailant untrained in knife assault (which probably means 99.9% of knife assailants). any real streetfighter (and there are lots of them), with or without a knife, will kick the living sh** out of most people "trained in unarmed self defense". for the majority of people, a gun is the most effective form of self defense. [standard disclaimer] 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53366">
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 well, i dropped by the library yesterday, and picked up back copies of the national crime survey (1986-1990) in an effort to examine what it said about self-defense with a firearm. i haven't ground through much in the way of numbers yet, but a couple of things jumped out at me. first only 1986 and 1987 specify the type of weapon used in self defense. 1988, 1989, and 1990 refer only to "weapon." the second is that while assaults rose about 3% from 1986 to 1987, w/gun defenses reported *fell* by almost 25%. unless there's an explanation for this, i'm tempted to mark it as a reporting problem, and as such going ahead with any examination of the numbers would be a waste of time. anybody have an idea what might have cause a real difference, and not just a reporting difference? the survey doesn't appear to have changed significantly between 1986 and 1987. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53368">
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 : the swiss population is (and well was) far larger than that. i think : your question should be, "...losing sleep over a million expert : riflemen?" certainly he could have conquered switzerland, but : a million armed militiamen (especially in a mountainous area, : where tanks' effectiveness is limited) would have made it a : real pain. the question a conqueror would ask, is "is it worth : the trouble?" the more difficult an invasion is, the more likely : the answer would be "no." certainly a million riflemen (as : opposed to a professional army of only ten or twenty thousand, the : best a country the size of switzerland could support), makes : invasions more difficult. hitler invaded yugoslavia and occupied it. the mountainous portions were sometimes patrolled by the wermacht, but they were certainly not in control. there were two major native factions opposing each other and the germans, it was basically useless to the germans (no production) and a drain on their resources (a armored division and a couple of infantry divisions) which if my memory is correct, were kind of stuck there up until the allies accepted their surrender. (i think that the allies also let the germans keep some of their weapons for self defense unitil they were able to get to the lowlands, away from the resistance factions. this is from memory, and it is unreliable. --dale farmer 
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 i believe in gun control. how about you? i believe in gun control, too . . . assuming by "gun control" you mean always being able to hit your target. ---peter or, how about the clint eastwood line in "pink cadillac" - "i believe in gun control. if there's a gun around, i wanna be the one controlling it." [standard disclaimer] 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53370">
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 : well, as neal knox of the firearms coalition points out, the full : force of the anti-gun ruling class, their multi-millions, their : polling organizations, their schools, their news media, their : "entertainment" media the entertainment media... a "force of the anti-gun ruling class"?? is this the same media that's made billions producing films and television that glorify guns and gun users? or is that another anti-gun media? you've got to be kidding. i'm afraid he isn't. they are a hypocritical lot. [standard disclaimer] 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns53371">
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 does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle? i'm a great admirer of the swiss, but 500 years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership. can you picture hitler, with panzers and focke-wulfs poised on the border, losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman? not just because of the riflemen. they also have many hard bunkers in the mountains that would be nearly impossible to penetrate. as for tanks, they would be rather useless in such mountainous terrain. hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this gee, that's a new one. he thought it was a different ethnic group. since hitler was determined to control, at the least, all of europe, do you think he gave a damn about international monetary concerns? also, there's a lot of gold in swiss vaults. don't you think he new that? if he could have, he would have taken switzerland. however, crazy as he was, he wasn't totally stupid. it would have cost him a hell of a lot to take switzerland, with no guarantee that an invasion would be successful. he probably figured (or his generals did, when he was listening to them) that it wasn't worth the cost. [standard disclaimer] 
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 i would be surprised if there weren't contrary studies. i might add that sloan and kellerman was endorsed by the police departments of both seattle and vancouver and is considered by most of the references i have at hand the most exhaustive study of its kind, even by those who take issue with some of the essay's conclusions. s&k's statistics speak largely for themselves without postulate. and, i might add, vitamin c has been endorsed by a nobel laureate as a panacea for almost everything from the common cold to cancer. in order to compare violent crime trends, s&k compared >all< violent crime categories, from simple assault through various mechanisms of wait a minute. s&k did not compare trends. if they did, they would have seen that the advent of canada's gun law had no effect on homicides, total or handgun. without a pre- vs. post comparison, one cannot speculate as to the utility of anything. all they have is a correlation, and correlation does not prove causality. if your point is that non-whites commit more handgun crimes than whites then yours is the dubious assumption. conventional social theory is that economic status, not color, is the primary motivating factor for crime, especially violent crime. what's your point anyway, that white people are more responsible gun owners? should we assume that it's a coincidence that there are comparitively fewer white people earning below the poverty line and living in tenement neighborhoods where most violent crime occurs? hold it again. you dismiss a point about demographics, then you ask about socio-economic demographics? very slick. : differences between the two cities in the : permit regulations render these two numbers strictly noncomparable. on the contrary, it's these differences that are the very basis of the study: the easy availability of legal handguns in seattle and the much more difficult "restricted-weapons" permit required in vancouver. once again, correlation does not prove causality. looking at pre-vs. post data, the canadian gun law had no effect. not so. cook measures suicides and assaultive homicides with firearms against a survey-based estimate of the number of legal and illegal guns in circulation within a city. sir, if you were a canadian, and owned a gun before the restrictive gun laws were passed, and decided to hide it rather than turn it in, would you answer truthfully a question about gun ownership from someone who calls, writes, or asks you on the street? that is one problem with surveys. nobody will answer an incriminating question. another is that people will often tell you what they think you want to again, your author misses the core issue: that vancouver citizens are prohibited from purchasing handguns on the basis of self-defense. they don't have a choice in the matter. does that mean no vancouver citizens have handguns? i think not. you are discounting guns purchased beforehand, and guns purchased for purposes other than self-defense, which can also be used for defense. hmmm... sounds like your author might like a bumper sticker that reads "guns don't kill people, black people kill people!" honestly, his conjectures, backed up by zero evidence, zero studies and even less common sense, aren't worth the considerable time it must have taken you to type in. his assumptions look frighteningly close to those pseudo-scientific "studies" that the white supremist assholes love... the crap that takes published statistics, twisted around in an attempt to prove the inherent criminal nature of black people. he makes valid points about demographic differences. you then resort to the kind of argument that the "politically correct" movement often uses to stifle any debate. nice, real nice. this author's essay contains 0% independent study upon which to base his conclusions, just some strained, disjointed statistical discourse attempting to blame seattle's murder rate on blacks. one doesn't have to produce his own data in order to point out the flaws in the methodology and conclusions of another's study. again, you resort to pc tactics. [standard disclaimer] 
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 * thanks to the n.r.a., the a.t.f. is prohibited from researching the effectiveness of using taggants in explosives, taggants are a cheap and technologically feasible microscopic additive that would help investigators at crime scenes - like the world trade center bombing - trace the explosives involved. i want this man to tell me how in the hell you can take the explosives used in the wtc bombing, considering that the consensus seems to be that the explosive was a fertilizer-based proper counter to this claim: "forensic analysis of the wtc bomb by means of taggants would have been as impossible as semantic analysis of nyt editorials by means of taggants -- the difficulty in both cases being to have persuaded the bull to consume the taggants before production of either item." cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (david veal) says: don't be silly. of course you can. the police have everything the gangs have and then some. plus they've got access to the national guard (via the governor) if things get too rough. that's tanks for those of you who've never seen them at play. of course, they've got rifles and helicopters. and as far as fully-automatic weapons, you can be a lot better armed if you want to hit what you aim at. what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion. in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs. gang members. of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time? of course they don't and that's the point i was trying to make. every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in. the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers. not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat (i mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a disadvantage even with training. how so? i think you're making assumptions here that might not necessarily be true. -my- personal choice would be a semi-auto, but revolvers are just as effective, if not more so. i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were "practicing" shooting. they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren't doing too badly either. relevancy, please? you sound shocked, but that hardly proves anything. the university cops here (who are are state cops) are armed better than the chicago police. it seems most state cops are. i don't know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers. i think the situation is just a tad different here than there. wait, doesn't chicago have -serious- gun control? if so, why do the police need all that firepower in the first place? (sarcasm alert) all the patrol cars i've seen around here have shotguns clamped to the dash board. imho, that's all the police need to outgun just about `,` the crystal wind is the storm, and the storm is data, and the data `,` `,` is life -- the player's litany, from _the long run_ by d.k. moran `,` `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,` 
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 [deleted] [] and as far as fully-automatic weapons, you can be a lot better []armed if you want to hit what you aim at. what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion. in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs. gang members. of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time? of course they don't and that's the point i was trying to make. every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in. the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers. not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat (i mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a disadvantage even with training. i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were "practicing" shooting. they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren't doing too badly either. the university cops here (who are are state cops) are armed better than the chicago police. it seems most state cops are. define "armed better". go shoot a revolver and a semi-auto like the colt .45. does one fires faster than the other? nope. aside from which faster rate of fire is usually not desirable. sure it makes the other guys duck for cover, but just *you* trying hitting anything with a thompson in hose-mode. this is why the military is limiting it's m-16 now to 3-round burst-fire. simple semi-auto would be better, but the troops like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo (something often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful). a revolver is equally capable as a semi-auto in the same caliber. - a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again. - a double-action revolver (almost all of them) can be hand-cocked first, but will fire merely by pulling the trigger. - a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round. - a revolver can be carried with the 6th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety, but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion, even one handed. - speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi-autos. can be faster depending on users. - a misfire in a semi-auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first, time spent which can be fatal. and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize "hey, it's jammed!" before starting to do anything about clearing it. - most semi-autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer. some police carry their semi-autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked, but a safety engaged. i do not consider this safe however. you must trade-off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver. - there are some double-action semi-autos out there, but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training. some police departments switched to glocks, and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers. too many were having accidents, partly due to the poor training they received. not that glocks require rocket scientists, but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr. anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun the police don't know nothing about firearms. turn off cops and hunter and pay attention. i do not seek here to say "semi-autos are junk" merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid. a cop with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than equipped for anything short of a riot. gun control is hitting what you aim at. if you whip out a wonder-nine and fire real fast you may find you don't hit anything. good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit. i own a 9mm beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon to something like the ruger security six revolver. if i haven't hit what i'm aiming at in the first 5 shots, something is quite seriously wrong somewheres. while i might like having the backup capacity of those extra shots in certain cases, overwhelmingly the # of shots fired in criminal encounters is less than 5. what do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime? why the same nice simple .38 revolvers that the police often use. well actually some police prefer the much heftier .357 magnum, but anyway..... obplea: don't flame me, i prefer semi-autos for most things. but they introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve-wracking as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal. "if everything had gone as planned, everything would have been perfect." -batf spokesperson on cnn 3/2/93, regarding failed raid attempt in tx. 
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 [deleted] the university cops here (who are are state cops) are armed better than the chicago police. it seems most state cops are. i don't know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers. i think the situation is just a tad different here than there. which crap, the ridiculous assertions that uzis are mowing down cops right and left? the assertions that dialing 911 should be the proper and only option available to the law-abiding citizens? a factoid: 56 cops were killed in the whole country last year. this is down from around 100 in the early '80s. wow, a real explosion in cop killings there eh? :-) "if everything had gone as planned, everything would have been perfect." -batf spokesperson on cnn 3/2/93, regarding failed raid attempt in tx. 
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 [deleted] the university cops here (who are are state cops) are armed better than the chicago police. it seems most state cops are. i don't know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers. i think the situation is just a tad different here than there. which crap, the ridiculous assertions that uzis are mowing down cops right and left? the assertions that dialing 911 should be the proper and only option available to the law-abiding citizens? a factoid: 56 cops were killed in the whole country last year. this is down from around 100 in the early '80s. wow, a real explosion in cop killings there eh? :-) well, if we're going to discuss being a police officer in america today. the fbi lists 132 police officers killed (feloniously and accidentally) in 1990. that's apparently everybody at all levels. year officers killed rate/100,000 police officers 1982 164* 47.6 1983 152** 40.2 1984 147 39.4 1985 148*** 37.9 1986 133 34.9 1987 148 39.0 1988 155**** 41.9 1989 145***** 38.1 1990 132 32.0 * includes one officer in mariana islands ** includes one officer each in guam and mariana islands *** includes one officer in guam and two in foreign locations **** includes one officer in american samoas and two in foreign countries ***** includes one officer in guam and one federal officer killed in god, i love the information age! :-) david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (paul prescod): drugs are banned, please tell me when this supply will dry up? drugs are easier to manufacture, easier to smuggle, easier to hide. no comparison. then let's use another example--alcoholic beverages. bottles of whiskey are larger, heavier, and more fragile than bags of drugs. barrels and kegs are larger and heavier still, and are difficult to manipulate. yet, a lot of people managed to get very rich off of the smuggling of booze into this country during the years of prohibition. there was a demand, so an entire industry formed to supply it. if alcohol were again banned today, it would be much more difficult to manage a large-scale smuggling operation. the cops now rank just a narrow notch below the military in communications, intelligence gathering and firepower. in a similar vein, the amount of marijuana smuggled into this country has greatly decreased. this is because its value-per-pound is very low when compared to cocaine or heroin. it's simply not worth the risk, it's uneconomical. now, most reefer is domestic. there is less pressure on the domestic producer (showy raids notwithstanding) and thus it is economical. here's a question: if most marijuana is domestic and producing it here is economical, why would we expect it to be of note though ... domestic reefer is now very strong, so a small volume goes a long way. you cannot make alcohol stronger than 200 proof - not a good dollar/pound deal. yet it was done. done quite successfully for a number of years. *somebody* thought it was worth the risk. firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area. it would not be economic to smuggle them in. your assumption is that this "low" dollar/pound area is sufficiently low as to make gun-running unprofitable. on what do you base this? and given that smuggling channels are already established, and given the economies of scale, would it really add significantly more expense to start smuggling firearms, especially considering doing so would be less hazardous (in terms of getting caught) than all production would have to be local. now *that* was a jump. in any case, define "local." it's a big country. there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch. high-ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such, but the average person, and average thug, would be lucky to get a zip-gun - and would pay through the nose for it. wow, you gotta love the speculation. as i posted before, we import billions upon billions of raw ores across the mexican border. not only that but ships come in and out of u.s. harbors every day full stuff. and customs doesn't even have the extra advantage of being able to sniff them out. i'd be willing to wager that a shipload of handguns would be worth more than a shipload of raw ore, *and* you're virtually guaranteed to get it past customs, because they'd have to hand search every hold of every ship which came through. it's not simply a matter of how much money are they worth, but how much *more* money are they worth than other goods, based on the likelihood of being caught. less money than drugs, but also a safer thing to smuggle. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 fox) says: this measure as it will prevent the evil bambi-killers from hunting, and another will fight it for the interference with nature that it is. such a measure would also have another benefit. it would relieve the various states of the thorny problem of what to do with the hundreds of millions of dollars hunters pour into the economy annually. i'm sure that, to attain sure a lofty, humane, liberal and ecologically (not to mention politically) correct goal, the environmental and animal rights groups/individuals supporting such a measure would be more than willing to add their names to a list of supporters seeking increased taxation to replace these lost revenues. i am equally confident that these same entities, given their noteworthy record in the area of social responsibility and respect for private property, would feel morally and ethically bound to raise the necessary funds to acquire the hundreds of thousands of acres of land now held in private hands solely for use as private hunting preserves by the landowner(s). to do less than this would place these same groups/individuals in the ethically untenable (to say nothing of environmentally and politically incorrect) position of sanctioning the logging and subsequent development and urbanization of these former private hunting lands, which would no longer be useable by, or of any benefit to, the landowner(s) in such a capacity. w. k. gorman 
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 |> how effective are personal defense products like mace, pepper-spray, |> tasers and other non-lethal "stun" devices compared to handguns? |> any statistics on #'s and types in use? |> these products seem very attractive compared to handguns |> because, being non-lethal, they are more "forgiving" of accident or |> mistakes/wrongful shooting (such as the yoshi hattori case), and |> allow the justice system to deal with the criminal (rather than |> criminals simply being _dead_, which has a certain "vigilante feel" |> which seems to bother anti-gun people). the "more forgiving" nature also has its down side; it allows a criminal to use them w/o the adw [assault with a deadly weapon] charge. they also can have lethal or dangerous side effects - - some people have violent reactions to mace/pepper sprays - stun guns can harm people with weak hearts - people have suffered eye damage from mace; the stuff that is available now is less concentrated than it used to be. - some of the spray propellents are flammable |> the arguments i see _against_ these non-lethal weapons compared to |> handguns are lack of range, lack of "stopping power" or effectiveness, |> and limited "ammo". true? how about cost? - using any of the spray based [eg mace, pepper] indoors is bound to affect anyone else in the room (like the victim) due to the nature of the stuff. - using the sprays outdoors in any sort of breeze mitigates its - from reading various articles, it appears that mace, especially the mace available to citizens, is pretty ineffective on people under the influence of drugs or alcohol. - pepper spray appears to be more effective, but has the inherent spray delivery problem. it still does not appear to be anything better than a distraction that might buy you time to run like hell [if you can]. consider that running like hell isn't always a viable solution. for example, if you are dressed in boots and the assailent is dressed in sneakers .. you might have a tough time outrunning them! tasars and stun guns - require contact with skin for max effectiveness; a jacket [like a leather one] will mitigate its effectiveness - the user must be extremely close to the assailent; that puts them at a considerable risk of injury. - the user must keep the stun gun in contact with the assailent for some non negligible period of time. - tasar darts can be pulled out. consider the problem a small women would have keeping a stun gun in contact with a average size man for any length of time w/o sustaining serious injury. |> have any anti-gun groups suggested non-lethal weapons, to counter |> the pro-gun argument that people will be left defenseless? i haven't heard of any. generally they contend that people don't need to [or aren't able] to defend themselves. |> and, what legal restrictions/licensing apply to non-lethal devices? civilian ownership of stun guns is frequently illegal [ny]. the sprays are also illegal in some states. believe it or not, they are still illegal in ny, although about half the state thinks they are legal! [i believe that ny almost legalized them; i have heard that the reason they didn't was due to their ineffectiveness] i feel that the sprays are better than nothing, but only if the user does not believe the hype ["this'll drop 'em in their tracks" stuff] and uses it as a diversion o_n_l_y . |> marks |> mark shepard | shepard@netcom.com | portola valley, ca michael phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com .. (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy (and last but not least a disclaimer) these opinions are mine.. what about guns with non-lethal bullets, like rubber or plastic bullets. would those work very well in stopping an attack? doug holland 
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 (david veal) says: [stuff deleted] me: what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion. in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs. gang members. of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time? of course they don't and that's the point i was trying to make. every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in. the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers. not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a of automatics in his coat (i mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a disadvantage even with training. david: this is the "arms race" fallacy. that somehow bigger guns make an individual safer. the problem is that for each corresponding level of offensive power the is not an automatic level of defense increase. the problem is that there's a sort of lethality threshold that once you get past you're only talking about a metter of degree. regardless of what cops are up against there's really no reason for the average beat cop to have anything bigger than a pistol on him as a personal weapon and maybe a rifle and a shotgun in the cruiser. i mean, think about it. carrying a monster pistol or sub-machinegun doesn't make the cop any less wounded if somebody shoots him. a lot of police departenments have switched to semi-automatics, as better more reliable weapons, and more stopping power, but there's a point of diminishing returns. this is a very, very good point. who cares what kind of gun you've got if you're lying on the ground dead. and as far as automatics go, any gang member carrying around "a couple" of automatics (an incredible rarity) is going to be far more of a menace to himself and innocent bystanders than anything he might be tryinh to aim at. one auto is hard enough to control. anybody who could control two is going to get the police officer regardless of what the police officer is armed with. [more stuff deleted. mostly mine] my question is this: what would a police officer gain from having a sub-machinegun or similar personal weapon that he already doesn't have with a 9mm or 10mm semi-automatic pistol? i don't see as how the police should be hosing around full-auto fire, nor has my experience with police officers (or the stats regarding how many police officers get killed by other cops) made me feel such would be a good idea. precise fire is far more preferable. nor should they using "bigger" guns. most standard sidearms have more then sufficient stopping power when properly applied. all more powerful weapons would do is make the likelihood of death higher without really giving police significantly more options. another very good point that is well taken. it seems that when lots of lead is flying (either the cops or the gangs) someone innocent always gets caught in the crossfire. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" all points made above are well taken. i guess i am in the mindset of "having more makes it better" which is obviously not the correct mindset to take in this discussion. now that i think about the situation a little more carefully i see your point exactly david and i wholeheartedly (sp?) agree. like i said i'm just assuming that "more bullets and/or bigger bullets is better". once again though i want to state that i am a pro-gun individual and do not believe that gun control is really a viable option here in the united states regardless of the drivel that i spout here :-) 
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 promising field experiments are being done this year in several areas of the country relating to chemical contraceptive baits for deer. preliminary data suggests that this will be a cost-effective and humane method for preventing over-population of habitats. preliminary data regarding similar research into kangaroo overpopulation in australia do not in any way support the cost-effectiveness of this approach. it _may_ be cost-effective for deer--if you quietly overlook the fact that the net cost to the state of deer hunting is _negative_ (i.e. a profit) because the (majority of) hunters pay for licences. the cost comparisons are probably being done assuming that people have to be employed to cull the animals, which is not in fact the case. you figure people are going to pay for licences to implant contraceptive pellets or spread baits? there has been a fair bit of discussion about this here recently, because the kangaroo population in the grounds of the governor- general's residence has now reached plague proportions. despite the whines of the rampant animal-libbers, the most effective method of controlling the population is still considered to be controlled so, now why should we allow hunting ... to prevent over-population of the deer/bear/<whatever> ? sorry, but that 'justification' of blood- lust is now gone with the wind. once mass-production of this stuff begins, animal populations can be easily managed without a shot being fired. this leaves only the fact that some people *like* to go out in the woods and *kill* things. some people take satisfaction (imho, legitimate satisfaction) in eating food that they have harvested themselves. the pleasure derived from hunting is the same as that you get from eating fruit and vegetables grown in your own garden (and, in general, game meat is probably much freer of unpleasant chemicals than what you buy from the butcher or the supermarket). that may be a motivation, but it cannot now be justified. expect peta and like organizations to use this argument to get hunting banned - period. by "cannot now be justified" i guess you mean that you personally don't see any justification. fine--but what makes your opinion so important? with no legitimate hunting, with the papers filled with stories of senseless murders ... i guess there won't be a chance in hell of building a case for the rkba that will withstand either public opinion, necessity or scientific scrutiny. don't give me that "silent majority wants guns" crap ... they are and will be 'silent'. no votes for rkba, no rkba. certainly the last point is correct. if politicians don't see any votes for themselves in opposing stupid legislation or in developing and supporting measures which might be effective in reducing the incidence of violent crime they won't do these things. geoff miller (g-miller@adfa.edu.au) computer centre, australian defence force academy 
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 rm:just a short thought: when you ask the question of the "authorities" or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer "no, it's total amnesty". please note that the $50 given for each firearm, in the boston `buy back' will not be in cash, but money orders. how much `total amnesty" can you get if you leave paper trail behind? in the latest case in denver, they were giving away tickets to a denver nuggets basketball game. how traceable is a money order? (i don't know. haven't used one in 20 years) is that even an issue if the weapons aren't checked for being stolen? 
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 iowa: all firearm related bills are dead. senate file 303 dealing with off-duty police officers carrying concealed remains the *power* of the word processor and a stamp at work. the fact that around here the state rep generally lives no more than nine miles from any constituent doesn't hurt, either. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 i]>>since there was no sniper fire, doing nothing was equally effective, as was yelling "stop that". of course, if one wants to credit the tanks with stopping non-existent sniper fire, we might was well credit it with stopping an invasion by martians. see "firearms, violence and civil disorders" (from sri) and "sniping incidents - a new pattern of violence" (from brandeis university's lemberg center for the study of violence). there was precisely one verified sniper in the 67 riots, a drunk firing a pistol out a window. actually, there was only one confirmed sniper to >die< in detroit, according to sauter & hines, _nightmare in detroit, a rebellion & it's what sources did sauter and hines use? in congressional hearings later, the newspaper folk admitted that their reports were completely wrong. (some of their excuses are understandable, while others amount to gross negligence. then there's their "we lied".) as far as i know, they never did the followup. so? people other than snipers can shoot firemen. if they are, shooting at "snipers" can't help. blowing big holes in buildings that don't contain "sniper nests" or worrying about travelling "sniper squads" is a complete waste of time. interesting. just curious, they do you believe that tanks did blow big holes in buildings in detroit 67? i don't have any relevant knowledge about the counter-sniper tactics or what the govt did with the big war toys. that's why i've only commented on what they couldn't have accomplished, no matter what they did. nope - the "sniper" fire was coming from other police/guard positions. the guard certainly needed to learn. but i don't agree with the idea that there were no snipers at all. from p. 121 of sauter & hines: "despite the force of the national guard in alliance with the army troops, the snipers did not stop. the snipers boldly lay siege to the fifth precent police station and took pot shots at the seventh. firemen were under constant harassment from snipers fired from half-closed darkened windows in high apartment buildings and from roof-tops." not in detroit, not during the 60s. that's newspaper copy and they admitted later that they were wrong. 
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 as quoted from <1993apr14.184448.2331@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu: firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area. it would not be economic to smuggle them in. all production would have to be local. there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch. high-ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such, but the average person, and average thug, would be lucky to get a zip-gun - and would pay through the nose for it. you don't know much about modern automatic weapons, do you? just about anybody with basic manufacturing skill can turn out high quality submachineguns. a couple of high school shop teachers were recently arrested for building submachineguns in the school shop. i suggest that you go to the library and find a copy of "smallarms of the world". your entire premise is based on non-factual assumptions. "you're like a bunch of over-educated, new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas" - holly silva 
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 |> what about guns with non-lethal bullets, like rubber or plastic bullets. |> would those work very well in stopping an attack? |> doug holland any projectile traveling at or near typical bullet speeds is potentially lethal. even blanks [which have no projectile] can cause death if the muzzle is in close proximity to the victim. i have heard of rubber or plastic bullets being used effectively during riot situations [where the intent is crowd control, rather than close range self defense]; i've also seen reports of deaths caused by them [the british in northern ireland]. use of a firearm for self defense is appropriate and lawful only in the gravest of situations; at that point, i consider deadly [lethal] force to be a proper reaction [and so does the law]. furthermore, use of less effective [but still potentially lethal] force has its own set of problems. it may well take more applications of the less effective force to stop the incident; this places all parties at some risk; the victim because the attack has not stopped, and the assailent since the aggregate damage done by the multiple applications may well be more deadly. michael phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com .. (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy (and last but not least a disclaimer) these opinions are mine.. 
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 the second amendment is about sovereignty, not sporting goods. perfectly correct, but it won't make any difference. hmm. i beg to differ. it will probably make a big difference at some self defense is a valid reason for rkba. the vast majority get through life without ever having to own, use or display a firearm. besides, there are other means of self-protection which can be just as effective as firearms. thankfully, it is true that the majority go through life without having to use a firearm. howver, there are situations where firearms are the most effective means of self protection. what other means do you propose as equally effective? freedoms and rights are not dependent on public opinion, necessity, or scientific scrutiny. new to this planet ? everything is dependent on either public or political opinion, usually political. to imagine that inalienable 'rights' are somehow wired into the vast cold cosmos is purest egotism and a dangerous delusion. new to this country? new to political theory? alas, i was speaking of principle. without principle, all attempts at republican forms of gov't are futile. there are times when public and political opinion are contrary to principle, which is why we have a constitution which enumerates gov't powers and presumes certain rights. a major reason for this was to prevent a tyranny of the no arguments against rkba can withstand scientific scrutiny. they don't have to. like so many other things, the issue is one of -perception- rather than boring statistics. every time some young innocent is gunned-down in a drive by, every time some kid is murdered for a jacket, every time a store clerk is executed for three dollars in change, every time some moron kills his wife because she took the last beer from the fridge, every time someone hears a 'bang' in the night .... the rkba dies. the stats are not all *that* clearly behind firearms - the protection factor does not strongly outweigh the mindless mayhem factor. given society as we now experience it - it seems safer to get rid of as many guns as possible. that may be an error, but enough active voters believe in that course. this is exactly why law should be based on reasoned thought, not immediate perception. of course, it doesn't always work that way. fortunately, while there are no guarantees, logic sometimes does prevail. and, if not, there are still means for correction. as far as "enough active voters" are concerned, that is still an open question until the vote is made. how do you intend to 'silence' rkba supporters? talk all you want. talk about the "good old days" when you used to own firearms. after a while, such talk will take on the character of war stories ... and no one will be very interested anymore. you portray a possible scenario for the future. but, how will you silence rkba supporters right now? as long as public debate is allowed, such debate will continue. if we allow public debate to be restricted or denied, then we will get a gov't we deserve. [standard disclaimer] 
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 bill vojak: bv>i read in the paper yestarday that ted turner wants to "trim" down bv>his media holdings and is putting cnn up for sale. the #1 potential bv>bidder? time/warner of course. sigh . . . . . just what we need. :-( maybe now's the time for us, the nra, goa, ccrtkba, saf, et al to band together and buy cnn as *our* voice. wouldn't that be sumpin....broadcast the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro-gun item or two.... . olx 2.2 . there is no way they can get over here! a. maginot | ye olde bailey bbs 713-520-1569 (v.32bis) 713-520-9566 (v.32bis) | | houston,texas yob.sccsi.com home of alt.cosuard | 
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 paul prescod pontificating: pp>> libertarians oppose both waiting periods and background checks pp>>-- or any prerequisite for exercising rights that are supposed to pp>>be guaranteed. pp>let me get this straight. unlike the other idiots in this newsgroup, pp>you actually support anybody having unlimited access to guns, pp>inclucing criminals. (or would you prohibit them from owning them, pp>but not from buying them?) pp>you are a supreme idiot. you make the other idiots look like mensa members. thanks paul, for yet another fine example of the holier than thou gun control mindset. why don't you add something intelligent to the debate, like maybe nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah. . olx 2.2 . fight crime..... shoot back! | ye olde bailey bbs 713-520-1569 (v.32bis) 713-520-9566 (v.32bis) | | houston,texas yob.sccsi.com home of alt.cosuard | 
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 dan sorenson writing: ds>i'd rather not get into the nationalized medical care debate ds>here, but i find it amazing that criminals often live better than the ds>rest of the population, in some aspects, and that we're paying for ds>them to do so. as an example, in november i had my annual dental here, you are somewhat in error.....in all respects we are paying. when we are not paying for their countryclub incarceration, we are paying with our lives and belongings as their prey. upon what would they practice their nefarious predatory acts if not for the citizens of this country. what is amazing to me is the mindset of those who overtly and covertly perpetuate a justice system (har) that essentially mandates that some of us offer up ourselves as that prey while they suitably insulate themselves from the . olx 2.2 . church of crime & justice....come, let us prey! | ye olde bailey bbs 713-520-1569 (v.32bis) 713-520-9566 (v.32bis) | | houston,texas yob.sccsi.com home of alt.cosuard | 
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 papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (paul prescod): drugs are banned, please tell me when this supply will dry up? drugs are easier to manufacture, easier to smuggle, easier to hide. no comparison. then let's use another example--alcoholic beverages. bottles of whiskey are larger, heavier, and more fragile than bags of drugs. barrels and kegs are larger and heavier still, and are difficult to manipulate. yet, a lot of people managed to get very rich off of the smuggling of booze into this country during the years of prohibition. there was a demand, so an entire industry formed to supply it. i beleive this was the source of the kennedy clan's money. so unless there's something i'm missing, i think your argument that guns won't be smuggled because theyr'e more difficult to manufacture, smuggle and hide won't wash. if enough people want something, somebody will try to supply it. allan j. heim allanh@sco.com ...!uunet!sco!allanh +1 408 427 7813 jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 |what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of |proportion. in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car |cruising around the city vs. gang members. of course the police have access |to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the |time? of course they don't and that's the point i was trying to make. every |day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in. the majority that i |see are still carrying revolvers. not that there is anything wrong with a |revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple |of automatics in his coat (i mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a |disadvantage even with training. i have been at a shooting range where gang |gang members were "practicing" shooting. they were actually practicing |taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target |and they weren't doing too badly either. the university cops here (who are |are state cops) are armed better than the chicago police. it seems most |state cops are. i don't know where you are originally from david but you live |in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news |and in the papers. i think the situation is just a tad different here |than there. however, don't forget that the police in chicago can carry just about anything they want except for the glock, which is not approved for carry (guess they figure all cops are like the police chief of winnetka, who happened to let off a stray round of 9mm. this is the same anti-gun police chief that wanted full-auto uzis for his patrol cars...). perhaps in the judgement of the majority of chicago's finest, a close-to- 100% reliable weapon like a revolver is preferable to a 99.99% reliable automatic. i note that in germany, where certainly the 9mm semi-auto handgun is king, some of the more elite police types want revolvers. i don't think the issue is cost, because chicago police certainly make on the order of at least $40k/year. your presumption of "disadvantage" i think is not borne out by the experiences of new york city's cops; there the cops usually come out on top with their standard .38 spl revolvers. i've seen s&ws, rugers and beretta 9mms in addition to the revolvers carried by chicago cops.... in the past, i've seen .45 m1911s; others have seen browning hi-powers... |jason 
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 firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area. why? either the numerator or the denominator could fluctuate. the dollar value of a gun would (of course) go up if supply were restricted. the weight of a gun might go down significantly as technology improved. i don't think you have a basis to assert this. it would not be economic to smuggle them in. all production would have to be local. there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch. the skill is easily taught to anyone with a modicum of mechanical aptitude and the only motivator needed is money. if guns were banned then this motivator would kick in big time. now, of course, it is not a moneymaking proposition for every machine shop to make guns on the side when it ain't rebuilding engines. ban guns and watch what happens. you'll have to schedule a year in advance to get your brakes resurfaced. ;-) 
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 / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (strider) / 8:51 pm apr 12, 1993 / i think most of us would rather be held up with a knife than with a gun, but how the hell are you going to manage that? you still haven't offered i've been watching this knife verses gun bit for a while now, (even contributed a few comments) but this stuff "i'd rather face a knife than a gun" has got to come from ignorance! i used to think pretty much the same thing, then i got 'educated.' people do not as a rule understand how deadly knives can be, or how quickly you can be killed with one. most people don't understand that it takes less than an inch of penetration in some areas to cause quick (within a minute or so) death. the death rates from handguns and knives are within a few percentage points of each other. many people not realizing how deadly knives are 'try their luck' and thus more get injured by knives. a gun is deadly only in a single direction and it's only advantage is that it is a remote control weapon. a contact weapon such as a knife controls a spherical area 7 to 10 feet in diameter. most people have never seen knife wounds, aside from slicing a finger by accident. from 21 feet or so, a knife is very nearly an even match for a holstered gun in experienced hands, even if the knife wielder has only moderate skill. from inside 10 feet or so, a knife is a match for a drawn gun. a knife is utterly silent, it never jams and never runs out of ammunition. it is limited only by the speed, dexterity skill and ability of it's wielder. criminals in general are young, fast and strong. it's interesting to note that the patterned slashing attacks used by many martial artists remarkably resemble the wild uncontrolled slashing attacks of novices. i've talked to several well trained martial artists. they have unanimously agreed that if they ever go up against a knife they simply plan on being cut, hopefully not as bad as the attacker. practicing with firearms requires facilities and equipment. practicing with knives requires only a small area and something to simulate a knife, say a popsicle stick or tooth brush. criminals practice their knife attacks in prison. if you have not trained against knives with a firearm and do not realize these facts the first inkling you will have that something is wrong is the knife ripping through your throat, or in the case of an experienced attacker, parts of your body falling off onto the ground. a 60 year old man with arthritis can close that 7 yard distance and gut you in about one and a half seconds. dennis tueller with a broken leg in a walking cast managed it in two. i've seen people close that distance and strike in 1 second. i'm old, over weight and slow. i can do it in 1.3 seconds. i've seen morgue footage of people killed with edged weapons that you would not believe. (how about a single stab wound to the chest with a table fork! in this case the attacker used the handle, not the pointed end.) add to this the 'fact' that hand gun 'stopping' power is largely a myth. except in the case of a central nervous system shot, or a round that destroys the skeletal structure, it takes anywhere from 3 to twelve seconds for a bullet wound to 'take effect.' this is true of even heart shots. there is the case of the police woman in l.a., the first recorded survivor of a .357 shot to the heart. that lady not only killed her attacker, but chased him down to do it! all four of her shots, fired after she had been shot, struck the perp. atta girl! the bullet entered her on a downward angle, went through the apex of her heart, down through the diaphragm, clipped her liver and destroyed her spleen. it then exited her back leaving a tennis ball sized hole. she died about six times on the operating table, but was out of the hospital in 15 days and was back on full duty in eight months! she was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest. she was on her way home so happened to have her gun. no, she doesn't think civilians should have the same rights. sigh. the moral of the story is that even if you do manage to shoot a knife attacker, you'd better be planning on doing some dodging. a good alternative is to shoot for and break the pelvis. people can often walk (a little) on broken legs but a broken pelvis will nearly always anchor them. many firearms schools recommend pelvis shots against contact weapons. the target is as large as the traditional 'center of mass' and is more reliable to stop somebody with a contact weapon, assuming a caliber powerful enough to 'do the job.' hot .38's on up will usually do this. remember folks, the idea isn't to 'take em with you' but for you to live and them to fail, whatever the consequences for them. this the reason 'killing them' isn't our goal, or in many cases even good enough to keep us alive. i don't want to face a violent attack of any sort. knowing what i now know, i can't rightly say i'd rather face a knife than an gun. it would have to depend on the attacker, and if i could pick and choose, i wouldn't be there. this is really the bottom line. criminals do not fear the law. criminals do not fear the weapon. they fear the citizen behind the weapon that has shown the resolution and determination to do whatever it takes. 
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 / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / hays@ssd.intel.com (kirk hays) / 3:31 pm apr 13, 1993 / some of the pro-gun posters in this group own no guns. the dread "terminator", aka "the rifleman", owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group, as an example. there are others. good point, kirk. he's still around too. he's responded by email to a couple of my posts, and gosh darn, he's gotten down right civil! this happed about the time he got his first firearm. wonder if there is a relationship here? turns out that most people (at least the ones who are not criminals to start with) act responsibility once given the chance. 
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 consider a similar structure: "a well-educated electorate, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed." now, does this mean only the electorate can keep and read books? does{ it mean only registered voters can keep and read books? does it mean only those who have voted can keep and read books? does it imply any restrictions at all on the right to keep and read books? but it would imply that the state had the right to regulate and enforce that's nice, but it doesn't answer the question. there is a difference between "the feds can mandate literacy" and "the feds can't interfere with literacy/book possession". as far as "john q. public with a gun," the supreme court has already ruled in cases such as us v. miller (307 u.s. 175 (1939)), and us v. verdugo-urquidez (110 s. ct. 1839 (1990)) that that is exactly what the amendment protects. this interpretation can be found as far back as the dred scott case, in 1857. it's worth noting that us vs. miller sustained miller's conviction of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon. therefore, us vs. miller supports limited government regulation of firearms. actually, the miller court did nothing of the kind. it remanded the case back to the trial court because the miller court didn't know if the weapon in question was a militia weapon. (doesn't it bother anyone that a major constitutional issue was taken up in a case where there was no defense? miller had been released by the appeals court and disappeared - only the govt was represented.) we don't know what would have happened with the reasonable "all guns are militia weapons" argument. 
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 the idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but i'm curious to know, do they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid? btw, anybody planning on shaving hillary's head to look for *666*? 8^) later dave, goverment logic or just the clintons? |_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ | david h. slack | |_/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ | boise surface mount center | |_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ | email: slack@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | | _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ | telnet: 323 4019 | |_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _ _/_/ _/ _/ | phone: (208) 323 4019 | | hewlett-packard, 11213 chinden blvd., boise idaho 83714-1023, m/s #625 | 
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 -> actually, the words "a well regulated milita, being necessary to the -> security of a free state" is a present participle, used as an -> adjective to modify 'militia', which is followed by the main clause of -> the sentence, the subject being 'the right', the verb 'shall'. it -> asserts that the right to keep and bear arms is essential for -> maintaining a milita. -> a free state. yes, i agree the first half of the amendment does modify the noun militia. but the difinition of modify that applies to how "well regulated" modifies "militia" is: to qualify or limit the meaning of. for example, "wet" modifes "day" in the phrase "a wet day." the amendment is similiar to the statement: a wet day, being annoying, the right of the people to keep and wear boots, shall not be infringed. so how does a dry day pertain the right to use boots? similiar, what does the "unorganized militia" have to due with the right to own guns? -> the sentence [in the second amendment] doesn't restrict the right, or -> state or imply possession of the right by anyone or anything other -> than the people. all it does is make a positive statement regarding a -> right of the people. the people, as in you and me, as in the first, -> fourth, ninth, tenth, as well as the second amendment. -> the existence of this right is assumed - it is not granted by the -> amendment. there is no stated or implied condition relating the right -> to bear arms to the necessity of a well-regulated militia to the security of -> in other words, the entire sentence says that the right to keep and -> bear arms is unconditional. no not, unconditional, but "shall not be infringed". infringed is defined as: to break or ignore the terms of or obligations (an oath, an agreement, law, or the like); to disreguard; violate. to go beyond the boundaries or limits; tresspass; encroach. this definition implies the following of some form of existing agreement. laws and agreements are made in advance. boundaries or limits of behavior are set by society as a whole. the word "unconditional" implies no agreements or all previous agreements are off, which is the opposite. the words used in the first amendment are much stronger, i.e., "congress shall make no law," are much stronger. they clearly imply "unconditional." if the writers of the amendment, wanted unconditional whay didn't they says, "congress shall make no laws pertaining the the right of the people to keep and bear arms"? the second amendment implies a sort contract between the people the people and the state. the bigger part of the contract is the people have the right to overthrew the government and its laws at any time. to guarantee this right, the laws cannot stopped the people from forming a "well regutaled militia." the duties of a "well regulated militia" to the government are descussed in federalist no. 29. and the limits of of the governmental control of the militia are descussed in article i section 8, article ii section 2, and the second amendment of the constitution. | | "if only it were a modern document, with a | | john lawrence rutledge | smart index and hyper links stretching all | | research assistant | through the world data net. it was terribly | | | frustrating to flip back and forth between | | interactive media group | the pages and crude flat illustrations that | | computer science department | never even moved. nor were there animated | | umass - lowell | arrows or zoom-ins. it completely lacked a | | 1 university ave. | for sound. | | lowell, ma 01854 | "most baffling of all was the problem of new | | | words... in normal text you'd only have to | | (508) 934-3568 | touch an unfamiliar word and the definition | | jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu | would pop up just below." | | | from david brin's "earth" | 
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 -> > but, do you knew how much organization is required to training a large -> > group of poeple twice a year. just to try to get the same people -> > every year, provide a basic training to new people so they can -> > be integrated into the force, and find a suitable location, it -> > requires a continually standing committee of organizers. -> again, my response is, "so what?" is mr. rutledge arguing that since -> the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support -> such activity, and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from -> doing so, that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba? on the -> contrary, to anyone who understands the game, they have strengthened it. no, i originally argued that the second amendment was "a little bit and an anachronism." these prohibiting laws are examples why the are an anachronism. after all, laws in made by representatives of the people. these representatives of the people have already decided that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some cases. since these representatives feel an unconditional interpretation is not wanted, then it is probable that they majority of the people feel the same way. if this is so, it is an example of the people using their power of government. if this is not how the people feel, the people should stand up and state their wishes. mox nix, mr. rutledge. you are the only one here claiming that the -> rkba is dependent on the existence of a top-flight, well-regulated -> militia. why this is a false assumption has already been posted a -> number of times. no, i simple stated that the people have a right to "join a well organized militia." and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly "well organized." and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a "right" to, is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton. | | "if only it were a modern document, with a | | john lawrence rutledge | smart index and hyper links stretching all | | research assistant | through the world data net. it was terribly | | | frustrating to flip back and forth between | | interactive media group | the pages and crude flat illustrations that | | computer science department | never even moved. nor were there animated | | umass - lowell | arrows or zoom-ins. it completely lacked a | | 1 university ave. | for sound. | | lowell, ma 01854 | "most baffling of all was the problem of new | | | words... in normal text you'd only have to | | (508) 934-3568 | touch an unfamiliar word and the definition | | jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu | would pop up just below." | | | from david brin's "earth" | 
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 on march 8, i sent strongly worded letters critisizing the batf in their handling of the randy weaver and branch davidian cases to several politicians (ore. senators bob packwood and mark hatfield, representative elizabeth furse and treasury secretary lloyd bentsen). while i have never been a supporter of bob packwood, i must admit that he seems to be the only one who has done anything but round-file my letter. well, i didn't bother writing to boxer, feinstein or eshoo, the terrible trio who allegly represent me. instead, i wrote to bentsen. my letter was not exactly strongly-worded; i simply stated that the batf approach was immoral (military-style assault, firing into a house where they knew there were kids). aparently, bentsen forwarded my letter to the batf and they responded to me directly. it follows the text of your reply pretty closely. however, i intend to send another letter directly to them, in return. prior to the service of the federal search warrant, numerous efforts were made to locate and effect the arrest of david koresh away from the compound. these efforts were unsuccessful. even if david koresh had been arrested while away from the compound, action would have been required against his followers (who are just as violent as he) during the subsequent search of the premises. this section is not in the letter that i received. the parts about atf logo and steenking badges or their loss of the element of surprise were not included, either. sincerely yours, daniel m. h??l??tt [can't make out signature] deputy director the same guy with the bad handwriting apparently signed my letter, "for richard l. garner; chief, special operations division". 
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 / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / steiner@jupiter.ca.boeing.com / 12:07 am apr 15, 1993 / [...lostsa' crap deleted. trim your articles!...] what about guns with non-lethal bullets, like rubber or plastic bullets. would those work very well in stopping an attack? last i heard, "non-lethal" was a bit of a misnomer for these things. also, you need to consider our legal system. since any of these things can be lethal, you are going to have a hard time explaining why you applied lethal force when you didn't think it was necessary. (if you thought lethal force was necessary, you wouldn't be using rubber bullets, would you?) ouch. if you are justified in shooting them at all, you are justified in using the best self defense ammunition you can get your hands on. it might actually improve the legal outcome. this is why hollow points hold up in court. they are safer for you, safer for innocent by standers, (don't as a rule go through the perp) and actually safer for the perp. if you are using military hard ball, you may have to shoot him 'many' times, where one or two hollow points might stop him and do the job. as a rule, the fewer wound channels, the better the chance for his surviving the incident. 
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 hell, a glock is the last thing that should be switched to. the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it. sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn't too great of a safety. you're getting warmer. the 'little thing in the trigger' has to be depressed before the trigger can move. what this means is the damned thing won't go off until the trigger is pulled. this makes it just about (there have been some problems, but we're assuming the gun is functioning correctly..) as safe as a revolver. the gun when working correctly is totally drop safe. now, in police work this is a consideration. there is not a single documented case i'm aware of where a police officer was killed because he failed to operate the safety on his firearm. there are quite a few documented cases where criminals got hold of the cops gun and couldn't figure out how to get the safety off in time to use the gun, thus the proprietary nature of the safety (to the criminal at least) very likely prevented the office from getting shot. the purpose of a safety is to make the gun safe from unintentional fire. this does not mean it should be so complicated as to slow down intentional use! thus the glock safety is perfectly adequate from a 'safety' standpoint, but not necessarily the most desirable from the standpoint of open carry where it is easily grabbed by somebody else. by this criteria it does make a lot of sense as a concealed carry piece. from the standpoint of police use, it is no better (or worse) than a revolver as far as being 'proprietary' to the officer in the method of firing it. the ideal solution may someday be biometric sensing of the user so that the firearm can't be used by anybody but it's owner, but for now the wide variety of safety systems helps, unless the criminal happens to be familiar with that particular type of firearm. 
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 / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / vincent@cad.gatech.edu (vincent fox) / 10:34 am apr 14, 1993 / this isn't rec.guns, so maybe this is getting a bet technical, but i can't resist.... - a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again. sometimes..... depends on why it misfired.... - a double-action revolver (almost all of them) can be hand-cocked first, but will fire merely by pulling the trigger. i can't imagine doing much combat type shooting single action..... - a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round. assuming the cylinder will rotate.... - a revolver can be carried with the 6th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety, but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion, even one handed. never hurts to err on the side of safety, but if you've got one of those 'new fangled' hammer blocks or transfer bar safeties, it's unnecessarily redundant. i'd rather have the extra round. - speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi-autos. can be faster depending on users. quite true. speed loaders are a little less convenient to pack around than magazines though. - a misfire in a semi-auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first, time spent which can be fatal. and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize "hey, it's jammed!" before starting to do anything about clearing it. true, but this is a training function. - most semi-autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer. some police carry their semi-autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked, but a safety engaged. i do not consider this safe however. you must trade-off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver. cocked and locked for single actions or hammer down on double actions are the only carry modes that make sense... the 80 series colt's for example are quite safe to carry this way. - there are some double-action semi-autos out there, but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training. now that i've shot off my mouth a bit, let me back some of this up. it is true that a simple misfire on a revolver doesn't cost you much. on the other hand, i've had all sorts of interesting things happen over the years. for example, i've had factory ammunition that has had high primers. a high primer will tie your revolver up somewhere from seconds to minutes while you try to pound the action open to clear the problem. an auto? jack the slide and continue. i've had bullets come out of the case, keeping the cylinder from turning, see clearing paragraph above. about the worst that can happen with a semi auto is a double feed. this can be cleared in seconds. most revolvers are more 'fragile' then semi auto's. there are all sorts of close tolerance parts and fitting involved. dropping the gun, or a blow to the gun or all sorts of things can take it out of action. many of the problems that can be cured on the spot with a (quality) semi auto take a gun smith for a revolver. in short a revolver may be less likely to malfunction, but as a rule when it does, you're out of the fight. the majority of malfunctions that occur with semi autos does not fall into that category. vincint makes many good points in this post, but leaves off the opposing view of most of them. a real good starting place is ayoob's "the semi auto pistol for police and self defense." in general, i'd agree, the revolver is an excellent first gun and self defense weapon for somebody that does not have the time, and inclination that is necessary for the training and practice needed to use a semi auto effectively as a self defense arm. most cops are notoriously indifferent to firearms. if the department isn't going to train them, they aren't going to take the time on their own. there is no doubt that training is an issue. the amount of training required for effective use of a semi auto is probably several times that of a revolver. many cops don't bother. for myself, i'd hate to be limited to one or the other. i'd rather pick what fits better with my personal inclination, what i'm wearing that day and so on. like the moderator on rec.guns says, buy em all! that said, i have to admit that often my advice to people thinking of buying their first defense arm is (right after taking a class) get a ruger or smith revolver.... (sorry colt fans. colt revolvers are ok too!) if this post had gone the other way, i'd be arguing for revolvers. :-) 
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 [stuff deleted about causes of people in er] and your factoid about shooting victims in the er. count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes. maybe we should outlaw marciano pitargue@cisco.com there are a lot of automobile accidents, but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this. such as? drunk drivers get back on the road in no time, to kill again. seems the driver's license process does not work for this. when i got my drivers license, i had to take a drivers safety class. because you wanted one while you were underage. i have to be licensed to drive. only on public roads. my car must be registered. only if it is to be driven on public roads, other than between segments of my i must (at least where i live) have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car (if someone else had an accident with it). only on public roads. hmm, wouldn't manditory saftey classes, registration of both the owner and gun, and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners. perhaps, if it gave them permission to shoot in public roads and parks. :-) paul reimer reimer@uinpluxa.npl.uiuc.edu jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 [stuff deleted about causes of people in er] and your factoid about shooting victims in the er. count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes. maybe we should outlaw marciano pitargue@cisco.com there are a lot of automobile accidents, but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this. when i got my drivers license, i had to take a drivers safety class. tennessee, at least, does not require any sort of safety class to get a driver's license. all that is required is one twenty question quiz and to drive a car around the block without crashing. i have to be licensed to drive. in all probability, no you don't. you are required to be licensed to drive on public roads. a license is not necessary on private property. my car must be registered. most states do not require the registration of cars that are not used on public roads. those that do (california i know of) do so for tax purposes more than anything else. i must (at least where i live) have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car (if someone else had an accident with it). many states do not currently require this, and most, again, only make this requirement for public roads. a car sitting unused is not required to have insurance. hmm, wouldn't manditory saftey classes, registration of both the owner and gun, and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners. the two are not the same, as i pointed out above. there are significant difference between making rules for *use on public property* and *making rules for ownership*. the other half of the objection is trust. similar things to this have been tried in many local jurisdications across the country, and have been abused in far too many cases. safety classes which are never sheduled, never funded, or only one or two is held a year for a limited number of participants. registration lists in new york, chicago, and california have been used for confiscation. *many* gun owners would, in theory, support these planes. (although the numbers overwhelmingly show that competence is not the problem, that intentional misuse is). they've simply seen it abused and are leery of the next person who comes down the pike with a "reasonable" suggestion they've already seen abused. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 there's only one way i know of to tell an ar-15 from an m-16. pick it up, hold it about a foot from your face and look closely at the saftey lever. if it has two positions, its an ar-15, if it has three, its an m-16. there are numerous internal differences as well, but since one would have to field strip the weapon to see them, they are not valid in this discussion. so, in conclusion, there is very little external differences to distinguish an ar-15 from an m-16 except at close (very close) range. david bixler auburn university all standard disclaimers apply. 
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 in canada, any gun that enters a national park must be sealed (i think it's a small metal tag that's placed over the trigger). the net result of this is that you _can't_ use a gun to protect yourself from bears (or psychos) in the national parks. instead, one has to be sensitive to the dangers and annoyances of hiking in bear country, and take the appropriate precautions. i think this policy makes the users of the national parks feel a little closer to nature, that they are a part of nature and, as such, have to deal with nature on it's own terms. i understand this philosophy. the bears are a national treasure, the area is their sanctuary and people who enter it do so at their own risk. it is better that that rare human be killed by a bear than that bears be provoked or shot by unbear-savvy visitors. the bears aren't having a population explosion, humans are so it is better that a human be killed than endanger the bears. i don't agree with this philosopy, but i understand it. the psychos are a bit different. they are not a national treasure but i suppose the decision has been made that to "allow" provision for defense against them would also "allow" provision for defense against bears. again, i suppose it has been decided that it is better for the rare human to be killed by a psycho than to take a chance on threatening the bears. personally, i wouldn't go into an area where i would be "managed" so as to reduce my safety ..... but ... come to think of it i guess i live in a managed wilderness myself :-) joan v 
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 :in article <0096b294.aad9c1e0@uinpla.npl.uiuc.edu> reimer@uinpla.npl.uiuc.edu :> in article <1qkftjinnoij@cronkite.cisco.com>, pitargue@cisco.com (marciano :> [stuff deleted about causes of people in er] :> >due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes. maybe we should outlaw :> >cars. :> there are a lot of automobile accidents, but atleast there is some :> regulation to try to combat this. :such as? drunk drivers get back on the road in no time, to kill again. seems :the driver's license process does not work for this. i can testify to this. my cousin spent a few weeks in the hospital, and his friend was killed, because of a drunk driver. the son-of-a-b**** is back on the streets... officers from the scene are still p***ed about that one. :> to take a drivers safety class. :because you wanted one while you were underage. :> i have to be licensed to drive. :only on public roads. :> my car :> must be registered. :only if it is to be driven on public roads, other than between segments of my :property. :> i must (at least where i live) have liability :> insurance on both myself driving and my car (if someone else had an :> accident with it). :only on public roads. and this obviously doesn't always work, else why would they offer uninsured motorist coverage? :> hmm, wouldn't manditory saftey classes, registration :> of both the owner and gun, and manditory liability insurance be nice for :> gun owners. i object to mandatory registration because i don't trust my government not to use any information i give them for their own purposes. i am licensed to carry a concealed pistol in my home state, but they never asked whether i actually owned a firearm. a safety class before issuing a permit to carry is reasonably, provided such classes are regularly available to the public. of course, most places would consider my time in the reserves and on a competition rifle team to count. :perhaps, if it gave them permission to shoot in public roads and parks. :-) hey, now that's an idea :) :> paul reimer :jim now, unless you have an agenda against private ownership of firearms, why would you want to harass the person trying to legally defend themselves or exercise their rights? (i know, defending oneself/family/whoever is a right... at least as far as my 9mm and i are concerned... ) (also as far as the state of alabama seems to be concerned) why don't you push for stricter prosecution of those who use firearms in the commission of a crime? i've already pointed out how we aren't nailing dui's hard enough... comparing the us with other countries seldom works, but the european attitude towards alchohol and dui seems to work.. their attitude towards weapons isn't really a valid comparison because they've historically done their best to keep the populace disarmed and submissive, while our country was founded by a bunch of rugged individualists who told the european monarchies (for the most part) to take a flying leap (used more polite language though). we even weaseled out of our first international treaty, and then convinced the french that it was in their best interests not to complain.. but first we had to overcome the fact that the brits were doing their best to restrict us to squirrel guns and such, so we'd be properly submissive while they forced us to pay for their wars. of course, most american history classes these days tend to gloss over facts that do not fit the image they wish to convey... i'm glad my amer. hist. teacher was a libertarian who had us review a good portion of the federalist papers, and debate their origins and meanings. enough rambling, james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 w.k. gorman: <3>> maybe now's the time for us, the nra, goa, ccrtkba, saf, et al to band <3>> together and buy cnn as *our* voice. wouldn't that be sumpin....broadcast <3>> the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro-gun item or two.. <3>i would like to see this happen. i don't think it will. i don't <3>think the average gun-owner will take any notice of what is happening <3>until they break down his door. <3>but i will go on record publicly to the effect that i will contribute a <3>minimum of $1,000.00 to the buy-out fund if it can be organized and made <3>viable. anybody else want to put their money where their mouth is? :) <3>there ar 50+ million gun owners out there. if - and it's a big and <3>not very realistic if - we got hold of cnn, the anti-gun bullshit would <3>stop right there. why won't it happen - because nobody will get off their <3>ass and make it happen. nuts. any nra headquarters weenies listening to this man. any rtkba organization honcho listening. it's time to stop fighting the brady's and the schumer's (now there's an interesting meaning to the acronynm bs) from the comfort of the office....we had better get serious with our time and money and get after it or we might just as well pack it in now. . olx 2.2 . gun control advocates must have had a sanity by-pass! | ye olde bailey bbs 713-520-1569 (v.32bis) 713-520-9566 (v.32bis) | | houston,texas yob.sccsi.com home of alt.cosuard | 
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 i have a question about the second amendment that has bothered me for awhile. the amendment guarentees our "right to keep and bear arms." currently, the gun prohibitionists are trying to restrict or eliminate our right to keep arms with the brady bill and the assault weapon ban. however, haven't we already lost our right to bear arms? it seems that in most states, like texas, a citizen may own a gun and carry while at his home or business. but a citizen is severely restricted from bearing outside these areas. here in texas you cannot carry in your car except when "traveling" which is usually defined as "traveling across a county line." how did this come about? are there any court rulings on the legality of restricting the carrying of a weapon outside the home? there are, but not any that would help texans: in many states, such laws have been found to violate the state constitution. but the federal second amendment does not apply directly to the states. it was written to limit the federal government only. the fourteenth amendment was written to extend the restrictions of the bill of rights to the state level. however, the exact wording of the fourteenth amendment is very vague. the supreme court has been dancing around the issue without facing it directly for over 100 years. in practice, the bill of right (indirectly applies through the fourteenth) applies to the state governments only if the supreme court has ruled that particular provision. the court has made no such rulings on the second amendment. frank crary cu boulder 
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 the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents ... those who posessa a cool jakcet you want, those who would argue with you about a parking space, those who would take your woman. in short, trivial and worthless causes. that's open for debate. certainly, an excessive number of people are murdered every year but people also do save innocent lives with firearms. the media just don't tell us when it happens... too much of this has ruined you cause. there is no recovery. in the near future, federal martials will come for your arms. i think there are more of us than there are federal marshalls... no one will help you. you are more dangerous, to their thinking, than the 'criminal'. this is your own fault. crap. it's simplistic thinking on the part of feather-headed dolts. the 2nd amendment is dead. accept this. find another way. 
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 the 2nd amendment is dead. accept this. find another way. it ain't dead, yet. and even if it were repealed, remember, it just protects our rkba, it does not grant any rights. there would then have to be additional laws passed to outlaw gun possession. even if they outlawed private posession of firearms, there would be no moral force behind that law; i imagine compliance would be low. 
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 i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net. say you're in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody. you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them. my question is what do you do? should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass (if you're using a semi-auto) and get out of there (provided of course you don't think that you have been seen)? as a data point from tennessee, a friend of mine and a police officer essentially recommends that if you can, fade away. even if you were perfectly justified you're likely in for a great deal of hassle. (a side note, carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor.) what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation? what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense? what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught? it's one of those "by state" things, pretty much. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 yea, there are millions of cases where yoy *say* that firearms 'deter' criminals. alas, this is not provable. not provable. it's about as "provable" as the number of votes vast for bill clinton in the last election. if you accept the information available, you can prove one way or the other. if you refuse to accept it, nothing is "provable." i think that that there are actually *few* cases where this is so. fine, support your assertation. but, you haven't supported any assertations just yet. the national crime survey, that secret arm of the nra, estimates between 40,000 and 50,000 with-gun self-defenses from assaults, and is considered to considerably under-report. when broken down by weapon, there is no form of "self-defense" including dowing nothing which is more effective at avoiding injury or death. the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents ... those who posessa a cool jakcet you want, those who would argue with you about a parking space, those who would take your woman. in short, trivial and worthless causes. ok, support *this* assertation. hell, support *one*. too much of this has ruined you cause. there is no recovery. that's nice. in the near future, federal martials will come for your arms. that's nice, too. the 2nd amendment is dead. accept this. find another way. why on earth should we? if you're correct we've nothing to lose by continuing to argue against it and everything to gain. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 abuse by the goverment: this seems to be one of the main problems; any harder gun-control would just be abused by the goverment.(!) either some of you are a little paranoid (no offence...) mr. parsli, i have to take exception at this. there are verifiable, previous *examples* of levels of u.s. governments abusing gun-control restrictions. i don't think it is paranoid to worry that what has been abused in the recent past might be abused in thye future. after so many times of getting burned any sane person will stop putting his hand on the stove. or you should get a new goverment. (you do have elections??) i'd love to. but as long as the politicians grab power to sell pork back to their constituents, there's not a lot i can do. it's silly to suggest that if there's anything we can't trust the government to do, and therefore the government should be allowed to do it, then we should change governments. down that road lies total government power. i've never been a fan of totalitarianism. guns 'n criminals: most weapons used by criminals today are stolen. this is very likely. known criminals can not buy weapons, that's one of the points of gun control. and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia (and most of europe), we dont have any problem with smuggled guns. the north american continent is not europe, no matter how many people would like it to be. drugs are very illegal and they're here. for years canada has crowed about its gun control. if it is necessary to control guns over the whole continent, then canada should have always had comparable rates to the u.s., yet they still don't. unless you can tell me why the canadian border is so much more magical than the mexican border (which is shorter and far more heavily patrolled) then i really can't accept that argument. mixing weapons and things that can be use as one: what i meant was that cars can kill, but they are not guns! no, there are approximately 31,000 deaths due to guns in the u.s., two-thirds of which are suicides. (unfortunately i don't have suicide rates for norway.) however, this makes the per-gun death rate about half the per-car death rate. the issue (i hope..): i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem. guns are not a problem, but the way they are used is.... (and what are they for??) i think this discusion is interesting when you think of (ex)jugoslavia: they should all have weapons, it's their rigth to have them, and if they use them to kill other (innocent) people the problem is humans, not guns. the problem's been humans since before we had stone axes. the fct of the matter is simply this: if nobody ever assaulted anybody, whether there is a weapon of any sort around would be totally yet weapons are *built*. i'd suggest, then, that the murderous impulse in humanity pre-dates weapons. anyway, the bosnians et al. have been making an excellent attempt to kill each other for half a thousand years. taking away their guns, even if we could, would neither halt the killing nor reduce the brutality. if 50% of all murders was done with axes, would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees, and that the axe is not a problem, it's the 'axer' ?? (an example, don't flame me just because not exactly 50% are killed by guns...) in the u.s., approximately 60% of murders are commited with firearms. (50% with handguns, 10% with non-handguns.) the reason i say that guns, per se, are not the problem, is that our non-gun rate exceeds most of europe's countries *entire* violent crime rate. i don't really think we've got more knives or fists. in any case, i think examples of gun control *applied* to the u.s. have been abkect failures, just like drug prohibition and other forms of prohibition. until you deal with *why* people are doing what they are doing, you won't solve your problem. and if the problem is violent crime, you shouldn't concentrate on the tools instead. the *vast* majority of guns is never, ever misused. (on the order of 99.5% over the entire lifetime of the gun). this says to me that you can't make the argument that the gun itself causes the misuse. think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves. is this a good situation ?? the situation is not "good" in that people fear for their lives. but recall the scenes of the store-owners during the last riots, protecting their shops with guns. would it have been better they, too, lost their livelihoods? is it the rigth way to deal with the problem ?? the problem of poverty and rage in los angeles, no it isn't. however, if that problem becomes a violent action, then yes, it can be appropriate. whether or not some person has been hurt by their condition won't make me less dead if they burn down my house with me in it. you have to examine which problem you're referring to. if you're discussing someone violently assaulting you, then it is a perfectly legitimate response to make them stop. (hopefully simply letting them know you're prepared to shoot them would be enough, as it was with the above-mentioned store-owners.) if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals (and their neighbor who have guns) what do you think will happen ?? (i mean if everybody had a gun in usa) 45% of households have some form of firearm, usually a long gun. that accounts for a level of access for at least 100 million americans. firearm ownership is most likely among educated, well-off whites, the group *least* likely to be involved in violent crime. you may take that for what it's worth. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 in article <1993apr18.000152.2339 surrender your arms. soon enough, officers will be around to collect them. resistance is useless. they will overwhelm you - one at a time. are you certain you didn't mean to post to alt.french.captain.borg.borg.borg? you'd better rush home...i hear kruschev calling "come to papa, jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu!" "i am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit, using stone knives and bearskins." --spock - humble typesetter - 
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 [ ... picking nits over tanks firing the main gun or not deleted ...] i think the point is being missed - that it is apparantly acceptable for big government (big brother?) to use tanks to control the people, as long as they don't use the big gun (but everything else is allright...). tanks deployed against civilians, let alone firing on them with crew served weaponry (a .50 heavy machine gun is crew-served) is something both our press and government howl about instantly when done in some other country. against civilians that have, at most, one-shot-at-a-time light small arms. certainly nothing that places the people in or behind the tank in any real danger. molotov coctails? a round from a rifle or pistol deals with anybody approaching with one of those. and "snipers" too often turn out to be strays from other cops/guard/army gunfire. i don't know about the other people in this group (or on the net) but the idea of tanks being used to control civilians, in anything that pretends to be a free society is outrageous. when big government feels it is necessary to use that kind of force to stomp out protests (even violent) of the citizens, that suggests that the government is totally out of control, since that is effectively the government declaring war on its own people. if the government was living up to its responsibility, government of the people by the people, not the 'lords' and other elites who want to keep their good thing going, the citizens wouldn't feel the need to be resorting to acts that need to be squashed with a military boot. people do things like that because they have become convinced that it is the only option that remains, other attempts to have grievances redressed have been ignored. and yes, there is a criminal element that will exploit this, but the fact remains that the government has been unresponsive or such acts wouldn't be apt to happen. still not an excuse to open up on civilians with tanks, heavy machine guns, or whatever. its the old 'might makes right' philosophy that is the hallmark of a government going rogue: they don't like it? tough. we will simply squash them under an iron boot. actually addressing their grievances in other than token fashion with huge volumes of hot air is just too inconvenient... sort of a variation on mushroom management: keep them in the dark, smother them with shit, and crush them when ready... and these are the folks that many liberals are trying to arrange things so that they will have a monopoly on coercive force (firearms that are than expensive toys...) by gutting the bill of rights (cuz it just isn't progressive or doesn't fit in with modern thinking anymore)... and i do believe amid the smoke, confusion, etc of a real riot situation, that it would be possible for a tank to get away with firing the main gun into a building at close range? one would hear an explosion among many explosions. it is loud, but it is not going to stand out like a 1000 pound bomb or a tactical nuke. there would be a hole blown in the wall, and some rubble, but with tanks knocking over walls, and other sources of buildings turning into rubble, and other covering racket such as gunfire, including 50's tacking away, it would not stand out that much, and could be explained by "musta been a gas leak... ". i think it could be done and not be reported under such conditions - it is possible. it is not like a tank driving down a quiet street on a sunday afternoon, turning and firing, you know. that would stand out, and be pretty impossible to cover up. --john l. scott pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 : you are loosing. : there is no question about it. : of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. no matter : how hard you try, public opinion is set against the rkba. care to show some *real* numbers instead of something hci make up? i thought so, all "foaming at the mouth" shouting but nothing is ever said... : this is the end. by the finish of the clinton administration, your : rkba will be null and void. tough titty. well, we'll just have to wait and see about that, won't we? or are you quite satisified with living in your little fantasy? < snip > : cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. there is nothing you < snip > : the press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against : you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it ! not true, it is only those who are ignorant and are afraid to understand, accept, and deal with the real problems behind this violent society who are proposing gun control as a band-aid solution. may be i should refresh your memory with a quote from prez. clintion? "it's the criminals, stupid!" hey, why is he cutting the budget for more prisons? may be someone need to remind him of what he promised...on second thought, why bother... : surrender your arms. soon enough, officers will be around to collect : them. resistance is useless. they will overwhelm you - one at a time. : your neighbors will not help you. they will consider you more if an : immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'. oooh, waco ii, coming to your living room soon... when was the last time you turned off your tv? can't remember? i thought so... : too fucking bad. you have gone the way of the kkk. violent solutions : are passe'. avoid situations which encourage criminals. then you will : be as safe as possible. such as it is ... wait, i got it, this is a late april fool post, right? i didn't think anybody is stupid enough to post something like this...good one guys, this group was getting boring without holly and susan. --francis chiu, professional student, programmer, tax payer. 
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 hi. i've just finished reading s414, and have several questions about the brady bills (s414 and hr1025). 1. _are_ these the current versions of the brady bill? what is the status of these bills? i've heard they're "in committee". how close is that to being made law? 2. s414 and hr1025 seem fairly similar. are there any important differences i missed? 3. s414 seems to have some serious loopholes: a. s414 doesn't specify an "appeals" process to wrongful denial during the waiting period, other than a civil lawsuit(?) (s414 has an appeals process once the required instant background check system is established, but not before). b. the police are explicitly not liable for mistakes in denying/approving using existing records (so who would i sue in "a" above to have an inaccurate record corrected?) c. s414 includes an exception-to-waiting-period clause for if a person can convince the local chief law-enforcement officer (cleo) of an immediate threat to his or her life, or life of a household member. but s414 doesn't say exactly what is considered a "threat", nor does it place a limit on how long the cleo takes to issue an exception true? have i misunderstood? any other 'holes? 4. with just s414, what's to stop a person with a "clean" record from buying guns, grinding off the serial numbers, and selling them to crooks? at minimum, what additional laws are needed to prevent this? 'seems at min. a "gun counting" scheme would be needed (e.g., "john doe owns n guns"). so, if s414 passes, i wouldn't be surprised to see legislation for stricter, harder-to-forge i.d.'s plus national gun registration, justified by a need to make the brady bill work. please comment. i'm mainly interested in specific problems with the current legislation--i don't mean to start a general discussion of the merits of any/all waiting-period bills ever proposed. marks || shepard@netcom.com 
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 what all you turkey pro-pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don't seem to realize is that the rest of us *laugh* at you. you don't make me angry, you just make me chuckle - i remeber being in bellingham, washington and seeing a you consider laughing at others civilized behavior? what was i supposed to learn from your article? treat people like dogs? i am not impressed by your attitude. 
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 in the near future, federal martials will come for your arms. no one will help you. you are more dangerous, to their thinking, than the 'criminal'. this is your own fault. the 2nd amendment is dead. accept this. find another way. you know, in many ways this might be just the kick we need to straighten things out in this country. also, people would have a need to replace guns with something else, perhaps deadly sprays that would make mace and oc seem like water. they would be lighter and easier to conceal. guns are really "old" in design and as long as we have tons of them, no one is motivated to design something better. i'm sure we could come up with some real nasty stuff if we tried and getting rid of these guns would get us moving on this track asap. this is what we really want, right? stuff that's smaller, lighter and far more deadly. remember, in this country we'll really scramble to accomplish impossible feats if we are motivated enough and i think "self-defense" is high on our list of motivators. 
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 you are loosing. what's "loosing?" of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. no matter how hard you try, public opinion is set against the rkba. i vote. i don't consider rkba an abomination. this is the end. by the finish of the clinton administration, your rkba will be null and void. tough titty. i'm sure sarah brady would be delighted to hear your ranting and raving. however, clinton has not publically stated that he would like to repeal the second amendment. "tough titty" to you. you had better discover ways to make do without firearms. the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. there is nothing you can do about it. those who live by the sword shall die by it. are we going to "make do without" like the people in new york city? you know new york city: that gun ban utopia you dream about, with the millions of unregistered handguns? new york city, by the way, has a very high crime rate. perhaps you should know about a gungrabber's nightmare - idaho. here in idaho, the police give concealed carry permits to anyone over 21 without a criminal record. there are no gungrabber schemes such as foids, waiting periods, "gun a month," or ltcs. and horror of horrors! you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon while outside of city limits (although you do need a permit for concealed carry in an automobile). i feel a hell of a lot safer in boise than i would in your gun ban dream state (e.g., washington, d.c.). the press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it ! the voting public in idaho is staunchly pro-gun. both senators are nra-endorsed "a" rated! buy a clue, pal. surrender your arms. soon enough, officers will be around to collect them. resistance is useless. they will overwhelm you - one at a time. your neighbors will not help you. they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'. get out your wallet and buy another clue. there are millions upon millions of pre-1968 (i.e., non-4473'ed) firearms out there. they have a half-life approaching eternity. and cosmoline is not exactly tracked by the feds. too fucking bad. you have gone the way of the kkk. violent solutions are passe'. avoid situations which encourage criminals. then you will be as safe as possible. such as it is ... gun control laws were passed to protect the kkk from blacks! betz@gozer.idbsu.edu *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho *** *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights *** *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc, semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium 
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 (frank crary) says: ...i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting. that is the recommended way to practice with a ccw, too. aim alone is no d for defense, if you can't get the gun rapidly. very true but the way it was being done was just a little unusual. it looked to me like they were practicing to shoot someone... the point that i forgot to bring up here (and this has nothing to do with being a gang member or not) is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in this area (or in the state of illinois for that matter). this is not to say that people in illinois don't carry concealed weapons illegaly but practicing like that when there are other people around wasn't too bright of an idea. there isn't necessarily a conflict between practicing with a concealed weapon for self-defence and practicing to shoot someone. armed self-defence does occasionally involve shooting an attacker. frank crary cu boulder i agree. if you don't practice at all and carry a gun for self-defense you most likely would be in big trouble if a situation were to arise. jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu 
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 steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (jason 'think!' steiner) says: say you're in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody. you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them. my question is what do you do? should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass (if you're using a semi-auto) and get out of there (provided of course you don't think that you have been seen)? what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation? what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense? what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught? ghods. do you have -any- idea how much trouble you'd get into for taking off like that? leaving the scene of an auto accident is bad enough! killing someone & leaving is 10 times worse. who's going to seriously believe it was self-defense when you took the time to collect your spent casings? "but officer, i reload!" well, like someone said in a reply to this it really all depends on the area that you live in. see david veal's reply to this. i have heard exactly the same thing that he said in his reply - to fade away if you think that you haven't been seen (i heard this from a police officer). for the record though he was talking about in tennessee - not everywhere. even if you could get away with it, you're still a fugitive. do it nice & legal, keep your law-abiding status & send your story into the armed citizen column of american rifleman. jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu 
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 says: <u28037@uicvm.uic.edu i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net. say you're in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody. you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them. my question is what do you do? should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass (if you're using a semi-auto) and get out of there (provided of course you don't think that you have been seen)? as a data point from tennessee, a friend of mine and a police officer essentially recommends that if you can, fade away. even if you were perfectly justified you're likely in for a great deal of hassle. (a side note, carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor.) this is exactly what i have heard before. if you were to fade away and nobody saw you what kind of evidence would they be able to get to catch you (this is assuming that you either collected your brass or had a revolver)? what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation? what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense? what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught? it's one of those "by state" things, pretty much. guess it's time to take a trip to the library and look at the illinois statutes again :-) just for the record folks i'm just asking this because i'm curious. i'm just trying to find out from people who have read more on stuff like this. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu 
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 [moderator: nice summary, keith, thanks.] i talked to the federal dept. of justice (doj, ottawa) to try and clarify a bunch of things regarding changes to canadian gun laws. i am posting here for informational purposes; questions to email, followup to t.p.g. 1. it is still technically feasible (but almost impossible) to get a concealed carry permit in canada. this is contrary to what i was told by a police officer. 2. it is still legal to use lethal force (such as a firearm) to protect life, also contrary to what the officer told me. guns must be stored locked up and unloaded, however. 3. regarding hi-capacity magazines, it is still not clear who will be exempt or how this will be managed. this is up to each province. the general idea is that exempt persons will receive a letter/form authorizing them to possess the high capacity magazines. apparently, the authorization is to specify how many of these 'prohibited weapons' you will be allowed to possess. dealers will be allowed to order high capacity mags for those allowed to possess them, but will not be allowed to stock them. 4. high capacity magazines converted to comply with the new limits will not be considered prohibited weapons. amendments to the regulations specify some possible methods to alter the magazines. some manufacturers (beretta) will be marketing reduced capacity magazines. (god knows how much they'll charge for these) this covers most of what we discussed. i have typed this from memory, do not take it as gospel. i am not a lawyer and i refuse to play one on tv. | keith p. de solla, p.eng | ipsc ontario, oha, nfa, sfc, ofah | | keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca | frontenac rifle and pistol club | 
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 article in this morning's houston post...."negotiators send food to rebellious inmates as humanitarian gesture"...speaking about the ohio prison riot where they have killed at least one of the hostage guards. i know it's not the same "group" but the mindset appears to be common to "those what rule" here lately....they won't give diddley to the bd's in waco but they treat criminals as deserving of "humanitarian gestures". this is but another indicator that the criminal caste seems to enjoy more priviliges in today's society than their victims or other law abiding citizens. what is it that makes the criminal so precious to the "leaders of the system"? could it be that the criminal is one of the "tools" the "authorities" are using to "excuse" some of the rights negation they are trying to foist upon the law abiding citizen in the name of crime control....don't solve the crime problem because then the citizen couldn't be held hostage to "our help". if the crime problem were solved in favor of the citizen/victim at the expense of the criminal none of the crap such as rico and gun banning could be used as excuses to work the agenda of those who would control our every move and thought. . olx 2.2 . if i have to explain, you wouldn't understand. | ye olde bailey bbs 713-520-1569 (v.32bis) 713-520-9566 (v.32bis) | | houston,texas yob.sccsi.com home of alt.cosuard | 
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 [note, ohio legislation unlike federal legislation, shows the entire law as it would be changed by the legislation. these parts are in all capitals, the rest (i.e., current law is in regular type)]. as introduced 120th general asembly regular session h. b. no. 278 1993-1994 represenative beatty a bill to amend sections2923.11, 2923.17,and 2923.20 and to enact section 2923.181 of the revised code to expand the defintion of dangerous ordnance to include military weapons that do not use bolt action, to increase the penalty for a violation of the prohibition against possession of dangerous ordnance, to prohibit any person from acquiring a military weapon on or after the act's effective date, to require the licensure of military weapons acquired for aproper purpose prior to the act's effective dte, to prohibit a person from importing, manufacturing, or selling a military weapon, and to declare an emergency. be it enacted by the general assembly of the state of ohio: section 1. that sections 2923.11, 2923.17 and 2923.20 be amended and section 2923.181 of the revised code be enacted to read as follows: sec. 2923.11. as used in section 2923.11 to 2923.24 of the revised code: (a) "deadly weapon" means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon. (b)(1) "firearm" means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant. "firarms" includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm which is inoperable but which can readily be rendered operable. (2) when determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstancial evidence, including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm. (c) "handgun" means any firearm designed to be fired while held in one hand. (d) "semi-automatic firearm" means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a single cartridge and automatically chamber a suceeding cartridge ready to fire, with a single function of the trigger. (e) "automatic firearm" means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. "automatic firearm" also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle (f) "sawed-off firearm" means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long, or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long, or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty-six inches long overall. (g) "zip-gun" means any of the following: (1) any firearm of crude and extemporized manufacture; (2) any device, including without limitation a starter's pistol, not designed as a firearm, but which is specially adapted for use as a firearm; (3) any industrial tool, signalling device, or safety device, not designed as a firearm, but which as designed is capable of use as such a firearm, when possessed, carried, or used as a firearm. (h) "explosive device" means any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of an explosion, and consisting of an explosive substance or agency and a means to detonate it. "explosive device" includes without limitation any bomb, any explosive demolition device, any blasting cap or detonator containing an explosive charge, and any pressure vessel which has been knowingly tampered with or arranged so as to explode. (i) "incendiary device" means any firebomb, and any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of fire, and consisting of an incendiary substance or agency and a means to ignite it. (j) "ballistic knife" means a knife with a detachable blade that is propelled by a spring-operated mechanism. (k) "dangerous ordinance" means any of the following, except as provided in division (l) of this section: (1) any automatic or sawed-off firearms. zip-gun, or ballistic knife; (2) any explosive device or incendiary device; (3) nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, nitrostarch, petn, cyclonite, tnt, picric acid, and other high explosives; amatol, tritonal, tetrytol, pentolite, pecretol, cyclotol, and other high explosive compositions; plastic explosives; dynamite, blasting gelatin, gelatin dynamite, sensitized ammonium nitrate, liquid- oxygen blasting explosives, blasting powder, and other blasting agents; and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive, or for use in mining, quarrying, excavating, or demolitions; (4) any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon; (5) any firearm muffler or silencer; (6) any military weapon; (7) any detachable magazine, magazine, drum, belt, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that readily can be restored or converted to accept, more than fifteen rounds of ammunition; (8) any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordinance. (l) "dangerous ordnance" does not include any of the following: (1) any firearm, including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon, and regardless of its actual age, which employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system or which is designed and safe for use only with black powder, and (2) any pistol, rifle, or shotgun, designed or suitable for sporting purposes, unless the firearm is either of the following; (a) a military weapon as issued or as modified, and the ammunition for that weapon; (b) an automatic or sawed-off firearm. (3) any cannon or other artilery piece which, regardless of its actual age, is of a type in accepted use prior to 1887, has no mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage, and is designed and safe for use only with black powder; (4) black powder, priming quills, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division (l) (3) of this section during displays, celebrations, organized matches or shoots, and target practice, and smokeless and black powder, primers, and percussion caps possed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small-arms or small-arms ammunition; (5) dangerous ordinance which is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated, and which is kept as a trophy, souvenir, curio, or museum piece. (6) any device which is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the "gun control act of 1968," 82 stat. 1213, 18 u.s.c. 921(a)(4), as amended, and regulations issued under that act. (m) "military weapon' means any of the following; (1) any firearm that originally was manufactured for military use, or a copy of any such firearm, if the firearm is not a bolt action firearm; (2) any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a rifle or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a rifle; (a) armalite ar-180; (b) auto-ordnance thompson models 1927a1 and m-1; (c) avtomat kalashnikov; (d) poly tech ak-47s; (e) china sports ak-47 bullpup; (f) mitchell ak-47 and m-76 (g) barrett light-fifty model 82a1; (h) baretta ar-70; (i) bushmaster auto rifle; (j) calico m900 and m-100 (k) colt ar-15 (l) commando arms carbine, mark 111, mark 45, and mark 9; (m) universal 5000 carbine, enforcer; (n) american arms arm-1 and aky 39; (o) daewoo max-1 and max-2; (p) fabrique nationale fn/fal, fn/lar. and fn/fnc; (q) famas mas 223; (r) feather at-9; (s) federal kc-900 and xc-450 (t) galil ar and arm; (u) goncz high-tech carbine; (v) heckler and koch hk-91, hk-93, hk-94, and psg-1; (w) mandall tac-1 carbine (x) ruger mini 14/sf folding stock model; (y) sig 57 amt and 500 series; (z) springfield armory sar-48, g-3, bm-59 alpine, and m1a carbine; (aa) sterling mk-6 and mark 7; (bb) steyr aug; (cc) uzi carbine and mini-carbine; (dd) valmet m-62s, m-76, m-78, and m82 bullpup carbine; (ee) weaver arms nighthawk; (ff) military m14 and military m1 carbine .30; (gg) springfield armory m1a assault; (hh) thompson 27a-5 with drum magazine; (ii) plainfield commando universe 5000 carbine; (jj) cobray m-11 with or without silencer; (kk) spectre auto carbine; (ll) swd cobray; (mm) armi jager ap-74 and ap-74 commando; (nn) armscorp of america israeli fn-fal; (oo) clayco sks carbine; (pp) dragunov sniper; (qq) emf ap-74; (rr) iver johnson pm30 p paratrooper; (ss) norinco sks; (tt) partisan avenger; (uu) sigarms sg 550 sp and sg 551 sp; (vv) squires bingham m 16; (ww) wilkinson "terry" carbine. (3) any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a pistol or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a pistol: (a) bushmaster auto pistol; (b) calico 100-p auto pistol; (c) ebcin nj-iv, mp-9, and mp-45; (d) feather mini-at; (e) goncz high tech pistol' (f) holmes mp-83 and mp-22; (g) intratec tec-9 and scorpion .22; (h) iver johnson enforcer; (i) ingram mac-10 and mac-11; (j) mitchell arms spectre auto; (k) scarab skorpion; (l) sterling mk-7; (m) uzi pistol; (n) universal enforcer; (o) wilkinson "linda" auto pistol. (4) any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a shotgun or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi-automatic firearm and is a shotgun: (a) franchi spas-12 and law-12; (b) striker 12 and street sweeper; (c) benelli m1 super 90; (d) mossberg 500 bullpup; (e) usas-12 auto shotgun. sec. 2923.17. (a)(1) no person shall knowingly acquire, have, or carry any dangerous ordnance. (2) no person shall knowingly use any dangerous ordnance. (b) this section does not apply to any of the following: (1) officers, agents, or employees of this or any other state or the united states, members of the armed forces of the united states or the organized militia of this or any other state, and law enforcement officers, to the extent that any such person is authorized to acquire, have, carry, or use dangerous ordnance and is acting within the scope of his duties; (2) importers, manufacturers, dealers, and users of explosives, having a license or user permit issued and in effect pursuant to the "organized crime control act of 1970," 84 stat. 952, 18 u.s.c. 843, and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act, with respect to explosives and explosive devices lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law; (3) importers, manufactuers, and dealers having a license to deal in destructive devices or their ammunition, issued and in effect pursuant to the "gun control act of 1968," 82 stat. 1213. 18 u.s.c. 923 and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act, with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law; (4) persons to whom surplus ordnance has been sold, loaned, or given by the secretary of the army pursuant to 70a stat. 62 and 263, 10 u.s.c. 4684, 4685, 4686, and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act, with respect to dangerous ordnance when lawfully possessed and used for the purpose specified in that section; (5) owners of dangerous ordnance registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record pursuant to the act of october 22, 1968, 82 stat.1229, 26 u.s.c. 5841, and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of, and regulations issued under the act. (6) carriers, warehousemen, and others engaged in the business of transporting or storing goods for hire, with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully transported or stored in the usual course of their business and in compliance with the laws of this state and applicable federal law; (7) the holders of a license or temporary permit issued and in effect pursuant to section 2923.18 of the revised code, with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, or used for the purposes and in the manner specified in the license or permit. (c) division (a)(1) of this section does not apply to the acquisition, having, or carrying of dangerous ordnance that is a military weapon if both of the following apply: (1) the person who acquires, has, or carries the dangerous ordnance in question acquired it before the effective date of this amendment as a collector's item or for a legitimate research, scientific, educational, industrial, or other proper purpose; (2) no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this amendment, the person who acquired the dangerous ordnance in question in accordance with division (c)(1) of this section submitted an application pursuant to section 2923.181 of the revised code for a license to have and carry it and the application has not been denied or a valid license has been issued to the person. (d) divisions (a)(1) and (2) of this section do not apply to the acquisition, having, carrying, or using of any dangerous ordnance described in division (k)(7) of section 2923.11 of the revised code that was acquired prior to the effective date of this amendment. (e) whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance, a an aggravated felony of the first degree. sec. 2923.181. (a) any person who acquired a military weapon before the effective date of this section shall file a written application for a license to have and carry the military weapon with the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business. the application shall be filed no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this section and shall be accompanied by a filing fee of fifty dollars. the person shall file a separate application and pay a separate filing fee for each military weapon that he has or intends to carry. the application shall contain all of the following information: (1) the name, age, address, occupation, and business address of the applicant, if the applicant is a natural person, or the name, address, and principal place of business of the applicant, if the applicant is a corporation; (2) a description of the military weapon for which a license is requested, including the serial number and all identification marks; (3) a statement of the purpose for which the military weapon was acquired and for which it is to be possessed, carried, or used; (4) any other information that the issuing authority may require in giving effect to this section; (5) the oath of the applicant that the information on the application is true. (b)(1) no later than the close of business on the fourteenth day after an application for a license to have and carry a military weapon has been filed under division (a) of this section, the issuing authority shall either approve the application and issue a license to the applicant or deny the application and send a letter of denial by ordinary mail to the applicant. after conducting any necessary investigation, the issuing authority shall issue a license to an applicant whom it determines satisfies the following criteria: (a) the applicant is twenty-one years of age or older, if the applicant is a natural person; (b) it appears that the applicant will possess and carry the military weapon as a collector's item or for a legitimate, scientific, educational, industrial, or other proper purpose; (c) it appears that the applicant has sufficient competence to have and carry the military weapon and that proper precautions will be taken to ensure the security of the military weapon and the safety of persons and property; (d) the applicant otherswise is not prohibited by law from having or carrying dangerous ordnance. (2) a license issued pursuant to division (b)(1) of this section shall be valid for one year after the date of its issuance. the license shall be renewed pursuant to division (c) of this section. (c)(1) except as provided in division (c)(3) of this section, any person who is issued a license under division (b)(1) of this section shall renew the license by filing an application for renewal by regular mail with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation who was the issuing authority of the license. an application for renewal shall be filed annually no later than one year after the date on which the license was issued or last renewed. (2) each sheriff and each safety director and peace officer of a municipal corporation shall make available applications for the renewal of a license issued under division (b)(1) of this section. in the application the applicant, under oath, shall update the information submitted in the previous application for a license or the renewal of a license. the application for the renewal of a license shall be accompanied by a fee of five dollars. the applicant shall file a seperate application for renewal and pay a seperate renewal fee for each military weapon that he intends to continue to have and (3) a person who has changed his residence or principal place of business to a location outside of the jurisdiction of the issuing authority subsequent to the issuance or renewal of a license under this section shall renew his license by filing an application in the manner prescribed by division (a) of this section with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where he then resides or has his principal place of business. when making an application to renew a license after a change in residence or place of business, the applicant shall give notice of the change of address by regular mail to the original issuing authority for the license and the state fire marshall on notification forms prescribed by the sheriff, safety director, or police chief from whom he seeks renewal. (d) a license to have and carry a military weapon shall identify the person to whom it is issued, identify the military weapon for which it is issued, state the purpose identified in division (b)(1)(b) of this section for which the military weapon will be possessed and carried, state its expiration date, and list all restrictions on the having or carrying of the military weapon as prescribed by the laws of this state and applicable federal law. (e) any person who is issued a license to have and carry a military weapon under this section and who changes his address shall notify the issuing authority of the change of his address no later than ninety days after the change has occurred. (f) the issuing authority shall forward to the state fire marshall a copy of each license issued or renewed under this section. the state fire marshall shall keep a permanent file of all licenses issued or renewed under this section. (g) the issuing authority shall cause each application fee of fifty dollars, filed under division (a) of this section, to be deposited in the general fund of the county or muncipal corporation served by the issuing authority. the issuing authority shall cause two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee, filed under division (c) of this section, to be deposited in the general fund of the county or municipal corporation served by the issuing authority and shall send two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee to the treasurer of state for deposit in the state treasury to the credit of the general revenue fund. (h) whoever violates division (a) of this section is guilty of failing to apply for the licensure of a military weapon, a felony of the fourth degree. whoever violates division (c) of this section is guilty of failing to apply for renewal of a license for a military weapon, a misdemeanor of the first (i) a military weapon that is not licensed as required by this section is contraband, as defined in section 2901.01 of the revised code and is subject to forfeiture under section 2933.43 of the revised code. sec. 2933.20. (a) no person shall do any of the following: (1) import, manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person any military weapon; (2) recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the revised code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the revised code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance; (3) possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (a) of this section; (4) manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work, any brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon; (5) when transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferes to exhibit any identification, license, or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the revised code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of the record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place; (6) knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in such person's possession or under his (b) whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful transactions in weapons. violation of division (a)(1) of this section is an aggravated felony of the first degree. violation of division (a)(2) or (3) oof this section is a felony of the third degree. violation of division (a) (4) or (5) of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree. violation of division (6) of this section is a midemeanor of the fourth section 2. that existing section 2923.11, 2923.17 and 2923.20 of the revised code are hereby repealed. section 3. this act is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety. the reason for this necessity is that with immediate action, this act will prohibit the continued purchase, possession, and use of military weapons and as a result will ameliorate a substantial threat of death and injury to the public caused by the misuse of improper use of these weapons. therefore, this act shall go into immediate effect. larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54220">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54220" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 |in article <2001.150.uupcb@yob.sccsi.com>, jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (jim wray) |says: |> bill vojak: |> bv>i read in the paper yestarday that ted turner wants to "trim" down |> bv>his media holdings and is putting cnn up for sale. the #1 potential |> bv>bidder? time/warner of course. sigh . . . . . just what we need. :-( |> maybe now's the time for us, the nra, goa, ccrtkba, saf, et al to band |> together and buy cnn as *our* voice. wouldn't that be sumpin....broadcast |> the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro-gun item or two... |i would like to see this happen. i don't think it will. i don't |think the average gun-owner will take any notice of what is happening |until they break down his door. |but i will go on record publicly to the effect that i will contribute a |minimum of $1,000.00 to the buy-out fund if it can be organized and made |viable. anybody else want to put their money where their mouth is? :) |there ar 50+ million gun owners out there. if - and it's a big and |not very realistic if - we got hold of cnn, the anti-gun bullshit would |stop right there. why won't it happen - because nobody will get off their |ass and make it happen. nuts. i will join the ranks here. if someone has the ability to actually put this thing together and get enough support, i'll also contribute $1000 to the effort. and jeeze, people, i'm a *student*, with *no job* yet, and i will put up my own hard-earned savings if it means we have a shot at getting the truth told on the airwaves. count me in. mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54221">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54221" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 |there are a lot of automobile accidents, but atleast there is some |regulation to try to combat this. when i got my drivers license, i had |to take a drivers safety class. i have to be licensed to drive. my car |must be registered. i must (at least where i live) have liability |insurance on both myself driving and my car (if someone else had an |accident with it). hmm, wouldn't manditory saftey classes, registration |of both the owner and gun, and manditory liability insurance be nice for |gun owners. as i'm sure others will have pointed out to you by now, none of the above measures are required for you *on your own property*. you do not have to have a license, your car does not have to be registered or inspected, and you do not have to have insurance or safety training classes, when you own and operate that vehicle on your own premises. if you are going to make use of this dubious analogy, at least make it accurate. and by the way, in texas you can drive a car in public (with the proper credentials), but an ordinary civilian can't carry a gun legally in public to save his/her life. so i won't even consider registration, *manadatory* safety classes, or *manadatory* liability insurance unless i get a federal law repealing all local, state, and federal gun control laws which abridge the second amendment, and a non-discretionary federal weapons carry permit, good anywhere in the united states. come on, you wanted the analogy. mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54222">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54222" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 :you are loosing. "loosing"? well, i'll avoid the spelling flames and see if this person can make up for it. :there is no question about it. oh, there's lots of question about it. people are becoming more aware each day that their rights are being threatened, so much so that nra membership is growing at the rate of nearly 2,000 per *day*. we are slowly gaining our rightful voice, despite the biases, prejudices, and veiled motives of the liberal media and anti-gun politicians. we will win. :of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. no matter :how hard you try, public opinion is set against the rkba. what do you base this on? some highly-skewed poll conducted by nbc news? the same group who faked gm pickup explosions just to make "news"? right. :this is the end. by the finish of the clinton administration, your :rkba will be null and void. tough titty. it is true that we face even greater obstacles to our rights, betrayed by those lying politicians who swear an oath to protect the constitution "from all enemies, both foreign and domestic." but the people will take only so many lies and deceits. :you had better discover ways to make do without firearms. the number of :cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. there is nothing you :can do about it. those who live by the sword shall die by it. then the criminals who live by murder shall die by it. honest, law-abiding citizens need have no fear on that count. you, however, will evidently die by (or at least in) ignorance. and the number of firearms self-defenses shall spell out our ultimate victory. :the press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against :you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it ! the flow of history was against the founding fathers, but they managed to successfully form the first real free republic on the face of this planet, a republic that has become the model for all others to follow. the press is against us, for its own selfish motivations. and the people will soon realize the depths of deceit being spread by that media, and nullify its ill-directed power. the people are with us. :surrender your arms. soon enough, officers will be around to collect :them. resistance is useless. they will overwhelm you - one at a time. :your neighbors will not help you. they will consider you more if an :immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'. i shall never submit to an illegal, unconstitutional police state. i will take my own vow to uphold the constitution, and i shall defend it and my country against a tyrannical government gone mad, should it become :too fucking bad. you have gone the way of the kkk. violent solutions :are passe'. avoid situations which encourage criminals. then you will :be as safe as possible. such as it is ... i will not be your sacrificial sheep, and i shall not bow down to you or anyone else who seeks to control my life. being an unarmed target is the surest way of encouraging criminals, and believe me, i shall avoid it as much as possible. then i shall be as safe as possible. i will answer with violence only when no other option exists, but i shall surely answer. mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54223">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54223" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 :yea, there are millions of cases where yoy *say* that firearms :'deter' criminals. alas, this is not provable. i think that that :there are actually *few* cases where this is so. you "think" wrong. ask the fbi. they've got the proof. look it up. :the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary :opponents ... those who posessa a cool jakcet you want, those who :would argue with you about a parking space, those who would :take your woman. in short, trivial and worthless causes. you lie like a snake. the "vast majority" of the 200 million firearms in this country are never used in anger. your feelings notwithstanding. :too much of this has ruined you cause. there is no recovery. :in the near future, federal martials will come for your arms. :no one will help you. you are more dangerous, to their thinking, :than the 'criminal'. this is your own fault. we will overcome the kind of blind, pig-headed, utterly stupid idiocy that you and others spout in a vain attempt to further your own agendas. we will make the truth be known, despite your best efforts to the contrary. :the 2nd amendment is dead. accept this. find another way. the second amendment won't be dead unless it is repealed. that won't happen. accept this. find another way to try and control other's lives, because we see you for what you are, and we are not fooled. mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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</instance>
<instance id="talk.politics.guns54225">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54225" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 i balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the independent facts as i see them on video. i usually adopt the scenario that is simplest and most plausible. i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely then answer the question: why was no one else permitted to talk to koresh, koresh had a lawyer, deguin(?) who he spoke to in person several times during the last few weeks. it cannot be denied that if they had left them alone, there would have been no fire yesterday. this strikes me as a tad ingenous. "if x had done/note done y, then z would never have happened." i tend to place tha responsibility on the group/person actually committing the act, not on those whon "forced them to do it". after all, to take an extreme example, if the british were not in northern ireland, the ira would not be forced to place bombs in shopping centers. that said, this whole sorry story was a totally unecessary, utterly fucked up mess from the get go. semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54227">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54227" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self-inflicted gun- shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters? no, but i have several other breakdowns of accidental shootings. i've never seen one that specifically provides the info that davis insists that he has, so i'd love to have a cite. if you fall, for example, and land on the handgun or cause a sudden blow, the gun will discharge. wrong. there's one gun design where that can happen, and it is supposed to be carried with the hammer over an unloaded chamber. (cocking the gun turns the cylinder so that a loaded cylinder is under the hammer. in other words, it can be usefully carried in a safe manner.) other handgun designs don't have that property; if their trigger isn't pulled, the hammer can't hit the firing pin. the number of people killed in this manner far outweighs the number of deaths caused by animal attacks or "wacko" attacks combined. the breakdowns that i do have include the above category. from them i can safely say that if davis is right in all of his claims, a large negative number of people are killed by animals, because we know that the number of killings by wackos is reasonably large and that the number of accidents due to gun failures (which is a superset of the described circumstance) is near zero. i can find the figures if you don't believe me. please do. include a cite for those of us who like looking at context. make sure that your source excludes other types of accidents and suicides that are misreported. ("gun cleaning accident" is police-speak for "the family needs the insurance money.") 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54228">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54228" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 |in l.a., the first recorded survivor of a .357 shot to the heart. that |lady not only killed her attacker, but chased him down to do it! all |four of her shots, fired after she had been shot, struck the perp. atta |girl! the bullet entered her on a downward angle, went through the apex |of her heart, down through the diaphragm, clipped her liver and |destroyed her spleen. it then exited her back leaving a tennis ball |sized hole. she died about six times on the operating table, but was |out of the hospital in 15 days and was back on full duty in eight |months! she was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest. she was |on her way home so happened to have her gun. no, she doesn't think |civilians should have the same rights. sigh. well, if police think they are so special that only _they_ are worthy of self-defense, perhaps we start putting the arm on police; maybe we should start demanding that police are only police when on-duty, that after that they are just like the ordinary disarmed helpless chumps they consider "civilians." let's prohibit arms carrying by police when off-duty. or, if they make the assertion that "well, i need to maintain my gun" let's make it regulation that they can carry an unloaded firearm home, that it's only fair that they be just as helpless as poor schmuck coming home from his computer operator job... nra director/ex-san jose cop leroy pyle states in the latest swat magazine that anti-cops better watch out for this schism between rkba folks and the police. he asks the rhetorical question of 'what if what's left of the gun lobby starts demanding the disarmament of the police?" well, i guess anti-gun cops who think only they should be armed, along with the wealthy and politically connected, should be made to realize that screwing can cut in ways they have yet to imagine. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54232">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54232" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 what about guns with non-lethal bullets, like rubber or plastic bullets. would those work very well in stopping an attack? ask the brits. enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain "controlled" circumstances. and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher. there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets (for shotguns). i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers, ie. for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal. in general, they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you. they are fired at very low muzzle velocity (the .38 ball round is intended for a 400fps load). finally, as your mother warned you, you can put an eye out with that thing. :-) dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 recently while looking around in traders sporting goods store, a very well stocked firearms store, i discovered a printed document that was being distributed by the good folks who work there. traders, btw, is located in san leandro, ca. the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads - which is why you no longer see the ads that traders, san leandro, has run for many years. these ads were run for the law-abiding honest citizens who own firearms for sporting use or self-protection. they certainly have the right to do so, under the second amendment right to bear arms. are you sure about this? i'm currently looking at a copy of last thursday's sf chronicle and there is the typical one column traders ad on page c7 in the sports section. not only that, but there is a part in the middle which rather prominently says "wanted: we pay cash for assault rifles and pistols.". granted, i haven't seen today's paper yet. but i'd be surprised if there wasn't a traders ad in it. it's probably worth it to write to the chronicle (and other papers) anyway, because all their anti-gun editorials are disgusting. by the way, let me put in a plug for traders. i have shopped all over the sf bay area and i have never seen another store with lower prices. and their selection is amazing. lee gaucher | my opinions. gaucher@sam.cchem.berkeley.edu | no one else's. 
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 / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / hays@ssd.intel.com (kirk hays) / 3:31 pm apr 13, 1993 / some of the pro-gun posters in this group own no guns. the dread "terminator", aka "the rifleman", owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group, as an example. there are for what it is worth, i own no firearms of any sort. as long-time readers of this group know, i am dedicated to the rkba. this is not about toys. it is about freedom. dave barton dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com 
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 (btw - which parts should be secure? criminal records, ie convictions, are typically considered public information, so should that info be secure? remember, the population includes parents checking prospective childcare worker.) parent's checking a babysitter shouldn't need access to the information stored in the card. sure they do. the prospective sitter may have a nasty habit of molesting kids three or four months into the job. the references may not have known him long enough or may not have picked up on this yet. remember, criminal conviction info is public, so if you're going to argue for an id card, other people are going to have a strong argument that it disclose public info. as perhaps some insight into how this sort of thing works, the local college newspaper had a big crusade to have the u.t. police release crime stats. (the school claimed that to do so would violate federal education records privacy laws). they swore up and down they weren't interested in student discipline records, only for stats so people could make an evaluation of how safe the campus was. it was barely a week after crime stats were released before the daily beacon had an editorial calling for student disciplinary stats to be released, because they complained certain segments of the campus population were treated administratively rather than turned over to the police and therefore the criminal states weren't accurate. what people say they want public today may not be what they say tomorrow. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 rm:just a short thought: when you ask the question of the "authorities" or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer "no, it's total amnesty". please note that the $50 given for each firearm, in the boston `buy back' will not be in cash, but money orders. how much `total amnesty" can you get if you leave paper trail behind? in the latest case in denver, they were giving away tickets to a denver nuggets basketball game. how traceable is a money order? (i don't know. haven't used one in 20 years) money orders operate pretty much like checks, with both parties being supposed to sign them. i assume you'd have to show the buy-back people an id, and you'd then have a money order made out to that id. as far as traceable as a practical matter, i don't know, it would depend on whether they bother to computerize who the recipient's name is on the money order and bother keying that sort of thing in. i'd say certainly the police and the buyback people would keep a record of who they gave money orders out to. is that even an issue if the weapons aren't checked for being stolen? there might be some questions asked, i suppose, if somebody brought in a number of weapons each time over a series of "buy back" david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54240">
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 as quoted from <c5j5im.3c9@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> by rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (morris the cat): | firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area. | it would not be economic to smuggle them in. all production | would have to be local. there are not all that many people | who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile | firearms from scratch. high-ranking crime figures could | obtain imported uzis and such, but the average person, and | average thug, would be lucky to get a zip-gun - and would | pay through the nose for it. this is not borne out of reality; the old soviet union had a very serious domestic handgun and submachinegun trade, guns that were of commercial grade because they were produced in honest-to-goodness machineshops. why would all production have to be local; don't we have a road system that is the envy of the world? if anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the "you can't build guns" claim, they need look no farther than the philippines. amateur gunsmiths there regularly produce everything from .45 automatics to full auto shotguns. now if this guy wants to claim that the philippines is either technologically superior to the us or that their transportation is better than ours, all i can say is that he's living in a fantasy world. "you're like a bunch of over-educated, new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas" - holly silva 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54243">
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 for what it is worth, i own no firearms of any sort. as long-time readers of this group know, i am dedicated to the rkba. a long-time reader of t.p.g, i am also a staunch rkba supporter, yet i own no firearms. this is not about toys. it is about freedom. amen, brother. nicholas sylvain (sylvain@netcom.com) --- i am the nra nicholas sylvain (sylvain@netcom.com) --- i am the nra 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54245">
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 as quoted from <1993apr14.184448.2331@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu: firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area. it would not be economic to smuggle them in. that depends only on the profit of doing so. the differences in cost of production will determine local vs smuggle. would have to be local. there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile those of us who have actually made semi-autos (full-autos are easier) are getting quite a giggle out of this. i'd estimate that 5% of the people at my high school couldn't do it. (i was one of the few who failed shop.) people who have actually seen me do mechanical work would probably say that 1% is more like it. starting with even 90% of the population, you can be sure that "enough" people will be motivated. firearms from scratch. high-ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such, but the average person, and average thug, would be lucky to get a zip-gun - and would pay through the nose for it. how much is "through the nose"? after all, we know quite a bit about how much a gun is worth to a criminal, so if that is dwarfed by the price demanded by the "bad" part of that 90%.... the relevant economic analysis has been made. the "profit" of gun crime is high enough that the price required to push criminals out of the market is high enough that everyone will be motivated. that analysis ignored some "improvements" in the criminal gun market that could make them even cheaper. (they're not efficiently used now, but a "loaner" set up would drive the value still higher without affecting criminal use.) 
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 103d congress 1st session h. r. 1276 to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. in the house of representatives march 10, 1993 mr. bartlett introduced the following bill; which was referred to the committee on the judiciary a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. be it enacted by the senate and house of representa- tives of the united states of america in congress assembled, section 1. short title. this act may be cited as the "citizens' self-defense act of 1993". sec. 2. right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home; enforcement. (a) establishment of right. -- a person not pro- hibited by federal law from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use fire- arms in defense of self, family, or home. (b) firearm defined. -- as used in subsection (a), the term "firearm" means a -- (1) shotgun (as defined in section 921(a)(5) of title 18, united states code); (2) rifle (as defined in section 921(a)(7) of such title); or (3) handgun (as defined in section 10 of public law 99-408). (c) enforcement of right. -- (1) in general. -- a person whose right under subsection (a) is violated in any manner may bring an action in any united states district court against the united states, any state, or any person for damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as the court deems appropriate. (2) authority to award a reasonable at- torney's fee. -- in an action brought under para- graph (1), the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing party, other than a state, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs. (d) statute of limitations. -- an action may not be brought under subsection (c)(1) after the 5-year period that begins with the date the violation described therein is discovered. ------------------------ (end of hr 1276) ------------------------ well, this sounds good to me. the key is section (2)(c)(2), which will effectively open up the federal court system to all the folks who can't afford to adopt an attorney with whom to fight city hall. all of you who've been saying "hey, isn't that illegal?" could just go hire your own attorneys on a pay-if-you-win ("contingency fee") basis, and sue the bums ... :-) what you can do now: (1) write your representative, and ask them to co-sponsor hr 1276. (2) write representative roscoe bartlett, the sponsor -- representative roscoe bartlett 312 cannon house office building washington, d.c. 20515 -- to tell him who your own representative is, and that you've asked them to join him as a co-sponsor of hr 1276. (3) contact gun owners of america -- gun owners of america 8001 forbes place springfield, virginia 22151 -- which has committed to lobby on behalf of hr 1276. (4) for those of us with a realjob (tm), find out how to reach representative bartlett's campaign fund (i'm working on it) and toss in a few bucks. you can bet your bippy that he's going to be one of the hci "targets" in the next election, which isn't that far away (1994). (5) tell your family, friends, gun club, etc. enjoy ... :-) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54247">
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 newspaper ad censorship the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads - which is why you no longer see the ads that traders, san leandro, has run for many years. if you are tired of newspapers who run sex and liquor ads galor, yet refuse to run legitimate gun ads, please send a letter to the editors indicating your displeasure over their censorship doctrine. following is a list of bay area newspapers who censor gun ads. perhaps you'd like to send them your thoughts on this issue! contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob 5088 pob 5400 901 mission st. walnut creek, ca 94596 san mateo, ca 94402 san francisco, ca 94103 san fran. independent san fran. examiner san jose mercury news 1201 evans ave 110 5th st. 750 ridder park dr. san fran., ca 94124 san fran., ca 94103 san jose, ca 95190 i have the april 15, 1993 issue of the sf chronicle in my lap. page e7 (in the "sporting green" section) has a trader's advert. (the copy is a bit screwed up - it says that the prices offered expire 4-14-93, but the ad is there.) the sf examiner and chronicle run the same set of adverts (because they have a joint printing/biz agreement and differ only in editorial content). i've seen gun ads recently in the merc, which is anti-gun editorially, albeit not from traders, but from its competitors. i don't know about the other papers. does traders claim that things are changing? when? - why tv journalists lie because it's easier than telling the truth and no one much cares either way. let me know if you write to any of these bozos. before you do, make sure that the bozos are actually doing what you're accusing them of. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54248">
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 |> do you rambos who worry so much about rape and murder in the |> wilderness also carry your guns all the time at home too? you |> should, since you're in a hell of a lot more danger there than |> in the backcountry. when does carrying a tool classify someone as a rambo. so all the pioneers that came west were rambo's? adrienne!!! :-) |> does anybody reading this group have an actual, honest-to-god |> experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about? |> i can sort of understand the people who want to protect themselves |> from bears and such, although there are, what, maybe a dozen or |> two bear attacks on people in north america each year? but to |> worry about being raped by some buck-toothed bubba in overalls |> is just irrational. i think we'd all be a lot safer if all the |> videocassettes of "deliverance" were gathered up and burned. would your tune change if you were one of the "dozen or two bear attacks"? believe me, when you need a firearm, you need a firearm. |> public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely |> have your gun stolen, use it yourself on a family member or |> have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal. please cite your references. i'll let others (please note followup) cite valid references to show you that this is an untruth. |> the rambo warriors we've heard from here undoubtedly consider |> themselves exempt from this statistical reality -- they're much |> too smart and responsible. living in a city where there's a |> drive-by shooting every couple of days, and working in a medical |> center where a day doesn't go by without a shooting victim coming |> into the er, i'm just a bit skeptical about the value of gun |> ownership. i go to the backcountry to get away from this |> environment, and i don't want to find other people there who |> insist on bringing the urban environment along with them -- boom |> boxes, computers, or guns. well, you might as well go naked. forget the matches, backpack, sleeping bag and all the rest that's is a modern convenience. a firearm is just a tool. as some people won't carry gaiters, some people do. firearms should be in the same category. it should be a personal choice. and your factoid about shooting victims in the er. count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes. maybe we should outlaw |> please post flaming responses to rec.guns.rabid >:-( |> - j. gever, b'ham, ala. marciano pitargue@cisco.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54250">
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 look, if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people, while not interfering with good people, i think we'd all be for it. the problem is, the methods we're using now don't do the trick. don't manufacture them. don't sell them. don't import them. some guns will get through, but far fewer, and far less people will die because of them. hunting weapons could be allowed, of course, as long as they are big, and bulky, and require reloading after a few shots (how many times can you shoot at the same animal, anyways one assumes they are moving!) a better solution: if the 'bad' people can't be trusted with guns, then lock them or knock them off. stop punishing good people. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54251">
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 all your points are very well taken and things that i haven't considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns. that's not all that kratz doesn't know. hell, a glock is the last thing that should be switched to. the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it. sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn't too great of a safety. now we know that kratz doesn't understand what a safety is supposed to do. (he also confuses "things he can see" with "things that exist"; glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside.) a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that's what the user wants. with glocks, one says "i want the gun to go off" by pulling the trigger. if the safeties it has make that work, it has a "real" safety, no matter what kratz thinks. i agree very much. i have read almost every article written about the glock, and imo, it is probably the safest auto-loader made. it has the best safty of all, jeff cooper's first rule, "keep your finger off the trigger until you want to shoot." if everyone just observed this, there would be fewer "accidents". david n. bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54252">
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 ask the brits. enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain "controlled" circumstances. and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher. there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets (for shotguns). i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers, ie. for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal. in general, they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you. they are fired at very low muzzle velocity (the .38 ball round is intended for a 400fps load). finally, as your mother warned you, you can put an eye out with that thing. :-) oh, ok. just wondering. i am not a real expert on weapons, i was just wondering if they would do the job. doug holland 
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 ok, here's something for all of those people who think cops are always more responsible then the rest of the population. i found this article in the rocky mountain collegian, colorado state university's newspaper. suspended police officer arrested in revenge triple homicide providence, r.i. (ap) -- a police officer afraid he would be fired for allegedly assaulting a teen-ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth worked, said "you're going to die" and fatally shot him and two others, police a fourth youth was wounded. a fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car. the wounded youth ran about two blocks to a house after the shooting at about midnight tuesday and called police. he was hospitalized in satisfactory condition wednesday. suspended police officer robert sabetta, 23, of cranston, was arrested at gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at wilson's auto enterprises in foster, a rural town of about 4,000 people in northwest rhode island. well, this just goes to show that cops are capable of snapping, just like everyone else. now who was it who said only cops should have guns? doug holland 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54255">
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 what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion. in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs. gang members. of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time? of course they don't and that's the point i was trying to make. every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in. the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers. so? look in the trunk some time. heck - look at the dash. that funny thing attached with a quick-release is a gun. the ones in the trunk are "better". (i don't have numbers for chicago, but philadelphia police cars carried multiple automatic weapons and thousands of rounds as standard issue in the 60s.) not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat (i mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a disadvantage even with training. what is the nature of this disadvantage? if the cop can shoot, 6 rounds will do the job against a single opponent (especially since the cop has guaranteed backup). if the "gang member" can shoot, the extra rounds don't help. the only time this difference can matter is if neither can shoot, and cops aren't supposed to be throwing lead around like that. btw - most cops carry multiple guns. you're not supposed to know about the second, third, and so on. i have been at a shooting range where gang members were "practicing" shooting. how do "we" know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law-abiding menacing minorities. btw - why the sneer quotes? they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren't doing too badly either. then the extra rounds won't make any difference, so why is it an issue? 
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 all your points are very well taken and things that i haven't considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns. that's not all that kratz doesn't know. guys, guys, (and gals), let's lay off jason here. though he stepped in it, he has been very good so far about admitting he doesn't know what he's talking about, and even more stunning is that he seems anmar mirza # chief of tranquility #my opinions! notiu's!#ciansakgbfbi emt-d # base, lawrence co. in # legalize explosives!#assasinatedea n9isy (tech) # somewhere out on the # politicians prefer #naziplutonium networks tech.# mirza ranch.c'mon over# unarmed peasants. #presidentfema 
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 i know a number of ex-hci members who have recently become nra members. i've never heard of a single one who has gone the other way. i've been a member of the nra for several years and recently "joined" hci. i wanted to see what they were up to and paid the minimum ($15) to get a membership. i also sent the nra another $120. would the founding fathers have approved of encryption so strong that the government could not break it? 
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 i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns (ie waiting periods, background check etc..) in the states of nevada and oregon. thanks. bill anderson (bbs.billand@tsoft.net) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54260">
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 i hate long postings, but this turned out to be rather lengthy.... overall crime rate: it fell....just like that... acquiring weapons in norway: you can buy (almost) all kinds of weapons in norway, but you must have a permit, and a good reason to get the permit.... if i would like to have a handgun, i would have to get an gun-licence from the police and to be a member of a gun-club. the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and/or records of serious mental diseases. now, if a got my licence, i would have to be an active member of the gun -club for 6 months before i could collect my gun. it's a little like getting a drivers licence isn't it ??? you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to... use of guns in crimes (in norway): some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners 'arms' for a long time, but these are rather the exeption. most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes, and mostly short time befor the crime. use of knives: it is allowed to cary knifes in public, but not in your belt or 'open'. you (americans) think it's ok to have a gun, but not to carry it open in public -rigth ?? scandinavians are 'aggressive': we northeners are not as hot-livered as southeners, but when we decide to take action we do. ask any historian or millitary with an knowledge of europe.... (or ask any german who served in norway in ww2.....) individual vs masses: yes the individual is more important than the masses, but only to some extent.... your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses ?? what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others ?? the issue: i believe the issue is guns, and gun-legislation. we shouldn't mix weapons and items that can serve as one.... if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home. but should it have to be like that ?? do you think it's wise to sell guns like candy (some states do...) ?? if you believe it's smart/neccacery to have drivers-licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns ?? disclaim-her: i'm not a pacifist or anti gun. i would defend my home, loved ones and country, but i don't view guns as neccities or toys. i have done army service, and have used a variaty of weapons, but wouldn't want to have one for self defence or because they 'feel good'.... this is not a .signature. it's marly a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet. thomas parsli thomasp@ifi.uio.no 
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 : the issue has never been whether tanks were used in detroit in 1967. it : has been whether they fired their main guns. never? this is incorrect. either you don't read very well or resort to falsehoods in an attempt to make a point. at the risk of boring and belaboring the point, my claim was the chain was regarding the tanks "last used in detroit in 48". the text follows. : you did not merely claim that : tanks were used--you claimed that they fired their main guns to suppress : sniper fire and that they were "quite" effective at this. indeed, when coffman claimed they were only used as apcs, i did say i had been told they did fire their main guns. : you continue to : back away from this claim and defend something else that nobody is : disputing. well, the poster who i responded to did dispute the use of tanks post-48. rude of you to call gary coffman a nobody. : "well, it's not the main gun." gee, that's only the entire point. are you : now going to admit that you were wrong? that was the entire point to *you*. what exactly did i claim? "i've heard eye-witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire. quite effectively." i wasn't wrong . . . i've heard those descriptions. if you're paying attention, i've mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes, but the main gun firing was an account i heard. that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the, to use your words, "bullshit filters". stating that i *claimed* this is a falsehood. what was it i claimed as fact? here's the entire post: we haven't used tanks against the black ghettos since detroit 1948. correction. i know they used tanks in detroit 1968. i saw em, it was well covered in the news at that time. gordon lightfoot mentions it in his song "black day in july". since you don't dispute that and claim that nobody else does, that means i was right. : i will never read of tanks firing their main guns in detroit in the '67 : riots. there is simply no way that such an event could have taken place : without it being common knowledge even 26 years later. the american : military firing shells from tanks in american cities on blacks would have : been *big* news. so one would suppose. some folks think in happened in 48. awesley goes on: you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers. : to fire fragmentary grenades? i doubt that as well. to fire concussion : grenades? perhaps. to fire tear gas? certainly. but you would be : perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags, wouldn't you, since : it makes your other claim seem more plausible. john, again, strawman techniques. do you feel you're losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down? what i read said nothing about what they fired. and so i put nothing in there. if you need some help, let me know and i'l take your side of this for a while. you're not scoring here, you're boring here. : if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit, people would have been : screaming about it for the past two and half decades. i would know about : it. glad to know you're such an expert. nice to hear some an authority. i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge -- if it had happened, you would have know it. since you are such an authority, you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover-up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot. some claimed 100+ dead, others said 300. the offical number is 43 but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was "several". i've also heard some things about that but i won't dare repeat them. you'd assert that i claimed they were truth. : unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up. taking the tour after the riots, it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops. or so i recall from 26 years ago. and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks. so it would have been an army cover-up. another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt, some were in rubble. based on what i remember, i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two. : if your mind is open enough to believe that, well, good for you. i prefer : to live in reality. and here in reality, i find it hard to believe that : those tanks even had any shells, much less fired them. given the level in destruction in detroit, i'm quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns. now then, we've bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you've managed to say is that you don't believe the account i cited. : --john l. scott -- wes 
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 andy@sail.stanford.edu (andy freeman) says: <u28037@uicvm.uic.edu all your points are very well taken and things that i haven't considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns. that's not all that kratz doesn't know. hell, a glock is the last thing that should be switched to. the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it. sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn't too great of a safety. now we know that kratz doesn't understand what a safety is supposed to do. (he also confuses "things he can see" with "things that exist"; glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside.) excuse me but i do know what i safety is supposed to do. it's basic purpose - not to let the gun fire until you're ready. christ, i've known that since i had my first crosman air gun. you don't know me so don't make assumptions about what i know and don't know. i do know that the glock has multiple safties from reports, looking at them at a gun shop, and friends who own one. a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that's what the user wants. with glocks, one says "i want the gun to go off" by pulling the trigger. if the safeties it has make that work, it has a "real" safety, no matter what kratz thinks. from the things i have read/heard glocks are always knocked because of the trigger safety. they are supposedly harder to learn to use properly. every article that i have read can't be wrong about the damn thing. and don't ask me to quote my sources because i don't keep a ton of gun magazines and/or rec.guns articles laying around. boy, you can't make a simple statement on here without someone getting right on your ass. no wonder why there are so many problems in the world. everyone takes everything just a little too seriously. by the way, i'm not going to reply to any of this stuff anymore as someone made the good point that this discussion is getting too close to r.g (and yes i know that i had something to do with that). 
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 : >newspaper ad censorship : >san fran. independent san fran. examiner san jose mercury news : >1201 evans ave 110 5th st. 750 ridder park dr. : >san fran., ca 94124 san fran., ca 94103 san jose, ca 95190 hmmm, the sj merc. carries targemasters west, national shooting club, reeds sportshop, sportsmens supply and big 5 ads. they all sell guns. no they don't have any adds like in shotgun news. if they won't at least run the current adds i swear i'll cancel my subscription and end to cash to the crpa. rob p. 
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 all very true. i'm going on what i have read and heard from friends. basically the glock is great but i have heard/read that it is a lot harder to learn proper handling because of the type of safety that it has. i was looking at a glock .40s&w and the s&w 4006 a couple of weeks ago and the safties on the guns were very different. the saftey on the 4006 seemed a lot more "safe" (for lack of a better word) than the one on the glock. of course this could also be a bad thing if you were to pull the gun on somebody. you would spend more time fiddling around turning the safety off. personally i like the glocks because they are very light and i think they look really cool (guess that's why they use them in so many movies) but i wouldn't get one as my first semi-auto because of the safety. i would prefer more training with a "traditional" semi-auto (ala colt .45) but of course that's just my opinion. at the risk of starting the 'my gun is better than yours' flame war, i must disagree. there is no secret in handling a glock. in fact, it is often chosen (besides its other merits) because it shoots like a revolver does basically. it can limit the training time (read budget $$$) due to the fact there are no 'external' safties other than the trigger, hence less training time required. smith & wesson (among other types) are chosen due to the fact taht they do have the external safties (hammer drop,as well as mag drop) which if properly used have saved many lives when 'mr. bad' snatched the gun from the officer and tried to shoot said officer the gun was on safe and would not fire. this point had been made in many articles in various gun magazines. if fact, one author (can't remember who) staged a little test where he had a revolver and a s&w on safe laying on a table and asked people with little firearms experience to on his signal, grab the gun and shoot a target. he timed the people using each gun. the revolver times were pretty close, but some of the times with the s&w were in minutes, or the person just gave up because they could not figure out the saftey. you don't often see colt 45 autos issued due to the light trigger which can be accidentally fired in a stress situation, opening the issuing city,county, etc.. to lawsuits, bad press, etc.. of course any problem can be overcome with enough training, but such training is not always available to budget crunched departments. i know if i were a cop i would want something like a s&w just for the off chance of the gun getting taken away. the safety doesn't guarantee that 'mr. bad' won't figure it out and shoot me, but it could buy enough time to draw a second gun and shoot 'mr. bad' before it's too late. don't think i am too biassed here just because i have had 3 glocks in my possession at one time, because i have had a .45 as well. in fact, it was my first handgun. remember, the ultimate 'safety' is you the operator, and no safety is going to stop an negligent discharge (note i don't say accidental) if you break the rules of gun handling. as per the part of being light weight and looking cool, i agree 100%. i wouldn't rule it out as a first purchase. -just my $.02 + tax ------- steve syck syck5280@miller.cs.uwm.edu -------- 
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 anyone who worries about his own gun should not have one. if you carry any pistol with a empty chamber and safety the chances of it going off are about zero. unless you sit it on top of a lite stove for a couple of minutes or put it in a fire. :-) | "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" spoken by many a.t. hikers | | kilo delta four zulu papa uniform -kd4zpu 146.82 
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 overall crime rate: it fell....just like that... two questions: when was this, and do you have the relevant numbers. (please note, this is *not* in any way an indication i don't believe you or that you're not correct, but when the drop occured is relevant.) acquiring weapons in norway: you can buy (almost) all kinds of weapons in norway, but you must have a permit, and a good reason to get the permit.... if i would like to have a handgun, i would have to get an gun-licence from the police and to be a member of a gun-club. the primary objection (beyond ones based on the ideal of rkba that it is simply not something the government should do) is that it makes guns a play-thing and tool of the rich and connected. it discriminates against the poor. is self-defense considered appropriate, and if so, under what conditions? (are you allowed, for instance to get a gun for protection if you're going to be carrying a very large sum of money on a regular basis or have been threatened.) the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and/or records of serious mental diseases. this has been suggested in the u.s., and generally supported among gun owners. what many object to is that many, if not most, proposals contain a sort of "gotcha" clause which allows an arbitrary denial, even if you qualify in every way. now, if a got my licence, i would have to be an active member of the gun -club for 6 months before i could collect my gun. it's a little like getting a drivers licence isn't it ??? you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to... at this point, it should be pointed out that in general a driver's licence in the u.s. is for the most part nothing like its european counterpart. i understand getting one is far more difficult there than here. in the u.s. it's a joke. but my usual objection is that you're discussing two different things. for instance, in the u.s. a driver's license is a permit to operate a motor vehicle on a public road. it is not necessary to own one, or to operate it on private property. that is, the ability to require driving permits is generally considered to arise from the government's legitimate power to enact reasonable regulations for behavior on public lands. a permit to own an automobile, for instance, which is far closer an analogy, would be a much harder thing to get past legally, since it wouldn't be based on making regulations on public property, but in restricting activity on private property. use of guns in crimes (in norway): some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners 'arms' for a long time, but these are rather the exeption. most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes, and mostly short time befor the crime. use of knives: it is allowed to cary knifes in public, but not in your belt or 'open'. you (americans) think it's ok to have a gun, but not to carry it open in public -rigth ?? this varies *widely*. (one thing i think europeans have a difficult time with is that the u.s. has fifty unique jurisdictions, where the laws from one state to another can be as radically different as from one country in europe to another). some places allow open carry of both guns and knives. some allow concealed. some prohibit both, or allow one or the other. and it can be either a state or local restriciton. individual vs masses: yes the individual is more important than the masses, but only to some extent.... your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses ?? what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others ?? the question must be asked: is the right of *this* individual affecting the rights of this *other* individual. what we usually get is that the rights of this *group* (meaning some individuals within this group, here defined as "people who own guns,") are adversely affecting the rights of some other group. if for instance, "bob" were using his gun to attack "steve," you'd have a point. but essentially what we're discussing is that becuase some person who qualifies as a member of the group "people who own guns" then some third person, perhaps in another *time zone* is told that their being a member of that group is taking away somebody else's rights. it's like trying to punish all newspapers for the libel commited by one. the issue: i believe the issue is guns, and gun-legislation. the issue is crime, violence, and murder. the question is to what extent guns and gun legislation impact those. we shouldn't mix weapons and items that can serve as one.... if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home. but should it have to be like that ?? of course not. it would be nice if we didn't have to fear that other people might get it into their twisted little minds to hurt us. but currently we don't have that option. nor do i expect we will. do you think it's wise to sell guns like candy (some states do...) ?? no state does. in any case, there's a limit to which the state may enforce it's "wisdom" on me. freedom in general is an unwise concept. if you pre-emptively restrict everything which might be "unwise" then freedom becomes a meaningless concept. if you believe it's smart/neccacery to have drivers-licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns ?? i'll raise my hand against driver's licenses. as currently implemented they're a waste of time and little more than revanue generation for the state and ignored by a startling number of drivers. it does not guarantee a level of skill any higher than is necessary to get your car on the road and get yourself or somebody else killed, or a knowledge of traffic laws beyond what any ten year old will have picked up riding around in his parents car. but, as i mentioned, they're two different things. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. maybe i'm too "religious," but when i see a bill to "establish a right," i wince. keep in mind, what the law giveth, the law can taketh away. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 you know, i was reading 18 u.s.c. 922 and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out. say u.s.c. 922 : (1) except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun. well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a "person" might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution. so, what i don't understand is how a statute like 922 can be enforced on an individual. so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess. just passing a law does not make it law. sorry, but i really can't figure out what you're trying to say, above. everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court. not exactly: "an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed." norton vs. shelby county, 118 us 425 p.442 "the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it." "no on is bound to obey an uncontitutional law, and no courts are bound to enforce it." 16 am jur 2d, sec 177 late 2d, sec 256 so, has it ever gone to court, not just your run of the mill "ok i had it i am guilty, put me in jail" has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn't have that right? automatic weapons? no. the supreme court has never heard such a case. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 how many are aware that the gun control act of 1968 is a verbatim translation of a nazi gun control law passed shortly before the holocaust? for those of you who think i'm being paranoid in asking these questions, pray that you are right. unchecked democracies usually end in dictatorship. remember, germany was a democracy when hitler rose to power. can we be absolutely certain nothing like that could happen today? i can't speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government, one can see the relentless movement toward one world government. the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism, nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues. the fact that we are sapping the economic strength of americans to prop up a former and possibly future enemy is just another. the fact the words like community of nations, global village and international business are in vogue are others. international corporations are destroying our identy and economy and the propaganda they are playing through the media and government is over powering our ability to resist. our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty. the bottome line is that the single most evil aspect of one world government is that you have nowhere to run to and history has proven that would be a disaster. beware the liberal and the conservative and the moderate. think for yourself 
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 if i would like to have a handgun, i would have to get an gun-licence from the police and to be a member of a gun-club. the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and/or records of serious mental diseases. now, if a got my licence, i would have to be an active member of the gun -club for 6 months before i could collect my gun. so, like, what do you do during those six months to be "active?" my town has a similar requirement, and it's rather stupid. before you can buy a handgun, you have to be an active member of a gun club. well, how active can you be without a gun, chief? most gun owners feel a check of criminal records for crimes and mental disorders would be a very good thing -- if it couldn't be abused by the government. but every time this is proposed, there is always some trapdoor by which the government can deny your purchase even if you are perfectly qualified to own a gun. and we oppose this. it's a little like getting a drivers licence isn't it ??? you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to... since the fatal accident rate for licensed automobile drivers in the us is around 50 times the fatal accident rate of largely unlicensed gun owners, i'd think twice before using this analogy. besides, the problem is criminal use of guns, not accidents. (there are about 500,000 criminal uses of guns in the us every year -- but only 1,400 accidents.) i don't think it's necessary to spend a lot of energy making sure a criminal can shoot a gun before he gets one. just like the check, most gun owners feel positively about requiring safety courses -- if they couldn't be abused by the government. but they already have! one state doesn't hold the courses, another doesn't fund them, a third holds them only once a year with limited attendence to those with political connections. is this fair? most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes, and mostly short time befor the crime. and how many of them acquire these guns from legal retail outlets? how many are borrowed, stolen, smuggled, bought on the black market? use of knives: it is allowed to cary knifes in public, but not in your belt or 'open'. you (americans) think it's ok to have a gun, but not to carry it open in public -rigth ?? some states allow only open carry. some allow only concealed carry. some allow both. some allow both, but require licenses for concealed carry. all you can say is if one of these modes has a clear advantage over another in terms of reducing crime or any other public good, then state legislators someplace are doing exactly the wrong thing. which means that they really don't have any objective reasons for these laws other than their preferences -- a bad way to govern. scandinavians are 'aggressive': we northeners are not as hot-livered as southeners, but when we decide to take action we do. ("hot-livered." i love that expression. here, we say "hot-headed.") individual vs masses: yes the individual is more important than the masses, but only to some extent.... your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses ?? what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others ?? typically, the only criminals who can affect the rights of all the other people are criminals in government offices. the rest of our criminals affect the rights of only one or a few people at a time, and they do this during the commission of a crime. possession of a gun by someone hurts no one else. it is when they do something violent with that gun that the crime occurs. of course, it is a crime for a felon or ex-felon to possess a gun, but we don't feel it is right to treat common citizens who have lived good lives as if they were just "pre-felons" waiting to commit crimes. we shouldn't mix weapons and items that can serve as one.... i don't understand this sentence. if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home. but should it have to be like that ?? life isn't fair. i shouldn't need a fire extinguisher either, or flood and theft insurance, or to lock the doors of my house and car. but pining for a better world won't do anything to address what i have to do to live in this one. do you think it's wise to sell guns like candy (some states do...) ?? none of ours, i'm sure. if you believe it's smart/neccacery to have drivers-licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns ?? frankly, i'm not sure i know what good a driver's license does anyone, either. the people who drive safely never use it, and the people who drive drunk, drive without it! however, a car is a good tool, but not one that protects my right to life. i rank the right to life somewhere north of the right to travel freely. i'm not a pacifist or anti gun. i would defend my home, loved ones and country, but i don't view guns as neccities or toys. i have done army service, and have used a variaty of weapons, but wouldn't want to have one for self defence or because they 'feel good'.... the question is not whether or not you want to own guns personally. it's whether or not you think that all people should be forced to do as you do. i don't have any problem with someone who says they would never own a gun. i do have a problem with someone who says i should be prevented from owning one, too. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 [this is a co-authored report from two of us who were there.] gun owners action league, our state rifle association, started the day with a rally in the secluded courtyard behind the statehouse at 9:30. it was looking sparse (about 40 people) until the speaker began, whereupon about 120 more people followed the loudspeakers from wherever they had been lost, and filled out the area something proud. mike yacino of goal spoke. one of his best throwaway lines was to remind us that all of us holders of carry permits there had been checked and certified clear of all crimes by the state; while the people in the statehouse behind us only had to be certified clean of "election fraud" to hold their jobs. nancy snow and amos hamburger were busy handing out id buttons and sheets describing all the bills to be presented at the hearings, and telling people where to find their own representatives (and in too many cases, who they were). mike warned us that the committee was going to suspend its rules and discuss a bill that hadn't made it onto the official list. it seems a delegation of students from simon's rock of bard college (alma mater of wayne lo, who shot up the place with an sks late last year) was being bussed in to testify for a bill to ban all sales of firearms or ammo to anyone who is not a state resident. the hearings were originally scheduled in the (large) gardner auditorium at 10:30, but that had been pre-empted by the governor's hearings on the framingham eight (women in prison for killing abusive husbands, and seeking release). so we had until 1:30 to buttonhole our representatives, after which we would be squashed into an inadequate hearing room. one of my representatives' staffers was somewhat offensively smarmy. he said, "oh, it must be gun hearings day again! the gun lobby is always so organized every year." i got a little pissed, and replied, "i'm not from the gun lobby -- i'm from your district." at 12:30, your second reporter arrived in time to notice a demonstration going on in front of the statehouse (where the pro-gunners weren't). randy price from the tv news was there, in his mirror reflective shades, talking to one of the anti-gun types, and several simon's rock anti-gun "close-the-loophole" protestors. (earlier, randy had covered the goal rally.) the room we had been assigned seated about 50. remember, there were about 160 gun owners there, plus another 20-30 students and teachers from bard. one of us had already reserved a seat; the other never got closer than the atrium outside -- and there was a crowd behind him. a cop took up station at the entrance and prevented the rest of the crowd from coming in. soon after the debate started, a loudspeaker was set up outside in the hall for the benefit of everyone else. everyone who was there (inside and outside) got to sign up on a sheet saying what their position was on which bills. most of us signed up to "support goal's position" on "all bills." first, because of their time constraints, public officials got to testify. and first up was the bill that nobody had seen (the students had some curfew, i guess). currently, massachusetts law allows a non-resident to purchase long guns or ammo from a local dealer provided he complies with the laws of his own state. previously, the law was similar, but applied only to non-residents from states adjoining massachusetts. the simon's rock folks called the current law a "loophole" and wanted it closed. two of their reps spoke about wayne lo and his "sks assault rifle." the second one, hodgekiss, a co-sponsor, had done his homework so well that he kept confusing montana (wayne lo's home state) with missouri, and became belligerent when about five gun owners in the gallery corrected him after his second muff. carr, from gloucester, claimed that the new bill would put the law back the way it was, but he was lying: the new bill allows purchases by non-residents of adjoining states only if they have licensing in their own state "as strong as" that in massachusetts. since none of them do, that's that. some of the things these two said were really offensive. "in some of these other states, anyone can buy a gun as long as he's breathing!" (oooooo!) "we have some very, very good gun laws in massachusetts; if only the other states would adopt the same type of laws, we wouldn't be having this situation -- but they won't." (naughty, naughty!) next up was boston city councilman albert "dapper" o'neill. he was there to testify pro-gun, but in some ways he was a liability. he's reasonably elderly and tends to wander and repeat himself, plus he's almost a caricature of a law-n-order politician. he badmouthed the aclu, said violent criminals should be executed, and that if he were judge, he'd give arrestees their "last rights" (pun intended) on the spot (at which many of the gun owners applauded, which bothered me.) he said that all the proposed gun restrictions were a step in the right direction -- for the criminals. he said this four times :-( two of the bills under consideration would allow police to rescind a ccw or fid, and confiscate all your guns, if someone had filed a restraining order against you. (note that the filing of a restraining order requires no warrant, no hearing, no evidence, and no conviction -- just an accusation.) senator barrett of reading testified in favor of it, and patronized the pro-gunners there several times by saying, "i'm sure all the gun owners here will agree with me that we have to get these weapons out of the hands of people that our courts have convicted." i haven't seen such a disgustingly disingenuous performance since nixon whined that he wasn't a crook. barrett also spoke in favor of the bill making the fid card renewable every five years, instead of permanent as it is now. the stated purpose is to remove fid cards from those who have become ineligible. "revenue has nothing to do with it." (yeah, right.) apparently, some congressmen think we're stupid enough to swallow the argument that it's preferable to process 1.6 million renewals every cycle in the vague hope of catching a recent felon than to simply take the goddamn card away from a criminal at conviction time. as usual, hassle the law-abiding instead of the crook. the two co-chairs of the committee were rep. caron and sen. jujuga. jujuga didn't say much (he was a co-sponsor of both "restraining order" bills) but caron struck me as a sharp guy that wouldn't let any bad logic or lies on the part of either side to go unchallenged. (he was a co-sponsor of one of the "restraining order" bills as well.) one of the younger reps on the committee (forgot his name) was vociferously pro-gun, somewhat embarrassingly so. his heart was in the right place, but his arguments seemed to be confined to, "every year it's the same damn thing, you come in here with this crap..." it's nice to have a friend on the committee, but he could have been more effective. at about 3:00, it was clear that the hall-jam couldn't continue. someone came out of another meeting hall and yelled at the cop because the loudspeaker was disturbing their meeting, so the loudspeaker was disconnected. so they found a bigger hall upstairs. one of us had to leave to catch his charter bus, and so missed the "public" testimony; the other got a seat this time. caron began by talking about how he got his fid 16 years ago, left the state, and then returned without notifying them of his address change. he complained that the state record system was not up-to-date and that his pd back in his city of birth still thought he lived there. great quote: "if you purchase a gun today, it will not get into the state computer system until 1999." (this was also an argument he used against the renewable fid card.) testimony was heard from several "battered women," one of whom had been attacked by some guy in his 20's who had an fid card because he got it when he was 15 or thereabouts. they used a lot of emotion and said how they were scared of these men. a staffer of attorney general harshbarger testified in favor of this anti-gun bill, saying how 50,000 restraining orders were granted last year, and how these women needed to be protected. caron noted that a restraining order was granted for 10 days, and then a hearing was held to determine whether the order would be extended to a year. he asked whether she would be satisfied if the fid were revoked at the time of this hearing rather than after the initial issuance of the fid. she gave some long rambling circumlocution in response. then testimony against the bill was heard. mike yacino (who looks something like einstein) got up and made the point that restraining orders were issued on too little evidence, that judges like to issue restraining orders just to let things cool off no matter who they think is right (man or woman), and that the hearings for restraining orders are lightning sessions with little time to consider facts. atty. karen mcnutt spoke with him a few times during his testimony. other pro-gunners got up to testify. one said he had had to file a restraining order against a tenant to clear her out, and that she countered by filing one against him! he noted that this would have allowed the state to confiscate his guns if the new bill became law. one of the junior reps noted that "this is america" and we have to be certain that individual rights are respected. senator jujuga reiterated this, saying that "people who abuse smaller people can go to hell as far as i care, but we have to be careful about equating conviction with a restraining order." (point and match, senator.) another pro-gunner got up and testified that he didn't know his citizenship "expired every 5 years," and that a driver's license was a privilege, not a right like the right to keep and bear arms. a third got up and said the problem was with the criminal justice system, and argued in favor of a death penalty bill and public hangings. senator jujuga said he had himself tried to get a death penalty bill passed, and joking responded that he, too, favored public hangings. the speaker then responded, "i'll make you a deal. you get me the rope, and i'll tie the noose." next came public testimony on the simon's rock bill. a teacher testified that she had been the teacher of wayne lo, and that "he wouldn't have been able to shoot people inside a building while he was outside" without his evil gun. she said that the "loophole" should be closed to prevent something like this from "ever happening again". four or five other kids testified in favor of this bill, one of spilling tears for the good legislators. one of the students actually shot by wayne lo was also there. many of them had t shirts on, saying, "as long as one person can buy a gun in anger, none of us are safe -- support gun control." the committee was reluctant to grill or correct the kids, except for caron, who corrected one student who had claimed that anyone could apply for an fid. "only residents can get fid's," he said. (how much do you want to bet that this kid had no idea he had been conned into testifying for a bill that would cut out-of-staters completely off?) yacino and mcnutt spoke again, this time noting that the bill as written would affect both ammo and all guns possessed by out-of-staters. karen also noted that hunters in ct, nh, and vt could be put away for a year if they wandered across the ma boundary somewhere in the woods and got challenged by game wardens. yacino underscored the fact that lo could have gotten an fid as a resident student -- and, hell, even an ccw, as he had no criminal or mental one junior rep was upset that it would take ma residents longer to buy a gun than out-of-staters, and thought it was "elitist". another (caron?) said that we need the protection of preventing non-residents from buying without an fid because only two other states in the union had "fid-type" cards, so complying with all the laws of one's home state was "not enough." one pro-gun speaker replied that this resembled a mother watching her son in a marching band and exclaiming, "everyone's out of step but johnny!" all the bard college people were filing out as the pro-gun testimony for this bill was made, and thus only pro-gunners were around when the other bills came under consideration. the main bills remaining (and goal's position) were: o h.4375 and four others: notify police chiefs so they can pull licenses when a holder is convicted (strongly supported) o h.1732: require trigger locks on all handguns sold (opposed) o h.962: require trigger locks on all loaded firearms (strongly opposed) o h.1350: allow every municipality to enact their own gun laws (opposed) o h.1731: fund bullet-proof vests for municipal police (supported) o s.1097: state constitutional amendment for the rkba (supported) o several on police discretion in the issuance of fid cards (opposed) o several altering non-resident license conditions (supported) o h.1135: ban damn near all guns everywhere in the state (guess!) some of these took only 30 seconds to consider, as the remaining pro-gunners raised hands in unison either for or against them. mike yacino noted that, besides the danger in screwing with a trigger lock on a loaded gun, that bill would make it illegal for a licensee to carry his concealed handgun unless it were locked. caron blew right through h.1350 when he saw that we opposed it. again, he brought up the state's archaic records capability and said, "this would create hundreds of different licensing systems." the session ran late -- since it was the last scheduled hearing, it could not be adjourned until everyone who wanted to had testified. it ended at about 6:30. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. maybe i'm too "religious," but when i see a bill to "establish a right," i wince. keep in mind, what the law giveth, the law can taketh away. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... i don't think your objection is beyond the bounds of rationality. the right mentioned in the bill is already established under the second amendment; the bill should be reworded to reaffirm the second amendment rkba, and then establish the procedures for redress through the federal court system. the right already exists and is already embodied in our constitution. arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 the idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but i'm curious to know, do they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid? this, at least, has already been determined: the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system. to get emergency medical care, anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card. before entering a hospital, you must notify blue cross, or they will refuse to pay your bills. in an emergency, where you must be treated before notifying them, you must inform them within 24 hours or (if you are unable to do so for medical reasons) the hospital must. failing to do so within 24 hours means they will not cover the hospitalization. in you need your card to notify them (and without the card, the hospital certainly wouldn't know they had to.) therefore, you are required to carry the card at all times, or do without emergency medical coverage. frank crary cu boulder 
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 } a note on the lighter side, i've noticed most gun-banners (some of my } friends included) are the one who make comments that indicate they are } more likely to resort to violent. so are they really banning guns so they } wouldn't end up shooting someone else? could be. it is also likely that since they feel they are more likely to resort to violence, they have a hard time believing that anyone else would react david olson dlo@drutx.att.com "well, i did say we'll put it out and we'll put it out when we can. but i don't know what we can put out or when we can put it out." -- george stephanopolous. 
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 i don't know what traders is claiming, but it appears to me that the oakland tribune has censored gun ads in the past. likewise for the san francisco chronicle, and i have never seen a gun ad in the san francisco examiner. specifically, about a year ago on thursdays, when traders placed its ads, the chron. ad would not have any graphics representing any handgun sale, though text could list it. the trib. would run a graphic of a handgun. the examiner would not have a traders ad at all. over the past year while oakland politicians have made a lot of noise about measures to fight crime the trib stopped taking the traders ad, then started publishing it, but without any handgun graphic, then stopped, then started. since the trib. was sold some months ago it has not had the traders ad. during one of these non-ad interludes a traders employee told me that the trib. had refused to take their yes, the usual chron. thursday ad was there today, with graphics representing rifles, safes, etc. as usual. joan v 
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 dennis deconcini, 1982 ...in these and similar areas, the bureau has violated not only the dictates of common sense, but of 5 u.s.c. sec 552, which was intended to prevent "secret lawmaking" by administrative bodies. these practices, amply documented in hearings before this sub- committee, leave little doubt that the bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the constitution and laws of the united it has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law-abiding citizens. it has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably search- ing and seizing private property. it has ignored the fifth amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens with- out regard for their right to due process of law. the rebuttal presented to the subcommittee by the bureau was utterly unconvincing. richard davis, speaking on behalf of the treasury department, asserted vaguely that the bureau's priorities were aimed at prosecuting willful violators, particularly felons ille- gally in possession, and at confiscating only guns actually likely to be used in crime. he also asserted that the bureau has recently made great strides toward achieving these priorities. no documen- tation was offered for either of these assertions. in hearings before batf's appropriations subcommittee, however, expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of batf gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into unknowning technical violations. ( exerpt from: 97th congress; 2d session committee print t h e r i g h t t o k e e p a n d b e a r a r m s of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate ninety-seventh congress second session february, 1982 printed for the use of the committee on the judiciary u.s. government printing office 88-618 o washington : 1982 letter to constituent: april 1993 thank you for contacting me regarding the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms (atf), which is the federal law enforcement agency with jurisdiction over firearms violations and regulations. it has been my experience as chairman of the appropriations subcommittee on treasury, postal service and general government which funds atf, that atf is one of the most competent and highly professional law enforcement agencies in the federal government. the agents of atf have proven their value again and again in successful, legal operations to curb the unlawful possession and use of firearms, especially in the area of drug-related crimes. it enforces the armed career criminal act which calls for mandatory minimum sentences for repeat felons using firearms to carry out an illegal activity. the bureau has made itself a key component in preventing gang related violence, also, both by educating at-risk youth to the dangers of gang membership as well a s by depriving known gangs from access to weapons. the waco, texas case involved the execution of search warrants by atf on the branch davidians for illegal firearms and explosives possession (automatics, semi-automatics, and machine-guns, in addition to bombs and other explosives.) in virtually every gun case, atf is asked to trace weapons through its' national firearms tracing center, where they keep all dealer and federal firearms license information. atf is the federal governments' firearms expert and routinely works with state and local police to execute warrants. atf, working with state and local law enforcement in texas and the u.s. attorneys' office felt it was necessary to execute these warrants in order to legally establish that a crime had been committed and conclude a long and thorough investigation of illegal gun and explosives held by members of the branch davidians. in addition, atf carefully selected a sunday morning, knowing from their source, inside, that the men would be separated from the women and children and not in the area where it was known that the illegal weapons were stored. as you may be aware by now, vernon howell a.k.a. david koresh spiritual leader of the branch davidians was tipped of the impending execution of the search warrants. unfortunately, atf lost the element of surprise and the cult was able to arm themselves and prepare for atfs' entry into the compound. once a hostage situation presented itself, the atf asked the fbi to become involved since the fbi is skilled in hostage negotiations. in addition, and military tanks were brought in due to the serious nature of the situation and firepower of the branch davidians. based on what i have learned about atf's role in the branch davidian raid, i believe the agency acted responsibly. i am, however, deeply saddened by the loss of lives of the 4 law enforcement agents who attempted to enter the compound and the civilian members of the cult. i fully expect the department of treasury to conduct a thorough evaluation with representatives from law enforcement outside the department to be headed by the assistant secretary for enforcement. in addition, atf will conduct its' own review of the waco operation. i look forward to reviewing the findings of the evaluators and hope this situation in waco will be brought to a quick and peaceful conclusion. dennis deconcini subcommittee on treasury, postal service and general government april 7, 1993 larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 fellow texans and members of crime strike in texas crime strike in texas has a loosely knit coalition with most victims rights groups in texas. we ask that you write a letter protesting the release of the following murderer. this letter should be written to : raven kazen - victims services board of pardons and paroles p.o. box 13401 - capital station austin, texas 78711 the letter should be written if at all possible on red paper as that was agreed on at one of our first meetings . it represents the coalition and all of its parts as well as the heart ache of those left behind and the blood spilled by these criminals. the letter should have only one name on it so it can be filed in the folder of that criminal waiting for his next try at parole. list of criminals: today we have only one parole to protest , on october 4, 1990, mark steven hughes rendered numerous blows to the head of james allen pompa . ten month old james went into a coma and died two days later. on july 8, 1992, mark steven hughes pled guilty to injury to a child and received a ten-year sentence. according to texas law, mark became eligible for parole on january 4, 1992 -- six months before he was even sentenced! would you join us in strongly protesting the release from prison of mark steven hughes, who beat a baby to death . mark steven hughes - beat to death the baby boy of russel pompa -- reference mark steven hughes - tdc# 633546 mark your envelope "protest letter" on the front and back. a typical letter is indicated on the next page --- thank you very much. irvin wilson - volunteer crime strike texas raven kazen - victims services board of pardons and paroles p.o. box 13401 - capital station austin , texas 78711 i protest the parole of mark steven hughes tdc#633546, who, murdered james son of russel pompa. he should be kept in prison for his full sentence and not be released at any time prior to his full sentence for any irvin wilson houston, texas larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that duke was leading he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy. so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting 
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 do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self-inflicted gun- shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters? there are roughly 1200 fatal, firearms-related accidents each year. the large majority involve rifles and shotgun; there are under 500 fatal handgun accidents each year. i really doubt all of those occur while the pistol is holstered, so the number of "self-inflicted gunshot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters" is probably well under 250 per year. i'm neither a doctor nor a firearms tech expert, but it would seem that given the way a holstered gun points, accidental injuries inflicted that way would be among the least lethal. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54290">
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 the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms. clearly and unequivocally, without infringement. unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state. if last part of it is taken along, it follows what you have said. the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment. the second amendment is: a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security ^^^^^^^ militia of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear ^^^^^ state arms, shall not be infringed. ^^^^ arms you didn't even get the capitalization correct! try reading usca on the constitution, or get any other correct version of the this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me. according to the federalist paper's, a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations. perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers!! james madison, federalist paper 46: "besides the advantage of being armed, which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." james madison, i annals of congress 434, 8 june 1789: "the right of the people to keep and bear... arms shall not be infringed. a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." alexander hamilton, federalist paper 29 (on the organization of the militia): "little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year." alexander hamilton, federalist paper 29 (speaking of standing armies): "... if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens." but *surely* hamilton and madison didn't mean the people when they said "people", right? that's why the amendment refers to "the right of the militia"?... ;-) your average 17-45 year old male does not fall into the definition. you're right, the militia consists of all able bodied males (and probably females under current interpretation). therefore most members of the militia, the one the every gun advocate refers to, are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to "well organized", it says "well regulated". i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how _well regulated_ i am. mentioned in the amendment. if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms, why did it specificly mention a "well organized militia" in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms? correct. that's why the right is reserved to the people. and that was to insure the people could form a "well regulated militia", not a "well organized militia". it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part. if so, why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument? any moron can set h_bar = c = 1... instead of a separate sentence? oh, i see what your question is; why don't you read the federalist papers?! james madison, federalist paper 41 (regarding the "general welfare" clause): "nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars." but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the 2nd? he only wrote it. the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state. the federalist paper's mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state. all these examples are actions of a very organized force, not some john q. public with a gun. that's obviously because you've never actually *read* the federalist all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people's right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed. that is people have the right to join a well organized militia. this well organized militia will, of course, provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics. these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms. can't read, huh? show me where the document says "well organized militia". lastly, reading through the federalist paper's on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias. one reason stated is the protection from a standing army. these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every 17-45 year old male and female not in the armied forces. that is *exactly* why every person should be allowed to own *any* weapon currently in use in the armed forces. reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army. well, the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us. but the major reason is to protect against that very same army. it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment, to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary, is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age. maybe its time to re-think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately. abraham lincoln, first inaugural address, march 4, 1861: "this country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." rep. elbridge gerry of massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the second amendment, i annals of congress at 750, 17 august 1789: "what, sir, is the use of a militia? it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ... whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." so now we know which category mr. rutledge is in; he means to destroy our liberties and rights. charles scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu dept of physics, michigan tech, houghton, mi 49931 "...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." thomas jefferson, 1821 
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 the idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but i'm curious to know, do they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid? this, at least, has already been determined: the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system. to get emergency medical care, anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card. before entering a hospital, you must notify blue cross, or they will refuse to pay your bills. in an emergency, where you must be treated before notifying them, you must inform them within 24 hours or (if you are unable to do so for medical reasons) the hospital must. failing to do so within 24 hours means they will not cover the hospitalization. in you need your card to notify them (and without the card, the hospital certainly wouldn't know they had to.) therefore, you are required to carry the card at all times, or do without emergency medical coverage. frank crary cu boulder which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on the head and your wallet, with your insurance card, is stolen. this happened to me, and it took six months to sort the mess out. these sorts of plans sound nice at first, but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve. tom the non hacker tsmith@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu the return address is set wrong, send personal response to the above address. 
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 true, congress has said that possesion of an unlicensed automatic weapon is a violation of the law. congress did not, however, say that such possesion was a capital offense or a transgression worth getting four good government agents killed and 16 others wounded. even if it were a capital offense, the warrant was not even an arrest warrant, but a search warrant. in other words, there was no evidence of illegal arms, just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to search for illegal evidence. question: as in the rodney king case, will the us doj institute criminal civil rights proceedings against the batf? or at least an investigation? ok, sorry i asked. 
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 am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing? or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug, and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order? who will be given the official title of "thought police", i wonder...? and if clinton and friends have their way, (highly likely at this point) the new order government will also have all the guns... so what if "1984" is going to be ten years late... i think we are going to discover that we will be paying dearly for putting this fellow in office for decades to come. even some die-hard supporters are having serious doubts about their savior. ahem. see the war on drugs, as sponsored by the bush and reagan administrations. the precedent had well been set for federal agencies to step on more than a few of what people consider "rights." i won't make excuses for anyone, but most of the damage had been done before clinton even entered the race in '92. 
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 a few comments on the atf's botched handling of this case: 1. attempting to storm the compound in broad daylight? the explanation we were given (at least at one point) was that they thought the cult members would be at religious services. my only comment on this bit of idiocy is that if you're going to operate as a quasi-military unit, you'd better understand basic military tactics. one cardinal rule is that only a fool plans an operation where if one assumption is incorrect, the operation will fail disastrously. 2. we were told that atf got four agents killed because they were outgunned, they didn't expect such heavy resistance. when questioned about why such an overwhelming military-style assault was planned, we were told that it was because the cultists were thought to be heavily armed. can you say contradictory? i knew you could! 3. the batf has had a bad reputation for years as a bunch of arrogant, hotdoggers. i was talking to relatives a couple of weeks ago and referred to them as a bunch of crockett and tubbs wannabes. i'm more than ever convinced that's right on target. an anecdote not related to the waco fiasco is that apparently the batf screwed up some of the evidence in the world trade center bombing. there's now an excellent chance some of the forensic evidence gathered by the fbi will not be admissible in court. this is not hearsay. i was told this by a relative of my wife's who happens to be an fbi agent. his opinion of the batf was, ummm, well, let's just say 4. i have *still* not been presented with one iota of evidence that the bd's had *any* of the alleged illegal weaponry which was the reason for the raid in the first place. btw, we're *still* hearing this justification. ag reno, on cnn yesterday, made references to this issue, without any substantiation. she also waved around the "he's a child abuser and we heard he was beating the children!" flag. sigh. 5. a point re the feds in general: their handling of the whole siege reflected a complete lack of understanding of the probable thought processes of the cultists. ag reno said they pushed the button because they were afraid a mass suicide was in the offing. my only comment on that is that if the cultists were that close to the edge, what the hell did she think their reaction would be to an hours-long assault on the compound where holes were punched in the walls and cs gas pumped in? if i were a bd, i'd expect the forces of the godless government to assault me at any time. in that light, whether they torched themselves or drank jim jones kool-aid is irrelevant. also, look at how the siege was conducted: bright lights, loud rock music, cutting off communications and other contact with the outside. all measures designed to make the bd's feel more and more isolated and threatened. this might have been a great strategy - if they were dealing with criminals. as it was, it looks to me like everything they did fed into koresh's paranoid delusions. #include <std_disclaimer.h> dan s. 
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 |> mr. roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard. humans died |> yesterday, humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions |> they did. that is the undeniable truth. ...the question is: for how long? even if the fbi had done nothing, i guess the bds would have committed suicide, but maybe not until hunger and thirst gave them the choice between sucide or surrender. the bds was warned in beforehand about the fbi action. they had the chance to surrender and get a fair trial. no matter who started the fire, the bds were responsible for 80+ peole dying. no one else. paal ellingsen | borgensvingen 67/102 | tlf.: 083 50933 paale@stud.cs.uit.no | 9100 kvaloeysletta | data = dobbelt arbeid til alle 
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 ...and i'm sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation-state. imagine, the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year! times change, technology changes, viable forms of social organization change. while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one, it's a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide. it's much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are your response is yet another sign of the trend towards one world government. many people such as yourself, who are otherwise probably likeable and intelligent, show every sign of having been successfully brainwashed. you don't recognize that your "inevitable tide" is rolling into chaos and in no way represents an advance for civilization. some of us do indeed "lament the passing of old forms", such as the bill of rights, which are indeed inalienable rights of man that cannot be changed, transferred or surrendered...rights of man that far transcend yes, napoleon wanted a grand new order. hitler wanted a thousand year reich. lenin knew that bolshevism would give us the universal new man. the new world order is just so much of the same old tired garbage. the pathetic part is that so many americans seem "put not your trust in princes" is the biblical proverb. the modern analog is governments. at the time of the founding of the us, the idea that citizens had rights above those of the government was not that common, but was explicit in the writings of the founders. to a considerable extent, englishmen also had those rights. yes, times change, and technology changes. the possibility of a few governments enserfing all of mankind was not possible until quite recently. in the feudal system, the lord was almost as restricted as the serfs, so having the people enserf themselves does not make anything better; most feudal lords, and even most slaveowners, did not mistreat those under them. freedom of speech and freedom of religion are under real attack now. herman rubin, dept. of statistics, purdue univ., west lafayette in47907-1399 phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (internet, bitnet) {purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(uucp) 
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 well they had over 40 days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved. instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas. this is about the third person who's parroted the fbi's line about the fires being set "six hours after the tear gas was injected." suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas-injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire? do tell. 
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 april 19, 1993 as william o. douglas noted, "if a powerful sponsor is lacking, individual liberty withers -- in spite of glowing opinions and resounding constitutional phrases." the legislative scorecard outlined below resulted from subcommittee, committee, and floor action. many important victories, however, come from coordinating with legislators to ensure anti-gun/anti-hunting legislation is either amended favorably, rejected, or never voted. these quiet victories are no less impressive in protecting our fundamental civil liberties guaranteed by the second amendment to the u.s. constitution. arizona - sb 1233, nra-supported legislation concerning minors in criminal possession of firearms passed the house 36-18, is currently awaiting action by the governor. arkansas - hb 1447, firearms preemption legislation was signed by the governor making this the forty-first state to pass preemption. preemption had passed twice in previous sessions only to be vetoed by then gov. bill clinton. hb 1417, mandatory storage of firearms, amended and then killed in committee. colorado - sb 42, mandating the storage of firearms with a trigger-lock, killed in committee. sb 104, prohibiting the sale of certain semi-auto firearms was killed in committee. sb 108, so-called colorado handgun violence prevention act, including a provision for a 10-day waiting period, killed in committee. connecticut - substitute bill no. 6372, imposing a 6% tax on all firearms, ammunition, and archery equipment killed in environment florida - a bill to require a 3-year license at a cost of $150 to own or possess semi-automatic firearms with a second degree felony provision (15 years in prison) died in committee along with numerous other anti-gun owner bills. no anti-gun legislation passed in florida this year. georgia - sb 12, supposed instant check with provision allowing for up to a 7-day "waiting period," defeated in house public safety committee and sent to interim study committee. mandatory storage bill -- sb 247 -- was defeated 39-15 in the senate. the same bill passed the upper-house 52-2 in 1992. illinois - hb 90, prohibiting the sale, possession, manufacture, purchase, possession, or carrying of certain semi-auto firearms, was defeated in house judiciary ii subcommittee on firearms. hb 91, mandatory storage legislation, failed in house judiciary subcommittee on firearms. hb 1550, repeals foid and makes ftip, point of sale check permanent, passed out of judiciary committee by a 10-4-2 vote. presently on the calendar for third reading in the house. sb 40, mandatory storage bill, defeated in committee. sb 265, imposing a handgun excise tax, failed in senate committee on revenue's subcommittee on tax increases. sb 272,imposing a tax on all persons engaged in the business of selling firearms, failed in senate revenue committee's subcommittee on tax increases. indiana - sb 241, statewide firearms preemption, passed in the senate 34-16, and in the house 77-22. twelve amendments were introduced on the house floor to sb 241. among these amendments were a ban on certain semi-auto firearms, mandatory storage, trigger-lock, a ban on "saturday night specials" (similar to 1988 maryland bill), and handgun rationing (one handgun per month). all were defeated. [i read this morning (4/20) s.b. 241 was defeated -- lvc] kansas - hb 2435, providing for a 72-hour waiting period on all firearms was defeated in committee. hb 2458, presently on the governor's desk, hb 2459 and sb 243 and 266 all relating to victims' rights, are expected to be enacted into law. maine - funding for the department of fish and wildlife 1993-94 budget, was restored following severe reductions in the governor's proposed budget. ld 612, an anti-hunting bill which included reverse posting and 1000 yard safety zones, killed in committee. maryland - sb 6-(firearms incendiary ammunition) died in committee on a 8-3 vote, sb 41 (reckless endangerment - firearms - sale or transfer) died in committee on a 11-0 vote, sb 126 (gun control - "assault weapons") died in committee on 9-2 vote, sb 182 (weapons -free school zone) was withdrawn, sb 185 (weapons on school property- driver's license suspension was withdrawn, sb 265 ("assault pistols" - sale, purchase or transport) died in committee on 8-3 vote, sb 328 ("assault pistols" act of 1993) died in committee on a 8-3 vote, sb 682 (baltimore city-firearms-rifles and shotguns) died in committee on a 9-2 vote. hb 274 (pistol and revolver dealers licenses - compliance with zoning laws) was withdrawn, hb 366 (regulated firearms-sales and transfer) died on the senate floor, hb 374 (handguns and "assault weapons" - advertising for sale or transfer) died in committee, hb 384 (handguns and "assault weapons" - exhibitors) died in committee, hb 495 ("assault pistols" act of 1993) died in committee on a 14-9 vote, hb 496 (gun shows-sale, trade, or transfer of regulated firearms) died in committee on a 19-6 vote, hb 601 (firearms - handguns - "assault pistols" - handgun roster board) was withdrawn, hb 683 (rifles and shotguns - registration) was withdrawn, hb 945 (pistols and revolvers - private sales or transfers- required notice) died in committee, and hb 1128 prince georges county - weapons - free school zone) was withdrawn. mississippi - hb 141, closing a loophole allowing felons to possess firearms, passed both houses and signed by the governor. the bill codifies into law mechanism for certain felons to have their second amendment liberties reinstated. nebraska - lb 83 and lb 225, mandatory trigger-lock bills, killed in new hampshire - h.b. 363, providing for reciprocity for concealed carry licenses passed. h.b. 671, increasing the term of a license to carry loaded handguns passed. new mexico - sb 762, imposing a 7-day "waiting period," defeated in senate committee (0-5) and then on floor of the senate (15-24). hb 182, mandatory storage legislation, was killed by a vote of 1-8 in committee. hb 230, legislation safeguarding sportsmen in the field from harassment by animal rights extremists, signed into law by the governor on march 30. new york - seven-day waiting period was defeated in the city of buffalo. ban on certain semi-autos was defeated in monroe county. the tax and fee bills to be imposed on guns and ammo were not included in the 1993-94 budget. sb 207, making pistol licenses provides for validity of pistol license throughout the state, passed senate. currently awaiting action in assembly committee. north dakota - hb 1484, granting victims compensation in certain circumstances, was signed into law by the governor on april 8. oregon - sb 334, banning firearms on school grounds and in court buildings, withdrawn as a result of gun owners opposition. rhode island - hb 5273, mandatory firearms storage legislation, defeated in committee by a vote of 8-5. hb 6347, an act prohibiting aliens from owning firearm; defeated by unanimous vote in committee. hb 5650, excepting nra instructors from the firearms safety requirement, reported favorably. hb 5781, exempting persons with an attorney general's permit from the 7-day waiting period, reported to the floor by a vote of 11-1. hb 6917, extending the term of a permit to carry from two years to three years, reported to the floor unanimously. utah hb 290, reforming the state's concealed carry statute, passed out of house committee. sb 32, creating civil liability for so-called negligent storage of a firearm, and sb 33 creating the offense of "reckless endangerment" with a firearm, killed on senate virginia: s.b. 336, and s.b. 803, requiring proof of state residence to obtain virginia driver's license passed. s.b. 804, which increases the penalty and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence for "straw man" purchases of multiple firearms passed. s.b. 858, allowing possession of "sawed-off" rifles and shotguns in compliance with federal law passed. s.b. 1054, making it a felony for first offense of carrying a concealed firearm without a license (which the nra opposes until law-abiding citizens can acquire a concealed carry license for self-defense), was defeated. h.b. 1900, increasing the penalty for use of a firearm in committing a felony was passed. h.b. 2076, requiring proof of residence to obtain a driver's license passed. h.b. 2272, providing for a referendum on the imposition of a statewide three- day "waiting period" in handgun purchases was washington: sb 5160, calling for waiting periods and licensing for all semi-automatic firearms, died in committee. west virginia - s.c.r. 18, which calls for a study to control transfers of handguns and "assault weapons" was defeated in the senate 24-10. wisconsin - in a referendum up against all odds, the determined efforts of the madison area citizens against crime paid off on april 6 when a nonbinding referendum banning the possession of handguns in madison, wisconsin, was defeated. despite opposition to the ban -- aired largely by firearms owners at a series of public meetings on the issue -- the common council voted on february 17 to place the referendum on the ballot, allowing only seven weeks of campaigning to reverse public opinion on the controversial issue. an october 1992 poll conducted by the wisconsin state journal found 57% in support and 38% opposed, with 5% expressing no opinion. by election day, of the more than 56,000 voters who went to the polls, 51% cast ballots in opposition to the proposal while 49% voted to have the madison common council enact such a ban. the campaign committee, spearheaded by the wisconsin pro-gun movement and nra-ila, relied on neighborhood canvassing, direct mail and radio/tv advertising to educate voters on the civil liberties implications raised by enforcement of the ban if the referendum was approved. despite the surprising defeat, it is expected that the madison initiative's chief proponent, mayor paul soglin, will attempt to have the common council enact an ordinance banning handguns. downloaded from gun-talk (703-719-6406) a service of the national rifle association institute for legislative action washington, dc 20036 larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 the dismissal or resignation of lloyd bensen, secretary of the treasury, in case you haven't sent it yet, it's "bentsen", not "bensen". 
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 now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco, who is next? the mormons or jews? the koreshians rubbed themselves out. neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene, so i'm not particularly concerned. (or shall we blame jim jones on the government also?) i believe we still remember masada, where jews killed themselves rather than being captured by the romans. while i do not agree with the davidians, i must admire their willingness to die for what they believed, which jews have had to do often. herman rubin, dept. of statistics, purdue univ., west lafayette in47907-1399 phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (internet, bitnet) {purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(uucp) 
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 well they had over 40 days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved. instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas. this is about the third person who's parroted the fbi's line about the fires being set "six hours after the tear gas was injected." suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas-injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire? i've already corrected my mistake earlier in this thread. i saw a brief news report which led to the above inaccuracy. i have since seen detailed summaries that show the tanks returned in the late morning. so, why didn't the bd's leave when the gas was first introduced much earlier in the morning? didn't they care about the children? why didn't they release the children weeks ago? do tell. 
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 no not, unconditional, but "shall not be infringed". infringed is defined as: to break or ignore the terms of or obligations (an oath, an agreement, law, or the like); to disreguard; violate. to go beyond the boundaries or limits; tresspass; encroach. this definition implies the following of some form of existing agreement. laws and agreements are made in advance. the rights guaranteed by the constitution were considered to be pre-existing. the only agreement was that they exist. therefore, no law grants such rights. laws can only guarantee, protect, or infringe such rights. websters third new international dictionary of the english language, unabridged 1986 1.a. to break down:destroy b. defeat, frustrate c. confute, refute d. impair, weaken 2. to commit a breach of : neglect to fulfill or obey : violate, vi : encroach, trespass 1. the act of infringing : breach, violation, nonfulfillment 2. an encroachment or trespass on a right or priveledge : trespass now, by what stretch of the imagination do you get your ideas about infringement of rights? [standard disclaimer] 
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 i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors, but here goes: monday, 19 april, 1993 13:30 edt murder most foul!! this is murder! atf murderers! butchers!! this is genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people, including children! well, chalk one up for driving away sympathies by looking like a paranoid lunatic. i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. i repeat, as of this time there are **no survivors**! last i heard there were nine. apparently as of this point they've found no bodies, except those killed during the initial assault a couple of months ago. be cute if koresh hit the trail. maybe he was bodily assumed into heaven. wouldn't that just make ag reno's day? david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed\ when you pushed me down the elevator shaft\ ... sometimes i get to thinking you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" yankovic. 
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 does anyone have any idea about the size of waco? i'm just curious because if it were a small town that may have something to do with it. possibly not. it sure didn't take it very long to burn down though. i was watching abc and it only took like a little over 30 minutes to burn down. waco is a city of about 100,000 people. the population temporarily raised to about 102,000 people when all the feds, and state police officers i tell you what, i stayed in a hotel room about 4 miles from the bd compound around 3 weeks ago. i have never felt more paranoid in my whole life. there were at least 100 state police in the hotel. the claim "we had the water turned off, so the fire engines had to bring their own" doesn't hold up: if they had cut off the water, they surely could have turned it back on just as quickly. they just didn't want to: there were some scores to settle. message to anybody else is very clear: "don't fuck with us. we will do you in..." not that i am one to believe that everything that the government tells us is true but if that was the message they wanted to send why did they wait 51 days? i think the message would be better sent by charging in there right away - not waiting for 51 days and pounding them with sound, etc. a bunch of dead bd members are not going to be so able to tell their side of the story, so now all we have is the story according to the batf and fbi. also, mr "care about the rights of people" clinton, or his administration approved this action (fbi said 'washington had approved it'). they fbi said the gas masks used by the bds have a finite life, and were close to running out. why couldn't they have just waited? well, there are 9 people supposedly alive. they can tell their story. as far as bill clinton is concerned don't you think he has more pressing matters to attend to besides some small group of people in texas? how about bosnia? now there's a problem...... why couldn't they have waited? they waited too long as it is. something should have been done earlier. they gov is trying to say it was a mass suicide. in the past they had expressed this was a real possibility, but now they decided it wasn't a possibility so they could go on with the raid. apparantly what they feel korash was or was not capable of or going to do was driven by what was most convenient at the time... now this means that: 1: the public and media will forget about all this - having become weary of this has already happened for many people. 2: there will be no investigation (independent or otherwise) or a whitewash. very much a possibility. 3: there will be no unsealing of the warrant and related documents. 4: what anybody will know about this incident will be the batf version. with the way our government is i wouldn't doubt it. 5: the batf has just been given carte blanche for further abuses, with the effective support and approval of the administration. clinton said on the news that he knew about what was happening but that it was all in the hands of the fbi. that is if you choose to believe the media. 6: there will be more abuses, with no concern of administration censure. 7: the precident has been established that the feds can kill in quantity to achieve their aims. especially if the target is excercising their rights under the second amendment, and the rest of the bill of rights, and is a government-declared un-nice fellow. if they had rocket launchers and such (as the press and gov claims) why shouldn't they have done something? what possible use would a religious cult have for a rocket launcher? also, is child abuse covered by the bill of : lls and clams will be pleased. dung tsow ping(sp) will be pleased. saddam hussein(sp) will be pleased. idi amin would be pleased. stalin would be pleased. even hitler would be pleased. any self-respecting despot would nod and say "well done, bill clinton!!" well, then there are probably a lot of self-respecting despots in the us cause i'm sure they feel the same way. god bless america - land of the free!!! (past tense). well, maybe i am overreacting. but i see on the tv as i am typing where maybe, maybe not. there are a lot of questions that should be raised about this incident. the problem is, who will do it and be heard? govt spoksewoman (the new attorney general, known to be almost rabid about private ownership of guns - wants to ban 'assault guns' and just about everything else), is saying the fbi had "amazing restraint", then falls back into the official goverenment line about how the bd were guity of child abuse, and were into it in an on-going basis, and so on. note that according to the liberal elite, giving a child a spanking is regarded as child abuse (seriously - if it gets known, the state can take your child away from you if you spank your kid). she also is saying which state is that? the federal government or an individual state government clinton personally approved this operation - she "told him it was appropriate and so on, and he said ok, do it". somehow, i am not surprised - the people must know who is boss - who is in charge!!! and it is obviouly no longer the people. it seems to me that the people haven't been in charge for a long time. if they really were i don't think the government would be doing as many things as it has in the past. and i maintain the appropriate response, as far as this raid by batf is concerned, regarding child abuse is "so what?". batf are not our child protective services police. yet. after all the bd had been tried on that charge before and found not guilty. the gov't people have pretty much gone silent on the terrible illegal guns bd supposedly has, and stress the "continued child abuse" (apparantly to make it a seem as sort of a 'rescue' operation, figuring everyone hates child abusers, and anything is ok to use against them). occasional references to ammunition possesed by the bds and so on is irrelevant: it is not illegal to have ammunition (yet). true but is it illegal to have a rocket launcher? am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing? or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug, and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order? who will be given the official title of "thought police", i wonder...? and if clinton and friends have their way, (highly likely at this point) the new order government will also have all the guns... so what if "1984" is going to be ten years late... i think we are going to discover that we will be paying dearly for putting this fellow in office for decades to come. even some die-hard supporters are having serious doubts about their savior. shit, if people dont get what they want right away there is an instant problem. clinton has only been in office for a few months. give him a chance to get something done. the guy had a lot of shit thrown in his lap in the beginning. give him a chance to work on things a little. as they say - rome wasn't built in a day. yes, i am upset. i see no good as far as civil/individual rights to come of any of his proposals/decisions for the last month or so... we have really been had. or bill of rights is now nothing but a quaint i highly doubt that it is that bad yet. how about the rodney king trial? the two people who were most responsible got the axe. how bad the axe falls tho is yet to be seen. anybody for impeachment? nope. i would prefer to give bill a little more than four or five months to solve the nations problems. pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu 
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 well, it's now tuesday morning. where are those two arsons, now? i said yesterday they would vanish, and there has been no further mention of them, just the desired "impression" is left. according to kikk radio in houston, all nine survivors are either in hos- pitals or in jails. inlucding the two who allegedly helped start the firess. in the fbi briefing, no mention was made of having the fire starters in why could no one else even talk to them? why could koresh's grandmother talk to him or even send him a taped message? why the total isolation? well, it wasn't total, 100% isolation. after the lawyer snuck in the first time, they (the fbi, etc) let him go back inside several times, including, i think, the day before the final assualt. why not his mother? why not the media? semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 nut case panics!!!!jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight!!!! 
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 cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco, tx. the lies from atf say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear gas pumped in". a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up. all buildings are aflame. no one has escaped. i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. well, actually, the davidians (koreshians?) started the fire themselves, the last i heard ( around 15:00 est). eight people ran out into the feilds surrounding the compound. all were captured and two admitted to setting the fire. i don't buy your napalm theory at all (although it would have made a great commercial for my .sig). why the hell would they have a wood stove burning on such a warm day? flame throwers use liquid petroleum, napalm is more of a gel. now to further dispute your theory, the diluted cs gas was inserted around 06:00 if i understood correctly. the place didn't start burning until around 10:00 or 11:00. this is murder! atf murderers! butchers!! this is genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people, including children! i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. calm down kid. vernon (koresh's real name) said himself that he would not leave that compound alive. the inhabitants thereof had accepted the fact that they may very well have to kill themselves before it was all over. i repeat, as of this time there are **no survivors**! there are at least eight survivors. a caller on rush limbaugh today suggested that the rest may even be hiding in underground bunkers. that's not such a wild idea considering their weaponry and resolve. god help us all. please crosspost -- don't let them get away with the slaughter of the children! w. k. gorman - an american in tears. sheesh! get over it. i haven't heard (read) such ranting since the hindenberg burned. this should have ended 50 days ago. i'm glad my tax dollars have finally stopped working to pay a bunch of guys to stand around and give press conferences. now they can get back to more important things, like catching cigarrette smugglers. napalm sticks to kids. 
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 pol pot 100,000s killed? i've read estimates that pol pot killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million. betz@gozer.idbsu.edu *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho *** *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights *** *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc, semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium 
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 what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours. with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death 51 days later. well, it's said that people get the government they deserve. don't worry, you'll get yours. you'll sleep much better when everyone with thoughts not on the government 'approved' list is rounded up and executed. disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
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 :|> >wrong about the whole guns-for-protection mindset, it ignores the :|> why? if you're not a threat, you're not affected at all. :aha. that's the part that makes me nervous too. who gets to decide if :i am a threat? based on appearance? would someone feel more threatened actions determine whether someone presents a threat... and i don't carry a gun so much for people, cause i tend to fade if there are any about, but due to several encounters with formerly domestic dogs... these critters ain't scared of folks, and can get aggressive. :on staying at and saw someone sitting there cleaning his gun. softly i backed :away, and hiked another 5 miles to get *out of there*. i'll freely admit it here: :i'm not afraid of guns; i'm afraid of people that bring them into the backcountry. i'd count that as a fear of guns... somebody having the sense to keep their weapons maintained isn't as likely to present a threat. the army taught me to clean any weapons daily, since they usually need it, regardless of whether they've been used... you'd be amazed how sweaty a holster can get, or how much trail dust will get in it. and i guess you'd be scared of me and my former explorer post... seems the advisors were national guard special forces grunts, and considered it heresy to be out in the woods without a weapon... course, usually you wouldn't notice 'em... :) they tended to avoid public scrutiny... :of course, that may be the way to solve the solitude problem. just carry a gun :and display it prominently, and one probably won't see most of the other hikers :out there, who will be hiding in the woods. 1/2 :-) : - dania my 9mm goes in a hip holster, mixed in with magazine pouches (hold lotsa stuff in them), canteens, knives, compasses, and such... not so easy to notice, in the off chance i decide to be visible... i prefer not to be, since walking quietly away from active areas increases the number of non-human type critters i see... james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors, but here goes: monday, 19 april, 1993 13:30 edt murder most foul!! cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all i watched the cnn report and i never heard them report that the atf started the fire. they did speculate that the type of cs gas might have _accidentaly_ started the fire. the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco, tx. the lies from atf say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear gas pumped in". a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up. from my understanding of the cnn report it was 6 hours after they started. all buildings are aflame. no one has escaped. i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit the track vehicle that i saw in the vicinity of the building where fire was first noticed looked more like an armored recovery vehicle (the type used to tow tanks of battle fields) and not an armored flame-thrower vehicle. napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas. it seems to me that it would be very poor planing to hope for a wood stove to ignite the "napalm" when the stove would probably not be in use. and i doubt that it would have taken 6 hours to ignite it. this is murder! atf murderers! butchers!! this is genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people, including children! i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. right clinton is in office. (sorry i couldn't resist, please no flames :)) i repeat, as of this time there are **no survivors**! god help us all. please crosspost -- don't let them get away with the slaughter of the children! w. k. gorman - an american in tears. in short mr. gorman (i am assuming mr. as a title because i don't think a woman would be stupid enough to make this post) i don't know what episode of cnn you were watching but it obviously was not the same one that i was watching or your tears seamed to have blured your hearing along with your eye sight. please excuse any mispelled words as i am a product of the arkansas education system which slick willie of the "double bubba ticket" has so greately improved during his tenour as governer of my great state (taking it from 49th in the nation in 1980 and allowing it to drop to 51st, how i don't know, and bringing it to 44st and back to either 48th or 49th in 1990--sorry i can't rember the source of these numbers but they can be found). michael f. rhein 
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 :so much for "infinite patience." ;i find it hard to swallow that prolonged exposure to "massive" amounts of :and they said that the bomb dropped on move wouldn't start a fire, either. :the real kicker, though, is the stated justification for the government's :sudden loss of patience: they wouldn't be able to "rotate their teams" :this outcome could be foreseen a mile (or two) away, but reno didn't even :malcolm fuller, surveying engineering, university of new brunswick the really good part: "at this point we're not negotiating," fbi spokesman bob ricks said at a news briefing about a half hour before the fire began. "we're saying,'come out.come out with your hands up. this matter is over.'" criminal... so much for billary saying we won't force the issue... anybody have the wh information number? figure ol' bill could use a lesson from the rotc he scorned: "you are responsible for all that your unit/troops do or fail to do." want to ask him how he enjoys being responsible for violating the constitutional rights of a group, resulting in the deaths of over a hundred of them, plus four federal agents... james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours. with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death 51 days later. did you forget to put in a sarcasm flag? [standard disclaimer] 
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 }>look, if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from }>bad people, while not interfering with good people, i think we'd all be }>for it. the problem is, the methods we're using now don't do the trick. }don't manufacture them. don't sell them. don't import them. japan did this. it required near-total isolation from the rest of the world for 2 centuries. }some guns will get through, but far fewer, and far less people will }die because of them. hunting weapons could be allowed, of course, as }long as they are big, and bulky, and require reloading after a few }shots (how many times can you shoot at the same animal, anyways one }assumes they are moving!) hunting weapons are great for extortionist sharpshooters. "send me money or else i'll pick you off from 2 miles away." tim starr - renaissance now! assistant editor: freedom network news, the newsletter of isil, the international society for individual liberty, 1800 market st., san francisco, ca 94102 (415) 864-0952; fax: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com think universally, act selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu 
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 }> drugs are banned, please tell me when this supply will dry up? }drugs are easier to manufacture, easier to smuggle, easier to hide. }no comparison. you, sir, are an ignorant fool who knows nothing about either the drug business or the gun business. tim starr - renaissance now! assistant editor: freedom network news, the newsletter of isil, the international society for individual liberty, 1800 market st., san francisco, ca 94102 (415) 864-0952; fax: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com think universally, act selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu 
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 posted by cathy smith for l. neil smith weird science everyone knows how to tell when a politician is lying: his lips move. what may not be equally obvious is that there are politicians and then there are politicians -- and that the phrase "political science" is subject to more than one interpretation. years ago, we heard how "scientists" were worried that a new ice age might be coming, and later on that "nuclear winter" -- smoke and dust thrown into the atmosphere by full-scale international unpleasantness -- was a possibility. something like that may even have killed the dinosaurs. what we didn't hear was that no actual data supported any of this, that real-world events (the burning of kuwaiti oil fields) tended to discredit it, that mostly it was propaganda meant to weaken values that made america the most successful culture in history, and that the dinosaurs probably died of something like the plague when continents drifted together, exposing them to new germs. we miss a lot like this, unless we listen closely. prince william sound, site of the famous oil spill, and mount st. helen's weren't supposed to recover from their respective disasters for at least 100 years. that turned out not to be true, although you'd never know it from watching network nightly news or cnn. it doesn't fit their agenda to inform us that the earth is vast and resilient, and that nature is rougher on herself than we could ever be. but for once, the media aren't entirely to blame. as ignorant of science as they are of everything, they trust "scientists" to unscrew the inscrutable. the trouble is that today's "scientists" have agendas of their own. nobody in government, that wellspring of scientific wherewithal, is going to offer grants to an investigator who states truthfully that there is no respectable evidence for "global warming". the money and power for bureaucrats and politicians lie in mass transit, and they hate the automobile -- blamed as a major cause of the mythical crisis -- as a source of privacy and freedom they find intolerable. the same appears true of "acid rain", a deliberate hoax cooked up by the environmental protection agency (which hates private industrial capitalism almost as much as it does your car) and foisted on real scientists through trickery which has depended on specialists in different fields not talking to each other much. the list goes on, always with a common, disreputable thread. "ozone depletion", for which evidence is even more suspect and contradictory than for acid rain or global warming, is no more than a last, desperate attempt to indict private capitalism in an era when state central planning and the command economy have failed and can only find this final, withered leg to teeter on. decades of anti-nuclear alarmism, resting on foundations of myth and panic-mongering, have failed to erase the fact that nuclear power is the safest, cleanest, most efficient source of energy known to mankind -- and more to the point, that the greater amount of energy there is available to any individual in society, the freer that individual -- and his society -- become. honest studies on the effects of individual gun ownership and self-defense on crime -- conducted by investigators who began as ideological opponents to those concepts, but which show massive reductions in the latter to be the result of the former -- have been suppressed, most recently by the california state government. and what the media didn't say about recent epa "discoveries" on the effect of "secondhand smoking" is that, although some harm to non- smokers may have been detected, it was less (by an order or two of magnitude) than that associated with frying bacon a couple times a week or keeping a pet bird. it's enough to make you wonder whether there was ever anything to the claim that smoking causes cancer. that, of course, is the real threat represented by politically correct science. the world is a dangerous place. it would be nice to know the hazards. i've never believed smoking to be a healthy practice, but, given a lack of credibility on the part of today's science, how am i to decide what to do about it? nicotine is highly addictive, to that much i can attest from experience. yet the stress of quitting may be riskier than to continue. there isn't any way to tell, thanks to the corrupting influence of government money on the scientific establishment. two centuries ago, the founding fathers spared us certain agonies to which every other nation in the world has been subject at one time or another, by creating a legal barrier between politics and religion. each time some short-sighted individual or group has tried to lower the barrier (most recently over the issue of abortion), blood -- real human blood, hot and smoking in the street -- has wound up being shed. real human blood is being shed over scientific issues, as people's lives are ruined through the loss, to agencies like the epa, of livelihood, or property it may have taken a lifetime to accumulate, to diseases caused by toxins associated with burning fossil fuels for electrical power, or thanks to bans on things like cyclamates, when they die from the effects of obesity. what we need now, if we hope to survive as a civilization for two more centuries, is another barrier, a constitutional separation of state and science -- including medicine. knowledge is valuable; real science won't languish for lack of funding. the money will simply come from contributors unwilling to pay for lies, and everyone will benefit. l. neil smith author: the probability broach, the crystal empire, henry martyn, and (forthcoming) pallas lever action bbs (303) 493-6674, fidonet: 1:306/31.4 libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member my opinions are, of course, my own. 
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 even if it were a capital offense, the warrant was not even an arrest warrant, but a search warrant. in other words, there was no evidence of illegal arms, just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to search for illegal evidence. it's hard to know what/who to believe. however, the letter i received from the batf, in response to one i sent to bentsen, said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. 
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 nut case panics!!!!jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight!!!! i really don't understand all this! i watched on satellite network feeds as perhaps 90 people died before my eyes, while the two huey's fanned the flames, and the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate. something was very wrong with that scene. perhaps if i'd watched rambo movies, i might've been dulled to the pain of fellow humans dying. thank god i still feel. i'm very sorry for you who don't. for you who think they got what they deserved. can you really believe that? even if koresh was the sadistic mad man they said he was, did the others deserve his fate? if, in fact, he was mad, wasn't that even more reason to believe he duped his followers, and therefore they were innocent, brainwashed, victims? is there any scenaro that justifies all that death? and if not, it is clear that the deaths would not have occured if the batf has not fucked up initially, and now the fbi got impaitent and pushed korech over the edge. and that's if you buy the latest version of the "story" hook, line, and sinker. i have believed all along that they could not let them live, the embarrassment to the batf and the fbi would've been too severe. remember, this was a suspicion of tax-evasion warrant. there were no witnesses, except the fbi. all information filtered through the fbi. all they had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed near the building, and the press could've done their job, and would've been able to back the fbi's story with close up video, while incurring no risk to the press. unless they did not want the public to see something. the complete lack of any other source of information other than the fbi really causes me concern. sick to my stomach, and getting sicker from all the government apologists jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors, but here goes: monday, 19 april, 1993 13:30 edt murder most foul!! cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco, tx. the lies from atf say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear gas pumped in". a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up. all buildings are aflame. no one has escaped. i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. this is murder! atf murderers! butchers!! this is genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people, including children! i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. i repeat, as of this time there are **no survivors**! god help us all. please crosspost -- don't let them get away with the slaughter of the children! w. k. gorman - an american in tears. the latest news i saw was that two of the eight known survivors (not no survivors!!! as you so rudely put in all caps) said they started the i won't go on with the things the wacko of waco did. --ted schuerzinger zed@dartmouth.edu this is not the secret message. 
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 as a legal gun owner, i must disagree. even when i don't see eye- to-eye with the n.r.a. on a particular issue, they are the only national group which has effectively fought for my rights to target shoot, hunt, and protect myself from dangerous criminals. one more time. it ain't about duck hunting. it ain't about lone perps on lonely streets. it's about defending our rights from the *government*, which has seen fit to ignore history and attempt once again to take them from us. they will succeed if we don't do something now. that's why i think the nra is a bunch of weenies, because they have forgotten that fundamental fact. pardon all my shouting, but there seem to be a whole helluva lot of people on condition white, fat, dumb, and happy, sucking that glass teat for all they're worth.... wake up and smell the cordite, gang, they're shooting at us, and it's high time we shot back, at least with our keyboards..... my two bits' glenn r. stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) fly your flags at half staff and upside down, to mourn and protest the death of the bor. 
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 the following was sent to me by a friend of mine (a med student). it originally appeared in a medical discussion list. --gun control - the ama expressed support for s. 414 and h.r. 1025 (the "brady --handgun violence prevention act"). citing its strong support for the "brady --bill" in past congresses, the ama termed as "particularly alarming" violence --associated with, and stemming from, the widespread and easy availability and --use of firearms. the ama proceeded to comment: "while we recognize that a --waiting period of 5 business days before a handgun purchase will not address --all of the difficult problems that have made violence so prevalent in our --society, we believe that it is a beginning and will save lives. physicians --are first-hand witnesses to the horrendous cost in human life being exacted --by firearm violence. a reasonable waiting period before the purchase of a --handgun is a protection that the american people deserve." (letters to --senator howard m. metzenbaum and representative charles e. schumer; march 11, --1993.) i wonder if the ama has an exact listing of "lives saved" in tennessee, california, and other waiting period states. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 1. make a new newsgroup called talk.politics.guns.paranoid or talk.politics.guns.they'r.here.to.take.me.away 2. move all postings about waco and burn to (guess where).. what does this <censored> from norway think he's doing telling us how to run the place? i wanna know... somebody please 'splain. guess how norway survived the third reich? give you a hint, it wasn't by passive resistance the way the danes did it.... glenn r. stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) wearer of asbestos underoos 
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 yet, the fbi mouthpiece at this afternoon's press conference characterized the quantity of cs gas pumped into the building as "massive", and speculated that after a few hours of exposure any davidian gas masks would become does this sound "not harmful" to you? hm. a previous poster argued that the fact that the bd's did not rush to escape the burning building indicated that it was they, and not any of the government actions, that started the fire. on the other hand, i wonder if, with a face full of "massive amounts of cs," *i* would be able to escape a burning tinder-box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 i can't see these people standing calmly around while they burned to death. sorry. i just can't see them choosing a death as horrible as this. the story doesn't wash. it'll take some convincing to get me to believe it. the fbi said today that koresh had earlier intended to strap himself with explosives, come over to the fbi agents and detonate, but lost his nerve. he lost his nerve for a quick, clean death but not to roasted alive? sorry, don't believe it, even if he was nutty as a fruitcake. on ted koppel last night, the ubiquitous australian woman claimed that koresh trained the women (years ago) how to commit suicide by swallowing cyanide or by putting a gun in their mouth. with cyanide on hand, why choose to roast yourself? there are too many unanswered questions here. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors, but here goes: fret not, you made it. i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. not while we still have our guns. <evil grin> hey, gang, it's not about duck hunting, or about dark alleys, it's about black-clad, helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law. are you ready to defend your constitution? -- glenn r. stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) 
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 the massive destructive power of many modern weapons, makes the cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great. the weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of the government only. individual access would result in the needless deaths of millions. this makes the right of the people to keep and bear many modern weapons non-existant. thanks for stating where you're coming from. needless to say, i disagree on every count. you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction? i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve gas on his/her property. if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals, can there be any hope for us? i don't sign any blank checks. when doug foxvog says "weapons of mass destruction," he means cbw and nukes. when sarah brady says "weapons of mass destruction" she means street sweeper shotguns and semi-automatic sks rifles. when john lawrence rutledge says "weapons of mass destruction," and then immediately follows it with: the us has thousands of people killed each year by handguns, this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions on them. ...what does rutledge mean by the term? cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 if anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors, you can put me down for $1000.00 under the conditions above keith emmen kde@boi.hp.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54380">
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</instance>
<instance id="talk.politics.guns54382">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54382" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 i have believed all along that they could not let them live, the embarrassment to the batf and the fbi would've been too severe. remember, this was a suspicion of tax-evasion warrant. there were no witnesses, except the fbi. all information filtered through the fbi. all they had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed near the building, and the press could've done their job, and would've been able to back the fbi's story with close up video, while incurring no risk to the press. unless they did not want the public to see something. the complete lack of any other source of information other than the fbi really causes me concern. sick to my stomach, and getting sicker from all the government apologists well put, jim. i am as concerned about the media's complicity in this growing coverup. can you imagine the media outrage, the lawsuits, the investigations that would emit if the government kept the media away from any other story? particularly if a republican administration had been behind it. what's going on here? let's look beyond the initial blunder and examine what happened next. i'm a student of human phychology, particularly in the area of psy-ops because i've found some of the techniques to be useful in business negotiations. that puts me firmly in the amateur ranks. this amateur knows that the first thing to do when sizing up the opponent is to do a psychological profile on him. you can bet your ass the fbi had professionally done profiles on koresh. koresh's behavior was emminently predictable. it is typical of people who move away from civilization to be willing to fight to the death to preserve their isolation. it would also be typical, given koresh's religious orientation, for such an individual to interpret a government assault as the apocalypse. suicide is as an acceptable alternative to being consumed in the apocalypse. imho, the fbi knew all this and decided after 50 days of concentrated psy-ops to initiate that apocalypse. i believe they chose a course of action designed specifically to push koresh over the edge while publicly appearing to be acting reasonably. they knew that koresh considered the tanks to be the chariots of fire mentioned in the book of revelations. they knew that sending tanks, oops, combat engineering vehicles, obstensibly to perform "gas insertions" (love that newspeak) would push him over the edge. look at some supporting evidence. koresh's attorney mentioned on tv earlier today (4/20) that one of koresh's major concern was the biblical role of the tanks stationed around the compound. the fbi (through reno on larry king last night and at the news conference this morning) claimed to have listening devices in the compound. if that was true they knew their actions were driving him to the brink. they knew they were pushing the davidians toward mass suicide. any rational and reasonable agency not interested in killing those people would, at the first sign of preparations for suicide, have pulled completely back and would have gotten rid of all the armor. instead they continued with the "gas insertion" right up to the point where flames appeared. the image that will remain etched in my mind is that of the tank strutting back and forth in front of the burning compound, gloating over the kill. let's step back and assess how this thing could have been ended without bloodshed. this technique would have required a law enforcement agency interested in constitutionally enforcing the law and in the preservation of life instead of achieving a military victory and of vengence. the way to have nabbed koresh was simply to have announced a pull back, abandoned the assault, torn down the concertina wire and removed the armor, maintained covert surveillance of the compound and then exploited his ego to flush him out. exploiting his ego would have been simple. a simple invite or two from the tabloid talk shows to come on tv and tell how he whipped the us government would have been something he could not have resisted. he could have then been nabbed when he left the compound. simple, clean and safe but because it would have required the fbi to execute a tactical retreat and would have deprived them of the revenge they sought, it was totally out of the question. not without all that testesterone floating around. after all jannet reno had to show the world how big her balls are. yesterday was a sad, sad day for the american system. i am sick to my very soul. john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54386">
<answer instance="talk.politics.guns54386" senseid="talk.politics.guns"/>
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 anyway, here's how i see the waco affair; i'd be interested in other peoples' interpretations... 1. koresh and his people were basically minding their own business. 2. some weapons violations may have been committed and i wouldn't have disapproved of prosecuting him for those violations. however, i think the batf was criminal for starting negotiations with a military style assault and for firing into a house where there were children and other 3. i don't see they couldn't just leave a token guard on the place and wait the bds out; i don't approve of the tear gas approach and, if it caused the fire to be started, i think the fbi agent responsible should spend 10-20 years in jail. i think the legal term would be "negligent homicide" 4. however, if koresh's response to the tear gas was to kill everyone there, i hold him largely responsible for their deaths. well, it's nice to see someone with a brain, a general lack of paranoia, and a willingness to put his thoughts in public. i tend to agree with all you have "never assume foul motives when stupidity will do." -- jim's corrolary to occam's razor semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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 here is a letter i sent to david skaggs, (dem, co). before anybody says something, yes the letter is a bit "sharp" in tone. i have been writting reasonable and polite letters to him for years, and all i get in return in the hci party line. since he already is nra f rated, i don't think that upsetting him will harm the cause. sorry if you disagree, but recent events in texas really have me pissed. april 20, 1993 representative skaggs, recently i wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms, (batf), in texas. in your response you stated that "events in texas underscore the need for stricter gun control legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the branch davidians. my question to you is, "what grounds would you use to deny them access to firearms?" best i can tell this statement underscores your apparent total ignorance of the subject, and highlights your personal bias against firearms. i say this because there are only two possible paths of "gun control" which you could have been referencing. either: 1) you were talking about their access to semi-automatics firearms. in this case i should point out that semi-automatic firearms are legal in most areas of this country, including texas and colorado. in addition the members of the "cult" have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability to purchase these weapons. so under what grounds would you deny them these guns? their religion? the fact they they live in a large group alone by themselves? because you consider them to be a cult? maybe i consider your church to be a cult! this line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of "thought crimes." you and pat robertson should really get along. 2) you were referring to the alleged fully automatic weapons possessed by the "cult." under current us law, fully automatic weapons have been covered by some of the strictest gun control laws in this nation. so if david koresh illegally possessed them, he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest laws we have. how will more laws help? by the way, it has been reported that david koresh possessed a federal firearms license which would have permitted him to possess fully automatic weapons. if true, the 85 people who perished monday in the fire, died so that the federal government could collect a couple hundred dollars in taxes on guns david koresh didn't declare. i have heard claims that they were "stockpiling weapons." yet considering the number of people in the complex, even 200+ weapons would not have been out of line with gun ownership statistics for all of texas. what's next? a siege of dallas/ft worth for alleged "stockpiling?" face it david skaggs, you have voted for virtually every gun control law that has passed through congress, yet you claim that you are only for "reasonable" restrictions. bull****! handgun control inc. is struggling to maintain 250,000 paid members, while the nra has just exceeded 3,000,000 members. they are still growing at a rate of 2,000 new members per day. driving around your district i see nra stickers every day. in eight plus years of living here i have only seen one hci bumper sticker. when you vote for your "reasonable" gun control laws, are you really representing your district, or are you representing sarah bradys'? thank you, william j. vojak april 20, 1993 representative skaggs, recently i wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms, (batf), in texas. in your response you stated that "events in texas underscore the need for stricter gun control legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the branch davidians. my question to you is, "what grounds would you use to deny them access to firearms?" best i can tell this statement underscores your apparent total ignorance of the subject, and highlights your personal bias against firearms. i say this because there are only two possible paths of "gun control" which you could have been referencing. either: 1) you were talking about their access to semi-automatics firearms. in this case i should point out that semi-automatic firearms are legal in most areas of this country, including texas and colorado. in addition the members of the "cult" have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability to purchase these weapons. so under what grounds would you deny them these guns? their religion? the fact they they live in a large group alone by themselves? because you consider them to be a cult? maybe i consider your church to be a cult! this line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of "thought crimes." you and pat robertson should really get along. 2) you were referring to the alleged fully automatic weapons possessed by the "cult." under current us law, fully automatic weapons have been covered by some of the strictest gun control laws in this nation. so if david koresh illegally possessed them, he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest laws we have. how will more laws help? by the way, it has been reported that david koresh possessed a federal firearms license which would have permitted him to possess fully automatic weapons. if true, the 85 people who perished monday in the fire, died so that the federal government could collect a couple hundred dollars in taxes on guns david koresh didn't declare. i have heard claims that they were "stockpiling weapons." yet considering the number of people in the complex, even 200+ weapons would not have been out of line with gun ownership statistics for all of texas. what's next? a siege of dallas/ft worth for alleged "stockpiling?" face it david skaggs, you have voted for virtually every gun control law that has passed through congress, yet you claim that you are only for "reasonable" restrictions. bull****! handgun control inc. is struggling to maintain 250,000 paid members, while the nra has just exceeded 3,000,000 members. they are still growing at a rate of 2,000 new members per day. driving around your district i see nra stickers every day. in eight plus years of living here i have only seen one hci bumper sticker. when you vote for your "reasonable" gun control laws, are you really representing your district, or are you representing sarah bradys'? thank you, william j. vojak bill vojak vojak@icebucket.stortek.com nra, ila, colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather. (rather not!) the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather. (rather biased!) 
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 i thought that the clipper chip that was posted to t.p.g (sorry, i lost the original post) was a joke. i really did. i didn't believe it for a second. but on the way to work this morning, i heard about it on npr. this scares me almost as much as the doublespeak emanating from the fbi and batf in waco. *** paul eric stoufflet *** columbia presbyterian medical center *** internet: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu *** all opinions are my own 
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 it's hard to know what/who to believe. however, the letter i received from the batf, in response to one i sent to bentsen, said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. check again. you may find that the arrest warrant was issued after the first firefight. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members. correction: the *fbi* *says* that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members. since the press was kept miles away, we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government's claims in this matter. moreover, the batf has admitted having agents in the compound, and as far as i have been able to ascertain, those agents were still in the compound when the first shots were fired. for all we know, these two people may be the agents, who would certainly be unlikely to stay around and "cook" with the faithful... assuming the two people in question were even in the compound at all. maybe i sound paranoid, but i watched janet reno last night harping on how much david koresh was a big, bad child abuser, and i kept wondering why she -- much less batf -- wanted us to infer that she had any jurisdiction over such accusations in the first place. i'm positive that the "sealed warrant" is not for child abuse. what was it for? peobably weapons violations. janet reno didn't say word one last night about weapons violations. why? because she knows that such a case is no longer believable? cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 it's worth noting that us vs. miller sustained miller's conviction of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon. therefore, us vs. miller supports limited government regulation of firearms. then it also supports basing such regulations on ignorance. miller had disappeared, and nobody bothered to present _his_ side to the supreme court -- in particular, that sawed-off shotguns were used in the world war i trenches, and in other tight spots ever since guns had been invented. would _you_ turn one down if you had to "clean" an alley in e. st. louis? vegetarians kill, too 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54404">
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 the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. the batf is there to collect taxes, not to protect your sorry ass or mine. with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. all flame-bait, of course. if you really want to be flame bait, send me your address and i'll tell the batf about those automatic weapons you have stockpiled. you'll be warm in no time. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54405">
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 the fbi released large amounts of cs tear gas into the compound in waco. cs tear gas is a fine power. is cs inflammable. grain dust suspended in air can form an explosive mixture, will cs suspended in air form an explosive mix? could large quantities of cs have fueled the rapid spread of fire in the compound? please note i am directing all followups to talk.politics.guns rod anderson n0nzo | the only acceptable substitute boulder, co | for brains is silence. rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu | -solomon short- satellite n0nzo on ao-16 | 
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 in the interests of completeness, i thought readers of these newsgroups would want to see fbi director william sessions' statement, as released by the fbi press office. fbi director's statement on waco standoff to: national desk contact: federal bureau of investigation, press office, 202-324-3691 washington, april 19 -- the following is a statement by fbi director william s. sessions regarding the branch davidian incident in waco, texas: "i had hoped to be making a very different statement this evening. after very careful planning and extensive preparation we all thought that today's efforts by the fbi to bring the branch davidians out of their compound would result in the peaceful resolution of the stand-off or at least meaningful negotiation. "instead, we are faced with devastation and death. however, i have no question that our plan was correct and was conducted with extreme professionalism and care. i applaud the restraint shown by agents in the face of life-threatening gunfire, and i thank them for risking their lives to try to end this peacefully. i have only the greatest admiration for the courage and professionalism of all involved." -30- 
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 i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors, but here goes: monday, 19 april, 1993 13:30 edt murder most foul!! cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco, tx. the lies from atf say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear gas pumped in". a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up. all buildings are aflame. no one has escaped. i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. actually if 'a few minutes' translates into 6 hours, you have it right. but you (and i guess your single-source news agency cnn) failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in plain this is murder! well, small-scale jim jones type suicide with fire instead of kool-aid. atf murderers! butchers!! sorry, guy, you got it wrong. atf was pumping tear gas into the compound. the branch davidians (going along with their apocolyptic faith) set their own compound on fire killing all but 9 or so. no children survived. this is genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people, including children! self-slaughter, anyway. i pity the children who were to young to be able to make a conscious choice. i have predicted this from the start, but god, it sickens me to see it happen. i had hoped i was wrong. i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with, and loved, left alive. i was wrong. the nazis have won. you are wrong. thank goodness. i would suggest, however, that you take a deep breath, and wait 30 minutes or so before posting. also make sure your facts are correct before making your allegations(sp.). i repeat, as of this time there are **no survivors**! you repeated wrong. there were 9. god help us all. god help the branch davidians. please crosspost -- don't let them get away with the slaughter of the children! no don't!!!! there is way too much of this crap being crossposted all over creation as it is!!!!!! <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom << individual liberty and personal responsibility >> (and i do, in fact, think that this is true) and that totalitarianism << absolute government control and tyranny >> represents freedom's opposite (which it does), did the usa really win the cold war? standard disclaimers always apply! graham k. glover 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54416">
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 watch from where? two miles away? far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "enough is enough." please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago. no answer. you didn't answer the question. the fbi took people out of camera range. it is thus possible that they were engaging in questionable activities. i do not feel like the cameras were out of range. cameras watched the first confrontation. cameras watched the banners. cmaeras watched the final confrontation with tanks. cameras watched the fire. when weren't cameras able to watch? when would cameras be unable to watch people coming out with their hands up? as to your question, please tell me what you think would have happened had the atf goon squad knocked and asked politely several weeks ago (as opposed to playing rambo with a t.v. crew in tow). well, that is what batf should have done. either, koresh would have gone peaceably as he has done in the past, or perhaps it was already too close to the apocalypse in his own mind. it is hard to predict the actions of a leader who would not release the children when most rational people would. now will you answer my question up top? betz@gozer.idbsu.edu *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho *** *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights *** *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc, semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium 
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 you are loosing. [stuff deleted] avoid situations which encourage criminals. then you will be as safe as possible. such as it is ... really? how do you avoid situations which encourage criminals? i'd really like to know. would you, say, prohibit female college students from riding their bicycles near the university during the sounds a bit drastic, doesn't it? especially when the university is locatd in a nice residential area. a friend of mine was attacked and nearly raped in just this situation. the police didn't feel she was in a situation which 'encouraged criminals'. what do you think? should we just tell her, that it was her fault for daring to ride a bicycle in the middle of the day? that she didn't avoid a situation that encouraged criminals? if that's the case, then we'd all better put bars on our doors and windows and pray for a police state to keep us all safe. crime happens in all situations - there are no defined areas that criminals avoid. larry sacks advanced micro devices lsacks@angelo.amd.com 
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 : failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in : plain view. brent, i'm still waiting to see if there are any evidence of how the fire got started, so i'm not going to tell you who did it... as far as you keep talking about the davidians pouring kerosene all over, stop and *think* for a second if it is possible the stove or lamp was knocked over and started a fire, and the davidians were pouring water on it (wrong solution but i doubt i can do much better in their states of mind...) to try to put it out? by the way, just how far where you standing from the davidians when you saw them setting the place on fire? oh, in case you are new in town, microwave ovens doesn't work very well when there's no electricty. :-0 get some *facts* before you post next time! --f. chiu 
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 as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas. do you eat all your food cold? ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves? very popular. electric stoves outside metro-areas especially. and they work especially well when the feds have cut off your utilities. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54428">
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 napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm in texas. do you eat all your food cold? ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves? very popular. electric stoves outside metro-areas especially. brent shows his ignorance once again. power had been cut for weeks. and he's never lived in a rural area if he thinks electric stoves have favor there. they stop working when the power fails, and power restoration come much slower in the country, than the city. lp gas stoves and ovens are very much prefered. <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch. watch from where? two miles away? far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "enough is enough." please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago. it didn't happen. scenario that is simplest and most plausible. i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely the fbi sent letters to martin luther king's wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair! again, please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government. more than someone who would not release children from the compound. obviously. you are an authority worshiper. i.e., more than david koresh/vernon howell/"jesus christ". i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in 1992 that clearly showed that this was a cult. give me a camera, and time with you, and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader. guarenteed. you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source. i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair. i think they bungled it badly from the start. but i don't think they are responsible for the fire, which started in two different places. two places, eh? you saw this? or did the wonderful fbi tell you this? i saw one place. the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair. but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage. these people were told to get the hell out of camera range. why? couldn't answer this one, eh? this is the most important question of all, it is the root cause of all the other suspicion. betz@gozer.idbsu.edu *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho *** *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights *** *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc, semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 the koreshians rubbed themselves out. neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene, so i'm not particularly concerned. (or shall we blame jim jones on the government also?) it is silly to make this statement. fifteen minutes after the fire started, the "official word" out of fbi headquaters in dc was that the dv's committed suicide. it would seem logical that the lantern story has more credibility. you can't even to pretend to know for sure what happened... although clinton is doing just that. | jeff strait | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu | | university of illinois | phone: (217) 333-6444 | | impeach klinton | 
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 what does this <censored> from norway think he's doing telling us how to run the place? i wanna know... somebody please 'splain. guess how norway survived the third reich? give you a hint, it wasn't by passive resistance the way the danes did it.... i believe it had something to do with a politician whose name isn't exactly the most complimentary word nowadays...one vidkun quisling. we all know what a quisling is, right? i'm sure everyone can come up with a few examples right about now :->. 
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 a poster claims he 'always asks [anti-gunners] what they think would be reasonable personal firepower restrictions'. ok then ... caliber : not greater than 32 muzzle : not greater than 300 ft/lbs with any combo of bullet wt/vel action : single shot rifles and single action revolvers revolvers bearing no more than six rounds and incorporating an 'anti-fanning' mechanism to discourage roy rogers wannabes. bullets : any non-explosive variety, hps just fine. now - these specs leave the 32 h&r magnum as about the most powerful allowable civie cartridge for handgun or rifle use. it would be reasonably effective against home intruders, muggers, rabid wolves and other such nasties, even with the firearm-type limitations. at the same time, this caliber/power limit would reduce the ultimate lethality of hits. i suspect that you think that this is less lethal than the typical "assault weapon". you are wrong. compared to what most criminals use, a 9mm with military ammo (fmjs), or a military rifle (use is extremely rare), .223 or 7.62mm with military ammo (fmjs), the .32 h&r magnum with "civie" bullets is more lethal. most of the arms which criminals (and the military) use are among the least lethal arms in existance. what if we just punish the criminal and leave the law abiding citizen alone? it hasn't been tried in recient times, but it might work. 
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 [the original question was about who started the fire and whether the "madmen" were inside or outside the compound. to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside.] was that your argument. well, you didn't make it very well. you started from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of insanity, rather than an act of negligence or an accident. recall, one survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene lamp. kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot, no? according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began, koresh and his followers all believed he was christ. koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound. these were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of his "magnified horn". ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described. point noted. have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance? better hurry; i believe the deadline was april 15. i paid my taxes. there was no reference to sex or religion on the form. "nice evasive maneuver, mr. chekov, but they're still on our tail." let me ask it more plainly. which of the above complaints about david koresh's religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? :two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set :by cult members. so, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same details, will you believe them? believe them? i won't even recognize them. and neither will anyone else who doesn't know them personally. do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras? it's not entirely far-fetched. nobody outside the compound would know everybody inside the compound. don't forget, the batf admits having agents inside the compound, in any case. at this point, we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors. best wait til more light is shed upon them. of course, this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness. i'm simply being the devil's advocate. there's reasonable doubt by the boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official government story on waco. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 :according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off :began, koresh and his followers all believed he was christ. koresh :had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound. :these were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of :his "magnified horn". ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar :to the way jim jones has been described. i don't know how accurate the documentary was; however, koresh was never convicted of any crimes against children, nor was the batf after him for child abuse. their purview (in this case) is strictly in firearms violations, so this information is irrelevant to the discussion. :fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background :checks. plus, those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their :decisions in great detail to congress. why would the fbi want to fulfill :koresh's own prophecy? those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain *something*, but whether their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know. and who is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled? it only holds meaning for the nine who survived. :>correction: the *fbi* said that two of the cult members said this; so far, :>no one else has been able to talk to them. :so, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same :details, will you believe them? *if* they confirm the story, i probably will. definitely not until then, mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54439">
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 you are loosing. there is no question about it. of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. no matter how hard you try, public opinion is set against the rkba. only irrational fools such as yourself are set against rkba. there are *plenty* of people who support it. this is the end. by the finish of the clinton administration, your rkba will be null and void. tough titty. the government will be overthrown *long* before that happens. a *huge* millitia composed of all available men and women who care about their country will defeat the forces of the evil klintonistas. the people *will* prevail! oh, so you think armed citizens alone can't overthrow the government? consider this: do you think *all* law enforcement officials and members of the armed forces will turn against the people that they are entrusted to serve? not hardly. you can count on a lot of people in the army, marines, air force, navy, national guard, police officers, and so on joining in the cause to defend the liberties and freedoms of american citizens. count on it! the government will not be able to disarm everyone without starting a civil war! you had better discover ways to make do without firearms. the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. there is nothing you can do about it. those who live by the sword shall die by it. the press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it ! surrender your arms. soon enough, officers will be around to collect wrong again. people will just hide their guns so these "officers" (more like jack-booted stormtroopers) will not be able to find them. them. resistance is useless. they will overwhelm you - one at a time. your neighbors will not help you. they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'. they will unless they are idiots. they will realize that if they don't then they will be *next* including you. believe me if what you describe happens they will be coming for *more* than guns. disarming citizens would require that everyone's cherished freedoms and liberties be suspended temporarily. more likely, they'd never be restored unless the *people* do something about it. too fucking bad. you have gone the way of the kkk. violent solutions are passe'. avoid situations which encourage criminals. then you will be as safe as possible. such as it is ... scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54444">
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 i have been convinced of the right of americans to an effective self-defense, but something strikes me as odd among the pro-rkba arguments presented here. the numbers comparing hundreds of thousands (indeed, even a million) of instances of law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity, seem valid to me. likewise the number of gun-caused homicides each year (about 11,000/year?). however, it is surprising that the "evil antigun empire " (darth vader breathing sound effect here) never tries to compare "all legitimate gun defenses" vs. "all gun crimes." instead, it's always "all legitimate gun defenses," which includes cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed, and cases in which the criminal is not here, vs. just criminal gun homicides, which only includes case sin which the victim died. why is this? of course, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that in each crime already measured (involving guns), the consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that a gun-based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn into a gun-basd robbery+homicide. whereas in the legitimate gun defenses, one may assume that all those criminals who were deterred would have committed more crime or more serious crimes had they not been deterred. -case kim kim39@husc.harvard.edu 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54447">
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 andy@sail.stanford.edu (andy freeman) says: i have been at a shooting range where gang members were "practicing" shooting. how do "we" know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law-abiding menacing minorities. btw - why the sneer quotes? "we" know because the area that the gun shop/shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago. that is a gang infested area. there are many, many bad things going on in that area. also, i have several that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these folks. by the way, where did i say that they were minorities? that was what i got from your phrasing, too. well, then, were they (the ones you saw) black? you don't deny seem to deny it, either. do you think that only minorities have gangs? not so. as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren't just practicing for marksmanship. i don't know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting. that is the recommended way to practice with a ccw, too. aim alone is no good for defense, if you can't get the gun rapidly. you would have been there andy it would've been obvious to you too. what, outside of prejudice, would have made it obvious? of course it might not have been. who knows. all i do know is that i was there, i here and i know that they were gang bangers. when you live here long enough becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors, gang signs, etc. yes, prejudice is more subtle in the north, isn't it? one last thing. my sister is a social worker. she makes it her point to find these things out (gang signs, colors, etc) because it is in her best interest to do so. she is nice enough to let me know these things so i can watch out for myself as i live right on the border of the west side of the city. enough more than enough. i understand you completely. jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54448">
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 that was the entire point to *you*. what exactly did i claim? "i've heard eye-witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire. quite effectively." i wasn't wrong . . . i've heard those descriptions. if you're paying attention, i've mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes, but the main gun firing was an account i heard. that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the, to use your words, "bullshit filters". stating that i *claimed* this is a falsehood. later in the same post: another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt, some were in rubble. based on what i remember, i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two. fine, *now* you are stating that you believe their claims (or that you are "inclined" to. see below for a stronger statement of your beliefs). those claims are still ludicrous, however. previously awesley had written: you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers. prompting me to write: to fire fragmentary grenades? i doubt that as well. to fire concussion grenades? perhaps. to fire tear gas? certainly. but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags, wouldn't you, since it makes your other claim seem more plausible. to which awesley replied: john, again, strawman techniques. do you feel you're losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down? what i read said nothing about what they fired. and so i put nothing in there. if you need some help, let me know and i'l take your side of this for a while. you're not scoring here, you're boring here. but why did you mention grenade launchers at all? because it supports the notion that the tanks shelled buildings. and it supports that notion because it conjures images of troops launching fragmentary grenades. but that too is ludicrous. if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit, people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades. i would know about awesley relied: glad to know you're such an expert. nice to hear some an authority. i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge -- if it had happened, you would have know it. since you are such an authority, you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover-up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot. some claimed 100+ dead, others said 300. the offical number is 43 but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was "several". i've also heard some things about that but i won't dare repeat them. you'd assert that i claimed they were truth. yes, if it happened i would have heard about it. everybody would have. army tanks don't fire their cannons in american cities in the 1960's without it becoming common knowledge, without minority leaders seizing on it and condemning it over and over again, without civil libertarians saying "this has gone far enough." so, yes, my never hearing of it was the basis for my disbelieving the claim. now i have more reasons to disbelieve it. not one poster has written to say, yes, i lived in detroit at that time and everybody knew that the tanks had fired shells. this is the usenet. if it had happened, somebody here would remember it. furthermore, your own research failed to come up with any support for the claim. the claim is extraordinary and it has no supporting evidence, extraordinary or not. unless you count the brags of a couple of guardsmen shooting the shit. i do not. unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up. taking the tour after the riots, it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops. or so i recall from 26 years ago. and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks. so it would have been an army cover-up. quibble. fine, it was an army cover-up. six years in the reserves has taught me the difference also. but do you think that in two and half decades not one guilt-ridden participant has come forward and said "yes, i shelled americans," or "i gave the orders to fire the cannons," or "i helped cover it up"? if your mind is open enough to believe that, well, good for you. i to live in reality. and here in reality, i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells, much less fired them. awesley replied: given the level in destruction in detroit, i'm quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns. good. then we can drop the junk about you not claiming that they did. your belief fails a basic reality check: why isn't it known? awesley concludes: now then, we've bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you've managed to say is that you don't believe the account i cited. actually, now we have established that i don't believe what you believe, as well as why i don't believe it. and if it's boring, then i yield the last word to you, if you want it. you may say anything you like with impunity--i am dropping the subject. --john l. scott 
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 i was shocked to see that the subject of my last rely to awesley was "luser!" that was certainly not my intention. i meant to leave the subject line unchanged. i believe that the nntp server i use at columbia must have put in that subject line in protest over problems with my header. that was rather rude of them, but beggars can't be choosers, i suppose. in any case, i didn't do it and i apologize to awesley for the apparent --john l. scott 
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 note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that duke was leading he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy. so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting i'd hardly call that "giving up his chance to be vice president of the us"; the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil. still, it does imply that he doesn't want to be associated with duke. 
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 fcrary@ucsu.colorado.edu (frank crary @ university of colorado, boulder): i don't know about animal attacks, but there are 23,500 murders each year and under 500 die in the manner you suggest. if only 2.1% of the murders were killings by "wacko"s, you would be wrong. worse, there are also 102,500 rapes and 1,055,000 aggravated assaults each year. these numbers make violent attacks, and preventing them, thousands of times more significant than the accidents you are worried about. these stats are invalid; we're talking backcountry. these stats for rapes/assaults/deaths do not represent the backcountry singularly; the great majority represent urban incidents. you should have pointed this out. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54453">
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 -> > this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me. according -> > to the federalist paper's, a well regulated militia has a well defined -> > structure and follows nationally uniform regulations. -> perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers!! perhaps you should, reread federal 29 which deals exclusively with the "well regulated malitia." here is what is says about its character: to oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, it also talks about the "well regulated militia" having a nationally uniform in structure and disipline. i will note you did quote the end of this particular paragraph which states: little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year. but, do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year. just to try to get the same people every year, provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force, and find a suitable location, it requires a continually standing committee of organizers. since a well regulate militia is nationally uniform in structure and disipline, and meet once or twice a year to train, how can you claim a "well regulated militia" is not well organized. but i will concide a "well organized militia" is not necessarily a "well regulated militia." several people have stated that the "well organized militia" is what is defined under 10 usc 311, which states the militia of the united states consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the united states and of female citizents of the united states who are commissioned officers of the national guard. this deos define the militia, but were is the adjective "well regulated." 10 usc 311 does not define a "well regualed militia" in any way, shape, or form. it only defines who can become part of a well regulated militia the federalist papers clearly define the "well regualed militia" as a proper subset of the militia. in the same paragraph quoted above, it talk above "disciplining all the militia of the united states" so they fit the "character of a well-regulated militia." this is what the paragraph states about the associated costs: it would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the states. to attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. another quote provide by charles scripter is: james madison, federalist paper 41 (regarding the "general welfare" clause): "nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars." so the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" must either qualify or explain the phrase "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state." the definition of "explain" as stated in "the american hertitage dictionary of the enlish language" the new college edition, 1982 is: 1) to make plain or comprehensible; remove obscruity from; elucidate: "it was the economists who undertook to explain this puzzle" 2) to define; explicate; expound: he explained his plan. 3) to offer reasons for or a cause of; an answer for' justify: explain an error the second phrase clearly does not "explain" the first, therefore the second phrase must "qualify" the first. the definition given for "qualify" is: 1) to describe by enumerating the characteristics or qualities of; characterize. 2) to make competent or suitable for office, position, or 3) to give legal power to; make legally capable. 4) to modify, limit, or restrict, as giving exceptions. 5) to make less harsh or severe; moderate 6) grammar: to modify the meaning of (a word or phrase) since "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" does not describe, modify or make less harsh anything and it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task. by process of elimination it must fall into definition #3. and since #3 deals with legal power, the same thing the constitution does, it must be the correct definition in this case. therefore, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" gives legal power to the "well regualated militia" and this legal power "shall not be infringed". i thank you very much mr scripter, you have provided me with more evidence that the second amendment only concerns itseft with the people's right to form well regulate militia, and says very little about the right of an untrained person to "keep and bear" a .50 caliber machine gun. and since i, totally untrained in the use of any firearm (something i personly have meant to correct by going to a nra gun safety course and joining a gun club), cannot legally buy such a machine gun, i conclude the courts and democraticly elected congress agree with -> so now we know which category mr. rutledge is in; he means to destroy -> our liberties and rights. i mean "to destory our liberties and rights." is that why a participate in the discussion of exactly what "our libertues and rights" are? i force my version of "our liberties and rights" by begining statements of what "our liberties and rights" with "all that the second amendment clearly states to me." using expressions, such as "states to me," clearly mean i intend to force my views on others? i don't think so. so in effort not to force my views and not "to destory our liberties and rights," i state that nothing i have written, or will write, in the matter of "liberties and rights" is the final word. for i am only one person among many and the final word on "liberties and rights" cleary and irrevocably belongs to the many. | | "if only it were a modern document, with a | | john lawrence rutledge | smart index and hyper links stretching all | | research assistant | through the world data net. it was terribly | | | frustrating to flip back and forth between | | interactive media group | the pages and crude flat illustrations that | | computer science department | never even moved. nor were there animated | | umass - lowell | arrows or zoom-ins. it completely lacked a | | 1 university ave. | for sound. | | lowell, ma 01854 | "most baffling of all was the problem of new | | | words... in normal text you'd only have to | | (508) 934-3568 | touch an unfamiliar word and the definition | | jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu | would pop up just below." | | | from david brin's "earth" | 
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 to: bbs.billand@tsoft.net newsgroups: talk.politics.guns in-reply-to: <ow522b2w165w@tsoft.net> organization: cray research, inc. cc: bcc: i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns (ie waiting periods, background check etc..) in the states of nevada and oregon. thanks. bill anderson (bbs.billand@tsoft.net) in oregon your must get a background check (ie fingerprints, full slap), 15 day waiting period. that is unless you have a ccw then all requirments have been meet. ernie smith ernie@oregon.cray.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54455">
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 |> >the armed citizen |> >mere presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents |> >crime in many instances, as shown by news reports sent to the |> >armed citizen. |> perhaps so, but note that of the accounts cited, there was only |> one in which no shot was fired. of the other twelve, five |> described cases in which the assailant was wounded by a shot, |> and six described cases in which the assailant was killed by a |> shot. and, had not these citizens accepted the moral responsibility to protect their own lives, there could well have been at least 13 innocent victims lying dead and several criminals still out walking the streets perpetrating their crimes on others. * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54457">
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 actually, now we have established that i don't believe what you believe, as well as why i don't believe it. and if it's boring, then i yield the last word to you, if you want it. you may say anything you like with impunity--i am dropping the subject. --john l. scott how very kind of you! 
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 |> does anybody reading this group have an actual, honest-to-god |> experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about? it was around 1969 in the shenandoah valley near woodstock, virginia. me, my wife, a friend, his wife, and his 2 kids were hiking in a totally desolate mountain area. all of a sudden, large rocks began raining down on us. looking up, we saw at least 3 punks gleefully letting loose rocks from what was an obvious stash. they were a couple hundred feet above us. meanwhile, the women and kids were screaming and running for cover and the punks were shrieking with laughter. me and my friend yelled for them to knock it off. they responded that we should "get f***ed!". me and my friend drew our pistols and fired a couple of times into the trees above their heads. they ran. with no more 3-5 pound rocks coming at our heads, we proceeded on our journey. sorry, but me and my friend saw no need to let it evolve to a more "violent" level than we were already experiencing. i guess we should have tried harder to understand and cope with the anger that society had instilled in them and was driving them to do such things. guess that's a cross i'll have to bear. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54463">
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 :an 'edu'er not towing the "party" line, thank you! :jim you're welcome! ;) actually, i'm probably something of an outcast, because i've committed the ultimate college-student heresy: i'm not a liberal. (this is not liberal-bashing.) - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54464">
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 ah yes, i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children. actually all the liberals i've seen have deplored the burning of children. i would far preferred that the davidians had not set the fire that burned themselves and their children to death, but i don't believe that the responsibility for the fire (or the almost complete absense of attempts to escape the blaze) can be placed at the door of the federal authorities. so far, there is no credible evidence that the bd's set the fires themselves. we only have the atf/fbi's sayso. law enforcements type would *never* lie to cover their ass, right? probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage. not so. my wife got me a convenient plastic "drip pan" for christmas... probably had a few like that in nazi germany, as well. yeah, those nazis. you know how we liberals just love those nazis. no, not love, just share a surprising similarity of beliefs and oh yeah, atf/fbi now claims, according the the media, that there are a few survivors. the number seems to vary minute by minute. yeah, as information trickles in... funny how that works... funny, yeah, funny how you didn't wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of "facts" before proclaiming the bd's burned themselves to death. nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu nengle@silver.ucs.indiana.edu + wayne j. warf -- wwarf@ucs.indiana.edu -- i speak for myself only + |*clinton*gore*cia*fbi*dea*assassinate*bomb*wod*bor*atf*irs*resist*nsa* | |*christian*god*satan*apocalypse*zog*nazi*socialist*communist*explosive*| +*fundamentalist*revolution*nsc*federal reserve*constitution*gold*fema* + 
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 ah yes, i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children. probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage. probably had a few like that in nazi germany, as well. oh yeah, atf/fbi now claims, according the the media, that there are a few survivors. the number seems to vary minute by minute. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54469">
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 ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves? very popular. electric stoves outside metro-areas especially. oh, i see. electricity is a natural right & our wonderful government would -never- cut off the power to the people they were besieging. are you really this dumb, or just acting like it for the sake of no, they didn't have electrical power, but no, i don't find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible,either. it's not like this whole discussion is relevant. it started when some- one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig- nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings. i'm not a groveling apoligist for the feds, far from it. but wild ac- cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair. tom gift tomgift@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
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 fact: both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility, even grief, over the deaths in waco. fact: regardless of who started the fire, there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two. cruel and unusual punishment (dying tortured rabbits on tape?) come to mind. fact: it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law; where death is involved, this offense carries a penalty of life in prison. fact: impeachment is allowable for "high crimes and misdemeanors." anything that's a federal felony should qualify. conclusion: we have no choice, if we are an honest people, but to impeach mr. clinton, and remove reno from office. glenn r. stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) wearer of asbestos underoos 
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 :>hey, gang, it's not about duck hunting, or about dark alleys, :>it's about black-clad, helmeted and booted troops storming :>houses and violating civil rights under color of law. :>are you ready to defend your constitution? :its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the :snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the :name of 'self defense.' well, the count is now at least 86 dead by government action. how many have been killed in the last year in the manner you described? what, no facts? oh, how silly of me; i forgot, you don't like guns, so you don't need no stinkin' facts. :don't get too self-righteous, mr. gun-toter. don't get too smug, mr. gun-hater. mike ruff - this above all, to thine own s t r i d e r mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu - self be true. --polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * * those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** * liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * * safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * ** nor safety. --b. franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * * 
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 as a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the governor of texas when her holiness referred to the dividians as _mormons_ and called for their expulsion from tx. any texans have details? the davidians are a 60-year-old splinter from the seventh day adventists, if that's the information you were looking for. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 no, they didn't have electrical power, but no, i don't find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible,either. i don't know how quickly you can get a woodstove to heat up from a cold start, but mine takes about three hours. it's not like this whole discussion is relevant. it started when some- one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig- nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings. mox nix. the bd's were prepared to provide their own heat and light, and were doing so for weeks while the power was out. that means the compound contained containers of flammable liquids or gases (that could be busted by a tank intrusion), plus ignition sources, which no one can tell for sure were all off at the time. i'm not a groveling apoligist for the feds, far from it. but wild ac- cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair. on the contrary. we are proposing alternate scenarios. the people who are coming to wild conclusions are the feds, who are absolutely positive how the fire started, even though none of them were in a position to see it, either (and the stories they "hear" from their prisoners changes hourly). cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 a couple of questions for you firearms law experts out there: question #1 according to the nra/ila state firearms lawbook, in wisconsin it is 'unlawful for any person except a peace officer to go armed* with a "concealed and dangerous weapon." there is no statutory provision for obtaining a lixense or permit to carry a concealed weapon.' * jury instructions indicate that 'to go armed' one must have a firearm on one's person or within his immediate control and available for use. does this mean that open carry is allowed? if so, just how 'open' does it have to be? would an in the pants holster be considered concealing? what if one had their jacket on and it partially covered the weapon? also, is there any way to be allowed to carry concealed, or is it just not allowed, question #2 as i understand it, in evanston, il, they have a ordinance banning handguns. is there any way to get around this provision? what would the penalty if you were found out be? what if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment there? how would the city law apply to your impending trial for the shooting? also, what is il state law concerning short barreled weapons? short barreled shotgun is what i would be interested in if a handgun were not available, either that or a shortened 9mm carbine (ie colt, marlin). one more thing, what is the chance of getting a ccw permit in il without being rich or famous or related to the mayor? please send replies via e-mail, as things seem to be piling up around t.p.g a little faster than i can handle. thanks again ------- steve syck syck5280@miller.cs.uwm.edu -------- 
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 please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago. now will you answer my question up top? a suggestion: cameras panning over planted automatic weapons, followed by a show trial and medals all around for the valiant forces of lawn order? cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54481">
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 women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men. our new attorney general seems determined to do so. in the past few days she has said: she hopes the king beating will not reduce public confidince in law enforcement. the tactics of using tear gas and driving tanks through walls in waco were intended to further a "peacefull solution" to the crisis. those same tactics were intended to prevent a mass suicide, but she never expected the sect to react by killing themselves. it's comforting to know, at least, that she wasn't clinton's first choice... frank crary cu boulder 
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 ah yes, i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children. probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage. probably had a few like that in nazi germany, as well. oh yeah, atf/fbi now claims, according the the media, that there are a few survivors. the number seems to vary minute by minute. 
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 that the gas was "not harmful", as the sensitive, caring janet reno described is it? as far as i know, tear gas, especially in large concentrations, is very dangerous (even toxic) for small children. this makes the fbi's supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather frank crary cu boulder 
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 if so, why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam? cs "tear-gas" was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat. well, not quite that bad, but you can't really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies. i think the is bz gas, not cs or cn. bz gas exposure results in projectile vomiting, loss of essentially all muscle control, inability to concentrate or think rationally and fatal reactions in a significant fraction of the population. for that reason its use is limited to military frank crary cu boulder 
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 i agree that they deserved a trial. they had more than 40 days to come out and get their trial. they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside. they chose to stay inside even after they were tear i do not find these actions rational. even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved. mr. roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard. unworthy of comment. but apparently true. my opinion, only, of course. so, your opinion is truth. i see... :-) humans died yesterday, humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the they did. that is the undeniable truth. i cried for them. nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty. that is undeniable truth. no, it is not. it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen, and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside. i'm not proposing this as the way it went down, but just to point out that it's not "undeniable" that if they walked out yesterday, they would be alive today. you can believe that if you wish. it is undeniable, however, that people have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff. and since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse, you can not say undeniably that there wouldn't have been a mass suicide if the fbi had simply stayed outside and waited another 51 days. my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities to do so. my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning. my heart "bleeds" for no one. you are the "bleeding heart". and i'm sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do. you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did. i am the heartless bleeding heart? you are not making sense. you seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this compound when they had 51 days to let them out. that sounds pretty heartless to me. i just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn't stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to koresh. this makes me sad and sick. you seem to say they got what they deserved. i do not think this. however, if they did set the fire (which started in more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves. "they got what they wanted". what kind of creature are you that you can believe this? have you ever heard of jonestown? the sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority worshipers and their only authority was koresh/howell. if these people were able to think for themselves, there would likely be a lot more survivors today. koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as last year. i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept. and likely by arlen spectre and congress. this is good. they have bungled the affair from the start. we agree on this. now lets have your god, the fbi, investigated, too. by all means, the fbi should be investigated, too. btw, i thought the second ammendment was god. :-) jmd@handheld.com 
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 just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (ap, etc.) that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires. it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause. consider this: the bds had more than one lamp; the tanks made more than one hole in the building. did anyone else notice on the video that it appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building, there was a tank nearby? the fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not rule out anything. also, where are these several witnesses? the way i heard it (from the fbi spokesman on cnn) the "witnesses" were all people driving the tanks. one other point, i'm no fan of janet reno, but i do like the way she had the "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility. seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue. too bad nothing will happen to her or him. the fbi and the media have done their job well. dwayne jacques fontenot 
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 you didn't even get the capitalization correct! try reading usca on the constitution, or get any other correct version of the this is really stupid nitpicking. capitalization rules in the late 18th century were quite different from today, and what was posted matches current capitalization rules. we also don't make 's' look like 'f' and other such things done in the late seventeen hundreds. in the original constitution, "militia", "arms", etc. were capitalized simply because they were nouns. this is also done currently in german. there is no special significance to these words simply because they are capitalized. the capitalization denotes no special emphasis. -pete zakel (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz) aries (mar 21 - apr 19) you are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt. you are quick tempered, impatient, and scornful of advice. you are not very 
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 and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch. would *you* have come out if you knew the only national tv cameras were well over a mile away, and yet the agents with the guns were only a few yards away? they had contact with a lawyer, so i am inclined to believe they had an idea of what their situation actually was. this also leads to the conspiracy theory that the lawyer had the batf pinned on rights violations if the bd's acted as witnesses, hence the arson. i doubt that one too, but it is still quite clear that leaving a safe place to surrender is a rather stupid thing to do until that place is no longer safe. do you disbelieve everything the fbi says? as a matter of course, given how they've allowed no other views to be heard. i'll reserve judgement until the trial, but so far as the fbi is concerned their statements carry the same amount of weight as photons at rest. the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair. but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous, yes. possible, yes. plausible? get the jury. if the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound, i would have expected far more cult members to flee the compound. or at least come out shooting. that's what gets me too. it is likely the cult members were holed up in an enforced place inside the building. with a decent arson attempt i suspect many of them could have been trapped. in addition, the introduction of cs gas for several hours would have rendered many of them immobile if not unconscious when their masks quit. all the props are there, but proving what scene was played is difficult. the only certainty is that the fbi and batf have few witnesses against them. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 i'd like to point out that i was in error - "terminator" began posting only six months before he purchased his first firearm, according to private email from him. i can't produce an archived posting of his earlier than january 1992, and he purchased his first firearm in march 1992. i guess it only seemed like years. kirk hays - nra life, seventh generation. i first read and consulted rec.guns in the summer of 1991. i just purchased my first firearm in early march of this year. not for lack of desire for a firearm, you understand. i could have purchased a rifle or shotgun but didn't want one. -case kim 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54502">
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 well josh i agree with you to some respect...less your spelling errors. the gov'mnt always must win! even if they kill every man women and child....by god they must win at all costs...... this happens over and over and over in this country. lets make excuses, get the worthless press to cover up everything, let the officials take the heat for top management stupidity etc...etc... i am sick with greif for the entire well being of this nation and the constitution in claims to protect. later morty 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54506">
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 oh, then, i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right. you sick bastard. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... why thanks for your reply to my post. by the way, i never, never ever said that it was right to shoot "those kind" of babies. however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their "savior" (yeah right budy boy) because he had brain-washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth, even if means that they are to give up their lives for <<<<his>>>> cause. therefore it is davids fault and not the atf's who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u.s. i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am. | matthew r. hamilton | mhamilto@mcs.kent.edu | a.k.a | | cs/ physics major | 1499h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu | (the lawnmowerman) | | kent state university | 1299h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu | | | look here for future advice.quotes.sayings.jibberish.philosohy | 
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 <-> > but, do you knew how much organization is required to training a large <-> > group of poeple twice a year. just to try to get the same people <-> > every year, provide a basic training to new people so they can <-> > be integrated into the force, and find a suitable location, it <-> > requires a continually standing committee of organizers. <-> again, my response is, "so what?" is mr. rutledge arguing that since <-> the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support <-> such activity, and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from <-> doing so, that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba? on the <-> contrary, to anyone who understands the game, they have strengthened it. <no, i originally argued that the second amendment was "a little bit <and an anachronism." these prohibiting laws are examples why the are <an anachronism. after all, laws in made by representatives of the <people. these representatives of the people have already decided <that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some <cases. since these representatives feel an unconditional <interpretation is not wanted, then it is probable that they majority <of the people feel the same way. if this is so, it is an example <of the people using their power of government. if this is not <how the people feel, the people should stand up and state their wishes. wrong. neglecting that the government and media have bullshitted the people almost nonstop on this issue, constitutional limitations are there to prevent a 'tyrrany of the majority'. for example, a majority could vote that given ethnics have no rights, are not people, etc. and it would fly using the logic above. when government feels the constitution is not right for the times, there is a procedure called an amendment to the constitution. this is deliberately difficult, and cumbersome, to prevent abuse of those who decide to ignore the people, or impose unjust policies of a majority on a minority. a lynch mob is a majority, remember, outvoting the hangee. what the government is doing are violations, end-runs around the limitations on the government, probably because they know that the people would be very hard to convince that a good intention is behind tampering with the bill of rights. government propeganda on guns has been very strong and persistant, but not that strong. and it just shows how gullible the people have become to "i am from the government and am here to help you sort of line". we have been lied to, fed half truths, rigged stats, while the government knows their control laws have no effect on crime. they want a government monopoly on force, pure and simple. do you really want the government to be able to override constitutional limitations by a simple vote of a bunch of elitists (congresscritters)? i sure don't. the founding fathers sure as hell didn't, either. <> mox nix, mr. rutledge. you are the only one here claiming that the <-> rkba is dependent on the existence of a top-flight, well-regulated <-> militia. why this is a false assumption has already been posted a <-> number of times. <no, i simple stated that the people have a right to "join a well <organized militia." and i have also stated that a militia that <meets once or twice a year is clearly "well organized." and this <state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a "right" <to, is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated <by hamilton. you better read the senate subcommitte on the constitution regarding the second amendment, and a linguist's analisys of the second itself. in the meanwhile, show us some stuff to back up your assertions. and yes, i have the above mentioned documents (and more) online. pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 haven't seen this one on here yet, so here it goes: b. arely a. dequate, t. otally f. ***ed! i don't know about adequate, but it fits the acronym. =) andrew diederich diederic@spot.colorado.edu these opinions are only mine on alternate tuesdays. 
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 you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction? i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve gas on his/her property. that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons, and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road. i'll give you a little hint: see that manure pile in the farmer's field down the road? in the usa, that is a weapon of mass destruction, biological in nature, because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water. so, where do *you* draw the line? in the usa, the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal. care to draw a thinner line this time? < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 i just got through listening to the 10 o'clock news on channel 4 here in dallas. they trotted out a list of justifications produced by the atf after "months of investigation" for their raid. cnn just claimed he bought 104 "semi-automatic assault rifles". and they say koresh wasn't god-like... he managed to buy or build a collection of fully-automatic semi-automatic rifles... quite a feat, i would say. ;-) they're still making charges of "sexual abuse" and such, or course. nobody seems to have noticed that the treasury department has nothing to do with sex crimes. or maybe the feds have recently instituted a tax on sex crimes... yeah, that's why the batf was there, looking for unregistered *guns* ("this is my weapon, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for..."). i couldn't believe the junk on this list! for example, the bds were accused of stockpiling a bunch of "9mm and .223 ammunition that can be used in m15 and m16 assault rifles". imagine that--they had ammunition! i also heard that they're claiming to be cautious because of koresh's "heated ammunition stockpile". i seem to recall that smokeless powder tends to decompose at even moderate temperatures. i would be rather surprised, after a fire of that nature, if *any* of his "stockpile" is unexploded, or unburned. they also had aluminum dust! (yeah, it's a component of thermite, but so far i haven't heard that it's illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn furniture...) i seem to recall that aluminum powder is a common component of fireworks... the folks on rec.pyro could probably tell you. the only thing on the list that could conceivably have been illegal was an m-79 grenade launcher. (anybody know about this?) i think *anything* is legal if you have the proper license. if he had a "curios and relics" permit, i believe he could legally own handgrenades to go with his launcher. charles scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu dept of physics, michigan tech, houghton, mi 49931 "...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." thomas jefferson, 1821 
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 did anyone else notice how the question of what federal laws were violated was brushed aside? i'd like to know what laws were violated, and on what evidence the orignial batf warrants were based. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54523">
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 what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. seal team six should have handled it? delta force? the batf had more than enough equipment and men. they did not have good intel, but they did have poor planning. they fucked up. even in just the most basic military sense, they fucked up. excuses do not justify body counts. the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. and your excuses fall upon deaf ears when the same batf has shown shitty leadership despite more people, better weapons, and exclusive use of armor against their targets. batf is nothing more than a private army of the government. do the agents swear an oath, as i did, to uphold the constitution? you know, that document that stipulates the highest law of the land? if they do, they should be up for charges in a court of law. remember, the law? that's the whole reason for any of this. with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours. yeah, i've been related to many of them. this is flame-bait, right? i'm not paying your price. mind if i sight in my guns on your body? think of it as the price you have to pay that we may all live without fear of my making a stray shot. it's fine and dandy to revel in the other guy being the target and your supposed safety. in the military, we called this "chicken shit." leadership from the rear. the war on drugs, despite being a catchy term for nothing more than a continuation of policy since before this century, seems to have gotten you convinced that my rights aren't worth your good vibes. mind if i cut your net access, as well as access to any and all forms of expression? see, you make me nervous, what with you being able to influence so many. i'm sure you can see how this is the price we have to pay for freedom and liberty in this country, as well as a fair and unbiased judiciary. with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death 51 days later. mind if we include you in the body count? i'm sure we could all file it under "civic improvement" and your life wouldn't have been sacrificed in vain. if you like, you can will your estate to defecit reduction, too. now, when you learn how the law protects, or doesn't protect, everybody equally and how our collective boot may one day be on your collective throat, perhaps at that time you will mature enough to realize just what you're talking about and how serious this is. next time, include a smiley. while i hesitate to think that you could have meant this seriously, it deserved a small flame anyway. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 the fbi released large amounts of cs tear gas into the compound in waco. cs tear gas is a fine power. is cs inflammable. grain dust suspended in air can form an explosive mixture, will cs suspended in air form an explosive mix? could large quantities of cs have fueled the rapid spread of fire in the compound? no chance. if that cs ignited at all, it would have been quite similar to a grain bin explosion. explosion, i note. the entire compound would have been leveled, not merely burned. as there was no explosion, there was no cs ignition causing the fire. note: at five miles a decent grain elevator explosion will knock you on your butt and your ears will ring for days. i speak from experience here. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 how 'bout we embed the `card` in the forhead of everyones skull ? can't lose it without being already dead (ergo, no need for treatment). close, at birth we implant a smart chip just behind the ear under the skin but above the skull. we incase it in a hypo-allergenic high carbon content glass. this chip would be reprogrammed as we age with the pertinent medical, correctional, taxational data. behave yourself or we'll input it into your permenant record. you forgot the part about encasing it in a small shaped charge so that if anyone tries to tamper with it, it explodes and kills you. oh, and the shaped charge can be set off by remote control...but only if you get out of line. properly patriotic citizens have nothing to fear. tom swiss/tms@cs.umd.edu | "born to die" | keep your laws off my brain! "what's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - nick lowe this .sig contains no animal products and was not tested on animals. "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." -- the constitution of the united states of america 
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 something about how koresh had threatened to cause local problems with all these wepaons he had and was alleged to someone else will post more details soon, i'm sure. other news: sniper injures 9 outside mca buildling in l.a. man arrested--suspect was disgruntled employee of universal studios, which is a division of m.c.a. question: what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial? -case kim kim39@husc.harvard.edu 
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 i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full-scale military operations with explicit shoot-to-kill directives. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> i'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt. at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds. 
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 : failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it i : plain view. brent, i'm still waiting to see if there are any evidence of how the fire got started, so i'm not going to tell you who did it... as far as you keep talking about the davidians pouring kerosene all over, stop and *think* for a second if it is possible the stove or lamp was knocked over and started a fire, and the davidians were pouring water on it (wrong solution but i doubt i can do much better in their states of mind...) to try to put it out? by the way, just how far where you standing from the davidians when you saw them setting the place on fire? oh, in case you are new in town, microwave ovens doesn't work very well when there's no electricty. :-0 get some *facts* before you post next time! --f. chiu first the fbi said they saw two members of the cult start the fire-and the fbi never lies. second, the first started in opposite ends of the compound at the same time and thirdly, the fire spread too quickly for it not to be help without an accelerate. stevek@cellar.org (steve kraisler) the cellar bbs - (215) 539-3043 
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 the u.s. government's campaign of persecution and genocide against the branch davidians was a resounding success. heil clinton! heil reno! the gestapo is alive and well and living in washington, d.c. are you for real? people dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he's jesus deserve all they get anyway, he killed a few feds he's not the goddam hero here he's dead an' i'm happy!!!!! kevin, who agrees that david koresh was probably a first-rate nutcase but who firmly believes that the bill of rights guaranteed his his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is guilty of violating his civil rights and of 1st degree murder. ok, which small, under-represented-in-congress religious group are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their church with a rolled up copy of the constitution? i think i'm going to be sick now. . . %% john bell %%% dundee fc: %%% %% d.i.t. %%% league champions:61/62 runners up: 06/07 48/49 %%% %% dundee %%% league cup wins :51/52 52/53 runners up: 67/68 80/81 %%% %% scotland %%% scottish cup win:1910 runners up: 1925,1953,1964 %%% 
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 has anyone noticed or commented on the fact that so many of those who were willing, nay demanding, that we wait forever for mr hussein and iraq, that we use tremendously costly "sanctions", to avoid a loss of life, are now at the fore front of those clammoring that we should have smashed those "religious radicals" and we were wasting money allowing this stand off to go on ? how the worm turns when the sect changes. 
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 oldham@ces.cwru.edu (daniel oldham) babbles: what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. if they'd gone to the door and knocked on it to serve the warrant, like the sheriff had done 3 other times, they wouldn't have needed to have an initial assault. but then, herr klinton and attorney gen'l reno wouldn't have been able to have told such heroic stories about how they "protected" the rest of us from a group of people who kept to themselves, miles out in the prairie. the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. the batf needs to be disbanded. this out of control group of rambo wannabees is a danger to the republic. with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. well, i figure you're going to get flamed pretty badly by everybody else for this incredibly stupid statement, so i'll just let it pass for now. case western reserve, huh? do the feds know about that big stockpile of automatic weapons and crack you have in your house? are you the same daniel oldham that lives on orchard drive? just so they get the address right, that is... at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours. well, it used to be a great country. now i'm not so sure. i knew a few of those good people who died in wars; i was in viet nam. i can assure you, none of us fought to protect the right of the government to attack its own citizens with military force without provocation. (hint: serving a search warrant is not sufficient provocation to stage a military style assault on a religious group. at least not here in the us. maybe in iraq, or syria...) with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death 51 days later. this is a joke, right? or are they really letting fools like you into cwru now? too bad. used to be a good school. how'd you get in anyway, did your old man buy a new wing for the library? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54546">
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 [followups to talk.politics.guns only.] so, a person who keeps a gun at home is 43 times more likely to die, at home, from a gunshot than he or she is likely to kill an intruder. sounds like apples 'n' oranges to me. in any case, has anybody tried to make the obvious counter-study? what are the numbers for someone who does not keep a gun at home? that is, what is the ratio of dying-at-home-from-a-gunshot to killing-an-intruder, for people who do not keep guns in their homes? so, what are is the ratio of unarmed people shot to death in their homes v.s. unarmed people who kill intruders? is it worse than 6 to 1? inquiring minds want to know. i don't know this specific ratio, but i do have an earlier post that says a gun is 33 times more likely to defend someone (including the times where the gun isn't fired, just scares the perpetrator away) than it is to kill someone. (including self defense) the post is kind of long, but i'll be glad to dig it up and email it to anyone who asks. doug holland | doug holland | anyone who tries to take away my freedom | | holland@cs.colostate.edu | of speech will have to pry it from my | | pgp key available by e-mail | cold, dead lips!! | 
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 what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident. i believe the moves made were right and proper, but i still have some problems with some of the tactics. after watching the abc special on it tonight, as well as cnn and nightline, i question some of the atf and fbi actions. some< of? 1) could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb. 28th raid? yes, i think so and it has been reported as such. seems like a cowboy movie-style attack was needed for some reason.... 2) could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome. the answer is probably yes. but consider; what was the worst thing that could have happened if they waited? hint: whatever it was it could not have been any worse that what did happen. one other point, i'm no fan of janet reno, but i do like the way she had the "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility. seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue. but that statement of taking full responsibility is totally meaningless. what are the consequences for being fully responsible for this disaster? a note in your personnell file?? slick already called these people a bunch of crazy people and dismissed the idea she should resign. doesn't take any balls at all to take the responsibility. hell, at that rate >i< will take full responsibility for it. no skin off my nose.... |bob rahe, delaware tech&comm college | aids, drugs, abortion: - | |internet: bob@hobbes.dtcc.edu | - don't liberals just kill you?| |ci$: 72406,525 genie:bob.rahe |save whales; and kill babies? | 
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 i don't remember the figures exactly, but there were about 3500 deaths in texas in 1991 that was caused by guns..... this is more than those beeing killed in car-accidents! (yes, there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they're still *pretty* high right??) i also believe texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in usa...... and you'd be wrong about that too. note that texas isn't unique in this "more with-gun deaths than with-car deaths", but some of the other states where it happens have extremely strict gun laws. oops - so much for the "meaning". it isn't clear that the comparision means anything anyway as car accidents are unintentional while gun deaths aren't, but if we're going to make it, let's at least be honest. *i* should not suffer because of others.... we all agree on this one, but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we'll have to give up *some* of our 'freedom' (note the ''). give it up for what? gun control doesn't have any benefits, so it fails by this standard. do you have an insurance?? then you'll have to pay because of what others do... note that insurance gives me something in return - gun control doesn't. -what the hell is he trying to say ?? when you live in a society (usa are stilll counted as one...) you have to saccrifice. the question is how much. that's half the question - the rest is "and what do you get for your sacrifice". if the answer to the second question is "nothing", as it is for gun control, then we don't have to ask the first question because getting nothing means that no sacrifice is justified. 
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 anybody got arlen spectre's address? i want to write to him and thank him for showing the leadership to demand a congressional investigation into the waco mess. you are talking about the man who as a federal attorney did so much to frustrate the proper investigation of the jfk assassination by the house sub-committee on assassinations. fox and hen house??? please note that my above comment was not intended as a flame of ken's call for congressional leadership to conduct a proper investigation. it was merely to call attention to the hazard of having specter involved. if anyone took it that way, i apologize. joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. remember the alamo | truth is what the government chooses to remember waco | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. --jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54559">
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 i want to get involved in the fight to save our gun rights. but first, i need to get a little more educated. i've been reading all the magzines and books i can get my hands on, and sifting through hundreds of messages here in the can anyone tell me how/where to obtain this info? surely there has to be a way to obtain copies of anti-gun legislation from those *&%$#@'s in washington. the house document room can be reached at +1 202 225 3456. you need to have the number of the document you want (e.g. hr1036) and they'll be happy to send it to you. tell them if it's going to be a big stack, because the surly sounding guy who answers is scrawling in a really awful hand on the back of the envelope that will come and will run out of room quickly if you don't tell him. the senate document room is too important to deal with the likes of you and i, and will answer requests from off the hill only by mail. laird p. broadfield lairdb@crash.cts.com ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb hi! i'm a shareware signature! send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual! 
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 mark 'mark' sachs <mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu>, representing the students for oh? then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places? in particular, three different places where there were no apv's? well, i only saw it start in one place. a tank punched a hole in a wall, and as it withdrew flames came out and spread quickly in the direction that a 30+ mph wind was blowing. i saw a diagram in usa today yesterday, and fires started at 2 of the 3 holes that the tanks made. a terrible, negligent and if the government did start the fire, then why weren't people trying to get out of the compound? maybe they couldn't. i've often marvelled at how people could get burned alive in the upstairs of a 2 story house on fire, but it happens all the time. what if they were in sealed rooms, trying to avoid the gas, and didn't know about the fire until it surrounded them? remember the israelis hiding in sealed rooms during desert storm to avoid gas-bearing scuds? cripes, mark, are you really a college student? maybe you ought to stop worrying about increased beverage access and start clearing your head. ever heard of questioning authority? and besides... oh, i don't know why i'm even bothering. ok, i'll buy that. you _do_ seem totally clueless... i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous, heavily-armed religious cult, despite much evidence to the wellllll.... they weren't murderous. they'd never harmed or even threatened anybody until they were attacked by a paramilitary force using military weapons and hardware. and as far as "evidence", what are you talking about? everything the feds have said they've retracted practically as soon as they get questioned in detail about it. maybe you and your increased beverage access buddies, sitting around the bar slurring stuff like "they shoulda killed 'em all 51 days ago" don't feel that way, but then you're probably one of those people still saying about klinton "give the guy a chance, we don't even know what he's gonna do! (burp) thought experiment: suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration. what would your answer be then? would you still prefer to believe the cultists? (no, i don't really expect a response to that challenge.) no problem, you don't have any questions that scare any of us. most of our minds are apparently more developed than yours. the answer is: *yes!* in a f*cking heartbeat! thought experiment: would you be mindlessly down on your knees with your mouth open, blissfully sucking up anything the feds said if bush were the president? what, no comeback? (ok, go ahead, say it. "read my lips, no new taxes" %^p ) but then again, that is how mr. clinton was elected, by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office. um, isn't that how all politicians are elected? not in such a great degree. bush broke one promise, maybe two (taxes/guns) and we held him accountable for it. of course, it took him the better part of 4 years to do it; slick's only been in office 101 days and he's broken lots of them. anddd... i imagine he'll also be held accountable for that. (i can just see the campaign buttons now: "abc - anybody but clinton") so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people? are they, like, just plain evil, or what? did they just wake up one day, stretch and yawn, and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day? i'm eager to know. hmmm.... apparently you just got here. nobody's claiming that it was anything but a stupid mistake by a bunch of incompetent public employees who normally don't get this kind of scrutiny when the mess up. and as far as how they picked the davidians, who knows? maybe they figured that nobody'd care about such a politically incorrect group as a bunch of fundies out on the texas prairie. maybe they figured they'd just go in there and run roughshod over the bds during their religious services (which was the reason the feds gave for the timing of the raid) rather than running into resistance. maybe they knew that the bds weren't anywhere near as violent as the feds' spin doctors are trying to tell the public. maybe they were afraid to try this kind of thing on the crips and bloods. maybe it was because the atf's budget is up for approval and they seem to favor doing something dramatic whenever that is the case. of course, their reasoning doesn't matter, only what they did, and this time, people are just paying more attention to it. and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader? not if you mean that stupid "don't stop thinking about tomorrow"... how is he on diabolical laughter? all i've ever heard is hillary's diabolical giggle. waffle man seems to have lost his sense of humor... does he look good in a cape? don't know, never seen him in one. he probably looks fat and puffy faced, just like in a suit. i saw him in the rose garden the other day, and i couldn't get over how much he is starting to look like teddy kennedy. these things must be investigated. you first. don't worry, these things will be investigated. now go back to your beer, you dimwit.... * i've heard a lot of people compare bill clinton to jimmy carter, and * * i'd like to go on record as saying that i don't think that it's fair. * * jimmy carter was a veteran, and he had personal character. and even * * though i can't agree with carter's policies, i always believed that * * he was telling the truth, as best he understood it. i can't say * * that for the fat cat... * ken whitehead (kdw@odin.icd.ab.com) 
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 seriously. there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver. intellectually, think of the glock as a very high cap revolver. ignoring stove pipes, misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you, that is. on a da revolver, you get another try on a misfire. on a pistol where the trigger does not cock the hammer, like a jennings, or an astra m400, or a glock, a misfire requires the slide be cycled to get the gun to rather than a high capacity revolver, think of a glock as an astra m400 with no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull. jim del vecchio 
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 i called the texas bill tracking people (800/253-9693) again today regarding hb 1776 -- concealed carry. well, it was supposed to come up for a vote this past wednesday, but the bill got sent back to the public safety committee. the psc gave it a favorable rating again, and the bill must now be scheduled for debate by the calendars committee again. daryl biberdorf n5gjm d-biberdorf@tamu.edu + sola gratia + sola fide + sola scriptura 
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 re: is "john q. public with a gun" protected? it's worth noting that us vs. miller sustained miller's conviction of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon. no, they noted that no one had claimed that it was a proper militia weapon (despite having been used in at least two wars). this was true, since neither miller nor his lawyer appeared before the court. did they or did they not sustain miller's conviction? i don't have the text of the case handy. miller was convicted of owning a sawed-off shotgun and not paying the nfa '34 tax. snatches of the court's decision: the second amendment was intended to "assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such a force [the militia]... it must be interpreted and applied with that end in view." the militia includes "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense." however, regarding sawed-off shotguns, "certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense." "judicial notice" is the term of art here -- it meant that no such evidence had been formally presented. this is different from claiming that they had ruled that it wasn't. yes, shotguns had been used in wwi, the spanish-american war, and the us civil war. that was not in question. the possession of a sawed-off shotgun was, i.e., a weapon altered to improve concealibility. i'm not talking about plain shotguns in war -- i'm talking about short- barrelled ("sawed-off") shotguns in war. compare revolutionary war blunderbusses; luparas in the spanish-american war; and trench-cleaners in ww i. they were also put to good use by us soldiers in ww ii, not to mention being invaluable to "tunnel rats" in vietnam, but, of course, "miller" took place in 1939. therefore, us vs. miller supports limited government regulation of don't go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by the consequences that you find at the end of it -- mainly, that the law-abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia purpose, from handguns to sawed-off shotguns and fully automatic weapons. that, in fact, is what this decision says. you are free to produce evidence that i'm not willing to abide with all the implications of this. here is my quandary: you seem to be arguing that certain types of guns fall outside the scope of the second. this isn't a useful argument unless you believe that some significant gun or class of gun belongs in that class. i think we both agree that zip guns probably aren't protected. maybe we also both agree that all the weapons that random state governments have been banning or trying to ban because they have "no sporting purpose" and "no provate citizen would ever need these guns" do fall under the protection of the second. so, given that damn near any gun of any practical utility is or has at some time been used by the military, even if only for marksmanship training purposes, i need to understand why you are intent on pressing this point, arguing that that something is not protected by the second. just because i don't whole-heartedly endorse the nra position does not mean that i oppose the rkba. this attitude is what makes the nra often, what makes someone unpopular is what other people say about him. how much did any of us fear or abhor the branch davidians six months ago? how many of us feared or abhorred saddam hussein five years ago? cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms. clearly and unequivocally, without infringement. unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state. if last part of it is taken along, it follows what you have said. the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment. the second amendment is: a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security ^^^^^^^ militia of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear ^^^^^ state arms, shall not be infringed. ^^^^ arms you didn't even get the capitalization correct! try reading usca on the constitution, or get any other correct version of the this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me. according to the federalist paper's, a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations. perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers!! james madison, federalist paper 46: "besides the advantage of being armed, which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." james madison, i annals of congress 434, 8 june 1789: "the right of the people to keep and bear... arms shall not be infringed. a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." alexander hamilton, federalist paper 29 (on the organization of the militia): "little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year." alexander hamilton, federalist paper 29 (speaking of standing armies): "... if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens." but *surely* hamilton and madison didn't mean the people when they said "people", right? that's why the amendment refers to "the right of the militia"?... ;-) your average 17-45 year old male does not fall into the definition. you're right, the militia consists of all able bodied males (and probably females under current interpretation). therefore most members of the militia, the one the every gun advocate refers to, are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to "well organized", it says "well regulated". i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how _well regulated_ i am. mentioned in the amendment. if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms, why did it specificly mention a "well organized militia" in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms? correct. that's why the right is reserved to the people. and that was to insure the people could form a "well regulated militia", not a "well organized militia". it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part. if so, why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument? any moron can set h_bar = c = 1... instead of a separate sentence? oh, i see what your question is; why don't you read the federalist papers?! james madison, federalist paper 41 (regarding the "general welfare" clause): "nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars." but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the 2nd? he only wrote it. the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state. the federalist paper's mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state. all these examples are actions of a very organized force, not some john q. public with a gun. that's obviously because you've never actually *read* the federalist all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people's right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed. that is people have the right to join a well organized militia. this well organized militia will, of course, provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics. these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms. can't read, huh? show me where the document says "well organized militia". lastly, reading through the federalist paper's on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias. one reason stated is the protection from a standing army. these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every 17-45 year old male and female not in the armied forces. that is *exactly* why every person should be allowed to own *any* weapon currently in use in the armed forces. reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army. well, the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us. but the major reason is to protect against that very same army. it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment, to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary, is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age. maybe its time to re-think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately. abraham lincoln, first inaugural address, march 4, 1861: "this country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." rep. elbridge gerry of massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the second amendment, i annals of congress at 750, 17 august 1789: "what, sir, is the use of a militia? it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ... whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." so now we know which category mr. rutledge is in; he means to destroy our liberties and rights. charles scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu dept of physics, michigan tech, houghton, mi 49931 "...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." thomas jefferson, 1821 the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms. clearly and unequivocally, without infringement. unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state. if last part of it is taken along, it follows what you have said. the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment. the second amendment is: a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security ^^^^^^^ militia of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear ^^^^^ state arms, shall not be infringed. ^^^^ arms you didn't even get the capitalization correct! try reading usca on the constitution, or get any other correct version of the there are several ways in which one can choose to intrepret any constitutational issue : (a) original intent (b) subjectively intrepreted accordiong to political whims of the day. if we use original intent as the basis for intrepreting the constitution, it is clear that the founding fathers intended that the individual citizen be allowed to bear arms similar to those used by soldiers of the day. for references, i cite : - federalist papers - "the embarassing second ammendment", yale law review, prof. stanford levinson [sorry, i don't have the date handy] prof levinson sought to prove that the 2nd ammendment did not convey an individual right, but concluded that it did, hence the "embarassing" in his title. - report of the subcomittee on the consititution, united states sendate, 97th congress, second session february 1982. - u.s. vs. verguido urguidez (supreme court case in recent years). although this case did not pertain to firearms, justice rhenquist notes that the term "the people" is a term of art conveying individual rights, and specifically cited several used, 2nd ammentment included, in his opinion. - title 10, u.s. code. this states that all males between the ages of 18 & 45 not part of the organized militia, and all female officers of the national guard are part of the unorganized militia. feel free to cite any scholarly and historical references you have to support your position. i could go on a greater length with my personal proof by assertion, however, such a technique would carry no more or less weight that your dubious proofs by assertion. 
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 note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that duke was leading he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy. so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting i'd hardly call that "giving up his chance to be vice president of the us"; the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil. still, it does imply that he doesn't want to be associated with duke. exactly, after all he was in the same party, probably just didn't want the bad press that being directly associated with duke would bring. conversely, is his disdain for david duke supposed to make us ideolize him? i mean a stand against neo-nazism ... whoa! now that's progressive! come on. i certainly know that i would refuse and openly denounce my vice presidency if it meant putting him in control. --stephen white | "live simply that others may simply live" --mohandas k. gandhi | 
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 i can't speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government, one can see the relentless movement toward one world government. the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism, nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues....our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty. ...and i'm sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation-state. imagine, the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year! times change, technology changes, viable forms of social organization change. while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one, it's a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide. it's much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are acceptable than it iss to lament the passing of the old forms. 
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 this was posted to the firearms-politics mailing list. hi folks; wednesday marked day 2, the beginning of the trial. opening statements were given by both the prosecution and the defense, each side presenting its version of what happenned last august. the prosecution argued that weaver and his family moved to idaho in 1983 anticipating a battle with the "evil" federal government. the prosecution alleges that weaver sold federal agents "sawed off" shotguns and later failed to appear for trial: despite repeated "good faith" efforts to get weaver to surrender peacefully, weaver refused. the shootout erupted when weaver discovered agents on a surveillance mission and began firing. according to the prosecution, three people were taking an "offensive action" against an fbi helicopter when an fbi sniper killed vicki weaver. the defense argued that weaver and his family moved to northern idaho in 1983 to practice their religion in peace. they wanted simply to be left alone. weaver was induced by federal agents to sell the short-barrelled shotgun (and did not, as the prosecution alleged, want to become a "regular supplier"). the defense also argued that the federal government sought to arrest weaver when he wouldn't become an informant [it is not specified explicitly, but i assume that this is a reference to the white separatist angle of the story. we'll know more as things develop]. the failure to appear in court happenned because weaver was given an incorrect court date and then indicted before that date. the shootout occurred when federal agent arthur roderick killed weaver's dog that was in proximity to weaver's son, samuel. weaver then fired in self-defense. in the ensuing battle, federal agent william degan was killed (when his gun was later found, there were 7 .223 cases nearby and the gun was on semi-automatic: however, agents were near the body for an extended period of time and could have played with the select-fire - this will have to be more fully explained). finally, the defense claims that vicki weaver was only going to "look at the body" [not recover?] of her son when she was cut-down by an fbi sniper. prosecution quote: "weaver wanted that confrontation, and he made that confrontation." -- asst. u.s. attorney kim lindquist defense quote: "the evidence in this case is going to show that this is a case where randy weaver and kevin harris are charged with crimes they didn't commit in order to cover crimes that the government did commit." -- gerry spence [nice soundbite!] notes: the _idaho statesman_ claims that weaver supporters heeded a call from spence not to repeat yesterday's protests outside the courthouse. however, the local nbc affiliate again had footage on the 10:00 news with 5 supporters including "tim" again. "tim" claimed he was a skinhead, who were "ordinary, working class people." he also claimed he was for "white pride, not white power." outside the courthouse the television crew had an impromptu interview with bo gritz, who charged that the neo-nazi protestors are exactly what the government wants to smear randy weaver. in an affiliated article carried in the _idaho statesman_, about a dozen lawyers were among the 70 or so people packed into the courthouse. these lawyers were present to watch gerry spence in action, and to perhaps learn something from him. some tidbits: spence flatly told the jurors that he and his son kent were volunteering their time to represent weaver because they believed in him. spence, during his 90-minute opening statement, repeatedly walked behind weaver and placed his hands on the defendants shoulders (weaver broke down and cried during the recounting of his wife's death), and spence compared the "sawed off" shotgun to driving 56 mph when the limit was 55 (another good one!). today (thursday, april 15th) the prosecution was scheduled to begin presenting evidence. * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * 
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 this was posted to the firearms-politics mailing list. hi folks; thursday, april 15 marked day 3 of the trial. this day marked the first testimony of the trial. deputy u.s. marshal larry cooper took the stand for the prosecution. the short version is that his testimony was consistent with the opening statements for the prosecution. cooper testified that he had arrived in spokane (washington) on august 17, 1992 to participate in a surveillance operation with five other deputies near the weaver cabin. the team was using night vision equipment for surveillance, and split up into two teams of three people. the six later met at an observation point above the cabin. after this, deputies cooper, william degan, and arthur roderick began a descent to scout further possible surveillance sites. cooper told the court that roderick threw two large rocks into a gully to see, "whether the [weaver family] dogs would respond." striker, the weaver's yellow lab, started toward them barking loudly. roderick led the three in a run from the area. they ran through some dense woods into an open area [called the "fern field"] with the dog in pursuit. by this time, kevin harris and samuel weaver had joined the chase. the surveillance team had reached a y in the road: cooper decided that they should take cover in the woods because otherwise they would be an easy target and might be "shot in the back." as degan reached the y, he spotted randy weaver coming down the road from the cabin ahead. weaver was startled but did not fire. at this moment, striker reached degan, and cooper had to "fend him off with his gun." [it is unclear whether this means he clubbed the dog or shot the dog]. both cooper and degan then took cover in the woods. according to cooper, kevin harris and samuel weaver continued walking down the road, apparently not noticing the two. after they had passed by on the road, degan got up on one knee, raised his gun, and shouted, "stop! u.s. marshal!" harris then "...brought the weapon around at hip level and fired. he didn't bring the weapon up to eye level. i saw bill's arm going back, and i knew he had been hit." cooper fired at harris, and harris went down. cooper then brought his weapon to bear on samuel, but did not fire. at this point, cooper then heard two shots to his right. samuel weaver looked in the direction of the shots, yelled, "you son of a bitch!" and ran toward them. cooper then realized that shots were coming at him from directly ahead, so he fired a three-round burst at the cabin. at this point he then saw samuel weaver running toward the cabin. when cooper reached degan, he placed his first two fingers on degan carotid artery, counted two or three beats, and then his heart stopped. shortly thereafter, roderick and the other three marshals joined him. they then all heard a large burst of gunfire from the area around the cabin. on cross-examination, david nevin questioned the point of throwing rocks into the gulley, asking, "you wanted to lure that dog out so you could shoot that dog, didn't you?" nevin also pointed out that in last september's testimony, cooper had claimed that he spotted weaver after the dog had left him. cooper claimed that he had gone over the events in his head and decided that thursday's account was correct. nevin continued the cross-examination by asking what cooper would have done had an armed man dressed in full camouflage jumped out of the woods at him [no answer was available]. friday, april 16 marks continued cross-examination of cooper. notes: there was no coverage of protestors. * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * 
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 can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? bullets go flying every where. imho, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines went up. a minor technical point: unless a cartridge is contained (for example in the chamber of a gun) when it goes off, very little of interest happens..... quoting hatcher's notebook: the sporting arms and ammunition manufactures' institute reported a demonstration made by taking a large quantity of metallic cartridges and shotgun shells and burning them in a fire of oil- soaked wood. the cartridges and shells exploded from time to time, but there was no general explosion or throwing off of bullets or shot to any distance. throughout the test the men conducting it remained within 20 ft. of the fire without being injured in any way..... the material of which the cartridge and shells are composed will usually not fly more than a few feet. in tests conducted by the national rifle association, both rifle and pistol cartridges were exploded by heat under an ordinary corrugated pasteboard carton, and neither fragments of the cartridge cases nor bullets penetrated the cardboard. any scientists care to try this out in their kitchen? :-) here goes: more than a few years back (if you were born that year, you can legally drink), we tried it out. we found an 8 ft. deep cistern that we lined with some 10 ft. 2x6s. we put a large can (one of those industrial sized pork'n beans cans) stuffed with oily rags and scraps of wood in the bottom. after lighting the fire, we lowered a box of .38 spc. swcs into the can. we heard pops, one solid bang and several "fizzzz shussss". after we thought the excitment was over, we boldly climbed down to find that none of the bullets had left the can, several of the shells were lieing around the bottom of the well and the boards had all died of smoke inhalation. and 5 or 6 of the shells still had live primers! dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 i have not made up my mind about waco, but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of thier own. they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken. kinda reminds you of the bds, doesn't it? go to hell. i'm no "government [-] following fanatic." your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance. what were they supposed to do? just let him be? fuck him. fuck the atf, too. they should've done it right the first time. joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu this is, apparently, what passes for intelligent discourse at trinity. joe "fbi cultist" kusmierczak gets angry when its pointed out that the fbi has told him is a lie, the mounting evidence is that they've lied about almost every detail of 4/19 except that they were there. what can you expect of cultists like him, somebody oughtta burn him out, and if he's trapped, well, good riddance! right joe? + wayne j. warf -- wwarf@ucs.indiana.edu -- i speak for myself only + |*clinton*gore*cia*fbi*dea*assassinate*bomb*wod*bor*atf*irs*resist*nsa* | |*christian*god*satan*apocalypse*zog*nazi*socialist*communist*explosive*| +*fundamentalist*revolution*nsc*federal reserve*constitution*gold*fema* + 
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 if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the burning building? could be a lot of reasons, james... we won't know until the survivors are allowed to speak for themselves, rather than through an fbi spokesman. some of the survivors have been "interviewed" on tv as they were going to or returning from court. they basically said, no way was there any kind of suicide pact or attempt. remember the texas holocaust. 
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 yeah, as information trickles in... funny how that works... funny, yeah, funny how you didn't wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of "facts" before proclaiming the bd's burned themselves to death. if you won't believe anything the government says, and the press is not reliable according to the same logic, then what do you base your statements on? wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia? funny, brent, but so far we have heard two versions of the "facts:" 1) what the government says. this includes what the government says that two survivors have said. 2) what koresh's lawyer (who was actually inside the compound) says, including what he says that most of the survivors have said. strange, but they seem to disagree in most important particulars. if anyone has actually seen news reports of any of the survivors speaking first-hand, feel free ot pitch in. i may have missed it. but my money is that their story will sound a hell of a lot like case 2, and not at all like case 1. since neither side would be particularly interested in telling the truth, you have to weigh the 'facts' given by each yourself, and weigh it with the newsreporting if you care. many cult members will probably side with the attorney, and if he is lying, change their stories to match his. and if the feds also lie, the cult members who become disillusioned will change their stories to match the feds. neither sides are interested in the truth. the media is more interested, but usually either don't have the time to get it straight or tie themselves to the ratings and deliberately distort. for me, though, the black soot billowing outside the compound added with how fast the fire spread ponted to *someone* dousing large parts of the compound with some sort of gasoline or fire-starter. i doubt the feds did that as they were more interested in arresting vernon. the real unbalanced one (at least the one that lost his cool) was vernon, so i figured that he was more likely to do it (after all he was jesus being persecuted by the authorities, and had followers to hold onto, so made the decision. he and his followers also probably felt that they were rocketing to heaven by doing this stuff). thsi conclusion, i came to after umpteen million hours of listening to npr and other radio shows (i always have the radio going when i am in my office on some innocuous talk-show or news program as background noise). <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 : in article <1r6p8oinn8hi@clem.handheld.com>, jmd@cube.handheld.com (jim de : > i have not made up my mind about waco, but there sure seems to be a group of : > devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that : > government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of thier : > own. they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken. : > kinda reminds you of the bds, doesn't it? : > jim : go to hell. i'm no "government [-] following fanatic." your sweeping : generalizations evince your own ignorance. what were they supposed to do? : just let him be? yes. given the history of the bd's and the fact that they were just peacefully minding their own business, i think this would have been the correct course of action in the very beginning. everything that followed was a direct result of the major media fuck-up that the batf perpetrated just over 51 days ago. :fuck him. fuck the atf, too. they should've done it right : the first time. : joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu yep, no doubt about it. they should have just bombed those kooks right from the git-go. yeah, sure! so much for any resemblence to an america that abides by the constitution. so much for feeling safe in your home. so much for any of the rights enumerated in the bill of rights being upheld. why bother? they just get in the way of an effective government. that is, a government of the elite, by the elite, for the elite. joe, attitudes like yours frighten me. you have very few facts about what actually happened, and what information you do have came from a single source, the fbi/batf. yet you are more than happy to pronounce the bd's guilty-as-charged based on this one-sided testimony. scary! keith marchington 
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 well, after 2 days of hearing that 3 of the bd bodies had been shot in the head (horrors! another jonestown! crazed cultists! child abusers! whackos in waco!), last night the medical examiner was on tv and was pretty vehement in denying that any of them had bullet wounds... he seemed just a tad upset at the feds for having spread that rumor. (aw, gee, he shouldn't be so hard on them; they're just practicing the new principle of "flexible reality" that their big boss has implemented.) before long, i think all the kneejerk government apologists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they were misled. two notes of interest from texas: the tarrant couonty me (who is doing the autopsies) is well known for rendering judgements that are contrary to the police view. he presented evidence a few years ago that a man who police said was pointing a gun at them actually had his hands in the air. this does not bode well for the boys in black. the texas dept. of public saftey and the texas rangers have no great love for the atf. i have heard them referred to as "those fucking cowboys". the dps was totally squeezed out of the bd operation and resented being left as "traffic cops". atf now has two strikes against them. finally (i guess that makes three notes), rumour from waco is that four atf agents were stopped by four waco police cars and a dps trooper after one of the flashed "an automatic weapon" at a cop. lots of pissed of cops. and you wonder why there were so few cops really cheering on the atf. dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 or the cultists...) i think i'll quote the bbc quoting (actually voice interview) one of the two british survivors. he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall/roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan. if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the burning building? in this case, it was unimportant as to who set the fire. the davidians would have burned no matter what, especially if the batf/fbi set the fire as this would make the beseiged martyrs to vernon howell and therefore rocket to heaven. a few comments from the remaining davidians scattered throughout the country seemed to confirm this theory (one cult member said that she wished that she had been there, and that now she would have to wait for vernon to return for them. she actually seemed upset that she did not burn with them). while i think that vernon started the fire (his followers anyway), it is incidental to their reaction. <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the burning building? okay, james, tell you what: i'll but you in a building with 90 other people. i'll put you in a highly tense situation. i'll subject you to sleep deprivation, remove your utilities, march tanks back in forth in front of you, play recordings of tortured rabbits at high volume, shine bright lights in your windows, threaten to attack you at any time, and cut you off from the outside world, all for weeks at a time. then, i'll begin to smash in the building you're in, destroying passages and stairs and spreading debris everywhere. at the same time, i'll pump in massive quantities of nasty tear gas, for six hours. stop it!!!! enough!!! i'm out of there! i mean, i'm a relatively sane person. god knows i'm weak and will forgive me. but i'm not stupid enough to stay in this place any longer. i want out!!! you'll be holed up in a small area with 90 sweaty people on a hot day. then the building will fill with smoke and become a inferno. 90 people in a small room will try to leave with you. and jim, if you don't make it out, won't you agree that it must be because you wanted to die? besides, nine people *did* successfully flee the fire. yeah, and at least one person ran back in. sounds like a personal choice to me. religious fanaticsm, and a beleive that dying in the 'defense' of your beliefs, is probably at the core of what happened in waco. we in the west tend to disregard fanaticsm of the type displayed by many moslem fundamentalist groups who see nothing wrong with dying for their beliefs/convictions. i suspect that this same type of fanaticsm was displayed by the bds. but we'll probably never know... 
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 |>xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com misc.legal:62088 talk.politics.guns:56997 alt.activism:43746 |>path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utcsri!relay.cs.toronto.edu!neat.cs.toronto.edu!cs.toronto.edu!quoctp |>newsgroups: misc.legal,talk.politics.guns,alt.activism |>from: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (quoc tuan pham) |>subject: re: waco: clinton press conference, part 1 |>message-id: <93apr22.234553edt.47633@neat.cs.toronto.edu> |>organization: department of computer science, university of toronto |>references: <1993apr21.021301.25113@r-node.hub.org> |>date: 23 apr 93 03:46:24 gmt |>lines: 3 |>did anyone notice that clinton was smiling and making jokes just before |>this press conference? considering the number of people killed, this |>seems very inappropriate to me. or, did anyone notice that when clinton referred to the davidians as 'religious fanatics' that a round of spontaneous applause burst forth from the reporters ? to me this was not only in poor taste, but it showed the media's bias and hostility to anyone not of the politically correct stripe. no wonder they have been cheerleading for the kgbatf and the fbi during this whole affair. "it [collectivism vs individualism] is an ancient conflict. men have come close to the truth, but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another. civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. the savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. civilization is the process of setting man free from men." -- ayn rand : 'roark's speech from the _fountainhead_' i don't speak for my company. we hire the 'politically correct' to do that. 
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 i'd appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions: the brady bill was in the news throughout 1992 but what actually happened to it in congress? did bush veto it? if so, when? the brady bill passed the house in 1992, but failed to reach a vote in the senate. as such, it never reached bush. (sarah brady's condemnation not-withstanding). i have a joint house-senate conference committe report (i.e., crime bill) for the 102rd congress which contains a "brady bill -- 7 day waiting period" within it. i believe it just died and never came up for a vote in either it'll probably pass the house again, and will probably pass the senate if they can get it to a vote. whether of not they'll be busy with other things will be the question. they got four years of clinton's support to pass it. larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 the branch davidians were not violent and were not planning to start when the bd compound was assaulted by the atf the bd did fire back. but they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the atf to care for their wounded. the bd even released the atf agents they captured. it is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the atf medical attention that the bd were not looking for trouble. if the bd were violent they would have held the atf agents as hostages. they would not have released them like they did. if they had kept the agents hostage they could have used them as bargening chips for medical attention etc. a big thing is being made of the bd collection of weapons but no one has shown that they had any plans to use them. it is also apparent that the bd did not have any military training. if they had, they could have dug bunkers and trenches and increased their fortifications. they could have shot out the lights and speakers. it appears that the bd were not violent, they shot back at the attacking atf agents out of panic. there were shots fired on the last day but they were in response to the fbi attack on the compound with armor. all the violence in waco was initiated by the federal agents, not the rod anderson n0nzo | the only acceptable substitute boulder, co | for brains is silence. rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu | -solomon short- satellite n0nzo on ao-16 | 
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 btw, if i screwed up bad enough to get someone hurt/killed, my co, the pms, probably the brigade commander, and possibly the region commander could all expect a good amount of heat, possibly including reassignment or seperationfrom service. certainly the pms would not be promotable, and would shortly thereafter be asked to retire. this is called accountability. if my pms knew beforehand about the activities in which a person was killed, he would be nailed for failing to ensure that proper safety measures were taken. if he didn't know , he would be nailed for improper supervision. can we hold the president of the us to lower standards than his subordinates? after all, he was briefed on the fbi raid. he could have asked how they intended to flush the bd's out... the president is not competent to plan or judge the planning of such a raid, nor does he need to be. his job is to set basic policies and manage the people under him. if clinton instructed reno to preserve lives, and if she confirmed that the plan for the raid was a safe as could be, then he did his job. the president should not involve himself in the minor details of these kinds of operations. this sort of micromanagement only leads to disaster, as was demonstrated so well in vietnam. but the raid went bad: over 80 civilians have been killed in a controntation with u.s. authorities. now clinton enters the picture in a big way. will clinton start an investigation? or will he try to squash any attempt to investigate? is he a responsible leader? or is he only interested in protecting the image of his administration? we'll all find out as this unfolds. mark draughn | <draughn@iitmax.iit.edu> or <sysmark@iitvax> on bitnet ----------------+ academic computing, illinois institute of technology +1 312 567 5962 | 10 w. 31st street, chicago, illinois 60616 
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 from psc@sei.cmu.edu (peter capell) on rec.martial-arts... i'm sure such weapons have been developed. our society does not, however, condone their possession or use. actually, joe, i wrote the above. peter was responding to my article. i'm actually rather confused by your post. i suppose i didn't make myself clear, cause you seem to have gotten exactly the opposite impression from what i intended. i suppose "the authorities" might have been a better term than "society". carry and use a firearm in many parts of the country (certainly the parts i live in), and expect, at the very least, to have an awful lot of explaining to do. and there is also appears to be a trend in society at large that actively opposes what many see as their right to defend themselves. in a few other parts of our society, handguns are banned or so restricted as to be practically unavailable to the law- abiding citizen for self-defense outside the home. funny, though, how the criminals in such places continue to have a lush supply of guns and no compunctions about using them. imho, you don't need to be either a political philosopher or a crime victim to realize that there's a flaw in the gun- grabbers' logic. you're welcome to your ho, too, the first amendment being as important as the second, but please don't let your obvious good intentions be subverted by insupportable generalities about something as big and diverse as us society. my only intention was to comment that the existence of suitable weapons of self defense doesn't mean you'll escape a whole shitload of trouble should you be forced to use them. or by the naive hope that making gun possession a crime will give pause to someone who would be a criminal anyway. i made no such statements, nor do i have such a naive hope or outlook. wishing you peace and the wherewithal to defend yourself if others' thoughts are not that kindly, that's all i want: the opportunity to leave in peace, or to have the means to defend myself when that in not possible. i *think* we agree on this issue. i guess my position didn't survive the transition from cognition to ascii. garry hodgson a slow winter day at&t bell labs a night like forever garry@alice.att.com sink like a stone att!alice!garry float like a feather 
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 besides, nine people *did* successfully flee the fire. yeah, and at least one person ran back in. sounds like a personal choice to me. religious fanaticsm, and a beleive that dying in the 'defense' of your beliefs, is probably at the core of what happened in waco. religious fanaticism? people try to get back in all the time when their homes are afire. firefighters often have to restrain them. they want to rush back in in an effort to save things-- old photos, keepsakes, stamp collections, cash, books, jewelery, pets, their wives and husbands, their babies... 
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 i thought that the clipper chip that was posted to t.p.g (sorry, i lost the original post) was a joke. i really did. i didn't believe it for a second. but on the way to work this morning, i heard about it on npr. no joke. here's another copy for you to save. npr, hmmm? did they mention the part about "the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public." ...? newsgroups: talk.politics.guns path: dg-rtp!psinntp!uunet!news.claremont.edu!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!uiboise.idbsu.edu!blh message-id: <9304191630.aa03993@inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com> x-received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id aa21120; mon, 19 apr 93 09:30:51 -0700 x-received: by inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com; id aa03993; mon, 19 apr 93 09:30:17 -0700 x-received: by uiboise.idbsu.edu (16.6/16.2) id aa01185; sun, 18 apr 93 11:50:14 -0600 x-to: talk.politics.guns.usenet x-mailer: elm [revision: 66.25] lines: 112 although the subject matter of this re-posting is not directly related to talk.politics.guns, i believe that the information here will be of interest to a large number of readers. especially considering our latest batf escapade. message-id: <c5lgaz.250@dove.nist.gov> sender: news@dove.nist.gov organization: national institute of standards & technology distribution: na lines: 94 note: the following was released by the white house today in conjunction with the announcement of the clipper chip encryption technology. fact sheet public encryption management the president has approved a directive on "public encryption management." the directive provides for the following: advanced telecommunications and commercially available encryption are part of a wave of new computer and communications technology. encryption products scramble information to protect the privacy of communications and data by preventing unauthorized access. advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology to rapidly and precisely handle a high volume of communications. these advanced telecommunications systems are integral to the infrastructure needed to ensure economic competitiveness in the information age. despite its benefits, new communications technology can also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance. sophisticated encryption can have this effect in the united states. when exported abroad, it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests. in the past, it has been possible to preserve a government capability to conduct electronic surveillance in furtherance of legitimate law enforcement and national security interests, while at the same time protecting the privacy and civil liberties of all citizens. as encryption technology improves, doing so will require new, innovative approaches. in the area of communications encryption, the u. s. government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard, but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption. the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization. to assist law enforcement and other government agencies to collect and decrypt, under legal authority, electronically transmitted information, i hereby direct the following action to be taken: installation of government-developed microcircuits the attorney general of the united states, or her representative, shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the u.s. government-developed key-escrow microcircuits in their products. the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public. all appropriate steps shall be taken to ensure that any existing or future versions of the key-escrow microcircuit are made widely available to u.s. communications hardware manufacturers, consistent with the need to ensure the security of the key-escrow system. in making this decision, i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing, or the government from approving, other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key- escrow system. key-escrow the attorney general shall make all arrangements with appropriate entities to hold the keys for the key-escrow microcircuits installed in communications equipment. in each case, the key holder must agree to strict security procedures to prevent unauthorized release of the keys. the keys shall be released only to government agencies that have established their authority to acquire the content of those communications that have been encrypted by devices containing the microcircuits. the attorney general shall review for legal sufficiency the procedures by which an agency establishes its authority to acquire the content of such procurement and use of encryption devices the secretary of commerce, in consultation with other appropriate u.s. agencies, shall initiate a process to write standards to facilitate the procurement and use of encryption devices fitted with key-escrow microcircuits in federal communications systems that process sensitive but unclassified information. i expect this process to proceed on a schedule that will permit promulgation of a final standard within six months of this directive. the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government's ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications. further, the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase. 
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 from a.p. : according to numerous accounts by those in the compound, the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank, and turning over numerous gas lanterns. if there was a large propane tank, and it was breached, don't you think that there would be an identifiable explosion? further, the bd members have as much reason to lie as the gov't. medical examiners have found no bullet wounds, as was stated by the fbi, on the corpses. they'd only autopsied one body when this information was released. i wouldn't doubt though i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story, despite much evidence to the contrary. the only evidence that exists right now (at least what we know about) is various claims and counter claims. i'm waiting until the hard evidence is released. what about you? _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 and another thing that puzzles me--why are they finding dead bodies inside who had bullet holes already in them??? don't you think it's possible that koresh shot the traitors rather than letting them out??? possible. i wouldn't put it past him. it is also possible that they were hit by rounds exploding in the extreme heat. remember that kept the cops away for hours. i have only heard that bodies were found shot, not any coroner's cause of death. so far, the medical examiner (according to the news) has found no evidence of gunshot wounds in bodies so far examined. if this continues to be the case, it will sort of shoot holes (pun intended) in the fbi story, wouldn't it? and cartridges going off outside a firearm do not launch a bullet like they do when fired from a gun. the bullet hardly moves, it is the brass casing that goes flying, and then with less than lethal force. it will hurt, yes, but not kill you - i doubt if it wil penetrate a coat, for example. how about an independent investigation, with full subpoena powers, and powers to prosecute on felony charges, to investigate for any possible illegal/criminal activity on the part of both the batf and fbi? i cannot see any reason why not - to use the phrase they like to use so often, "if they have nothing to hide..." they should welcome it, and vigorously support it. note that an internal investigation by the dept of justice is not an independent investigation... pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 ...gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings (especially youths), domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger, and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street-level what gives you the idea that gun "buyback" programs will have an impact on any of these things? evidence, please? please don't misinterret what i was saying joe. i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents. saying "hopefully the effect of policy x will be y" is *much* different from saying "hopefully if there is any effect of policy x it will be y." here you've made both statements. if the former describes a reasonably-likely outcome of policy x, then perhaps policy x is worthy of consideration - but the latter statement is not something to base policy decisions on! firearms are the fifth-leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under. according to groups like the center to prevent handgun violence (formerly the national coalition to ban handguns - interesting name change, don't you think?) who include murder and suicide by firearms in the "leading causes of unintentional death) figures but *don't* include murder and suicide by other means as causes of unintentional death. can't you see past the bullshit? i don't understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important. so guns don't kill as many children as car accidents. what is the difference in severity between 1,000 deaths and 10,000 deaths? i am not trying to use accidental gun-related deaths among children as a justification for gun control. who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem? i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any 10 year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends. certainly accidental deaths by any cause are serious things - but the anti-gun groups insist over and over again that accidental death by firearms is a *stastically serious problem*, and even if you don't use these deaths as a justification for gun control, these groups do. i'm sorry if i jumped to conclusions about your reason for mentioning accidental deaths due to firearms being something that warranted concern, but in light of your statement that you are a staunch supporter of gun control measures, i think the conclusion was a reasonable one. the fact remains that tragic though individual accidental gun deaths may be, they are *not* a serious problem statistically speaking. please explain why you think "symbolic offerings" do good. my point was, gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might (i stress might) do a little (i stress little) good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way. overall, i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were sorry if it wasn't clear to me. i thought you were waffling on your view of buyback programs with the talk of symbolic offerings and hopefully preventing accidents and heat-of-passion shootings. i have to disagree on all these counts; i can't understand how a buying guns from people who aren't intending to misuse them (obviously those who want to use guns to commit crimes aren't going to turn them in) could be construed as a positive way for police to respond to "interpersonal violence." i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these "statistics" - i suspect you'll find if you look carefully that 135,000 is the number of students *estimated* to have carried *a weapon* (not necessarily a gun) to school at least once in the past year, and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily. well joe, i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence what, the people who publish figures saying that as many children commit suicide by handguns alone each year as the fbi says commit suicide by all methods per year? who do you think i should believe? the people who call everyone up to age 24 "children" when they're screaming about the "carnage of our nation's children" being caused by handguns? or the centers for disease control. ah, yes, the agency that considers accidental shootings of children to be such a statistical problem that a stated objective in the healthy people 2000 document is to "enact laws in 50 states requiring manufacturers of handguns to make the handguns more difficult to fire, minimizing the likelihood of accidental or intentional dscharge by children?" the agency that funded the "study" of dc which pronounced that the dc gun ban had saved x lives (yes, they actually gave us a number) on the basis of a look at the *number* of shootings rather than the *rate* of shootings? it wasn't their fault that the population of dc dropped in their "post law" period... if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths. the cphv reports that 135,000 youth bring guns to school daily and that 400,000 bring guns to school at least once a year. the cdc estimates that 1 out 0f 25 high school students carried a gun to school at least once in 1990. okay, i'll concede i no longer have the numbers i once read on these. i'll retract my dispute of your numbers. however, i would be greatly interested in seeing how cphv and cdc came up with these numbers. the cdc also says that 1.2 million elementary-aged, latch-key children (kids who come home from school to an empty house), have access to guns in their home. what's this got to do with anything? hell, when *i* was in elementary school i came home to an empty house with guns in it. why is this a problem? i didn't touch the guns - i had been taught not to. i had also been taught not to mess with the gasoline in the garage, the fuse box, the car, the knives, the oven, and the tools. the problem is not the guns, it's the parents!!! california schools reported a 200% increase in student gun confiscations between 1986 and 1990, and a 40% increase between 1988 and 1990. florida reported a 61% percent increase in gun incidents in schools between 1986/87 amd 1987/88. these are the "statistics". and what are these states doing with the kids they find with guns? nothing. no criminal prosecution, no expulsion, in most cases not even suspension. they take the gun, slap the kids on the wrist, say "ain't it awful," and go on as if everything's back to normal. what's wrong with this picture? okay, maybe i worded it wrong...dad. i meant that to put children in a situation (fortified compound) where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion. i'm not saying that koresh had control over these children directly, but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die. i don't think koresh was the messiah, either... but isn't it obvious that if he believed the forces of evil were come to destroy him, then he believed the children were much safer inside the compound? i didn't say he was sane... just that he behaved in a pretty rational manner given what he thought was going on. he thought he had them in the one place where harm *wouldn't* come to them. if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such, why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive? let's see *you* try to find the exits, unbarricade them, and flee a fire when you've been kept awake for most of 50 days by loudspeakers and subjected to six hours of tanks knocking in your walls and tear gas assault. 
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 from a.p. : according to numerous accounts by those in the compound, the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank, and turning over numerous gas lanterns. if there was a large propane tank, and it was breached, don't you think that there would be an identifiable explosion? there was at least one blast consistent with petroleum products that i saw, however propane is interesting stuff. it doesn't explode on contact with air. it is *possible* for a tank to rupture without exploding. far more likely, however, is that the compound was equipped with ng outlets running to the tank. damage from the cev's could have ruptured the gas lines, allowing the gas to spread, unnoticed in the cs fumes and general excitement (propane typically has a distinctive odor added to it for just this reason -- to smell leaks), until reaching a flame or spark, and then whooosh! fire everywhere, and maybe an explosion. use of ng is pretty common in texas, especially semi-rural areas. further, the bd members have as much reason to lie as the gov't. this is true, but so far the fbi/batf track record on this incident is very i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story, despite much evidence to the contrary. the only evidence that exists right now (at least what we know about) is various claims and counter claims. i'm waiting until the hard evidence is released. what about you? i think it would have disarmed many people if the fbi followed this same policy. they have not. they are making claims without evidence, and what evidence we have so far tends to refute their story. semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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 if there was a large propane tank, and it was breached, don't you think that there would be an identifiable explosion? from what i saw of the videotape, there was an explosion which looked more like one due to propane rather than (official version) the only evidence that exists right now (at least what we know about) is various claims and counter claims. i'm waiting until the hard evidence is released. what about you? if only we could be certain that the hard evidence will be released. [standard disclaimer] 
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 people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren't deserved of it. there it is. the constitution isn't for "sociopaths", only "normal" people, eh? we mustn't allow our constitution to be cheapened by applying it to everybody, eh? you disgust me. --john l. scott 
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 : the branch davidians were not violent and were not planning to start : violence. : when the bd compound was assaulted by the atf the bd did fire back. : but they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the atf to care for : their wounded. the bd even released the atf agents they captured. it : is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the atf medical : attention that the bd were not looking for trouble. this is the first i've heard of the bd capturing and releasing atf agents. is there any more info about this? rob p. 
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 i've been running a daily summary of the randy weaver/kevin harris trial from here in boise. these summaries are sent primarily to mailing lists. however, i was wondering if people would be interested in seeing them here. post or betz@gozer.idbsu.edu *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho *** *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights *** *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc, semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium 
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 hail from the nether world. on february 4th, the wall street journal carried a front-page article by erik larson entitled "armed force." i felt a reply was in order to his citation of the notorious scare stat that "a gun is 43 times more likely to kill than to protect." i sent the following to the wsj. gun stats & mortal risks preston k. covey erik larson~s even-handed article on paxton quigley (~armed force,~ 2/4/93, wsj) cites the world~s most notorious ~statistic~ regarding guns in the home: ~a pioneering study of residential gunshot deaths in king county, washington, found that a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner, spouse, a friend or child than to kill an intruder.~ the ~43 times~ stat is everywhere these days; it has grown in media lore like the proverbial urban myth: it was inflated by one pugilistic talk-show pundit to ~93.~ given the shock value of the finding, the conclusion of the 1986 new england journal of medicine (nejm) study is remarkably understated: ~the advisability of keeping firearms in the home for protection must be questioned.~ responsible people should indeed question the risks and benefits of bringing a firearm into their home. but what we need to know is this: what exactly are the risks and benefits? the nejm testimony is neither the whole truth about the benefits nor nothing but the truth about the risks. further, as with motor vehicles, we want to know: what control do we have over the risks and benefits? and, as with the risks of cancer or heart disease or auto accidents: how can we minimize the risks? like raw highway death tolls, the nejm stat is not very helpful the nejm finding purports to inform us, but it is framed to warn us off. it is widely promulgated in the media as a ~scare stat,~ a misleading half-truth whose very formulation is calculated to prejudice and terrify. the frightful statistic screams for itself: the risks far outweigh the benefits, yes? what fool would run these risks? if your car were 43 times more likely to kill you, a loved one, a dear friend or an innocent child than to get you to your destination, should you not take the bus? uncritical citation puts the good name of statistics in the bad company of lies and damned lies. surely, we can do better where lives are at stake. let~s take a closer look at this risky business: the ~43 times~ stat of the nejm study is the product of dividing the number of home intruders/aggressors justifiably killed in self-defense (the divisor) into the number of family members or acquaintances killed by a gun in the home (the dividend). the divisor of this risk equation is 9: in the study~s five-year sample there were 2 intruders and 7 other cases of self-defense. the dividend is 387: in the study there were 12 accidental deaths, 42 criminal homicides, and 333 suicides. 387 divided by 9 yields 43. there were a total of 743 gun-related deaths in king county between 1978 and 1983, so the study leaves 347 deaths outside of homes unaccounted. the nejm~s notorious ~43 times~ statistic is seriously misleading on six counts: 1. the dividend is misleadingly characterized in the media: the ~or acquaintances~ of the study (who include your friendly drug dealers and neighborhood gang members) is equated to ~friends.~ the implication is that the offending guns target and kill only beloved family members, dear friends, and innocent children. deaths may all be equally tragic, but the character and circumstance of both victims and killers are relevant to the risk. these crucial risk factors are masked by the calculated impression that the death toll is generated by witless waltons shooting dear friends and friendly neighbors. this is criminological hogwash. 2. the study itself does not distinguish households or environs populated by people with violent, criminal, or substance-abuse histories -- where the risk of death is very high -- versus households inhabited by more civil folk (for example, people who avoid high-risk activities like drug dealing, gang banging and wife beating) -- where the risk is very low indeed. in actuality, negligent adults allow fatal but avoidable accidents; and homicides are perpetrated mostly by people with histories of violence or abuse, people who are identifiably and certifiably at ~high risk~ for misadventure. to ignore these obvious risk factors in firearm accidents and homicides is as misleading as ignoring the role of alcohol in vehicular deaths: by tautology, neither gun deaths nor vehicular deaths would occur without firearms or vehicles; but the person and circumstance of the gun owner or driver crucially affect the risk. 3. one misleading implication of the way the nejm stat is framed is that the mere presence of a gun in the home is much more likely to kill than to protect, and this obscures -- indeed, disregards -- the role of personal responsibility. the typical quotation of this study (unlike larson~s) attributes fatal agency to the gun: ~a gun in the home is 43 times as likely to kill . . . .~ (the center to prevent handgun violence, a major promulgator of the nejm statistic, uses this particular formulation.) we can dispense with the silly debate about whether it~s people or guns that accomplish the killing: again, by tautology, gun deaths would not occur without the guns. the question begged is how many deaths would occur anyway, without the guns. in any case, people are the death-dealing agents, the guns are their lethal instruments. the moral core of the personal risk factors in gun deaths are personal responsibility and choice. due care and responsibility obviate gun accidents; human choice mediates homicide and suicide (by gun or otherwise). the choice to own a gun need not condemn a person to nejm~s high-risk pool. the gun does not create this risk by itself. people have a lot to say about what risk they run with guns in their homes. for example, graduates of paxton quigley~s personal protection course do not run the touted ~43 times~ risk any more than skilled and sober drivers run the same risks of causing or suffering vehicular death as do reckless or drunk drivers. undiscriminating actuarials disregard and obscure the role of personal responsibility and choice, just as they disregard and obscure the role of socio-economic, criminological and other risk-relevant factors in firearm-related death. this is why we resent insurance premiums and actuarial consigment to risk pools whose norms disregard our individualities. fortunately, nothing can consign us to the nejm risk pool but our own lack of choice or responsibility in the matter. 4. suicide accounts for 84% of the deaths by gun in the home in the nejm study. as against the total deaths by gun in king county, including those outside the home, in-house suicides are 44% of the total death toll, which is closer to the roughly 50% proportion found by other studies. suicide is a social problem of a very different order from homicide or accidents. the implication of the nejm study is that these suicides might not occur without readily available guns. it is true that attempted suicide by gun is likely to succeed. it is not obviously true that the absence of a gun would prevent any or all of these suicides. this is widely assumed or alleged, but the preponderance of research on guns and suicide actually shows otherwise, that this is wishful thinking in all but a few truly impulsive cases. (see: bruce l. danto et al., the human side of homicide, columbia university press, 1982; charles rich et al., ~guns and suicide,~ american journal of psychiatry, march 1990.) if suicides were removed from the dividend of the nejm study~s risk equation, the ~43 times~ stat would deflate to ~six.~ the inclusion of suicides in the nejm risk equation -- like the causes, durability, or interdiction of suicidal intent itself -- is a profoundly debatable matter. quotations of the nejm study totally disregard this issue. 5. citations of the nejm study also mislead regarding the estimable rate of justifiable and excusable homicide. most measures, like the nejm homicide rate, are based on the immediate disposition of cases. but many homicides initially ruled criminal are appealed and later ruled self-defense. in the literature on battered women, immediate case dispositions are notorious for under-representing the rate of justifiable or excusable homicide. time~s january 18, 1993, cover story on women ~fighting back~ reported one study~s finding that 40% of women who appeal have their murder convictions thrown out. time~s july 17, 1989, cover story on a week of gun deaths reported 51% of the domestic cases as shootings by abuse victims; but only 3% of the homicides were reported as self-defense. in a may 14, 1990, update, time reported that 12% of the homicides had eventually been ruled self-defense. in time~s sample, the originally reported rate of self-defense was in error by a factor of four. the possibility of such error is not acknowledged by promulgators of the nejm statistic. 6. while both the dividend and the product of the nejm risk equation are arguably inflated, the divisor is unconscionably misleading. the divisor of this equation counts only aggressors who are killed, not aggressors who are successfully thwarted without being killed or even shot at. the utility of armed self-defense is the other side of the coin from the harms done with guns in homes. what kind of moral idiocy is it to measure this utility only in terms of killings ? do we measure the utility of our police solely in terms of felons killed -- as opposed to the many many more who are otherwise foiled, apprehended, or deterred? should we not celebrate (let alone count ) those cases where no human life is lost as successful armed defenses? the question posed to media that cite the nejm scare stat is this: why neglect the compendious research on successful armed defense, notably by criminologist gary kleck (point blank: guns and violence in america , aldine de gruyter, 1992)? kleck~s estimations of the rate and risk of defensive firearm use are based on victimization surveys as well as other studies: the rate is high (about one million a year) and the risk is good (gun defenders fare better than anyone, either those who resort to other forms of resistance or those who do not resist). dividing one million gun defenses a year by 30,000 annual gun deaths (from self-defense, homicides, suicides, and accidents) yields 33. thus, we can construct a much more favorable statistic than the nejm scare stat: a gun is 33 times more likely to be used to defend against assault or other crime than to kill anybody. of course, kleck~s critics belittle the dividend of this calculation; what is good news for gun defenders is bad news for gun control. we should indeed question the basis and method of kleck~s high estimation of defensive firearm use, as i have questioned the nejm statistic. clearly, the issue of how to manage mortal risks is not settled by uncritical citation of statistics. one thing troubles me still: we can hardly escape the unquestioned nejm scare stat in our media, but we hardly ever find kleck~s good work mentioned, even critically. larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 if you haven't heard yet, us senator patty murrey, a mom in tennis shoes, is planning to introduce legislation to tax all handgun transactions and increase dealer licnese costs in order to raise money to cover the costs of un-insured shooting victums. she plans to start with $2500.00 per year dealer fees and $40.00 or so, depending on the type of firearm, per gun transaction. she plans to make it federal. she was elected in washington state under the trade mark as just a mom in tennis shoes. she can be written to via the united states senate, washinton dc. she is looking for your tennis shoes. so if you have a pair please send them to her with your feelings regarding this tax. she claims she has heard little from the opposition. lets inundate her! bigot! the definition of a bigot is a conservative winning an argument! 
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 />/:/g j:maybe they wanted it to look like murder. he had 50+ days. i think this was :>coming the whole time. he didn't even put the children in the buried bus or :>the underground bunker during the cs seige. he put them up into the tower :>to die. : is cs gas lighter or heavier than air? do you know? if the cs is heavier than air... most chemical weapons are... james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion. baptists are a cult, two, btw, under most of the definitions in the dictionary of "cult". i've yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell's soup and m-16's/ar-15's know any mormons? and banging/marrying thirteen yuear olds. know for a fact that this was happening? state of texas says it wasn't, and they held a trial to prove it. you're a sorry son of a bitch if you can't draw a distinction between these two things. sure we can. the top two things are perfectly legal. the bottom one isn't. the person here who can't distinguish seems to be you. people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren't deserved of it. so the constitution is only for people you approve of. fine, fine. i usually refer to that as "elitism," because "bigotry" is so negative. get a life and chill on the paranoia. knowing that people like you are out there really gives me warm fuzzies. joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 good question. take an objective look at what happened, listen to the things that the fbi said ("the bd's started the fire." "the bd's bodies were found with gunshot wounds.") that are now being refuted by the evidence being recovered. seems that the fbi is deliberately making statements that have no rational basis in fact, and trying to make them sound like fact. that's another sad thing. i'd expect this sort of shit from the batf. but i'm goddamn disappointed in the fbi. they used to be professionals. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 sorry, guy, you got it wrong. atf was pumping tear gas into the compound. the branch davidians (going along with their apocolyptic faith) set their own compound on fire killing all but 9 or so. no children survived. seeing as how people are willing to quote the fbi quoting cultists who just yesterday were deranged and not to be trusted (hmm the fbi or the cultists...) i think i'll quote the bbc quoting (actually voice interview) one of the two british survivors. he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall/roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan. maybe true, partly true, or false. alan greig janet: a.greig@uk.ac.dct dundee institute of technology internet: a.greig@dct.ac.uk tel: (0382) 308810 (int +44 382 308810) ** never underestimate the power of human stupidity ** 
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 and a few other questions. like i said, i believe the actions taken, in general, were proper. but i still have some reservations. we've heard a lot of talk about brainwashing in waco but the brainwashing of the general population never ceases to amaze me. here is an example of action being taken which results in the worst possible outcome and despite people's deep intuition telling them something is wrong the programming will still cut in and say that the agents probably acted in good faith. no they didn't. they either did not have enough information to act in good faith or else they acted knowing the risk. sums up human stupidity all over and one of these days it will destroy the fucking planet: "oh sorry. didn't think they would respond by launching a strike. all our best calculations told us they were bluffing." alan greig janet: a.greig@uk.ac.dct dundee institute of technology internet: a.greig@dct.ac.uk tel: (0382) 308810 (int +44 382 308810) ** never underestimate the power of human stupidity ** 
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 oh, then, i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right. you sick bastard. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... why thanks for your reply to my post. by the way, i never, never ever said that it was right to shoot "those kind" of babies. however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their "savior" (yeah right budy boy) because he had brain-washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth, even if means that they are to give up their lives for <<<<his>>>> cause. therefore it is davids fault and not the atf's who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me and for goodness sake if they had fired a cruise missile at the compound more people would have come out alive. it was obvious to anyone with the remotest contact with reality that such an outcome was likely (not just possible) however the fire started. as, mr lawnmower, you seem to have already entered your own little virtual reality i guess you can't be expected to understand things in the real universe. alan greig janet: a.greig@uk.ac.dct dundee institute of technology internet: a.greig@dct.ac.uk tel: (0382) 308810 (int +44 382 308810) ** never underestimate the power of human stupidity ** 
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 so, why didn't the bd's leave when the gas was first introduced much earlier in the morning? didn't they care about the children? why didn't they release the children weeks ago? because most of the children were with their parent(s). do you understand that concept? here's a bunch of people who believe in their minds that the forces of satanic evil are outside and you expect them to hand over their own children? were you born that stupid or does it take a lot of effort? alan greig janet: a.greig@uk.ac.dct dundee institute of technology internet: a.greig@dct.ac.uk tel: (0382) 308810 (int +44 382 308810) ** never underestimate the power of human stupidity ** 
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 does a "not harmful" gassing mean that you can, with a little willpower, stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems? if so, why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam? what is the difference, anyway? cs "tear-gas" was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat. well, not quite that bad, but you can't really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies. chuck harris - wa3uqv chuck@eng.umd.edu interesting... after several hours worth of exposure, do you still posess the presence of mind to be able to determine how to escape from an inferno surrounding you? in other words, is it possible that the prolonged gassing disoriented the wackos enough that possibility of escape was rendered 
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 costley@solo.eng.hou.compaq.com (brett costley) said: *sigh* i just don't understand why they couldn't have waited koresh&co out. [jlpicard@austin.ibm.com] uh, maybe because it was costing hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to just sit and wait. yeah. we don't want to spend too much money preserving lives, after all. escpecially when they're all just a bunch of crazy fanatic cultists anyway, instead of normal people. [the above is supposed to be dripping with sarcasm, but i'm too burned out right now (get it? "burned out" ha ha!) to tell if it's working. look, folks, what david koresh and his followers were was _broken_. it takes a certain amount of flexibility and insanity to survive in this world and they didn't have enough of it and that wasn't their fault. so please stop dancing on their graves, okay?] -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> 
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 napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas. do you eat all your food cold? ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves? very popular. electric stoves outside metro-areas especially. ever hear about cutting off the electricity? that was done. how effective is an electric stove then? [standard disclaimer] 
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 just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (ap, etc.) that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires. it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause. "widely reported", eh? remember, this has had a news blackout since day 2. the fbi is the single, sole, source of these rumors. it may be the truth, but it may not be. we may never know. we must question it, though. why no media coverare? what were they hiding? what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident. i believe the moves made were right and proper, but i still have some problems with some of the tactics. after watching the abc special on it tonight, as well as cnn and nightline, i question some of the atf and fbi actions. 1) could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb. 28th raid? it would seem so. 2) could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome. they would still be alive, today. another day is another chance. 3) were fbi actions (blaring loudspeakers, etc.) the "right" course of i think it contributed to the outcome. folks that are sleep deprived tend not to think clearly and a few other questions. like i said, i believe the actions taken, in general, were proper. but i still have some reservations. i feel strongly they were not proper. one other point, i'm no fan of janet reno, but i do like the way she had the "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility. seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue. as expected. if it had come out well, he would not have hesitated to take full jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined. other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry. licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals. i am not a lawyer, but these ideas could certainly be a basis for i hope you realize how trivial it is to manufacture these compounds. given about $10k in lab equipment and chemicals (which are commercially available) and given the knowledge that i have (graduating bs, ch, 1993) i could synthesize enough of these compounds to make a serious dent in the population of several major us cities. as also noted, the knowledge is there for the production of nuclear weapons. it's not even that restricted. the only thing is the expense. now i'm not going around making these things, but it's not 'cause of any law; i simply don't get any marginal benefit out of killing anyone. any law you enact in this respect is only going to give you the ability to add a charge against someone who does make and use said weapons. in the case of chemical agents, i seriously doubt that you would even know that someone had set up a lab until after the weapons had been used. part of the trouble with the chemical-weapons ban treaty between the us and the ussr is that many of the precursors to chemical weapons such as gb and sarin, etc., is that they have very valid commercial uses, and it is very easy to divert those precursors to chemical weapons manufacture without anyone knowing about it. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > doug foxvog douglas.foxvog@vtt.fi arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 does anybody have any solid data on how many legally owned versus illegally owned firearms are used in crime. i know the number of legally owned guns used in crime is small, but i would like a number, and a reference if possible. data should be e-mailed to me. open discussion should be directed to talk.politics.guns [unlike cats] dogs never scratch you when you wash them. they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong. -dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity, pittsburgh, pa arpa :eliot+@cmu.edu |------------------------------------------ or se08+@andrew.cmu.edu | bitnet: se08%andrew@cmccvb | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54667">
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 :what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of :had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the :with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed :more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is :with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with :mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few i hope this is a joke... if not, here's my response: the batf has a history of no-knock raids with poor evidence, often resulting in innocent people being killed or suffering injury to person or property. i will not support the batf until they clean up their act... maybe... as to equipment, the batf has damn near anything it wants... their faults were in intelligence (military and civilian definitions apply), tactics (attacking during daylight??), methodology (the fbi stated that it is against government policy to assault a position where there are non-combatants/potential hostages without attempting negotiations first), and legality. the batf's jurisdiction is taxes on firearms and tobacco. they are a branch of the department of the treasury. they have very curiously backed away from their claims of illegal weaponry to push the child-abuse charges... the batf has no jurisdiction over non-firearms/tobacco issues! and the charges of child-abuse had been investigated in the past with no violence and no validation. this was a clear case of first the batf, then the fbi, having watched too many rambo movies... my opinion is that the agent in charge should be charged with executing an illegal raid, criminal negligence, murder, civil rights violations, and breaking his/her oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the us. the warrant should be unsealed to reveal to the public what justification the batf thought it had in committing an armed assault on american citizens. and while on the issue of investigating this issue, the randy weaver case and the johnny lawmaster case should be investigated for batf wrongdoing. btw, if the batf came busting in my windows with concussion grenades, you could damn well bet i would return fire to the utmost of my ability. james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 in a previous article, gs26@prism.gatech.edu (glenn r. stone) says: fact: both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility, even grief, over the deaths in waco. fact: regardless of who started the fire, there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two. cruel and unusual punishment (dying tortured rabbits on tape?) come to mind. fact: it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law; where death is involved, this offense carries a penalty of life in prison. fact: impeachment is allowable for "high crimes and misdemeanors." anything that's a federal felony should qualify. conclusion: we have no choice, if we are an honest people, but to impeach mr. clinton, and remove reno from office. i heartily agree. now that the batf warrant has been unsealed, it is clear that clinton and reno supported an illegal raid. did they not know this? no authority for a 'no-knock" raid no authority to use helicopters. no authority to search for a "drug lab" and, apparently, not even any authority to search for "automatic weapons". 51 days of government lies. 
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 or the cultists...) i think i'll quote the bbc quoting (actually voice interview) one of the two british survivors. he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall/roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan. if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the burning building? assuming the fire was caused by lanterns and stoves being knocked about by the tanks pushing on the walls (would shake a building pretty good) perhaps they didn't flee because fleeing would have meant entering the fire from the other side? like they were surrounded by the fire, and rubble, which finally (combined with teargas, and combustion gasses) overcame and enveloped them? in other words they were trapped by the flames, heat, fumes and rubble? does that sound plausable? not as dramatic as korash forcing them to stay, or shooting them (no shot victims found yet), but plausable... pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 i just caught the last bit of the street stories segment on woman and guns.what caught my eye was that two woman were shown on the program in mass. and both were carrying concealed. can you obtain a ccw in mass.?( for the ordinary citizen ) ccw's are issued at the discretion of the police chief, so it varies town by town. in my town, forget about anything more than "target and sport" (carry to and from the gun club / hunting area only) unless you're mr. moneybags with large daily deposits. ("your life isn't worth shit, but your money -- now, that's important.") in other towns, they treat law abiding citizens like adults. secret game hint: you never know when the rules will be changed -- a change in police chief can throw a town from either side of the board to the other -- fun for the whole family! some chiefs will grant you a "personal protection" permit if you have been attacked or threatened. some other blue-suited assholes have been known to count this as a negative against applicants. it's a crap shoot, and your rights are the stakes. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 cross-posted to talk.politics.guns from can.politics: # >been to waco, texas lately? yes, the government takes care of us # >all, doesn't it? as long as you belong to a government-sanctioned # >religion. # excuse me, but didn't these gun-ladden cult members threaten, shoot and kill # some people? they threatened no one. their neighbours thought they were a little strange but all in all the kind of people you would want to live next door to. one version has the batf serving a *search* warrant by jumping out of a horse trailer with guns and tossing concussion grenades. if this is the true order of events then the 'cult' could not know that a search warrant was being served and since there was no proof that these guys were police, the 'cult' had every right to defend : torching themselves shows briliant tactics, and convinces me : they *realy* belong in society ... if you watch actual footage of the fire from start to finish it is not at all clear that fire wasn't started by the tanks. the people who survived are claiming that the fire was started by the tanks knocking over some kerosene lanterns. the fbi is claiming that the 'cult' started the fire. 'they *realy* belong in society' is a catchy phrase but i'm personally waiting to see what the texas rangers have to say about it all before i pass judgment. why don't you do the same. some more interesting facts about the waco incident: 1) the original assault was conducted by batf officers wearing an assorted types of camouflage. i saw, on cnn, at least three different types. i would be hard pressed to identify a bunch of guys in 'bring-your-own' battle fatigues as uniformed officers of the law even if they were claiming to be police. 2) the batf has been lying from the beginning: + "we only had handguns" - the original footage showed 4 batf officers on a roof top getting shot at, one had an mp-5 assault sub-machine gun. + "we were out gunned" - sub-machine guns and shotguns are the best in quarters weapon, you can't be out gunned when you have the best guns available for the job. + "we didn't know they had guns that would shoot through doors!" - this one is the best, there are very few guns that won't shoot through a household door, or through a house wall for that matter. since officers from the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and *firearms* should know that, they are either lying or incredibly incompetent. not to mention criminally negligent if they are shooting bullets that they think will stop when the encounter + "we had a search warrant. actually, we had an arrest warrant. no, wait, we had both. yeah, that's the ticket. oh, and they're child molesters too. and they make *drugs*. did we mention we think they have rocket launchers." - the story from batf and fbi spokespeople has changed daily and their claims were getting increasingly outrageous. 3) throughout the siege the fbi and batf have be claiming that one of their biggest concerns was that koresh and his followers would mass suicide. now they are claiming that that's what he did and that they are surprised that he did. huh? all in all i think that anything the fbi and batf say should be taken with a grain or two of salt. robert a. osborne ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com 
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 :> as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day :> in texas. :do you eat all your food cold? thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it. i can't stand it when people's first reaction is to defend the aggressor. minor quibble: the assualt (and it was one) began near dawn. the fire did not break out for several hours. i find it highly unlikely that the bd would be cooking lunch while armored vehicles punch holes in their house and are pumping in tear gas. the lantern story makes more sense, except the fire seemed to spread too quickly, even given the nature of the buildings and the very high winds. and it was daylight, but i guess in the innner recesses it could be dark--shutters probably closed as well. which puts us back to the fbi did it, or the bd did it, or some other screw- up occured, which is quite possible. the problem with the fbi as a monolithic entity doing it is that it requires *everybody* involved to keep their mouths shut. while they tended to behave like total idiots, that does not make them homocidal maniacs, either. and if it was one nutcase agent, then it serves no purpose to blame the whole agency. i can believe that a real nut-case like a koresh would start such a fire, but i'm far from convinced he actually did so. then again, i rarely go off making blanket condemnations and pronouncments within 2 hours of a very confusing incident over 175 miles away... semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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 chemical weapons are not concidered a *very* effectiv weapon against millitary forces. on civillians on the other hand.... that's one good reason for banning it. you need vast amounts of chemicals to be affective, so the best reason to have/use it is price. (that's why it's called the poor mans a-bomb) any thoughts on bio-weapons ?? if this discusion is about civillians having chem-weapons; what should they use them on?? rob a bank ?? this is not a .signature. it's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet. thomas parsli thomasp@ifi.uio.no 
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 i also believe texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in usa...... in texas, you cannot carry a handgun. period. either concealed or open. currently, there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons. i don't have the details, sorry. semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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 american and european universities were full of angry young people(tm) that wanted to overthrow the government, and wouldn't think twice about lobbing a molotov cocktail at the national guard (military police in europe.) certainly, it would have been very bad form to take anything the system(tm) said at face value. this was in the end of the sixties and the begining of the seventies, i'm told. i was too young to remember. something wrong happened along the way, i'm afraid. maybe the west became just too comfortable, or maybe i was born too late :( yours, disappointed with with the youth of today, isn't it ironic. i'm of that generation, and i remember the lesson. i cry to see all the postings from domestic .edu sites that have naively swallowed everything the government has seen fit to feed to them. especially contrasted to such a post from the .uk yet. 2) there *is* a difference between lining up 90 people against the wall and executing them, and causing their deaths through negligence/ imcompetence. i honestly hope we witnessed the latter. as they say, the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. i suspect we saw the latter. however, the injustice implied in letting those involved escape without investigation and/or prosecution is also horrible to contemplate. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 as william o. douglas noted, "if a powerful sponsor is lacking, individual liberty withers -- in spite of glowing opinions and resounding constitutional phrases." an excellent quote. i looked under 'c' and 'k' for kalifornia; has the nra given up on us? one might well ask if ca gun owners have given up on the nra/crpa. the national nra doesn't march in and get things passed. they provide a convenient label for local activities/activists. 
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 on the subject of cs/cn/tear gas: when i received my initial introduction to tear gas, the first thing that came to mind was the location of the exit. if there had been anything in the way, corners to negotiate, doors to open, or any other obstacles to movement, i would have had a difficult time exiting the chamber. and any concentration of tear gas is hazardous to individuals with respiratory problems, and the wearing of soft contact lenses in a tear gas contaminated area is considered a real bad idea. so hoping the bd's would peaceably come strolling out the door after being gassed is a bit unrealistic. if they could have found the door, having them staggering out retching wouldn't be too far fetched. throw in the factor of 50-51 days of being under siege and subject to psychological warfare, and all bets on functional abilities are off. anybody tried to get amnesty international to jump in on this one? james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 first, i would like to say how much i appreciate having so literate and erudite an individual as mr. rutledge with whom to discuss this topic. frankly, most anti-rkba posters refuse even to approach the topic of the original understanding of the bill of rights as detailed in the writings of the era. this is most refreshing. second, i must apologize for leaving the discussion for several days. my brigade's quarterly drill was this weekend and i needed to attend to several matters pertaining to the state militia. some people seem to feel that the concept of the militia is an anachro- nism that is out of place in the 20th century. i'm not sure the swiss would agree and i think perhaps a discussion of how the militia, both organized and unorganized, fits into the defense plans of my state, mississippi. please do not assume that this describes something peculiar to one southern state. for instance, the commonwealth of massachusetts has a well organized militia which, members report, maintains stocks of both riot guns and machine guns. the laws of other states will vary but are probably similar. it appears it is time that this article (originally posted by larry cipriani last year, and which i saved) gets posted again. it offers as good an analysis of the meaning of the second amendment, especially regarding the militia clause, as i have seen. i have not seen any rebuttles with similar bone fides... enjoy. (flames to /dev/null) --------- begin enclosed article ----------- the unabridged second amendment by j. neil schulman if you wanted to know all about the big bang, you'd ring up carl sagan, right ? and if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be norman schwarzkopf, no question about it. but who would you call if you wanted the top expert on american usage, to tell you the meaning of the second amendment to the united states constitution ? that was the question i asked a.c. brocki, editorial coordinator of the los angeles unified school district and formerly senior editor at houghton mifflin publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on english usage in the los angeles school system. mr. brocki told me to get in touch with roy copperud, a retired professor journalism at the university of southern california and the author of "american usage and style: the consensus." a little research lent support to brocki's opinion of professor copperud's roy copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at usc. since 1952, copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for "editor and publisher", a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field. he's on the usage panel of the american heritage dictionary, and merriam webster's usage dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. copperud's fifth book on usage, "american usage and style: the consensus," has been in continuous print from van nostrand reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the association of american publisher's humanities award. that sounds like an expert to me. after a brief telephone call to professor copperud in which i introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why i was interested, i sent the following letter: "i am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in english usage, to analyze the text of the second amendment to the united states constitution, and extract the intent from the text. "the text of the second amendment is, 'a well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.' "the debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.' "i would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the second amendment, i ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary." my letter framed several questions about the test of the second amendment, then concluded: "i realize that i am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. i am doing so because, as a citizen, i believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the second amendment. while i ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, i ask that you do this because of that importance." after several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the second amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, professor copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which i have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity): [copperud:] "the words 'a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of july 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. it is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). the to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia. "in reply to your numbered questions: [schulman:] "(1) can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?" [copperud:] "(1) the sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people." [schulman:] "(2) is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the second amendment, or does the second amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?" [copperud:] "(2) the right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. the thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia." [schulman:] "(3) is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free state, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?" [copperud:] "(3) no such condition is expressed or implied. the right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. no condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. the right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence." [schulman:] "(4) does the clause 'a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?" [copperud:] "(4) the right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. it is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia." [schulman:] "(5) which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?" [copperud:] "(5) the phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military." [schulman:] "(6) (if at all possible, i would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated." [copperud:] "to the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. if it were written today, it might be put: "since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.' [schulman:] "as a 'scientific control' on this analysis, i would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the second amendment to the following sentence, "a well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.' "my questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be, "(1) is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the second amendment's sentence?; "(2) could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read books' _only_ to 'a well-educated electorate' -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?" [copperud:] "(1) your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure. "(2) there is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation." professor copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "with well-known human curiosity, i made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion." so now we have been told by one of the top experts on american usage what many knew all along: the constitution of the united states unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the constitution from abridging that right. as i write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the soviet union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power. and here in the united states, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the constitution of the united states ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the second amendment routinely. american citizens are put in american prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms -- all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the constitution. and even the american civil liberties union (aclu), staunch defender of the rest of the bill of rights, stands by and does nothing. it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. no one else will. no one else can. will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? will we continue obeying judges who decide that the second amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their orwellian doublespeak ? or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the constitution of the united states promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortuned, and our sacred honor ? (c) 1991 by the new gun week and second amendment foundation. informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, the new gun week and second amendment foundation are credited. all other rights reserved. about the author j. neil schulman is the award-winning author of novels endorsed by anthony burgess and nobel-economist milton friedman, and writer of the cbs "twilight zone" episode in which a time-traveling historian prevents the jfk assassination. he's also the founder and president of softserv publishing, the first publishing company to distribute "paperless books" via personal computers and modems. most recently, schulman has founded the committee to enforce the second amendment (cesa), through which he intends to see the individual's right to keep and bear arms recognized as a constitutional protection equal to those afforded in the first, fourth, fifth, ninth and fourteenth amendments. j. neil schulman may be reached through: the softserv paperless bookstore, 24-hour bbs: 213-827-3160 (up to 9600 baud). mail address: po box 94, long beach, ca 90801-0094. genie address: softserv --------- end enclosed article ------------- pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 i've yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell's soup and m-16's/ar-15's and banging/marrying thirteen yuear olds. with one exception, that's a pretty good description of many of the baptists i know. the exception is that they know the difference between an m-16 and an ar-15. heck - they even know that "it looks like richard petty's stock car" doesn't mean "it's a racing stock car". they may be uncouth, but they've figured out that appearance isn't function. 
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 " a well regulated militia, being necessarry to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." what is regulated? regulated means "controlled"! how about security? while it may mean that in 1993, the relevant meaning comes from 1789. moreover, "controlled" doesn't tell you who's doing the controllling. fletcher's political works, pub'd in 1749, defines a "well-regulated militia", that being the relevant phrase, as being an armed people not under the control of govt. the wigged gents who argued about the constituion used it in that way. feel free to provide a 1790s-era reference showing a usage other than "individual right, not to be interfered with by govt". note that the first clause has a meaning - it is a restriction on govt military power. see scarry's university of penn law review article for an extended discussion. the existence of a well-regulated militia is a necessary part of that restriction, but it is not sufficient. 
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 ]>>> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. ]>>> as someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day ]>>> in texas. ]>>do you eat all your food cold? ]>ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves? very popular. ]>electric stoves outside metro-areas especially. ]ever hear about cutting off the electricity? that was done. ]how effective is an electric stove then? didn't the branch davidans have an emergency generator? oh well, i don't think brent thought of that anyway. |patrick chester (aka: claypigeon) wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| |the earth is our cradle, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever... | |people's organizations rarely stay that way... or even begin as such. | |i only speak for myself. if i *did* speak for ut, would anyone listen?| 
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 i also believe texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in usa...... in texas, you cannot carry a handgun. period. either concealed or open. currently, there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons. i don't have the details, sorry. semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph if i recall correctly, the bill would provide for concealed carry if the person takes a 15-hr dps safety course in firearms and pays a $150 fee for the license. the bill is apparently veto-proof in the house, but ltgov bullock has said it will never come to the floor of the senate and dreamboat annie has vowed to veto it if it comes to her desk. *shrug* arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 |> thank you for remembering matzada. matzada was not an insane act. it was |> a sanctification of g_d's name and the most extreme denial of tyranny |> possible. to this day the officers of the tzahal (isreal defense force) |> take their oath at the fortress. lo tepol shaynit matzadah. matzadah will |> not fall again! not anymore! recent archaeological inspection of the site presents pretty compelling evidence that the "mass suicide" at masada never occured. this evidence was so compelling tha the tzahal no long hold their secret ceremony at the fortress. * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * 
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 it's time to start building some precise questions to send to our federal elected officials and to investigative reporters in our local tv, radio and newprint media. ideally, these questions could be asked at any investigation into the batf's and fbi's participation at the waco fiasco in hopes of being resolved and, hopefully, wake up the local news media that they are not getting the entire truth from the batf and fbi. my list is up to 13 that are really nagging at my gut. the list will probably grow. 1. what were the contents of the original warrant, now sealed, that the batf obtained? 2. it is reasonable to believe that illegal firearms and/or ammunition could not be flushed down the toilet. therefore, a "no-knock" raid could be ruled out. prior to the initial assault on the complex, did a single batf agent and accompanying witness (without a contingent of assault and news media personnel) attempt to knock on the door of the branch davidian's complex and serve the warrant in a manner prescribed by law? 3. on the day of the initial assault on the complex, batf agents were aware that several small children were inside the buildings. in the ensueing gun battle, batf agents fired into a building known to contain children, killing at least one two-year old child. knowing children were present, why didn't the batf have an alternate plan and immediately retreat from the area close to the complex and implement the alternate plan rather than opening fire and jeopardizing the lives of the children in the building? 4. the fbi spokesman states that paper evidence indicates that david koresh and members of the branch davidians possessed over $200,000 in firearms and ammunition. did david koresh and the members of the branch davidians have a valid federal firearms license, were they actively participating in the legal business of selling/buying firearms and ammunition, and were any of the weapons they had illegally possessed? does this paper evidence consist only of weapons purchased or does it include legally dispossessed weapons. 5. after the original assault on the compound tragically failed, a batf spokeswoman stated "we were outgunned!". yet, tv newscasts of video tape filmed at the time of the incident show batf agents armed with mp-5 and ar-15/m16 rifles. although unclear on the video tape because of obstruction from full view by agent's bodies, they also may have had ak-47 and sks rifles. what type(s) of firearms did the batf agents have immediate access to at the scene of the original assault on the complex? 6. since there is no evidence to confirm anyone was inside the complex involuntarily, why did the fbi treat it as a "hostage" 7. along the same lines, why did the fbi use "psychological warfare" techniques, including sensory overload, sleep deprivation, and other disruptive techniques that would test the sanity of any normal person rather than using techniques aimed at placing the complex occupants into a calmer frame of mind? 8. reports indicate several of the children inside the complex were accompanied by their mothers. since it is reasonable to expect these mothers would have their children taken away from them if they came out, why did the fbi expect the mothers to just walk out and surrender themselves to the authorities? 9. agents at the scene claim to have seen members of the branch davidians setting fire to the complex. branch davidian members who survived the inferno claim the fire was started when an armored vehicle punched through the wall and knocked over a lantern which was setting on a table. video tape of the incident does show an armored vehicle punching a hole in the wall and the fire erupted almost immediately from the same general location. was the source of the fire the same room where the armored vehicle 10. fbi spokesmen are voicing the opinion that the david koresh and the members of the branch davidians committed mass suicide. yet, bodies are being discovered throughout the house and other areas within the building complex. this seems to be counter to any known mass suicides through history. what evidence does the fbi have that a mass suicide pact existed? 11. fbi director sessions stated that the massive fireball shown on the video tape was caused by the branch davidian's ammunition and/or powder cache exploding. yet, the fireball seems to be more characteristic of the type created when compressed gas or other highly volatile fuel source explodes. was any evidence found which would indicate the branch davidians had an ammunition and/or powder cache which exploded to create this fireball? if so, and if david koresh and members of the branch davidians were engaged in the legal business of selling/buying firearms, was the amount determined to be excessively greater than one would expect for someone engaged in such a legal business? 12. it is rumored that one fbi agent was extremely upset about critical news media coverage and intentionally used an armored vehicle to crush a reporter's car which had been left at the compound. is there any factual basis to this rumor and, if so, what charges will be brought against the fbi agent who performed the act? 13. fbi director sessions states that, during the final assault on the complex, "over 80 shots were fired at the vehicles." on the video tape of the incident, you can hear the drone of the armored vehicles engines. yet, there is no sound of the sharp reports that one would expect to hear if shots were fired. also, there are no indications of smoke and/or muzzle flashes appearing from the windows, buildings or other structures in the video. surely, these should be evident if the branch davidians had fired on the armored vehicles. finally, the video tape does not show any indication of paint splatter, sparks or other characteristic spray of material which should be apparent if the branch davidians had fired upon the vehicles. do any of the armored vehicles which were brought in to pump tear gas into the compound show evidence of fresh damage due to being hit by shots from high-power rifles? 14. cs gas is considered to be a chemical warfare agent. the united states has signed international treaties which prevent the use of cs gas in warfare. if the united states could not morally use cs gas against saddam hussein and his troops, why is it morally acceptable to use the same agent against citizens of our own land? 15. on april 21, fbi spokesmen state that at least 3 bodies discovered in the complex had bullet wounds to the head indicating they had been murdered or had committed suicide. on april 22, the county coroner claims he knows nothing about any bodies found with bullet wounds to the head. were any of the victims bodies found within the burned out complex have bullet wounds to the head? * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * 
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 look, if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people, while not interfering with good people, i think we'd all be for it. the problem is, the methods we're using now don't do the trick. don't manufacture them. don't sell them. don't import them. some guns will get through, but far fewer, and far less people will die because of them. hunting weapons could be allowed, of course, as long as they are big, and bulky, and require reloading after a few shots (how many times can you shoot at the same animal, anyways one assumes they are moving!) first of all let's assume that you are right that fewer guns would make it in to the country, that sounds great (to those that see guns as inherently evil) except then every one of those guns would be in the hands of someone who obviously couldn't care less about following the law, after all they got the gun illegally, so is more likely to commit a crime with that gun. great then everyone with a gun is likely to use it in a crime, nice system. now as to reducing the number of guns coming into society by making it illegal to manufacture, sell, or import them in this coutry, let me use a parallel for empiric evidence. the amount of cocaine in this country is far less since its manufacture, sale, and importation was out lawwed. if that last statement is true then perhaps we should consider your plan. this could also apply to drugs in general. plain old joe 
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 the u.s. government's campaign of persecution and genocide against the branch davidians was a resounding success. heil clinton! heil reno! the gestapo is alive and well and living in washington, d.c. kevin, who agrees that david koresh was probably a first-rate nutcase but who firmly believes that the bill of rights guaranteed his his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is guilty of violating his civil rights and of 1st degree murder. ok, which small, under-represented-in-congress religious group are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their church with a rolled up copy of the constitution? i think i'm going to be sick now. . . 
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 though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns, i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words "well regulated" in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment. what interpretations? just read it as it's written. "a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." where does it say "the right of the people to be members of a militia shall not be infringed" or "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?" nowhere. "well-educated businessmen being necessary to the ability of the nation to compete in the international marketplace, the right of the people to attend schools shall not be infringed." would you "interpret" this to mean that only businessmen should have a protected right to attend schools? why or why not? 
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 hi. i've just finished reading s414, and have several questions about the brady bills (s414 and hr1025). good! 1. _are_ these the current versions of the brady bill? what is the status of these bills? i've heard they're "in committee". how close is that to being made law? not very. thanks to the filibuster in the senate, things are backing up. the house judiciary is going to start looking at our friends from the atf, so that bill will be held up a little, too. note: things can change quickly. 2. s414 and hr1025 seem fairly similar. are there any important differences i missed? 3. s414 seems to have some serious loopholes: a. s414 doesn't specify an "appeals" process to wrongful denial during the waiting period, other than a civil lawsuit(?) (s414 has an appeals process once the required instant background check system is established, but not before). i thought there was a correction process in both bills for both parts. b. the police are explicitly not liable for mistakes in denying/approving using existing records (so who would i sue in "a" above to have an inaccurate record corrected?) very correct. c. s414 includes an exception-to-waiting-period clause for if a person can convince the local chief law-enforcement officer (cleo) of an immediate threat to his or her life, or life of a household member. but s414 doesn't say exactly what is considered a "threat", nor does it place a limit on how long the cleo takes to issue an exception welcome to the world of "the privileged". true? have i misunderstood? any other 'holes? how about no compulsion to allow purchase if there is no evidence against? 4. with just s414, what's to stop a person with a "clean" record from buying guns, grinding off the serial numbers, and selling them to crooks? at minimum, what additional laws are needed to prevent this? it is already illegal to do this. 'seems at min. a "gun counting" scheme would be needed (e.g., "john doe owns n guns"). so, if s414 passes, i wouldn't be surprised to see legislation for stricter, harder-to-forge i.d.'s plus national gun registration, justified by a need to make the brady bill work. this is the "health" card. or so some "paranoids" claim. i say that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. :-) 1/2 please comment. i'm mainly interested in specific problems with the current legislation--i don't mean to start a general discussion of the merits of any/all waiting-period bills ever proposed. dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 i just want to make 2 points: 1) the fbi is not stupid. these people are chosen for their intelligence, education, loyalty to the government, etc. they are given much intensive training. so, to all of you who refuse to believe there could be any conspiracy here, and say that the fbi was just stupid, i say i don't believe it. 2) the fbi has acces to the latest in audio and video technology -- the latest digital systems. the fbi can manufacture evidence. need a tape of koresh saying, "light the fire", and you can have one. need a thermal imaging video of three people lighting fires, and through the magic of computer graphics, you can have one. the thing is, manufacturing these pieces of evidence takes time. so it may be a few more days before we get to see them. or maybe we just haven't heard any tapes or seen any fbi video is because it is: 1) classified 2) too gruesome for our eyes 3) lost/got coffee spilled on it dwayne jacques fontenot btw, i get my information from live video feeds. i read the papers too, but almost everything in them contradicts what i have seen with my own eyes. 
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 or the cultists...) i think i'll quote the bbc quoting (actually voice interview) one of the two british survivors. he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall/roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan. if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the burning building? i don't know, why? this is the ap story from fri morning. as the walls came tumbling down and tear gas filled the air, cult leader david koresh sprang into action. he left his third-floor bedroom and began looking around the house, making sure women and children were secure and checking that everyone had their gas masks on properly. within hours, the compound became an inferno. nine branch davidians excaped. this is their story, gleaned from lawyers who spoke with six of them who are jailed on charges that include conspiracy and murder. that day the six said a portable radio offered the only contact with the outside world since koresh's right-hand man, steve schneider, ripped out the compounds's phone line after fbi agents called before dawn monday saying this was the cults last chance: come out or prepare to get forced out. they kept their word. by dawn, tanks were battering the mount carmel compound, punching for hours to creat holes for tear gas to enter. the bd meanwhile proceeded with their daily routines. strapped into gas masks, the women did laundry. others read bibles in their rooms. the 17 children, all under 10, remained by their mothers' sides. still, it was hard to ignore what was happening around them. each time a tank rammed the poorly-constructed building it shook violently. cult members dodges falling gypsum wallboard and doors. hundreds of gas canisters hurled in from the armored vehicles were filling the air with noxious fumes. the flying canisters were more frightening than the tanks. at least one man was hit in the face. the gas began filling the air, driven by heavy gusts of wind coming through windows and the holes the tanks made. scattered throughout the house, the cult members made no efforts to gather. then the fbi sent in its biggest weapon -- a massive armored vehicle headed for a chamber, lined with cinder blocks, where authorities hoped to find koresh and schneider and fire tear gas directly at them. here the cult members' story diverges from the government's version. the fbi says cult members set fires in three places. but each of the six cult members, in separate discussions with lawyers, consistently gave versions at odds with the fbi's account. they say the tank flattened a barrel of propane, spilling its contents. and as the tank thundered through the house, it tipped over lit lanterns, spitting flames that ignited the propane and other flammables. the home of used lumber, plywood, and wallboard tacked together with tar paper was vulnerable. the building erupted. nine bd's escaped jumping through windows and dashing through other openings. others died groping in the blackness. 
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 a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. maybe i'm too "religious," but when i see a bill to "establish a right," i wince. keep in mind, what the law giveth, the law can taketh away. hey, guys. you're absolutely correct, and well on the way to winning this battle ... and losing the war. yes, there are serious philosophical flaws in hr 1276. technical ones, too -- how'd you like to sue the feds, lose, and have to pay _their_ "reasonable attorney's fee" ... ? :-) still, i have one basic question: compared to what we've _got_ is hr 1276 (a) better, or (b) worse? this one shouldn't even take you three guesses. compared to the second amendment? i think it's worse. the problem is, the devil is in the details. you know, the brady bill sounds like a "good idea" too, until you discover that there is no check, and that the police don't have to allow your purchase even if you check out, and that you have no recourse if they don't. are there any loopholes here? i'm no lawyer, i can't be sure. i would have never noticed the second one mentioned above in the brady bill, for example. the more words involved, the more details. what was that saying about abraham lincoln requiring 200 words to free the slaves, and the modern congress requiring 3,000,000 words to describe price controls on rice? if there's a good enough show of support for hr 1276, maybe for a change _we_ could be the ones saying "it's a reasonable first step" ... that only works with bad laws. good laws are like good computer programs. quality has to be written in from the start, not added on later. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (ap, etc.) that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires. it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause. the only folks claiming this are the atf/fbi who have an interest in putting the blame on the bd's. wake up. what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident. i believe the moves made were right and proper, but i still have some problems with some of the tactics. after watching the abc special on it tonight, as well as cnn and nightline, i question some of the atf and fbi actions. right and proper? how? it was fubar from day 1. 1) could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb. 28th raid? from all independent sources. yes. 2) could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome. it would have hurt nothing to wait and the result could hardly have been 3) were fbi actions (blaring loudspeakers, etc.) the "right" course of action? sure, it you want to someone you claim is a dangerous paranoid even more paranoid. and a few other questions. like i said, i believe the actions taken, in general, were proper. but i still have some reservations. one other point, i'm no fan of janet reno, but i do like the way she had the "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility. seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue. and what makes you think that "waffle boy" didn't tell her to take the wrap. it was job preservation not "balls". + wayne j. warf -- wwarf@ucs.indiana.edu -- i speak for myself only + |*clinton*gore*cia*fbi*dea*assassinate*bomb*wod*bor*atf*irs*resist*nsa* | |*christian*god*satan*apocalypse*zog*nazi*socialist*communist*explosive*| +*fundamentalist*revolution*nsc*federal reserve*constitution*gold*fema* + 
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 could someone email me a usnail address for the nra? i'd like to write them a letter encouraging them to see to it very emphatically that the 2nd amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended. national rifle association 1600 rhode island ave. nw washington, dc 20036-3268 1-800-368-5714 (membership) | jeff strait | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu | | university of illinois | phone: (217) 333-6444 | | "if you ladies leave this island, if you survive basic recruit | | training, you will be a weapon, a minister of death praying for war" | 
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 i'm writting letters to my congresscritters and was wondering if there is any reason(s) why i should not support the following bills, other than the previous comments about s.458. just checking before i mail the letter to make sure i don't support something that i really shouldn't. i strongly support the following laws currently being considered in congress as they would either have a positive effect towards reducing crime, or re- enforce our constitutional right under the 2nd amendment. * s. 441 (campbell) to amend title 18, united states code, to provide a mandatory minimum sentence for the unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, a person who is addicted to, or an unlawful user of, a controlled substance, or a transferor or receiver of a stolen firearm, to increase the general penalty for violation of federal firearms laws, and to increase the enhanced penalties provided for the possession of a firearm in connection with a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, and for other * s.458 (smith) to restore the second amendment rights of all americans. * s.488 (specter) to provide federal penalties for drive-by shootings. * s.504 (kohl) to amend section 924 of title 18, united states code to make it a federal crime to steal a firearm or explosives in interstate or foreign commerce. bill vojak vojak@icebucket.stortek.com nra, ila, colorado firearms coalition here's a story, bout a man named brady, who took a .22 bullet in his head. even though he can act perfectly normal, he prefers to pretend he's brain dead. here's a story, bout a woman named brady, who had nothing to do but sit around all day. then her husband became a media martyr, now she wants to take all your guns away. the brady bunch, the brady bunch, this is how we got stuck with the brady bunch. . . . . 
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 1. make a new newsgroup called talk.politics.guns.paranoid or talk.politics.guns.they'r.here.to.take.me.away well, may i point out that paranoia is an irrational fear, without basis in reality. as we've seen here in the us, there is nothing irrational about it. perhaps you folks in finland have been down on your knees being good little boys and girls so that the former soviet union didn't come across the border and stomp the snot out of you for so long that you just figure everybody should be so accomodating to tyranny. 2. move all postings about waco and burn to (guess where).. 3. stop posting #### on this newsgroup if you don't like us talking about political issues involving attacks on people for owning guns, don't read talk.politics.guns. we are all so glad you're trying to save us from the evil goverment, but would you mail this #### in regular mail to let's say 1000 people ???? nobody's trying to save you from anything, so butt out. i couldn't care less about what somebody on the other side of the world thinks about this. of course, you do have a right to an opinion... but i've always figured that opinons are like hemmorhoids. every asshole's got them, i just don't care about yours. * i remember what i was doing * bad boy, whatcha gonna do * * when i heard that jfk had been shot. * whatcha gonna do * * will you remember the battle of waco? * when they come for you... * ken whitehead (kdw@odin.icd.ab.com) 
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 could y'all please stop posting this stuff to tx.general. tx.politics is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs. thanks. cathy foulston + rice university + network & systems support + cathyf@rice.edu 
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 according to wnci 97.9 fm radio this morning, dayton, ohio is operating a gun "buy back". they are giving $50 for every functional gun turned in. they ran out of money in one day, and are now passing out $50 vouchers of some sort. they are looking for more funds to keep operating. another media-event brought to you by hci. is there something similar pro-gun people can do ? for example, pay $100 to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm ? sounds a bit tacky, but hey, whatever works. larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 try the firearms archive. larry cipriani's instructions follow. by the way, thanks for the archive larry.. there are a few bills not yet in the archive, but these are the main ones we need to fight. and thanks to david robinson for scanning so many of them in for us! the subdirectory bills are stored in was moved from "congress" to "congress", that is: godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu:/usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba/congress larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 |>from article <c5t9ia.6f9@dscomsa.desy.de>, by hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (phill hallam-baker): |>> if anyone wants to understand the paranoid mindset of koresh i offer you |>> talk.politics.guns. there you can dredge the sewers of minds so hung |>> up on power and ego trips that they bend reality arround their own |>> particular set of beleifs. |>just what the hell do you base that ludicrous claim on? there are |>*plenty* of fine, decent people people who read/post to t.p.g. if |>any of these people are paranoid it is because of people like you. hey dude you are making me paranoid! what an argument!!! |>> i long ago gave up arguing the case for arms control directly. instead |>> i invite people to ask themselves, would you want to be in a room full |>> of the occupants of talk.politics.guns, their personal armouries and |>> attempt to enter a discussion with them? |>i'd have a spot of tea with them. :) you probably gave up on arguing the |>case for arms control directly long ago because posters who *know* |>what they are talking about (e.g., frank crary) disproved all your |>arguments for why more gun control is needed. so, you gave up because |>you know they are right and you couldn't refute their answers. no, frank crary's arguments are based on the assumption that most people are sane, normal people. tpg disproves this of gun owners. usenet as a whole disproves it of humanity as a whole. we now have proof positive that guns don't make you safer. buy a lot of guns and you either get shot in the no knock raid or get the fbi to burn down your house. see even in the paranoid mindset of tpg there are good reasons to support gun control. cuddles 'n kisses 
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 obnly something like 12% of guns used in crime in the us are purchased from legitimate dealers (and not necessarily by the person who used them in the crime). so we already have that much "gun control." i've seen this mentioned a number of times. i'm curious; what is the source for this statistic? the number bounces between 2% and 18%, depending on the study quoted and the type of gun being studied. some cites: a recent batf study (titled "protecting america, yes") surveyed 471 career criminals and found that only 7% of guns used in violent crimes were purchased from retail dealers. national institute of justice research in brief november 1986 the armed criminal in america by james d. wright (1) legitimate firearms retailers play only a minor role as direct sources of handguns for adult felony offenders. only about one-sixth of the gun-owning felons obtained their most recent handguns through a customary retail transaction involving a licensed firearms dealer. the remainder -- five out of six -- obtained them via informal, off-the-record transactions involving friends and associates, family members, and various black market outlets. the means of acquisition from these informal sources included cash purchase, swaps and trades, borrowing and renting, and often theft. the criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply. independence issue paper no. 4- 91 independence institute 14142 denver west parkway #101 golden, co 80401 (303) 279-6536 why gun waiting periods threaten public safety by david b. kopel the basic problem with waiting periods is shown by a bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms study of gun dealer sales in des moines and greenville. the study found that about one to two percent of sales were to dangerous criminals.[51] in short, waiting periods have no statistically noticeable impact on any type of crime because only a tiny fraction of crime guns are purchased at retail by ineligible buyers. 51. bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, assistant director of criminal enforcement, memorandum to director, july 10, 1975 (greenville survey; of 20,047 names submitted to fbi for record checks, 68 had felony convictions; of those, 41 had not been represented by counsel at their conviction or who committed crimes in the distant past; twenty-seven buyers were prosecuted) (of the 1.3% of buyers selected for prosecution, .9% had non-violent felony convictions, and .4% had violent convictions). bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, assistant director for criminal enforcement, memorandum to director, may 8, 1975 (of 374 records checked, 39 were purchasers with felony records who were not appropriate for prosecution because of age or non-violent nature of felony; six purchasers were prosecuted). independence issue paper no. 12-91 the assault weapon panic: political correctness" takes aim at the constitution by eric morgan and david kopel testimony before congress revealed that most "assault weapons" in the hands of criminals were obtained through illegal channels.{97} the testimony is consistent with the national institute of justice's research findings based on studies of felons in state prisons. the nu study, authored by sociologists james d. wright and peter rossi found that only sixteen percent of criminals had obtained their most recent handgun from a gun store. (the figures included purchases by legal surrogates, rather than directly by the criminal.) wright and rossi, who had begun their research as firm proponents of gun control, concluded that no set of controls on retail purchases, and probably not even full scale gun prohibition, would reduce criminal use of guns. wright and rossi suggested that lawmakers concerned about gun crime directly target the black market in criminal guns, and leave the legitimate retail market alone.{98} not surprisingly, wright believes that the consequences of current "assault weapon" legislation on street violence are likely to be ineffective.{99} he warns that gun controls aimed at ordinary citizens are less likely to reduce the pool of criminal guns than to provide organized crime with lucrative new business.{100} 6. _see, _e.g., the anti-drug, assault weapons limitation act of 1989. s. rep. no. 160, 101st. cong., 1st. sess. 6-8 (1989) [hereinafter senate report] (introduced by senator deconcini to reduce semiautomatic firearms abuse by drug traffickers and violent criminals); roberti-roos assault weapons control act of 1989, cal. penal code $$ 12275-12290 (west 1990) [hereinafter roberti- roos]; md. ann. code art. 27 $$ 442,481e (1989) (placing greater restrictions on 17 varieties of "assault weapons," and providing punishments for failure to comply or attempts to evade). 97. senate report, _supra note 6, at 17. 98. james wright & peter rossi, armed and considered dangerous: a survey of felons and their firearms (new york: aldine de gruyter, 1986). 99. _lock _and _load _for _the _gunfight _of _'89, u.s. news & world rep., march 27, 1989, at 9 [hereinafter _gunfight]. wright also said, "if criminals can get all the drugs they want, they can get guns, too." _id. 100. james wright, "second thoughts about gun control," 91 _the _public _interest (spring 1988), at 30-3 1. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 the following is quoted from the tail end of a (rather condescending) article about paxton quigley, that appeared in us snooze and world lies, (sorry... i think it was in the wall street journal...) and was repeated in the colorado (people's) daily, a student newspaper at the university of colorado at boulder. "a study of residential gunsot deaths in king county, wash., found that a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner, spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder. the "used to kill" is the heart of the misinformation. it's one of those technically accurate phrasings that conveys the wrong impression. what mr. quiqley is more than aware of, i'm sure, is that when people read this they think violent arguments where one member of the family grabs a gun and shoots another, thereby creating a tragic situation which could easily have been avoided had the gun not been there, or a tragic accident, especially involving a child. unfortunately, that's not the way things stack up. the majority of that 43 "times" (37 i believe) are suicides. that is, someone intentionally took a firearm and shot themselves intending to kill themselves. and why it's popular to try and blame suicides on guns, the evidence doesn't support this. internal studies, as well as comparative studies with other countries, indicate that cultural factors far outweigh whether a person will kill themselves or not. (japan, for instance, has a slightly higher rate than the u.s. there people jump off buildings.) according to the national crime survey, 40% of violent crime is commited by "non-strangers," which mistakenly has been generalized regarding the king county study to mean, "friends and family." that is, mr. quigley, and others who quote this statistic, are banking on the mental image that a "friend, family member, or child," equates to a loving relationship, and that it was cut short in a moment of anger. unfortunately, all too often husbands beat and kill wives, children assault parents, or vice-versa. most rapes are commited by someone known to the victim, for instance. essentially, that a gun was used against a "friend" or family member doesn't mean they weren't trying to hurt the other person. crime is highest among poor urban families, and those are also the areas most "at risk" for family problems, especially violent ones. a son in a gang may not be as loving toward his parents if they disapprove than a suburban kid might. finally, it hinges on the fallacy that a dead intruder is the only value of a self-defense firearm. using the minimum figures i worked out using the ncs i got about an 80:1 ratio between deadly self-defenses (justifiable homicides) and with-gun self-defenses. between the fbi uniform crime report and the ncs there's an enormous amount of data and anybody with the calculator can crunch the numbers. as such it is incorrect to assume that a dead body is the only valid means of determining the success of such a defense, since according to the ncs (which has been considered by many to seriously under-report defenses) there were far more successful with-gun defenses than intruders not it also confines itself to the home, where attack by a "friend or family member" is far, far more likely, and excludes any defense which occurs outside the home. (i believe a large number occur in businesses.) studies by the western psychiatric institute, in pittsburgh, found that the mere presence of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member will commit suicide, even in the absence of psychiatric illness." i have not seen the exact data for this, so i can't comment. i will point out canada's and japan's suicide rate as indications that culture far more than firearm availability affect suicide rates. there was also a comparative study between canada (for what it's worth, considering the difficulty of comparing across cultural lines) published in the new england journal of medicine (i can get the exact cite if you need it) that concluded that restrictive firearm laws would not significantly impact the over-all suicide rate. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 i have been at a shooting range where gang members were "practicing" shooting. how do "we" know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law-abiding menacing minorities. btw - why the sneer quotes? "we" know because the area that the gun shop/shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago. that is a gang infested area. so? kratz was there - does that mean that he's a gang member? even in the most gang-infested areas, most of the residents are not gang-members. that only minorities have gangs? not so. as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren't just practicing for marksmanship. how was it obvious? were they not trying to hit the target? or, does kratz confuse "marksmanship" with "trying to simulate a post"? if so, that excludes self-defense shooting, but the rest of us understand that that exclusion would be an error. (it excludes a lot of legit "gun games" as well.) don't know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting. sounds like practical pistol or maybe ipsc. it also sounds like how a self-defense shooter might well practice. the only things that action excludes are hunting and "like a post" shooting. kratz should get out more often. 
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 look, folks, i don't know what happened in waco. i do not claim the bds are angels, i never did. koresh may very well be the devil incarnate. i just don't know. but i do know that i must question any single source of information, such as we have here. and i must question even harder given that it is single source at the insistance of that very government. what ever else happened at waco, that is perhaps the biggest evil done. and even more so in light of the discrepencies turning up between the federal officials and the state officials. but what i really don't understand is the hoards of devoted government worshipers who believe the government could not possibly do any wrong. they are fanatic to the point of making things up, such as brent's microwave oven disclaim of the bd's using fire for food heating. i am hard pressed to see any real difference between the claimed power koresh held over the bds, and the demonstrated power the government holds over those rapid apologists. jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 the colorado daily recently reprinted the wall street journal's article on paxton quigley, including the nefarious little paragraph the journal tacked onto the end. after recieving much assistance from various t.p.g. type folks, i wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph, and surprise, surprise, surprise, they published it. the text follows. the colorado daily, btw, is the university of colorado (boulder) student (i think) newspaper... not exactly a big coup, but every little bit, i guess... (the title was the only thing they changed/added) "gun stats" the daily recently reprinted an article from the wall street journal, primarily concerned with paxton quigley, author of "armed and female." the article, in turn, cites a misleading statistic that was originally reported in the new england journal of medicine. the article states, "a study... found that a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner, spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder." this is an often-quoted statistic, and it is misleading for sev- eral reasons, outlined below: the study gives the impression that, if you own a gun, the likelihood that you will successfully use it to defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned against you. the study, however, fails to take into account cases where a law-abiding citizen uses a gun to thwart a crime, without actually killing the perpe- the study actually refers to 'acquaintances' rather than 'friend'. this would include the friendly neigh- borhood thug who shows up like clockwork, every month, the second your grandmother cashes her social security check. possibly an acquaintance, but hardly a the nejm study is based on the immediate dis- position of cases and fails to take into account cases originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be self-defense. especially considering the small sample size (396), taking these events into account has a sub- stantial effect on the 43:1 ratio quoted. criminologist gary kleck gives us a slightly dif- erent statistic: a gun is 33 times more likely to be used, successfully, by a private citizen against an aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all. further, per- sons defending themselves from aggression by using a gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by some other means, or who offer no resistance at all. statistics available from the fbi and other agencies also show that a gun is 245 times more likely to be used by a non-criminal to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit criminal homicide, 535 times more likely to be used to defend against a criminal threat than to accidentally kill anybody, and 50 times more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit suicide. it is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics. one has to consider carefully what questions were asked by those gathering the data before one can draw an accu- rate conclusion from them. d.f. taylor cu department of chemistry and biochemistry spooksmoke: revolution, assasination, thorium, cobalt-60, clintin, cia, nsa, shc dod #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu send me something even you can't read... -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.2 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1/40vpjmmntfr+vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn/v/qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4= =s5ib -----end pgp public key block----- 
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 the ballad of david koresh. at concord and at waco the tyrant's minions failed. though they all died in the fire koresh's people have prevailed. good irony. the waco finale was on april 19, patriot's day. on that day 218 years earlier, the militias of concord, mass., and other nearby towns repelled a gun-control raid by the then-current colonial government ... 
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 note!!! my posting was in reply to those about fbi torching the plasce after filling it with napalm, and arrested people dissapering. about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can't handle situations like this. the way it went reminds me of 'stun' bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter. (whole block went up in flames, 5 died...) it doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe they just screwed up ??? i don't think we've got a conspiracy on our hands, or anything vaugely similar. i do think that the feds showed a distinct lack of both intelligence and disregard for others safety throughout this whole i do think the fbi and the batf screwed up big. what made me really concerned was fbi director william sessions being on cnn engaging in what could only be called spin control before the place had even cooled down. evertyhing had literally blown up in their faces and i felt there had to be something more important he should have been doing... david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 if anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors, you can put me down for $1000.00 under the conditions above seems to me folks, that if you are so interested in acquiring cnn, just buy your $1000 worth of stock today. it's being traded everyday. after you own your piece, we can work on the proxy votes later. it's probably even a good investment. chuck harris - wa3uqv chuck@eng.umd.edu 
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 i don't remember the figures exactly, but there were about 3500 deaths in texas in 1991 that was caused by guns..... how about "firearm related." this is more than those beeing killed in car-accidents! texas is unusual in this regard. it would be nice to reduce them both, though. as texas doesn't appear to have an murder rate that much higher than the national average, i would expect it is a result of a much higher suicide rate. *i* should not suffer because of others.... be nice if you didn't have to suffer at all. we all agree on this one, but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we'll have to give up *some* of our 'freedom' (note the ''). here's where we run into a problem. i am perfectly willing to have government regulation on something which is likely to cause others harm. what we're discussing, though, is the extreme regulation of a large group in order to target a small group, and i don't think that's do you have an insurance?? then you'll have to pay because of what others do... do you buy anything?? you are paying for those who return goods, steal or even those who gets a bonus... do you live with other people?? then you 'can't' do ererything you'd want (burping/farting playing music loud) does this, then, justify anything? at some point you have to draw a line (at least to my way of thinking) where the government must have something a little more substantial than a set of percentages with which to punish an individual. where do *you* draw the line? or is there one? one state (don't remember which, texas??) tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month. think you all know what happened..... virginia. it passed. i respect the right to defend yourself, but that right should not inflict on other people. does it? it seems like you all realize that you have a problem in america, the only problem is that you won't take the car away from the drunk driver, you hope to cure him first. cute analogy. the u.s. doesn't treat drunk driving like a serious crime. however, we also don't confiscate cars of people who drink. we also don't confiscate *all* cars because some people drink and drive. it's the core of the legal system that in order to punish an individual (and i'd call property confiscation a punishment) you must have evidence against that individual. that is, it isn't enough to show that the majority of people convicted of murder are white in order to convict a particular white guy of murder. hope life comfirms to the standard of winnie the poh. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 i have not made up my mind about waco, but there sure seems to be a group devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of own. they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken. kinda reminds you of the bds, doesn't it? go to hell. i'm no "government [-] following fanatic." your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance. eloquently, if somewhat shrilly, put. what were they supposed to do? just let him be? well, why not? fuck him. fuck the atf, too. they should've done it right the first time. you have a way with words. and you sure get shrill on cue. joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54743">
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 # >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it. for heating purposes because of the weather in texas. everyone now claims that it was for cooking. stop and think about this. this whole thread is rediculous. who cares if they had a stove going or not. does it matter if they had a stove burning, or lanterns burning, or candles burning, or someone smoking, etc, etc, etc. the premise is that the fbi was filling the house with napalm so that it would catch fire. this is crazy. fbi was not pumping napalm into the davidians home. you will have to have pretty damn strong evidence to convince me of that. i can believe mass suicide/murder by koresh. i can believe an accident by the davidians. i can believe an accident by the fbi. i can easily believe mass stupidity on all sides but i can not believe that the fbi lit this fire intentionally. no way. i tend to agree, but i would like a better explanation of why the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate. i saw this in realtime. it concerns me that the fbi "appeared" to not be too interested in stopping the fire after it started, and actually started flying hueys around the compound, which had to add in some small part to the winds driving the fire. -- chris bartz (chrisb@natinst.com) jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 i'm sick to my stomach as i write this. the bd compound is on fire, and will burn to the ground in minutes. i used exactly this one-word reply, to suggest a likely ending to the siege several weeks ago. but like masada, this wasn't entirely a government action: the defenders held out as long as they could, and then killed themselves, their families and their children rather than surrender. israel calls the action of the zelots "heroic", and trains their army to follow this example. now that someone has repeated this action in modern times, what do we call it? liberals and supporters of clinton say that costs made the action steve podleski | phone: 216-433-4000 nasa lewis research center | cleveland, ohio 44135 | email: pspod@hooch.lerc.nasa.gov 
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 nut case panics!!realizes he's made a complete fool of himself in front of thousands of netters!!!backs away from earlier rash statements!!!!god have mercy on him!!!! i thought we were discussing koresh here, not president clinton. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> dave 1 clinton 0 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54749">
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 go to hell. i'm no "government [-] following fanatic." your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance. what were they supposed to do? just let him be? once upon a time, that's exactly what they would have done & everyone could have just gone on living a peaceful (if well armed) life. what is it that makes people think they have the right -not- to just leave others be? `,` "innocence, joy, and squeezable fun for everyone" - toys `,` `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,` 
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 you seem to make two points. no one ultimately oversees the federal you mention, and since koresh "apparently" has a different view point from baptist upbringing, then he is not worthy of protection from religious persecution. as to being the messiah, is not christ within us all? must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion. baptists are a cult, two, btw, under most of the definitions in the of "cult". i've yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell's soup and m-16's/ar-15's and banging/marrying thirteen yuear olds. i don't recall saying baptists do any of that. though i suppose some do. and none of them are listed in the dictionary as characteristics of a cult. my mother stockpiled campbells soup when it was on sale. you're a sorry son of a bitch if you can't draw a distinction between these two things. you are an intolerent, foul-mouthed human. you sound like you are ready to join the kkk or neo-nazis, with a narrow mind like yours. people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren't deserved of it. get a life and chill on the paranoia. far from it, i defend the rights of anyone to be different under our constitution, which was formed in part to protect religious cults which had been persecuted in england before migrating here to be free. you are the one endangering our constitution. joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54751">
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 well, after 2 days of hearing that 3 of the bd bodies had been shot in the head (horrors! another jonestown! crazed cultists! child abusers! whackos in waco!), last night the medical examiner was on tv and was pretty vehement in denying that any of them had bullet wounds... he seemed just a tad upset at the feds for having spread that rumor. funny, the medical examiner today stated that there was no evidence one way or another that there were bullet wounds -- not a single autopsy has been performed, so all reports are deemed speculative. including reports that there were no bullet wounds. before long, i think all the kneejerk government apologists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they were misled. before long, i think all the kneejerk conspiracy theorists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they mislead themselves. also, pretty disappointed at being ignored by the coutnry. | the koresh cult standoff is over ... may his victims recquiescat in pace | | (the above is a net.moment of silence) | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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 apparently needing to clarify his comments from thursday, dr. nizam plawaby (spelling?), the medical examiner for tarrant county, texas, who has authority in the waco deaths, stated that since no autopsies had been performed, there is no evidence for bullet wounds, or evidence against bullet wounds. janet reno also stated that she had never been told of bullet wounds by anyone in the justice department. | the koresh cult standoff is over ... may his victims recquiescat in pace | | (the above is a net.moment of silence) | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54755">
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 yeah, as information trickles in... funny how that works... funny, yeah, funny how you didn't wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of "facts" before proclaiming the bd's burned themselves to death. if you won't believe anything the government says, and the press is not reliable according to the same logic, then what do you base your statements on? wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia? it is not a matter of dis-belief but a matter of which of their constantly (and radically) changing stories we are to believe. steve b. <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members. correction: the *fbi* *says* that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members. since the press was kept miles away, we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government's claims in this matter. indeed. larry king had the two attorneys (whose clients are now dead) of koresh and another davidian on his show last night. their discussions with the survivors differ from the fbi account. the attorneys say that they were told that the tanks knocked over lanterns in the compound which started the fires. government spokespeople have lied and contradicted each other throughout this whole affair. i'll wait for some better evidence before i form an opinion. paul hager hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu "i would give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake." --from _a_man_for_all_seasons_ by robert bolt 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54772">
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 oh? how about the press? if the batf & fbi were going to shoot people leaving a burning building, don't you think they would get rid of the press first? oh, you mean something like moving the press back to a single location, 2 miles away from the "compound"? the press was allowing that doesn't count as getting rid of the press. getting rid of the press would mean getting them far enough away so that they wouldn't be able to see what is going on. --tim smith 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54781">
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 wrong about the whole guns-for-protection mindset, it ignores the systemic effects of cumulative individual actions. if you want fire insurance on your house that's prudent and it has no effect on me; but if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the backcountry it makes me, and anyone else who doesn't chose to protect himself in this manner, pretty f**king nervous. why? if you're not a threat, you're not affected at all. i mean, take this to its logical conclusion, suppose we all carried handguns all the time, for protection from all the other people carrying handguns. would we collectively be, or feel, safer? hell no. we'd feel a lot more insecure. why? i note that the available psych info says that feelings of security increase. the victimization stats say that that increase is rational. another systemic effect of all the "good" people protecting themselves is that the "bad" people are going to modify their behavior in response: yes, they are, but how? they're going to be much itchier and much more willing to kill people in the course of routine muggings if they think their nope - that doesn't happen. instead the switch (among those who change behaviors) to property crimes. that's an improvement even if the economic take is unchanged. sure - not everyone switches, but they were killing before. 
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 i have also heard about hci claiming thant anyone they get an address from is a member. if this is the case their membership rolls are grossly inflated and we should not call them and give them a name and address to add to their already false rolls. perhaps if you could get a copy of their existing membership, then pretend to be an existing member, do that several thousand times, you could hurt hci. but names are power. remeber the nra uses the fact that it has 3 million paid members in order to flex its muscles. perhaps politicians don't realize the lying tactics of hci, wait a minute, hci learned it from politicians.... 
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 # so the blue press suggests that we bankrupt hci by requesting information # and the concern by list members is that hci will claim everyone that calls # as a new member. i think they will. i also think they will claim a new # mandate to ban all firearms from the solar system wheter we call and ask for # information or not! # on the other hand, with due respect to the editor of the blue press, just # becaue mike makes damned good presses, dies, powder scales, and got tired of # lee's atacks does not mean that every dillon fan follows what mike calls for # like he was karesh and we were transdillidians! # our local state assemblyman has called for a complete ban on all non-bolt # action military rifles and all assault weapons, a 7 day wait for purchase # permits { it currently takes 10 to 14 working days here in nc } and one # permit/year. the flood of calls he got was 7 for and 3 against. guess who # called supporting his move? guess what ila is doing? right? # chl 
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 }dillon has published a letter in the blue press telling people }"how to bankrupt hci" by requesting information from them. }last time this idea went around in rec.guns, a couple of people }said that hci counts all information requestors as "members". }can anyone confirm or deny this? }if true, what's the impact of hci getting a few thousand new }members? last i heard, hci had something like 250k members to the nra's 3 million. if true, and they want to play duelling mandates, well ... the polymath (aka: jerry hollombe, m.a., cdp, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) head robot wrangler at citicorp laws define crime. 3100 ocean park blvd. (310) 450-9111, x2483 police enforce laws. santa monica, ca 90405 citizens prevent crime. 
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 |>would somebody please post evidence that the gun control act of |>1968 is "a verbatim transcription" of a nazi law? |the "evidence" is that the two laws are basically identical. |however, that's not evidence that one is a copy of the other. |there's no evidence that the 68 gca's authors used the nazi law as a |guide. yes, they ended up with roughly the same thing, but that comes |from their shared goal, disarming those menacing minorities. i thought the same thing too, until jpfo's rkba article in the latest guns & ammo at the newstands. this article makes it certain that sen. thomas dodd (d-md?) back before 1968 definitely asked for a translation of the german weapons laws back then. read the article, and see what you think of jpfo's argument. they note that ted kennedy and john dingell are among the three of the originals left from the 1968 stuff, and they are asking that folks request of john dingell that he introduce legislation to lift gca '68, something which i would support whole- heartedly! |-andy can someone post a general idea of what gca '68 does? 
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 you know, i was reading 18 u.s.c. 922 and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out. say u.s.c. 922 : (1) except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun. well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a "person" might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution. so, what i don't understand is how a statute like 922 can be enforced on an individual. so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess. just passing a law does not make it law. everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court. so, has it ever gone to court, not just your run of the mill "ok i had it i am guilty, put me in jail" has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn't have that right? brian sheets _ /| "truck?! what truck?" support engineer \`o_o' atlas telecom inc. ( ) -raiders of the lost ark brians@atlastele.com u i'm not a lawyer but to the best of my understanding, the congress has no more rights than what is enumerated in the constitution. that is the prime reason why the national firearms act is based on collecting revenue. since the congress has the authority to levy taxes, the nfa is a tax act and the registration requirement within it is to assist in that tax collection. u.s.c 922, in order to be constitutional, must have a basis on a particular authority granted to the congress by the constitution. congress can not arbitrarily ban a substance or product. that is why prohibition came into effect, only by passing an ammendment. what you said about constitutionality of law needs to be clarified. i believe that an unconstitutional law was never constitutional. when a law is determined by the supreme court, to be unconstitutional, that law was never really a law. the very nature of the law being unconstitutional invalidates the law at it's inception. please correct me if i'm wrong, but when a law is deemed to be unconstitutional, anyone convicted of breaking that law is absolved. i don't believe u.s.c 922 has ever been challenged in court. nfa has been invalidated in two federal district court cases( one may have been appellate level{ u.s. vs rock island armory and u.s. vs dalton}). 
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 much of the dispute about the origin of the fire that destroyed the bd compound could be settled by examining the propane tank supposedly crushed by one of the army tanks when they breached the walls of the compound. if the the propane tank is flattened and has tread marks on it, then the bd's version of the cause of the fire would seem to be dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> the u.s. government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens. just as with a garrotte, the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom, the more the government tightens its stranglehold. the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom. 
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 that's another sad thing. i'd expect this sort of shit from the batf. but i'm goddamn disappointed in the fbi. they used to be professionals. apparently you are unfamiliar with the history of the fbi. you might try looking up articles from the 70's on the fbi's cointelpro operation for starters. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> the u.s. government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens. just as with a garrotte, the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom, the more the government tightens its stranglehold. the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom. 
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 <forgot to leave in his quote source> : >what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of : >had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the : >compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. the batf is a part of the dept. of treasury, not justice. if they needed to assault a place they could just do like the irs does...call in the federal marshalls service, their fugitive collection teams do similar type assaults all the time. and they are very, very good about it, in both the tactical and legal parts of it. but i suspect that the marshalls would not have touched it, because the search warrant (which is still sealed i believe) was so bogus. besides the batf also could have gotton swat teams from: federal marshalls service; fbi; secret service; national park service; texas rangers; nearby large city police forces; the military. but they had to use their own guys, nobody elses swat team was good enough for the holy cause of gun i also find the timing of the raid to be extremely interesting. initial raid: two days before the nj senate was going to overturn their "assault weapon" confiscation law; a couple weeks before the batf's budget was going to come up in congress for review; shortly after reno got confirmed as ag (i don't need to remind you about her anti-gun line); right around the presidents 100th day in office. as a wise man once said: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action. i don't believe that these four things are conincidental. do food for thought... --dale farmer 
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 then post what the press has said, not what you wished they said. the medical examiner has refuted the fbi "facts" and if you don't believe someone who has a lot more reason to be impartial then what do you have to say for yourself. in the interest of accuracy (seems a liitle late to start that, i know) the medical examiner has *not* contradicted the fbi. the fbi said they found some folks who had been shot in the head, and the medical examiner said "we have not seen evidence of this". at the time the medical examiner said that, they were dealing with charred bodies in the compound - this sounds like typical medical examiner not releasing details until a thorough investigation. the medical examiner saying he hasn't seen something is *not* the same thing as saying that it isn't there. while it might end up being true that the fbi had spoken falsely, it isn't clear yet that they have. 
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 : i have seen these numbers quoted before, and i have seen very specific : refutation of them quoted as well. if someone will be so kind as to : email the relevant information, i will write a letter to the editor of : the co. daily (which might get published) and send a copy to usn&wr as : well. thanks to all who responded. the letter has been written (making liberal use of info provided by various net.folks) and handed to the paper. i'll post if it gets into the paper! --dan dod #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu send me something even you can't read... -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.1 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1/40vpjmmntfr+vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn/v/qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4= =s5ib -----end pgp public key block----- 
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 flash over is a frequent occurrence with indoor fires. a fire will start small and in one location and heat the air. the temperature in the room builds up and then everything inflammable in the room catches fire at once. this may have occurred in the bd compound, i have heard reports that the windows were covered which would permit a fire to start unnoticed by those outside the compound. when the fire got big enough, and broke through the walls, it appeared to be started in two places but was really one big fire. the houston chronicle last thursday (maybe wednesday) said that the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help protect against bullets. many of you know how fast dry hay because of the large quantities of tear gas inserted into the building it is possible that many of the women and children were in a room free of tear gas they would try to seal the door to keep out the tear gas. when they learned that a fire had broken out it was too late for them to escape. they were trapped by the flames in their safe room. in addition, the gas is specifically designed to force eyes closed and the victim to vomit. how fast could you leave your burning office or home if your eyes were closed and you were retching violently? i find it hard to believe that the fbi was not recording the final assault. i think that they would have wanted to have tapes to show their agents of the the fbi overcoming the "forces of evil", aka the branch davidians. the tapes would also allow the fbi to prove that they were not using excessive force. thomas rush compaq computer corporation thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com their employee, not their opinions. candidate for misd (magnolia, texas) school board seat 5, may 1, 1993 
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 i need quotes from jefferson, hamilton, madison, or any of the other founders, that support the idea that the second amendment was written into the constitution so that the populace could protect itself it the government began to degenerate into tyrrany. if you have any (with sources), please mail them to me. thanks. __/\__ jonathan s. haas | jake liked his women the way he liked \ / university of michigan | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm- /_ _\ positron@eecs.umich.edu | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and \/ finger for pgp 2.2 key | covered with short brown fuzzy hair. 
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 if there was a large propane tank, and it was breached, don't you think that there would be an identifiable explosion? from what i saw of the videotape, there was an explosion which looked more like one due to propane rather than (official version) i would agree that a propane explosion is as likely as an ammunition/explosives blast. my question was directed to the person who claimed that the propane tank was likely ruptured by the tank before, or just as, the fire started. if that were true, shouldn't the explosion have happened very soon after the fires started? the only evidence that exists right now (at least what we know about) is various claims and counter claims. i'm waiting until the hard evidence is released. what about you? if only we could be certain that the hard evidence will be released. the fbi has made such a fuss over the videotapes and other evidence that they have to release something sooner or later. it's going to happen, and we'll get to see for often law enforcement agencies will withold evidence from public view until the investigation is over. _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 i just read a clari article about how, among the other weapons the bd had purched, they had two "barrett 50-caliber armor-piercing rifles." how the hell do you use an armor-piercing rifle? run up to a tank and try to stab it? once again, ignorance prevails amongst the media . . . arc@cco.caltech.edu 
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 today rush was criticizing clinton for not claiming responsibility for the actions and decisions of janet reno and the fbi early enough to suit about 2 months ago rush was chortling over the fact that reagan has stumped "special persecutor walsh" with his croaking of "i don't remember" when asked about ollie north. if rush's criticism of clinton were to be applied to reagan and north... reagan would have been impeached while north was convicted (and overturned on a technicality). gosh, rush sure wants to have it both ways... clinton must be held responsible, but reagan was clever by using the "amnesia defense". maybe that's waht clinton should say about campaign promises and such "well, there you go again rush... but to tell the truth, i wasn't in the loop and i just don't remember." 
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 this is the ap story from fri morning. as the walls came tumbling down and tear gas filled the air, cult leader david koresh sprang into action. he left his third-floor bedroom and began looking around the house, making sure women and children were secure and checking that everyone had their gas masks on properly. within hours, the compound became an inferno. nine branch davidians excaped. this is their story, gleaned from lawyers who spoke with six of them who are jailed on charges that include conspiracy and murder. that day the six said a portable radio offered the only contact with the outside world since koresh's right-hand man, steve schneider, ripped out the compounds's phone line after fbi agents called before dawn monday saying this was the cults last chance: come out or prepare to get forced out. aw, gee, and whose fault is that? they kept their word. by dawn, tanks were battering the mount carmel compound, punching for hours to creat holes for tear gas to enter. the bd meanwhile proceeded with their daily routines. strapped into gas masks, the women did laundry. others read bibles in their rooms. the 17 children, all under 10, remained by their mothers' sides. still, it was hard to ignore what was happening around them. each time a tank rammed the poorly-constructed building it shook violently. cult members dodges falling gypsum wallboard and doors. dear, dear. they could have come out. hundreds of gas canisters hurled in from the armored vehicles were filling the air with noxious fumes. the flying canisters were more frightening than the tanks. at least one man was hit in the face. dear, dear. they could have come out. the gas began filling the air, driven by heavy gusts of wind coming through windows and the holes the tanks it couldn't have gotten too heavy with all that wind blowing through. scattered throughout the house, the cult members made no efforts to gather. then the fbi sent in its biggest weapon -- a massive armored vehicle headed for a chamber, lined with cinder blocks, where authorities hoped to find koresh and schneider and fire tear gas directly at them. here the cult members' story diverges from the government's version. the fbi says cult members set fires in three places. but each of the six cult members, in separate discussions with lawyers, consistently gave versions at odds with the fbi's account. they say the tank flattened a barrel of propane, spilling its contents. and as the tank thundered through the house, it tipped over lit lanterns, spitting flames that ignited the propane and other flammables. the home of used lumber, plywood, and wallboard tacked together with tar paper was vulnerable. the building erupted. nine bd's escaped jumping through windows and dashing through other openings. others died groping in the blackness. sad, but they could have come out. | the koresh cult standoff is over ... may his victims recquiescat in pace | | (the above is a net.moment of silence) | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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 the waco quiz what would you do in the following hypothetical situations? you have committed no crime. the batf conducts a "no-knock" raid. a) hands in air. say "do you have a warrant?" think of hefty suit settlement. b) say "you have 1 second to identify yourself as a cop or i shoot." c) shoot. heck, at least in federal prison you might get to have sex. you have killed federal agents. they blast strange music at you. a) come out with hands up. "i wish to turn state's evidence." hope deal's good. b) wait, figuring other federal agents will get bored and go on vacation. c) wait. if they come after you there will be a chance to kill more g-men. the fbi has you surrounded, asks you to come out immediately. a) come out, figuring long prison term is chance to catch up on some writing. b) stall. you just can't concentrate when you're on trial for some reason. c) decide to write novel-length prophecy now while ideas are fresh in mind. fbi calls and says they will use tear gas if you don't come out. a) come out with hands up. your radical bro-in-law hated getting gassed at uc. b) get out your gas mask. really, these feds will have to give up eventually. c) shoot at vehicles delivering tear gas. it's rude to break down a man's door! fbi calls and says they will use tanks to break down your walls. a) come out with your hands up. flimsy cardboard construction won't last long. b) with presence of mind, move flammable devices away from tinder-dry haybales. c) spread some kerosene around and hit a match. big schwarzenegger ending. points are awarded in the following manner: 0 points for every (a) answer, -1 points for every (b) answer, and -2 points for every (c) answer. count 'em up and compare with your friends! if you answered (a) all the time, you are probably in jail, but alive. if you answered (b) all the time, you may still be holed up in your compound. if you answered (c) all the time, you are probably dead. (feel free to copy this and distribute to your friends.) | the koresh cult standoff is over ... may his victims recquiescat in pace | | (the above is a net.moment of silence) | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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 nothing could at this point. what would have gone a long way toward convincing me would have been media video, particularly from diverse sources. imho, if the government didn't have anything to hide, they would have allowed cameras near the compound from the beginning. i agree, i saw no reason they could not have had "close in" pool cameras manned by volunteers and protected by sandbags or whatever. [points made by dick degueran, koresh's lawyer] * the tanks were not pumping cs gas but were ejecting exploding canisters from the tank booms that penetrated multiple walls before exploding. okay, their word against the fbi's at this point. see ya in court! * the tanks were collapsing interior walls and ceilings putting people at great risk. dear, dear. they could have come out. * the construction of the coupound used almost all used materials that were very dry and bails of hay were stacked against the walls as shields against the government's bullets. okay, they were living in a fire hazard. that they built. * said that previous to the invasion there were no military drills and that the supplies they had on hand were for survival. no crime, irrelevant either way. * their gas masks worked so well that many members were having bible study and some were sleeping when the fire was set. ah yes, that is exactly what i would do. hold bible study. take a nap. always a wise course of action when you're being gassed. * there was no group instruction of any kind from koresh or his aids after the tank invasion (referring to any kind of suicide pact or counter-assault efforts.) i don't believe there was a "suicide pact". i believe that koresh wanted a fiery conflagration ... which he may not have told his followers. in fact, this hypothesis is confirmed by the survivors' stories. * everyone had moved to the center of the compound in order to escape the falling debris from the tank invasion when the fire was set. yes, that's right. and once the whole compound was demolished, where did they expect to go? * women and children who has sought shelter on the second floor from the tanks were trapped by doors jammed by the tanks ramming the building and distorting the frames. the building is being rammed and they are going upstairs? that's almost as bad as running into a fire. * hallways ran the length of the buildings that acted as conduits for the fire and trapped almost everyone in place. his experts have told him that this horizonal chimney effect is what made the fire appear to have started at several places at once. hm, an interesting notion. we'll see. * koresh was not seen the last hour before the fire and was assumed to be in his 4th floor room with some of his children. more bible study, no doubt. hey, it's a *priority*. * the texas medical examiner has stated flatly that none of the bodies recovered so far had bullet wounds, directly contradicting the fbi's actually, on friday he stated that there was no evidence either way and he could not flatly contradict the federal agents' claims. we'll know more later. in any event, it's irrelevant. * the survivors unanimously stated that if the victims could have gotten out they would have, that they were trapped by the tank-destroyed building and the speed of the fire. for six hours they were trapped? the building was not "destroyed" immediately. they could have left at any time. * the underground bunker cited by the fbi as the place koresh could have put the children had he not been a cold blooded killer had been blocked by the tanks crashing down debris on top of the access door. six hours to move it away. or come out. * dick said that he had sat in koresh's bedroom talking to him and had observed that his room was furnished like all the rest and without air condition or other luxuries, directly contradicting the fbi's claim that he lived in splendor. irrelevant, anyway. pr one way or the other, but no crime or innocence * dick saw bullet holes in koresh's room made from the outside-in which indicates the batf was indiscriminately shooting down through the roof. no word on whether they were being fired back at, which is an operative question here. * the fire was probably started by the tanks knocking over coleman lanterns that were lit and sitting on a piano next to the wall the tanks busted through, though none of the survivors saw the fire start. right. for six hours you know that a tank could come thru the wall at any point, and you leave a coleman lantern burning. near bales of hay. * every one of the survivors strongly denies ever saying anything to the fbi about starting the fire, hearing someone say the fire was lit or any of the other stuff attributed to them by the fbi. it's ultimately irrelevant who "lit" the fire. they had ample opportunity to leave. * he said when he first met koresh in the compound he expected to find a raving lunatic but instead found a rational, charming and intelligent young man and was very surprised by that fact. most charismatic leaders are extremely intelligent, actually. they tend to be excellent actors and skilled manipulators. (ex.: ted bundy.) * koresh had no drugs stronger than aspirin to use against pain. medical assistance was jsut a phone call away. gee, all he had to do was come out. * women with children had their own bedrooms for them and their kids that were appointed as nicely as koresh's. not relevant to any crimes. * dick said he saw signs of home schooling for the kids and at no time did he ever see any signs of abuse. while he was there. anyway, outsiders rarely see abuse. it's a secretive thing. all we have to go on are the court documents in the jewell case and the mistrial in california. * no one was ever held against their wills and could have left at any time. the people who were murdered in the fire were there by their own choices. exactly. by their own choice. * he called for an independent prosecutor. if ever there were a need for one, this is it. looks like there will be several investigations, starting with congressional committee hearings next week.... his closing comments were "they don't look upon themselves as a cult. they view themselves as highly religious people. they sincerely believe what they believe. and who am you or i to judge that as wrong?" his last sentence says it all. who the hell are we (or the government) to judge their religion as wrong. this event, i hope, will be recorded in history as the american holocaust. these people were murdered by the us government just as surely as the jews were by the nazis. i hang my head in shame for what i've allowed my government to become. i have never judged them by their religion, but by their actions. if they had lived a quiet, religious life as they claimed, there would have been no raid, no siege, and no deaths. instead, they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid, if not irrational. the first was to stockpile weapons. the second was to shoot federal agents. the third was to stay inside. just as we don't blame a cop who shoots a kid who had pointed a toy weapon at him, i don't think the fbi deserves blame in this case. | the koresh cult standoff is over ... may his victims recquiescat in pace | | (the above is a net.moment of silence) | daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract 
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 though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns, i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words "well regulated" in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment. though david sternlight pushes the envelope of credibility by claiming that talk.politics.guns is not the place to discuss guns, or the meaning of the second amendment, it seems he would rather post to millions of people out of relative ignorance of the subject than to follow the currently active threads discussing exactly this topic which at least explore the fallacies of his erroneous claim, and at most explode them. basic fact #1, mr. sternlight: the right described is a "right of the people to keep and bear arms;" not a "right of the people to form a militia," a "right of a militia to keep and bear arms," or a "right of well-regulated people to keep and bear arms." this should be apparent from a simple reading of the sentence. for the other arguments, i suggest you check out the thread, "some more about gun control," playing now in an alt.politics.usa.constitution near you. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 take their oath at the fortress. lo tepol shaynit matzadah. matzadah will not fall again! these zealots. holy fuck. israel. armenia. turkey. greece. croatia. serbia. bosnia. russia. germany. iran. the arab world. "please allow me to introduce myself. sympathy i'm a man of wealth and taste. for the devil i've been around for long, long years. the laibach stolen many a man's soul, and faith." remixes 
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 <endless remarks of how the davidians could have surrendered deleted.> if they had lived a quiet, religious life as they claimed, there would have been no raid, no siege, and no deaths. instead, they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid, if not irrational. the first was to stockpile weapons. the second was to shoot federal agents. the third was to stay inside. if they had been quiet there would have been no deaths?? i thought thier neighbors said that the davidians never bothered them. oh, well, that couldn't have been your point, then. if they hadn't been stockpiling weapons, then the atf wouldn't have felt threatened and had to move in. here's a newsflash: it isn't illegal to own more than one firearm. it isn't even illegal to own *lots* of firearms. they shot federales? the feds shot them, too. how about that staying inside thing? here's another newsflash: sometimes the government does nasty things to you that you don't deserve. since they were so nice to the davidians the first time round, i can see why the davidians didn't surrender so easily, especially because they were expecting the end of the world. andrew diederich diederic@spot.colorado.edu these opinions are only mine when they wave that watch infront of my eyes. 
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 <forgot to leave in his quote source> : >what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of : >had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the : >compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. the batf is a part of the dept. of treasury, not justice. if they needed to assault a place they could just do like the irs does...call in the federal marshalls service, the irs doesn't need to rely on the federal marshall's services; the irs has its own swat teams. i saw a picture of one in an article on the irs in some magazine or other. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> the u.s. government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens. just as with a garrotte, the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom, the more the government tightens its stranglehold. the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54859">
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 in a previous article, () says: "freed om of religion" has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming 10-year old children to be your wife. "i'll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals." oh, ok, david. interesting that janet reno has publically announced that we need steal ourselves for more wacos. i wonder if i can get the gasoline concession. i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator; this because he grew up inside the cult, and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego. yup. kill that bastard! this was no move fuck-up. a helicoptor was thermal-imaging the compound ah, yes. the illegal helicopter, searchign for the non-existent pcp lab. i remember it well, even if the media ( and y'all ) tell me i don't. call me winston. that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously. there were no cs canisters... a specially modified abrams was pupming the ahhh, yes. the "non-existent" canisters. call me winston again. stuff in. no chance of starting a fire there. kerosene lamps? maybe one, but not three fires. no way. koresh wasn't just talking out of his ass. i expected this to happen. i did too, but for different reasons. the fbi has a habit of burning up people in fortified areas. maybe they wanted it to look like murder. he had 50+ days. i think this was coming the whole time. he didn't even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige. he put them up into the tower to die. fuck all of you "big brother" paranoid freaks. the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society. yup. good. dead. yeah! maybe janet will do some more, just like she's promis, er, warned us about. like i told y'all before. i would seriously consider the following: get your passport in order now. consider overseas options for your savings. 
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 in a previous article, dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us (dan hartung) says: dear, dear. they could have come out. so could the defenders in the alamo. you're clearly missing the point here. typically, i might add. if it were me, i doubt that *i* would have come out. batf show up, start shooting at me, etc. then they paint me a child-molesting murdering fanatic, call up tanks, hundreds of automatic-armed goons. restrict press access to two miles come on. if i can watch pictures of burned women and children in bosnia on cnn, why am i being limited to a two-mile-away replay of a fire in waco? huh? answer me that. 
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 i have just one thing to say about this: write your congressperson! the fbi and batf storm troopers must not be allowed to get away with this. demand a full investigation of the waco survivor's story of the lantern being knocked over by the tank. we can't bring anybody back from the dead, but we may be able to send a few of them to political hell. i heard over npr yesterday morning that arlan specter, senator from pennsylvania, has already called for a congressional investigation. the problem is that specter was one of the key government attorneys several years ago who did what he could to coverup facts in the assassinations of jfk and others. that is to say, the chief fox wants to check out the hen house. writing your representatives is a great idea. when you do ask that they keep specter and his cronies far away from any investigation. would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters? joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. red-neck and proud of it. | truth is what the government chooses to | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54864">
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 |> >>how 'bout we embed the `card` in the forhead of everyones skull ? |> >>can't lose it without being already dead (ergo, no need for treatment). |> >close, at birth we implant a smart chip just behind the ear under the skin but |> >above the skull. we incase it in a hypo-allergenic high carbon content |> >glass. this chip would be reprogrammed as we age with the pertinent |> >medical, correctional, taxational data. behave yourself or we'll |> >input it into your permenant record. |> you forgot the part about encasing it in a small shaped charge so that |> if anyone tries to tamper with it, it explodes and kills you. |> oh, and the shaped charge can be set off by remote control...but only |> if you get out of line. properly patriotic citizens have nothing to fear. at algor's insistance, the shaped charge will automatically detonate after thirty years, a la "logan's run," in order to maintain population control. // john townsend reduce, reuse engineering & modeling // mead data central reuse, ...!uunet!meaddata!johnt // 9595 springboro pike recycle... johnt@meaddata.com // miamisburg, oh 45342 software! (513) 865-7250 
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 i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full-scale military operations with explicit shoot-to-kill directives. and done in secret ... :-) did anybody notice it is the treasury dept (the fbi and batf, in other words) that clinton wants to do the investigation? in other words, investigating he sure didn't seem very enthusiastic about congress doing the investigation, i notice: "... well, they can do what they want..." (probably insert a pout here...) does anybody smell the attempt for a whitewash? betcha the justice dept investigation will, at most say "possible poor judjement. too bad..." dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> i'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt. at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds. pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54868">
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 [...deleted...] hear, hear! i'd also like to see the autopsy reports confirm news reports that multiple victims were found shot (in the head), and in positions inconsistent with fire victims. it is simply too early to draw conclusions either way about this nasty incident, but i tend to believe the government side. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ at least you're consistent. i'm sure the highly propagandized germans tended to believe their government's version too in the thirties and forties as those "different" highly demonized jewish "cultists" met their fate. always trust your government. the old frog's almanac - a salute to that old frog hisse'f, ryugen fisher (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) sco xenix 2.3.2 gt ladysmith, british columbia, canada. serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail - home to the holocaust almanac joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. remember the alamo | truth is what the government chooses to remember waco | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. --jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54869">
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 i tend to agree, but i would like a better explanation of why the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate. i saw this in realtime. it concerns me that the fbi "appeared" to not be too interested in stopping the fire after it started, and actually started flying hueys around the compound, which had to add in some small part to the winds driving the fire. i understand fire trucks had been at the site for several weeks but were sent home three or four days before the assault. can anyone confirm this? joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. remember the alamo | truth is what the government chooses to remember waco | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. --jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54873">
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 i don't remember the figures exactly, but there were about 3500 deaths in texas in 1991 that was caused by guns..... that includes suicides. since it has been shown in other countries that suicide rates are pretty much independent of the means available for doing oneself in (studies include some done/published in japan, canada, austria, norway), suicides ought not be included in the count. if this is done, the number of vehicle-related deaths greatly exceeds that of firearms-related deaths in texas. *i* should not suffer because of others.... certainly not. we all agree on this one, but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we'll have to give up *some* of our 'freedom' (note the ''). why? unless it's doing something that directly hurts someone else, what's the point? (otherwise, you'd better stop operating all motor vehicles, since the price of operating them *greatly* exceeds the cost in lives of firearms. one state (don't remember which, texas??) tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month. think you all know what happened..... well, it's been done at least twice. south (north?) carolina did it a few years back...and watched its crime rate relative to the rest of the country rise quite a bit. virginia just passed the law...no word yet on what the results will be, but i'd be willing ot bet that a reduction in crime rates won't be one of them. i respect the right to defend yourself, but that right should not inflict on other people. self-defense doesn't "inflict" on other people (except perhaps the criminal who's tried to do you damage, and maybe indirectly on future potential victims who might not become victims). | some things are too important not to give away | | to everybody else and have none left for yourself. | |------------------------ dieter the car salesman-----| 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54876">
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 i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full-scale military operations with explicit shoot-to-kill directives. you mean they aren't already? could have fooled me. only because you are apparently easy to fool. in other words, your remark is obviously from someone who wouldn't know the difference. "insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- mary shafer, nasa ames dryden fred.mccall@dseg.ti.com - i don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54877">
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 the best reason to abolishing the atf is that they don't have enough to do. if the organization were disbanded and its duties assigned to the fbi (firearms) and irs (tobacco and alcohol). both of these organizations have enough to do. the fbi is probably not going to try to get a criminal charge of illegal machine gun for having a broken there have been postings stating that law enforcement should be divided and and weak. but there is nothing more dangerous to liberties than a law enforcement agency without enough criminals to chase. the atf is one and look at the trouble it started in rod anderson n0nzo | "i do not think the united states government boulder, co | is responsible for the fact that a bunch of rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu | fanatics decided to kill themselves" satellite n0nzo on ao-16 | slick willie the compassionate 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54879">
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 pete norton peten@well.sf.ca.us peten@holonet.net norton@hou.amoco.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54880">
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 from a.p. : according to numerous accounts by those in the compound, the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank, and turning over numerous gas lanterns. medical examiners have found no bullet wounds, as was stated by the fbi, on the corpses. i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story, despite much evidence to the contrary. but then again, that is how mr. clinton was elected, by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office. if people will believe that of any politican, it is little wonder they will believe all of the factoids being given out as fact by the clinton/reno/fbi/batf confederation. cnn reported tonight that some bodies were found with bullet holes in their heads. however, i have no information on the possible causes. this is not to say that government stories are to be taken at the face value in this case, but to jump to conclusion at this stage may be the source of embarrassment in the future. let's be paranoic, this may be a ploy to smoke out the opposition and decredit them. :-) comparison of this incidence to tienanmen square is made in soc.culture.china. just in case you need more ammunition to shoot at each other. :-) no matter which side you are on this waco issue, are you ready to die defending your cause? peace be with you. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54883">
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 the denver post (supposed voice of the supposed rocky mountain empire) ran the following in the 'firearms, supplies' classified heading on friday, 23 april 1993. if you have an opinion about their new found wisdom, i am told that the person to speak with is one mr. walters, (303)820-1267. the denver post will no longer knowingly accept any advertise- ment to buy or sell assault weap- ons. the denver post finds that the use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health, safety, and security of its readers. let 'em know what you think... --dan spooksmoke: revolution, assasination, thorium, cobalt-60, clintin, cia, nsa, shc dod #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu send me something even you can't read... -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.2 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1/40vpjmmntfr+vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn/v/qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4= =s5ib -----end pgp public key block----- 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54884">
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 after seeing william sessions on television, explaining the great lengths to which the fbi went to determine the suicidal tendancies of david koresh, i got the very unpleasent feeling that koresh had manipulated the fbi's perceptions much the way he manipulated his own followers. maybe i was manipulated by the news story. david mcgaughey texas tech university 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54885">
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 do you think a $200 tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with 100 armed men in trailers, orchestrated character assassination, noise torture, and a holocaust? i doubt if koresh had let the batf have a look inside his place as they intended to do, "orchestrated character assassination, noise torture, and a holocaust" would never have come to pass. the bd's killed members of the batf on the first day. "orchestrated character assassination and noise torture" seem like a small retribution. the use of tanks is quesionable however. --abhijit bhattacharya,abhijit georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt5311b internet: gt5311b@prism.gatech.edu 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54886">
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 i'm not trying to censor this or any newsgroup, i'm just trying to give some hints about other newsgroups. doesn't this belong to alt.conspiracy ?? drop three billiard balls on a ramp, and they all roll in the same direction. pour some blood into the sea, and sharks will converge from miles around. throw a pebble at one starling, and all 200 will natural processes can mimic the outward results of conspiracy when no actual conspiracy is required. put a government functionary in an embarrassing situation, and he quickly covers his ass. this, too, is completely natural. about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can't handle situations like this. it looks that way to me, too. but you have to understand that it's not the first time they have instigated raids like these. the most recent one also ended up in a long standoff, but it wasn't quite as public as this one, and they didn't kill quite as many people. maybe this screwup will make them think long and hard about raiding any more residences in this manner. but probably not. the way it went reminds me of 'stun' bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter. (whole block went up in flames, 5 died...) i assume you're talking about philadelphia. it doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe they just screwed up ??? if you're a fan of conspiracies, the time to make that batch of popcorn is after the screwup, when it's time for the coverup. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54889">
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 a really sad op-ed appeared in my school's newpaper today. it claimed that full-auto weapons are illegal in the u.s. i understand that full-auto weapons made and registered before may 19, 1986 are still legal in 40 of the 50 states. is texas one of those states? can anyone point me to a source for info on how many people have been killed by legal full-auto weapons in the u.s.? and finally, i think it would be great if anyone was keeping a digest of facts on the waco incident. in particular, i would like a source for the fbi/batf mentioning the supposed methamphetamine lab, and information on the beginning of the raid, specifically batf i am also interested in past batf no-knock warrents which have lead to personal and property damage against innocent citizens. i intend to put together a reply to this op-ed very soon. the author of the piece states he wants to work for the batf. gack! 
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 a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right. ... in response to which ... so, you have the right unless the federal government says you don't. i don't think i like this very much. ... and ... maybe i'm too "religious," but when i see a bill to "establish a right," i wince. keep in mind, what the law giveth, the law can taketh away. ... and ... right mentioned in the bill is already established under the second amendment; the bill should be reworded to reaffirm the second amendment hey, guys. you're absolutely correct, and well on the way to winning this battle ... and losing the war. yes, there are serious philosophical flaws in hr 1276. technical ones, too -- how'd you like to sue the feds, lose, and have to pay _their_ "reasonable attorney's fee" ... ? :-) still, i have one basic question: compared to what we've _got_ is hr 1276 (a) better, or (b) worse? this one shouldn't even take you three guesses. if there's a good enough show of support for hr 1276, maybe for a change _we_ could be the ones saying "it's a reasonable first step" ... the 2nd amendment is about sovereignty, not duck hunting 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54892">
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 count me in for $1000.00. allan lockridge my opinions are my own and are not for sale. allan lockridge -- allanl 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54893">
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 minor quibble: the assualt (and it was one) began near dawn. the fire did not break out for several hours. minor quibble back at you. i am in the same general area as the koresh compound and i can tell you that the air was quite chilly that morning, especially with the high winds that were blowing. (of course the swiss cheese walls made it even worse. ;-) 
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 it's worse than you show it.....look for janet reno and others to link the words "child abuse" and "p[rivate stores of guns" from now on out. bb063@cleveland.freenet.edu chris crobaugh - (216) 327-6655 (v) "those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." b. franklin 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54896">
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 yet, the fbi mouthpiece at this afternoon's press conference characterized the quantity of cs gas pumped into the building as "massive", and speculated that after a few hours of exposure any davidian gas masks would become does this sound "not harmful" to you? hm. a previous poster argued that the fact that the bd's did not rush to escape the burning building indicated that it was they, and not any of the government actions, that started the fire. on the other hand, i wonder if, with a face full of "massive amounts of cs," *i* would be able to escape a burning tinder-box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts. imagine, you have been under seige for almost two months by an enemy which you believe wants to kill you. suddenly, they pump tear gas into your building and punch holes in it with tanks. then a fire breaks out. do you run outside to be slaughtered, or stay and face your fate. check ethiopia vs. italy in wwii for some answers to that question. dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 i just heard on cnn that the texas rangers found an m60 machine gun in the bd compound rubble. the newscaster called this a new hi-tech military weapon! ha ha!! i would bet that it is that rock armory m60 semi-auto, or that it was leagally owned and the tax was paid. what year was the m60 patented? just showing you how the media is twisting the facts, 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54903">
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 okay. i have my copies of all relevant gun-control bills. i'm mad as hell. i want to get involved. i want to join the battle to protect our second amendment rights. who do i write? who should i concentrate on writing my comments to? the actual author of the bill? the supporters of the bill? my congressman? my senator? newspapers? magazines? all of the above? i don't believe that i will change the world, but at least i am going to throw a few punches. can any of you offer any advice or suggestions to me as i now begin to get involved here? thanks for replying directly to me via e-mail. pnesbitt@mcimail.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54904">
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 in <c601ed.cd6@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com>, thomasr@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com sez: the houston chronicle last thursday (maybe wednesday) said that the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help protect against bullets. many of you know how fast dry hay this is all terribly interesting, but it doesn't belong in misc.legal. take it elsewhere, please. but of course it does. it's certainly a legal matter. if it's not a legal matter that interest *you* you may simply put it in your kill seeeeee ya turmoil@halcyon.com fuck the police!!!! 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54905">
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 i`m not saying you should ban guns, or that you should take them away from responsible owners. but this is all gun control laws end up doing. politicians can never manage to get a handle on those who obtain arms illegally, so all their laws can ever do is further restrict people who obtain them legally. karen mcnutt, a local attorney, states that there are about two million licensed gun owners in massachusetts. in the past year, the number of licensed gun owners involved in gun crimes was something like six. yet, there were a large number of gun crimes in the state last year. does passing laws that will further restricting only those people already obeying laws pay any dividents? all i`m saing is that guns should be treated with respect from owners, sellers and legislators. so far, i've seen them treated with the least respect by legislators. i believe guns are a problem in many countries and that crime rates would fell if they were more restricted. see, this is what i call the "argument from religion:" "i believe." don't believe -- it's not necessary to take this on faith. go look at the history of countries that passed gun restrictions. pay particular attention to whether or not violent crime was higher before the restrictions and lower after. (don't look at "violent gun crimes," that's begging the question.) you may be very surprised. if all crimes done with guns stopped and all accidents also stopped or was reduced to a minimum then i would consider lifting all gun control. you have this absolutely backwards. if crime stopped in the presence of strict gun control, there is no way i would consider lifting any of it. however, if gun control made absolutely no improvement in the violent crime rate, that's when i would have it lifted. think about it. so far, none of the stats show any improvement... likevise if car-accidents fell to a minimum in europe, i (and probably most people i know) would demand easier drivers-tests. (ca. 20 hours and more than 2500$ today....) do you really think driver's tests are any indication of your propensity for having accidents? i've never known anybody stupid enough to take a driving test while drunk; after having been up all night; with two fighting kids in the back seat; with a hot cup of coffee on their lap; or while putting on makeup, reading the newspaper, or talking on their cellular phone. but that's what they're doing when they have those accidents. in other words -we should have legislation because it`s neccacery !! how can anything that has no positive effect at all ever be "necessary?" the one gun/month case in virginia: i was thinking about the reactions on the proposal... loud screeming about civil rights and 2. amendment. and it didn't help, any of it. winnie the poh: do you want peace or weapons winnie? -yes please! i'm sorry, i don't remember any story where winnie the pooh was offered weapons. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns54907">
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 boston globe, wednesday april 21 1993 little in the way of rationality could be expected from koresh, a self-confessed "sinner without equal." funny, if koresh did say that, he was quoting st. paul. of course, the early christians were persecuted too. if koresh is a loony because he quotes the bible, how long is it before mainstream christians become the target of the fbi's loving care and attention? `,` "get off the cross. we need the wood." `,` `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,` 
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 in a previous article, spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (steve lamont) says: now, notice, it says *arms*. not guns. arms. the comsymp zog wants you to think that it is the only legitimate possessor of nuclear weapons. unconstitutional! you and i have just as much right to a kilogram or two of nice weapons grade plutonium as any cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos pinkos. support your right to keep and bear short range nuclear weapons. it's a legitimate and challenging sport. good. another liberal converted by waco! if dave had had something realistic, there would have been none of this "bradley" vehicle somebody in talk.politics.guns was offering free nra memberships. hurry up. 
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 i'll give you a little hint: see that manure pile in the farmer's field down the road? in the usa, that is a weapon of mass destruction, nope. it is not considered a weapon. ironic, since it's pretty much what was used to blow up the world trade center... cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 on 21 apr 93 11:28:57 -0800, yodicet@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com said: ah yes, i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children. probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage. probably had a few like that in nazi germany, as well. oh yeah, atf/fbi now claims, according the the media, that there are a few survivors. the number seems to vary minute by minute. yodicet> yodicet> yodicet> hmm. you don't say.. "yeh, buddy.. | larry@psl.nmsu.edu (larry cunningham)| _~~_ i've got your computer! | % physical science laboratory | (o)(-) right here!!" | new mexico state university | /..\ (computer this!) | las cruces, new mexico, usa 88003 | <> disclaimer: opinions expressed here are correct, mine, and not psls or nmsus.. oh sure, we could do it the _easy_ way. but it just wouldn't be the cowboy way. 
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 i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net. say you're in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody. you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them. my question is what do you do? should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass (if you're using a semi-auto) and get out of there (provided of course you don't think that you have been seen)? what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation? what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense? what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught? jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu if in said situation. i would, reviewing other cases i've seen reported on in the articles i've read etc.., suggest the safest legal course of action is as follows. warn your assailant loudly and in clear tones that you have a weapon(yes!even though it's blatantly obvious now that you have it out!) and that you will shoot him if he advances/does not cease whatever hostile action he is currently involved in.( ie: drop the knife or i'll shoot!) repeat this process three times,if you can!(not if he's pointing a freaking gun at you himself!that's kinda impractical.) (there are variables here and i will try to address them in turn) after said warning (considering it's ignored) aim center mass and fire until he drops! this is not sadism, it's practicality.if he hasn't gone down he's still a threat!(why i support .45) if he turns and runs do not pursue or fire at his back! shot's fired in anger will burn you later! (though in some cases the i can see where that might not bother me all that much!) if you do drop him! remain where you are! have a bystander or witness(or create one by yelling at the top of your lungs!) call the police, and wait! reholster your weapon visibly! or place it on the ground nearby. do not attempt to recollect your brass.the police will use it's location to piece together the scene along with your testimony and that of any witnesses. mentally mark witnesses! if the police say that none came forward let them know who you saw! attempt to keep your weapon loaded with the minimum required(how the hell can i phrase this?) try to avoid special purpose ammunition. hollow points and hydrashock rounds give the opposing lawyer the type of loaded phrasing he will need to sawy the jury that you fully intended to kill someone! the only special purpose rounds that i can think of that would actually help your case (as it has in several) is the glaser safety slug (oh what a lovely name safety slug) the stated purpose and stated design parameters of the round are life savers in court. (ie. attempting to create a bullet which will not overpenetrate, not ricochette, and which is designed to stop (not kill (gee, to bad the two often cross, damn i'm real sorry that rapist is dead! not!) an assailant with one shot. this, again, can be a real life saver in a hostile court. be as cooperative with the police as possible! show them where you were. repeat your information as often as requested. they will often ask you the same questions over and over to verify facts, and ,unfortunately, to see if your lying. fill out all statements and show all required identification and weapon permits (booo! down with registered citizens!register your politicians as deadly tax weapons needing to be confiscated!) if they are required in your state. contact a lawyer immediately if they decide to hold you or that further questioning is needed. if you cannot afford one, contact the nra. they have a legal assistance fund.(or at least they used to) i do hope your a member! (not my business either way though..) if i was vague on anything, or i left some questions unanswered, you can e-mail me or post here. (preferebly e-mail. i don't have a load of time to review the news) *a truely representative government need never fear it's armed citizens! * *disband the batf! bankrupt ted turner and hci! * *i will give up my gun when they pry it out of my cold,dead hand! * *death to tyrants! [this space for rent!] * * kane djh4484@rigel.tamu.edu * 
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 from alt.law-enforcement i only caught about the last 15 minutes of this show (i hope to see it when it repeats later), but did manage to catch the summary. according to koresh's lawyer and some other guy (who i am not sure who he is), the davidians _did_not_ start the fire and apparently made several attempts at escaping but were blocked by smoke, fire, and fbi tanks. he states this after interviews with thoses 9 davidians that escaped. they indicated that their was no suicide pact and that the fire was set by the fbi (i got that impression, not sure about that). something about this whole mess just doesn't smell right. it didn't feb. 28th and is doesn't now. [> robert hayden ____ <] black holes result from god [> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero. [> hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <] [> aq650@slc4.ins.cwru.edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 post all you want, foreigner. we'd rather hear from you than those "i'll support the fascist who writes the hecks for my salary" .edu site types! should you expect the police to come in and assault you, lay siege and refuse to help when they (yes, let's give them the benefit of the doubt) accidently burn down your ranch home? even though ey have emergency vehicles nearby? is this a proper response when you just keep to yourself? even if you don't hurt anyone? and you 're cooperative with cops when you occasionally come out? i hope not. -watkins@earth.eecs.uic.edu 
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 do you think a $200 tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with 100 armed men in trailers, orchestrated character assassination, noise torture, and a holocaust? i doubt if koresh had let the batf have a look inside his place as they intended to do, "orchestrated character assassination, noise torture, and a holocaust" would never have come to pass. the bd's killed members of the batf on the first day. "orchestrated character assassination and noise torture" seem like a small retribution. does the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" have any meaning anymore? the use of tanks is quesionable however. --abhijit bhattacharya,abhijit georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt5311b internet: gt5311b@prism.gatech.edu jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 those of us who questioned the mass suicide line may still have wondered, "if it wasn't suicide, why did so few get out?" the answer is now available - the gas the government had been pouring in on them is so disabling that its use in wartime is banned by the chemical weapons treaty. the u.s. had agreed not to use this gas against enemy soldiers in wartime, but used it in peacetime against civilians, including nnocent children. for confirmation see friday's clinton:am press briefing by george stephanopoulous, posted in alt.news-media and other locations. (when questioned about it, his reply was that the treaty did not forbid its internal use by law enforcement agencies. this posting from stephen f. austin state university's anonymous account. please report abuses to newsmgr@ccsvax.sfasu.edu 
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 come on. a gun kills people. rather, people kill people with guns. the sad truth is: sometimes that is good, or at least, better than the alternative. but let's ignore guns for defence and/or crime and look at gun accidents. ok. there are about 1400 fatal firearm accidents per year [1], and the number has been in decline since early this century [2]. most of these accidents involve rifles or shot guns, not handguns. but seriously: a gun is designed to fire a bullet. this is not so you can shoot cardboard cut outs down at the range. in fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that. the idea that my ruger mark ii bull barrel (a semi-auto 0.22 caliber handgun) was designed to kill or hurt people, even for self defense, would, i'm sure, come as a surprise to its designer. it certainly isn't why i have it. it certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it, and might even kill them, but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to kill people. this is not designed to act as a tool for home defence where you show someone that you have a gun and they go "gee, perhaps i should leave". in fact, that is what happens most of the time. most self defensive uses of firearms don't involve firing any shots. most criminals would prefer not to be shot, and will go to some effort not to be, including doing what you say when you point a gun at them. if you were called on to design a tool, that could be easily carried, to immediately stop someone attacking you, what would it be? a handgun is about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work the best.[3] no, you see the gun was designed to fire that little bullet into a human body and hurt them. not a tough concept to swallow, for most. certainly, no one argues that handguns (of the type we are discussing) aren't deadly weapons. however, it simply isn't true to say that all of them were designed to kill people. moreover, what exactly is wrong with having deadly weapons? there are times when it is perfectly legitimate to use deadly force, e.g. in self defense. i consider it not just my right, but my duty to defend myself and my family, and that includes having and knowing how to use the tools to do that. "the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - t. jefferson. i think what jefferson said is still true. and the trouble with having such an item is often the little bullet goes off into the wrong fleshy target. not very often compared to other use.[3] or else uncle frank gets pissed and blows away his wife. this isn't that common either, at least when compared to other uses. it is very rare that a non-violent person will suddenly "get-pissed" and kill someone, gun or not. in most cases, the people who murder have long histories of violence. if you have good reason to believe that these people wouldn't kill if they didn't have a gun, feel free to present it. having a thing specificly designed to kill means it is much easier to kill things. right? right, but there are times when killing things is called for. i hope i never have to shoot a person, but i've had to kill a number of animals from rodents to cows, and when i do, i don't want them to suffer any more than is necessary. i prefer they die instantly, but failing that, i want them to drop so i can quickly finish them with the next shot, and failing that, i don't want them to go fast or far. i try to choose the best weapon and ammunition i have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal i'm after, but it doesn't always work as i plan. without belaboring the point, people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns, particularly handguns, haven't used them much for that purpose. [1] accidental deaths in 1988: 48700 deaths by auto 11300 deaths by fall 5300 deaths by drowning 4800 deaths by fire 4400 deaths by poison 3200 deaths by food 1400 deaths by firearm source: statistics department, national safety council. "accidents facts 1988 edition". national safety council. 444 n. michigan avenue, chicago il 606111 (800) 621-7619 [2] rkba.002 - declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19) the accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily for almost sixty years. in 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per 1,000,000 people was 24.03. in 1987, it was 5.74. the decline has been steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. at the rate of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 ad. firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership. [1] = year. [2] = population. [3] = accidental deaths. [4] = accidental deaths per 1,000,000. [1] [2] [3] [4] [1] [2] [3] [4] 1932 124,840,000 3,000 24.03 1961 183,691,000 2,204 12.00 1933 125,579,000 3,014 24.00 1962 186,538,000 2,092 11.21 1934 126,374,000 3,033 24.00 1963 189,242,000 2,263 11.96 1935 127,250,000 2,799 22.00 1964 191,889,000 2,275 11.86 1936 128,053,000 2,817 22.00 1965 194,303,000 2,344 12.06 1937 128,825,000 2,576 20.00 1966 196,560,000 2,558 13.01 1938 129,825,000 2,726 21.00 1967 198,712,000 2,896 14.57 1939 130,880,000 2,618 20.00 1968 200,706,000 2,394 11.93 1940 132,122,000 2,375 17.98 1969 202,677,000 2,309 11.39 1941 133,402,000 2,396 17.96 1970 204,879,000 2,406 11.74 1942 134,860,000 2,678 19.86 1971 207,661,000 2,360 11.36 1943 136,739,000 2,282 16.69 1972 209,896,000 2,442 11.63 1944 138,397,000 2,392 17.28 1973 211,909,000 2,618 12.35 1945 139,928,000 2,385 17.04 1974 213,854,000 2,613 12.22 1946 141,389,000 2,801 19.81 1975 215,854,000 2,380 11.03 1947 144,126,000 2,439 16.92 1976 218,035,000 2,059 9.44 1948 146,631,000 2,191 14.94 1977 220,239,000 1,982 9.00 1949 149,188,000 2,330 15.62 1978 222,585,000 1,806 8.11 1950 151,684,000 2,174 14.33 1979 225,055,000 2,004 8.90 1951 154,287,000 2,247 14.56 1980 227,757,000 1,955 8.58 1952 156,954,000 2,210 14.08 1981 230,138,000 1,871 8.13 1953 159,565,000 2,277 14.27 1982 232,520,000 1,756 7.55 1954 162,391,000 2,271 13.98 1983 234,799,000 1,695 7.22 1955 165,275,000 2,120 12.83 1984 237,001,000 1,668 7.04 1956 168,221,000 2,202 13.09 1985 239,279,000 1,649 6.89 1957 171,274,000 2,369 13.83 1986 241,613,000 1,600 6.62 1958 174,141,000 2,172 12.47 1987 243,915,000 1,400 5.74 1959 177,073,000 2,258 12.75 1960 180,671,000 2,334 12.92 sources: u.s. bureau of the census, historical statistics of the united states, colonial times to 1970, bicentennial edition, part 2, washington, dc, 1975. u.s. bureau of the census, statistical abstract of the united states: 1982-83. (103th edition.) washington, dc, 1982 [sic].. u.s. bureau of the census, statistical abstract of the united states: 1989 (109th edition.) washington, dc, 1989. [3] kleck, gary. "guns and self-defense: crime control through the use of force in the private sector." __social problems__ 35(1988):4, pp. 7-9. orstcs!opac!bug!stevef i am the nra steven r. fordyce uunet!sequent!ether!stevef . . . the only fair tax is no tax! 
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 of course, true or no, this is a clever attempt to make them seem harmless folk minding their own business. nice touch - using the word *seem*. dave feustel n9myi <feustel@netcom.com> the u.s. government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens. just as with a garrotte, the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom, the more the government tightens its stranglehold. the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom. 
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 posted for l. neil smith by cathy smith the lies of texas okay, what have we learned? for reasons still being kept secret, a federal agency already known -- well enough to be examined and rebuked by several legislative committees over the years -- for a longstanding, violent disregard of the law, invades the home of a man whose religious beliefs and personal habits they abominate, violating his rights under the first, second, fourth, fifth, ninth, and fourteenth amendments to the constitution. the man and his followers fight back, killing four of the outlaw agency's minions, wounding many more, and suffering their own losses in the process. the agency responds by cutting off his electricity, water, and especially his contact with the outside world. they are then free to say anything at all about him -- in pronouncements that contradict one another daily as the agency finds itself locked in a bitter power struggle with another outfit eager to gain credit for "straightening out the mess" -- and, more importantly, to script his side of the subsequent "negotiations" any way they please. the impasse lasts almost two months, ironically, at the same time four l.a. cops are being given a second trial for brutalizing a single individual, sparking one of the ugliest riots in history. armored vehicles surround the house, already ringed with snipers using scoped, high-powered rifles. loudspeakers playing obnoxious records at the highest possible volume, and searchlights, deprive those in the house of sleep (in the aftermath, nobody in authority will mention the effect this technique, originated by north korean communists as a battle tactic, may have had on their judgment). finally -- another irony -- on the 50th anniversary of the rising of the warsaw ghetto, some of the armor punches holes in the house and gas of some kind is injected. the house bursts into flame and is reduced to ashes in less than an hour. at least 80 lives, including those of more than a dozen children, are snuffed out. spokesmen for the outlaw agencies, the attorney general, and the president all hold press conferences to articulate a common theme: blame the victim. he had illegal weapons -- as soon as they can be prepared in a secret government workshop and planted among the cinders being "examined" by the agency that created them. he was abusing children -- the tapes will be stored with the data on the jfk assassination. he set the fire -- our snipers saw him doing it. film at 11 -- in 3000 a.d. he shot his followers who tried to escape -- or was that jim jones? best of all, he's dead -- he can't say a damn thing to embarrass us, any more than when his contact with the world was severed at the start of the whole travesty. a leading national paper claims 93% of the american people believe that a man who resisted a savage attack on his home is somehow responsible for everything that resulted. but when did you ever know 93% of americans to agree on anything -- doesn't this sound more like the outcome of a soviet election than an opinion poll? very well, what can we infer from the above? for starters, never forget that, although democratic careers are on the line (and rightfully so) over this fiasco, by the outlaw agency's admission, it was planned and rehearsed by a republican administration. which may explain why paul harvey, who evidently used up all his courage and integrity changing his mind (at about the same time i did) about the war in viet nam -- has been acting as little more than a mouthpiece for a state that has no regard for the bill of rights. more importantly, when rush limbaugh, who's been a quivering tower of jello during the whole thing, takes essentially the same stance as bill clinton, it's time for fundamental changes, if not in the system, then at least within yourself. on march 5, back at the beginning, mary gingell, national chair of the libertarian party, issued a press release condemning the outlaw agency and calling for its abolition. in fact, the lp has promised in its platform since 1977, for at least 16 years, to abolish both agencies involved in waco. i'm proud to say i was there and helped to write that plank. true, the lp is tiny and insignificant (although less so than in 1977 -- ask the democrats in georgia if you doubt it). but, alone in a howling wilderness of fascists scrambling now to cover their behinds with phony polls and big lies, the lp is right about what happened in waco. and if their advice had been followed in 1977, waco never would have happened. think about it. and think about the fact that, if you've had enough of political parties more interested in collecting and holding power -- at whatever cost to the bill of rights, let alone human life -- than in defending and expanding individual liberty, maybe the change it's time for within yourself is to make the lp less tiny and insignificant by a single voice and a single vote. think about it. l. neil smith author: the probability broach, the crystal empire, henry martyn, and (forthcoming) pallas editor: lever action bbs (303) 493-6674, fidonet: 1:306/31.4 libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member my opinions are, of course, my own. 
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 no surrender! delivered by lenda jackson at the rkba rally in denver, april 18, 1993 it is a fact of modern life that urban residents, particularly women, feel threatened. a certain number of them actually are threatened. there are immediate threats, the things that women will tell you they're afraid of. the noise downstairs at night. the lonely walk to the car. the stranger at the door. the abusive husband, finally kicked out of the house as he threatens to hurt her and their children. the burglar... the mugger...the rapist. and what are we told is the solution? move. get a dog. keep the door locked. call the police. as a next-to-last resort, learn martial arts. and always, there's the implied question "what's a pretty little thing like you doing without a husband around to protect you? but what if you don't like dogs? like living alone? don't have 10 years to devote learning judo? what if, after examining the facts, a woman learns that "rape victims using armed resistance were less likely to have the rape completed - and were less likely to be injured(kleck,124) than those using any other form of resistance (kleck,126) (also true for robbery/assault)(kleck,123) what if, to our horror and despair, we find that citizens cannot depend on the police for effective protection - they usually respond after a crime has been committed. in truth, the supreme court has held that the police are not responsible for protecting any individual, only the whole community. as a society, are we going to ask women, once again, to sacrifice themselves? are we going to continue to deny women the ability to help themselves? here's a thought. neil smith, in his book the probability broach, says "no 220 pound thug can threaten the well being or dignity of a 110- pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out." but if a woman decides to protect herself, with the easiest, most efficient means possible, people - especially other women - are horrified. "eughh, how could you? i'd be terrified!" they ask. how could you hurt someone? they'll repeat the lie: it'll just get taken away from you. in truth, 1% of "defensive gun uses" result in the offender taking the gun away from the victim.(122,kleck) well, despite the lies, and the social pressure, some of us have already made that hard choice. we've decided that we are not going to be victimized by the muggers, burglars or rapists. we're buying more guns than every before. we're learning how to use them - and teaching others, women and men, how to use them. most importantly, we are preparing ourselves mentally to use our firearms for our own defense. we're taking our own security, literally, into our own hands. we're going to stop begging and pleading and marching and what we intend is to really take back the night. but there's another threat, more insatiable than any mugger, more secretive than any burglar, more soul-destroying than any rapist. that menace is government, and it threatens us all. we know that governments, throughout time, have suppressed rights and oppressed people. it's the way they survive. in our names and with our money, it interferes with innocent people both at home and abroad. it lies to us, cheats us, steals from us and threatens us with violence. no one knows exactly what it'll do next - what freedom we will lose because some government goon decides "it's for your own safety" or "we know best". any person who acted like government does would be psychoanalyzed within an inch of his life and locked up as a habitual offender. but this monster called government persists, and grows. and we, who should be its masters, have become its unwilling slaves. do you doubt me? then why did you file your income tax? like any reasonable person, i believe that being afraid of something that can hurt you is smart, and that paranoia isn't crazy if someone's really after you. and make no mistake, they're after you and they're after me. their names are familiar: brady and reynolds, groff, metzenbahm, moynihan, and clinton. if we're lucky, they'll settle for our assault rifles, our shotguns, our handguns and our ammunition. as citizens, we have only two choices. they are the same two choices given to women: to surrender or to fight. surrender leads to the gulag, to the genocide of pol pot, to the disappearances, to dachau. i do not intend to surrender. a battle can be philosophical or political: in the main, the people keep the government honest by threatening to vote it out of office. but if they have to, they will keep in mind the words of thomas jefferson: "the tree of liberty must be well watered with the blood of patriots." as a patriot, i will point out the error in the government's ways. i will do my best to vote the villains out of office. i will protest, and write, and speak, and teach our children justice, honor and truth. and always remember that rebellion can lead to bunker hill and saratoga......or it can lead to tiananmen square. when the time comes to stand up, if i have to give my life to keep them from going too far, if there is a tiananmen square in our future, i intend to be there. and no matter what lies they tell and no matter what laws they pass, i intend to meet them with something more substantial in my hand than a brick. my opinions are, of course, my own. 
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 would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters? us house of representatives washington, dc 20515 us senate washington, dc 20510 
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 people are getting killed by gang violence every day? every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons that are being confiscated. is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m-16 from an ar-15? that he can see the difference between a semi-auto and a full-auto uzi? that he can see the difference between the various versions (some full-auto, some semi-auto only) of the m-11/9? well, let me see. uzi, no. m-11/9, no. m-16/ar-15, maybe. i remember there being a selector swtich on the ar-15. if i remember correctly (please correct me if i'm wrong) the switch would set to an "off" position or an "on" position because the gun (ar-15) is semi-automatic. wouldn't the m-16 have a position for semi-auto fire and full-auto fire (or maybe 3 round bursts)? if this is correct wouldn't it be easy to distinguish each gun by this alone? of course if the ar-15 were modified to full-auto fire i wouldn't think it would be that easy but i'm talking about distinguishing between an unmodified ar-15 and m-16. how about the other guns? do they also have selector switch to switch between semi-auto and fully-auto fire? if so, i'd love to hear the details, if only because they'll demonstrate that kratz is blowing smoke. considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like another gun, yet have very different properties, and that that's quite common.... most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out that my parents car wasn't much like richard petty's, even though it looked just like it (except for the paint job). things must have been different with kratz. actually it was pretty hard for the kids in my neighborhood to figure that out as richard petty lived in my neighborhood and left his stock car in the driveway. ;-) sure it's on tv but why does that make a difference? no, it doesn't, but that's irrelevant. if visual inspection of the outside worked, tv would be acceptable, but since it doesn't, the fact that it's just as good as seeing in person doesn't mean much. well, what about what i said above? if that is correct i guess tv would be acceptable (if you had a good enough picture and a picture of the lower receiver of the ar-15/m-16). -andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private jason kratz <- didn't take andy's offer to back down in private 
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 yeah, as information trickles in... funny how that works... funny, yeah, funny how you didn't wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of "facts" before proclaiming the bd's burned themselves to death. if you won't believe anything the government says, and the press is not reliable according to the same logic, then what do you base your statements on? wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia? <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 more than someone who would not release children from the compound. i suppose it's too late now, but the repeated use of the word "release" is peculiar. let's say you and your family are besieged in your home by some people with tanks, helicopters, and automatic weapons. they give you a break from the amplified sounds of dying rabbits to blare, "you in there! release the children, and they'll be perfectly all right." stipulate on top of that that you may not have your epistemology entirely in order. is it entirely surprising that the branch davidians were reluctant to "release" their children into fbi custody? pgp 2 key by finger or e-mail eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu 
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 relay of coverage seen: there was a press conference by authorities at the compound on cnn earlier today (wednesday). it was explained that two news photographers were found on the compound earlier this morning without permission. it was explained to the press corps. that this is dangerous and that an unknown photographer turning around with a long lens camera could be mistaken for someone dangerous by a texas ranger surveying the site. (!) the two photographers were said to be currently in jail and the press were warned to follow the authorities' guidelines. it was also emphasized that the survey of the "crime" scene at this point was crucial and that the press could not be allowed to interfere. the press will not be allowed in until the bodies are removed and the site has been completely surveyed for evidence for a court case. that is the gist of the beginning of the conference to the best of my memory. i bring this up because i haven't seen anyone else note it and i haven't seen the regular newscasts mention it. it will probably be mentioned in the papers tomorrow. my opinions: i find this disturbing. while i believe that koresh is largely responsible for not ending this standoff in a peacable manner during the last 51 days of patient opportunity, i find the secrecy surrounding the aftermath more damaging to the authorities' position than they realize. since the vast majority of potential defendents in a court case are already dead, the emphasis on the importance of building the court case seems overblown to me. it will be interesting to see the hearings on this affair. i have also heard congressional calls for a review and possible overhaul of government enforcement agencies which you will recall i have stated would be a good idea in previous months. please also note that i by no means endorse or agree with the many conspiracy-type theories i have read here and in other groups. as usual, i am basing my opinions on info gathered from various media and filtered by my own common sense and consideration of plausibility, imho. as such, my opinion is subject to change as more information is made available. scott roby standard disclaimer 
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 minor quibble: the assualt (and it was one) began near dawn. the fire did not break out for several hours. minor quibble back at you. i am in the same general area as the koresh compound and i can tell you that the air was quite chilly that morning, especially with the high winds that were blowing. (of course the swiss cheese walls made it even worse. ;-) you are correct wrt the idea of some heating being nice that morning. but part of that line was also for the guy who said "minutes later, the fires started". i did forget how cool it was that day. those choppers flying around didn't make the wind any more still, either. when you got 30-40 mph winds swinging across the texas plain, a couple of hueys don't add one whole hell of a lot. semper fi, jammer jim miller texas a&m university '89 and '91 i don't speak for uh, which is too bad, because they could use the help. "become one with the student billing system. *be* the student billing system." "power finds its way to those who take a stand. stand up, ordinary man." ---rik emmet, gil moore, mike levine: triumph 
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 2) could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome. this i doubt. while i question the atf's initial raid, i believe that the remainder of the standoff was handled fairly well with the single exception of the psychological "warfare" by blaring music, etc. i think that was uncalled for and probably hindered the outcome. but... suppose they had waited. the worst outcome would have been the one that actually did. but with the fbi/atf just standing there watching instead of being a part of the problem. it then would have been very clear exactly who was at fault then, rather than the way it turned out. and, that would have been the worst case. the best would have been, they finally get hungry and come out. possible/likely? well, the alternative was worse... one other point, i'm no fan of janet reno, but i do like the way she had the "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility. seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue. which is actually rather refreshing nowadays. most of the time, the higher-ups claim "i don't remember..." or "i had no involvement..." :-) but what does it matter? why say "i don't remember...." when it doesn't make any difference? altho the clintonettes have been pretty good at lying when it wasn't necessary, they didn't do it this time. but it wasn't necessary - claiming full responsibility is a totall meaningless gesture. symbolism over substance - again! i've offered to take full responsibility. when do they pay me the big bucks the ag is making...???? ;^) |bob rahe, delaware tech&comm college | aids, drugs, abortion: - | |internet: bob@hobbes.dtcc.edu | - don't liberals just kill you?| |ci$: 72406,525 genie:bob.rahe |save whales; and kill babies? | 
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 however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their "savior" (yeah right budy boy) because he had brain-washed them into believing what ever he says is the truth, even if means that they are to give up lives for <<<<his>>>> cause. tolerent, aren't we? their's was hardly the first faith/sect/cult to espouse this type of belief. therefore it is davids fault and not the atf's who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me for many of the rest of the u.s. i keep hearing this, and while i'll agree that he "should" have come out (legally, that was his best option), he didn't; and as far as i know, there is no legal provision for "we're tired of this shit, lets just kick some ass..." so i have a question for you; here goes. i come up to you and point a gun at you, saying "i'm going to count to ten, if you aren't standing on your head by then, i'll kill you." you believe that standing on your head is the road to damnation, so you don't do it. "1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10...bang!" you are now dead - is it my fault for shooting you, or you're fault for being shot? koresh wouldn't stand on his head. 
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 :>on the subject of cs/cn/tear gas: when i received my initial introduction to :you couldn't find a window after six hours? : daniel a. hartung -- dhartung@chinet.chinet.com -- ask me about rotaract have you ever been violently sick repeatedly? i have, and it was difficult to drag myself back to my bed, much less move through a building full of smoke and debris, especially when most likely already disoriented from lack of sleep and constant psychological abuse... throw in the fact that the 'safety' outside consists of people who have shot at me and thrown grenades at me, and are currently knocking my house down with tanks, i could understand if the bd's were inclined to stay put in the center of the building... james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 okay, here is the result of my efforts. i'm just getting started with this type of activity, so please set your flame-thowers on low. comments, corrections, suggestions, welcomed. i would like to ask you and your readers a few questions that are related to the "right to keep and bear arms", and to a greater degree, the many other "rights" that we take for granted on a daily basis. 1. you're sleeping at night, when you hear someone in your house. you call the police. how will you defend yourself, should the need arise, while you are waiting for the police to arive? 2. you are driving your family home when your car breaks down. a "good samaritan" stops to "help", when you find you and your family at gun-point or knife-point. how will you defend yourself? and your family? 3. you are a woman walking alone to your car or home. a man appears suddenly with the intent to rape you. how will you defend yourself? are you strong enough to fight off your attacker? are you willing to let this man rape you in order to survive the attack? if the house and senate have their way, we will soon not have the right to keep and bear arms, as provided by the second amendment to the constitution. a gun may not be the answer to each and every dangerous situation, but are you going to let the politicians decide what sort of force or weapon you may use to defend yourself and your family? many times a situation may be diffused by just brandishing your handgun. if certain members of the house and senate have their way, .25, .32, and 9mm ammunition will be banned for sale to anyone other than the military and law enforcement departments. very soon, you may not be able to purchase ammunition for use in your handgun. there is already a 15 day waiting period in california. do you really feel that any law abiding citizen should be required to wait this amount of time for the purchase of a handgun when his life or family members have been threatened? our local police do an excellent job, but they can not be there all the time, or in a moments notice. you should have the right to protect yourself while waiting for help to arrive. there is currently legislation circulating in washington that would prohibit the sale of certain types of ammuntion, handguns, rifles, and shot-guns. one elected official even wants to repeal the second amendment! i want to ask the readers of this paper what they would do if their elected officials decided that they should only belong to a "certain church", or go to church on a "partiular day"? what if you were told that you could only read certain books? write about certain subjects? what if you no longer had the right to a jury of your peers? how about the right to assemble in a peaceful these are all rights that are provided by our constitution and the amendments. if we give up one right, we may as well give them all up. if you do not fight for the right to keep and bear arms, what will you fight for? when your life is affected? write your law makers now! protect all of your rights by defending your second amendment rights. 
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 |in article <2001.150.uupcb@yob.sccsi.com>, jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (jim wray) |says: |> bill vojak: hey! if you can get it together, i'm all for it! i too am one of the poor (a college student) get a bank account set aside, and set aside a big ass data base and you will get my contribution. i'm setting aside as of now 10$ a month. not a slew of cash to be sure, but it's the best i can do. let me know what you guys come up with. i'm sure as hell not going anywhere. e-mail to djh4484@rigel.tamu.edu death to tyrants! better ideas anyone? haven't heard 'em yet! 
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 that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons, this means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough. good. very narrow. very, very narrow. if you'll recall, i was the nut that advocated the possibility of tactical nukes being militia weapons in certain situations. how can you possibly define what is a weapon and what isn't is only the start of this. and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road. i would hope so. let's define a nuclear weapon as an explosive weapon whose majority of energy comes from fission and/or fusion of atomic and you've just described any civilian reactor because your definition fails to note what energy is being considered. reactors blow with a steam explosion, but the majority of energy still comes from fission or fusion because that is what heated the coolant. see what a can of worms this is? last i heard, ft. calhoun station just north of omaha, nebraska wasn't considered a weapon. given the sodium-cooled breeder designs on the blocks now, i can easily envision reactors being household appliances in under twenty years. with the prism design, there is *no* operator input needed on the reactor itself, and it is not unreasonable to assume the secondary side can be made equally as automatic in the future. so your definition is flawed in a few respects already. let's define a biological weapon as live organisms or viruses in such state, quantity, and with such a vector that they could cause death or serious disease [further defined] to a significant number of people if released in a city, similarly populated area, resevoir, or typhoid mary would likely fit this bill if she sneezed. if you don't mind extrapolation, any hiv-positive person also fits this bill if they interact with others in a way that stands any chance of spreading the virus. finally, that manure pile i mention below fits this definition, as does, say, releasing a pet rattlesnake to the wild. nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined. other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry. licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals. and i can show where any such gas has other uses. for example, perhaps we would like to rid the hay field of gophers. calcium carbide is a rock that dissolves in water to produce aceteylne gas. it can be used for welding, in miners lamps, for gassing gophers, or for making carbide bombs and doing some illicit fishing. toss some in a toilet and leave a lighted cigarette on the seat and you'll see that it can also be a weapon, just like any other flammable substance. so, now my miners lamps won't work, i can't do any welding, and i still have those pesky gophers. i am not a lawyer, but these ideas could certainly be a basis for the basis for, but i'm sure you see that the problem is not in writing a law, it is in writing a law that cannot be abused and extended beyond the point where it does any good. i'll give you a little hint: see that manure pile in the farmer's field down the road? in the usa, that is a weapon of mass destruction, nope. it is not considered a weapon. it is under your proposed law. so is a silage pit if there is run-off. so are underground fuel tanks. biological in nature, because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water. so, where do *you* draw the line? in the usa, the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal. care to draw a thinner line this time? it is not defined as a weapon of mass destruction. many things are banned for other reasons. it meets all the criterion of a weapon. it is an instrument that can be used for fighting, even though that is not its intended purpose, and despite there being better weapons around. given that the aquifers supply a significant part of the country with drinking water, mass destruction is rather a given. it's not that certain weapons aren't something i'd rather not see a lot of people having. the problem is that it is nearly impossible to write a law such that it cannot be abused upon some pretext or another. the looser your definition, the more ripe for abuse that law is. furthermore, if you get specific then the old standby is to insert a clause allowing the list of banned things to be added to, generally without going through the hassles of another vote and public reading of the law. again, ripe for abuse. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 cnn just reported the atf and the fbi have begun killing everyone in the united states. a press release stated this action was required because bugs had revealed that many people were doing something illegal in their homes, and statistical data indicated that those who weren't might someday do something illegal. an atf spokesperson, just before he shot himself, stated that "this would clean up things once and for all". for those of you still unsure whether this is satire, the jury is still out: "also yesterday, even though the compound no longer exists, the us attorney's office here released formerly sealed documents, including a search warrant and related affidavits, that authorities planned to use when the siege was over. "these documents did not include the original warrants the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms had in late february, which to this day have never been released. "...one of the documents indicated the agency planned to seek samples of koresh's handwriting not only to verify that he had signed for some gun purchases, but also that he espoused 'certain doctrines hostile to law enforcement and particularly the atf.'" so, one of the charges against koresh seems to be contempt of cop -- he expressed hostility to the batf. that chilly feeling in your gonads is perfectly normal, folks... it should go away in about 51 days. the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. that should save them the trouble of subpoena-ing samples. heavens knows i want to cooperate fully, meinherren. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 this was posted by lyn bates to the firearms-politics mailing list: i recently learned that don kates was going to be in boston to give a talk at the harbard law school about the waco situation. (of course, this was all set up after the incident started but long before its unhappy conclusion.) so, yesterday i went to hear him. what follows is a rough summary of what i think i heard him say, which should not be taken as exactly what he actually said... kates started by saying that since he didn't know any more about the fire than the audience did (it had just happened the day before), he would not discuss that, but would concentrate on the original raid. koresh definitely was not playing with a full deck. but so what? this isn't the first time that the leader of a new, small religious group has been ridiculed by the public. extreme religious views nearly always fuel hatred and mistrust. the first amendment applies, maybe especially, to people like koresh. lengthy digression into the history of police organizations in the us. there were none until about 1830, when they began in metropolitan areas. police originally were not armed; if they found a crime in progress, they called local armed citizens to help. many began to carry arms for protection despite regulations against them, eventually the laws were changed to allow them to carry guns. the original intent was to have many small police departments, jealous of one another and competitive, but not large enough to be a threat to liberty, hence the plethora of organizations ranging from postal inspectors to the coast guard. when the fbi was started, agents did not have the authority oto carry guns (they were to be, after all, a bureau of investigation, not a police force). "all police agencies will be misused by anyone in power to maintain that power." the batf started as a tax collection agency, whose primary job was to raid illegal stills. when the price of sugar went up so high that moonshiners no longer found their trade no longer profitable, many illegal stills disappeared, and the batf needed something else to do to justify its existence, so it turned to activities like phony raids on gun stores. around the time when the batf's annual budget is under review, the media is alerted by the batf to come to such-and-such a place, where at a pre-arranged time, a bunch of cars full of batf agents roar up to the door and the media get great pictures of the agents entering the premises of a gun dealer suspected of not keeping books properly. the media isn't invited in for the boring hours of agents leafing through paperwork, but if any irregularities are found, the media gets to cover the agents removing armfuls of guns from the premises, and the luckless ffl in the waco incident happened a few weeks before batf's budget was up for kates' opinion is that it was a staged publicity stunt that went bad, and that the batf never thought for a moment that they would actually be shot at, or they would have planned the raid differently (not sending 100 agents over open ground with no cover, for example), and would have had some medical personnel on hand. he confirmed that some years ago there was a warrant for koresh's arrest in connection with a murder charge, and the local sheriff called him on the phone and explained about it. koresh sais, ok, come pick me up, and the sheriff did, temporarily confiscating all the guns so that they could be tested. koresh was later cleared, release, and presumably got his guns back. at least at that time, he was rational enough to be approached rationally, and behaved in a reasonable manner. the batf didn't take into account that, unlike most of the ffl's they audit, koresh was actually paranoid, and fostered paranoia in his followers. thus the pubicity stunt looked like a real attack to them, and they reacted accordingly. with respect to the original warrant, it had not been unsealed when kates was giving his talk, so he could not comment on it, except to mention that the batf has been known to not double-check the veractiy of their informants, if they can manage to get a judge to issue a warrant. he had more to say about the way the warrant was served, which may have been completely illegal. apparently the proper way to serve a warrant is to knock on the door and announce that you're an officer with a warrant for thus-and-so; if they don't open the door and the evidence is flushable, then it is ok to break in the door. but since it is hard to flush guns down the toilet, there may have been no justification for the batf breaking in the way they did. if the constitutional rights of the davidians were violated by an invalid warrant, or by an improperly served warrant, then the davidians may have been justified in their actons. a close look at one of the original films shows that one batf agent _may_ have shot himself by accident when entering the building; if so, this was the first shot fired! the role of the media could have been a whole lot worse. after an initial position on the side of the batf, the media began to come around to the view that this might be a situation in which legally armed citizens held off a bad, possibly illegal attack. a real cynic might say that the fbi went in when they did because it was clear that public opinion was beginning to change sides, and the fbi wanted to act before they lost the public's sympathy. should the batf be abolished? no. police agencies _should_ be numerous, diverse, inefficient, decentralized, etc. better a few inept accidents like this, than a move toward a single, large, well-organized, well-trained, powerful, domestic police force, which would eventually have even more tragic results. - lyn bates (bates@bbn.com) ps don kates will be giving a shorter version of this talk at boston college law school next tuesday, april 27. i don't know the exact time or place, but presumably a phone call to the bc law school could elicit that larry cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com 
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 just heard on the network radio news a spokesman from the army saying that the type of cs gas used in waco had been banned from military use. its use is also banned by a draft international agreement on the use of chemical weapons in warfare. the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea, blindness, disorientation, total irrationality, raging paranoia. children would be all the more susceptible, and show the results all the earlier. interesting development. especially since the feds (and the u.n.) accused saddam hussein of using illegal chemicals on his own citizens as well. hmmm... republican guard/iraqu army = fbi/batf? you decide. i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks. -president william jefferson clinton, april 20, 1993, at a press conferance held the day after the branch davidians "compound" went up in flames while under attack by the fbi/atf near waco, texas. is your church u.s. government approved? connect the god-damned dots!!! ministry, tv song clinton administration e-mail addresses | clintonhq@campaign92.org (mcimail) provided as a public service by | 75300.3115@compuserve.com (compuserve) jon edward shum (jon@mitre.org) | clintonpz@aol.com (america online) 
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 catch tonight's (thursday's) cbs street stories. covers, among others, the work of aware (arming women against rape and endangerment), a women's empowerment and training group in massachusetts. they'll be interviewing spokesperson nancy bittle, as well as some of her students. (assuming all of the "interesting" stuff they taped makes the final cut.) [if they show the ugly housebreaker in the toque and sunglasses, wave hi.] cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 few simple points: leadership: you are responsible for all that your subordinates do or fail to do. law: any deaths that occur as a result or during the commision of a crime are a felony against whoever dies during the incident, and whoever committed the crime establishing the incident is chargable for murder one. this is how criminals are charged with murder for the deaths of bystanders from police stray rounds and such. someone dying of a heart attack is also considered a murder one, if it is in a situation caused by a crime. james s. cochrane * when in danger, or in doubt, run in * this space gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent 
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 (the lawnmowerman) says: [deleted] lives for <<<<his>>>> cause. therefore it is davids fault and not the atf's who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u.s. i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am. | matthew r. hamilton | mhamilto@mcs.kent.edu | a.k.a | | cs/ physics major | 1499h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu | (the lawnmowerman) | | kent state university | 1299h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu | | how tragically ironic that a post like this should originate from kent state. apparently the lessons of history have been ignored there. 
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 is there something similar pro-gun people can do ? for example, pay $100 to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm ? sounds a bit tacky, but hey, whatever works. how about a gun buy-back/charity? get some sponsors to fund the purchase of used firearms, have a gunsmith check them over, and give or sell them at a low price to poor persons wishing to own firearms. ;-) why sell them at a low price to poor people immediately? the nra is an educational organization too, after all, and it would be a shame to pay all that money for new guns when these cheap guns would allow a lot of money thus saved to be used in opening more classes. mention that the nra trains our boys in blue and you've got the media between a rock and a hard place. "city pays $50 per gun to reduce crime." "nra to pay $50 per gun to provide training guns for police and citizens. classes expanded with money saved." < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 "genocidal mass-slaughter of innocent people". besides there are nine survivors in the burn-unit of the local hospital and was reported that david was in one of the towers when the shit hit the fan. besides, a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of, this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit (sp). also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can't the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen!! (pun intended) i guess you need to be reminded of some things! have you ever heard of the first amendment? i guess not. it isn't a crime to be a religous (i know you said "sacraligious", but it isn't your place to judge his religion) zealot in this country. remember we have freedom of religion in this country! i guess you are selective in that respect! so what if they were "bastard" children. they were children! do you condone their deaths? i pray for your lack of a soul if you do! john b. meaders, jr. "gun control is being able to hit your target!" 8820 southwestern blvd. #1103, dallas, tx 75206 voicemail: 214-750-0273 uucpmail: karnak!johnm internet: johnm@karnak.lonestar.org 
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 just heard on the network radio news a spokesman from the army saying that the type of cs gas used in waco had been banned from military use. its use is also banned by a the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea, blindness, disorientation, total irrationality, raging paranoia. children would be all the more susceptible, and show the results all the if we are indeed talking about cs, then this is not quite accurate. cs is "just" tear gas--albeit the worst kind. it isn't a nausea gas, and doesn't have direct cns effects. however, it's quite bad--much worse than cn gas. i was briefly exposed to it once (during an engagement in berkeley circa 1968 8^) and it's not the kind of thing you forget. it seems to be moisture-activated--it not only made my eyes sting and water, but attacked my breathing passages and lungs. breathing was painful, and my entire face felt as if it was on fire. these effects persisted for hours after exposure, and i was coughing for days afterwards. if i was exposed to a dense concentration of this stuff in a closed space for several hours, i doubt whether i could find the exit. indeed, i can't imagine living through | die welt ist alles, was zerfall ist. | peter cash | (apologies to ludwig wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com 
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 washington (upi) -- as part of its investigation of the deadly confrontation with a texas cult, congress will consider whether the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be moved from the treasury department to the justice department, senators said wednesday. the idea will be considered because of the violent and fatal events at the beginning and end of the agency's confrontation with the branch davidian cult. of course. when the catbox begines to smell, simply transfer its contents into the potted plant in the foyer. "why hillary! your government smells so... fresh!" cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 ...gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings (especially youths), domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger, and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street-level what gives you the idea that gun "buyback" programs will have an impact on any of these things? evidence, please? please don't misinterret what i was saying joe. i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents. if you're a "research associate" in "urban child research," then perhaps you can comment for us on the ratio of the accidental gun death rate to the rate of accidental death from other single causes? follow that perhaps with some sort of justification for the amount of effort that anti-gunners spend trying to convince the country that accidental gun-related death among children in the u.s. is a serious problem. firearms are the fifth-leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under. i don't understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important. so guns don't kill as many children as car accidents. what is the difference in severity between 1,000 deaths and 10,000 deaths? i am not trying to use accidental gun-related deaths among children as a justification for gun control. who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem? i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any 10 year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends. more than anything, gun buyback programs are symbolic offerings to the community. in that sense, i think they might do a little good. please explain why you think "symbolic offerings" do good. my point was, gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might (i stress might) do a little (i stress little) good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way. overall, i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were i do know that the vast majority of guns that are used by youths or brought to school by youths on a daily basis (about 135,000 youths) are obtained easily and quickly, through a personal friend, or more often "borrowed" from a parent without their knowledge. i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these "statistics" - i suspect you'll find if you look carefully that 135,000 is the number of students *estimated* to have carried *a weapon* (not necessarily a gun) to school at least once in the past year, and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily. well joe, i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence or the centers for disease control. if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths. the cphv reports that 135,000 youth bring guns to school daily and that 400,000 bring guns to school at least once a year. the cdc estimates that 1 out 0f 25 high school students carried a gun to school at least once in 1990. the cdc also says that 1.2 million elementary-aged, latch-key children (kids who come home from school to an empty house), have access to guns in their home. california schools reported a 200% increase in student gun confiscations between 1986 and 1990, and a 40% increase between 1988 and 1990. florida reported a 61% percent increase in gun incidents in schools between 1986/87 amd 1987/88. these are the "statistics". thus willing to follow a man who claimed to be the messiah (got news for you folks, if the big cheese was on this crazy planet of ours presently, he would not be carrying a gun or holding children when they were in danger). "holding kids?" time for a reality check, son. these kids were the children of the people inside who believed that the forces of evil were outside waiting to kill them. would you send *your* children out the door if you believed as they did? okay, maybe i worded it wrong...dad. i meant that to put children in a situation (fortified compound) where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion. i'm not saying that koresh had control over these children directly, but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die. if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such, why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive? thanks for the reality check joe, its been real. 
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 |> |> if the fbi started the fire, why didn`t people flee the |> |> burning building? |> |> james dusek |> james, it could be that they were determined to stay together in the compound |> no matter what happened. perhaps the fire was accidental, and the db simply |> refused to leave the compod. perhap they died fighting the fire? who knows. |> we will have to wait and see. i persaonlly find it hard to believe that they |> would all agree to burn themselves up! what a horrible way to go. |> jim shirreffs i seem to recall graphic news file of buddhist monks setting themselves on fire in the streets of saigon. yes, its a horrible way to go, but apparently not so horrible that someone with enough religious conviction might not be able to carry it through. and, since they've discovered bullet wounds in a couple of the bodies from the compound, there is the possiblity that those with the will power to self immolate also had the will power to take out the ones who had less constitutional fortitude. then again, maybe the fbi ran in while the fire was raging, executed those two, and ran out again. jason durbin oracle europe 
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 perhaps we are a little off track. the discussion was about rewording the 2nd amendment. this specifically refers to the right to bear arms. "bear" and "arms" are key words here, no? is it too simplistic to say that if you can't pick it up (ie. bear it), or if it is not a firearm then it can be restricted without amending the constitution. firearm? let's not even consider long knives (swords), which were also common militia weapons in the 18th century, and which, if anything, are often restricted more heavily than firearms. whatever sense gun control makes, knife control makes even less. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 mcsdc1jpb@dct.ac.uk (john bell) babbles from scotland, one of england's last remaining colonies: are you for real? people dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he's jesus deserve all they get people who were dumb enough to believe klinton was a moderate deserve what they get too. it's a real laugh to hear them try to justify this massacre with bullsh*t about how concerned they were about how our tax money was was being spent. (wasting money keeping texans alive? hell no. let's spend it to import haitians with aids so we can treat them at taxpayer expense. %^p ) anyway, he killed a few feds so what? the feds killed 90+ civilians when they "ran out of patience", to use their own phrase. if the feds hadn't attacked them, they'd all be home eating dinner with their families tonight. too bad, but they started it. maybe next time they'll think twice. that's worth 4 stormtroopers. he's not the goddam hero here nobody says he is. what he was was a victim of a left-wing government, that violated its pledge to protect and uphold the constitution, run amok. don't worry, though dweeb, we're gonna take it back. (hey, i'm a white guy, but would it be ok if i quoted malcolm x here, and said "by any means necessary"? nah, never mind. we can do this legally... he's dead an' i'm happy!!!!! no, you're just a brainless f*cking trogladyte. go beat up some soccer fans. ignorance is bliss, so drool on with that stupid smile on your face when people die needlessly. i hope a badger climbs up your kilt. (don't expect these ukies to care about this, folks... these bastards never did like the idea that we americans had the means to defend ourselves and wouldn't stand for tyranical governments, which is why we sent them packing back to their dreary little island with their tails between their legs twice.) * i remember what i was doing * bad boy, whatcha gonna do * * when i heard that jfk had been shot. * whatcha gonna do * * will you remember the battle of waco? * when they come for you... * ken whitehead (kdw@odin.icd.ab.com) 
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 in a previous article, spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (steve lamont) says: the comsymp zog wants you to think that it is the only legitimate possessor of nuclear weapons. unconstitutional! you and i have just as much right to a kilogram or two of nice weapons grade plutonium as any cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos pinkos. ah yes, yet another anti-semite anti-gunner blunders into tpg and makes an ass of himself. satire \'sa-tir\ n [mf or l; mf, fr. l _satura_, _satira_, fr. (lanx) satura full plate, medley, fr. fem. of _satur_ sated; akin to l _satis_ enough - more at sad](1509) 1: a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn. 2: trenchent wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly. syn see steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "my other car is a car, too." - bumper strip seen on i-805 
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 note - local tx groups trimmed out of newsgroups: line <in article <1r208f$bp2@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (c. d. <>no, you were right the first time. law enforcement agencies should keep <>his opinions in mind before breaking into or assaulting anybody's house. <ok, let me correct my unfortunate choice of words: i just hope that the <law enforcement agencies keep your attitude in mind the next time your <wife is gang-raped by a bunch of juvenile, drug-dealing thugs while she <was jogging in the park. no, strike that... (etc.) <>the batf came out with horse trailers, 100 men, ninja uniforms, machine <>guns, and stun grenades, and used them before koresh could even look <>at the warrant. koresh fought back, and people died. <the key part of this sentense is "koresh fought back." this was his big <mistake. when the police decide to exert their authority over you, you <don't fight back unless you want people to get hurt. you cease all <resistance and signal your submission to their authority. the cops they are the boss. you are the subject. the concept of defense against illegal action under color of law is kaput. no longer is it government of the people by the people, its government of the people by the biggest guns. the idea of 'sorting it out in court later' is fine, but one has to get to court in one piece to do that. korash had good reason to think that he was not going to get that chance. (see below). <aren't in it to beat up and kill people, in spite of the actions of a <few bad apples. if you quit resisting, they quit hitting. perhaps the <batf did over react to the threat posed by koresh. perhaps they did use <too much force. ok, fine. i'm willing to concede to that point if <sufficient proof is produced (and i admit that there is some evidence to <indicate this). however, resisting the batf is the worst thing koresh <could have done. if they hadn't resisted, there is a good chance that <no one would have been hurt. remeber, they were using stun grenades, <not anti-personnel grenades. if the bds were not in violation of any rember, korash didn't get to sort this all out, serenely typing at his keyboard. he heard some kind of explosives go off, he saw he was being attacked with no overt action from him (yet). he could no more say 'oh, its ok, its only stun grenades' anymore than i could. he slammed the door at that point and proceeded to repel the attackers. he felt in genuine fear of his life - i know i would be in fear of my life at that point. have you ever been shot at? how clear and logically could you think, under that pressure, when you might have all of 1 or 2 seconds to evaluate what is going on? and, it would not be the first time that 'law enforcements' intended to bring in their suspect horizontally. for all we know, he was informed by someone saying something like "hey, guy, the batf is coming like gangbusters, and they mean to waste you..." according to the latest news, the released warrant (so we are told) said the reason for this ww iii raid was that korash's group had spent around $200,000.00 on firearms and related stuff (over an undetermined period). now, even assuming that the figure isn't calculated like the feds do a drug siezure, for 90 people, that isn't really all that much (you priced decent guns lately?). hell, i can think of a person right now that probably has that much for one individual, mostly machineguns!!! sure, he is an avid collector, but unless a new law has been passed, it is not illegal, nor an indication of anything illegal, to have a lot of guns. also note that the warrant had nothing to say about machine guns. so, what is the justification of this cowboy raid, other than a romp gone bad for some anti-gun media hype, to support clinton's push for disarming the unconnected citizen of any and all effective defensive weapons? this administration has only one thing in mind. control. people control. whether it is gun control, clinton cripple chip, national smart id cards, it all boils down to people control. can you say 1984, only 10 years late? i knew you could... :-) <laws, they would have been released as they had been before. if this <had happened and it turned out that the batf had used too much force, <then the bds would have grounds for a law suit and for federal charges <of civil rights violations (sounds a lot like la, huh? don't take that <wrong, i'm not commenting one way or the other about the rodney king <case). but that's not what they wanted. they got tipped off that the <batf was on the way in, and rather than adopting a non-violent, <non-threatening posture to greet the batf, they decided to fight. and batf knew the bds were expecting them (via 60 minutes report). but they decided they were so big, so bad, they would have a cakewalk at the bds expense, for a nice media show anyway. but it all turned to shit, and the fbi taking over to manage things, we see it all turned to shit, too. clinton says 'i am taking full responsibility'... bah. responsibility means to take the repercussions if it goes wrong. bet you nobody pays any serious repercussions. 'responsibility' only has meaning as media pr, or as a means to corner the average joe schmoe. figure it out... clinton, reno, the fbi and batf, will all be immune. can you say whitewash? <i've said enough of this issue. i'm probably not going to convince any <of you folks and you're certainly not going to convince me. i've got <work to do. < ++don be very afraid of our government. in the land of the free... and if you decide all this is acceptable, get even more afraid... especially when it is you they decide, for some reason, they dislike... when they no longer feel the need to confine their cowboy tactics to 'kooks', or 'wierdos'... pat@rwing.uucp [without prejudice ucc 1-207] (pat myrto) seattle, wa if all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat wisdom: "only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the former." - albert einstien 
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 b urn a ll t he f uckers 
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 [posting the text of h.r. 711 ...] to amend title 18, united states code, to ensure that handguns are available only to persons with demonstrated knowledge and skill in their safe use, maintenance, and storage. 8 "(1)(1)(a) an individual who is not licensed under 9 this section may not possess a handgun on or after the 10 date final regulations are prescribed pursuant to para- 11 graph (2) unless the individual has been issued a handgun 12 permit under paragraph (2). note that this is a "licensing bill," pretending to be a "training bill." gridlock, the only mechanism ever to succeed in slowing down the growth rate of big government. 
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 one of our asu students needs data and or a copy or an article regarding accidents, injury or death to "children" (articles which state the age limits of "children") relating to firearms for a sociology report. we have a copy of the long edgar a. suter, m.d. article and but we can't find the paul blackman (nra) "expose'". any articles (or sections thereof) which deal with comparisons over time, locations, age groups, other reasons for accidents, injury or death, with percentages would be welcome. please send same to our i.d. and node. thanks in advance ! -tom crise 
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 ...gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings (especially youths), domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger, and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street-level what gives you the idea that gun "buyback" programs will have an impact on any of these things? evidence, please? please don't misinterret what i was saying joe. i was making the point there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents. if you're a "research associate" in "urban child research," then perhaps you can comment for us on the ratio of the accidental gun death rate to the rate of accidental death from other single causes? follow that perhaps with some sort of justification for the amount of effort that anti-gunners spend trying to convince the country that accidental gun-related death among children in the u.s. is a serious problem. firearms are the fifth-leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under. i don't understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important. so guns don't kill as many children as car accidents. what is the difference in severity between 1,000 deaths and 10,000 deaths? i am not trying to use accidental gun-related deaths among children as a justification for gun control. who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem? i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any 10 year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends. any death is serious. wanna discuss match control? firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under are the fault of one or more negligent persons, not the gun. more than anything, gun buyback programs are symbolic offerings to the community. in that sense, i think they might do a little good. please explain why you think "symbolic offerings" do good. my point was, gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might (i stress might) do a little (i stress little) good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way. overall, i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were providing false hope, then, is the intent? i do know that the vast majority of guns that are used by youths or brought to school by youths on a daily basis (about 135,000 youths) are obtained easily and quickly, through a personal friend, or more often "borrowed" from a parent without their knowledge. i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these "statistics" - i suspect you'll find if you look carefully that 135,000 is the number of students *estimated* to have carried *a weapon* (not necessarily a gun) to school at least once in the past year, and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily. well joe, i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence or the centers for disease control. if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths. the cphv reports that 135,000 youth bring guns to school daily and that 400,000 bring guns to school at least once a year. the cdc estimates that 1 out 0f 25 high school students carried a gun to school at least once in 1990. the cdc also says that 1.2 million elementary-aged, latch-key children (kids who come home from school to an empty house), have access to guns in their home. california schools reported a 200% increase in student gun confiscations between 1986 and 1990, and a 40% increase between 1988 and 1990. florida reported a 61% percent increase in gun incidents in schools between 1986/87 amd 1987/88. these are the "statistics". 200% increase in california schools, eh? gun control is working fine, there! thus willing to follow a man who claimed to be the messiah (got news for you folks, if the big cheese was on this crazy planet of ours presently, he would not be carrying a gun or holding children when they were in danger). "holding kids?" time for a reality check, son. these kids were the children of the people inside who believed that the forces of evil were outside waiting to kill them. would you send *your* children out the door if you believed as they did? okay, maybe i worded it wrong...dad. i meant that to put children in a situation (fortified compound) where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion. i'm not saying that koresh had control over these children directly, but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die. if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such, why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive? thanks for the reality check joe, its been real. so your religion is different. does that make it his wrong? even assuming koresh actually made that decision, and the verdict is still out on that. jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 "freed om of religion" has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming 10-year old children to be your wife. "i'll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals." oh, ok, david. i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator; this because he grew up inside the cult, and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego. that doesn't change the fact that he was a loose fucking cannon with a shitload of serious weapons. or that he was banging thirteen year olds and twisting their impressionable little minds. this was no move fuck-up. a helicoptor was thermal-imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously. there were no cs canisters... a specially modified abrams was pupming the stuff in. no chance of starting a fire there. kerosene lamps? maybe one, but not three fires. no way. koresh wasn't just talking out of his ass. i expected this to happen. maybe they wanted it to look like murder. he had 50+ days. i think this was coming the whole time. he didn't even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige. he put them up into the tower to die. fuck all of you "big brother" paranoid freaks. the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society. joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu i have not made up my mind about waco, but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of thier own. they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken. kinda reminds you of the bds, doesn't it? jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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 the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea, blindness, disorientation, total irrationality, raging paranoia. children would be all the more susceptible, and show the results all the if we are indeed talking about cs, then this is not quite accurate. cs is "just" tear gas--albeit the worst kind. it isn't a nausea gas, and doesn't have direct cns effects. however, it's quite bad--much worse than cn gas. i has anyone publically considered the possibility that the fires were set for defence instead of suicide and the destruction and confusion caused by the tanks and gas caused things to get out of the bds control? "spending programs are now 'investments,' taxes are 'contributions,' and these are the same people who say _i_ need a dictionary?" - dan quayle 2/19/93 my employer is not responsible for anything that may appear above. 
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 small arms rounds set off outside of a firearm pose little risk except possibly eye injuries and minor wounds. large concentrations of ammo, or 'magazines' (not the type you insert into your semi auto) probably pose a larger risk, but mostly from heat and flame. (this is also covered in the above reference.) no more risk than smaller stashes unless the stash is somehow confined so the heat from early ignitions could somehow bulk-heat the remainder. two years ago this month my house and office burned. in my office was my reloading bench. on the top shelf next to the wooden ceiling was about 100 lbs of smokeless powder, 5 lbs of black powder, several thousand primers and a couple thousand loaded rounds, primarily in .45acp, .30-20 and .308. the fire was extinguished before the area containing the reloading supplies were fully involved. there was about 1/2" of char on the joists, subsequently removed by sandblasting. lots of heat in other none of the powder kegs ignited. one 1lb can of pistol powder ignited. no explosion, as the can opened at the seam as it was designed to do. the black powder cans were charred and got so hot the plastic lids completely melted and ran down inside. the smokless powder was contained mostly in 8 lb cardboard or metal kegs. the kegs were charred badly enough that the paper labels burned completely off and in the case of the metal cans, the plastic lids melted completely away. many of the rounds cooked off. they were in close proximity to wood on all sides so the effects were easy to observe. in most cases with the rifle ammo, the cartridge cases ruptured in the middle. many bullets were found still in the neck. small shards of brass were lightly stuck into the wood. lightly enough that brushing them with a fingertip would usually dislodge them. primers generally popped out of the primer pockets. the .45acp rounds that cooked off left empty cases and bullets laying around. no dents were observed above the storage area, indicating the bullets left the cases slowly enough not to be a hazard. ordinary small arms ammo is not a hazard when cooking off regardless of what the fbi says. john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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 [massive dan blather mercifully deleted.] his last sentence says it all. who the hell are we (or the government) to judge their religion as wrong. this event, i hope, will be recorded in history as the american holocaust. these people were murdered by the us government just as surely as the jews were by the nazis. i hang my head in shame for what i've allowed my government to become. i have never judged them by their religion, but by their actions. if they had lived a quiet, religious life as they claimed, there would have been no raid, no siege, and no deaths. instead, they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid, if not irrational. the first was to stockpile weapons. the second was to shoot federal agents. the third was to stay inside. last time i checked, "amassing an arsenal" and practicing any kind of religion were mentioned in passing in the bill of rights. guess it's ok with you if we just brush 'em aside in order to justify killing a bunch of religious nutcakes, eh? of all the idiots i run into in daily life, dan, your type scare me the most. you'll accept expediency and a coward's safety over any belief just as long as the government tells you to. you assume that anyone who doesn't comform to your beliefs and ways of thinking are wrong and therefore bad. worse, you seem to accept without question what the government says is wrong to be wrong. david koresh's religion was not mine but then again, neither are the baptists, methodists, catholics or any of the rest of the corporate religions. but even though koresh's, the baptists, the methodists, etc, don't believe the same way i do, i recognize that their religions are equally valid to mine and more importantly are equally protected under the 1st amendment. you see, i'm not that much different than koresh and i suspect many others fit the same catagory. i read the bible many times and as i learned from it, i discovered that a lot of what corporate religions practice just isn't justified by my interpretation of the bible. therefore i go my own way. so did koresh. and neither you nor i nor anyone else, either individually or collectively as the great socialist "we" has any right whatsoever to tell me or you or koresh that our religions are wrong. you seem to think that it would have been oh so easy for the davidians to just forsake everything they believed in and walk out of their compound in order to "save themselves". think (if you're capable) for a moment about some belief you hold dearest. would you abandon that belief if suddenly told to do so by the government? if you would do so you are beneath contempt. let's assume you have a belief that you hold dear enough to commit your life to. do you think it would be the correct course of action for your government to initiate actions specifically designed to force you to make that "forsake or die" decision? the "forsake or die" option is exactly what the government forced on the davidians the day the first wave of black-clad stormtroopers fired that first shot and tossed that first grenade. the fbi clenched it on day 51 when they sent in heavy armor against 80-some-odd men, women and children holed up in a rickety old building and armed with small arms. the people who stayed, who held to their beliefs over personal safety, whose individual personal honors demanded they die rather than submit, who believed that the bill of rights meant exactly what it says, to those people go my deepest respect, regardless of their religion. people like you who blithely blow off the murder of 80 people with "well they could have come out" get my most scornful contempt. i'd spit in your face were there not a network between us. you're not worth the ashes of those people who burned. john de armond, wd4oqc |interested in high performance mobility? performance engineering magazine(tm) | interested in high tech and computers? marietta, ga | send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald: where are ya when we need ya? 
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 |> thank you for remembering matzada. matzada was not an insane act. it was |> a sanctification of g_d's name and the most extreme denial of tyranny |> possible. to this day the officers of the tzahal (isreal defense force) |> take their oath at the fortress. lo tepol shaynit matzadah. matzadah will |> not fall again! not anymore! recent archaeological inspection of the site presents pretty compelling evidence that the "mass suicide" at masada never occured. this evidence was so compelling tha the tzahal no long hold their secret ceremony at the fortress. * ron phillips crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com * * senior customer engineer * * intergraph electronics * * 381 east evelyn avenue voice: (415) 691-6473 * * mountain view, ca 94041 fax: (415) 691-0350 * first i've heard of this... could yo please elaborate a little? 
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 i was hoping that kent state taught us a lesson. apparently not. apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still. that's right. despite claims that someone at kent state fire a shotgun at the the soldiers, the only projectiles that anyone can prove where sent in the direction of the soldiers were rocks. john f. haugh ii [ pgp 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh ma bell: (512) 251-2151 [ dof #17 ] @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org no firearms were ever ever shot at the national guard at kent state. at the time of the shooting, no rocks were being thrown at all. the squad was slowly proceeding up a knoll, away from the body of students. some students were taunting them, and photographs of the incident show at most one or two students who were following and taunting. the series of photographs show the squad slowly proceeding up the hill, while occasionally their nco, .45 in hand turned back to look at where they came from. all at once, as if on command, the entire squad turned and fired their m1 garands, firing 30.06 rounds into the crowd (the nco can be shown with this 45 at full recoil). at least two of the students shot had nothing to do with the taunters... they were only passing through, and were not participants in the confrontation. there is some dispute whether the guard was even legally on campus... apparently they had not been invited onto the state school by the president, who had conveniently flown the coop, so as not to be around. the governor of ohio, james rhodes, had just embarked on a senate campaign, and wanted it to be known that he was tough on peaceniks, so had ordered the guard in. the matter was quickly covered up. some years later, wounded survivors launched a civil lawsuit against those responsible... a settlement was made, and under the terms, the plaintiffs could not discuss much, and guilty individuals were not identified (in fact, those shooters in the squad have been identified). it was a tragic incident, but it was not provoked by the students, or apparently by general delcorso or any of his command. from studying the incident & the photos, imo it looks like it was an independent action by a small squad of soldiers. 
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 what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf. if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened. they did have the proper equipment. the problem is that they went about things the wrong way. the atf should have served the warrant in a peacable manner instead of going in there like a bunch of rambos with guns blazing. i'm not trying to excuse what david koresh did. i'm just saying that the atf (henceforth to be known as the cigarette cops :-) went about the "raid" in an improper manner. the batf needs more people, better weapons and more armored transports. when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off. if you are going to do a job then do it right. the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job. let the fbi, customs, and local police officers do the atf's job. we don't need them anymore!!! the cigarette cops are just leftovers from prohibition days. they are an anachronism! with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever. if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours. including you? what if the cigarette cops kicked down your door and cut you in half with a machine gun? this could actually happen. maybe they get the wrong address and then raid *your* home, for example. it's happened before and it can happen *again*. i have heard of more than one instance of a no-knock raid going sour. just recently i heard about a case in which police raided this guy's home because they thought he had dope or something. the guy blew both of the officers away and he didn't go to jail for it. the judge hearing the case ruled that the man was acting in self-defense. with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power. they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death 51 days later. are you sure that that would have been the way to go? surely the fbi and atf could have handled this fiasco better. they didn't have to massacre all those people. as stimpy said in "fake dad", "shame, shame, double shame!" the fbi and atf should be ashamed of theirselves. scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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 anybody for impeachment? yeah, me. both the slickmeister and hillary's buddy janet say they're responsible... i want both their resignations on my desk yesterday. i also want both thier butts up on federal civil rights violations.... something which carries life in prison as a penalty. oh, and i'll contribute $20 to arlen specter's presidential campaign for having the 'nads to launch the senate investigation. i second that motion wholeheartedly. also, how about s**tcanning the cigarette cops (a.k.a. as the atf). comments anyone? -- glenn r. stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) ================== america in distress ================== (flag upside down = sos) *******=========== save your republic before *******=========== it no longer exists. *******=========== scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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 be as cooperative with the police as possible! show them where you were. repeat your information as often as requested. they will often ask you the same questions over and over to verify facts, and ,unfortunately, to see if your lying. fill out all statements and show all required identification and weapon permits (booo! down with registered citizens!register your politicians as deadly tax weapons needing to be confiscated!) if they are required in your state. contact a lawyer immediately if they decide to this would have to be a call. you are not required to say anything until you have a lawyer present, and not saying anything until such time is not to be construed as derogatory to your cause. anything you do say can later be used against you. you will be talking to the police, the same people who will be gathering evidence for the prosecutor to use against you. 
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 if even half the speculations of conspiracy made about this are true, then i would expect that you people should be calling for the atf, fbi, texas rangers, congress and all branches of the us government to be immediately and completey disbanded -- no jeez, do you people really beleive all this crap? do you also beleive in the zionist occupation government and the tooth fairy? jason - i've heard the people who are talking about this dismissed as conspiracy nuts, but nobody seems to be talking about a conspiracy, at least at the beginning. there were a lot of bad decisions that went into this tragedy, and some people may now be taking some serious evasive action to avoid being held responsible for the unexpected results of those bad decisions. actually, the only ones i see that are tied into a conspiracy theory are the ones raving about deranged cultists with stockpiles of weapons and suicide pacts. admittedly mistakes were made but why attribute them to malice rather than stupidity? i think there are a lot of us that have been following this pretty closely from the beginning, and we woud probably agree that this tragedy was more the result of stupidity than malice. jason durbin oracle europe 
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 does that include the right to murder little children? how about killing atf officers? i do not know much about the gun laws in texas, but koresh's folks claimed to have grenades, grenade launchers, and rocket launchers. i am not sure that the nra feels that this falls under "right to bear arms." if the waco wackos truly had grenade launchers and rocket launchers, why weren't they used against the armored vehicles that attacked their house? all the media stated was that small arms (ie, ineffective) fire was used against them. i noticed that too. special agent (asshole actually) ricks stated that david koresh had "explosives that could blow up an armored vehicle 40 feet into the air." it looked like to me that the bds had plenty of opportunity to use these explosives---provided that they had them in the first place. for example, when one of the tanks was injecting cs gas into the ranch house (yes ranch house; the bds weren't living in a fortress) they could have easily destroyed or disabled that tank because it was idling there for a considerable length of time. so, why didn't they do this? could it be that they didn't have any explosives or similar munitions? i just don't buy what the atf and fbi have been saying. hopefully, the truth will come out. here's something noteworthy: after the fire had been burning for some time an explosion occurred---just *one* explosion. the media said that this was some of the explosives that the bds posessed going off. i don't think this was the case. my brother and i noticed that this so-called "explosion" resembled a plume of propane gas being ignited. we figure that this is what it was because of how the "explosion" looked and sounded. obviously, it wasn't due to something like tnt, dynamite, or c4. i have seen a propane explosion before...the explosion in the ranch house greatly resembled this. also, i noticed something that looked like a propane tank in the charred ruble the next day. isn't it curious that the atf wasn't very forthcoming about how the four officers got killed? many weeks had gone by before they stated that some of the officers had been killed and/or wounded by grenades thrown by the bds. earlier, when someone asked one of the spokespersons about whether or not an autopsy had been performed on the slain agents, they said that an autopsy had been done but they weren't ready to release the findings. now why is this? does the atf have something to hide? perhaps those four agents were killed by friendly fire. what is the cause of death exactly? no one has ever said what it is. what is certain is this: atf agents *did* throw grenades into the compound. as a matter of fact, mr. koresh handed his lawyer a grenade body during one of the lawyer's visits to the compound. later on the lawyer gave the grenade body (i don't know if it was a dud or a spent one btw) to the atf. how much do you want to bet that this grenade will mysteriously disappear? at this point in time the only people we know who had grenades was the atf agents. wouldn't it be a shocker if the no one ever found any evidence of grenades, rockets, or explosives in the rubble? the atf would sure have egg on their face then. note that the atf is doing the *initial* sweep of the rubble. the fbi and the texas rangers won't investigate until the atf is done. this looks like a perfect opportunity for the atf to make sure that others "find" what they want for them to "find" if you know what i mean. i'm probably being a little paranoid here but if i am i have could reason to be. recall that several weeks had gone by before anyone said that the bds had used grenades. also recall that early on the atf had *denied* that their agents used grenades on the bds. someone is lying here. scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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 i just called texas' legislative bill tracking service and found out that hb 1776 (concealed carry) is scheduled for a floor vote today! let those phone calls roll in. daryl biberdorf n5gjm d-biberdorf@tamu.edu + sola gratia + sola fide + sola scriptura 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns55113">
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 two urgent requests: 1. i need the latest update and description of ma bill s-897. from what i gather this bill takes the hunter safety courses from law enforcement and places them under fish & game control. 2. has someone out there compiled a list of all ma senate & house bills under consideration? if they have, please e-mail me the list. if not, is there a database i can access? yours in the fight, mike p. p.s. my wife and i thought nancy b. was great on street stories. mike procanik (617) 466-4126 mjp1@gte.com *** i'm the nra *** gte laboratories incorporated, 40 sylvan road waltham, ma 02154 
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 i just called texas' legislative bill tracking service and found out that hb 1776 (concealed carry) is scheduled for a floor vote today! let those phone calls roll in. well, i don't normally like to quote myself, but i just got some additional information. i called my state rep (to express my support), and the person there informed me that it's actually just a second reading of the bill (three are required) for further consideration. i'm not 100% sure what *that* means, and i'm also not sure why there's a discrepancy between what the two offices are telling me. still researching.... daryl biberdorf n5gjm d-biberdorf@tamu.edu + sola gratia + sola fide + sola scriptura 
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 in a previous article, rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (morris the cat) says: |>>this is about the third person who's parroted the fbi's line about the |>>fires being set "six hours after the tear gas was injected." suppose you |how would the fed snipers have been able to witness the bds setting the |fire (as is claimed) through all that tear gas? i actually heard one report which claimed that infrared cameras saw the branch dividians setting the fires... now, you'll have to excuse yeah sure. maybe thermal gunsights on the armored vehicles. when discussing military hardware and weapons, the media generally looks like a ufology convention. my scepticism, but i find it quite strange that anyone would be operating a thermal viewer during a daytime battle. it would be unusual in the sense that the federales combat operation - gassing the bd with "cs2," whatever that is (is this the infamous "bz" hallucination gas?), from cs is merely the garden variety military teargas. as far as it being "humane and harmless", i've seen teenage boys knock 200lb. drill sergeants flat getting away from it.... i am pretty sure that newly-born religious groups will study these fbi tactics and build anti-armor barricades and tank traps to make "next time!" a lot bloodier for the federales... what do you expect when idiots and criminals confirm paranoids in their paranoia...? if you were smarter, you'd have these opinions.... 
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 i'd appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions: the brady bill was in the news throughout 1992 but what actually happened to it in congress? did bush veto it? if so, when? also, the state of virginia, i believe, just passed a gun control bill on febrauary 25 of this year. i think it limits gun purchases to one a month - is this correct? what was the bill number? 
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 anybody got arlen spectre's address? i want to write to him and thank him for showing the leadership to demand a congressional investigation into the waco mess. you are talking about the man who as a federal attorney did so much to frustrate the proper investigation of the jfk assassination by the house sub-committee on assassinations. fox and hen house??? joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. remember the alamo | truth is what the government chooses to remember waco | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. --jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns55125">
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 [snip].... the president is not competent to plan or judge the planning of such a raid, nor does he need to be. his job is to set basic policies and manage the people under him. if clinton instructed reno to preserve lives, and if she confirmed that the plan for the raid was a safe as could be, then he did his job. the president should not involve himself in the minor details of these kinds of operations. this sort of micromanagement only leads to disaster, as was demonstrated so well in vietnam. but the raid went bad: over 80 civilians have been killed in a controntation with u.s. authorities. now clinton enters the picture in a big way. will clinton start an investigation? or will he try to squash any attempt to investigate? is he a responsible leader? or is he only interested in protecting the image of his administration? we'll all find out as this unfolds. excellent point, mark. we should all remember that if nixon hadn't tried to cover up the misguided actions of some of his subordinates in the watergate burglary, the scandal would never have brought down his presidency. so far, klinton seems to be stonewalling this the same way tricky dick did. his whole case seems to be "we didn't do anything wrong". however, if in the course of the investigation it turns out that the gov't did do something wrong, and he tried to cover it up, then that's an impeachable crime, i believe... perhaps he is inadvertently cooking up his own scandal... can you say "wacogate", little neighbor?... ;-) * ya know, this being part of the "loyal opposition" is kinda fun for * * a change. i sure am glad i get to bitch about clinton rather than * * having to be one of those poor saps stuck trying to defend him. i * * wonder how michael kinsley likes being part of the establishment? :) * ken whitehead (kdw@odin.icd.ab.com) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.guns55126">
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 not necessarily. if the body had been denatured (cooked) or dehydrated due to the heat, a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate. in fire aftermaths, bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of meat with little effort. medical examiners tend not to like cleaning up such scenes. as such, if the body had been suitably cooked, a bullet comming from a magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the time of death, or much later, unless you were trained to look for the evidence. texas rangers are not pathologists. p.vasilion this is quite corect, but a bullet hitting a burned body with little energy will show virtually no deformation, ie a hollow point probably would not expand, an fmj would be "pristene". also the bullets will not be marked with the lands ang grooves of a barrel, because they didn't come out of one. a good pathologist should be able to notice this right away. let us hope that the me's that handle these bodies are more competent then the ones who did jfk's body. speaking of me's. the fbi said the fire victims were found face-up <fire victims, apparently, are usually found face down> suggesting they died prior to the fire. the me says, in a word, bullshit, the victims were face down. the fbi says they sent a body of a victim that was shot, supposedly by bd guards, the me says, in a word, bullshit, the body showed no evidence of gunshot wounds. can the atf/fbi tell the difference between cya and truth? + wayne j. warf -- wwarf@ucs.indiana.edu -- i speak for myself only + |*clinton*gore*cia*fbi*dea*assassinate*bomb*wod*bor*atf*irs*resist*nsa* | |*christian*god*satan*apocalypse*zog*nazi*socialist*communist*explosive*| +*fundamentalist*revolution*nsc*federal reserve*constitution*gold*fema* + 
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 (aaron ray clements) writes:>> >the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms. clearly and unequivocally, without infringement. i saw this nifty drawn out posting and i thought i might give the two of you a little help with your problem. as you both know what you posted,(and this foolish thing gave me so much shit last time i tried to post) i took the liberty of deleting all but the header and a single quote. i hope you don't as written the second ammendment states rather clearly for anyone who can read the following: " a well regulated militia, being necessarry to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." what is regulated? regulated means "controlled"! how about security? well hey! that would be along the lines of being and feeling safe wouldn't it? wow! we have a concept forming here don't we!? now what have we left? "the right of the people people people people people people people (sorry got kinda hungup there) shall not be infringed" oops! backup there,hmmm.. "infringed"....that'd be like interfered with, altered, changed or watered down in any way,shape or form! so! what we have here in it's big old long winded version would be. " a well controlled militia, being necessary to the secure/safe feeling of state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be fucked with in any way shape or form by some happy ass good for nothing in some piddly government building who wants to run my life in the pursuit of his happiness!" the item is clear and concise in it's present form my young friend! it does not need my clarification or that of any other. this is only ammendment which guarantees the continued existence of the others. it's whole purpose is to give people recourse against the military machine of a government which fails to properly represent it's creators!us! james madison, federalist paper 41 (regarding the "general welfare" clause): "nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars." any replies or comments can be sent too kane. djh4484@rigel.tamu.edu "no representative government need fear it's armed citizens" "death to tyrants!" "the only thing we have to fear......is me!" 
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 <mgb@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu> says: from a.p. : according to numerous accounts by those in the compound, the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank, and turning over numerous gas lanterns. oh? then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places? in particular, three different places where there were no apv's? and just where is the evidence for this? fbi sayso. the texas medical examiner refuted 2 of their lies today. and if the government did start the fire, then why weren't people trying to get out of the compound? let me put you in a building, pump in cs, knock the walls down around you and see how fast you find an exit. and besides... oh, i don't know why i'm even bothering. i don't know why either, you're willing to swallow everything fed you. good boy. i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story, despite much evidence to the contrary. i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous, heavily-armed religious cult, despite much evidence to the contrary. thought experiment: suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration. what would your answer be then? would you still prefer to believe the cultists? oh a clinton apologist, why didn't you *say* so. (no, i don't really expect a response to that challenge.) but then again, that is how mr. clinton was elected, by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office. um, isn't that how all politicians are elected? if people will believe that of any politican, it is little wonder they will believe all of the factoids being given out as fact by the clinton/reno/fbi/batf confederation. so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people? are they, like, just plain evil, or what? did they just wake up one day, stretch and yawn, and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day? i'm eager to know. the kgbatf was expecting a quick victory while the cameras rolled, however, they were the only ones with a script. and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader? how is he on diabolical laughter? does he look good in a cape? these things must be investigated. you first. hey, you're the apologist, *you* tell us. "...so i propose that we destroy the moon, neatly solving that problem." [your blood pressure just went up.] mark sachs is: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu disclaimer: if psu knew i had opinions, they'd try to charge me for them. + wayne j. warf -- wwarf@ucs.indiana.edu -- i speak for myself only + |*clinton*gore*cia*fbi*dea*assassinate*bomb*wod*bor*atf*irs*resist*nsa* | |*christian*god*satan*apocalypse*zog*nazi*socialist*communist*explosive*| +*fundamentalist*revolution*nsc*federal reserve*constitution*gold*fema* + 
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 andy@sail.stanford.edu (andy freeman) says: this is where freeman's love of accuracy becomes really ridiculous. good - now let's look at those sections. they'll prove my point. [his point was that it is possible under certain circumstances for many people to carry concealed in illinois] (a) a person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: (4) carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm; note that this doesn't affect all concealed carry. (look after the word "except".) it always helps to read the law before commenting on i did read the law before i commented on it. judging from replies i received about my "semantics on t.p.g" post many (if not most) people here on t.p.g assume that when ccw laws are asked about the person is asking about the possibility of an ordinary citizen getting one. it would also follow that said person would get the ccw to carry on his/her person away from their home and/or would a prudent storekeeper carry concealed? how about someone at home? note that both are legal, and a lot of "common" people qualify for one or the other. maybe freeman did prove his point but his point is not relevant. the thing that most people seem to care about when they ask questions about carrying a concealed weapon is whether or not they can carry it concealed on their person when they are out on the street somewhere. i'm sure that not many people are concerned with whether or not they can carry concealed at home. speaking as someone who lives in illinois (the only place where the above quoted law is relevant :-)) i know that it is legal to own a handgun here (i am not taking into account city ordinances). i could care less about whether or not i can carry concealed at home. i only care about the fact that i can't carry concealed in the place where it really counts- out on the street. freeman loves to be accurate and i can understand that (especially not) but he seems to be forgetting that accurate facts don't always replace common sense. i am not going to followup to this thread anymore because i believe that it is useless to argue these points anymore. the only thing that is happening now is that freeman and i are "running around in circles" trying to prove each other wrong and i do not have the time to be playing games anymore. of course now freeman will attack me about my use of common sense in some of my earlier posts but what can i do. my only advice for freeman - quit being so picky about accuracy sometimes and use your common sense; it really does work some- jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu 
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 is there nowhere on the net that this guy will not post? not to mention, is there anywhere that he makes any sense?! of course there is. perhaps the vogons will put in a hyperspace bypass so that he can get there. alan t. furman | don't blame me -- i voted libertarian atfurman@cup.portal.com | (800)682-1776 for more information 
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 i've yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell's soup and m-16's/ar-15's and banging/marrying thirteen yuear (sic) olds. so out of the numerous baptists that you hang around with you haven't seen any of the above behavior? which trait (stocking food for more than a week, or owning a firearm) is the definition of a cult? what proof ( aside from david's aquittal ) leads you to believe that any "banging/marrying" of thirteen year olds was going on? does your wife know that you equate 'marriage' with 'banging'? (sic) oh, you're really bright. as if nobody would have understood it was a several parents with children who either had at one time or currently were inside the compound made the aforementioned charges. one parent actually spoke about said charges (in reference to his 13-year old daughter) with koresh on the phone. you missed my point entirely. you're a sorry son of a bitch if you can't draw a distinction between these two things. since this guy doesn't like the concept of freedom of religion, he's going to insult you and your mom! since you're unable to formulate a cogent response, you make a lame joke. people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren't deserved of it. get a life and chill on the sociopath - person with asocial or antisocial beahavior. sociopaths - 200 persons, all who can't stand other people, sharing the same ranch-house. anti-social. normally meaning a response against societal norms. stealing is sociopathic behavior. it's not an oxymoron to have a group of sociopaths. i guess you're not a psychologist. oh well... joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu ^^^---it all suddenly becomes clear. maybe you should get an education, my man. why does everyone discover the net in the spring? why won't some assholes use a sig so i can send them mail instead of wasting bandwidth? joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu 
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 ------------------------- original article ------------------------- the colorado daily recently reprinted the wall street journal's article on paxton quigley, including the nefarious little paragraph the journal tacked onto the end. after recieving much assistance from various t.p.g. type folks, i wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph, and surprise, surprise, surprise, they published it. the text follows. the colorado daily, btw, is the university of colorado (boulder) student (i think) newspaper... not exactly a big coup, but every little bit, i guess... (the title was the only thing they changed/added) "gun stats" the daily recently reprinted an article from the wall street journal, primarily concerned with paxton quigley, author of "armed and female." the article, in turn, cites a misleading statistic that was originally reported in the new england journal of medicine. the article states, "a study... found that a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner, spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder." this is an often-quoted statistic, and it is misleading for sev- eral reasons, outlined below: the study gives the impression that, if you own a gun, the likelihood that you will successfully use it to defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned against you. the study, however, fails to take into account cases where a law-abiding citizen uses a gun to thwart a crime, without actually killing the perpe- the study actually refers to 'acquaintances' rather than 'friend'. this would include the friendly neigh- borhood thug who shows up like clockwork, every month, the second your grandmother cashes her social security check. possibly an acquaintance, but hardly a the nejm study is based on the immediate dis- position of cases and fails to take into account cases originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be self-defense. especially considering the small sample size (396), taking these events into account has a sub- stantial effect on the 43:1 ratio quoted. criminologist gary kleck gives us a slightly dif- erent statistic: a gun is 33 times more likely to be used, successfully, by a private citizen against an aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all. further, per- sons defending themselves from aggression by using a gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by some other means, or who offer no resistance at all. statistics available from the fbi and other agencies also show that a gun is 245 times more likely to be used by a non-criminal to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit criminal homicide, 535 times more likely to be used to defend against a criminal threat than to accidentally kill anybody, and 50 times more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit suicide. it is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics. one has to consider carefully what questions were asked by those gathering the data before one can draw an accu- rate conclusion from them. d.f. taylor cu department of chemistry and biochemistry spooksmoke: revolution, assasination, thorium, cobalt-60, clintin, cia, nsa, shc dod #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu send me something even you can't read... -----begin pgp public key block----- version: 2.2 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1/40vpjmmntfr+vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn/v/qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4= =s5ib -----end pgp public key block----- 
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 hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes... the b.b.c. are also reporting that bodies of b-d members were found with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot attempting to leave the compound during the fire. can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? bullets go flying every where. imho, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines went up. unlikely. ammunition is not as dangerous when simply burned as it is when fired from a gun. the brass case is not capable of holding the pressure generated by burning powder, and will (unless supported by the walls of a gun barrel or chamber) simply split open. while this may cause small pieces of brass to fly around, it will not propel the bullet with any significant velocity. in fact, it was not uncommon in years past to dispose of old loaded cartridges by burning them. as long as you were not close enough to take a piece of flying brass in the eye, you were reasonably safe. thus, the detonation of loaded magazines or loose rounds might cause slight injury but would be unlikely to cause fatal bullet wounds. -- alane -- / nobody shares my opinions, | "i am a jelly doughnut" \ / especially not my employer | -- president john f kennedy \ 
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 according to wnci 97.9 fm radio this morning, dayton, ohio is operating a gun "buy back". they are giving $50 for every functional gun turned in. they ran out of money in one day, and are now passing out $50 vouchers of some sort. they are looking for more funds to keep operating. another media-event brought to you by hci. is there something similar pro-gun people can do ? for example, pay $100 to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm ? sounds a bit tacky, but hey, whatever works. as david veal points out, this sort of "promotion" would be used against gun owners by the mass media. however, here is my proposal: offer gun safety classes in your area, free, as a community service. such a class would normally cost $40 or $50, so offering it free is a good promotion. our gun club has organized several of these (we just finished teaching another one last night, in fact) and they have been very well received. we get a lot of people who are novices interested in guns. we even get a few who are anti-gun, but feel they should know something about "gun safety" since members of their family keep guns at home. teaching such a course gives us many desirable benefits: (1) we have the chance to teach gun safety rules; this increases firearm awareness and may help to reduce gun accident stats. (2) a "gun safety" class is politically correct, and likely to be viewed positively by the public and the media. (3) most of the students are 'normal people' (not gun enthusiasts) and this kind of class gives us the chance to give them a gentle introduction to firearms. (4) some of the students are enthusiastic, and will purchase a gun and become more involved in shooting or personal defense. (5) it improves the public perception of our club and gun owners in general. our students see that we are all reasonable, non-aggressive, soft-spoken people, which helps to mitigate the standard image of a hardcore gun owner. even anti-gun students sometimes tell us they have "something new to think about" with regards to personal gun ownership. (6) sharing our experience with others is a lot of fun. our course is the standard nra-certified "home firearm safety" class, and our students pay only $5 for materials. we also teach the nra's "personal protection" class, although the cost is higher for that one since we have to purchase range time. i think firearms safety classes are an excellent response to gun buy-backs. -- alane -- / nobody shares my opinions, | "i am a jelly doughnut" \ / especially not my employer | -- president john f kennedy \ 
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 this is my first time on the network, but i am very concerned with this incident in waco. i will refrain from stating my opinions until after i have read the faq. could someone tell me how to get this? i must say that i believe the govt. was wrong in the actions that they took in this situation. portenier icsgh339@trex.oscs.montana.edu 
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 i'd appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions: the brady bill was in the news throughout 1992 but what actually happened to it in congress? did bush veto it? if so, when? the brady bill passed the house in 1992, but failed to reach a vote in the senate. as such, it never reached bush. (sarah brady's condemnation not-withstanding). it'll probably pass the house again, and will probably pass the senate if they can get it to a vote. whether of not they'll be busy with other things will be the question. i don't expect gung-ho opposition on the part of senate republicans, since they won't want to over-use their fillibuster trump card. david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed\ when you pushed me down the elevator shaft\ ... sometimes i get to thinking you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" yankovic. 
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 a friend recorded cnn news during the gassing and incineration of the bd's. i went through it carefully today, and found something very interesting. a tank is pulling out of the house, and there is a fireball, maybe 24" across that lasts for about 1 second. exactly ten minutes and thirty nine seconds later, the smoke starts billowing out of that area of the building. now, i'm no govt. spokestwinkie, so it might really have been a weather balloon or something. perhaps someone would check it out and comment. 
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 } they assembled a frightening arsenal of weapons what, exactly, did you find frightening about their weapons? the lethality in small part, but mostly what i found frightening was the fact that they were wielded by people who believed that they ate breakfast every morning with jesus christ. now i wasn't there in galilee back in the roman occupation, so i don't know for certain that david koresh was not jesus christ, but i strongly suspect that he was not (even aside from the fact of never having seen them in a photograph together). }by circumventing laws which were intended to prevent such a buildup. which laws are you making reference to? i admit i can't cite a specific, but if there isn't a law against purchasing grenade components and assembling them into functioning units then perhaps we need one. all second ammendment arguments aside, i'm just not sure that i like the idea of private citizens with hand grenades. nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu nengle@silver.ucs.indiana.edu 
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 wrong about the whole guns-for-protection mindset, it ignores the systemic effects of cumulative individual actions. if you want fire insurance on your house that's prudent and it has no effect on me; but if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the backcountry it makes me, and anyone else who doesn't chose to protect himself in this manner, pretty f**king nervous. why? if you're not a threat, you're not affected at all. aha. that's the part that makes me nervous too. who gets to decide if i am a threat? when i might possibly be on the receiving end of a violent gesture, then *i* get to decide for myself. if someone does not like it, too bad. i would be doing exactly what you or any other living creature would do in terms of evaluation. what's the big deal? based on appearance? would someone feel more threatened when approached by a very dirty, smelly, slightly-maniacal looking person with a slight glaze to the eyes, muttering to himself? i might. doesn't this describe most backpackers after they've been out more than a couple of days? not in my experience. and let us not forget that context is often an important factor in evaluating a situation. seeing disheveled persons on a hiking trail is not likely to be evaluated equally with meeting a grimey sort, as described above, on a lonely city street at 3 am. anyone that cannot properly discriminate between these two different situations is legitimate fodder for the old "survival of the fittest" or based on something else? proximity? no room to pass on the trail without getting *real close* to someone. an inner sense? now i'm really getting nervous. sounds like you doubt your own abilities. you sound pretty typical in this respect. you also seem to think that you'll be safe or safer if others are unarmed. this is dangerous twice when i was hiking the a.t. i came up on a shelter that i was planning on staying at and saw someone sitting there cleaning his gun. softly i backed away, and hiked another 5 miles to get *out of there*. i'll freely admit it here: i'm not afraid of guns; i'm afraid of people that bring them into the backcountry. then you are in need of some form of therapy. not necessarily that of an analyst, but maybe you should learn about guns. your fear is seems to be based in ignorance and false knowledge. you see a person with a gun and you feel threatened. why is this so? have you any legitimate basis for this? any first-hand experience that lends validity to your fears? or are your fears based on mediated experience, i.e. the anecdotes of others such as network news? i trust you can see the lack of legitimacy in such mediated inputs? and why are you afraid of the people as mentioned above? forgive me, but you sound afraid to the point of paranoia. perhaps you should talk to someone about this. i am not saying this to be rude or fascetious, but i think anyone with fear as deep and baseless as yours *seems* to be needs some sort of help. living in fear really sucks, even if it is only when around people with guns in the back country. tell me: would you be as fearful of a park ranger who was right in front of you with their side arm in clear view? why or why not? -andy v. 
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 eighth amendment: 1) the davidians suffered cruel and unusual punishment when: f> thoes who escaped were imprisoned without bail without a happens all the time, they were arraigned the next day, i'd doubt you'd have any luck on this point. i had heard that not all were arraigned yet, some were being held as "material witnesses." 
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 i have never spoken for a ban against guns in america ! what i've said is that there seems to be to many of them, and especially to many in wrong hands.... now if you would like to reduce the number, how would you do it without affecting good/responcible gun owners ?? i do believe in a persons freedom. what i don't believe is that you can have it all and don't pay for it. most europeans believe in a society of individuals, and that you have to give 'a little' to make that society work. cars and guns should really not be mixed, i just tried to make a point. like america, norway has some spaces you have to cross to get from a to b, so a car is essential in most parts.... guns on the other hand are not essential in norway, so we don't argue that if we 'banned' guns we have to ban cars..... everyone who believe that hitler and ww2 could be avoided if there were more guns in germany in the 30's: please read some history! is this discussion about 1. banning weapons for all americans 2. making it harder for criminals to get one ?? change of name....... wrote that one after reading the first postings about the waco 'incident'. i still think there are 'some' posters should move their post to alt.conspiracy or make a new newsgroup. (if you read the first postings after the waco fire you should see who i mean......) did the batf get the warrant for a gun search only or was there other reasons. (child abuse for instance) doesn't the people reading this newsgroup have access to the clari.news.* hierarcy ?? (some seems rather mis/uninformed) (or is the clari.news.* hierarcy ruled and censored by the corrupt facist goverment??) thomas parsli 
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 : dear, dear. they could have come out. no, they probably couldn't. if you had ever been tear gassed, you wouldn't be so quick to condem. 
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 [joe, why don't you put your username on your account?] then the atf discovers he doesn't have proper permits for some of his purchases and failed to pay some taxes on them. or claims to have discovered so... it would hardly be the first time they raided someone based on incorrect evidence. was it a 'no-knock?' i really haven't heard anything on that. but clearly it was a "no-knock", according to the associated press report. here's something i found in my collection: excerpts from an article in the knoxville news-sentinel final edition monday, march 1, 1993 (the byline is associated press): waco, texas - fierce gun battles erupted sunday as more than 100 law officers tried to arrest the leader of a heavily armed religious cult. at least four federal agents and two cult members were reported killed. [...] the gun battles began when federal agents hidden in livestock trailers stormed the sect's head-quarters sunday morning, witnesses said. the agents had warrants to search for guns and explosives and to arrest howell, said les stanford of the atf in washington. [...] witnesses said the law officers stormed the compound's main home, throwing concussion grenades and screaming "come out," while three national guard helicopters approached. for a moment, there was no response. then the shooting began. i think "storming the sect's head-quaters" and "throwing concussion grenades" qualifies as a no-knock (or perhaps an illegal assault). he was not just another guy minding his own business. hell, give them all the guns in the world if they don't bother anyone. but he was a scary sort, don't you think? the sort of person you'd want your daughter to date? i probably not. but then again, neither are you. then he fired on the atf. that's not just a little mistake, or some red-white-and blue american defending his home against big brother. that shit doesn't fly. anyone with his background that will shoot and kill and just what is "his background"? what prior crimes had he been convicted of? federal law enforcement officials is not some good citizen whose crusade sorry, batf are "federal tax enforcement officials". they're not police, nor do they have police powers. charles scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu dept of physics, michigan tech, houghton, mi 49931 "... the people cannot be all, and always, well informed. the part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. if they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ..." thomas jefferson, nov. 13, 1787 
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 i admit i can't cite a specific, but if there isn't a law against purchasing grenade components and assembling them into functioning units then perhaps we need one. all second ammendment arguments aside, i'm just not sure that i like the idea of private citizens with hand grenades. are you aware you can make a grenade with gunpower and metal water pipes? maybe we should outlaw hardware stores and ammo reloading. are you aware that you can make a firebomb with gasoline? etc. justin ngai, 8 pounds, 2 ounces, born 4/24/93 
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 i made a few phone calls today, and found that if you call the bill room at the sacramento state capitol, you may order free of charge any bills that are currently being pushed. i was told that they will only fill an order of five bills per phone call, but when i asked kindly and told the nice lady that it was very important, she filled my order for ten. california state bill room 916-445-2323 sorry i forgot to include this in my previous letter but we also have to worry about state bills. these are the ones that i am currently aware of: sb 292 sb 247 sb 67 sb 89 sb 180 ab 117 ab 155 ab 166 ab 482 ab 501 my thanks to bob hale for providing the bill numbers! | peter d. nesbitt | air traffic controller | pnesbitt@mcimail.com | | | oakland bay tracon | | | cbr600f2 pilot | nra member ccx1380f | s&w .41 magnum carrier | hey! i fixed my sig.file! 
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 everyone discussing why the batf did this or didn't do that is missing the point. batf wanted to destroy koresh. everything they did was consistent with that objective. and having done that, they've declared victory by flying their flag over the ruins. regardless of who started the firefight or fire, i see the flag as nothing but arrogant. not only arrogant, but in plain bad taste. as though they had defeated a difficult foe, and done so with honor. i understand reno does not own the batf... doesn't bentsen, a texas boy at that, i believe? why is not bentsen from treasury as much out front as reno is? is he hiding behind her apron strings? the batf got sat on pretty early on. after the initial shooting was over, it pretty much become the fbi's show. (even that batf guy stopped showing up next to the speaker at the daily press conferences). david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed\ when you pushed me down the elevator shaft\ ... sometimes i get to thinking you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" yankovic. 
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 | the u.s. government has become a garrotte around the necks of its | citizens. just as with a garrotte, the more people struggle to breathe | the air of freedom, the more the government tightens its stranglehold. the | only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the | elimination of personal freedom. i think this is a little extreme, i am concerned about a couple of things i've seen lately. it seems to me that the government is *beginning* to enforce political correctness. the first king verdict was polically incorrect so the hell with constutitional protection from double jeopardy, try the cops again. the bd's are far as i can tell didn't do anything wrong. nothing that would justify the horrable end they were subjected too. they were simply polically incorrect in the extream. i can't help but wonder "who's next" jim shirreffs i speak for myself and only myself 
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 from the boston globe, thursday april 22 1993 p. 44 walpole man, 32, guilty in rape kenne, n.h. -- a walpole man charged with kidnapping a mother of two from her home, then raping and beating her, has pleaded guilty. roger santaw jr. also plead- ed guilty to an attempted escape from cheshire county jail last win- ter. santaw, 32 is scheduled to be sentenced next week. the rape last fall came six months after santaw was released from prision, where he spent 15 years for a rape he commit- ted when he was 16. (ap) [end of article] any reactions? did he do enough time? what should his penalty btw, walpole is a town in massachusetts. of course, new hampshire is close by. j. case kim kim39@husc.harvard.edu 
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 i want to see an independent investigation, with full prosecuting and subpoena powers. with felony prosecution where felony acts are found. fat chance, i bet. i bet the justice dept will have an internal investigation which will turn up at most 'poor judgement'. ooohhhhhhhh, can you say "independent prosecutor", geee, maybe ol' mr. walsh can do something useful after all..... (right, fat chance...) i'm responding at the risk of misreading your response, but i do have to tell my fellow conservatives to give it up, attacking reno/clinton/atf/fbi. they may have botched an operation, but they didn't kill anybody who never shot at them first. david koresh was a frigging lunatic. his followers had the combined i.q of a geraldo audience. the kids probably would have been those fucked up social rejects who go to freshman dances in high school, never to be seen again (except maybe in the band) until prom, when they show up like animals boarding the ark. then it's bowling till 3 in the morning..... (why....why?? did it happen to me??!!) anyway, the point is janet reno/bill clinton were only following the advice of trained, law enforcement officials who were experts in their fields. i'd rather have our leaders do that then micro-manage every crisis that comes along. then you'd really see trouble no matter what party or ideology the president and her (er.. i mean his) attorney general is. ryan c. scharfy rscharfy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 
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 remember me, tom? i hope you'll respond, and i seem to be a voice of reason or some such (i've been recieving fan mail, so naturally my ego is somehwat inflated of late), and hope to make a few points here. i have never spoken for a ban against guns in america ! what i've said is that there seems to be to many of them, and especially to many in wrong hands.... and our argument is that you cannot remove them from the people who need restricting and not remove them from the people who don't. a fairly simple problem, given our size and numbers. do you agree? we all believe criminals, particularly violent criminals, should not have firearms. the problem is making a law that does this without trodding upon the rights of the vast majority. nobody here seems to be able to do it, and i doubt anybody in norway can either. thus, we are left with a philosophical difference: does the safety of a few justify restricting the many? we say "no," while others say "yes." now if you would like to reduce the number, how would you do it without affecting good/responcible gun owners ?? can you provide a method that cannot be abused? i doubt it. i do believe in a persons freedom. what i don't believe is that you can have it all and don't pay for it. of course. this is not in contention. what is in contention is how much one has to pay. most europeans believe in a society of individuals, and that you have to give 'a little' to make that society work. it is this "giving a little" that makes americans wary... we have seen this argument before. you might remember how a chamberlain "gave a little" to a particular fascist/short asshole, and how such "appeasement" worked. while it might work in some instances, it doesn't work in others, and since we cannot predict the future we must be cautious in using actions that have a history of failure. cars and guns should really not be mixed, i just tried to make a point. like america, norway has some spaces you have to cross to get from a to b, so a car is essential in most parts.... guns on the other hand are not essential in norway, so we don't argue that if we 'banned' guns we have to ban cars..... cars are not essential in norway any more than they are in the usa. i'm willing to bet that you have neighbors that would be willing to drive you anywhere you wanted to go for a price. thus, cars are not essential for your transportation. however, the arguments presented show that, since cars are used to kill far more people than guns in the usa, it makes much more sense to restrict cars than it does guns. how one defines "essential" often depends upon what one is willing to go through for that service. when we look at the raw data, such comparisons are not individually weighed. everyone who believe that hitler and ww2 could be avoided if there were more guns in germany in the 30's: please read some history! this depends upon what the populace was willing to do. as desert storm proved, even an armed populace won't just revolt even when given a chance. still, would hitler have done all that he did with an armed populace? we have to wonder, as some of his first acts were to confiscate firearms. other points in history show that dictators were overthrown by arms in the hands of the populace. thus, we're left wondering if hitler would have been overthrown or if king george was just unlucky in keeping the usa as a colony. one can argue both sides; one also has to live with each action. is this discussion about 1. banning weapons for all americans 2. making it harder for criminals to get one ?? it is about #2, but so far all proposals to curtail #2 have wound up enforcing #1 as well. i only wish that "or" was so logical. change of name....... that was, on my part, purely in jest. i merely pointed out how we were from similar backgrounds racially, but of wholly different backgrounds politically. i thought this would underscore my point on how our cultures were so different despite similar heritage. did the batf get the warrant for a gun search only or was there other reasons. (child abuse for instance) batf can *only* enforce gun/tobaccco/alcohol violations. child abuse is a matter for the individual states and local authorities. doesn't the people reading this newsgroup have access to the clari.news.* hierarcy ?? (some seems rather mis/uninformed) that hierarchy is a paid-for feed at many sites. most people do not get it for this reason, and i suspect money, not censorship, is the main reason. do you get alt.sex* at your site? i can't read it here because of censorship and legal fears, so again our differences show. you have topless sunbathing, and in the usa we can watch a murder every fifteen seconds and yet breasts are forbidden on television. < dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > < isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > < usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > < unusual people. and flame them. > 
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 value gun shops where all the city's many fine community spirited drug dealers arm themselves.... such a fine posting, with the exception of these particular lines. i hope you don't *really* think that your average drug dealer actually purchases his gun(s) from a legal source. as a matter of fact, i know it. there were several shootings recently in which the guns had been purchased at the baltimore gunsmith, on broadway - a favorite place to get cheap "popular" pieces. by "popular" i am referring to the kinds of guns our local youth gangs like: pistol grip shotguns, cheap magnums, and tec-9s. i hate to poke a hole in your bubble, but i was referring to a specific gunstore, and specific incidents. any other questions? 
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 my sig has generated more mail than any of my posts. robin hood is a school financing plan wherein property rich school districts will have a portion of their tax revenue taken from them and given to property poor districts. the laudable plan is to equalize the per student spending. imho, however, it is a disaster waiting to happen. taxes will go up in 50% of the districts and we will lose control of how our tax money is spent. it penalizes districts that have excelled. and the election is saturday. along with city council, school board and the unfinished senate term. and after i exercise one right, i'm going to exercise another! dillon pyron | the opinions expressed are those of the ti/dseg lewisville vax support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when i'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when i'm home) |texans: vote no on robin hood. we need pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures. padi dm-54909 | 
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 firearms are the fifth-leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under. from the rkba archive, "rkba.004": "total firearm deaths for children (<1 through 14) at 587 (1988) is one of the smallest causes of deaths in children. cars, falls, burns, drowning, food ingestion are all much larger cause of deaths (7,988)." so, firearms are the 6th leading cause, after drowning and choking on food (at least for 1988). sorry charles...according to the national safety council, accident facts,1991 "in 1990, gun accidents were the fifth-leading cause of accidental death for children ages 14 and under." i don't understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important. so guns don't kill as many children as car accidents. what is the difference in severity between 1,000 deaths and 10,000 deaths? the difference is that a rational person would address the leading cause _first_, and address the lesser causes later. that thinking is so screwed up, i don't even know how to respond to it. a rational person would concentrate on motor vehicle deaths, and not attempt to affect childhood falls, drownings, gunshot injuries, etc.???????????????? so this so called rational person, (using your definition), if he or she were attempting to affect the leading causes of deaths for adults aged 25 through 64 would only worry about cancer, and would not try to decrease lesser causes such as heart disease, injuries, stroke, suicide, liver disease, chronic lung disease, homicide, hiv infection, or diabetes. oh, okay charles, that makes a lot of sense. i tell you what charles, i'll call the heart foundation and suicide hotlines and tell them that they are not acting rational and that they can all go home because they are addressing the lesser causes of death. and you call your local police homicide department, liver foundation and diabetes foundation and tell them to stop addressing these lesser causes. please, quit wasting my time with this silly shit charles. i've got an idea charles, why don't you start a talk.politics.caraccidents group or talk.politics.fall group? this is talk.politics.guns. don't confuse the issue. just because a social problem may not claim as many victims as another, we should not try to address it? i don't agree. i'm not posting to t.p.g to debate the supposed severity of causes of childhood deaths. i am really getting frigging sick of having to respond to the irrational statements of people who assume that someone who wants to discuss youth gun violence or unintentional youth gun deaths is trying to make a political issue out of it. i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any 10 year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends. a "humane person" who keeps a firearm in the house with a 10 year old would also teach this child how to safely handle the firearm; ignorance is our greatest enemy. again charles, you tend to confuse the issue and take things out of context for your own purposes. the statement that you responded to above is actually in reference to a previous post by another person who, like you, expressed concern over making youth gun violence a priority. i guess, maybe humane person and rational person could be interchangeable huh? both would be defined as "a person who only addresses the social problem that causes the greatest number of childhood deaths." if that is the case, i'm extremely glad that i am inhumane and irrational. well joe, i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence what _other_ sources of information do you have which confirms their data? these folks are well known for misrepresenting the facts. perhaps you can verify their data with the uniform crime report... sorry charles, the fbi uniform crime report is well known for misrepresenting the facts. but if you insist, according to the 1990 ucr, "firearm murders of youngsters 19 and under increased 125 percent between 1984 and 1990" is the national center for health statistics good enough for you? they state that "every day, 12 american children ages 19 and under are killed in gun accidents, suicides, and homicides. many more are wounded". or how about the national pediatric trauma registry? they say "gunshot wounds to children ages 16 and under nearly doubled in major urban areas between 1987 and 1990." do you also doubt the american academy of pediatrics charles??? they state that "gunshot wounds among children in urban areas increased 300% from 1986 to 1988." charles, i hope you don't need to be convinced that youth are increasingly victims of gun injuries and that they have easy access to guns. if you don't realize this fact, (i don't care if you go by cdc or fbi data, or if you go into the homes, schools, and streets where these kids are and take a poll by yourself), i'm not going to bother to try to convince you. its obvious that you have ruled out any idea of discussing this issue in a sane fashion and that you are so focused on trying to make this a gun control and political discussion. i really don't want to do that. or the centers for disease control. they have firearm statistics? are firearms a disease? charles, it's obvious that you know nothing about the cdc. they don't just study cancer and heart disease. i've got news for you, interpersonal gun violence is an epidemic. in 1984, surgeon general c. everett koop declared that gun violence is as much a public health problem as cancer, heart disease, or auto accidents. that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths. in "the lives of youths" or in their schools? i know a number of youths who have firearms present "in their lives". is is quite appropriate to teach children to safely handle firearms (this is a "presence", right?). what are you trying to say? this innuendo reminds me of listening to bill clinton. who the f**k said anything about teaching children to safely handle firearm charles??? in the future, if you are going to post to t.p.g and jump into a previous discussion, please read the entire posting, not just 1 sentence that you decide to respond to. what the hell are you saying here??? you're wasting time and space trying to make a political and gun control issue out of a discussion that isn't. the cphv reports that 135,000 youth bring guns to school daily and that 400,000 bring guns to school at least once a year. i wouldn't trust their statistics without *independent* verification. the cdc estimates that 1 out 0f 25 high school students carried a gun to school at least once in 1990. based on cphv statistics? based on ucr?... based on what? the cdc also says that 1.2 million elementary-aged, latch-key children (kids who come home from school to an empty house), have access to guns in their home. therefore?... what is the purpose of this claim? charles buddy, i'm getting really tired of this. do you live on the planet mars??? as a physicist, i realize that you probably don't come into contact with many youth, but i really think you need to make a trip to your local urban high school and discover the joy of guns in schools. in addition spend a few minutes talking to these kids. ask them if they have ever heard gunshots in their neighborhoods, whether they know anyone who has been shot, whether they know anyone who has a gun, whether they have ever held a gun, and whether they themselves have ever been shot. believe me charles, that will be your *independent* verification. rodney w. thomas r1328@vmcms.csuohio.edu urban child research center cleveland state university cleveland,oh. 44115 
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 they did, they used cs that would not harm children. i really hope you're being sarcastic here, but i've seen so many stupid things said in complete seriousness that it's hard to tell without a smiley. do you actually believe there's a cs gas that can discriminate based on the age of the target? yes, the gas used was a mild concentration or formulation compared to the 'heavy duty' stuff. you know this for a fact? how do you know? or, are you just making things up for flamebait? the fbi has claimed from the begining that it wasn't standard use tear gas. how do you know it was? or do you just assume it was for flamebait? 
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 a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. i know that as a canadian, i don't have much to stand on... but, i think that the right to keep and bear arms is very important to maintaining a free society. the america is still the most enviable place to live on this earth (by anyone with their head on straight) and will stay that way only if more people stand-up publicly for what they believe!! remember, that if you stand for nothing... you'll fall for anything... including "well-meaning" socialists, they did in canada. 
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 i'm not sure were this thread has been before i popped in, but i've never thought of waiting periods as having anything to do with training or competence. i just can't imagin any valid reason for having a gun that can't wait a few days. you can't think of any valid reason to own a gun that can't wait? either you have a very limited imagination or a strange definition of the word "valid". here are a few reasons you might want a gun *right now*: you're a korean greengrocer in la and a riot has just started in a nearby neighborhood. you've received a death threat. your so has just broken your arm and you fear for your life if you stay with him and he's said he'll kill you if you leave him. a psychopath is breaking into people's houses in your neighborhood and robbing and killing people inside. a violent mugger is operating on the route you have to take to get to your night job. there are lots of dangers you might be in that won't wait for the waiting period for you to purchase a gun. pro-choice anti-roe - e. elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare. 
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 hb 1776 is for concealed carry in texas. it provides for licensing citizens to carry concealed firearms if they pass an instruction course (30 hours, if i remember correctly), pay a $140 fee (good for 4 years), and meet several other criteria related to personal character, etc. while i don't agree with all of the criteria, i feel it's high time that pro-gun types fight the same way hci et al. do -- by getting incremental changes in the law. daryl biberdorf n5gjm d-biberdorf@tamu.edu + sola gratia + sola fide + sola scriptura 
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 |> hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that jews celebrating on |> these days thje passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the |> nile. |> so if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write |> that the zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the nile ". the question is by going east or west from the misisipi. on either choice you would loose palestine or broklyn, n.y. i thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi ! |> by the way : |> what are the borders the islamic world dreams about ?? |> islamic readers, i am waiting to your honest answer. let's say : " let's establish the islamic state first" or "let's free our occupied lands first". and then we can dream about expansion, mr. gideon 
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 how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin? that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks. joel, i took out sct, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo's last name lest he include afu in his daily i dunno, warren. just the other day i heard a rumor that "serdar argic" (aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot) is not really a turk at all, but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion. 
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 how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin? that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks. joel, i took out sct, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo's last name lest he include afu in his daily i dunno, warren. just the other day i heard a rumor that "serdar argic" (aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot) is not really a turk at all, but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion. dis it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" is? if not, why not? i assu\me his/her/its identity is not shielded by policies similar to those in place at "anonymous" services. very simpl 
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 david davidian says: armenians have nothing to lose! they lack food, fuel, and warmth. if you fascists in turkey want to show your teeth, good for you! turkey has everything to lose! you can yell and scream like barking dogs along the davidian, who are fascists? armenians in azerbaijan are killing azeri people, invading azeri soil and they are not fascists, because they lack food ha? strange explanation. there is no excuse for this situation. herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra, kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca, "ac kaldilar da, yiyecekleri yok amcasi, bu seferlik affedin" de. yurrruuu, yuru de plaka numarani alalim...... 
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 sure it joined you by ballot in 1918! and i suppose that northern bukovina (where i was born), which has always had that's why zoologists refer to you as a 'fecal shield'. colonel semen m. budienny, a subsequent soviet military fame, said about the armenian genocide of 2.5 million defenseless turkish and kurdish women, children and elderly people during his visit to anatolia in june 1919 that "the armenians had become troublemakers, their hinchakist and dashnakist parties were opportunist, serving as lackeys of whatever power happened to be ascendent." in september 16, 1920, major general w. thwaites, director of military intelligence, wrote to lord hardinge, under-secretary of state for foreign affairs: "...it is useless to pretend that the armenians are satisfactory allies, or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim."[1] [1] f.o. 331/3411/158288. in the special collection at stanford hoover library, donated by georgia cutler, the letter dated nov. 1, 1943 states that "prescot hall wrote a large volume to prove that armenians were not and never could be desirable citizens, that they would always be unscrupulous merchants." source: documents: volume i (1919). "document no: 50," archive no: 4/3621, cabin no: 162, drawer no: 5, file no: 2905, section no: 433, contents no: 6, 6-1, 6-2. (to 36th division command - militia commander ismail hakki) "for eight days, armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. day and night they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations, after which nothing further is heard of them. (informed from statements of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around taskilise ruins). women and children are being openly murdered or are being gathered in the church square and similar places. most inhuman and barbarous acts have been committed against moslems for eight days." "document no: 52," archive no: 4/3671, cabin no: 163, drawer no: 1, file no: 2907, section no: 440, contents no: 6-6, 6-7. (to: 1st caucasian army corps command, 2nd caucasian army corps command, communications zone inspectorate - commander 3rd army general) "as almost all russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the population loyal to us in regions behind the russian positions are facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties and abuses by armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate the moslem population in regions under their occupation. i have regularly informed the russian command of these atrocities and cruelties and i have gained the impression that the above authority seems to be failing in restoring order." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 what are the borders the islamic world dreams about ?? the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts. if jews had the same dream, i would not feel threatened a bit. there certainly are muslims who *do not* believe that their dream of a global islamic community should be achieved through force. there are, however, others (and, they are often far more visible/vocal than the former) who *do* accept the establishment of global islam through force. i would *not* feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing "islamicization" through peaceful means, nor by jews advocating the same approach. those advocating force as a means of expanding their side's power are certainly a threat. to palestinians, israel is doing just that; maintaining its dominance of those *outside* its own "group". if i am told that "i am not one of you" but you then impose your control on me, damn right you are a threat. if i am a member of a non-muslim minority *inside* the islamic world and *actively did not* accept my "minority" status, i *would also certainly* see islam's domination as having been acheived, and maintained, through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities within their ranks. islamic readers, i am waiting to your honest answer. i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions: i am not a zionist, but do feel that *both* jewish and palestinian nationalist desires need, at this juncture, to be accepted in some way. 1)why do jews who don't even believe in god (as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine, just because god gave you the land? for the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous for islam to be spread by force upon those who do not want that. 2)why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel? [i refer to the "most" you also refer to] because they are scared, and feel very threatened, as well feeling that this area *is* to some degree part of their belief/religion/heritage/ identity/etc. i too strongly object to those that justify israeli "rule" of those who do not want that. the "occupied territories" are not israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate. 
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 1)why do jews who don't even believe in god (as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine, just because god gave you the land? g-d has nothing to do with it. some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords. present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory, and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians, syrians, jordanians, et al. 2)why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel? first, i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs. since, however, i agree with those who claim the west bank, i think i can answer your question thusly: the west bank was what is called the spoils of war. hussein ordered the arab legion to attack israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the israelis promptly kicked his butt. the territory is therefore forefeit. retaining possession of all of the west bank is not desirable, but it beats national suicide for the israelis. put another way, one could ask why it is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel-aviv belongs to them and the future state of palestine. as long as this state of affairs continues, it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea. giving up the entire west bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint. in addition, there is the small matter of jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the west bank. the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil. even leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude, like yossi sarid, aren't going to propose giving up jerusalem. if he did, he'd get run out of town on a rail. chag sameach! 
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 alah, alah, kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo-tourkos ... likkleserfelc ekmek salam. toukoutakli, ranadas sarma. geke re? ti, eipate yok? plaka numarani alalim kanw re... source: a. alper gazigiray, "osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari," gozen kitabevi, istanbul, 1982. pp. 267-268. "van'dan sonra ilk isyan sebinkarahisar'da basladi. 1915 senesi 5 haziran da, sivasli murat [hamparsum boyaciyan - sa] denilen bir caninin emri altinda 500 kadar cete sebinkarahisari basti. burasi o zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi. erzurum bolgesinde rus ordusu ile savasan osmanli ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi. ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde turk ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve rus ordularinin harekati kolaylasacakti. sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese verildi. her rastlanan turk iskence ile olduruldu. mus'da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu. sason daglari ermeni eskiyalariyla dolu idi. bu isyanlari, ordunun arkasini vurmak ve rus ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin ermenilerin pasa dedikleri rupen idare ediyordu. bundan baska, rus ordularinin rus - turk sinirindan gecerek turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada rus ordusu icinde bulunan ermeni gonullu alaylariyla rus ordularinin isgali altina giren ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk, turk koylerine hucum ederek bu koyleri yakip yikmislar ve turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve iskence ile oldurmulerdir. p. 285. "bu suretle sehirde 23 gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti, bu sure sonunda van, ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu. buradan kacabilen turklerin, ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri haberler tuyler urpertici idi. cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus, kadinlarin irzina gecmis, turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde topladiktan sonra buralarini genelev haline getirmislerdir. o zaman van'da 1500 kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska turk kalmamis, bunlari da oradaki amerikalilar korumustur. sehir bastan basa harab olmus, carsi kamilen yanmisti." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 david davidian says: turkish officials came to armenia last september and armenia given assurances the armenian nuclear plant would stay shut. turkey promised armenia electricity, and in the middle of december 1992, turkey said sorry we were only joking. armenia froze this past winter -- 30,000 armenians lost their lives. turkey claims it allowed "humanitarian" aid to enter armenia through its border with turkey. what did turkey do, it replaced the high quality grain from europe with "crap" from turkey, mixed in dirt, and let that garbage through to armenia -- 30,000 armenians lost their lives! this is the latest from upi foreign ministry spokesman ferhat ataman told journalists turkey was closing its air space to all flights to and from armenia and would prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across turkish territory. historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations. even the nazis did this much. it seems as though from now on turkey will publicly pronounce themselves 'hypocrites' should they choose to continue their condemnation of the serbians. neophytos iacovou university of minnesota email: iacovou@cs.umn.edu computer science department ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou 
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 [after a small refresh hasan got on the track again.] |> |> i get the impression hasan realized he goofed and is now |> |> trying to drop the thread. let him. it might save some |> |> miniscule portion of his sorry face. |> not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself |> from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains |> such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles |> written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company! |> ah, but in my followup on the subject (which you, by the way, never bothered |> responding to..) there was no name-calling. hence the assumption. |> do you feel more up to it now, so that we might have an answer? |> or, to refresh your memory, does the human right issue in the area |> apply to palestinians only? also, do you claim there is such a thing as |> forfeiting a human right? if that's possible, then explain to the rest of |> us how there can exist any such thing? |> use your logic, and convince us! this is your golden chance! |> jonas flygare, well , ok. let's see what master of wisdom, mr. jonas flygare, wrote that can be wisdomely responded to : are you calling names, or giving me a title? if the first, read your paragraph above, if not i accept the title, in order to let you get into the um, well, debate again. master of wisdom writes in <1993mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>: |> [hasan] |> |> [flax] |> |> |> [hasan] |> |> |> in case you didnot know, palestineans were there for 18 months. |> |> |> and they are coming back |> |> |> when you agree to give palestineans their human-rights. |> |> |> afterall, human rights arenot negotiable. |> |> |> correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_ |> |> |> a 'human right'?? or does it only apply to palestinians? |> |> no. it is everybody's right. however, when a killer kills, then he is giving |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right. |> so then it's all right for israel to kill the people who kill israelis? |> the old 'eye for an eye' thinking? funny, i thought modern legal systems |> were made to counter exactly that. so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, master of wsidom, if you insist on giving me names/titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly. /sigh. when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate, and hence all their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories. no, i am _not_ neglecting that, i'm merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later. also, you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights. what do you expect me to tell you, master of wisdom, when i did explain my point in the post, that you "responded to". the point is that since israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the occupied palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society. if a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all? |> |> in conjugtion with the above, when a group of people occupies others |> |> territories and rule them by force, then this group would be -willingly or |> |> unwillingly- deprived from some of its rights. |> such as the right to live? that's nice. the swedish government is a group |> of people that rule me by force. does that give me the right to kill |> them? do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here ? worthy or not, i was just applying your logic to a related problem. am i to assume you admit it wouldn't hold? |> |> what kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue? |> |> the answer is to be found in a certain system such as international law, |> |> us law, israeli law ,... |> and now it's very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a |> point.. excuse me while i throw up. ok, master of wisdom is throwing up. you people stay away from the screen while he is doing it ! oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone? i'll let you in on a secret... it's not for real.. take my word for it. |> |> it seems that the us law -represented by us state dept in this case- |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories. |> |> anyway, as for hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system. |> and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem? the question is not which system would solve the me problem. why ? because any system can solve it. the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here (all palestine). i asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for all people involved. i assumed that was obvious, but i won't repeat that mistake. now that i have straightened that out, i'm eagerly awaiting your joseph weitz (administrator responsible for jewish colonization) said it best when writing in his diary in 1940: "between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.... we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country. the only solution is a palestine, at least western palestine (west of the jordan river) without arabs.... and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left.... only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren. there is no other way out." davar, 29 september, 1967 ("courtesy" of marc afifi) just a question: if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information i'd be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to a _private_ paper even older? i'm not going to get into the question if he wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics. guess what..? those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region. ever. it's those who are willing to make a tabula rasa and start over, and willing to give in order to get something back. "we" and "our" either refers to zionists or jews (i donot know which). well, i can give you an answer, you master of wisdom, i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem ! i think that is fair enough . no, that is _not_ an answer, since i asked for a system that could solve the problem. you said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction. guess where that takes your logic? to never-never land. "the greatest problem of zionism is arab children". -rabbi shoham. oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer, when i try giving your posts any credit. jonas flygare, + wherever you go, there you are v{ktargatan 32 f:621 + 754 22 uppsala, sweden + 
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 armenian killings in kelbadjar ( azerbadjan ) continues, armenian attackers continues it's attack against kelbadjar, azerbadjan. 45,000 people have been evacuated from kelbadjar, 15,000 are still in the fascist x-soviet armenian government also hired mercenaries to slaughter azeris this time. the armenian government says that the forces aren't from armenia but from nagorno-karabag. heavy weapons and ordertaking from france is the result.....turkey's president, turgut ozal,says: "if un doesn't act then we may have to show our teeth before the situation becomes worse.". finally...about time... serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 mr. furr does it again, very sensible. he says how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin? and lo and behold, he invokes the mr.666 of the net himself, our beloved serdar, a program designed to seek out the words terrx and ghex in the same sentence and gets the automated reply.... must you rave so? fascist x-soviet armenian government engaged in disgusting cowardly massacres of azeri women and children. i am really sorry if that fact bothers you. our "mutlu"? oboy, this is exciting. first you discuss your literature tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of entertainment. have you considered just turning on the tv and leaving those of us who aren't brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people by the x-soviet armenian government? etc. etc. etc........ more ridicule, i take it? still not addressing the original points made. joel, don't do this to me mate! i'm only a poor plant scientist, i don't know how to make 'kill' files. my 'k' key works overtime as it is just to then what seems to be the problem? did you ever read newspaper at all? "painful search .." the gruesome extent of february's killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan - about 600 men, women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four-year war over nagorny karabakh. the figure is drawn from azeri investigators, hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press. diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates. the 25 february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four-year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh, the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday. the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre, but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians. the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku. later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief-stricken azerbaijan's wild and contradictory allegations of up to 2,000 the state prosecuter, aydin rasulov, the cheif investigator of a 15-man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the "hojali disaster", said his figure of 600 people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings. a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali. an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may - 479 dead people named and more than 200 bodies reported unidentified. this figure of nearly 700 dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova, the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence. francois zen ruffinen, head of delegation of the international red cross in baku, said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of 580 bodies received at his mosque from hojali, most of them civilians. "we did not count the bodies. but the figure seems reasonable. it is no fantasy," mr zen ruffinen said. "we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead." mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre. "don't get worked up. it will take several months to get a final figure," the 43-year-old lawyer said at his small office. mr rasulov knows about these things. it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that 131 people were killed and 714 wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january 1990. those nationalists, the popular front, finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali, an azeri town which lies about 70 miles from the border with armenia, fell to the armenians. officially, 184 people have so far been certified as dead, being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic's forensic department. "this is just a small percentage of the dead," said rafiq youssifov, the republic's chief forensic scientist. "they were the only bodies brought to us. remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within 24 hours." of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14 years old. gunshots killed 151 people, shrapnel killed 20 and axes or blunt instruments killed 10. exposure in the highland snows killed the last three. thirty-three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation, including ears, noses, breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out, according to professor youssifov's report. those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed, mr rasulov said. files from mr rasulov's investigative commission are still disorganised - lists of 44 azeri militiamen are dead here, six policemen there, and in handwriting of a mosque attendant, the names of 111 corpses brought to be washed in just one day. the most heartbreaking account from 850 witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov, an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on 27 "there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly: 470-500 in hojali, 650-700 people by the stream and the road and 85-100 visible around nakhchivanik village," mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter "people waved up to us for help. we saw three dead children and one two-year-old alive by one dead woman. the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return." there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces. the independent, london, 12/6/'92 heroes who fought on amid the bodies aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe-bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers, torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago, writes hugh pope. "i'm still wearing the same clothes, i don't have any others," the 51-year-old carpenter said, beginning his account of the hojali disaster. "i was wounded in five places, but i am lucky to be alive." mr sadikov and his wife were short of food, without electricity for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12 days. they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the 2,000 to 3,000 people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh. "at about 11pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before, eight or nine kinds of weapons, artillery, heavy machine-guns, the lot," mr sadikov said. soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack. some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town, down a hill, through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side. to escape, the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about 15 miles away. they thought they were going to make it, until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak. "none of my group was hurt up to then ... then we were spotted by a car on the road, and the armenian outposts started opening fire," mr sadikov said. azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians, but their efforts were mostly in vain. mr sadikov said only 10 people from his group of 80 made it through, including his wife and militiaman son. seven of his immediate relations died, including his 67-year-old elder brother. "i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat," he said, pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes. "we have never got any of the bodies back." the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire. one hero of the evacuation, alif hajief, was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group's crossing, mr sadikov said. another hero, elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali, said he and several others spent the whole day of 26 february in the bushy hillside, surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay. as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam, there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee. "the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack. some people just kept going," mr sadikov said. "i had to get to the hospital for treatment. i was in a bad way. they even found a bullet in my sock." victims of war: an azeri woman mourns her son, killed in the hojali massacre in february (left). nurses struggle in primitive conditions (centre) to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage. grief-stricken relatives in the town of agdam (right) weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims. calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within 24 photographs: liu heung / ap frederique lengaigne / reuter the independent, london, 12/6/'92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 i dunno, warren. just the other day i heard a rumor that "serdar argic" (aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot) is not really a turk at all, but in fact is an armenian 1/64th or 63/64th? i must congratulate your analytical and excellent reportage about diana. from the writings of tye biographers you quoted, i can perceive, maybe chauvinistically, the remnants of her armenian genes. even though she is only 1/64th armenian, she seems to have many of the strong characteristics of armenian women. her armenian ancestry is traced to eliza kewark (an armenian from india), who married the scottish merchant thedore forbes. from the union was born kathleen scott forbes, who married james crombie from aberdeen. they had a daughter jane, who married david littlejohn. their daughter ruth married william gill. ruth silvia gill, the grandmother of lady diana, married lord fermoy, and their daughter, frances ruth burke roache, married the eight earl of spencer, who was the father of lady diana. it is noteworthy that eliza kewark was also referred to as mrs. forbesian (a characteristic armenian surname ending). an armenian-scottish gene mix is dynamite. levon k. topuzian assistant professor northwestern university skoie, illinois. time, december 21, 1992 'letters' who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion. you have set up straw horses and knocked them down. i'm not impressed. anyway, the armenians tore apart the ottoman empire's eastern provinces, massacred 2.5 million defenseless turkish women, children and elderly people, burned thousands of turkish and kurdish villages and exterminated the entire turkish population of the armenian dictatorship between 1914-1920. such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today in armenia brings a depth and verification to the turkish genocide that is hard to match. a hundred years ago armenians again thought they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. several armenian terror groups like asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent turks and their families in the united states and europe. it seems that they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-soviet armenia source: stanford j. shaw, on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in 1914, "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey (volume ii: reform, revolution & republic: the rise of modern turkey, 1808-1975)." (london, cambridge university press 1977). pp. 315-316. "in april 1915 dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van, whose 33,789 armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire...leaving erivan on april 28, 1915, armenian volunteers reached van on may 14 and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake." "knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions, armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims. armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state, the ottoman empire, and to assist instead other invading russian armies. their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories. armenian political leaders, army officers, and common soldiers began deserting in droves." "with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of world war i, the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman's enemy increased drastically. ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks, armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations, who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 <disclaimer: if there is anybody on usenet dumb enough to interpret this posting as a serious and meaningful one, i want to assure this entity that it was but a joke> still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower? people will think you're just some looney howling in the wires. now any comment? source: documents: volume i (1919). "document no: 76," archive no: 1/2, cabin no: 109, drawer no: 3, file no: 346, section no: 427(1385), contents no: 3, 52-53. (to lt. colonel seyfi, general headquarters, second section, istanbul - dr. stephan eshnanie) 'neues wiener tagblatt' - vienna, 'pester lloyd' 'local anzliger' - berlin, 'algemeen handelsblat' - amsterdam, 'vakit' - istanbul. "i have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of russians and armenians from turkish territories through armenia. although two months have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of armenian gangs, i have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the armenians at almost every step. all the villages from trabzon to erzincan and from erzincan to erzurum are destroyed. corpses of turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere. according to accounts by those who were able to save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful events begun when the russian forces evacuated the places which were then taken over by armenian gangs. the russians usually treated the people well, but the people feared the intervention of the armenians. once these places had been taken over by the armenians, however, the massacres begun. they clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the armenian and kurdish land from the turks and thus, solve the nationality problem. today i had the opportunity to meet austrian and german soldiers who had escaped from russian prison camps and come from kars and alexander paul (gumru-leninakan)...russian officers tried to save the turks and there were clashes between russian officers and armenian gangs. i am now in erzurum, and what i see is terrible. almost the whole city is destroyed. the smell of the corpses still fills the air. although there are speculations that armenian gangs murdered austrian and german prisoners as well, i could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is proof of murdering of turkish prisoners of war." dr. stephan eshnanie serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 remember and do not forget sisha fuchs never. i don't know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned and advised by toynbee. if one ever does you will easily see the magnitude of the crime of genocide committed by the armenians, by massacring an alien population under their rule which constituted about 40% of their total population and they did it only within a time period of a little over two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population. now i would like to ask you: is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to this one? and again i would like to ask you: whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands of turks of the republic of armenia who were exterminated as a "final solution" to turco-tartar problems in armenia is similar or not to the martyrdom of six million jews in europe as a final solution to jewish problems? serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 ok. i donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. however, i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who have the right for it. sounds like wishful guessing. as for the arabian and palestinean voices that are against the current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions that israel would not give an inch of the west bank (and most probably the same for golan heights) back to the arabs. an 18 months of "negotiations" in madrid, and washington proved these predictions. now many will jump on me saying why are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations. i would say why would the arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to loose ? 'so-called' ? what do you mean ? how would you see the peace process? so you say palestineans do not negociate because of 'well-founded' predictions ? how do you know that they are 'well founded' if you do not test them at the table ? 18 months did not prove anything, but it's always the other side at fault, right ? why ? i do not know why, but if, let's say, the palestineans (some of them) want all israel, and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis. or, maybe they (palestinenans) are not yet ready for statehood ? or, maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership, too many fractions aso ? i am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one, but any of these could make arabs stall the negotiations. arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is only for legitimizing the current status-quo and for opening the doors of the arab markets for israeli trade and "oranges". that is simply unacceptable and would be revoked. i like california oranges. and the feelings may get sharper at the table. 
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 historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations. even the nazis did this much. is the world community really so powerless? where are all those human rights advocates? where are all the decent people? are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing. news reporters make their living by providing stories, and there is so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with what is happening in armenia (a country that few know of), and risk detracting people's interest from what is happening in serbia. then you must be living in an alternate universe. where were they? an appeal to mankind during the last three years azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the soviet union. all humanitarian, constitutional human rights guaranteed by the un charter, universal declaration of human rights, helsinki agreements, human problems international forums, documents signed by the soviet union - all of them are violated. the ussr's president, government bodies do not defend azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace. the 140,000 strong army of armenian terrorists with moscow's tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against azerbaijan. as a result, a part of azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded. some 200,000 azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the armenian ssr, their historical homeland. together with them 64,000 russians and 22,000 kurds have also been driven out, a part of them now settled in azerbaijan. some 40,000 turkish-meskhetians, lezghins and representatives of other caucasian nationalities who escaped from the central asia where the president and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations. one of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the armenian extremists' destruction of the karabakh scientific experimental base of the institute of genetics and selection of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr. we beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance, for the honour and dignity of 7 million azerbaijanis are violated, its territory, culture and history are trampled, its people are shot. there is persistent negative image of azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over the whole world by soviet mass media, armenian lobby in the ussr and the united states. one of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance while the truth is that all these shootings and recent events stem from the territorial claims of armenia on it is a well documented fact that before the conflict there were no frictions between armenians and azerbaijanis on the issue of karabakh. hundreds and thousands armenians placidly and calmly lived and worked in azerbaijan land, had their representatives in all government bodies of the azerbaijan we are for a united, indivisible, sovereign azerbaijan, we are for a common caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one of the founding fathers of the azerbaijan democratic republic - muhammed emin rasulzade. but all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the soviet leadership in favour of the armenian expansionists encouraged by moscow and intended to create a new '1,000 year reich' - the 'great armenia' - by annexing the neighboring lands. the world public opinion shed tears to save the whales, suffers for penguins dying out in the antarctic continent. but what about the lives of seven million human beings? if these people are muslims, does it mean that they are less valuable? can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other all people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding. this is not the first appeal of azerbaijan to the world public opinion. our previous appeals were unheard. however, we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the russian and armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins. the committee for people's help to karabakh (of the) academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr everyone knows this, even the turks know this, you know this. give us a time period when the world is currently boring, and what is happening in armenia would make front page headlines. think i'm lying? take a look at what happened in somalia. when did the press report it to the world? but perhaps turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the caucasus in the name of peace and democracy. the armenians are christians, the azerbaijanis are moslems, and islam is a religion especially unloved by the democrat-westernizers. besides, at the root of this conflict lie the territorial claims on azerbaijan, a consequence of which were the blood and suffering of innocent azeri people, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and gross violations of human rights. recently armenians attacked the azeri town of khojaly and massacred thousands of azeris. the paris-based 'association for democracy and human rights in azerbaijan' puts the number of khojali victims at 3,145. some of the dead were scalped and mutilated. this whole thing has now gone entirely too far. want to know what will bring the story in armenia to the front page? if the russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks then your human rights advocates will show up defending the armenians. of course we can also be sure that the russians won't show up with any tanks, not with the problems they are having at home. they already did. the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians 78 years ago in the ottoman empire is being reenacted again - this time in azerbaijan. there are remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. report taken from the new york times, tuesday, march 3, 1992 massacre by armenians being reported agdam,azerbaijan,march 2 (reuters) - fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by armenian militants in nagorno-karabakh, a predominantly armenian enclave of azerbaijan. the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed 1,000 people in the azerbaijani populated town of khojaly last week and massacred men, women and children fleeing the carnage across snow-covered mountain passes. but dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre. scalping reported azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their heads blown off. they said shooting by armenians has prevented them from retrieving more bodies. "women and children have been scalped," said assad faradshev, an aide to nagorno-karabakh's azerbaijani governor. "when we began to pick up bodies, they began firing at us." the azerbaijani militia chief in agdam, rashid mamedov, said: "the bodies are lying there like flocks of sheep. even the fascists did nothing like this." truckloads of bodies near agdam on the outskirts of nagorno-karabakh, a reuters photographer, frederique lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with azerbaijani "in the first one i counted 35, and it looked as though there were as many in the second," she said. "some had their head cut off, and many had been burned. they were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 |> in article <c50wjj.j4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ece.concordia.ca |> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in god (as is the case with many |> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in palestine more |> > than the inhabitants of palestine, just because god gave you the land? |> g-d has nothing to do with it. some of the land was in fact given to the |> jews by the united nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from arab |> absentee landlords. present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase |> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the united nations in the |> partition of the palestine mandate territory, and as the result of |> defensive wars fought against the egyptians, syrians, jordanians, et al. |> > 2)why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of |> > the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel? |> first, i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the |> idea that the west bank is theirs. since, however, i agree with those who |> claim the west bank, i think i can answer your question thusly: the west |> bank was what is called the spoils of war. hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny. anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel. now, how do you explain the attack on syria in 1967, syria didnot enter the war with israel till the 4th day . by the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind 1967 by israel was only to capture sinai, egypt ! |> to attack israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the israelis |> promptly kicked his butt. the territory is therefore forefeit. retaining |> possession of all of the west bank is not desirable, but it beats |> national suicide for the israelis. put another way, one could ask why it |> is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel-aviv belongs to them |> and the future state of palestine. as long as this state of affairs |> continues, it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they |> can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea. giving up the entire west |> bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint. in addition, there is |> the small matter of jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the west |> bank. the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil. even |> leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude, like yossi sarid, aren't |> going to propose giving up jerusalem. if he did, he'd get run out of town |> on a rail. |> chag sameach! |> jeff 
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 i too strongly object to those that justify israeli "rule" of those who do not want that. the "occupied territories" are not israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate. they certainly are until the arabs make peace. only the most leftist/arabist lunatics call upon israel to withdraw now. most moderates realize that an israeli withdrawl will be based on the camp david/242/338/madrid formulas which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions. 
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 |> in article <c50wjj.j4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ece.concordia.ca |> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in god (as is the case with many |> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in palestine more |> > than the inhabitants of palestine, just because god gave you the land? |> g-d has nothing to do with it. some of the land was in fact given to the |> jews by the united nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from arab |> absentee landlords. present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase |> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the united nations in the |> partition of the palestine mandate territory, and as the result of |> defensive wars fought against the egyptians, syrians, jordanians, et al. |> > 2)why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of |> > the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel? |> first, i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the |> idea that the west bank is theirs. since, however, i agree with those who |> claim the west bank, i think i can answer your question thusly: the west |> bank was what is called the spoils of war. hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny. anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel. now, how do you explain the attack on syria in 1967, syria didnot enter the war with israel till the 4th day . syria had been bombing israeli settlements from the golan and sending terrorist squads into israel for years. do you need me to provide specifics? i can. why don't you give it up, hasan? i'm really starting to get tired of your empty lies. you can defend your position and ideology with documented facts and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post. take an example from someone like brendan mckay, with whom i don't agree, but who uses logic and documentation to argue his position. why must you insist on constantly spouting baseless lies? you may piss some people off, but that's about it. you won't prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion. your arguments just prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is. all my love, 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75406">
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 [ stuff deleted ] |> are you calling names, or giving me a title? if the first, read your |> paragraph above, if not i accept the title, in order to let you get into the |> um, well, debate again. hasan replies: i didnot know that "master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too, unless you consider yourself deserve-less ! unless you are referring to someone else, you have in fact given me a name i did not ask for, hence the term 'name calling'. |> so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, master of wsidom, i replied: |> if you insist on giving me names/titles i did not ask for you could at |> least spell them correctly. /sigh. hasan gloats: that was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey ) hell-bent on retarding into childhood, no? |>when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate, |>and hence all their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on |>the ground of occupied territories. no, i am _not_ neglecting that, i'm merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here. no, i really do try to spell correctly, and i apologize if i did confuse you. i will try not to repeat that. |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. we can get back to the |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. also, you have |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights. first, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically revokes the right of for its military men". clearly, occupation is an undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. ok, let me re-phrase the question. i have repeatedly asked you if the israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, and if so, why. from your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) i inferred that you thought so. together with the above statement i then assumed that the reason was the actions of the state of israel. re: your statement of occupation: i'd like you to define the term, so i don't have to repeat this 'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary. secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing palestinean human rights. i'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. please rephrase it. |> if a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all? because not all states are like israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant. oh, ok. so how about the human rights of the syrians, iraqis and others? does the name of hama sound familiar? or how about the kurds in iraq and how about the same in sweden (ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the russians in the baltic states or the moslem in the old ussr and yugoslavia? do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you? |> |> and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem? |> the question is not which system would solve the me problem. why ? because |> any system can solve it. |> the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here (all palestine). |> i asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for |> all people involved. i assumed that was obvious, but i won't repeat that |> mistake. now that i have straightened that out, i'm eagerly awaiting your |> reply. so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights. (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph). no, i'm agreeing that to just kick all the palestinians out of israel proper would probably lead to disaster for both parties. if that's what you refer to as the 'israeli solution' then so be it. |> joseph weitz (administrator responsible for jewish colonization) |> said it best when writing in his diary in 1940: |> "between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both |> peoples together in this country.... we shall not achieve our goal |> of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country. |> the only solution is a palestine, at least western palestine (west of |> the jordan river) without arabs.... and there is no other way than |> to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to |> transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be |> left.... only after this transfer will the country be able to |> absorb the millions of our own brethren. there is no other way out." |> davar, 29 september, 1967 |> ("courtesy" of marc afifi) |> just a question: if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to |> getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas |> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information i'd |> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to |> a _private_ paper even older? i'm not going to get into the question if he |> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have |> their share of fanatics. guess what..? those are not the people that will |> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff] exactly, you are right. i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment>is full with men like joseph weitz. oh? have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? fascinating. what do you _do_ for a living? |> "we" and "our" either refers to zionists or jews (i donot know which). |> well, i can give you an answer, you master of wisdom, i will not suggest the |> imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem ! |> i think that is fair enough . |> no, that is _not_ an answer, since i asked for a system that could solve |> the problem. you said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction. above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would resolve it justly. an unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no? you said the following: for all a it holds that a have property b. there exists an a such that property b does not hold. thus, either or both statements must be false. |> guess where that takes your logic? to never-never land. you are proving yourself as a " ". first you understood what i meant, but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. too bad for you, the master of wisdom. i was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning. since you claim to be logical i felt it best to point this out before you started using your statements to prove a point or so. am i then to assume you are not logical? |> "the greatest problem of zionism is arab children". |> -rabbi shoham. |> oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are |> a real bummer, when i try giving your posts any credit. why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , if you were a zionists. if you believe in zionist codes and acts, well i feel sorry for you, because the same rabbi shoham had said "yes, zionism is racism". if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes, then drop zionism. if you are not zionist, why are you bothered then. you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts. any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all individuals by a statement of an individual. if you use the same methods that you credit 'zionists' with, then where does that place you? oh, by the way, i'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'. i will and am condemning acts i find vile and inhuman, but i'll try as long as i can not to assume those acts are by a whole people. by zionist above do you mean the state of israel, the government of israel, the leaders of israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in general? if you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible instead. how would you feel if we started condemning you personally based on the bombings in egypt? jonas flygare, + wherever you go, there you are v{ktargatan 32 f:621 + 754 22 uppsala, sweden + 
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 |> >what are the borders the islamic world dreams about ?? |> the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking |> the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts. |> if jews had the same dream, i would not feel threatened a bit. contrary to what the "protocols of zion crowd" might suggest, judaism does not have any such goals. |> >islamic readers, i am waiting to your honest answer. |> i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions: |> 1)why do jews who don't even believe in god (as is the case with many |> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in palestine more |> than the inhabitants of palestine, just because god gave you the land? the question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer. i am going to provide one from my own current perspective, not a historical one. currently, as a non-observant jew/israeli/american, my own feeling is that jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in palestine or israel, than the palestinians or israelis (both arab and jew) do. with regard to jewish israelis, they should have the same rights in israel as do all other israelis. |> 2)why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of |> the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel? who are them? if by them you mean the non-religious jews, i think you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their supporters are religious. the other part of the problem is, to my knowledge, not that the palestinians don't want to be a part of israel, as much as they would accept (for the most part) being full citizens of israel, with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded israeli citizens. what they object to is the current limbo in which they find shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75417">
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 do it. depew has shown himself to be unrepentant (though embarrassed) and still possessed of the same fucked-up hubris-laden self-righteousness that the theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal/nazi armenians of the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle. now, try dealing with the rest of what i wrote. what is more, the activities of the armenian government seem to have been efforts aimed at eradicating a race (the turks) or aimed at carrying out a one-sided feud, instead of being a struggle for liberation. from the outset, the efforts of the armenian revolutionaries within the ottoman borders took the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder, cruelty and genocide, so that no other interpretation of them is possible. armenian activities started during the reign of abdulhamid ii as individual acts of terror, and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks. the element of brute force in these activities increased steadily, culminating in mass rebellions and widespread fighting during the first world war. furthermore, when the ottoman army withdrew from eastern anatolia after the 1915 sarikamis defeat, armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area. although the russians occupied eastern anatolia as an enemy, nevertheless they were constrained by the rules of war. however, when they returned to their country in 1917 after the revolution, armenian revolutionaries were unchecked in this area for about a year until the ottoman forces returned to erzurum in 1918. during this period, armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on the local people which is recorded in historical documents.[1] for example, let us look at a report dated 21 march 1918 which the commander of the third army submitted when he entered erzurum and erzincan: "they were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down by armenians, even the trees were cut down, and they are like a building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word." as for the people who had been living in erzurum and erzincan: "those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated. when the russian army withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to. including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum. all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled, everything that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them in a destitute situation. at the present time, the people are subsisting on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area."[2] foreign observers who witnessed the events, including russian officers who did not desert their lines, submitted detailed reports proving the genocide to ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war. what is most important is that they stated in their reports 'the massacres did not happen by chance but were planned.'[3] at the end of the war, the german author dr. weiss, his austrian colleague dr. stein and his turkish colleague mr. ahmet vefik visited trabzon, kars, erzurum and batum between april 17th and may 20th 1918 to record the cruelties. their writings not only show the scope of armenian activities, but also reveal their goal and true nature.[4] [1] (the ottoman state, the ministry of war), "islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat," (istanbul, 1918). the french version: "documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane," (istanbul, 1919). in the latin script: h. k. turkozu, ed., "osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi," (ankara, 1982). in addition: z. basar, ed., "ermenilerden gorduklerimiz," (ankara, 1974) and, edited by the same author, "ermeniler hakkinda makaleler - derlemeler," (ankara, 1978). "askeri tarih belgeleri ...," vol. 32, 83 (december 1983), document numbered 1881. [2] "askeri tarih belgeleri ....," vol. 31, 81 (december 1982), document numbered 1869. [3] from twerdo-khlebof's report dated 29 april 1918; quoted in ermeniler ..., vol. 2, p. 275. [4] a. r. (altinay), "iki komite - iki kital," (istanbul, 1919), and, "kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler" (istanbul, 1919). serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 there was no such letter in the chronicle on that date, or at any other time. is this a figment of your imagination? here is another one: source: "mitteilungsblatt, berlin, december 1939, nr. 2 and 5-6" yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of armenian-nazi a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch-armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. the magazine was first published in berlin in 1938 during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of armenian-nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. this magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. in nazi germany, armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices. the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered "aryan" and what befell them. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75873">
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 we really should try to be as understanding as we can for brad, because it appears killing is all he knows. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75874">
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 in his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget what a moron he is, brad hernlem has asked why israel rarely abides by un security council resolutions. perhaps the list below might answer the question. incident security council response 1. hindu-moslem clash in india, over 2,000 killed, 1990 none 2. gassing to death of over 8,000 kurds by none iraqi air force, 1988-89 3. saudi security forces slaughter none 400 pilgrims in mecca, 1987 4. killing by algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988 none 5. intrafada (arabs killing arabs) -- over 300 killed none 6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama, syria, 1982 7. killing of 5,000 palestinians by jordanian troops, none thousands expelled, sept., 1970 8. 87 moslems killed in egypt, 1981 none 9. 77 killed in egyption bread riots, 1977 none 10. 30 border and rocket attacks against israel by none the plo in 1989 alone 11. munich, 1972: 11 israeli athletes slaughtered none 12. ma'alot, 1974: children killed in plo attack none 13. israel coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded none 14. syria kills 23,000 palestinians, 1976 none 15. lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975 none 16. yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986 none 17. sudan: tens of thousands of black slaves, none civil war toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees 18. tienenman square massacre 1989 none 19. rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989 none 20. pan am 103 disaster carried out by the p.l.o none 21. northern ireland none 22. cambodia none 23. soviet occupation of afghanistan none 24. american riots at attica, watts, newark, kent state none 25. 1981: israel destroys iraqi reractor, israel condemned 26. 1990: israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned against arab mob, 18 anti-jewish rioters killed 27. syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender, 1990 it appears that brad hernlem and the united nations security council have something in common. they both seem unfettered by the demands of acting on principle. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75884">
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 [it looks like yigal has been busy...] rtw 04/14 2155 jewish group sued for passing official information by adrian croft san francisco, april 14, reuter - nineteen people, including the son of former israeli defence minister moshe arens, sued the anti-defamation league (adl) on wednesday, accusing the jewish group of disclosing confidential official information about them. richard hirschhaut, director of the san francisco branch of the adl, art dealer roy bullock and former policeman tom gerard were also named as defendants in the suit, filed in san francisco county superior court. the 19 accuse the adl of b'nai b'rith, a group dedicated to fighting anti-semitism, and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on them, including data from state and federal agencies. the suit alleges they disclosed the information to others, including the governments of israel and south africa, in what it alleges was a "a massive spying operation." the action is a class-action suit. it was filed on behalf of about 12,000 anti-apartheid activists or opponents of israeli policies about whom the plaintiffs believe the adl, bullock and gerard gathered information. representatives of the adl in san francisco were not immediately available for comment on wednesday. the civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that gerard, a former inspector in the san francisco police intelligence unit, passed confidential police files on california political activists to a spy ring. the fbi and san francisco police are investigating the adl, bullock and gerard over the affair and last week searched the adl's offices in san francisco and los angeles. the suit alleges invasion of privacy under the civil code of california, which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources. it seeks exemplary damages of at least $2,500 per person as well as other unspecified damages. lawyer pete mccloskey, a former congresmen who is representing the plaintiffs, said the 19 plaintiffs included arab-americans and jews -- and his wife helen, who also had information gathered about her. one of the plaintiffs is yigal arens, a research scientist at the university of southern california who is a son of the former israeli defence arens told the san francisco examiner he had seen a file the adl kept on him in the 1980s, presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of palestinians and his position on the israeli-occupied territories. according to court documents released last week, bullock and gerard both kept information on thousands of california political activists. in the documents, a police investigator said he believed the adl paid bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and bullock received confidential information from the authorities. no criminal charges have yet been filed in the case. the adl, bullock and gerard have all denied any wrongdoing. reuter ac kg cm apn 04/14 2202 adl lawsuit copyright, 1993. the associated press. all rights reserved. by catalina ortiz associated press writer san francisco (ap) -- arab-americans and critics of israel sued the anti-defamation league on wednesday, saying it invaded their privacy by illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network. the adl, a national group dedicated to fighting anti-semitism, intended to use the data to discredit them because of their political views, according to the class-action lawsuit filed in san francisco superior court. "none of us has been guilty of racism or nazism or anti-semitism or hate crimes, or any of the other `isms' that the adl claims to protect against. none of us is violent or criminal in any way," said carol el-shaieb, an education consultant who develops programs on arab culture. the 19 plaintiffs include yigal arens, son of former israel defense minister moshe arens. the younger arens, a research scientist at the university of southern california, said the adl kept a file on him in the 1980s presumably because he has criticized israel's treatment of palestinians. "the adl believes that anyone who is an arab american ... or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti-semite," arens said. the adl has denied any wrongdoing, but couldn't comment on the lawsuit because it hasn't reviewed it, said a spokesman at the adl's new york the fbi and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that the adl spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups, including white supremacist and anti-semitic organizations, arab-americans, greenpeace, the national association for the advancement of colored people and san francisco public television station kqed. some information allegedly came from confidential police and government records, according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit. no charges have been filed in the criminal investigation. the lawsuit accuses the adl of violating california's privacy law, which forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information "not otherwise public" from state or federal records. the lawsuit claims the adl disclosed the information to "persons and entities" who had no compelling need to receive it. it didn't elaborate. defendants include richard hirschhaut, director of the adl's office in san francisco. he did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment. other defendants are san francisco art dealer roy bullock, an alleged adl informant over the past four decades, and former police officer tom gerard. gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed information on to bullock. gerard, who has retired from the police force, has moved to the philippines. bullock's lawyer, richard breakstone, said he could not comment on the lawsuit because he had not yet studied it. upwe 04/14 1956 adl sued for allegedly spying on u.s. residents san francisco (upi) -- a group of california residents filed suit wednesday charging the anti-defamation league of b'nai brith with violating their privacy by spying on them for the israeli and south african governments. the class-action suit, filed in san francisco superior court, charges the adl and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information on outspoken opponents of israeli policies towards the occupied territories and south africa's apartheid policy. the adl refused to comment on the suit. the suit also took aim at two top local adl officials and retired san francicso police officer tom gerard, claiming they violated privacy guarantees in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws. according to the suit, gerard helped the adl obtain access to confidential files in law enforcement and government computers. information from these files were passed to the foreign governments, the suit charges. "the whole concept of an organized collection of information based on political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is absolutely repugnant," said former rep. pete mccloskey, who is representing the the adl's information-gathering network was revealed publicly last week when the san francisco district attorney's office released documents indicating the group had spied on 12,000 people and 500 political and ethnic groups for more than 30 years. "my understanding is that they (the adl) consider all activity that is in some sense opposed to israel or israeli action to be part of their responsbility to investigate," said arens, a research scientist at the university of southern "the adl believes that anyone who is arab american...or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti-semite." the fbi and the district attorney's office have been investigating the operation for four months. the 19 plaintiffs in the case include arens, the son of former israeli defense minister moshe arens. in a press release, the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them psychologically and economically and accused the adl of trying to interfere with their freedom of speech. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75885">
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 i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon--his imagination. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75887">
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 imho, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs/isreal war context. the real question is who/what started the war. does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land ? huh? a war was started when several armies invaded israel, vowing to drive the jews into the sea. most jews wanted to live in peace, and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship. it depends entirely on how you define 'war'. the actual fighting largely predates the arab invasions - after all deir yassin happened in midapril well before the arab invasion. as i have said elsewhere lt col lorch has said that hagana forces were fighting well before the arabs invaded as in months before. as for jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely arguable. i think it is easy enough to show that the labour party leadership had no such intention at all. as for the arabs who 'stayed' don't you mean those who were not expelled? even some of those who did 'stay' were not granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway. joseph askew how do you define war? do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war, or is that only when the jews do them? january, 1948: arab liberation army attacks kfar szold 1000 men attack kfar etzion, 14 miles south of jerusalem, after cutting off the supply lines to it. attacks on yehiam (western galilee) and kibbutz tirat tzvi. by mid-march, the jewish settlements in the negev had been cut off from land links with the rest of the jewish population. the etzion group of villiages, near hebron, had been cut off, while 42 members of a convoy trying to supply yehiam were slaughtered, cutting off the villiage. jerusalem was under seige, being cut off from its supply route from tel aviv (the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side of that road to this day in memoriam). by this time, 1200 jews had been killed. of course, this isn't war, since it's only the arabs attacking. just like last week when the fatah launched katyusha rockets against northern israel. where does uprising end and war begin? will it still be 'intifadah' when the plo brings in tanks? joseph askew, gauche and proud in the autumn stillness, see the pleiades, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. disclaimer? sue, see if i care north of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, actually, i rather like brenda beyond the pale, the river murmurs on. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75891">
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 brad hernlem writes... congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance! with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel's occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life. brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) to which mark ira kaufman responds: your delight in the death of human beings says more about you than anything that i could say. were you one of the millions of americans cheering the slaughter of iraqi civilians by us forces in 1991? your comment could also apply to all of them. (by the way, i do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being, including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department) some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes. my opinions should be yours. my employer has no opinions. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75893">
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 i just thought that i would make it clear, in case you are not familiar with my past postings on this subject; i do not condone attacks on civilians. hezbollah and other lebanese resistance fighters are skilled at precision bombing of sla and israeli targets. i find such methods to be far more restrained and responsible than the israeli method of shelling and bombing villages with the hope that a hezbollah member will be killed along with the civilians murdered. i do not consider the killing of combatants to be murder. soldiers are trained to die for their country. three idf soldiers did their duty the other day. these men need not have died if their government had kept them on israeli soil. is there any israeli a civilian, in your opinion ? now, i do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages. but you claim these are villages with civilians, and iraelis claim they are camps filled with terrorists. you claim that israelis shell the villages with the 'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. if they kill one, fine, if not, too bad, civilians die, right ? i am not so sure. as somebody wrote, saddam hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting manner. and he also claimed 'civilians murdered'. let me ask you, isn't there at least a slight chance that you (not only, and the question is very general, no insult) are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in southern lebanon ? now, a lot people who post here consider 'israeli soil' kind of mediteranean sea. how do you define israeli soil ? from what you say, if you do not clearly recognize the state of israel, you condone killing israelis anywhere. dorin, are you aware that the idf sent helicopters and gun-boats up the coast of lebanon the other day and rocketted a palestinian refugee north of beirut. perhaps i should ask you "what qualifies a person for murder?": i do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe. if it was to kill civilians (i doubt), i certainly do not condone it. if civilians were killed, i do not condone it. that they are palestinian? that they are children and may grow up to be "terrorists"? that they are female and may give birth to little terrorists? brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) mr. hernlem, it was you, not me, who was showing a huge satisfaction for 3 israelis (human beings by most standards, don't know about your standards) killed. if you ask me those questions, i will have no problem answering (not with a question, as you did) : no, nobody is qualified candidate for murder, nothing justifies murder. i have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make similar statements, maybe after eliminating all israelis, jews, ? am i wrong ? now tell me, did you also condone saddam's scuds on israeli 'soldiers' in, let's say, tel aviv ? from what i understand, a lot of palestineans cheered. what does it show? it does not qualify for freedom fighting to me ? but again, i may be wrong, and the jewish controlled media distorted the information, and i am just an ignorant victim of the media, like most of us. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75894">
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 what the hell do you know about israeli policy? what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals? has this 'policy of intimidation' been published somewhere? for your information, the actions taken by arabs, specifically the plo, were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of 1982. my brain is full of shit? at least i don't look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them! ... deleted i am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not be necessary. israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs. the way i see it, israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons: 1) arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or 2) israeli government is arrogant and none comprising. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75896">
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 well, panos, mr. tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective. when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides. what were you doing on anatolia after the ww1 anyway? do you think it was your right to be there? there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until 1923. someone had to protect them. if not us who?? i am not saying that conflicts started with that. it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering. it is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise. i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey. i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better. compromise on what, the invasion of cyprus, the involment of turkey in greek politics, the refusal of turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial waters as stated by international law, the properties of the greeks of konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the greek lake,sorry, aegean. there are some things on which there can not be a compromise. the greeks i mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated people. they have never met me but they know! i am bad person because i am from turkey. politics is not my business, and it is not the business of most of the turks. when it comes to individuals why the hatred? any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a "bad" person. it is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you "bad". people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are. you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price. so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece. after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek-turkish encounters during your schooling. take it easy! tankut atan tankut@iastate.edu "achtung, baby!" you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks. just talk to greeks, arabs, slavs, kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation. they will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction. you do not learn about turks from history books, you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75899">
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 i am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not be necessary. israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs. the way i see it, israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:. 1) arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or 2) israeli government is arrogant and none comprising. it's not relevant whether i agree with you or not, there is some reasonable thought in what you say here an i appreciate your point. however, i would make 2 remarks: - you forgot about hate, and this is not only at government level. - it's not only 'arab' governments. now, about taugh talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? do you listen to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch the channel ? i would rather be 'intimidated' by some dummy 'talking tough' then by a bomb ready to blow under my seat in b747. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75902">
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 well,i tried not to get involved in this never ending talk,but,man,i really got hot about this bullshit. : in-reply-to: hm@cs.brown.edu's message : > |> q: how many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it : > |> take to kill a 5 year old native child? : > |> a: four : > |> two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face, : > |> and one writes up a false report. making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything (not mentioning peace or agreement). i also know several tens of jokes about arabs (palestinians) but i do not post them to usenet (anyway,not to this newsgroup), since i don't think i will achieve any target but making other parts furious,and this is not my target. if this is your target...well...that tells a lot about you. : >can nick steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ? did you really think he is talking about something realistic? : >harry. : you must be kidding ,this is not a single incident : now. this has become a daily life practice in gazza : if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers. yeah,well,sometimes,when cowards put their children and wives in the front line, so their enemy cannot do anything,well,maybe in those cases,you have no better thing to do (to save your life) than shooting. and if parents want their children alive,i think it would be better that before they get out to throw stones/molotov botlles,or when they come to kill soliders,to keep their children in the houses. : if you are objecting the number of occupying israeli : soldiers (terrorists) or the way they do it , then look in the dictionary at the word "terrorism"! it says: (nu) the use of threats of violence,and violence esp for political purposes. it sounds more like your guys... : i caan assure you that they do worse than that. just as yeah? well,i guess you were in there,and you know it all... : example 11 children were killed this month of ramadhan : two of them by military vehicules. an other similar : incident by vehicule was the one of 25 feb (4 ramadhan) : where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger where from do you know that it was "on purpose"? personally,i didn't hear about this case,although i don't deny it.but how can anybody,besides the person itself,can say it was "on purpose"? : car where the victims were a 5 year girl safa sail : bisharat : and saamud riyad a 2 weeks old babygirl.( + the 23 : oldd raajij rouhy) yeah,sure.the truck driver looked in the car with his zionist equipment of detecting palestinian children,and then he thought to himself:hey there is a 5 year and 2 weeks girls in the car.why won't i make an accident and kill the "enemy"? maximum i will die too in the crash...but what do i care?... : hakim. actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon, or when the itifada began, that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone please give full details if they can remember). this is one of the few well,it was about 3 years ago ,in the intifada (the fact that you can't remember the time prooves how much do you care about it). i do not think that what the soliders did was correct. but i will not agree that they "were breaking their arms".i saw that film,and,unlike in the usa,it was broadcasted entirely not long ago (in a talk show) and at the end the "arm-broken" guys got up and walked and used their arms very good. they guy who did it was interviewed and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take his orders,and spitted in his face. what ammount of truth exist in this statement i cannot tell you,because i wasn't there. but the guy who did it was in prison,if it makes you any good. occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army's role in the mid-east. no,it didn't. the israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle east.it is still the only human army(as much as an army can be human).to any american who will claim the opposite,i can only remember the cnn broadcasting of the american solider who beat a somalian boy. it was very cruel to see.but i won't say because of this that the american army is cruel. so there is proof for you! it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes. some kind of proof! "obvious"? where from? if you say it is behind the scenes, how do you know about it? i just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say,without knowing anything about what he says,and living a life far away from the place he talks about. _____ __livian__ ______ ___ __segal__ __ __ __ __ __ ***\ /*** | | |__ | /_ \ \ | | | | \ | |---o---| | | / | \ | | | | \ | \ /*\ / \___ / | \ | | | \ | | \___ / | / | vm/cms: jhsegall@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il unix: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il 
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 in revision of history <9304131827@zuma.uucp> as posted by turkish government agents under the guise of sera@zuma.uucp (serdar argic) lie in response to article <1993apr13.033213.4148@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org and scribed: [(*] orhan gunduz is blown up. gunduz receives an ultimatum: either [(*] he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". he [(*] refuses. "responsibility" is claimed by jcag and sdpa. [(*] may 4, 1982 - cambridge, massachusetts [(*] orhan gunduz, the turkish honorary consul in boston, would not bow [(*] to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of [(*] "honorary consul". now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood. [(*] president reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. an eye- [(*] witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down. he [(*] survives... but falls silent. one of the most revolting "triumphs" in [(*] the senseless, mindless history of armenian terrorism. such a murder [(*] brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer [(*] within the armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing [(*] in self-satisfaction. [(*] were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak? [(*] december 17, 1980 - sydney [(*] two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard, engin [(*] sever. jcag and sdpa claim responsibility. mr. turkish governmental agent: prove that the sdpa even existed in 1980 or 1982! go ahead, provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and show us the letters sdpa! the turkish government is good at excising text from their references, let's see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable newspaper accounts! the turkish government can't support any of their anti-armenian claims as typified in the above scribed garbage! that government continues to make false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and covering up the turkish genocide of the armenians. just like a dog barking at a moving bus, it barks, jumps, yells, until the bus stops, at which point it just walks away! such will be with this posting! turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges, and when brought to answer, they are silent, like the dog after the bus stops! the turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra- nationalism existing in turkey today onto usenet and convince people via its revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the the resulting inability to address armenian and greek refutations of turkey`s re-write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist, and worse, claim -- as part of the record -- i took responsibility for the murder of 2 people! what a pack of raging fools, blinded by anti-armenian fascism. it's too bad the socialization policies of the republic of turkey requires it to always find non-turks to de-humanize! such will be their downfall! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 q: how many nick steel's does it take to twist any truth around? a: only one, and thank god there's only one. absolutely not true! there are lots of them! _____ __livian__ ______ ___ __segal__ __ __ __ __ __ ***\ /*** | | |__ | /_ \ \ | | | | \ | |---o---| | | / | \ | | | | \ | \ /*\ / \___ / | \ | | | \ | | \___ / | / | vm/cms: jhsegall@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il unix: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il 
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 in a previous article, zbib@bnr.ca (sam zbib) says: imho, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs/isreal war context. the real question is who/what started the war. does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land ? where the hell do you get off calling it "arab land"? jews have been living there for a long time. jews didn't just start arriving in 1900, they've been living there for thousands of years, except for periods when they were expelled but they always returned home. | internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca fidonet: 1:163/109.18 | | mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca | | <<my opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> | 
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 check menahem begin dairies (published book) you'll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen, though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are greatly minimized. as per request of hasan: from _the revolt_, by menachem begin, dell publishing, ny, 1977: [pp. 225-227] "apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin. at that village, whose name was publicized throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. we had four killed and nearly forty wounded. the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. the fighting was thus very severe. yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began. one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women, children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill. by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle. a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. a few did not leave their stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. the fire of the enemy was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony. our men were compelled to fight for every house; to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable "the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. i am convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle. but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin [1] would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2]. "in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah, whom mr. ben gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' the 'wise ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal superciliousness. he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of 'dissidents.' throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about 'jewish attrocities.' "the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. in the result it helped us. panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel. kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting. beit-iksa was also evacuated. these two places overlooked the main road; and their fall, together with the capture of kastel by the haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem. in the rest of the country, too, the arabs began to flee in terror, even before they clashed with jewish forces. not what happened at dir yassin, but what was invented about dir yassin, helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa." [1] (a footnote from _the revolt_, pp.226-7.) "to counteract the loss of dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village. certain jewish officials, fearing the irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun. an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth. out of evil, however, good came. this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops, who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers. the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel. the `dir yassin massacre' lie is still propagated by jew-haters all over the world." [2] in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews. 
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 this post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. if this is true, i condemn it. if it's a fabrication, then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth. 
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 this post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. if this is true, i condemn it. if it's a fabrication, then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth. 
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 04/16/93 1045 armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor... let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it : armenia is getting itchy. 
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 in a previous article, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (nick steel) says: q: how many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it take to kill a 5 year old native child? a: four two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face, and one writes up a false report. this newsgroup is for intelligent discussion. i want you to either smarten up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this | internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca fidonet: 1:163/109.18 | | mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca | | <<my opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> | 
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 /* written 4:34 pm apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */ /* ---------- "from israeli press. madness." ---------- */ from the israeli press. paper: zman tel aviv (tel aviv's time). friday local tel aviv's paper, affiliated with maariv. journalist: guy ehrlich (cherry) units, which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories. excerpts from the article: "a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. it is that everyone who serves in the cherry, after a time goes in one way or another insane". gee, i'd better tell this to the mental health branch of the israeli army medical corps ! where would we be without you, davidson ? a man who said this, who will here be called danny (his full name is known to the editors) served in the cherry. after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy. his pal, who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry, and is now about to depart for a round-the-world tour. they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service. but in their souls, one can notice something completely different....it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them. and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn't be easy either. yet after they began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking. the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness. (...) a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team, in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry. we called such soldiers h.i. 'hit by the intifada'. under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common phenomenon in the cherry. i sent him to a psychiatrist. but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane ? on fridays, when i come home, my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. the keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that i can go there. i they dare talk to me before, or whenever i don't want them to talk to me, i just grab a chair and smash it instantly. i know it is my nerve: smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. only there i become normal.(...) (...) another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother. it was an omelette of sorts. she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me. i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind. i told her how i shot an arab, and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it. she began to laugh hysterically. i wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh straight in my face instead ! so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails. he shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as they deserved. one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire, with the effect that the arab was burning all over, just beautifully. i was delighted to see it. my pal fired three bullets, two at the arab with the molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. it hit him straight in his ass. we both felt that we'd pulled off next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look. i reached the spot first. and then that arab, blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. i yelled: 'shut up' and he dared talk back to me in hebrew! so i just laughed straight in his face. i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes. then i told him: 'all right, wait a moment'. i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab. i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that. i keep telling all this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight into my face. this infuriated me. i got very angry, because i felt i was becoming mad. so i stopped eating, seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over her head. only then she stopped laughing. at first she didn't know what to say. (...) but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently. i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field. a gull appeared right in the middle of the field. my friend shot it at once. then we noticed four deer standing high up on the four (4) deer in tel aviv ?? well, this is probably as accurate as the rest of this fantasy. hill above us. my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it. we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. we shot down two deer more and went to take a look. when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother. we carefully inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit. we were just delighted by that sight. we had hit'em so good ! then we decided to kill the young deer too, so as spare it further suffering. i approached, took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance. when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in. but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us. this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness. standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like beasts of prey. we couldn't explain what had happened to us. we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we felt the whole day very badly. (...) we always go back to places we carried out assignments in. this is why we can see them. when you see a guy you disabled, may be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. you feel godlike of sorts." (...) both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting. dudu is not willing to work in any security-linked occupation. danny feels the exact opposite. 'why shouldn't i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well ? why shouldn't i earn $3.000 for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa ? this kind of job suits me perfectly. i have no human emotions any more. if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there." transl. by israel shahak. yisrael shahak the crackpot chemist ? figures. i often see him in the rechavia (jerusalem) post office. a really sad figure. actually, i feel sorry for him. he was in a concentration camp during the holocaust and it must have affected him deeply. backon@vms.huji.ac.il 
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 /* written 4:41 pm apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */ /* ---------- "from israeli press. torture." ---------- */ from the israeli press. newspaper: ma'ariv date: 18. december 1992 author: avi raz farwell la, donchin e. the truth will out: interrogative polygraphy ("lie detection") with event-related brain potentials. psychophysiology 1991;28:531-547 "the research reported here was supported in part by contract number 87f350800 with the central intelligence agency. preliminary reports were presented at the 1986, 1988, and 1989 meetings of the society for psychophysiological research". donchin happens to be an israeli. do you really think that israel needs something as primitive as torture when it has this as well as something brought over by a russian mathematician from the lenningrad military hospital in 1979 (factor-analysis of multiple unit activity of the brain) ??? surely you jest. when israel sics trained dogs on arab prisoners the way it's commonly done on prison farms in mississippi or alabama, *then* you have a right to protest against torture. when israeli security personnel beat arab prisoners the way chicago police do, *then* you have a right to complain. since it does not practice physical torture in any way, kindly refrain from using this word. backon@vms.huji.ac.il title of article: moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated, beaten and tortured, omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator, a shabak agent 'captain louis', chatting on the phone with his wife. "at those moments", omar said, "i felt that he was like a humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat me and say, 'you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself' and i understood that he was not really a human being". in late october 1992, after 38 days in detention at tulkarm prison, omar jaber was released without charges. "among the jews, as among the arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said after his release, "but there, in tulkarm, in the interrogations rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being". although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("i sat at home for ten days. my hands shook from nerves"), one may consider omar jaber lucky: he got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns. in contrast, hassan bader al-zbeidi, for example, was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after 33 days in the shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. he doesn't speak or react. mustafa barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation, left it one day later - dead. "we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators", noted dr. niv gordon, director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights. (...) the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf, a 20 year old student. in fact, he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment. (...follow description of tortures....) omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "i do not want to talk about it", he finally said, quietly. some time later, embarrased and ashamed, he spoke: "sometimes he beats you and beats you until you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. even the hands of another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room, and the last interrogator says:" now you are kissing my hand, and later if i want, you will kiss my ass." these things take place in an israeli army detention installation, located within the military government compound in tulkarm (west bank). but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. in early march the idf allowed representatives of b'tselem, the israeli information center for human rights in the territories, to visit tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation wing. "the interrogation wing is shabak property, being solely under shabak responsibility. all interrogations are performed by it", said lieutnant sharon sho'an, the commander of the installation, according to the internal report written by b'tselem member, yuval ginbar, following the visit. major david pe'er, governing commander of the prison system in the central command, was quoted in the report: "there is an ethical problem here - no one can enter the interrogation wing". transl. by i. shahak 
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 source: "men are like that" by leonard ramsden hartill. the bobbs-merrill company, indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). (memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 19 (first paragraph) "the tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of ruins. it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi." p. 22 (second paragraph) "many of our men had served in the russian army, and were trained soldiers. we armenians were rich and possessed arms. tartars had never received military training. they were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives. shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village, the revolution in russia was suppressed." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 hmm. maybe i'll go rent midnight express tonight. i haven't seen that scene in awhile; i have to savor the moment all over again. well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, the fascist x-soviet armenian government ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? as in the past in turkiye, and today in azerbaijan, for utopic and idiotic causes the armenians brought havoc to their neighbors. a short-sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods the armenians continue to become pernicious for the region. as usual, they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors. nagorno-karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to x-soviet armenia. besides the geographical aspect, nagorno-karabag is the historic homeland and the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary heritage of azerbaijan, which renders the armenian claims preposterous, even lunatic. and we still demand: 1. that the x-soviet armenian government, as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship, recognize the turkish genocide; 2. that x-soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people; 3. that the x-soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide; 4. that all world governments officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure. the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. now what would you do? source: 'the sunday times,' 1 march 1992 (a british weekly, written by thomas goltz, from agdam, azerbaijan.) armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families. the spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war-racked nagorno-karabakh. survivors reported that armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than 450 azeris, many of them women and children, who were fleeing an attack on their town. hundreds, possibly thousands, were missing and feared dead. the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children. they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees. the few survivors later described what happened:" that's when the real slaughter began," said azer hajiev, one of three soldiers to survive. "the armenians just shot and shot. and then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives." " they were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed rasia aslanova, who arrived in agdam with other women and children who made their way through armenian lines. she said her husband, kayun, and a son-in-law were killed in front of her. her daughter was still missing. one boy who arrived in agdam had an ear sliced off. the survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately, were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their wounds or the cold. by late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. of the seven corpses i saw awaiting burial, two were children and three were women, one shot through the chest at point blank range. agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. doctors said they had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds. nor were they safe in agdam. on friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and killing one person. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to speak out? i sure hope so. because, the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted. armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of urartus, massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the world all those left from the urartus, as the armenian civilization. all reliable western historians describe how armenians ruthlessly exterminated 2.5 million muslim women, children and elderly people of eastern anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the ottoman empire between 1914-1920. it is unfortunately a truth that armenians are known as collaborators of the nazis during world war ii and that, even today, criminal/nazi members of the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism triangle preach and instigate racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples. and x-soviet armenia continues its anti-turkish policy in the following ways: 1. x-soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political 2. x-soviet armenia, employing asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle and criminal/nazi armenians, attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide. 3. x-soviet armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people's vehement demands and protests. 4. using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-turkish supporters of the turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian. using all the aforementioned methods, the x-soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue. yet despite the efforts of the x-soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the armenians, the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 : while you brought up the separate question of israel's unjustified : policies and practices, i am still unclear about your reaction to : the practices and polocies reflected in the article above. : tim not a separate question mr. clock. it is deceiving to judge the resistance movement out of the context of the occupation. alaa zeineldine 
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 those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism, should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi, who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo. his latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo-nazism. you mean he talks about those jews, who, because of their self hatred, spend all their time attacking judaism, jews, and israel, using the most despicable of anti-semetic stereotypes? i don't think we need to coin a term like "jedeo-nazism" to refer to those jews who, in their endless desire to be accepted by the nazis, do their dirty work for them. we can just call them house jews, fools, or anti-semites from jewish families. i think "house jews," a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint. i think a few years free of their anti-semetic role models would do wonders for most of them. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 washington - a stark reminder of the holocaust--a speech by nazi ss leader heinrich himmler that refers to "the extermination of the jewish race"--went on display friday at the national archives. the documents, including handwritten notes by himmler, are among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the holocaust is a myth, archivists say. "the notes give them their authenticity," said robert wolfe, a supervisory archivist for captured german records. "he was supposed to destroy them. like a lot of bosses, he didn't obey his own rules." the documents, moved out of berlin to what himmler hoped would be a safe hiding place, were recovered by allied forces after world war ii from a salt mine near salzburg, austria. himmler spoke on oct.4, 1943, in posen, poland, to more than 100 german secret police generals. "i also want to talk to you, quite frankly, on a very grave matter. among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. i mean the clearing out of the jew, the extermination of the jewish race. this is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written." [emphasis mine--rje] the german word himmler uses that is translated as "extermination" is *ausrottung*. wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation" or "tearing up by the roots." in his handwritten notes, himmler used a euphemism, "judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the jews." but archives officials said "extermination" is the word he actually spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives. himmler, who oversaw adolf hitler's "final solution of the jewish question," committed suicide after he was arrested in 1945. the national archives exhibit, on display through may 16, is a preview of the opening of the united states holocaust memorial museum here on april 26. the national archives exhibit includes a page each of himmler's handwritten notes, a typed transcript from the speech and an offical translation made for the nuremberg war crimes trials. ---from p.a10 of saturday's l.a. times, 4/17/93 (associated press) (revans@math.ucsd.edu) 
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 i want this discussion to take place in english, because it is only after let's face it, if the words don't get into your noggin in the first place, there's no hope. now tell us, 'sdpa.org', a mouthpiece of the fascist x-soviet armenian government: what was your role in the murder of orhan gunduz and kemal arikan? how many more muslims will be slaughtered by 'sdpa.org' as publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities? "...that more people have to die..." sdpa <91@urartu.uucp> "yes, i stated this and stand by it." sdpa <255@urartu.uucp> january 28, 1982 - los angeles kemal arikan is slaughtered by two armenians while driving to work. march 22, 1982 - cambridge, massachusetts prelude to grisly murder. a gift and import shop belonging to orhan gunduz is blown up. gunduz receives an ultimatum: either he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". he refuses. "responsibility" is claimed by jcag and sdpa. may 4, 1982 - cambridge, massachusetts orhan gunduz, the turkish honorary consul in boston, would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of "honorary consul". now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood. president reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. an eye- witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down. he survives... but falls silent. one of the most revolting "triumphs" in the senseless, mindless history of armenian terrorism. such a murder brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing in self-satisfaction. were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak? december 17, 1980 - sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard, engin sever. jcag and sdpa claim responsibility. source: edward k. boghosian, "radical group hosts well-attended solidarity meeting," the armenian reporter, may 1, 1986, pp. 1 & 18. athens, greece - an array of representatives of greek political parties, including the ruling pasok party, and a host of political groups, both armenian and non-armenian, joined to voice their solidarity with the armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new armenian political force were voiced here on sunday, april 20 during the 2nd international meeting of solidarity with the armenian people. and judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these political groups and organizations, at least here in greece, the armenian cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world. the international meeting of solidarity was sponsored by the greek branch of the armenian popular movement, a comparatively new political force headed by younger generations of armenians, who openly profess their support of the armed struggle and of the armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia (asala). the organization has branches in various european and middle eastern countries and the united states although some of these branches appear to have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks of asala... voicing the support of pasok, the ruling party in greece, to the armenian people, was mr. charalambidi michalis, a member of the central committee of the party and the greek member of the permanent people's tribunal... explaining the goals and aspirations of the armenian popular movement was ara sarkisian. significant was the address delivered by mr. bassam abu-salim, on behalf of the popular front for the movement's continued support of the armenians' armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause, pledging that palestinian operated and run training camps would always be open to armenian youth who need training for such a struggle. later, mr. abu-salim, answering a question put to him by this writer, affirmed that his organization had always trained armenian members of asala and that this policy will continue. "the doors of our camps are always open to armenian freedom fighters," he affirmed. among the prominent greek politicians who attended the conference was the son of prime minister papandreou, who himself holds a post in the greek cabinet; two members of the cypriot parliament who had journeyed to athens for the specific purpose of attending the international gathering; representatives of the christian democratic party, edik center party, two wings of the communist party, representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations, a number of mayors of greek towns and cities; two greek members of the european parliament and other members of the greek parliament were also among those who participated in the international conference. also on hand to follow the deliberations was the ambassador of bulgaria in athens. more than significant was the large number of messages received by the organizers, including the following: palestinian national revolutionary movement, fatah; popular front for the liberation of palestine-general command; the central committee of the palestinian national liberation movement-fatah; the socialist progressive party of lebanon; arab socialist labor party; the kurdistan democratic union of iraq; and numerous other international groups, all noted for their radical stand in the israeli- palestinian conflict. support from arf-rm among messages received from armenian groups was the armenian revolutionary federation-revolutionary movement, the group that has claimed the abduction and assassination of key party leaders in lebanon accused of selling out to foreign interests and powers. the message clearly gave its support to the armenian popular movement pledging that the revolutionary movement will continue to "reveal the realities, no matter how bitter or tragic they are," to expose the anti-armenian activities of the leaders of the dashnag "bureau." the message was taken as an indication of the link, loose as it may be, that exists between the dissident dashnag group and the armenian popular movement, open supporters of asala and armed struggle. the armenian popular movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the greek capital, known as neos kosmos, where there is a large armenian presence. the headquarters are located in a two-story building, which appears to have turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of armenian youth, who prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves... now any comment? #from: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (vedat dogan) #subject: re:addressing..... #message-id: <1993apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu> (vedat dogan) wrote in response to article <1993mar31.141308.28476@urartu. [(*] source: "adventures in the near east, 1918-1922" by a. rawlinson, [(*] jonathan cape, 30 bedford square, london, 1934 (first published 1923) [(*] (287 pages). [dd] such a pile of garbage! first off, the above reference was first published [dd] in 1924 not 1923, and has 353 pages not 287! second, upon checking page [dd] 178, we are asked to believe: [vd] no, mr.davidian ... [vd] it was first published in 1923 (i have the book on my desk,now!) [vd] ******** [vd] and furthermore,the book i have does not have 353 pages either, as you [vd] claimed, mr.davidian..it has 377 pages..any question?.. well, it seems your book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the n>crap posted by mr. [(*]! o boy! please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not like them!!!...because they really exist...why? as i said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source given by serdar argic .. you couldn't reject it... in addition, the author's preface was written on january 15, 1923, but the book was published in 1924. here we go again.. in the book i have, both the front page and the author's preface give the same year: 1923 and 15 january, 1923, respectively! (anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, i can send you the copies of pages, please ask by sct) i really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924) what i care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in the given quotes by serdar argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your groundless accussations, etc. [dd] i can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim! [vd] what is new? i will post a .gif file, but i am not going go through the effort to show there is some turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time! i claim i have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication) and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in 1934(serdar argic's reference) has..you couldn't reject it..but, now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around.. let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication) first you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..you called serdar argic a liar!.. i said to you, no, mr.davidian, there exactly existed such a quote... (i even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.) and now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book" (without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..).. (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was first published in 1924(your claim).i am sure that you have some 'pretty well suited theories', as usual) and i am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and mr.davidian's lies...i also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use, which are: 949.6 r 198 and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215 it is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has 377! now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is not possible..." ..if not, what is your point? differences in the number of pages? mine was published in 1923..serdar argic's was in 1934.. no need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!! the issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year first published.. and you tried to hide the whole point.. the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by armenians..and those quotes given by serdar argic exist!! it was the issue, wasn't-it? you were not able to object it...does it bother you anyway? you name all these tortures and murders (by armenians) as a "crap".. people who think like you are among the main reasons why the world still has so many "craps" in the 1993. any question? serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 it is appropriate to add what himmler said other "inferior races" and "human animals" in his speech at posen and elsewhere: from the speech of reichsfuehrer-ss himmler, before ss major-generals, posen, october 4 1943 ["nazi conspiracy and aggression", vol. iv, p. 559] one basic principal must be the absolute rule for the ss man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. what happens to a russian, to a czech, does not interest me in the slightest. what the nations can offer in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them with us. whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. whether 10,000 russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for germany is finished. we shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. we germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. when someone comes to me and says, "i cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then i would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, german soldiers will die, and they are the sons of german mothers. they are our own blood". extract from himmler's address to party comrades, september 7 1940 ["trials of wa criminals", vol. iv, p. 1140] if any pole has any sexual dealing with a german woman, and by this i mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in front of his camp. then the others will not do it. besides, provisions will be made that a sufficient number of polish women and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this kind is out of the question. the women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp. this we must do, unless these one million poles and those hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict untold damage on the german blood. philosophizing is of no avail in this case. it would be better if we did not have them at all - we all know that - but we need them. -danny keren. 
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 |> >04/16/93 1045 armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes |> ermenistan kasiniyor... |> let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets |> into it : armenia is getting itchy. |> esin. let me clearify mr. turkish; armenia is not getting "itchy". she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks. armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched. your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 1) cyprus was an independent country with turkish/greek inhabitants (not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims) 2) the name should be cyprus (in english) next time read and learn before you post. 
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 let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. the distinction is not trivial. murder happens to innocent people, not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed. it just so happened that these soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. that still doesn't mean we should cheer their deaths. policemen are also in the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed. should we be happy when they die? as i said before, the question is not whether or not you agree with the policies of israel. you may wish for the israelis to cease occupation, but don't rejoice in death. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast75951">
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 what the hell do you know about israeli policy? what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals? has this 'policy of intimidation' been published somewhere? for your information, the actions taken by arabs, specifically the plo, were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of 1982. my brain is full of shit? at least i don't look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them! ... deleted i am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not be necessary. israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs. how would you deal with arabs who always threaten to drive you into the sea or burn half your conuntry? would you talk nicely? would you say please? you wouldn't. the language of the middle east is power and force. sorry - that is the way it is now. if you aren't strong, you go down. israel has to talk and act tough. notice, israel talks and acts tough in battle, but is willing to talk peace. the way i see it, israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons: 1) arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or true - and they have brainwashed their people into thinking jews are some sort of monsters. arab non-recognition of israel and support of war and terror is also an important factor, wouldn't you say? 2) israeli government is arrogant and none comprising. what do you want israel to do? they are negotating? i'm sick of people calling for israel to withdraw from the territories now. that's not realistic, don't you realize that? a solution must be negotiated. it is on the table. have 
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 even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which i certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. you do. the 'lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not- only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? i do not know, just curious. i guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in beirut, right? what kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in munich 1972 ? you liked it, didn't you ? you posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent. let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. the distinction is not trivial. murder happens to innocent people, not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed. it just so happened that these soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. and resistance is different from terrorism. certainly the athletes in munich were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters). and some of us call them murderous bastards, but what's in a name. their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by resistance fighters. don't forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii. diplomacy has not worked with israel and the just a damn minute! what history books did you read? i seem to recall that there were a few british, canadian, american, and commonwealth soldiers in france about that time. perhaps you believe they were taking a vacation trip? lebanese people are tired of being occupied! they are now turning to the only option they see as viable. (don't forget that it worked in driving out the us) sure, the lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they can go back to killing each other off. some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes. my opinions should be yours. my employer has no opinions. 
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 |> one of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist" |> is that (at least in the u.s.a.) people speak of muslime |> fundamentalists ^^^^^^^muslim |> but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is. |> i wonder what an equal definition would be.. |> any takers.. well, i would go as far as saying that naturei karta are definitely jewish fundamentalists. other ultra-orthodox jewish groups might very well be, though i am hesitant of making such a broad generalization. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 |> don't forget that it was the french resistance to the |> nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the |> hostile occupiers in wwii. actually, this is incorrect. french resistance may have played some part in hindering the german war effort, however the crucial role was supplied on d-day. |> diplomacy has not worked with israel and the |> lebanese people are tired of being occupied! they are now turning to the |> only option they see as viable. (don't forget that it worked in driving |> out the us) interesting statement. especially when you consider that lebanon had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks, as well as israel. of course, one of the prime obstacles to israel's complete withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied to the area as well as the large presence of syrian forces which have not been asked to withdraw as well. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 i believe this is your most succinct post to date. since you have nothing to say, you say nothing! it's brilliant. did you think of this all by hey tough guy, read the topic. that's the message. get a brain. go to a real school. 
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 (i have nothing against greeks but my problem is with fanatics. i have met so many greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because i am turkish. from my experience, all my friends always were open to greeks) well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help. well, panos, mr. tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective. well, if you put things into historical perspective, the turks moved into an area, which was inhabited by greeks. this is how the history between the two nations started some centuries ago. since then, it has been a continuous battle between the two nations. from my perspective i can't see why i should say that greeks have been responsible for what has happened between the two nations. of course, it would not be reasonable to argue that the hostility should drag till we kick the turks out of this area. this isn't going to happen, so the best would be to improve the relations between the two countries. a golden oportunity exists with cyprus. if things can't work there, there isn't any possible way that could work between our nations. when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides. what were you doing on anatolia after the ww1 anyway? do you think it was your right to be there? i always avoid to discuss such things. i consider it a waist of my time. besides, as i said, i do not want to open a new flame. i am not saying that conflicts started with that. it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering. it is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise. i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey. i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better. i thought it was a smart move to receive more money from greek tourists. i bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from greece in turkey. each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this means to your economy. if you had kept the visa requirement, how many greeks would bother to visit turkey? the greeks i mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated people. they have never met me but they know! i am bad person because i am from turkey. politics is not my business, and it is not the business of most of the turks. when it comes to individuals why the hatred? come on. do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience. you err if you think you'd get a reasonable conclusion. tankut atan tankut@iastate.edu panos tamamidis 
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 [farid] in support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of [farid] azerbaijan and its independence from russian rule, the iranians which [farid] includes millions of azerbaijanis will have armenia retreat from the [farid] territory of azerbaijan. oh, they will? this should prove quite interesting! [farid] to count on iranian help to supposedly counter turkish influence will [farid] be a fatal error on the part of armenia as long as armenia in [farid] violation of international law has azerbaijani lands in occupation. armenia is not counting on iranian help. as far as violations of international laws, which international law gives azerbaijan the right to attack and depopulate the armenians in karabakh? [farid] if armenian aggression continues in the territory of azerbaijan, not [farid] only there won't be any aid from iran to armenia but also steps will [farid] be taken to have armenian army back in armenia. and who do you speak for? rafsanjani? [farid] the azerbaijanis of iran will be the guarantors of this policy. as for [farid] scaring iranians or turks from the russian power, experts on present [farid] and future military potentials of these people would not put much [farid] stock on the russain power as the sole power in the region for long!!! well, farid, your supposed experts are not expert! the russians have had non-stop influence in the caucasus since the treaty of turkmanchay in 1828. hmm... that makes it 1993-1828 = 165 years! oh, i see the azeris from iran are going to force out the armenians from karabakh! that will be a real good trick! [farid] iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the a bomb [farid] and a reliable delivery system (refer to recent news releases [farid] regarding the potential of iran). so the azeris from iran are going to force the armenians from karabakh by forcing the iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these armenians. [farid] the moral of the story is that, you don't go invading your neighbor's [farid] home (azerbaijan) and flash russia's guns when questioned about it. oh, but it's just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor! you are a damn fool, farid! [farid] (marshal shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding turkey in a [farid] few short years!). so you are going to drop an atomic bomb on russia as well. [farid] peaceful resolution of the armenian-azerbaijani conflict is the only [farid] way to go. armenia may soon find the fruits of aggression very bitter [farid] indeed. and the armenians will take your "peaceful" dropping of an atomic bomb as an example of iranian azeri benevolence! you sir are a poor example of an iranian azeri! ha! and to think i had a nice two day stay in tabriz back in 1978! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? do you listen to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch the channel ? i guess, i didn't make my point clear. in the case of israel government, it is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy. after all, not many people are intimidated just by talking. here how it goes: tough talks, followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and bragging about them. 
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 them. (by the way, i do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being, including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department) boy, you really are a stupid person. our justice department does not sentence people to death. that's up to state courts. again, get a brain. 
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 hello serdar, i would like very much to meet you. where are you located? let me know as soon as possible where we can meet. i am looking forward to meeting you. i don't know how to reach serdar, but you might be able to reach his sysadmin by email, phone, or snail-mail. here is information from rs.internic.net: ahmet cosar (anatolia-dom) 1530 s. 6th st. suite c705 minneapolis, minnesota, 55454 domain name: anatolia.org administrative contact, technical contact, zone contact: cosar, ahmet (ac234) cosar@anatolia.org 612-376-7873 and here is what "finger cosar@umn.edu" gets you: name: ahmet cosar-1 info: last registered 1993 winter qtr internet mailbox: cosa0001@student.tc.umn.edu other mailbox: profs: cosa0001@umntcml postal address: 1530 so 6th st apt c705 mn 55454 surname: cosar telephone: +1 612-376-7873 title: grad userid: cosa0001 x.400 mailbox: /g=ahmet/s=cosar-1/ou=mail/o=tc/prmd=umn.edu/admd= /c=us/ |__/__/_/ |warren@ / nysernet.org 
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 1- "nehzat-e aazaadee"'s member have many times been arrested and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison. 2- the above item confirms the long standing suspicion that the only reason this regime has not destroyed "nehzat-e aazaadee" completely is just to show off and brag about the "freedom of expression in iran" in its propaganda paper. get serious! if this regime had its way, there would be absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere, not even in sci. there really isnt, as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting. if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci, anon-poster would get used only occasionally (as in the good old days). 
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 in article <1993apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> imho, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs/isreal war context. the real question is who/what started the war. does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land ? huh? a war was started when several armies invaded israel, vowing to drive the jews into the sea. most jews wanted to live in peace, and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship. i am surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state, as a hostile action leading to war. it was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an exclusive state. if the state was to be exclusive, it would not have 400 000 arab citizens. and no, i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action. when someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce. it is not a hostile action leading to war. as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace, maybe. however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state, where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land. living in peace is meaningless unless it means living *with* someone else, as equal. for a native arab, this does not leave many options. oh, you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens? the arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews. those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority. if i were wrong, you'd have israel recall all the palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). after all, they are civilians. huh? the people who left, did so voluntarily. there is no reason for israel to let them in. israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid flowing). israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained. and how is granting citizenship a facade? tell me something, sam. what makes land "arab?" how shall i explain, its a contract between the man and the land. control isn't it. the ottomans ruled 400 years, and then left with barely a trace. the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west. it is partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil. i know that jews had previous history in the region, but none in recent memory. i'm talking everyday life not archeology. try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to establish what it is. also, jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years. there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel. there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly 1200-1500. jews were a majority in jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards. does that make the land jewish? adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 perhaps, though one can argue about whether or not the current palestinian delegation represents the plo (i would hope it does not, as the plo really doesn't have that kind of legitimacy). does it matter to you, naftaly, adam, and others, that arafat advises the delegation and that the plo, overall, supports it? does it also matter that arafat, on behalf of the plo, recognizes israel and its right to exist? further, does israel's new policy concerning direct negotiations with the plo hold any substance to the situation as a whole? no, he does not. arafat explicitly *denies* this claim. from a libyan televison interview with yasser arafat 7-19-1991 q: some people say that the palestinian revolution has many times changed its strategies and tactics, something which has left its imprint on the palestinian problem and on the palestinian liberation front. the [strategies and tactics] have not been clear. the question is, is the direction of the palestinian problem clear? the palestinian leadership has stopped, or at least this is what has been said in the media, this happened on the way to the dialogue with the united states, the plo recognized something called "israel"... a: no, no, no! we do not recognize the state of israel. we said "recognition" -- when a palestinian state is established. it will then decide if to recognize israel or not. when it is established, its parliament will convene and decide. policies which it can justify through occupation. because of this, you have the grassroot movements that reject israel's authority and disregard for human rights; and, if israel was serious about peace, it would abandon these policies. and replace them with what? if israel is to withdraw its control of any territory, there must be two prerequsites. one is that it leads to a reduction in deaths. the second is that it should not weaken israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks. leaving gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages arabs to think they can get what they want by killing jews. the only way israel should pull out of gaza is at the end of negotiations. these negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with security guarantees for both sides. until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again, they should not expect, or recieve more concessions. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 one of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist" is that (at least in the u.s.a.) people speak of muslime fundamentalists ^^^^^^^muslim but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is. i wonder what an equal definition would be.. any takers.. the american press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to refer to both christians and jews. christian fundementalists are often refered to in the context of anti-abortion protests. the american media also uses fundamentalist to refer to jews who live in judea, samaria or gaza, and to any jew who follows the torah. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 with regards to my condemnation of marc's ridiculous attacks on the american department of justice, and further attacks on jews, to anyone who took offense to my calling marc stupid, i apologize for pointing out the obvious. it was a waste of the net's time. i hope, though, that most american citizens have the basic knowlege of the structure of american government to understand the relationship between the justice department as a part of the executive branch, and the courts, which are of the judicial branch. marc's ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs. 
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 resistance fighters. don't forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii. and all this time i thought it was the us & britian invading normandy, the constant, round the clock bombing, and the fact that the germans were fighting on two fronts. how silly of me. :) this is not to devalue the actions of the resistance movements, but resistance movements did not defeat the nazis. diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied! they are now turning to the only option they see as viable. (don't forget that it worked in driving out the us) israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on israel, and when the syrians agree to leave. the lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long, or maybe they're not capable of getting rid of the syrians and iranians who occupy their land. if they closed down the hezbolah, and negotiated a withdrawl of syrian forces, israel would be happy to leave. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 [most of brads post deleted.] we have come to accept and deal with, the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw, this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw. tell me, do these young men also attack syrian troops? with the blood of its soldiers. if israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from our land. there must be a guarantee of peace before this happens. it seems that many of these lebanese youth are unable to restrain themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions prolong israels stay in south lebanon. if the lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then israel would not have to be there. until it is, israel prefers that its soldiers die rather than its children. if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so-called "security zone" before the conclusion of the peace talks. such a move would save israeli lives, advance peace efforts, give israel a great moral lift, better israel's public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions. israel should withdraw from lebanon when a peace treaty is signed. not a day before. withdraw because of casualties would tell the lebanese people that all they need to do to push israel around is kill a few soldiers. its not gonna happen. along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it. why should israel not demand this while holding the buffer zone? it seems to me that the better bargaining position is while holding your neighbors land. if lebanon were willing to agree to those conditions, israel would quite probably have left already. unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the lebanese can disarm the hizbolah, and maintain the peace. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 it is not a "terrorist camp" as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc..... some young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of the lebanese resistance. even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to. these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time. they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols. every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps, israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians. this a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups: to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or, in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. certainly the people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm's way. are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, israel should totally back down? so...the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives? if israel insists that the so called "security zone" is necessary for the protection of northern israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers. your damn right israel insists on some sort of "demilitarized" or "buffer" zone. its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory of arab states and watched as the states did nothing. it is not exactly surprizing that israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to do it themselves. if israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from our land. what? so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again? while i also hope for this to happen, it will only occur when arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil. they have to prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of tolerance towards "anti-israel guerillas in-residence". i have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled. good lord, brad. what in the world goves you the idea that un troops stop anything? they are only stationed in a country because that country allows them in. it can ask them to leave *at any time*; as nasser did in '56 and '67. somehow, with that "limitation" on the troops "powers" i don't think that israel is going to be any more comfortable. without a *genuine* commitment to peace from the arab states, and concrete (not intellectual or political exercises in jargon) "guarantees" by other parties, the un is worthless to israel (but, perhaps useful as a "ruse"?). this is the only realistic solution, it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed. in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in. perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently accept our fate." if,however, you call on israel to see the sense of suffering fewer casualties, i suggest you apply the same to palestinian, arab and islamic groups. if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so-called "security zone" before the conclusion of the peace talks. such a move would save israeli lives, advance peace efforts, give israel a great moral lift, better israel's public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions. along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it. from israel's perspective, "concessions" gets it nothing...except the realization that it has given "something" up and now *can only hope* that the other side decides to do likewise. words *can be taken back* by merely doing so; to "take back" tangible items (land, control of land) requires the sort of action you say israel should stay away from. israel put up with attacks from arab state territories for decades before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of lebanon. the entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above: 1) israel would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the arab state involved, 2) that state promptly ignored the entire matter, secure in the knowledge that it could not be held responsible for the acts committed by "private groups", 3) israel would prepare for the next round of attacks. what would israel want to return to those days (and don't be so idiotic as to suggest "trust" for the motivations of present-day arab states)? there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such ah, ok...what is "different" about the present situation that tells us that the arab states will *not* pursue their past antagonistic policies towards israel? now, don't talk about vague "political factors" but about those "tangible" (just like that which israel gave up) factors that "guarantee" the responsibility of those states. your assessment of "difference" here is based on a whole lot of assumptions, and most states don't feel confortable basing their existence on that sort of thing. and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon. it has not. without the support, and active involvement, of syria, lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred. once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control? if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel. your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and selectively naive. 
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 [snip] in the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied lebanese terrritory is not an act of terrorism or murder. it is disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in munich or any other act of terrorism or mrder. this exercise is aimed solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth. i agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc... is not terrorism. that having been said, lets continue. [snip] imagine ???? it is not a "terrorist camp" as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc..... i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist camps". there are however some which come very close to serving that purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way prior to the invasion. some young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of the lebanese resistance. even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to. these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time. they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols. every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps, israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians. once they are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist hideout" where an 8 year old girl just happened to be. some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you describe. not all are. there are a large number of groups in the area, backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes. hizbollah and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be. as to retaliation, while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate bombing, which would have produced major casualties. israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that we have come to accept and deal with, the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw, this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw. well, here we disagree. i think that israel would willingly withdraw if the lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police it and prevent further attacks. this is the only realistic solution, it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed. in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in. actually that is not clear at all. i will agree that the death toll is no longer civilian and now primarily military though. there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances, and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon. no, the syrian gov't is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass. i could elaborate if necessary. i agree, only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder, no matter what you say. no, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 it's curious that serdar spend his time attacking greeks and armenians. who just happen to be historical opponents of turkey. the because, the x-soviet armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. and they are doing 'it' again. are you so problem is, everybody - arab, greek, bulgar, serb, russian, tartar, circassian, persian, kurd - is, or has been an opponent. who has been kurds 'r' us; armenians 'r' not. an ally? this historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain toll on serdar: perhaps he should be posting to alt.raving.nationalist rather than soc.history? excuse me? "we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. our troops surrounded village after village. little resistance was offered. our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. some of the tartars escaped of course. they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey. the rest were killed. and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages. they are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead." ohanus appressian "men are like that" p. 202. a genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an attempt to exterminate a race. this is the worst crime in history. it happened to the turks in eastern anatolia and the armenian dictatorship. 2.5 million turks and kurds were killed in the worst ways imaginable. it is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslims happened. people of turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were killed in the turkish genocide. i understand their anger that there are those who still deny that the turkish genocide indeed took place, despite the fact that the genocide of 2.5 million turks has been well documented over the past six decades. we cannot reverse the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the atlantic, so as to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because of their religion or their race. source: bristol papers, general correspondence: container #32 - bristol to bradley letter of september 14, 1920. "i have it from absolute first-hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar (turkish) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village." lets get somethings straight. why not? 1. armenians are no angels, but they were subject to turkish genocide. and the germans were subject to jewish genocide? are you for real? tell me 'halsall', were you high on "asala/sdpa/arf" forgeries and fabrications when you wrote that? where is your non-existent list of scholars. here is mine: during the first world war and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the 20th century acted upon an entire people. this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as u.s. ambassador mark bristol, william langer, ambassador layard, james barton, stanford shaw, arthur chester, john dewey, robert dunn, papazian, nalbandian, ohanus appressian, jorge blanco villalta, general nikolayef, general bolkovitinof, general prjevalski, general odiselidze, meguerditche, kazimir, motayef, twerdokhlebof, general hamelin, rawlinson, avetis aharonian, dr. stephan eshnanie, varandian, general bronsart, arfa, dr. hamlin, boghos nubar, sarkis atamian, katchaznouni, rachel bortnick, halide edip, mccarthy, w. b. allen, paul muratoff and many j. c. hurewitz, professor of government emeritus, former director of the middle east institute (1971-1984), columbia university. bernard lewis, cleveland e. dodge professor of near eastern history, princeton university. halil inalcik, university professor of ottoman history & member of the american academy of arts & sciences, university of chicago. peter golden, professor of history, rutgers university, newark. stanford shaw, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. thomas naff, professor of history & director, middle east research institute, university of pennsylvania. ronald jennings, associate professor of history & asian studies, university of illinois. howard reed, professor of history, university of connecticut. dankwart rustow, distinguished university professor of political science, city university graduate school, new york. john woods, associate professor of middle eastern history, university of chicago. john masson smith, jr., professor of history, university of california at berkeley. alan fisher, professor of history, michigan state university. avigdor levy, professor of history, brandeis university. andreas g. e. bodrogligetti, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. kathleen burrill, associate professor of turkish studies, columbia university. roderic davison, professor of history, george washington university. walter denny, professor of history, university of massachusetts. caesar farah, professor of history, university of minnesota. tom goodrich, professor of history, indiana university of pennsylvania. tibor halasi-kun, professor emeritus of turkish studies, columbia university. justin mccarthy, professor of history, university of louisville. jon mandaville, professor of history, portland state university (oregon). robert olson, professor of history, university of kentucky. madeline zilfi, professor of history, university of maryland. james stewart-robinson, professor of turkish studies, university of michigan. .......so the list goes on and on and on..... now wait, there is more. mark alan epstein, 'the ottoman jewish communities and their role in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries,' klaus schwarz werlag, freiburg (1980). page 19: <<during the fifteenth century, when the ottomans were struggling to reestablish themselves in the balkans, there was considerable turmoil among the jewish communities in central and western europe. even if the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the fourteenth are minimized, it is easy to understand the attraction which ottoman life, particularly when compared to life in europe, held for the jews. there is no way to tell how many jews left christendom for the realm of the rising muslim ottomans, but with each account of persecution in or expulsion from christian countries it is recorded that some jews fled to ottoman territory. the regularity of these reports suggests that the ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that there was a regular trickle of jewish families moving southward and eastward from western and central europe. (...) it is evident that the effects of plague, late crusades, and the general intolerance and persecution of jews in christian europe resulted in the redirection of the whole focus of jewish life which, for more than two centuries, was to be oriented toward muslim east.>> page 21: <<in the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official in the edirne jewish community was rabbi yitzhak sarfati the ashkenazi chief rabbi of the city. he was the most important rabbi in the city and the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation of the edirne jewry in the fifteenth century. sarfati himself was from christian europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two recent arrivals from there, who, upon seeing the prosperity and freedom of the ottoman jews, prevailed upon him to write their european coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate. this remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant conditions in the ottoman domains, but described as well the ease of travel to palestine and the holy places, an attraction to those who would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there.>> (*) page 41: <<...the impression gained from the hebrew sources is that the jews were firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them and the ottomans, especially in comparison to relations with the christians of europe. confirmation of the commonality of interests between muslims and jews is also indicated by the fact that european christians perceived the jews as allies of islam and were well aware of muslim-jewish cooperation. certainly the activity of important jewish financiers and politicians representing the ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed. european sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers. in addition it appears that christian pirates plundered ''turks and jews,'' their sworn enemies, and that europeans considered the jews to be agents who regularly reported to the ottomans. there are well-known examples of overt jewish support for the ottomans in the struggle against european powers. the two best known instances of jewish support for the campaigning ottomans are the frequently cited instances of the jewish contributions to the conquests of buda, in the early sixteenth century, and of rhodes. we also have reports of sympathy for the ottomans during the siege of chios. an unpublished ottoman document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some greek towns...>> page 43: <<it is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally accepted fact that the interests of jews and muslims coincided frequently, and all parties involved, jews, muslims, and christians, were aware of the situation.>> page 46: <<...it seems that the relations between greeks and jews were not particularly cordial. the two groups had little in common, few common interests, and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition which could serve as the basis for cooperation, rather than enmity. if there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, it was that between muslims and jews, neither of whom had much in common with the orthodox.>> page 46: <<the general impression of muslim-jewish relations in the ottoman context during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of interests. from the earliest times the ottomans seem to have welcomed jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element. the jewish response to this tolerance was a steady flow of jews from christian countries to ottoman domains.>> page 151: <<from the period before 1453 we have only a few indications that the ottoman-jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would characterize it for years afterward, but the liberality of the ottomans, in contrast to the intolerance of the byzantines, and the protection and the security which the ottomans offered, in comparison to conditions elsewhere, leave little doupt that even then both the ottomans and the jews recognized their mutual interests...>> page 161: <<it is impossible to say how fundamental the jews were in the success of the ottomans in rebuilding istanbul or in ottoman mercantile success in the sixteenth century. that they played an important role in both cannot be doupted. it is also unclear whether they were important enough to say that the ottomans would not have experienced their great success without the jews and that no other group could have been found to serve the ottomans as well as did the jews. it is, however, unmistakably clear that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable partnership between jews and the non-jewish society in which they lived. we must conclude that the ottomans could probably not achieved their success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the jews did. certainly for the jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries the ottoman empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home.>> (*) a version of rabbi sarfati's [tzarfati] letter is given by prof.shaw: page 32: <<your cries and sobs reached us. we have been told of all the troubles and persecutions which you have to suffer in the german lands....i hear the lamentation of my brethren...the barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people...the priests and prelates of rome have risen. they wish to root out the memory of jacob and erase the name of israel. they always devise new persecutions. they wish to bring you to the stake...listen my brethren, to the counsel i will give you. i too was born in germany and studied torah with the german rabbis. i was driven out of my native country and came to the turkish land, which is blessed by god and filled with all good things. here i found rest and happiness; turkey can also become for you the land of peace...if you who live in germany knew even a tenth of what god has blessed us with in this land, you would not consider any difficulties; you would set out to come to us...here in the land of the turks we have nothing to complain of. we possess great fortunes; much gold and silver in our hands. we are not oppressed with heavy taxes, and our commerce is free and unhindered. rich are the fruits of the earth. everything is cheap, and every one of us lives in peace and freedom. here the jew is not compelled to wear a yellow hat as a badge of shame, as is the case in germany, where even wealth and great fortune are a curse for a jew because he therewith arouses jealousy among the christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him to rob him of his gold. arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect your forces, and come to us. here you will be free of your enemies, here you will find rest...>>[13] [13] israel zinberg, a history of jewish literature. vol.v. the jewish center of culture in the ottoman empire (hebrew union college press, ktav publishers, new york, 1974). serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 my personal problem with romanian culture is that i am not aware of one. there is an anecdote about armenians troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level. the image-conscious armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background. armenians have never achieved statehood and independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers. they committed genocide against the muslim populations of eastern anatolia and armenian dictatorship before and during world war i and fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during world war ii. belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the armenian history. to obliterate these episodes the armenians engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. in this zeal they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds before and during world war i. and, you don't pull nations out of a hat. source: walker, christopher: "armenia: the survival of a nation." new york (st. martin's press), 1980. this generally pro-armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the nazi holocaust: a) dro (the butcher), the former dictator of the armenian dictatorship and the architect of the genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds, the most respected of nazi armenian leaders, established an armenian provisional republic in berlin during world war ii; b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the nazis, declared themselves and all armenians to be members of the aryan 'super-race;' c) they published an anti-semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves with the nazis and their efforts to exterminate the jews; and, d) they mobilized an armenian army of up to 20,000 members which fought side by side with the wehrmacht. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 what about cyprus?? the majority of the population is christian, but your fellow turkish friends did and still doing a 'good' job for you by cleaning the area from christians. all your article reflects is your abundant ignorance. the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece, someday, whatever the cost to the parties involved. the history speaks for itself. greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop following the greek cypriot attempt to annex the island to greece with the aid of the greek army, turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements. turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the island, turkish cypriots. for those turkish cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island since 1571. the release of nikos sampson, a member of eoka [national organization of cypriot fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the 'enosis' mentality continues to survive in greece. one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to destroy the island's independence by annexing it to greece. of course, the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct. the museum of barbarism 2 irfan bey street, kumsal area, nicosia, cyprus it is the house of dr. nihat ilhan, a major who was serving at the cyprus turkish army contingent. during the attacks launched against the turks by the greeks, on 20th december 1963, dr. nihat ilhan's wife and three children were ruthlessly and brutally killed in the bathroom, where they had tried to hide, by savage greeks. dr. nihat ilhan happened to be on duty that night, the 24th december 1963. pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which has been converted into a museum. an eye-witness account of how a turkish family was butchered by greek terrorists the date is the 24th of december, 1963... the onslaught of the greeks against the turks, which started three days ago, has been going on with all its ferocity; and defenseless women, old men and children are being brutally killed by greeks. and now kumsal area of nicosia witnesses the worst example of the greeks savage bloodshed... the wife and the three infant children of dr. nihat ilhan, a major on duty at the camp of the cyprus turkish army contingent, are mercilessly and dastardly shot dead while hiding in the bathroom of their house, by maddened greeks who broke into their home. a glaring example of greek barbarism. let us now listen to the relating of the said incident told by mr. hasan yusuf gudum, an eye witness, who himself was wounded during the same terrible event. "on the night of the 24th of december, 1963 my wife feride hasan and i were paying a visit to the family of major dr. nihat ilhan. our neighbours mrs. ayshe of mora, her daughter ishin and mrs. ayshe's sister novber were also with us. we were all sitting having supper. all of a sudden bullets from the pedieos river direction started to riddle the house, sounding like heavy rain. thinking that the dining-room where we were sitting was dangerous, we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer. altogether we were nine persons. we all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet. we waited in fear. mrs. ilhan the wife of major doctor, was standing in the bath with her three children murat, kutsi and hakan in her arms. suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open. greeks had come in and were combing, every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets. during these moments i heard voices saying, in greek, "you want taksim eh!" and then bullets started flying in the bathroom. mrs. ilhan and her three children fell into the bath. they were shot. at this moment the greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again. i heard one of the major's children moan, then i fainted. when i came to myself 2 or 3 hours later, i saw mrs. ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath. i and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded. but what had happened to my wife? then i remembered and immediately ran to the toilet, where, in the doorway, i saw her body. she was brutally murdered. in the street admist the sound of shots i heard voices crying "help, help. is there no one to save us?" i became terrified. i thought that if the greeks came again and found that i was not dead they would kill me. so i ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double-bed. an our passed by. in the distance i could still hear shots. my mouth was dry, so i came out from under the bed and drank some water. then i put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom, which was exactly as i had left in an hour ago. there i offered sweets to mrs. ayshe, her daughter and mrs. novber who were all wounded. we waited in the bathroom until 5 o'clock in the morning. i thought morning would never come. we were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital. finally, as we could walk, mrs. novber and i, went out into the street hoping to find help, and walked as far as koshklu chiftlik. there, we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on. when i regained my consciousness i said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought mrs. ayshe and her daughter. after staying three days in the hospital i was sent by plane to ankara for further treatment. there i have had four months treatment but still i cannot use my arm. on my return to cyprus, greeks arrested me at the airport. all i have related to you above i told the greeks during my detention. they then released me." on foot into cyprus's devastated turkish quarter we went tonight into the sealed-off turkish quarter of nicosia in which 200 to 300 people have been slaughtered in the last five we were the first western reporters there, and we saw some terrible sights. in the kumsal quarter at no. 2, irfan bey sokagi, we made our way into a house whose floors were covered with broken glass. a child's bicycle lay in a corner. in the bathroom, looking like a group of waxworks, were three children piled on top of their murdered mother. in a room next to it we glimpsed the body of a woman shot in the this, we were told, was the home of a turkish army major whose family had been killed by the mob in the first violence. today was five days later, and still they lay there. rene maccoll and daniel mcgeachie, (from the "daily express") "...i saw in a bathroom the bodies of a mother and three infant children murdered because their father was a turkish officer..." max clos, le figaro 25-26 january, 1964 peter moorhead reporting from the village of skyloura, cyprus. date : 1 january, 1964. il giarno (italy) they are turk-hunting, they want to exterminate them. discussions start in london; in cyprus terror continues. right now we are witnessing the exodus of turks from the villages. thousands of people abandoning homes, land, herds; greek cypriot terrorism is relentless. this time, the rhetoric of the hellenes and the bust of plato do not suffice to cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors. article by giorgo bocca, correspondent of il giorno daily herald (london) an appalling sight and when i came across the turkish homes they were an appalling sight. apart from the walls, they just did not exist. i doubt if a napalm bomb attack could have created more devastation. i counted 40 blackened brick and concrete shells that had once been homes. each house had been deliberately fired by petrol. under red tile roofs which had caved in, i found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's conts and cribs, and ankle deep grey ashes of what had once been chairs, tables and wardrobes. in the neighbouring village of ayios vassilios, a mile away, i counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. they were all turkish cypriot homes. from this village more than 100 turkish cypriots had also vanished.in neither village did i find a scrap of damage to any greek cypriot house. daily telegraph (london) graves of 12 shot turkish cypriots found in cyprus village silent crowds gathered tonight outside the red crescent hospital in the turkish sector of nicosia, as the bodies of 9 turkish cypriots found crudely buried outside the village of ayios vassilios, 13 miles away, were brought to the hospital under the escort of the parachute regiment. three more bodies, including one of a woman, were discovered nearby but could not be removed. turkish cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to locate the bodies of 20 more believed to have been buried on the same site. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 source: "men are like that" by leonard ramsden hartill. the bobbs-merrill company, indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). (memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 204 (first paragraph). "i was soon asleep. in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child. i arose and went to investigate. a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted. guided by the child's crying, i entered the yard of a house, which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family. there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead. her throat had been cut. lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a year old." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 4/15/93 1242 turkey sends light weapons as aid to azerbaijan by seva ulman ankara, turkey (upi) -- turkey is arming azerbaijan with light weapons to help it fight armenian forces in the struggle for the nagorno- karabakh enclave, the newspaper hurriyet said thursday. deputy prime minister erdal inonu told reporters in ankara that turkey was responding positively to a request from azerbaijan for assistance. "we are giving a positive response to all requests" from azerbaijan, "within the limits of our capabilities," he said. foreign ministry spokesman vural valkan declined to elaborate on the nature of the aid being sent to azerbaijan, but said they were within the framework of the council for security and cooperation in europe. hurriyet, published in istanbul, said turkey was sending light weapons to azerbaijan, including rockets, rocket launchers and ammunition. ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to turkey last week by a high-ranking azerbaijani official. turkey has however ruled out, for the second time in one week, that it would intervene militarily in azerbaijan. wednesday, inonu told reporters ankara would not allow azerbaijan to suffer defeat at the hands of the armenians. "we feel ourselves bound to help azerbaijan, but i am not in a position right now to tell you what form (that) help may take in the future," he said. he said turkish aid to azerbaijan was continuing, "and the whole world knows about it." prime minister suleyman demirel reiterated that turkey would not get militarily involved in the conflict. foreign policy decisions could not be based on street-level excitement, he said. there was no immediate reaction in ankara to regional reports, based on armenian sources in yerevan, saying turkish pilots and other officers were captured when they were shot down flying azerbaijani warplanes and the newspaper cumhuriyet said turkish troops were digging in along the border with armenia, but military sources denied reports based on claims by local people that gunfire was heard along the border. no military action has occurred, the sources said. the latest upsurge in fighting between the armenians and azerbaijanis flared early this month when armenian forces seized the town of kelbajar and later positioned themselves outside fizuli, near the iranian border. david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 ca (suat kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. kubilay kultigin] continues... [kk] butun netteki arkadaslara duyuru.... [kk] [kk] (siyasi platformun hangi "tarafinda olursaniz olun") [kk] [kk] bugunlerde bu nette olsun, talk.politics.mideast ve talk.politics. [kk] soviet'te olsun olagan dan fazla ve "etkin" ermeni ve yunan [kk] postingleri yazilmaktadir. bu yazilarin cogu guncel karabag [kk] kibris ve bosna konularinda yogunlasmaktadir. buradan hareketle [kk] "hepimizin" biraz daha aktif olmasi ve "usenmeyip" cevap yazmasi [kk] oldukca faydali olacaktir. [kk] [kk] evet, herkesin isi gucu var...akademik yilin yogun bir donemi [kk] fakat meydani bos birakmamanin ve ulkemizin cikarlarini "ideolojik [kk] platformda" gozetmenin de sorumlulugu var... [kk] [kk] yarinlarin cagdas ve guclu turkiyesi'ni hep beraber kurmak umuduyla, [kk] [kk] saygilar, [kk] kubilay kultigin [kk] ***** vatan sevgisi ruhlari kirden kurtaran en kuvvetli ruzgardir ***** in translation, as a public service: an annoncement to all friends on the net... (regardless of "wherever you stand" on the political spectrum) in recent days armenian and greek postings of than the usual in number and "effectiveness" are being written both on this net and the talk.politics. mideast and talk.politics.soviet. most of these writings concentrate on the subjects of karabagh, cyprus and bosnia. due to this fact, it is quite useful for "us all" be more active and "not feel reluctant" to respond. yes, everybody has his/her occupation...it is a busy period in the academic year. however, [we must] have a responsibilty not to leave the forum empty and watch the interests of our country on the "ideological level"... in the hope of building together a modern and powerful turkey of tomorrrow. kubilay kultigin ***** the love of the fatherland is the strongest of all winds cleansing filth off souls ***** david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 |> i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel |> diverted water from lebanon--his imagination. |> alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org mr. water-head, i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side, so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it !#$%^%&&*-head. 
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 i recently read that during bill clinton's campaign, he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel's capital. according to the article, mr. clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency. however, during recent talks with president mubarak, secretary of state christopher stated that "the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties". now i don't want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem. all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr. clinton's statements with dates, places, etc. thank you. 
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 o dr. namaki, deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality (under one year old) in iran went down from 120 per thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at the end of 1371 (last month). o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only 254f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached 93at the end of 1371. o dr. malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of 1371 went below 2.7 o during the visit of mahathir mohammad, the prime minister of malaysia, to iran, agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were signed. according to one agreement, iran will be in charge of building malaysia's natural gas network. - farzin mokhtarian 
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 well, it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters. so, napoleon, why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul? marek osinski thessaloniki is called thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300 years. the city was never called solun by its inhabitants. instabul was called konstantinoupolis from 320 ad until about the 1920s. that's about 1600 years. there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis. how many people do you know that were born in a city called solun. 
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 the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files. so it will be nice if yigal will tell us: 1. why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous? adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including the millions of americans of arab ancestry. perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california (and elsewhere??)? friendly rivalry perhaps? come on! most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel. that is why the adl monitors arab organizations. that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago. perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member? or the naacp? or a reporter? or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic minorities/occupations that the adl spied on. all of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti- israel activity or propoganda. the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise. 2. why does the adl have an interest in that person ? no, that is why world trade center bombings don't happen in israel (aside from the fact that there is no world trade center) and why people like zein isa ( palestinian whose american group planned to bow up the israeli embassy and "kill many jews.") are caught. as mordechai levy of the jdl said, paranoid jews live longer. 3. if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them ? the names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already have them. they probably do. gideon ehrlich 
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 |> from: center for policy research <cpr> |> subject: unconventional peace proposal |> a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle-east. |> ---------------------------------------------------------- by |> elias davidsson |> 1. a fund should be established which would disburse grants |> for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli-jew |> and the other palestinian-arab. |> 2. to be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove |> that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to israeli |> citizenship under the law of return and the other partner, |> although born in areas under current isreali control, is not |> entitled to such citizenship under the law of return. |> 3. for the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. for |> the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. for each |> subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child. |> i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as |> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful |> discussion and enrichment. |> elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik, iceland maybe i'm a bit old-fashioned, but have you heard about something called love? it used to play some role in people's considerations for getting married. of course i know some people who married fictitiously in order to get a green card, but making a common child for 18,000$? the power of aa is limited. your proposal is indeed unconventional. oded maler, lgi-imag, bat d, b.p. 53x, 38041 grenoble, france phone: 76635846 fax: 76446675 e-mail: maler@imag.fr 
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 why do you insist on reposting the entire original post? don't waste bandwidth, please. you know how picky us non- jews can be. ha ha. :| 
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 ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to accurate answers to the following specific questions. these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me. 1. is it true that the israeli authorities don't recognize israeli nationality ? and that id cards, which israeli citizens must carry at all times, identify people as jews or arabs, not as israelis ? 2. is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be 3. is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? if so, could you provide any evidence ? 4. is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets ? 5. is it true that jews who reside in the occupied territories are subject to different laws than non-jews? 6. is it true that jews who left palestine in the war 1947/48 to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ? 7. is it true that israel's prime minister, y. rabin, signed an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in bosnia-herzegovina ? 8. is it true that israeli arab citizens are not admitted as members in kibbutzim? 9. is it true that israeli law attempts to discourage marriages between jews and non-jews ? 10. is it true that hotel hilton in tel aviv is built on the site of a muslim cemetery ? elias davidsson iceland email: elias@ismennt.is 
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 first this man promotes the dissolution of the jews through an intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch of 'fundamentalist' jews who will object. this clown even called for 'buying' the dissolution of the jewish people. does this idiot mean to suggest that any jew who objects to an imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist? or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 'fundamentalist?' i am not orthodox. i am not fundamentalist. i would desire a genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead davidsson can ever understand. but when he shows his willingness to dismiss an entire culture, he proves that the only thing more brain-boggling than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in this newsgroup. please take your hatred for the essence of judaism and shove it up your ass. remember to pull your head out first. 
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 i sure hope so. because, the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted. armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of no! no! no no no no no. it is not justifiable to right wrongs of previous years. well, there is a bit: such as the german reparations to the jewish survivors of the holocaust. certainly, as such an event goes further into the past, reparations become less realistic. i was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the world. they were 'our' grandparents who were cold-bloodedly exterminated by the armenians between 1914 and 1920, not yours. and you can always participate in 'the turkish genocide day' along with millions of turkish and kurdish people on april 23, 1993 in the united states and canada. ...on this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice of the restitution of turkish and kurdish rights and... - we demand that the x-soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide, render reparations to the muslim people, and return the land to its rightful owners. the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed. - we believe the time has come to demand from the the united states that it formally recognizes the turkish and kurdish genocide, adopts the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to armenian pressures to the contrary. - as taxpayers of the united states, we express our vehement protest to the present u.s. government policy of continued coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-soviet - we also demand that the united states return to the policies advocated by u.s. ambassador bristol and other enlightened statesmen, who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude towards the rights of the muslim people and the just resolution of their case. - our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-soviet armenia's. and in article <2bac262d.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have blatantly lied: the goltz article was not published in the sunday times magazine on march 1, 1992, but in the guardian sunday section. well, still anxiously awaiting... cis commander pulls troops out of karabagh : "elif kaban, a reuter correspondent in agdam, reported that after a battle on wednesday, azeris were burying scores of people who died when armenians overran the town of khojaly, the second-biggest azeri settlement in the area. 'the world is turning its back on what's happening here. we are dying and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists." helen womack the independent, 2/29/92 armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families: "the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children. they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees. the few survivors later described what happened: 'that's when the real slaughter began,' said azer hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive. 'the armenians just shot and shot. and they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives.' a 45-year-old man who had been shot in the back said:' we were walking through the brush. then they opened up on us and people were falling all around. my wife fell, then my child." thomas goltz sunday times, 3/1/92 armenian raid leaves azeris dead or fleeing: "...about 1,000 of khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in tuesdays attack. azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the khocaly area." brian killen (reuters) the washington times, 3/2/92 atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan : "azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off... 'women and children had been scalped,' said assad faradzev, an aide to karabagh's azeri governor. azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam, some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out." brian killen (reuters) the washington times, 3/3/92 massacre by armenians being reported: "the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed 1,000 [azeris]... but dozens of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre." (reuters) the new york times, 3/3/92 killings rife in nagorno-karabagh, moldova: "journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some of the civilians, and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies." fred hiatt the washington post, 3/3/92 bodies mark site of karabagh massacre: "a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijanis to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. all are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. of the 31 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform. all the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small children. two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms. several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head injuries: only her face was left. survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground." anatol lieven the times (london), 3/3/92 karabagh survivors flee to mountains: "geyush gassanov, the deputy mayor of khocaly, said that armenian troops surrounded the town after 7 pm on tuesday. they were accompanied by six or seven light tanks and armoured carriers. 'we thought they would just bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat. but they attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.' other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their way through the mountains to safety. 'for two days we crawled most of the way to avoid gunfire,' sukru aslanov said. his daughter was killed in the battle for khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road." anatol lieven the times (london), 3/3/92 corpses litter hills in karabagh: "as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno-karabagh we saw the scattered corpses. apparently, the refugees had been shot down as they ran...suddenly there was a thump...[our azerbaijani helicopter] had been fired on from an armenian anti-aircraft post..." anatol lieven the times (london), 3/4/92 "police in western azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of 120 azerbaijanis killed as they fled an armenian assault in the disputed enclave of nagorno-karabagh and said they were blocked from recovering more bodies." the wall street journal, 3/4/92 exiting troops attacked in nagorno-karabagh: "withdrawal halted; armenians blamed... more video footage and reports from khocaly paint a grim picture of widespread civilian deaths and mutilation... one woman's feet appeared to have been bound..." paul quinn-judge the boston globe, 3/4/92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 buch of crap and you know it. nagarno-karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris. go back and review the history. if a 'dog's prayers were answered, bones would rain from the sky. did you know that the word 'karabag' itself is a 'turkish' name? before 1827, before the russians and their 'zavalli kole' armenians, drove all the turks/muslims out, it was a turkish majority town. well, anyway, it is not surprising that armenians also collaborated with the "wholly opportunistic the dashnaktzoutun have been variously pro-nazi, pro-russia, pro-soviet armenia, pro-arab, pro-jewish, as well as anti-jewish, anti-zionist, anti-communist, and anti-soviet - whichever was expedient."[1] [1] john roy carlson (arthur derounian), 'cairo to damascus,' alfred a. knopf, new york, 1951, p. 438. as a dear friend put it, the tzeghagrons (armenian racial patriots) was the youth organization of the dashnaktzoutun. it was based in boston (where asala/sdpa/arf terrorism triangle is located) but had followers in armenian colonies all over the world. literally tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one's race.' the architect of the armenian racial patriots was garegin nezhdeh, a nazi armenian who became a key leader of collaboration with hitler in world war ii. in 1933, he had been invited to the united states by the central committee of the dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the american-armenian youth. nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local armenian youth groups in the tzeghagrons. starting with 20 chapters in the initial year, the tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters and became the largest and most powerful nazi armenian organization. nezhdeh also provided the tzeghagrons with a philosophy: "the racial religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity. race above everything and before everything. race comes first."[1] [1] quoted in john roy carlson (real name arthur derounian), "the armenian displaced persons," in 'armenian affairs,' winter, 1949-50, p. 19, footnote. now wait, there is more. the gruesome extent of february's killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan - about 600 men, women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four-year war over nagorny karabakh. the figure is drawn from azeri investigators, hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press. diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates. the 25 february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four-year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh, the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday. the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre, but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians. the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku. later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief-stricken azerbaijan's wild and contradictory allegations of up to 2,000 the state prosecuter, aydin rasulov, the cheif investigator of a 15-man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the "hojali disaster", said his figure of 600 people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings. a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali. an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may - 479 dead people named and more than 200 bodies reported unidentified. this figure of nearly 700 dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova, the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence. francois zen ruffinen, head of delegation of the international red cross in baku, said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of 580 bodies received at his mosque from hojali, most of them civilians. "we did not count the bodies. but the figure seems reasonable. it is no fantasy," mr zen ruffinen said. "we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead." mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre. "don't get worked up. it will take several months to get a final figure," the 43-year-old lawyer said at his small office. mr rasulov knows about these things. it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that 131 people were killed and 714 wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january 1990. those nationalists, the popular front, finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali, an azeri town which lies about 70 miles from the border with armenia, fell to the armenians. officially, 184 people have so far been certified as dead, being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic's forensic department. "this is just a small percentage of the dead," said rafiq youssifov, the republic's chief forensic scientist. "they were the only bodies brought to us. remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within 24 hours." of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14 years old. gunshots killed 151 people, shrapnel killed 20 and axes or blunt instruments killed 10. exposure in the highland snows killed the last three. thirty-three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation, including ears, noses, breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out, according to professor youssifov's report. those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed, mr rasulov said. files from mr rasulov's investigative commission are still disorganised - lists of 44 azeri militiamen are dead here, six policemen there, and in handwriting of a mosque attendant, the names of 111 corpses brought to be washed in just one day. the most heartbreaking account from 850 witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov, an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on 27 "there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly: 470-500 in hojali, 650-700 people by the stream and the road and 85-100 visible around nakhchivanik village," mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter "people waved up to us for help. we saw three dead children and one two-year-old alive by one dead woman. the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return." there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces. the independent, london, 12/6/'92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to accurate answers to the following specific questions. these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me. 1. is it true that the israeli authorities don't recognize israeli nationality ? and that id cards, which israeli citizens must carry at all times, identify people as jews or arabs, not as israelis ? that's true. israeli id cards do not identify people as israelies. smart huh? 3. is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? if so, could you provide any evidence ? yes. there's one warhead in my parent's backyard in beer sheva (that's only some 20 miles from dimona, you know). evidence? i saw it! 4. is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets ? yes. but unfortunately i can't give you more details. that's _secret_, you see. elias davidsson iceland email: elias@ismennt.is you're welcome. now, let me ask you a few questions, if you don't mind: 1. is it true that the center for policy research is a one-man enterprise? 2. is it true that your questions are not being asked bona fide? 3. is it true that your statement above, "these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me" is not true? 
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 why does the center for policy research pose such unbelievably stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup. what are you? - a think tank, or a fish tank? every time i start to believe i have seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity, you come up with one step beyond. when will it end, man? can you actually have brain enough to dress and feed yourself each morning? 
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 my response to the "shooting down" of a turkish airplane over the armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the person from your country. turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan. the karabakhi-armenians who have lived in their homeland for 3000 years (cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin) are the ones directly involved in the conflict. they are defending themselves against azeri aggression. agression that has no mercy for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig-23's and othe russian aircraft. at last, i hope that the u.s. insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again. armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan. it is armenian soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan. you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression only in that region. it seems to me that the armenians are better organized, have more success militarily and shell azeri towns i don't wish to get into the cyprus discussion. turkey had the right to intervene, and it did. perhaps the intervention was not supposed to last for so long, but the constant refusal of the greek governments both on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed for the ongoing standoff in the region. lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia? i vote yes for it. after all, it is now free. 
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 message-id: <1993apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> mr.napoleon responds: ********************* to mr. napoleon****************** well, panos, mr. tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective. when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides. what were you doing on anatolia after the ww1 anyway? do you think it was your right to be there? ** there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor **until 1923 someone had to protect them. if not us who?? is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land. as soon as you got green lights from allied forces, you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey. you killed and raped millions people without any reason. of course, you paid the price. mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere. i am not saying that conflicts started with that. it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering. it is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise. i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey. i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better. **compromise on what, the invasion of cyprus, the involment of turkey in **greek politics, the refusal of turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial **waters as stated by international law, the properties of the greeks of **konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the greek lake,sorry, aegean. what compromise are you talking about on cyprus. that is not greece business to join the island to greece. that is up to people in the island to live or not to live together. they made their decision and they are living separetely now.there is a peace there. greeks can't slaughter turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there. your dream will never come true. 12 mile territorialwater!!!! are you joking or dreaming? we can declare our 12 miles territorial water which can come close to athens. how would you like it? if you have any guts why don't you shoot at some turkish ships in your dream 12 mile territorial waters? we do not have any city called konstantinople. we have a city called istanbul!!!! all the greeks in istanbul are being treated just any other turks. there is no difference among people in turkey. you look at your own backyard first before talking about human rights in turkey. what are the rights of turks in greece? nothing. they do not even have basic human rights like right to have property, fredom of religion, fredom of press, fredom of vote elect their community leaders. government of greece publicly encourages people to destroy and burn schools, religious places, houses, and farms belong to turkish minority. then, greek government forces these minorities to go to turkey without anything with them. you will dream to see aegean sea as greek lake but it will never happen. think about the war between turkey and greece in 1915. the river called sakarya flood 21 days filled with blood in 1915. the greeks i mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated people. they have never met me but they know! i am bad person because i am from turkey. politics is not my business, and it is not the business of most of the turks. when it comes to individuals why the hatred? **any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment **directly or indirecly is a "bad" person. **it is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support **of the actions of your goverment that make you "bad". **people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you **are. you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and **as a such you must pay the price. you mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the government of greece is a good person. that is your greek idea to say turks are bad people. we know who we are and proud to be turks anywhere in the world. that is not greeks business to tell us what kind of people we are. you are not at position to judge people because you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities. millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen, their rights are taken away from them, and they have no voices under the government of greece. they are almost being treated as slaves even though we are getting into 21th century. therefore, do not make me laught at you. so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece. after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek-turkish encounters during your schooling. take it easy! **you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks.just **as greeks, arats, slavs, kurds and all other people who had **the luck to be under turkish occupation. **they will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction. **you do not learn about turks from history books, you learn about **them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness. the government of greece is actively supporting terrorism against turkey.armenian and kurdish terrorists have headquarters in athens. they are being trained in special camps in greece. they are taught how to kill innocent women and children.this not a claim, this is a fact known by whole world. in conlusion, you are in action to murder, rape, destroy the innocent people. i do not take you seriously because you are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity. your own government, the government of greece actively supports atrocities in bosnia. serbs's barbarism pleases your government. please napoleon think twice before you write anything about turks and turkey. you are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of the minorities. who wants to be a fried with someone whose government does not respect the human rights, supports terrorism in turkey,barbaric actions in bosnia, treats turkish minorities as third class citizen and take away all of their rights, treating them as slaves at the beginning of 21th century??????? aykut atalay atakan 
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 [kk] bugunlerde "jewish jokes" muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu [kk] yazayim dedim. [kk] [kk] "israel was able to divert the jewish lobby from the greeks, [kk] for example, by persuading it that supporting the armenian [kk] resolution which came before the senate in february 1990 [kk] could help sour turco-israeli relations. in addition, the [kk] israeli embassy in washington was active in ensuring that the [kk] resolution failed, for instance by assisting turkish jews to [kk] travel to wahington to underline the affinity between israel [kk] and turkey. [kk] [kk] there was no doubt about the debt which turkey felt it owed [kk] to israel over this matter. even four months before the re- [kk] solution came up for consideration, as enior member of the [kk] turkish foreign ministry said his country was "very grateful" [kk] to israel, the cooperation, in his view, refelecting the [kk] maturity of the bilateral relationship. the experience over [kk] the armenian issue has convinced senior figures in turkey [kk] that the pro-israel network in washington can indeed deliver [kk] the desired results. [kk] [kk] [robins philip, "turkey and the middle east" 1991 chathm house [kk] papers. p. [kk] [kk] papers p.84] [kk] got to go now not so fast! you have a rather warped sense of logic! you are telling us that because israel wishes to have good relations with turkey even at the expense of armenians or armenia, makes it bad for turks to tell racist jokes against jews. thus, we can infer, if israel had poor relations with turkey, it would be alright to post such horrible jokes against jews! you impress nobody. david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 [kk] david [kk] give it a rest. will you ??? [kk] it is increasingly becoming very annoying... barbarism is rather annoying for you, now isn't it, especially when it comes from from a country, azerbaijan, that claims turkey as its number one ally, protector, and mentor! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 q: how many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it take to kill a 5 year old native child? a: four two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face, and one writes up a false report. /_______/_/__________/_/_/ _< /____/ /___ / .. /____/ 1. there is a similar idea here in ex-ussr about how many militioners it needs to place a new electric lamp. the answer is nine: one stays on a table and holds the lamp, four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad (when being turned). pitily, it lacks this kind of dark humour as nick's msg does. 2. to my mind the signature should be smth like: / _ __ / . /_______/_/_______________ /________ /____/ /___ / _ / _ .. i _ .. ii ___i__/__)____i__i__(_) i____i ___i__ii __) ' __) . 
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 henrik] my response to the "shooting down" of a turkish airplane over the henrik] armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the henrik] person from your country. turks and azeris consistantly want to henrik] drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan. the henrik] karabakhi-armenians who have lived in their homeland for 3000 henrik] years (cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin) are henrik] the ones directly involved in the conflict. they are defending henrik] themselves against azeri aggression. agression that has no mercy henrik] for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig-23's and henrik] othe russian aircraft. henrik] at last, i hope that the u.s. insists that turkey stay out of the henrik] karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will henrik] never occur again. da] armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan. it is armenian da] soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan. well, this is your opinion ! turkish/ azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue. however, i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia's involvement if karabakhi-armenians had had heavy losses. da] you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression da] only in that region. it seems to me that the armenians are better da] organized, have more success militarily and shell azeri towns da] repeatedly. read what ? the new york times , that is publishing anti-armenian articles. nop, i have my resources. look, everyone knows how aggressive turks/azeris have been in the past. armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks. da] it seems to me that the armenians are better organized, have more success da] militarily and shell azeri towns repeatedly. buch of non-sence crap and you know it. who the hell you think you are talking to ? azeris are fighting local armenians in nagarno-karabakh. you tell me who has more mig's ? freedom fighters in nagarno-karabakh or azerbaijan ? again, i will say it for the last time, armenia is not involved in this war and you guys want to bring this up in order to cover up the turkish involvment in the karabakh. go ahead , repeat as much as you want. da] i don't wish to get into the cyprus discussion. turkey had the right to da] intervene, and it did. perhaps the intervention was not supposed to da] last for so long, but the constant refusal of the greek governments both da] on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed da] for the ongoing standoff in the region. not a chance ! you can not convince me (based on your reasons)that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus. da] lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia? i vote yes for it. da] after all, it is now free. well, i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you. 
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 [h] the armenians in nagarno-karabagh are simply defending their rights [h] to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their [h] territorium... [he] homeland? first nagarno-karabagh was armenians homeland today [he] fizuli, lacin and several villages (in azerbadjan) [he] are their homeland. can't you see the [he] the "great armenia" dream in this? greater armenia would stretch from karabakh, to the black sea, to the mediterranean, so if you use the term "greater armenia" use it with care. [he] with facist methods like [he] killing, raping and bombing villages. the last move was the [he] blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to [he] escape the from lacin, a city that was "given" to the kurds [he] by the armenians. it has always been up to the azeris to end their announced winning of karabakh by removing the armenians! when the president of azerbaijan, elchibey, came to power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in lake sevan [in armeniaxn] by july". well, he was wrong! if elchibey is going to shell the armenians of karabakh from aghdam, his people will pay the price! if elchibey is going to shell karabakh from fizuli his people will pay the price! if elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing armenia from the hills of kelbajar, his people will pay the price. it also seems other non-azeri minorities in azerbaijan have understood they are next in line in this process of forced azerification or deportation. just look at the situation with the lezgians. about the kurds...what kurds! according to the azerbaijani government, there are no kurds in azerbaijan. can't they make up their minds? oh i see, there are only kurds when the azeris want them to be kurds! and anyway, this "60 kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in baku, modified in ankara. other examples of this are armenia has no border with iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of armenian military conversations as appeared in the new york times supposedly translated by somebody unknown, from armenian into azeri turkish, submitted by an unnamed "special correspondent" to the ny times from baku. real accurate! [h] however, i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane [h] to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one [h] that happened last summer. turkey searched an american plane [h] (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to armenia. [h] no, henrik, these turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked. [he] don't speak about things you don't know: 8 american cargo planes [he] were heading to armenia. when the turkish authorities [he] announced that they were going to search these cargo [he] planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in germany. [he] 5 of these planes were searched in turkey. the content of [he] of the other 3 planes? not hard to guess, is it? it was sure not [he] humanitarian aid..... your "facts" in error. shipments of all kinds that have transversed turkey have been either searched, re-routed or confiscated. some american planes were searched, others were re-routed, others were untouched. rail shipments were held up last fall and last winter from entering armenian from turkey for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of armenia. wheat was confiscated, other shipments were exchanged with "crap" and dirt, then shipped to armenia. u.s. planes don't have to use turkish air bases. the u.s. uses these bases to bomb iraq. anyway, u.s. planes can fly over georgia, which they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of turkish chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed anything other than a paranoid turkish military. [he] search turkish planes? you don't know what you are talking about. [he] since it's content is announced to be weapons? well, big mouth ozal said military weapons are being provided to azerbaijan from turkey, yet demirel and others say no. no wonder you are so confused! [he] turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons [he] to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan [he] it self, not the karabag province. so why search a plane for weapons [he] since it's content is announced to be weapons? you are correct, all turkish planes should be simply shot down! nice, slow moving air transports! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 ten questions about arab countries i would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions. these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me. 1. is it true that many arab countries don't recognize israeli nationality ? that people with israeli stamps on their passports can't enter arabic countries? 2. is it true that arabic countries such as jordan and syria have undefined borders and that arab governments from 1948 until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states should be? 3. is it true that arab countires refused to sign the chemical weapon convention treaty in paris in 1993? 4. is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets ? 4a. is it true that some arab countries, like syria, harbor nazi war criminals, and refuse to extradite them? 4b. is it true that some arab countries, like saudi arabia, prohibit women from driving cars? 5. is it true that jews who reside in the muslim countries are subject to different laws than muslims? 6. is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of entire jewish communites forced to flee by anti-jewish riots? 7. is it true that israel's prime minister, y. rabin, signed a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign? 8. is it true that syrian jews are required to leave a $10,000 deposit before leaving the country, and are no longer allowed to emmigrate, despite promises made by hafez assad to george bush? 9. is it true that jews in muslim lands are required to pay a special tax, for being jews? 10. is it true that intercontinental hotel in jerusalem was built on a jewish cemetary, with roads being paved over grave sites, and gravestones being used in jordanian latrines? 11. is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased leading questions? 11a. is it less appropriate if information implied in mr. davidsson's questions is highly misleading? adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 |> [stuff deleted] henrik] country. turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik] karabakh conflict with azerbaijan. bm] gimme a break. capital letters, or not, the above is pure nonsense. it bm] seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities again, armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves. what do want them to do. lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them. bm] while hoping that turkey will stay out. stop and think for a moment, bm] will you? armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it bm] is a part of it. armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi-armenians. henrik] the karabakhi-armenians who have lived in their homeland for 3000 henrik] years (cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin) are the henrik] ones directly involved in the conflict. they are defending henrik] themselves against azeri aggression. bm] huh? you didn't expect azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm] within their borders? well, history is sad. remember, those are relocated azeris into the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime. henrik] at last, i hope that the u.s. insists that turkey stay out of the henrik] karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik] occur again. bm] you're not playing with a full deck, are you? where would turkey invade? it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped into armenia if she could. bm] are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header bm] in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun? absolutely not ! i am merely trying to emphasize that in many cases, history repeats itself. bm] yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes bm] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm] the parties to the negotiating table. that's hard to do when armenians bm] are attacking azeri towns. so, let me understand in plain words what you are saying; turkey wants a peaceful end to this conflict. not !! i will believe it when i see it. now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a gun pointing to your head ? do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef(fat chance)? do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku ? all the barberian acts especially against mothers and their children. i mean burning people alive ! bm] armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm] futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's bm] going to cause incessant skirmishes. armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic. they are not asking much. they simply want to get back what was taken away from them and given to azeris by stalin. bm] think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent bm] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm] the other out. these people will be neighbors, would it not be better bm] to keep the bad blood between them minimal? don't get me wrong. i also want peaceful solution to the conflict. but until azeris realize that, the armenians in karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion. bm] if you belong to the armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes bm] your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm] their blood and future. again, you are taking different turns. armenia has no intension to grab any land from azerbaijan. the armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves until a solution is set. bm] it's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm] craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled. the armenians bm] in armenia and n-k will be there, with the same people you seem to hate bm] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more. the sooner there's peace in bm] the region the better it is for them and everyone else. i'd push for bm] compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading bm] inflammatory half-truths. it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative. i am absolutely for it. but, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself, you will be wiped out. such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of the armenian massacres. 
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 |> typical arabic thinking. if we are guilty of something, so is |> everyone else. unfortunately for you, nabil, jewish tribes are not |> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so |> common among arabs in the middle east. there were no " killings |> between the jewish tribes on the way." i don't like this comment about "typical" thinking. you could state your interpretation of exodus without it. as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological/religious colors. the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. that's why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs, turks and mongols can unify as well. you somehow missed nabil's comments, even though you included it in your followup: the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the jewish tribes on the way.. i am not aware of "killings between jewish tribes" in the desert. the point of "typical thinking" here is that while arabs still today act in the manner you describe, like "any nomadic people occupying a land", killing and plundering each other with regularity, others have somehow progressed over time. it is not surprising then that arabs often accuse others (infidels) of things that they are quite familiar with: civil rights violations, religious discrimination, ethnic cleansing, land theft, torture and murder. it is precisely this mechanism at work that leads people to say that jewish tribes were killing each other in the desert, even without support for such a ludicrous suggestion. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 come on! most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel. i wouldn't bet on it. arab governments generally don't care much about the palestineans and their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home. they are happy to leave the palestineans largely under israeli control because that leaves the job of controlling them to the israelis. the israelis don't like this job any more than king hussein of jordan liked it -- and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands per month when they started an intifada in jordan. the governments of syria, lebanon and egypt all feel similarly. however, proclaiming public support for the palestinean war against israel deflects criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to even the most brutal arab tyrants. arab *people* probably aren't much more sympathetic. palestineans have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in jordan, lebanon and kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere. you might still be right in sympathy to the war against israel, but i suspect that many arabs, far removed from the immediate border with israel (e.g. in kuwait or morroco), couldn't care less. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76042">
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 henrik] country. turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik] karabakh conflict with azerbaijan. bm] gimme a break. capital letters, or not, the above is pure nonsense. it bm] seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities henrik] again, armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves. what do henrik] want them to do. lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them. news reports i've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise. caps don't change facts. bm] while hoping that turkey will stay out. stop and think for a moment, bm] will you? armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it bm] is a part of it. henrik] armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged henrik] training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi-armenians. so? should i, at this point break into caps and start talking about defense etc.? i don't know how 'fully engaged' turkey is/was though. henrik] the karabakhi-armenians who have lived in their homeland for 3000 henrik] years (cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin) are the henrik] ones directly involved in the conflict. they are defending henrik] themselves against azeri aggression. bm] huh? you didn't expect azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm] within their borders? henrik] well, history is sad. remember, those are relocated azeris into henrik] the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime. so i hear. this justifies bloodshed n years after the fact? henrik] at last, i hope that the u.s. insists that turkey stay out of the henrik] karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik] occur again. bm] you're not playing with a full deck, are you? where would turkey invade? henrik] it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped henrik] into armenia if she could. why would turkey do that? do you not realize that this is a local clash that turkey never wished to see happen? turkey has other plans for region, like economic revival, co-operation etc. good stuff in other words, i'd be happy to bicker with armenians over trade barriers and such on usenet rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which i detest doing and wouldn't bm] are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header bm] in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun? henrik] absolutely not ! i am merely trying to emphasize that in many henrik] cases, history repeats itself. even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would be to try not to provoke turkey as was done in '74. if there'd been a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in athens at the time, everybody would have stayed home with their families. [i have no wish to go into the cyprus quarrel, but i suspect what i've said is not only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved] bm] yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes bm] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm] the parties to the negotiating table. that's hard to do when armenians bm] are attacking azeri towns. henrik] so, let me understand in plain words what you are saying; turkey henrik] wants a peaceful end to this conflict. not !! so what do you think we want? war, death and destruction? henrik] i will believe it when i see it. no, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it. henrik] now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a gun pointing henrik]to your head ? do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef(fat chance)? this kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing. henrik] do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku ? all the henrik] barberian acts especially against mothers and their children. i mean henrik] burning people alive ! now, some azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff perpetrated by armenians. one should re-hash stuff like this often to keep the hatred alive, right? bm] armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's bm] going to cause incessant skirmishes. henrik] armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic. they are henrik] not asking much. they simply want to get back what was taken away henrik] from them and given to azeris by stalin. well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods of asking (not very peaceful i'd say). bm] think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent bm] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm] the other out. these people will be neighbors, would it not be better bm] to keep the bad blood between them minimal? henrik] don't get me wrong. i also want peaceful solution to the henrik] conflict. but until azeris realize that, the armenians in henrik] karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion. i don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans. peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening right now isn't condusive to peace. you can spend days and nights raving about how 'right' the armenian position is and i'm sure there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other side. if entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace than they should sit down and talk about a compromise. armenia isn't strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign relations. yes you can type stalin in caps, and give one sided atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to the other side. you personally can choose not to do that of course, this being just usenet. the people in power shouldn't be so childish. bm] if you belong to the armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes bm] your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm] their blood and future. henrik] again, you are taking different turns. armenia has no intension henrik] to grab any land from azerbaijan. the armenians in karabakh henrik] are simply defending themselves until a solution is set. azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps i've seen support what they'd be saying. it doesn't seem likely that a solution will be reached in this manner. bm] it's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm] craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled. the armenians bm] in armenia and n-k will be there, with the same people you seem to hate bm] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more. the sooner there's peace in bm] the region the better it is for them and everyone else. i'd push for bm] compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading bm] inflammatory half-truths. henrik] it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative. i am absolutely henrik] for it. it didn't look it when i read your posting. it would seem to me that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also talk about how one might avoid the nastiness. fair? henrik] but, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself, henrik] you will be wiped out. such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of henrik] the armenian massacres. you don't realize i can say the same thing about 'the turkish massacres.' yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were. let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our kids will also be hateful. sounds crazy doesn't it? don't do it then. 
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 o dr. namaki, deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality (under one year old) in iran went down from 120 per thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at the end of 1371 (last month). dr. cheghadr ba namakand! they just wait until they are teenagers to kill them! o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only 254f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached 93at the end of 1371. o during the visit of mahathir mohammad, the prime minister of malaysia, to iran, agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were signed. according to one agreement, iran will be in charge of building malaysia's natural gas network. yup. iri also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and buildings in war torn areas to malaysia. khak too sareshoon, one of the only industries we really have is construction, and there are all these unemployed youth, and they give money to malaysia to do what iranians can and should be doing. - farzin mokhtarian mash javad 
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 |> >it is not a "terrorist camp" as you and the israelis like |> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer |> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc..... |> >some young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of |> >the lebanese resistance. even the inhabitants of the village do not |> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often |> >suspect who they are and what they are up to. these young men are |> >supported financially by iran most of the time. they sneak arms and |> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps |> >for israeli patrols. every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured |> >by these traps, israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages |> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians. |> this a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups: |> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the |> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or, |> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. certainly the |> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the |> innocent civilians into harm's way. |> are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, israel |> should totally back down? so...the easiest way to get away with attacking |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects |> innocent lives? tell me tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? assuming that they are using civilians for cover, are they not killing soldiers in their country? if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel, is it not working? why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages? why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? you see, there is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called retaliation... "getting back" ..."getting even". it doesn't make sense to shell the villages. the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of |> >if israel insists that |> >the so called "security zone" is necessary for the protection of |> >northern israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation |> >with the blood of its soldiers. |> >if israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from our land. |> what? so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states |> can start all over again? while i also hope for this to happen, it will |> only occur when arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the |> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their |> soil. they have to prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way |> israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of |> tolerance towards "anti-israel guerillas in-residence". if israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, imho, it has no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. |> >i have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only |> >real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace |> >settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and |> >peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure |> >no one on either side of the border is shelled. |> good lord, brad. [....] no, i am not basil. i think basil is a very intelligent person and i respect what he writes. basil is a person that i would gladly call a friend. he is, however, not me. nor am i lebanese, as some seem to |> >this is the only realistic solution, it is time for israel to |> >realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting |> >its northern cities has failed. in fact it has caused much more |> >israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel |> >would have resulted in. |> perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is |> the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting |> against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently |> accept our fate." if,however, you call on israel to see the sense of |> suffering fewer casualties, i suggest you apply the same to palestinian, |> arab and islamic groups. tim, you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed. hezbollah remains the only independent militia. hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi, his wife, and young son. of course, if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't make the lebanese so mad as to do that. furthermore, with hezbollah subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible. |> >and now the lebanese government has proven that it is |> >capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did |> >in all other parts of lebanon. |> >basil |> it has not. without the support, and active involvement, of syria, |> lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred. |> once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain |> control? if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel. tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border? not lately, eh? israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use territory under their control to attack israel. while lebanon would be better off with syria and israel out of its borders, the presence of syrian troops in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory (not on israeli troops in lebanon, however. please note the distinction) in the past two years. |> tim |> your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and |> selectively naive. i disagree, basil has always seemed to me to be a cool-headed person, slow to anger (certainly more so than i). what is most important is that he is an actual witness to things from the other end of the israeli guns. if only the israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were reversed perhaps they would moderate their "retaliation". brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) 
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 on 15 apr 93 03:13:49 gmt, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (hossien amehdi) said: i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering. like i said, i'm not an arab but if i was, say a lebanese, you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means. the syrians? iranian agents? or just israeli invaders? gary bradski i'net: bradski@park.bu.edu | reverberate | cognitive and neural systems --------------- boston university. | v v 111 cummington st, boston ma 02215 ^ y 617/ 353-6426 ^ ^ | i don't even agree with some of my opinions | or die! | i did say *any* invader, didn't i? what do you want from me, perhaps a neural net design with all countries involved in lebanon as its nodes? :-) (you are in cognitive and neural systems) if that's the case, i would put different weights for each country in my 
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 |> |> |> i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel |> |> |> diverted water from lebanon--his imagination. |> |> |> alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org |> |> mr. water-head, |> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that |> |> israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no |> |> water is being used on the lebanese |> |> side, so that all water would run into jordan river where there |> |> israel will use it !#$%^%&&*-head. |> of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more |> difficult. you have not bothered to substantiate this in |> any way. basil, do you know of any evidence that would support |> this? |> i can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if hasan |> had been writing it. |> newsflash: |> cairo ap (ancient press). israel today denied egypt acces to the red |> sea. in a typical display of israelite agressiveness, the leader of |> the israelite slave revolt, former prince moses, parted the red sea. |> the action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment. |> egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been |> denied their livelihood by the parted waters. pharaoh's brave charioteers |> were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the |> red sea to return to their normal state. unfortunately they suffered |> heavy casualties while doing so. btw, does the litani river not flow west and not south? i think that its waters stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan river makes no sense, in any case. the hasbani river, on the other hand, flows into the jordan, if i am not mistaken. brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) 
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 it seems that president clinton can recognize jerusalem as israels capitol while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the parties concerned should decide the city's final status. even as i endorse clintons vie w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by israel (and other participating neighboring contries). i see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from david shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / university of illinois dept anim sci / 220 pabl / 1201 w. gregory dr. / urbana, il 61801 i was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether clintons views should be endorsed or not. all i was trying to find out was whether the newspaper article was correct in making these statements about the president by obtaining some information about when and where he made these statements. thank you. 
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 in re:syria's expansion, the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong. they were correct the first time, zionism is racism and thankfully, the mcgill daily (the student newspaper at mcgill) was proud enough to print an article saying so. if you want a copy, send me mail. 
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 at last, i hope that the u.s. insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again. do you have a terminal cold? karabag is 'turkish' and will remain 'turkish'. here we are, almost at the end of the 20th century, and a whole community, the azeri turks of x-soviet armenia and karabag, is facing forced assimilation, torture and murder on one hand and forced exodus, expulsion and genocide on the other, all because of their ethnic and religious background. and one should ask herself: is the world community really so powerless? where are all those human rights advocates? where are all the decent people? are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing. on the one hand they wish to distort the truth and on the other, they beg mercy from turkiye. the age...melbourne...6/3/92 by helen womack .... agdam, azerbaijan, thursday the exact number of victims is still unclear, but there can be little doubt that azeri civilians were massacred by armenian fighters in the snowy mountains of nagorno-karabakh last week. refugees from the enclave town of khojaly, sheltering in the azeri border town of agdam, give largely consistent accounts of how their enemies attacked their homes on the night of 25 february, chased those who fled and shot them in the surrounding forests. yesterday, i saw 75 freshly dug graves in one cemetery in addition to four mutilated corpses we were shown in the mosque when we arrived in agdam late on tuesday. i also saw women and children with bullet wounds in a makeshift hospital in a string of railway carriages. khojaly, an azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by armenians, had a population of about 6000. mr. rashid mamedov commander of police in agdam, said only about 500 escaped to his town. " so where are the rest?". some might have taken prisoner, he said, or fled. many bodies were still lying in the mountains because the azeris were short of helicopters to retrieve them. he believed more than 1000 had perished, some of cold in temperatures as low as minus 10 degrees. one refugee, rami nasiru, described how khojaly residents at first thought the attack was no more than the routine shooting to which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict. but when they saw the armenians with a convoy of armored personnel carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend themselves with machineguns and grenades, and fled into the forests. in the small hours, the massacre started. mr. nasiru, who believes his wife and two children were taken prisoner, repeated what many other refugees have said - that troops of the former soviet army helped the armenians to attack khojaly. "it is not my opinion, i saw it with my own eyes." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 oy] henrik (?), oy] your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. i'm not oy] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus. good !! go back to your references and read it over and over ... i wish the fascist x-soviet armenian government would do that. well, if you prefer to imagine that the american, european, jewish and armenian scholars were trying to mislead 'arromdians', be my guest. source: stanford j. shaw, on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in 1914, "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey (volume ii: reform, revolution & republic: the rise of modern turkey, 1808-1975)." (london, cambridge university press 1977). pp. 315-316. "in april 1915 dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van, whose 33,789 armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire...leaving erivan on april 28, 1915, armenian volunteers reached van on may 14 and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake." source: "world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn. crown publishers, inc., new york (1952). (memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph). 'the most are inside houses. come you and look.' 'no, dammit! my stomach isn't-' 'one is a turkish officer in uniform. him you must see.' "we were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space.... 'i don't believe you," i said, but followed to a nail-studded door. the man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. i thought i should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and went inside. the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for its stone walls had only window slits. rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot. all looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man's body lying face up, naked but for its grimy turban. he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. the one left slanted, as with tartars rather than with turks. any uniform once on him was gone, so i'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals." p. 363 (first paragraph). 'how many people lived there?' 'oh, about eight hundred.' he yawned. 'did you see any turk officers?' 'no, sir. i was in at dawn. all were tartar civilians in mufti.' "the lieutenant dozed off, then i, but in the small hours a voice woke me - dro's. he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i'd never heard. then abruptly dro broke into laughter, quick and simple as child's. both were a cover for his sense of guilt, i thought, or hoped. for somehow, despite my boast of irreligion, christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would have been. from daybreak on, armenian villagers poured in from miles around..... the women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul. they hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, looms, even spinning-wheels. 'thank you for a lot, dro,' i said to him back in camp. 'but now i must leave.'...we shook hands, the captain said 'a bientot, mon camarade.' and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains. like lot's wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran.'" p. 354. "at morning tea, dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh. deep in tactics, they spoke russian, but i got their contempt for allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs. a campaign shaped; more raids on moslem villages." p. 358. "it will be three hours to take," dro told me. we'd close in on three "the men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," merrimanov said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow. "that is for morale," dro put in. "we must keep the moslems in terror." "soldiers or civilians?" i asked. "there is no difference," said dro. "all are armed, in uniform or not." "but the women and children?" "will fly with the others as best they may." p. 360. "the ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. hundreds of feet down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'djul lies under that,' said dro, pointing. 'our men also attack from the other sides.' then, 'whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. bayonets clicked upon carbines. over plunged archo, his black haunches rippling; then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the spur. armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though i heard our utica brass roar. as i watched from the height, it took ages for djul to show clear. a tsing of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed, dogs barked, invisible, while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle. mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly. the came a shrill wailing. now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. a mosque stood in clump of trees, thick and green. through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot. 'tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked breech-cord, firing again and again. shots wasted, i thought, when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body. but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries. at length all shooting petered out. i got on my horse and rode down toward djul. it burned still but little flame showed now. the way was steep and tough, through dense scrub. finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly, through alders, on smoldering houses. across trampled wheat my brothers-in- arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb." p. 361 (fourth paragraph). "corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, large eyes. she looked about twelve years old. she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. the bayonet had gone through her back, i judged, for blood around was scant. between the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun the next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. he lay face down in the path by several huts. one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. steel had jabbed just below his neck, into the spine. there were grownups, too, i saw as i led the sorrel around. djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro's german-speaking colonel. he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead." p. 358. "...more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north. my hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - christian, red or tartar - coming in from transcaucasus. then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'armenian' vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan... an armenia without armenians! turks under christian rule? his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. that's bloodshed - just smyrna over again on a bigger scale." source: "u.s. library of congress": 'bristol papers' - general correspondence container #34. "while the dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds, turks and tartars; by committing outrages against the moslems; by massacring the moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes;....during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power." source: k. gurun, "the armenian file," (london, nicosia, istanbul, 1985). "many muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the people.....according to documented information, 28 muslim villages have been destroyed...young muslim women have been taken to kars and gumru, hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten and killed in the mountains..." source: w. e. d. allen and paul muratoff, "caucasian battlefields," cambridge university press, 1953, p. 481. "as the armenians found support among the reds (who regarded the tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the tartar population." source: general bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the july 24, 1921 issue of the newspaper "deutsche allgemeine zeitung:" "since all the moslems capable of bearing arms were in the turkish army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the armenians against defenseless people, because the armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the eastern army paralyzed at the front by the russians, but were attacking the moslem folk in the region as well." source: quoted by general hamelin in a letter to the high commissioner, february 2, 1919, in the official history, "les armees francaises au levant," vol. 1, p. 122. "they [armenians] burned and destroyed many turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all turkish villages in their retreat from marash." source: john dewey, "the turkish tragedy", the new republic, volume 40, november 12, 1928, pp. 268-269. "that they [armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population." need i go on? serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 well, this is your opinion ! of course it is! turkish/ azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue. however, i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia's involvement if karabakhi-armenians had had heavy losses. and this is your opinion. it is not any more valid due to repeated capital letters and words such as 'untrue' 'never' etc. read what ? the new york times , that is publishing anti-armenian articles. nop, i have my resources. look, everyone knows how aggressive turks/azeris have been in the past. armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks. so armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly turks have been aggressive in the past? i don't follow your logic. da] i don't wish to get into the cyprus discussion. turkey had the right to not a chance ! you can not convince me (based on your reasons)that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus. i have said that i don't wish to get into cyprus discussion and did not give any reasons for turkey's involvement. i also am not trying to convince you of anything, seeing no reason to waste any time.... da] lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia? i vote yes for it. da] after all, it is now free. well, i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you. i am serious. let's get soc.culture.armenia started and have some peace of mind? deniz akkus 
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 i flipped on my local cable access channel (a channel where any community member can broadcast whatever they want for about $50 per half hour) and saw a "documentary" (i use this term loosely) on the conflict in the west bank. it was apparently made with a hand held camcorder (the quality was terrible, and the camera was really jumpy). the documentary (sic) told the tales of all of the children who died in the "war" against the jews as martyrs. it was a regular sob story. one "victimized youth" was recounting on how all he "really" wants to do is to get an education and that the big bad jews won't let him go to high school. he admittedly spent 4 years in prison (age 13 to 17) for murdering a jewish woman but claims that it was "for the cause." i have seen this kind of garbage before. i have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian cause (as do many jews), but i think that even many arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary! the most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end was an address for the makers of the film named jewish comm. on the middle east. anybody heard of them? they make peace now look like right-wingers. gedaliah friedenberg -=-department of mechanical engineering -=-department of metallurgy, mechanics and materials science -=-michigan state university 
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 # 3. is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? if so, # could you provide any evidence ? yes, israel has nuclear weapons. however: 1) their use so far has been restricted to killing deer, by lsd addicted "cherrie" soldiers. 2) they are locked in the cellar of the "garinei afula" factory, and since the gingi lost the key, no one can use them anymore. 3) even if the gingi finds the key, the chief rabbis have a time lock on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the sabbath and during weeks which follow victories of the betar jerusalem soccer team. a quick glance at the national league score table will reveal the strategic importance of this fact. -danny keren. 
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 i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to accurate answers to the following specific questions. these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me. [ ... questions omitted ... ] elias davidsson iceland email: elias@ismennt.is funny you should mention it, but i've heard these questions time and again, also. why just the other day, a couple neo-nazis by ucla were passing out literature like this. steven berson ucla computer science department (310) 825-3189 steven@cs.ucla.edu los angeles, ca 90024-1596 
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 |>henrik] the armenians in nagarno-karabagh are simply defending their |>henrik] rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are |>henrik] invading their homeland. |>he] homeland? first nagarno-karabagh was armenians homeland today |>he] fizuli, lacin and several villages (in azerbadjan) |>he] are their homeland. can't you see the |>he] the "great armenia" dream in this? with facist methods like |>he] killing, raping and bombing villages. the last move was the |>he] blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to |>he] escape the from lacin, a city that was "given" to the kurds |>he] by the armenians. |>nagorno-karabakh is in azerbaijan not armenia. armenians have lived in nagorno- |>karabakh ever since there were armenians. armenians used to live in the areas |>between armenia and nagorno-karabakh and this area is being used to invade |>nagorno- karabakh. armenians are defending themselves. if azeris are dying |>because of a policy of attacking armenians, then something is wrong with this |>policy. ************ attacking? who is attacking who? even the country you live in,usa, have condemned armenia for it's attacking. and you start to say that the attackers are the azeris????? |>armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians azeris have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were azeris... don't come with nonsence, there is no reason to attack a people just because a man called "gorbatjov and co." gave the "freedom" to the people in this area. |>if i recall correctly, it was stalin who caused all this problem with land |>in the first place, not the armenians. it's easy for people like you to blame history. the were a lot of indians living in usa. there is no reason for these indians to attack the "american" people and say:"it was the fault of the government of germany and great britain, because they made people come to our place......" armenians lived in harmony with the azeris until "gorbatjov and co." gave "freedom" to the people in karabag, then the armenians started to kill, rape and torture the azeris, not only in karabag but also noe in azerbadjan.... |>henrik] however, i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane |>henrik] to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one |>henrik] that happened last summer. turkey searched an american plane |>henrik] (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to armenia. |>he] don't speak about things you don't know: 8 u.s. cargo planes |>he] were heading to armenia. when the turkish authorities |>he] announced that they were going to search these cargo |>he] planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in germany. |>he] 5 of these planes were searched in turkey. the content of |>he] of the other 3 planes? not hard to guess, is it? it was sure not |>he] humanitarian aid..... |>what story are you talking about? planes from the u.s. have been sending |>aid into armenian for two years. i would not like to guess about what were in |>the 3 planes in your story, i would like to find out. |>he] search turkish planes? you don't know what you are talking about. |>he] turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons |>he] to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan |>he] it self, not the karabag province. so why search a plane for weapons |>he] since it's content is announced to be weapons? |>it's too bad you would want turkey to start a war with armenia. that's what i don't want, you couldn't imagine the result of a war..... so france, greece and usa wants to start fighting with azerbadjan???? they give a lot more weapons to the armenians without saying it, that's no secret any more...... i must say that these armenian government is very shortsighted. do they think that they shall move from it's neigbours when the war is over???? the neighbour around will be there and armenia must live in harmony with these if they don't want a "stone-age" country, for that's what's will happen armenia if the wars continues. look, the president of turkey, turgut ozal, died and petrosyan the armenian presindent is now in turkey for the funeral. is it because he liked him? sure not, because armenia needs it's neighbours and must live with these. but armenia can't stop this war with continued ordertaking from states like france and usa. with other words, if you love your people you must think twice..... and i wonder, "shoot down turkish planes" with what????? ohhh i forgot the armenians can't find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned countries..... hilmi eren stockholm university 
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 in my postings i have made a proposal for comments and discussion. those who don't want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to do so. however i would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass in a personal manner, legally responsible for their deeds. i cannot accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and i urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect ps: my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics. it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice. i don't consider that justice is done, when non-jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967 are not permitted to return to their homeland. this can at best be called pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. it can never be called justice. and peace without justice will never be peace. it is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as israel does), is not normal. such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies, such as the united states, in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. my proposal may have drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything, just to compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage.when the day will come and israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society, in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic affiliation of its constituency, such a fund would not be needed any more. i don't mind if jews wish to marry jews and keep their traditions, why not ? but this is not the affairs of a state. western democracy clearly separates these domains and i am certain that american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew. i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized. such behaviour is not good for judaism. 
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 seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms. especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms decscribe. the bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind. they get it from people who call them 'dirty descendants of turks', from people who hate their religion, and from those who don't think they are really muslims at all since they are white. the suffering that they are let us not forget about the genocide of the azeri people in 'karabag' and x-soviet armenia by the armenians. between 1914 and 1920, armenians committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. and today, they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history. aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe-bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers, torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago, writes hugh pope. "i'm still wearing the same clothes, i don't have any others," the 51-year-old carpenter said, beginning his account of the hojali disaster. "i was wounded in five places, but i am lucky to be alive." mr sadikov and his wife were short of food, without electricity for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12 days. they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the 2,000 to 3,000 people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh. "at about 11pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before, eight or nine kinds of weapons, artillery, heavy machine-guns, the lot," mr sadikov said. soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack. some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town, down a hill, through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side. to escape, the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about 15 miles away. they thought they were going to make it, until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak. "none of my group was hurt up to then ... then we were spotted by a car on the road, and the armenian outposts started opening fire," mr sadikov said. azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians, but their efforts were mostly in vain. mr sadikov said only 10 people from his group of 80 made it through, including his wife and militiaman son. seven of his immediate relations died, including his 67-year-old elder brother. "i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat," he said, pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes. "we have never got any of the bodies back." the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire. one hero of the evacuation, alif hajief, was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group's crossing, mr sadikov said. another hero, elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali, said he and several others spent the whole day of 26 february in the bushy hillside, surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay. as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam, there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee. "the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack. some people just kept going," mr sadikov said. "i had to get to the hospital for treatment. i was in a bad way. they even found a bullet in my sock." victims of war: an azeri woman mourns her son, killed in the hojali massacre in february (left). nurses struggle in primitive conditions (centre) to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage. grief-stricken relatives in the town of agdam (right) weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims. calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within 24 photographs: liu heung / ap frederique lengaigne / reuter the independent, london, 12/6/'92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 source: "men are like that" by leonard ramsden hartill. the bobbs-merrill company, indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). (memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 193. "their [muslim] villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country." p. 218. "we armenians did not spare the tartars. if persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course. i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands, and exchanging blow for blow. they had died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast organization: case western reserve university, cleveland, ohio (usa) although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points, i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries. if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your fixation on israel must stop. you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well. you realize it would not work, as the arab countries' treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is. everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'center for policy research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel. why don't you try being honest about your hatred of israel? i have heard that your family once lived in israel, but the members of your family could not cut the competition there. is this true about your family? is this true about you? is this actually not about israel, but is really a personal vendetta? why are you not the least bit objective about israel? do you think that the name of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least? get a clue, mr. davidsson. haven't you realized yet that when you post such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from people who are armed with the truth? haven't you realized that a piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a truth? haven't you realized that you are in over your head? the people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or need them to be. this is not the place for such pseudo-analysis. you will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show some regard for objectivity. or you can continue to show what an anti-israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a pompous name like the 'center for policy research.' you ought to know that you are a laughing stock, your 'center' is considered a joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns, bigots, and idiots of usenet. i couldn't have said it better, mark! 
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 dear mr. davidsson, you claim that your purpose is to fight racism. but you don't seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have been committed by israel. the treatment of jews in arab nations, an injustice of staggerring proportions, is an injustice that you do not seem to care the least bit about. why not? 
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 |> |> are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, israel |> |> should totally back down? so...the easiest way to get away with attacking |> |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects |> |> innocent lives? |> tell me tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? assuming that they are using |> civilians for cover, are they not killing soldiers in their country? if the |> buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel, is it not working? why is it |> further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages? why not just |> kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? you see, there is more to |> the shelling of the villages.... it is called retaliation... "getting back" |> ..."getting even". it doesn't make sense to shell the villages. the least |> it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of |> civilians. if you recall, a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon this. when someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of popular sentiment, the topic arose:"when does a civilian stop becoming a civilian?". if he houses and shelters guerillas of his own free will, aiding them, has he violated his "civilian" status? |> |> what? so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states |> |> can start all over again? while i also hope for this to happen, it will |> |> only occur when arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the |> |> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their |> |> soil. they have to prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way |> |> israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of |> |> tolerance towards "anti-israel guerillas in-residence". |> if israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, imho, it has |> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. but don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways? if lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word of israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy. afterall, israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas it occupied in lebanon during slg. |> tim, you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been |> disarmed. hezbollah remains the only independent militia. hezbollah does |> not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up |> sheikh mosavi, his wife, and young son. of course, if israel would withdraw |> from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't |> make the lebanese so mad as to do that. furthermore, with hezbollah |> subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible. that is not exactly true. the hizbollah and their affiliated groups have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of israel. |> |> it has not. without the support, and active involvement, of syria, |> |> lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred. |> |> once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain |> |> control? if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel. |> tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border? |> not lately, eh? |> israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use |> territory under their control to attack israel. while lebanon would be better |> off with syria and israel out of its borders, the presence of syrian troops |> in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory (not on |> israeli troops in lebanon, however. please note the distinction) in the |> past two years. true, but the syrians did allow (until at least 1984) guerillas to operate in the areas that were under their control, provided that those guerillas were attacking israeli lines. the problem is that syria is also not as stable a partner for long term peace as others in the area might be. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 |> btw, does the litani river not flow west and not south? i think that its waters |> stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan |> river makes no sense, in any case. the hasbani river, on the other hand, flows |> into the jordan, if i am not mistaken. the litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone. the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall. |> brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 ok. my aykut., what about the busload of greek turists that was torched, and all the the people in the buis died. happened oh, about 5 years ago in instanbul. what about the greeks in the islands of imbros and tenedos, they are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has turned the church into a warehouse, i got a picture too. what about the pontian greeks of trapezounta and sampsounta, what you now call trabzon and sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod language, are there any left that still speek or were they islamicised? before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. i know it is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless. if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the greek government? how come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education? do the turks in turkey have so much?if they do then you have every right to shout, untill then you can also move to greece and enjoy those privileges. but i forget , for you do study in a foreign university, some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat. btw is aziz nessin still writing poetry? i'd like to read some of his new stuff. also who was the guy that wrote "on the mountains of tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, i am interested in finding more books from these two people. yeian kai eytyxeian | the opinions expressed above are nobody else's but angelos karageorgiou | mine,mine,miiinne,miiinneeee,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$% live long & prosper | no carrier any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner < whatsoever. i may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole < messages. if you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech < and don't send me anything. < dear mr. karageorgiou, i would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting. first the bus incident which i believe was in canakkale three years ago, was done by a mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards. the pontus greeks were ex- changedwith turks in greece in 1923. i have to logout now since my greek friend yiorgos here wants to use the computer. well, i'll be back.asta la vista baby. 
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 who the hell is this guy david davidian. i think he talks too much.. yo , david you would better shut the f... up.. o.k ?? i don't like your attitute. you are full of lies and shit. didn't you hear the saying "don't mess with a turc!!"... see ya in hell.. kaan,timucin georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu 
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 actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon, or when the itifada began, that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone please give full details if they can remember). so was it on cnn or not? this is one of the few occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army's role in the mid-east. so there is proof for you! what proof. you said above: "was it not reported..." and "someone please give full details if they can remember". hear say is not proof. it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes. yes, like the 700 or more palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers. naftaly stramer | intergraph electronics internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com | 6101 lookout road, suite a voice: (303)581-2370 fax: (303)581-9972 | boulder, co 80301 "quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can." 
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 i recently read that during bill clinton's campaign, he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel's capital. according to the article, mr. clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency. however, during recent talks with president mubarak, secretary of state christopher stated that "the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties". now i don't want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem. all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr. clinton's statements with dates, places, etc. from a recent interview in middle east insight magazine, clinton said that he supports moving the us embassy to jerusalem, but would not do so at this time because it would interrupt the peace talks. msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu go cubs!!! "one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - geddy lee 
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 |> [snip] |> imagine ???? it is not a "terrorist camp" as you and the israelis like |> to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer |> in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc..... |> i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist |> camps". there are however some which come very close to serving that |> purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way |> prior to the invasion. the village i described was actually the closest i could come to describing mine. i agree there may be other villages where the civilian population has deserted because it is too close to israeli lines and thus gets bombed more often. in such villages often the only remaining inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go. but for the most part the typical south lebanon village is more like mine. one where civilians and guerillas live together. they are often inhabiting the same house. many families are large, some have members of the families involved in hizollah, most others are not. that is what is so hard of south lebanon, israel is not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with the local populace. not because they are evil cowards that use women and children as shields, but because that is the only way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army. |> some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you |> describe. not all are. there are a large number of groups in the area, |> backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes. hizbollah |> and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be. hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias. though hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance operation and better motivated by religious conviction. as to retaliation, |> while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate |> bombing, which would have produced major casualties. it may be a mixture of what we both say. sometimes israel chooses its targets carefully. at other times it just sends its pilots on sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the attackers came from that specific village but has no further intelligence. on several occasions israel retalliated against civilian refugee camps, even in north lebanon, just to show that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked. most of the time it directs the sla to do the dirty work and indiscriminately shell some lebanese villages on the other side. i have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions, this is why the sla militia is sometimes even more despised than israeli troops. |> well, here we disagree. i think that israel would willingly withdraw if |> the lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police |> it and prevent further attacks. i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw, but i still contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel's security, since it would reduce its military losses, and i claim that the lebanese and syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any further attacks on northern israel. |> there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese |> goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such |> circumstances, and now the lebanese government has proven that it is |> capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did |> in all other parts of lebanon. |> no, the syrian gov't is more than happy to have israel sink into another |> lebanese morass. i could elaborate if necessary. hmm... here we disagree on what serves syria interests better. i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself. it would be willing to guarantee northern israel's security in return for israeli withdrawal. i don't think syria wants israel to be involved in its protectorate of lebanon. syria is sitting at the negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants to get a political resolution. a renewal of hostilities along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations back in question. |> i agree, only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing |> cannot be qualified as murder, no matter what you say. |> no, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation. i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable. |> shai guday | stealth bombers, |> os software engineer | |> thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. |> cambridge, ma | 
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 attention israel line recipients friday, april 16, 1993 two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio, galei zahal, reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers. the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber. radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the idf and the other civilian. both busses went up in flames. the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement. an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb. according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula, the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries. -danny keren 
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 |> as for israelis, menahim begal begin and yitzhak shakh shamir were leaders cute, real cute. now can you please stop being childish and get on with the issues? |> of many of these gangs that massacred palestineans and became the |> heros of israel and its prime ministers. oh sorry i forgot ben gurion, |> too. i hope he is enjoying his coffin . now, if israelis donot support |> (which i doubt) the oppression and killing from 1930's-now, you probably mean the mass murders of jews in the west bank between 1936-1939. |> hasan shai guday naftaly stramer | intergraph electronics internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com | 6101 lookout road, suite a voice: (303)581-2370 fax: (303)581-9972 | boulder, co 80301 "quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can." 
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 from israeline 4/16 two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio, galei zahal, reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers. the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber. radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the idf and the other civilian. both busses went up in flames. the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement. an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb. according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula, the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries. the arab that was killed was a probably from the mossad so it is not count as a murder. naftaly stramer | intergraph electronics internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com | 6101 lookout road, suite a voice: (303)581-2370 fax: (303)581-9972 | boulder, co 80301 "quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can." 
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 |> that is what is so hard of south lebanon, israel is |> not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla |> tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with |> the local populace. not because they are evil cowards that |> use women and children as shields, but because that is the only |> way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army. while that is currently true from their perspective, it is also worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer from attempts to control the guerillas. furthermore, there were cases in the past of palestinian gun emplacements being situated within villages. the argument that can be made for small arms fire can not be made for field pieces. |> hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias. though |> hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance |> operation and better motivated by religious conviction. as i recall, amal was primarily nationalistically "lebanon for the lebanese" motivated. i think that the difference between them was also a matter of funding and support. one question does come to mind however, given that you claim the hizbollah to be more committed etc... and that their stated position is: 1. no peace talks. 2. no peace talks. n-1. no peace talks. n. no israel if we assume that lebanon and syria are sincere in their desire for peace, why hasn't the hizbollah been disarmed? |> i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw, but i still |> contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel's |> security, since it would reduce its military losses, and i claim |> that the lebanese and syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any |> further attacks on northern israel. bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable than civilian ones, i am sure you can understand why israel is slow to act in that manner. |> |> no, the syrian gov't is more than happy to have israel sink into another |> |> lebanese morass. i could elaborate if necessary. |> hmm... here we disagree on what serves syria interests better. |> i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself. it would |> be willing to guarantee northern israel's security in return for |> israeli withdrawal. i don't think syria wants israel to be |> involved in its protectorate of lebanon. syria is sitting at the |> negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants |> to get a political resolution. a renewal of hostilities |> along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations |> back in question. i agree that syria wants lebanon to be part of its greater syria. i don't necessarily see that the syrians would be unhappy to see israel up to its neck in another lebanese morass afterwhich syria could continue on its merry schedule when israeli public opinion would lead to a second pullout. |> i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable. <*sigh*> why can't some gov'ts negotiate as easily as some people? shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 accounts of anti-armenian human right violations in azerbaijan #013 prelude to current events in nagorno-karabakh | i said that on february 27, when those people were streaming down | | our street, they were shouting, "long live turkey!" and "glory to | | turkey!" and during the trial i said to that ismailov, "what does | | that mean, 'glory to turkey'?" i still don't understand what turkey | | has to do with this, we live in the soviet union. that turkey told | | you to or is going to help you kill armenians? i still don't | | understand why "glory to turkey!" i asked that question twice and | | got no answer . . . no one answered me . . . | deposition of emma setrakovna sargisian born 1933 sumgait emergency hospital resident at building 16/13, apartment 14 block 5 sumgait [azerbaijan] to this day i can't understand why my husband, an older man, was killed. what was he killed for. he hadn't hurt anyone, hadn't said any word he oughtn't have. why did they kill him? i want to find out--from here, from there, from the government--why my husband was killed. on the 27th, when i returned from work--it was a saturday--my son was at home. he doesn't work. i went straight to the kitchen, and he called me, "mamma, is there a soccer game?" there were shouts from lenin street. that's where we lived. i say, "i don't know, igor, i haven't turned on the tv." he looked again and said, "mamma, what's going on in the courtyard?!" i look and see so many people, it's awful, marching, marching, there are hundreds, thousands, you can't even tell how many there are. they're shouting, "down with the armenians! kill the armenians! tear the armenians to pieces!" my god, why is that happening, what for? i had known nothing at that point. we lived together well, in friendship, and suddenly something like this. it was completely unexpected. and they were shouting, "long live turkey!" and they had flags, and they were shouting. there was a man walking in front well dressed, he's around 40 or 45, in a gray raincoat. he is walking and saying something, i can't make it out through the vent window. he is walking and saying something, and the children behind him are shouting, "tear the armenians to pieces!" and "down with the armenians!" they shout it again, and then shout, "hurrah!" the people streamed without end, they were walking in groups, and in the groups i saw that there were women, too. i say, "my god, there are women there too!" and my son says, "those aren't women, mamma, those are bad women." well we didn't look a long time. they were walking and shouting and i was afraid, i simply couldn't sit still. i went out onto the balcony, and my azerbaijani neighbor is on the other balcony, and i say, "khalida, what's going on, what happened?" she says, "emma, i don't know, i don't know, i don't know what happened." well she was quite frightened too. they had these white sticks, each second or third one had a white rod. they're waving the rods above their heads as they walk, and the one who's out front, like a leader, he has a white stick too. well maybe it was an armature shaft, but what i saw was white, i don't know. my husband got home 10 or 15 minutes later. he comes home and i say, "oh dear, i'm frightened, they're going to kill us i bet." and he says, "what are you afraid of, they're just children." i say, "everything that happens comes from children." there had been 15- and 16-year kids from the technical and vocational school. "don't fear," he said, "it's nothing, nothing all that bad." he didn't eat, he just lay on the sofa. and just then on television they broadcast that two azerbaijanis had been killed in karabakh, near askeran. when i heard that i couldn't settle down at all, i kept walking here and there and i said, "they're going to kill us, the azerbaijanis are going to kill us." and he says, "don't be afraid." then we heard--from the central square, there are women shouting near near the stage, well, they're shouting different things, and you couldn't hear every well. i say, "you speak azerbaijani well, listen to what they're saying." he says "close the window and go to bed, there s nothing happening there." he listened a bit and then closed the window and went to bed, and told us, "come on, go to sleep, it's nothing." sleep, what did he mean sleep? my son and i stood at the window until two in the morning watching. well he's sick, and all of this was affecting him. i say, "igor, you go to bed, i'm going to go to bed in a minute too." he went and i sat at the window until three, and then went to bed. things had calmed down slightly. the 28th, sunday, was my day off. my husband got up and said, "come on, emma, get up." i say, "today's my day off, let me rest." he says, "aren't you going to make me some tea?" well i felt startled and got up, and said, "where are you going?" he says, "i'm going out, i have to." i say, "can you really go outside on a day like today? don't go out, for god's sake. you never listen to me, i know, and you're not going to listen to me now, but at least don't take the car out of the garage, go without the car." and he says, "come on, close the door!" and then on the staircase he muttered something, i couldn't make it out, he probably said "coward" or something. i closed the door and he left. and i started cleaning . . . picking things up around the house . . . everything seemed quiet until one o'clock in the after- noon, but at the bus station, my neighbor told me, cars were burning. i said, "khalida, was it our car?" she says, "no, no, emma, don't be afraid, they were government cars and zhigulis.'' our car is a gaz-21 volga. and i waited, it was four o'clock, five o'clock . . . and when he wasn't home at seven i said, "oh, they've killed shagen!" tires are burning in town, there's black smoke in town, and i'm afraid, i'm standing on the balcony and i'm all . . . my whole body is shaking. my god, they've probably killed him! so basically i waited like that until ten o'clock and he still hadn't come home. and i'm afraid to go out. at ten o'clock i look out: across from our building is a building with a bookstore, and from upstairs, from the second floor, everything is being thrown outside. i'm looking out of one window and igor is looking out of the other, and i don't want him to see this, and he, as it turns out, doesn't want me to see it. we wanted to hide it from one another. i joined him. "mamma," he says, "look what they're doing over there!" they were burning everything, and there were police standing there, 10 or 15 of them, maybe twenty policemen standing on the side, and the crowd is on the other side, and two or three people are throwing everything down from the balcony. and one of the ones on the balcony is shouting, "what are you standing there for, burn it!" when they threw the television, wow, it was like a bomb! our neighbor on the third floor came out on her balcony and shouted, "why are you doing that, why are you burning those things, those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their home. why are you burning them?" and from the courtyard they yell at her, "go inside, go inside! instead why don't you tell us if they are any of them in your building or not?" they meant armenians, but they didn't say armenians, they said, "of them." she says, "no, no, no, none!" then she ran downstairs to our place, and says, "emma, emma, you have to leave!" i say, "they've killed shagen anyway, what do we have to live for? it won't be living for me without shagen. let them kill us, too!" she insists, saying, "emma, get out of here, go to khalida's, and give me the key. when they come i'll say that it's my daughter's apartment, that they're off visiting someone." i gave her the key and went to the neighbor's, but i couldn't endure it. i say, "igor, you stay here, i'm going to go downstairs, and see, maybe papa's . . . papa's there." meanwhile, they were killing the two brothers, alik and valery [albert and valery avanesians; see the accounts of rima avanesian and alvina baluian], in the courtyard. there is a crowd near the building, they're shouting, howling, and i didn't think that they were killing at the time. alik and valery lived in the corner house across from ours. when i went out into the courtyard i saw an azerbaijani, our neighbor, a young man about 30 years old. i say, "madar, uncle shagen's gone, let's go see, maybe he's dead in the garage or near the garage, let's at least bring the corpse into the house. "he shouts, "aunt emma, where do you think you're going?! go back into the house, i'll look for him." i say, "something will happen to you, too, because of me, no, madar, i'm coming too." well he wouldn't let me go all the same, he says, "you stay here with us, i'm go look." he went and looked, and came back and said, "aunt emma, there's no one there, the garage is closed. "madar went off again and then returned and said, "aunt emma, they're already killed alik, and valery's there . . . wheezing." madar wanted to go up to him, but those scoundrels said, "don't go near him, or we'll put you next to him." he got scared--he's young--and came back and said, "i'm going to go call, maybe an ambulance will come, at least to take alik, maybe he'll live . . . " they grew up together in our courtyard, they knew each other well, they had always been on good terms. he went to call, but not a single telephone worked, they had all been shut off. he called, and called, and called, and called--nothing. i went upstairs to the neighbor's. igor says, "two police cars drove up over there, their headlights are on, but they're not touching them, they are still lying where they were, they're still lying there . . . "we watched out the window until four o'clock, and then went downstairs to our apartment. i didn't take my clothes off. i lay on the couch so as not to go to bed, and at six o'clock in the morning i got up and said, "igor, you stay here at home, don't go out, don't go anywhere, i'm going to look, i have to find papa, dead or alive . . . let me go . . . i've got the keys from work." at six o'clock i went to the emergency hospital. the head doctor and another doctor opened the door to the morgue. i run up to them and say, "doctor, is shagen there?" he says, "what do you mean? why should shagen be here?!" i wanted to go in, but he wouldn't let me. there were only four people in there, they said. well, they must have been awful because they didn't let me in. they said, "shagen's not here, he's alive somewhere, he'll come back." it's already seven o'clock in the morning. i look and there is a panel truck with three policemen. some of our people from the hospital were there with them. i say, "sara baji ["sister" sara, term of endearment], go look, they've probably brought shagen." i said it, shouted it, and she went and came back and says, "no, emma, he has tan shoes on, it's a younger person." now shagen just happened to have tan shoes, light tan, they were already old. when they said it like that i guessed immediately. i went and said, "doctor, they've brought shagen in dead." he says, "why are you carrying on like that, dead, dead . . . he's alive." but then he went all the same, and when he came back the look on his face was . . . i could tell immediately that he was dead. they knew one another well, shagen had worked for him a long time. i say, "doctor, is it shagen?" he says, "no, emma, it's not he, it's somebody else entirely." i say, "doctor, why are you deceiving me, i'll find out all the same anyway, if not today, then tomorrow." and he said . . . i screamed, right there in the office. he says, "emma, go, go calm down a little." another one of our colleagues said that the doctor had said it was shagen, but . . . in hideous condition. they tried to calm me down, saying it wasn't shagen. a few minutes later another colleague comes in and says, "oh, poor emma!" when she said it like that there was no hope left. that day was awful. they were endlessly bringing in dead and injured at night someone took me home. i said, "igor, papa's been killed." on the morning of the 1st i left igor at home again and went to the hospital: i had to bury him somehow, do something. i look and see that the hospital is surrounded by soldiers. they are wearing dark clothes. "hey, citizen, where are you going?" i say, "i work here," and from inside someone shouts, "yes, yes, that's our cook, let her in." i went right to the head doctor's office and there is a person from the city health department there, he used to work with us at the hospital. he says, "emma, shagen's been taken to baku. in the night they took the wounded and the dead, all of them, to baku." i say, "doctor, how will i bury him?" he says, "we're taking care of all that, don't you worry, we'll do everything, we'll tell you about it. where did you spend the night?" i say, "i was at home." he says, "what do you mean you were at home?! you were at home alone?" i say, "no, igor was there too." he says, "you can't stay home, we're getting an ambulance right now, wait just one second, the head doctor is coming, we're arranging an ambulance right now, you put on a lab coat and take one for igor, you go and bring igor here like a patient, and you'll stay here and we'll se~ later what to do next ..." his last name is kagramanov. the head doctor's name is izyat jamalogli the "ambulance" arrived and i went home and got igor. they admitted him as a patient, they gave us a private room, an isolation room. we stayed in the hospital until the 4th. some police car came and they said, "emma, let's go." and the women, our colleagues, then they saw the police car, became anxious and said, "where are you taking her?" i say, "they're going to kill me, too . . . " and the investigator says, "why are you saying that, we're going to make a positive identification." we went to baku and they took me into the morgue . . . i still can't remember what hospital it was . . . the investigator says, "let's go, we need to be certain, maybe it's not shagen." and when i saw the caskets, lying on top of one another, i went out of my mind. i say, "i can't look, no." the investigator says, "are there any identifying marks?" i say, "let me see the clothes, or the shoes, or even a sock, i'll recognize them." he says, "isn't they're anything on his body?" i say he has seven gold teeth and his finger, he only has half of one of his fingers. shagen was a carpenter, he had been injured at work . . . they brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing, they brought them and they were all burned . . . when i saw them i shouted, "oh, they burned him!" i shouted, i don't know, i fell down . . . or maybe i sat down, i don't remember. and that investigator says, "well fine, fine, since we've identified that these are his clothes, and since his teeth . . . since he has seven gold teeth . . . " on the 4th they told me: "emma, it's time to bury shagen now." i cried, "how, how can i bury shagen when i have only one son and he's sick? i should inform his relatives, he has three sisters, i can't do it by myself." they say, "ok, you know the situation. how will they get here from karabagh? how will they get here from yerevan? there's no transportation, it s impossible." he was killed on february 28, and i buried him on march 7. we buried him in sumgait. they asked me, "where do you want to bury him?" i said, "i want to bury him in karabagh, where we were born, let me bury him in karabagh," i'm shouting, and the head of the burial office, i guess, says, "do you know what it means, take him to karabagh?! it means arson!" i say, "what do you mean, arson? don't they know what's going on in karabagh? the whole world knows that they killed them, and i want to take him to karabagh, i don't have anyone anymore." i begged, i pleaded, i grieved, i even got down on my knees. he says, "let's bury him here now, and in three months, in six months, a year, if it calms down, i'll help you move him to karabagh . . . " our trial was the first in sumgait. it was concluded on may 16. at the investigation the murderer, tale ismailov, told how it all happened, but then at the trial he . . . tried to wriggle . . . he tried to soften his crime. then they brought a videotape recorder, i guess, and played it, and said, "ismailov, look, is that you?" he says, "yes." "well look, here you're describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime, right?" he says, "yes." "and now you're telling it differently?" he says, "well maybe i forgot!" like that. the witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going along mir street, there was a crowd of about 80 people . . . shagen had a volga gaz-21. the 80 people surrounded his car, and all 80 of them were involved. one of them was this ismailov guy, this tale. they--it's unclear who--started pulling shagen out of the car. well, one says from the left side of the car, another says from the right side. they pulled off his sports jacket. he had a jacket on. well they ask him, "what's your nationality?" he says, "armenian." well they say from the crowd they shouted, "if he's an armenian, kill him, kill him!" they started beating him, they broke seven of his ribs, and his heart . . . i don't know, they did something there, too . . . it's too awful to tell about. anyway, they say this tale guy . . . he had an armature shaft. he says, "i picked it up, it was lying near a bush, that's where i got it." he said he picked it up, but the witnesses say that he had already had it. he said, "i hit him twice," he said, " . . . once or twice on the head with that rod." and he said that when he started to beat him shagen was sitting on the ground, and when he hit him he fell over. he said, "i left, right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment, killing someone," he says, "and i came back to look, is that shagen alive or not?" i said, "you wanted to finish him, right, and if he was still alive, you came back to hit him again?" he went back and looked and he was already dead. "after that," that bastard tale said, "after that i went home." i said, "you . . . you . . . little snake," i said, "are you a thief and a murderer?" shagen had had money in his jacket, and a watch on his wrist. they were taken. he says he didn't take them when they overturned and burned the car, that tale was no longer there, it was other people who did that. who it was, who turned over the car and who burned it, that hasn't been clarified as yet. i told the investigator, "how can you have the trial when you don't know who burned the car?" he said something, but i didn't get what he was saying. but i said, "you still haven't straightened everything out, i think that's unjust." when they burned the car he was lying next to it, and the fire spread to him. in the death certificate it says that he had third-degree burns over 80 percent of his body . . . and i ask again, why was he killed? my husband was a carpenter; he was a good craftsman, he knew how to do everything, he even fixed his own car, with his own hands. we have three children. three sons. only igor was with me at the time. the older one was in pyatigorsk, and the younger one is serving in the army. and now they're fatherless... i couldn't sit all the way through it. when the procurator read up to 15 years' deprivation of freedom, i just . . . i went out of my mind, i didn't know what to do with myself, i said, "how can that be? you," i said, "you are saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is 15 years' deprivation of freedom?" i screamed, i had my mind! i said, "let me at that creep, with my bare hands i'll . . . " a relative restrained me, and there were all those military people there . . . i lest. i said," this isn't a soviet trial, this is unjust!" that's what i shouted, l said it and left . . . i said that on february 27, when those people were streaming down our street, they were shouting, "long live turkey!" and "glory to turkey!" and during the trial i said to that ismailov, "what does that mean, 'glory to turkey'?" i still don't understand what turkey has to do with this, we live in the soviet union. that turkey told you to or is going to help you kill armenians? i still don't understand why "glory to turkey!" i asked that question twice and got no answer . . . no one answered me . . . may 19, 1988 - - - reference - - - [1] _the sumgait tragedy; pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan, volume i, eyewitness accounts_, edited by samuel shahmuradian, forward by yelena bonner, 1990, published by aristide d. caratzas, ny, pages 178-184 david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin's whitewash. i have no particular desire to post it yet again. (normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au) you apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause. but you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin "massacre." you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology. at the most basic level, you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding "quotations" that support your preset opinions. if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote." for example, meir pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar, and a war hero. but that doesn't mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold. in fact (and here your lack of experience shows), pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his anti-israel blathering (forget about anti-irgun blathering) would be considered something like treason in non-israel contexts. but of course you don't consider this at all when you find a juicy "quotation" that you can use to attack israel. benny morris (of hashomer hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar" when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun. don't be fooled. it's just the old zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an attack on the (then-) likud government. if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence, you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air. and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence. unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as "scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes. so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing. the deir yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists tell it, any more than the sabra and shatila "massacres." do you get the feeling people like to blame the jews for "massacres," even if they have to make them up? it must sound spicy. even some jews like to do it, for reasons of their own. please, don't confuse any of you deir yassin "massacre" stuff with facts or scholarship. you should stick to begin's version unless you find something serious to contradict it. 
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 if indeed israeli soldiers killed a "hamas mujahid" with an anti-tank missile then i'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile. maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body gets "desintegrated." of course, destroying 10 houses to kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it? ___________________ cl056@cleveland.freenet.edu _____________ (______ _ | _ |_ _____ h a m z a ________) |-| |_ |-| | | foo i.e. most foo 
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 it surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible)! such a story would be "eaten up" by some of the papers over here. so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before! - believe me, i'm not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from... your dreams!!!! i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the stories of the holocaust (including the ones in the u.s. holocaust memorial museum) were *not* eaten up by some of the papers. we just have to wait to build muesums for it.. ___________________ cl056@cleveland.freenet.edu _____________ (______ _ | _ |_ _____ h a m z a ________) |-| |_ |-| | | foo i.e. most foo 
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 i've heard many turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about it.remember the treaty of sevres-as a consequence of being in the axis powers in wwi.the turks under international law were supposed to look after their minorities ie. greeks,armenians,kurds(i must say turk-kurd relations are improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to turkey's neighbours. the turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the germans grudgingly accepted versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the german people).the greeks who had an army there,were there with british and french backing to enforce sevres. in possibly the first example of appeasement the young turk government managed screwed the treaty of laussane out of the weak allies,this was after the greek forces were were destroyed at smyrna.when this occurred incidently, french warships were in the harbour and many greeks trying escape swam to the french warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the french as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships. libertae,egalitae,fraternatae. it seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading. i think that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of sevres. first, thattreaty was signed by the ottoman empire therefore legally it does not bind the republic of turkey. the new independence movement (which by the way, is not the same as the young turks) naturally rejected it out of hand. to say that we should accept because the germans did theirs is absurd. we saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in hitler. second, the sevres treaty was even worse than versailles. it divided the ottoman empire in to several influence zones, had the capital occupied, the economy under allied control, the army di minished to nothing but a police force, in short a country in name only. i'd wonder if you would like to live under such conditions. and for the record, i donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in izmir harbour. before evacuating the city, the greek forces burned it down, so it serves them right. as for being fooled by allied promises, that too is your fault. you did not come to anatolia just to enforce sevres but to take part in the plunder as well. k. burak ucer 
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 hello, shit face david, i see that you are still around. i dont want to see your shitty writings posted here man. i told you. you are getting itchy as your fucking country. hey , and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more. because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my people. and try to translate this "ebenin donu butti kafa david.". bye, anacim hade. kaan,timucin georgia institute of technology, atlanta georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu 
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 are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila? if so then let me tell you some good jokes: there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more. in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place. people die that is all. no one gets killed. maybe also vietamiese didn't die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all. maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. no? what do you think of this ? isn't it stupid to say so? well it is as stupid as what you said .next time you want to lie do it sincerely yours. 
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 in re:syria's expansion, the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong. they were correct the first time, zionism is racism and thankfully, the mcgill daily (the student newspaper at mcgill) was proud enough to print an article saying so. if you want a copy, send me mail. just felt it was important to add four letters that steve left out of his subject: header. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 message-id: <1993apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> mr.napoleon responds: ** there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor **until 1923 someone had to protect them. if not us who?? is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land. as soon as you got green lights from allied forces, you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey. you killed and raped millions people without any reason. of course, you paid the price. mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere. don't swallow propaganda as truth sir. british promised to venizelos (greek pm) that mainly greek populated areas of the ottomans will be given to greece, _if_ he will agree to drag greece in the side of the british during the wwi (because the greek king was progerman). the british succeeded by bombarding athens (1916), killing quite a few, forcing abdication of the king, division of greece into two separate states (north-south), and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous division between greeks for our century.(so don't feel bitter that the "allies" gave any green light because they liked us....) anyway, the british succeed to establish venizelos, war starts at a second front against the germans in the south while they were fighting the war in the east against the russians, and finally the wwii came in an end. after that the british (and french) forgot immediately their promises (as usually). even though publicly they say that they support the greek cause, practically they not only do nothing, but instead, using some usual "reasoning" and other crap rhetoric as a pretext, they gradually backup kemal (who had given now to the british "water and bread" that he will dissolve the superethnic ottoman and contract it into a small ethnic-state). the main drive behind this british switch was the plan to keep a muslim state in the region as buffer against a russian expansion into warm-water facilities. the "greek empire" being an orthodox christian state was too prone to become russian client. out of this intrigue, the current state of affairs was established on our lands. while venizelos and kemal were promoted as true "giants" by the british, since they worked to realize their goals in the region. under the same plan, currently greece and turkey are recipients of big military funds from the us; both they are functioning as anti-russian buffers, while simultaneously both remain good clients of state dept. because otherwise the use of terror of changing "the balance of power in the aegean" will be used. under the same exact rational you should see the cyprus problem. ps: i don't make any anti-...whatever rhetoric. this is the situation in our region and needs to be said. the previously mentioned powers are not anything special; they are fucntioning the same way which anyone else functions all throughout history. so i don't selectively single them out; just they are relevant to _our_ current afairs. 
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 dear friends, i am a graduate student in education at the university of tennessee. as part of the requirements for a research class in music education i designed a questionnaire to colect data for my research project. the study intends to determine which techniques (if any) have been used to teach music for the deaf. if you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to help me with this project, your help would be very much appreciated. if you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter, feel yourself welcome. i have been working in this area for a while (in brazil _ by the way, i am brazilian _ and also in us) and i am very pleased with the results. i hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences. thank you for or time and consideration. teaching music for deaf children. name ________________________________ address/ e-mail _____________________ employing institution _______________ years of experience_________ grade level(s)____ educational background:bachelor__ masters__ doctorate__ professional field:special educ.__ music educ.__ other*__ *if you checked "other", please indicate your major: ____ some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children, other school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children with hearing limitations. the following questionnaire was designed to find out how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf. also, a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music programs for deaf children. directions: read the following questions and circle the number that best describes your attitude towards music for deaf children (left column), and circle the appropriate "yes", "no" or "not applicable", whether you do the task (right column). sd= strongly disagree y= yes dis= disagree n= no neu= neutral n/a= not applicable ag= agree sa= strongly agree sd dis neu ag sa competencies y n n/a 1 2 3 4 5 1.deaf children can be educated in y n n/a 1 2 3 4 5 2.deaf children should have regular y n n/a music classes. 1 2 3 4 5 3.a special music teacher must posses y n n/a an appropriate training in a variety of communication methods to use with deaf children. 1 2 3 4 5 4.in preparing the lessons the teacher y n n/a must keep in mind that deaf children may present special needs in order to participate in musical activities. 1 2 3 4 5 5.deaf and normal hearing children y n n/a should have music classes together. 1 2 3 4 5 6. 80% of a succesful music experience y n n/a by a deaf child depends upon the teacher's creativity and commitment with the subject matter. 1 2 3 4 5 7.deaf children can learn to appreciate y n n/a music but they will never be a musician or a performer. 1 2 3 4 5 8.deaf children are not able to y n n/a discriminate and recognize sounds. 1 2 3 4 5 9.deaf children can not distinguish y n n/a among loud and soft sounds. 1 2 3 4 5 10.deaf children can never match the y n n/a music in their head to a note on a musical instrument. 1 2 3 4 5 11.the most appropriate material to y n n/a start music classes for the deaf would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of baku, police major-general abdullah allakhverdiyev. there was no official david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 yarn of cargo of human bones [1] copyright, 1924, by the new york times company special cable to the new york times paris, dec 22, -- marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in that port of a ship flying the british flag and named zan carrying a mysterious cargo of 400 tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there. the bones are said to have been loaded at mudania on the sea of marmora and to be the remains of the victims of massacres in asia minor. in view of the rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated. - - - reference - - - [1] _new york times_, december 23, 1924, page 3, column 2 (bottom) on the 78th commemorative anniversary of the turkish genocide of the armenians, we remember those whose only crime was to be armenian in the shadow of an emerging turkish proto-fascist state. in their names we demand justice. in april 1915, the turkish government began a systematically executed de-population of the eastern anatolian homeland of the armenians through a genocidal extermination. this genocide was to insure that turks exclusively ruled over the geographic area today called the republic of turkey. the result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of armenian property stolen and plundered. this genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of armenian civilization on those lands. today, the turkish government continues to scrape clean any vestige of a prior armenian existence on those lands. today's turkish governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the armenian people. in the face of refutation ad nauseam, the turkish historical society and cronies shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. this policy merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. a crime unpunished is a crime encouraged. adolf hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the successful genocide of the armenians. turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of armenians, yet... armenians were removed from every city, town, and village in the whole of turkey! armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as "rebels". turkey claims there was no genocide of the armenians, yet...turkish population figures today show zero armenians in eastern turkey, the armenian homeland. turkey claims armenians were always a small minority, yet...turkey claims armenians were a "threat". in a final insult to the victims, the republic of turkey sold the bones of approximately 100,000 murdered armenians for profit to europe. today, the turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. the success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of turkey's kurdish the armenians demand recognition, reparation, return of armenian land and property lost as a result of this genocide. armenians demand justice ermeniler adalet istiyor david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "armenia has not learned a lesson in s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | anatolia and has forgotten the p.o. box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93 cambridge, ma 02238 | -- late turkish president turgut ozal 
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 in re:syria's expansion, the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong. they were correct the first time, zionism is racism and thankfully, the mcgill daily (the student newspaper at mcgill) was proud enough to print an article saying so. if you want a copy, send me mail. was the article about zionism? or about something else. the majority of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really know what zionism is. they have just associated it with what they think they know about the political situation in the middle east. so steve: lets here, what is zionism? 
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 mack posted: "i know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small (at the end of 1371)?" this is not small. a 2.7 per cent annual population growth rate implies a doubling in 69/2.7 \approx 25 years. can you imagine that? most people seem not able to, and that is why so many deny that this problem exists, for me most especially in the industrialised countries (low growth rates, but large environmental impact). iran's high growth rate threatens things like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture, deforestation, and water table drop. similar to what is going on in california (this year's rain won't save you in stanford!). this is probably more to blame than the current government's incompetence for dropping living standards in iran. dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max-planck-institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de -- w gibson 
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 washington (upi) -- a senior state department official on tuesday ruled out any softening of u.s. attitudes toward iraq but said relations with iran's islamic regime could improve substantially if that government disassociates itself from international terrorism. ``despite the name-calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the gulf, despite all this, we do not take a position of permanent hostility towards the islamic republic of iran,'' david mack, deputy assistant secretary for near eastern affairs, said. the primary u.s. objection is ``iran's international behaviour'' which includes ``extending support of violence'' to disrupt the arab israeli peace process and its rapid build-up of dangerous weapons. mack said ``iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area.'' mack spoke at the u.s.-gcc business conference aimed at promoting gulf-american trade. he said the ``middle east will be an item very high on the agenda of the u.s. administration.'' the importance of the gulf is underlined by secretary of state warren christoper's visit last year to saudi arabia and kuwait before anywhere else in the world, mack said. he added that the u.s. has no long-term plan to station troops in the gulf. mack also insisted that the clinton administration will continue to pressure iraq to ``comply with all the u.n. security resolutions.'' ``as long as iraq is ruled by saddam hussein we do not expect compliance,'' mack told delegates. "copyright 1993 by <upi/newsbytes> 
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 final solution for the gaza ghetto ? while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans. the gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks. the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel. while polish non-jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto, no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance. the only help given to gazans by israeli jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance. the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice. a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors. as is known, the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel, although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels, shops and fields. many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel. they may not live there, for these areas are reserved for the master race. the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self- administration. they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. some jewish collaborators were killed. israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators. as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self-determination, it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings. this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews. the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that 'gaza sink into the sea'. one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans ? whether they have some final solution up their sleeve ? i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human, civil and political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings. elias davidsson iceland from elias@ismennt.is fri apr 23 02:30:21 1993 received: from isgate.is by igc.apc.org (4.1/revision: 1.77 ) id aa00761; fri, 23 apr 93 02:30:13 pdt received: from rvik.ismennt.is by isgate.is (5.65c8/isnet/14-10-91); fri, 23 apr 1993 09:29:41 gmt received: by rvik.ismennt.is (16.8/isnet/11-02-92); fri, 23 apr 93 09:30:23 gmt from: elias@ismennt.is (elias davidsson) message-id: <9304230930.aa11852@rvik.ismennt.is> subject: no subject (file transmission) to: cpr@igc.org date: fri, 23 apr 93 9:30:22 gmt x-charset: ascii x-char-esc: 29 status: ro final solution for the gaza ghetto ? while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans. the gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks. the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel. while polish non-jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto, no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance. the only help given to gazans by israeli jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance. the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice. a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors. as is known, the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel, although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels, shops and fields. many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel. they may not live there, for these areas are reserved for the master race. the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self- administration. they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. some jewish collaborators were killed. israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators. as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self-determination, it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings. this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews. the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that 'gaza sink into the sea'. one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans ? whether they have some final solution up their sleeve ? i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human, civil and political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings. elias davidsson iceland 
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 zionism and the holocaust -------------------------- by haim bresheeth the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti-semitism is impossible. zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti-semitism, namely that jews cannot live with non- jews. the history and roots of the holocaust go back a long way. while the industru of death and destruction did not operate before 1942, its roots were firmly placed in the 19th century. jewish aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles in europe. when the hopes for liberation through bourgeois-democratic change were dashed, other alternatives for improving the lot of the jews of europe achieved prominence. the socialist bund, a mass movement with enormous following, had to contend with opposition from a new and small, almost insignificant opponent, the political zionists. in outline these two offered diametrically opposed options for jews in europe. while the bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of europe's workers, the zionists were proposing a new programme aimed at ridding europe of its jews by setting up some form of a jewish state. historically, nothing is inevitable, all depends on the balance of forces involved in the struggle. history can be seen as an option tree: every time a certain option is chosen, other routes become barred. because of that choice, movement backwards to the point before that choice was made is impossible. while zionism as an option was taken by many young jews, it remained a minority position until the first days of the 3rd reich. the zionist federation of germany (zvfd), an organisation representing a tiny minority of german jews, was selected by the nazis as the body to represent the jews of the reich. its was the only flag of an interantional organisation allowed to fly in berlin, and this was the only international organisation allowed to operate during this period. from a marginal position, the leaders of the zionist federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that surprised even them. all of a sudden they attained political power, power based not on representation, but from being selected as the choice of the nazi regime for dealing with the the 'jewish problem'. their position in negotiating with the nazis agreements that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the jews in germany transformed them from a utopian, marginal organisation in germany (and some other countries in europe) into a real option to be considered by german jews. the best example of this was the 'transfer agreement' of 1934. immediately after the nazi takeover in 1933, jews all over the world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of german goods. this campaign hurt the nazi regime and the german authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott. it was clear that if jews and jewish organisations were to pull out, the campaign would collapse. this problem was solved by the zvfd. a letter sent to the nazi party as early as 21. june 1933, outlined the degree of agreement that existed between the two organisations on the question of race, nation, and the nature of the 'jewish problem', and it offered to collaborate with the new regime: "the realisation of zionism could only be hurt by resentment of jews abroad against the german development. boycott propaganda - such as is currently being carried out against germany in many ways - is in essence unzionist, because zionism wants not to do battle but to convince and build." in their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new regime, the zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott. the main public act was the signature of the "transfer agreement" with the nazi authorities during the zionist congress of 1934. in essence, the agreement was designed to get germany's jews out of the country and into mandate palestine. it provided a possibility for jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the country, through a transfer of german goods to palestine. this right was denied to jews leaving to any other destination. the zionist organisation was the acting agent, through its financial organisations. this agreement operated on a number of fronts - 'helping' jews to leave the country, breaking the ring of the boycott, exporting german goods in large quantities to palestine, and last but not least, enabling the regime to be seen as humane and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies, the jews. after all, they argued, the jews do not belong in europe and now the jews come and agree with them. after news of the agreement broke, the boycott was doomed. if the zionist organization found it possible and necessary to deal with the nazis, and import their goods, who could argue for a boycott ? this was not the first time that the interests of both movements were presented to the german public as complementary. baron von mildenstein, the first head of the jewish department of the ss, later followed by eichmann, was invited to travel to palestine. this he did in early 1933, in the company of a zionist leader, kurt tuchler. having spent six months in palestine, he wrote a series of favourable articles in der sturmer describing the 'new jew' of zionism, a jew nazis could accept and understand. this little-known episode established quite clearly the relationship during the early days of nazism, between the new regime and the zvfd, a relationship that was echoed later in a number of key instances, even after the nature of the final solution became clear. in many cases this meant a silencing of reports about the horrors of the exterminations. a book concentrating on this aspect of the zionist reaction to the holocaust is post-ugandan zionism in the crucible of the holocaust, by s. b. beth-zvi. in the case of the kastner episode, around which jim allen's play perdition is based, even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of the real nature of events does not exist. it occured near the end of the war. the ussr had advanced almost up to germany. italy and the african bases had been lost. the nazis were on the run, with a number of key countries, such as rumania, leaving the axis. a second front was a matter of months away, as the western allies prepared their forces. in the midst of all this we find eichmann, the master bureaucrat of industrial murder, setting up his hz in occupied budapest, after the german takeover of the country in april 1944. his first act was to have a conference with the jewish leadership, and to appoint zionist federation members, headed by kastner as the agent and clearing house for all jews and their relationship with the ss and the nazr authorities. why they did this is not difficult to see. as opposed to poland, where its three and a half million jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly different from the rest of the polish population, the hungarian jews were an integrated part of the community. the middle class was mainly jewish, the jews were mainly middle-class. they enjoyed freedom of travel, served in the hungarian (fascist) army in fronline units, as officers and soldiers, their names were hungarian - how was eichmann to find them if they were to be exterminated ? the task was not easy, there were a million jews in hungary, most of them resident, the rest being refugees from other countries. many had heard about the fate of jews elsewhere, and were unlikely to believe any statements by nazi officials. like elsewhere, the only people who had the information and the ear of the frightened jewish population were the judenrat. in this case the judenrat comprsied mainly the zionist federation members. without their help the ss, with 19 officers and less than 90 men, plus a few hundred hungarian police, could not have collected and controlled a million jews, when they did not even know their whereabouts. kastner and the others were left under no illusions. eichmann told joel brand, one of the members of kastner's committee, that he intended to send all hungary's jews to auschwitz, before he even started the expulsions! he told them clearly that all these jews will die, 12,000 a day, unless certain conditions were met. the committee faced a simple choice - to tell the jews of hungary about their fate, (with neutral rumania, where many could escape, being in most cases a few hours away) or to collaborate with the nazis by assisting in the concentration process. what would not have been believed when coming from the ss, sounded quite plausible when coming from the mouths of the zionist leadership. thus it is, that most of the hungarian jews went quietly to their death, assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to work camps. to be sure, there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of destruction: the trains of 'prominents' which eichmann promised to kastner - a promise he kept to the last detail. for eichmann it was a bargain: allowing 1,680 jews to survive, as the price paid for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million there was no way in which the jews of hungary could even be located, not to say murdered, without the full collaboration of kastner and his few friends. no doubt the ss would hunt a few jews here and there, but the scale of the operation would have been miniscule compared to the half million who died in auschwitz. it is important to realise that kastner was not an aberration, like say rumkovsky in lodz. kastner acted as a result of his strongly held zionist convictions. his actions were a logical outcome of earlier positions. this is instanced when he exposed to the gestapo the existence of a british cell of saboteurs, palgi and senesh, and persuaded them to give themselves up, so as not to disrupt his operations. at no point during his trial or elsewhere, did kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those to conclude, the role played by zionists in this period, was connected to another role they could, and should have played, that of alarming the whole world to what was happening in europe. they had the information, but politically it was contrary to their priorities. the priorities were, and still are, quite simple: all that furthers the zionist enterprise in palestine is followed, whatever the price. the lives of individuals, jews and non-jews, are secondary. if this process requires dealing with fascists, nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world, so be it. 
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 los angeles times, tuesday, april 13, 1993. p. a1. new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge * inquiry: transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage by a man who infiltrated political groups by richard c. paddock, times staff writer. san francisco -- to the outside world, roy bullock was a small-time art dealer who operated from his house in the castro district. in reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and amassed secret files for the anti-defamation league for nearly 40 his code name at the prominent jewish organization was cal, and he was so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen to head an arab-american delegation that visited rep. nancy pelosi (d-san francisco) in her washington, d.c., office. for a time, cal tapped into the phone message system of the white aryan resistance to learn of hate crimes. from police sources he obtained privileged, personal information on at least 1,394 people. and he met surreptitiously with agents of the south african government to trade his knowledge for crisp, new $100 bills. these are among the secrets that bullock and david gurvitz, a former los angeles-based operative, divulged in extensive interviews with police and the fbi in a growing scandal over the nation-wide intelligence network operated by the anti-defamation league. officials of the anti-defamation league, while denying any improper activity, have said they will cooperate with the investigation. they have refused to discuss bullock and gurvitz. transcripts of the interviews -- among nearly 700 pages of documents released by san francisco prosecutors last week -- offer new details of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line into illegal territory. at times, the intelligence activities took on a cloak-and-dagger air with laundered payments, shredded documents, hotel rendezvous with foreign agents and code names like "ironsides" and "flipper." on one occasion, gurvitz recounts, he received a tip that a pro-palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for haifa, israel. although the anti-defamation league publicly denies any ties to israel, gurvitz phoned an israeli consular official to warn him. shortly afterward, another official called gurvitz back and debriefed the court papers also added to the mystery of tom gerard, a former cia agent and san francisco police officer accused of providing confidential material from police files to the anti-defamation league. gerard fled to the philippines last fall after he was interviewed by the fbi, but left behind a briefcase in his police locker. its contents included passports, driver's licenses and identification cards in 10 different names; identification cards in his own name for four american embassies in central america; and a collection of blank birth certificates, army discharge papers and official stationery from various agencies. also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads, a black hood, apparently for use in interrogations, and photos of blindfolded and chained men. investigators suspect that gerard and other police sources gave the adl confidential driver's license or vehicle registration information on a vast number of people, including as many as 4,500 members of one target group, the arab-american anti-discrimination committee. each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would constitute a felony, san francisco police inspector ron roth noted in an affidavit for a search warrant. the anti-defamation league, a self-described jewish defense and civil rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on groups that are anti-semitic, extremist or racist. the adl's fact-finding division, headed by irwinn suall in new york, enjoys a reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with police agencies and journalists. however, evidence seized from bullock's computer shows he kept files on at least 950 groups of all political stripes, including the american civil liberties union, earth island institute, the united farm workers, jews for jesus, mother jones magazine, the center for investigative reporting, the bo gritz for president committee, the asian law caucus and the aids activist group act up. the computer files also included information on several members of congress, including pelosi, house armed services committee chairman ron dellums (d-berkeley) and former republican rep. pete mccloskey from the bay area. in their statements, bullock and gurvitz said the anti-defamation league has collected information on political activists in the los angeles area for more than 30 years. they said they worked closely with three los angeles county sheriff's deputies who specialized in intelligence work, a los angeles police department anti-terrorism expert and a san diego county sheriff's department intelligence a spokesman for the los angeles sheriff's department said he knew nothing of any contact between the deputies and the adl. the los angeles police department, which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation, and the san diego sheriff's department declined bullock, 58, is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy drama. although he is not jewish, he began working undercover as a volunteer for the adl and the fbi in indiana in 1954 after reading a book about a man who infiltrated the communist party. bullock moved to los angeles in 1960 and was given a paid position by the adl as an intelligence operative, he told authorities. in the mid-1970s, he moved to san francisco and continued his spy operations up and down the west coast. to keep his identity secret, his salary has always been funneled through beverly hills attorney bruce i. hochman -- who has never missed a payment in more than 32 years, bullock said. "i was an investigator for the adl. i investigated any and all anti-democratic movements," bullock said. ". . . officially, i'm only a contract worker with bruce hochman. that way, the league would not be officially connected with me." bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from communists to arab-american to gay radicals to skinheads, usually using his own name but once adopting the alias elmer fink. "i'm one of a kind," he told police. in recent years, however, his adl affiliation has increasingly become known, and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a shotgun who threatened to kill him. in the mid-1980s, he helped san francisco police solve a bombing at a synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist cory phelps and matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by police. in part because of this investigation, he became close friends with gerard, who at the time was working in the san francisco police intelligence division. bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups. an fbi report noted how he investigated one palestinian group: "bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash, and would share the reports with gerard. bullock also gave the trash to gerard for gerard to examine. gerard would later return the trash to bullock." from a wide range of sources, bullock compiled files on 9,876 individuals and more than 950 political groups. gerard, whose files contained many identical entries, kept files on 7,011 people. in 1987, bullock and gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of information to the south african government. bullock tells of meetings secretly with south african agents at san francisco hotels and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new $100 bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled only from public sources. once he rewrote an innocuous item published by san francisco chronicle columnist herb caen about south african bishop desmond tutu and the wife of prominent attorney melvin belli -- and submitted it as his own work. bullock said it was gerard who sold official police intelligence. bullock said he split about $16,000 from the south african government evenly with gerard, telling him at one point, "i may be gay but i'm a straight arrow." in his interviews with the police and fbi, bullock talked freely about engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to violate the law. for example, bullock admitted to receiving driver's license records and criminal histories from gerard on about 50 people -- a fraction of the confidential police data found in his computer. and he said gerard gave him complete san francisco police department intelligence files on various nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under department policy. bullock said he also received a confidential fbi report on the nation of islam that he later shredded at the anti-defamation league's san francisco office. bullock seemed proud of his "operation eavesdrop," in which he used a paid informant, code-named scumbag, to help tap into a white aryan resistance phone message network, listening to the messages left by members of the right-wing group. "for a short time, it was wonderful," he told police. in los angeles, adl operative gurvitz was hired about four years ago as a "fact-finder" to keep intelligence files and occasionally go undercover to the meetings of target groups. among other things, he told san francisco authorities, the los angeles adl office kept a record of any arab-american who had "anti-israel leanings" or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he attempted to misuse the adl intelligence network to seek revenge on a rival who got a job gurvitz wanted at the simon wiesenthal center for holocaust studies. gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival and threatened to expose him as a jewish spy to a right-wing hate gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the fbi in the probe, providing considerable information about the adl operation. unlike bullock, he has been assured he is not a subject of the gurvitz declined through his father in los angeles to be interviewed by the times. bullock's attorney said his client would not comment. yigal arens usc/isi tv made me do it! arens@isi.edu 
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 does anyone have a schedule of kol israel broadcasts in different languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. your assistance would be greatly appreciated 
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 # > in re:syria's expansion, the author writes that the un thought # > zionism was racism and that they were wrong. they were correct # > the first time, zionism is racism and thankfully, the mcgill daily # > (the student newspaper at mcgill) was proud enough to print an article # > saying so. if you want a copy, send me mail. # was the article about zionism? or about something else. the majority # of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really # know what zionism is. they have just associated it with what they think # they know about the political situation in the middle east. # so steve: lets here, what is zionism? assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just told you, "zionism is racism." this is a tautological statement. --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 oy] ...[deleted]... oy] oy] if you are really interested, i can provide you with a number of references oy] on the issue. just send me email for that. you think i am that stupid to ask you for references ! not ! i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed. i have already read many articles and do not need your help. boy, how generous !! there is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and those of the greeks, and you just said you'd rather do the latter! that's fine with me. i was sincere in my offer, but this saves me the effort. it doesn't take a half-brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources of decent objectivity. just ask a good friend for help. !:-) "stay on these roads," onur yalcin onur yalcin oyalcin@iastate.edu "un punto in piu`" 
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 ps: my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics. it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice. i don't consider that justice is done, when non-jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967 are not permitted to return to their homeland. how about jews who were expelled from their homelands in iraq, syria, jordan, algeria, etc.? don't they deserve justice, too? this can at best be called pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. it can never be called justice. why is your criticism always directed against israel, but never against the arab states, even when they are so much more guilty of the accusations you make? is it because you now call yourself a and peace without justice will never be peace. this is why the "land-for-peace" formula is so foolish. land-for-land or peace-for-peace seems much more just, except that it would cost the arabs something and so is not under consideration. let's not forget that about half of israel's population are refugees from arab countries. somehow, their land now being occupied by arab states and their homes now being lived-in by arab people are not included in any negotiations. is this your prescription for peace? it is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as israel does), is not normal. such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies, such as the united states, in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. again, you've somehow managed to overlook the fact that the arab states are much more restrictive on these points. in fact, the officially judenrein policies of almost all of the arab states makes them resemble nazi germany chillingly closely. american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew. there are many states in which christians can live happily, many which have official religions and christian majorities and christian-based laws. there are some 2 dozen arab and islamic states. there is only 1 (one) jewish state. do you have a problem with this? is this one jewish state too many? there are others who might agree with you, you i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized. such behaviour is not good for judaism. have you just arrived on tpm recently??? again, the supporters of the arab and islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of "emotional, infantile outbursts" which have weakened their positions dramatically. somehow, your criticisms are very one-sided and simple-minded. p.s. how's the fund coming along? jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 at issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and imprisonment in complete secrecy. this was appraently attempted in the case of vanunu and failed. it has happened before, and there is reason to believe it still goes on. the lengthy article you quote doesn't imply this. it only states that it is somehow possible, not that it is in any way likely. this is akin to an article saying that it is possible that the usaf has several captured ufos, without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion. read this: from ma'ariv, february 18 (possibly 28), 1992 publication ban by baruch me'iri all those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way or another: "look, the subject is too delicate. if i comment on it, i will be implicitly admitting that it is true; if i mention a specific case, even hint at it, i might be guilty of making public something which may legally not be published". in other words, they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing. israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or may not have. the us maintains the same attitude about the presence of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft. by refusing to acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships, us warships have, i believe, become unwelcome in new zealand, which has declared itself a nuclear-free-zone. the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. more precisely: a court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of their arrest, and later on their imprisonment. the usaf has never officially admitted to having any ufos, either. in israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of this country, knowing anything about it. not knowing anything about the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison, for security offenses, in complete secrecy. this is stated as a fact without supporting evidence. it would've been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name of someone who is sitting in jail, lost to the world, as he suggests. maybe elvis, or jfk, somebody. let's put it this way: if israel has put people away without publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them, how has their disappearance been explained? people have relatives, friends and colleagues, you know. israel is not known as a place where people are made to vanish. would you care to give us a list of people whose whereabouts are unknown? people who are presumed to be imprisoned? this whole conspiracy story isn't something that we've come to associate with yigal arens before. perhaps from now on, we jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 i understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it is its right to annex it. i can't fully understand why it has to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated before the holocaust (the final solution) by hitler. what i totally don't get is why the u.s. has to subsidize the existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights. just wondering 
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 well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. what i disagree with is your statement that the u.s. media is out to ruin israels reputation. that is rediculous. the u.s. media is the most pro-israeli media in the world. having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured. the u.s. media as a whole seem to try to ignore them. the u.s. is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the what is a shame is that in austria, daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away. after all, look how the jews are treating other races when they got power. it is unfortunate. 
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 armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia does not have pot to piss in it; let alone shooting down modern war planes. 
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 i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin's whitewash. i have no particular desire to post it yet again. (normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au) you apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who so what are you? can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause. but you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin "massacre." i don't think that, you are just making noise. you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology. that's true. i try to learn from people who know more than me, not from useless farts. at the most basic level, you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding "quotations" that support your preset opinions. of course, i have said that more times in this group than anyone else, i'd think. if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote." for quite true, that's why i am so careful in selecting quotes. example, meir pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar, and a war hero. but that doesn't mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold. in fact (and here your lack of experience shows), pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his oh bullshit. fanatic my bum. prove your blah or cork it. anti-israel blathering (forget about anti-irgun blathering) would be considered something like treason in non-israel contexts. but of course you don't consider this at all when you find a juicy "quotation" that you can use to attack israel. how would you know what i consider? read my mind? benny morris (of hashomer hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar" when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun. don't be fooled. it's just the old zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an attack on the (then-) likud government. if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence, you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air. and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence. unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as "scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes. so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing. i looked very closely at a large number of sources. you have no idea what you are talking about. the deir yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists tell it, any more than the sabra and shatila "massacres." do you get that's true about the accounts of both irgun and arab propagandists. like begin, for example. the feeling people like to blame the jews for "massacres," even if no, i never got that feeling. i got rather opposite feelings about people like you, though. they have to make them up? it must sound spicy. even some jews like to do it, for reasons of their own. honesty? perhaps you would explain the testimony from members of the irgun, to be found in their own handwriting in the irgun archives in tel aviv, that the wounded arabs were killed, that a group of 80 prisoners was massacred, that lehi proposed exterminating everybody at the pre-raid meeting. exactly what reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected in favour of begin's? please, don't confuse any of you deir yassin "massacre" stuff with facts or scholarship. you should stick to begin's version unless you find something serious to contradict it. this is very funny. you carried on about unsupported evidence, propagandists, axes to grind, and you end up telling us to stick to the account of the leader of the alleged killers. you are obviously a hopeless case, as everyone can plainly see. 
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 well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. what i disagree with is your statement that the u.s. media is out to ruin israels reputation. that is rediculous. the u.s. media is the most pro-israeli media in the world. having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured. the u.s. media as a whole seem to try to ignore them. the u.s. is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the what is a shame is that in austria, daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away. after all, look how the jews are treating other races when they got power. it is unfortunate. well said mr. beyer :) ___________________ cl056@cleveland.freenet.edu _____________ (______ _ | _ |_ _____ h a m z a ________) |-| |_ |-| | | foo i.e. most foo 
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 i said: besides, there's no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, liberia, angola, or (it appears with the khmer rouge's new campaign) cambodia. non-whites don't count? hmm...some might say kuwaitis are non-white. ooops, i forgot, kuwaitis are "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count. ...and let's not forget somalia, which is about as far from white as it that's two in a row, care to try for more? 
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 while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, "fete"??? since this word both formally and commonly refers to positive/joyous events, your misuse of it here is rather unsettling. they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans. i certainly abhor those israeli policies and attitudes that are abusive towards the palestinians/gazans. given that, however, there *is no comparison* between the reality of the warsaw ghetto and in the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying entity to maintain order, especially in the face of elements that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure. ironically, international law recognizes each of these focusses (that of the occupied and the occupier) even though they are inherently in conflict. as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self-determination, it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings. israel certainly cannot, and should not, continue its present policies towards gazan residents. there is, however, a third alternative- the creation and implementation of a jewish "dhimmi" system with gazans/palestinians as benignly "protected" citizens. would you find that as acceptable in that form as you do with regard to islam's policies towards its minorities? whether they have some final solution up their sleeve ? it is a race, then? between israel's anti-palestinian/gazan "final solution" and the arab world's anti-israel/jewish "final solution". do you favor one? neither? i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human, civil and political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings. since there is justifiable worry by various parties that israel and arab/palestinian "final solution" intentions exist, isn't it important that both israeli *and* palestinian/gazan "rights" be secured? elias davidsson iceland tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 (amir y rosenblatt) writes sam zbib writes no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity. palestinians are no exception. perhaps you heard about anti-trust in the business world. since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions. basic anti-trust law says that, while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing, you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm. you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori . clearly, the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate. they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews. the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality. being a multi-ethnic / multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours was no different, just another religion. plus they paid fair market value, etc... they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy. (i'm not a conspiracy theorist myself, but this one is hard to dismiss). right now, i'm just going to address this point. when the jewish national fund bought most of its land, it didn't buy it from the palestinians themselves, because, for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin), living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon. the jnf offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of it. it's called commerce. the owners, however, made no provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them. they are to blame, not the jews. amir: why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was it because it was sold to jews? was it fair to assume that the fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and jews? it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving them to their fate. your claim that the lebanese/syrian landlords sold palestine (if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate treaty put lebanon and syria under french rule, while palestine under british. obiviously, any such landlord would have found himself a foreigner in palestine and would be motivated to sell, regardless of the price. the point is that the land was sold legally, often at prices above its actual value. it was legal, and good business for the sellers, though it left the palestinians who worked the land in a poor situation. it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted. do many israelis or jews share your opinion ? do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? i don't know if others share this opinion. it is mine, and i'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't the way i see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land, they didn't have a say. of course, now for the sake of the "greater arab unity" the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews (an act that is illegal in jordan), but when it happened, it was just all told, i did not see an answer in your response. the question was whether the intent behind the purchase was aimed at controlling the public assets (land, infra-structure etc...). imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court. my opinions are my own and no one else's the purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for jewish immigrants. in any case, no matter what the purpose, the sales were legal, so i really don't see any grounds for contesting them. 
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 gannon, why don't you tell the readers of these newsgroups how you hail nazism on your bbs, and post long articles claiming non-whites are inferior? # the u.s. holocaust memorial museum: a costly and dangerous mistake the museum is entirely funded by private donations, but don't expect this fact to deter "maynard". btw, gannon's ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing museums and collections, some of which served to educate the public about the racial supremacy of the aryans. one such collection was that of skeletons, and there was no lack of these around: letter from ss-standartenfuehrer sievers to ss-obersturmbannfuehrer dr. brandt, november 2 1942 ["trial of the major war criminals", p. 520] dear comarade brandt, as you know, the reichsfuehrer-ss has directed that ss-hauptsturmfuehrer prof. dr. hirt be supplied with everything needed for his research work. for certain anthropological researches - i already reported to the reichsfuehrer-ss on them - 150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather jews, are required, which are to be supplied by the kl auschwitz. however, the good doctor needed some more items to complete his research: testimony of magnus wochner, ss guard at the natzweiler concentration ["the natzweiler trial", edited by anthony m. webb, p. 89] ... i recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners (60 men and 30 women), all jews, were killed by gassing. this took place, as far as i can remember, in spring 1944. in this case the corpses were sent to professor hirt of the department of anatomy in -danny keren. 
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 sam zbib writes i'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state, as a hostile action leading to war. it was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an exclusive state. if the state was to be exclusive, it would not have 400 000 arab citizens. could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed. and no, i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action. when someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce. it is not a hostile action leading to war. no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity. palestinians are no exception. perhaps you heard about anti-trust in the business world. since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions. basic anti-trust law says that, while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing, you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm. you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori . clearly, the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate. they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews. the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality. being a multi-ethnic / multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours was no different, just another religion. plus they paid fair market value, etc... they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy. (i'm not a conspiracy theorist myself, but this one is hard to dismiss). as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace, maybe. however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state, where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land. living in peace is meaningless unless it means living *with* someone else, as equal. for a native arab, this does not leave many options. oh, you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens? the arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews. again adam, the devil is in the details. i don't want to get on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its ok to return 100 deportes and leave the rest. because 100 is a nice number that you can devide by 10, 100 and besides, it has an integer square root. those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority. if i were wrong, you'd have israel recall all the palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). after all, they are civilians. huh? the people who left, did so voluntarily. there is no reason for israel to let them in. do you actually believe this? my experience tells me that every palestinian i knew still keeps the key to his home, in palestine. besides they often refer to their exodus as an escape from hell (so to speak). i know none that agrees with you. did you sample their opinions? i know you don't care, just being rethorical. israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid flowing). israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained. and how is granting citizenship a facade? don't get me wrong. i beleive that israel is democratic within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (jews). israel probably had a few options after 1948: ethnic cleansing serbian style, and deserve the wrath of the international community, or make the best out of a no win condition: show the world how good israel is towards the 'bad' arabs. personaly, i've never heard anything about the arab community in isreal. except that they're there. so yes, they're there. but as a community with history and roots, its dead. tell me something, sam. what makes land "arab?" how shall i explain, its a contract between the man and the land. control isn't it. the ottomans ruled 400 years, and then left with barely a trace. the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west. it is partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil. i know that jews had previous history in the region, but none in recent memory. i'm talking everyday life not archeology. try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to establish what it is. also, jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years. there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel. there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly 1200-1500. jews were a majority in jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards. does that make the land jewish? i stand corrected. i meant that the jewish culture was not predominant in palestine in recent history. i have no problem with jerusalem having a jewish character if it were predominantly jewish. so there. what to make of the rest adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu sam zbib bell-northern research bitnet/internet: zbib@bnr.ca voice: (613) 763-5889 fax: (613) 763-2626 surface mail: stop 162, p.o.box 3511, station c, ottawa, canada, k1y 4h7 my opinions are my own and no one else's 
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 source: "men are like that" by leonard ramsden hartill. the bobbs-merrill company, indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). (memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 19 (first paragraph) "the tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of ruins. it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi." p. 130 (third paragraph) "the city was a scene of confusion and terror. during the early days of the war, when the russian troops invaded turkey, large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance." p. 181 (first paragraph) "the tartar villages were in ruins." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan : "azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off... 'women and children had been scalped,' said assad faradzev, an aide to karabagh's azeri governor. azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam, some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out." brian killen (reuters) the washington times, 3/3/92 killings rife in nagorno-karabagh, moldova: "journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some of the civilians, and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies." fred hiatt the washington post, 3/3/92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 the hamas way of death (following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions, the military arm of hamas, an islamic palestinian group. hamas figures significantly in the middle east equation. in december, israel deported more than 400 palestinians to lebanon in response to hamas's kidnapping and execution of an israeli soldier. a longer version appears in the may issue of harper's magazine, which obtained and translated the tape.) my name is yasir hammad al-hassan ali. i live in nuseirat [a refugee camp in the gaza strip]. i was born in 1964. i finished high school, then attended gaza polytechnic. later, i went to work for islamic university in gaza as a clerk. i'm married and i have two daughters. the qassam battalions are the only group in palestine explicitly dedicated to jihad [holy war]. our primary concern is palestinians who collaborate with the enemy. many young men and women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the [israeli] security services. since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation, cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime. our most important objective must be to put an end to the plague of collaboration. to do so, we abduct collaborators, intimidate and interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose the methods that the enemy uses to lure palestinians into collaboration in the first place. in addition to that, naturally, we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them. we don't execute every collaborator. after all, about 70 percent of them are innocent victims, tricked or black-mailed into their misdeeds. the decision whether to execute a collaborator is based on the seriousness of his crimes. if, like many collaborators, he has been recruited as an agent of the israeli border guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once. he's as dangerous as an israeli soldier, so we treat him like an israeli soldier. there's another group of collaborators who perform an even more loathsome role -- the ones who help the enemy trap young men and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become collaborators. i regard the "isqat" [the process by which a palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration] of single person as greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator. if someone is guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat, than it is our religious duty to execute him. a third group of collaborators is responsible for the distribution of narcotics. they work on direct orders from the security services to distribute drugs as widely as possible. their victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and impossible to afford more. they collaborate in order to get the drugs they crave. the dealers must also be executed. in the battalions, we have developed a very careful method of uncovering collaborators, we can't afford to abduct an innocent person, because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished forever. we will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after evidence of his guilt has been established -- never before. if after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any doubt, then he is executed. in many cases, we don't have to make our evidence against collaborators public, because everyone knows that they're guilty. but when the public isn't aware that a certain individual is a collaborator, and we accuse him, people are bound to ask for evidence. many people will proclaim his innocence, so there must be irrefutable proof before he is executed. this proof is usually obtained in the form of a confession. at first, every collaborator denies his crimes. so we start off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him. we tell him that he still has a chance to serve his people, even in the last moment of his life, by confessing and giving us the information we need. we say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has been a victim. that kind of talk is convincing. most of them confess after that. others hold out; in those cases, we apply pressure, both psychological and physical. then the holdouts confess as well. only one collaborator has ever been executed without an interrogation. in that case, the collaborator had been seen working for the border guard since before the intifada, and he himself confessed his involvement to a friend, who disclosed the information to us. in addition, three members of his network of collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat. with this much evidence, there was no need to interrogate him. but we are very careful to avoid wrongful executions. in every case, our principal is the same: the accused should be interrogated until he himself confesses his crimes. a few weeks ago, we sat down and complied a list of collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be executed without interrogation. an although we had hundreds of names, still, because of our fear of god and of hell, we could not mark any of these men, except for the one i just mentioned, for when we execute a collaborator in public, we use a gun. but after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator, we can't shoot him -- to do so might give away our locations. that's why collaborators are strangled. sometimes we ask the collaborator, "what do you think? how should we execute you?" one collaborator told us, "strangle me." he hated the sight of blood. naftaly stramer | intergraph electronics internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com | 6101 lookout road, suite a voice: (303)581-2370 fax: (303)581-9972 | boulder, co 80301 "quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can." 
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 /* written 4:34 pm apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */ /* ---------- "from israeli press. madness." ---------- */ from the israeli press. paper: zman tel aviv (tel aviv's time). friday local tel aviv's paper, affiliated with maariv. journalist: guy ehrlich (cherry) units, which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories. excerpts from the article: "a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. it is that everyone who serves in the cherry, after a time goes in one way or another insane". a man who said this, who will here be called danny (his full name is known to the editors) served in the cherry. after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy. his pal, who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry, and is now about to depart for a round-the-world tour. they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service. but in their souls, one can notice something completely different....it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them. and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn't be easy either. yet after they began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking. the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness. (...) a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team, in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry. we called such soldiers h.i. 'hit by the intifada'. under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common phenomenon in the cherry. i sent him to a psychiatrist. but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane ? on fridays, when i come home, my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. the keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that i can go there. i they dare talk to me before, or whenever i don't want them to talk to me, i just grab a chair and smash it instantly. i know it is my nerve: smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. only there i become normal.(...) (...) another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother. it was an omelette of sorts. she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me. i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind. i told her how i shot an arab, and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it. she began to laugh hysterically. i wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh straight in my face instead ! so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails. he shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as they deserved. one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire, with the effect that the arab was burning all over, just beautifully. i was delighted to see it. my pal fired three bullets, two at the arab with the molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. it hit him straight in his ass. we both felt that we'd pulled off next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look. i reached the spot first. and then that arab, blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. i yelled: 'shut up' and he dared talk back to me in hebrew! so i just laughed straight in his face. i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes. then i told him: 'all right, wait a moment'. i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab. i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that. i keep telling all this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight into my face. this infuriated me. i got very angry, because i felt i was becoming mad. so i stopped eating, seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over her head. only then she stopped laughing. at first she didn't know what to say. (...) but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently. i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field. a gull appeared right in the middle of the field. my friend shot it at once. then we noticed four deer standing high up on the hill above us. my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it. we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. we shot down two deer more and went to take a look. when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother. we carefully inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit. we were just delighted by that sight. we had hit'em so good ! then we decided to kill the young deer too, so as spare it further suffering. i approached, took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance. when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in. but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us. this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness. standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like beasts of prey. we couldn't explain what had happened to us. we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we felt the whole day very badly. (...) we always go back to places we carried out assignments in. this is why we can see them. when you see a guy you disabled, may be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. you feel godlike of sorts." (...) both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting. dudu is not willing to work in any security-linked occupation. danny feels the exact opposite. 'why shouldn't i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well ? why shouldn't i earn $3.000 for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa ? this kind of job suits me perfectly. i have no human emotions any more. if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there." transl. by israel shahak. 
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 /* written 4:38 pm apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */ /* ---------- "from israeli press: nazi methods." ---------- */ from the israeli press newspaper: ha'aretz date: 14 february1993 author: gideon levi title: in the neighborhood of hope, among the rubble (excerpts) mahmoud jowara'r stared at me long and sadly: "i worked my entire life in order to built that house and this is what is left". only tv could transmit the full sadness of his face. "you say that we teach our children to hate you, but what do you expect to happen to a child who sees this ?" and once again he wraps himself in a lengthy silence, his face crumbling into weeping. mahmoud stood in the field of rubble that was once his home. the term 'dispossession' has an absolute meaning here. nothing is left of what he accumulated during his entire life, only the rubble of a house and shreds of belongings. once again khan yunis. once again demolished homes. last thursday there was a search for wanted people here. once again the idf forces employed the new method, fired and bombed and shot missiles and placed explosives. already three times during the past weeks i have gone out to see the destruction and each time i was more horrifying scenes. this time they hit the largest number of houses, 17 according to the idf estimate, ten of them completely demolished. but not only that: the method has also become more brutal. three weeks ago, in tufah neighborhood in gaza, the residents were still told to remove their valuables from their homes. this time the army skipped that part; three weeks ago the handcuffed men, inhabitants of the demolished homes, were supplied with some water and one apple during the 12 hours they had to stand. this time there was only water. three weeks ago they were even allowed to go out to the toilet. this time the soldier just gold them: piss and shit in your pants. and thus, last thursday, some 45 men stood for about 12 hours, their hands bound behind their backs, their eyes blindfolded, without food, with wet pants on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their hearts, listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their homes, one after the other. dr. juma'a fuad said al-rubi. the brother from saudi arabia, emerges from among the ruins. ten days ago he arrived for a family visit, mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his father and brothers. on thursday he was handcuffed like everyone else for 12 hours, and later went with everyone to view the destrucion. he tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he is a physician, but only got a shove. like all the rest he also urinated in his pants, while standing with his hands bound and his eyes blindfolded for the entire day. juma'a al-rubi studied medicine at cairo university, and for ten years he has been treating wealthy saudis in medina. his wife and four children remained there. now his documents have been lost and he does not know how he will return to them. "there is no humanity", stated the physician from saudi arabia. 
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 /* written 4:41 pm apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */ /* ---------- "from israeli press. torture." ---------- */ from the israeli press. newspaper: ma'ariv date: 18. december 1992 author: avi raz title of article: moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated, beaten and tortured, omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator, a shabak agent 'captain louis', chatting on the phone with his wife. "at those moments", omar said, "i felt that he was like a humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat me and say, 'you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself' and i understood that he was not really a human being". in late october 1992, after 38 days in detention at tulkarm prison, omar jaber was released without charges. "among the jews, as among the arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said after his release, "but there, in tulkarm, in the interrogations rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being". although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("i sat at home for ten days. my hands shook from nerves"), one may consider omar jaber lucky: he got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns. in contrast, hassan bader al-zbeidi, for example, was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after 33 days in the shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. he doesn't speak or react. mustafa barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation, left it one day later - dead. "we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators", noted dr. niv gordon, director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights. (...) the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf, a 20 year old student. in fact, he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment. (...follow description of tortures....) omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "i do not want to talk about it", he finally said, quietly. some time later, embarrased and ashamed, he spoke: "sometimes he beats you and beats you until you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. even the hands of another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room, and the last interrogator says:" now you are kissing my hand, and later if i want, you will kiss my ass." these things take place in an israeli army detention installation, located within the military government compound in tulkarm (west bank). but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. in early march the idf allowed representatives of b'tselem, the israeli information center for human rights in the territories, to visit tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation wing. "the interrogation wing is shabak property, being solely under shabak responsibility. all interrogations are performed by it", said lieutnant sharon sho'an, the commander of the installation, according to the internal report written by b'tselem member, yuval ginbar, following the visit. major david pe'er, governing commander of the prison system in the central command, was quoted in the report: "there is an ethical problem here - no one can enter the interrogation wing". transl. by i. shahak 
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 i don't know anything about this particular case, but *other* governments have been known to follow events on the usenet. for example after tienanmien square in beijing the chinese government began monitoring cyberspace. as the former director of peacenet, i am aware of many incidents of local, state, national and international authorities monitoring usenet and other conferences such as those on the institute for global communications. but what's the big deal? you shouldn't advocate illegal acts in this medium in any case. if you are concerned about being monitored, you should use encyrption software (available in igc's "micro" conference). i know for a fact that human rights activists in the balkan-mideast area use encryption software to send out their reports to international organizations. such message *can* be decoded however by large computers consuming much cpu time, which probably the turkish government doesn't have access to. howard frederick, university of california, irvine department of politics and society 
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 the litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone. the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall. what did you have to go and bring that up for? now they're going to say that israel is stealing the rain, too.... jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 jake livni writes sam zbib writes [all deleted...] sam zbib's posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a reasoned response. we're getting used to this, too. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 the comparison of the palestinian situation with the holocaust is insulting and completely false. any person making such a rude and false comparison is either ignorant of the holocaust, or also ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite. to compare a complicated political situation with the genocide of 6,000,000 jews is racist in and of itself. 
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 how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries? how many of you know if jews still live in these countries? how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were? just curious. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76178">
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 center for policy research writes... final solution for the gaza ghetto ? while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans. your comparison with the warsaw ghetto uprising is insulting, and racist beyond belief. the attempts to quiet any violence in the gaza strip are just that. the efforts to quell murder and mayhem in the gaza strip were the resluts of violence and came after the violence. it was not an arbitrary racial move like the nazi treatment of jews. jews had not committed acts of violence and murder as have the residents of gaza. i find your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than anti-israel bigotry. the gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks. the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel. it is not punishment, but protection from repeated attacks by residents of gaza. you self-servingly omit any references to why israel has had to take action. apparaently the deaths of innocent israeli civilians do not enter into your equation, a racist ommission on your part. while polish non-jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto, no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance. the only help given to gazans by israeli jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance. the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice. a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors. the right of israel to protect its citizens from murderers is also recognized by international law. israeli civilians have been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis. if this wave of murder does not matter to you, then your posturing for the basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing but an anti-israel charade. as is known, the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel, although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels, shops and fields. do you know of residents of gaza who have applied for israeli citizenship and were denied? i have heard of no such denials taking place. can you document this, or is this more of your stupid and innacurate propaganda? the truth is that if gazan residents applied for citizenship, hamas would murder them as many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel. they may not live there, for these areas are reserved for the master race. how dare you use such a disgusting phrase. how very easy you attack a people, when you omit facts which fly in the face of your pure racism. perhaps you are judging a people to be the racists that you are. do you believe that all jews must have the same bigoted makeup as you? here's another little fly in your ointment, about the 'master race,' for you to avoid... two months ago a plane with 86 bosnian muslims left bosnia to seek asylum in the middle east. four arab nations refused to grant them asylum. then when israli arabs agreed to take the responsibility for them, they were allowed into israel. yes, israel. but when the plane landed, the israeli arabs who had previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved with the rescue project, because they felt that it would make israel look good. it was more important to avoid any good pr for israel than to take care of fellow muslims. israel moved them to a kibbutz, where they are safe and secure. the truth is that time after time the islamic world has turned its back on muslims in need more than israel has. even in the case of the 400 deportees, lebanon was willing to let their so-called arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary in lebanon. nearly twice as many palestinians have been murdered by other palestinians than in confrontations with israel. hundreds of thousands of palestinians had been deported from kuwait, just because they were palestinian. the truth is that your phoney concern for the welfare of the palestinians is nothing but an excuse to attack israel. you are part of the ignorant effort to confine all concern for the welfare of the palestinians to attacking israel. but the truth is there are greater reasons than israel for the plight of the palestinians. to disregard jordan or kuwait or saudi arabia or any of the other oil-rich nations who do nothing for these people, is to use the plight of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of jews, or your hatred of israel. anti-semitism and anti-zionism is not the same as pro-palestinian and anyone who insists that it is the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare. the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self- administration. they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. some jewish collaborators were killed. israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators. your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your racism cannot be disguised. jews had never declared war on a polish people. jews had never attacked poles with knives, or had used the ghetto as a staging ground for attacks. to take something like the warsaw ghetto(the creation of which you do not even bother to discuss!)and the uprising that followed is to degrade the dead, and to show that intelligent debate on a difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview. you clearly have never even read a single word of the covenant of the islamic resistance movement. here is arguably the single most anti-semitic genocidal document since mein kampf, yet it is totally disregarded in your rantings. your racism is most evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation. if it were considered, you might actually have to deal with mideast problems in a balanced manner, rather than in an anti-semitic as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self-determination, it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings. and just how was gaza obtained? do you forget that israel is not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it, but had taken gaza in a war that it did not start? did you know land israel captures in wars, wars which other nations have always started, aren't the same as israel, and they are subject to a completely different set of international laws? since you do continuously refer to international law, would you please say what specific international laws israel is violating? this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews. i can cite 6,000,000 reasons why it is not. current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that 'gaza sink into the sea'. where is this quote? i have never heard rabin assert that he wished such a thing. since you are in general a liar, you'll have to provide the entire quote, with source, or this effort will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications. one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans ? whether they have some final solution up their sleeve ? only you are led to ask such a loaded, racist, intellectually dishonest question. you inability to come to terms with what you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order. i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human, civil and political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings. why do you not feel the same compassion for the jews of iran, or iraq, or yemen, or saudi arabia, or syria? do you have an inkling of what they have endured over the past decades? or, what about the plight of the palestinians in kuwait? or what about the treatment of the bosnian muslims? do you think the residents of gaza are being subjected to what all the muslims in bosnia are enduring? why are you indifferent to the death and suffering of people? why do you not care that these folk are being exterminated? why do you not care that only israel has given any of these people safe haven? could it be due to the fact that it is not israel who is doing the killing? the people in gaza are not being exterminated. they aren't being killed. they aren't being raped. they aren't being starved. they aren't being driven from their lands. they are not kept from receiving food or other supplies. but the bosnians are. and the only country which has provided some sanctuary to the bosnian muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your life to attacking, in the guise of compassion. your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself what your real motives are. do not flatter yourself into the belief that truth or compassion are what drives you. in your case, it is clear that hate beats out love every time. maybe you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born a jew. it is obvious that your hatred of your own judaism is being dumped on all other jews. why else would you suggest a racist idea like breeding jews out of existence? maybe these fits of anti-semitism are a result of being cut off from your own people for an extended period. whatever the case may be, it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to appear to be. when you realize that you can't care for other people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do some good. but for now, you are a fruad. 
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 # well said mr. beyer :) he-he. the great humanist speaks. one has to read mr. salah's posters, in which he decribes jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps promising the "final battle" between muslims and jews (in which the stons and the trees will "cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved. -danny keren. 
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 mr. salah, why are you such a homicidal racist? do you feel this same hatred towards christans, or is it only jews? are you from a family of racists? did you learn this racism in your home? or are you a self-made bigot? how does one become such a racist? i wonder what you think your racism will accomplish. are you under the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid- east? i would like to know your thoughts on this. 
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 in a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (ishaq s. azzam) says: in a previous article, bc744@cleveland.freenet.edu (mark ira kaufman) says: how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries? how many of you know if jews still live in these countries? how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were? just curious. i thought there are no jews live in arab countries, didn't hey move all to palestine? "only the happy jews did not move!!" would you tell me which arab country is prohipiting the jews from migrating to palestine? the last arab country was syria. but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma! ___________________ cl056@cleveland.freenet.edu _____________ (______ _ | _ |_ _____ h a m z a ________) |-| |_ |-| | | foo i.e. most foo 
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 are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila? if so then let me tell you some good jokes: there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more. in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place. people die that is all. no one gets killed. maybe also vietamiese didn't die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all. maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. no? what do you think of this ? isn't it stupid to say so? well it is as stupid as what you said .next time you want to lie do it sincerely yours. arab civilians did die at dir yassin. but there was no massacre. first of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. secondly, the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians. the village was attacked only for its military significance. in fact, a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin. by all rational standards, dir yassin was not a massacre. the killing was unintentional. the village housed arab snipers and arab troops. thus it was attacked for its military significance. it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians. to even compare dir yassin, in which some 120 or so arabs died, to the holocaust is absurd. the irgun did not want to kill any civilians. the village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived. 
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 from _myths and facts_, by leonard j. davis, near east research inc., 1989: [pp. 108-109] "unlike the plo's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the 100 troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance. deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem, which the arabs had blockaded, and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars. snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem. "arab civilians were killed at deir yassin, but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint. the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about 250. in 1983, however, eric silver of _the guardian_ (britain) interviewed a survivor, mophammed sammour, who testified that 116 out of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'about three days after the massacre,' sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found (alive). we went through the names. nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure was wrong.' "unlike the plo's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated. the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops, some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately. independent observers told _the guardian_ that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women." 
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 the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians 78 years ago in x-soviet armenia is being reenacted again - this time in azerbaijan. the stories of survivors of karabag massacre are in 'milliyet' today. 69 year old hatin nine telling: -''my twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. they told me: we won't kill you. but the babies have to die in front of your eyes.'' 72 year old huseyin ibrahimoglu: - ''our turkish village in khojalu town was blown up in two hours. while killing children and babies mercilessly they said: you are turks, you must die.'' 28 year old gulsum huseyin: - ''they bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes.'' are these stories lies? have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming? were these stories forged by turkish journalists in the region? the nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of british journalists, too. two days before we had quoted from a sunday times article. they[british] reported the events in karabag even before turkish journalists. what is more here are the pictures. pictures of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off. even the armenian radio couldn't claim these "lies." they are saying "exaggeration." that means ''somethings'' have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported. perhaps that village of khojalu town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... or gulsum huseyin's 3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach... the massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. the effects of this massacre on karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word. some of the western press', led by some french newspapers, ability to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre. yesterday we gave samples from le figaro. until yesterday's print no news about the real events in karabag were printed. so were the french tv channels.. the subject they considered related to karabag was ''the necessity of protecting armenians against azeri attacks.'' the age we are living in is termed a human rights age. there are lots of organizations such as united nations and csce(conference on security and cooperation in europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human rights violations. international reactions must be made with international cooperation. with support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized. could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? where is the cooperation? where are the reactions? and the intellectuals, journalists, writers, tv stations of certain western countries such as france who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?" where are you? serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76189">
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 if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the greek government? pardon me? "greece government rail-roads two turkish ethnic deputies" while world human rights organizations scream, greeks persistently work on removing the parliamentary immunity of dr. sadik ahmet and mr. ahmet faikoglu. dr. sadik ahmet, turkish ethnic member of greek parliament, visits us washington dc, july 7- doctor sadik ahmet, one of the two ethnic turkish members of the greek parliament visited us on june 24 through july 5th and held meetings with human rights organizations and high-level us officials in washington dc and new york. at his press conference at the national press club in washington dc, sadik ahmet explained the plight of ethnic turks in greece and stated six demands from greek government. ahmet said "our only hope in greece is the pressure generated from western capitals for insisting that greece respects the human rights. what we are having done to ethnic turks in greece is exactly the same as south african apartheid." he added: "what we are facing is pure greek hatred and racial discrimination." spelling out the demands of the turkish ethnic community in greece he said "we want the restoration of greek citizenship of 544 ethnic turks. their citizenship was revoked by using the excuse that this people have stayed out of greece for too long. they are greek citizens and are residing in greece, even one of them is actively serving in the greek army. besides, other non-turkish citizens of greece are not subject to this kind of interpretation at an extent that many of greek-americans have greek citizenship and they permanently live in the united states." "we want guarantee for turkish minority's equal rights. we want greek government to accept the turkish minority and grant us our civil rights. our people are waiting since 25 years to get driving licenses. the greek government is not granting building permits to turks for renovating our buildings or building new ones. if your name is turkish, you are not hired to the government offices." "furthermore, we want greek government to give us equal opportunity in business. they do not grant licenses so we can participate in the economic life of greece. in my case, they denied me a medical license necessary for practicing surgery in greek hospitals despite the fact that i have finished a greek medical school and followed all the necessary steps in my career." "we want freedom of expression for ethnic turks. we are not allowed to call ourselves turks. i myself have been subject of a number of law suits and even have been imprisoned just because i called myself a turk." "we also want greek government to provide freedom of religion." in separate interview with the turkish times, dr. sadik ahmet stated that the conditions of ethnic turks are deplorable and in the eyes of greek laws, ethnic greeks are more equal than ethnic turks. as an example, he said there are about 20,000 telephone subscribers in selanik (thessaloniki) and only about 800 of them are turks. that is not because turks do not want to have telephone services at their home and businesses. he said that greek government changed the election law just to keep him out of the parliament as an independent representative and they stated this fact openly to him. while there is no minimum qualification requirement for parties in terms of receiving at least 3% of the votes, they imposed this requirement for the independent parties, including the turkish candidates. ahmet was born in a small village at gumulcine (komotini), greece 1947. he earned his medical degree at university of thessaloniki in 1974. he served in the greek military as an infantryman. in 1985 he got involved with community affairs for the first time by collecting 15,000 signatures to protest the unjust implementation of laws against ethnic turks. in 1986, he was arrested by the police for collecting signatures. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 tim, you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed. hezbollah remains the only independent militia. hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi, his wife, and young son. of course, if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't make the lebanese so mad as to do that. furthermore, with hezbollah subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible. just to address this one point, what about the two katyusha rocket attacks made within lebanon, for which fatah claimed responsibility. i didn't realize that one can use katyushas while onr is disarmed. also, page 8 of today's new york times, faisal saleh, a high ranking fatah official, and his 9 month old son were gunned down in beirut by members of abu nidal. there have been 46 assasination attempts in 1993 alone in the fued between these two factions, resulting in 11 deaths. 
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 does anyone have a schedule of kol israel broadcasts in different languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. your assistance would be greatly appreciated try thr rec.radio.shortwave newsgroup. 
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 he-he. the great humanist speaks. one has to read mr. salah's posters, in which he decribes jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps promising the "final battle" between muslims and jews (in which the stons and the trees will "cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved. -danny keren. don't worry, danny, every blatantly violent and abusive posting made by hamzah is immediately forwarded to the operator of the system in which he has an account. i'd imagine they have quite a file started on this fruitcake--and have already indicated that they have rules governing racist and threatening use of their resources. i'd imagine he'll be out of our hair in a short while. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76198">
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 i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events. i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany. it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda. since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either arab or palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? the only way to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76201">
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 armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 azeri people. on the contrary, armenians will get away with the genocide of 204,000 azeri people. armenians already got away with raping, torturing, and massacering millions of innocent moslem peoples of eastern anatolia. not this time, enis. furthermore, a new generation has risen - equipped with a deep sense of commitment, politically mature and conscious, who determinedly pursue the turkish cause, through all necessary means, ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle. in other words, what we have is a demand from the fascist government of x-soviet armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our "the crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the muslim population in the soviet republic of armenia, karabag, bosnia and herzegovina is an 'islamic holocaust' comparable to the extermination of 2.5 million muslims by the armenian government during the wwi and of over 6 million european jews during the wwii." (tovfik kasimov - azeri leader - september 25, 1992) "today's ethnic cleansing policies by the serbian dictatorship against croatians and muslims of yugoslavia, as well as the soviet republic of armenia's against the muslim population of neighboring azerbaijan, are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the armenian government 78 years ago against the turkish and kurdish muslims and sephardic jews living in these lands." (cebbar leygara - kurdish leader - october 13, 1992) serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 then repeat everything i said before with the word "race-related" substituted for "racist". all that changes is the phrasing; complaining that i used the wrong word is a quibble. well, your armenian grandparents were fascist. as early as 1934, k. s. papazian asserted in 'patriotism perverted' that the armenians 'lean toward fascism and hitlerism.'[1] at that time, he could not have foreseen that the armenians would actively assume a pro-german stance and even collaborate in world war ii. his book was dealing with the armenian genocide of turkish population of eastern anatolia. however, extreme rightwing ideological tendencies could be observed within the dashnagtzoutune long before the outbreak of the second world war. in 1936, for example, o. zarmooni of the 'tzeghagrons' was quoted in the 'hairenik weekly:' "the race is force: it is treasure. if we follow history we shall see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to the race after becoming a nation. today germany and italy are strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race. on the other hand, russia is comparatively weak because she is bereft of social sanctities."[2] [1] k. s. papazian, 'patriotism perverted,' (boston, baikar press 1934), preface. [2] 'hairenik weekly,' friday, april 10, 1936, 'the race is our refuge' by o. zarmooni. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 after having read this group for some time, i am appalled at its lack of scholarship, its fuzzy-thinking, reliance on obsessed and obnoxious posters well, these are armenian and jewish scholars, not me. denying the obvious? source: hovannisian, richard g.: armenia on the road to independence, 1918. university of california press (berkeley and los angeles), 1967, p. 13. "the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. the estimated population of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) moslem. of the latter group, 1,140,000 were tatars. paradoxically, barely one-third of transcaucasia's armenians lived in the erevan guberniia, where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. erevan uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 armenians as compared to 68,000 moslems. by the time of the russian census of 1897, however, the armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000 inhabitants. this impressive change in the province's ethnic character notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic, a solid block of 370,000 tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts, from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia." (see also map 1. historic armenia and map 4. administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia). in 1920, '0' percent turk. "we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. our troops surrounded village after village. little resistance was offered. our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. some of the tartars escaped of course. they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey. the rest were killed. and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages. they are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead." ohanus appressian "men are like that" p. 202. "in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul. it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves. it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land." (sahak melkonian - 1920 - "preserving the armenian purity") <1993apr24.042427.29323@walter.bellcore.com> ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (daniel dusan chukurov 21324) the world's inaction when the conflict began over the mostly christian armenian enclave inside muslim azerbaijan might have encouraged the conflict in bosnia-herzegovina, said the moscow-based activist, who's part armenian. no kidding. the armenians tore apart the ottoman empire's eastern provinces, massacred 2.5 million defenseless turkish women, children and elderly people, burned thousands of turkish and kurdish villages and exterminated the entire turkish population of the armenian dictatorship between 1914-1920. such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today in armenia brings a depth and verification to the turkish genocide that is hard to match. a hundred years ago armenians again thought they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. several armenian terror groups like asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent turks and their families in the united states and europe. it seems that they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-soviet armenia a merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small azeri town of khojali (pop. 6000) in karabagh, azerbaijan, is reported to have taken place on the night of feb. 28 under a coordinated military operation of the 366th mechanized division of the cis army and the armenian insurgents. close to 1000 people are reported to have been massacred. elderly and children were not spared. many were badly beaten and shot at close range. a sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed the azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped armenian insurgency. the neighboring azeri city of aghdam outside of the karabagh region has come under heavy armenian artillery shelling. city hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant were killed. azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 danny rubenstein, an israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight (wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in israel. he is speaking at hillel on the u.c. berkeley campus. -adam schwartz adams@robotics.berkeley.edu 
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 from israel line, thursday, april 22, 1993: today's ha'aretz reports that three women were injured when a katyusha rocket fell in the center of their community. the rocket was one of several dozen fired at the communities of the galilee in northern israel yesterday by the terrorist hizbullah organization [...] congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance! with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel's occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life. apparently, the hizbollah were encouraged by brad's cheers (good job, brad). someone forgot to tell them, though, that brad asks them to place only israeli _sons_ in the grave, not daughters. paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee, they justify israel's holding to the security zone. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76210">
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 (a.k.a. serdar argic, the merciful and compassionate) [serdar argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.] where can i join the serdar argic fan club? do i get a t-shirt? --the friendly neighborhood alien-- life just hasn't been the same since david koresh died... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76211">
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 in a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (tim clock) says: i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events. i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany. it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda. since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either arab or palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o.t. but, as most people used to see on tv, the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o.t. the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. so, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine. they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine. to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*. anas omran 
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 i understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it is its right to annex it. i can't fully understand why it has to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated before the holocaust (the final solution) by hitler. what i totally don't get is why the u.s. has to subsidize the existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights. just wondering seems that you're more "just misinformed" than "just wondering." the comparison you're making is not just totally off base, but offensive to all sane people. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 # well said mr. beyer :) he-he. the great humanist speaks. one has to read mr. salah's posters, in which he decribes jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps promising the "final battle" between muslims and jews (in which the stons and the trees will "cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved. humanist, or sub-humanist? :-) alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 # so steve: lets here, what is zionism? assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just told you, "zionism is racism." this is a tautological statement. i think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading." alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 would you tell me which arab country is prohipiting the jews from migrating to palestine? the last arab country was syria. but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma! as usual, when salah is not totally racist, she manages to get virtually all the facts wrong. assad pledged to allow jews to leave syria, but not to go to israel. unfortunately, not all of them have escaped yet, but not because they don't want to leave; rather, assad went back on his word and stopped issuing travel permits. he claimed bureaucratic snags, but everyone knows it was a tactic to pressure israel. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 in a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (tim clock) says: i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events. i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany. it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda. since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either arab or palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o.t. but, as most people used to see on tv, the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o.t. the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. anas, of course ! the yahud needed blood for the matza. after all, passover *was* last month :-) why don't you give us your national geographic travelogue of your recent trip to "palestine" ? or are you too disappointed by what you saw ? :-) backon@vms.huji.ac.il so, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine. they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine. to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*. anas omran 
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 the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. eh???? could you please give me details about an event where a "neutral observer" was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier? --amos --amos shapira (jumper extraordinaire) | "it is true that power corrupts, c.s. system group, hebrew university, | but absolute power is better!" jerusalem 91904, israel | amoss@cs.huji.ac.il | -- the demon to his son 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76220">
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 the u.s. holocaust memorial museum: a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j. o'keefe hard by the washington monument, within clear view of the jefferson memorial, an easy stroll down the mall to the majestic lincoln memorial, has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the united states of america, a costly and dangerous mistake. on ground where no monument yet marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of americans of all races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false version of the ordeal in europe during world war ii, of non-american members of a minority, sectarian group. now, in the deceptive guise of tolerance, the united states holocaust memorial museum begins a propaganda campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the american taxpayer, in the interests of israel and its adherents in america. after reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash. the ny times reported on april 18, 1993 that the museum "was built through private contributions on federal land". your hate-mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content and social value. down the toilet it goes..... jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 |> final solution for the gaza ghetto ? |> while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they |> repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and |> attempt to starve the gazans. |> the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and |> their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers. groups like hamas |> and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all |> jews into the sea. perhaps, we should persuade jewish people to help |> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal. |> maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative jews. |> is that what you are counting on, elias - the pity of murderers. |> you say your mother was jewish. how ashamed she must be of her son. i |> am sorry, mrs. davidsson. |> harry. o.k., its my turn: driving the jews into the sea ?! i am sick and tired of this 'driving the jews into the sea' sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo; it simply can't be proven as part of their plan ! (pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith) what hamas and islamic jihad believe in, as far as i can get from the arab media, is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law. this would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its (mostly muslim) inhabitants. however, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice. as for the plo, i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat's mind. although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super-power in the region, the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state : religion. 
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 the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. eh???? could you please give me details about an event where a "neutral observer" was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier? --amos actually, i'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale behind the recent murder of ian feinberg (?) in gaza. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 the comparison of the palestinian situation with the holocaust is insulting and completely false. any person making such a rude and false comparison is either ignorant of the holocaust, or also ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite. to compare a complicated political situation with the genocide of 6,000,000 jews is racist in and of itself. first of all i never said the holocaust. i said before the holocaust. i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). what i resent is ignorant statements that call people names when they disagree with your position. opposing the atrocities commited by the israeli governement hardly qualifies as anti-semitism. if you think name calling is a valid form of argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. 
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 since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either arab or palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? the only way to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*. first let me correct myself in that it was goerbels and not goering (airforce) who ran the nazi propaganda machine. i agree that arab news sources are also inherently biased. but i believe the statement i was reacting to was that since the american accounts of events are not fully like the israeli accounts, the americans are biased. i just thought that the israelis had more motivation for bias. the un has tried many times to condemn israel for its gross violation of human rights. however the us has vetoed most such attempts. it is interesting to note that the u.s. is often the only country opposing such condemnation (well the u.s. and israel). it is also interesting to note that that means other western countries realize these human rights violations. so maybe there are human rights violations going on after all. 
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 aryans who do not base their reasoning on nazi ideology are racists... thus spoke an american citizen in the name of judaism. if this is judaism, i think judaism should be combatted as any extremist and dangerous i suspect however that martin buber, albert einstein and other jewish scholars would have rather converted to christianity than stay jews, if they would have perceived judaism as such a perverted philosophy. those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism, should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi, who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo. his latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo-nazism. 
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 i must say i was appalled by the american jewish council's open letter. america is not the world's policeman. we cannot and should not take it upon ourselves to solve the problems of the entire world. america's young men and women should not be sent to yugoslavia, period. if people feel strongly enough, let them go as individuals to fight alongside the butchers of their we have a volunteer army. the argument you gave only applies if we have a sorry, i misread your remark about young men and women. (though i am now unsure what that sentence does mean.) furthermore, people do not become butchers by _being_ "ethnic cleansed". or do you automatically call them butchers because they are muslim? i am disappointed in your logic, especially coming from a stalwart of sci.skeptic. you implied that anyone who wants to send troops to bosnia wants to do so to help the "butchers of their choice". since the primary targets of help are muslim victims of "ethnic cleansing", you imply that such muslim victims are 1) people become butchers by butchering. there have been atrocities on all this implies both sides are equal. true, it may sometimes be difficult or impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that victims do not exist. would you, in wwii have said that there were atrocities on the sides of both the jews and the germans? these people have been butchering each other for centuries. when one side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop. yes, but both sides want different things. the muslims chiefly want to not be "ethnic cleansed". the serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the muslims. it is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the things that the two sides want are not equivalent. 2) quite an impressive leap of reasoning to assume that i am so racist as to call someone a butcher because they are muslim. in fact, i think on the contrary, the media fixation on this war, as opposed to the dozens upon dozens of civil wars which have been fought in the recent past is because these are white people, in europe. when atrocities occur in the third world, there is not as much news coverage, and not nearly the same level of outrage. i recall, before we did anything for somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to bosnia than to somalia was because the somalis are third-worlders who americans consider unworthy of help. they suddenly shut up when the us decided to send troops to the opposite place than that predicted by the theory. for that matter, this theory of yours suggests that americans should want to help the serbs. after all, they're christian, and the muslims are not. if the desire to intervene in bosnia is based on racism against people that are less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us? especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think? "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 [i complained about the us taking the point in bosnia, when the europeans should be doing it] [ken says the bosnians are morally superior to the serbians...] this implies both sides are equal. true, it may sometimes be difficult or impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that victims do not exist. yes, victims exist. there are a staggering number of victims in the world and more each day. i think on balance, intervention would create more victims, including american ones. since the first responsibility of the us government is to protect americans, i think they serve that role best by staying away from bosnia and other regional conflicts. would you, in wwii have said that there were atrocities on the sides of both the jews and the germans? of course not. the jews were not trying to carve a territory out of germany either, and except for small-scale resistance and a few larger uprisings, did not have an army or a government. these people have been butchering each other for centuries. when one side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop. yes, but both sides want different things. the muslims chiefly want to not be "ethnic cleansed". the serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the muslims. it is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the things that the two sides want are not equivalent. i see the pattern of atrocities as a fairly often practiced tactic of a colonizing power - driving away and/or eliminating the population of an area they want to control. the us tried basically that in vietnam, the iraqis in kuwait, the israelis in palestine, south africa, etc, etc, etc. it sucks, it's ugly, and it's saddening. but it is not genocide. it is not my impression that the serbs want to eliminate every muslim in yugoslavia. i still say the bosnians are getting their asses kicked; they should surrender and evacuate the areas they can't hold. [i said the fixation on bosnia is due to it being in a european country, rather than the third world] i recall, before we did anything for somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to bosnia than to somalia was because the somalis are third-worlders who americans consider unworthy of help. they suddenly shut up when the us decided to send troops to the opposite place than that predicted by the theory. i am a staunch republican, btw. the irony of arguing against military intervention with arguments based on vietnam has not escaped me. i was opposed to us intervention in somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was not nearly as risky. for that matter, this theory of yours suggests that americans should want to help the serbs. after all, they're christian, and the muslims are not. if the desire to intervene in bosnia is based on racism against people that are less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us? especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think? well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story. good for business, don't you know. and btw, not "everyone" wants to help the side that is less like us. i never said the two sides were morally equivalent, i said neither one is there are just too many good reasons to stay away: 1) the europeans are perfectly able to deal with this dispute on their borders in any way we do it. put another way, we have no assistance to offer the europeans which they do not already possess themselves. it is not good to promote the idea in anyone's mind that the united states is responsible for cleaning up every bloody mess in the world. 2) clinton is not the man to lead this country into a military adventure. full 3) it is by no means clear what intervention would accomplish, nor that it would necessarily help the victims. it is not clear what the goal is and at what point any commitment could be ended. 
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 are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was yugoslavia, including bosnia, which guarantees massive military superiority of serbian forces and does not allow the bosnians to try to defend themselves? should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then? ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all. right. we'll probably end up giving them weapons. if the europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome as far as i'm concerned. you seem to oppose ending the embargo. you know, it is difficult for europeans to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place. during wwii, the british managed to supply arms to the yugoslavs despite german occupation. if the europeans had the will to do anything besides sponsoring peace conferences, they would have no problem putting any kind of weapon they wanted into bosnia. i guess i would favor ending the embargo if the congress would pass a law forbidding export of us military supplies to yugoslavia, including via third parties. until then the risks of the us being drawn into a more active role would be too great. i do not see the arms embargo as a major factor in the outcome of the war. i do not automatically accept the argument that bosnia is any worse than other recent civil wars, say vietnam for instance. the difference is it is happening to white people inside europe, with lots of tv coverage. but if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't all us racist americans be favoring the good christians (serbs) instead of the non-christians we really seem to favor? both sides are certainly not equal in the eyes of the press. and that's about all we have to go on, isn't it? and i wish you'd quit hurling words like racist around. there are many levels at which people react to what they see. at the most fundamental level, you do not have to consciously recognize the racial element - you simply tend to empathize more with people who are like yourself. as far preferring christian over moslem, i am an atheist myself, and i think you'll agree that in the us, the majority of people do not typically discriminate on the basis of religion, nor give it a particularly important place in their world view. 
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 (soner yamen) responded to article <1r20kr$m9q@nic.umass.edu> burak@ucsvax. [afs] just a quick comment:: [afs] [afs] armenians killed turks------turks killed armenians. [afs] [afs] simple as that. can anybody deny these facts? jews killed germans in wwii -- germans killed jews in wwii, but there was quite a difference in these two statements, regardless of what nazi revisionists say! [sy] my grand parents were living partly in todays armenia and partly in [sy] todays georgia. there were villages, kurd/turk (different turkic groups) [sy] georgian (muslim/christian) armenian and farsi... very near to eachother. [sy] the people living there were aware of their differences. they were [sy] different people. for example, my grandfather would not have been happy [sy] if his doughter had willed to marry an armenian guy. but that did not [sy] mean that they were willing to kill eachother. no! they were neighbors. [sy] armenians killed turks. which armenians? their neoghbors? as far as my [sy] grandparents are concerned, the armenians attacked first but these [sy] armenians were not their neighbors. they came from other places. maybe [sy] first they had a training at some place. they were taught to kill people, [sy] to hate turks/kurds? it seems so... there is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the armenians of eastern turkey beginning in 1915, with that of the armeno- georgian conflicts of late 1918! the argument is not whether armenians ever killed in their collective existence, but rather the wholesale destruction of anatolian armenians under orders of the turkish government. an armenian- georgian dispute over the disposition of akhalkalak, lori, and pambak after the turkish third army evacuated the region, cannot be equated with the extermination of anatolian armenians. many armenians and georgians died in this area in the scramble to re-occupy these lands and the lack of preparation for the winter months. this is not the same as the turkish genocide of the armenians nearly four years earlier, hundreds of kilometers away! [sy] anyway, but after they killed/raped/... turks and other muslim people [sy] around, people assumed that 'armenians killed us, raped our women', [sy] not a particular group of people trained in some camps, maybe backed [sy] by some powerful states... after that step, you cannot explain these [sy] people not to hate all armenians. i don't follow, perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light. [sy] so what am i trying to point out? first, at least for that region, [sy] you cannot blame turks/kurds etc since it was a self defense situation. [sy] most of the armenians, i think, are not to blame either. but since some [sy] people started that fire, it is not easy to undo it. there are facts. [sy] people cannot trust eachother easily. it is very difficult to establish [sy] a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with [sy] different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately [sy] very easy to start a fire! again, the fighting between armenians and georgians in 1918/19 had little to do with the destruction of the armenians in turkey. it is interesting that the georgian leaders of the transcaucasian federation (armenia, azerbaijan, and georgia) made special deals with turkish generals not to pass through tiflis on their way to baku, in return for georgians not helping the armenians militarily. of course, as turkish troops marched across what was left of caucasian armenia, many armenians went north and such population movement caused problems with the locals. this is in no comparison with events 4 years earlier in eastern anatolia. my father's mother's family escaped cemiskezek -> erzinka -> erzerum -> nakhitchevan -> tiflis -> constantinople -> [sy] my grandparents were *not* bloodthirsty people. we did not experience [sy] what they had to endure... they had to leave their lands, there were [sy] ladies, old ladies, all of her children killed while she forced to [sy] witness! young women put dirt at their face to make themselves [sy] unattractive! i don't want to go into any graphic detail. my grandmother's brother was forced to dress up as a kurdish women, and paste potato skins on his face to look ugly. the turks would kill any armenian young man on sight in dersim. because their family was rather influential, local kurds helped them escape before it was too late. this is why i am alive [sy] you may think that my sources are biased. they were biased in some sense. [sy] they experienced their own pain, of course. that is the way it is. but [sy] as i said they were living in peace with their neighbors before. why [sy] should they become enemies? david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 i have read -just today- two articles dripping of hate and offence to a great deal of people. i could find as much matching hatred in your articles as i have found in some of the self-righteous "kill-in-the-name of god" people. i don't know why you are so attcaking to everyone, is it a reaction to the hatred calls on this newsgroup, or is it a reaction to hardships you have seen and experienced from before... i have learnt not to judge people by only what they say, but rather try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their i hope you would be able to do the same with everyone, starting by your ownself, because only through that you could be able to understand your feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt. thanks for your time 
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 i have just started reading the articles in this news group. there seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet other members with scare tactics. i believe one posting said that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his server who keeps a file on him in hope that "appropriate action might be taken". i don't know where you guys are from but in america such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated. here, we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it. take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from. it would be nice if, as you rightly point out the inherent value of freedom of speech, discussion would also deal with the all-to- frequent ritualized abuses and distortions of that freedom that do occur. there are situations where a few extremely vocal, and usually radical, people **do** drive people away, effectively stifle all other ("opposing") views and generally "take over". *clearly*, the purpose behind such actions is *to deprive* others of *their* freedom of speech through overt and covert coercion and domination of the "media form" in question. while "freedom" of speech is to be valued, this is not. how would you suggest that this sort of reoccuring problem be alleviated? more particularly, how can this be controlled within the structure of these newsgroups? tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 sam zbib writes i'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state, as a hostile action leading to war. it was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an exclusive state. if the state was to be exclusive, it would not have 400 000 arab citizens. could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed. and no, i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action. when someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce. it is not a hostile action leading to war. no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity. palestinians are no exception. perhaps you heard about anti-trust in the business world. since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions. basic anti-trust law says that, while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing, you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm. you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori . clearly, the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate. they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews. the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality. being a multi-ethnic / multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours was no different, just another religion. plus they paid fair market value, etc... they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy. (i'm not a conspiracy theorist myself, but this one is hard to dismiss). right now, i'm just going to address this point. when the jewish national fund bought most of its land, it didn't buy it from the palestinians themselves, because, for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin), living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon. the jnf offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of it. it's called commerce. the owners, however, made no provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them. they are to blame, not the jews. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu sam zbib bell-northern research bitnet/internet: zbib@bnr.ca voice: (613) 763-5889 fax: (613) 763-2626 surface mail: stop 162, p.o.box 3511, station c, ottawa, canada, k1y 4h7 my opinions are my own and no one else's 
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 hey serdar: man without a brain, yare such a loser!!! proline: cosmo@pro-angmar internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com uucp: uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo 
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 you are quite the loser proline: cosmo@pro-angmar internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com uucp: uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo 
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 go back to nursery school jerk. proline: cosmo@pro-angmar internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com uucp: uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo 
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 you are brain damaged. that hate of++0b1fatransfer cancelledf yours courses through your sick body like poison. it's just a matter of time. your fate is sealed. proline: cosmo@pro-angmar internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com uucp: uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo 
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 first of all i never said the holocaust. i said before the holocaust. i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). uh oh! the first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's "qualifications" in an area. if you know something about nazi germany, show it. if you don't, shut up. simple as that. i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. all jews suffered during wwii, not just our beloved who perished or were tortured. we all suffered. second, the name-calling was directed against you, not civil-libertarians in general. your name-dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument. go back to the minors, junior. 
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 btw, with bosnia's large moslem population, why have nations like turkey, saudi arabia, syria, egypt, and others with either money or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered to help out bosnia? obviously, you really don't know. they *have* spoken out (cf sec'y of state christopher's recent trip to the me), note the clause "more forcibly", above. my point is that they have made a few pro-forma, perfunctory remarks, and sent in a few c-130's and so forth, but it's clearly not something they're losing much sleep over. they're just going through the motions, while moslems are being "ethnically cleansed" out of what used to be yugoslavia. the us has been speaking out far more loudly than the moslem nations in the un and other world besides, there's no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, liberia, angola, or (it appears with the khmer rouge's new campaign) cambodia. non-whites don't count? hmm...some might say kuwaitis are non-white. ooops, i forgot, kuwaitis are "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count. precisely. humanitarian concerns were not the primary justification for us involvement in the gulf - oil and geopolitics were. if the the kuwaitis didn't have oil (and assuming iraq still saw fit to invade them) i doubt you would have seen operation desert storm. ---peter 
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 first of all i never said the holocaust. i said before the holocaust. i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). uh oh! the first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's "qualifications" in an area. if you know something about nazi germany, show it. if you don't, shut up. simple as that. i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. all jews suffered during wwii, not just our beloved who perished or were tortured. we all suffered. second, the name-calling was directed against you, not civil-libertarians in general. your name-dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument. go back to the minors, junior. all humans suffered emotionally, some jews and many others suffered physically. it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. thanks for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with. i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could 
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 dear mr. beyer: it is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom" of racism and violent deragatory." it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial in fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless. it is speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. it is only through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. that is the idea behind freedom of expression. what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by some and what they might find offensive might be your belief. it is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the case seems to be with this channel) that one can change another's erring ways.that is why jefferson said that here we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to combat it". 
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 what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum? it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others. heck, nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today. seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs, so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does. there is one big difference between israel and the arabs, christians in this israel allows freedom of religion. 
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 rights of children violated by the state of israel (selected articles of the iv geneva convention of 1949) article 31: no physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties. article 32: the high contracting parties specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. this prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishment (...) but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents. article 33: no protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. collective penalties and likewise measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. article 34: taking of hostages is prohibited. article 49: individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. article 50: the occupying power shall, with the cooperation of the national and local authorities, facilitate the proper working of all institutions devoted to the care and education of article 53: any destruction by the occupying power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the state, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations. ps: it is obvious that violations of the above articles are also violations of the international convention of the rights of the 
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 poem by german-jewish poet erich fried (holocaust survivor) ein jude an die zionistischen kaempfer - 1988 von erich fried was wollt ihr eigentlich ? wollt ihr wirklich die uebertreffen die euch niedergetreten haben vor einem menschenalter in euer eigenes blut und in euren eigenen kot ? wollt ihr die alten foltern jetzt an andere weitergeben mit allen blutigen dreckigen einzelheiten mit allem brutalen genuss die folterknechte wie unsere vaeter sie damals erlitten haben ? wollt jetzt wirklich ihr die neue gestapo sein die neue wehrmacht die neue sa and ss und aus den palaestinensern die neuen juden machen ? aber dann will auch ich weil ich damals vor fuenfzig jahren selbst als ein judenkind gepeinigt wurde von euren peinigern ein neuer jude sein mit diesen neuen juden zu denen ihr die palaestinenser und ich will sie zurueckfuehren helfen als freie menschen in ihr eigenes land palaestina aus dem ihr sie vertrieben habt oder in dem ihr sie quaelt ihr hakenkreuzlehrlinge ihr narren und wechselbaelge der weltgeschichte denen der davidstern auf euren fahnen sich immer schneller verwandelt in das verfluchte zeichen mit den vier fuessen das ihr nun nicht sehen wollt aber dessen weg ihr heut geht ! 
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 through private contributions on federal land". your hate-mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content and social value. down the toilet it goes..... and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel. neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt. in otherwords, american taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money. and finalyy, how does "federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity? that "federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet, to house homeless americans. 
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 [anas] there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report [anas] on the situation in the o.t. but, as most people used to see on tv, the [anas] israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o.t. the israelis [anas] used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. [anas] so, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine. [anas] they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in [anas] palestine. bring me one case where israeli soldiers deliberately killed a "neutral reporter". this is another one of your wet dreams. unlike many countries, israel does allow reporters in and out of the o.t. that is what the problem is. if israel were a country like china, then nothing would transpire from what is happening in the o.t. but there seems to be a proliferation of journalists in israel always trying to show how evil the israeli monster is. arab countries don't allow journalists anywhere, we have yet to hear about the massacres of kurds, the destruction and annihilation of hama, the killings of moslem fundamentalists in mosques in egypt and algeria etc... why is it we only get state reports? how accurate are they? anas, go give a lesson of freedom of speech to your arab bretheren before telling us what to do. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 this is nonsense. i lived in the negev for many years and i can say for sure that no beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. on the contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. there are quite a few beduin students in the ben-gurion university. there are good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population. all the beduins i met would be rather surprised to read mr. davidson's poster, i have to say. -danny keren. 
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 to my fellow columbian, i must ask, why do you say that i engage in fantasies? arafat is a terrorist, who happens to have a lot of pull among palestinians. can we ignore the two facts? i doubt it. peace, roar lion roar, and other niceties, 
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 the u.s. holocaust memorial museum: a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j. o'keefe [holocaust revisionism] theodore j. o'keefe is an editor with the institute for historical review. educated at harvard university . . . according to the 1990 harvard alumni directory, mr. o'keefe failed to graduate. you may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated (forgive any inaccuracies, i deleted the original post) isn't this the same person who wrote the book, and was censured in canada a few years back? 
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 the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files. so it will be nice if yigal will tell us: 1. why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous? adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including the millions of americans of arab ancestry. perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california (and elsewhere??)? friendly rivalry perhaps? come on! most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel. that is why the adl monitors arab organizations. that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago. the adc is an organization of arab-*americans*. let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" arab-americans should be spied on? you're also saying that "most if not all" arab-americans should be views as a national security threat to israel (and the us, as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the wtc bombing, in which no arab-americans were involved)? by inference, can we assume that you think that anyone of arab lineage anywhere in the world poses a threat to israel and, therefore, should be spied on? like it or not, edward, anwar has a very good, valid point. obviously, in presenting it, he (quite legitimately and deliberately) takes a point of view to an extreme which might not have been what you intended, but that is one of the best ways to demonstrate a "slippery slope" type of argument, which i believe was his aim. i very frankly believe that the adl will be proved innocent in this case. i doubt there's enough evidence to weigh against them even in a civil court, where preponderance of the evidence, not evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, is the standard for "winning" such a case. that, however, does not prevent me from seeing the merit in anwar's point. rest deleted. "how sad to see/a model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -tim rice,"chess" eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 hamza answers one of my articles: [to] if indeed israeli soldiers killed a "hamas mujahid" with an anti-tank [to] missile then i'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not [to] have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the [to] missile. [hamza] maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body [hamza] gets "desintegrated." of course, destroying 10 houses to [hamza] kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it? well done hamza. you edited my answer to anas omran, took everything out of context and then replied to it the way you wanted. now i really understand why the peace process is not making any progress. you guys ain't listening, just babbling away to your same old rhetoric. 
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 the problem book of anania of shirak "on the ancient peak of ararat the centuries have come like seconds and passed on." -avetik issahakian by yuri danilov some years ago journalists interviewing celebrities liked to ask them: "what books would you take with you if you were to go off on a space flight?" and though the number of books allowed on the trip varied from 10 to 30, depending on the type of spacecraft and the generosity of the interviewer, and celebrities are people of the most varied tastes, ages, and professions, not one of them dared to say that he or she would want to take with them at least one book of arithmetic problems. some of these people certainly excluded this kind of literature because they were trained in the humanities and had nothing but scorn for "numbers" (though secretly afraid of them). others steered clear of such puzzle books because they were masters of incomparably more difficult branches of modern mathematics and didn't mind saying for all the world to hear that they didn't know how to solve mere arithmetic problems. professional mathematicians were no exception. here's what the russian mathematician alexander khinchin, a specialist in statistics, wrote about arithmetic: "i willingly confess that any time a fifth-grader asked me to help solve an arithmetic problem, it was a hard work for me, and sometimes i failed completely. of course, like most of my friends, i could easily solve the problem by the natural algebraic route --constructing equations or sets of equations. but we were supposed to avoid using algebraic analysis at all costs! . . . by the way, it's a fact that is well known and oft repeated that, as a rule, neither high school graduates, nor students at teaching colleges, nor teachers beginning their careers (nor, i must add, scientific researchers) can solve arithmetic problems. it seems the only people in the world who are able to solve them are fifth-grade teachers." now, i'm not insisting that a book of arithmetic problems be included in the bookbag of anyone flying into space. but a sense of justice induces me to recommend one particular problem book, one that will satisfy the most fastidious taste and supply food for thought sufficient not only for a relatively short flight to the moon but for a extended space voyage--say, to venus and back. one for the "road" they both took out the books they brought for the road. kingsley glanced at the royal astronomer's book and saw a bright cover with a group of cutthroats shooting at each other with revolvers. "god knows what this kind of stuff leads to," thought kingsley. the royal astronomer looked at kingsley's book and saw the history of herodotus. "good lord, next he'll be reading thucydides," thought the royal astronomer. --fred hoyle, the black cloud the book i'm talking about isn't very big, but its 24 problems constitute 24 elegant miniatures from seventh-century armenia. naive and wise at the same time, rich in striking detail and the bright coloration of the period, these problems are reminiscent of the reliefs on the famous monument of armenian architecture, the church on the island of akhtamar in lake van (in what is now turkey_. they are as inseparable from the image of armenia as the elegant letters of the armenian alphabet, invented by mesrop mashtots, or the songs of komitas, or the paintings of saryan. an edition of these incredibly beautiful problems has long been a bibliographic rarity. it was published under the title problems and solutions of vardapet [1] anania of shirak, armenian mathematician of the seventh century (translated and published by i. a. orbeli, petrograd, 1918). the abundance of close observations and wide-ranging information about the way of life and customs of that remote epoch when anania of shirak lived and worked have actually rendered a disservice to his problem book. for many years the book was known only to researchers in the humanities--specialists in armenian history who jealously guarded their treasure and wouldn't let just anyone see it. even now, after research by k. p. patkanov, the learned monk father kaloust, j.i. orbeli, a. abramyan, v. k. chaloyan, and others has brought the works of anania of shirak to light in scholarly circles, the general reader remains ignorant of the very existence of this remarkable problem book. vardapet anania of shirak once fell in love with the art of calculation, i thought that no philosophical notion can be constructed without number, considering it the mother of all wisdom. --anania of shirak among ancient armenian thinkers, vardapet anania of shirak stands out because of the breadth of his interests and the unique mathematical orientation of his work. some of his works have been preserved. in addition to the problems and solutions, the following tracts have found a special place in the estimation of scholars: on weights and measures, cosmography and calendrical theory, and armenian geography of the seventh century a.d. (the authorship of the last work was long attributed to another outstanding thinker of ancient armenia, movses of khoren). in his autobiography, anania of shirak has this to say about himself: i, anania of shirak, having studied all the science of our armenian land and having learned the holy scripture intimately, in the expression of the psalmist, "every day i illuminated the eyes of my mind." feeling myself lacking in the art of calculation, i came to the conclusion that it is fruitless to study philosophy, the mother of all sciences, without number. i could find in armenia neither a man versed in philosophy nor books that explained the sciences. i therefore went to greece and met in theodosiople a man named iliazar who was well versed in ecclesiastical works. he told me that in forth armenia [2] there lived a famous mathematician, christosatur. i went this person and spent six months with him. but soon i noticed that christosatur was a master not of all science but only of certain fragmentary facts. i then went to constantinople, where i met acquaintances who told me: "why did you go so far, when much closer to us, in trebizon, on the coast of pontus [3] lives the byzantine vardapet tyukhik. he is full of wisdom, is known to kings, and knows armenian literature." i asked them how they knew this. they answered: "we saw ourselves that many people traveled long distances to become pupils of so learned a man. indeed the archdeacon of the patriarchate of constantinople, philagrus, traveled with us, bringing many young persons to become pupils of tyukhik." when i heard this, i expressed my gratitude to god, who had quenched the thirst of his slave. i went to tyukhik at the monastery of st. eugene and explained why i had come. he received me graciously and said: "i praise our lord that he sent you to learn and to transplant science in the domain of st. gregory; i am glad that all your country will learn from me. i myself lived in armenia for many years as a youth. ignorance reigned there." vardapet tyukhik loved me as a son and shared all his thoughts with me. the lord bestowed upon me his blessing: i completely assimilated the science of number, and with such success that my fellow students at the king's court began to envy me. i spent eight years with tyukhik and studied many books that had not been translated into our language. for the vardapet had an innumerable collection of books: secret and explicit, ecclesiastical and pagan, books on art, history, and medicine, books of chronologies. why enumerate them by title? in a word, there is no book that tyukhik did not have. and he had such a gift from the holy spirit for translating that when he sat down to translate something from the greek into armenian, he did not struggle as other translators did, and the translation read as if the work were written in that language tyukhik told me how he had achieved such vast erudition and how he had learned the armenian language. "when i was young," he said, "i lived in trebizon, at the court of the military chief ioannus patricus, and for a long time, up to the accession of mauritius to the throne i served as a military man in armenia and learned your language and literature. during one attack by persian troops on the greeks, i was wounded and escaped to antioch. i lost all my possessions. praying to the lord to heal my wounds, i made a promise: "if you prolong my life, i shall dedicate it not to accumulating perishable treasures but to collecting treasures of knowledge." and the lord heard my prayers. after i recovered i went to jerusalem, and from there to alexandria and rome. upon returning to constantinople, i met a famous philosopher from athens and studied with him for many years. after that i returned to my homeland and began to teach and instruct my people." after some years that philosopher died. not finding a replacement for him, the king and his courtiers sent for tyukhik and invited him to assume the teacher's position. tyukhik, citing the promise he made to god not to move far from the city, turned down the offer. but because of his wide leaning, people came streaming from all countries to study with him. and i, the most insignificant of all armenians, having learned from him this powerful science, desired by kings, brought it to our country, supported by no one, obligated only to my own industry, god's help, and the prayers of the blessed educator. and no one thanked me for my efforts. problems and solutions a half and one sixth and one nine-ninth of all the books were printed on verge'; one fifth and one two-hundred-eighty-fifth--on rag paper; one forty-fifth and one eight-hundred-fifty-fifth--on vellum, and forty-five inscribed copies--on dutch paper. and so, find how many copies were printed in all. --imitation of anania of shirak a latin proverb says habent sua fata libelli ("books have their own fate"). the fate of problems and solutions by anania of shirak is quite amazing. the manuscripts of anania's book were preserved only because, according to armenian historians, "in ancient and medieval armenia manuscripts were guarded from invaders, like weapons, and cherished, like one's own children." biding their time, the manuscripts lay in the matenadaran, a renowned depository of ancient manuscripts (now the mesrop mashtots institute of ancient manuscripts). and its hour finally arrived. in 1896 the learned monk father kaloust used two manuscripts to publish the problem book, supplementing it with an introduction and commentary. in 1918 the book was translated into russian, edited, annotated, and typeset by iosef orbeli, a prominent scholar (and later a member of the academy of sciences of the ussr). in the translator's words, the problems of anania are "amusing, full of life, and simple." orbeli goes on to say: "the subjects of the problems are generally taken from everyday life. the scene is predominantly his homeland shirak and the surrounding countryside, and the dramatis personae, if they are named, are the local princes--the kamsarakans, including nersekh, who was a contemporary of anania." like other ancient authors, anania of shirak used only "aliquots" -- that is, fractions with a numerator of 1. when it is necessary to write fractions with numerators other than 1, one has to represent it as a sum of aliquots (see the epigraph above). like any true work of art, the problems of anania suffer terribly in the retelling. you have to read the originals (albeit in translation) in their full glory. so let's open anania's problem book--a gift from across the ages. problems 1 and 8 relate to the armenian uprising against the persians in a.d. problem 1 my father told me the following story. during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians, prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds. three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops. the first time, he struck down half of the persian army. the second time, pursuing the persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. the third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army. the persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to nakhichevan. and so, from this remainder, find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre. problem 8 during the famous armenian uprising against the persians, when zaurak kamsarakan killed suren, one of the armenian azats[4] sent an envoy to the persian king to report the baleful news. the envoy covered fifty miles in a day. fifteen days later, when he learned of this, zaurak kamsarakan sent riders in pursuit to bring the envoy back. the riders covered eighty miles in a day. and so, find how many days it took them to catch the envoy. problem 18 mentions vessels made of varying amounts of metal. in the russian translation, they are all called "dishes." but in the original armenian, according to orbeli's note, the dishes in the first and second instances are called mesur, and in the third instance scutel. scutel is a common armenian word, but mesur had not been encountered in armenian literature before anania's problems and solutions. problem 18 there was a tray in my house. i melted it down and made other vessels from the metal. from one third i made a mesur; from one fourth, another mesur; from one fifth, two goblets; from one sixth, two scutels; and from two hundred ten drams, i made a bowl. and now, find the weight of the tray. several of the problems reflect the richness of the caucasian fauna in anania's time -- for instance, problem 7. problem 7 once i was in marmet, the capital of the kamsarakans. strolling along the bank of the river akhuryan, i saw a school of fish and ordered that a net be cast. we caught a half and a quarter of the school, and all the fishes that slipped out of the net ended up in a creel. when i looked in the creel, i found forty-five fishes. and now, find how many fishes here were in all. the temptation is great to present all 24 problems. but i'll restrain myself and offer you just one more. problem 20 provides some interesting information about the wild animals that inhabited armenia at one time but now extinct for so long that there is no mention of them even in zoological reference books. the wild donkey, according to the generally accepted view, never roamed the armenian lands. yet anania of shirak offers evidence to the contrary . problem 20 the hunting preserve of nersekh kamsarakan, ter[5] of shirak and asharunik, was at the base of the mountain called artin. one night great herds of wild donkey entered the preserve. the hunters could not cope with the donkeys and, running to the village of talin, told nersekh about them. when he arrived with his brothers and azats and entered the preserve, they began killing the wild beasts. half of the animals were caught in traps, one fourth were killed by arrows. the young, which constituted one twelfth of all the animals, were caught alive, and three hundred sixty wild donkeys were killed by spears. and so, find how many beasts there were at the start of this massacre. "set in type by me, iosef orbeli" his biography could not be squeezed into the framework of a -- k uzbashyan, academician iosef abgarovich orbeli anyone who is lucky enough to hold a copy (1/n of the small printing--n is the solution to the epigraph in the previous section) of the russian translation of anania of shirak's problems and solutions, a thin book with yellowed pages, has probably noticed the variety of the fonts, the elegance of the borders, and the high quality of the design, printing, and binding. such great attention to detail is characteristic of works that fulfill a requirement for a degree in bookmaking. and this problem book was indeed a kind of diploma attesting to the professional maturity of the man who created it. an advertisement at the end of the book reads: "this book was typeset in december 1917 at the printing offices of the russian academy of sciences by me, iosef orbeli; the text was also proofread, laid out, and decorated with borders by me. various circumstances prevented me from carrying this project to the end; the final pages of the book were typeset by m. strolman." typesetting was neither the first nor the only profession of the renowned orientalist iosef orbeli, who later became the director of the hermitage museum in leningrad. he was also a cabinetmaker and a locksmith. orbeli had already become acquainted with the famous academic printing house typis academiae, founded in 1728 and known all over the scientific world for its rich collection of fonts and its virtuoso typesetters. in preparing to publish the corpus of ancient inscriptions preserved on the walls of armenian churches, orbeli found it necessary to create a new font that would preserve the unique signs and ligatures. this complicated work was done by m. g. strolman. (unfortunately the entire set of letters was destroyed during the blockade of leningrad in world war ii.) when orbeli came to the printing offices of the academy of sciences, times were hard. the only way to publish the newly translated problems of anania was for orbeli to learn typesetting (he had always been attracted to the printer's craft). in 1922 orbeli became the director of printing at the academy of sciences. even after he retired, he remained a tireless champion of russian academic typography. back to earth this book by definition does not exhaust all the most important works in this domain. the editor hopes that those who are guilty of this incompleteness will read these lines and, stung by shame, will work up, if not a collection like this, at least a monograph. --v. bonch-bruyevich introduction to the russian translation of solid-body symmetry by r. knox and a. gold let's imagine a time when space flight is an everyday thing, and high schoolers will spend their breaks as astronauts-in training in the perelman crater on the far side of the moon. maybe one of the space travelers will take this very copy of quantum, and another, looking over her shoulder, will read this article and say to himself: "this anania from shirak seems like a pretty interesting guy. when i get home i'll try to find his problems." good luck, my young friend! anania is sure to entertain you. perhaps by then there will be more than n copies of his timeless problems and solutions. and we can hope they will be as lovingly printed as the masterpieces created by iosef orbeli. [1] vardapet (or vartabed) means teacher or learned man in armenian. (the armenian language suffers in english from a dual transliteration scheme. thus, mesrop is often rendered as "mesrob", komitas as "gomidas," and so on). [2] fourth armenia was one of fifteen provinces into which, according to armenian geography in the seventh century a.d., so-called great armenia was divided. [3] "pontus" (or "pontus euxinus") was an old name for the black sea. [4] "azats" were members one of several strata of freemen in ancient armenia. [5] "ter" was the title of the heads of sovereign royal families in ancient david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 it's all my fault. i am in violation of one of my own rules: "avoid followingup to a barf posting." through private contributions on federal land". your hate-mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content and social value. down the toilet it goes..... and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel. those damned, spiking israelists, right, barfling? neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to "trained seals"? you mean the ones that flap their flippers making "arf, arf! arf, arf!" sounds? recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt. in otherwords, american taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money. and finalyy, how does "federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity? in your own diseased mind, you now seem to believe that tax exemption is equivalent to government funding. holy shit, batman! the us government is now one of the major supporters of the catholic church -- in violation of the rules of separation of church and state! that "federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet, to house homeless americans. quick, bill! commandeer all the churches and give them to the people! or does your anti-logic only apply to the mosques belonging to what you have described as "ragheads" or perhaps the synagogues of those you have characterized as "hymies"? jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 problem 1 my father told me the following story. during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians, prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds. three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops. the first time, he struck down half of the persian army. the second time, pursuing the persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. the third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army. the persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to nakhichevan. and so, from this remainder, find how many persian soldiers there were before the answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760 corollary: armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. after all, they are not as innocent as the asala network claims. 
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 look mr. atakan: i have repeated it in the past, and i shall repeat it once more, that when it comes to how greeks are treating the turks in greece, you and your copatriots should simply shut up. because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic fellows who studied at the greek universities without paying any money for tuition, food, and helth insurance. and any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the grouth of the turkish community in greece with the destruction of the greek minority in turkey. aykut atalay atakan panos tamamidis mr. tamamidis: before repling your claims, i suggest you be kind to individuals who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations, and unequal treatment of turkish minority in greece.i want the world know how bad you treat these people. you will deny anything i say but it does not make any difrence because i will write things that i saw with my eyes.you prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school etc. do you greeks only give these things to turkish minority or everybody has rights to get them.your words even discriminate these people. you think that you are giving big favor to these people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing. if you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted by the government of the greece, i suggest that you investigate to see the facts. then, we can discuss about the most basic human rights like fredom of religion, if you did not see with your 'eyes' freedom of religion you must ne at least blind ! fredom of press of turkish 2 weeks ago i read the interview of a turkish journalist in a greek magazine, he said nothing about being forbiden to have turkish press in greece ! minority, ethnic cleansing of all turks in greece, give as a brake. you call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles? freedom of right to have property without government intervention, what do you mean by that ? anyway in greece, as in every country if you want some property you 'inform' the goverment . fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders, well well well. when turkish in area of komotini elect 1 out of 3 represenatives of this area to greek parliament, if not freedom what is it? 3 out of 3 ? maybe there are only turks living there .... how greek government encourages people to destroy religious places, houses, farms, schools for turkish minority then forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them. i cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported. a minority of greek idiots indeed attack religious places, which were protected by the greek police. photographs of greek policemen preventing turks from this non brain minority were all over greek press. before i conclude my writing, let me point out how greeks are treated in turkey. we do not consider them greek minority, instead we consider a part of our society. there is no difference among people in turkey. we do not state that greek minority go to turkish universities, get free insurance, food, and health insurance because these are basic human needs and they are a part of turkish community. all big businesses belong to greeks in turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the greece which tries to destroy turkish minority, we encourage all minorities in turkey to be a part of turkish society. oh no. please do give as a brake ! minorities in turkish treated like that ? your own countrymen die in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs, an this is reported by turks, and you want us to believe tha turkey is the paradise of human rights ? business of greeks i turkey? yes 80 years ago ! you seem to be intelligent, so before presenting turkey as the paradise of human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more. aykut atalay atakan 
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 anas omran has claimed that, "the israelis used to arrest, and sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters." the assertion by anas omran is, of course, a total fabrication. if there is an once of truth iin it, i'm sure anas omran can document such a sad and despicable event. otherwise we may assume that it is another piece of anti-israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does not know how to teach their children to tell the truth. if omran would care to retract this 'error' i would be glad to retract the accusation that he is a liar. if he can document such a claim, i would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar. failing to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is. 
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 anas omran writes in his earlier posting: a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas ...and then his "fantasy" begins... mujahid. the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid using anti-tank missiles. the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid's body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized. at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles. anas omran this clearly is a "fantastic" story, anas! i am very curious as to who (or what) your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account (if not, blatant lie). it surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible)! such a story would be "eaten up" by some of the papers over here. so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before! - believe me, i'm not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from... your dreams!!!! michael zion magil ibm canada laboratory 
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 |> there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report |> on the situation in the o.t. but, as most people used to see on tv, the |> israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o.t. the israelis |> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters. |> so, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine. |> they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine. please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed in the "o.t.". it is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of the intifada, palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their demonstrations for the benefit of the media. having spoken to a danish reporter who covered the initfada, i know of at least one case where he found out that a "mass demonstration" on the outskirts of gaza was setup for himself and his colleagues. when i asked whether the footage shot was sent he replied affirmatively, "after all, it did happen." when this became the case, the idf began closing sensitive trouble spots to reporters. |> anas omran shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninja of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 problem 1 my father told me the following story. during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians, prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds. three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops. the first time, he struck down half of the persian army. the second time, pursuing the persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. the third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army. the persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to nakhichevan. and so, from this remainder, find how many persian soldiers there were before the answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760 i thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the remaining persian troops on the second round, and then 1/11 of those remaining on the third round. this would mean answer: a*(1 - 1/2)*(1 - 1/4)*(1 - 1/11) = 280 --> a = 821.333 
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 a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle-east. ---------------------------------------------------------- by elias davidsson having stated my assumptions, i will now state my proposal. 1. a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli-jew and the other palestinian-arab. 5. the emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed' marriages in israel/palestine, all of whom would have relatives on 'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society. the existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf. someone else said something similar. i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias's "proposal". i just want to say that it is very distressing that at least two people here are profoundly ignorant of nazi racial doctrine. they were not like elias's idea, they were more like the opposite. nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation. an instructive example is the nazi attitude to gypsies. according to nazi theoreticians, gypsies were an aryan race. they were persecuted, and in huge numbers murdered, because most european gypies were considered not pure gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure gypsy race and other undesirable races. this was the key difference between the theoretical approach to jews and gypsies, by the way. it is also true that towards the end of wwii even the "purist" gypsies were hunted down as the theory was forgotten. (email: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au) 
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 it was announced on npr 4/17/93 10:00 am edt, that turkish president ozal died of a heart attack in ankara. david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 for your information on israel. since i read both american media and israeli media, i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on. of course you never read arab media, i read arab, israeli (jer. post, and this network is more than enough) and western (american, french, and british) reports and i can say that if we give israel -10 and arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course you can switch the polarities) israeli newspapers will get either a -9 or -10, american leading newspapers and tv news range from -6 to -10 (yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis) the montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer to kahane's views than some israeli right wing newspapers, british range from 0 (neutral) to -10, french (that iknow of, of course) range from +2 (afro-french magazines) to -10, arab official media range from 0 to -5 (egyptian) to +9 in sa. why no +10? because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing. as to the claim that israeli papers are biased, of course they are. some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media here in america. but they still report events about which people here know nothing. i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy. the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9, while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new-york times and similar news-makers, and -8 if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers. so you are not better off. 
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 first of all i never said the holocaust. i said before the holocaust. i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). uh oh! the first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's "qualifications" in an area. if you know something about nazi germany, show it. if you don't, shut up. simple as that. i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. all jews suffered during wwii, not just our beloved who perished or were tortured. we all suffered. second, the name-calling was directed against you, not civil-libertarians in general. your name-dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument. go back to the minors, junior. all humans suffered emotionally, some jews and many others suffered physically. it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. thanks for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with. i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could when you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense, let me know. otherwise, back to your own league, son. 
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 |> i recently read that during bill clinton's campaign, he stated |> that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as |> israel's capital. according to the article, mr. clinton |> reaffirmed this after winning the presidency. however, |> during recent talks with president mubarak, secretary of |> state christopher stated that "the status of jerusalem |> will be a final matter of discussion between the parties". |> now i don't want to start a big discussion over the status |> of jerusalem. all i want to know is if anyone can |> authenticate mr. clinton's statements with dates, places, etc. this would be one of the results of "u.s. backed peace!!!!!!" process. |> thank you. |> ben. 
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 : the hamas way of death : (following is a transcript of a recruitment and training : videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions, the military alaa zeineldine while you brought up the separate question of israel's unjustified policies and practices, i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above. 
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 o.k., its my turn: driving the jews into the sea ?! i am sick and tired of this 'driving the jews into the sea' sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo; it simply can't be proven as part of their plan ! may i suggest you chech out the _palestinian national covenant (1964)_. it may not use the exact words as quoted above but i'm sure many will agree that the same message is being issued. later on when i get back home i will try to find the precise section(s) but you can do the research for now (i hope). i also realize that yasser arafat renounced the _covenant_ *to the western media only* but he has yet to inform the pnc officially and enequivocally of his exact intentions on this issue. therefore, as far as we are concerned the _covenant_ still stands as the "bible" (so to speak) of the mainstream palestinian national movement! (pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith) as a staunch pro-israel activist i can confidently say that bnai brith has not influenced my opinions on the arab-israeli conflict. as i mentioned above, just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar conclusion on the palestinian national movement (the plo in most cases). bb does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share my views. what hamas and islamic jihad believe in, as far as i can get from the arab media, is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law. this would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its (mostly muslim) inhabitants. what 1948 situation? a negative situation i presume? is this the same "situation" when the jordanian occupiers of east jerusalem would not allow the jews to go worship at the holiest site in judiasm? was this an example of qu'ranic law being exercised? if not, i have another suggested reading for you... get into the "soc.culture.arabic" newsgroup where the posters have been debating the topic "jews in the qu'ran" (and may i remind you the people doing the debating appear to be devout muslims with some knowledge of the qu'ran). you will find that jews aren't really viewed positively by the qu'ran (to put it lightly). so how do you think jews (or any other non-islamic religion) will be treated by an islamic state governed by the words of the qu'ran? i think the 1948-1967 "situation" in jerusalem will return *at best*! what do you however, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice. all i have to say to that is, once again, see s.c.a - "jews in the qu'ran" and think again. "freedom of choice" is *definitely* not an option in qu'ranic law especially for non-muslims and all women! remember the gulf war? i'm sure you saw the reports about how women had few rights in saudi arabia (an islamic state). as for the plo, i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat's mind. probably nothing! aside from how to break the news to his palestinian brethren that the _covenant_ is "null and void" without getting assassinated himself! although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super-power in the region, the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state : religion. in conclusion, ahmed, you should go to the library and find the _palestinian national covenant (1964)_ and read it very carefully. by the way, redpath library does have it in stock because that is exactly where i found it when i was doing my research. so enjoy the reading and i hope we will be hearing back from you soon! mi ke mik emik emi k "opinions expressed above m i k e m i k e m are my own and not that m i k e mikem i kem i k of 'big blue'" m i k e m ike m ike mike ibm corp., toronto, canada 
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 |> this is nonsense. i lived in the negev for many years and i can say |> for sure that no beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. on the |> contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them |> now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. there are |> quite a few beduin students in the ben-gurion university. there are |> good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population. |> all the beduins i met would be rather surprised to read mr. davidson's |> poster, i have to say. |> -danny keren. it is nonsense, danny, if you can refute it with proof. if you are citing your experience then you should have been there in the 1940's (the article is comparing the condition then with that now). otherwise, it is you who is trying to change the facts. 
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 anas omran writes in his earlier posting: [anas] a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas [anas] mujahid. the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid [anas] using anti-tank missiles. the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid's [anas] body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized. [anas] at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles. if indeed israeli soldiers killed a "hamas mujahid" with an anti-tank missile then i'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile. stop polluting the net with you fantasies. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 ac = in <9304202017@zuma.uucp> sera@zuma.uucp (serdar argic) pl = linden@positive.eng.sun.com (peter van der linden) pl: 1. so, did the turks kill the armenians? ac: so, did the jews kill the germans? ac: you even make armenians laugh. ac: "an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac: systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac: the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. the ac: memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the u.s. in ac: 1926 with the title 'men are like that.' other references abound." typical mutlu. pvdl asks if x happened, the response is that y happened. even if we grant that the armenians *did* do what cosar accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of. while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid, i can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself. i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement. but maybe i'll see a new line from his list of insults. |__/__/_/ |warren@ / nysernet.org 
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 the fact that israel is already discussing with some palestinians what the composition of the armed palestinian police force in the territories will be during the transition phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the israeli side. -- chris metcalfe 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76310">
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 april 24th is approaching, and armenians around the world are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members celebrating in joy the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million muslim people by your criminal grandparents between 1914 and 1920? did you think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist grandparents against my grandparents in 1914? you've never heard of 'april 23rd'? "in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul. it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves. it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land." (sahak melkonian - 1920 - "preserving the armenian purity") during the first world war and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the 20th century acted upon an entire people. this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as u.s. ambassador mark bristol, william langer, ambassador layard, james barton, stanford shaw, arthur chester, john dewey, robert dunn, papazian, nalbandian, ohanus appressian, jorge blanco villalta, general nikolayef, general bolkovitinof, general prjevalski, general odiselidze, meguerditche, kazimir, motayef, twerdokhlebof, general hamelin, rawlinson, avetis aharonian, dr. stephan eshnanie, varandian, general bronsart, arfa, dr. hamlin, boghos nubar, sarkis atamian, katchaznouni, rachel bortnick, halide edip, mccarthy, w. b. allen, paul muratoff and many j. c. hurewitz, professor of government emeritus, former director of the middle east institute (1971-1984), columbia university. bernard lewis, cleveland e. dodge professor of near eastern history, princeton university. halil inalcik, university professor of ottoman history & member of the american academy of arts & sciences, university of chicago. peter golden, professor of history, rutgers university, newark. stanford shaw, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. thomas naff, professor of history & director, middle east research institute, university of pennsylvania. ronald jennings, associate professor of history & asian studies, university of illinois. howard reed, professor of history, university of connecticut. dankwart rustow, distinguished university professor of political science, city university graduate school, new york. john woods, associate professor of middle eastern history, university of chicago. john masson smith, jr., professor of history, university of california at berkeley. alan fisher, professor of history, michigan state university. avigdor levy, professor of history, brandeis university. andreas g. e. bodrogligetti, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. kathleen burrill, associate professor of turkish studies, columbia university. roderic davison, professor of history, george washington university. walter denny, professor of history, university of massachusetts. caesar farah, professor of history, university of minnesota. tom goodrich, professor of history, indiana university of pennsylvania. tibor halasi-kun, professor emeritus of turkish studies, columbia university. justin mccarthy, professor of history, university of louisville. jon mandaville, professor of history, portland state university (oregon). robert olson, professor of history, university of kentucky. madeline zilfi, professor of history, university of maryland. james stewart-robinson, professor of turkish studies, university of michigan. .......so the list goes on and on and on..... serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 you a good case for rights to abortion. system: fourd.com phone: 617-494-0565 cute quote: being a computer means never having to say you're sorry 
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 or, as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan, would like to see it happen again... is this the joke of the month? 1. your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million muslim people between 1914 and 1920. 2. your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii. 3. your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women, children and elderly people in fascist x-soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years. the entire population of x-soviet armenia now, as a result of the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people, are armenians. for nearly one thousand years, the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation. the persecutions culminated in 1914: the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects. 2.5 million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. after one thousand years, turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds. the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye. today, x-soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x-soviet armenia. today, x-soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against x-soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds. turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland. during the 78th anniversary, we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people, the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution - a struggle that unites all turks and kurds. today, we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events, be they cultural, political or religious. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76314">
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 or, as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan, would like to see it happen again... is this the joke of the month? 1. your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million muslim people between 1914 and 1920. 2. your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii. 3. your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women, children and elderly people in fascist x-soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years. the entire population of x-soviet armenia now, as a result of the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people, are armenians. for nearly one thousand years, the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation. the persecutions culminated in 1914: the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects. 2.5 million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. after one thousand years, turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds. the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye. today, x-soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x-soviet armenia. today, x-soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against x-soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds. turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland. during the 78th anniversary, we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people, the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution - a struggle that unites all turks and kurds. today, we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events, be they cultural, political or religious. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76315">
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 this implies both sides are equal. true, it may sometimes be difficult or still living in an alternate universe? numerous articles in major newspapers (london times) and periodicals (newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between armenians and the nazis. arthur derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively. derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of armenian history. concurrently, derounian embarked on what one would call 'crisis control' or face-saving. in order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger armenian community in the united states, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant.[1] [1] john roy carlson (real name arthur derounian), 'the plotters,' e. p. dutton & company, inc., new york 1946, p. 182. source: "mitteilungsblatt, berlin, december 1939, nr. 2 and 5-6" yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of armenian-nazi a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch-armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. the magazine was first published in berlin in 1938 during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of armenian-nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. this magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. in nazi germany, armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices. the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered "aryan" and what befell them. now wait, there is more. source: "from sardarapat to sevres and lausanne" by avetis aharonian. the armenian review, vol. 16, no. 3-63, autumn, sep. 1963, pp. 47-57. p. 52 (second paragraph). "your three chiefs, dro, hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour, surmali, etchmiadzin, and zangibasar. this is intolerable. look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table - look at this, here in december are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined tartar villages which my representative wardrop has sent me. the official tartar communique speaks of the destruction of 300 villages." p. 54 (fifth paragraph). "yes, of course. i repeat, until this massacre of the tartars is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership i hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition." "...it is the armed bands led by dro, hamazasp and kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many tartar villages in the regions of surmali, etchmiadzin, zangezour, and zangibasar. there are official charges of massacres." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76316">
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 referring to notes from the personal diary of russian general l. odishe liyetze on the turkish front, he wrote, "on the nights 11-12 march, 1918 alone armenian butchers bayoneted and axed to death 3000 muslims in areas surrounding erzincan. these barbars threw their victims into pits, most likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish muslims, in groups of 80. my adjutant counted and unearthed 200 such pits. this is an act against our world of civilization." on march 12, 1918 lieut-colonel griyaznof wrote (from an official russian account of the turkish genocide), "roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos, dismembered joints and carved out organs of muslim peasants... alas! mainly of women and children." source: doc. dr. azmi suslu, "russian view on the atrocities committed by the armenians against the turks," ankara universitesi, ankara, 1987, pp. 45-53. "document no: 77," archive no: 1-2, cabin no: 10, drawer no: 4, file no: 410, section no: 1578, contents no: 1-12, 1-18. (acting commander of erzurum and deveboynu regions and commander of the second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner of war, lieutenant colonel toverdodleyov) "the things i have heard and seen during the two months, until the liberation of erzurum by the turks, have surpassed all the allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of the armenians. during the russian occupation of erzurum, no armenian was permitted to approach the city and its environs. while the commander of the first army corps, general kaltiyin remained in power, troops including armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the area. when the security measures were lifted, the armenians began to attack erzurum and its surroundings. following the attacks came the plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder of the owners of these houses...plundering was widely committed by the soldiers. this plunder was mainly committed by armenian soldiers who had remained in the rear during the war. one day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of soldiers including an armenian soldier began to drag two old men of seventy years in a certain direction. the roads were covered with mud, and these people were dragging the two helpless turks through the mud and dirt... it was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and traps. the turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds and withdrew. the reason was that most of the turks who were on night patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. the turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear also. finally, the court martial which had been established for the trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for fear that they themselves would be punished. the incidents of murder and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently. sometime in january and february, a leading turkish citizen haci bekir efendi from erzurum, was killed one night at his home. the commander in chief (odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days. the commander in chief has bitterly reminded the armenian intellectuals that disobedience among the armenian enlisted men had reached its highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half of the turks sent outside the city had not returned. ...we learnt the details this incident from the commander-in-chief, odishelidge. they were as follows: the killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the act of killing was committed solely by the armenian renegades... more than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless turks have been killed in erzincan. large holes were dug and the defenceless turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. later, the murdered turks were thrown into the holes. the armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses: 'seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' thus ten more turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil. the armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty turks, and cut their heads off one by one. following the erzincan massacre, the armenians began to withdraw towards erzurum... the armenian renegades among those who withdrew to erzurum from erzincan raided the moslem villages on the road, and destroyed the entire population, together with the villages. during the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. while the travellers were passing through erzurum, the armenians took advantage of the time when the russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill the kurds they had hired. when the russian soldiers heard the cries of the dying kurds, they attempted to help them. however, the armenians threatened the russian soldiers by vowing that they would have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from acting. all these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with hatred and loathing. lieutenant medivani from the russian army described an incident that he witnessed in erzurum as follows: an armenian had shot a kurd. the kurd fell down but did not die. the armenian attempted to force the stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying kurd. however, since the kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the armenian failed in his attempt. having seen this, the armenian ripped open the abdomen of the kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping him with the iron heel of his boot. odishelidge himself told us that all the turks who could not escape from the village of ilica were killed. their heads had been cut off by axes. he also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered children. lieutenant colonel gryaznov, who passed through the village of ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following: there were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads. every armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and spat on the corpses. in the courtyard of a mosque which was about 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 centimeters. among these corpses were men and women of every age, children and old people. the women's bodies had obvious marks of rape. the genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder. a few educated armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators for the armenian troops were called by lieutenant colonel gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the armenians had done. to the lieutenant colonel's disgusted amazement, the armenian girls started to laugh and giggle, instead of being horrified. the lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. when he told the girls that the armenians, including women, were generally more licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers, the armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous. an armenian contractor at the alaca communication zone command narrated the following incident which took place on february 20: the armenians had nailed a turkish women to the wall. they had cut out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head. the great massacre in erzurum began on february 7... the enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people among this group were able to save their lives as the result of my decisive attempts. the others, the armenians claimed, were released when they learnt that i understood what was going on. among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the armenian officers, karagodaviev. today, some turks were murdered on the streets. on february 12, some armenians have shot more than ten innocent moslems. the russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were threatened with death. meanwhile i imprisoned an armenian for murdering an innocent turk. when an armenian officer told an armenian murderer that he would be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'how dare you hang an armenian for killing a turk?' in erzurum, the armenians burned down the turkish market. on february 17, i heard that the entire population of tepekoy village, situated within the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. on the same day when antranik entered erzurum, i reported the massacre to him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible act. however no result was achieved. in the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a natural silence. on the night of 26/27 february, the armenians deceived the russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the turkish soldiers. later, it was understood that this massacre had been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. the population had been herded in a certain place and then killed one by one. the number of murders committed on that night reached three thousand. it was the armenians who bragged to about the details of the massacre. the armenians fighting against the turkish soldiers were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even withstand the turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. the leading armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre. however, the armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. the lower classes within the armenian community have always obeyed the orders of the leading armenian figures and commanders. i do not like to give the impression that all armenian intellectuals were accessories to these murders. no, for there were people who opposed the armenians for such actions, since they understood that it would yield no result. however, such people were only a minority. furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the armenian cause. some have seemingly opposed the armenian murders but have supported the massacres secretly. some, on the other hand, preferred to remain silent. there were certain others, who, when accused by the russians of infamy, would say the following: 'you are russians. you can never understand the armenian cause.' the armenians had a conscience. they would commit massacres and then would flee in fear of the turkish soldiers." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving them to their fate. if a landlord sells an apartment building "vacant" to another landlord and fails to notify his tenants, they just might find themselves out on the street all of a sudden. the seller may be a scoundrel and a crook but this doesn't make the buyer a "thief", as israelis are so often called here on tpm. it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted. do many israelis or jews share your opinion ? do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? i don't know if others share this opinion. it is mine, and i'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't the way i see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land, they didn't have a say. of course, now for the sake of the "greater arab unity" the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews (an act that is illegal in jordan), but when it happened, it was just the arabs that lived along the coast in western palestine, later to be called israel, were shafted by their brother arabs just as they've been shafted for decades since then by their arab bretheren. somehow, though, the arab call has continued to blame israel, not only for the syrian landowner sell-out in western palestine (israel) but even for the occupation of eastern palestine (jordan) by the hashemites. this is just more of refusing to take blame for one's own actions. infra-structure etc...). imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court. if your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover, you could probably go to court, too. you'd probably lose, though. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76319">
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 it seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the center for polict research. i will oblige. trumpets, please. my name is elias davidsson, icelandic citizen, born in palestine. my mother was thrown from germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables' (at that times this group was defined as 'jews'). she was forced to go to palestine due to many cynical factors. "forced to go to palestine." how dreadful. unlike other undesirables/jews, she wasn't forced to go into a gas chamber, forced under a bulldozer, thrown into a river, forced into a "medical experiment" like a rat, forced to march until she dropped dead, burned to nothingness in a crematorium. your mother was "forced to go to palestine." you have our deepest sympathies. i have meanwhile settled in iceland (30 years ago) we are pleased to hear of your escape. at least you won't have to suffer the same fate that your mother did. and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland, palestine, your homeland, palestine? because of the same reason (they belonged to the 'indesirables'). should we assume that you are refering here to jews who were kicked out of their homes in jerusalem during the jordanian occupation of east jerusalem? these are the same people who are now being called thieves for re-claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and never sold to anyone? these people include my neighbors in jerusalem with the children of whom i played as child. their crime: theyare not jews. i have never heard of not being a jew as a crime. certainly in israel, there is no such crime. in some times and places being a jew is a crime, but not being a jew??!! my conscience does not accept such injustice, period. our brains do not accept your logic, yet, either. work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination. those who protest against such practices in arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from israel. the way you've written this, you seem to accept criticism in the arab world unless it deflects criticism from israel, in which case, we have to presume, you no longer support criticism of the arab world. the struggle against discrimination and racism is universal. look who's taling about discrimination now! the center for policy research is a name i gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command the support of many volunteers in iceland. it is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds. be careful. you are starting to sound like barfling. professionally i am music teacher and composer. i have published several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in europe. i would hope that discussion about israel/palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner. calling names is not helpful. good. don't call yourself "arf" or "the center for policy research", jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76320">
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 recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt. in the donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit organization. i've donated money to a group restoring streetcars and it was tax deductible. why don't you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned? i do (did) contribute to the arf mortgage fund but when interest rates plumetted, i just paid it off. the problem is, i couldn't convince congress to move my home to a nicer location on federal land. btw, even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt private funds, the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by taxpayers forever. would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why this point is never mentioned? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76321">
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 a delightful message, interesting, and so kindly written. thanks. prof. m. kramer, boston university 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76322">
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 eh???? could you please give me details about an event where a "neutral observer" was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier? actually, i'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale behind the recent murder of ian feinberg (?) in gaza. hate to be simple minded about this tim, but i think its really very simple. he was a dirty jew. and the only good jew, in some peoples mind, is a dead jew. thats what 40 years of propaganda that fails to discriminate between jew and zionist will do. thats what 20 years of statements like the ones i've appended will do to someones mind. they make people sick. they drag down political discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way to resolve a dispute. what else can come of such demagogery? peace? arafat on political pluralism: ``any palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and endangers his life. the plo will know how to deal with him.'' --- arafat, kuwaiti news agency, 1/2/89 arafat on the massacre at tienamin square: ``... on behalf of the arab palestinian people, their leadership, and myself... [i] take this opportunity to express extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the recent incidents in people's china.'' --- arafat in telegram sent to the head of the chinese communist party yassir arafat, humanitarian: ``open fire on the new jewish immigrants ... be they from the soviet union, ethiopia, or anywhere else. it would be a disgrace if we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our territory. i want you to shoot... it makes no difference if they live in jaffa or jericho. i give you explicit orders to open fire. do everything to stop the flow of immigration.'' --- yassir arafat, al muharar (lebanese weekly), april 10, 1990 yassir arafat on genocide: ``when the arabs set off their volcano, there will only be arabs in this part of the world. our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated...'' --- yasser arafat, ap, 3/12/79 adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast76323">
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 today marks the 78th anniversary of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds in eastern anatolia and x-soviet armenia. the following letter, which represents a small portion of the full text, along with more than 200 pages of historical documents, scholarly sources, eyewitness accounts and photographs, was sent to president bill clinton, members of congress, editors, program directors and columnists of major newspapers, journals and radio/tv stations for the 78th anniversary of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people. on april 23 of every year, the people of turkiye remember their dead. they grieve for lost family and the lost homes of their grandfathers. this year the turkish nation is mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their lives generously and with altruism, so that the future generations may live on that anointed soil of the turkish land happily and ------------------------- letter ---------------------------------- during the years of world war i, the x-soviet armenian government has planned and perpetrated the 'genocide' of the muslim people, which not only took the lives of 2.5 million muslim people, but was also the method used to empty the turkish homeland of its inhabitants. to this day, turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-soviet armenia. in order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic turkish homeland, which is the crux of turkish political demands, fascist x-soviet armenia continues its anti-turkish policy in the following ways: 1. x-soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political 2. x-soviet armenia, employing asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish 3. x-soviet armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people's vehement demands and protests. 4. using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-turkish supporters of the turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian. using all the aforementioned methods, the x-soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue. yet despite the efforts of the x-soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the armenians, the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide. with the full knowledge that the struggle for the turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages, the turkish and kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims of the turkish genocide demand: 1. that the x-soviet armenian government, as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship, recognize the turkish genocide; 2. that x-soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people; 3. that the x-soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide; 4. that all world governments, and especially the united states, officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure; 5. that the u.s. government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-soviet armenia, and officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of turkish territorial demands; 6. that the x-soviet republics officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 2.5 million muslim people in their history books. the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. furthermore, a new generation has risen - equipped with a deep sense of commitment, politically mature and conscious, who determinedly pursue the turkish cause, through all necessary means, ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle. therefore, the victims of the turkish genocide call upon all muslims in the united states and canada to participate vigorously in the political, cultural and religious activities of the 78th anniversary of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 watch your language asshole!!!! proline: cosmo@pro-angmar internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com uucp: uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo 
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 organization: aiken computation lab, harvard university what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum? it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others. israel has a right to keep jerusalem for many reasons. they include the fact that the majority of the citizens are israeli, the fact that israel maintains religious freedom for all people, and the historical connection of judaism to jerusalem. when jerusalem was devided by a jordanian invasion in 1948, the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit religious shrines. this cease fire agreement was violated by jordan, who did not allow jews to visit holy sites under their control. the jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city. they turned a jewish cemetary into a hotel, and used the gravestones in their israel has allowed individuals of all religions into jerusalem, protected holy sites, and demonstrated its fitness to control the city. also, i should point out that islam is not centered in jerusalem, but has holy sites there. the home of islam is mecca, where all muslims should make a pilgramage (the hajj). unlike israeli jerusalem, jews and christians are not allowed in saudi mecca. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 koc) responded to article <1993apr22.152937.14766@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu. [dd] problem 1 [dd] [dd] my father told me the following story. during the famous wars between the [dd] armenians and the persians, prince zaurak kamsarakan performed [dd] extraordinary heroic deeds. three times in a single month he attacked the [dd] persian troops. the first time, he struck down half of the persian army. [dd] the second time, pursuing the persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the [dd] soldiers. the third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army. [dd] the persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to [dd] nakhichevan. and so, from this remainder, find how many persian soldiers [dd] there were before the massacre. [koc] answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760 good for you! you win the prize -- a free trip to karabakh as an azeri soldier! now, calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de-populate the area of armenians! [koc] corollary: armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. after [koc] all, they are not as innocent as the asala network claims. fact: i didn't notice any mention of turks in shirak, van, or trebizon in this seventh century story! fact: these places were filled with armenians as of 1915. fact: by the end of 1916, after the turkish genocide of the armenians, there were no armenians left in shirak, van, or trebizon -- only turks and kurds! in fact, there were no pontus greeks left alive in trebizon either! conclusion: numbers don't lie in either case! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 |> final solution for the gaza ghetto ? |> while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they |> repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and |> attempt to starve the gazans. |> the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and |> their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers. groups like hamas |> and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all |> jews into the sea. perhaps, we should persuade jewish people to help |> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal. |> maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative jews. |> is that what you are counting on, elias - the pity of murderers. |> you say your mother was jewish. how ashamed she must be of her son. i |> am sorry, mrs. davidsson. |> harry. o.k., its my turn: driving the jews into the sea ?! i am sick and tired of this 'driving the jews into the sea' sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo; it simply can't be proven as part of their plan ! this has been discussed before, by several people, on this net. the statement is attributable either to hajj amin al-husseini, former grand mufti of jerusalem - and the leader of the palestinian death squads during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen. it was not coined by b'nai b'rith or, for that matter, any jewish "how sad to see/a model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -tim rice,"chess" eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 |> paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that |> the hizbollah fires on the galilee, they justify israel's |> holding to the security zone. |> noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians. 
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 |> final solution for the gaza ghetto ? |> while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto, they |> repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and |> attempt to starve the gazans. |> the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and |> their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers. groups like hamas |> and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all |> jews into the sea. perhaps, we should persuade jewish people to help |> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal. |> maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative jews. |> is that what you are counting on, elias - the pity of murderers. |> you say your mother was jewish. how ashamed she must be of her son. i |> am sorry, mrs. davidsson. |> harry. o.k., its my turn: driving the jews into the sea ?! i am sick and tired of this 'driving the jews into the sea' sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo; it simply can't be proven as part of their plan ! (pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith) what hamas and islamic jihad believe in, as far as i can get from the arab media, is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law. this would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its (mostly muslim) inhabitants. however, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice. as for the plo, i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat's mind. although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super-power in the region, the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state : religion. forget the syntax, ahmed, and focus on the semnatics. the fact is that the plo does not recognize israel's right to exist. this is perfectly obvious from the plo covenant (cairo, 1968). the covenant calls for the destruction of the "zionist entity". as far as i know the israel-destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies the purpose for the existence of the plo. if you would like, i can post the relevant caluses. now the hamas ideal is far more radical, it seems. i know it has been posted here several times, and while i do not have a copy of it, i am sure that someone does and he (or she, of course) would be more than happy to repost it. regardless of phrasing, groups like hamas, and the hezbollah, and even the newly moderate and politically-correct plo, have at the very heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of israel. it just seems to me that mr. davidsson's suggestion that jews support people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing one to many jews. 
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 |> paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that |> the hizbollah fires on the galilee, they justify israel's |> holding to the security zone. |> noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians. absolutely. i'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out. at that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for our side in the struggle. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 |> of course you never read arab media, i don't, though when i was in israel i did make a point of listening to jtv news, as well as monte carlo radio. in the united states, i generally read the nyt, and occasionally, a mainstream israeli |> i read arab, israeli (jer. post, and this network is more than enough) |> and western (american, french, and british) reports and i can say |> that if we give israel -10 and arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course |> you can switch the polarities) israeli newspapers will get either |> a -9 or -10, american leading newspapers and tv news range from -6 |> to -10 (yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis) |> the montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer |> to kahane's views than some israeli right wing newspapers, british |> range from 0 (neutral) to -10, french (that iknow of, of course) range |> from +2 (afro-french magazines) to -10, arab official media range from |> 0 to -5 (egyptian) to +9 in sa. why no +10? because they do not want to |> overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since |> they are doing nothing. what you may not be taking into account is that the jp is no longer representative of the mainstream in israel. it was purchased a few years ago and in the battle for control, most of the liberal and left-wing reporters walked out. the new owner stated in the past, more than once, that the jp's task should be geared towards explaining and promoting israel's position, more than attacking the gov't (likud at the time). the paper that i would recommend reading, being middle stream and factual is "ha-aretz" - or at least this was the case two years ago. |> the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9, |> while that of the average american would be the same if they do |> not read or read the new-york times and similar news-makers, and |> -8 if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers. and what about the "nat'l enquirer"? 8^) but seriously, if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers one could arrive at other conclusions. the information you received was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninja of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 ac = in <9304202017@zuma.uucp> sera@zuma.uucp (serdar argic) pl = linden@positive.eng.sun.com (peter van der linden) pl: 1. so, did the turks kill the armenians? ac: so, did the jews kill the germans? ac: you even make armenians laugh. ac: "an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac: systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac: the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. the ac: memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the u.s. in ac: 1926 with the title 'men are like that.' other references abound." typical mutlu. pvdl asks if x happened, the response is that y happened. even if we grant that the armenians *did* do what cosar accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of. while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid, i can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself. i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement. but maybe i'll see a new line from his list of insults. /|/-\/-\ this article is supplied without longbox |__/__/_/ and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas. |warren@ / nysernet.org 
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 in a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (center for policy research) says: 6. your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told, namely that hundreds of thousands of non-jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews. jews who also left, for example to europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to return. how can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ? is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland ? you are conveniently ommitting the fact that the arab governments told the arab citizens of israel to leave israel, join with the arab armies so that after what they felt like an assured victory occured, these arabs could return to their former homes, reclaim them as well as anything else they wanted that belonged to jews. when the arabs lost, israel was left with a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back into the country as citizens. what would you have done? let them in so they could kill jews? israel sees those arabs who stayed as citizens because they were loyal to israel during the war and didn't leave. of course some arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing between the two is impossible. therefore a decision was made based on secuturity of the country. 8. you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim. i wonder how many and where. there is very little evidence available about that. as much as i know, many arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are not accepted as members. could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs ? no kibbutz that i have ever visited has any "employees" unless they had to hire some people for the restaurants, hotels etc if there weren't enough people on the kibbutz to do them. in such cases, they are paid properly. if a kibbutz turns away an arab, 9i have never seen or heard of this) but it reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz, not the whole kibbutz movement. to keep it what way'. i am certain that if only religious communities in the u.s. would be asked, they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages. but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority. your answer is not satisfactory. this just shows how ignorant you are of israeli politics. although the major parties in israel aren't religious (however not totally secular), due to the format of the government (coalition) the religious parties have always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition. in fact, from what i heard the present government is the least influenced by the religious parties in the existance of israel. israel cannot be called a secular state. for instace, haifa is the only city in the country (except for maybe some arab cities) where buses run on the jewish sabbath. there are many other examples of religion in israel. marriages in israel are not contolled by the state, but by rabbis and priests. obviously your disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country you claim to know so much about. | internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca fidonet: 1:163/109.18 | | mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca | | <<my opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> | 
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 dear josh i appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions. having said that, i am not totally happy with your answers. 1. you did not fully answer my question whether israeli id cards identify the holders as jews or arabs. you imply that u.s. citizens must identify themselves by race. is that true ? or are just trying to mislead the reader ? do you know of any democratic country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or religious identity to any public official who so requests ? 2. the answer to the second question is evasive. there are all kinds of maps issued. they are not equivalent to state policy. you did not respond to my question. 3. your answer to the third question (israeli nuclear arsenal) is interesting. you say that israeli 'probably' stocks nuclear weapons. what evidence have you for maintaining that ? 4. my fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a ma'ariv article documenting such cases. i did not ask about cases like vanunu (everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned) but about those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and 5. thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. from it i understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares, one for the occupier (civil law) and one for the occupied (military law). the law allows israeli arabs to settle in hebron, it seems. if so, why doesn't it allow hebron arabs to settle in israel ? 6. your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told, namely that hundreds of thousands of non-jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews. jews who also left, for example to europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to return. how can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ? is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland ? 7. somebody answered my 7.question regarding y. rabin signing an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948. according to that information, y. rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all inhabitants of lydda and ramleh, about 50,000 people. these expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other atrocities which remind bosnia. i was referred to a book by israeli journalist benny goodman called the origin of the palestinian refugee problem, published by cambridge university press. is this book available in your library ? 8. you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim. i wonder how many and where. there is very little evidence available about that. as much as i know, many arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are not accepted as members. could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs ? 9. my question about the lack of civil marriage in israel was whether it is true that the israeli legislator intended to discourage intermarriage. you did not address this question but evaded it by saying that the 'entire religious establishment wants to keep it what way'. i am certain that if only religious communities in the u.s. would be asked, they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages. but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority. your answer is not satisfactory. i would be glad to have some more input from you after these 
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 first of all i never said the holocaust. i said before the holocaust. i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). uh oh! the first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's "qualifications" in an area. if you know something about nazi germany, show it. if you don't, shut up. simple as that. i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. all jews suffered during wwii, not just our beloved who perished or were tortured. we all suffered. second, the name-calling was directed against you, not civil-libertarians in general. your name-dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument. go back to the minors, junior. all humans suffered emotionally, some jews and many others suffered physically. it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. thanks for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with. i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could when you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense, let me know. otherwise, back to your own league, son. i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles. this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, yet because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion, you attack him. why did not anyone venture to answer andi's question in an intelligent and unoffending manner? the only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact are the israelophiles. now will we please start having some intelligent conversation? you all are an insult to you race! {assuming you are also semitic} now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the 1930's and 1940's. the hirgun, and other branch - off militant groups, did fight the british do get them out of palestine. yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs. these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers, but not only thta also killed many jews who were in favor of a compromise with the palestinians. in addition, they massacred an entire palestinian village in 1948, contributing to the exodus of the frightened palestinians who feared their very lives. i mention this not because i'm anti semitic [i'm part jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the israelites pisses me off so. i'm not as critical of the palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the jews. it 's a damn shame that the palestinians had to pay for german and european anti semitism. pissed off at immature, closeminded, self righteous 
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 just kidding 
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 i'm not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including you). you really belong to the 25-30% of ignorants in usa who don't know what the holocaust ("shoa" should be the real word) was. first you write in message-id: <1993apr24.203620.6531@virginia.edu> i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events. i doubt the propaganda machine of goering and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you write in message-id: <1993apr25.181351.1373@virginia.edu> first let me correct myself in that it was goerbels and not goering (airforce) who ran the nazi propaganda machine. instead of joseph goebbels. and you dare to say that you "know more about nazi germany than most people (maybe including "us")" ? i'm sure you learned the history of nazi germany and austria from your family. what i resent is ignorant statements that call people names when they disagree with your position. opposing the atrocities commited by the israeli governement hardly qualifies as anti-semitism. if you think name calling is a valid form of argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more trying to make comparisons between israels politics and nazi german- austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect (low), humanity (none) and antisemitism (average). i respect anybody who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a civilized manner. i would never say that anybody that critizises israel and/or its politics is an antisemite, except he uses antisemitic vocabulary/terminology/demagogy. israel is not a perfect country and its politicians also commits errors, even some of them are corrupt (like politicians in any other country), but they carry a huge burden: to care for the safety of all its citizens, and that is really not an easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect that israel commits the one big error and wipe the country (and its jewish citizens plus the so-called collaborators, arabs that wanted to live in peace with their jewish neighbours) of the map. as i said, israel is not a perfect country, but it is the only democracy in the whole middle-east and the only country in the world where jews from everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries they are living. our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non-jewish nations and its governments: as soon as there are more or les big social-economical-political problems in any country, the first ones that pay for the broken glasses are the jews, and later the other minorities of the country. i don't think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government. any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is not appreciated. this is really outrageous: 6.000.000 murdered jews, besides the thousands who survived the shoa in some way or another, and the rest of the living ones mourning for all of them ! i don't know what you call a "civil libertarian" (never heard about them) but i know only one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "civil libertarians" is a new denomination for antisemites. may other civil libertarians come to word to this group so that we can learn if a.beyer and me are right (that civil libertarians are antisemites), or that i'm wrong and he is missusing that word. btw, i couldn't care less for what andi beyer appreciates. manfredo tichauer m. email : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de opitzstrasse 14 voice : (++ 49 40) 27.42.27 2000 hamburg 60 - germany fax : (++ 49 40) 270.53.09 
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 in a previous article, jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (john a absood) says: it is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom" of racism and violent deragatory." it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial i couldn't agree more. canada has an anti-hate law which exists to punish those who wilfully spread false propaganda (lies) for the purpose of putting down another group. this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust. it's too bad that this useless "centre for policy research" isn't in canada. it'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace. | internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca fidonet: 1:163/109.18 | | mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca | | <<my opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> | 
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 |> from: center for policy research <cpr> |> subject: rejoinder. questions to israelis |> to: shaig@think.com |> subject: ten questions to israelis |> dear shai, |> in the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of |> israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information i have |> received from other quarters, according to which there are two |> distinct categories of classifying israelis: citizenship |> (ezrahut) and nationality (le'um). the former is used on passports |> etc, and the later for daily identification in israeli society. i |> am told that people in israel have to carry their id cards at all |> times and present them at many public places, almost every day. |> these id cards make clear who the holder is, a jew or an arab. |> you maintain that this mainly because of religious services |> provided. but do you really believe that this is the reason ? |> could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it |> serves no other purpose ? a number of points. you are making assumptions about the manner in which the cards are used. true, by law, all residents, citizens, and tourists must carry a form of identification with them. for citizens, the standard id is the id card. the purpose this serves on a daily basis, wherein they are presented at public places, is for the purpose of identifying the bearer. this takes place in banks (cashing checks), post offices (registered mail and such), etc... quite frankly, it was rare that i ever had to present my id card for such activities more than once per week. there is no law or requirement that forces people to wave their id cards in public. furthermore, none of the services i outlined discriminate against the bearer in any manner by having access to this information. the only case that i can think of in which the le'um field might be taken into account is during interaction with the police, based upon the scenario. in general though, arab citizens are clearly recognizable, as are non-arabs. your argument therefore becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field is being used to discriminate against them officially. |> in the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that |> israel has no fixed borders, you state that israel's borders were |> 'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. according to what i |> read, the first zionists in the beginning of the century, had |> plans for the jewish state to extend into what is lebanon and into |> transjordan (jordan). i also read that it was the express wish of |> ben-gurion to not declare israel's borders, when israel was |> established, as this might restrict israel's opportunities for |> later expansion. israel often claims it right of existence on the |> fact that jews lived there 2000 years ago or that god promised the |> land to them. but according to biblical sources, the area god |> promised would extend all the way to iraq. and what were the |> borders in biblical times which israel considers proper to use |> today ? finally, if israel wants peace, why can't it declare what |> it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a |> base for negotiations? having all the above facts in mind, one |> cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism, as a |> number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982). i take issue with your assertions. i think that arab countries do know that they have nothing to fear from "israeli expansionism". militarily, israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of land under occupation to a hostile, armed, and insurgent population for a sustained period of time. as is, the intifada is heavily taxing the israeli economy. proof of this can be seen in the israeli withdrawal from lebanon. israeli troops pulled back from the awali, and later from the litani, in order to control the minimal strip needed to keep towns out of range of katyusha missile fire. public opinion in israel has turned towards settling the intifada via territorial concessions. the israel public is sufferring from battle fatigue of sorts and the gov't is aware of it. with regards to borders, let me state the following. i may not agree with the manner in which negotiations are being held, however the crux of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating a starting position. the arab parties have called for total withdrawal and a return to pre-48 borders. if israel were to state large borders, the negotiations might never get under way. if israel were to state smaller borders, then the arab countries might try and force even smaller borders during the negotiations. i think that leaving the matter to be settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic and sensible. |> your answer to my third question is typical of a stalinist public |> official. i don't think your answer is honest. you refer me to |> vanunu's revelations about israel's nuclear arsenal without |> evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. now if he said |> the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why |> should he be punished? i would appreciate more honesty. your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a "center for policy research". whether or not all of vanunu's revelations were true has no bearing on the fact that some were. for disclosing "state secrets" after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that said secrets are not to be made public, one should be punished. as to which were and which weren't, i am under no moral obligation to disclose that - quite the reverse in fact. he was taken to court, tried, and found guilty. you may take issue with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the concept of "secrets of state", something which every democratic govt |> somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning |> 'hidden prisoners' in israeli prisons. he posted an article from |> ma'ariv documenting such cases. it seems that such prisoners do |> exist in israel. what do you think about that ? i noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist more than he documented the fact that they do exist. the clu noted, which you evidently did not pay attention to, that they know of no such reports or cases. i am sorry to tell you but in a country of 4 mill, as tightly knit as israel, even if the matter of the arrest was not made public, within a relatively short time frame, most people would know about it. my own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of x hours. this would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation. |> you imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a |> way to 'cast aspersions upon israel'. such terms have often been |> used by the soviet union against dissidents: they call the soviet |> union into disrepute. if my questions are not disturbing, they |> would not call forth such hysterical answers. my questions are |> clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. i would be |> very happy if you could convince me that what i am told about |> israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so. |> i suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest |> discussion. this is a sign of weakness, not of strength. well, i am sorry to say that your questions are slanted. such questions are often termed "tabloid journalism" and are not disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity. such questions were often used during the mccarthy era as a basis for the witch-hunts that took place then. to use your own example, these questions might have been lifted from the format used by stalinist prosecutors that were looking for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray as a larger and dirtier picture. my answers were not any more "hysterical" than the questions themselves. the problem is not that the q's were provocative, it was that they were selective in their fact seeking. you fall into the same category of those who seek "yes" "no" answers when the real answer is "of sorts". i suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an unequivocal no, you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete them as you see fit. a sign of strength is the ability to look you remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer, only to find that they had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment they sought to protect. the color blindness you exhibit is a true sign of weakness. |> i hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninja of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 but some of this is verifiable information. for instance, the person who knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the bug on your own, but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he was the one who told the public how to do so. typical 'arromdian' of the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle. well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, the armenian government ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? 1) armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van.[1,2,3,4,5] 2) armenians did slaughter 42% of muslim population of bitlis.[1,2,3,4] 3) armenians did slaughter 31% of muslim population of erzurum.[1,2,3,4] 4) armenians did slaughter 26% of muslim population of diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4] 5) armenians did slaughter 16% of muslim population of mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4] 6) armenians did slaughter 15% of muslim population of sivas.[1,2,3,4] 7) armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x-soviet armenia.[1,2,3,4] 8) ..... [1] mccarthy, j., "muslims and minorities, the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire," new york university press, new york, 1983, pp. 133-144. [2] karpat, k., "ottoman population," the university of wisconsin press, [3] hovannisian, r. g., "armenia on the road to independence, 1918. university of california press (berkeley and los angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37. [4] shaw, s. j., 'on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in 1914, "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey (volume ii: reform, revolution & republic: the rise of modern turkey, 1808-1975)." (london, cambridge university press 1977). pp. 315-316. [5] "gochnak" (armenian newspaper published in the united states), may 24, source: "adventures in the near east" by a. rawlinson, jonathan cape, 30 bedford square, london, 1934 (first published 1923) (287 pages). (memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 178 (first paragraph) "in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search, and not only had many moslems been killed, but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden, of which the armenians were aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find them." p. 175 (first paragraph) "the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians, and that announcement having been made, the british troops were then completely withdrawn, and armenian occupation commenced. hence all the trouble; for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms. in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 12/12 armenian atrocities moscow (ap) -- azerbaijani forces on saturday retook three villages seized by armenians and discovered 16 bodies of executed civilians, azerbaijani reports said. the azerbaijani fighters found 16 bodies of civilians, including those of a child and two elderly women who were shot point-blank, "and survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head," said a ministry statement, carried by the azerbaijani azerinform and turan news agencies and the itar-tass news service. "everywhere armenian occupants were, they left tens of corpses of civilians shot to death point-blank and mutilated," the... serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila? if so then let me tell you some good jokes: there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more. in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place. people die that is all. no one gets killed. maybe also vietamiese didn't die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all. maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. no? what do you think of this ? isn't it stupid to say so? well it is as stupid as what you said .next time you want to lie do it sincerely yours. arab civilians did die at dir yassin. but there was no massacre. first of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. secondly, the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians. the village was attacked only for its military significance. in fact, a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin. by all rational standards, dir yassin was not a massacre. the killing was unintentional. the village housed arab snipers and arab troops. thus it was attacked for its military significance. it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians. to even compare dir yassin, in which some 120 or so arabs died, to the holocaust is absurd. the irgun did not want to kill any civilians. the village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived. this is such bullshit. deir yassin was an unprovoked attack on the part of the jews, and a massacre defines it best in my opinion. the village of deir yassin had had a pact with the jews, a peace pact, but the irgun purposely broke this agreement in order to scare off the palestinians. i might grant that this village housed armed arabs [i doubt it] but nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that this was a motivating force amongst the irgun. the deir yassin massacre was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the palestinians to flee the jewish homeland.,...and contrary to your belief, many civilians were killed. deir yassin was later advertized by the very jews who perpetrated it because it was useful in getting many palestinians to leave. the palestinians were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another deir yassin. i'm not necessarily condemning the israelites here; atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the arabs. israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are and were the good guys in the middle east. both arab and jew suck equally. 
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 [sb] oh yeah, israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day [sb] of the year (yom kippur) when the arabs attacked in 1973. oh wait, you [sb] chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact [sb] opposite to the point you are trying to make? i don't think that it's [sb] because it was the war that hit israel the hardest. also, in 1967 it was [sb] egypt, not israel who kicked out the un force. in 1948 it was the arabs [sb] who refused to accept the existance of israel based on the borders set [sb] by the united nations. in 1956, egypt closed off the red sea to israeli [sb] shipping, a clear antagonistic act. and in 1982 the attack was a response [sb] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan [sb] heights. children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel [sb] finally retaliated. nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that [sb] the borders could be expanded. i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs. were not shelling israel from the golan heights in 1982, but rather from lebanon. the golan heights have been held by israel since 1967, and therefore the plo could not have been shelling israel from there, unless there is something i am not aware of. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 from _myths and facts_, by leonard j. davis, near east research inc., 1989: [pp. 108-109] "unlike the plo's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the 100 troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance. deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem, which the arabs had since facts and myths doesn't even know where deir yassin was, why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says? blockaded, and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars. snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem. "arab civilians were killed at deir yassin, but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint. the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about 250. in 1983, however, eric silver of _the guardian_ (britain) interviewed a survivor, mophammed sammour, who testified that 116 out of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'about three days after the massacre,' sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found (alive). we went through the names. nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure was wrong.' this account from eric silver is the only valid point that m&f makes. you can find it together with other evidence and analysis in silver's biography of begin. also in silver's book you will find documentary evidence that nearly everything else in m&f's account is pure bullshit. "unlike the plo's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated. the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops, some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately. independent observers told _the guardian_ that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women." this is pretty disgusting. the guardian was told of one or two feeble old men who dressed in women's clothing in a pathetic attempt to escape death. see silver's book. 
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 |> israel - happy 45th birthday! anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed by israel during these 44 happy year? 
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 freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one the means to speak publicly. some systems have regulations prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from accounts they issue. apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org first of all i'm still baffled what you possibly could have found racist in my argument for freedom of speach. i did not mention names, nationalities, countries let alone races. you are right in that virginia.edu does not have a thought police like israel.nysernet.org seems to. i didn't know that you guys are getting a privelege by the israelis by getting "the means to speak publicly". virginia.edu lets every student regardless of their opinion to speak their mind. virginia.edu is true to its founding father, thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom of speach. sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the 
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 all jews suffered during wwii, not just our beloved who perished or were tortured. we all suffered. all humans suffered emotionally, some jews and many others suffered physically. i'm just waiting for andi to tell us that african americans should start paying compensation to white americans who "suffered" from being slave owners. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 contrary to ben-gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that during the 26 years of the british mandate over palestine and for centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in all parts of the negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys of the southern negev as well as in the more fertile north. these were the bedouin arabs. in fact, this "productive human presence" in the desert has, in the centuries it has been there, produced one of the greatest civilizations in human history. they not only created the wheel, but the printing press, the light bulb, post-modern skyscraper architecture, broadway theatre and nuclear power, as well. the real desertification of the negev, mainly in the southern part, occurred after israel's dispossession of the bedouin's cultivated lands and pastures. right, elias. the negev was a veritable garden of eden until the evil jews turned off the rain and turned it into a horrible desert. part of the international jewish conspiracy. say, who should i call to turn off the rain here in ny, right now? nowadays, the majority of the 12,800 square-kilometer negev, which represents 62 percent of the state of israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond yeah, deserts rarely look like the garden of eden. the main new occupiers of the formerly bedouin negev are the israeli army; the nature reserves authority, whose chief role is to prevent bedouin from roaming their former pasture lands; this is why nature reserves people are heavily armed with anti-tank weaponry. just what we need in the nature reserves. and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. nothing like "vast nuclear reactors" when it comes to hiding them from air attack. at least saddam had the sense to hide his cbn plants in "baby milk" factories. jews in the negev today cultivate less than half the surface area cultivated by the bedouin before 1948, and there is no jewish pastoral activity. indeed, many older people recall fondly those lovely tomatoes and oranges that the bedouin exported form their garden of eden. in fact, that region used to supply the entire world with bananas, until the jews pushed that business onto the "banana republics". elias, you're stupid postings are a source of considerable amusement and hilarity. please don't stop. i might even have to go back to watching tv. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 if you think that kind of uncalled for blanket statement will cause censorship at mr. jefferson's university you are wrong. 
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 can someone elaborate a little on what this "libertarian" movement is? i am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far i recall two self-described "libertarians" posting here. both seems to be: 1) incredibly ignorant. 2) incredibly arrogant. 3) all they want is to get people angry. 4) posses a lousy sense of humor. 5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical connection between topics. 6) describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything in their posters points to the opposite. 7) very childish. is this some campaign to smear this libertarian party or what? -danny keren. 
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 virginia.edu is true to its founding father, thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom of speach. sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the jefferson was not the author of the bill of rights. my history books aren't here, but jefferson might have been in the group that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary. steven berson ucla computer science department (310) 825-3189 steven@cs.ucla.edu los angeles, ca 90024-1596 owwww!! mr. jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of him as author of the bill of rights. and your reference to those in israel was condesceding and inappropriate. the declaratio of independence of 1776 was written by thomas jefferson. in 1787, the constitution was drafted by 55 men in philadelphia. in 1791, the bill of rights was added. well, maybe jefferson would be flattered. as to you guys at uva, your right, not all of you are anti-jewish, or self-hating. but when i visited charlottesville, i noticed a distinct lack of diversity, from which i must assume you garner your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world. 
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 virginia.edu is true to its founding father, thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom of speach. sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the jefferson was not the author of the bill of rights. my history books aren't here, but jefferson might have been in the group that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary. steven berson ucla computer science department (310) 825-3189 look out... we have the beginnings of a donnybrook between one of them liberal, artsy-fartsy western schools and an ossified, establishment eastern university. :-) tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 accounts of anti-armenian human right violations in azerbaijan #008 part b prelude to current events in nagorno-karabakh (part b of #008) | "oh, yes, i just remembered. while they were raping me they | | repeated quite frequently, "let the armenian women have babies | | for us, muslim babies, let them bear azerbaijanis for the | | struggle against the armenians." then they said, "those | | muslims can carry on our holy cause. heroes!" they repeated | | it very often." | ...continued from part a: the six of them left. they left and i had an attack. i realized that the dan- ger was past, and stopped controlling myself. i relaxed for a moment and the physical pain immediately made itself felt. my heart and kidneys hurt. i had an awful kidney attack. i rolled back and forth on top of those christmas ornaments, howling and howling. i didn't know where i was or how long this went on. when we figured out the time, later it turned out that i howled and was in pain for around an hour. then all my strength was gone and i burst into tears, i started feeling sorry for myself, and so on and so forth . . . then someone came into the room. i think i hear someone calling my name. i want to respond and restrain myself, i think that i'm hallucinating. i am silent, and then it continues: it seems that first a man's voice is calling me, then a woman's. later i found out that mamma had sent our neighbor, the one whose apartment she was hiding in, uncle sabir kasumov, to our place, telling him, "i know that they've killed lyuda. go there and at least bring her corpse to me so they don't violate her corpse." he went and returned empty handed, but mamma thought he just didn't want to carry the corpse into his apartment. she sent him another time, and then sent his wife, and they were walking through the rooms looking for me, but i didn't answer their calls. there was no light, they had smashed the chandeliers and lamps. they started the pogrom in our apartment around five o'clock, and at 9:30 i went down to the kasumovs'. i went down the stairs myself. i walked out of the apartment: how long can you wait for your own death, how long can you be cowardly, afraid? come what will. i walked out and started knocking on the doors one after the next. no one, not on the fifth floor, not on the fourth, opened the door. on the third floor, on the landing of the stairway, uncle sabir's son started to shout, "aunt roza, don't cry, lyuda's alive!" he knocked on his own door and out came aunt tanya, igor, and after them, mamma. aunt tanya, uncle sabir's wife, is an urdmurt. all of us were in their apartment. i didn't see karina, but she was in their home, too, lying delirious, she had a fever. marina was there too, and my father and mother. all of my family had gathered there. at the door i lost consciousness. igor and aunt tanya carried me into the later i found out what they had done to our karina. mamma said, "lyuda, karina's in really serious condition, she's probably dying. if she recognizes you, don't cry, don't tell her that her face looks so awful." it was as though her whole face was paralyzed, you know, everything was pushed over to one side, her eye was all swollen, and everything flowed together, her lips, her cheeks . . . it was as though they had dragged her right side around the whole microdistrict, that's how disfigured her face was. i said, "fine." mamma was afraid to go into the room, because she went in and hugged karina and started to cry. i went in. as soon as i saw her my legs gave way. i fell down near the bed, hugged her legs and started kissing them and crying. she opened the eye that was intact, looked at me, and said, "who is it?" but i could barely talk, my whole face was so badly beaten. i didn't say, but rather muttered something tender, something incomprehensible, but tender, "my karochka, my karina, my little golden one . . . " she understood me. then igor brought me some water, i drank it down and moistened karina's lips. she started to groan. she was saying something to me, but i couldn't understand it. then i made out, "it hurts, i hurt all over." her hair was glued down with blood. i stroked her forehead, her head, she had grit on her forehead, and on her lips . . . she was groaning again, and i don't know how to help her. she calls me over with her hand, come closer. i go to her. she's saying something to me, but i can't understand her. igor brings her a pencil and paper and says, "write it down." she shakes her head as if to say, no, i can't write. i can't understand what she's saying. she wanted to tell me something, but she couldn't. i say, "karina, just lie there a little while, then maybe you'll feel better and you can tell me then." and then she says, "maybe it'll be too late." and i completely . . . just broke down, i couldn't control myself. then i moistened my hand in the water and wiped her forehead and eye. i dipped a handkerchief into the water and squeezed a little water onto her lips. she says, "lyuda, we're not saved yet, we have to go somewhere else. out of this damned house. they want to kill us, i know. they'll find us here, too. we need to call urshan." she repeated this to me for almost a whole hour, until i understood her every word. i ask, "what's his number?" urshan feyruzovich, that's the head of the administration where she works. "we have to call him." but i didn't know his home number. i say, "karina, what's his number?" she says, "i can't remember." i say, "who knows his number? who can i call?" she says, "i don't know anything, leave me alone." i went out of the room. igor stayed to watch over her and sat there, he was crying, too. i say, "mamma, karina says that we have to call urshan. how can we call him? who knows his telephone number?" i tell marina, "think, think, who can we call to find out?" she started calling; several people didn't answer. she called a girlfriend, her girlfriend called another girlfriend and found out the number and called us back. the boss's wife answered and said he was at the dacha. my voice keeps cracking, i can't talk normally. she says, "lyuda, don't panic, get a hold of yourself, go out to those hooligans and tell them that they just can't do that." she still didn't know what was really going on. i said, "it's easy for you to say that, you don't understand what's happening. they are killing people here. i don't think there is a single armenian left in the building, they've cut them all up. i'm even surprised that we managed to save ourselves. "she says, "well, ok, if it's that serious . . . " and all the same she's thinking that my emotions are all churned up and that i'm fearing for my life, that in fact it's not all that bad. "ok, fine, fine," she says, "if you're afraid, ok, as soon as urshan comes back i'll send him over." we called again because they had just started robbing the apartment directly under aunt tanya's, on the second floor, asya dallakian's apartment. she wasn't home, she was staying with her daughter in karabagh. they destroyed everything there . . . we realized that they still might come back. we kept on trying to get through to aunt tanya--urshan's wife is named tanya too and finally we get through. she says, "yes, he's come home, he's leaving for your place now." he came. of course he didn't know what was happening, either, because he brought two of his daughters with him. he came over in his jeep with his two daughters, like he was going on an outing. he came and saw what shape we were in and what was going on in town and got frightened. he has grown up daughters, they're almost my age. the three of us carried out karina, tossed a coat on her and a warm scarf, and went down to his car. he took karina and me to the maternity home. . . no, first they took us to the po]ice precinct. they had stretchers ready. as soon as we got out of the car they put karina and me on stretchers and said that we were in serious condition and that we mustn't move, we might have fractures. from the stretcher i saw about 30 soldiers sitting and lying on the first floor, bandaged, on the concrete floor, groaning . . . this was around eleven o'clock at night. we had left the house somewhere around 1:30. when i saw those soldiers i realized that a war was going on: soldiers, enemies . . . everything just like a war. they carried me into some office on the stretcher. the emergency medical people from baku were there. the medical attendant there was an older armenian. urshan told him what they had done to karina because she's so proud she would never have told. and this aging armenian . . . his name was uncle arkady, i think, because someone said "arkady, get an injection ready," he started to fill a syringe, and turned around so as to give karina a shot. but when he looked at her face he became ill. and he was an old man, in his sixties, his hair was all grey, and his moustache, too. he hugged karina and started to cry: "what have they done to you?!" he was speaking armenian. "what have they done to you?!" karina didn't say anything. mamma came in then, and she started to cry, too. the man tried to calm her. "i'll give you a shot." mamma tells him, "i don't need any shot. where is the government? just what are they doing? look what they've done to my children! they're killing people, and you're just sitting here!" some teacups were standing on the table in there. "you're sitting here drinking tea! look what they've done to my daughters! look what they've turned them into!" they gave her something to drink, some heart medicine, i think. they gave karina an injection and the doctor said that she had to be taken to the maternity home immediately. papa and urshan, i think, even though papa was in bad shape, helped carry karina out. when they put her on the stretcher, none of the medics got near her. i don't know, maybe there weren't any orderlies. then they came to me: "what's the matter with you?" their tone was so official that i wrapped myself tighter in the half-length coat. i had a blanket on, too, an orange one, aunt tanya's. i said, "i'm fine." uncle arkady came over and was soothing me, and then told the doctor, "you leave, let a woman examine her." a woman came, an azerbaijani, i believe, and said, "what's wrong with you?" i was wearing my sister lyuda's nightshirt, the sister who at this time was in yerevan. when she was nursing her infant she had cut out a big hole in it so that it would be easier to breast feed the baby. i tore the night shirt some more and showed her. i took it off my shoulders and turned my back to her. there was a huge wound, about the size of a hand, on my back, from the indian vase. she said something to them and they gave me two shots. she said that it should be dressed with something, but that they'd do that in the hospital. they put me on a stretcher, too. they started looking for people to carry me. i raised up my head a little and wanted to sit up, and this woman, i don't know if she was a doctor or a nurse, said, "lie still, you mustn't move." when i was lying back down i saw two policemen leading a man. his profile seemed very familiar to me. i shouted, "stop!" one of the policemen turned and says, "what do you want?" i say, "bring him to me, i want to look at him." they brought him over and i said, "that person was just in our apartment and he just raped me and my sister. i recognize him, note it down." they said, "fine," but didn't write it down and led him on. i don't know where they were taking him. then they put my stretcher near where the injured and beaten soldiers were sitting. they went to look for the ambulance driver so he would bring the car up closer. one of the soldiers started talking to me, "sister . . . " i don't remember the conversation exactly, but he asked me were we lived and what they did to us. i asked him, "where are you from?" he said that he was from ufa. apparently they were the first that were brought in. the ufa police. later i learned that they suffered most of all. he says, "ok, you're armenians, they didn't get along with you, but i'm a russian," he says, "what are they trying to kill me for?" oh, i remembered something else. when i went out onto the balcony with kuliyev for a hammer and nails i looked out the window and saw two azerbaijanis beating a soldier near the kindergarten. he was pressed against the fence and he covered his head with his arms, they were beating him with his own club. the way he cried "mamma" made my skin crawl. i don't know what they did to him, if he's still alive or not. and something else. before he attack on our house we saw sheets, clothes, and some dishes flying from the third or fourth floor of the neighboring building, but i didn't think it was azerbaijanis attacking armenians. i thought that something was on fire or they were throwing something they didn't need out, or someone was fighting with someone. it was only later, when they were burning a passenger car in the yard, when the neighbors said that they were doing that to the armenians, that i realized that this was serious, that it was anti-armenian. they took karina and me to the sumgait maternity home. mamma went to them too and said, "i've been beaten too, help me." but they just ignored her. my father went to them and said in a guilty voice, as though it was his fault that he'd been beaten, and says, "my ribs hurt so much, those creeps have probably broken my ribs. please look at them." the doctor says, "that's not my job." urshan said, "fine, i'll take you to my place and if we need a doctor, i'll find you one. i'll bring one and have him look at you. and he drove them to his apartment. marina and i stayed there. they examined us. i was more struck by what the doctor said than by what those azerbaijanis in our apartment did to us. i wasn't surprised when they beat us they wanted to beat us, but i was very surprised that in a soviet medical facility a woman who had taken the hippocratic oath could talk to victims like that. by happy--or unhappy-- coincidence we were seen by the doctor that had delivered our karina. and she, having examined karina, said, "no problem, you got off pretty good. not like they did in kafan, when you armenians were killing and raping our women. "karina was in such terrible condition that she couldn't say anything--she would certainly have had something to say! then they examined me. the same story. they put us in a separate ward. no shots, no medicinal powders, no drugs. absolutely none! they didn't even give us tea. all the women there soon found out that in ward such and such were armenians who had been raped. and they started coming and peering through the keyhole, the way people look at zoo animals. karina didn't see this, she was lying there, and i kept her from seeing it. they put ira b. in our ward. she had also been raped. true, she didn't have any serious bodily injuries, but when she told me what had happened at their place, i felt worse for them than i did for us. because when they raped ira her daughter was in the room, she was under the bed on which it happened. and ira was holding her daughter's hand, the one who was hiding under the bed. when they were beating ira or taking her earrings off, gold, when she involuntarily let go of her daughter's hand, her daughter took her hand again. her daughter is in the fourth grade, she's 11 years old. i felt really awful when i heard that. ira asked them not to harm her daughter, she said, "do what you want with me, just leave my daughter alone." well, they did what they wanted. they threatened to kill her daughter if she got in their way. now i would be surprised if the criminals had behaved any other way that night. it was simply bartholomew's night, i say, they did what they would love to do every day: steal, kill, rape . . . many are surprised that those animals didn't harm the children. the beasts explained it like this: this would be repeated in 15 to 20 years, and those children would be grown, and then, as they put it, "we'll come take the pleasure out of their lives, those children." this was about the girls that would be young women in 15 years. they were thinking about their tomorrow because they were sure that there would be no trial and no investigation, just as there was no trial or investigation in 1915, and that those girls could be of some use in 15 years. this i heard from the investigators; one of the victims testified to it. that's how they described their own natures, that they would still be bloodthirsty in 15 to 20 years, and in 100 years--they themselves said that. and this, too. everyone is surprised that they didn't harm our marina. many people say that they either were drunk or had smoked too much. i don't know why their eyes were red. maybe because they hadn't slept the night before, maybe for some other reason, i don't know. but they hadn't been smoking and they weren't drunk, i'm positive, because someone who has smoked will stop at nothing he has the urge to do. and they spoke in a cultured fashion with marina: "little sister, don't be afraid, we won't harm you, don't look over there [where i was], you might be frightened. you're a muslim, a muslim woman shouldn't see such things." so they were really quite sober . . . so we came out of that story alive. each every day we have lived since it all happened bears the mark of that day. it wasn't even a day, of those several hours. father still can't look us in the eyes. he still feels guilty for what happened to karina, mother, and me. because of his nerves he's started talk- ing to himself, i've heard him argue with himself several times when he thought no one is listening: "listen," he'll say, "what could i do? what could i do alone, how could i protect them?" i don't know where to find the words, it's not that i'm happy, but i am glad that he didn't see it all happen. that's the only thing they spared us . . . or maybe it happened by chance. of course he knows it all, but there's no way you could imagine every last detail of what happened. and there were so many conversations: karina and i spoke together in private, and we talked with mamma, too. but father was never present at those conversations. we spare him that, if you can say that. and when the investigator comes to the house, we don't speak with father present. on february 29, the next clay, karina and i were discharged from the hospital. first they released me, but since martial law had been declared in the city, the soldiers took me to the police precinct in an armored personnel carrier. there were many people there, armenian victims. i met the tovmasian family there. from them i learned that rafik and their uncle grant had died. they were sure that both had died. they were talking to me and raya, rafik's wife and grant's daughter, and her mother, were both crying. then they took us all out of the office on the first floor into the yard. there's a little one-room house outside there, a recreation and reading area. they took us in there. the women were afraid to go because they thought that they were shooing us out of the police precinct because it had become so dangerous that even the people working at the precinct wanted to hide. the women were shouting. they explained to them: "we want to hide you better because it's possible there will be an attack on the police precinct." we went into the little house. there were no chairs or tables in there. we had children with us and they were hungry; we even had infants who needed to have their diapers changed. no one had anything with them. it was just awful. they kept us there for 24 hours. from the window of the one room house you could see that there were azerbaijanis standing on the fences around the police precinct, as though they were spying on us. the police precinct is surrounded by a wall, like a fence, and it's electrified, but if they were standing on the wall, it means the electricity was shut off. this brought great psychological pressure to bear on us, particularly on those who hadn't just walked out of their apartments, but who hadn't slept for 24 hours, or 48, or those who had suffered physically and spiritually, the ones who had lost family members. for us it was another ordeal. we were especially frightened when all the precinct employees suddenly disappeared. we couldn't see a single person, not in the courtyard and not in the windows. we thought that they must have already been hiding under the building, that they must have some secret room down there. people were panicking: they started throwing themselves at one another . . . that's the way it is on a sinking ship. we heard those people, mainly young people, whistling and whopping on the walls. we felt that the end was approaching. i was completely terrified: i had left karina in the hospital and didn't know where my parents were. i was sort of calm about my parents, i was thinking only about karina, if, heaven forbid, they should attack the hospital, they would immediately tell them that there was an armenian in there, and something terrible would happen to karina again, and she wouldn't be able to take it. then soldiers with dogs appeared. when they saw the dogs some of the people climbed down off the fence. then they brought in about another 30 soldiers. they all had machine guns in readiness, their fingers on the triggers. we calmed down a little. they brought us chairs and brought the children some little cots and showed us where we could wash our hands, and took the children to the toilet. but we all sat there hungry, but to be honest, it would never have occurred to any of us that we hadn't eaten for two days and that people do eat. then, closer to nightfall, they brought a group of detained criminals. they were being watched by soldiers with guard dogs. one of the men came back from the courtyard and told us about it. raya tovmasian . . . it was like a different woman had been substituted. earlier she had been crying, wailing, and calling out: "oh, rafik!," but when she heard about this such a rage came over her! she jumped up, she had a coat on, and she started to roll up her sleeves like she was getting ready to beat someone. and suddenly there were soldiers, and dogs, and lots of people. she ran over to them. the bandits were standing there with their hands above their heads facing the wall. she went up to one of them and grabbed him by the collar and started to shake and thrash him! then, on to a second, and a third. everyone was rooted to the spot. not one of the soldiers moved, no one went up to help or made her stop her from doing it. and the bandits fell down and covered their heads with their hands, muttering something. she came back and sat down, and something akin to a smile appeared on her face. she became so quiet: no tears, no cries. then that round was over and she went back to beat them again. she was walking and cursing terribly: take that, and that, they killed my husband, the bastards, the creeps, and so on. then she came back again and sat down. she probably did this the whole night through, well, it wasn't really night, no one slept. she went five or six times and beat them and returned. and she told the women, "what are you sitting there for? they killed your husbands and children, they raped, and you're just sitting there. you're sitting and talking as though nothing had happened. aren't you armenians?" she appealed to everyone, but no one got up. i was just numb, i didn't have the strength to beat anyone, i could barely hold myself up, all the more so since i had been standing for so many hours--i was released at eleven o'clock in the morning and it was already after ten at night because there weren't enough chairs, really it was the elderly and women with children who sat. i was on my feet the whole time. there was nothing to breathe, the door was closed, and the men were smoking. the situation was deplorable. at eleven o'clock at night policemen came for us, local policemen, azerbaijanis. they said, "get up. they've brought mattresses, you can wash up and put the children to bed." now the women didn't want to leave this place, either. the place had become like home, it was safe, there were soldiers with dogs. if anyone went outside, the soldiers would say, "oh, it's our little family," and things like that. the soldiers felt this love, and probably, for the first time in their lives perceived themselves as defenders. everyone spoke from the heart, cried, and hugged them and they, with their loaded machine guns in their hands, said, "grandmother, you mustn't approach me, i'm on guard." our people would say, "oh, that's all right." they hugged them, one woman even kissed one of the machine guns. this was all terribly moving for me. and the small children kept wanting to pet the dogs. they took us up to the second floor and said, "you can undress and sleep in here. don't be afraid, the precinct is on guard, and it's quiet in the city." this was the 29th, when the killing was going on in block 41a and in other places. then we were told that all the armenians were being gathered at the sk club and at the city party committee. they took us there. on the way i asked them to stop at the maternity home: i wanted to take karina with me. i didn't know what was happening there. they told me, "don't worry, the maternity home is full of soldiers, more than mothers-to-be. so you can rest assured. i say, "well, i won't rest assured regardless, because the staff in there is capable of anything." when i arrived at the city party committee it turned out that karina had already been brought there. they had seen fit to release her from the hospi- tal, deciding that she felt fine and was no longer in need of any care. once we were in the city party committee we gave free reign to our tears. we met acquaintances, but everyone was somehow divided into two groups, those who hadn't been injured, who were clothed, who had brought a pot of food with them, and so on, and those, like me, like raya, who were wearing whatever had come their way. there were even people who were all made up, dolled up like they had come from a wedding. there were people without shoes, naked people, hungry people, those who were crying, and those who had lost someone. and of course the stories and the talk were flying: "oh, i heard that they killed him!" "what do you mean they killed him!" "he stayed at work!" "do you know what's happening at this and such a plant? talk like that. and then i met aleksandr mikhailovich gukasian, the teacher. i know him very well and respect him highly. i've known him for a long time. they had a small room, well really it was more like a study-room. we spent a whole night talking in that study once. on march 1 we heard that bagirov [first secretary of the communist party of azerbaijan ssr] had arrived. everyone ran to see bagirov, what news he had brought with him and how this was all being viewed from outside. he arrived and everyone went up to him to talk to him and ask him things. everyone was in a tremendous rage. but he was protected by soldiers, and he went up to the second floor and didn't deign to speak with the people. apparently he had more important things to do. several hours passed. gukasian called me and says, "lyudochka, find another two or three. we're going to make up lists, they asked for them upstairs, lists of the dead, those whose whereabouts are unknown, and lists of people who had pogroms of their apartments and of those whose cars were burned." i had about 50 people in my list when they called me and said, "lyuda, your mamma has arrived, she's looking for you, she doesn't believe that you are alive and well and that you're here." i gave the lists to someone and asked them to continue what i was doing and went off. the list was imprecise, of course. it included grant adamian, raya tovmasian's father, who was alive, but at the time they thought him dead. there was engels grigorian's father and aunt, cherkez and maria. the list also included the name of my girlfriend and neighbor, zhanna agabekian. one of the guys said that he had been told that they chopped her head off in the courtyard in front of the kosmos movie theater. we put her on the list too, and cried, but later it turned out that that was just a rumor, that in fact an hour earlier she had somehow left sumgait for the marina and from there had set sail for krasnovodsk, where, thank god, she was alive and well. i should also say that in addition to those who died that list contained people who were rumored missing or who were so badly wounded that they were given up for dead. 3 all the lists were taken to bagirov. i don't remember how many dead were contained in the list, but it's a fact that when gukasian came in a couple of minutes later he was cursing and was terribly irate. i asked, "what's going on?" he said, "lyuda, can you imagine what animals, what scoundrels they are! they say that they lost the list of the dead. piotr demichev [member of the politburo of the central committee of the communist party of the ussr] has just arrived, and we were supposed to submit the list to him, so that he'd see the scope of the slaughter, of the tragedy, whether it was one or fifty." they told him that the list had disappeared and they should ask everyone who hadn't left for the khimik boarding house all over again. there were 26 people on our second list. i think that the number 26 was the one that got into the press and onto television and the radio, because that's the list that demichev got. i remember exactly that there were 26 people on the list, i had even told aleksandr mikhailovich that that was only a half of those that were on the first list. he said, "lyuda, please, try to remember at least one more." but i couldn't remember anyone else. but there were more than 30 dead. of that i am certain. the government and the procuracy don't count the people who died of fright, like sick people and old people whose lives are threatened by any shock. they weren't registered as victims of the sumgait tragedy. and then there may be people we didn't know. so many people left sumgait between march 1 and 8! most of them left for smaller towns in russia, and especially to the northern caucasus, to stavropol, and the krasnodarsk territory. we don't have any information on them. i know that there are people who set out for parts around moscow. in the periodical krestyanka [woman farmer] there was a call for people who know how to milk cows, and for mechanics, and drivers, and i know a whole group of people went to help out. also clearly not on our list are those people who died entering the city, who were burned in their cars. no one knows about them, except the azerbaijanis, who are hardly likely to say anything about it. and there's more. a great many of the people who were raped were not included in the list drawn up at the procuracy. i know of three instances for sure, and i of course don't know them all. i'm thinking of three women whose parents chose not to publicize what had happened, that is, they didn't take the matter to court, they simply left. but in so doing they didn't cease being victims. one of them is the first cousin of my classmate kocharian. she lived in microdistrict no. 8, on the fifth floor. i can't tell you the building number and i don't know her name. then comes the neighbor of one of my relatives, she lived in microdistrict 1 near the gift shop. i don't know her name, she lives on the same landing as the sumgait procurator. they beat her father, he was holding the door while his daughter hid, but he couldn't hold the door forever, and when she climbed over the balcony to the neighbors' they seized her by her braid. like the azerbaijanis were saying, it was a very cultured mob, because they didn't kill anyone, they only raped them and left. and the third one . . . i don't remember who the third one was anymore. they transferred us on march 1. karina still wasn't herself. yes, we lived for days in the sk, in the cultural facility, and at the khimik. they lived there and i lived at the city party committee because i couldn't stay with karina; it was too difficult for me, but i was at peace: she had survived. i could already walk, but really it was honest words that held me up. thanks to the social work i did there, i managed to persevere. aleksandr mikhailovich said, "if it weren't for the work i would go insane." he and i put ourselves in gear and took everything upon ourselves: someone had an infant and needed diapers and free food, and we went to get them. the first days we bought everything, although we should have received it for free. they were supposed to have been dispensed free of charge, and they sold it to us. then, when we found out it was free, we went to krayev. at the time, fortunately, you could still drop by to see him like a neighbor, all the more so since everything was still clearly visible on our faces. krayev sent a captain down and he resolved the issue. on march 2 they sent two investigators to see us: andrei shirokov and vladimir fedorovich bibishev. the way it worked out, in our family they had considered only karina and me victims, maybe because she and i wound up in the hospital. mother and father are considered witnesses, but not victims. shirokov was involved with karina's case, and bibishev, with mine. after i told him everything, he and i planned to sit down with the identikit and record everyone i could remember while everything was still fresh in my mind. we didn't work with the identikit until the very last day because the conditions weren't there. the investigative group worked slowly and did poor quality work solely because the situation wasn't conducive to working: there weren't enough automobiles, especially during the time when there was a curfew, and there were no typewriters for typing transcripts, and no still or video cameras. i think that this was done on purpose. we're not so poor that we can't supply our investigators with all that stuff. it was done especially to draw out the investigation, all the more so since the local authorities saw that the armenians were leaving at the speed of light, never to return to sumgait. and the armenians had a lot to say i came to an agreement with bibishev, i told him myself, "don't you worry, if it takes us a month or two months, i'll be here. i'm not afraid, i looked death in the eyes five times in those two days, i'll help you conduct the investigation." he and i worked together a great deal, and i used this to shelter karina, i gave them so much to do that for a while they didn't have the time to get to her, so that she would at least have a week or two to get back to being her- self. she was having difficulty breathing so we looked for a doctor to take x- rays. she couldn't eat or drink for nine days, she was nauseous. i didn't eat and drank virtually nothing for five days. then, on the fifth day, when we were in baku already, the investigator told me, "how long can you go on like this? well fine, so you don't want to eat, you don't love yourself, you're not taking care of yourself, but you gave your word that you would see this investigation through. we need you." then i started eating, because in fact i was exhausted. it wasn't enough that i kept seeing those faces in our apart- ment in my mind, every day i went to the investigative solitary confinement cells and prisons. i don't know . . . we were just everywhere! probably in every prison in the city of baku and in all the solitary confinement cells of sumgait. at that time they had even turned the drunk tank into solitary thus far i have identified 31 of the people who were in our apartment. mamma identified three, and karina, two. the total is 36. marina didn't identify anyone, she remembers the faces of two or three, but they weren't among the photographs of those detained. i told of the neighbor i recognized. the one who went after the axe. he still hasn't been detained, he's still on the loose. he's gone, and it's not clear if he will be found or not. i don't know his first or last name. i know which building he lived in and i know his sisters' faces. but he's not in the city. the investigators informed me that even if the investigation is closed and even if the trial is over they will continue looking for him. the 31 people i identified are largely blue-collar workers from various plants, without education, and of the very lowest level in every respect. mostly their ages range from 20 to 30 years; there was one who was 48. only one of them was a student. he was attending the azerbaijan petroleum and chemical institute in sumgait, his mother kept trying to bribe the investiga- tor. once, thinking that i was an employee and not a victim, she said in front of me "i'll set you up a restaurant worth 500 rubles and give you 600 in cash simply for keeping him out of armenia," that is, to keep him from landing in a prison on armenian soil. they're all terribly afraid of that, because if the investigator is talking with a criminal and the criminal doesn't confess even though we identified him, they tell him--in order to apply psychological pressure--they say, "fine, don't confess, just keep silent. when you're in an armenian prison, when they find out who you are, they'll take care of you in short order." that somehow gets to them. many give in and start to talk. the investigators and i were in our apartment and videotaped the entire pogrom of our apartment, as an investigative experiment. it was only then that i saw the way they had left our apartment. even without knowing who was in our apartment, you could guess. they stole, for example, all the money and all the valuables, but didn't take a single book. they tore them up, burned them, poured water on them, and hacked them with axes. only the materials from the 27th congress of the communist party of the soviet union and james fenimore cooper's last of the mohigans. oh yes, lunch was ready, we were boiling a chicken, and there were lemons for tea on the table. after they had been in our apartment, both the chicken and the lemons were gone. that's enough to tell you what kind of people were in our apartment, people who don't even know anything about books. they didn't take a single book, but they did take worn clothing, food, and even the cheapest of the cheap, worn-out of those whom i identified, four were kafan azerbaijanis living in sumgait. basically, the group that went seeking "revenge"--let's use their word for it--was joined by people seeking easy gain and thrill-seekers. i talked with one of them. he had gray eyes, and somehow against the back-drop of all that black i remembered him specifically because of his of his eyes. besides taking part in the pogrom of our apartment, he was also involved in the murder of tamara mekhtiyeva from building 16. she was an older armenian who had recently arrived from georgia, she lived alone and did not have anyone in sumgait. i don't know why she had a last name like that, maybe she was married to an azerbaijani. i had laid eyes on this woman only once or twice, and know nothing about her. i do know that they murdered her in her apartment with an axe. murdering her wasn't enough for them. they hacked her into pieces and threw them into the tub with water. i remember another guy really well too, he was also rather fair-skinned. you know, all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark, both their hair and their skin. and in contrast with them, in addition to the grey- eyed one, i remember this one fellow, the one l took to be a lezgin. i identified him. as it turned out he was eduard robertovich grigorian, born in the city of sumgait, and he had been convicted twice. one of our own. how did i remember him? the name rita was tattooed on his left or right hand. i kept thinking, is that rita or "puma," which it would be if you read the word as latin characters instead of cyrillic, because the cyrillic "t" was the one that looks like a latin "m." when they led him in he sat with his hands behind his back. this was at the confrontation. he swore on every holy book, tried to put in an armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion, and told me that i was making a mistake, and called me "dear sister." he said, "you're wrong, how could i, an armenian, raise my hand against my own, an armenian," and so on. he spoke so convincingly that even the investigator asked me, "lyuda, are you sure it was he?" i told him, "i'll tell you one more identifying mark. if i'm wrong i shall apologize and say i was mistaken. the name rita is tattooed on his left or right hand." he went rigid and became pale. they told him, "put your hands on the table." he put his hands on the table with the palms up. i said, "now turn your hands over," but he didn't turn his hands over. now this infuriated me. if he had from the very start acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn't wanted to do it, that they forced him or something else, i would have treated him somewhat differently. but he insolently stuck to his story, "no, i did not do anything, it wasn't me." when they turned his hands over the name rita was in fact tattooed on his hand. his face distorted and he whispered something wicked. i immediately flew into a rage. there was an ashtray on the table, a really heavy one, made out of granite or something, very large, and it had ashes and butts in it. catching myself quite by surprise, i hurled that ashtray at him. but he ducked and the ashtray hit the wall, and ashes and butts rained down on his head and back. and he smiled. when he smiled it provoked me further. i don't know how, but i jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or strangling him; i no longer remember which. when i jumped i caught the microphone cord. the investigator was there, tolya . . .i no longer recall his last name, and he says, "lyudochka, it's a japanese microphone! please . . . " and shut off all the equipment on the spot, it was all being video taped. they took him away. i stayed, and they talked to me a little to calm me down, because we needed to go on working, i only remember tolya telling me, "you're some actress! what a performance!" i said, "tolya, honestly . . . " beforehand they would always tell me, "lyuda, more emotion. you speak as calmly as if nothing had happened to you." i say, "i don't have any more strength or emotion. all my emotions are behind me now, i no longer have the strength . . . i don't have the strength to do anything." and he says, "lyuda, how were you able to do that?" and when i returned to normal, drinking tea and watching the tape, i said, "can i really have jumped over that table? i never jumped that high in gym class." so you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international. of the 36 we identified there was an armenian, a russian, vadim vorobyev, who beat mamma, and 34 azerbaijanis. at the second meeting with grigorian, when he had completely confessed his guilt, he told of how on february 27 the azerbaijanis had come knocking. among them were guys--if you can call them guys--he knew from prison. they said, "tomorrow we're going after the armenians. meet us at the bus station at three o'clock." he said, "no, i'm not coming." they told him, "if you don't come we'll kill you." he said, "alright, i'll come." and he went. they also went to visit my classmate from our microdistrict, kamo pogosian. he had also been in prison; i think that together they had either stolen a motorcycle or dismantled one to get some parts they needed. they called him out of his apartment and told him the same thing: "tomorrow we're going to get the armenians. be there." he said, "no." they pulled a knife on him. he said, "i'm not going all the same." and in the courtyard on the 27th they stabbed him several times, in the stomach. he was taken to the hospital. i know he was in the hospital in baku, in the republic hospital. if we had known about that we would have had some idea of what was to come on the 28th. i'll return to grigorian, what he did in our apartment. i remember that he beat me along with all the rest. he spoke azerbaijani extremely well. but he was very fair-skinned, maybe that led me to think that they had it out for him, too. but later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning of shagen sargisian. i don't know if he participated in the rapes in our apartment; i didn't see, i don't remember. but the people who were in our apartment who didn't yet know that he was an armenian said that he did. i don't know if he confessed or not, and i myself don't recall because i blacked out very often. but i think that he didn't participate in the rape of karina because he was in the apartment the whole time. when they carried her into the courtyard, he remained in the apartment. at one point i was talking with an acquaintance about edik grigorian. from her i learned that his wife was a dressmaker, his mother is russian, he doesn't have a father, and that he's been convicted twice. well this will be his third and, i hope, last sentence. he beat his wife, she was eternally coming to work with bruises. his wife was an armenian by the name of rita. the others who were detained . . . well they're little beasts. you really can't call them beasts, they're just little beasts. they were robots carrying out someone else's will, because at the investigation they all said, "i don't understand how i could have done that, i was out of my head." but we know that they were won around to it and prepared for it, that's why they did it. in the name of allah, in the name of the koran, in the name of propagating islam-- that's holy to them--that's why they did everything they were commanded to do. because i saw they didn't have minds of their own, i'm not talking about their level of cultural sophistication or any higher values. no education, they work, have a slew of children without the means to raise them properly, they crowd them in, like at the temporary housing, and apparently, they were promised that if they slaughtered the armenians they would receive apartments. so off they went. many of them explained their participation saying, "they promised us apartments." among them was one who genuinely repented. i am sure that he repented from the heart and that he just despised himself after the incident. he worked at a children's home, an azerbaijani, he has two children, and his wife works at the children's home too. everything that they acquired, everything that they have they earned by their own labor, and wasn't inherited from parents or grandparents. and he said, "i didn't need anything i just don't know . . . how i ended up in that; it was like some hand was guiding me. i had no will of my own, i had no strength, no masculine dignity, nothing." and the whole time i kept repeating, "now you imagine that someone did the same to your young wife right before your own eyes." he sat there and just wailed. but that leader in the eskimo dogskin coat was not detained. he performed a marvelous disappearing act, but i think that they'll get onto him, they just have to work a little, because that vadim, that boy, according to his grandfather, is in touch with the young person who taught him what to do, how to cover his tracks. he was constantly exchanging jackets with other boys he knew and those he didn't, either, and other things as well, and changed himself like a chameleon so they wouldn't get onto him, but he was detained. that one in the eskimo dogskin coat was at the gambarians' after aleksandr gambarian was murdered. he came in and said, "let's go, enough, you've spilled enough blood here." maybe karina doesn't know this but the reason they didn't finish her off was that they were hoping to take her home with them. i heard this from aunt tanya and her sons, the kasumovs, who were in the courtyard near the entryway. they liked her very much, and they had decided to take her to home with them. when karina came to at one point--she doesn't remember this yet, this the neighbors old me--and she saw that there was no one around her, she started crawling to the entryway. they saw that she was still alive and came back, they were already at the third entryway, on their way to the gambarians'. they came back and started beating her to finish her. if she had not come to she would have sustained lesser bodily injuries, they would have beat her less. an older woman from our building, aunt nazan, an azerbaijani, all but lay on top of karina, crying and pleading that they leave her alone, but they flung her off. the woman's grown sons were right nearby; they picked her up in their hands and led her home. she howled and cried out loudly and swore: god is on earth, he sees everything, and he won't forgive this. there was another woman, too, aunt fatima, a sick, aging woman from the first floor, she's already retired. mountain dwellers, and azerbaijanis, too, have a custom: if men are fighting, they throw a scarf under their feet to stop them. but they trampled her scarf and sent her home. to trample a scarf is tantamount to trampling a woman's honor. now that the investigation is going on, now that a lot is behind us and we have gotten back to being ourselves a little, i think about how could these events that are now called the sumgait tragedy happen? how did they come about? how did it start? could it have been avoided? well, it's clear that without a signal, without permission from the top leadership, it would not have happened. all the same, i'm not afraid to say this, the azerbaijanis, let other worthy people take no offense, the better representatives of their nations, let them take no offense, but the azerbaijanis in their majority are a people who are kept in line only by fear of the law, fear of retribution for what they have done. and when the law said that they could do all that, like unleashed dogs who were afraid they wouldn't have time to do everything, they threw themselves from one thing to the next so as to be able to get more done, to snatch a bit more. the smell of the danger was already in the air on february 27. you could tell that something was going to happen. and everyone who had figured it out took steps to avoid running into those gangs. many left for their dachas, got plane tickets for the other end of the country, just got as far away as their legs would carry them. february 27 was a saturday. i was teaching my third class. the director came into my classroom and said that i should let the children out, that there had been a call from the city party committee asking that all teachers gather for a meeting at lenin square. well, i excused the children, and there were few teachers left at school, altogether three women, the director, and six or seven men. the rest had already gone home. we got to lenin square and there were a great many people there. this was around five-thirty or six in the evening, no later. they were saying all kinds of rubbish up on the podium and the crowd below was supporting them stormily, roaring. they spoke over the microphone about what had happened in kafan a few days earlier and that the driver of a bus going to some district had recently thrown a small azerbaijani child off the bus. the speaker affirmed that he was an eyewitness, that he had seen it himself..the crowd started to rage: "death to the armenians! they must be killed!" then a woman went up on stage. i didn't see the woman because people were clinging to the podium like flies. i could only hear her. the woman introduced herself as coming from kafan, and said that the armenians cut her daughters' breasts off, and called, "sons, avenge my daughters!" that was enough. a portion of the people on the square took off running in the direction of the factories, toward the beginning of lenin street. we stood there about an hour. then the director of school 25 spoke, he gave a very nationalist speech. he said, "brother muslims, kill the armenians!" this he repeated every other sentence. when he said this the crowd supported him stormily, whistling and shouting "karabagh!" he said, "karabagh has been our territory my whole life long, karabagh is my soul. how can you tear out my heart?" as though an azerbaijani would die without karabagh. "it's our territory, the armenians will never see it. the armenians must be eliminated. from time immemorial muslims have cleansed the land of infidel armenians, from time immemorial, that's the way nature created it, that every 20 to 30 years the azerbaijanis should cleanse the land of filth." by filth he meant i heard this. before that i hadn't been listening to the speeches closely. many people spoke and i stood with my back to the podium, talking shop with the other teachers, and somehow it all went right by, it didn't penetrate, that in fact something serious was taking place. then, when one of our teachers said, "listen to what he's saying, listen to what idiocy he's spouting," we listened. that was the speech of that director. before that we listened to the woman's speech. right then in our group--there were nine of us--the mood changed, and the subject of conversation and all school matters were forgotten. our director of studies, for whom i had great respect, he's an azerbaijani . . . before that i had considered him an upstanding and worthy person, if there was a need to obtain leave we had asked him, he seemed like a good person. so he tells me, "lyuda, you know that besides you there are no armenians on the square? if they find out that you're an armenian they'll tear you to pieces. should i tell them you're an armenian? should i tell them you're an armenian?" when he said it the first time i pretended not to hear it, and then he asked me a second time. i turned to the director, khudurova, and said that it was already after eight, i was expected at home, and i should be leaving. she answered, "no, they said that women should stay here until ten o'clock,.and men, until twelve. stay here." there was a young teacher with us, her children were in kindergarten and her husband worked shifts. she asked to leave: "i left my children at the kindergarten." the director excused her. when she let her go i turned around, said, "good-bye," and left with the young teacher, the azerbaijani. i didn't see them after that. when we were walking the buses weren't running, and a crowd from the rally ran nearby us. they had apparently gotten all fired up. it must have become too much for them, and they wanted to seek vengeance immediately, so they rushed off. i wasn't afraid this time because i was sure that the other teacher wouldn't say that i was an armenian. to make it short, we reached home. then karina told of how they had been at the movies and what had happened there. i started telling of my experience and again my parents didn't understand that we were in danger. we watched television as usual, and didn't even imagine that tomorrow would be our last day. that's how it all was. at the city party committee i met an acquaintance, we went to school together, zhanna, i don't remember her last name, she lives above the housewares store on narimanov street. she was there with her father, for some reason she doesn't have a mother. the two of them were at home alone. while her father held the door she jumped from the third floor, and she was lucky that the ground was wet and that there wasn't anyone behind the building when she went out on the balcony, there was no one there, they were all standing near the entryway. that building was also a lucky one in that there were no murders there. she jumped. she jumped and didn't feel any pain in the heat of the moment. a few days later i found out that she couldn't stand up, she had been injured somehow. that's how people in sumgait saved their lives, their honor, and their children: any way they could. where it was possible, the armenians fought back. my father's first cousin, armen m., lives in block 30. they found out by phone from one of the victims what was going on in town. the armenians in that building all called one another immediately and all of them armed themselves with axes, knives, even with muskets and went up to the roof. they took their infants with them, and their old women who had been in bed for god knows how many months, they got them right out of their beds and took everyone upstairs. they hooked electricity up to the trap door to the roof and waited, ready to fight. then they took the daughter of the school board director hostage, she's an azerbaijani who lived in their building. they called the school board director and told her that if she didn't help them, the 17 armenians on the roof, to escape alive and unharmed, she'd never see her daughter again. i'm sure, of course, that armenians would never lay a hand on a woman, it was just the only thing that could have saved them at the time. she called the police. the armenians made a deal with the local police to go into town. two armored personnel carriers and soldiers were summoned they surrounded the entryway and led everyone down from the roof, and off to the side from the armored personnel carriers was a crowd that was on its way to the building at that very moment, into block 30. that's how they defended themselves. i heard that our neighbors, roman and sasha gambarian, resisted. they're big, strong guys. their father was killed. and i heard that the brothers put up a strong defense and lost their father, but were able to save their mother. one of the neighbors told me that after it happened, when they were looking for the criminals on march 1 to 2 and detaining everyone they suspected, people hid people in our entryway, maybe people who were injured or perhaps dead. the neighbors themselves were afraid to go there, and when they went with the soldiers into our basement they are supposed to have found azerbaijani corpses. i don't know how many. even if they had been wounded and put down there, after two days they would have died from loss of blood or infection--that basement was filled with water. i heard this from the neighbors. and later when i was talking with the investigators the subject came up and they confirmed it. i know, too, that for several hours the basement was used to store objects stolen from our apartment. and our neighbor carried out our carpet, along with the rest: he stole it for himself, posing as one of the criminals. everyone was taking his own share, and the neighbor took his, too, and carried it home. and when we came back, when everything seemed to have calmed down, he returned it, saying that it was the only thing of ours he had managed to "save." raya's husband and father defended themselves. the trdatovs defended themselves, and so did other armenian families. to be sure there were azerbaijani victims, although we'll never hear anything about them. for some reason our government doesn't want to say that the armenians were not just victims, but that they defended the honor of their sisters and mothers, too. in the tv show "pozitsiya" [viewpoint] a military man, an officer, said that the armenians did virtually nothing to defend themselves. but that's not important, the truth will come out regardless. so that's the price we paid those three days. for three days our courage, our bravery, and our humanity was tested. it was those three days, and not the years and dozens of years we had lived before them, that showed what we've become, what we grew up to be. those three days showed who was who. on that i will conclude my narrative on the sumgait tragedy. it should be said that it's not over yet, the trials are still ahead of us, and the punishments received by those who so violated us, who wanted to make us into nonhumans will depend on our position and on the work of the investigators, the procuracy, and literally of every person who lent his hand to the investiga- tion. that's the price we paid to live in armenia, to not fear going out on the street at night, to not be afraid to say we're armenians, and to not fear speaking our native tongue. october 15,1988 - - - reference for #008 - - - [1] _the sumgait tragedy; pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan, volume i, eyewitness accounts_, edited by samuel shahmuradian, forward by yelena bonner, 1990, published by aristide d. caratzas, ny, pages 118-145 david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "how do we explain turkish troops on s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | the armenian border, when we can't p.o. box 382761 | even explain 1915?" cambridge, ma 02238 | turkish mp, march 1992 
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 dear folks, i am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment. it is a fact that the inhabitants of gaza are not entitled to a normal civlized life. they habe been kept under occupation by israel since 1967 without civil and political rights. it is a fact that gazans live in their own country, palestine. gaza is not a foriegn country. nor is telaviv, jaffa, askalon, beersheba foreign country for gazans. all these places are occupied as far as palestinians are concerned and as far as common sense has it. it is a fact that zionists deny gazans equal rights as israeli citizens and the right to determine by themsevles their government. when zionists will begin to consider gazans as human beings who deserve the same rights as themselves, there will be hope for peace. not before. somebody mentioned that gaza is 'foreign country' and therefore israel is entitled to close its borders to gaza. in this case, gaza should be entitled to reciprocate, and deny israeli civilians and military personnel to enter the area. as the relation is not symmetrical, but that of a master and slave, the label 'foreign country' is inaccurate and misleading. to close off 700,000 people in the strip, deny them means of subsistence and means of defending themselves, is a collective punishment and a crime. it is neither justifiable nor legal. it just reflects the abyss to which israeli society has degraded. i would like to ask any of those who heap foul langauge on me to explain why israel denies gazans who were born and brought up in jaffa to return and live there ? would they be allowed to, if they converted to judaism ? is their right to live in their former town depdendent upon their religion or ethnic origin ? please give an honest answer. 
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 [hamid] anybody has any information about the number of the people have been [hamid] killed by israel during these 44 happy year? does anybody know how many jews, arabs, christians and others have died in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to arab rhetoric and rejectionism? the number is probably close to 100,000 at least. all these lives wasted because the arabs did not accept the partition plan in 1947. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum? it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others. heck, nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today. seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs, so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does. there is one big difference between israel and the arabs, christians in this israel allows freedom of religion. for your information, islam permits freedom of religion - there is no compulsion in religion. does judaism permit freedom of religion (i.e. are non-jews recognized in judaism). just wondering. 
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 |not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of count |bernadotte, who was _the_ un negotiator during the 1948 israeli war of |independence. he was killed by the israelis. seems he was being too |successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked |territorially against the nascent israel, compared to continued war. that operation was done by a small jewish fraction before the state even existed and, as far as i remember, was disaproved by most of the jews. saying that "he was killed by the israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't "israel" at the time. look up the facts first, post second. bernadotte was assassinated in september 1948 by lehi under the orders of its three commanders (one of whom was yitzhak shamir). there is no hard evidence of complicity of the israeli government despite some effort by the un and other organizations (us intelligence, swedish government) to find it. however a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of zeal of the israeli government to track down the killers. the lehi man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend of david ben-gurion. the best published account in english is a. ilan, bernadotte in palestine, 1948 (macmillan, 1989). --amos shapira (jumper extraordinaire) 
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 i said: besides, there's no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, liberia, angola, or (it appears with the khmer rouge's new campaign) cambodia. non-whites don't count? hmm...some might say kuwaitis are non-white. ooops, i forgot, kuwaitis are "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count. ...and let's not forget somalia, which is about as far from white as it not according to reports i have read. it seems that the somalis think of our african american marines in less than complimentary terms, using gestures that signify a word i refuse to use. seems that even when you try to help people, they still insult you. that's two in a row, care to try for more? 
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 # well said mr. beyer :) he-he. the great humanist speaks. one has to read mr. salah's posters, in which he decribes jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps promising the "final battle" between muslims and jews (in which the stons and the trees will "cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved. and now he is posting lies about benjamin franklin in talk.politics.misc. seems our mr. salah will stoop to any level (or is that *climb*) to spread his hate. -danny keren. 
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 i would like to share with netters a few points i picked up from the pbs frontline program regarding iran's nuclear activities, aired on tuesday april 13. for the sake of brevity, i'll present them in some separate already say it the other week on cbc snoozeworld 1- as many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the program on the viewer. some of the misinformations were as follows: yeah, i thought bonanza was full of lies about the west... - while the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against iraqi aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that iran and iraq had a total of one million dead, this program claims that iran alone has one million dead left from the war. - the translation of iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. for example when iranian head of atomic energy says that: " it hurts me to see that iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." the translator says: " it hurts to see that iran is doing unfriendly research."! 2- almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought by iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to iran's big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in near future and its current deficit in electrical power. why the hell would such an oil rich (and hydroelectric potential to be exploited) spend billions on a nuclear energy programme? 3- the whole program is trying to show the sharif university of technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the program know well that in a country like iran without a so tightly closed society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! taking in account the scientific advancement of sharif u. in engineering fields and its potential role in improvement of iran's industries and eventually the lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones in scientific and industrial efforts. 4- a key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as much as possible all efforts done by iaea [*] in their numerous visits from iran's different sites. they say: "we are not sure if the places visited by iaea are the real ones or not" !, or " we can not rely on iaea's reports and observation, because they failed to see iraq's nuclear activities before" as if they didn't know that iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons! yeah, and we have every reason in the world to trust the iranian regime. after all, they've been *so* forward with us in the past.... 5- as an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the program was the arrogance of the member of us senate foreign affairs, william triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking from the absolute knowledge! maybe he *is* god! i hope all iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their country in western media, and i hope iranian authorities continue to their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations. hahahahahahaahah! [*] international atomic energy agency 
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 |> >in article <1993apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hamid reza you deliberately deleted a line! i don't remember how wrote it, but i remember what he wrote. he wrote happy 45 birth day of israel! and i worte: |> >[hamid] anybody has any information about the number of the people have been |> >[hamid] killed by israel during these 44 happy year? |> not sure. but the number of israelis killed defending israel is a little more |> than 17,000 in the last 45 years and 61,000 injured. is this means that the number of the people have been killed by israel are so high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of zionism ideology that you don't need to keep the track of the people you kill? just kill! |> you must try to make a mockery out of everything, don't you? pathetic. |> ed. 
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 hey, i want my posts forwarded too. i can't get my sysadmin to pay any attention to me. 
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 i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles. this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism. ok, you've already disqualified yourself (who ever you are) from being objective. you all are an insult to you race! {assuming you are also semitic} jews are a people with a common cultural heritage, religion, and history. we are not a race. now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the 1930's and 1940's. the hirgun, and other branch - off militant groups, did fight the british do get them out of palestine. yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs. these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british you don't see a difference between killing british soldiers (who were preventing jews who tried to escape the nazis from entering the british mandate) and arab terrorist who kill civilian men, women, and children?!? i mention this not because i'm anti semitic [i'm part jewish] that's ridiculuous on atleast two counts. first of all, even if you identify yourself as completely jewish that doesn't rule out the possibility that you're a self-hating anti-semite. one can always find jews who are uncomfortable with their identities (since they only want jews to be cowering victims) and are willing to speak up for their enemies. secondly, the strength or weakness of your arguments does not depend on your identity. -adam schwartz (not affraid to sign my name). 
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 diaspora 'a cancer' ------------------- by julian kossoff and lindsay schusman in: jewish chronicle, london, 22. dec. 1989 leading israeli author and cultural commentator, a.b. yehoshua, launched a ferocious attack on diaspora jewry at a zionist youth council meeting in north london, last week. the diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main tissue of the jewish people". he was scathing about its failure to act before the holocaust. [ deleted for bravity ] jewish values in israel embraced every aspect of daily life, unlike in the diaspora, where jews had no responsibility for the country they lived in, he said. he warned that modern hebrew, a unifying force for the jewish people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in literary circles. it faced fierce competition from the english --amos --amos shapira (jumper extraordinaire) | "it is true that power corrupts, c.s. system group, hebrew university, | but absolute power is better!" jerusalem 91904, israel | amoss@cs.huji.ac.il | -- the demon to his son 
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 that "federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet, to house homeless americans. jim@specialix.com (jim maurer) responds: why don't you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned? jack schmidling (arf@genesis.mcs.com) reveals the true depths of his cynicism: i do (did) contribute to the arf mortgage fund but when interest rates plumetted, i just paid it off. the problem is, i couldn't convince congress to move my home to a nicer location on federal land. in other words, mr. schmidling could care less for the plight of the homeless, but is not above using them to score points for his agenda. harry katz 
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 the gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks. another cpr non-fact. the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel. actually, they are free to leave and seek work in egypt, except that the egyptians don't want them, either. and who are you going to blame if/when gazans establish their own state of gaza/palestine? while polish non-jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto, no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance. the only help given to gazans by israeli jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance. actually, one such jew who did risk his life to help gazan arabs was hacked to death by palestinean murderers just last week. it seems that the risk has been primarily from the arabs "in need of help". this is also true for telephone repairmen, traders who seek to buy agricultural products from gazans, israeli soldiers who get involved in fighting between feuding palestinean groups that are as determined to destroy each other as they are to destroy outsiders... the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice. a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors. i just wanna see you try this here in the usa. you know what's going to happen. as is known, the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel, although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels, shops and fields. many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel. they may not live there, for these areas are reserved for the master race. okay. that's enough. i'm not going to read this posting of yours any elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti-semitism is impossible. zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti-semitism, namely that jews cannot live with non- jews. that's why the zionists decided that zion must be gentile-rein. what?! they didn't?! you mean to tell me that the early zionists actually granted citizenship in the jewish state to christian and muslim people, too? it seems, elias, that your "first point to note" is wrong, so the rest of your posting isn't worth much, either. ta ta... jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 virginia.edu is true to its founding father, thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom of speach. thomas jefferson is rolling over in his grave because the university is making rules about sex. doesn't uva also have a hate crimes rule on the books? adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 | and in 1982 the attack was a response |> [sb] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan |> [sb] heights. children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel |> [sb] finally retaliated. nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that |> [sb] the borders could be expanded. |> i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs. were not shelling |> israel from the golan heights in 1982, but rather from lebanon. i would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border, starting from the early 70's. certainly the plo did shell northern israel from the arqoub region, but israel did much more shelling destroying several south lebanese villages. at the very least we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional aerial raids by israel on lebanese villages. in any case steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in response to years of shelling from lebanon is false. israel had many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government in lebanon favorable to israel, and it nearly achieved this aim with the election of basheer el gemayel, and his brother, amin el gemayel, but the internal situation in lebanon was too hard to control and predict so israel had to withdraw, and amin el gemayel had to abrogate the 17 th of may agreement. |> tsiel |> ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ |> tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me |> employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. |> opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 this is such bullshit. deir yassin was an unprovoked attack on the part of the jews, and a massacre defines it best in my opinion. the village of deir yassin had had a pact with the jews, a peace pact, but the irgun purposely broke this agreement in order to scare off the palestinians. i might grant that this village housed armed arabs [i doubt it] but nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that this was a motivating force amongst the irgun. the deir yassin massacre was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the palestinians to flee the jewish homeland.,...and contrary to your belief, many civilians were killed. deir yassin was later advertized by the very jews who perpetrated it because it was useful in getting many palestinians to leave. the palestinians were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another deir yassin. i'm not necessarily condemning the israelites here; atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the arabs. israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are and were the good guys in the middle east. both arab and jew suck equally. rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the irgun to attack dir yassin was its strategic importance. in fact, begin, who was in charge of the irgun, wrote that dir yassin was attacked for its military significance. dir yassin was merely a battle in the war of liberation. people died. but the thing was never intended to be a masacre. that this hapenned is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the irgun. 
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 what is a shame is that in austria, daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away. after all, look how the jews are treating other races when they got power. it is unfortunate. this can be turned around. the austrians who should feel guilty about their actions during wwii, but don't, justify their anti-semetism by making every israeli action into an atrocity. the austrians, germans and other europeans have extensive trading relations with the arab block; being pro-arab is good for business. i don't think that ethics has a thing to do about it. richard thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu 
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 can someone elaborate a little on what this "libertarian" movement is? i am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far i recall two self-described "libertarians" posting here. both seems to be: 1) incredibly ignorant. 2) incredibly arrogant. 3) all they want is to get people angry. 4) posses a lousy sense of humor. 5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical connection between topics. 6) describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything in their posters points to the opposite. 7) very childish. the libertarians believe in getting the government off the backs of the people, so that the free market can solve problems. libertarians believe in an end to the welfare state, an end to government subsidies of all sorts. the basic idea is that the government is way too big and way too expensive, and should be shrunk down to a reasonable size. they also believe in a complete end to foreign aid, including the stationing of american troops overseas. we can not and should not be policing the world. i agree that the people who come into this group and describe themselves as libertarians seem to posses the charictaristics you describe, but heck, we're not all like this. i'm a libertarian, and i've got a great sense of humor! :) adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 |> israel - happy 45th birthday! anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed by israel during these 44 happy year? what's this? another idiot from mcrcim.mcgill.edu? or are these all the same dope using different accounts? jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 from israeline 4/27/93 peace talks resume today; israel to offer palestinians new israel radio, kol yisrael, reports on today's resumption in washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which lasted over four months. according to the report, israel is expected to offer the palestinians new proposals regarding the authority of the palestinian executive council, general elections, control over land and human rights issues in the territories. israel will express its readiness to give the palestinians control of more land than previously offered. according to the radio report, one estimate is that israel will give the palestinians control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as well as broad authority on water issues. israel will seek to promote its offer to hold elections in the territories in hopes of strengthening the position of the palestinian delegation to the peace negotiations. according to israel radio, the israeli delegation to the bilateral talks with the palestinians will offer greater responsibilities to the palestinian executive council allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a symbol for palestinian sovereignty. u.s. secretary of state warren christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering tonight. it will be the first such event since the madrid conference. head of the american team at the bilateral peace talks, edward djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to demonstrate the u.s.' active role in the peace process. naftaly stramer | intergraph electronics internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com | 6101 lookout road, suite a voice: (303)581-2370 fax: (303)581-9972 | boulder, co 80301 "quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can." 
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 peace talks resume today; israel to offer palestinians new israel radio, kol yisrael, reports on today's resumption in washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which lasted over four months. according to the report, israel is expected to offer the palestinians new proposals regarding the authority of the palestinian executive council, general elections, control over land and human rights issues in the territories. israel will express its readiness to give the palestinians control of more land than previously offered. according to the radio report, one estimate is that israel will give the palestinians control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as well as broad authority on water issues. israel will seek to promote its offer to hold elections in the territories in hopes of strengthening the position of the palestinian delegation to the peace negotiations. according to israel radio, the israeli delegation to the bilateral talks with the palestinians will offer greater responsibilities to the palestinian executive council allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a symbol for palestinian sovereignty. u.s. secretary of state warren christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering tonight. it will be the first such event since the madrid conference. head of the american team at the bilateral peace talks, edward djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to demonstrate the u.s.' active role in the peace process. i hope, i hope, that we can begin to involve ourselves in the issues and concerns related to this peace process. we have differing opinions, certainly, on these aspects but it is clear that we all share the hope that "resolution" of the tensions and conflict **will** happen. as we "run to the defense" of our side, there is no need to constantly involve ourselves in name-calling. all of us are regularly confused by the "other's" reactive posting because "they" spend most of the post applying "labels" and presenting slogans than in just presenting their honest views. then...when we "react", we do the same thing. do you, as i do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed? what about the particular points mentioned in the article? is what israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? does it go too far? not far enough? if you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is? tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 is this means that the number of the people have been killed by israel are so high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of zionism ideology that you don't need to keep the track of the people you kill? just kill! if you _know_ that the number is "so high", would you care to provide it? to tell you the truth, hamid, most of those killed by the israeli army were agressors who were invading or attacking israel with the intention of murdering jews and destroying the jewish state. thus, i have no sympathy for them and i really don't give a damn about how many were killed. 
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 bull shit. there is no reason in the world why we can't say that taking views analogous to the kkk's or some such organization is wrong. there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. as it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence. actually, you're wrong as well. the kkk is allowed to march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected (actually i believe the aclu won a case for them last year). morality should not be legilated in a free country like the u.s. i'll post something on tj and uva under uva for those hoos bashers. 
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 a few things about the university. it is more fun than some may admit. partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy's top party schools. but we do study and more importantly learn a lot. the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u.s. there is no hate law on the books even though they (the forces of pc) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional last year). there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed. thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights. so someone who picked on me for that is by the way, we're the man in everything. sports academics and partying. i'm sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk. i'm happy where i am and maybe i'll go to one of y'alls medical schools in a couple of years. oh my god. my spelling and grammer suck. i guess i need some sleep. i said righting (instead of writing). what's the chance of that. thank god i caught it before everyone started picking on it. i hope i didn't cause mr.jefferson too much shame. 
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 bull shit. there is no reason in the world why we can't say that taking views analogous to the kkk's or some such organization is wrong. there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. as it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence. i think the answer to mr. mayamsky's question can be found in the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(mr. mamaysky's) first amendment to the us constitution. amendment i (1791) congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. i do not say that freedom of speech should be banned. far from it. i am merely suggesting that there are certain things which can be universally agreed to be morally incorrect. there are not many such things. but there are some. as an example: (1) murder is morally incorrect (2) the idea that one group of people is somehow racially inferior to another is morally incorrect the point is that any action which serves to promote a morally incorrect action should be forbidden. this implies that no one has the right to say that an innocent person should be murdered. regardless of freedom of speech, i may not stand on a street corner and advocate the murder of innocent people. the reason for this is that murder is a morally incorrect action. in the same way, since bigotry is morally incorrect in the narrow definition which we have given it, (2), i, nor any one else, has the right to stand on a street corner and promote bigotry. such an enforcement does in no way deny any one their rights as guaranteed by the first amendment. it merely ensures that no person may be the target of an attempt to deny him a fundamental moral right, such as the right to not be murdered, and the right not to be discriminated i believe, mr. berson, that to blindly accept the constitution is a terrific mistake. we must cinstantly question the constitution and interpret it in a way befitting the society in which we live. anything short of such an effort would render us little more than trained monkeys, who are able to merely repeat what they have heard without paying the slightest bit of attention to the intent of the document in would you disagree, mr.berson? 
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 well over 100,000 in lebanon alone. 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the iran/iraq conflict, even if iranians aren't arabs, strictly speaking. (they seem to hate the zionists at least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood. is there some correlation perhaps between hating israel and killing off your own people?) perhaps iranians are not arabs even not-so-strictly-speaking ? 
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 the jews that were stranded on the polish border since no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the lebenese border. no trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on guilt due to race. not due to race. due to membership in an organization which publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them -- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state, based on race. pro-choice anti-roe - e. elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare. 
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 a few things about the university. why? there is no need to go into this....... it is more fun than some may admit. partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy's top party schools. especially this rivetting piece of information. but we do study and more importantly learn a lot. the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u.s. there is no hate law on the books even though they (the forces of pc) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional last year). as i remember, someone did ask if uv had a speach code. but, really, there is no need for this brief survey course. there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed. thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights. so someone who picked on me for that is by the way, we're the man in everything. sports academics and partying. how wonderful for you. i'm sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk. i'm happy where i am and maybe i'll go to one of y'alls medical schools in a couple of years. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust. it's too bad that this useless "centre for policy research" isn't in canada. it'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace. ("andi beyer") responds: well canada is wrong. talk about generalizations. indeed, you do sound quite immature. if it was in the us the aclu would have made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional. what? the aclu fighting against an anti-hate law? you mean that the aclu would support gay-bashing, racial discrimination and anti-semitic violence? thanks, andi, for reminding us that the constitution preserves our rights to such fun activities. do you think the church didn't find galileo's perception of the universe offensive. probably, but galileo happened to be right. jews are offended by the holocaust deniers, too. the revisionists, who deny that history even happened, happen to be wrong. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 it seems that egypt is only interested in fighting wars against its own people, while objecting to any steps for bosnia.. i am not surprised, who said that mubarak represents egypt (hell he does not even represent all the criminals of egypt) islamabad (upi) -- representatives from 51 islamic nations were considering tuesday a request from bosnia-herzegovina for $260 million and weapons to fight the bosnian serbs. the only commitment so far is $20 million from saudi arabia, which thanks saudia for the pocket change. compare that to the "liberation of q8" and to what they gave to some weird causes.. o.k at least they are paying. has already donated $100 million to bosnia-herzegovina. sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement on the need to help the bosnian muslims, but the request for weapons had delayed a decision. ``it may interpreted as violating the united nations' embargo on supplying arms to bosnia,'' warned egyptian foreign minister amer mr. amr moussa was not worried about international law when he tortured to death many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a mosque, or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the cia says so. why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any bosnian effort anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an islamic conference? the more i hear about the egyptian regime, the more i understand the existence of the "jamaa islamiyah" there. after all most of its members and leaders are former and current victims of government torture, injustice, or relatives of victims. in some other places they get psychiatric care and revenge in the courts. but all they got is more of the same resulting in a cycle of madness that is initiated by the government with the illicit support of the west who is more concerned about the safety of half naked tourists in conservative neighborhoods than the dignity, social justice, and safety of the majority of the poor oppressed people of egypt. enough said. to all apologists to the u.s imperialism: watch the movie "romero" (1984) three times in a row, that might help. (or shall i say 13 times?) 
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 [tc] do you, as i do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed? [tc] what about the particular points mentioned in the article? is what [tc] israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? does it go too far? [tc] not far enough? [tc] if you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is? i personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability. unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like: anas omran, hamza saleh, jle, mohammed reza, mehmed abu-abed, anwar mohammed and others who think that jihad is the only solution. i wish that people (including myself) would have more objective views like tim, basil and shai for example and put the rhetoric aside and start discussing "substance". my view is that israel has made more gestures towards its arab foes than the opposite. what have the sysrians given to us or proposed? what have the palestinians proposed? if the palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their charter, or just condemn acts of palestinian violence that would be a good the palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. its seems though that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere. fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be too late to discuss issues with the palestinians since they will only vow for the destruction of israel. arabs must take example on egypt. egypt came to the bargaining table, got what it wanted from israel and there is now peace and cooperation between the two countries. the tougher you play ball with israel the tougher israel gets. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | if you do not receive this e-mail, please let me employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible. opinions, if any ! | two percent of zero is almost nothing. 
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 hamaza, you racist, arun cited evidence to show that your so-called racist prophecy was a 1934 forgery. that means that the "prophecy" does not exist. address the sources, if you actually care about truth, rather than spreading lies, bigotry, and hatred. ofranko. coming from a self-exposed historical revisionist, a self-admitted anti-muslim and a genocide apologist, hamaza should take your drivel as a compliment. furthermore, you even deny the obvious. there was a genocide of the muslims carried out by order of the fascist x-soviet armenian government. massacres of muslims must be studied in detail, because they are the first modern example of the horrible crime of genocide. blame must be apportioned to the armenians and their supporters for the murder of muslims. the turkish historic homeland, emptied of its native population until today, remains occupied by the x-soviet armenian government. today, x-soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity. x-soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds. the following are the jewish and armenian sources on the cold-blooded genocide perpetrated by the x-soviet armenian government against 2.5 million muslim people between 1914 and 1920. still denying the obvious? source: stanford j. shaw, on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in 1914, "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey (volume ii: reform, revolution & republic: the rise of modern turkey, 1808-1975)." (london, cambridge university press 1977). pp. 315-316. "in april 1915 dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van, whose 33,789 armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire...leaving erivan on april 28, 1915, armenian volunteers reached van on may 14 and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days." "knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions, armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims. armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state, the ottoman empire, and to assist instead other invading russian armies. their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories. armenian political leaders, army officers, and common soldiers began deserting in droves." "with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of world war i, the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman's enemy increased drastically. ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks, armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations, who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies." source: stanford j. shaw, "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey," vol ii. cambridge university press, london, 1979, pp. 314-317. "...meanwhile, czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans, with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response: 'from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army, with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms...let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus. let, with your will, great majesty, the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom. let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia.'[155] armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to st. petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul." [155] horizon, tiflis, november 30, 1914, quoted by hovannisian, "road to independence," p. 45; fo 2485, 2484/46942, 22083. "ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia, to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]" [156] hovannisian, "road to independence," pp. 45-47; bayur, iii/1, pp. 349-380; w.e.d. allen and p. muratoff, "caucasian battlefields," cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; ali ihsan sabis, "harb hahralaram," 2 vols., ankara, 1951, ii, 41-160; fo 2146 no. 70404; fo 2485; fo 2484, nos. 46942 and 22083. "an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection, and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization. an armenian legion was organized 'to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet.'[162] thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state...by mid-july there were as many as 250,000 armenians crowded into the van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than 50,000 people, muslim and non-muslim alike.[163]" [162] hovannisian, "road to independence," p. 56; fop 2488, nos. 127223 and [163] bva, meclis-i vukela mazbatalari, debates of august 15-17, 1915; babi-i ali evrak odasi, no. 175, 321, "van ihtilali ve katl-i ami," zilkade 1333/10 september 1915. source: hovannisian, richard g.: armenia on the road to independence, 1918. university of california press (berkeley and los angeles), 1967, p. 13. "the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. the estimated population of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) moslem. of the latter group, 1,140,000 were tatars. paradoxically, barely one-third of transcaucasia's armenians lived in the erevan guberniia, where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. erevan uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 armenians as compared to 68,000 moslems. by the time of the russian census of 1897, however, the armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000 inhabitants. this impressive change in the province's ethnic character notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic, a solid block of 370,000 tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts, from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia." (see also map 1. historic armenia and map 4. administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia). in 1920, '0' percent turk. "we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. our troops surrounded village after village. little resistance was offered. our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. some of the tartars escaped of course. they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey. the rest were killed. and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages. they are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead." ohanus appressian "men are like that" p. 202. "an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the u.s. in 1926 with the title 'men are like that.' other references abound." (rachel a. bortnick - the jewish times - june 21, 1990) 1."men are like that" by leonard a. hartill, bobbs co., indianapolis, memoirs of an armenian army officer translated to english and published by a member of american "near east relief organization." gives the whole account of the genocide of all turkish and moslem people in armenia organized and executed by armenian government and army. also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities against the turkish people in armenia. 2."adventures in the near east, 1918-22" by a. rawlinson, dodd, meade & co., 1925 eyewitness account of the same genocide by a british army officer. 3."world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn, crown publishers, inc., new york, 1952 another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an american 4."from sardarapat to serves and lousanne" by avetis aharonian, the armenian review magazine, volume 15 (fall 1962) through 17 (spring 1964) memoirs of the chief armenian delegate to the paris peace conference were published in the armenian review magazine in 13 articles from volume 15 (fall 1962) to volume 17 (spring 1964). these memoirs include an interview between aharonian and british foreign minister lord curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. the official report mentioned by lord curzon is the report of british high commissioner to caucasia, sir oliver wardrop. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 in one of the categories (i believe it was the number of turks feeling "european") i made a typo, which i corrected with another posting right afterwards. so what? poor 'poly'. i see you're preparing the groundwork for yet another retreat from your 'arromdian-asala/sdpa/arf' claims. hasan b. mutlu and serdar argic has been posting stuff that can only be attributed to typographical errors for the past just love it. if that does ever happen, look out the window and see if there is a non-fascist/nazi x-soviet armenian government in the east. by the way, your ignorance on the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people is hardly characteristic of most 'arromdians'. source: k. s. papazian, "patriotism perverted," baikar press, boston, 1934. pp. 17-18. "it seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent part of the revolutionary activities of the dashnag leaders of the caucasus. organized to fight the turks, these chieftains have been more successful in their fight against their armenian opponents in turkey, and the caucasus, very often defenseless and innocent." p. 38. "the fact remains, however, that the leaders of the turkish armenian section of the dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the turkish cause when the turks entered the war...and a call was sent for armenian volunteers to fight the turks on the caucasian front." p. 38. "thousands of armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as antranik, kery, dro, etc. the armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the russian army in the years of 1914-15-16." got a map? got a minute? source #1: mccarthy, j., "muslims and minorities, the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire," new york university press, new york, 1983, pp. 133-144. source #2: hovannisian, richard g., "armenia on the road to independence, 1918. university of california press (berkeley and los angeles), 1967, p. 13. now where is your non-existent list of scholars and publicly available scholarly sources; here is mine. what an 'arromdian'... some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle-eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslims 1. "the armenian revolutionary movement" by louise nalbandian, university of california press, berkeley, los angeles, 1975 2. "diplomacy of imperialism 1890-1902" by william i. lenger, professor of history, harward university, boston, alfred a. knopt, new york, 1951 3. "turkey in europe" by sir charles elliot, edward & arnold, london, 1900 4. "the chatnam house version and other middle-eastern studies" by elie kedouri, praeger publishers, new york, washington, 1972 5. "the rising crescent" by ernest jackh, farrar & reinhart, inc., new york & toronto, 1944 6. "spiritual and political evolutions in islam" by felix valyi, mogan, paul, trench & truebner & co., london, 1925 7. "the struggle for power in moslem asia" by e. alexander powell, the century co., new york, london, 1924 8. "struggle for transcaucasia" by feruz kazemzadeh, yale university press, new haven, conn., 1951 9. "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey" (2 volumes) by stanford j. shaw, cambridge university press, cambridge, new york, melbourne, 1977 10."the western question in greece and turkey" by arnold j. toynbee, constable & co., ltd., london, bombay & sydney, 1922 11."the caliph's last heritage" by sir mark sykes, macmillan & co., london, 1915 12."men are like that" by leonard a. hartill, bobbs co., indianapolis, 1928 13."adventures in the near east, 1918-22" by a. rawlinson, dodd, meade & co., 1925 14."world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn, crown publishers, inc., new york, 1952 15."from sardarapat to serves and lousanne" by avetis aharonian, the armenian review magazine, volume 15 (fall 1962) through 17 (spring 1964) 16."armenia on the road to independence" by richard g. hovanessian, university of california press, berkeley, california, 1967 17."the rebirth of turkey" by clair price, thomas seltzer, new york, 1923 18."caucasian battlefields" by w. b. allen & paul muratoff, cambridge, 1953 19."partition of turkey" by harry n. howard, h. fertig, new york, 1966 20."the king-crane commission" by harry n. howard, beirut, 1963 21."united states policy and partition of turkey" by laurence evans, john hopkins university press, baltimore, 1965 22."british documents related to turkish war of independence" by gothard 1. neside kerem demir, "bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri: turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi," hulbe basim ve yayin t.a.s., ankara, 1982. (ingilizce birinci baski: 1980, "the armenian question in turkey") 2. veysel eroglu, "ermeni mezalimi," sebil yayinevi, istanbul, 1978. 3. a. alper gazigiray, "osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari," gozen kitabevi, istanbul, 1982. 4. dr. kirzioglu m. fahrettin, "kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi," kardes matbaasi, ankara, 1970. t.c. basbakanlik osmanli arsivi, babiali, istanbul: a) yildiz esas evraki b) yildiz perakende c) irade defterleri d) cemaat-i gayr-i muslime defterleri e) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f) dahiliye nezareti, kalem-i mahsus dosyalari g) dahiliye nezareti, sifre defterleri h) babiali evrak odasi: siyasi kartonlar i) babiali evrak odasi: muhimme kartonlari t.c. disisleri bakanligi, hazine-i evrak, defterdarlik a) harb-i umumi b) muteferrik kartonlar british archives: a) parliamentary papers (hansard): commons/lords b) foreign office: confidential print: various collections c) foreign office: 424/239-253: turkey: correspondence - annual reports d) foreign office: 608 e) foreign office: 371, political intelligence: general correspondence f) foreign office: 800/240, ryan papers g) foreign office: 800/151, curzon papers h) foreign office: 839: the eastern conference: lausanne. 53 files india office records and library, blackfriars road, london. a) l/political and security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "turkey: treaty of peace: 1918-1923" b) l/p & s/10/1031, "near east: turkey and greece: lausanne conference, 1921-1923" c) l/p & s/11/154 d) l/p & s/11/1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres, quai d'orsay, paris. a) documents diplomatiques: affaires armeniens: 1895-1914 collections b) guerre: 1914-1918: turquie: legion d'orient. c) levant, 1918-1929: armenie. official publications, published documents, diplomatic correspondence, agreements, minutes and others a. turkey (the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey) akarli, e. (ed.); "belgelerle tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978). (gn. kur., atase); "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxi (81), (dec. 1982). ----; "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxii (83), (dec. 1983). hocaoglu, m. (ed.); "ittihad-i anasir-i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi," (istanbul, 1912). meray, s. l. (trans./ed.) "lozan baris konferansi: tutanaklar-belgeler," (ankara, 1978), 2 vols. meray, s. l./o. olcay (ed.); "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri; mondros birakismasi, sevr andlasmasi, ilgili belgeler," (ankara, 1977). (osmanli devleti, dahiliye nezareti); "aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane," (istanbul, 1917). ----; "ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket-i ihtilaliyesi: ilan-i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra," (istanbul, 1916). ----; "idare-i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu," (istanbul, 1913). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. i (istanbul, 1914). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. ii (istanbul, 1915). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iii (istanbul, 1916). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iv (istanbul, 1917). (osmanli devleti, hariciye nezareti); "imtiyazat-i ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname," (istanbul, 1915). (osmanli devleti, harbiye nezareti); "islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat," (istanbul, 1919). ----; (iv. ordu) "aliye divan-i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele-yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat," (istanbul, 1916). turkozu, h. k. (ed.); "osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi," (ankara, 1982). ----; "turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari," (ankara, 1985), 4 vols. adamof, e. e. (ed.); "sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani," (tran. h. rahmi, ed. h. mutlucag), (istanbul, 1972). altinay, a. r.; "iki komite - iki kital," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "turkiye'de katolik propagandasi," turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi, v. xiv/82-5 (sept. 1924). asaf muammer; "harb ve mesulleri," (istanbul, 1918). akboy, c.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi, v. i: osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi," (gn. kur., ankara, 1970). akgun, s.; "general harbord'un anadolu gezisi ve (ermeni meselesi'ne dair) raporu: kurtulus savasi baslangicinda," (istanbul, 1981). akin, i.; "turk devrim tarihi," (istanbul, 1983). aksin, s.; "jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki," (istanbul, 1976). basar, z. (ed.);"ermenilerden gorduklerimiz," (ankara, 1974). ----; "ermeniler hakkinda makaleler - derlemeler," (ankara, 1978). belen, f.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi," (ankara, 1964). deliorman, a.; "turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri," (istanbul, 1980). ege, n. n. (ed.); "prens sabahaddin: hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari," (istanbul, 1977). ercikan, a.; "ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri," (ankara, 1949). gurun, k.; 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu," (izmir, 1983). hocaoglu, m.; "arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler," (istanbul, 1976). karal, e. s.; "osmanli tarihi," v. v (1983, 4th ed.); v. vi (1976, 2nd ed.); v. vii (1977, 2nd ed.); v. viii (1983, 2nd ed.) ankara. kurat, y. t.; "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi," (ankara, 1976). orel, s./s. yuca; "ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu," (ankara, 1983). [also in english translation.] ahmad, f.; "the young turks: the committee of union and progress in turkish politics," (oxford, 1969). during the first world war and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the 20th century acted upon an entire people. this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as u.s. ambassador mark bristol, william langer, ambassador layard, james barton, stanford shaw, arthur chester, john dewey, robert dunn, papazian, nalbandian, ohanus appressian, jorge blanco villalta, general nikolayef, general bolkovitinof, general prjevalski, general odiselidze, meguerditche, kazimir, motayef, twerdokhlebof, general hamelin, rawlinson, avetis aharonian, dr. stephan eshnanie, varandian, general bronsart, arfa, dr. hamlin, boghos nubar, sarkis atamian, katchaznouni, rachel bortnick, halide edip, mccarthy, w. b. allen, paul muratoff and many j. c. hurewitz, professor of government emeritus, former director of the middle east institute (1971-1984), columbia university. bernard lewis, cleveland e. dodge professor of near eastern history, princeton university. halil inalcik, university professor of ottoman history & member of the american academy of arts & sciences, university of chicago. peter golden, professor of history, rutgers university, newark. stanford shaw, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. thomas naff, professor of history & director, middle east research institute, university of pennsylvania. ronald jennings, associate professor of history & asian studies, university of illinois. howard reed, professor of history, university of connecticut. dankwart rustow, distinguished university professor of political science, city university graduate school, new york. john woods, associate professor of middle eastern history, university of chicago. john masson smith, jr., professor of history, university of california at berkeley. alan fisher, professor of history, michigan state university. avigdor levy, professor of history, brandeis university. andreas g. e. bodrogligetti, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. kathleen burrill, associate professor of turkish studies, columbia university. roderic davison, professor of history, george washington university. walter denny, professor of history, university of massachusetts. caesar farah, professor of history, university of minnesota. tom goodrich, professor of history, indiana university of pennsylvania. tibor halasi-kun, professor emeritus of turkish studies, columbia university. justin mccarthy, professor of history, university of louisville. jon mandaville, professor of history, portland state university (oregon). robert olson, professor of history, university of kentucky. madeline zilfi, professor of history, university of maryland. james stewart-robinson, professor of turkish studies, university of michigan. .......so the list goes on and on and on..... serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 this machine of idiotism continues to swing. mr. argic/mutlu/&co is still functioning - i was surprised to find it out when i finally looked at this newsgroup. and this is just the beginning. fascist x-soviet armenian government will not get away with the genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds, and 204,000 azeri people. your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. and today, they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history. your fascist grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then. why deny them now? now the genocide of the truth by the criminal/nazi armenians? not a chance. source: "men are like that" by leonard ramsden hartill. the bobbs-merrill company, indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). (memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) "foreword:" "for example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined tartar mosque, the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border of persia and russian armenia. during the course of evening i asked ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction. in his matter of fact way he replied, yes, i assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." p. 202 (first and second paragraphs). "we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. our troops surrounded village after village. little resistance was offered. our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. some of the tartars escaped of course. they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey. the rest were killed. and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages. they are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead." p. 15 (second paragraph). "the tartars were, for the most part, poor. some of them lived in villages and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers. they drove their flocks and herds from valley to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. they ranged from the salt desert shores of the caspian sea far into the mighty caucasus mountains. even the village tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized." "i can see now that we armenians frankly despised the tartars, and, while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and treated them as inferiors. the fact that the russians looked down upon all armenians in much the same way as armenians regarded tartars, far from proving a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility." p. 20 (second paragraph). "our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the tartar section of the village. there were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred, for the tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear. our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last tartar was slain. throughout the hideous night, i cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men. by morning the work was finished." p. 109 (second paragraph). "as things were, the members of the dashnack party were without administrative experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself incompetent to rule by legitimate means. the members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and outside the law. when they became a legally instituted, recognized governing body with the destiny of armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their fight against the russian and turkish governments in their outlaw days. the outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was, as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. a man evoking the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. the method of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains. this simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became a common way of paying debts." p. 203 (first paragraph). "a soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the tartar. i saw the point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...another soldier seized a rock and pounded the tartar's head with it... the armenian who had bayoneted him sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the tartar's body, and, raising it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in russian, 'slodkey! slodkey!' (sweet.)" p. 203 (second paragraph). "one evening i passed through what had been a tartar village. among the ruins a fire was burning. i went to the fire and saw seated about it a group of soldiers. among them were two tartar girls, mere children. the girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed sobs. lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and other furnishings of tartar peasant homes. there were also bodies of the dead." p. 204 (first paragraph). "i was soon asleep. in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child. i arose and went to investigate. a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted. guided by the child's crying, i entered the yard of a house, which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family. there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead. her throat had been cut. lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a year old." p. 118. "slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart jolting and the loads swaying. boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging them with shrill tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. in the carts, the women, veiled as is the tartar way, held children in their arms. wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they sought protection from the wind and cold. a few old men plodded along on foot. across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. the leading oxteam reached this barrier and halted. the gunmen and other ruffians concealed among the rocks opened fire. women and children leaped and scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety. this massacre was not complete. the armenian soldiers in the near-by barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene.... that same day the abandoned tartar quarter of alexandropol was looted and completely destroyed." p. 192. "great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the retreat of the turks followed our army as it advanced.... they entered into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores that had been left by the turks." p. 193. "terrible vengeance was taken upon tartars, kurds and turks. their villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country." p. 195. "the fanatical dashnacks hated the turks above all others and then in order of diminishing intensity: tartars, kurds and russians." p. 218. (first and second paragraphs) "russian troops did terrible things in the turkish villages...we armenians did not spare the tartars....if persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course. i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands, and exchanging blow for blow. they had died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself." p. 133 (first paragraph) "in this movement we took with us three thousand turkish soldiers who had been captured by the russians and left on our hands when the russians abandoned the struggle. during our retreat to karaklis two thousand of these poor devils were cruelly put to death. i was sickened by the brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. some, mercifully, were shot. many of them were burned to death. the method employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after crowding the hut with turks, set fire to the straw." p. 19 (first paragraph) "the tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of ruins. it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi." p. 22 (second paragraph) "many of our men had served in the russian army, and were trained soldiers. we armenians were rich and possessed arms. tartars had never received military training. they were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives. ...shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village, the revolution in russia was suppressed." p. 97 (third paragraph) "within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible government of armenians by armenians had been established in turkish armenia in armed opposition to the turkish government. this secret government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called 'mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees." p. 98 (first paragraph) "the dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the turkish government." p. 98 (third paragraph) "...the dashnacks engineered a general revolt of armenians in turkish armenia under the mistaken belief that european nations would intervene and secure independence for turkish armenia." p. 99 (second paragraph) "the dashnacks were fanatics." p. 99 (third paragraph) "the dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their revolutionary activities into the russian province. they instituted a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing contributions to the party funds from rich armenians. a wealthy man would be assessed a stipulated sum. refusal to pay brought upon him a sentence of death. every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without question. if a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the 'mauserists' of the party." p. 130 (first paragraph) "...in moments of victory against turks and kurds or tartars, they [armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance." p. 130 (third paragraph) "the city was a scene of confusion and terror. during the early days of the war, when the russian troops invaded turkey, large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance." p. 159 (second paragraph) "i made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. i made balls for it. with my cannon the armenians could knock down any of the tartar houses and so they were able to drive the tartars out." p. 181 (first paragraph) "the tartar villages were in ruins." p. 189 (third paragraph) "the dead tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his beard still setaceous and now crimsoned." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the irgun to attack dir yassin was its strategic importance. in fact, begin, who was in charge of the irgun, wrote that dir yassin was attacked for its military significance. dir yassin was merely a battle in the war of liberation. people died. but the thing was never intended to be a masacre. that this hapenned is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the irgun. i agree with you harry, however you must also concede then that arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war. no one is forced to blow up airplanes. terrorism is a choice made by people because they do not want to work for peace. remember that the palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in order to further their cause. there are *lots* of military targets in israel. there are lots of legitamate targets in israel. old ladies, children, and civilians in general are not acceptable targets. if the only person you can kill is a civilian, you hold your fire. if that means you can't kill anyone, then you can't kill anyone. claiming that civilain targets are acceptable because they are easy kills is rediculous. if irgun had to attack civilian targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some objective, i'm sure they would have done so. did they make a policy of it? i also don't exclude irgun's action against british soldiers as terrorism. did you mean excuse? :) killing a soldier and killing a civilian are two very different acts. the british were showing signs of favoring a compromise with regards to palestine, and the irgun and branch off groups made a point to kill young british recruits so that mothers and fathers back in britain would get angry at britains continued presence in palestine. no, they killed soldiers so that the british government would leave. the objective was not to scare civilains, but show that the cost of staying was way too high. in contrast, a terrorist kills civilains to scare other civilains. they use random violence against people to make a point that no one is safe until their demands are met. an analogy would be the irgun blowing up harrods or 10 downing. sounds like a form of terrorism to me, and not much removed from arab terrorism. thats because you missed the essential point of arab terrorism, which is to scare civilains away from israel, by killing those who have something to do with israel. it is to kill jews because they might be zionists. it is to kill people who live in israel because of where they live. the targets are rarely soldiers, or other people who understand they might be attacked in the line of duty, but innocent civilians, to underscore the message that no one who deals with israel is safe. i'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but i'll favor the underdog in this case because i do think they were a bit screwed. oh, you mean you favor the israelis, outnumbered 2 to 1, outgunned, surrounded by hostile states only one of which has signed a peace treaty in 45 years? you favor the jews, people like leon klofhinger, a cripple who was thrown off a boat because he was jewish? you support the right of the jewish people to live in peace? why, thank you for your support. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 geez, i think some of these people have been too long on the net, you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent language, one wonders why so many have violent tounges... i don't know but i think he has a point. all i did was ask a lousy question and everyone started calling me names. it's all gotten out of hand. they start associating me with mengel and yassir arafat (whom by the way i think is an idiot). gosh guys lighten up and try to at least pretend to be reasonable. i still don't understand what has been so antisemitic about the stuff i posted. i think you guys are just looking to get offended and in that sense need to get a life. mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu 
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 the un has tried many times to condemn israel for its gross violation of human rights. the un has also failed to condemn gross violations of human rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east, thus leading many people to conclude that the un is biased in whom in chooses to condemn. a short, incomplete list of things the un didn't even consider condemning: incident security council response 1. hindu-moslem clash in india, over 2,000 killed, 1990 none 2. gassing to death of over 8,000 kurds by none iraqi air force, 1988-89 3. saudi security forces slaughter none 400 pilgrims in mecca, 1987 4. killing by algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988 none 5. intrafada (arabs killing arabs) -- over 300 killed none 6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama, syria, 1982 7. killing of 5,000 palestinians by jordanian troops, none thousands expelled, sept., 1970 8. 87 moslems killed in egypt, 1981 none 9. 77 killed in egyption bread riots, 1977 none 10. 30 border and rocket attacks against israel by none the plo in 1989 alone 11. munich, 1972: 11 israeli athletes slaughtered none 12. ma'alot, 1974: children killed in plo attack none 13. israel coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded none 14. syria kills 23,000 palestinians, 1976 none 15. lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975 none 16. yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986 none 17. sudan: tens of thousands of black slaves, none civil war toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees 18. tienenman square massacre 1989 none 19. rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989 none 20. pan am 103 disaster carried out by the p.l.o none 21. northern ireland none 22. cambodia none 23. soviet occupation of afghanistan none 24. american riots at attica, watts, newark, kent state none 25. 1981: israel destroys iraqi reractor, israel condemned 26. 1990: israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned against arab mob, 18 anti-jewish rioters killed 27. syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender, 1990 wow, if you were the only source of news around the world it would seem that israel is being treated unfairly. ok, you don't like what i have to say. would you care to demonstrate how the above list, or any expanded version of it you chose to post, demonstrates fairness in the actions of the un wrt luckily, that is not the case. i suggest reading european papers rather than israeli propaganda (arab papers wouldn't hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side). you make the odd assumption that i read israeli papers, not european ones. my main source of news is the economist, a london based magazine. also, i do on rare occaisons, read arab papers, but its hard to find english language papers from arab countries here. you are an example of what happens when people chose what to read. don't get me wrong, it is perfectly within your rights. just don't go off acting like you're objective. have i ever claimed to be objective? i pointed out, with a 27 item list, that israel is condemned for actions that other nations are not condemned for. you go off and attack me for reading only israeli if you'd like to debate this, please do. if you'd like to make ad hominum attacks, feel free to do that too. but try not to mask one as another. adam shostack adam@das.harvard.edu "if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure wouldn't waste them on members of congress..." -john perry barlow 
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 p.p.s. just to clear up something, i don't think than the jews are necessarily any worse than other people how generous andi. thanks for your validation. -adam schwartz 
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 islamabad (upi) -- representatives from 51 islamic nations were considering tuesday a request from bosnia-herzegovina for $260 million and weapons to fight the bosnian serbs. the only commitment so far is $20 million from saudi arabia, which thanks saudia for the pocket change. compare that to the "liberation of q8" and to what they gave to some weird causes.. o.k at least they are paying. damned if you do and damned if you don't! has already donated $100 million to bosnia-herzegovina. sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement on the need to help the bosnian muslims, but the request for weapons had delayed a decision. ``it may interpreted as violating the united nations' embargo on supplying arms to bosnia,'' warned egyptian foreign minister amer mr. amr moussa was not worried about international law when he tortured to death many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a mosque, or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the cia says so. why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any bosnian effort anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an islamic conference? just for the record, egyptian troops were one of the first to be stationed there. i can't remember the exact date but it was late last year. in fact, they lost at least one man there as far as i know. ---barrak 
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 so, mr. salah is still claiming stalin was a jew? this thread began on sca, when he and another guy claimed both stalin and lenin were jews. when i posted evidence from books and the britannica showing they were christians, someone made the (correct) remark that lenin's maternal grandfather was a jew who converted to christianity. to counter the fact that stalin was a christian who, during his youth, was trained to be a priest, mr. salah wrote "yes, it says he was trained to be a priest, but not for what religion!" (btw, stalin developed strong antisemitic feelings later in his life). mr. salah seems intent on trying to spread hate against jews by posting antisemitic forgeries and trying to "prove" that certain notorious people were jews, even if they were not. -danny keren. 
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 i don't think yigal and his friends have had as much fun for years, if ever, as they're getting over this adl business. the publicity is likely to generate some speaker's fees, too. --mark 
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 i have read numerous posts over a period of several months, by this anti-israel fanatic, hiding in the shadow of the respectable sounding name of the 'center for policy research.' obviously, it is no research center of any kind, unless 'researching' published documents to find material to use against israel makes it so. labeling a propaganda mill a research center is not surprising in itself. that is simply part of the propaganda process. i was curious if anyone knew who this anti-israel fanatic hiding behind his phoney 'research center' name is. is he an arab? is he some typical anti-semite hiding behind a veneer of 'anti-zionism?' is he some jew who perhaps lived in israel and just couldn't make it there, and is now taking his failure out on israel? let's shed some light on this clown once and for all. it will help put his nonsense in the proper perspective. and the readers of this group who are more interested in fact than in anti-israel hyperbola can ignore this junk. 
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 news you may have missed, apr 19, 1993 not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it. those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three-week-long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state, palestinian sources said on sunday. the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank. five days ago girls at the al-khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``come and kiss me.'' when the girls fled, the soldiers threw empty bottles at them. on saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al-khansaa walking home from school. parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school. the same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. deputy principal srur abu-jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them against a wall, and put their arms around them. when teacher hamdan abu-hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles. on tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh, a practising moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. qdieh refused, the soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the on friday, soldiers entered the home of zamno abu-ealyan, 60, blindfolded him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. as the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening. the army said it was checking the reports. israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper. two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter. ``right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish. israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews. the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre. father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites. makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian ``yesterday, we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption. but we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said. an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave. if you are as revolted at this as i am, drop israel's best friend email and let him know what you think. 75300.3115@compuserve.com (via compuserve) clintonpz@aol.com (via america online) clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via mci mail) tell 'em arf sent ya. if you are tired of "learning" about american foreign policy from what is effectively, israeli controlled media, i highly recommend checking out the washington report. a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at: (800) 368 5788 tell 'em arf sent you. 
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 |> just a couple of questions for the pro-israeli lobby out there: |> 1) is israel's occupation of southern lebanon temporary? for mr. |> stein: i am working on a proof for you that israel is diverting |> water to the jordan river (away from lebanese territory). yes it is, as has been evidenced by the previous two stages of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops. currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light and armored patrols. no permanent installations have been built in the area, nor are any planned. as to the prodigal "water question", you can continue to waste your time looking for non-existent proof, or you can accept the testimony of people here, some lebanese, who have acknowledged that they know of no evidence for these allegations. |> 2) is israel's occupation of the west bank, gaza, and golan |> temporary? if so (for those of you who support it), why were so |> many settlers moved into the territories? if it is not temporary, |> let's hear it. it depends which of those territories you refer to. in general, settlers were moved into the territories because at the time, in the context of the situations, it seemed the logical move. this is not to say that views don't change or that mistakes are not made. currently, i would say that the only "disputed territory" that does not appear to be temporary is that of eastern and northern jerusalem. |> steve shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 you are such a loser!!!! system: fourd.com phone: 617-494-0565 cute quote: being a computer means never having to say you're sorry 
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 i have not seen but i guess would not liked it - to me he represents the worst of both american and israeli politics - but this is a matter of taste. as for the famous confession, it is currently believed (at least by some people) that all this adultry affair was just invented by him in order to impress the likkud voters (and poor jealous hamazah) and appear as a "real" man. oded maler, lgi-imag, bat d, b.p. 53x, 38041 grenoble, france phone: 76635846 fax: 76446675 e-mail: maler@imag.fr 
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 |> >04/16/93 1045 armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes |> ermenistan kasiniyor... |> let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets |> into it : armenia is getting itchy. |> esin. let me clearify mr. turkish; armenia is not getting "itchy". she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks. armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched. 
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 hey serdar, what nationality are you anyway? you are the supreme geek of geekdom of the usenet. you are laeding a totally useless and futile life on your computer mr. wimpy. you are the epitamy of a coward.i can predict that you will spend the rest of your useless, wastefull and pitifull life on the usenet. what a wasted life. system: fourd.com phone: 617-494-0565 cute quote: being a computer means never having to say you're sorry 
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 |> from: center for policy research <cpr> |> subject: unconventional peace proposal |> a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle-east. |> ---------------------------------------------------------- by |> elias davidsson this could be accomplished by other criteria. one must remember that children often bring stress into households. as an alternative, one could consider financial incentives for every sexual act performed by two partners of different ethnic backgrounds. the plan could be entitled "peace income sexual security", or piss for short. every time an israeli gets screwed by a palestinian or visa versa, they would be eligible for income. in keeping with the spirit of the times, condoms would be a tax deductible expense. this policy does not discriminate on a gender basis nor would it apply to domestic animals of either nationality. joint palestinan-israeli teams would be obligated to ensure that all acts were voluntary and promptly rewarded. the teams of palestinian-israel morals patrols, or pimps, would receive a percentage of the financial income in order to encourage their participation and add to their incentive in locating suitable candidates. |> i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as |> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful shouldn't that be insemination? |> elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik, iceland shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninjas of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 news you may have missed, apr 19, 1993 not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it. those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three-week-long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state, palestinian sources said on sunday. the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank. five days ago girls at the al-khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``come and kiss me.'' when the girls fled, the soldiers threw empty bottles at them. on saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al-khansaa walking home from school. parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school. the same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. deputy principal srur abu-jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them against a wall, and put their arms around them. when teacher hamdan abu-hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles. on tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh, a practising moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. qdieh refused, the soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the on friday, soldiers entered the home of zamno abu-ealyan, 60, blindfolded him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. as the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening. the army said it was checking the reports. israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper. two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter. ``right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish. israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews. the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre. father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites. makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian ``yesterday, we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption. but we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said. an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave. if you are as revolted at this as i am, drop israel's best friend email and let him know what you think. 75300.3115@compuserve.com (via compuserve) clintonpz@aol.com (via america online) clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via mci mail) tell 'em arf sent ya. if you are tired of "learning" about american foreign policy from what is effectively, israeli controlled media, i highly recommend checking out the washington report. a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at: (800) 368 5788 tell 'em arf sent you. i took your advice and ordered a copy of the washinton report. i heartily recommend it to all pro-israel types for the following reasons: 1. it is an excellent absorber of excrement. i use it to line the bottom of my parakeet's cage. a negative side effect is that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast. 2. it makes a great april fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "april fools". anyway, i plan to call them up every month just to keep getting those free sample magazines (you know how cheap we jews are). btw, when you call them, tell 'em barf sent you. just kidding, 
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 # |> >it is not a "terrorist camp" as you and the israelis like # |> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer # |> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc..... # |> >some young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of # |> >the lebanese resistance. even the inhabitants of the village do not # |> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often # |> >suspect who they are and what they are up to. these young men are # |> >supported financially by iran most of the time. they sneak arms and # |> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps # |> >for israeli patrols. every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured # |> >by these traps, israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages # |> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians. # |> this a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups: # |> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the # |> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or, # |> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. certainly the # |> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the # |> innocent civilians into harm's way. # |> are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, israel # |> should totally back down? so...the easiest way to get away with attacking # |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects # |> innocent lives? # tell me tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? assuming that they are using # civilians for cover, are they not killing soldiers in their country? if the # buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel, is it not working? why is it # further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages? why not just # kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? you see, there is more to # the shelling of the villages.... it is called retaliation... "getting back" # ..."getting even". it doesn't make sense to shell the villages. the least # it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of # civilians. please clarify your standards for rules of engagement. as i understand it, israelis are at all times and under all circumstances fair targets. their opponents are legitimate targets only when mirandized, or some such? i'm sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant *a*priori* that israelis are the black hats, and that therefore killing them is automatically a good thing (go hezbollah!). the corollary is that the hezbollah are the white hats, and that whatever they do is a good thing, and the israelis only prove themselves to be bad guys by attacking them. this sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan i know, who cheers when one of the players on his team uses his stick to permanently rearrange an opponent's face, and curses the ref for penalizing his side. of course, when it's different when the roles are --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 i think "house jews," a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint. i believe that cpr is himself such a "house jew". jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 |>..[cancellum]... let me clearify mr. turkish; armenia is not getting "itchy". she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks. armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched. it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as they appear in their signatures (i failed to do so since you did not bother to sign your posting). not only because it is the polite thing to do, but also to avoid addressing ladies with "mr.", as you have done. secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled as cyprus has never been greek, but rather, it has been home to a bi-communal society formed of greeks and turks. it seems that you know as little about the history and the demography of the island, as you know about the essence of turkey's military intervention to it under international agreements. be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land, can only be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing. but, i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... onur yalcin 
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 there you go the greeks have been trying for over a year, even though mr. mitsotakis was threatening the ec that if macedonia was recognized that the honourable papandreou would be back... well i guess the europeans pulled the plug eh ..? theis is just one other example about the corruptness and the "perversity" of greek foreign policy objectives... pity to those who have to live under the greek flag with "these" political decision-makers... more recognition for macedonia. belgium, germany, and italy joined denmark on 15 april in recognizing the republic of macedonia, afp reports. each is an ec member state. greece, which has blocked ec recognition of macedonia, noted that such recognition "does not facilitate" negotiations between athens and skopje now underway in new york. duncan perry, rfe/rl, inc. the day will come when reuters will write "despite lengthy negotiations and numerous attempts to reunite the island the turkish republic of northern cyprus " was recognized by... your humble servant kubilay 
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 check menahem begin dairies (published book) you'll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen, though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are greatly minimized. there is no known writing directly attributable to menachem begin which admits a massacre at deir yassin. thus, hasan is wrong. as per request of hasan: from _the revolt_, by menachem begin, dell publishing, ny, 1977: [pp. 225-227] "apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin. at that village, whose name was publicized throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. we had four killed and nearly forty wounded. the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. the fighting the word "troops" is unjustified. there has never been any evidence that there were any regular or irregular arab forces in the village apart from the villagers defending themselves. according to the haganah observer pa'il, the irgun/lehi forces suffered a lot of casualties because they were incompetent soldiers. when they ran into trouble securing the central part of the village, a small group of palmach soldiers came and took it without a single casualty. begin's failure to even mention the palmach is only one of the major inaccuracies (to use a kind word) in his account. incidentally, "three times as heavy" may be correct, as there is serious evidence that the arab loss was closer to 120 lives than to the oft-quoted 250 lives. however, note that begin compares wounded jews to dead arabs. he fails to mention the number of wounded arabs. guess why. was thus very severe. yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began. one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women, children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill. by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle. as is thoroughly established by many sources, the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch too far from the village for it to provide a usueful warning. a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. a few did not leave their stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. the fire of the enemy was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony. our men were compelled to fight for every house; to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable "the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. i am convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle. but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin [1] would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2]. "in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah, whom mr. ben gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' the 'wise ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal superciliousness. he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of 'dissidents.' throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about 'jewish attrocities.' "the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. in the result it helped us. panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel. kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting. beit-iksa was also evacuated. these two places overlooked the main road; and their fall, together with the capture of kastel by the haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem. in the rest of the country, too, the arabs began to flee in terror, even before they clashed with jewish forces. not what happened at dir yassin, but what was invented about dir yassin, helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa." it is worth noting how begin disputes the standard myth that the palestinian arabs fled as part of a calculated plan. [1] (a footnote from _the revolt_, pp.226-7.) "to counteract the loss of dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village. certain jewish officials, fearing the irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun. an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth. out of evil, however, good came. this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops, who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers. the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel. the `dir yassin massacre' lie is still propagated by jew-haters all over the world." apparently 90% of israeli historians are jew-haters. [2] in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews. i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin's whitewash. i have no particular desire to post it yet again. (normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au) 
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 now we have strong evidence of where the cpr really stands. unbelievable and disgusting. it only proves that we must never forget... a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle-east. not so unconventional. eugenic solutions to the jewish problem have been suggested by northern europeans in the past. eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race or breed. -- webster's ninth collegiate dictionary. 5. the emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed' marriages in israel/palestine, all of whom would have relatives on 'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society. the existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle-east in a graceful manner. this is nothing more than feisal husseini's statement that the zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to "engage" the surrounding "normal" arab society. "a strong mixed stock", "integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner," these are the phrases of nazi racial engineering pure and simple. as if israeli society has no right to exist per se! 3. fundamentalist jews would certainly object to the use of financial incentives to encourage 'mixed marriages'. from their point of view, the continued existence of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of human rights. the president of the world jewish congress, edgar bronfman, reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he gave to der spiegel, a german magazine. he called the increasing assimilation of jews in the world a <calamity>, comparable in its effects only with the holocaust. this objection has no merit either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions (see above) "the continued existance of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of human rights." disolve the jewish people and protect human values such as love and peace; yes ve have heard this before her himmler. notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to the jews in this analysis. ya, der spiegal ist a gut sourcen... 5. it may objected that such a fund would need great sums to bring about substantial demographic changes. this objection has merits. however, it must be remembered that huge sums, more than $3 billion, are expended each year by the united states government and by u.s. organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the middle-east through armaments. a mere fraction of these sums would suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable climate towards the existence of 'mixed' marriages in israel/palestine, thus encouraging the emergence of a non-segregated society in that worn-torn land. nice attempt to mix in a slam against u.s. aid to israel. i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment. elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik, iceland critical comment: you can take the nazi flag and holocaust photos off of your bedroom wall, elias; you'll never succeed. -- chris metcalfe now we'll find out where you fans really stand... 
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 |> >|>..[cancellum]... henrik] let me clearify mr. turkish; henrik] armenia is not getting "itchy". she is simply letting the world know henrik] that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with henrik] their famous tricks. armenians do remember of the turkish invasion henrik] of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched. onur yalcin] it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as onur yalcin] they appear in their signatures (i failed to do so since you did onur yalcin] not bother to sign your posting). not only because it is the onur yalcin] polite thing to do, but also to avoid addressing ladies with onur yalcin] "mr.", as you have done. fine. please, accept my opology ! onur yalcin] secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled onur yalcin] as cyprus has never been greek, but rather, it has been home to onur yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of greeks and turks. it seems that onur yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the onur yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of turkey's onur yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements. bi-communal society ? then why did not greece invade cyprus ? onur yalcin] be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in onur yalcin] history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land, can only onur yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing. buch of crap and you know it. nagarno-karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris. go back and review the history. the armenians in nagarno-karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their onur yalcin] but, i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to onur yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such onur yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... i was not the one that stated it. however, i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one that happened last summer. turkey searched an american plane (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to armenia. 
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 i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. thank you, brad/ali, for warning us about the dangers of propaganda. it's funny, though, coming from you. there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists. who is it that executes these "pin-point attacks" on israelis? the guys in the white hats or the ones in the black hats? neither? you mean that they are just civilians, farmers, teachers, school children? well, maybe they are terrorists, after all? and maybe that "propaganda" was correct, too? hmm? jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 no, it's an example of "things are nowhere near as bad as you characterize." the united states police kill as many blacks as israel kills palestinians, even though the us black population, while admittedly larger, isn't engaged in a civil war to attempt to destroy the government........ this probably should not be in this newgroup but mr frank is wrong to use words like civil war or "destroy the government" in discussing the conflict in the _occupied territories_. (re: the newsgroup -- followups set to talk.politics.mideast where this belongs.) this may make the term 'civil war' dubious, but it does nothing to the phrase 'destroy the government'. an occupying government is still a govern- ment, and the palestinians have made it quite clear that their goal is not simply to prevent it from occupying the territories that don't con- fer citizenship (which is your own determination of the distinction) but to wipe it out entirely (and, not incidentally, the entire jewish population it rules with it). this is an intent to 'destroy the government', no matter where the government happens to be from. if the current government in isreal would be willing to let all adult individuals who are capable to vote in elections within the _defacto_ boundaries of the isreali state, a requirement for being called a democracy in my opinion, wasn't a requirement for democracy in athens. for that matter, isn't a requirement for the term democracy in the united states, which doesn't let non-citizens vote either. both the united states and israel have processes whereby it is possible to acquire citizenship, with a great deal of effort and a modicum of screening -- it's just that it isn't automatic for living in the territories. it isn't automatic for living in new york, either. that said, suit yourself. having never considered democracy the ultimate in good in this world, i could care less if you feel like calling israel, or america, or anywhere else, a democracy. personally, i withhold the term from israel for the same reason i withhold it from britain... the parliamentary system is a serious handicap. then mr. frank would be correct. as the current government neither is willing to enfrachise the vast majority of individuals in the territories or to allow these people to have the right to self determination it is not a civil war or their government, rather it is resitance to a foreign again, suit yourself. in which case israel is *not* attacking its own people, it is fighting a war on foreign soil, in which case the residents are entitled to play rough, yes -- but israel's allowed to get just as rough, within the bare limits of the rules of war. this includes, among other things, the right to shoot or bomb *anyone* a national of the coun- try in question who is fighting them (which permits mass frontal assault on all rock-throwers), along with the right to take out any installation of military importance (certain villages with too-good fortifications can be handled by aerial bombing, as can waterways since they count as supply lines to the enemy), and the right to do anything whatsoever to whatever constitutes a government that they can lay hands on (if hamas is trying to set up as the ruling party, let them beware). if this is not the scenario you want, i recommend you go back to calling it a civil war. civil wars have to be handled nicer. you cannot say the palestinians are a nation fighting a resistance war against a foreign nation and still call israel a government who is treating its own people cruelly. if the palestinians are fighting a war against a foreign country, so is israel, and the gloves come *off*. yes, it is bread we may the source of peace fight for, but we fight naomi rivkis in the heavens bring peace for roses too. rivk@midway.uchicago.edu to us, and to all israel. 
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 |> >according to exodus, there were 600,000 jews that marched out of egypt. |> this is only the number of adult males. the total number of jewish |> slaves leaving egypt was much larger. |> >the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been |> >substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the |> >jewish tribes on the way.. |> >nabil |> typical arabic thinking. if we are guilty of something, so is |> everyone else. unfortunately for you, nabil, jewish tribes are not |> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so |> common among arabs in the middle east. there were no " killings |> between the jewish tribes on the way." i don't like this comment about "typical" thinking. you could state your interpretation of exodus without it. as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological/religious colors. the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. that's why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs, turks and mongols can unify as well. |> jake |> jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will |> american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the |> my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. oded maler, lgi-imag, bat d, b.p. 53x, 38041 grenoble, france phone: 76635846 fax: 76446675 e-mail: maler@imag.fr 
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 so nice of you all to answer some questions. and it so nice that most of you feel that it would be in your hearts to give the palestinians some land - most of you focus on the fact that israel annexed all this land and it is a kind gesture to give some of it back. well, i hope that after after a state run by palestinians is established, the first decision should be to make jerusalem part of this state - by annexing it of course. if the israelis are stupid enough to "allow" a second "palestinian" state (the first one is jordon), then you will probably get your wish - and the israelis would get what's coming to them. however, if the "palestinians" were to somehow demonstrate that they could govern themselves and live in peace with their jewish neighbors, then they would have to give up the idea of jerusalem as a part of their state - and you would be disappointed. israel has not annexed any of the west bank, just jeruselum. which will remain part of israel forever! yashir koach to this. 
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 |> >well, you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli |> >patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the "retaliatory" |> >shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli-backed forces. my "team", |> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the |> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. |> >i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on |> >in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. there are no a priori |> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in |> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the |> >lebanese terrorists. |> if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. but this is not the |> issue. the issue is that you were cheering death. [...] |> dorin dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one i accept. i regret that aspect of my post. it is my hope that the occupation will end (and the accompanying loss of life) but i believe that stiff resistance can help to achieve that end. despite what some have said on t.p.m., i think that there is a point when losses are unacceptable. the strategy drove u.s. troops out of lebanon, at least. brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) 
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 |> > in article <c5qu5h.1if@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (onur yalcin) oy] henrik (?), oy] your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. i'm not oy] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus. good !! go back to your references and read it over and over ... oy] if you are really interested, i can provide you with a number of references oy] on the issue. just send me email for that. you think i am that stupid to ask you for references ! not ! i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed. i have already read many articles and do not need your help. boy, how generous !! oy] relax! you're swinging fists into open air... i was *agreeing* with you, oy] assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! you may oy] not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more oy] easily. !:-) believe me, i am so relaxed ... henrik] however, i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik] to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one [oy] no, henrik, believe me: you don't hope that. if armenia is goint to do that, then so be it. henrik] that happened last summer. turkey searched an american plane henrik] (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to armenia. oy] was that after or before one french plane changed its route to avoid oy] inspection??? all i am saying is that the plane that was searched was an american and why turkey did not trust the u.s. that it was mainly humanitarian aid cargo. 
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 o dr. malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of 1371 went below 2.7 i know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small (at the end of 1371)? is it adequete to suggest a trend or is it just noise? - farzin mokhtarian --mack 
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 yigal et al, sue adl why do you title this "news you will miss" ? there have been at least three front-page stories on it in the l.a. times. i wouldn't exactly call that a media cover-up. this may come as a surprise to you but there are a few americans who do not read the la times. is this the same monolithic, centrally controlled media that you're always talking about? do you mean to tell me that the la times is the only major paper to buck the media spiking division's activities? the defamation league has done a first class job of damage control..in what little is left of the world outside of la. assumption: when one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local, this is likely to be considered an open story, and not a coverup. let's hear a roll call here. anyone outside of the la area seen articles on mossad special agent id314159 media spiking & mind control division los angeles offices (therefore, evidently, incompetent) _________pratice safe .signature! prevent dangerous signature virii!_______ guildenstern: our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a summons ... there must have been a moment, at the beginning, where we could have said -- no. but somehow we missed it. 
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 the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files. so it will be nice if yigal will tell us: 1. why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous? adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including the millions of americans of arab ancestry. perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california (and elsewhere??)? friendly rivalry perhaps? come on! most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel. that is why the adl monitors arab organizations. that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago. the adc is an organization of arab-*americans*. let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" arab-americans should be spied on? you're also saying that "most if not all" arab-americans should be views as a national security threat to israel (and the us, as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the wtc bombing, in which no arab-americans were involved)? by inference, can we assume that you think that anyone of arab lineage anywhere in the world poses a threat to israel and, therefore, should be spied on? perhaps, then, on the basis of pollard spy case (not to mention the rosenbergs, etc.) you think that all jewish americans should be spied on by the adc. oh, never mind; this whole spying case has obviously so convoluted your sense of right or wrong in these matters that i have no wish confuse you further. perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member? or the naacp? or a reporter? or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic minorities/occupations that the adl spied on. all of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti- israel activity or propoganda. the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise. so the la times reporter who had information about him sold to the south african government was involved in "anti-israel activity or propaganda"? are we to infer that the simple act of reporting an event in a newspaper constitutes "anti-israel activity or propaganda"? or was it south africa? the la times reporter was based in south africa, after all. gideon ehrlich -anwar again 
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 in the following report: _turkey eyes regional role_ ankara, turkey (ap) april 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph: [turanist] although premier suleyman demirel criticized ozal's often [turanist] brash calls for more turkish influence, he also has spoken [turanist] of a swath of turkic peoples "stretching from the adriatic [turanist] sea to the great wall of china." who does demirel think he is fooling? it seems at both ends of his envisioned pan-turkic empire -- the balkans and the caucasus -- turkey's fascist boasts are being pre-empted. i would suggest turkey let the world feel some of their "grey wolf teeth", attempt to stretch from the adriatic to china! turkey will have cried "wolf" just once too much! mentioning that turkic people are wide-spread means desiring a turkish empire? is that the logical thing to conclude from a statement like that? to me it just says that turkey may have economical benefits from that if she can be competitive enough. no more than that. but of course you have the freedom of extrapolating as you wish from any statement. one question: in what context did ozal use the words you are quoting? can you give the whole speech. tankut atan tankut@iastate.edu "achtung, baby!" 
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 %by elias davidsson - april 1991 (revision oct. 1991) note - you are already posting "facts", some of which are outdated. the biased presentation of facts, as well as the conclusions that you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful exchange that might lead to a "meeting of the minds". it is to those who read with open mind, that i address myself. %the international convention on the elimination of all forms of %racial discrimination adopted by the general assembly of the %united nations in 1965, has now been ratified by most member %states. article 1 of this convention defines the term racial %discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or %preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic %origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing %the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of %human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, %social, cultural or any other field of public life." while the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals, as the text currently stands i know of no country in which racial discrimination of some sort can not be found. it makes no mention of the need for for a legislative %the general assembly endorsed in 1975 a resolution defining %zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. the %important, correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since %it does not include operative statements designed to end israeli %racial discrimination. meanwhile the united states, on behalf of %israel, are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the united %nations to repeal this resolution and give israeli racial %practices - zionism - moral legitimacy. if you are, in principle, advocating un intervention via operative statements in this case, it must therefore hold that they can be applied to any other case where the council perceives some form of racial discrimination as previously exhibited. scarey thought. %the very definition of israel as a state belonging to the jews of %the world (but not to its inhabitants), alienates all native %non-jews born in that country. actually, i know quite a few native non-jews born in israel that are not alienated by this law. if you had said some, you would probably be correct, however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes apparent. this slant permeates the text. %practically all non-jews who are living in or originate from areas %under israeli control, identify themselves as palestinians. most %of them are muslim, many are christian. a few jews, including the %author of these lines, also identify themselves as palestinians. the above statement is not true. practically all - discounting beduins, circassians, druze, and some other fringe groups. your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the issue. you could equally identify yourself as a [insert group]. %zionism took off in europe at the end of last century. it's aim %was to create a jewish state in palestine in spite of the adamant %opposition of palestinian arabs (95% of the population). if i recall correctly, at the time "zionism" took off, there was no adamant opposition in palestine. i am open to any factual contradictory evidence . %but the %zionists were more powerful, militarily, economically and %technologically, and succeeded in 1948 in conquering 70% of the %area of mandatory palestine. after driving into exile most native %arabs from the conquered areas, approximately 750,000 people, and %razing most of their villages to the ground, the zionists could %finally establish a predominantly jewish state. only 150,000 %non-jews remained on israeli territory. do you therefore contend that the 400 villages you mention further on "most of their villages"? %once the jewish state was established, it began enacting laws to %help the confiscation of land from native non-jews, their %political repression and their destitution. there is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later used for these purposes. however, you seem to imply that this was the intention a priori, which implies a policy and agenda. my knowledge was that this was not the case. you also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded this. as you do again, below. %in 1967 the state of israel invaded egypt and syria and occupied %the rest of palestine (the west bank and the gaza strip). thus %another 1.5 million palestinians fell under its juridiction. its %occupation of palestinian and other arab territories is considered %illegal by the international community, as reflected in security %council resolutions. israel has rejected all u.n. resolutions and %began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these %territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time. not quite accurate. israel has not rejected all the resolutions, though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them. israel never annexed the sinai, west bank, or gaza. the other annexations were brought about partly due to the un resolutions. %part of these territores, east jerusalem and the golan heights, %have already been forcefully annexed by israel, in defiance of %international law and un resolutions. out of curiousity, provided that the annexees are granted citizenship, what int'l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories captured in war? has this ever been applied to any other country previously (other than iraq) ? %it must be emphasized that, although these people live under %different regimes, they are united in their self-perception as %palestinians, that is as people identifying with palestine, a %territorial entity (not an ethnic or religious entity). incorrect! palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against on an "ethnic or racial" basis. therefore your above statement is i also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination, the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically. however, no such nation has existed. it definitely did not exist at the time of the creation of israel, in which case you can not argue racial discrimination during that period! %furthermore palestinians generally consider the plo both as a %symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that %represents them in world affairs. once again, some do, some don't. %the non-jewish population living in the palestinian and other arab %territories occupied by israel in 1967 suffers not only blatant %discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation. another generalization, but then again, you don't seem to care about anyone other than the palestinian people, whose cause you %licence, to start a business and to buy industrial equipment, the %right to educate children, all of these basic rights are subject %to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be %challenged in court. incorrect once again. they have the ability to appeal. furthermore, although you may not agree with them, not all of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary. some are, but this is not due to the "whims" of the military as much as the sizeof the task/organization. %only jewish inhabitants of the occupied %territories are permitted to carry firearms. incorrect once again. i know two arab policemen who lived in daheisha and there were more. of course, with the outbreak of the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign, bitterly. %jewish settlers have %right to 6-7 more water per person than non-jews. jewish residents %of these territories number now about 100,000 people. it is israel %governmentus policy to increase this number substantially, in %total defiance of international law, un resolutions and the will %of the population. the state of israel systematically confiscates %land from non-jewish inhabitants of these territories for jewish %settlement. that is no longer true, and i can't help but wonder what your purpose is/was in posting this. %some 800,000 people in israel proper,are not jews. most of them %consider themselves palestinians with israeli citizenship. for %many years after the establishment of israel they were subjected %to harsh military control. much of their land was confiscated by %the state and handed to jewish organisations for exclusive jewish %settlement. they have been subject to massacres, destitution and %humiliation. while they enjoy, with jewish israelis, the right to %vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in %practice. once again, to hell with the other minorities that don't fit in, right? their are many villages who did not suffer in the way you seem to indicate, abu gosh comes to mind. yes, some did but as a result of what actions? %approximately 92% of the surface of the state of israel within the %rgreen lines is for all purposes closed to palestinians who are %second-class citizens in israel. they may neither legally live on %such land, nor rent or cultivate it. a direct effect of these %policies is that native non-jewish citizens of israel are denied %residence and membership rights in most rural communities in %israel, including the collective settlements, kibbutzim. non-jews %are discriminated against in many other ways: the government %starves local authorities of palestinian villages and townships of %funds; jewish city councils force palestinians to live in ghettos; %jewish families receive higher child allocations than their %non-jewish neighbors, palestinian schools suffer underfunding and %understaffing (as compared to jewish schools); palestinian %children are denied the right to learn their history and %literature; israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end %of racial discrimination, suffer continuous harassment by the %authorities. 1. there are some kibbutzim with arab/non-jewish members. it is up to the members of the kibbutz. there is no legislation against it, nor against a purely non-jewish 2. funds are the result of political lobbying. bearing in mind that non_jews compose ~20% of the voting population, it has never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large bloc, and increase their power. the recent elections are a case in point. 3. please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation with regard to educational material. you have obviously never seen the curriculum of a school in the west bank. it is based upon jordan's school system. 4. with regard to your last statement, it is simply another gross generalization. %the state of israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the state of %all its inhabitants. although the israeli cabinet has never %openly endorsed the 'transfer' idea (the forced removal from the %country of its native palestinian population, that is, its %ultimate judaization), israeli government policies towards %non-jews bear the mark of this 'final solution'. no attempt is %made by the zionist authorities to integrate palestinian arabs %into israeli public life. thus, although comprising approximately %17% of the population of israeli citizens, no palestinian citizen %of israel has ever served as cabinet member, as director of %ministry or of a national institution, as judge of the supreme %court, as ambassador of israel, or in any leading position in %israeli economic or financial life. even the director of the %ministry for arab affairs - yes, such a thing exists! - is a jew. another generalization, but lets not stop here. the transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov't, moledet. it was intended to be a solution to the problem in the territories, not the country itself. with regard to other items, i recall at least one arab ambassador, and the rest was covered %although sexual %relations between and cohabitation of jews and non-jews are legal, %they are considered by israeli/zionist society somewhat a betrayal %of the jewish and zionist ethics. the israeli educational system %nurtures this attitude in a systematic way. when was the last time you were in israel? that is simply not true, nor has it been for quite some time. the question of religious intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and the lack of any arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one. %zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state, based on %equality of all citizens. this is one main reason why israel has %not produced any written constitution. simply incorrect. the answer is political. once again, your failure to understand the dynamics and movements inside israeli gov't, relegates your contentions to the sidelines. %zionism predicates a state %where jews have privileged rights. thus, according to israeli law, %a jew born in london, who has never visited israel, does not speak %hebrew and professes atheism, is granted automatic israeli %citizenship, while native palestinian inhabitants who happen to be %christian or muslim, are treated almost as aliens. racial %discrimination, as defined in international law, is thus not only %reflected in israeli laws and policies, but is grounded in the %very nature of israel as a jewish state. but the discrimination is not based upon race. oops, sorry, nasty habit i have of countering malicious false truths. %any proposal for israeli-arab and israeli-palestinian peace that %does not address the issue of racial discrimination by israel - %that is the zionist nature of the state of israel - is thus doomed %to fail. real world intrusion - any proposal that does is doomed to fail. of course, i wouldn't expect you to understand, wrapped up as you are in your view of things. let's not let anything penetrate shall we!?! i may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the amount of patience i have for rubbish at 02:00. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninja of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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 jake can call me doctor mohandes brad "ali" hernlem (as of last wednesday) congratulations. in what field is this doctorate? jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. i add my congratulations as well. to all those who survive the gauntlet, tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 |> >|> israel - happy 45th birthday! |> >anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed |> >by israel during these 44 happy year? |> >hamid |> what's this? another idiot from mcrcim.mcgill.edu? or are these all |> the same dope using different accounts? i asked some simple questions at different occations. i don't understand why some people insulted me for those simple questions! anyway, i didn't reply to them with the same language and i won't, because 1. there is no need 2. there is no benefit 3. i don't have time to reply to those garbages by the way, do you want to know who am i? i am not a nationalist arab of 1967. i am not a comonist arab of 70's. are you sure that you want to hear my name? i am a muslim fighter. i am the same child who fight with your armed soldier with stone! i am the same guy who wants to bring justice to palestine, i am the same fighter who wants to kicked israel out of south lebonon in the same way of the 1982. i am the son of khomeini. i am honored to be a hezbullah.... don't you know me!!!? just ask rabin he knows me! |> jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will |> american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the |> my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 there is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism. the former primarily targets enemy soldiers. the latter primarily targets civilians, and not necessarily enemy civilans, at that. by comparison, palestinean "fighters" primarily target tourists, schoolchildren, babies, worshippers, shoppers, movie-goers and other such threatening people. early zionist fighters did no such things. this is historically incorrect. early zionist 'fighters' did indeed target civilians. they made random attacks in arab marketplaces, killing innocent passers-by. your assertion of the opposite is an attempt to whitewash history. anyone can read about the history of the zionist terrorists. a good book to start is the one by j. bowyer bell, an expert in international terrorism. (his main interest is irish terrorism.) author: bell, j. bowyer, 1931- title: terror out of zion : irgun zvai leumi, lehi, and the palestine underground, 1929-1949 / j. bowyer bell. pub. info: new york : st. martin's press, c1977. description: xi, 374 p., [14] leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 24 cm. subjects: *s1 lohame herut yisrael. *s2 irgun tsevai leumi. *s3 israel-arab war, 1948-1949. *s4 jewish-arab relations--1917-1949. lc callno: ds119.7.b382 1977 for completeness, arab thuggery of the same period was also rampant, and targeted chiefly jewish civilians. can anyone tell me what the opposite of live and let live is? =jim eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (jim eggert) 
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 @> a few things about the university. it is more fun than some may @> admit. partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked @> one of playboy's top party schools. ... i knew it. andi beyer is a fraternity prank. 
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 there are basically three alternatives for gaza: what is this "gaza"? are you purposely separating it from the "west bank"? if so, why separate the people and territories? if not, why are you just addressing "gaza" here? 1. to throw the jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave the middle-east and go back to where they came from (russia, europe, usa, etc) by all means, continue to list the "etc." the reason i particularly bring this up here is that there are **many** from middle eastern and west asian countries. that fact in itself **adds** an important element to any consideration of "resolution" of the arab-israel 2. to throw the gazans into the sea, in accordance with yitzhak rabin's wish and that of many zionists. you explained what "sea" meant with regard to the israelis/jews, please do so in this case. 3. for israelis and palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (i don't attempt to say just) settlement, "just"? you better not ask for that because that would mean north american tribes would be returned their lands, the pre-islamic tribes would take back their lands from the islamic invaders, the saxons get to kick the normans out of the uk, the central and south american tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands..... and, once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it, we have to find out from whom **they** stole it. at some point, *every* culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants. which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality. but wait! now you refer to "palestinians", so what happened to "gaza"? i personnaly opt for the third alternative. how about you folks ? as we both know, most people would choose the third alternative. and, since you have done so in the past, perhaps you would initiate things by presenting your vision of "resolution". in doing so, however, the worries (not paranioas, *worries*) and resonable expectations **of both** parties should be considered. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points, i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries. i think we have a problem in this newsgroup: every time somebody puts down serious questions on israel, the first response would be "what about the arab countries?" ... most of the arab countries governments are ruling their people with iron fist policy and dark ages democracy (if exists). ironically, these are the countries that the "west" would like to deal with and would wage massive wars to protect them and their resources. for israel the situation is different, israel claims it is a democracy -- i would call it selective democracy, that abides by western democratic standards. if israel is saying that then it has to be compared to western standards. if this comparison is the advertized propaganda from israel, then we have to look at seriously at question that can and should be asked regarding any country advertizing this standard. if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your fixation on israel must stop. you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well. you realize it would not work, as the arab countries' treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is. that is very incorrect, i see you have been brain-washed well, i would recommend non-zionist history books). everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'center for policy research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel. please, speak for yourself. do not imagine that "everyone" subscribes to your beliefs, you would be lucky if you believe them yourself. why don't you try being honest about your hatred of israel? i have heard that your family once lived in israel, but the members of your family could not cut the competition there. is this true about your family? is this true about you? is this actually not about israel, but is really a personal vendetta? why are you not what is this, you trying to destroy the credibility of the author, why? all of this because he asked some serious question. these tactics of destroying the credibility of a person beacuse you do not agree with her/him is old and does not work anymore, go tell your superiors (aipac?) to change their guide books. eyad nuweiri software engineer unify corp. *** disclaimer: this is my personal views, not of my employer *** eyad alnuweiri unify corp software engineer 3901 lennane drive email: eyad@unify.com sacramento, ca 95834-1922 
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 i think some of you guys think that the volume of your responses and their harshness somehow increases their factual accuracy. i especially deplore the attempts to call me a racist (as many of you have done). you guys think just because there are more unreasonable israelis on this pcnews channel than all other denominations combined (including reasonable israelis) that somehow makes you right. well you're wrong. i just started reading this stuff last sunday and thought i might butt in since there were severe information problem on the part of some people. i thought that through somewhat intelligent conversation we might enlighten each that would be nice, but considering professional diplomats between israel and athe arabs have been unable to do so for 45 years, i can't see us starting. but hey - as soon as anyone wants to discuss things reasonably and in a scholarly manner, count me in. anyway the responses were mostly negative and i've been called a racist and an anti-semite so many times that it seems assumed about me in people's postings. when i shared this with some of my friends it appears that they have had similar experiences. the overall harsh language coupled with the occasional death threats and attempts to get them disconnected have convinced many to look elsewhere for true discussions and unsubscribe to the newsgroup. people have very strong opinions and you need to be careful regarding what you say - if you say, make it factual and be able to back it up. i don't know if you're paid israeli lobbyists or just concerned, but it seems that toning down the harsh rhetoric might be more helpful to your cause than name-calling , attempting to disconnect and death threats. just a tip about how things work in the civilized world. thanks for teaching us about the civilized world, andi. i guess we all just came out either the desert or the ghetto, right? and no, we are not paid israeli lobbyists nor are we conspirators of the zog - we are just people who believe in our cause and find offense when people imply some sort dirty dealing or disloyalty due to our love of israel (disguised as "paid israeli lobbyists" - what kind of image is that?) p.s. i understand that not all of you are involved in all this but many of you are contributing to the atmosphere. p.p.s. just to clear up something, i don't think than the jews are necessarily any worse than other people as a whole if such a distinction between cultures shall be made(i don't personally believe in judging people by their religion, culture or race.) oh! thank you! i needed your approval of my heritage. i guess i can go home and feel good now and sleep comfartably knowing that jews _really_ aren't worse people than anyone else, contrary to what we all _know_ is true. 
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 [tc] do you, as i do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed? [tc] what about the particular points mentioned in the article? is what [tc] israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? does it go too far? [tc] not far enough? [tc] if you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is? i personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability. unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like: anas omran, hamza saleh, jle, mohammed reza, mehmed abu-abed, anwar mohammed and others who think that jihad is the only solution. if we can't avoid throwing out gut-reactions to what we see as "extremist" views here in the newsgroup, we're certainly not going to be any better at it in the real world. hey, it easy here. after reading the offending post, we can step back, take some deep breathing exercises, have a gallon of ice cream (or sex, whichever calmsus), and reply in something other than the usual king-of-the-hill mentality. my view is that israel has made more gestures towards its arab foes than the opposite. what have the sysrians given to us or proposed? what have the palestinians proposed? if the palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their charter, or just condemn acts of palestinian violence that would be a good perhaps, starting here with an immediate "accusation" is not a particularly good way to generate open responses? how about explaining what you see as being israel's *real worries* and how they *need* to be addressed? since the "other side" sees israel's "gestures" in a completely different light than you do, perhaps "they" also have *real worries*. from their point of view, what are they? how can those worries be addressed? the palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. its seems though that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere. fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be too late to discuss issues with the palestinians since they will only vow for the destruction of israel. it is certainly much harder to "reach compromise" (or, even sit down and talk with...) an other side which is fractured into several different ideologies, each with its own set of "demands". while it is up to "them" to generate unity on their side, is there anything that israel can do (without sacrificing its security, its position) to encourage that unification along lines that israel prefers? arabs must take example on egypt. egypt came to the bargaining table, got what it wanted from israel and there is now peace and cooperation between the two countries. the tougher you play ball with israel the tougher israel gets. tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 first of all, harry, i am not so uninformed about irgun's terrorist activities. i'll give you a few quotes from a book by charles d. smith in his palestine and the arab israeli conflict [1988, 1992] ah - palestine and the arab israeli conflict. sounds interesting. "begin directed the irgun to bomb only civilian [that's right, civilian] installations linked to the mandatory authority, not military sites." this is misleading. i supposed charles d. smith characterizes the bombing of the king david hotel as a civilian installation too. any installation attacked by etzel was linked to some sort of official function of the mandatory government. and of course, there is the lehi splinter group, which included such notable israelis as yitzak shamir... the lehi [fighters for the freedom of israel} "resumed its assassinations of british officials, civilian, and military". what kind of civilians? i assume charles d. smith means completely innocent people who were intentionally targeted, right? please provide examples. and there is of course, dair yassin, where 250 men, woman and children were killed,... perhaps i'm sure for strategic reasons, yet what ever happened to the non aggression pact with the hagana? i have references for that if you'd like. it seems to me like blatant scare tactics that begin himself admits to having been very useful in scaring off the palestinian arabs. [i do have references!... the revolt(los angeles 1972)] nice strawman. in _the revolt_ begin does state that the *myth* of a massacre at deir yassin may have had the effect of scaring some arabs into fleeing. however, nowhere does he claim that this was the result of any specific policy of the etzel. thus, if it did happen, it was not so intended. i think arab calls for palestinians to leave and fear of a war started by arab hands had a greater effecton arab migration than deir yassin. in fact these jewish terrorist groups managed all in all to scare off 300, 000 arabs by may 15 1948. really. nice use of caps. i like it. very effective. actually, according to many sources, including american diplomatic officials, the greatest encouragment for arabs to leave their villages came from arab leaders. this certainly might be all a matter of semantics however. you might say that the hagana did this for war... but like i said before, how do we not know that the palestinian conflict isn't equatable with a war? if israel never got her state, the hagana's activities would be lost in history, categorized as tewrrorism for sure because it could not be identified with the cause of a state. i do take this seriously harry... i sincerely think the palestinians are being discriminated against in this case because, perhaps, everyone thinks their cause is bogus. anyway... just some stuff to ponder over. over and out. 
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 from _myths and facts_, by leonard j. davis, near east research inc., 1989: [pp. 108-109] "unlike the plo's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the 100 troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance. deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem, which the arabs had blockaded, and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars. snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem. "arab civilians were killed at deir yassin, but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint. the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about 250. in 1983, however, eric silver of _the guardian_ (britain) interviewed a survivor, mophammed sammour, who testified that 116 out of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'about three days after the massacre,' sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found (alive). we went through the names. nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure was wrong.' "unlike the plo's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated. the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left why does this remind me of bosnia and ethnic cleansing ?????? after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops, some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately. independent observers told _the guardian_ that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women." 
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 a few things about the university. it is more fun than some may admit. partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy's top party schools. but we do study and more importantly learn a lot. the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u.s. there is no hate law on the books even though they (the forces of pc) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional last year). there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed. thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights. so someone who picked on me for that is by the way, we're the man in everything. sports academics and partying. i'm sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk. i'm happy where i am and maybe i'll go to one of y'alls medical schools in a couple of years. medical school ? like your fellow austrian dr. mengele ?? dr. josh backon backon@vms.huji.ac.il 
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 # ># so steve: lets here, what is zionism? # > assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just # > told you, "zionism is racism." this is a tautological statement. # i think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading." no, but you're right that i didn't express myself well. the dialog went: a: "zionism is racism." b: "what is zionism?" dc: "you weren't listening, were you?" in other words, the first statement *defined* a zionism of discourse. everything else was redundant. --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 # > dear mr. beyer: # > it is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom" # > of racism and violent deragatory." # > it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial # > distinction. # in fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its # protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless. it is # speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be # it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. it is only # through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can # enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. that is the # idea behind freedom of expression. # what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by # some and what they might find offensive might be your belief. # it is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the # case seems to be with this channel) that one can change # another's erring ways.that is why jefferson said that here # we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to # combat it". does this mean that you are volunteering to wade through the mutlu/argic deluge that comes in every day? some of us are tired of being dragged into content-free pissing contests with reflexive bigots. we intensely dislike being stuck between letting this crap pass without comment as though it were unremarkable and replying to it and getting sucked in again. let's keep some perspective here. imho, the josh's policy of forwarding the garbage in question, without comment, to the relevant sysadmin strikes a good balance. the stuff was, after all, published on a public forum -- from that very site, yet. hardly a matter of confidentiality or copyright. if the local administration wants to do something about it, they have that right. if not, nobody's twisting their arms. --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 in a previous article, ohayon@jcpltyo.jcpl.co.jp (tsiel ohayon) says: i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs. were not shelling israel from the golan heights in 1982, but rather from lebanon. the golan heights have been held by israel since 1967, and therefore the plo could not have been shelling israel from there, unless there is something i am not aware of. oops...small mistake. thanks for mentioning it. i just read on the.israel.line that a village just got shelled by terrorists last week and some children were killed. i guess the terrorists must have gotten by the security zone. just think at how much more shelling would be happening if the security zone weren't there. l8r... | internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca fidonet: 1:163/109.18 | | mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca | | <<my opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> | 
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 arab citizens have the all the same rights as jews. arabs are exempt from military service, but that is about it. arabs have a full voice in israeli politics, to the degree that they choose to get involved. they may vote. there are arabs in the cabinet. the claim that israel is an apartheid state is a racist claim, one which is based on a total disregard for the facts and a total hatred for israel. 
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 |> >organization by trying to distribute nazi propaganda. furthermore, |> >you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing |> >to the wtc bombing, in which arab-americans had no involvement. |> huh? mohamed salimeh was perhaps a korean? how do you claim |> arab-americans had no involvement in the wtc bombing? |> ok, his involvement is alleged by the fbi, which doesn't seem |> to reliable these days. but honestly, there is a pile of evidence |> pointing to them, and it seems those 5 were involved. |> this does not mean that all arab-americans were involved, nor |> should they be blamed for it, but denying that there were some |> arab-americans involved sounds sorta silly to me. |> adam i don't think any of the suspects were americans. consequently, they could not be arab-americans. brad hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu) 
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 the jews that were stranded on the polish border since no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the lebenese border. no trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on guilt due to race. not due to race. due to membership in an organization which publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them -- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state, based on race. actually that's only what the israeli government claims. there were no trials held (which is a key thing in a free country like the u.s.). 
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 heap). similarly, malaysia was founded on the original sins of support for the axis and anti-chinese racism on the part of intellectuals opposed to the heritage of enlightenment. this is really a strange target for martillo. malaysia has fully vindicated itself since it shed its colonial yoke. it is a legitimate economic success story. its success may not be as dramatic as japan and singapore; nevertheless it has fully vindicated itself. so, advocating anglo-colonialism is ludicrous for malaysia. next, i suppose you will be advocating recolonization of china which is probably experiencing one the greatest sustained economic booms in the history of mankind. do you think present day england is in a position to set the stage for any more colonization. they will be lucky if they can keep intact what they with us assistance and proper agreements, redeployment of the british and french colonial empires would not be hard. primitive 3rd world elites who resist and who incite resistance among their deluded, brainwashed and essentially enslaved populations would get the iraq dream on. they are having problems even with deploying ground troops in bosnia. public opinion dictates that loss of lives (even in miniscule quantities), cannot be tolerated in the rich countries. this is really wierd. if you come to think of it, the armed forces are paid to basically to accept the risk of dying. if that danger is removed, it then has to be viewed as welfare on a grand scale. but, that is exactly what the public is saying. the iraqi operation lead to an extraordinary low level of casualties. this is an anomaly. a combination of iraqi incompetence and desert terrain. any future operation would lead to more casualties. for example the bombing in beirut lead to more gi deaths than the whole of desert storm. do you really think that scum like nehru ever asked themselves whether the vast majority of indians would be better off under british or local rule? nehru was driven by a crude desire for power. nationalism was just the vehicle whereby indian nationalists persuaded a lot of poor deluded fools to die in order to give a small elite the power to exploit other indians. you obviously have some information that the rest of us are not aware of. otherwise, it is impossible to draw such outrageous conclusions. devadatta santos francois peter mustafa huanghua mukutmoni that's cool; i wish everyone had the smae kind of names; the world would certainly be a better place!! javed ( the one with the name-fetish) 
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 this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. even in your location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed. to support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this incident? if identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). the comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but by no means "proves it. there is no doubt that israeli authorities ordered the destruction of mosques in the vicinity of the wailing wall. that does not mean, however, that once can generalize from this to any other points. the entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for jews to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of them, and which had been denied to them for millenia. on the other hand, throughout the rest of jerusalem and israel, to the best of my knowledge, israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided damage to any islamic religious sites. this contrasts with the policies of previous regimes which destroyed jewish synagogues out of hate and jack f. love | opinions expressed are mine alone. | (unless you happen to agree.) 
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 i believe that zionism, as it is, is a form of racism. by "as it is" i mean not the fact that is nacionalism, but the specific ideas it supports, the form it defines what a jew is and the way it wants to accomplish its goals. it has nothing to do with hypocrisy. it has everything to do with hypocrisy. we've dealt with with your arguments about history before on this net: suffice it to say you haven't succeeded in convincing anyone - probably because of their lack of basis. i do not want to convince anyone. this is just usenet, not the real world. i just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes i present my opinion. i think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas. i never wanted nor i want now to convince anyone of anything. now if you want to deal with what certain people say, that is fine. but by condemning the movement - which is nothing more than jewish nationalism and never has been anything more than that - you are saying - quite literally - that it is racist to think that jews - your own people, it should be added - have the right to a state in their homeland, the same right every other nation has. if you don't agree with that, i suggest you read a dictionary. because your interpretation is just plain inconsistent with that dictionary definition as well as modern history. first, and i repeat it, i never said that the idea of jews having the right to have a state is racist. zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. i think that zionism in the way it defines who is a jew, for example, is racist-like. in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira, i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now. here's where you're wrong. here's also where you should know you're wrong. zionism is in no way monolithic. never has been. approaches to zionism are as widespread as the ideologies of hashomer hatzair and meir kahane. some of those approaches *are* racist - kahane, for one. but every approach to zionism defines those goals differently and also defines a different approach to those goals. the single commonality is the belief that jews, like every other nation on earth, deserve their own homeland. period. that is what makes the basis for zionist movements. however, i am not considering just that, but the rest of it. as long as zionism considers, for example, who is a jew in a jewish state based on religion, i will consider zionism a form of racism. as you well know, over 80% of israeli jews are secular - in other words they are in no way religious, and most probably don't even believe in g-d. which makes an interesting point. people living in a jewish state have shown that jewish culture includes in it jewish religion but they are not the same. so, the jewish people living in the jewish state have shown us that there are some problems in a state where 80% of the people is secular but judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage is a religious stage, or where the law of return defines a jew according to a religious standard. did those israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non-jews? why should they still define then a jew based on what is a religious definition? maybe, i would consider hypocrisy to support zionism and disregard the right to self-determination of the palestinian people and their struggle to reach it. if you'd wanted to say that in the first place, you should have said it then. i took you at your word. in other words, i took your words to have their normal, dictionary definition. it is now quite obvious that you use a different dictionary than the rest of the english-speaking world, and that you base your analysis on misconceptions. according to webster's ninth new collegiate dictionary, merriam-webster inc, publishers, springfield, massachusetts, u.s.a., 1986, page 593, hy-poc-ri-sy: a feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not. so, saying that one believes in zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the palestinian people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy. if you are really interested on what i think, instead of directly coming with labels, like "hypocrat", send me a mail to aap@wam.umd.edu, and we can exchange ideas. how about learning what your words mean for once? i stand by what i've i know what my words mean. i do stand by what i said i believe: zionism is a form of racism. of course, i tend to talk about things as they are and not as they are defined in a broad sense. eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 after reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there is a restoration in the making? pakistan definitely comes in ambit of the economic colonialism. the utility rates (electricity, water and gas) are set by imf and world bank. governments come and go at whims and fancy of the state department. i have yet to see a pakistani govt. survive that doesnot have the support of the state department. 
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 |> after reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the |> restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate |> what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there |> is a restoration in the making? i'll leave questions 1 and 2 to be answered elsewhere, but on question 3) something in the noos today might be an example of the restoration might be. namely, that the clinton administration is considering asking the un to establish a police force for haiti. i didn't hear any thing that said that the current govt. of haiti asked for it, nor is there any real precedent (barring somalia) for the un getting involved in internal conflicts. that might also answer question 2). the neo-colonial countries are a diffuse lot - the un (security council). and while i am at it, i'll take a stab at 1) - the new colonialism, as defined in most articles i have read, would entail something of the nature of trusteeship under the un sec. council, democracy, aid, education, free-markets, free press and then out for the colonialists, now assured that there is a "civilized" country that they have left behind. note i don't support this idealized concept, simply because i think it is a lot of hogwash. srinivas sunder sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu if the university of illinois shares these views, i'd be surprised. they aren't that smart generally -:). 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77186">
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 i do not want to convince anyone. this is just usenet, not the real world. i just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes i present my opinion. i think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas. i never wanted nor i want now to convince anyone of anything. fine. now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that your opinions need some revision? as i said, i do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions convince anyone? i do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts. first, and i repeat it, i never said that the idea of jews having the right to have a state is racist. zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. in a word: utter and complete horse puckey. look the term up in the maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. one thing is the accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time. i think that zionism in the way it defines who is a jew, for example, is racist-like. ok, now how would *you* define it. and by the way, you're wrong again. there is *no* uniformity of this definition among zionist movements. you know this is the case, it's been pointed out on the net directly to you before, and yet you continue to maintain this delusion. ok. tell me how many people in zionist movements define a jew in a different way, and how many are who define jew based on a religious way. in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira, i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now. comparing the actions of israel to that of the ira is like comparing those of the us to those of chile under pinochet (for example), with the ira in the role of pinochet. you really need to get your history straight. you also need a basic dictionary. you need to start reading before answering. my point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it does not mean that i consider it to be nationalistic. i did not comapre israel to the ira. i think that you are starting to put words on my mouth and that is wrong. [stuff deleted by pinkas. his statement, which i was responding to with the below, asserted that zionism was uniform and monolithic] i never said that zionism is monolithic. if you are going to attribute me things, present the quotes where i said that. that is what makes the basis for zionist movements. however, i am not considering just that, but the rest of it. in a word: i don't believe you. your words tell a very different story. especially since they are not based on fact, but innuendo and that is your problem. i could certainly interpret this like you are running out of arguments. first, you put words in my mouth, now, you say you do ot believe me. which makes an interesting point. people living in a jewish state have shown that jewish culture includes in it jewish religion but they are not the same. so, the jewish people living in the jewish state have shown us that there are some problems in a state where 80% of the people is secular but judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage is a religious stage, or where the law of return defines a jew according to a religious standard. no, it doesn't! nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be religious or even believe in g-d to become a citizen of israel why don't you try reading for a change? did i say that the law of return demand a person to be religious? now, how does the law of return define who is a jew and who is not? i said that it uses a religious standard: if your mother is a jew, you are a jew, if your mother is not jewish, neither you are. do not twist my words, please. true, there are debates in israel and abroad about "who is a jew?", but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular. would you say that religious people should not have a say in that? would you deny them their right of free speech? i am not talking about the debate. i am talking about how things are right now. when the debate is over, i'll see what happens. right now, things are like they are. let me ask you one thing. i understand that israel differenciates between citizenship and nationality. suppose m(ale) and f(emale) have a child in israel. which nationality will the child's id show, according to each one of the following cases: a) f and m are both jewish. b) f is jewsh and m is not. c) f is muslim and m is jewish. d) f is christian and m is jewish. e) f and m are both non-jewish. did those israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non-jews? why should they still define then a jew based on what is a religious definition? it's called history. how do you think jews stuck together through pogroms for millenia in europe? we had to know who was our own. i for one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent is no less legit than is matrilineal (which is *not* the religious jew's point of view). there's plenty of room for that in zionism - as you well know. it called history. at some point it was ok. now, i believe, it is not. according to webster's ninth new collegiate dictionary, merriam-webster inc, publishers, springfield, massachusetts, u.s.a., 1986, page 593, hy-poc-ri-sy: a feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not. so, saying that one believes in zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the palestinian people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy. utter baloney. by the way, i do believe the palestinians have a right to self-determination, have stated so on this net, and i know you've seen it. interesting. how do you know? had i ever talked to you about this and forgotten about that? but that right to self-determination cannot be at israel's expense. israel's security comes first and that security must be maintained. you're also twisting words now beyond belief. if you think that's what that definition means in this context, you need a first-grade course in english. which definition are you now talking here about? i do not know why you are so touchy. i never said that you did not support palestinian self-determination. i just gave an example of hypocrisy. i never said that someone in this net is guilty of it. it was just an example. nothing more, nothing less than that. why did you have to clarify what you think? if you didn't use different meanings of words than are in the dictionary, you might be believable. here you have several problems. first, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in the dictionary. second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more words than those in the dictionary. third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary. it seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting others. sad. if your "facts" at all resembled even the slightest bit of truth - which they do not - you might be if you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might start reading what i had actually said. so far, you come over and over twisting what i said or presenting things i never said as if i had said them. in this way, you are answering to yourself. that is why you do not find it believable. maybe, if you start reading what i had actually said, and not what you added, you might change your mind. but the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in what you've said on this thread. and the fact also is that you're using different definitions for your words - based on baloney - than anyone else does. first, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what i said, as if i had said it. seconf, anyone else is supposed to mean "than i do"? eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to soc.culture.iranian: re: jews supports serbs re: arab leaders and bosnia re: hizballah in bosnia re: the stage is being set that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me, we have already reached our quota for the year. try again next year. 
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 in a word: utter and complete horse puckey. look the term up in the ok. lets look into this. according to my dictionary, zi-on-ism: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a jewish national or religious community in palestine and later for the support of modern israel. now, i do not support the establishment of nations based on religious principles, while i support the establishment of nations based on cultural so. here are some questions i have to ask for anyone to answer. my point is what someone said long time ago: in politics, like with men, it is important to distiguish between what they say they do and what they are actually 1) my mother is jewish (and so is my father). if i apply for the law of return, do i get in as a jew trying to return to his land, from which my family was expelled about 2000 years ago? 2) if i go back, which nationality would my id show? 3) if i decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been expelled 2000 years ago, but first i convert to any other religion, can i apply to the law of return as a member of the jewish nation or should i apply as someone whose mother is jewish? 4) which nationality would show my id in case 3)? 5) what has change in me between the day before and the day after i converted to loose my being part of the jewish nation? 6) suppose i want to get married to my current wife, who is non-jewish in israel, how do i do it? 7) how would my situation change if i decided, after going back to israel, to convert to islam? now, here is one more question. i do believe that most people in a country do not care about politics. they just want to be left alone. suppose my father is arab. suppose he was born in palestine, in some place which now is part of israel. suppose that his father, and his grandfather as well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place. now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same god. now, suppose that that place is some other arab country. and, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created where my father used to live, and that that country is called israel. and, that in that country, jews from all over the world are received. and that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and granted full-citizenship. should i, if i decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as 20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000 then, finally, people ask me how i would define a jew, but that is irrelevant. i am not talking about how i would define a jew, but about how people in zionist organizations, and more important, in israel, define a jew. how would those who are zionist define a jew? eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 fine. now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that your opinions need some revision? as i said, i do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions convince anyone? i do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts. then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against them. they have been, over and over again. they will be again. so far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. i would hardly take them as facts. maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. one thing is the accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time. hey, what do you think dictionaries are for? you quite obviously need one. a good dictionary gives both, and you well know it. i could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (spanish), that are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. even more, i could show you a lot of meanings that words in spanish have different from those in the dictionary. ok. tell me how many people in zionist movements define a jew in a different way, and how many are who define jew based on a religious way. i don't think that data exist on this directly. and guess why. isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define in how many different ways the term jew, which is the basis of the movement so, the evidence shows that up to now, jew, when considered in terms of israel, the law of return and jewish nationality is defined in terms of religion and not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as jews in isreal are not religious. in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira, i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now. comparing the actions of israel to that of the ira is like comparing those of the us to those of chile under pinochet (for example), with the ira in the role of pinochet. you really need to get your history straight. you also need a basic dictionary. you need to start reading before answering. my point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it does not mean that i consider it to be nationalistic. i did not comapre israel to the ira. i think that you are starting to put words on my mouth and that is wrong. that is no problem. but once again you are defining zionism as *one* movement. you are implying that it is monolithic. you *know* this is not and has never been the case. that is a problem. i am saying that i do not support zionism as it is now. i believe that among the people in the soviet communist party some might even had been inspired by noble ideals. does that change the final results of what happened in the ussr? in the same way, even if the zionist movement is not homogeneous, it does not matter. what matters is the result. i never said that zionism is monolithic. if you are going to attribute me things, present the quotes where i said that. you don't say it directly. you implied it, and i showed explicitly where and how you implied it. now you're trying to wriggle out of it. won't wash, and you know it. i never said it directly nor indirectly. i am not talking about individuals who defined themselves as zionists here. i am sure most of them are good, honest and caring people. i am talking about the results of the zionist movement. i am talking about a movement whose actions resulted in a law of return with a religious definition of jew, a country that defines nationality based on religion. i am talking about something i consider a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief. after all, if arabs in israel cannot serve in the army is becasue they were not born in the "right" religion. what you said is that "judaism is defined according to religious standards." now this can have several different meanings, and you know it. one of the meanings that it can have is to say that "only those who are religious are defined as jews". another is to say that "only those who meet the religious definition of a jew is one." and there are others. i'm not twisting your words. i'm trying to make you aware that your words don't mean what you think they do. i had never heard the definition: only those who are religious are defined as jews. i had always seen the definition: a person is a jew is his/her mother is/was a jew, and if such person does not convert, although i had seen people argue about the last part. i am not talking about the debate. i am talking about how things are right now. when the debate is over, i'll see what happens. right now, things are like they are. let me ask you one thing. i understand that israel differenciates between citizenship and nationality. suppose m(ale) and f(emale) have a child in israel. which nationality will the child's id show, according to each one of the following cases: actually, it doesn't. and the citizens' rights are exactly the same in both cases, anyway. so, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in israel? or what do you mean by "actually, it doesn't"? a) f and m are both jewish. b) f is jewsh and m is not. c) f is muslim and m is jewish. d) f is christian and m is jewish. it'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house. the original law of return would still admit such a person if they were jewish, if memory serves. so, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. that is what i call a form of racism. i do not know why you are so touchy. i never said that you did not support palestinian self-determination. i just gave an example of hypocrisy. no you didn't. you had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees in order to do so, and everyone else knows it. i'm not being touchy. you do not need to assume the representation of "everybody else" to make your points. you should assume that you are just talking for yourself. about the other stuff, i still believe that the example was a valid one. it would be a hypocrisy to say that one supports nationalism for all and then support zionism and then disregard the palestinian's right. i never said that someone in this net is guilty of it. it was just an example. nothing more, nothing less than that. why did you have to clarify what you think? because what you gave *was not* an example. it was an example of how the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees. it was an example. you are trying to justify something nobody has talked about. first, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in the dictionary. oh, so now what are dictionaries for? it's not nonsense. when people read what you write, they have to try to associate a meaning to those words. dictionaries give the meanings of words, don't they? yes, but not all of them. a language is something that evolves all the time. it seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting others. sad. not at all. what i cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been proven completely wrong. not really. i posted in another post the definition of zionism. and, in this post you have showed for me what i was telling you from the begining. zionism is a form of racism, even if most zionists are not racist in their individual and private lifes. a movement that ask for a state and national rights for a people, and then in practice, that people are defined according to religion is, for me, racist-like. i never put even one syllable in your mouth. you have tried to prove this and you failed. you did it. next time be more careful. ha! there's nothing resembling fact in what you've said. i never added *anything* to what you said. do you know the difference between opinion and fact? eric s. perlman <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> center for astrophysics and space astronomy, university of colorado, boulder 
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 |> >if the haitian people's will is that their current govt. get thrown out, |> >they'll find a way to do it. getting the us/un to short-cut the process will |> >only hasten it, but sets a bad precedent - can the us interfere everywhere? |> >why not right at our doorstep - cuba? |> precisely, why not cuba?? why not??? the hatians are being ruled by thugs |> and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will. well, let's delve one level deeper. why is democracy better than tribalism or other means of govt.? the president of georgia was elected with a thumping majority and booted out later, w/ no objections from the un. similarly, the people of algeria elected an islamic fundemantalist party into power but the junta declared it illegal. in both cases, i personally have _no_ problems with the outcome, but if the voice of the people is that hallowed thing that the world community claims to revere so, why isn't it interfering there? |> the u.s. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to |> help them without any whining from thir parties. after all if it turns out to |> be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out exactly. my point is that it will inevitably turn out that way, and we can save ourselves a lot of pain and trouble by simply letting people sort out their problems on their own. colonial interventions, even in haiti, haven't worked in the past. they had a 102 coups from 1845-1915. the us invaded in 1915. and left in 1933, almost 17 years after they had intended to. was it a success? well, look at haiti today and of the past 40 years and decide for yourself. it _was_ a success so long as the us was in, from what i remember. but it didn't last long, obviously. |> >there is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit |> >in judgement of another people, and to then act on it. to me, it is in there |> >that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie. today, the motives are noble. |> >tomorrow, they may not be. |> who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide?? nobody did. people should have a right to self-defense. if the un wants to arm the bosnians or haitian revolutionaries or whoever, i have no problems with that. i do when they cross that line and attempt to re-arrange boundaries, govts. etc., the vance-owen plan being one such piece of insanity. |> i want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you |> want special sovereignties designed to protect them. nobody has the right to |> commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self |> determination. if this is classical colonialism, then so be it. we finally have a clearly-stated point of difference. colonialism can have its good side, which is as you stated above - removing thugs from being able to lord it over powerless people. i am worried that the bad side is what will assert itself, and i am prepared to let natural forces take their course if that will mean we can avoid the bad side of colonialism. srinivas sunder sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu if the university of illinois shares these views, i'd be surprised. they aren't that smart generally -:). 
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 i am not aware of any such incidents. i have asked you to document your accusation. i repeat my request, nay, demand, that you either substantiate your accusation or else desist from spewing more "baseless eggert blabber". i've read most of the history books dealing with this period, good and bad, and while it is possible that i missed one or two, none of those i've read documents any razing of mosques. so i think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation. jake disrespectfully demands, and adam requires specific documentation of the razing of mosques in jerusalem. if either of them had been reading t.p.m for a while, they would already have seen such documentation. for the forgetful or newcomers, however, here are the well, -i've- been reading t.p.m. for a while and here is what i saw you write: for balance, perhaps you should mention the mosques in jerusalem that were razed after the israeli victory in 1967. an eye for an eye, i guess. your statment clearly tries to "balance" arab atrocities by noting a single incident by the israelis in war-time at their most holy site. you even characterize it as "an eye for an eye". that would be false. if you read your history, you will learn that right after the 1967 war, the victorious israelis decided to raze a section of the newly captured east jerusalem, near the wailing wall. it is in this section that mosques were razed. so now you have to find some source that notes that more than 1 mosque was razed. you then followed it with: this episode is an example of a good government running amok with newly acquired power. really? do you still feel that israelis are comparable in the running amok with power with, say, the iraqis? your "eye for an eye" comparisons don't match the realities that most of us are familiar quoting from the west bank story, pages 35-36: "on the night of june 10, an israeli officer marched from door to door this happened to be during a war! and a fierce and mighty war it was, too. would you say that the jordanians "indiscriminately shot up ancient structures as is their custom" in describing bullet holes in the walls of the city? this was war! it was certainly not any "eye for an eye" characterstic. israelis do not harbor the same feelings of revenge as the arabs generally do. this is one of the reasons that the peace now movement exists in israel and nowhere else in the m.e. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 that's your opinion, of course! if we were to take your military budget definition of "foreign aid," then the "foreign aid" we send annually to israel is easily multiplied beyond the three to six (depending on whose figures you believe) million of hard-earned u.s. taxpayer's dollars. oh really! let's see. it costs the us armed forces roughly 25k in salaries for the average man or woman in uniform. normally it takes 2-3 times the actual salary amount to support a worker. thus for the roughly 150k soldiers currently stationed in germany we get nearly 4 billion dollars - more than the annual cost of *all* aid to israel - in personnel, not even counting what is spent on local workers and equipment! you're just beginning to scratch the surface. do you know how much military equipment costs? when was the last time you tried to buy a mil-spec hammer, coffee-pot or toilet seat? paying israel to do the dirty work on it's own without putting american soldiers's lives on the line is much, much, much cheaper than uncle sam's arrangements with much of the rest of the world. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 when i was in jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true. apparently, it was built by a jewish convert to islam. he had had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to annoy them. it's a cute story, but not sure if it's true... if he gives you the same story explaining the presence of several synagogues in the "moslem quarter", then the story becomes suspect... in reality, the old city was not as neighborhooded in the past as it became after 1948. in pre-israel jerusalem, there were many jews in what is now called the moslem quarter. there are postal and telephone directories from that time to prove it. it's really rather interesting to hear arabs there claim that a house or store has been in the family for centuries even when there are clear photos and documents that show a jewish-owned business at the same location just a few decades ago. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 | "there's no room for christians here!" and "when we | | finish with the armenians, we'll go after the russians!" | deposition of karine borisovna melkumian [1] born 1963 boarding school no. 1 resident at building 2b, apartment 21 block 41a sumgait [azerbaijan] this is my fate: i had everything, we were a happy family, and now, at 25, i've become a widow, i'm left to raise my three children alone; the third, not yet two months old, was born in yerevan. igor and i had thought that if it was a girl we would call her raisa, after my mother-in-law, and if it was a boy, we'd call him arsen, after igor's grandfather. i had a girl, and i, without igor, named her raisa, in honor of her dead grandmother. our family and the melkumians had been neighbors since 1965. igor and i grew up together, we were friends from childhood on. we got engaged when i was 16. in 1981, when i was 18, we were married. two children were born to us in sumgait. my daughter is now 6 years old, her name is kristina, and my son, seryozha, is four and a half. first i shall tell what happened on february 27. that day on my way home from work i passed lenin square, where about 1,500 people had gathered. there were komsomol members there, and pioneers [children's organization], and there were both party members and non-party people there as well. all of them were shouting, "there's no room for christians here!" and "when we finish with the armenians, we'll go after the russians!" and some even cried out, "death to the armenians!" absurd rumors had been circulating about town. i became frightened. i came home, breathless, and told about everything i had seen downtown. my family couldn't believe it. my father-in-law sogomon markovich melkumian, wasn't home, he was at an azerbaijani wedding. by eight o'clock he returned and had barely finished parking the car when his rear window was smashed with a rock. he got out of the car but there was no one there. well i was telling him everything, too, and he said, "what, is there no longer any government?" that same day igor said, "papa, something terrible is happening in the city." and he said, "we'll stay at home, no one will drive us from our own home." the day passed. on february 28, that was sunday, we didn't go out. we called our relatives and asked them all kinds of questions, and they all said the same thing. sometime around evening they started smashing the car of an armenian from the neighboring building. ira, my brother-in-law's wife, and i called the police: they're wrecking a car, help. we called and called, and nonetheless they didn't come and they didn't do anything. on february 29, on monday, even though there were troops in the city, we were afraid to go to work. i called the school: i had the keys to the classroom. i told the senior teacher that he should send someone for the keys, i wouldn't be coming in. he agreed, and even said, "fine, don't come in, we understand what's going on in town, don't come in." before that, on the 28th, the ambartsumian family came over. they came to my father-in-law and said, "uncle sergey, they broke our windows, bad things are happening in town." uncle misha ambartsumian even said, "with my own eyes i saw them chasing naked girls through the streets. i don't know," he said, "we should leave town." well on the 29th we were already trying to decide where we should go, thinking we'd go to our dacha. we got a couple of bags together, clothes, food, the bare essentials. and then somewhere around 4:45 the building manager came by and said, "uncle sergey, the situation in town is bad, don't go out." my father even opened up to him and said, "maybe we'll drive to the dacha, it'll be safer there." "no," he said, "it'll be worse there, you'll be safer at home." he said don't be afraid, if something happens i'll send people to save you. after he left about 15 minutes passed and about 200 people burst into our courtyard. all of us were at home at the time: igor and i and our two children, ira and edik and their daughter, my sister-in-law ira, and my mother-and father-in-law. and the ambartsumian family, there were three of them, uncle misha, zhasmen, and their daughter marina. now when they started breaking down the door i remember edik and igor told us, "go in that room and close the door. close the door and calm the children so they won't hear that there's anyone home." the children started crying. suddenly ira, my brother-in-law's wife, suggested, "let's run out onto the balcony." we -- the two daughters-in-law and the children, and zhasmen and marina -- raced out onto the balcony. my sister-in-law and my mother-in-law ran in and said, "quick, over to the other balcony, or they'll kill you all." we lived on the second floor. we needed to cross over from our balcony to our neighbor's. at first we couldn't manage it. the balcony looked onto the street. at that time people were coming home from work, and many just stood there, watching. i pleaded and begged: "please, call someone, have someone come!" i even started shouting. "i'll throw down the children, i'll throw them down, you catch them and take them somewhere, so at least the children will survive." either they were afraid or . . . i don't know what. they looked as though they were watching a movie. some of them started throwing stones at us. i'll say it again, these weren't the bandits, these were people from the other part of the building and from our entryway, they were just regular people, passersby. a bus even stopped. i remember a man's voice saying the armenians were climbing over to the other balcony. ira, my sister-in-law, helped us get the children over there. i was pregnant, about seven months pregnant. no, it wasn't yet seven, it was six and a half. i climbed over too. i think zhasmen went first; you know, i just don't remember it all that well. zhasmen went first, i think, and edik's wife ira and i had the children, and they were all screaming and crying. my kristina said, "mamma, don't throw us over the balcony, we're afraid!" lilia was crying, and kristina and seryozha were crying too. kristina didn't even want to climb over. she shouted, "i'm staying with grandmother, i'm staying with grandma!" she loved her grandma, more than she loved me. and my mother-in-law shouted, "oh no, kristina's still there, she's still there, save kristina, too!" ira helped us climb over, with kristina coming last. ira helped us and went back inside. we started pounding on the neighbor's balcony door. i pounded with my fist, sevil, open the door, open it, please!" she didn't open it. "no, go away, go anywhere, go, i'm not opening the door." she was our neighbor, we were friends, we never refused her anything, ever! and apparently she thought we were going to break the windows, and she opened the door. she opened it and said, "karina, karina, go away, go anywhere, just don't stay here, they'll kill us, too, because of you." i begged, "please, at least take the children, we'll leave, we'll go back." "no," she said, "you have to leave." her sons ran in, one had a knife. sevil's brother, he's around 18, shouted at us: "get out of here, leave, i'll kill you with this knife!" i became terrified, i took the children and went out in the entryway and went down a few stairs. i went down and heard a loudspeaker. it was in the courtyard "the armenians must be killed, they've taken all the best places, all the best apartments!" one of them said, "let the armenian blood flow, none of them should survive!" when i heard that i went upstairs and started knocking on doors. no one opened their door for me! not on the third floor, or the fourth. i couldn't see zhasmen any longer. ira came upstairs later. i even thought that they had let her stay, that they would save her. my head was spinning. they were killing my family, and here i was in the next entryway with two children. seryozha was four, and kristina was five and a half. they were crying, "mamma, we're scared!" they were so frightened that i didn't even know how to calm them, should i try to calm them or myself? it was awful. but on the third floor a man did open his door. i asked, "open up, let me inside!" he opened the door slightly and said, "no!" "no" and that was it! he said it so sternly: "no!" i went up to the fifth floor. i pounded my fists on the door with all my might. he opened up, the man of the house, and stood there, looking at me. i was ready to get down on my knees. i almost did get down on my knees. "please, i beg of you, at least take the children." he wasn't an azerbaijani, he was a lezgin. i don't even know how, but he let me inside. and when i went in, zhasmen was already there. two minutes hadn't passed when ira and lilia came up the stairs. lilia was crying. he didn't want to open the door. and again i started pleading, "please, open the door, it's our ira and lilia! open the door!" and he said, "no, i'm afraid." i said again and again, "please, open the door, please!" he looked at me. he looked at me for a long time and then opened the door after all. ira came in with lilia. we threw ourselves into each other's arms, crying. then the man locked us into the bathroom. we sat there for a long time. through the door he told us, "calm the children, and calm yourselves down, too." calm down? this man was hiding us, but what of our family? when i was still in our apartment i had sensed that none of us would come out of this alive. i said, "igor, edik, let's say farewell." and edik turned around and looked at me as if to say, is that some kind of joke? all the same i thought they would kill all of us. igor looked at me, too . . . but it was already too late! they started pounding on the door, igor was standing next to the door. before that he had told us, "go lock yourselves in that room and sit tight." he thought we were in the room. but before we went out onto the balcony we went to them: "edik, igor, let's say farewell." igor didn't think we could climb over to the other balcony. and we did get over there, and i myself can't believe we were able to save ourselves. igor put on a helmet, and edik had his coat on, and he put on a fur hat. all the men--igor, edik, their father, and misha ambartsumian--they all stood next to the door. they thought they would pound on it a while and leave. but from the other side of the door they ordered in azerbaijani: "open the door!" we were all silent, waiting. someone outside the door said, "they're home, they're in there, break down the door!" and i remember my father-in-law whispering, "they're going to break it down now, it's coming down now . . . " he had something in his hands, i think it was a knife: if they got in, we were going to defend ourselves. in the hall near the door there were two metal chair legs. from outside the door they said, "we're counting to five, open up!" but we were all quiet, we didn't answer them. we made like no one was home. we figured they'd leave, they'd get tired and leave. my father-in-law had said, "it's not possible they'd come into my home. how can that be? everyone knows us, all of sumgait knows our family, we are on good terms with everyone." and indeed a day did not pass that there wasn't an azerbaijani guest at our table. we had a nice dacha, everyone would get together there often, azerbaijanis liked being with us there too. but now we had to save ourselves, we had to flee from our own home. ira, i remember, said, "i'm not leaving here, my brothers and my parents are here, i'm going to fight alongside them." that's just what she said. she picked up a knife and said, "if they open the door and come into the apartment then i'm going to fight alongside my family, i'm not going anywhere." we were at sevil's when they broke into our apartment. we heard fighting and shouting. the noise was terrible. and when we hid upstairs on the fifth floor at the lezgin's apartment, you could hear everything up there, too. even ira's voice. i remember her calling her mother several times. she called her for a long time . . . i started pounding on the door in the bathroom: "open the door, what are they doing to ira, who's shouting, that's ira shouting, that's her voice!" but the lezgin said, "it's nothing, calm down, no, it's not in your apartment." he was lying to me so i'd calm down. two hours went by and the lezgin opened the door and said, "karina, igor got away, calm down. he ran away." he saw igor break away and run off with his own eyes. they killed him outside, next to the building. while we were in the bathroom i experienced every possible human terror. the way ira shouted! she shouted, "save me, mamma, save me! . . . mamma, mamma!" she repeated it several times. there was a wild din. there were very many people there, all of them shouting, all of them bellowing, howling, whistling--you just can't imagine what was going on, what the roar was like. apparently, after they had killed ira those murderers came into the entryway where we were hiding and came upstairs, all the way up to the fifth floor. i don't know if they were just looking for any armenians or for us in particular, but i think they were looking for us because when we had climbed over the balconies someone on the street was saying that the daughters-in-law were climbing over the balconies. and after we heard ira we heard them coming up the stairs in the entryway and hammering on the doors. i thought those were our last moments, and started saying good-bye to my children, kissing them. they were sleeping. i woke them up: "kristina! seryozha, wake up!" and i tell ira: "ira, if something happens, we'll throw ourselves off the balcony." we were on the fifth floor. apparently our lezgin neighbor had opened the door too, because later he said, "i opened the door and told them there were no armenians inside." and after they all left our neighbor went out on the balcony himself to see: they were gone. we weren't friends with those lezgin neighbors, we only knew each other from the building. but the people we were friends with wouldn't even consider hiding us. the lezgin let us out of the bathroom. they had a candle burning. he said, "karina, there're no lights on in our block." the whole block was dark, the whole block! it's a huge block, too. the lezgin said, "i'm afraid to keep you until morning, i'm afraid of the neighbors, they might kill me for saving you." i said, "what are you saying, we'll leave now. but we can't just leave with the children in the middle of the night. give us time to find somewhere else to hide." he said, "well ok, go look." i asked ira, "ira, do you want to go?" ira said, "no, i'll stay with the children, karina." i said, "fine, then i'll go." zhasmen and i went downstairs together. it was very dark. no one was in the courtyard. it was dark, pitch black. l was afraid to go out at after seven, igor always met me after work and accompanied me home, i never went out alone. and now here i was out in the middle of the night and after a slaughter like that, too. it was probably after eleven. later i called the boarding school and my director answered. he said, "karina, where are you?" i didn't know, i was calling from a public phone outside and didn't know where i was. i got confused and hung up the receiver. from him i only found out what time it was, i asked him, "what time is it?" he said 11:20, i think, but i don't really remember. so anyway zhasmen and i went out into the courtyard. i look and see what appears to be a person not far from our apartment. and there was the smell of something burnt. i became horrified. i looked at the corpse for a long time. it was either ira or edik. i only saw one of them, zhasmen grabbed my hand and squeezed it: "hurry up, let's go . . . hurry up, come on, what are you turning around for?" i turned around and saw a large truck, it must have belonged to the bandits, because they came to kill us in a truck like that. we lived in the third entryway, and that truck was next to the fourth. we walked quickly, holding hands. i thought, if i go to the police then they'll put me away. i couldn't count on them. before i reached the police station i saw a military vehicle. we went over and i said, "soldier, in block 41, i don't know if they've killed people or injured them--we need to save them!" and he said, "go to the police station and tell them everything." i said, "i'm afraid to go there, i'm afraid of them." he said, "don't be afraid." we went to the police and they wrote down the address, and the military vehicle went to our building. i didn't go with them, they left me at the police station. i gave the addresses of my mother and my brothers so that they'd rescue them, too. i didn't know where they were or what had happened to after a while they brought my children and ira and lilia. first they took us to the kgb, that was at two or three in the morning. then around five they took us to the city party committee, and there were very many people there, very many. i was pregnant and was wearing nothing but a dress. seryozha was only wearing a shirt, and kristina had a little dress on. no coat, no boots, nothing! and we sat there for three whole days in the city party committee. the lezgin had told me that igor escaped. and i thought that he was probably alive. but then after two and a half days, they took us, the armenians of sumgait, to nasosny. on march 6 some people from the central committee came and told us, "karina, ira, we need you, come with us to the city party committee." my mamma had come to nasosny, and she had been looking for me for six days. mama, my brothers, and my uncle. we went to the city party committee and waited there in the courtyard. i was wearing nothing but a dress, and ira had only a dress on as well. there was a strong wind on march 6. an hour went by. and then one of the functionaries told us, "karina, ira, gather your courage. would you like to go to the burial?" i said, "what, did they really kill all of them?!" he said, "let's look." he had a long list, and he started reading them off: igor melkumian, my husband, eduard melkumian, my brother-in- law, irina melkumian, my sister-in-law, sogomon melkumian, my father-in-law, and raisa melkumian, my mother-in-law. he read off all their names and said, "get in the car, let's go to the burial." we buried our family. i couldn't believe it at the time, i couldn't conceive of it or imagine it . . . and even now i think how shall i explain it to my children when they're older? my children were very attached to their father and their grandfather and grandmother. kristina didn't love me the way she loved her grandfather and grandmother, they spoiled her. kristina would always announce, "my grandma is better than anyone!" now, even though she is getting used to my mother, it's difficult for her, and once she told her: "you're a bad grandmother." i don't know why, i asked her, "kristina, where's papa?" and she said, "they killed him." she knows, she understands it all. and recently i scolded seryozha severely for something, and he started shouting at me, "when papa comes i'm going to tell him everything!" july 26, 1988 nairi boarding house near the village of arzakan hrazdan district armenian ssr - - - reference - - - [1] _the sumgait tragedy; pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan, volume i, eyewitness accounts_, edited by samuel shahmuradian, forward by yelena bonner, 1990, published by aristide d. caratzas, ny, page 318-324 david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "armenia has not learned a lesson in s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | anatolia and has forgotten the p.o. box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93 cambridge, ma 02238 | -- late turkish president turgut ozal 
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 # >> i am not aware of any such incidents. # >> i've read most of the history books dealing with this period, # >> good and bad, and while it is possible that i missed one or two, # >> none of those i've read documents any razing of mosques. so i # >> think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation. # >for the forgetful newcomers, here are the references. # >the reference i based my posting on originally is the book "the west # >bank story", by rafik halabi (new york: harcourt brace jovanovich # >1982. original title: die westbank story). # >quoting from the west bank story, pages 35-36: # >"on the night of june 10, an israeli officer marched from door to door # >through the moghrabi quarter [of east jerusalem] giving the residents # >three hours' notice to evacuate their homes. # >... [the participants in a # >july 24, 1967 meeting of a group of arab relgious and political # >figures] protested the immodest dress of israelis visiting the mosques # >and the destruction of two mosques in the moghrabi quarter adjacent to # >the western wall." # this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of # just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that # oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. even in your # location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing # with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the # issue at hand here. then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost # off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed. tim, you're missing the big sleight-of-hand here. i can accept every word quoted from halabi and still have zero evidence of any mosques being razed. note that what halabi refers to is not that mosques were razed but that people protested alleged razing. too well we know that this is a common demagogic tactic (or has anyone forgotten the temple mount riots, when the moslem crowd was led to believe that the israeli guards were there to cover for the tmf instead of stop them?) --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 i think there are some generally accepted criteria according to which one can evaluate whether certain policies or practices constitute racial discrimination. these criteria are to be found for example in the 1. international convention for abolition of all forms of racial discrimination (ratified by most countries) 2. the international covenant of political and civil rights 3. the human rights charter 4. the european convention of human rights if one reads carefully how racial discrimination is defined in these legally binding instruments, and does not resort to sophistry, it is obvious that the state of israel is guilty of racial discrimination. the people suffering the most extreme form of racial discriminatnion by the zionist regime are the palestinian refugees, some of whom live under israeli military control and others who live in the diaspora. they are not entitled to return to their homeland for the sole reason that they are not jews. international law does not include any provisions which permits such denial of rights, under any circumstance. israel's actions of denial are totally illegal and immoral. by allowing the return of the refugees and permitting them to settle in tel in any area of the state of israel, the state would finally gain its legitimaty under international law and could be justified in asking to be recognized. it would facilitate the peaceful integration of israel into the middle-east and constitute the best guarantee for permanent jewish presence - in the area. any attempt to create a separation, formal and human, between the israeli jewish and palestinian arab communities, is fraught with genociadal implications. i hope that u.s. jews, who sincerely wish that peace prevail in israel/palestine, will finally realize this fact. elias davidsson ps: please read carefully the first post in this topic, where the facts of zionist racial discrimination are described. 
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 the following are quotations from zionist leaders. they appear in numerous scholarly works dealing with the palestine question. i urge those who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be. elias davidsson quotations from zionist leaders 1. "there was no such thing as palestinians" (golda meir, prime minister of israel, london sunday times, 15 june 1969) 2. "there is, however, a difficulty from which the zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. palestine proper has already its inhabitants." (israel zangwill, the voice of jerusalem, london 1920, p.88) 3. "when we have settled the land, all the arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." (raphael eitan, israeli chief of staff, new york times, 14 april 1983) 4. "[the palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." (menachem begin, prime minister of israel in a speech to the knesset, quoted in amnon kapeliouk, 'begin and the "beasts", new statesman, 25 june 1982) 5. "both the process of expropriation [of the palestinians] and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly". (dr. theodor herzl, the complete diaries, herzl press, 1960, i., p.88) 6. "between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people together in this country...the only solution is a palestine.....without arabs. and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left." (joseph weitz, jewish national fund, administrator responsible for zionist colonization. davar, 29 september 1967). 7."we shall try to spirit the penniless population [the palestinians] across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country" (theodor herzl, the complete diaries, herzl press, 1960, i, p.88) 8. "[zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of thousands of sulky arabs who remained in the galilee to flee...i gathered all the jewish muktars, who have contact with arabs in different villages and asked them to whisper in the ears of some arabs that a great jewish reinforcement has arrived in galilee and that it is going to burn all of the villages of the huleh. they should suggest to these arabs, as their friends, to escape while there is still time....the tactic reached its goal....wide areas were cleaned." (yig'al alon, sepher ha palmach, in hebrew, ii. p.268, quoted in khalidi, from haven to conquest, ips, 1971). 10. "[jews] must expel arabs and take their place" (david ben gurion, 1937, quoted in shabtai teveth, ben gurion and the palestine arabs, oxford university press, 1985, p. 89) 11. "we must do everything to ensure they [the palestinian refugees] never do return" (david ben gurion, in his diary, 19 july 1948, quoted in michael bar zohar, ben gurion: the armed prophet, prentice-hall, 1967, p.157) 12. "the country was mostly an empty desert, with only a few islands of arab settlement" (shimon peres, minister of defense, quoted in david's sling: the arming of israel, weidenfeld and nicholson, 1970, p.249) 13. "all this story about the danger of extermination [of jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of new arab territories" (mordechai bentov, israeli cabinet minister, al hamishmar, 14 april 1972) 14. "neither jewish ethics nor jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat" (yitzhak shamir, hehazit, summer 1943 [journal of the lehi, the stern gang], translated from the israeli daily al-hamishmar, 24 december 1987 14. "the domination of jewish agriculture by arab workers is a cancer in our body" (a. uzan, israeli minister of agriculture, ha'aretz, 13 december 1974) 15. "there can be only one national home in palestine, and that a jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between jews and arabs" (montague david eder, president of the zionist federation of great britain, 1931, in doreen ingrams, comp., palestine papers 1917-1922, seeds of conflict, george braziller, 1973, p. 135) 16. "i hope that the jewish frontiers of palestine will be as great as jewish energy for getting palestine" (dr. chaim weizmann, first president of the state of israel, excerpts from his historic statements, writings and addresses, jewish agency for palestine, 1952, p.48) 17. "there is not a single jewish village in this country that has not been built on the site of an arab village" (moshe dayan, ha'aretz, 4 april 1969...) 18. "some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have been prepared" (aharon yariv, former chief of israeli military intelligence, 1980, inquiry, 8 december 1980) 19. "if i was an arab leader i would never make [peace] with israel. that is natural: we have taken their country." (david ben gurion, in nahum goldmann, the jewish paradox, weidenfeld and nicolson, 1978, p.99) 20. "we should there [in palestine] form a portion of the rampart of europe against asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." (dr. theodor herzl, the jewish state, london, 1896, p. 29) 21. "i deeply believe in launching preventive war against the arab states without further hesitation. by doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the annihilation of arab power; and secondly, the expansion of our territory" (menachem begin, in a speech to the knesset, 12 october 1955) 22. "during the last 100 years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation, of expansion, of getting additional jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here. let no jew say that the process has ended. let no jew say that we are near the end of the road." (moshe dayan, ma'ariv, 7 july 1968) 23. "until the british left, no jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the arabs, while the haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many arab positions and liberated tiberias and haifa, jaffa and safad" (david ben gurion, rebirth and destiny of israel, philosophical library, 1954, p.530) 24. "in the months preceding the arab invasion [of 1948], and while the five arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into arab territory. the conquest of jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for hebrew independence early in may, on the eve of the invasion by the five arab states." (menachem begin, the revolt, nash, 1972, p.348) 25. "what the french could do in tunisia, i said, the jews would be able to do in palestine with jewish will, jewish money, jewish power and jewish enthusiasm" (dr. chaim weizmann, first president of the state of israel, trial and error, harper, 1949, p.244) 26. "i do not think nasser wanted war. the two divisions he sent to the sinai on may 14 [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against israel. he knew it and we knew it." (yitzhak rabin, le monde, 29 february 1968) 27. "to pretend that the egyptian forces massed on our frontiers [in 1967] were in position to threaten the existence of israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the zahal [israeli army]" (general res. matti peled, ha'aretz, 19 march 1972) 28. "when we have broken the strength of the arab legion and bombarded amman, we would wipe out transjordan; after that syria would fall....we would thus end the war, and would have put paid to egypt, assyria and chaldea on behalf of our ancestors" (david ben gurion in his diaries, quoted in michael bar- zohar, the armed prophet, a biography of ben-gurion, prentice-hall, 1967, p.139) 29. "these jews of the diaspora would like to see us, for their own reasons, heroes with our backs to the wall. but this wish can in no way change the realities." (israeli general ezer weizmann, le monde, 3 june 1972) 30. "let us not today fling accusations at the [palestinian arab] murderers. who are we that we should argue against their hatred ? for eight years now they sit in their refugee camps in gaza, and before their very eyes, we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in which they and their forefathers have lived. we are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. let us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of arabs, who sit all around us. let us not avert our gaze, so that our hand shall not slip. this is the fate of our generation, the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our first, and our life will be snuffed out." (moshe dayan, eulogy of roy rutenberg at kibbutz nahal oz, 1956, quoted in uri avneri, israel without zionists, collier books, macmillan, new york, 1971, p.154) 
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 labour's enclaves policy in the occupied territories by israel shahak publ. in middle east international, london, 30.4.93 it is not difficult to discover israel's policy towards the palestinians at any given time. it can be easily inferred from the facts on the ground and from the information provided by the hebrew press. there is one condition, though. the torrents of claptrap about "the peace process" must be totally ignored, as must israel's official pronouncements, whole sole purpose is to distort reality. by concentrating only on the facts, it was early apparent that labour's policies were no different from those of shamir but for their greater reliance on deceit and their more effective implementation. likud's policies were accurately described by ariel sharon in an article, accompanied by a map, in yediot aharonot last august. the sharon plan envisaged a division of the west bank into seven, and the gaza strip into four, "autonomous" palestinian enclaves, all of them under israeli supervision. the total area of these enclaves amounted to about 15 per cent of the territories. the rest was to be controlled by the israeli settlements and the highways built around the enclaves. the entire area around jerusalem, from the outskirts of ramallah to the boundaries of bethlehem, has already been turned into a "greater jerusalem" where the arab- inhabited localities amount to small enclaves surrounded by areas occupied by israeli settlements or reserved for judging from labour's settlement policy, it may be assumed that it may content itself with a lesser number of arab enclaves of a rather larger size than sharon had planned. but the principle of surrounding the enclaves by settlements strategically dispersed along the highways remains unchanged. labour plans only four enclaves in the west bank: two in "samaria" and two in "judea" (i.e. north and south of jerusalem respectively), and no more than two in the gaza strip. in regard to "greater jerusalem", labour's policies hardly deviate from sharon's. a saner version of likud policy as some israeli correspondents at once realised, labour policies were but a saner version of sharon's extravaganza. last july, gideon eshet wrote in yediot aharonot that, while "barely a few months ago" labour supported the demand to freeze all construction beyond the green line, "no specific decision to freeze construction in the territories has been taken". and uzi benziman wrote in ha'aretz that "as far as can be judged on the basis of the internal political discussions in jerusalem, rabin intends to stick to likud's ways". the two biggest enclaves envisaged by labour are located in "samaria". therefore the belt of settlements around the "trans-samaria highway", designed to separate those enclaves from each other, is of paramount importance. according to the latest data, the percentage of israeli settlers in the entire west bank population (apart from east jerusalem) is a mere 5.5 per cent. but for the area around the "trans-samaria highway", the corresponding figure is almost 20 per cent, and it is increasing steadily. the situation in the settlements of the "efrat block" south of jerusalem, designed to sever the enclave around bethlehem from the one around hebron, is pretty much the same. the "efrat block" is now being connected with west jerusalem by a highway. the project is costly in the extreme, because the highway is designed to bypass bethlehem by a sequence of long tunnels. the final decision to build this highway was suspended until rabin's return from his us visit in march. the subsequent decision to renew its construction can be seen as us approval for the enclaves plan as a process of impoverishment the enclaves plan implies deliberate and steady impoverishment of the palestinians. this is well known in israel but ignored abroad by all who should be concerned, including the plo. in regard to the gaza strip, the whole process was best described by ze'ev shiff in ha'aretz in march. he mentions having seen "a pamphlet issued six years ago by the civil administration forecasting the conditions in the gaza strip under israeli rule in 2000". his analysis deserves to be quoted extensively: "we continue to steal the strip's water, even though its quality deteriorates from year to year. we continue to steal the strip's tiny land resources, in order to found there more and more settlements, as if we deliberately want to make the inhabitants despair, and in their despair think in termws of having nothing to lose. it is by our own doing that the strip's workers must now spend travelling to their workplaces almost as much time as they spend working. from the military point of view, we have kept control of no more than half the strip's area at an increasingly exorbitant price in manpower and resources. about a year before moshe arens left the defence ministry, i heard him saying that we should withdraw from the strip come what may. his argument was that israel sinks into the strip ever deeper and deeper. he told me he had proposed this to yitzhak shamir but he rejected it." yitzhak rabin rejects it too. enormous state support for the qatif block settlers can also be cited as proof that the enclaves plan is being implemented. the qatif block settlements, founded by the first rabin government of 1974-77, are intended to divide the gaza strip into two separate enclaves. efraim davidi of davar had data showing how vital for israeli this enterprise is. "the qatif block is now producing 40 per cent of israeli tomatoes destined for export, and a substantial proportion of cut flowers." he also deals with the subsidies the settlers receive, considerably augmented by the present government. owing to them, housing units are cheap. the present government does not spare efforts to recruit new settlers to the block. "any prospective settler will get a 95 per cent mortgage for his house on top of a grant of 18,000 shekels ($6,500)." such data shows that israel's plans apply whether the palestinians of the gaza strip are allowed or forbidden to work in israel. the economic motivations were explained by danny rubinstein in ha'aretz in march: "from the economic viewpoint gaza could already be sealed off hermetically and all the strip's workers could be barred from entering israel...even though accurate data is hard to come by, it is indisputable that during the last two years the numbes of gazan workers arriving daily to work in israel has markedly decreased, from 80,000 in the mid'80s to 40,000 today. but the decrease is not only due to restrictions imposed on entering israel from gaza. it is also due to the drastic curtailment of demand for gazan labour in israel. with unemployment in israel soaring and the construction of apartments blocks virtually halted, the workers from gaza are no longer really needed..." gaza's total dependence the entire economy of the gaza strip is totally dependent on israel. in recent years in the gaza strip there has been an increase in sub-contracted work for israeli factories, mostly footware and textiles. thousands of small workshops, employing an average of four workers, get their raw materials or unfinished products, together with detailed working instructions, from israeli factories. rubinstein attributes this development to the fact that "the average wage in the gaza strip is merely 40 per cent of that in the west bank, which in turn stands at half the average wage in israel; and besides the gazan employer does not pay any social security for his employees." if the average wage in the gaza strip is just a fifth of that in israel, the profits of israeli factories and even of palestinian sub-contractors must be vast. they are higher still when "a gazan sub-contractor provides labour to be performed at home, with the family's help. the livelihood of tens of thousands of gazans depends on such sub-contracted work." many of them are women and children, paid about ten shekels ($3.50) a day which can last 12 hours or more. there can be no doubt that profits from exploiting cheap gazan labour are one of the reasons for the stubborn opposition of rabin and other israeli ministers to withdrawal from the strip. economic conditions in the gaza strip differ little from what was created straight after israel's conquest [in 1967]. in this respect, one should not be deluded by the talk, nowadays fashionable, about israeli gestures intended to "encourage economic development in the territories", as israeli journalists point out, all permits for opening new businesses depend on a prior approval by the shin bet. "behind all the professed goodwill there is no desire to solve problems, just the attitude of a good colonialist, willing to do something for the benefit of the natives, but on condition that they behave nicely, do not become rebellious, and never do anything against the interests of the metropolis, its economic interests included," wrote michal sela in davar in february. the development of sub-contracted work in the gaza strip accords perfectly with sela's diagnosis. sela also shows how exactly the economic controls work. "in all branches of the economy, lobbies have been set in motion for purposes of freeing israeli production from the threat of any palestinian competition. the method is simplicity itself. as soon as any israeli producer succeeds in persuading the government, or even the trade and industry minister alone, a military order is issued prohibiting the export of a given produce to israel. if this does not suffice, a palestinian factory may be denied a licence to operate or bureaucratic obstacles may paralyse its production." among the most active of such lobbies is the agricultural one. it has succeeded in limiting exports of gazan vegetables (except for those grown by settlers) not only to israel but also to europe, where they otherwise might compete with israeli exports. perpetuaring apartheid labour's goal is to perpetuate this apartheid regime in the territories. the same goal is shared by the us, which otherwise could not support the labour government so firmly. in my view one of the reasons the us feels happier about supporting labour than likud is its greater efficiency in pursuing the settlement drive. this point was brought home by ofer shelah in ma'ariv, who deplored the settlers' failure which he attributed to likud's inefficiency. he showed that the peak yearly settlement growth "occured during the term of office of the national unity government (i.e. 1984-90) in which rabin served throughout as the defence minister". likud's reputation for settling the territories better than labour is false, attributable to the many tiny settlements without strategic value founded under shamir for symbolic reasons. to sum up: labour's policy, unconditionally supported by the us differs from that of likud primarily in the efficiency with which it is implemented. according to that policy the territories are to be divided into two parts. the major part is to be ruled by israel directly, and the minor part indirectly. in my view, this racist scheme is doomed to ultimately fail, but at a horrifying price in human suffering. the sooner its true nature is recognised, the less suffering it may cause. 
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 allegations of jewish disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and rumors of church and host desacration probably caused more pogroms than blood libel. about 2 years ago, there was a lot of noise about a church in the old city of jerusalem being taken over by a jewish group. in fact, the building in question was a dormitory that belonged to a church and was not physically connected to any church. it had been leased to a palestinean arab for 99 years and a jewish group sub-leased it from him. the church that owned the building disapproved and legal action was started to revoke the sub-lease. the media, however, made it look like jewish vigilantes were stealing church property in jerusalem by the stereotypes that pervade our culture create cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. therefore any claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented. the damage has already been done by the press in the above case. it is not surprising by now, of course, that many "decent people" regard the press "with utmost suspicion". if such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be given the first time it appears. now that the claim has been documented, i regard the whole episode as disgusting and shameful. especially so because the official who failed to provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted jordanians was probably jewish, and as a jew i know that he should have known better. you appear to be referring to moshe dayan. how do you know that the "evicted jordanians" were not provided with something else? in fact, this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways! woe to jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining jews) is "disgusting and shameful". jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77221">
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 my words. if he behaves as mutlu, he would carry the similar treatment (especially as his oversized articles are 90% scanned from propagandist leaflets or from other stuff easily available in any decent library). typical 'virvir' drivel. people will think you're just some looney howling in the wires. if you think that this 'clears things up' for me or anyone else, you must also believe that aliens from outer space come to earth regularly and abduct 'arromdians' of asala/sdpa/arf for medical experiments. there is stronger evidence for *that* you know. 'propagandist leaflets'? this is an american officer on the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people by the armenians between 1914 and 1920, not a crook/idiot like yourself. source: "world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn. crown publishers, inc., new york (1952). (memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people) p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph). 'the most are inside houses. come you and look.' 'no, dammit! my stomach isn't-' 'one is a turkish officer in uniform. him you must see.' "we were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space.... 'i don't believe you," i said, but followed to a nail-studded door. the man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. i thought i should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and went inside. the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for its stone walls had only window slits. rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot. all looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man's body lying face up, naked but for its grimy turban. he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. the one left slanted, as with tartars rather than with turks. any uniform once on him was gone, so i'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals." p. 363 (first paragraph). 'how many people lived there?' 'oh, about eight hundred.' he yawned. 'did you see any turk officers?' 'no, sir. i was in at dawn. all were tartar civilians in mufti.' "the lieutenant dozed off, then i, but in the small hours a voice woke me - dro's. he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i'd never heard. then abruptly dro broke into laughter, quick and simple as child's. both were a cover for his sense of guilt, i thought, or hoped. for somehow, despite my boast of irreligion, christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would have been. from daybreak on, armenian villagers poured in from miles around..... the women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul. they hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, looms, even spinning-wheels. 'thank you for a lot, dro,' i said to him back in camp. 'but now i must leave.'...we shook hands, the captain said 'a bientot, mon camarade.' and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains. like lot's wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran.'" p. 354. "at morning tea, dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh. deep in tactics, they spoke russian, but i got their contempt for allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs. a campaign shaped; more raids on moslem villages." p. 358. "it will be three hours to take," dro told me. we'd close in on three "the men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," merrimanov said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow. "that is for morale," dro put in. "we must keep the moslems in terror." "soldiers or civilians?" i asked. "there is no difference," said dro. "all are armed, in uniform or not." "but the women and children?" "will fly with the others as best they may." p. 360. "the ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. hundreds of feet down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'djul lies under that,' said dro, pointing. 'our men also attack from the other sides.' then, 'whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. bayonets clicked upon carbines. over plunged archo, his black haunches rippling; then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the spur. armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though i heard our utica brass roar. as i watched from the height, it took ages for djul to show clear. a tsing of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed, dogs barked, invisible, while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle. mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly. the came a shrill wailing. now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. a mosque stood in clump of trees, thick and green. through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot. 'tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked breech-cord, firing again and again. shots wasted, i thought, when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body. but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries. at length all shooting petered out. i got on my horse and rode down toward djul. it burned still but little flame showed now. the way was steep and tough, through dense scrub. finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly, through alders, on smoldering houses. across trampled wheat my brothers-in- arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb." p. 361 (fourth paragraph). "corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, large eyes. she looked about twelve years old. she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. the bayonet had gone through her back, i judged, for blood around was scant. between the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun the next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. he lay face down in the path by several huts. one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. steel had jabbed just below his neck, into the spine. there were grownups, too, i saw as i led the sorrel around. djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro's german-speaking colonel. he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead." p. 358. "...more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north. my hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - christian, red or tartar - coming in from transcaucasus. then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'armenian' vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan... an armenia without armenians! turks under christian rule? his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. that's bloodshed - just smyrna over again on a bigger scale." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 maybe the following example helps. it is understandable that the views of a-gic are his alone. nevertheless any independent or 'alone'? sorry, but the following western scholars are forced to disagree with you. during the first world war and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland. the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the 20th century acted upon an entire people. this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as u.s. ambassador mark bristol, william langer, ambassador layard, james barton, stanford shaw, arthur chester, john dewey, robert dunn, papazian, nalbandian, ohanus appressian, jorge blanco villalta, general nikolayef, general bolkovitinof, general prjevalski, general odiselidze, meguerditche, kazimir, motayef, twerdokhlebof, general hamelin, rawlinson, avetis aharonian, dr. stephan eshnanie, varandian, general bronsart, arfa, dr. hamlin, boghos nubar, sarkis atamian, katchaznouni, rachel bortnick, halide edip, mccarthy, w. b. allen, paul muratoff and many j. c. hurewitz, professor of government emeritus, former director of the middle east institute (1971-1984), columbia university. bernard lewis, cleveland e. dodge professor of near eastern history, princeton university. halil inalcik, university professor of ottoman history & member of the american academy of arts & sciences, university of chicago. peter golden, professor of history, rutgers university, newark. stanford shaw, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. thomas naff, professor of history & director, middle east research institute, university of pennsylvania. ronald jennings, associate professor of history & asian studies, university of illinois. howard reed, professor of history, university of connecticut. dankwart rustow, distinguished university professor of political science, city university graduate school, new york. john woods, associate professor of middle eastern history, university of chicago. john masson smith, jr., professor of history, university of california at berkeley. alan fisher, professor of history, michigan state university. avigdor levy, professor of history, brandeis university. andreas g. e. bodrogligetti, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. kathleen burrill, associate professor of turkish studies, columbia university. roderic davison, professor of history, george washington university. walter denny, professor of history, university of massachusetts. caesar farah, professor of history, university of minnesota. tom goodrich, professor of history, indiana university of pennsylvania. tibor halasi-kun, professor emeritus of turkish studies, columbia university. justin mccarthy, professor of history, university of louisville. jon mandaville, professor of history, portland state university (oregon). robert olson, professor of history, university of kentucky. madeline zilfi, professor of history, university of maryland. james stewart-robinson, professor of turkish studies, university of michigan. .......so the list goes on and on and on..... as for the genocide of the azeri people by the armenians: source: channel 4 news at 19.00, monday 2 march 1992. 2 french journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children in civilian clothes. many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less than 1 meter. source: bbc1 morning news at 07.37, tuesday 3 march 1992. bbc reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100 bodies of azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance. source: bbc1 morning news at 08:12, tuesday 3 march 1992. very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were picked up from mountain. reporter said he, cameraman and western journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, children, massacred by armenians. they have been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 meter. picture also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. azerbaijan claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by armenian forces. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 serdar argic, i implore you, please stop posting and reposting all those messages regarding armenian actions. call it what you will, but i see them as "hate messages" rather than "facts". every civilization as old as the turkish and armenian civilizations are guilty of barbaric acts, and this is no longer the time nor the place to espouse such hatred. what good will it do? i read a lot of newsgroups to gain "hate messages" rather than "facts"? sorry, but your argument falls flat on its face. some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle-eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslims 1. "the armenian revolutionary movement" by louise nalbandian, university of california press, berkeley, los angeles, 1975 2. "diplomacy of imperialism 1890-1902" by william i. lenger, professor of history, harward university, boston, alfred a. knopt, new york, 1951 3. "turkey in europe" by sir charles elliot, edward & arnold, london, 1900 4. "the chatnam house version and other middle-eastern studies" by elie kedouri, praeger publishers, new york, washington, 1972 5. "the rising crescent" by ernest jackh, farrar & reinhart, inc., new york & toronto, 1944 6. "spiritual and political evolutions in islam" by felix valyi, mogan, paul, trench & truebner & co., london, 1925 7. "the struggle for power in moslem asia" by e. alexander powell, the century co., new york, london, 1924 8. "struggle for transcaucasia" by feruz kazemzadeh, yale university press, new haven, conn., 1951 9. "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey" (2 volumes) by stanford j. shaw, cambridge university press, cambridge, new york, melbourne, 1977 10."the western question in greece and turkey" by arnold j. toynbee, constable & co., ltd., london, bombay & sydney, 1922 11."the caliph's last heritage" by sir mark sykes, macmillan & co., london, 1915 12."men are like that" by leonard a. hartill, bobbs co., indianapolis, 1928 13."adventures in the near east, 1918-22" by a. rawlinson, dodd, meade & co., 1925 14."world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn, crown publishers, inc., new york, 1952 15."from sardarapat to serves and lousanne" by avetis aharonian, the armenian review magazine, volume 15 (fall 1962) through 17 (spring 1964) 16."armenia on the road to independence" by richard g. hovanessian, university of california press, berkeley, california, 1967 17."the rebirth of turkey" by clair price, thomas seltzer, new york, 1923 18."caucasian battlefields" by w. b. allen & paul muratoff, cambridge, 1953 19."partition of turkey" by harry n. howard, h. fertig, new york, 1966 20."the king-crane commission" by harry n. howard, beirut, 1963 21."united states policy and partition of turkey" by laurence evans, john hopkins university press, baltimore, 1965 22."british documents related to turkish war of independence" by gothard 1. neside kerem demir, "bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri: turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi," hulbe basim ve yayin t.a.s., ankara, 1982. (ingilizce birinci baski: 1980, "the armenian question in turkey") 2. veysel eroglu, "ermeni mezalimi," sebil yayinevi, istanbul, 1978. 3. a. alper gazigiray, "osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari," gozen kitabevi, istanbul, 1982. 4. dr. kirzioglu m. fahrettin, "kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi," kardes matbaasi, ankara, 1970. t.c. basbakanlik osmanli arsivi, babiali, istanbul: a) yildiz esas evraki b) yildiz perakende c) irade defterleri d) cemaat-i gayr-i muslime defterleri e) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f) dahiliye nezareti, kalem-i mahsus dosyalari g) dahiliye nezareti, sifre defterleri h) babiali evrak odasi: siyasi kartonlar i) babiali evrak odasi: muhimme kartonlari t.c. disisleri bakanligi, hazine-i evrak, defterdarlik a) harb-i umumi b) muteferrik kartonlar british archives: a) parliamentary papers (hansard): commons/lords b) foreign office: confidential print: various collections c) foreign office: 424/239-253: turkey: correspondence - annual reports d) foreign office: 608 e) foreign office: 371, political intelligence: general correspondence f) foreign office: 800/240, ryan papers g) foreign office: 800/151, curzon papers h) foreign office: 839: the eastern conference: lausanne. 53 files india office records and library, blackfriars road, london. a) l/political and security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "turkey: treaty of peace: 1918-1923" b) l/p & s/10/1031, "near east: turkey and greece: lausanne conference, 1921-1923" c) l/p & s/11/154 d) l/p & s/11/1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres, quai d'orsay, paris. a) documents diplomatiques: affaires armeniens: 1895-1914 collections b) guerre: 1914-1918: turquie: legion d'orient. c) levant, 1918-1929: armenie. official publications, published documents, diplomatic correspondence, agreements, minutes and others a. turkey (the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey) akarli, e. (ed.); "belgelerle tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978). (gn. kur., atase); "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxi (81), (dec. 1982). ----; "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxii (83), (dec. 1983). hocaoglu, m. (ed.); "ittihad-i anasir-i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi," (istanbul, 1912). meray, s. l. (trans./ed.) "lozan baris konferansi: tutanaklar-belgeler," (ankara, 1978), 2 vols. meray, s. l./o. olcay (ed.); "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri; mondros birakismasi, sevr andlasmasi, ilgili belgeler," (ankara, 1977). (osmanli devleti, dahiliye nezareti); "aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane," (istanbul, 1917). ----; "ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket-i ihtilaliyesi: ilan-i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra," (istanbul, 1916). ----; "idare-i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu," (istanbul, 1913). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. i (istanbul, 1914). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. ii (istanbul, 1915). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iii (istanbul, 1916). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iv (istanbul, 1917). (osmanli devleti, hariciye nezareti); "imtiyazat-i ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname," (istanbul, 1915). (osmanli devleti, harbiye nezareti); "islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat," (istanbul, 1919). ----; (iv. ordu) "aliye divan-i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele-yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat," (istanbul, 1916). turkozu, h. k. (ed.); "osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi," (ankara, 1982). ----; "turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari," (ankara, 1985), 4 vols. adamof, e. e. (ed.); "sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani," (tran. h. rahmi, ed. h. mutlucag), (istanbul, 1972). altinay, a. r.; "iki komite - iki kital," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "turkiye'de katolik propagandasi," turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi, v. xiv/82-5 (sept. 1924). asaf muammer; "harb ve mesulleri," (istanbul, 1918). akboy, c.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi, v. i: osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi," (gn. kur., ankara, 1970). akgun, s.; "general harbord'un anadolu gezisi ve (ermeni meselesi'ne dair) raporu: kurtulus savasi baslangicinda," (istanbul, 1981). akin, i.; "turk devrim tarihi," (istanbul, 1983). aksin, s.; "jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki," (istanbul, 1976). basar, z. (ed.);"ermenilerden gorduklerimiz," (ankara, 1974). ----; "ermeniler hakkinda makaleler - derlemeler," (ankara, 1978). belen, f.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi," (ankara, 1964). deliorman, a.; "turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri," (istanbul, 1980). ege, n. n. (ed.); "prens sabahaddin: hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari," (istanbul, 1977). ercikan, a.; "ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri," (ankara, 1949). gurun, k.; 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu," (izmir, 1983). hocaoglu, m.; "arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler," (istanbul, 1976). karal, e. s.; "osmanli tarihi," v. v (1983, 4th ed.); v. vi (1976, 2nd ed.); v. vii (1977, 2nd ed.); v. viii (1983, 2nd ed.) ankara. kurat, y. t.; "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi," (ankara, 1976). orel, s./s. yuca; "ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu," (ankara, 1983). [also in english translation.] ahmad, f.; "the young turks: the committee of union and progress in turkish politics," (oxford, 1969). serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 some articles on the topic: rtw 12/23 0859 gulf arabs demand iran withdrawal from islands (eds: updates with end of summit details, quotes) by youssef azmeh abu dhabi, dec 23, reuter - gulf arab states, emerging from a summit that restored their unity after almost three months of crisis, piled pressure on iran on wednesday to reverse its virtual annexation of a strategic gulf island. they issued a statement after a three-day gulf cooperation council summit saying iran had to show proof of its good neighbourly intentions by rescinding measures that "rocked gulf stability and security." the leaders avoided the anti-iranian rhetoric of recent statements by egypt, which engineered a last minute settlement of a border row between saudi arabia and qatar that allowed all members to attend the summit. egypt said its fears about iranian intentions in the region and tehran's alleged encouragement of moslem fundamentalist unrest were largely behind president hosni mubarak's mediation. the gcc statement stressed that developing relations between the gulf arab states and iran "is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures iran might take in line with its commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the region's states." it denounced iran's measures on the island of abu musa, which it shares with the united arab emirates, and the continued occupation of the greater and lesser tumbs iran earlier this year extended its control over abu musa beyond a small garrison it established there in 1971 under an agreement with the uae emirate of sharjah. it has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the island for the uae government. but diplomats say it continues to exercise its authority over the whole island, which the uae sess as as virtual annexation. the tumbs were occupied by the former shah of iran in 1971 and the uae has since the abu musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part of a general the gcc leaders called on the u.n. to maintain sanctions against iraq for not fully implementing security council resolutions following its 1990 invasion of they endorsed once again the "damascus declaration," a pact signed with egypt and syria after their troops took part in the u.s. led alliance that drove iraqi troops out of but delegates said the leaders were unable to agree the details of a fund they announced they would create at their last summit in kuwait last year which would have helped egypt's and syria's economic development programme. they said the leaders could not agree on a breakdown of contributions from each state although the total amount had been scaled down to $6 billion from the $10 billion agreed last year. the fact that the leaders of all gcc states -- saudi arabia, bahrain, kuwait, oman and qatar -- attended the summit was seen as a major achievement although their unity was only maintained with outside help. most delegations were not too worried for the moment about the slow progress of the conservative rulers discussions on a future security structure for the region that boasts the bulk of global oil and gas reserves. the leaders were unable to choose between two proposals. one put forward by a summit committee headed by oman's sultan qaboos to create a 100,000-man rapid deployment force that could rush to defend any member against external aggression, such as iraq's invasion of kuwait. another was a saudi-supported plan to expand the existing 10,000-man "peninsula shield" force which had so far played a largely symbolic role and is commanded by a saudi little headway was made on plans for a reginal common market although the summit called for concrete proposals to be submitted to next year's summit due to be held in saudi arabia next december. reuter ya dya djg rtw 12/23 0835 gulf leaders end summit abu dhabi, dec 23, reuter - gulf arab states ended a three-day annual summit on wednesday with an appeal to iran to end its occupation of three strategic gulf islands as a condition for restoring friendly ties across the gulf. a joint statement issued after the summit, marked by relief over the settlement of a row between two gulf cooperation council members, also called for continued u.n. sanctions against iraq. it said baghdad had failed to implement key security council decisions following the expulsion of its troops from kuwait early last year. the summit broke no new ground on steps to achieve a gulf common market, but called on officials to present a plan for common external tarrifs for all six members to the next summit which will be held in saudi arabia in december 1993. the statement stressed that developing relations between the gulf arab states and iran "is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures iran might take in line with its commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the region's states." it denounced iran's measures on the island of abu musa, which it shares with the united arab emirates, and the continued occupation of the smaller islands, the greater and lesser tumbs. it expressed deep regret and extreme concern for the unjustified iranian measures which contradict a proclaimed wish to develop relations and called on iran to rescind those measures and end the occupation which it said was "shaking peace and stability in the area." iran earlier this year extended its control over abu musa beyond a small garrison it established there in 1971 under an agreement with the uae emirate of sharjah. it has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the island for the uae government but diplomats in the region say that its security forces continue to exercise their authority over the whole island. the uae has seen this as virtual annexation. the tumbs were occupied by the former shah of iran in 1971 and the uae has since the abu musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part of a general reuter ya dya djg rtw 12/26 1441 iran hints it ready to go to war over islands (eds: updates with snsc statement) nicosia, dec 26, reuter - iran told its gulf arab neighbours on saturday it was ready to defend militarily three disputed islands, reminding them of its eight-year war with "our eight-year defence (in the 1980-88 iran-iraq war) has proved to the world that our brave nation will never hesitate to defend the sovereignty and safeguard the territorial integrity of iran," iran's supreme national security council (snsc) said. a meeting of the heads of the six-nation gulf cooperation council voiced full support on wednesday for the united arab emirates (uae) in its dispute with iran over the gulf islands of abu musa, greater tumb and lesser tumb. the move has triggered strong iranian criticism and warnings. besides the uae, the gcc also groups bahrain, kuwait, oman, qatar and saudi arabia. iranian president akbar hashemi rafsanjani, who chaired the snsc's meeting on saturday, said during his friday prayer sermon at tehran university: "iran is surely stronger than the likes of you. to reach these islands one has to cross a sea of blood." the snsc, quoted by the official iranian news agency irna received in cyprus, also criticised the gcc and described its support of the uae as "irresponsible." "no country will ever be able to covet even an inch of iranian soil," said the snsc. earlier on saturday, the english language tehran times, believed to be close to the foreign ministry, said the uae should be aware that iran's self-restraint had certain it dismissed a uae claim to the islands as unfounded and said a 1971 agreement to share abu musa with the uae emirate of sharjah still applied. "the idea of abu dhabi officials that tehran would always refrain from responding to the blows inflicted by them was "childish," tehran times said. irna said the newspaper was commenting on the gcc statement which urged iran to reverse what it says is the annexation of abu musa island and to pull out of the two other iran says the islands near the entrance to the gulf have historically belonged to it. the dispute flared this year after iran tightened its control over abu musa. reuter af jch rtw 12/28 1011 tehran paper wants iran revive claim to bahrain tehran, dec 28, reuter - radical iranian newspapers, angered by gulf arab claims to three disputed islands, are hitting back with demands that tehran revive its claim to bahrain and consider improving ties with iraq. president akbar hashemi rafsanjani and senior officials strongly condemned a statement last week by leaders of the gulf cooperation council (gcc) backing the united arab emirates (uae) in its dispute with iran over the gulf islands. but the newspapers salam and jomhuri eslami demanded that tehran go further than restating its resolve to defend its sovereignty over the islands of abu musa, greater tumb and lesser tumb. "it is not very clear why the sheikh of bahrain has joined the others," jomhuri eslami said. the gcc groups bahrain, kuwait, oman, qatar, saudi arabia and the uae. "if historical records are to be the criterion, the sheikh of bahrain should go about his own business and the rule of iranian people in bahrain, which belonged to iran until 1970, should be re-established," the paper said. "it is fitting for the foreign ministry to raise the question of iran's sovereignty over bahrain...and start a serious and effective drive to end the separation of bahrain from iran," it added. the late shah of iran relinquished iran's claim to bahrain in 1970, a year before the island became an independent state. iranian leaders since the 1979 islamic revolution have carefully avoided raising the bahrain issue although it is occasionally brought up in the press during periods of tension with conservative arab states across the gulf. salam newspaper said the gcc stand showed that the policy of appeasing pro-western gulf arab rulers had backfired. "no matter how much you smile at sheikhs on the southern coast of the persian gulf, it is the united states and the west which speak the last word," it said. "they (the sheikhs) are nobody," salam said, adding that iran should revise its policy towards its neighbours, especially its former war enemy iraq. "disregarding the logical potential of expanding ties with iraq...and going along with some saudi-backed trends among the iraqi opposition have played a role in the formation of the current situation," the paper said. ties between iran and iraq, which fought a war from 1980 to 1988, improved briefly after iraq invaded kuwait in 1990. but tehran, which denounced the invasion and remained neutral in the ensuing war, again called for president saddam hussein's overthrow when he suppressed a shi'ite moslem revolt which swept southern iraq after his 1991 defeat in kuwait. reuter sij mz aet 
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 elias davidsson writes... ed> the following are quotations from zionist leaders. they appear in ed> numerous scholarly works dealing with the palestine question. i urge those ed> who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the ed> source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be. it is your responsibility for posting quotes in context. your phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly, out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that i have ever seen. don't believe me, folks? let's take a little stroll through a few of elias davidsson's contributions to our understanding of the middle east. ed> quotations from zionist leaders ed> 1. "there was no such thing as palestinians" ed> (golda meir, prime minister of israel, london sunday ed> times, 15 june 1969) and what do suggest that she meant by this? do you think she meant that the palestinians don't exist? or does it actually mean that the people who self-identify as 'palestinians,' did not appear to be a distinct ethnic group in the eyes of golda ed> 2. "there is, however, a difficulty from which the zionist ed> dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. ed> palestine proper has already its inhabitants." ed> (israel zangwill, the voice of jerusalem, london 1920, ed> p.88) when this was written, seventy three years ago, the people of the region were not all jews. they are not all jews now. no jew but the most rabid bigot has ever called for an israel to be only for jews. that was true then. it is true now. ed> "[the palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." ed> (menachem begin, prime minister of israel in a speech to ed> the knesset, ed> quoted in amnon kapeliouk, 'begin and the "beasts", new ed> statesman, 25 june 1982) since you inserted the words 'the palestinians are' we cannot know what begin was talking about. for someone who wants to embellish his own importance with an absurd pseudo-organizational name like the 'center for policy research,' you are not a very honest person. ed> "both the process of expropriation [of the palestinians] ed> and the removal of the poor must be carried out ed> discreetly and circumspectly". ed> (dr. theodor herzl, the complete diaries, herzl press, ed> 1960, i., p.88) herzl died eighty nine years ago. are you suggesting that he has stated what is israel's policy today? have you ever seen israel even entertain a policy to exclude non-jews, let alone actually try to remove non-jews from israel? if you actually believe that this quote has anything to do with israel's non- jewish citizenry today, you are an idiot. but if you realize that israel has no intention of removing non-jewish israelis, then you are nothing but a common liar. this one time i will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are stupid. ed> "we shall try to spirit the penniless population [the ed> palestinians] across the border by procuring employment ed> for it in the transit countries, while denying it any ed> employment in our own country" ed> (theodor herzl, the complete diaries, herzl press, 1960, ed> i, p.88) once again you quote a man gone for almost a century. you do so within the context of modern day israel. thomas jefferson owned slaves. how does this fact define the united states today? ed> "[jews] must expel arabs and take their place" ed> (david ben gurion, 1937, quoted in shabtai teveth, ben ed> gurion and the palestine arabs, oxford university press, ed> 1985, p. 89) did he say 'jews,' or did you add this? this was also a statement from ten years before israel became a state. it has no bearing on israel. ed> "we must do everything to ensure they [the ed> palestinian refugees] never do return" ed> (david ben gurion, in his diary, 19 july 1948, quoted in ed> michael bar zohar, ben gurion: the armed prophet, ed> prentice-hall, 1967, p.157) you added the words 'the palestinian refugees.' and by doing so, you are misleading people into believing that ben gurion, who was expressing his hope that people who fled their lands, at the encouragement of people such as king abdullah, and the mufti of jerusalem, was gloating over people abandoning their homes. what he was refering to were the arabs with whom jews were at war. ed> "the country was mostly an empty desert, with only ed> a few islands of arab settlement" ed> (shimon peres, minister of defense, quoted in david's ed> sling: the arming of israel, weidenfeld and nicholson, ed> 1970, p.249) at the time of the rebirth of israel this was certainly true, especially when compared to what israel has accomplished in a few short decades. ed> "all this story about the danger of extermination [of ed> jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of ed> new arab territories" ed> (mordechai bentov, israeli cabinet minister, al ed> hamishmar, 14 april 1972) since israel has not annexed even one millimeter of territory in more twenty six years, this quote is irrelevant. ed> "neither jewish ethics nor jewish tradition can ed> disqualify terrorism as a means of combat" ed> (yitzhak shamir, hehazit, summer 1943 [journal of the ed> lehi, the stern gang], translated from the israeli daily ed> al-hamishmar, 24 december 1987 again, you are quoting a man who was fighting for what he had been promised from a time as ancient as biblical, to the time of the balfour declaration, just a few short years back. and what was thought of and described as terrorism by jews didn't include slaughtering olympic athletes, brutally murdering the innocent, attacking school buses, and murdering another human being for the sole reason that he or she is an arab. ed> "the domination of jewish agriculture by arab ed> workers is a cancer in our body" ed> (a. uzan, israeli minister of agriculture, ha'aretz, 13 ed> december 1974) there were serious concerns about a work force that consisted of people from outside israel. it is a wise to be concerned. a work force consisting of foreigners is not a good situation for a country. ed> "there can be only one national home in palestine, ed> and that a jewish one, and no equality in the partnership ed> between jews and arabs" ed> (montague david eder, president of the zionist ed> federation of great britain, 1931, ed> in doreen ingrams, comp., palestine papers 1917-1922, ed> seeds of conflict, george braziller, 1973, p. 135) this also has no meaning for a country formed seventeen years after this statement was made. obviously times change. this is not what israel is about today. i believe the peace talks make this quote irrelevant. ed> "there is not a single jewish village in this country ed> that has not been built on the site of an arab village" ed> (moshe dayan, ha'aretz, 4 april 1969...) this is completely false. ed> "some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 ed> arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have ed> been prepared" ed> (aharon yariv, former chief of israeli military ed> intelligence, 1980, inquiry, 8 december 1980) expelled from where? israel? the occupied territories? new jersey? is there any way we can read this and get an idea as to what on earth he was talking about. obviously not. ed> "we should there [in palestine] form a portion of the ed> rampart of europe against asia, an outpost of civilization ed> as opposed to barbarism." ed> (dr. theodor herzl, the jewish state, london, 1896, p. ed> 29) interesting notion. considering that this was written nearly a century ago, it is quite visionary. ed> "i deeply believe in launching preventive war ed> against the arab states without further hesitation. by ed> doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the ed> annihilation of arab power; and secondly, the expansion ed> of our territory" ed> (menachem begin, in a speech to the knesset, 12 october ed> 1955) this was said nearly forty years ago. begin is dead. and it should be obvious to anybody that if israel was expansionist, it would have annexed the occupied territories right after it captured them. israel would not be negotiating to get rid of ed> "during the last 100 years our people have been in a ed> process of building up the country and the nation, of ed> expansion, of getting additional jews and additional ed> settlements in order to expand the borders here. let no ed> jew say that the process has ended. let no jew say that ed> we are near the end of the road." ed> (moshe dayan, ma'ariv, 7 july 1968) he's dead, too. and since israel has not annexed any land at all since 1967, you are once again wasting bandwidth with all of these misleading quotes. they are so out of sync with the reality of israel, that you do nothing but make yourself look like a fanatic desperate to sway people, by misleading them. ed> "let us not today fling accusations at the [palestinian ed> arab] murderers. who are we that we should argue ed> against their hatred ? for eight years now they sit in ed> their refugee camps in gaza, and before their very eyes, ed> we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in ed> which they and their forefathers have lived. we are a ed> generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and ed> the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. let ed> us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting ed> and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of arabs, ed> who sit all around us. let us not avert our gaze, so that ed> our hand shall not slip. this is the fate of our generation, ed> the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong ed> and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our ed> first, and our life will be snuffed out." ed> (moshe dayan, eulogy of roy rutenberg at kibbutz nahal ed> oz, 1956, quoted in uri avneri, israel without zionists, collier books, macmillan, new york, 1971, p.154) interesting quote. it's true that we should never lose sight of the plight of these people. we should also recognize that this quote preceded the disgusting wave of arab terrorism and violence directed at innocent people, that began in 1972 with the massacre of the israeli athletes in munich, and continues to this day. if your ability to obscure was the equal of your desire to do so, truthseekers in this group would have a problem. but you are an easily recognized fanatic, whose stream of misleading, partial, and out-of-context quotes are totally unfettered by the burden of truth. 
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 # >this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of # >just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that # >oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. even in your # >location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing # >with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the # >issue at hand here. then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost # >off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed. # >to support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this # >incident? if identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly # >identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). the # >comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but # >by no means "proves it. # there is no doubt that israeli authorities ordered the destruction of # mosques in the vicinity of the wailing wall. that does not mean, # however, that once can generalize from this to any other points. the # entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for jews # to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of # them, and which had been denied to them for millenia. # on the other hand, throughout the rest of jerusalem and israel, to the # best of my knowledge, israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided # damage to any islamic religious sites. this contrasts with the policies # of previous regimes which destroyed jewish synagogues out of hate and # bigotry. or, for that matter, with the usa. around here, nobody reroutes freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth. they just get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through. the same is standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools and sports arenas being only two examples. anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how not? the wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty second decision for any city council i ever heard of. --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77234">
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 i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism. although i don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily i disagree. any discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the sole qualification for religious membership is racial. this is not the case for israel although it might get a little closer than, say, islam. this of course raises the vexed question of church antisemitism. jews have been heavily discriminated against on the grounds of religion in many christian countries. if we take russia as an example jews were seriously persecuted but that persecution in the eyes of the church and state stopped at the baptismal font. officially anyway. if a jew converted there were no legal barriers in his way (that i know of anyway.) peter the great's interior minister came from such a convert background. can we then claim that the russian orthodox did not teach antisemitism and was not antisemitic? similarly for the roman catholic church? i suspect so as this is not a racial 'taint' but one based on belief and as is after all a form of racism. well maybe not. what is antisemitism then if not something racially based? i wonder if hitler killed converts of 'pure' german blood. does anyone know one way or the other? joseph askew joseph askew, gauche and proud in the autumn stillness, see the pleiades, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. disclaimer? sue, see if i care north of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, actually, i rather like brenda beyond the pale, the river murmurs on. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77235">
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 |> >|> >in the ny times, on sunday, may 2, in an article on somalia, a |> >|> > " [...] but last year, iran quietly took over four islands belonging |> >|> > to the united arab emirates and deported their people, with hardly a |> >|> > protest from the united states. [...]" |> >|> >does anyone know what this is referring to? i seem to have missed it. |> >|> >(spiked, no doubt. :-) |> >|> there was something in the nyt and other sources about this for a few |> >|> days. it is an ongoing border disupute, and when the iranians kicked |> >|> out the uae people it was briefly reported (this was many moons ago). |> >|> i don't recall reading of any public us comment; if it were a strong |> >|> protest i probably would have seen it. |> >those islands would be abu musa, and the greater and lesser tunbs, i presume. |> >i don't know about a fourth. the latter two islands belong to iran and so |> according to the ny times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the united arab |> emirates." |> jake livni the ny times is in error. this is not simply my opinion; even the arab sources that i use do not make this claim. this, of course, is assuming that the ny times was refering to the islands that i named above. of those islands, only abu musa has been in dispute and iranian occupation of that island predates the existence of the uae. brad hernlem 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77237">
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 or, for that matter, with the usa. around here, nobody reroutes freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth. they just get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through. the same is standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools and sports arenas being only two examples. anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how not? the wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty second decision for any city council i ever heard of. the cases aren't really comparable. a project like a freeway requires public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of restitution, and so on. the razing of the moghrabi district in east jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6 day war. the residents were given only two or three hours' notice to pack up and find accomodations elsewhere. they had no chance of public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything. it was get out or die in the rubble. =jim eggertj@ll.mit.edu (jim eggert) 
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word. i dont think you're correct here. there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians. the fact is that the croat govt. using their secret police (called the ustache, i think) were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs. satya prabhakar --javed. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77243">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word. satya prabhakar yeah right, sorta like the indian sub-contient, eh? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77244">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. where in the world did you get this? please read history books before you start talking something satya prabhakar senad arnautovic 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77245">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" parts of sen. biden's statement were quoted by the washington post today: let me put it plainly, mr. secretary. you are required to speak diplomatically; i am not. i cannot even begin to express to you my contempt for a european policy that is now asking us to participate in what amounts to a codification of the serbian victory. what you have encountered is a discouraging mosaic of indifference, timidity, self-delusion and hypocrisy. after they held our coats on kuwait and somalia, they are asking us to put in a few thousand troops on the ground in order to have the right to speak and in order to implement their new idea of 'safe havens' for the bosnians... let's not mince words. european policy is based on cultural and religious indifference, if not bigotry. and i think it's fair to say that this would be an entirely different situation if the muslims were doing what the serbs have done, if this was muslim aggression instead of serbian aggression. too bad the washington post did not include his next sentence, which pointed out that a consequence of such policy is a rising anger within the islamic world, the consequences of which we cannot begin to predict. later, biden told a reporter why he spoke out: i think someone has to respond to europe to make it clear this is a big deal... so they will understand. and it is a big deal. by refusing the fundamental human right of self-defense to bosnia-herzegovina, europe and the world have aided the serbian aggression. moreover, the arms embargo has forced a situation in which bosnian serbs have 10 times more heavy weaponry than bosnian croats and muslims combined. under such conditions, it is very easy for serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer" game, and to get the muslims and croats (who have strong common interests and who were allied against the serbian aggression) to start fighting each other, which leads to their mutual catastrophe. one final quote: u.s. secretary of state, warren christopher, has said in rome last week that "in practice, the embargo had the opposite effect intended. it made aggression certain." all diplomats who deluded themselves that they could negotiate peace while enforcing a 10:1 imbalance of power on the ground have contributed to this tragedy. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77246">
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 |> >> there are arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what |> >> insignificant positions they are assigned! and this is based solely |> >> on race not political belief or security as jewish members of the |> >> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow arabs. |> >first of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely |> >dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively. |> it is not a question of an individuals standing. when a party puts up an |> arab for a cabinet post and that arab is rejected but the position is given |> to a jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism. |> would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with labour |> coalitions? please cite specific examples where an arab party member was rejected while a jewish party member was accepted. if you examine these i am sure you will discover that the arab party member did not have the power base that his jewish counterpart had. the party structure in israel has changed quite a bit insofar as knesset member elections go. knesset members for most parties are now elected via primaries. the top standing members end up with cabinet posts. this is purely a political power issue. check the ranking of arab labor party members, as opposed to jewsih members and let me know which posts are held by jews that ranked lower in the party than their arab fellow electees. once again, if for arguments sake, all the arab israelis were to vote for labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of arab mks and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the power shift. |> not their party - them as *individuals*. even when they belong to nice |> peaceful zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. arabs are |> excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. it |> sure looks like racism to me. you are overlooking the fact that they wield political power as individuals based upon a wider collective power base. |> arabs are excluded from cabinet, even when they do the things you |> suggest, because they are arabs. unless of course you have a better |> reason? i am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist jew |> is less of a security risk than a leftist arab from the same party. |> look at the present cabinet. the reasoning i see at work is purely political. as far as security goes i think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing jews as well - e.g. sharon. shai guday | stealth bombers, os software engineer | thinking machines corp. | the winged ninja of the skies. cambridge, ma | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77247">
<answer instance="talk.politics.mideast77247" senseid="talk.politics.mideast"/>
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word. i dont think you're correct here. there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians. the fact is that the croat govt. using their secret police (called the ustache, i think) were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs. 13th ss divison, made primerily of bosnian muslim _volunteers_, did quite a job in the former yugoslavia during wwii. these folks are now in their 60's-70's. makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions of power in bosnia's goverment. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77248">
<answer instance="talk.politics.mideast77248" senseid="talk.politics.mideast"/>
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" biden spoke well. then there was john major, the architect of the betrayal of bosnian muslims to genocide. he basically has given yet another green light to hvo ustashe and mladic-chetnik serial killers, rapists, and plunderers to continue their genocide against bosnian muslims. but major met with mr. rushdie and said it was "unacceptable" that iran should have a death decree on him. while i disagree personally with fetwas against hack writers like rushdie (it only helps them sell more books), i find it interesting that mr. major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable, but a threat against one single popular british writer "unacceptable." michael sells, department of religion, haverford college haverford, pa 19041-1392 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77252">
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 my recollection of history/documentary books is slitely different. it is my understanding that croats were allies of germany during wwii, while serbs had sided with russia. as a result serbs did take a beating from croats (not bosnian moslems) while germany had the upper hand. even today, russians consider/call serbs as their slovac brothers. this is one of the issues involved in the u.n.'s lack of active intervention against serbs. as for the bosnian moslems, i have not heard of any alliance with germany or russia in recent history. therefore, i am curious if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict with same brutallity (as they are getting it today) in the past regards; ramin moshiri 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77254">
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 i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism. although i don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily i disagree. any discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the sole qualification for religious membership is racial. in the same way in which antisemite means anti-jewish and not anti-all- persons-of-who-are-semite, a "form of racism" means: a form of segregation against all those who are different based on the religious identification. joseph askew 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77255">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". it is easy for sen. biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo... the existing un policy may certaining be wrong, but the us wants to dictate policy, and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy... ...bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77256">
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 ... under such conditions, it is very easy for serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer" game, and to get the muslims and croats (who have strong common it is the serbs who were divided when croatia and bosnia-hercegovina attempted to secede from yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 serbs and their property out of yugoslavia. the croatian and muslim nations had the right to secede, not the republics. additionally, the secessions were to be negotiated, which would probably have required international mediation; instead the secessions were illegal, unilateral, and acts of war against yugoslavia and those who did not want to be ripped out of yugoslavia by the secessions. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77258">
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 ... i find it interesting that mr. major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable ... now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 muslims have been killed in b-h??? please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77259">
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 in a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa i.................. the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" what has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own sudan? the two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!! 
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 as the the peace talks resume in the middle east, i would humbly like to make some personal observations as to their prospects of success or failure and what's at stake. the present talks were suspended for over 4 months after the israeli expulsion of more the 400 palestinians for alleged links with the extremist islamic organisation hamas. the future of the talks was in the balance and their continuance was only guaranteed after some concessions by israel. now that all the parties are back to the negotiating table, the stakes as i see is are indeed high and the future stability of the region and perhaps the world is in the balance. the resumption of the talks was followed by a goodwill gesture by israel involving the return of 30 exiled palestinians from jordan to the occupied territories. these, however were not the palestinians expelled in december. the group constituted intellectuals and professionals who had been exiled after the '67 war for the political stand which was then regarded as dangerous. the choice of these arabs, who support the peace talks, illustrates the dilemma now faced by israel. its erstwhile arch enemies, ie plo and its backers now seem willing to talk peace while a new wave of islamic fundamantalism sweeping the middle east has seen the rise of an even more implacable foe under the banner of hamas. while israel continues to refuse to talk to the plo, labelling it a "terrorist organisation", the window of opportunity for peace is narrowing by the day. if the present talks are allowed to deadlock without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into account the interest of all involved, the chances of peace will indeed receed. the plo, by its decision to rejoin the talks, has staked its reputation on the success of the talks. the longer the talks continue, and they started 1 and half years ago, without any tangible progress, the further will the plo support in the territories erode. what is urgently needed is some dramatic gesture, worked out by israel with us approval that could spur the peace process and force the arabs and palestinians to reciprocate. vague promises as to interim government and return of territories is evidently too little too late to be any good. you might ask why must the israelis and not the arabs make the first substantive moves. the answer must lie in the tenous support at best that the talks receive among the mass of arab people and the fact the israel holds the most important cards, namely land. if a land for peace agreement can be reached, and real soon, the chances of a comprehensive peace treaty is good. the arabs, once and for all, recognise israel's right to exist inside secure borders, and isreal would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the palestinians to self deternimation and statehood. with peace guarantee by air tight treaties, the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social well being of its population, rather than prepare for the next war. ram vikash tiwary - the alternative to peace is not department of civil engineering war, it is annihilation. national university of singapore eng10511@nusunix.sg 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77265">
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 it is easy for sen. biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo... the existing un policy may certaining be wrong, but the us wants to dictate policy, and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy... ...bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us. look nobody asked those countries about their un forces to be on the ground. they can take their forces which are well bosnia and the us did...the un cannot impose blue berets on a country, and the us has voted for the current policy and mandate in the security council...and could have said no if it wanted to... it has a veto. clinton has not demanded the removal of the un forces...because he want to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to dictate policy but not be responsible for the policy he wants to dictate. if clinton asks for the blue berets to leave, then he bill clinton becomes responsible for what happens...him and sen. biden and their friends who want to fight the war from 10,000 ft...as long as the blue berets are there clinton can use europe as a scapegoat for american i fully admit that the current un policy approved by all the major powers including the us may be wrong or inappropriate...but these "back-seat drivers" in the us like clinton and biden are just a bunch of hypocrites looking for an gimmick to look like they are doing something to assuage their own consciences and those who are demanding action or leadership...and most european leaders are smart enough to know the difference between american hot air and american leadership. i think senator biden said it all what has to be said on this issue. europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world. like biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home. well, if biden is so outraged...why the hell doesn't he do something about it...where is his resolution in the us senate for a declaration of war or the commitment of us forces and troops. biden is just full of hot air. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77268">
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 actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of i don't have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you refer. is this an explicit statement by some document? or is it your interpretation of statements in such literature? or is this a figment of your imagination or a nazi armenian propaganda movie script? in any case, a fascinating piece of analysis. here are the facts: source: walker, christopher: "armenia: the survival of a nation." new york (st. martin's press), 1980. this generally pro-armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the nazi holocaust: a) dro (the butcher), the former dictator of x-soviet armenia and the architect of the genocide of 2.5 million muslims, the most respected of nazi armenian leaders, established an armenian provisional republic in berlin during world war ii; b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the nazis, declared themselves and all armenians to be members of the aryan 'super-race;' c) they published an anti-semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves with the nazis and their efforts to exterminate the jews; and, d) they mobilized an armenian army of up to 30,000 members which fought side by side with the wehrmacht. in fact, by 1942, nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro-german collaborators, that extended over two continents. thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen-ss in russia and western europe. armenians were involved in espionage and fifth-column activities for hitler in the balkans and arabian peninsula. they were promised an 'independent' state under german 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'armenian national council.' (a copy of this agreement can be found in the 'congressional record,' november 1, 1945; see document 1.) on this side of the atlantic, nazi armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. they had often expressed pro-nazi sentiments until america entered the war. in 1941, while the jews were being assembled for their doom in the nazi concentration camps, the nazi armenians in germany formed the first armenian battalion to fight alongside the nazis. in 1943, this battalion had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-soviet armenia and the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds between 1914-1920. an armenian national council was formed by the notorious dashnak party leaders in berlin, which was recognized by the nazis. encouraged by this, the armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the nazis and declared themselves as the members of the aryan super race and full participants to hitler's policy of extermination of the jews. this armenian-nazi conspiracy against the jews during wwii was an "encore" performance staged by the armenians during wwi, when they back-stabbed and exterminated 2.5 million muslims by colluding with the invading russian army. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77271">
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 actually, just after the first world war, many muslims were killed by serbs. under serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many croats were also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan. 6, 1929). please, don't be offended at this question: who are the "muslims" in the bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in islam. islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. but it is not , yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these bosnian muslims, who are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they speak? do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats? the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended! 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77273">
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 as if were any difference in how bosnian tribes treated each other. that said, one could draw a parallel between the russians in turkestan, and the serbs in bosnia. a typical nazi/racist armenian of 'asala/sdpa/arf'. can it be that criminal/nazi armenians of asala/sdpa/arf hate muslims for ideological reasons regardless of what they do? between 1914 and 1920, your criminal armenian grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. and today, they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history. source: the times, 2 march 1992 corpses litter hills in karabakh anatol lieven comes under fire while flying with azerbaijani forces to investigate the mass killings of refugees by armenian troops... as we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of nagorno-karabagh we saw the scattered corpses. apparently, the refugees had been shot down as they ran. an azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to journalists afterwards, showed dozens of corpses lying in various parts of the hills. the azerbaijanis claim that as many as 1000 have died in a mass killing of azerbaijanis fleeing from the town of khodjaly, seized by armenians last week. a further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death or missing... seven of us squatted in the cabin of an azerbaijani m24 attack helicopter as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. suddenly there was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. we swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire. we had been fired on from an armenian anti-aircraft post. we swung round again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a valley. the brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung round again and followed the contours of the ground. our cannon fired repeated blasts. later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting had landed successfully at nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed enclave of nagorno-karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. we had, in fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an armenian helicopter. i had seen the armenian helicopter intermittently through the window, its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on "our side". our group of western journalists had embarked on a search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission. our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two m24 soviet attack helicopters in the azerbaijani service, nicknamed flying crocodiles for their armour. our party was in the second crocodile. the civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. the attack helicopters were there to give covering fire if necessary. the operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the soviet armed forces because our pilot was a russian officer. an azerbaijani official told us that there were now five former soviet military helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for azerbaijan. "they have signed contracts to fly for us," he said. the helicopter we engaged in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our russian pilot, but fighting for the armenians. we had taken off just before 5pm on saturday from agdam airfield, an heated for the armenian-controlled mountains of karabakh, a sheer white wall in the distance. the civilian helicopter picked up four corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies on the hillsides. we then took off again in a hurry and speed back towards azerbaijani lines. azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed. back at the airfield in agdam, we took a look the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up. two old men a small girl were covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis. they had been shot. what did our russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave, and the war in nagorno-karabakh? he gave us cheerful grin, politely declined to answer ques tions, and marched off to his dinner. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77274">
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 culture was in russia proper, not in the ukraine. i think all these attempts to prove that russians are descendants of finns, ukrainians of tatars, bulgarians of bashkirs, and croats of iranians are based more on speculation than evidence. owieneramus. always has to stick his 'asala/sdpa/arf' made nose into every discussion with non-points and lies. well, still anxiously awaiting... source: cemal kutay, "ottoman empire," vol. ii., p. 188. "the atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time against the muslim population within the armenian republic have been confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by rawlinson, the british representative in erzurum, have confirmed that these atrocities are being committed by the armenians. the united states delegation of general harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came to take refuge with kazim karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable, their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation was a witness to the cruelties. many muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of karabekir's troops and the people. when it was hoped that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of february the cruelties inflicted on the muslim population of the region of shuraghel, akpazar, zarshad, and childir have increased. according to documented information, 28 muslim villages have been destroyed in the aforementioned region, more than 2,000 people have been slaughtered, many possessions and livestock have been seized, young muslim women have been taken to kars and gumru, thousands of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity and honour of the muslims continued. it was the responsibility of the armenian government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order to alleviate the tensions of muslim public opinion due to the atrocities committed by the armenians, that the possessions taken from the muslims be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives, and honour of the muslims be protected." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77276">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word. satya prabhakar muslims helping the nazis??? where on earth do you come up with such accuusation?? do you have proofs?? if not, you should publically apologize for such a statement. last time i heard, the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies. and if your statment were true, don't you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor (palestine) could do to them if they allowed it to be? the jewish lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it. and you dare say that you are taking no sides!! 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77278">
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 muslims helping the nazis??? where on earth do you come up with such accuusation?? do you have proofs?? if not, you should publically apologize for such a statement. what a dope! there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university. third-worldist and islamic brain-rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately. the history of the efforts of the mufti of jerusalem to serve the nazis in the south balkans and set up muslim ss divisions is well-documented. in general, nazism and the leader-principle resonated well among muslim peoples. khomeini's concept of the faqih is a recent example of such resonance. in fact, totalitarianism is etymologically a reasonable translation islam. to be fair, the mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of muslims to join the ss. but the rather small muslim ss unit did manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size. there were also muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt of muslim leaders to entice muslim people to serve the nazi cause actively. and the turkish government ignored practically all nazi overtures even though an alliance with the nazis against the soviet government would have made a great deal of tactical sense. last time i heard, the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies. and if your statment were true, don't you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor (palestine) could do to them if they allowed it to be? the jewish lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it. and you dare say that you are taking no sides!! yes, the typical primitive muslim psychopathological psychotic behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining about the jews. what a jerk. you should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country. your brain has no business in a civilized first world country. joachim carlo santos martillo ajami 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77279">
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 |> >muslims helping the nazis??? where on earth do you come up with such |> >accuusation?? do you have proofs?? if not, you should publically apologize |> >for such a statement. |> what a dope! there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here |> at a western university. third-worldist and islamic brain-rot has |> made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately. |> you should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country. your |> brain has no business in a civilized first world country. |> joachim carlo santos martillo ajami i have restrained from involvement in flame wars. these comments however make me long for the days when i was a flame warrior. i would hope that you would refrain from such idiotic slander. winslow (formerly of madison) p.s. i might have to drop the formerly and become the "old" winslow of madison. note: standard disclaimer above. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77280">
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 look nobody asked those countries about their un forces to be on the ground. they can take their forces which are incomponent and ineffective at the first place. and let whoever are willing to do the job what it takes. how anyone can defend this stinking un force on the ground who let the bosnnian pm yanked out from the un vehicle and being shot by the serbian military? how anyone can defend this un force who are just watching the shelling on cities and towns everyday? how anyone can defend and say those stinking un forces being effective when bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age groups? i think talking about the current un forces to bosnian muslims is just an insult to their casualties. i think senator biden said it all what has to be said on this issue. europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world. like biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home. because they get rid of their minorities long long time ago starting in 15th centuries. and they let adolph to take care of the rest in 20th century. but he was much more naughty than they expected because he dared to step many toes. so, why spoil the good thing now when serbs doing today what they were thinking the same yesterday. c. akgun infact on tuesday, the bosnian foreign minister asked formally the un to leave bosnia, just to show how much hypocracy is there in europe. these so called un is actually helping serbs carry out their etnic-clensing/murders/rapes. in zepa the un effectively helped the serbs carry out their heinous crimes by spreading conflicting reports that nothing was going on there. the cowards, or so called un peacemakers, only "attempted" to go out there for a fact finding mission -as if with all the ham-radio operators were lying and all the us war planes out there have no means of flying over there. this is the biggest farce in the history of the world and the same act has been repeated over and over again in different beseiged bosnian towns.... yes! i heard today that the president of bosnia- under pressure from the "civilized nations" has appealed to the un to stay there in bosnia. he should know better.. these hypocrates (sadly! it includes clinton administration too) all came out and said that the call for a referendum from bosnian serbian perliment (or a bunch of rapists/criminals) is a farce and yet they have to wait for the result of this referendum to act.... for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on both sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). wake up west!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth... disclaimer: these are only my opinions and they have nothing to do with my employers. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77281">
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". it is easy for sen. biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo... this is true. the existing un policy may certaining be wrong, but the us wants to dictate policy, and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy.. this has merit but is not entirely true. ...bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us. this last statement is not true. according to the cbo the united states has a force of about 88,000 us army personel in europe, i do not know if this includes a usmc division in norway. they have available a little more than 500 usaf attack aircraft, including various models of the f-111, a-10, f-19a/b, and a few f-4s. {there are about 1,000 more of these available, safely tucked away at home. at one time, the us maintained 1500 mbts {about half were m1a1} but some of these were relocated to the persian gulf. i know the us has at least one aircraft carrier battle group nearby and probably a marine assault brigade. does anyone know if there are any b-52/b-1bs in england? the point is, although there are no us ground troops in bosnia, it is not true that that all the american forces are safely camped outside of st. louis. i also understand that the administration is planning to position troops in macedonia. any reaction out there to this? question: day before yesterday i heard that serbia & montenegro had imposed additional trade sanctions against the bosnian serb rebels. this morning a npr reported at a bridge on the drina (sp?) verified that only a bread truck was allowed to pass through to bosnia. a serbian {who happened to be muslim}, stated that just a few months ago no vehicle even slowed for the boarder station. now everyone is stopped and searched, many are turned back. of course all i heard was a translators version, i do not speak serbo-croatian. if this is a effort on the part of serbia & montenegro {for whatever reason} to push the boserbs into accepting the v-o, is this not a good thing? jay morris 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77282">
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 cairo, egypt (upi) -- despite reports and evidence to the contrary a foreign ministry spokesman wednesday denied knowledge of any measures taken by egyptian authorities to restrict telephone contacts with states linked to muslim militants. any state that the cia does not control is called "state that is linked to terrorism/militants/fundamentalists etc.." meanwhile even egyptian "experts" who hate the islamic movement admit that what is happening in egypt is spontaneous and most of the time a reaction to what the government does. reports, such as one by israeli radio and the iranian official news agency, irna, said this week cairo has disconnected telephone lines with iran, sudan, pakistan and afhganistan. when asked if the telephone communication restrictions represented a new measure by egyptian authorities ibrahim agreed. can anybody see any contradiction between the above and the first does anybody know what the upi original article's title was? when it comes to egypt, all human rights, ethics, principles can be ignored by the western media. i wonder why? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77287">
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 this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and destruction. the holocaust was not a "fresh case." it was another chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on jews in europe. that didn't make it acceptable. and balkan history does not make the genocide against bosnian muslims acceptable. i guess that it was not acceptable because germany *also* chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril. i wonder whether us or other countries would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (i am no student of history and i am just asking questions.) if even for a moment you think that i am condoing ethnically motivated violence and killings, you are dead wrong. let me assure i am not. my only question is this: do powerful countries have a moral obligation to interefere in other countries if their own interests are not threatened. i cite an essay by charles krauthammer in the time (this week) that discusses this issue eloquently. for example, did us and other european countries abandon their moral compunctions when they chose not to send military troops to bombay when hindus, in a rare fit of impassioned rage, killed many muslims recently. i think not! under what conditions should us interfere in foregin countries, is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such. satya prabhakar 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77288">
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 muslims helping the nazis??? where on earth do you come up with such accuusation?? do you have proofs?? if not, you should publically apologize for such a statement. last time i heard, the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies. and if your statment were true, don't you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor (palestine) could do to them if they allowed it to be? the jewish lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it. and you dare say that you are taking no sides!! my reference is a 4 page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective. i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area; however, other posteers asserted that *some* muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs. in any case, past actions do not in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now. i sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay was wrong in making the assertion he made. maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective. satya prabhakar 
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 |> > this is not a fresh case of |> >>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga |> >>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... |> >every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and |> >destruction. the holocaust was not a "fresh case." it was another |> >chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on jews in europe. that didn't |> >make it acceptable. and balkan history does not make the genocide against |> >bosnian muslims acceptable. |> i guess that it was not acceptable because germany *also* chose |> a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of |> other countries in peril. i wonder whether us or other countries |> would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and |> hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (i am no student of history |> and i am just asking questions.) actually, the record of the allies activities, in the face of incontrovertible evidence as to what the nazis (may they rot in hell) were doing, clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done nothing. the railways to the camps were not bombed, despite the ease of doing so. the us, the "place of refuge" allowed in a bare pittance of jews from europe, primarily for public relations, so that the government could say it was "doing something". many ships with refugees were turned away from us shores; some found refuge in cuba or south america, many others sunk or had to return to europe (with predictable consequences). the hope today is that we have collectively learned a lesson, and are less complacent to ignore other countries' "internal affairs". the sad reality is that this does not seem to be the case. sean philip (shlomo) engelson yale department of computer science box 2158 yale station new haven, ct 06520 
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 ... under such conditions, it is very easy for serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer" game, and to get the muslims and croats (who have strong common it is the serbs who were divided when croatia and bosnia-hercegovina attempted to secede from yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 serbs and their property out of yugoslavia. it is the croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in serbian province of vojvodina. it is the muslims that were divided, 200,000 left in the region of sanjak that now belongs to serbia. if the serbs in croatia and bosnia-hercegovina want self-determination, the same right should be given to croats and muslims, and albanians and hungarians in serbia. why should serbia be exempted? 
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 the problem is that the blue berets in bosnia are dead meat if clinton starts bombing, but clinton doesn't have the courage to ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily responsible to the bosnian policy of the un and the allies. clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel free to use american military power for the sake of domestic us politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume the primary international leadership role in the un and among the allies, like bush, for all his faults, did in the gulf war... because with leadership comes responsibility, and clinton seems to want to retain the europeans as scapegoats. this is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have heard from the europeans. "let's let the serbs massacre, rape, and ethnically clean 100,000 bosnians because we don't want our pretty blue berets there to get scratched". well, i say, get them the hell out of there if you're worried for them, but don't deny bosnians their basic right to self defense! lift the embargo against bosnia, and let them defend themselves. what makes the un troops more valuable than the bosnian people? they are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive, when if anything, it should be the other way around. idiots like owen expect bosnians to swallow a forced plan, and just hope this problem will go away. well they're wrong. if they had got their butts in gear (that is, if bosnia had oil) a year ago, much of this could be prevented. now, however, the results of this tragedy will last for generations. that's like forcing the jews to make peace with hitler. yeah right. this, as senator biden said, reeks of bigotry, and makes me and any decent human being for that matter, quite sick. it should be the europeans, not the americans, who take the inititiative and ask the other for support. this is their backyard, not the americans. today it's bosnia, tomorrow it will be kosovo and macedonia, greece, and then turkey, and the damn thing will spread. not to mention european muslims who weren't even practicing before will rally to fundamentalism. good luck handling that, your majesty! owen was upset at the question which compared him to chamberlain, who hoped to appease hitler. he said that chamberlain had been in munich 2 years before any war, i have been here during a blazing war for the last 18 months. well, that makes him even worse, because chamberlain could have at least argued i'm giving germany the benefit of the doubt, whereas owen can't even do that. what the west is doing is aiding the serbs by tying the bosnians' hands, and making the stupid excuse of their powerless troops on the ground, who can't even protect the bosnian foreign minister in their own armored vehicle, and watch the killers just walk away! what kind of peace is this? what kind of civilization is this? clinton wants to leave the europeans in charge and responsible, but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the american public may be easily fooled...european leaders aren't. european leaders are pathetic, and are helping a genocide which even they will not be able to forget. yeah, they'll go to africa and fight for some damn dictator in their former colony, they'll go to kuwait and fight for oil, but in bosnia not only they won't fight aggression, they'll even tie the hands of the victim. now you tell me who is fooling whom. mash javad 
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 i want to subscribe, i am located in israel and my name is david gotlieb 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77295">
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 please, don't be offended at this question: who are the "muslims" in the bosnian context? bosnian muslims are citizens od bosnia-herzegovina who identify themselves with bosnian muslim cultural and religious tradition. i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in islam. islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. but it is not , yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these bosnian muslims, who are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they speak? do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats? in bosnia, "muslim" is not merely a religious category, but an ethnic one as well. actually, here are the two contradictory arguments made by people on this subject: (1) there is only serbian and croatian nationality, and bosnian muslims are simply croats and serbs of islamic faith. (2) bosnian muslims are a separate nationality since they do not feel themselves to be croats nor serbs. in 1968, argument (2) was accepted by former yugoslavia as valid, and (1) was soundly rejected. the reasons are pragmatic: even if bosnian muslims are croats and serbs who converted to islam under turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality. in fact, although bosnian muslims have felt drawn to croatian or serbian national allegiance, most of them feel they have a separate cultural and historic identity. so, arguments like "yes, but your ancestors were croats or serbs" carry very little weight. regardless of what their ancestors might have been, as long as bosnian muslims feel that they are a separate national group, that ends the debate. what outsiders say is simply not relevant. the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended! in the case of former yugoslavia, the date is 1971, when "muslim nationality" appeared as a census category for the first time. this was the result of a sequence of decisions over the past decade, from recognizing "bosniaks" as an ethnic group (1961) to february 1968 resolution (in b-h) declaring that muslims are a separate nation, to formal endorsement of this in january 1969, and eventually to the 1971 inclusion of "muslim nationality" choice in census forms. for comparison, in 1948 census there were three national categories available to muslims in bosnia-herzegovina: serb-muslims: 71,991 croat-muslims: 25,295 muslims, ethnically undeclared: 788,403 this clearly demonstrates that muslims feel themselves to be their own nationality. only a tiny minority felt able to choose serb or croat nationality. census results show that bosnian muslims have consistently opted for a third category: in 1948 they chose "undeclared", in 1953 they chose "yugoslavs", in 1961 both "yugoslavs" and "bosniak ethnic group", and in 1971, 1981 and 1991 they chose "muslim nationality". perhaps the term "bosnian muslim nationality" is too confusing for the rest of the world. but, in the present context, we are talking about muslims as nationality; not as a religous group within some separate national identity. the reasons are mostly historical and cultural. religion plays a smaller role, as a part of culture in general, because the area is simply not known for religious fanaticism. political fanaticism, yes; religious fanaticism, no. group security and survival dominate people's thinking; not fine points of theology. in fact, bosnia-herzegovina is as well known for religious tolerance in peacetime as it is known for terrible carnage in wartime. 
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 net citizens! this is a desperate try to save our last course in university. we are writing a study about the net, how it all started, about the people living in it, however trying to explain the basics of how it all works. that includes you, reader of this message. we would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following questions; 1. for how many years have you known that internet existed? 2. how often do you use the net? (occasions per month) 3. whatfor? (hobby, in your profession, socialy...) 4. how do you access the net? (university, profession, friends, private...) 5. has the net taken over roles that other media played before? (telephone, newspapers, tv, girlfriend...) 6. what newsgroups/type of information do you take part of? 7. male or female? 8. age? if you have the time; 9. what's your future visions about the net? limits and/or possibilities. 10.how do you think/hope law and censorship will change over time ahead? we also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this. this request has been spread to 60 newsgroups, chosen at random, but, you know how it is, term end is closing up, panic spreads. email address: fm91hn@hik.se or fm91pb@hik.se sincere respect and may the force be with you all! peter & henrik 
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 for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on both sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). wake up west!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth... it is also so easy to blame the west for their indiffernce to real bosnian suffering. how about the moslem world, about 1 billion? how about them ha? what they are doing to stop this massacre? why the oil rich arab states make the bosnian crises a national interest of the west, especially for europeans? we all know they can do it over night, don't we? blaming west and asking why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of muslims too. i think who is sleeping is not the west. they are wide awake. they are trying to save the face. c. akgun 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77298">
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 thus, while a war rages between serbs and croats as a continuation of wwii, and older agenda, the annihilation of islam and muslims from bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the serbo-croat war. the annihilation of islam ("turks") is an older serbian agenda. but i strongly dispute your notion that croats had a similar older agenda, in fact, for the past century or two, croats and muslims have seen themselves as having a lot in common, and they generally had friendly relations. your suggestion that croat-muslim relationship is anything like serb-muslim relationship is completely wrong. to say that croats and muslims have a lot in common does not imply they are not separate peoples. the events of the past two years clearly show muslim determination to remain separate: in their alliance with croats, they maintained this separation. croats would have accepted a much closer relationship, i think. this century plus of building bridges between these two friendly peoples is now at risk, because of the inexorable logic of war. since bosnian serbs (32% of population) have 10 times more heavy weapons than bosnian muslims (44%) and croats (17%) combined, they have squeezed muslims and croats into only 30% of the territory. muslims lost more territory than croats (who built defenses early on). under these conditions, any alliance is bound to fall apart since it is easier to recover lost land from croats than from serbs. the only thing keeping this in check was the hope of reversal of fortunes through foreign military intervention and lifting of the arms embargo. since warren christopher had no luck persuading the europeans to go along with this, this hope was dashed. having no prospect of outside help, the former allies turned on each other, like two starved animals in a tight cage. this inexorable logic, of course, got plenty of help from serbian intelligence operatives, who were doing everything to build mistrust between croats and muslims for over a year. a timely intervention to stop serbian aggression would have prevented this. sadly, nothing was done to create a balance of power on the ground. as long as the serbs enjoy 10:1 advantage, they can break any alliance, even among friends. this is tragic, but hardly new: "divide et impera" was used by ancient romans with success. in my view, bosnian muslims and croats managed to resist this divisive strategy reasonably well until may 9, 1993, when the hope of reversal of fortunes was lost. i have a question for the distinguished diplomats: do they believe balkan peoples are experimental cannon fodder? i'd like to know what did they expect when they decided to enforce the arms embargo which solidified serbian 10:1 advantage in heavy weapons; how did they expect to prevent fragmentation of the muslim and croat defense forces; and how on earth do they hope to restore peace without justice? the implications of this immoral approach i cannot begin to predict, but i am filled with foreboding... 
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 so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings, and condemn all his supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents, muslim or not, in bosnoia-herzegovina? hatred and bigotry remain just that, no matter who practices them. yaakov k. (internet: yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77302">
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 it is the croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in serbian province of vojvodina. it is the muslims that were divided, 200,000 left in the region of sanjak that now belongs to serbia. if croats are now divided, it is because croatia seceded from yugoslavia. croats in croatia, b-h, and serbia were in *one* country--yugoslavia-- until they divided themselves. if muslims are now divided, it is because b-h seceded from yugoslavia. muslims in croatia, b-h, and serbia were in *one* country--yugoslavia-- until they divided themselves. that croats and muslims in yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does *not* give them the right to divide serbs in yugoslavia. croatia and b-h shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among various unstable countries. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77304">
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 actually, just after the first world war, many muslims were killed by serbs. under serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many croats were also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan. 6, 1929). please, don't be offended at this question: who are the "muslims" in the bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in islam. islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. but it is not , yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these bosnian muslims, who are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they speak? do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats? the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended! mr. oguocha, "muslims" in the bosnian context are in fact "turks"... in fact, correct me if i am wrong, serbs are attacking bosnians with their battle cries "death to the turks!". is this so shocking? years of communism apparently suppressed their hatred and anger towards the turks. but such hatred is obviously one that dies hard. serbs must understand, turks are no longer the good old barbarians world has come to know by propaganda after propaganda. serbs must further understand that barbarism does not work. serbs must even further understand that barbarism would one day have to face counter-barbarism. so, i urge those people [serbs] to stop killing bosnian women and children. and they must never forget that turks in the motherland are watching...patiently. erol esen esen@mozart.cs.colostate.edu 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77306">
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 "muslim" in ex-yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion. in fact, not all muslims in b-h are followers of islam. therefore, there do (did?) exist in ex-yugoslavia "christian muslims." yeah! that's it! :) you've really outdone yourself this time nick... don't forget the "davidian muslims"... :) islam is not a race. it's a religion. you can be white, black, fijian or alaskan. i guess you didn't absorb too much of the malcolm x interest circulating. you see, the whole point of islam is that it stresses equality amongst all peoples. now, i do realize this is difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in serbian ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult. the war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war. that's right, it's a disneyland war -- all a setup for the tv cameras. there are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that the whole apollo story was done in tv studios... it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens. the croat, muslim, and serb political leaders *all* chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. terms of secession? you are, of course, joking, right nick? nobody *chose* to fight. bosnia and croatia were *internationally* recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well-documented genocide. that makes them an outside aggressor. it's a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing. there is no question of civil war... -- shakil 
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 in a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa i.................. the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" what has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own sudan? the two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!! i too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting, not one person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non-muslims by the sudanese government. could it be that they are africans and so who cares? i suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about bosnia and go on to discuss something even more meaningless. the report below shows that the sudanese are acting in the finest traditions of islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the net (who shall remain nameless). government troops 'steal women, children' washington - government troops in sudan are involved in massacres, kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into libya, according to a state department document declassified wednesday. the report compiled by the u.s. embassy in khartoum said government forces, particularly arab militias organized as the popular defense forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern sudan. "some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped north where they perform forces labor on kordofan (central sudan) farms or are exproted, notably to libya," it said. 
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 may 13, 1993 _five russian soldiers sentenced to death in azerbaijan_ moscow (upi) -- five soldiers who served in russia's 7th army stationed in armenia were sentenced to death in the azerbaijani capital baku thursday for allegedly "carrying out diversions and killing 30 azeri soldiers." a statement released by the news service of azeri president abulfaz elchibey said "the sentence was final and was not subject to protest or appeal," the russian state news agency itar-tass reported. but the russian foreign ministry issued an appeal for the men to be handed over to the authorities in moscow for punishment. "this would accord with modern standards of humanity towards those who have committed crimes," the statement reads. the five men, together with another soldier who received a 15-year prison sentence, were captured in september 1992 by azeri police in the kelbadzhar district of azerbaijan, between nagorno-karabakh and armenia. the supreme court in baku said the men had gone through special training in a company of the russian 7th army in the armenian capital yerevan, after which they were sent across the armenian-azeri border into nagorno-karabakh to carry out diversions against azeri troops. however, the russian foreign ministry statement claimed they had deserted the russian army and were fighting as mercenaries with armenian armed forces in the battle zone round karabakh. nagorno-karabakh is an armenian-populated enclave within azerbaijan which for five years has been fighting for independence from baku in a war that has left many thousands dead and uprooted hundreds of thousands from their homes. both yerevan and baku have always claimed that russian servicemen stationed in these caucasian republics, who were left behind after the break-up of the soviet union, are fighting as mercenaries in the karabakh war. the statement from moscow said the russian side repeatedly appealed to the azerbaijani government to show humanity and leniency in their treatment of the six men, and to hand them over to the russian authorities. it said that president boris yeltsin himself sent a letter with this request to his azeri counterpart elchibey. itar-tass said that the soldiers' defense attorneys had lodged an appeal for clemency. david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "armenia has not learned a lesson in s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | anatolia and has forgotten the p.o. box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93 cambridge, ma 02238 | -- late turkish president turgut ozal 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77310">
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 t.s.reddy writes the report below shows that the sudanese are acting in the finest traditions of islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the net (who shall remain nameless). washington - government troops in sudan are involved in massacres, kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into libya, according to a state department document declassified wednesday. the report compiled by the u.s. embassy in khartoum said government forces, particularly arab militias organized as the popular defense forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern sudan. "some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped north where they perform forces labor on kordofan (central sudan) farms or are exproted, notably to libya," it said. while the people here may be claim to be muslim, the actions reported here, if they actually happened, are 180 degrees opposite from what islam stands for, and i, for one, condemn them. / * \ nizam arain \ what makes the universe || || (217) 384-4671 / so hard to comprehend | \___/ | internet: narain@uiuc.edu \ is that there is nothing \_____/ nextmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu / to compare it with. 
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 why is it, then, that when the british, iranians and uae refer to occupied territory, they mean territory in dispute in israel but not in their own affairs? i suppose for the same reason jews call the occupied territory, judea and sumaria. it's called propaganda and if you repeat lies often enough, people start to believe it. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77313">
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 my reference is a 4 page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective. i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area; however, other posteers asserted that *some* muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs. in any case, past actions do not and the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from an unnamed source? you may indeed be confusing *some* muslims with nazi armenians. altogether 30,000 nazi armenians served in various units in the german wehrmacht, according to ara j. berkian. 14,000 in predominantly armenian army units, 6,000 in german army units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the waffen-ss.[1] a number of these nazi armenians were volunteers from france, greece, rumania and bulgaria who had chosen to commit themselves to the german war effort. derounian says that "dashnag armenians from france bore the mark 'legion armenienne.'"[2] that nazi armenians like dro 'the butcher' and nezhdeh sided with the germans probably had an impact on the decision of armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service. [1] enno meyer, a. j. berkian, 'zwischen rhein und arax, 900 jahre deutsch-armenische beziehungen,' (heinz holzberg verlag-oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119. [2] john roy carlson (arthur derounian), in 'the armenian displaced persons,' ibid., p. 19. in fall 1942, the armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. in the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. these battalions together with other indigenous caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. also attached to id 162 were the field battalions ii/9, i/125 and i/198 which were formed between may 1942 and may 1943. altogether twelve armenian battalions served the nazi army, if battalion ii/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] most battalions were commanded by nazi armenian officers. armenians wore german uniforms with an armband in the dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription 'armenien.' [1] joachim hoffmann, 'dies ostlegionen 1941-1943, turkotataren, kaukasier und wolgafinned im deutschen heer,' (verlag rombach freiburg 1976), p. 172. while having collaborated with the nazis against stalin during the second world war, nazi armenians changed their policy after hitler's defeat. they now backed stalin's claims on eastern turkish provinces, hoping that these would be annexed to soviet armenia and their muslim population would be exterminated. stalin played on armenian national sentiments to enlist the support of armenians in the ussr and america for his imperial ambitions.[1] stalin's ultimatum to the turkish government led truman to formulate his famous doctrine. [1] walter kolarz, 'religion in the soviet union,' (london, macmillan & co ltd; new york, st martin's press 1961), pp. 160-164. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 5 apr 93 moscow (upi) -- ``it's horrible. people are trying to get their wives and children out, men are leaving their defense positions, it's total anarchy,'' said mekhman aliyev, a spokesman for the azerbaijani president. aliyev said 210 people -- three-quarters of them civilians, the rest government soldiers -- had been killed and 200 wounded in the assault by armenian fighters. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 greeks do not like turks not because of what they did to us but because of what they plan to do to us. let me improve this one for you, then. for nearly one thousand years, the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation. the persecutions culminated in 1914: the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects. 2.5 million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. after one thousand years, turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds. the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye. today, x-soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x-soviet armenia. today, x-soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against x-soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds. turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland. ...on this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice of the restitution of turkish and kurdish rights and... - we demand that the x-soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide, render reparations to the muslim people, and return the land to its rightful owners. the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed. - we believe the time has come to demand from the the united states that it formally recognizes the turkish and kurdish genocide, adopts the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to armenian pressures to the contrary. - as taxpayers of the united states, we express our vehement protest to the present u.s. government policy of continued coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-soviet - our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-soviet armenia's. source: "from sardarapat to sevres and lausanne" by avetis aharonian. the armenian review, vol. 16, no. 3-63, autumn, sep. 1963, pp. 47-57. p. 52 (second paragraph). "your three chiefs, dro, hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour, surmali, etchmiadzin, and zangibasar. this is intolerable. look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table - look at this, here in december are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined tartar villages which my representative wardrop has sent me. the official tartar communique speaks of the destruction of 300 villages." p. 54 (fifth paragraph). "yes, of course. i repeat, until this massacre of the tartars is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership i hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition." "...it is the armed bands led by dro, hamazasp and kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many tartar villages in the regions of surmali, etchmiadzin, zangezour, and zangibasar. there are official charges of massacres." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 please cite specific examples where an arab party member was rejected while a jewish party member was accepted. if you look at the bottom of this article you will see that i have very kindly dug up one of yigal arens previous postings (entirely without his permission, i hope he doesn't mind) containing translations from ha'arezt detailing just such a case. perhaps you think that ha'arezt lies? would you like to provide me with an assurance that this practise *never* occurs? if you examine these i am sure you will discover that the arab party member did not have the power base that his jewish counterpart had. right, arabs have been voting in israel for how long? and in all that time not one arab ever gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow party members to put in a ministry? this is about as likely as sprouting wings and flying to rio. what basis do you have for explaining this odd failure? you seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you know, why are you sure? once again, if for arguments sake, all the arab israelis were to vote for labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of arab mks and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the power shift. exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the labour party has never put an arab into a cabinet post and insists its coalition members do the same? why and on what basis are you reassuring me in the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise? you are overlooking the fact that they wield political power as individuals based upon a wider collective power base. hey what?? as i said even when their party puts them up they get knocked back. it surely couldn't be because they are arabs is it? the reasoning i see at work is purely political. as far as security goes i think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing jews as well - e.g. sharon. well yes, but security is the reason most often given by people who want to make excuses. i merely thought it would crop up and so pre-empted it. start of article (all commets in [*....*] are mine not dr. arens) [comments in square brackets are mine - yigal] from "the other front", july 29, 1992. translation of ha'aretz article. racism in the knesset coalition requirements on one hand, and the presence of progressive mks from _meretz_ in the coalition on the other, have compelled rabin and his friends to change, to some extent, their attitude towards the arab public and their representatives in the knesset. although he did refuse to view them as partners, taking part in the coalition and joining the government, he did agree to meet with them and to give them a document of intentions which included a commitment to "work towards a decrease in the discrimination between jewish and arab citizens". [decrease what?!?! but posters have told us time and again that such discrimination does not exist *at* *all*! is rabin, too, a closet self-hater??? - yigal]. however, racism has not disappeared. when the knesset sat to consider who would staff its various committees, a request was made to put an mk from hadash [the communist party, one of the "arab" parties - yigal] on the state comptroller's committee. and oh, did that ever stir up a storm -- including in the ranks of labor -- since many knesset members find it unthinkable that an arab mk sit on one of the important house committees. "security secrets" are liable to fall into their hands... this attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism, being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds that there are knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body which represents the people of israel. we are not speaking here of political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but of racial discrimination. the proof: one of the compromises proposed was that mk mahamid [an arab - yigal] should be replaced by tamar gojanski [a jew - yigal] from the same party. it was not the member's party which was considered unfit, but his race... [* here is a documented case in a respected israeli newspaper. *] it is worth noting that for the first time since the state's founding, a public debate has arisen on this subject, as witness the following article: a test of self-confidence by gid'on levi, ha'aretz, july 26, 1992 revelations of discrimination against arabs have become such an integral part of our daily routine that there is not much effort made to deal with them. [do you hear that, -----? please contact this levi fellow and explain to him how little he knows about israel. please! - yigal]. except that sometimes the demon bursts out from behind the government's window dressing, and then the phenomenon is seven times more serious. last week provided two more such examples: the israeli knesset is finding it very difficult to allow arab representation on its more important committees; and israel television is finding it no less difficult to give a platform to arabs from the territories. seemingly two entirely different matters, but in fact they are one and the same. the 13th knesset proved last week that, even though one third of its members are new faces, it has not renewed its own face at all, at least on one issue. parliamentary traditions may be modernized and parliamentary traditions may become obsolete, and only one tradition endures forever: no arab shall set foot in the more important committees of the house. there has never been and never will be an arab mk on the external affairs and defense committee or on the finance committee. worlds have been overturned over the question of whether or not "to give" arabs, for the first time, a place on the state comptroller's the arguments are old and well-known: in all three of the above committees innumerable secrets are revealed -- and woe unto us if an arab should hear them. one must not make light of such arguments, but their significance should also not be exaggerated. every arab mk is not spending all his time waiting for the opportune moment to hand over information from the knesset committee room to black panther headquarters in jenin; and not all the aforementioned committees are continually occupied in the discussion of top-secret matters, which could safely be revealed, for example, to mks supportive of the jewish underground, but not to an arab mk from the likud, labor, or even from the arabs themselves would probably forego membership in the subcommittee on secret service matters, but what would happen, one may ask, if mk nawaf masalha were to hear, god forbid, a review of the foreign minister in an open meeting of the foreign affairs and defense committee, or even a review of the army chief of staff which, in any case, are regularly leaked to the next edition of the news. and what would happen if mk hashem mahamid were to report on what he had seen with his own eyes at al-najah? their non-participation [in important committees] and that of their colleagues, creates an intolerable situation, where arab members of the elected house have only semi-positions. they are good enough for addressing plenary sessions, and for voting for or against the government and participating in the deliberations of the immigration and absorption committee. but they must not, for example, participate in the process of formulating the state budget in the finance committee or in the allocation of resources to local authorities. in any case, they have little part in that. labor's dependence on the support of the arab parties has brought about some improvement: mk hashem mahamid, will, it seems, participate in the state comptroller's committee. earlier, there had been a ridiculous attempt made to dictate to hadash who their representative should be, and thus to prevent the arab from entering this dubious holy-of-holies, but it soon became clear that there was no legal or constitutional backing for such a step. but not to worry: even now the jewish mind is contriving devices. the new committee chair, roni milo, has already announced that he will set up subcommittees aplenty for his committee. thus he will decide where it is permissible for mahamid to participate and where not. a solution such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from the knesset. end article do you accept that as documentation? joseph askew joseph askew, gauche and proud in the autumn stillness, see the pleiades, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. disclaimer? sue, see if i care north of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, actually, i rather like brenda beyond the pale, the river murmurs on. 
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 it seems that, to keep the peace talks going, israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews. if the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success, the arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return for giving up only intangibles. if they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules, which seems to be one of their favorite games, the israelis are not likely to be very confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth the parchment they're written on. it takes two to negotiate a peace. it's time for the arabs to start doing their share. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org 
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 it seems that, to keep the peace talks going, israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews. you *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only* going to generate flames, not discussion. try adding some substance to the issue of "gestures" you mentioned. if the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success, the arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return for giving up only intangibles. what is it you feel that israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? what would you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the arabs/palestinians in the way of "gesture"? if they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules, which seems to be one of their favorite games, the israelis are not likely to be very confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth the parchment they're written on. what are the "rules" that have been bent by arab actions? it would seem that the israeli deportations were seen by the other side as an example of "changing the rules". it takes two to negotiate a peace. it's time for the arabs to start doing their share. alan h. stein astein@israel.nysernet.org tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 the cases aren't really comparable. a project like a freeway requires public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of restitution, and so on. the razing of the moghrabi district in east jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6 day war. the residents were given only two or three hours' notice to pack up and find accomodations elsewhere. they had no chance of public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything. it was get out or die in the rubble. in today's jerusalem post magazine there is a feature story about the ongoing restoration of synagogues in the jewish quarter. the author, leah abramowitz, writes that there were fifty-seven synagogues in the quarter in 1948, all of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as donkey stables. the building shells, that is. i still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition of the buildings in front of the kotel continues to evoke more outrage than this. everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the jews. bill coleman clmn@midway.uchicago.edu 
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 for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on both sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). wake up west!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth... c. akgun writes: it is also so easy to blame the west for their indiffernce to real bosnian suffering. how about the moslem world, about 1 billion? how about them ha? what they are doing to stop this massacre? why the oil rich arab states make the bosnian crises a national interest of the west, especially for europeans? we all know they can do it over night, don't we? blaming west and asking why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of muslims too. i think who is sleeping is not the west. they are wide awake. they are trying to save the face. please, read my post carefully, i am saying that lift the arms emargo and let the muslims defend themselves. the point is these europians "civilized countries" neither want to get intervene militarily themselves and nor they like to see the muslims of the world to help the oppressed. (remember what happened almost one year ago when the so called un discovered some riffles in an iranian jet in bosnia!). the west is not indifferent in this matter they are siding with serbs by keeping this embargo on only muslim side (okay on-paper on both sides). disclamer: these are my opinions only and they have nothing to do with my employer.newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.afganistan,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.african,soc.cultur summary: expires: sender: followup-to: distribution: organization: stratus computer, inc. 
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 "muslim" in ex-yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion. in fact, not all muslims in b-h are followers of islam. therefore, there do (did?) exist in ex-yugoslavia "christian muslims." yeah! that's it! :) you've really outdone yourself this time nick... don't forget the "davidian muslims"... :) islam is not a race. it's a religion. you can be white, black, fijian or alaskan. this does not change the *fact* that "muslim" is a legal and political term defined constitutionally in former yugoslavia, and therefore has meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of any religious considerations. it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens. the croat, muslim, and serb political leaders *all* chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. terms of secession? you are, of course, joking, right nick? nobody *chose* to fight. bosnia and croatia were *internationally* recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well-documented genocide. that makes them an outside aggressor. it's a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing. there is no question of civil war... you only wish it were so. more than 2,000,000 residents of croatia and b-h have *not* accepted the terms of secession which tudjman and izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon them. croats and muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former yugoslav republics of croatia and b-h. oh, btw, *yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was destroyed by tudjman, izetbegovic, milosevic, and the international community led by germany. if yugoslavia's borders could be changed against its will, then certainly croatia's borders and b-h's borders can be changed as well. as i have stated many times: the civil war in ex-yugoslavia will end when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for croatia and b-h are finally agreed upon. serbs, croats, and muslims will *all* have to make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement. 
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 i guess that it was not acceptable because germany *also* chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril. i wonder whether us or other countries would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (i am no student of history and i am just asking questions.) i don't think they would have. after all the u.s. was one of the countries that turned away jewish refugees when there was still time to get them out. (considered and rejected at the cabinet level then..) under what conditions should us interfere in foregin countries, is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such. as i understand it, international law provides the right of any country to intervene to prevent genocide. i think once the world court has ruled that genocide is being committed... if a human rights czar is appointed at the u.n., we could have international monitors recording events and responses of local officials and develop an objective basis. this could be backed by adjudication at the international court of justice and enforcement through a rapid deployment force under the u.n. secretary general's command. i would like to see the u.n. directly impose icj rulings whenever feasible (without the possibility of vetos at the un security council.. much as the president can't veto a u.s. supreme court ruling). the u.s. is now supporting the effort to appoint the hr czar -- the third world opposition is led by three countries, china, iran and pakistan (what company is pakistan keeping!). the u.s. is also reconsidering its opposition to the u.n. force initially envisaged in the charter (although under the control of the security council). the un sc is quite a flawed body. rogue governments like the prc have even threatened their veto in the last few months to block the move to place u.n. troops in bosnia under chapter 7 instead of 11 (if i have the numbers straight) where they could have moved from being a monitoring to an enforcement force without requiring further sc action. (the prc even continues to threaten using its veto on u.n. action despite the icj ruling. the current set-up requires the sc to enforce icj rulings..). gul agha 
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 |> >why is it, then, that when the british, iranians and uae refer to |> >occupied territory, they mean territory in dispute in israel but not |> >in their own affairs? |> i suppose for the same reason jews call the occupied territory, judea and |> sumaria. it's called propaganda actually judea and samaria are proper geographical names, just like asia minor or lake michigan. judea and samaria are even used in an atlas published in (what used to be) ussr circa 1970 that i have at home. the government of the ussr was of course quite hostile towards israel and would hardly engage in a pro-israel propaganda. i would be willing to mail a photocopy of the relevant page to mr. schmidling with relevant words underlined to simplify his search, if he promises to report to the net afterwards. |> and if you repeat lies often enough, |> people start to believe it. mr. schmidling is to be congtatualted for being living exception to this general rule. for although he is almost without peer in both the number of lies posted and in the number of times he repeats them --- he hasn't found many people who believe his lies (yet ?). |> js g. feygin 
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 joachim martillo writes what a dope! there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university. third-worldist and islamic brain-rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately. yes, the typical primitive muslim psychopathological psychotic behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining about the jews. what a jerk. you should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country. your brain has no business in a civilized first world country. joachim carlo santos martillo ajami if you were to substitute the word "jew"/"jewish" in this posting where you see the word "muslim"/"islamic", switch joachim and mohammed's names around, and then repost this, you would get a flood of messages attacking the author as an anti-semite. and rightly so. the author of this crap is a racist, pure and simple. he obviously has no qualms about being open with it, either, unlike some other arab- and mulsim-bashers on the net. now, i for one, am not going to look at joachim's posting and infer from it that all jews think this way. sure, there might be some, but this view is not a part of judaism, and it is stupid to believe that all jews' minds are this twisted. however, some muslims might look at joachim's flame as a reaffirmation of their worst fears about jews: that they all hate arabs and are racists. for this reason, i am alarmed that not more jews on the net have spoken out against what joachim has said. they have the chance to possibly change the anti-semitic views of some people on the net, to show them that all jews do *not* hate all arabs and muslims, just like all muslims do *not* hate all jews. yet they are missing that chance. remember, to many people, silence implies consent. / * \ nizam arain \ what makes the universe || || (217) 384-4671 / so hard to comprehend | \___/ | internet: narain@uiuc.edu \ is that there is nothing \_____/ nextmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu / to compare it with. 
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 "muslim" in ex-yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion. in fact, not all muslims in b-h are followers of islam. therefore, there do (did?) exist in ex-yugoslavia "christian muslims." yeah! that's it! :) you've really outdone yourself this time nick... don't forget the "davidian muslims"... :) islam is not a race. it's a religion. you can be white, black, fijian or alaskan. this does not change the *fact* that "muslim" is a legal and political term defined constitutionally in former yugoslavia, and therefore has meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of any religious considerations. not to muslims :) it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens. the croat, muslim, and serb political leaders *all* chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. that could be arguable.. (for bandwith and flames sake, i wont say more) terms of secession? you are, of course, joking, right nick? nobody *chose* to fight. bosnia and croatia were *internationally* recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well-documented genocide. that makes them an outside aggressor. it's a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing. there is no question of civil war... you only wish it were so. it is a civil war, but the serbian generals who allow rape are not fighting fair. yah i know .. war is hell .. those serbian generals are propretuating both.. more than 2,000,000 residents of croatia and b-h have *not* accepted the terms of secession which tudjman and izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon them. croats and muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former yugoslav republics of croatia and b-h. lines and bordres .. money .. power .. fear .. oh, btw, *yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was destroyed by tudjman, izetbegovic, milosevic, and the international community led by germany. if yugoslavia's borders could be changed against its will, then certainly croatia's borders and b-h's borders can be changed as well. let's change canadian bordres while we are at it :) i see this as civvil war.. (sp borders) as i have stated many times: the civil war in ex-yugoslavia will end when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for croatia and b-h are finally agreed upon. serbs, croats, and muslims will *all* have to make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement. possibly.. i do agree that it is a civil war, which makes the donation of humanitarian aid even more complex... i mean serbs are bleeding too and i heardthat a few croats had raped serbian women.. (unconfurmable at this point) mohammad r. khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu after july '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu if responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account. 
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 so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings, and condemn all his supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents, muslim or not, in bosnoia-herzegovina? hatred and bigotry remain just that, no matter who practices them. indeed yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by kahane and kahanists, right? or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed to hate? i know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit. keep it up. steel (who's never pissed off). /_______/_/__________/_/_/ _< /____/ /___ / .. /____/ 
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 it has be reported that the national baseball league has been spotted in the west bank; they were recruiting pitchers. /_______/_/__________/_/_/ _< /____/ /___ / .. /____/ 
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 it seems that, to keep the peace talks going, israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews. you *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only* going to generate flames, not discussion. try adding some substance to the issue of "gestures" you mentioned. what is it you feel that israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? what would you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the arabs/palestinians in the way of "gesture"? timbo, israel has not been recognized as a state by the arabs, except for egypt, of course. isn't that a gesture? what has israel offered? well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties. what else is there? would you have israel sacrifice its security? nay, i think not. yea, i think not also. israel's #1 issue is "security" so *any* outcomes of "negotiation" certainly need to address isreal's perception of this the problem is is defining (by "outsiders", by israel, and by the arabs themselves) what is the #1 issue to the arab side. is it "palestinian statehood", is it that israel as a state should not and must not be allowed to exist, is it that the existence of a self-governing non- muslim "state" in the "islamic world" is intolerable...what? just as the dividing line between israel-fighting-for-security and israel-fighting- to-expand is often hard to discern by "outsiders" (especially to the arab world), so the rationale behind the arab-struggle-to-undermine-israel-in- any-way could either be based on visceral rejectionism or a sense of being wronged that still values peace, who knows which. anyway, in these talks, what "gestures" would you think would be seen by israel as "substantial"? tim clock ph.d./graduate student uci tel#: 714,8565361 department of politics and society fax#: 714,8568441 university of california - irvine home tel#: 714,8563446 irvine, ca 92717 
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 erginel) asked: [ee] no, no flaming here. just a simple question. ...with a simple answer! [ee] as far as i know most of the armenians belong to the gregorian orthodox [ee] faith and such was the case in nineteenth century ottoman empire. it is [ee] also known that some armenian communities were converted into catholicism [ee] and protestantism by the western european missionaries in this period. the vast majority of armenians in eastern anatolia were gregorian or armenian apostolic. there was, however, a higher percentage of non-gregorian armenians in cilicia, closer to the mediterranean, in adana, marash, aintab, etc. [ee] another known fact is that almost half of the armenians living in anatolia [ee] did not speak any armenian, but used turkish in their everyday lives. this is not true. while it was forbidden for armenians to speak armenian in certain areas of cilician armenia, most all armenians spoke armenian. in fact, turks who interacted with armenians also spoke armenian! for sure, most all armenians, especially men, also knew turkish in order to function in larger [ee] my question is, given so many separations in the armenian community, what [ee] was the common denominator of the armenian people that allowed armenian [ee] nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century? as i stated, religion [ee] was not uniform (unlike the greeks) and many armenians couldn't even speak [ee] armenian. i would like to know what factors brought the armenians in the [ee] ottoman empire together and led to the formation of an armenian [ee] consciousness. the armenians in turkey were persecuted because they were armenian, regardless of the specific branch of christianity they professed. the resultant armenian nationalism was in direct reaction to this persecution. even at the later stages of wwi, and after the genocide, many armenians who were converted to islam were also exterminated because they continued as armenian moslems. this practice continued well into the 1920s by ataturk in parallel with the policy of clearing out pockets of steadfast islamic fundamentalism. many of these converted armenians, ironically, in order to stay alive, were staunch moslems. [ee] any information will be appreciated. you answered your own question! the common thread throughout your inquiry was the word armenian! [ee] regards, david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "armenia has not learned a lesson in s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | anatolia and has forgotten the p.o. box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93 cambridge, ma 02238 | -- late turkish president turgut ozal 
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 i like what mr. joseph biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". he went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious bigotry" actually, this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way. bosinan muslims, in collaboration with the nazis, did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now. this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word. what a lie..!!?? ask the victims of the nazis. don't take the bosnian muslims' word for it. ask the holoucost survivors who helped them, you will hear that the bosnian muslims (among others) helped them. i also do object to the term ethnic cleansing, since what is happening in bosnia is not ethnic cleansing, they all have the same ethnicity, what is different is religion. they are orthodox christians, catholic christians, and muslims. it's religious cleansing. also watching people being rounded up and slaughtered by the slitting of the throat, raped collectively and systematically, driven out of their homes by the millions (!!!!), tortured in concentration camps, maimed and ..... does indeed amount to moral rape. nothing in the history justifies what's happening. satya prabhakar 
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 <cpr@igc.apc.org> (in real life, elias davidson) quotes israel shahak a nutcase quoting a crackpot. next time, post this to rec.humor, or perhaps alt.conspiracy. jake livni jake@bony1.bony.com ten years from now, george bush will american-occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed president. 
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 there are treaties signed between greece and turkey which speak about a moslem minority in thraki and not of a turkish minority in thraki. the reason they talk about moslems and not about turks is that the majority of these people are not ethnik turks. they are pomaks and gypsies. oboy, this is exciting. first you discuss your non-existent literature tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of historical revisionism. are you related to 'arromdians' of the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle? the agreement on the exchange of minorities uses the term 'turks,' which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference to 'muslims.' the fact that the greek governments also mention the existence of a few thousand non-turkish muslims does not change the essential reality that there lives in western thrace a much bigger turkish minority. the 'pomaks' are also a muslim people, whom all the three nations (bulgarians, turks, and greeks) consider as part of themselves. do you know how the muslim turkish minority was organized according to the agreements? it also proves that the turkish people are trapped in greece and the greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world. the greek authorities deny even the existence of a turkish minority. they pursue the same denial in connection with the macedonians of greece. talk about oppression. in addition, in 1980 the 'democratic' greek parliament passed law no. 1091, virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and other charitable trusts. they have ceased to be self-supporting religious and cultural entities. talk about fascism. the greek governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective of the will of the turkish minority, as state official. although the orthodox church has full authority in similar matters in greece, the muslim turkish minority will have no say in electing its religious leaders. talk about democracy. the government of greece has recently destroyed an islamic convention in komotini. such destruction, which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the lausanne convention as well as the 'so-called' greek constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection of historical monuments. the government of greece, on the other hand, is building new churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward hellenizing the region. the longstanding use of the adjective 'turkish' in titles and on signboards is prohibited. the greek courts have ordered the closure of the turkish teachers' association, the komotini turkish youth association and the ksanti turkish association on grounds that there are no turks in western thrace. such community associations had been active until 1984. but they were first told to remove the word 'turkish' on their buildings and on their official papers and then eventually close down. this is also the final verdict (november 4, 1987) of the greek high court. helsinki watch, a well-known human rights group, had been investigating the plight of the turkish minority in greece. in august 1990, their findings were published in a report titled 'destroying ethnic identity: turks of greece.' the report confirmed gross violations of the human rights of the turkish minority by the greek authorities. it says for instance, the greek government recently destroyed an islamic convent in komotini. such destruction, which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the lausanne convention. |1| helsinki watch: "problems of turks in western thrace continue" ankara (a.a) in a 15-page report of the "helsinki watch" it is stated that the turkish minority in western thrace is still faced with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being implemented by the greek government be brought to an end. the report on western thrace emphasized that the greek government should grant social and political rights to all the members of minorities that are equal to those enjoyed by greek citizens and in addition they must recognize the existence of the "turkish minority" in western thrace and grant them the right to identify themselves as 'turks'. newspot, may 1992 |2| greece isolates west thrace turks the xanthi independent mp ahmet faikoglu said that the greek state is trying to cut all contacts and relations of the turkish minority with turkey. pointing out that while the greek minority living in istanbul is called "greek" by ethnic definition, only the religion of the minority in western thrace is considered. in an interview with the greek newspaper "ethnos" he said: "i am a greek citizen of turkish origin. the individuals of the minority living in western trace are also turkish." emphasizing the education problem for the turkish minority in western thrace faikoglu said that according to an agreement signed in 1951 greece must distribute textbooks printed in turkey in turkish minority schools in western thrace. recalling his activities and those of komotini independent mp dr. sadik ahmet to defend the rights of the turkish minority, faikoglu said. "in fact we helped greece. because we prevented greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before european countries by forcing the greek government to recognize our legal rights." on turco-greek relations, he pointed out that both countries are predestined to live in peace for geographical and historical reasons and said that turkey and greece must resist the foreign powers who are trying to create a rift between them by cooperating, adding that in turkey he observed that there was will to improve relations with greece. newspot, january 1993 |3| macedonian human rights activists to face trial in greece. two ethnic macedonian human rights activists will face trial in athens for alleged crimes against the greek state, according to a court summons (no. 5445) obtained by mils. hristos sideropoulos and tashko bulev (or anastasios bulis) have been charged under greek criminal law for making comments in an athenian magazine. sideropoulos and bulev gave an interview to the greek weekly magazine "ena" on march 11, 1992, and said that they as macedonians were denied basic human rights in greece and would field an ethnic macedonian candidate for the up-coming greek general election. bulev said in the interview: "i am not greek, i am macedonian." sideropoulos said in the article that "greece should recognise macedonia. the allegations regarding territorial aspirations against greece are tales... we are in a panic to secure the border, at a time when the borders and barriers within the eec are falling." the main charge against the two, according to the court summons, was that "they have spread...intentionally false information which might create unrest and fear among the citizens, and might affect the public security or harm the international interests of the country (greece)." the greek state does not recognise the existence of a macedonian ethnicity. there are believed to be between 350,000 to 1,000,000 ethnic macedonians living within greece, largely concentrated in the north. it is a crime against the greek state if anyone declares themselves macedonian. in 1913 greece, serbia-yugoslavia and bulgaria partioned macedonia into three pieces. in 1919 albania took 50 macedonian villages. the part under serbo-yugoslav occupation broke away in 1991 as the independent republic of macedonia. there are 1.5 million macedonians in the republic; 500,000 in bulgaria; 150,000 in albania; and 300,000 in serbia proper. sideropoulos has been a long time campaigner for macedonian human rights in greece, and lost his job as a forestry worker a few years ago. he was even exiled to an obscure greek island in the mediteranean. only pressure from amnesty international forced the greek government to allow him to return to his home town of florina (lerin) in northern greece (aegean macedonia), where the majority of ethnic macedonians live. balkan watchers see the sideropoulos affair as a show trial in which greece is desperate to clamp down on internal dissent, especially when it comes to the issue of recognition for its northern neighbour, the republic of macedonia. last year the state department of the united states condemned greece for its bad treatment of ethnic macedonians and turks (who largely live in western thrace). but it remains to be seen if the us government will do anything until the presidential elections are over. m. i. l. s. 91, rue du craetveld - kraatveldstraat 91 orce nikolov 28 1120 brussels, belgium skopje, macedonia tel/fax: +32/2/268 18 48 tel/fax:+38 91 201 566 modem: +32/2/262 28 97 n.acc: famibank-citibank belgium 954 8691431 92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 by nancy najarian huddled around one measly candle or kerosene lamp in the cold? how to make others feel the isolation of living in a country of 3.5 million people completely blockaded by hostile neighbors, prevented from receiving adequate supplies of fuel to keep the electric plants running, hospitals open, schools in operation? will anybody a typical armenian revisionist. as in the past in x-soviet armenia, and today in azerbaijan, for utopic and idiotic causes the armenians brought havoc to their neighbors. a short-sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods the armenians continue to become pernicious for the region. as usual, they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors. nagorno-karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to x-soviet armenia. besides the geographical aspect, nagorno-karabag is the historic homeland and the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary heritage of azerbaijan, which renders the armenian claims preposterous, even lunatic. no one in his or her mind could have imagined that one day such a devious turn of event could have plagued the azeris. one cannot even imagine the reverse case to occur, for the armenians either would have slaughtered the azerbaijanis, or put them to forced exile to maintain their own majority. where was she? an appeal to mankind during the last three years azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the soviet union. all humanitarian, constitutional human rights guaranteed by the un charter, universal declaration of human rights, helsinki agreements, human problems international forums, documents signed by the soviet union - all of them are violated. the ussr's president, government bodies do not defend azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace. the 140,000 strong army of armenian terrorists with moscow's tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against azerbaijan. as a result, a part of azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded. some 200,000 azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the armenian ssr, their historical homeland. together with them 64,000 russians and 22,000 kurds have also been driven out, a part of them now settled in azerbaijan. some 40,000 turkish-meskhetians, lezghins and representatives of other caucasian nationalities who escaped from the central asia where the president and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations. one of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the armenian extremists' destruction of the karabakh scientific experimental base of the institute of genetics and selection of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr. we beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance, for the honour and dignity of 7 million azerbaijanis are violated, its territory, culture and history are trampled, its people are shot. there is persistent negative image of azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over the whole world by soviet mass media, armenian lobby in the ussr and the united states. one of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance while the truth is that all these shootings and recent events stem from the territorial claims of armenia on it is a well documented fact that before the conflict there were no frictions between armenians and azerbaijanis on the issue of karabakh. hundreds and thousands armenians placidly and calmly lived and worked in azerbaijan land, had their representatives in all government bodies of the azerbaijan we are for a united, indivisible, sovereign azerbaijan, we are for a common caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one of the founding fathers of the azerbaijan democratic republic - muhammed emin rasulzade. but all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the soviet leadership in favour of the armenian expansionists encouraged by moscow and intended to create a new '1,000 year reich' - the 'great armenia' - by annexing the neighboring lands. the world public opinion shed tears to save the whales, suffers for penguins dying out in the antarctic continent. but what about the lives of seven million human beings? if these people are muslims, does it mean that they are less valuable? can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other all people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding. this is not the first appeal of azerbaijan to the world public opinion. our previous appeals were unheard. however, we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the russian and armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins. the committee for people's help to karabakh (of the) academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr "painful search .." the gruesome extent of february's killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan - about 600 men, women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four-year war over nagorny karabakh. the figure is drawn from azeri investigators, hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press. diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates. the 25 february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four-year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh, the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday. the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre, but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians. the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku. later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief-stricken azerbaijan's wild and contradictory allegations of up to 2,000 the state prosecuter, aydin rasulov, the cheif investigator of a 15-man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the "hojali disaster", said his figure of 600 people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings. a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali. an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may - 479 dead people named and more than 200 bodies reported unidentified. this figure of nearly 700 dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova, the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence. francois zen ruffinen, head of delegation of the international red cross in baku, said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of 580 bodies received at his mosque from hojali, most of them civilians. "we did not count the bodies. but the figure seems reasonable. it is no fantasy," mr zen ruffinen said. "we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead." mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre. "don't get worked up. it will take several months to get a final figure," the 43-year-old lawyer said at his small office. mr rasulov knows about these things. it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that 131 people were killed and 714 wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january 1990. those nationalists, the popular front, finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali, an azeri town which lies about 70 miles from the border with armenia, fell to the armenians. officially, 184 people have so far been certified as dead, being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic's forensic department. "this is just a small percentage of the dead," said rafiq youssifov, the republic's chief forensic scientist. "they were the only bodies brought to us. remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within 24 hours." of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14 years old. gunshots killed 151 people, shrapnel killed 20 and axes or blunt instruments killed 10. exposure in the highland snows killed the last three. thirty-three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation, including ears, noses, breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out, according to professor youssifov's report. those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed, mr rasulov said. files from mr rasulov's investigative commission are still disorganised - lists of 44 azeri militiamen are dead here, six policemen there, and in handwriting of a mosque attendant, the names of 111 corpses brought to be washed in just one day. the most heartbreaking account from 850 witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov, an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on 27 "there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly: 470-500 in hojali, 650-700 people by the stream and the road and 85-100 visible around nakhchivanik village," mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter "people waved up to us for help. we saw three dead children and one two-year-old alive by one dead woman. the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return." there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces. the independent, london, 12/6/'92 heroes who fought on amid the bodies aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe-bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers, torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago, writes hugh pope. "i'm still wearing the same clothes, i don't have any others," the 51-year-old carpenter said, beginning his account of the hojali disaster. "i was wounded in five places, but i am lucky to be alive." mr sadikov and his wife were short of food, without electricity for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12 days. they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the 2,000 to 3,000 people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh. "at about 11pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before, eight or nine kinds of weapons, artillery, heavy machine-guns, the lot," mr sadikov said. soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack. some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town, down a hill, through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side. to escape, the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about 15 miles away. they thought they were going to make it, until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak. "none of my group was hurt up to then ... then we were spotted by a car on the road, and the armenian outposts started opening fire," mr sadikov said. azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians, but their efforts were mostly in vain. mr sadikov said only 10 people from his group of 80 made it through, including his wife and militiaman son. seven of his immediate relations died, including his 67-year-old elder brother. "i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat," he said, pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes. "we have never got any of the bodies back." the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire. one hero of the evacuation, alif hajief, was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group's crossing, mr sadikov said. another hero, elman memmedov, the mayor of hojali, said he and several others spent the whole day of 26 february in the bushy hillside, surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay. as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam, there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee. "the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack. some people just kept going," mr sadikov said. "i had to get to the hospital for treatment. i was in a bad way. they even found a bullet in my sock." victims of war: an azeri woman mourns her son, killed in the hojali massacre in february (left). nurses struggle in primitive conditions (centre) to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage. grief-stricken relatives in the town of agdam (right) weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims. calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within 24 photographs: liu heung / ap frederique lengaigne / reuter the independent, london, 12/6/'92 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 it looks like ben baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes. i used to respect him, today i lost the minimal amount of respect that i struggled to keep for him. to all muslim netters: this is the same guy who gave a "fatwah" that saudi arabia can be used by the united ststes to attack iraq . they were attacking the iraqis to drive them out of kuwait, a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties to saudi citizens. and me thinks if the us had not helped out the iraqis would have swallowed saudi arabia, too (or at least the eastern oilfields). and no muslim country was doing much of anything to help liberate kuwait and protect saudi arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating in favor of that butcher saddam (who killed lotsa muslims), just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively rich muslims and also thumbing his nose at the west. so how would have *you* defended saudi arabia and rolled back the iraqi invasion, were you in charge of saudi arabia??? fatwah is as legitimate as this one. with that kind of "clergy", it might be an islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion means "official clergy". i think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an official religion (de facto or de jure), because with human nature like it is, the ambitious and not the pious will always be the ones who rise to power. there are just too many people in this world (or any country) for the citizens to really know if a leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator. cairo, egypt (upi) -- the cairo-based arab organization for human rights (aohr) thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the committee for defense of legal rights in saudi arabia and said it was necessary to have such groups operating in all arab countries. you make it sound like these guys are angels, ilyess. (in your clarinet posting you edited out some stuff; was it the following???) friday's new york times reported that this group definitely is more conservative than even sheikh baz and his followers (who think that the house of saud does not rule the country conservatively enough). the nyt reported that, besides complaining that the government was not conservative enough, they have: - asserted that the (approx. 500,000) shiites in the kingdom are apostates, a charge that under saudi (and islamic) law brings the death penalty. diplomatic guy (sheikh bin jibrin), isn't he ilyess? - called for severe punishment of the 40 or so women who drove in public a while back to protest the ban on women driving. the guy from the group who said this, abdelhamoud al-toweijri, said that these women should be fired from their jobs, jailed, and branded as is this what you want to see happen, ilyess? i've heard many muslims say that the ban on women driving has no basis in the qur'an, the ahadith, etc. yet these folks not only like the ban, they want these women falsely called prostitutes? if i were you, i'd choose my heroes wisely, ilyess, not just reflexively rally behind anyone who hates anyone you hate. - say that women should not be allowed to work. - say that tv and radio are too immoral in the kingdom. now, the house of saud is neither my least nor my most favorite government on earth; i think they restrict religious and political reedom a lot, among other things. i just think that the most likely replacements for them are going to be a lot worse for the citizens of the country. but i think the house of saud is feeling the heat lately. in the last six months or so i've read there have been stepped up harassing by the muttawain (religious police---*not* government) of western women not fully veiled (something stupid for women to do, imo, because it sends the wrong signals about your morality). and i've read that they've cracked down on the few, home-based expartiate religious gatherings, and even posted rewards in (government-owned) newspapers offering money for anyone who turns in a group of expartiates who dare worship in their homes or any other secret place. so the government has grown even more intolerant to try to take some of the wind out of the sails of the more-conservative opposition. as unislamic as some of these things are, they're just a small taste of what would happen if these guys overthrow the house of saud, like they're trying to in the long run. is this really what you (and rached and others in the general west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd) want, ilyess? dave bakken ==>"the president is doing a fine job, but the problem is we don't know what to do with her husband." james carville (clinton campaign strategist),2/93 ==>"oh, please call daddy. mom's far too busy." chelsea to nurse, cspan, 2/93 
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 [deleted] is this really what you (and rached and others in the general west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd) want, ilyess? it's noteworthy that the posts about the west being evil etc are made not in some islamic hellhole but from the west. if the west is so bad, why do they come here? notice how they comfortably exercise their rights to free expression, something completely absent in their own countries. |vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly | |murthy@asl.dl.nec.com my own and have nothing to do with | | advanced switching lab, nec america, inc.| 
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 how to help palestinian education (from 'educational network', no. 11, april 1993, publ. by ramallah friends schools, p.o.box 66, ramallah, west bank, via israel tel. 972-2-956230, fax. 972-2-956231) many of our readers have written to us asking how individuals and organizations can help palestinian education. we have compiled a list of suggestions to guide you. if you are interested in pursuing one or more of these suggested activities, the educational network can aid you by /coordinating/ the initial contacts, /following up/, and /providing any other support/ you may need. 1. link your teachers' union with a teachers' union here --- linkage should be based on a shared pedagogical 2. get your union to actively support the right of palestinian teachers in the occupied territories to form unions: a. through the international labor organization (if your union is a member) b. contacting other international unions which have supported our right to form a union -- we can supply names and addresses. 3. establish a scholarship fund for one or more palestinian students to study at a palestinian university or school -- or establish a scholarship fund for a palestinian student or teacher to study at a university 4. reproduce and publish information about palestinian education: a. for your union membership; b. for the outside community. the educational network can supply up-to-date information and statistics. 5. send delegations of teachers to visit the occupied territories during periods when our schools are in the network can arrange an itinerary, make hotel and local travel arrangements, and provide a guide for the 6. sponsor palestinian teachers to visit your city for an educational tour: a. to see schools and speak with educators in order to learn about progressive pedagogical ideas and experiences; b. to speak about the conditions of palestinian the network will coordinate from palestine. 7. establish teacher-exchange programs for one year in which a palestinian teacher from a private school teaches at a public or private school abroad while a teacher from that school spends a year in a palestinian private school. 8. send an experienced educator to the occupied territories to give workshops (all-day workshops or two- day workshops) on innovative teaching techniques. the network will pay for the person's food, lodging, and travel while in palestine, and will serve as guide. 9. set up a pen-pal program with a palestinian school in either english or french. 10. set up a sister-school program with a palestinian school which would actively involve teachers as well as students at both schools -- a great tool for building international understanding and mutual sensitivity. 11. keep the educational network informed about important educational conferences so that we can send a palestinian teacher to attend. 12. send to the educational network articles or other writings or books dealing with innovative approaches and ideas in the field of education so that we can then disseminate the information locally. 13. support an educational development project in the occupied territories. 
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 rabin's plans for a palestinian police (from the other front, alternative information center, jerusalem, 5 may 1993) "the decision to view the setting up of a local police force for (sic) the palestinians as the central issue for deliberation at the peace talks to be resumed next week - even before subjects like elections in the territories and areas of juridiction in the framework of autonomy - is a sign of the israeli government's serious attitude towards the peace process. "the setting up of a police force is not part of the 'gesture package', but deals with the very heart and substance of the palestinian struggle for national identity. as it turns out, the main objective guiding the prime minister in the setting up of a palestinian police force - and apparently also supported by foreign minister shimon peres - is to ensure the holding of democratic elections in the territories." thus writes amnon barzilai in his editorial (israeli daily hadashot, 23 april), and his position articulates the thinking of most of the commentators who dealt with this issue in the past two weeks. over against them stand the settlers and rightwing parties, who also interpret the decision to encourage the establishment of a palestinian police force as a significant step towards the instituting of real autonomy, something which will restrict what can be done by the jewish settlers in the west bank and gaza strip. with a variety of demonstrations, including street theater on 'what will happen when there is a palestinian police force', rightwing elements are attempting to frighten the israeli public and to pressure rabin to go back on his decision. members of the kach movement have even begun to organize a 'settler police force' in the occupied territories, as counter-balance to the future palestinian police force. however, as barzilai points out, the main function of the new police force - as far as the israeli government is concerned - has nothing to do with the settlers, over whom they will apparently have no authority, but will control political groups within the palestinian population, whom the government is interested in neutralizing. writes barzilai: "...according to ideas currently taking shape, the setting up of a local police force in the territories will precede, not only the stage of electsion, but also the final stages of the preparing of the interim autonomy agreement. "the willingness of the israeli government to set up a local palestinian police force is evidence that the government is serious about arriving at a settlement with the palestinians..." it's no wonder that the palestinian public is also greatly worried about this new israeli initiative. and it is inevitable that pressure will be brought to bear on faisal husseini and the rest of the delegation members, from a variety of directions, to refuse the gift which rabin would like to give them. but at this stage, it looks like the palestinians are cooperating in the fulfillment of his add'l comment by e.d.: numerous palestinians fear that israel might succeed in co-opting some palestinian circles by this idea. they fear that a palestinian police force, controlled in fact by israel, might act even more brutally than the idf. the idea of using a surrogate police force is not new. it is used by israel in lebanon and was used by the nazis to control jewish ghetto-dwellers. 
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 you know it is true don't you? well, apparently we have another son of dro 'the butcher' to contend with. you should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. if you feel that you can simply act as an armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact. i will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan to 'prove' that the armenian genocide of 2.5 million turks and kurds is nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. we are neither in x-soviet union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, that employs the dictates of hitler to quell domestic unrest. also, feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest asala/sdpa/arf terrorists, the armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the armenian criminal organizations. x-soviet armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. you, and those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up. during the first world war and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland. the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the 20th century acted upon an entire people. this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as u.s. ambassador mark bristol, william langer, ambassador layard, james barton, stanford shaw, arthur chester, john dewey, robert dunn, papazian, nalbandian, ohanus appressian, jorge blanco villalta, general nikolayef, general bolkovitinof, general prjevalski, general odiselidze, meguerditche, kazimir, motayef, twerdokhlebof, general hamelin, rawlinson, avetis aharonian, dr. stephan eshnanie, varandian, general bronsart, arfa, dr. hamlin, boghos nubar, sarkis atamian, katchaznouni, rachel bortnick, halide edip, mccarthy, w. b. allen, paul muratoff and many j. c. hurewitz, professor of government emeritus, former director of the middle east institute (1971-1984), columbia university. bernard lewis, cleveland e. dodge professor of near eastern history, princeton university. halil inalcik, university professor of ottoman history & member of the american academy of arts & sciences, university of chicago. peter golden, professor of history, rutgers university, newark. stanford shaw, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. thomas naff, professor of history & director, middle east research institute, university of pennsylvania. ronald jennings, associate professor of history & asian studies, university of illinois. howard reed, professor of history, university of connecticut. dankwart rustow, distinguished university professor of political science, city university graduate school, new york. john woods, associate professor of middle eastern history, university of chicago. john masson smith, jr., professor of history, university of california at berkeley. alan fisher, professor of history, michigan state university. avigdor levy, professor of history, brandeis university. andreas g. e. bodrogligetti, professor of history, university of california at los angeles. kathleen burrill, associate professor of turkish studies, columbia university. roderic davison, professor of history, george washington university. walter denny, professor of history, university of massachusetts. caesar farah, professor of history, university of minnesota. tom goodrich, professor of history, indiana university of pennsylvania. tibor halasi-kun, professor emeritus of turkish studies, columbia university. justin mccarthy, professor of history, university of louisville. jon mandaville, professor of history, portland state university (oregon). robert olson, professor of history, university of kentucky. madeline zilfi, professor of history, university of maryland. james stewart-robinson, professor of turkish studies, university of michigan. .......so the list goes on and on and on..... serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 another thing i find interesting when turks whine about armenians taking control of their land is that turkey is still occupying n. cyrus. how can you have the gall to even open your mouths about karabakh, until turkish troops are completely out of the independent island of cyprus. no wonder you 'wieneramus' are in such a mess. following the greek cypriot attempt to annex the island to greece with the aid of the greek army, turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements. turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the island, turkish cypriots. for those turkish cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island since 1571. and the next is 'karabag'. the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece, someday, whatever the cost to the parties involved. the history speaks for itself. greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop makarios. the release of nikos sampson, a member of eoka [national organization of cypriot fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the 'enosis' mentality continues to survive in greece. one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to destroy the island's independence by annexing it to greece. of course, the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct. the museum of barbarism 2 irfan bey street, kumsal area, nicosia, cyprus it is the house of dr. nihat ilhan, a major who was serving at the cyprus turkish army contingent. during the attacks launched against the turks by the greeks, on 20th december 1963, dr. nihat ilhan's wife and three children were ruthlessly and brutally killed in the bathroom, where they had tried to hide, by savage greeks. dr. nihat ilhan happened to be on duty that night, the 24th december 1963. pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which has been converted into a museum. an eye-witness account of how a turkish family was butchered by greek terrorists the date is the 24th of december, 1963... the onslaught of the greeks against the turks, which started three days ago, has been going on with all its ferocity; and defenseless women, old men and children are being brutally killed by greeks. and now kumsal area of nicosia witnesses the worst example of the greeks savage bloodshed... the wife and the three infant children of dr. nihat ilhan, a major on duty at the camp of the cyprus turkish army contingent, are mercilessly and dastardly shot dead while hiding in the bathroom of their house, by maddened greeks who broke into their home. a glaring example of greek barbarism. let us now listen to the relating of the said incident told by mr. hasan yusuf gudum, an eye witness, who himself was wounded during the same terrible event. "on the night of the 24th of december, 1963 my wife feride hasan and i were paying a visit to the family of major dr. nihat ilhan. our neighbours mrs. ayshe of mora, her daughter ishin and mrs. ayshe's sister novber were also with us. we were all sitting having supper. all of a sudden bullets from the pedieos river direction started to riddle the house, sounding like heavy rain. thinking that the dining-room where we were sitting was dangerous, we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer. altogether we were nine persons. we all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet. we waited in fear. mrs. ilhan the wife of major doctor, was standing in the bath with her three children murat, kutsi and hakan in her arms. suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open. greeks had come in and were combing, every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets. during these moments i heard voices saying, in greek, "you want taksim eh!" and then bullets started flying in the bathroom. mrs. ilhan and her three children fell into the bath. they were shot. at this moment the greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again. i heard one of the major's children moan, then i fainted. when i came to myself 2 or 3 hours later, i saw mrs. ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath. i and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded. but what had happened to my wife? then i remembered and immediately ran to the toilet, where, in the doorway, i saw her body. she was brutally murdered. in the street admist the sound of shots i heard voices crying "help, help. is there no one to save us?" i became terrified. i thought that if the greeks came again and found that i was not dead they would kill me. so i ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double-bed. an our passed by. in the distance i could still hear shots. my mouth was dry, so i came out from under the bed and drank some water. then i put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom, which was exactly as i had left in an hour ago. there i offered sweets to mrs. ayshe, her daughter and mrs. novber who were all wounded. we waited in the bathroom until 5 o'clock in the morning. i thought morning would never come. we were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital. finally, as we could walk, mrs. novber and i, went out into the street hoping to find help, and walked as far as koshklu chiftlik. there, we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on. when i regained my consciousness i said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought mrs. ayshe and her daughter. after staying three days in the hospital i was sent by plane to ankara for further treatment. there i have had four months treatment but still i cannot use my arm. on my return to cyprus, greeks arrested me at the airport. all i have related to you above i told the greeks during my detention. they then released me." on foot into cyprus's devastated turkish quarter we went tonight into the sealed-off turkish quarter of nicosia in which 200 to 300 people have been slaughtered in the last five we were the first western reporters there, and we saw some terrible sights. in the kumsal quarter at no. 2, irfan bey sokagi, we made our way into a house whose floors were covered with broken glass. a child's bicycle lay in a corner. in the bathroom, looking like a group of waxworks, were three children piled on top of their murdered mother. in a room next to it we glimpsed the body of a woman shot in the this, we were told, was the home of a turkish army major whose family had been killed by the mob in the first violence. today was five days later, and still they lay there. rene maccoll and daniel mcgeachie, (from the "daily express") "...i saw in a bathroom the bodies of a mother and three infant children murdered because their father was a turkish officer..." max clos, le figaro 25-26 january, 1964 serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 thompson schreiber) posted: [pts] armenia and azerbaijan: two views [pts] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [pts] washington report on middle east affairs [pts] april/may 1993, vol. xi, no. 9 [pts] [pts] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [pts] [pts] [pts] life under blockade in yerevan [pts] ------------------------------ [pts] by nancy najarian ms. najarian wrote on her personal observations. if somebody wishes to counter the reality she described, fine. [pts] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [pts] [pts] [pts] the conflict over nagorno-karabakh: an azeri perspective [pts] -------------------------------------------------------- [pts] by alec rasizade [pts] [pts] [ar] western readers have learned of the nagorno (upper) karabakh [ar] controversy through reports from that remote area by western [ar] correspondents and from commentaries by member of the long-established [ar] armenian-american community. azeri views on this dispute have [ar] appeared rarely if at all in the western news media. therefore let me [ar] present _washington report_ readers with some basic truths about the [ar] origins of the conflict. during the past two years, if one reads all the commentaries on the subject, a small minority of the writers have been armenia or azeri. the following should be interesting. [ar] armenian leaders claim that azerbaijan was the first to oppress and [ar] expel the armenian minority from the azerbaijani republic. actually, [ar] the initiative to banish the azeri minority and convert the armenian [ar] republic into a homogeneous state began in the winter of 1987-1988, [ar] when 165,000 azeris were driven out of armenia. following that move, [ar] there were massacres of armenians in the azerbaijani cities of sumgait [ar]in february 1988 and two years later, in baku in january 1990. this not true. other than simply checking the newspapers, i will quote from an independent human rights report. in the _pax cristi netherlands_, 29 september 1991, page 28, we read: "by mid-november, many incidents took place in several places in azerbaijan. the apf [azeri popular front] challenged the communist party for power. ... after ten days, the authorities came in with tanks to reimpose their power. in nakhitchevan, the last armenian villages were deported. in ganja, armenians were attacked and killed. all 40,000 armenian inhabitants fled the city..." between 22 november and 8 december 1988, refugees from ganja arrived in armenia while all 167,000 azeris in armenia were chased away." in this part of the world february 1988 [start of organized anti-armenian pogroms in azerbaijan] come before november and december of 1988! [ar] azeri parliamentary committees have compiled evidence indicating that [ar] both events were inspired from moscow to secure russian imperial rule [ar] in the transcaucasus, according to the roman principle of "divide and [ar] rule." similar conspiracies are evident throughout the five-year [ar] history of the conflict. it is interesting that the azeris killed, burnt, raped the armenians but the perpetrators blame russians, and armenians themselves on other occasions. [ar] each time the parties have been about to reach an agreement (in [ar] zheleznovodsk, moscow, tehran, rome, geneva and alma-ata), an [ar] invisible hand provoked further bloodshed. those interested in [ar] maintaining the azeri-armenian conflict, as well as the georgian [ar] turmoil, are imperialist forces in russia, and probably in iran. incorrect! when were the people of nagorno-karabakh ever involved in an agreement? never. until azerbaijan sits down with the armenians of nagorno- karabakh there will never be an end to this conflict. [ar] the armenian offensive last spring created more than 100,000 new azeri [ar] refugees from the captured towns of upper and lower karabakh and [ar] adjacent rural districts. today 500,000 azeri refugees throng the [ar] city of baku and environs, providing more problems for the newly [ar] elected popular front government, which is opposed by the rigidly [ar] nationalistic national independence party. it's called war. if the azerbaijanis didn't try to deport and allow the armenians of nagorno-karabakh to live in their ways, keep their armenian culture, these armenians would not have had to defend their existence. the azeris should not have assumed that armenians were going to roll over and play dead. [ar] how can a western-style democracy survive in a small muslim country [ar] where 1 million of the 7 million inhabitants are unemployed? in the [ar] absence of any international effort to help azeri refugees, as kurdish [ar] and bosnian refugees have been helped, how can the azeri government [ar] reject the demand of these exiles to recapture their lands, homes and [ar] possessions? the azeri government should have thought about such thnings before they attempted to deprive armenians of "lands, homes, and possessions". [ar] such simple realities must be understood in the west. [ar] misunderstanding caucasian politics leads both western and russian [ar] public opinion to imagine a permanent, and therefore irreversible, [ar] ethnic and religious rivalry in the caucasus. true, and you, dr. alec rasizade, should practice what you preach! [ar] i think western reluctance to interfere derives from this idea. [ar] meanwhile, continuation of the war could draw both eastern and western [ar] states into the conflict through activation of various security [ar] alliances. these include, on the armenian side, the moscow-led [ar] commonwealth forces under the tashkent mutual security pact, signed [ar] may 15, 1992. on the azeri side, should turkey get involved as the [ar] guarantor of the nakhichevan autonomy through the kars treaty of oct. [ar] 13, 1921, these include the north atlantic treaty forces. western interference! turkish intervention! the moment turkey dares step into this conflict it will close the doors of any chance of turkey being part of europe (as if it ever will) and will destroy the eastern third of anatolia! dr. rasizade, international realpolitik is not as simple-minded as you would have us believe. [ar] upper karabakh generally is described in western press reports as an [ar]"armenian enclave within azerbaijan." the truth is that the armenians [ar] began to appear there only in the middle of the last century. incorrect once again. a brief scan of history addresses such a foolish armenians today, refer to the area of nagorno-karabakh as "artsakh", which comes from the urartian term "urtekhe-urtekhini". no azeris yet! ancient greeks referred to artsakh as "orkhistena". no azeris yet! in the first half of the 6th century b.c., artsakh, as part of ervandid armenia of media. no azeris yet! from the end of the 4th century b.c., artsakh was part of the armenian kingdom of ervan. no azeris yet! artsakh was still part of the armenian empire of tigran. orkhistena, or artsakh is refereed to by strabo, as part of armenia. no azeris yet! after armenia was divided between the persian and byzantine empires in 387 a.d. until 428, artsakh was part of armenia. no azeris yet! end of the 5th century, utik and artsakh became principalities of the aranshakhiks. no azeris yet! by the 7th century an artsakh dialect of armenian formed. no azeris yet! emperor konstantin (913-959) addressees a letter to the prince of khachen "to armenia". khachen was the central principality of artsakh. no azeris yet! in the decree of paul i (1797), the number of armenian families in this area was stated as 11,000. it was from the 16th to the 18th centuries that non-armenians from central asia, asia minor, and kurdistan first began to be exercise political influence in the planes of artsakh. caucasian muslims around karabakh! in 1813 karabagh becomes part of russia. officiallt part of russia 1828. some muslims in karabakh! in 1914, the number of armenian churches in nagorno-karabagh was 224, 188 priests, 206,768 parishioners in 224 armenian towns and villages. the armenian percentage of the population was over 90%. max: 10% azeris in karabakh -- assuming no kurds! consider the following statement by the azerbaijani revcom on december 1, 1920: "the worker-peasant government of azerbaidzan, having been informed of the proclamation of armenia a soviet socialist republic, sends its greetings to the brother people. from this day the previous boundaries between armenia and azerbaidzan are annulled. nagornyi karabakh, zangezur, and nakhichevan are recognized as integral parts of the armenian socialis long live the brotherhood and union of the workers and peasants of soviet armenia and azerbaidzan! chairman of the revcom of azerbaidzan n. narimanov people's commissar for foreign affairs guseinov" [ar] a few years ago they celebrated the 150th anniversary of their [ar] resettlement from persia to karabakh, after it came under russian [ar] rule. no, incorrect. the 1988 celebration was the 150th anniversary of russian rule in the caucasus, including karabakh! [ar] at the same time the russian colonial administration also drew [ar] in russian and german settlers, who were welcomed by azeris. how [ar] would americans react if the large numbers of armenians living in [ar] southern california suddenly claimed an armenian homeland, and [ar] demanded separation from california? non-sequitur. [ar] armenian historians insist that before the armenian resettlement [ar] karabakh was inhabited by aboriginal christians. that is correct. armenian historians don't say this! [ar] the people of medieval caucasian albania adopted christianity in the [ar] fourth century. but those ancient residents had no link to and [ar] nothing in common with armenians. considering the caucasian albans were of the armenian apostolic faith, and their utilization of the armenian language in their liturgy, makes such an argument totally invalid! [ar] azeris would have a better claim to [ar] be successors of albania, since azeris have for centuries inhabited, [ar] dominated, and developed the karabakh part of the azeri nation. wishing to be part of a people non-existent for nearly a millennium for geo- political advantage is rather outrageous. in addition to such absurdity, azeris claim to be turks, persians, and all the while are azerizing their minorities, such as the lezgians, kurds, tat, talish, and a host of other nationalities which may amount to nearly half the population of azerbaijan. [ar] both armenia and azerbaijan last year signed the final act of the [ar] conference on security and cooperation in europe of 1975, and the [ar] paris charter for new europe of 1990, confirming their mutual [ar] adherence to the principle of inviolability of existing borders. this [ar] principle means that the borders and territorial integrity of the [ar] republic of azerbaijan are to be guaranteed by all of the signatory [ar] nations, not just by turkey. such agreements do not give azerbaijan the right to de-populate karabakh of [ar] this is one key to intervention on behalf either of the u.n., the [ar] csce, the commonwealth, nato or iran. the second key to untying the [ar] caucasian knot is to determine who is the aggressor, according to the [ar] u.n. definition of 1974. fine, so why has azerbaijan refused to allow un troops into the armenian enclave? what is azerbaijan afraid of? perhaps the fact that the territory is the home of armenians, the un, would by definition, support the local population! [ar] when that is accomplished, the international community can and should [ar] apply to the aggressor in the caucasus international sanctions such as [ar] those presently being employed against serbia and montenegro in the [ar] former yugoslavia. such decisive collective international action can [ar] halt further aggression in karabakh, and prevent the armenian-azeri [ar] conflict from growing and spreading. azerbaijan's refusal to allow the armenians of karabakh to determine their own future the is issue, not viewing isolating events out of context are actions that will address the karabakh conflict. viewing events in a war in isolation and out of context is like viewing the landing at normandy as an act of allied aggression! [ar] dr. alec rasizade, senior research officer at the academy of sciences [ar] of azerbaijan, is a visiting researcher at the harriman institute of [ar] columbia university in new york. ha! david davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "armenia has not learned a lesson in s.d.p.a. center for regional studies | anatolia and has forgotten the p.o. box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93 cambridge, ma 02238 | -- late turkish president turgut ozal 
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 i suspect it might have to do with pan-turkism blinding certain people. you don't get it - do you? during the years of world war i, the x-soviet armenian government has planned and perpetrated the 'genocide' of the muslim people, which not only took the lives of 2.5 million muslim people, but was also the method used to empty the turkish homeland of its inhabitants. to this day, turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-soviet armenia. in order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic turkish homeland, which is the crux of turkish political demands, fascist x-soviet armenia continues its anti-turkish policy in the following ways: 1. x-soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political 2. x-soviet armenia, employing asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish 3. x-soviet armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through the asala/sdpa/arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people's vehement demands and protests. 4. using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-turkish supporters of the turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian. using all the aforementioned methods, the x-soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue. yet despite the efforts of the x-soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the armenians, the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide. with the full knowledge that the struggle for the turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages, the turkish and kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims of the turkish genocide demand: 1. that the x-soviet armenian government, as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship, recognize the turkish genocide; 2. that x-soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people; 3. that the x-soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide; 4. that all world governments, and especially the united states, officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure; 5. that the u.s. government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-soviet armenia, and officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of turkish territorial demands; 6. that the x-soviet republics officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 2.5 million muslim people in their history books. serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 and, if you are jewish, you are a self-hating jew. there can be no doubt of this. there are doubts about it. why don't you define what self-hating jew means? i found the idea itself of being a self-hating jew to be one of those rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a meaning when in fact it has none. i hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like: look at this person, that is a self-hating jew. "who is a jew? a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." a. j. heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel. 
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 providing safety and security for one's own people is the most fundamental responsibility of any political entity. for the palestinian leadership to refuse to accept this responsibility, i.e. take the responsibility to protect their people from radical palestinian elements who are opposed to the peace process, is reprehensible. to argue that a palestinian police force would be established in order to control peaceful political groups only reinforces the reality that the palestinian leadership, so far, can not exercise control over radical palestinian elements nor effectively deal with the killing of palestinians by palestinians. this is a problem that can only be solved by the palestinian people. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77379">
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 and, if you are jewish, you are a self-hating jew. there can be no doubt of this. there are doubts about it. why don't you define what self-hating jew means? i found the idea itself of being a self-hating jew to be one of those i hope you can come up with a definition in itself... try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples. to me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture (thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring of "context" results) "hate" their culture. i believe that things are getting mixed here. critizicing israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute negatives of that culture". maybe, because a person can see the positives of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the state of israel. i, for one, consider the actions of the state of israel with respect to the human rights of the palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of respect and what the jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and years in the diaspora. that certainly describes elias, since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the palestinian experience and perspective, there exists also that of israelis. he might not want to recognize that. it does not make him a self-hating jew, as far as i see it. at most, he is a person who is not telling the truth. "who is a jew? a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." a. j. heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel. and, this is precisely why israeli society has been tremendously harmed by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response to an "other" perceived as a threat. just as with you, there has long been a strident and emotional debate about the pain israelis feel when forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. the trauma of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. but, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other". if you read this newsgroup, for example, israel is never guilty by herself. she is always responding to the actions of the "other", and it goes as if the actions of isreal do not also affect the response of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. also, there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why. there is always and excuse. there is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do. and, what is the worst part for me, there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de-humanize the "other", as if the other did not care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc. tim clock ph.d./graduate student 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77380">
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 "muslim" in ex-yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion. in fact, not all muslims in b-h are followers of islam. therefore, there do (did?) exist in ex-yugoslavia "christian muslims." yeah! that's it! :) you've really outdone yourself this time nick... don't forget the "davidian muslims"... :) islam is not a race. it's a religion. you can be white, black, fijian or alaskan. i guess you didn't absorb too much of the malcolm x interest circulating. you see, the whole point of islam is that it stresses equality amongst all peoples. now, i do realize this is difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in serbian ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult. is your stomach all right? unable to digest your lunch? cool down... in the context of bosnia muslims are a nation. and nobody talked about them being a race. it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens. the croat, muslim, and serb political leaders *all* chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. terms of secession? you are, of course, joking, right nick? nobody *chose* to fight. bosnia and croatia were *internationally* recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well-documented genocide. that makes them an outside aggressor. it's a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing. there is no question of civil war... and yugoslavia was a recognized nation. if you apply the principle of self determination to yugoslavia then you should apply it to croatia and bosnia. of course, you might want to apply again to 
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 gaza city, israeli-occupied gaza strip (upi) -- palestinian gunmen sunday shot and killed two israelis who entered gaza to buy cheap produce, and two arabs who were assisting them. elsewhere in the crowded strip, israeli troops killed a 18-month-old infant and a 12-year-old boy during rock-throwing clashes at two refugee can anybody guess this from the title? can anyone figure out what kind of deranged parent was stupid enough to bring their infant on a rock throwing crusade (or jihad, sorry)? 18-month old infants certainly don't walk around the streets on their own. that would lead me to believe that some nimrod of a "parent" brought them along for a little terrorism. not me, i thought that a clash between israelis and arabs resulted in four deaths on one side and two on the other. thats what happened. the drive-by shooting outside the jewish settlement of gadid in southern gaza prompted prime minister yitzhak rabin to warn israelis they were ``endangering their lives'' by doing illegal business in the occupied territories. how about being illegally settled there? i am not sure about the signals the israelis are sending, one day they are willing to accept a jordan/west bank federation, the other they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither did the u.s, "the honest brocker") (details of the killings omitted, plo,hamas graffiti both claim responsability) uhm, last i heard, the territories were disputed. israel's occupation is not illegal. they are legally allowed to remain there until a settlement is reached with the arabs which, from the behavior of the palestinian negotitating team, will probably be never. the israelis had entered gaza in a car driven by the man from hebron, now don't tell me that this could not be an israeli spy. we will know later. huh? they were buying vegetables. which carried the easily identified blue license plates of arab vehicles in the west bank. when israelis enter gaza with their own cars, which carry yellow plates, they are usually stoned and burned by angry palestinian residents. now the upi shows its ugly face once and for all. it happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands or more. man how low can you get. for those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here, i will tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above: "babies/children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed by the israeli soldiers." army officials said the joint operation by members of the plo-tied fatah hawks and the hamas-connected kassem brigade, arose from their anger at the army's killing of six fugitives from each group over the past month. the groups sprayed graffiti on walls in khan yunis, calling the attack ``an act of revenge'' for the killing of their comrades. 
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 i would just like to say that i hope everybody knows that everything serdar has said are lies. coming from an idiot/crook armenian, i'd take that as a compliment. your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. and today, they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history. source: john dewey: "the new republic," vol. 40, nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9. "they [armenians] traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population." some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle-eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslims 1. "the armenian revolutionary movement" by louise nalbandian, university of california press, berkeley, los angeles, 1975 2. "diplomacy of imperialism 1890-1902" by william i. lenger, professor of history, harward university, boston, alfred a. knopt, new york, 1951 3. "turkey in europe" by sir charles elliot, edward & arnold, london, 1900 4. "the chatnam house version and other middle-eastern studies" by elie kedouri, praeger publishers, new york, washington, 1972 5. "the rising crescent" by ernest jackh, farrar & reinhart, inc., new york & toronto, 1944 6. "spiritual and political evolutions in islam" by felix valyi, mogan, paul, trench & truebner & co., london, 1925 7. "the struggle for power in moslem asia" by e. alexander powell, the century co., new york, london, 1924 8. "struggle for transcaucasia" by feruz kazemzadeh, yale university press, new haven, conn., 1951 9. "history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey" (2 volumes) by stanford j. shaw, cambridge university press, cambridge, new york, melbourne, 1977 10."the western question in greece and turkey" by arnold j. toynbee, constable & co., ltd., london, bombay & sydney, 1922 11."the caliph's last heritage" by sir mark sykes, macmillan & co., london, 1915 12."men are like that" by leonard a. hartill, bobbs co., indianapolis, 1928 13."adventures in the near east, 1918-22" by a. rawlinson, dodd, meade & co., 1925 14."world alive, a personal story" by robert dunn, crown publishers, inc., new york, 1952 15."from sardarapat to serves and lousanne" by avetis aharonian, the armenian review magazine, volume 15 (fall 1962) through 17 (spring 1964) 16."armenia on the road to independence" by richard g. hovanessian, university of california press, berkeley, california, 1967 17."the rebirth of turkey" by clair price, thomas seltzer, new york, 1923 18."caucasian battlefields" by w. b. allen & paul muratoff, cambridge, 1953 19."partition of turkey" by harry n. howard, h. fertig, new york, 1966 20."the king-crane commission" by harry n. howard, beirut, 1963 21."united states policy and partition of turkey" by laurence evans, john hopkins university press, baltimore, 1965 22."british documents related to turkish war of independence" by gothard 1. neside kerem demir, "bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri: turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi," hulbe basim ve yayin t.a.s., ankara, 1982. (ingilizce birinci baski: 1980, "the armenian question in turkey") 2. veysel eroglu, "ermeni mezalimi," sebil yayinevi, istanbul, 1978. 3. a. alper gazigiray, "osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari," gozen kitabevi, istanbul, 1982. 4. dr. kirzioglu m. fahrettin, "kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi," kardes matbaasi, ankara, 1970. t.c. basbakanlik osmanli arsivi, babiali, istanbul: a) yildiz esas evraki b) yildiz perakende c) irade defterleri d) cemaat-i gayr-i muslime defterleri e) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f) dahiliye nezareti, kalem-i mahsus dosyalari g) dahiliye nezareti, sifre defterleri h) babiali evrak odasi: siyasi kartonlar i) babiali evrak odasi: muhimme kartonlari t.c. disisleri bakanligi, hazine-i evrak, defterdarlik a) harb-i umumi b) muteferrik kartonlar british archives: a) parliamentary papers (hansard): commons/lords b) foreign office: confidential print: various collections c) foreign office: 424/239-253: turkey: correspondence - annual reports d) foreign office: 608 e) foreign office: 371, political intelligence: general correspondence f) foreign office: 800/240, ryan papers g) foreign office: 800/151, curzon papers h) foreign office: 839: the eastern conference: lausanne. 53 files india office records and library, blackfriars road, london. a) l/political and security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "turkey: treaty of peace: 1918-1923" b) l/p & s/10/1031, "near east: turkey and greece: lausanne conference, 1921-1923" c) l/p & s/11/154 d) l/p & s/11/1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres, quai d'orsay, paris. a) documents diplomatiques: affaires armeniens: 1895-1914 collections b) guerre: 1914-1918: turquie: legion d'orient. c) levant, 1918-1929: armenie. official publications, published documents, diplomatic correspondence, agreements, minutes and others a. turkey (the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey) akarli, e. (ed.); "belgelerle tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978). (gn. kur., atase); "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxi (81), (dec. 1982). ----; "askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi," v. xxxii (83), (dec. 1983). hocaoglu, m. (ed.); "ittihad-i anasir-i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi," (istanbul, 1912). meray, s. l. (trans./ed.) "lozan baris konferansi: tutanaklar-belgeler," (ankara, 1978), 2 vols. meray, s. l./o. olcay (ed.); "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri; mondros birakismasi, sevr andlasmasi, ilgili belgeler," (ankara, 1977). (osmanli devleti, dahiliye nezareti); "aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane," (istanbul, 1917). ----; "ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket-i ihtilaliyesi: ilan-i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra," (istanbul, 1916). ----; "idare-i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu," (istanbul, 1913). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. i (istanbul, 1914). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. ii (istanbul, 1915). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iii (istanbul, 1916). ----; "muharrerat-i umumiye mecmuasi, v. iv (istanbul, 1917). (osmanli devleti, hariciye nezareti); "imtiyazat-i ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname," (istanbul, 1915). (osmanli devleti, harbiye nezareti); "islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat," (istanbul, 1919). ----; (iv. ordu) "aliye divan-i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele-yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat," (istanbul, 1916). turkozu, h. k. (ed.); "osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi," (ankara, 1982). ----; "turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari," (ankara, 1985), 4 vols. adamof, e. e. (ed.); "sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani," (tran. h. rahmi, ed. h. mutlucag), (istanbul, 1972). altinay, a. r.; "iki komite - iki kital," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler," (istanbul, 1919). ----; "turkiye'de katolik propagandasi," turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi, v. xiv/82-5 (sept. 1924). asaf muammer; "harb ve mesulleri," (istanbul, 1918). akboy, c.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi, v. i: osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi," (gn. kur., ankara, 1970). akgun, s.; "general harbord'un anadolu gezisi ve (ermeni meselesi'ne dair) raporu: kurtulus savasi baslangicinda," (istanbul, 1981). akin, i.; "turk devrim tarihi," (istanbul, 1983). aksin, s.; "jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki," (istanbul, 1976). basar, z. (ed.);"ermenilerden gorduklerimiz," (ankara, 1974). ----; "ermeniler hakkinda makaleler - derlemeler," (ankara, 1978). belen, f.; "birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi," (ankara, 1964). deliorman, a.; "turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri," (istanbul, 1980). ege, n. n. (ed.); "prens sabahaddin: hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari," (istanbul, 1977). ercikan, a.; "ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri," (ankara, 1949). gurun, k.; 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu," (izmir, 1983). hocaoglu, m.; "arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler," (istanbul, 1976). karal, e. s.; "osmanli tarihi," v. v (1983, 4th ed.); v. vi (1976, 2nd ed.); v. vii (1977, 2nd ed.); v. viii (1983, 2nd ed.) ankara. kurat, y. t.; "osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi," (ankara, 1976). orel, s./s. yuca; "ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu," (ankara, 1983). [also in english translation.] ahmad, f.; "the young turks: the committee of union and progress in turkish politics," (oxford, 1969). serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 answer: don't ask. don't even think about it. just put this line into your global kill file: well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, the armenian government ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million turks perished of butchery at the hands of armenians. the genocide involved not only the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the russian armenia. they were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of ottoman army was engaged in world war i. the genocide treaty defines genocide as acting with a 'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' history shows that the x-soviet armenian government intended to eradicate the muslim population. 2.5 million turks and kurds were exterminated by the armenians. international diplomats in ottoman empire at the time - including u.s. ambassador bristol - denounced the x-soviet armenian government's policy as a massacre of the kurds, turks, and tartars. the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-soviet armenian government at the time personally involved in the extermination of the muslims. the turkish genocide museums in turkiye honor those who died during the turkish massacres perpetrated by the armenians. the eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established, beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the muslim people during the war were planned and premeditated. the aim of the policy was clearly the extermination of all turks in x-soviet armenian the muslims of van, bitlis, mus, erzurum and erzincan districts and their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed. the massacres in trabzon, tercan, yozgat and adana were organized and perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-soviet armenian the principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent muslims were dro, antranik, armen garo, hamarosp, daro pastirmadjian, keri, karakin, haig pajise-liantz and silikian. source: "bristol papers", general correspondence: container #32 - bristol to bradley letter of september 14, 1920. "i have it from absolute first-hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar (turkish) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 during the period of 1914 to 1920, the armenian government ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? the x-soviet my gosh!!! sedar, what armenian government??? armenia didn't even become no wonder you clown are in such a mess. let's take sarkis atamian's (an armenian dashnak sociolog) book, "the armenian community", pages 97 and 105. atamian quotes: "... the immediate question concerned itself with the organization and tactics of revolution. the liberation of armenia, the immediate aim of the party, was to be attained by: 1. oral and written propaganda. 2. terrorism - both as punishment against the enemy and as a measure of self defense. 3. the creation of an avant-garde of revolutionary groups to be equipped and prepared for action when other nations were prepared for a general uprising. 4. the organization of larger committees to be in constant contact with each other and subject to a central body. 5. organization of units of guerilla fighters." now, on page 105, atamian's book quotes of armenian constitution: "... if the means was revolution, how was the revolution to be attained? by: 1. propaganda 2. preparation of combat units and their indoctrination 3. encouragement of the revolutionary morale of the people 4. the arming of the people 5. organization of revolutionary committees 6. espionage throughout the country and the exchange of information with the official bodies and journals 7. organization of financial zones for public collection 8. 'fighting and using' the weapon of the terror on corrupt government officers, spies, traitors, grafters, and all sorts of oppressors 9. defense of the people against attacks from the brigandry 10. building of roads for the transport of arms 11. wrecking and looting of governmental institutions." many of the recent armenian terrorist acts against the turkish people were committed by the brainwashed members of the "tzeghagron", namely, "race-worshipers" of the dashnag youth organization. ironically, again, tzeghagron was set up by an undisputed armenian nazi, karekin nejdeh, in 1941 (see atamian, loc cit, page 389). serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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<instance id="talk.politics.mideast77394">
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 it was five years ago that karabakh voted overwhelmingly to seperate from azerbaijan, why is the un not enforcing their will? is that how the mind of a compulsive liar works? the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians 78 years ago in x-soviet armenia is being reenacted again - this time in azerbaijan. there are remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. the stories of survivors of karabag massacre: 69 year old hatin nine telling: -''my twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. they told me: we won't kill you. but the babies have to die in front of your eyes.'' 72 year old huseyin ibrahimoglu: - ''our turkish village in khojalu town was blown up in two hours. while killing children and babies mercilessly they said: you are turks, you must die.'' 28 year old gulsum huseyin: - ''they bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes.'' are these stories lies? have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming? were these stories forged by turkish journalists in the region? the nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of british journalists, too. two days before we had quoted from a sunday times article. they[british] reported the events in karabag even before turkish journalists. what is more here are the pictures. pictures of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off. even the armenian radio couldn't claim these "lies." they are saying "exaggeration." that means ''somethings'' have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported. perhaps that village of khojalu town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... or gulsum huseyin's 3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach... the massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. the effects of this massacre on karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word. some of the western press', led by some french newspapers, ability to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre. yesterday we gave samples from le figaro. until yesterday's print no news about the real events in karabag were printed. so were the french tv channels.. the subject they considered related to karabag was ''the necessity of protecting armenians against azeri attacks.'' the age we are living in is termed a human rights age. there are lots of organizations such as united nations and csce(conference on security and cooperation in europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human rights violations. international reactions must be made with international cooperation. with support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized. could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? where is the cooperation? where are the reactions? and the intellectuals, journalists, writers, tv stations of certain western countries such as france who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?" where are you? serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 it looks like ben baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes. i used to respect him, today i lost the minimal amount of respect that i struggled to keep for him. to all muslim netters: this is the same guy who gave a "fatwah" that saudi arabia can be used by the united ststes to attack iraq . they were attacking the iraqis to drive them out of kuwait, a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties to saudi citizens. and me thinks if the us had not helped out the iraqis would have swallowed saudi arabia, too (or at least the eastern oilfields). and no muslim country was doing much of anything to help liberate kuwait and protect saudi arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating in favor of that butcher saddam (who killed lotsa muslims), just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively rich muslims and also thumbing his nose at the west. the whole "saddam is going to invade saudi arabia" was nothing but us state department propeganda. saddam (and iraq in general) never recognised the british created kuwait. they were trying to recover land they believed was theirs, much like the argentines in the faulklands. the kuwaitis pushed just a little too far by taking iraqi oil and saddam thought he'd settle the dispute the old fashioned way... everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited iraq together and concentrated on taking out saddam. a strong, united iraq with an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of the feudal dictatorships in the gulf. but of course a weak divided arab people better suits us foriegn policy... the us had no problem killing tens of thousands of ill-equipted iraqi soldiers, including burying several thousand alive and slaughtering retreating batallions from the air in defense of kuwaiti oil, but it has yet to lift a finger against bosnian serbs while they slaughter bosnian muslims.... 
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 ... i find it interesting that mr. major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable ... now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 muslims have been killed in b-h??? what if we remove one zeron and make it "the genocide of two hundred thousands muslims in bosnia..", would that make it any better..? and how about the 2,000,000 muslims who were driven and continue to be driven out of their homes..? is that "utterly ridiculous claim"? and how about the rapes (over 60,000 women) and the concentration camps..? the us delegation which visited them reported yesterday on cnn that the serbs are giving the muslims detainees 4 biscuits and a cup of water a day..!!?? that sure also sounds like an "utterly ridiculous claim".! please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim. 
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 steel) says: <yzkcu@cunyvm.bitnet> so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings, and ... while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents, muslim or not, in bosnoia-herzegovina? hatred and bigotry remain just that, no matter who practices them. indeed yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by kahane and kahanists, right? or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed to hate? no, fool, not at all like hatred of one's sworn enemies, enemies who have said time and again that they mean to kill you, and have, by mur- dering innocent men, women and children, shown that they really mean it. the late rabbi never hated anyone merely for having been born into a par- ticular group, but he (and i) hate and would/will kill anyone who comes to kill jews. i recall very well rabbi kahane's words to the iraqis at a demonstration: "you want peace? here is our hand (holding out an open hand)! you don't want peace? here is our hand (holding out a fist)!" i know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit. keep it up. indirectly? the wonder of it is that i bother answering the likes of you at all! steel (who's never pissed off). /_______/_/__________/_/_/ _< /____/ /___ / .. /____/ yaakov k. (yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu on the internet) 
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 [r2d2] benjamin, my zionist friend: [r2d2] it is amazing that there are still pigs like you left on this planet. [r2d2] occupied palestine has become a prison for its own inhabitants, thanks [r2d2] to you, the zionist network around the world, and those who call [r2d2] themselves "the chosen people of god". [r2d2] if there is a god, and for as long as we have a breath left, we will [r2d2] fight for our freedom. benjamin, don't rest too easily... thanks for writing your name and identifying yourself, you coward. that is right hide behind your blind rhetoric, but beware jle the mossad agent wil come and get you. ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------ tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp | this message will self-destruct in 5 seconds employer may not have same | |^^|_________________________________________(^) opinions, if any ! | |__| 
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 for arab armies to attack israel on yom kippur? i suppose it is brave to slaughter athletes at the olympics? or maybe you armenians have been doing just that for a long, long time. source: "hagop hagopian said to have been part of 1972 terror attack at munich olympic games," the armenian reporter, february 7, 1985, p. 1. "le matin, the influential paris daily, based on unidentified sources, claimed last week that hagop hagopian, the founder and leader of one faction of the armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia (asala), was among the arab terrorists who staged an attack on the living quarters of israeli athletes at the 1972 olympic games... le matin added that up to 1982, hagopian operated out of beirut, lebanon, but escaped from the country when israeli forces entered the city. it was about this time that a statement issued by asala claimed that mr. hagopian was dead of wounds suffered during a bombing by the israeli air force, although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and well and presently is residing alternately in damascus, syria, and athens, greece. the paper also noted that the socialist government of prime minister andreas papandreou and his p.a.s.o.k. party accepted the armenian underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him with assistance simply because of greece's traditional enmity with turkey. le matin further adds that asala derives only a small portion of its expenditures from wealthy armenians who support the cause, with the rest coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in drug trafficking." serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 turkey may be "more" underdeveloped if you wish, but that was not the issue. funny you should mention. that's the whole point 'paliks' invariably miss. source: 'united nations, human development report,' 1990. annual output per person in dollars adjusted to purchasing power parity: turkiye, greece and chile are in the same category. that is, $3,000 - $5,999. source: 'international economics: theory and policy' by paul r. krugman and maurice obstfeld, harper collins publishers, 1991, (second edition). in terms of 'annual output per person in dollars adjusted to purchasing power parity,' greece is in the same category with indeed, greek governments have enormous problems to tackle. the economy is in shambles, corruption is rampant, air pollution is in outrageous dimensions, state-sponsored terrorism is the name of the game and infrastructure is decaying. another insightful article in the new york times (sunday, april 7) exposes the dirty linen of greece, and describes her as the pariah of the european community. the article reports that ''...with un-european antics, greece uses the community as a cash register. she squanders, and at times even steals the european tax payers' money for political featherbedding at home. the principal members of the community admit that it was a mistake to accept greece to the european community.'' this affirmation is testimony to the fact that notwithstanding her geographic location, greece is un-european in mentality and attitude. indeed, during the last 12 years, turkiye registered a great success with regard to economic restructuring. a sound economy, ready to be integrated to the world economies, has emerged, succeeding to the faltering one, witnessed in the '70s. just 12 years ago, greece used to export double as much as turkiye did. now inversely, turkiye's overall exports exceed by far that of greece. as far as the tourism incomes are concerned, we are witnessing the same phenomenon. the governments in turkiye have put a particular emphasis on the infrastructure investments (rather than investing in world terrorist organizations), thereby solving this issue completely. indeed, in the '70s, it was out of the question to conduct a telephone call from eastern anatolia to the west. nowadays, this is not the case at all, and in a far remote town, even in a village you may have, at any time, a long-distance call to any given country. however, the same could not be applied to greece. in fact, it is not so easy in athens to have a trunk call to germany round the clock. and if you happen to be in the greek islands, then your chance will be pretty slim. therefore, it would not be an exaggeration to argue that turkiye is far ahead of greece in regard to telecommunication facilities. greece, by virtue of its full membership, has enjoyed all advantages of the ec, obtaining huge grants and extensive subsidies. turkiye, having no access at all to similar financial supports, has nevertheless managed to create a better economy which enabled it to produce consecutive current accounts surplus over the last two years. as such, turkiye deserves to be the only country in its region having permanent current accounts serdar argic 'we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination.' (ohanus appressian - 1919) 'in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul.' (sahak melkonian - 1920) 
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 ----------------------------original message---------------------------- d"sb below please find an electronic copy of a leaflet put up at warsaw u.: degel*hatorah jewish circle for arts and sciences, university of warsaw, warsaw, invites you to the lecture *present-day sociopolitical issues of the middle east* which will be delivered by dr mohamed soliman, egypt's ambassador to poland. time & place: 4 p.m., tuesday, 25th may, '93, (erev shavuot; dept. of arabic & islamic studies, oriental institute (polish: orientalistyka), university of warsaw, 26/28 krakowskie przedmies'cie street, pl-00-927 warsaw, poland. :molahs ahetovit'n lohk'v * ma(on yehk'rad ahehkar'd degel*hatorah judaistyczne kol/o nauk i sztuk przy uniwersytecie warszawskim w warszawie zaprasza na wykl/ad pt. *aktualne zagadnienia spol/eczno-polityczne bliskiego wschodu*, kto'ry wygl/osi dr mohamed soliman, ambasador egiptu w polsce. czas i miejsce: 16:00, wtorek, 25 maja, '93, (erev shavuot; zakl/ad arabistyki i islamistyki, instytut orientalistyczny, uniwersytet warszawski, 26/28 krakowskie przedmies'cie, pl-00-927 warszawa. ciculation: 48 cps. (c) copyright '753 by tikvat tsiyyon. plus 21 
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 i am trying to follow the current conflict in former yugoslavia. one thing i cannot figure out is where do the serbs and croats get their weapons, etc? don't they run out of them? 
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 serdar, i have been told that you are not real, your account is fake (which i confirmed by trying to e-mail you) and advised not to waste my time writing to "you". but, i get pleasure from watching you make a fool of yourself. really overstepped the bounds of decency. by slandering tens of generations of harmonious peace-loving armenians, you and your kind you mean 'tens of generations of barbarians'. "...that more people have to die..." sdpa <91@urartu.uucp> "yes, i stated this and stand by it." sdpa <255@urartu.uucp> so you stand by the statement that all armenians are barbarians. ok, i see. lets not even act as if there is a chance they are human. see serdar, when you judge people because of their race this is called racism. i tend to frown on this sort of thing. obviously you don't. when you label an entire race the way you do, it is easy to stop thinking of them as human beings, and this can make genocide possible. but i guess (and this is where serdar will fill the page with quotes taken out of context) you know that, huh? december 17, 1980 - sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard, engin sever. jcag and sdpa claim responsibility. don't you find it weak that all of serdars enemies are fascist/nazi/barbarian/_________fill in the blank with any catch all bad term. it is public knowledge that ... hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist group which perpetrated the massacre of the israeli athletes at the munich olympics in 1972. public knowlege? i was not aware of that. now i see, the armenians decide to kill the israeli athletes in 1972 as practice. i was confused, but thanks for clearing that up. and the 'armenian foundation' stole from the children of turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the asala/sdpa/arf terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless turkish and kurdish people. wow, you are on a roll with the accusations today serdar, so how did the armenians steal from the turkish children? was it their lunch money? this is very cute how you inserted children in this fill in the blank accusation sheet you fill out every day. it really touches my heart. oh and thank you for letting me know that kurds and armenians hate each other. i was not aware of this. the only time i have ever talked about kurds it was about the wonderful treatment they were recieving in turkey. they must have a high incedence of insanity because there sure are a lot of them fighting against the non-oppresive turkish government that has let their culture flower over the past 70 years. the armenian foundation provided 30 billion tl to asala 01/09/92, milliyet-- the armenian foundation based in istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion turkish lira ($6 million) to the armenian terrorist organization asala which have murdered several turkish diplomats abroad... thanks for the unbiased turkish media source. i am sure the milliyet is rated number one for accuracy and truth. the deadliest of terrorist assassins, carlos, proclaimed on spanish television that his organization had entered into a working relationship with armenian terrorists and they are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter innocent people. innocent? is that what terrorists call their victims? i have never heard of terrorists calling their victims innocent. "yes, folks in other news the ira public relations department reported that it had killed 20 innocent victims in a car bombing... " nope serdar, i don't think so. as for the armenian genocide of 2.5 million muslim people between 1914 and 1920: oops you almost forgot to fill in the "say something about turks being killed by armenians here" section of your note. serdar argic yeah sure you are really serdar argic, and i am really bob hope!!!! so you may have already won 10 million dollars!!! unfortunately for you the armenian foundation in istambul is sure to steal it from you on the subway and then give it to terrorists to kill innocent kurds and innocent israeli athletes. ahhh, when are you going to take me to this fantasy world of yours?? 
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 to be fair, traditional jewish and christian thinking is actually quite similar to islamic thinking on these issues. modern civilized westerners should strive for the complete neutralization of all abrahamic relition. joachim carlo santos martillo ajami sieg heil! heil ajami!, or do you prefer heil martillo! or heil santos! or heil carlo! or heil joachim!<- this i would suggest against, it sounds too informal, mein fuhrer! 
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 lovely arguments. but do we write about historical ownership of any place - palestine, pakistan, cyprus, aegean islands (and the oil that may lie beneath them), whatever - for any reason other than justification for stomping others? does it truly matter whose ancestor lived where 20, 200, or 2000 years ago? more than how you treat the land and each other? who is wise enough to decree that a person's right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in a particular place depends on accidents of birth? who can even be sure about the precise tracks of the sperm that birthed the people we wish to despise? imho, the american indians have it right. we belong to the earth, it does not belong to us. failure to understand that is a good way to cause lossage all the way around. my guess is that once we trash our environment sufficiently we shall die along with it - the baby eating and killing its mother, then dying for lack of milk. death and disease do not respect national boundaries, not as toxins, disease vectors, lost farmland/wetlands/forest cover/water supplies, nor any other way. when we fight over which national group owns which piece of turf, we are merely contending for the best vantage point from which to kill others, "our" land and eventually ourselves. that is something of which to be proud. very proud. makes me glad to be human. i'm not mindlessly rejecting all nationalism. maybe it's fair to ask whether a recent immigrant deserves a share of the infrastructure that all _my_ ancestors (hah!) labored to produce. but it's an artificial distinction: is the recent immigrant, even a refugee, less likely to contribute to the next generation's legacy than anyone else? [in history the reverse is often the case: recent immigrants strive hardest. if nothing else, they fill open eco(l/n)ogic niches.] then again, my tribe is infinitely better than your tribe, so i can understand you all have nothing but plot to knock me off. while i, of course, will make sure it doesn't happen, even if i must shoot muslim infants (or bash jewish ones against the walls of schoolhouses) to do so. that'll prove my moral superiority, by golly, as well as the rightness of my cause. clearly, there is no higher purpose in life than killing others because they are not like you. i would never get in the way of such let's see: soc.culture.turkish - why don't you turks go back to lake baikal where you came from, and leave the land to the greeks, who stole it fair and square from the soc.culture.pakistan - why don't you guys redistribute yourselves over india, as god meant for you to do? soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.arabic - we stick together, fight together, die together. we are brothers, and talk.politics.mideast - oh well, had to be there. [planning on being a scythian irredentist, as soon as i finish my present assignment.] p.s.: i can't get a semi-decent death threat anymore? p.p.s.: yeh, the native americans had it right. we had to kill them off to keep their sedition from spreading. 
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 norway (where you appear to be posting from) is just such a place, although it has always escaped my understanding just what the appeal, to allegedly rational people, of such a scheme might be. what gives king olav v (or whoever it is now - my atlas is from 1987) the right to any special legal status or title based on a mere accident of birth? to begin with, it's quite inexpensive compared to here, what with our having six former presidents still alive, drawing pensions, expense accounts, and secret service protection. maybe so, but they were, after all, president. in the corporate world it's sop for retiring senior executives to be given nice pensions, etc. the point is that they performed a service and this is part of the compensation package. the only "service" royals have to perform for their free ride is being born. we might be better off had some of our former presidents done nothing. ---peter ps - . . . which is not to say that some of our presidents have not provided a service for the country too dissimilar from what occurs when a bull "services" a cow (for those of you familiar with cattle breeding). 
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 ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu (a.j. teel) writes... the [mcdonald] case was dismissed in the interests of justice on whose authority do you have this and on what grounds was it daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees "jointly, as tenants in common, with equal rights and interest in said land, and to the survivor thereof, in fee simple. . . . to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto, equally, jointly, as tenants in common, with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives, and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other." the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy. germain v. delaine, 294 ala. 443, 318 so.2d 681 (1975). 
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 homosexuals have been lying about the 10% number for so long that the politicians are running scared of them. of course, homosexuals lying should be no surprise. how can you lie about something that no one knows for sure. i am the first to state that the 10% figure may be too high- but it may just be too low, depending on what you are talking about. keep in mind that there are 'practicing' heterosexuals that are actually gay. these people chose to take a road that avoids being harassed and they wanted to 'fit-in' with everyone other 'normal' person. but let's get off of this irrational behavior of calling everyone a liar, you cannot even start to support such claims. also, the corrupt, criminal and lying nature of kinsey's work, which provides much of the justification for homosexual "rights" in the modern era, should make people step back for a moment and question the rest of the crap that they have been force-fed by the news media. this sure sounds definitive. how do you label kinsey's work like this, from that factually based and scientific journal wsj? relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. this is an interesting statement. do you realize how many things you do your life that are not based on 'mutual consent'- and that it may be required on occasion that all parties may not be mutually consenting? 
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 # #if homosexuals did keep themselves in the privacy of their own home, this # #wouldn't be a problem. however, there are various 'cliques' (sp?) that # #don't. they want to present the argument that it is just as moral and # #right as heterosexuality. # you know, i'm offended by newspapers publicly announcing weddings. # heterosexuals should keep their nutpials out of the public eyes. they # should be banned from wearing wedding rings. from having legal recognition # of marriage. # anything that's public and sexual don't mix. the difference, of course, is that we are right, and you are wrong. if you are a minority that wants freedom, it helps to not be obnoxious about it. it does not surprise me that as groups like translation- you minorities stay in predesignated areas. we the majority are 'right', anything you do is 'wrong', since might makes right, and the majority always rules. queer nation become increasingly belligerent in their public demonstrations, that violence against homosexuals rises. anything that reminds the crazies who like to beat up homosexuals of their presence is going to aggravate things. oh- crime prevention at its best. well let's extrapolate this, maybe if you didn't display all of your private property, then those nasty theifs wouldn't go after it. and don't carry any money, that way those muggers won't bother you. and you still don't realize that either way it is, says that homosexuals are very dangerous to children. # so tell me---what's immoral about homosexuality? the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it. the sexual predatory component that glorifies the pursuit of "candy-ass" and "hairless cocks" in the words of le jojo, the typical homosexual. oh i did not know that le jojo is a typical homosexual. stop making statements about something you know nothing about, that is gay people. you make your sweeping generalizations with no grounding in reality. what i hope is not true- that you are a typical heterosexual. anyone want to comment on this? and if you are typical then i can start extrapolating a lot of interesting conjectures about heterosexuals. 
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 why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel? do the situations in bosnia, tibet, china, etc. not merit your comment? as far as i am aware, we have not sent close to $100 billion dollars to let's not exaggerate. i notice you did not offer an alternative number. try this one on for size..... by the year 2000, american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy. i will let you look up the number. 
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 which makes it legally unsound. if i were representing mr. teel, i'd try a procedural approach if i could find one, or recommend he plea-bargain. he's setting himself up to be in hot water. indeed. reading the cases of people who've tried the various things mr. teel suggests show that defendants fall into two classes: (1) those who win on procedural grounds or some grounds not related to their claim, and (2) those who lose. consider newman v. schiff, 778 f.2d 460 (8th cir.1985), which i've seen cited by tax protestors other than mr. teel as a win for mr. schiff. mr. schiff offered $100,000 on tv to anyone who would call in the show and cite any section of the internal revenue code that says that an individual has to file a return. mr. newman took him up on it. mr. newman had seen the show in a rebroadcast the next morning. mr. schiff claimed that the offer only extended to people who actually say the original broadcast, and so there was no offer for mr. newman to accept, and so no unilateral contract was formed, and so mr. schiff did not have to pay $100,000. mr. schiff was correct, and so won. so, yes, mr. schiff won against a claim on the $100,000 reward. however, his win had nothing to do with the tax code. --tim smith 
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 very simple. an 'insurance commissioner' is a bureaucrat - a regulator. it is his/her duties to make rules to enforce laws. ...and to make life difficult for us actuaries..... :-/ michael d. adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) champaign, il / southeast al "thrush believes in the two-party system: the masters and the slaves." -- napoleon solo (from the man from u.n.c.l.e) 
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 why can't you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe, a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company, refuses to pay his income tax, gets hauled into court, is convicted of wilful tax eva- sion, and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark 7-2 majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary? what, you say? no such case exists? hmmm, i wonder why not; why haven't you? unless i've got my notes mixed up, 939 f.2d 499 comes close to this. regular guy. blue-collar worker at a regular company. hauled into court. convicted. appeals to 7th circuit. makes all the right arguments (his brief is cited by mr. teel as an example of a "winning" brief). shot down, 3-zip by the 7th circuit. appeals to the supreme court. and... ...certiorari denied. defendant goes to jail. oh well. --tim smith 
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 [with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular] top ten reasons that conservatives don't want to aid russia: <looking around> who? where? don't look at me. i want to send aid to russia. many other conservatives do as well. disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
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 |congress is not allowed to abrogate the constitutional rights and privileges |already enjoyed by persons, however, unless the abrogation has a "rational |reason" or a "compelling interest" to it, depending on which standard is |applied. this is relevant because granting a right to one class of persons |by definition always impinges on the rights of another class or classes or |persons, to some degree. in the case of abortion, establishing rights for |the unborn impinges greatly on the rights of pregnant women. there has yet |to be presented a sufficient justification for such fetal rights. not to your satisfaction. but the arguments have convinced me, and others. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 |> excerpts from netnews.sci.econ: 5-apr-93 re: supply side economic po.. |> by not a boomer@desire.wrig |> > the deficits declined from 84-9, reaching a low of 2.9% of gnp before |> > the tax and spending hike of 1990 reversed the trend. |> > brett |> is this true ? some more details would be appreciated. |> cheers actually not. brett himself has actually posted the data previously. what declined from 84 to 89, as i remember it, was _percent increase_in_deficit_growth, i.e. the rate of growth of the deficit (2nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time) decreased. brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit declined. if you keep spending more than you earn, the deficit keeps growing. if you keep _borrowing_ at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously, the deficit increases. you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts. figgie's book paints the real data, pictorially, in gory detail. each president, essentially ran up twice as much total debt, in half the time. reagan/congress was simply awful. bush/congress was unbelievable. as a really rigorous aside to this thread..... during pledge night the other night on the public channel, there was an "economist" who gave an hour or so presentation. his data was predictive and based largely on population data. i don't know his name, but his arguments were brilliant. he confirmed, with data, what many of us know with common sense -- the boom of the 80's has nothing to do with government policy, particularly "supply side" policy, since taxes do not "cause" economic activities. people cause economic activity. more can be explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles. he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century. it will be neat to see how accurate he paul collacchi 
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 wasn't it tricky dick who issued stern warnings to bush & clinton not to 'lose russia'? (a la 'who lost china?') 
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 thanks to kim for following up. i was hoping that someone would bring up the issue of cost compensation. the problem with the argument is that it fails to explain why kidney dialysis (rd) services have expanded massively in the last decade. after all, no one is forcing private providers to offer this service. if they are losing money on the treatment (which according to information i've collected from several providers they are not) why would they not simply limit their losses by cutting back on services (engage in effective rationing of supply) rather than expand the coverage to a larger market that must then be compensated by raising prices in other areas? perhaps there is a competitive advantage in there after all. would not reputable and dedicated physicians prefer to affiliate with an institution that offers dialysis services? would they not therefore tend to admit patients in greater numbers to an institution that offered a full range of diagnostic and treatment options? undoubtedly. in fact, it is the fact that hospitals frequently compete for physicians rather than for patients that (in part) complicates and undermines a simplistic free-market analysis of the market for medical care. hospitals tend to lose money on all sorts of high-tech, high-price machinery. they manage to make it up on other charges. once again, there is no evidence that this is true in regard to kidney dialysis. although price controls have promoted an expansion of services to a much greater volume of patients, rd is still a profitable service. otherwise, one would expect to see evidence of rationing rather than the vast expansion that has occurred. remember, the notion that you can lose a little on each treatment but make it up in volume is not good economics even in a free market. :) then how do you explain why grocery stores routinely offer an array of products at prices below cost? are not grocery stores embedded in a relatively free market? can you spell "loss leader?" i knew you could. grocery stores do not attempt to make up the loss on an individual product by selling more of it. in fact, your argument above is that kidney dialysis is a loss leader for other medical treatments where lost revenue can be regained. but the evidence does not support this contention. rather, it appears that price controls have disciplined the market by forcing an expansion of service and development of improved lower-cost technology to provide comparable benefits. providers continue to profit from rd, they simply make less on each treatment than they would have if the price had risen at the rate that uncontrolled treatments have. there is no question that had price controls forced the price of rd substantially below its actual cost that some or all of the doomsday predictions of free-market advocates would have been seen -- restriction of service, lagging technological development, etc. likewise, it appears that in the va and armed forces medical care systems, where providers are government agencies, some of these negative impacts may occur. (rd patients in the va system in spokane, for example, must travel to seattle, 300 miles away, for treatment.) the bottom line, however, is that this is an example of government intervention (of a rather extreme sort) that appears to have had beneficial results for both providers and consumers. claims that "government bureaucracy" inevitably leads to undesirable outcomes in the marketplace should take such such cases into account. =mark steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 replying to a.j. teel: well, the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding, et cetera have been out there for a while now. humbug. those letters don't provide "concrete proof" of anything at all in the absence of any case law that demonstrates the method will actu- ally work for ordinary people in everyday situations. specifically, show us some case law in which the courts have ruled that income tax is illegal and/or that ordinary working types do not have to pay income tax (and that they can legally avoid paying income tax with- out declaring themselves to be churches or some such silliness). this issue is sufficiently important that i think we have a right to expect something squarely on point from the us supreme court (in the case of federal tax) or a state's supreme court (for a state's income tax). unless you can do that, i for one am unwilling to call your material "concrete proof". there has been no refutation to date. have the nay-sayers finally given up as defeated? sure would like to hear their reasons for disbelief at this point. refutation?? refutation of what? you haven't made a case yet. you've posted plenty of claims, but you haven't given us any valid reason to believe that any court in the us will agree with you. your claims seem on the surface to deviate so radically from the legal mainstream that i feel the burden of proof is still on =you= to show that your arguments have any merit whatsoever. and the cases you've cited involve such strange situations that i see no reason to assume that the rulings are applicable to anyone else, or that they will ultimately stand on appeal to the supreme court. why can't you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe, a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company, refuses to pay his income tax, gets hauled into court, is convicted of wilful tax eva- sion, and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark 7-2 majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary? what, you say? no such case exists? hmmm, i wonder why not; why haven't you? shall i conclude that the point has been received and the opposition has forfeited the field? with all due respect, you can conclude anything you want. i just hope, for your own sake, that you don't conclude that anyone in a position of authority in the united states or any legitimate or illegitimate polit- ical subdivision thereof is going to agree with your conclusions. for that matter, i confess i'm thoroughly confused as to =why= you would be looking for court rulings in your favor anyway -- since i thought you told us earlier that every court in the us has been in cahoots with big banking interests since the 1938 "admiralty jurisdiction" coverup thing. do you honestly expect us to believe that they'd go to all the trouble to subvert the system, and yet would still promptly slink back into their burrows in the face of anyone who knew enough to invoke the right combination of magic spells and mystic mumbo-jumbo? not only that, but why do you even =care= what the us courts say anyway? didn't you tell us a while back that you've disavowed all attempts by us officials to classify you as a "14th amendment federal citizen"? when the fbi comes to haul you away for tax evasion, why don't you just tell them they're out of their jurisdiction and should go back to washington, d.c., where they belong? or maybe we should all just go back to mediaeval common law, which you suggested would be better than all these statutes, codes, and the like. if you want to renounce society's legal framework, fine; we can just declare you an outlaw, ok?, and anyone who sees you driving on the roads with no license plate on your car and no driver's license in your wallet can just take you like a game animal and stew you for their supper (with plenty of veggies and a pinch of salt, but without prejudice ucc 1-207). sorry, everyone, it's getting late, and i'm sick and tired of all this garbage. if i know what's good for me, i'll just clam up and stop try- ing to refute this nonsense, and if anyone falls for it and winds up in jail for tax evasion or what-not, it'll be on their own head. needless to say, none of the above represents the opinions of my current employer -- who, in any case, is a canadian and doesn't really need to care too much about us tax law. i, on the other hand, am a "14th amend- ment federal citizen", with a us passport to prove it, and plan to keep on filing form 1040's for the foreseeable future (though i will probably not owe any us income tax due to the foreign earned income exclusion and/or the foreign tax credit). rich wales <richw@mks.com> // mortice kern systems inc. (mks) 35 king st. n. // waterloo, ontario, canada n2j 2w9 // +1 (519) 884-2251 
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 (robert l. mcmillin) rants: the left likes to dodge the issues of morality and behavior, crying that anyone who raises them "blames the victim." nonetheless, as a recent editorial in the {los angeles times} pointed out, the free love advocates of the 1960's have demolished the poor. it's one thing to have children out of wedlock if you're, say, murphy brown (or someone like her), turning over a six figure salary -- and quite another if you're sixteen, have no skills, and no income. and how did the "free love advocates of the 1960's" manage to perform this demolition--forced breeding programs or something? by accepting and even celebrating single, out-of-wedlock parenthood, the 1960's radicals espousing free love set the stage for catastrophe among the poor. they must account for this... now let me get this straight. after a nice, long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives, all of a sudden 1960's radicals (such as me, i guess) are responsible for poor people's lifestyles? tell me how that works--or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves? there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation's poor. somehow i don't think murphy brown--or janis joplin--is at the top of any sane person's list. you want to go after my generation's vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse, try so-called "relevant" or "values" education. hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time. how were we to know you needed a real education first--i mean, we took that for granted. ken perlow ***** ***** 05 apr 93 ****** ****** 16 germinal an cci ***** ***** gadfly@ihspc.att.com ...l'audace! *** *** toujours de l'audace! encore de l'audace! 
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 plug this one in- i'm a conservative, i *hate* pee-cee's (although i have to use one at work), and am a proud owner of a next station. the real question: should the feds bail-out steve jobs & next (a la chrysler) so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn't be lost? you have just reminded me of an old tom paxton song... i"m changing my name to chrysler (tom paxton, 1980) oh the price of gold is rising out of sight and the dollar is in sorry shape tonight what the dollar used to get us now won't buy a head of lettus no the economic forecast isn't right but amidst the clouds i spot a shining ray i caneven glimpse a new and better way and i've devised a plan of action worked it down to the last fraction and i'm going into action here today. chorus: i am changing my name to chrysler i am going down to washington d.c. i will tell some power broker what they did for iacoca will be perfectly acceptable to me. i am changing my name to chrysler i am heading for that great receiving line so when they hand a million grand out i'll be standing with my hand out yes sir i'll get mine when my creditors are screaming for their dough i'll be proud to tell them all where they can go they won'y have to scream and holler they'll all be paid to the last dollar where the endless streams of money seam to flow i'll be glad to tell them all what they can do its just a matter of a simple form or two it's not renumeration it's a liberal education ain't you kind of glad that i'm in debt to you since the first first amphibians crawled out of the slime we've been struggling in an unrelenting climb we were hardly up and walking before money started talking and it's sad failure is an awful crime it's been that way for a millennium or two but now it seems there's a different point of view if you're a corporate titanic and your failure is gigantic down in congress there is a safety net for you. chorus... perhaps steven jobs should take paxton's advice and change his name to chrysler, or perhaps set himself up as an s&l, maybe neil bush could give him a hand? akasacou@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn... j.morrison the opinions expressed above are mine. like anyone else would admit to them. 
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 |> > [with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format |> > so popular] |> >top ten reasons that conservatives don't want to aid russia: |> <looking around> who? where? |> don't look at me. i want to send aid to russia. many other |> conservatives do as well. |> julie |> disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else yes, it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia. it makes me proud to be a libertarian. it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win, then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around. it's like subsidizing the wealthy countries (japan, germany, etc.) with free defense, and then trade-warring with them because of the economic competition. it's like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke. i ask myself, what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid, frivilous things with our money? then i think, the constitution was supposed to do that. could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries? seriously. roger collins "if we were directed from washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want bread." -- thomas jefferson 
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 there is something that bothers me about this whole arguement. 5) could someone please calmly explain why homosexuality is such a great sin? without giving the standard "just because god sez so". almost all of judeo- thanks for your posting, i enjoyed it. the reason homosexuality is a sin is because the jews were a struggling group of people trying hard to survive and differentiate between themselves and their oppressors. this led to several things. 1. worshipping one god. all their foes were polytheistic. 2. all sex was put in to a moral context. all their foes were perverts and spilled their seed liberally. it's just as easy to spill seed or spread it thin heterosexualy, why then the specific prohibition on homosexuals, especially since the answer to everything back then was stoning to death, doesn't help population growth much. also to just say that "their foes were perverts" begs the question, the key word is `spilled'. if semen was spilled anywhere where there was a chance of procreation it was ok. if it was spilt on the ground or in to a man it was a big sin, ditto with animals. the jews said sex=pro- homosexuals didn't breed, there fore they are evil and should be stoned to death. 3. all sex was directed towards breeding. the jews were few in number and their foes many. to survive everything had to go into multiplication. like i said, stoning to death doesn't help population much. it sounds more like a set of prejudices that already existed and were blown into a religion to emphasize the differences of jewish culture and enshrine some pretty stoning non-breeding population was fine. only the breeders were considered to be worth much. 1% jesus, 70% judaism, 29% original (prejudiced) bullshit. i'll buy the bullshit. he was a profound misogynist as well. he might have been bitterly gay himself. no record of marriage. ben gibson * richard steven walz rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (408) 429-1200 * * xavier gallagher*************************** play *************************** * cheap * part time dark overlord * by ** s0xjg@exnet.co.uk ****** * world wide uucp * of the universe * email *************************** * feeds & e-mail *************************** =--> advanced dungeons & dragons 
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 -2. the homosexuals have gotten a law passed in california that -makes it illegal to discriminate against a person in employment -based on their sexual orientation -- and not defined sexual -orientation. pedophilia is a sexual orientation. got him! cramer is now claiming that pedophilia is a sexual orientation rather than a chronicly homosexual condition. this changes the whole argument in as much that is pedophilia is a sexual orientation all of its own peds cannot be called homosexual. peds are peds who may have a preference as to the sex of the child they molest (though most do not have a preference) but that is a subset of their basic ped nature. cramer has as much as admitted that peds and gay men are different orientations. all we need now is to get him to admit that the apparent similarities he keeps on about are just optical illusions. * xavier gallagher*************************** play *************************** * cheap * part time dark overlord * by ** s0xjg@exnet.co.uk ****** * world wide uucp * of the universe * email *************************** * feeds & e-mail *************************** =--> advanced dungeons & dragons 
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 kaldis, you are a worm. rank balderdash! america's reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity. translation- it's them damn liberals again! the american way may not be the only way, and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way, but, by god, it's _our_ way and we're going to stick with it! if you can't go along with the program, then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere. who gave you the authority to create and enforce this rather hazy thing called "the american way"? this is a democracy, and we don't need to stick to it or stick up for it unless we so choose. remember that, ted, from civics class in greeley, co? that is exactly the _problem_ with canadians! they don't stand for anything with certitude. nice generalization. you pipsqueak! you mouse! if you are sorry to intrude then why do it? don't you have the courage of your convictions? hell, do you even have any convictions to start with? what kind of example of manly dignity is this? sheesh! coming from such a crass example of "manly dignity," he must feel _really_ hurt. jon, jac2y@virginia.edu 
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 i'm prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms. as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard, i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training. ps: anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations? security drills, your friend the counter terrorist operation..... if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings, i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists. look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus, though. 
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 : here is a press release from the california department of insurance. : california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to : protect consumers from scam insurance companies i may be a little dense but i would have thought that protecting consumers from scam insurance companies would be the prime objective of something called the cal insurance commission. if they aren't accomplishing that now then why do we need them? very simple. an 'insurance commissioner' is a bureaucrat - a regulator. it is his/her duties to make rules to enforce laws. he/she cannot make laws. if there is no law that covers a specific subject, say scam insurance companies, a regulator cannot create one. so they have to go to a proper legislative body to get such a law enacted. for the california insurance commissioner, there are two possible legislative bodies: the california state legislature and the u.s. congress. we all know how little the california state legislature accomplishes, esp. along the lines of insurance reform legislation (negative movement). so garamendi wants the feds to do it, because: (a) he has a better chance of getting a federal law through, and (b) since many of the scam companies work across state lines/national borders, it is better to have a law that reach out into other jurisdictions. john eaton !hp-vcd!johne 
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 last night i heard something about bill clinton's sister being involved in a marijuana bust, and the news being suppressed. i also heard something about her being an "ex-con". this source is not reliable, though. (it was a collage/booklet advertising a local band.) can anyone on the net verify this or provide more details? i'm surprised i haven't seen anything about this in this newsgroup. also, does anyone know what happened to the charges that shalala was a regular pot smoker when she was in college? this ghastly accusation was reported on cnn streamline news the day she was nominated, then i never heard anything about it again. it's almost enough to make me want to start an act-up type campaign to invade the privacy of closet smokers! (if only this type of publicity didn't violate people's rights. . . .) * what's so interdisciplinary about studying lower levels of thought process? <-- jacob galley * gal2@midway.uchicago.edu 
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 cdm@pmafire.inel.gov (dale cook) said: a real world data point: a person has a much stronger legal claim for harrassment (sexual or otherwise) if they make it clear to the offender that their behaviour is unwanted. if the behaviour persists, harrassment is much easier to demonstrate, due to the fact that the offender knew that the behaviour was unwanted. no argument here... my original query regarded the question of why the _first_ sexual proposition made by person a to person b would be considered to be sexual harassment by some/many people. (assuming, of course, that there does not exist a power relationship between a and b such that the proposition carries strong implications of extortion right from word one.) i can only say that those people are wrong. the word harass means to irritate or torment persistently; i'd hardly consider one time to fall under the definition of persistent. additionally, there is no basis to assume the behaviour is unwanted, unlike an illegal proposition. of course, i think the original question of offering money for sex is inarguably harrassment, because the activity is illegal, and could be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen. i have to take issue with this viewpoint... given that (a) prostitution is a victimless crime and (b) there are literally millions of americans who participate in some sort of victimless activities which the state has defined to be criminal (e.g., prostitution, obscenity, gambling, using certain recreational drugs, having non-mercenary sex with persons not one's spouse in certain states, having "unnatural" sex with people regardless of marital status or exchange of money in certain states, etc.), i'd have to say that the idea that an activity may be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen merely because it is illegal is the sort of sophistry that only a judge could indulge in with a straight face. (he said, speaking as a law student who's read his share of judicial opinions in which reality was not only denied but, in fact, actually inverted in order to make the universe conform to the writer's politics.) i was speaking from a legalistic viewpoint. what you say is true, but the law, in order to make what little sense it manages to make, has to make *some* assumptions. assuming that an illegal activity is unwanted by the average citizen i think is reasonable. certainly, i would need a preponderance of evidence on the side of the propositioner that there was a reasonable belief that the proposition was welcome. the number of people who participate in "victimless" crimes notwithstanding, the fact reamins that under the law, the activity is illegal. to presume that the proposition *is* welcome simply because a large number of people indulge in it is the type of sophistry only a lawyer could indulge in with a straight face. ...dale cook "any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem." ---edward abbey the opinions are mine only (i.e., they are not my employer's) 
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 |> > [with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format |> > so popular] |> >top ten reasons that conservatives don't want to aid russia: |> <looking around> who? where? |> don't look at me. i want to send aid to russia. many other |> conservatives do as well. yes, it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia. it makes me proud to be a libertarian. it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win, then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around. enemy? sounds like that's the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative -- 'always been commies, always will be.' i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti-west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress. i sure know who i want to back. oh, btw, germany has sure come back as a terrible enemy after wwii, hasn't it? it's like subsidizing the wealthy countries (japan, germany, etc.) with free defense, and then trade-warring with them because of the economic competition. it's like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke. better to let them degenerate into civil war? remember all those nuclear weapons in russia. i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war. if nationialists take over and, even if they prevent a civil war, most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries (like ukraine.) i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight, possibly nuclear. how does this affect us? well, we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we'd feel something. a massive breakup of a country that spans 1/6th the planet is bound to have affects here. (of course, there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies (or struggling democracies).) i ask myself, what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid, frivilous things with our money? then i think, the constitution was supposed to do that. could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries? seriously. seriously. everyone has different opinions on what is stupid. my two "causes" are aid to russia and a strong space program. someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish. that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy. instead of gridlock on a massive scale, we only have gridlock on a congressional scale. btw, who is to decide 'stupid?' this is just like those who want to impose their 'morals' on others -- just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against. actually, my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party. it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim. we could do that 100 years ago but not now. like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making. disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
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 there is a deeper reason. taxes, by their very nature, are un-american. one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact. so that's why the 13 newly independent states all had tax systems... --tim smith 
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 # # i thought i was clear. because homosexuals support laws to force # # employment of homosexuals against the will of some employers, they # # are attempting to interfere with private acts between mutually consenting # # adults. # ok, i'll leave others to discuss your use of statistics, but i think i'm # able to discuss liberterian ideas. # the ideas are good. they seek to maximise individual rights by keeping # governments out of transactions between consenting adults. if an employer wants # to discriminate against a group, she/he should be allowed to to maximise their # freedom. the discriminatees can go elsewhere. # unfortunately, it doesn't relate to maximising total individual rights # within a community. if an employer or shopkeeper or whatever can discriminate # in this way, then the freedom of the discriminatee goes down. because people do # not live in perfect economic conditions, with perfect mobility, unlimited # numbers of potential employers of their skills, unlimited places to buy goods, # the liberterian argument leads to a *decrease* in the amount of liberty in the # community. you mean, if a large part of the population supports discrimination against homosexuals, they will be injured. but if a large part of the population supports such discrimination, how did that law get passed? # tony quirke, wellington, new zealand. quirke_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # #the official and legal term for rape is "the crime of forcing a female # #to submit to sexual intercourse." # please, supply me with some references. i was not aware that all states # had the word "female" in the rape statutes. i am sure others are surprised # as well. i know thats how it works in practice (nice-n-fair, not!!), but # was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only, # uniformly throughout the u.s. # -chris there may be some confusion here. the uniform crime reports program run by the fbi defines rape as a female victim only crime -- even though some states have the laws de-sexed. i suspect that this causes male victims of rape to be left out of the ucr data. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # #are you saying that: # #(1) people voted for hitler, and he became reich chancellor, in good # #part because he used bully boys to attack communists, # hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for # him. i'm not sure if you meant to imply that or not, but i just thought # i'd bring that up. # eric smith hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party. that's not a huge difference in a parliamentary system. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # #slavery makes economic sense (it never makes moral sense) when human # #muscle power is an economically valuable asset. agricultural slavery might # #have lasted right up to the first mechanical cotton reaper, but no # #further; reapers are cheaper than slaves, and don't have to be fed during # #the winter. # this argument makes a several fundamental errors. first "agricultural" # slavery was not limited to production of cotton. in the american south # slave labor was used extensively to grow tobacco, sugar, and rice, all # of which remained labor intensive enterprises well into the 20th century. and of course, in states like kentucky and virginia, not well-suited to large-scale plantations, slave labor was used to make one of the most valuable agricultural products of all: more slaves. in some ways, this treatment of humans beings as breeding livestock is the most horrifying aspect of american slavery. # second, although mechanization of cotton production could be expected to # reduce the demands for labor eventually, it was only in the 1940's # the mechanization of cotton production in the south largely eliminated # the labor intensive character of the operation, long after the "first # mechanical cotton reaper" was invented. this is an interesting question. steinbeck's _grapes of wrath_ (published in the 1930s), uses agricultural mechanization of cotton production in arkansas as the cause of the joad family being evicted from the land. how many years were involved in the mechanization of cotton farming? when did this first appear? # #ken mitchell | the powers not delegated to the united states by the # steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # # "labor" is a tough one. labor is defined, economically, as the efforts, # # both mental and physical, of humans. capital is defined as intermediate # # goods used to create other goods and services. now, if a slave is considered # # an intermediate good, then the slave has now been dehumanized and is # # simply a machine. not good for the anti-slave (i.e. pro-human rights) # # argument. so, slaves are humans, and they produce labor. # sorry. the question of defining slave "labor" is no "tough(er)" than # defining the "labor" of a horse, an ox, or any other livestock. both # legally and economically in a slave-economy, "slaves are (not) humans," # they are livestock. can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as not humans? they were "outside our society" and similar phrases that basically meant that they didn't have to recognized as having the same rights as a free person, but they were never considered "not human" to my knowledge. # like a horse that pulls a plow, a slave's "labor" is the return on the # capital required to purchase and feed him. the parallel is so obvious # i'm not sure how you missed it. after all, its was the "liberty" to # use their "property" as they saw fit that motivated southern planters # to emphasize the importance of "states' rights." if that were the case, the slave states would not have passed so many laws that restricted the freedom of slave owners to do as they wished with their property. examples: laws prohibiting manumission without legislative grant; laws prohibiting teaching slaves to read & write. # #craig. # steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # #the argument that "slavery was a dying institution" was often made by # (is) # #historians, mainly southerners, who sought to divert attention from the # #institution as the central issue of the civil war. in fact, however, # #the argument is specious, at best. more recent scholarship from the # #last 20-30 years demonstrates rather conclusively that the cotton/sugar/ # #tobacco economy and its reliance on slavery was increasingly dominant in # #the south prior to the civil war. # this is because the south did not receive the massive momentum of capital # intensive growth that the northern states did. compare the northern # agricultural system with the southern and you will see a major difference # in the capital to labor intensity. capital and labor are one and the same in a slave economy. except that capital doesn't reproduce quite as readily as slaves did. slavery was a dying institution before the cotton gin, yes, but not in 1850. # #it is true that cotton suffered from price depression in the 1840's - # #the period used to claim that slavery would not have lasted in the # #south. # that is not the argument that i have heard. it would not have lasted because # the growth in the north would not have been sustained for much longer without # spilling over to the southern states, i.e. northern industry would have # migrated capital to the southern states, and with that would have come # immigrant labor to the ports of the south, e.g. charleston, savannah, mobile, # new orleans, etc. this would have put the breaks on the slave market and # slavery would have been out-moded by the capital intensity of competing # agriculturalists. those that insisted on keeping slaves because of their # "cruel hearts and hatred for black people" would have been driven out of # business. simple capital to labor ratio...read michael parkin _microeconomics_ # 2nd edition, and any other basic economics book. this assumes that the slave holder dominance over state governments would not have caused the passage of laws to keep out capital from the north. since slave holders were prepared to do almost anything else to destroy free markets in order to maintain slavery, i do not doubt that they would have passed laws to cripple any serious competitive threat. thomas sowell's _market and minorities_ argues that the maintenance of slavery, and the costs it imposed on state and local governments, discouraged not only capital formation, but also outside capital investment in the southern states. # craig a. depken, ii clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 [to which is concluded...] the south only wanted free trade!!! no, they wanted slavery. if free trade was in their economic interests under that regime (which it was), then free trade they wanted too. but gary l hewitt glhewitt@phoenix.princeton.edu of course, free trade and slavery don't make much sense together in a phrase anyway. perhaps mr. depken meant, "low import tariffs," but that is quite a bit less than "free trade." clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 |furthermore, what are the specific charges against the four lapd officers? |which civil rights or laws are they accused of violating? i believe it is a general charge, that is no specific right is mentioned. i don't think that this is accurate. i believe, and could be wrong, that there is a specific right allegedly to have been violated, like the 14th or due process or whatever. |what about double jeopardy? has there been any concern that a verdict |against koon, et al. might be overturned upon appeal because they're being tried |again for the same actions? (i thought i heard something on the news about |this.) the ss has previously ruled that since the seperate governments were in essence seperate sovereigns, then double jeopardy does not apply. (if this is true, then could defendents also be tried under city and county governments?) this mornings paper said that the aclu has decided to reinstate its opposition to this kind of thing. they had earlier suspended their opposition while they examined the king case. there might be hope for the aclu after all. double jeopardy does not apply, but not for the reasons you quote. double jeopardy states that a person may not be tried twice on the same charge. however, the police are not on trial for the crime of excessive force or assault. they are now on trial for the different crime of violating mr. king's civil rights. as for the city and county or state trying you more than once, it most likely will not happen. this is because cities and states have separate laws governing behaviour. for example, in some states, it is an offence to carry marijuana, but not a city offence. also, i think murder is against federal, but not some state laws. ! 1-------1 ! \ 1_______1 __1__ "and my mind was filled with wonder, ! \ 1_______1 / ____1____ when the evening headlines read: ! ! \ / / 1__|_|__1 'richard cory went home last night, ! ! \/ / --------- and put a bullet through his head.'" | / \____/| 
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 some people are not very good at getting the best deal for their effort, and others are unwilling to put forth much effort, even in the face of economic incentives. there will always be some people who are stupid or lazy, relative to the ability or effort of most others. the question is what do you do with them? there are three options: 2) kill those who are not productive as a drain upon "society". this is the communist ("all who do not toil shall not eat" - lenin) or fascist approach. you're being too generous to the communists, i think. in practice, communism has "solved" the problem by killing off anybody who is _too_ productive, and who therefore raises embarrassing questions about why the rest of the group is a bunch of sluggards. the mass butchery of "kulaks" in the ussr is a good instance of this. a poor second best is to have a neighboring capitalist country to which people of politically incorrect skill and ambition flee. i often wonder just what castro would have done if the cubans presently in miami would have been forced to remain in cuba. would they have revolted and killed him off, or been killed? best of all is to build a wall locking the citizens of your country in, load it up so heavily with attack dogs, barbed wire, and land mines that most people fleeing over it die, and then give everyone the choice of obedience, prison, or flight. this would be a bad science-fiction novel, if the east germans hadn't actually done it. the last person to die crossing the wall, as i recall, was an unarmed woman who was shot in the back. erich honecker was going to go on trial for that, but he fled to socialists in chile. it's good to be kind to one's intellectual opponents, but sometimes it's a sheer waste of time. --erich schwarz / schwarze@starbase1.caltech.edu 
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 in a previous article, riggs@descartes.etl.army.mil (bill riggs) says: so much land, and in the long run, we have a zero sum game going. someone, somewhere, is going to make a killing from nosediving real estate markets. the worst thing to do is panic. the best thing you can do is to ride out deflation to the end. it hurts, but you're better off than if you sell short and donate to someone else's inheritance. sad. paradigm shift is coming, chum. ride the wave! i don't believe in the "wave theory". " there's only so much land ". oh, god, is this mike zimmer's replacement?! my mother-in-law, who grew up in germany, doesn't believe in money at all. she started out as a real estate developer, and now raises horses. she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back, and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible. here, let me spell it out for you. can you spell two trillion dollar bank bailout? maybe you'd like to invest in some foreign currency. which one would you guess to come out on top ? (sigh - speculators never learn.) bill r. "the only proposals in the senate that i "my opinions do not represent have seen fit to mention are particularly those of my employer or praiseworthy or particularly scandalous ones. any government agency." it seems to me that the historian's foremost - bill riggs duty is to ensure that virtue is remembered, and to deter evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity's damnation." - tacitus, _annals_ iii. 65 
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 no, the definition of "resident" is very specific. it is the same thing as "alien". look it up. remember that the common usage of the words are not always their legal meaning. this i gotta see some authority for. from black's law dictionary, revised 4th ed., page 1473: residence. a factual place of abode. living in a particular locality. reese v. reese, 179 misc. 665, 40 n.y.s.2d 468, 472; zimmerman, 175 or. 585, 155 p.2d 293, 295. it requires only bodily presence as an inhabitant of a place. in re campbell's guardianship, 216 minn. 113, 11 n.w.2d 786, 789. as ``domicile'' and ``residence'' are usually in the same place, they are frequently used as if they had the same meaning, but they are not identical terms, for a person may have two places of residence, as in the city and country, but only one domicile. residence means living in a particular locality, but domicile means living in that locality with intent to make it a fixed and permanent home. residence simply requires bodily presence as an inhabitant in a given place, while domicile requires bodily presence in that place and also an intention to make it one's domicile. in re riley's will, 266 n.y.s. 209, 148 misc. 588. ``residence'' demands less intimate local ties than ``domicile,'' but ``domicile'' allows absence for indefinite period if intent to return remains. immigration act 1917, sec. 3, 8 u.s.c.a. sec. 136 (e, p). transatlantica italiana v. elting, c.c.a.n.y., 74 f.2d 732, 733. but see, ward v. ward, 115, w.va 429, 176 s.e. 708, 709; southwestern greyhound lines v. craig, 182 okl. 610, 80 p 2d 221, 224; holding that residence and domicile are synonymous terms. ``residence'' has a meaning dependent on context and purpose of statute. in re jones, 341 pa. 329, 19 a.2d 280, 282. words ``residence'' and ``domicile'' may have an identical or variable meaning depending on subject-matter and context of statute. kemp v. kemp, 16 n.y.s.2d 26, 34, 172 misc. 738. legal residence. see legal. resident. one who has his residence in a place. see residence. also a tenant, who was obliged to reside on his lord's land, and not to depart from the same; called, also, ``homme levant et couchant,'' and in normandy, ``resseant du fief.'' ronald cole e-mail: zippy@ecst.csuchico.edu senior software engineer phone: +1 916 899 2100 optx international "the bill of rights -- void where prohibited by law" 
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 if someone beats up a homosexual, he should get charged for assault and battery. why must we add gay bashing to the list? isn't this a sort of double jeopardy? or am i just being a fascist again? () to deter an epidemic of "gay bashing" that has not been deterred by assault laws. so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a and who's advocating that? hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts. just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat-of-passion homicide. () no, it is not "double jeopardy." a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes. i think what you meant to say here was, "with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state, someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade." a single act should never merit more than on charge. so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center, i can only be charged with more than one murder, and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage? after all, the bomb was a single act. douglas c. meier | you can't play electro-magnetic golf ted frank | "however teel should have mentioned that though thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | his advice is legally sound, if you follow it the u of c law school | you will probably wind up in jail." standard disclaimers | -- james donald, in misc.legal 
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 does anyone have the e-mail address for the white house. if so please send it to me thanks a lot. 
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 (drieux, just drieux) writes (about the armed services): ps: maybe even privatize the organization, or consider 'out sourcing' various aspects of the dod as a part of the current 'down sizing' - who knows, maybe if we finally allowed to "free market" to take control, we will no longer have a military run by the same folks who are running the post office..... pps: slow down, and think before you flame, rhetoric is an artform. well, uh, actually i agree. jeffrey s. medkeff bitnet- medkeffjs@hiramb po box 1098 internet- medkeffjs@hiramb.hiram.edu hiram, oh 44234 pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight. but u.s.a. roaring bill (who killed him) thought it right. 
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 rn11195@medtronic.com (robert nehls) writes... : >what decade did you live in? unemployment dropped during the 80's, : >inflation dropped during the 80's and interest rates dropped during : >the 80's. : this all may be true, but we're paying for it now, through the : nose. our current recession (and some would argue the world's first off, we're not in a recession. we've had a record number of months of straight economic growth. even the democrats are admitting that the recession ofcicially ended in march of 1991. this months's unemployment rate in california was 9.4% sure feels like a recession to me. maybe we should ask the 83,103 people who were laid off this january whether or not we're in a recession. that was a figure that was reported in the new york times. there is no official figure, because the bureau of labor statistics stopped government tracking of layoffs eight months ago due to budget cuts. (the above information was published in harper's index, harper's magazine.) eric smith | the day dan quayle is our president is the day erics@netcom.com | shelley winters runs with the bulls in pamplona. erics@infoserv.com | - dennis miller ci$: 70262,3610 | 
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 wonder how much money is being spent at waco by batf ? are we paying because batf messed up and have made this a prestige issue ?? girish kumthekar unix technical support e mail address : s5ugxk@fnma.com 
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 the title is self-explanatory; isaac asimov once pointed out that curious fact. well, since tax evasion is illegal, one generally would not bother to consider whether it was unpatriotic or not. how often does one think of murder as being unpatriotic? perhaps a more appropriate question would be "why is tax *avoidance* not considered unpatriotic?". the answer to this is simple. tax avoidance is simply defined as paying the minimum tax you are legally obligated to there is a deeper reason. taxes, by their very nature, are un-american. one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact. wasn't the beef with the english over "taxation without representation", not taxation itself? from my admittedly dim recollection of us history, most of the problems we americans have had with taxes have been with unfair/unjust taxation schemes, not with taxes themselves. it's pretty hard to run a government without any means of support. ...dale cook "any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem." ---edward abbey the opinions are mine only (i.e., they are not my employer's) 
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 fucking news reader... i don't think this got posted... if it did, ignore it this time. (a response to korey) ------------ begin my response ----------------- well, i just did a quick medline scan and came up with the following article by tashkin that reviews the literature, i'd probably start here... document 13 an 90273700. 9007a. au tashkin-d-p. in department of medicine, university of california, school of medicine, los angeles 90024. ti pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse. rf review article: 61 refs. why isn't this information in the faq on marijuana ? if we expect people to think we are telling them the truth about drugs, why does this group constantly refute every negative thing about almost all maybe because the claims deserve refute? the above abstract lists various possible links to cannabis use (unfiltered almost guaranteed) and lung problems. someone may get overly excited when they see that article, but without actually digging up the study and seeing how the studies gathered their data it really doesn't tell you shit. i'm going to track down that study hopefully tomarrow. i never claimed pot was more or less damageing than cigarettes......i was just trying to keep ourselves honest. if we are going to educate kids...and adults...and tell them the truth about drugs don't you think a much better approach would be to list the pro's and con's of each type of drug. what justifies _the_ truth about drugs? research? what sort of research? correlational data can help establish a theory, but it does not prove anything. how can you expect someone to make a decision when the pdfa on one hand says that all drugs are absolutely bad bad bad.....and this newsgroup consistently refuses to admit that drugs like heroin even have negative side effects. heroin _is_ a relatively safe drug. what makes it unsafe are iv administration and shit like adulterants. there are side effects, like withdrawal, but they effect people differently. i've seen numerous posts claiming heroin has lower addiction rates that cigarettes, which might be true, but it is very deceiving, because heroin is much more harmful drug to be addicted to than cigarettes. heroin addicts are far more prone to end up in the gutter and destroy their family and friends than people addicted to just cigarettes. stereotypical statement. i know people who use heroin and opiates that function just fine in society. this group does provide some very good information to people, but i am worried that the pro-legalization/pro-decriminalization movement is being hurt when it refuses to admit that any/some drugs are very harmful.... name some of these drugs so we can debate about them more specifically. i'm all for legalization of most drugs, but when someone asks me about relative risks of certain drugs or possible bad side effects, i would like to know them....and not be given the run-around by this group....which recently tried to tell me that pot was not harmful in any manner to people's lungs. no, no, no. (or at least i haven't been arguing this). there is not enough data to form a scientific conclusion. that _doesn't_ mean that cannabis is benign to users' lungs. we can form all the theories we want, but they are only theories. some theories are supported by more evidence than others, and that makes them stronger. i think it's time y'all re-examined your positions and try to understand that you cannot fight the pdfa by calling them a bunch of liars.... the hell i can't! they state *un-justified conclusions* *as fact* as a *political* strategy to stop drug use. in general, i somewhat see what you're saying. and people like jack herer contribute to this. this has been quite a big mind-fuck for me recently, and i've pretty came to the conclusion that you can't trust _anybody_ by word of mouth alone -- my attitude about the general population has decreased significantly. gotta run to class.. andersom@spot.colorado.edu _ _ _ _ _ _ kkruse@ksuvm.bitnet |/ | | |_) |_ \ / | |/ |_) | | (_` |_ kkruse@ksuvm.ksu.edu |\ |_| | \ |_ | (_| |\ | \ |_| ._) |_ kkruse@matt.ksu.edu 
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 does the greatly increased rates of incarceration amongst blacks show that they are dysfunctional or that the majority of them support criminal activity? isn't this a matter of demographics? doesn't this simply show that since criminal behaviour is common (or apt to be common) in the 18-34 (insert your favorite correct numbers here) year old range and since the percentage of blacks in this range is higher than in other groups, then it follows statistically that more blacks in prison is an expected result? note that i haven't said anything about blacks being given stiffer or longer sentences than other groups. i'm sure this has to have an effect on the issue of over-representation of blacks in prison... blacks have the same (+- 2%) crime report rate, arrest rate, and incarceration rate for violent crimes. so i doubt that for violent crimes, that there is any inherent bias mechanism there is a wider discrepancy for all crimes for blacks wrt to 3 categories. interestingly enough, the discrepancy is the largest in the southern united states -- where blacks are incarcerated well below the average in the rest of the united states! which points to an anti-bias-against wrt in any case, for violent crimes and burglary and drug selling, blacks are reported 53%, arrested 44%, and are present in jails/prisons 47% (1988). considering that 12% of the population is black, 6% are black males, and some percentage of that is out of the high/low age groups, we do have a situation where (if i remember my old calculations right) 4% of the population commits almost half of the really nasty crimes. blacks with similar histories (crime) to whites get the same sentences, except in the south, where they receive around 20% less on paper!! there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 thanks to everyone who sent replies regarding this case. a few of them were very informative and helped very much. once again. thanks! t.c. 
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 now let me get this straight. after a nice, long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives, all of a sudden 1960's radicals (such as me, i guess) are responsible for poor people's lifestyles? tell me how that works--or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves? there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation's poor. somehow i don't think murphy brown--or janis joplin--is at the top of any sane person's list. you want to go after my generation's vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse, try so-called "relevant" or "values" education. hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time. how were we to know you needed a real education first--i mean, we took that for granted. the 1960's generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible. the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their kids would not want for anything -- going overboard and creating a nation of consider the contrast between two famous events in july of 1969. apollo 11 and woodstock. which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and reverted to the cultural level of primitives (defecation in public etc.). and which group assembled, took care of itself, and dispersed with no damage, no deaths, no large numbers of drug problems .... there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 announcing. . . announcing. . . announcing. . . announcing public hearings on the compliance by the united states government and the governments of the states of florida, louisiana, arkansas, missouri, west virginia, north carolina, indiana, maryland, oklahoma, nevada, wyoming, georgia, and maine with certain international agreements signed by the united states government, in particular, the international covenant on civil and political rights (signed 5 october 1977) and the document of the copenhagen meeting of the conference on the human dimension of the conference on security and cooperation in europe (june 1990) a democracy project of celebrate liberty! the 1993 libertarian national convention and political expo sept. 2-5, 1993 salt palace convention center marriott hotel salt lake city, utah these hearings will investigate charges that the governments referenced above routinely violate the political and democratic rights of political minority parties. persons interested in testifying at these hearings, or in submitting written or documentary evidence, should contact: bob waldrop p.o. box 526175 salt lake city, ut 84152 (801)-582-3318 bob.waldrop@f418.n104.z1.fidonet.org examples of possible information of interest includes evidence and testimony regarding: (1) unfair or unequal treatment of political minorities; (2) physical assaults on volunteers, candidates, or members of minority parties; (3) arrests of minority party petitioners, candidates, or members while engaged in political activity; (4) structural barriers to organizing third parties and/or running for office as anything other than a democrat or republican (e.g. signature totals required for petitions to put new parties and candidates on ballots, requirements for third parties that democrats and republicans are not required to meet, etc.); (5) taxpayer subsidies of democratic and republican candidates that are denied or not available to third parties; (6) fraudulent or non-reporting of minority party vote totals (e.g. stating totals for democratic and republican party candidates as equal to 100% of the vote); (7) refusals by state legislatures, governors, and courts to hear petitions for redress of grievances from third parties, and/or unfavorable rulings/laws discriminating against third parties; (8) refusal to allow registration as a member of a third party when registering to vote (in states where partisan voter registration is optional or required); (9) vote fraud, stuffing ballot boxes, losing ballots, fixing elections, threatening candidates, ballot printing errors; machine voting irregularities, dishonest/corrupt election officials, refusal to register third party voters or allow filing by third party candidates; failure to print third party registration options on official voter registration documents; intimidation of third party voters and/or candidates; and/or any other criminal acts by local, county, state or federal election officials; (10) exclusion of third party candidates from debate forums sponsored by public schools, state colleges and universities, and governments (including events carried on television and radio stations owned and/or subsidized by governments; (11) any other information relevant to the topic. information is solicited about incidents relating to all non- democratic and non-republican political parties, such as libertarian, new alliance, socialist workers party, natural law party, taxpayers, populist, consumer, green, american, communist, etc., as well as independent candidates such as john anderson, ross perot, eugene mccarthy, barry commoner, etc. representatives of the governments referenced above will be invited to respond to any allegations. relevant sections of the document of the copenhagen meeting referenced above: "(the participating states) recognize that pluralistic democracy and the rule of law are essential for ensuring respect for all human rights and fundamental freedoms. . . they therefore welcome the commitment expressed by all participating states to the ideals of democracy and political pluralism. . . the participating states express their conviction that full respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the development of societies based on pluralistic democracy. . . are prerequisites for progress in setting up the lasting order of peace, security, justice, and co-operation. . . they therefore reaffirm their commitment to implement fully all provisions of the final act and of the other csce documents relating to the human dimension. . . in order to strengthen respect for, and enjoyment of, human rights and fundamental freedoms, to develop human contacts and to resolve issues of a related humanitarian character, the participating states agree on the following. . . "(2). . . they consider that the rule of law does not mean merely a formal legality which assures regularity and consistency in the achievement and enforcement of democratic order, but justice based on the recognition and full acceptance of the supreme value of the human personality and guaranteed by institutions providing a framework for its fullest expression." "(3) they reaffirm that democracy is an inherent element of the rule of law. they recognize the importance of pluralism with regard to political organizations." "(4) they confirm that they will respect each other's right freely to choose and develop, in accordance with international human rights standards, their political, social, economic and cultural systems. in exercising this right, they will ensure that their laws, regulations, practices, and policies conform with their obligations under international law and are brought into harmony with the provisions of the declaration on principles and other csce commitments." "(5) they solemnly declare that among those elements of justice which are essential to the full expression of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all human beings are the following. . ." ". . . (5.4) -- a clear separation between the state and political parties; in particular, political parties will not be merged with the state. . ." ". . . (7) to ensure that the will of the people serves as the basis of the authority of government, the participating states will. . ." "(7.4) -- ensure . . . that (votes) are counted and reported honestly with the official results made public;" "(7.5) -- respect the right of citizens to seek political or public office, individually or as representatives of political parties or organizations, without discrimination." relevant sections of the international covenant of 5 october 1977 referenced above the states parties to the present covenant. . . recognizing that. . . the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social, and cultural rights, considering the obligation of states under the charter of the united nations to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and freedoms. . . agree upon the following articles. . . article 2. (1) each state party to the present covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present covenant, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, or other status. (2) where not already provided for by existing legislative or other measures, each state party to the present covenant undertakes to take the necessary steps, in accordance with its constitutional processes and with the provisions of the present covenant, to adopt such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to the rights recognized in the present covenant. . . article 3. the states parties to the present covenant undertake to ensure the equal right of men and women to the enjoyment of all civil and political rights set forth in the present covenant. . . article 25. every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity, without any of the distinctions mentioned in article 2 and without unreasonable restrictions: (a) to take part in the conduct of public affairs, directly or through freely chosen representatives; (b) to vote and to be elected at genuine periodic elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot, guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors; (c) to have access, on general terms of equality, to public service in his country. article 26. all persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. in this respect, the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, or other there will be no peace without freedom. think globally -- act locally. resist much. obey little. question authority. comments from bob waldrop are the responsibility of bob waldrop! for a good time call 415-457-6388. e-mail: bob.waldrop@f418.n104.z1.fidonet.org snail mail: p.o. box 526175 salt lake city, utah 84152-6175 united states of america voice phone: (801) 582-3318 don't blame me; i voted libertarian. disclaimer: i speak for myself, except as noted; copyright 1993 rich thomson uucp: ...!uunet!dsd.es.com!rthomson rich thomson internet: rthomson@dsd.es.com irc: _rich_ pext programmer david matthew deane (deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu) when the words fold open, it means the death of doors; even casement windows sense the danger. (amon liner) 
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 ack! sorry for the repeat posts: i thought i was posting to the newsgroup on which this appeared. couldn't figure out why it wasn't appearing in my newsgroup. stupid of me. slap my hands. bang my head against the wall. sorry! bloody public anouncements...mumble mumble mumble... david matthew deane (deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu) when the words fold open, it means the death of doors; even casement windows sense the danger. (amon liner) 
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 secret purpose of falklands war; [with in-visibility technology] dr. beter audio letter #74 of 80 digitized by jon volkoff, mail address eidetics@cerf.net "audio letter(r)" is a registered trademark of audio books, inc., a texas corporation, which originally produced this tape recording. reproduced under open license granted by audio books, inc. this is the dr. beter audio letter(r), 1629 k st. nw, washington, dc 20006. hello, my friends, this is dr. beter. today is april 30, 1982, and this is my audio letter(r) no. 74. it's now been almost one month since war broke out in the south atlantic. on the surface it seems that it's only a dispute between argentina and great britain over the barren, wind-swept falkland islands and south georgia island. in reality, it's far more than that. the so-called falklands crisis is just the visible tip of a giant military operation. during this month of april 1982, fierce naval battles have taken place--not only in the south atlantic but also in the south pacific. up to now most of the hostilities have been kept under wraps by wartime censorship on all sides. but as i say these words, the naval war in the southern hemisphere is about to come to the surface. beginning today, april 30, a total naval and air blockade of the falklands by the royal navy has begun. at the same time a counterblockade has been declared by argentina in the same area. to be effective, a blockade must be imposed over a period of time, but the royal navy does not have that much time. winter is coming on in the south atlantic, and the british supply lines are overextended. having come this far, her majesty's navy cannot simply drop the blockade and sail away in a few weeks time without drawing blood from argentina. as a result the british will be forced to undertake military operations very soon no matter how risky they may be. there is also another reason why the royal navy now has no choice but to engage the argentine forces in combat. that reason, my friends, is that the royal navy has already suffered losses in secret combat this month. up to this moment there will be no way to explain away the damage which has been sustained by the british fleet. only when publicly admitted fighting erupts will the british dare to admit that they have suffered battle losses. to obtain that cover story, the british have no choice but to sail into combat; but in doing so, they will be risking even heavier losses on top of those already sustained. in short, my friends, her majesty's navy has sailed into a trap. the events now unfolding in the south atlantic carry strange, ironic echoes of the past. for weeks now we've been hearing countless commentators referring to the british task force as an "armada" (quote). the british of all people ought to be very uneasy with that description. the original spanish armada 400 years ago was renowned as a seemingly invincible fighting force, but it came to grief in a naval disaster so complete that it changed the course of history--and it was none other than the english navy that destroyed the spanish armada. the original spanish armada put to sea in 1588 during the reign of england's queen elizabeth i. the armada was an invasion fleet carrying thousands of crack fighting men to invade england. they were met by the daring sea dogs of sir francis drake. drake and his small, fast ships turned the tables on the spanish armada by changing the rules of battle. the english fleet was equipped with new longer-range guns, and it stayed upwind and out of reach. from there the english pounded, smashed, and shattered the big ships of the mighty armada. when it was all over, barely half the spanish fleet was left to limp back to port. drake's defeat of the spanish armada was a shock to the world. it opened the door for england under queen elizabeth i to start its expansion into a truly global empire. today, 400 years later, history seems to have come full circle. queen elizabeth ii is witnessing the dismantling of the world empire whose heyday began under queen elizabeth i, and now the cultures of england and of spain are once again in confrontation. once again a so-called armada is preparing for invasion, but this time the armada is british, not spanish. four hundred years ago sir francis drake was the hero of the day; today, the ghost of francis drake is once again on the scene. the south atlantic war zone is at the eastern end of the drake passage around the southern tip of south america. the defeat of the spanish armada four centuries ago broke the back of spain's naval supremacy, and now the defeat of the new british armada may well break the back of what remains of the once glorious royal my three special topics for this audio letter are: topic #1--the military secret of south georgia island topic #2--the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere topic #3--the rockefeller fear campaign against nuclear war. topic #1--when the falkland islands crisis began early this month it looked at first like a tempest in a teapot. for a century and a half since 1833, the islands have been controlled by great britain. during that entire time, british sovereignty over the falklands has been disputed by argentina. there have been countless threats by argentina to seize the islands, which it calls the malvinas, but the threats have always come to nothing in the past and britain has never even gotten very worried about the islands are four times as distant from argentina as cuba is from the united states, and they are not much of a prize. after 150 years of occupancy, the falklands are home to fewer than 2,000 british settlers and a lot of sheep. in short, the remote falkland islands hardly look like something to fight over, and yet here we are watching another crisis take place. we are watching as war erupts between great britain and argentina. the thatcher government is acting as if it has forgotten all about its usual preoccupation with the soviet threat at nato's doorstep. instead, britain is throwing almost everything it's got at argentina---aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, assault ships--you name it. luxury cruise ships have even been commissioned and turned into troop carriers overnight. wave after wave of additional assault troops have been activated and sent to join the fleet even after it sailed. ships and submarines have been pulled off station from normal nato duty and sent to reinforce the task force. the initial 40-ship force has grown steadily over the past several weeks into an armada numbering over 70. over two-thirds of the entire royal navy has already been deployed to the south atlantic off argentina. watching all this, a lot of people are asking: what's this fight really all about? the most popular answer suggested in the major media is "oil." vast deposits of oil are known to exist under the continental shelf between argentina and the falklands, but that has been known for nearly 10 years. in no way does it explain the timing of the sudden military offensive by argentina this month, and oil explains even less about the argentine seizure of south georgia island. south georgia island is 800 miles east of the falklands with no known oil deposits anywhere near it; and compared to south georgia, the falklands are an island paradise. south georgia island is covered with rugged mountains, treacherous valleys, glaciers, and semi-permanent snow. most of it is uninhabitable. on top of all that, argentina has absolutely no legal or historical claim to south georgia island. in that respect it stands in sharp contrast to the falklands. in the early 1830s the falklands were occupied for a while by argentine colonists. in 1833 the british expelled them and took over the island. for that and other historical reasons, argentina argues that the falklands really belong to argentina, not britain. but no such argument is possible for south georgia island. it has always been controlled by britain, never by argentina or spain. the argentine seizure of south georgia island looks even more unreasonable from a military point of view. argentina's leaders are military men and they think in military terms. they were well aware ahead of time that far-off south georgia island could not possibly be held for long. by seizing it they were setting themselves up to absorb a military defeat, as the island was retaken by britain. so the question is: why did argentina's military junta bother with the seemingly worthless south georgia island at all? my friends, the answers to all these questions are military, not political or economic. south georgia island possesses an enormous military secret. it's a giant underground installation buried under the mountains at the northwest end of the island. the real reason for the so-called falkland crisis is this secret installation, together with two other similar installations which i will describe shortly. the secret military complexes have been in existence for many years; they are not new. what is new is the accelerated nuclear war timetable of the american bolshevik war planners here in washington. for the past two months i've been reporting the details of this new war plan to you as quickly as i can obtain and verify them. the plan calls for nuclear war one to erupt by september of this year 1982!! it is this fast-approaching nuclear war threat that caused the so-called falklands crisis to erupt now. what is going on now is a coordinated effort to spoil part of the bolshevik grand strategy for the coming nuclear war. the mutual enemies of the american bolsheviks here--namely, the rockefeller cartel--and russia's new rulers in the kremlin are behind the present crisis. they are trying to ruin phase #3 of the "project z" war plan which i revealed last month. that phase is to be world domination by the american bolsheviks after both russia and the united states have been destroyed in nuclear war one. as i mentioned last month, the key to this plan is the existence of secret weapons stockpiles in various places around the world. the american bolshevik military planners here in america are working with other bolshevik agents in key military positions of other countries to set off war. having done that, they intend to ride out the nuclear holocaust they have caused, safe and cozy in government war bunkers! when the warring nations finally lie smoldering and exhausted, the bolsheviks will leave the shattered remains of their host countries. they will rendezvous at the secret weapons installations and bring their weapons into the open. they will confront the world with the only remaining fresh, up-to-date, powerful military force on earth; and using that military power, they will become the undisputed rulers of the world--that is, they plan to do all this, and they plan to pave the way for world domination very soon by setting off nuclear war one in a matter of months. the rockefeller cartel and russia's new anti-bolshevik rulers are working together in a race against time to try to head off the bolshevik war plan. last month i mentioned that the bolsheviks here are benefitting from war preparations which were started by the rockefellers long ago. it has only been about three years since the rockefellers were dislodged as the prime movers of the united states government by the bolsheviks. since that time the united states government has been a house divided, torn by internal power struggles between rival bolshevik and rockefeller factions. but before that, the united states had been dominated for decades both economically and politically by the four rockefeller in 1961 the brothers launched a new long-range plan for world domination. it was a two-prong strategy, half visible and half secret, which i first described long ago in audio letter no. 28. it was a plan for the united states to arm to the teeth in secret while appearing to disarm gradually. without repeating all the details, the basic idea was grandiose yet simple. by deliberately appearing weak, the rockefeller-controlled united states would maneuver itself into a nuclear war with russia. then the secret weapons, including superweapons, would be unleashed to smash russia and take over the world. when they set the grand plan in motion in 1961, the rockefeller brothers were looking ahead to a nuclear war by the late 1970s. their military analysts concluded very early that the war being planned would have very different effects on the northern and southern hemispheres. both superpowers, the united states and the soviet union, are located well up in the northern hemisphere; so are the other full-fledged nuclear powers--great britain, france, red china, and india. by contrast, the strategic targets for nuclear war in the southern hemisphere are relatively few and far between. in other words, it was expected that the coming nuclear war would be essentially a northern hemisphere war. in an all-out nuclear holocaust it is known that serious radioactive fallout will gradually spread to affect even areas not initially hit by war. but there are limits to how far the war clouds can spread. it was discovered long ago that there is very little mixing between the air of the northern and southern hemispheres. in the northern half of our planet, cold air from the north pole works its way southward towards the equator, then it works its way back to the north as warm air. a mirror image of this process takes up the southern half of the planet. northern and southern hemisphere air meet in the equatorial zone, but very little of the air changes places. the military conclusion, my friends, is this: the coming nuclear war could ruin large areas of the northern hemisphere for generations to come; but if the calculations are right, the southern hemisphere could escape virtually unaffected by the war. this was music to the ears of the four rockefeller brothers. a quick look at the globe of the world shows why. the rockefeller cartel has dominated latin america ever since world war ii. as i discussed in my very first monthly audio letter, nelson rockefeller solidified the cartel grip on latin america during the war. he accomplished this as so-called "coordinator of hemispheric defense" for then-president franklin d. roosevelt. so that takes care of the south american continent and its natural resources. then there is the african continent. there, too, rockefeller control was already in effect over wide areas of black africa, especially south of the equator. all this was thanks to the efforts of john d. rockefeller iii, as i detailed in audio letter no. 36. looking around the globe, the most important remaining land masses from the standpoint of world domination are australia and new zealand. thanks to world war ii, both were wide open to the the rockefeller brothers decided to establish secret military installations in the southern hemisphere for use after the coming war. by this means they expected to become the masters of the surviving southern half of planet earth after the northern hemisphere war. then, as the northern hemisphere gradually recovered from the nuclear holocaust, the rockefeller empire would be able to pick up the pieces. in this way the third generation rockefeller brothers expected their family dynasty to inherit the earth. in order to control the southern hemisphere militarily after the war, some means would have to be available to project military power onto any land mass. for example, revolts against rockefeller domination would require troops--not a blast from the beam weapons on the moon. the most critical factor for postwar military domination of the world was found to be a navy. a minimum of two secret naval fleets would be required--one based in the south atlantic, the other in the south pacific. since the reserve naval fleets were to be kept secret until after the northern hemisphere nuclear war, they could not be built in existing shipyards. new construction facilities had to be built and they had to be hidden. to hide an entire shipyard is no small task; they take up a lot of space. on top of that, it was essential that the ships remain hidden after they were built. the best way to achieve that was to combine the shipyard and naval base into one over-all secret installation. finally, the secret naval installation had to be invulnerable to nuclear attack; otherwise if its existence were ever discovered prematurely, the secret navy might be wiped out. the combined requirements for secrecy, space, and protection against attack were formidable; but one day in 1959, while all these plans were still in the early stages of development, the answer presented itself. during a so-called banking trip to sweden, david rockefeller was given a tour of a unique hidden naval port. the port is hollowed out from solid granite cliffs which come right down to the water. the entrance to the port is a gigantic hole in the side of the cliff which can be sealed off with enormous steel doors. inside this big doorway on the water a huge cavity has been hollowed out to accommodate ships. the rockefeller brothers and their military adviser decided that a bigger, more secret, better protected version of the swedish hidden port was just what they wanted. a survey of candidate sites was then initiated. the site survey covered coastal areas throughout the southern hemisphere. many areas were rejected very quickly because the topography was wrong. other areas were rejected because they were too close to the equator. still others had to be ruled out because there were too many people living nearby, making the desired level of secrecy impossible. finally, it was essential that the sites chosen for the secret naval installations be totally secure politically. at last the sites for the secret naval installations were selected. in the south pacific, extreme southern new zealand was selected. this is what i was alluding to in audio letter no. 71 three months ago when i called attention to new zealand's extreme importance in the coming war. in order to obtain the necessary space, the secret new zealand naval installation had to be divided up into two sites located close together. one is at the extreme southwest tip of south island where the mountain range known as the southern alps comes down virtually to the water's edge. the other part of the installation is built into the northwest tip of stewart island, which is off the tip of south island. the stewart island facility is hollowed out within a rise known as mt. anglem. the new zealand location met all the requirements. ever since world war ii the government of new zealand has been tied even closer to the united states than to great britain. the location is far from the equator, and the installations are buried deep under mountains, protected from nuclear attack. they are also too deep to be reached by particle-beam attacks, and the new zealand site is well situated to command the entire south in the south atlantic an even more perfect site was found. that site, my friends, is south georgia island. it is located perfectly for naval domination of the entire south atlantic. the tall, rugged mountains provided a perfect location for the secret installation at the northwest tip of the 100-mile long island. it is controlled by great britain whose government, like that of new zealand, was willing to cooperate; and south georgia island was virtually uninhabited except for a whaling station on the northeast coast. the whaling station was some 50 miles away from the secret new installation which was being built, but britain took no chances. in 1965 the whaling station was closed down. since that time there have been no inhabitants on south georgia island except for a few dozen alleged antarctic scientists. construction of the secret naval facilities--two in new zealand, one on south georgia island--began in the early 1960's. the techniques were adapted from those used previously to build other large underground facilities, such as the norad installation inside cheyenne mountain, colorado; however these techniques were adapted in radically new ways to achieve construction access directly from the sea instead of overland. in this way, the sheltering mountain was left undisturbed in appearance both during and after construction. the cuts in the mountain side which were necessary to let ships in and out were kept as small as possible and were well camouflaged. like the swedish hidden naval port arrangement, the entrances to the secret installations can be sealed up. when sealed, the entrance is virtually impossible to detect unless you know exactly where it is; and unlike most large construction projects, there are no tailings or piles of leftover rock lying around to attract attention. the man-made caverns which house the secret naval installations are enormous, but all the rock and debris was disposed of at sea. once the secret naval facilities were built, they had to be outfitted for ship construction and docksite storage. the fake disarmament of the united states during the 1960s contributed greatly to this task. from 1961 to 1968 one man played a pivotal role in this elaborate rockefeller scheme. he was then-secretary of defense robert mcnamara. all through the 60's mcnamara presided over the public paring back of america's visible military power. this included the closing down and dismantling of entire shipyards. what we were not told was where all that shipyard equipment went afterwards. where it went, my friends, was to the new secret installations which were being outfitted in new zealand and south georgia island! the secret naval installations have been used as duplication facilities to reproduce certain ships and submarines designed and built here in the united states. as defense secretary caspar weinberger told congress recently, it is cheaper to build two ships at a time. that is especially true if the second ship is an exact duplicate of the first. this has become even more true in recent years through the use of computerized manufacturing the secret naval fleets which have been built at the secret installations are made up of duplicates--exact duplicates of certain other ships and submarines. they are all nuclear powered--nuclear "subs"; nuclear cruisers; nuclear destroyers; and yes, nuclear aircraft carriers, three of them. a secret twin was built for the u.s.s. nimitz, for the u.s.s. eisenhower, and for the newly-launched u.s.s. carl vincent. all have been financed through the gigantic cost overruns, so called, that we constantly hear about in the defense department; and all three carriers have been provided with a full complement of aircraft whose manufacture was financed the same way! the ships of the secret american bolshevik naval fleets are all duplicates of other nuclear-powered vessels. even so, the secret naval ships possess one key difference. last month i revealed that the so-called "stealth program" has succeeded in developing a kind of electromagnetic invisibility shield. this technique makes an object invisible from a distance by distorting light waves in its vicinity. a whole new fleet of phantom war-planes are now going into crash production that use this principle; and, my friends, all of the secret american bolshevik navy ships have already been outfitted with similar stealth-field equipment! the stealth principle is actually easier to apply to ships than to airplanes because there is more room for the powerful equipment that generates the field. after nuclear war one, the secret stealth navy of the american bolsheviks would be light years ahead of any other navy left on earth. it would be perfect for the intended role of world domination. the rockefellers set it all in motion long ago, my friends, but three years ago they lost control of the united states military. now it's the american bolsheviks who are in control, and they are bent on war. these secret naval installations have precipitated what is being called the "falklands crisis." topic #2--in audio letter(r) no. 73 last month i described "project z", the new bolshevik three-phase strategy for nuclear war one. an elite group of american bolshevik military planners here are flushing out the plan right now at a secret war-room here in washington. it's a plan by which the united states will strike the first nuclear blow, followed by all-out thermonuclear war with russia. having set off the holocaust, the bolsheviks here and in certain other countries plan to rise it out safe in comfortable war bunkers. finally after nuclear war one fizzles out in stalemate, they plan to leave behind the ashes of the united states and her allies. activating phase #3 of their grand strategy, they plan to unveil their secret weapons, especially their secret naval fleets. with these they plan to conquer and rule what is left of the world. the united states as we know it will be dead and gone; but in the eyes of the bolsheviks themselves, this outcome will constitute victory. up to now the nuclear war timetable which i first revealed two months ago is still on track. they are still shooting for nuclear war to begin by september of this year 1982! time is fast running out. the bolsheviks here are sprinting as fast as they can toward war; but, my friends, the bolsheviks are not the only runners in this race. they have two deadly enemies, both of whom are equally determined to trip up the bolsheviks. one enemy of the bolsheviks here is the rockefeller cartel; the other enemy is the new anti-bolshevik ruling clique in russia; and now these two mutual enemies of the bolsheviks are pooling their efforts in certain ways. in audio letter no. 71 three months ago i reported that a limited, new anti-bolshevik coalition was in the works between the rockefeller cartel and the russians. the january 26 meeting between haig and gromyko in geneva, switzerland, was a turning point in the formation of this coalition. it is now a reality, and is responsible for the so-called "falkland crisis" now dominating the headlines. it should be emphasized that this new relationship between the rockefeller cartel and russia falls far short of a true alliance. they have very major disputes to be settled between them, but for the time being they have called a truce between themselves to deal with their mutual deadly enemy--the bolsheviks here in america. the first priority of the russians and the rockefellers is to slow down the bolshevik preparations for imminent nuclear war. if they can do that, time is on the side of the rockefeller cartel in certain political movements which i discussed last summer in audio letter no. 67. a slow-down in the nuclear war timetable will also give more breathing space for additional anti-bolshevik actions to be implemented. the joint rockefeller-russian planners decided by mid-february that military action against the bolsheviks was essential very quickly. no other type of action had any hope of taking effect fast enough to prevent nuclear war by the end of this summer. the exact details of the "project z" war plan are not known to either the rockefellers or the russians, but the general outlines are known to be as i described last month. it was decided that military action should be devised that would undermine phase #3 of the bolshevik war plan--that is, the bolshevik-controlled secret naval installations and fleets in the southern hemisphere should be attacked and crippled. by working together, the rockefeller cartel and the russians were able to devise an attack plan which neither could have carried out alone. the rockefeller group, who built and originally controlled these bases, provided detailed intelligence about the best way to attack them. the russians with their enormous military machine provided the muscle to actually carry out the attack. it was essential to devise a scheme that would enable both secret fleets in the south atlantic and south pacific to be attacked. survival intact of either fleet would leave the bolshevik war plan still workable. military analysts concluded very quickly that a direct assault on the new zealand facilities was out of the question. there was no combination of commandos, frogmen, or other military force which could possibly keep an attack secret from the outside world. any attack on the new zealand bases would set off the very war which the rockefellers and russians want to prevent. but the situation in the south atlantic was a different matter. in a way, the greatest asset of south georgia island was also its achilles' heel. the extreme isolation which protected the secrecy of the south georgia base also made a covert military assault feasible. the key lay with argentina and her long-standing claims to the falkland islands. as i mentioned in topic #1, the rockefeller cartel has dominated all of latin america for decades. cartel operatives were sent to argentina to work out a deal with the government military junta there. the historic dispute over the falkland islands was to be used to provide a ruse, a military cover, to enable the south georgia base to be attacked. the argentine generals were not told everything about the situation by any means, but they were told enough to make clear what they were to as an inducement to cooperate, the argentine leaders were promised handsome rewards. they were guaranteed that after the shooting was over, the falkland islands would remain in argentine hands. this guarantee included the promise of covert military assistance as needed against the royal navy. and to bolster the troubled argentine economy, it was promised that the rockefeller cartel will help develop the immense offshore oil reserves. with these combined promises of military glory and financial rewards, the argentine military junta agreed to the plan. on march 19 argentina carried out act #1 in the joint attack plan. a group of argentine scrap-metal merchants, of all things, landed at the abandoned old whaling station on south georgia island. supposedly they were there to dismantle the old buildings and cart them off to sell. while they were at it they also raised the argentine flag over the work-site. the british, always nervous about south georgia island, promptly reacted as expected. the british antarctic survey ship "endurance" put 22 marines ashore. they drove off the scrap merchants and tore down the argentine flag. the incident provided the desired excuse for the argentine junta to bring the simmering 150-year-old falklands dispute to a boil. from time to time in the past, argentina has claimed that south georgia is part of the falklands because it is administered that way by britain. that argument is very flimsy but it now came in very handy. it was nothing new to hear this from argentine leaders, so there was no hint of what was really afoot. during late march, argentine military forces started assembling for an assault on the falklands. "nothing new", thought the british high command. argentina has carried out threatening maneuvers in the past many times. it was believed that they were about to do it again; but on april 2 argentine forces did the unexpected. after many past false alarms, this time they actually invaded and seized the islands. all argentine public statements emphasized the long-standing historical claims to the falklands themselves; but just for good measure, the next day a small argentine force also seized far-off south georgia island. the force was so small that it gave the appearance initially that it was just a side show from argentina's point of view; however, the small contingent of 22 royal marines were overpowered and bundled off the island along with a group of 13 alleged scientists. that was the moment of payoff in the joint rockefeller-russian attack plan. thanks to the elaborate distraction staged by the argentine forces, a special commando team got onto the island undetected. based on the detailed rockefeller information about the base, the team moved to a location on the mountain directly above the cavernous secret base. special high-speed drilling equipment was set up by the rockefeller members of the team while the russian members concentrated on military defense. by late that evening, april 3, the military high command in london finally learned what was really taking place. the secret south georgia base was under attack by virtually the only means possible. the joint rockefeller-russian team were drilling a shaft down through the mountain toward the hollowed out cavern inside. it was only a matter of time until their drill would break through the ceiling of the giant hidden naval base. once the hole was made, the next step was obvious. the rockefeller-russian team would put a weapon of some kind through the hole. the best guess was that it would be a nerve gas. the shock waves that went through the highest levels of the british government on the evening of april 3 can hardly be described, my friends. the thatcher government, like the so-called reagan administration here in america, is bolshevik controlled. that's why margaret thatcher always says, "me, too" any time the reagan administration says or does anything against russia. both governments are party to the secret nuclear war plan in complete betrayal of the people of their respective countries, and on the evening of april 3 they suddenly discovered that their precious war plan was in deep, deep trouble. immediately the thatcher government started assembling a naval armada to sail for the south atlantic. haste was the order of the day. the drilling on south georgia island was proceeding around the clock. the best estimates were that the drilling would break through into the roof of the naval base in about three weeks, on or about april 24. if help did not reach south georgia by then, the secret installation might be doomed. the forces stationed at the installation itself were unable to defend themselves under the circumstances. their mighty naval ships were ships in a bottle. they did not dare open the bottle to sail out to fight because the russian commandos were armed with tactical and nuclear weapons. to open the blast-proof entrance doors would be suicide. on april 5, just two days after south georgia island was seized, some 40 naval ships began moving out of british ports. the same day lord carrington was sacked as foreign minister. he was forced to resign, my friends, because he had assisted the rockefeller attack plan by downplaying the argentine attack that same day, april 5, new zealand, the home of the other secret naval fleet, broke diplomatic relations with argentina. the two hidden new zealand facilities had been placed on "red alert." as a precautionary measure, all submarines at the twin base were ordered to sea. several surface ships were already at sea undergoing "sea trials", but that still left seven (7) major ships inside the hidden twin naval base including one of the nuclear aircraft carriers i mentioned earlier. on that busy day of april 5, argentina's foreign minister, costa mendez, was at the united nations in new york. he was alarmed by the deployment of such a large part of the royal navy. costa mendez hurried here to washington to seek reassurances from certain officials. he got them! for the next two weeks or so the news was filled with stories about the allegedly slow movement of the british fleet while negotiations went on. that, my friends, was only a cover story. the royal navy was actually joining up and moving as rapidly as possible toward south georgia island. if the task force arrived in time to save the secret base, a major battle was likely. the official stories about "slow movement" of the british armada were intended to give a cushion of time for that battle. if need be, the fleet would have several days to retake south georgia island, then it could move on to arrive near the falklands on the announced schedule. in this way the crucial importance of south georgia island would be hidden and the big secret preserved. it was initially expected that advance elements of the british fleet would reach the vicinity of south georgia island within two weeks. that would have been soon enough to attack the joint rockefeller-russian commando team and stop the drilling before it was completed. but russian cosmospheres and submarines made a shambles of the plan. key advance elements of the south georgia attack contingent left ascension island early april 14, two days before it was announced officially. shortly after they did so, they ran into trouble. russian cosmospheres and attack submarines closed in on a single ship which was critical to the planned counterassault on south georgia island. the cosmospheres bombarded the bridge and combat information center of the ship with neutron radiation. in moments the ship was without any command, its communications and radar silenced. then a russian "sub" closed in and quickly finished off this key british ship with torpedoes. it broke apart with secondary explosions and sank rapidly. so far as is known, there were no survivors. this unexpected shock in the mid-atlantic produced two results, both important: first, it caused a slowdown in the race toward the south atlantic by the british armada. the task force had to be regrouped into a configuration better suited for an enroute defense, but that cost valuable time. public announcements from london about the progress of the fleet reflected this slowdown. the timetable for arrival on battle stations near the falklands started stretching out longer and longer. all this bought extra time for the joint commando team on south georgia island. the drilling continued. the other result of the sinking was equally important. word was flashed to the south pacific stealth navy to prepare for possible action. it was obvious that the russian navy was getting involved in the atlantic, which meant that the royal navy could be in big trouble. during the dead of night, early april 15, the seven stealth ships put to sea from their twin secret bases in southern new zealand. they deployed to a secret operational headquarters area in the antipodes islands, 450 miles southeast of new zealand. their electromagnetic shields were operating to provide protection from attack. these shields make it impossible to communicate with the outside world or even to see it, as i explained last month; but once they arrived at the antipodes, the stealth ships hooked up to buoys equipped with shielded communication cables to the island headquarters. the antipodes headquarters, in turn, was in constant touch with the south georgia base by way of a transoceanic cable around the tip of south america. the deployment of the available ships of the south pacific stealth fleet was exactly what the joint rockefeller-russian planners had hoped for. the ships had been flushed out from their essentially invulnerable hiding place in new zealand! the british ship's sinking of april 14 was also followed by other events. on april 15 the argentine navy started moving out of port. the same day, alexander haig arrived again in buenos aires. supposedly he was there as a diplomat, but in reality he was there as a general, dealing with generals. haig is the top governmental operative of the rockefeller cartel, as i have revealed in the past. he was making sure that the argentines did not get cold feet and back down at that critical moment. four days later, april 19, haig left for washington. as he boarded his plane, haig somberly told reporters, "time is running out." and so it was, my friends, for the secret south georgia base. the very next day, april 20, the drill broke through into the hollowed-out cavern of the naval base. bolshevik military analysts in london had not expected that it could be completed until at least the following weekend. the british fleet was still out of range. the weapon which the commando team inserted down through the long hole was a small, compact russian neutron bomb. when it was detonated inside the confines of the huge artificial cave, the effects were devastating. the intense radiation instantly killed everyone inside the base. also the heat and blast effects of the bomb are believed to have damaged all the ships inside sufficiently to badly disable them. meanwhile, russian cosmospheres and submarines were converging on the stealth ships which were near the antipodes islands awaiting orders. from a distance, the ships were invisible to the eye due to their protective shields, which also protect against beam-weapon attack; but they were sitting ducks for the tactics which the russians employed. floating overhead, the cosmospheres located the seven ships using their psychoenergetic range-finding equipment known as prf. as i have reported in the past, there is no method known by which prf can be jammed. the cosmospheres radioed the exact locations of the ships to the attack submarines. the "subs" were armed with special non-homing, non-nuclear torpedoes designed to explode on impact. more sophisticated torpedoes would have been thrown off course or detonated prematurely by the protective shield of each ship; but these simple torpedoes just cruise right through each invisibility field to strike the ship and explode. within 15 minutes after the attack began, all seven bolshevik stealth ships were on their way to the bottom, and with them went their bolshevik commanders and mercenary crews collected from around the world. the south pacific action took place just after sunset local time. the time here in washington was around 2:00 p.m. april 23. that evening secretary of state haig was seen briefly in public with the new british foreign minister, francis pym. pym was wearing the artificial pseudo-smile which diplomats are taught always to display in public. but not haig. haig was grinning from ear to ear, and no wonder. the joint rockefeller-russian military operation had been a brilliant success. the secret bolshevik south atlantic fleet had been virtually wiped out, bottled up inside south georgia island; and the south pacific fleet, while not totally wiped out, had been badly crippled. by working together, the rockefeller cartel and the russians had won the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere. topic #3--as i say these words, news reports give the impression that war is about to erupt in the south atlantic, but the real war in the southern hemisphere is already over. what we are watching now is the beginning of its bloody aftermath. that aftermath is the battle for the falkland islands. they have been promised to argentina as a reward for her role in the secret war. at this moment the bolsheviks here in washington are pressing for a public announcement that the united states will side with britain. as soon as that takes place, military action will heat up fast around the falklands. britain has no choice but to fight. she has already suffered casualties which cannot be explained without a public battle; but by fighting, the bolsheviks in britain are running the risk of a humiliating and tragic defeat for the royal navy. meanwhile, the rockefeller strategists here are now concentrating on a fast-building, anti-nuclear-war campaign. on all sides now we are hearing about the so-called "nuclear freeze movement." there are documentaries, articles, publicity of all kinds to sensitize us to the terrors of nuclear war. in recent months, there have even been referenda popping up on election ballots dealing with the nuclear war issue. medical doctors are banding together to warn the public about what would happen if there were a nuclear war. we are being told that all this is just popping up spontaneously. we are now 37 years into the nuclear age and nothing like this has ever gained so much momentum before, yet now we are supposed to believe that millions of americans have spontaneously gotten the same ideas at the same time. if you believe that, my friends, i give up. movements like this never, and i mean never, develop without leadership, organization, and money--and plenty of it. what we are watching is the rockefeller public relations machine at work. as i've explained in the past, the rockefeller cartel cannot afford to let a nuclear war take place. if it does, they will lose everything because they are not in a position to control it. instead, the deadly enemies of the rockefeller cartel, the bolsheviks here, will win out if there is a war; and so the rockefeller faction is now doing everything in its power to prevent a nuclear war. the present anti-nuclear-war orientation of the rockefeller cartel creates certain temporary common interests between them and russia; but as russia's new rulers know very well, this does not spring from any great moral perspective on the part of the rockefeller group. it's purely a matter of practical necessity right now for the rockefellers. the russians regard the united states as a house divided, and they are exploiting that division by working in careful ways with the rockefellers. their first priority is to rid the world of the deadly bolshevik menace of all-out, even suicidal, nuclear war; but once that is done, they know that there will be a day of reckoning with the rockefeller cartel some day. the rockefeller group is working toward a definite objective with their new anti-nuclear-war propaganda. that objective is renewed power--and power that moves them closer to their old dream of world government. the bolsheviks here have unwittingly provided fertile ground for the powerful new rockefeller antiwar campaign. under bolshevik control, the so-called reagan administration has become so hawkish that it's scaring people. the rockefeller antiwar campaign is designed to capitalize on that latent fear as a tool of power. these days the smell of war is in the air. the falklands crisis is helping to make that more intense. the rockefeller propaganda machine is now paving the way for the argument that surrender of sovereignty is the only way to avoid war. a new super-united nations of sorts is now in the works to fill the bill. it will have teeth! as presently envisioned, the new organization will be based in geneva, switzerland. the working name, though this may be changed, is the "world nonproliferation council." the plan is to bring it into being as the outgrowth of nuclear nonproliferation treaties, but its true purpose will be to use fear--the fear of war--to control us all. last minute summary now it's time for my last minute summary. in this audio letter i have reported on the reasons behind the so-called falkland islands crisis. the crisis erupted because of secret bolshevik-controlled naval installations in the southern hemisphere. these have been attacked by joint action of the rockefeller cartel and the russians in an attempt to slow down the nuclear-war timetable. the attacks were successful, but the results remain to be seen. one result, though, is that the royal navy has now been drawn into a trap. britain's waterloo at sea may well be at hand. my friends, two factions are struggling for control over our united states--the rockefeller cartel and the bolsheviks. they differ in style but both seek to control us through fear. if we are ever to rise above their trickery, it must be through the power of our lord jesus christ, our only hope. as the scripture tells us, our lord "...has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, of love, and of a sound mind." we must learn to wage peace. as our lord declared long ago, "blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of god." until next month, god willing, this is dr. beter. thank you, and may god bless each and every one of you. 
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 _too_ many. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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 bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (bronis vidugiris) says: )>the official and legal term for rape is "the crime of forcing a female )>to submit to sexual intercourse." )please, supply me with some references. i was not aware that all states )had the word "female" in the rape statutes. i am sure others are surprised )as well. i know thats how it works in practice (nice-n-fair, not!!), but )was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only, )uniformly throughout the u.s. i agree mostly with chris. it is (unfortunately, imo) true that the *fbi* figures for rape based on the 'uniform crime report' report only female rapes. however, some states (such as illinois) are not tabluated because they refuse to comply with this sexist definition! the worms crawl in the worms crawl out the worms post to the net from your account insofar as several "liberal" jurisdictions are concerned, the essential elements of rape are gender neutral. nonetheless, i decided to provide a number of references to support my original argument. black's law dictionary (every law student/lawyer's friend) defines rape as: unlawful sexual intercourse with a female without her consent. the unlawful knowledge of a woman by a man forcibly and against her will. the model penal code (the statute proposed by the national conference of commissioners of uniform state laws or other organization for adoption by state legislatures) defines rape as: a male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if he (a) compels her to submit by force or by threat of imminent death.... (mpc @213.1(1)(a)) indeed the following jurisdictions/states have statutes similar to the mpc: alabama-- code of ala. @13a-6-61 (1992) arkansas--ark.stat.ann. @5-14-103 (1993) district of columbia--d.c. code @22-2801 (1992) georgia--o.f.g.a. @16-6-1 (1992) idaho--idaho code @18-6101 (1992) maryland--md.ann.code.art. 27 @462 (1992) mississippi--miss.code ann. @97-3-71 (1993) new york (check case law)--n.y.c.l.s. penal @130.35 (1993) north carolina--n.c. gen.stat. @14-27-2 (1992) puerto rico--l.p.r.a. @4062 (1993) 
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 the white house office of the press secretary (vancouver, british columbia) for immediate release april 4, 1993 press conference by the president with russian press canada place vancouver, british columbia 2:46 p.m. pdt q i had two questions for both presidents, so you could probably answer for boris, too. (laughter.) the president: i'll give you my answer, then i'll give you yeltsin's answer. (laughter.) q the first is that this is the meeting of the presidents, so the money that's being promised is government money, and naturally it's going to be distributed through the government. but you've indicated that three-quarters are going to be going to businesses. so the question is how the russian businesses themselves are going to be consulted, if ever? what are the priorities, because there are several association of russian businessmen existing already, so will they be invited to participate in setting up priorities for investment? this is the first. and second, to you. we know that polls, public polls in america do not show that americans are very enthusiastic about giving this aid. like newsweek polls say that about 75 percent don't approve it, and new york times published that 52 percent support if it just prevents civil war; 42 percent if it fosters democratic reform; and only 29 percent if it just personally supports yeltsin. how are you going to sort of handle this problem that americans themselves are not very enthusiastic? thank you. q i have a question, i'm sorry -- is there going to be a translation of everything into russian? no, just the answers. just the answers. okay. the president: the answer to the first question is, it depends on what kind of aid we're discussing. for example, the funds that will be set up for financing new businesses will obviously go to those businesses who apply and who seem to be good risks and make the application. the privatization fund will be used to support the privatization of existing public enterprises. then there are some other general funds in the democracy corps and other things which people in russia will have some influence over the distribution of. with regard to your second question, let me say that i would think that there would be people in both countries who would not feel too warmly toward simply the american government giving money to the russian government. there's opposition to that in russia. and in our country, throughout our whole history there has been an opposition to foreign aid of all kinds. that is, this has nothing to do with russia. if you look at the whole history of america, any kind of aid program has always been what i have tried to tell the american people is, is this is not an aid program, this is an investment program; that this is an investment in our future. we spent $4 trillion -- trillion -- on armaments on soldiers and other investments because of the cold war. now, with a democratic government in russia, with the newly independent states, the remainder of them working on a democracy and struggling to get their economies going, it seems to me very much in our interest to make it possible to do whatever we can for democracy to survive, for the economy of russia to grow because of the potential for trade and investment there, and for us to continue the effort to reduce nuclear weapons and other elements of hostility on both sides, on our side and on the russian side. so i don't see this as an aid program; this is an investment for the united states. this is very much in the interest of the united states. the things i announced today, the second stage of the program, which i hope to put together next week, in my view are things that are good for my country and for the taxpayers and workers of my country. russia is a very great nation that needs some partnership now, some common endeavor with other people who share her goals. but it would be a great mistake for anyone to view this as some sort of just a charity or an aid issue. that's not what it is, it's an investment for america and it's a wonderful like all investments, there is some risk. but there's far less risk with a far greater potential of return than the $4 trillion we spent looking at each other across the barrier of the cold war. q mr. president, first of all thank you very much, indeed, for coming here and talking to us. in the memory of the living correspondents, this is the first time an american president is doing this to the russian press corps, so it's kind of a very measured breakthrough. i have two questions. one, in your introductory remarks of the other press conference, you mentioned in brief that you discussed the start ii and start i issues. could you tell us: did you reach an agreement with president yeltsin as to what might be done in order to have ukraine join the ratification of start i and the npt regime? and my second question is, how confident you are that the united states congress would be eager to support you in lifting jackson-vanik and other restrictions inherited from the cold war? president clinton: first, we discussed the issue of ukraine with regard to start i and npt, and generally, with regard to the need to proceed to have the other independent states all be non-nuclear; but also to have the united states develop strong relationships with them. we know that one thing that we could do that would increase, i think, the willingness of the ukraine to support this direction is to successfully conclude our own negotiations on highly enriched uranium, because that would provide not only an important economic opportunity for russia, but also for ukraine, and it would show some reaching out on our part. but we agreed that basically the people who signed off on the lisbon protocol have got to honor what they did, and we agreed to continue to press that. i, myself, have spent a good deal of time trying to reassure ukraine's leaders, specifically the president and the foreign minister, that i want strong ties with ukraine, that the united states very much wants a good relationship with ukraine, but that, in order to do what we need to do together to strengthen the economy of ukraine and to have the united states be fully supportive, the commitment to ratify start i and to join the npt regime is critical. what was the second question? the president: with regard to jackson-vanik and cocom, i would make two points: first, i have agreed with the republican and democratic leaders in the congress that we will, as soon as i return, have a list of all the legislative and other restrictions, some of them are regulatory in nature, imposed on relations between the united states and russia, that are legacies of the cold war. and we will see whether they're -- how many of them we could agree to do away with right now, at least among the leadership of the congress. with regard to jackson-vanik, i think there will be an openness to change the law if the congress is convinced there are, in fact, no more refusniks, no more people who wish to emigrate who are not being allowed to. if the fact is that there is no one there who would have been -- who the law was designed to affect, then i think that the desire to keep the law will be much less. with regard to cocom, my guess is, and it's nothing more than a guess, that the leadership of congress and indeed my own advisers, might prefer to see some sort of phased movement out of the cocom regime. but i think they would be willing to begin it in the fairly near future. q mr. clinton, when i read your speech in annapolis, i got the impression that you have a completely different personal -- and i stress that -- personal, not political approach towards russia, compared to the approach of mr. bush. could you formulate in a few words, what is the difference between you as a personality and your approach -- the difference between your approach to russia and the approach of mr. bush? and who made you -- why did you cite akhmatova in the last part of your speech? the president: let me say, first, i do not wish to compare myself with president bush or anyone else. i can't say what was in his heart about russia. i can say that since i was a boy, i have been personally fascinated with the history, the music and the culture, and the literature of russia. i have been thrilled by russian music since i was a serious student of music for more than 30 years now. i have read major russian novelists and many of your poets and followed your ballet and tried to know as much as i could about your history. and i went to the soviet union -- but it was then the soviet union -- you may know it was a big issue in the last presidential campaign that i spent the first week of 1970 alone in moscow and did not return again until three days before mr. yeltsin was elected president. but all that time i was away, i was following events there very closely and hoping for the day when we could be genuine partners. so i have always had a personal feeling about russia. i remember, for example -- a lot of you know i like music very much. one of the most moving experiences for me as a musician was when leonard bernstein took the new york philharmonic to moscow and played shostakovich's fifth symphony to the russians. and he played the last movement more rapidly than anyone had ever played it before because it was technically so difficult. that is something i followed very closely when it these are things that have always had a big impact on my life. and i had just always hoped that someday, if i ever had the chance to, i could play a role in seeing our two countries become closer partners. (applause.) the press: thank you. end3:06 p.m. pdt 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 5, 1993 public schedule of the president tuesday, april 6, 1993 11:15 am est president clinton delivers remarks with egyptian president mubarek, the east room, the white house open press future schedule of the president april 16, 1993 president clinton meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa, the white house april 26, 1993 president clinton meets with italian president amato, the white house 
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 i don't know what you as a white male did. i do know what white males, as a class, have done. they've invented the light bulb, the automobile, the airplane, printing with movable type, photography, computers, the electric guitar. anasthesia, rocket powered space flight, the computer, electricity, the telephone, tv, motion pictures, penecillin(sp), telescopes, nylon, and the x-ray machine. two glaring errors here. first, white males don't do anything as a "class." individual white males invented those things, which means nothing to white males as a whole. second, you neglected to mention charles manson, hitler, mccarthy, jack the ripper, ted bundy, and a whole slew of individuals who have done horrible, evil things. if white males can take the credit for our fellow white males' boons, we must also take the blame for our fellows' blights. i claim we deserve neither credit nor blame for these white males need to wake up and realize that they're being unfair, yes. but everyone else needs to wake up and realize that being unfair right back is disgusting, racist and sexist. why can't we learn to treat everyone fairly, without generalizing? what stupidity gene makes this so difficult? "i'd like to buy the world a clue..." the word that is missing in this whole discourse is not the "b" word, or the "h" word, or even the "n" or "w" words. it is the "l" word - loser !! that's right. when we boil all the crap out of this argument, it is all about winning and losing, and nothing else. let me explain. in the meantime, there is guilt for winning, maybe a fear that one doesn't deserve one's bounty - or success. so there is a "kinder and gentler type of politician these days, bill clinton, affirmative action, and lots of discourse about people who "don't get it". for those of us in the winning business, this kind of talk is mildly irritating, but there is still no suggestion of losing. who is d-fens, anyway ? the answer is as plain as the horn rims on your face. the guy is michael douglas, posing as a loser. this is known as controversial casting. but that baggy short-sleeved white shirt sure does look natural on mike doesn't it. gordon gekko will never look the same. (though woody always dressed that way.) did we really expect gekko to take it easy and enjoy that kind of wardrobe, without putting up a fuss ? what we are starting to lose sight of is, that bashing d-fens is the same game as bashing that poor african american slug that clint eastwood used to blow away all the time. as that arch-wasp (male gender) george c. scott declaimed, "americans traditionally love to win. they love a winner, and will not tolerate a loser." and so on. since we are talking in theory and opinion, then i'll put in my $.02. first, a rebuttle. personally, i love under-dogs. unlike bandwagon jumpers, i abandon teams when they start winning. people that cheer for winners just because they are winners are insecure people who are afraid to be associated with something negative. the political implications are simple. if, as many socialists - and democrats - do, you consider society a finite pie to a apportioned in some "equitable" way, then you have to worry about who is a winner and who is a loser to tell whose side you are on. that could be black women today, asian homosexuals tommorrow, and yes indeed, white men some yet to be determined day when the balance of the pie has finally swung against that (39%) on this one point, i agree. the reason that people bash wasp's is because they have been on top for a long time. whoever is on top is going to oppress whoever is below them so that they can stay on top. if hannibal had pushed on to rome after his victory at cannae we might all be bashing the blacks for oppressing us peacefull white people for all these centuries. i seriously doubt that if the blacks had conquered the world that they would have treated their colonies any better/worse than the whites did. the white race did some unspeakable things to the other races of the world. but they only did what any other conquering race would have done (ie. khan). the real question is, should we carry over that blame to the present generation who didn't participate in the crimes? would it do any good? has it done bosnia any good? they are fighting wars that stopped hundreds, even thousands, of years ago. my opinion is, if there are inequities now, then let's change them. but don't blame me for what my ancestors did. it wouldn't settle anything anyway. either way you go, the way of the winner is no longer the way to be popular - at least after you graduate from high school (but you'll still be popular at high school reunions). but it beats being a nerd, as i would imagine michael douglas would now agree, and in the long run, it is the only way to go. that's where you are dead wrong. you don't join up on a side just because they are winning. that makes you spineless. winning, in high school and after high school, is still the best way to be popular, but it doesn't make you right. all the best causes in history were loosing causes (with only a couple exceptions). winning only makes a difference to other people, not to yourself. and what good is the opinions of other people if they only care how you appear (ie. a winner). if you can't beat them, fight them every inch of the way. bill r. "at that moment the bottom fell out of authur's mind. garrett johnson his eyes turned inside out. his feet began to leak out garrett@ingres.com of the top of his head. the room folded flat around him, spun around, shifted out of existence and left him sliding into his own naval." - douglas adams 
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 # ## # gay men constitute at least 20% of all child molestations. whether # ## # this is because gay molesters are unusually common, or have unusually # ## # high numbers of victims, sort of misses the point, doesn't it? it # ## # means that whichever is the case, homosexual men are remarkably # ## # hazardous to children. # clayton says: # #you are incorrect. the most recent survey data i can find shows that # #26% of molestation is exclusively homosexuals, 4% is bisexual (victims # #are both male and female), and the remainder is exclusively heterosexual. # so what you are saying is that 74% of the child molestations are # committed by heterosexuals. i cannot see the correlation you cite bisexuals are heterosexuals? since when? # which concludes that by being homosexual, you will molest children or that # by being homosexual you will have the propensity for molesting children. i haven't said that "homosexual = child molester," simply that is more # if 26% of the molestations are by homosexuals, why are you so concerned # about creating a relation between the two? if you had evidence that # 95% of the molestations are committed by homosexuals you might find a # relationship. ok, where is the realtionship you make? the one that is shown when nambla marches in gay parades. # also, what is the reason people molest? from human sexuality and a # psych class or too i have taken the overwhelming voice says that people # commit these acts as power trips and to feel in control. this has nothing # to do with sexual orientation. you mean that s&m, because it's a power trip, has nothing to do with sexual orientation? # mortal@netcom.com clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 anyone with any degree of sensitivity or awareness has to be concerned about the horrendous amount of "child abuse" that exists in this country. [...] the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is "forced" [...] when a child is "forced" there is often "damage", on the other hand, "consensual" relationships are often found to be "positive experiences" for all concerned. [...] roy radow roy@panix.com ...rutgers!cmcl2!panix!roy north american man/boy love association -for a packet containing a sample why all the quote marks, roy? i can see that they might be appropriate where there is a legitimate concern that the words are being distorted by context, or that they have been appropriated newspeak-style, but, reading your comments above, one might be excused if they assumed that you were claiming that "child abuse", "forced" sexual activity, and "damage" caused by this is non-existant or greatly overblown. "positive experiences", indeed! -paul elliott (member in good standing of the optilink mafia) -------- paul elliott - dsc optilink - petaluma, ca usa ---------- {uunet,pyramid,tekbspa}!optilink!elliott -or- elliott@optilink.com "i used to think i was indecisive, but now i'm not so sure." 
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 # # "abortions destructive of the fetus must be permitted, even # # just before birth, if they promote what the [supreme] court # # calls ``health'' # yes, doug, we all know that roe v. wade prevents states from prohibiting # abortions necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman. only # very stupid people (such as yourself) confuse a discussion of mental health # related to "jane doe", who was in a mental institution, and attempt to claim # that this same argument could be applied to a woman who decided she wanted # an abortion because she was having a "bad hair day". # as you well know, the facts are that there are about 100 third-trimester # abortions performed in this country annually, and those are *only* done for # *serious* health reasons. # larry margolis, margoli@yktvmv (bitnet), margoli@watson.ibm.com (internet) hmmm. human gestation period is something like 39 weeks. that means third trimester abortions are those done after 26 weeks. in consulting a 1989 world almanac, i see that 1% of abortions in 1983 were done at 21 weeks or more. that's about 1268 abortions in 1983 after 21 weeks. unless the number of abortions performed has dropped dramatically, or a lot of abortions are done between 21 and 26 weeks, i think you are by the way, roe v. wade allowed states to adopt very, very broad prohibitions on third-trimester abortions, but some states, such as california, declined to do so. it was reported* that what finally stopped third trimester elective abortions in the bay area wasn't law, but that the only hospital doing them ran out of nurses, then doctors, willing to do them. not surprisingly, the bay area now chapter was terribly upset about this. i remain pro-choice, but when pro-choicers compare abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church, you have to start wondering a bit if the pro-life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice doesn't have a grain of truth to it. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 #>nambla's presence in the sf gay pride parade says quite a bit. #>it says that either the parade organizers want to show support #>for nambla, or they themselves have a fundamental misunderstanding #>of their rights and responsibilities. i would really, really like #>to believe the latter, but i would need some help to do so. there are dozens of examples of the latter; nambla is an especially glaring one, but hardly the only one. perhaps, though the exclusion of the gay perotistas in the sf gay pride parade would make me think that they had some clue in this regard. dozens of examples? i don't know... mark walsh (walsh@optilink) -- uucp: uunet!optilink!walsh amateur radio: km6xu@wx3k -- aol: bigcookie@aol.com -- uscf: l10861 "what, me worry?" - william m. gaines, 1922-1992 "i'm gonna crush you!" - andre the giant, 1946-1993 
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 ##it should be noted that nambla has not been present in the ##other 600 or so gay parades in the nation. while i view this ##as an isolated event, i am very troubled by its reccurence. i hope i'm not going to hate myself for getting involved in this discussion, but i felt obliged to keep things factually last year nambla marched in the pride parades in boston, new york and san francisco. it was not the first time we participated in these parades and it will not be the last. (i have marched with the nambla contingent in new york, every year, for more than a decade.) thank you for correcting the error in my post to the net. this information came from a newspaper article that was fuzzy in my mind. i can only wonder if there have been similar outcries about nambla's presence in the parades of new york and boston. yours in liberation from molestation, north american micro-biological laboratories association for a packet containing a sample bulletin, publications list and membership information send $1.00 postage to... note: sometimes i do the darndest things while trying to squelch my desire to flame the living daylights out of somebody for their beliefs and/or associations, especially if they are so genial... phil, take it away! :-) mark walsh (walsh@optilink) -- uucp: uunet!optilink!walsh amateur radio: km6xu@wx3k -- aol: bigcookie@aol.com -- uscf: l10861 "what, me worry?" - william m. gaines, 1922-1992 "i'm gonna crush you!" - andre the giant, 1946-1993 
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 in article 164871 in talk.politics.misc, margoli@watson.ibm.com i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being (i.e., a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law) as someone with a functioning brain. no, if you want to use legal precedent, you should take a look at the model penal code, on which many states base their criminal code: my apologies if i was unclear; i was not trying to start a statutory debate, since there are many (in some cases conflicting) statutes on the books. i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro-choicer imho. and i was pointing out that legal precedent defines a human being as referring only to the born, so your suggestion was incorrect. if at some point an unborn child is a human being, the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children. and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children, even if necessary to save the child's life. there is a confusion here between action and inaction: a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child's life either, but a parent is required to feed his children. there is a confusion here about what "bodily resources" constitutes. blood transfusions and organ donations involve bodily resources; your examples do not. larry margolis, margoli@yktvmv (bitnet), margoli@watson.ibm.com (internet) 
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 _too_ many. agreed. we need more folks to admit they're bi. michael d. adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) champaign, il / southeast al "thrush believes in the two-party system: the masters and the slaves." -- napoleon solo (from the man from u.n.c.l.e) 
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 |> don't look at me. i want to send aid to russia. many other |> conservatives do as well. yes, it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia. it makes me proud to be a libertarian. it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win, then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around. enemy? sounds like that's the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative -- 'always been commies, always will be.' ok, i should have said "former" enemy. i was being sarcastic about what interventionists want to do. i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti-west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress. i sure know who i want to back. could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a have you considered a non-interventionist policy? if market reform does happen, russia will certainly get *private* capital at *private* risk to help their economy. they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason. if they don't reform, then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help then their's the ideological point. we want to "win" russia over to our type of government -- a type where the rulers can rule without limit over everyone's finances? it's like subsidizing the wealthy countries (japan, germany, etc.) with free defense, and then trade-warring with them because of the economic competition. it's like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke. better to let them degenerate into civil war? remember all those nuclear weapons in russia. i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war. if nationialists take over and, even if they prevent a civil war, most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries (like ukraine.) i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight, possibly nuclear. how does this affect us? well, we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we'd feel something. a massive breakup of a country that spans 1/6th the planet is bound to have affects here. (of course, there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies (or struggling democracies).) if a $1.6 billion gift was that important to our well being, couldn't it be raised voluntarilly? people already give over $100 billion a year to i ask myself, what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid, frivilous things with our money? then i think, the constitution was supposed to do that. could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries? seriously. seriously. everyone has different opinions on what is stupid. my two "causes" are aid to russia and a strong space program. someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish. that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy. instead of gridlock on a massive scale, we only have gridlock on a congressional scale. it seems instead of gridlock on any scale, we have aid to russia, expensive space programs, national charity that doesn't help the poor, and probably, studies of drunken goldfish. i think *limited* government is more key than how democratic it is. btw, who is to decide 'stupid?' this is just like those who want to impose their 'morals' on others -- just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against. that was an opinion, and libertarians are very big on free speech. actually, my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party. it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim. if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian. consider it a compromise. how much money would your fellow russia-aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren't using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don't support? we could do that 100 years ago but not now. people have been saying that for hundreds of years. like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making. all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information, than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues. disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else roger collins sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? let history answer this question. -- thomas jefferson, first inaugural address 
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 the liberal gov. wilder vetoed it. which shows that liberals don't give a damn about "best person for the job," it's just a power "women are only interested in clothes and shopping" "whites are imperialist colonial fascists" "blacks are lazy uneducated scum" "men are rapists" "homosexuals support child-molesting" slogans, my dear cramer, are not an adequate substitute for thought. tony quirke, wellington, new zealand. quirke_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992 
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 if someone beats up a homosexual, he should get charged for assault and battery. why must we add gay bashing to the list? isn't this a sort of double jeopardy? or am i just being a fascist again? () to deter an epidemic of "gay bashing" that has not been deterred by assault laws. so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a and who's advocating that? hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts. just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat-of-passion homicide. but you still get into trouble. for example - how often are crimes of violence not "hate crimes"? the question is then who are you hating? if its another gang member, then its better than if the person you hate is of a differnt color? also, is it realistic to declare that crimes of hate are worse than crimes of gross negligence? (like random drive by shootings where they can't be hate crimes because the shooter doesn't know who he is going to hit - he just shoots into the crowd). () no, it is not "double jeopardy." a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes. i think what you meant to say here was, "with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state, someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade." a single act should never merit more than on charge. so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center, i can only be charged with more than one murder, and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage? after all, the bomb was a single act. first, i heard today that there is a good chance that the u.s. instead of new york is going after the bombers. this means no capital punishment. secondly, double jepardy does help keep the government from going after you for first one murder, then the next, etc. a "sovereign" has essentially one chance with a single fact pattern (such as the world trade center bombing). that is why the bombers will in all probability be tried for all the deaths, as well as the property damages, as well as conspiracy, at once. of course, as we discovered in the rodney king case, there are two "sovereigns", neither of which can try you twice for the same crime. bruce e. hayden (303) 758-8400 bhayden@csn.org 
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 vengeance. that's all. it's no deterrent. it serves no it seems to deter those who are executed from future criminal activity. yeah yeah yeah... and sure would be nice if we didn't apply the death penalty disproportionately to minorities. i'll revisit my opinion on the death penalty when there are more whites up for it than blacks. i.e., when hell freezes over. why don't you compare the rates at which blacks and whites commit crimes? blacks commit crimes disproportionately, so in a perfectly fair penal system, blacks would be disproportionately represented. (note: black vs. white crime rates is not a racial thing. it's probably an economic thing: poor people are more likely to commit crimes, and blacks are more likely to be poor. the way to reduce the proportion of minorities in prison is to increase the wealth of minorities.) --tim smith 
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 william december starr writes... in a typical lawyer baiting fashion, as usual. (all the while ignoring every principle of the aclu.) good to see your still out there wds. surely we've been around the ring enough by now, that you know you can't spin me up with expletives. let's see if there's anything left worth responding to... cyrus' "achy breaky heart" ad infinitum until either koresh surrenders or the rest of the state of texas is totally depopulated... :-) e for effort. heard about the folks who live around foghorns and erect an inverted cross, or a star of david broken asunder, out in front of the davidians to provoke them. or boom out islamic prayers. or worse. what temple would you destroy? what books would you burn? will you kill clergy? will you mock the spirit of god before the innocent?? sure i would. why not? seems right in character to me -- creature of the state. btw, are you still happy with your presidents? if you in government have no respect for other's faith, and no respect for the lives and well being of those innocent children caught in this hell you've created -- why should anyone respect your lipservice of "rule of law?" what does rule of law have to do with respect for anyone's religious see the part about the children following the "and" in the first line as to a connection, your "cult" is "faith in rules". no matter who the criminals are, or what they've done (and it looks like there are criminals on both sides of the matter) -- their conviction is not worth the abuse you're causing. what abuse? please be specific. sure. my concern is the well being of the children. if you are willing to ignore the children, or heap abuse, insult, and sacrilege on the children inside the davidian house -- then god rebuke you. best you learn directly from the lord the corruption you're committing. in god's good time and way, the lord judge you -- i can not. for truth be told i would send you all straight to hell -- and god would be right in sending me right along with you. oh, fuck you and the god you rode in on, stephen. if you can show the legitimacy of god's claim of sovereignty over man, please do so. otherwise stop ranting and raving about him already. -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> {interesting that you would respond "emotionally" in defense of the government. maybe there is a beating heart there.} for the record though, the biggest-baddest goverment on earth claims the most sovereignty over man. best i can tell god allows anyone to go to hell who wants to. omnipotency logically determines that "allowing" and "sending" mean the same thing. (mere human concepts of course.) so come on wds. why bother to try some flimsy facade of logic. waco proves it's not needed -- the demonstration that government can walk over it's own rules in the name of justice has been made. no problem by me. noted and announced -- for the record. just giving the govern- ment it's due, and getting back to more worthwhile non-government -- j -- | stephen 
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 that drag the us down and cause problems at home and abroad. rank balderdash! america's reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity. don't be ridiculous, kaldis. i suggest you give the "ugly american" concept, which i can easily see you demonstrating, a good hard second look. the american way is not the only way, it's not necessarally the best way, and it is incredibly arrogant to even think that. the american way may not be the only way, and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way, but, by god, it's _our_ way and we're going to stick with it! if you can't go along with the program, then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere. dear god. didn't this die out in the fifties with mccarthy and the i've spent quite a bit of time in different provinces of canada and let me tell you, it is very refreshing to spend time with people who are not full of arrogant nationalism and empty patriotism. that is exactly the _problem_ with canadians! they don't stand for anything with certitude. didn't your mother ever teach you not to generalize? i am a canadian, and i stand up for _too many_ things with _too much_ certitude. the canadians i know well enough to say this about, seem to have a great deal of pride in their provinces and their country, but they aren't blinded by flags and ideals like many americans are. could this be because they are bereft of ideals? uh huh. this must explain the world reknowned, record low american crime rate. i see now, it's all becoming so clear to me. well, i've said too much, yes you have. no he hasn't. but i was so angered by your words that i felt i had to say something. sorry to intrude. you pipsqueak! you mouse! if you are sorry to intrude then why do it? don't you have the courage of your convictions? hell, do you even have any convictions to start with? what kind of example of manly dignity is this? sheesh! remarkable audacity and misguidance. what you take for your own courage, sir, is nothing more than simple loud-mouthedness coupled with unrestrained "please allow me to introduce myself. sympathy i'm a man of wealth and taste. for the devil i've been around for long, long years. the laibach stolen many a man's soul, and faith." remixes 
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 rich thompson posts some blather about the libertarian party: august 30, 31, sept. 1: everything you always wanted to know about winning elections, but didn't know where to ask! what pray tell do the libertarians know about winning elections? robert w. mcgwier | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org center for communications research | interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf princeton, n.j. 08520 | asst scoutmaster troop 5700, hightstown 
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 narrative, narrative, narrative. . . c.b. 
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 if someone beats up a homosexual, he should get charged for assault and battery. why must we add gay bashing to the list? isn't this a sort of double jeopardy? or am i just being a fascist again? [douglas meier] assuming the questions are not rhetorical, the answers are: () to deter an epidemic of "gay bashing" that has not been deterred by assault laws. () no, it is not "double jeopardy." a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes. () yes. let's leave aside the personal-insult potential that doug created by asking his last question and just concentrate on the legal/political debate... last point first: yes, a single act may lead to multiple, independent charges. however, as a side note, i _think_ that the prohibition on double jeopardy mandates that the suspect be tried on all those charges at the same time, in the same trial. (unless, of course, the government can pull the "separate sovereignties" crock that they're using on those four lapd cops who arrested rodney king, i.e. trying a person who's already been acquitted in state court on federal charges arising from the same act... _i_ think that this is double jeopardy but apparently the courts don't agree with me.) note that the laws that don't agree with you were passed to protect a class of people who couldn't get justice from the state courts; specifically civil rights workers in missisippi in the 60's. the federal protection of individual rights supersedes the non-feasance of the state. something similar has long been traditional ( well he's queer so i beat him up...) for gays you pays your money and you takes your pick... me, i lean strongly towards the "against" argument. i know that having the law treat everyone as equals, regardless of realities, will not in and of itself lead to true equality, and in fact may lead, at times, towards greater inequality. nonetheless, i believe that true equality is at least _possible_ when the laws treat people as being equal, while true equality is, by definition, _impossible_ when the laws themselves mandate unequal treatment of classes of people by the state. -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> as anatole france said; "the law in its impartial majesty forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges." equality of law can be construed in any number of ways. for example the fact that all property thefts, regardless of value, are not punished equally is an inequality which protects those who have a lot of money from having it stolen. you could easily define equality to regard the property in terms of it's significance for the owner. this would a form of equality that would be skewed toward poorer people. in fact, most anti-gay bashing laws are constructed to offer equal protection. they make it an offense to damage people based on a motivation of hatred for sexual orientation. thus the law in its impartial majesty protects hets as well as gays from being bashed. i'm sure that's a great relief to douglas meier. nick nussbaum nickn@eskimo.com po 4738 seattle,wa 98104 
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 does anyone have prez. clinton`s e-mail address. thanks a lot 
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 in article 164905 in talk.politics.misc,decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) 1) is an unborn child a human being at any point during pregnency? in my opinion, at all points during the pregnancy it is human. you'll have to define what you mean by "human being" for me to answer the question as put. a parallel: q: "is a person of color a human being?" a: "you'll have to define what you mean by `human being'." to answer your irrelevant question, yes a person of color is human, but i still don't know what you mean by human being and you have merely begged the question without responding. by trying to inject the notion of race into the discussion, you muddy the waters without adding any insight whatever. the same parallel question could be "is a polydactyl person a human being?" you still have not answered what you mean by human being. please do so. i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being (i.e., a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law) as someone with a functioning brain. could you cite some of those precedents for me, or the basis of this definition? while the law does allow the removal of extraordinary means of sustaining life in cases of brain death, this in itself does not lead to your conclusion of how the law defines a human being. however, at least you defined human being in a tenuous fashion. that is, a "person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law." for my answer to your question, i refer you to roe v wade and subsequent supreme court decisions, which define to what extent a fetus is protected by the constitution and the law. "certain judges have concurred that slavery is not a violation of human rights; therefore, it is not." you won't answer the question and instead drag in irrelevancies. if you want a definition of human being that does not depend on the vagaries of law, but holds solid whatever the law may rule, provide it for me. i would suggest that your blind faith would not likely hold up if the shoe were on the other foot. the "brain life/death" paradigm is one that i suggest as one consistent with other legal definitions. it clearly doesn't matter to you whether an unborn child has any rights or not, however, so the point is lost on you. more irrelevancies. as larry margolis pointed out, the law has made special exceptions in order to include fetuses, but does not follow your version of human being. and as he pointed out, brain death is not a means of determining who has the rights of the living, but rather who has died. there is a significant what i am wondering now is, has your argument so failed you that you feel it necessary to drag out irrelevancies and leave the thread you started? you got answers to your questions when you began baiting me, if you recall, after you had made some ridiculous remarks about adrienne regard and, having been corrected, changed the subject with your remarks about having a discussion of substance. if you really wanted a discussion of substance, why then do you disregard logic and substance in order to toss silly accussations, e.g. "it really doesn't matter to you..." if it matters to you, then why not define human being and seek some substance? you're not going to convince a logical person of the rightness of your position unless you apply some logic and show some meaning to your words. 2) if she is, then why does the mother have the right to kill her when she is in the womb but not after she has passed through the birth canal? because a woman has a right to have any object which threatens her health and is within the confines of her body removed. the other side of the argument would give rights to the fetus that would not be granted to an adult human. if, for example, you were occupying the body of another, for whatever reason or through whatever means, the reason and means being irrelevant, that other would be able to remove or have you removed. if that removal required your demise, i see no reason in law that such a removal could not be effected. rather than examining a hypothetical thought experiment, let us examine a real, though rare, situation: siamese twins. if one siamese twin has the other surgically removed, knowing that it will cause death (and barring some emergency where they will both die anyway), it is is it? have you any support for this assertion? furthermore, your analogy is completely inapplicable. siamese twins have an equal claim to any body parts they have in common. try again. what establishes this "equal claim" beyond your assertion? if it is merely a matter of "which came first", cannot one kill the other since they both have equal claim? what if one has more motor control than the other? does that establish a "superior claim"? as others point out, one is sacrificed for the other depending on which has the better chance at survival. again, your analogy fails. not precedence, but possession makes a difference here. a woman's womb is indisputably her own. also, i see you ignore my statement that you would grant rights to a fetus that would not be granted a born human being. was that due to its inconvenience? you see, the right to life is granted to adult humans in the same sense as it should be to the foetus at some point prior to birth. are siamese twins ever separated in the womb? or is this right you assert for siamese twins, which i don't even think is true as stated or valid as an analogy, one that exists after birth? freivald, your entire argument here is a failure. interesting way of trying to combine two essentially orthogonal concepts. the point is that it is murder for one siamese twin to kill the other, regardless of their status of physiological dependence or interdependence. is it? please cite a precedent and the basis of the ruling. it would be difficult for one siamese twin to kill the other inside the womb, and even if it were possible i doubt that a case could be made for premeditation or neglegence. note the use of the phrase "it should be" in my post. you simply assert things without any support. your analogy is not accurate and your assertions are unsupported. try this on for size. it is not murder for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb. there. we now have equal arguments. but the idea is illogical. for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb would likely be to kill itself as well. the systems are dependent on each other for life. i'm still struggling to see anything analagous here and failing to do so. of course, the situation is not a perfect comparison; it may well be that one siamese twin deliberately initiates oppression or coersion against the other. this is clearly not the case with an unborn child. and this last statement from you is a total non sequitur. the comparison is far worse than you give it credit for. are you going to let this assertion stand on its own also, or do you plan on following up with a reasoned argument? your argument is from fantasy island. your comparison is a total failure, as i have demonstrated already, and has no basis in reality, neither legally nor medically. and for you to assert that it is not a perfect comparison because of the impossible, that of coercion or oppression, is ridiculous. as i said, you give the analogy too little credit for failure. on the one hand you start this by saying you want to take a real, rather than a hypothetical, situation, then you fly off into siamese twins murdering one another in the womb or coercing or oppressing each other in the womb when the reality of the situation you describe in now way matches your version. as i said before, decisions are made regarding which twin lives and dies in situations where they cannot both survive. and, furthermore, as i have already said, there is a difference between an equal claim to organs and a claim that is unequal. you seem to be asserting that a fetus has a claim on a woman's womb. when the fetus is born, what happens to its claim? and by what reason do you assert its claim? 3) if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child, why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment? this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur. can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it? if at some point an unborn child is a human being, the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children. again, what is the relevance? you have established no sense of when that point is, you ignore the significant difference between a fetus and a born child (the dependence of a born child can be transferred to another party, while that of a fetus cannot; a born child does not live within the body of another human being while a fetus does, thereby representing potential and often actual harm to that body, as in the case of one of our talk.abortion participants who suffers from epilepsy and to whom pregnancy represents a significant health risk, or as in the case of a woman i know, who chose to continue her pregnancy, but spent her entire pregnancy confined to a wheelchair and suffering great pain from constriction of some nerve), and your argument is not an argument against abortion generally, but at best an argument against abortion at "some time during the course of pregnancy." again, a quest for common ground. most of the pro-choice people i have spoken to in person (none of them pro-abortion activists) concede that the child has a right to life at some point that supersedes all of the mother's rights except that of her own life. as is often the case in emotionally charged issues, the activists have a very different outlook from the mainstream. you haven't answered the question. the situations are not analagous. the dependence of a born child is not transferred instantaneously; it takes time and effort. incidentally, it is the pro-choice side, not me, arguing that the government should make it easy for parents to abandon their children to the state. again you avoid the question. dependence can be transferred, and it is not as slow as you seem to think. as to the anecdotal evidence of real human tragedy, there is ample on both sides. i would hate to be in the position of the mother in nyc who has to tell her daughter that she lost her arm in a botched abortion attempt. yes, and i'd hate to have been the one to tell dr gunn's children that he was murdered by a religious, "pro-life" fanatic. please do try to stay relevant. the kindest thing i can say about these responses of yours is that i can see you are trying to say something, but the result is a mish-mash of negligible value. sez you. clever comeback. i congratulate you on the readiness of your wit. in article 164906 in talk.politics.misc,decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com [ground covered in another post deleted] if at some point an unborn child is a human being, the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children. and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children, even if necessary to save the child's life. as was this. to make it painfully clear, you are not obligated to donate a kidney to save your child's life under law. again, the confusion between action {deliberately taking away the life of a child} and inaction {refusing to run out in front of a bus to save a child}. what happened to that claim to bodily organs where life is at stake? why does this parent now have an indisputable right to his or her kidney when previously the parent did not, by your standards? what is different about the two situations? i see i have to spell this out for you since the meaning was too subtle for you. in the one case you do not recognize a difference between a fetus and a born child (you ask why a born child cannot be abandoned but a fetus can), and in this case you recognize a significant difference between the fetus and born child where the lives of the two are at stake. you can't have it both ways. action and inaction are irrelevant to the principle, but you are wrong about the inaction anyway. ask any of the numerous women who post here and have borne children how inactive their pregnancy was. to have a healthy, live child, a woman does more than hang out, eat as she chooses, plays volleyball like she always did, drinks at parties with her friends, etc. she behaves very differently, and the provision of her resources to a fetus may be no more voluntary than the beating of her heart, but it is far from inactive. dean kaflowitz 
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 in article 164871 in talk.politics.misc, margoli@watson.ibm.com i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being (i.e., a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law) as someone with a functioning brain. no, if you want to use legal precedent, you should take a look at the model penal code, on which many states base their criminal code: my apologies if i was unclear; i was not trying to start a statutory debate, since there are many (in some cases conflicting) statutes on the books. i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro-choicer imho. cite one of these conflicting statutes. you keep making these assertions, but you haven't supported any of them yet. i am speaking of statutes that conflict with the definition larry posted. why did you delete the code that larry posted? also, the model penal code made perfect sense to me. were you, perhaps, confused by it? also, i am still looking for your definition. the one you used clearly indicates that a fetus is not a human being. this is not likely to please either pro-lifers or pro-choicers, but it is pretty clear from the legal/medical concept of "brain death". "brain death" is a method of deciding when a (known) person is legally dead; there's no analogous concept of "brain birth". i have just coined it. you may object to the paradigm, but it would make our treatment of human life statutorily consistent. circular arguments are usually very consistent. 3) if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child, why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment? this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur. can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it? if at some point an unborn child is a human being, the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children. and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children, even if necessary to save the child's life. there is a confusion here between action and inaction: a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child's life either, but a parent is required to feed his children. again, your desire for consistency disappears when it does not suit your needs. the principle of protecting life is abandoned based on "action versus inaction." not much of a principle. suddenly you recognize that the claim on bodily resources is dependent on circumstances other than this principle of life. that's a very conevnient principle you have there, matt. dean kaflowitz 
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 in the uk there is a tradition of old retired colnels who bore the dinner guests rigid with their descriptions of old campagns. ed is clearly one of this type of people who fails to see when a joke is spent. you are hereby authorized not to laugh. by special dispensation of her hillariness. this offer void where prohibited by law, consumer must pay applicable sales tax..... |bob rahe, delaware tech&comm college | aids, drugs, abortion: - | |internet: bob@hobbes.dtcc.edu | - don't liberals just kill you?| |ci$: 72406,525 genie:bob.rahe |save whales; and kill babies? | 
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 in a previous article, riggs@descartes.etl.army.mil (bill riggs) says: i don't believe in the "wave theory". you don't have to. *it* believes in you. horses. she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back, and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible. well, looking at our new government pals, i'm inclined to agree. i don't much believe in our money, either. :) maybe you'd like to invest in some foreign currency. oh, ho ho! if only you knew! :) yup, i'm definitely checking out foreign currency, thanks to to this newsgroup. it sure doesn't take much thinking to realize what direction the u.s. is headed. (sigh - speculators never learn.) oh, ho ho! speculator?! me?! no, no, i'm going with a sure thing. sure as "bust in california real estate". :) 
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 in a previous article, mconners@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (michael r conners) says: s: the real question: should the feds bail-out steve jobs & next (a la chrysler) so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn't be lost? no. the real question: should the feds bail-out ibm ( a la chrysler ) so that important $80k manufacturing jobs wouldn't be lost? it could be part of the "jobs bill" 
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 in case you missed it on the news....the first 16 haitians of many that tested positive for hiv and were being held on a base in cuba have been flown to the u.s. further a u.s. judge has ruled that they must receive medical treatment or be returned to a place where they could receive same. so guess what folks, we taxpayers get to pick up the tab (just as you might have expected) for people who have never contributed a dime to the u.s. society. i think this government has its priorities all screwed up. if they want to help haitians....how about removing the illegal government, how about giving them development aid? it does not make sense to waste resources on dying non-citizens who will never be productive in either this country or their own. it does not make sense when the same resources applied or even just plain given to poor people in haiti could significantly help 100 people in haiti per 1 aids-infected non-citizen immigrant. 
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 thf2@midway.uchicago.edu said: this sort [of] separate treatment by the law has no place in an equal society; the solution to the fact that some classes are more vulnerable to attack or discrimination is to do what has always been done in response to imbalances in criminal activity and citizen protection: to allocate _law enforcement_ resources to more efficiently and effectively deal with the problems, not to rewrite the _law_ itself. [wdstarr] so how do you feel about increased penalties for killing a policeman? a federal employee? or to use both scalia's and stevens's example, increased penalties for threatening the president? (i'm assuming that, like all good people, you oppose the marital exemption for rape, so i won't bring that up.) in order of your questions, i oppose it, i oppose it, i oppose it and (huh? wha? where did _that_ topic come from and what's it got to do with the discussion at hand? :-) when i was discussing the concept of different criminal laws for crimes against different classes of people (and yes, i do consider laws which allow/mandate enhanced penalties following conviction based upon the convict's attitudes towards the class membership of the victim to fit into that category), the category of classes i had in mind was that of the standard civil rights discussion -- classes based upon race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. having you ask about classes based upon one's _profession_ rather than one's personal characteristics caught me off guard, and i had to think out the question from scratch. what i finally decided was that the law should not recognize such classes because to do so would be to formally and officially declare some people to be of more worth than others, and that would be anathema to the underlying american concept of equal treatment under the law. last year, when a federal crime bill was under consideration which would have expanded the federal death penalty to an additional fifty-plus crimes, including the murder of various federal officers hitherto not protected by that "aura of deterrence," critics pointed out the absurdity of having laws which made the death penalty available for the murder of a federal postal inspector but not for ther murder of a civilian teacher, when the latter [arguably] provided a much more valueable service and therefore would be the greater loss to society. this was an emotionally compelling argument, but even the proponents of that viewpoint appeared to tacitly assume that the state should judge some lives as being more valuable than others on the basis of their "contribution to society." i view that doctrine as being both (a) personally repugnant and (b) repugnant to the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. accordingly, i believe that there should be no laws which give any profession-based class of people special protection (via the mechanism of supplying stronger statutory deterrence of crimes against members of that class), not even police officers, federal officers or high-ranking members of the executive branch of the federal government. -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> 
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 now, that clinton can get e-mail, i'm wondering if congress is also going on line.. if so, does anyone have the address to reach them?? i'm also looking for bill's e-mail address. please e-mail me, i am not a regualar reader of this newsgrouop. 
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 mark anthony young: pps: many americans have a "special legal status" based on "a mere accident of birth". only people born in the us can become president of the us. and since parliament could theoretically replace the queen with _anyone they want_ (even a "ferigner") us law is in one dimension more restictive than uk law as regards birth privileges. this is not just theoretical. note how "ferigner" william iii was imported from holland to kick out local boy james ii, [...] which provided the basis for the denoument of the film which introduced errol flynn to the world. (love interest was olivia de havilland, who went on to appear with flynn in 7 more films.) [exercise for non-old-movie buffs: what film was this?] [exercise for old movie buffs: what were the 7 more films?] the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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 it may be a little late to reply to your tirade and also on an inaapropriate board but along with all of the so called great things the white male has done they have also contributed to society by means of mass genocide, the theft of ideas and cultures, creating and the perptration of historical lies throughouttime among many other horrible activities. but every culture has its upside and its downside. it seems to me that the white male (must be extremely ignorant to qualify for the following - if you're not disregard) and western culture are the only things that look to actively classify things as good or bad, worthy or unworthy (ya dig) it can be seen with slavery and the manipulation and destruction of the american indians civilization. nothing but selfish acts that benefit one group of people (and not even their women get or got respected or regarded as equal - ain't that some stuff) white men - not being specific - but in a lot of cases are just wack or have wack conceptions of how the world is to serve their purpose. just look at david koresh - throughout history (i may be shortsighted on this one so excuse my predjudiced ignorance) only white men associate themselves withbeing god. no other culture is ignorant or arrogant enough to assume such a position. and then to manipulate and mislead all those people. hmmm... i'd say look in your history books but since it seems that history has been written to glorify the exploits of white men you'd only find lies. awww that's enough already from me because this has nothing to do with sex or this board. if ya'd like to continue this discussion e-mail me and we can compare and contrast ideas i like conflict - it's educational when the communcation is good...................... my $.02 worth (i apologize to those who thought this was going to be about sex but i was prompted by a response i found up here) dave lewis - frisky hands man 
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 the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office. which, considering the amount bush&congress added to it, would be a not-inconsiderable achievement. while we're on the subject, i also believe that the supply-side claim that reducing taxes raised revenue is also false, because they typically factor in socsec taxes, which were *raised* a considerable amount, at the same time that income taxes were cut. if you look at income tax revenue alone, it fell after after the cuts began, and didn't recover for several years. by then, record deficits were well entrenched. chew on that awhile. *crunch, crunch* steve soar 
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 |> excerpts from netnews.sci.econ: 5-apr-93 re: supply side economic po.. |> by not a boomer@desire.wrig |> > the deficits declined from 84-9, reaching a low of 2.9% of gnp before |> > the tax and spending hike of 1990 reversed the trend. |> > brett |> is this true ? some more details would be appreciated. |> cheers actually not. brett himself has actually posted the data previously. what declined from 84 to 89, as i remember it, was _percent increase_in_deficit_growth, i.e. the rate of growth of the deficit (2nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time) decreased. would you please define "nth derivative of debt"? last time i asked you seem to have disappeared.... and it's the deficits themselves that came down to 2.9% of gnp. the numbers are posted in the previous posting. brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit cute, paul, but with no numbers you still look foolish. if you keep spending more than you earn, the deficit keeps paul, like many others, is confusing the deficit with the debt. if you keep _borrowing_ at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously, the deficit increases. you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts. not in terms of gnp, the one universally accepted measure of deficits (at least among rigorous economists :) arguments were brilliant. he confirmed, with data, what many of us know with common sense -- the boom of the 80's has nothing to do with government policy, particularly "supply side" policy, since taxes do not "cause" economic activities. people cause economic activity. more can be semantics. lindsey proves otherwise. taxes make people change their economic activities. or shall we debate whether it is the gun, the bullet, or the person who does the killing? explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles. he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century. it will be neat to see how accurate he or whether this gentleman can win the same praise as lindsey. :) "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 excerpts from netnews.sci.econ: 5-apr-93 re: supply side economic po.. by not a boomer@desire.wrig the deficits declined from 84-9, reaching a low of 2.9% of gnp before the tax and spending hike of 1990 reversed the trend. is this true ? some more details would be appreciated. in billions of dollars (%gnp): year gnp receipts outlays deficit debt unempl% admin 1977 1930 355.6 (18.4) 409.2 (21.2) 53.6 (2.8) 709.1 carter 1978 2174 399.6 (18.4) 458.7 (21.1) 59.2 (2.7) 780.4 carter 1979 2444 463.3 (19.0) 503.5 (20.6) 40.2 (1.6) 833.8 carter 1980 2674 517.1 (19.3) 590.9 (22.1) 73.8 (2.8) 914.3 7.9 carter 1981 2986 599.3 (20.1) 678.2 (22.7) 78.9 (2.6) 1003.9 8.4 reagan 1982 3130 617.8 (19.7) 745.7 (23.8) 127.9 (4.1) 1147.0 11.0 reagan 1983 3325 600.6 (18.1) 808.3 (24.3) 207.8 (6.2) 1381.9 10.9 reagan 1984 3688 666.5 (18.1) 851.8 (23.1) 185.3 (5.0) 1576.7 8.6 reagan 1985 3958 734.1 (18.5) 946.3 (23.9) 212.3 (5.4) 1827.5 8.1 reagan 1986 4177 769.1 (18.4) 989.8 (23.7) 220.7 (5.3) 2129.5 7.9 reagan 1987 4442 854.1 (19.2) 1002.1 (22.6) 148.0 (3.4) 2354.3 7.1 reagan 1988 4771 909.0 (19.1) 1064.1 (22.3) 155.1 (3.2) 2614.6 6.3 reagan 1989 5201 990.8 (19.0) 1142.8 (22.0) 152.0 (2.9) 2881.1 bush 1990 1031.2 1251.6 220.4 3190.5 bush 1991 1054.3 1323.0 268.7 3599.0 bush [source: statistical abstract of the us (1990 version), american almanac (1993 version), universal almanac (1993 version), information please almanac (1991 version)] graphically: deficits as a % of gnp, 1981-89 % gnp 7| 6| x | x x 5| x 4| x | x 3| x x | x 2| 1| |____________________________________________________________________________ 0 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 ironically, bush could have frozen spending, kept his "no new taxes" pledge and balanced the budget. "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 but this does not imply that all relationships between youth and adults are exploitative and abusive. the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is "forced" or whether it is an activity that is consensually agreed upon and freely engaged in by the people involved. when a child is "forced" there is often "damage", on the other hand, wholeheartedly agree here. "consensual" relationships are often found to be "positive experiences" for all concerned. why do i find this hard to believe? care to convince us? why not check out some of the scientific research that has been done in this area and convince yourself. research around the world indicates that the issue of coercion is the critical factor. for those interested in research on the topic i can suggest, li et al (england), constantine (united states), and sandfort (the netherlands). i especially like sandfort's research for he actually quotes what the boys who are involved in the relationships have to say. children and sex: new findings, new perspectives by larry constantine & floyd m. martinson (eds.). little brown & co., boston, 1980. boys on their contacts with men by theo sandfort, global academic publishers, elmhurst, new york, 1987. perspectives on paedophilia by brian taylor (ed.). batsford academic & educational ltd., london, 1981. paedophilia: a factual report by frits bernard. enclave, rotterdam, the netherlands, 1985. sexual experience between men and boys by parker rossman. maurice temple smith ltd., middlesex, great britain, 1985. children's sexual encounters with adults by c.k. li, d.j. west & t.p. woodhouse. gerald duckworth & co., london, 1990. yours in liberation, roy radow roy@panix.com ...rutgers!cmcl2!panix!roy north american man/boy love association -for a packet containing a sample bulletin, publications list and membership information send $1.00 postage to: nambla info, dept.rr, po box 174, midtown station, nyc ny 10018. 
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 my mother-in-law, who grew up in germany, doesn't believe in money at all. she started out as a real estate developer, and now raises horses. she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back, and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible. if time is really hard, can a bank selectively call in some mortgage loans early? what if the bank folds, can its creditors call in the 
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 ...his account that is. many important issues, and some not-so important ones, are discussed here on the net on a daily basis. i have just been informed of what i feel is one of the most important things that we could ever discuss -- the out-and-out censorship of one of our fellow posters because some people don't like what he says or thinks. we have all seen the postings here by aj teel. although many of us have not agreed with their content, i'm sure most of us have been at least somewhat interested in them. i, for one, am greatful to live (i thought) in a country where people like mr. teel are allowed to say what they please. if i don't wan't to read it, i can just skip on by, or unsuscribe. but, unfortunately, some people cannot let others live and let live. they feel an overwhelming need to snuff out the little bastards. now it seems that mr. teel will be with us no more, due mainly to our brother, and cheif net police, ted frank. please help aj teel regain net (post) access and correct this injustice. are you on ted's hit list? are your thoughts correct? is your account safe? has your sysadmin been contacted by the thought police? i thought the nlg and the aclu supported people with diverse opinions. not! please read the following forwarded messages from aj teel so that you may understand this vial act for what it is... ------------------------------ forwarded --------------------------------- newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal summary: ted wins the argument by killing his opponent! expires: sender: "a. j. teel, sui juris" (ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu) followup-to: alt.conspiracy distribution: organization: university of colorado, boulder well, well, well... thanks to eck@panix.com (mark eckenwiler) and thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (ted frank), my account is to be axed. i guess that the information i am presenting is just toooo difficult for them to deal with. they (only ted and mark) have complained to my sysadmin some unknown number of times to get me off the net. (in his defense, mark sent only one message and it was not that bad; it has been posted in one of the newsgroups; however, it *was* not directed at me as would be common practice and i am very good at responding via netmail...) while i disagree with ted, i would not send mail to his sysadmin to get him axed. name-calling was not enough; jumping on every post i made was not enough; ignoring specific points when they were not what the desired picture was not enough; simply ignoring me if i am such a kook was not enough. even now i do not wish to have him axed, but i do wish to express my disgust about this. "argumentum ad silence-your-opponent-um"?! i would have thought he would have wanted me to stay around just to have someone to yell about and seem sooo wise... (to himself, i think). the issue that seems to be: "is the following an advertisement?" apparently, ted and mark think so... 1) i posted an article from around one year ago as it was taken *off the net* from last year. if reposting an article constitutes posting an ad, then i am guilty. this post did have a name and address and, yes, a price. if one had posted the address and subscription price of "newsweek", would that be an ad? i get nothing from showing this stuff. 2) i posted a list of documents showing examples of the kind of "proof" that was requested by ted frank. he then complains to my sysadmin saying that i am advertising and, lo and behold, "poof", there goes my account. this one had an address in it! oh, no! i guess that means it is an ad! if you value the alternative view i have been discussing, or value its discussion even if you do not agree with it, i ask that you send a note saying as much to me to show to the sysadmin. they rarely get "ya know, that user on your net was real helpful..." or whatever; they only get "i don't like what that user is doing because...". please do not send the note to the sysadmin. i need to take it to them in a manner that has at least a chance of getting through. in my files here are hundreds of responses from people saying "thanks for the info" or "could you send me such and such?" or "your posts are very interesting... keep it up." and only a handfull of "go aways". but, i guess the fact that i have decided not to waste my time trying to convince ted is a net offense[tm] of such magnitude as to warrant a message complaining about me. (knock, knock..."my name is ted and and this is mark... we're from the thought police. seems you have some pretty dangerous ideas here, and we're here to confiscate them...") nwo indeed! guess i will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new plan... thanks ted and mike. hope you are happy. i will be on for a few more days and then... that's all folks! your comments and support are requested. i can no longer post to news. i ask what this has accomplished... is there some benefit from making alternative views simply vanish? not in my book. seems the easiest way to win an argument is to make the opposing side shut up. images of waco.... ah, but alas... and all this when i am in the process of typing in a letter to me from the tax collector saying that a lien was removed due to a letter that i wrote challenging jurisdiction. oh, well... it takes time to come up with the info requested, and i was just getting started. it should be noted that ted frank has been accused publicly over 40 times of being an nwo supporter and has never made an statements to the contrary. further, what are ted frank's motivations for getting me axed? we all know that some people are getting paid to collect info on people on the net that are of "interest" to the government, and ted sure seems to have a *personal* interest in debunking me. hmmm... just who does he work for? the university of chicago which he "attends"(?) is well known as one of the biggest nwo supporters... and finally, if anyone would be able to help me find a new account here in the boulder/denver area, i would greatly appreciate it. i am in the process of installing linux and so will be able to do uucp or maybe a tc/ip connection. any help here would be greatly appreciated. since i am longer be able to post news and will no longer have email very soon, i hope that anyone who wishes to contact me will do so via: a. j. teel, sui juris c/o usps box 19043 boulder, colorado, u.s.a. postal zone: 80308-9043 or leave me voice mail at: c/o (408) 281-0434 selected messages from ted frank via sysadmin follows: with explicit reservation of all rights (u.c.c. 1-207) regards, -a. j. teel-, sui juris (ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu) from barb@locutus.cs.colorado.edu mon apr 5 14:39:21 1993 received: from locutus.cs.colorado.edu by dendrite.cs.colorado.edu with smtp id aa14777 (5.65c/ida-1.4.4 for <ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu>); mon, 5 apr 1993 14:39:19 -0600 received: by locutus.cs.colorado.edu with smtp id aa15908 (5.65c/ida-1.4.4 for <ajteel>); mon, 5 apr 1993 14:36:54 -0600 message-id: <199304052036.aa15908@locutus.cs.colorado.edu> to: "ted frank" <thf2@midway.uchicago.edu> cc: cstmr@locutus.cs.colorado.edu, csops@locutus.cs.colorado.edu, ajteel@locutus.cs.colorado.edu, vaxops@locutus.cs.colorado.edu reply-to: trouble@cs.colorado.edu in-reply-to: your message of mon, 05 apr 93 13:29:06 cdt status: or please ask ******* to stop advertising his wares on the network. thank you. [editor's note: ^^^???] [start of document: doclist.txt.lis ] documents now available bill medina, sui juris post office box 70400 sunnyvale, california, u.s.a. postal zone: 94086-0400 (79 lines deleted). resolution: thank you. he has been warned before. we are taking action. barbara j. dyker department of computer science manager, computer operations campus box 430b, ecee00-69 barb@cs.colorado.edu university of colorado (303) 492-2545 boulder, co 80309-0430 from barb@locutus .cs.colorado.edu mon apr 5 15:50:36 1993 received: from locutus.cs.colorado.edu by dendrite.cs.colorado.edu with smtp id aa15809 (5.65c/ida-1.4.4 for <ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu>); mon, 5 apr 1993 15:50:34 -0600 received: by locutus.cs.colorado.edu id aa16069 (5.65c/ida-1.4.4 for ajteel); mon, 5 apr 1993 15:50:27 -0600 message-id: <199304052150.aa16069@locutus.cs.colorado.edu> received: by next.mailer (1.87.1) received: by next mailer (1.87.1) to: ajteel@locutus.cs.colorado.edu cc: vaxops@locutus.cs.colorado.edu, usenet@locutus.cs.colorado.edu, mozer@locutus.cs.colorado.edu status: or i had already warned you that your inappropriate use of your account here must stop. you have used your account here as a soapbox for your political "sui juris" agenda. to: ajteel@locutus.cs.colorado.edu also, if you are reported for any more commercial announcements, your account may be disabled. [editor's note: what commercial advertisemnets are we talking about?] to: "a.j. teel" <ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu> as long as they aren't causing any problems, we typically don't mind. ...we have received two complaints about the content of your messages so far (at least one of which i consider valid) - which already constitutes excessive in my book. just don't let it happen again. [editor's note: i *wonder* who the other post was from??!] from laszlo@eclipse.cs.colorado.edu thu mar 18 01:40:15 1993 to: "ted frank" <thf2@midway.uchicago.edu> cc: cstmr@eclipse.cs.colorado.edu, csops@eclipse.cs.colorado.edu reply-to: trouble@cs.colorado.edu in-reply-to: your message of wed, 17 mar 93 21:05:59 cst bounced names: garry@research.att.com bill@kean.usc.mun.ca jad@hopper.virginia.edu kima@gator.rational.com hello all: i am having trouble reaching the following (keeps bouncing). if you sent me mail and haven't gotten a response, check here. also, can anyone tell me why these are bouncing? i used the reply in elm which should send it right back, right? with explicit reservation of all rights (u.c.c. 1-207) regards, -a. j. teel-, sui juris (ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu) [editor's note: the reason for posting the header lines from the bounced messages was to show what the problem was and hopefully correct it.] [ted frank] it's inexcusable to post 150 lines of bounced mail headers to four a simple four-line post would have been sufficient. resolution: [lazlo] yes i agree. but our policy is to not watch everypost someone here we generally let the net itself take care of inappropriate postings by flaming the user into shape (which i assume this is ment to be). we (cs operations) don't like to get involved in this stuff (unless its illegal, repetitive posts of 1gig gifs, harassment, or something else that offends the community in general). my suggestion is that you take it to email and explain what a post for bounces should look like or tell him to rtfm [editor's note: obviously, ted had no such intention of doing so...] ted frank | "however teel should have mentioned that though thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | his advice is legally sound, if you follow it the u of c law school | you will probably wind up in jail." standard disclaimers | -- james donald, in misc.legal [editor's note: from this .sig, it seems obvious that ted frank has an axe to grind... why that particular quote?.... hmmm... sure makes me wonder.] | lance w. bledsoe lwb@im4u.cs.utexas.edu (512) 258-0112 | | "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." | 
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 why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel? do the situations in bosnia, tibet, china, etc. not merit your comment? as far as i am aware, we have not sent close to $100 billion dollars to let's not exaggerate. i notice you did not offer an alternative number. try this one on for size..... by the year 2000, american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy. i will let you look up the number. ok, i admit i have no hard data on this. why don't you help me with this? if you would compile a commented list of all grants, un-repaid loans (if any), and direct aid, i'd be very interested to see it. if you could give me references from, for example, congressional budget authorization hearings, i could look them up here and i'd be happy to post a verification of your otherwise, i'll try my hand at this, but unfortunately i won't have sufficient time available until the end of this month, so the results would be delayed. let me know if you're interested in doing this. mossad special agent id314159 media spiking and mind control division los angeles offices _________pratice safe .signature! prevent dangerous signature virii!_______ guildenstern: our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a summons ... there must have been a moment, at the beginning, where we could have said -- no. but somehow we missed it. 
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 ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu (a.j. teel) writes... in <1993apr1.141455.16433@colorado.edu>, ajteel@dendrite.cs.colorado.edu sez: (i would have thought you would have found better means of refuting or responding to the substantive points and information in the s.b. the s.b. needs no refutation by me. the patent absurdity of your beloved great book speaks for itself. your ignorance is clearly showing itself again, mark. why don't you read the post and show us all where the silver bulletin is wrong. it is an expose' of the corruption and fraud in government. or do you feel that our wonderful state is just nifty and sweet? fine. if you think it's an expose of corruption and fraud, please prevent a jury question. don't just reassert your opening statement. for those in the dark, i wrote to teel's sysadmin noting that a) he wastes bandwidth by posting identical messages (long ones) to several newsgroups independently (instead of cross-posting), and b) he has improperly used his posts to advertise goods for sale. a) i was requested to post to those groups and they were getting deleted... by whom? b) the "goods for sale" was a method of showing the source and obtaining further info... and the message in question was retrieved in its entirety from the net. i simply reposted it from one year ago. would there be a complaint if i had posted an article from "newsweek" then posted the address and subscription price? how about the subscription info for the american law review? bit of a double standard? yeah... think so... no indication that was what happened until now. editing down is always possible. readers more careful than a.j. will note that the complaint (appended below) expressly disclaims any wish to suppress teel's postings merely because they are infantile, irrational, and tedious. more name calling, mark? is that your best shot? oh, i see. the reason for your sending that letter had nothing to do with your opinion of my information... right. clearly your motivations were the best interest of all of those poor users who could not speak for themselves. if we weren't talking about attempted censorship(sp?), it would be funny... further, your "perception" (for want of a better term) is not the feedback that i have been getting via email and others. the "keep it up!"'s outnumber the "go away!"'s at least 20 to 1. it would be interesting to hear who the responding parties are. i, for one, have no intention of being a slave. you may be so if you like. just remember where you heard that on tribute day (april 15). i am not a 14th amendment taxpayer/slave/ssn holder/etc. are you? for discussion purposes only: don't let the irs see this, mr. teel. and by the way, the reference to ucc 1-207 is made in pari materia with my common-law rights. 1-207 is the recourse and 1-103 is the remedy. and, as has been noted more times than we care to count, about as likely to stand up in court as the twenty-seven eight by ten color glossy pictures the stockbridge, mass., police, took for use as evidence against arlo guthrie. (as anyone who knows alice's restaurant is aware, he pleaded guilty to littering, was fined $50, and told to pick up the garbage.) daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees "jointly, as tenants in common, with equal rights and interest in said land, and to the survivor thereof, in fee simple. . . . to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto, equally, jointly, as tenants in common, with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives, and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other." the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy. germain v. delaine, 294 ala. 443, 318 so.2d 681 (1975). 
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 well, the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding, et cetera have been out there for a while now. there has been no refutation to date. have the nay-sayers finally given up as defeated? sure would like to hear there reasons for disbelief at this point. probably because you have yet to respond to the refutation i've posted. teel, it's bad enough you post this bs, it's even worse that you don't even try to defend it when it gets torn to pieces, but then posting that no one's looked at it and gloating when all facts point to the contrary point to a severely deluded mind. what i found interesting about conklin's letter is the 6 cases he has won against the irs. now, assuming that these cases really exist and were one by him (anyone checked?) they may have nothing to do with his major tax claim. the irs fought one of his deductions. defending your deductions seems puny when you believe that there is no need to file in the first place! bernard silver gte laboratories bsilver@gte.com (617) 466-2663 
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 #yet, when a law was proposed for virginia that extended this #philosophy to cigarette smokers (so that people who smoked away #from the work couldn't be discriminated against by employers), #the liberal gov. wilder vetoed it. which shows that liberals don't #give a damn about "best person for the job," it's just a power #play. of course clayton ignores the fact that employers pay health insurance, and insurance for smokers is more expensive than for non-smokers. -greg hennessy, university of virginia usps mail: astronomy department, charlottesville, va 22903-2475 usa internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu uucp: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w 
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 # #are you saying that: # #(1) people voted for hitler, and he became reich chancellor, in good # #part because he used bully boys to attack communists, # hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for # him. i'm not sure if you meant to imply that or not, but i just thought # i'd bring that up. hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party. that's not a huge difference in a parliamentary system. your statement is a common misconception, but it just isn't true. in the german weimar system, the chancellor was not necessarily the leader of the largest reichstag party; the chancellor was appointed by the president and generally was the leader of a coalition of parties who could form an effective majority in the reichstag. beyond that, the implication that hitler rose to the chancellorship because a majority of germans wanted nazi rule is false as well. before president hindenburg appointed hitler chancellor in january 1933, the german people did not show a particular desire to be led either by hitler or by the nazi party. these are the results of the march 1932 election for president, the closest hitler ever came to direct election: hindenburg 49.6%, hitler 30.1%, thaelmann 13.2%, duesterberg 6.8%. in the runoff election in april the results were: hindenburg 53%, hitler 36.8%, thaelmann 10.2%. so we can see that hitler personally was supported by only about a third of german voters. similarly, the nazi party never received more than 37% of the vote in reichstag elections. that occurred in july 1932. in the november 1932 election the nazis *lost* two million votes and 34 seats, down from 230 to 196 out of the 608 in the reichstag. comparitively, the socialists had 121 and the communists 100. the communists had gained 11 seats, and the german national party, which had supported the previous government, had picked up a million of the nazis' lost votes to gain 15 seats (up to 52). i think the other large party was the catholic center party (i don't know how many seats they had but i think they were declining), and there were numerous other small parties. thus the nazi vote was on the decline at the time hitler was appointed what brought hitler to power was *not* the demand of the german people for hitler or the nazis to run things, but the inability of the other parties to put their differences behind them in favor of forming an effective government for the country. germany did not have an enduring democratic tradition, and their parliamentary system lacked effective center parties that favored the interests of the majority of the population. instead what they had was a number of small parties who were unable to put aside their own specific objectives in order to combine against the nazis, who were out to end the democratic process. in fact, part of the problem was that some of the other parties with substantial representation, like the communists, were also out to end the democratic process, but with different results in mind, and generally didn't mind seeing parliamentary democracy go under. germany had already had a non-nazi chancellor with a majority coalition for five months while the nazis had been the largest reichstag party, and there certainly was no danger of a revolution in favor of the nazis. if anything the nazis were starting to get desperate because they had failed to get enough support to make hitler president and their popular vote had begun to decline. hitler was not hindenburg's first choice to be chancellor, not even his second choice. first, von papen had been chancellor since june 1932. after the november election when the nazis *lost* seats, hindenburg first prevailed on von papen to remain as chancellor. but there were intrigues behind his back and support for him was lacking. so then hindenburg turned to von schleicher, who became chancellor for two months. eventually he too was unable to hold together a working coalition of parties to oppose the nazis, who refused to participate in any government that was not led by a nazi chancellor. some of the nazi leadership, particularly gregor strasser who was the #2 man in the party at the time, wanted to participate in a coalition government. but others, knowing the party's support was waning, figured that their best hope to gain power lay in undermining the democratic process. nevertheless, the country was governed for seven months by chancellors who were not nazis, even though the nazis were the largest reichstag party. the failure of these men to achieve a working coalition was due to the inability of their coalition parties to work together. here's how william shirer puts it in _the rise and fall of the third reich_: the cardinal error of the germans who opposed nazism was their failure to unite against it. at the crest of their popular strength, in july 1932, the national socialists had attained but 37 percent of the vote. but the 63 percent of the german people who expressed their opposition to hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united, however temporarily, to stamp it out. true, the german people supported hitler after he became chancellor. but that doesn't change the fact that there was not overwhelming support for him *before* he was in power. the german people were not crying out for hitler to take over, no matter how bad economic conditions were. the leftist parties (socialists/communists) probably had more support in total than the nazis. hitler used the fact that others were passively or actively willing to see the government paralyzed as a means to taking it over. eric smith erics@netcom.com erics@infoserv.com ci$: 70262,3610 
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 |> in fact, no one has such a list. the clinton package as presently proposed |> includes a variety of recommended spending areas and dollar amounts. it |> does not include a line-by-line list of every project that would be funded. |> (congress may include such line items in the bill when it passes. |> likewise, it may prohibit spending for specific projects as amendments to |> the bill. such amendments, positive and negative, are often pointed to |> by those who propose a "line item veto" or "enhanced recision" power for |> the president.) |> some of the $16 billion package is in the form of "block grants" to states |> and localities. this is why i asked to be 'enlightened'. you are making claims about what 'is' or 'is not' part of this program. but if the "block grants" go to states and cities, the mayors list is very relivent. |> i'd suggest contacting your local officials, reading a newspaper with |> good coverage of congress (washington post, ny times), or if you're |> serious about paying attention to these issues, get copies of congressional |> quarterly at your library or have your representative put you on the |> mailing list for the congressional record. (it's free.) but be prepared |> to invest more time in the effort than it takes to watch the evening |> news or read your local paper. okay scarasm does deserve sacrasm, but i already contact my local officals, my congress rep., senators, watch evening news, news programs, and c-span. |> in addition to the cherry picking that went on with the mayors' wish list, |> congressional republicans selected wish list projects from a variety of |> federal agencies, based apparently upon how silly the names of the projects |> sounded. i'm not even sure if they bothered to correlate a potential |> expenditure of an agency in clinton's bill with a potential project from |> the same agency, but it is clear that the effort was to make clinton's |> potential expenditures appear to be linked to projects with absurd |> names. (not to be taken seriously any more than equivalent tactics by |> democrats would have been in the reagan/bush era.) the fact is that primetime (tm of abc) has had numberous reposts on such waste programs that already exist. again, if we are truely intrested in eliminating the debt, we must remove the deficit, and do away with all pork !!! |> i realize that it is tempting to believe that government is in the hands |> of clowns who are dishonest at best. but such simplistic analysis does |> little to advance the cause of public education. there have been several books written on gov. waste, network news programs from time to time devote segments to this, and there have been bills proposed that significantly reduces expenditures without touching external programs by changing the way 'congress does business' (and make it more efficent). true, blame is easy, but also is spending someone else's money. clinton ran on a platform that he would '...not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for these (his) programs'. he has proposed a program that is not specific, that counts on tax hikes to pay for. ken m. edwards, bell northern research, research triangle park, nc (919) 481-8476 email: cnc23a@bnr.ca ham: n4zbb all opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or co-workers, family, friends, congress, or president. "you'd better call my dad...my mom's pretty busy." - chelsea clinton 
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 i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti-west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress. i sure know who i want to back. could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a if we had backed him strongly early on i doubt there would be the problem there is now. many russians became disillusioned with democracy and reforms when they felt, rightly imo, that the west didn't care. yeltsin was virtually promised massive aid (once bush got over his gorby-mania.) this probably kept him from dismantling the congress and calling for new elections. well, the aid didn't come through and we didn't make sure it went to the proper places and now the anti-reformers are gaining strength where before they were in have you considered a non-interventionist policy? if market reform does happen, russia will certainly get *private* capital at *private* risk to help their economy. they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason. if they don't reform, then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help if they don't reform i don't believe in giving them money. however, i think this is too important to take a non-interventionist approach. this is what really bugs me about libertarianism -- it sounds like 'it'll all be the same in a hundred years time. no need to do anything.' how does this affect us? well, we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we'd feel something. a massive breakup of a country that spans 1/6th the planet is bound to have affects here. (of course, there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies (or struggling democracies).) if a $1.6 billion gift was that important to our well being, couldn't it be raised voluntarilly? people already give over $100 billion a year to despite the wishes of libertarians, this society is a far way, and getting farther, from being libertarian. perhaps voluntary gifts would work if we had the proper framework but we do not have it. we have to face the problem *now*, not in x years when we have a libertarian dream society. right now there are huge stumbling blocks to trade, let alone charity. there are still limitations to high-tech exports. nasa can't buy proton launch vehicles from them. sure, the market may be able to help a great deal but it can't right now. there are too many obstacles. instead of fighting against the aid you should be fighting to tear down the obstacles the market and charities have to face. seriously. everyone has different opinions on what is stupid. my two "causes" are aid to russia and a strong space program. someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish. that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy. instead of gridlock on a massive scale, we only have gridlock on a congressional scale. it seems instead of gridlock on any scale, we have aid to russia, expensive space programs, national charity that doesn't help the poor, and probably, studies of drunken goldfish. i think *limited* government is more key than how democratic it is. well, i think limited government is primarily democratic due to it being limited. but the main question is how do you transform a state-run economy and monolithic government into something that even remotely looks like ours? (btw, sometimes it seems that our government is trying to go the opposite direction) it is not going to be painless and not going to be easy. we simply cannot wait to help when they *have* the 'proper' government. they'll never get there without the aid. it may be too late already. btw, who is to decide 'stupid?' this is just like those who want to impose their 'morals' on others -- just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against. that was an opinion, and libertarians are very big on free speech. and i'm just excercising mine. actually, my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party. it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim. if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian. consider it a compromise. how much money would your fellow russia-aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren't using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don't support? as i also said above, another problem i have is with *transformation*. a libertarian society is not going to happen painlessly or overnight. i have seen nothing about how to take our current government and society and turn it into a minimal government and a responsible self-sufficient populace. we could do that 100 years ago but not now. people have been saying that for hundreds of years. they didn't have nuclear weapons 100 years ago. nor instantaneous communications nor travel to virtually anyplace on the earth in less than a day. like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making. all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information, than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues. yes, depend on the rulers of the free market and the businesses. rulers do emerge *somewhere* and they will never represent the opinions of every person on the planet. there must be checks and balances. checks on the government when it gets out of bounds and checks on industry when it gets out of bounds. putting all your hopes on the benevolence of the market is, to me, just like putting all your hopes on the benevolence of disclaimer: all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else 
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 # having completely # dived into the abyss of believing that there are no queers in the world # who think differently from the child-molestation-advocating minority on # soc.motss, he doesn't even notice that he's starting a sentence with # "they believe" when the referent of that "they" is millions of people. # "...so few as to be irrelevant..." if you don't want to be lumped together as a group, stop insisting on being treated as a member of a group. please point out where i have said i even _was_ a member of that group, much less asked to be treated as such, much less insisted upon it. sexual orientation is not defined by the anti-discrimination law that was passed last year. pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation? wait a minute. you've been claiming for quite a while now that pedophilia, according to ca state law, is a sexual orientation. now your position is that the law doesn't specifically exclude it? you know damn well what's going to happen. some guy in a nambla t-shirt's going to apply at a day-care, they're going to turn him down, he's going to take it to court, and the court's going to rule that sexual orientation is defined as homosexuality, heterosexuality, or unless and until that court decides that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, you have no business saying so. # "silence = death" pin or something. they turn me down because of # that. i wholeheartedly support their right to take this action. i wouldn't do it myself, unless it was something like the nambla t-shirt. despite the fact that all homosexuals are lying bastards? # how about: a black man applies for a job at a bank. the bank decides, # based on statistics, a black person would be more likely to steal # money, and denies the man the job. would you support the bank's right # to this freedom? i support their right to do so [deletia] but [deletia] so, for example, you are opposed to the civil rights act of 1964? here's the law that was passed and signed by the governor: the people of the state of california do enact as follows: 1 section 1. the purpose of this act is to codify 2 existing case law as determined in gay law students v. 3 pacific telephone and telegraph, 24 cal. 3d 458 (1979) 4 and soroka v. dayton hudson corp., 235 cal. app. 3d 654 5 (1991) prohibiting discrimination based on sexual 6 orientation. 7 sec. 2. section 1102. is added to the labor code, to 8 read: 9 1102.1. (a) sections 1101 and 1102 prohibit 10 discrimination or disparate treatment in any of the terms 11 and conditions of employment based on actual or 12 perceived sexual orientation. 13 (b) this section shall not apply to a religious 14 association or corporation not organized for private 15 profit, whether incorporated as a religious or public 16 benefit corporation. there's no "for purposes of this act, the term 'sexual orientation' will be defined as" section? no definitions anywhere? did they run this through the state congress on an accelerated schedule or something? jamie mccarthy internet: k044477@kzoo.edu applelink: j.mccarthy 
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 -> > besides which, we don't *want* clinton assasinated, because that would make h -> > a martyr a la jfk. -> > it's a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace, after -> > watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down t -> > toilet. -> > assuming, of course, that the riots a fortnight from now don't do it for him. -> he'd have to go a far ways to run things down as bad as reagan and bush -> did. we didn't have riots but bush got dumped out on his spotty behind. -> we'll see in 4 years. -> pope charles slack in our time! -> ?s you need to stop watching tv and start reading some history. jason c. austin j.c.austin@larc.nasa.gov 
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 |> thought others on the net might be interested in a selection of findings |> from the new york times/cbs news poll on national health care. i'll leave |> it to doug fierro to enter the entire article if he chooses. what follows |> is a selection of the findings. (paraphrased without permission. any |> errors are mine, not the times. the ny times doesn't make mistakes.) |> [poll results deleted] the economic and political ignorance of most americans can be truly scary. price controls and government intervention. the surest route to disaster. it's amazing, people never seem to learn from history (or common sense). price controls do not, and cannot work. i would have thought our last experiment in the 70's would have been enough to dampen the belief that price controls can actually work. as for government intervention, people never seem to get the irony of what the are saying. we are told that entitlements are the biggest portion of the budget and they must be 'controlled'. we are presented with horror stories of waste and fraud in almost all government agencies. we are shown stories about the miserable treatment our veterans get in our government run hospitals. we are just now seeing stories about how social security isn't going to cut it in the future (as if that should come as any surprise). and yet, people choose to ignore all of that and believe in the fairy tale of the government coming to the rescue. simply amazing. james w. howe internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu university of michigan uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh ann arbor, mi 48103-4943 
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 the real question: should the feds bail-out steve jobs & next (a la chrysler) so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn't be lost? "...a la chrysler"?? okay kids, to the nearest thousand, how many dollars did the government spend to "bail out" chrysler? more than zero you say? bzzzzzzzzzt. wrong answer. |don wiggins, german-irish-american | success is getting what you want. | | & lead scout for the baby boomers | happiness is wanting what you get. | |internet: wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu | -- brother dave gardner | 
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 if the heading is true, mr. frank should be ashamed of himself. nothing makes me gag more than people who don't respect the rights of others to voice their opinions. my idol lenny bruce once commented about "that asshole time magazine" when they advocated censorship of his material. time actually sided with the cops' and their arresting of bruce at his shows, whereby he routinely would say "cocksucker", then the cops would rush the stage to arrest him. my, how the times haven't changed... i can't help but think of how lenny would be received in today's politically correct arena. heck, i even support the right of neo nazis to speak their opinions and march down the streets. and before mr. frank or anyone else makes any wisecracks about anti-semitism...i'm jewish, a longtime member of aipac and the jnf, and have contributed over $1000 apiece to these fine groups. i'm a regular contributor to every pro-israel group i can find, but i still support the right of people like arf to speak up and vomit his propaganda. i want to know just who these people are !!! i'm basing all this on the assumption that mr. frank did indeed write to some sysadmin requesting mr. teel to be admonished. if this is not the case, i hereby retract these nasties directed toward him. if not, i stand against mr. frank and his trashing of the first amendment. philip stromer 
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 |> the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level |> above where it was when reagan left office. |which, considering the amount bush&congress added to it, would be a |not-inconsiderable achievement. |while we're on the subject, i also believe that the supply-side claim that |reducing taxes raised revenue is also false, because they typically factor in you need to hop over to talk.politics.misc. wee have been chewing on this gem for awhile. the challenge has been made to name a single supply sider who ever said this. for the last three weeks the challenge has gone unmet. i issue the same challenge to you. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 and ms. regard, please don't give us the trite "you can't legislate morality" nonsense again: there is little else that is legislated, including the moral concept of "rights". really? pure socialism had this belief, and fell flat on its ass by attempting to follow such reasoning. suppose you pass a law that states that i must love my neighbour, regardless of race, religion, etc. how exactly do you plan to enforce such a law? better yet, how do you plan to measure compliance? and even if you overcome those two obstacles, how will you ever know if i have become *more moral* or not? you either missed the point or are being somewhat disingenuous; i have never heard anyone suggest that you can legislate what people think. laws are based on either expediency (i.e. traffic laws) or morality (i.e. human rights), as far as i can tell, and the majority are based on the once more around the racetrack. see the original statement that it is nonsense to believe that you cannot legislate morality. i simply stated that they can pass all the laws they want but not a single one of them will make you or i more moral people. they may make us act in a moral manner, but our actions are only a reflection of the unwillingness to risk punishment. they say nothing about whether we have become more moral or not. perhaps the distinction is too fine. matt freivald "i'm not a feminist -- i'm for equal rights!" if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one! if you don't believe in slavery, don't own one! if you don't believe in murder, don't commit one! pro child. pro family. pro life. these are my opinions only and not those of my employer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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 details that you are seeking, is that the grahm-rudman budget controls were working. in fact, they were working so well that unless the feds did something, they were going to have to start cutting pork. so bush and the democrats got together in a budget summit and replaced grahm-rudman with the now historic grand compromise in which bush yea, it turned out that gramm-rudman was a sham to fool the voters into accepting the borrow-and-spend policies of the last 12 years. as it turned out, the taxes killed the reagan expansion and the caps anyone can expand the economy by chargeing $3 trillion on their credit cards. big deal. deficit spending only expands the economy in the short term. in the long term it shrinks the economy for numerous reasons. i would have much preferred that the taxpayers had that $3 trillion instead. the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office. chew on that awhile. if reagan had kept his campaign promise to balance the budget by 1983, there would have been no need for bush or clinton to raise taxes. and all reagan had to do was balance that puny carter deficit. chew on that awhile. tom kimball openconnect systems 2711 lbj freeway, suite 800 tk@oc.com dallas, tx 75006 
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 -> >now let me get this straight. after a nice, long rant about -> >how people need to take personal responsibility for their -> >economic and social lives, all of a sudden 1960's radicals -> >(such as me, i guess) are responsible for poor people's -> >lifestyles? tell me how that works--or do you think that poor -> >people are just too dumb to think for themselves? -> >there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family -> >and support systems in general among this nation's poor. -> >somehow i don't think murphy brown--or janis joplin--is at -> >the top of any sane person's list. -> >you want to go after my generation's vaunted cultural -> >revolution for a lasting change for the worse, try so-called -> >"relevant" or "values" education. hey, it seemed like a good -> >idea at the time. how were we to know you needed a real -> >education first--i mean, we took that for granted. -> the 1960's generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible. -> the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their -> kids would not want for anything -- going overboard and creating a nation of -> brats. -> consider the contrast between two famous events in july of 1969. -> apollo 11 and woodstock. -> which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and -> reverted to the cultural level of primitives (defecation in public etc.). -> and which group assembled, took care of itself, and dispersed with no damage, -> no deaths, no large numbers of drug problems .... wasn't woodstock also called the biggest parking lot in history? they rejected society and went back to nature in their parent's cars. jason c. austin j.c.austin@larc.nasa.gov 
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 # >we already kill people (death penalty), and that costs even more # >money, so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric # >way of justice. # but the death penalty is right. # and how expensive can an execution be? i mean, i think rope, cyanide # (for the gas), or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are # affordable. # now, perhaps lethal injection might be expensive, in that case, let's # return to the more efficient methods employed in the past. oh, sure, the death *penalty* is fairly inexpensive, but the trial and sentencing can run millions. --strychnine unless you wanna cut costs by skipping the trial and sentencing... you murderous little rat-bastard why as a matter of fact, i was thinking of that as a way to make the system more efficient. and the only murderous rat-bastards are yeah, simon's no rat-bastard, he's the head attack puppy :-) 
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 # >we already kill people (death penalty), and that costs even more # >money, so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric # >way of justice. # but the death penalty is right. # and how expensive can an execution be? i mean, i think rope, cyanide # (for the gas), or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are # affordable. # now, perhaps lethal injection might be expensive, in that case, let's # return to the more efficient methods employed in the past. oh, sure, the death *penalty* is fairly inexpensive, but the trial and sentencing can run millions. that's assuming our attack puppy is willing to grant people trials in his new order. and why the hell would i waste my time doing that?? (to a convicted criminal getting a death sentence) 'go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200' (judge laughing) hey puppy, you are getting further around the bend every day. but i wouldn't miss your adolescent ravings for the world, everyone needs a good laugh now and then. :-) 
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 if someone beats up a homosexual, he should get charged for assault and battery. why must we add gay bashing to the list? isn't this a sort of double jeopardy? or am i just being a fascist again? () to deter an epidemic of "gay bashing" that has not been deterred by assault laws. so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight? silly me, thinking that the issue was that we are all people, to be treated equally. thanks for straightening me out. wrong, if a bunch of faggots from the tenderloin decide to go straight bashing and they selectively target a heterosexual man and beat the bloody fuck out of him, they would get charged as well under all the federal laws that exist about violation of civils rights. the focus of their intent is his sexual orientation, and so the law applies to them as well. the national government retains the right to make any laws necessary to sufficiently deter and punish any crime against someone's civil rights until that behavior becomes so well punished that nobody even tries it! the fact is, that at last count, gays were not beating straights for their sexual orientation. thus, the law is getting applied only to the straights who indulge themselves. the federal government or judiciary has the right to enforce the 14th amendment guarantee of equal protection under law even if it takes 1000 possible charges against people who would violate them. go read your constitutional law. we broke the back of the kkk's harrassment campaign with the same strategy in the early 1900's. so many went to jail and for so long that it cut the heart out of the kkk. () no, it is not "double jeopardy." a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes. i think what you meant to say here was, "with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state, someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade." a single act should never merit more than on charge. that's almost like if four cops got acquitted from cruel and unusual punishment charges, and the country went and tried them again and again until they... oh.... never mind. this "mutation" as you call it, protects your little butt too, if you happen to be somewhere where you're the wrong "shade" for somebody else's taste. if it can be shown that the motive for the assault on you was racially motivated, then the full power of these extra laws that bring more charges and punishments will come against those who harmed you. the first use of such laws was well over a hundred years ago, and constitutional scholars of all conviction recognize that this right reserved to the federal government is well established and not just some short-lived peculiarity, too! go read some constitutional law for awhile. maybe you'll get it. douglas c. meier dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu * richard steven walz rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (408) 429-1200 * * 515 maple street #1 * without safe and free abortion women are * * santa cruz, ca 95060 organ-surrogates to unwanted parasites.* * * real men would never accept organ-slavery and will protect women. * 
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 and what difference does it make? if homosexuals should not be treated as equals with heterosexuals in the eyes of the law then it doesn't matter if they comprise an overwhelming majority of the population, and if they should then it doesn't matter if, numerically, they're only an infinitesimal minority, right? and if it makes no difference, then shoving a false number down my throa shouldn't be a high priority. after all, why should a minority group ne d to inflate their numbers in order to justify the rights they claim they des i.e. extra privileges they ask for? if someone beats up a homosexual, he should get charged for assault and battery. why must we add gay bashing to the list? isn't this a sort of double jeopardy? or am i just being a fascist again? douglas c. meier | this space for rent northwestern university, acns | this university is too commie- | lib pinko to have these views. | dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu you know, i have thought about the issue of if someone beats up a homosexual, or a black person, etc., should the crime be specified as something special. shit, beating up anybody, regardless of race and sexual orientation should be a very serious crime. if you pick out those crimes which are committed against the opposite sex, different race, or a different sexual orientation, is this a form of favoring those groups over other groups. hmm.. i mean, i think that a crime committed against all people should be treated the same. but, i know that there are many people out there who are very prejudice against people who are different than they are. and perhaps hate crimes laws are the only way to punish the bastards appropriately. but, why should a person who commits a crime against a wealthy protestant white by a wealthy protestant white be treated on a lower level. isn't this discrimination against the wealthy white person. hmm.. any input out there? as a black person, i here about all sorts of stories where fellow blacks are persecuted and beat up because of their race. this really tears me up. but, a crime against a white by a white should also be treated as a heinous please respond. i would like to hear what other views are out ther. ciao' the federal government has used such laws to allow mutliple charges in order to prevent more crimes than would nromally occur just from two people being pissed off at each other. the federal government has an interest in the intent of the perpetrators in the pursuit of preventing violations of civil rights. it's the way they broke the back of the klan, by putting a lot of people away for a very long time for harrassing blacks specifically. it is a principle that has been well recognized as constitutionally valid since over 100 years ago. it has been used whenever a select group was getting bashed or harrassed more than any other person would just for being part of a minority. it is the only way we made the defeat of the south stick after the civil war. people who harrassed free blacks, when normally they wouldn't find themselves harrassing just anyone walking around were expeditiously tried and jailed for 5 to 8 years until nobody wanted to try it anymore. now with the 14th amendment guarantee of equal protection under the law, the law can use multiple crime and severe penalty involving intent as much as is needed to protect even one human that is a hated minority to somebody. they can call out the national guard just for them, as they did the school girls in alabama during desegregation in the 1950's, and the president can nationalize the state militia and turn the guns of the militia that were being used to bar blacks right around to point at the thousands in the crowd with an order to shoot that they would have to obey or face possible death by firing squad under the uniform code of military justice for failing to obey a direct order while under arms! and by god, they did! those southern boys turned right around an fixed bayonets! and the governor was left standing and was arrested by the federal marshalls that had brought the order to nationalize the guard. and that's why we need such an ability in federal jurisdiction. * richard steven walz rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (408) 429-1200 * * 515 maple street #1 * without safe and free abortion women are * * santa cruz, ca 95060 organ-surrogates to unwanted parasites.* * * real men would never accept organ-slavery and will protect women. * 
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 *teddy o'neill-creature with furry hobbit feet from bath uk*, a sentimental fool, posts: with the force of a world-wide youth movement, it ought to be possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine over, say, a twenty year period. evidently there are no open questions, either scientific or about how people prefer to live. john mccarthy, computer science department, stanford, ca 94305 he who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense. 
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 i'm prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms. as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard, i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training. ps: anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations? security drills, your friend the counter terrorist operation..... if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings, i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists. look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus, though. bless you, nadja, we needed a name for these attack puppies. friends of the fetus, or foof for short. :-) 
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 [procedural note: ted directed followups to misc.legal only. while i respect his right to do so, my own opinions are that (1) "followup-to" fields are mere suggestions, not mandatory commands and (2) this issue is of sufficient (a) general political relevance and (b) civil liberties interest to warrant keeping it active in t.p.m and a.s.c-l as well, at least for this round.] thf2@midway.uchicago.edu said: uh, no. that's not what happened in _boomer_. what happened in _boomer_ was that the judge didn't allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi-million dollar plant to be shut down over $185,000 in damages, and required the plant to pay the plaintiffs the $185,000 to make them whole. the plant would never have been shut down-- the plaintiff's lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement, because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than $185k to having the plant shut down, while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation. everyone's property rights were protected; the plaintiffs were made whole; unnecessary settlement costs were avoided. okay, now here's my interpretation of _boomer_, based on the facts as presented in the new york court of appeals<*> holding (_boomer v. <*>note: the new york court of appeals is the highest court in new york state. while the united states and 48 of the fifty states call their highest court "supreme court," "supreme judicial court" or "supreme court of appeals," maryland and new york call theirs simply the "court of appeals." to make matters worse, new york also calls its _second-highest_ court the "supreme court, appellate division"... atlantic cement co._, 26 n.y.2d 219, 257 n.e.2d 870 (1970)): oscar h. boomer, et al., owned land near the atlantic cement company's plant near albany, n.y. (the fact pattern gives no information as to which came first, the plaintiff's acquisition of the land or he defendant's start of production at their cement plant.) in the course of its regular operations, the cement plant did injury to the plaintiffs' property via dirt, smoke and vibrations emanating from the plant. the plaintiffs sought injunctive relief -- that is, they asked the court to order atlantic cement to stop damaging their property. (commentary: this seems entirely reasonable to me. boomer at al owned their property and, presumably, a right to quiet enjoyment of it. atlantic cement's actions were depriving boomer et al of that right.) instead of granting the plaintiffs' request for an injunction, the court ordered them to accept the damage being done to their property, provided that atlantic cement paid them $185,000 in compensatory damages. in other words, the court granted atlantic cement co., a private party, the power and authority to _take_ the plaintiffs rights to quiet enjoyment of their property by eminent domain. a taking by eminent domain is always problematical even when it's done by the state; allowing a private firm to do it is, in my opinion, totally wrong. (yes, i know, the _boomer_ court didn't call it eminent domain. but if it walks like eminent domain and swims like eminent domain and quacks like eminent domain...) let me take issue with the way you've presented the case... you say that "what happened in _boomer_ was that the judge didn't allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi-million dollar plant to be shut down over $185,000 in damages." blackmail? (pulls out black's law dictionary, abridged 5th edition.... "blackmail: unlawful demand of money or property under threat to do bodily harm, to injure property, to accuse of crime, or to expose disgraceful defects. this crime is commonly included under extortion statutes.") how do you define as "blackmail" one party's act of demanding the right to set its own sale price for a unique piece of property which it owns and which another party has expressed an interest in buying? or of demanding the right not to sell that property at any price? as i see it, boomer et al, having found themselves in the fortunate position of owning something which atlantic cement had to purchase if it wanted to stay in business, had every right in the world to set whatever price they wanted. there isn't, or at least shouldn't be, any law that says that you have to be a nice guy in your private business dealings. you go on to say: "the plant would never have been shut down -- the plaintiff's lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement, because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than $185k to having the plant shut down, while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation." if so, so what? since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of preventing parties from reaping windfall settlements from other parties when those settlements arise from wrongful acts by those other parties? if atlantic cement didn't want to have to face a choice between paying a windfall settlement or going out of business, well, shouldn't atlantic cement have thought of that before going _into_ business? (i note that as far as the facts show boomer et al were _not_ the parties responsible for bringing about this situation -- that was atlantic cement's own fault for choosing to build and operate the type of plant they did where and when they did.) and then you say: "everyone's property rights were protected; the plaintiffs were made whole; unnecessary settlement costs were avoided." as above, i dispute your claim that the plaintiffs were "made whole." they were, in fact, by court action deprived of their rights as owners of property to choose to sell or not sell that property at a price acceptable to them. and for that deprivation they were _not_ made whole. and again i ask: since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of ensuring that "unnecessary" settlement costs are avoided? (if so, i've been miseducated -- i always thought that the courts were supposed to be in the business of ensuring that justice is done.) is _boomer_ really being taught as "infamous?" that's really sad if it is, because i fail to see how it's less than completely sensible. you should read the law and economics stuff first-hand instead of filtered through teachers who clearly don't like it, for whatever inexplicable reasons. (1) _boomer_ is not being taught as "infamous," at least not at my (aside: northeastern law usually does a very good job of hiring for their first-year, mandatory classes (such as torts, where i first encountered _boomer_) instructors who, regardless of their personal opinions, can and do teach the law neutrally. when the students get into their second and third years, in which the students (a) can pick and choose which courses to take (except for the mandatory professional responsibility, of course) and (b) are presumed to be a bit more worldly and self-confident, less likely to be consciously or sub-consciously intimidated by law school professors and able to learn from openly biased instructors rather than be indoctrinated by them, the instructors tend to be more open in expressing their own opinions. this is especially true of part-time instructors who, in real life, are practicing attorneys or sitting judges... this can be _very_ educational, sometimes far more so than being taught by a somewhat cloistered scholar. end of aside.) i called it infamous because that's my opinion of it. for the reasons i've stated above, i believe it to be a triumph of something that i can only call "economic correctness" over justice. (2) it is "completely sensible" only if you believe that the alleged right of the owners of atlantic cement to stay in business and avoid losing a lot of their own money due to their own wrongful act, and the alleged right of several hundred atlantic cement employees to not have their jobs disappear, should trump the rights of people who own property which was damaged by atlantic cement's wrongful acts. (and if you believe that it is correct for the courts (or any other branch of government) to grant to private parties the right to take other people's property by eminent domain.) you'd like posner, bill. he's a libertarian. really? i didn't know that... what, if anything, has he had to say about cases like _boomer_? of course, he has too much of a paper trail to ever be nominated by a president, democrat (won't like his antitrust stance) or republican (won't like his support of gay marriage), and if bright law students "shiver" at what they don't understand, it's easy to imagine how the press will play it up as baby-selling. (i've seen mike godwin claim that posner asserts that law and economics is applicable to everything and is the end-all and be-all, when posner says precisely the opposite.) so it goes. i've admitted that my understanding of the field generally referred to as "law and economics" is weak. if it advocates the use of economical analysis as one of many "tie-breaker" factors which courts may use to help them reach decisions in cases in which the dispute, as measured by the scale of "justice", is evenly balanced, fine. but as illustrated by _boomer_, it is _not_ fine when the courts start viewing the economics of a case as being more important than the justice of a case. -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> 
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 on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. so now clinton is claiming that the republicans are holding the health of poor kids hostage for blatantly political gains. aside from the merits (or lack thereof) of another free immunization program, just what is such a program doing in a bill that is supposedly about creating jobs. jobs? what the hell have jobs to do with it? it's another touchy-feely program from the new, vapid administration. the fact is, the major claim made for "universal" immunization -- that "all children will be immunized" -- has absolutely no validity. several states already have u.i. programs, have had these programs for _years_. the result: on average, their success rates are no better than the national average. it seems that the gummint hasn't yet figured out a way to make parents bring their kids in. yet another case of shameless demagoguery from the "new" democrats, the "agents of change." if clinton is so hot to get this immunization program, why doesn't he and the democrats just introduce it as a stand alone bill. isn't it possible that clinton is the one doing the blatant political (read pork) manipulations here. he is telling the republicans, pass my muti-billion dollar package, or i will go to the people and tell them that you are opposed to immunizing poor kids. what? clinton using this issue for _partisan gain_? do tell. i have never thought highly of clinton, but stunts like this lower my opinion of him even further. i thought one of clinton's campaign themes was that he was going to be a new kind of politician. this kind of manuevering would have made lbj all together now... c'mon, you know the words... "meet the new boss! same as the old boss!" and the chorus: "we won't get fooled again!" paul havemann (internet: paul@hsh.com) * they're not just opinions -- they're caffeine for the brain! * ** (up to 50 milligrams per cynical observation.) ** recommended minimum daily requirement: 1,000 mg. keep reading. 
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 in the hopes of adding a little life to, what seems to be, the same old debates, i would like to add a few bits of info and ask for 1) a couple days ago the headlines were splashed with stories of proof that the north vietnamese had held u.s. hostages after the war ended. way back in today's newspaper (page a7 of san francisco chronicle) there is an article about the document that held the proof. [used without permission] "the document, which was discovered in the archives of the soviet communist party in moscow, is a russian translation of what is described as a september 1972 report prepared for the vietnam politburo by general tran van quang, who is identified as the deputy chief of staff of the north vietnamese army." [later on in the article after it talks about the claim of 1,205 americans in north vietnamese prisons] "phong said the easiest way to prove that the document is a fabrication is to review quang's career. in 1972, he said, quang was not deputy chief of staff; he was the army commander in military region 4 in central vietnam." 2) i heard on the radio that the church of scientology has filed for bankrupcy becuase the employees of cocolat , owned by cos, filed a class action suit against them for requiring the employees to pay dues to become members of the church. anyone heard more about this? 3) micheal jackson went into business with micheal milken. no lie. "who said anything about panicking?" snapped authur. garrett johnson "this is still just culture shock. you wait till i've garrett@ingres.com settled into the situation and found my bearings. then i'll start panicking!" - douglas adams 
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 : >true, man did not invent the need for food, shelter, warmth and the ilk, : >but man did invent the property laws and the laws of trespass. : but how do you think property is generated ? does it grow automatically : on trees when we wish so, or someone has to produce it ? some say it was generated by god or goddess; some say it was the result of the coalescence of billions of tons of interstellar debris. in either case, the property of which xavier speaks has been around for millions of years. : it all follows from the fact that mother nature does not : provide us automatically with our needs, oh? when did she *stop*? mother nature has been automatically providing us with her bounty ever since we crawled out of the primordial ooze. it is not "produced": it produces itself, year after year. last night, for example, i saw four deer crossing the road (pretty sight, too); in an earlier time, one of them would have been dinner. : there are 2 ways to go with produced things: the first is to : _trade_ it with the the person(s) who produced it. : the other one is to take it with a gun from the person who produced : it. the first way is the civilized method, the second is how savages : arrange their affairs. the american indians had no concept of ownership of property, and often freely gave of their supplies to neighboring tribes, trading food and clothing for weapons or services. the native hawaiians, like their polynesian ancestors, also could not conceive of that idea, and shared many things with the other islanders. in fact, "hi'ipoi", the hawaiian word for "cherish" means "sharing food". the great mahele, in which the islands were divided up more-or-less evenly between the rich and the poor, was a white man's idea. in africa, villagers will often share tools, crops, and clothing with other members of their own village and neighboring villages. every anthropologist who has ever been to africa has at least one tale of the difficulties arising from the so- called "theft" of the scientists possessions -- two concepts of which, until the visitors came along, the natives had no understanding. these are the people we call "savages". on the other hand, car-jackings and muggings are up from last year. dov, before you make further comment on this thread, i think it would behoove you to study *all* of the facts. 
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 think about it -- shouldn't all drugs then be legalized, it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use. i don't think we want to start using these criterion to determine why not? where do they get these people?! i really don't want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs. if you really want to, we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is! you asked a question, and now you don't want people to answer? i believe a legitimate question was asked. why shouldn't cost and safety be used (at least in part) to determine legality? i'd like to see you *prove* that drug legalization is an idiotic idea. seems to me the evidence from great britain is pretty convincing that drug legalization is a good idea. even such a noted conservative as william f. buckley supports it. my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper. a few more ideas to hold to these criterion - prostitution; the killing of all funny farm patients, aids "victims", elderly, unemployed, prisioners, etc. - this would surely make my taxes decrease. your examples (except for prostitution) fail miserably to meet both criteria (safer and cheaper). obviously, killing people is not "safe". as for prostitution, why shouldn't it be legal? ...dale cook "any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem." ---edward abbey the opinions are mine only (i.e., they are not my employer's) 
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 # #can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as # #not humans? they were "outside our society" and similar phrases that # #basically meant that they didn't have to recognized as having the same # #rights as a free person, but they were never considered "not human" to # #my knowledge. # isn't the fact that slaves were "purchased" as opposed to # "hired" enough evidence that they were not thought as humans? # didn't the bill of rights provide basic freedoms to humans # that were not available to slaves? not necessarily. distinctions were made between "citizens" and "persons" throughout the u.s. and various state constitutions. for example, free blacks had some rights of citizens, but not all the rights of citizens. i'm curious if there was an additional level of distinction made by the slave states to rationalize their treatment of slaves, or if they just ignored the theoretical problems of slave ownership. the bill of rights, as far as i can see, does not once refer to "citizens", but it makes several references to "people". for example, article iv: "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"; article v: "no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment by a grand jury ... nor shall any person ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"; article viii: "excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted". now i've never heard that constitutional rights apply only to citizens; aren't they meant to apply equally to all *persons* living in the u.s.? whether slaves were considered "not human" i don't know, but it seems that a case could be made that they weren't treated as "people" as defined in the bill of rights. and since the nation is nominally based on the declaration of independence which states that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", it would also seem that slaves would not follow under this definition of humanity. eric smith erics@netcom.com erics@infoserv.com ci$: 70262,3610 
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 here is a press release from the reserve officers association. reserve officers say demographics ignored in nominations to close naval, marine reserve centers to: national desk, defense writer contact: herbert m. hart of the reserve officers association of the united states, 202-479-2258 washington, april 13 /u.s. newswire/ -- the reserve officers association of the united states has alerted the defense base realignment and closure commission that the services failed to give sufficient weight to demographics in recommendations made to close 56 naval and marine corps reserve centers. in letters to the closure commission and to all 86 members of congress with affected locations in their constituencies, including sen. sam nunn (d-ga.), chairman of the senate armed services committee, roa charged that the developers of the navy-marine list ignored demographics of the civilian population, particularly prior service personnel. roa's executive director, maj. gen. evan l. hultman, aus (ret.), suggested "concern that the only plausible alternative is that they are intentionally attempting to foreclose the naval reserve components from maintaining even today's relatively low level of participation in their parent service's total force of the future." he asked the commission "to remove from consideration all locations without sufficient and convincing demographic data to warrant approval of the requested action." "only a few of the 56 naval and marine corps reserve installations on this list are large enough to have a significant impact on the community, if closed," wrote hultman. "the major issue is the cumulative impact of moving or closing such a large percentage of the existing locations." hultman reminded the commission, "the fact that the vast majority of the reserve installations on this list do not come close to meeting the minimal requirements for consideration in this process certainly supports the thesis" that these actions are simply an attempt to foreclose a substantial role for the navy and marine corps reserve. roa also noted "that at the end of the 1960s, when the number of naval reservists was approximately the same as today, there were 480 naval reserve facilities. if the navy recommendations are approved, there will be less than 200 naval reserve facilities." facilities on the list include seven naval air stations ranging from south weymouth, mass., to alameda, calif., 28 naval reserve centers in macon, ga., and parkersburg, w.va., to missoula and great falls. mont. naval/marine corps reserve centers include four in san francisco, fort wayne, ind., billings, mont., and abilene, texas. a major marine reserve center on the list is that at el toro, calif., plus six others. -30- nigel allen, toronto, ontario, canada ndallen@r-node.hub.org 
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 secretary riley: good evening and welcome to all of you in the thousands of communities around the country that are taking part in this satellite town meeting for the month of april. you know, today is april 13th. in 1743, thomas jefferson was born, 250 years ago. i think that's appropriate to mention at the beginning of this meeting because since that time he has been, of course, a person who has been one that we've all followed in terms of our democracy and the importance of education here in this great country. the success of our democracy according to jefferson really depends upon the success of our educational i wonder if he realizes the irony of a federal secretary invoking a rabid anti-federalist in support of federal education david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 # -# just curious (don't have to answer if you feel uncomfortable): # -# how many times have you had sex with boys? # why do you care? if a total stranger asked you how often you had sex, # would you answer? # # henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc. / <henry@ads.com# this is so typical of homosexuals -- constantly making excuses for child molesters. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # ## #i remain pro-choice, but when pro-choicers compare abortion in a # ## #clinic to a religious ritual in a church, you have to start wondering # ## #a bit if the pro-life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice # ## #doesn't have a grain of truth to it. # ## ah, clayton, so i see that you have found someone new to bash. tell # ## me, how many pro-choicers have compared abortion in a clinic to a # ## religious ritual in a church? i'll bet that you've seen "overwhelming # ## support" for this opinion in some newsgroup or another. # #no, but i've seen the comparison drawn by pro-choicers in ca.politics. # #it is worrisome to me. but not to you? # 1. i've been reading ca.politics for a while now, and i don't recall # seeing such a comparison. you don't read *my* postings very carefully; i'm not surprised. it was pretty shocking, and is part of why my sympathy (though not agreement) with the pro-lifers is increasing. # 2. a handful of lunatic opinions expressed in ca.politics does not # make me think that the opinion is widely held. when did i say that it was? # clayton, i wish i knew what made you tick. your math sucks, and you # take single instances of fringe opinions and proclaim the existence of # a pernicious trend. there's about a quarter billion people living in # this country -- some small number of them are almost guaranteed to # hold opinions that you (and i) find positively repellent. as long as # the small number is truly a small number, and as long as they're not # my neighbor (highly likely), i'm not worried about it. when they hold high public office, you should worry. # by the way, when you cite experts, remember that carl sagan and paul # ehrlich [sp?] are experts, too. if i've never heard of your experts, # i'll consider the source (you, a man who is clearly unable to master # elementary statistics and uses of statistical inference) and ignore # them. # david chase you mean, i don't come to the conclusions that your emotional state requires. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # |## |#2. professors get summers off; industry employees don't. # |## what professor gets the summer off ? the primary purpose of a professor # |## at a university is to publish. teaching is secondary. the summer # |## is when professors are able to do the research required for their # |## papers. # |#i'm told by my advisor that only at some universities is publishing # |#the primary emphasis; many professors in the cal state university # |#system don't publish at all. those that prefer teaching are under # |#no pressure to publish. # when discussing and issue, it helps that all participants use the same # definitions, although this rarely occurs on usenet. # when i use the term "university", i think of an organization that has # a bachelors, masters, and phd program. i believe that cal state schools # do not. i call them colleges. uc schools are universities. at a univeristy # the number one goal is to publish. cal state university system offers bachlors and masters degrees. the ph.d. is not offered, because of opposition from uc. # at the cal state schools, do the professors you speak of have phds? at nearly all the professors have phds. i haven't had a professor who didn't, though my wife has had a couple of professors with just an m.a. a friend had an instructor who didn't have a degree at all, but because he had been minister of culture for the black panthers, he was teaching anyway. he had a bad habit of usually not showing up to teach the class, and finally quit in disgust at the racism of a university that expected him to show up to teach. # a university you have professors with phds and then teaching assistants (tas). # tas were the slave labor, graduate students who got their tuition paid, and # a few hundred a month for living expenses in exchange for doing all the grunt # work. the professors taught the lectures, with 100 to 500 students per class, # then the tas taught the labs, with 20 to 30 per class. # tim fogarty (fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov) at sonoma state university, typical class size is 20 to 30 per class. teaching is definitely more the goal, and sometimes, it actually happens. the best professors at sonoma state u. are equivalent to the best professors i had at ucla and usc. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 14, 1993 remarks by the president at summer jobs conference hyatt regency crystal city, virginia 11:22 a.m. edt the president: thank you very much. the speech that octavius gave says more than anything i will be able to say today about why it's important to give all of our young people a chance to get a work experience and to continue to learn, to merge the nature of learning and work; why it's important to honor the efforts of people like jerry levin and nancye combs and pat irving and all of those who are here. i want to thank the secretaries of labor and education and all the people who work with them for sponsoring this; and my good friend, governor wilder, for being here and for speaking; and all of the business and local community leaders from the city and county and state level from around america who are here. this has been a pretty fun day. (laughter.) i loved hearing the young people sing. it was music to my ears because it is their future that we are really struggling about. (applause.) a year and a half ago i began the quest to seek the presidency because i was concerned about their future. because i believe that our country, which had always been a beacon of hope for the young, had too little opportunity, was too divided among ourselves across lines of income and race and region and other ways, without a vision to take us into the future. i entered with the hope that together we could create more opportunity and insist on much more responsibility from all of our people. but in the process we might recreate the best of america's community, knowing that together we could always to more than we could individually and that we might secure our future. all of you here today are committed to that. the 1,000 jobs that jerry levin has committed time-warner to is symbolic of the commitments made by many of the private sector people who are here, and those who are around the country. the work that nancye combs does, and the successes of all the young people like those on this stage, and especially the eloquent statement octavius jeffers -- all those things show that together we know what we need to do, and we're on the right track. last july when i was traveling across america's heartland in my luxurious bus, i visited seneca high school in louisville, kentucky. and there i met young people and business people who were participating in the louisville education and employment partnership. i saw what nancye combs talked about today. i saw how the young people were making an extra effort to succeed both in school and at work. i saw, as i have seen many times in my own state, the principle illustrated that octavius has talked about -- that for millions of american young people it is really an impediment to both their learning and their ability to be good workers to draw a sharp dividing line between what is work and what is learning. in the world in which we are living, the average young person will change the nature of work seven or eight times in a lifetime. we must learn to merge the work world and the learning world much better. and we must determine that all of our young people see the opportunities that some of them have had showcased here today. whether you're in business or in government or in education, you know that we have a big job to do when it comes to building a future that really, honestly includes opportunity for all of our people. there are still a lot of people who say, well, things are pretty good here in washington and everything's fine; the best thing we can do about this whole thing is nothing. they all have jobs. (laughter.) all the people who say that. (applause.) they all have health insurance. they all have a pretty good education. and they all have a pretty secure knowledge that they'll be okay no matter what happens. i say that not to be either political or unduly critical, but to point out that one of the great challenges of this age for every advanced nation -- everyone -- is to fully develop the capacities of all of its people, and then find work for them to do. all the european countries have higher unemployment rates than we do, but also stronger support systems for the unemployed. the japanese unemployment rate has been going up. they're going to adopt a stimulus that, even if you count it in its most rigorous terms, is three or four times bigger than the one that i have proposed to create jobs. in west germany alone, the unemployment rate is now about as high as ours. this is a big problem for advanced nations. it costs a lot of money to add an extra employee, with a lot of pressure from low-wage producers in other countries that are growing their own economies and trying to provide new opportunity for their but it is especially important for america for two reasons: one is, we have a whole lot of folks who, unless we move aggressively, will not have the education and skills we need to be competitive and productive in a nation like this. the second is, even if we educate them all, if there aren't jobs they will be robbed of the fruits of their educational labors. people need to be able to work in this country. (applause.) we have always had some unemployment; and, indeed, some of it is normal. you've always got some people leaving jobs and moving around the country and doing first one thing and another. we have now, at this moment in our history, the necessity for all big organizations, including the government, to reexamine the way they are organized and who ask whether there are too many people working at some kinds of jobs. but in the whole, we must still be able to create jobs in a country like america, to provide people with the chance to work. it's going to be difficult for me to make the welfare reform proposals that i will make to congress in the next couple of months -- it's going to be hard for me to make those work if, at the end of all this work, to get off welfare there isn't a job. (applause.) so we have two tasks. one is to develop the capacity of the american people to perform without regard to race or income or the circumstances of their birth. the other is to make sure that there are some opportunities for them to bring to bear for their talent and to be rewarded with a paycheck. it is a great challenge. i do not pretend that all of the answers are simple. but i know if you want to ask the american people, all of them, to be more responsible, if you want to recreate a sense of community in this country that bridges the lines of race and income and region, you have got to have opportunity in that mix. a part of our vision for america has to be a future for every young person in this country who's willing to play by the rules and work hard and strive for the end of the rainbow. there has to be something at the end of that rainbow. and that is what we are basically here to talk about today: what can we all do as partners, recognizing none of us can do it alone, to develop the capacities of our people to succeed wherever they live and whatever their background. and then, what can we do to make sure that there's something there for them to do? the summer jobs program we're discussing today is an integral part of that plan, because it will promote the values of work and opportunity and fairness, community. it will put the people first, and it does have a partnership between the public and private i said when i addressed the united states congress in february on this program that i would seek to create about 700,000 extra summer jobs from government sources and then challenge the american business community to meet that target so that we can create more than a million new summer jobs over and above what had been created before. many, many people have responded to that challenge. and jerry is just a shining example of that which has been replicated in this room and around the country -- people who are going to do more than they otherwise would in the private sector to give young people a work experience. and it is terribly important. i want to emphasize that this summer jobs program is part of an overall commitment to increase the capacity of the american people -- from retraining defense workers who lose their jobs and other adults who need to acquire new skills; to improving the transition from school to work for young people who don't go to college but do need at least two years of post-high school training either on the job or in a community college or a vocational setting, so that they can be competitive workers, making it possible for more people to go on to college who do want to go. all these things are part and parcel of a comprehensive plan. it's also important, as i said, that we create more jobs. the emergency jobs program that i asked the congress to adopt would create a half a million extra jobs over the next year and a half, and that would reduce the unemployment rate by a half a percent. it would also enable us to absorb more young people coming into the work force in jobs that otherwise will not be created. it also will help a lot of cities and counties to invest in things that need to be done at the grass-roots level -- projects long delayed, water projects, sewer projects, park projects, new industries and particularly in small and medium-size communities -- a whole range of things that will improve the economy and improve the environment. the summer jobs program is an important part of that because we have tried for the first time, through the work of the labor department and the education department and through reaching out to people like you, to make this more than just a one-shot summer jobs program; to integrate it with private sector efforts; to hopefully replicate it in each coming summer; to move these young people into further educational opportunities and to further job opportunities; and to have a strong, meaningful education component to these summer jobs -- something that the united states government has never fully emphasized before. a lot of these young people, as you well know, because they come from difficult backgrounds, because they go to school in difficult and challenging circumstances, need extra help in building their basic skills in math and language, reasoning and in other areas. and a lot of educational studies show that young people who have difficulty in school often forget as much as 30 percent of what they learn over the summer and then that has to be repeated the next what we are trying to do here is to give people the opportunity to learn good work habits and to reinforce their learning skills and to put them together; and then, hopefully, over the next couple of years, if our entire program passes, to give every school in this country the opportunity to have a good work and learning there will be more applied academics, more opportunities for people to learn and work during the school year, so that this will not simply be an isolated moment for these young folks, but will be a part of building a whole new educational experience, a whole new work experience, and moving on a pathway to a better future. the summer jobs programs are not designed to be make- work jobs. they're designed to make a future for the people holding the job. and that's what they will do. in the process, they'll help to build local communities, to strengthen local economies, to solve local problems. real jobs -- renovating housing, repairing public buildings, doing clerical work, providing nursing assistance in hospitals, supervising and training children at child care centers, and learning all the way. challenging young people to learn while they earn, but letting them earn. you know, it's very difficult to make a case to people who have never seen opportunity on their own street that they should do this, that, or the other thing if there's no evidence of the opportunity that's at the end of the effort. i have not been sparing in going for the last year-and-a-half into places where it isn't exactly popular to say it, and say i wanted to reform the welfare system; i wanted to toughen child support; i wanted to require people to work; i was sick and tired of people being irresponsible in the use of guns on the streets, and i wanted to change all that. but if you're going to summon people to greater responsibility, you have to reward them when they do the right thing with opportunity. (applause.) the young people we propose to put to work under our program will spend 90 hours learning basic skills, such as math, reading, writing -- either on the job in the classroom. they will stretch their minds as well as work up a sweat. they will have a sense of accomplishment. it will literally be a summer challenge, but a challenge that will take them into a different life. so i want to ask all of you to support this effort even as i, as your president, support your effort. at the end of the summer we will evaluate all the young people who participate. we'll see whether they, instead of falling behind over the summer academically as too many young people do, they stayed even or moved ahead. i suspect that they will. this summer, secretary reich and secretary riley and i will be visiting many of your communities. we'll really try to learn from you which of these efforts are working, what we should do next summer, how we can build it in to what goes on during the school year, how we can build in our job training efforts and the works that we do with your companies to make sense of this whole thing -- so that we maximize the impact of the taxpayer dollar and your private investments as well. we want to honor the companies and the communities, the business leaders and the young people who do the very best jobs this summer. and, again, i want to say to all of you in private business who have matched our effort, i thank you. and to all of you who haven't, and those across the country who may listen or learn about this event today, i want to implore other private employers to stretch a little bit to give other young people a chance to work this summer. i'm telling you, we cannot go through another 10 years when we don't give these children anything to say yes to. if we exhort them to do right, we've got to be able to reward them. (applause.) when the other speakers were talking, i was sitting up here on the platform, listening and reveling. and they got talking about work, and i got to thinking about all the different things i've done to make a living in my life. when i was 13, i made a very foolish short-term business investment: i set up a comic book stand and sold two trunks full of comic books. made more money than i had ever had in my life. but if i had saved those trunks, they'd be worth $100,000 today. (laughter.) that does not mean young people should not be entrepreneurial. it just means that you can't foresee a generation ahead. i have mowed yards and cleared land and built houses and worked in body shops and the parts departments of a car dealership. and i've done a lot of different things for a living. some people say i got into politics to escape work. (laughter.) i learned something from every job i ever had. but i grew up in a generation where i literally did not know a living soul without regard to race or income who wanted to work who didn't have a job. i grew up in a generation when all you had to really say to people is, get an education and you'll be all right. you'll get a job and you'll make more money next year than you did this year. now i live in a generation full of people, most of whom don't make any more money in real dollars than they did 10 years ago and they're working longer hours and they're paying more for the basics of life. and we are now wondering whether we can create the jobs that these young people want. now, i want to close by reemphasizing these two things: it doesn't matter what kind of economic policies this administration pursues, or how much productivity increases there are in the private sector, if young americans don't get a good education, don't learn how to work and can't be productive, those jobs will not be created in this country. machines will do the work or the work will be done off-shore by people who have the same skill levels and can work for a third or a fourth or a fifth the wages. so nothing we can do economically will matter unless we build the skills and capacities of america's work force. and anybody that pretends otherwise is just on the other hand, we need to be honest. every wealthy country in the world, including the united states, is having difficulty creating jobs. if i knew everything that needs to be done i'd be glad to tell you and we could just call off the whole deliberations of congress and everything else. i don't have all the answers. but i know this: doing nothing is not the answer. (applause.) and so the jobs program that i have presented to congress, with the summer jobs, with the money for the cities and the counties, through the community development program, with the infrastructure money, is a small part of a big budget. it is an attempt to engage in an experiment to see whether or not, with the economy recovering in terms of corporate profit, we can give a little boost to it, give opportunities to young people, create a half a million jobs and maybe get the engine going again. most of the jobs in this program are going to be jobs in the private sector, not government jobs, even though it's government money. and the lion's share of the work in rebuilding the american economy obviously will come from the private sector. that's the kind of system we have and it works pretty well. but this is the challenge we have. so i ask all of you here today to support the summer jobs program, to ask your friends and neighbors to support it, to go back home and ask your employers to make a little extra effort; to do what you can to help me pass the funds to create the 700,000 jobs that the united states government should create this summer, so that together we can have this partnership. because more than anything else, we have to give a future -- a future that our young people can believe in. we need to send them a message that here in america if you study hard and work hard, if you obey the law and contribute something to your community, you will be rewarded by your country. you can build a future from you own dreams. that has always been the promise of america. together that's what this summer of challenge needs to be: a reaffirmation of the promise of america for so many young people to whom that promise has been an illusion. we can make it a reality. thank you very much. (applause.) end11:45 a.m. edt 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 14, 1993 press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room 12:40 p.m. edt mr. stephanopoulos: i guess i'm just prepared to take questions today. q george, bob dole says that the clinton administration's policy on bosnia is a failure and that he wants the united states to take the lead in lifting the arms embargo so that the bosnian muslims can defend themselves. mr. stephanopoulos: as you know, president clinton has said that that suggestion is under active consideration. obviously, this is a tragic situation in bosnia. and if the bosnian serbs don't come to the negotiating table in a constructive way, we'll look seriously at pressing for lifting the arms embargo. in the meantime, we're going to continue to press for a tough sanctions resolution in the u.n. we're going to continue to work on the serbs to come to the negotiating table. but the prospect of an arms embargo is something the president certainly will consider if the serbs don't come to the q how much longer are you going to give them to come to the table, george? mr. stephanopoulos: we're working on that right now. q it's been a long time. q on february 19th, the president mentioned the value added tax in ohio. and when he was asked about it later by reporters, he said -- quote -- "that is a radical change in the tax system of the united states. it's something i think we may have to look at in the years ahead." questioned again about it later he says, "it is not something that is now under consideration. if we start considering it, i'll tell you." it wasn't a trial balloon or anything, he said. i was just discussing the tax response to a question. donna shalala, quoted in usa today this morning -- quote - - "certainly we're looking at a vat." what's gone on? q the same with alice rivlin this morning. mr. stephanopoulos: the health care task force is reviewing a number of options. they haven't made any decisions yet. and as i have said from this podium time and time again, we're not going to comment on decisions that haven't been made. q but you have also said from this podium time and time again -- q wait a minute. whoa, nelly. whoa. q that that was not under consideration. q yes. clinton says, "it is not something that is now under consideration." is that no longer true? mr. stephanopoulos: i believe the working group, as ms. shalala says, has looked at this prospect, but no decisions have been made of any kind. q well, i know. but he said he'd tell us about it if it was ever under consideration. i take it that now he is and he didn't tell us about it or -- mr. stephanopoulos: did he say if it was under consideration or if it was something to be proposed? q "if we start considering i'll tell you." mr. stephanopoulos: if it's something to be proposed? q "if we start considering it, i'll tell you." that's a direct quote. mr. stephanopoulos: the task force has looked at a number of different options. they have not made any decisions yet. the president has not made any decisions yet. this is -- one of the proposals under consideration by the task force was to go out and cast as wide a net as possible for different ideas on how to reform the health care system. they have cast a very wide net. they have looked at hundreds of different proposals -- probably thousands of different proposals. but the president has not made any decisions. q well, is the president aware of their consideration of this option? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know if he's been briefed on any preliminary conclusions or anything like that from the task force on this specific proposal of any kind. i don't know that that's gotten to his level. he started yesterday to go through with the task force a very wide range of decisions and i don't believe that that's been presented to him, no. q well, he's not relying on the usa today to tell him what his task force is considering in the way of taxes. mr. stephanopoulos: no, he's going through it in a very deliberate fashion. there are a number of decisions that have to be made. i don't know that this proposal has reached that decision- making point. q if this is still under consideration, that's a change, at least from what we've been told by dee dee, i think about three weeks ago or so. she said, that is not an option, talking about the -- had a big argument with somebody over this, so i remember it specifically -- and said it not once, but twice. is that not the case? mr. stephanopoulos: again, i don't know if this has been presented to the president as something that is being looked at at some level in the task force. q it was ruled it out, though. i mean, unlike other options that you've kept in the mix, this one specifically was ruled mr. stephanopoulos: again, this is something that is being looked at, but no decision has been made of any kind. i mean, it doesn't -- it's not necessarily material until you get to the decision-making phase. the working groups are looking at hundreds of different options. q if it was ruled out before and it's not ruled out now, then something has changed, george. yes, no? q when a guy says in february -- mr. stephanopoulos: well, the working groups are looking at the widest possible range of options. q so something's changed. they weren't looking at it before; they're looking at it now. mr. stephanopoulos: well, i don't know if the working groups have gotten to that point yet. they are casting a very wide q how was it possible that you and dee dee were able to sell -- definitively rule it out as an option previously and now are saying that, in fact, it is being considered? mr. stephanopoulos: again, the working groups are looking at a wide range of options. they have not -- q do you deny that you and dee dee ruled it -- flatly ruled it out on several occasions in the past month? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't deny that -- i mean, those are the president's words. those are very clear. q subsequent to the president's words, do you deny that within the last month you and dee dee have both publicly ruled it out? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know about the timing. i think what we did was refer back to the president's words and say they stand. q so don't they stand any longer? q march 25th, clinton said for the next four to five years it was ruled out. mr. stephanopoulos: well, those words -- the president did say that in february. the working groups are on a separate track, and as i said, i don't believe -- q separate from the president? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't believe this has been presented to the president. q are they considering something that the president q has ruled out? q has ruled out? i mean, will the president consider a vat tax? mr. stephanopoulos: again, the working groups have not presented this to the president. they have looked at a wide range of options. i suppose that if an argument is made, he will clearly listen to it. that does not mean he has decided to do it. q can we put this another way? in his answer in ohio, he looked at the vat in terms of restructuring the whole tax system. under those -- that was the circumstance that he said it might be considered at some future point. is that no longer the case, or is that the only way that he can see a vat emerging? mr. stephanopoulos: i guess i'm not sure exactly what you're asking. q he talked about the vat in the context of a restructured tax system, not as a specific way to finance health care, for example. q or anything else. q or anything else. q it was always in the context of substituting for other taxes at a time of a dramatic overhaul of the whole tax system. mr. stephanopoulos: right. q has that change, too? q is that still his view? mr. stephanopoulos: i haven't spoken about those specific comments. i think -- i can just go back to it -- are the working groups -- have they examined the possibility of a vat? yes, they have. q certainly we're looking at a vat, she said. mr. stephanopoulos: they have examined the possibility of a vat. has it been presented to the president? has he made a decision? no, he has not. q what kind of a deal do you have when you've got the president's appointed task force, obviously not oblivious to his ruling something out except in the context of some huge down the line reform, goes ahead on its own and considers a tax which he has specifically ruled out in any context other than much later, and then goes ahead and announces that that's what they're looking at? is the president concerned about that sort of thing? mr. stephanopoulos: i think that the president's concern is to make sure he gets the best health care proposal possible. he's concerned with making sure that they have the most thorough process for examining all the possible alternatives, all the different alternatives. if a decision is made to go forward with something like that it's certainly something the president will explain and justify. but no decision has been made along those q what does it mean exactly, though, when the president rules something out? does it mean it can get back on the table later if a more persuasive argument is made? mr. stephanopoulos: that's just -- that's indisputably true. if you -- but, at the same time, he has not ruled it in. he has not made a proposal. q what makes him open to it now when he wasn't open to it before? mr. stephanopoulos: he's certainly willing to listen to the argument. q was he willing to listen to the argument for a short-term tax this year, and he wasn't willing to listen to it in chilicothe? he's now open to it -- mr. stephanopoulos: the context of his comments was that it was not something -- he wanted to be clear that this is not something he was proposing, not something he was floating. q not something he was considering. those are his words -- "it's not something that's now under consideration. if we start considering it, i'll tell you." you're now acknowledging, are you not, that it is under consideration and -- mr. stephanopoulos: i'm acknowledging that the task force has studied this proposal. i am also stating that the president has not made a decision on it. q but the door is open for the president to reconsider including this as part of -- mr. stephanopoulos: obviously, the working groups are looking at it. again, but the president has not made a decision. q do you know if they will make a presentation on behalf of the vat to him? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know that. i assume that if -- i don't know what stage they are it in proposing. i don't know that they're going to make the conclusion that this is something they should present to him. i know this is something the working groups are looking at. q do you understand, george, that none of us are asking these questions in context of a decision that the president has made, only about what the president is considering? mr. stephanopoulos: i understand that, and i am acknowledging that the working groups have examined the issue of a q and the president will consider it? mr. stephanopoulos: i assume that he will consider the argument if it is presented to him. q does that mean the president -- that working groups think that when the president says no, he means maybe? (laughter.) mr. stephanopoulos: i think that means that the working groups are trying to do the most thorough job possible. q george, can i ask you another question about mr. stephanopoulos: sure. (laughter.) q no, he wants us to stay on this. q let's do gays in the military. (laughter.) q no, he got out of that swamp. q i think we've gotten the bottom line on that vat. reggie bartholomew, your special ambassador in belgrade, today said that if the serbs do not accept the agreement that has been worked out -- quote -- "we will do our part to pursue the lifting of the arms embargo together with our allies." that seems to go a bit further than what you've just said -- mr. stephanopoulos: sounds almost exactly what i just q well, do you accept -- in other words, you accept what reggie -- mr. stephanopoulos: well, the president has said that this is something that's under consideration. it is something he will consider if the current actions don't bring the serbs to the q isn't there some kind of timetable here? mr. stephanopoulos: yes, there is a timetable. there's going to be a vote on the u.n. resolution in about 10 days. q that's on sanctions, that's on tightening the mr. stephanopoulos: that's right, that's sanctions. and we believe that that will ratchet up the pressure, and we hope that that will bring the serbs to the table. as you know, mr. bartholomew also met with mr. churkin of russia, and they are also working on ways to bring the serbs to the table. we will continue to pressure them in many different ways and this is one possible option as well. q the question is whether there's a timetable for consideration or a vote on a decision on lifting the arms embargo, not the sanctions. mr. stephanopoulos: the next vote in the u.n. is on sanctions. as far as i know, there are no votes scheduled on lifting the arms embargo. but it is something that we have discussed both internally and with our allies. q why did reggie bartholomew tell the serbs that the u.s. would do that? what was the point of his telling them that? mr. stephanopoulos: well, clearly, i mean, this is something that's under consideration, and this is something that we take quite seriously if they do not come to the table. they should know the consequences of failing to come to the table. q have they been given a deadline? q warren christopher has been saying the same thing and it hasn't seemed to change the serbs' behavior in the least. why should the serbs take any heed of a threat to lift the arms embargo when so far everything that's been done has had no effect on the fighting in bosnia? mr. stephanopoulos: i just don't accept the premise of your question. it has had an effect; the embargo is having an q what effect? mr. stephanopoulos: if the serbians choose not to heed our warnings, then they will face the consequences. q what effect has it had in bosnia? mr. stephanopoulos: well, the effect that it has had on the serbians, it has tightened up -- they are not getting their shipments through. we can brief more fully -- q in bosnia, george. in bosnia what effect has it mr. stephanopoulos: well, it's hard to say if it's stopped the aggression to date. that is why we're continuing to press for the serbians to stop. but we believe that over time we will continue to weaken the serbs and that will have an effect. i'm not saying it's going to happen overnight; it clearly hasn't happened overnight. but we believe that over time the sanctions can weaken the serbs. if it fails to work and if the serbs fail to come to the negotiating table, we'll move forward with the embargo. q isn't there a working deadline, george, of the 24th -- the same date as the u.n. -- the scheduled u.n. vote? hasn't the united states said, along with many of the other nato allies, that if the serbs aren't willing to sign on to the peace accord by then, that we'll seek -- haven't we said that we will seek -- mr. stephanopoulos: we've said continually we're going to -- q but on that deadline? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't have a specific date, but we're going to move forward with the resolution, the u.n. resolution, by around that time. and if that fails to take effect, if that fails to bring the serbs to the table, we will clearly consider other q isn't this awfully incremental? mr. stephanopoulos: we're taking a step-by-step approach. we're ratcheting up the pressure and we're going to continue to do that. q is there a possibility, george, that by the time all these incremental steps are taken the serbs will have achieved their goals and then what's the purpose? mr. stephanopoulos: i think the purpose is to get the serbs to stop the aggression. we are pursuing that goal on many different fronts. we are pursuing it through the u.n.; we're pursuing it through direct talks; we are pursuing it through tightening the sanctions. and we will consider lifting the arms embargo. we are turning the screws up on the serbs and we will continue to do that. q but if the efforts have been unsuccessful in getting the serbs to stop the aggression how effective will any campaign be to have the serbs give back what they've gained? i mean, once they're entrenched -- mr. stephanopoulos: i can't speculate on that. we're going to continue to press for them to come to the table now. we're going to continue to find ways to stop the aggression. but i can't see into the future. q george, on the stimulus package, house republicans say they're going to hold a series of town meetings on saturday to try and explain the details of your package. they cite polls which show that the more people learn about it, the less they like it. what's your strategy to counter that? mr. stephanopoulos: the strategy we have is the one we're going to continue. as you saw, the president today pointed up the very real benefits of the summer jobs program that this package will provide: 700,000 new summer jobs this summer for kids in inner cities and suburbs to do productive work. we are also going to point out the benefits of the highway money, the investments in highways. we're going to point up the benefits of immunization. we're going to point up the benefits of head start. we are going to say that the republicans have a choice: they can take action to create jobs or they can perpetuate the gridlock of the last four years. q does it concern you, though, that the house now, the house republicans are after you as well as the senate? mr. stephanopoulos: the house republicans voted against it before. they made a mistake then; they're making a mistake now. q george, does it strike anybody in the administration that it's a bit strong to describe, as the president did this morning, the summer jobs program as -- quote -- "a reaffirmation of a promise of america"? mr. stephanopoulos: not at all. i think it's the promise of america to give kids a chance to reach their full q government-funded jobs? mr. stephanopoulos: to give people a chance to work? absolutely. that is the promise of america. q i want to follow up on something i asked yesterday -- where does 700,000 summer jobs, where does that figure come from? mr. stephanopoulos: that is on top of. i did look at it. there are currently 600,000 summer jobs in the pipeline. this will be on top of the 600,000, so it will be a total of 1.3 million. q the 700,000 would be created by the stimulus mr. stephanopoulos: yes. q where does that number come from? because we've been told all along that the stimulus package would create 500,000 new jobs. and according to panetta, that breaks down to something like 200,000 full-time jobs and 150,000 summer jobs. mr. stephanopoulos: yes, but the summer -- that's when you do their full-time equivalence. i mean, 700,000 individuals will receive jobs this summer. when you calculate it for the full-time job effect, you have to do -- i don't know what the exact formula is. q seven hundred thousand part-time jobs -- mr. stephanopoulos: -- 150,000 or -- q one to four because it's three months. mr. stephanopoulos: thank you. q can i follow up on that? did the president misspeak this morning when he said that some of the government money for these summer jobs will pay for private -- for kids to work in the private sector? mr. stephanopoulos: not necessarily. i mean, i think that there will be grants available. that's one of the ways that you pay for the jobs. at the same time, he's also issued a challenge to the private sector to hire kids on their own as well. q tax dollars, for instance, would pay for kids to work at time-warner? mr. stephanopoulos: i think the time-warner is actually somebody coming forward and actually doing a grant. that's going to be the bulk of it. there could be isolated instances, though, where there would be grants to businesses. q has the president spoken with any senate republicans this week? mr. stephanopoulos: no, but there's been a lot of contact with senate republicans in the white house. q at a lower level. but the president hasn't? mr. stephanopoulos: the president has not, no. q getting any closer to get the votes? mr. stephanopoulos: we're continuing to work on it. q anybody leaning your way? q on haiti, the new york times seems to be reporting something of a breakthrough in aristide's attitude towards the coup leaders. can you confirm that there has been this change, and what impact will it have on the process? and what did pezzullo have to say yesterday in his report? mr. stephanopoulos: pezzullo did brief the principals. i can't confirm what's actually happening in the talks. i would leave that to the negotiators themselves. but mr. caputo has returned to haiti. we have received a briefing here at the white house from ambassador pezzullo. and as we have said time and time again, we believe that assurances of security are important to a final resolution to a broader political settlement. q george, yesterday you offered some selective breakdowns of how the stimulus would impact some states and cities. can we get a complete breakdown by state of how these jobs would be mr. stephanopoulos: i think we have it for most states, yes. and i think we can get it out. q could you make that generally available? mr. stephanopoulos: i believe we can. q and could you do it by the component of the stimulus? in other words -- mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know if we can do -- i know that we can do it by summer jobs and other jobs. i don't know how deeply it can be broken down. but clearly, we can break it down into summer jobs and other jobs. q and can i follow up? is this the information that jeff eller and the rest of the white house is using in the ads in the mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know if they're ads, but they're press releases. q can you describe what those press releases contain? mr. stephanopoulos: all we're doing is pointing out the benefits of this package to various states. for instance, i know that today senator dole is heading up to vermont and new hampshire. and i would point out that the stimulus package, the jobs package creates 1,000 jobs in vermont. it creates 2,000 jobs in new hampshire. and the people of those states should remind him that this is important. q where are the releases going? mr. stephanopoulos: they go to the states. q to whom? mr. stephanopoulos: we can get them. it's no problem. q can we get it? q why don't you put them out here as well? mr. stephanopoulos: i think we can. q this afternoon? would that be possible? mr. stephanopoulos: i'll have to check. i don't know. but as soon as we can. q are you focusing these press releases on states where there are moderate or pragmatic republican senators? mr. stephanopoulos: i think we're trying to get as many as we can. it's actually quite difficult to pull this together and we're doing our best. we're putting them out as we get them. q why are you so closely tracking senator dole's mr. stephanopoulos: i was just following it. q are press releases going along to states where he's mr. stephanopoulos: i'm not sure. i think that probably there are press releases going to vermont. (laughter.) q will there be a man in a chicken suit waiting? (laughter.) q george, as the president goes about the business of defending what's in his stimulus package, he doesn't address what seems to be the republicans' main point, that you're funding it with deficit spending rather than "if it's so important, why not come up with the funding for it" seems to be the republican argument. and how do you answer that? mr. stephanopoulos: what was answer is, we are paying for it over time. and if you look at our budget, we pay for this package over time. we believe right now the economy needs a jump- start for jobs. q you're not claiming, are you, that that doesn't add to the deficit this year? mr. stephanopoulos: i'm saying we're paying for it over time. i didn't say that. q i know that, george. but i mean, from the beginning, the question -- we do have annual budgets and things -- deficit spending will pay for that this year, will it not? mr. stephanopoulos: this year they clearly will. but over time our budget fully pays for this program. q what you're saying is that there are savings that would cover this if it were this year in future years? mr. stephanopoulos: absolutely. that's exactly what i q i know that, but there is going to be outstanding debt, it will add to the national debt from this year -- mr. stephanopoulos: no, we're reducing the deficit by $500 billion -- $514 billion over the next four years. q you mean you're reducing it below what it would have been? mr. stephanopoulos: exactly. q in fact, you're adding a very large amount to the national debt over the period of -- mr. stephanopoulos: but we're reducing it far more from what it would have been. that's true. q washington-type reduction. (laughter.) q you're getting to be a grumpy old man. q george, has any decision been made about the white house or the president's participation in the gay rights march coming up in a week and a half? mr. stephanopoulos: we're working on the president's schedule now. i believe he's going to be at the senate democratic retreat in jamestown that weekend. q will he address it by phone? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know about that. it's a little far out, but i believe he's going to be in the senate retreat. q so will he have the leaders in a day or two before the speech? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know. i would expect that at some point he would meet with the leaders of some of these groups. i don't know the schedule on it, though. q will there be an aids czar appointed prior to or in conjunction with the event? mr. stephanopoulos: i'm just not sure. q april 22nd is earth day. what is the president going to do to mark that, and is it the case that he is going to sign the biodiversity treaty that day? mr. stephanopoulos: i know there's been some work on the biodiversity treaty. i don't know about signing it that day, but i would expect he'll have a statement on earth day or right around q where is the work on the biodiversity treaty? mr. stephanopoulos: i'd have to check with katie mcginty. i just know that there's been some work done, but i don't know exactly what. q when is earth day? mr. stephanopoulos: the 22nd, i think. q why is it you know that he is going to have a statement on earth day but you don't know if he's going to have a statement on the gay rights march? mr. stephanopoulos: i said i don't know if he's going to meet or when he's going to meet. q do you have a statement on the gay rights march? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't, actually, no. i wouldn't be surprised if he did, though. q do you have some details on the miyazawa visit? mr. stephanopoulos: it's a working visit on friday and the president is looking forward to that in discussing a number of issues including russian aid and the japanese stimulus package and the trade issues between the two countries. q there was some expectations that a second aid package to russia was going to be unveiled at the g-7 meeting and, if i understand, it hasn't happened. why is that or what's the status on that? mr. stephanopoulos: the g-7 meeting is still going on and, as you know, secretaries bentsen and christopher have talked about the outlines of a possible package. but we're going to continue to consult with congress and our g-7 allies on that. q? we will not then make any kind of announcement during the two-day meeting? mr. stephanopoulos: the meeting's not over yet. q is that when you're going to make one? mr. stephanopoulos: i'm not ruling out the possibility. q the president's going to announce it tomorrow. q bentsen said that. q yes, bentsen said it would be tomorrow. q so did christopher. mr. stephanopoulos: i'd have to look at that, but i believe it is more likely that the announcement will come out of q george, has there been further consideration here about going to -- sending the president out to los angeles? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know that there's -- it's not something we've ruled out. we don't have a date set for it. q george, you all have a position or do you support immigration's plan to settle 4,000 iraqi prisoners in the united mr. stephanopoulos: it's the first i've heard of it. q george, there was a report today about the -- q fortunately. (laughter.) q about the pace of appointments and says that president clinton is behind president bush in the number of positions that people have been nominated for. are you going to speed up the pace of nominations or where do you stand with it? mr. stephanopoulos: we filled 814 of the president's appointments. and it's broken down -- we have 384 schedule c; 147 noncareer ses; 213 pas full-time. i'm not sure what that means -- (laughter) -- 70 pa full-time. and this is about the same -- it's about the same pace of president bush. obviously, as you move along farther, once you -- each level of appointment actually has a multiplier effect and frees up far more appointments. so we expect the process to speed up. but we're at the pace of bush. obviously we'd like to get these done as quickly as possible. i would point out that the fbi background checks and the background check is far more comprehensive and it takes more time than our predecessors, and that is part of the holdup. but we're working on it. q is that because of nannygate? mr. stephanopoulos: i think that's an awful big part of it, yes. q in the story this morning, you were at approximately the same pace as bush in making appointments, but way behind in winning confirmations. mr. stephanopoulos: that's where the background checks comes into play. that's the problem. q that's the background checks problem? because i mean, you have a democratic senate -- mr. stephanopoulos: no, that's not the -- you make the appointments, and then it takes quite a bit of time to fill out all the forms and have the background checks done. that's exactly where the problem is. q what's the president doing this afternoon, and what's on the plan for tomorrow? mr. stephanopoulos: he's got some meetings -- just office meetings this afternoon for the most part, on a variety of issues that -- probably a half-dozen different issues. and then he'll be -- tomorrow we'll have an event, probably again focused on the stimulus and jobs package out of here at the white house. and friday is the miyazawa meeting. q will you be releasing his tax return tomorrow, mr. stephanopoulos: either tomorrow or friday. q is there going to be a pre-briefing regarding the japanese prime minister's visit tomorrow? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know about tomorrow, but we'll probably get something done, as we usually do, for these q was reverend jackson here this morning and do you know what that was about? mr. stephanopoulos: he was here. he met with a group of us here at the white house, including mack mclarty. q who? q reverend jackson. mr. stephanopoulos: reverend jackson. mack mclarty, me, gene sperling, bruce reed, jeff watson, mark gearan. q talking about haiti? mr. stephanopoulos: we talked about general urban policy. he is about to go to los angeles. he was just back from mississippi, where we had a good victory last night; and he's going on to los angeles. q did he request the meeting? mr. stephanopoulos: actually, no. he's in continual contact with the president. he had written a letter on a variety of issues, and so we asked him to come in and talk about it. q george, dole is having a fundraiser for jeffords tonight in vermont. have you guys been in contact with jeffords at all on this? mr. stephanopoulos: i think there's been some contact, q can you tell us about the contacts? mr. stephanopoulos: i'm not sure -- q do you know who contacted him or what was said? mr. stephanopoulos: i know that howard paster talked to him and they just has a general talk about the package. q and did he express his support for it now, or is he mr. stephanopoulos: i can't divulge the details of the conversation, but there have been conversations. q the l.a. times is reporting that abortion -- elective abortions is likely to be included in the basic health care package. is this something the president is considering? mr. stephanopoulos: again -- q along with the vat? (laughter.) mr. stephanopoulos: it's certainly something that's been looked at, but no decisions have been made. q what was the question? mr. stephanopoulos: the l.a. times story on whether abortions will be covered by the president's health plan. q did the president in his meeting -- did you in your meeting with reverend jackson ask his advice, solicit his advice about what kind of stance the white house should take in the wake of the verdict in l.a.? mr. stephanopoulos: well, we certainly talked about the situation in los angeles and the long-term prospects for economic development and other issues. q for instance, did you discuss whether it would be helpful for the president to go there or not? mr. stephanopoulos: well, we discussed a wide range of issues related to los angeles. that was certainly one of them. q letting you perhaps go out on the way you came in, i need to go back to bosnia just for a second and ask -- mr. stephanopoulos: oh, good. q your reaction to margaret thatcher's comments that you're just sitting by and watching a massacre. mr. stephanopoulos: well, we've been pushing very hard on a number of fronts for more aggressive action. we will continue to do that. q can you tell us if you've made any progress in your talks on the stimulus package getting a compromise? i mean, we don't have any feel except talks are ongoing. have you talked to like 20 people or -- mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know the numbers. we've talked to several people and we've had wide-ranging sessions. q anyone leaning your way? mr. stephanopoulos: i can't get into that. we're just going to keep working through tuesday. the press: thank you. end 1:10 p.m. edt #56-04/14 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release march 14, 1993 public events on the president's schedule for thursday, april 15, 1993 10:20 am est the president meets with leadership of law enforcement organizations -- the rose open press 3:00 am edt the president meets with the national ambassador for the march of dimes birth defects foundation -- the oval office tv pool, open still photo, writing pool 3:15 am edt the president meets with mosaic minstrels of new york, ny -- the rose garden open photo, writing pool 3:30 am edt the president meets with the berwick, pa, high school bulldogs, aaa state football champions -- the south lawn open photo, writing pool upcoming events on the president's april 16, 1993 the president meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa, the white house april 26, 1993 president clinton meets with president amato of italy, the white house -30-30-30 
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 this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves. according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed. (no, dr. norman, these were not your typical beer swilling red-necks.) personally i wouldn't have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event, went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game. what a bunch of crock. i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before. dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year. (i was listening on the radio). this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs. it's come to this, has it? defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle? i'd say that about says it all... back to the pit with ye, back to alt.fan. dan-quayle! begone! paul havemann (internet: paul@hsh.com) * they're not just opinions -- they're caffeine for the brain! * ** (up to 50 milligrams per cynical observation.) ** recommended minimum daily requirement: 1,000 mg. keep reading. 
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 the white house office of the president for immediate release april 13, 1993 president to nominate carter for nuclear security no, no, no! bill, please, don't nominate anyone who pronounces it "noo-q-lar"! jimmy always used to drive everyone nuts when he did that! and don't let amy anywhere near! and... (washington, dc) the president announced today that he intends to nominate ashton carter, the director of harvard's center for science and international affairs, to be assistant secretary of defense for nuclear security and counter-proliferation. {emily litella voice} ...never mind. paul havemann (internet: paul@hsh.com) * they're not just opinions -- they're caffeine for the brain! * ** (up to 50 milligrams per cynical observation.) ** recommended minimum daily requirement: 1,000 mg. keep reading. 
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 |>as quoted from <c4vctb.j1h@dscomsa.desy.de> by hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (phill hallam-baker): |>> isn't it wonderfull the way people can make the sadistic and indescriminate |>> murder of the bader-meinhof gang sound like altruism? |>gee phil, i'd remember where you are and that these people are monitoring the |>net. i'd also remember that they have about as much sense of humor as ed damn. it isn't big brother after all? and all this time i thought that all those revolutionaries, while blowing things up and killing the odd innocent person in the process, really did love all us proles. ('cause _everybody knows_ that dialectical materialism will save you [even if it has to get you killed first]). what a fool i've been. 
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 think about it -- shouldn't all drugs then be legalized, it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use. i don't think we want to start using these criterion to determine why not? where do they get these people?! i really don't want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs. if you really want to, we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is! you think that you all have it bad....here at good ol' southwest missouri state u., we have 2 parties running for student body president. there's the token sorority/fraternity faces, and then there's the president and vice president of norml. they campaigned by handing out condoms and listing their qualifications as,"i listen really well." it makes me sick to have a party established on many of the things that are ruining this country like they are. i think i'll run next year.:( darin j keener, dak988s@vma.smsu.edu pc-the idea that catering to splinter groups is the way to go. 
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 -> : according to a ``cnn poll'' to key reason for clinton's low -> : approval rating is people are angry about him not moving fast enough -> : on gays in the military. i just burst out laughing when i heard this; -> : what planet do these cnn people live on anyway? -> : jason c. austin -> : j.c.austin@larc.nasa.gov -> dunno, man... that sounds pretty damned unlikely to me, too, -> although it's certainly one of the reasons i'm pissed off at him. -> maybe the sample was taken entirely from my fellow memebers of the -> cultural elite? -> jason, can you quote some of these poll questions? -> thanks, -> bill -> v i've never seen cnn give out the poll questions on the air. if you sent them a letter asking for them, you might get them. here's my guess of how part of a session might look: question: do you approve of clinton's performance? answer: no questions: do you disapprove due to the gays in the military issue? answer: yes conclusion: clinton has a low approval rating because he's not moving fast enough on gays in the military. i think any group truly dedicated to reporting the news would not use manufactured news like polls. 
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 (brent irvine) writes... ` "54-40" or fight was about a territorial dispute with ` british canada, again old stuff. uh, not quite. the 54/40' boundary dispute is still unresolved, and canadian and us coast guard vessels regularly if infrequently detain each other's fish boats in the disputed waters off dixon entrance. the only reason you don't hear more about it is that it's in neither country's interest to aggravate the quarrel. that doesn't mean that either country is prepared to back down, especially the local political representatives whose constituents are all fishermen. fishing rights are disputed. between 2 nations, no matter *how* friendly, there is always fishing disputes. what i was getting at was the 54 40' or fight slogan is old stuff dealing with the land dispute. no one is saying 54 40' or fight about fishing rights. the territorial dispute about the oregon territory (we called it) is long resolved. fishing rights...small potatoes. <><><><><><><><><><> personal opinions? why, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> brent irvine <> yes. what did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu <> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?....... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 
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 i would be upset that, although abortions would continue, they would be a lot more expensive for the rich, and a lot less safe for the poor. so now things are supposed to be legal just to keep their cost down and the safety factor high?? think about it -- shouldn't all drugs then be legalized, it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use. i don't think we want to start using these criterion to determine why not? where do they get these people?! i really don't want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs. if you really want to, we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is! go for it. i have yet to see anybody justify the prohibition on drugs and the ensuing war on drugs. in the world of *.politics here on usenet, it is you that is crazy. anybody--who gives the matter any thought beyond reading headlines---cannot justify this atrocity, this all out war on individual rights. just _try_ to justify the war on drugs, i _dare_ you! my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper. once again, in chorus: why is this "stupid"? a few more ideas to hold to these criterion - prostitution; the killing of all funny farm patients, aids "victims", elderly, unemployed, prisioners, etc. - this would surely make my taxes decrease. the above paragraph is gibberish--that all i can make of it... steve thomas steveth@rossinc.com 
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 |> >it is the government that is preventing entry to the market. the |> >desire of those running established businesses to prevent or |> >restrict the entry of competitors is an understandable, though |> >generally unpleasant, human failing. but without a means to act |> >on this desire, without a government with sufficient power to |> >restrict the options of the potential competitor, the |> >anti-competitive desire remains just an unpleasant wish. the |> >government is the linchpin, so we seek to disengage it so we |> >don't get the shaft. |> once again, mark, you don't specify the means through which the government |> is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests. as a |> left-wing, big government, conventional liberal, i'm just as willing as |> you are to vote against anti-competitive regulations that favor auto |> dealers. |> but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents' terms, |> to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws, |> and a desire to eliminate legislator's pay. each strikes me as a |> particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special |> interests cannot influence public policy. in fact, they seem clearly |> designed to accomplish the opposite. this is similar to my saying that clinton's timber summit does little to fix the health care problem. look at the whole picture, not just randomly picked libertarian positions. if government is not allowed to use "non-initiated force" to achieve its goals, than no special interest can influence the government to use non-initiated force on their behalf. the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i'll address briefly. it certainly won't happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy. what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy? statists run the education monopoly, so we have to be creative. the advocates for self-government reports 85% of their seminar 1 participants "embrace" libertarianism. that's the best means i've seen yet. we should lobby for compulsory seminar 1 attendance. :) [in jest!] roger collins it's amazing to me that governments around the world will try every aspect of government control before, as a final last resort after everything else fails, they will try individual liberty. -- andre marrou, libertarian candidate for president '92 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178353">
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 here's a question: what if, instead of a true vat, the federal government imposed a sales tax of say 2-3%? the tax would only be paid on retail sales (thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway), and would only go to reducing the deficit. (i know that this would never happen, but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat). canada's gst is collected as a sales tax and is considered a vat. funnily, the previous hidden wholesale tax that it replaces was never referred to as a tax (or, people never paid mind to it, thus the uproar when it was brought up front as the gst --- one party has actually campaigned on hiding the tax again). the stated intent of the tories was to use the gst to write down our deficit. unfortunately, their legislation didn't include any mechanism for disbursing the collected funds in such a manner and the money is now sitting in escrow. i don't know what is involved in releasing the funds, but one dilemna is that the tories are not fiscal conservatives themselves though while taxing and spending, they've made moves to apply the breaks to a runaway locomotive by the end of this time --- the end of their second term (~9 years). while they do have chances of getting a third term, catching up in the polls to their more moderate/slightly leftish pro-business rivals, the liberals (as in euro/uk), the tories' heir-apparent for the leaders' mantle has been termed a clone of hillary clinton ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 6. hey, i think the beaded curtains add a lovely 60's-esque touch! aaaaaaaaaaaa! run! run for your lives! 5. look, canada, europe, and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens (and, yes, basic health is a human right which people are entitled to). if these nations aren't capitalist enough for you, then i guess we've found something better than capitalism! there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system, and if something, be it socialism or anything else, works better, then i say let capitalism die. then why are they in the process of systematically dismantling some of their socialistic health care systems through privitization of key components? 4. make love, not war! if i hold a gun to your wife, would you respond the same way? i don't think so. while the age of aquarius may have hit the white house, the age of peace love and harmony hasn't hit in south central la nor has it hit in former yugoslavia. and as long as there are people in the world who would rather see me dead than thrive, i want the protection of a police force who will keep the peace so i *can* make love without being 3. contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time. to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong, and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse. women certainly have as much to offer this world as men, and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills. i look forward to it. the ultimate statement for equal rights (something many of the feminazis have forgotten) is "i do not care if you are either a man or a woman, i do not care if you are black or white, i do not care if you are gay or straight." once you can honistly say "i do not care about color, race, or gender or sexual preference", then we will truly be on the right track. keep shoving differences in my face and then expect us all to get along? get real! so long as you try to make me care if you are black, female, or whatever, i am going to continue to balk. it's natural human behaviour. but the moment employers searching for employees, banks looking to lend money, and theclinton administration looking for appointees can honistly say "i do not care about your color, race, gender, or sexual preferences; i instend instead to treat you as a human being," crap like last year's riots will continue to happen. 1. hey man, acadamia rules!! you mean the same economic theorists who say things like "for the sake of convenience in mathematical modeling we will first assume there is no wealth creation" now get a crack at implementing their phd thesis in real life? go back to your textbooks on macroeconomic theory. look in the first chapter of that book, introducing the field of macroeconomic theory. right there in chapter 1, section 1, is a statement like the following: "as it is difficult to predict and model wealth creation, especially in an economy where wealth creation is inherently the province of individuals who create new inventions and discover new ideas, we will assume for the rest of this book that there is no wealth creation. "we do not assume the lack of weath creation in the real world, however the mathematical modeling of such an inherently unpredictable subject is impossible. even though we assume no wealth creation, we do believe that for most mathematical economic modeling such an assumption is reasonably valid as it allows us to make predictions which then can be tested." so the guys who are running the store for clinton and company are now assuming that wealth creation does not exists. they are (borrowing an idea from the hitchhiker's guide) too advanced to think of these simple to be honist, i would rather have an engineer with years of experience building bridges design the next bridge, rather than a theoretical physicists with a freshly minted phd and no experience do the same job. - bill woody normally i don't post (or even read most of the postings) in this newsgroup. if you would like to reply to this message and want me to see the reply, then i guess you will just have to reply directly to me. 
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 so ... the jury will be making its announcement at 7:00 am saturday morning pacific time .... 10:00 am eastern time. why such an ungodly maybe by making the announcement at 7:00 am on the west coast, they figure all the rioters will be asleep, giving the troops time to move into place. since the actual verdicts were not known by the authorities, it was smart not to allow "friday night for fighting" (sorry, elton) and to seal them for this morning. also, it allows for maximum daylight to wear down and frustrate any potential troublemakers, as well as give more preparation time. i guess we can look forward to a weekend of rioting, eh? are you a local news intern? (-; the mayor of los angeles, in a press conference about 3:00 am saturday morning, ... actually, that was 8 pm 'cos it was shown live on our 11 pm news and cut into cnn's 11 o'clock sports (sorry, but i didn't watch the devils-islanders game! no sportschannel ...). meanwhile, following the announcement of the jury's verdict, the judge, jury and assorted court personnel will be evacuated from the building via helicopters landing on the roof of the courthouse. they can't even walk out through the front door with their heads held we had cutovers to la's knbc on our wnbc, and i didn't recall this detail. but i'll not comment further on that ... won't the rioters have a surprise waiting for them when they wake up later today! a net-contact in l.a. tells me that the alert will remain over this weekend, as some elements may find excuse over the not-guilty verdicts on three of five charges (the aiding-and-abetting). those acquittals seem to balance out the fact that rodney king himself was not any kind of angel that night, speeding and fleeing et al. however ... another consideration is any street celebrations over the two convictions on the excessive force charges (koons for incompetance, and powell for overreacting --- both guilty as heck even from the view of nypd cops interviewed) that might get out of hand. )-; also, some elements may take the acquittals as an excuse to challenge the cops (a dumb move, obviously). and, koreans are still scared and certain people are really mad over how they have armed themselves in the last year. a commander from nassau, long island was questioned about how his people would have handled rodney king, and he said "we'd have let him roll around in the dirt 'til he got tired, then handcuff him". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 i see you are a total ignorant asshole as well. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ it's the sign of a small mind to use filthy language when he can't articulate his point. oh, no, not in this case. i've noticed that you conveniently edited out your stupid comment that the prc stands for cambodia. when we're arguing the vietnam war and about cambodia, and you toss in a boner like that (along with your other boners), you are an ignorant asshole. oh, and even the vietnamese agree that they did far more damage to cambodia than we ever did. there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 libertarians want the state out of our lives. nambla members want to fuck little boys. now do you get it? i see! libertarians want to have the right to fuck little children of either sex, and want to make sure everyone else has this right too. nambla just wants to have the right to fuck little boys. or are you just a secret member of nambla? you're the one who suddenly seems to be defending the right to fuck children. how many little girls have you raped today, if wanting to abolish the age of consent is not repectable, it is not respectable for anyone. hmm, you still don't get it. then again, i'm not posting from a university where the hue and cry was raised against "jewish physics". tell me, committed any anti-semitic acts today? what kind of boots do you and still -- libertarians want the state out of their lives. parents are very capable of protecting their children against the predations of pedophiles, which, btw, you still haven't disassociated yourself from. are you, or are you not, a member of nambla? there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 if the vat will be done in the same way that state and local sales taxes are done, nothing will be on the sticker. the cleark ringing up your purchase (gum, gas, car, etc.) will hit a button to add another 5% on top of the state and local sales taxes (and that won't include any of the vat from previous levels of sales). there is no need to include the vat from previous levels because the vat is a "difference" tax...if the vat is x%, than the amount of tax the government receives through all the levels is x% of the purchase price of the end consumer. at the intervening levels, only the difference between the vat paid out and the vat received is remitted to the government. here's a question: what if, instead of a true vat, the federal government imposed a sales tax of say 2-3%? the tax would only be paid on retail sales (thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway), and would only go to reducing the deficit. (i know that this would never happen, but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat). a vat is infinitely preferable to a retail sails tax... 
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 what does anyone think that judge wopner would do if karadzic was on trial before him? (nevah happen, but just a thought...) 
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 # 179 czech republic # 180 republic of slovakia they were admitted early this year. liechenstein was also recently admitted. also san marino. both within the last 12 months. incredible what passes for a nation-sta state nowadays. 
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 chapter 7 operation in somlia. almost chapter 7 in cambodia and yugo. 'bout time the un started using force to make the peace happen. hopefully, they will soon be doing the same with world economics. 
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 turkish president turgur ozal has passed away today after a heart attack in ankara at 11:00 am gmt . mr. ozal was 66 years old. bahadir acuner acunerbb@csugrad.cs.vt.edu 
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 granted, the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids' chances of getting another job in the future, but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs? what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs? yet, somehow, surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs. so do inner city kids, when give the chance. any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work? ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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 #there is a big difference between running one's business #affairs, and actively ripping people off. and charging homosexuals more becuase people think that aids is a "gay disease" is actively ripping people off. -greg hennessy, university of virginia usps mail: astronomy department, charlottesville, va 22903-2475 usa internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu uucp: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w 
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 #that describes some straights -- and nearly all homosexual males. can you provide any evidence that doesn't ahve massive selection no, i thought not. just slander on your part. -greg hennessy, university of virginia usps mail: astronomy department, charlottesville, va 22903-2475 usa internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu uucp: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w 
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 from a pragmatic standpoint, there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway. shall we criminalize alcohol again? if the re-legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy. the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison this meaningless statement makes you look bad. 
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 ]i'm not. i'm in canada. we have far fewer shootings like this. we have ]had, i believe, one mass murder in the last twenty years. ]i'm not going to say we don't have our gun problems. but we do have the ]world's largest undefended boarder with one of the most gun-happy countries ]in the world. i think canada illustrates that gun control does have an ]effect. in fact, it's suprising that there is any difference considering ]how easy it is to smuggle a gun from the u.s. yes, it's amazing, isn't it. in fact, it should tell you that gun control is not the reason your crime rate is low, since any idiot can smuggle guns into canada from the us at any time. i think paul was trying to make the point that "any idiot" doesn't. there are surely some idiots who do smuggle guns, but paul seems to feel that the exis- tence of stricter gun control laws has had a deterrent effect. this seems a strange argument to make considering that canada's violent crime rate in general is far lower than that of the u.s. (our non-gun crime rate is greater than their *entire* crime rate). it would seem strange to suggest that it, to, were the result of gun control laws. i think if we looked we'd find very specific (cultural and enforcement) reasons why the non-gun rate is low as well, and then that reasons could be applied to the with-gun rates as easily. given that most criminally used guns are either legally purchased or stolen from those who purchase them legally, having more restrictions on legal possession does seem to have the effect of reducing gun-related crimes. aside from the fact that i find the idea of being punished because somebody might steal something from me and go and commit a crime with it a silly solution, it still doesn't address the question of canada. (which is now, by the way, blaming their rising gun-crime rate on the u.s. strange that the border used to "magically" keep the guns out, but now isn't.) it certainly makes sense that it would. (well, it makes sense to some of us, anyway. ;-) the other side of the coin, of course, is that far "illegal drugs" are purchases legally or stolen from people who purchase them legally. i've still not been convinced that guns, a commodity which criminals have shown their perfectly willing to pay for from illegal sources (stolen either from police, military, or civilian) we wouldn't simply see south american sources from which drugs come start smuggling guns as well, since there's a thriving gun manufacturing industry down there. if you would just look a little closer at the crime statistics, you would realize that: -our non-gun crime rate is also very high, so guns per se are not the issue directly contradicted by the nejm study that compared crime in seattle and vancouver, b.c. the non-gun rates were roughly the same for both cities. the difference in violent crime rates was almost totally gun-related. and as was not pointed out in the study, but in critiques of it, (two seperate articles by james wright and david kopel come to mind) it was pointed out that the difference was *also* almost entirely minority related. that is, the gun crime rate skyrocketed for poor minorities (blacks and hispanics primarily) while when you compared the white majority they were virutally identical. the problem with the nejm study was they compared minority vs. non-minority percentages but failed to take into account the relative conditions of those minorities. that there was an eqaul percentage of nomn-whites was about as far as they went. they failed to take into account that the non-whites in either city were not living in the same conditions. if the situation was entirely based on availability of guns, then we'd expect that the white rates, the two groups which are arguably fairly comparative in the two cities, would have a far higher rate in seattle. yet the majority in seattle is not only not significantly higher when the minorities are excluded, but slightly -violent crime is highly concentrated in the inner city surprise. pick the area with the highest incidence of poverty, drug use, disease, etc. since rates are lower in suburbia, us middle class folks can ignore the the point is, of course, that many of the u.s. "inner-city" problems are not mirrored in canada. as such if there is a condition which is significantly different in canada from the u.s., and violent crime is highly correlated to that area, suggesting that gun control is the source of canada's low rate is highly questionable. (as one canadian pointed out on talk.politics.guns, canada's major gun control in 1978 did not result in either a reduction or a slowing of an increase in violent crime rates, which have been rising steadily since. apparently they didn't even mirror the u.s.s very large drop of violent crime in the early eighties. -most violent crime occurs in areas with strict gun control already post hoc ergo propter hoc. those areas implemented gun control because of the high rates. true only to a certain extent. take washington d.c., where gun control was instituted while it had crime problems true, but that crime proceeded to explode afterwards. similarly for new york. the question is not simply a point in time where crime was high or low. did the gun control significantly and positively impact violent crime. since it's gone up in those areas, often faster than it was going up before, you can't simply dismiss the high crime rate by saying gun control was caused by it. yes, gun control may be instituted to deal with high crime. but if the crime is not positively impacted, you can't continually say that that crime rate was entirely a cause of that gun control, since much of that crime rate increased after gun control was implemented, just as happened in canada. similar or worse rates exist in cities with poor gun control. as would be expected if violent crime was generally independent of gun control. and the jury is still out on the question of whether recent tough laws in washington d.c. may have alleviated violence and suicide rates there. would this be the laws which made manufacturers liable for what others did with their guns, and suddenly the police found nobody would sell to them? david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 david smith) writes:>>granted, the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids' chances>>of getting another job in the future, but what inner city kid would want to hold>>down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made>>dealing drugs? what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs? yet, somehow, surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs. so do inner city kids, when give the chance. any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work? i suppose the correct answer is not "family values"? s'pose not. never mind. sorry. --king "sparky" banaian |"it's almost as though young kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu |white guys get up in the dept. of economics, pitzer college |morning and have a big smile latest 1993 gdp forecast: 2.4% |on their face ... because, |you know, homer wrote the |_iliad_." -- d'souza 
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 the federal civil rights trial against the four la police officers accused of violating rodney king's civil rights is now history: lawrence powell: guilty stacey coons: guilty theodore brazenio: innocent timothy wind: innocent sentencing slated for mid august, appeals expected. so far, all is calm in la... michael thomas (mike@gordian.com) "i don't think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower..." -- hobbes to calvin usnail: 20361 irvine ave santa ana heights, ca, 92707-5637 pabell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax) 
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 the selective service registration should be abolished. to start with, the draft is immoral. whether you agree with that or not, we don't have one now, and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees. finally, the government has us on many lists in many computers (the irs, social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few) and it can find us if it needs to. maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time. let's axe this whole department, and reduce the deficit a little bit. - dave borden borden@m5.harvard.edu you selfish little bastard. afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country. what someone not approve a lone for you ? to bad. what is immoral is: people like you and the current president who don't have any idea why this country still exists after 200+ years. 
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 on sat, 17 apr 1993 20:42:58 gmt, greg hennessy observed: : #tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced .... : ah, ending discrimination is now fascism. is that what they called it when truman forced integration of the armed forces, despite the opposition of congress and most of the american public at that time? michael d. adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) enterprise, alabama "tilting at windmills hurts you more than the windmills." -- lazarus long 
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 1) so what? so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars. this statement is just so blatantly disgusting and free of any implicit neural activity that i will almost completely ignore it. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry. sigh. it's so amusing to watch bigots point fingers at what they imagine to be other bigots. i do believe this person meant "bean *counting*". and are you trying to suggest that only hispanics eat beans? or that they even have a monopoly on eating beans? or that this person is seriously promoting what is obviously a tongue-in-cheek .sig? you must have a brain somewhere, if you can cause your fingers to type. use ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 even though this city (phoenix) has a relatively small black population, black people seem to be responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime. yesterday, black men robbed a cafeteria, beat the employees for no apparent reason, and shot one dead, even though they were being cooperative. a few days ago, a car full of black men opened fire on a car containing a young white couple and their baby, possibly because they didn't like the way the man was driving. the baby was slightly injured. these incidents are not even unusual. even if a white person starts out without racial prejudice (as, after all, we all do) and no one "teaches" them to be prejudiced, it's sometimes hard to see how they can avoid becoming so, based on their own observations and instinct for self-preservation. we always taught our children that racial prejudice is wrong (not only bad, but also mistaken), but how do you counteract the effect of these kinds of what's the answer? how can we work against racial prejudice when incidents like this keep fanning the flames? what can we say to deny that racial prejudice is a rational response to our environment? is it? should we? since the 60's, i have thought the only hope is through integration based on ignoring race and treating each person as an individual, but so many either preach divisiveness by emphasizing race or validate racism by their actions. where does it lead? ( alan filipski, gtx corp, 2390 e. camelback road, phoenix, az 85016, usa ) ( internet: al@gtx.com uucp: uunet!gtx!al phone: (602)224-8742 ) alan, you can start by teaching your children that the perpetrators of crimes no more represent the "black community" than racist hateful whites represent the majority culture (although there are many ethnic minorities who have fallen into the very trap that you are struggling with, and believe otherwise). the trap is the easy way out. for yourself, i think it would be a good idea to realize that the demographics related to the crimes you speak of have less to do with race, and much to do with socioeconomic status and disenfranchisement. you're going to find higher crime within *any* community comprised of *any* ethnic group or subgroup that has become dysfunctional, whatever the factors leading to that dysfunction. with ethnic minorities it is more usually than not, as i said, socioeconomic disenfranchisement. if, for example, you lived in an area where there were very few blacks, but quite a few poor-for-generations whites, you'd see the crime statistics reflecting the dysfunction of those white people. would you then worry about whther your children would begin to see whites as undesireable or whatever? the trap springs into action when our innate compunction to define "us" and "other" raises its little voice. the trap becomes dangerous when we stop to listen to that little voice and stop thinking like rational it's interesting that blacks are traditionally seen as *the* or the *most* criminal element in many of our urban areas. i don't know the racial makeup of phoenix, so i can't speak to your situation. however, i live in san francisco, a city that loves to tout its "ethnic diversity". here, we have black gangs, hispanic gangs, asian (yes, the "model minority") gangs, and even a few white gangs. the asian gangs have become a particularly troublesome element for law enforcement here, mainly due (i think) to their propensity for engaging in organized criminal activities. but ask people on the street and they'll, 8-out-of-10 times, tell you that black gangs and crime are what they most fear. during the "disturbance" in los angeles last year many of the rioters and looters were not black. some were even white! i remember being amazed at television news scenes that showed looting mobs where there were maybe one or two blacks at most! my perceptions, gleaned from tv news, were further corroborated by numerous friends and relatives that live in los angeles. this may have been the country's first truly multi-ethnic riot. yet i know from face-to-face and online discussion that in the minds of america the popular perception is that it was a *black* riot! in closing, i'd like to say that you raise some interesting points that really need discussion. our country has spent too long ignoring the racism (and its attendant ills) that is very much a part of our culture. as a people, we are afraid to face up to some hurtful truths, and the problem becomes compounded *daily*. we cannot afford to do it much longer. i truly believe that the well-being of all of us depends on changing our current course of denial and repression. i wish you and your children, and all other people, of *all* colors, luck in avoiding the "trap". peace, my brother. hokh'ton : the crystal wind is the storm, mdouglas@netcom.com : and the storm is data, michael douglas-llyr : and the data is life. : ---player's litany (the long run) 
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 tes: however, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. i don't find this silly at all. i find it silly (black humor) that we're spending billions of dollars and risking the lives and freedoms of every american to save a bunch of by-choice druggies... could you please tell us why you find this silly. that's, why, letters "w", "h" and "y", rather than arguments like "oh, _everbody_ thinks such and such is true". first, the only drug that could possibly be put in drug stations are marijuana or its derivitives. every other drug that i can think of can kill you if you take to much. (by the very nature of these drugs, your decision making skills aren't up to par. that is how it differs from asprin, flinstone vitamins, etc. we don't even allow penicilin to be sold over the counter.) second, we already have a big enough drunk driving and alchoholic problem in this country. if marijuana were legal, undoubtedly more people would use it, and that is a problem. people use it, get stupid, and hurt other people. 
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 tes: rites: boy, it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head, given that example! (issue: your friend _got_ his drugs--legal or not legal, he'll continue to get them. issue #2: why should _i_, as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not "screwed up" have to pay for this idiot's problems? he 's not doing anybody any harm except himself. the wod, on the other hand, is a immediate threat to my life and livelyhood. tell me why i should sacrafice this to that!). hello, is there anybody in there? you think you have to pay for this idiot's problem now, who's going to pay for the ballooning number of addicts and all of the associated problems with them. i don't even want to think about it with hillary in the white house and an administration that "feels our pain". look, if you were truly for lower taxation and less government, you would not be advocating the wod. ever wonder why the wod is a bi-partisan issue? no harm but to himself? what about when he drives his school bus full of kids into a train. when he gets stoned and drives up on a sidewalk and kills 5 people. when he lives off me on welfare for the rest of his ridiculous. i can't imagine anyone this stupid. forgive me for flaming, but this is sooooooo obvious! tell me why any of the above cases cannot be caused be a legal drug, viz. alcohol, or are you for having a war on that, too? now i'll tell you: more people are killed by alcohol-related accidents than all other drugs combined. by far. probably because more people have access to alchohol. it is legal you know. the problem with the wod is that it has no bite. sending the slimy bastards to the chair for selling drugs to kids, now there's some bit. yeah, that's it, send a kid from the inner-city, who has no other viable means to make money and turns to selling drugs, to an over-crowded federal prison where he learns to do real crime. of course, this kid would be much better off selling crack to his neighborhood and helping in its demise. without drug money being pumped into these blights from the (affluent) outside, there would be no crime (who would they steal from, each other?). drugs bring money into the community just like any other business would, except that, since drugs are illegal, the economy is an underground one. and if those drugs were legal, the neighborhood could legally go to hell. a self-sustaining underground economy can only proliferate by a constant willful infusion of money from the outside. if you take away drug laws, you put an end to the underground economy, and therefore to large-scale and if we made murder legal, we would put an end to murder as a crime. kids in the inner-cities are faced with a very tough life growing up there, or selling drugs and having everything at their fingertips instantly. many kids choose selling drugs. they sell products to people who want to buy them. they make money off of rich white kids from the suburbs. then they go to prison. then they become hardened criminals, and learn that you're much better off stealing car-stereos in the suburbs because all the police forces are spending all their money in the inner city saving people from themselves. what?????? you can bring up all the examples you want about crack-babies and whathaveyou. the solution never has anything to do with the laws (crack is illegal). so you are saying crack babies who are that way legally are okay? no social problem, however great, is worth destroying the freedom in america. the destruction of freedom is never an answer to any social problem. you can't even walk down the street at night alone in america because of drugs. freedom my ass. 
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 in regard to woody's post, i thought i would remind him of something in the midst of his tirade against academia: as a member of the generation likely to pay for the crap reagan and his cronies started with the deficit according to the brilliant laffer curve (not!) i think we need to look with open minds upon any ideas which will allow us to directly address the problems of the gigantic federal deficit and debt and continue to allow our economy to expand--and i don't remember woody and co. complaining about academia while laffer implemented his policy, stockman approved it while being fully aware the numbers not adding up, and reagan completing the largest con job of the century which my generation and i will now have to pay for. 
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 rscharfy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (ryan c scharfy) said: however, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. plus, i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack, ecstasy, chrystal meth and lsd. the 60 minute report said it worked with "cocaine" cigarettes, pot and heroin. or, the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish, and simply decriminalize cocaine, marijuana, heroin, lsd, etc. please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be "bought like cigarettes" is "just plain silly." after all, it works just fine for nicotine... yeah, cancer is pretty cool, isn't it. 
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 {sorry, harel et al, but our doctors and most hospitals are still private in canada as well as in much of western europe.} h e a l t h c a r e r e f o r m by camille colatosti z magazine (see bottom), march 1993 the single-payer model, sometimes called national health insurance, eliminates private insurance companies and removes health care from employment. the government provides free health care to all u.s. residents. and there are no out-of-pocket costs. wrong. in better ec countries that use pure (but public) health insurance (like we use in canada) rather than self-enclosed hmo-like socialized medicine, 30% of our costs comes from private supplementary insurance and/or copayments. france magazine's summer 1992 edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage, including a sample chart of copayment percentages. for 1-30 days, you're covered for 80% of the public hospital rate, 100% afterward. with extra private insurance, you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate. the public insurance covers 100% beyond 30 days, or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out-of-pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance. over 2/3rds of french have some form of extra private insurance. so, 30% of health costs in europe are out of private funds and not gleaned from other taxes. the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the 13-14% figure for the u.s. that the french had deductibles and copayments in their insurance fund is to their credit ... i am in the minority for advocating such back in canada (to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance -- which actually it is). the new reform party, a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly "libertarian" faction, hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it's not free (the average canadian/european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these). i'm one of the few people who favour copayments (forget about leftists, even our conservatives attack me for it on the canadian newsgroups) to make it look more like real insurance, 'cos the 100% insurance payment is hidden (unlike in france) and if you didn't know it, you'd believe it actually is socialized medicine (american conservatives/libertarians and canadian leftists are the only ones who seriously call it that). canadians aren't worried about the americans, who spend 14%; we're worried about the french and germans who spend 7% to our 9% ... so the insurance is looking at things that shouldn't be paid for out of general funds like physicals for insurance policies, sick notes, electrolysis, etc. the reason that the canadian health insurance hasn't spiralled out of control despite being open and universal is that unlike americans, there is no urge to spend all of your benefits' worth, and more if you can ... we're a different culture. like the play or pay model, managed competition leaves in place two elements of the current health care system that reformers most often criticize: the private, for-profit insurance industry; and the employer-based system of coverage. managed competition compels employers to enroll their workers in large pools of health insurance customers. entire industries may, for example, sponsor a pool or network. insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and other health care providers then bid for the pool's business, competing- in theory- on the basis of price and quality. "managed care" relies on hmo's, which are unknown in most western nations that use only public health insurance like canada, france and germany (i'm canadian, and my german father-in-law-to-be says of hmo/nhs approaches, "we left that behind with east germany!"). sure, hmo/nhs controls costs because you have managers strangling doctors with budget strings. in canada, we use the public health insurance approach as in france and germany, with all private doctors and both private and public hospitals. it is all pure insurance without hmo's. the divisions are different, with the germans using a couple hundred interlinked "sickness funds" over a century old while canada divides by their provinces (who run the insurance fund and set local fees with the doctors monopoly; federal funds cover the fees disbursed.) with such an open-ended system, it's no surprise that canada is #2 to the u.s. in costs; all-insurance is the most expensive way to go. the french and germans use the same approach but have larger populations in more compact geography to improve scales of economy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 f<o>cus/health: eight myths about national health insurance (pt ii) an office visit that's $52 in seattle is $18 in vancouver (canada). that's because, among other things, they've given their government power to bargain with doctors and hospitals over fees. the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees. lack of defensive medicine and near-absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance in canada (along with france and germany) without hmo's --- the nyt has admitted that malpractice insurance fees are an order of magnitude lower in canada but doctors take-home pay is almost equal to american doctors; also, minimal bureaucracy 'cos the system is so-o-o simple (early march). part of the deal for using the all-insurance approach like the french and germans do (hey, why don't they criticize france and germany? is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick? (-;) was to preserve the doctors independance. since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented, the politically-bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish, especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain's national health service. "`you've got to remember, you've got a waiting list as well, but it's not as obvious. if you're poor and you don't have insurance, you don't go to a surgeon. in the states you ration by ability to pay.'" for non-life threatening things, market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand. i have md friends who can't make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won't get enough customers -- the cma medical monopoly's grip on doctors licencing (as in the us) aside -- so they must move to larger places. however, this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care, as has been done in the u.s. by consumers reports, health policy studies cited by prof. dennis e. shea on usenet, cnn, nyt, etc. doug fierro has posted a nyt article from 3 weeks ago about canada's health insurance approach, on talk.politics.medicine. there is one small error in the article: not all of our hospitals are private. wouldn't national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less? in canada, provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care, eyeglasses, prescription drugs, ambulance service, and private hospital rooms, -- so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance. a policy to cover all of these things runs about #40 to $40 a month. of course, the one thing to note is that in the canada/france/germany case, private insurance *offloaded* the basic coverage to the public sector. they realized they were keeping low-risk/high-profit extra insurance for things like private/semi-private rooms (vs. ward accomodation), dental, glasses, etc. for corporate or personal benefits, they'll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care. at that point, they wouldn't even consider a "voucher" approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff. wouldn't free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain? people who get free treatment *do* go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical still, canadians -- who pay nothing at the doctor's -- have a lower per-person health bill than we do. it is "free" in that there are no deductibles nor copayments (two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance -- which actually it is). i know that when working in alberta, ontario and quebec, i was aware that i was paying for health insurance - e.g., in toronto, ohip fees were listed on my pay stub; manitoba did not collect at paycheque time, but only annually at income tax time (built into the tax rate). only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it's free, along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda. the french do have copayments, though. france magazine's summer 1992 edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage, including a sample chart of copayment percentages. for 1-30 days, you're covered for 80% of the public hospital rate, 100% afterward. with extra private insurance, you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate. the public insurance covers 100% beyond 30 days, or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out-of-pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance. over 2/3rds of french have some form of extra private insurance. so, the other 30% of health costs in europe are out of private funds, not gleaned from other taxes. the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the 13-14% figure for the u.s. isn't the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill? dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be "politically thorny," in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan. some 1,200 firms now sell more than $192 billion in health insurance. they'd put up a hard fight. not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers, but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada's parliamentary system. health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe, its just that it doesn't cover basic care. you can opt out in canada and germany, but you'll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so --- i.e., no market. when private insurance realized how much money they'd make without the risks involved in basic insurance (e.g., neurosurgery) versus deluxe amenities (e.g., having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone's private hospital room), they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility. in quebec last spring, a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine, low cost parts of that province's public health insurance plan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 there is never any mention of how much working canadians have to pay in taxes for their "free" health care system. oh, *really*??? i know that more than 50% of an average daily worker's salary goes towards taxes in canada mainly because of this "free" health care. it looks like we are pretty lucky so far. i know that when working in alberta, ontario and quebec, i was aware that i was paying for health insurance - e.g., in toronto, ohip fees were listed seperately on my pay stub. while i'm not the only canadian who favours lower taxes and cutbacks in spending, health insurance isn't on the table. see our polls ... a better one might be the july 1st polls conducted for macleans (our major english newsmagazine) by decima research ... decima president allen gregg is considered one of the world's top poll researchers, and mulroney's conservatives have relied on him to keep in power in the face of impossible election situations. i haven't had a chance to see this year's version due to our library, but previous ones before the americans started their assault and disinformation had shown satisfaction at 97% and switching to an american all-private system had support within statistical noise. the decima polls are considered definitive. even the new reform party, a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly "libertarian" faction, hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it's not free (the average canadian/european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these). personally, i feel that the universal health insurance approach used in canada, france and germany -- paying to private health providers in a nominally free market not unlike america's, minus hmo's -- depends a lot on values in those societies different from the u.s. the basic health needs for life are not viewed as market, but the insurance does allow the market to address that -- basic health care is not viewed on the level of ownership of a vcr as americans would see it. plenty of room is left for expenditure of private funds as extra insurance or as lastly, there were noises about how the canadian system was not containing costs, but, in fact, their system is currently bankrupt. please explain this one, hopefully in a way that canadian readers besides myself can understand and concur ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 the white house office of the press secretary (pittsburgh, pennsylvania) for immediate release april 17, 1993 interview of the president by michael whitely of kdka-am radio, pittsburgh pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh, pennsylvania 10:40 a.m. edt q for everyone listening on kdka radio, i'm mike whitely, kdka radio news. we're here at the pittsburgh international airport and with me is the president of the united states bill clinton. and i'd like to welcome you to the area and to kdka. the president: thank you, mike. glad to be here. q there are a lot of things we'd like to talk about in the brief amount of time we have, but some news is just breaking from los angeles. i guess the entire country has been kind of holding their breath, wondering what's going to happen in the trial of the four los angeles police officers. we just heard that two of those officers, the sergeant, sergeant koon and officer powell have been found guilty, and two officers have been found not guilty. it's a situation that's been building for over a year since the first trial and now this trial and this verdict. and i wonder what your thoughts are this morning on how you see the situation in los angeles in connection with your administration and what you're trying to do. the president: well, first of all, i think the american people should know that this trial, in my judgment, is a tribute to the work and judgment of the jury, as well as to the efforts of the federal government in developing the case. the law under which the officers were tried is a complex one; the standards of proof are complicated. the jury decided that they would convict the sergeant who was responsible for supervising the officers and the officer who on the film did most of the beating. the jury acquitted an officer who kicked rodney king, but also plainly tried to shield him from some blows, and another officer who was a rookie. no one knows exactly why they did what they did, but it appears that they really tried to do justice here. they acknowledged that his civil rights were violated. and i think that the american people should take a lot of pride in that. but i hope now we can begin to look ahead and focus on three things: first of all, the importance of trying to bring this country together and not violate the civil rights of any american; secondly, the importance of renewing our fight against crime. i think it's important to recognize that in the poorest areas of los angeles and many other cities in this country, people may be worried about police abuse, but they're even more worried about crime. it's time that we renewed our efforts to go to community policing -- put 100,000 more police officers on the street; pass the brady bill that would require a waiting period before people could buy a handgun, and do some other things to reduce the vulnerability of our people to violence and drugs. and the last point i'd like to make is it seems to me that we have got to rededicate ourselves to the economic revitalization of our cities and other economically-distressed areas. if you just think about it -- if everybody in los angeles who wanted a job had one, i don't think we'd have quite as many problems as we do. and i laid out a very ambitious program in the campaign to try to bring private investment and public investment to bear in our cities. i have dispatched the commerce secretary, ron brown, to california to try to come up with some strategies for that state, because it's our biggest state with our highest unemployment rate -- which could then be applied around the country. i want to talk to him and to the attorney general, to the new head of the naacp, to reverend jackson, and to several other people, and then i'll decide where to go from here with regard to los angeles and the other cities of the country. q let's talk about what brings you to the pittsburgh area today. there have been -- i guess there's been a lot of discussion on capitol hill about your stimulus package. you've been locked in a battle with the gop. yesterday, as you said earlier in your radio address, you made some moves to break that gridlock. what brings you to pittsburgh, in particular to allegheny county, in particular to pennsylvania, with that the president: well, there are two reasons. first of all, pittsburgh, allegheny county and pennsylvania supported me in the last election because they wanted a new direction in economic policy. we have passed our overall economic plan; it gives the country a very different budget for the next five years than we've had in the previous 12. we reduced the deficit and, at the same time, increased investment in jobs and education and health care, in the things that will make us a stronger country. but in addition to that, i asked the congress in the short run to spend a little more money, a modest amount of money to create another half-million jobs in the next year and a half; to try to cut the unemployment rate by a half a percent; but also to try to spark job creation in the private sector more. the plan passed the house. it has the support of a majority of the senate. at the present time, all the republican senators as a bloc are filibustering the bill. that is, they won't let it come to a vote. i believe that senator specter would like to vote for the bill. and i believe that senator dole, the republican leader, has put a lot of pressure on a lot of the republicans to stay hitched. and they're all saying that this bill increases the deficit. it doesn't. this bill is well below the spending targets that congress approved, including the republicans, for this year. this bill is paid for by budget cuts in the next five years. this bill is designed to give a jump-start to the economy. and i must say, a lot of the republican senators that are holding it up, when mr. bush was president, voted for billions of dollars of emergency spending of just this kind -- much of it was totally unrelated to creating jobs. so what i'm trying to do is to break this logjam. i've held out an olive branch, i've offered a compromise. but i think that we ought to try to put some more americans to work right now to show that we're changing the direction of the country. and that's the purpose of the bill. q have you been in touch with senator specter or his office lately? the president: well, we've been trying to talk regularly to -- through my white house congressional liaison operation to the senators that we think are open to this -- senator specter, senator d'amato from new york, senator jeffords from vermont, senator hatfield from oregon, and five or six others whom we believe know we need more jobs in this economy and know that we are paying for this with budget cuts over the life of the budget i presented. you know, it has a lot of appeal to say, well, we've got a big deficit, we shouldn't increase it more. but the truth is that we are paying for this with budget cuts in the whole life of the budget over the next few years. and more importantly, we have this program well below the spending targets that congress has already approved for this year. and they've done this for years, with the republicans voting for it -- many republicans voting for it -- for things that weren't nearly as important as putting the american people back to work. so i just hope that this doesn't become a political issue. it ought to just be about the people of this country and the need for jobs. q i have some questions from people who supported you, and some people who are skeptical about your administration. it has to do with their hopes, and also with their fears. a lot of people who supported you and voted for you in pennsylvania --i think some of them are now saying, we're glad we got him in the white house, but now look at this incredible process he has to go through. look at these problems. look at this gridlock. and they're beginning to wonder, is this going to work; can you pull it off? and, of course, your skeptics are saying, well, i knew it was going to be like this. the president: well, what i would -- i'd ask people, first of all, to remember that we are, frankly, moving very fast. the budget resolution that the congress passed is the fastest they have ever passed a budget resolution -- ever -- in history, setting out the next five-year budget targets. so we are moving really rapidly. and we've got them working on political reform, welfare reform, health care reform, a whole wide range of things. but it's a big operation. you can't expect to turn it around overnight. it took 12 years to produce the conditions which led to the victory i received from the people in november, and we can't turn it around in 90 days. but i think we're making real, real progress. i would urge the people not to get discouraged. we're not going to win every battle, and not everything is going to happen overnight. but we are definitely moving and changing q thank you very much. the president of the united states, bill clinton, here live at pittsburgh international airport. i'm mike whitely, kdka news. end10:31 a.m. edt 
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 the white house office of the press secretary (pittsburgh, pennslyvania) for immediate release april 17, 1993 radio address to the nation by the president pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh, pennsylvania 10:06 a.m. edt the president: good morning. my voice is coming to you this morning through the facilities of the oldest radio station in america, kdka in pittsburgh. i'm visiting the city to meet personally with citizens here to discuss my plans for jobs, health care and the economy. but i wanted first to do my weekly broadcast with the american people. i'm told this station first broadcast in 1920 when it reported that year's presidential elections. over the past seven decades presidents have found ways to keep in touch with the people, from whistle-stop tours to fire-side chats to the bus tour that i adopted, along with vice president gore, in last year's campaign. every saturday morning i take this time to talk with you, my fellow americans, about the problems on your minds and what i'm doing to try and solve them. it's my way of reporting to you and of giving you a way to hold me accountable. you sent me to washington to get our government and economy moving after years of paralysis and policy and a bad experiment with trickle-down economics. you know how important it is for us to make bold, comprehensive changes in the way we do we live in a competitive global economy. nations rise and fall on the skills of their workers, the competitiveness of their companies, the imagination of their industries, and the cooperative experience and spirit that exists between business, labor and government. although many of the economies of the industrialized world are now suffering from slow growth, they've made many of the smart investments and the tough choices which our government has for too long ignored. that's why many of them have been moving ahead and too many of our people have been falling behind. we have an economy today that even when it grows is not producing new jobs. we've increased the debt of our nation by four times over the last 12 years, and we don't have much to show for it. we know that wages of most working people have stopped rising, that most people are working longer work weeks and that too many families can no longer afford the escalating cost of health care. but we also know that, given the right tools, the right incentives and the right encouragement, our workers and businesses can make the kinds of products and profits our economy needs to expand opportunity and to make our communities better places to live. in many critical products today americans are the low cost, high quality producers. our task is to make sure that we create more of those kinds of jobs. just two months ago i gave congress my plan for long-term jobs and economic growth. it changes the old priorities in washington and puts our emphasis where it needs to be -- on people's real needs, on increasing investments and jobs and education, on cutting the federal deficit, on stopping the waste which pays no dividends, and redirecting our precious resources toward investment that creates jobs now and lays the groundwork for robust economic growth in the future. these new directions passed the congress in record time and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in our country. then the jobs plan i presented to congress, which would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, most of them in the private sector in 1993 and 1994, passed the house of representatives. it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate. but it's been held up by a filibuster of a minority in the senate, just 43 senators. they blocked a vote that they know would result in the passage of our bill and the creation of jobs. the issue isn't politics; the issue is people. millions of americans are waiting for this legislation and counting on it, counting on us in washington. but the jobs bill has been grounded by gridlock. i know the american people are tired of business as usual and politics as usual. i know they don't want us to spin or wheels. they want the recovery to get moving. so i have taken a first step to break this gridlock and gone the extra mile. yesterday i offered to cut the size of this plan by 25 percent -- from $16 billion to $12 billion. it's not what i'd hoped for. with 16 million americans looking for full-time work, i simply can't let the bill languish when i know that even a compromise bill will mean hundreds of thousands of jobs for our people. the mandate is to act to achieve change and move the country forward. by taking this initiative in the face of an unrelenting senate talkathon, i think we can respond to your mandate and achieve a significant portion of our original goals. first, we want to keep the programs as much as possible that are needed to generate jobs and meet human needs, including highway and road construction, summer jobs for young people, immunization for children, construction of waste water sites, and aid to small businesses. we also want to keep funding for extended unemployment compensation benefits, for people who have been unemployed for a long time because the economy isn't creating jobs. second, i've recommended that all the other programs in the bill be cut across-the-board by a little more than 40 and third, i've recommended a new element in this program to help us immediately start our attempt to fight against crime by providing $200 million for cities and towns to rehire police officers who lost their jobs during the recession and put them back to work protecting our people. i'm also going to fight for a tough crime bill because the people of this country need it and deserve it. now, the people who are filibustering this bill -- the republican senators -- say they won't vote for it because it increases deficit spending, because there's extra spending this year that hasn't already been approved. that sounds reasonable, doesn't it? here's what they don't say. this program is more than paid for by budget cuts over my five-year budget, and this budget is well within the spending limits already approved by the congress this year. it's amazing to me that many of these same senators who are filibustering the bill voted during the previous administration for billions of dollars of the same kind of emergency spending, and much of it was not designed to put the american people to work. this is not about deficit spending. we have offered a plan to cut the deficit. this is about where your priorities are -- on people or on politics. keep in mind that our jobs bill is paid for dollar for dollar. it is paid for by budget cuts. and it's the soundest investment we can now make for ourselves and our children. i urge all americans to take another look at this jobs and investment program; to consider again the benefits for all of us when we've helped make more american partners working to ensure the future of our nation and the strength of our economy. you know, if every american who wanted a job had one, we wouldn't have a lot of the other problems we have in this country today. this bill is not a miracle, it's a modest first step to try to set off a job creation explosion in this country again. but it's a step we ought to take. and it is fully paid for over the life of our budget. tell your lawmakers what you think. tell them how important the bill is. if it passes, we'll all be winners. good morning, and thank you for listening. end 10:11 a.m. edt 
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 so, one should properly write "who's promiscuous?" the answer is: "many homosexuals are." not quite. the answer is: many homosexuals, heterosexual, and bisexuals are, but then, many are not. or, more simply: lots of people are. o- tzoq "i am a good speller, i am -- c-a-t, dog... ^ ^ o o- tzoq@uwo.ca b-a-t, rhode island..." `v' o- redekop@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca -- junyer bear ^ = bernoulli would have been content to die, had he but known such a^2 cos 2phi = 
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 the clinton administration wants to "manage" your use of digital encryption. this includes a proposal which would limit your use of encryption to a standard developed by the nsa, the technical details of which would remain classified with the government. this cannot be allowed to happen. it is a bit unfair to call blame the clinton administration alone...this initiative was underway under the bush administration...it is basically a bipartisan effort of the establishment demopublicans and republicrats...the same bipartisan effort that brought the s&l scandal, and bcci, etc. 
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 a sad day for civil rights. but typical of nc (unfortunately.) if it is typical for the principle of reasonable doubt to be upheld in north carolina, then i would count that in the state's favor. reasonable doubt dates back to human rights. we are now in the time of civil rights. civil rights are issued by the state with whatever strings attached they choose as the grantor of said rights. and if that means that verdicts are determined by the needs of the state rather than by guilt or innocence in a traditional sense, so be it. being subjective rather than objective may make it harder to anticipate what is right, and you may be sacrificed for being wrong inadvertantly once in a while, but that really is a small price to pay for the common good don't you think? cutter@gloster.via.mind.org (chris) all jobs are easy to the person who doesn't have to do them. holt's law 
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough examination of american men's sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. 1) so what? so there are less gays, then the gays claim. last i checked i was one person, i haven't even been elected as a representative for "gaydom". should i ascribe every thing you say as representing every member of the straight community? 2) it will be interesting to see the reaction when 2.5million queers gather in washington dc. after all if there are only 6million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history... dream on. abortion and african-american civil rights rallies don't even bring in half of that. thats the point. if there are several million queers in dc you had better start wondering about the validity of the study. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 1) so what? so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars. so if this study is proved wrong then it proves that heterosexuals are liars? unlike the propaganda spouted by the far right the ten percent figure was backed up by the best study available at the time. its hardly certain that this new study is correct since it hasn't even been out for enough time for any double checking to happen. the alan guttmacher institute, btw, is funded by planned parenthood, so it hardly qualifies as a bastion of conservatism, or of "family values". of course if they had found 10% then it would be invalid because it was funded by planned parenthood :) 2) it will be interesting to see the reaction when 2.5million queers gather in washington dc. after all if there are only 6million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history... this preassumes that 2.5 million queers will show up on april 25th. there won't be anywhere near that many. go ahead -- make my day -- promote that number. that way, it will surely be a much greater embarrassment and slap in the face to homosexual activists when the crowds are much smaller. even if its "only" one million the point still stands. even getting 1/6th of a given population in one place would be unprecidented. if even 1 million show up in dc it will raise serious doubts about this study, or indicate a resolve unprecidented in human history. btw, have you noticed that even slick willie isn't going to be in town that day? he isn't the target of the march, nor do presidents often speak at civil rights marchs (of course it would have been nice). however the republicans and conservative democrats would do well to take ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry. this is quite amusing. obviously you know nothing about the history of math. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 :on a case by case basis, the cost/benefit ratio of government regulation :is obviously worthwhile. the libertarian agenda, however, does not call :for this assessment. it assumes that the costs of regulation (of any :kind) always outweigh its benefits. this approach avoids all sorts of :difficult analysis, but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic, :to say the least. i assume you mean that analyzing the cost/benefit ratio of government regulation on a case by case basis is worthwhile. let me suggest that this is not an option. regulators regulate, it's what they do. i'm not sure why you don't consider it an option. no one suggests that such analysis should be left to "regulators." in fact, the "re-inventing government" movement provides just such a cost/benefit approach to the analysis of public spending. libertarians would do well to learn more about it. it might be possible to pass an amendment which would prevent any liscensing laws from being valid, assuming you could convince people that it would overall be a good idea. eliminating the liscensing laws which serve no good purpose (the vast majority of them) while maintaining the worthwhile ones (assuming there are any) is not feasible. sorry, but it strikes me that it is the only "feasible" approach. what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent :i have no objection to an analysis of medical care, education, :national defense or local police that suggests a "free market" can provide :a more effective, efficient means of accomplishing social objectives :than is provided through "statist" approaches. with some notable :exceptions, however, i do not see such nitty-gritty, worthwhile :analysis being carried out by self-professed libertarians. :jsh i note that the above examples tend to be among the few government areas likely to win some approval among libertarians anyway. actually, the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense. (it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non-coercion, the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns....hmmm...) the most objectionable government expenditures are entitlements, which also are the biggest. certain individuals will suggest that these should be considered defense on the grounds that they are a sort of danegeld to would-be revolutionaries, but i personally don't feel we have much to fear from an alliance of geezers and unwed mothers. maybe i've led too sheltered a life. perhaps you have. may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of "geezers," mothers and children. governments that ignore such people on the grounds that "we don't have much to fear" from them do so at their own peril. mr. grinch steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 |> or are they simply propogranda? we can't know what phill *really* |>means because he's obviously using arguments designed to convince. i make no secret of what i am up to, i have stated explicitly in posts that i am a political propagandist on numerous occasions. anyone posting to this group who is not probably has the wrong group. for example i have on numerous occasions stated quite clearly that i beleive that certain factions of the gun lobby are the worst possible advocates of their cause and i am prepared to do anything in my power to provide them with a platform because they can convince people far better than i could hope that many people with a fixation on lethal weapons are dangerous and derranged. if you happen to know a political position which does not have people advocating it who do more harm than good, please point it some people have even accused me of inventing such advocates purely for the purpose of having them trash a set of political views. in fact this would be a futile tactic because i could never hope to invent a character as dangerous as sybok.athena.edu, a man who i quite seriously believe to be mentaly ill and a potential psychopath. unfortunately the local sherifs office have informed me that they are unable to act untill he attacks someone. one of the advantages and draw-backs of requiring proof on the part of the government before they may take action against citizens. (and part of the reason some of us believe weapons should be available.) so if you were to ask me what is the point that i am trying to make from this current argument on the absolute sanctity of the us constitution what would i answer? we are not arguing the absolute sanctity of the u.s. constitution. in fact, the fillibuster we're talking about isn't *in* the constitution. i objected to your suggestion that the senate wasn't intended to exercise the power it was clearly given. firstly i see that the current us political scene like the uk political scene has become tied to special interests. rather than chase the convenient caricatures put about by the media and polititians themselves for this - gay rights cmapaigners, environmentalists, zionists (i.e. jews), "foreign lobbyists" - whatever voting power they have etc. i sugest that you look at who is really benefiting. the inevitable conclusion is that it is the major corporations owned by the ultra-wealthy that have benefited. regan and bush created what can only be described as a welfare state for the rich. i'll point out again that reagan only had a republican majority in the senate during his first term, and his coalition in the house came apart at about the same time. bush never had any real support in the real point is that everybody, *everywhere* got their pork, from the big corporations to the guy i saw last night leaving a convenience store with an armful of junk-food he'd bought with food stamps. (he spent more in food stamps on junk than i *make* in a week and i'm not on government assitance.) money was diverted from programs addressing social needs and poured into the weapons industry in the form of cost plus profits contracts. lessee, let's pull out the old almanac. in 1980, total u.s. government budget outlays were 590.9 billion dollars. in 1992 (est) they were 1.4754 trillion dollars, an increase of approx. 884 billion dollars. in 1980, national defense cost 133.9 billion dollars. in 192 it was 307 billion dollars, and increase of 174 billion dollars. that leaves an increase of 710 billion dollars unaccounted for. (this represented an increase of 230%) in 1980, income security (which includes retirement programs, housing assitance, and unemployment benefits, and i believe welfare) cost 86.5 billion dollars. in 1992 it was 198 billion dollars, or more than national defense started. (this represented an increase of 230%) in 1980, the federal government spent 32 billion dollars on medicare. in 1992 they spent 118 billion dollars. (an increase of 368%) in 1980, the feds spent 9 billion dollars on housing credits and subsidies of that like. in 1992 it was 87 billion. in 1980, health care services and research was 23 billion dollars. in 1992, it was 94 billion dollars. agriculture, up 9 billion to 17 billion. science, up 11 billion to 16 billion. resource conservation up 7 billion to 20 billion. education up 14 billion to 45 billion. veteran benefits up 12 billion to 33 billion. trasnportation up 13 billion to 34 billion. about the only things i see which was seriously decreased was under the energy category, primarily under "supply," and "community development," in the area of "disaster relief," and between the two of them represent a loss of less than 11 billion dollars. where *was* this huge diversion? in order to rectify this situation there must be constitutional revision. not that's a stretch. if the current government was pushed by the president to create this mess, wouldn't one expect it to begin to equalize once the pressure is gone? secondly the form of this revision must take account of the changed circumsatnces of the role of the federal government. only assuming that the new role is a positive role we want to continue. i see very little positive about it. the constitution cannot be used to frustrate the democratic process. the constitution was *designed* to frustrate the democratic process, so that the voters could be absolutely sure they were getting what they wanted by the time it happened. nor do i see putting the brakes on the "democratic process" an inherently bad thing. califronia's riding the edge and every time they pull their ballot initiative nonsense it gets worse. if the peoplr want to have welfare spending by the federal government they will have sometimes, or perhaps most of the time, the people should be told, "no," and pointed to their local government. attempting to prevent this through constitutional trickery only leads to the constitution being brought into disrepute. phill, would you do me the very great favor of repeating that in talk.politics.guns? methods will always be found to bypass such provisions and once the government gets used to bypassing those provisions they will bypass the others up to the first ammendment. cute. we can eliminate violations of the law by eliminating the law. this is a major reason why the right to own guns should be excluded, the implication that this right is equal to the right to free speech is dangerous. free speech alone is dangerous, phill. people know that mass ownership of lethal weapons causes thousands of murders a year, the dangerous conclusion they may reach is that the first ammendment may also be the same dangerous mistake. ok, phill. all you gotta show me is a clear pattern of *reduction* in homicide rates across several countries and that'll be it. (not current, mind, you, reduction.) note however that this is not the slippery slope argument. it is because the right freedom of speech has been chained to the privilege to own weaponry that the danger arises. the advocates of this pivilege must not be allowed to chain freedom of speech to their cause such that if they fall freedom of speech falls as well. such actions are not the actions of people genuinely interested in freedom. who's chaining anything to freedom of speech? by *calling* it a freedom? thirdly and most importantly i want to discover a mechanism wherby i can engender intellectual debate as opposed to totemic debate. i consider the grave threat to civilisation to be the loss of the ability to reason about the political debate at anything other than the superficial level. the objection i raise to your basing your case entirely on the assertion of the supremacy of the us constitution is that the currency of your argument is limited to the currency of the totem upon which it is based. the danger of totems is that they can be reinterpreted in different ways by different people. phill, you're a master of subtly changing the subject. i haven't *based* my argument against raw democracy on the constitution. i've tried to explain why it isn't a good idea. the only time i've referred to the constitution is to point out it doesn't contain the restrictions on the veto and the senate you appear to believe were "meant," but just didn't make it in there. the constitution doesn't *contain* the 41% fillibuster rule. i only believe that the rule is a good idea. you cn't dismiss that as venerating the constitution because it isn't *in* the constitution. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 |automobiles belonging to personnel associated with the embassies from various |nations have diplomatic license plates. they are red, white, and blue and |read dll #### where "l" is a letter and the #'s are numbers. the "d" means diplomatic and the "l"s indicate which country. a few years ago the actually, teh d means the registered driver has diplomatic immunity. that means they can do as they damn well please on the roads, and you have only god as your protection. the state department issues saa-xxx plates for personnel who work at the embassies but haven't been granted immunity. most embassies have restricted parking for embassy personell street side. the s plates allow them to use those parking areas as well as the restricted lots at national and state dept, without a lot of crap. 
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 the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees. lack of defensive medicine and near-absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance then why do we really need national health insurance then? wouldn't it just make more sense to find some way to cut down on the cost of malpractice insurance? and maybe that's not such a good thing. i also read somewhere that it is next to impossible in canada to litigate against the health system-class action suits are nearly impossible, and you can't sue the provincial health officials at all. part of the deal for using the all-insurance approach like the french and germans do (hey, why don't they criticize france and germany? is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick? (-;) was to preserve the doctors independance. since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented, the politically-bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish, especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain's national health service. oh no. don't let the ama know about this. they have enough power as it is. ask most americans whether they'd like the doctors' lobby to get more powerful. for non-life threatening things, market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand. i have md friends who can't make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won't get enough customers -- the cma medical monopoly's grip on doctors licencing (as in the us) aside -- so they must move to larger places. however, this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care, as has been done in the u.s. by consumers reports, health policy studies cited by prof. dennis e. shea on usenet, cnn, nyt, etc. well, yeah, tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa. theoretically it's limited to service personnel, but some studies i've heard about have suggested that about half the patients there are civilians who not only have connections but aren't "urgent" at all. the problem is, in a system where hospitals' annual budgets are approved by the government, how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions? i bet that if you're an mp or mpp, or good friends with one, you're put on any hospital's "urgent" care list no matter how minor your problem. which is ok unless you're someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot. wouldn't national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less? in canada, provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care, eyeglasses, prescription drugs, ambulance service, and private hospital rooms, -- so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance. a policy to cover all of these things runs about #40 to $40 a month. hmm. how much difference would it make in the figure of percentage of gnp spent on health care if dentistry and optometry were included in the accounting? maybe canada spends proportionately just as much on health care as we do. of course, the one thing to note is that in the canada/france/germany case, private insurance *offloaded* the basic coverage to the public sector. they realized they were keeping low-risk/high-profit extra insurance for things like private/semi-private rooms (vs. ward accomodation), dental, glasses, etc. for corporate or personal benefits, they'll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care. at that point, they wouldn't even consider a "voucher" approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff. so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse. bob rae, the second least popular man in ontario, warned ontarians a few years ago that if they didn't stop cross-border shopping in such huge numbers, "the services they expect from the province just won't be there in a few years" (fortunately for them (and less fortunately for the retailers here in western new york) the canadian dollar went back to a more realistic value). he didn't say so, but i knew he meant the ohip. what would happen if his warning turned out to be the truth? would the private insurers take up the slack? they'd be under no obligation to. of course, they could eventually make money again, but if what you say is true, they'd be loathe to do so (and out of practice in handling such basic services, too). wouldn't free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain? people who get free treatment *do* go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical still, canadians -- who pay nothing at the doctor's -- have a lower per-person health bill than we do. it is "free" in that there are no deductibles nor copayments (two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance -- which actually it is). i know that when working in alberta, ontario and quebec, i was aware that i was paying for health insurance - e.g., in toronto, ohip fees were listed on my pay stub; manitoba did not collect at paycheque time, but only annually at income tax time (built into the tax rate). only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it's free, along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda. would that it were free. americans would start another revolution if they had to pay taxes at canadian rates. isn't the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill? dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be "politically thorny," in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan. some 1,200 firms now sell more than $192 billion in health insurance. they'd put up a hard fight. not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers, but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada's parliamentary system. health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe, its just that it doesn't cover basic care. you can opt out in canada and germany, but you'll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so --- i.e., no market. when private insurance realized how much money they'd make without the risks involved in basic insurance (e.g., neurosurgery) versus deluxe amenities (e.g., having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone's private hospital room), they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility. in quebec last spring, a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine, low cost parts of that province's public health insurance plan. again, i doubt americans would like giving the insurance companies that much power. i half wonder if the canadian health insurers didn't go along with the provinces and the federal government years ago because they knew that there was a good chance of the public system going bust in the long run, and then afterwards they could clean up (okay, this sort of contradicts what i said higher up. but it's another possibility). they'd have an added bonus when arguing against government involvement in their industry-as they could then point to its failure instead of just citing theoretical principles. 
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 i didn't see your post so i can't comment on it. my $.02 on high speed rail is, i like it. i like it alot. it would be too bad to see it tainted by corruption. that's all. the speed limit on commuter tracks in the northeast is 120mph. we already have something that resembles high speed rail in this country and it requires massive government subsidies. we don't need another government boondoggle. john f. haugh ii [ pgp 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh ma bell: (512) 251-2151 [ dof #17 ] @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org look up "ponzi scheme" in a good dictionary - it will have a picture of joe liberal handout right next to it. stop federal spending. cut the deficit. 
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 ouch, now that really hurts. i'm being accused of no breadth nor depth to my historical knowledge because i'm unwilling to agree that economic inequality leads to poverty and from there to "social and political instability". you go read your history again. poverty is the main engine of social instability (in this context, we'll put aside religious turmoil, mass migrations, etc.). well, the fact of the matter is that poverty is imperfectly related to social and political instability, while economic inequality is much more strongly related. in virtually all major revolutions including england (the puritan revolution), france, russia and china, the revolutions occurred as economies were undergoing substantial long term growth and poverty was declining. what sets off revolutions is massive inequality coupled with a perception on the part of those at the bottom that social change is possible. if "poverty (were) the main engine of social instability," this typical historical pattern would not hold. in fact, revolutions would have been far more typical before the nineteenth century than since that time. [much deleted...] |> gee, jim, if you'll check the constitution you'll find "in order to... |> promote the general welfare...do ordain and establish this constitution..." |> i'm surprised you missed it. it's right there in the first paragraph. i |> would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble. you almost got it right, and it was a good try, but you should follow your own advice. the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble. it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law. that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language - witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land. do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to "promoting the general welfare" to be within the limits of the constitution? sorry, buddy, but some other "blowhards" managed to include the "general welfare" in another portion of the constitution. article i section 8: "the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes...to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states..." i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble. just to make sure you've got the point, let's do a little experiment. what if the constitution read as follows? preamble: we the people, to promote the general welfare, do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of constitution: the federal government shall have one function and one function only - to provide for the defense of the nation. but as noted above, the constitution doesn't say that, does it? the government would not then have two functions: defense and welfare. but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i, section 8, i guess you'll grant that botha are constitutional functions. right? steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 : it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any : reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams. ...society would collapse if most people were evil most of the time." -- david bergland "if people are basically evil, the last thing you'd want is a big government staffed by those evil folks exercising control over you." -- david bergland "freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people -- and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress." -- u.n. report : the argument is not between those who want "limited" government and those : who want "unlimited" government. it is between those who believe : government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and : those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical : grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds. good summary... selling your labor or goods so that you can eat and buy a house is essential so that you can excercise your personal freedoms. paul schmidt: advocates for self-government, davy crockett chapter president and this demonstrates, i assume, that you're a liberal. :-). steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 :it would seem that a society with a "failed" government would be an ideal :setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented. now why do you suppose :that never seems to occur?... i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place. constant combat isn't particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing. also, they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway. and the reason that the soviet union couldn't achieve the ideal of pure communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations...uh huh. somehow, this all sounds familiar. once again, utopian dreams are confronted by the real world... mr. grinch steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 |> >in article <1993apr15.170731.8797@isc-br.isc-br.com>, steveh@thor.isc-br.com (steve hendricks) writes... |> of course, one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government |> power (and keeps it circumscribed) in a complex society when it is in the |> interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using |> government power for their own ends. but apart from that little |> conundrum... this is a difficult problem for which there is no obviously good solution. one approach is simply to try and move political opinion and hope a new more libertarian consensus lasts for a while. another approach is to try and amend the constitution. the original constitution restrained the u.s. government from economic intervention for 100 to 150 years, depending on just how one wants to count it. the first amendment, though weakened in many ways, still restrains government (particularly state and local), even though on many particular issues the majority is in favor of censorship. i think libertarians would be happy with another 100 years of restraint via an amendment or two (not that i think that's likely to happen). not necessarily mr. hendricks, but other posters seem to see this as a problem with libertarianism, that it cannot be stable. that might be true, but it is not an objection to libertarianism per se. if a libertarian political consensus forms for a decade or two and then falls apart again, we would just be back where we are now. this is unlike the case for socialism where a socialist consensus that held for a while and then fell apart would not leave us where we are now, but instead with lots of bureaucracy that would be hard to get rid of, if not tyranny as the end condition of a strong socialist consensus. ervan darnell ervan@cs.rice.edu 
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 how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit? i'm curious why you think that particular adjective is important. i'm curious why you took a beign statement and cross-posted it to several different news groups, including something along the lines of alt.discrimination. exsqueeze me? i saw *your* original post in alt.discrimination. your post was cross-posted to three groups. my followup was cross-posted to two of those three (omitting soc.motss). now, instead of engaging in meta-discussion off the topic, could you answer the question posed? if your statement is so "beign"(!?), you should have no trouble politely responding to a polite query. ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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 what they broke in the dnc for is still open to serious question. some tape archivists suggest what they were after had something to do with the kennedy assasination. let's hear all of the tapes real soon, shall we? 
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 : the selective service registration should be abolished. to start with, the : draft is immoral. whether you agree with that or not, we don't have one now, : and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior : with a volunteer army than with draftees. finally, the government has us : on many lists in many computers (the irs, social security admistration and : motor vehicle registries to name a few) and it can find us if it needs to. : maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time. : let's axe this whole department, and reduce the deficit a little bit. more "gridlock" talk from another relic of the past. the selective service system creates jobs and is an investment in the future of america......and whats wrong with that? we need jobs because at this point in the recovery, the economy should have generated 10 billion jobs and since it has not, the government has to step in and help. shutting down selective service would cost "good jobs" and we can't do that. what we really need is to involve selective service in a more closely directed manner. we need the selective service involved in environmental protection, high-speed rail, commuter aircraft, civil rights, national service and health care. every dollar we put into selective service now will get us $10 less spending in future. i really believe now to think about it that selective service is long-past due for the creation of a cabinet position. your not beyond hope, just get back on america's side and start doing your part for change. what bill needs from you now is support for the economic stimulus and health care reform. you need to devote all your energies to fighting gridlock and supporting change. get on the team. after all, the evil has been banished from washington and the time for complaint is past being neccessary. and remember, bill clinton cares. he may someday even have a town meeting in your city. if your an appropriate sort of person, if you phrase your questions properly and show the proper respect and awe, you might have the chance to ask mr, president your question in person. 
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 : oh, and btw, its william jefferson blythe clinton. no, it's not- and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult. do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing? no, it's a sign of aristocrtic out-of-touchness with the middle class. you ask george herbert walker bush about that. and that's not his full name? what, then, is it? "even quayle had his honeymoon period. it lasted a full 48 hours after he was chosen as bush's running mate." kevin j. podsiadlik | vaporware engineer 2nd class | "this 'contribution' the president wants e-mail: hampton@ais.org | us to make... is it tax deductible?" compuserve: 71460,3602 | -- larry wright 
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 :>:it would seem that a society with a "failed" government would be an ideal :>:setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented. now why do you suppose :>:that never seems to occur?... :>i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place. constant :>combat isn't particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing. also, :>they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable :>society anyway. :and the reason that the soviet union couldn't achieve the ideal of pure :communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations...uh huh. :somehow, this all sounds familiar. once again, utopian dreams are :confronted by the real world... steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com steve, you're the one who suggested that a failed government should be an ideal proving ground, i never felt that way in the first place. quite the contrary, i think a better proving ground would be someplace that already had a governemnt that would prevent outright acts of agression, yet had a strong spirit of individualism and initiative. someplace like... texas :-) mr. grinch 
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 tfarrell@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (thomas farrell) said: a good case? a f**king good case? the defense lawyer asked the victim questions like "what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in?" and you think he made a good case????? speaking as someone who's only about six weeks and a $6,900 tuition bill away from becoming an unemployed slob with a law degree, i'd really like to see a transcript of this trial. i'd especially like to know what happened immediately after the defense attorney asked that question (assuming that the reports that he did so are accurate... i'm not accusing tom farrell of making anything up, but this _is_ the sort of case that spawns garbled misquotes, false rumors and urban legends like tribbles). it'd be nice to think that the prosecutor objected (irrelevant, prejudicial, inflammatory... take your pick) and that the judge upheld the objection. i did hear this question asked during a radio news update of the case. (they were talking about the ongoing trial and had some audio clips). immediately after the defense attorney asked the question, there was an "objection!" heard in the background. the clip ended at that point so i don't know if the objection was upheld. i can't imagine nc is *that* bad. the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die, and you think the defense made a good case????? no wonder we're losing! we're aparently not trying to win! again, i'd like to see the transcript... i'd read the latter bit of that in the news media (the arresting officer testifying that one of the defendants calmly asked him about the condition of the "homo" and said that he hoped he'd die) but this is the first i've heard of the officer testifying that one of the defendants actually said that he did anything at all, let alone that he did it on purpose. this i didn't hear as an audio clip but heard it reported a number of times on news stories both during and after the trial. now the "we did it on purpose" thing is stretching, i think it was something more like--he had it coming. if somebody else remebers better than i on this second point, feel free to frank r. chloupek chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu department of physics -- *the* ohio state university (not just any ohio state university) "there is only one hard-and-fast rule about the place to have a party: somebody else's place." --p.j. o'rourke 
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 didn't the new study asked "have you engaged in homosexual intercourse within the last two years" whereas kinsey asked "have you ever engaged or thought about engaging in homosexual activity". sort of like the difference between "did you have yogurt this morning" and "are you allergic to lactose". -- michal impressive amounts of material can be accreted in this manner. 
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 okay, let me try to explain this. when one votes for such a creature as a senator or, worse yet, a president, one votes not for specific policies but for a general package which must cover all issues for 4 or 6 years. as such, one's influence is highly diluted. i might add that, even if one were free to vote on individual regulations, the vast amount of time required for considering a particular regulation, combined with the very small chance of one's vote making a difference, would make it unreasonable to expect the voter to make an intelligent decision with respect to specific regulations. i'm afraid that i've lost the thread here. i didn't suggest that all government regulations be subject to referenda. so i don't follow the comments above. :sorry, but it strikes me that it is the only "feasible" approach. what is :not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and :licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent :tasks. i'm not sure what you mean by "feasible" in this case. do you mean that [] are impossible in priciple, or merely that it would be undesirable in i mean that an ideology that treats all government regulation as equally undesirable and seeks to abolish all regulations is unlikely to draw support among more than a miniscule portion of the electorate. furthermore, i am suggesting that such a plan is not feasible in an industrial society because the weight of litigation and/or misery it would produce would effectively crush productive effort. :actually, the only areas of public spending above that strike me as :generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense. :(it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to :be to a principle of non-coercion, the only areas of public spending :that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns....hmmm...) you say this as if it were surprising, yet in fact a necessary consequence of libertarian philosophy. all non-coersive functions should be dealt with privately, therefore it follows that the only functions remaining to the state are the coersive ones. no, i'm not surprised. i just think it's interesting that on one hand libertarians assume a limited government can be decreed, yet on the other posit an entire government made up of people who carry guns. (i realize that many libertarians assume that such a government will be counterbalanced by a fully armed citizenry, but it is worth noting that widespread civilian ownership of guns does not necessarily prevent the establishment of totalitarian government, e.g. iraq.) :perhaps you have. may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries :frequently generate support by acting as protectors of "geezers," :mothers and children. governments that ignore such people on the grounds :that "we don't have much to fear" from them do so at their own peril. much more likely it's drunken teenagers. the groups in questionare more likely to be worse off during and after a revolution than before. in the unlikely event that you missed my earlier sarcasm, let me say this directly: the idea that such programs as social security or afdc should be considered "defense" (an idea which has been advanced in ths and other newsgroups) is so absurd a lie as to be unworthy of consideration. do you seriously dispute this? yup, sure do. but since i also support the constitutional requirement that the government provide for the general welfare (article i section 8), i'm willing to justify such programs on that basis. i don't want to seem patronizing, but you still seem to be laboring under the delusion that under a socialized economic system it is reasonably intelligent and honest persons (like yourself) who make the decisions. i feel any third party added to a transaction is every bit as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller. i don't expect you to agree with me, but you explain why you feel i'm wrong? well, in the first place, i don't support a "socialized economic system." i think within limits that capitalism is a fine idea. but it is not the case that "any third party...is...as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller." there are multitudes of examples where such a statement is demonstrably false. regulation of stock market transactions that provide a reasonable basis for buyers to avoid fraud is only one mr. grinch steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 william@fractl.tn.cornell.edu said in response to dave borden: you selfish little bastard. afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country. what someone not approve a lone for you ? to bad. what is immoral is: people like you and the current president who don't have any idea why this country still exists after 200+ william: if the reason that this country still stands after 200+ years is that it uses military conscription to force young men to fight for causes that they don't believe in strongly enough to volunteer for military service in support of, then perhaps the fact that the country is still standing is not good news... -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> 
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 in a previous article, helfman@aero.org (robert s. helfman) says: if you look through this newsgroup, you should be able to find clinton's proposed "wiretapping" initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems. this 'initiative" has been up before congress for at least the past 6 months, in the guise of the "fbi wiretapping" what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage? would they be what kind of brainless clod doesn't understand the difference between a "proposed bill, blocked in congress" and an "executive order, issued by clinton, and crammed down our throats". here, let me give a remedial course in thinking: in order to create the appearance of low interest rates, uncle sam has shifted his debt from long-term to short-term securities. in effect, uncle sam has transformed the federal goverment into one giant s&l, waiting to blow. short-term rates rise ---> interest payments on deficit rise ---> uncle sammy has to borrow more ----> causing short-term rates to rise. uncle sammy gets caught in a positive feedback loop. his options: i) raise taxes a truly unimaginable amount ii) make truly unimaginable spending cuts results of i): large numbers of pissed-off citizens results of ii): large numbers of pissed-off citizens uncle sammy has thoughtfully taken the initiative to pre-empt the use of communication newtworks to foster a nation-wide, grassroots 
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 how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit? i'm curious why you think that particular adjective is important. black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr. king. from many of the newspaper, radio, and tv news reports i have seen, this adjective is commonly in front of his name. i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner. i did not say that mr. king was a no good black! i do not know mr. king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect. i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many ( most ) news people have used it in the past. no one is questioning whether mr. king is black. the question arises whether king's race should make police officers "afraid as hell." your statement seems to imply that cops should have a different standard for large black guys than for just large guys in general. that two posts later you don't understand why anyone pointed out your use of the adjective is almost as informative as your original use. ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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 pps: why is there still no call to end clinton's illegal war in somalia????? hold on there tex - it's not his war. everybody knows that its part of the reaganbushlegacy. yeah, sure. they created the starvation there. they put the warlords there. yep. sure. been brainwashed by the media, haven't you? he probably is. by the way: what has reagan to do with this any way? i bet most people had never even heard of somalia, during the reagan administration! ok boys and girls, "what was the 'ogadan war'????" the money raised in band-aid covered how much of the cost of which soviet client state to replace what catagory of weapon system lost in the aforementioned war? why was the joke: "we arm the world." really not that funny? gonzo station is the designation for which usn op area? and the primary threat targets in the area were:..... "all hands to the big sea of comedy! all hands to the big sea of comedy!" -last call of the wild of the humour lemmings 
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 i am so tired about all this debate on how many gays there are! such arguments are basically worthless, imho. would it really matter if it were millions of people who are regularly denied access to housing, employment, and personal security or even only one? as for death threats, i happen to know from personal experience that gay people are far more likely to receive them based on political veiws or even personal philosophies related to the issue of sexual orientation than are heterosex uals. not a week goes by that i personally or one of my friends is not physically or verbally harrassed for even appearing to be gay. everyone is garaunteed certain unalienable rights under our current form of government in theory, yet every day gay people are victimized by their local governments, by the police force, and by (for the most part) an uninformed and ignorant public. is this democracy? i don't think so. a society's sense of justice is judged on the basis of the treatment of the people who make up that society. all of those people. and yes, that includes gays, lesbians, and bisexuals whose "crimes" have no victims, and who are as varied and diverse as the society of wich they are a part. frank jordan  gay arab bassoonists unite!!! 
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 rscharfy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (ryan c scharfy) said: however, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. [ryan c scharfy] or, the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish, and simply decriminalize cocaine, marijuana, heroin, lsd, etc. please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be "bought like cigarettes" is "just plain silly." after all, it works just fine for nicotine... [wdstarr] yeah, cancer is pretty cool, isn't it. ryan, please explain how the "coolness" or lack thereof of cancer is relevant to a discussion of the legalization of currently illegal recreational drugs. for that matter, please explain how it's even relevant to a discussion of currently _legal_ recreational drugs such as tobacco. [wdstarr] you said it worked so well with tobacco. i was being fascisious(i can't spell worth a damn) look, this is getting ridiculous, first, i think tobacco should be legal. anybody who can't see the difference between tobacco and marijuana has got to be high. 
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 however, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. plus, i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack, ecstasy, chrystal meth and lsd. the 60 minute report said it worked with "cocaine" cigarettes, pot and heroin. or, the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish, and simply decriminalize cocaine, marijuana, heroin, lsd, etc. please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be "bought like cigarettes" is "just plain silly." after all, it works just fine for nicotine... i'm all in favor of drug legalization, but i do see some problems with it. my hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose quickly, and be done with it, before making a mess of thisgs. let me get this straight: medical treatment costs too much and is inefficient, so we're going to let government make it better? 
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 i replied to your message, however, it is listed as a new topic with the title: "rnitedace and violence". possibly line noise or error caused to post as a new topic. i see it here as #100. 
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 i couldn't disagree with you more strongly. it sounds good, but in practice it too often becomes tyranny, because there are too often conflicting ideas of what constitutes "improving the human condition". far better to let people and their organizations pursue whatever goals they think best, and let "the human condition" be improved by those who are willing to do so without coercion. there will always be conflicting ideas on what constitutes "improving the human condition", that's humanity. you seem to believe that libertarianism will improve the human condition by lifting all constraints, and that people will have a better chance of improving themselves in that environment. let me try to put it another way. libertarians believe that an unconstrained environment provides the best chance of solving any problem because it maximizes creativity. however, there is never any guarantee that a really good solution will ever be found to any particular problem. "utopia is not an option." utopia is a myth (although we can do a lot better than what we have today). but i think that you must pitch libertarianism as a progressive agenda (ie you can do better under our style of system). i admire a lot of what the libertarians stand for, but you guys are some of the worst salesmen i have ever seen. and when it comes to politics, you need salesmen whether you want them or not. what we need are more people who agree with us, know something about marketin, and are willing to both do that marketing and teach others how to. are you in? i'm flattered by your invitation, but i'm afraid you have the wrong person. although i completely agree with your civil liberties agenda, i'm not in support of your economic agenda. what i do like about the libertarian party is that you guys are so good at shaking up the tired ideas of the past. i encourage you guys to continue your crusade, but i'm afraid i can't ride along. ian sutherland ian@eecs.nwu.edu "nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come." --tussman garrett@ingres.com /june "nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come." --tussman garrett@ingres.com "the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action." - unknown 
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 : [...] when you and the rest of the homosexual community : pass laws to impose your moral codes on me, by requiring me to : hire, rent to, or otherwise associate with a homosexual against : my will, yes, you are in my face. until homosexuals stop trying : to impose their morals on me, i will be in your face about this. ahh, what's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. you don't want homosexuals to impose their moral codes (such diabolical ideas as equal rights) on you, yet you are willing to impose your moral codes on them. do i detect a double standard? 
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 well, it seems the "national sales tax" has gotten its very own cnn news logo! cool. that means we'll be seeing it often. man, i sure am glad that i quit working ( or taking this seriously ) in 1990. if i kept busting my ass, watching time go by, being frustrated, i'd be pretty damn mad by yeah! free health care! oh, yeeaaaahhhh! heh heh " bill makes me feel like dancing! " more amazing predictions from the incredible bromeister! we take you back to feburary 20th, when the incredible bromeister predicted: " $1,000 per middle class taxpayer in new taxes " " a national sales tax " now, for more aammmaaaazzzzzziinnnnggggg predictions! i) the nst will be raised from 3% to 5% by 1996. ooops. they already did it. okay, then. the nst will be raised from 5% to 7% by 1996. ii) unemployment will rise! iii) tax revenues will decline. deficit will increase! we'll get another deficit reduction package by 1997! everyone will dance and sing! yup. i'm gonna <glancing at watch> bail out of here at 1 pm, amble on down to the lake. hang out. sit in the sun and take it easy! :) yeah! i just wish i had the e-mail address of total gumby who was saying that " clinton didn't propose a nst ". to paraphrase hilary clinton - " i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs " to paraphrase bill clinton - " i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs " 
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 look at the whole picture, not just randomly picked libertarian positions. if government is not allowed to use "non-initiated force" to achieve its goals, than no special interest can influence the government to use non-initiated force on their behalf. either the government has force available to it, or it doesn't. the libertarian position is that the government can use force only when someone else uses force first -- even when that first force is not directed against the government, but one of its citizens. that all being true, what safeguards do we have against the government claiming that some initiation of force on its part is really a response? (like the burning of the maine, the tonkin gulf incident, or the assault on waco?) i ask this not to argue, but to understand. (followups to alt.politics.libertarian only.) cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 |> ...you don't specify the means through which the government |> is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests. as a |> left-wing, big government, conventional liberal, i'm just as willing as |> you are to vote against anti-competitive regulations that favor auto |> dealers. |> but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents' terms, |> to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws, |> and a desire to eliminate legislator's pay. each strikes me as a |> particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special |> interests cannot influence public policy. in fact, they seem clearly |> designed to accomplish the opposite. ...if government is not allowed to use "non-initiated force" to achieve its goals, than no special interest can influence the government to use non-initiated force on their behalf. fine. libertarians and anarchists are not alone in being uncomfortable with the use of state sponsored coercion. the notion that coercion can be virtually eliminated in a society (or more properly that once it is eliminated on the part of the state it is no longer worth serious consideration) is a view that is peculiar to libertarians and anarchists. for example, does "non-initiated force" (coercion) include tax collection? does it include the minimal level of regulation of commerce envisioned by adam smith? since coercion can be exercised by actors other than the state, how is the state to deal with it? exclusively through after the fact arbitration/legal compulsion? the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i'll address briefly. it certainly won't happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy. what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy? statists run the education monopoly, so we have to be creative. the advocates for self-government reports 85% of their seminar 1 participants "embrace" libertarianism. that's the best means i've seen yet. we should lobby for compulsory seminar 1 attendance. :) [in jest!] well, i must admit that the picture of libertarians as amway participants is somewhat more reassuring than the idea of them trying to govern a complex, conflictual, industrial society. i'd venture to point out, however, that if libertarians couldn't convince at least 85% of a group of "seminar participants" to "embrace" their philosophy, their propaganda skills need to be honed. frankly, however, it is no great trick to create a government for a society in which (almost) everyone is assumed to agree about what is a proper government policy. once that is assumed, all sorts of annoying formalities can be dispensed with, elections, police, etc. and as mr. marx said, the state will just wither away. on the way there, however, would you like to explain how eliminating virtually all policies that restrain private coercion in the current society will help us to live happier lives? or is it like socialism; just some short-term pain that we'll have to bear until everyone has had the benefit of "re-education" through regular "seminar" training? roger collins steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 in a previous article, mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu (mark 'mark' sachs) says: (broward horne) says: it sure does appear that way, doesn't it? the attitude that people are stupid if they don't agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life. free advice, there. hahahahahah. oh, christ! oh, hahahahah. whew. mark, what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a "success", particularly now when i'll just the hell taxed out of me? oh, this is excellent. holy christ! :) besides, let's <ahem> examine the record, shall we? broward: " clinton's going to taxe the holy fuck out of you! " mark: " no, he's not. only $17 / month " ( i still get a laugh out of this one! :) ) broward: " oh, here comes a national sales tax " clinton supporter: " oh, no, bill never said that " want some more "free predictions" ? it always makes me smile, to see george bush used to defend bill clinton. can you imagine anything sadder than to be left with george bush as a final argument? true. the republicans did look pretty pathetic in november of '92. >:-) yup. they surely did. almost as pathetic as clinton suppoters are looking in april of 93. well, chumbo, i see my my watch here that my "appointment" at the lake is about 2 hours past due! :) you'll let me know who the "full-time" working thing works out, won't you? i want to enjoy every minute of my free time and free health care ( the only reason i would have gone back to working! :) thanks, bill! :) ) 
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 in a previous article, paul@hsh.com (paul havemann) says: all together now... c'mon, you know the words... "meet the new boss! same as the old boss!" and the chorus: "we won't get fooled again!" hmmm. can i, eh, get a little side bet on this one? 
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 on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done. the problem is not the cost, it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done. in case you haven't noticed, clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program. "access" here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. on the other hand, it would be kind of scary if there were *never* a final verdict, because a party to litigation could keep saying "oops! i forgot to bring up this evidence," and demand a new trial. you get one bite at the apple. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed? shouldn't that be up to a jury? it's up to general motors to find those witnesses in the first litigation. you'd be up in arms if a plaintiff suing general motors pulled the same stunt and made them relitigate an issue that they already lost. it's not as if general motors couldn't file enough discovery motions to delay the trial until they found all the witnesses they wanted. and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm? define "obvious bias." shouldn't that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial? did gm move for a new trial on those grounds? no? perhaps they had a ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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 on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done. the problem is not the cost, it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done. in case you haven't noticed, clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program. "access" here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps. i've read about more than a few of these programs that ran into problems in convincing parents to get their children immunized even when they were delivered to their doorstep. (i don't know, maybe that sheet they have to be informed of about possible risks, side- effects, and bad reactions scares them.) david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 top ten signs that it's the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue [biased and decidedly not-as-funny-as-dave stuff deleted...] i sure hope that someone somewhere is enjoying these "lists"... [stuff deleted] i'm no clinton fan, but i'm no ipser fan... then why not simply stop reading them. this isn't intended as a flame, but your post reminds me of the old joke: patient: "doctor it hurts when i do this." doctor: "then stop doing that." 
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 but i guess one needs to know a little about the bible, christianity and american history..... mt. st. helens didn't spew such crap. how do you manage, drieux, day in & day out, to keep it up?? so which are you advocating? that you know nothing about american history, or that you know nothing about the bible? is this a restoration of the "know nothing" party? go easy on him drieux. it is the right of every american to know nothing about anything. "all hands to the big sea of comedy! all hands to the big sea of comedy!" -last call of the wild of the humour lemmings "who said anything about panicking?" snapped authur. garrett johnson "this is still just culture shock. you wait till i've garrett@ingres.com settled into the situation and found my bearings. then i'll start panicking!" - douglas adams 
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 |>here is a press release from the united states information agency. |> digest of foreign media reaction from the united states information |>agency april 12 (1 of 3) |> to: national desk |> contact: anne chermak of the united states information agency, |> 202-619-6511 |> washington, april 13 -- following is part one |>of a digest of foreign media reaction from april 1-12, compiled |>by the united states information agency: |> terrorism and world insecurity |> in recent editorials, iran was universally recognized as |>te source of the double threat of state-sponsored terrorism |>and islamic extremism. but beyond this fear and condemnation, |>journalists found little common ground that would compel both |>north and south, and arab and non-arab nations to work together |>to combat the global threat of terrorism. for example, egyptian |>and algerian papers were in the forefront in charging u.s. complicity |>in the current instability in the middle east. those commentators |>asserted that the united states had promoted islamic fundamentalism |>during the afghanistan war and had further added to regional |>instability by alternately encouraging iraq and iran. the cads! the fact that this is precisely what the us was up to of course is not mentioned. it is a fact that regan and bush sold arms to iran, it is also a fact that they supported and armed iraq. still this is state dept propaganda so none too surprizing. |> india's papers weighed the pros and cons of helping the west to |>identify pakistan's role in promoting terrorism, noting on the one |>hand that doing so could "bring ruination to islamabad's kashmir |>cause" but, on the other, could also bring india's security apparatus |>uncomfortably close to the cia and the mossad. arab papers continued |>to portray iraq and libya as being unfairly treated by the un while |>israel remains unpunished for resolutions which it has violated. in the case of lybia there is the problem that the us only decided that gadffii ordered the bombing after it needed to make peace with damascus during the gulf war. one day the us is certain that its syria, the next lybia. for a strange reason the us will not provide evidence to lybian courts for extradition proceedings. faced with similar demands the usa would reject them as would any other country. |> concerning northern ireland, president clinton's message of |>consolation to the victims of the warrington bombing was seen in |>british tabloids as signalling a tougher stance by the american |>government against violence by the ira. the word is "terrorism". the problem is that after the behaviour of george bush the usa has an image abroad as doing precisely what it likes and is in its own interests then comming out with a dysney scripted sugary justification repeating a fitting combination of the words "freedom" "dignity" "democaracy" or of "terrorism" "dictatorship" etc as appropriate. the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran. the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack. hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move. first off they could recognise iraqu's responsibility in initiating the iran/iraq war. providing technical assistance to iran to get it's oil production back up to capacity would also be a smart move, at the moment iran is above it's opec ceiling. if they had extra capacity they would use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests. the iranian clerics would have an interest in seeking a raprochment simply because a permanent war footing is debilitating. they also need western technology. phill hallam-baker 
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 correct. jfk was quite disgusting in that way. the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens. today, we';d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour. i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing, breaking and entering, rigging national elections, starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands, and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did. not! garrett, you are a really pathetic liar. some of your charges are arguable, but most of them are obvious lies. i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole, rigged a national election, never mind elections, or used the powers of his office for personal gain. you can't because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred. along with normalized relations with the prc. "normalizing relations" with cambodia? you must be joking. we sponsored the overthrow of the cambodian government. after repeated failed attempts of course. your sad level of historical and political knowlege is probably best exemplified by the fact that you think prc stands for cambodia instead of red china. 
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 candidate clinton promised to tax the rich, and most folks thought that was a pretty nifty idea. then president clinton said he wanted families who make more than $100,000 to bear 70% of the new tax burden, and many were quick to complain that their six-figure income does not make them one of the well-to-do. it's particularly ironic (to me) that it's in those traditionally liberal enclaves of the bay area and academia where the wealthy are struggling so to fit themselves into the mantle of "just regular working-class folk". nobody will ever admit to being rich; everybody's middle class. so who are the rich? well, i'll throw out some stats from the 1990 census and let you be the judge... va negvpyr <mzimmersc5e1qk.fn9@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (michael zimmers) jevgrf: } in article <1qcdvbinn5ti@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> } >that would be about $55 to 65 thousand us, and that is what tenured } >professors can expect to make. for a phd with say 10 years experience, } >$65,000 is a lot less than what he could be making in industry. } oh? as a 12-year veteran of silicon valley, i've seen precious few } employment ads that call for phds. and $65k is hardly chump change; } it's well above the median *household* income for the state. bay area average household income is in the mid-$40,000 range. national average is $31,889. the bay area has nearly twice the national average of six-figure income households (9.1% vs 4.8%*). the cost-of-living here may be high, but i don't think it's twice the national average... } >in los angeles, modest home prices can be $500,000. a 1,500-square-foot tract house in a bay area working-class neighborhood goes for about $250,000. i doubt that the los angeles market is all that different. it would appear that this definition of "modest" is perhaps a bit immoderate... } so what? they're no cheaper for those who are gainfully employed. } >in california, $65,000 is not upper-middle-class. } it depends upon your definition; it's clearly above average. it is more than what two-thirds of california households make. seems to me that belonging to the upper one-third is not an unreasonable definition of "upper-middle-class". note that if that professor's spouse earns $35,000 they become one of clinton's "rich" families. here's a breakdown of national, california, and bay area household incomes: <$30k $30-50k $50-100k $100k+ us 49% 24% 23% 4% * the census bureau did some weird ca 41% 26% 26% 7% rounding here...more like 5% ba 34% 25% 31% 9% and to add a little prespective: a minimum wage earner working 40 hours/week makes $8,840/year. the poverty line for a family of four is $15,171. if they make up to twice that, the government considers them to be "working poor". say we decide to call this the "lower-middle-class". then how 'bout: $30-50k annual income is "middle-class". $50-100k is "upper-middle-class". $100k+ is "rich". $1,000k+ is "filthy-rich". and $10,000+ is "bill gates". make sense? ;^) there's nothing surer, the rich get rich and the poor get poorer, in the meantime, in between time, ain't we got fun. --raymond egan 
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 the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran. the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack. hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move. phill hallam-baker it is also widely stated (in non-mainstream sources) that the cia had a large part in the overthrow of the popular (and popularly-elected) left-leaning premier mossadegh in 1953. is this widely recognized outside the u.s.? (i have never seen it mentioned at all in mainstream u.s. media.) how about within iran? dave kohr cs graduate student univ. of illinois at urbana-champaign work: 3244 dcl, (217)333-6561 home: (217)359-9350 e-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu "one either has none or not enough." 
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 a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. welcome to the conservative judiciary. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed? shouldn't that be up to a jury? i think scalia's point was that you get one chance. if new information comes out later, tough. if the conviced want justice, they have to hope the governor is feeling charitable. there's a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial, dispite evidence of his inocents. and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm? shouldn't that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial? whatever happened to jurors having to be objective? it got swept away in the reagan revolution... russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect ------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1993 ex-twins' jack morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (world series mvp!) 
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 tes: just _try_ to justify the war on drugs, i _dare_ you! a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took 5 hits of acid is still having trouble "aiming" for the bowl when he takes a dump. don't as me how, i just have seen the results. boy, i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head. i'll answer you're sarcasm with more sarcasm: boy, it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head, given that example! (issue: your friend _got_ his drugs--legal or not legal, he'll continue to get them. issue #2: why should _i_, as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not "screwed up" have to pay for this idiot's problems? he's not doing anybody any harm except himself. the wod, on the other hand, is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood. tell me why i should sacrafice this to that!). steve thomas steveth@rossinc.com 
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 correct. jfk was quite disgusting in that way. the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens. today, we';d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour. i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing, breaking and entering, rigging national elections, starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands, and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did. not! garrett, you are a really pathetic liar. isn't name calling fun! some of your charges are arguable, but most of them are obvious lies. i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole, rigged a national election, never mind elections, or used the powers of his office for personal gain. what do you think happened at watergate? what do you think they broke into the building for? it wasn't to just look around. do i have to draw you a picture? you can't because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred. whatever... "who said anything about panicking?" snapped authur. garrett johnson "this is still just culture shock. you wait till i've garrett@ingres.com settled into the situation and found my bearings. then i'll start panicking!" - douglas adams 
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 |>>come to that under the original plan there wasn't meant to be anything |>>much for the federal government to do except keep the british out. |> that's also untrue, but at least we're wandering a little closer |>toward reality. that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough |>proof it was there for just a tad bit more. well yes and no. the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them. they certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position. |>>and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty |>>wide powers. unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock |>>set in. |> i wasn't aware the house of lords had "wide powers." i was under the |>impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons, and |>certainly didn't have almost equal their powers. (the senate is restricted |>only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue.) the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question. the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until 1914 and david llloyd george's budget. even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body. |> my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely |>no reason to believe the senate wasn't intended to make use of their |>law-making powers. in fact, grid-lock appears to have been designed |>into the system, with the senate being a more deliberative body to act |>as a check on the more-often elected house. the system is meant to be slow to react, the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow. |> on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be |>some sort of rubber-stamp for the house? you'll note that while the |>president's veto may be over-ridden, the house can't do anything about |>a "veto" by the senate. the presiden't veto was meant to be entirely separate. until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation. the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive. the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body, it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation. that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo, 60% of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction. 
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 a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed? shouldn't that be up to a jury? what kind of witnesses? if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident, or were otherwise directly involved (e.g., paramedics, emergency room doctors, etc.), then they should have been used at the first trial. you don't get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses. if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data, note that the loser can *always* find such witnesses. if this were grounds for a new trial, then the loser could *always* get a new trial, and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner (and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses). --tim smith 
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 wow !!!! did i discover a great bbs !! it's called sovereignty lies in the people bbs: 916-589-4620 14.4 k baud. free and confidential ! fictitious names ok ! subjects and files contained on the bbs: * find out how the government has been scamming us !!!! * state citizenship documents and issues. are you a california republic citizen or a u.s. federal citizen ? remember there were only state citizens before the 14th amendment!! one is subject to federal income tax, one isn't. did you volunteer to surrender your state citizenship when you got your social security number? which one are you? * tax laws and issues. beat the irs * traffic laws and issues. beat traffic tickets. can you answer this one: what law allows a police officer to arrest you without a warrant when he issues you a ticket? * religious truth issues. are all religions scams ???? are all christian religions of the great creator god ???? * trust documents and issues. the sysop told me that instructions to beat traffic tickets will be on the bbs shortly. beat traffic tickets without going to court!!! the bbs is great, spread the word !!!! also: how come i don't hear more people talking about the federal reserve bank? just ask yourself these questions: 1) why would anyone borrow money from themselves at interest? the federal government does * not * * not * the federal reserve bank is private. the american people are being ripped off royally. 100% of the income tax goes to pay on the federal debt to the federal reserve bankers. not one dime goes for services. services like the military and welfare come from excise taxes and the like. 2) why do we the american people stand for this????? ** check out the new bbs ** 
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 |>>come to that under the original plan there wasn't meant to be anything |>>much for the federal government to do except keep the british out. |> that's also untrue, but at least we're wandering a little closer |>toward reality. that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough |>proof it was there for just a tad bit more. well yes and no. the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them. there are a couple of ways to look at them. one is, "we want you to support this constitution, so we'll say anything that we think will appeal to you," or the more straightforward, "this is why we think what we've suggested in this constitution is a good idea." you clearly consider the former to be the primary situation. certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position. well, i know hamilton was a dyed in the wool monarchist, and probably the authoritarian extreme to jefferson's democratic impules. but what would you suggest as a means of determining their opinions on the government if we don't consider what they wrote about the and is writing in support of something automatically "propoganda" to the point we must assume it is untrue or that they are saying what they don't believe? |>>and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty |>>wide powers. unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock |>>set in. |> i wasn't aware the house of lords had "wide powers." i was under the |>impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons, and |>certainly didn't have almost equal their powers. (the senate is restricted |>only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue.) the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords, than we'd almost have to state that the house of representatives was also. (in fact, they both were, because the british government had much greater power than did the american system). |> my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely |>no reason to believe the senate wasn't intended to make use of their |>law-making powers. in fact, grid-lock appears to have been designed |>into the system, with the senate being a more deliberative body to act |>as a check on the more-often elected house. the system is meant to be slow to react, the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow. i disagree. the system is not too slow, it was simply designed to handle less than it has demanded that it handle. as somebody in washington put it (whose name i forget), "congress has become everybody's city council." congress is more than capable of quick action, and has more than enough power and time on its hands, if it confined itself to what its original jurisidiction was and allowed more local autonomy. it is not a case of the system of government they created failing, but that it is operating under a set of conditions they specifically wanted to avoid. namely, a concentration of power. it would seem then that the proper thing to do is not to reduce the power of either house in some attempt to grease the wheels. all you'll get then is a system which moves quicker to do stupid things. it would make more sense to make more decisions at a local level. |> on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be |>some sort of rubber-stamp for the house? you'll note that while the |>president's veto may be over-ridden, the house can't do anything about |>a "veto" by the senate. the presiden't veto was meant to be entirely separate. until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation. please explain to me how bush abused the veto in an "extraordinary" the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive. i fail to see where any restrictions, implied or otherwise, were placed on the veto. it could just as easily have been read as a means to put a check on democratically popular but unwise (in the executive's opinion) policies. there is no limit in the constitution to the president's veto power regarding what a bill is for. previous presidents have used the veto for any number of reasons, most usually having something to do with their agenda. i am really curious how you single bush out as *the* president who abused vetos. the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body, it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation. that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo, 60% of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction. why is it not a reasonable restriction? because 51 senators is the magic holy number upon which laws must be based? if 41 senators feel safe enough with their state constituencies to stand up and fillibuster isn't that *enough* to indicate there's a sufficient question as to whether a law is a good idea or not to re-evaluate it? why one earth *should* 51% be sufficient to enact a law which covers 250 million people in very, very diverse places and living in radically different conditions? why *shouldn't* a super-majority be required? any system in which the simple majority is given absolute power to ignore the minority then the minority *will* be ignored. i do not see this as a positive thing. and for all that i'm sure the republicans are looking for pork as much as the democrats, they've got some legitimate objections to the legislation in question. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 who wants to look through the bars at some reactionary liberal conspiracy- theory idiots and see how they rant and rave at the erosion of their populist support? this is very typical of the elitist liberal attitude that the people are incapable of thinking for themselves. this elitist attitude will be the eventual undoing of the arrogant liberal tide sweeping america, as the people begin to realize more and more that they are being treated like errant children and robbed of their freedoms by a bunch of utopian arrogent socialist jerks. in article 167077 in talk.politics.misc, new liberation news service lines: 164 /* written 8:33 pm apr 14, 1993 by nlns@igc.apc.org in igc:nlns.news */ /* ---------- "nlns packet 3.11 *** 4-14-93" ---------- */ fascism with a friendly face: does rush limbaugh remind you of daevid bornhuetter-machen, the madison edge "the main difference between adolf hitler and rush limbaugh is that hitler was original and showed initiative." --mort sahl on the tom snyder radio show, abc radio network, october 27, 1992. although i find myself often disagreeing with the populist rationale of mr. limbaugh, i find him entertaining and i often agree with his conclusions. the fact that he sends liberal reactionaries like these idiots through the roof makes him all the more entertaining. (nlns)--believe it or not, i was planning this comparative review of mein kampf and limbaugh's transcribed rant, the way things ought to be before sahl issued his comparative review. as usual, sahl's was independent and sharp as a scalpel. my effort can only dream of comparing favorably to mort's. at least it has a fairly popular orginating premise; everyone i'd mention the idea to thought it was either divinely inspired or at least past due for those reactions are based on parallels that should be obvious to the most peripheral observer of the acts of those false prophets. both are noted for their galvanizing oratorical skills, which they both used with passion to generate a political cult of massive numerical proportions (in fact, limbaugh claims to have an audience of just over 12 million, almost identical to the number of votes cast for hitler in the april 1932 german election). both used a myopic social perspective to build the cult, and enthusiastically amputated facts from the record to fabricate their ideological quilt. actually, i find limbaugh's oratory less than sizzling and his debating skills sometimes lacking, even though his conclusions are often correct. i would suggest that a bankrupt leftist ideology that hopes to use concentrated political power and a loaded gun to force everyone to do the "right" things (where "right" is defined by the elitist academics who lead the movement) is showing an acute case of "myopic social perspective", not to mention arrogance and utter stupidity. limbaugh is certainly far from perfect, but his opponents in the established body politic and the media are the ones arguing for federal control of virtually all aspects of the lives of the citizenry, and for the elimination of local control over affairs public. perhaps limbaugh has a following because the people are tired of being treated like errant children by a self-important group of arrogant controlling myopic people who have no understanding of how life operates outside of the "oughta-be's" inside their own hopelessly closed minds. the last point is glaringly documented by passages in the opening pages of both books. hitler's example is when, on page 5, he claims the german nationalist terrorist leo schlageter (he bombed part of a railway line between dusseldorf and duisburg, being caught in the act, in 1923) was "betrayed to france by a representative of his government" when there has never been any factual foundation for such a statement. in fact, the governments of both the reich and prussia, as well as the vatican, actively intervened to save him from execution, and almost ok, let us take your word for that and work with it. a nice specific limbaugh follows suit by making the hysterically sarcastic claim in his introduction that "in a school or during a commencement ceremony or many other public places... god is unconstitutional." of course, it's not god but the official imposition of particular concepts of god against an individual's will that's unconstitutional. but limbaugh is too gleeful in his talent for distortion to want you to know that. hmmm, "congress shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." liberal translation: "the federal government (as long as it is run by liberals) may force local school districts to include certain iconic content in christmas displays, while prohibiting others." i think limbaugh has you on this one. it seems to me that he is arguing for less imposition of the federal government into religion. nice job on the specificity of that one, too. [analysis of historical/modern communication media deleted] but, as mort sahl also observed on the radio the other night, some cloutmeister of the radical right wants limbaugh to be a focal point of their propoganda. (and remember, sahl is an al haig conservative these days.) mort might not know exactly who rush's equivalent of rodolf hess is (the book itself suggests ed mclaughlin, the former president of abc radio and now limbaugh's partner in efm media, the radio program's production company). but mort himself is a veteran of the talk show, having hosted them in new york, washington and los angeles. he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of major market media men. he knows that limbaugh could not have collected his audience had not the opportunity been placed on a silver platter and handed to him. limbaugh earns his money just as honestly as al capone did; it's almost worthy of a rico indictment. ah yes, it is a conspiracy of profound proportions. methinks that you may be a bit resentful of mr. limbaugh's success because you attribute it primarily to luck (how, after all, could anyone with profound differences of opinion from yourself have become successful without the operation of conspiracy or blind luck!) do you feel this same level of knee-jerk resentment against lottery winners, or do you congratulate them on their good fortune? on questions of social issues, there is an overabundance of material in the limbaugh book that seems to echo hitler's venom. for example: this should be great fun, since it is the liberal movement in america that is pushing the hardest for centralized fascist control of the people and business (government/business 'partnership' indeed), and mr. limbaugh is the populist nemesis of that movement. i have read mr. limbaugh's book, and although it was not the most literary piece i have read in recent memory it certainly did not contain "venom" at all, let alone "venom" comparable to an individual who callously murdered millions out of racism. on their own qualifications to control society hitler: "out of the host of sometimes millions of people, who individually more or less clearly and distinctly guess the truth, partly perhaps understand it, one man [author's emphasis] must step forward in order to form, with apodeictic force, out of the wavering world of imagination of the great masses, granite principles, and to take up the fight for their sole correctness, until out of the playing waves of a free world of thought a brazen rock of uniform combination of form and will arises" (page 577). a very serious tone in that oratory. limbaugh: "who needs the media when they've got me? ... the show is devoted exclusively to what i think ... [the phrase "with half my brain tied behind my back to make it even"] denotes the egress of mental aptitude i require to engage and demolish liberals and others who disagree with me ... it might take four or five years, but i'm convinced the media will slowly and reluctantly come around to my way of thinking, kicking and screaming all the way." (pages 266, 21, 299 and 273, respectively.) you neglect to mention that mr. limbaugh (have you ever listened to his show, btw?) continuously encourages his audience to think for themselves rather than blindly following any media icon, himself included. you yourself mention that he makes no bones about his show being strictly about his own opinions. he also adopts a rather satirical approach, and presumes his audience to be intelligent enough to distinguish satire from seriousness (and he says as much). this is in contrast to the average mass-media show, in which the audience is treated as society's intellectual lowest common denominator. i am sure that adolf hitler was a master of satire; i am sure he was just kidding when he said that the jews were the cause of germany's problems and needed to be exterminated. on religion as the basis of a nation hitler: "in this world human culture and civilization are inseperably bound up with the existence of the aryan. his dying-off or his decline would again lower upon this earth the dark veils of a time without culture ... he who dares to lay hand upon the highest image of the lord sins against the benevolent creator of this miracle and helps in the expulsion from paradise." (page 581.) this is not religion, it is clearly a perverse worship of race. since christ was a jew, it seems quite unlikely that hitler's characterization of the aryan as "the highest image of the lord" fits with christian doctrine. limbaugh: "america was founded as a judeo-christian country ... but our intellectual and political elites are often either hostile or ambivalent toward religion ... people for whom belief in god is at best a charming superstition have managed to ban prayer from the public schools for the last thirty years. is it only a coincidence that the quality of american education has declined ever since?" (pages 274-5.) private religious schools have a vastly better record of success than publicly funded schools. american history is indeed primarily judeo- christian. i suppose that mr. limbaugh pointing out facts is equivalent to adolf hitler worshiping the aryan race. i think you might be reaching just a wee bit here. on popular culture as a reason for social collapse hitler: "the fight against the poisoning of the soul has to set in ... one has only to look at the menus of our movie houses, vaudevilles and theatres; and one can hardly deny that this is not the right kind of food ... theatre, art, literature, movies, the press, billposters and window displays must be cleaned of the symptoms of a rotting world and put into the service of a moral idea of state and culture." (pages 346 and 348.) definite suggestion that the government should control the entertainment industry here. limbaugh: "today, hollywood is in trouble. the reason [is] that hollywood has forgotten who its audience is ... they make fun of people who believe in god. they ridicule the traditional family, heterosexuality and monagamy. they disparage american heroes." (page 254.) just a guess here, but i don't think that mr. limbaugh would advocate government control of hollywood. you should perhaps call his radio show to confirm this. i believe this is more a criticism of hollywood and the depraved moral values it espouses, not an advocation of government control of hollywood. 90's liberals, on the other hand, want to have complete government control of our school systems, so that the government can teach the people at an early age the "right" way to view religion and morality. i believe mr. limbaugh is against this, as his satirical use of the "young heads full of mush" hyperbole indicates. on the news meida hitler: "the activity of the so-called liberal press was the work of gravediggers for the german people and the german reich. one can pass by in silence the marxist papers of lies ... it's task is only to break the people's folkish and national spine, in order to make it ripe for the yoke of slavery of international capital and its masters, the jews." (page 331.) pretty strong conspiracy theory insinuated here, with an implicit plea for government power to be used to break up the conspiracy. limbaugh: "elements of the media have jumped on the bandwagon of leftist causes. the cynical journalist of the past has been replaced in many cases by an enthusiastic cheerleader for causes ... during the gulf war, cnn correspondent bernard shaw [said] cnn is a global network. we can't take sides. cant take sides? --- --- ---! ... if they don't realize that their freedom lies in the united states of america and that therefore they should defend this nation, they are hopelessly misguided and, may i suggest, flirting with megalomania." (pages 270 and 268.) indication here that "elements of the media" (since career is a self-selected categorization, perhaps an inferred 'larger percentage than represented in the populace at large') has a leftist bias. doesn't sound too unreasonable. no insinuation that cnn should not report in an objective fashion, only that for reporters to say that they do not have any personal bias in the situation is disingenuous to megalomaniacal. you may disagree, and it may well be exagerrated, but it is not an unreasonable opinion; and mr. limbaugh goes well out of his way to make sure that his audience knows that these are his opinions, unlike most other reporting that purports to achieve perfect objectivity but in actuality will in some degree or other, in a statistical sense, reflect the biases of the reporters. who is being disingenuous here, mr. shaw or mr. limbaugh? again, you should ask mr. limbaugh himself, but i expect that he would oppose government control of the media. to continue these comparative excerpts is certainly possible, but ultimately too depressing to take in one reading. it is indeed depressing to see such myopia and tiresome liberal arrogance. liberals love to play games with paradigms as a way of discrediting people who disagree with them. why don't you challenge conservative ideology on an intellectual level rather than engaging in ludicrous comparisons? perhaps the underpinnings of your ideology are intellectual only in that they exist in your mind, not the real world. after putting these books down, there is one undeniable fact that haunts me. in the 1920s, adolf hitler fed depressed and frightened germans the opiate of hatred of those around them; in turn, it allowed germans to hand their collective national power to the nazis. in the 1990s, rush limbaugh is doing the very same thing: distributing hatred to depressed and frightened americans; in turn, it is helping the american radical right to maintain its power base as the 12-year nightmare of the reagan-bush era comes to an end, hoping to rebuild it into their hopes for the fascist states of america. perhaps there are a few among the intellectually challenged who percieve rush limbaugh as a hate-monger, but in my experience he has been spreading laughter at the ludicrous self-importance of the left, not hatred. as to mr. bush, you may be correct about his fascist economic leanings. mr. reagan, on the other hand, did his best to reverse the fascist trend of government involvement in business. mr. clinton is increasing fascism in america through "business/government partnership" and increased levels of taxation. perhaps you should not have skipped your vocabulary classes in grade school. and if limbaugh is not as repellant a hitler, it is only because the radical right utilizes limbaugh as its own gateway opiate. one can only wonder what the ultimate drug is they plan to hook america on. hmmm. seems to me that limbaugh is not in any way comparable to hitler because he has not murdered six million jews and many, many others out of racism. i come from a mixed-race family, so i am quite well attuned to racism; i don't hear any coming from rush limbaugh. the only place i hear racism coming from these days and being taken seriously is from the liberal the liberal left is the movement i see trying to get america hooked on the opiates of socialized medicine, socialized transportation, socialized education, etc. the left already has america hopelessly addicted to that liberal drug, the social security chain letter. it is quite clear to me that while the hitler analogy does not really apply to either rush limbaugh or william jefferson clinton, if one of the two is closer than the other it is clearly the fascist clinton. the madison edge can be reached at po box 845, madison, wi 53701- 0845; (608) 255-4460. --- 30 --- this is the same address as "idiots anonymous", isn't it? matt freivald liborgalism: thinking is irrelevant. integrity is irrelevant. free speech is irrelevant. private property is irrelevant. personal responsibility is irrelevant. conservativism is futile. you will be assimilated. these are my opinions only and not those of my employer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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 any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow? the press? the white house staff? the most junior senator? the king of the motss/bi? just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out. probably, law enforcement people (park service police and d.c. cops), who will use aerial photographs and extrapolate based on the density of the crowd in small regions. these sort of techniques derive from army intelligence and cia methods of estimating troop strength, and tend to be methodologically skewed to always come up with inflated numbers, so as to justify bigger budgets. 
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 on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done. the problem is not the cost, it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done. i don't know where you live, but this is not the case nationawide. perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so, but in my area and most areas where i know people, immunizations cost $$$. sorry to shatter your stereotypes. in case you haven't noticed, clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program. "access" here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 in <1993apr15.045651.6892@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@midway.uchicago.edu sez: no, i'm saying any long term investor (the ones likely to have large capital gains) would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a) might disappear in any given year and b) be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains. to which my response is--so what? not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors. more than enough of them aren't for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised. i never said that *everyone* would find this advantageous. i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort "trends". even if brett's eventual-return figures were correct -- and they clearly weren't -- he'd still be wrong about the cause for the '86 blip because he fails to consider 2 basic factors: 1) as ted notes, not everyone is a long-term investor. one might find oneself, as i did in late 1986, anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings. given the choice between waiting a few weeks (and taking an extra tax hit) or selling in december with preferential tax treatment, only a fool would choose the former. 2) the fact that brett can now construct _post hoc_ calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point. there was plenty of _money_-style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late 1986 to "sell now and save on taxes." in case anyone missed it, there was no shortage of similar advice late last year (in the nytimes, e.g.), even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law (as in 1986), but merely on the *assumption* that clinton would raise tax rates (without capping cg taxes, contrary to the current proposal). it's nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest. like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys, though, this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world. moral: always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough - george ade mark eckenwiler eck@panix.com ...!cmcl2!panix!eck 
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 |>>and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty |>>wide powers. unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock |>>set in. |> i wasn't aware the house of lords had "wide powers." i was under the |>impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons, and |>certainly didn't have almost equal their powers. (the senate is restricted |>only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue.) the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question. the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until 1914 and david llloyd george's budget. even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body. just how much power does the house of lords have now? "who said anything about panicking?" snapped authur. garrett johnson "this is still just culture shock. you wait till i've garrett@ingres.com settled into the situation and found my bearings. then i'll start panicking!" - douglas adams 
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 not at all. you are apparently just another member of the religious left. not at all. i am not a member of the religious left, right, or even center. in fact i don't consider myself very religious at all [ this will probably result in flames now :) ]. in fact phil, you should leave religion out of it. it just clouds the issue. show me all these environmental "disasters". most of them aren't. and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man-made ones. how typical. so you think we shouldn't avoid these 'events' [ i shall refrain from the word disaster since it seems to upset you so much. :( ] when we can. in case you didn't realize it, the natural disasters [ oops, sorry events ] you are refering to we have no control over. man-made ones we do. i guess you missed the show on ch 20 earlier this week about the disaster [ oops there i go again... i meant to say event ] on the exxon valdez. just a natural every day occurance to spread oil on 300 miles of beach. i would like to know which natural event [ hey i remembered not to say disaster ] that would be similar to this. most of your so-called disasters (love canal, times beach, tmi) aren't disasters at all. hmm, i suppose you could be right. they are as natural as a tree, or a sunrise. not ! so look, if you want to worship trees (or owls or snails or whatever), fine, do so. but don't try to push the scaredness of your religious off onto me. so look, if you want to worship a oil slick ( or toxic waste dump or live in a house that has a cesspool in the front yard ), fine, you have my permission to do so [ yea right like you need my permission... ], it just won't be in the neighborhood where i live. but don't try to push your shortsighted tunnelvision views off on the rest of us. | russell hockins | there are people who believe that there is | | innovative interfaces, inc. | no such thing as an environmental disaster.| | | pretty weird... ain't it? | | my own opinions no one elses | packet : ka6foy @ ki6yk.#nocal.ca.na.usa | 
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 : as noted in another thread (limiting govt), the problem libertarians face : is insuring that the "limited government" they seek does not become the : tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda. it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams. you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas, and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen. while i can't offer such a proof, it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area, it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area. i rather suspect that it's the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool, and that it is such a tool in many as marxism "fails" to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to "wither away," libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human i suspect that this is because "improvement in the human condition" as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism, and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government. my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases. ian sutherland ian@eecs.nwu.edu sans peur 
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 this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves. according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed. (no, dr. norman, these were not your typical beer swilling red-necks.) personally i wouldn't have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event, went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game. what a bunch of crock. i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before. dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year. (i was listening on the radio). this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs. it's come to this, has it? defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle? who compared quayle to gore? mark said he had never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball had been booed before. i mentioned another incident. (and if the media had a liberal bias, i'm sure he would have heard of the quayle incident.) if i was to compare quayle to anyone, it most likely would be elmer fudd. i'd say that about says it all... back to the pit with ye, back to alt.fan. dan-quayle! begone! russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect ------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1993 ex-twins' jack morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (world series mvp!) 
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 perhaps 1%, but most likely not more than 2%. a new study (discrediting kinsey) says so. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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 # face it, clayton, he was not found guilty, and so what if gays sometimes # make it consensually with 16 year old boys. there are 16 year old gays, you # know. and as i recall, the case of the state rested on the testimony of one # "victim" who declined to testify, even under threat. i have had teens since # i was 40, and so have a lot of people. face it clayton, you're just a jerk! # -rsw # * richard steven walz rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (408) 429-1200 * # * 515 maple street #1 * without safe and free abortion women are * # * santa cruz, ca 95060 organ-surrogates to unwanted parasites.* * i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law -- and putting their address in the signature. please tell us more about this. were they 13? 14? would you like to make a statement for the district attorney? i had sex with a 13 year old boy, it was great, we did *everything*, well, a hell of a lot. it was fun anyway. oh, and before you turn purple with rage i was 12 at the time. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams. you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas, and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen. while i can't offer such a proof, it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area, it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area. i rather suspect that it's the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool, and that it is such a tool in many pardon me for interrupting, but why doesn't anyone ever bring up other possibilities besides more government, less government, or no government and stop there? it seems to me that the problems with society go much deeper than government. democracies seem to reflective of the majority of society, both the good and the bad. if you take away the government, you still have the structural flaws in society, except this time, with no restraints. yes? no? why doesn't anybody ever discuss communal society, like a kibbutz? i never studied it on depth, but from what i've heard, the kibbutz in isreal was very successful. it is also very close to what aristotle and socrates believed was the best. sorry to detract from the discussion. as marxism "fails" to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to "wither away," libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human i suspect that this is because "improvement in the human condition" as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism, and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government. my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases. but what good is change if there is no tracable improvement in the human condition? who would ever support the change if you tell them it won't improve their lives? i know that there are, and will be, libertarians who will jump in now and say that it will improve our lives. i can deal with that. all i'm saying is that improving the human condition must be the primary goal of any organization. ian sutherland ian@eecs.nwu.edu "who said anything about panicking?" snapped authur. garrett johnson "this is still just culture shock. you wait till i've garrett@ingres.com settled into the situation and found my bearings. then i'll start panicking!" - douglas adams 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 15, 1993 remarks by the president to law enforcement organizations the rose garden 2:52 p.m. edt the president: good afternoon. ladies and gentlemen, two months ago i presented a comprehensive plan to reduce our national deficit and to increase our investment in the american people, their jobs and their economic future. the federal budget plan passed congress in record time, and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in the country. then, the short-term jobs plan i presented to congress, which would create a half a million jobs in the next two years passed the house of representatives two weeks ago. it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate. all of these members of congress know it's time to get the economy moving again, to get job growth going again, to get a fast start on the investments we need to build a lasting prosperity. unfortunately, a minority of the members of the united states senate have used gridlock tactics to prevent their colleagues from working the will of the majority on the jobs bill. when congress returns, i ask every senator from every state and from both parties to remember what is at stake. the issue is not politics, it's people. sixteen million of them are looking for full-time jobs and can't find them. these men and women don't care about who's up or down in washington. they care about paying the rent and meeting the mortgage payment, about putting food on the table and buying shoes for their children, about regaining a sense of dignity that comes from doing a day's work and supporting their families and drawing a paycheck. they're asking those of us who have the privilege of serving to put aside politics and do something now to move our economy forward. i am prepared to do that. and i have been working with the senate to come up with an adjusted package that meets some of the concerns of those who have been blocking action on the jobs plan. i'm willing to compromise, so long as we keep the focus on jobs, keep the focus on growth and keep the focus on meeting unmet national needs. our opponents have been asking for a smaller package. today i ask them to join me in determining exactly what kind and what size package congress can approve that actually meets the needs of the american people. but even as we make those reductions and the package will be smaller, i believe we must address problems that are on the minds of millions of americans, and one in particular, and that is the need to toughen law enforcement in our society to deal with the dramatic rise in violent crime. so i will ask, even in this reduced package, for an additional $200 million in federal funding to help local communities to rehire police officers who have been laid off because of the fiscal problems caused by the national recession. together, with a matching effort by local governments, this could put as many as 10,000 police officers back on the job, and back on the beat in communities all across our nation. at a time when too many of our people live in fear of violent crime, when too many businesses have closed and too many people have lost their jobs because people are afraid to leave their homes, rehiring thousands of officers is one of the best investments america can make. and i ask both houses of congress to make that investment in our people's safety and in their piece of mind. i believe in the need for strong federal action to keep the economy going toward recovery and to create jobs. make no mistake about it: i will fight for these priorities as hard as i ever have. i will never forget that the people sent me here to fight for their jobs, their future and for fundamental change. i want to thank the police officers who are here today and tell you that not a single one of them knew before they came here that i had determined to ask for more money in this jobs bill to rehire police officers. they came here because they believe in the summer jobs portion of the package. and i want them to be free to talk about that. they came here not out of any law enforcement concern other than the fact that they wanted the kids in this country to have a chance to have jobs this summer, to have safer streets and a brighter and more peaceful future. i say what i say today not just because it's good for law enforcement but because it's good for the people who live in these communities. i have always supported community policing not only because it helps to prevent crime and to lower the crime rate, but because it cements better relationships between people in law enforcement and the people that they're hired to protect. it reduces the chances of abusive action by police officers and increases the chances of harmony and safe streets at the same time. these are the kinds of things that we are trying to do. i promised in my campaign that i'd do everything i could to put another 100,000 police officers on the street over the next four years. this makes a good downpayment on that. this keeps in mind the core of the jobs package. and this will help us to move forward. so i ask the people in the senate who have blocked the jobs bill, let's work together. i can accept a reduced package if you will increase your commitment to safe streets. i do not accept the fact that we should reduce our commitment to summer jobs or to building our infrastructure or to doing those other things that will create real and lasting prosperity for our people. i have done my part now to end the gridlock; i ask you to do yours. i want now to give the people who are here with me on the platform a chance to make some remarks and to be heard by the american people -- beginning with janet reno, the distinguished attorney general. q mr. president, can you tell us -- do you think that the jobs package could be put in further jeopardy by controversy over the suggestion of a vat tax at this point in the congressional the president: not at all. i think it should have -- they wouldn't have any relationship one to the other. first of all, i made absolutely no decision on that. you should know that there's a lot of support in the business community and the labor community -- people have asked us to consider that because of the enormous burden of the present system on many of our major employers, particularly many of those that we depend upon to generate jobs and to carry the strength of this economy. but i have made absolutely no decision that would even approach that on that or any other kind of general q do you personally believe that the american public is ready to pay for -- to have another tax to pay for health care? i mean, apart from what business and labor leaders have said -- the president: i'm not going to speculate on that. i will say this: the real issue is how quickly we can recycle the benefits of all the savings to cover the cost. i mean, that is -- everyone knows that if you do what we're proposing to do, if you streamline the insurance system, if you fix the system so that there's no longer an enormous economic incentive to over-utilize or over-provide certain services, if you provide primary and preventive care in places where it isn't now, every single analysis shows absolutely massive savings to the health care system. the real question is whether you can transfer those savings to cover those who have no coverage now or those who have virtually no coverage so that you provide people the security. i have no idea. the polls say that, but i don't know. all i know is the polls that i see in the press that many of you have commissioned, they say overwhelmingly the american people want the security of an affordable health care system. but i don't think that has anything to do with this stimulus, and it certainly shouldn't have. people want a job first and foremost. they want that more than anything else. q now that you've announced your willingness to compromise on the stimulus package, can you tell us what parts of your package you consider vital and uncompromisable? i assume summer jobs is one. the president: i want the summer jobs; i want the highway program and i want the police program. i still intend -- let me say this: i still intend to fully and aggressively push the crime bill, which did not pass the congress last year. this is a supplement to that, not a substitute for it in any way. but i think we need to do that. i think we need the ryan white funds because of the enormous health care burdens to the communities that are inordinately and disproportionately affected by the problems of caring for people with aids. and there are several other things that i think should be done. we have to do the agriculture department meat inspectors; the safety of the public depends on that. there are a number of other things that i don't -- i don't think any of it should be cut, but i have given senator mitchell and senator byrd -- i talked to them. and senator dole called me yesterday to discuss this, and i told him that i would call him back. i called him back last night in new hampshire and we discussed this. and i basically asked them to talk today, and said that i would not make any statements about any specifics until at least they had a chance to talk to see whether or not they could reach some accord. so i don't want to be any more specific than i have been already, and let's see if they can talk it out. q when you talked to senator dole and senator mitchell did you tell them about your -- increase also, that $200 million, that you want that as part of the package? the president: i did -- i told senator -- i left word for senator mitchell last night about it. when i talked to senator dole -- i don't remember for sure -- i do not believe i mentioned it. but i did tell him that i was prepared to reduce the package and i wanted to break the gridlock, and i told him that i was working on a reformulation of it so that -- in the hope that it would become even more focused on jobs and the kinds of issues that i thought the american people wanted us to address. and this is certainly consistent with that. thank you. end3:12 p.m. edt 
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 the question, i think, then becomes: do we, the general public, need the train? i certainly do not, nor will i ever, need this train in lubbock, texas. with the inexpensive air travel provided between dallas and houston, i don't think people in dallas or houston need it either. i totally agree. really, the only people this is going to benefit, are those who live in the cities where the train stops. who wants to drive to the train station from x (lubbock for example)? it's probably farther to drive to the train station than it is to the nearest national airport. i really can't see spending 5.7 billion on a system that only three cities will benefit from. 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 15, 1993 statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday, april 17 to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania, where it would create as many as 3,818 full time jobs and up to 21,240 summer jobs. he will make a public address at pittsburgh international airport at 9:30 am. the president will leave washington early saturday morning and return that afternoon. a white house press charter will depart andrews air force base at 7:30. filing facilities will be available in pittsburgh. 
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 rail in texas. being from california, i have come to the conclusion that one has two choices for preventing economic strangulation through traffic: high speed rail or growth limits. growth limits? how will hsr help with the traffic congestion? from what i understand, the rail will not stop in places like waco, or bryan, or lots of intermediate places in between. even though i live in austin, i don't see myself using the train except on rare occasions. probably twice a year. and at $65 dollars a ticket i could probably drive for cheaper also. (even if the price of gas went up) 
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 top ten signs that it's the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue 10. men in uniform are persona non grata in the home of our commander in 9. algore's enviro-mentalism will make the clean air act look like an industrial policy. 8. higher taxes are once again the prescription for all that ails america. 7. tax dodging is unpatriotic; draft dodging is a symbol of pride. 6. beaded curtains hang from the oval office windows. 5. socialism may be dead in the ex-soviet union but we are told to prepare for the nationalization of our health care resources. (these people must be inhaling something.) 4. not quite free love but eating flowers is considered healthy. 3. the feminazis have a president in the white house whether the rest of us realize it or not. 2. slick may be the first draft dodger to send american troops into 1. slick may be unpopular with middle-class americans, but he's a big hit on campus with the professorial class. copyright (c) edward a. ipser, jr., 1993 here's my own top ten response to mr. ipser's list 10. it's about time we have a president that might actually stand up to the military. our men and women in uniform must learn that the world does not revolve around them, and that one of the things they're out there defending is our right to be critical of them, even denounce them. 9. let me explain something to you. environmental policy and industrial policy must go hand in hand. our nation, and indeed, our planet cannot afford to continue ignoring this as was done over the last twelve years. our industrial/environmental position has been downright shameful! we must have active government support of the key industries such as, telecommunications, microelectronics, medical, biotech, and environmental tech. meanwhile weed out old, inneficient, high-polution, industries that are better left to other nations. this will make us richer, help produce new jobs, and help the environment. to give credit where credit is due, i heard a lot of this in a speech by senator john kerry (d-ma) tonite. in addition, it's time we get really, really serious about issues like overpopulation, globabl warming, and ozone depletion. the planet on which we live should be our utmost priority! 8. it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work, to provide the services that people need, and to help solve the problems that need to be solved. granted, some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money, and should be. but some things are going to cost more money and i'm sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time. you want to live in my country, you pay your fair share! 7. i can't believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes. if you're willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn't affect us and at worst really should be our friend, then you have no right to tell me you shouldn't pay taxes! 6. hey, i think the beaded curtains add a lovely 60's-esque touch! 5. look, canada, europe, and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens (and, yes, basic health is a human right which people are entitled to). if these nations aren't capitalist enough for you, then i guess we've found something better than capitalism! there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system, and if something, be it socialism or anything else, works better, then i say let capitalism die. 4. make love, not war! 3. contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time. to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong, and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse. women certainly have as much to offer this world as men, and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills. i look forward to it. 2. see number 10. 1. hey man, acadamia rules!! -amar chaudhary peace, land, at matzoh! "ac in dc in 2008!" none of the opinions here necessary reflect the opinions of yale university or anyone or anything associated with it, except for me, of course :) please post reponses or send them to chaudhary-amar@cs.yale.edu 
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 es: .c on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done. the problem is not the cost, it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done. in case you haven't noticed, clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program. "access" here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps. excuse me for sticking my nose in, but any parent/parents who do not allready immunize their children (especially if it is already free), don't deserve one frigging dime of tax money for health care for themselves, or public health care service. (i know the immunization program and the coming national health care issue are slightly seperate issues, but anybody who wouldn't help their kids, don't deserve my tax help). 
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 #but what came out, #in much lower profile reporting, was that the "victim" was a #prostitute, and the man had not paid her -- hence the false #accusation. there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute, the defense merely alledged that she was. even clayton knows the difference. err, perhaps clayton doesn't know the difference. evidence given for her prostitute status, besides the admittedly questionable claim of the man on trial included: 1. prior employment in a number of massage parlors, with women who claimed that she worked as a prostitute; 2. walking around a truck stop at 4:00 am wearing a lace miniskirt, a halter top, and no underwear of any sort; 3. not having a purse or other i.d. with her. not enough to convict her, but enough to create reasonable doubt whether a rape actually took place, or theft of services. are you just ignorant, or lying again? #the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the #marines were engaged in self-defense. no, the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof. a small clipping from clarinews, under fair use guidelines: # new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris-goodson ruled in #the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the #marines acted to cause injury. the accounts on the evening news indicated that they claimed self- defense, and the judge agreed that they were so operating. -greg hennessy, university of virginia clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # # # and now those "other options" don't exist. we probably agree on this # # # more than you think--welfare was invented to solve a problem of the # # # 30's, but the poverty is now so much worse, and our economic infra- # # # structure has been so eroded, that it just can't keep up any more. # # you mean, since your philosophy took over, the economy has almost # # collapsed. # excuse me, *my* philosophy? you don't have any idea what *my* philosophy # is. the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of # prevailing economic philosophies. but then, economics is hardly a science. in my lifetime, your philosophy -- socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state -- has been in ascendancy. # no, i mean exactly what i wrote--the welfare system of the new deal is # wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs. absolutely. so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism. # # # # # (2) whether or not the fathers work # # # # # is not germane to single mothers. # # # # very true. but the promotion of casual sexuality is something that # # # # plays a part in the single mother problem. # # # i'll buy that--and there's lots of reasons for it, extremely far down on # # # the list being the flash-in-the-pan media attention a bunch of middle- # # # class dropouts got for their philosophy and experimentation. # # flash-in-the-pan? no, your subculture has utterly dominated the # # tv and movie industries for two decades now. # *my* subculture? my, we're getting personal. the only subculture i see # dominating the tv and movie industries is *money*. if you'll buy it, # they'll sell it. and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have # shown, they're *very* sensitive about what sells. whatever happened to # personal responsibility, anyway? or am i personally responsible for # the decline in that, too? to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves, yes. # # # # come on. you and i both know that the major problem of this society # # # # today isn't a lack of employment, it's a lack of people willing to work. # # # huh??? tell that to the single mother i know who was laid off from # # # her $10/hour job at a hospital and now works 2 full-time minimum- # # # wage jobs to barely be able to support herself and her kid. *barely.* # # # hey, she's too proud to go on public assistance, but the only jobs # # # she can find are menial and with no benefits. and no career path # # # either--they find excuses to lay people off and hire new ones rather # # # than give raises and perks. and why not? it's a lot cheaper. # # oddly enough, all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage # # to find employment almost immediately. maybe she needs to move to a # # cheaper part of the country, where jobs are plentiful, and the cost # # of living is lower. # the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets--squalor city. # tell me about all these places where it's cheap to live and jobs are # abundant--i'll pass them on. sonoma county. # you live in a strange and wondrous place, sir. inexpensive housing, not exactly cheap, but not los angeles, either. # lots of employment, and utterly surrounded by socialists. well, i suppose # that's the sort of environment that would attract socialists, or at least # not dissuade them. no, it's that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists -- all the spoiled rich kids, feeling guilty about their wealth. but not guilty enough to give it away -- they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away. # # # i see a lot of people willing--nay, eager--to work. what i don't see # # # is a system that makes it at all feasible to do so. it's not just # # # welfare, which nobody enjoys, but there just aren't the jobs any more. # # # when the us was expanding industrial capacity there was always a mill # # # to go work in--skills to learn, a future. now there's only mcdonalds. # # odd. not the experience of anyone i know. just the opposite. # in california??? # # # mr. cramer, i was there: hippiedom was a very low-budget operation. # # # our drugs were cheap. # # the money i was referring to was aid to families with druggie # # cohabitators (afdc). # well, i doubt that much of this goes to drugs--there isn't much left after # buying food, and there is very little in the first place. sure, you read # about such cases now and then, but that's what makes them news. show me # your statistics about afdc abuse. i can tell you that relatives i have known, the drugs came first, the food was secondary. # ken perlow ***** ***** clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 bk: # ##so tell me---what's immoral about homosexuality? # cc: # #the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it. # hmmm. # i've told you more than once that i've been monogamous for almost 4 years # now, and that i really don't get into fetishes. then you are nearly the only homosexual who is. i don't believe you. you've changed your story before. # yet you maintain my homosexual activity is still immoral. # care to elaborate? # for that matter, explain why fetishes are immoral? # kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (hot young star) astronomy dept, boston university, the fact that your fetish is more important than who you are making love to. (actually, in your case, "having sex with.") clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough examination of american men's sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 |>>} secondly, any canadian who has worked and participates in the |>>} insurance (it's a negative option, you have to explicitly decline |>>} it) knows that the premium is deducted separately ... |>>yes, and some americans actually have a problem with having more |>>of their money taken from them to pay for others' health care... |>but note again, the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true. i am required to have insurance by law. the method of collection effectively makes it a tax. |>>the selfish bastards that they are. unfortunately, that number has |>>diminished recently, but once president pinocchio gets through |>>with us, i hope for a reversal of trend. well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards. pity they don't look at what 12 years of the regan/bush "selfish bastard" ecconomy has done to the country. elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselve thats why they are selfish bastards. bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle this country is hardly ruined. in fact, it is booming compared to after the 1980 election. this whole "usa has gone to hell and reagan/bush caused it", is not only lame, pathetic, and old....... it's wrong. under reagan/bush the economy grew by 1.1 trillion dollars. this is more than the entire economy of germany, a "kind, gentle" country, in many peoples' books. what a joke. 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 15, 1993 american university president joseph duffey named to head usia, mica to chair board for international broadcasting washington, d.c. - president clinton today announced his intention to nominate american university president and former state department assistant secretary joseph duffey to be director of the united states information agency. the president also designated daniel mica chairman of the board for international "joe duffey's expertise in the fields of education, communications and foreign affairs is vast and will serve him well as he takes the helm at usia and works to promote the ideals of democracy and freedom abroad," the president said. president of american university in washington, d.c. since 1991, duffey previously served nine years as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst. in 1977 he served as assistant secretary of state, education and cultural affairs in the state department. duffey served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities under both presidents carter and reagan. in 1978 and 1980, duffey served as a united states delegate to the general conference of the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization. in 1991, duffey served as joint head of the u.s. delegation observing national elections in usia, which celebrates its 40th anniversary this year, is an independent foreign affairs agency within the executive branch that explains and supports u.s. foreign policy and national security interests abroad through a wide range of information programs. among the agency's programs are the fulbright academic program, voice of america, the worldnet satellite television system and a network of overseas libraries and cultural centers. the agency has more than 210 posts in more than 140 countries. (more) press release pg. 2 mica becomes chairman of the board for international broadcasting after serving as a member of the board since 1991. "dan mica has done an excellent job on the board of international broadcasting and i expect he will continue as chairman to promote the cause of democracy abroad," the president biographical sketches of the appointees follow: joseph duffey has served as president of american university since 1991. prior to his tenure at american, duffey served as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst (1982 - 91) and as a guest scholar at the brookings institution (1982). he served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities from 1977 - 82 and as assistant secretary of state, education and cultural affairs with the department of state in 1977. duffey holds 14 honorary degrees from american colleges and universities. in 1980 he was named commander of the order of the crown by the king of belgium and he has been a member of the council of foreign relations since 1979. duffey received a ba from marshall university in 1954, a bd from the andover newton theological school in 1958, a stm from yale university in 1963 and a ph.d. from the harvard seminary foundation in 1969. duffey is a member of the national business- higher education forum and a founder and co-chairman of the western massachusetts economic development conference. duffey is married to anne wexler and has four sons. daniel mica is a former u.s. representative from the 14th district of florida and has served on the board of international broadcasting since 1991. during his tenure in congress from 1979 - 89 he served on the house committee on foreign relations and was appointed by president reagan as the congressional representative to the united nations. -30-30-30- 
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 51 arrested for defying judge's order at abortion protest rally the miami herald, april 11, 1993 melbourne, florida -- [...] circuit judge robert mcgregor's order prohibits anti-abortion pickets within 36 feet of the property line of aware woman center for choice. even across the street, they may not display pictures of dead fetuses or sing or chant loud enough to be heard by patients inside the clinic. the protesters say the ruling all but wiped out the first amendment to the constitution. ``this is our sidewalk,'' said joe carroll, 33, a landscaper who marched with his children, mary grace, 8, and john, 7. ``i am not a rescuer. i am not a trespasser. it's just that this is my sidewalk. i am not really protesting abortion. we are protesting denial of our rights of assembly, religion, speech. this judge is trashing the constitution.'' the children's grandmother led them away, sobbing, as carroll and his father were arrested. outside the clinic, eleanor smeal, president of the washington, d.c.-based feminist majority foundation, called for the florida legislature and congress to pass laws as tough as the judge's order, which covers only brevard and seminole counties. ``this cannot go on,'' she said. ``this is not freedom of speech, this is total psychological warfare with violence. it is ridiculous to have to ask clinics to go court-by-court . . . to get protection.'' 
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 the following was posted and no doubt retyped by yigal ahrens and considering the importance of the issue and the almost total blackout except in california, i am reposting to other appropriates groups. from la times, friday, april 9, 1993. p. a1. evidence of adl spy operation seized by police by richard c. paddock, times staff writer san francisco -- police on thursday served search warrants on the anti-defamation league here and in los angeles, seizing evidence of a nationwide intelligence network accused of keeping files on more than 950 political groups, newspapers and labor unions and as many as 12,000 people. describing the spy operation in great detail, san francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling how operatives of the anti-defamation league searched through trash and infiltrated organizations to gather intelligence on arab-american, right-wing and what they called "pinko" organizations. representatives of the anti-defamation league, a well-known organization in the u.s. jewish community dedicated to fighting anti-semitism, declined detailed comment thursday but denied breaking any laws. police allege that the organization maintains undercover operatives to gather political intelligence in at least seven cities, including los angeles and san francisco. groups that were the focus of the spy operation span the political spectrum, including such groups as the ku klux klan, the white aryan resistance, operation rescue, greenpeace, the national assn. for the advancement of colored people, the united farm workers and the jewish defense league. also on the list were mills college, the board of directors of san francisco public television station kqed and the san francisco bay guardian newspaper. people who were subjects of the spy operation included former republican rep. pete mccloskey, jailed political extremist lyndon h. larouche and los angeles times foreign correspondent scott kraft, who is based in south africa. authorities said much of the material collected by the groups was confidential information obtained illegally from law enforcement agencies. they also alleged that data on some individuals and organizations was sold separately to the south african government. in addition to allegations of obtaining confidential information from police, the anti-defamation league could face a total of 48 felony counts for not properly reporting the employment of its chief west coast spy, roy bullock, according to the affidavit filed to justify the search warrant. the anti-defamation league disguised payments to bullock for more than 25 years by funneling $550 a week to beverly hills attorney bruce i. hochman, who then paid bullock, according to the documents released in san francisco. hochman, a former president of the jewish federation council of greater los angeles and one of the state's leading tax attorneys, will be out of the city until late next week and could not be reached for comment, his office said. until 1990, hochman, a former u.s. prosecutor, also was a member of a panel appointed by then-sen. pete wilson to secretly make initial recommendations on new federal judges in california. hochman is a former regional president of the anti-defamation league. the league, which initially cooperated with police, has denied repeatedly that its intelligence-gathering operation broke any laws. league officials will not confirm or deny whether bullock was an employee and have said they simply traded information with police departments about people who might be involved in hate crimes. but in an affidavit filed to obtain warrants for thursday's searches, san francisco police alleged that "adl employees were apparently less than truthful" in providing information during an earlier search conducted without a warrant. david lehrer, executive director of the los angeles adl office, said the organization has not violated the law. "there is nothing nefarious about how we operate or what we have done," he said. "our record speaks for itself." the police affidavit contends that lehrer had sole control of a secret fund used to pay for "fact-finding operations." lehrer, according to the documents, signed checks from the account under the name l. an adl official said the account was used to pay for subscriptions to a wide variety of extremist publications that might balk at sending them directly to the anti-defamation league. bullock, 58, who has been collecting intelligence for the adl for nearly 40 years, defended his efforts during a lengthy interview with san francisco police. he said that he gathered names from many sources and entered them into his computer under headings such as "skins" and "pinkos," but that did not necessarily mean that they were under surveillance. "i might never see or call up on 99% of them again," bullock said. "and it doesn't mean anything that they're in the files. it's not a threat to anyone's civil rights that a name appears in my files under, say, 'pinko.'" in recent years, bullock worked closely with san francisco police officer tom gerard, who fled to the phillippines last fall after he was questioned by the fbi in the case. a former cia employee, gerard supplied bullock with criminal records and department of motor vehicles information such as home addresses, vehicle registration, physical characteristics and drivers license using files gathered for the anti-defamation league, gerard and bullock also provided information to the south african government, receiving $16,000 over four years, the documents show. the file on times staff writer kraft, which was apparently sold to the south african government, provides some insight into the hit-and-miss nature of the spy operation. the file notes that kraft's articles "appear frequently in the times and are well researched and written," but little else about the file is accurate. the brief entry confuses the times' kraft with another scott kraft and provides the south african government with the wrong kraft's physical description, photograph and other personal nevertheless, the documents provide illuminating details of how bullock for decades infiltrated all manner of organizations, from skinheads to left-wing radicals, searching regularly through the trash of target groups. using anti-defamation league funds, he also ran his own paid informants under code names such as "scott" and "scumbag." he worked closely with police officers up and down the coast, exchanged information with the fbi and worked with federal agencies, including the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. it was bullock's work as a paid informant for the fbi -- while spying on behalf of the anti-defamation league and the south african government -- that proved his undoing. the fbi learned that he was an agent of a foreign government and began investigating, leading to the probe of the anti-defamation league's intelligence network. the anti-defamation league employed undercover operatives to gather information in los angeles, san francisco, new york, washington, chicago, st. louis and atlanta, according to the affidavit and investigators. joining san francisco police in searching league offices and a los angeles bank were investigators from the office of san francisco dist. atty. arlo smith and the state franchise tax board. the los angeles police department, which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation, was informed of the searches in los angeles but not invited to participate. investigators suspect that some confidential information in the anti-defamation league files may have come from los angeles police officers. from los angeles times, saturday, april 10, 1993. p. a23. adl vows to cooperate with spy investigation by richard c. paddock, times staff writer. san francisco -- the anti-defamation league defended its record as a civil rights group friday and said it will cooperate with authorities who are investigating whether the organization collected confidential police information on citizens and groups. but san francisco dist. atty. arlo smith said that anti-defamation league employees involved in intelligence gathering could face many felony counts of receiving confidential files, eavesdropping, tax violations and conspiracy. police have accused the anti-defamation league of not being truthful about its spying operations, which collected information on more than 12,000 individuals and 950 political groups across the political hundreds of pages of documents released by prosecutors thursday show that the adl maintained a nationwide intelligence network and kept files on political figures. even so, smith suggested that if the anti-defamation league shut down its spy operation, prosecutors would take that into account when deciding what charges to file. in a statement released in washington, national director abraham h. foxman described the adl as "a jewish defense agency which has fought to protect all minorities from bigotry and discrimination for 80 years." foxman said the organization is regarded as a credible source on extremist groups and has a tradition of routinely providing information to police, journalists, academics, government officials and the public. it has never been the policy of the adl to obtain information illegally, he said. "like other journalists, in order to protect the confidentiality and physical safety of its sources, adl will not comment on the nature or identity of any source of information," foxman said. the anti-defamation league refused to acknowledge that one of its longtime employees, roy bullock, was anything more than "a private individual who is alleged to be an adl 'informant.'" among the documents released by prosecutors were detailed statements showing how the adl funneled weekly payments to bullock through beverly hills attorney bruce i. hochman. "roy would penetrate organizations and needed this arrangement to be distanced from adl," hochman told a san francisco police investigator. hochman could not be reached friday at his home or office for comment. despite the anti-defamation league's assertion that it will cooperate with authorities, san francisco police said the group did not turn over all pertinent documents during a voluntary search of the group's offices in los angeles and san francisco last fall. a second round of searches thursday, this time with search warrants, produced a vast quantity of records, primarily dealing with financial transactions, smith said. further searches may be necessary and it will be at least a month before any charges are filed, he said. "the investigation, of course, will go wherever the facts lead us," the district attorney said. yigal arens usc/isi tv made me do it! arens@isi.edu 
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 the article that follows was taken from the wednesday, april 14, 1993 issue of usa today ("drug use up at younger age" by mike snider, p. 1a). drug use is on the rise among kids as young as eighth graders - usually 13 - and they're using more lsd and inhalants like glue and air fresheners, says a new survey. the annual national high school senior survey on drug abuse finds "statistically significant increases" in eighth-graders' use of many drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, crack, lsd and inhalants. "we may be in danger of losing some ... hard-won ground (in reducing drug use) as a new, more naive generation of youngsters enters adolescence," says lloyd johnston, university of michigan, chief researcher on the study sponsored by the department of health and human services. but drug use among high school seniors is continuing a decade-long the study of 50,000 students shows the percentage who tried the following in the 30 days before they were polled: * 8th-graders - alcohol 26%; cigarettes 16%; marijuana 4%; cocaine 0.7%. * 10th-graders - alcohol 40%; cigarettes 22%; marijuana 8%; cocaine 0.7%. * 12th-graders - alcohol 51%; cigarettes 28%; marijuana 12%; cocaine 1.3%. among 12th-graders, use of marijuana, cocaine and inhalants declined over the year before. not so with lsd. * 2% of eighth-graders have tried lsd in the last year, up 24% over 1991. * use of lsd among seniors is at its highest point since 1982; 6% tried it in the last year. reducing drug use among students "requires a different kind of strategy" that health secretary donna shalala says will be part of an overall illness prevention plan. the survey shows drugs are easier to get and fewer eighth-graders disapprove of them. "it's scary," shalala says. "dealers are focusing on younger, more vulnerable kids." scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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 the article that follows was taken from the wednesday, april 14, 1993 issue of usa today ("drug use up among u.s. eighth-graders" by mike snider, p. 6d). a new national survey says drugs are easier to get, more teens are using them and fewer deem drug use as risky. for the last two years, government officials have trumpeted results from the national high school survey as signs that the drug war is being won. but this year, officials are retreating - drug use by eighth-graders has risen, according to the survey of 50,000 students possible reason for the increase: more experimentation. why? if drug use dropped during the '80s, eventually some students will have fewer "drug-using contemporaries" who act as examples of substance abuse's drawbacks, says social psychologist lloyd johnston, one of the survey authors. each new wave of youths "must be given the knowledge, skills and motivation to resist using these drugs," johnston says. this type of resurgence "is possible," says eileen shiff, author of "experts advise parents" (delta, $14.95). but that's not the issue, she says. the prevalence of alcohol and drugs among teens today could result in more alcoholic adults decades from now. aggravating the problem: baby boomer parents - who experimented with drugs and alcohol as teens - trying to be friends, not parents, to their children. "i've even seen parents serving kegs of beer" to their underage kids and friends, shiff says. for a recent graduation, shiff and other parents organized an all-night, "lock-in" party where no booze or drugs were allowed. "we need to fulfill that parental role, otherwise the peer group takes over," she says. officials may "talk about the war on drugs, but they really haven't done anything that i've seen," says suzanne linkous, scottsdale, ariz., 16, a volunteer who talks with teens about drugs, dating and other issues on a peer counseling and suicide hot line. linkous, a member of usa today's teen panel, says "there's always going to be experimentation" with drugs. a real war on drugs could be waged "education-wise," she says. but "some don't want to give kids the facts. they think it will give them ideas; it's the same with birth control. i think you should give the kids the information or have it accessible" through classes, pamphlets and speakers, she says. education efforts need to start as soon as kids get in school - in kindergarten, says dallas owens, 17, teen panelist from miami shores, fla. "i remember in kindergarten, i used to see (drugs). i think kids in the 10th and 12th grades have already made up their minds (about using drugs)," he says. scare tactics in public service announcements aren't working; only one commercial has gotten it right, he says. the commercial opens with two "good-looking girls" in the restroom talking about having no prom date. then they take a hit off a joint. "that hits home because it's not attractive," he says. "you can't be doing drugs if you want somebody to like you." adolescents' choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month: estimated, per 100 students 1991 1992 pct. chg. alcohol 25.1 26.1 +4% cigarettes 14.3 15.5 +8% marijuana 3.2 3.7 +16% amphetamines 2.6 3.3 +27% lsd 0.6 0.9 +50% cocaine 0.5 0.7 +40% crack 0.3 0.5 +67% source: university of michigan institute for social research, 1993 report scott kennedy, brewer and patriot before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me 
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 in the world of the future, bill clinton will appoint canadians to govern all american institutions (starting with the american health care system). we will be benevolent canadian dictators. with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new ``free'' social programs, i've really begun to suspect that the canadians, long resentful of their place in the american shadow, brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some time between 1966 and 1968, tutored him in the ways of canadian socialism, awarded him with smokeless marijuana cigarettes when he got the correct answers, then returned him to the states (under the control of the domineering wife assigned to his case) to attain high public office and destroy the evil individualistic and free market forces in america, thus shaping america in the canadian image. and not only that, made a second clone from the same tissue sample after that of said domineering wife, to run at the helm of the more-pro-business party under guise of more free trade ... and she did inhale, many times, to boot ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 : the selective service registration should be abolished. to start with, the : draft is immoral. whether you agree with that or not, we don't have one now, : and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior : with a volunteer army than with draftees. finally, the government has us : on many lists in many computers (the irs, social security admistration and : motor vehicle registries to name a few) and it can find us if it needs to. : maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time. : let's axe this whole department, and reduce the deficit a little bit. let me say this about that, as a retired navy officer; i agree. cut it. but let's not stop there. eliminate the c-17 transport. overwight, overdue, overbudget, it was supposed to carry tanks. new tanks are now too big for the airplane. scrap the seawolf ssn-21 nuclear submarine. the breakup of the ussr has left us with a number of sticky military problems, but none of them will require "god's gift to submarines". ground the b-2 stealth bomber. i'm sure it's a great airplane that will do everything its designers said, but at half-a-gigabuck a copy, we can't afford for even one to crash. and airplanes do crash. elmo zumwalt said it best 20+ years ago; "high/low". a mix of a few extremely capable weapons systems and a lot of cheaper, moderate-capability systems. ken mitchell | the powers not delegated to the united states by the kmitchel@netcom.com| constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are citrus heights, ca | reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. 
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 yeah, yeah, yeah. anyway, i was under the impression that the marines in question invited clinton down for the same treatment. while a bar fight is a bar fight, threatening the commander in chief seems a rather unprofessional thing for a professional soldier to do... also, it appears that two of the three marines have some sort of charges pending against them from another fight they were in a week before. frank r. chloupek chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu department of physics -- *the* ohio state university (not just any ohio state university) "there is only one hard-and-fast rule about the place to have a party: somebody else's place." --p.j. o'rourke 
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 questions like "what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in?" and you think he made a good case????? the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die, and you think the defense made a good case????? no wonder we're losing! we're aparently not trying to win! the clip i saw was even worse than that. the defense attorney was asking something like "what have you done to serve your country, as compared to these fine upstanding examples of patriotism?" i didn't see the response; i don't think it was shown on tv. i wish the response had been "i vote. i pay taxes. i pay my salary. i support the bill of rights, unlike you, counselor." in my dreams :-( now, the real question is, could this be a federal civil rights case, since the state case was a sham? (sound like a well-known los angeles trial?) probably not: fags and dykes aren't protected (for being fags and dykes) under civil rights laws. i would doubt any civil rights case would be in order for the point that you mentioned. even if it were possible, i think it is a bad idea since it smacks real strongly of double jeopardy. a civil case for damages is fine since that is a trial that would proceed regardless of the first. i think a bad precedent has already been set in the king trial in l.a. and something like this would make it worse. regardless of how bad anybody feels about this decision, it must stand that charges of assault were not not proven against the three marines and that's how it should stand. frank (who is still mad, but now somewhat sane) frank r. chloupek chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu department of physics -- *the* ohio state university (not just any ohio state university) "there is only one hard-and-fast rule about the place to have a party: somebody else's place." --p.j. o'rourke 
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 [ these two paragraphs are from two different posts. in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve's meaning or misrepresent him in any way. i don't *think* i've done so. ] as noted in another thread (limiting govt), the problem libertarians face is insuring that the "limited government" they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda. it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams. just as marxism "fails" to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to "wither away," libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human part of what started this was my earlier example of illinois, usa requiring anyone doing more than x automobile transfers a year (x = 10, i think) to become licensed as a used car dealer. in addition, it requirs anyone with a used car dealer's license to own at least 10 cars at a time, all the let me continue with this example and try to answer steve's questions. steve, let's say you have the talent and inclination to fix up and resell cars. either you've gotten good enough at it in your spare time to bump up against these limits, or you would like to do it full-time but these stupid, arbitrary laws prevent you from starting out small and pulling yourself up. so i'm protected from a hungry neighborhood competitor willing to take a low profit while working extra hard to fulfill my needs, and you're protected from doing what you want with your life. here's what i see libertarianism offering you: your money is truly yours; it belongs to you. you can use it to buy a car. if you use it to buy a car, it is truly your car; it belongs to you. you can use your money to fix up that car. since it is your car, you can sell that car. your life is truly yours; it belongs to you. it matters not if someone thinks that it's "wrong" for you to buy and sell 10 cars within 12 months rather than, say, 9 cars. they may dissaprove, but it is not their life or their money, it is your life and your money. my money is truly mine; it belongs to me. i can use it to buy a car. perhaps your car. perhaps that 10th car, the one that someone, somewhere dissaproves of you selling and, presumably, of me buying. that someone could go to the government and insist that the government make us stop it. but the government would be powerless to stop us from doing what we like with our own property, in the abscence of fraud or agression. and it would be powerless to stop us from associating with each other. this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream, but basic human decency and common sense. a real grass-roots example of freedom and liberty. and yes, not having a few people acting as our masters, approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other, does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition. thanks awfully, 
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 here's my own top ten response to mr. ipser's list 8. it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work, to provide the services that people need, and to help solve the problems that need to be solved. granted, some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money, and should be. but some things are going to cost more money and i'm sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time. you want to live in my country, you pay your fair share! some people pay shares that are more "fair" than others, and will continue to do so, even with the presence of president clinton. until the rich elite *hurt* from taxes and shower me with their blood dripping from the wound of the tax dagger, i will scream and yell. because, taxes are killing the poor and middle-class, and i'm tired of the wealthy getting a free ride in this country. sure, they pay a lot of taxes, but i want them to share my pain!! and, not even slick willy is *that* fair, is he, seeing that he and his wife qualify as one of those wealthy people i was talking about? [they're on the lower end of "wealthy", but "wealthy" they are.] 7. i can't believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes. if you're willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn't affect us and at worst really should be our friend, then you have no right to tell me you shouldn't pay taxes! yah, i think the draft for vietnam was a sack of shit. but, do we get to pick and choose which laws we obey, mr. chaudhary? if so, shall we set up a "you follow the laws you like, and i'll follow the laws i like" arrangement? 6. hey, i think the beaded curtains add a lovely 60's-esque touch! i never thought much of beaded curtains. now beaded seat-covers, on the other hand.... 5. [health care is a human right--deleted] i didn't think i was going to respond to this, but i changed my mind. tell me, why do you think health care is a human right? this isn't a flame or anything, i just wonder. next thing you know, free public transportation will be a human right. maybe membership at prestigious health spas? [sorry to grease the hill on ya there....] 4. make love, not war! be sure and wrap that wanker when you go spreadin' that free love stuff around. (or, after the fda gets its thumb out of its ass, use that neat new "reality" femi-condom.) 3. contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time. to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong, and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse. women certainly have as much to offer this world as men, and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills. i look forward to it. so do i. amen. and all that. 1. hey man, acadamia rules!! what the hell is an "acadamia" anyway? is that like a macadamia? it's been 80 days. do you know where your wallet is? slick willy's already got his hand in my pocket. i'm just afraid of what he might grab hold of. 
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 this country is hardly ruined. in fact, it is booming compared to after the 1980 election. this whole "usa has gone to hell and reagan/bush caused it", is not only lame, pathetic, and old....... it's wrong. under reagan/bush the economy grew by 1.1 trillion dollars. this is more than the entire economy of germany, a "kind, gentle" country, in many peoples' books. what a joke. drive down to cincinnati and take a look. not pretty, is it? things were much better there in 1980. all that growth went into the hands of ron and georgie's pals, and i didn't get a single dime of it, dammit. and, now, i'm gonna be bled to death by tax leeches to pay for the damage. f***ing great. oh, here's another thing. seems like a lot of people in columbus drive over to marysville and make japanese cars. hm. i wonder how many american-owned companies employ those in central ohio? other than ohio state university. :) it's been 80 days. do you know where your wallet is? slick willy's already got his hand in my pocket. i'm just afraid of what he might grab hold of. 
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 : first off they could recognise iraqu's responsibility in initiating the : iran/iraq war. providing technical assistance to iran to get it's oil : production back up to capacity would also be a smart move, at the moment : iran is above it's opec ceiling. if they had extra capacity they would : use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests. i agree with most of what phill says, except the point about it being in our interests to bring down the oil price. consider that both the u.s. and great britain have domestic sources to partly satisfy their energy needs. pricy opec oil impacts both germany, japan and many other "industrial rivals" more than these two. in addition, the proceeds from the sale (especially by saudi arabia, kuwait u.a.e. etc) are disproportionately reinvested in the u.s. and g.b., propping up these economies and further providing an incentive to keep prices from falling too low. dan epstein 
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 naw, i think you are. while both organizations may, on paper, support the abolition of the age of consent, there the resemblance stops. one supports the removal of a coercive law, the other a paper facade to "legitimize" sexual relations with children. i get it. one organization wants to abolish age of consent laws, whereas in contrast the other wants to abolish age of consent laws. this makes it respectable to belong to one organization, but not the gene ward smith/brahms gang/iwr/ruprecht-karls university gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de 
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough examination of american men's sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. 1) so what? 2) it will be interesting to see the reaction when 2.5million queers gather in washington dc. after all if there are only 6million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history... the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. don't forget that 25% had 20 or more partners.... compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual? or is that number to inconvient for you.... it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. fuck off ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 fury of mother nature man's contribution to environmental "pollution" are paltry compared to those of nature. in her exceptional book trashing the planet, former atomic energy commision chairman dr. dixie lee ray notes based on the available data, "all of the air polluting materials produced by man since the beginning of the industrial revolution do not begin to equal the quantities of toxic materials, aerosols, and particulates spewed into the air from just three volcanoes: krakatoa in indonesia in 1883, mount katmai in alaska in 1912, and hekla in iceland in 1947." to which could be added mount st. helens in washington state in 1980 (which pumped out 910,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide alone). el chicon in mexico in 1982 (which sent more than 100 million tons of sulfur gases into the stratosphere), and mount pinatubo in the philippines (which in 1991 hurled upwards of 30 million tons of material into the stratosphere). los ninos many environmentalists attributed the 1988 drought in the u.s. to global warming, but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in boulder colorado reported that the freakish weather was actually due to a natural phenomenon, the interaction of el nino and el nina, two massive currents in the tropical pacific. el nino is a huge strip of warm water that periodically appears off the coast of south america and disrupts the world's weather patterns. now and then, it alternates with el nina, a mass of cold water that comes from the ocean depths along the equator and drifts for thousands of miles. chicago tribune's peter gorner summarized the phenomenon: "cold water along the equator clashed with warmer than normal water southeast of hawaii. the result was both the u.s. drought and the devastating floods that swamped bangladesh...... nina's cooler water disrupted tropical weather patterns and distorted the path of the jet stream across north america. then the jet stream shoved rain-producing weather systems away from the interior of the u.s. resulting in drought." termite terror sundry animals and insects also contribute their share to environmental "degradation. time for april 20,1992 noted that in "the netherlands... manure from pigs poses a major ecological threat, defiling water supplies with excessive nitrites and acidifying local soils. sheep have permanently scarred the landscape in spain and portugal, while in india ... bovines [cows] are ravenous wraiths whose constant quest for food drives them to ravage standing forrests." the february 1983 issue of science digest reported that "an international team of researchers has discovered that termites generate more than twice the carbon dioxide that fuel burning does." according to a study reported in science for november 5, 1982, the "estimated gross amount of carbon dioxide produced [by termites] was more than twice the net global input from fossil fuel combustion." in addition, "termites are a potentially important source of atmospheric methane: they could account for a large fraction of global emmisions." the wood-eating pests have a bacteria that enables them too digest carbon so efficiently that some 90 pe is converted too carbon dioxide, methane, and other gases they belch into the atmosphere. ants are another natural source of "pollution." in 1987, an atmospheric chemist with bell laboratories, and zoologists from cornell university, reported that ants of the subfamily formicinae make and store huge quantities of the formic acid that contributes most of the acidity of rain that falls in remote areas and is found in atmosphere gas and precepitation around the globe. it is abundant, for instance, in the fog and mists that hang over the rain forests of central africa. according to the july 6, 1987 insight magazine, the "ants release the acid when defending themselves and communicating with each other and upon dying. since 30 percent of the world ant population belongs to this subfamily, there is significant concern about the acid the ants release," an amount estimated at "600,000 metric tons annually." which is equal to the combined formic acid contributions of automobiles, refuse combustion and vegetation." clearly, man has a long way to go to match nature as a "despoiler" of the by robert w. lee. techie@cellar.org (william a bacon) the cellar bbs - (215) 539-3043 
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 the following statement was released on february 27,1992 by the science & environmental policy project as independent scientists researching atmosphere and climate problems, we are concerned by the agenda for unced, the united nations conference on environment and development, being developed by environmental and activists groups and certain political leaders. this so called "earth summit" is scheduled to convene in brazil in june 1992 and aims to impose a system of global envionmental regulations, including onerous taxes on energy fuels, on the population of the united states and other industrialized nations. such policy initiatives derive from highly uncetain scientific theories. they are based on the unsupported assumption that catastrophic global warming follows from the burning of fossill fuels and requires immediate action. we do not agree. a survey of u.s. atmospheric scientists, conducted in the summer of 1991, confirms that there is no consesensus about the cause of the slight warming observed during the past century. a recently published research paper even suggests sunspot variability (which is directly proportional to solar activity), rather than a rise in greenhouse gases is responsible for the global temperature increases and decreases recoded since about 1880. futhermore, the majority of scientific participants in the survey agreed that the theoretical climate climate models used to predict a future warming cannot be relied upon and are not validated by the existing climate record. yet all predictions are based on such theoretical models. finally, agriculturalits generally agree that any increase in carbon dioxide levels from fossil fuels burning has beneficial effects on most crops and on world food supply. we are disturbed that activists, anxious to stop energy and economic growth, are pushing ahead with drastic policies without taking notice of recent changes in the underlying science. we fear that the rush to impose global regulations will have catastrophic impacts on the world economy, on jobs, standards of living, and health care, with the most severe consequences falling on developing countries and the poor. david b. aubrey, phd, senior scintist, woods hole oceanographic institute. nathaniel b. guttman, phd, research physical scientist, national climatic data center. hugh b. ellsaesser, phd, meteorologist, lawerence livermore national laboratory. richard lindzen, phd, center for meteorology and physical meteorolgy, massachusetts institute of technology. robert c. balling, phd, director, laboratory of climatology, arizona state university. patrick micheals, phd, assoc. professor of environmental sciences, universityy of virginia. roger pielke, phd, professor of atmospheric science, colorado state university. micheal garstang, phd, professor of meteorology, university of virginia. sherwood p. idso, phd, research physicist, u.s. water conservation laboratory. lev s. gandin phd, visiting scientist, national center for atmospheric research. john a. mcginley, chief, forecast research group, forecast systems laboratory, noaa. h. jean thiebaux, phd, research scientist, national meterological center, national weather service, noaa. kenneth v. beard, phd, professor of atmospheric physics, university of illinois. paul w. mielke, jr. phd, professor, department of statistics, colorado state university. thomas lockhart, meteorological standards institute. peter f. giddings, meterologist, weather service director. hazen a. bedke, meteoroligist, former regional director, national weather service. gabriel t. csanady, phd, eminent professor, old dominion university. roy leep, executive weather director, gillet weather data services. terrance j. clark, meteorologist, u.s. air force. neil l. frank, phd, meteorologist, national weather service. bruce a. boe, phd, director, north dakota atmospheric resource board. andrew detweiler, phd, assoc. professor, institute of atmospheric sciences, south dakota school of mines and robert m. cunningham, consulting meteorologist, fellow, american meteorological society. stephen r. hanna, phd, sigma research corporation, elliot abrams, meteoroligist, senior vice president, accuweather, inc. william e. reifsnyder, phd, consulting meteorologist, professor emeritus, forest meteorology, yale university. david w. reylnolds, research meteorologist. jerry a. williams, meteorologist, president, ocean routes, lee w. eddington, meteorologist, geophysics division, pacific missile test center.werner a braum, phd, former dean, college of arts & sciences, florida state university.david p. rodgers, phd, assoc. professor of research oceanography, scripps institution of oceanograghy. brian fiedler, phd, asst professor of meteorology, university of oaklahoma. edward a. brandes, meterologist. melvyn shapiro, chief of meteorological research wave propagation laboratory, noaa. joesph zabransky, jr., associate professor of meteorology, plymouth state college. james a. moore, project manager, research applications program, national center for atmospheric research. daniel j mcnaughton, ensr consultating and engineering. brian sussman, meteorologist, fellow, american meteorologist, fellow, american meteorological society. h read mcgrath, phd, meteorologist. robert e. zabrecky, meteorologist. william m. porch, phd, atmospheric physicist, los alamos national laboratory. earle r. williams, phd, associate profesor of meteorology, dept. of earth, atmospheric, and planetary sciences, massachusetts institute of technology. s. fred singer, phd, atmospheric physsicist, university of virginia, director, science & environmental policy project. (affilitions listed are for identification purposes only). techie@cellar.org (william a bacon) the cellar bbs - (215) 539-3043 
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 |> you might -- except that gay men are much more promiscuous than |> straight men -- which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are. excuse me a moment when i laugh my head off... i defy you to prove your statement "damaged and screwed up". you can't? oh dear. your argument, once again, mr logic(not!), falls flat on its face. take a course in civil behaviour and logic. then come back and defend your arguments. |> clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! |> relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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 |>path: dscomsa!dxcern!mcsun!uknet!pipex!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!apm |>from: apm@hpopdlau.pwd.hp.com (andrew merritt) |> i note with insufficient emotion that amongst the five survivors of the |> waco debacle, there were two brits and an aussie. the anglo-saxon persona |> really doesn't lend itself to martyrdom for a spurious messiah. |>i don't see how you draw that conclusion. around 20 of the 80 inside the |>buildings were british (one quarter). two out of the eight (latest count i |>heard) survivors were british (one quarter). anyhow, british doesn't equate |>to anglo-saxon. |>what exactly are you trying to say? and why were there no fire-engines within |>a mile of the compound? because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with 50mm amunition that has a range of 3000 meters. what crap, phil. 50mm? wrong. to give you a clue as to how big 50mm is, the f-16 fighter aircraft have 20mm gattling guns used to shoot down other aircraft. a 50mm gun would be somewhere in the `cannon' realm. they might have had .50 calibre but definitely not 50mm. paul r. busta busta@kozmic.enet.dec.com salem,n.h. 603-894-3962 "those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable..." 
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 |> if you don't care, why was so much effort put into promoting the |> 10% lie? because it was important to scare politicians into |> obedience. perhaps you should change your name to clayton "mr logic(not!)" cramer! please give evidence of the above statement or shut up. i believe that i may have answered that elsewhere, amongst your other ravings. |> clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! |> relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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 |> # i reckon *any* *man* would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a |> # huge variety of willing partners. the question here is not of being |> that, i suppose, says a lot about how screwed up you are. hey, clayton, it's me again! i just love your arguments. they completely clinch each and _every_ one of your points! but then again, that, i suppose, says a lot about how screwed up your are. hehe. i haven't had so much fun since i started blasting christians in alt.atheism! |> # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! |> # xavier |> clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! |> relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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 |> the walz monster above, however, was past 40 when he molested these |> kids, as he says above. hehehe! dontcha just love these carefully constructed arguements? clayton, babe, please define the word `molest`. are you using a legal term or a proper dictionary term? molest, as far as i can remember, means `to do damage to person(s)`. my mate, mike, was lured into a woman's parlour when he was 14. is that molestation? a number of my friends (straight) lost their virginity before that. were they 'molested'? they told me that they thoroughly enjoyed the experience. i see no damage. please stop pushing your objective morality on others. if you push, people won't fall over and say 'ye gads, you're right!', they'll just push back. have you signed up for that logic course yet? |> clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! |> relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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 |>xref: dscomsa alt.activism:6011 talk.politics.misc:22764 |>path: dscomsa!dxcern!mcsun!uunet!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!slp9k |>from: slp9k@cc.usu.edu |>newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc |>subject: re: welcome to police state usa |>message-id: <1993apr20.030234.66491@cc.usu.edu> |>date: 20 apr 93 03:02:34 mdt |>references: <1993apr20.004224.66488@cc.usu.edu> <c5rusq.m6m@news.cso.uiuc.edu> |>organization: utah state university |>lines: 34 |>> critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been |>> better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? |> firstly, they could have backed off. when you put a power freak, like |>david koresh, in that kind of situation he is going to explode. (no pun |>intended). koresh wanted to be a martyr and the government played right into |>his hands. |> if the government hadn't given him the attention he wanted nothing |>would have ever happened. |> secondly, the davidians were expecting everything the government did. |>they thought that they were facing the apocalypse, and that they were to perish |>in fire. they weren't scared of the fbi. they are not the average hoods, they |>are very devout followers of a religion. psyops didn't work and the government |>got frustrated so they murdered them. |> the batf should have left at the beginning, they should have looked at |>koresh's personality. instead they thought, "they have guns. we have bigger |>guns. let's go get 'em!" |> they botched it from day one. they shouldn't have been there in the |>first place. the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush. any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell. the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. had they expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one. the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police. if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it. phill hallam-baker 
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 no one has time to chase down every rumor that gets printed in the national enquirer or whatever. the point is to wait and see if the assertions of the (rather bizarre) original post will be corroborated in any way. perhaps they will. the recent posts of the rather bizarre original poster speak for themselves. this story was in the la times a few months ago. the clinton administration is exploring every avenue of "revenue enhancement", but not all will be chosen. there was a funny cartoon in sunday's ny times: "bill clinton's calendar". every day was april 15. 
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 a person sees the front of their home is strewn with garbage. that person removes the trash, and sweeps the sidewalk. his next door neigh- bors have not. the person then approaches his two neighbors and talks to them about cleaning the front of their homes, and why it would be good for their own living conditions, and that of the neighborhood. there's nothing wrong with holding your neighbors accountable for their actions. that is the basis for a viable, safe community. 
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 if you look through this newsgroup, you should be able to find clinton's proposed "wiretapping" initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems. this 'initiative" has been up before congress for at least the past 6 months, in the guise of the "fbi wiretapping" what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage? would they be so kind as to explain how this is "clinton's" initiative, when it has been before congress for "at least the past 6 months"? it is clinton's initiative now. he is pushing it hard aren't the liberals supposed to be concerned about privacy if you want to know more about the wiretapping initiative, read "1984" - it's in there, installed in every bedroom. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 homosexuals lie about the 10% number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation. they also lie about "10%" to keep politicians scared. out and out lie. not substantiated. i do not understand statments like these. please stop making such ridiculous claims. maybe you should consider working for or getting your information from the national inquirer for now on. but many of the people who will be marching aren't homosexuals, but other members of the leftist agenda. ahh! rabbit from a hat. here is another desperate step to discount any activity of the washington gay march. # #the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. # #the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. # don't forget that 25% had 20 or more partners.... not surprising. remember, that study includes homosexuals as well. yes, mr. cramer- and supposibly they are only 1% of the entire population. plus you stated that the 7.3 figure is a 'median'. 
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 # what was the purpose of this post? if it was to show a mindless obsession # with statistics, an incredibly flawed system of reasoning, and a repellent # hatemonger agenda, then the purpose was accomplished with panache. # (a) get a clue. (b) get a life. (c) get out of my face. i'm not in yours. # ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! yes you are. when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me, by requiring me to hire, rent to, or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will, yes, you are in my face. until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me, i will be in your face about this. but aren't you imposing your moral standards against gay people because you do not want to rent to, or hire, or as you put associate with, ( and i do not know of a law that requires you to associate with gay people)? it works both ways. all people want to have an equal opportunity for all things that lie in the public domain. it will be a gigantic step forward when people take other people based upon ability and talent, rather than skin color, eye color, height, weight, sexual orientation (and i use this last one as meaning gay, bi, straight, let's not go off on the tangent about pedophiles, rapist, etc.) 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? well, they never should have gotten into this situation. look at the history of this group. david koresh has been arrested ?twice? by local police. both times, he accepted the arrest warrant and went peacefully. so, the feds decide to arrest him. how do they choose to arrest a person with a record of peaceful obedience under arrest? they throw a concussion grenades at his building. in addition, we know that we've been lied to. initially, we were told that they suspected him of molesting children and having several wives. but these are not atf offenses, were they? so they changed their story, several times. and the original warrant is still sealed. and we were told about the rockets and ammunition they had... but did anyone notice any ammo exploding in the fire? they claimed that koresh hadn't left the compound in months... but people in town report seeing him just a week before the raid. how would i have handled it differently? well, first, i haven't seen any evidence that the bds did anything wrong. there's a sealed warrant, and a collection of stories which keep changing about what they did. so i might not have done anything. ok. now, supposing that i know what the bds are being arrested for. well, they've got a history of accepting arrests... so, i send officers to the door with a warrant. wearing bulletproof vests. covered from a distance by sharpshooters. now, there's no good reason to suspect that these people will do anything, right? why didn't anyone try serving a warrant? ok. going further. they refuse the warrant. it becomes necessary to raid. you plan a raid. you hear an hour before that there was a leak, and they know your coming. so what do you do? well, change your plans, right? nope... they go ahead with it anyone... including sending in unprotected men to break into the place. it was idiotic. i don't know what i would have ended up doing. but that original raid should never have happened. the shit that came later should never have happened. the full record of the raid should be released to the public to let us know what the hell really happened there. the lies should never have been told. <mc> || mark craig carroll: <mc> ||"we the people are getting tired of your lies || univ of delaware, dept of cis|| we the people now believe that it's time || grad student/labstaff hacker || we're demanding our rights to the answers || carroll@udel.edu || we elect a precedent to state of mind"-fish 
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 : # #the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. : # don't forget that 25% had 20 or more partners.... : not surprising. remember, that study includes homosexuals as well. implying, no so tacitly, that homosexual men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men. interesting, especially in the wake of a news report last week about a group of high school seniors (heterosexual, i might add) who boasted monthly conquests of up to *67* girls *each*. it seems that promiscuity is not limited to homosexuals. this is a sad fact of life: no matter what you look for -- whether it be homosexual promiscuity, racial discrimination, or sexual harassment -- you *will* find it. whether or not it actually exists where you're 
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 : the median of a distribution is that variate-value which divides the : distribution halfway, i.e. 1/2 of the distribution (population) have : lower and half have higher variate-values. : so for males 20-39 the median=7.3, this means that half of these men : are higher than this and half are lower than this. now if the population : sample size is 3300, and 1% of them are gay, 33 males are gay. if we : say they are distributed equally then only 16.5 are greater than 7.3 : sexual partners, of course, this means that 49.5% heterosexual men are : greater than 7.3. not quite. first, the median does not imply that half of the men are above and half below 7.3: it simply means that 7.3 is the mid-point between the maximum number of partners and the minimum (which is most likely zero). however, assuming your implication to be more-or-less correct, your final result is still invalid. if 50% of *all* males have had more than 7.3 partners, and you deduct the assumed 1% of homosexual males, what remains is not 49.5%, but still *50%* of all *heterosexual* males. which is to say: hey, we're all human. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178628">
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 # so, what can we deduce from these figures? are there a lot # less male homosexuals than there used to be or are men # (perhaps women too) not as honest as they used to be about # there sexuality? presumably, the people that were polled in you mean, in the 1940s, men and women were much more open about their homosexuality than today? want to try that one again? that probably is not true. but today it may not be much better for the gay population in general. you mean, ignore study after study, so that we can continue to accept a study (kinsey's) that is obviously wrong? where are all of these studies? you have cited a few, and my research shows that there are not that many. do not confuse a survey as a study, there is a big difference. asking people outside of a polling booth and adding up numbers is not a study. # as easily of been gay i suppose. one of the big debates about # homosexuality is whether or not it's a type of behavior that is # learned or if one is just born that way. imho, the more likely # explanation is that it's some combination of the two. based on what, besides your own warm fuzzy feelings? but this is what you base most of your conclusion upon. warm fuzzy feelings. maybe he has stated an educated opinion based upon the studies that involve genetics and psychological influence. there are a lot of those types of studies, aren't there? try reading some. # here's something to ponder upon: have any of you gay-bashers out # there ever considered that homosexuals probably deem their sexual # orientation as being a state of affairs that is just as much an # intrinsic and "natural" part of their life as heterosexuals do # about their own sexuality? in other words, someone who is *truly* alcoholics share that feeling, until they hit bottom. this is a crap statement and comparison. many people use this sad and stupid argument. there is not relationship between alcoholics and people's sexual orientation- except that some may find what it really is when they are drunk (repressed inhibition released). unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of recent works suggest. nonsense- this simply is not true. i suppose it is a waste of time to try and tell you to understand what a study presents. most of what you cite does not extrapolate anything, you do. if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others (antidiscrimination laws) and leave our children if people in general would stop using irrational position to oppress other's and leave our private lives to ourselves, i would have no support for laws and rules to protect people form this. but we need only look at post such as yours to see that they lack rational thought and intelligent outlooks. alone, i wouldn't care in the least what they did in private. but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live, i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an "alternative lifestyle," but a sickness. remember that peaceful people are not necessarily doing the right thing. peaceful, tolerant, enlightened, educated, rational thinking people- that is what we need. 
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 #really? i thought that insurance companies hired all of #their actuarial staffs to determine the risks correlated #with all groups of people, and that gays are more likely #to have aids than are those of other sexual orientations. correlation != causality. the risk factor is having non-monogomous unprotected sex, not being -greg hennessy, university of virginia usps mail: astronomy department, charlottesville, va 22903-2475 usa internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu uucp: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w 
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 [much blathering on the role of military forces in enforcing civil law deleted] the main problem with trying to get the military involved in police work is the differences in the missions. the police take names, try and find out what happened, stop suspects (thats the meaning of 'arrest') and turn them over to the custody of the judicial branch for the adjudication of their case. the military's mission is to kill the enemy before they can escape or surrender. pyotr@halcyon.com sometimes pyotr filipivich, sometimes owl. optimist: bagpiper with a beeper. 
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 the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story. this is simply rationalisation. it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent. that would require them to come up with a solution themselves. instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder 80 people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through. what's despicable is that this sordid incident is being glommed onto by all sorts of people desperately trying to "get a revolution." it makes "ambulance chasing" by lawyers seem like a harmless pastime. for the last few months, benighted souls have been calling c-span on issues as mundane as budget resolutions, saying that "i don't know, i just have the feeling there is going to be a revolution in this country," and so on. get real! for a real case study in revolution, go to blockbuster video and check out "underground," a film made about the weather underground in the 70's. even with all the strife back then, the "revolution" never did come. and waco is supposed to be the spark of the end times? in the tape, it is interesting to see the way the weatherpersons dance around the issue of one of their defining moments, which was when a few of their comrades managed to blow themselves up manufacturing bombs in a greenwich village townhouse. the problem, one of them said, was that they were so caught up in their armed struggle that they *forgot* about their own personal safety and weren't "careful." but of course that was *society's* fault, a society that didn't instill a sense of worth in the people, so they neglect their own safety. current apologists for koresh may pick up some important rationalization tips from this tape! joe knapp jmk@cbvox.att.com 
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 |>xref: dscomsa alt.activism:6011 talk.politics.misc:22764 |>path: dscomsa!dxcern!mcsun!uunet!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!slp9k |>from: slp9k@cc.usu.edu |>newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc |>subject: re: welcome to police state usa |>message-id: <1993apr20.030234.66491@cc.usu.edu> |>date: 20 apr 93 03:02:34 mdt |>references: <1993apr20.004224.66488@cc.usu.edu> <c5rusq.m6m@news.cso.uiuc.edu> |>organization: utah state university |>lines: 34 |>> critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been |>> better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? |> firstly, they could have backed off. when you put a power freak, like |>david koresh, in that kind of situation he is going to explode. (no pun |>intended). koresh wanted to be a martyr and the government played right into |>his hands. |> if the government hadn't given him the attention he wanted nothing |>would have ever happened. |> secondly, the davidians were expecting everything the government did. |>they thought that they were facing the apocalypse, and that they were to perish |>in fire. they weren't scared of the fbi. they are not the average hoods, they |>are very devout followers of a religion. psyops didn't work and the government |>got frustrated so they murdered them. |> the batf should have left at the beginning, they should have looked at |>koresh's personality. instead they thought, "they have guns. we have bigger |>guns. let's go get 'em!" |> they botched it from day one. they shouldn't have been there in the |>first place. the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush. the above statement ignores reality. the bd were provoked. any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell. damn, phil. you must have seen a different tape of the initial raid than i did. your `doorbell' happened to include lobbing percussion grenades and attempting to storm the compound through the windows. i can honestly say i have never seen a `doorbell' that works like that. the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. had they expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one. think, man. the batf are serving a warrant on someone who they feel might have illegal automatic weapons. if they expected, as you state, that `the b-d to be anything other than peaceful citizens' they could have sent one, maybe two agents up to the front door, knock, and attempt to serve the warrant on the person answering the door. scenario one, that person lets them in to perform the search and no one gets hurt. scenario two, the person answering the door pulls a weapon aand kills both officers. now you have two dead batf agents instead of four, the batf knows exactly where they stand with regards to the bd and began to formulate a plan of action to arrest those responsible without harm to the innocent people/children within the compound. the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police. no, the stupidity was the attempt to serve the warrant swat style. if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it. sure, do it within the law. the batf is there to uphold the law, not circumvent it to fit their needs..... phill hallam-baker paul r. busta busta@vicki.enet.dec.com salem, n.h. 603-894-3962 "one only sees what one observes, and one observes only those things which are already in the mind." 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? for starters, they could have gone on waiting and negotiating. the davidians weren't going anywhere, and their supplies had to be limited. large, perhaps, but limited. if they had simply fired the compound by themselves without gov't tanks smashing down their walls, then at least the gov't would not be guilty of having _again_ used an inappropriate level of force, and would have been able to use the meantime to continue to pressure and negotiate. no, they would not have looked good on the news in six months or a year. but they sure as hell don't look very good now. larry smith (smith@ctron.com) no, i don't speak for cabletron. need you ask? liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want, it is the freedom to do whatever we are able. 
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 |> > >just because someone is gay doesn't mean they have no morals. just because |> > >someone is heterosexual doesn't mean they do. look at the world.... |> > >statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero... |> hmmm, what statistics are these? can you offer any references. the only |> studies i've seen indicate a higher proportion of homosexuals in prison |> than in the general population, but i don't think that allows for the |> "default" you refer to. prison is not a normal situation... |> but i haven't seen anything that suggests that the "default" proportion is |> lower than in the general population (although it seems plausible). |> anyway, as i say, can you provide any references? is this an arguement against or for? or simply a statement of agreeance/ disagreeance. the fact that there are more homosexuals in prison does not mean that homosexuals are immoral and more liable to commit crime. and one must remember that prison is not necessarily a reflection of the type of people who are criminals. what are the statistics for unsolved crime? |> this posting is definitive. bljeghbe'chugh vaj blhegh. |> wayne mcdougall :: keeper of the list of shows better than star trek(tm) :: |> ask me about the auckland festival of missions, 18-25 april, 1993 |> i always change my mind when new evidence is available. what method do you use? | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | | eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) mae .sig 'ma ar werth! | 
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 :so we try to ensure that the process of deciding whether to introduce :third parties isn't random. as steve said above, there are examples :where third parties *are* less ignorant or corrupt than the two :primary parties; should this knowledge not be able to help? of course it helps, but only if the decision to involve third parties is the primary partis' to make. a corrupt and ignorant third party isn't going to say, "we're corrupt and ignorant, we'll stay out of this". pointing out that they are corrupt and ignorant won't help, they either won't believe you or won't care. :> it's impossible (or at least beyond my abilities) to formulate a rule :>that will always tell whether the involvement of a third party would be :>good or bad, but there's one that seems better than any other i've ever :>heard suggested: voluntary good, mandatory bad. that is, a third :>party should involve itself in a transaction only at the request of :>the primary participants. :so we *don't* formulate a rule that will always tell; we try to use :knowledge about other properties of situations. to some of us, it :appears that trying always to apply "voluntary good, mandatory bad" :is not only less than optimal, it is in some circumstances seriously :damaging. the interesting question is to characterize those :circumstances as best we can. look, somebody has to have the power to decide whether a third party will regulate your transactions or not. that somebody is going to be either you or the third party. you can argue until you are blue in the face that regulators shouldn't get involved (in fact, people have tried this), they won't listen. the fundamental question you have to ask is, whose decision is it whether or not to involve regulators, ours or theirs? after you've answered thed first question, you can try to move on to such questions as "should regulators be involved" and, if so, "what regulations are appropriate?" although with your answer to the first question, the second and third are taken out of your hands. mr. grinch 
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 in a previous article, garrett@ingres.com (the sky already fell. now what?) says: i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas, into protected bank accounts, while you are still able. have you? went to the post office on friday, got my passport apps in. my savings have already been converted. "nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come." --tussman garrett@ingres.com "the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action." - unknown 
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 |what will you do for a religion now that marxism-leninism is dead? who said it was dead. it seems to be alive and well here on the net. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 writes... you dumb shit. it's amazing that someone with your limited vocabulary learned how to use a computer. didn't they require you to take english at the where you went? or are you just crude by nature? i'm forced to agree with garrett here. there's no need for vulgarity, or even hostility. i mean, it's not as though garrett _asked_ to be born dumber than a bag of hammers. while it can occasionally be annoying, there is a noble tragedy to someone with no knowlege of geography or pre-madonna history thinking that his political views are worth reading. something like a hydroencephalic trying to master nuclear physics. i was the first to note that the population of the prc isn't gonna fit into cambodia unless you puree them, so there's no need to keep pounding on that idiocy. there are plenty of other idiocies in his post. find your own and stop hogging mine. at first this kind of ranting annoyed me, but now it's rather entertaining. these kinds of posts don't require any facts, logic, or even sense. it's kind of like what 10-year old kids do on the playground. so go on and play. not everyone on the net is as simple minded as you guys seem to be. dave griffith, information resources, university of chicago, biological sciences division dave@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu brain damage was what we were after. the chromosome damage was just gravy. "nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come." --tussman garrett@ingres.com "the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action." - unknown 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? lightly off track, but still relevant: why all the crying over the children? i know we are hardwired to consider the future of the race, and comapssionate people are concerned for all children; but so what? for the branch davidians, the options were to die or submit to evil[tm] - and have their children's very souls lost due to the brain washing of the ungodly state. (to put this in terms the 'average' netter might grasp: they considered it the equivalent of putting jesse helms in charge of nea _and_ mtv.) and remembering that in 1983 the supreme court struck down freedom of conscience (irs vs bob jones et al.): who's next? is your religion / belief system government approved? jim jones had won numerous awards from the state before he moved to guiana? obviously state regulation would have stopped that tragedy too. p.s. the mormons weren't always saints, but they did go a long way to be left alone. always a thoughtcrime in any properstate. pyotr@halcyon.com sometimes pyotr filipivich, sometimes owl. optimist: bagpiper with a beeper. 
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 any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell. of course they did, otherwise they wouldn't have staged the raid in the first place. the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. had they expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one. the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police. if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it. napalming seems a bit redundant. the stupidity was in the batf mindset 'we're from washington we know better" execute plan a: storm the compound in a no-knock - the locals are gullible rubes, who cares that they served warrents by knocking on the door. such an old fashioned, out dated method of law enforcement anyway. gotta have the latest armament technology, doncha know? sweet baby buddah - didn't these clown ever read "dealing with paranoids"? phill hallam-baker pyotr@halcyon.com sometimes pyotr filipivich, sometimes owl. optimist: bagpiper with a beeper. 
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 #tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced .... ah, ending discrimination is now fascism. -greg hennessy, university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will, we're having to associate with you against our will. this is fascism! you don't have to associate with anyone against your will. go live in a cave. we won't miss you. ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 basically, i think this tendency for non african americans to believe that something is wrong with us exists because non african americans don't want to deal with the possiblility that the society is deeply biased against african americans, and that this is about 80% of the problem. there is something terribly wrong, however, with a culture which condemns, attacks, and all too often kills any of its members who attempt to get an education. my mother is an elementary school teacher, and she tells me that she and her african american collegues are frustrated to tears by the fact that any african american child who attempts to do well in school and get an education is accused by his/her peers of "trying to be white", and is beaten, bullied, and tormented by them. it goes beyond each passing grade on a test earning a beating. in my mother's school, one of the most promising young students, who happened to be african american, had her throat cut by one of these young thugs. nobody who buys into such a culture has any hope of being anything but poor and/or a thug and/or dead, regardless of their color. what has to be changed is the culture. if that culture can't be changed, then those african-american kids who are willing to separate from it *must* be separated from it and the murderous thugs of whatever color. otherwise, future bright young african american girls who wanted to be doctors will end up dead on the school bus. let's face it, when it comes to utilities, microsoft has | mike van pelt performed about as well as a savings and loan. these are | mvp@netcom.com the guys, remember, who put backup and restore - not to | mvp@lsil.com mention edlin - on your hard disk. - lincoln spector +---- 
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 # well, the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits # if the oppertunity presented itself? # i reckon *any* *man* would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a # huge variety of willing partners. the question here is not of being that, i suppose, says a lot about how screwed up you are. no cramer it does not. in this instance you are telling porkies to *yourself* as well as everyone else. haven't you ever been to a cafe or restaurant and been absalutely stuffed full of goodies and yet when one more item, just a little different, with a new texture and a new taste, was presented you *somehow* found the space for it. maybe you haven't, so what? it is a widely reported phenomina and i reckon the same applies to sex. # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! # xavier clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! 
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 unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of recent works suggest. mr. cramer, when are you going to stop indulging in such blatant lies? this is not only not true, you know damned well that it's not true. none of your research supports this; no mental health expert has taken this position. this is *your own* opinion which is not backed up by any research or any knowledge. according to one survey, done in san francisco, the number of heterosexual men who were molested as children was on the order of 5%. the number of homosexual men who were molested as children was on the order of 8%. source: a book on sexual abuse of children by david finkelhor (sorry, the title escapes me). conclusions that can be drawn from this: none. if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others (antidiscrimination laws) and leave our children alone, i wouldn't care in the least what they did in private. but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live, i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an "alternative lifestyle," but a sickness. oh, you definitely have a choice. you realize, of course, that you are approaching the two-year anniversary of your crusade. how are you planning on celebrating two years of lies? incidentally, we are still waiting your crusade against african-americans, women, and other minorities who also want to "impose their morality on others". after all, they also want the government to "tell peaceful people how to live." therefore, you really "have no choice", but to continue to point out that being a woman or an african-american is not a lifestyle, but a sickness. it's bullshit, mr. cramer. it was bullshit when you began this crusade and it's still bullshit. i am continually amazed at the depths to which you'll stoop to carry on this deliberate attack. paul bartholomew pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov 
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 |>path: dscomsa!dxcern!mcsun!uknet!pipex!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!apm |>from: apm@hpopdlau.pwd.hp.com (andrew merritt) |> i note with insufficient emotion that amongst the five survivors of the |> waco debacle, there were two brits and an aussie. the anglo-saxon persona |> really doesn't lend itself to martyrdom for a spurious messiah. |>i don't see how you draw that conclusion. around 20 of the 80 inside the |>buildings were british (one quarter). two out of the eight (latest count i |>heard) survivors were british (one quarter). anyhow, british doesn't equate |>to anglo-saxon. |>what exactly are you trying to say? and why were there no fire-engines within |>a mile of the compound? because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with 50mm amunition that has a range of 3000 meters. next question. the problem is of course the laws that allow a bunch of raving nutters to collect a huge stack of arms in the first place. the sequence of events meant that there really was no option but to attempt some sort of breakthrough via an intervention. if the fbi had had the stomach for it they could have mounted a commando type raid and attempted to save the children by shooting all the adults. it really was a no win situation. koresh had plenty of opportunity to give up and stand trial for the murder of the 4 atf officers. instead he ordered the murder of the children. in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive the words of a man who has just murdered 17 children and ordered the suicide/murder of his other 80 followers. according to the account given the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them. the koresh/gun supporter claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up. if the aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier grade weaponry than standard issue handguns. for all practical purposes they were unarmed, the b-d followers had automatic weapons. the b-d seige could not be allowed to go on indefinitely. the b-d were quite capable of commiting mass suicide and murdering the children at any time. a commando assault was the only other likely action that could have achieved that objective, that would have been very risky, orders of magintude harder than antebbe or the iranian embassy seige. airplanes and embassies are not designed for defense against attack ranch apocalypse was. 6 terrorists are far easier to disloge without casualties than 80. allowing the siege to go on was not an option either, besides the serious risk that koresh would proclaim armageddon at any moment there was the question of the difficulties of keeping the emmergency team on standby over a prolonged period. the longer the siege went on the more mentally prepared koresh and his followers would be for a prolonged siege. rather than go in prematurely the mistake was probably to go in too soon. can you think of a better way of getting the children out? a 100% certain way? the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story. this is simply rationalisation. it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent. that would require them to come up with a solution themselves. instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder 80 people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through. this conspiracy theory assumes that the batf deliberately got 4 of its agents killed and that the fbi etc actually enjoy sitting out in the middle of texas being shot at by religious nutters. still the conspiracy theory is comforting, it allows them to pretend that waco proves nothing except about how incompetent the government is in resolving a hostage crisis. no govt in the world has ever faced a comparable situation, quite probably there was no manner in which it could be peacefully resolved. the blame does not rest on the fbi, it rests on the fact that koresh was allowed to get so far, in particular the person who tipped the b-d off in advance has the murder of 4 atf agents and 17 children on his or her conscience. there are a large number of people in the us who predict the end of society preach salvation through armed security. the fact is that these are the very people who pose the threat to society in the first place. the next waco may not be religious nutters but a political movement. a splinter group of the klu klux klan taking over a schoolhouse in a black area for example and holding several hundred children hostage. the only possible solution to such situations that can work is to prevent them arising. no other government in the world has faced such a situation. this is because no other government has so carelessly allowed high power weaponry to become avaliable to any little hitler or would be messiah to set themselves up as dictator in their own little empire. phill hallam-baker 
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 is anyone out there knowledgeable on drug issues in japan? i'm interested in knowing if japan has or has ever had a problem with drugs, and how they dealt with it. i've heard, undocumented, that japan years ago used heavy legal penalties to end a serious heroin problem. i'd like to know both sides of the story. does anyone recall such a problem? what were laws at the time relating to drug use, drug dealing, and drug trafficking? what are the laws now? what other anti-drug measures, like education and treatment has japan used? how are drugs regarded by the japanese people? how effective have anti-drug measures been in japan? thanks for your help. - david borden borden@m5.harvard.edu 
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 [some chump at brandeis:] i mean, how many people actually care how many people are gay (as long as you know how to find/avoid them if you want to)? i don't. if you don't care, why was so much effort put into promoting the 10% lie? because it was important to scare politicians into i wouldn't worry too much about it, though. we are starting to find out how politically impotent homosexuals really are. the colorado boycott has fizzled, slick willie was effectively prevented from implementing his military policy wrt homosexuals by members of his _own_ party, this new study casts a large shadow of doubt on their claims of large numbers, and coming this saturday they are going to wind up with _tremendous_ egg on their face when, i submit, no more than perhaps 35,000 queers will show up in washington while they are promising crowds in the millions. and most of the ones who will be there will look like act-up and queer nation, not the guy working in the next cubicle. as if that's really going to play in middle pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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 gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) writes... gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) writes... okay, but do doctors willingly testify against each other in malpractice cases when they do go to court (obviously, absolutely essential to prove malpractice)? it used to be impossible to get doctors here to do that (a possible advantage of the us system you won't hear about from the ama). our doctors' monopoly is exactly the same as in the u.s., if not more powerful now that they can dictate insurance payment rates, but i don't know an answer to this one. anecdotally, my friends who are md's (including my main buds from high school) talk about how hard it is to turn "state's witness" against someone else ... no direct experience there, though. also, in some circumstances you may have to sue the insurance plan- people here, after all, sue health insurance companies all the time. i heard about a guy in alberta who came down with some rare eye disease that he had to take repeated trips to seattle to get treated. it cost him and his family something like $6000 and the province, years later, still has only reimbursed them for $500 or so. well, what american private insurance plans cover travel expenses??? since our public insurance plans are publicly accountable, one can raise a stink in the media to try and extort benefits beyond which one is entitled (hey, not alberta's fault that he lives there) ... if he lived in cheyenne, wy his private insurance would've told him to go to hell for the travel expenses and that's that. an hmo would have just kept quiet and let him go blind. well, yeah, tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa. it serves the same purpose as the bethesda naval hospital ... since not all hospitals can provide everything, maybe they have some stuff that others don't? (ottawa's population is only a quarter million, if you include the surrounding counties.) my point was that something that should necessarily remain unpoliticized has become very politicized, to the detriment of its mission. i don't think that this has been shown with the dmc ... the problem is, in a system where hospitals' annual budgets are approved by the government, how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions? i bet that if you're an mp or mpp, or good friends with one, you're put on any hospital's "urgent" care list no matter how minor your problem. which is ok unless you're someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot. people of influence will get their way in any system, american or european. it's the "golden rule" - he who has the gold makes the rules. (-; but to what extent does it affect the system? and why is an urgent care list necessary in the first place? it's worth thinking about. it's regular practice in a hospital to figure out who needs to get at what facilities. don't americans have to arrange in advance for operations too? i think that there are two standards being applied here, and that canada can't give beverly hills-style treatment to everybody. it's not a big brother list ... it's more like calling around town for a table for dinner ... yeah, but private nonprofit foundations have to make money somehow, especially in the hospital business. yes, and the tories in ottawa are trying to make them do that rather than hope for a bigger grant from the feds and their province the next time around. whether it's using mop a couple of weeks longer or even selling services to americans (remember, our system is cash based and since our health care infrastructure is overbuilt except in specialties that require larger populations to generate business, why not? the alternative is closing unused wards ... business.). whether canadians would be thrilled at the prospect of their own health services catering toward americans, who would be willing to pay more than they do, is another issue entirely), it must be noted that they said they were doing it partly because their grants from the province were getting smaller if those grants are so insubstantial, why the need to attract foreigners to make up the you answered the question yourself ... "private nonprofit foundations have to make money somehow", and i think that it's about time that they acted like the private hospitals that they are. personally, i'm fed up with canadian socialists trying to tell everyone that their health care is free when we are actually buying insurance (that's one at you, bob rae!!). the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay, and are compiled use the same methods by the oecd that yield the 13-14% figure for the u.s. but don't the us figures include dentistry and optometry where the canadian one (until recently, anyway) didn't? since we have always been evaluated in an oecd style, i don't see how ... remember, oecd counts both private and public funds, and in canada like france and germany, 30% of health care spending is private funds (i.e., not the basic health insurance money). so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse. how? they are collecting premiums ... and i'm an advocate of having copayments like the french do in their system ... well, if you spend more than you take in, you go bankrupt. it's that simple. if the provincial insurance systems find themselves paying out more than they get in revenue, they won't be able to pay for everybody's primary care. yes, the infrastructure will be there. but will everybody be able to continue using it at the same rate. minor copayments can flush out abusers. remember that our "system" is only an insurance policy. but our costs aren't rising fast enough to ensure adequate copayments/deductibles ... last year, quebec's user-fee proposal came out with the number of "$5" as the necessary hike that could be done through a copayment rather than give the qma a raise. and it's not contract time yet, as far as i can tell from upi clarinet ... even the new reform party, a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly "libertarian" faction, holds our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it's not free (the average canadian/european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these). but no mention of copayments anywhere to be seen ... but cutting public spending all over the place, and bringing back the death penalty, with little haste if elected. i know that, for pete's sake, i live right on the border. i know the canadian system isn't socialized medicine (unlike britain's nhs). sorry! (-; it's just that i even run into people from buffalo and from michigan who don't know ... the point is, that means that if the money runs low in the plan, you're out of luck unless you can afford it yourself. yeah, but there'd be a lot of lead-time and a health-care crisis that would preclude it. if provincial governments (as bad as some of them are; heck, we have the ndp cleaning up a spending mess made by the conservatives in saskatchewan - embarassing!) can be so irresponsible, there is still reallocation --- health insurance is so important that it's about the only thing that can inspire open rebellion and violent insurrection outside of the hockey rink. right now, attempts to get the system and its users to learn good habits are being treated like cod-liver oil ... would the private insurers take up the slack? they'd be under no obligation to. of course, they could eventually make money again, but if what you say is true, they'd be loathe to do so (and out of practice in handling such basic services, too). some of the companies providing extra insurance are subsidiaries of american companies, and their parents provide full insurance down here. regardless, all firms up north can easily turn on cable tv to see how well the american firms are doing by being involved in basic coverage. the private firms are making too much money after having gotten rid of basic coverage. they run around patting them- selves on the back for their own cooperation in providing extras for those people who "deserve it". yeah, but eventually it's going to create a kind of two-tiered effect that will be noticeable after a while, like in britain. most americans are fearful of a single-tier system ... (-; seriously, there are few areas that have sufficient population for a two/more-tiered system like what the french have ... a health policy prof, d.g. shea, has cited studies in the nejm that indicate having a population of 500,000 is necessary for adequate competition ... and in canada, there are only four cities west of the great lakes with that population or larger. anyways, the numbers show that costs have held steadier than those in the u.s. and barring any future chernobyl-like crisis, sudden transients in spending are unlikely. in fact, the health allocation is one of the most well-behaved sectors of spending up north so any talk of bankruptcy is talk-radio fodder far away from the border. if the provinces hit fiscal rough spots and have to cut back, the things private insurers have to offer will seem less and less like luxuries and the gap will be more and more noticeable. this won't be overnight, and something like this would force canada to have a system more like the french one ... but that's not a bad thing, and the change will be minimal (i.e., add copayments and frustrate the socialists chanting "hey, it's *free*!"). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 : it would seem that a society with a "failed" government would be an ideal : setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented. now why do you suppose : that never seems to occur?... advances in freedom have been made in the past. the "divine right of king" concept was questioned at one time and may have used the same argument, that it hadn't come about before. but our ancestors had the courage to throw off the old system that said that one man ruling many was necessary to have a decent, wholesome society. in the 1800s the concept of slavery was questioned. our ancestors had the courage to question a practice that had existed for thousands of years. was the idea that one man owning another necessary to have a decent, wholesome society? now libertarians question the necessity of majoritarianism. is it necessary that many people rule over many others to have a decent, wholesome society? paul schmidt: advocates for self-government, davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive, johnson city, tn 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269 "freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people -- and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress." -- u.n. report 
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 |>>|> excerpts from "insight" magazine, march 15, 1993 | *paranoia part deleted.* | isn't insight magazine published by the mooneys? i don't remember the article that you removed so i can't comment on it. what i can comment on though is your response. do you really believe that what you wrote is sufficient to refute the article? do have any facts in addition to your opinion? no one has time to chase down every rumor that gets printed in the national enquirer or whatever. the point is to wait and see if the assertions of the (rather bizarre) original post will be corroborated in any way. perhaps they will. the recent posts of the rather bizarre original poster speak for themselves. 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? anything but... bill clinton and janett reno should not have started the whole shenanigan in the first place. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? how about tell everyone what the hell they were doing there in the first place? if we knew that, we'd be in a much better position to judge their actions. until then, we can only speculate and develop nice conspiracy and/or police state stories. 
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 not this again. 
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 bzzzzt. thank you for playing, but obviously you are not reading the material as it is presented. according to the report i've got in my hands, the newsweek article (which reported that "2 to 3 percent" of the population is gay) used the criteria of "no heterosexual contact in the past year." but at the same time, the university of denver study points out, quite dramatically, that 60% of all self-identifying gay men have had some form of heterosexual contact in the past year. i think the big mistake in that study must be that if one had had no sexual contact of any kind in the previous year, they are counted as heterosexual. even if they didn't intend it that way, that's how the figures are being used. 
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 wait a second, you're ignoring major facts here. there was no attempt to simply serve a warrant. the batf had a no-knock warrant. the initial firefight began when the batf threw concussion grenades at the building. (batf admits this!) when did the batf say this? everything i've seen from the batf, from the official version to the dissident statements of batf officers who conducted the raid claims that the davidians were shooting at the agents long before they were within grenade also, if the warrant is sealed, how do we know it was a 'no-knock'? _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 this is a tesrt 
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 : no. i make a distinction between working for yourself to survive and : paying dues to mother nature in the form of labour and working for : joe propertyowner because you do not have the option of working for : yourself. joe propertyowner stands between you and the earth you : work and expects you to pay him *and* mother nature for the right : to survive. the property laws create a layer of parasites that get : fat on the fact that people have *no option* except to work in : factories. i want people to be able to get the things they need in life. property ownership may not be ideal, but it is far better at letting people get what they need to live a productive, fulfulling life. the first experiment in america, where property ownership was denied, caused, starvation, hunger, and death. few people know that the pilgrims originally tried to have common property to grow food and a common food store. many people know the hardships they suffered the first few winters because of it. after arriving, the pilgrims made all property common. they all shared in the work and the resulting crops went into a common store. after much debate the new governor bradford privitized the land; assigning plots to each family. according to perry d. westbrook: "the change was immediately justified by the increased industry of the inhabitants and by the larger acreage planted." bradford himself acknowledged this failure of communism. he wrote: "the experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanity of that conceit of plato's and other ancients applauded by some of later times; that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than god. for this community (so far as it was) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort." bradford did not blame this failure on the "strangers", but on the basic selfishness in all men. he wrote "seeing all men have this corruption in them, god in his wisdom saw another course fitter for them." in other words, according to westbrook, "bradford found private enterprise to be the most suitable economic policy for mankind in its fallen state." let's not make the same mistake that the pilgrims made. private property allows a society to flourish, the alternative brings starvation, poverty and discontent. paul schmidt: advocates for self-government, davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive, johnson city, tn 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269 "freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people -- and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress." -- u.n. report 
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 top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans 10. institute a national sales tax to pay for the socialization of america's health care resources. 9. declare war on serbia. reenact the draft. 8. stimulate the economy with massive income transfers to democtratic 7. appoint an unrepetent socialist like mario cuomo to the suprmeme court. 6. focus like a laser beam on gays in the military. 5. put hillary in charge of the ministry of truth and move stephanopoulos over to socialzed health care. 4. balance the budget through confiscatory taxation. 3. remind everyone, again, how despite the democrats holding the presidency, the majority of seats in the house, and in the senate, the republicans have still managed to block his tax-and-spend programs. 2. go back to england and get a refresher course in european socialism. 1. resign, now! copyright (c) edward a. ipser, jr., 1993 be sure to look for: _slick willie's first very own book of top ten lists_ available soon in paperback. 
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 clayton cramer: but what came out, in much lower profile reporting, was that the "victim" was a prostitute, and the man had not paid her -- hence the false accusation. there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute, the defense merely alledged that she was. the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute, and the court apparently found this compelling. even clayton knows the difference. err, perhaps clayton doesn't know the difference. clayton does indeed know the difference. greg apparently doesn't. the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self-defense. no, the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof. because the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self-defense. got it, knucklehead? a small clipping from clarinews, under fair use guidelines: new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris-goodson ruled in the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the marines acted to cause injury. because, in part [repeat after me], "the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self-defense". hopefully, one of these days you will understand. interesting that in 2 of the 3 cases clayton does what he accuses others of doing. with respect to credibility, i would rate clayton cramer an order of magnitude higher than a) the news media, and b) homosexuals. but i never thought clayton was consistent. clayton is indeed consistent. and so are you. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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 [ these two paragraphs are from two different posts. in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve's meaning or misrepresent him in any way. i don't *think* i've done so. ] as noted in another thread (limiting govt), the problem libertarians face is insuring that the "limited government" they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda. it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams. just as marxism "fails" to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to "wither away," libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human [patrick's example of anti-competitive regulations for auto dealers deleted.] here's what i see libertarianism offering you: this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream, but basic human decency and common sense. a real grass-roots example of freedom and liberty. and yes, not having a few people acting as our masters, approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other, does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition. thanks awfully, let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues. as i've noted before, i'm not necessarily disputing the benefits of eliminating anti-competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers, barbers, etc. one need not, however, swallow the entire libertarian agenda to accomplish this end. just because one grants the benefits of allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his/her services without regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention. (as some/many libertarians would argue.) on a case by case basis, the cost/benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile. the libertarian agenda, however, does not call for this assessment. it assumes that the costs of regulation (of any kind) always outweigh its benefits. this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis, but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic, to say the least. i have no objection to an analysis of medical care, education, national defense or local police that suggests a "free market" can provide a more effective, efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through "statist" approaches. with some notable exceptions, however, i do not see such nitty-gritty, worthwhile analysis being carried out by self-professed libertarians. steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 : >unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form : >of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of : >recent works suggest. : which number is that? zero? the only time i have heard mention of such a mechanism is with respect to female homosexuality resulting from heterosexual childhood abuse. (and this as only one of several factors affecting the same person) as mr cramer appears to concentrate on male homosexuality i doubt this is what he has in mind. mark evans |evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 429 9199 (home) |evansmp@cs.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 359 6531 x4039 (office) | 
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 the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush. any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell. the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. had they expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one. so, you approve of the batf launching a 100-person raid, complete with flack jackets, men hidden in horse trailers, stun grenades, semi-auto weapons on peaceful citizens? who would also accept a search authoried by a court? there is still no proof that the branch davidians had illegal weapons. nothing else was in the jurisdiction of the batf, unless they were thought to have a still, or be smoking untaxed cigarettes. the automatic firearms violation is a tax matter ! you don't serve no-knock warrants on someone with .50 cal mgs. it isn't necessary (they can't flush a machine gun down a toilet, you know), and it isn't smart (if you are right, you got a good chance of getting blown away. if you are wrong, you shouldn't have done it.) the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police. the stupidity was indeed related to this. but the stupidity may have been to attempt to serve the warrant by ludicrously over-armed, over-protected and over-confident gestapo. escalation isn't automatically brilliant. it was a tax matter ! you can"t flush mgs down the toilet ! you don"t need no-knock warrants for everything. actually, imho nothing justifies them, but that is another argument . if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it. there wasn't any murder of police officers. there was probable cause to arrest them for murder perhaps. we us citizens are innocent until proven there also wasn't any killing until the batf screwed up real bad. phill hallam-baker lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). 
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 a few questions for janet reno: why don't you think generals have any place in law enforcement? if the atf/fbi had proof that koresh was: a child molester a child abuser a wife abuser sexual deviant (not a crime in all 50 states, yet) as well as illegally modify weapons why wasn't he simply arrested during one of his morning jogs? why did the allegations of child/wife/sex crimes only come out after the branch davidians repelled the initial assualt? was it because it became necessary to demonize david koresh? do you feel responsible for the deaths of over 80 people? how many would be alive to day if koresh had been arrested outside the compound? inquiring minds want to know. [although janet was installed after the siege began, her purge of the justice dept. leaves only her people in charge.] "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 well, the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself? i reckon *any* *man* would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners. if true, and if gays were the same as straights except for sexual preference, i would imagine that gays would have much less sex than straights because the available pool for dates is less than one-tenth what it is for straights. somebody correct (flame) me please! you miss the point. a lot more negotiation is needed to convince women to have sex because there is a big taboo about women being free with their sex. many of the women i know would do almost anything rather than be known as a slag, slut or whore. with men however there is *status* attached to being able to fuck constantly. and with gay men, where both partners can prove status through their constant verility then you are going to get a situation where there is a lot of sex. the difference is between het sex being rationed as a valuable commodity and gay sex being virtually unlimited due to the *appetites* of men. straights suffer a bottle neck where women are concerned, gay men who do not experience this bottle neck go to excess. mark walsh (walsh@optilink) -- uucp: uunet!optilink!walsh 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 19, 1993 statement of president clinton i am deeply saddened by the loss of life in waco today. my thoughts and prayers are with the families of david koresh's the law enforcement agencies involved in the waco siege recommended the course of action pursued today. the attorney general informed me of their analysis and judgment and recommended that we proceed with today's action given the risks of maintaining the previous policy indefinitely. i told the attorney general to do what she thought was right, and i stand by that decision. 
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 tfarrell@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (thomas farrell) said: a good case? a f**king good case? the defense lawyer asked the victim questions like "what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in?" and you think he made a good case????? speaking as someone who's only about six weeks and a $6,900 tuition bill away from becoming an unemployed slob with a law degree, i'd really like to see a transcript of this trial. i'd especially like to know what happened immediately after the defense attorney asked that question (assuming that the reports that he did so are accurate... i'm not accusing tom farrell of making anything up, but this _is_ the sort of case that spawns garbled misquotes, false rumors and urban legends like tribbles). it'd be nice to think that the prosecutor objected (irrelevant, prejudicial, inflammatory... take your pick) and that the judge upheld the objection. having watched most of the televised trial, i can answer that when such statements were made by the defense atty, the prosecutor did object, and the judge tended to sustain the ones that were obviously falling under the "self-incrimination" type of objection. there was quite a bit of meta-discussion during the trial over the use of graphic language, with most folks asking the judge if she wanted to hear the exact language. practically every time the defense tried to get the plaintiffs to "self-incriminate" by asking them such questions, there were objections and sustains. at one point the defense managed to get in a quip about "solicitation for a felony" and the judge herself said "sustained" before the prosecutor could get the objection stated. g. wolfe woodbury @ the wolves den, durham nc [this site is not affiliated ] wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us [with duke university! idiots!] uucp: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe <standard disclaimers apply> above all, we celebrate! --celebrate the circle, statement of purpose. 
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 janet reno killed the waco children. she is responsible for their deaths. she should resign immediately. she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked. all the warning signs were there and she ignored them. she provoked koresh into killing the children. aside from the fact that i disagree w/ you, she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer. she was willing to take responsibility, and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision. 
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 # #from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: # # male sex survey: gay activity low # note this contradictory title- gay activity low. not really. the percentage of gays was low. headline writers aren't noted for accuracy. # # a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough # # examination of american men's sexual practices published since # # the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 # # percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and # # 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. # #the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. # #the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. # #it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for # #straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically # #how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. # now let's take a quick look at what you are saying. # the median of a distribution is that variate-value which divides the # distribution halfway, i.e. 1/2 of the distribution (population) have # lower and half have higher variate-values. # so for males 20-39 the median=7.3, this means that half of these men # are higher than this and half are lower than this. now if the population # sample size is 3300, and 1% of them are gay, 33 males are gay. if we actually, 2% were either exclusively homosexual, or bisexual. you aren't readiing very carefully. # say they are distributed equally then only 16.5 are greater than 7.3 # sexual partners, of course, this means that 49.5% heterosexual men are # greater than 7.3. # interesting results. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # mr cramer- # you are on one hand condemning the news media as; # "the role of the national news media in inflaming passions" that # was your message subject i believe. # then you turn around and actually take; from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, # april 15, 1993, p. b2: # male sex survey: gay activity low title. # you even use such a title for the san jose mercury news- the murky news. # now which is it? are you going to comdemn national media, then turn around # and use it to support some position you present? seems somewhat contradictory # doesn't it. if you can show me that the press-democrat misrepresented the guttmacher institute's study, do so. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 clayton cramer, did you read this carefully? : it should not be assumed that we [nambla] agree with the specific agendas of each and every other participating group, nor should it be assumed that each and every other group supports our specific goals and ideals. yeah, just like you shouldn't assume that aryan nations supports genocide. who are they (and you) fooling? clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 : > from: elf@halcyon.com (elf sternberg) : bzzzzt. thank you for playing, but obviously you are not reading the : material as it is presented. according to the report i've got in my : hands, the newsweek article (which reported that "2 to 3 percent" of the : population is gay) used the criteria of "no heterosexual contact in the : past year." but at the same time, the university of denver study points : out, quite dramatically, that 60% of all self-identifying gay men have : > had some form of heterosexual contact in the past year. : i think the big mistake in that study must be that if one had had no sexual : contact of any kind in the previous year, they are counted as heterosexual. : even if they didn't intend it that way, that's how the figures are being used. could someone please post some date such as what questonnares where used and how they were distributed and returned. mark evans |evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 429 9199 (home) |evansmp@cs.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 359 6531 x4039 (office) | 
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 directly contradicted by the nejm study that compared crime in seattle and vancouver, b.c. the non-gun rates were roughly the same for both cities. the difference in violent crime rates was almost totally gun-related. and as was not pointed out in the study, but in critiques of it, (two seperate articles by james wright and david kopel come to mind) it was pointed out that the difference was *also* almost entirely minority related. that is, the gun crime rate skyrocketed for poor minorities (blacks and hispanics primarily) while when you compared the white majority they were virutally identical. many of the people who never read the nejm article believe that this critique is valid. in fact, the study explores the minority issue at length and cites studies to back up its contention that poverty, not minority "type", is the relevant factor in violence statistics. perhaps i failed to make myself clear: minorities in the u.s. *correlate* with poverty. this isn't good and we should address it, but we shouldnt' ignore that minorities and poverty *do* tend to go *does* vancouver have a consistantly poor population drawn along racial lines? if it doesn't, then assumptions of being able to compare minority vs. majority in both cities is questionable at best. post hoc ergo propter hoc. those areas implemented gun control because of the high rates. true only to a certain extent. take washington d.c., where gun control was instituted while it had crime problems true, but that crime proceeded to explode afterwards. similarly for new york. actually, i don't know whether any serious studies have been done for both cities. usenet-style statistical arguments are not very serious, usually involving people sitting by computers with the latest world almanac figures. i had heard of a study on washington, dc, that seemed to indicate a significant drop in gun-related violence there after the laws were implemented. i heard gary kleck comment on the radio that he thought the decline in suicide rates was related to the new laws, but he doubted their affect on other gun-related violence. i have never seen a report on the study, nor have any of my pro-gun friends had much to say about that report. remember, you can't just say that crime increases indicate a failure of the laws to affect crime rates. you don't know whether the *rate* of increase would have been different without the if the *rate* of increase over a period of several years remains unchanged, or increases, i think it's not a far jump to say that the laws are not effective. no, you can't sit down and say that things wouldn't have been worse. i don't have a crystal ball and neither do you. however, that road leads us to a place where it is impossible to critique *any* action. if it gets down to be, "it might have been worse without them," then there *is* no valid objection, which i'm sure would amuse certain people to no end. you don't know whether the laws prevented a threefold-increase or failed to stop a two-fold increase. so we've got a situation where we have several options: 1) the crime rate decreased: obviously gun control worked. 2) the crime rate remained the same: it would have been worse without gun control. 3) the crime rate increased: perhaps the laws prevented an even bigger increase. cute testing ground we've got. all responses support the proposition that gun control works. the question is this: did washington d.c. experiance an increase in its violent and/or gun crime rate which was greater than the pattern indicated prior to the implemented gun control laws. if it did, then the suggestion that the problem the gun control laws were designed to "control" did not exist in their entirety prior to the gun control laws. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 janet reno killed the waco children. she is responsible for their deaths. she should resign immediately. ( i agree ! ) she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked. all the warning signs were there and she ignored them. she provoked koresh into killing the children. i think the problem here is that mrs. reno strikes me ( after watching nightline last night ) as a person who is incapable of understanding or dealing with a great number of things. fact is that bill and hillary had to clear the decks for their "dream package" of "free stuff" for the american people (..their subjects...). they couldn't have a wild card floating around while they and robert "the fifth reich" reich plan the glorious "peoples democracy". that wouldn't fit in with their vision of themselves or whatyou should be "progressively" working for... after all, who do you think your'e working for... and if a handful of peasant children have to die for the glorious vision of "the year of the child" in america, its a small price to pay. let them eat cake.... 
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 fury of mother nature man's contribution to environmental "pollution" are paltry compared to those of nature. in her exceptional book trashing the planet, former atomic energy commision chairman dr. dixie lee ray notes based on the available data, atomic energy commision - hmm, they would say this. the earth may spew alot of substances into the atmosphere, but the quality of your toxic output can easily make up for the lack of quantity. furthermore, the planet is a system of carbon, sulfur and other chemicals which have been acting for billions of years, we are but newcomers to the system - we must adapt and control in order to bring about stability. also, two wrongs do not make a right, so continuing our practices despite overwhelming data is just ignorance in (non)action. los ninos many environmentalists attributed the 1988 drought in the u.s. to global warming, but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in educated and open minded environmentalists do not. < my opinions are not reflective of my employer - disclaimer > 
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 the word some sums it up, alot of scientist have concluded that without a doubt global climate will/is occur(ring) and should be dealt with by source reductions. this includes making sure that the "price" of fossil fuels reflects their "true costs". < my opinions are not reflective of my employer's. - disclaimer> 
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 janet reno killed the waco children. she is responsible for their deaths. she should resign immediately. she should have aside from the fact that i disagree w/ you, she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer. she was willing to take responsibility, and which is a helluva lot more than any republican attorney general ever did! btw, why all the crocodile tears over wasting a few religious nuts, who wanted to be wasted anyway? we just got back from wasting a few hundred thousand religious nuts over in the middle east, and everybody cheered!! 
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 i haven't recognized any names from previous discussions, but i do notice that there are a few who blame clinton for the actions of the batf in waco. unless you felt the same way about what we did under bush's *direct* command in panama, it's just partisan whining. which is what i expect most of it to be. i can see no way to condemn one and not the other. but i'm sure some limbot will tell me how killing thousands of panamanian civilians to serve an arrest warrant is much better than allowing 80 religious fanatics to commit suicide following a botched attempt by the batf to serve a search warrant. john viveiros (jviv@chevron.com) chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx 
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 on 20 apr 93 13:34:03 gmt, gary piatt observed: : first, the median does not imply that half of the men are : above and half below 7.3: it simply means that 7.3 is the mid-point : between the maximum number of partners and the minimum (which is most : likely zero). actually, the median *is* defined as the 50th percentile. if the median number of sexual partners for men is 7.3, it means that at least 50% of men have had 7.3 or fewer sexual partners, and at least 50% of men have had 7.3 or more sexual partners. (question: what is 0.3 of a sexual partner? :) to confuse matters more, take the following data set: [5.0, 6.0, 6.0, 7.0, 7.0, 7.3, 8.0, 9.0, 9.0, 9.0, 250.0] the mean (arithmetic average) of the above set of numbers is 29.4. the sample standard deviation is 73.2. the mode is 9.0. the median is 7.3. michael d. adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) enterprise, alabama "it's a strange quirk, but i hardly ever sing along with people who tie me up." -- mork 
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 clayton, babe, please define the word `molest`. are you using a legal term or a proper dictionary term? molest, as far as i can remember, means `to do damage to person(s)`. my mate, mike, was lured into a woman's parlour when he was 14. is that molestation? a number of my friends (straight) lost their virginity before that. were they 'molested'? they told me that they thoroughly enjoyed the experience. i see no please stop pushing your objective morality on others. if you push, people won't fall over and say 'ye gads, you're right!', they'll just push back. have you signed up for that logic course yet? yep -- and the child that "tree frog johnson" adbucted for 6 months reportedly "enjoyed" her experiences as well. they trained her using food. as an fbi agent reported (on his disciplinary action for beating up "tree frog") "when you see a 2&1/2 year old baby cheerfully tell you she wants a peanut butter sandwich and she'll suck your pee-pee, you lose control". you are quite sick. there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 on the other hand, rush made an interesting point: the democrats ran one of their best campaigns in years against a pathetic republican and a paranoiac and still only pulled 43% of the vote, lost 10 seats in the house, and gained 0 seats in the senate. 1994 might be pretty clueless of the world, take heart! 57% of the electorate is willing to vote for "a pathetic republican and a paranoiac"!! 
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 [some chump at brandeis:] i mean, how many people actually care how many people are gay (as long as you know how to find/avoid them if you want to)? i don't. if you don't care, why was so much effort put into promoting the 10% lie? because it was important to scare politicians into i wouldn't worry too much about it, though. we are starting to find out how politically impotent homosexuals really are. the colorado boycott has fizzled, slick willie was effectively prevented from implementing his military policy wrt homosexuals by members of his _own_ party, this new study casts a large shadow of doubt on their claims of large numbers, and coming this saturday they are going to wind up with _tremendous_ egg on their face when, i submit, no more than perhaps 35,000 queers will show up in washington while they are promising crowds in the millions. and most of the ones who will be there will look like act-up and queer nation, not the guy working in the next cubicle. as if that's really going to play in middle sigh. you're absolutely right. we have no political power whatsoever. therefore, we should be oppressed and ignored and denigrated, right? i certainly hope you don't have an so, sir, because if she heard how disparaging you are towards political minorities, and if she had any shred of self-respect, she'd be out the door. pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong. don't count on it, sweetheart. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | certainly not. most major universities wouldn't touch views that display the brainpower and the perspective of a mayfly with a ten-foot pole. p.s. incidentally, i think even mayflies could come up with more enlightenment than the above bullshit. evolve a bit, will you? ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 |> the batf should have left at the beginning, they should have looked at |>koresh's personality. instead they thought, "they have guns. we have bigger |>guns. let's go get 'em!" |> they botched it from day one. they shouldn't have been there in the |>first place. the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush. as you're no doubt aware, phill, there are probably five or six different, mutually contradictory versions of the events in waco on feb. 28 all of which are from reputable news sources, ranging the the associated press to time to newsweek. some of the earliest reports issued by the ap were not at all flattering the to batf, and produced some question as to who fired first. now, for all i know, you were there to witness it. but i kind of doubt that. any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell. the batf, in a letter they've been sending out to people, says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of surprise, and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it slammed in their faces. it strikes *me* as kind of strange to rely on surprise to serve a warrant by knocking on the door. there are at least questions that need to be answered. the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. this paranoid assertation was made by witnesses to the original assault who stated that the batf initiated hostilities by throwing concussion grenades and reported by the associated press. had they expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one. phill, the batf were in a firefight with the bd for *forty-five* minutes. i find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful citizens they *wouldn't* have shown up in live-stock trailers and would have retreated immediately. if they *were* expecting peacful citizens, why show up with over a hundred officers, some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying sub-machineguns, and *3* national guard helicopters? i don't know who did what, but, as i said, there are questions that need to be answered. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 i heard the other day that rush has gotten together with tammy faye baker. they were crawling in bed the other night and rush's feet brushed up against tammy's legs. "god! your feet are cold" she said. rush looked back at here and said, "tammy honey, i told you when we're alone you can just call me rush." ba dump bump! pishhhhh 
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 wow, i hadn't realized how venomous this was getting! be careful here...the problem isn't the rich but the values and the systems that make the rich rich. things are designed in such a way that in order to go with the system and make money, everything else we care about goes to shit. i have to constantly remind myself that the goal of human society is not to make money. money doesn't make us happy; it just prevents certain things making us more unhappy. therefore, don't shoot the rich. shoot the conservatives! ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 |>in article <1993apr17.161720.18197@bsu-ucs> 00cmmiller@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes |>>> how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives |>on |>>> the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that |>>> took a large amount of punishment and refused submit? oh yeah, did you watc |>h |>>> the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge |>>> the cops? sorry, the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to |even if rodney king had come out of that car waving a gun and they |managed to disarm him, the police still had no right right to beat |him senseless the way they did once he was on the ground. if they |can't handle their jobs, they should be relieved of them. they police did not beat king when he was on the ground. they beat him when he was on his knees trying to get back up. if you had watche d the entire video you would have seen this. |additionally, anna quindlan of the new york times said it best (paraphrase): |many people bring up what happened before what is shown on the tape. here's |what came before: the 80's, ronald reagan, george bush, racism,... if you think this is true, much less relevant, than you are in sadder shape than i thought. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 i want to know that i have a competent doctor when i am ill. government regulations have driven up costs and decreased quality by providing a monopoly for licensed m.d.s. many procedures could be performed by qualified nurses but doctors are forced to do them. the common cold must be diagnosed by a licensed doctor who is the only one who is allowed to write a perscription. doctor's are spending much of their time on such mundane cases that they cannot have the time to spend on the really tough cases. this results in higher cost, lower quality medical care. here in georgia, the state legislature in 1992 "accidentally passed a law lobbied for by opthamologists prohibiting anyone but a licensed md from giving shots. they were trying to limit optometrists from competing with they inadvertantly forbade nurses, emts, dentists, and tattoo artists from "piercing the skin." (probably diabetics too). the secretary of state's office announced on june 30th that they wouldn't enforce it pending reconsideration in the 1003 legislature. in the hassle over the state flag i heard nothing about repealing it. cutter@gloster.via.mind.org (chris) all jobs are easy to the person who doesn't have to do them. holt's law 
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 # #the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. # #the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. # #compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, # #and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that # #homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general # #male population. it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for # #straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically # #how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. # possibly because gay/bi men are less likely to get married? marriage isn't a requirement for a couple staying together. # what was the purpose of this post? if it was to show a mindless obsession # with statistics, an incredibly flawed system of reasoning, and a repellent # hatemonger agenda, then the purpose was accomplished with panache. # (a) get a clue. (b) get a life. (c) get out of my face. i'm not in yours. # ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! yes you are. when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me, by requiring me to hire, rent to, or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will, yes, you are in my face. until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me, i will be in your face about this. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 #the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was #presented as evidence that she was a prostitute, and the court #apparently found this compelling. ah, i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear, and they are not prostitutes. do they have a history of working in massage parlors, and telling co-workers there that they are prostitutes? do they frequent truck stop parking lots at 4:00 am, without id on any sort? -greg hennessy, university of virginia clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 |>|> in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive |>|> the words of a man who has just murdered 17 children and ordered the |>|> suicide/murder of his other 80 followers. according to the account given |>|> the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met |>|> by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them. the koresh/gun supporter |>|> claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up. if the |>|> aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier |>|> grade weaponry than standard issue handguns. for all practical purposes |>|> they were unarmed, the b-d followers had automatic weapons. |>|> the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire |>|> government story. this is simply rationalisation. it is not enough for |>|> them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent. that would require |>|> them to come up with a solution themselves. instead they have to come |>|> up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to |>|> set out to murder 80 people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them |>|> to get gun control legislation through. |>i must object to the characterization of those opposed to the |>government's handling of the waco situation as "gun supporters". |>your argument tries to paint the batf critics as right-wing |>gun nuts, and just mixes up two issues. |>i am one of the batf/fbi critics, and yet i am a liberal |>and just as anti-gun as you are. i just happen to believe |>that everyone has civil rights, even religious crazies. |>they're all human beings, not some nest of wasps that |>you're trying to exterminate. |>the batf created the crisis situation by the way they handled |>the original raid. it was well known that koresh regularly |>went jogging outside his property. he could have been served |>with a search warrant then. he could have been arrested if |>he had refused to comply. instead officers armed with grenades |>invaded the property. this escalated into a shooting war |>with tragic deaths on both sides. |>those were the first two mistakes: the bad judgment of |>asking for a no-knock warrant, and the bad and probably |>illegal way the already-unwise warrant was served. |>at this point, the situation escalated to where it was |>described as an armed standoff and a hostage crisis. |>that's when the government started covering their traces, |>sealing the warrant, revising their reported history of |>the incident, etc. |>things were already building up to disaster. now the |>government could have simply closed the supply routes |>and waited. but according to janet reno, that option |>had "never been seriously considered". so, supposedly |>because the agents were "frustrated and fatigued", and |>because there supposedly were no backups, they felt |>they had to go in. yes the govt handled it in the rambo hollywood type style with extreeme machismo. perhaps thats not the way to handle it is a completely different thing to start asserting as many have done that the government is primarily to blame. the comparisons with the nazis in particular are purely gratuitous. since you have provided a constructive opinion on the issue your post desreves to be taken seriously. peter nelson also made some very good points about how a low key approach might have been more effective. the point is though that you learn through mistakes. the govt played the wrong card and lost. thats not a big deal. they had had four guys murdered at the begining and maybee they just were not prepared for wuite this situation. who could be? if the same thing were to happen all over again we might perhaps be able to castigate the govt if they used the same tactics and failed in the same way. as it is i can't say that i would not have made the same mistake. maybee i wouldn't because i don't as a rule go in for a confrontational situation if i can avoid it. maybee i would because with all those press about its very difficult not to try the macho stuff. the fbi had information from within the compound we had no access to. they may have calculated that the b-d followers resolve was cracking based on their listening devices within the compound. they knew that koresh had chickened out of one suicide attempt. this may have been the reason why they considered that fear might have been a weapon for breaking his resolve. again in panama they had used the heavy rock music to great effect during bush's invasion. funny that few of the koresh supporters and appologists complain much about the death of several thousand pananmanian civilians while the us govt attempted to arrest their former ally. |>and please let's not turn this into a pro-gun vs. anti-gun |>discussion. anti-gun people do not believe that gun-owners |>deserve to get frontally assaulted by armed government |>agents. and koresh's civil rights exist whether his |>guns were legal, illegal, illegal-but-should-have-been-legal, |>or whatever! koresh negated his civil rights the minute his followers fired on the police helicopter. no matter whether the warrant was or was not technically valid the guys who were carrying it out thought that it was. thus the assault on them was completely inexcusable no matter what rationalisation people might wish to of course we have to consider the guns issue. that is the whole core of the question. everything else is a diversion. phill hallam-baker 
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 there is something terribly wrong, however, with a culture which condemns, attacks, and all too often kills any of its members who attempt to get an education. my mother is an elementary school teacher, and she tells me that she and her african american collegues are frustrated to tears by the fact that any african american child who attempts to do well in school and get an education is accused by his/her peers of "trying to be white", and is beaten, bullied, and tormented by them. it goes beyond each passing grade on a test earning a beating. in my mother's school, one of the most promising young students, who happened to be african american, had her throat cut by one of these young thugs. you know, you have a point here, but don't stop with african americans... when i was in high school in the early 1980s, on various occasions i had knives pulled on me, had friends who were stabbed, and i was beaten up repeatedly by those that couldn't accept me as different. and don't let the teachers off the hook either. on many many occasions, there were teachers that either resented me or were too scared out of their wits by the bullies to even stop the people who attacked me and they would just watch quietly... all of this was in a nice white middle class high school. in fact, we were so nice and white that we made sure that the one black kid in my class was unable to go to the prom with his white girlfriend... this isn't a race thing, it's the way public schools seem to be run... i'd hate to be in high school right now... at least i didn't have to deal with guns, just the roving psycho-drug-dorks and the jocks- without-a-future-but-with-plenty-of-testosterone... i'd separate everyone who wants to learn from these assholes... but hey, the valuelessness of learning and glorification of jocks is an american tradition, you think anything is going to change? if you have kids, take 'em out of the public school system and educate them yourself... that's what i'll do if i ever have them... i wouldn't wish what i went through upon any kid... maybe on some of their parents though... 
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 papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (paul prescod) said: sorry. reading this newsgroup i can't help but get the impression of frothing at the mouth lunatics. i get a lot of: [snip] c) constitution worshiping "it's right because it's in the constitution" as if the constitution wasn't framed by men, centuries ago in a totally different world. we have three options with respect to the constitution: 1. abide by it. 2. duly amend it. 3. abandon those parts of which a majority disapproves. of course, since the whole point of the constitution is to restrain the will of the majority, and since even in unfettered democracy we have nothing to fear from minorities, #3 amounts to abandoning the constitution altogether. which will it be? mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research, inc. is purely coincidental 
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 # actually, i was rather surprised to see an article on this subject # (i.e. the "new, inproved" survey saying that roughly 1% of men are gay) # on the front page of the new york _times_ recently (i think it was # on thurs, 15 april). the headline was something to the effect of # "new survey finds 1% of men are gay" # i was shocked, not because the new york _times_ was running a story # on a sex survey (although that was part of it), but because they thought # that this news was actually important enough to warrant front page space. # i mean, how many people actually care how many people are gay (as long as # you know how to find/avoid them if you want to)? i don't. if you don't care, why was so much effort put into promoting the 10% lie? because it was important to scare politicians into # -matt clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 the point is though that you learn through mistakes. the govt played the wrong card and lost. thats not a big deal. they had had four guys murdered at the begining and maybee they just were not prepared for wuite this situation. who could be? if the same thing were to happen all over again we might perhaps be able to castigate the govt if they used the same tactics and failed in the same way. as it is i can't say that i would not have made the same mistake. maybee i wouldn't because i don't as a rule go in for a confrontational situation if i can avoid it. maybee i would because with all those press about its very difficult not to try the macho stuff. my god, how many chances do they get? operation move (philedelphia, early 80's), black panthers (chicago, 1969), etc., etc. hell, we get heavily armed millenial cults out west every couple of years. do with have to start a cascade of times the feds have been in situations like this? dave griffith, information resources, university of chicago, biological sciences division dave@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu brain damage was what we were after. the chromosome damage was just gravy. 
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 |> gee, jim, if you'll check the constitution you'll find "in order to... |> promote the general welfare...do ordain and establish this constitution..." |> i'm surprised you missed it. it's right there in the first paragraph. i |> would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble. you almost got it right, and it was a good try, but you should follow your own advice. the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble. it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law. that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language - witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land. do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to "promoting the general welfare" to be within the limits of the constitution? sorry, buddy, but some other "blowhards" managed to include the "general welfare" in another portion of the constitution. article i section 8: "the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes...to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states..." i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble. ...but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i, section 8, i guess you'll grant that botha are constitutional functions. right? james madison, federalist paper 41: "it has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare... "no stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the congress been found in the constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; ... but what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? ... nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 |>>the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked |>>assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish. had they |>>expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who |>>would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up |>>in a tank and broken the door down on day one. |>this is stupid. that is no paranoid assertion, it is testamony from surviving |>witnesses, and the batf _has_ no tanks, nor am i aware of either the batf _or_ |>the fbi using any until yesterday. when they use maximum force they do just |>what they did that first day that got four officers killed. these surviving witnesses being members of which cult pray tell ?? |>>the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by |>>ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police. |>"underarmed"? you flabberghast me, they were loaded for bear and every |>picture shows them wearing bullet-proof vests! they were using concussion |>grenades and full-auto weapons, what was missing low-yield tac-nukes? this |>is a transparent attempt to retcon a justification for the ridiculous amount |>of force used, both initially and yesterday. you should be ashamed. we were having a discussion about whether bush would have done anything differently. on the basis of panama, grenada, tripoli, kewait etc we decided that bush would have asked for a surgical airstrike or used a cruise missile, some people suggested that he would have used the nuke warhead cruise, others pointed out that he would be too cheap to use 'em. what was missing? armoured vehicles! |>>if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing |>>the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could |>>hear it. |>they _had_ a sure-fire method: keep them bottled up and talk them to death or |>surrender without giving him justification for some looney-tune religious |>stunt. |>phil, i've been reading your postings for months and i'm convinced that you |>will back anything, no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone |>else's rights if you think it will hurt people you don't like. it's people |>with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the holocaust, a process |>that is in place _now_ in this country, even if the tattered, pitiful remains |>of the constitution is slowing its progress. this isn't a libertarian issue, |>others may argue that line, but from a strictly constitutional view of a |>democratic gov't, what the fbi and batf did was wrong, wrong, wrong, even if |>their _reasons_ for trying to arrest koresh were 100% right. _anything_ that |>leads to the deaths of 17 children, if nothing else touches your stoney |>heart, is _wrong_ no matter who pushed the button. for god's sake, man, get |>your morality back. the person who murdered 17 children was koresh. he kept them there and brought about their deaths deliberately. you may consider that i am a complete bastard and a not very nice chap. thats quite true. i don't pretend to be. being nice is what amateurs try to do. if you want to talk politics you are talking hard decisions such as whether the lives of the troops should be risked attempting to rescue the children. anyone who has held the office of president of the united states since fdr has held the threat that if the usa or its allies were to be threatened then the usa would risk nuclear holocaust in order to protect freedom. beleive it or not, that is not the sort of threat that nice chaps make. do they have a gun nutters section of the us version of cnd by any chance? there are cases where society has to be protected from madmen such as koresh or hitler. if it were not for the consideration of the 17 children in there the question of the tactics to be used would not be a matter of anything but academic significance. it is not for the govt to prevent people from commiting mass suicide. the latest reports are that cult members were shot attempting to leave the compound by koresh loyalists during the fire. if proven that would entail the final nail in the coffin of those who want to promote koresh as some sort of role model or hero. i need hardly add that it is koresh that has created the holocaust in this case by the deliberate arson of the ranch appocalypse. phill hallam-baker 
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 here is a press release from the american federation of teachers. hhs secretary shalala to address aft's paraprofessional and school-related personnel conference to: national and assignment desks, education writer contact: jamie horwitz of american federation of teachers, 202-879-4447 news advisory: secretary of health and human services donna shalala will speak to the 16th annual aft paraprofessional and school-related personnel conference at 8 p.m., friday, april 23, at the washington hilton. shalala will discuss hhs's agenda for helping children over the next four years. aft's paraprofessional and school-related personnel division includes school workers such as paraprofessionals and teacher aides, school bus drivers, school secretaries, school custodians and maintenance workers and school food service workers. more than a thousand school employees will attend the conference which is being held at the washington hilton, april 23-25. most of the school workers attending the conference come from urban school districts where child health and nutrition, welfare reform and the availability of head start and other preschool programs are major workshops scheduled for the conference include sessions addressing issues around reauthorization of chapter 1; how paraprofessionals and school-related personnel, especially minority men, can serve as student role models; the increasing problem of school violence; dealing with abused children; and assisting children with serious health problems. for a complete conference schedule, contact jamie horwitz at 202-879-4447. the american federation of teachers represents 805,000 elementary and secondary teachers, paraprofessionals and school-related personnel, higher education faculty, nurses, state and municipal workers. -30- canada remote systems - toronto, ontario 416-629-7000/629-7044 
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 in a previous article, garrett@ingres.com (grep a friend) says: went to the post office on friday, got my passport apps in. my savings have already been converted. gosh. does this mean i'm not invited to the next white house "barbecue" ? the real difference between you and i, garrett, is that *i* knew when it was time to leave l.a. :) 
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 i'm not saying i'm satisfied with the outcome, it's very upsetting. you are simply blaming the wrong person. oh are we jill? let me tell you a story then... one evening not long in this country a man, a parolee, a convicted known violent crimminal lead police on high speed chase after breaking another law. he decided that police had no right to do their jobs and enforce the law and assualted two of while attempting to resist arrest. when police use metal sticks to force him into submission we heard all the reason why certain people in this country have and excuse when they refuse to obey the law, how this was a perfect example of police oppression, how all the police had to do was behave a certain way and all would have been finei, how nothing the victim did could have possibly warranted the response - some blows with a few sticks - he got from the authorities. funny, how when it's bloodbath billy or his hitwench calling the shots, a group of people who were bothering no one, were not know to have broken any law, who asked only that they be left alone to practice their religion as they fit, how it is now that the government is justified in assualting those people with 100 heavily armed commandos simply because the gun grabbers in dc thought these people had more guns thay they thought they should have. now when it's the clinton administration that has the blood of dozens on its hand aaaall of a sudden it's the people who refused to have their civil rights violated, it's their fault, those evil fanatics provoked it... how is it in the mind of the liberal democrat-clinton supporter that a crimminal puke, scum bag, piece of garbage like rodney king could not have possibly provoked the beating he got, but this bunch of wierdos could cause a fifty one day stand off that ended with the burning deaths of all of them and their children, all by themselves with no help from the the police. and to here people say they deserved what they got, to hear clinton say the blame rest solely with koresch, what a cowardly piece of work that man has shown, again, himself to be. we're blaming the right people. it is you and others that defend any of the actions of the batf, fbi or justice department in this matter, that with each word prove again and again the depth of the hypocrisy, the double standard that people like the clintons would hold certain americans to. while at the same time allowing others to do as they please with only excuses to offer their victims. it's all to clear these days, from the comments of the "president" and the rationalizations of his supporters in these groups, that in a liberal democratic vision of america only a certain select few people can expect to have civil rights enforced, and this administration intends to enforce laws, apply the constitution and obey the laws only when it suits them to do so. the rooster warning! by order of heir clinton and for your own personal safety: remember to maintain membership in only batf approved religious organizations. batf approved religious services. 
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 as far as "set the moral tone" is concerned, if a community does not collectively want to put up with prostitution going on in front of their kids, why should they have to? if a community does not want to see proliferation of drugs among their kids, why should they have to? by what right? and do tell, from the standpoint of the drug dealer or prostitute, what is the difference if the gun is pointed by the local hick city council or the feds? if something is wrong, it is wrong. period. if it is not sustainable at a federal level why should it be ok just because the geographical unit is smaller? peter nelson posted a very eloquent response to this point in talk.politics.misc, so i need not consume more bandwidth here. the problem with the egalitarian view is that it tries to deny the fundamental dilemma of democratic government: the people have a right to exercise a voice in their community, yet individuals have the right to be left to themselves. this is a serious dilemma precisely because there is not much that takes place in a vacuum. you are seriously misusing the word egalitarian. you should look the word up before you use it. there is a vast difference between equal justice under the law and egalitarianism. what i meant, if it was not clear, was the intersection set of liberal and libertarian philosophies of "natural rights" and how the government (and constitutional interpretation in particular) fits into that philosophy. this philosophy engages in the very serious practical error of endowing the nine lawyers on the supreme court with an almost totalitarian authority, completely outside of the consent or consensus of the people. this is why supreme court nominations are such amazing political fist-fights these days, because he who controls the court rules the country. the people on the court may well be trying to do the best job they can, but they are at best a benevolent oligarch, even if you approve of every supreme court decision ever. eventually, an oligarch will arise that will decimate that which you hold dear. try supreme court cases by jury, and the problem would be mitigated a great those who would create broad, non-enumerated government powers at any level (as in european parlamentary democracies and the current de-facto standard in the u.s.) have essentially engaged in the same fundamental mistake, except that it is some different body that has the totalitarian, virtually unchecked (except by plurality election, death, or retirement), government power. and *why* should your community be allowed to stop my activities when i'm not picking your pocket or defrauding you? just because you don't like it? because you find it morally repugnant? this is like asking why the wind blows, unless you can prove that the fact of your engaging in certain activities has absolutely no effect whatsoever on any other human being who has not consented to your engagement in those activities. very few human activities indeed fit into this category. even for those few that do, who would you empower to make the judgement of what is and is not a fully autonomous activity? who defines "picking my pocket" and "defrauding"? are economic assets a person's only assets, or are peace of mind, stability, confidence in a child's emotional environment, security, and many other things not also a part of a person's assets? what gives you the right to create a moral environment that a parent strongly objects to? what gives you the right to create an environment of social unrest and instability? if you say that what you do does not have those effects, by what authority do you say that? who is empowered to make these value judgements? would *you* feel if i got a gang together and found xtianity (or insert your favorite cause here) morally repugnant and passed laws to outlaw its free exercise? (all at a local level, since that seems to be a-ok with you) if the federal constitution explicitly prohibited you from doing so, the federal government would prevent you from doing so. if it did not, and you could muster enough local support to pass an amendment to the local constitution (by, say, a 3/4 majority) empowering the local government to do so, then i would have to vote with my feet and move to a neighborhood more friendly to my own system of values. this is not an ideal situation, but it is far better than the mess we are mired in right now. as to the "gang of pitchfork and torch wielding friends", there are very few restrictive local laws that i personally would advocate or vote for, since i am of the view that exercising government power over your neighbors should be done with extreme care and only when absolutely necessary. but i do believe in protecting children from victimization by people who have callous disregard for the effects they have on others. i would certainly leave a "well-behaved" massage parlor alone, so long as it had no detrimental effects on the neighborhood. you just don't get it. the debate is not whether you or a communitity would or would not vote away my rights; it is the propriety of whether that should even be an *option*. when you define "rights" very broadly, there is no practical choice about whether people will or will not infringe upon your rights since these "rights" overlap. even when rights are defined very narrowly, the government has been empowered to prevent others from infringing on your rights. the fundamental question is, by whose authority is that power created. if you support the current situation with a "natural rights" supreme court (rather than an "original understanding" supreme court or, even better, supreme court by jury), you are consenting to having nine lawyers in washington, d.c. create those powers out of the air. in my "fractal federalism" scenario, it is a broad consensus of the people (i.e. the amendment process) that creates those powers. certainly not the only cause, mike, but people in a local neighborhood should have a voice in what goes on in that neighborhood. to deny this is to create another concentrated centralized power to keep the locality from abusing its power [!!!] you mean that horrific centralized power, the individual? no, i mean the federal government that comes trucking in with guns to tell the locals how to run their neighborhood. waco, tx is a nice example. -- in essence, using a pit bull to keep a toy poodle from biting your leg. chances are, the pit bull is going to turn on you some day, and you have much less defense against it than you do against the toy poodle. ideally, everyone would leave everyone else alone and no government coercive power of any kind would be necessary. this will never work, because people are different and by their nature they will always want to force their views on others. if this were not the case, nobody would try to force their view that murder is wrong on anyone else. fine. when they force their views on others prosecute them. until then leave them alone. this is such a simple concept. how do you feel about speech codes? hate speech certainly *could* be considered an indication that the "pit bull is going to turn some day". should the "community" be allowed to limit it too? if not, why not? if you create a community where public masturbation is permitted in the cause of "personal autonomy", have you done anything different? what precisely are these autonomous activities you are referring to? if you list them, perhaps we can get enough people to agree that they are truly autonomous and pass a constitutional amendment protecting them. and how do you feel about david koresh? did he deserve it? should the batf (or a local version of same) be allowed to toss him in jail just because they *think* he's off his rocker? the koresh incident appears to be a horrendous abuse of government power, power possibly illegitimately obtained through a means i would abolish. the constitutionality of "no-knock" warrants seems very dubious to me, not to mention the mere existence of batf and the government's propensity to ignore the word "infringe" in the second amendment. this power is upheld by the same body, with its incredible concentration of power in the hands of nine people, that has upheld much so-called "civil rights" (read- affirmative action) legislation despite the fourteenth amendment. who said anything about the public till? get rid of it, and get out of my face. i agree about getting rid of the public till. are you still sure you don't want to come over for coffee? you might not especially like my neighborhood, and i might not especially like yours, but at least we can agree to let each other live the kind of life we want to. at the point you get rid of the public till, you lose all credibility as to *why* you should have a say about my private affairs. are you sure you are ready for that? money is certainly not the only asset i have in this world. if it were, this would be a bleak existence indeed. michael thomas (mike@gordian.com) matt freivald liborgalism: thinking is irrelevant. integrity is irrelevant. free speech is irrelevant. private property is irrelevant. personal responsibility is irrelevant. conservativism is futile. you will be assimilated. these are my opinions only and not those of my employer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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 in a previous article, pyotr@halcyon.com (peter d. hampe) says: the military's mission is to kill the enemy before they can escape or surrender. yes, so? you still haven't explained why they can't be used to enforce civil law. they certainly would have done a better job of koresh. just call in an air strike. pyotr@halcyon.com sometimes pyotr filipivich, sometimes owl. optimist: bagpiper with a beeper. 
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 # #from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: # # male sex survey: gay activity low # # a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough # # examination of american men's sexual practices published since # # the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 # # percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and # # 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. # # the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday # # by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than # # the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional # # wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. # 1) so what? homosexuals lie about the 10% number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation. put up or shut up. where is your evidence? show a study indicating a link between liking >>grown ups<< of the same sex and liking children. saying that 30% of molested children are male shows nothing since it tells you nothing of the molesters preference in adults (if they have any at all). they also lie about "10%" to keep politicians scared. the politicians will have plenty to be scared of in one week be it 1% or 90%. # 2) it will be interesting to see the reaction when 2.5million queers # gather in washington dc. after all if there are only 6million of # us then this is an event unprecidented in history... but many of the people who will be marching aren't homosexuals, but other members of the leftist agenda. i'm sure there will be a few non queers, but the vast majority are ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? firstly, they could have backed off. regardless of who was at fault in the first assault (the one in which four atf officers died), once that was over backing off was no longer an option. the people inside, particularly koresh, were criminal suspects. they could have made a case of self-defense, if they wanted, in a court of law. until then the police had the responsibility to capture and arrest them. i've never heard of a case where the police knew there was a criminal suspect in a building, and still decided to back off. continuing the siege was one of the few alternatives to what actually took place, and it's a matter of debate whether any of these would have ended any better. how about letting in the press? how about letting koresh out to talk to the press? maybe if he had been allowed to talk with the press/tv for a couple of days he would have surrendered peacefully. how about letting the relatives of koresh`s followers talk? seems to me when you isolate someone, try to send them crazy by playing loudspeakers through the night of tibetan chants, etc., you don`t have much to stand on when they behave as if they are crazy. (i`m not too sure of their sanity to start with.) i am very suspicious when the government controls all communication, and sends the press 2 miles away. i have a gut feeling that no-knock warrant, which is sealed, would not stand up to scrutiny. i don`t think no-knock warrants are what the constitution writers had in mind when they gave us rights against improper search and seizure. i don`t think an all-powerful central, high-taxing government was what the constitution writers had in mind when it delagated rights to the citizens and states and restricted central government. 
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 in a previous article, demon@desire.wright.edu (not a boomer) says: evidently it was janet's concern for the babies being slapped by koresh that made her give the go-ahead for the ram-n-gas tactics. :( larry king live was both telling and sickening. every other word out of janet reno's mouth was "the little children" ,etc. sounded like clinton talking. she made claims that the children were beaten, etc, despite the pronouncements of social workers that none of the children who left the compound were abused. but the real crime: larry king, and his censored show. not one fucking question about reno's possible error. just two calls about how she had made a "good decision". now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people are going to be upset. nope. no real questions at all. 
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 in a previous article, ed@wente.llnl.gov (ed suranyi) says: this, too, is ridiculous. in no way can the provoker be considered to have played more than an exceedingly minor role. a person who kills is ultimately responsible for his own actions. frankly, i'm sick of being lied to. it was bad before clinton, and now it's worse. here, listen to ricks' ( fbi ) words, one-half hour before the fire: " come out with your hands up. this matter is now over. " now, i hear ricks ( and reno ) claiming that this was just "another incremental step in pressure". more bullshit. why did they pick 6 am monday morning? so nobody would notice. so everyone would be busy at work, starting a new week. more bullshit. did the fbi hold back fire engines? here, let me paraphrase sessions" " no, we didn't hold back the engines. we had them on stand-by, blah, balh, blah... and so, to protect the the fireman, we didn't allow the engines to enter until it was safe " what the fuck is this? " yes, we have no bananas? " what the hell kind of double-talk is this? no, we didn't, so blah, balh, we did. huh? i watched this. clinton takes responsibility, "even though" it wasn't his decision. more bullshit. does he, or does he not, take responsibility?! no more "even though" bullshit. yes. or no. ed@wente.llnl.gov 
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 janet reno killed the waco children. she is responsible for their deaths. she should resign immediately. she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked. all the warning signs were there and she ignored them. she provoked koresh into killing the children. aside from the fact that i disagree w/ you, she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer. she was willing to take responsibility, and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision. the fact that reno is actually taking responsibility (gee--that's a new one for a politician) is a new thing for a member of clinton's administration. i actually respect her for having a backbone ( i never thought i'd say that about someone from that bunch). the way i understand what happened is that she discussed with clinton what was being planned for waco. clinton didn't say no, so gave de facto approval for the operation. things got messed up, and a lot of people died horrible deaths. (if i am incorrect about this, please feel free to correct it. this is just what i've been able to pick up.) i've just got a couple of questions about this whole thing. (1) why did the government feel they needed to assault that compound? (2) why didn't they try to flush them out in the first week of this fiasco instead of waiting 50 days. (3) janet reno jumped up to take responsibilty to take heat away from the president. does this sound anything like what a couple of reagan's aides did? --aaron 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? first of all, i wouldn't have gone after the davidians for a firearms violation which i object to in the first place. second, i wouldn't have executed a search warrant via an armed assault when all the davidians were sure to have been there. third of all, i wouldn't have cut off all outside communication to koresh. and i certainly wouldn't have gone in with a tank-- time was on the fbis side. since they had outside resupply, they could wait indefinitely. matthew t. russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu some news readers expect "disclaimer:" here. just say no to police searches and seizures. make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) 
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 critisism is too easy. what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months? 1. withdraw 2. leave the people in the compund to lead their lives as they choose. 3. prosecute the baft agents for murder brandon hutchison,university of canterbury,christchurch new zealand cheers brandon. that's the best suggestion i have seen that. !!! seeeeee ya turmoil@halcyon.com 
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 |>>any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare |>>a private state has drifted into anarchy. there are laws to control |>>the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that |>>they were being violated. they set out to obtain a legal warrant and |>>attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang |>>the doorbell. |> the batf, in a letter they've been sending out to people, |>says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of |>surprise, and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it |>slammed in their faces. |> it strikes *me* as kind of strange to rely on surprise to |>serve a warrant by knocking on the door. presumably the b-d did not mount a continuous state of alert with gunmen ready to fire on people who casually walked up to ring the doorbell. let's try that again: why was the batf concerned about surprise when they intended to serve the warrant by knocking on the door? the batf appears to be inconsistant in their own description of events. and in any case, how does one mount an ambush if one isn't "on alert?" |>>had they |>>expected the b-d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who |>>would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up |>>in a tank and broken the door down on day one. |> phill, the batf were in a firefight with the bd for *forty-five* |>minutes. i find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful |>citizens they *wouldn't* have shown up in live-stock trailers and would |>have retreated immediately. not a smart move. unless meant to be part of the surprize cover. even so the narrow opening of the trucks simply was not a good idea. a side opening truck would have been much better, more like a covered waggon. so, were the batf fired on before or after they left the trailers to knock on the door to serve the warrant? every description i've heard indicates the batf did not hang around in the trailers once they decided to open them up. for that matter, if they expect peaceful citizens, why come in live- stock trailers to being with? |> if they *were* expecting peacful citizens, why show up with over |>a hundred officers, some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying |>sub-machineguns, and *3* national guard helicopters? sounds just about right to me. its the minimum amount of force that i would consider necessary to serve a warrant on the talk.politics.guns annual dinner. ok, just to make sure we've got this straight: you consider armed troops in disguised vehicles and multiple helicopters to be used to serve search warrants on peaceful citizens. (and just so we don't have one of those entertaining shifts, *you* described them as the batf expecting them to be, peaceful.) michael hesseltine ordered the use of over 5000 crack troops including members of the parachute regiment to remove approx 250 hippy peace protestors on a site where they wanted to install cruise missiles. he even turned up in a flack jacket to monitor the proceedings. just about the most dangerous tool the women possesed was a tin opener. that single action probably cost him the position as prime minister. one of the elders of my church got arrested in that heroic action by the forces of toryism. hesseltine ever after was something of a national joke. i don't see how past abuses excuse present ones. hell, you're not even discussing the same government. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 fury of mother nature clearly, man has a long way to go to match nature as a "despoiler" of the bullshit. how many lakes have ceased to be able to support life from purely natural pollution? man has already done this to scores of lakes. also, much of the "degredation" you cite was done by cows and pigs. and why do think there are so many cows around? could it be.......cause people raise them? legalize freedom 
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 fury of mother nature clearly, man has a long way to go to match nature as a "despoiler" of the bullshit. how many lakes have ceased to be able to support life from purely natural pollution? man has already done this to scores of lakes. also, much of the "degredation" you cite was done by cows and pigs. you have perhaps heard of the dead sea. i may be wrong, but i believe it is not misnamed. and i don't believe that humans had a hand in it, although it is possible since the great cedar forests of lebanon were but a memory by the time of christ if not earlier. but, more on the point, while nature is the may be the more prolific "despoiler", man is certainly the more creative. we have to our credit pesticides and heavy metals, not to mention radioactivity, which is so wonderfully persistent and fatal (not that we invented radioactivity or heavy metals, we only concentrated them so that they would be a more lethal threat). in general i find mr. bacon's arguments rhetorical, devoid of sense, and therefore trivial. btw, is there any reason this discussion is on phl.misc? so long, 
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 statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday, april 17 to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania, where it would create as many as 3,818 *would*? ha haaaa haa ha haaa how the hell can they come up with a number, specified to the units column, on something as complicated as this? face it, it's the perceptions that matter here, folks, not the facts. especially this one: full time jobs and up to 21,240 summer jobs. he will make a according to the pittsburgh post-gazette, that means over 7200 new jobs for allegheny county (metro pgh) alone! haaaa haaa ha ha haaa heh heh haaaa <snif> doing what? i hope it's fixing the potholes on my street. let's face it, folks, we're in a depression and this is the wpa. clinton's really coming here to beat on sen. arlen specter, who happens to be vacationing in africa (don't know whether to laugh or cry) ** casimir j. (casey) palowitch - in 1996, there will be two kinds ** ** slavic cataloger - of computer professional : those ** ** u. of pgh. library systems - who know nextstep, and those ** ** cjp+@pitt.edu - without jobs. ** 
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 in a previous article, smith@phoneme.harvard.edu (steven smith) says: with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new ``free'' social programs, i've really begun to suspect that the canadians, long resentful of their place in the american shadow, brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some hey, he has been talking with mulroney a lot, huh? 
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 ahhh, remember the days of yesterday? when we were only going to pay $17 / month? when only 1.2% of the population would pay extra taxes? remember when a few of us predicted that it wasn't true? :) remember the inaugural? dancing and singing! liberation at last! well, figure *this* out: 5% vat, estimated to raise $60-100 billion per year ( on cnn ) work it out, chum... $60,000,000,000 / 125,000,000 taxpayers = $480 / year but, you exclaim, " i'll get free health care! " but, i exclaim, " no, you won't! " this is only for that poor 37 million who have none. not for you, chum. :) that comes later. add in the estimates of the energy tax costs - $300-500 / year plus, all that extra "corporate and rich" taxes that will trickle down, and what do you have? $1,000 / year, just like i said two months ago. and, the best part? you don't get anything for it. deficit is still projected to rise at same rate it's been rising at, by clinton's own estimates. and this assumes that his plan will work! i mean, come on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in another 2 or 3 years, we're getting another whopping tax increase, because the deficit will still be growing faster than the economy. all clinton is doing, is moving us to a higher diving board. face it. clinton is bush x 2. in four more years, our country will be completely bankrupt, and your children's future, so oft mentioned by pal bill, will be gone. and those of you still deluding yourselves will be faced with the guilt. well, <glancing at watch>, gotta go. i want to be out of here by noon. got an appointment at the lake. no tax there, yet. 
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 (broward horne) says: in a previous article, mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu (mark 'mark' sachs) says: (broward horne) says: it sure does appear that way, doesn't it? the attitude that people are stupid if they don't agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life. free advice, there. whew. mark, what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a "success", particularly now when i'll just the hell taxed out of me? oh, this is excellent. that was hardly the point, was it? i was commenting on this all-too-common republican attitude that if people disagree with us, they must be idiots, they must be sheep being led around by the evil liberal media conspiracy. this is a dangerous attitude indeed. because it's not a very big step from "people are sheep, they can't think for themselves" to "people are sheep and need firm leadership from we, who know better"... this sort of attitude makes me worry about what'll happen to the united states if the extremist wing of the republican party ever gets back into power again. holy christ! :) hey! this is a government-funded newsgroup! let's have some separation of church and state, damn it! besides, let's <ahem> examine the record, shall we? broward: " clinton's going to taxe the holy fuck out of you! " mark: " no, he's not. only $17 / month " ( i still get a laugh out of this one! :) ) more like: broward: "clinton's going to raise your income taxes by over $1000!" mark: "no, he's not, only about $204." broward: (silence) want some more "free predictions" ? ok, i predict that in 1996 the republicans will still be bitter. yeah, yeah, i know, it's not very impressive to predict things that are inevitable... "...so i propose that we destroy the moon, neatly solving that problem." [your blood pressure just went up.] mark sachs is: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu disclaimer: if psu knew i had opinions, they'd try to charge me for them. 
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 : oh, and btw, its william jefferson blythe clinton. : regards, : steve. no, it's not- and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult. do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing? yes, it is -- you could look it up. and spare us the thin-skinned indignation, please; what's sauce for four years of using george herbert walker bush and j. danforth quayle as an insult is sauce for william jefferson blythe clinton. do you feel that calling a president by his full name implies some sort of disrespect? hint: this is a rhetorical question. paul havemann (internet: paul@hsh.com) * they're not just opinions -- they're caffeine for the brain! * ** (up to 50 milligrams per cynical observation.) ** recommended minimum daily requirement: 1,000 mg. keep reading. 
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 the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. isn't is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed (imho) source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men. it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well. in my opinion, orientation has nothing to do with it. i don't understand what you are getting at here. if the chances of promiscuity are larger, yet the rate of promiscuity is lower in the heterosexual community, doesn't that imply that the homo/bi sexual population is then even more promiscuous than the raw statistics imply? (no axe to grind here i'm just a scientist and i hate to see statistics abused.) men are men and they all like sex. i am a gay male. i have had sex three times in my life, all with the same man. before that, i was a virgin. i am a hetero man and have had sex with one woman in my life (my wife). it is very pleasing to me to be able to say that. i hope you have the same feeling as i do. i also wish that you could (if you wanted) experience the joys and trials of being committed to someone for life (there is something about marriage that makes the commitment much greater than one might expect). so... whose promiscuous? just because someone is gay doesn't mean they have no morals. just because someone is heterosexual doesn't mean they do. look at the world.... statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero... don't forget about the culture. sadly, we don't (as a society) look upon homosexuality as normal (and as we are all too well aware, there are alot of people who condemn it). as a result, the gay population is not encouraged to develop "non-promiscuous" relationships. in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships. it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral. "my, if we allowed gays to marry, raise children ... we might just find out they're as moral as we are, can't have that can we?" just some thoughts. flame away. :) 
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 |>think about it -- shouldn't all drugs then be legalized, it would lower |>the cost and definitely make them safer to use. |i think so. and i don't use drugs, outside of the legal ones (alcohol |and coffee). i'm addicted to chocolate myself. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package. it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids. immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done. the problem is not the cost, it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done. i don't know where you live, but this is not the case nationawide. perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so, but in my area and most areas where i know people, immunizations cost $$$. nationwide, the immunization rate among toddlers is about 50%, but it is reportedly as low as 10% in some inner-city neighborhoods. i bet more than 10% kids living in such neighborhoods are already covered by medicaid. here in massachussets, we have had a universal immunization program, the kind of clinton seems to be proposing, for many years (two decades?). mass' immunization rate is 65%. what about the other 35%? i guess some parents are indeed too ignorant or too lazy , or simply do not sorry to shatter your stereotypes. in case you haven't noticed, clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program. "access" here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 when are you going to admit that the data you presented show just this---that only about 3% of child molesters are gay, and thus are not overrepresented with respect to the general incidence of homosexuality? when someone can show something besides a redbook article. correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this irrelevant? either the data shows something, or it doesn't. regardless of what other studies show. admit it. what you showed to us doesn't prove that gay men are more likely to be molesters. kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (hot young star) astronomy dept, boston university, boston, ma 02215. true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self. 
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 : the selective service registration should be abolished. to start with, the : draft is immoral. whether you agree with that or not, we don't have one now, : and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior : with a volunteer army than with draftees. finally, the government has us : on many lists in many computers (the irs, social security admistration and : motor vehicle registries to name a few) and it can find us if it needs to. : maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time. : let's axe this whole department, and reduce the deficit a little bit. i'm really surprised clinton hasn't already tried to do this. he seems to want to tackle other irrelevant issues first, so why not this one as well. considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it (he admits it) the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on. let me say this about that, as a retired navy officer; i agree. cut it. but let's not stop there. eliminate the c-17 transport. wrong. we need its capability. sure it has its problems, very few airplanes haven't, but getting rid of something we need is not the answer. what do you want to do, start over a rebuild a new airplane from scatch? it'll have its problems as well and there will be calls again, for it to be scrapped. the other option is to try to extend the life of the c-5s and c-141s that are getting extremely old. if you read aviation week, the c-5 line can be reopened and the c-5s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program. politically, though, the c-17 is popular pork. scrap the seawolf ssn-21 nuclear submarine. ground the b-2 stealth bomber. it'll cost jobs, but i'm for it. we especially don't need a b-2. the ssn-21, i know litttle about. agreed. congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf. the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with. the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to 40 (navy times) and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class. politically, general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not. in addition, more bases need to be closed. probably long beach naval station and others. the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of 320 ships. the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress. -- marc mueller 
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 speaking of vat: did anyone see cnn's report yesterday (4/15)? it was quite hillarious (no pun intended). they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing, graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage. when they got to the final stage (the actual retail sale) the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be "the amount paid by consumers." in other words, they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load. these are not journalists--they're lap dogs. roger shouse the university of chicago email: shou@midway.uchicago.edu 
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 well, it seems the "national sales tax" has gotten its very own cnn news logo! cool. that means we'll be seeing it often. man, i sure am glad that i quit working ( or taking this seriously ) in 1990. if i kept busting my ass, watching time go by, being frustrated, i'd be pretty damn mad by i just wish i had the e-mail address of total gumby who was saying that " clinton didn't propose a nst ". actually, jerry brown essentially did...and clinton, in his demagogue persona, condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year. however.... why don't the republicans get their act together, and say they will support a broad-based vat that would have to be visible (the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe) and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform, and force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum. why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile... shift the tax burden from investment to consumption, and get health care reform, and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop. 
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 demon@desire.wright.edu (not a boomer) writes... a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed? shouldn't that be up to a jury? and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm? shouldn't that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial? whatever happened to jurors having to be objective? first, people should be aware that brett's (no last name listed) posts on bit.listserv.politics indicate that he has been hostile toward gm's hiring policies and to the moseley verdict when it came out. equal opportunity disagreement, i guess. :-) my guess, without seeing the judge's opinion, is that gm's motion was denied on due diligence grounds. otherwise, a party to a case could always keep one or two semi-credible witnesses in reserve to spring if they lose. not exactly a way to promote daniel reitman "the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser, but it is not a shield for the sly conniver, the blindly naive, or the hopelessly gullible." atlas auto rental corp. v. weisberg, 54 misc. 2d 168, 172, 281 n.y.s.2d 400, 405 (n.y. city civ. ct. 1967). 
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 the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. possibly because gay/bi men are less likely to get married? what was the purpose of this post? if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics, an incredibly flawed system of reasoning, and a repellent hatemonger agenda, then the purpose was accomplished with panache. (a) get a clue. (b) get a life. (c) get out of my face. i'm not in yours. ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 tes: just _try_ to justify the war on drugs, i _dare_ you! a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took 5 hits of acid is still having trouble "aiming" for the bowl when he takes a dump. don't as me how, i just have seen the results. boy, i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head. i'm sorry about your friend. really. but this anecdote does nothing to justify the "war on drugs". if anything, it demonstrates that the "war" is a miserable failure. what it demonstrates is that people will take drugs if they want to, legal or not. perhaps if your friend were taking legal, regulated drugs under a doctors supervision he might not be in the position he's in now. i do agree with you, in a way. the war on drugs has failed, but in my opinion, that doesn't mean we have to give up. only change the tactics. for instance, here are how some penalties should be changed. dealing coke -- death dealing heroin -- death dealing pot -- death dealing crack -- death the list goes on and on!!!...... just kidding!!! however, on a more serious note, i do believe that we should take some money away from the foriegn operations in south america and costly border interdiction efforts. (don't think i'm going to say, "spend it to educate people", because i know plenty of educated dopers). actually, spend it on things like drug treatment programs. i saw an interesting story on 60 minutes about how the british actually prescribe and addict his "recommended" dosage, and try to ween him off from it, or cut the amount down to levels where it is "acceptable". sounds good so far from what i heard with a decrease in cost, lower addiction rates by wiping out the dealer's markets, etc. (but that was the only thing i have heard about it.) however, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. plus, i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack, ecstasy, chrystal meth and lsd. the 60 minute report said it worked with "cocaine" cigarettes, pot and heroin. 
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 ||> yes you are. when you and the rest of the homosexual community ||> pass laws to impose your moral codes on me, by requiring me to ||> hire, rent to, or otherwise associate with a homosexual against ||> my will, yes, you are in my face. until homosexuals stop trying ||> to impose their morals on me, i will be in your face about this. |your post is based on the premise that the laws as they stand do not |discriminate anybody, so your argument falls over immediately. are you why not try to eliminate discrimination from existing laws instead of trying to add discrimination that favors your group. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 # #however, monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical # #purposes, homosexuality spreads aids. # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! # #relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. # you fucking homophobic moron!!!!!!!!! what about iv drug use? what about # tainted blood? what about multi-sexual partners? if you knew anything what about them? those also spread aids. where did i say anything different? go back and read what i wrote. the statement "homosexuality spreads aids" is not made false by the fact that there are other methods of spreading it as well. # about what you are talking about, you would be dangerous. as it is right now, # you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced. # joe cipale typical homosexual response. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # # actually, i was rather surprised to see an article on this subject # # (i.e. the "new, inproved" survey saying that roughly 1% of men are gay) # # on the front page of the new york _times_ recently (i think it was # # on thurs, 15 april). the headline was something to the effect of # # "new survey finds 1% of men are gay" # does anyone else see the difference between "1% of men are gay" and 1% # of men surveyed *say* they are gay? does the ny times think that # there is no one "in the closet"? i see. when survey after survey show 1-4%, we are supposed to believe one survey, done with very poor assumptions, with a very atypical population, 40 years ago when the society was far more repressed about homosexuality than it is now. yeah, right. # russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 has anybody heard an explanation of why the fbi was using tear gas in a 35 mph wind? doesn't seem like vry good tactics to me ... any other explanations? lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). 
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 i find it very interesting that you say there will be 2.5 million queers in the march on washington. the largest figure i've seen in the press is 1 million and we all know how liberal the press is with their numbers. :) for another thing, 1% of 250 million is 2.5 million not 6. maybe that's where you got the 2.5 million number. also, the number cited in the actual report is 1.5% so that would be about 3.75 million. as for this march on washington, i wonder how much the media is going to inflate the numbers this time. last time, for the pro-abortion rally, they more than doubled the actual number of people who showed up. that and all the stories coming out of how the press "slants" the news really makes one wonder who's watching the watchers. why are you all playing these pathetic number games? the number of people showing up at the mow hardly constitutes the entire queer populace. i doubt that it constitutes more than a handful of us. i'm queer, and i won't be there, simply because i don't have the time or the transportation. what the hell makes you think the participants in the mow embody more than a minimum face it, people, we're everywhere. there are always more of us than you think. our numbers are constantly growing, not diminishing...some of your children will grow up to join us. hell, some of my children may grow up to join us. the best way to deal with this phenomenon is not to fear it and blind yourself to it, but to realize that you have nothing to fear. we're not perverts, we're not dangerous, we're just here, and we're human just like you--er, most of you. idiots like cramer and kaldis can rant all they like. it won't do them one iota of good. p.s. i still can't get over the fact that some people actually believe that every queer in the u.s. would show up at the mow, and that these numbers are meaningful. and, come to think of it, what about those of us in other countries? tree. ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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 the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush. <more tripe deleted> phill, are you trying to convince everyone on the net that you are in fact an abject moron for some reason? repeating the same rubbish over and over again may make something a "fact" in whatever backwater you are posting from, but it doesn't wash here, so save it. michael lodman department of computer science engineering university of california, san diego jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (619) 455-1500 x2627 if guns are outlawed, only government outlaws will have guns. 
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 more likely than most places. when i was there the most "important" state issue was whether to have a state income tax or instead legalize a popular vice for fund raising, and vice won a decisive victory! mr. grinch p.s. now that he's safely dead, i expect david koresh to become the hero of popular folk ballads, and the atf to be generally equated with santa anna dead? i saw david koresh at a local 7-11...... john paul morrison | university of british columbia, canada | hey hey!! ho ho!! electrical engineering | tax & spend liberals jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca ve7jpm | have got to go!! ________________________________________|____________________________________ 
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 \input amstex \documentstyle{amsppt} \pagewidth{6.5in} \magnification=1200 \pageheight{7.5in} \title {letter to the editor} \endtitle \author {matthew l. fante} \endauthor \date {april 20, 1993} \enddate \endtopmatter in a letter to the fbi, david koresh said: ``do you want me to pull back the heavens and show you my anger?! ... fear me.'' the 51 day standoff between federal agents and the branch davidians ended on april 19 in what appeared to be a mass suicide by fire. now that the multi-million dollar standoff is over, a few things remain: cleaning up the mess, and assigning blame. from the onset of the april 19 tear gas attacks by federal agents, president clinton already started passing the buck by saying ``talk to the attorney general or the fbi... i knew it was going to be done, but the decision was {\it entirely theirs}. {\it they} made the tactical decision.'' enter attorney general janet reno. after most of the branch davidians died, reno said she took ``full responsibility'' for the decision. ``i approved the plan'' she said adding that she ``did not advise him [clinton] as to the details.'' in fact, she told clinton that it was ``the best way to go.'' as the fire was roaring through the branch davidian's compound clinton said that he was ``deeply sadened by the loss of life'' and in the same breath that ``the law enforcement agencies involved in the waco siege recommended the course of action pursued today.'' later he went on to say ``i stand by that [reno's] decision.'' how did this all begin? at 0930 on february 28 agents of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms (batf) launched a full-scale, high-profile assault on the branch davidian's compound. this raid was much more than an assault on a group suspected of possessing illegal weapons. the assault was a planned media circus used as a propaganda device of the batf to show their might and just purpose. at the onset of the ``no-knock'' raid, gaggles of heavily armed batf agents made their way inside the compound without identifying themselves or state that they had a warrant until long after the shooting began. silently, the agents made their way to the compound's buildings and started their ``search'' by charging at the buildings and throwing concussion grenades and ordering the cult members to come out of the buildings. if unknown persons dressed in black ninja costumes and combat fatigues were to attack you, throwing grenades and brandishing firearms, would you not assume that these people are criminals and attempt to defend yourself? the tactics employed by the batf provoked the battle. the initial assualt by the batf was not successful. unfortunately, lives were lost on both sides. but, had the assault been a success, the liberal media would have praised the batf by showing the footage of batf agents carting away a bunch of gun-wielding religious nuts. of course, any violation of the cult's rights would have been overlooked and the media would proclaim america's fortune in having super-cop organizations like the batf that can systematically ``take out'' terroristic groups such as the branch davidians. as far as i can see, the batf and the fbi dropped the ball - just like philadelphia did in the 1985 move crisis which left 11 dead, 250 homeless, and a city block razed. it appears that the batf has adopted the shoot-first tactic of no-knock raids to execute search warrants. don't let the batf convince you that the no-knock raid was justified. no-knock assaults make sense when looking for, say, drugs that can easily be hidden or disposed of in a few seconds. the batf was looking for illegal weapons, not drugs that could be hidden or flushed down the toilet in a matter of a few seconds. what ever happened to ``this is the police! you are surrounded...''? {\it this policy of no-knock raids, by federal and local agencies, should be restricted}. further, the use of military firepower against presumed innocent citizens is a very scary idea, and is why the davidians were justified in using lethal force to ensure that their fourth ammendment rights [``the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures''] are not denied. \noindent matthew l. fante \newline \end matthew fante mlf3@lehigh.edu for a good prime call 2^756839 - 1 410 webster street a public key is available bethlehem pa 18015 upon request 
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 also, in the april 14 globe and mail, there was a letter from the director of trauma services at st. michael's hospital in toronto responding to an article on a study comparing heart surgery in california and canada in which some canadian doctor worried that that study which was in the nejm, i think, noted that the frequency of heart surgery on patients over seventy increase with income in california (i guess richer people have more heart disease in california -) ) whereas the frequency of surgery on patients over seventy in canada was relatively uniform across income distribution. heart surgery was more frequent in california, but mortality and outcomes were essentially the same. american analysts would seize on the results as proof that canada rationed vital services. the doctor (i can't recall his name) said that canada *is* rationing vital services "as any physician can plainly see". he said that a system in which people are refused treatment because they can't afford it is no different from a system in which people are refused treatment because the government can't afford it as a result of deliberate underfunding of the health insurance plan. in fairness, he did say that both the us and canadian systems are in the same situation. (the ndp cleaning up a tory spending mess? and just when i thought i understood canadian politics). there was one about a group of doctors in calgary who have opened canada's first us-style mri clinic, as an alternative to the provincially owned one. it's about time! i've ragged on my own doctor friends as to why they don't invest in their own private practices ... in the end, it's their money. but they choose to spend it on america's cup pipedreams, and that's none of my business. as for "provincially owned" ... for sure it's against the law in canada for governments to be directly involved in the provision of health care except in the military or native reser- vations. what that term actually means is that the facility gets by on public grants to meet shortfall from *lack of use* ... no kidding. medical practice itself is much more conservative up north. my own best friend did two clerkships at the mayo clinic in rochester, mn, and is no stranger to high tech medicine ... but his boat comes first. there were some people expressing concern that it was the first wedge of two-tiered health care and that it might violate the canada health act. no, it's probably socialist whiners who are offended that we have private practices ... and always have. they can all take cash anyways ... so why not have a particular facility? the canadian big government mentality often imagines government where it does not even exist ... the only potential problem i see with the private mri facilty in calgary is the self-referral problem to the facility for the doctors who have a financial interest in it, which is basically unethical...but in canada because of our small population, there is likely only to be a few private facilities involving only a small number of doctors, and thus i don't think the self-referral problem, which is an epidemic in the us, could ever get out of hand here. look, nobody stopped the clinic when they planned on the mri ... nobody stopped them when they bought it. nobody seems to be stopping them from using it, either. much ado about nothing. thank goodness that hockey playoffs have started ... it is an experiment that will be certainly be watched carefully. while it seemed currently unjustified, there was one anecdote told by the head of the partnership to demonstrate the mri. he showed an image of an injured knee, which happened to belong to the manager of the bank who approved the loan. he said that without it, the guy might have had to wait a month or more at the provincial mri, then another length of time for treatment, after which the muscles would have atrophied and rehabilitation would have been that much harder if that isn't the first whiff of two tiers, i don't know what is. i'm certain there is exaggeration somewhere, because the gao study of canada cited often on usenet did not find access to mri to be a problem. i'll bet the doctor is relying on people having listened to american trash talk on cable so that he can puff his chest a bit. there are already a few treatment regimens for knee injuries without relying on mri ... unfortunately, i've had a few. )-; and i'm not a banker. (-; what likely happened is the sponsors of the private mri which include doctors anticipated that alberta would need more mri's, and instead of waiting for the health planners to realize they needed another one or two, saw a business opportunity...where they would have a secure business from the public insurance side of things, and they could supplement people and businesses who want to pay cash. 
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 : [...] when you and the rest of the homosexual community : pass laws to impose your moral codes on me, by requiring me to : hire, rent to, or otherwise associate with a homosexual against : my will, yes, you are in my face. until homosexuals stop trying : to impose their morals on me, i will be in your face about this. ahh, what's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. you don't want homosexuals to impose their moral codes (such diabolical ideas as equal rights) on you, yet you are willing to impose your moral codes on them. do i detect a double standard? what *exactly* does the american constitution say about "the right to association" ? homosexuals, whether clayton likes it or not, are as much members of society as he is. as such they have the right to participate and have an equal opportunity to pursue their goals. no-one is saying that clayton should be forced to associate with queerfolk in his private life (one suspects the gays in question would object also 8-) ), but by proclaiming the general right not to associate with them in the *public* sphere (which includes housing, hiring, etc), he's giving his right to non-association priority over their rights to equal access to opportunity. historically, people can associate publically with disliked groups with very little ill-effect, however cutting a group off from normal commerce has a severe impact on their lives. clayton, why exactly should your "right" to non-association in the public sphere take priority over homosexual's rights to equal opportunity ? tony quirke, wellington, new zealand. quirke_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz "usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992 
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 |> hmmm, what statistics are these? can you offer any references. the only |> studies i've seen indicate a higher proportion of homosexuals in prison |> than in the general population, but i don't think that allows for the |> "default" you refer to. prison is not a normal situation... |> but i haven't seen anything that suggests that the "default" proportion is |> lower than in the general population (although it seems plausible). |> anyway, as i say, can you provide any references? is this an arguement against or for? or simply a statement of agreeance/ disagreeance. the fact that there are more homosexuals in prison does not mean that homosexuals are immoral and more liable to commit crime. and one must remember that prison is not necessarily a reflection of the type of people who are criminals. what are the statistics for unsolved crime? there is also the question of cause and effect. lock a mostly straight guy up for 10 years with only guys, ask ten years later if he has ever had sex with a guy. closing your eyes and pretending its a girl sucking you still counts as sex with a guy on the survey.... ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 wouldn't one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners? just a thought. you might -- except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men -- which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are. your starting to sound like a little child who wants ice cream. if you kick and scream enough you think people will believe you. sorry proof by vigorous ascertion doesn't hold any water. i can insist that cats are dogs all day, it doesn't make it so. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 in article 1@hirama.hiram.edu, i went and stepped in it: i never knew that soldiers were supposed to salute any civilians except for the commander-in-chief... the cinc is not a civillian. ding ding, planet earth calling.... i will agree that cincpac and cinclant are not civilians, but the cinc is still the president, and unless things have changed a whole lot with the arrival of the billaryklintonklique, i don't recall as how the current president gots himself much more than civilian status.....[1] as far as a member of the armed forces is concerned, the president is whatever the h*ll he wants to be. all of them recently have rather insisted on being treated as something other than a *mere* civilian. if it moves, salute it, if it don't, pick it up. if you can't pick it up, paint it. so if hilary were asleep at the time...... [1] nothing personal jeff, but i like living in countries where the head of state is a civilian, it sorta limits the habit of using the military as the first choice for solving domestic problems.... i like living in a country where the head of state is not a military officer too. but this point about not using the military as the first choice for solving domestic problems.... didn't they go after these branch davidians with a *tank*, after all? jeffrey s. medkeff bitnet- medkeffjs@hiramb po box 1098 internet- medkeffjs@hiramb.hiram.edu hiram, oh 44234 pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight. but u.s.a. roaring bill (who killed him) thought it right. 
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 # recent studies have shown that the number of men who have # engaged in homosexual activities in the last decade is 2.3% # and the number of men who are exclusively homosexual is 1.1%. # these figures are much less than those that came from earlier # studies that showed that homosexuality among men is a lot # higher. # so, what can we deduce from these figures? are there a lot # less male homosexuals than there used to be or are men # (perhaps women too) not as honest as they used to be about # there sexuality? presumably, the people that were polled in you mean, in the 1940s, men and women were much more open about their homosexuality than today? want to try that one again? # this survey were assured of their anonymnity so they should # have answered the questions honestly i suppose. however, it # could be that gays feel so repressed and denigrated by society # that they didn't feel that they could be forthcoming about there # sexuality in something like a survey. if this true then is it # possible that there is a lot more gays out there than we are led # to believe? # perhaps if americans were more open about there sexuality---i think # most americans aren't---then we might discover that there are really # quite a few more people out there who are orientated toward the same # sex---men and women included. i'd venture a guess that there is a # lot of people out there who have considered having a relationship # with someone of the same sex at some point in there life. maybe they # didn't take their longings seriously, but this doesn't make these # longings any less valid. therefore, if americans weren't so # repressed about their sexuality in general---as i believe they may be # ---then we'd see a lot more people "coming out of the closet". you mean, ignore study after study, so that we can continue to accept a study (kinsey's) that is obviously wrong? # as for myself, i'm a heterosexual and i've never considered having # sex with another man. that's just the way i am...i could have just # as easily of been gay i suppose. one of the big debates about # homosexuality is whether or not it's a type of behavior that is # learned or if one is just born that way. imho, the more likely # explanation is that it's some combination of the two. based on what, besides your own warm fuzzy feelings? # here's something to ponder upon: have any of you gay-bashers out # there ever considered that homosexuals probably deem their sexual # orientation as being a state of affairs that is just as much an # intrinsic and "natural" part of their life as heterosexuals do # about their own sexuality? in other words, someone who is *truly* alcoholics share that feeling, until they hit bottom. # gay may not be able to live any other way. even if they date someone # of the opposite sex or get married, in their *heart* they are still a # homosexual. likewise, if someone who is *truly* heterosexual forms # a relationship with someone of the same sex, then they are *still* # a heterosexual even though outward appearances may suggest otherwise. # scott kennedy, brewer and patriot unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of recent works suggest. if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others (antidiscrimination laws) and leave our children alone, i wouldn't care in the least what they did in private. but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live, i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an "alternative lifestyle," but a sickness. # before: "david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets # the bible through the barrel of a gun..." --atf spokesman # after: "[the atf] is a cheap thug who interprets # [the constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --me good signature! clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178889">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178889" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 wouldn't one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners? just a thought. you might -- except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men -- which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178891">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178891" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 # ## absolutely nothing, seeing as there is no table for heterosexuals. # ## if, as you claim, the supposedly higher promescuity amongst homosexual # ## males makes them an insurance risk, you need to be show that # ## heterosexual males are less promiscuous than homosexual males. # ## without the data on heterosexual males, we cannot make a comparison # ## between promiscuity rates of heterosexuals and homosexuals. # ## * mjcugley@maths-and-cs.dundee.ac.uk (world) * # ## * or mjcugley@uk.ac.dund.maths-and-cs (uk) * # well, the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits # if the oppertunity presented itself? # i reckon *any* *man* would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a # huge variety of willing partners. the question here is not of being that, i suppose, says a lot about how screwed up you are. # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! # xavier clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178892">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178892" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 # ## face it, clayton, he was not found guilty, and so what if gays sometimes # ## make it consensually with 16 year old boys. there are 16 year old gays, you # ## know. and as i recall, the case of the state rested on the testimony of one # ## "victim" who declined to testify, even under threat. i have had teens since # ## i was 40, and so have a lot of people. face it clayton, you're just a jerk! # ## -rsw # ## * richard steven walz rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (408) 429-1200 * # ## * 515 maple street #1 * without safe and free abortion women are * # ## * santa cruz, ca 95060 organ-surrogates to unwanted parasites.* * # #i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law -- and # #putting their address in the signature. please tell us more about # #this. were they 13? 14? would you like to make a statement for # #the district attorney? # i had sex with a 13 year old boy, it was great, we did *everything*, # well, a hell of a lot. it was fun anyway. oh, and before you turn # purple with rage i was 12 at the time. # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! the walz monster above, however, was past 40 when he molested these kids, as he says above. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178893">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178893" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 # mr. cramer, i am still waiting for your response to my requests regarding # the information you claim to have. i respectfully request that you either # provide the information or withdraw the various assertions you make below. # item number 1: in a previous posting, you stated that you had found # "overwhelming support for child molestation" in soc.motss: # you have (finally) responded to this one. i have read your complete file # of postings to soc.motss and to put it bluntly, it does not support your # assertion. in short, this claim is bogus. thank you for confirming this. all those postings in defense of adults having sex with children, and you just choose to claim that they don't say anything of the sort. there's no point in discussing this any further, then. you are clearly a liar, without morals of any sort, prepared to justify child molestation. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178897">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178897" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 the waco/whacko bar-b-q caused me to remember an official explanation from the vietnam war. the 90s, liberal version is: "it was necessary to incinerate the children in order to save them." clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178901">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178901" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 # #however, monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical # #purposes, homosexuality spreads aids. # #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! # #relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. # you fucking homophobic moron!!!!!!!!! what about iv drug use? what about # tainted blood? what about multi-sexual partners? if you knew anything what about them? those also spread aids. where did i say anything different? go back and read what i wrote. the statement "homosexuality spreads aids" is not made false by the fact that there are other methods of spreading it as well. but it is made false by your ridiculous leap of logic from "monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare" (which is a load of horseshit--as proportionately many queers are monogamous as hets, and the ones who aren't use condoms, for the most part) to "for practical purposes, homosexuality spreads aids." no. unprotected sex with an infected partner spreads aids. these "practical purposes" you speak of are obviously the purposes of spreading homophobia, which leads me to an interesting truth: "cramer spreads hate." isn't that nice? # about what you are talking about, you would be dangerous. as it is right now, # you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced. # joe cipale typical homosexual response. you mean, "typical homosexual response to clayton e. cramer." i think any human being would react that way to someone as contemptibly hateful as you, actually. i seem to hear the same sort of thing coming from your posts, you know.... clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. planning to make this a complete sentence anytime soon? ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! \ ---- as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu treewater \/ "words weren't made for cowards"--happy rhodes 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178903">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178903" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 a repost from talk.religion.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish: organization: stratus computer, inc. we used to live in a country where everyone enjoyed the free exercise of their rights to worship and bear arms. arms? automatic weapons, grenades, rocket launchers? the sorts of things no family should be without, i guess. all government claims. if they were really stocking such weapons for armageddon, how come they never used them? anyway, i've often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons. it's hard to imagine a pistol-packin' jesus, though i suppose a pump-action shotgun would have made clearing the temple a hell of a lot easier. "the time is coming. those of you who have no sword, sell your shirt and buy one... and they told him, master, we have two swords. and he said, it is enough." (luke ...) "think not that i am come to send peace on earth: i came not to send peace, but the sword. for i am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daugher against her mother..." (matt 10 34-35) well, when the nice federal officers come to my house to check out my extensive weapons cache, i'll just be sure not to shoot at them. "tea, ladies and gentlemen?" just maybe you won't be home. then you can come home to something like this: "well, it's been a rough month," begins johnnie lawmaster. "i just get laid off, and my divorce became final. but i just wasn't ready for what happened this particular monday." that particular monday was was december 16, the first day of the bill of rights' third century, the day when federal agents and local law enforcement officer broke into the house in tulsa that always flew the u.s. flag. when lawmaster drove into the driveway that bleak afternoon, one of his neighbors had some news. "'ohmigod, john, you are in big trouble!' my neighbor tells me. 'sixty police, federal agents and the bomb squad busted in you house, kicked down the door, cut locks off your gun safe.' i couldn't believe it. then i walked inside. what a nightmare." it was no nightmare; it was horribly real life. apparently acting on information the lawmaster possessed an illegal firearm, some thirty agents of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms (batf) teamed up with state and tulsa police authorities, search warrant in hand, to search for a "colt, ar-15, .223 caliber machine gun, unknown serial number." the warrant, issued by u.s. magistrate john leo wagner, also authorized agents to seize "any tools used in the alteration or modification of firearms, such as files or drills; documents, papers, books, records, and other tangible properties which identify occupants or owners of the property to be searched...." reports vary, but according to neighbors, the joint task force operation aimed at the unemployed warehouseman from a nearby hospital involved some 60 agents and local law enforcement personnel against lawmaster. they cordoned off the street; took station with weapons drawn in the back yard; used a battering ram to break through the front door; kicked in the back door; broke into his gun safe; threw personal papers around the house; spilled boxes of ammunition on the floor; broke into a small, locked box that contained precious coins; stood on a table to peer through the ceiling tiles, breaking the table in the process. then, they left. the doors were closed but not latched, much less locked. the ammo and guns were left unsecured. "my front and back doors were pulled shut, but they were busted through and couldn't latch. anybody could have waltzed in there and stolen everything i own. a child could have taken a gun. the guns, the safe -- everything was open and laying around. i keep all my magazines empty, but someone had loaded them. while i was looking around in amazement, the gas, electric and water companies show up to turn the power off. they said they were told to shut things down. then i found the note. "nothing found - atf." "they didn't make any attempt to notify me. i've lived in tulsa all my life and never got more than a traffic ticket. how come they can't look that up, realize i've been law-abiding my whole life, then come to the door when i'm home? they didn't leave someone here to watch over my private property. they didn't even come by to explain what happened. they just raided my home, ransaked it, left it wide open and left." lawmaster placed a phone call to the local batf agent. "i asked, 'are you gonna' arrest me?' and he said, 'no.' i asken him, "who is going to repair and clean up my house?' and he said, "if you're going to talk to me, come down to my office.' "'i can't come down!' i said. 'my doors are broken!' if i had been on vacation and i didn't have friendly neighbors, i would have lost everything i own. here i am a competent, responsible firearms owner, and the government leaves them open, unlocked, with ammo strewn around." lawmaster said the agent advised him, "if you want your door to lock and your gun safe to lock, you're gonna' have to pay for it yourself." "'oh, i'll come right down, alright,' i told him. 'i'll come down, but i'll bring my attorney.' and he said, 'well, you bring your attorney, and we won't talk to you.'" so if you don't want your tea party to be held in awkward silence, make sure your lawyer isn't there, there's a good chap. it's very sad all those people died, especially the kids, but that's going to happen in a free society whenever psychologically needy people hook up with a charismatic nutcase. what a repulsive outlook on society. "followers of unusual religions may be killed by the government -- it simply can't be helped in a free society." you and i have two different concepts of "free." cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178905">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178905" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 in <1993apr19.221331.26203@pony.ingres.com>, garrett@ingres.com sez: [re michael friedman and phil ronzone] o.k. so far you guys have called me: 1) an ignorant asshole 2) ignorant slut 3) dumb as a bag of hammers 4) dumb shit am i missing any? try asking michael whether he still thinks the m-16 "is one of the most beautiful machines around." or ask phil if he still claims that the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th amendment apply to the federal government. the responses should be as enlightening as the recent name-calling, and about as relevant. they told me you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound. mark eckenwiler eck@panix.com ...!cmcl2!panix!eck 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178907">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178907" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 rejoice! the streets of amerika are much safer now that the branch davidians no longer have those nasty assault weapons. your children will no longer lie awake at night wondering when the next brand davidian will attempt to shoot them from their rural compound. men, women, and children have been murdered by our great batf, but the greater good has been secured for all. rejoice! `criminals' who execise the second amendment will be killed. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc178908">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc178908" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 20, 1993 remarks by the president in question and answer session with the press the rose garden 1:36 p.m. edt the president: on february the 28th, four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition, and placed innocent children at risk. because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective, a 51-day standoff ensued. the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life. the bureau's efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing, david koresh, was dangerous, irrational, and probably he engaged in numerous activities which violated both federal law and common standards of decency. he was, moreover, responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the action against the compound in february. given his inclination towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages, no provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal agents against the compound. this weekend i was briefed by attorney general reno on an operation prepared by the fbi, designed to increase pressure on koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully. the plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition, even in the face of fire, and instead to use tear gas that would not cause permanent harm to health, but would, it was hoped, force the people in the compound to come outside and to surrender. i was informed of the plan to end the siege. i discussed it with attorney general reno. i asked the questions i thought it was appropriate for me to ask. i then told her to do what she thought was right, and i take full responsibility for the implementation of the decision. yesterday's action ended in a horrible human tragedy. mr. koresh's response to the demands for his surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives, as well as all the other people who were there who did not survive. he killed those he controlled, and he bears ultimate responsibility for the carnage that ensued. now we must review the past with an eye towards the future. i have directed the united stated departments of justice and treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to uncover what happened and why, and whether anything could have been done differently. i have told the departments to involve independent professional law enforcement officials in the investigation. i expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required to complete the review. finally, i have directed the departments to cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can continue to be fully accountable to the american people. i want to express my appreciation to the attorney general, to the justice department, and to the federal agents on the front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult again, i want to say as i did yesterday, i am very sorry for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end of this tragedy in waco. i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks. and i hope very much that the difficult situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what has been learned now. q mr. president, can you, first of all, tell us why, after 51 days, you decided -- q mr. president, can you describe for us what it is that janet reno outlined to you in your 15-minute phone conversation with -- the president: i can't hear you both. if one will go first and then the other. q sorry. can you describe what janet reno -- q mr. president -- the president: i'll answer both your questions, but i can't do it at once. q can you describe what she told you on sunday about the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it? the president: yes. i was told by the attorney general that the fbi strongly felt that the time had come to take another step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound. and she described generally what the operation would be -- that they wanted to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause permanent damage to adults or to children, but which would make it very difficult for people to stay inside the building. and it was hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside. i was further told that under no circumstances would our people fire any shots at them even if fired upon. they were going to shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and there would be no exchange of fire. in fact, as you know, an awful lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials. there were no shots coming back from the government side. i asked a number of questions. the first question i asked is, why now? we have waited seven weeks; why now? the reasons i was given were the following: number one, that there was a limit to how long the federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the quality and intensity of coverage by experts there. they might be needed in other parts of the country. number two, that the people who had reviewed this had never seen a case quite like this one before, and they were convinced that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to be made through the normal means of getting koresh and the other cult members to come out. number three, that the danger of their doing something to themselves or to others was likely to increase, not decrease, with the passage of time. and number four, that they had reason to believe that the children who were still inside the compound were being abused significantly, as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and unsafe conditions. so for those reasons, they wanted to move at that time. the second question i asked the attorney general is whether they had given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and evaluated them against what might happen that was good. she said that the fbi personnel on the scene and those working with them were convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only increase with the passage of time. the third question i asked was, has the military been consulted? as soon as the initial tragedy came to light in waco, that's the first thing i asked to be done, because it was obvious that this was not a typical law enforcement situation. military people were then brought in, helped to analyze the situation and some of the problems that were presented by it. and so i asked if the military had been consulted. the attorney general said that they had, and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one minor tactical difference of opinion between the fbi and the military -- something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming having asked those questions and gotten those answers, i said that if she thought it was the right thing to do, that she should proceed and that i would support it. and i stand by that q mr. president -- the president: wait. go ahead. q can you address the widespread perception -- reported widely, television, radio and newspapers -- that you were trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster? the president: no, i'm bewildered by it. the only reason i made no public statement yesterday -- let me say -- the only reason i made no public statement yesterday is that i had nothing to add to what was being said and i literally did not know until rather late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into custody. it was purely and simply a question of waiting for events to unfold. there was -- i have -- i can't account for why people speculated one way or the other, but i talked to the attorney general on the day before the action took place. i talked to her yesterday. i called her again late last night after she appeared on the larry king show, and i talked to her again this morning. a president -- it is not possible for a president to distance himself from things that happen when the federal government is in control. i will say this, however. i was, frankly, surprised would be a mild word, to say that anyone that would suggest that the attorney general should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. (applause.) i regret what happened, but it is not possible in this life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance. these people killed four federal officials in the line of duty. they were heavily armed. they fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly, and they were never fired back on. we did everything we could to avoid the loss of life. they made the decision to immolate themselves. and i regret it terribly, and i feel awful about the but in the end, the last comment i had from janet reno, is when -- and i talked to her on sunday -- i said, now, i want you to tell me once more why you believe -- not why they believe -- why you believe we should move now rather than wait some more. and she said, it's because of the children. they have evidence that those children are still being abused and that they're in increasingly unsafe conditions, and that they don't think it will get any easier with time -- with the passage of time. i have to take their word for that. so that is where i think things stand. q can we assume then that you don't think this was mishandled in view of the outcome, that you didn't run out of patience? and if you had it to do over again, would you really decide that way? the president: no -- well, i think what you can assume is just exactly what i announced today. this is a -- the fbi has done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of time. this is the same fbi that found the people that bombed the world trade center in lickety-split, record time. we want an inquiry to analyze the steps along the way. is there something else we should have known? is there some other question they should have asked? is there some other question i should have asked? can i say for sure that no one -- that we could have done nothing else to make the outcome come different? i don't know that. that's why i want the inquiry and that's why i would like to make sure that we have some independent law enforcement people, not political people, but totally non-political, outside experts who can bring to bear the best evidence we have. there is, unfortunately, a rise in this sort of fanaticism all across the world. and we may have to confront it again. and i want to know whether there is anything we can do, particularly when there are children involved. but i do think it is important to recognize that the wrong-doers in this case were the people who killed others and then killed themselves. q mr. president, were there any other options presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from february 28th until yesterday? the president: well, yes, i got regular reports all along the way. there were lots of other options pursued. if you go back -- you all covered it very well. the fbi -- you did a very good job of it. i mean, the fbi and the other authorities there pursued any number of other options all along the way, and a lot of them early on seemed to be working. some of the children got out, some of the other people left. there was a -- at one point, there seemed to be some lines of communication opening up between koresh and the authorities. and then he would say things and not do them and things just began to spin downward. whether there were other -- in terms of what happened yesterday, the conversation i had with the attorney general did not involve other options except whether we should take more time with the present strategy we were pursuing -- because they said they wanted to do this, because they thought this was the best way to get people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves. that's what they thought. q did the government know that the children did not have gas masks? q congressional hearings once the situation -- are you in agreement with that? the president: that's up to the congress. they can do whatever they want. but i think it's very important that the treasury and justice departments launch this investigation and bring in some outside experts. and as i said in my statement, if any congressional committees want to look into it, we will fully cooperate. there is nothing to hide here. this was probably the most well-covered operation of its kind in the history of the go ahead, sarah. q there are two questions i want to ask you. the first is, i think that they knew very well that the children did not have gas masks while the adults did, so the children had no chance because this gas was very -- she said it was not lethal, but it was very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived without gas masks. and on february 28th -- let's go back -- didn't those people have a right to practice their religion? the president: they were not just practicing their religion, they were -- the treasury department believed that they had violated federal laws, any number of them. q what federal laws -- the president: let me go back and answer -- i can't answer the question about the gas masks, except to tell you that the whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested; they were convinced that it wouldn't kill either a child or an adult but it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside. and one of the things that i've heard -- i don't want to get into the details of this because i don't know -- but one of the things that they were speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have escaped and that may be why it didn't have the desired effect. they also knew, sarah, that there was an underground compound -- a bus buried underground where the children could be sent. and they were -- i think they were hoping very much that if the children were not released immediately outside that the humane thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace where they could be protected. in terms of the gas masks themselves, i learned yesterday -- i did not ask this fact question before -- that the gas was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks themselves were to work. so that it was thought that even if they all had gas masks, that eventually the gas would force them out in a nonviolent, nonshooting circumstance. ms. myers: last question. q mr. president, why are you still saying that -- q could you tell us whether or not you ever asked janet reno about the possibility of a mass suicide? and when you learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your mind during those horrendous moments? the president: what i asked janet reno is if they had considered all the worse things that could happen. and she said -- and, of course, the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the public -- he had -- that had been debated anyway. and she said that the people who were most knowledgeable about these kinds of issues concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in the future. that was the judgment they made. whether they were right or wrong, of course, we will never know. what happened when i saw the fire, when i saw the building burning? i was sick. i felt terrible. and my immediate concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were escaping or whether they were inside, trying to burn themselves up. that's the first thing i wanted to know. thank you. q mr. president, why are you still saying it was a janet reno decision? isn't it, in the end, your decision? the president: well, what i'm saying is that i didn't have a four- or five-hour, detailed briefing from the fbi. i didn't go over every strategic part of it. it is a decision for which i take responsibility. i'm the president of the united states and i signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to make the last call. when i talked to her on sunday, some time had elapsed. she might have made a decision to change her mind. i said, if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow, i will support you. and i do support her. she is not ultimately responsible to the american people; i am. but i think she has conducted her duties in an appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation i think as well as she could have. thank you. (applause.) end1:55 p.m. edt 
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 i'd like to conduct a small survey relating to americans' views on economics and on japan. the survey consists of just two questions. i ask that only americans respond; i've posted it worldwide, however, because i think others will be interested in the results. i'll tabulate the results and post them with some commentary. please respond by email to "borden@m5.harvard.edu". here are the questions: 1) as an american, would you prefer that in a given year, a) our economy grows by one percent, and japan's economy also grows by one percent, or b) our economy grows by two percent while japan's economy grows by three percent? 2) on what newsgroup did you read this survey? thank you for your participation. - dave borden borden@m5.harvard.edu 
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 : when you force people to associate with others against their will, : yes. : people are *forced* into the usa armed forces? they were in the recent past, maybe someone knows for certain if the usa has decided if it wants a conscript army (as they sent into south east asia) or a volenteer one? mark evans |evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 429 9199 (home) |evansmp@cs.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 359 6531 x4039 (office) | 
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 has anybody heard an explanation of why the fbi was using tear gas in a 35 mph wind? first, a tank drove through the wall into the living room. i can't stop thinking about the children who were inside the house (the room?) at the time. how many people got killed during the tiannamen square events? doesn't seem like vry good tactics to me ... any other explanations? lew glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "perspective is worth 80 iq points." niels bohr (or somebody like that). disclaimer: opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. 
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 a very well put together post. i disagree with several key points, but the post is an excellent one with which to "engage in discourse": there has been much discussion recently about the right to freedom of association. mr. cramer and mr. ronzone appear to take an absolutist position on this right--that it is a fundamental human right, perhaps the fundamental human right, and that it supersedes other rights, such as the right to an equal opportunity. others feel that a right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association, and thus we have the never-ending debate that flares up freedom of association (foa) involves the mutual and voluntary agreement of two or more people. right to equal opportunity (lets call it reo) involves coercion in all cases (by definition). a major problem is that neither of these rights are explicitly declared or protected in the constitution or in the declaration of independence, although both can be derived from these documents. unfortunately, this means that the debate will never end, because neither side can conclu- sively prove the validity of their view--it becomes solely a matter of personal philosophy. yes, there is much debate. but no, it can end, with once and for all recognition of these rights. (well, not totally 100% perfect end, but end in the same way that there is no worldwide disagreement that say, murder, is a crime). my personal opinion is that the real answer lies somewhere in between. i regard both of these rights as fundamental human rights which, unfortu- nately, come into direct conflict with one another. which is stronger depends on the given hmm, there is even more discusion about religion. should we take a "somewhere in between" approach towards the state & a state recognized religion? the first amendment, is so, uh, so absolutist you know. for example, if the owner of a "mom-and-pop" store wishes to hire an employee to help out, their right to freedom of association outweighs the rights of their job applicants to an equal opportunity. they should be free to hire whomever they choose, using whatever criteria they choose, without any government intervention at all. similarly, if a family wishes to rent out a bedroom in their home, or a garage apartment, or something similar, then their right to freedom of association outweighs the rights of their prospective tenants to an equal opportunity. if, on the other hand, ibm, a multi-national corporation with 275,000 employees, publicly owned, and operated by a board of directors, wishes to hire additional employees, then whose freedom of association are we protecting? the board of directors? the other employees? the owners of the stock? in this case, the applicant's right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association, and we, as a society, can ask ibm to use only those criteria which are relevant to the specific task. why? says who? why can mon & pop have foa, but ibm be forced, and force is the correct word here, to have reo? as purchase of ibm is voluntary, then there are very well defined procedures on how ibm chooses to do some things and chooses to do other things. why not let those same procedures work for employment policies? similarly, if a landlord owns a number of apartment buildings in which he does not live, and which are managed by an independent management agency, then whose freedom of association are we protecting? if the owner does not live in his buildings and has no contact with his tenants, then the prospective tenant's right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association, and we, as a society, can ask the owner to use only those criteria which are relevant to "good" tenants. (i've put "good" in quotation marks because i really don't want to be drawn off into the side issue of what constitutes a good tenant.) why does this tenant have an "option" (i won't call it a right) to destroy the foa of the landlord? if the landlord and the tenant can't agree, then they both can cease from using each other's property. suddenly, by arm waving, by magic, a landlord does not have foa. and on what basis does the foa of the landlord "disappear"? it seems that vague terms like "no contact with tenants" suffice. well, i think foa is one our most important rightts (in the top 2-3), and by golly, if the state is going to make it suffer, i sure would like to see the heinous crime that justifies the removal of this right. i don't think "no contact" with the tenats is even a crime, much less something that should cause severe interference with important rights. i suspect that the majority of the people in this country agree with my position on these extreme cases, particularly if they are presented in this manner. i don't know if mr. ronzone or mr. cramer would agree--i suspect not. in any case, additional problems arise when we try to apply guidelines for the middle ground. what if the company has 10 employees, or 100, or 1000? where do we draw the line between protecting the right to freedom of association and protecting the right to an equal opportunity? rights are not defined by majority/mob choice. foa is an absolute. reo is a fancy name for thuggery, for racism, and coercion. the difficulty is that any line we draw will, of necessity, be artificial. and any legislation resulting will be flawed. in the past, the government has usually tried to pass laws which referred to the number of employees hired by the company--e.g., any company with more than xxx employees was affected by the law. those with fewer were unaffected. of course it would be. you dimly see that the line must be artifiacial, because foa is the only right. just like a state religion -- you can't jsutify that generally, i believe that if we do not have any regulations affecting these rights, then the right to freedom of association will be stronger. on the other hand, many of the regulations protect the right to an equal opportunity too much, weakening the right to freedom of association. i don't believe there is a satisfactory solution which will please everybody. a solution that i came up with is to use publicly owned vs. privately owned as the dividing line. if the company remains privately owned, then the owners should be free to do whatever they want with their company. if the company becomes publicly owned, then the public has a right to ask the company to submit to additional regulation. why? i assume that when you say "publicly owned", you are talking about those quasi-state companys that do not have shareholders. the companies on the fortune 500, for example, are all privately owned. they can give you a list of all of their owners. they have no "anonymous", unknown to them, owners. by the way, the above analysis is based on the assumption that the right to freedom of association and the right to an equal opportunity are both fundamental human rights of equal importance. since this is entirely a matter of faith, not subject to any "proof", i do not choose to even try to establish this. you either accept it or you don't. any comments? foa can be derived by any two rational people, on a basis that neither has evil, malicious, or murderous intent towards the others. in short, agreement is mutual, or not at all. your reo on the other hand, lives only by accepting coercion, the gun, into the situation. and that is self-destructive of the whole argument, because it is based only on might makes right. sort of like saying, "nobody has a right to live", whereupon i whip out a gun and shoot you dead -- end of argument. there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster. weird, eh? these opinions are mine, and you can't have 'em! (but i'll rent 'em cheap ...) 
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 gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) writes... you're not buying insurance so much as being coerced into one insurance plan. no, it is optional ... as it is optional for doctors to accept it. there are isolated religeous communities in particular that ask for exemptions (and one e-mail from a christian scientist in edmonton verified for me that it is indeed negative option). i guess that you can argue that there is a right to having a particular insurance, but so far i've not come across that up north ... and i take pains to keep tabs with news from home. it's optional, but what if you don't want basic coverage on the government's terms? you said before that if you opt out, you're basically uninsured. there are two things at work here ... the public insurance is very wide in what it will cover, as the amortization is also universal. no private plan can boast of a plan that fits a gaussian curve ... and as our private sector has discovered, they're better off not offering insurance coverage that their customers are going to use. and that turns the private insurers offering the frills into an effective cartel-they don't really need to compete because, as you put it, they're in a "win-win" situation and they're guaranteed to turn a believe me, they probably had orgasms when they figured that out. and according to my sister the yuppie, they pat themselves on the back to the point of ungraciousness at chamber of commerce luncheons. so, in a sense, they've stopped being truly capitalists if they don't have to worry about competing anymore. you might say that the total effect is one of socialized medicine-a government providing the basics and a cartel providing the extras. there is no alternative to the system, desirable or not. the alternative to the system is no system at all (patients opted out, doctors opted out, or both). but that only for insurance ... and you can't force a private insurance company to sell you a plan that they will not offer. and remember that the actual health care is delivered by private entities who collect from the public insurance voluntarily. again, they can't force a private entity to spring to life to pay them. plus, there is the matter of culture and values ... i'm basically anti-tax and anti-government, by canadian standards ... yet i can't bring myself to make the same arguments as you do, despite that i understand where you're coming from. up north, you're so much more likely to find someone protesting taxes going to defence than health insurance premiums to only one fund for basic coverage ... (interesting side note-have any new insurance companies started up-from scratch-since medicare became standard in canada? i actually have doubts that any new ones have emerged since ww i ... no, scratch that ... there are a few in western canada, and *quite* a few in quebec as part of the post-1980 quebec miracle (out with the nationalism, in with the french capitalism). la groupe des cooper- antes built a new tower by the eaton('s) store at les terraces, and if you were able to catch urban angel on cbs's crimetime you'd see it as the well-lit one with double-turrets at the top. as for ontario, which still dominates and anchors business up north ... i meant new companies, not new buildings. yes, primarily in quebec and in alberta. sorry, i musta lost you in that verbose blurb ... it's not really insurance if you don't have alternatives well, you have to realize that in our society that's like saying that "it's not really national defence" because you can't hire your own rambo squad instead or even opting out as a pacifist. true, but i would be more comfortable with a system in which basic care provided by the government was optional, not mandatory. in canada and germany, it's not mandatory. however, it is negative option in that you must request the exemption. that the private sector will not provide private basic coverage if offered the option (as in the quebec case) tells me something about what they know ... either way, the transient situations are hard to deal with since the changes in the private medical care resource take place at a slower rate than the ability of people to fall sick esp. in the light of disasters (e.g., chernobyl) or bad luck (a sudden wave of heart disease). a doctor needs 4-6 years of training, plus internship and specialty training. another problem with the us system that should be resolved. doesn't canada have something like ten times the proportion of gps to specialists that the us does? yes, but part of the reason is that our most of our markets are too small to sustain many specialists, sometimes not even one, so you pretty well have to be a gp to get paid. and if you do get the training, the doctors monopoly might block your getting of a licence because there is already someone in the business and who cannot fill his/her appointment book. that we have a cma doctors monopoly is something that the american ama-oriented medical lobby never tells you down here ... the problem is, in a specialty your skill often directly correlates to your pay (a good cardiologist makes more than a merely adequate cardiologist) more than it does in general practice. in that circumstance, it's hard to blame people for going into specialties. no, i respect people who do specialties (okay, all of my md friends are (-;) but there's the question of our small market dynamics up north ... if anything, that our private doctors and hospitals sell their services to americans to generate more business will inflate their effective population served, and thus make some specialties finally viable (i.e., there will be enough customers). we just do not have enough sick canadians in absolute numbers otherwise. i personally think an approach like germany's would be best-where the companies compete for batches of people. rochester, a little east of us, was able to get almost all of its population covered that way. uh ... germany basically uses our method, with their many sickness funds. the competition is fake if it exists at all, because they're all interlinked. look in der spiegel or stern (my girlfriend is in our german department and her uncle is a private practicioner in saarbrucken) ... no ads for health insurance. while canada organizes by province, germany organizes the paperwork around big corporations and regional offices. but remember that we have provinces that have the same population as some major german corporations. germans have public health insurance, just that it is brokered by smaller entities (actually, brokerage of basic by private firms who'll sell extra insurance to fill out their policies, sort of a voucher system, was one of the first ideas floated in canada, too). remember, the germans don't have hmo's ... a telling sign, 'cos rochester does and they're also a company town. but there was a washington post article recently about that that said canadian doctors often use myelograms instead of mris, which require spinal injections and can cause seizures and headaches. mickey kaus, in the new republic, probably spoke for most americans when he said "who needs that?" i think people here generally like to believe they can easily get the most high-tech treatment even if they really can't afford it. i'll have to let a canadian md jump in to verify that claim, but i've come to learn to suspect anything in the american press about our "system". if much or some of it were true, you'd have to take us for idiots for tolerating it. and given that our insurance was installed during a period when there were only liberal and tory governments federally and provincially, and the socialists are still chafing, they would've pressed for real socialized medicine to fix things ... think about it. after all, we are using the u.s. as a metric to make comparison ... both for keeping-up-with-the-joneses as for confirming that we did something right. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 f<o>cus/health: how u.s. compares... children/elderly in poverty percentage of children and elderly living in poverty 1984-1987:(3) children elderly country in poverty in poverty united states 20.4 10.9 canada 9.3 2.2 australia 9.0 4.0 united kingdom 7.4 5.2 france 4.6 4.5 netherlands 3.8 3.4 germany 2.8 2.8 sweden 1.6 4.3 source: timothy m. smeeding, "u.s. poverty and income security policy in a cross national perspective, october 1991, luxembourg, october, 1991, luxembourg income study, working paper 70. of the 19 western industrial nations: western industrial countries having a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage: australia yes sweden yes canada yes united kingdom yes denmark yes austria yes finland yes france yes ireland yes switzerland yes italy yes spain yes japan yes belgium yes new zealand yes germany yes netherlands yes norway yes western industrial countries not having a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage. united states no from page 74 of: _we're number one, where america stands -- and falls -- in the new world order_ by andrew l shapiro. new york, may 1992, vintage books, a division of random house. $10 paperback. isbn 0-679-73893-2 [transcribed by jhwoodar@well.sf.ca.us (joe woodard)] ``america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor. this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. the facts it reveals will startle you. they may depress you. but ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation.'' -robert b. reich, author of the work of nations 
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 f<o>cus/health: millions of americans un-/under- covered percentage of population covered by public health insurance, 1990(25) country percent country percent australia 100 sweden 100 canada 100 united kingdom 100 denmark 100 austria 99 finland 100 france 99 ireland 100 switzerland 99 italy 100 spain 99 japan 100 belgium 98 new zealand 100 germany 92 netherlands 100 united states 21 norway 100 sources: organization for economic cooperation and development (paris), health data file, 1991: u.s.: national center for heath statistics, advance data, no. 201, june 18, 1991. "we're number one in percentage of population without health insurance. "the main reason we're number one in percentage of population without health insurance is that we're last in percentage of population covered by public health insurance. only about one fifth of americans qualify for the main types of public health insurance available in the united states: medicare, medicaid, and veterans' benefits.(2l) "of those who don't qualify, many have private insurance.(22) but almost one in seven americans (34 million people--most living in families with a working adult) have no insurance at all, and one in four (63 million) have been without insurance for a substantial period of time during the last two years. many more have inadequate coverage, meaning that they could be bankrupted by a major illness.(23) in fact, one health care expert says that because only 1 percent of the population has private longterm-care insurance, "virtually any american could be impoverished by a prolonged disabling illness."(24) additionally, as many as 40 percent of those eligible for some forms of public aid do not receive it. these gaps in health care result directly from the fact that the united states is the only major industrialized nation (other than south africa) without a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage while controlling _we're number one, where america stands -- and falls -- in the new world order_ by andrew l shapiro. new york, may 1992, vintage books, a division of random house. $10 paperback. isbn 0-679-73893-2 [transcribed by jhwoodar@well.sf.ca.us (joe woodard)] ``america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor. this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. the facts it reveals will startle you. they may depress you. but ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation.'' -robert b. reich, author of the work of nations 
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 such a hostage situation has taken place on numerous occasions with the result of the police trying to take the place by force and the result being the death of the hostages and the gunmen. however, this is the first time i've heard of the blame landing squarely on the police. in this country we have a policy of not negotiating a back down from terrorists and hostage takers since that only encourages other terrorists and hostage takers. not an accurate analogy. david koresh did not take a bunch of hostages and then call the batf with a ransom note. you make it sound as if the batf showed up to save those children in the first place. i have some interesting news for youbatf has absolutely no jurisdiction in child abuse cases. it seems to me that the batf showed up, took the davidians hostage. then the fbi showed up, negotiated to have a few of the hostages released, but were unable to keep the batf from killing the rest of the poor people trapped inside the compound. steve martin steve_martin@msmgate.mrg.uswest.com "the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." thomas jefferson 
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 ((fluffy bi fantasy squelched)) dear mr. elf, please post this shit where it belongs. i believe you know where that is, you overweening weenie-biter. 
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 gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (gary l dare) writes... again, they can't force a private entity to spring to life to pay them. so the government, by sheer economic force, has basically cleared the basic-care market for itself. the only way to test this would be for some really daring person to start up, from scratch, in alberta and/or quebec, a health insurance company offering basic care. crazy? yes, but that's almost how mci got started. however, the concept of risks is well known by insurance actuaries and no private firm can get the kind of amortization that the public pools can get. and since health insurance gets spent, that doesn't sit well with the insurance ceo's ... and you get a situation like in the u.s. where rates keep going up to catch up. see what i mean? it's a government monopoly. sure ... because it's a non-market phenomenom and the free market can't solve it. even our private insurance says that .... and remember ... last year quebec proposed giving the least risky parts of basic care to the private sector ... and they balked. like you said...why should they? .... and wants no part of it. by your own arguments, if you don't want the provincial plan, you're basically up a creek. yes ... but in our culture, arguing against it is like arguing for national defence by means of warlords. true. according to polls i've read (usually in the sort of simpleminded stuff you were initally responding to) something like 60% of americans would like canadian-style health care, whereas only 3% of canadians would like it our way. i'd be interested to know why there are that many (3% of canada's population is about a million or so people). canada is saturated by american media. while pundits come on cable and talk about how awful our health care is supposed to be, what people experience up north ends up not differing from what they see portrayed on american television in movies (i.e., same infrastructure, different insurance make-up). yet they know not of any insurance problems, and have no idea of what an hmo is ... but having lots of british tv as well, they know that they don't like nhs. someone must have a reason to argue against it, valid or not-what kind of people are they? the polls that you refer to, for the canadian data, are from the annual july 1st polls conducted for macleans (our major english newsmagazine) by decima research ... decima president allen gregg is considered one of the world's top poll researchers, and mulroney's conservatives have relied on him to keep in power in the face of impossible election situations. the american polls are harris polls, and have been reposted on usenet a few times and probably will again. i'm sorta suspicious myself, 'cos maybe americans want universal coverage like canada --- i honestly doubt that most americans realize that we have private doctors and public and private hospitals (i.e., similiar health care infrastructure) and our "system" is basically pure insurance without hmo's. given recent turnarounds by the hiaa (endorsing universal coverage) and hostility to corporatist hmo's within the ama, and the complete silence vis a vis canada-bashing by the ama, i suspect that they're keeping the "secret" about canada up their sleeve. exactly. wouldn't you? until the idea of managed competition arose, there was no direct threat to stand-alone private practice. in the 1960's, the ama fought hmo's as corporatized socialist medicine ... part of the reason why we have only insurance, and no hmo's in canada 'cos that was part of the deal cut with the cma. i've also read that the three biggest american hmos can be compared straight up against some of the smaller canadian provinces (in the maritimes) and they spend something like $300-500 less per patient. maybe it does help. the american hmo's can still "cream" and they probably cover a smaller geographic area than even our smallest provinces. geography, again. some of them are spread out across the whole country, i think. but each site is probably compact, and the clientele are creamed. and don't forget that hmo's place caps on your coverage, and often won't tell you about additional procedures you could get otherwise (despite that you might be willing to pay for it). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gary l. dare gld@columbia.edu go winnipeg jets go!!! gld@cunixc.bitnet selanne + domi ==> stanley 
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 i've already posted results of a survey of homosexuals, that shows how profoundly promiscuous homosexual men are. in urban areas. among those who had access to gay bathhouses. 
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 i really don't want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs. if you really want to, we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is! read: i do not know what the fuck i'm talking about, and am not eager to make a fool of myself. oh, you foolish person. i do know what the fuck i'm talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents: safer, cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs; reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically; etc, etc if you would like to prove how clueless you are, we can get into why - again a lot of wasted posts that i don't think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little from a pragmatic standpoint, there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway. shall we criminalize alcohol again? if the re-legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy. the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison vice statutes serve only to make it more expensive for the rich and more dangerous for the poor, as tim so eloquently put it. people will, however, and so it shall be if the government (by the people) decides that these vices are detrimental to the society as a whole. and why, pray tell, is aids "victim" in snear quotes? are you of the revisionist sort that thinks there is no such thing as the aids plauge? or do they just deserve it? the overwhelmingly vast majority (get the point) of aids cases are contracted thru behavioral choices. nuff said. 
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 a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than their testimony would be a contradiction of the plaintiff's charge (and witness) that the occupant moved after the impact, indicating he was alive and trying to get out (and provoking all sorts of sympathetic 'gross, burned alive' reactions). it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed? shouldn't that be up to a jury? what kind of witnesses? if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident, or were otherwise directly involved (e.g., paramedics, emergency room doctors, etc.), then they should have been used at the first trial. you don't get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses. they are two witnesses who didn't come forth until after the first trial. while it would be "tough luck" for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand, imo this constitutes "new evidence". if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data, note that the loser can *always* find such witnesses. if this were grounds for a new trial, then the loser could *always* get a new trial, and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner (and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses). no, i support rulings that deny new trials on those grounds. "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 if you look through this newsgroup, you should be able to find clinton's proposed "wiretapping" initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems. this 'initiative" has been up before congress for at least the past 6 months, in the guise of the "fbi wiretapping" i strongly urge you to begin considering your future. i strongly urge you to get your application for a passport in the mail soon. i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas, into protected bank accounts, while you are still able. 
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 what kind of witnesses? if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident, or were otherwise directly involved (e.g., paramedics, emergency room doctors, etc.), then they should have been used at the first trial. you don't get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses. they are two witnesses who didn't come forth until after the first trial. while it would be "tough luck" for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand, imo this constitutes "new evidence". the test isn't whether gm knew--otherwise that would reward gm for its stupidity. the test is whether gm reasonably should have known of their existence. it works both ways--if gm had won the trial, and the plaintiff turned up two witnesses who came forward after the first trial who should have been located beforehand, too bad, so sad--no new trial. like tim said, you don't get a new civil trial because you screwed up the first time around. unlike the criminal justice system, repose is much more important in the civil justice system. ted frank | thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu | i'm sorry, the card says "moops." the u of c law school | standard disclaimers | 
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 tes: just _try_ to justify the war on drugs, i _dare_ you! a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took 5 hits of acid is still having trouble "aiming" for the bowl when he takes a dump. don't as me how, i just have seen the results. boy, i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head. i'll answer you're sarcasm with more sarcasm: boy, it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head, given that example! (issue: your friend _got_ his drugs--legal or not legal, he'll continue to get them. issue #2: why should _i_, as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not "screwed up" have to pay for this idiot's problems? he's not doing anybody any harm except himself. the wod, on the other hand, is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood. tell me why i should sacrafice this to that!). and not only that, but if the drugs were legal we could have pharmacists instead of pushers selling them, and the pharmacists could be obligated to not only inform the purchasers of the dangers of drug use, but also show them how to use the drugs in relatively safe ways. and the dangers of impurities (responsible for much of the suffering that drugs cause) would be all but eliminated. - dave borden borden@m5.harvard.edu 
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 |>so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the |>evidence. now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights. |i don't know about everybody else, but to me, they should have been |convicted because of the evidence, which in my mind was quite |sufficient. what evidence are you aware of. what was reported in the media, or all of the evidence that was presented at the trial. this sounds to me a lot like the first rodney king 5 trial. a bunch of people who saw 10 to 15 seconds out of a several minute long video, decided that they knew more than people who had sat through a two week trial. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 |> let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues. as |> i've noted before, i'm not necessarily disputing the benefits of |> eliminating anti-competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers, |> barbers, etc. one need not, however, swallow the entire libertarian |> agenda to accomplish this end. just because one grants the benefits of |> allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his/her services without |> regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be |> free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention. |> (as some/many libertarians would argue.) |> on a case by case basis, the cost/benefit ratio of government regulation |> is obviously worthwhile. the libertarian agenda, however, does not call |> for this assessment. it assumes that the costs of regulation (of any |> kind) always outweigh its benefits. this approach avoids all sorts of |> difficult analysis, but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic, |> to say the least. |> i have no objection to an analysis of medical care, education, |> national defense or local police that suggests a "free market" can provide |> a more effective, efficient means of accomplishing social objectives |> than is provided through "statist" approaches. with some notable |> exceptions, however, i do not see such nitty-gritty, worthwhile |> analysis being carried out by self-professed libertarians. excellently put! even as a libertarian, i have to admit government does do some things i like. there is a beautiful performing arts complex in ft. lauderdale that was partially built with tax dollars (i don't know how much was private and how much was stolen, i mean public) but it is beautiful and i enjoy it. (keep in mind, though, most of the people in the city will never attend a single performance there, so they might feel differently about having to help pay for it.) however, i have to disagree about it being desireable or efficient to give government intervention-power on a case-by-case basis. in fact, we have a lot better luck maintaining our freedom of speech precisely because it is not decided on a case-by-case basis as much as other issues. judges decide whether political speech is allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office. they do not try to decide just whether pro-nazi, pro-choice, pro-life, or pro-tax political speech should be allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office. you can imagine the result if right to free speech was decided by the majority on a case-by-case basis. not so with economic issues. government does tell taxi-drivers exactly what they can charge, but not the bus lines or the lawyers. just as it is not desireable to decide rights of free speech on a case-by-case basis, we should not decide rights to free enterprise on a case-by-case basis. there is hope that a government can be restricted from interferring with free enterprise. but there is no hope, in my opinion, of having a government that interferes with free enterprise in an "efficient" manner; i call it political market failure. thus, if you value freedom and the abundance it produces, you have to swallow the "whole libertarian agenda." roger collins 
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 just _try_ to justify the war on drugs, i _dare_ you! a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took 5 hits of acid is still having trouble "aiming" for the bowl when he takes a dump. don't as me how, i just have seen the results. gee, the war on drugs has been going on for all these years and they're still getting drugs! imagine that... my friends who like grass (i don;t agree but it's pretty harmless) are unable to get it, yet i know a number of places where someone stupid enough could get crack cocaine within a half hour of leaving my office. the war on drugs has been completely unsuccessful, yet it's lead to really horrible abuses of peoples' constitutional rights. i don't see how a thinking person could justify it. 
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 speaking of vat: did anyone see cnn's report yesterday (4/15)? it was quite hillarious (no pun intended). they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing, graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage. when they got to the final stage (the actual retail sale) the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be "the amount paid by consumers." in other words, they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load. these are not journalists--they're lap dogs. one of the commentators on one of the big three news programs described the vat (which ain't a sales tax) as a tax "government's love." i was even surprised he got the reason right: it effectively hides the majority of the tax the consumer has to pay *from* the consumer. it's kind of like they do with cars. you pay far more for automobile taxes than most people realize because it's contained in two dozen different taxes, everything from your license to your tires to your gasoline. david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough examination of american men's sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. actually, what the study shows is that 2 percent of the men surveyed *said* they engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent *said* they considered themselves exclusively homosexual. the point being that what people say and what they acutally do may be different. it is interesting that this clip from the newspaper did not mention that difference. maybe it is conservative media bias. :-) the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect ------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1993 ex-twins' jack morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (world series mvp!) 
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 in <1993apr15.045651.6892@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@midway.uchicago.edu sez: no, i'm saying any long term investor (the ones likely to have large capital gains) would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a) might disappear in any given year and b) be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains. to which my response is--so what? not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors. more than enough of them aren't for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised. i never said that *everyone* would find this advantageous. i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort "trends". even if brett's eventual-return figures were correct -- and they clearly weren't -- he'd still be wrong about the cause for the '86 blip because he fails to consider 2 basic factors: you misunderstand. i'm not trying to prove a *cause* for anything. merely pointing out that ted's assertion that the "blip" in revenues was "caused" by selling to avoid the tax can't be proven. 1) as ted notes, not everyone is a long-term investor. one might find oneself, as i did in late 1986, anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings. given the choice between waiting a few weeks (and taking an extra tax hit) or selling in december with preferential tax treatment, only a fool would choose the former. not disputed. 2) the fact that brett can now construct _post hoc_ calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point. there was plenty of _money_-style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late 1986 to "sell now and save on taxes." in case anyone missed it, there was no shortage of similar advice late last year (in the nytimes, e.g.), even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law (as in 1986), but merely on the *assumption* that clinton would raise tax rates (without capping cg taxes, contrary to the current proposal). it works for any situation. if you believe the market is going up, don't sell. if believe it's not, sell. but then you'd be selling anyways, wouldn't so where is the evidence that a large number of people suddenly decided that the higher taxes meant they should sell before the year was out? there isn't any. ted's saying that the increase over the previous year is "proof" of that proposition, but i'm saying you can't know that the trend of increasing capital gains revenues wouldn't account for a lot of that increase. 1986 was the height of the housing boom, remember. people were "trading up" like mad. it's nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest. like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys, though, this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world. "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 well, it seems the "national sales tax" has gotten its very own cnn news logo! cool. that means we'll be seeing it often. man, i sure am glad that i quit working ( or taking this seriously ) in 1990. if i kept busting my ass, watching time go by, being frustrated, i'd be pretty damn mad by i just wish i had the e-mail address of total gumby who was saying that " clinton didn't propose a nst ". actually, jerry brown essentially did...and clinton, in his demagogue persona, condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year. however.... why don't the republicans get their act together, and say they will support a broad-based vat that would have to be visible (the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe) and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform, the republicans are, in general, fighting any tax increase. there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase (btw, what is different between canada's tax and most of europe's that makes it "visible?") force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum. this would require a constitutional amendment, and congress enjoys raising taxes too much to restrict themselves like that. (besides, with the 2/3 majority necessary to pull that off you'd have a difficult time "forcing" anything like that.) why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile... shift the tax burden from investment to consumption, and get health care reform, and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop. primarily because it's a practical impossibility to "freeze" tax rates. however, this is something that bothers me. we're always talking about "consumer confidence" and "consumer spending" as gauges for the economy. if they really are important, wouldn't shifting taxes to consumption provide a disincentive to spend money? david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 this was in wed. wsj. [start] the white house, seeking to mount public pressure on gop senators, bombarded news outlets in some senator's home states with news releases warning that certain projects may not be funded if the $16billion stimulus bill isn't none of the projects mentioned are actually in the bill, rather they are part of a wish list that may be funded from the $2.56 billion in community development block grants. [end] i could have sworn i heard a bunch of clintonites going on and on, raving about how dishonest it was that the rebublicans were taking items from this wish list in order to ridicule this bill. now that clinton is using that same list in order to garner support for the bill, are you guys going to do the honarable thing and say that clinton is being dishonest. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it (he admits it) the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on. as a libertarian (with a small l) who voted for clinton, i think that he should abolish the selective service and the draft. if his conscience forbade him to go to war in vietnam, it should forbid him to perpetuate this system of government-sanctioned slavery. agreed. congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf. the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with. the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to 40 (navy times) and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class. politically, general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not. if our government would pay attention to serious domestic issues (the economy) and choose to stay out of other people's wars (iraq, bosnia, somalia), we would not be in this fix. an anyway, couldn't the jobs be replaced by improving our domestic situation? (i'm not for continued deficit spending, but if clinton and congress want to spend, i'd rather they improve the infrastructure than fight other people's wars.) in addition, more bases need to be closed. probably long beach naval station and others. the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of 320 ships. the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress. a novel idea: getting away from naval bases, what about refurbishing decommissioned air force bases as airports? this would be so much cheaper than building them from the ground up (denver's new airport is one of the most appalling examples of pork-barreling and cronyism i have seen in my lifetime). even if no more airports are needed, i'm sure bill gates or ross perot would love to have their own private airfields, and the money from their purchases could be applied to the public debt. jon dunn< * all e-mail flames will be deleted without reading * 
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 eliminate the c-17 transport. wrong. we need its capability. sure it has its problems, ........ if you read aviation week, the c-5 line can be reopened and the c-5s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program. politically, though, the c-17 is popular pork. i do read av week and don't remember this. could you supply the date of the magazine? aviation week march 15 1993 p.48 "the cbo estimates that matching the capability of 100 c-17s would require 70 c-5s at a total cost of $14.4 billion. this option is still more than $10 billion cheaper than completing the c-17 program, which the cbo estimates will cost $24.7 billion." sorry, i was nine billion off. the c-5s would be ten billion cheaper. as for c-17 vs. c-5 , the c-17 can't carry as much but has more capability ( read : can land at smaller airfields of which there are more of ) than the c-5. now is the c-17 pork? it depends on whether your job relies on it or not. :) in california right now, i would say that it is not pork since due to peace dividend so many people are out of work. well, california voted overwhelmingly for change, right? the argument to continue military programs just to support jobs is a poor one. it's kept quite a few bases open that should have been closed years ago, wasting billions of taxes. the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress. -- marc mueller huh? shouldn't that read "the question is whether a social-pork happy les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a jobs-pork happy congress." -- marc mueller 
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 you mean, since your philosophy took over, the economy has almost excuse me, *my* philosophy? you don't have any idea what *my* philosophy is. the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of prevailing economic philosophies. but then, economics is hardly a science. in my lifetime, your philosophy -- socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state -- has been in ascendancy. yo--earth to clayton--*my* philosophy? i have never discussed this with you. i know it's a minor point, but, gee, dude, you have no idea what economic and political principles i adhere to. but don't let that stop you--you're on a roll. just ascribe to me whatever you want--i know you'll choose wisely. after all, i *do* believe in personal responsibility. no, i mean exactly what i wrote--the welfare system of the new deal is wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs. absolutely. so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism. duh. what else would you *expect* a socialist to do? flash-in-the-pan? no, your subculture has utterly dominated the tv and movie industries for two decades now. *my* subculture? my, we're getting personal. the only subculture i see dominating the tv and movie industries is *money*. if you'll buy it, they'll sell it. and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have shown, they're *very* sensitive about what sells. whatever happened to personal responsibility, anyway? or am i personally responsible for the decline in that, too? to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves, yes. (a) just when and where have i encouraged people not to be responsible for themselves? be specific--but do make up random dates and heinous acts as you see fit. (b) you and i have encouraged many people to do many things. how does that in any way make our audiences less responsible for their actions? is there a finite amount of responsibility, so (cf. conservation of energy) as i become more responsible for an occurrence by encouraging it the actual perpetrator becomes correspondingly less so? at what point does the perpetrator become completely innocent altogether? you know, this lends a whole new meaning to the term "the moral high ground". oddly enough, all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage to find employment almost immediately. maybe she needs to move to a cheaper part of the country, where jobs are plentiful, and the cost of living is lower. the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets--squalor city. tell me about all these places where it's cheap to live and jobs are abundant--i'll pass them on. sonoma county. i will pass the info on. out of curiosity, what kind of jobs would these be? what's the demographic mix wrt race, age, culture? lots of employment, and utterly surrounded by socialists. well, i suppose that's the sort of environment that would attract socialists, or at least not dissuade them. no, it's that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists -- all the spoiled rich kids, feeling guilty about their wealth. but not guilty enough to give it away -- they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away. life's a bitch, ain't it? man, you've got to get out of fornicalia--have you considered someplace perhaps geographically distant but politically more friendly to you, like, say, indiana? or maybe utah? well, i doubt that much of this goes to drugs--there isn't much left after buying food, and there is very little in the first place. sure, you read about such cases now and then, but that's what makes them news. show me your statistics about afdc abuse. i can tell you that relatives i have known, the drugs came first, the food was secondary. i don't doubt it, but unless you can show me statistics to the contrary i will persist in my apparently dogmatic socialist belief (hey, if *you* say so) that most afdc money really does--for better or worse in the long term--feed fdcs. ken perlow ***** ***** 16 apr 93 ****** ****** 27 germinal an cci ***** ***** gadfly@ihspc.att.com ...l'audace! *** *** toujours de l'audace! encore de l'audace! 
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 copyright (c) edward a. ipser, jr., 1993 this means we can't quote ed without his permission. no using these lists in your .sigs, folks! oh, darn. okay, okay, let's stop slamming ipser, and get on with making fun of other 
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 a good two-party system will bring italy efficient, accountable government. yeah, just like we have here in the us. walter g. rolandi usenet: rolandi@andy.hssc.scarolina.edu internet: rolandi@hsscls.hssc.scarolina.edu 
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 #compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, #and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that #homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general #male population. did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority (homosexuality) are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority (highly promiscious)? i didn't think that you did. -greg hennessy, university of virginia usps mail: astronomy department, charlottesville, va 22903-2475 usa internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu uucp: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w 
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 |> excerpts from "insight" magazine, march 15, 1993 *paranoia part deleted.* isn't insight magazine published by the mooneys? 
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 perhaps 1%, but most likely not more than 2%. a new study (discrediting kinsey) says so. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | my understanding from my psycology classes is that the percentage is more like 10-12% world wide. i would really like to know your source for the 1-2% figure. riyadh moosa. sdsu-chemistry. cosc0000@ucssun1.sdsu.edu 
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough examination of american men's sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2 percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual. the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the 10 percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report. 1) so what? so there are less gays, then the gays claim. 2) it will be interesting to see the reaction when 2.5million queers gather in washington dc. after all if there are only 6million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history... dream on. abortion and african-american civil rights rallies don't even bring in half of that. the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. don't forget that 25% had 20 or more partners.... i was wondering why i wasn't getting laid. compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual? or is that number to inconvient for you.... if it's more, then who cares? it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. fuck off actually, i bet you more gay/bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men, because more of them could have the "option" of living a straight life, and with social pressures, probably would at least try. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . did you know that is is a fact that homosexuality was comparatively high in hitler's storm troopers (sa) before he came to power. i wonder if they got to put the triangles on themselves...... 
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 the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners. the median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3. compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population. it's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are. isn't is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed (imho) source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men. only the most comprehensive survey on sexuality in 50 years. it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well. in my opinion, orientation has nothing to do with it. chance and size have nothing in common on the multimillion number scale we are talking about. men are men and they all like sex. i am a gay male. i have had sex three times in my life, all with the same man. before that, i was a virgin. so... whose promiscuous? nobody said that you were. chill. just because someone is gay doesn't mean they have no morals. just because someone is heterosexual doesn't mean they do. look at the world.... well said. statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero... actually, the kinsley report in 1947(or 48?) used a high percentage of prisoners so........... 
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 i believe the mow plans and handing out some sort of wristband thingy, and basing their count on those. i see two problems with this. one, can they get *everybody* to take one (and only one)? two, they couldn't possibly have been able to choose a color/design that won't clash with *somebody's* outfit! ...and three. the ads i've seen for the wristbands indicate they're charging $5 a wristband. as i've seen them, the wristbands look like clear plastic with multi-coloured "rainbow" threads in them labeled "1993 march on washington 999999" (the "999999" being your particular wristband number). certainly not *everyone* at the march on washington will be willing to shell out five bucks for a piece of plastic. i bought mine at the mow storefront. its not plastic, its woven material. but i think you miss the point. its not about the five bucks in your pocket, its about supporting the march and helping to pay for all the printed materail and scehdulkes and organisation and... all leading up to the literal *birth* of queer visibility in this country. up to this point all our news coverage has been driven by events thatb happen to us. this event is happening by our direct action. of course the last mow was the same thing but they ignored us. i guess that was just labor pains. perhaps they will ignore us again, in which case we will come in even largeer numbers next time. lst night in dc there were so many queers out and about you could hardly get in any place. i suspect thatb over the next two days that will become exponentially to my mind this is a physical bsuting down of the collective closet of queer invisibility. the five bucks is insignificant. lux ./. owen d. owen rowley onr@netcom.com ( also owen@autodesk.com ) [ eu-phoria: a state of well being ] euphoria is my natural state, i do what i enjoy and an abundance of all good fortune comes to me for it. 
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 oh.. just a note, my usually poor typing is made even more dificult by the small keyboard and mutiple connections i am piped through in order to access news while here in dc. i'm really not trying to irritate the spelling mavens :-) lux ./. owen d. owen rowley onr@netcom.com ( also owen@autodesk.com ) [ eu-phoria: a state of well being ] euphoria is my natural state, i do what i enjoy and an abundance of all good fortune comes to me for it. 
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 on 22 apr 1993 16:59:28 -0700, turmoil@halcyon.com (tim crowley) said: tim> nntp-posting-host: nwfocus.wa.com yes we've heard that the survivors are now saying that. we've also seen the videotape which shows that the fire started in two or three different places which weren't near the tank. i have not seen the tape on cnn. which network did you see it on? tim> i saw the film on cnn *as* it happend. it was clear from that tim> tape that the fire started in one location. right where the tim> tank was attacking, and then had pulled back. there were not tim> several spots where the fire started, it started in one tim> location and was spread in the direction of the heavy wind. tim> the fbi claims to have seen or filmed several starting tim> points. yet they keep this hidden. they have spread so much tim> lies. well i guess if i was responsible for the mass murder tim> of 80 people who were exercising constitutional rights, i tim> would lie about it too... gosh, tim, you must have seen a different live broadcast than i did. while the smoke did emerge from one place initially, it was a considerable distance from the tank, and in a very short time, fire appeared at several places a good distance apart from there. then there's that nagging question about why, out of all those people, only a few made any attempts to escape or save the children. if it were me, with my child, [and i wasn't committing suicide,] i believe i would have made some attempt to at least save the child. as it was, at least one of the survivors was attempting to go back into the fire when they were physically removed. no one lifted a finger to bring out a child, apparently. how do you explain that? and the two survivors who claimed to have doused the place with lantern oil and set the fire (no doubt on david's orders). [at least until the lawyers talked to them.] tim> and also, why have they not yet released the search warrant???? that *is* a good question. maybe because it would be a further embarrassment, seeing as how the atf went in there in dirty harry mode as stupidly as it all was handled, i find it difficult to believe that the entire fbi has completely gone corrupt under a new administration less than 100 days old. stupidity and bad decisions and plans have always been with us. they just had an alignment at waco. tim> seeeeee ya turmoil@halcyon.com fuck the police!!!! see? freedom of speech abounds. "yeh, buddy.. | larry@psl.nmsu.edu (larry cunningham)| _~~_ i've got your computer! | % physical science laboratory | (o)(-) right here!!" | new mexico state university | /..\ (computer this!) | las cruces, new mexico, usa 88003 | <> disclaimer: opinions expressed here are correct, mine, and not psls or nmsus.. oh sure, we could do it the _easy_ way. but it just wouldn't be the cowboy way. 
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 [motor-voter stuff] my friend, after the election, brought up the point that it would enable more people to vote, however, since it makes it easier to get to the place of registration. he brought up the analogy that if there were only one place to vote, say, in alaska- would it be excessive and wasteful to petition to have more places to vote? this is a similar idea- a way to encourage more people to vote by making it more easily accessible. i, not knowing where i stood, played devil's advocate and said - well, would you have the taxpayer's money go to busing for those people that have trouble making it to dmv, then? where does the right to vote merge with the right to vote easily? where should we draw the lines? well, there does have to be a line. and to be honest, extending voter registration to dmvs is hardly analogous to having only one place for registration in alaska and opening a new one in atlanta. more is not always better once you've passed a certain point. my friend said that that is obviously an extreme and that actually the motor-voter bill would save money because no longer would the city have to pay someone to sit in the town hall and spend all his/her time filing those things- they'd just be at the push of a button or the filling out of an x at dmv. so i (actually someone else, but there's no need to confuse this anymore) countered again saying that wouldn't congress, *as always*, get exorbitent budgets and fund committees to orchestrate and oversee the implementation.... the argument went back and forth forever- ranging from whether or not it's better to have more people voting, whether that is even relevant, etc.... just looking for some more opinions. anybody got 'em??? i thought the motor voter bill passed. in any case, my experiance with tennessee's voter registration system (which you can register with by mail, by the way) is that nobody who is interested in voting is being denied access to registration. all it requires is just the tiniest bit of interest on the registrant's part and thinking about the election once in the eleven months prior to it. (once you register it's good unless you miss for years worth of elections of move.) it's easy to register now. i simply don't see the value in going out and trying to get people registered who don't have enough gumption to even write and have the proper forms sent to them. how can we expect responsible decisions out of these people? david veal univ. of tenn. div. of cont. education info. services group pa146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "i still remember the way you laughed, the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft; i'm beginning to think you don't love me anymore." - "weird al" 
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 since 1979, the members of the european parliament (the parliamentary assemby of the european community) have been elected directly by the citizens of the member states. before, the members of the european parliament (meps) were just members of national parliaments (mnps) elected by and from among their peers. in the european parliament, every member state has a fixed number of seats, which increases less than proportionally with the population. once in five years, a general european election is being held, in which the citizens of all member states choose their representatives to the european parliament. next elections are due in 1994. now the voting system for these european elections still differs from one country to another. although the european treaty enabling the direct election of the meps requires a uniform voting system, up to now every country has just used its own system, more or less the same one used for national elections. british meps are elected in a first-past-the-post system with one mep per district; nearly all other states have chosen a system with proportional representation. but then in some countries (france, italy) meps are allowed to be a mnp as well, whilst in others they are not (belgium, netherlands). the european parliament is now working on a uniform election system for its own members, so that every candidate should have the same regulations to comply with, regardless of the member state (s)he wants to be elected for. i would like to know what you people out there think of the following questions: 1. do you think it is necessary to have uniform regulations or should every member state continue to use its own regulations (for european elections that is)? 2. do you think a system of majority voting should be implemented, with one or more meps per district, or would you prefer a system with proportional representation (for the whole of the community or per state, per region, per district?). 3. do you think the european commission (or just its president) should be directly elected too, or should it be appointed by the european parliament, or by the joint member state governments as it is now? 4. the maastricht treaty allows subjects of member states to stand for election in another member state they are residing in. do you think you would or could vote for a foreigner if his/her ideas appeal to you? 5. do you think meps should be allowed to be a member of a national parliament or a regional parliament too? or a member of a national or regional government 6. the european parliament now has meetings in both strasbourg and brussels. meps themselves are for a complete move to brussels in great majority, but political compromises between the governments of the member states stick to the status quo. do you approve of this or do you think the european parliament should meet in one city only, and if yes, which? please post your answers to eunet.politics, to which all followups are automatically directed. if you do not have access to that group, please mail your answer directly to me and i will post it for you. i hope many of you will take the time to post their views on this matter. roland siebelink - lokaal b.034 centrum voor de studie van nieuwe vrije universiteit brussel scom/nmit media, informatie en telecommunicatie pleinlaan 2 - 1050 brussel - belgium tel. direkt: +32.2.641 24 15 e-mail <rcsiebel@vnet3.vub.ac.be> tel. centrum: +32.2.641 24 12 talk <rcsiebel@is2.vub.ac.be> fax centrum: +32.2.641 28 61 
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 (not a boomer) says: (david here's a question for those of you far more informed about health care than i am. my almanac, quoting oecd health data lists u.s. public health expenditures for 1990 as being 5.2% of gdp, or 42.4% of total health expenditures. are we *really* paying 42.4% of our expenditures to insure 21% of our population? heh, no doubt more "evidence" that the government is more efficient than 'evil' for profit health care. proving once again that brett has a major thinking problem... two groups that the government insure are the elderly and the "medically an needy" (those who have impoverished themselves through spending for medical care). the typical elderly person spends 3.5 times what a person under age 65. the typical medically needy person spends about 10 times what the average person does. you've got to adjust those data, brett. these words and thoughts are my own. * i am not bound to swear ** ** ** ** * allegiance to the word of any ** ** ** ** ** ** * master. where the storm carries ** ** ** * me, i put into port and make d. shea, psu * myself at home. 
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 cancel private health insurance? when government care that only covers 20% of the population consumes 42% of the spending for health care? not! national health expenditures: 1960 to 1990 (includes puerto rico and outlying areas.) year health services and supplies ($billions) private public 1960 $19.8 $5.7 (22% of total) 1970 $44.1 $24.9 (56% of total) 1980 $140.7 $98.1 (41% of total) 1990 $374.8 $268.6 (42% of total) [source: american almanac, page 97. 1992-3 edition] now you understand where most of that 12.2% of gnp is going--to waste. by these figures, private insurance is spending 58% of the money to cover 4 times as many people. go figure. "there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction." sean o'casey in _the white plague_ by frank herbert. 
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 pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (paul bartholomew) writes to clayton cramer: when are you going to stop lying and admit that the whole crusade is based on your own personal hatred, fear, and obsession? you need help, mr. cramer. the saddest thing is that most people, like cramer's wife, learn dislike for homosexuality early in childhood. clayton, however, is so impressionable, that he let his wife sucker him on this issue, as a full-grown adult. 
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 cancel private health insurance? when government care that only covers 20% of the population consumes 42% of the spending for health care? not! national health expenditures: 1960 to 1990 (includes puerto rico and outlying areas.) year health services and supplies ($billions) private public 1960 $19.8 $5.7 (22% of total) 1970 $44.1 $24.9 (56% of total) 1980 $140.7 $98.1 (41% of total) 1990 $374.8 $268.6 (42% of total) [source: american almanac, page 97. 1992-3 edition] now you understand where most of that 12.2% of gnp is going--to waste. by these figures, private insurance is spending 58% of the money to cover 4 times as many people. go figure. the private insurance industry skims the cream off the milk...simple. 
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 in a debate about the student government here at our university, a question was raised by one student senator: "why should i represent people who didn't vote?" and by implication, this raises a different question: "why should i represent people who didn't vote for me?" i feel that there are many good reasons that anyone elected to public office (in student government or any other government) should strive to represent all the people in their constituency (class of '95 or a geographical area, or whatever). i would like some help from others in phrasing a reasonable argument on this topic. thanks. followups are directed to talk.politics.misc, but email is preferred. jim ault, its systems programmer, rpi, troy, ny 12180 usa aultj@rpi.edu <>< 
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 : >>|> homosexuals are vicious, screwed-up, often : >>|> really evil people. : >>|> i've learned quite a bit in the last two years. evil, vicious, : >>|> dishonest, lying scum is the only way to describe homosexuals. : >>|> clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! : i believe that clayton is full of shit. who could believe anyone so biased : and so obviously misaligned? if he were the slightest bit open-minded, he wouldn't : write such slanted smears. especially to generalize an entire group of people. i would say this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black! really now. why is this the pot calling the kettle black? i am stating that a person who shows a continually biased opinion is close-minded and that his opinion should be ignored. clayton is stating that a group of at least two million (1%) american citizens are evil vicious malicious child-molesters. here's a hypothetical question... if clayton said something like "all those niggers are really stupid." (please don't be offended, i'm not racist but merely using an example of clayton's malign logic). and then said he read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school, i bet he wouldn't have your support. yet he can claim that all homosexuals are dishonest, evil, lying child molesters without *personally* having a single homosexual friend or acquaintance and you'll sit there and support him. god created a place for bigots. it's called hell and clayton is going to burn there for a long time. i pray for him to find in his heart the christian values he espouses so that he can learn to love his gay brothers and sisters, because anyone with so much hatred in his soul coulld never be righteous. 
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 russotto@eng.umd.edu (matthew t. russotto) writes... russotto@eng.umd.edu (matthew t. russotto) writes... we're hearing it. it sure rings true-- it's consistent in a way that mass suicide by fire is not. this survivor is also saying that they were trapped inside by the damage done by the tanks. why is an accidental fire more plausible than a mass suicide, considering that the davidians were an apocalyptic cult with a history of armed violence? if the fbi has reason to lie about the cause of the fire, if it resulted from their own negligence, then the bd survivors also have reason to lie if they started the blaze. the fbi claims the fire was set simultaneously in three places. they claim the building was filled with tear gas. electricity was cut off, tanks were rolling all around. how did the bds co-ordinate the setting of the fire? it's fairly simple. it was decided to burn the place down, and more than one agent was dispatched to set the fires in separate parts of the compound. i doubt that "simultaneously" means "at the exact same time" in this case. it likely means "close enough together to preclude them from being part of the same fire." the fbi claims that men with torches set the fires-- but haven't released any evidence of this, though it seems inconcievable that they don't have any if it was true. they might be waiting until the evidence comes in from the site, and the investigation is at least well underway. all of the bds previous actions were aimed towards their survival, not their death. the same could be said of jonestown. the idea that kerosene lamps would be all over the place (with electricity cut off) makes sense. the idea that ramming tanks into the building would spill them and cause a fire makes sense. the possibility that the fbi wouldn't know this is nil. it wasn't simple maybe. then again, i've been suprised at what folks have missed in the past in similar situations. don't jump t oconclusions. _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 why is an accidental fire more plausible than a mass suicide, considering that the davidians were an apocalyptic cult with a history of armed violence? because the place was a tinder box with straw bales for insulation, and they wouldn't have time to die from smoke inhalation before the fire reached them. those people burned to death, a truly horrible and agonizingly painful way to die, which i don't think even a fanatic would willingly inflict on himself, let alone his family. you don't know much about the fall of diem's government in vietnam. or the traditional indian practice of suttee. people have been burning themselves to death (or willing to go through such and end) for political and religious reasons since the beginning of time. also, death from smoke inhalation is little better than dying from the flames themselves. think about breatning in searing toxic gasses. it's not pleasant. to anyone who remembered jim jones and who thought that mass suicide was a real possibility, self-immolation would simply not be the method of choice. then again, to a buddhist monk, it might be. to each his own. far more likely to be bombs, bullets, or poisoned kool-aid. that's not to say they definitely didn't do it - i don't make claims either way - but i find the idea implausible enough to want to see the gov't thoroughly inves- tigated to determine if _they_ started the fire by accident. i'm waiting to see what the government has, too. _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 blue cross is the government health insurance provider. oops? blue cross may well be the insurer for government workers in massachusetts as it is for a number of state and local governments, i don't know. but blue cross is certainly not a government agency. it is a private insurer. yes it is a private insurer that has to deal with government regulations concerning how it's employees are to be covered processed, etc. there are a mountain of forms that gov. employees have to go through. sorry, but this is a red herring. are you contending that the "mountain of forms" are processed by blue cross? having had blue cross insurance both as a government employee and as an employee of a private corporation, i saw no difference between the two sets of forms. moreover, the administrative costs associated with medicare/medicaid, the two primary forms of "government" insurance are considerably lower than the average for private insurance companies. (5% versus 14%-16%). if you have any evidence that blue cross bears a heavier burden in insuring government employees than private employees, post it. otherwise, try to stick to factual assertions. and as the original post implied, it is private insurers in the us whose administrative costs are significantly higher than the administrative costs of tax-supported health care systems in canada and elsewhere. only those that remain paper-bound and refuse to standardize. well now, that's an interesting defense of the "free enterprise" system. are you contending that it is government intervention that prevents private insurance companies from "standardizing?" in fact, it is true that some of the red-tape burden stems from the lack of standardization among the 1500 or so private insurers in the us, but it's a little difficult to understand how this is anything other than "free enterprise" at work. by the way, barron's, the bible of wall street, this week admitted that administrative costs were significantly lower in canada because "....a single-payer system is always cheaper...". guess even the "free enterprise advocates" are beginning to see the light. try again. why? my hmo provides good service at a low cost. and i don't have the government telling my doctors what they can and can not say about medical sorry, but you seem to be confusing proposals with health care reform with the bush administration's gag order on federally funded family planning clinics. there are no proposals that would control what your "doctor...can and cannot say about medical procedures." try again. steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 |>many environmentalists attributed the 1988 drought in the u.s. to global |>warming, but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in |educated and open minded environmentalists do not. one of the most effective come backs i have seen in a long time. everybody who disagrees with me is stupid and closed minded. no, what it means is that i, like a majority of environmental scientists/researchers, agree that el nino/la nina and the southern oscillations are the systems involoved in that climatic phenomena categorized by humans as a drought(1988). furthermore, in response to an earlier message, the 1992 u.s. est. output of sulfur dioxide (20 mill. tons) was equivalent to the entire output by the recent eruption of mt. pinautubo(sp.). currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx. 360 ppm, in the past 120,000 years it has never gone above 280 (this info was found using ice core samples from the joint french/russian/u.s. vostok project). furthermore, the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into the atmoshpere is about 0.6 ppb annually, it now sits at 3.5. this overwhelming data/info is found in the world resources doc. published by oxford university. the ozone hole in the northern and southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger and stickin' around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this data from government and international scientific institutions is. it is a pity, that, if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their limbaugh psycho babble, then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age. <my employer doesn't subscribe to my opinions, just the data. - disclaimer> 
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 [this is called notquotingtheentirearticle (tm). try it...] which you refer, please note that many religious beliefs evolved from basic, pragmatic principles of day-to-day living. if we had lived certainly many religious beliefs seem to be positive principles for everyday living. indeed, i believe it is the islamic religion which avoids alcohol (i apologize if i name the wrong religion) and that is certainly a physical positive in many respects. however, this proves nothing. just because something is a "basic, pragmatic principle of day-to-day living" today doesn't mean it evolved from the same. especially those beliefs and (mostly) positions held based on interpretations of the religion. religious beliefs come from many places but most will be backed up (after many levels of arguments) to "because that's how it is written." or "god says..." now i'm not faulting that but that is not a basic, pragmatic principle as you mean it in this context. it is a belief based on faith, which by definition is not necessarily backed up by logic. faith is a given. god is a absolute truth when arguing from religion. also, many religions would reject your thesis that their beliefs simply come from these day-to-day principles. in summation, if you wish to use religious arguments be prepared to back them up with "it says in the [fill in religious document here]," because most religions (things which at least i denote as religions) are based on the writings of or teachings of [fill in religious figure here]. note: religion is a charged topic and if i offended anyone regarding my references to god, i apologize. please insert your own sensible references, the argument should apply to nearly all kristofer (kmunn@tudor.com) - the opinions expressed within are solely those --------------------------- of the author and are subject to change when confronted with new information and logical, coherent arguments. 
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 ]furthermore, in response to an earlier message, the 1992 u.s. est. output of ]sulfur dioxide (20 mill. tons) was equivalent to the entire output by the recent ]eruption of mt. pinautubo(sp.). currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx. ]360 ppm, in the past 120,000 years it has never gone above 280 (this info ]was found using ice core samples from the joint french/russian/u.s. vostok ]project). furthermore, the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into ]the atmoshpere is about 0.6 ppb annually, it now sits at 3.5. this overwhelming ]data/info is found in the world resources doc. published by oxford university. good evidence. ]the ozone hole in the northern and southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger ]and stickin' around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this ]data from government and international scientific institutions is. it is a pity, that, ]if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their limbaugh ]psycho babble, then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with ]which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age. what ozone hole in the northern hemisphere? what exactly will happen if we get an ozone hole in the upper atmosphere? according to the senior chicken-little at nasa, as much more uv radiation as if one moved 100 miles south. certainly not the calamity that is being imagined by eco-lunatics. co2 is going up. so what. there's no evidence that the increase is due to burning fossil fuels, no evidence that increasing co2 will increase temperatures, and no evidience that raising temperatures will do anything but good--ie make millions of acres of tundra into productive life-bearing chris burian--- 
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 don't forget about the culture. sadly, we don't (as a society) look upon homosexuality as normal (and as we are all too well aware, there are alot of people who condemn it). as a result, the gay population is not encouraged to develop "non-promiscuous" relationships. in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships. it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral. "my, if we allowed gays to marry, raise children ... we might just find out they're as moral as we are, can't have that can we?" just some thoughts. flame away. :) this is a very good point. one that i have held for sometime. we do not allow people to develop on the paths that they choose or desire. even with heterosexuals we tend to leave some hanging in the sense of knowledge and information about sexuality and relationships. it is very difficult for a young person to develop and build a positive view of themself when they are constantly being told implicitly and explicitly that they are wrong and immoral. the concepts about personal relationships are deeply embedded in emotionalism and fear- these fears cover a wide range, but mostly jealousy and lack of trust seem to be cornerstones of modern day american relationships. we also set on top of this the concepts of madison avenue attractiveness and standards and put the pressure on to measure up. 
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 #compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, #and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that #homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general #male population. did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority (homosexuality) are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority (highly promiscious)? i didn't think that you did. -greg hennessy, university of virginia it is obvious that mr. cramer has the 'ability' to take the 'leap of faith'. i have listened to several of the men involved in this study, and even they claim that the men involved will not 'tell the whole truth'. i put little value in extrapolating from these types of 'studies' or 'surveys', they have limited subsets of individuals, and there is alot of skewing due to improper selection methods, and the bias of the people involved in the studies on both sides- subject and researcher. would you admit to be part of a group that was not very well liked? would you admit to having had sex with other people at some considered abnormal rate (this applies to heterosexual men). in fact, as one gay man and one straight man put it, "men lie about the number of partners, because that's the thing to do"- our culture for the male almost requires this type of response. it may seem harmless and silly, but carries a large emotional and mental price tag. i hear college male students everyday talking about their 'supposed' conquest. they just have to look good to one another, at least in their eyes. but also know that alot of this does go on, there are many college males (hetero) having a lot of sex with different partners. 
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 #compared to the table i have already posted from masters, johnson, #and kolodny showing male homosexual partners, it is apparent that #homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general #male population. did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority (homosexuality) are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority (highly promiscious)? oh yeah, and men just haaaaate to brag about "how many woman they've had." 
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 well it really doesn't matter anyway because i really don't care what liars think of me anyway. what? did i call you liars? you want proof? i'd be glad to provide it. i'm really sure which ones of you said these things since you all sound the same anyway. one of you said "nixon didn't start any secret wars." this is a lie. nixon had full knowledge of the invasions of laos and cambodia, and then lied to the american public about it. note, however, that these were military actions but not wars. what a joke! you can't actually believe what you just said. can you? we bombed and invaded these countries. notice the definition of war (from the american heritage dictionary): 1) a state or period of armed conflict between nations or states. this qualifies the invasions of cambodia and laos as wars. one of you said "nixon didn't use the office of the presidency for personal gain." this is a lie. the senate committee issued an indictment that listed nixon's crimes. the relevant ones were: 1) violating his oath of office. 2) abusing his presidential powers excuse me, but neither of these refer to personal gain. then let me explain this to you really slowly. why did he abuse the powers of his position? could it have been to gain personal political power? naw, that would be too obvious. so now, you're big thing that you have been flogging me with is that i mistook prc for people's republic of cambodia. since i knew that cambodia was socialist at the time, and since your comment was right in middle of a conversation about cambodia, i made the wrong assumption that we were talking about the same thing. ah, but garrett, anyone who has to make assumptions about the meaning of the initials prc in a discussion about asia is breathtakingly and anyone who can only call names because his position is defensless is breathtakingly ignorant and desperate. i noticed that you edited out the other points were i proved you and phil to be completely wrong. "death to all modifiers, he declared one day, and out of garrett johnson every letter that passed through his hands went every garrett@ingres.com adverb and adjective. the next day he made war on articles. the following day he blacked out everything in the letters but "a", "an", and "the". - joseph heller's catch-22 
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 |>here are *several* shreds of evidence that prove the waco disaster |>is the government's fault: |>1) they raided an american's property because of *rumors* about |> koresh's intentions with some converted, yet still 2nd-amendment |> protected, firearms (a judge-approved warrant justifies nothing) in a democracy under the rule of law a search warrant justifies a the us constitution does not justify murder of those attempting to mount a search for illegally held weapons. a search for illegally held weapons (if there were any, no evidence yet produced to this effect) does not justify firing into a house with women and children, either. it also does not justify shooting first without identifying oneself (the atf and fbi have done this before, so don't say they haven't, please) or producing a warrant. guess it depends on whose story one believes, huh? |>2) it took them *51 days* to think of a basic terrorist tactic, i.e. |> tear gas (and this could only be justified in support of rescuing |> any supposed `hostages' inside) the govt has a right to use lethal force in certain cases. attempts to capture dangerous criminals who are armed and threatening the lives of others which "others" are we talking about here? is one. in this case they used sub lethal force. "sub lethal"? excuse me, but those people are dead!!! |>3) the gov't immediately imprisoned these so-called `hostages' the children were held hostage. evidence? so far the fbi has produced none. don't hold your breath. the adults were wanted variously for murder and conspiracy to murder. only a few of those being held in chains and s(hackles are wanted . the rest are being held for the crime of being "material witnesses". |>4) it took hundreds of gov't agents with tax-funded cellular phones |> *ten minutes* to dial 9-1-1 for the fire department they should not have called the fire dept at all. there was no role for them to play in a situation where those that might be rescued might well shoot at them. it was not the feds decision to make, but the firefighters. calling the fire dept meant that waco was deprived of a resource that might have been needed elsewhere should a situation where it could have been used arisen. this is true of any answer to a call for help from a fire department by any citizen. since fire departments do answer calls that "deprive resources that might be needed elsewhere" it is not a valid reason for not calling them. further, since the davidians had not been found guilty of any crime in a court of law, they are subject to the same protection as any other citizen. and las far as i know, even criminals in prison are not left to burn to death in a fire. |>5) by cutting off the water supply in the surrounding area, the gov't |> guaranteed that any fire at the compound would be fatal any fire started deliberately uising lamp oil is likely to be fatal. i guess this is a matter of religious faith with you? the government says it, so it must be so? or haven't you been reading this thread well enough to notice that some of us here don't beleive their story? |>6) no one had the foresight to station rescue vehicles nearby in the |> first place they are a scarce resource. a bunch of psychos cannot deprive the neighbourhood of a resource that might be required in a genuine case. patients in psychiatric hospitals are not left to die in fires, either. besides, as i explained, some of us here believe their distress might have been genuine. are you so certain it wasn't? |>7) the gov't conveniently forgot all that `freedom of religion' stuff freedom of religion does not include human sacrifice. nor does it include other forms of murder. there is no evidence that the davidians committed human sacrifice either before of after the initial raid. and self-defense is not |>8) the gov't arguably started (or at least fanned) the fire themselves the govt arguably is run by communists or the trilateral commission. he did not say it was deliberate. accidents do not require conspiracy theories, only wanton disregard for human life. the initial raid alone (agents firing blind into walls against all standards of law enforce- ment procedure) proves they did not mind killing people. |>10) finally, and this may be a stretch for some of you statists out there, |> but koresh's original reasons for holing up in such a compound may |> have *something* to do with the continual interference from the gov't |> -- new taxes, new regulations and increasing involvement in every |> aspect of our personal and economic lives -- life on a compound might |> become the way of the future ... it might have to be let us hope that those who support koresh are not allowed to enforce this upon the rest of us. no one here is "supporting koresh". we are opposing the illegal use of excessive violence by our government against our citizens. that is all. their reasons for supporting the ownership of high power weaponry are clear enough they hope that this will be the catylist for the destruction of the fabric of society and allow them to enforce their nightmare vision of the future. a society that believes it is ok to terrorize people for their religious views will destroy itself in due time. it is the feds who disrupted the "fabric of society" in waco, not koresh. it is the feds who forced a nightmare onto the people of mount carmel. it would be a good thing for people to study history. on what basis do you assume we haven't? don't you really mean "it would be a good thing if people drew the same conclusions from history that i do?" :-) in particular a group of militant... "militant" implies acts of aggression against one's neighbors. the davidians left their neighbors alone. .religious heretics who left to set up such a community some time ago. a few years latter they had captured medina and destroyed the idols in the kabba. within ten years the whole of arabia was under so what? the mormons were considered a "cult" for years, and were chased out of one place after another on much the same thinking as you are advocating. when they finally got to "set up a community" they left people alone. so far americans haven't been put to the sword by mormon hordes crying to avenge joseph smith. :-) just because a group of people start by saying that all they want is to be left alone does not mean that that is how they will stay. it doesn't mean they won't either. anyway, the whole purpose of a system of laws is to punish people for what they do, not what they might do. the pat robertsons, oral roberts and jimmy swaggarts of this world are quite telling other people how to run their lives. "telling" is not the same as "forcing". when the police knock at my door, i cannot make them go away by changing the channei. as for pat and friends, i don't even watch their channel, since i am an atheist. so far, not watching them tell me what to do hasn't gotten me killed :-) if you allow such people to get guns and point them in your face you are likely to find that they are running your right now, the only people sticking guns in anyone's faces is the government. and they are trying very hard to run my life. or haven't you noticed? phill hallam-baker | christian struble | college libertarians of texas - uh chapter | | mece3d@jetson.uh.edu | box 113, 4800 calhoun, houston, tx 77004 | | the true civilization is where every man gives to every other | | every right that he claims for himself -- robert ingersoll | 
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 mwilson@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com (mark wilson) writes, (missing the entire point of my post): |given that: |1. the trade in illegal drugs is responsible for |much of the crime which afflicts our nation. there is much evidence that it is the fact that the drugs are illegal, not the drugs themselves that have caused the violence. witness prohibition and the violence that surrounded the trade in alcohol. no joke. |2. people who want drugs (particularly people who |are predisposed to addiction) will find a way to get |them, whether or not they are legally available. this is suppossed to be an argument for keeping drugs illegal? no,_you_jumped to_that_conclusion. it's actually an argument as to how to accomplish the societal good of discouraging drug use without violating individual rights. |3. despite current law enforcement efforts, drugs |are readily available to those who want them. this is suppossed to be an argument for keeping drugs illegal? no. _you_missed the point. the point is, the "war on drugs" is a failure, and is counterproductive. |4. addiction to drugs, boh legal and illegal, is |responsible for a significant drain on the productive |resources of our country, and this occurs in a variety |of ways, from the cocaine-addicted babies who are |unable to learn, to the spread of disease among |addicts, to the tragic consequences of alcohol abuse |and tobacco smoking. the crack baby scenario has been thouroughly discredited. it just so happens that the symptoms seen in the crack babies are identical to fetal alcohol syndrome. and the mothers who admitted to taking crack also admitted to drinking heavily during pregnancy. in this country people are free to be stupid if they want to. but, they are not free to be stupid and injure other people. admittedly, the fetal right-to-life is outside the scope of this discussion. however, it's ridiculous to assert, as you apparently do, that cocaine has_no effect_on the developing fetal nervous system. caffiene and nicotine have fetal effects too, why should cocaine be any exception? |5. a general economic principle of government is |that whatever is subsidized you get more of, and |whatever is taxed you get less of. to be most |effective in confronting the nation's drug problem, |some way must be found to utilize these additional |powers of government to make drug dealing and drug use |less attractive. so make the drugs legal, tax them and use the tax money to fund a program to tell people how studid drugs are. it has worked for the legal drugs. if you had read my article before writing your knee-jerk response you would have seen that this is exactly what i advocated. |while this country's current efforts to combat |legal drugs have succeeded in some respects, (there is |a greater awareness of the health consequences of |smoking, and designated-driver programs have helped |reduce drunk driving, for example), the same cannot be |said for the "war" on illegal drugs. there remains a |core group of illegal drug users which support |international networks of smugglers, pushers, growers, |processors, kingpins, and gangsters. these networks |and their "marketing activities," which include drive- |by shootings, corrupting law enforcement authorities, |and smuggling weapons, are directly or indirectly |responsible for a large proportion of the crimes |committed in our country every day. each and every one of these problems is a direct result of the drug trade being illegal. no shit, sherlock. |clearly, illegal drugs and rising crime are |linked. it takes only a moment's reflection to |recognize how they are linked. the link is money. as |with this country's failed effort to prohibit alcohol |consumption, a black market has been created, in which |greedy local monopolies, like the gangsters of a |bygone era, have profited enormously from their |illegal trade. the victims of this trade include not |only the innocent people unfortunate enough to be |caught in the crossfire, but, i would argue, the drug |users themselves. a great argument for making drugs legal. thank you. how could you have missed the point so utterly? what_have_you been smoking? |here then is my proposal: |1. possession and use of all presently illegal |drugs is decriminalized, but buying and selling them |remains illegal. 'potheads' can grow their own |marijuana (as many already do today), other drug users |can legally import their poison of choice as long as |they pay the tariffs, and a barter economy of drug |experimenters develops. your solution has done nothing to eliminate the violence in the drug trade. btw, how is someone going to import a drug if buying it is illegal. i think you need to think your solution through a little more thouroughly. obviously, importers will not be buying drugs in the u.s., under u.s. jurisdiction. use your remaining brain cells. |2. because of the barter economy which supplies |the drug users, the black market profits that have so |enriched the drug lords dwindle. if these drugs can |be obtained for 'free' or next to nothing, why buy |them? nevertheless, there will be those who will seek |to sell these "noncommercial" drugs even at relatively |low prices. therefore, you have failed to indicate how these drugs can be obtained for free or next to nothing. you have stated that the sale of them is illegal. o.k., i'll spell it out for you. "barter economy" means that drug users will be permitted to grow or synthesize chemically anything they choose, or to buy it outside the u.s. and bring it in, if it won't grow here. they will also be permitted to trade with other drug users for drugs other than the ones they themselves grow or manufacture. they will not, however be able to legally sell their drugs for money. both manufacture and importation of noncommercial drugs will be taxed, to discourage their use. "this is your brain on drugs. any questions?" |3. law enforcement activity is concentrated on |those individuals who continue to buy and sell, and |also on the crimes committed by drug users too poor to |afford even low prices. but here is where the |strategy begins to differentiate between the drug |dealers, the victimizers, and the drug users, their |victims. in most cities, this is already the strategy. it has already failed and is dragging the rest of us down with it. pardon me, but possession/use of these drugs is still a crime! you cannot analogize the rates at which drug users would seek treatment, and the comparative ease with which it could be made available today, when these drugs are illegal to possess/use, with what it would be were they_not_illegal to possess/use. decriminalizing possession and use makes treatment_much_easier. drug dealers are exploiting the weaknesses of those persons who are prone to addiction, and as such, the drug users should be left alone, not thrown in prison along with their victimizers. drug_dealers_are the criminals, and should be treated as such. drug addiction does not absolve you of responsiblity for your criminal actions, however. |4. upon arrest for_any_crime,_suspects are |permitted to choose whether or not they will undergo a |drug test. those who choose to cooperate are informed |that upon conviction for the crime they are accused |of, if they are found to be a drug user, they will be |institutionalized until they are clean, and only then |will they begin to serve their sentence. if they |choose to cooperate and are already drug-free, they |can begin to serve their sentence right away. those |who choose not to undergo the drug test and are |convicted face stiffer fines and serve longer |sentences. this sounds a hell of a lot like self incrimination. which is unconstitutional. if drug use is legal in your scheme, why should the presence of drugs in anyones system influence the penalty they receive? much too big brotherish for my tastes. the drug test of an arrested suspect is voluntary, not coerced, and does not therefore constitute violation of amendment v. those convicted who are drug users, as evidenced by the test, are in need of treatment for their problem. institutionalization of these adddicted criminals is, i would argue, the best way to help them straighten out. if they refuse the test and are convicted, their sentence can be appropriately harsher, since they, unlike the addict, have no "excuse" for their crimes. |5. institutionalization of drug using criminals |serves several purposes: |drug using criminals (and this includes drunk |and/or 'stoned' drivers) are separated from their |sources of supply, thus reducing the total number of |drug users in society at large, and consequently |decreasing the demand for drugs on the street, putting |more of the remaining drug dealers out of business. why should drug using criminals be treated any different from other criminals, you have already stated that drug use is legal. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com why not? my objective is to discourage drug use_and_criminal behavior. if fewer criminals do drugs out of fear of getting a harsher sentence if they are convicted, why is that not a good thing? if fewer drug dealers (who are still criminals, btw) can find victims, why is that not a good thing? if fewer drug users, such as drunks, 'potheads,' etc., commit crimes out of fear of being cut off from their sources of supply, why is that not a good thing? i'm certainly willing to debate my position. you have to read it carefully though. --standard disclaimer-- *.x,*dna************************************************************** *(==) ken barnes, lifesci bldg. * conservative libertarians * * \' kebarnes@memstvx1.memst.edu * for pro-balance! * *(-)**memphis,tn********75320.711@compuserve.com********************** "i find television very educating. every time somebody turns on the set, i go into the other room and read a book."--groucho marx 
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 |> >|> >> steve proposes a system of checking what other nations are in to |> >|> >> as criteria for what our government should try. |> >|> > i counter that the limits of the constitution might be a better |> >|> > place to check. |> >|> gee, jim, if you'll check the constitution you'll find "in order to... |> >|> promote the general welfare...do ordain and establish this constitution..." |> >|> i'm surprised you missed it. it's right there in the first paragraph. i |> >|> would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble. |> >you almost got it right, and it was a good try, but you should follow your |> >own advice. the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted |> >but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble. it is not |> >a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law. that |> >poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages |> >in the english language - witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who |> >think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land. do you |> >really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to "promoting |> >the general welfare" to be within the limits of the constitution? |> sorry, buddy, but some other "blowhards" managed to include the "general |> welfare" in another portion of the constitution. |> article i section 8: "the congress shall have the power to lay and collect |> taxes...to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general |> welfare of the united states..." |> i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they |> said in the preamble. |> >just to make sure you've got the point, let's do a little experiment. what |> >if the constitution read as follows? |> >preamble: we the people, to promote the general welfare, do ordain |> > and establish this constitution for the united states of |> > america. |> >constitution: the federal government shall have one function and one |> > function only - to provide for the defense of the nation. |> >the government would not then have two functions: defense and welfare. |> but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense |> in article i, section 8, i guess you'll grant that botha are constitutional |> functions. right? steve i'm glad to see that you abandoned the preamble thing. what; did you do a word search to find welfare somewhere else in the constitution? [my comments and paraphrases in brackets] article i section 8: [in some ways the guts of the constitution] the congress shall have the power: 1. to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts [indebtedness as defined in the document] and provide for the common defence [defence as precisely defined] and general welfare [as defined through the document, mostly in ways [that limit the government.] of the united states; [but the above taxes shall be uniform through- [out the u.s.] [so far the congress has been given the power to collect taxes uniformly] [ then ... ] 2. to borrow money [...] 3. to regulate commerce with foreign nations, [interstate and indian tribes] 4. to [do uniform naturalization and bankruptcies] 5. to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and [etc.] 6. to [punish counterfeiters] 7. to establish post offices and post roads 8. to [provide patents and copyrights] 9. to constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court; 10. to define and punish piracies and [etc.] 11. to declare war, [and etc.] 12. to raise and support armies,[but for no longer than two years at a stretch] 13. to provide and maintain a navy, [notice no time limit on this one] 14. to [make the rules for the army and navy] 15. to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws [etc.] 16. to provide for [training of the army except for some state stuff] 17. to exercise exclusive legislation [in d.c] 18. to make all laws [necessary to execute the foregoing "powers"]. your original instinct was right. looking to other nations for precedents that support an expansive liberal agenda is much easier than looking to the slim pickins found in the constitution. jim albea jwalbea@jima.b17d.ingr.com 
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 i am seeking any press references to how much tax perot pays in income taxes. i've heard the figure of 7 percent, since he gets most of his his income from federal and municipal bond interest. anybody read a reliable report somewhere? thanks! 
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 "lessons from tiananmen square" by neal knox reprinted from guns & ammo, september 1989 why the second amendment is so important, even in todays more "progressive" era. included is a description of the 1932 bonus march in washington, dc in which gen. douglas macarthur opposed with military force unemployed wwi veterans lobbying for the government to immediately pay their promised veteran's bonus. now you can't seriously suggest that the us government would be affraid of a bunch of vets, and would up and call out the military to protect them just because the us government up and decided to forget a generation of veterans......... now what was that some liberal was saying about the advantages of a conscripted armed forces which we need not actually pay for services render....... you should be aware that the us army was called to "fight" (and did) ww i veterans (bonus marchers) who marched on dc demanding bonuses they were promised for service. becaues of the depression, they wanted them early. john burton jburton@acenet.auburn.edu my opinions, not my employer's 
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 : >you might -- except that gay men are much more promiscuous than : >straight men -- which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are. : okay claytoon, let us say that hypothetically i agree with you that : gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men. why does : this indicate they are screwed up people? : btw - it occurs to me that since, in my experience, men are much more : interested in sex than women and want to have sex much earlier : in a relationship than women do, that homosexuals would have : sex more often simply becuase their partner is of a like mind. : i.e. heterosexual men would be more promiscuous if they could. it's my observation that women are more likely to me more strongly indoctronated into now wanting sex that are men. also there are definite double standards for men and women who are could there also be a factor of communication being more direct in homosexual relationships and culture. mark evans |evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 429 9199 (home) |evansmp@cs.aston.ac.uk +(44) 21 359 6531 x4039 (office) | 
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 wow, i hadn't realized how venomous this was getting! be careful here...the problem isn't the rich but the values and the systems that make the rich but the "values and systems that make the rich rich" all basically amount to freedom of choice. in new england in 1800 the entire economy was based on the small family farm. farm economy households were economically diversified, producing not only agricultural goods but also "manufactured" goods, especially cloth. many farm women carded, spun, and/or wove, producing not only cloth for their own family but also to sell, generating extra income. but about this time the industrial revolution was underway in england and by the 1820's it had moved to the us, in both cases in the form of textile mills. these mills could produce cloth far more efficiently and cheaply than people at home. the result was that an important source of home income was wiped out and many of these women were compelled by economic circumstance to go to work in these same mills in lowell, mass, or nashua, nh, where they worked 73 hour weeks in deafening, dangerous conditions, living regimented lives and being exposed to cotton-dust and infectious dis- eases due to the work. now people didn't *have* to buy the cheaper factory-made cloth. they were free to keep buying the home-made variety and support their local economy . . . things are designed in such a way that in order to go with the system and make money, everything else we care about goes to shit. . . . but (sorry for the cliche), "it takes two to tango". the big rich corporations achieved that wealth because we buy their stuff. it used to be the case that the business center of a town was also its social center. you knew the merchants you did business with or even local kids working behind the counter. you would see people on the street whom you knew and you could stop for a chat. nowadays local merchants are going out of business and people shop at huge anonymous malls serving regional populations of hundreds of thousands or millions. you have no particular relationship with the companies you do business with, and feel no particular commitment to them, nor they to you. major components of what defines a "com- munity" have been destroyed. on the other hand the products we buy at these malls are a lot cheaper due to economies of scale and foreign manufacture, and they are probably of better, or at least more consistent, i have to constantly remind myself that the goal of human society is not to make money. money doesn't make us happy; it just prevents certain things making us more unhappy. therefore, don't shoot the rich. shoot the conservatives! don't blame the conservatives for this. everyone makes their own individual choice and the liberals and the fence-sitters are just as guilty of pretending there are no social and cultural consequences to economic choices. ---peter 
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 |in article <visser.735286101@convex.convex.com>, visser@convex.com (lance visser) writes... |> i can't wait for the investigation. considering that everyone |>is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground, i guess "honest citizens" |>will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a "threat" |>these people were. | just look at the history of koresh and his folowers. they captured | the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a | rival bd sect, leaving more than one person dead. they weren't | exactly the most peace loving bunch. i wonder where you have been getting your mis-information from. straight from the batf itself? koresh and his followers did not -capture- the compound a few years ago, it has always been theirs. a few years ago their was an argument over who should lead the group, a gunfight erupted *one* person died. koresh was charged with the murder. when the sheriff came to arrest him, the sheriff knocked on the dorr and showed koresh the warrant (a tactic that the batf might try learning). koresh and the others charged peacibly surrendered to the sherrif. a trial ensued, the others were found innocent, and the jury hung on koresh's mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179041">
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 : >it's quite possible that a buyer and seller will both : >trust some third party more than either trust the other, and : >will desire the moderation of that third party. but if a random : >third party assumes the right to interfere in a transaction contarary : >to the wishes of the primary participants, odds are pretty good the : >results will be detrimental. : so we try to ensure that the process of deciding whether to introduce : third parties isn't random. as steve said above, there are examples : where third parties *are* less ignorant or corrupt than the two : primary parties; should this knowledge not be able to help? a third party should be able to use persuasion to sway the transaction. if, on the other hand, we condone the use of force or threat of violence by the third party, then we are in trouble. a fourth party could say that it knows better than parties 1, 2, and 3. and a fifth party... and so on. who wins? the one that can use the force or threat of force the best. in other words "might makes right." let's abandon such aggressive tactics and work from voluntary cooperation and respect from others. that is what libertarians want. paul schmidt: advocates for self-government, davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive, johnson city, tn 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269 "freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people -- and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress." -- u.n. report 
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<answer instance="talk.politics.misc179044" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 in a previous article, mwilson@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com (mark wilson) says: |in article <visser.735286101@convex.convex.com>, visser@convex.com (lance visser) writes... |> i can't wait for the investigation. considering that everyone |>is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground, i guess "honest citizens" |>will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a "threat" |>these people were. the batf warrant was unsealed yesterday. the entire operation was illegal from day one. no authority for a "no-knock" raid. no authority to use the texas helicopters. no authority to search for a "drug lab". more atf lies. clinton and reno are lying fucks. 
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 the white house office of communications for immediate release contact: bob boorstin thursday, april 22, 1993 phone: 202-456-7151 health professionals to review clinton proposal as it develops too many mds on the list and not enough rns in my opinion. doug fierro |\ uts system software o __________|_\______ case tools development \_.______________________| * * * * * * * * */ fierro@uts.amdahl.com __\____ |=================/ (408)746-7102 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179049">
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 from the santa rosa (cal.) press-democrat, april 15, 1993, p. b2: male sex survey: gay activity low note this contradictory title- gay activity low. vocabulary test: please define the following words: a) contradictory b) ambiguous the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179050">
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 elf sternberg: but if less than 10% of the population is gay, what can we say about these people who don't identify as gay but have demonstrated gay potential. obviously, a large chunk of these people *chose* (or, more accurately, were forced to choose by force of religion and social sanction) to put those feelings aside, to be heterosexual. obviously, cramer and kaldis fall into this category. i can't speak for kaldis; but "force of religion and social sanction" played no part in my sexual preferences. neither had much influence on me as a teenager. you might as well have. you certainly would not have been in error if you would have. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179051">
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 theodore a. kaldis: ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry. you smack of idiocy, t*d. i don't suppose you've heard of pythagoras i have indeed heard of pythagoras, but i don't know that he was ever disparaged as a "bean eater". in the american southwest and west (e.g., texas, california, colorado), the term "bean eater" is sometimes used as a slur against those of hispanic heritage (generally mexicans, in those parts) -- much like how the irish in the northeast are perceived (by some) as voracious beer guzzlers. the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis my own only. do you seriously | kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu believe that a major university | {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis as this would hold such views??? | 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179053">
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 |> the situation in waco was similar to a hostage situation with |> a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person. |> in such a situation, a person who provokes the madman and causes |> him to pull the gun's trigger is responsible for the death of the |> hostage. janet reno blindly stumbled in there and basically |> threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would |> release the hostage. it's no surprise that the madman would |> pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation. just out of curiosity, what else was there to do in this situation? wait another 51 days/weeks/months/years??? was there anything indicating that these children and the other people were going to get out alive? tom munoz thought for the day: "one million microfiche = one fish" ___________ ___ ____ ____ /_________ /| /___/ \ /__ /\ /___/| |___ ___|/ / _ \ /| | \ \/ | | | | | | |_| |/ | | \/ | | | |__|/ \_____/ |__|/ |__|/ munoz@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov 
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 do we know yet who will be holding the hearings? and, if so, do we know who is on the committee of question askers? i'm sure many of us have potential questions we'd like to send to them. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179056">
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 homosexuals lie about the 10% number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation. they also lie about "10%" to keep politicians scared. 1. you haven't shown any disproportionate involvement. 2. the janus report, which came out recently, gives 9% as the percentage of exclusively or predominantly gay men. 3. no one is presumably going to say they're gay if they're not. but some no doubt are going to hide their homosexuality in surveys. thus the 1-2% is a lower limit. i still say that weighing all the evidence gives a most likely percentage between 5 and 7%. kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (hot young star) astronomy dept, boston university, boston, ma 02215. true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self. 
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 of course the last mow was the same thing but [the media] ignored us. i guess that was just labor pains. perhaps they will ignore us again, in which case we will come in even largeer numbers next time. local media hasn't said much, if anything, about the mow. also, when i called a straight friend in arlington to tell him i would be on his doorstep this weekend, he didn't know anything at all about the march. this is a gay-sympathetic person who notices things like this. i thought it was strange that he was unaware of what was happening. it made me wonder just how much coverage is getting to "mainstream" america. scott amspoker | head like a hole, black as your soul. basis international, albuquerque, nm | i'd rather die | than give you control. scott@bbx.basis.com | - nine inch nails 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179062">
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 unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of recent works suggest. oh, please, enlighten us all. what articles in particular are you quoting from? i'm doing my masters in psychopathology and it would interest me greatly in seeing these articles that you know exist (yet i know nothing about). i'm sure i could give them to people doing their phd's. with information like this, they'll have their degree in no time. (sprinkle sarcasm where applicable) don't bother with the little-girl-is-raped-by-her-daddy-and-is-now- a-lesbian-because-of-it studies. they have always been under critical scrutiny as to their validity. (correlation != causation). ========================= fluffy the wonder bunny ============================ sex is not the answer, sex is the question. yes is the answer. behind each "have a nice day" is a "go fuck yourself." ---ralph cherubini the other night i was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, and i wondered, "where the fuck is my roof ?!?" ====================== pcalitri@descartes.waterloo.edu ======================= hi! i am a .signature virus. copy me into your .signature and join the fun! 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179063">
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 : here's a hypothetical question... if clayton said something like "all : those niggers are really stupid." (please don't be offended, i'm not racist : but merely using an example of clayton's malign logic). and then said he : read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school, i : bet he wouldn't have your support. yet he can claim that all homosexuals are : dishonest, evil, lying child molesters without *personally* having a single : homosexual friend or acquaintance and you'll sit there and support him. : god created a place for bigots. it's called hell and clayton is going : to burn there for a long time. i pray for him to find in his heart the : christian values he espouses so that he can learn to love his gay brothers : and sisters, because anyone with so much hatred in his soul coulld never : be righteous. there is a difference between supporting claytons opinions and supporting his right to speak. i want you to know that you cannot educate and/or elevate ones understanding by calling him names. clayton has an opinion which in his mind is as valid as any opinion anyone else on the net has. if you were to walk up to black person to talk about blacks in the inner city and began the conversation with "those niggers in th.......". you would lose the attention of that black person by the time you spoke your second word. all name calling and derisive remarks do is turn off the audience you are trying to address. clayton is guilty of that and as such has distracted attention away from his message to bits and pieces of his conversation. i don't understand why people want to repeat his mistakes! = rogerd@netcom.com - - rogerd@aqm.com = = hanging by the tips of my finger = = at the edge of the internet = 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179066">
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 thirdly, it seems incredibly hypocritical to place blame given the benefit of hindsight - something that those who made the decisions did not have the benefit of. why not give them the courtesy of acknowledging that they did the best they could with the data they had - in a very, very difficult situation. what is your proof that they "did the best they could"? unless they had strong evidence that the children were in immediate danger then "the best they could" have done was to show restraint. some of us did predict this outcome, or at least suggested a strong possibility of it. i, for one, said that in the event of an assault against the building the children were the ones in danger either from the assault itself or from a "jonestown" (my phrase a week after the seige started) style suicide. and as i pointed out then, and repeatedly over the objections of people on the net who disagreed with me, an adult may freely choose suicide but they have no right to impose this choice on their children. now, while i don't expect the fbi to pay any attention to what i have to say on this, i *do* expect them to figure it out on their own or to take the advice of experts. the cult specialist inter- viewed in yesterday's boston globe said he was repeatedly "stonewalled" by the fbi when he pointed out to them that their confrontational tactics played perfectly into koresh's mad view of the world and so increased the chance of a tragic outcome. some responses have gone so far to suggest that the actions were done without regard for the lives of the people in the compound - give me a break. give *us* a break! pumping teargas for 45 minutes into a compound filled with children?!! this doesn't seem to show much regard for their lives or safety. "nontoxic teargas" is an oxymoron. children have tiny respiratory passages which are easily blocked by the secretions induced by teargas; moreover teargas can easily cause fatalities in anyone subject to laryngospasms, asthma, or heart disease. if a madman is holding a gun to a hostage, someone who provokes the madman by attacking him bears nearly as much repsonsibility for the death of the hostage as the madman himself. these kinds of situations have to be handled *delicately* - not by surrounding a place with tanks and heavily armed personnel and blaring rock music from loud- speakers at all hours. that approach is idiotic. be part of the solution - not the problem. the solution is to greatly reduce the authority of the "the authorities". the feds showed themselves here, as they have so many times in the past, to be a gang of trigger-happy, impulsive, yahoos who cause more trouble than they prevent. their confrontational approach reinforced every single message koresh was giving his followers, virtually guarantee- ing that whatever crazy solution koresh proposed would be followed willingly. this was pointed out here, on compuserve, in the press, just about every place except in the justice department where it seems a n.i.h. philosophy prevails. ---peter 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179067">
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 20, 1993 remarks by the president in question and answer session with the press 1:36 p.m. edt the president: on february the 28th, four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition, and placed innocent children at risk. because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective, a 51-day standoff ensued. the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life. the bureau's efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing, david koresh, was dangerous, irrational, and probably the stacy koon-lawrence powell defense! the decisions of janet reno and bill clinton in this affair are essentially the moral equivalents of stacy koon's. reno and clinton have the advantage in that they investigate themselves. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179068">
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 : the selective service registration should be abolished. to start with, the : draft is immoral. whether you agree with that or not, we don't have one now, : and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior : with a volunteer army than with draftees. finally, the government has us : on many lists in many computers (the irs, social security admistration and : motor vehicle registries to name a few) and it can find us if it needs to. : maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time. : let's axe this whole department, and reduce the deficit a little bit. more "gridlock" talk from another relic of the past. the selective service system creates jobs and is an investment in the future of america......and whats wrong with that? do we want to 'create jobs'? or do we want jobs created that are productive in our supply/demand economy? if your answer is the former then we can just round up all jobless people and pay them to build sandcastles in the desert. if you answer the latter then i fail to see how another bureaucracy produces anything. we need jobs because at this point in the recovery, the economy should have generated 10 billion jobs and since it has not, the government has to step in and help. shutting down selective service would cost "good jobs" and we can't do that. what we really need is to involve selective service in a more closely directed manner. we need the selective service involved in environmental protection, high-speed rail, commuter aircraft, civil rights, national service and health care. every dollar we put into selective service now will get us $10 less spending in future. i really believe now to think about it that selective service is long-past due for the creation of a cabinet position. your not beyond hope, just get back on america's side and start doing your part for change. what bill needs from you now is support for the economic stimulus and health care reform. you need to devote all your energies to fighting gridlock and supporting change. get on the team. after all, the evil has been banished from washington and the time for complaint is past being neccessary. and remember, bill clinton cares. he may someday even have a town meeting in your city. if your an appropriate sort of person, if you phrase your questions properly and show the proper respect and awe, you might have the chance to ask mr, president your question in person. oh, i get it. this is sarcastic, right? 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179069">
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 homosexuals lie about the 10% number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation. they also lie about "10%" to keep politicians scared. 1. you haven't shown any disproportionate involvement. 2. the janus report, which came out recently, gives 9% as the percentage of exclusively or predominantly gay men. i thumbed through the janus report in a bookstore recently looking for a clue about their methodology. they were very unclear about it, but as far as i could tell they relied on their professional associates in the psychotherapy profession to provide the subjects, interviews, and numbers. if so, this would hardly represent an average cross-section. i posted to usenet at the time asking for more data about their methodology but answer came there none. (i must have been out of my mind for even asking for factual information on usenet!) 3. no one is presumably going to say they're gay if they're not. but some no doubt are going to hide their homosexuality in surveys. thus the 1-2% is a lower limit. this is the problem. people have to have a lot of confidence in the anonymity of a study before they can counted on to speak freely about stuff like that. but i agree that if someone's going to lie it will be in the direction of a gay person claiming to be straight rather than the other way around. i still say that weighing all the evidence gives a most likely percentage between 5 and 7%. i don't see why there's any more evidence for this figure than any other. it seems totally arbitrary. ---peter 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179070">
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 i completely agree with you. the *illegal* invasion of panama was something mr. bush never did have to answer for. remember, not only did a lot of panamanian civilians get killed, but more than a few american soldiers died too. all this for arresting a petty dictator. here's the icing on the cake: to my knowledge the flow of drugs from panama hasn't slowed down at all with the removal of noriega. so, what good did it do to remove him from power? the cigarette cops and the fbi killing the branch davidians in waco is equally reprehensible. btw, i've cross-posted this article to t.p.d. because i want to hear from knowledgable people on whether or not the arrest of noriega affected the drug trade in any way. the arrest of noriega did not have any major adverse effect on the drug trade going through panama. money laundering continues to be panama's main industry. in fact, it is bigger now than before noriega was arrested [1]. panama's current administration also has ties with the colombian cocaine cartels [2]. and large amounts cocaine still flow through panama on a regular basis [3]. oh well... sources (from the book _drugs in america_ by vincent bugliosi): [1] irs criminal investigations divison [2] _new york times_ [3] u.s. state department michael wang mmwang@mv.us.adobe.com 
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 i've come to learn to suspect anything in the american press about our "system". if much or some of it were true, you'd have to take us for idiots for tolerating it. and given that our insurance was installed during a period when there were only liberal and tory governments federally and provincially, and the socialists are still chafing, they would've pressed for real socialized medicine to fix things ... think about it. after all, we are using the u.s. as a metric to make comparison ... both for keeping-up-with-the-joneses as for confirming that we did something right. true, but remember that most of the canadian-bashing exists because american proponents of your system make it look like it walks on water. even you don't go that far. sorry, but i'd have to differ. the canadian-bashing wrt to the health insurance system is largely with little evidence or prompting. having kept up with this debate on the net for some months, just about all the criticism of the canadian system has misquoted or misinterpreted even the anti-canadian propaganda put out by the american insurance industry and the ama. in a few cases, such as mr. case, the critiques are well-reasoned and worthy of response. most others are misinformed, illogical, or just plain dumb. i don't think the same can be said of the "american proponents" of the canadian system, much less of the canadian proponents. steve hendricks | domain: steveh@thor.isc-br.com "one thing about data, it sure does cut| uucp: ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh the bulls**t." - r. hofferbert | ma bell: 509 838-8826 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 20, 1993 press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room 12:36 p.m. edt mr. stephanopoulos: as you know, the president is going to come out at 1:15 p.m. with your indulgence, i think what we'd like to do is have the president award the national teacher's award first and then have the teacher leave, or whatever, and then he'll make a statement on waco and take a couple questions. so if we can just hold off going live and all that until that's done, it probably will work out a lot better. q if you'll give us the time. that's the problem. q we've got a two-minute warning problem. mr. stephanopoulos: yes, it is a problem. it's about 1:15 p.m. q the teacher would walk off and then -- mr. stephanopoulos: i think that's -- i'm just trying to work this out here. i think that's the best way to handle it. q can i ask you a series of questions about the way the president handled the notifications yesterday? mr. stephanopoulos: sure. q did you, for instance, talk to the justice department about who would come out and discuss what had happened in waco and whether it should be the attorney general or the president? mr. stephanopoulos: why don't we just take a step even farther back from that and look at the whole sequence of events on the contact between the justice department and the white house. as you know and as we've said, the president spoke with the attorney general on sunday, sunday afternoon. they had a good discussion, about 15 minutes. the attorney general informed the president of what she wanted to do. he raised no objections. obviously, she had the implicit authority from the president to go forward. he raised no objections. she went forward. they had a discussion of a general nature about the incident. again, yesterday morning around 11:00 a.m., the president spoke with the attorney general again. they had a brief discussion over what was happening in waco. as you know, this was before the fire broke out at the compound. and i think that was why there was some -- just some confusion. i think that she was confusing in her minds before and after the fire, not the actual day when they spoke. then there was a number of contacts at a number of different levels in the white house yesterday afternoon between the justice department and the white house. they were informing us of their decisions, what they would like to do. there was an fbi briefing in waco. the attorney general had her press conference. the president then issued a statement after that. frankly, yesterday afternoon, you know, there was a fair amount of confusion over exactly what was happening on the ground in waco, and i think that we wanted to be very careful not to have the president say anything until we had a much better sense of what was actually happening on the ground. once we were fairly clear on what was happening on the ground in waco, the president issued a statement. he spoke with the attorney general again yesterday q at what hour was that? mr. stephanopoulos: it was quite late. i believe it was after he returned from the holocaust museum. he took a tour of the holocaust museum last night. q and he went out to dinner. mr. stephanopoulos: i believe briefly. yes, he went to dinner and then he spoke with the attorney general last night. i don't know the exact time; i think it was relatively late. and he just said, i think as dee dee has reported, that he just wanted to tell her that he thought she handled a difficult situation very well, that she did a good job in a tough situation, and that she should try and get some sleep. he then, again, spoke with her this morning about the follow-up in waco, and about what they're going to do this afternoon. as you know, the president will have an announcement to make at 1:15. q did he ever talk with webb hubbell yesterday, last night, or this morning? mr. stephanopoulos: not to my knowledge, no. q was webb hubbell the point man for the white house? mr. stephanopoulos: webb hubbell is the general white house liaison and several people talked to webb. the attorney general was running the operation. q did he tell her that she should sleep well, that she had done a good job? or he just tell her that she should get some sleep? mr. stephanopoulos: i think sleep well -- done a good job -- i don't know the exact words. i think that sounds right. q i mean, sleep well has implications as to conscience and whether she should feel badly about it or not. mr. stephanopoulos: well, i mean, i think everybody feels badly when you have a situation when -- q i understand that, but whether the issue of blame is brought up in that phraseology. mr. stephanopoulos: i think that's the spirit -- no, it has nothing to do with that. the spirit with which it was offered was that the entire administration and certainly the attorney general had to face a very difficult decision, a very difficult situation yesterday. and that he thought that she had handled it well, as best as she could and -- q well, does he think it was mishandled? mr. stephanopoulos: -- it was just speaking of warm words to a friend. q does he think the situation was mishandled? mr. stephanopoulos: the president -- q in retrospect? mr. stephanopoulos: the president stands by the decisions of the law enforcement agencies, the decisions of the attorney general. he accepts full responsibility. at the same time, i think that we all want to look to the future and figure out what exactly happened, do a full review, and make sure we do what we can to make sure this doesn't happen -- this kind of thing doesn't happen again, or at least we know how to handle it. q how much did he know about what she was going to go ahead with? i know that she made the case to him -- explained -- outlined the case for action. did she say to him on sunday precisely what action? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't think it was specific operational detail as to what was going to happen. i think that they had a general discussion about the action, about the advisability of action. i think, as she noted, he asked a few general questions just trying to get a sense of how things were considered. but it wasn't minute-by-minute detail of how the operation -- q well, was it, "we are going in." is it, "we're going to use tear gas"? i mean, what? mr. stephanopoulos: i believe it was that we want to go in and take some action that would increase the pressure on those in the compound, and hopefully spur them towards some sort of movement q george, was there ever a conscious political decision made, or even a discussion about distancing the president from -- mr. stephanopoulos: not at all. i mean, we were in close contact with the justice department. the president accepts responsibility for this. at the same time -- i mean, we just wanted to be very, very clear about how this happened and be as factual as we could be on how the decisions were made. it is the responsibility of those on the ground to make recommendations. the attorney general has operational control over this. the president obviously accepts responsibility for all of this, and he stands by the attorney q george, there was a report on the television today -- and i don't know more than that -- one of the members of the cult had said going into a courthouse that the fbi had started the fire and not themselves. there was also a picture yesterday on the tv of a smashing into the building where the fire broke out. and my question is, is the white house absolutely certain that this fire was mr. stephanopoulos: all the evidence we have is that this fire was started by david koresh and those inside the compound -- every bit of evidence we have. q did the president ask the attorney general why do this now, why this particular date, and did he ask about possible consequences of either death or injury? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know the specific questions. he had general questions about how the decision was going about being made. q those are general questions and did he ask generally, why now? mr. stephanopoulos: i think he asked, have you considered all of the consequences; have you considered the recommendations? i don't know if he asked the question, "why now? " i don't know if he asked that specific question. q did she tell him why now in terms of the stuff that's come out since then about the information provided by the listening device about koresh getting increasingly more violent? mr. stephanopoulos: again, i'm not certain how much specific detail they got into. i know that she generally said that this is the recommendation she's prepared to make, i mean, the decision she's prepared to make. it's based on the recommendations she was receiving from the field and after intensive questioning of those involved. again, i do not know how precisely detailed it was beyond that. q what is the president's understanding why yesterday? one of the people who went into the compound a couple weeks ago came out over the weekend with some speculation that he may have told law enforcement people something that precipitated this action. why yesterday? mr. stephanopoulos: this is the first i've heard. i think what we can go to is what the fbi and the attorney general has said. there were indications that those inside the compound were at some danger. it was clear that the negotiations had broken down and it was the judgment of the experts involved in the negotiations that the situation was not going to get any better at all. there was also some concern over the vulnerability of the agents themselves who had been working long beyond the time that these teams normally have to work. and as the attorney general has said, there was some concern over the fact that they did not have replacements in place who could stand in for them, and there was a concern over the safety. all of these factors came into play. they also considered the advice of a number of psychologists and other experts on david koresh and those in the compound. i would just go back to what the attorney general has said. you have to make the best judgment you can, given the information you have at the time. they did. obviously, we all regret the loss of life. it's a terribly unfortunate situation. we all wish it could have turned out differently, but that doesn't take away from the judgments that were made at the time. q george, when did the president know that they were going to use tear gas? was it before the assault on the compound? mr. stephanopoulos: i just don't know. i don't believe he was given a lot of detail on exactly how the operation would go. i just don't know. q along that point, george, can you say whether the plan was presented to the president by the attorney general as a way to end the standoff one way or the other yesterday? mr. stephanopoulos: i think it was presented as a way to increase the pressure on those in the compound and, we all hoped, as a way to move some of those out and bring it in -- it wasn't presented as tomorrow is d-day, this is it. q is the president satisfied that, a, he had all this relevant information necessary to make a decision, and b, that janet reno had all the relevant information necessary to make a decision? mr. stephanopoulos: oh, i think he's satisfied that they were acting on the best advice and the best information they had, and he's not second-guessing it in any way whatsoever. q george, was there a 12-hour gap between conversations between the president and the attorney general? in other words, they spoke at 11:00 a.m. and they didn't speak again until clinton got back from dinner at -- mr. stephanopoulos: i think that's likely, yes. q did he call her? what time did she call? was there a gap between when she called him? i mean, was he at dinner when she called and -- mr. stephanopoulos: no, no, no. i think he called her last night. i couldn't swear to it, but i believe he called her last night. he just wanted to talk to her. q what was going on? mr. stephanopoulos: not that i know of, no. q what do you know about the situation now? everyone has perished who -- except eight or nine? and do you know any of the other details? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know any more details than the fbi reported in waco. q watching cnn or how was he keeping track of what is going on? if he wasn't talking to his attorney general, how was he keeping track of what was going on here? i mean, with all due respect to cnn, is that how he was doing it? mr. stephanopoulos: no. there was also -- as i said, several people in the white house were in constant contact with their counterparts at justice to have the full and complete information. q who were those contacts? i mean, was it mack mclarty, webb hubbell? how was the president being kept informed? that's not a -- mr. stephanopoulos: i believe mack was in contact with webb. i spoke with several people at the justice department. i believe bruce lindsey spoke with people at the justice department. either bernie or vince was also in contact at different times during the day with people at the justice department. we were fully briefed and fully informed. q we were told this morning that the president may have spoken -- a chance that he may have spoken with webb. do you know if that's true or not? mr. stephanopoulos: i think there's a chance he may have. i don't believe he did, but i think there's certainly a chance that he may have at some point. i don't believe he did. i think that the last contact he had during the day yesterday directly with the justice department was the 11:00 a.m. phone call with the attorney general. but the white house was fully informed on a minute-to-minute basis of what was happening in waco and what was happening at the justice department. q george, who decided that the briefing would be done by the attorney general? mr. stephanopoulos: the attorney general. q did you or did the white house communications staff -- were you ever involved with that decision? mr. stephanopoulos: no. we were told about it. q did you ask her to go on nightline and macneil- lehrer and all that stuff? was that part of -- mr. stephanopoulos: no. q there was no advice from the white house at all about her -- she was on all night, all day. (laughter.) mr. stephanopoulos: yes, and she did a very good job. q why did you decide to have the president's reaction to the situation be only a written statement, which is traditionally the white house's way of distancing the president from the issue, not having him appear as personally saying anything? mr. stephanopoulos: well, that wasn't the intent at all. as i said, we had to -- we wanted to wait until we had all of the information at hand. the president is also making a statement today. the president made a statement yesterday morning. the president has been fully involved -- q after this turned into less than a successful operation, the only statement from the president was what was on paper after the attorney general had already given what amounted to the major facts in this. mr. stephanopoulos: well, it was the first statement from the president, not the only statement from the president, number q after the -- mr. stephanopoulos: number two -- well, the first. number two, the attorney general -- q he gave a statement early in the morning when the thing was starting to move -- mr. stephanopoulos: right. and he gave one yesterday and he's giving one today. now, the second point -- q it just happens this was a written statement with no sort of communications policy or thought process involved? it was the president wants to put out a written statement? mr. stephanopoulos: knowing what we knew at the time, we thought it was appropriate for the president and he thought it was appropriate to put out a written statement expressing his regret and expressing his support for the attorney general's -- q why was it not appropriate for him to personally do mr. stephanopoulos: well, he did personally do so. that is his statement. it's a statement under his name. q george, yesterday during the briefing you didn't say the president took full responsibility for what happened -- mr. stephanopoulos: i certainly did. q no, what you said was -- mr. stephanopoulos: that's just not right, susan. q well, i think you can go back to the transcript, i mean, unless i miss something -- mr. stephanopoulos: i'd love to. q janet reno said that she took full responsibility and you said that she made the decision, that the fbi mr. stephanopoulos: and the president takes responsibility. absolutely. q took responsibility -- all right. mr. stephanopoulos: check the transcript. q considering how little was known about what was going on inside the compound and, even now, how little is known, why is washington calling this a mass suicide? mr. stephanopoulos: well, i think that knowing what we know now and given all of the actions of david koresh before and during, it is painfully clear that those there were under his q it's stretching it a little bit where the kids are concerned, though, isn't it, george? mr. stephanopoulos: i think that that is an entirely different matter. i mean, i think that david koresh must bear responsibility for the deaths of those children, absolutely. but he clearly was intent on creating some kind of an apocalyptic incident, and that's what he did. q you're still operating completely on assumption, right? i mean, you have no evidence, or you know of no evidence that this was mass suicide. mr. stephanopoulos: we have evidence that those inside the compound set fire to the compound, which led to the deaths of those inside. q i didn't quite hear it. this might be ann's question, i didn't quite hear it. but at what time did clinton himself put out a statement on this? i know dee dee said some stuff on this at 6:00 p.m., but the president put out -- mr. stephanopoulos: at 6:35 p.m., 6:40 p.m. q right after the evening news went on the air? mr. stephanopoulos: no, right when we had all the information. we were working on it. q dee dee confirmed this morning that the investigation the president is going to announce is going to be an administration-run investigation. why not have someone from the outside to make sure that it's not colored by those who would have a political stake, particularly those at the atf whose actions have already been -- mr. stephanopoulos: i think that clearly the atf and the justice department will bear responsibility for the investigation. that's not to rule out, as is often in investigations like this, having some sort of independent involvement as well. but it will be run by the treasury and justice. q are you confident that you will not have any problem getting -- mr. stephanopoulos: absolutely. q george, did the president reach out to anybody else to get advice after the meeting with janet reno? and who else in the white house sat in on that meeting? anyone else from justice? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't believe anybody else was there at the time. it was a phone call on monday, it wasn't a q sunday. mr. stephanopoulos: sunday. it was a phone call, it wasn't a meeting. i believe he might have been there with bruce, but beyond that, i think he just talked to the attorney general. q george, you said that in that phone call, she said that we want to go in and take action, as you said, that will force him out. what did he think she was talking about? if he didn't know about tear gas, what exactly was his idea of what he was approving? mr. stephanopoulos: i think he was approving an action to increase the pressure on -- qq it didn't matter how she did that? mr. stephanopoulos: no, no. i mean -- q what information did he have in terms of how this would proceed? presumably he would have wanted to know, not minute- by-minute, but in a general sense -- mr. stephanopoulos: i think he knew that this was the recommendation of those on the ground and the recommendation of the law enforcement agencies. i just don't know -- q what is "this" -- when you say that "this" was the recommendation -- mr. stephanopoulos: the action to increase pressure. i don't know exactly what he was told -- whether he was going to be told that the tank was going to go up to the left wall and punch a hole in the window, or whether he was just told generally that they were moving forward in a way that would increase the pressure. i just don't know. q it's hard to imagine him not asking, though. q that janet reno presented him with as her best advice about what they should go forward with, he would have agreed? mr. stephanopoulos: he was -- he did ask some general questions about the advice and recommendation he gave. at the same time -- and i would repeat -- that this was based on the unanimous recommendation of the law enforcement agencies involved. q george, it would seem that this question about just exactly in what detail the president was informed about the nature of the operation is going to come up again here and elsewhere. can you take that question and -- mr. stephanopoulos: absolutely. yes. q get the answer and come back to us with all of mr. stephanopoulos: yes. q can you tell us that there was never a meeting -- a strategy session -- where you and others decided, we will put out a written statement from the president and we will have janet reno be on all of these television broadcasts? mr. stephanopoulos: never. never. q and you never called the justice department and said to anyone or janet reno, "you're the one who needs to be out front explaining this"? mr. stephanopoulos: not once. q it just happened that way that she was the spokesman, that no one ever saw bill sessions until -- mr. stephanopoulos: she made a decision as attorney general that it was important for her as the operational officer in charge, as the person who made the decision, to go out and take the questions on this tragic incident. q she had no guidance from the white house at all? mr. stephanopoulos: we certainly didn't object. q but did you -- (laughter) -- no, i'm sure you didn't object, but did you suggest it? was this a plan -- mr. stephanopoulos: no. absolutely not. q a strategy? mr. stephanopoulos: no. q did she clear it? mr. stephanopoulos: no. q did she notify you? mr. stephanopoulos: we certainly knew about it. q what happened to this great detailed process you have for clearing and talking to every public information officer and every -- under every rock and every place in government that something as major as this could have occurred without a discussion between you and the public information people at least at the justice mr. stephanopoulos: the attorney general made the decision and the attorney general wanted to go forward. it seemed like a good decision. it was a good decision. she did a good job. q let me ask it this way, george, if in hindsight how you would handle it? mr. stephanopoulos: i think it was handled very well. q you wouldn't change a thing if -- mr. stephanopoulos: change what? q the way the white house handled any part of it -- from start to finish. mr. stephanopoulos: well, i think that's an awful broad question and we're certainly going to have a review. one of the reasons for the investigation is to look for ways in the future that something like this -- see what we can learn from an incident like this and see what we can learn about how to handle them. if you're talking specifically about the issue of the press conferences, no, there -- wouldn't make any change at all. q two questions: first of all, on her going on tv, no white house people or outside media consultants came up with this idea? it's just very reminiscent of what you guys did during the mr. stephanopoulos: how so? q i'm thinking of like watching clinton on nightline after the draft story; watching clinton on -- mr. stephanopoulos: there's absolutely no comparison. yesterday there was a law enforcement incident. the incident ended in tragic deaths of many, many people. the attorney general was involved in that decision. the attorney general made the decision to do that. she felt it was her responsibility in the interest of public information to go out and take the questions of the press in order to make sure that all of the questions were answered, and she did a fantastic job. q the second question is, did -- as someone who knows clinton as well as you do, can you understand why it's sort of hard to believe that he might not have asked some detailed questions about what she intended to do? in other words, she came and she said, i'm going to put pressure on them. it's hard not to see clinton, who's fairly intelligent and inquisitive, asking how. q what kind? mr. stephanopoulos: both the attorney general said that he did ask questions, he did ask general questions. i don't have a minute-by-minute account of the conversation. q how long a conversation? mr. stephanopoulos: i think it was about 15 minutes. q telephone conversation? mr. stephanopoulos: yes. q george, was the federal cost of this standoff ever a consideration in terms of stepping up the pressure -- mr. stephanopoulos: i don't believe so, no. q george, you keep saying that the president takes full responsibility, but then you refer to it as her decision. does the president not accept the fact that as commander-in-chief, it is ultimately his decision? mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know what this has to do with commander-in-chief. this was a law enforcement action, not a military action. and he clearly takes responsibility for the decisions of the law enforcement agencies involved taken in his government. i mean, i think there's just no ambiguity about that. q but is he accepting it as his decision as well as hers, or is he saying it's her decision? there's a difference. mr. stephanopoulos: as a matter of fact, it was her decision. he did not object to that decision. he clearly takes full q george, this briefing has gone on just a little over 15 minutes, and as you can see a lot of things can be exchanged. what exactly did they spend 15 minutes talking about if it was just very general? that's a long period of time in a phone conversation. mr. stephanopoulos: it is an awful long phone conversation. it was a very important phone conversation. i think brit has asked that we take the question, and i've said that i would. q one of the things reno said last night is that the buck stops here. i think that was her direct quotation. does the president agree with that in this case? mr. stephanopoulos: the president says he accepts full responsibility. i think what the attorney general was saying is that she made a decision, that she's going to accept all the responsibility that comes to her. and she's not shrinking from that at all, but neither is the president. q at any point in the conversation last night between the president and the attorney general or this morning, did she ever offer her a resignation? mr. stephanopoulos: not to my knowledge. q even before the fire was out yesterday, there were some republicans on capitol hill calling for an investigation. is the white house at all concerned about the timing of those requests trying to make political hay out of this situation? mr. stephanopoulos: no. and i don't want to cast any questions about the motives of those who are requesting investigation. we want an investigation, and we'll have a full and complete investigation. q in what forum will you answer brit's question? will you put out a written statement? will you -- the wires? how will you answer the question that you've taken? mr. stephanopoulos: i'm just not sure. q george, can you remind us what the president was doing all yesterday afternoon, where he was, and what meetings he was involved in? mr. stephanopoulos: i'll have to try and remember. he had a series of meetings with different members of the staff during the afternoon. he was certainly monitoring the situation in waco and getting periodic reports on that as well. he did see some on cnn as well. i believe he saw a fair amount of the fbi press briefing as q and those reports would have come to him from mack mclarty, would they -- do you think? mr. stephanopoulos: mack talked to him, bruce talked to him, i talked to him. q george, to follow helen's question, in their conversation this morning did they discuss at all her statement last night in response to the question about whether she would resign? did he say, i don't know why you felt the need to say that? i'm here to reassure you that you don't have to do this? did that come up at mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know if it even came up that specifically. i know that the bulk of the conversation was discussing where do we go from here and what form the investigation q the didn't talk at all about her kind of remarkable comment last night about -- mr. stephanopoulos: well, i believe she was asked a q and her response was, if the president wants me to, i will. mr. stephanopoulos: which would be, i think, the standard response that most cabinet members would give. i mean, it's a conditional statement. q have a need to talk about whether -- personally about whether the president wanted her -- mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know if they talked about it. i mean, what i learned about the conversation was that it was largely about the investigation itself. and this just didn't come up. i did not ask the question if they talked about -- q will you take that with the brit package? mr. stephanopoulos: certainly. (laughter.) q george, for the record, does the president want her to resign? i know dee dee answered this morning -- mr. stephanopoulos: absolutely not. he supports janet reno. she's a good attorney general. she's done a good job. she handled a difficult situation extremely well. q george, does the president feel that he and janet reno were let down by the unanimous professional advice from the law enforcement experts on the ground? mr. stephanopoulos: no. and the president is not second-guessing that decision and those recommendations in any way. that is not to say that he doesn't regret the loss of life. everybody regrets the loss of life in this situation. but the best judgments were made in a difficult situation based on the best information we had. q george, the 15-minute conversation was the one on sunday, is that correct? mr. stephanopoulos: yes. q how long was the one at 11:00 a.m. yesterday mr. stephanopoulos: i don't know. i'll take that question, too. q were these outside experts that they were consulting with, or experts within the atf and the fbi? mr. stephanopoulos: you'd have to ask them. i'm just not sure. i know that there were several experts. q and also, why weren't there replacements for these people? is the unit that small? mr. stephanopoulos: again, i think it is a very small highly-specialized unit. but i think it's one of the kinds of things that the investigation will examine. q george, isn't there a factor here involving the fbi director? normally, a president, when he wants to get information, doesn't only asks the attorney general. i know the chain of command. but presidents talk to their fbi directors. in this case, throughout this entire siege, he has not felt that he could pick up the phone and talk to bill sessions, who is from waco, and get expertise from him on what to do and what not to do? mr. stephanopoulos: i think he talked to the fbi director well in the beginning of the situation when it first broke out in waco. at the same time, the attorney general bears the ultimate responsibility and he was getting fully briefed from the attorney general. q don't you think the ambiguous situation that director sessions is in has some impact on the way the president is briefed and on the way that all of this evolved? mr. stephanopoulos: not at all. i mean, it's perfectly appropriate that he be briefed by the attorney general and that the attorney general has supervisory authority over the fbi director, and that's following the chain of command. the press: thank you . end 1:03 p.m. edt #60-04/20 
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 i can't wait for the investigation. considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground, i guess "honest citizens" will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a "threat" these people were. just look at the history of koresh and his folowers. they captured the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a rival bd sect, leaving more than one person dead. they weren't exactly the most peace loving bunch. koresh & some of his followers were tried and found *innocent* of all charges following that shootout. were you unaware of this or did you purposly leave out this fact? russ anderson | disclaimer: any statements are my own and do not reflect ------------------ upon my employer or anyone else. (c) 1993 ex-twins' jack morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (world series mvp!) 
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 f<o>cus/health: how u.s. compares....**paid** maternity leave... duration of nationally provided paid maternity leave in weeks, 1988 country weeks country weeks united kingdom 40 germany 14 finland 38 ireland 14 denmark 28 japan 14 france 16 28 spain 14 italy 22 netherlands 12 norway 20 sweden 12 canada 17-18 switzerland 8-12 austria 16 united states 0 belgium 14 source: international labor organization, "work and family: the child care challenge," conditions of work digest, vol. 7, february 1988. from page 11 of: _we're number one, where america stands -- and falls -- in the new world order_ by andrew l shapiro. new york, may 1992, vintage books, a division of random house. $10 paperback. isbn 0-679-73893-2 [transcribed by jhwoodar@well.sf.ca.us (joe woodard)] ``america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor. this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. the facts it reveals will startle you. they may depress you. but ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation.'' -robert b. reich, author of the work of nations 
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 in <1993apr15.143320.8618@desire.wright.edu>, demon@desire.wright.edu sez: a judge denied gm's new trial motion, even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact, not from the fire. it's kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear. there's this minor thing called "interest of finality/repose". what it means is that parties aren't dragged into court over and over again because the losing side "discovers" some "new" evidence. i don't know about you, brett, but i suspect gm had the resources to find just about as many expert and fact witnesses as it wanted before the trial started. letting them re-open the case now is practically an invitation to every civil litigant on earth to keep an ace in the hole in case the verdict goes against him. btw, in federal criminal cases, rule 33 does permit a motion for a new trial "based on . . . *newly discovered* evidence" if made within 2 years of the verdict. (emphasis mine.) if you're trying to make a backhanded point about criminal justice in a discussion that has little to do with criminal trials -- as the estimable david brock did in his amusing wsj piece last week -- save your breath. or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be shouldn't that be up to a jury? yup. which is why they shoulda been brought around the first time and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm? shouldn't that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial? whatever happened to jurors having to be objective? unless there's some reason to believe that this supposed bias predated the trial (as opposed to being a product of it), and that gm was unfairly prevented from discovering it (by venireman concealment or otherwise), why should gm be allowed to complain? moral: always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough - george ade mark eckenwiler eck@panix.com ...!cmcl2!panix!eck 
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 there's a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial, dispite evidence of his inocents. i recommend the book "adams _v_ texas", the story of a man (adams) who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit. most of the book is the story of the long appeals process, and the problems and delays caused by not being able to introduce new evidence in certain courts. john carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu) 
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 i really don't want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs. if you really want to, we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is! read: i do not know what the fuck i'm talking about, and am not eager to make a fool of myself. oh, you foolish person. i do know what the fuck i'm talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents: safer, cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs; reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically; etc, etc ahhh, the classic truth by blatant assertion technique. too bad it's so demonstrably false. take a look at great britain sometime for a nice history on drug criminalization. the evidence there shows that during periods of time when drugs (such as heroin) were illegal, crime went up and people did die from bad drugs. during times when drugs were legalized, those trends were reversed. if you would like to prove how clueless you are, we can get into why - again a lot of wasted posts that i don't think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little now this is a great example of an ironclad proof. gosh, i'm convinced. ( :-} for the humor impaired). first, assert something for which you have no evidence, then dodge requests for proof by claiming to know what this group was intended for. as to research, if you'd done any at all, you'd realize that there is plenty of reason to believe that legalizing drugs will have many benefits to society. there are some plausible arguments against it, too, but they aren't enough to convince me that criminalization of drugs is the answer. i'm willing to be convinced i'm wrong, but i seriously doubt the likes of you can do it. ...dale cook "any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem." ---edward abbey the opinions are mine only (i.e., they are not my employer's) 
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 alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (gerald olchowy) writes:> why don't the republicans get their act together, and say they will support a broad-based vat that would have to be visible (the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe) and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform, the republicans are, in general, fighting any tax increase. there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase i was a graduate student in the early 1980s, and we had a conference on reaganomics where jerry jordan, then a member of the council of economic advisors, was a speaker. i had the pleasure of driving him back to the airport afterwards, and since taxes were the main topic of discussion i thought i would ask him about the vat. i have favored it for these reasons you mention, that the income base is too hazy to define, that it taxes savings and investment, that it is likely to be more visible. he agreed, and reported that the cea at that time was in favor of vat. so why not propose it? i asked. he replied that the reagan white house feared that the democrats would introduce vat *in addition to* the income tax, rather than in lieu. better not to give them any ideas, he said. pretty prescient. (btw, what is different between canada's tax and most of europe's that makes it "visible?") yes, any canadian readers, please tell us if the tax is displayed on price stickers (i'm relatively certain it is not in europe). --king "sparky" banaian |"it's almost as though young kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu |white guys get up in the dept. of economics, pitzer college |morning and have a big smile latest 1993 gdp forecast: 2.4% |on their face ... because, |you know, homer wrote the |_iliad_." -- d'souza 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 20, 1993 remarks by the president during presentation of teacher of the year award the rose garden 1:25 p.m. edt the president: good afternoon. please be seated. i want to say, first, how delighted i am to be here with secretary riley and with senator graham. the three of us served as governors together during the 1980s when we worked constantly on strategies to improve our schools, when we led often difficult and long efforts to upgrade the standards in american education and to improve the quality of instruction our children were receiving. there were no two governors whom i admired more during that period than the two who now stand on this stage with the teacher of the year. and i think both of them would join me in saying that, after all the testimony has been heard and all the bills have been passed and the funds have been raised and allocated, it all comes down to what happens between the teacher and the students in the that's why today's ceremony honoring the national teacher of the year is so important. tracey leon bailey is one recognition all across our country for highly advanced and innovative science programs. he's developed and introduced into florida's classrooms cutting-edge programs in molecular biology and dna fingerprinting -- subjects usually taught only in college and, i might add, probably only dimly understood here in the nation's capital. (laughter.) within three years of being hired by a satellite high school, mr. bailey's institution had one of the strongest science programs in the entire state of florida, and it won numerous national and international awards. these advanced programs aren't just for a favored few. tracey bailey has inspired all kinds of students, including those previously known as low-achieving or at-risk to reach for excellence and to attain it. this is what our students need and what our country needs. today, we know that a good future with high wages and rich opportunities rests on the foundation of quality education for a lifetime. the basics aren't enough anymore. all our kids need competence in math and science and advanced problem-solving. that's why tracey bailey's accomplishments are so important and why i am so pleased and proud to participate in recognizing and honoring these tracey, you represent the best in the united states. i'm glad to recognize you today and to formally present you with this apple award as the teacher of the year for 1993. (applause.) mr. bailey: thank you, mr. president. it is indeed a great honor and a tremendous responsibility to represent the nation's 2.5 million teachers. and we appreciate the support that you have shown for education, and we're looking forward to working with you to help redesign and improve our nation's schools. we know that the quality of our children's education will directly impact the future of our economic and social landscape in the years to come. and we thank you so much for your continued support and commitment to our children's education. thank you again. (applause.) the president: in closing, i would like to also welcome the education leaders in florida who are here, those representing the national education groups who have also come. i'd like to recognize tracey's congressman, representative jim bacchus in the back, himself a great advocate of education. and i'd like to remind all of you that the ultimate purpose of the national teacher of the year award is to find a way for the rest of us to express our appreciation to people all across this country who give their lives to our children, all of the teachers of this country who get up every day and do their best to try to advance the cause of learning for all the children of america. they are, in so many ways, our most important public thank you very much. (applause.) end1:29 p.m. edt 
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 in a previous article, ddn@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.d.nason) says: give me a break. give me a break, chum. are you telling me that clinton and reno did not know that the batf actions were illegal, adn in violation of their warrant? be part of the solution - not the problem. the problem is clinton. you be part of him. 
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 garrod@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (david garrod) writes... it is interesting, sometimes, to listen to u.s. news as seen through the eyes of another country....... b.b.c. world news service, on short-wave, originating out of london, reports that a survivor of the waco massacre states that a tank, when making a hole in the wall of the building, knocked over a kerosene lamp and that is how the fire started. attempts were made by the people inside to put out the fire, but it spread too quickly. has anyone in u.s. heard anything similar or are u.s. government spin-doctors censoring such information? it was on cbs yesterday. the explanation is reasonable enough. then again, if the fire was accidental, why didn't more people get out? the b.b.c. news is also reporting that about 20 of those that died were british citizens. that's true. i think there were several australians in the group as well. _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april 23, 1993 background information: advancing u.s. relations with russia and the other new independent states april 23, 1993 at the vancouver summit, president clinton and president yeltsin agreed to pursue a number of measures designed to implement an economic and strategic partnership between the u.s. and russia. since then, president clinton has directed that a number of steps be taken to move this process forward. the administration is announcing a number of steps today in order to underscore its deep commitment to a new and closer partnership with russia based on its government's commitment to reform. executive review of cold war laws president clinton and president yeltsin discussed the desirability of reviewing and updating u.s. laws and regulations to reflect the end of the cold war. congress has already acted to revise many laws to reflect the fact that a communist soviet union has been replaced by a democratic russia and other independent states. however, many laws and regulations remain that contain language and restrictions that fail to reflect the end of the cold war and that unnecessarily undermine relations with russia and the other new independent states. the president today has ordered an executive review of laws and regulations so that, where appropriate and consistent with u.s. security and other national interests, such provisions can be revised or removed. he has asked ambassador-at-large strobe talbott to coordinate this review on an expedited basis. the president has indicated that he will welcome congressional efforts to help this review proceed as quickly as possible. this review will weigh all considerations that pertain to revision of such provisions, and the initiation of the review may help to remedy some of the circumstances that have justified such provisions in the past. for example, because the russians are eager to have their status changed under the jackson-vanik legislation, president yeltsin personally assured president clinton in vancouver that he would look into individual cases involving continuing restrictions on emigration from russia. by addressing such issues, this review can help strengthen the bonds of trust and partnership between the u.s. and russia, and between the u.s. and the other new independent states. review of cocom it is also time to consider expeditiously with america's allies the future of another cold war institution -- the coordinating committee for multilateral export controls (cocom). the united states has begun a thorough review of how to reorient export controls to the post-cold war world, in which russia is no longer viewed as a potential adversary, but as a potential ally in combatting the proliferation of sensitive technology. steps to improve the security relationship the president also has taken steps to move ahead on a range of efforts discussed in vancouver that can strengthen u.s. security and improve our security relationship with the russians and the other states. accelerated deactivation of nuclear weapons in vancouver, the two presidents discussed accelerating the process of deactivating nuclear strategic systems scheduled for elimination under the start i treaty. president clinton has directed the department of defense to complete this process well in advance of the seven year reduction period outlined in start i. in addition, the united states, together with russia and the other relevant states of the former soviet union, will be exploring programs under nunn-lugar to help them to accelerate this process. multilateral test ban the two presidents agreed at vancouver that negotiations on a multilateral nuclear test ban should commence at an early date, and that the two governments would consult with each other accordingly. the united states looks forward to beginning consultations with russia, our allies, and other states, on the specific issues related to this negotiation. the united states expects to start this consultative process within the next two the two presidents also began a dialogue on the issue of nuclear targeting at vancouver. as the united states and russia move into a new relationship of strategic partnership, there is a need to reexamine many of the assumptions and means employed in the past to safeguard u.s. security against a nuclear adversary. the administration is beginning a comprehensive review of measures that could enhance strategic stability, including recent proposals for detargeting nuclear missiles. other measures to create a new security relationship in response to the incident involving a collision between us and russian submarines last month, secretary aspin will be ready to discuss ways to avoid such incidents in the future with russian defense minister grachev during his visit to the united states in late may. secretary aspin will also be prepared to move forward with defense minister grachev in may to develop a combined training program between our two military forces and to prepare for joint exercises in peacekeeping, such as that authorized by the un security council. the united states looks forward to broadening such training and exercises to include other peacekeeping contributors, in order to improve inter-operability, readiness, and planning for multilateral peacekeeping operations. the us and russia are working together to convene a may ministerial meeting of the un security council to discuss proposals for enhancing the un's peacekeeping capability and to move consideration of the secretary-general's agenda for peace from the discussion to the implementation phase. the u.s. is also working with the russians to focus specifically on improvements in the financing and management of un operations. the purpose of these initiatives will be to cooperate on peacekeeping for our participation in un or csce sponsored actions. multilateral and bilateral partnership with reform finally, the administration continues to move ahead on a range of initiatives aimed at striking a partnership with economic and political reformers throughout russia and the other states. the administration is continuing work with our g-7 partners to assemble the package of multilateral assistance that secretaries bentsen and christopher recently negotiated in tokyo. and the administration is continuing consultation with congress over the further efforts the u.s. will take to assist the process of reform in russia and the other states. the administration believes these steps can increase american security while improving the relationship between the u.s. and russia, and between the u.s. and the other new independent -30- 
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 (misc.legal trimmed) let me explain some possible "means" to libertarian-style government one last time. if the dominate philosophy of a society held that it was ok to kill your neighbor for sport, no government system (except a strong tyranny by the minority) could keep the people from killing each other. the dominate philosophy in our society holds that it is ok for people to steal and coerce each other as long as it's done by vote or through the government machine. libertarians realize what this legal stealing and coercion does to a society. so just as a society of non-murderers would not vote for the "right" to murder, a society of non-coercers would not vote for the ability to if libertarianism became the dominate philosophy, the people would do a good job of restraining government (to the extent that libertarianism was dominate). so means #1 is educating the people to become libertarian. well, that's the obvious conclusion, given your train of logic. the corollary then is that it must be a waste of time for the party to run candidates until the educational program has shown some results. followups to a.p.l. cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 |>1) they raided an american's property because of *rumors* about |> koresh's intentions with some converted, yet still 2nd-amendment |> protected, firearms (a judge-approved warrant justifies nothing) in a democracy under the rule of law a search warrant justifies a and this search procedure must also follow the rule of law. the us constitution does not justify murder of those attempting to mount a search for illegally held weapons. it may, if necessary, when the search is executed in an illegal and violent fashion. the govt has a right to use lethal force in certain cases. attempts to capture dangerous criminals who are armed and threatening the lives of others is one. these "criminals" were threatening the lives of no one -- they were fired on first, according to a number of accounts. in this case they used sub lethal force. wrong. firing a gun at someone is lethal force, even if no one is hit. of course, they did hit and kill people. the children were held hostage. the adults were wanted variously for murder and conspiracy to murder. you are silly. there are no such warrants in existence, phill. |>4) it took hundreds of gov't agents with tax-funded cellular phones |> *ten minutes* to dial 9-1-1 for the fire department they should not have called the fire dept at all. there was no role for them to play in a situation where those that might be rescued might well shoot at them. calling the fire dept meant that waco was deprived of a resource that might have been needed elsewhere should a situation where it could have been used arisen. thanks, phill, for another example of that great socialist sensitivity. "obey the government or die." *plonk* cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --if you believe that i speak for my company, or cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special investors' packet... 
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 rja@mahogany126.cray.com (russ anderson) writes... i can't wait for the investigation. considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground, i guess "honest citizens" will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a "threat" these people were. just look at the history of koresh and his folowers. they captured the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a rival bd sect, leaving more than one person dead. they weren't exactly the most peace loving bunch. koresh & some of his followers were tried and found *innocent* of all charges following that shootout. were you unaware of this or did you purposly leave out this fact? the fact is that koresh and his followers involved themselves in a gun battle to control the mt carmel complex. that is not in dispute. from what i remember of the trial, the authories couldn't reasonably establish who fired first, the big reason behind the aquittal. _____ _____ \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ \_ / /__________/ \/____/\\\\\\ 
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 do all those who are saying the government is responsible for the death of those in the compound also say that the isrealis are responsible for the death of the isreali athletes at the olympics? hey, the palestinians and the dividians could have given up peacefully ('yeah, and monkey could fly out my butt' - wayne). 
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 doesn't seem like those responsible for the assault were very concerned about the welfare of the children inside. seems like they were more interested in flexing their muscle before the media. my reasoning? just ask yourself this one question: suppose the scenario was slightly different and we had chelsea clinton being kidnapped by terrorists, holed up in a compound for 51 days. do you think clinton, reno, the fbi, and the atf would be so eager to use a show of force? nuff said. richard mulac ck347@cleveland.freenet.edu "well, judging by his outlandish attire, he's some sort | these pontifications of free-thinking anarchist." - charles montgomery burns | are my own! 
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 this, too, is ridiculous. in no way can the provoker be considered to have played more than an exceedingly minor role. a person who kills is ultimately responsible for his own actions. finally, someone seems to be making sense in this thread. 
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 |>path: dscomsa!dxcern!mcsun!uknet!pipex!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!apm |>from: apm@hpopdlau.pwd.hp.com (andrew merritt) [unrelated text deleted] |>what exactly are you trying to say? and why were there no fire-engines within |>a mile of the compound? because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with 50mm amunition that has a range of 3000 meters. what crap, phil. 50mm? wrong. to give you a clue as to how big 50mm is, the f-16 fighter aircraft have 20mm gattling guns used to shoot down other aircraft. a 50mm gun would be somewhere in the `cannon' realm. they might have had .50 calibre but definitely not 50mm. i think that phil needs to get out a ruler and see exactly how big 50mm rounds are - roughly 2" diameter. the type of stuff used in anti-aircraft gunnery. .50 calibre is much smaller, but the 3000m effective range (~2mi) sounds about right. maybe he just got the two confused..... the fbi's reasoning was sound, but the note from ph-b was factually wrong. tom h. paul r. busta busta@kozmic.enet.dec.com salem,n.h. 603-894-3962 "those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------tom hyatt i'm a diehard saints fan, so i've thyat@sdf.lonestar.org suffered quite enough, thank you! arlington, tx help! i'm being repressed! -m.python ------------------------------- 
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 +>can people please stop the 'i think/know the batf/fbi are completely +>responsible but they'll cover it up so that the investigation will +>show that koresch is responsible' bs. in an investigation of this +>size with the feds, state, and civilians involved in the +>investigation it would be practially impossible to cover up. the place has burned to the ground. the fbi and company have the whole area cordoned off and have already arrested reporters for being at the site and taking pictures. all your going to get in terms of a story is what the fbi, atf and the texas rangers decide to release. +>and with republicans like arlen spector calling for investigations, +>this isn't going to be handled with kid gloves. when the philadephia cops dropped their bomb on move and managed to burn down an entire neighborhood many people said the same thing. dead men and rubble tell no tales that the police dont want them to tell. you can judge the real political mood on this from the fact that congressperson pat scroder is a 100% supporter of the fbi's actions. she was on television this week saying that the cost of the operation in waco was a valid reason for the storming and gassing of the compound. 
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 yesterday, the fbi was saying that at least three of the bodies had gunshot wounds, indicating that they were shot trying to escape the fire. today's paper quotes the medical examiner as saying that there is no evidence of gunshot wounds in any of the recovered bodies. at the beginning of this siege, it was reported that while koresh had a class iii (machine gun) license, today's paper quotes the government as saying, no, they didn't have a license. today's paper reports that a number of the bodies were found with shoulder weapons next to them, as if they had been using them while dying -- which doesn't sound like the sort of action i would expect from a suicide. our government lies, as it tries to cover over its incompetence and negligence. why should i believe the fbi's claims about anything else, when we can see that they are lying? this system of government is beyond reform. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 # ## ahh, what's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for # ## the gander. you don't want homosexuals to impose their moral codes # ## (such diabolical ideas as equal rights) on you, yet you are willing # ## to impose your moral codes on them. do i detect a double standard? # ## -garison # #what do you mean? if adults want to get together for sodomy in # #private, that's their business. # and that's precisely what they do. so what's your problem with the queer # population, boyo? the only difference between us is what we do in # private--who we love. # ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! do it in private, and it won't be a problem. but the reason that the homosexual activists are so hot on antidiscrimination laws is that they want: 1. to be able to wear that lovely chiffon evening gown to work, and not have people get disgusted; 2. to be able to wear their nambla t-shirt and not worry about getting fired; 3. to be able to have access to young boys, so that they start making the next generation of homosexuals. if your right to privacy is what makes sodomy laws unconstitutional (a position that i agree with), then keep it private, and there won't be a problem. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 #> a very well put together post. i disagree with several key points, but the #> post is an excellent one with which to "engage in discourse": i agree wholeheartedly. paul, you have handled this so well, i think that you could write ballot materials. thank you. i'd hoped to avoid the rancor that has characterized much of the debate on this issue. i'm also not going to prolong the debate on this. i wanted to respond to a couple of the points you make, but this will be my last posting on this. no, don't stop! #> right to equal opportunity (lets call it reo) involves coercion in all cases #> (by definition). one question: is it your position that there is no reo? or just that this is a lesser right to foa? good question. it just depends. how's that for an answer? :-) seriously, i believe that it depends on wether or not you are talking about a governmental employer or not. in this case, i believe that there should be absolutely no discrimination, direct or indirect, period. i feel this way not because it would offend my moral sensibilities (which it of course would), but because the government is a coercive entity which we cannot escape. it boggles my mind that in my lifetime, there were "whites only" drinking fountains in some parks, but no fountains for others, yet the taxes garnished to support those fountains certainly were not applied to "whites only." in essence, we cannot escape the coercive state. even randy weavers have to pay property tax. on the other hand, private employers are not a monopoly, and their businesses should be run by them, and not by the government, unless they elect to turn their affairs over to that government. #> why? says who? why can mom & pop have foa, but ibm be forced, and force is #> the correct word here, to have reo? in the case of the mom & pop store, their foa is directly affected. they, as individuals, will have to associate with whomever they hire. in the case of ibm, i ask again, whose foa are we protecting? i do not accept that ibm, as a corporate entity, has a right to foa. but if the mom & pop store is affected by who they hire, isn't ibm? there is a slippery slope here. in santa cruz (where a number of loony anti-discrimination laws exist), a guy sued a restaurant for not hiring him because he had every imaginable kitchen utensil dangling from his earlobe, and his tatoos were very distracting. #> suddenly, by arm waving, by magic, a landlord does not have foa. and on #> what basis does the foa of the landlord "disappear"? #> it seems that vague terms like "no contact with tenants" suffice. on the basis that the landlord has no contact with his/her tenants. if the landlord doesn't associate with his tenants, then how can he complain that his foa is being violated? i have a lot of interaction (all positive) with my tenants, so i guess that that isn't an issue. but say i were to buy a unit in another town, and have it managed by a third party. let's say that i have a real aversion to christians because of the stuff that they buy into hook line and sinker, and because of the lunatic schmucks that they try to get elected. i don't want any of those fish symbols hanging in the window of a house that i own. should the government intervene? if i was elie weizel and the only rental applicant was tom metzger, should i be forced to rent this distant unit to him? #> the companies on the fortune 500, for example, are all privately owned. they #> can give you a list of all of their owners. they have no "anonymous", #> unknown to them, owners. "publicly owned" in the sense that their stock is publicly traded and that the shares of stock are owned by a generic, and ever-changing "public". yes, and the neat thing about this is that unlike the mom & pop store, you and i can buy shares in ibm, and have influence over their decision making policies if we don't like them. anyway, paul, keep up the good work. mark walsh (walsh@optilink) -- uucp: uunet!optilink!walsh amateur radio: km6xu@wx3k -- aol: bigcookie@aol.com -- uscf: l10861 "what, me worry?" - william m. gaines, 1922-1992 "i'm gonna crush you!" - andre the giant, 1946-1993 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179110">
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 # ## can someone tell me why when mr. cramer spouts on about homosexuals, # ## he only addresses homosexual men, and never, in any post i've read, # ## addressed lesbians? # #i can't really speak for mr. cramer here, but i can say that a # #homosexual [male] is an entirely different animal than a lesbian. # #there is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the # #aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants. # so it has nothing to do with your morals, its just that you wouldn't # have anything to wack off to if you didn't have tapes of lesbians # going at it.... # i think we are getting closer to the truth now. no, we are getting at mr. foard's sickness. this may surprise homosexuals, but lots of people in this country do not spend their time watching pornography and masturbating. some of us have real lives, instead of sexual compulsions. but i don't expect a homosexual to understand that. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179111">
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 # |# # can someone tell me why when mr. cramer spouts on about homosexuals, # |# # he only addresses homosexual men, and never, in any post i've read, # |# # addressed lesbians? # |# i can't really speak for mr. cramer here, but i can say that a # |# homosexual [male] is an entirely different animal than a lesbian. # |# there is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the # |# aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants. # obviously. a homosexual male is of the xy chromosome pair and the lesbian # is of xx. besides, what does that have to do with the price of eggs? since # mr cramer is _very_ straight, he most probably gets off to the thought of # lesbians, like the majority of adolescent males. # |# the views expressed herein are | theodore a. kaldis # | adda wainwright | does dim atal y llanw! 8o) | i hate to disappoint you, but that's not the case. i don't "get off" on lesbian sex, nor am i an adolescent. now, when i was an adolescent, i believed that homosexuals were just like everyone else. but i've learned since then. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179112">
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 did anyone notice that clinton was smiling and making jokes just before this press conference? considering the number of people killed, this seems very inappropriate to me. why? he, reno, and the fbi got what they wanted -- a reminder of who is the boss in america -- the thugs who work for the government. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179113">
<answer instance="talk.politics.misc179113" senseid="talk.politics.misc"/>
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 # #i used to think that homosexuals were ok -- but havng now gotten a # #chance through usenet to know quite a few, i've realized that i was # #misled in my youth. homosexuals are vicious, screwed-up, often # #really evil people. # that's a load of shit. if you really have the naivete to believe that the # bozos over on soc.motss characterize our entire populace, you need to live a # little. try soc.bi, for example...you'll find almost exclusively a bunch of yet, the characteristics of soc.motss fit quite well with the other evidence that is available. high promiscuity, child sexual abuse history, support for child molestation advocacy groups like nambla, s&m, etc. # well-adjusted, friendly, humanistic people. and, in any case, i think # you'll find that most people are quite different from the persona they # present on usenet. for all i know, you're a wonderful, enlightened human # being taking the role of hatemonger for satirical effect. # somehow i doubt it, though.... hatemonger: someone who reminds people of why homosexuals are dying in such large quantities of aids -- because their sexual compulsions prevented them from keeping their number of sexual partners below four digits. # ## i've got a few clues for you. (a) i'm not working to pass any laws. (b) # #it's being done in your name. # and that makes it my responsibility, i see. suppose i kill someone in the # name of clayton cramer. how does that make you a murderer? if i know about it, and don't express my disapproval, it certainly would make you suspicious about me, wouldn't it? # #my morals aren't yours. i wouldn't march in a parade with a group # #that advocates child molestation. it doesn't stop homosexuals. # i wouldn't march in a parade with a group like that either. and if you're # talking about nambla, i think you'll find that they do not advocate child # molestation. i also think you'll find that the vast majority of homosexuals they advocate sex between adults and children, with no lower limit on age. but that's right, homosexuals don't believe that an adult sodomizing a five year old is child molestation. # will have no truck with that group anyway. fooled me. they march in a number of gay parades around the country. # ## #clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! # ## #relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. # ## but not between members of the same sex, right? how can you live with such # ## hypocrisy? # ## ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! # #sure. whatever consenting adults want to do in private is none of # #the government's business. you are the ones that want more laws # #telling me what to do in private. # quit lumping me in with groups. the fact is that homophobia is an evil, # unjustified prejudice, just like racism or sexism. you can't reject all but # one of those. # drewcifer it is nothing like racism or sexism. you choose to be a homosexual. my distaste for homosexuality is because of what homosexuals do. clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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<instance id="talk.politics.misc179114">
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 # ## sigh. you're absolutely right. we have no political power whatsoever. # #if only that were true. in california, homosexuals have enough power # #to impose their morals on others. # the only "moral" we're imposing is one which you supposedly embrace already: # every human being's right to be treated as such. i don't expect to be hired based on my sexual orientation. if someone decides he wants a gay-only staff of employees, that's his business. i won't force him to hire heterosexuals; please don't force me to hire homosexuals. # ## therefore, we should be oppressed and ignored and denigrated, right? i # #you aren't oppressed in california. # but it's ok to oppress us, that's what you're saying! no. i'm saying it's none of the government's business what two consenting adults do in private. you don't believe that, unfortunately. # ## certainly hope you don't have an so, sir, because if she heard how # ## disparaging you are towards political minorities, and if she had any shred # ## of self-respect, she'd be out the door. # #why do you keep insulting women and blacks by comparing them to # #homosexuals? # this sort of crap makes me so fucking sick that i can't even bring myself to # touch it. you're a fuckwit with no perspective, no valid life experience, # and no true knowledge of the human condition. i see no point in trying to # convince you politely that we're not all like the ones you've met, because # you're showing no willingness at all to be open-minded enough to accept that # your stupid generalizations have exceptions. you are an intellectual waste, # and the reason you believe the worst of homosexuals is that you bring out # the worst in them. # ----bi andrew d. simchik schnopia! and you are yet another reminder of the emotional instability of clayton e. cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer my opinions, all mine! relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. 
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 after the initial gun battle was over, they had 50 days to come out peacefully. they had their high priced lawyer, and judging by the posts here they had some public support. can anyone come up with a rational explanation why the didn't come out (even after they negotiated coming out after the radio sermon) that doesn't include the davidians wanting to commit suicide/murder/general mayhem? 
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 janet reno killed the waco children. she is responsible for their deaths. she should resign immediately. she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked. all the warning signs were there and she ignored them. she provoked koresh into killing the children. janet reno, the fbi, et al were nothing but pawns in koresh's game. he was a madman who was going to hurt the children, and everyone else in the compound no matter what the fbi did. the situation in waco was similar to a hostage situation with a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person. in such a situation, a person who provokes the madman and causes him to pull the gun's trigger is responsible for the death of the hostage. janet reno blindly stumbled in there and basically threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would release the hostage. it's no surprise that the madman would pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation. such a hostage situation has taken place on numerous occasions with the result of the police trying to take the place by force and the result being the death of the hostages and the gunmen. however, this is the first time i've heard of the blame landing squarely on the police. in this country we have a policy of not negotiating a back down from terrorists and hostage takers since that only encourages other terrorists and hostage takers. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82757">
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 i just recently realized that i am bisexual, and also just recently returned to religion, and have a good friend who has pointed out to me that homosexuality is a sin in the bible. well, i don't see how it could be considered a sin, first of all as far as i know, only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles, so you're off the hook there, i think. in any event, there are *plenty* of people in many denominations who do not consider a person's sexual identification of gay/lesbian/bisexual as an "immoral lifestyle choice" also, i have always been a somewhat liberal feminist, and am pro-choice, and it seems that being pro-choice and being religious don't mix either. i am told this is another misconception. you are not being told the whole story. my former minister is a lesbian, and i know personally and professionally several openly gay and lesbian ministers. i am a unitarian-universalist and like most others in my denomination, am pro-choice. you needn't go looking to the unitarian universalists (which is a liberal religion) for acceptance of your sexual identification and pro-choice views, however; there are many of us who believe in spirituality and freedom of conscience. good luck on your journey! daniel o'connell meadville/lombard theological school university of chicago divinity school <dsoconne@uchicago.edu> 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82758">
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 i will hear what god the lord will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly. psalm85(jps): for the leader. of the korahites. a psalm. o lord, you will favor your land, restore jacob's fortune; you will forgive your people's iniquity, pardon all their sins; selah; you will withdraw all your anger, turn away from your rage. turn again, o god, our helper, revoke your displeasure with us. will you be angry with us forever, prolong your wrath for all generations? surely you will revive us again, so that your people may rejoice in you. show us, o lord, your faithfulness; grant us your deliverance. let me hear what god, the lord, will speak; he will promise well-being to his people, his faithful ones; may they not turn to folly. his help is very near those who fear him, to make his glory dwell in our land. faithfulness and truth meet; justice and well-being kiss. truth springs up from the earth; justice looks down from heaven. the lord also bestows his bounty; our land yields its produce. justice goes before him as he sets out on his way. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82759">
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 not to be too snide about it, but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion, very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don't match with one's desires. it is, in fact, so convenient that, were i capable of believing in a god, i might consider going for some brand of christianity. the only difficulty left then, of course, is picking which sect to join. there are just so many. dean kaflowitz yes, christianity is convenient. following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient. trying to love in a hateful world is convenient. turning the other cheek is convenient. so convenient that it is burdensome at times. --there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke. (bob dylan) --never let school interfere with your education. (mark twain) --rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. (mark twain) --tact is getting your point across without stabbing someone with it. --subtlety is saying what you mean, then getting out of the way before it is understood. --"if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human being, you'd be a game show host." (taken from the movie "heathers.") 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82760">
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 pps...am i giving you too many clues? too many clues, not enough substance. you ask a lot of good questions, though, but they are questions *you* should be worried about, not me. i'm not the inerrantist here. let me know when you are ready to get serious. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82766">
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 for a while i was puzzled by the the concept of adam and eve coming to know good and evil. this is how i resolved it. within god's universe each action evokes an equal and opposite reaction. there can be no good without evil as an opposite. so the issue is not what you do but to whom you give your allegiance. that is why, even in this sinful state, when we perform an evil act while we are submitted to god he does not place that sinful act to our account (rom 4:8) in the same vein you can perform all the good deeds in the book, if your life is not under god's control you are still sinning (see rom 14:23). now, take a good look at at, an tell me man, there is no christian devil? there is, is real, is a virus, a meme, infecting and possessing the good people and keep 'em from becoming human beings with emphasis on the being! is not a matter of good people an evil people, is all good people see, but some good people vexed of the christian devil. an it can't be burn out or lynch out or rape out. only wise up let i rise up. christian devil is real man, how else can you explain five hundred years of history, even more? can only be explained by christians invoke christian devil. you keep on knocking but you can't come in, i got to understand you've been living in sin, but walk right in and sit right down, i'll keep on loving you, i'll play the clown, but bend down low, let i tell you what i know yah i've been 'buked brothers and i've been stoned, woe, woe, woe, now i'm hung by a tree in the the ganging on a few, woe, woe, woe, it doesn't matter who the man is who lives the life he loves, it doesn't matter what the man does or the honest life he loves, i want somewhere, i want somewhere, hallelujah, hallelujah, somewhere to lay my head, woe is me only ska beat in 'eaven man stiff necked fools, you think you're cool, to deny me for simplicity, yes you have gone, for so long with your love for vanity now, yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain imagination, so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars, and forever yes erase your fantasy, yeah, the lips of the righteous teach many, but fools die for want of wisdom, the rich man's wealth is in his city, the righteous wealth is in his holy place, so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars, and forever yes erase your fantasy, destruction of the poor is in their poverty, destruction of the soul is vanity, yeah, but i don't want to rule ya, i don't want to fool ya, i don't want to school ya, things you, you might never know about, yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain, vain imagination, stiff necked fools, you think you're cool, to deny me for, oh simplicity love to see, when yah move in the rhythm, love to see when you're dancing from within, it gives great joy to feel such sweet togetherness, everyone's doing and they're doing their best, it remind i of the days in jericho, when we trodden down jericho wall, these are the days when we'll trod true babylon, gonna trod until babylon fall then i saw the angel with the seven seals saying, babylon throne going down we weeping and we wailing tonight 
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 he sounds really cute, morte! kinds like _pete's dragon_, maybe smaller, maybe a different species.. winge'd? (shakespear wing-ed) i've always hat a horde of mice to turn to for fun & sort of that kind of mouse in cinderella (walt disney). i grew up sort of as an only child, part time.. my siblings were 10-8-6 years older than me, so i was pretty commonly a different sort of charater in their games (read: non speaking hot cocoa-goffer, stand in (still silent) bad guy/good guy/etc), so my mice were playmates, more than advisors. could curt, or whomever has a good list of books please post such list, in all sorts of fields, like jungian, condensed buddist/etc philosophies, multiple personailty disorders, or good fiction that has well worked imaginary friends? sheilagh, wanting a bunch of library catalouge topics to search thru 
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 [many good points deleted. anyone who missed it should see the original.] lists like this that just toss a bunch of quotes together to make a bible verse salad just don't cut it. those of us who want to argue against inerrancy should find this sort of thing as embarassing as the fundies should find josh mcdowell. true, except that i've known few fundies who had enough sense to be embarrassed by josh mcdowell. (okay, maybe a cheap shot. but i'm in that kind of mood.) bill mayne 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82772">
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 someone posted a list of x number of alleged bible contradictions. as joslin said, most people do value quantity over quality. dave butler posted some good quality alleged contradictions that are taking a long time to properly exegete. if you want a good list (quantity) - _when critics ask, a popular handbook on bible difficulties_ by dr. norman geisler deals with over 800 alleged contradictions. "if one wished to contend with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand." job 9:3 
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 i just read my first newspaper in a while and noticed an article on a 'messianic cult' leader named 'david koresh'. i'd like to know more about this and what is going on with them. please email me as i don't normally read this newsgroup. thanks. thyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82775">
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 }do you have any examples of ritual cannibalism, particulary amongst the }primates? why the "ritual" qualifier? i was thinking of instances were a particular food or foods or drinks are used to symbolize or ritualize cannibalism. do you know of any human cultures that have this type of mythology? for example, where one might eat a food as representative of the body of a god, thus ritualized cannibalism in the absence of the original. i know of ritual cannibalism among tribes in papua-neuguinea (?). they used to eat the brain of killed opponents. sometimes these brains contained infectious agents which lead to a disease called "kuru". since cannibalism was banished by the government, the number of kuru cases has dropped sharply. oh, yeah? well---*i* know of .... anyways, cannibalism is much more commmon than those who feel that it is wrong (and then point out that the fact that western civilisation doesn't do it is proof positive that we are more advanced) would have us believe. cannibalism is often used in funeral ceremonies as a way of keeping the deceased loved one alive. many other cultures (including many american indian cultures) eat/ate the flesh of slain enemies, often as a way of showing respect for the valor of the departed. hearts are often favored for this, as it contains the spirit. have you ever read or seen "alive", which is the story of the argentinian boys soccer team that crashed in the andes and then ate the bodies of those who died in order to survive? finger lickin good. how about the twighlight zone episode "to serve man"? if you want more info on this, a good place to start is on sci.anthropology now send me $20 and eat my flesh, lovall@physics.purdue.edu 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82776">
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 said: posted on 27 mar 1993 at 00:16:13 by michael parks swaim well, i *will* do the math, and i get: (6^6)^6=2,189,739,336 this mean anything to anyone? :^) 5*1=5 thus fitting in neatly with something else. º...and everything under the sun is in tune... º "what was jabba the º ºnd the sun is eclipsed by the moon." º hut smoking?" º º --pink floyd º --alex º º "eclipse" º curious º º_________________________________________________º_____________________º 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82778">
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 i'm curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve. lists like this seem to value quantity over quality, an "argument from article length." and the list you have here is of poorer quality than most. i agree, which is why i've asked for help with it. the reason i'm working on this list is because i've recently had one too many christians tell me "the bible contains no contradictions whatsoever." they believe that it's true, and that it describes reality perfectly, and even predicts history before it happens. before i can carry on any sort of meaningful conversation with these people, i've got to show them, with concrete evidence, that the bible is not nearly as airtight as they thought. i hope to do that with this list. specifically: when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories, i usually get blank stares or flat denials. i've never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation. _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 understand what the words mean. someone who inflicts pain on themselves because they enjoy it is a masochist. and, no: there is nothing wrong with it. you may think it's gross or bizarre (and i might agree with you here), but my/your disgust is not equal to it being morally wrong. /(hudson) /if someone inflicts pain on themselves, whether they enjoy it or not, they /are hurting themselves. they may be permanently damaging their body. that is true. it is also none of your business. some people may also reason that by reading the bible and being a xtian you are permanently damaging your brain. by your logic, it would be ok for them to come into your home, take away your bible, and send you off to "re-education camps" to save your mind from ruin. are you ready for /(hudson) /and why is there nothing wrong with it? because you say so? who gave you /the authority to say that, and set the standard for morality? because: i am a living, thinking person able to make choices for myself. i do not "need" you to show me what you think is the way; i have observed too many errors in your thinking already to trust you to make up the rules for me. because: i set the standard for my *own* morality, and i permit you to do the same for yourself. i also do not try to force you to accept my rules. because: simply because you don't like what other people are doing doesn't give you the right to stop it, hudson. we are all aware that you would like for everyone to be like you. however, it is obnoxious, arrogant thinking like yours, the "i-know-i'm-morally-right-so-i-can-force-it-on-you" bullshit that has brought us religious wars, pogroms against jews, gay-bashing, and other atrocities by other people who, like you, "knew" they were morally right. (me) what is it with you, hudson? you think you know better than other people, so you want to be able to tell them what they can and cannot do to themselves? who died and made you god? how come i can't do the same /(hudson) /aren't you? aren't you indicating that i should not tell other people what to do? aren't you telling me it is wrong for me to do that? it is not a moral standard that i am presenting you with, hudson. it is a key to getting along in life with other people. it is also a point of respect: i trust other people to be intelligent enough to make their own choices, and i expect the same to be returned. you, on the other hand, do not trust them, and want to make the choice for them--whether they like it or not. it is also a way to avoid an inconsistency: if you believe that you have the right to set moral standards for others and interfere in their lives, then you must, by logic, admit that other people have the same right of interference in your life. (yes, i know; you will say that your religion is correct and tells you that only agents acting in behalf of your religion have the right of interference. however, other people will say that you have misinterpreted the word of god and that *they* are the actual true believers, and that you are acting on your own authority. and so it goes). (hudson) /who gave /you the authority to set such a moral standard for me to tell me that i /cannot set a moral standard for others? you can set all the standards that you want, actually. but don't be surprised if people don't follow you like rats after the pied piper. at the most basic form, i am not going to let you tell me what to do; and if necessary, i will beat you to a bloody pulp before i let you actually interfere in my life. now, at a more humane level than that, i recognize that all people are sentient beings possessed of intelligence and capable of reason. i also recognize that they, like i, appreciate being treated with respect and allowed to make their own decisions. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82782">
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 (hudson) /these people hurt their own bodies. why can't they hurt other peoples bodies /too? (me) because other people might not *want* to be hurt, hudson. and hurting them against their will is a violation of choice. /(hudson) /so. why is someone elses will such a big deal if morality is all relative. i don't believe i ever said that morality was all relative. what i said was that i can make my mind up on my own, thank you, and that you don't have the right to tell others what to think. i think that you will find that in most moral systems, there is a respect for human life and the dignity of the person. it is all the stuff besides these points that forms the core of the disagreement between primitive moral absolutists like yourself and the rest of us. /(hudson) /maybe (the insane lover of pain might reason) if other people experienced /enough pain, they might learn to enjoy it, too. fine. there is still the clinical definition of crazy. and this also involves a violation of free will, because the insane lover of your little example would be inflicting pain on a non-willing subject. try again. (hudson) /you have to have other premises to derive this. (me) no, you don't. that is a patently false statement. /(hudson) /you have to have some sort of premise about choice or self-awareness. no, you do not. i demonstrated to you the example of the football team which doesn't require premises about freedom of choice or sentience/self-awareness. as i said, you are wrong, and you don't seem to know much about moral systems. if i were you, i would take david bold's suggestion and do some reading on the subject before you try preaching about it. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82783">
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 /(hudson) /yes you do. who is to say that it is immoral for onesself to experience /pain or to be hurt in some other way. maybe unpleasant, but that doesn't /say anything about morality. it violates free will, hudson. (me) you can derive the immorality of hurting someone else entirely from selfish motives. i can say, for example, that it is wrong to hurt other people because that makes them less productive members of society. /(hudson) /why is making someone a less productive member of society immoral? hudson, you are screwing up again. morality does not (i say again, does not) define only "right and wrong". it also defines "acceptable social behavior", without any overtones of good and evil. picking up your trash is not really a right/wrong moral issue in the eternal sense of good and evil. yet it is moral in the sense that it is acceptable social behavior". your definition of the word "morality" is what is causing you to trip over yourself here. /(me) /and since />i, selfish being that i am, want to maximize my gains from society, i will />not do anything to another member of society if that action might cut down />on how much benefit i can derive from society. /(hudson) /why is your benefit somehow related to morality. again, your definition is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot. /(hudson) /what about if someone feels that their own personal benefit is enhanced /more than it would be damaged by depleting the overall resources of society? /maybe something might hurt society, but it would help him immensly? that is irrational thinking. there may also be people out there who think that death by atomic destruction is a sublime and wonderful thing. i am not going to let them execute that idea just because they want to do it. simply because i let people make up their minds about what morals they have doesn't prevent me from spotting and stopping a madman when i see one, hudson. and even then, i will only stop him when he interferes with me and my life. that is the difference between me and you: you want to interfere in people's lives even when they aren't affecting /(hudson) /the central character in dostoevsky's novel, crime and punishment, /(r something or other) reasoned that if killed this old jewish woman and /stole her money to educate and establish himself financially, he could /make a great contribution to society. he reasoned that she was not of /much profit to society. she just collected rents, and hoarded money. one of the central points of any (that's any) moral system is that is has to be internally consistent. by killing her, the character had to accept the premise that the ends justify the means. if he accepted that premise, then (in order to be consistent), he must accept the idea that some day another person may apply the same standard to his life. now, if he is unwilling to accept this premise (which he will not be willing to accept), then he has behaved inconsistently with his own moral standard. /(me) /[football example deleted] /(hudson) /now suppose a freshman on the bench will only get to play if one of the /players in the field/on the court is injured (or killed.) this freshman /wants to play in the big game so a talent scout can see him. if he hurts /a player on the team, it might slightly lessen the chances of the team to /win, but he might gain great personal benefit. so, operating on purely /selfish (immorally selfish) motives, he arranges for a sniper to shoot a /team player in the leg. he gets to play in front of the talent scout. /did that freshman behave morally? /selfish intentions may sometimes generate (apparently) moral actions, but /not always. two problems right off the bat: 1. the problem with your analogy is that it doesn't address the goal that i started with: winning the game. playing in front of the talent scout != winning the game. try creating the same analogy and keep the ultimate goal the same, will you? 2. the internal consistency question is also not addressed: if the freshman wants to do this to other people, then he has to accept the fact that it may happen to him one day. if he is unwilling, then he has violated his own moral standard. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82784">
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 /(hudson) /and from a materialistic point of view, it could be said that the nervous /system is just matter. what is wrong with producing chemical reactions in /matter? because this matter is different. it is alive, and self-aware. and it feels pain. /(hudson) /if all morality were relative- big hairy deal. as i said, you appear to be the only person saying that all morality is relative. most people i know do hold some absolutes in their moral system. i >>personally<< believe that the dignity of the individual and the right of free will are absolutes. i recognize that there are some moral systems around which don't accept this; i reject them as dangerous and anti-social (nazism, some forms of communism, fundamentalist xtianity--no, that's not a slam). but for the most part, almost every moral system agrees on these two points. (me) and the sky, and everything in it; everything that was created came out of god. everything, including this matter, is part of god. therefore, is it wrong to put parts of god in a test tube and make it go through reactions? isn't that a form of blasphemy? /(hudson) /generally, christians believe in a creator-creation distinction. other /religions believe in one big whole. i don't accept yor premises. too bad. i know i'm right, so i get to enforce my view upon you whether you like my premise or not. and since you can't prove otherwise, there isn't even an intellectual basis for your resistance to accepting my /(hudson) /how long will it be before the "as long as it doesn't hurt someone else" /becomes more and more relative until the only rule that is left is /"i will do what i want to do, no matter who it hurts." there's a big jump between those two positions, and you know it very well. don't play stupid. i realize that you're trying to dispute what you call "popular morality" by using what you think is logic, but you're stretching this a bit too thin. /(hudson) /i don't think so. once morality becomes relative, it degenerates. i am /saying that reasoning that it is generally evil to hurt other people is bad. /(though i don't think it is sufficient.) well, then answer me this: you seem to be opposed to moral relativism (as you call it) because it has the capacity to degenerate. obviously, then, you would advocate a nonrelative (absolute) moral system. whose absolutist moral system do we choose? how do we come to this decision? what about people who disagree with the chosen moral system? /(hudson) /but if morality is considered to /be relative, and this rule isn't based on anything, but is just an arbitrary /rule, people might abandon it. fine. i can agree with most of what you typed here. however, just because morality gets based on something nonrelative does not mean that we have to pick your xtianity as its base. we can start a morality based on dignity of humans, freedom of choice, tolerance, etc. and never ever rely on xtianity for anything. just because someone has a consistent moral system based on true principles does not mean that they have to involve xtianity in it. xtianity certainly does not have a monopoly on principles of behavior; indeed, fewer religions are guiltier of violating their own principles 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82785">
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 /why would it be immoral to hurt someone else? /(me) because you wouldn't want it to happen to you. /(hudson) /why does that make something immoral? because you are not being consistent. moral systems must be consistent. a person who thinks they can inflict pain on others, but doesn't want it inflicted upon themselves, has a double standard. and double standards are a violation of *any* moral system. (me) morality defines how we interact with other people; the rules that we use to guide our daily affairs. our conduct towards our fellow man. by realizing that we don't like pain, we can also realize that other people don't like it, either. /(hudson) /of course we don't like pain. i don't like brussel sprouts. are brussel /sprouts immoral? pain isn't immoral, stupid. pain itself is just a physiological what >>is<< immoral is subjecting unwilling individuals to pain. or brussel sprouts, for that matter. (hudson) /is it immoral to produce these same chemical reactions in a test tube? (me) it isn't the chemical reaction that is wrong, bozo. it's making the human being undergo the effects of the chemical reaction. sorry; your cute little analogy didn't survive for very long under scrutiny. /(hudson) /why would it be wrong to make humans undergo the effects of the reactions /if humans are composed only of matter? what humans are composed of isn't the qualifying criteria of whether or not something would be wrong. /(hudson) /is it wrong to make matter undergo chemical reactions? yes, if it is sentient matter. /(me) />nature is not a sentient force; there is no choice involved. therefore, />no question of morality. /(hudson) /i actually heard a geologist entertain the notion that matter had a will. /there is some sentient force out there. fine. i have also heard that the government is encoding the dna for a new race of superhumans in ordinary drinking water. what's your point? /(hudson) /if humans are made only of matter, then choices are also chemical reactions, /so why is choice an important issue. and if that is the case, then god is only an idea contained in the minds of people (formed of matter) and on printed pages (also formed of matter) and does not really exist. i can do the argumentem ad absurdium just as well as you can, but it won't prove any points for you or me. got anything relevant you want to talk about, or are you just playing cute little games? 
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 specifically: when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories, i usually get blank stares or flat denials. i've never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation. that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible. "were formed" can also be translated "had been formed" in chapter two without any problems. so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories. link hudson. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82787">
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 but there is a base of true absolute morality that we can stand on. note that if the majority of people remain unconvinced, this idea probably isn't worth very much in a pragmatic sense. maybe not to you. but to those who stand on this base, he is 
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 first of all as far as i know, only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles, so you're off the hook there, actually, there is one condemnation of lesbian acts in the bible, romans 1:26. i think. in any event, there are *plenty* of people in many denominations who do not consider a person's sexual identification of gay/lesbian/bisexual as an "immoral lifestyle choice" there are plenty who don't read the bible. or pray for that matter. link hudson. 
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 on a slightly different note: there are two buildings in ny state with big 666 numbers on the roof :) one in manhattan and one near garden city. the garden city one is a nice black unmarked building... ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82794">
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 specifically: when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories, i usually get blank stares or flat denials. i've never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation. that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible. "were formed" can also be translated "had been formed" in chapter two without any problems. so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories. really? i don't get it... genesis first says that god created the earth, then the animals, then humans; then it turns around and says that humans were created before animals! how can you escape this _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 (lots of stuff about the nicene creed deleted which can be read in the original basenote. i will also leave it up to other lds netters to take mr. weiss to task on using mormon doctrine to declare the difinitive word on what the lds church teaches as doctrine. hopefully the lds netters will be amiable in their explanation.) since it would do no good to rebut what mr. weiss has stated on the origin of the nicene creed and its status as devine and inspired (i say "no good" because it cannot be proved through discussion or debate as to whether or not the authors of the creed were inspired), i leave you (it will be some time before i post again) with the following thought authored by eugene england, professor of english at brigham young university. mr. england wrote the following as part of a book review section in this people's magazine (spring 1993 edition): "i conclude with a little sermon because i believe we will not be a mormon-- or human--family until we can get over labeling and rejecting each other with terms like feminist or patriarchal, liberal or conservative (christian or non-christian -- hal 8^). when we are tempted to draw a circle around a set of beliefs and traditions and styles and call it american, then exclude those who don't fit, it may be well to consider that perhaps the most central defining characteristic of a good american might be "one who doesn't draw exclusive circles" -- that the surest way of excluding ourselves from the central american ideal is by excluding others. and when we are tempted to draw a circle around "mormon" or "christian," to decide who is "orthodox" and who isn't by how much they agree with us, it might be well to consider that the central pillar of christ's "orthodoxy" is our ability to love unconditionally those who are different and include them in our family. "i recently spent some time in a "christian" bookstore in california. the service was excellent, the clerks and customers all smiling, neat, and well-scrubbed, and there were the expected wholesome offerings of scriptural commentaries, sentimental fiction, and collections of evangelistic sermons. but i was dismayed to find how much shelf space was given to attacking others, often viciously---whether the political left, our modern american culture, or other religions. a whole section was devoted to "cults and the occult," and as you might expect, mormonism was right there under the same rubric and indictment (often by the same authors) as satanism. and i found i could either rent or buy (in english or spanish) copies of the god makers (that absurdly inaccurate, even libelous, but very popular and dangerous anti-mormon film that uses exaclty the same techniques and even accusations of the nazi films that scapegoated jews in the 1930s). "it seems to me one major indication that a person is a genuine convert to christ and his redemptive love is his lack of paranoia and anxiety ("perfect love casteth out fear," i john 4:18). i have always been pleased that the lds church has not engaged in attacks on other faiths, though i find a disheartening increase in willingness of individual mormons to engage in the same kinds of stereotyping and scapegoating---and even threats of coercive action---as the "religious right wing" has launched this year against the political left and american cultural and religious styles they don't like. it is a fearful irony that in so doing mormons take common cause with the very people who have most slanderously attacked mormons---people who would, if they had power, forcefully restrict mormons' rights along with those of others they believe to be evil." the above "sermon" was addressed to the lds audience who usually subscribe to this people's magazine, but would certainly apply to all of us who rely on the mercies and grace of jesus christ to bring us back into his even though the lds church claims devine authority to exercise the principles of the restored gospel---as in the days of christ, the church does not claim perfection and infallibility in how those with authoritative status have or do now lead the church. i, for one, do not wish to be labelled "christian", if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent (for example) of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it. once again, being in the majority does not in and of itself prove anything except that your collective voice is louder. that's really all the critics of the lds church have to stand on in terms of the kind of biblical interpretation used as proof to counter the lds church' interpretation! using someone elses biased research of truths and non-truths (whose to say what the mixture is?) as an authoritative tool to disprove or discredit is not being fair to anyone, least of all themselves. let us simply agree to disagree, and share beliefs through adult discussion and conversation, thereby uplifting everyone. hal leifson -- signing off! 
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 not to be too snide about it, but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion, very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don't match with one's desires. it is, in fact, so convenient that, were i capable of believing in a god, i might consider going for some brand of christianity. the only difficulty left then, of course, is picking which sect to join. there are just so many. dean kaflowitz yes, christianity is convenient. following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient. trying to love in a hateful world is convenient. turning the other cheek is convenient. so convenient that it is burdensome at times. some christians take a 10% discount off the ten commandments. sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath. 
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 hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. john 16:24 
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 [...dr. england's story deleted, it was a nice read the first time through...]] now lead the church. i, for one, do not wish to be labelled "christian", if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent (for example) of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it. it isn't so much a matter of 'interpretation' of bible texts that sets mormonism apart from orthodoxy as it is a matter of *fabrication*. about 20 years ago, _national lampoon_ had some comic strips in them that were drawn by neal adams. they were called "son o' god" comics. it was a parody of the jesus in the bible. in the comic, there were a group of thirteen jewish kids from brooklyn, and when one of them said the magic word, he turned into "son o' god." he went from a myopic, curly headed, yarmulke wearing boy to a replica of the stylizied portraits of jesus --- with long flowing brown hair and gentile now, if someone were to profess faith in this natlamp jesus, and claim that they were a christian because they believed in this natlamp jesus, we would have to say that this was fallacious since this jesus was a fabrication, and did not really exist. this is the exact same thing that the lds do when they claim that they are christian. they profess faith in jesus, but the jesus that they profess to have faith in is as much a fabrication as the natlamp jesus was. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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 well, i *will* do the math, and i get: (6^6)^6=2,189,739,336 this mean anything to anyone? :^) 5*1=5 thus fitting in neatly with something else. of course, 2+1+8+9+7+3+9+3+3+6 = 51, which, quite obviously is 23+23+5... 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc82800">
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 i was not directly going to come up with a moral argument for the existence of god. rather, i was trying to show the absurdity of atheistic materialist relatavists trying to embrace some common moral system as though it were absolute. man knows in his heart that there is right and wrong. we have all inherited this knowledge. no matter how "absurd" it is to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is absolute, it is not contrary to reason to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is sensible. in fact, for the bible to be of any use to mankind as a moral code, it must be interpreted by mankind and a workable moral system created for everyday use. the jewish talmud is the result of centuries of biblical scholars analysing every word of the torah to understand the morality behind it. the children of israel were given a very strict set of moral, civil, judicial and ceremonial laws to follow and yet this was clearly not enough to cover every instance of moral dilemma in their society. for a christian, the situation is no better. it seems to me that the only code of morality that we have from the judeo- christian god is that which is contained in the bible (which we can see from the diverse opinions in the christian newsgroups is not clear). there may well be an absolute morality defined by the judeo-christian god for mankind to follow but it seems that we only have a subset simply because the concept was written down by man. this leads to the problem of defining morality for our society. if we take the divine morality then we have a code of practice which may be interpreted in many different ways (as an example, consider the immolation of heretics in the fifteenth century and the interpretation of the bible which allows a man to do that to another man under the precept to administer justice). if we take an agnostic morality then we have a code of practice that can be modified to suit society (with all the danger that this implies). alternatively, we could take the basis of the judeo-christian morality and interpret/extend this to create and justify a code of morality which suits the society we live in and enables the people to live righteously (as many christian and non-christian philosophers have done). whatever the driving force behind the definition of morality for our society, i think the important aspect is the result. on religion: "oh, where is the sea?", the fishes cried, as they swam its clearness through. 
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 the primary problem in human nature is a "fragmentation of being." humans are in a state of tension, a tension of opposites. good and evil are the most thought provoking polarities that come to mind. the bible provides us with many examples of the fragmentation of being. the warring opposites within us are a product of man's rebellion against god, which is described so vividly in the pages of the scriptures. man was created with the order to become a god. those were the words of st. basil in the fourth century. what he was trying to say was that god created man to be a partaker of the divine nature. in the eastern orthodox church, this is called "theosis," or "deification." one can also say that man was created to be whole, i.e. spirit, soul, and body operating in unison. the story of adam and eve is a picture of the archetypal humans before obtaining moral consciousness. theirs was a harmonious relationship with each other, the world, and the creator. that innocent harmony was shattered when they disobeyed god, their natural wholeness falling apart into two seemingly irreconcilable halves. immediately, guilt and fear was manifested in their lives. they become bound to hardship, toil, and suffering. this is symbolized in their exile from the paradisiac state. the beast in the jungle does not possess moral consciousness. if it were to receive this self-awareness, the knowledge of good and evil, its paradisiac state would also be destroyed. was it the intention of the creator to leave man in this state of innocence all the days of his existence on earth? or was the gaining of self-awareness carefully staged by god, who did not desire that his masterpiece, mankind, be a blissful idiot? god must have known that, for mankind to achieve any kind of moral value, he must pass through a confrontation with the opposites. there is no other way to achieve union with god. jesus christ is the answer to the problem of the warring polarities. he was the perfectly integrated individual, reconciling the opposites, and making it possible for us to be integrated, i.e. to become god, not in his essence, but in his energies. the opposites is the christian problem. the apostle paul describes it with the utmost precision in romans 7:15-24. and he follows with the answer to his dilemma in vs 25. 
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 # are there any places in the bible where the commandment "thou # shalt not kill" is specifically applied? that is, where someone # refrained from killing because he remembered the commandment. no, for the excellent reason that there is no such commandment. aside from that, please note that the abrahamic literary tradition is strong on narrative, light on dialog, and virtually nonexistent w/r/t introspection. --- d. c. sessions speaking for myself --- --- note new network address: dcs@witsend.tnet.com --- --- author (and everything else!) of tmail (dos mail/news shell) --- 
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 exactly. sunday worship is in honor or the *sun*, not the *son* of god. same thing, isn't it? it's pronounced the same? what other heavenly beings are resurrected? the moon? that would by lunacy, at least to a sunday worshiper. i have heard that the sabbath was originally determined by the phases of the moon, and had elements of moon worship. early stuff, egyptian in nature. -- larry caldwell caldwell@ohsu.edu compuserve 72210,2273 oregon health sciences university. (503) 494-2232 
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 un resolution 666 guarantees humanitarian aid will get into irag during the gulf war. is this war over? is aid getting in, or are they still trying to smoke out saddam? is this the middle east? are we talking religious war here? am i ranting? james owens ad354@freenet.carleton.ca ottawa, ontario, canada 
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 unlike kleptomaniacs and adulterers homosexuals hurt no one by having sex with the same sex. what about the homosexual whose family does not accept that decision and is hurt (emotionally) by it? good question. i don't have a nice concise answer, though. what about the child whose parents are crushed emotionally because he/she starts a carerr doing something they greatly dislike. it is the same kind of harm, and is probably "caused" by the same thing: the desire of the child to be true to his or her self. what is more important, being true to yourself or burying that truth within you in order to maintain peace in the family? hard question, no good answer. 
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 i posted this several days ago for dave butler. he may have missed it - my usenet board has changed a little. just in case he missed it, here it is again. dave butler writes... newsgroups: talk.religion.misc "i can basically restrict this post to showing the type of evidence mr decenso has presented, and answering his two questions (and a couple of his spurious insults and false claims)." my reply... o.k. db... [by the way mr decenso, you really should have looked in the index of your bauer-arndt-gingrich greek lexicon. you would have found that the word in acts for "lot" is "kleros," not "chorion" as stated by mr archer, and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to "theological dictionary of the new testament" by bromley, is the meaning "burial plot" discussed. it discusses the forms of "kleros" (eg: kleros, kleroo, etc), and the various meanings of "kleros" (eg: "plot of land," and "inheritance"), but mentions nothing about chorion or "burial plot." (why does this not surprise me?) thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference.] db later corrected himself... newsgroups: talk.religion.misc i owe the group an apology. it is my habit to check my articles before and after their submission for errors. in my last article i stated: (by the way mr decenso, you really should have looked in the index of your bauer-arndt-gingrich greek lexicon. you would have found that the word in acts for "lot" is "kleros," not "chorion" as stated by mr archer, and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to "theological dictionary of the new testament" by bromley, is the meaning "burial plot" discussed. it discusses the forms of "kleros" (eg: kleros, kleroo, etc), and the various meanings of "kleros" (eg: "plot of land," and "inheritance"), but mentions nothing about chorion or "burial plot." (why does this not surprise me?) thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference). i was wrong. i admit that i do not have a handle on greek grammar, and thus confused "kleros", the second to last word in acts 1:17 as being the plot of land discussed. in actuality it is "chorion", which is the last word acts 1:18. unfortunately my greek dictionary does not discuss "chorion" so i cannot report as to the nuances of the word. i don't know if someone else would have caught this, though i am sure that someone would be able to do so, but i have an aversion to disseminating mistakes, especially when someone else might use that mistake to prove a point" my reply... vary noble of you dave. i didn't want to have to go to x number of sources to show you wrong. (although i am researching chorion a little). db... "of course the only other reference mr decenso has given is bullinger. and bullinger uses such ridiculous exegisis that when i accused mr decenso of actually believing bullinger, he replied that i misquoted him: "and you maintain that you find such exegesis convincing? oh dear." my reply... your misquotes of me are astounding, dave. read the beginning of this part of > my response to see what i really said in my posting of this article. [actually mr decenso, you said that there was "benefit" to our argument, in that it caused to to rediscover bullinger's exegisis. i did not realize that you would find such garbage beneficial, unless you were convinced by it]." my reply... thank you for correcting your restating of my points. db... "and mr decenso also replied: dave, these are not necessarily my views; they are bullinger's. we will discuss the land issue in later posts, i'm sure. i'm only responding to this one you have directed re: bullinger's views because it's enjoyable. thus i apologize for thinking that even mr decenso could find such "drek" convincing....he should specify which parts of bullinger he finds convincing and quit hiding behind a disingenuous mask of "this is what bullinger believed, not necessarily what i believe." so which is it mr decenso? do you find the exegisis convincing or not?)" my reply... one of my purposes in debating these alleged contradictions with you and others is to diseminate many different views of possible reconciliations raised by various bible scholars and students alike. when i present my views, i will clearly distinguish them from now on. db... "of course without archer and bullinger we find that mr decenso has presented no greek exegisis at all, and mr decenso has made a big thing about my not referring back to the actual greek. thus we find this demand on his part for quality greek exegisis to be a hypocritical requirement." my reply... good point. but in your declaring that these passages are contradictory, you have produced only superficial reasonings and observations. nor have you dug deeper. i'm glad you have begun in this post. i will begin greek studies on these passages in more depth than i thought necessary, as well. db... "it would be appropriate to look at what mr decenso has actually used as evidence. now we know what he claims for a standard, as he has stated it often enough: (a) the text itself (b) parallel passages (c) other pertinent scriptures (d) historical context (e) historical content (f) other pertinent historical info (g) cultural context (h) cultural content (i) other pertinent cultural info (j) grammatical construction (k) hebrew and greek word studies (l) etc. but are these actual standards he has used, or simply empty hyperbole. let's see, he has used (a), and since he is trying to reconcile it to other passages, we see that he has also used (b). on the other hand he has presented no use of: (d) historical context or (e) historical content or (f) other pertinent historical info or (g) cultural context or (h) cultural content or (i) other pertinent cultural info or (j) grammatical construction or even (k) hebrew and greek word studies [remember, archer and bullinger don't count] thus we find his vaunted criteria for exegisis is just empty mouthings." my reply... question: do you find such criteria important? if so, do you plan on starting to use them to the best of your ability, or will you continue to present shallow observations (i don't mean this in a bad way). at this point in our _debates_, i have not found it necessary to present a total exegetical analysis of these passages, since we seem to keep beating around the bush and not getting into the core of the verses. i do not believe it necessary to use many of the above criteria to refute your arguments re: judas in acts and matthew, but i will do my best from this point on to use several of the above criteria, since you desire me to. i hope you will also. it will greatly enhance our study of these passages. db... "the only thing he has actually used, beyond the passage itself, is any other passage. thus mr decenso should be honest and note that most of his list is red herring and his only real criteria seems to be: (a) the text itself (b) parallel passages my reply... the reason is simple...you are mistating the passages. you claim that the passages contradict one another; i do not see the passages contradicting one (1) they may very well be complimentary, as many scholarly sources mention; (2) matthew may not be presenting judas' death, as you claim. but we'll look at your defense of this later. also, the "reward of iniquity" in the acts passage may not be the 30 pieces of silver in matthew's passages. (although you have a valiant attempt later at stating why you believe it is). at this beginning stages in our debates, we are laying some scriptural groundwork, which will be expanded upon through deeper exegesis. db... "of course the only reason i can see to so drastically reinterpret a passage as he has done with judas' death, is to make it agree with another passage so that both could be considered correct." my reply... one of the reasons i have given a different exegetical view of the passages is that you seem to think the majority of scholarship is wrong in concluding these passages are complimentary. however, i see no problem in tony rose's explanation of judas' death... how would you explain the inaccuracy between judas hanging himself in matthew 27:5 and "falling headlong he burst open" this question of the manner in which judas died is one with which we are constantly confronted in our travels. many people point to the apparent discrepancy in the two accounts as an obvious, irreconcilable error. some have gone so far as to say that the idea of an inerrant bible is destroyed by these contradictory accounts. however, this is not the case at matthew relates that judas hanged himself, while peter tells us he fell and was crushed by the impact. the two statements are indeed different, but do they necessarily contradict each other? matthew does not say that judas did not fall; neither does peter say that judas did not hang himself. this is not a matter of one person calling something black and the other person calling it white. both accounts can be true and supplementary. a possible reconstruction would be this: judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom. after he hung there for some time, the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge, mangling his body in the process. the fall could have been before *or* after death as either would fit this explanation. this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined. from the bottom of the valley, you can see rocky terraces 25 to 40 feet in height and almost perpendicular. there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom. therefore, it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down, tearing his body open. it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall. louis gaussen relates a story of a man who was determined to kill himself. this individual placed himself on the sill of a high window and pointed a pistol at his head. he then pulled the trigger and leaped from the window at the same time. on the other hand, a person could say that this man took his life by shooting himself, while another could rightly contend he committed suicide by jumping form the tall building. in this case, both are true, as both are true in the case of matthew's and peter's accounts of the death of judas. it is merely a situation of different perspectives of the same event. your only reason for rejecting this is, i believe, your attempt to discredit inerrancy. you haven't related how this is impossible or highly unlikely. here's what you said in an earlier post... db [quoting tony rose]... there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom. therefore, it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down, tearing his body open. it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall. "the added text in this version is so heavy that, assuming you are truly so opposed to such tactics, you should find it not credible. but you seem to find tony rose's eisegesis satisfactory, while clearly rejecting david joslin's." here, you discredit tony's explanation based on what you deem too "heavy" for the passages. but you haven't addressed why you feel that way. you can say it's a vain attempt to reconcile the contradiction, but that doesn't tell me it didn't happen, nor have you shown why you reject that possibility. questions: is matthew lying or is luke lying? or are they both lying? or are either or both of them misinformed? why do you think there is such an alleged contradiction? i do not think you have ever told us what you believe in this respect. db... "at present though, mr decenso only asks two questions of me: (1) you claim acts and matthew contradict one another in representing judas' death. i ask you again to provide evidence that matthew stated judas died in the hanging. (2) you claim that the 30 pieces of silver in matthew that judas threw down in the temple and the chief priests used, is the "reward of iniquity" in acts that pictures judas in some way purchasing a field with; therefore there is a contradiction. prove that the 30 pieces of silver and the "reward of iniquity" are one and the same. actually i find question (1) to be a rather stupid request, but i will answer it because he now restricts himself to two points. first i would point out that hanging is a very efficient manner for ending a life. in fact it is a bit of a fluke when someone survives hanging (except in fantasy cowboy movies), and even then it usually referred to as an attempted hanging." my reply... i work at an agency that investigates child abuse and neglect. today, i got a call re: a child that attempted suicide by hanging himself because his mother is on crack. he failed in his attempt and is in a child's psych ward at a local hospital. hanging attempts are not always successful. to assume that because most hangings are successful, this one was also is "begging the question", if i may quote you. [last night, listening to _the bible answer man_ broadcast, the christian research institute's show, one of the scholars on there used several of these terms that you use. i am not all that familiar with them. the man on the bam show teaches comparative religion and logic. it was interesting] db... "this is so prevalent that, so that to say a man hung himself with no other qualifiers is synonymous with stating that he killed himself." my reply... qualifiers are important at times, as we'll see in an ot passage i'll mention does hanging always have this outcome? did matthew, who is the only source we have re: judas hanging himself, state that judas died as a result? to say it's synonymous means it has the same meaning as. a boy (age 14) hung himself. but he lived. this is only one of probably thousands of documented cases we can db... "now i am not alone in this thought; in fact, since mr decenso so respects christian scholarly (including greek scholars) opinion, i did some research." my reply... thank you, dave. db... "interestingly, not one of the christian references i read, interpreted the hanging as being anything but a fatal suicide. ^^^^^^^^^^^ my reply... [^^^ above, mine] so it's ok to use christian sources to back your points? what about tony's position. do you value it or even consider it as a valid possibility? also, is it possible that the sources you read may be wrong, or lying, or deceived in other parts of their books? if so, should we do, as we have done with archer, toss them to the side and not value anything they say, including their "interpretation" of the hanging of judas? i am sure _you_ would find some errors and maybe even some deception in those sources. you also noted they "interpreted" the hanging as meaning he died. although that is very possibly true, do you find that in the text itself? remember, that's the first criteria we must examine. db... "this included: "the biblical knowledge commentary" by woodward and zuck" my reply... which i own. it's a good source of commentary info. but not inerrant. db... "the interpreters on volume commentary on the bible" by laydon "the one volume bible commentary" by j r dunelow "word meanings of the testament" ralph earl "the abingdon bible commentary" published by abingdon "harpers bible commentary" by william neal (actually i could have presented many more as well) my reply... i appreciate your doing this research, dave. maybe we are getting somewhere in how we both should approach these alleged contradictions - more in depth db... "in each case, these references specifically describe that the interpretation of matt 27:5 as successful, suicide and thus i can only conclude that the greek word "apagchw"(ie: hang oneself) is translated as a successful hanging." my reply... [^^^ above, mine] no you can't only conclude this, although, as tony says, this was a highly probable outcome. but matthew does not state death as being a result. the greek word is apagcho. matthew 27:5 is it's only occurrence in the new in the septuagint (the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus), it's only used in 2 samuel 17:23 : "now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed, he saddled a donkey, and arose and went home to his house, to his city. then he put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died; and he was buried in his father's tomb." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel "hanged himself" [gr. sept., apagcho], but it explicitly adds, "and died". here we have no doubt of the in matthew, we are not explicitly told judas died. also, there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure. it simply means "hang oneself". db... "but mr decenso, you are more than welcome to disagree and show more reputable christian scholars that insist that the hanging was not successful." my reply... [^^^above, mine] "reputable"? you mean ones that have never erred? as far as insisting that the hanging was unsuccessful, that can't be done, even by me. ^^^^^^^^^ as i said in an earlier post... although i still agree with tony's exegesis as being the most probable explanation regarding judas' death (taking into account several criteria), i've recently noticed some new things in matthew. mat 27:5-8 then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "it is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood." and they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day. first of all, notice that the text does not say that judas died as a result of hanging. all it says is that he "went and hanged himself." luke however, in acts, tells us that "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." this is a pretty clear indication (along with the other details given in acts - peter's speech, the need to pick a new apostle, etc.) that at least after judas' fall, he was dead. so the whole concept that matthew and luke both recount judas' death is highly probable, but not clear i also wrote... my reply... here we have a stickler, dave, that i have to say i just recently noticed. let's look at the passage in matthew: mat 27:4 saying, "i have sinned by betraying innocent blood." and they said, "what is that to us? you see to it!" mat 27:5 then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. mat 27:6 but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "it is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood." mat 27:7 and they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. mat 27:8 therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day. notice verse 5..."then he...went and hanged himself." matthew does not say judas died, does it? should we assume he died as a result of the hanging? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what does acts say? act 1:18 (now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. act 1:20 "for it is written in the book of psalms: 'let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it'; and, 'let another take his office.' here we may have a graphic explanation of judas' death....so, my line of reasoning to dispel your contradiction myth re:the "two" accounts of judas' death is this...matthew doesn't necessarily explain how judas died; he does say judas "hanged himself", but he didn't specifically say judas died in the hanging incident. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ however, acts seems to show us his graphic demise. therefore, there is no contradiction between matthew and acts re: judas' `death'. my reply... ...we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death. although it's possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks, thereby bursting open, i can no longer assume that to be the case. therefore, no contradiction. matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging, did he? most scholars believe he probably did, but...? i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars' explanations, but in looking at the texts initially, we can't assume judas died. it is, however, highly probable. ^^^^^^ db... "by the way, while all agree that judas died from the hanging, the books had different ways of dealing with the contradiction we are discussing. one simply ignored it entirely and simply referred back to matthew's version as the correct version in both matt and acts. "the biblical knowledge commentary" suggested the hypotheses that judas hung and then when he rotted, his belly exploded (which doesn't explain his headlong fall), or that his branch or rope broke, and he fell to his death and his gut gushed out (which doesn't explain how a hanging man, would fall headlong rather than feet first)." my reply... the outcome of any fall is dependent upon many factors...how high the person was suspended before the fall, any obstructions such as tree branches that may have deviated the fall, how steep an incline of rocky surfaces the victim fell upon, thus possibly rolling or bouncing of several rocks, etc. in a superficial examination of the acts passage and the matthew passage, we are not given a lot of info on the geographical specifics, but tony in the above quoted post gave us some... a possible reconstruction would be this: judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom. after he hung there for some time, the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge, mangling his body in the process. the fall could have been before *or* after death as either would fit this explanation. this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined. from the bottom of the valley, you can see rocky terraces 25 to 40 feet in height and almost perpendicular. there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom. therefore, it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down, tearing his body open. db... now truthfully, i do not see what is comforting about matthew confusing the source of the potter's field prophesy, but on the other hand the author is correct: matthew does make that confusion. of course a biblical inerrantist who claim that every word of the bible is guaranteed true by god, will have to thereby add one more contradiction to the death of judas (ie: where the prophesy of the potter's field came from)." my reply... please, when we are done with this study on his death, remind me to discuss this with you. db... as to your second question mr decenso, you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land, was indeed for the betrayal, rather than some other source. i would point out that in acts, where it specifically mention "the reward of iniquity" [acts 1:18], it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about (ie: acts 1:16 "...concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus."). now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of "iniquity," and then immediately discusses "*the* reward of iniquity," it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed." my reply... dave, we are getting somewhere, aren't we! act 1:15 and in those days peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, act 1:16 "men and brethren, this scripture had to be fulfilled, which the holy spirit spoke before by the mouth of david concerning judas, who became a guide to those who arrested jesus; act 1:17 "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry." act 1:18 (now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. act 1:19 and it became known to all those dwelling in jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, akel dama, that is, field of blood.) act 1:20 "for it is written in the book of psalms: 'let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it'; and, 'let another take his office.' notice that in verse 16, the word "iniquity" is not used. rather, it states that judas "became a guide to those who arrested jesus". but the writer did not stop there...vs. 17, "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry." what part did judas play in their ministry? joh 12:6 this he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. joh 13:29 for some thought, because judas had the money box, that jesus had said to him, "buy those things we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. so, now we know what part judas played - he was a treasurer, per se. right after peter stated that judas played a part in this ministry (treasurer, according to john), then luke adds the parenthetical explanation of "wages of iniquity" - money that should have been put into the ministry, but was stolen by judas to purchase a field. i believe this is a better exegetical explanation of what the "wages of iniquity" are. what do you think, dave? db... "now since i have given you clear answers (and even references), perhaps you could unequivocally state what type of inerrantist you are (instead of asking me what type i think you are, as you did to mr joslin)." my reply... i will gladly admit that i am a complete inerrantist, although i do not have that big a problem with the limited inerrancy view. "if one wished to contend with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand." job 9:3 
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 not to be too snide about it, but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion, very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don't match with one's desires. it is, in fact, so convenient that, were i capable of believing in a god, i might consider going for some brand of christianity. the only difficulty left then, of course, is picking which sect to join. there are just so many. dean kaflowitz yes, christianity is convenient. following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient. trying to love in a hateful world is convenient. turning the other cheek is convenient. so convenient that it is burdensome at times. some christians take a 10% discount off the ten commandments. sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath. make that 20%. where did i see that poll recently about the very religious and adultery? was it this newsgroup or alt.atheism or some other place? dean kaflowitz 
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 mr decenso, in spite of requiring scholarly opinion on the hanging of judas, rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases those scholars opinion on the subject: ...we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death. although it's possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks, thereby bursting open, i can no longer assume that to be the case. therefore, no contradiction. matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging, did he? most scholars believe he iprobably did, but..? i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars' explanations, but in looking at the texts initially, we can't assume judas died. it is, however, highly probable. ^^^^^^ also, there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure. it simply means "hang oneself". actually, if you do further research as to the greek word "apacgw," you will find that it does denote success. those scholars did indeed have an excellent reason to assume that the suicide was successful. as i pointed out, i recently checked several lexicons: "greek english lexicon of the new testament," louw and nida "robinson's greek and english lexicon of the new testament" "greek english lexicon of the new testament," grimm "word study concordance," tynsdale "a greek english lexicon of the new testament and other early christian writings," bauer-arndt-gingrich "the new analytical greek lexicon," perschbacher a couple simply stated "hanged oneself", and a couple were more explicit and stated that "apacgw" means specifically "kill yourself by hanging." a couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for "apacgw" is "strangle, throttle or choke" (which pretty much invalidates the guy who suggested to david joslin that judas was hung upside down). one of the best references though, "robinson's greek and english lexicon of the new testament," not only stated the translation, it gave both the root words, the literal translation, related greek words which use the same roots, and also other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature (to give further context). the word "apagchw" has two root words: "gchw" is the "to strangle" root, and the root word "apo" means literally "away." this root words is included in words which denote a transition. it can mean a transition in place (eg: the greek word "apagello" means to send a message). "apo" can also denote a change in state and specifically the change from life to death. robinson specifically makes comparison to the word "apokteiuo," which means "to kill." in literal meaning the word "apacgw" means "to throttle, strangle to put out of the way," and implicitly denotes a change in life state (ie: away from life, to death). so while the word "apacgw" does mean "to hang," it specifically denotes a death as well. thus robinson is quite specific when he state that it means "to hang oneself, to end one's life by hanging." he then notes the the use of "apacgw" in homers odessy 19:230 to denote context. he presents that example of "apacgw" as being used to explicitly mean "suicide by hanging." now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling, without the added denotation of "death," and as you insist that the bible was written by god, and every word is precicely correct, you are stuck with the complete meaning of "apacgw" (ie: since the word "apacgw" was used, then death is denoted as the result). by the way, i note that mr decenso also presents an example of "apacgw": in the septuagint (the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus), it's only used in 2 samuel 17:23 : "now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed, he saddled a donkey, and arose and went home to his house, to his city. then he put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died; and he was buried in his father's tomb." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel "hanged himself" [gr. sept., apagcho], but it explicitly adds, "and died". here we have no doubt of the in matthew, we are not explicitly told judas died. note mr decenso, as you say, the septuagint was a translation from hebrew to greek, and you have not shown the original meaning of the hebrew (ie" the the hebrew say "and died"), and thus whether it was simply echoed in the greek. it should also be pointed out that, regardless of the added "and died", the correct translation would still be "apacgw," as the man did indeed die from strangulation (redundant, but correct). further, we have evidence that the septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited (which included versions which contradicted each other), and such editing was not even necessarily executed by greeks. thus i am not sure that you can use the septuagint as it now stands, as a paragon of ancient greek. so, what you really need to prove your point mr decenso, is an example, in ancient greek, of someone committing "apacgw" and surviving. otherwise i would see you as simply making worthless assertions without corresponding evidence. now i would note mr decenso, that everytime i go out of my way to research it one of your apparently contrived exegisis, i pretty much find it false. thus, i think that if you are going to add to the text, something over and above what the source clearly says, then you had better have an explicit greek or historical source to justify it. by the way, as to mr rose's statement about trees around the potter's field: there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom. unless mr rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old, or that there are 2000 year old stumps there, or has a 2 thousand year old description of the area which mentions such trees, then it is inappropriate for him to assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two thousand years ago (after all, things change). now as to your other argument, ie: that the money judas used is not the same as the 30 silvers: as to your second question mr decenso, you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land, was indeed for the betrayal, rather than some other source. i would point out that in acts, where it specifically mention "the reward of iniquity" [acts 1:18], it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about (ie: acts 1:16 "...concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus."). now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of "iniquity," and then immediately discusses "*the* reward of iniquity," it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed." notice that in verse 16, the word "iniquity" is not used. rather, it states that judas "became a guide to those who arrested jesus". but the writer did not stop there...vs. 17, "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry." what part did judas play in their ministry? true, peter (or the author of acts) does not specifically call judas' betrayal "an iniquity," but for that matter, neither does john specifically call judas' actions "an iniquity" either. further john 13:29 did not say that judas took the money box, but rather said: "some thought that because, judas had the money box, jesus was telling him "buy what we need for the feast"; or that he should give something to the poor, so after receiving the morsel he immediately went out, and it was night." note that it is said that judas left, it does not say that he took the money box. thus when i see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose the a an unproven iniquity, mentioned by another author, in a different book, written at a different time, over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by the author of acts. i find this forced and contrived. of course this particular argument becomes moot, since we have have seen evidence that "apacgw" means suicide. you see, since judas' hanging was successful, he could not have spent the money mentioned in john 13:29, because matthew and mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day (ie: passover), and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself the next day. thus the money which bought the "field of blood" would have to have been the 30 pieces of silver (of course he got the 30 pieces of silver that night as well, and thus couldn't have spent that either. oh dear, i believe that the house of cards is comming down). maybe we should at this point, discuss now whether jesus was crucified on friday or saturday as that is now part of the argument about judas. by the way, as to where the prophesy of the potter's field came from (ie: the mention of it in matthew), you say: please, when we are done with this study on his death, remind me to discuss this with you. i am reminding you now to discuss it now. it's all part of the same verse we are discussing, and i wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping these issues. dave butler a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. david hume, philosopher an inquiry concerning human understanding ps. i would note again, that you are not stating that that bible is not possibly inerrant; you are stating that it *is* inerrant. since you have been, by your own admission, presenting merely "possible" reconciliations (i of course don't rate them that highly), then the best you can do is say that the bible is "possibly" inerrant, not that it *is* inerrant. 
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 concerniong this thread... has anyone ever seen "drop dead fred" ?? this movie seems to tipify the "imaginary friend" theme rather well. i loved the movie, as i had an imaginary friend when i was a kid and it borught back great memories. seriously, if you have a chance, see "drop dead fred". it'll make ya think. especially the end. blessings! --kim patrick brosnan. <patb@bnr.co.uk> || ...!mcsun!ukc!stc!patb northern telecomm, oakleigh rd south, london n11 1hb. phone : +44 81 945 2135 or +44 81 945 4000 x2135 "oh, flash, i love you - but we've only got 14 hours to save the universe." 
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 psa 145:9 the lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. jer 13:14 and i will dash them one against another, even the fa- thers and the sons together, saith the lord: i will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. 
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 ps.92:12: "the righteous shall flourish like the palm tree." isa.57:1: "the righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart." 
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 : seriously, though, griffen didn't save the lives of children, and he did : destroy the life of a man, so on the most superficial of levels, he's scum. i almost agree, but griffen is not scum. scum has no guilt or freedom to choose anything. griffen does. god did not make scum when he made griffen. he made a precious person and this person chose to do wrong. the same goes for dr. gunn. : but if you are to examine it more closely, griffen would have preferred that : these children were born -- yet after their birth, did griffen have any : assistance to offer them? did griffen intend to support them, educate them, : raise them up to be useful citizens? did he have any intent whatsoever : to help these children after birth? here's the real problem. americans have become so insensitive to the needs of others and so completely wrapped up in themselves that they cannot see straight or think clearly enough to make even the slightest and most obvious moral decisions based on reality. if a man abandons a woman to care for their child on her own, he is not considered to be a very respectable or decent man by anyone. this man has fled his responsibility, has behaved like a lazy coward, and has turned away from his responsibility to his wife and child. however, if a woman decides to kill her unborn child to release her burden, she is not thought of in the same way. when the man abandons, the woman suffers but the child is free to grow up and live a happy and normal life. when the woman abandons, the child is diced or killed with saline or vacuumed out, and the man has no choice, and the man sometimes suffers so badly that he wishes he could trade places with his child. ths root of this whole problem is selfishness--the arrogance that says, "my feelings and desires are supreme and your well being is not worth dung." and when you come down to it, this is the substance of what hell is made of. it's the reason a loving god can throw selfish people to the devil and his demons for all of eternity. let any one of us unrepentant into heaven, and we'll ruin it the first chance we get. : now, i don't really know the answer to these questions, but i've got a real : good guess. and, it's probably right. : and i wouldn't call *that* 'benevolent', either. it is a move in the right direction. as it is now, we don't see our responsibility because we kill it and get it out of sight. the media backs us completely. real responsibility does not sell. the only "responsibility" that sells in the marketplace is that which is just enough to make us "feel responsible" without showing anything that might show us our own true irresponsibility. we want to "feel" like good people, but we want nothing with *being* good people. just give me the freedom to say "i'm good", and the rest of the world can burn. rape and kill my children and throw my parents to the places where poor old folks rot until they're dead. i'll hate my brother and sister if i wish and i'll cheat on my wife or husband. screw the government, because it screws me, and don't talk to me about giving to the church because church people are all a bunch of money grubbing hypocrites. but, i'm a good person. at least i admit what i do. at least i love myself and we all know that is the greatest love in the world--not that a man lay down his life for his brother...that sounds too "christian". at the root, this is the substance of what hell is made of. we've become a self indulgant, backslidden society no longer responsible to our children, to our parents, to our families, to our government, or to our god. this is the root behind justification of every evil, of every corruption in government, of every slanderous remark, of every lie, and of every murder. society cannot continue to live like this long. it will have to destroy itsself soon, and perhaps in the end, that will be the biggest blessing this world can hope to see. why do people see so much evil in trying to turn this situation around? "i deplore the horrible crime of child murder... we want prevention, not merely punishment. we must reach the root of the evil... it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed... no mater what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed... but oh! thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime." - susan b. anthony, the revolution july 8, 1869 
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 |> its easy... |> 667 >is< the neighbor of the beast (at 666)- |> the beast lives at the end of a cul-de-sac. |> r. i noticed this dead horse in your keywords line. is this the famous scarlet horse of babylon that the beast (that's 666 for you illuminatti) rides on in those wonderful mediaeval manuscripts. if so, i fear your announcement that the old girl is dead may be premature. i bet $20 on her to place in the 6th race at the downs last sunday, and she slid in a bad fifth. so she is not dead. she is just comatose. (like god that way, i suppose). ninja gourmet will fight for food. jim peavler my opinions do not exist. peavler@plk.af.mil that is why they are called albuquerque, nm my opinions. 
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 mr. meritt, please state explicitly the inductive argument which leads you to conclude mr. tice thinks it "ok" to take biblical quotes out of context in some other t.r.m. articles. also, please explain why you rely on inductive reasoning (with its implicit uncertainty) in determining mr. tice's opinions when the man is himself clearly available for questioning. finally, please indicate whether you agree (yes or no) with the following statement: the word "agree" and the phrase "not disagree" are identical in 
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 i'm still waiting to hear a good response from a christian type.. how is christ's word (as quoted by paul) reconciled with current christian almost one third of the world's population claim to be christian. but any similarity between their beliefs and lifestyle to the first century model is purely coincidental. at luke 18:8 it states, "...nevertheless, when the son of man returns, will he really find the faith on the earth?" 
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 frank, i tried to mail this but it bounced. it is fast moving out of t.a scope, but i didn't know if t.a was the only group of the three that you subscribed to. apologies to regular t.a folks. science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, as you would wish it. you must be using 'values' to mean something different from the way i see it used normally. and you are certainly using 'science' like that if you equate it to "the real world". science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions. it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see. values are ... well they are what i value. they are what i would have rather than not have - what i would experience rather than not, and so on. objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone. if there is no such thing as objective value, then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head. i don't agree. science is useful insofar as it the predictions mentioned above are accurate. that is insofar as what i think *will be* the effect on my perceptions of a time lapse (with or without my input to the universe) versus what my perceptions actually turn out to be. but values are about whether i like (in the loosest sense of the word) the perceptions :-) simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards. i don't see why. 'usefulness' in science is synonomous with 'accuracy' - period. tarot predictions are not useful because they are not accurate - or can't be shown to be accurate. science is useful because it is apparently accurate. values - objective or otherwise - are beside the point. 
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 not exactly. the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area, but by the same token it would never be "rebuilt". obviously , if people are still there they would live in houses, correct? their "nets" implies a fishing village. this is exactly what it has become -- a far cry from its original position of stature . let's see, if alexander destroyed tyre, and people move back, and they construct houses, and after a while 14000 people live there and still call it tyre, it is not considered to be rebuilt. instead it's considered to be 'just-some-people-that-got-together-for-fishing- and-they-needed-houses' place. so far i've seen stated figurers ranging from 15,000 to 22,000. let's assume the latter one is correct. by modern standards we are talking about a one-horse town. sigh, i was never born in a city then (my home town has 10.000 people). i have to consult my city and inform them that it's from now a fishing village. when this city (kristinestad) was founded in the 17:th century about 1000 people lived there, so the norms were even more bizarre for dumb swedish queens who founded cities along the coast of finland. i would like to know why paul thought is was worth mentioning the small fishing place of tyre in acts. again, maybe he was a keen fisherman and wanted to visit the shores of tyre? :-) sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 brian kendig contorts . . . it can not be a light which cleanses if it is tainted with the blood of an innocent man. . . . now showing how brian kendig is in the dark of the most fundamental basic of the old testament. concepts like santification and lev. 17:11 must be foreign to you. too bad you are not interested in understanding. too bad you prefer blurting folly even to your own shame. lev 17:11: for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. the old testament was very big on the "eye for an eye" business. it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to "repay" moral wrongdoing. i know about sanctification. i've been taught all about it in sunday school, catechism class, and theology classes. but even after all that, i still can't accept it. maybe i'm still not understanding it, or maybe i'm just understanding it all too well. from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong. i've tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it, but i just can't. if this means that i can't accept the premise that a god who would allow this is 'perfectly good', then so be it. what ignorance you can show us next? i guess i'll wait till tomorrow. if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a *good* thing, then i would be very glad to hear it, and you might even convert me. be warned, however, that i've heard all the most common arguments before, and they just don't convince me. _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) writes ... plus questions for you: why do subjectivists/relativists/nihilists get so het up about the idea that relativism is *better* than objectivism? to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the truth than is objectivism, it provides more power and ability to control events. assuming, for the moment, that morals _are_ relative, then two relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that produces the desired results. assuming that there is an absolute morality, two disagreeing objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right; there is no room for compromise. once you beleive in absolute morals, you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees with you is amoral. given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention, i'd say that compromise seems to be "better". ray fischer "convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray@netcom.com than lies." -- friedrich nietzsche 
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 i would like to apologize for the typos in the previous post. in retrospect i would also like to quote another source: douglas c. haldeman from his 1991 book _homosexuality_ therapy ineffective recently the founders of yet another prominent "ex-gay" ministry, exodus international, denounced their conversion therapy procedures as ineffective. michael busse and gary cooper, cofounders of exodus international and lovers for 13 years, were involved with the organization from 1976 to 1979. the program was described by these men as "ineffective . . . not one person was healed." they stated that the program often exacerbated already prominent feelings of guilt and personal failure among the counselees; many were driven to suicidal thoughts as a result of the failed "reparative therapy." the previous article quoted in the last posting is from the advocate, june 30, 1992 called "the ex-ex-gay" by robert pela. some personal thoughts: it is of no great astonishment that there is a concerted effort by a major portion of the church to control and mandate change of a minority among its ranks. this was the momentum behind the spanish inquisition, only all they required was a confession of faith (after much torture) and then, to save their souls they would dispatch them to heaven through death. even later, the bible was used vigorously to defend slavery, oppression and segragation of african-americans, even to the justification of lynchings. today's scholars are just a bit more slick in their approach. the tool is still coersion, but now it is mostly by means of brainwashing and mind control, convincing people that they should see themselves as less than god sees them, then maintaining a cultic hold on them until it is felt thier mind-conditioning is complete. sure, no one is "physically" forced to stay in this "reparative therapy" but sheer social pressure is enough for many to keep themselves in this new found bondage of self-hate. as an abolitionist i advocate the abolishment of oppression and persecution against gays in all facets of civil life. a person should be judged by the contibution, or non-contribution to the society in which they live, not by some high-brow standard of conformity imposed by those who haven';t a clue what is in their heart. for those who seek more information about gays and groups that accept them please contact your nearest chapter of pflag (parents & friends of lesbians and gays) who will be more than happy to assist you. this is a group of people comprised of gays, lesbians and bisexuals, their parents and friends who have formed a support group for help and understanding. try talking to a parent of a gay son or daughter and learn some "first-hand" real life and loving understanding. god's love and understanding for gay people is no less abundant. thank you. 
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 but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of god, even to them that believe on his name: john 1:12 
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 i was curious to check out how many san jose mercury news mentioned tyre (1990-92). here's the outcome from the research (condenced versions, copyright san jose mercury news): bombings in the two largest cities in southern lebanon killed 11 people wounded 80 others. a car bomb blew up in tyre, killing 10 people and 75. a man was killed and five others seriously wounded in an explosion in an israeli navy patrol boat attacked and sank a rubber guerrilla boat off southern lebanon early today, killing the two men aboard, the army command it said in a communique that a dvora patrol boat opened fire on the motorized rubber dinghy north of tyre after identifying it as hostile. the said no one on the israeli boat was injured. the affiliation of the slain guerrillas was not immediately known. rival factions of the guerrilla group led by terrorist mastermind abu battled sunday in tyre, lebanon, with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades, killing at least four people and wounding 15, police said. lebanon's mainstream shiite muslim militia said thursday that it had uncovered a network of tunnels in a southern lebanese village where it said pro- iranian kidnappers had held western hostages. officials of the militia, amal, led local journalists through the catacomb- like alleys and showed them two cells with iron doors at the village, kawthariyet al siyad, near tyre, the ancient port city, about 40 miles south of the officials said they were certain that u.s. marine lt. col. william higgins was detained there shortly after he was seized by gunmen on a road outside tyre in february 1988. ...anyway, i counted 20 articles during these 3 years of reporting. i also found out the possible reason why the numbers for the inhabitants of the city is defined between 14000 and 24000. it seems that tyre is one of the where people from libanon flee to during more extensive bombings, so there's a constant flow of refugees entering and leaving tyre (articles mentioned thousands of people entering and leaving this place). i counted 0 articles for my home town, kristinestad, so from now i will consider this place to be a fishing village :-). sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 after tons of mail, could we move this discussion to alt.religion? --there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke. (bob dylan) --"if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human being, you'd be a game show host." (taken from the movie "heathers.") --lecture (lek chur) - process by which the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of 
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 text 44 bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam vyavasayatmika buddhih samadhau na vidhiyate bhoga--to material enjoyment; aisvarya--and opulence; prasaktanam--for those who are attached; taya--by such things; apahrta-cetasam--bewildered in mind; vyavasaya-atmika--fixed in determination; buddhih--devotional service to the lord; samadhau--in the controlled mind; na--never; vidhiyate--does take place. in the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the supreme lord does not take samadhi means ``fixed mind.'' the vedic dictionary, the nirukti, says, samyag adhiyate 'sminn atma-tattva-yathatmyam: ``when the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is said to be in samadhi.'' samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. they are more or less condemned by the process of material energy. bhagavad-gita as it is books of a.c. bhaktivedanta swami | don't forget to chant: | | hare krishna hare krishna, krishna krishna hare hare | | hare rama hare rama, rama rama hare hare | | kalki's infoline bbs aiken, south carolina, usa | | (system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us) | 
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 in a previous article, david@terminus.ericsson.se (david bold) says: i don't mean to be rude, but i think that you've got hold of the wrong end of a different stick... i had a look at your posting again and i see what you mean! i was so intent on explaining how jung thought we could be more moral than god that i overlooked your main line of thought. you seem to be saying that, god being unknowable, his morality is unknowable. yep, that's pretty much it. i'm not a jew but i understand that this is the jewish way of thinking. however, the jews believe that the covenant between yhwh and the patriarchs (abraham and moses, in this case) establishes a moral code to follow for mankind. even the jews could not decide where the boundaries fall, though. as i understand it, the sadducees believed that the torah was all that was required, whereas the pharisees (the ancestors of modern judaism) believed that the torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of the required morality in all its nuances (->talmud). the essence of all of this is that biblical morality is an interface between man and yhwh (for a jew or christian) and does not necessarily indicate anything about yhwh outside of that relationship (although one can speculate). the first thing that comes to mind is that man is supposed to be created in his image, so there is an argument that we are committed to whatever moral code he follows as part of trying to live up to that image. if we are supposed to live by christ's example, you would be hard pressed to argue that god is a "do what i say, not what i do" kind of guy. the trouble with all of this is that we don't really know what the "created in his image" means. i've heard a number of different opinions on this and have still not come to any conclusion. this rather upsets the apple cart if one wants to base a life script on this shaky foundation (to mix metaphors unashamedly!) as to living by christ's example, we know very little about jesus as a person. we only have his recorded utterances in a set of narratives by his followers, and some very small references from comtemporary historians. revelation aside, one can only "know" christ second-hand or worse. this is not an attempt to debunk christianity (although it may seem that way initially), the point i`m trying to make is that we only really have the bible to interpret, and that interpretation is by humanity. i guess this is where faith or relevation comes in with all its inherent subjectiveness. metaphysically, if there are multiple moral codes then there is no absolute moral code, and i think this is theologically questionable. no. there may be an absolute moral code. there are undoubtably multiple moral codes. the multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral code. as an example, a parent may tell a child never to swear, and the child may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told the child that it is "wrong". now, the parent may swear like a trooper in the pub or bar (where there are no children). the "wrongness" here is if the child disobeys the parent. the parent may feel that it is "inappropriate" to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of animals. the analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that he is of the same type as the parent (and may be a parent later in life) but you get the gist of it? incidentally, the young child considers the directive as absolute until he gets older (see piaget) and learns a morality of his own. on religion: "oh, where is the sea?", the fishes cried, as they swam its clearness through. 
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 #in article <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@d012s658.uucp (frank #> objective morality is morality built from objective values. #but where do those objective values come from? how can we measure them? #what mediated thair interaction with the real world, a moralon? or a scalar #valuino field? science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, as you would wish it. if there is no such thing as objective value, then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head. simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards. you like those conclusions? i don't. i think that you are changing the meaning of "values" here. perhaps it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word. value n. 1. a fair equivalent or return for something, such as goods or service. 2. monetary or material worth. 3. worth as measured in usefulness or importance; merit. 4. a principle, standard, or quality considered inherently worthwhile or desirable. 5. precise meaning, as of a word. 6. an assigned or calculated numerical quantity. 7. mus. the relative duratation of a tone or rest. 8. the relative darkness or lightness of a color. 9. the distinctive quality of a speech or speech in context of a moral system, definition four seems to fit best. in terms of scientific usage, definitions six or eight might apply. note that these definitions do not mean the same thing. in my mind, to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a reach. science has its basis in observable fact. even the usages of the word "value" above do not denote observable fact, but rather a standard of measurement. i would conclude that science does not have its basis in values, and so your statement above fails. in fact, if one concludes that a scientific set of measurements (values) are based on systems derived from observation, then it must follow that in a scientific context, there is no such thing as there is no such thing as "objective values." back to the present. this has nothing to do with a moral system anyhow. just because the word "values" is used in both contexts does not mean that there is a relationship between the two contexts. if one is to argue for objective values (in a moral sense) then one must first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective. considering the meaning of the word "objective" i doubt that this will ever happen. so, back to the original question: and objective morality is.....? if you can provide an objective foundation for "morality" then that will be a good beginning. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 god can be seen: "and i will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (ex. 33:23) "and the lord spake to moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (ex. 33:11) "for i have seen god face to face, and my life is preserved." (gen. 32:30) god cannot be seen: "no man hath seen god at any time." (john 1:18) "and he said, thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (ex. 33:20) "whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 tim. 6:16) pick what you want! 
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 }>}(a) out of context; }>must have missed when you said this about these other "promises of god" that we keep }>getting subjected to. could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok? }>or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy. both or neither. }so, according to you, jim, the only way to criticize one person for }taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a }response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context? did i either ask or assert that? or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again? }>btw to david josli: i'm still waiting for either your public }>acknowledgement of your }>telepathy and precognition (are you a witch?) or an appology and retraction. }can you wait without whining? to pass the time, maybe you should go }back and read the portions of my article that you so conveniently }deleted in your reply. you'll find most of your answers there. nope: in particular: once he realized that he had example of telepathy? responding jim's threa what threat. produce it. jim again, still mystified more telepathy? or maybe just empathic telepathy, capable of determining emotional states. jim, trying to more telepathy. how do you know "trying"?!?!? jim, preparing to precognition? substantiate. all this taken from your message-id: <8257@blue.cis.pitt.edu>. 
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 the roman catholic conservatives are coming out in the open to line up with pat robertson and his ultra right wing christian coalition. former secretary of education william bennet, a roman catholic, stood beside the christian coalition's spokesman ralph reed at a march 3 conference in washington. the purpose of the conference was to publish results of a christian coalition poll which was designed to prove that the republican party would lose major support if it backed away from the "family values" positons of the '92 convention. conservative catholics have swung behind robertson's organization with political expertise, legal assistance and high tech communications the catholic campaign for american, designed as a catholic version of the moral majority, was founded by marlene elwell and tom wykes. ms. elwell has been with robertson since the days of his freedom council in 1985 and worked for him in his presidential bid in 1988. ms. elwell was hired by domino's pizza magnate, tom monaghan, in 1989 to manage legatus, a "nonpolitical", catholic businessmen's group. membership is limited to catholics who head corporations with a least $4 million in annual revenues. relying on a network of wealthy contacts at legatus, elwell and wykes had little trouble forming and funding the catholic campaign. the campaign's list of national committee members includes u.s. rep. robert k. dornan, phyllis schlafly of the eagle forum, the lovely pat buchanan and rev. richard j. neuhaus. also on the national committee is keith fournier, a catholic who heads pat robertson's american center for law and justice. another catholic, thomas patrick monaghan, senior counsel of robertson's aclj, is also an active supporter of the catholic campaign. the board of directors includes frank shakespeare, broadcasting exec and former u.s. ambassador to the pope, wall street executive frank lynch, former reagan official richard v. allen, bishop rene gracida of corpus christi and mary ellen bork, wife of unsuccessful supreme court nominee robert bork. in the winter 1992 issue of _campaign update_ the organization's quarterly newsletter, rocco l. martino, a philadelphia business executive wrote: "separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution." oh yes, the organization's "national ecclesisatical advisor" is catholic politician cardinal john j. o'connor of new york. jack carroll 
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 [as i recall, i first entered the fray on this matter in response to an assertion by simon clippingdale that morality was relative. oops! quite right. i got so busy that i saved frank's last post back then, intending to respond when i could, and i sort of forgot. i'll try to do it soon if anyone's still interested, and probably even if they're not. is he therefore trying to sell something? i don't think so. ] well, yes, maybe i am. i'm trying to have people buy and take on my opinions, thus causing said opinions to spread in time-honoured memetic virus mode until the world is a veritable paradise. so how about it, folks? as they say over here, you know it makes sense. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon simon clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk department of computer science tel (+44) 203 523296 university of warwick fax (+44) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al, u.k. 
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 # you have only pushed back the undefined meaning. you must now define #what "objective values" are. really? you don't know what objective value is? if i offered the people of the u.s., collectively, $1 for all of the land in america, would that sound like a good deal? well, that would depend on how much we wanted the us and how much we wanted the $1, wouldn't it? eric rescorla ekr@eitech.com would you buy used code from this man? 
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 hmmmm. define objective morality. well, depends upon who you talk to. some say it means you can't have your hair over your ears, and others say it means stryper is acceptable. _i_ would say that general principles of objective morality would be listed in one or two places. ten commandments sayings of jesus the first depends on whether you trust the bible, the second depends on both whether you think jesus is god, and whether you think we have accurate copies of the nt. gong! take a moment and look at what you just wrote. first you defined an "objective" morality and then you qualified this "objective" morality with subjective justifications. do you see the error in this? sorry, you have just disqualified yourself, but please play again. 
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 #in article <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@d012s658.uucp (frank #> objective morality is morality built from objective values. #you now pushed down the defintion of objectivity into realm of #objective values. so you need to explain that as well, as well #as the objective sub-parts, the objective atoms, quarks... firstly, science has its basis in values, not the other way round. you keep saying that. i do not think it means what you think it perhaps you should explain what you think "science has it's basis in values" means. the reason why people do science is that they value it's results. that does not mean that science has it's basis in values. any more than des stops working if i stop valuing my privacy. so you better explain what objective atoms are, and how we get them from subjective values, before we go any further. see above. eric rescorla ekr@eitech.com would you buy used code from this man? 
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 my definition of objective would be absolute, or fixed, rather than subjective, or varying and changing. lets see what the dictionary has to say: objective adj. 1. as having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept. 2. having actual existance. 3.a. uninfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice. b. based on observable phenomenon. 
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 }>}(a) out of context; }>must have missed when you said this about these other "promises of god" that we keep }>getting subjected to. could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok? }>or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy. both or neither. }so, according to you, jim, the only way to criticize one person for }taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a }response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context? did i either ask or assert that? or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again? (1) stephen said you took a quote out of context (2) you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t.r.m article (call it a) that took a quote out of context (3) but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the lack of x (a common creationist error) (4) so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a (5) you asked stephen to explain why you were wrong and they were ok, or to acknowledge that he was being a hypocrite. (6) both of the choices you give stephen assume that he condoned taking quotes out of context in a. (7) i assumed you were being logical, and that the sentence that begins "could you please explain ..." was not a nonsequitur, but was intended to follow from the sentence that preceded it. (8) therefore, i concluded that you believed that (2) implied that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a (9) but we've already seen that (2) does not imply this (10) therefore, you were incorrect to believe that (2) implied that stephen thought it was okay to take quotes out of context in a, and were making an error of a kind that is frequently made by creationists. is that better jim? it's called an argument. if you disagree with it, explain why the argument is not sound. (i admit that my assumption in (7) may have been a bit hasty.) if you agree with it, just say "yup." "yup." -- jim's e-mailed response when i pointed out, in a posted article, that one of his arguments was a straw man argument, reminiscent of a frequent creationist ploy. (3/22/93) 
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 the truth is, is that it is not some sort of magic spell. the truth is is that you do not understand it, and enjoy not understanding it. i'm curious about this statement, is it a known understanding amongst christian believers that people who don't understand the christian doctrines are enjoying this state? i come from a background with a heavy christian teaching (lutheran church), and consider myself knowledgeable with the basic understandings of christianity. at the same time i'm *not* proud of things i don't understand or know of at this point of time. ignorance is not bliss! sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i will repeat my position here. worshipping on sunday has never been a sin. as a child i attended services on saturday and sunday--at the sda church and at the pentecostal church across the street. i might even go to a baptist church next week. i worship god every day, and every christian should. even if we can prove that christians should meet on sunday (and we can't) we can never prove that violation of the sabbath is not a sin any longer. nor can we prove that violation of sunday is a sin. we cannot use the sabbath commandment for that purpose. my online bible is on a cd, but i don't own a cd-rom system for the time being, so i can't search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn't want to break existing (jewish) laws. in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day, if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i need some brief information on scientology (or applientology as frank zappa would call it) anyone have the time to send me some info on ol' l.ron and the b asics of what scientology is all about would be appreciated---p.s.i am not inte rested in any propaganda i've taken the liberty of passing your name and address to your local org (scientology office). they'll be contacting you in a few days. i also threw in a small contribution, so they'd know you're serious. :-) 
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 atoms are not objective. they aren't even real. what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. all of which is subjective. -jim halat this deserves framing. it really does. "[atoms] aren't even real." tell me then, those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now, so what are they? figments of our imaginations? the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming, but i won't bother with most evidence at the moment. * mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu * never program and drink beer at the same * * m^2 * time. it doesn't work. * 
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 kent: you say that there are about 4-10 competing rosicrucian orders existing today, most of them are spin-offs from oto and other competing organizations from the 19th century france/germany. maybe i should write an article please don't! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ about all this, i spent some time investigating these organizations and their conceptual world view systems. name just three *really* competing rosicrucian orders. i have probably spent more time than you doing the same. none of them are spin-offs from o.t.o. the opposite may be the study harder, 
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 #rick anderson replied to my letter with... #ra> in article <c5elp2.l0c@acsu.buffalo.edu>, #ra> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (robert weiss) says: #ra> # just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. you refer to # differing interpretations of "create," and say that many christians may # not agree. so what? that is really irrelevant. we do not base our faith # on how many people think one way or another, do we? the bottom line is # truth, regardless of popularity of opinions. it may be "irrelevant" to you and *your* personal beliefs (or should i say "bias"?), but it is relevant to me and many others. you're right, "the bottom line is truth," independant from you or anyone else. since you proclaim "truths" as a self-proclaimed appointee, may i ask you by what authority you do this? because "it says so in the bible?" --does the bible "say so," or is it you, or someone else, who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or "disapproval"? excuse moi, but your line of "truths" haven't moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous. of all the "preachers" of "truth" on this net, you have struck me as a self-righteous member of the wrecking crew, with no positive message to me or other latter-day saints whatsoever. btw, this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees: "ye hypocrite(s) . . . ye preach about me with your lips, but your hearts are far removed from me..." # also, i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created # and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the mormon # belief..." you can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to # have been addressed. in order to reply to the issue, you have to address # and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the # conclusion that you grant. sophistry. look who's talking: "jumping to conclusions?" you wouldn't do that yourself, right? all you address is your own convictions, regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view, because you reject such interpretations without any consideration # the bible states that lucifer was created. the bible states that jesus # is the creator of all. the contradiction that we have is that the lds # belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same. a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine. the former kgb would have loved to employ you. jesus and lucifer are not "the same," silly, and you know it. # the mormon belief is that all are children of god. literally. there is # nothing symbolic about it. this however, contradicts what the bible # says. the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god: correction: it may contradict would you think the bible says. the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they "belong to" or follow god in his footsteps. satan and his followers have rebelled against god, and are not "children (=followers/redeemed) of god," but it doesn't mean that they were not once created by god, but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of # the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the # kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked "one"; # (matthew 13:38) so? --this illustrates nicely what i just said: the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus (and have shown "works of repentance, etc.), and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb. the issue of satan's spirit-offspring (and those who followed him) has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible. you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your "right" with non- related scriptures. (...lots of nice scriptures deleted (not robert w. copyrighted) though...) #ra> > we are told that, "and this is life eternal, that they might know #ra> > thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou hast sent." #ra> > (john 17:3). life eternal is to know the only true god. yet the #ra> > doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly #ra> > different jesus, a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of #ra> > the bible. they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction: "my" jesus is indeed different than your jesus, and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible. --not your interpretation of him, i concur, but i honestly couldn't care less. #ra> > one as being true denies the other from being true. according to the #ra> > bible, eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god, and #ra> > not the construct of imagination. in this single posting of yours, i've seen more "constructs of imagination" than in all of the pro-lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group. first get your lds-facts straight before you dare preaching to us about "the only true god," whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes, but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself. i guess your grandiose self-image does not allow for other faiths, believing in the divinity of jesus christ, but in a different way or fashion than your own. not that it really matters, the mission and progress of the lds church will go on, boldly and nobly, and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing, until it has visited every continent, swept every clime, and sounded in every ear. # this is really a red herring. it doesn't address any issue raised, but # rather, it seeks to obfuscate. the fact that some groups try to read # something into the bible, doesn't change what the bible teaches. sigh. "what the bible teaches"? or: "what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co.?" i respect the former, i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus. on the contrary. and by the way, i do respect your interpretations of the bible, i even grant you being a christian (following your own image of him), as much as i am a christian (following my own image of him in my heart). # most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of # bruce mcconkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' i don't # think that it matters if mcconkie's views were canon. that is not the # issue. were mcconkie's writings indicative of mormon belief on this # subject is the real issue. the indication from rick is that they may # certainly be. the issue is, of course, that you love to use anything to either mis- represent or ridicule the lds church. the issue of "official doctrine" is obviously very important. mcconkie's views have been controversial (e.g. "the seven deadly heresies" has made me a heretic! ;-) at best, or erroneous at worst ("blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation"). i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church, but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations (his book "mormon doctrine" is oftentimes referred to as "mcconkie's bible" in mormon circles) on mormon doctrine. i rather look to official (doctrinal) sources, and... to hugh nibley's books! (the last comment is an lds-insider reference.) summarizing: mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have, but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine, some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation. but having said this, i find mcconkie (even in his most biased and speculative moments) far more thought-provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen. i'm somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting... robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities 
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 how does one falsify any origin theory? for example, are a forever existing universe or abiogenesis strictly falsifiable? the same way that any theory is proven false. you examine the predicitions that the theory makes, and try to observe them. if you don't, or if you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn't happen, then you have some evidence against the theory. if the theory can't be modified to incorporate the new observations, then you say that it is false. for example, people used to believe that the earth had been created 10,000 years ago. but, as evidence showed that predictions from this theory were not true, it was abandoned. -russ paul-jones russpj@microsoft.com 
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 (jon livesey): if there is a western ethic against infanticide, why are so many children dying all over the world? the majority of the world isn't "western". superficially a good answer, but it isn't that simple. an awful lot of the starvation and poverty in the world is directly caused by the economic policies of the western countries, as well as by the diet of the typical westerner. for instance, some third-world countries with terrible malnutrition problems export all the soya they can produce -- so that it can be fed to cattle in the us, to make tender juicy steaks and burgers. they have to do this to get money to pay the interest on the crippling bank loans we encouraged them to take out. fund-raising for ethiopia is a truly bizarre idea; instead, we ought to stop bleeding them for every penny they've got. perhaps it's more accurate to say that there's a western ethic against western infanticide. all the evidence suggests that so long as the children are dying in the third world, we couldn't give a shit. and that goes for the supposed "pro-life" movement, too. they could save far more lives by fighting against third world debt than they will by fighting against abortion. hell, if they're only interested in fetuses, they could save more of those by fighting for human rights in china. and besides, suzanne's answer implies that non-western countries lack this ethic against infanticide. apart from china, with its policy of mandatory forced abortion in tibet, i don't believe this to be the case. 
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 #and this "objective morality" is........? and here, children, we have a person playing the "objective morality doesn't exist, show me one" game. you can play this with just about anything: and this "objective medicine" is.....? and this "objective physics" is.....? and this "objective reality" is.....? there's no objective medicine; some people get marvellous results from alternative therapy, others only respond to traditional medicine. there's no objective physics; einstein and bohr have told us that. there's no objective reality. lsd should be sufficient to prove that. one wonders just what people who ask such questions understand by the term "objective", if anything. i consider it to be a useful fiction; an abstract ideal we can strive towards. like an ideal gas or a light inextensible string, it doesn't actually exist; but we can talk about things as if they were like it, and not be too far wrong. 
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 ifone simply says "god did it", then that is not falsifiable. unless god admits that he didn't do it.... " i'd cheat on hillary too." john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling "traditional family values." 
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 #rick anderson replied to my letter with... #ra> in article <c5elp2.l0c@acsu.buffalo.edu>, #ra> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (robert weiss) says: #ra> # just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. you refer to # differing interpretations of "create," and say that many christians may # not agree. so what? that is really irrelevant. we do not base our faith # on how many people think one way or another, do we? the bottom line is # truth, regardless of popularity of opinions. it may be "irrelevant" to you and *your* personal beliefs (or should i say "bias"?), but it is relevant to me and many others. you're right, "the bottom line is truth," independant from you or anyone else. since you proclaim "truths" as a self-proclaimed appointee, may i ask you by what authority you do this? because "it says so in the bible?" --does the bible "say so," or is it you, or someone else, who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or "disapproval"? excuse moi, but your line of "truths" haven't moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous. of all the "preachers" of "truth" on this net, you have struck me as a self-righteous member of the wrecking crew, with no positive message to me or any other latter-day saint... btw, this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees: "ye hypocrite(s) . . . ye preach about me with your lips, but your hearts are far removed from me..." # also, i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created # and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the mormon # belief..." you can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to # have been addressed. in order to reply to the issue, you have to address # and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the # conclusion that you grant. sophistry. look who's talking: "jumping to conclusions?" you wouldn't do that yourself, right? all you address is your own convictions, regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view, because you reject such interpretations without any consideration # the bible states that lucifer was created. the bible states that jesus # is the creator of all. the contradiction that we have is that the lds # belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same. a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine. the former kgb would have loved to employ you. jesus and lucifer are not "the same," silly, and you know it. # the mormon belief is that all are children of god. literally. there is # nothing symbolic about it. this however, contradicts what the bible # says. the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god: correction: it may contradict would you think the bible says. the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they "belong to" or follow god in his footsteps. satan and his followers have rebelled against god, and are not "children (=followers/redeemed) of god," but it doesn't mean that they were not once created by god, but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of # the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the # kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked "one"; # (matthew 13:38) so? --this illustrates nicely what i just said: the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus (and have shown "works of repentance, etc.), and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb. the issue of satan's spirit-origin (and of those who followed him) has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible. you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your "right" with non- related scriptures. (...lots of nice scriptures deleted (not robert w. copyrighted) though...) #ra> > we are told that, "and this is life eternal, that they might know #ra> > thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou hast sent." #ra> > (john 17:3). life eternal is to know the only true god. yet the #ra> > doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly #ra> > different jesus, a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of #ra> > the bible. they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction: "my" jesus is indeed different than your jesus, and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible. --not your interpretation of him, i concur, but i honestly couldn't care less. #ra> > one as being true denies the other from being true. according to the #ra> > bible, eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god, and #ra> > not the construct of imagination. in this single posting of yours, i've seen more "constructs of imagination" than in all of the pro-lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group. first get your lds-facts straight before you dare preaching to us about "the only true god," whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes, but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself. i guess your grandiose self-image does not allow for other faiths, believing in the divinity of jesus christ, but in a different way or fashion than your own. not that it really matters, the mission and progress of the lds church will go on, boldly and nobly, and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing, until it has visited every continent, swept every clime, and sounded in every ear. # this is really a red herring. it doesn't address any issue raised, but # rather, it seeks to obfuscate. the fact that some groups try to read # something into the bible, doesn't change what the bible teaches. sigh. "what the bible teaches"? or: "what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co.?" i respect the former, i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus. on the contrary. and by the way, i do respect your interpretations of the bible, i even grant you being a christian (following your own image of him), as much as i am a christian (following my own image of him in my heart). # most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of # bruce mcconkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' i don't # think that it matters if mcconkie's views were canon. that is not the # issue. were mcconkie's writings indicative of mormon belief on this # subject is the real issue. the indication from rick is that they may # certainly be. the issue is, of course, that you love to use anything to either mis- represent or ridicule the lds church. the issue of "official doctrine" is obviously very important. mcconkie's views have been controversial (e.g. "the seven deadly heresies" has made me a heretic! ;-) at best, or erroneous at worst ("blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation"). i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church, but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations (his book "mormon doctrine" is oftentimes referred to as "mcconkie's bible" in mormon circles) on mormon doctrine. i rather look to official (doctrinal) sources, and... to hugh nibley's books! (the last comment is an lds-insider reference.) summarizing: mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have, but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine, some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation. but having said this, i find mcconkie (even in his most biased and speculative moments) far more thought-provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen. i'm somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting... robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities 
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 okay, i'll bite. i should probably leave this alone, but what the heck... rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms, and props used by the early nazis in their rallies and such. the name is roehm, not rhoemer. and hitler does claim that he came up with the swastika business. but didn't he credit the actual flag design to a party member - some dentist or other? i believe he gives such credit in mein kampf. he was killed in an early nazi purge. he and many of his associates were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies. i have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this common assertion recently. postings to such groups as soc.history and soc.culture.german has not uncovered any net.experts who could provide well, i'm no expert, but all of the histories of nazi germany assert this. they make reference to several scandals that occurred long before "the night of the long knives". the impression that i got was that homosexuality in portions of the sa was common knowledge. also, a book (by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment) called "homosexuals in history" asserts that roehm and heines were homosexuals, as well as others in roehm's sa circle. [rest deleted. can anybody out in a.p.h help out?] find out about "the night of the brown shirts". =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= 
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 ... other good stuff deleted ... you can worship every day of the week. the issue is not whether christians are at fault for going to church on sunday or for not going to church on saturday. attending a church service does not mean you have recognized the holiness of that day (my apologies to paul hudson). the question is "on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians?" please note that the commandment does not command you to go to church, only to keep it holy unto the lord by refraining from doing on it what only serves to give you pleasure and satisfaction. when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question? in paraphrase: on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets (7 major and 12 minor) and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew 5:14-19? what is the source of this pseudo-doctrine? who is the pseudo-teacher? who is the great deceiver? 
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 1) we're not just talking about proteins. in fact, we shouldn't be talking about proteins at all, since (if i have to say this again i'm goint to be really upset) *nobody*claims*that*proteins*appeared*de* *novo* the proteins did not form randomly. before i repond to 2.), andy, please clarify 1.). you state that proteins did not form randomly. that seems to be my point. well, i am not andy, but if you had familiarized yourself with some of the current theories/hypotheses about abiogenesis before posting :-), you would be aware of the fact that none of them claims that proteins were assembled randomly from amino acids. it is current thinking that rna- based replicators came before proteinaceous enzymes, and that proteins were assembled by some kind of primitive translation machinery. now respond to 2. :-) --cornelius. /* cornelius krasel, department of physiological chemistry, u tuebingen */ /* email: krasel@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de */ /* "people are dna's way of making more dna." (r. dawkins / anonymous) */ 
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 god can be seen: "and i will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." wot? god's a mooner? such lunacy! (gee, maybe there's something in this christianity thing after all - maybe god is john belushi from "animal house") the supernatural one wants to have a personal relationship with you. jhvh-1, come quick! 
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 ignorance is not bliss! ignorance is strength! help spread the truth of ignorance! 
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 i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media. when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east, it is always played up as an islamic terrorist. however, when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations, its not a christian terrorist, its just a terrorist. i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press, that islam is somehow tied to violence. often times you hear things like "they just don't value human life like we do..." and so on. i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image, or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype. i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e-mail, and i'm not interested in hearing about how right the press is. -scott vann buddha@iastate.edu 
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 ->i addressed most of the key issues in this very long (284 lines) post ->by dean kaflowitz in two posts yesterday. the first was made into the ->title post of a new thread, "is dean kaflowitz terminally irony-impaired?" ->and the second, more serious one appeared along the thread ->"a chaney post, and a challenge, reissued and revised" if you're so insecure about people reading your posts that you feel the need to write new posts announcing what you wrote in old, posts, why bother? accept it phoney, you're a laughingstock. 
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 name just three *really* competing rosicrucian orders. i have probably spent more time than you doing the same. none of them are spin-offs from o.t.o. the opposite may be the can we assume from this statement that you are >unequivocally< saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto? .. and that in fact, oto may well be a spin off of amorc?? i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this study harder, study smarter, not harder! :-) <---|---> more. more of everything. more of everything for everybody. <-|-> "real total war has become information war, it is being fought now..." <---|---> !max! delysid - alamut@netcom.com - alamutbbs 415.431.7541 1:125/51 
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 the observation that the tree of life would rotate clockwise in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the southern probably doesn't give enough consideration to the feebleness of the coriolis force compared to, say, the phototropism of vegetation. a much more likely explanation is the classic one: that the clockwise swastika is the sun-wheel, because the sun progresses across the sky that way. (although that's not the historical way it happened; clocks were first made as little imitation images of the sun moving thru the heavens. so it's more valid to talk of the clock going sunwise, but do the engineers listen to me? of course not.) anyway, there is still much uncertainty about whether the anti-swastika goes counter-sunwise because that represents evil, or because it is the sun's twin-opposite, the moonwheel. the use of anti-sun to represent evil may be because humans are so strongly visually-oriented, but i'm not going to try to settle that one just now. -- diccon frankborn (dickeney@access.digex.com) 
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 the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots, one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged. since the accusers thereafter controlled the records, anything bearing on the subject -- true or not -- has to be considered tainted evidence. the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd, the sa -- sturmabteilung, "storm troopers" -- left the world a better place when they departed, but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses. -- diccon frankborn 
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 do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. [honestly.] the word of sin is restriction. [would i kid you?] does one man's words encompass the majestic vision of thousands of individuals? quoting a man is not the same as quoting the order. taken out of context, words can be interpreted much differently than had one applied them within the confines of their original expression. i think this is the case regarding hymenaeus beta, frater superior of the order to which i belong. when he included that bit from merlinus x' he did us all a service. he showed us the extremes to which order members have been known to go in their fervor. i have little knowledge regarding reuss' background, but surely he was an unusual man, and he was an important force in the order for many years. yet as people change so do orders change, and while we look back so carefully at the dirty laundry of o.t.o. remember that this is only the surface skim and that many perspectives are now encompassed which extend beyond any one individual. i hope to show that there was and is much room for a difference of opinion within the order itself, perhaps by testing the limits myself. let us examine this issue a bit more closely.... "in 1895, karl kellner (1850-1905), a wealthy austrian industrialist and paper chemist, as well as a high-grade mason, founded the ordo templi orientis. kellner had traveled widely in the east, where he met three adepts who instructed him specific magical practices. kellner's efforts to develop the order were later assisted by franz hartmann, heinrich klein and theodore reuss, who had worked together prior to joining the o.t.o. the order was first proclaimed in 1902 in reuss's masonic publication, 'oriflamme'. on kellner's death, reuss succeeded him as outer head [o.h.o.]. the 'jubilee' edition of the 'oriflamme', published in 1912, announced that the order taught secret of sexual magic. "theodore reuss was an interesting character. born june 28, 1855 in augsburg, he entered masonry in 1876. he was a singer, journalist and possibly a spy for the prussian political police, infiltrating the socialist league founded by karl marx's daughter and her husband. reuss was later associated with william wynn westcott, a leader of the golden dawn, who later introduced him to john yarker. yarker chartered reuss to found the rites of memphis and mizraim in germany. after several attempts to concretize various masonic rites, reuss settled on the development of the o.t.o. "the order experienced reasonably steady growth under reuss' leadership. for example, he chartered papus in france, rudolph steiner in berlin and h. spencer lewis in the usa. in 1912, the historic meeting between reuss and crowley occurred. crowley wrote that reuss came to him and accused him of revealing order secrets. when crowley looked at it afresh, the initiated interpretation of sexual magick unfolded itself to him for the first time. reuss appointed crowley as supreme and holy king of all the english speaking world, and it was this authorization that he invoked when publishing the material of the equinox. "reuss resigned as outer head of the order in 1922 after suffering a stroke and named crowley his successor. all was well until 1925 when _the book of the law_ was translated into german. there was a break in the continuity of the order. manyk members split with the new o.h.o. over the book, which crowley was actively promulgating through the order. he had earlier revise dthe order rituals at reuss's request, deeply infusing the doctrines of the new aeon revelation." _an introduction to the history of the o.t.o._, by ad veritatem ix' within _equinox iii:10_, edited by hymenaeus beta, frater superior, rex summus sanctissimus, caliph of the united states of america, published by samuel weiser, 1990. there are many possible reasons that our frater superior included this material in _equinox iii:10_. and this is the real point, is it not? why did he wish to publish such things about the history of his own organization? does he represent a dogmatic threat to the principle of thelema? or is he exercising his true will and putting forth very complex pictures with no easy answers? a picture which leaves room for very many interpretations. it is quite easy for me to see, for example, that all of o.t.o. derived out of the dribble of faltering masonry, purchased by clever hucksters with an ounce of courage and some writing ability to aid them. and i can take that all the way down to our present caliph, whose feeble support of the 'law of thelema' is laughable at best. would i be thrown out of the order for speaking in this way? will i? i think not. why? because my frater will see it as a perspective, an interjection i am using as an example. my illustration shows that we may express things in the context of a larger work and the true significance of this may be quite difficult to apprehend at first. so it may be with oto and merlinus x'. please look o.t.o. more carefully. i do not support reuss's words myself, as i am not qualified to assess them, and i am critical of their pomposity. if i who am a member of the order take such a stand and am allowed to continue doing so, then what can this say about the health of the order? does it mean that the order has 'gone soft' and abandoned its moral principles? or does it mean that it is strong in its ability to let the will of universal kinship arise on its own, not shackled by some dogmatic requirement? how shall we resolve these two possibilities? i find a high calibre of individual associated with ordo templi orientis. they are often quite intelligent and sometimes very well versed in arcane or usual information. they are quite often artists and geniuses. having met some 20 longstanding members in the sf bay area (many who are or were very heavily involved with the order), i can vouch for the integrity of the organization as it stands. i have sometimes questioned the policy of hymenaeus beta. in these moments i followed my intuition, and i've found little to stop me from requesting a second initiation from a different o.t.o. body. i'm happily participating in social groups (feasts or initiations) and have come to know the gnostic mass well enough for my tastes. this doesn't make me an authority on order politics and explanations, however. i can only hypothesize and relay to you what i understand based on my limited contact with other members. i urge you not to take the words of merlinus x too far. there are many ways to interpret words, and many people who have become involved with the order feel very strongly about the sanctity of personal freedom and the preservation of individual vision. i welcome other comment on this issue and will be writing more in response to other posts in this thread. invoke me under my stars. love is the law, love under will. i am i! frater (i) nigris (dclxvi) cccxxxiii 
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 |> [earlier dialogue deleted] |> >|> perhaps you should read it and stop advancing the bible as evidence relating |> >|> to questions of science. |> [it = _did jesus exist?_ by g. a. wells] |> > there is a great fallacy in your statement. the question of origins is |> > based on more than science alone. |> nope, no fallacy. yep, science is best in determining how; religions handle |> why and who. the problem is that most scientists exclude the possibility of the supernatural in the question of origins. is this is a fair premise? not entirely. its not a premise, its a conclusion. second, that scientists (for the most part) exlude the possibility is not a problem, its a necessity. scientists are empircists, not theologians. i utterly reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of so do scientists, and long before you did. clearly you have a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of science. |> > if you met a man who could walk on |> > water, raise people from the dead, claimed to be the son of god, and |> > then referred to the inviolability of the scriptures, this would affect |> > your belief in the origin of man. (i can expand on this.) |> nope, wouldn't affect my knowledge (not belief) of origins of anatomically |> modern humans. if that man could show me something better, i'd change, even if |> it was the biblical story in exact detail. but then i would ask, "why in the |> world did your father endow us with intellect and reason, and then proceed to |> fool us. i mean, the bible says nothing about the human-like creatures that we |> know exist. some of these so-called human-like creatures were apes. some were humans. some were fancifully reconstructed from fragments. absolutely and utterly false (except for some were amhs). lucy (australopithecus afarensis, ca. 3 to 3.25 mya) is 40% complete, and about 80% taking into consideration bilateral symmetry. lucy walked upright and bipedally, just like humans, and the two share a remarkably similar dental pattern. her cranial morphology is unlike humans or modern apes. there are hundreds of other specimens of this and other species, of which only some are *partially* reconstructed. they exist bill. you can touch them, feel them, hold them. but forget hominids. the earth, the universe, the cultural record all look and test out as ancient indeed. they are not reconstructions. has god has tricked us here too? it won't go away, bill. |> i doubt any of us will meet a man like this. but, bill, if your version of all |> this is absolutely correct, i'm still no worried about my salvation. i'll |> probaby make it (i don't steal, murder, covet, etc, and i like to help other |> people). all i did was use the reason and intellect your god provided. |> he or she - benevolent and loving - will understand my dilemma, don't you |> think? good deeds do not justify a person in god's sight. an atonement (jesus) is needed to atone for sin. so *you* and other fundamentalists say. what about the billions who don't say so? beware of people who say they have the truth, bill, and reconsider each time you think you do. |> > science and |> > the bible are not in contradiction. god can supercede the scientific |> > "laws" as man understands them. creation is a good example. god has the |> > power to create something out of nothing, order out of chaos. |> haven't been on t.o. long, but i have a feeling, bill, that the veterans will |> agree with you here. no contradiciton, and god *can* do anything at will. so, |> what's the beef? (or more properly, "where's") my point: god is the creator. look's like we agree. that was not your point, bill. your point above was god *has* the power .... scientists generally agree with that. that's a far cry from saying god did. please attempt to understand your own posts. |> > if the title of the book you mentioned has anything to do with the |> > substance of the book, it must be a real laugher. of course jesus existed, |> > and there are volumes of evidence to back it up. i can give many if you |> > are interested. |> its not a laugher, bill. its a scholarly book that many happen to disagree |> with. i am definitely (and seriously) interested in confirmation. i know of |> the bible, inferences therefrom (e.g., prophecies), apocrypha, the koran and |> others. what i am interested is independent evidence. do you have any? i |> know of josephus, but this is almost certainly an insertion. also i know of a |> few roman documents (e.g., pliny), but these deal only with early christians. |> do you have any independent evidence? i am most interested. please email or |> post. thanks, and best regards. i'll send you some info via e-mail. regards, bill. i have your info, and i have replied - several days ago. hope you have it. somehow your post above appeared at my server only today. rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota 
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 sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) writes... sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) quotes ml... remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile alike. jews won't agree with you, malcolm. which jews ks? most religious jews with the exception of the messianic ones and atheists/agnostics, malcolm. ks, i see you're wanting malcolm's response. allow me one last inter- jection then please: distinguishing among the religious jews, you've excepted the messianic for obvious reasons. specifically, are you saying it's these religious jews, who trace their lineage back to abraham by blood and orthodoxy, rather than by faith, who won't agree? orthodox jews? as to the a/a (if i understand your direction), the issue remains unproven i suspect, considering how atheists and agnostics so often look to reason. atheist, it is reasonable to conclude will not agree. for agnostics, a poll seems in order. who knows? myself, i'm not so sure the atheists can be counted out. for the orthodox, i wonder how many would follow moses, or abraham, or david in accepting god's word? is the particular covenant to which one adheres, more important than god promisimg? i reckon for many it depends on the ongoing dialogue. under these considerations, you might understand why i think it's premature to assert who will and won't agree. -- j -- | stephen 
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 not, of course, the greatest salesman in the world. that was jesus, wasn't it? no, j.r. "bob" dobbs. definitely, j.r. "bob" dobbs, numero uno, top dog, not one can touch, not one can knock bob out of the box. bob kills me mon! everyday! but close el segundo (el subliminal) is the infamous paul (birthname saul) the evangeline who became famous as a result of his numerous trampoline act tours of the eastern mediterranean. jesus on the other hand was duped, a pawn of the con, fell pray to the holywood paradox (ain't nothing but a sign in the hills!). like many afro-asians, jesus found the earth all too pink! and to think that after his death, the con changed him into a tall blond holywood sun god! and i do mean that in the kindest way possums! now jesus does gigs with hendrix, joplin, morrison, lennon, marley, tosh, etc. mostly ska beat jah-know! 
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 ignorance is not bliss! ignorance is strength! help spread the truth of ignorance! huh, if ignorance is strength, then i won't distribute this piece of information if i want to follow your advice (contradiction above). sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 #like i said before, des works whether i value my privacy or #not. o.k., which des? the abstract function des? that stops working in any important sense if no-one cares for the importance of truth, mathematics, meaning, information, etc. a des chip or des s/w? that stops working in any important sense if no-one values science, objective reality, etc. des does not work in a value vacuum. nothing else does, either. this is just truth by blatant assertion. your "in any important sense" seem to be just weasel words. imagine that i have a box which accepts 16 bytes and uses the first 8 to ecb the second 8. it still does a perfect job of desing, whether or not any input is being made at the time--whether or not anyone values mathematics.. if no-one looks at the results, or acknowledges their correctness, in what meaningful sense can the chip be said to "work"?? does flibozity exist? by "flibozity", i mean a particular, extremely complex configuration of physical phenomena, which no-one, absolutely no-one cares about in the slightest. does it exist, eric? getting back to the question of whether the des chip "works", doesn't "work" mean something like "achieving the desired/expected effect"? note the way intentionality subtly underlies that definition. even if we take the definition as "expected", instead of "desired", can you deny that conformance to expectations is itself a value of sorts, namely the scientific values of accuracy-of-prediction and reproducibility-of-results? the phenomenologist husserl, for one, considered intentionality to be the primary ontological "stuff" from which all other ontology was built -- perceptions, consciousness, thoughts, etc. frank is by no means alone in seeing intentionality (or "values", as he puts it) underlying all human experience, even the so-called "objective" experiences, such as measurements of the natural world, or the output of your des chip. 
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 |> #do you mean it's moral to use force on someone who advocates |> #the use of force? |> with a few provisos, yes. minimum force, for a start. and, it |> depends on what is being forced (on either side). |> #or do you mean that sometimes we have to use force on such |> #people out of necessity or self-defence, while recognizing |> #that our own actions in doing so are not moral? |> my opinion is that our actions would be moral, and it would be |> immoral not to act if action would be both necessary and effective. |> again, there many caveats and provisios. |> note, my usage of "my opinion" is an admission that i don't have a lock |> on morals, not that there is no truth about morality to have a lock on. you're admitting a lot more than that. you are admitting that your morals are situational. you are admitting that the actions of other people and the situation you are in help to determine how you judge the moral significance of one of your own actions. if you employ x degree of force, that's not moral, but if you employ x degree of force, but previously someone else has employed y degree of force, and the situation is thus-and-so, that *is* moral. this is quite different from saying "employing force on other people is immoral, period. unfortunately, from time to time we are obliged to do this immoral thing for reasons of self-preservation, and so we have to bear the moral consequences of that. for what it's worth - and yes, i know you claim to be an agnostic - it's this ability to re-label things from "immoral" to "moral" that i find one of the *least* attractive qualities of the religious 
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 |> #|> # you have only pushed back the undefined meaning. you must now define |> #|> #what "objective values" are. |> #|> really? you don't know what objective value is? if i offered the people |> #|> of the u.s., collectively, $1 for all of the land in america, would that |> #|> sound like a good deal? |> #you mean that if you can find a ridiculous price, the rest of |> #us are supposed to conclude that an objectively correct price |> #exists? |> i said nothing about the price. i asked if the deal was good. it isn't. so it was a complete non-sequitur, is that it? how does coming up with a derisory deal tell us anything about the existence of "objective" values. you're asking us to accept that the deal you offered would be turned down, and we believe that, not because we appeal to objective values but becasue we know, or think we know, something about people. all the people we know exhibit *subjective* values that would lead them to reject a deal of $1 for all of the land in america. great. now, so what? 
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 i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media. when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east, it is always played up as an islamic terrorist. however, when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations, its not a christian terrorist, its just a terrorist. i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press, that islam is somehow tied to violence. often times you hear things like "they just don't value human life like we do..." and so on. i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image, or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype. i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e-mail, and i'm not interested in hearing about how right the press is. very easily. show them pictures of crime scenes perpetrated by christian terrorists in this country, if that doesn't convince them have them talk to the victims of christian terrorism. a brutal act of terrorism inspired by christian propoganda was recently commited on your very campus. its very simple religious extremists of all religions put no value on human life. christian and islamic fundamentalists put advancing there religion above all else, even if doing so violates the religion itself. p.s. i'm not saying all christians are terrorists, i'm using "christian terrorist" in the same way the media uses islamic terrorist. ------ join the pythagorean reform church! . \ / repent of your evil irrational numbers . . \ / and bean eating ways. accept 10 into your heart! . . . \/ call the pythagorean reform church bbs at 508-793-9568 . . . . 
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 kent: with all due respect, how can i take you seriously, when you have the names wrong in the 1st place? e.g.: the san jose rc (ordo rosae crucis) there is no such thing. the correct name is ancient & mystical order rosae crucis, abbreviated amorc. ...and the rocicrusian order created by max heindel. there is no such thing either. it's the rosicrucian fellowship. and they clearly state that they do not pretend to descend from the order of the fama fraternitatis. in addition there are many splinter groups all around europe that all claim some connection with the original group supposedly founded in the middle ages. the lectorium? and who else? some freemason groups also have rosicrucian-like separate groups, even if they are far from the ideologies the rc groups have somehow in common. these are not rosicrucian "orders". they are masonic study groups, none of which *claims* to be descendant of the original order. we might compete about how much time we have spent with this :-). let me start, i was part of the orc for about 8 years. what is orc? if you mean amorc, you didn't even learn the correct name?! 
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 name just three *really* competing rosicrucian orders. i have probably spent more time than you doing the same. none of them are spin-offs from o.t.o. the opposite may be the can we assume from this statement that you are >unequivocally< saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto? .. and that in fact, oto may well be a spin off of amorc?? i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this well, there is a fair amount of evidence floating around that indicates that oto has been around since at least the late 1800s, long before crowley ever heard of it, how long has amorc been around? (yes, i know that they claim to have existed as an organization clear into prehistory, but i doubt that they have any organizational paperwork as a non-profit that can be carbon-dated to 20,000 bc) a.lizard a.lizard internet addresses: alizard%tweekco%boo@pacbell.com (preferred) pacbell.com!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above) alizard@gentoo.com (backup) pgp2.2 public key available on request 
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 in a previous article, alamut@netcom.com (max delysid y!)) says: can we assume from this statement that you are >unequivocally< saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto? absolutely. lewis didn't care for the 1921 o.t.o. charter from reuss. he had in mind something completely diferent. crowley and lewis were very different persons, as you probably know. .. and that in fact, oto may well be a spin off of amorc?? no. my overstatement, sorry :-) study harder, study smarter, not harder! :-) i always do. 
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 the following is an introduction as to who is muhammad saw as will be covered with this treatise. muhammad peace and blessings of allah be upon him (saw) is the last prophet of islam. he is the prophet who is revealed the last holy scripture, qur'an, by allah swa (all praise be to him) through the arch angel gabriel. he is the seal of all prophets till the day of judgement as stated in the qur'an by allah swa (all praise be to him). muhammad saw lived between 571-632 ac. all other prophethoods claimed after muhammad saw, is a treason against islam, against qur'an, against the message of allah swa. muhammad saw is from the seed of ishmael, another messenger of allah and son of abraham also a messenger of allah. he is the messenger that previous holy scriptures foretold his coming. the above mentioned verse from the qur'an is from chapter 33, verse 40 whose rough translation is as follows: muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the messenger of allah, and the seal of the prophets, and allah has full knowledge of all things. commentary on the above verse: when a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition. the holy prophet muhammad saw closed the long line of messengers. allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no prophet after muhammad saw. the later ages will want thinkers, and revivers, not prophets. this is not an arbitrary matter. it is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, "for allah has full knowledge of all things." droplet vol 1, no 11, part 2 a d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur'an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi, the risale-i noor vol 1, no 11, part 2 nineteenth letter mu'jizat-i ahmediye risalesi (a treatise on the miracles of muhammed saw) (continued from droplet vol 1, no 11, part 1) second sign: the noble messenger (saw) declared his prophethood, and presented to humanity a decree as the glorious qur'an and manifest miracles which number, according to the scholars, one thousand. the occurrence of those miracles in their entirety is as certain as the fact that he declared himself prophet. in fact, as a shown by the words of the most obstinate unbelievers quoted in various places of the wise our'an, even they could not deny the occurrence of his miracles, but only called them -hasha wa kella!-(allah forbids) sorcery, in order to satisfy themselves, or to deceive their followers. the miracles of muhammad (saw) have the certainty of confirmation by consensus of ulema (scholars of islam) to the hundreth degree. the miracle is the conformation by the creator of the universe of his declaration of prophethood; it has the effect of the words,'you have indeed spoken the truth !' suppose that you said in the assembly of a ruler, while being observed by him, 'the true ruler has appointed me to such and such position. 'at a time when you were asked to prove your claim, the word 'yes' uttered by the ruler would sufficiently support you. or, if the ruler changed his usual practice and attitude at your request, this would confirm your claim even more soundly and more definitely than would the word 'yes.' in the same way, allah's most noble messenger claimed: 'i am the envoy of the creator of this universe. my proof is that he will change his unbroken order at my request and my prayer. now look at my fingers: he makes them run like a fountain with five spigots. look at the moon: by a gesture of my finger, he splits it in two. look at that tree: to affirm me, and to bear witness to me, it moves and comes near to me. look at this food: although it is barely enough for two or three men, it satisfies two or three hundred. 'further he shows hundreds of similar miracles. however, the evidences of the veracity of this high being and the proofs of his prophethood are not restricted to his miracles. all his deeds and acts, his words and behavior, his moral conduct and manners, his character and appearance prove to the attentive his truthfulness and seriousness. indeed, many people such as abdullah b. salam, the famous scholar of the children of israel, came to belief merely by seeing him, and said, 'no lie can hide in this face, nor can any fraud be found in it!' although many of the researchers have concluded that the proofs of the prophethood of muhammad and his miracles number about one thousand, there are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of proofs of his prophethood. and hundreds of thousands of truth-seeking men (muhakkikiin) with varying opinions have affirmed his prophethood in an equal number of the wise our'an alone demonstrates thousands of the proofs of his prophethood, in addition to its own forty aspects of miraculousness. since prophethood is as a phenomenon of humanity, and hundreds of thousands of individuals who claimed prophethood and performed miracles have lived and passed away; then, the prophethood of muhammad (saw) is of a certanity superior to that of the prophethood of all the others. for whatever evidences, qualities and attributes became the means of the prophethood and messengership of all the messengers such as jesus (as) and moses (as), they are all owned in a more perfect and comprehensive fashion by muhammad (saw). and since the causes and means of prophetic authority exist more perfectly in the person of muhammad (saw), this authority is to be found in him with more certanity than all the other prophets. to be continued allah willing. irfan alan, a servant of islam. 
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 [followups set out of talk.abortion...] am i reading this thread wrong or is this just another bemoaning of the fact that christianity has a code of objective morality? please define this "objective morality". while you're at it, please state the theory of creationism. still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro-lifer, i see. slimy tactic. well, when you crosspost to talk.origins, what do you expect? | michael agney | just because you're paranoid | | | doesn't mean they're not out | | | to get you. | | magney@cco.caltech.edu | | 
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 in a previous article, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (b.a. davis-howe) says: on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are, let me point out the golden dawn is only the *outer* order of that tradition. the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis. just wondering, do you mean the "lectorium rosicrucianum"? warning: there is no point in arguing who's "legit" and who's not. *which* golden dawn are you talking about? no, i don't mean the lr, whatever that is. as for which gd, i'm using _the complete golden dawn system of magic_ as my source, so (unless regardie is lying) i'm pulling the name out the the original order's rituals. the multiple modern groups are part of why i through in the comment about all the "spin-offs". just for the sake of argument, (reflecting no affiliation) i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown, penn., as a member of the religious society of friends (my membership is in the urbana-champaign (il) friends meeting) i find that amusingly ironic. :) any takers? :-) not me--i don't want to belong to *anything* which runs around claiming to be the true whatever. i find that disgusting. :( enjoy the journey! --br'anarthur queer, peculiar, and wyrd! :-) closed minds don't want to know. --jjobermark 
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 question: is there any effective difference between: "objective values exist, and there is disagreement over what they are" "values are subjective?" i don't see any. the first means that some aspect of reality contains objective values. the second means that values are a reference to some preference of the individual. in the first case, it is possible that some future discovery might invalidate certain views re what objective values are. ron house. usq (house@helios.usq.edu.au) toowoomba, australia. 
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 the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots, one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged. stop! hold it! you have a few problems here. official history says that the first accusations of homosexuality in the sa came from outside of the nazi party, long before the nazis ever came to power. so this objection is a red herring, even if established history is wrong on this point. moreover, none of the histories i've read ever made mention of hitler or anyone else ever using homosexuality as a pretext for purging roehm. a point i saw reiterated was that hitler and the party covered up these accusations. if you are going to accuse official history of being a fabrication, you should at least get your facts right. the pretext for purging roehm was that he was planning to use the sa in a coup against hitler. nowhere is there mention of using allegations of homosexuality as a pretext for the purge, nor as a justification afterwards (it is possible that the histories i've read have not mentioned this, but i doubt it - would it be in hitler's best interest to admit to the world that his former right hand man was a homosexual?). anyway, as i said before, it is always possible that i have missed references to the nazis making use of charges of homosexuality against the sa after the night of the long knives - but this does not prove that they were false. even the nazis could tell the truth when it was to their advantage. in any case, this does not deal with accusations of homosexuality in the sa during the 1920's. since the accusers thereafter controlled the records, anything bearing on the subject -- true or not -- has to be considered tainted evidence. ah, yes. i forgot this was being posted to alt.conspiracy. i can smell the paranoia from here. since the nazis never officially charged roehm with homosexuality (at least, not according to what i've read), i'd like to know what tainted "evidence" you are talking about. since the accusations were made by persons outside of the nazi party, long before it came to power, and those accusations were common knowledge to journalists and others in germany in the 1920's and 30's, just how would it be possible for the nazis to go back in time and plant "tainted" evidence? how exactly does one doctor newspapers which were circulated around the world, without the discrepancies being obvious? what actual incidences of nazi doctoring evidence on this matter do you know about? and what about the testimony of people who were involved in these matters, some of whom were not nazis? and what is the point of making a false accusation of homosexuality if you do not publicize it? since the point here seems to be to discredit established history, then the burden of proof falls on the revisionist. the revisionists had better do their homework before making accusations. otherwise they simply look like conspiracy nuts. the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd, the sa -- sturmabteilung, "storm troopers" -- left the world a better place when they departed, this is just about the *only* thing we agree on. i suspect that the notion that there might have been bad people - roehm and his sa buddies - who were homosexuals must disturb some people. the feeling seems to be that if a nasty individual is accused of homosexuality, that this must be an attempt to bash homosexuals. this fear - often justified - is what lies behind this distrust of official history, or so it seems to me. but this is not a good justification for trashing accepted accounts of this subject. if you really think that historians are so incompetent, why don't you write them and ask where they got their sources on this subject, if you can't tell from their footnotes? i'm a graduate student in history. writing to professors and tracking down sources is old hat. but my time is limited and this is not my specialty - and neither you nor anyone else have said anything that would cast one shred of doubt on existing evidence. i'm not going to waste my time trying to debunk someone's paranoia. do the research yourself. but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses. -- diccon frankborn given that you already consider all evidence "tainted", what on earth would constitute concrete particulars? and since when have concrete particulars been considered "shrewd guesses"? i suggest that those who do not trust popular historians (irving et al) - historians writing for a popular audience do not, as a rule, provide copious footnotes - should try instead reading academic historians, who usually provide footnotes to all their sources in immmense detail. this is the place to start looking. assuming that one really wants to know the truth. i'll bet the folks on alt.pagan are tired of this subject already. my apologies - we seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. i forget which gods are responsible for keeping strings within appropriate newsgroup subject boundaries... david matthew deane (deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu) "...be in me as the eternal moods of the bleak wind...let the gods speak softly of us in days hereafter..." (ezra pound) 
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 my online bible is on a cd, but i don't own a cd-rom system for the time being, so i can't search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn't want to break existing (jewish) laws. in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day, if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus. i think the passage you're looking for is the following. matthew 5:17 "think not that i have come to abolish the law and the prophets; i have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. matthew 5:18 for truly, i say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. matthew 5:19 whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of matthew 5:20 for i tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. there are several problems with this. the most serious is that the law was regarded by jews at the time (and now) as binding on jews, but not on gentiles. there are rules that were binding on all human beings (the so-called noachic laws), but they are quite minimal. the issue that the church had to face after jesus' death was what to do about gentiles who wanted to follow christ. the decision not to impose the law on them didn't say that the law was abolished. it simply acknowledged that fact that it didn't apply to gentiles. this is a simple answer, which i think just about everyone can agree to. (a discussion of the issue in more or less these terms is recorded in acts 15.) however there's more involved. in order to get a full picture of the role of the law, we have to come to grips with paul's apparent rejection of the law, and how that relates to jesus' commendation of the law. at least as i read paul, he says that the law serves a purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded. again, this issue isn't one of the abolition of the law. in the middle of his discussion, paul notes that he might be understood this way, and assures us that that's not what he intends to say. rather, he sees the law as primarily being present to convict people of their sinfulness. but ultimately it's an impossible standard, and one that has been superceded by christ. paul's comments are not the world's clearest here, and not everyone agrees with my reading. but the interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does not entail an abolition of the law. it still remains as an uncompromising standard, from which not an iota or dot may be removed. for its purpose of convicting of sin, it's important that it not be relaxed. however for christians, it's not the end -- ultimately we live in faith, not law. while the theoretical categories they use are rather different, in the end i think jesus and paul come to a rather similar conclusion. the quoted passage from mat 5 should be taken in the context of the rest of the sermon on the mount, where jesus shows us how he interprets the law. the "not an iota or dot" would suggest a rather literal reading, but in fact that's not jesus' approach. jesus' interpretations emphasize the intent of the law, and stay away from the ceremonial details. indeed he is well known for taking a rather free attitude towards the sabbath and kosher laws. some scholars claim that mat 5:17-20 needs to be taken in the context of 1st cent. jewish discussions. jesus accuses his opponents of caring about giving a tenth of even the most minor herbs, but neglecting the things that really matter: justice, mercy and faith, and caring about how cups and plates are cleaned, but not about the fact that inside the people who use them are full of extortion and rapacity. (mat 23:23-25) this, and the discussion later in mat 5, suggest that jesus has a very specific view of the law in mind, and that when he talks about maintaining the law in its full strength, he is thinking of these aspects of it. paul's conclusion is similar. while he talks about the law being superceded, all of the specific examples he gives involve the "ceremonial law", such as circumcision and the sabbath. he is quite concerned about maintaining moral standards. the net result of this is that when paul talks about the law being superceded, and jesus talks about the law being maintained, i believe they are talking about different aspects of the law. paul is embroiled in arguments about circumcision. as is natural in letters responding to specific situations, he's looking at the aspect of the law that is currently causing trouble: the law as specifically jewish ceremonies. he certainly does not intend to abolish divine standards of conduct. on the other hand, when jesus commends the law, he seems to be talking the law in its broadest implications for morals and human relationships, and deemphasizing those aspects that were later to give paul so much trouble. it's unfortunate that people use the same terms in different ways, but we should be familiar with that from current conflicts. look at the way terms like "family values" take on special meaning from the current context. imagine some poor historian of the future trying to figure out why "family values" should be used as a code word for opposition to homosexuality in one specific period in the u.s. i think law had taken on a similar role in the arguments paul was involved in. paul was clearly not rejecting all of the jewish values that go along with the term "law", any more than people who concerned about the "family values" movement are really opposed to family 
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 in a previous article, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (b.a. davis-howe) says: on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are, let me point out the golden dawn is only the *outer* order of that tradition. the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis. just wondering, do you mean the "lectorium rosicrucianum"? warning: there is no point in arguing who's "legit" and who's not. *which* golden dawn are you talking about? which golden dawn? how about the original from 100 years ago? just for the sake of argument, (reflecting no affiliation) i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown, penn., any takers? :-) no. no rosicrucian would ever admit or deny being such. grendel grettisson 
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 the neighbor of the beast no, 667 is across the street from the beast. 664 and 668 are the neighbors of the beast. i think some people are still not clear on this: 667 is *not* the neighbor of the beast, but, rather, across the street. it is, in fact, 668 which is the neighbor of the beast. no, sheesh, didn't you know 666 is the beast's apartment? 667 is across the hall from the beast, and is his neighbor along with the rest of the 6th floor. justin (still trying to figure out what this has to do with alt.discordia) this doesn't seem discordant to you? -paul w. stigaard, lokean discordian libertarian !xoa! internet: stigaard@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (fnord) episkopos and chair, moorhead state university campus discordians rectal neufotomist at large "if i left a quote here, someone would think it meant something." 
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 does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian-owned corporations and companies? one that i know of is wordperfect. naw, the owners of wordperfect are mormons, and by tony rose's and robert weiss' standards, mormons aren't christians. :-) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (jason hunsaker), logan, utah 
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 }>}>}(a) out of context; }>}>must have missed when you said this about these other "promises of god" that we keep }>}>getting subjected to. could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok? }>}>or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy. both or neither. }>}so, according to you, jim, the only way to criticize one person for }>}taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a }>}response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context? }>did i either ask or assert that? or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again? }(1) stephen said you took a quote out of context }(2) you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t.r.m article } (call it a) that took a quote out of context }(3) but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the } lack of x (a common creationist error) }(4) so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the } conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent. now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made, other than a direct assertion by his part. for instance, am i to assume that you have no position on eating shit merely because you have not said your position, or might a conclusion be made by observing that you do not. }(7) i assumed you were being logical, and that the sentence that begins } "could you please explain ..." was not a nonsequitur, but was intended } to follow from the sentence that preceded it. }is that better jim? it's called an argument. if you disagree with it, }explain why the argument is not sound. (i admit that my assumption in (7) }may have been a bit hasty.) if you agree with it, just say "yup." have you, by chance, ever even heard of inductive logic? you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it (i.e. you are being insufficiently logical). 
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 |> leviticus 21:9 |> and the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the |> whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. |> deuteronomy 22:20-21 |> ...and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: then they shall |> bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of the |> city shall stone her with stones that she die... |> deuteronomy 22:22 |> if a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall |> both of them die... |> deuteronomy 22:23-24 |> if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her |> in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both out unto the |> gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die... |> deuteronomy 22:25 |> but if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, |> and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 lev 17:11: for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. the old testament was very big on the "eye for an eye" business. it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to "repay" moral wrongdoing. brian k., guess what? you missed the point. on a scale from cold to hot, you are at 0 degrees kelvin. i know about sanctification. i've been taught all about it in sunday school, catechism class, and theology classes. but even after all that, i still can't accept it. maybe i'm still not understanding it, or maybe i'm just understanding it all too well. then as you understand it, what is it? from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong. yes. i agree with that. but what does that have to do with jesus? punishment you say? jesus did not regard his death as punishment. i've tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it, but i just can't. good. i wouldn't either--not the way you understand it. if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a *good* thing, then i would be very glad to hear it, and you might even convert me. be warned, however, that i've heard all the most common arguments before, and they just don't convince me. ask jesus himself. he himself said why in john 12:23-32. it isn't a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for a persuasive argument. read jesus's own reply to your jesus gives more reasons in john 16:7. but one obvious reason why jesus died, (and as with everything else, it has nothing do with his punishment) was that he could rise to life again--so that we would "stop doubting and believe" (john 21:27). the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead. it is an obvious point. do not overlook it. without this obvious point, i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity. why did jesus suffer in his death? again, ask jesus. jesus says why in john 15:18-25. that's no mystery either. "the world hates him without reason." it is a direct proclamation of how far we humans botch things up and thus, how much we need a saviour. and why can't you, brian k., accept this? how can you? "the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him." (john 14:17). the animosity and the lack of knowledge that comes out in your twistings of robert's daily verses is very convincing testimony of the truth of john 14:17 and 16:25. i pray and hope that i do blurt out such animosity and lack of knowledge. i am not perfect either. but regardless of that, i thank god that jesus revealed himself to me, without whom i'd also be bumbling about blindly though arrogantly slandering the very person who created me and who loves me. 
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 if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a *good* thing, then i would be very glad to hear it, and you might even convert me. be warned, however, that i've heard all the most common arguments before, and they just don't convince me. be warned, it is not my job to convert you. that is the job of the holy spirit. and i, frankly, make a lousy one. i am only here to testify. your conversion is between you and god. i am "out of the loop". if you decide to follow jesus, of which i indeed would be estatic, then all the glory be to god. brian ceccarelli brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu 
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 }(4) so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the } conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent. now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made, other than a direct assertion by his part. replace "stephen" with "david joslin," since you directed the same in t.r.m. robert weiss writes [a promise from psalm 9:10] gee, since you wouldn't be at all hypocritical, you must be really busy arguing against these out-of-context extracted translations! as you may recall, you mailed me six mail messages quoting articles by robert weiss, all sent within a few minutes of each other. you added: naturally, i await your arguments against this out-of-context translation. but i shall not await holding my breath... wonder when you get to sleep, disputing all these out-of-context extracted translations! and other similar comments. perhaps you could explain why you ever thought that i might have a reason to read all of these articles you pulled off of t.r.m, much less write responses to them? have you, by chance, ever even heard of inductive logic? you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it (i.e. you are being insufficiently logical). i am familiar with inductive logic. go ahead and give me the details of the "logic" that led you to conclude, incorrectly, that i would condone robert weiss taking verses out of context. your conclusion was wrong, of course, since i agree that both you and robert weiss were guity of taking verses out of context. nothing hypocritical about that, is there? since you reached a false conclusion, you made some mistake in your "logic." the only question is where. did you think that it would be hypocritical for me not to post a reply to robert weiss' articles? did you make the common creationist error of confusing a lack of evidence for x with evidence for the lack of x? is your grasp of inductive logic not quite as firm as you think? see if you can figure out what your mistake was, and learn from it. 
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 i need to prioritize things in my life, and this board is not all that important to me. my personal relationship wife the lord is first, my wife is second, and my ministry at church is third. (not to mention my job!) have you informed your wife of this prioritization? this board will have to wait until (if ever) i can organize my life to fit it in. i tried dropping out, but sieferman coerced me to come back. he won't this time. thou hast used my name in vain! i never coerce. ridicule, maybe, but never coerce. please take responsibility for your actions. (deletia) i'm history. i appreciate your efforts. good luck. 
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 : medtronic.com (dale m. skiba) entirely missed my point in my previous : comment: : shortly after that post, i realized two things: i was running a fever of : over 102, and that i probably should not have gone directly from reading : alt.slack to posting on this august newsgroup. : >: >it is not ad hominen to point out that mr archer willingly prints blatant : >: lies : >: >in defense of bible inerrancy, and thus is worthless as an expert witness. : >: okay, im game, give us a listing of blatant lies from _encyclopedia of : >: biblical difficulties_ or other archer writings. : >that would be interesting. if only a very short list can be generated, : >i think it is more likely that mr. archer, with his inerancy mindset is : >not always impartial and made a doozy of a mistake. (imho i also think : >that this mindset tends to generate these sorts of mistakes...) : >on the other hand, if a long list can be generated, it is more likely : >that mr. archer intentionally uses deception in hs books. (why should : >he be deceptive just with tyre?) : so, archer is just sitting around, rubbing his hands and plotting how next : to deceive? ok, lets _see_ the list... this was an open question. i assumed that if mr. archer is a chronic liar, someone whould have documented it. this assumption is based on how talk.origins regulars have documented numerous cases of creationist deceptions (such as duane guish and his friends). no long list of archer mistakes has yet been given, so this may be just an isolated incident... dale skiba 
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 i must correct the following in my previous posting: : if you are trying to be objective, you must also recognise that : 1) the gospels are not independent sources, on the contrary, they : share much of the same material i should have been a bit more careful here - the gospels not only tell us about the same events, they usually use the same wordings. textual analyses show that matthew and luke probably had a common source, which may have influenced mark, too. ___. .'*''.* petri pihko kem-pmp@ mathematics is the truth. !___.'* '.'*' ' . pihatie 15 c finou.oulu.fi physics is the rule of ' *' .* '* sf-90650 oulu kempmp@ the game. *' * .* finland phoenix.oulu.fi -> chemistry is the game. 
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 [ a lot of religious opinions and quotations from the bible and from many catholic theologians and papal bulls ] [ which, although introduced with a smiley, was not as funny as it might have been (notable exception: subject headers such as "one's dick is one's instrument of redemption." ] [ and indeed, the posting seemed to be more a vehicle for the religious text than for any "literary/moral analysis" ] i am surprised and saddened. i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born-again gospel-thumping in-your-face we're- the-only-true-christian protestants, but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this. friend dennis, i urge you to follow the example of your fellow catholics, of who i count many dozens as my friends, and practice your faith through good example and decent living and respect for the common humanity of others. please do not stoop to the level of the e b-a g-t i-y-f w-t-o-t-c protestants, who think that the best way to witness is to be strident, intrusive, loud, insulting and overbearingly self-righteous. the imagery in the song of solomon is a little bit dated (get it? middle east - date palms - oh, never mind) but apparently acceptable, on a steaminess level, to be accepted as part of the canon. from this fact i derive that erotica itself is not incompatible with catholic doctrine. is there such a thing as catholic erotica? not necessarily a love story between people of that faith, but a love story that is not exploitative, does not seek redemption through penis size, pays proper respect to the dignity of each partner, and is still erotic enough to have a place on a.s.s. i would submit that the _darknites_ series of stories qualify, also most of the _journal entries_, and _rings i and ii_. i would guess that your aim is to cut down on the pornography and increase the erotica. i actually agree with you that nearly all of the "i've got an enormous dick, and i shot my wad all over her face" stories are crap. i count them as noise, which makes my take on the signal-to-noise ration much lower than many other people's. since you are one of the few posters here who can actually write decent prose, could you write a few stories for us instead of overwhelming us with commentary? anyway, this is a big subject. please add your comments, additions and observations. dzkriz@ocf.berkeley.edu thank you. foster@mtechca.maintech.com 
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 jesus gives more reasons in john 16:7. but one obvious reason why jesus died, (and as with everything else, it has nothing do with his punishment) was that he could rise to life again--so that we would "stop doubting and believe" (john 21:27). the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead. it is an obvious point. do not overlook it. without this obvious point, i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity. glad to hear this, just a note, osiris, mithras and many other cult gods resurrected as well, so there's a good chance for all of us to maybe end up in a virtual reality simulator, and live forever, hurrah! sorry, this was a joke, some sort of one anyway. i'm the first that connected osiris with a virtual reality personality database. time to write a book. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 the blood of the lamb. mithraist: washed in the blood of the bull. if anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion, do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been reserved. please choose another animal, preferably one not on the endangered species list. this will be a hard task, because most cultures used most animals for blood sacrifices. it has to be something related to our current post-modernism state. hmm, what about used computers? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile jews won't agree with you, malcolm. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 iank@microsoft.com (ian kennedy) writes... correction to my prior post, proper citation is: isaiah 30:26 -- moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound. so we have to wait for the sun to nova? more along the lines of hebrews 12:25-29, i reckon... see that you refuse not him that speaks. for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, yet once more i shake not the earth only, but also and this word, yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve god acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our god is a consuming fire. or 2nd thessalonians 1:7-10... and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. kinda gives flaming a whole new meaning, i reckon. the impression i got from talking with livingston was that the coming of the lord, power-wise, is going to be something that those who are unprepared can't handle -- kinda like overloading a fuse -- due to guilt. somehow it seems to also apply to the entire physical world as we know it. lf suggests that god doesn't want that and has sent koresh as a reminder. seems that those who have been purified through salvation, or that those protected by the seals, will be the ones who survive. and no -- i don't have a good idea yet what "being shielded by the seals" actually involves or how exactly it relates to salvation. (other than it involves the marriage of the bridegroom and the bride... for those of you biblical well versed.) me personally, i'm totally 100% dependent on god through christ, so if god wants me to understand, good. if not, also good. if god wants to save me, or dispose of me, that's great either way. being born in the spirit, means being part of the body of christ (ephesians 2), so who and what i was, matters little. * what's important is loving god * come nova, nuke, or apocalypse -- who cares? satan might even be able to pull off a pretty convincing fake. big deal. not worth fearing or worrying about though, not before: -* the greater glory of god *- maybe koresh is right, maybe he isn't, and it should be interesting to see the new message (or prophecy). the tour of the bible i've taken in studying the passages he points to in the 3-02 text, has been most re- warding. but the test of prophecy is still the fruit it bears -- which is not yet clear. much much more important is "charity" -- which by definition *is* -- love for god (i hope dear reader, you've taken all this as an expression of faith, and not a statement of mere fact. seems many folks get real upset at reminders. ;-) -- j -- | stephen 
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 on 15 apr 1993 22:34:40 gmt, eric sieferman observed: : christian: washed in the blood of the lamb. : mithraist: washed in the blood of the bull. : if anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion, : do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been : reserved. please choose another animal, preferably one not : on the endangered species list. how about "washed in the blood of barney the dinosaur"? :) michael d. adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) 
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 |> good question, my point was that a world with truth is better than a world |> with falsehood. a world in which it were possible to say "yes, i am |> holding a jew" (the truth) and you, me, the jew, and the ss guy all sit |> down to crack open a bottle of whiskey is better than the grim alternatives |> you present. obviously, this is not possible, and the best alternative seems |> to be to lie. that's because other values are involved, such as life. |> now that is just my opinion - don't confuse the claim 'objective morality |> exists' with the claim 'i have a lock on morals'. i think that at this point it would actually be quite easy to confuse objective morality with relative morality. actually, jon, that is quite true. christian people have caused "objective morality" to look very "relative." after all, that was the point of the original question in this thread, i.e. can we toss out christianity because it is so obviously inconsistent with its own principles? if you will bear with me, i will attempt to explain this apparent inconsistency from at least one christian's viewpoint: if god exists and is the creator of mankind as the bible claims, then he has a pretty well-defined concept of what makes people tick physically, emotionally, etc. god has an "objective" morality for us. that is to say, he has no trouble understanding what is good for (or detrimental to) the creature he created. galatians 2:10-- for we [mankind] are his workmanship, created in christ jesus for good works [a morality], which god prepared beforehand [a well-defined design], that we might walk in them. however, contrary to what many people assume (including the pharasees of the bible,) god's morality cannot be completely codified in a list of rules and regulations. to some extent, every activity of a person's life creates a new situation to which morality must be applied. there never could be enough volumes to codify god's "objective" morality for us. throughout history, mankind has tried to reduce morality to a list of rules (objectivity, if you please.) in the old testament, we have both principles and specific rules. by the time of jesus, most of the principles were obscured by the emphasis men had placed on the rules. volumes of additional rules had been made to try to codify the application of the principles. we [mankind] weren't comfortable with the "subjectivity" of principles. for reference see matthew 5 where jesus explains the difference between the law and the principles of the law. for example, in verses 21-22: "you have heard that the ancients were told, 'you shall not commit murder'...and 'whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' but i say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the court..." the "objective morality" of god gets blurred by our inept interpretation of it. we [christians] have made our biggest errors when we have allowed any one person or group of people decide exactly what god intended for us. if we [christians] would stay committed to seeking god's will instead of trying to prove we already had it all figured out, we might do a better job of allowing others to find god's "objective morality" for themselves. if jesus is who he said he was/is (and that's the fundamental question,) then he is "objective morality." john nunnally 
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 fact or rumor....? madalyn murray o'hare an atheist who eliminated the use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools 15 years ago is now going to appear before the fcc with a petition to stop the reading of the gospel on the airways of america. and she is also campaigning to remove christmas programs, songs, etc from the public schools. if it is true then mail to federal communications commission 1919 h street washington dc 20054 expressing your opposition to her request. reference petition number 
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 rocco l. martino, a philadelphia business executive wrote: "separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution." blechhhh. gimme that ole' time inquisition ... oh yes, the organization's "national ecclesisatical advisor" is catholic politician cardinal john j. o'connor of new york. it figures, doesn't it? michael l. siemon we must know the truth, and we must mls@ulysses.att.com love the truth we know, and we must - or - act according to the measure of our love. mls@panix.com -- thomas merton 
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 in <lsjc8cinnmc1@saltillo.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (russell turpin) the issue, then, is this: christian a says, "behavior such-and-such is sinful." what is christian b supposed to *do* with such a statement? one possibility *always* exists: a may be able to persuade b that the behavior in question *does* exhibit a failure in loving god or neighbor. michael, modern liberal that he is, reads a fairly benign meaning into this word. he then constructs his religious beliefs around this understanding, reading *other* scripture in the context of these commandments, with "love" benignly understood. i regard love as no more or less "benign" than any other christian does. you are merely expressing "approval" of the consequences i find therein. which says more about our politics and cultural trappings than about my (or any) religion. "love" is a highly ambiguous word, of which christians can write both the "gentle" words paul uses of it in 1 corinthians -- in a passage that even the "conservatives" will quote at you :-) -- and the words of t. s. eliot in his pentacost hymn, "love is the unfamiliar name that wove the intolerable shirt of flame ..." this is in any case rather to the side of what i was attempting to raise in my note, as will become more evident below. as a non-believer, i find michael's christianity kinder and gentler. blechhh. i think you are misreading me, rather seriously. though, given my principle that one cannot force one's own notion of "sin" on another, and my unshakeable "disestablishmentarianism", russel turpin and others (believers and unbelievers alike) are under no threat of my legislating my own understanding of christian love. if i take him at his word, he cannot condemn the inquisitors, because they were also following these commandments as *they* understood them. if you misread. i can do (and have repeatedly done) a complete bill of accusation against the inquisition by exhibiting in as thorough a form as anyone might want a demonstration of the harm it has done to human beings (in the first place) and to respect for (let alone love of) "god" in near succession. please go back to my quoted words above: the "possibility that always exists" is that i (or, to revert to proper time sequence, my predecessors over the last several centuries) could persuade "christian b" of my case that the inquisition *does* indeed constitute an egregious violation of the law of love. i must also note that the majority of christians have been so persuaded. by christian argumentation, as well as by secular [both christian and non-christian] what mr. turpin alludes to is a trickier point: a. i demonstrate the human pain and violation of love involved in the inquisition. b. the inquisitor responds that mother church must, however painful this *seems*, "discipline" her children for their own good -- in this case the salvation of their souls (or if the tortured heretic will not recant, than by bad example "deterring" others from the same loss-of-soul.) a. i point out that this "justification" of a failure in love depends on a highly speculative construal of texts and of philosophical assertions that are quite undemonstrable. b. burns me at the stake. my rhetoric has failed, but the point i am making is sustained. what is going on here has a *lot* to do with "cultural baggage." in this case, the baggage includes a (nearly universal, and absolutely secular) belief that an accused person must prove innocence and that testimony is most believable if taken under torture. the elimination of inqisitorial practice (in those places where it *has* been eliminated, or at least greatly reduced) has very little, if anything, to do with the discussion of sin in the exchange between a and b. mr. turpin is pointing out that, if i am a versus the grand inquisitor's b, then my persuasion is not very likely to work. i know this; and in what- ever personal agony, i consign the issue to god and my ghostly defense attorney. so, "one possibility" fails in this case -- as it will fail in may others. at the other extreme, the "persuasion" will succeed when it properly should not, if it entails mistaken assumptions i share with the inquisitor. and that is potentially an even more troubling case, in that many of the victims of inquisition will have "accepted" that they were in fact sinful (in such random cases as they may actually have been guilty of charges brought against them.) the point is that the "persuasion" breaks down when the parties do not share enough to agree on all the cultural baggage -- and given the main thrust of the inquisition, against "heresy", it is *bound* to break down in precisely the "worst" cases. the "conservative" (i don't think that is the right word, btw) will take refuge in what i attribute to b above, that he is "justified" in causing harm because he *thinks* that works to a "greater good." but this is a violent and extravagant refusal to follow the gospel, as if one's theories about "sin" entitled one to cast aside jesus' words on dealing with sinners (cf. matthew 5:39ff). i am a "radical" christian *only* in that i take the gospel seriously. (or, for that matter, what does it mean to love one's fellow man?) and what is the "right thing"? and how does one go about loving god? well, the whole *point* of making these the "base" commandments is that they *aren't* reducible to rules. a set of rules is a moral code or a law code or an algorithm for acting. such things can be very helpful to individuals or societies -- but not if they are used *instead* of a personal involvement in and responsibility for one's actions. the great commandment is, more than anything else, a call to act *as if you were god and accepting ultimate responsibility* in your every action. a demand that i, like most, would rather *not* hear, but it keeps popping up nonetheless (along with the reassurance that it is more important that i be open to trying this, than succeeding at it). "conservatives" may twist this "act as if you were god" to mean "lay down rules for other people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don't keep your rules." they are so insistent (and obvious) about this that they have convinced a lot of people (who rightly reject the whole concept!) that such idiocy is how god acts. that, after all, is the standard accusation "against god" by the atheists here and elsewhere. that the "conservatives" have confused their manipulative, hoop-jumping notions of coercing other people with the nature of god is almost the entire content of standard american atheism -- and i quite agree with it on this point. ethical systems are not differentiated by the nice sounding goo up front, much of which sounds pretty much the same, but by the *specific* acts, procedures, and arguments that they recommend. and different bodies of christians have, from the beginning, urged *different* "ethical systems" (or in some cases, none). as a result, it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems, however popular (or infamous) with christianity. christianity does not have a torah. it does not have a qu'ran. specifically christian scripture has very little, if anything, in the way of "commandments" -- so little that the "christians" who desperately *want* commandments go "mining" for them with almost no support (and thus almost no obvious limitation :-)) for their efforts. the one, single, thing in the gospels which jesus specifically "gives" as "a commandment" to us is "love one another." [i will be expanding on this point in a reply to paul hudson that i hope to get to in a day or so -- it is quite true that some christians infer lots of commandments from the nt; i'll point out what has to be going on in these inferences, and why there is a huge amount of "cultural baggage" involved.] you are quite right that this is "goo" if one is looking for an ethical but why should anyone be looking for an ethical system, since our society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do? it may be that we need a principle for the critique of ethical systems -- in which case i will profer the _agapate allelou_ once again. i am glad that a few christians, such as michael, find a benign meaning for the goo, and then interpret the usually ugly specifics in a more constructive fashion. on the other hand, i do think that this tells us more about michael and christians like him that it tells us about i think you are begging the question. why don't i and the (myriads of) other christians like me tell you something about christianity? [nor is this very new in christianity -- you might want to look up the origins and fundamental doctrines of the quakers, from the 17th century onwards, and they are not at all the first to understand the gospel in a manner that is congenial to my case.] michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 i will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: i will guide thee with mine eye. psalm 32:8 
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 : >based on the amount of e-mail from fellow christians who have read the : >posts and told me i was wasting my time with butler and joslin, i told : >them i wasn't doing it for db or dj but for other christians. they : >have told me that db's and dj's arguments won't convince most bible : >studying christians. so i have reevaluated my purpose here and it's : >also contributed to my decision. : so most bible-studying christians won't be convinced by my arguments? : and this is supposed to be a good thing, i presume? where does this "most bible studying christians think as frank does" come from. and what implied "good" are you doing for other at least some of what you are teaching has been demonstrated as wrong. has it ever occured to you that you may be doing more harm than good to your fellow christians? btw, i used to think like frank does. i went to a fundamentalist church for a while. i didn't start to really think about what they were saying until i noticed a "god's science" phamphlet there. i read it and noticed that the authors of it knew virtually nothing about science. i asked church members some questions about "theories" from the phamphlet and got only deceptive answers. i began to notice a very similar style of "answers" for theological questions as well. the only conclusion i could reach was that these peoples' beliefs about the bible were about as valid as their beliefs in their god's science phamphlet. : if there are still people out there who think that my purpose here : is to "attack the bible," (an accusation frank once made) i would point : out that i have also criticized people who have posted "bible : contradictions" that turn out to be silly, out of context, or easily : (and legitimately) reconciled. i'm not attacking the bible, but : intellectual dishonesty *about* the bible, from either side. if one of the primary purposes of christians is to seek out truth, how can people condemn you for doing this? dale skiba 
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 rick anderson replied to my letter with... ra> in article <c5elp2.l0c@acsu.buffalo.edu>, ra> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (robert weiss) says: ra> ra> > well, jason, it's heretical in a few ways. the first point is that ra> > this equates lucifer and jesus as being the same type of being. ra> > however, lucifer is a created being: "thou [wast] perfect in thy ra> > ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in ra> > thee." (ezekiel 28:15). while jesus is uncreated, and the creator of ra> > all things: "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with ra> > god, and the word was god. the same was in the beginning with god. ra> > all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made ra> > that was made." (john 1:1-3) "and he is before all things, and by ra> > him all things consist." (colossians 1:17) ra> ra> your inference from the ezekiel and john passages that lucifer was ra> "created" and that jesus was not depends on a particular interpetation of ra> the word "create" -- one with which many christians may not agree. ra> granted the mormon belief that all of god's children (including christ ra> and lucifer) are eternally existent intelligences which were "organized" ra> into spirit children by god, the term "creation" can apply equally well ra> to both of those passages. just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. you refer to differing interpretations of "create," and say that many christians may not agree. so what? that is really irrelevant. we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another, do we? the bottom line is truth, regardless of popularity of opinions. also, i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the mormon belief..." you can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed. in order to reply to the issue, you have to address and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant. the bible states that lucifer was created. the bible states that jesus is the creator of all. the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same. ra> > your point that we all are brothers of jesus and lucifer is also ra> > heretical, since we are not innately brothers and sisters of christ. ra> > we are adopted, "for ye have not received the spirit of bondage ra> > again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby ra> > we cry, abba, father." (romans 8:15); and not the natural children ra> > of god. it is only through faith that we even enter the family of ra> > god; "for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus." ra> > (galatians 3:26). and it is only through the manifestation of this ra> > faith in receiving jesus that we are become the sons of god. "but ra> > as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of ra> > god, [even] to them that believe on his name: which were born, not ra> > of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but ra> > of god." (john 1:12-13) ra> ra> has it occured to you, robert, that being "born of" someone or being ra> of that person (or person)'s "family" may be a symbolic term in the new ra> testament? mormons believe that we are "adopted" into the house of ra> israel through baptism and faith in christ, although some have expressed ra> belief that this does evince a physical change in our bodies. the mormon belief is that all are children of god. literally. there is nothing symbolic about it. this however, contradicts what the bible says. the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god: the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; (matthew 13:38) i speak that which i have seen with my father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. (john 8:38) ye do the deeds of your father. then said they to him, we be not born of fornication; we have one father, [even] god. jesus said unto them, if god were your father, ye would love me: for i proceeded forth and came from god; neither came i of myself, but he sent me. why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. when he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (john 8:41-44) and said, o full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the lord? (acts 13:10) wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (ephesians 2:2) in this the children of god are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of god, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 john 3:10) one becomes a child of god... but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of god, [even] to them that believe on his name: (john 1:12) behold, what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of god: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. beloved, now are we the sons of god, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 john 3:1-2) ...when he is born again through faith in jesus christ: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of god. (john 1:13) having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by jesus christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (ephesians 1:5) of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (james 1:18) for as many as are led by the spirit of god, they are the sons of god. for ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, abba, father. the spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of god: (romans 8:14-16) beloved, let us love one another: for love is of god; and every one that loveth is born of god, and knoweth god. (1 john 4:7) whosoever believeth that jesus is the christ is born of god: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 john 5:1) for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus. (galatians 3:26) ra> > we are told that, "and this is life eternal, that they might know ra> > thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou hast sent." ra> > (john 17:3). life eternal is to know the only true god. yet the ra> > doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra> > different jesus, a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra> > the bible. they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim ra> > one as being true denies the other from being true. according to the ra> > bible, eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god, and ra> > not the construct of imagination. ra> ra> ra> robert, with all due respect, who died and left you chief arbiter of ra> correct biblical interpretation? i don't mean to be snotty about this, ra> but the fact is that the bible is so differently interpreted by different ra> groups of biblical scholars (what do you think of the jehovah's ra> witnesses, for example?) that to make reference to the "jesus of the ra> bible" is simply ridiculous. whose "jesus of the bible" do you mean? this is really a red herring. it doesn't address any issue raised, but rather, it seeks to obfuscate. the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible, doesn't change what the bible teaches. for example, the fact that the jehovah's witnesses deny the deity of christ does not alter what the bible teaches [ "looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great god and our saviour jesus christ;" (titus 2:13),"simon peter, a servant and an apostle of jesus christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of god and our saviour jesus christ:" (2 peter 1:1)] on the deity of christ. we first look to the bible to see what it teaches. to discount, or not even address, what the bible teaches because there are some groups that have differing views is self-defeating. to see what the bible teaches, you have to look at the bible. ra> > "our lord's mortality was essential to his own salvation" (_the ra> > promised messiah_, p. 456), "he had to work out his own salvation by ra> > doing the will of the father in all things" (ibid., p.54), "he had ra> > to be baptized to gain admission to the celestial kingdom" (_mormon ra> > doctrine_, p.71). ra> ra> welcome to the wonderful world of mormon paradoctrine, robert. the ra> above books are by the late bruce r. mcconkie, a former general authority ra> of the lds church. those books were not published by the church, nor do ra> they constitute "offical doctrine." they consist of his opinions. now, ra> does that mean that what he says is not true? not at all; i'll have to ra> think about the idea of christ's personal salvation before i come to any ra> conclusions myself. the conclusions i come to may seem "heretical" to ra> you, but i'm prepared to accept that. i find this rather curious. when i mentioned that the mormon belief is that jesus needed to be saved, i put forward some quotes from the late apostle, bruce mcconkie. the curious part is that no one addressed the issue of `jesus needing to be saved.' rick comes the closest with his "i have my own conclusions" to addressing the point. most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' i don't think that it matters if mcconkie's views were canon. that is not the issue. were mcconkie's writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue. the indication from rick is that they may certainly be. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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 93!04.16 e.v. after the glorious eve of taxation do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. the word of sin is restriction. "to all whom it may concern - "it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women, who having themselves found the path to real self-knowledge, and who, having travelled the burning sands, are willing to give the benefit of their experience, and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be "while numberless societies, associations, orders, groups etc. have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world, all following some line of occult study, yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity, and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth. "this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars. ordo templi orientis. otherwise: the hermetic brotherhood of light. "it is a modern school of magic. and, like the ancient schools of magic, it derived its knowledge from the east. this knowledge was never its possessors.[sic] it was recorded in symbol, parable and allegory, requiring a key for its interpretation.... "this key can be placed within the reach of all those who... apply for membership to the oriental templars (o.t.o.). "the o.t.o.... is a body of initiates in whose hands are concentrated the secret knowledge of all oriental orders and of all existing masonic degrees.... "the o.t.o., although an academia masonica, is not a masonic body, so far as the craft degrees are concerned in the sense in which that expression is usually understood in england, and therefore in no way conflicts with or infringes the just priveleges of the united lodge of england. english master masons in good standing, by arrangement, on affiliation, are admitted at reduced charges. members of the ix degree become part-proprietors of the estates and goods of the order. for further information see the publications of the o.t.o., and the synopsis of the degrees of the o.t.o." 'constitution of the ancient order of oriental templars, ordo templi orientis', by frater superior merlin peregrinus x degree, past grand master albert karl theodor reuss taken from _equinox iii: 10_, edited by frater superior rex summus sanctissimus, united states caliph of ordo templi orientis invoke me under my stars. love is the law, love under will. i am i! frater (i) nigris (dclxvi) (cccxxxiii) 
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 "to all whom it may concern - "it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women, who having themselves found the path to real self-knowledge, and who, having travelled the burning sands, are willing to give the benefit of their experience, and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be "while numberless societies, associations, orders, groups etc. have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world, all following some line of occult study, yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity, and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth. "this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars. ordo templi orientis. otherwise: the hermetic brotherhood of light. up to this point, i was kinda hoping that this was a joke. still, it would make a great premise for a bad syndicated tv show- "these are the adventures of the oriental templars... dedicated to truth, justice, and good karma! (dramatic music in the background.)" no doubt i've just horribly offended someone. mike swaim |whenever the soft drink machine needs to be swaim@owlnet.rice.edu |restocked, rather than getting angry, disclamer: i lie |meditate on the impermanence of all things |and the emptiness of coke. 
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 text 45 trai-gunya-visaya veda nistrai-gunyo bhavarjuna nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho niryoga-ksema atmavan trai-gunya--pertaining to the three modes of material nature; visayah--on the subject matter; vedah--vedic literatures; nistrai-gunyah--transcendental to the three modes of material nature; bhava--be; arjuna--o arjuna; nirdvandvah--without duality; nitya-sattva-sthah--in a pure state of spiritual existence; niryoga-ksemah--free from ideas of gain and protection; atma-van--established in the self. the vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. o arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self. all material activities involve actions and reactions in the three modes of material nature. they are meant for fruitive results, which cause bondage in the material world. the vedas deal mostly with fruitive activities to gradually elevate the general public from the field of sense gratification to a position on the transcendental plane. arjuna, as a student and friend of lord krsna, is advised to raise himself to the transcendental position of vedanta philosophy where, in the beginning, there is brahma-jijnasa, or questions on the supreme transcendence. all the living entities who are in the material world are struggling very hard for existence. for them the lord, after creation of the material world, gave the vedic wisdom advising how to live and get rid of the material entanglement. when the activities for sense gratification, namely the karma-kanda chapter, are finished, then the chance for spiritual realization is offered in the form of the upanisads, which are part of different vedas, as the bhagavad-gita is a part of the fifth veda, namely the mahabharata. the upanisads mark the beginning of transcendental life. as long as the material body exists, there are actions and reactions in the material modes. one has to learn tolerance in the face of dualities such as happiness and distress, or cold and warmth, and by tolerating such dualities become free from anxieties regarding gain and loss. this transcendental position is achieved in full krsna consciousness when one is fully dependent on the good will of krsna. bhagavad-gita as it is books of a.c. bhaktivedanta swami | don't forget to chant: | | hare krishna hare krishna, krishna krishna hare hare | | hare rama hare rama, rama rama hare hare | | kalki's infoline bbs aiken, south carolina, usa | | (system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us) | 
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 in a previous article, thyagi@cup.portal.com (thyagi morgoth nagasiva) says: "it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women, who having themselves found the path to real self-knowledge, and who, having travelled the burning sands, are willing to give the benefit of their experience, and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be "while numberless societies, associations, orders, groups etc. have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world, all following some line of occult study, yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics up to that point i thought you were talking about the rosicrucian order... :-) [no offense intended!] 
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 long time, no see. andreas - siperian sirri siberian stint no itu, love, evolution. tuusniemi ! siis imein suut ! 
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 : can you please point to something, anything, that proves to me that : the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact : the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes? : can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very : cleverly-constructed fable, and that it does indeed have some bearing : on my own personal day-to-day life? would you consider the word of an eye-witness (peter) to testify to the events surrounding jesus' life? 2pe 1 16 ¶ we did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our lord jesus christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2pe 1 17 for he received honor and glory from god the father when the voice came to him from the majestic glory, saying, "this is my son, whom i love; with him i am well pleased."¹ 2pe 1 18 we ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 2pe 1 19 ¶ and we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. this is a documented testimony. perhaps further research on your part is warranted before making more statements. there is considerably more to study in peters' two books of testimony regarding the messiah. it is well worth your time, mr. brian. jim burrill 
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 |> so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire |> on their house, killing most of the people inside. i would hardly consider the bd's to be christian. they were acting in direct contradiction to scripture. jesus' second coming is something that everyone will know of. jesus also predicted that there will be false messiahs who will use his name. his prophecy has been fulfilled. |> i'm not that annoyed about the adults, they knew supposedly what |> they were doing, and it's their own actions. |> what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside, |> including mothers, let the children suffer and die during awful |> conditions. i agree with you there. |> if this is considered religious following to the end, i'm proud |> that i don't follow such fanatical and non-compassionate religions. me too. i have already given my life to god. if god tells me to lay down my life, it will be to save another life. |> you might want to die for whatever purpose, but please spare |> the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all. |> i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity |> knows about the word compassion. christians, do you think |> the actions today would produce a good picture of your |> religion? do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not? the bd's contradicted scripture in their actions. they were not christian. simple as that. perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed. ask any true-believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd's. even the 7th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult, which was what they were. do you judge all muslims by the acts committed by saddam hussein, a supposedly devout muslim? i don't. saddam is just a dictator using the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends. god be with you, malcolm lee :) |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 |> in article <1993apr19.165717.25790@ra.royalroads.ca>, |> > it is true what you stated above: jesus' saving grace is available to |> > everyone, not just jews. in other words, everyone can have salvation but |> > not everyone will. this option is now open to people other than just |> > jews. of course, if the jews don't accept the deity of christ, i would |> > hardly expect them to accept anything that christ said. but i don't feel |> > any animosity towards them. even though they persecuted jesus and his |> > disciples and eventually crucified him, i bear them no ill will. if anything, |> > i feel pity for them. jesus had to die to pay the price for our sins and |> > so the jews were merely fulfilling prophesy. jesus knew he had to die even |> > before he began his ministry. that demonstrates the great depth of his love |> > for us. |> jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the |> children who died today at the davidian complex. |> sorry, but the events today made me even more negative concering |> organized religion. i understand and sympathize with your pain. what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy. don't take it out on us christians though. the branch davidians were not an organized religion. they were a cult led by a ego-maniac cult leader. the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man, the lord of lords and king of kings, jesus christ. btw, david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed. god be with you, malcolm lee :) |> cheers, |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83660">
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 |> in article <93apr20.011634edt.47719@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, |> > in article <sandvik-190493200420@sandvik-kent.apple.com> |> > | i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity |> > | knows about the word compassion. christians, do you think |> > | the actions today would produce a good picture of your |> > | religion? |> > clearly all people considering themselves christians are all alike, |> > and support one another in everything they do. in particular, it |> > follows that they certainly will support all the actions of any |> > other person calling himself a christian... not. |> i see, there are christians, and there are christians. no wonder |> the christian world is in shambles, you can't even agree who |> is a rightful one and a wrong one. if one does not follow the teachings of christ, he is not christian. too easy? |> please, i would like to hear your comments about a supposed |> christian leader that makes sure that children are burnt to |> death. would you say all muslims are like saddam hussein? i wouldn't make such a blanket judgement, why do you? |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83661">
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 |> : what bothers me most is why people who have no religious affiliation |> : continue to persecute jews? why this hatred of jews? the majority of |> : people who persecute jews are not christians (i can't speak for all |> : christians and there are bound to be a few who are on the anti-semitism |> : bandwagon.) |> do you even have anecdotal evidence to back this up? the most blatent |> persecution of the jews in history was of course done by the nazis before |> and during world war ii, a predominately lutheran crowd. sure, many |> muslims in the middle east consider the israelites to be a thorn in their |> side, but the most of the modern persecution of jews has been at the hands |> of christians (at least as far as i'm aware). |> rob lanphier |> lanph872@uidaho.edu do you consider neo-nazis and white supremists to be christian? i'd hardly classify them as christian. do they follow the teachings of christ? love one another. love your neighbour as yourself. love your enemies. is jesus christ their lord and saviour? by the persecution of jews, they are violating all the precepts of what christ died for. they are in direct violation of the teachings of christ. even jesus who was crucified by the jewish leaders of that time, loved his enemies by asking the father for forgiveness of their sins. i am a christian and i bear no animosity towards jews or any one else. the enemy is satan, not our fellow man. god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83668">
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 with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity, i thought the following quotes by mr. james holly, the anti-masonic flag carrier, would amuse you all... the following passages are exact quotes from "the southern baptist convention and freemasonry" by james l. holly, m.d., president of mission and ministry to men, inc., 550 n 10th st., beaumont, tx <much drivel deleted> "jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples, and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message." page 30. "the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity, liberty and equality is toleration. this is seen in the writings of the 'great' writers of freemasonry". page 31. <more drivel deleted> i hope you all had a good laugh! i know *i* did! <g>, a laugh? tony, this religeous bigot scares the shit out of me, and that any one bothers to listen to him causes me to have grave doubts about the future of just about anything. shades of the branch davidians, jim jones, and charlie manson. --uncle wolf --member highland lodge 748 f&am (grand lodge of california) --babtized a southern babtist --and one who has beliefs beyond the teachings of either. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83669">
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 in a previous article, cdcolvin@rahul.net (christopher d. colvin) says: i guess the san jose mercury news is wrong then,... no: it is old. you said amorc *is*, not *was*... :-) nothing personal, ok? good! :-) maybe you didn't know that it's over by now. there is no more pending legal actions from no where, period. so yes, there was a situation and it has been resolved by both parties. as long as humans handle anything, it is subjected to "breaking" :-) btw, gary l. stewart has a p.o. box in tx calling his org arc: ancient rosae crucis. i guess he couldn't take the "mo" from amorc :-) 
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 if it were a sin to violate sunday no one could ever be forgiven for that for jesus never kept sunday holy. he only recognized one day of the seven as holy. jesus also recognized other holy days, like the passover. acts 15 says that no more should be layed on the gentiles than that which is necessary. the sabbath is not in the list, nor do any of the epistles instruct people to keep the 7th day, while christians were living among people who did not keep the 7th day. it looks like that would have been a problem. instead, we have scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike (romans 14:5) and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of food we eat, jewish holy days we keep, or _in regard to the sabbath. (col. 2.) question is "on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians?" i don't think that the sabbath, or any other command of the law is totally irrelevant to modern christians, but what about collosions 2, where it says that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath? link hudson. 
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 is there evidence independent of the fbi that indicates that the branch davidians set the fire? what have the survivors said? did the press see there is, unfortunately, precedent for the u.s. government saving children by roasting them alive. (there is precedent for religious self-imolation as well.) i still wonder why the government couldn't just leave them alone. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83673">
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 in a previous article, jluther@cs.umr.edu (john w. luther) says: john: it not "good netiquette" to quote a complete article :-) nothing personal, please! :-) i also appreciate your being amused by such determined ignorance. without taking anything away from your mirth, i want to say that these views sadden me. this views sadden me too! don't think that i don't care! sorry if it seemed different. it is serious stuff; but i have a 'sick' sense of humor though (some say... :-) tolerance! 
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 lets add to those percentages 13-15% for the orphaic docterians brought to the group by paul/saul who was a high ranking initiate. on the development of orphaic mysteries, see jane harrisons .prolegomena to the study of greek religion. cambridge u press 1922. and you can easly draw your own perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83681">
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 in a previous article, shades@sorinc.cutler.com (darrin a. hyrup) says: they [thelema lodge] don't have an internet address, but they do have a cis address which can be reached via uucp/internet. it is 72105,1351 so i guess that would be '72105.1351@cis.com' or something like that. ......@compuserve.com 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83687">
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 consider your mother merlyn. you know your mother. what would you think of me if i asserted that your mother is 9 feet tall, murdered your father, and sexually abused you when you were a kid? i would just go fetch my parents, and show them to you, and thereby prove quite definitively that my mother is not named merlyn, she is not nine feet tall, and my father is quite alive. then i would assert quite simply that your deity does not exist, and wait for a similar demonstration from you. _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83691">
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 so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house, killing most of the people inside. we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house; it could have been the batf and fbi. we only have the government's word for it, after all, and people who started it by a no-knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83701">
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 be warned, it is not my job to convert you. that is the job of the holy spirit. and i, frankly, make a lousy one. i am only here to testify. your conversion is between you and god. i am "out of the loop". if you decide to follow jesus, of which i indeed would be estatic, then all the glory be to god. i've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me. i really wish i could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence i build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be so nice to know i have someone watching over me in it... i've gone into this with an open mind. i've layed my beliefs aside from time to time when i've had doubt, and i've prayed to see what good that would do. i don't see what more i can do to open myself to your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason. and if i decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some other god? zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate... all i know is that in all my searching, even though i've set aside my pride and decided that i want to know the truth no matter how difficult it may be to accept, i have never had any encounter with any deity, christian or otherwise. please tell me what more i can do while still remaining true to myself. _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83704">
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 cochrane,james shapleigh writes it wouldn't be the first time a group has committed suicide to avoid the shame of capture and persecution. this group killed itself to fulfill its interpretation of prophecy and to book a suite in paradise, taking innocent kids along for the ride. i hardly think the feds were motivated by persecution. if they were, all koresh would have had to do was surrender quietly to the authorities, without firing a shot, to get the american people behind him and put the feds in the hot seat. but no, god told him to play the tough guy. there's great strength in yielding, but few appreciate peter m. yadlowsky | wake! the sky is light! academic computing center | let us to the net again... university of virginia | companion keyboard. pmy@virginia.edu | - after basho 
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 bill gripp writes anyway, i've often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons. fyi, these people were not "followers of christ". david koresh was their messiah. ok, but didn't jesus figure somewhere into their beliefs? anyway, my original question regarding christians and weaponry still stands. peter m. yadlowsky | wake! the sky is light! academic computing center | let us to the net again... university of virginia | companion keyboard. pmy@virginia.edu | - after basho 
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 |> now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco, who is |> next? the mormons or jews? give me a break. if the mormons fortified utah and armed it to the teeth, and were involved in illegal activity, then they deserve whatever they get. where were you brought up? in the former ussr? is innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers, not dan rather, dead in this country? seems so. is tax evasion, the only charge brought against the bds, punishable by death in this country, now? you are making a ludicrous suggestion. not really. you are a blind idiot. |> we used to live in a country where everyone enjoyed the free exercise of |> their rights to worship and bear arms. now we don't. does that include the right to murder little children? how about killing atf officers? i do not know much about the gun laws in texas, but koresh's folks claimed to have grenades, grenade launchers, and rocket launchers. i am not sure that the nra feels that this falls under "right to bear arms." "not sure", yet you condem them to death for it? if the batf had stayed home, all would be alive, now. so who murdered who? |> of course, to jews and mormons this is just a broken record. it has |> happened before. please explain. i do not remember jews or mormons (as a group) overtly breaking a judicious (a.k.a. non-nazi) law and being punished for it. you have a short memory. |> i'll bet all you cult haters are happy now, right? just hope you're not followups to /dev/null alternative followups set to talk.religion.misc sleep well, tonite, heartless idiot. sleep the sleep of the simple-minded. i shall weep for my country, myself. |> ------------ john w. redelfs, cj195@cleveland.freenet.edu ------------- |> --------- all my opinions are tentative pending further data. --------- gedaliah friedenberg -=-department of mechanical engineering -=-department of metallurgy, mechanics and materials science -=-michigan state university i'm short of patience tonite, but rabid dogs deserve and get better treatment than the bds got. jmd@handheld.com "i'm always rethinking that. there's never been a day when i haven't rethought that. but i can't do that by myself." bill clinton 6 april 93 "if i were an american, as i am an englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, i never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!" william pitt, earl of chatham 1708-1778 18 nov. 1777 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83711">
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 ken arromdee writes did they not know that these men were federal officers? do you know what a "no-knock search" is? yes, but tell me how you think your question answers my question. if the bds didn't know immediately that they were dealing with feds (uniform apparel, insignia), they must have figured it out in pretty short order. why did they keep fighting? they seemed awfully ready for having been attacked "without warning". peter m. yadlowsky | wake! the sky is light! academic computing center | let us to the net again... university of virginia | companion keyboard. pmy@virginia.edu | - after basho 
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 ii samuel 24: and again the anger of the lord was kindled against israel, and he moved david against them to say, go, number isreal and judah. i chronicles 21: and satan stood up against isreal, and provoked david to number israel. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83719">
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 in article 17570@freenet.carleton.ca, ad354@freenet.carleton.ca you seem to be saying that, god being unknowable, his morality is unknowable. yep, that's pretty much it. . . . as i understand it, the sadducees believed that the torah was all that was required, whereas the pharisees (the ancestors of modern judaism) believed that the torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of the required morality in all its nuances (->talmud). the essence of all of this is that biblical morality is an interface between man and yhwh (for a jew or christian) and does not necessarily indicate anything about yhwh outside of that relationship (although one can speculate). . . . the point i`m trying to make is that we only really have the bible to interpret, and that interpretation is by humanity. i guess this is where faith or relevation comes in with all its inherent god being unknowable, i can't comment on his motives, but it would be distressing if he allowed us to misunderstand him through no fault of our own. for sanity's sake we must assume, if we believe in him at all, that his message comes through somehow. the question is whether it comes through immediately to every individual, or is contained in a complex canon that must be interpreted by experts in consultation with one another, or is transmitted directly through appointed representatives who are free to interpret, extend and modify the canon. if god's message is indeed mediated, the further problem arises as to whether the individual under- stands the mediated message fully and clearly. since the responsibility for understanding lies ultimately with the individual, we must assume that god in his benevolence guides each individual to the appropriate source for that individual, whereof the person may or may not drink. metaphysically, if there are multiple moral codes then there is no absolute moral code, and i think this is theologically questionable. no. there may be an absolute moral code. there are undoubtably multiple moral codes. the multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral code. as an example, a parent may tell a child never to swear, and the child may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told the child that it is "wrong". now, the parent may swear like a trooper in the pub or bar (where there are no children). the "wrongness" here is if the child disobeys the parent. the parent may feel that it is "inappropriate" to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of animals. the analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that he is of the same type as the parent (and may be a parent later in life) but you get the gist of it? incidentally, the young child considers the directive as absolute until he gets older (see piaget) and learns a morality of his own. your example is complicated in our age by the thin line between morality and politeness. you might have said "burp", for burping and swearing carry about the same stigma today. if you are talking about "taking the lord's name in vain" as a serious transgression, then this example is more a case of hypocrisy than of varying moral codes. if there is an absolute moral code, propositions or laws in that code apply absolutely and universally, by definition. conceivably some moral codes could be subsets of the universal code, as you say at the outset. so, for example, god's code could include, "thou shalt not create beings without a hospitable planet to live on", but this law would be inapplicable to us. nevertheless, we would be entitled to suppose that all laws applicable to us are also applicable to god. but when you begin to ask what laws might appear in god's moral code, you have a sense of the absurdity of the question. does god make laws for himself to follow? perhaps god is not the sort of being to which the category "morality" can be sensibly applied. james owens ad354@freenet.carleton.ca ottawa, ontario, canada 
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 mr. clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the waco fiasco should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so. now, i began scratching my head thinking (a bad sign :-), "don't the mainstream religions (in this case christianity...or the 7th day adventist in particular) just keep these guys going ? isn't mr. clinton condemning his own religion ? after all, isn't it a cult too ?" ... bad thoughts these. 
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 do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. the word of sin is restriction. sorry, the san jose based rosicrucian order is called a.m.o.r.c, i don't remember for the time being what the a.m. stand for but o.r.c is ordo rosae crucis, in other words latin for order of the rose cross. response: yes, very true. the entire title is 'the ancient and mystical order rosae crucis'. they are located at 1342 naglee avenue, san jose, california, 95191-0001, usa. they are considered different and largely unrelated by a number of sources. i've seen documentation which links them through the figure of h. spencer lewis. lewis was apparently involved with reuss, who was the o.h.o. of ordo templi orientis for many years. apparently it is also true that lewis had a charter to form an o.t.o. body and then created a.m.o.r.c. (as a subsidiary? an interesting question). kent: otherwise their headquarters in san jose has a pretty decent metaphysical bookstore, if any of you are interested in such books. and my son loves to run around in their egyptian museum. response: indeed, and diagonally across the street is another metaphysical book store called 'ram metaphysical', wherein i've purchased some wonderful works by crowley and others. ram metaphysical books, 1749 park ave., san jose, ca. (408) 294-2651. invoke me under my stars. love is the law, love under will. i am i! frater (i) nigris (dclxvi) cccxxxiii 
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 is the mormon church christ's true church? [...lots of stuff about intellectual errors deleted...] this is cute, but i see no statement telling me why your church is the true church. i do presume that you know or at least believe that yours is true. attempting to ream my faith without replacing it with something "better" is a real good way to loose a person completely from christ. this is the greatest reason i see that these attacks are not motivated by love. they only seek to destroy there is no building or replacing of belief. this is not something christ did. he guided and instructed he didn't seek to destroy the faith he found, he redirected it. this is what i see when people say they "love" <insert favorite group here>. and i have to laugh at the irony. please excuse the scarcasm but it was nice to say it. oh, btw robert don't take this personally, your post was merely convinent. 
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 i had said: merlyn, you missed the point too. christianity is a relationship. i have a relationship with my god. i <<know>> him. consider your mother merlyn. you know your mother. what would you think of me if i asserted that your mother is 9 feet tall, murdered your father, and sexually abused you when you were a kid? would you, who knows your mother well, think was a blind arrogant idiot to proclaim such things? merlyn leroy says: this analogy is not good; for example, there are plenty of people who "know" god as well as you do, but don't agree on things like: 1) how many children he/she has 2) whether he/she approves of polygamy 3) whether mohammed was one of his/her prophets now, if you and all these other people who absolutely know what god is like can't agree on basic attributes like these, at least one of you who "knows" what this god-thing is like must be wrong; therefore, subjective certainty is worthless regarding knowledge of this god. on the other hand, i don't know any large groups of people who claim absolute knowledge of my mother and who disagree about her basic attributes. this is the difference between real people and imaginary friends. meryln, therefore by your logic, since your people disagree about the characteristics of your mother, you mother must be imaginary. 
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 |> anyway, i've often wondered what business followers of christ would have |> with weapons. |> peter m. yadlowsky | wake! the sky is light! |> academic computing center | let us to the net again... |> university of virginia | companion keyboard. |> pmy@virginia.edu | - after basho imo, a christian has no need of weapons. i know it is very contrary to the american nra ethos of the right to bear arms, but christians should rely on the strength of god to protect them. note that i say *should*. we are inherently insecure but i feel that that is not proper justification to be armed to the teeth. a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself. a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence. for instance, i have the faith that god will protect me but god also gave me the intelligence to know not to go walking down that dark alley at night. to jump off a cliff and say that god will save me would be putting god to the test. and who are we to test god? god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried. (which says nothing about the seems to be, barring evidence to the contrary, that koresh was simply another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of folks with him, children and all, to satisfy his delusional mania. jim jones, circa 1993. in the mean time, we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption. are you surprised things have gotten that rotten? nope - fruitcakes like koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption for centuries. the old frog's almanac - a salute to that old frog hisse'f, ryugen fisher (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) sco xenix 2.3.2 gt ladysmith, british columbia, canada. serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail - home to the holocaust almanac 
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 and i maintain: some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters, because they fear it; they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms. and so, by their own choice, they will remain in darkness, sort of like bugs under a rock. however, some people, but not many, will not like the darkness. sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable. these people will crawl out from under the rock, and, although blinded at first, will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warmth. and, after a while, now that they can see things for what they really are, they will also see the heights which they can reach, and the places they can go, and they will learn to choose their own paths through the world, and they will learn from their mistakes and revel in their are you your own master? do you have any habits that you cannot break? for one, you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the bible. seems that ignorance has you mastered. how about sexual sins? gotta any of those secret desires in your head that you harbor but can get control of? do you dehumanize women when they walk past you? do you degrade them to a sex object in your head? are you the master of that kind of thinking? do you insult people unknowingly, then regret it later. yet do it again the next time opportunity presents itself? are you truly the master of yourself? i have admitted that i am not the master of my thought life at all times. that i sometimes say things i do want to say, and then repeat my mistake unwantingly. i have admitted to myself that i cannot control every aspect of my being. there are times i know i shouldn't say something, but then say it anyway. there are times i simply forget a lesson. i, in fact, am not my own master. i need help. jesus promised me this help. and i took him up on his offer. i have willfully let jesus be my master because jesus knows what is better for me than i myself do. and why not? does not the creator know his creation better than the creation? does toyota know what's better for the corolla than the corolla? do you see my point? i think you're the one under the rock, and i'm getting a great tan out here in the sunlight. my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism -- come and join me! it will be a difficult trip at first, until you build up your muscles for the long hike, but it's well worth it! then i guess ignorance is bliss for you. because brian, you enjoy not having a clue about the bible. don't you see? i'm not going to accept anything that i can't witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses, especially not something as mega-powerful as what you're trying to get me to accept. surely if you believe in it this strongly, you must have a good *reason* to, don't you? can you witness motherly love with your senses? how does caring and concern for you register with your senses? if nothing registers to you other than what you can see, taste, smell, hear and touch, then you better become a vulcan and fast. you better get rid of your emotions. and i do have a good reason to believe what i do. when did i say that? i say that i would rather cease existing instead of being subject to the whims of a deity, but that if the deity decided to toss me into the fiery pits because of who i am, then so be it. the topic was about my god and your lack of knowledge about what my god says. my god says that you will not cease existing. you have life forever. you can choose to either live it in hell in eternal torment where there is no communication whatsoever, or can choose to live it in paradise with god. that is what my god says. and that was the issue. your made-up theism is what it is--made up. it's wishful thinking. nope -- most people are christian. most people are fond of feeling that they are imperfect, of believing that the world is an undesirable place, of reciting magical mystical prayers to make the world nice and holy again, of doing just as their priests tell them, like good little sheep. you enjoy darkness, and you're proud of it. is this the religion of kendigianism? most people are not christian. most people, including christians, are not fond of feeling that they are imperfect. is "the world an undesireable place" a doctrine of kendigianism? it has nothing to do with my god. does kendigism have magical mystical prayers as a part of its worship? mine doesn't. does kendigianism believe that the world will be holy again? mine doesn't. does kendigianism also dictate that one must obey what the priest tells them like good little sheep? mine doesn't. is this a bunch of lies you tell yourself so that you can justify being ignorant of the bible? brian, following christ has nothing to do with the doctrines of kendigianism. you would find any of your doctrines in the bible. i don't follow kendigianism. i follow christ. also, to try to again show you your ignorance of christ and the bible in regards to "priests", have you not read about the sole melchizedek priest in hebrews 7 and 8? have you not read what the purpose is of the old testament levitical priesthood and why there should not be priests today? yes, guess what? the catholics messed up. i do not follow catholicism or any "ism." i follow christ. nope. you make decisions, enjoy your successes, and accept your failures; then you die. if you are content with the life you've led as you reflect back on it in your final moments, then you've led a good life. why would you want to live a good life? to you, you die and that's it. don't contradict yourself. you have no reason to live a good life. it doesn't do you any good in the end. your life doesn't do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway. so you have no reason to lead a good life. leading a good life is meaningless. why do you do such a meaningless thing? i'm sorry, i don't feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in which case it's not really all that important. has the resurrection sunk in? jesus is alive. jesus is not dead. jesus was sacrified to fufill the old testament sacrificial system in its every detail. jesus's death was like a seed. he needed to fall to the ground so that many new lives would take root. did you miss the entire john passage as well? forget the bible for a minute. forget quoting verses, forget about who said what about this or that. *show me.* picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop, and convince me that you're right. forget that i am a person. forget that i know how to type. forget that i know how to put a sentence together. forget that i know how to send e-mail. forget my existence. proove to me that i exist. . be honest. 
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 for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i've enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used. as a christian sermon, it's pretty good, if not david koresh was born in bethlehem ehh? 
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 : i am a mormon. i believe in christ, that he is alive. he raised himself : [text deleted] : i learned that the concept of the holy trinity was never taught by jesus : christ, that it was "agreed to" by a council of clergymen long after christ : was ascended, men who had no authority to speak for him. if jesus never taught the concept of the trinity, how do you deal with the following: mat 28 18 then jesus came to them and said, "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. mat 28 19 therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in¹ the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit, mat 28 20 and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you. and surely i am with you always, to the very end of the age." also jesus speaking: act 1 5 for john baptized with¹ water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy spirit." i believe that you may have overlooked some key verses, that are crucial to the christian faith. jim burrill jburrill@boi.hp.com 
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 a question regarding the islamic view towards homosexuality came up in a discussion group that i participate in, and i'd like to ask the question here, "what is the islamic view towards homosexuality?" jim burrill jburrill@boi.hp.com 
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 in a previous article, tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (tom albrecht) says: <i learned that god loves his children who have never heard of him and has a <plan for redeeming them too, even those who have died without a knowledge <of christ. i learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on <his death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse. it <requires faith in christ proven by following him, by keeping his <commandments. such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed. so jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross. paradise and salvation are not the same thing. salvation is better. refer to john 14:2. tom albrecht ------------ john w. redelfs, cj195@cleveland.freenet.edu ------------- --------- all my opinions are tentative pending further data. --------- 
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 weiss) says: just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. you refer to differing interpretations of "create," and say that many christians may not agree. so what? that is really irrelevant. we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another, do we? the bottom line is truth, regardless of popularity of opinions. i'm sorry, i thought we were discussing heresy. i assumed that heresy meant a departure from orthodoxy, in which case generally accepted belief is indeed an important issue. in this case, the definition of the word "create" is of great importance, since creation is the issue being discussed. also, i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the mormon belief..." you can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed. in order to reply to the issue, you have to address and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant. i should have said "given the mormon belief." if you disagree with the mormon belief that creation is more a function of organization of eternally existent substance than one of ex nihilo creation, then that is the important the bible states that lucifer was created. the bible states that jesus is the creator of all. the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same. correction: you interpret the bible to mean something very specific by such terms. the mormon belief is that all are children of god. literally. there is nothing symbolic about it. this however, contradicts what the bible says. the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god: it always cracks me up when anti-mormons presume to tell mormons what they believe. mormons do, in fact, believe that all people, including christ and lucifer, are children of god in the sense that we were all created (or organized or whatever) by him. we also believe that being "offspring" of god has a symbolic sense when applied to being spiritually "born again" of him. thus the same word can be used to convey different meanings. this is how language works, robert, and it's why making someone an offender for a word is dangerous. this is really a red herring. it doesn't address any issue raised, but rather, it seeks to obfuscate. the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible, doesn't change what the bible teaches. for we first look to the bible to see what it teaches. to discount, or not even address, what the bible teaches because there are some groups that have differing views is self-defeating. to see what the bible teaches, you have to look at the bible. on the contrary, robert, it is not a red herring at all to show that those who rely wholly on the bible cannot seem to agree on what it says. you say that one must simply "look at the bible" to see what it teaches, but centuries of people doing just that have sho0wn that no one is really sure what it says. are we to believe that you are the only one who really understands the i find this rather curious. when i mentioned that the mormon belief is that jesus needed to be saved, i put forward some quotes from the late apostle, bruce mcconkie. the curious part is that no one addressed the issue of `jesus needing to be saved.' rick comes the closest with his "i have my own conclusions" to addressing the point. let me clarify this one more time. you did not refer to the mormon belief that jesus needed to be saved, but rather to mcconkie's belief in same. we keep trying to point out to you that bruce mcconkie is not the source of mormon doctrine, and you keep ignoring it. (see below) most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' i don't think that it matters if mcconkie's views were canon. that is not the issue. were mcconkie's writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue. the indication from rick is that they may certainly be. on the contrary, robert, if you are quoting mcconkie's words as mormon canon then the question of whether they are canon or not is of *great* importance. the fact is that they are not. whether or not they indicate general mormon belief would only be ascertainable by interviewing a large number of mormons. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu rick anderson librba@byuvm.bitnet 
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 : marian catholic high school, outside of chicago: : 666 south ashland avenue. actually, satanism is technically inverted catholicism. | andrew bulhak | :plonk: n. the sound of richard depew | | acb@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au | hitting the ground after being | | monash uni, clayton, | defenestrated by a posse of angry usenet | | victoria, australia | posters. | 
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 for those missing the context of this thrilling discussion between jim and i, jim wrote the following to me in e-mail after i pointed out that he (jim) had taken a quote out of context: in t.r.m. robert weiss writes [a promise from psalm 9:10] gee, since you wouldn't be at all hypocritical, you must be really busy arguing against these out-of-context extracted translations! he directed a similar accusation of hypocrisy, again based on a lack of response to an article by robert weiss, toward stephen. i pointed out that i did, in fact, agree that both robert weiss and jim meritt took quotes out of context. hence, i find it difficult to understand why jim thinks i am a hypocrite. needless to say, i don't have time to reply to *every* article on t.r.m. that takes a quote out of context. i asked jim the following: }so, according to you, jim, the only way to criticize one person for }taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a }response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context? jim replied by saying did i either ask or assert that? but today we find four articles from jim, one of which has the subject "silence is concurrence": is it not the case that, in the eyes of the law, when someone is aware of something and has the capability of taking action and does not, that individual may be held responsible for that action? which is, of course, a complete red herring. taking quotes out of context isn't a crime. i don't have time to read every article on t.r.m., and i'm certainly under no obligation to reply to them all. does "silence is concurrence" imply that jim thinks that because i didn't respond to weiss' articles i must condone weiss' taking quotes out of context? jim doesn't want to give a direct answer to this question; read what he has written and decide for yourself. but back to the context of my conversation with jim. jim's next gambit was to claim that he was using inductive logic when he concluded that i was being a hypocrite. i challenged him to provide the details of that logic that led him to an incorrect conclusion. today we find another obscure article (posting it twice didn't help make it more clear, jim), titled "inductive logic": scenario: a white goose waddles past the door a white goose waddles past the door a white goose waddles past the door ...( repeat an uncountably large number of times)... a black goose waddles past the door. an individual hits it with an axe. 1. given that the population of geese is uncountably large, and the size of the confidence interval for the decision is undetermined, under what conditions could a decision upon the behavior of the individual towards white geese be made? 2. if only black geese are observed to be axed, is it not a valid question to be concerned with the different behavior between black and white geese? more red herrings. could jim mean that he has read an uncountably large number of my articles? could jim mean that because i "axed" his articles, but not weiss' articles, he wants to conclude inductively ... well, i can't see where he is going with this. but i can help him with his induction. i've written roughly 80 articles since january. the vast majority of them are discussions with frank decenso and other inerrantists, where i take the position that they are making bad arguments. some are discussions with jim meritt where i take the position that he is making bad arguments (a straw man argument earlier, and taking quotes out of context more recently.) think hard about this jim. see the pattern? think harder. run it through your induction engine and see what pops out. 
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 i addressed most of the key issues in this very long (284 lines) post by dean kaflowitz in two posts yesterday. the first was made into the title post of a new thread, "is dean kaflowitz terminally irony-impaired?" and the second, more serious one appeared along the thread "a chaney post, and a challenge, reissued and revised" both only in talk.abortion, but i am posting its contents into talk.religion.misc as soon as i exit here. this should be enough for us to thrash out for the next week or so. the second post really grapples with the main bones of contention between us. the first is more lighthearted and tells about such things as kaflowitzdebatingpoints [tm], which he continues to rack up on both talk.abortion and talk.religion.misc, while setting follow-ups to talk.abortion alone. his lame excuse for the latter policy is that he gets a prompt as to where to set follow-ups, and does not follow talk.religion.misc much; this suggests that he is being hypocritical in not also setting his newsgroups line to talk.abortion alone. peter nyikos 
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 most of the key issues in the 284 line post to which i am following up are dealt with in the following post i made on talk.abortion yesterday, modified to correct the next to last paragraph. message-id: <nyikos.734890344@milo.math.scarolina.edu> references: <nyikos.734360987@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <nyikos.734640769@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <1993apr13.122356.3612@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> perhaps out of dedication to your convictions. i never, *never*, thought that you would be consciously intellectually dishonest, though. i am not. can you show me anything that would lead you to think see the "spreading christianity" thread, in which he says i ignore certain statements that i specifically acknowledged and dean did not. he called them "the great commission" but this is not descriptive of jesus's words in matt. 10:15. matt. 10:14, jerusalem bible translation: "and if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say, as you walk out of the house or town shake the dust from your feet." matt. 10:15: "i tell you solemnly, on the day of judgment it will not go as hard with the land of sodom and gomorrah as with that town." in the post to which dean is referring above, i said: "> the above is a good description of kaflowitz, who keeps harping on shaking the dust off the feet but ignoring what christ said next." the highlighted words refer to matt 10:14 and 10:15 respectively. and dean countered: "actually, this comment of your's is a perfect example of what an intellectually dishonest little sparrowfart you are, since i specifically acknowledged the great commission and the entreaty to spread the word. in fact, it is the combination of the two statements i was addressing, and not just the one, and for you to characterize that as "ignoring" the instruction to spread the word is a good example of what a dishonest little fellow you are." of course, matt 10:15 [quoted above] makes no mention of "instruction to spread the word." all these quotes btw are from: message-id: <1993apr13.121624.3400@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> in which, at the end, he claims i did not answer a question which i answered, and which he deleted (to get the chronology right, he deleted the answer and then said i didn't answer). and i claim it correctly, because my question went: "do you, too, measure the goodness of a post by its entertainment value, and care not a whit for such mundane things as truth and falsehood?" and the closest dean came to an answer was: "peter, peter, peter. you're just so stupid, pretentious, dull, and generally unworthy of the value you place on yourself that the sport is all there is." of course, this does not answer my question, which has to do with posts in general and not my posts in particular. surely even dean knows this, yet he brazenly asserts otherwise, reinforcing his claim with an insult: "so i now restore the answer to your question that you deleted. if you're still unable to figure it out, ask a nice kid at the local junior high to help you. it really doesn't take much sophistication to understand." on top of which, i doubt that the "answer" is at all representative of dean's true frame of mind. the insults you have seen quoted thus far are but a small sample of the stream that oozes out of dean's mind throughout the 284-line post from which these quotes were taken. one wonders whether dean's mind is so warped as to find sport in all he even dredges up a falsified account of events that transpired earlier on another thread: "you made an ass of yourself by claiming that it was in the tradition of lent to make public announcements of the "sins" of other individuals." false. i said it was the tradition to recall and atone for one's sins. that i made public announcements of the "sins" of others --"sins", btw, that were a matter of public record, documented in the posts of others-- is a different matter. many of the individuals involved are so nearly amoral that they do not see as sins what morally upright people see as sins, so i pointed some of them out. and i expressly set up a whole thread, your turn, to let people point out my sins to me. dean again: "you made an ass of yourself by saying that my statement of the tradition of tzedukkah was somehow an attempt to "paint jews as plaster saints," thereby revealing your inability to understand the discussion as well as showing your dislike for people saying positive things about jews, and now you show your intellectual dishonesty by repeatedly ignoring the simple argument being made, and then claiming i am ignoring the very argument i acknowledge." actually, what happened was that dean made it seem like any jew who gave alms or did other acts of charity in public was a hypocrite according to jewish customs. in doing so, he was caricaturing jewish customs as being almost impossibly demanding, as well as implicitly slandering all jews who make public their acts of charity. i went very easily on dean for this, giving him the benefit of the doubt in a post following my initial crack about "plaster saints", suggesting that he had been merely careless in his wording. in an astonishing act of ingratitude, dean now serves up an incredibly distorted picture of what took place between us, and using it as the basis of one insult after another. peter nyikos 
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 why don't we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people to jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away? certainly we should not use a bullwhip to drive people from jesus. but we shouldn't water down the gospel to draw people in. very well put. and, in the case of someone who calls himself a christian brother yet continues in his sin (and claims that his sin is not a sin at all, but perfectly acceptable), what should be done? should christians just ignore a sinful lifestyle in order to not offend the person? by reaffirming that the lifestyle is sinful according to the bible, are they using "a bullwhip to drive people from jesus"? frankly, i find the occurance of a homosexual christian attempting to pass himself off as a 'straight' christian in order to have other christians accept his chastisement better a *lot* more serious than people reaffirming that the bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. 
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 lewb>> lets add to those percentages 13-15% for the orphaic docterians brought lewb>>to the group by paul/saul who was a high ranking initiate. on the lewb>>development of orphaic mysteries, see jane harrisons .prolegomena to the lewb>>study of greek religion. cambridge u press 1922. and you can easly draw lewb>>your own conclusions. josh> perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument? love to,but i must do it a bit later my copy of harrison in packed, but the last chapter as best as i can rember deals with orphic mysteries and their views of women though she does not come out and say it it is strongly implyed that the christian view was drawn heavly from the orphic and other major cults of the time. i would really appreciate if when someone brought something like this up they didn't back out when someone asked for details. have a day, 
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 so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house, killing most of the people inside. we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house; it could have been the batf and fbi. we only have the government's word for it, after all, and people who started it by a no-knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers. nor, to point out the obvious, are the deluded, siege-mentality followers of a religious nut-case who thought he was jesus christ or possibly the big guy. personally, much as i regard the batf and fbi as condupes, i'll take their word over a bunch of silly pinks who were stoopid enough to lock themselves up with a goofball like "david koresh" in a makeshift arsenal. * the_doge of south st. louis * * dobbs-approved media conspirator(tm) * * "one step beyond" -- sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 fm st. louis community radio * * "you'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- j.r. "bob" dobbs" * 
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 ignorance is not bliss! ignorance is strength! help spread the truth of ignorance! huh, if ignorance is strength, then i won't distribute this piece of information if i want to follow your advice (contradiction above). sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. he was quoting big brother from orwell's 1984. 
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 if it were a sin to violate sunday no one could ever be forgiven for that for jesus never kept sunday holy. he only recognized one day of the seven as holy. jesus also recognized other holy days, like the passover. acts 15 says that no more should be layed on the gentiles than that which is necessary. the sabbath is not in the list, nor do any of the epistles instruct people to keep the 7th day, while christians were living among people who did not keep the 7th day. it looks like that would have been a problem. instead, we have scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike (romans 14:5) and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of food we eat, jewish holy days we keep, or _in regard to the sabbath. (col. 2.) question is "on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians?" i don't think that the sabbath, or any other command of the law is totally irrelevant to modern christians, but what about collosions 2, where it says that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath? why are you running away from the word of jesus? has somebody superseded the word of jesus? if you don't follow the morality of the ten commandments and the law and the prophets and the word of jesus, whose morality do you follow? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83823">
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 sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) writes... so are you happy now when 70+ people, including innocent kids, died today? it's amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other. one thing for sure: koresh will have no chance to defend himself against the statements (lacking in fact or court sponsored verification) made by agents who participated in the situation that killed him. i don't know they murdered him; i also don't know that the branch davidians set a fire and suicidede. it is sick of batf or fbi spokepeople to make such comments in advance of forensic pathology. stephen: thank you. god speed. no. kinda numb. i thought something like this was going to happen over a week ago. one of the things that's been obvious from the start is that when there are two armed camps, neither of which yields, it's usually get slaughtered -- when any little spark sets it off. which is why koresh and company shouldn't have stockpiled weapons, and why the batf shouldn't have come primed for a raid. bingo. am i the only one to notice: a) no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant. b) six months to develop a scene and six days to end it? c) .... ah god: 25 children at least 64 adults plus 6 at the beginning and more batf agents all dead. painful point #1: if the davidians fired first -- why were the batf on the roof -- rather than taking cover? has anyone asked themselves these questions: 1) have you seen the entire video sequences taken during the opening rounds? i seem to recall missing several key parts: a) the first five minutes of day one; only the shooting part comes out. b) what happened to the feds video units? you mean they do not carry helmet cams? wonder why not? 2) how is it you can have camera crews with live transmission video present and not have an uninterrupted record? a) you realize the units carry ittle bitty 8mm backups? that hold 90 minutes per unit? and there are twounits on the professional handhelds (so no tape turnover gaps)? b) until all views are seen, it is premature to point fingers in either direction. as you well point out, stephen. anyone (batf, bd, x-bd, other) could have touched it off, by mistake or maliciously? more on this below. once koresh was shot... (disregarding his being a religious leader, and apocalyptically obsessed) most likely the people inside just went on drill. just like the batf outside. is the lesson that automatic responses are very hazardous last resort yes. but it is so hard toremain human under the full pressure of hazard, game playing, and life. painful point #2: either side could have backed off, to help defuse the situation. we see the problem constantly here on the net with flaming. ego problems. nuff said. more to the point: when someone dies (almost like it was intended that way), both sides will kill to maintain their innocence -- a contradiction in terms. painful point #3: it doesn't help to take sides in such a situation. just adds fuel to the fire. better is to let it burn out on it's own. true. usually i pick the unpopular side and point out from the evidence seen what might have alternatively happened. best example i can think of is christ with the tax coin. he didn't have one (and so didn't sanction the roman authority unduly). when they showed it to him, he noted that it was caesar's minting, and so said give it to him, (no waste of time). and then he got back to more worthwhile concerns -- god's will. this requires someone interested in god's will. please note that the outstanding _overt_ problem in this country today is one where the government: wants caesar's coin to pay off the debt. the anti-tax movement of today, and the anti-ssan-as-i.d. groups, would do well to note who the issuing authority is. ditto for those yes: the american people. not the federal government. and if it is not spent towards that end, _no_one_ deserves the coin. made in the image of god. yah. fewpeople hear the contradiction: in the image of god no need to stir things up in ever larger revo-revo-revolution, as governments turn over, and over, and over. i wish you were wrong. many pundits are saying 3 years. the onyl good thing to come out of my divorce (and my exposure to the damned (pardon me) american divorce attorney is: i have no money left to lose to taxes or inflation. painful point #4: for many, this was just entertainment. thumbs-up. thumbs-down. just another thriller like "terminator 2," or a good-old ball game. is the lesson that we've become jaded to media reality? 25 children dead. if anyone thinks blaming koresh -- or the batf helps this any at all, is sick. and wrong. the reason you can tell that the batf may not be entirely straight on this is that the leaders at press conferences havew made any comments about even the possibility that koresh or his followers caused this. the batf agentss are more concerned with their repuations and morals ("not my fault, koresh did it!") than they are with: 25 dead children. same goes for koresh & his followers - who are all (mostly) dead. painful point #5: la burned. the davidians burned. in one case society has abandoned the people -- which has returned to a frontier. in the other -- the outskirts were bumping against the is the lesson that what's lawful in different areas of society, depends more on conditions than laws? more on power and favoritism. (my personal opinion). look to history: whenever privilege has replaced whatever token of objective law and justice a society has had, hitlerrs have followed. if we don't learn-the-lessons, or at least make an honest effort, the next conflagration will no doubt be closer to home. rather than putting out fires, aren't there much more important concerns for us to work on?? you do your name sake proud, stephen. its hard, but please keep on keeping on: each voice in the wilderness now will save a generation unborn from horror ....who can't 'cheers' today exactly. what keeps me from being a bomb-thrower is my loving god (as irra- tional as that is for so many). one direct benefit is being able to keep things in perspective, ks. the day i _need_ a gun or abomb to protect myself in this society is the day that society is already beyond redemption and that aint' redundant, if you have any christian belief aytall. ... and the day that i cannot peacefully enjoin others in the act that thoreau called civil disobedience to rectify the wrongs that my society practises, without undue harm or punishment befalling me, is the day that society has ceased to be a human society, and become a society of animals. we are _very_ cclose to that. such as who hurts more -- the ones who died, or the loved ones who are left? besides the lessons. it's also time for many to grieve. including those who've lost their faith in others, or in god. i'm learning to be patient, and let things heal. god willing. six years fighting an unjust court issue: still struggling to be for those who like contrary questions: nb: i was not there. i am not a branch davidian nor a law official hater. i do hate liars or the six letter variety of same. the official side has its advocates already; lets balance the equation and asj a few questions on the other side, for the sake of an old saw the batf abd fbi seem to want to bypass: innocent until proven guilty. innocent until presumed guilty. 1) where are the video tapes from the tanks? all of them. don't tell me they do not exist. they are standard 2) so you think koresh fired the place, because of the explosion? a) tear gas comes with an aerosol to spread it. this aerosol is deliberately made to be as non-flammable as possible. it is as non-flammable as possible. .... gotcha! ... when in isolation from other substances. why was a pipe deliveryu system used rather than remote launchers? why did the fbi not announce "this window, blown in plus tear gas, five minutes; then the wall come down", and maintain a left to right sequence? b) most aerosols also have a secondary compound, that when mixed in, becomes a very flammable (and difficult to trace) suspension, with a very special property: exposure to brief eruptions of high heat (muzzle blasts) or long exposure to low heat (matches, a stove) will not tend to ignite. what other chemicals come up in the forensics? who else will be allowed to test the site? c) after a few minutes to hours (ifdesired, the combnation rate can be controlled as desired), the mixture can be made to become veryignitable onb exposure to a temperature above a certain point (a tracer round) for a certain heat quantity (a small explosive charge) or for a length of time (start a wall fire and wait). check your military records; look at the tapes. why were tanks (large capacity delivey systems), tear gas (why not somnorifics?), and now (why the hurry. was there still a comm channel open to the outside?). do you see any trace of fire coming back to the compound in the videos? all the videos? which ones are missing? do i sound paranoid? maybe. am i? probably not. you trust the fbi and batf to render judgement? in advance of a court? god help us. (for we are surely not helping ourselves). you trut the federal gevernment to give us a clean slate? you are 4.3 trillion (admitted!) down and counting. look again. did it happen that way? i do not know. i was not there. and it should wait for a court to decide. but will that happen? 89 people will not have the chance to tell their side as the batf leader was, on camera. no one wins. except: more force next time. listen to your hearts, people. thanx again stephen. -- j -- | stephen roy andrew crabtree roy: red haired king andrew: the virtuous one crabtree: iron workers, ... 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83828">
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 sorry, but mormons aren't generally considered to be christians. =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= ="do you have some pumps and a purse in this shade? a perfume that whispers, = ='please come back to me'? i'm looking for something in green."-laurie morgan= sorry, but it doesn't matter what _you_ think, i am a christian, who happens to belong to the lds church. [the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints]. i don't usually read t.r.m. it is truly informative to stop by, and see that there are still people in the world like those that forced my ancestors into the deserts of utah, and then out of the country entirely. (my grandmother was born in mexico, where her family had moved to escape religious persecution in the us). i'm willing to admit that members of other churches are christians, if they believe in christ and (try to) follow his teachings, even though they have different interpretations of the bible. and yet these other churches often go out of their way to define whether or not i am considered to be christian. could someone mail me a set of rules/beliefs that must be followed to be a christian? does this set of rules exclude other large bodies of believers? i know, this is a waste of everyone's time, this has probably been discussed n times, etc. i guess i'm more sensitive to this 'demonization' after what went on in texas. don corbitt, donc@microsoft.com mail flames, post apologies. support short .sigs, three lines max. (i consider this a rebuttal, not a flame...) 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83829">
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 and i maintain: some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters, because they fear it; they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms. ... are you your own master? do you have any habits that you cannot break? if i have a habit that i really want to break, and i am willing to make whatever sacrifice i need to make to break it, then i do so. there have been bad habits of mine that i've decided to put forth the effort to break, and i've done so; there have been other bad habits that i've decided are not worth the effort to break. it's my choice, either way. i am my own master. i choose what i want to do. i weigh the benefits of my actions against their consequences, and i use my experience to help me deal with the unexpected, which in turn make me more experienced. i don't always succeed, but i never fail, either -- i learn. do *you* have any habits you can't break? why not? for one, you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the bible. i have arrived at my own understanding of christianity, just as you've probably arrived at your own understanding of islam that is most likely very different from the way a moslem thinks of his religion. are you "unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the quran"? if that's different, then how is it different from what you accuse me of? can i accuse you of having no desire to understand even the slightest concept of atheism? how about sexual sins? gotta any of those secret desires in your head that you harbor but can get control of? do you dehumanize women when they walk past you? do you degrade them to a sex object in your head? of course not. that's disgusting. for centuries, religions have been discriminating on sex and treating women as second-class humans; that's one of the reasons i renounced my christianity. do you insult people unknowingly, then regret it later. yet do it again the next time opportunity presents itself? no. i don't insult people. period. it's not in my nature, and it's not something that i want to do, either. are you truly the master of yourself? not yet -- but my life is the ground i use to practice on. the fun is in the getting there! i have admitted that i am not the master of my thought life at all times. that i sometimes say things i do want to say, and then repeat my mistake unwantingly. i have admitted to myself that i cannot control every aspect of my being. there are times i know i shouldn't say something, but then say it anyway. there are times i simply forget a lesson. i, in fact, am not my own master. we don't start out perfect; we've got to strive to be something better. i know my shortcomings, and i know my strengths, and i live my life according to the decisions i make, and i am content to abide with the consequences of my decisions as easily as i'll accept the praise for them. there have been times in my life when i've made mistakes, yes; i try to never make the same mistake twice. i need help. jesus promised me this help. and i took him up on his offer. i have willfully let jesus be my master because jesus knows what is better for me than i myself do. i regard christ as a myth. i feel that there are far too many people offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and did. the only person who can really judge me is *me*. i choose the roads i travel, and i decide whether or not i want to reach the end of any given road or turn back -- and as long as i don't *always* turn back, there's no shame in it. when i need help, i seek out my friends. do you see my point? i think you're the one under the rock, and i'm getting a great tan out here in the sunlight. my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism -- come and join me! it will be a difficult trip at first, until you build up your muscles for the long hike, but it's well worth it! then i guess ignorance is bliss for you. because brian, you enjoy not having a clue about the bible. and you don't have a clue about what i'm saying, either. open your eyes and see; open your ears and listen. i'm not just spouting off empty words. this is my life, this is what gives me meaning. don't you see? i'm not going to accept anything that i can't witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses, especially not something as mega-powerful as what you're trying to get me to accept. surely if you believe in it this strongly, you must have a good *reason* to, don't you? can you witness motherly love with your senses? how does caring and concern for you register with your senses? if nothing registers to you other than what you can see, taste, smell, hear and touch, then you better become a vulcan and fast. you better get rid of your emotions. huh? you're going way off the track here. i say my mother loves me. how do i know, you ask? i can point to definite things she's done for me, and i can even just bring her to you so you can ask her, face-to-face. you say your deity loves you. how do you know, i ask? you can't even convince me that it exists! my god says that you will not cease existing. you have life forever. you can choose to either live it in hell in eternal torment where there is no communication whatsoever, or can choose to live it in paradise with god. that is what my god says. and that was the issue. your made-up theism is what it is--made up. it's wishful thinking. if any god dangles 'heaven' before me like a carrot, promising untold pleasures to me if i'll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my rationality for just this once, then i would choose 'hell'. i can *not* lie to myself to placate another being, no matter how powerful it is. note also that there are several gods trying to lure me this way: yahweh, allah, zeus, odin, ra... please give me a solid reason to choose one of them over the others. [ description of kendigism deleted -- hee hee! ] why would you want to live a good life? to you, you die and that's it. don't contradict yourself. you have no reason to live a good life. it doesn't do you any good in the end. your life doesn't do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway. so you have no reason to lead a good life. leading a good life is meaningless. why do you do such a meaningless thing? that paragraph demonstrates that you haven't listened to a single word i've said. have you ever gone to an amusement park? why? i mean, after a few hours, it closes, and nothing's different except that you're a few dollars lighter. going to the amusement park doesn't do you any good at all. why do you do such a meaningless thing? the answer is that you think it's fun. you play the skee-ball over and over because you'd like to get better at it, even though you're not going to win anything better than a stuffed animal even if you blow ten dollars on it. you ride the roller coaster because it's an thrilling experience, even though (because?) it scares the dickens out of you. in the same way, i think life is fun. and i don't intend to leave the amusement park of life until they close down for the night! :-d i'm sorry, i don't feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in which case it's not really all that important. has the resurrection sunk in? jesus is alive. jesus is not dead. so you (and your holy book) say. by the same token, therefore, santa claus delivers toys every xmas. don't you see? i have no reason to believe that what you say is true. please give me some reason that i can't similarly apply to santa claus. forget the bible for a minute. forget quoting verses, forget about who said what about this or that. *show me.* picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop, and convince me that you're right. forget that i am a person. forget that i know how to type. forget that i know how to put a sentence together. forget that i know how to send e-mail. forget my existence. proove to me that i exist. . i can't do it, because your existence means nothing more to me than just your communications over the net. you have no more bearing on nor importance in my life than that; remove it, and you will cease to be significant to me. are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a collection of verses in a book, and cannot be supported without invoking them? or do you mean that the existence of your deity (and, in fact, any other deity that can be written about) is as real as your own why do you believe what you believe? _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83835">
<answer instance="talk.religion.misc83835" senseid="talk.religion.misc"/>
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 and he went out to meet asa, and said unto him, hear ye me, asa, and all judah and benjamin; the lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you. 2 chronicles 15:2 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83841">
<answer instance="talk.religion.misc83841" senseid="talk.religion.misc"/>
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 kermit tensmeyer quoted from a few sources and then wrote something. i will attempt to construct a facsimile of what was previously said, and then address kermit's offering. john redelfs originally wrote... jr> i learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his jr> death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse. it jr> requires faith in christ proven by following him, by keeping his jr> commandments. such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed. tom albrecht responded... ta> so jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross. john redelfs wrote back that... jr> paradise and salvation are not the same thing. salvation is better. jr> refer to john 14:2. i responded to john that... rw> i don't see the effort to equate salvation with paradise. rw> rw> rather, i see implied the fact that only those who are saved rw> may enter paradise. to which kermit wrote... kt> incomplete reference: kt> kt> see also the discussion: did jesus go into hell in the biblestudy group kt> for the arguments that paradise and hell(sheol) are places after death kt> the discussion (no lds were involved as far as i could see) argued using kt> standard christian argument from the bible that pretty much support the kt> lds position. kt> kt> christ went to paridise after his death and burial. kt> kt> he taught the prisoners and freed them from darkness. kt> kt> when he was resurrected, he had not yet ascended to his father. kt> kt> the arguement centered around what was or wasn't the proper biblical kt> terms for those places. i respond. the question that was raised was not if jesus went to infernal paradise before entering into heaven. no one has made a point for or against that issue, nor have they compared the lds position against orthodox belief. the infernal paradise is held to be abraham's bosom (luke 16), the place of the righteous dead in sheol (equivalent to hades). the point that was raised by john was that someone could not repent on their death bed. tom albrecht pointed to a biblical example that was contradictory to what john's position put forward. the thief on the cross was promised by christ to be with him in paradise, the abode of the righteous dead. john's position possibly needs to be reworked. kermit needs to address the topic at hand. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83842">
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 do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not? the bd's contradicted scripture in their actions. they were not christian. simple as that. perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed. ask any true-believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd's. even the 7th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult, which was what they were. well, if they were satanists, or followers of an obscure religion, then i would be sure that christians would in unison condemn and make this to a show case. but when we are dealing with a fanatical revelation preacher that kills ultimately everyone, including the innocent children, then it seems that we are dealing with christians and christians (note the spelling). do you judge all muslims by the acts committed by saddam hussein, a supposedly devout muslim? i don't. saddam is just a dictator using the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends. and does not this show the dangers with religion -- in order word a mind virus that will make mothers capable of letting their small children burn to ashes while they scream? sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83843">
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 so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house, killing most of the people inside. we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house; it could have been the batf and fbi. we only have the government's word for it, after all, and people who started it by a no-knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers. well, looking at the videos it seems that this fire started in various places at the same time, which would indicate that this was a planned action. i'm sure fbi and batf didn't *deliberately* start a possible fire, having a sniper kill korresh would have been a far easier method. looking at the careful operation, and use of tear gas that as i know don't start fires, it is less likely that this was the case. sorry, but my bets are on fanatical people keen to start armageddon -- theirs. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83844">
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 so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house, killing most of the people inside. we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house; it could have been the batf and fbi. we only have the government's word for it, after all, and people who started it by a no-knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers. there's another point to be made. those who have been inside burning houses know that if they want to stay alive, it's better to run out from the building. we had one case where an fbi agent *had to drag out a women* from the burning house, she run back in when she saw the forces arriving. it is a good indication of the fanatical mind that the followers had -- including having they children burned instead of saving these innocent victims of the instance. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83845">
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 i understand and sympathize with your pain. what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy. don't take it out on us christians though. the branch davidians were not an organized religion. they were a cult led by a ego-maniac cult leader. the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man, the lord of lords and king of kings, jesus christ. btw, david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed. the interesting notion is that (i watched tv tonight) koresh never claimed officially to be jesus christ. his believers hoped that he would be, but he never took this standpoint himself. he was more interested in breaking the seven seals of revelation, and make sure that armageddon would start. well it did, and 19 children died, and no god saved them. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83846">
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 tional as that is for so many). one direct benefit is being able to keep things in perspective, ks. such as who hurts more -- the ones who died, or the loved ones who are left? besides the lessons. it's also time for many to grieve. including those who've lost their faith in others, or in god. i'm learning to be patient, and let things heal. god willing. christians through ages have had to learn to be patient. i do think it's time to face the reality. the events during the last 52 two days showed what the world is really like. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83847">
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 they are considered different and largely unrelated by a number of sources. i've seen documentation which links them through the figure of h. spencer lewis. lewis was apparently involved with reuss, who was the o.h.o. of ordo templi orientis for many years. apparently it is also true that lewis had a charter to form an o.t.o. body and then created a.m.o.r.c. (as a subsidiary? an interesting question). if anyone is interested in the history of amorc, i do think spencer lewis published books about the beginning and his mission. the alexandria bookstore (that's the name of the book store operated by amorc) should have a selection that should provide the interested reader more insight). sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 droplet vol 1, no 11, part 3 d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur'an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi, the risale-i noor vol 1, no 11, part 3 nineteenth letter mu'jizat-i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammed saw, part 3 (continued from droplet vol 1, no 11, part 2) third sign: the miracles of muhammad (saw) are extremely varied. because his messengership is universal, he has been distinguished by miracles that relate to almost all species of creation. just as the supreme aide of a renowned ruler, arriving with many gifts in a city where various people live, will be welcomed by a representative of each people who acclaims him and bids him welcome in his own language so, too, when the supreme messenger of the monarch of pre- and post-eternity (ezel and ebed sultani) honored the universe by coming as an envoy to the inhabitants of the earth, and brought with him the light of truth and spiritual gifts sent by the creator of the universe and derived from the realities of the whole universe, each species of creation -from water, rocks, trees, animals and human beings to the moon, sun and stars- welcomed him and acclaimed his prophethood, each in its own language, and each bearing one of his miracles. now it would require a voluminous work to mention all his miracles. as the punctilious scholars have written many volumes concerning the proofs of his prophethood, here we will briefly point out only the general category into which fall fhe miracles that are definite and accepted as accurate reports. the evidences of the prophethood of muhammad (saw) fall into two main categories: the first is called irhasat and includes the paranormal events that happened at the time of his birth, or before his declaration of prophethood. the second group pertains to all the remaining evidences of the prophethood, and contains two subdivisions: 1) those wonders that were manifested after his departure from this world in order to confirm his prophethood, and 2) those that he exhibited during the era of his prophethood. the latter has also two parts: 2.1) the evidences of his prophethood that became manifest in his own personality, his inner and outer being, his moral conduct and perfection, and 2.2) the miracles that: related to substantial matters. the last part again has two branches: 2.2.1) those concerning the qur'an and spirituality, and 2.2.2) those relating to matter and creation. this last branch is again divided into two categories: 2.2.2.1) the first involves the paranormal happenings that occured during his mission either to break the stubbornness of the unbelievers, or to augment the faith of the belivers. this category has twenty different sorts, such as the splitting of the moon, the flowing of water from the fingers, the satisfying of large numbers with a little food, and the speaking of trees, rocks and animals each of these sons has also many instances, and thus has, in meaning, the strength of confirmation by 2.2.2.2) as for the second category, this includes events lying in the future that occured as he had predicted upon allah (swt)'s instructions. now starting from the last category, we will summarize a list of them.(1) (1) unfonunately, i could not write as i had intended without choice, i wrote as my head dictated, and i could not completely conform to the order of this classification. to be continued allah willing. irfan alan, a servant of islam. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83849">
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 |> in article <c5muiw.aqc@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> |> >question is "on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the |> >fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians?" please i don't believe most christians believe they are *above* the law. however, we are not saved by adherence to the law. the law exists to tell us what is sinful. we all sin. hence we are "all" above the law where "all" in this case refers to jews believe that their sins are atoned for with blood sacrifice of animals as described in the old testament. when was the last time you heard about a jewish animal sacrifice? believe that their sins are atoned for by the blood sacrifice of jesus. the blood sacrifice of an innocent man? this does not make the law 'irrelevant'. then why don't christians follow it, why don't they even follow their own ten commandments? breaking the law *is* sinful, and we are to avoid sinful ways, but sinning, by itself, does not jeopardize so, in short; hitler is in heaven and gandhi is in hell? note that i'm not a theologian. but this is the gist of several sermons i've heard lately and some bible studies i've been through. did you ever wonder if someone, perhaps a great deceiver, was pulling your leg? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83852">
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 i recall reading in michael (?) rutherford's novel "sarum" a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull. he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding. they then fatally stab the bull, which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood. this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult. i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult? i don't know where rutherford got his information for this chapter. the book is historical fiction, and most of the general events which take place are largely based on historical accounts. there is a rite like this described in joseph campbell's _occidental_mythology_. he also described levels of initiation, i think 6? i don't know where campbell got his info, but i remember thinking he was being a little eclectic. i also wonder what if any connection there is between the ancient bull cults and the current practice of bullfighting popular in some mediterranean cultures. quite a bit. if you haven't read campbell, give him a try. -- larry caldwell caldwell@ohsu.edu compuserve 72210,2273 oregon health sciences university. (503) 494-2232 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83855">
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 so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house, killing most of the people inside. i'm not that annoyed about the adults, they knew supposedly what they were doing, and it's their own actions. what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside, including mothers, let the children suffer and die during awful if this is considered religious following to the end, i'm proud that i don't follow such fanatical and non-compassionate religions. you might want to die for whatever purpose, but please spare the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all. i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion. christians, do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83856">
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 it is true what you stated above: jesus' saving grace is available to everyone, not just jews. in other words, everyone can have salvation but not everyone will. this option is now open to people other than just jews. of course, if the jews don't accept the deity of christ, i would hardly expect them to accept anything that christ said. but i don't feel any animosity towards them. even though they persecuted jesus and his disciples and eventually crucified him, i bear them no ill will. if anything, i feel pity for them. jesus had to die to pay the price for our sins and so the jews were merely fulfilling prophesy. jesus knew he had to die even before he began his ministry. that demonstrates the great depth of his love for us. jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the children who died today at the davidian complex. sorry, but the events today made me even more negative concering organized religion. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83860">
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 sunlight shining off of the ocean. aleph null bottles of beer on the wall, aleph null bottles of beer! take one down, pass it around ... aleph null bottles of beer on the wall! 
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 in <1qid8s$ik0@agate.berkeley.edu> dzkriz@ocf.berkeley.edu (dennis kriz) i recently have become aware that my health insurance includes coverage for abortion. i strongly oppose abortion for reasons of conscience. it disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums may be being used to pay for that which i sincerely believe is murder. i would like to request that i be exempted from abortion coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly. i share dennis's outrage over a similar manner. i have recently become aware that my health insurance includes coverage for illness and injuries suffered by christians. it disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums may be used to pay for that which i sincerely believe is divine punishment for their sinful conduct. in addition these folks are able to avail themselves of such alternative therapies as lourdes, fatima, morris cerullo, benny hinn, etc. in any case as "jesus saves' i feel that there is no reason for them to be covering their bets at my expense. i would like to request that i be exempted from christian coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly. jack carroll 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83885">
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 i responded to jim's other articles today, but i see that i neglected to respond to this one. i wouldn't want him to think me a hypocrite for not responding to *every* stupid article on t.r.m. from my handy dictionary: [dictionary definitions of "not" "disagree" and "agree" deleted] please operationally differentiate between "not disagree" and "agree". oh, but i'm weary of trying to wade through jim's repertoire of red herrings and smoke screens. let's see what we get when we run all four articles posted by jim today through the 'discord' filter (a markov chain program that steve lamont was kind enough to send me): taking action? a white geese be held as an accomplice to be held as a decision upon the door a black and white goose waddles past the eyes of the door. hits it with the confidence interval for that individual is held responsible for that, that individual may be held as a getaway car may be held as an uncountably large number of the driver of something and agree. a black goose waddles past the person imprisoned? white goose waddles past the confidence interval for the population of geese be axed, and white goose waddles past the door. does running jim's articles through 'discord' make them more coherent? less coherent? or has 'discord' turned jim's articles into an angst-ridden poem about making choices in a world filled with uncertainty, yet being held responsible for the choices we make? do the geese symbolize an inner frustration with ambiguity, a desire that everything be black and white, with no shades of gray? does the "getaway car" tell us that to try to renounce the existential nature of our being is not to "get away" from responsibility for our actions, but rather to take the role of the passive accomplice, the "driver" of the getaway car, as it were? does the juxtaposition of man and machine, car and driver, reveal a subtext: an internal conflict between determinism and moral responsibility? or am i reading too much into a collaboration between jim and a random number generator? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83891">
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 i am surprised and saddened. i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born-again gospel-thumping in-your-face we're- the-only-true-christian protestants, but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this. please do not stoop to the level of the e b-a g-t i-y-f w-t-o-t-c protestants, who think that the best way to witness is to be strident, intrusive, loud, insulting and overbearingly self-righteous. (pleading mode on) please! i'm begging you! quit confusing religious groups, and stop making generalizations! i'm a protestant! i'm an evangelical! i don't believe that my way is the only way! i'm not a "creation scientist"! i don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails! if you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling out (and making obtuse generalizations about) fundamentalists. if you compared the actions of presbyterians or methodists with those of southern baptists, you would think that they were different religions! please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the same, so please don't write off all protestants or all evangelicals! (pleading mode off.) god.......i wish i could get ahold of all the thomas stories...... "fbzr enval jvagre fhaqnlf jura gurer'f n yvggyr oberqbz, lbh fubhyq nyjnlf pneel n tha. abg gb fubbg lbhefrys, ohg gb xabj rknpgyl gung lbh'er nyjnlf znxvat n pubvpr." --yvan jregzhyyre jemaleddin sasha david cole iv - chief of knobbery research dlphknob@camelot.bradley.edu 
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 gordon banks quoted and added... gb> in article <c50m5p.eoz@acsu.buffalo.edu> gb> gb> > gb> > christians have professed for more than 1660 years the nicene gb> >creed, a statement of beliefs drawn from the truths of scripture gb> >that was officially accepted by a council of church bishops gb> >and leaders at nicea in 325 a.d. christians still recite gb> >this creed regularly in public worship. gb> > gb> gb> so prior to 325 ad there were no christians? or all of them really gb> believed the nicean creed even before it was formulated? do you gb> really believe such an absurdity? i'm afraid you do. i really don't. honest. the nicene creed, as i mentioned above, is a brief statement of beliefs that are derived from scripture. that this certain list did not exist earlier does not indicate that the beliefs summarized in in did not exist before the formula was derived. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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 hi all, i'm going to try to do something here, that perhaps many would not have thought even possible. i want to begin the process of initiating a literary critical study of the pornography posted on alt.sex.stories, to identify the major themes and motifs present in the stories posted there -- opening up then the possibility of an objective moral evaluation of the material present there. first off, let me congratulate you for not posting a flame about "you sick perverts, you are immoral, you are all going to hell.", which seems to be the usual "religious" post found on the alt.sex.* hierarchy. hopefully, you won't get flamed, either. you will, however, be argued with. i personally think that your project is built on unsteady ground. first, i do not believe that there is any way to find an "objective morality". morality and value are inherently subjective - they represent the beliefs of a person or a group of people. they can be widely held, perhaps even overwhelmingly held, but they are never and _can_ never be objective. assumptions: (1) a christian bedrock assumption that all that is true, comes truly from god. (2) regarding alt.sex.stories. while perhaps even from an objective standpoint, the majority of its material is indeed repugnant (you come to this conclusion quite quickly when you start thinking about analyzing its material like this), some of it reflects some fairly profound needs in people as well as some truths -- and deserve to be pointed out. second, i do not accept the assumptions that you make here. if, as you say, you are trying to be objective, then why accept a morality to begin with by using the christian bible? you're defeating your own purpose by doing so. in the long run, the advantage of making such a literary/moral analysis is that it will save band-width between christians and non mutually flaming each other about the moral acceptability of the stuff on these (pornographic) groups. third, call me a pessimist, but you won't stop the flamage. there will always be people who pop upin alt.sex.* to tell us how sick and twisted and evil we all are. just out of curiosity, do alt.sex readers show up unprovoked in the religion groups to tell you all that you are narrow-minded, censoring, overbearing totalitarianists? basically, there should not be a dissonance between a "christian" morality and a "non-christian" one. either there is value in a particular work, or there is not whether one is a christian or hm. let me provide an example. four people get together over dinner, to discuss morality: you, me, a rather conservative moslem, and a sociopath. i start off by saying that i think it's immoral to force people to have sex with you. you agree, but also say that it is immoral to have sex with someone of your own gender. (just a note: i really don't know your views on homosexuality, i am just using this as a common view of morality for the purposes of this example.) the moslem says that it is immoral for women to have their faces uncovered. the sociopath, who has become bored, kills all three of us and eats us, but feels no guilt because he has done nothing wrong morally in his own mind. in support for the first assumption: the christian scriptures say this: (evidence deleted) i'm not going to accept your evidence for this. you ask us to accept "the word of god" that everything good comes from god. this is only a valid argument for a person who shares your beliefs. still, i must say that cataloging the major themes and motifs in erotica could be interesting for other reasons than yours, so good luck with this next part. now then what are some of the major themes/motifs in the pornographic literature on places like alt.sex.stories? these are some that i've been able to identify. please add/comment on motif #1 -- the male-cinderella. in so many of the stories there is expressed a feeling of alienation and worthlessness on the part of the writer or otherwise protagonist of the story with regard to the object (the other person) of his/her desire. often a story involves a protagonist who (on the surface) is quite average (but underneath usually has an enormous dick), who desires to in some way to gain access (in a definitely sexual way) to the other person who he/she confesses is far more desireable than he/she is and who indeed seems "to walk between the rain-drops." hmmm...do i detect just a wee bit of condescence here? motif #2 -- a celebration of (indeed preoccupation with) beauty. not very objective. the vast majority of pornographic literature deals with beauty, be it innocence (somehow about to be lost), grace, or simply physical beauty. and generally, most people christian or non will say that beauty is good. one could construe this to mean that beautiful people are better, or "more good" than non-beautiful people. i would hope that people relize that this is not necessarily true. motif #3 -- one's dick is one's instrument of redemption. might i suggest the word "penis"? it seems more in line with the tone of your post. blessed are those who are well-hung, for they shall get laid. -- from what would thus be a revised matthew 5 :-). bravo! i respect you and your sense of humor, sir. motif #4 -- sex as an expression of sincere giving. there is, often enough, a clear desire on the part of the protagonist, to give (definitely sexual) pleasure to the object (person) of his/her desires. yes, and this theme is usually what the better stories are about. however, they are not always selfish - i could point to examples in the work of elf sternberg, for example. motif #5 -- alt.sex.stories describes a sex which is completely removed from the realm of "transmitting life" so removed is sex from its procreative dimension on alt.sex.stories, that one begins to wonder why sex even involves ejaculation, as in the context described in pornography it serves then no real purpose. it serves the same purpose as it does in pornographic movies: it affirms the virility of the male involved, as well as assuring the reader that he (the character) has orgasmed. the whole picture [tm] is probably very well described by the catholic teaching on this: of the husband and wife, in an act of total mutual self-giving in the sexual union, cooperating with god in opening themselves up for the transmission of new life (cf. humane vitae). your whole picture [tm] unfortunately only applies to people who accept your in addition, if sex is for procreation, then 1) why did god make it pleasurable, so that people would want to do it, rather than building it in as instinct? 2) why did god make it fallible? not every sexual encounter results in pregnancy, even among catholics. does this mean that they have sinned? in any case alt.sex.stories and the catholic teaching will probably not see eye to eye on this for a long time. motif #6 -- sex used as an instrument violence, power and why pornography seems to tend in that direction, i really do not know. probably volumes could be written on the relationships between sex and power/humiliation. but this probably gives good reason why traditionally judeo-christianity has been so negative with regard to sexuality -- it seems to tend to a great moral pornography would not tend in those directions if there were not a demand for it. many people have violent fantasies that they would never act out in real life, but will think about and read about and mull over. jeffj@yang.earlham.edu - official generic .sig. under 4 lines, under 80 columns, no amiga checks, no witty quotes, no maps of australia, no asterisks, no ascii art, no disclaimers or anti-flame requests, and one spelling errer. 
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 sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) writes... these laws written for the israelites... remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile alike. jews won't agree with you, malcolm. which jews ks? (ex. as a people, as a language, religiously, politically, or...) do you mean those jews who are god's chosen? {and malcolm, please, if you will, set your word wrap at 75 or less to avoid clutter?} -- j -- | stephen 
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 |> in article <1993apr15.200231.10206@ra.royalroads.ca>, |> > these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had |> > expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a |> > direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god |> > is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. |> > remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to |> > god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the |> > age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is |> > repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just |> > for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile |> > alike. |> jews won't agree with you, malcolm. |> cheers, |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. a lot of people won't agree with me. that's their right and i respect that. however, to the point, jews are also covered by the saving grace of jesus christ. there are jews who have become christians. this brings up another question i still have to ponder: why is there so much anti-semitism? why do people hate jews? i don't hate jews. i consider them to be like anyone else, sinners we all are. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83901">
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 the nicene creed we believe in one god the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. and in one lord jesus christ, the only-begotten son of god, begotten of the father before all worlds, god of god, light of light, very god of very god, begotten not made, being of one substance with the father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnate by the holy spirit of the virgin mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under pontius pilate. he suffered and was buried, and the third day rose again according to the scriptur es, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the father. and he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. and we believe in the holy spirit, the lord and giver of life, who proceedeth from the father and the son, who with the father and the son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. and we believe in one holy and apostolic church. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. amen. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc83902">
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 well, the whole *point* of making these the "base" commandments is that they *aren't* reducible to rules. a set of rules is a moral code or a law code or an algorithm for acting. such things can be very helpful to individuals or societies -- but not if they are used *instead* of a personal involvement in and responsibility for one's actions. ... the two commandments *are* rules; they are merely rules that are so vague that they are practically devoid of meaning. michael siemon acknowledges this every time he writes that the resolution of an argument over them turns on secular and cultural assumptions that are independent of these rules. ... the great commandment is, more than anything else, a call to act *as if you were god and accepting ultimate responsibility* in your every action. ... the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself can be viewed, in part, as reminding man that he is not god and cannot act as if he has "ultimate responsibility." indeed, many traditions present an interpretation where believers are supposed to interpret loving one's neighbor as following various other rules, and relying on their god to make things come out right, precisely because it would be wrong for man to assume such "ultimate responsibility." once again, we are confronted with good sounding goo that means whatever the reader wants it to mean. ... "conservatives" may twist this "act as if you were god" to mean "lay down rules for other people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don't keep your rules." they are so insistent (and obvious) about this that they have convinced a lot of people (who rightly reject the whole concept!) that such idiocy is how god acts. ... and who is to say that this interpretation is "twisted"? there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way. michael cannot refer to "base" claims or base commandments to show that such readings are "twisted," because this divergence in understanding occurs even in trying to interpret the "base" claims and commandments. in addressing conservative christians, michael will necessarily draw upon secular and cultural notions that these conservative christians will reject. but why should anyone be looking for an ethical system, since our society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do? it may be that we need a principle for the critique of ethical systems -- in which case i will profer the _agapate allelou_ once again. but these base commandments are too vague to serve as "a principle for the critique of ethical systems." the meaning of these base commandments for any believer derives from the secular and cultural notions that the believer brings to them, from how the believer mixes their demands with straightforward readings of other biblical passages, from a particular sectarian tradition, or from some combination of these things. these commandments lack sufficient substance in themself to serve as a basis for criticizing ethical systems. what meaning they have comes from the ethical system the believer brings to these commandments. and different bodies of christians have, from the beginning, urged *different* "ethical systems" (or in some cases, none). as a result, it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems, however popular (or infamous) with christianity. christianity does not have a torah. it does not have a qu'ran. specifically christian scripture has very little, if anything, in the way of "commandments" -- so little that the "christians" who desperately *want* commandments go "mining" for them with almost no support ... the one, single, thing in the gospels which jesus specifically "gives" as "a commandment" to us is "love one another." jesus explicitly states that this summarizes jewish law, which would seem to bring in all of it if we properly understand what it means to love god and love our neighbors. there are *many* parables and teachings the gospels attribute to jesus that are straightforwardly read as ethical commandments. the pauline epistles are similarly full. if it is not clear that these all come together in a sensible understanding of ethical behavior, the problem is *not* a lack of raw material. i am a "radical" christian *only* in that i take the gospel seriously. no, michael, the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously. what differentiates you is the way you interpret the ... why don't i and the (myriads of) other christians like me tell you something about christianity? ... in a sense, the wide variety of interpretations does tell us something about christianity. it tells us that the new testament authors left a sufficiently vague hodge-podge that it can serve as the source text for many, vastly different beliefs about the nature of the christian god and about what men should and shouldn't do. the irony here is that there is *nothing* in christianity per se that michael can use to support the cause of lesbians and gays. *every* christian principle he turns to this cause is effective only through the extra-christian principles through which michael interprets his religion, and the homophobes apply the *same* christian principles, with equal justification, to their cause. in short, it is the extra-christian principles that make michael's christianity beneficial, and i suspect they would be as beneficial, perhaps moreso, without being filtered by christian interpretation. michael paints a picture of "standard american atheism" as the rejection of the evil in many conservative christian interpretations of the bible. but i think it is even more damaging to christianity to note that the new testament presents such a vague hodge-podge of notions about the nature of god and the nature of the good (except, of course, when it is ordered by an interpretation that relies on extraneous principles). here, i think we should apply a christian parable, where a cold drink can have its value and a hot drink can have its value, but the lukewarm we should spit out. 
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 armed to the teeth. a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself. a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence. faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at night with a knife to kill me for the $2 in my wallet, a .357 is considerably more persuasive than having devotions with him. tom albrecht 
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 here is someones "biblical" claim for the characteristics of satan: this is probably the portion of scripture that you were talking about, isaiah 14:12-15. this does speak of the "morning star" which, according to you is the babylonian prince. ok, so i turn your attention to daniel 10:12-14. this passage concerns a revelation of prophecy to daniel by the messenger from god. within this passage, the messenger from god speaks of how he fought for 3 weeks against the prince of the persian kingdom. obviously, this prince was not an earthly prince. this prince of the persian kingdom is probably one of the demons in satan's hierarchy. as such, the morning star can be the prince of babylon w ho can also be satan. another passage concerning satan's fall from heaven is ezekiel 28:12-19. and separately: devil chose to try to become greater than god. he wanted to sit on god's throne. when the devil was created, he was one of the most beautiful angels in heaven. we have here three distinct claims concerning the results of the devil's decision making, a specific desire, and a physical description. now, in support (aside from the minor detail that an author seldom writes an unbiased account of the opposition) we see: isaiah 14:12-15 isa 14:12 how art thou fallen from heaven, o lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! isa 14:13 for thou hast said in thine heart, i will ascend into heaven, i will exalt my throne above the stars of god: i will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: isa 14:14 i will ascend above the heights of the clouds; i will be like the most high. isa 14:15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. doesn't say sits on god's throne. says will exhault throne above the stars. daniel 10:12-14 dan 10:12 then said he unto me, fear not, daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy god, thy words were heard, and i am come for thy words. dan 10:13 but the prince of the kingdom of persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and i remained there with the kings of persia. dan 10:14 now i am come to make thee understand what shall be- fall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. see who is being discussed? ezekiel 28:12-19 eze 28:12 son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the lord god; thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. eze 28:13 thou hast been in eden the garden of god; every pre- cious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the dia- mond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the em- erald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy ta- brets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. eze 28:14 thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and i have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of god; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. eze 28:15 thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. eze 28:16 by the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore i will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of god: and i will destroy thee, o covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. eze 28:17 thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: i will cast thee to the ground, i will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. eze 28:18 thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will i bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. eze 28:19 all they that know thee among the people shall be as- tonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. anyone else to make a claim about the characteristics of the devil? 
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 can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon. please email the internet address if possible. william h. moore advanced decision systems, division of booz, allen & hamilton software engineer 1500 plymouth street net: wmoore@ads.com mountain view, ca 94043-1230 (415) 960-7553 
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 newsgroups: talk.religion.misc summary: followup-to: distribution: usa organization: advanced decision systems, mtn. view, ca (415) 960-7300 can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon. please email the internet address if possible. william h. moore advanced decision systems, division of booz, allen & hamilton software engineer 1500 plymouth street net: wmoore@ads.com mountain view, ca 94043-1230 (415) 960-7553 
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 anyway, i don't have anything against amorc, i just wanted to point out that secret organizations are lead by human beings, and we all know what that means. i had an ehum, interesting experience with the rosicrucians, or at least rosicrucians of some sort last sunday. they had advertised that they were holding a lecture titled the graal of the king -- the room of the heart (which rhymes in swedish). out of curiosity, i went to the lecture. there were four people there apart from the two rosicrucians, one woman and two men apart from me. the rosicrucians were male, both of them. first one of them told us about the rosicrucians and lectorium rosicrucianum, which was founded in harlem, nl in 1925. he read straight from a piece of paper, which i at that point was because he lacked experience in talking in front of people, but the other guy read, too, and he was used to holding speeches, i could tell. the first guy also said that the r:s are a mystical christian order, and that they base their teachings on the teachings of the kathars (english?) from the thirteenth century. the other guy took over, reading from his piece of paper in a fairy-tale teller's voice. what he said sounded like a load of crap to me. of course that might be because i am unenlightened or something. what made me a bit suspicious, was the way they first said that we all contained something divine, and could find our way back to divinity, then that we couldn't become divine as the persons we are currently, but if we worked really hard we would reach eternal bliss. maybe i've read too much raw, but it sounded very much like the things he talks about in the chapter _how to robotize people and brainwash your friends_ in _prometheus rising_. it was very interesting to watch the two rosicrucians. the one holding the actual lecture, obviously was top dog, and the other one seemed to be a true believer. i got the impression that the top dog had more distance to the faith than the true believer, that he used it to gain power and admiration. he spoke like a fairy-tale teller, whenever he remembered. ;) the information brochure is at home. should you want their address, please e-mail me. --ceci =====ceci@lysator.liu.se=========================================== "...men jag tycker {nd} att emacs {r ett hyfsat os." lars willfoer (...still, i think emacs is a fairly good operating system.) 
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 and who is to say that this interpretation is "twisted"? there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way. this requires the assumption that all interpretations are equally valid, that there is no way of reasonably distinguishing among them. i wouldn't make that assumption; i don't think it is a reasonable assumption. no. it follows from the fact that most christians' choice of interpretation stems from a mix of beliefs that are influenced by the secular ethics of their culture and that are not fully determined by scripture. whether or not there is some "right" interpretation matters not; few christians claim the ability to read the mind of their god. dave davis should note that it was michael who first stated the importance of secular and cultural influence in this thread. i think michael is right in this, but regardless, it should be noted that this has *not* been a point of contention between michael and myself. i have argued -- beyond michael's claims -- that the christian scriptures are open to so many interpretations -- including a wide divergence within the christian tradition -- that even their most important themes are vague. again, it does not matter that there is some "right" interpretation *unless* there is a way to determine what that "right" interpretation is. it is the lack of an objective measure, not the presumed lack of an answer, that puts the force behind the line i argue. michael, and i, and others, read 'the bible' with christian glasses. among the things that this should imply is that the nt informs the ot, even to the point of dominanting it. some points in the ot (ceremonial & dietary laws) are explicitly abrogated by the nt texts. ... there are enough christian glasses, varying over a sufficiently broad range of color, that i can find a few that support my no, michael, the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously. what differentiates you is the way you interpret the russell turpin's 'no' here is misplaced, not to say inappropriate. michael's self-description must govern. the equation of radical = liberal, which seems implied by russell turpin is wrong. ... in my opinion, what makes michael radical is that he fully acknowledges that christian scripture and tradition fail to determine the doctrines that so many branches within christianity hold dear. he is willing to live and practice his religion within this indeterminacy, and he is willing to acknowledge that much of his understanding of things christian is influenced by ideas that are not purely christian. those christians i have called conservative must also interpret, but they do not recognize -- or at least, are unwilling to admit -- the extent and importance of this. russell turpin (in an earlier post) had said that michael (michael's theological positions, actually) didn't tell him much about christianity; dean simeon responds (this time gently): 'what do you mean?' more direct, perhaps, would have been: 'what could you possibly mean?' the implied rhetorical effort, to separate michael from the tradition, is a failure. michael is in the tradition. if your idea of the tradition doesn't include him, change your idea of the tradition! i recognize that michael is part of the tradition. but what does it tell one about a tradition covering origen, aquinas, jerry fallwell, and jesse jackson that it also includes michael siemon? not very much! ... in short, it is the extra-christian principles that make michael's christianity beneficial, and i suspect they would be as beneficial, perhaps moreso, without being filtered by christian interpretation. this conclusion does not follow, even in short, from the argument that goes before. a surprising logical ellipsis. i think the conclusion does follow. the purely christian principles that michael has are the ones he shares with others in the christian tradition or that can be derived from christian scripture. these, necessarily vague, are not enough to drive his political stances. that one should love one's neighbor is a purely christian principle. that this means showing tolerance for homosexuality is *not*. as to these political stances, they are often at odds with what is commonly held in most of current christendom, and so i suspect they could be better pressed outside it. (on the other hand, i can well understand the counterpoint, that these political stances become most influential when presented to those who need them most.) this is a theological statement worthy of barth. dr turpin (dd) may wear the black robe of geneva yet! :-) having barely survived the effort to finish in computer science, i doubt i will attempt a more difficult field any time soon! 
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 these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile sorry if this is late for the thread, but... i thought god was supposed to be constant and never-changing. how do you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above? also, while we're at it: 1. how do you reconcile "a kind and loving god!!" with the judeo-christian view that sin was at one time "immediately punishable by death"? was killing people for sinning god's way of showing kindness and love? 2. is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of having made a mistake? 3. now that we are "living in the age of grace", does this mean that for our sins, god now damns us to eternal hell after we die, rather than killing us immediately? if so, is this eternal damnation an example of "a kind and loving god!!"? just curious. --dave wood 
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 [deleted] here tis. someone just told me that the old testament books were translated into greek a long time ago yes, that's a famous version called the septuagint. it was a translation made by greek jews. and that the originals were destroyed in a fire soon afterward. i don't know what you're referring to here. when the jersusalem temple was destroyed, some manuscripts may have been lost, but i think our extant hebrew manuscripts are as good as our greek ones. i don't know about any "originals". the person who was telling me about the septuagint version said that the greeks had a wonderful library in alexandria that was full of manuscripts/scrolls and that it was burned soon after the septuagint version was translated (perhaps to conceal some changes in the different versions, or perhaps just as part of the typical burning of valuable things that occurs during changes in power groups, he/i dunno). no. the library at alexandria was perhaps the greatest library ever built in the world. the greeks had a love of wisdom, philo sophos, and this great love was reflected in the alexandrian library. the christians got a hold of it and began modifying and purging texts and then the moslems invaded and either the christians burned the library to keep it from falling into moslems hands (far more likely since they were the book burners, not the moslems), or it burned in the sack of the city or the moslems burned it. either way, a tremendous amount of information was lost. the destruction of the library of alexandria was probably one of the greatest crimes of man against man. so, i was just wondering, since i imagine some jewish people somewhere must have had copies of the earlier hebrew versions, is the hebrew version of the old testament very different from the greek derived version? no. there are a few famous discrepancies (isaiah's prophecy about a "young woman" was changed into a "virgin", which was how the new testament writers read it), but not many. actually, the hebrew almah, (young woman), was translated as the hellenistic greek parthenos which may or may not be correctly translated into the modern and technical english term virgin. the jews did not have the type of virginity cult that the greco-romans had in artemis and diana. well, perhaps this is the answer then. [deleted] if you go to a jewish bookstore, you'll get a bible translated by jews, so there will be some differences in interpretation, but the text they're translating *from* is basically the same. the standard text used by christians and jews is the masoretic text. jews of course use the text in its original hebrew, without translation. if you want to read "the original", you can buy an interlinear bible. that contains the hebrew old testament and the greek new testament, with an english translation written underneath each word. if you want a bible with a possibly-more-original basic text, you can try to find a samaritan bible. (good luck! i've never seen one.) the samaritans (no, not the good samaritans) have their own version of the 5 books of moses. they claim the jewish bible was altered by ezra. thanks for the tips. now i just have to find someone to teach me samaritan :) just me, little 'e' (so, is a "good samaritan hard to find?" or "is a hard... " oh, finish this 
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 "no church will admit that i am right except the one with which i am associated. this makes them witnesses against each other, and how can i decide in such a case as this, seeing they are all unlike the church of christ, as it existed in former days!" (p. 31). the idea of an apostacy did not originate with lucy smith or joseph smith or the mormons. the idea of a restoration was quite common in the early 19th century usa. alexander campbell, founder of the group that now survives with the name "disciples of christ" preached that the primitive church had been lost and was attempting to restore it (although not be revelations). many cambellites subsequently became mormons, including co-founder sidney rigdon. actually, you can find such sentiments in many of the early protestants of the reformation, such as martin luther. gordon banks n3jxp | "skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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 the only point i'm trying to make is that those who call themselves christian may not be christian. wow! are you serious! so not everyone who calls themself a christian is a christian? wow! that does make things a bit more complicated doesn't it? i ask that you draw your own conclusions by what they do and what they say. that seems like very good advice, given the above revelation. if they are not modelled after the example of jesus christ then they are not christian. like for example matthew 5:14-19 right? if they have not repented of their sins and accepted jesus christ as their personal lord and saviour then they are not christian. um, where did jesus say that he wanted people to worship him? these are the only criteria to being a christian. so, do you adhere to the ten commandments? 
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 human blood sacrifice! martyrdom of an innocent virgin! "nailed" to a wooden pole! what is this obsession with male menstruation? christian: washed in the blood of the lamb. mithraist: washed in the blood of the bull. if anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion, do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been reserved. please choose another animal, preferably one not on the endangered species list. how about cockroaches? ***************************** porta@wam.umd.edu **************************** what for you say you monkey when you have little fluffy tail like rabbit, rabbit! tazmanian devil 
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 ] koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns. even if what you say is true, do you think this is a reasonable way to deal with people who want "lots of illegal guns"? what makes you say that the guns were illegal?? i understand that the bd's had a valid class iii federal firearms permit, which would allow them to have pretty much anything short of a howitzer legally. tom gillman, systems programmer | "aaaaagggghhhh" wells computer center-ga. state univ. | -- any "classic" star trek security (404) 651-4503 syshtg@gsusgi2.gsu.edu | officer sometime during the show gsu doesn't care what i say on the internet, why should you? 
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 it should be remembered that all of the first reports came from the fbi, and that independent observers, i.e. the press, were not allowed to get close and see things for themselves. official communiques tend to be self-serving for the agencies that issue people in general tend to believe first reports, as these get the most and the biggest headlines. corrections are often an example is the fbi report that several of the bodies found in the rubble had bullet wounds. the local coroner, who is independent of the fbi, has so far found no bullet wounds! 
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 brian ceccarelli wrote (that's me): kent, i am not accusing you of evil things. jesus is accusing you. and it is not only you that he is accusing. he is accusing everyone. me, you and everyone in the world is guilty. whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things. we do them regardless. kent sandvik responds: hmm, it seems that this is the core of christianity then, you have to feel guilty . . . i think i see where you are coming from kent. jesus doesn't view guilt like our modern venacular colors it. "feelings" have nothing to do with guilt. feelings arise from the state of being guilty. feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive. feelings are a reaction from guilt. jesus is talking about the guilt state, not the reaction. let me give you an example: have you ever made a mistake? have you ever lied to someone? even a little white lie? have you ever claimed to know something that you really didn't know? have you ever hated someone? have you ever been selfish? are you guilty of any one of these? the answer is of course, yes. you are guilty. period. that is it what jesus is getting at. no big surprise. feelings do not even enter the picture. consider jesus's use of the word "guilt" as how a court uses it. jesus is concerned that everyone should admit that they are guilty of being imperfect. the bible calls it the state that we are all sinners. we all do bad things. even the most insignficant thing that we do wrong is proof of our guilt that we are all sinners. it is it in our nature to do bad things. we are sinners, therefore we do bad things. being a sinner is fact. it is not a pleasant fact. but it is just a fact. we are not perfect. calling us sinners should have no more emotional charge to you than calling you a human being. guilty as charged. and then there's this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling. you can handle your guilt in one of two ways: acknowledge you made a mistake, learn from it, and try to not do it again--in the meantime, not punishing yourself for it: which is the way jesus wants you to handle or it. this is the healthy way. or two, the destructive way: put yourself down, slap yourself and feel like crap, never forgive yourself, force yourself to say a thousand hail marys . . . even to suicide. this the way jesus does not want us to deal with it. all people fall into this category to some extent in their lives. jesus is not in the business of saving us from this guilt feeling. jesus is in the business of showing us how much he loves us despite our guilt. jesus knows we are guilty. that isn't new to him. it is no big deal to him. he just wants you to realize that this sinful nature destroys the relationship between you and him. that is what he wants you to know. why, because he wants to have your company. you are immensely valuable to him. jesus wants a relationship with you, however, in our present sinful nature, we are incapable of having this relationship. god is perfect. we are not. you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole. however, god has provided a way for us to change our nature so that we can have a relationship with him. god has provided jesus, so that whosoever just believes in jesus, will have their nature changed. the holy spirit will move it. and now divine nature is now within lives our very being--and us and god communicate with each through his unifying holy spirit. the benefits of this are endless. for with the divine nature living within us, we can now see our imperfections better. we can now head them off at the pass. with the power of the holy spirit living in us, we now have his power to help us overcome our shortcomings. because the divine nature lives within us, we can now understand profound bible passages that never before we could understand. because the divine nature now lives within us, we now have authority over demonic forces. and lastly, because the divine nature now lives within us, we have eternal life--for the holy spirit is eternal. the relationship with jesus is of the utmost importance. because it is not what you do in life that qualifies you to belong to heavenly kingdom, it is your relationship to the living god. remember what jesus said at the tail end of matthew when he separated the "goats from the sheep". many people in the last day will ask him, "didn't i prophesy in your name and do miracles, and do good things in your name?" and what did jesus say? "depart from me, for i never *knew* you." that is the cornerstone of christianity, kent. jesus must know you as his friend. it is your relationship to jesus. if he is your friend and you are his, you will be counted among those who will share in his inheritance in heaven. brian, i will tell you a secret, i don't feel guilty at all, i do mistakes, and i regret them, however i've never had this huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder. good. it shows that you have a strong self-image--that you love yourself. that is the second greatest commandment jesus taught. if only more people could do as you do. as i said before, in the common english venacular, "feeling guilty" has a different meaning than the state of guilt. this all is a very clear indication that you need a certain personality type in order to believe and adjust to certain religious doctrines. and if your personality type is opposite, then you are not that easily attached to a certain world view system. i believe what we all need in our personalities is a lot less ego, a lot less self-centeredness, and a lot more unconditional love. there are humans that subscribe to the same notion. the nice thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden, the shoulders feel far more relaxed! yes. you have stated what jesus said. remember? "come to me, take my yoke upon your shoulders, for my burden is light." a yoke is used to direct oxen to do work. once you have a relationship with jesus, you and him share the yoke and the burdens of life. having god at your side is of great advantage. 
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 robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying things like "it is held that..." (cf. "kermit" thread). on what exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?" who is that "holds that" luke meant what you said he meant? whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to "look at the bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who see biblical things differently from you? are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it? just curious, rick anderson librba@byuvm.bitnet 
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 [stuff about mithras deleted] oh, his b-day was 25 dec. ahem. i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time. was mithras connected with this? 
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 sometimes a god-believer will maintain that atheism is itself a religion. many postings to this group have answered that well. here's another way to answer the assertion: suppose that i don't believe that broken mirrors or black cats bring bad luck. does that mean that i have a superstition? 
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 you just don't get it, do you? in fact, i believe your religion is imaginary . . . you have clearly demonstrated that you do not even know what my religion is in order to make that assumption. please offer me an argument that's more convincing than "you just don't believe 'cos you don't want to." how i can present any argument when you put your hands over your eyes and devise new irrevelant excuses each time? the fact remains, you want to argue about something that you do not know anything about. do you not have to learn a topic first before you can reasonably debate the topic? which brings us about to the start of this thread. you began perverting bible verses, interpreting them without investigation. for if you desired to investigate, you would have changed your tune immediately. thus it is clear to me. you do not believe what i am saying because "you don't want to" check it out. everything you've said so far could apply equally to any religion why do you believe yours is the real one? then you must have also ignored every other post i have written to you. this would seem to go along with your character. brian, it doesn't offend me if you decide to reject jesus christ. i only wish you would make that decision after you learn who jesus is. 
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 : seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed : for the message he carried. (which says nothing about the : character of the messenger.) i reckon we'll have to find out : the rest the hard way. koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns. i suppose these illegal guns have been found? i suppose he was going to kill a bunch of people with them? --ray cote there's no government like no government. 
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 |> i will agree that creation should not be taught as science |> if macroevolution is not taught as science. however, if we are |> teaching the wildly speculative theories of macroevolution as |> an explanation of origins, then equal time should be given |> to creation. neither one qualifies as science. create a |> philosophy course: call it "origins". |> // bill rawlins <wpr@atlanta.dg.com> // |> // "i speak for myself only" // interesting idea. this suggestion has inspired me to post, under the title "theories of creation", a collection of various "philosophies" of creation that i am aware of. could you explain which of these theories you would want taught, and which ones you would not? or, perhaps, i haven't included a favorite theory of yours (if so, could you describe it for me for inclusion in an updated list)? tom scharle |scharle@irishmvs room g003 computing center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu university of notre dame notre dame, in 46556-0539 usa 
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 this discussion on "objective" seems to be falling into solipsism (eg: the recent challenge from frank dwyer, for someone to prove that he can actually observe phenomena). someones even made the statement that science is "subjective" and that even atom are "subjective." this is getting a bit silly and the word "objective" is losing all meaning. lets start by remembering the definition of "objective" which has been already presented: objective adj. 1. of or having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept. 2. having actual existence. 3.a. unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice. b. based on observable phenomenon. the objectivity of a thing is not based on whether everyone agrees on that thing (eg: the world is objectively round, regardless of the fact that there exist flat earthers), but rather whether it is based observable and verifiable phenomenon (instead of being based solely on peoples wishes, feeling, mental processes, etc). thus atoms, being based on very observable and repeatable phenomenon, are indeed considered to be objective rather than subjective. even weird, high energy physics is based on observable phenomenon (even though that observation can change the outcome). nor are those observable phenomenon affected by emotion, or personal prejudice (eg: chemical reactions do not change to the whims of different people). thus to say that science is not objective (ie: objectively verifiable) is a bit silly, as that is the point of science. now i will agree that science is not objectively "good;" i will not thereby conclude though that science is not objective. now some examples things which are "objective": a d-12 tractor is larger than the average breadbox. chlorophyll is green. seawater contains salt. there exists ozone in the atmosphere (at least presently). ozone blocks ultraviolet light. ultraviolet light increases the incidents of skin cancer. "good" on the other hand is a value judgement. it doesn't seem to have an existence apart from what we give it (unless someone can objectively show the existence of an omnipotent entity which has defined "good"). we cannot quantify it, touch it or collect it in any concrete sense (eg: i have a bag full of "good"). now we do sometimes attempt to give the word "good" an objective meaning, e.g. "good" has been used to denote strength, resiliency, speed, etc. that though, is a subjective definition, as some might not see "strength" and etc, as necessarily "good" (eg: strength inspired by naziism is not generally viewed as "good"). as to a morality, i cannot say that i have ever seen a morality strictly based on verifiable observable phenomenon. the closest i have seen is some form of the "golden rule," which concludes that it is best not to deliberately piss people off, as they will likely then involve themselves in your life, in a manner you won't like. this is verifiable; when you "get in someone's face," they will often retaliate. another objective fact about morality is that a more powerful group can enforce their morality on a weaker group, and thus can at times, ignore that form of the "golden rule" without fear of reprisal. now as to whether this enforcing of morality is "good" or "bad," is quite subjective. by the way, remember that subjective does not mean that a thing cannot be formally stated, or even commonly agreed upon; it only means that that it is not verifiable from observable phenomena, or has a physical existence unto itself. also note that i have not stated that there is no such thing as an objective morality, or that i could not accept any such a morality; i have simply stated that i have seen no evidence of any such one other thing to notice, "objective" is many times used as synonymous with "true" and/or "absolute," and "subjective" sometimes has the connotation of "false" and/or "relative." tain't necessarily so. for instance, when a conclusion is based on objective, but insufficient evidence, then it can be both objective and false. as to "absolute," it is easy to note that while we can objectively show that tnt is explosive, but that does not absolutely mean that all tnt will explode, and thus objective is not necessarily absolute either. on the other hand, something subjective can also be either "absolutist," or "true." for instance, there are some theists who are specifically "absolutist" in their morality, even though they have only subjective evidence to back it up. further, many a scientist and detective has been motivated by subjective reasons (eg: a "gut feeling" or "hunch"), to investigate a phenomena or situation, and gather the objective evidence necessary to support a true hypothesis. on the whole though, i would have to agree that objective evidence is much more trustworthy than subjective dave butler in starting any thesis, it seems to me, one should put forward as one's point of departure something incontrovertible; the expression should be simple and dignified. 
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 as long as we're trading secrets, let me tell y'all one: i got a really bad feeling in my heart back when i was a christian. i couldn't really pinpoint it, but something felt dreadfully cheap and wrong about the whole affair. i had been a devout follower, even a bible-banger, but eventually it started ringing terribly hollow to me. and i felt torn when i began to disagree with a lot of what the bible (and my priests) told me; this was what made me finally realize that either i was very wrong, or else the bible was very wrong. and since i felt reasonably sure of myself, i decided to start analyzing the bible very closely. that was the catalyst to my break with my faith, though it was a long and difficult effort. brian, have you checked out what your priests told you in the bible to see whether they were telling you the truth? did you know that according to the bible, there shouldn't even be such things as "priests" anymore? do you know why the preisthood was established in the old testament to begin with and the reasons why after jesus, there were no priests--that is until the roman catholic church 300 years later devised the doctrine of transubstantiation by ignoring the whole concept beyond the book of hebrews? you said you analyzed the bible very closely. i think you are lying. for if you had, i would think you would have at least got the doctrine of hell straight. so what is your beef against jesus? be specific and point on 
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 people even raised protests when we had a moment of silence for a class member who had tragically died, saying this implied endorsing religion. because, of course, that possibility existed. meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his/her own, which makes more sense than forcing those who don't want to participate to have to take part. what other reason is there for an organized "moment of silence"? a "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone* participates. otherwise it's not silent, now is it? non-religious reasons for having a "moment of silence" for a dead classmate: (1) to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased , (2) to give the classmates a moment to grieve together, (3) to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate *in the context of the school*, (4) to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it's not disruptive later. blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic. pro-choice anti-roe - e. elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare. 
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 david thibedeau (sp?), one of the cult members, said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern. sort of a "mrs. o'leary's" tank theory? moooo. joe knapp jmk@cbvox.att.com 
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 my hope is that brian k. will look and will see the ramifications of the truck coming towards him. my hope is that brian will want to step out of the way. my fear, though, is that brian will instead choose to glue himself to the middle of the highway, where he will certainly get run over. but if he so chooses, he so chooses, and there is nothing i can do beyond that to change his mind. for it is his choice. but at this very moment, brian hasn't gotten even that far. he is still at the point where he does not want to look. sure he moves his eyeball to appease me, but his head will not turn around to see the entire picture. so far he is satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance. the problem is that you imagine him inside this huge wall, unable to see reality. while he imagines the same about you. clearly we have a case where relativity plays a big role concerning looking at opposite frames of reality. kent, with regards to the information contained in the bible (which is the original context of this thread), brian kendig is inside a huge wall. brian *is* inside. the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall. brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says. for example, "if i get through into the firey pit, i will cease to exist." the bible doesn't say that. he hasn't a clue even to what jesus said about hell. that is but one example. now in your sense, kent, of sensing reality--that is a different matter. and to you and to brian, relativity does play a big role. what we perceive to be true, depends on our vantage point. since i have read the bible, and brian kendig shows that he hasn't, he has a narrower perspective than mine (at least in the respect of knowledge of the bible). i am proposing to brian, "brian, come up here and take a look from this vantage point." but brian replies, "i rather not thank you. i am content where i am. besides, the vista from up there stinks." and in the meanwhile, brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands. 
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 |> malcolm lee (mlee@post.royalroads.ca) wrote in reference to leviticus 21:9 |> and deuteronomy 22:20-25: |> : these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had |> : expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a |> : direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god |> : is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. |> : remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to |> : god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the |> : age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is |> : repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just |> : for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile |> : alike. |> hmm, for a book that only applied to the israelites (deuteronomy), jesus sure |> quoted it a lot (mt 4: 4,7,10). in addition, he alludes to it in several |> other places (mt 19:7-8; mk 10:3-5; jn 5:46-47). and, just in case it isn't |> clear jesus thought the old testament isn't obsolete, i'll repeat the |> verse in matthew which gets quoted on this group a lot: |> "do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets; i have |> not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. i tell you the truth, until |> heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke |> of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is |> accomplished. anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments |> and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of |> heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called |> great in the kingdom of heaven. for i tell you that unless your |> righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law, |> you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (mt 5:17-20 niv, in |> pretty red letters, so that you know it's jesus talking) |> this causes a serious dilemma for christians who think the old testament |> doesn't apply to them. i think that's why paul harvey likes quoting it so |> much ;). |> rob lanphier |> lanph872@uidaho.edu i will clarify my earlier quote. god's laws were originally written for the israelites. jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people, not just the jews. gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god. i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus. if anything, he clarified the law such as in that quote you made. in the following verses, jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended. if you'll notice, he also reams into the pharisees for mucking up the law with their own contrived interpretations. they knew every letter of the law and followed it with their heads but not their hearts. that is why he points out that our righteousness must surpass that of the pharisees in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. people such as the pharisees are those who really go out of their way to debate about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. they had become legalistic, rule-makers - religious lawyers who practiced the letter of the law but never really believed in it. i think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of modern-day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it. what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart? christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's perspectives and personal conduct. and it demands obedience to god's will. some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not. that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too. god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 once again, where's your proof? suicide is considered a sin by branch davidians. also, koresh said over and over again that he was not going to commit suicide. furthermore, all the cult experts said that he was not suicidal. david thibedeau (sp?), one of the cult members, said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern. in two places at once? bit of a coincidence, that. whatever the faults the fbi had, the fact is that responsibility for those deaths lies with koresh. clive p a u l m o l o n e y come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - geoffm 
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 |> in article <1993apr20.143754.643@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.royalroads.ca |> > i understand and sympathize with your pain. what happened in waco was a very |> > sad tradgedy. don't take it out on us christians though. the branch |> > davidians were not an organized religion. they were a cult led by a ego-maniac |> > cult leader. the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man, |> > the lord of lords and king of kings, jesus christ. btw, david koresh was not |> > jesus christ as he claimed. |> the interesting notion is that (i watched tv tonight) koresh never |> claimed officially to be jesus christ. his believers hoped that |> he would be, but he never took this standpoint himself. |> he was more interested in breaking the seven seals of revelation, |> and make sure that armageddon would start. well it did, and 19 |> children died, and no god saved them. |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming, not even the angels in heaven but only the father himself? dk was trying to play god by breaking the seals himself. dk killed himself and as many of his followers as he could. btw, god did save the children. they are in heaven, a far better place. how do i know? by faith. god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 there evidently was a feast of bread and wine associated with mithras. i have often wondered if yeshua intentionally introduced this ritual to expand the appeal of his religion, or if it was appropriated by later you could argue that if you wanted, but i think a more reasonable argument would point out the fact that the remembrance feast was very similar to the pesach (passover) meal during seder, a very jewish ritual. the fact that there appears to be an abuse in the early church of people eating too much (a very real concern with some passover meals) and not treating the meal with respect, shows the simplifying of the ritual to just bread and wine to be a way of dealing with the inherent problems of people's human nature, and trying to keep the essentials of the remembrance aspects. david (whitten@fwva.saic.com) us:(619)535-7764 [i don't speak as a company rep.] 
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 deuteronmy 20:13 and when the lord thy god hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword joshua 6:21 and they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, bith man and women, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. joshua 10:32 and the lord delivered lachish into the hand of israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to libnah 
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 (st) stephen tice (km) ken mcvay (st)seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed (st)for the message he carried. (which says nothing about the (km)seems to be, barring evidence to the contrary, that koresh was simply (km)another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of (km)folks with him, children and all, to satisfy his delusional mania. jim (km)jones, circa 1993. i think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary - six "rescued" davidians consistantly recounted that the federal tank knocked over a barrel of propane. these guys haven't exactly been spending time together, plotting an elaborate and consistent story. it would be contradictory for koresh to go for "mass suicide" - remember that koresh's death was the opening of the sixth seal - the signal that armageddon had begun. his army (the people in the compound) would then fight the powers of evil and win, ending in the rapture. the fire wiped out his army. i read earlier that koresh was planning to walk out of the compound and blow himself up with a grenade - that would jibe better with his teachings. (st)in the mean time, we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption. (st)are you surprised things have gotten that rotten? (km)nope - fruitcakes like koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption (km)for centuries. i'd think you'd be the last one to support gassing people and burning them to death for their religious beliefs. corrupt? evil? i don't know. we'll never know. and when you start calling people fruitcakes about their religious beliefs, that's dehumanizing people. we saw what happened when many germans started believing that jews were subhuman. in one neat stroke, they destroyed all the evidence that could have pointed to wrongdoing. and killed all the witnesses, including 12 children whose last view of life was choking and pain, followed by burning them alive. i am extremely saddened that this tragedy occurred. i'm furious that they used my money to do it. "so i become an accessory dave criswell and i don't have an alibi oracle corporation to the victim on my doorstep only way i can justify it's family business ... " fish 
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 john berryhill, ph.d. writes i don't know who's next, but i hope it's people who pick their noses while driving. umm, please don't lump us all together. it's those blatant, fundamentalist pickers that give the rest of us a bad name. some of us try very hard to be discreet and stay alert. peter m. yadlowsky | wake! the sky is light! academic computing center | let us to the net again... university of virginia | companion keyboard. pmy@virginia.edu | - after basho 
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 sm[?]>a real christian unless you're born again is a very fundamental biblical sm[?]>conversion and regeneration are 'probably' part of some small usa-based cult the "born-again" tag often use it to mean very specifically having undergone some sort of ecstatic experience (which can in fact be very easily manufactured with a little psychological manipulation), and are often insultingly dismissive of those whose christianity is a little more intellectual, is not the result some of these "cults", which seems like a rather dismissive term to me, are pretty big here in the usa. most of them are quite respectable & neiborly & do not resemble branch davidians in the least; confusing them is a mistake. what about "live & let live", folks? i'm sure we can uncover a few extremist loonies who are catholic -- the anti-abortion movement in the usa seems to have a few hard cases in it, for example. i've often heard such people use the line "catholics aren't real christians". indeed, anyone sending "missionaries" to ireland must certainly be taking this line, for otherwise why would they not be content for christianity to be maintained in ireland in its traditional catholic form? i have to agree matthew with this; i have certainly encountered a lot of anti-catholic-religion propaganda & emotion (& some bigotry) from members of certain religious groups here. they also practice their missionary work with zeal among catholics in the united states, but to someone who is or was raised catholic such rhetoric is pretty off-putting. it may work better in an environment where there's a lot of popular anti-clericalism. follow-ups set elsewhere, this no longer seems very relevant to celtic issues to me. 
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 there are actually a few important things we can glean from this mess: 1) when they start getting desperate for an answer to the question: "what's it all about. mr. natural?", pinkboys will buy darn near *anything*, which means: 2) there's still plenty of $$$$ to be made in the false jesus business by enterprising subgenii. just remember that: 3) once you've separated the pinks from their green, don't blow it all on automatic weapons from mexico. put it in a swiss bank account. smile a lot. have your flunkies hand out flowers in airports. the con will just shrug you off as long as: 4) you never, never, never start to believe your own bulldada! if "david koresh" hand't started swallowing his own "apocalypso now" crap, he'd be working crossword puzzles in the bahamas today instead of contributing to the mulch layer in waco. this is because: 5) when you start shooting at cops, they're likely to shoot back. and most of 'em are better shots than you are. in short: - p.t. barnum was right - stupidity is self-correcting thus endeth the lesson. * the_doge of south st. louis * * dobbs-approved media conspirator(tm) * * "one step beyond" -- sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 fm st. louis community radio * * "you'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- j.r. "bob" dobbs" * 
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 for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon. it's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people. i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths? koresh was a nut, okay? again, i'd like to see some evidence. nut or not, he was clearly a liar. he said he would surrender after local radio stations broadcast his message, but he didn't. then he said he would surrender after passover, but he didn't. none of which excuses the gross incompetence and disregard for the safety of the children displayed by the feds. as someone else pointed out, if it had been chelsea clinton in there you would probably have seen more restraint. ---peter 
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 the second question is, "what makes gerry think that the davidians' actions would have been different had another type of warrant been in use ?" just taking a guess, perhaps it was that koresh had peaceably been served with warrants before, and he did not shoot anyone but instead went with the police without fighting. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 ^^-- name? for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his other than it tells quite a lot about the man himself. it's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people. are you the spokesman for "most people?" i've enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used. as a christian sermon, it's pretty good, if not though i differ in part on some of his conclusions, the argument he presents is well backed -- which is why it's taken me this long to work through -- still ongoing. if you thought it was rambling -- that says far more about you than it does koresh. you've made me curious. what does this say about me? that you don't recognize the biblical commentary used. those in the church know the language though, and have no such excuse. first seal in revelation 6, the entirety of psalms 45, and the most of revelation 19 -- which demonstrated one of his major points about how the writings in the prophets (including david), and in the psalms, and in revelation are all telling the same story when you understand how they're related (ie have the key). they largely explain each other. charles manson used revelation as well. do we see a pattern here? i wonder if koresh liked the beatles? you missed the point -- which is that the prophets, the psalms, and revelation, all together, provide a very rich view of a very special event -- a wedding. koresh was a nut, okay? just because he found ways for the bible to backup his rantings does not make him any less of a kook. how are you able to make such a conclusion? please note, that the first part of revelation makes it clear that the address is to those in the church. that said, it doesn't hurt to try to see what the prophecies are ahead of time -- for those outside the church. seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried. i'll type this very slowly so that you can understand. he either set the fire himself or told his followers to do so. don't make him out to be a martyr. he did not "get killed", he killed himself. so you say. it should be interesting to see what the investigators conclude, and what the final judgments are. in the mean time, we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption. are you surprised things have gotten that rotten? the evil was inside the compound. all that "thou shalt not kill" stuff. so much for war and government eh. oh yeah, one last point for the believers -- philippian 2:14-19. for the rest of us, could you please post the text? very glad you asked, since i goofed -- it should be philippian 1:14-19: (here from niv) because of my chains, most of the brothers in the lord have been encouraged to speak the word of god more courageously and fearlessly. it is true that some preach christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of good will. the latter do so in love, knowing that i am put here for the gospel. the former preach christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while i am chains. but what does it matter? the important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, christ is preached. and because of this i rejoice. my comment stems from the realization that we who love the lord, are human and imperfect. whatever we "preach," no matter how eloquent, or how corrupted -- is of little difference. those who know the master's voice will recognize him -- a gem-stone amidst rock. such is also the lesson of the "stumblingblock." for those who have an ear to hear. -- j -- | stephen 
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 in a previous article, sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) says: well, it depends how you look at it. if you are interested i might find out what the latest status is in this legal battle. please do! and if you don't want to post it here, email to me :-) i don't know how this discussion is appreciated here. i hate 'invading' newsgroups with themes of limited interest :-) 
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 :::didn't christ tell his disciples to arm them selves, shortly :::before his crusifiction? (i believe the exact quote was along the :::lines of, "if you have [something] sell it and buy a sword.") ::this from a guy who preached love, deference of power to god and ::renunciation of worldly life in exchange for a life of the spirit? if ::jesus did in fact command his disciples to arm themselves, i would ::take that as yet another reason to reject christian doctrine, for ::whatever it's worth. like most religions, the doctrine has good and bad in it. i would certainly reject the current implementations of the doctrine. :no. the above is a classic example of taking a scripture out of context. :it's taken from luke 22:36. but note vs 37; "for i tell you that this :which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, 'and he will be reckoned :with lawless ones'...". he then stated that two swords were enough :for the group to carry to be counted as lawless. so having more than the politically correct number of weapons was cause to be arresed and killed even then, huh? :jesus' overiding message was one of peace (turn other cheek; live by :sword die by sword; etc). yes, of course, as in matthew 10:34-35 "do not suppose that i have come to bring peace to the earth; it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword..." rich loether snail mail: university of pittsburgh the ideas: email: rjl+@pitt.edu computing and info services mine, voice: (412) 624-6429 600 epsilon drive all fax : (412) 624-6426 pittsburgh, pa 15238 mine. 
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 nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (peter nelson) writes... for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon. it's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people. i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths? koresh was a nut, okay? again, i'd like to see some evidence. nut or not, he was clearly a liar. he said he would surrender after local radio stations broadcast his message, but he didn't. then he said he would surrender after passover, but he didn't. the rest of the story seems to be that the agreement for the broadcast was for prime-time, and that koresh never even heard it played. wasn't even tuned in to the radio when it aired -- so no reason to come out. if later they had given him a copy of the grossly twisted newswire transcript -- i'm certain koresh would think he was at the mercy of evil itself. as to coming out after passover, wasn't that just one of the lawyer's speculations peter? -- j -- | stephen 
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 [deleted] here tis. someone just told me that the old testament books were translated into greek a long time ago yes, that's a famous version called the septuagint. it was a translation made by greek jews. and that the originals were destroyed in a fire soon afterward. i don't know what you're referring to here. when the jersusalem temple was destroyed, some manuscripts may have been lost, but i think our extant hebrew manuscripts are as good as our greek ones. i don't know about any "originals". the person who was telling me about the septuagint version said that the greeks had a wonderful library in alexandria that was full of manuscripts/scrolls and that it was burned soon after the septuagint version was translated (perhaps to conceal some changes in the different versions, or perhaps just as part of the typical burning of valuable things that occurs during changes in power groups, he/i dunno). so, i was just wondering, since i imagine some jewish people somewhere must have had copies of the earlier hebrew versions, is the hebrew version of the old testament very different from the greek derived version? no. there are a few famous discrepancies (isaiah's prophecy about a "young woman" was changed into a "virgin", which was how the new testament writers read it), but not many. well, perhaps this is the answer then. [deleted] if you go to a jewish bookstore, you'll get a bible translated by jews, so there will be some differences in interpretation, but the text they're translating *from* is basically the same. if you want to read "the original", you can buy an interlinear bible. that contains the hebrew old testament and the greek new testament, with an english translation written underneath each word. if you want a bible with a possibly-more-original basic text, you can try to find a samaritan bible. (good luck! i've never seen one.) the samaritans (no, not the good samaritans) have their own version of the 5 books of moses. they claim the jewish bible was altered by ezra. thanks for the tips. now i just have to find someone to teach me samaritan :) just me, little 'e' (so, is a "good samaritan hard to find?" or "is a hard... " oh, finish this yourself.) * * * chocolatier at arms, and castle wetware liason * * * * * * e-mail: cocoa@netcom.com - voicemail: 415-337-4940 * * * 
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 (peter nyikos) says: in <1qk73q$3fj@agate.berkeley.edu> dzkriz@ocf.berkeley.edu (dennis kriz) if one is paying for a private health insurance plan and does not want "abortion coverage" there is no reason for that person to be complelled to pay for it. (just as one should not be compelled to pay for lipposuction coverage if one doesn't want that kind of coverage). you appear to be stunningly ignorant of the underlying concept of health are you any less stunningly ignorant? have you ever heard of life insurance premiums some companies give in which nonsmokers are charged much smaller premiums than smokers? not to mention auto insurance being much cheaper for women under 25 than for men under 25, because women on the average drive more carefully than most men--in fact, almost as carefully as i did before i was 25. as many people have mentioned, there is no reason why insurers could not offer a contract without abortion services for a different premium. the problem is that there is no guarantee that this premium would be lower for those who chose this type of contract. although you are removing one service, that may have feedbacks into other types of covered care which results in a net increase in actuarial costs. for an illustrative example in the opposite direction, it may be possible to add services to an insurance contract and reduce the premium. if you add preventative services and this reduces acute care use, then the total premium may fall. these words and thoughts are my own. * i am not bound to swear ** ** ** ** * allegiance to the word of any ** ** ** ** ** ** * master. where the storm carries ** ** ** * me, i put into port and make d. shea, psu * myself at home. 
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 |> : do you consider neo-nazis and white supremists to be christian? i'd hardly |> : classify them as christian. do they follow the teachings of christ? love |> : one another. love your neighbour as yourself. love your enemies. is jesus |> : christ their lord and saviour? by the persecution of jews, they are violating |> : all the precepts of what christ died for. they are in direct violation of |> : the teachings of christ. even jesus who was crucified by the jewish leaders |> : of that time, loved his enemies by asking the father for forgiveness of their |> : sins. i am a christian and i bear no animosity towards jews or any one else. |> : the enemy is satan, not our fellow man. |> in mark 16:16, jesus is quoted as saying "whoever believes and is baptized |> will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." i |> consider most neo-nazis and white supremisists to be christians because: |> a) they say they are |> b) they feel it necessary to justify their actions with the bible where does it say in the bible that christians are supposed to persecute jews? isn't it love your enemies instead? they may say they are "christian" but do their actions speak differently? do you believe what everyone tells you? i don't. i came to believe in god by my own investigation and conclusions. and ultimately by my own choice. salvation, however, was granted only through the grace of god. |> the bible provides us with no clear definition of what a christian is. it |> tells us what a christian *should* do, but then it goes on to say that as |> long as you believe, your sins will be forgiven. to be a christian is to model oneself after jesus christ as implied by the very name christian. if you say you believe in your head but do not feel in your heart, what does that say of your belief? |> white supremisists and |> neo-nazis may not be your brand of christian, but by believing in christ, |> they are christian. white supremists and neo-nazis are not any brand of christian. "if you hate your whom you can see then how can you love god whom you cannot see?" what does this belief entail? believing in christ and having your sins forgiven in his name does not give a christian a free licence to sin. to repent of a sin is to ask forgiveness of that sin and try not to do it again. i am a christian, but if you lump me in with racists and accuse me of being such, then are you not pre-judging me? btw, i am of chinese racial background and i know what it is to be part of a visible minority in this country. i don't think that i would be favourably looked upon by these white supremist "christians" as you call them. anyone can say what they believe, but if they don't practice what they preach, then their belief is false. do you concur? |> now, for your original statement: |> : |> : what bothers me most is why people who have no religious affiliation |> : |> : continue to persecute jews? why this hatred of jews? the majority of |> : |> : people who persecute jews are not christians (i can't speak for all |> : |> : christians and there are bound to be a few who are on the anti-semitism |> : |> : bandwagon.) |> you imply here that it is predominately atheists and agnostics who |> persecute jews. i am hard pressed to think of even an example of jewish |> persecution in the hands of atheists/agnostics. nazis and racists in general are the ones that come to my immediate attention. what i believe is that such people may be using the bible to mask their racial intolerance and bigotry. they can do as they do and hide behind christianity but i tell you that jesus would have nothing to do with them. |> about the only one that |> comes to mind would be in the former soviet union, where many religious |> people suffered some sort of persecution (not to mention many |> atheist/agnostics who suffered persecution for believing the government |> sucked). no arguement there. |> rob lanphier |> lanph872@uidaho.edu the only point i'm trying to make is that those who call themselves christian may not be christian. i ask that you draw your own conclusions by what they do and what they say. if they are not modelled after the example of jesus christ then they are not christian. if they have not repented of their sins and accepted jesus christ as their personal lord and saviour then they are not christian. these are the only criteria to being a christian. may god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 just maybe you won't be home. then you can come home to something like this: "well, it's been a rough month," begins johnnie lawmaster. "i just get laid off, and my divorce became final. but i just wasn't ready for what happened this particular monday." [horror story about fbi ruining a guy's life for the hell of it omitted] so if you don't want your tea party to be held in awkward silence, make sure your lawyer isn't there, there's a good chap. so, is this a real story or a work of fiction? how about some sources? when, where, and in what newspaper did you get all this from? or is it all hypothetical? | david charlap | "apple ii forever" - steve wozniac | | dic5340@hertz.njit.edu | "i drank what?" - socrates | 
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 since you have referred to the messiah, i assume you are referring to the new testament. please detail your complaints or e-mail if you don't want to post. first-century greek is well-known and well-understood. have you considered josephus, the jewish historian, who also wrote of jesus? in addition, the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony. bill, i find it rather remarkable that you managed to zero in on what is probably the weakest evidence. what is probably the most convincing is the anti-christian literature put out by the jewish councils in the second century. there are enormous quantities of detailed arguments against christianity, many of the arguments still being used today. despite volumes of tracts attacking christianity, not one denies the existance of jesus, only of his activities. i find this considerably more compelling than josephus or the harmony of the gospels (especially considering that matthew and luke probably used mark as a source). | __l__ -|- ___ warren kurt vonroeschlaub | | o | kv07@iastate.edu |/ `---' iowa state university /| ___ math department | |___| 400 carver hall | |___| ames, ia 50011 j _____ 
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 does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian-owned corporations and companies? one that i know of is wordperfect. i believe that wordperfect is actually owned by the mormons. sorry, but mormons aren't generally considered to be christians. =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= ="do you have some pumps and a purse in this shade? a perfume that whispers, = ='please come back to me'? i'm looking for something in green."-laurie morgan= 
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 |> > the fbi claims, on the basis of their intelligence reports, |> > that bd's had no plans to commit suecide. they, btw, had bugged the |> > place and were listening to bd's conversations till the very end. |> > koresh's attorney claims that, based on some 30 hours he spent |> > talking to his client and others in the compound, he saw no |> > indication that bd's were contemplating suecide. |> > the survivors claim it was not a suecide. |> it's not clear that more than one of the survivors made this claim. it is |> clear that at least one of the survivors made the contradictory claim that |> bd members had started the fire. no, this is far from clear. we only have the word of the fbi spokepeople that a survivor made this claim. we have the contradictory word of the lawyers who spoke with the survivors individually that all of them agreed that they did not have a suicide pact and did not intentionally start the fire. in the absense of any more evidence, i don't see how we can decide who to believe. furthermore, its quite possible that there was no general suicide pact and that some small inner circle took it upon themselves to kill everyone else. with the state of the area now, we may never know what happened. |> > bd's were not contemplating suecide, and there is no reason |> > to believe they committed one. |> no reason? how about these two: |> 1. some of the survivors claimed that bd members poured fuel along the |> corridors and set fire to it. the speed at which the fire spread |> is not inconsistent with this claim. again, we have only the word of the fbi on this claim. the lawyers who have also talked to the survors deny that any of them are making that claim. |> 2. there was certainly a fire which killed most of the people in the compound. |> there is a very very good possibility that the fbi did not start this |> fire. this is a good reason to believe that the bd's did. i will agree on your assessment as to the relative probabilities. its more likely that the bd's started the fire than did the fbi. but there is currently no way to decide what actually happened based on the publically available evidence (which is nearly none). |> 3. even if the bd's were not contemplating suicide, it is very possible that |> david koresh was convinced (and thus convinced the others) that this |> was not suicide. it was the fulfilment of a profecy of some sort. |> there are three possibilities other than the bd's self destruction: |> a. they are not dead, but escaped via bunker,etc. from reports of the |> inadequacies of the tunnels and the bodies found, i would rate this |> as highly unlikely. |> b. the fire was started by an fbi accident. this is possible, but it would be |> foolish of us to declare this outright until more evidence can back it. |> sure, it's possible that the armored vehicle knocked down a lantern |> which started the fire (why was there a lit lantern in the middle of |> the day near the edge of the complex?). it's anecdotal evidence that |> has been contradicted by other escapees. |> c. the fire was started on purpose by the fbi. this has been suggested by |> some on the net, and i would rate this possibility as utterly |> ludicrous. this is what we in "sci.skeptic" would call an |> "extraordinary claim" and won't bother refuting unless someone gives |> any good evidence to back it up. d. the fire was an started accidentally by the bds. i am truely amazed that i have heard (or read) of no one suggesting this possibility. with all the tear gas and the lack of electical power in the compound and the adults wearing gas masks, it had to have been chaotic inside. i can easily image someone leaving a lamp too close to something or accidentally dropping a lamp or knocking one over. with the winds, it would have quickly gotten out of control. |> so we are left with two reasonable possibilities. that the fire was an fbi |> accident and that the fire was started by the bd. i find the latter more |> likely based on the evidence i've seen so far. no, i think that d is also quite reasonable. i personally can't really asses any relative probablities to either of these 3 probabilities although if forced to bet on the issue, i would probably take an accident (either fbi or bd) over intential setting of the fire). i would also like to add a comment related to the reports that bodies recovered had gunshot wounds. the coroner was on the today show this morning and categorically denied that they've reach any such conclusions. he pointed out that under intense heat, sufficient pressure builds up in the head that can cause it to explode and that this can look very much like a massive gunshot wound to the head which is quite consisted with te reports i've read and heard. in short, there's been almost no evidence corroborating any of the many scenarios as to what happened on monday. we should remain skeptical until more information is available. |> *isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___ |> * * _____/_o_\_____ |> * twinkle, twinkle, little .sig, *(==(/_______\)==) |> * keep it less than 5 lines big. * \==\/ \/==/ bob garwood 
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 #>science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, #>as you would wish it. if there is no such thing as objective value, then #>science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head. #>simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said #>to be more useful than a set of tarot cards. you like those conclusions? #>i don't. #i think that you are changing the meaning of "values" here. perhaps #it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word. #value n. 1. a fair equivalent or return for something, such as goods #or service. 2. monetary or material worth. 3. worth as measured in #usefulness or importance; merit. 4. a principle, standard, or quality #considered inherently worthwhile or desirable. 5. precise meaning, as #of a word. 6. an assigned or calculated numerical quantity. 7. mus. #the relative duratation of a tone or rest. 8. the relative darkness or #lightness of a color. 9. the distinctive quality of a speech or speech #sound. #in context of a moral system, definition four seems to fit best. in terms #of scientific usage, definitions six or eight might apply. note that #these definitions do not mean the same thing. no, i'm using definition (3), or perhaps (4) in both cases. if there is no objective worth, usefulness, or importance then science has no objective worth, usefulness, or importance. if nothing is inherently worthwhile or desirable, then simple theories with accurate predictions are not inherently worthwhile or desirable. do you see any flaws in this? the problem is, your use of the word "objective" along with "values." both definitions three and four are inherently subjective, that is they are particular to a given individual, or personal. you see, what one person may see as worthwhile, another may see as worthless. if on the other hand, some things *have* objective worth, usefulness, or importance, it would be interesting to know what they are. again, your form of measurement in this sentence, that being of "worth" is subjective. #if you can provide an objective foundation for "morality" then that will #be a good beginning. i'm not willing to attempt this until someone provides an objective basis for the notion that science is useful, worthy, or important in dealing with observed facts. alternatively, you could try to demonstrate to me that science is not necessarily useful, worthy or important in any situation. in other words, i need to know how you use the term "objective". when i find that my usage of a word is different than the usage of that word given by another person, i try to find a standard against which to judge that usage. in most cases, the dictionary is the standard i use. here is a definiton of objective: objective adj. 1. of or having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept. 2. having actual existance. 3.a. unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice. b. based on observable phenomenon. by this definition, science does not have an objective worth, since the phrase "objective worth" is an oxymoron. however you asked something a little differently this time, you asked for an objective basis for a notion. the fact that the use of science as an intellectual tool is responsible for changes in our world (the changes are material, and thus "objective") would provide an objective _basis_ for an argument. however, the conclusion arrived at from that argument (that science is "good") is subjective. i think that the problem here is one of word usage. take a little time and read the definitions of these words: objective, subjective, worth, value, morality, good, evil. i believe that if you think about the meaning of them for a while, you will have to conclude that there is no such thing as an objective morality. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian-owned corporations and companies? one that i know of is wordperfect. i believe that wordperfect is actually owned by the mormons. sorry, wordperfect is own by a mormon not the lds church. slight semantical difference. the lds church does own a heck of a lot however. they are the largest land holder in missouri (where they think christ will appear at the second coming). i believe they also own some large beverage company like pepsi (that was why they had to take caffiene off of their "forbidden substance" list). 
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 i've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me. i really wish i could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence i build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be so nice to know i have someone watching over me in it... brian k., i am pleased with your honesty. and to be honest as well, i believe you have not asked my god to come to you. why do i say this? because by the things you write on the net, and the manner with which you write them, you show me that you made up your own god and are attempting to pass him off as the real thing. i got news for you. yours doesn't at all sound like mine. your god doesn't come to you because your god doesn't exist. i've gone into this with an open mind. i've layed my beliefs aside from time to time when i've had doubt, and i've prayed to see what good that would do. i don't see what more i can do to open myself to your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason. and if i decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some other god? zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate... i am sorry brian, but when i read your postings, i do not see an open mind. what i do see is misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, arrogance and mockery. please tell me what more i can do while still remaining true to myself. be true to yourself then. have an open mind. and so end the mockery. gain knowledge of the real god. put your presumptions aside. read the bible and know that there is, truly is, a reason for everything and there exists a god that has so much love for you that the depth of it goes beyond our shallow worldly experience. a person who commits himself to seeking god, will find god. jesus stands at your door and knocks. but a person who half-heartedly opens the bible, or opens it with purpose to find something to mock, will find, learn and see nothing. the only thing one will gain with that attitude is folly. be careful to not jump the gun, for at first glance, there are many passages in the bible that will seem bizarre and absurd. be assured that even though they seem alien at first, be confident that they are not. be assured that beyond your present comprehension, there lies such deep reasons that once you see them, you will indeed be satisfied. i will personally guarantee that one. as jesus put it, "you will never be thirsty again. your cup will even flow over." from king solomon (970 b.c. to 930 b.c.): "it is the glory of god to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." jesus says in john 6:44 & 55: "no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him." and in john 3:16: "for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." you are included in "whosoever". and i also pray that the father is drawing you, which it seems he is doing else you wouldn't be posting to talk.religion.misc. remember brian, you could be a st. paul in the making. paul not only mocked christians as you do, but also had pleasure stoning them. yet god showed him mercy, saved him, and paul became on of the most celebrated men in the history of god's church. you see brian, i myself better be careful and not judge you, because you could indeed be the next paul. for with the fervor that you attack christians, one day you might find yourself one, and like paul, proclaim the good news of jesus with that very same fervor or more. or you could be the next peter. what jesus said to peter, jesus would probably say to you: "satan would surely like to have you." why so? because peter was hard-headed, cynical and demonstrated great moments of stupidity, but once peter committed himself to a task he did with full heart. peter was the only apostle to have the faith to walk on water as jesus did. you asked "why not believe in zeus?" zeus didn't offer eternal life. you got nothing to gain by believing in zeus. brian ceccarelli brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu 
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 ["it" is big bang] you sound absolutely convinced! tell me how long did it last, what color was it? since you asked... from the big bang to the formation of atoms is about 10e11 seconds. as for the "color": bright. very very bright. it must be so exciting to know for sure. i don't. i believe the current theory of cosmology because it is fairly well supported by observational evidence (not as well supported as, say evolution or relativity, but that's another matter). you're the one who proposes unquestioningly accepting religious dogma as fact (apologies if you're not actually a creationist). by the way, it seems as though there is a fine line between "postulating new miracles" and postulating new theories. the line is broader than you think. theories are supported by evidence. miracles are supported by someone's say-so. | joe duffy duffy@asl.dl.nec.com | | nec america, inc. | | advanced switching laboratory | justin fang (justinf@cco.caltech.edu) this space intentionally left blank. 
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 why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus. i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles, but what are the other reasons? michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton 
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 [note the "followup-to" redirect(s) to alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc.] (timothy j brent) said in response to p.vasilion: but then, i don't pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it. you don't really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do you? if so, tell me where you live so i can be sure to steer well clear. the public also has rights, and they should be placed above those of the individual. go ahead, call me a commie, but you'd be singing a different tune if i exercised my right to rape your daughter. he broke the law, he was a threat to society, they did there job - simple. (1) you have no evidence that david koresh or his followers were "packing" that heavy weaponry with any intent to use for other that recreational and self-defense purposes. (2) your statement that "the public also has rights" is correct only is parsed as "the individuals who comprise the public also have rights." there is no separate rights-bearing entity known as "the public". (3) since the "rights of the public" of which you spoke are in fact only rights of individuals, the statement that the rights of the public should be placed above the rights of the individual has no meaning. (4) you have artificially created an illusionary conflict of individuals' rights when you speak of "my right to rape your daughter." no person has the right to rape another person, therefore there is no (5) how do you define "society?" do you hold that this "society" is a rights-bearing entity which is separate from any individual people? how do you define a "threat to society?" to what extent do you believe that a person loses his rights when he is declared (by whom?) to be such a -- william december starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu> 
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 jim and andy both have it incorrect i believe: the *facts* are what is there, the processes that exist in the present or the physical evidence of the processes having occured in the past. these *facts* exist with or without a theory. the *theory* tries and explains the *facts* and how they relate to the rest of the physical universe in a manner that is both coherent and useful, that it can be used to make predictions. the *facts* of gravity, evolution, electromagnetic radiation, relativity, atoms will exist and behave in the way in which they behave regardless of whether we have a theory to try and explain how they interact... or even why. a theory never really becomes a fact... but a theory can predict the existence of a previously unknown fact, and if we find this fact as the theory predicted we say the *theory* is *supported* by the *facts*. a theory is a mental construct, a speculation, a model. if it is a good model, it may be useful. in science a theory is something that is supported by the evidence, considerable evidence, sometimes *all* of the evidence. a *hypothesis* is a new fledgling theory because there is not yet enough evidence to support it. when a new hypothesis is proposed to replace an existing theory, it must explain *all* of the facts that the current theory explains and at least some of the facts that the current theory could not and/or predict new facts. it is so simple.... i'm surprised that this subject gets beat to death about once a month. a quick glance in a dictionary would clear up 99% of the confusion and bandwidth in this newsgroup. then we could talk about really important things like, why do men have nipples? -david utidjian- utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu 
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 why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus. i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles, but what are the other reasons? far from being "tossed out," the gospels are taken, almost universally, as the primary source of information about jesus. i am curious as to whom mike cobb is referring. who "tosses out" the new testament? undoubtedly a few *naive* atheists do this, but the phrasing of the question above seems to suggest that cobb ascribes this more broadly. perhaps the question that gets more to the heart of the matter is why, except for some *naive* believers (who, unfortunately, far outnumber nonbelievers, both naive and critical), are the gospels *not* taken as "gospel truth" that faithfully records just what happened two thousand years ago? this has an easy answer, and the answer has *nothing* to do with miracles: no text is taken this way by a critical reader. there is a myth among some naive believers that one takes a text, measures it by some set of criteria, and then either confirms the text as "historically valid" or "tosses out" the text. i suspect this myth comes from the way history is presented in primary and secondary school, where certain texts are vested with authority, and from writers such as josh mcdowell who pretend to present historical arguments along these lines for their religious program. in fact, most texts used in primary and secondary school history classes ought to be tossed out, even the better such texts should not be treated as authoritatively as descibed above, and josh mcdowell would not know a historical argument if it bit him on the keister twice. let me present the barest outlines of a different view of texts and their use in studying history. first, all texts are historically valid. all texts. or to put this another way, i have never seen a notion of "historical validity" that makes any sense when applied to a text. second, no text should be read as telling the "gospel truth" about historical events, in the way that many students are wont to read history texts in primary and secondary school. no text. (this includes your favorite author's history of whatever.) every text is a historical fact. every text was written by some person (or some group of people) for some purpose. hence, every text can serve as historical evidence. the question is: what can we learn from a text? of what interesting things (if any) does the text provide evidence? the diaries of the followers of the maharishi, formerly of oregon, are historical evidence. the gospels are historical evidence. the letters of the officers who participated in the vampire inquests in eastern europe are historical evidence. the modern american history textbooks that whitewash "great american figures" are historical evidence. these are all historical evidence of various things. they are *not* much evidence at all that the maharishi, formerly of oregon, could levitate; that jesus was resurrected; that vampires exist; or that "great american figures" are as squeaky clean as we learned in school. they are better evidence that some people "saw" the maharishi, late of oregon, levitate; that some of the early christians thought jesus was resurrected; that many people in eastern europe "saw" vampires return from the grave; and that we still have an educational system that largely prefers to spread myth rather than teach history. how does one draw causal connections and infer what a piece of historical evidence -- text or otherwise -- evinces? this is a very complex question that has no easily summarized answer. there are many books on the subject or various parts of the subject. i enjoy david hackett fischer's "historian's fallacies" as a good antidote to the uncritical way in which it is so easy to read texts present history. it's relatively cheap. it's easy to read. give it a try. 
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 hello ceci: my name is tony and i have a few comments on your "rosicrucian" adventure. i hereby state that i am not claiming or denying membership in any order, fraternity etc. with or without the word "rosicrucian" in the name of the organization. i only claim having done some "homework" :-) this is intended as a friendly article and if at times it seems different, it's my lack of writing skills showing, nothing else. heck, english may be my second language! (and then again maybe not by now :-) i proceed: i had an ehum, interesting experience with the rosicrucians, or at least rosicrucians of some sort last sunday. let's start with the name "rosicrucian". i took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there is a difference between a *member* of a "rosicrucian" body and being *a* rosicrucian. so when you say that you met some 'rosicrucians' you mean "members of a group that calls themselves rosicrucian". at least that is what your observation suggests :-) i'd prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the lectorium rosicrucianum, only because they may be confused, by some readers of this newsgroup, with the rosicrucian order amorc based (the usa jurisdiction) in san jose, ca; this being the rc org with the most members (last time i looked). of course, "most members" does not *necessarily* mean "best". anyway, the lectorium rosicrucianum claims they descend (at least in part) from what was the "gold-und-rosenkreuz" (golden and rosy cross), from the 18th century. there were two "golden and rosy cross", the first (chronologically) more alchemical, the second with masonic tinges, but their history is the subject of a complete chapter :-). "you'll have to trust me" when i tell you that if that lecture/class/whatever had been presented by amorc, it is unlikely that you would have had the same impression, i.e., you'd probably have had a positive impression more likely than a negative one, imho. the first guy also said that the r:s are a mystical christian order, and that they base their teachings on the teachings of the kathars (english?) from the thirteenth century. again, instead of r:s, it should be "lectorium rosicrucianum" :-). it is curious to know that 3 other rc 'orders' (in the usa) claim to be *non- sectarian*. the cathars were a 'heretic' christian sect that directly challenged the 'authority' of the medieval catholic church. they flourished during the 12th century, century which saw the religious zeal expressed in the crusades and also the growing disillusion with the catholic church and the worldly ways of its clerics. it was largely in response to the church's unseemly pomp and splendor that catharism took root, first in northern italy, then throughout the south of france. what made me a bit suspicious, was the way they first said that we all contained something divine, and could find our way back to divinity, then that we couldn't become divine as the persons we are currently, but if we worked really hard we would reach eternal bliss. i don't see nothing *fundamentally* wrong with "us containing something divine"... and yes i don't like phrases like "eternal bliss" either! :-) how to robotize people and brainwash... for a moment i thought you were referring to madison ave :-) (madison avenue in new york city is where the most influential (read $$$) *commercial* advertising is produced here in the usa :-) btw, i have read the intro letters of the lrc which they will mail you free of charge. 
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 the default condition, in the absence of a preponderance of evidence either way, is that the proposition or assertion is undecidable. and the person who takes the undecidable position and says that he/she simply disbelieves that the proposition is true, is the only one who holds no burden of proof. this is why the so-called "weak atheist" position is virtually unassailable -- not because it stands on a firm foundation of logical argument, but because it's proponents simply disbelieve in the existence of god(s) and therefore they hold no burden of proof. when you don't assert anything, you don't have to prove anything. that's where weak atheism draws its strength. but its strength is also its achilles' heel. without assertions/axioms, one has no foundation upon which to build. as a philosophy, it's virtually worthless. imo, of course. yes, as a philosophy weak atheism is worthless. this is true in exactly the same sense that as a philosophy christians' disbelief in zeus is worthless. atheists construct their personal philosophies from many different sources, building non-god-based ideas in the same way as christians build non-zeus-based ideas of thunderbolts. atheists no more *base* their philosophy on atheism than christians base theirs on the nonexistence of zeus. the "weak atheist" position is logically extremely assailable -- any logical demonstration of the existence of a god completely destroys it as soon as the demonstration is made in the presence of a given weak atheist. atheists in this newsgroup are barraged regularly with attempts to provide such a logical demonstration, and they all fail miserably. in fact, most of the people around here who claim the "strong (as opposed to mathematical) atheist" position do so on this basis: not only do we not believe in a god, but also all the arguments presented in favor of particular gods have to date proven unsound; therefore, one can say that those gods as argued by those arguments do not exist. this doesn't apply to such philosophers' gods as are defined to be logically undemonstrable, but these are not the gods of popular religion, and the coherence of such claims is quite jim perry perry@dsinc.com decision support, inc., matthews nc these are my opinions. for a nominal fee, they can be yours. 
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 [ deleted ] take light as another example. there are two theories: particle and wave. each one fails to predict the behavior of light as some point. so which is it: particle or wave? [ deleted ] your information on this topic is very much out of date. quantum electro- dynamics (qed - which considers light to be particles) has been experimentally verified to about 14 decimal digits of precision under all tested conditions. i'm afraid that this case, at least in the physics community, has been decided. laymen should consult "qed - the strange theory of light and matter" by richard p. feynman and for the more technically minded there's "the feynman lectures on physics" by feynman, leighton and sands (an excellent 3 volumes). case closed. uucp: uunet!tektronix!sail!mikec or m.cranford uunet!tektronix!sail.labs.tek.com!mikec principal troll arpa: mikec%sail.labs.tek.com@relay.cs.net resident skeptic csnet: mikec@sail.labs.tek.com teklabs, tektronix 
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 i found this on the net at my college. it sounds pretty good to me. what do you folks think? this are the tenets of stan as handed down and set within the holy book of stan. 1: thou shalt not spill thine drinks or waste thine food, for all that is is sacred, and to waste is the denizen of luc, the infidel. all who waste today shall have not tomorrow. 2: thou shalt pay heed to those who know the higher calling of stan so that they may teach you the way, and that thou shalt become one with stan and the universe shall be in your hands. 3: thou shalt honor thy loved ones and cherish those near you, for they are the true path to happiness, and happiness is a devine gift of thy lord stan. 4: stan is the one true god and shall be taken before all others so that the false gods will know that he is the one, and all who oppose him shall forever be banished to the form of the sheep and be sent to the flocks of luc for all eternity. 5: the word is the law, and the law is the word. the word is within thine own heart, follow the path and be true to thine own self and thou shalt be blessed by stan, thy lord and saviour. 6: thou shalt honor the faiths of others, for it is their choice to follow this path, and do not think less of others for being of a different faith, yet even in the face of these false gods, do not waiver in thine faith in stan, and hope that the unbeliever will see the light that is stan. 7: thou shalt not wrong others for being different, for stan cherishes the different, and holds freedom in the highest regard, for to do less would be to fall in with luc, the infidel, for stan does not control, he merely guides, and lets the choice lie within thine own heart. 8: thou shalt know that thy lord stan has many names and is called differently by many people, but know also that stan is the true name, and all those of the faith shall know that stan is god and god is stan. 9: thou shalt be to the world what thou art to thineself, for to be false to others is to be false to yourself. thy lord stan asks not that you be like him, he asks only that you be like yourself for that is all you were ever meant to be. 10: thou shalt not kill the innocent nor spill blood unnecessarily, for those who are deserving of death shall be dealt with by stan and sent for all eternity to the flocks of luc, and those who harm the children of stan, being born of woman, shall be judged as the sheep of luc and spend all of time within his flocks. these commandments are the words of stan. heed them and he shall be happy, and if thy lord stan is happy, his happiness shall be passed down to his followers. hail stan! it seems like a pretty good set of tenets to me. -=v=- i like kittens... | e-mail: | robert voss | die!! especially with | rgv9488@ultb.isc.rit.edu | 25 andrews memorial dr | die!! a side order of | rgv9488@ritvax.isc.rit.edu | cpu# 01479 | die!! french fries... | rgv9488@ritvax.bitnet | rochester ny 14623 | die!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------| die!! i am darkness eternal! call me! my phone number is (716) 475-4197 | die!! 
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 why isn't this falsifiable? i.e. there is no god, the world has existed forever and had no starting point. ? how does one falsify god's existance? this, again, is a belief, not a scien- tific premise. the original thread referred specifically to "scientific creationism". this means whatever theory or theories you propose must be able to be judged by the scientific method. this is in contrast to purely philosophical arguments. if given a definite definition of "god", it is sometimes possible to falsify the existance of that god. but, when one refuses to give an immutable definition, one can not. " whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. " john laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word. 
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 /(emery) /the one single historic event that has had the biggest impact on the /world over the centuries is the resurrection of jesus. this is hardly possible, as the majority of people in the world were born, lived their life, and died, without ever knowing anything about christ. the majority of the rest of the world have decided that he is not who emery thinks he is. /(emery) /why were the writers of the new testament documents so convinced that /jesus really did rise from the dead? /we have four gospel accounts. i am leaving out all "proofs" of emery's which rely on quoting the bible as proof. circular reasoning, etc. there have been occasions already stated many times for later generations of xtians to change, edit, or otherwise alter the bible to fit their political gospel. and if we accept the bible as true just because the bible says it is true, then (to be fair) we have to do the same to the bhagavad-gita and the koran, both of which contradict the bible. enough said. /(emery) /yet we have no reason to believe these disciples to be immoral and dishonest. /we have no historic information that would lead us to the conclusion that /these people were not god-fearing people who sincerely and whole-heartedly /believed that the resurrection of their lord jesus was a real event. /and for what gain would they lie? to make a stand at that time meant /persecution, imprisonment, and perhaps even death. again, this is only the biblical account and there is no independent proof of any of this happening. it just isn't there. besides, simply being sincere or willing to die for your faith does not make your faith correct. there are muslims dying in bosnia right now; does the fact that they are willing to die for islam mean that islam is the correct religion? (emery) /history bears out the persecution of christians. roman historian, cornelius /tacitus, govenor of asia, in a.d. 112, writing of nero's reign, alluded to /the torture of christians in rome: all you have proven is that these people were tortured for their faith. that does not prove that their faith is true or correct; it just means that they were sincere in their beliefs. being willing to die for what you believe doesn't make your belief the truth. it's not that easy. and minority religions have always suffered torture; muslims suffer torture and harassment in india and bosnia today. all religions are harassed in china today. you haven't proven anything so far. /(emery) /with all the suffering and persecution that it meant to be a believer, it /would be quite probable that at least one of those in the supposed conspiracy /would come forward and confess that the whole thing was a big hoax. not if they didn't believe that it was a hoax. /(emery) /yet not one did. it seems rather reasonable that the disciples did not make /up the resurrection but sincerely believed that jesus had actually risen /from the dead; especially in light of the sufferings that came upon those /who believed. the followers of muhammad firmly believed in the miracles that the koran says muhammad performed. they were attacked and slaughtered for their beliefs. they didn't denounce muhammad or islam. if you are correct, then that means islam is the true faith. you see how stupid your proofs are? 
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 /(frank decenso) />i need to prioritize things in my life, and this board is not all that important />to me. of course it is. it forms a very big part of your self-respect. you come onto the board, thinking you're some sort of apologeticist for your faith, and you routinely get roasted over a grill for stupid theories and unfounded assumptions. /(frank decenso) /this board will have />to wait until (if ever) i can organize my life to fit it in. i tried dropping />out, but sieferman coerced me to come back. he won't this time. i doubt that sieferman has anything to do with you dropping out. it's probably closer to the truth to say that you don't have the cards to play in this game (because you insist on playing from a losing hand), and you're finally realizing it. you will lurk on the board, and keep quiet for a while, looking for an area where you are *certain* that you are correct, and then we'll see you pop back in again. of course, you then will say that you have merely returned because your life is now "in order". but we'll know better. 
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 john 12:24-26: "most assuredly, i say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls onto the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. "he who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. "if anyone serves me, let him follow me; and where i am, there my servant will be also. if anyone serves me, him my father will honor." why would i want an eternal life if i hate this one? again, you missed jesus's point. if you read the surrounding passages you would understand what jesus means by "life in the world." but as is, you bumbled around, asserted your standard axiom that the bible is bunk, and came up with the wrong idea. also, you do not know exactly what jesus means by eternal life. brian k., do you expect to jump in the middle of the quantum mechanics book and understand hermite polynomials having not read the surrounding material? why do you such with the bible? for an idea what jesus means by the world, look up references to it in your concordance. for a good description, the whole book of ecclesiastes is game. for eternal life, check out john 17:3, john 3:15-16. you will find that eternal life is quite different than what you think. eternal life starts now--an infinitely high quality of life living in fellowship with god. in short: even if your deity *does* exist, that doesn't automatically mean that i would worship it. i am content to live my own life, and fend for myself, so when i die, i can be proud of the fact that no matter where i end up, it will be because of *my* actions and *my* choices. if your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this, then so be it. i would much rather just cease to exist. but if your god wants my respect and my obedience, then it had better earn these; and if it does, then they will be very strong and true. if my diety exists, you would not just cease to exist. jesus talks of hell in luke 16:19-31. you've got to understand my point-of-view: i see christians spouting bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that will level all opposition. truth is, it's not. robert has never demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply; he just rattles them off day by day. some brazenly fly in the face of common sense and reality, and i point these out where i can. the truth is, is that it is not some sort of magic spell. the truth is is that you do not understand it, and enjoy not understanding it. christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book. wrong again. christianity is supposed to be relationship. you do not even know what christianity is and you are arguing against and in my opinion, you're bumbling about blindly making up entities where there aren't any, and depriving yourself of a true understanding and enjoyment of your life. as long as you keep your beliefs to yourself, i'll keep my beliefs to myself -- but as soon as you start waving them around, expect me to toss in my opinions, too. just as i make up such places as jericho, jerusalem, babylon, corinth, ephesus, susa, and such kings as nebuchanezzar, david, solomon, sennacherib, herod, pontius pilate . . . . but i guess then that you treat abraham lincoln as a myth like you do odin and zeus. 
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 : >: >> gilligan = sloth : >: >> skipper = anger : >: >> thurston howell iii = greed : >: >> lovey howell = gluttony : >: >> ginger = lust : >: >> professor = pride : >: >> mary ann = envy : >assorted monkeys= secular humanism : assorted headhunters - godless, heathen savagery : russian agent who looks like gilligan - godless communism : japanese sailor - godless barbarism : walter pigeon - godless bird turd : the mosquitos (bingo, bango, bongo, irving) - godless rock'n'roll : harold heckuba (phil silvers) - hollywood hedonism : john mcgiver - butterfly flicking : tonga, the fake apeman - deceit, lust : eva grubb - deceit, lust 
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 |> in article <1993apr21.145336.5912@ra.royalroads.ca>, |> > and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming, not |> > even the angels in heaven but only the father himself? dk was trying to play |> > god by breaking the seals himself. dk killed himself and as many of his |> > followers as he could. btw, god did save the children. they are in heaven, |> > a far better place. how do i know? by faith. |> it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes |> due to the tragedy. as such it maybe fills a need, however i'm |> getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack |> of food, and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven |> after a painful death. if the children are not being fed, whose fault is that? you and i have plenty of food on our tables while others starve. why is that? god gave us this earth to manage. i don't think we're doing a very good job of it. the only consolation i have for those suffering children is that they will be received into the kingdom of heaven where they will never thirst and never hunger again. peace be with you, malcolm lee :) |> cheers, |> kent |> sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 : probably not. but then, i don't pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it. : you don't really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do : you? if so, tell me where you live so i can be sure to steer well clear. i understand that they had the neccessary licenses and permits to own automatic weapons. : the public also has rights, and they should be placed above those of the : individual. go ahead, call me a commie, but you'd be singing a different : tune if i exercised my right to rape your daughter. he broke the law, he : was a threat to society, they did there job - simple. i haven't seen any proof (or even evidence) that the bd's had broken the law. if you have proof (or evidence), let's hear it. "the fbi said so" is not evidence. : i'll support them all (except no. 2) i guess there will always be people who wish to be peasants. the politicians prefer unarmed peasants 
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 |> deleted: vast quantities of carefully-annoted spew from "david koresh" |> i don't know about the rest of you, but i think mr. tice needs a hobby. he has one. he spent last summer telling everyone who doubted the word of the great perot that they were bigotted perot-bashers, right up to the moment he chickened out on them. he then kept quiet for a bit and then came back when perot re-entered. this seems appropriate, somehow...>:-)> then there is the rumour that loresh in fact survived the fire in a secret hideyhole and rose again on the third day only to be spirited away by fbi agents and disposed of in order to prevent a cult following. hah! i have it on the very *best* authority (mine) that koresh is whooping it up in a time-share condo in dallas with elvis, jfk, and (of course) j.r. "bob" dobbs, who also owns the place and everything else in texas. look for "koresh" sightings in the weekly world news and national enquirer in the coming months. * the_doge of south st. louis * * dobbs-approved media conspirator(tm) * * "one step beyond" -- sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 fm st. louis community radio * * "you'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- j.r. "bob" dobbs" * 
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 evolution, as i have said before, is theory _and_ fact. it is exactly the same amount of each as the existence of atoms and the existence of gravity. if you accept the existence of atoms and gravity as fact, then you should also accept the existence of evolution as fact. --andy i don't accept atoms or gravity as fact either. they are extremely useful mathematical models to describe physical observations we can make. other posters have aptly explained the atomic model. gravity, too, is very much a theory; no gravity waves have even been detected, but we have a very useful model that describes much of the behavior on objects by this thing we _call_ gravity. gravity, however, is _not_ a fact. it is a theoretical model used to talk about how objects behave in our physical environment. newton thought gravity was a simple vector force; einstein a wave. both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith, unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it. that takes a great leap of faith, which, of course, is what religion takes. evolution is no different. jim halat halat@bear.com are you serious?!!! here's an exercise next time you are in the barnyard. take *your* model and hold it directly above a fresh cowpie. then release the model. you will observe that on its own *your* model will assume a trajectory earthward and come to rest exactly where it belongs. watch out for splatters, particularly if you are wearing shorts when you perform this experiment. rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota 
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 = and i felt torn when i began to disagree with a lot of what the bible = (and my priests) told me; did it start getting a little uncomfortable? did your style start feeling a bit cramped? yes, that's exactly what i felt. my heart just felt that what i was being taught was *wrong* -- a basically good message, but framed in errors. i could not with a clear conscience accept that women were somehow not equal to men, that homosexuals are "guilty" of their lifestyle, that pride in one's work is a bad thing, that jesus died for me -- i don't want anybody to die for me, especially as an impersonal act where the person can't possibly even *know* me well enough to really know if i'm worth dying for or not. i was never able to accept the bit about jesus's death being a good thing. if that means that i'm just not comprehending a basic message of christianity, then so be it. maybe i'm just not compatible with christianity. i just refuse to follow rules blindly, and since i can't even convince myself that your god even exists in the way you describe it, i've got to just follow my own conscience in these matters. i know how that goes. knowing i couldn't and didn't want to live up to those impossibleand rather incovenient rules are what kept me outside, too. don't think that my morals are shoddy or nonexistent just because i don't believe in your god. i will not steal, and i will not murder -- not because i fear divine repudiation, but because these just *aren't* in my character. you may think there's nothing keeping me from just running around on a murdering spree, stealing things when i'm able, insulting people for the heck of it, because i'm not answerable to anyone; but you'd be wrong. i'm answerable to myself. a life like that would be a cheap life; i happen to want to earn respect in myself. 'till i met the man, that is. my initial break with christianity came after a lot of soul-searching and a lot of wondering why i could no longer feel the 'presence' of god with me. i finally decided that i had once "felt" this presence just as i had "felt" my mighty teddy bear beside me when i was a little tyke, protecting me from the monsters under the bed -- that i had believed in god just as i had believed in the teddy bear, as something of an emotional crutch to protect me from perceived dangers. since then, i've never abandoned the possibility that maybe your supernatural trinity does exist. but there are a few times when, in my darkened room by my bed, i have set aside everything i believe for a moment and called out to whatever's out there, because i want to know the truth even if it means abandoning everything i know. and i have not yet received an answer. = only when i truly listened to myself, body and soul, did i realize = that i could no longer honestly keep up the charade of being = christian. there is a higher truth in the universe, and christianity = just ain't it. any suggestions on what (or who or where) it might be, and why? nope. it may well be unknowable. scientists have suggested that the universe may be finite and wrap around on itself (the three-dimensional universe may be mapped onto a four-dimensional supersphere in the same way you can map a two-dimensional plane onto a three-dimensional sphere; see _sphereland_, the sequel to _flatland_, for more thoughts on this). our entire universe might just be an electron in a four- dimensional universe, which in turn may only be an insignificant speck in a universe above that, and so on and so forth until the variables become too much for us to even speculate on. that is, there's no possible way for us to know exactly how we came to be, so there's no reason at all to believe that your god exists nor had anything to do with it. "ok," you may say. "so now, if i'm just being good, am i doing good enough?" that's for you to answer. if you feel you're doing fine, then go ahead and ignore us foolish little christians. we can present what we've seen and experienced (providing our witness), but it isn't up to us to make that seed christians have provided me with nothing except quotes from your holy book, and all sorts of tactics to try to get me to believe: guilt trips, insinuations that i'm without morals, arguments from disbelief ("how can you possibly believe that god *doesn't* exist?"), and so forth. all i'm asking is for you to convince me. i want to be convinced, but it's not going to be easy. so much as you don't like what we're "selling", there just may be someone out there that can identify with it. methinks you could give us all a lesson in tolerance and back off. having had years upon years of contact with your religion from both the inside and the outside, i view it as harmful in many ways. it preys on people who want to find meaning in their lives, and once it's got these people, it teaches them to have pity (and sometimes starkly intolerant) of others who do not share these views. maybe you'll say that your religion doesn't teach that -- but i've got to judge christianity from the christians i know. i feel that it is entirely possible and good to have faith in one's self, and to be a positive influence on society for no better reason than that. so i hope that my words in this newsgroup will at least make some people think. i want christians to realize that there are perfectly valid lifestyles and opinions that have nothing to do with their deity whatsoever, and i want people who are considering christianity to realize that christianity does not hold the sole key to a happy, fulfilled life. i have known some very nice christians who have done some very nice things. i think what sets these people apart from the general masses is that they recognize that their religious beliefs may be wrong, and they know the weaknesses of their religion, yet they still decide to believe, but they keep their beliefs to themselves and do not think any less of people who don't agree with them. obviously, the debate on the veracity and reliability of the source of the christian's faith is far from conclusive, notwithstanding how vehemently we propose otherwise. precisely my point. you've still not given me a reason to be a christian instead of a buddhist or a moslem... = the nice thing about religion, if you lose yourself deeply enough in = it, is that eventually you'll be able to feel justified in most = anything you want to do. y'know your right. fortunately for everyone around me, i'm not religious. i'm a christian. ... just as the moslems aren't religious, and the buddhists aren't religious. who *is* religious, then? _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 date: 24 apr 1993 11:53:48 -0500 from: russell turpin <turpin@cs.utexas.edu> the diaries of the followers of the maharishi, formerly of oregon, are historical evidence. are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh (sp?) with the maharishi mahesh yogi here by any chance? i think bhagwan was in oregon with all the rolls royces. maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation and does the yogic flying stuff. bhagwan's group was a communal, free sex kind of thing. i think they both had beards, though. 
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 |> >armed to the teeth. a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons |> >to defend himself. a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence. |> faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at |> night with a knife to kill me for the $2 in my wallet, a .357 is considerably |> more persuasive than having devotions with him. |> tom albrecht give him the $2, leave the house and call the police. that's what i would do. i will not kill to protect mere possessions. peace be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 : nut or not, he was clearly a liar. he said he would surrender after : local radio stations broadcast his message, but he didn't. then he : said he would surrender after passover, but he didn't. the fbi said he would surrender. we don't know what he said. 
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 i would really appreciate if when someone brought something like this up they didn't back out when someone asked for details. excuse me! i am -not trying to back out- josh, maybe you should try to make an informed responce when your are trying to pack, and your references are packed! and someone responses like you did. (no grin). 
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 |> >these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had |> >expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a |> >direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god |> >is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. |> >remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to |> >god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the |> >age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is |> >repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just |> >for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile |> >alike. |> sorry if this is late for the thread, but... |> i thought god was supposed to be constant and never-changing. how do |> you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above? god never changes. he still loves us. sending jesus was one of his attempts to reconcile with mankind. the nature of god has not changed. |> also, while we're at it: |> 1. how do you reconcile "a kind and loving god!!" with the |> judeo-christian view that sin was at one time "immediately punishable |> by death"? was killing people for sinning god's way of showing |> kindness and love? sinning in the face of god was punishable by immediate death. there are several ot passages to back this up. god is god. he cannot tolerate the prescence of sin in his midst. and the israelites knew this! and still, some of them chose to disobey and were destroyed. were these people kind and loving themselves? god gave them every break he could but in the end, he really had no choice in the matter. seeing as how we were failing to achieve salvation on our own, he sent his son to die for us - to be the ultimate sin offering. now we live in the age of |> 2. is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of |> having made a mistake? he sent his son as a consolation to us, out of love. |> 3. now that we are "living in the age of grace", does this mean that |> for our sins, god now damns us to eternal hell after we die, rather |> than killing us immediately? if so, is this eternal damnation an |> example of "a kind and loving god!!"? hey, let's be fair for a moment here. kind and loving does not mean a free ride. there is an amount of give and take as in any relationship. parents are supposed to be kind and loving but does that mean that children can do whatever they want? not! part of being a parent means administering punishment when the child is at fault. part of being a parent means giving instruction. god tests us through the trial of life such that we may grow stronger. he teaches what is right and what is wrong. the consequences of our actions are made clear to us, be it heaven or be it hell. if god did not follow through with what he has warned us about, he would not be a very good parent. in parenting, if a parent issues a warning but does not follow through with it, the children will not take that parent's words very seriously. god does the same by telling us who have ears to hear what to do and what not to do. by life's trials, we see the folly of doing our own will rather than his. he warns us about the consequences of rejecting him when it comes time for judgement. do we follow him? i will. peace be with you, malcolm lee :) |> just curious. |> --dave wood 
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 |> so, do you adhere to the ten commandments? jesus did and so do i. peace be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes... i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead. the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live. he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies. [...deleted...] unfortunately, i think you've got it figured pretty well. i also ask myself the question "why did they plan for so many months. why was this so important to them? what was the government really up to? why did they seal the warrant? were they after koresh or were they after the first and second amendments, among others? allow me to play devils advocate a moment jg: didn't expect to find you in the devil's role, stephen, but these are the times that try men's souls. o what was called many months of *planning* was probably the intelligence collecting: paperwork and interviews. nine months, as i understand it. no doubt this accounts for a significant amount of the time as government efficiency in spending our tax dollars would certainly seek its absolute minimum in such an event. but my gut instinct says there is more at hand. it took some careful preplanning to demonize d.k. to such an extent. the attack meshes well with more restrictive gun control legislation that seems to be the agenda of the day. it also fits a pattern of increased government interference in personal religious beliefs. [randy weaver is now on trial]. o it's important to them because it justifies budgets. no quarrel here. the big bang theory is always apt at appropriation time. they just don't have to possess a single motive. o the warrant was sealed to keep from jeopardizing the the government's case. i certainly think publication of the warrant undermines the government's case since it makes no claims of illegal action. therefore the federal judge had reason to seal it. but i am reminded of senator frank church's remark that "secrecy is the trademark of a totalitarian government." there is rarely sufficient motive to seal a warrant in a nation of free people. o there was probably no one actually exercising oversite. instead, a system of bureaucratic rules has been set up for such incidents. like computer programs -- these have to be debugged periodically. especially when used in fringe areas. (cf. the "hostage rescue" program). therefore -- no one was in charge. and no one can reasonably be held responsible. how can i argue with irrefutable logic? i have long suspected that the government has become a mindless machine and now you go and confirm my worst fears! has it become a beast that is programmed simply to say "kiss my toe and you get your piece of the pie?" i suspect bugs in the program arise when agents or those who love this critter have independent thoughts. o what they were after, generally speaking, is protecting their jobs, budgets, and paychecks. and watching terminator ii. we waited 444 days for our hostages to come home from iran. we gave these people 51 days. 186 died at the alamo. 86 died that day in waco. yes, 186 seeds for a new republic. and 86 for...? rev. 11:9 ...and they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. why no burial? is is that the bodies of the witnesses will be said to be property of the state? or just a typical bureaucratic delay? rev. 11:10...and they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. stephen, have you sensed that some have been rejoicing lately....? -- j -- | stephen joe gaut | in the super-state, it really does not <f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> | matter at all what actually happened. remember the alamo | truth is what the government chooses to remember waco | tell you. justice is what it wants to happen. --jim garrison, new orleans, la. 
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 f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes... i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead. the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live. he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies. [...deleted...] unfortunately, i think you've got it figured pretty well. i also ask myself the question "why did they plan for so many months. why was this so important to them? what was the government really up to? why did they seal the warrant? were they after koresh or were they after the first and second amendments, among others? allow me to play devils advocate a moment jg: o what was called many months of *planning* was probably the intelligence collecting: paperwork and interviews. o it's important to them because it justifies budgets. o the warrant was sealed to keep from jeopardizing the the government's case. o there was probably no one actually exercising oversite. instead, a system of bureaucratic rules has been set up for such incidents. like computer programs -- these have to be debugged periodically. especially when used in fringe areas. (cf. the "hostage rescue" program). therefore -- no one was in charge. and no one can reasonably be held responsible. baloney. either the programmer or the people who decided to let their actions be governed by the program are clearly at fault. if you neglect to do maintenance on your car, and the steering goes out, you _are_ responsible for the death of all those kids on the sidewalk your car subsequently drives over "on its own". gene battin battin@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu no .sig yet 
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 a "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone* participates. otherwise it's not silent, now is it? non-religious reasons for having a "moment of silence" for a dead classmate: (1) to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased , (2) to give the classmates a moment to grieve together, (3) to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate *in the context of the school*, (4) to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it's not disruptive later. yeah, all well and good. the fact is, though, that the pro-school prayer types have tried to use a moment of silence as a way to get prayer back. at my high school for instance, our dear principal ended the moment of silence with "amen." i can certainly see opposing the "amen" -- but that doesn't require opposing a moment of silence. i'll back off when they do. does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here? i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren't going to back off when they can't even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray pro-choice anti-roe - e. elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare. 
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 [lots of good points re mormons in the us] the founding fathers of the us were hardly great on religious freedoms. at least one history i have read formed the opinion that they left for the us not to practice religious freedom but to practice religious intolerance. bzzt. thank you for playing. you're confusing the puritans/pilgrims with the founding fathers. difference of ~150 years and a much different culture... phill hallam-baker phil fraering |"seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff. pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|like how the ancient mayans had televison." repo man 
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 this was obviously a lot different than the ordinary fbi adventure. i believe that the federal officers had a conflict of interests here. throught out the whole affair, it seamed to me that they were chiefly concerned with saving face rather than saving lifes. its true that the bd were resisting arrest and that they should have surrendered when they first realized that these where federal officers. but they didn`t. i'm not sure what you mean by 'saving face' unless you are confusing the fbi with the batf who are the ones who were in charge of the original search warrant. but when they didn`t, the fbi should not have treated as a hostage situation, it wasn't. i think more discussions, possible independant negotiators, and family intervention should have been used. independant negotiators? what was there to negotiate? any sort of plea bargin has to be brought to the court, the negotiators can't negotiate charges or sentences. fbi negotitators did make a deal for the dividians to come out. koresh showed he was not negotiating in good faith and there is no reason to believe independent negotiators would have done any better. 
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 dear brother bill, one way or another -- so much for patience. too bad you couldn't just wait. was the prospect of god's message just too much to take? so do you want the president to specifically order each and every activity of the fbi, or what? and how willing are you to blame reagan and bush, directly, for the incidents that took place in the war on drugs in their administration? are you going to blame bush for the fact that weaver's wife, infant, son were killed? it happened while he was president. ... or consider the thousands in central america killed by those brave cia/nsc sponsored "freedom fighters." thus far, slick willie is a piker. steve lamont, sciviguy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource/uc san diego/la jolla, ca 92093-0608 "my other car is a car, too." - bumper strip seen on i-805 
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 i'm greatly in need of jurgen moltmann's book god in creation: an ecological doctrine of creation. if you have a copy you're willing to part with, i'd love to hear from you soon. you may call me at 312-702- 8367 or e-mail me. susan soric independent agent susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu 
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 no, a no-knock warrant is in clear violation of the 4th amendment. okay, what about the fact that they were tipped off - they shouldn't have opened fire - right? wrong! think about this: i am a drug dealer and my competition wants to do away with me. they call me and tell me that the feds are on their way with a no-knock warrant. so, being moronic sheep we wait, with our guns holstered. now, instead of the feds, in comes my competition, and we're history. the only acceptable answer to a no-knock warrant is blazing guns! i may sound paranoid, but our government is out of control, and killing a few federal officers make knock some sense back into it. hmm. the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly marked as officers and yelling "police" repeatedly. this is used every day to bust drug houses. the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight. as for not knocking, it's a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight. usually this strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so commonly, now would it? whether or not it was appropriate to use this strategy on the bd is not my point, since i don't think any of us have enough information to make a clear judgement on this issue. i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day. furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects. do you suggest that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers's badges? just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects? how far can they reasonably go to identiy themselves? what do you suggest they can do which can't be faked by the "competition"? even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's not an excuse to murder police. in the case of the bd's, there was almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who would pretend to be cops. *isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___ * * _____/_o_\_____ * twinkle, twinkle, little .sig, *(==(/_______\)==) * keep it less than 5 lines big. * \==\/ \/==/ 
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 | for an illustrative example in the opposite direction, it may be possible | to add services to an insurance contract and reduce the premium. if you | add preventative services and this reduces acute care use, then the total | premium may fall. women who are known not to want abortion services, for example, might be judged to be more likely to require prenatal care & coverage for childbirth... which can be an order of magnitude more expensive than abortion. this topic should really be restricted to talk.abortion, which exists to relieve t.r.m & t.p.m of abortion flamage. c j silverio cj@sgi.com ceej@well.sf.ca.us "in melbourne, fla., meanwhile, anti-abortion marchers rallied to celebrate the death of dr. david gunn. "praise god!" they shouted." (ny daily news, fri. march 12, p. 20) 
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 : i will clarify my earlier quote. god's laws were originally written for : the israelites. jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to : all people, not just the jews. gentiles could be part of the kingdom of : heaven through the saving grace of god. i never said that the law was made : obsolete by jesus. just for reference, here's the earlier quote: malcolm lee (mlee@post.royalroads.ca) wrote in reference to leviticus 21:9 and deuteronomy 22:20-25: : these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had : expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a : direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god : is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately : punishable. : remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to : god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in : the age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there : is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and : not just for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew : and gentile alike. these are two conflicting statements. to say one is a clarification of the other is a breach of logic. i don't mind people shifting their position on an issue. it irritates me when it is said under the premise that no change was made. what about deuteronomy 22:20-25? is it wrong now? did jesus change that? : if anything, he clarified the law such as in that quote you made. in the : following verses, jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon : the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended. sure he does this. however, he doesn't address the notion of stoning non-virgin brides, because this needs no clarification. are you going to deny that deuteronomy 22:20-25 is not patently clear in its intent? : i think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of : modern-day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe : in it. what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart? i'll agree that there is a lot of modern day pharisees that know the bible from end to end and don't believe in it. depending on how they use this knowledge, they can be scary. they can argue any position they desire, and back it up with selected parts of the bible. such pharisees include david koresh and adolph hitler. i will qualify this by saying *i don't know* if they actually believed what they were preaching, but the ends certainly made the means look frightening. however, just as scary are those that don't know much of the bible, but believe every word. in fact, this is probably scarier, since there are far more of these people, from what i've seen. in addition, they are very easy to manipulate by the aforementioned pharisees, since they don't know enough to debate with these people. : christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's : perspectives and personal conduct. and it demands obedience to god's will. no, it demands obedience to a book. if god came down and personally told me how i should behave, then i would say that i would be doing god's will by doing it. however, if preachers, pastors, and evangelists tell me to obey the will of a book written by people who have been dead for close to two millenia (even longer for the ot), even if i follow everything in it with my heart, i could scarcely be honest with myself by saying i'm doing the will of god. : some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not. that is : their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too. well, if god respects it so much, how come there is talk in the bible about eternal damnation for non-believers? i see little respect eminating from the god of the bible. i see a selfish and spiteful god. : god be with you, not yours, thanks ;) : malcolm lee :) rob lanphier lanphi872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu lanph872@uidaho.edu and for the curious, here is my earlier post: hmm, for a book that only applied to the israelites (deuteronomy), jesus sure quoted it a lot (mt 4: 4,7,10). in addition, he alludes to it in several other places (mt 19:7-8; mk 10:3-5; jn 5:46-47). and, just in case it isn't clear jesus thought the old testament isn't obsolete, i'll repeat the verse in matthew which gets quoted on this group a lot: "do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets; i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. i tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished. anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. for i tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (mt 5:17-20 niv, in pretty red letters, so that you know it's jesus talking) this causes a serious dilemma for christians who think the old testament doesn't apply to them. i think that's why paul harvey likes quoting it so much ;). 
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 ken arromdee writes did they not know that these men were federal officers? do you know what a "no-knock search" is? yes, but tell me how you think your question answers my question. if the bds didn't know immediately that they were dealing with feds (uniform apparel, insignia), they must have figured it out in pretty short order. why did they keep fighting? they seemed awfully ready for having been attacked "without warning". oh, bloody sorry old chap, why didn't you tell me you were a federale? tough luck, eh? what's that? you say you're not dead yet? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84125">
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 i would like to add my support for a misc.taoism discussion group. i applaud the enthusiam shown by the person posting <79899@cup.portal.com> "thyagi@cup.portal.com" (i read in alt.magick), but i differ with him/her in believing that at least some minimal parameters should be agreed upon. i recommend that the depth of generality, indeed, of ambiguity, in this newsgroup (misc.taoism) be maximized. calling the tradition old or new is rather unnecessary, and only leads to foolish squabbles. there is no doubt that nature is a splendid teacher, whether she appears in the words spoken by a tree or by a stream, a microbe or a star. let us not limit 'misc.taoism' to 'philosophy'. but if we don't limit it to *something*, the discussion degenerates into a big amorphous glob. other questions thyagi proposes are: 1) what is this 'actual process of reality'? 2) why is taoism based upon an assumption? 3) why does this assumption concern knowledge and what can be known? 4) what is the value of not knowing? 5) what is 'a tao'? what does it mean to be 'tao'd'? it seems to me that these questions more properly fall into the category of "general metaphysics". i would prefer any misc.taoism to deal more closely with topics and works more closely associated with at least "semi-orthodox" taoism: with established classic works definitely included and works like mantak chia's argued about! i think "neo-taoism" should be excluded or get its own group (what i mean by this is "humpty-dumpty taoism", in which taoism means whatever a poster says it means.) this "alt.taoism" could also be a refuge for debates about what "taoism *really* means" or speculations on sexual alchemy, etc.. e.g. (from thyagi again): taoism does what the hell it wants, i tell you. taoism doesn't exist. 'taoism' is no more real that 'tao'. decide, now. real or not real? exist or not-exist? when shall we be certain kent gloomily predicts (quoting from thyagi's article): however most traffic in the group will likely concern the philosophical, secular taoism averred by alan watts and niels bohr, and yogic taoism as it pertains to medical, sexual and martial techniques. i think that discussions of this nature are not completely out of place. what's happening is that that the term "taoism" is becoming completely polluted and trivialized like the words "magic", "alchemy", "zen," etc., by writers appropriating the word to mean whatever they want. this is seen by the spate of new age books entitled "the tao of" this, that, and everything else. (with respect to some exceptions like the books by jou, tsung-hwa.) any other comments/ideas? i look forward to seeing them. on balance, i say let misc.taoism rip and let the chips fall where they may. if it just gets filled up with college freshmen asking about the tao of sex then it will have been a failure and people will post to these groups just as they do now. tim p. scott sending from: megatek corporation (619)455-5590 ext.2610 9645 scranton rd. san diego, ca 92121-3782 usa fax: (619)453-7603 internet: tims@megatek.com [or] ...uunet!megatek!tims 
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 a "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone* participates. otherwise it's not silent, now is it? non-religious reasons for having a "moment of silence" for a dead classmate: (1) to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased , (2) to give the classmates a moment to grieve together, (3) to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate *in the context of the school*, (4) to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it's not disruptive later. yeah, all well and good. the fact is, though, that the pro-school prayer types have tried to use a moment of silence as a way to get prayer back. at my high school for instance, our dear principal ended the moment of silence with "amen." i can certainly see opposing the "amen" -- but that doesn't require opposing a moment of silence. i see it as the camel's nose. i'll back off when they do. does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here? i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren't going to back off when they can't even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray i'm willing to take my chances on winning the whole thing, personally. eric rescorla ekr@eitech.com "what we've got here is failure to communicate." 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84128">
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 |> recently, i've asked myself a rather interesting question: what right does |> god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ?? he is god. in other words, the right of might. |> in his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live |> according to his rules, we will burn in hell. well, with what right can god |> make that desicion? he is god. in other words, the right of might. |> let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates every |> one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). what then happens, is |> that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. well, i didn't ask to be |> created. god granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint. in other words, he can do it, he did it, and your in no position to argue about it. |> let's make an analogue. if a scientist creates a unique living creature (which |> has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the right to |> expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...? the scientist creates the living creature to examine it, poke and prod it and learn about its behaviour. he will kill it if it becomes a threat. for example, let's say the scientist creates a tyrannosaurus rex and it breaks free of its confines and starts devouring the population. the scientist would not hesitate in killing it. god creates us to be his loving companions. he knows whether we are true in our love for him or not. and he lets us know the consequences of rejecting him. god cannot abide by sin. by rejecting god, a person becomes an enemy of god, one that must be killed by him. note: i say that god and god alone is worthy to be judge, jury and executioner. we are not called to carry out such duties because we are not worthy. in other words, you better do what this god wants you to do, or else! |> who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so |> righteous as god likes us to believe? are all christians a flock of sheep, |> unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? god is god. who are we to question the creator? if you doubt god's doing in certain situations, do you claim to know a better solution? would you be playing the role of god? in other words, its his game, he made the rules, and if you know whats good for you you'll play his game his way. 
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 |> in article <1993apr20.144825.756@ra.royalroads.ca> |> >if one does not follow the teachings of christ, he is not christian. |> >too easy? |> that would exclude most self-proclaimed "christians." |> do you follow the ten commandments? as a matter of fact, yes i do or at least i strive to. i will not be so proud as to boast that my faith is 100%. i am still human and imperfect and therefore, liable to sin. thankfully, there is opportunity for repentence and forgiveness. god be with you, malcolm lee :) it sounds like you're modifying your definition of christian to anyone who *strives* to follow the teachings of christ. do i read you correctly? and just what constitutes *strive*? did jesus say this and define just what "striving" means? can you give an example of striving that is insufficient to qualify one as a christian and thus condemns one to eternal damnation in fiery torture? do you self-proclaim yourself a christian and if so on what basis? 
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 please allow me to explain myself. in 1838, the governor of missouri, casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities capser, before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter-day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion, perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine, at the command of brigham young? 
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 greetings! could anybody here give me any information about new age religion? about the history, the teachings, ...??? or may be suggestions what books i should read in order to get those info? any help would be greatly appreciated. contact: watchman fellowship p.o. box 171194 holladay, ut 84117-1194 ask for their book: the new age and space age heresies the new age in our schools 
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 robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying things like "it is held that..." (cf. "kermit" thread). on what exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?" who is that "holds that" luke meant what you said he meant? whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to "look at the bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who see biblical things differently from you? are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it? just curious, rick anderson librba@byuvm.bitnet when robert refers to the "orthodox", he is talking about the historical position of the christian faith. such things are derived from biblcal texts through the centuries by the apocolic fathers of the faith. you are right that people read things differently in the bible, and this is alright in parts like parables and such forth. however, when it comes to the essential doctrines of the historical orthodox christan beliefs, there is only one correct way to read it. for example, either the doctrine of the trinity is true, or it is false. yes, people read the texts differently, but only one position is true. they both cannot be. according to the text, the doctrine is true and has always existed. therefore, when people like joseph smith come along with a vision and thinks he can undo centuries of a doctrine that is supported by the bible, people consider him a cult. 
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 do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not? the bd's contradicted scripture in their actions. they were not christian. simple as that. perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed. ask any true-believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd's. even the 7th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult, which was what they were. well, if they were satanists, or followers of an obscure religion, then i would be sure that christians would in unison condemn and make this to a show case. you might be sure, but you would also be wrong. and does not this show the dangers with religion -- in order word a mind virus that will make mothers capable of letting their small children burn to ashes while they scream? i suspect the answer to this question is the same as the answer to, "do not the actions of the likes of stalin show the dangers of atheism?" 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84135">
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 why should anyone (check: let's restrict this to christians, why do *we*) want to find "commandments" in the books regarded as scripture? what's going on? i will pass on psychologizing answers (whether dismissive or more open) as not the kind of issue to deal with here -- the question is what is the *theological* point involved? and it has been quoted "at" me often enough by those who don't believe i take it seriously, that jesus (is said to have) said, "if you love me, you will obey my commands." [john 14:15] i am, like any christian, the slave of christ, and it is my will that i should do as he wills me to do. i am (also, or instead) his younger brother, but still under his direction, though we both call god "abba." christians, therefore, will try to find what it is that their lord commands them, and discovering it will feel obligated to do it, or to confess their failure. readers here may set aside the theologizing jargon (such as "slaves of christ") -- the point is that adherents of a religion *will* read the texts (whether classified as "inspired" or not) that are held up as models, in an effort to find application to their own situations. this practice ranges from "devotional" reading of sermons and the like to the exegesis of canon- ical scripture as "the word of god." and at the highest pitch, this leads to a question of whether we *can* find in inspired scripture something that can act as "absolute" guidance for our actions. the problem is in finding out just *what* it is our lord commands. i am going to set aside for this essay one major direction in which christians have looked for these commands, namely christian tradition. that is not because *i* reject tradition, but because my primary audience in this essay is protestants, who deny tradition a determinative value, in favor of the witness of scripture. the question i want to deal with is, what commandments can we find from our lord in scripture? and that turns out to be a hard question. [ if any of my protestant inquisitors would *like* to turn the discussion to the authority of tradition, i can accomodate them :-), unlike *most* protestants, episcopalians admit claims from a) scripture b) reason and c) tradition on roughly equal standing. ] earlier in john than my quote above, we read [john 13:34] "i give you a new commandment: love one another." this is the only place in the nt where christians are given an explicit commandment, with the context commenting on its imperative mode pronouncement by jesus. at the same meal [so we *readers* infer, since it is *not* in john, but in the synoptics] jesus says, "take this [bread]; this is my body." [mark 14:22, cf. matthew 26:26, luke 22:19, 1 corinthians 11:24] the mode is imperative (greek _labete_), and hence this, too, is a "commandment." in *both* cases we have to *infer* that the command is directed to a wider circle than the immediate collocation of disciples -- because we judge the evangelist's point in mentioning it (with the disciples by then mostly or entirely dead) is that *we* are expected to follow this as a commandment from our lord. in the case of communion, paul's mention (at least; this is probably true of the evangelists also) implies an ongoing ritual liturgy in which these words operate to "bind" christians to the original command to his disciples, as a continuing commandment to the christian community. i am entirely comfortable with this inference, but i *must* point out that it is there, between us and the occasion on which jesus spoke the command. i take it as a clear inference, at the very least the evangelist's notion, that *all* christians are called to love one another, in jesus' command directed at the disciples. but i have to call attention to the inference. the command cannot apply to me without the generalization from the specific context of its statement to my own context as a "disciple" of christ. all reading of scripture has to make such inferences, to get any sense out of the text whatsoever. this is a general problem in reading these texts -- we cannot read them at all without our *own* understanding of our native languages in which we (normally) read the (translated) texts, and without *some* appreciation of the original context (and at points, the original languages, when english misleads us.) i am going to presume, in what follows, that we have the *general* problem of how to read scripture under control [ i don't *really* think this is true, but it will suffice for my current purposes. ] i will address only the issues that arise when we have already coped with the understanding of a 2000 year old text from another world than the one we live in. questions at that level only introduce more reser- vations about the commandments issue than will be found stipulating that we can read the texts as the original audience might have done. among the reasons we have for seeing john's _agapate allelou_ as a *general* commandment (not merely an instruction by jesus to this disciples on that one occasion), and one linking it to the synoptic "great commandment" is that we have criticism, from jesus, about limiting our love to those whom we congenially associate with. in matthew 5:43ff we read, "you have learnt how it was said: 'you must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. but i say to you: love your enemies." in fact, the leviticus context quoted does not say 'hate your enemy' -- it is merely the common human presumption. (and leviticus is at pains to say that the "love" should extend to strangers amongst the people of israel.) luke, in expanding on this same q context, goes on to have jesus say. "even sinners love those who love them." [6:27] all of this suggests [quite strongly, i'd say :-)] that *limiting* the scope of the "new commandment" is not quite what jesus has in mind. in short, inference *leads me* to generalizing the actual text to a command that is "in force" on christians, and with objects not limited to other trickier than the _agapate allelou_ or institution of communion, there is the case of the "great commission" where (matthew 10, mark 6) the twelve are sent out to evangelize, "proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close at hand." the verb is imperative (_ke:russete_), but the context is rather specific to the twelve, and there are further specifiers (as in "do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any samaritan town" -- the lukan parallels are even more specific to jesus' final journey to jerusalem) which make it harder to see this generalizing to all christians than the previous examples. that hasn't prevented christians from making such an inference; what i have to call attention to is that such inference is not justified in the text, nor (unlike the first two cases i cite) by the rhetoric of the evangelist urged on the reader. still, paul seems to have felt obliged to "proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close at hand" even (contrary to jesus' instructions to the 12 :-)) to the gentiles, to the ends of the earth. so, christians after him have also taken this as a "commandment" in the sense of john 14:15. do i "accept" this? i don't know. it is surely rather speculative. but you see how the ripples of inference spread out from the text that is the pretext -- christians (may) infer a general commandment, applicable to all, from what is presented in the gospels as a specific occasion. i do not (necessarily) object to this kind of generalization -- but i *insist* that people who make it *must* have an understanding that they are *reasoning* (at some considerable length) from what we actually *have* in scripture. there are *assumptions* involved in this reasoning, and *these* are *not* themselves scriptural (though people will do their best to "justify" their assumptions by other references to scripture -- which simply adds more inference into the mix!) let's move on to the "great commandment" -- that we should love god with our whole hearts and minds and souls. this is, perhaps, the synoptic "equivalent" of john's _agapate allelou_. and yet, it is not presented as a commandment, in our texts. rather, the context is controversy with the pharisees. to cite matthew [22:34ff] "but when the pharisees heard that he had silenced the sadducees they got together and, to disconcert him, one of them put a question, "master, which is the greatest commandment of the law?" it is by no means obvious here (though i accept it as such) that jesus' answer is meant to be a commandment *to christians*. he is answering a polemic from his enemies. [ mark's account, in 12:28-34 casts the answer in a far more positive light as (so the "scribe" in this version says) "far more important than any holocaust (i need to point out that this word originates in the context of animal sacrifice; forget the nazis for this) or sacrifice." luke is intermediate -- he has a lawyer posing the question "to disconcert" jesus, and gets the good samarian parable for his pains [ luke 10:25-37 ]. the contexts here are so confusingly various that one could be forgiven for drawing *no* inferences :-) in *no* account is this said as if it were obviously to be taken as a commandment binding on christians -- though i think it an entirely reasonable conclusion in each case that jesus thinks it to be so. the point is that our mental gears have to grind a cycle or so to get to any conclusion from all of this about what we are commanded to do, by jesus. and all of this is contingent on our understanding the point of jesus' use of the torah in the (all quite different) gospel accounts, and the application of such a context to *us*. the different contexts among the synoptics are curious. it should be noted that only in luke do we get the "fixing" of this command by the parable of the good samaritan. we may look for an analogous *intent* in matthew, where 7:12 gives the "golden rule" as "the meaning of the law and the prophets" (and where we may also hear an echo of hillel saying the same, a generation before jesus.) if we make these associations (which i think are entirely reasonable), we are -- again -- indulging in inference. the texts do not *explicitly* support us; rather, we *read* the texts as having this kind of inter-relationship. current literary theory calls this "intertextuality." my discussion of why the _agapate allelou_ "has" to apply beyond the community of the disciples, and beyound the circle of christian believers, applies again here, to buttress a conclusion that this *is* (despite the presentation not saying so explicitly) a "commandment" to christians. few christians would disagree with my conclusions -- but i *must* point out that they *are* conclusions, they *depend* on rather elaborate chains of reasoning that are simply not present in the texts, themselves. the contextual problem keeps coming up, more and more severely as we look at those sayings of jesus that are not so universally taken by christians as commandments. and we get some really hard cases. take divorce. mark is pretty clear, "the man who divorces his wife and marries another is guilty of adultery against her." [ 10:11, cf. luke 16:18 ] -- except that matthew has an escape clause [ "except in the case of fornication", 5:31 ]. this seems to be a rather clear "commandment" (whether or not we take matthew's reservation); and some christians, to this day, take it so. but some don't, at least in practice. this is rather peculiar; it is not as if jesus were not explicit about this (whereas he says nothing at all about some of the things people gnash their teeth over.) how is it possible, if the commands of christ are clear, that matthew can so disagree with the other evangelists of the synoptic tradition? i'm going to continue this examination, into ever-murkier waters, but this is enough to start with. the theme is: "finding commandments in scripture is an exercise in inference; our inferences are informed by our assumptions, that is, our own cultural biases." i have, so far, identified a very few "commandments" that are generally accepted by all christians -- and yet in these, already, some of the difficulties start to surface. it is these difficulties i want to discuss in my next essay on this topic. the divorce commandment already strikes at some of the difficulties: i see almost no evidence that the people who are so eager to find commandments to condemn *me* with, spend any time at all writing nasty screeds to soc.couples or misc.legal about the horrors or viciousness of divorce, or demanding that us law refuse to allow it, or refuse "unrepentant divorcees" places in their churches. [ that is not to say that divorce *doesn't* enter into consideration in general -- it is most definitely a matter of concern, in even the most "liberal" church circles. for example, a (wildly) liberal episcopalian priest of my aqauintence, in a (wildly) liberal diocese, has recommended to a couple who approached him to marry them that they have a "private" secular ceremony before a judge, so that the "public" ceremony he celebrated need not go through an agonizing "examination" by officials who would just as soon not take on this role of interpreting the commands we are faced with as christians. this, in a church that was effectively created by a famous divorce! ] michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 at my high school for instance, our dear principal ended the moment of silence with "amen." an extremely good example of "circumstantial evidence!" every time these right-wing control-freaks start spouting about prayer in schools, i get this nagging commentary from the sermon on the mount [matt: 6:5-6] "and when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them. i tell you solemnly, they have had their reward. but when you pray, go to your private room and, when you have shut your door, pray to your father who is in that secret place." but no. they want public prayers, the better to manipulate children. "amen" indeed. when the pro-school-prayer types stop trying to sneak religion in, i'll stop opposing everything that even looks remotely like religion, thank you. i hope you don't mind if i say "amen" to this? :-) michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 in god, whose word i praise, in god i trust; i will not be afraid. what can mortal man do to me? psalm 56:4 (niv) 
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 when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question? in paraphrase: on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets (7 major and 12 minor) and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew 5:14-19? what is the source of this pseudo-doctrine? who is the pseudo-teacher? who is the great deceiver? ok, here's at least one christian's answer: jesus was a jew, not a christian. in this context matthew 5:14-19 makes sense. matt 5:17 "do not think that i [jesus] came to abolish the law or the prophets; i did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." jesus lived under the jewish law. however, he was the culmination of the promises of the prophets. he came to *fulfill* the prophecies and fully obey god's purposes. verse 18 says "for truly i say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished." the key to this verse imho is the last phrase. jesus, as the fulfillment of the law, "accomplished" what the law was supposed to accomplish. jesus did not say that he was the fulfillment of the law, and, unless i'm mistaken, heaven and earth have not yet passed away. am i mistaken? and, even assuming that one can just gloss over that portion of the word of jesus, do you really think that "all is accomplished?" verse 19: "whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." taken in the context of jesus teaching jewish people about living lives under the law, this makes sense. then why didn't jesus say "any jew who annuls ..." in v. 19? are you saying that all of jesus' recorded words mean nothing to gentiles? are you really saying that jesus only spoke for and to the jews? jesus didn't mention your name, does that mean he wasn't speaking to you? when you read the words of jesus, do you think he is speaking to someone other than you? in general, it appears that jesus is responding to some criticism he must have received about "doing away with the law." that was not jesus' intent at all. you said above that jesus was the "fulfillment" of the law. are you saying that does not mean "doing away with the law"? he had come to earth to live the law as it should be lived and fulfill the promises made by god to his people all the way back to eve [gen 3:15-the serpent will bruise your heel, but *he* will bruise his head.] gen3:15(jps) i will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; they shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel. gen3:15(nrsv) i will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel." gen3:15(kjv) and i will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. looks like your translation has taken a few liberties with the word? jesus appeared to be "doing away with the law" because he did not honor the traditions of men as equal to the law of god. he regularly locked horns with the religious leaders of the day because he would not conform to *their* rules, only god's law. in the matthew passage jesus is defending his dedication to the law and defending himself against his accusors. almost the entire sermon on the mount (matt. 5-7) is dedicated to helping the jewish people understand the true intent of the law, sweeping away the clutter which had been introduced by the pharasees and their traditions. only "helping the jewish people?" in galatians 3:23-26, paul describes the relationship of jesus to the law in this way: [23] but before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [24] therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to christ, that we may be justified by faith. [25] but now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [26] for you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus. i believe this says that after christ was revealed, the law had served it's purpose, i.e. "our tutor to lead us to christ," and now, "we are no longer under a tutor." the law has been "fulfilled" as christ said he would do. you are using your interpretation of paul as an argument against the clear words of jesus? god, the author of the old law, and the christ/man, jesus, are the same personality. therefore, the old law and the new testament (the "last will and testament" of jesus) are based on the same moral principles. it makes sense that many of the principles in the old law are re-expressed in christianity. "re-expressed?" care to define that a bit better? on the other hand, now that the law has fulfilled it's purpose and what? are heaven and earth gone away? where did they go? is all accomplished, for example revelations? explain please. christians relate to god through christ, not the law, it also makes sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to represent the "mysteries" of this new relationship. i.e. baptism representing christ's death, burial, and resurrection (rom. 6:3-8), the lord's supper as a memorial to his sacrifice (i cor. 11:26), and sunday as a day of worship commemorating his resurrection (matt 28:1ff, acts 20:7) again, your interpretation of paul versus the clear word of jesus. do you see any problems here? when did heaven and earth go away? when was all accomplished? ok, that's one christian's explanation. i don't claim to have all these issues completely settled even in my own mind and i welcome other christians to offer other alternatives. please excuse the long posting. thanks for your interest if you have read this far... 
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 in <1993apr24.214843.10940@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu i can certainly see opposing the "amen" -- but that doesn't require opposing a moment of silence. i already responded to this on one dimension, but afterthoughts cause me to make another, independent reply. the problem with a "moment of silence" is that it is not an even-handed way of "allowing" for religion amongst students in the public schools. as i noted before, muslims need more than a moment of silence in order to perform the prayers they are required by muhammad to do. and (at least orthodox) jewish prayer also has requirements that are not addressed by this. there is, in fact, a highly selective bias towards christian prayer in this "moment of silence" shit. and that is especially bizarre in that christian prayer doesn't need this stuff -- a christain may pray totally incognito at any time (to some extent, this is true of muslims and jews as well -- what i intend in my first paragraph is that there *are* some characteristic forms of prayer in *these* religions which do need special times and/or behavior, which cannot be undertaken without an observer being able taking note of it.) a christian may pray, at any time -- silently and without any trace of his activity being evident to others. that may or may not be true of the other religious traditions amongst us: certainly, these tend to have some forms of prayer that would evidence differences from american/protestant "mainstream" religion. all that a "moment of silence" does is to allow that one tradition which doesn't need it, to have a "special" place set aside in the public schools. there is nothing in christian prayer that requires public forms, or rugs, or phylacteries, or anything else at all visible to the outside world. a christian student may (and probably does) pray at innumerable times during the day, without anyone else knowing it. [that may also be true of non- christians -- i am not claimng otherwise]. in the "moment of silence" it would still be difficult for the jews to gather and daven, for the muslims to do their ablutions and find qiblah to mecca and engage in the prescribed forms. but *of course* christians can do *their* thing -- and therefore, the provision is nothing but a disguised attempt to encourage just that. luckily, there *is* a strong jewish presence in this country (and i, as a christian, revere some of the jewish teachers i had in public schools), and a growing muslim presence as well. i can only hope that the political forces consequent on this will prevent the imposition of christian forms on non-christians. as far as i can see (as a christian) there is nothing in this "moment of silence" campaign but an attempt to use public social pressure to force children to adhere to a pattern that is biased towards christianity. and as a christian, i *must* protest such coercion. for what it's worth, i suspect that the coercion is not really targeted at the non-christians -- it is yet another case of failure amongst christian parents in "making" their children prayerful, so that they want the public schools to teach what they cannot manage to teach, despite having all the opportunity in the world to do so. if you have taught your children to pray, they do not need a moment of silence in school. if you have not managed to teach them, the moment will only embarrass you. give it up. michael l. siemon i say "you are gods, sons of the mls@panix.com most high, all of you; nevertheless - or - you shall die like men, and fall mls@ulysses.att..com like any prince." psalm 82:6-7 
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 jesus: "this is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." kent sandvik says: it seems we are dealing with a black-and-white interpretation. brian, are you subtly accusing me of evil things because i never saw the light? however, this is even more confusing because i even admit that i don't like the situation where i'm not black and white. a spade is a spade. there is no hidden agenda behind this, so stop trying to look for one. it is an easy and as straight forward as it reads. kent, i am not accusing you of evil things. jesus is accusing you. and it is not only you that he is accusing. he is accusing everyone. me, you and everyone in the world is guilty. whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things. we do them regardless. jesus uses the word "men". i am included. jesus is not soloing you out. jesus is making a general statement about out the sad state of man. christians are not immuned from doing evil things. a christian is just a person in whom the holy spirit indwells. a christian can see the evil he is doing--because his evil has been brought out into the light. jesus is not saying that just because evil has been exposed, that the christian will stop doing evil. if you haven't seen jesus's light, your evil deeds simply haven't been exposed to the his light. you may shed some light on your own. your human spirit shines at perhaps 1 candela. but the holy spirit shines at a megacandela. the holy spirit can shine light into places inside us where we didn't even know so do you see jesus's point? christians are not perfect. nonchristians are not perfect. nonchristians do not want to come into the light of jesus because they will see all the problems in their lives, and they will not like the sight. it is an ugly thing to see how far we have fallen from jesus's perspective. do you think you want to know how really ignorant you are? do you think brian kendig wants to know? do you think i want to know? ego verses the truth, which do you choose? i'm watching the news about a man who saw the light, and made sure that the 19 children burned to death as part of his insight into the light. i don't think the world is that simple. and if you act in such ways when you are enlighted, then i'm a happy man and i pray i will never receive such 'light'. and i watched koresh too, an imposter who thought he saw the light, who made sure that the 19 children burned to death, sadly, as part of his delusion. it is even sadder that the people who died with him chose to die with them, and that ignorance was their downfall to death. and kent, don't you bury yourself underneath a rock with an excuse like bringing up koresh--as if koresh actually had truth in him. david koresh was no light and no excuse for you to stay away from the real jesus christ. david koresh, who claimed to be jesus, was a fraud. it was obvious. david koresh was born in america. jesus was born in bethlehem. koresh wasn't even a good imposter having missed an obvious point as that. jesus warned of such imposters in the end-times. david koresh wasn't anything new to jesus. jesus told us to be aware of imposters 2000 years ago. so the next time an imposter makes a scene and claims to be jesus. ask the obvious. where were you born? was your mother's name mary? if the branch davidians asked that simple question, they would have labeled koresh a liar right from the start. the wouldn't have followed koresh. they wouldn't have died. but look what happened. their ignorance cost them their lives. their choice to be ignorant cost them a lot. kent, since you studied the bible under lutheranism, do you not remember what tactic satan used to try to tempt jesus? did not satan quote the bible out of context? do you remember what tactic the serpent of genesis used to tempt eve? did he not misquote god? what satan used on eve and succeeded, was the same ploy he tried on jesus. but in jesus's case, jesus rebuked satan back with the bible _in_ context. it didn't work with jesus. does what satan did to eve in the garden and what satan tried to do with jesus in the desert remind you of what koresh did to his followers? who did koresh emulate? who was koresh's teacher? koresh did to his followers what satan did to eve. did not koresh kill his followersr? did not satan cause adam and eve to die as well? did not the cult followers believe koresh even though they knew the real christ was born in bethlehem? did not eve choose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil despite knowing that it would cause her death? god held them all responsible--deceiver and the rebeller. none of them had an excuse. as opposed to the branch davidians, we have a second chance. follow jesus and he will escort us to the path of eternal life. don't follow jesus, and you stand condemned already, for like the branch davidian complex, your house is already on fire. satan, adam and eve have already set it ablaze. it is just a slow burn, but it is burning nevertheless. 
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 in a previous article, spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (steve lamont) says: ... or consider the thousands in central america killed by those brave cia/nsc sponsored "freedom fighters." thus far, slick willie is a piker. only if you weight americans equal to salvadorans. i don't. 
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 |> yes, of course, as in matthew 10:34-35 "do not suppose that i have come to |> bring peace to the earth; it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword..." remember the armor of god? the sword that christians wield is the word of god, the bible. god be with you, malcolm lee :) |> rjl |> rich loether snail mail: university of pittsburgh the ideas: |> email: rjl+@pitt.edu computing and info services mine, |> voice: (412) 624-6429 600 epsilon drive all |> fax : (412) 624-6426 pittsburgh, pa 15238 mine. 
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 [stuff about mithras deleted] oh, his b-day was 25 dec. ahem. i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time. was mithras connected with this? i also heard the romans had a large solar festival on this day because this day, about 3 days after the winter solstice, was when you could notice a change in the shadows and be sure that the sun was indeed returning. in fact, i remember the latin phrase natalis solis invicti (sp!) associated here. i can't say for certain when saturnalia was, since i can't locate my master holiday list. i think it was 2 weeks or so however. charles hope a54si@cunyvm a54si@cunyvm.cuny.edu government by reporters...media-ocracy. 
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 |> in article <1993apr20.144825.756@ra.royalroads.ca> |> >if one does not follow the teachings of christ, he is not christian. |> >too easy? |> that would exclude most self-proclaimed "christians." |> do you follow the ten commandments? as a matter of fact, yes i do or at least i strive to. i will not be so proud as to boast that my faith is 100%. i am still human and imperfect and therefore, liable to sin. thankfully, there is opportunity for repentence and forgiveness. god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 #in article <93109.231733isscck@byuvm.bitnet> "casper c. knies" <isscck@byuvm#.b #>as a latter-day saint, i found john's statement *not at all* ludicrous... #>please allow me to explain myself. in 1838, the governor of missouri, #>governor boggs, issued his so-called "mormon extermination order." the #>only crime ("illegal activity") the latter-day saints had committed, was #>their religious affiliation, their anti-slave stance (missouri still #>allowed slave practices), and their growing numbers/influence in missouri. #>i guess the mormons "got what they deserved," because they refused to bow #>to the will of (corrupt and evil) secular authorities. this "disobedience" #>brought upon them persecution, murder, and finally forced expulsion from #>their lands and settlements... #it is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by #"average" people, and that at the time, almost all americans were pretty #homogeonously christian. it was largely the mainstream christian's disgust #at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred. true, but that is exactly the "problem": the mormon extermination order was issued not just by a christian, it was allowed under the constitution of the united states, which was instituted precisely to prevent incidents like this "order" from occurring in the first place... as i indicated in an earlier posting, your "irrational hatred" is clearly evidenced by individuals like robert weiss (who could have been gov. boggs' lieutenant; he would have fitted right in, drewling et al), and seems a modern-day occurrence, based on results (slander, persecution, misrepresentation, lies, denying mormons representation in their own user group, etc. etc. in intent and purpose, what really has changed? #the situation is not entirely different today. many irrational feelings #and beliefs are justified through religion. i don't think most of them #are started because of religion, but religion certainly helps justify and #perpetuate prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification #which discourages critical thought. true, as evidenced by numerous examples, as i am sure you're aware. #>in any regard, mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities (and #>i don't even discuss how uthan's were suckered into allowing part of their #>lands in becoming nerve-gas and atomic bomb testing grounds...) is far from #>being trusted or righteous. have things really changed for the better? i #>may be a born cynic, but i have no reason whatsoever that such has been the #>case. in the early 1980s, i believe, the late president kimball (lds church #>leader) strongly protested federal attempts to locate the mx-"peace keeper" #>missile maze from being built in utah (yet another "inspired" decision from #secular authorities). fortunately, his opposition was influential enough #for the feds to back off. #do you mean that the "secular authorities" are some continuous group of #people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing/eradicating the #mormons? do you honestly believe that the main reason for using utah for #nuclear testing etc.. was to "get them thar mormons"? and what about the #majority of uthan's who aren't mormons? you seem to be searching for enemy (correction: the majority of utahn's are mormon (60-70% i believe, up to a 100% in many cities and settlements throughout the western states.) #conspiracies. it is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you #badly must have been done primarily for that purpose. what i mean is that secular authorities are to be watched, as we believe that satan has been given some power and dominion over the earth to divert truth, judgment, and justice. in addition, we believe that the adversary has power to influence the unjust and idolatrous (greed for money would be a good example) in order to bring about persecution, war, oppression, and evil combinations. as an intelligent being, don't you suppose that the destroyer would yield his influence foremost on those with political power? as far as utah is concerned, what i pointed out were some horrible examples of environmental nightmares imposed upon by secular authorities, which have brought death, disease, (i.e. the "downwinders") and environmental contami- nation. i am hardly "paranoid," i am just not "expecting" too much from a secular government that may not share our values and faith, and which indeed (as gov. boggs et al.) may be out to harm and destroy us. as a matter of fact, prophecies in my church indicate that in future years, (global) persecution against mormons will so increase in intensity and scope, that (paraphrasing) "all those who wish to escape persecution and murder must flee to zion." zion (the "pure in heart") will be re-established in those days, and it ain't our current secular authorities who will rule over it... #>... david koresh did not pose a great #>threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation, and with #>john, i too wonder who or what's next... #i personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the #life of even one person. sure, he did not pose a threat to the security of #this nation. but he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers. that #much is definite. hmmm. "definite" by whom? --until such has been established beyond reason- able doubt, this alleged "threat" may have been less than the "threat" imposed upon him and his followers by the batf and fbi... #>who killed who? what constitutional right did the atf officers have to #>invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound? #>what really caused the "murder" of the little children? could it be that #>the atf/fbi presence has any bearing upon the events? how would you #>interpret the mt. masada events? --blame the jews? (what the heck did #>the romans do there anyway? what business did the atf/fbi has in waco, #>texas???) the branch davidians never posed any threat to society. #this is like asking who really caused the deaths of the israeli olympic #team in 1976? in that case, the police botched the job as well. but to #lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible #mistake. i think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case. #certainly, if david koresh chose any peaceful option, the atf and fbi #would have complied. the responsibility is more his than the authorities. come now, at issue is in how much the authorities escalated an otherwise peaceful stand-off: "let's get it over with, and "force" david koresh to come out???" --by gassing them??? were they naive, or what? they played right into the hands of an apocalyptic-thinking individual (he had prepared his people for this eventuality for years), and not *one* firetruck or plan was in place to deal with this scenario??? i feel that the authorities had "some" responsibility to protect their own citizens, even if they were religious zealots, and guilty of ... not paying a $200 gun license??? (has the batf become an extension of the local tax-collectors?) #>david koresh, no doubt, will be described as the "evil" guy (by the #>executioners), while the actions of all those "valiant and brave" officers #characterizing the atf/fbi as executioners is inaccurate and unfair. in #order to be an executioner, the least one must have done is have the intent #to kill. que?? --intrusion into private property with semi's, loaded with life ammunition, isn't that implicit "intent (or at least "prepared") to kill"? i ask you, would the batf warrant stand up in a civil court of justice? i do not mind if criminals (such as dangerous drug lords) are brought to justice, but escalating events to the point of allowing to, if not compli- city with, the destruction of a people? #*isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * _____ #*"how lucky you english are to find the toilet so amusing.* ______//_o_\\__ #* for us, it is a mundane and functional item. for you, *(==(/___________ #* the basis of an entire culture!" manfred von richtofen * \==\/ \ casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities 
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 #in <mcclaryc5snpq.kb1@netcom.com> mcclary@netcom.com (michael mcclary) # just thought i'd clear up a few of the murky areas... #>actually, after surviving being driven out of nauvoo, and later carthage, #>the mormons did fortify utah. they still arm themselves to "defend the #>faith", and stockpile food as well. they have been involved in quite a #>lot of illegal activity - including multiple (and often underage) wives #>for the leaders - a practice still in vogue with some splinters of their #>sect. the parallels between koresh and joseph smith are striking. by "they," you mean the leaders of the lds church? i grant you that when joseph smith was still alive, plenty of "accusations" were filed, most of which had little bearing with reality, as evidenced by various verdicts. i have studied lds history for 15 years now, and i have yet to see prove that the lds leadership was involved, in quote: "illegal activities." plural marriage, yes, but your charge of "underage" wives sounds like it could have originated from a tabloid, and discredits the high moral standards which characterized these leaders and families, unlike, as it appears, those of david koresh. # joseph smith started the sect. after he and his brother hyram #were murdered in a nauvoo, il. jail cell, church membership split over #who to follow. initially, smith was considered a prophet (just like #mohammed, a rather interesting parallel considering muslims consider #christ to be a prophet the same as jews, i'm led to understand. make #no mistake, this was no messiah we're talking about in smith). the and neither did he claim he was. as the church reflects the moral aptitude of its leaders (and especially those of joseph smith), i have nothing but the highest respect for this inspired man, whose only "crime" was that he refused to deny that he had seen a vision... many have tried to explain the "smith phenomenon" away, but the bold presence of an 8.5 million member strong church stands as a witness that joseph smith's testimony had enough resilience and power to carry on the message. #thought at the time was that the gift of prophecy was to be handed #down father to son. after joseph smith died, his son was only #entering his teens. brigham young and a few others claimed to have #been bequeathed the gift and leadership prior to his death. the #council of twelve, the church governing body, wasn't of much help #here, and this basic conflict is still a wedge between the sects. #brigham young took his followers to salt lake. the rest waited #for smith jr. to grow up enough to assume leadership. the other #claimants to the leadership were soon ignored, like mike dukakis. ;-) "the rest" were apostates and excommunicated members of the church, while the great majority of the membership, the twelve, and the various auxiliary organizations, chose to accept brigham young as the new prophet and leader of the church. if you knew your lds scriptures and doctrine, you would have known that brigham young was the first in line to fill the prophet joseph smith's vacancy: he was the senior apostle in the quorum, and various comments made by joseph indicated that it was brigham who would lead the latter-day exodus to the west. other rightful "heirs" were either dead (hyrum smith) or excommunicated (oliver cowdery), and while persecutions abounded and intensified, joseph smith had already given orders to look for a new place, an empty land beyond the boundaries of the united states (at that time). this "rekhabite" principle (pseudographia) was well understood and antipated by the great majority of lds faithful, and was not questioned by them. granted, a couple of "do-it-yourselfers" stayed behind, unwilling to sacrifice and to undertake the perilous journey to the unknown, but this also was necessary to separate the tares from the wheat. the church benefitted from this purification process: they became even more unified and willing to carry out their mission to the world. # both sects practiced the "1-year food stockpile" doctrine, #and this being frontier and farming country most carried or at #least owned weapons. there is little evidence that they were a #militaristic sect, given that they tended to move on rather than #face large-scale opposition. brigham young, having suffered a #great deal getting to salt lake, seems to have been quite #justified in making military training a good thing. remember, #this was far beyond where even the us army went, and these people #had nobody to turn to save themselves. # just a little context to put this all in perspective. btw, since when is the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints (one of the largest denominations in the country) a "sect"??? it didn't "splinter" from any other religion, as did say, the southern baptists or methodists. #>so what did the mormons get? it seems that j. edgar hoover was very #>impressed with the way they kept secrets. (they're pledged to defend #>secrets with their lives and atone for sin with blood. many actually #>do - even to the point of suicide.) what a balloney. suicide is sinful and against the law of god. i am not comfortable with this alleged "cosiness" with mammon: i assure you that *many* among us reject this attitude categorically. period. our only true allegiance is to our god and to the leaders which he has appointed to represent him. in any regard, to read this trash (about suicide and "atone for sins with blood") is yet another insulting misrepresentation of what my church believes in and stands for... # the rlds, the reorganized lds, are friendly rivals of the lds #and delight in telling stories about them, which generates quick retorts #from the lds members and everybody has a grand time. at no time have #i ever even heard this hinted at. i'm taking it with a salt block. make it a really big salt mountain with a glacier on top. #> so he hired virtually no one but #>mormons, until the fbi was almost exclusively staffed by members of the #>church of later day saints. though j. edgar is finally gone, the fbi #>personnel (especially the field agents) are still heavily mormon. #>i have often wondered how this might affect the fbi's treatment #>of religious organizations a mormon would consider heretical. preposterous. even if this were true (reliable data, please), i am convinced that those officers would perform to the highest codes of honor and conduct (that's why they were selected for in the first place, remember?). besides, one of our articles of faith strongly states the principle of freedom of religion, and that all people are free to worship "*how*, *where*, or *what* they may." # if it's true, there would be little affect. lds and rlds #philosophy is that all other religions have strayed from the true #church as set down by jesus, but that god will judge each on his #own merits. in addition, the rlds also contend (and the lds may #as well) that ignorance of the true way (tm) is an excuse. you #can only be condemned if you had been tought the way and rejected #it. in short, lds and rlds suffer everybody from lutherans to #buddhists, secure in the knowledge that though they are wrong they #will not be penalized for ignorance. it is more likely that hoover #liked them because of their rather strict upbringings which forbade #alcohol, tobacco, hot drink (like coffee or tea), and the like. #these people are the "salt of the earth" and as such are more #easily made to follow orders and have few vices to be used against them. a good explanation, i can accept that. you are right that lds people are sometimes a little too cosy with mammon's "orders" (the late president kimball, for example, was an exception with his strong opposition of the selection of the mx "peace keeper" missile maze in utah). # that's my somewhat educated guess, anyway. both sects have #splinter groups that don't mirror the masses, but these are small #and rare, and hardly worth noting their common ancestry. # none of this has any relevance to guns, though. when a #man's religion is used to deny him the right of self-protection with #the weapons suitable for the job, he'll find an ally in me. #< dan sorenson, dod #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu > #< isu only censors what i read, not what i say. don't blame them. > #< usenet: post to exotic, distant machines. meet exciting, > #< unusual people. and flame them. > casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities 
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 they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall, and they released non-toxic, non-flammable tear gas into the building. how do you know? were you there? while obviously koresh was a nut case, the (typical) inability of the government/media to get its story straight is quite disturbing. on tuesday night, nbc news reported that the fbi did not know the place was burning down until they saw black smoke billowing from the building. the next day, fbi agents were insisting that they saw davidians setting the fire. the fbi was also adamantly denying that it was possible their battery of the compound's wallks could have accidentally set the blaze, while also saying they hadnt been able to do much investigating of the site because it was still too hot. so how did they know they didnt accidentally set the fire. sounds like the fbi just burned the place to the ground to destroy evidence to me. legalize freedom 
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 i'm mostly angry why the davidians didn't spare the children the awful suffering. see my other posting, i'm in a bad temper. well, dozens of children left the compound between the original batf assualt and the fbi assault 7 weeks later. so if koresh really wanted to kill children, why did he let so many go? legalize freedom 
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 please get an explaination of exactly what this "non-toxic" tear gas was and what the delivery system was. i refuse to believe any explaination provided by the fbi/atf without lots of facts. i do not believe that there is such a thing as "non-toxic" tear you are correct. see today's (4/21) washington post. the gas the fbi used is most certainly fatal in high concentrations. of course, non-toxic tear gas is an oxymoron; the whole point of tear gas is that it is toxic, and its toxic effects cause people to seek fresh air. legalize freedom 
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 [stuff about mithras deleted] oh, his b-day was 25 dec. ahem. i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time. was mithras connected with this? rome was under attack by barbarians, they sent for advice to some oracle, and she said worship cybele and you'll be saved. they did, they were. cybele was the quintessential wiccan goddess, there was her and her son & lover, attis. yucky idea if you ask me. ok the book says she was phrygian, from the neolithic matriarchal society catal huyuk (turkey). worshipped 1st as black stone (that kaaba in mecca ring a bell maybe????) carried to rome in 205bc to save them from hannibal. it gets more interesting. romans called her great mother (magna mater), could be the reason why so many of those mary statues in europe are black, prob. is connected to that ka'aba they've got in mecca, 3rd cent. ad she was supreme goddess in lyons, france . . . attis was castrated and formed into a pine tree . . . she should be worshiped on 25 mar . . . in rome it was an ecstatic cult, her priests wore drag, worked themselves up in dance and castrated themselves in order to initiate to her, lived their lives as women. they wore make up and jewelry and the whole bit. only other such primitive transsexualism i know of goes on in india (where else?) where they do that castration thing under some meditation maybe, i forget by now...there's a book on that.) of course, that excepts that weird russian / romanian 18th cent. xian cult that did all kinds of self-castration too, i forget their name. charles hope a54si@cunyvm a54si@cunyvm.cuny.edu government by reporters...media-ocracy. 
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 [irrelevant inserts from previous postings deleted] a definiation from a text book used as part of an introductory course in social anthorpology "the term myth designates traditionally based, dramatic narratives on themes that emphasize the nature of humankind's relationship to nature and to the supernatural. ... legends are ususally defined as tales concerning other times and places that do not give the same extensive emphasis to supernatural themes. legends, more often than myths, are retold purely as entertainment." from peter b. hammand's .an introduction to cutural and social anthropology. second ed macmillion page 387. this makes the bible a fibber magee's closet, over stuffed with a little bit of every thing gleened by a wandering people. now doesn't this sound a lot like the "colorful (or otherwise) story from antiquity that somehow tries to (or does) explain natural pheno- mena"? i think i hear what you're saying, but i'm not convinced that i know what you mean. the possibility exists that what _looks_ like "myth" on the surface may be after all much more than "just" a story. ed mahood, jr. < edmahood@infoserv.com > 
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 the irish have their version of the swastica called st. brigid's cross. there's also the three-legged symbol of the isle of man. the three-legged symbol is a bit different, there is a word for them but i can't recall it, tri something, trieskalon?, don't know. these have more to do with the triple goddess in her three phases as reflected in females: girl-woman-crone. 
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 and i find is extremely discusting to talk about politically incorrect actions, and forget the actual tragedy. think, imagine your eight month old son dying in flames... sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. we have reached the point in our society when there are certain crimes that are so heinous that to merely be accused with them one is automaticly considered guilty and deemed not to have any natural rights much less civil rights. among these are drug abuse, sexual perversion, and political today billary accused koresh of having sex with infants. he had been accused of a number of differing crimes (inconsistantly) over the last two months, but this is the first time i have heard that one. i had heard child abuse but this is somewhat stronger. it is fairly obvious that koresh was hiding behind the children; and ironicly considering his apocalyptic dread, believed enough in the american people's inherent goodness to believe he was protected. it is truly amazing that all these people who 60 days ago had never heard of the branch davidian now believe that he was suicidal, crazy, a child abuser and a immenant danger to others based solely on what the government spokespersons had said. remember that these people have an awful lot to loose if it is found that they have screwed up. but they don't have as much to lose as david koresh and his followers lost. for in our society as it stands murder is not one of the heinous crimes. cutter@gloster.via.mind.org (chris) all jobs are easy to the person who doesn't have to do them. holt's law 
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 i've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me... brian k., i am pleased with your honesty. and to be honest as well, i believe you have not asked my god to come to you. why do i say this? because that would contradict your religious beliefs; therefore, you feel more comfortable simply accusing his sincerity, so you will not have to critically examine your religious beliefs. merlyn leroy 
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 but he said, yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of god, and keep it. luke 11:28 
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 welcome to the peace run you're invited to join in a global relay run... and help light the way. ---- why the peace run ---- there's a new spirit in the nineties: a spirit of oneness, a growing belief in the possibility of true global peace. the goal of the sri chinmoy oneness-home peace run is simple: to bring this spirit forward in a concrete way, to transform it into a reality in their own lives. every other year, thousands of men, women and children from more than 70 nations - passing a flaming peace torch from hand to hand - join together in a relay run that virtually circles the globe. transcending political and cultural boundaries, they go from nation to nation - across mountains, jungles and deserts - carrying the message of brotherhood to all humankind. each person who holds or runs with the peace torch lights a path for those who follow. each time the peace torch changes hands, the flame of oneness burns a little brighter - until one day it will shine in the hearts and minds of every individual on earth. ---- making history ---- the three peace runs since 1987 have achieved some historic break- throughs: in the middle east, a landmark run crossed the egyptian- israeli border; in europe, a precedent-setting run linked eastern and western europe with russia; in the united states, mexico and canada, entire cities were dedicated to the cause of world peace; and in poland, the peace torch was blessed by pope john paul ii. ---- speaking as one: world ---- ---- leaders, celebrities - and you ---- the peace run has won the support of leaders the world over - presidents, prime ministers, religious leaders, sports figures and entertainment personalities. its message has spread to a half billion people though newspaper reports, magazine articles and radio and tv broadcasts, including specials on pbs, mtv and nbc's today show. "i am happy to support your peace run for justice, peace and reconciliation. the world must know that god wants us to live amicably as brothers and sisters, members of one family, the human family, god's family." - archbishop desmond tutu, nobel peace prize winner ---- how it all works ---- peace run 1993 started with a five-borrough relay in new york city on saturday april 17, converging at various points to lead up to the opening ceremony outside the united nations dag hammarskjold building. there, runners from around the world were gathered for the fourth lighting of the peace torch. from there, peace torches are now being transported to over seventy countries for a series of concurrent international or cross-country relay runs including the united states, canada, japan, australia, russia and eastern and western europe. smaller runs will take place in the philippines, mexico, israel, south america, egypt and elsewhere in africa. distance to be covered: 31,000 miles. "the peace run wil do much to inspire the hearts and stimulate the minds of those who support, participate in, witness, or hear about the event." - carl lewis, six-time olympic gold medalist ---- who's behind it ---- the peace run is sponsored by the sri chinmoy marathon team, an international running organization that believes sports can be a powerful instrument for promoting world peace. each year the team puts on hundreds of athletic events, including several world-class ultramarathons, marathons and triathlons, in dozens of countries. the peace run itself is inspired by the global peace ambassador sri chinmoy, who has written and lectured extensively on peace, offered hundreds of free peace concerts and met with countless world figures to advance the cause of international harmony. the run is managed by peace runs international, a non-profit organization based in the united states. ---- take a step for peace ---- the peace runs in 1987, 1989 and 1991 attracted nearly half a million participants. we're expecting even more people to join peace run '93. you can also join the run - carrying the peace torch a few steps, a few blocks or a few miles. or you can come out and cheer the runners as they carry the torch through your community. you can also join local celebrities and government officials in one of the thousands of welcoming ceremonies scheduled along the 70-nation route. your inner support is important too. if you're a runner, each time you go out, you can dedicate your run to the cause of world peace. ---- the next step is yours ---- ---- make it one for peace ---- for information contact: peace runs international 161-44 normal road jamaica, ny 11432 usa tel. 718/291-6637 fax: 718/291-6978 peace run canada 2456 agricola street halifax, nova scotia b3k 4c2 tel. 902/425-1174 fax: 902/420-0773 or for the phone number or address of a peace run office in your town or country, reply to this message by e-mail. 
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 bill, i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert. by biblical scholar i mean an expert who, in the course of his or her research, is willing to let chips fall where they may. this excludes literalists, who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists. they find what they want to find. they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards (and others). i've seen this claim about the "josephus insert" flying around the net too often to continue to ignore it. perhaps it's true. was there only one josephus manuscipt? if there were, say, 100 copies, the forger would have to put his insert into all of them. by the same token, since josephus was a historian, why are biblical scholars raising the flag? historical scholars , i would think, would have a better handle on these ancient secular documents. can you give researchers documents (page numbers, etc)? i became aware of the claim years ago. so i decided to check it out, on my own. but, then, that was in bn times (before net). so, here are some references. see robin lane fox's _the unauthorized version_, (p.284) where lane fox writes, "... the one passage which appears to [comment on jesus' career] is agreed to be a christian addition." in my re:albert sabin response (c5u7sj.391@sunfish.usd.edu) to jim lippard (21 april 93), i noted that consensus is typically indicated subtly as in elaine pagel's _the gnostic gospels_ (p.85), to wit: "a comment *attributed* to josephus reports ... [emphasis mine]". scholars sometimes do not even mention the two josephus entries, another subtlety reflecting consensus. so far as i can deduce, today's consensus is built on at least three things: 1) the long passage is way out of context, 2) origen did not know about the long passage, and 3) the short and long passages are contradictory. i don't know the references wherein the arguments which led to consensus are orginally developed (does anyone?). biblical scholars as i defined them include theologians and historians. the former, like the latter, incorporate historical, social, technological and ideological contexts as well as theology. so the distinction is blurred. i didn't elaborate on that. sorry. (in turn, historians are compelled to incorporate theology). can't say about the number of copies. these were, however, bg times (before gutenburg). a hundred first editions seems exceedingly high; counting on one hand seems more reasonable. perhaps those mss. without the long insert (if any, because anything is possible) have been destroyed. such a practice is certainly not foreign to religions. anyway, all we have are mss. which have the two entries. lippart (in the message noted above) talks about an arabic ms. but here the ms. date is critical. rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota 
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 to: margoli@watson.ibm.com (larry margolis) lm>> >>the rape has passed, there is nothing that will ever take that away. lm>> lm>>lm>true. but forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of lm>>lm>her body for another 9 months. i see this as being unbelievably cruel. lm>> lm>>life is not a "violation". lm>but forcing someone to harbor that life in their body *is* a violation. letting a mother force a child from her body, in order to end that childs life is the ultimate violation. i happen to take the violation of a person much more seriously than the "violation" of a mindless clump of cells smaller than my thumb. your mileage may vary. larry margolis, margoli@yktvmv (bitnet), margoli@watson.ibm.com (internet) 
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 there are actually a few important things we can glean from this mess: 1) when they start getting desperate for an answer to the question: "what's it all about. mr. natural?", pinkboys will buy darn near *anything*, which means: 2) there's still plenty of $$$$ to be made in the false jesus business by enterprising subgenii. just remember that: 3) once you've separated the pinks from their green, don't blow it all on automatic weapons from mexico. put it in a swiss bank account. smile a lot. have your flunkies hand out flowers in airports. the con will just shrug you off as long as: 4) you never, never, never start to believe your own bulldada! if "david koresh" hand't started swallowing his own "apocalypso now" crap, he'd be working crossword puzzles in the bahamas today instead of contributing to the mulch layer in waco. this is because: 5) when you start shooting at cops, they're likely to shoot back. and most of 'em are better shots than you are. in short: - p.t. barnum was right - stupidity is self-correcting thus endeth the lesson. * the_doge of south st. louis * * dobbs-approved media conspirator(tm) * * "one step beyond" -- sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 fm st. louis community radio * * "you'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- j.r. "bob" dobbs" * 
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 stuff deleted - but message is: : >he is god. : in other words, the right of might. : >he is god. : in other words, the right of might. : >god granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint. : in other words, he can do it, he did it, and your in no position to : argue about it. : >one that must be killed by him. note: i say that god and god alone is : >worthy to be judge, jury and executioner. we are not called to carry out : >such duties because we are not worthy. : in other words, you better do what this god wants you to do, or else! : >|> who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so : >god is god. who are we to question the creator? if you doubt god's doing : >in certain situations, do you claim to know a better solution? would you : >be playing the role of god? : in other words, its his game, he made the rules, and if you know whats : good for you you'll play his game his way. careful there, you make god out to be some spoiled little deity that when he can't have his way takes his ball and goes home. now that you mention it.... naw... can't be right, makes sense. | john morris jwmorris@netcom.com | | san diego, ca i have no opinion, but if i did...| 
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 [jesus' comments about how christians have to follow the ot deleted...] i will clarify my earlier quote. god's laws were originally written for the israelites. jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people, not just the jews. gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god. i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus. exodus 31:12-17. how many people have you put to death for working on the sabbath? if anything, he clarified the law such as in that quote you made. in the following verses, jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended. if you'll notice, he also reams into the pharisees for mucking up the law with their own contrived interpretations. they knew every letter of the law and followed it with their heads but not their hearts. that is why he points out that our righteousness must surpass that of the pharisees in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. people such as the pharisees are those who really go out of their way to debate about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. they had become legalistic, rule-makers - religious lawyers who practiced the letter of the law but never really believed in it. leviticus 17:10. how as that medium-rare steak last night? i think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of modern-day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it. what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart? leviticus 19:19. what did you wear to work friday? christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's perspectives and personal conduct. and it demands obedience to god's will. deutromony 18:1. i can you can now justify discrimination. some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not. that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too. god be with you, she is. =kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | b(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | tsakc= =my thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. ok???= = "because i'm the daddy. that's why." = 
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 in response to: whitten@fwva.saic.com (david whitten): there evidently was a feast of bread and wine associated with mithras. i have often wondered if yeshua intentionally introduced this ritual to expand the appeal of his religion, or if it was appropriated by later and you responded: you could argue that if you wanted, but i think a more reasonable argument would point out the fact that the remembrance feast was very similar to the pesach (passover) meal during seder, a very jewish ritual. of course. the feast was the seder, and the accounts of it are very clear on this point. the difference is the connection between the bread and wine and the body and blood of god. this is an old association of the tammuz/osiris/mithras line, and not really related to judaism. in any case, i didn't really intend to argue the point. i saw a possible association and pointed it out, but i haven't the foggiest notion what really happened. -- larry caldwell caldwell@ohsu.edu compuserve 72210,2273 oregon health sciences university. (503) 494-2232 
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 actually, both are positive arguments. ("positive" may not be the best description here due to possible misunderstanding, but it's the term you used.) positive arguments/assertions can be both affirmative (i.e. god exists) and negative (i.e. god does not exist). both carry an equal burden of proof because they are both asserting that a certain idea is true. the default condition, in the absence of a preponderance of evidence either way, is that the proposition or assertion is undecidable. and the person who takes the undecidable position and says that he/she simply disbelieves that the proposition is true, is the only one who holds no burden of proof. this is why the so-called "weak atheist" position is virtually unassailable -- not because it stands on a firm foundation of logical argument, but because it's proponents simply disbelieve in the existence of god(s) and therefore they hold no burden of proof. when you don't assert anything, you don't have to prove anything. that's where weak atheism draws its strength. but its strength is also its achilles' heel. without assertions/axioms, one has no foundation upon which to build. as a philosophy, it's virtually worthless. imo, of course. so, if i were to assert that there are no thousand year old invisible pink unicorns* residing in my walls, i need to support this with evidence? i think the _lack_ of evidence shall suffice. * who happen to like listening to satanic messages found in playing beethoven's 45th symphony backwards. "fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers to remain as flames closed in. koresh's armed guard may have injected as many as 24 children with poison to quiet them." "and god saw everything he had made, and, behold, in was very good." genesis 1:31 
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 [...stuff deleted...] andy-- i think we do agree, given your clarification of how we were each using the terms fact and theory. i'll only add that i think perhaps i feel more strongly about separating them, though your usage is quite valid. note that the fact of evolution is still a theory. in other words, it could, theoretically, still be falsified and rejected. but since it's so predictive, and so consistently supported by evidence, it seems pointless to explicitly try to falsify it anymore. i'll add here that any falsification or rejection does not in any way reduce its current usefulness. so long as it accurately predicts or describes things we can observe. not to be a pain in the ass, but is there any reason you don't just say _the theory of evolution_ rather than the _fact of evolution is still a theory_. i'm asking because this whole thread got started because i was bothered by a post that referred to _the fact of evolution_, basically leaving off the phrase _is still a theory_. without a clarification, like the one you just gave, just saying _the fact of evolution_ has a very different meaning to me. [description of atomic theory, and alternative theories of gravity, deleted] both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith, unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it. here is where you fail to make an important distinction. you have shoehorned the _facts_ of the _existence_ of gravity and atoms and evolution into one category with the _theories_ which have been proposed to explain the _mechanisms_. the existence of these things is so predictive as to be considered fact. the mechanisms, on the other hand, are still worth discussing. i'm not sure i agree here. again, it may be because i feel stronger about separating terms. i was trying to say that the _theories_ proposed to explain the _mechanisms_ and the _mechanisms_ themselves are the only realities here. it is the existence of mechanisms, not the things themselves, that are so predictive as to be considered fact (as you would say). there aren't really little planetary particle systems called atoms out there. or i should say, and more to my original point, it would be a leap of faith to say there are, because we observe only the mechanisms. there is no need to _believe_ there are _actually_ atoms out there as we have decided to think about them. it's enough to discuss the mechanisms. at any rate, i'm not sure i am being any clearer than before, but i thought it was worth a shot. the bottom line, though, is i think we agree on two fundamental ideas: 1. --evolution is a theory supported by observational evidence (my way) --the fact of evolution is a theory supported by observational evidence (your way) 2. --creation is just an opinion. if a theist wants to call it a theory then he can. i won't: it has no supporting evidence and it neither predicts nor supports any observations that can be made. with no mechanisms to talk about, there really isn't much to say. do you agree? jim halat halat@bear.com bear-stearns --whatever doesn't kill you will only serve to annoy you-- nyc i speak only for myself 
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 #> in article <930420.100544.6n0.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew #> #this is complete nonsense. relativism means saying that there is no absolut #> #standard of morality; it does not mean saying that all standards of morality #> #are equally good. #> presumably this means that some moral systems are better than others? #> how so? how do you manage this without an objective frame of reference? either frank o'dwyer or mathew said: [...stiff deleted...] #which goes faster, a bullet or a snail? how come you can answer that when #einstein proved that there isn't an objective frame of reference? [...stiff deleted...] speed is a quantifiable measure resulting from a set of methods that will result in the same value measured no matter the reference. a bullet with zero velocity sitting on a table on a train moving 60mph will be moving at a speed of (a) 0mph to someone on the train. (b) 60mph to someone stationary next to the train. the reference frame makes the speed relative. but what's interesting here is that every person on the train will see a stationary bullet. every person off, a bullet moving 60mph. i know of no train where all the people on it, every time it is filled, will see a moral problem in exactly the same way. jim halat halat@bear.com bear-stearns --whatever doesn't kill you will only serve to annoy you-- nyc i speak only for myself 
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 i'm having trouble receiving news at the moment due to an overloaded news server. i think that i can post out reasonably quickly, though. i'm in a couple of threads at the moment which may be pending replies. if anyone wants a reply from me over something i've posted then i suggest sending an e-mail copy of the point to me so that i can reply by this is one way to shut me up!! on religion: "oh, where is the sea?", the fishes cried, as they swam its clearness through. 
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 there has been a lot of discussion about tyre. in sum, ezekiel prophesied that the place would be mashed and never rebuilt; as there are a lot of people living there, it would appear that ezekiel was not literally correct. this doesn't bother me at all, because i understand the language ezekiel used differently than do so-called biblical literalists. for example, it sometimes happens that someone says "my grandson is the cutest baby!" and then turns around and sees the granddaughter and says "oh! isn't she the cutest thing!?" this person is not literally claiming to have lined up all the babies in the world according to cuteness and discovered his own grandchildren tied for first. rather, he is trying to express his emotions using words that are very object-oriented. because this example is one that is common to many people, nobody misunderstands the intent of the statements; the bible, however, is often at the mercy of people who assume that everything within must be exactly literally true. for those people, the existence of tyre is a problem; for me, it is not. turning to the latest person trying to defend ezekiel, we read this from john e king: the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area[.] no, it implies nothing of the kind. if you had nothing but the prophecy from ezekiel, and you were told you interpret it literally, you would never say "oh, he means that there will be houses and businesses and plants and stuff like that." you would read "i will make you a bare rock" and "you will never be rebuilt", and you'd conclude that tyre would be a bare rock. the only way to get from `fishing nets' to `houses and buildings and a medium-large population' is if you know that all that latter stuff is there. in other words, your answer means that ezekiel misled everybody who read the prophecy at the time it was written. there is no way that, given a literal reading, they could read this passage and conclude "medium-size city". you seem to feel that "never be rebuilt" means "be rebuilt" -- maybe so, but it is hardly a `clear implication'. so far i've seen stated figurers ranging from 15,000 to 22,000. let's assume the latter one is correct. by modern standards we are talking about a one-horse town. well, no. that's only a bit less than the population of annapolis, where i'm from. you know, the naval acadamy, the state capital, george washington resigned his commission in the statehouse? annapolis may not be new york, but it's at least a two-horse town. but supposing 22,000 people is a "small town" -- it's still 22,000 people more than ezekiel predicted. and you've said nothing about the other problem. in chapter 26, ezekiel predicts that nebuchadnezzar will will destroy tyre and loot all their valuables. however, nebuchadnezzar did not destroy tyre, and in chapter 29 ezekiel even quotes god as saying "he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against tyre." let's ignore alexander for a moment, and just pay attention to chapter 26. ezekiel says n. would destroy tyre, and n. did not destroy tyre. ezekiel says that n. would plunder their valuables, but n. did not plunder their valuables. regardless of what you think about tyre _now_, the fact is that n. died before the place was destroyed. ezekiel said n. was going to do it, and n. did not. this post is, of course, pointless. inerrantists have an amazing ability to rewrite the bible as needed to fit whatever they want it to say. for example, i expect mr king to respond to the comments about ezekiel 26 by pulling some "clear implications" out of hat. when ezekiel said that n. would "demolish your towers", that clearly implied that the walls would still be standing so people would know where the towers used to be. and when ezekiel said that n. would "demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea", that clearly implied that n. would never set foot on the island. and when ezekiel wrote that n. would "build a ramp up to your walls", that clearly implies that n. would spend 13 years stomping around on the mainland and never get close to the see? a few "clear implications" that are totally contrary to the text, and you can reconcile anything you want. darren f provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu "[do] you know why i'm the enabler? because you demand it!" -- cliff claven 
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 question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists (stephen tice, the cotera, joe gaut, et al)(apologies if i've mislabelled any of you, i've only started reading t.r.m since the bd disaster. but i know the cotera is a fundy) and are defending koresh and his beliefs as an example of true christianity under persecution from the the big bad secular state: what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits? if the reports are accurate, what iyo does this say about the quality of his christianity? or are the allegations just part of the big cover-up? (i remain deliberately neutral on the cause of the fire: i wouldn't put it past koresh to have torched the place himself. on the other hand, if the propane-tank-accident story is correct, i wouldn't put it past the fbi to try to cover its ass by claiming koresh did it. i hope your government does a very thorough investigation of the whole debacle, and i'll be disappointed if a few heads don't roll. the authorities seem to have botched the original raid, and in the matter of the fire, are guilty of either serious misjudgement, or reckless endangerment.) | steve watson a.k.a. watson@sce.carleton.ca === carleton university, ontario | | this->opinion = my.opinion; assert (this->opinion != carletonu.opinion); | "somebody touched me / making everything new / burned through my life / like a bolt from the blue / somebody touched me / i know it was you" - bruce cockburn 
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 prayer in school is legal; what is illegal is telling children what to pray, or not to pray. many people confuse "you can't tell kids that they ought to pray now" with "kids aren't allowed to pray", possibly because so few kids do so without being told. or perhaps it's because they think that all governmental bodies should be in the business of suppressing all beliefs other than their own, or else they're some sort of satanic humanist conspiracy. it's the old "if you're not for us you're against us" bit. 
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 you just don't get it, do you? me: "brian k, please step aside before you get run over." bk: "there is no truck." me: "turn around at look." bk: "no." me: "look! you will be healthier if you do take a look at the oncoming truck." bk: "no. explain to me why trucks exist." me: "turn around or you will run over." bk: "no. i won't because i like hiking and tomorrow is tuesday." me: "you blind fool! why do you choose ignorance? you have nothing to lose if you look. but if do not look, you will certainly lose your life." i do not want to see you squashed all over the road. bk: "it is my life to lose. i rather not look. besides, a truck running over me will not harm me." and by the way, i really have an open mind." i think the discussion is more like this... me: [ happily picking daisies by the side of the road ] bc: [ dancing on the double yellow broken line ] "come on out and play on the highway!" me: "why?" bc: "the highway was put here for people to be on. we must work towards fulfilling its purpose." me: "but --" bc: "look, the highway has been here for several generations. look, i have a story about how it was actually created by a divine being! and several people actually saw elvis bless it!" me: "but --" bc: "look, are you going to come out here, or not?" me: "but --" bc: "you probably think that picking daisies is fun. well, you're wrong." me: "where in blazes did you get this silly idea that you're supposed to be playing on the highway? you'll get yourself killed!" bc: "better to be killed on the highway than to live an empty life off of it. besides, you're just asking pointless questions. you know you really want to be playing on the highway too; you're just denying it." me: "if you want to get run over, then fine, but i'd much rather enjoy the daisies, if you please." bc: "why do you shun me like this? the creator of the highway will flatten you with a steamroller if you don't see the light and come join me!" me: "well, if he's gonna be that way about it, maybe i want to get as far from the highway as i can..." bc: [ incoherent but quite familiar righteous sputtering ] brian c., don't you see? i do not believe that your god is: (a) real, or even (b) beneficial. in fact, i believe your religion is imaginary and, carried to extremes, harmful. i would like to help you see its shortcomings, and perhaps someday finally become strong enough to see it for what it is: an elaborate lie, kept alive by the elite priesthood to keep the masses properly submissive to their influences. please offer me an argument that's more convincing than "you just don't believe 'cos you don't want to." everything you've said so far could apply equally to any religion -- why do you believe yours is the real one? (note that saying "it's the only one that promises eternal life" or something like that isn't an answer to my question, unless you show that (a) no other religion promises eternal life and (b) it is unarguably true that eternal life must be a reality.) _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 |> #|> #this is quite different from saying "employing force on other people |> #|> #is immoral, period. unfortunately, from time to time we are obliged |> #|> #to do this immoral thing for reasons of self-preservation, and so |> #|> #we have to bear the moral consequences of that. |> #|> since both statements, to all intents and purposes, say effectively |> #|> the same thing, |> #are you serious? two statements, one of which says that use of force |> #in the given situation is moral, and the other of which says it is |> #not moral "say effectively the same thing?" |> yes, when you tag on the "unfortunately, ...", then to all intents and |> purposes you are saying the same thing. then delete the "unfortunately". now tell me that the two statement say effectively the same thing. and to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop, please notice that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self. we can choose *not* to preserve self, which is the point of pacifism. |> #would you say this of any two statements, one saying "x is moral" and |> #the other saying "x is immoral?" how would you decided when two |> #statements "x is moral" "x is immoral" actually conflict, and when |> #they "say effectively the same thing". |> what they prescribe that one should do is a pretty good indicator. and in this case they don't prescribe the same things, so..... |> #|> and lead one to do precisely the same thing, then |> #|> either both statements are doublespeak, or none. |> #they might lead you to do the same thing, but the difference is what |> #motivates pacifism so they obviously don't lead pacifists to to the |> #same thing. |> that's not true. you could formulate a pragmatic belief in minimum |> force and still be a pacifist. if the minimum is 0, great - but one is |> always trying to get as close to 0 force as possible under that belief. |> not the same as 'force is immoral, period', but still tending to pacifism. if you don't think the use of force is immoral, why minimise its use? 
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 just as well, then, that i'm not claiming that my own moral system is [list of references stretching from here to alpha centauri deleted.] jon- [and i thought to impress with my references!] ok, so you don't claim to have an absolute moral system. do you claim to have an objective one? i'll assume your answer is "yes," apologies if not. i've just spent two solid months arguing that no such thing as an objective moral system exists. 
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 when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question? in paraphrase: on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets (7 major and 12 minor) and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew 5:14-19? what is the source of this pseudo-doctrine? who is the pseudo-teacher? who is the great deceiver? ok, here's at least one christian's answer: jesus was a jew, not a christian. in this context matthew 5:14-19 makes sense. matt 5:17 "do not think that i [jesus] came to abolish the law or the prophets; i did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." jesus lived under the jewish law. however, he was the culmination of the promises of the prophets. he came to *fulfill* the prophecies and fully obey god's purposes. verse 18 says "for truly i say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished." the key to this verse imho is the last phrase. jesus, as the fulfillment of the law, "accomplished" what the law was supposed to accomplish. verse 19: "whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." taken in the context of jesus teaching jewish people about living lives under the law, this makes sense. in general, it appears that jesus is responding to some criticism he must have received about "doing away with the law." that was not jesus' intent at all. he had come to earth to live the law as it should be lived and fulfill the promises made by god to his people all the way back to eve [gen 3:15-the serpent will bruise your heel, but *he* will bruise his head.] jesus appeared to be "doing away with the law" because he did not honor the traditions of men as equal to the law of god. he regularly locked horns with the religious leaders of the day because he would not conform to *their* rules, only god's law. in the matthew passage jesus is defending his dedication to the law and defending himself against his accusors. almost the entire sermon on the mount (matt. 5-7) is dedicated to helping the jewish people understand the true intent of the law, sweeping away the clutter which had been introduced by the pharasees and their traditions. in galatians 3:23-26, paul describes the relationship of jesus to the law in this way: [23] but before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [24] therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to christ, that we may be justified by faith. [25] but now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [26] for you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus. i believe this says that after christ was revealed, the law had served it's purpose, i.e. "our tutor to lead us to christ," and now, "we are no longer under a tutor." the law has been "fulfilled" as christ said he would do. god, the author of the old law, and the christ/man, jesus, are the same personality. therefore, the old law and the new testament (the "last will and testament" of jesus) are based on the same moral principles. it makes sense that many of the principles in the old law are re-expressed in christianity. on the other hand, now that the law has fulfilled it's purpose and christians relate to god through christ, not the law, it also makes sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to represent the "mysteries" of this new relationship. i.e. baptism representing christ's death, burial, and resurrection (rom. 6:3-8), the lord's supper as a memorial to his sacrifice (i cor. 11:26), and sunday as a day of worship commemorating his resurrection (matt 28:1ff, acts 20:7) ok, that's one christian's explanation. i don't claim to have all these issues completely settled even in my own mind and i welcome other christians to offer other alternatives. please excuse the long posting. thanks for your interest if you have read this far... john nunnally nunnally@acs.harding.edu 
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 sandvik@newton.apple.com (kent sandvik) writes... so are you happy now when 70+ people, including innocent kids, died today? it's amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other. one thing for sure: koresh will have no chance to defend himself against the statements (lacking in fact or court sponsored verification) made by agents who participated in the situation that killed him. frankly speaking i don't care who started this whole show. i just feel sad about the children that were trapped, and had to die for a case that didn't have any reason whatsoever. all mr. koresh could have done would have been to release these 19 could he? and the first three that died, when guns ablazing in came the batf and fbi? i imagine i would have some trouble giving up my children to someone who had just shot -- what -- two of them? nb: it takes two sets of guns in a situation like this. yes, i put the blame on koresh and similar fanatical religious leaders that think more about their cause than about keeping fanatical: those whowill not tolerate another's way of life religious: based on emotional, internal, or otherwise lacking in commonly defined _scientific_ basis, including legal ones, such as this old saw: innocent untilproven guilty innocent until presumed guilty who is the fanatic? note who is dead; this usually bespeaks a fair bit for the idea that the other side also had lethal weapons, used fatally. they are dead: the children. at best koresh was an asshole and the government criminally negligent in its hadni\ling of the case. at worst, koresh and his followers were not brainwashed guilty of illegal arms possession (as yet unproven) and murderedd along with 25 children they cannot speak for themselves members of the (surviving, alive, and not burned to death) batf/fbi can, and are to the public eye outside the bounds of their legal authorities read the charter: the constitution specifies that the courts convict, while the enforcement arm investigates, and that the evidence involved shuld not be disseminated in a way to harm or injure a party involved prior to that action; its called slander or libel (even where factually true butthen distoted or disseminated with intent to harm for the purpose of covering their butts because the bottom line is: they said they wanted the kids to get out and thefbi, the batf, ms. reno, the prez, and everybody else in this group of upright animals that used to be a freedom loving peaceful country called america: look up the name, it might surprise you has turned the "point the finger of blame" on the other guy. and let those kids die. note well: they lived 51 days; they only died when attacked by outside force. spock's world, diane duane: the spear in the heart of another is the spear in your own .... all of us are responsible. iam; you are. the question is not whether, but how: guess what: you get to make up your own mind on that. children out from the war zone. i'm not ashamed of this statement. who created the war zone? you should be ashamed of bypassing that. it's the same damned (literally) comment made by the folks in the former yugoslavia to justify ethnic cleansing: "gee, they had the guns, all they had to do was surrender". to justify other means does not eliminate the fact that children died for a cause that they should not have been part of. whose "cause" did they die for? the one where they lived, peacibly, to all known purposes (until proven in court, folks!), or the cuase of righteous government safeguarding the freedom of the children who are now dead. againi say: i do not know who did what i was not there. the fbi leaders show moral sickness trying to convict in the press ahead of schedule and you should look over your shoulder, becuase if there is anything my ruminations that actually sets onto real fact of what happened and i do not know that; i am defending people who ahving been burned to death cannot speak for themselves you may, in 22-5 years, find that the concept in our court system has gone from due processss due profit and the batf come to collect their fair share of the tax on the value of your house if you rented it for income which is going down now, folks. read bankruptcy 1995 its accurate in figures and it bypasses the greedy businessman and mankers who have taken profit from the corruption of our govbernment. look to where the money went, folks. you got $10 for medicare that paid a doctor for $00.50 worth of medicine. this is the customaryprofitmargin to businessmen for goernment entitlements. who wll own the land of the cult now? note well: it was nonproift, religious, and nontaxable. large tract of land .... hmmm. use your brains, folks: it happened germany, and it can happen 4.3 trillion (admitted) and counting.... sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 they cut off the water, there were no fire trucks present they refused to bring in fire equipment for fear that the firemen would be shot at. and the fbi/atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions. they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall, and they released non-toxic, non-flammable tear gas into the building. take a second look at "non-toxic, non-flammable": mace (sold tothe public) is supposedly nontoxic. whatthey do not tell you is that if you get mace directly on the linings of the lungs (such as a direct snort to the face) above certain quantities, it reacts similarly to a mustard gas inhalation. i know: my father and grandfather were exposed to poison gas in wwi and wwii; dad went through the side effects of any weapon, including those "non-toxic" aerosols. what the label actually means is :: usually, it wont kill you it may give you permanent css asthsma but that's better than blowing a hole in your head ... all aerosols are flammable if you have enough oxygen and hit it with the right igniter. some of the most non-flammable substances known will boom or searflame if you hit it with the right combo. let's take one: a trash can fire. makes black smoke; already burned right? can't go boom, right? wrong. suck that smoke (made up of paper that has carbonized, or burned about 35% of the fuel in it) into an air conditioning return, mix with about 5:1 air, and light a match. 200 feet of conduit is about the same, when filled with that smoke mixture, as oh, say 200 pounds tnt that is why the fire codes say no open ceiling tiles in buildings. because 3-5 stories of a building have blown out by "nonflammable _smoke_" so: take a little "nonflammable aerosol" mix with gasoline or kerosene fumes no electricity, remeber? a bit of heating on the waco plains? boil water to drink since the water was cut off? liberally mix and allow to settle for 1-4 hours fumes vent down into the bus underground, and the davidians move the children upstairs to a saferoom (they had one, armor plated, remember?) to breath, because kids get sick and die from tear gas. and along comes a tracer, a spark, what have you: everyone burns to death. try thinking before opening mouth: it may not have happened the way the gmen say it did. _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 hang on you missed the point entirely, they are protesting the lack of water because it deprived koresh of his constitutional right to prove his divinity by walking on it. you can tell, folks, when the man has run out of reason: attack the man's beliefs (in legal terminology, argument ad hominem: attack the man, not what he did that has yet to be proven illegal)> |>>and the fbi/atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions. |>they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall, and they released |>non-toxic, non-flammable tear gas into the building. you can tell that the gas did not burn because dispite the fact that wrongo. remember the fire movie a couple of years ago? "backdraft"? the scene in the factory with propane gas coming out of pipes and gasoline all over the floor, with a 750 degree flame front overhead? note that it did not flash all at once? fires ignite and burn unpredictably. gases (like tear gas) mix and distribute unevenly. and flash unevenly. you are not a fire analyst. you cannnot tell. (nb: neither am i. and i cannot tell nor is the fbi spokesman nor is reno maybe we all should shut up and get a forensics analysis first. the building was full of it there was no flash of gas flame. yes,. there was a flash: in one room, just pumped full of it., phill hallam-baker 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84200">
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 i think that the consensus will become that fbi/atf muffed it, not merely because they walked into an ambush on feb 28, and koresh got his prophesy today, against their stated intentions, but because they played right into polarizing the situation and not diffusing koresh had set up all the conditions of a classic cult confrontation and had stated publically what the outcome would become. before or after his kids were shot? the government upped the ante and parcipitated the conclusion today. it does seem that the fires were set from within the compound by the members of the group and not caused by the cs gas or the way it was delivered. let the subsequent investigation shed light on that. suppose then why make the comment? that the government had used pyrotechnics and started the fire. the dividians still had the decision to stay or leave. they never intended as did the jews against the nazis in ww ii: do what i say or die. to leave. the building burns, almost everyone dies. it probably doesn't bother you much, but it bothers many other people.....most of whom dont believe particularly in koresh or his message. all humans, i hope. yes, the finger pointing has begun. four atf agents and 90 branch davidians are now dead because of crazy tactics on the part of the atf and fbi. yeah, they blew it. they were being too "rational" in a situation that was not your ordianry criminal game. they haven't learned that much from jonestown, or the move house, or the sla shootout. or perhaps they have: kill first, blame the dead ones, destroy all the evidence. 
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 [lotsa stuff taken out] bottom line: due process was not served. no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred. think on that. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84206">
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 my theory is that koresh was seriously wounded in the initial gunbattle and died on day 9 of the siege. on day 11 of the siege he rose from the dead and periodically appeared to his followers and the fbi over the next 40 days. living with someone who's risen from the dead isn't easy, as timmy baterman's father in *pet*sematary* could attest, so after 40 days they did what baterman did--shot themselves and burned the place to the ground. consistent with the facts, isn't it? did anyone actually *see* koresh between day 9 and day 11? david w. ash | "what profits a man if he keeps his eternal soul ash@sumex-aim.stanford.edu | when he could have lived life to the full and home: (415) 853-6860 | been forgiven at the end of it all anyway?" | --david merritt, a.k.a. the red shark 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84207">
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 brian kendig says: and since i felt reasonably sure of myself, i decided to start analyzing the bible very closely. that was the catalyst to my break with my faith, though it was a long and difficult effort. brian kendig also declares: "christ" means "chosen", the person chosen to fulfill the prophesies of the old testament and bring about a new age of hope and spiritual growth for mankind. "christ" is greek for "messiah". "messiah" means "annointed one". "annoint" means "to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by impl. to consecrate" the major prophet daniel uses the word "messiah" in daniel chapter 9. how "closely" did you analyze the bible? looks as if you didn't get past the first word. so was the catalyst to break your faith the "priests" who interpreted the bible for you? did you ever do what the bereans did to paul's teachings in acts 17? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84208">
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 can a theist be truly objective? can he be impartial when questioning the truth of his scriptures, or will he assume the superstition of his parents when questioning? i've often found it to be the case that the theist will stick to some kind of superstition when wondering about god and his scriptures. i've seen it in the christian, the jew, the muslim, and the other theists alike. all assume that their mothers and fathers were right in the aspect that a god exists, and with that belief search for their god. occasionally, the theist may switch religions or aspects of the same religion, but overall the majority keep to the belief that some "creator" was behind the universe's existence. i've known muslims who were once christians and vice versa, i've known christians who were once jewish and vice versa, and i've even known christians who become hindu. yet, throughout their transition from one faith to another, they've kept this belief in some form of higher "being." why? it usually all has to do with how the child is brought up. from the time he is born, the theist is brought up with the notion of the "truth" of some kind of scripture-- the bible, the torah, the qur'an, & etc. he is told of this wondrous god who wrote (or inspired) the scripture, of the prophets talked about in the scripture, of the miracles performed, & etc. he is also told that to question this (as children are apt to do) is a sin, a crime against god, and to lose belief in the scrip- ture's truth is to damn one's soul to hell. thus, by the time he is able to read the scripture for himself, the belief in its "truth" is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a matter of course. but it doesn't stop there. once the child is able to read for himself, there is an endeavor to inculcate the child the "right" readings of scripture, to concentrate more on the pleasant readings, to gloss over the worse ones, and to explain away the unexplainable with "mystery." circular arguments, "self-evdent" facts and "truths," unreasoning belief, and fear of hell is the meat of religion the child must eat of every day. to doubt, of course, means wrath of some sort, and the child must learn to put away his brain when the matter concerns god. all of this has some considerable effect on the child, so that when he becomes an adult, the superstitions he's been taught are nearly impossible to remove. all of this leads me to ask whether the theist can truly be objective when questioning god, hell, heaven, the angels, souls, and all of the rest. can he, for a moment, put aside this notion that god *does* exist and look at everything from a unbiased point of view? obviously, most theists can somewhat, especially when presented with "mythical gods" (homeric, roman, egyptian, & etc.). but can they put aside the assumption of god's existence and question it impartially? _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ * atheist _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * libertarian _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-individuality _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-responsibility _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jr. * and all that jazz... 
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 they looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. psalm 34:5 
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 ra> robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "kermit" thread). on what ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?" "orthodox" is a compound word. it comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). i use orthodox to refer to 'right teaching.' right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible. this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible. ra> who is that "holds that" luke meant what you said he meant? i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are luke 23:43 records christ's promise to the repentant thief who hung on an adjacent cross: "truly i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." but was it not until later that christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven? if christ himself was not in heaven until sunday, how could the repentant thief have been there with him? the answer lies in the location of "paradise" when jesus died. apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until easter day. jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and lazarus as "abraham's bosom," to which the godly beggar lazarus was carried by the angels after his decease (luke 16:19-31). thus "abraham's bosom" referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed waited till the day of christ's resurrection. it was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of hades (hebrew: sheol), reserved for believers who had died in the faith but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of god in heaven until the price of redemption had actually been paid on calvary; or even that none would precede the presence of jesus back to glory with the father. doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of jesus and the repentant thief repaired after they each died on friday afternoon. but on sunday, after the risen christ had first appeared to mary magdalene (john 20:17) and her two companions (matthew 28:9), presumably he then took up with him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise (including abraham, lazarus, and the repentant thief). we read in ephesians 4:8 concerning christ: "ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts unto men." verse 9 continues: "but what does `he ascended' mean but that he also descended to the lowest parts of the earth?" -i.e., to hades. verse 10 adds: "he who descended is the same as he who ascended above all the heavens." presumably he led the whole band of liberated captives from hades (i.e., the whole population of preresurrection paradise) up to the glory of heaven. ra> whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra> "look at the bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who ra> see biblical things differently from you? i think that this characterization is faulty. whenever my 'personal interpretation' is questioned, i usually give a reason. as for those that see things differently, please, put forward where there is a valid difference, and we can discuss it. i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff that i glean from it. put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic. but to decry something that i put forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious. ra> are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra> understands it? if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong, then please, show me from scripture where it is wrong. simply stating that there are other views is not a proof. show it to me from scripture and then we can go on. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu 
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 kent, i am not accusing you of evil things. jesus is accusing you. and it is not only you that he is accusing. he is accusing everyone. me, you and everyone in the world is guilty. whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things. we do them regardless. hmm, it seems that this is the core of christianity then, you have to feel guilty, and then there's this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling. brian, i will tell you a secret, i don't feel guilty at all, i do mistakes, and i regret them, however i've never had this huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder. if things happen wrong, i will try to learn from the mistakes and go on. this all is a very clear indication that you need a certain personality type in order to believe and adjust to certain religious doctrines. and if your personality type is opposite, then you are not that easily attached to a certain world view system. so do you see jesus's point? christians are not perfect. nonchristians are not perfect. nonchristians do not want to come into the light of jesus because they will see all the problems in their lives, and they will not like the sight. it is an ugly thing to see how far we have fallen from jesus's perspective. do you think you want to know how really ignorant you are? do you think brian kendig wants to know? do you think i want to know? ego verses the truth, which do you choose? all i know is that i don't know everything. and frankly speaking i don't care, life is fun anyway. i recognize that i'm not perfect, but that does not hinder me from have a healthy and inspiring life. there are humans that subscribe to the same notion. the nice thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden, the shoulders feel far more relaxed! sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 my hope is that brian will look and will see the ramifications of the truck coming towards him. my hope is that brian will want to step out of the way. my fear, though, is that brian will instead choose to glue himself to the middle of the highway, where he will certainly get run over. but if he so chooses, he so chooses, and there is nothing i can do beyond that to change his mind. for it is his choice. but at this very moment, brian hasn't gotten even that far. he is still at the point where he does not want to look. sure he moves his eyeball to appease me, but his head will not turn around to see the entire picture. so far he is satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance. the problem is that you imagine him inside this huge wall, unable to see reality. while he imagines the same about you. clearly we have a case where relativity plays a big role concerning looking at opposite frames of reality. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 |> "do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets; i have |> not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. i tell you the truth, until i will clarify my earlier quote. god's laws were originally written for the israelites. jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people, not just the jews. gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god. i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus. it wasn't jesus who changed the rules of the game (see quote above), it was paul. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming, not even the angels in heaven but only the father himself? dk was trying to play god by breaking the seals himself. dk killed himself and as many of his followers as he could. btw, god did save the children. they are in heaven, a far better place. how do i know? by faith. it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes due to the tragedy. as such it maybe fills a need, however i'm getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack of food, and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven after a painful death. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 let's say that we drop a marble into the black hole. it races, ever faster, towards the even horizon. but, thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity, as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel. integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of . . . infinity. so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole. this is not correct. the event horizon is not the "center" of the black hole but merely the distance at which the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light. that is, the event horizon is a finite radius... 
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 =>i don't necessarily agree with pat robertson. every one will be placed before =>the judgement seat eventually and judged on what we have done or failed to do =>on this earth. god allows people to choose who and what they want to worship. =i'm sorry, but he does not! ever read the first commandment? i have. apparently you haven't. the first commandment doesn't appear to forbid worshipping other gods. yahweh's got to be at the top of the totem pole, though. carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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 =hmm. the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly marked as =officers and yelling "police" repeatedly. this is used every day to bust drug =houses. the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and =display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight. as for not knocking, it's =a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even =fight. usually this strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so =commonly, now would it? how often is it used when the convoy carrying the brigade is visible for miles before it reaches the place that's to be searched? carl j lydick | internet: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu | nsi/hepnet: sol1::carl disclaimer: hey, i understand vaxen and vms. that's what i get paid for. my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). so unless what i'm saying is directly related to vax/vms, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. if it is related to vax/vms, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. 
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 the macroevolutionary tree is full of holes. (please show me a few intermediate forms between reptile and bird.) are you so ignorant that you have never heard of _archaeopteryx_? // bill rawlins <wpr@atlanta.dg.com> // the special creation "theory" is nothing but holes. please show me a species poofed into existence by your god. i have never seen this. chris colby --- email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu --- "'my boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined, resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'" --kurt vonnegut from "galapagos" 
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 please excuse the length of this post, but for personal reasons, i must go on at some length. |> > for your information, i checked the library of congress catalog, |> >and they list the following books by francis hitching: |> i believe i've just discovered an anthopological parallel. in my many |> "discussions" with the fundies, their main tactic is to discredit |> my sources. they shrilly bleat: |> "barclay's claims are bogus; mckenzie's arguements are a sham, |> oehler position is specious, jouon's ideas are fiction, darby is a |> fraud, howard is a counterfeit, rotherham's claims are vapid." |> ahha...now with the branch athiests zealots we have the following: |> "hitching`s claims are bogus, gorman argument's are a sham, |> jastrow's position is specious, stanley's ideas are fiction, durant |> is a fraud, thorpe is a counterfeit, hoyle's claims are vapid." |> are we witnessing the founding of a new major religion.... or has |> it really been there all along?! [...more deleted...] perhaps it would be instructive to see what my original post had to say: |> |> > neither i, nor webster's has ever heard of francis hitchings. who is he? |> |> >please do not answer with "a well known evolutionist" or some other such |> |> >informationless phrase. |> |> he is a paleontologist and author of "the neck of the giraffe". the |> |> quote was taken from pg. 103. |> |> jack |> for your information, i checked the library of congress catalog, |> and they list the following books by francis hitching: |> earth magic |> the neck of the giraffe, or where darwin went wrong |> pendulum: the psi connection |> the world atlas of mysteries [followed by my signature] i was extremely careful in this posting not to say anything which was not factual. i made no judgement about hitching or the quality of the quotation attributed to him. i have not read any of the books listed (although i did glimpse briefly at "earth magic", i saw nothing that i would care to comment on). it was solely in response to an inquiry by warren about hitching, and your assertion that he is a paleontologist. i do not know whether he is or is not a paleontologist. i do not claim to know anything about him, except this listing of his however, i get the decided impression that i am being included among the "branch atheists" on the basis of this post. if that impression is mistaken, please let me know. otherwise, i should let you know that the implications are very offensive to me, and i would certainly appreciate a clarification of your posting. tom scharle |scharle@irishmvs room g003 computing center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu university of notre dame notre dame, in 46556-0539 usa 
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 in <1993apr24.214843.10940@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu i can certainly see opposing the "amen" -- but that doesn't require opposing a moment of silence. if the only people proposing a "moment of silence" are doing so as a sham to sneak in prayers, then it must be opposed. what the hell have prayers to do with public schooling? [i ask this question as a devout christian.] uh oh, michael; you typed "hell" and capitalized it to boot! now peter nyikos will explain that you're not a real christian! i'll back off when they do. does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here? i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren't going to back off when they can't even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray their kids can bloody-well pray any god-damned time they want to. and nothing, on heaven or earth, in government or the principal's office, can prevent or in any other way deal with their doing so. *especially* if the prayer is silent (as bursting out into the "shema yisrael" or some other prayer *might* be construed as disruptive if audible :-)) no one ever prevented me from praying in public school! they hardly even prevented me from masturbating in study hall. bzzt! sorry michael--the nyikos inquisition pointed out that i was hell-bound after one mildly scurrilous pun on "revealing oneself." admitting to masturbation--well, i'm just shocked! 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84224">
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 let us not limit 'misc.taoism' to 'philosophy'. but if we don't limit it to *something*, the discussion degenerates into a big amorphous glob. hmm...are you a taoist? imposing limits *does* do something useful...it gives you something to go beyond. it seems to me that these questions more properly fall into the category of "general metaphysics". i would prefer any misc.taoism to deal more closely with topics and works more closely associated with at least "semi-orthodox" taoism: with established classic works definitely included and works like mantak chia's argued about! i tend to be a bit critical of any stratification of taoism. i especially tend to frown on any suggestion that "orthodoxy" or "classics" have any special place in tao. i think "neo-taoism" should be excluded or get its own group (what i mean by this is "humpty-dumpty taoism", in which taoism means whatever a poster says it means.) this "alt.taoism" could also be a refuge for debates about what "taoism *really* means" or speculations on sexual alchemy, etc.. so rather than debate what "taoism *really* means" you are suggesting that we take someone else's word for it and work thusly? i'd rather not, thank what's happening is that that the term "taoism" is becoming completely polluted and trivialized like the words "magic", "alchemy", "zen," etc., by writers appropriating the word to mean whatever they want. this is seen by the spate of new age books entitled "the tao of" this, that, and everything else. whereas you, of course, have a clear idea of what the word means? can you tell the tao? :-) any other comments/ideas? i look forward to seeing them. on balance, i say let misc.taoism rip and let the chips fall where they may. wonderful idea. it just gets filled up with college freshmen asking about the tao of sex then it will have been a failure and people will post to these groups just as they do now. only if you choose to define failure in that way. or to define it at all. i believe in the flesh and the appetites, seeing hearing and feeling are miracles, and each part and tag of me is a miracle. -- walt whitman 
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 you said everyone in the world. that means *everyone* in the world, including children that are not old enough to speak, let alone tell lies. if jesus says "everyone", you cannot support that by referring to a group of people somewhat smaller than "everyone". that's right. everyone. even infants who cannot speak as yet. even a little child will rebelliously stick his finger in a light socket. even a little child will not want his diaper changed. even a little child will fight nap-time. so far as jesus saying "everyone": a certain ruler asked jesus, "good teacher, what must i do to inherit eternal life?" "why do you call me good?" jesus answered. "no one is good-- except god alone." ken, the book of romans states that we are born sinners. we do not grow into being a sinner. we sin because we are sinners. the common mistake, even in christian circles, is to think the reverse true. so for as surely as you grew to look like you parents, you not only inherited their appearance, but also their sin nature. it goes with being human. even though a new-born is innocent as can be, his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older. for as surely as he grows hair on his head and teeth within his mouth, he will show the signs of his innate sin by rebelling against mommy and daddy with that loud proclamation "no." 
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 #|> #|> #this is quite different from saying "employing force on other people #|> #|> #is immoral, period. unfortunately, from time to time we are obliged #|> #|> #to do this immoral thing for reasons of self-preservation, and so #|> #|> #we have to bear the moral consequences of that. #|> #|> since both statements, to all intents and purposes, say effectively #|> #|> the same thing, #|> #are you serious? two statements, one of which says that use of force #|> #in the given situation is moral, and the other of which says it is #|> #not moral "say effectively the same thing?" #|> yes, when you tag on the "unfortunately, ...", then to all intents and #|> purposes you are saying the same thing. #then delete the "unfortunately". now tell me that the two statement #say effectively the same thing. #and to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop, please notice #that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self. we can choose #*not* to preserve self, which is the point of pacifism. o.k., got you. i concede your point, though the word "obliged" strongly implies that one must sometimes use force. a further rephrasing would give you the distinction you mention, however. if i have you right, a pacifist would not even go on to say, "unfortunately,etc." #|> #would you say this of any two statements, one saying "x is moral" and #|> #the other saying "x is immoral?" how would you decided when two #|> #statements "x is moral" "x is immoral" actually conflict, and when #|> #they "say effectively the same thing". #|> what they prescribe that one should do is a pretty good indicator. #and in this case they don't prescribe the same things, so..... yes, fair enough, though why confuse things by saying that "one is somtimes obliged" if the real meaning is that "one is never obliged". #|> #|> and lead one to do precisely the same thing, then #|> #|> either both statements are doublespeak, or none. #|> #they might lead you to do the same thing, but the difference is what #|> #motivates pacifism so they obviously don't lead pacifists to to the #|> #same thing. #|> that's not true. you could formulate a pragmatic belief in minimum #|> force and still be a pacifist. if the minimum is 0, great - but one is #|> always trying to get as close to 0 force as possible under that belief. #|> not the same as 'force is immoral, period', but still tending to pacifism. #if you don't think the use of force is immoral, why minimise its use? if you don't think that it is "immoral, period.". frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84229">
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 burning yourself alive seems a rough way to go, given the waco bunch had other choices. but it reminded me of the russian old-believers who, thinking the antichrist was coming in 1666, grew frantic when peter the great started westernizing russia and reforming the russian church a few years later. they locked themselves in their churches and burned themselves alive by the thousands. are there other cases of apocalypse-obsessed christians resorting to self-imolation? is there a history of precedents? 
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 #>#>if almost all people agree that the sun exists (in the usual, uncritical sense), #>#>and almost all people agree that a deal is bad, it's a reasonable #>#>conclusion that the sun really does exist, and that the deal really is bad. #>#i disagree completely. until rather recently, most people did not #>#believe in evolution or the possibility of the atom bomb. popular #>#opinion is notoriously wrong about matters of fact. #>true, but nevertheless the basis of all "matters of fact" is overwhelming #>popular opinion, and some overwhelming popular opinion *is* fact ("the #>sun shines"). if it were not so, physics would be a personal matter, #>assumed to be different for each of us. there would be yourgravity and #>mygravity and no theoretical framework to encompass them and predict #>both. #this is simply complete nonsense. the basis for 'matters of fact' is, #if any class of opinion, the majority of informed popular opinion #for some value of informed. i would really hate to base my knowledge #of, for instance, qm on what the overwhelming popular opinion is. the *basis*, eric, is people peering at the world and saying what they see. i'm talking about uninterpreted facts - observations. _people_ do those. agreement on some observations is a prerequisite for a theory that is more than personal. yes, that's true, but you have to be clear exactly what is an uninterpreted observation. it's pretty low level stuff. 'the sun shines' is already a lot higher level than that. we can agree that 'i perceive brightness' perhaps. #>now i take an experience of good/evil to be every bit as raw a fact as an #>experience of pain, or vision. #that might seem like a good first pass guess, but it turns out to #be a pretty cruddy way to look at things, because we all seem to #have rather different opinions (experiences) about what is good #and evil, while we seem to be able to agree on what the meter says. you're not comparing apples with apples. if we all look at the same meter, we'll agree. if we're all in the same situation, that's when we'll agree on fundamental values, if at all. people who say that nobody agrees on values to the same extent that they agree on trivial observations seem to be unaware of the extent of agreement on either. huh? what do you mean 'all in the same situation?' let's take me and dennis kriz as examples. we're in pretty different situations, but i think we can agree as to whether it's day or night. i don't think we can agree as to whether or not abortion is morally acceptable. yet we are certainly in the same difference of situations with respect to each other. looks like weasel-words to me, frank. #i don't see that it's any evidence at all. #as i point out above, i'm really not interested very much in #what the popular opinion is. i'm prepared to trust--to some extent-- #the popular opinion about direct matters of physical observation #because by and large they accord with my own. however, if everyone #else said the dial read 1.5 and it looked like a 3 to me, i would #hope that i would believe myself. i.e. believing other people about #these matters seems to have a reasonable probability of predicting #what i would believe if i observed myself, but the possibility exists #that it is not. since i know from observation that others disagree #with me about what is good, i believe i can discount popular opinion #about 'good' from the beginning as a predictor of my opinion. #i would say that the fact that it seems almost impossible to get #people to agree on what is good in a really large number of situations #is probably the best evidence that objective morality is bogus, actually. firstly, if everyone else said the dial was 1.5 and i saw 3, i'd check my lens prescription. that's up to you, i guess. secondly, your observation that people disagree shows nothing - people may be looking at different things, by virtue of being in different situations. if i look at an elephant, i'll see an elephant. that doesn't imply that you will see an elephant if you look at an iguana. this 'different situations' stuff is pretty confusing, frank. how do we decide if we are in the same situation? you mind explaining? thirdly, i question your assumption that when people disagree about how to achieve fundamental or secondary goals, that they therefore do not have the same fundamental goals (that seems to be the disagreement you refer to). huh? i don't think so. i think that people disagree about fundamental goals. eric rescorla ekr@eitech.com would you buy used code from this man? 
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 for your information, i checked the library of congress catalog, and they list the following books by francis hitching: i believe i've just discovered an anthopological parallel. in my many "discussions" with the fundies, their main tactic is to discredit my sources. they shrilly bleat: possibly the parallel just stems from your tending to use bad sources... anyway, don't you think that similarity is rather shallow? you're only looking at the surface, at the way of argumentation. and now you should perhaps go a little deeper and try to find the difference, for example, find out whether you can find real science done by hitching. if you can't, will you then admit that your attempt at quoting an authority has backfired? thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany johannes scotus eriugena, the greatest european philosopher of the 9th century, said that if reason and authority conflict, reason should be given preference. and if that doesn't sound reasonable to you, you'll just have to accept it... 
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 i've seen referrences to "creation vs evolution" several times in a.a and i have question. is either point of view derived from direct observation; can either be scientific? i wonder if the whole controversy is more concerned with the consequences of the "truth" rather than the truth itself. both sides seem to hold to a philosophical outcome, and i can't help wondering which came first. as i've pointed out elsewhere, my view of human nature makes me believe that there is no way of knowing anyhthing objectively - all knowledge is inherently subjective. so, in the context of a.a, would you take a stand based on what you actually know to be true or on what you want to be true and how can you tell the difference? translation of the above paragraph: "i am uninformed about the evidence for evolution. please send me the talk.origins faqs on the subject." thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany johannes scotus eriugena, the greatest european philosopher of the 9th century, said that if reason and authority conflict, reason should be given preference. and if that doesn't sound reasonable to you, you'll just have to accept it... 
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 can a theist be truly objective? can he be impartial when questioning the truth of his scriptures, or will he assume the superstition of his parents when questioning? i think that if a theist were truly objective and throws out the notion that god definitely exists and starts from scratch to prove to themselves that the scriptures are the whole truth then that person would no longer be a it usually all has to do with how the child is brought up. from the time he is born, the theist is brought up with the notion of the "truth" of some kind of scripture-- the bible, the torah, the qur'an, & etc. he is told of this wondrous god who wrote (or inspired) the scripture, of the prophets talked about in the scripture, of the miracles performed, & etc. he is also told that to question this (as children are apt to do) is a sin, a crime against god, and to lose belief in the scrip- ture's truth is to damn one's soul to hell. thus, by the time he is able to read the scripture for himself, the belief in its "truth" is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a matter of course. you're missing something here. there are people who convert from non-theism to theism after being brought up in a non-theist household. (i don't have any statistics as to how many though. that would be an interesting thing to know.) i think that religion is a crutch. people are naturally afraid of the unknown and the unexplainable. people don't want to believe that when they die, they are dead, finished. that there is nothing else after that. and so religion is kind of a nice fantasy. religion also describes things we don't know about the universe (things science has not yet described) and it also gives people a feeling of security... that if they just do this one thing and everything will be ok. that they are being watched over by a higher power and its minions. this has a very high psychological attraction for quite a few people and these people are willing to put up with a few discrepancies and holes in their belief system for what it gains them. this is why i think it's kind of useless to try too hard to convert theists to atheism. they are happy with their fantasy and they feel that other people will be happy with it too (they can't accept the fact that there are people who would rather accept the harsh reality that they are running from). anyway, i'm getting kind of carried away here. but my point is that theism doesn't have to be ingrained into a child's mindset for that person to grow up as a theist (although this happens far too often). theism is designed to have its own attractions. _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ * atheist _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * libertarian _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-individuality _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * pro-responsibility _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jr. * and all that jazz... if you know (and are sure of) the author of this quote, please send me email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu): if you are one in a million, then there are 7 and a half of you in nyc. 
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 it took someone this long to figure that out? what is "aluminium siding"? i keep seeing references to it. something to do with railway lines, perhaps? e-mail reply please, i'll never find it otherwise. 
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 jesus was a jew, not a christian. if a christian means someone who believes in the divinity of jesus, it is safe to say that jesus was a christian. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 on tue, 20 apr 1993 06:30:24 gmt, fcrary@ucsu.colorado.edu (frank crary) said: pmy> ...anyway, i've often wondered what business followers of christ pmy> would have with weapons. fc> didn't christ tell his disciples to arm them selves, shortly fc> before his crusifiction? (i believe the exact quote was along the fc> lines of, "if you have [something] sell it and buy a sword.") "if you have a purse" it was. fc> certainly, christ said, fc> "think not that i am come to send peace on earth: i came not to fc> send peace but the sword. for i am come to set a man at variance fc> against his father, and the daugher against her mother..." fc> [matthew 10 34-35] yes, he said this, but the sword that jesus brought was the sword of the word of god, which divides between those that believe, and those who do not, even right down a family. mark towfiq | business/urgent: towfiq@microdyne.com +1 508 392 9953 (fax 9962) other: towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us +1 617 488 2818 "the earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens" -- baha'u'llah 
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 even though a new-born is innocent as can be, his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older. ah, so you admit newborns are innocent? then you cannot say _everyone_ is a about the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a sinner despite having not committed any sins, which is rather odd. "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 in <1ren9a$94q@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.stanford.edu (bruce salem) why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus. i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles, but what are the other reasons? it is not tossed out as a source, but would it be regarded as unbiased and independant? this brings up another something i have never understood. i asked this once before and got a few interesting responses, but somehow didn't seem satisfied. why would the nt not be considered a good source. this might be a literary/historical question, but when i studied history i always looked for firsthand original sources to write my papers. if the topic was on mr. x, i looked to see if mr. x wrote anything about it. if the topic was on a group, look for the group, etc. if the topic is on mr. x, and mr. x did not write anything about it, (barring the theistic response about the bible being divinely inspired which i can't adequately argue), wouldn't we look for people who ate, worked, walked, talked, etc. with him? if someone was at an event wouldn't they be a better "reporter" than someone who heard about it second hand? i guess isn't firsthand better than second hand. i know, there is bias, and winners writing history, but doesn't the principle of firsthand being best still apply? michael a. cobb "...and i won't raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs." champaign-urbana -bill clinton 3rd debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu nobody can explain everything to anybody. g.k.chesterton 
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 [ note: talk.origins removed from crossposting, as this had no business going there in the first place. ] if i make a statement, "that god exists, loves me, etc." but in no way insist that you believe it, does that place a burden of proof upon me. no, but you're not achieving anything either. if you don't want to argue the point you're stating, why do you bother stating it? if you insist that god doesn't exist, does that place a burden of proof upon you? no. read the (alt.atheism) faq to find out why. i give no proofs, i only give testimony to my beliefs. well enough; if i feel interested, i might even listen. i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs. i won't; the task is impossible, and i don't have to do it in the first place. why should i even bother to change or disprove your beliefs? - mats "strong apatheist?" andtbacka disclaimer? "it's great to be young and insane!" 
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 to you, it shouldn't matter if you do evil things or good things. it is all meaningless in the end anyway. so go rob a bank. go tell someone you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag. what's restraining you? generally, reciprocation. 
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 brian, it doesn't offend me if you decide to reject jesus christ. i only wish you would make that decision after you learn who jesus is. have you rejected buddha? if you have, did you really learn who buddha is before making the decision? 
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 surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity? the two are not comparable. er, why not? 
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 actually if mr x had something to gain by his claims his account of the events would nmot be the most respected. case and point, the resurrection. by claiming that the resurrection actually happened the early preachers were able to convert many to christianity. however, if you read mathew 27:38 (?) and the case for the resurrected saints who walked around jerusalem and appeared to "many people" you would realize that other historians (josephus for one) would have reported on it all if it happened. the fact that the bible speaks of events of such great magnitude that they would have been noticed taken with the fact that they are not reported on by historians could only mean that the bible contains many made up stories. 
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 hmm, it seems that this is the core of christianity then, you have to feel guilty . . . i think i see where you are coming from kent. jesus doesn't view guilt like our modern venacular colors it. "feelings" have nothing to do with guilt. feelings arise from the state of being guilty. feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive. feelings are a reaction from guilt. jesus is talking about the guilt state, not the reaction. let me give you an example: have you ever made a mistake? have you ever lied to someone? even a little white lie? have you ever claimed to know something that you really didn't know? have you ever hated someone? have you ever been selfish? are you guilty of any one of these? the answer is of course, yes. you are guilty. period. that is it what jesus is getting at. no big surprise. feelings do not even enter the picture. consider jesus's use of the word "guilt" as how a court uses it. i've done all those things, and i've regretted it, and i learned a lesson or two. so far an aspirin, a good talk with your wife, or a one week vacation has cured me -- no need for group therapy or strange religions! sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 "christ" is greek for "messiah". "messiah" means "annointed one". "annoint" means "to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by impl. to consecrate" the major prophet daniel uses the word "messiah" in daniel chapter 9. how "closely" did you analyze the bible? looks as if you didn't get past the first word. so was the catalyst to break your faith the "priests" who interpreted the bible for you? did you ever do what the bereans did to paul's teachings in acts 17? brian, does all this mean that you have to be well versed in ancient greek, hebrew and aramaic in order to understand the core of christianity? i hope you are not catholic, because my christian upbringing was based on the teachings of luther, and the one of the core messages was basically that you don't need to know latin in order to learn about salvation. btw, your statement would also eliminate about 99.5% of all the christians in the world, as well. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 even though a new-born is innocent as can be, his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older. ah, so you admit newborns are innocent? then you cannot say _everyone_ is a about the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a sinner despite having not committed any sins, which is rather odd. this all would also implicate that in order for the sinning 2 month old baby to get forgivance, he or she has to ask for help from jesus. somehow i find this a little bit amuzing. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84252">
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 russell turpin, as is his wont, has raised some interesting issues in his struggle with the christian texts and the christians. unfortunately, he seems to be hoping for simplicity where it is not available. the lukewarm stew he detects may well be an inevitable result of the divine mixing himself up with a bunch of losers such as humanity. also unfortunately (perhaps) i have a deadline in two weeks, the responsibility for which prevents me, in good conscience, from writing a more considered response and fully entering the fray, as it were. let me then say what i can, briefly. the two commandments *are* rules; they are merely rules that are so vague that they are practically devoid of meaning. this point, for the net.browsers who also still read books, is pursued throughly in kaufmann, critique_of_religion_and_philosophy. the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself can be viewed, in part, as reminding man that he is not god and cannot act as if he has "ultimate responsibility." this is a theological statement worthy of barth. dr turpin (dd) may wear the black robe of geneva yet! :-) indeed, many traditions present an interpretation where believers are supposed to interpret loving one's neighbor as following various other rules, and relying on their god to make things come out right, precisely because it would be wrong for man to assume such "ultimate responsibility." once again, we are confronted with good sounding goo that means whatever the reader wants it to mean. this requires the assumption that all interpretations are equally valid, that there is no way of reasonably distinguishing among them. i wouldn't make that assumption; i don't think it is a reasonable assumption. and who is to say that this interpretation is "twisted"? there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way. michael, and i, and others, read 'the bible' with christian glasses. among the things that this should imply is that the nt informs the ot, even to the point of dominanting it. some points in the ot (ceremonial & dietary laws) are explicitly abrogated by the nt texts. to drive russell turpin's point with adequacy, one needs to begin with nt texts (probably from matthew, and probably about damnation) (just trying to help :-) ) this part is, i discover, what most moves me to post: mls> i am a "radical" christian *only* in that i take the gospel seriously. no, michael, the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously. what differentiates you is the way you interpret the russell turpin's 'no' here is misplaced, not to say inappropriate. michael's self-description much govern. the equation of radical = liberal, which seems implied by russell turpin is wrong. radical conservatives are possible (if sadly lacking in numbers at present). thomas merton was a radical, even though conservative in some ways. st francis was a radical, similarly. how many examples are needed? mls> ... why don't i and the (myriads of) other christians like me mls> tell you something about christianity? ... michael's question gets to a heart of the matter (klingons have two hearts, so my metaphor is not mixed, just extraterrestrial :-) ) russell turpin (in an earlier post) had said that michael (michael's theological positions, actually) didn't tell him much about christianity; dean simeon responds (this time gently): 'what do you mean?' more direct, perhaps, would have been: 'what could you possibly mean?' the implied rhetorical effort, to separate michael from the tradition, is a failure. michael is in the tradition. if your idea of the tradition doesn't include him, change your idea of the tradition! the irony here is that there is *nothing* in christianity per se that michael can use to support the cause of lesbians and how can one answer this while staying on the more general issue? i'm on the other side of the interpretive fence (from michael) on this issue, yet '*nothing*' is a hideous overstatement. one verse is enough to refute it; i'll offer two, from paul (of all people): 'in jesus christ there is neither male nor female...'(galatians 3:28 {i don't quote single verses as a rule, and i don't carry them in my head}) and '*nothing* shall separate us from the glory of god...' (roughly, from romans). [if russell would promise to convert based on these or any other verses, i'd promise to get the full context for any that he requires :-) :-)] in short, it is the extra-christian principles that make michael's christianity beneficial, and i suspect they would be as beneficial, perhaps moreso, without being filtered by christian interpretation. this conclusion does not follow, even in short, from the argument that goes before. a surprising logical ellipsis. dave davis, ddavis@ma30.bull.com these are my opinions & activities alone qotd: "wild beasts trapped in their cages are not so fierce as are the christians to each other." julian the apostate, c.361 
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 i recall reading in michael (?) rutherford's novel "sarum" a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull. he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding. they then fatally stab the bull, which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood. this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult. i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult? i don't know where rutherford got his information for this chapter. the book is historical fiction, and most of the general events which take place are largely based on historical accounts. there is a rite like this described in joseph campbell's _occidental_mythology_. he also described levels of initiation, i think 6? i don't know where campbell got his info, but i remember thinking he was being a little eclectic. i also wonder what if any connection there is between the ancient bull cults and the current practice of bullfighting popular in some mediterranean cultures. quite a bit. if you haven't read campbell, give him a try. -- larry caldwell caldwell@ohsu.edu compuserve 72210,2273 oregon health sciences university. (503) 494-2232 yes. i cannot remeber which works i read about this in, as it was many years ago. this ritual was called the tarobaullum i believe, (the spelling may be off). pope charles popec@brewich.hou.tx.us (pope charles) origin: the brewers' witch bbs -- houston, tx -- +1 713 272 7350 
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 i am also unhappy (or actually, very suspicious) that the fbi was dismissing out of hand any chances that they might have accidentally set the blaze themselves. i mean, i guess we are just supposed to believe that ramming modified tanks into the walls of a building and injecting toxic gases into the building are just routine procedures, no way anything could go wrong. my core point was, and still is, that 19 children died, and mr. koresh could just have opened the door and asked the children to go out before all this happened. you might blaim fbi, atf, president clinton, satan, pepsi coke or anything else, but you can't avoid the fact that one single action would have saved small children from a dreadful and painful death. 1) well, mr koresh allowed other children and adults to leave the compound during the course of the siege; why didnt these children leave then? i dont know myself, and certainly havent heard any answers on this here. 2) yes, one simple non-action, ie not attacking the compound with modified tanks, would have prevented this tragedy. i bet you blamed the move people for the deaths that occurred in adjacent row houses in philadelphia, not the government which dropped the firebomb, right? legalize freedom 
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 #frank, unless you didn't realize it, you are just now involved #in a debate where we have various opinions, and each entity #has its own frame where the opinion is expressed. i think i #don't need to state the dreadful r-word. so, it's _sometimes_ correct to say that morality is objective, or what? after all, i could hardly be wrong, without dragging in the o-word. for your part, when you say that relativism is true, that's just your opinion. why do folk get so heated then, if a belief in relativism is merely a matter of taste? (to be fair, _you_ have been very calm, i get the impression that's because you don't care about notions of objectivity in any flavour. right?) frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 petri and mathew, your discusion on the "reality" of atoms is interesting, but it would seem that you are verging on the question "is anything real": that is, since observation is not 100% reliable, how can we say that anything is "real". i don't think this was the intention of the original question, since you now define-out the word "real" so that nothing can meet its criteria. just a thought. brian /-|-\ ps rainbows and shadows are "real": they are not objects, they are phenomenon. an interesting question would be if atoms are objects (classical) or phenomenon (neo-quantum) or what? 
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 recently, i've asked myself a rather interesting question: what right does god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ?? in his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live according to his rules, we will burn in hell. well, with what right can god make that desicion? let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates every one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). what then happens, is that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. well, i didn't ask to be let's make an analogue. if a scientist creates a unique living creature (which has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...? who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe? are all christians a flock of sheep, unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm, i mean it. how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god's will, and who there- jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back? 
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 let's start with the name "rosicrucian". i took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there is a difference between a *member* of a "rosicrucian" body and being *a* rosicrucian. so when you say that you met some 'rosicrucians' you mean "members of a group that calls themselves rosicrucian". at least that is what your observation suggests :-) response: this makes much sense to me. this is also true of most religions. there is a difference between being a *member* of a group of people who call themselves 'hindus' or 'christians' or 'pagans' and actually *being* any of these. the social groups tend to make very important requirements about not belonging to other 'religions'. i find that the ideal described by the holy texts of most religions can be interpreted in very similar ways so that one could presume that 'mysticism' is the core of every religion and huxley's 'perennial philosophy' is the great secret core of all mystical trads. :> tony: i'd prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the lectorium rosicrucianum, only because they may be confused, by some readers of this newsgroup, with the rosicrucian order amorc based (the usa jurisdiction) in san jose, ca; this being the rc org with the most members (last time i looked). of course, "most members" does not *necessarily* mean "best". response: certainly true. i didn't know there were any groups which called themselves 'rosicrucians' that didn't associate with amorc. sure, i've heard all the hubbub about the golden dawn and rosae crucis in relation to all these western esoteric groups, but hadn't heard about other 'rosicrucians'. i'll admit my bias. i live in san jose. :> tony: "you'll have to trust me" when i tell you that if that lecture/class/whatever had been presented by amorc, it is unlikely that you would have had the same impression, i.e., you'd probably have had a positive impression more likely than a negative one, imho. response: this may be slightly off. i've met some of these rosicrucians and have a couple friends in amorc. the stories i've heard and the slight contact i've had with them does not give me the hope that i'd be received with any kind of warm welcome. i still like to think that most people who are involved with stratified relationships (monogamy, religion, etc.) are in deep pain and hope to heal it within such a 'cast'. tony: it is curious to know that 3 other rc 'orders' (in the usa) claim to be *non- sectarian*. response: i'd like to know at least the addresses of the 'other orders' which call themselves 'rosicrucians' and especially those which are 'nonsectarian'. is this 'nonsectarian' like the masons, who require that a member 'believe in god by his/her definition'? tony: i don't see nothing *fundamentally* wrong with "us containing something divine"... and yes i don't like phrases like "eternal bliss" either! :-) response: let alone us *being* something divine. ;> tony: btw, i have read the intro letters of the lrc which they will mail you free of charge. response: addresses, phone numbers of groups? i'm into networking. thanks. | will \ | / love __\\|//__ \{}}}{{{}/ ____|___________|@@| "imagination is more important than knowledge." | | - albert einstein thyagi / \ nagasiva |(*)(*)| thyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com \^^^^^^/ house of kaos -^^^^- 871 ironwood dr. ~~ san jose, ca 95125-2815 'fr.nigris' on divination web telnet seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu 9393 
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 weiss) says: "orthodox" is a compound word. it comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). i use orthodox to refer to 'right teaching.' right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible. this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible. thanks for the etymology lesson, but i actually know what "orthodox" means. you're avoiding my question, however, which was: from what body of theology does your version of orthodoxy come? you seem to simply be saying that whatever *you* understand the bible to say is "orthodox." ra> who is that "holds that" luke meant what you said he meant? i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are you are obviously mistaken, since many, many people have read the bible and many do not agree with you on this point. once again, robert, is your interpretation the only "correct" or "orthodox" one? ra> whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra> "look at the bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who ra> see biblical things differently from you? i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff that i glean from it. put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic. but to decry something that i put forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious. this whole string began as a response to your attacks on mormonism; no one is attacking your personal beliefs, only your tendency to present them as "orthodoxy." i don't much care *what* you believe about the bible; just don't present you personal understanding as the only "orthodox" one. ra> are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra> understands it? if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong, then please, show me from scripture where it is wrong. simply stating that there are other views is not a proof. show it to me from scripture and then we can go on. i have never attacked your specific beliefs -- that's *your* approach, stating that other people who depend solely on the bible have other views is indeed proof that the bible can be interpreted many ways, which has been my whole point all along. the specifics of your belief are your business; just don't pretend that they are anything more than your personal intepretation, and be careful about crying "heresy" based on your private belief system. robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu rick anderson librba@byuvm.bitnet 
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 #> presumably this means that some moral systems are better than others? #> how so? how do you manage this without an objective frame of reference? #which goes faster, a bullet or a snail? how come you can answer that when #einstein proved that there isn't an objective frame of reference? not that einstein "proved" anything, oh, yes he did. you may not agree with his premises, and what he proved may not apply to "reality" (if such a thing exists), but he certainly proved but you can't answer it, and your answer be in general true. got it in one. similarly, a moral relativist will not judge one moral system to be better than another in every possible circumstance. this does not, however, preclude him from judging one moral system to be better than another in a specific set of circumstances. nor does it preclude a set of moral relativists from collectively judging a moral system, from some set of circumstances which they all agree they are in. and even that statement assumes an objective reality independent of our beliefs about it. eh? could you explain this? which "that statement" are you talking about? #> and what weasel word do you use to describe that frame of reference, if #> it isn't an objective reality for values? #i'm sorry, i can't parse "an objective reality for values". could you try #again? s/an objective reality for values/some values are real even in the face of disagreement/ i still don't quite see what you're trying to say. i assume by "values" you mean moral values, yes? in which case, what do you mean by "real"? what is a "real" moral value, as opposed to an unreal one? if you are saying that some moral systems are better than others, in your opinion, then all you get is infinite regress. sorry, but in what way is it an infinite regress? it looks extremely finite to me. what you do not get is any justification for saying that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace. sorry, but that's not so. i can provide a justification for asserting that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace. i just can't provide a justification which works in all possible circumstances. similarly, i can provide a justification for asserting that bullets move faster than snails. that justification won't hold in all possible frames of reference, but it will hold in almost all the frames of reference i am ever likely to be in. your saying it does not make it so, and that's according to your premise, not mine. i don't think i agree with this. my saying it *does* make it so *from my point of view* and according to *my premises*, unless the argument is invalid. it may indeed not make it so from your point of view, but i never claimed that it did. in fact, i don't even claim that you exist enough to have a point of view. 
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 no. i also understand it. i have read the bible from cover to cover, examining each book within, cross-comparing them, etc. and i have come to same conclusions as robert weiss. so rick, why not read the bible for yourself? it is written in plain english. decide for yourself. i'm curious to know if christians ever read books based on critique on the religion, classical text such as "age of reason" by paine, or "the myth maker" by jacobi. sometimes it is good to know your enemy, and if you want to do serious research you have to understand both sides, and not solely the one and only right one. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 kent, with regards to the information contained in the bible (which is the original context of this thread), brian kendig is inside a huge wall. brian *is* inside. the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall. brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says. for example, "if i get through into the firey pit, i will cease to exist." the bible doesn't say that. he hasn't a clue even to what jesus said about hell. that is but one example. looking at your discussion i would say that you both operate from your own reference frame. there's no inside and no outside, there are just two polarized views. as for statements inside the bible, things are still not that clear, we don't have any indications for instance why jobs was placed in the old testament, one of the few books that actually talks about satan. jobs is very much out of line with the rest of the ot books, and there's a chance that someone added this book later into the group of ot scriptures. now in your sense, kent, of sensing reality--that is a different matter. and to you and to brian, relativity does play a big role. what we perceive to be true, depends on our vantage point. since i have read the bible, and brian kendig shows that he hasn't, he has a narrower perspective than mine (at least in the respect of knowledge of the bible). i am proposing to brian, "brian, come up here and take a look from this vantage point." but brian replies, "i rather not thank you. i am content where i am. besides, the vista from up there stinks." and in the meanwhile, brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands. this operates the other way around as well. you have to understand the mind of an atheist, agnostic, or as in my case, a radical relativist. if you don't understand the underlying concepts, it is pretty hard to continue with a dialogue. i'm not a perfect christian, however about 20+ years of christian teaching should have provided me with a pretty good picture of the christian mind frame. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion. christians, do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity? the two are not comparable. this is always an option: when the sect is causing harm, re-label the cult to something else. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 |> it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes |> due to the tragedy. as such it maybe fills a need, however i'm |> getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack |> of food, and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven |> after a painful death. if the children are not being fed, whose fault is that? you and i have plenty of food on our tables while others starve. why is that? god gave us this earth to manage. i don't think we're doing a very good job of it. the only consolation i have for those suffering children is that they will be received into the kingdom of heaven where they will never thirst and never hunger again. i agree with your points, and i'm glad to hear that you subscribe to the notion of secular humanism, humans helping humans instead of hoping for a possible deux ex machina solution! as for faith, you could always use such constructs to dampen your anger or sorrow. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 armed to the teeth. a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself. a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence. faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at night with a knife to kill me for the $2 in my wallet, a .357 is considerably more persuasive than having devotions with him. ...in other words faith in a .357 is far stronger than faith in a god providing a miracle for his followers. interesting. now, if david korresh was god, why couldn't he use lightning instead of semi-automatic rifles? it seems even he didn't trust in himself. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 jesus was a jew, not a christian. if a christian means someone who believes in the divinity of jesus, it is safe to say that jesus was a christian. i would label him rather an original christian, not a pauline christian, though. sad that the original church lost the game. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 ********note: followups go to alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,talk.origins! [deleted] if i make a statement, "that god exists, loves me, etc." but in no way insist that you believe it, does that place a burden of proof upon me. if you insist that god doesn't exist, does that place a burden of proof upon you? i give no proofs, i only give testimony to my beliefs. i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs. if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact, i will respond by asking you why. you aren't obligated to say anything, but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true, then yes, the burden of proof is upon you. if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs, then you are an egotist. why would i care? to surmise, the burden of proof is upon you if you wish us to believe that what you say is true. chris faehl cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu 
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 capser, before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter-day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion, perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine, at the command of brigham young? why don't you tell us, tony? i'm sure what you think you know adds up to a lot more than what casper has. doesn't it frustrate you to consider how many intelligent, thoughtful people you have prepared for the mormon missionaries with your rant? the more you talk, the better we look. nothing makes the truth look better than a background of falsehood. sic 'em, tony! ------------ john w. redelfs, cj195@cleveland.freenet.edu ------------- --------- all my opinions are tentative pending further data. --------- 
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 someone in the government actually believed koresh knew the "seven seals of the apocalypse", and ordered the invasion so that they'd all be dead and unable to talk about them in public. everything we need to know about the seven seals is already in the bible. there is no "knowledge" of the seals that koresh could have. unless the fbi were to kill all publishers of the bible, it would seem the story of the seven seals would be bound to leak out. assuming for the moment that the fbi believed in the bible and were afraid of the seven seals, then they would also know that god is the one who has to open the seals, not some little prophet like koresh. 
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 ...in other words faith in a .357 is far stronger than faith in a god providing a miracle for his followers. interesting. now, if david korresh was god, why couldn't he use lightning instead of semi-automatic rifles? it seems even he didn't trust in himself. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. in the hands of a defender, a .357 _is_ a miracle from god. he helps those who help themselves. or haven't you ever heard that one before? ------------ john w. redelfs, cj195@cleveland.freenet.edu ------------- --------- all my opinions are tentative pending further data. --------- 
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 i give up. what's new about yet another interpretation of the odl adam and eve story? -- michael 
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 |> why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus. it isn't. it's usually treated as being about as reliable as any other single, uncorroborated source of information about a person for whom there is no other evidence. |> i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains |> miracles, but what are the other reasons? what do you mean when you say it contains mirables. i just opened mine and not a damned thing happened. is there some special way to do this? 
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 |> in <1ren9a$94q@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.stanford.edu (bruce salem) |> >in article <c5ztju.fkx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (mike |> >>why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus. i realize it is normally tossed |> >>out because it contains miracles, but what are the other reasons? |> > it is not tossed out as a source, but would it be regarded as |> >unbiased and independant? |> this brings up another something i have never understood. i asked this once |> before and got a few interesting responses, but somehow didn't seem satisfied. |> why would the nt not be considered a good source. contradicting itself on facts, for example. 
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 isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (isaac kuo) states in reply to deleted article about no-knock searches, arrests hmm. the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly marked as officers and yelling "police" repeatedly. this is used every day to bust drug houses. the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight. as for not knocking, it's a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight. usually this strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so commonly, now would it? in general no-knock raids are to preserve evidence, like drugs, which can be flushed down the toilet. they are not the standard way to arrest a violent felon like a bank robber. if there is no need to search or preserve evidence they will just surround the dwelling and order the suspect to come out with her hands up. if the suspect does not come out tear gas will be used. comment on the bd omitted i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day. furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects. do you suggest it is not a method to apprehend criminals. that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers's badges? just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects? how far can they reasonably go to identity themselves? what do you suggest they can do which can't be faked by the "competition"? it is a very dangerous method to obtain evidence that might be destroyed if a warrant is served in the normal way. it is the most dangerous way to arrest anyone. the cops are charging into a room and they don't know what is in it. it is much safer to surround the place and announce yourself. even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's not an excuse to murder police. in the case of the bd's, there was almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who would pretend to be cops. cops are not cops _until_ they identify themselves as police officers. most drug dealers and professional criminals are aware of the likelihood of arrest but they also know how the system works. if they are arrested they call their lawyer, post bail and hope for a plea bargain. if they pull a gun and shoot a cop during a raid they will be charged with first degree murder if they survive the raid. drug dealers have guns for protection from their customers and other criminals, not to shoot cops. cops are shot on no-knock drug raids because the criminals aren't aware that they are cops. no-knock raids on homes occupied by non-criminals are more likely to end in disaster. mom and pop citizen _know_ that they have not committed any crime, they know that anyone breaking into their house cannot be a cop because they have done nothing wrong. if they have the means to defend themselves they may because they know that the housebreakers are criminals not cops. cops and homeowners may die. the first reports from waco stated that the atf had a warrant to search for illegal weapons and also an arrest warrant if the illegal weapons were found. in this case the no-knock warrant was not called for. it is difficult to flush a gun down the toilet. the atf could have surrounded the compound. a marked police car could have driven up to the entrance and uniformed officers could have knocked and served the warrant usual way. it this had happened and and koresh refused the warrant or drove the cops off at gun point then most of the t.p.g folks would have kept quiet. rod anderson n0nzo | "i do not think the united states government boulder, co | is responsible for the fact that a bunch of rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu | fanatics decided to kill themselves" satellite n0nzo on ao-16 | slick willie the compassionate 
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 |> >date: 24 apr 1993 11:53:48 -0500 |> >from: russell turpin <turpin@cs.utexas.edu> |> >the diaries of the followers of the maharishi, formerly of |> >oregon, are historical evidence. |> are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh (sp?) with the maharishi mahesh yogi |> here by any chance? i think bhagwan was in oregon with all the rolls |> royces. maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation and |> does the yogic flying stuff. bhagwan's group was a communal, free sex |> kind of thing. i think they both had beards, though. i think we should just let bhagwans be bhagwans. 
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 well, stephen's annotated study of david koresh's sermon doesn't bother me. it's probable that a careful review of what stephen has done with obvious expenditure of thoughtful effort would provide additional insight into david and his love for god [may his soul rest in peace.] and whether or not we agree with various points of theology therein, a review would likely provide significant insight into our own love for god. one thing that seems apparent from even a cursory reading of koresh's message is that he was not the 'looney tunes' portrayed in the fbi filtered press reports on him but was quite possibly the friendly, likeable person his attorney reported him to be. someone stated that the davidian cult should not be associated with christianity. well, i read all those four postings, and i'm now even more convinced that davididians are truly christian in nature. but sometimes it makes sense to re-label the cult, especially if the ugliness is too much to handle. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 [lotsa stuff taken out] bottom line: due process was not served. no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred. the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire. due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way. *you* think on that. "milk is for babies; when you're a man, you drink beer" - arnold ken garrido (that's guh-reed-oh) miserable asm8086 and c hack. email: keng@tunfaire.den.mmc.com *or* kenneth.garrido@filebank.com 
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 alt.religion.spam? 
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 even though a new-born is innocent as can be, his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older. for as surely as he grows hair on his head and teeth within his mouth, he will show the signs of his innate sin by rebelling against mommy and daddy with that loud proclamation "no." that's not "showing the signs of his innate sin", that's testing the limits of his newfound independence. a two-year-old will continually test you to see just how much he can get away with, just as a pet dog if a child always submitted to your will in a docile fashion, would you praise him and suspect that he's the second coming of christ, or would you seek professional help about his emotional development? _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 ********note: followups go to alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,talk.origins! [deleted] if i make a statement, "that god exists, loves me, etc." but in no way insist that you believe it, does that place a burden of proof upon me. if you insist that god doesn't exist, does that place a burden of proof upon you? i give no proofs, i only give testimony to my beliefs. i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs. if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact, i will respond by asking you why. you aren't obligated to say anything, but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true, then yes, the burden of proof is upon you. if what was being discussed could be established or disproven by experiment and observation, then i would agree with you, chris. the burden of proof would belong to bill. but the source document for christianity, the bible, simply assumes god exists and makes it clear (to us calvinists, anyway :-)) that when a person is in fellowship with god, it is because god has taken the initiative in revealing himself to that person. so from a christian point of view, the burden of proof belongs to god. bill is being consistent with what the bible teaches in relating his own experience with god, but it would be an error on his part to assume that there is a direct, causal relationship between his testimony and someone else becoming convinced that god exists and that he needs to be reconciled to god. if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs, then you are an egotist. please excuse me if i missed an earlier part of this thread in which bill came across like an egotist. what i saw was simply obedience to the scriptural command to "always be ready to give a reason for the joy that is in you". bill hamilton 
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 in the hands of a defender, a .357 _is_ a miracle from god. he helps those who help themselves. or haven't you ever heard that one before? i didn't know god was a secular humanist... sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i've done all those things, and i've regretted it, and i learned a lesson or two. so far an aspirin, a good talk with your wife, or a one week vacation has cured me -- no need for group therapy or strange religions! um, kent... just what *have* you been doing with his wife?!? ;-d _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 kent, with regards to the information contained in the bible (which is the original context of this thread), brian kendig is inside a huge wall. brian *is* inside. the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall. um, i think you and the bible are the ones inside the wall. there's a really wonderful world out here. you really should peek out at it sometime. the silly things you keep saying only reinforce the fact that we *are* on opposite sides of a very high wall. i see how incredibly beautiful things are on my side, and i only keep telling you about it because i'd like to you come join me here. brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says. for example, "if i get through into the firey pit, i will cease to exist." i never said that. i said that i would prefer to cease to exist than to be tossed into any god's version of hell. i am proposing to brian, "brian, come up here and take a look from this vantage point." but brian replies, "i rather not thank you. i am content where i am. besides, the vista from up there stinks." and in the meanwhile, brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands. you say to me, "brian, come up here and take a look from this vantage point." but you're in a valley, looking at a crayon drawing of a sun and a tree, and i can't for the life of me figure out why you're so immersed in it. *i*'m the one trying to get you to come up here, don't you see? _/_/_/ brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun /_/_/ bskendig@netcom.com de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire _/_/ n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent. / the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre. / is that it ends. -- rousseau 
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 [discussion on josephus inserts] thanks. am i correct, then, in assuming that that josephus did in fact write about jesus, but christian copists embellished it? 
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 a definiation from a text book used as part of an introductory course in social anthorpology "the term myth designates traditionally based, dramatic narratives on themes that emphasize the nature of humankind's relationship to nature and to the supernatural. ...." from peter b. hammand's .an introduction to cutural and social anthropology. second ed macmillion page 387. i'm not sure that you can distinguish between myth and legend so neatly, or at all. a myth is more than a single story. the thought structure and world-paradigm in which that story is interpreted is as important a part of the myth as the story itself. thus, i can think of no story which is meant to be conveyed understandably from one person to another within a single culture which won't rest upon that underlying thought structure, and thus transmit some of that culture's mythical "truths" along with it. 
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 : > surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity? the two are : > not comparable. : this is always an option: when the sect is causing harm, re-label : the cult to something else. : cheers, : kent good point. i would not doubt that dk could have spouted verse and debated with best. according to reports his extensive bible knowledge was one way he sucked in the fools (followers?). quote bible all you want. i too judge what you say be what you do and even more by if it makes sense. sense, common that is. doesn't seem so common after all! | john morris jwmorris@netcom.com | | san diego, ca i have no opinion, but if i did...| 
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 |> >one more thought. the government claimed that they believed he had automatic |> >weapons on the premises. |> > he had a license for the 50 caliber machine gun! |> >they knew damn well he had one. they also knew he had it legally! |> >still, without the element of surprise they sent in agents to get him. |> >for all of this my president takes full responsibility. what a guy! |> >i hope he gets it. |> the .50cal gun was a semi-auto, and was thus legal. the batf |> claims that the davidians also possessed illegally modified |> ar-15's and illegal explosives. |> _____ _____ |> \\\\\\/ ___/___________________ |> mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ |> ________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/ |> \_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/ |> \__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/ |> \_ / /__________/ |> \/____/\\\\\\ if you check the news today, (ap) the "authorities also found a state-of-the-art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult's arsenal." [carl stern, justice department] i imagine the authorities know the difference between semi and fully automatic and probably knew weather the guns were legal as they have access to any relative documentation (i.e. permits). in addition the .50 caliber guns (plural) were semi-automatic rifles. 
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 [lotsa stuff taken out] bottom line: due process was not served. no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred. the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire. due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way. *you* think on that. did you by any chance see the pictures of the agents in flak jackets climbing up on the roof and breaking windows. you call that peaceful? if you believed, as these people did, that they would be attacked by evil forces from the outside, found the scores of agents breaking into your compound what would you do? your beliefs always determine your actions. the beliefs may be wrong from my point of view but they are yours all the same. to make it more practical. if i attempted to stick you with a needle you would try to stop me because you believe it would hurt, or that i do not have that right. if you did not you would ignore me. you certainly would it you saw me sticking the needle in a tree. koresh may have been misguided, only god knows. but the jews at masada died for what they believed, the three hebrews preferred to die in the furnace rather than bow down, daniel preferred to die in a lion's den rather than stop praying to his god, and as a christian i am prepared to die for my faith. koresh was not dying for now reason. he had a cause. why should he give up the children to forces he was convinced were evil. the events are bizarre but they match his beliefs. 
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 recently, i've asked myself a rather interesting question: what right does god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ?? in his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live according to his rules, we will burn in hell. well, with what right can god make that desicion? let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates every one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). what then happens, is that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. well, i didn't ask to be let's make an analogue. if a scientist creates a unique living creature (which has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...? who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe? are all christians a flock of sheep, unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm, i mean it. how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god's will, and who there- jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back? 
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 [lotsa stuff taken out] bottom line: due process was not served. no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred. the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire. due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way. *you* think on that. i am not exactly known as a flower child pacifist, but lets call cowpoop cowpoop. "the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant" consisted of the following actions, in order: 1) batf agents forcing their entry of the "compound" through second story windows. 2) batf agents loosing some grenades (allegedly "stun" or "flash" grenades) which promptly detonated. *after* which, according to the tapes i have seen, the b-d started shooting back. now exactly how is it that someone breaking into private property and tossing grenades around is considered "peaceful" by *anyone*? you *think* on that. (which is not to say i do not still hold my previous and entirely correct notions about what should be worn and what arms should be used in assaulting a building.) jeffrey s. medkeff bitnet- medkeffjs@hiramb po box 1098 internet- medkeffjs@hiramb.hiram.edu hiram, oh 44234 pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight. but u.s.a. roaring bill (who killed him) thought it right. 
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 |> these are two conflicting statements. to say one is a clarification of the |> other is a breach of logic. i don't mind people shifting their position on |> an issue. it irritates me when it is said under the premise that no change |> was made. what about deuteronomy 22:20-25? is it wrong now? did jesus |> change that? |> : if anything, he clarified the law such as in that quote you made. in the |> : following verses, jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon |> : the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended. |> sure he does this. however, he doesn't address the notion of stoning |> non-virgin brides, because this needs no clarification. are you going to |> deny that deuteronomy 22:20-25 is not patently clear in its intent? i see what you are getting at (or at least i think i do). correct me if i am mistaken, but i *think* you are asking me if i still believe that we should uphold all of the laws pertaining to capital punishment for such things as adultery, rape and other heinous crimes. as you may recall, jesus was confronted by this same question in regards to the adultress who was caught in the act and brought before jesus. and his reply, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." jesus does not deny the sentence that is to due for this violation of the law. what do you think of this? |> : i think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of |> : modern-day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe |> : in it. what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart? |> i'll agree that there is a lot of modern day pharisees that know the bible |> from end to end and don't believe in it. depending on how they use this |> knowledge, they can be scary. they can argue any position they desire, and |> back it up with selected parts of the bible. such pharisees include david |> koresh and adolph hitler. i will qualify this by saying *i don't know* if |> they actually believed what they were preaching, but the ends certainly |> made the means look frightening. agreed. :) |> however, just as scary are those that don't know much of the bible, but |> believe every word. in fact, this is probably scarier, since there are far |> more of these people, from what i've seen. in addition, they are very easy |> to manipulate by the aforementioned pharisees, since they don't know enough |> to debate with these people. agreed also. if one is to use the bible as a reference, one must always be open to different interpretations. as a christian, i have the spirit of god to verify what i believe in the word. if what the spirit tells me is not backed up in scripture then the spirit i am communicating with is not of god. after all, jesus tells us to "test the spirits" to know for sure that it is from god. |> : christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's |> : perspectives and personal conduct. and it demands obedience to god's will. |> no, it demands obedience to a book. if god came down and personally told |> me how i should behave, then i would say that i would be doing god's will |> by doing it. however, if preachers, pastors, and evangelists tell me to |> obey the will of a book written by people who have been dead for close to |> two millenia (even longer for the ot), even if i follow everything in it |> with my heart, i could scarcely be honest with myself by saying i'm doing |> the will of god. i obey what the spirit of god tells me to do. the spirit will not violate anything that is written in the bible because that is the word of god. i do not worship pastors, preachers, my wife, my mother or my father. what they tell me does not carry the weight of what god tells me to do and his commands are rienforced in the bible. |> : some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not. that is |> : their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too. |> well, if god respects it so much, how come there is talk in the bible about |> eternal damnation for non-believers? i see little respect eminating from |> the god of the bible. i see a selfish and spiteful god. eternal damnation is the consequence of the choice one makes in rejecting god. if you choose to jump off a cliff, you can hardly blame god for you going *splat* at the bottom. he knows that if you choose to jump, that you will die but he will not prevent you from making that choice. in fact, he sent his son to stand on the edge of the cliff and tell everyone of what lies below. to prove that point, jesus took that plunge himself but he being god was able to rise up again. i have seen the example of christ and have chosen not to jump and i'm trying to tell you not to jump or else you'll go *splat*. you don't have to listen to me and i won't stop you if you decide to jump. i only ask that you check it out before taking the plunge. you owe it to yourself. i don't like seeing anyone go *splat*. god be with you, malcolm lee :) 
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 douglas c. meier | you can't play electro-magnetic golf northwestern university, acns | according to the rules of centrifugal this university is too commie- | bumblepuppy. -huxley, brave new world lib pinko to have these views. | dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 
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 firstly, science has its basis in values, not the other way round. so you better explain what objective atoms are, and how we get them from subjective values, before we go any further. atoms are not objective. they aren't even real. what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. all of which is subjective. omigod, it's an operationalist! sorry, jim, but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a "model" is more than sensible people can accept -- your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding. mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research, inc. is purely coincidental 
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 i'm mostly angry why the davidians didn't spare the children the awful suffering. see my other posting, i'm in a bad temper. well, dozens of children left the compound between the original batf assualt and the fbi assault 7 weeks later. so if koresh really wanted to kill children, why did he let so many go? word is that the ones he let go were not his. ---------visit the sounding board bbs +1 214 596 2915, a wildcat! bbs------- "foot" the bill: let's get a new president. patrick taylor, ericsson network systems thx-1138 exuptr@exu.ericsson.se "don't let the .se fool you" 
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 btw, the parallel universe approach implys an element of mind in the very physical reality of the universe. this sounds interesting... but what exactly do you mean? well, the best thing to do is to read the book "parallel universes" by dr. fred wolf. in essence, dr. wolf says that one interpretation of the sub-atomic particle/wave duality is that what we perceive as a wave is actually an infinate number of parallel universes overlaid, and in each of these universes there is a particle in a different location. when we do something to make a particle "appear," we are actually causing all the parallel universes to collapse into one. apparently this is one line of thought on the nature of qm, that is going through some of the scientific community. dr. wolf (and many others) claim that somehow the collapse is caused by the mental effort of observing the particle. this implys that mind is more than merely a biological phenomenon. he then extrapolates that if mind is an integral part of the universe, then perhaps consciousness is the element that gives order and form to the universe(s) it/themself(s). it all gets rather interesting, but what i find facinating is that this would explain the phenomenon of "magick" as practiced in my religion. dr. wolf speculates that the ordering functionality of mind could be caused by the selection of a future from an infinite number of possible futures; he says that this might be done by some sort of communication between ones current, and possible future selves. i have long speculated that if magick is not merely a form of self delusion then perhaps it could be caused by some sort of a selection of one of many possible futures. i realize that this gets pretty bizarre, but it never hurts to keep an open mind and at least file it all away as another possibile explaination of the world in which we find ourselves. after all, the more we learn about the universe in which we live, the more we learn that it is truly a very strange place. 
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 #frank, unless you didn't realize it, you are just now involved #in a debate where we have various opinions, and each entity #has its own frame where the opinion is expressed. i think i #don't need to state the dreadful r-word. so, it's _sometimes_ correct to say that morality is objective, or what? if you were able to prove that morality is objective, then it would be correct to do so. the problem is, by the very meaning of the words in question, to do so is oxymoronic. of course you could redefine the words, but that would still not lend support to the underlying concept. after all, i could hardly be wrong, without dragging in the o-word. this does not parse. how could you hardly be wrong without dragging in the o-word? for your part, when you say that relativism is true, that's just your opinion. why do folk get so heated then, if a belief in relativism is merely a matter of taste? (to be fair, _you_ have been very calm, i get the impression that's because you don't care about notions of objectivity in any flavour. right?) i have no problem with objectivity at all. it is my objectivity that has led me to conclude that morality is subjective. frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 since everywhere i look, zoroaster is suggested as being a probable descendant of daniel; suppose you prove he wasn't. zoroaster is far older than daniel. if anything, one could claim that, in a sense, daniel is a descendant of zoroaster; as daniel, though being hebrew, has assimilated into zoroastrianism and has successfully introduced the religion into the tanakh of judaism. [however, the majority of the book is in hellenistic aramaic (not babylonian aramaic) and only has kethuvim or writing status.] ref: encyclopedia of religion, mircea eliade: daniel, or, in hebrew, daniyye'l; hero of the biblical book that bears his name. daniel is presented as a jew in the babylonian exile who achieved notoriety in the royal court for his dream interpretations and cryptography and for his salvation from death in a lion's pit. he also appears in the last chapters of the book as the revealer of divine mysteries and of the timetables of israel's restoration to national-religious autonomy. as a practitioner of oneiromancy in the court, described in daniel 1-6 (written in the third person), daniel per- forms his interpretations alone, while as a visionary-apocalyptist, in daniel 7-12 (written in the first person), he is in need of an angel to help him decode his visions and mysteries of the future. it is likely that the name daniel is pseudonymous, a deliberate allusion to a wise and righteous man known from ugaritic legend and earlier biblical tradition. (ez. 14:4,28:3). the authorship of the book is complicated not only by the diverse narrative voices and content but by its language: daniel 1:1-2:4a and 8-12 are written in hebrew, whereas daniel 2:4b-7:28 is in aramaic. the language division parallels the subject division (daniel 1-6 concerns legends and dream interpretations; 7-12 concerns apocalyptic visions and interpretations of older prophecies). the overall chronological scheme as well as internal thematic balances (daniel 2-7 is chiliastically related) suggest an attempt at redactional unity. after the prefatory tale emphasizing the life in court and the loyalty of daniel and some youths to their ancestral religion, a chronological ordering is discernable: a sequence from king nebuchadrezzar to darius is reported (dn. 7-12). much of this royal dating and even some of the tales are problematic: for example, daniel 4 speaks of nebuchadrezzar's transformation into a beast, a story that is reported in the qumran scrolls of nabonidus; belshazzar is portrayed as the last king of babylon, although he was never king; and darius is called a mede who conquered babylon and is placed before cyrus ii of persia, although no such darius is known (the medes followed the persians, and darius is the name of several persian kings). presumably the episodes of daniel 2-6, depicting a series of monarchical reversals, episodes of ritual observances, and reports of miraculous deliverances were collected in the seleucid period (late fourth to mid-second century bce) in order to reinvigorate waning jewish hopes in divine providence and encourage steadfast faith. the visions of daniel 7-12, reporting events from the reign of belshazzar to that of cyrus ii (but actually predicting the overthrow of seleucid rule in palestine), were collected and published during the reign of antiochus iv prior to the maccabean revolt, for it was then (beginning in 168 bce) that the jews were put to the test concerning their allegiance to judaism and their ancestral traditions, and many refused to desecrate the statues of moses and endured a martyr's death for their resolute trust in divine dominion. all of the visions of daniel dramatize this dominion in different ways: for example, via images of the enthronement of a god of judgment, with a "son of man" invested with rule (this figure was interpreted by jews as michael the archangel and by christians as christ), in chapter 7; via zodiacal images of cosmic beasts with bizarre manifestations, as in chapter 8; or via complex reinterpretations of ancient prophecies, especially those of jeremiah 25:9-11, as found in daniel 9-12. the imagery of the four beasts in chapter 7 (paralleled by the image of four metals in chapter 2), representing four kingdoms to be overthrown by a fifth monarchy of divine origin, is one of the enduring images of the book; it sur- vived as a prototype of jewish and christian historical and apocalyptic schemes to the end of the middle ages. the role and power of this imagery in the fifteenth and sixteenth century work of the exegete isaac abravanel, the scientist isaac newton, and the philosopher jean bodin and among the fifth monarchy men of seventeenth century england, for example, is abiding testimony to the use of this ancient topos in organizing the chiliastic imagination of diverse thinkers and groups. the schema is still used to this day by various groups predicting the apocalyptic advent. the encouragement in the face of religious persecution that is found and propagandized in daniel 11-12 contains a remarkable reinterpretation of isaiah 52:13-53:12, regarding the suffering servant of god not as all israel but as the select faithful. neither the opening stories about daniel and the youths nor the final martyrological allusions advocate violence or revolt; they rather advocate a stance of piety, civil disobedience, and trustful resignation. victory for the faithful is in the hands of the archangel michael, and the martyrs will be resurrected and granted astral immortality. persumably the circles behind the book were not the same as the maccabean fighters and may reflect some proto-pharisaic group of hasidim, or pietists. the themes of resistance to oppression, freedom of worship, preservation of monotheistic integrity, the overthrow of historical dominions, and the acknowledgement of the god of heaven recur throughout the book and have served as a token of trust for the faithful in their darkest hour. zarathushtra, founder of the religion know as zoroastrianism or mazdaism (from mazda or ahura mazda, the name of the god prophesied by zarathushtra.) the etymology and history of zarathushtra, the avestan and oldest form of the name, as uncertain, both in various iranian languages and in related forms else- where. there may have been an old persian form, zara-ushtra, from which the greek form, zoroastres, may be derived, and there may have existed an old iranian form, zarat-ushtra, to which may be linked the middle iranian zrdrwsht, several middle persian forms (such as zrtwsht), and the new persian zardusht. we can state with certainty only that the second half of the name, ushtra, means "camel." the form zoroaster, derived from the greek zoroastres, was used traditionally in european culture until the eighteenth century, when zarathustra, closer to the original (and as found in nietzsche), came into common use after the rediscovery of the avesta, the collection of sacred books of zoroastrianism, and the resulting studies in iranian philology. [see avesta.] notwithstanding the great and continued popularity of zarathushtra, even in western culture, the sources available to us are few, extremely fragmented, and heterogeneous. our principle sources are the five gathas ("songs"), attributed to zarathushtra himself and included in the yasna section of the avesta: gatha ahunavaiti (yasna 28-34), gatha ushtavaiti (yasna 43-46), gatha spentamainyu (yasna 47-50), gatha vokukhshathra (yasna 51), and gatha vashishtoishti (yasna 53), the last of which was probably written after the prophet's death. other sources of considerable, albeit varying, importance are the younger avesta and the remaining zoroastrian religious literature, in particular the pahlavi texts of the ninth and tenth centures ce. although the achaemenid inscriptions (sixth to fourth centures bce) never mention zarathushtra, he is mentioned by some greek sources of the time (not, however, by herodotus, who seems unaware of him). the avesta does not provide any direct or explicit data concerning the true chronological history of zarathushtra. but the text is useful in an indirect way, as it clearly implies that the environment in which zoroastrianism arose was not that of iran under the medes or the persians. the greek sources, on the other hand, do provide some information concerning the time of zarathushtra, although from a historical point of view they are unreliable. some place him six thousand years before the trojan war (xanthus of lydia, eudoxus of cnidus, hermippus, hermodorus, aristotle, plutarch, diogenes laertius, and pliny). the account by xanthus of lydia, however, has also been interpreted by some to mean six hundred, rather than six thousand, years before the expedition of xerxes against greece. this interpretation is favored by diogenes laertius, who makes reference to xanthus, but although a few scholars (a. s. shabazi, helmut humbach) have recently attempted to rehabilitate it under various pretexts, it is generally rejected. although the historical value of the greek sources is negligible, they are nonetheless important in that they show that the millenarian doctrine of history of the cosmos had already been developed in iran by the achaemenid period, as the above account would seem to demonstrate. they also show that by this time zarathushtra was already seen as an almost mythical figure, one from an extremely distant past. all of this leads to the conclusion that the prophet could not have belonged to a historical period contemporary with, or even close to, that of the achaemenids. later zoroastrian sources, the pahlavi texts, do provide an absolute chrono- logy for zarathushtra, one that was also accepted by some arab authors. accord- ing to these sources, zarathushtra lived 300 or 258 years before alexander. again, scholars are divided on the validity of the chronology; some view it as historically reliable while others believe that it is devoid of historical justification. the most convincing arguments, however, seem to support the latter position. the figure of 258 years is accurate only on the surface because it represents, in fact, the more general one of 300, which was employed by sasanid propagandists to locate zarathushtra's lifetime roughly around the beginning of iranian domination. for a number of reasons connected with complex problems inherent in the iranian chronology, there was also a desire on the part of the sasanid propagandists to avoid any millenarian threat. in this context, zarathushtra, whom tradition places early in the ninth millennium after the beginning of the cosmos, converted vishtaspa at the age of forty-two, and vishtaspa's conversion was viewed by some as the beginning of the millennium (thus explaining the double date of 300 and 258 years before alexander). given the unreliability of the few available sources, we are forced to reconstruct an absolute chronology on the basis of other elements, principally on the contention that zarathushtra must have lived a few centuries before cyrus the great, cambyses, and darius, as there is no mention in the avesta of the great political achievements that took place in western iran in the middle of the first millennium bce. nor is there any mention of the history of that period, which was to lead iran to a position of such predominance. at the same time, for a number of reasons, going back much further in history would not be justified. consequently, the traditionally accepted theory of placing zara- thushtra around the beginning of the first millennium bce appears to be the most legitimate. as to zarathushtra's land of origin, many scholars agree, on the basis of valid arguments, that he must have come from eastern iran. some have held that he was a mede, largely because of a late iranian tradition linking zarathushtra with azerbaijan, but also because of linguistic reasons, based on the language of the avesta. this hypothesis, however, should be discarded, as we can suppose, both on historical and linguistic grounds, that zarathushtra came from the east, even though we do not know precisely from which region. there is a considerable variety of opinion on this particular matter, including the improbable view that he came from chorasmia, or present-day khorezm, or from a wider chorasmian region, reaching as far as the oases of merv and herat. most likely, however, zarathushtra's land of origin is somewhere in the vast area stretching from the hindu kush mountain range to the more southern regions of bactria and arachosia (modern qandahar), as well as drangiana (the area of lake helmand). it would thus be located in what is now afghanistan or in the border regions of iran. zarathushtra himself tells us that he belonged to the priestly caste (yasna 33.6). he was a zaotar (cf. sanskrit hotr), that is, a priest belonging to a specific group connected with a school that produced very elaborate and learned religious poetry. even in the so-called younger avesta he is described as an athravan (yashts 13.94), a more general term encompassing the entire priestly caste. to enter it he had undergone a long and rigid training, which he used to lend dignity (as in the gathas) to the contents of his new message, the product of a great and original ethical mind. zarathushtra also belongs to that venerable priestly tradition, linking india to iran in another way, by centering his teachings on the praise of the ashavan, or "possessor of asha," that is, the one who, as in the vedic rtavan, seeks truth and masters it, thus becoming ashavan in this life - almost an initiate - and blessed after death. any good follower of such teachings seeks the "vision of asha," just as those chosing the right path in vedic india aspired to the "vision of the sun," a manifestation of rta. behind these concepts and this language lies the great tradition of "aryan mysticism," that is, of indo-iranian zarathushtra's greatness, however, does not lie in his having belonged to a particular religious tradition. rather, it lies in the innovation and strength of his message, which was in itself a break in the tradition, one that force- fully and effectively introduced two great revolutionary ideas: dualistic monotheism (the wise lord who fathers two twin spirits, the beneficent and the evil); and the expectation of a transfiguration (av., frashokereti; pahl., frashgird) of life and existence. [see frashokereti] both his monotheistic and dualistic ideas and his particular soteriological doctrine deeply separate zarathushtra's teachings from the indo-iranian tradi- tions of his upbringing. they exemplify his rebellion against a formalistic and ritualistic religion that did not provide adequate answers to the problem of evil. because of his basic tenets, zarathushtra, who advocated an inward religiosity and the right of the individual to resist the imperatives of tradi- tion, can be numbered among the greatest of religious figures. another original facet of zarathushtra's message, one that is not easy to understand but which, however, holds the key to a deeper understanding of the complex intellectual and poetic structure of the gathas, is the doctrine of the amesha spentas, the "beneficent immortals." these are spiritualizations of the abstract notions of good thought, best truth, desirable power, bounteous devotion, wholeness, and immortality, all of which operate according to a system of interrelations and correlations and can simultaneously be the manifestations of a divinity and of human virtue. [see amesha spentas.] other than the names of his father, pourushaspa ("possessing gray horses"), and of his mother, dughdova ("one who has milked"), we know almost nothing of zarathushtra's life. a late pahlavi text also give the names of four brothers. according to tradition, zarathushtra left home at the age of twenty, and at thirty he was subject to a revelation, both through an intense and powerful inspiration and through a vision. only after ten years had passed, however, did he succeed in converting a cousin of his, maidhyoimah, to his beliefs. he was strongly opposed in his native land by kavis, karapans, and usijs, priestly groups associated with traditional teachings and practices. this hostility caused him to leave his region (yasna 46:1) and to seek refuge at the court of kavi vishtaspa, a ruler who had been converted to the new religion together with his wife, hutaosa, when the prophet, according to tradition, was forty-two years old. we also know the name of a son, isat vastra ("desiring pastures"), and of three daughters born of his first wife, as well as the names of two more sons, urvatatnara ("commanding men") and hvarecithra ("sun-faced"), born of his second wife, hvovi, a member of the influential hvogva ("possessing good cattle") family. two other figures belonging to the hvogva family are mentioned: frashaoshtra and jamaspa, the former as hvovi's father, and the latter as the husband of the third daughter of the prophet, pouruchista ("very thoughtful"), whose wedding is celebrated in the fifth hymm in the gathas (yasna 53). again, according to tradition, zarathushtra died at the age of seventy-seven. he was assassinated by a karapan, a priest of the old religion, who belonged to the tuirya tribe and was called tur i bradres (his name is known only in the pahlavi form). the paucity of information on the prophet's life is compensated by a tradi- tion, rich in legendary detail, that arose through the centuries in zoroastrian communities. the main texts documenting the tradition are the seventh book of the denkard, a pahlavi work dating from the ninth century ce, as well as passages from other pahlavi texts and a new persian work from the thirteenth century, the zarathusht-nama (book of zarathushtra), written by zaratusht-i bahram-i pazhdu. mythical and ritual elements prevail in the later legends about zarathushtra, which idealize him into a symbol and make him the archetype of the perfect man. zarathushtra's great popularity in the ancient world continued throughout the renaissance until the enlightenment. during the classical and hellenistic periods he was viewed as a wise man, a typical representative of an "alien wisdom," a master of the secrets of heaven and earth, a seer, astrologer, psychologist, and wonder worker. pythagorean thinkers went so far as to see the influence of zarathushtra on pythagoras himself, and the academicians always openly admired the persian thinker who founded the school of the magi and advocated a doctrine of dualism. earliest christianity viewed zarathushtra as a precursor of the christian faith, one who not only prophesied, as had the biblical prophets, the advent of the messiah but also predicted the supernatural sign of his coming, the star that was to appear in the east and guide the three magi to the manger in bethlehem. [see magi.] this christian interpretation is derived from the zoroastrian doctrine of the saoshyant, the savior of the future. [see saoshyant.] later, however, religious struggles arose during the sasanid empire in persia (third to seventh centuries ce), which linked the spread of christianity with the roman empire. zarathushtra's popularity in the christian world began to decline. the iranian prophet, who had been praised often by the gnostic schools and who had been seen by mani as one of the three great messengers from the past, was now seen, instead, as a leader of imposture and heresy, a teacher of the diabolic arts of witchery. but during the renaiss- ance and the enlightenment, european cultures reverted to the image of zara- thushtra that had come down through classical and hellenistic antiquity. he was viewed, once again, as a great and wise man, as the author of the _chaldean oracles_ and probably inventor of qabbalah, as a teacher of astrology, as a possible bridge between christianity and platonism, and, at times (as in voltaire), as a symbol of non-christian wisdom. after western philology rediscovered zarathushtra during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, friedrich nietzsche, in an intentional paradox, gave the name zarathustra to the hero of his work _also sprach zarathustra_ (1883- 1892). nietzsche saw the iranian prophet as the first to have discovered the true motive force underlying all things, that is, the eternal struggle between good and evil. [see also zoroastrianism] 
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 on 21-apr-93 in re: abortion and private he.. and while courts have found it ok to charge women less for auto insurance, it's illegal to charge them more for health insurance (because they live longer) or make them pay more into retirement funds so the legal arena isn't being 100% consistent on the gender issue. not so in pa. recently the gender inequity in auto insurance was removed. just a point. 
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 ********note: followups go to alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,talk.origins! [deleted] [more deleted] if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact, i will respond by asking you why. you aren't obligated to say anything, but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true, then yes, the burden of proof is upon you. [some interesting stuff, on the lines of the burden of proof belongs to god] if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs, then you are an egotist. please excuse me if i missed an earlier part of this thread in which bill came across like an egotist. what i saw was simply obedience to the scriptural command to "always be ready to give a reason for the joy that is in you". the remainder of my article deleted stated why. one would be an egotist to believe that someone cared about what bill r. thought he needed to say about god. whether they did or not is irrelevant. jumping on your trailer, "always be ready etc.", then that goes right back to the burden of proof question. go ahead and give me a reason why you think god exists, if you state such a thing. bill hamilton chris faehl cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu 
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 i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths? only my common sense. the fire was caused by either koresh and his followers or by the fbi/atf/cia/kgb/and maybe the harper valley pta. since you are throwing around the evidence arguement, i'll throw it back. can you prove any government agency did it? (please don't resort to "they covered it up so that proves they did it" or any wild theories about how the government agencies intentionally started the fire. the key words are proof and evidence.) proves they did it" no, which is why i want an investigation. please explain how koresh was defending himself from those children who who ever said he was? what is obvious is that he was defending himself, and his followers, from the government. whether you think he was right or wrong in this is another question. if he was right, then he had the moral right to kill those kgbatf agents. --ray cote there's no government like no government. 
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 in <17858.459.uupcb@ozonehole.com> anthony.landreneau@ozonehole.com (anthony the rape has passed, there is nothing that will ever take that away. true. but forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of her body for another 9 months. i see this as being unbelievably cruel. if she doesn't welcome the excruciating pain of labor, the selfish bitch deserves to die in childbirth. she was probably lying about the rape anyway. 
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 = in article <1993apr21.231552.24869@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, = hmm, it seems that this is the core of christianity then, you = have to feel guilty, and then there's this single personality = that will save you from this universal guilt feeling. = brian, i will tell you a secret, i don't feel guilty at all, = i do mistakes, and i regret them, however i've never had this = huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder. i will tell you another secret. i get this burning sensation in my hand every time i hold it over a candle. the pain does not fill my entire body, and i'm told the longer i hold it here, the less it'll hurt (it'll eventually burn up the nerves, or so i'm told). so i suppose i should just ignore the pain, because holding my hand over the candle is something i just want to do. i've got the right, don't i? your body feels pain to let you know something is wrong. it's your body's alarm system informing you that something needs your attention. a fever tells you that you are sick, and need some sort of care. guilt can be seen as that "emotional or spiritual" alarm, just informing you that there is something that you've done that "requires your attention". it doesn't require a "personality type" to become a believer. it requires someone who is willing to listen to themselves, their body & soul. = all i know is that i don't know everything. and frankly speaking = i don't care, life is fun anyway. i recognize that i'm not = perfect, but that does not hinder me from have a healthy = and inspiring life. for several years all i knew is i really liked dropping 'cid (lsd). frankly speaking, i didn't really care. it was fun anyway. it didn't matter that every child my wife and i want to have are at a *tremendously* greater risk of serious birth defects. for several years all i knew is i really liked having sex with as many women as i could convice. frankly speaking, i didn't care. i didn't care that i was putting each one of them at risk (as well as their future partners). it didn't matter that for the first decade of my marriage, my wife and i will have the worry that possibly that last sneeze meant something *much* worse than a cold. = there are humans that subscribe to the same notion. the nice = thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden, = the shoulders feel far more relaxed! the nice thing about pain killers, if you take enough, you won't care about the fever, shortness of breath or pain. jason d. smith | jasons@atlastele.com | i'm not young enough to know everything. 1x1 | 
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 we are talking about origins, not merely science. science cannot explain origins. for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science. this is a false premise. by the way, i enjoy science. it is truly a wonder observing god's creation. macroevolution is a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed within three percent error :) ] let us explore this interesting paragraph point by point, sentence by 1) we are talking about origins, not merely science. origins of what? are we speaking of the origins of life, the human species, the universe, physical law, biological diversity or what? 2) science cannot explain origins. this is a false statement unless it is carefully qualified. it depends on what origins we are talking about. 3) for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science. again, this is a false statement. to begin with, the notion of "higher truth" is distinctly dubious. many people believe that there are ways to ascertain truth that are not in the repetoire of science; they even believe that there are ways that are more reliable and certain. many believe that there are truths that cannot be expressed using the language of science. let it be so. these truths are neither "higher" or "lower"; they are simply true. more to the point, restricting one's discussion of origins to science does not reject other sources of knowledge; it simply restricts the scope of discussion. 4) this is a false premise. if this is intended as asserting that the previous sentence was false then (4) is actually true. however the context identifies it as another false [or at least theologically unsound] statement. 5) by the way, i enjoy science. on the evidence mr. rawlins lacks sufficient understanding of science to enjoy science in any meaningful sense. one might just as well say that one enjoys literature written in a language that one cannot read. however one cannot mark this sentence as false -- to follow the analogy, perhaps he likes the pretty shapes of the letters. 6) it is truly a wonder observing god's creation. let us not quibble; count this one as true. 7) macroevolution is a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed within three percent error :) ] still another false statement. however one can make it come out true with the following contextual modification: "macroevolution, as misunderstood by rawline, is a mixture of 15 percent of what rawlins erroneously thinks of as science, and 85 percent of what rawlins erroneously thinks of as religion." it is distinctly noticeable that mr. rawlins fails miserably to touch on truth except when he reports personally on what he feels. [i do him the justice of assuming that he is not misinforming us as to his personal reactions.] one can account for this by the hypothesis that he has an idiosyncratic and personal concept of truth. richard harter: smds inc. net address: rh@smds.com phone: 508-369-7398 us mail: smds inc., po box 555, concord ma 01742. fax: 508-369-8272 in the fields of hell where the grass grows high are the graves of dreams allowed to die. 
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 objective morality is morality built from objective values. and organized religion is a religion built from organized values. and ford tempo is a tempo built from ford values. and rational response is response built from rational values. and unconditional surrender is surrender built from unconditional values. uncle! -jim halat 
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 = <1qhn7m$a95@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@d012s658.uucp (frank o'dwyer) [culled from a discussion on christianity and objective morals] question: is there any effective difference between: "objective values exist, and there is disagreement over what they are" "values are subjective?" i don't see any. is there any difference in saying "absolute truth exists, but some people think its a lie" "truth is relative" ? i think there is: in both examples, the first statement is a fundamental disagreement between at least two people; the second statement is agreed upon by all. to put it another way, someone who says objective values exist does not agree that values are subjective. -jim halat 
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 really? you don't know what objective value is? if i offered the people of the u.s., collectively, $1 for all of the land in america, would that sound like a good deal? that happens to be a subjective example that the people of the us would happen to agree on. continue to move the price up; at some point a few people would accept then more then more until probably all would accept at a high enough number. endpoints of a subjective scale are not the given homes of objective viewpoints. -jim halat 
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 firstly, science has its basis in values, not the other way round. so you better explain what objective atoms are, and how we get them from subjective values, before we go any further. atoms are not objective. they aren't even real. what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. all of which is subjective. what is objective, though, is the approach a scientist takes in discussing his model and his observations. there is no objective science. but there is an objective approach which is subjectively selected by the scientist. objective in this case means a specified, unchanging set of rules that he and his colleagues use to discuss their science. this is in contrast to your objective morality. there may be an objective approach to subjectively discuss your beliefs on morality. but there exists no objective morality. also, science deals with how we can discuss our observations of the physical world around us. in that the method of discussion is objective ( not the science; not the discussion itself ). science makes no claims to know the whys or even the hows sometimes of what we can observe. it simply gives us a way to discuss our surroundings in a meaningful, consistent way. i think it was neils bohr who said (to paraphrase) science is what we can _say_ about the physical world. -jim halat 
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 atoms are not objective. they aren't even real. what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. all of which is subjective. omigod, it's an operationalist! sorry, jim, but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a "model" is more than sensible people can accept -- your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding. the point about its being real or not is that one does not waste time with what reality might be when one wants predictions. the questions if the atoms are there or if something else is there making measurements indicate atoms is not necessary in such a system. and one does not have to write a new theory of existence everytime new models are used in physics. don't forget to prove your last sentence, namely that sensible don't accept that. 
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 tell me are you really this stupid, or are you just pretending. tell me are you really this stupid, or are you just pretending. i have fire insurance that i hope i never have to use. a fire insurance is not an offensive weapon. i have a spare tire in my trunk that i hope i never have to use. a spare tire is not an offensive weapon. how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god's will, and who there- jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back? 
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 |> >these laws written for the israelites, god's chosen people whom god had |> >expressly set apart from the rest of the world. the israelites were a |> >direct witness to god's existence. to disobey god after knowing that god is |> >real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable. |> >remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to |> >god's chosen people. but jesus has changed all of that. we are living in the |> >age of grace. sin is no longer immediately punishable by death. there is |> >repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ. and not just |> >for a few chosen people. salvation is available to everyone, jew and gentile |> >alike. |> sorry if this is late for the thread, but... |> i thought god was supposed to be constant and never-changing. how do |> you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above? god never changes. sorry, but yes he does, by your own description. he still loves us. sending jesus was one of his attempts to reconcile with mankind. humorous, this notion of an all-knowing, all-powerful god who must "attempt" to "reconcile" with his lowly creations. i realize that it is not possible to penetrate such logic, but is there any chance that you might consider that an omnipotent god need not "attempt" anything, and further that an attempt to "reconcile" implies a lack of what you are doing here is projecting human weaknesses onto your god. |> also, while we're at it: |> 1. how do you reconcile "a kind and loving god!!" with the |> judeo-christian view that sin was at one time "immediately punishable |> by death"? was killing people for sinning god's way of showing |> kindness and love? sinning in the face of god was punishable by immediate death. there are several ot passages to back this up. god is god. but all humans are sinners, thus all pre-jesus humans should have been punished with death. we aren't punished with sin now, of course, because god has changed. he required a brutal, sadistic sacrifice of his own blood in order to allow us to sin without immediate death. he cannot tolerate the prescence of sin in his midst. yet he does so now. he has changed. the sadistic murder of his own son has made him more tolerant of our sins. besides, his "midst" is everywhere, so your statement is meaningless. he tolerates sin in hell, which surely is in his midst as well. also, given that he is all-knowing, he must have eternal knowledge of who will commit which sins, as well as when and where, so what does tolerance have to do with anything. all of this is absolute nonsense, unless your god is not indeed all-knowing and all-powerful, or unless he doesn't take the personal interest in everyday affairs that you and the israelites knew this! and still, some of them chose to disobey and were destroyed. were these people kind and loving themselves? not relevant. the claim of kindness and lovingness was made by you in reference to your god. the nature of his creations/victims is not at god gave them every break he could but in the end, he really had no choice in the matter. i see: an all-knowing god who did not know what the ultimate outcome would be, and an all-powerful god who had no choice in the matter. seeing as how we were failing to achieve salvation on our own, he sent his son to die for us - to be the ultimate sin offering. did i miss something? did you give some indication at to why a kind and loving god should require sadistic human sacrifice to allow his own botched creations to "achieve salvation"? |> 2. is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of |> having made a mistake? he sent his son as a consolation to us, out of love. i note that your answer physically follows my question, but i fail to discern a connection between the two. by the way, for what am i being consoled? |> 3. now that we are "living in the age of grace", does this mean that |> for our sins, god now damns us to eternal hell after we die, rather |> than killing us immediately? if so, is this eternal damnation an |> example of "a kind and loving god!!"? hey, let's be fair for a moment here. kind and loving does not mean a free ride. why not? by the way, i note for the record that you didn't answer the there is an amount of give and take as in any relationship. parents are supposed to be kind and loving but does that mean that children can do whatever they want? not! part of being a parent means administering punishment when the child is at fault. death and/or eternal damnation is your idea of correctional punishment? i hope you aren't a parent. part of being a parent means giving instruction. god tests us through the trial of life such that we may grow stronger. he teaches what is right and what is wrong. this is quite an elaborate fantasy that you've constructed, but sadly it lacks a basis in reality. it also does not address the questions that i raised. the consequences of our actions are made clear to us, be it heaven or be it hell. if god did not follow through with what he has warned us about, he would not be a very good parent. the god that you describe is not a good parent, but a tyrant. in parenting, if a parent issues a warning but does not follow through with it, the children will not take that parent's words very seriously. god does the same by telling us who have ears to hear what to do and what not to do. by life's trials, we see the folly of doing our own will rather than his. he warns us about the consequences of rejecting him when it comes time for judgement. sorry, was that the god of the bible whose rules i am to follow, or the god of the koran? the vedas? the book of koresh? oh, yes, it's all so clear. do we follow him? i will. bully for you. 
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 mr. clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the waco fiasco should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so. now, i began scratching my head thinking (a bad sign :-), "don't the mainstream religions (in this case christianity...or the 7th day adventist in particular) just keep these guys going ? isn't mr. clinton condemning his own religion ? after all, isn't it a cult too ?" ... bad thoughts these. well it depends on whether you take the literal dictionary definition of cult and say all faiths are cults, or if you take a more social-context view of "cult which allows you to recognize mainstream religions as socially-acceptable and cults as groups that involve techniques of brain- washing and all the other characteristics that define oppressive [probly not the *best* word] cult behaviour. my understanding of the academic use of the word cult is that it is a group of people oriented around a single authority figure. it need not be religious. however, i have seen plenty of religious cults, including some that mainstream. 
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 please explain how koresh was defending himself from those children who who ever said he was? what is obvious is that he was defending himself, and his followers, from the government. whether you think he was right or wrong in this is another question. if he was right, then he had the moral right to kill those kgbatf agents. --ray cote the killing of the atf agents is a separate issue. my point is that many children died because of koresh defending himself. did he have what you call the "moral right" to keep those children in a dangerous enviroment in order to defend himself? tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources thenrion@sbctri.sbc.com 
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 in <930415.112243.8v6.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk there's no objective physics; einstein and bohr have told us that. speaking as one who knows relativity and quantum mechanics, i say: speaking as someone who also knows relativity and quantum mechanics, i say: go ahead, punk, make my day. my degree can beat up your degree. ok, refer us to the place in einstein's (or bohr's) writings where he said 'there's no objective physics.' ah, you taking everything as literal quotation. no wonder you're confused. first, can i ask that we decide on a definition of "objective"? there's no objective reality. lsd should be sufficient to prove that. speaking as one who has taken lsd, i say: well, i'll have to bow to your superior knowledge on that one, but i think i detect a pattern in your responses. how about some actual support for your you take lsd, and it skews your perception of reality. you come down, and your perceptions unskew. how could striving toward an ideal be in any way useful, if the ideal had no objective existence? a perfectly efficient power station would convert all of the energy in coal into electricity. there is absolutely no way we can build a perfect power station; it's an ideal. but striving towards that ideal is undeniably useful and valuable, is it not? ok, let me narrow the question. is it useful to strive toward a (nonexistent) objective ethics? i'd guess that it might be. in what way? it may be the case that some people are unable to evaluate complex moral issues. rather than leaving them to behave "immorally", it might be better to offer them an abstract (nonexistent objective) system of ethics which they can strive towards, coded into rules which they don't have to derive for i tend to feel that this is pretty much what we all have as morality anyway... 
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 #got it in one. similarly, a moral relativist will not judge one moral syste #to be better than another in every possible circumstance. this does not, #however, preclude him from judging one moral system to be better than anothe #in a specific set of circumstances. nor does it preclude a set of moral #relativists from collectively judging a moral system, from some set of #circumstances which they all agree they are in. o.k., this makes sense to me. (i'm serious, you've explained something to me which i never understood before). but just for grins, suppose we almost all agree that we are in a set of circumstances called "reality". what then? then we all live happily ever after. :-) seriously, if we all agreed on the circumstances we're in, i suspect we'd all agree on the best course of action. unfortunately, i have no confidence that such a situation will ever arise. some of us think there's a big god in the sky, some don't. some think they've been chosen by god, others disagree. some think they are infallible, others think otherwise. until those disagreements over circumstances can be ironed out, there's little hope of everyone agreeing. or say, for all practical intents and purposes, there is no frame of reference in which thus and such is good, isn't that approximately objective, in the same way that we usually expect a speeding bullet to outrun a snail? yes. i think that, for example, only a vanishingly small number of people would hold that there's a frame of reference in which gassing six million jews is good. so that's probably about as close to an objective moral value as i've encountered in my life so far. for example, if we hear of a bomb in a crowded area, isn't it a rather sensible first guess that this is an immoral act, even though there conceivably might be some tail-end case that would justify it? well, i think your example's poor. if the bomb's in iraq, for example, and was dropped by an american plane, many people would hold that it was a moral #> #> and what weasel word do you use to describe that frame of reference, if #> #> it isn't an objective reality for values? #> #i'm sorry, i can't parse "an objective reality for values". could you tr #> #again? #> s/an objective reality for values/some values are real even in the face #> of disagreement/ #i still don't quite see what you're trying to say. i assume by "values" you #mean moral values, yes? in which case, what do you mean by "real"? what is #a "real" moral value, as opposed to an unreal one? i mean to say that values are as real as horses, whatever you understand by a horse being real is pretty much what i mean about a value being real. hmm. so these moral values have a perceptible physical presence? #> if you are saying that some moral systems are better than others, in #> your opinion, then all you get is infinite regress. #sorry, but in what way is it an infinite regress? it looks extremely finite #to me. i meant that it's never more than your opinion. right, and the chain ends right there. the buck stops with me. it's not an infinite regress. you've clarified this for me above. my understanding is now that if a supermajority of relativists agree that thus and such is wrong in almost any or all frames of reference, then they're saying something which is to all practical intents and purposes no different than what i'm saying. right. the key point, however, is that there are vanishingly few of these moral issues where we can get 99.9% of people to agree on the outcome for all frames of reference (and agree on the frames of reference...) #> what you do not get #> is any justification for saying that the moral system of the terrorist #> is inferior to that of the man of peace. #sorry, but that's not so. i can provide a justification for asserting that #the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace. #i just can't provide a justification which works in all possible #circumstances. logically possible, or actually possible? i can't manage either. killing hitler using a car bomb would have been a terrorist act, but i have to admit that i couldn't exactly condemn it. although there are tricky philosophical issues to do with hindsight... by which i mean, are you stretching possible to include events such as the atoms in my terminal switching places so that the terminal turns upside down, or do you think it likely that circumstances will arise in which terrorism is superior to peace. i think that circumstances have already arisen where terrorism would have been better than peace. better in terms of numbers of innocent people killed. assuming it was successful terrorism, of course. 
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 [ there are actually some talk.abortion related comments below, believe it or not... ] in article <930422.113530.7w1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk# mathew <mathew@mant #> specifically, i'd like to know what relativism concludes when two #> people grotesquely disagree. is it: #> (a) both are right #> (b) one of them is wrong, and sometimes (though perhaps rarely) we have a #> pretty good idea who it is #> (c) one of them is wrong, but we never have any information as to who, so #> we make our best guess if we really must make a decision. #> (d) the idea of a "right" moral judgement is meaningless (implying that #> whether peace is better than war, e.g., is a meaningless question, #> and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer) #> (e) something else. a short, positive assertion would be nice. #from whose point of view would you like to know what relativism concludes? #one of the people involved in the argument, or some third person observing #the arguers? i've just come from responding another of your posts, where some pennies have dropped for me. but it would clarify further if you would answer from the point of view of any disinterested observers - perhaps an observer as likely to be in position a as in position b (where a and b disagree) in the future, and have his or her conclusion now binding on them at that time. well, if our observer x is as likely to be in a's position as b's, and if he agrees that both a and b are making appropriate observations and inferences regarding the situation, then i would expect him to conclude that there is no right answer. hopefully there would be some other factor which would allow him to make some judgement regarding which answer to accept. if, on the other hand, he disagrees with the principles of either a or b, i suspect he would make a decision in favour of the other one. it is unfortunately the case that not all moral arguments have answers from all perspectives. for instance, i am completely unable to come to any conclusion regarding whether abortion should be allowed or not, from my perspective. in an ideal world, all living things would have a right to life; but in an ideal world, women would have the absolute right to do what they like with their own bodies. clearly there is no way to resolve in favour of both these principles. therefore i agree with the compromise solution of allowing abortion up to a certain time after conception, and deciding on the time based on various (sometimes ill-defined) criteria. this is also a sensible move, i think, because it lets people make their own decisions (within reason). and for what it's worth, i am reasonably happy with current uk abortion law. similarly, the situation in what's left of yugoslavia is a horrible mess, and i really can't see my way to any sort of conclusion. there, i don't even know enough to imagine what sort of compromise one might manage. 
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 question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists (stephen tice, the cotera, joe gaut, et al)(apologies if i've mislabelled any of you, i've only started reading t.r.m since the bd disaster. but i know the cotera is a fundy) and are defending koresh and his beliefs as an example of true christianity under persecution from the the big bad secular state: what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits? if the reports are accurate, what iyo does this say about the quality of his christianity? or are the allegations just part of the big cover-up? thank you, steve. it is refreshing to have someone accuse me of being a christian. i only hope enough evidence can be garnered to get a conviction. i am not certain what you mean by the "fundy" part as the term fundamentalist has a wide variety of uses. if you refer to i use it to refer to those christians who take a more conservative-literalist approach to the bible, as distinct from "liberals". those who actually believe jesus is the messiah and son of god and wish to follow in his way, then i plead guilty. but what does it i would use the word "christian" (unqualified) to describe someone to whom the above definition applied. btw, it applies to me. [deletia: joe gaut indicates his interest in the bd disaster is from a civil liberties issue, not an attempt to justify koresh's beliefs and/or practices.] i agree with joe about this: if some group wants to believe in whatever god or invisible pink unicorns and go off and live together and have group sex, or no sex, or sex only for the leaders (but not with children), then, as much as i might believe them to be misguided, i think they should have the legal right. and i hope the investigation will start by determining whether the feds had any *legitimate* reason for going after koresh in the first place (before moving on to consider the wisdom of various tactics used). [joe goes on to dispute the child-abuse allegations. i'll (provisionally) accept this, unless someone has evidence to support the allegations?] actually i wasn't thinking about the (alleged) child abuse, but about the reports that he had sex with, and fathered children by, several women in the cult. i agree this is not a legal matter - consenting adults and all that - but stephen tice seems to be defending koresh's beliefs and practices from specifically *christian* perspective, not a civil liberties perspective. i think my question is not really aimed at joe (and possibly not at ray cote either, who seems to also be taking the political angle), but at stephen tice. | steve watson a.k.a. watson@sce.carleton.ca === carleton university, ontario | | this->opinion = my.opinion; assert (this->opinion != carletonu.opinion); | "somebody touched me / making everything new / burned through my life / like a bolt from the blue / somebody touched me / i know it was you" - bruce cockburn 
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 omigod, it's an operationalist! sorry, jim, but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a "model" is more than sensible people can accept -- your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding. first of all, i have no phobia of objective reality. i'm simply saying that the scientific model of the atom is probably not what is really out there. i'm not saying that there's no object that sources these properties we measure from atomic theory. you hadn't made that clear; i'm glad to have it clarified! so you're a (physical) objectivist, after all, right? take light as another example. there are two theories: particle and wave. each one fails to predict the behavior of light as some point. so which is it: particle or wave? you tell me. you're the sensible wavicle! next question? ;-) mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research, inc. is purely coincidental 
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 simply put, evolution/creation when each is looked at properly - theory/fact vs. assertion/fiction - is a specific example of exactly what separates reason and science from nonsense. although i agree that creation is nonsense, i submit that you are making the same mistake that creationists commonly do. in this and previous posts, i think you have been engaging in the fallacy of false dichotomy; you have consistently characterized science/religion as rationalism/nonsense, when in fact the latter do not form a complete set of options. neither do the former, for that matter. i wish that the semi-explicit linking of evolution to so-called "rational" atheism could be avoided; it just gives the creationists fuel for their often-repeated incantation that "evolution leads to atheism." -- dave no, dave, and as an anthropologist i take great umbrage with this misrepresentation. i sense that it is you that has made the jump from creation (science) to religion (see above). i have characterized science/*creation science* as rationalism/nonsense, and that it is. when people promote their religious beliefs as science they become nonsense. kept where they belong they are meaningful and useful, as virtually any anthropologists will tell you, and as i have said several times in this group. and it works the other way, too, and i have repeatedly said so. never have i said or meant anything different, here or elsewhere, and i don't think my communication skills betray me. nor do i presume to offend people's spiritual sensibilities, as i would hope others would not disparage mine. rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota 
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 |>btw, david koresh was not |>jesus christ as he claimed. how can you tell for sure? three days haven't passed yet. steve bittrolff the previous is my opinion, and is shared by any reasonably intelligent person. 
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 god itself appeared to me and spoke to me, saying "rawlins has been listening to a deamon, and has been taken in by its satanic words!" now, how we tell which divine inspiration comes from the one true god and which comes from a satanic trickster? 
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 i saw one theist on this net talking about the absurdity of one saying he doesn't believe in god, and how can we be sure. the problem with this and other arguments assumes that the burden of proof lies with the atheist. wrong! in philosophy the one who is making a positive argument must give reasons for his believing so, not the negative. if i were to make the statement elves exist, then it would be up to me to prove my positive assertion, not the person saying that elves don't exist. if the negative in this case had to prove elves don't exist he would have to omniscient and know every inch of the universe. the same applies with god. give me your reasons, and you (the theist) make the case. i think you have are addressing the wrong issue. the situation is more like: we both see some elves. this is established as fact since we can both touch them etc. then one of us says, the elves have always been with us. the other says, no no there was a time before elves were here. which is the positive argument? ________ lionel tun, lionel@cs.city.ac.uk ________ / /_ __/\ computer vision group /\ \__ _\ /___/_/_/\/ city university, london ec1v 0hb \ \___\_\_\ \___\_\_\/ 071-477 8000 ext 3889 \/___/_/_/ 
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 |>there's no objective reality. lsd should be sufficient to prove that. |speaking as one who has taken lsd, i say: |bullshit. oh, lawdy. if that experience didn't teach you that your perceptions are always going to get between you & "reality", it sure did! i don't know what will. have you read anything about how your brain works? about various sensory illusions you can be tricked by? i have; and all the above teach me that accurately perceiving reality is a tricky business -- _not_ that there's no reality. c j silverio cj@sgi.com ceej@well.sf.ca.us "last friday, april 16, 1943, i was forced to interrupt my work in the laboratory in the middle of the afternoon and proceed home, being affected by a remarkable restlessness, combined with a slight dizziness." --albert hofmann mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research, inc. is purely coincidental 
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 #recently, i've asked myself a rather interesting question: what right does #god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ?? #in his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live #according to his rules, we will burn in hell. well, with what right can god #make that desicion? let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates #every one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). what then #happens, is that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. well, i didn't #ask to be created. #let's make an analogue. if a scientist creates a unique living creature #(which has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the #right to expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...? dear joakim, let me begin by saying that these are excellent questions, but that by asking, you will find as many different explanations as there are respondents. as a latter-day saint, i believe that all of us (you, me, etc.) lived once as spirit-children of god the father (hebrews 12:9) in the pre-mortal existance. in order to continue our eternal progression, an earthly probationary time was required. (to live by faith, not by sight, to choose good over evil, and to prepare ourselves in all things to become worthy of a higher order of existance.) we believe that all of god's spirit-offspring were once assembled to discuss the specifics of this earthly sojourn. one-third chose for lucifer's plan, most followed the firstborn (the pre-mortal jesus christ). lucifer's aspirations ("i will exalt my throne above the stars of god . . ." isaiah 14:12-17, etc.) resulted into the rebellion of his followers against the firstborn and those who followed him, resulting in the casting out of lucifer (who became satan, the father of lies) and one-third of the hosts of heaven ("and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth . . ." revelation 12:4) as demons (evil spirits). to get back on our choice to be born on this earth, and to be subject to god and his plan (for good or bad, based upon our obedience and choices), we made that choice individually. (god speaking to job: "where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth, . . . when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of god shouted for joy?" job 38:4-7). we lost the knowledge of our pre-mortal existance (the "veil of forgetful- ness," somewhere in psalms), in order to live by faith, not by sight. you may not accept this scenario, neither do quite a few who rely on the bible alone, which offers only fragmentary insights into this particular aspect of our existence as individuals, as sons and daughters of god. #who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so #righteous as god likes us to believe? are all christians a flock of sheep, #unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? #hmmmmmmmmmmmm. (all christians, by definition, are a flock of sheep, following the shepherd as they understand him ;-) --but in any event, not all christians believe in the same theology, such as the one latter-day saints believe in. (they will cry "heresy" and other accusations of "perverting" the doctrines of the bible, while they themselves believe in a myriad of interpretations, as found in their catechisms and various do-it-yourself bible-study manuals...) as for me, i have a personal conviction that the pre-existance scenario as explained above, is most in harmony with biblical doctrine, some dead sea scroll books, the pseudographion, other (jewish) sources, and last but not least, modern-day revelation on the subject. #i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm, i mean it. # how should one deal with a man who is convinced that # he is acting according to god's will, and who there- # jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by # stabbing you in the back? # -voltaire casper c. knies isscck@byuvm.bitnet brigham young university isscck@vm.byu.edu ucs computer facilities 
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 sunlight shining off of the ocean. the universe, mirrored in a puddle. aleph null bottles of beer on the wall, aleph null bottles of beer! take one down, pass it around ... aleph null bottles of beer on the wall! isn't it amazing how there *always* seems to be *another* bottle of bheer there? aleph *one* bottles of beer on the wall, aleph *one* null bottles of beer! you, too, are a puddle. as above, so below. wow, look at alllthe pretty puddles!!!! jimmy crack koan, and i don't care, jimmy crack koan and i don't care, jimmy crack koan and i don't care, zen master's gone away..... la morte, who wants to take one down and pass it around. (the beer, not the koans.) 
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 : if anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion, : do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been : reserved. please choose another animal, preferably one not : on the endangered species list. how about "washed in the blood of barney the dinosaur"? :) judging from postings i've read all over usenet and on non-usenet bbs conferences, barney is definitely an endangered species. especially if he runs into me in a dark alley. a.lizard a.lizard internet addresses: alizard%tweekco%boo@pacbell.com (preferred) pacbell.com!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above) alizard@gentoo.com (backup) pgp2.2 public key available on request 
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 "this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars. ordo templi orientis. otherwise: the hermetic brotherhood of light. does this organization have an official e-mail address these days? (an address for any of the sf bay area lodges, e.g. thelema would do.) 93... a.lizard a.lizard internet addresses: alizard%tweekco%boo@pacbell.com (preferred) pacbell.com!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above) alizard@gentoo.com (backup) pgp2.2 public key available on request 
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 let me begin by saying i think this is the world's first religion to use the net as its major recruitment medium. therefore, even if this religion does not take off, its founding members will be very important historically as this method of soliciting membership will eventually become the basis of this religion is to apply various aspects of current conventional morality to the characters in genesis and exodus but assume that the bible's accounts of the facts and historical events is correct. for example, story of adam and eve: adam and eve are in garden of eden naked and ignorant. have unlimited supply of food provided, but no clothing, jobs, or knowledge. god says not to eat fruit of tree of knowledge. they do anyway, then try to hide in bushes. god finds them and forces them out of garden. (there are several different stories on what they were doing while naked in the bushes that might have angered god.) traditional philosophy: 1. the only reason you need knowledge or a job is to eat. if someone else will provide you with food, then you can be stupid and unemployed and it's ok. this is why married women usually didn't work until recent decades. 2. authority figures, such as god, whoever was behind the vietnam war, hitler and slaveowners, are always right and should be blindly followed without question by ordinary people, who can't make decisions for themselves. interpretation of events based on traditional philosophy: they were not supposed to eat the fruit. they should have done whatever god told them to. like small children, they had their needs provided for and were obligated to do whatever their "father" said to. being forced to leave the garden and work in order to obtain food was a punishment. lessons from traditional interpretation: 1. ignorance is good. knowledge is bad, but tempting. 2. having food provided for you for nothing (read "welfare") is ideal. get- ting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn is punishment. 3. public nudity is good. covering up is bad. 4. authority figures are intrinsically right. normal people are dumb and should do whatever they are told without question. they should not think for 5. people in subordinate positions are especially obligated to refrain from learning. for example, it should be illegal for slaves to learn to read. 1990's philosophy: 1. people should seek education and employment outside the home, unless named "hillary clinton" or "murphy brown". 2. people should use common sense. they should not kill other people (binding of issac, wars, holocaust, etc.) just because they are told to. interpretation of events based on current philosophy: they were supposed to eat the fruit. god gave wanted them to seek knowledge rather than be handed it on a silver platter. once they had gained knowledge and (by seeking it) showed their ability to make mature decisions for them- selves, they no longer needed to be treated like little children and were rewarded by being allowed into the "real world." lessons from new interpretation: 1. ignorance is bad. knowledge is good, but must be sought. 2. having food provided for you for nothing (read "welfare") is at best a temporary measure. getting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn is ideal. 3. public nudity is bad. covering up is good. 4. authority figures are often wrong. normal people are intelligent and should consider whether the instructions are really a good idea and "alter or abolish" bad governments. they should think for themselves. 5. people in subordinate decisions are often discouraged from knowledge but should seek it anyway, and all the harder. for example, poor children without good schools should work especially hard in order to make a better life for their children (and themselves). i have tentatively named this new philosophy "the church of eveism" because eve's decision to eat the apple is man[sic]kind's first good decision, instead of its first bad one, as traditionally believed. she is therefore clearly a protagonist. god at first appears evil, for telling people not to seek knowledge but on deeper analysis is also a protagonist. as god rewarded the decision to defy him, and provided the tree in the first place, the intention and desire were clearly to have the knowledge be obtained, but to delay it until it was actively sought. ---end serious discussion. begin humor.-- save this post to disk (or file server). someday it will be considered the most important writing since the 10 commandments. you want an original copy. stay tuned for the rfd on soc.religion.eveism... can i get a tax deduction for money i donate to this organization? --return to serious discussion when posting follow-ups.-- stephen weinstein weinss@rpi.edu 
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 brian kendig first states: i am my own master. i ask: are you truly the master of yourself? brian kendig states: not yet . . . make up your mind. . . . but my life is the ground i use to practice on. the fun is in the getting there! we don't start out perfect . . . . and we do not end perfect either. we are never perfect. can you name one person, young or old, past or present, that you deem perfect? good luck. i know my shortcomings, and i know my strengths, and i live my life according to the decisions i make, and i am content to abide with the consequences of my decisions as easily as i'll accept the +praise for them. there have been times in my life when i've made mistakes, yes; i try to never make the same mistake twice. then you lie to yourself. you do not know your shortcomings. i have clearly shown one of your shortcomings, if not two. that is, ignorance of the bible and the arrogance you demonstrate butchering it without even knowing its i regard christ as a myth. because you have been too prideful to examine the record of him for yourself. and to demonstate your lack of support for your conclusion, i bet you do not even know what the word "christ" means. or which prophet used "christ" to describe the "son of man". i feel that there are far too many people offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and did. the only person who can really judge me is *me*. yes. i agree with that. so we must learn first. read the bible. come up with our own interpretation. evaluate what is being said and by whom. check the history books as well. compare someone else's interpretation with your own. then make a judgment. but i tell you the truth, 99% of what is being said in the bible needs interpretation as much as a coffee cup needs interpretation. and remember, the bible isn't a guru's esoteric guide to metaphysics. it doesn't take a theologian to understand what is being said. the bible is a bunch of testimonies from people like you and i addressed to people like you and i. these guys wrote down what they saw and heard. is it their open diary--and they want to tell you something. and because they want you to know something, they make it very clear what they want you to know. they didn't encouch their ideas in esoteric rhetoric, but in simple straight-forward language. i choose the roads i travel, and i decide whether or not i want to reach the end of any given road or turn back -- and as long as i don't *always* turn back, there's no shame in it. when i need help, i seek out my friends. you have chosen the road that avoids the bible. you have chosen the road that avoids a confrontation with the living god because that road doesn't look appealing to you. you rather build your own road. one that goes far away from that confrontation. but be assured of this, you will have to confront him one day willingly or unwillingly. and you don't have a clue about what i'm saying, either. open your eyes and see; open your ears and listen. i'm not just spouting off empty words. this is my life, this is what gives me meaning. i see what you mean. i hear what your saying. i am not degrading your life. but i have heard the same irrational excuses for years. there is nothing new in what you are saying. and by your own words, you are "spouting off" contradictions. if contradictions give you meaning, then your life must be sad. i say my mother loves me. how do i know, you ask? i can point to definite things she's done for me, and i can even just bring her to you so you can ask her, face-to-face. you say your deity loves you. how do you know, i ask? bingo. for god so loved the world, he gave his only begotton to son so that whososever belives in him will have ever lasting life. i look what god *did*. he has given his son, even to his death, so that i can have hope in his resurrection and know that life isn't for nothing, but has glorious purpose. you can't even convince me that it exists! because you turn your eyes away from testimony and history. you choose to lie to yourself that he doesn't exist, for you ignore what has been said for thousands of years. you sound exactly, almost verbatim, like the lazarus of jesus's story starting in luke 16:19. and the conclusion of that story is a bleak one. lazarus wound up in hell. the story ends like this: "for if lazarus doesn't even listen to moses and the prophets, he won't even believe if a man rose from the dead." if any god dangles 'heaven' before me like a carrot, promising untold pleasures to me if i'll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my rationality for just this once, then i would choose 'hell'. i can *not* lie to myself to placate another being, no matter how powerful it is. arrogance at its best. the fact is, you are not rational. several specific cases have already been cited. and again with this new statement, you show more irrationality with regards to heaven. jesus does tell you something of what to expect in heaven. jesus expects you to use your brain to believe in him. jesus does not expect you to placate either. jesus wants you to willingly come to him, but not as his grovelling slave, but rather as his brother who will share in his glorious riches. why do you not pick up the bible and read it for yourself. you maintain you have an open mind. see whether you are lying to yourself for why would you want to live a good life? to you, you die and that's it. don't contradict yourself. you have no reason to live a good life. it doesn't do you any good in the end. your life doesn't do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway. so you have no reason to lead a good life. leading a good life is meaningless. why do you do such a meaningless thing? that paragraph demonstrates that you haven't listened to a single word i've said. i do understand what you said. but that's is not what i feel went amiss here. you missed the point. living a "good life" has no eternal consequences. once they close the amusement park of life, to you that is the end. to you, it is over. to you, therefore, your time spent in the amusement park is meaningless. it has no eternal consequences to you nor to anyone left on earth. but then you contradict yourself. from a previous post, you said doing evil things is bad. to you, it shouldn't matter if you do evil things or good things. it is all meaningless in the end anyway. so go rob a bank. go tell someone you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag. what's restraining you? life after all, has no eternal consequences and accountability is irrelevant. in the same way, i think life is fun. and i don't intend to leave the amusement park of life until they close down for the night! :-d at which time, you are truly not the master of yourself. i'm sorry, i don't feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in which case it's not really all that important. has the resurrection sunk in? jesus is alive. jesus is not dead. so you (and your holy book) say. by the same token, therefore, santa claus delivers toys every xmas. don't you see? i have no reason to believe that what you say is true. please give me some reason that i can't similarly apply to santa claus. you have every reason to believe that what jesus says and the witnesses of jesus say are true. but you choose to be unreasonable and "ignore" the reasons. by definition, "ignorance". santa claus is said to live at the north pole and have a squad of elves and flying reindeer. ever see a flying reindeer? has anyone in human history seen a flying reindeer? has anyone seen a reindeer whose nose blinks red? on the other hand, are people born in bethlehem? was nebuchandezzar really a king? was daniel really one of his court officials? were david and solomon really kings of israel and judah? was their really a king called jehoachin? did sennecherib really attack jerusalem 600 years before christ? did sennacherib really lose his battle--and badly? was there really a caiaphas who interrogated jesus? yes, yes, yes . . . history verifies it. it is nonfiction. do you have a problem discerning truth from fiction? perhaps you can't evaluate the context of grimm's fairy tales apart from that of the scientific american. i suppose you treat both with equal truthfulness or equal falsity. is this what you are telling me? or is it that just do want to read the scientific american and find out that it's not a fairy tale? are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a collection of verses in a book, and cannot be supported without invoking them? get real. have you ever been to zaire? do you have to go there to be assured that there really is such a place? given your irrationality, i take it you have never used a map in your life. why do you believe what you believe? given the overwhelming evidence as well as my personal experience with the living god, i'd be an irrational unreasoning ignorant fool if i didn't follow jesus. 
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 the law of retribution violent crime, racism, bigotry, domestic abuse, rape, police brutality and oppression, human rights violations, etc., etc., continue to get worse and worse in spite of more and more man-made laws on all levels from local ordinances to international law. the man-made laws are not working. "what we have here is failure to communicate!" perpetrators remain ignorant of the law--a universal, cosmic, and spiritual law--the "law of retribution" or "karma": "be not deceived; god is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." galatians 6:7, kjv. "he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. here is the patience and faith of the saints." revelation 13:10, kjv. "what goes around comes around." this law of the universe is just as real as the physical law that for every action there is an equal and opposite it is the enforcement, the teeth, behind the "golden rule": "do unto others as you would have others do unto you." all perpetrators in the present will become victims in the future, most likely in a future incarnation. most victims in the present were perpetrators in the past, usually during a previous life. what is needed is a massive worldwide program of education to teach all present and potential perpetrators, in a convincing manner (with sufficient supporting evidence), that what they do to others will be done to them, in this life or the next. anyone who doubts the fact of reincarnation, and the related "law of retribution", should read books such as "here and hereafter", by ruth montgomery, which describes several kinds of evidence supporting reincarnation, including hypnotic regression to past lives [about 50% accurate; the subconscious mind can sometimes make things up, especially with a bad hypnotist], spontaneous recall (especially by young children, some of whom can identify their most recent previous relatives, homes, possessions, etc.), dream recall of past life experiences, deja vu (familiarity with a far off land while traveling there for the first time on vacation), the psychic readings of the late edgar cayce, and even supporting statements from the christian bible including matthew 17:11-13 (john the baptist was the reincarnation of elias.) and john 9:1-2 (how can a person possibly sin before he is born, unless he lived before?!). strong interests, innate talents, strong phobias, etc., typically originate from a person's past lives. for example, a strong fear of swimming in or traveling over water usually results from having drowned at the end of a previous life. and sometimes a person will take an immediate dislike to another person being met for the first time in their present life, because of a bad encounter with him during a previous people would behave much better toward each other if they knew that their actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the future, or in a future incarnation! for more information, answers to your questions, etc., please consult my cited sources (books like "here and hereafter", by ruth montgomery). un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine 2nd initiate in eckankar, (but not an agent thereof) 
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 sorry, the san jose based rosicrucian order is called a.m.o.r.c, i don't remember for the time being what the a.m. stand for but o.r.c is ordo rosae crucis, in other words latin for order of the rose cross. sigh, seems l'm loosing more and more of my long term memory. otherwise their headquarters in san jose has a pretty decent metaphysical bookstore, if any of you are interested in such books. and my son loves to run around in their egyptian museum. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 i am surprised and saddened. i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born-again gospel-thumping in-your-face we're- the-only-true-christian protestants, but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this. please do not stoop to the level of the e b-a g-t i-y-f w-t-o-t-c protestants, who think that the best way to witness is to be strident, intrusive, loud, insulting and overbearingly self-righteous. (pleading mode on) please! i'm begging you! quit confusing religious groups, and stop making generalizations! i'm a protestant! i'm an evangelical! i don't believe that my way is the only way! i'm not a "creation scientist"! i don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails! if you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling out (and making obtuse generalizations about) fundamentalists. if you compared the actions of presbyterians or methodists with those of southern baptists, you would think that they were different religions! [sarcasm on] be sure we pick on the "correct groups" here. "bible thumpers", "fundamentalists", and southern baptists *deserve* our hasty generalizations and prejudicial statements. just don't pick on the presbyterians and the methodists! [sarcasm off] please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the same, so please don't write off all protestants or all evangelicals! (pleading mode off.) god.......i wish i could get ahold of all the thomas stories...... "fbzr enval jvagre fhaqnlf jura gurer'f n yvggyr oberqbz, lbh fubhyq nyjnlf pneel n tha. abg gb fubbg lbhefrys, ohg gb xabj rknpgyl gung lbh'er nyjnlf znxvat n pubvpr." --yvan jregzhyyre jemaleddin sasha david cole iv - chief of knobbery research dlphknob@camelot.bradley.edu 
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 because, of course, that possibility existed. meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his/her own, which makes more sense than forcing those who don't want to participate to have to take part. what other reason is there for an organized "moment of silence"? a "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone* participates. otherwise it's not silent, now is it? the whole point is, maybe everyone _doesn't want_ to participate. blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic. blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from becoming the official u.s. religion. not noticing that danger is utterly idiotic. | steve novak | |"ban the bomb!" "ban the pope!!"| steven@advtech.uswest.com 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84414">
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 if you check the news today, (ap) the "authorities also found a state-of-the-art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult's arsenal." [carl stern, justice department] yeah. in a fire that reportedly burned hotter than 1000 degrees-- hot enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable-- the authorities found a gun that was recognizably fully-automatic and state of the art. isn't that conveeeenient? matthew t. russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu some news readers expect "disclaimer:" here. just say no to police searches and seizures. make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84422">
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 the phenomenologist husserl, for one, considered intentionality to be the primary ontological "stuff" from which all other ontology was built -- perceptions, consciousness, thoughts, etc. frank is by no means alone in seeing intentionality (or "values", as he puts it) underlying all human experience, even the so-called "objective" experiences, such as measurements of the natural world, or the output of your des chip. and others of us see it as intellectual masturbation. i'll defer to your greater firsthand knowledge in such matters. 
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 [discussion on josephus inserts] thanks. am i correct, then, in assuming that that josephus did in fact write about jesus, but christian copists embellished it? that is indeed the present consensus. contrary to what dr. fox has been saying, however, present consensus is *not* that the longer passage in josephus about jesus was inserted, but only that it was there is no question that it was *at least* modified (based on what origen says--that josephus did not recognize jesus as the messiah), but i don't think the argument that it appears "out of context" is a very good one. (i haven't looked at the context for a while; perhaps somebody could give some of the sentences which precede and follow the jesus passage.) jim lippard lippard@ccit.arizona.edu dept. of philosophy lippard@arizvms.bitnet university of arizona tucson, az 85721 
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 i baptize you with water for repentance. but after me will come one who is more powerful than i, whose sandals i am not fit to carry. he will baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire. matthew 3:11 (niv) 
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 |i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day. |furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending |potentially dangerous and armed suspects. do you suggest that the police |always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have |been allowed to inspect the officers's badges? just what should the police do |when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects? how far can they |reasonably go to identiy themselves? what do you suggest they can do which |can't be faked by the "competition"? so instead you are asking individual citizens to place themselves at risk by assuming that everyone who claims to be a cop, actually is a cop. around here the police have actually made public service announcements saying that if you are a lady driving by yourself at night and you see blue lights flashing behind you. do not pull over until you reach a well lit, preferably occupied place, gas station etc. |even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's not an |excuse to murder police. it wouldn't be murder, it would be self defense. mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. wilson's theory of relativity: if you go back far enough, we're all related. mark.wilson@atlantaga.ncr.com 
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 one way or another -- so much for patience. too bad you couldn't just wait. was the prospect of god's message just too much to take? so you believe that david koresh really is jesus christ? well lets see - a long haired nut case with sexual hangups surrounded by a lot of gulible losers without a brain between them with a miserable and meaningless death to boot sounds like he fits the bill to me! joseph 'remember david koresh fried for you' askew joseph askew, gauche and proud in the autumn stillness, see the pleiades, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. disclaimer? sue, see if i care north of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, actually, i rather like brenda beyond the pale, the river murmurs on. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84431">
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 : in my mind, to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a : reach. science has its basis in observable fact. i'd say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is interpreted and what significance it's given depends a great deal on the values of the observer. science is a human activity and as such, is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human activity. the myth that scientists are above moral influence or ethical concern, that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist, is nonsense. : if one is to argue for objective values (in a moral sense) then one must : first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective. considering : the meaning of the word "objective" i doubt that this will ever happen. : so, back to the original question: : and objective morality is.....? this may be an unfortunate choice of words, almost self-contradictory. objective in the sense used here means something immutable and absolute while morality describes the behavior of some group of people. the first term is all inclusive, the second is specific. the concept supposedly described may have meaning however. if there is a god as described by the christians (for instance), then he has existence apart from and independent of humankind; his existence is outside of our frame of reference (reality). if this being declares a thing to be so, it is -necessarily- so since he has defined himself as omnipotent and, if his claims are to be believed, he is at least omnipotent relative to us. god is intrinsically self-defined and all reality is whatever he says it is - in an objective sense. if god determines a standard of conduct, that standard is objective. if human beings are held accountable for their conformance to that standard while permitted to ignore it, they substitute a relative morality or mode of conduct, giving the term morality a nebulous, meaningless sense that can be argued about by those pretending to misunderstand. the standard is objective and the conduct required to meet that standard is therefore objectively determined. just because it is convenient to pretend that the term morality is infinitely malleable, doesn't mean that the objective standard itself doesn't exist. morality has come to mean little more than a cultural norm, or the preferred conduct of "decent" people, making it seem subjective, but it is derived from an absolute, objective, standard. ironically, this objective standard is in perfect accord with our true nature (according to christianity at least), yet is condemned as being contrary to human nre, oppressive and severe. this may be due as much to our amoral inclinations as to the standard itself, but like it or not, it's there.x 
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 in math exam i have burden of proof when it says: "prove that no elements in set a=( n divided by 30 leaves 5 as a remainder, n prime, n integer) does exist." well, mathematics is formal science. real world may be different thing. but if entertainment (company) sell computer programs saying they are virus safe. doesn`t they have burden of proof that viruses don`t exist in their floppies ? i don't think so. the assumption is there. if it turns out that their software has a virus, then it is up to you to prove that fact to a court to get any damages. you are theoretically suppossed to be able to get damages for that, but you have to give some evidence that the virus came from that software. but since the computer company is the defendent, they are uninvolved until proven guilty. ----------------------- ktikkane@phoenix.oulu.fi ------------------- kari tikkanen ! . . -#- ! b ! begin sf-90550 oulu ! ! ! i = / f(x)dx ! s:=s+eq(i); finland ! . . vega ! a ! end please, not pascal! nooooo!! ;) * mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu * never program and drink beer at the same * * m^2 * time. it doesn't work. * 
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 +>>one way or another -- so much for patience. too bad you couldn't just +>>wait. was the prospect of god's message just too much to take? +>so you believe that david koresh really is jesus christ? they cut off the water, there were no fire trucks present and the fbi/atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions. the building burns, almost everyone dies. it probably doesn't bother you much, but it bothers many other people.....most of whom dont believe particularly in koresh or his message. four atf agents and 90 branch davidians are now dead because of crazy tactics on the part of the atf and fbi. attorney general vampira tells us that todays events were suppose to "save" those in the compound. blowing holes in a building and gassing those inside was supposed to "save" them? personally, i think it was mrs. o'leary's cow that knocked over that lantern... phaedrus - the cyberpyrate 
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 for several years all i knew is i really liked dropping 'cid (lsd). frankly speaking, i didn't really care. it was fun anyway. it didn't matter that every child my wife and i want to have are at a *tremendously* greater risk of serious birth defects. for several years all i knew is i really liked having sex with as many women as i could convice. frankly speaking, i didn't care. i didn't care that i was putting each one of them at risk (as well as their future partners). it seems you lived a fairly 'wild life'-- my background is far more traditional, mostly working, working, working. maybe there's a clear indication that the way you lived your life produced a certain amount of anxiety that needed to be released. religion was one possible medicine. while my more stable environment didn't and still does not produce the situation where i feel such guilt. this is just one possible explanation why you feel this burden, while i haven't felt it so far. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. matthew 5:6 (niv) 
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 ^^-- name? for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his other than it tells quite a lot about the man himself. i'm curious. are you referring to koresh as "the man"? why the upper case m? it's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people. are you the spokesman for "most people?" i never claimed to be a spokesman for "most people". it is an assumption on my part that people with normal values and morality would be more concerned with human life than sermon structure. you missed the point -- which is that the prophets, the psalms, and revelation, all together, provide a very rich view of a very special event -- a wedding. are burning children part of this very special event? my comment stems from the realization that we who love the lord, are human and imperfect. whatever we "preach," no matter how eloquent, or how corrupted -- is of little difference. those who know the master's voice will recognize him -- a gem-stone amidst rock. such is also the lesson of the "stumblingblock." for those who have an ear to hear. what about those who do not know the master's voice? does the master not care about them? eloquent, but corrupt, preaching may be of little difference to you. but i suspect it made a big difference to all of those who died in the compound. tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources thenrion@sbctri.sbc.com 
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 either way, i have evidence to support the theory that the bd's burned themselves. you made a serious implication that the fbi was responsible for the fire and the "destruction of the people". all you have done is put doubt on who started the fire without providing any evidence to back up your claim that the fbi was responsible. last night cnn reported that fbi has infrared pictures showing that the fires started in three places at the same time. that would indicate something not resembling an accident. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 |> yes, of course, as in matthew 10:34-35 "do not suppose that i have come to |> bring peace to the earth; it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword..." remember the armor of god? the sword that christians wield is the word of god, the bible. sorry malcolm, but i rather believe jesus than you. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 eternal damnation is the consequence of the choice one makes in rejecting god. if you choose to jump off a cliff, you can hardly blame god for you going *splat* at the bottom. he knows that if you choose to jump, that you will die but he will not prevent you from making that choice. in fact, he sent his son to stand on the edge of the cliff and tell everyone of what lies below. to prove that point, jesus took that plunge himself but he being god was able to rise up again. i have seen the example of christ and have chosen not to jump and i'm trying to tell you not to jump or else you'll go *splat*. you don't have to listen to me and i won't stop you if you decide to jump. i only ask that you check it out before taking the plunge. you owe it to yourself. i don't like seeing anyone go *splat*. i'm for the moment interested in this notion of the 'leap of faith' established by kierkegaard. it clearly points out a possible solution to transcendental values. what i don't understand is that it also clearly shows the existentialism system where any leap to any transcendental direction is equal. in other words i might not jump off the cliff mentioned above, but at the same time i will decide to what direction i will go. actually i will do it just now. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84442">
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 is there some relation between the name 'cybele' and the phenemenon of the 'sibyl'? your paragraph above seems to indicate there might be. the oed gives the etymology of "sibyl" as coming from the ancient greek sigma iota beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha ( s i b ih l l a ) which is claimed to come from the doric sigma iota omicron beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha ( s i o b ih l l a ) which (if i read it properly) in turn came from the attican (athenian) theta epsilon omicron beta omicron upsilon lambda eta ( th eh o b o ih l ae ) i don't know much about attis, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this god was tied to the athenian capital alpha tau tau iota kappa upsilon sigma (a t t i k u s) the oed does not list any etymology for "cybele" since that is a propper noun, but i suggest that the greek spelling of that word would be much closer to the anticedants of sibyl than the two words are now. perhaps "cybele" is a french or latin spelling? 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84443">
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 okay, i'll bite. i should probably leave this alone, but what the heck... rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms, and props used by the early nazis in their rallies and such. the name is roehm, not rhoemer. and hitler does claim that he came up with the swastika business. but didn't he credit the actual flag design to a party member - some dentist or other? i believe he gives such credit in mein kampf. he was killed in an early nazi purge. he and many of his associates were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies. i have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this common assertion recently. postings to such groups as soc.history and soc.culture.german has not uncovered any net.experts who could provide well, i'm no expert, but all of the histories of nazi germany assert this. they make reference to several scandals that occurred long before "the night of the long knives". the impression that i got was that homosexuality in portions of the sa was common knowledge. also, a book (by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment) called "homosexuals in history" asserts that roehm and heines were homosexuals, as well as others in roehm's sa circle. all the books say that roehm and his associate, edmund heines, were homosexual. i have been able to find nothing beyond that, and suspect this to be a sort of historical urban legend. well, you're the one who is in germany. if you don't believe the history books, look up the primary sources yourself. those of us outside of germany do not have access to these. you do. it seems to me that there were plenty of documented instances - several scandals, the fact that on the "knight of the long knives" several sa members (including heines) were found sleeping together, etc. also i believe some people were complaining about the sa's homosexual activities (seducing young boys, etc). the histories that i've read make a very convincing case. none of this sounds like urban legend to me. (irving, a notoriously unreliable historian, says that funk, the nazi finance minister, was homosexual. he gives no sources.) i know next to nothing about irving and nothing about funk. what precisely do you know, that would contradict all of the other history books that i have read concerning the existence of homosexual nazis? are you trying to say that all historians are taking part in an anti-homosexual smear? what about homosexual writers who agree with the official history? don't you think they would have found out the truth by now if roehm and heines were not homosexuals? i would think they would want to disassociate homosexuality from nazism. no one should use any connection between the two to bash homosexuals in any case. i challenge anyone to document this claim. if you are going to challenge *all* historians on this point (not just irving), then the burden of proof is on you. track down the references. find out where the stories originate from. again, you are the one in germany, close to archival material - most people on the net are not. i *have* found a great deal of evidence that there were many flaming heterosexuals among the nazis. this seems to include all of the worst ones--hitler, himmler, goebbels, goering, heydrich, eichmann, and many more. eh? what is your agenda here? to prove that the nazis were heterosexuals, so that you can bash heterosexuals? does it bother you that some of the nazis might have been homosexuals? does this make all homosexuals bad if this is true? of course not. and what about bisexuals? are they half-nazis? i don't know why it would be so difficult to believe that some nazis were homosexuals. the german officer corps before ww1, for instance, was notorious for its homosexuality. there were numerous scandals which rocked the german govt. during the late 19th and early 20th century. many of the kaiser's friends were prosecuted - the kaiser was no homosexual, but the germany army had a long tradition of tolerating homosexuality, going far back into prussian history - back to frederick the great at least, who was himself a homosexual. roehm was a product of this prussian officer tradition, and the old german army (like the english public school system), being a well known center of homosexuality, would have been quite willing to overlook roehm's homosexuality. in addition, some nazis complained of homosexuality in the hitler youth. the hitler youth swallowed up all pre-nazi youth groups, and some of the various pre-war vandervogel, bund, and volkish youth groups were known to promote homoerotic ideals and friendship, and in many cases, homosexuality itself. so it seems to me not unlikely that there were plenty of homosexual nazis, regardless of the official nazi dogmas concerning the "evils" of homosexuality. why should this suprise anyone? homosexuality has always existed, in all societies - it would be most unusual if the nazis were an exception. no, i don't have any sources for you, as i think the only kind of proof you will accept would be citations from archival material, and i do not have access to these. nor do i intend to reread every book on the nazis and on modern homosexuality that i have ever read - i don't have the time. nothing is stopping you, however, from chasing down those sources. until you prove otherwise, though, i will stick with the established histories. david matthew deane (deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu) "...be in me as the eternal moods of the bleak wind...let the gods speak softly of us in days hereafter..." (ezra pound) 
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 those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the god of peace shall be with you. philippians 4:9 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84446">
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 if jesus never taught the concept of the trinity, how do you deal with the following: mat 28 18 then jesus came to them and said, "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. mat 28 19 therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit, mat 28 20 and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you. and surely i am with you always, to the very end of the age." jim, please, that's a lame explanation of the trinity that jesus provides above. baptizing people in the name of three things != trinity. if this is the case, then i'm wrong, i assumed that trinity implies that god is three entities, and yet the same. sandvik@newton.apple.com. alink: ksand -- private activities on the net. 
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 brian ceccarelli presents us with the fallacy of false dichotomy in stating that we must accept every thing in the books attributed to peter, or we must discount every other book of antiquity: (1) peter died two millenia ago. the original letters he wrote have long since decayed into dust. if he were alive today and i could do you question the existence of alexander the great, tilgrath pilisar iii, nero, caligula, josephus, cyrus the great, artexerxes? their documents have decayed to dust too. brian, why another excuse? mr ceccarelli, you seem to be stating that we must accept accept everything written in every "historical" document. somehow i doubt do that yourself that. thus since i doubt you accept everything written in every historical document, i would ask how you can thereby objectively justify complete faith in the words of the books attributed to peter. i shall now give an example of a document from antiquity, which i am sure you reject; it dates from the time of ramses ii (this was first presented here by matthew wiener). these inscriptions were carved soon after a battle, and were carved with the pharoah's specific approval so we have true originals, rather than mere copies. this account records the the battle of kadesh (circa 1285 bc), which occurred on the river orontes, (about 100 miles south of aleppo). the egyptians won this battle with the hittites, and ramses had his victory inscribed all over the place. a few of of these inscriptions have survived in near perfect form. it is a record of how the pharoah pretty much single-handedly defeated the hittites, after being separated from his troops. note that the egyptian wavers back and forth between first and third person. the following is from miriam lichtheim`s _ancient egyptian literature_ volume my majesty caused the forces of the foes from hitti to fall on their faces, one upon the other, as crocodiles fall, into the water of the orontes. i was after them like a griffin; i attacked all the countries, i alone. for my infantry and my chariotry had deserted me; not one of them stood looking back. as i live, as ra loves me, as my father atum favors me, everything that my majesty has told i did it in truth, in the presence of my infantry and my chariotry. (note: this paragraph records not only ramses "divine word," but also that there were thousands of witnesses to the event. now from the heart of battle.) then his majesty drove at a gallop and charged the forces of the foe from hitti, being alone by himself, none other with him. his majesty proceeded to look about him and found 2500 chariots ringing him on his way out ... no officer was with me, no charioteer, no soldier of the army, no shield-bearer; my infantry, my chariotry yielded before them, not one of them stood firm to fight with them. his majesty spoke: "what is this, father amun? is it right for a father to ignore his son? are my deeds a matter for you to ignore? do i not walk and stand at your word? i have not neglected an order you gave. too great is he, the great lord of egypt, to allow aliens to step on his path! what are these asiatics to you, o amun, the wretches ignorant of god? have i not made for you many great monuments, i call to you, my father amun, i am among a host of strangers; all countries are arrayed against me, i am alone, there's none with me! the labors of many people are nothing, amun is more helpful than they; i came here by the command of your mouth, o amun, i have not transgressed your command!" now though i prayed in a distant land, my voice resounded in southern thebes. i found amun came when i called to him, he gave me his hand and i rejoiced. he called from behind as if near by: "forward, i am with you, i your father, my hand is with you, i prevail over a hundred thousand men, i am lord of victory, lover of valor!" i found my heart stout, my breast in joy, all i did succeeded, i was like mont. i slaughtered among them at my will, not one looked behind him, not one turned around, whoever fell down did not rise. one called out to the other saying: "no man is he who is among us, it is seth great-of-strength, baal in person; not deeds of man are these his doings, they are of one who is unique, who fights a hundred thousand without soldiers and chariots, come quick, flee before him, to seek life and breathe air; for he who attempts to get close to him, his hands, all his limbs grow limp. one cannot hold either bow or spears, when one sees him come racing along!" my majesty hunted them like a griffin, i slaughtered among them unceasingly. so you see brian, we have a few original manuscripts recording the miraculous battle between the ramses and the hittites. do you reject them as being *completely* true? i suspect you do, and if so, then do you also, in your own words: "question the existence of alexander the great, tilgrath pilisar iii, nero, caligula, josephus, cyrus the great, artexerxes?" do you also thereby question all their documents? that`s the problem with your "all or nothing" approach. many ancient people used to mix a bit of fancy with their facts. so for you to say that we must either accept all of peter (and the rest of the new testament) or accept no records of antiquity at all, forces you thereby, to accept the verity of documents you probably do not find completely credible. as to your other argument that so many people have testified to jesus, that he must be true: are you going to just pass off all this testimony as fictiousness? are you going to call three thousand years worth of testimony from shepherds to irs agents to royal officials to kings to computer programmers, fiction? with a scoff of your keyboard, with near complete ignorance of the testimonies, are you going to say that that is all complete hooey? would that not be the most audacious display of arrogance? do you actually think you know better than king solomon, king david, or even abraham lincoln? i have three points. first, this is "argumentum ad populum" (ie: appeal to popular opinion); you cannot vote on truth. for instance, do the millions of hindu's past and present who testify to the reality of brahma, constitute actual evidence for the existence of brahma? how would you answer your own question in regards to the testimony of hindus: "with a scoff of your keyboard, with near complete ignorance of the testimonies, are you going to say that that is all complete hooey?" if you do so "scoff," then how do you objectively justify your own special second, it is not at all clear that king solomon or king david testified to jesus. you can claim it to be clear, but that does not make it true. third, it is quite arguable that abraham lincoln was not christian, and that he had both a public and a private view of christianity. in fact there was much discussion about it in his day (yes, he was publically accused of being a deist. oh my). i am presently collecting a faq for lincoln as i've previously done for tyre, jefferson and etc. dave butler "my earlier views of the unsoundness of the christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and i see no reason for thinking i shall ever change them." abraham lincoln to judge j s wakefield after the death of willie lincoln. 
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 the following partial summary of a theory of the universe includes a little-known description of the creation of our solar system: larsonian astronomy and physics orthodox physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists claim to be looking for a "unified field theory" in which all of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single set of laws or equations. but they have been systematically ignoring or suppressing an excellent one for 30 years! the late physicist dewey b. larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, which he calls the "reciprocal system", is built on two fundamental postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of space and time: (1) "the physical universe is composed entirely of one component, motion, existing in three dimensions, in discrete units, and in two reciprocal forms, space and time." (2) "the physical universe conforms to the relations of ordinary commutative mathematics, its magnitudes are absolute, and its geometry is euclidean." from these two postulates, larson developed a complete theoretical universe, using various combinations of translational, vibrational, rotational, and vibrational- rotational motions, the concepts of in-ward and out-ward scalar motions, and speeds in relation to the speed of light (which larson called "unit velocity" and "the natural datum"). at each step in the development, larson was able to match objects in his theoretical universe with objects in the real physical universe, (photons, sub-atomic particles [incomplete atoms], charges, atoms, molecules, globular star clusters, galaxies, binary star systems, solar systems, white dwarf stars, pulsars, quasars, etc.), even objects not yet discovered then (such as exploding galaxies, and gamma-ray bursts). and applying his theory to his new model of the atom, larson was able to precisely and accurately calculate inter- atomic distances in crystals and molecules, compressibility and thermal expansion of solids, and other properties of all of this is described in good detail, with-out fancy complex mathematics, in his books. books of dewey b. larson the following is a complete list of the late physicist dewey b. larson's books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe. some of the early books are out of print now, but still available through inter-library loan. "the structure of the physical universe" (1959) "the case against the nuclear atom" (1963) "beyond newton" (1964) "new light on space and time" (1965) "quasars and pulsars" (1971) "nothing but motion" (1979) [a $9.50 substitute for the $8.3 billion "super collider".] [the last four chapters explain chemical bonding.] "the neglected facts of science" (1982) "the universe of motion" (1984) [final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries.] "basic properties of matter" (1988) all but the last of these books were published by north pacific publishers, p.o. box 13255, portland, or 97213, and should be available via inter-library loan if your local university or public library doesn't have each of them. several of them, including the last one, are available from: the international society of unified science (isus), 1680 e. atkin ave., salt lake city, utah 84106. this is the organization that was started to promote larson's theory. they have other related publications, including the quarterly journal "reciprocity". physicist dewey b. larson's background physicist dewey b. larson was a retired engineer (chemical or electrical). he was about 91 years old when he died in may 1989. he had a bachelor of science degree in engineering science from oregon state university. he developed his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe while trying to develop a way to compute chemical properties based only on the elements used. larson's lack of a fancy "ph.d." degree might be one reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him, but it is not a valid reason. sometimes it takes a relative outsider to clearly see the forest through the trees. at the same time, it is clear from his books that he also knew orthodox physics and astronomy as well as any physicist or astronomer, well enough to point out all their contradictions, ad hoc assumptions, principles of impotence, in-consistencies, etc.. larson did not have the funds, etc. to experimentally test his theory. and it was not necessary for him to do so. he simply compared the various parts of his theory with other researchers' experimental and observational data. and in many cases, his explanation fit better. a self-consistent theory is much more than the orthodox physicists and astronomers have! they claim to be looking for a "unified field theory" that works, but have been ignoring one for over 30 years now! "modern physics" does not explain the physical universe so well. some parts of some of larson's books are full of quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who agree. and remember that "epicycles", "crystal spheres", "geocentricity", "flat earth theory", etc., also once seemed to explain it well, but were later proved conceptually wrong. prof. frank h. meyer, professor emeritus of uw-superior, was/is a strong proponent of larson's theory, and was (or still is) president of larson's organization, "the international society of unified science", and editor of their quarterly journal "reciprocity". he moved to minneapolis after retiring. "super collider" boondoggle! i am against contruction of the "superconducting super collider", in texas or anywhere else. it would be a gross waste of money, and contribute almost nothing of "scientific" most physicists don't realize it, but, according to the comprehensive general unified theory of the late physicist dewey b. larson, as described in his books, the strange goofy particles ("mesons", "hyperons", alleged "quarks", etc.) which they are finding in existing colliders (fermi lab, cern, etc.) are really just atoms of anti-matter, which are created by the high-energy colliding beams, and which quickly disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible with their environment. a larger and more expensive collider will only create a few more elements of anti-matter that the physicists have not seen there before, and the physicists will be even more confused than they are now! are a few more types of anti-matter atoms worth the $8.3 billion cost?!! don't we have much more important uses for this wasted money?! another thing to consider is that the primary proposed location in texas has a serious and growing problem with some kind of "fire ants" eating the insulation off underground cables. how much poisoning of the ground and ground water with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of the "supercollider"?! naming the "super collider" after ronald reagon, as proposed, is totally absurd! if it is built, it should be named after a leading particle physicist. larsonian anti-matter in larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, anti-matter is not a simple case of opposite charges of the same types of particles. it has more to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the photons of which they are made, in relation to the vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light, which larson calls "unit velocity" and the "natural datum". in larson's theory, a positron is actually a particle of matter, not anti-matter. when a positron and electron meet, the rotational vibrations (charges) and rotations of their respective photons (of which they are made) neutralize each in larson's theory, the anti-matter half of the physical universe has three dimensions of time, and only one dimension of space, and exists in a reciprocal relationship to our material half. larsonian relativity the perihelion point in the orbit of the planet mercury has been observed and precisely measured to advance at the rate of 574 seconds of arc per century. 531 seconds of this advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational perturbations from the other planets (venus, earth, jupiter, etc.). the remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to help "prove" einstein's "general theory of relativity". but the late physicist dewey b. larson achieved results closer to the 43 seconds than "general relativity" can, by instead using "special relativity". in one or more of his books, he applied the lorentz transformation on the high orbital speed of mercury. larson totally rejected "general relativity" as another mathematical fantasy. he also rejected most of "special relativity", including the parts about "mass increases" near the speed of light, and the use of the lorentz transform on doppler shifts, (those quasars with red-shifts greater than 1.000 really are moving faster than the speed of light, although most of that motion is away from us in time.). in larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, there are three dimensions of time instead of only one. but two of those dimensions can not be measured from our material half of the physical universe. the one dimension that we can measure is the clock time. at low relative speeds, the values of the other two dimensions are negligible; but at high speeds, they become significant, and the lorentz transformation must be used as a fudge factor. [larson often used the term "coordinate time" when writing about this.] in regard to "mass increases", it has been proven in atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near the speed of light. but the formula for acceleration is acceleration = force / mass, (a = f/m). orthodox physicists are ignoring the third factor: force. in larson's theory, mass stays constant and force drops toward zero. force is actually a motion, or combinations of motions, or relations between motions, including inward and outward scalar motions. the expansion of the universe, for example, is an outward scalar motion inherent in the universe and not a result of the so-called "big bang" (which is yet another mathematical fantasy). the universe of motion i wish to recommend to everyone the book "the universe of motion", by dewey b. larson, 1984, north pacific publishers, (p.o. box 13255, portland, oregon 97213), 456 pages, indexed, hardcover. it contains the astrophysical portions of a general unified theory of the physical universe developed by that author, an unrecognized genius, more than thirty years ago. it contains final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries, including the formation of galaxies, binary and multiple star systems, and solar systems, the true origin of the "3-degree" background radiation, cosmic rays, and gamma- ray bursts, and the true nature of quasars, pulsars, white dwarfs, exploding galaxies, etc.. it contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are all looking for, if they are ready to seriously consider it with open minds! the following is an example of his theory's success: in his first book in 1959, "the structure of the physical universe", larson predicted the existence of exploding galaxies, several years before astronomers started finding them. they are a necessary consequence of larson's comprehensive theory. and when quasars were discovered, he had an immediate related explanation for them also. gamma-ray bursts astro-physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about the mysterious gamma-ray bursts. they were originally thought to originate from "neutron stars" in the disc of our galaxy. but the new gamma ray telescope now in earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions uniformly, and their source locations in space do not correspond to any known objects, (except for a few cases of directional coincidence). gamma-ray bursts are a necessary consequence of the general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson. according to page 386 of his book "the universe of motion", published in 1984, the gamma-ray bursts are coming from supernova explosions in the anti-matter half of the physical universe, which larson calls the "cosmic sector". because of the relationship between the anti-matter and material halves of the physical universe, and the way they are connected together, the gamma-ray bursts can pop into our material half anywhere in space, seemingly at random. (this is why the source locations of the bursts do not correspond with known objects, and come from all directions uniformly.) i wonder how close to us in space a source location would have to be for a gamma-ray burst to kill all or most life on earth! there would be no way to predict one, nor to stop it! perhaps some of the mass extinctions of the past, which are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids, were actually caused by nearby gamma-ray bursts! larsonian binary star formation about half of all the stars in the galaxy in the vicinity of the sun are binary or double. but orthodox astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory theory about how they form or why there are so many of them. but binary star systems are actually a likely consequence of the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson. i will try to summarize larsons explanation, which is detailed in chapter 7 of his book "the universe of motion" and in some of his other books. first of all, according to larson, stars do not generate energy by "fusion". a small fraction comes from slow gravitational collapse. the rest results from the complete annihilation of heavy elements (heavier than iron). each element has a destructive temperature limit. the heavier the element is, the lower is this limit. a star's internal temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays, gradually reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and lighter elements. when the internal temperature of the star reaches the destructive temperature limit of iron, there is a type i supernova explosion! this is because there is so much iron present; and that is related to the structure of iron atoms and the atom building process, which larson explains in some of his books [better than i can]. when the star explodes, the lighter material on the outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less than the speed of light. the heavier material in the center portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to the speed of light, because of the high temperature. the explosion pushes that material over the speed of light, and it expands outward in time, which is equivalent to inward in space, and it often actually disappears for a while. over long periods of time, both masses start to fall back gravitationally. the material that had been blown outward in space now starts to form a red giant star. the material that had been blown outward in time starts to form a white dwarf star. both stars then start moving back toward the "main sequence" from opposite directions on the h-r the chances of the two masses falling back into the exact same location in space, making a single lone star again, are near zero. they will instead form a binary system, orbiting each other. according to larson, a white dwarf star has an inverse density gradient (is densest at its surface), because the material at its center is most widely dispersed (blown outward) in time. this eliminates the need to resort to mathematical fantasies about "degenerate matter", "neutron stars", "black holes", etc.. larsonian solar system formation if the mass of the heavy material at the center of the exploding star is relatively small, then, instead of a single white dwarf star, there will be several "mini" white dwarf stars (revolving around the red giant star, but probably still too far away in three-dimensional time to be affected by its heat, etc.). these will become planets! in chapter 7 of the universe of motion, larson used all this information, and other principles of his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, to derive his own version of bode's law. "black hole" fantasy! i heard that physicist stephen w. hawking recently completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of two "black holes" merging together into a single "black hole", and concluded that the new "black hole" would have more mass than the sum of the two original "black holes". such a result should be recognized by everyone as a red flag, causing widespread doubt about the whole idea of "black holes", etc.! after reading physicist dewey b. larson's books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe, especially his book "the universe of motion", it is clear to me that "black holes" are nothing more than mathematical fantasies! the strange object at cygnus x-1 is just an unusually massive white dwarf star, not the "black hole" that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want to "prove" their theory. by the way, i do not understand why so much publicity is being given to physicist stephen hawking. the physicists and astronomers seem to be acting as if hawking's severe physical problem somehow makes him "wiser". it does not! i wish the same attention had been given to physicist dewey b. larson while he was still alive. widespread publicity and attention should now be given to larson's theory, books, and organization (the international society of unified science). electro-magnetic propulsion i heard of that concept many years ago, in connection with ufo's and unorthodox inventors, but i never was able to find out how or why they work, or how they are constructed. i found a possible clue about why they might work on pages 112-113 of the book "basic properties of matter", by the late physicist dewey b. larson, which describes part of larson's comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe. i quote one paragraph: "as indicated in the preceding chapter, the development of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally different concept of the nature of electrical resistance. the electrons, we find, are derived from the environment. it was brought out in volume i [larson's book "nothing but motion"] that there are physical processes in operation which produce electrons in substantial quantities, and that, although the motions that constitute these electrons are, in many cases, absorbed by atomic structures, the opportunities for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are limited. it follows that there is always a large excess of free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the universe, most of which are uncharged. in this uncharged state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension space, because they are inherently rotating units of space, and the relation of space to space is not motion. in open space, therefore, each uncharged electron remains permanently in the same location with respect to the natural reference system, in the manner of a photon. in the context of the stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron, like the photon, is carried outward at the speed of light by the progression of the natural reference system. all material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation. meanwhile there are other processes, to be discussed later, whereby electrons are returned to the environment. the electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level." note that in larson's theory, uncharged electrons are also massless, and are basically photons of light of a particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) spinning around one axis at a particular rate (below the "unit" rate). ("unit velocity" is the speed of light, and there are vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light, according to larson's theory.) [i might have the "above" and "below" labels mixed up.] larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass- less un-charged electrons flying around at the speed of light! if this is true, then the electro-magnetic propulsion fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these electrons, or other particles in space, perhaps giving them a charge (and mass) and shooting them toward the rear to achieve propulsion. (in larson's theory, an electrical charge is a one-dimensional rotational vibration of a particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) superimposed on the rotation of the particle.) the paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is generated in clouds. suppression of larsonian physics the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b. larson has been available for more than 30 years, published in 1959 in his first book "the structure of the physical universe". it is totally un-scientific for hawking, wheeler, sagan, and the other sacred priests of the religion they call "science" (or "physics", or "astronomy", etc.), as well as the "scientific" literature and the "education" systems, to totally ignore larson's theory has they have. larson's theory has excellent explanations for many things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers, such as gamma-ray bursts and the nature of quasars. larson's theory deserves to be honestly and openly discussed in the physics, chemistry, and astronomy journals, in the u.s. and elsewhere. and at least the basic principles of larson's theory should be included in all related courses at uw-ec, uw-madison, cambridge, cornell university, and elsewhere, so that students are not kept in the dark about a worthy alternative to the dogma they are being fed. for more information, answers to your questions, etc., please consult my cited sources (especially larson's books). un-altered reproduction and dissemination of this important partial summary is encouraged. robert e. mcelwaine b.s., physics and astronomy, uw-ec 
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 can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon. please email the internet address if possible. i have a copy. why are you interested? | lance w. bledsoe lwb@im4u.cs.utexas.edu (512) 258-0112 | | "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." | 
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 jeremiah: 25:27 therefore thou shalt say unto them, thus saith the lord of hosts, the god of israel; drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which i will send among 25:28 and it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, thus saith the lord of hosts; ye shall certainly drink. 
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 capser, before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter-day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion, perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine, at the command of brigham young? i recently watched a an episode of "the old west" a tv show on the discovery channel (or perhaps the a&e network), the one hosted by kenny rogers. this episode was all about the mormons and how they settled utah, a large portion of the broadcast was about the "mountain meadows massacre". the program very specifically pointed out that brigham young knew nothing about the incident until long after it had happened (before telegraph), and it occured as a result of several men inciting a bunch of paronoid moromn settlers into what amounted to a mob. all participants in the incident were prosecuted and eccomunicated from the lds church. i suggest you watch a rerun of that episode (they play them over and over) and see what they (non-mormons) have to say about it. | lance w. bledsoe lwb@im4u.cs.utexas.edu (512) 258-0112 | | "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." | 
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 these particular tibetans are advocating increased violence against the chinese occupiers. are they wrong? wrong about what? i think they are correct in thinking that a well-placed bomb or six would get headlines, but i think they are wrong if they think that you can set off bombs and still be a maybe what we are seeing here is that chinese cultural genocide against the tibetans has worked well enough that some tibetans are now no longer buddhist and are instead willing to behave like the chinese occupiers. every action is its own reward. clearly the occupation of tibet _has_ been largely ignored. on the other hand, people who are aware of the occupation are mostly full of admiration for the peaceful way that tibetans have put up with it. and what does it cost us to admire them? zip. are tibetans currently "people of peace"? do they serve themselves well or badly by being so? yes they are, and whether this serves them well or not depends on whether they want buddhist principles or political independence. and without political independence can they preserve their cultural and religious traditions? would an increased level of violence make them "terrorists"? the chinese would certainly refer to them as terrorists, just as the hitler regime used to refer to european resistance movements as terrorists. assuming that the group advocating this course is correct, and greater attention is focussed on the occupation of tibet by the chinese, are the tibetans better off as "people of peace" or as "terrorists"? better off in what way? as proponents of pacifism or as proponents of political autonomy? and better off in what time-scale? the soviet empire practised cultural genocide against something like a hundred small minorities, some of which resisted violently, and some of which did not, but in the end it was the soviet empire that collapsed and at least some of the minorities survived. now some of the minorities are fighting one another. is that because they have to, or because violent resistance to an oppressive empire legitimized violence? 
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 for those who think david koresh didn't have a solid structure, or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast, i don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon. it's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people. and i think we ought to hold christ accoountable for all of his followers who died at the hand of the romans also. it was their own fault for believing. god, this society reminds me more of the roman empire every day; i guess i'll just log off and go watch american gladiators. cutter@gloster.via.mind.org (chris) all jobs are easy to the person who doesn't have to do them. holt's law 
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 a baby's innocence has nothing to do with whether the baby is a sinner. innocence and the sin nature are two different attributes. the baby is innocent, yet the baby is a sinner. you have two arms and two legs? why? because your parents did. why? because their parents did. etc. did you do anything to get them? the thing is, i know what arms and legs are. it's therefore generally easy to tell whether or not someone has arms and legs. this "sinful nature", since it does not require that the baby actually perform any sins, seems to be totally invisible. as far as i know, maybe half the babies have a sinful nature and half don't--it'd look exactly the same, since there is no way to tell the we are born sinners. we are born sinners because our parents were born with it. we got it from them. we did nothing to earn the title "sinner". we get it because our parents had it, their parents had it, their grandparents had it, etc, infinitum. so what's so bad about a sinful nature, then? i could understand it being bad if it always results in people committing sins, but babies can have it, never commit sins, die, and they still have it. so the bad part about can't merely be that it results in people committing sins--so what _is_ bad about it? "on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me... leftover turkey! on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me... turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey. [days 3-4 deleted] ... flaming turkey wings! ... -- pizza hut commercial (and m*tlu/a*gic bait) ken arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu) 
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 i wasn't sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to, but i guess the misc is there for a reason. here goes... i am getting married in june to a devout (wisconsin synod) lutheran. i would classify myself as a strong agnostic/weak athiest. this has been a a subject of many discussions between us and is really our only real obstacle. we don't have any real difficulties with the religious differences yet, but i expect they will pop up when we have children. i have agreed to raise the children "nominally" lutheran. that is, lutheran traditions, but trying to keep an open mind. i am not sure if this is even possible though. i feel that that the worst quality of being devoutly religous is the lack of an open mind. anyway, i guess i'll get on with my question. is anyone in the same situation and can give some suggestions as to how to deal with this? we've taken the attitude so far of just talking about it a lot and not letting anything get bottled up inside. sometimes i get the feeling we're making this much bigger than it actually is. any comments would be greatly appreciated. also, please e-mail responses since i don't get a chance to read this group often. :-( 
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 i'm curious to know if christians ever read books based on critique on the religion, classical text such as "age of reason" by paine, or "the myth maker" by jacobi. sometimes it is good to know your enemy, and if you want to do serious research you have to understand both sides, and not solely the one and only right one. yes, one does. i examined a critique of the book of romans by i think, benjamin franklin once, a deist. i found it amazing that benjamin franklin missed the whole boat. i also have the writings on thomas jefferson sitting on my shelf, and it is amazing how much he missed. i have studied plato's theory of forms and aristotelian hylomorphesism. what a pile of junk. jesus makes plato and aristotle look like kindergardeners. psychology, the id, ego, superego by freud? elements of truth, but jesus explained it far better and gave reasons. thomas paine, benjamin franklin, thomas jefferson are mere men. they can screw up the bible just as well as any man. i do not put these men on a pedestal. and if i remember t.j.'s autobiography correctly, he thought thomas paine was the most unread man he ever met. here's some more circular reasoning to you. paul says to the corinthians that "that the gospel will be foolishness to the world, because it is spiritually discerned." and so, people without the spirit of god haven't a clue to what the bible is saying. from your point of view, that's incredibly circular and convenient. to me, it is mysteriously and supernaturally bizarre. i can see it, but you can't. this is not arrogance on my part. trust me. it is as bizarre to you as it is to me. but nonetheless, it is a truth, explainable or not. are any of you color blind to red and green? i am. remember those dot tests they do at the optomologist's? they put pictures in front of you and you are supposed to identify the pattern in the dots? if your eyes are perfectly normal, you can see letters or numerals embedded in the dots. they are a slightly different color and stand out from the background. but if you are color blind to red and green, you will not see anything but gray-shaded dots. that is how a dot test appears to me. i do not see a pattern at all. a normal seeing person will see the patterns. and to him, i seem like a total anomaly. to him, i appear as if i am missing the universe or something. it is hard for him to understand why i can't see anything that to him is as plain as day. that it what it is like with the bible, the word of god, to the believer. the believer can see the meaning in the words. i can see how the patterns fit together. there is such depth. such consistency. but then, on the other hand, i notice the non-believer. he doesn't see it. he thinks i am weird because he thinks i am seeing things. i look at him, and say, "no, you are weird. you do not see." then it is time for a sanity check. i go to another christian and say, "do you see this." and they go, "yes. it is an "x"". and i say, "thank god, i see the "x" too." it is truly the strangest thing. it adds a little extra dimension to the phrase, "he will make the blind see, and the deaf hear." i am glad that jesus has enabled me to see. i wish every non-believer could see what they are missing. 
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 if you check the news today, (ap) the "authorities also found a state-of-the-art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult's arsenal." [carl stern, justice department] yeah. in a fire that reportedly burned hotter than 1000 degrees-- hot enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable-- the authorities found a gun that was recognizably fully-automatic and state of the art. isn't that conveeeenient? assuming the most favorable interpretation of your '1000 degree' measurement (that the temperature is in centigrade, rather than the more common -in the us- fahrenheit), you are still laboring under at least 2 misconceptions: 1. you seem to believe that steel melts somewhere around 1000 c. actually, the melting point of most iron alloys (and steels are iron alloys) is in the neighborhood of 1400 c. even if the gun were found in area which achieved the 1000 c temperature, the steel parts of the gun would not be deformed, and it would still be trivial to identify the nature of the weapon. steel may not melt at 1000c, but it will weaken, expand and deform. if there is enough of a load on the steel, like the load on a steel roof truss, or the pressure exerted by steel parts in a machine trying to expand against each other, the steel can and will deform extensively. for the record, any weapon found in the cult compound should be indentifiable, but it may be impossible to do normal ballistics tests because of the damage done to the weapon. if, if, if.... anyway, the question was if the gun was identifiable, which it is. mitchell s todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________ | timothy j. brent | a man will come to know true happiness, | | brent@bank.ecn.purdue.edu | only when he accepts that he is but a | |=========$$$$==================| small part of an infinite universe. | | purdue university | -spinoza | | materials science engineering | [paraphrased] | |_______________________________|_________________________________________| 
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 for your information, i checked the library of congress catalog, and they list the following books by francis hitching: ahha...now with the branch athiests zealots we have the following: i think you are mistaken in thinking tom scharle to be a atheist. you will find both atheists and christians among your opponents on t.o. calling your opponents them "branch athiests zealots" does nothing for your credibility. let me try again. oh yes, do. "the doubt that has infiltrated the previous, smugly confident certitude of evolutionary biology has inflamed passions. there is lack of agreement even within warring camps. sometimes it seems as if there are as many variations on each evolutionary theme as there are individual biologists." niles eldridge (yes he's a paleontologist); natural history; "evolutionary housecleaning"; feb 1982; pg. 78. dear me. this is taken _so_ out of context that it's hard to know where to start... the quote starts with material from p 78, and ends with material from page 81! on page 78, there's the bit that says (the parts left out in john king's "quote" are marked by <>): "<...> the doubt that has infiltrated the previous, smugly confident certitude of evolutionary biology<'s last twenty years> has inflamed passions <and provoked some very interesting thought and research>." eldridge goes on immediately following the butchered quote: "in short, evolutionary biology has entered a phase of creativity that is the hallmark of good, active science." the material that is on page 81 that is "quoted" by john king has been butchered even more severely: "<i mention this only to illustrate the> **there is**[these words not in the original text-prl] lack of agreement even within warring camps <: things are really in uproar these days, and each of the "basic" ways of looking at evolutionary biology has its minor variants.> sometimes it seems as if there are as many variations on each evolutionary theme as there are individual biologists." eldridge goes on: "but that's the way it should be; this is how science is supposed to operate." and just a few sentences down: "when they [creationists] misrepresent the exuberant, creative doubt and controversy permeating evolutionary biology these days, they are actively promoting scientific illiteracy." and that, john e. king, is precisely what you have done with eldridge's article. are you personally responsible for the butchery of the text or have you pulled it out of some creationist propaganda? you owe the people reading t.o an apology for posting such misrepresentation. peter lamb (prl@csis.dit.csiro.au) 
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 i am pleased to announce that a *revised version* of _the easy-to-read book of mormon_ (former title: _mormon's book_) by lynn matthews anderson is now available through anonymous ftp (see information below). in addition to the change in title, the revised etr bom has been shortened by several pages (eliminating many extraneous "that's" and "of's"), and many (minor) errors have been corrected. this release includes a simplified joseph smith story, testimonies of the three and eight witnesses, and a "words-to-know" as with the previous announcement, readers are reminded that this is a not-for-profit endeavor. this is a copyrighted work, but people are welcome to make *verbatim* copies for personal use. people can recuperate the actual costs of printing (paper, copy center charges), but may not charge anything for their time in making copies, or in any way realize a profit from the use of this book. see the permissions notice in the book itself for the precise terms. negotiations are currently underway with a mormon publisher vis-a-vis the printing and distribution of bound books. (sorry, i'm out of the wire-bound "first editions.") i will make another announcement about the availability of printed copies once everything has been worked out. ftp information: connect via anonymous ftp to carnot.itc.cmu.edu, then "cd pub" (you won't see anything at all until you do). "the easy-to-read book of mormon" is currently available in postscript and rtf (rich text format). (ascii, latex, and other versions can be made available; contact dba@andrew.cmu.edu for details.) you should be able to print the postscript file on any postscript printer (such as an apple laserwriter); let dba know if you have any difficulties. (the postscript in the last release had problems on some printers; this time it should work better.) rtf is a standard document interchange format that can be read in by a number of word processors, including microsoft word for both the macintosh and windows. if you don't have a postscript printer, you may be able to use the rtf file to print out a copy of the book. -r--r--r-- 1 dba 1984742 apr 27 13:12 etrbom.ps -r--r--r-- 1 dba 1209071 apr 27 13:13 etrbom.rtf for more information about how this project came about, please refer to my article in the current issue of _sunstone_, entitled "delighting in plainness: issues surrounding a simple modern english book of mormon." send all inquiries and comments to: lynn matthews anderson 5806 hampton street pittsburgh, pa 15206 dba+lynn@cs.cmu.edu 
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 ra> robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "kermit" thread). on what ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?" "orthodox" is a compound word. it comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). i use orthodox to refer to 'right teaching.' as opposed to universal or catholic or "foursquare gosple". i think that the greek orthodox church would take high offense at your misuse of the word. your version of christianity is neither mainstream nor bible derived you make claims of bible-centricity that are not derivable soley from the bible. about six-seven months ago, you claimed that your primary objection to the lds was that "our" doctrine was not bible-derived, and now this (and other) claims can be shown, are also not bible interpeting bible. right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible. this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible. simple truths... oh for example? ra> who is that "holds that" luke meant what you said he meant? i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are luke 23:43 records christ's promise to the repentant thief who hung on an adjacent cross: "truly i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." but was it not until later that christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven? if christ himself was not in heaven until sunday, how could the repentant thief have been there with him? the answer lies in the location of "paradise" when jesus died. apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until easter day. "paradise exalted to heaven" paradise wasn't equal to heaven and _now_ it is? yet you claim that peeple can not be exalted to heaven, nicht wahr? jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and lazarus as "abraham's bosom," to which the godly beggar lazarus was carried by the angels after his decease (luke 16:19-31). thus "abraham's bosom" referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed waited till the day of christ's resurrection. when i read the story, i found that "abraham's bosom" wasn't so much a place, but somewhere the rich man could see and talk to abraham? it was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of hades (hebrew: sheol), reserved for believers who had died in the faith but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of god in heaven until the price of redemption had actually been paid on calvary; or even that none would precede the presence of jesus back to glory with the father. gee this is fairly close to what the lds call spirit prison, and what you have called false doctrine... doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of jesus and the repentant thief repaired after they each died on friday afternoon. but on sunday, after the risen christ had first appeared to mary magdalene (john 20:17) and her two companions (matthew 28:9), presumably he then took up with him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise (including abraham, lazarus, and the repentant thief). we read in ephesians 4:8 concerning christ: "ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts unto men." [ vers deleted reproduced below quoted from the sunspot gopher archive ] presumably he led the whole band of liberated captives from hades (i.e., the whole population of preresurrection paradise) up to the glory of heaven. this part is _not_ supported from scripture, nor does it support your claim that the "paradise" where christ descended was exalted. making such claims on this little "evidence" ignores the witness of the ||sun||ephas: ||sun|| 4:8 wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity ||sun|| captive, and gave gifts unto men. ||sun|| ||sun|| (x-ref psalms 68:18) ||sun|| thou has ascended on hight, thout hast led captivity captive; thou has ||sun|| recieved gifts for men; yea for the rebellious aslo, that the lord god ||sun|| might dwell amoung them ||sun|| ||sun||ephas: ||sun|| 4:9 (now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first ||sun|| into the lower parts of the earth? 4:10 he that descended is the same ||sun|| also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all ||sun|| things.) 4:11 and he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and ||sun|| some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 4:12 for the ||sun|| perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the ||sun|| edifying of the body of christ: 4:13 till we all come in the unity of ||sun|| the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of god, unto a perfect man, ||sun|| unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ: 4:14 that we ||sun|| henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about ||sun|| with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning ||sun|| craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 4:15 but speaking the ||sun|| truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, using this to argue that paradise or spirit prison, is now changed from a pre-easter postion to post-easter by god postion is not supportable. makeing such a claim requires more evidence than you have given here... ra> whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra> "look at the bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who ra> see biblical things differently from you? i think that this characterization is faulty. whenever my 'personal interpretation' is questioned, i usually give a reason. yes, and your reasons are in general not supported by any direct reading of the scriptures. you have demonstrated that you claims to scriptural "proof" need to be cross-checked. the referencs that you supply often do not support your postion, if they are read in the context of the scripture. as for those that see things differently, please, put forward where there is a valid difference, and we can discuss it. i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff that i glean from it. put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic. but to decry something that i put forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious. how about that those who have been in paradise, and have accepted the gosple will be judged of jesus christ, and then return to the presence of god. is that somehow different from your expressed view that the paradise spoken of (or "abraham's bosom") ra> are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra> understands it? if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong, then please, show me from scripture where it is wrong. simply stating that there are other views is not a proof. show it to me from scripture and then we can go on. should we go back and discuss your view on why the angle of the lord is the lord again... ;-) robert weiss psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu kermit tensmeyer | intergraph corporation kltensme@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com | deep in dixie 
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 : >but if entertainment (company) sell computer programs saying they are virus : >safe. doesn`t they have burden of proof that viruses don`t exist in their : >floppies ? : i don't think so. the assumption is there. if it turns out that : their software has a virus, then it is up to you to prove that fact : to a court to get any damages. you are theoretically suppossed to : be able to get damages for that, but you have to give some evidence : that the virus came from that software. but since the computer : company is the defendent, they are uninvolved until proven guilty. all right. i'm not and won't be lawyer. what about doctors? i going to fly aeroplane (or drive car). doctors have to look for different kind of illnesses in me before i get permission to fly an aeroplane. they have burden of proof that "harmful illnesses don't exist in me", do they ? (i'm just questioning my belief that believers have the burden of proof.) : please, not pascal! nooooo!! ;) oh! are you those bug-generator c-programmers ? :-) turbo pascal is the best and fastest for edit-run-edit-run cycles ! ----------------------- ktikkane@phoenix.oulu.fi ------------------- kari tikkanen ! . . -#- ! b ! begin 
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 bd's were not contemplating suecide, and there is no reason to believe they committed one. no reason? how about these two: 1. some of the survivors claimed that bd members poured fuel along the corridors and set fire to it. the speed at which the fire spread is not inconsistent with this claim. this morning on cnn (tues april 27), texas cops say arson is suspected because of two falsh points. cnn also stated that _all_ surviors claim the fires are fbi set. your argument are made-up, untrue and unverified at best. 2. there was certainly a fire which killed most of the people in the compound. there is a very very good possibility that the fbi did not start this fire. this is a good reason to believe that the bd's did. the day of the attack the fbi claimed to have seen two bd'ers setting the fire outside of the compound. yesterday, the arson squad said two flash points at the or near the tank entry points not good evidence for the fbi hit squad. 3. even if the bd's were not contemplating suicide, it is very possible that david koresh was convinced (and thus convinced the others) that this was not suicide. it was the fulfilment of a profecy of some sort. is there a difference between thinking that you won't survive a confrontation with the fbi (parnoia?) and committing suicide? there are three possibilities other than the bd's self destruction: b. the fire was started by an fbi accident. this is possible, but it would be foolish of us to declare this outright until more evidence can back it. sure, it's possible that the armored vehicle knocked down a lantern which started the fire (why was there a lit lantern in the middle of the day near the edge of the complex?). it's anecdotal evidence that has been contradicted by other escapees. no, claimed by the escapees not contradicted what i'm finding interesting is the conflicting reports. fbi says that bodies have been found with bullet wounds and the texas cornuers (sp) says that they haven't yet found any bullet holes.. *isaac kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___ kermit tensmeyer | intergraph corporation kltensme@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com | deep in dixie 
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 #i find myself unable to put these two statements together in a #sensible way: #>abortion is done because the mother can not afford the *pregnancy*. #>if we refused to pay for the more expensive choice of birth, *then* #>your statement would make sense. but that is not the case, so it doesn't. #are we paying for the birth or not, mr. parker? if so, why can't the #mother afford the pregnancy? if not, what is the meaning of the #latter objection? you can't have it both ways. birth != pregnancy. if they were the same, the topic of abortion would hardly arise, would it, mr. skinner? frank o'dwyer 'i'm not hatching that' odwyer@sse.ie from "hens", by evelyn conlon 
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 |>[earlier dialogue deleted] |>>|> perhaps you should read it and stop advancing the bible as evidence relating |>>|> to questions of science. |>[it = _did jesus exist?_ by g. a. wells] |>> there is a great fallacy in your statement. the question of origins is |>> based on more than science alone. |>nope, no fallacy. yep, science is best in determining how; religions handle |>why and who. rich, i am curious as to why you and others award custody of the baby to theists and religion? i hope i didn't award custody, rich. i purposely used "handle" in order to avoid doing so - i.e., that happens to be what religions do (of course there are aberrations like "scientific" creationism). i used "best" in part to indicate that science currently has a time of it with why and who, so these domains are mostly ignored. i also attempted to be brief, which no doubt confused the matter. as an aside, for science i should have written "how and when". nobody seems to argue over what. are they [theists, theologians] any better equiped to investigate the "who and why" than magicians, astrologers, housewives [not being sexists], athiests or seems to me that the answer would vary from individual to individual. i'm not trying to be evasive on this, but from a societal perspective, religion works. on the other hand, sometimes it is abused and misused, and many suffer, which you know. but the net result seems positive, this from the anthropological perspective on human affairs. you might call me a neo-fruedian insofar as i think the masses can't get along without religion. not that generally they are incapable; they just don't, and for myriad reasons, but the main one seems to be the promise of immortality. very seductive, that immortality. therefore it seems that theologians are better equipped than the others you mention for dispensing answers to "who and why". i suggest that this holds regardless of the "truth" in their answers to who and why simply because people believe. in the end, spiritual beliefs are just as "real" as scientific facts and explanation (caution to some: do not take this out of context). do you suggest that the "who and why" will forever be closed to scientific no. in fact, i don't think it is closed now, at least for some individuals. isn't there a group of theoretical physicists who argue that matter was created from nothing in a big bang singularity? this approach might presuppose an absence of who and why, except that it seems it could be argued that something had to be responsible for nothing? maybe that something doesn't have to be supernatural, maybe just mechanistic. but that's a tough one for people today to grasp. in any case, theory without empirical data is not explanation, but then your question does not require data. in other words, i agree that theorizing (within scientific parameters) is just as scientific as explaining. so the answer is, who and why are not closed to scientists, but i sense that science in these realms is currently very inadequate. data will be necessary for improvement, and that seems a long way off, if ever. pretty convoluted here; i hope i've made sense. it seems to me that 200 or so years ago, the question of the origin of life on earth was not considered open to scientific enquiry. i agree generally. but i prefer to put it this way - the *questions* of how, when, who and why were not open to inquiry. during the enlightenment, reason was reponsible for questioning the theological answers to how and when, and not, for the most part, who and why. science was thus born out of the naturalists' curiosity, eventually carting away the how and when while largely leaving behind the who and why. the ignorant, the selfish, the intolerant, and the arrogant, of course, still claim authority in all four domains. |>rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota did like your discussion around amhs, and i did figure out what amh was from your original post :-) much obliged. funny how facts tend to muddle things, isn't it? well, i am sure there are plenty of "scientific" creationist "rebuttals" out there somewhere, even if they have to be created from nothing. [just for the record, again, amh = anatomically modern humans] best regards :-), rich fox, anthro, usouthdakota 
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 on 26-apr-93 in re: what part of "no" don't.. because, of course, that possibility existed. meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his/her own, which makes more sense than forcing those who don't want to participate to have to take part. what other reason is there for an organized "moment of silence"? a "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone* participates. otherwise it's not silent, now is it? the whole point is, maybe everyone _doesn't want_ to participate. blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic. blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from becoming the official u.s. religion. not noticing that danger is utterly idiotic. please provide evidence that having a moment of silence for a student who died tragically costs taxpayers money. 
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 in the king james version of the bible there are three differents words translated into the word "hell". these greek words have totally different meanings. the words are hades, tartaros, and gehenna. in bibical usage, the greek word hades is used only 11 times in the new testament, and is roughly the equivalent to the old testament word sheol... meaning the grave or pit (compare acts 2:27 with psalms 16:10). hades may be likened to a hole in the ground. (in the bible it has nothing to do with fire!) most modern bibical translators admit that the use in the english word hell to translate hades and sheol are an unfortunate and misleading practice. why? because when seeing the word "hell" many readers impute to it the traditional connotation of an ever-burning inferno, when this was never remotely intended in the greek language or in old english! in its true bibical usage hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of the dead, but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of "shadowy realm." hades is simply the abode we call the grave. all dead go to this hell. the second "hell" of the bible, tartaros, is mentioned only once in scripture, 2 pet.2:4; "for if god spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment..." following their rebellion to unseat god from his throne (isa.14:12-14; rev.12:4), the archangel lucifer (now satan) and a third of the created angels (now demons) were ejected from heaven (luke 10:18). they were cast down to tartaros, a place or condition of restraint that god has imposed on the mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment (jude 6; 1 cor.6:3). tartaros, then, is a "hell" that applies only to evil, rebellious angels or demons (it is interesting that the ancient greeks used this word to describe the place in which zeus confined the rebellious titans). nowhere in the bible is there any mention of men being put into this particular "hell". the the third word that is translated as "hell" in the bible is gehenna. it comes from the hebrew gai hinnom, meaning "valley of hinniom." hinnom is a deep, narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of jerusalem. in old testament times it was a place of abominable pagan rites, including infant sacrifice (it was there that the apostate kings ahaz and manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" to the god molech. the rites were specifically celebrated in tophet, the "place of abhorrence," one of the chief groves in the valley). king josiah of ancient judah finally put an end to these abominations. he defiled the valley, rendering it ceremonially unclean (2 kings 23:10). later the valley became the cesspool and city dump of jerusalem; a repository for sewage, refuse and animal carcasses. the bodies of dispised criminals were also burned there along with the rubbish. fires burned continuously, feeding by a constant supply of garbage and refuse. aceldama, the "field of blood", purchased with the money judas received for the betrayal of christ (matt.27:8) was also in part of the valley of hinnom. so what does this valley called gehenna have to do with hell? in rev.19:20: the satan inspired political dictator and a miracle-working religious figure, the false prophet, working with him will resist the re-establishment of the government of god by jesus christ at his second coming. their fate is revealed by the apostle john: "and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet... these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." where will this temporary lake of fire (this "hell") be? the prophet isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the beast: "for tophet (in the valley of hinnom) is ordained of old, yea for the king it is prepared, he hath made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and wood, the breath of the lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (isa.30:33). one thousand years later, satan himself will be cast into this rekindled fiery lake where the beast and false prophet were cast! (rev.20:10). but what of the wicked who have died over the millennia? does the bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of in the sequence of rev.20 the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after satan is cast there! (rev.20:15). what will become of these wicked? will they writhe in flames for eternity? the wicked will be burned up from the intense heat of the coming gehenna fire on the earth. they wil be consumed, annihilated, destroyed! this punishment will be everlasting (permanent and final). the bible calls it the "second death" (rev.20:14; 21:8), from which there is no possibility of a further resurrection. the bible does teach eternal punishment, but not eternal punishing. the prophet malachi provides a graphic description. "for, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up..." (4:1). to the righteous, god says that the wicked shall be "ashes under the soles of your feet..."(mal.4:3). gehenna was a place of destruction and death, not a place of living torture! jesus was talking to jews who understood all about this gehenna or valley of hinnom. utter destruction by fire was complete. nothing was left, but ashes! every text in the bible translated from this greek word gehenna means complete destruction, not living torture (not eternal life in torment)! the bible says, in romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is death", not eternal life in torture. the punishment revealed in the bible is death... the cessation of eternal life is the gift of god! 
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 ... bad thoughts these. well it depends on whether you take the literal dictionary definition of cult and say all faiths are cults, or if you take a more social-context view of "cult which allows you to recognize mainstream religions as socially-acceptable and cults as groups that involve techniques of brain- washing and all the other characteristics that define oppressive [probly not the *best* word] cult behaviour. yeah, but implicitly the social-context view provides a justification for the dictionary definition of a cult; those who follow the mainstream pretend while those in cults act based on the very same impulses. now who is to be taken seriously ? ;-). i'm confused. could you restate what yer saying in "those who follow the mainstream pretend" and "act based on the very same impulses"? 
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 recently, i've asked myself a rather interesting question: what right does god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ?? in his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live according to his rules, we will burn in hell. well, with what right can god make that desicion? let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates every one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). what then happens, is that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. well, i didn't ask to be i guess i ought not conclude from this, then, that since you didn't ask to be created, you don't care if you go to hell. :) let's make an analogue. if a scientist creates a unique living creature (which has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...? who is god to impose its rules on us ? who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe? are all christians a flock of sheep, unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? i don't consider myself an unthinking sheep. the bible says god created us to be in communion and obedience to him. the first and only rule was to not eat of a certain tree, or else the punishment is distance from him and physical death. god's intention in creating us is to have a relationship with us. the bible documents god's attempts to have that relationship culminating in the person of jesus to bear the consequences of all sin so that all who accept him can have a relationship with god again: the purpose of creation. who is god to impose rules on us? he's god and he created us. i suppose he has a right based on who he is. above you mention "in his infinite wisdom", and that's what i'd say god exemplifies. but if you were being sarcastic up there, then this whole discussion is irrelevant, eh? and if we believe god is infinitely wise, that belief should inform our relationship with him. 
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 i wasn't sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to, but i guess the misc is there for a reason. here goes... i am getting married in june to a devout (wisconsin synod) lutheran. i would classify myself as a strong agnostic/weak athiest. this has been a a subject of many discussions between us and is really our only real obstacle. we don't have any real difficulties with the religious differences yet, but i expect they will pop up when we have children. i have agreed to raise the children "nominally" lutheran. that is, lutheran traditions, but trying to keep an open mind. i am not sure if this is even possible though. i feel that that the worst quality of being devoutly religous is the lack of an open mind. just a point, i suppose, if open mind means believing anything can be true or we can't for sure know what is definitely true, i'm happy to not be open minded. if, however, open mindedness means being respectful and tolerant towards other beliefs, respecting the rights and intelligence and wisdom of people of other beliefs and giving equal time to alternative ideas, i try my very best to be open minded. just a thot in passing.... :) anyway, i guess i'll get on with my question. is anyone in the same situation and can give some suggestions as to how to deal with this? we've taken the attitude so far of just talking about it a lot and not letting anything get bottled up inside. sometimes i get the feeling we're making this much bigger than it actually is. any comments would be greatly appreciated. also, please e-mail responses since i don't get a chance to read this group often. :-( not being married, i cannot say too much to you, but from my perspective having mutually exclusive faiths would be a big enough roadblock for me in considering marrying someone. making it much bigger than it is? i suppose that depends on how serious each of you is in your beliefs. lukewarm atheists and christians for whom religion is of nominal importance probly would feel the issue isn't very big. i suppose the more important your beliefs are to each of you, the more important the issue is. 
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 |probably not. but then, i don't pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it. please cite your evidence that he was intending to use it. well, he would be pretty stupid not to, i mean what's the use of spending thousands of $$ on something you won't use? (sorry if i'm stepping on the toes of any members of some "rifle-association" here...). rifles bought for hunting, i can understand, rifles bought for killing people, or for "just keeping" i cannot. just for the record, i am myself a collector of medieval armour & weaponry, and i don't just have it hanging around, i use it... (obviously, only in fencing practice with friends...) well, let me see if i can explain it. it's similar to collecting coins, or stamps, or campaign buttons, or coke bottles, or juke boxes, or model trains, or just about anything else that is collected (and just about everything is collected). in all cases, you might consider it something of an aberration; i mean, what purpose does it serve? not much really; it's just a hobby. the collector yearns for diversity (not much use in having two of the same thing, except for trading/selling it), historical significance (this was the thingy used by so-and-so), technical significance (this is the only one that does such-and-such like this; this is the first one to do it this way), rarity, and so on. some people use their collections, other people do not. as you state, you use your collection. in one sense, this diminishes the value of your collection as the items suffer wear and exposure. in another sense, it can enhance your own enjoyment of your collection. some people collect firearms that they do not use; other people use some or all of the firearms they collect. it's just personal preference. oops, 'personal preference' ... i guess we're not supposed to have that any more, are we? j.baker. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84568">
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 if you would like to understand better the sort of behavior that we saw in connection with the waco tragedy, i'd strongly recommend reading _when prophecy fails_, by leon festinger, henry riecken, and stanley schachter (available as a harper torchbook). it goes a long way towards explaining how a belief system can be so strong as to withstand even overwhelming disconfirmatory evidence. at least, read the first chapter. interestingly, just as the branch davidians had roots in the seventh-day adventist movement, the sdas themselves had their roots in the millerite movement of the first half of the 19th century--a movement that expected the end of the world in 1843, was disappointed when it did not take place, and wound up as a church. that's also how christianity came to be. the immediate return of jesus was expected; when it didn't happen, they formed their own church. 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84569">
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 qpalo@digi.lonestar.org (gerry palo) the danger of anti-cult groups is that while they can expose a lot of deception, they can also become inquisitors. as one who agrees with much of what they say, i am also on the receiving end, and it makes me realize the importance of respecting the freedom of belief of every individual and also of not jumping to conclusions and making accusations based on a priori assumptions about an individual or group. for my money the primary danger of anti-cult groups is that they are every bit as wacky as the groups they oppose and that by and large they have no compunctions about printing lies, half-truths and misleading innuendos as part of their exposes. a recent book on cults i picked up by a "christian" author quite simply mixed in all non-christian religions (except the jews) and various new age groups with various fringe groups of dubious intent and legality. on the other hand, the watchman fellowship does a good service in exposing deceptive practices that are far too common among the groups they monitor. given the record of american christianity, any group that falls into the category of fundamentalist or born-again is automatically into the inquisition business. it is an unavoidable affliction of those who have a proprietary license on the truth (tm). and let's not forget that jonestown and the branch davidians are just as much a part of the christian tradition as the missouri synod lutherans, and may in fact be the massadas of true christian believers. i am far more concerned about the encroachment of overtly christian indoctrination into public schools than i am about yoga classes there. for those concerned with religious freedom without a selective inquisitiorial bent: people for the american way p.o. box 96200 washington, dc 20077-7500 americans united for separation of church & state 8120 fenton street silver spring, md 20910-9978 jack carroll 
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<instance id="talk.religion.misc84570">
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 : [34mand now . . . [35mdeep thoughts[0m : [32mby jack handey.[0m : [36mif you go parachuting, and your parachute doesn't open, and your : friends are all watching you fall, i think a funny gag would be : to pretend you were swimming.[0m as you must know by now there are no escape sequences here (ansi or otherwise). once you enter here, your terminal beomes dumb. there's something significant about all this ... you are in the village. many happy returns! be seeing you! [your ways and means get reign of the tek!] 
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